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Nov. 2, 2015 - Art Bell

02:24:32

Art Bell MITD - Cody Lundin Survival

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	From the high desert and the great American southwest, I bid you all good evening, good
	morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world's 25 time zones.
	Each and every one covered by a blanket by this program, Midnight in the Desert, I'm Art Bell.
	Great to be here.
	We have, but as you know, two rules on the show.
	No bad language, because we have the youngsters listening, and one call per show only.
	Those are the rules.
	It's going to be a really, really, really interesting show tonight.
	So, we'll get to that.
	I'm tempted to, you know, just launch right into it.
	I'm not, though.
	There are a couple of things I want to call your attention to.
	Both are up on my website.
	And there were a little bit worries.
	The first we're calling the Yellowstone story although it is not strictly really exactly a Yellowstone story.
	It's adjacent to, close.
	However there are videos and still photographs of what appears to be A gigantic gash in the ground.
	Now, when I say gash, I mean, you know, it's kind of like you went up to an earthquake fault somewhere and just stared at the, you know, down a long distance as the earth has separated from itself, and that's what it looks like.
	It's like it was ripped apart.
	Now, there are some who say, oh no, it was water coming down from a bluff You make up your own mind.
	You take a look and tell me.
	Now, there was no associated earthquake that was recorded in that specific area.
	And you will see in the video that the gentleman points that out.
	We also have a second photograph I want you to look at.
	And this is sent to us by a listener, who also was a drone operator, I would presume, or a friend of his.
	And it's a drone photograph of a lake But, oh baby, when they take this drone up over the lake and look down on it, it's like you're looking at a lake circle, like a crop circle, except it's a lake circle.
	It's like a petroglyph.
	You take a look, you let me know what you think it is, but it was caught by accident by somebody with a drone.
	As you know, the FCC is moving to make life not much fun for us drone owners.
	There was a very interesting article on theanomalist.com.
	I usually do find one there.
	And this concerns a very long study done on the controversial status of precognition and other anomalous effects, simply known as PSI.
	I know precognition.
	Personally, I know it's real.
	And I would love to learn more about it, and I'm sure we'll find a guest on Precognition.
	Perhaps somebody in the scientific field who can tell us what they think's going on.
	I mean, there's no question about it.
	We're going to be talking to, I can't help myself, Cody Lodeen, in a few minutes, and this is probably worth a discussion with him.
	Whatever you want to call it, this Precognition, It's an instinct, I think, in human beings.
	I'm not sure about that, but that is my best guess.
	It's like an instinct, you know, a feeling you have that something is right or wrong, a feeling that somebody is good or bad when you meet them instantly, that kind of thing, but extended.
	I've had one experience in my life of precognition, so I, you know, that's enough.
	I know it's real.
	Everybody else might not.
	I do.
	And they are studying it scientifically, and it certainly is worth finding out more about.
	Mystery and confusion surrounding the final moments of that Russian jetliner that went down.
	Now, they've been talking all day about the possibility of a missile or a bomb as at least a possibility.
	It could have been a failure, as you know, at near 30,000 feet at cruise altitude, or very unlikely, You know, airplanes just coming apart.
	Yes, the tail had been worked on.
	I know all about that.
	But still unlikely.
	Could have been a bomb.
	And, by the way, ISIS is claiming credit for the downing of that plane.
	Now, the experts they trot out on CNN seem to think that they couldn't get a missile that high, and maybe they couldn't.
	Somebody else points out, well, there's mountains.
	Well, it was well past the mountains.
	So, we'll just have to wait and see, of course.
	After a devastating loss in the 2012 presidential campaigns, the Republican Party entered a period of intense self-reflection, and they emerged, it says, with a firm promise to learn from its mistakes.
	The GOP vowed to avoid prolonged and vicious primaries.
	Well, that's history, right?
	I mean, we know what's going on, and none of that happened.
	Jeb Bush is trying to hit the reset button.
	He's suffering badly in the polls.
	And his new slogan, I don't know, it doesn't excite me.
	See, I sound like the Donald, right?
	It doesn't excite me.
	But his new slogan is, Jeb can fix it.
	Well, really?
	I mean, everything?
	Or just it?
	Whatever it is.
	That's his new slogan, campaign slogan.
	Jeb can fix it.
	And I don't know.
	I wasn't really particularly enamored of the slogan, yet can fix it.
	All right, Cody Lundeen is an internationally recognized professional in the field of primitive living skills, modern wilderness survival, and urban self-reliance training.
	Urban, mind you, with 26 years of hands-on teaching experience.
	Due to his intimate understanding of the physics, Psychology, Physiology of Human Survival.
	He is routinely featured as the consulting expert on real-world emergencies for national and international news outlets.
	He has trained private, corporate, and government agencies, thousands of students, dozens of national and international media sources in outdoor survival, primitive living skills, and urban preparedness.
	So those of you who thought that all the urban people would be out of luck tonight are wrong.
	He will be able to speak to that.
	Now, he'll be coming up in just a moment.
	I want to say one more thing.
	Ted Koppel, interestingly, was on CNN earlier today.
	And it was quite an unusual segment, I must say.
	It turns out That Ted Koppel has taken on the issue of the grid.
	He believes that our internet infrastructure in America, which, you know, he pointed out was originally designed for scientists and professors to talk to each other and exchange ideas and now is in the hands of virtually everybody, wasn't designed to be protected particularly.
	And he says that anybody, meaning nation-states anyway, can bring down our grid completely.
	Just flat bring it down.
	Russia and China, he pointed out, not likely to do it because, well, we can do it too and maybe better.
	So, the mutual assured destruction scenario of that between big nations is unlikely.
	However, We've got Korea, we've got the guys dressed in black in the Middle East, and they don't care about any of that.
	They want everything to come down.
	And he pointed out that if the grid went down for two years, and that's what he thought it would, two years, that in one year, one year of the grid being down, only one in ten in America would survive.
	And I know you're probably sitting out there and going, oh, come on.
	It's just ain't so.
	1 in 10 without electricity couldn't survive?
	Well, it's probably accurate.
	I'm sure it's accurate.
	It may even be undersaid.
	Might be worse than that.
	And I have urged people for years, beginning probably 20 years ago, Just as an experiment, go outside, find the big master switch near your power meter, and turn off the electricity for your house and try and live for a day, two days.
	See how that goes.
	It's an interesting experiment.
	You all might probably not want to try, but if you do, you'll learn a lot.
	Alright, coming up after the break, Cody Lundin.
	And I'm already getting tons of messages, so he's got a lot of fans out there on the internet.
	He did a show called Dual Survival.
	Maybe you saw it on the Discovery Channel.
	I'm Art Bell.
	I'm a woman who can dance, can make a girl laugh, and can make a guy fall in love.
	I'm a woman who can be a girl, watch and see, dig it, dance and see.
	Turn it upside down.
	Love to hear percussion.
	Love to hear it.
	Slow motion just sounds pretty.
	Keep moving to the music, baby.
	Take a walk on the wild side of midnight.
	From the Kingdom of Nigh, this is Midnight in the Desert with Art Bell.
	Please call the show at 1952-225-5278.
	That's 1952.
	Call Art.
	Well, I guess I'll let him get away with his stutter tonight.
	Happens every now and then.
	Alright, to the program, welcome Cody Lundeen.
	Hi Art, thanks for having me on.
	It's great to have you on.
	Let me start out by saying I am a gigantic fan of survival shows.
	I have watched every single episode, not of yours, but of Naked and Afraid.
	So then, earlier today, I got some of your episodes and I binge-watched them.
	So, I know something about it.
	Okay.
	I'm ready.
	I'm going to ask you a couple questions that weren't even down here first.
	One is, in order to get it out of the way, since I have such a paranormal-oriented audience, and you have spent so much time in every kind of wilderness a human could spend time in, My audience would like to know if you've seen anything weird in the wild, and by that they mean anything you dislike, can't explain, or anything that even was paranormal, and of course, Bigfoot.
	No, to be a disappointment to some of your fans.
	I have talked to several people that have seen some bizarre stuff, but never direct an experience for myself.
	Okay, all right, good answer.
	Thank you.
	Now it's out of the way.
	Someone else says, this is all coming from my computer, that you have a very interesting philosophy of Mother Earth.
	Hmm.
	So I wonder what they mean by that.
	I don't know.
	Well, so basically, you know, I teach primitive living skills, modern survival and preparedness, as you mentioned.
	And, you know, I make my living off the planet.
	We all do.
	Not all of us are conscious of that.
	But so I do have, I think, a close association with the earth, which I wish more of us did have, just because of what I do.
	I'm outside a lot, you know, so I'm outside as much as I'm inside, you know, whether that's my homestead or teaching courses or whatnot.
	So what they mean by that, I don't really know what they're getting at.
	But yeah, I'm outside a lot.
	That's a special association.
	You call yourself a hippie?
	No, I don't.
	I think I missed that era.
	I like heavy metal music.
	I don't know many hippies that like that, and I have long hair.
	I've had long hair ever since I was a little kid, but I don't really call myself a hippie, because I don't think that's quite my era.
	Well, I don't know whether I heard it in the show, or they called you that, or someone said, can a hippie and a military guy survive together?
	It came up in the program somewhere.
	Sure, yeah, they like to call me a hippie and a lot of people do that, so.
	And I've referenced that before, but no, I'm hard to pin down.
	You know how it is, you know, judgments and people look at you and they think one thing and it might be another thing.
	Sure.
	You know, so I'm sure you've experienced that in your career and I get the same as well in mine.
	Absolutely.
	When they asked about your view on Mother Earth, I think, you know, I think, and I wondered the same thing as I watched your program.
	You know, you live out in it all the time, and I know that Native Americans have a sort of a view, you know, a worldview about the earth and what she is, and I wonder if part of that is in you.
	I don't know.
	I think it's an interesting question.
	I think a lot of people would feel similar if they spent more time outside.
	And to even have you ask me that question kind of Personifies what's going on, you know, in our modern world.
	A lot of us don't spend a lot of time outside.
	And I'm not saying you have to go out in the wilderness to get refreshed by Mother Nature, for lack of a better term.
	But just, we have our head up, you know, where.
	I mean, I heard you reference before we got on the air together, you know, the Ted Koppel thing.
	Yes.
	And, you know, this is, I know that a lot of your listeners, you know, I want to educate and I'd like Art Bell fans to stay alive.
	And we're hopelessly, you know, confined to technology as great as it is.
	And so that's the point here is we're so disassociated with the natural world and how things really work when they're unplugged, that it's a fascination with anyone who does spend time outside.
	It's become the non norm.
	You know, my grandparents homestead in South Dakota, they literally used the Homestead Act and took Indians land, you know, and had the sod home and the whole nine yards.
	They spent much of their day outdoors, you know, planting in the field, the garden, etc., and about 20% time indoors, and today it's the exact opposite.
	So to really rack your head around that, if people spent more time outdoors and into something that was real and unplugged for a little bit, figuratively and otherwise, All right, all right.
	I want you to understand, I like telling the truth.
	I'm one of those people that you're talking about.
	In fact, I may even personify it.
	I live out here in the middle of the serious desert, Cody.
	Um, I spend most of my time inside, I spend most of my time on computers, I spend most of my time with radio, so I am exactly one of those people.
	Bear that in mind.
	Even though I've got, I've got lots of, uh, I've got 20-year food supply, um, I've got, uh, 20-year batteries, and I've got, uh, uh, solar panels and wind machines and all kinds of things, battery backup when power fails here, I don't even know it in my house.
	It just might blink, that'd be about it, and all the rest of the neighbors are coming out going, hey, how come he's got power?
	So I've done a lot, but not because I'm an outdoor person or I necessarily anticipate a zombie apocalypse.
	What do you see when you look out your windows of your house?
	Well, it depends which window, but I see desert, I see Lots of birds, lots of animals.
	The desert is populated a lot more than people think with life.
	It's kind of a strange life.
	We've got these giant black birds out here that look like they belong in a horror movie.
	What do you mean by, what do I see?
	Well, that's my point, is you are, you know, they're ravens, by the way, black birds, you see, and you are out there.
	Your job is on radio, and thank God it is, because you've been doing it for decades, and I'm super excited to talk to you tonight, because you're like a rock star.
	Kind of, very kind of you, kind of you.
	Well, it's true, it's true.
	So what I'm getting at is when Art Bell looks out most of his windows, he sees nature.
	So I'm not saying you have to be out in it per se, but you are in it.
	At least the box you live in, everyone lives in a box, so to speak.
	It's out in the bush.
	Because you're talking to another desert in Arizona.
	So it's midnight in the desert for both of us.
	So I get that, but my point is that a lot of people are urban based, and that's fine, but you're not.
	Because you're out in Nevada, and I've been in Nevada several times, and you have Just as remote country as we have in Arizona.
	And for those that aren't in this belt, in the Southwest, that's news, right?
	If you go to Connecticut or New Hampshire and whatever, it's not like it is in the Southwest.
	There's not that much wide open space.
	And it's different.
	No, it's so different, Cody, that I've had people come here from New York.
	And they are extremely uneasy.
	I mean, you can stand outside where I live on a clear day and you can see 40, 60 miles.
	You can just see the mountains way, way far away.
	The view is so unobstructed that it actually freaks people from the east out.
	I understand.
	You know, my clients are the same way.
	What also freaks people out is the isolation.
	Because when you're in bush, when you're in deep wilderness, or when you're living in a remote location, which I do, all three of those, it forces you to pay attention to yourself.
	There's no distractions.
	And that's scary for a lot of people.
	So if you talked about a Ted Koppel grid meltdown, The biggest enemies that we face really are between our own ears.
	Well, let me ask you.
	Yes, do you go along with that?
	In other words, Koppel said, studies have shown that after a year, only one out of ten would be left alive.
	Well, I think common sense has shown that we don't know what in the hell we're doing anymore on this planet.
	I see that all the time in my courses.
	You know, so what I mean by that is we become disassociated with what it takes to live.
	We're an advanced quote-unquote civilization that doesn't know where to put the poop if the toilet doesn't work, that doesn't know how to feed ourselves, and that doesn't know where the water is coming short of out of the faucet in the wall.
	So if you took a whole civilization and realized that most of these people in this civilization don't know how to get basic human needs met, would you call that an advanced society or not?
	No, not in the sense that you mean it, of course.
	We're talking survival.
	We're talking non-optional.
	We're talking food, water, thermal regulation stuff we'll talk about throughout the night.
	I'm not talking about accessory stuff.
	What I'm saying is that most of civilization, especially in the U.S., doesn't know how to do those things.
	So we don't know how to take care of our basic needs.
	I know what I've seen on the survival shows.
	Uh-oh, here we go.
	Yeah, I mean, that's all there is.
	I'm trying to be honest with you here.
	You know, I'm not an expert in any one of these areas except, you know, watching.
	And it's fascinating.
	I must say, it is fascinating.
	Talk to me a little bit about before you were on Dual Survival.
	You obviously grew up in a lifestyle that, I don't know, taught you survival, taught I don't have a real sexy story like I wish I was could say I was raised by wolves you know or something but it didn't turn out that way I'm an only kid and my dad was military so we moved around a lot and the only common thing that I had
	Growing up was going outdoors, was being outside.
	So I was outside quite a bit.
	And fast forward through a lot of hellish stuff I put myself through as a youth in basic
	survival training except not the type you would wish on your kids.
	I pitched doing what I do to a bunch of summer camps here in Prescott, Arizona and not one
	of them wrote me back.
	No one gave a damn about survival training or primitive skills or whatever.
	Keep in mind this will be my 26th year in business this coming year.
	So this was back in a time where no one really cared about this sort of stuff.
	And that led to very, very slowly clawing my way to courses that people would enroll in, etc.
	through something called a flyer.
	It was on a piece of paper and you could get pretty colors at the copy store.
	Yes.
	And I would put them on something called a phone booth.
	You probably remember those, right?
	I remember them, yes.
	Yeah.
	And on stores and windows and wherever I could put this colored piece of paper saying, You had to work for your clients.
	I'm at the Original Living Skills School and I'm teaching skills and that's literally how
	it started out Art because there was no Facebook, there was no cell phones, there was no YouTube,
	there was no way to project yourself as something you're not, you know, to be picked up by the
	next network as the flavor of the month survival show on TV.
	You had to work for your clients.
	So there really was a time like that, huh?
	There was.
	And it was a much more historically honest time, as well.
	It was.
	It was.
	I'm sort of convinced, Cody, this is one of my personal things, that as we get older, we get slowly more and more and more disgusted with everything that's going on, the music, the young people, everything that's going on, so that by the time we're finally ready to pass on, it's like, alright, get me out of here, I'm done.
	Well, we hope you have many more decades here doing your show.
	Kind of you.
	But I really mean that.
	I mean, it just seems like a natural thing.
	Older people get a little bit grumpy.
	I know I can be a little grumpy.
	People write to me all the time and say, boy, you were so grumpy last night.
	I didn't think so necessarily, but they thought it.
	So I guess I can be.
	And I know you can be.
	So as we get older, that happens.
	And what's going on around us seems kind of crazy, huh?
	It can be.
	I know you're passionate about radio.
	You have to be, right?
	And I have the same passion for my profession.
	And along with that passion comes a very limited tolerance for BS, which I'm assuming you have as well.
	That's right.
	And I put up with a lot of it.
	I'm sure.
	Sometimes on this program, Cody, I know that I'm getting B.S.
	and I just let it go because it's very entertaining.
	Sometimes I can't stand it anymore and I say to the guest, oh come on, I've had it, this is complete B.S.
	Anyway, yeah, it's happened.
	It's happened.
	So, can we talk a little bit about Even before we get into the TV shows, I want to say something.
	The sickest that I've ever been in my life, Cody, and I mean the sickest I've been in my life, there is just no relief from it, is seasickness.
	My dad had a big, frankly, yacht, big boat, sailboat, and he took me out and I started to get sick and there was no Relief.
	I mean, no relief.
	You toss up all you have, and then you continue to want to toss up what's no longer even there.
	It's that bad.
	And I saw you get seasick.
	Not that badly, but I saw you on a raft in the middle of the Pacific, and you were looking pretty green.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that doesn't really work for me.
	Yeah, I can get seasick pretty easy.
	So that's the only reason I wasn't a Navy SEAL.
	That's a good reason not to be a SEAL.
	Is your B.S.
	meter going off now?
	Not at all.
	Oh, no.
	Not at all.
	You were in the military, or no?
	Oh, God, no.
	No, huh?
	No.
	Dad was.
	I see.
	Yeah, my dad was, too.
	All right.
	Hold it right there.
	We'll be right back.
	This is that longer break I told you about.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Well this is Midnight in the Desert.
	This is the place where we started from.
	Love is good, love can be strong.
	We gotta get right back to where we started from.
	The Day of the Wave.
	Midnight in the Desert doesn't scream calls.
	We trust you, but remember, the NSA.
	Well, you know.
	To call the show, please dial 1-952-225-5278.
	That's 1-952-CALL-ART.
	My guest is Cody Lundeen, and he's a very cool dude.
	And again, I'm going to go back for a second to what Ted Koppel said, and it was that if somebody brings down our grid, it'd be down for two years.
	And he said that one out of ten people ...would be left alive in the United States.
	And we talked about it, but I'm not sure we got an exact answer.
	Do you think that would be accurate, Cody?
	What do we have?
	I think we have like 286 million people in the U.S.
	Isn't that about right?
	Yes, about right, yeah.
	So my math sucks.
	So what is that?
	If Ted Koppel's right, how many people is that?
	We don't have to do the math.
	I mean, it's just... Thank God!
	There's not many people.
	One in ten left alive.
	One in ten.
	I think that's... well, it depends.
	You know, again, you know, because I'm used to these, hey, Cody, you know, and they want this pat answer, you know, as if I'm McDonald's or something, so... All right, well then, just take it this way.
	Would the majority of the Americans be dead before a year went by without power?
	Probably, because of the way things are now.
	You know, if you'd asked this question, like, 50 years ago, It would have been a different answer.
	You are right about that.
	That is kind of what I am getting at with the lack of nature, etc.
	There are a lot of people coming back to simplicity.
	You can imagine the kind of emails you get.
	You can imagine some of the emails I get.
	There are a lot of good things going on and a lot of terrifying things, of course.
	But with people starting to do more with less, the gardening is huge.
	Non-hybrid seeds is going to the roof.
	There's a lot of good things regarding self-reliance and people are being inspired to do more with less.
	And I'm hoping that's more of a, I want to do this, rather than we're scared of zombies do this.
	Because when people do self-reliance and preparedness based on fear, That's a temporary solution, and that never lasts.
	When they do it because they want simplicity and freedom in their life, then that's a lasting process that I can support.
	I start to have organ failure when my internet's down.
	We need to work on you, Art.
	You need to come on a course.
	The course would be survival for me, Cody.
	You should do a show on that.
	Anyway, you don't much like the term, I'm told, survivalist.
	How come?
	The term survivalist has a negative commentation.
	Why?
	Why?
	Eric Frying, the cop killer, is a survivalist.
	We have people blowing up federal buildings.
	They're survivalists.
	So you tell me, Art, how can a word describe someone who blows up a federal building and someone who teaches people how to survive an outdoor survival experience?
	Gone bad.
	I think you need to rethink it now.
	You need to rethink it.
	Survivalist is not a bad word.
	As you portrayed it, you're talking about criminals.
	I'm talking about the word survivalist.
	That's what we're talking about.
	Well, look, even if they were, yeah, but they didn't ruin the term survivalist.
	It's still a fascinating It's a great thing to be and to be able to do.
	I don't feel like they ruined it.
	Let me ask you this.
	You're a survivalist.
	Tell me what you do.
	What do you do, Art?
	You're a survivalist.
	What does that mean?
	Well, in your case, it means you have a profession on TV, if you want it.
	Or you write books.
	Or you teach classes.
	On what, though?
	On what?
	Survival.
	What does that mean?
	Survival.
	Means how you get your internet back up?
	You got me there.
	Okay, so here's my next point.
	Eventually we're going to talk a dirty word, and I know it'll seem like profanity to a lot of people, but it's not.
	It's called credibility and integrity.
	And those things have gone by the wayside.
	So if someone's a survivalist, quote unquote, and just let me finish, if someone's a survivalist, then I would ask them, oh really?
	What do you teach?
	You know, because saying survivalist is kind of like saying tree in the forest.
	Well, is it a softwood?
	Is it a hardwood?
	Is it spring, summer, autumn?
	Is it a good bowwood?
	Can you make fire with it?
	It doesn't mean anything.
	And that's my point, is the word survivalist is used by networks because you don't have to vet it.
	Because it doesn't really have a meaning, it's unvettable, which makes it nice when you hire phony people on TV to portray a survival expert, so to speak, according to them.
	So if someone asks me, one I don't like the term, and I'm telling you why I don't like the term, but they'll ask me, what do you do?
	And I'll say, what do you want?
	Do you want urban preparedness?
	Do you want modern outdoor survival skills?
	Do you want primitive living skills?
	Do you want homesteading?
	We're not all on the same bandwidth.
	There's different stations on the radio.
	It's all the radio, but you know, we could be listening to Heavy Metal or Art Bell, and I want Art Bell tonight.
	It's all the same radio, but they're different stations on the radio, and you'll get a very different experience listening to Heavy Metal than Art Bell.
	Yeah, you're really going to hate my bumper music tonight.
	I like your music, and I dig that guy with the deep voice.
	Is that you?
	No, no.
	I have a fairly deep voice, but he puts me to shame.
	That's Ross Mitchell up in Reno, a very good friend of mine.
	Wow, he's great.
	Oh yeah, absolutely great.
	So, I don't know, I exactly was not, or I guess I was a little unhappy with your being that unhappy with the word survivalist, because yeah, some of the guys who did bad stuff, We're dealing with people's lives, Art.
	I take that seriously.
	It truly doesn't ruin the word.
	The media call them survivalists and that's my point again.
	We're dealing with people's lives, Art.
	I take that seriously.
	Survival instruction deals with whether people live or die based on the advice given.
	There's a time for accuracy and this profession is it.
	And when you have a term that not only deals with acts of domestic terrorism, that can also supposedly define a community college instructor who teaches outdoor survival skills, that's not accurate.
	And it further muddies the water, like a lot of survival shows out there.
	Which ends up killing people.
	We'll talk about your fascination with survival TV.
	You thought it was probably your buddy, but I'm going to be breaking your heart.
	No, it's all right.
	My heart can't stand to be broken about this.
	Originally, I thought survival meant like Survivor on TV and who gets voted off next.
	That was it for me until I ran into Naked and Afraid.
	And oh, by the way, somebody asked on the computer, are you wearing shoes now?
	Of course not.
	Yeah, you never do, right?
	You actually didn't have to do this on the show, but you chose, well, you choose in life, not just on the show, but in life, not to wear shoes.
	Why?
	Well, that's a multi-pronged answer.
	One, I don't like being anyone's you-know-what.
	You can take a very highly trained Special Forces operator and take off their boots and they're worthless.
	You know, if I can take a hundred dollar piece of gear and rip through a million dollars worth of training from the U.S.
	government, there's something wrong.
	All right, can I ask a quick question?
	Sure.
	You had a partner who was like a special forces special guy or something and he one time did take off his shoes and was he next to worthless?
	Yeah, of course.
	Sorry, I had to ask.
	Yeah, I mean, so a lot of Native people, if you travel all over the world, like I have, and you go to some more remote locations, you'll see that going barefoot is kind of normal.
	It's only interesting and weird in our culture, you know, and in most modern cultures.
	But if you get off the beaten trail, a lot of people are going barefoot.
	I also am fascinated with, of course, doing more with less.
	That's my passion and if I don't need to wear shoes why would I?
	I do have sandals that I wear and I have flip-flops in my Jeep because it's not worth being celibate.
	I want to be able to take my sweetheart out to dinner at a restaurant and so they can frown on that unless I know the owner and sometimes I do.
	I like tough feet because it's a huge survival asset.
	Alright, well let me stop you right there and say, for the average tenderfoot person like myself, if I decided I wanted to toughen up, make my feet tough, and at my age I don't, but if I did, if I did, I could go tromping around the desert and we have lots of stuff out here that will turn your feet into shredded stumps of what they were, how long would it take to get tough?
	Well, I'm like your trainer.
	I'm Art Bell's trainer.
	Well, you hit the nail on the head.
	Hanging out in Nevada in the desert is different than walking in the lawn in Connecticut.
	So you don't go to get the Ph.D.
	until you've gone to grade school.
	So I'm not advocating people go barefoot.
	I could care less whether people wear shoes or not.
	I don't care.
	This is just what I do.
	I don't even think about it anymore, just like you don't think about wearing pants.
	I'm assuming you're wearing pants now.
	I am.
	That's a very personal question.
	Why do you wear pants?
	That's how I feel about the shoe thing.
	But if you wanted to train, You'd do it easy.
	You'd start on your kitchen floor and then go out into a lawn.
	The beauty about Arizona and Nevada is it's hardcore.
	If you can go barefoot in Arizona, I've walked over some nasty stuff.
	What fascinates me, even to this day, is I've gone barefoot all over the world, quite literally.
	It's doable, you know, because people do it.
	Obviously, you did it.
	But again, my question is, for me, if I started out and I wanted to get to the point from where I am now, which is zero, to tough feet, we'll call it ten, how long out there walking in the desert?
	Well, again, we're starting slow.
	I mean, callus tissue, I don't have the, you know, I don't know how quick calluses grow.
	Let's say that you could feel definite results within just a few weeks.
	And the amount of pain involved in those definite results would be on a scale of one to ten?
	The pain never ends.
	You know, when you go barefoot in Arizona, you deal with pain.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Well, I think probably anywhere.
	I mean, you go into the jungles and you're barefoot.
	There are other dangers.
	There are.
	And there are dangers.
	And I don't walk like other people walk.
	When you walk barefoot for as many years as I have, You literally walk different.
	You drop down with the ball of the foot.
	Most people strike with the heel.
	There's a book called Born to Run out there which started this barefoot running craze with the Tarahumara Indians in northern Mexico.
	A lot of people strike with the heel first and then with the ball of the foot.
	That's very jarring.
	You know to the human physiology, it's charring to the skeleton.
	I don't walk that way.
	So I've literally, walking barefoot has changed the way I walk biomechanically and also it's changed my awareness level.
	I look where I step because I am barefoot and so I pay attention to where I'm walking and my fascination also is I love to read survival stories and there's a lot of POW stories out there as you can imagine and one of the first things they did is they took their boots.
	Because they knew they couldn't run.
	And I was like, I don't want to be that guy.
	You know, I don't want to be dependent on that small piece of gear as valuable as it is.
	I love footwear.
	It definitely has a place.
	I'm not anti-shoe.
	I'm not anti-boot.
	I'm not like waving a flag, everyone go barefoot and hug a tree.
	I'm not.
	I just like to do more with less.
	And I'm fascinated about what I can get away with on this planet.
	Okay, how much of an issue was that in the show itself?
	In other words, you had partners who did use footwear, and they sort of accused you of being too slow.
	But of course, when you have bare feet, you pay attention to where you're putting that bare foot, so you move a little slower, I take it, right?
	You know, I mean, unless you're running from something, which we're not.
	Oh, come on, it's TV.
	It's TV.
	I've done TV.
	It's nothing but a rush.
	That's all they do in TV and movies is rush.
	You are right.
	And most TV, all TV is produced, and we can talk about that later.
	So as far as me not getting somewhere fast enough, you know, where were we going?
	You know, what was the rush to do that?
	Well, I think their only complaint was it was steamy, you know.
	And so, on the other hand, I have so much respect for you that you did that, that you went barefoot.
	And so, let's jump ahead just a little bit because I can't stand not talking about it.
	I do watch Naked and Afraid, and it does seem to me, Cody, that My God!
	Being dumped off in a jungle, or in Africa, or Nicaragua, or whatever the destination is, absolutely naked, purely in a jungle, my God, is really, really terrifying.
	And even if you don't consider all the possible dangers and things that can happen to your skin, which are many, the bugs generally eat you to death.
	Yeah.
	So how much of a test is it to be completely naked, not just bare feet, bare of it?
	Well, it's a produced show.
	Granted, there's people naked out there, and we can go in as far down this rabbit hole as you want, but really, when all good ideas have left and there's nothing more constructive to bring to the table, have them take their clothes off!
	And that's essentially what's happened.
	I have an idea for a new survival show that I'll share with you.
	You know, it's just you and me, right?
	If you're really serious, I wouldn't do it on the air.
	Someone absolutely is going to steal it.
	Okay.
	Well, I'm going to just play with that thought.
	This is for Discovery and all the networks out there.
	You take a man, you take a woman, you take their clothes off, you put them in the wilderness, and you film them doing you-know-what.
	Oh, I see.
	Doing it.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I think it's a unique idea.
	Pretty original.
	And it's a hell of a lot better than just watching them try to make farmer's sticks.
	All right, but look, I will say this in their defense.
	The nakedness seems to be an issue for maybe the first day.
	And then when they figure out they don't have water, they don't have food, and they don't have shelter, somehow it slips to second and third and fourth and then forgotten finally when they're starving.
	Right.
	Let's talk about Naked and Afraid Butte, Montana in January.
	They're dead.
	Well, they're dead, yeah.
	Right, so those shows and the show Survivor, there's a reason they're always filmed in temperate regions, because the biggest causes of death are lack of thermal regulation, either hypothermia, the body core temperature drops below 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit, 37 degrees Celsius, or hypothermia when it climbs up.
	So when you take away the two biggest causes of death in outdoor survival, You can just have all the time you want sitting under the coconut tree, arguing and bickering and trying to catch the rat with your hair, or whatever.
	Do you see what I'm getting at?
	I do, but I mean, it's still tough.
	I mean, they are starving.
	A lot of them never do catch anything worth any protein at all in 21 days.
	And, you know, 35 pounds, go on, boom.
	What are we learning by this?
	Because any one of us could take a bunch of people with no experience and throw them out in the woods and film it.
	They used to do that in ancient Rome.
	It was called the gladiator days.
	Just let's throw a bunch of tigers and throw a dude out there and see what happens.
	What are we learning from that Art?
	Well, now wait a minute.
	On a naked and afraid, they do go in with some Sorry for the words, survival training of some sort.
	You know, he was in the military, one guy in the military, special forces.
	Sure, we can talk about that later too, about being in the military.
	And usually the girl was in at least the Girl Scouts, you know.
	So, most of the people on TV on these shows have no experience in survival skills.
	And I've dealt with several of them, in more ways than one.
	Including those on Naked and Afraid.
	I had a woman call me from Atlanta, Georgia and she had a very thick accent because she was from Atlanta, Georgia.
	She was going to be on Naked and Afraid and wanted to do that.
	This producer told her that she might want to brush up on her survival skills.
	I enjoyed this conversation so much.
	An employee that takes my calls because I can get some weird calls.
	But I took this one myself.
	I asked this woman, what is your experience ma'am?
	Because she was coming to me and she wanted some training to do this TV show called Naked and Afraid.
	I asked her three times, what is your outdoor survival skills experience ma'am?
	She finally said, well I do nature hikes.
	In other words, none.
	So the key word here is brush up.
	Brush up means go learn it from scratch because you don't know anything about outdoor survival.
	So when you take someone and strip their clothes off, which helps with thermoregulation, it's key to survival, and you put them in a wilderness environment and expect them to live off the land with minimal gear, you're going to the epic PhD of survival training.
	I don't even know if I'm there yet.
	And when you take novices and put them out there, and you have them sign a legal waiver that says they can't sue Discovery Channel if something inept goes on, and you deal with the production company that has no survival skills experience, and a network that has no survival skills experience, then there's going to be some issues.
	Team and the network.
	Okay, well, a lot to talk about there.
	I wonder how she made out.
	I wonder which episode that was.
	Alright, we're going to take a break here.
	Cody Lundeen is my guest.
	He was on Dual Survival on the Discovery Channel.
	I'm sure many of you have seen it.
	I know you have, because obviously many fans are listening.
	From the high desert, a great American Southwest, midnight in the desert, raging in the night.
	It's not radio, but it is what's next.
	To cast your ray of light into the darkness, please call 1952.
	Call Art.
	That's 1952-225-5278.
	Actually, that represents our beginnings.
	nine point two two two five fifty two seventy actually that represents our
	beginnings it is somewhat radio now and uh... probably so
	Hello there, KABC in Los Angeles, right?
	And so many more.
	So, uh, Cody Lundeen is here tonight, and he's obviously a really very cool guy to interview.
	Um, and we were talking for a minute, anyway, about this, uh, this series, Naked and Afraid, not his series.
	Um, both are very controversial in a lot of ways, actually, Naked and Afraid and Duel Survival, which was his, and we'll get to all that, but with respect to Naked and Afraid, I can't help but ask, and everybody wants me to ask, what do you think is fake, and what do you think is real?
	For, I'll give you an example, and you can knock it down.
	They've been starving for 20 days, I believe, and tomorrow is extraction day, but they're sitting there, starved half to death on the ground, And suddenly a deadfall goes off and they get lucky and a rabbit just made it in, or some bird or whatever, just made it in and tripped the deadfall.
	And they get the protein they need on day 20 to make it out alive.
	Now, they wouldn't go that far, would they, as to put a bird in a trap?
	Of course they would.
	All TV is produced.
	That's why you have television producers.
	Right?
	So if you could film something verbatim and actually film something completely accurate in the field or the city or wherever, and then you'd still have this thing called an edit bay with an editor that's going to go take that footage and tweak it to whatever the network wants.
	The network has something called a big fat wallet.
	It pays everyone and they're dictating what goes on behind the scenes.
	They're the ultimate authority or no one gets paid.
	Right?
	I don't care what survival show you watch, all television shows are produced and some things are done for real and some things are not.
	I mean, on Dual Survival when it rained, we didn't predict that.
	You know, it's not like we caused it to rain or cause some certain things to happen, but I have real low tolerance.
	I don't watch TV.
	I've never even seen my show.
	Really?
	You know, why would I watch someone else's show?
	Yeah, I don't listen to my own shows either.
	Really?
	No, I don't.
	Huh.
	I don't.
	So, you know, I've worked in TV a long time, you know, since the mid-90s.
	I had one of the first survival shows on Discovery in 2003, pre-Lestroud, pre-Edward, you know, etc.
	So I've been behind the camera.
	In front of the camera, I've produced, I've written, I've directed.
	You know, so I know all sides of this lens.
	And one of the reasons I chose to do Dual Survival was one, it seemed less BS.
	And keep in mind, I got the job in 2009.
	And we started filming in January of 2010.
	A lot has changed since then.
	And I assumed a discovery had credibility.
	At one point they did.
	Now their claim to fame is having some idiot in black spandex try to shove his face down a snake's mouth.
	So they've degenerated into that.
	But Dual Survival at the time was kind of one of the earlier survival shows.
	I took the show because I was getting paid, because I'm a professional.
	I get paid for my work.
	I took the show because I could travel the world and I could learn and teach survival skills.
	It was an awesome opportunity to do that.
	I took the show to directly counter some of the nonsense that was out there on other survival shows because I was tired of having my students come to my courses and ask me well can't you drink your pee or whatever it is and there's there's a lot of survival shows here's what you need to remember Art about this when you watch television You're in the low alpha waves.
	That's what TV induces, low alpha.
	And that means a relaxed state and suggestibility.
	So that's why commercials soften people up.
	That's why you buy the Clorox or whatever.
	So TV is all about images.
	The reason I put the crazy cartoons I have in both of my books is because I know when people are really scared.
	When that sympathetic nervous system kicks in and the epinephrine dumps in the body and
	all complex and fine motor skills go to hell.
	They are not going to remember what I have written.
	They are going to remember my illustrations in my books.
	So when you watch television shows, when you watch survival TV shows by a network with
	no survival experience, by a production company with no survival experience, by most hosts
	with no survival experience and you are in that alpha state and you are susceptible to
	the training, to the imagery, you are being fed BS.
	And the problem with that is when people are in crisis situations If they're ever in a real survival situation, what comes to the forefront of their memories are those images they've seen in that suggestible state on TV.
	What I'm getting at is death.
	Okay?
	It's not a joke.
	My profession is of keeping people alive.
	Yes.
	And I take it very, very seriously.
	And when I see networks making a mockery out of my profession, Like, imagine if they did that with radio, you'd be pissed off.
	I'm pissed off about it, because once I have to pick up the pieces with my clients, and to some of the survival programming has killed real people that have thought what they were watching on television was real.
	Have people died on reality TV survival shows?
	They had that helicopter that went down.
	Well, three people died on a Discovery Channel show with my ex-co-host.
	You know, three people were killed in L.A.
	And then I think nine people were killed, I think it was in France, on a TV survival show they had there.
	And just wait, there's more coming.
	That's why Discovery has no contract.
	You can't sue them if something goes wrong.
	Well, if I were Discovery, I'd have that in the contract, too.
	I understand that, but you know, there's...
	We're dealing with risk here.
	We're dealing with gross negligence is what we're dealing with.
	Alright, let's come back to that.
	I want to close the chapter on the lady who came to you that we were talking about.
	What did you do with her?
	Did you teach her, help her at all to prepare for Naked and Afraid?
	I said, you know, call me back.
	She said she was going to talk to a producer and of course I never heard from her again, which is typical.
	Really?
	Oh yeah.
	Um, and why would that be?
	I mean, you would think that the show would want her to develop some skills.
	You'd think that, wouldn't you, Art?
	You would, yes.
	And that's what I told her.
	So you think she talked to the producer and the producer said, ah, you don't want to do that, or what?
	I have no idea.
	I told her that she should know the bioregion she's going to, because jungle survival is different from desert survival, which is different from cold weather survival, etc.
	And she said, oh yeah, yeah, that makes sense, Cody.
	And hell yes, it makes sense.
	But that's not what they're after about making sense.
	Why have competent people when you can get incompetent people to cause more drama?
	Because that's good for ratings.
	This isn't about education.
	This is about exploitation.
	And I got a problem with that, because it deals with people's lives.
	Imagine if we had a bunch of shows about doctors, and that was the big craze!
	Shows about doctors!
	Except they weren't really doctors on the TV show, and they were teaching your family how to do surgery.
	You walk in the garage and it's your son cutting open your, you know, your daughter or whatever.
	You know, do you think the AMA would have a problem with that?
	Probably.
	God.
	Listen, you mentioned exploitation, right?
	To be fair, it is exploitation on both sides.
	In other words, maybe you've got some lady who wants her face on TV.
	Maybe you've got some lady who just wants to do it for the adventure.
	Plus, she's probably getting paid pretty decently.
	I have no idea how well they're paid, but probably money could be an issue.
	So, for you, for example, I mean, Cody, when you were on the TV show, even though I understand the ethical bar was higher, You were exploiting them for travel, for whatever fun you had, and certainly for money.
	So it was a joint exploitation in a way, right?
	No, I don't agree with that at all.
	I was an employee.
	I was doing my job that I was hired to do.
	Are you exploiting your producer because she produces for you?
	In the strictest sense, I guess, yeah.
	I mean, we pay her well.
	But, so, life is sort of an exploit of sorts of people of people, and you can still be ethical and still realize and call it exploitation.
	It is a little bit.
	I mean, would you have done it for no money?
	No.
	I make my living teaching survival skills.
	I expect to be paid for my work, like most professionals do.
	There you go.
	All right.
	Well, you know, it depends, I guess, on your definition of exploitation.
	You're talking about much more serious stuff in the way they produce... I'm talking about your life, Art.
	I'm talking about my profession deals with whether people live or die.
	Right.
	So it's pretty serious.
	So when you take a profession like the medical profession and you exploit it with phony drama and out of context phony reality television that causes people to die who believe that, that's wrong.
	Well, where would you put what you did on TV on Dual Survival?
	Would you put it in that realm or is it bars and bars above that?
	I am a professional survival instructor and so I went on an outdoor survival skills show as an instructor to teach people and I did the best of that to my ability and I tried to keep it as clean as possible even though there was a daily battle.
	I know you did.
	The producers wanted to do other stuff.
	Drama.
	They want drama.
	Right.
	And I understand that.
	It's not like I just fell off the cabbage truck.
	I understand that television is television.
	But there's a line in the sand and I have a very, very strong line in the sand.
	My first allegiance is to your listeners.
	My first allegiance is to my students.
	And if you have a survival instructor who is lying, who is fraudulent, who is causing unnecessary risk, there's a problem there.
	Because a real survival instructor deals with mitigating risk, not creating risk.
	Right.
	And so even though I was pushed into certain things on dual survival that it's like, ah, how are we going to do this?
	If I don't with the storyline, I really, really tried.
	They didn't like me very much because what they want is a person they can tell what to do and they'll do it.
	Because people had a hard time with me on the show, because I would not budge with integrity, and I would not budge with safety.
	And I always will be a pain in the butt about those two things.
	I hear you.
	Well, I certainly have ethical standards, too, for what I do here on the air.
	Okay, so, when they did this, what you call, defamation episode, and I saw it, by the Uh, and they depicted you, uh, your partner at that time was trying to trap a snake's head, uh, with a forked stick.
	And, uh, you really got a kick out of it.
	I mean, you were laughing.
	You probably laughed until your ribs hurt.
	I've done that a few times.
	It's, it's really cool.
	I don't know, it's just something that gets you.
	What happened?
	It was absurd, is what happened.
	I mean, I'm from, you're a Nevada guy.
	Yes.
	I'm an Arizona guy.
	So we have 13 different species of rattlesnakes in Arizona.
	We have the most species of rattlesnakes of any place in North America.
	We have the Massasauga, We have the Mojave Rattlesnake, we have the Prairie Rattlesnake, we have the Sidewinder Rattlesnake, we have the Speckled Rattlesnake, we have the Twin-Spotted Rattlesnake, we have the Tiger Rattlesnake, we have the Ring-Nosed Rattlesnake, we have the Western Diamondback Rattlesnake, we have the Black-Tailed Rattlesnake, we have the Arizona Black Rattlesnake, the Western Rattlesnake, and the Rock Rattlesnake.
	So when I see someone who's incredibly adept at handling a snake, I thought it was funny.
	Really funny.
	It went on for a while, so we're sort of jumping ahead.
	This is the episode, folks, where Cody was going off the program, and that's a story in itself, and they made a program that kind of made him look bad, and he calls it the defamation episode.
	You know, you're going to get... Cody's then going to probably go on to another series somewhere, or not, and then somebody else is going to come along and replace him, and so you have to make the outgoing look bad and the incoming look good, right?
	Yeah, and the reason, it was literally defamation.
	I've never seen the episode, of course, but I've had people explain it to me.
	You know, we can talk about the context if you want to, but I had an attorney send discovery of cease and desist for defamation.
	I knew what they were going to do.
	They knew what they were going to do.
	They ignored my cease and desist.
	And so as far as I'm concerned, that was all done with malice because they knew exactly what they were doing.
	Well, you know, you said it yourself, you can go into an edit room and you can make anybody look correct, however you want them to look right.
	And that's the real danger.
	And that's a, That was dangerous.
	Even when I did everything that I knew I should do on that show as a professional in my field, God help me when the editors in New York City got done with it, right?
	None of these people had any outdoor survival skills experience.
	But the reason that episode came about is Discovery asked me three times to lie to my fan base when they fired me.
	And I was fired.
	I did not quit.
	I was fired.
	That's a whole story in itself.
	They finally realized, I think a few weeks later, and called my entertainment attorney and said, they finally realized, well, how in the hell are they going to explain that Cody's gone?
	This just dawned on them a few weeks later.
	And they asked my entertainment attorney, would Cody like to do another episode?
	And he can say that he quit so he could pursue his Aboriginal Living Skills school.
	And my first answer was something I can't say on the air, because of your number one rule.
	Thank you.
	And then they called again, and they asked again, is Cody sure he doesn't want to essentially lie to his fan base?
	Did that thing you said end in you?
	Pardon me?
	Did that thing you say end in you?
	No, yourself.
	Okay.
	The middle word rhymes with cockypuck.
	I've got it.
	And then they called a third time.
	and asked me to lie to millions of people to cover their you know what.
	And of course they were going to pay me thousands of dollars to do it.
	And so you have a network that has zero, zero thoughts about having me lie to my fan base.
	And I want nothing of that.
	And so that's how that episode came about because they had to explain how Cody went away.
	I wasn't willing to lie for them, and that's how I got treated.
	It's really sad.
	Yeah, it is.
	It is.
	I've been through some episodic things with networks myself.
	You've never been screwed by a big corporation, have you, Art?
	Oh, Cody, you didn't do any research on me at all, did you?
	Listen, let's get a kick out of it, like the snake.
	So let's return to this.
	What would you consider to be the most challenging location to go into with minimal In other words, the most challenging, I guess, you've been
	in them all, been all over the world.
	What was the hardest?
	The hardest situation to go to, the hardest environment to go to is the one that lacks
	the most resources.
	And you and I both know which area that is.
	And I understand about the Ravens and the Gamble's Quail and all the stuff you have
	crawling around Nevada.
	Oh yeah.
	But water's life.
	Agua es la vida.
	So when you take away water from the equation, you take away the flora and you take away the fauna.
	And people survive on something called resources.
	So any place on the planet that lacks resources is ultimately the hardest place to survive in.
	For the gringo like me or for native people.
	So usually that points to deserts.
	No problem here.
	We have a Walmart.
	Exactly.
	You're good to go.
	So you think the desert.
	Absolutely.
	Well, then there's the ocean, too, just because we don't breathe water.
	The ocean is totally rich in resources, but it's the problem where we're not water-based people.
	We live on land.
	So deserts is number one.
	It's a resource game.
	It's resources.
	Again, it depends on where you are on the planet and what season it is.
	If there's a seasonality whatsoever, the acorns are on or they're not.
	And there's no free lunch, pardon the pun.
	The more I know about survival skills, primitive skills, to define this, so we're not calling a tree a tree, the more I realize I don't feel like I know what in the hell I'm doing.
	There's so much to know and learn.
	I'm just amazed at all of our ancestors.
	It's amazing we're here.
	You know, when you go over to Africa, and you're out in the bush, and you think just a couple hundred years ago, there's people walking around with sharp sticks, it's like, how in the hell did anyone survive out there?
	Everything wants to eat you.
	You know, there's danger at every turn, and a lot of it was the same here in North America, you know, with the grizzly bear and whatever.
	I have a profound respect for Native peoples.
	They're my heroes.
	No, Africa's scary.
	Africa's scary.
	I was an African.
	Uh, getting in between a mama and, uh, her baby elephant.
	And, oh man, uh, let me tell you how fast elephants can move when they want to.
	It was scary.
	Our instructor, or guide, just told everybody, run in different directions.
	Everybody is on their own.
	Good luck.
	Get behind a tree.
	That was it.
	And we all ran.
	It was a mama and a baby?
	Yeah, she charged.
	Yeah.
	God, it was scary.
	Have you ever been around a horny elephant?
	One in must?
	No.
	Yeah.
	No.
	Don't.
	No.
	That was enough for me, trust me.
	I ran.
	I got behind a tree.
	I got lucky.
	None of us got killed.
	So anyway, there's some rough spots on Earth, but you would say deserts, as a rule, or the ocean.
	And in both cases, Cody, the one first thing you gotta have is water, right?
	Yeah, well the one first thing we've got to have is oxygen.
	That's why I put the ocean up there, right?
	Because drowning sucks.
	It depends on the situation, Art.
	I'm really excited to be on your show because one of my great desert survival instructors, my desert survival instructor is a guy named Dave Gansey.
	Dave Gansey was over with the first Bush war and was actually Richard
	Marcinko from Red Cell, Field Team 6, took his desert survival course.
	Dave Gance is a real gentleman.
	He's in his mid-70s now.
	He's like my dad, my desert dad.
	And he's an amazing guy.
	And when I used to ask him questions, I went to the library, saw him in the paper, this
	This was like in the early 90s.
	And I latched onto him at the public library.
	He thought I was some homeless guy, and I was like, you've got to teach me what you know in the desert, and he did, and he had this term, variables.
	He would always use this word, variables, and it used to drive me crazy.
	I was like, Dave, just give me the damn answer.
	I don't want to hear your variables, and now I understand what he means.
	So when you ask me a question, Water is the most important thing, right Cody?
	Well, Art, it depends on the context.
	No, I didn't say most important, I said first.
	First, okay.
	You're out with a t-shirt and shorts, they're wet, and it's snowing, and you're up in the mountains in Nevada.
	Is water a priority?
	All right, the variables.
	You're going to get me with the variables.
	You're right, of course.
	I am, and that's what's important about my profession, and that's what's so lacking on television.
	They don't give a damn about the variables, and they don't understand the variables, and it's hurting people.
	It's a disservice to people.
	And I'm hoping to clear some of that up on your show.
	Okay.
	So you have to be very deliberate.
	Is it an FM or AM?
	Is it a rock station or easy listening?
	Is it talk news?
	Is it Fox News?
	Is it CNN?
	You know, what is it?
	We know it's radio, but what in the hell is the intention of the station?
	That's important.
	Sure.
	It is, although I'm perfectly happy to be played on a music station.
	So you sound Really bitter about your reality TV experience and about reality TV in general, beyond even where I thought you might be.
	You're very bitter.
	And I've experienced that as well, Cody, with another corporation, and I won't go into that, but I get it.
	I get it.
	But you're really still in a pretty bitter stage, huh?
	I'm in a passionate stage.
	You know, I can't say that I've moved on completely because when you're defamed internationally, when they keep running the same episode and it never ends, yeah, that sucks, right?
	But what I'm trying to do, anyone who's been my student knows how I teach and I'm very passionate about how I teach and I don't mince words because I'm dealing with people's safety.
	Oh, I can hear that.
	Yeah.
	So yeah, I'm on your show and you're asking me questions and I'm answering them with passion
	and yeah, I'm pissed off at that network that purposely defamed me when that network has
	hired so many people who are phony instructors.
	When they get a real one, they treated them real bad.
	And I don't have a lot of tolerance, but I think that's unprofessional and tacky.
	So you must have, for the most part, considering what they need for a TV production and what
	you're trying to give the people and do on the show, you must have found a way to sort
	of live with that divide in thinking.
	It's a good thing.
	Yeah, the season one was awesome, and then season two I found out about Dave Canterbury's fraud to be on the show, and it really went downhill from there.
	That was the start of the troubles.
	Okay, to explain, Dave, wasn't it something about his, was it his military record or something?
	Yeah, it was his military record and it was his survival skills experience record, or lack thereof.
	Oh, okay.
	Well, you would have been the one to experience the second category, to be sure, his lack of experience in survival.
	Was that really apparent to you?
	Did you have to cover up?
	Dual survival is flawed in the get-go because being in the military doesn't make you an outdoor survival expert.
	Being in the military means you're in the military.
	So being a plumber doesn't make you a good electrician.
	They're two separate professions.
	So the context, which I think is important, you have the intention, you have the context of something, which defines the content of something.
	And this is what I go through with every custom course.
	I have a client that says, I want to learn survival skills.
	Well, that's like saying tree to me.
	So what do you mean?
	We go down the rabbit hole.
	So the show was flawed from the get go because, you know, if you had a show called dual military, And one person had no military experience.
	How can you have a fair compare and contrast?
	And that's what it's supposed to be about.
	So I knew Dave didn't have a lot of experience.
	Dave's experience was he spent a year and a half making home movies in his backyard.
	And at that time I had 20 years of experience with my school teaching real people in real wilderness and work being compared as equals in an edit room in New York City.
	Is that fair?
	No.
	Did I eat a lot of crow?
	Yes.
	Was I willing to do that?
	Yes.
	Because I can control myself, and I knew that I could teach, instead of 12 clients at a time, millions of people, I could teach, no, don't drink your pee, don't do this, do it this way, and it made a real difference.
	And I'm really, really happy I did the show because of the feedback I've gotten from fans, especially kids.
	One of my biggest fan bases, Art, I know you mentioned kids before we were on air.
	We have young people that listen to this show, yes.
	Yeah, I had the most fan mail I had was from five to nine year old little girls who watched the show and they were so turned on and they told me how they catch frogs too and they go barefoot and they go hiking with their dad and I had families call me up They would go camping for the first time because they watched the show.
	We had grandmothers watching the show with their grandkids.
	It was supposed to be a demographic of like 18 to 35 year olds, male of course.
	That's the demographic Discovery was shooting for.
	But it was so much more than that.
	And so there's a lot of crappy things that happened to me for sure.
	But it did a lot of good, and I'm glad I was on the show, at least until the drama started, and I had a blast on season one.
	It was my dream job, Art, that turned into a nightmare.
	You know, but that was just a pure lack of leadership and a lack of integrity, which can destroy anything, and you know that.
	You've been around the block.
	I have.
	I have.
	Is it true, trying to lighten the moment for a second, that you're the only person in Arizona with licensed catfish, actually, with your hands?
	I believe so, yes.
	No kidding.
	A license?
	It is illegal, yeah.
	I think they call it literally a license.
	It was a scientific collection permit, because I am talking to you now from my office at Yavapai College, where I've taught survival skills for 21 years.
	And they treat me really well, and so I continue to teach for them.
	And yeah, so on these courses with the schools, I have a permit to catch fish with my hands.
	All right, um, excellent.
	I love a frank interview, and we sure are getting that.
	My guest is Cody Lundeen.
	He was, uh, for, I think, four seasons on Dual Survival on the Discovery Channel.
	And, uh, he sounds a little upset.
	Passionately upset.
	Passionately bitter.
	Want to take a ride from the high deserts and the great American southwest?
	This is Midnight in the Desert, exclusively on the Dark Matter Digital Network.
	To call the show, dial 1-952-CALL-ART.
	That's 1-952-225-5278.
	Well, alright.
	Suddenly I get it.
	Sometimes during the course of an entire program, I don't get it.
	I'm remembering Blanche when I say that.
	But tonight, I get it.
	And it took this long.
	And I was thinking, boy, Cody sounds like a really angry, bitter guy.
	And then I heard the echoes.
	You see, Cody and I come from completely different worlds.
	Cody Lundin is a primitive skills expert.
	I don't know.
	It's hard not to use the word survival.
	But he thinks the word is ruined.
	So I get it, all of a sudden.
	And I can remember being in the exact condition he's in, and I was in it for a very, very long time.
	I used identical words, actually, involving the word yourself, as part of a phrase, with a network in the past.
	In fact, a couple of them.
	And so I get it.
	I really do.
	And I had the same kind of Absolute... I guess anger, you know, anger is not probably the right word.
	It is.
	I was angry.
	Really, really angry.
	Many of you know that.
	Many of you who have listened to me for decades know my history with networks and big corporations, right?
	So no need to go into all that, but I remember when I was that angry, as angry as Cody, as you hear in his voice tonight when he talks about it.
	I have In essence, soothed that to some degree in myself, it can still come back.
	Because it's like part of my soul now or something.
	So, all of a sudden, I get it.
	Even though we're in completely different worlds in one way, we're in the same world in another way, Cody.
	So, I so totally get it.
	Here's what I would ask, I guess.
	Going forward, If you were to do a show, how about the idea of doing sort of what I finally ended up doing after the second bad experience?
	And by that I mean saying, screw you everybody, I'm going to take a camera out.
	I know this idea has been taken already, but I'm going to take a camera out to areas where I can show and teach people how to survive and do it all on my own and just sell it to some network.
	Are you asking me if I'm interested in doing that?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I'm already doing that.
	Really?
	Oh, yeah.
	I mean, that's what it comes down to.
	When you go through what you and I have gone through with corporations, and you're at a more angry stage than I am right now regarding this, I did that.
	I just said, the hell with it, man.
	I'm going to go do it myself the way I want to do it and the way I think it ought to be done.
	And that's what I think is cool about you, you know, and we do have a lot in common.
	And the cool thing about technology is you can do that.
	Art Bell can say, you know, screw that, you know, I'm tired of X, Y, and Z. And with technology, you can do your own thing.
	And I can too, through this thing called streaming.
	You know, because cable is a dinosaur.
	Cable are rolling newspapers, and they know that.
	I know a lot of television executives, and they're all nervous because of things like Hulu and Amazon Prime and Netflix.
	And pretty soon the kids of tomorrow will be going, cable what?
	And that will be like a rotary phone.
	And the cool thing about that, as you know, because you're doing it, and I'd love to talk with you, off the air about how you're doing that, is it allows all
	these super creative people to not get blocked by these executives at a round table and
	they can do what they want to do.
	And with that there's loads of junk, of course, that'll be out there.
	But then the talent can rise to the top and the people with the real passion and vision or whatever.
	So absolutely, I'm doing my own thing.
	That's not common knowledge.
	I guess it is now.
	The cookies are still in the oven and I will do a show that is like you've never seen before.
	And we're doing a television show like television used to be.
	It'll not be a phony reality show.
	It'll be a good old fashioned scripted TV show.
	You know, with a musical intro and the whole bit, like TV used to be.
	And it'll be, of course, entertaining because any good instructor or any good educator is a natural entertainer.
	You have to be to keep people's attention in the classroom.
	So in a sense, I've had live Nielsen ratings for 25 years.
	I know what keeps my students engaged and I know what keeps them not engaged.
	So I have a distinct advantage over networks because, one, I know my profession very well and I also am a teacher so any teacher knows to keep the students attention they have to be entertaining so this show will be highly educational very entertaining and completely out of the box and it was pitched to networks and they all refused it because quote it was too out of the box for TV and so here we have this sameness of monoculture of you know how it is you know this has worked so let's just do
	You know, Friday the 13th, 10, or whatever it is.
	But I'm super excited to do the Art Bell thing.
	And whether a network picks it up, that's groovy.
	But it will already be encased in stone about me doing my thing how I want to do it.
	Really, Art, it was healing.
	It was a cathartic product.
	Within weeks after being fired, I was already making sets, constructing sets, because it was the way that it was helping me cope with the real damage that that network did.
	I enjoy the process immensely, like I know you do.
	You're passionate about radio like I am about survival skills.
	And I'm so happy that we both have the opportunity to, you know, Art Bell can be Art Bell, dammit, you know, and he can do his own thing, you know, on his land in Nevada, and I can do my own thing.
	You bet.
	And just five or ten years ago, that's not a possibility, Art, and you know that, you know.
	No, but here's what you can do.
	I mean, the hell with the networks.
	You don't really need them.
	What you can do is, as you point out, Just, I don't know, have a good web presence somewhere and have a subscription service to what you're going to sell and stream it and you'll do just fine.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, because you're a big inspiration for me because you're, you know, it's like Art Bell is like doing his own thing, you know, and you're a radio legend, so it's inspiring.
	You're inspiring to a lot of people.
	In my situation or not, just have something to share, but feel this oppressive grip of these six-pack guys sitting at a table wearing suits deciding what America watches.
	Nonsense.
	There's no more of that.
	There's no more of that.
	That's a dead paradigm, and I'm glad it is.
	Well, it's a dying paradigm.
	It's not gone yet, but it's dying.
	You're right.
	You're right.
	I'm sure of that.
	It's dying.
	And a lot of things are changing around us.
	I mean, the world is changing.
	Look, AM radio stations, FM radio stations, I don't know how long they're going to be around.
	AM will be the first to go, if it's not going already.
	And much as I love it, I mean, I've been in it all my life, but my eyes are open.
	I can see what's going on.
	When was the last time you saw somebody trotting down the street with a transistor radio jammed in their ear?
	Mm-mm-mm-mm, doesn't happen anymore.
	What they've got now is iPhones strapped to their sides and little headphones.
	And so it's a different... the world has changed.
	So you're saying it's the same with the radio stuff as it is with cable and network TV?
	Of course, of course.
	Yeah, of course.
	Sure.
	It's just, you know, fortunately for somebody like yourself or myself, we are the talent.
	So it doesn't matter, ultimately, how we get delivered to receptive eyes or ears.
	They'll always be away.
	It's going to be tough on the people who own the hardware.
	Big AM stations and FM stations now.
	Tough on them.
	It's going to be tough on cable.
	It's going to be tough on everybody.
	It's going to be tough on DirecTV.
	It's going to be tough on everybody.
	But that doesn't mean that you can't get your show to people and I can't get my show to people.
	We're the talent.
	There's always a way, just a different tube to send it down, you know?
	Right.
	And thank God for that.
	Yeah, thank God.
	Right.
	So how much can you talk about or can you not talk about?
	Probably you can talk about it, right?
	What you're about to do?
	No I can't.
	I'm sorry.
	So I'm sorry, you know, I just needed to, I wouldn't have ever brought it up unless
	it came to a natural bringing it up because you segwayed into it, but the cookies are
	This industry is toxic.
	I know, I know.
	And so, yeah, so you had your two-year hiatus.
	I did a little research on you, and you were planning the whatever, and so am I. That's right, and so exactly the same thing, and I had to keep my mouth shut, too.
	And it's hard, because I love to talk.
	You know, I'm on the radio for X number of hours every night, right?
	And I'm excited about something, and I really want to talk.
	And I have to pin my own lips shut.
	I know.
	I know.
	Believe me, I know.
	Oh, well then you're giving us a lot to look forward to then, actually.
	I hope so.
	And even if my show sucks, it'll teach you how to stay alive.
	You know, because I'm producing the content, I'm writing the content, I'm directing the content, so I'm editing.
	I literally have an edit bay and I've taught myself to edit.
	I have people that are helping me in the biz that shall remain nameless that believe in what I'm doing.
	You know, so it'll be as professional as I can do it, but I'm offering real value, and I'm super excited, Art, you know, because not only has it been a healing process, this show that's in my head, it's been in my head for 14 years.
	Well then, folks, this is actually breaking news that you're hearing tonight, then.
	I didn't know we'd get here, but I clearly see how we got here.
	Breaking news.
	Yeah.
	And I understand you can't say more.
	How about, can you talk about timelines?
	In other words, without talking about what the show will be, when might we expect to be able to see it?
	I don't know and if I knew, I know that there's a lot of people out there and this is a wonderful chance for me to market this and I really appreciate you I don't want to put myself in a box because it's so labor intensive because it's me and a couple other people.
	On Dual Survival there was massive amounts of crew and 15 people back in New York City.
	I'm probably like you are.
	I'll call myself anal retentive because I am.
	And I want this thing done right.
	And so I have my hands in every little bit of the pie, and that takes time, because there's only one of me.
	I'm finding myself, I can't delegate now, because all the creative stuff is coming out of my head, so I really can't say, hey, so-and-so, can you write a script about X, Y, and Z?
	I can't do that, so it's taking a lot of time.
	We've been shooting for quite some time.
	It's not a new concept, but really I've told you more than I've told anyone else.
	You and your tens of thousands of billions of listeners.
	I would love to tell you about the show later on, and I think you'll dig it.
	Let's put it this way.
	I don't do drugs and alcohol.
	That wasn't the case in the past.
	Listen, I so, so, so get what you're doing.
	Listen, I do a radio show, and as far as I know, I'm the only one in the industry.
	That makes sense.
	Yeah.
	So, but if you took a whole bunch of acid and sat down in a chair and turned on the
	TV and watched a survival show, you'd be watching my show, Art.
	All right for you.
	Listen, I so, so, so get what you're doing.
	Listen, I do a radio show and as far as I know, I'm the only one in the industry.
	I run my own board.
	I play my own music.
	I pick my own music.
	I answer my own phones.
	I don't have a call screener.
	There's nobody else in the room with me ever.
	I don't have, you know, anybody.
	I do the whole thing from here.
	It's all in front of me.
	And I wouldn't have it any other way.
	Nobody else can do it the way I can do it because of the rhythm of it or something.
	I don't know.
	Well, you're Art Bell.
	Well, you're Cody Ledeen.
	So I expect that what we're going to get from you is going to be innovative and Lundin special.
	Yeah, yes, yes, you will.
	That's what you'll get.
	And if you don't like the context of how I'm presenting the information, you won't be able to argue with the content because I'm basing it on sound physics, physiology and psychology.
	All right.
	Most people these days live in cities.
	They're urban dwellers.
	And I guess you're going to try and reach out to that group as well.
	Because that's most people.
	I mean, you know, even if you want to talk ratings, if you want to tell people in cities how to stay alive, you're sending out a very important message, right?
	Absolutely, and I have two books, as you know, 98.6 Degrees, Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive, was my first book, and that's based on modern outdoor survival.
	What happens if Art sat with a Jeep in the desert and it drops an axle or whatever and art has to survive in a short-term
	emergency typically three days or less. My second book, When All Hell
	Breaks Loose, is just what you're talking about. It's a book on urban
	preparedness and you can look at the demographics. I mean I haven't checked with my
	publisher in two years.
	When All Hell Breaks Loose had sold well over a hundred thousand copies and it
	was by far the better seller than 98.6 degrees because it dealt with an urban
	population.
	And so you hit the nail on the head, and yes, I think urban preparedness is important just because of the demographics of it.
	I think 90% of us live in metro areas, and that's to be expected.
	So yeah, I'm passionate about that.
	What I'm also passionate about is just self-reliance in general.
	You know I adore living off the grid but that doesn't mean you have to be out in the bush to live off the grid so whether it's composting or recycling or you know we're not sustainable on this planet and that troubles me because when you have something that's not sustainable it means there's an end point and we keep kicking the can down the road to you know your grandkids and your great-grandkids and sometimes that can is going to stop And so I'm very passionate about trying to do more with less and being as comfortable as possible.
	And what I mean by that is I'm not advocating the hippie role in the dirt and eat grubs.
	You know, people are not willing to get dirty and eat bugs, and I don't expect them to.
	But my homestead, for example, I've designed it to cooperate with nature.
	It heats and cools itself.
	It ventilates itself.
	Oh, somebody wanted you to describe your Arizona place.
	Apparently quite a lash up there in Arizona, eh?
	Quite a what?
	Lash up.
	What is that term?
	Well, it's a place to live.
	When I say lash up, I mean you've got quite an exotic... Yeah.
	I've never heard that term before.
	I learned something.
	Thanks.
	But yeah, I have quite a lash up in Arizona.
	My lash up was basically being as how hypo and hyperthermia are the biggest killers of
	people in outdoor survival situations, a lack of thermal regulation, poor body temperature.
	We've touched on that briefly.
	I wanted to design a home that would regulate its own temperature.
	Because according to people who do these sort of studies, up to 30 to 40 percent of our energy budget in the United States of America goes to keeping your house room temperature, which is a crime.
	So what I've done and it doesn't need to just be done in Arizona, of course it's easy here because of our Sundays, not Sundays during the week but our solar radiation days, is I've designed a passive solar earth home that again heats and cools itself.
	I don't burn any wood.
	It regulates its own temperature which is key to survival and you know I catch rain.
	I compost waste including my own poop.
	And basically the missing link I have is growing food because I was flying around the world doing a TV show for so long.
	And, you know, that's my missing link.
	So, my homestead is pretty much self-supporting.
	I do have photovoltaics, you know, which, of course, you know about the batteries.
	There's shelf life on all that stuff.
	That's right.
	But we go back to the Ted Koppel thing.
	You know, you mentioned, I can visualize your setup because of my lash thing or whatever you called it.
	Lash up.
	Yeah, that Art doesn't really know that the grid's down because Art's got his own grid going on.
	And so do I.
	No, see, I'm not saying that would run an air conditioner forever, because an air conditioner simply requires too damn much current.
	Right.
	Although they are coming out with some new DC setups, Cody, that are pretty slick and don't use so much current.
	I'm looking into it.
	At any rate, that's the one thing I can't run, and you've got to have it out here.
	I mean, where I live, Cody, it can go to 116 degrees.
	You know, you've got to have air.
	No, you don't.
	It depends on what you like.
	You've got to have air, Cody.
	I've got to have air.
	Okay, because your house wasn't built for the train it's on.
	Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	You're right.
	And going back to what you said about getting, you know, being stuck in the Jeep and stuff like that, the answer is simple for me.
	OnStar, help!
	I'm sorry, I've got to be honest with you here.
	I understand.
	Hold tight, we're at a short break here, we'll be right back.
	Cody Lundeen is my guest, I'm Art Bell, and this is Midnight in the Desert.
	cheering me up as we go absolutely music playing
	music playing come on men and women sky farm
	Call Midnight in the Desert at MITV 51.
	That's MITV 51.
	Okay, let me take a moment and do the talk, all right?
	And it'll just take a second.
	If you would like to join in the conversation, and frankly I'm having Such a really good time with this interview that I just realized two hours left and has gone by and I haven't given out any numbers or even thought about doing so, nor have I gone nearly through my list of questions for Cody.
	Cody Lundeen, my guest.
	But if you would like to join us, my national number, and I will get you in the conversation, I promise, is area code 952-225-5278.
	Once again, area code 952-225-5278.
	You can reach us on Skype.
	Wonderful instrument, Skype.
	You download it because it's free to your device, and then all you do is add us.
	It's called adding a contact, right?
	Once you become a little familiar with Skype, you'll get the place, little plus sign, where you add a contact.
	And in North America, America and Canada, you put in M-I-T-D 51.
	M-I-T-D 51.
	If you're outside the US and Canada, M-I-T-D 55.
	That's M-I-T-D 55.
	So, if you want to say something to Cody, That would be the way to do it as we progress through this final hour.
	Man, it went fast.
	Cody, welcome back.
	Thank you.
	So let me try a couple of the standard questions on you.
	For example, how many times have you ever faced a situation where you thought, you know what?
	I'm not going to make it out of this one really alive.
	This one's going to get me.
	Not me but I have been in a compromised situation years ago.
	I think it was in 1994 or so with a bunch of students.
	We all got horribly sick on something we ate in the field.
	I say this story right before people want to sign up for my courses.
	This isn't exactly good marketing but you asked.
	And so we got into something in the field that we shouldn't have.
	I think it was something I brought in.
	It was like an old squash because I've been growing native gardens for years.
	And I had students down on the ground and they were vomiting and pooping their pants.
	They didn't have the energy to pull down their pants and it was very, very scary.
	Of course it was in the dead of night and I had to hike out using the North Star to a ranch I knew about and puking myself.
	I was sick too.
	and a student of mine who is a friend of mine to this day for whatever reason and that was
	scary.
	I thought I was going to lose some students in that course and I had people hallucinating,
	seeing fairies, seeing all sorts of stuff and I thought I might lose some because again
	dehydration the biggest cause of death on the planet is lack of sanitation through diarrhea
	It kills hundreds of thousands of people every year right now.
	And I thought when I went to call and those helicopters came in, I didn't know if I was going to have some dead students at this college course.
	And if I had, I would have quit and I would have done something else.
	So most of them, or all of them, I guess, made it through?
	Yeah, of course.
	Yeah, that's great.
	If you can carry one item with you for survival or for... I know you hate that word.
	The most important item to carry on your person for self-preservation would be what?
	You've got to give me the context, Art.
	You know how I am about that.
	So what situation are we talking about here?
	FM or AM?
	The Bronx.
	Urban survival?
	Are you serious?
	Yeah, sure.
	It's an urban area.
	The Bronx.
	What's the most important thing to be carrying?
	It might be a .45 caliber pistol.
	It depends on what the scenario is.
	And that's a scary situation.
	It is.
	Because a lot of cities are... I mean, let's talk about poop.
	Who doesn't like to talk about poop?
	The average adult puts out about a half a pound of fecal matter a day.
	So if you have sanitation systems that are compromised, which of course they would be, in our Ted Koppel exercise, it's going to be a crappy situation out there.
	You know, hundreds of thousands of pounds of fecal matter will be around our major cities, including garbage, and then we have a roaring comeback of cockroaches and rats and mice, and we have epidemics, and that's how these things start.
	And we have compromised emergency response systems.
	It's scary.
	You know, because that's plausible.
	These are real things.
	You know, we can talk about alien abductions, and EMPs, and Bigfoot, and earth changes, and whatever.
	What about the poop?
	It's the little things that kill people, and we don't know where to put our refuse if we don't have guys in trucks taking it away.
	And I've just said, and I'll say it again, and I teach it in every damn class I do, the first thing we learn how to do in an Aboriginal Living Skills course is how to safely poop in the outdoors, because most people don't know how to do that, and we translate that over into our backyard on the urban courses that we do.
	And hundreds of thousands of people die every year of diarrhea and dysentery, and they dehydrate from the inside out.
	So it's these little things that I wanted to talk with you about as well that are important, that we're so used to sitting on a toilet that it doesn't even dawn on us.
	Talk about grid down.
	I'm not worried about the spoiled lasagna, so to speak.
	I'm worried about that first bowel movement, right?
	Sure, sure.
	What are you going to do with it?
	You know, and there's lots of things you can do with it.
	I recycle it.
	That's one thing you can do with it, but you've got to be on your game.
	You've got to have your game face on for that.
	So there's a lot of, as wonderful as, I love modern technology.
	I really enjoy going to the grocery store, but it's an illusion.
	You know, we don't have bananas and apples from the same season.
	You know, so I think it's really important that people just get a little bit more grounded, you know, and realize and go outdoors and maybe have a tomato plant in a pot indoors instead of a pothos plant or something.
	And we're getting reinvigorated about what it means to be a human being on planet Earth and stay alive in the same sense.
	Okay, let's say that you prepare, that you do The things that you should do to prepare for, I don't know, the power going off or whatever else might go on or happen that would be bad, and you built a... There was a Twilight Zone episode, remember that?
	Where they built this really cool shelter, and they had everything in there, all the food, everything, medical stuff, you know, all the stuff you would want and need to sustain yourself, but everybody knew about it, so It's like everybody knocked on the door, screamed and banged on the door until they blew their house down, effectively.
	Yeah, well, discretion is next to godliness.
	So I thought about that when I thought about you, Art, and your home in the desert, depending on which window you look out, with the lights are on at Art's place.
	Party at Art's!
	So you need to think about that, and whether the generator's in a soundproof box, ventilated or whatever.
	To me, power is a wonderful thing, but it's overrated for base survival.
	I mean, it's funny that you mentioned that you have I recommend people turn their own grid off, because that's an exercise in my second book, When All Hell Breaks Loose.
	I actually recommend that people, obviously if you're in an apartment complex, you don't want to switch the breaker because it pisses people off, but you can just tape over your own electrical outlets or whatever, but shut your grid down and define where the pain comes from first, because people's pain can be different.
	For yours, in June, it's air conditioning, right?
	Well, here's what I've always thought.
	hyperthermia and I want to be real clear Art, even though I'm not saying build another house,
	you do not need air conditioning in the desert if the architecture fits the land that it's
	based upon.
	Well here's what I've always thought, you can tell me if this is crazy or not, but you
	don't have to dig down in the earth very far to reach a stable, decent, actually cool temperature.
	And you could be literally living underground and probably not need air conditioning and not need heating because you get down far enough it becomes quite stable.
	Right.
	That's what my homestead is.
	I'm underground in my homestead.
	I'm living what you're talking about.
	And what is the average temperature maintained?
	In my house?
	Yes.
	Around 68 to 75 year-round.
	I forget, it's like for every foot, it changes in temp, but then it kind of stabilizes out at like 55 or whatever it is, which of course is incompatible.
	We don't want our living room 55.
	But here's three things your listeners should know about as far as self-reliant design.
	One is solar south.
	My house is pointed solar south because we're in the northern hemisphere, so all the windows are to the south.
	know I don't like the north for past solar design. So I have right orientation, I have
	lots of insulation, dead air space keeps the cocoa hot and the Kool-Aid cold, so it does
	both and you know it can get damn cold in your studio and it can get really hot in your
	It's smoking hot, because the deserts have both.
	We're screwed both ways, you know, because of lack of atmosphere.
	And the other is thermal mass.
	And that's where this concrete in my house comes into play.
	And that's where my flagstone floor comes into play, where the sunlight comes through my windows, hits the floor, soaks in, turns to longwave radiation, because it was shortwave when it came from the sun.
	And it re-radiates back out and keeps my house warm when the sun goes away.
	And it's free!
	In ancient Rome there was a sun law, you know, where if you built a building in my sun I could sue you because the sun was free energy.
	The Roman baths were faced the right direction, otherwise, you know, they were all freezing their butts off.
	So insulation, orientation, and thermal mass, and I have thermal mass because I have a lot of earth over my house as well, you think like an animal.
	Animals aren't walking around like gringos and donkeys in the noon-day sun.
	They're burrowing into a saguaro cactus, or they're burrowing into the ground.
	Now, that said, you don't need to have an earth home.
	Insulation is key, and windows are key.
	If I was building a structure in the desert or the mountains, I'd want as much insulation in the walls as I could possibly afford.
	But also, if you insist on that view out the northern windows, that's why your heating bill is $500 a month, because you have to adapt.
	I don't need the grid where I live.
	disconnect we have where we're designing boxes called houses to fit into areas
	based on ego or the view or whatever it is we're not paying attention to what
	the natural world is and that's a mistake and that's why we have these
	outrageous heating and cooling bills and and people are screwed if the grid goes
	down if the grid goes down I don't I don't need the grid where I live I don't
	need it.
	house thermal regulation.
	No, but all right, all right, but Cody, everybody knows that about you, right?
	I don't know.
	Well, I mean, people in your area, people, people know.
	I mean, you're a public person like I am.
	So you discussed this.
	So I mean, they know you're ready, right?
	I don't know.
	Well, I'm telling you then they, they, they know you're ready.
	They know you've probably got storable food.
	They know you've probably got a way to generate energy.
	They know you've got a home that might be comfortable when there is just 118 degrees.
	So, if something awful happens, how does Cody protect his lash-up?
	Cody can be very mobile when Cody needs to be mobile and Cody is very good at being out in the landscape.
	So as much as I would hate to get up my homestead, Cody can be very mobile.
	The other thing I'm trying to do instead of promote fear is I'm trying to educate people that they too can be independent and self-reliant and that's part of the reason I have my company and that's part of the reason what's what I stand for.
	Not here, Cody, but I mean, what I'm saying, what I'm trying to say, and I guess I better say it directly, is somebody's going to come and take your stuff away.
	I understand what you're saying.
	You know, I totally get it.
	All right, tell me, what do you do?
	Do you protect it with weapons if necessary?
	It's a very, very remote location, for one.
	It's very remote, and it has certain things in its terrain and topography that are to my benefit, not yours.
	Landmines?
	No, that's a different profession.
	We'll see what happens, but my whole thing is, you know, I know people that their game plan is to go raid the Mormon population.
	I know that type of personality and it disgusts me because it's a parasite.
	I don't like parasites.
	So my deal is to try to educate as many people as possible.
	And yes, I'm slightly evading your question.
	I understand completely what you're talking about, Art.
	I lived in the woods for two years in a brush shelter, man.
	So I know about tracking people out and living illegally in the woods, and I've done all that stuff, etc.
	But I don't want that out there, per se.
	I'd rather hold out education and hope people take that.
	And if not, then they can go in the stew pot.
	Okay.
	Well, I can't top that.
	I mean, if you're going to turn them into protein, uh... Let me ask you something, Hart.
	Push comes to shove, would you eat someone?
	Um... Be honest.
	I... I, uh... You don't?
	You're not?
	I would need some time to think.
	I would need some time to think.
	Oh, they're already dead.
	They're already dead.
	Then I'm starving to death.
	I'm starving to death.
	There's the context for you.
	Okay, well the Donner Party says it all, right?
	I think.
	Well, so does that mean yes or no?
	Boy, that means, uh... I don't know if I could answer it until I got into that situation.
	I understand.
	My answer today wouldn't be the same, perhaps, as once I'm starving.
	Yeah.
	People will do almost anything.
	You're absolutely right, and that's why I love to read survival stories.
	People do almost anything, and I understand that psychology.
	Survival is 90% psychology, and I get that because part of my courses are taking people.
	We don't want to break through the envelope, but we're pushing.
	So I understand about uncomfortable people.
	I've been doing it for a long time in real wilderness with people who are just like, my God, I paid for this.
	on some of the more aggressive courses and that's really scary
	but at the same time it can really be a rallying experience where the tribe comes out
	and everyone pulls together.
	You know, like Katrina.
	Like Hurricane Katrina.
	It was a government failure.
	But if you read all those news releases, a lot of these quote-unquote poor neighborhoods, because they were used to doing something called talking to each other every day, they pulled together and they found out why Mrs. Withers wasn't on her porch in her rocking chair.
	And they totally took care of their own.
	And that's what can happen.
	Survival situations can bring out the beast in people.
	They're the best.
	Exactly.
	And that's one of the reasons I love my profession is because there are a lot of head games going
	on.
	There's a lot of psychology involved.
	And to be a good leader like Sir Ernest Shackleton, someone like him, is a great thing.
	Someone like him that kept all his men alive in arctic conditions.
	It's really inspiring.
	And that's what I'm trying to instill in people is, you know, party on, man.
	You know, you can do this, and if you can't do this, die with your damn boots on.
	That's kind of a bad metaphor for me, but you know what I mean.
	Well, it is for you, yes.
	What about the modern prepper movement?
	I have a lot of people who, for reasons that you might laugh at and fear that they have,
	you might laugh at, are nevertheless prepping.
	And do you have any comments to that group?
	Yeah, I think preparation is always a good thing.
	Again, I grew up around grandparents chopping the heads off chickens and having root cellars
	and canning their garden produce in South Dakota, right?
	It's not strange to me.
	The prepping movement was just something that was normal in my grandma's day.
	It was something they just did.
	They would have laughed, you know, at the prepping movement.
	It was just common sense.
	I think preparation is good.
	Again, like I mentioned about an hour and a half ago, and man this has flown quickly, that when preparation is done in fear, when it's done in a fear-based thing, It's temporary at best.
	And so if people want to be a part of the prepping movement because they really dig simplifying their lives, and being more self-reliant, and not being a slave, and, you know, turning their kids on to how a tomato really grows, and that it's actually, you know, a plant before it's a vegetable, I think that's great, and I'll totally support that.
	What I won't support is the fear-mongering BS.
	Okay, well, alright, so here's a straight-up question for you.
	If you live on the 50th floor of a high-rise in any major city, doesn't matter,
	and the power goes out, that place short of generators is a tomb.
	Right?
	Your question is?
	Yeah.
	Um, what kind of, what kind of advice do you give people who live in those environments?
	More often than not, that's what people live in these days.
	I know.
	Yeah, that's a tough one.
	Do you want to, let's say, well, you know me in specifics, but okay, I got your question.
	You need to deal with, of course, the very, very short term hygiene and sanitation, which we've kind of briefly talked about.
	There's a water element that's going to come in.
	There's clearly the personal self-defense element that's going to come in eventually.
	There's communications, there's thermal regulation, like we talked about, like, wow, it's 110 in my apartment, stuff like that.
	So really, I will answer your question, but people always ask me, hey man, Cody, what's like your ultimate bug out bag, dude?
	And I'm saying, well, think about just basic backpacking equipment.
	If you think about what a backpacker has, they don't have to interact with nature at all.
	They can walk around blissfully ignorant of how the natural world works because they've got everything on their back and you could be a backpacker and camp out in Central Park.
	You know, a lot of people are intense after earthquakes, right?
	The buildings are unstable.
	So if you take these little sized bites of the elephant, because you asked a massive question, and people realize, okay, well Cody says a bug out kit could just be really good backpacking gear.
	We have a sleeping bag to keep us warm if it's cold.
	A ground pad to prevent conduction.
	We have some food to eat.
	We might have a little stove to cook it on if it requires that.
	We have some water and a way to disinfect it.
	We have a flashlight to get down those 50 flights of stairs.
	Stuff like that.
	And when people take this big massive elephant and carve it down into that manageable slice, then they just get more of.
	Okay, we've got a flashlight.
	Let's get a bunch of batteries.
	We've got camping food.
	Let's get a little bit more of that.
	Let's start storing some water and gallon jugs or a 55-gallon drum if we can do that in our apartment.
	Let's get a bunch of Ziploc bags and plastic bags.
	We can always put them in the toilet bowl with no water and poop in them.
	You know, and I love newspaper.
	It is a fire hazard, obviously, but shredded newspaper is good for For diapers or sanitary napkins or wiping your butt or disposing of a dead body.
	I mean, shredded newspaper.
	You know, if you poop in the bowl with a plastic bag, you can add different stuff to that and contain that fecal matter for the meantime.
	There's all these little things, but it's daunting.
	And you ask a great question because it's daunting.
	You know, because there's a lot of stuff that needs to happen.
	The biggest stuff that should happen is cooperation.
	And ideally, every apartment building will have some game plan.
	Unfortunately, that probably doesn't happen because the guy that wants to make a game plan or the girl is thought to be a wacko.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	I'll tell you a little story, Cody.
	I own a condo in the Philippines, in Manila.
	Wow.
	Now that's a city, let me tell you.
	We were on the 19th floor.
	I still own it, by the way.
	Um, I'm a ham operator, have been all my life.
	So I tried to get, to let them have me put up an Anton on the roof, and I did have one for a while, but they made me take it down.
	And I said, look, you people, I actually went to the board, I said, If we get a big earthquake, and we are here in earthquake country, you know, and we're hit by a typhoon, and we're certainly in typhoon country, communication is going to go down.
	And they said, no, no it won't.
	Other cell phones have always been okay.
	I said, well, anyway, I actually had to leave the Philippines with my family because of that.
	Because they wouldn't let me put up antennas.
	I said, look, If something happens, I can get to the authorities.
	I can find out if people are safe.
	I can do a lot of things for our two-building community, and they wouldn't allow it.
	Wow.
	There you go.
	Yeah, there you go.
	So, I mean, you're a godsend.
	I mean, I have a chapter on communications, and HAM is where it's at.
	There's a local HAM community in Prescott, and some of the guys keep saying, Cody, come here, and I just haven't had the time, but I would love I mean, they're worth their weight in gold, clearly.
	Of course.
	And you guys are it.
	So, you're still active, Ham?
	You have your whole set up at your place there?
	I do, indeed.
	Great.
	I can talk to any point anywhere in the world.
	Wow.
	Alright, so very quickly, Skype.
	James, you're on with Cody.
	Hello.
	Hello, Art.
	73 is Cody and Art.
	That's Ham Lingo.
	One in Ohio.
	Yes.
	Now, my Master's is in Emergency Management, and I actually have read Cody's books.
	They're awesome.
	Hearing him tonight explain some of the things, I think he understands that, like, an EMP, any kind of thing that happens, he's exactly right.
	They say on an EMP attack in central, you know, central to the U.S., if that did that, 90% of the people in the U.S.
	would be dead from feces, just like he's talking about, not being able to get to their drugs.
	From, you know, the older folks and people who need drugs to poor to young people, whatever.
	Right.
	So there's all these problems that are going to compound.
	And Cody's on the mark.
	The one thing I would, I would, I would, I would mention, I don't know if Cody's ever read the blog by the gentleman when Argentina, Argentina collapsed, but his blog describes the best place is to live.
	And it wasn't out all by yourself in the middle of nowhere.
	Because those became rape horror rooms.
	It wasn't living in the inner cities.
	Those just became violent cesspools.
	So?
	It was living in small communities where you knew everybody, just like Cody was saying.
	In, like, in the poor areas where everybody knew everybody, if somebody broke in your house, your neighbor would hear you scream.
	You got it.
	They would come to your aid.
	You got it.
	And so that's the whole thing, I think.
	Cody is breaking it down nicely.
	I'm glad he's on your program, Art.
	And I'll let you go, but much love to you guys.
	All right.
	Thanks, James.
	Appreciate it.
	Take care.
	And so there you go.
	He read your books.
	And I guess he's probably right.
	Would you agree with him about that?
	Absolutely.
	Okay.
	Yeah, it's the tribe, right?
	Tribes have been around for tens of thousands of years.
	And the mountain man, and I'm not being sexist, just the term mountain man, they died fairly young, you know, and they had a rifle and they had flour and they had a mule and with a horse, but they were doing everything by themselves.
	And that's exhausting.
	So I'm all for, even though I'm a loner, believe it or not, I can't be because I'm a teacher,
	but the community is where it's at.
	The tribe is where it's at, and I would love to do something.
	I know the federal government, it's not their job to take care of us.
	That's the antithesis of self-reliance, but it would be cool if we had a program similar to like McGruff the Crime Dog or Smokey the Bear for fires, to have some sort of cool thing that would prompt people to be more interested, especially kids.
	in self-reliance instead of just waving a flag on 9-11 and eating a piece of pie.
	It's like it would be nice to do something proactive and make it fun for the younger
	generation because they'll be taking care of us in the future.
	All right, quickly in Philadelphia, you're on the air with Cody.
	Hi.
	Hi Art, how are you?
	Fine.
	To you I'd like to say I'm listening to you on a $20 shortwave transistor radio.
	Way to go.
	I got it off eBay.
	It talks to 9-1-1.
	And the Cody, I'd like to ask you, what do you think of Creek Stewart from the Weather Channel's survival show that was on a few months ago?
	Do you know who I'm talking about?
	Um, I know who you're talking about only because I know he has a show, but I've never heard of him before that, so I really can't give you any intel.
	He's supposed to be a survival expert.
	He seems pretty knowledgeable, but when I watched the show, it seems like he made fire pretty quickly, like they, like they, like they, uh, they faked it.
	I don't know.
	I'm not saying he's a bad guy, but, you know, it seems like they, they, uh, you know.
	Cody, I think, uh, making fire is, is considered to be your specialty, right?
	I think discovery has made it seem that way.
	I do love fire and I can hold my own but there's a lot of other things I do because I have
	to, you know, to be well rounded out as an instructor.
	Well, just me, you know, short of my nice Bic lighter here.
	I couldn't make fire in a million years.
	I watch people do it.
	I watch the bow thing.
	I watch the rest of it.
	But I have this feeling that I wouldn't have much luck.
	Although I must say, out here in the desert, it's nice and dry.
	It does make it a little easier, I guess, right?
	It does make it a little easier.
	And Art, if we ever hook up sometime and meet, I will give you your own personal fire lesson.
	Oh God, I would love that.
	I really would love that.
	Because it's one of the very early things you need.
	I mean, water.
	It is.
	The human body cannot go long without water.
	How long, roughly?
	Well, here I am with the variables again.
	It depends on last roll intake of food.
	It depends on medications on board.
	It depends on if someone's pregnant.
	It depends on wind speed.
	It depends on outdoor ambient temperature.
	It depends on exertion.
	It depends on the time of year, humidity, etc.
	So you can see why people hate me, right? Because I need to know more detail.
	But in general, your listeners can get their hydration, pee.
	The next time they pee, if a body is completely hydrated, the urine will be clear.
	It doesn't mean that you're dead when your urine is yellow, which most Americans especially are chronically dehydrated.
	Right.
	But that's the way the body can tell you if it has enough water or not.
	All right.
	All right.
	Uh, exactly right.
	I know he is so right.
	Doctor, I drink a lot of coffee.
	And, uh... You get a shiver in the dark.
	It's raining in the park.
	Meantime... Glad the vocals started it.
	Cause I love the way that you stop and you hold everything Cause I love the way that you stop and you hold everything
	And I want you to be what I feel, what I was Where would you be now?
	Cause I love you To initiate a dialogue sequence with Art Bell, please
	coordinate your Phalanges and call 195- and call 195-
	That's 1952.
	Call Art.
	All right.
	My guest is Cody Lundin.
	You may know him from the TV show he did called Dual Survival.
	You may know him in varying different ways, and soon you'll know him, perhaps, in a different way.
	But we're talking about survival.
	Sorry.
	Survival.
	So here's a way of thinking about this, Cody, that I want to lay on you for your thoughts.
	So I live in one of these towns, Pahrump, Nevada.
	We're located about 65 miles west of Las Vegas.
	We're probably six or eight miles at most from the California border.
	And it's deep desert, as you know.
	And there are only three major roads, actually only two major roads, out of town.
	Three, maybe.
	And that's it.
	So if something really horrible happened, we have had discussions here.
	We have a unique situation here in Perlman, Nevada, because we have underground water.
	We have water wells and underground water and septics and so forth and so on.
	And then when you add to that emergency power, And dried food that lasts a very long time.
	You have a situation where you can live for a long time except for the most dangerous thing of all.
	People.
	Yeah.
	Now see, you got California to the west, LA, where you could imagine an earthquake.
	You could imagine millions of people pouring out of California one way or the other.
	Or even my friends over the hill in Las Vegas there, two million people.
	There have been talks, Cody, by myself and others in this community and some of its leaders about, in a situation of that sort, blowing the roads.
	Can you understand that?
	Absolutely.
	Yeah, I get it.
	I mean, there is no more of a danger than other people.
	Other unprepared people.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Who are very scared.
	I get it.
	that we're the most dangerous animal on the planet.
	And there's talk, you know, I mean you can imagine some of the talks that I've been around
	or people or whatever, I mean I've been doing this a long, long time.
	And yeah, there's certain arteries in the prescate and there's, you know, certain people
	that talk about blocking those certain arteries and I think it's interesting to remember what
	happened in the katuna again.
	A hurricane gives you lots of warning.
	We don't get that luxury with an earthquake or a tornado.
	You know, we just had three quakes in Arizona last night.
	I mean, you don't get the luxury of preparation for something like that, like you do a hurricane.
	And even with that preparation of Katrina, a lot died.
	Well, a lot died, but as far as you're talking about, you know, egress and ingress, the highways were clogged.
	You know, I talked to people, you know, after my second book came out with people emailing me, you know, we were stuck in traffic for eight hours and went two miles.
	You know, so you're going to have, I mean, a four-lane highway is not that big of an artery when you're talking about hundreds of thousands of people.
	And, you know, it's just, it's not sustainable for For the type of stuff, you know, let's all go to Pahrump, you know, but I understand what you're saying.
	And I think that I don't want people to think that I'm not well aware of strategy, you know, and I understand and I can instinctively think like an animal because I spent a lot of time in the bush and most animals are hunted.
	So I understand the psychology that goes into someone who's really scared and hungry.
	And I understand not wanting to be eaten.
	And I really, really wish that we would all Get with the program and I know it's never going to happen
	for everyone, but I'm hoping your listeners will be inspired to go out and be a little
	bit more self-reliant after our talk tonight.
	I really appreciate the opportunity to come on your show, not to mention that I think
	you're a radio god.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Self-reliance doesn't have to be scary.
	It doesn't have to be fear-based.
	My grandparents called it good old common sense.
	My heart is with my grandparents because they originally inspired me to do more with less.
	They went through the Depression, for God's sake.
	and told me some of the stories.
	So they are my inspiration with trying to be prepared and not doing it with this psycho-zombie
	fear that is so common out there.
	It's a big mistake.
	Fear is the mind killer.
	Dune, Benny Jezerett training, Frank Herbert, fear is the mind killer and it really is.
	It can keep you alive.
	Adrenaline is a wonderful thing but it can also paralyze your thought process.
	You know though, even if it's zombies that gets them to prepare, it's not all that bad.
	If they prepare, then they prepare.
	I agree, and you know I'm a purist by now, and you know I'm pretty hardcore in my methodology, but I agree that even if people are scared and they're preparing, thank God they got the pinot beans, and I applaud them for that, and I think that's very wise.
	All right.
	Kurt on Skype, you're on the air with Cody Heintz.
	Hello, how are you?
	I'm very well, thank you.
	Good to hear, good to hear you all.
	Great show tonight.
	I was going to ask, well I'm in Tullis in Arizona, West Phoenix.
	What part of Arizona are you in?
	I live outside of Prescott, which you probably know where that is.
	Yes, beautiful area.
	Yeah.
	I was going to ask you what you thought about fossil fuels and every city and every nation has a big old dark cloud over it and My brother committed suicide with exhaust.
	He put a hose in his exhaust pipe and duct taped it and then died that way in an hour.
	And then I think of us all sitting on the freeways in rush hour traffic and breathing that in a little bit.
	Don't you think that might be what causes all the diseases?
	Well, surely it's an issue, and I think until there's more government subsidies to do some more alternative transportation, we're probably going to be in the petroleum phase for a little bit longer.
	Well, that's just pitiful.
	And then one thing, you talked about recycling your poo.
	How in the world can you do that?
	I'll take my answer off the air.
	Okay, I recommend the book The Humanoor Handbook by J.C.
	Jenkins.
	I actually had the pleasure of his son built my chicken coop on my homestead, which by the way is passive solar.
	That's a great book that describes the pathogens that are in human fecal matter, how to do it for different bioregions, and since it's a long answer and we're ending the tale of your show, get The Humanoor Handbook and read it.
	Okay.
	So, you kind of recommend then, if I've got it right, for the urban person, in terms of preparation, there's just not a hell of a lot you can do in a giant apartment building or something, but you can have a go-bag prepared?
	Yeah, I mean, most people will probably be exiting out, and it's really, I think, okay, for the average family, find out what hurts.
	You know, what are your needs?
	And Americans confuse those with wants.
	The needs are, we need oxygen, we need water, we need food for longer term.
	We need to be thermo-regulated.
	It can't be too cold, it can't be too hot.
	We need some sort of basic sanitation plan as well as hygiene.
	It will be nice to have communications and it will be nice to have some sort of transportation
	even if it's walking down barefoot to the city if you have to.
	I would assess all the resources I have in my apartment.
	I would assess all the resources I have in my immediate area and in my existing town.
	And I would be aware of all the freeways into Pahrump, Nevada if I needed to get out of town, but be aware that that might not be the most prudent thing to do.
	It really depends on the variables of, of course, psychotic people and looters.
	And one of your call-in guests hit the nail on the head.
	90% of Americans are on some sort of mind-altering drug, whether it is caffeine or Prozac or
	whatever.
	So when you have hundreds of thousands of people that can't get access to mental health
	medication you've got a serious blowout along with the stress of an urban survival situation.
	So the family should assess what their strong points are, what their weak points are, custom
	make it to your family.
	There is no one size fits all mindset or methodology for staying alive and be prepared to adapt
	and party on and keep that mindset that you're going to get through this even if you don't,
	especially if you have kids.
	If mom and dad melt down in front of the kids it's game over.
	So you have to have your game face on for your children, if nothing else, and try to do as best you can for them in a very, very scary situation.
	And so, if you're in an urban area and it's lights out, the grid goes down, you know, for a year, let's say, obviously you're not going to be able to remain in the city, so your advice is get out, right?
	Well, I don't know.
	I mean, there's a lot of green areas now.
	There's a lot of city gardens going on in abandoned lots.
	Here's what's going to happen.
	Here's my crystal ball.
	you're going to have a tremendous amount of fires because when people don't have any access
	to anything to heat or cook with, they're going to burn whatever they can, including
	the picnic table in the backyard.
	Because people are inept making fire and handling fire because they don't understand fire, you're
	going to have a lot of fires in towns and it will burn down cities and burn down towns
	because of the one idiot on the on the block who didn't get his stuff together.
	The other thing that will happen, unfortunately, is when people deal with alternative heating
	sources or cooking, they'll die of carbon monoxide.
	Carbon monoxide now is the number one poisoning in the United States of America right now,
	let alone in a grid-down situation.
	So you'll have those things.
	You'll have the roaring comeback of epidemics with the fecal matter.
	You'll have carbon monoxide.
	You'll probably have the fires.
	You'll have problems with sanitation.
	And then you've got the psychotic crazies.
	Okay?
	Lots of them.
	Yeah.
	Kill each other off or try to take your stuff or whatever.
	So they'll be the initial casualties of people taking 12, you know, buckshot to the face.
	Oh yeah.
	That's just human nature.
	But whether you stay or whether you go, where are you going?
	People always think, I'm going to head to the hills.
	There are a lot of dead people in the hills, Art.
	Try to shelter in place if you can.
	Have a plan B. Try to have a plan C. Again, there are so many variables in this situation
	it can be so scary and confusing.
	Everyone is trying to sell you this crap on their website that have no experience and
	survival skills.
	Stick to basic physiology first and realize that everyone's going to be really scared.
	So that's where the psychology comes in.
	And the physics of heat loss and gain regarding hypo and hyperthermia are key.
	And that's again, we go back to my homestead or the right clothing in the right environment
	or the sleeping bag you brought with you, etc.
	Because a grid down situation in the wintertime in Minnesota is much different than a grid
	down situation in June in Phoenix.
	So you know, it's these catastrophes like in France where they had the grid down in
	August when most people were on vacation because that's how they do things there.
	Thousands of people died in their apartments out of hyperthermia and dehydration.
	We're not talking outdoor survival skills here.
	I'm talking about keeping your listeners alive in their apartment or out in the woods and it boils down to keeping things simple.
	And not forgetting about what human physiology requires to stay alive and don't buy into this I almost cussed.
	But don't buy into this stuff out there of people selling everything under the sun.
	My motto is, the more you know, the less you need.
	And I'm a fan of critical gear.
	But critical gear is based on needs, not wants.
	Please don't.
	Your listeners should not be roped into all the stuff people are trying to sell.
	Think like my grandparents.
	Keep it simple.
	The less moving parts, the better.
	Keep a party on mindset and roll with the variables as best you can.
	All right.
	We are so out of time.
	Michelle, I know, is in Japan.
	Hi, Michelle.
	Do you have a quick question, I hope?
	I do.
	Mostly, food and water are not really a problem for me here if there's ever a big earthquake.
	And neither is tsunamis.
	But about staying warm, how do you stay warm?
	Just a quick, simple tip for how you stay warm in an apartment building.
	Especially with me, because I have the Tommy Matt floors, which could catch fire easily.
	Okay.
	Clothing.
	Have the right clothing.
	Sleeping bags are cheap.
	Get a couple of sleeping bags.
	Blankets.
	The easiest way to stay warm in cold temperatures is to be adequately dressed.
	Got it.
	All right.
	Real quick.
	Stockton, California.
	You've been waiting.
	Thank you.
	You're on air.
	Hey, Cody.
	Great show.
	I just have one quick question.
	Are you big into hunting at all?
	And also, what is like your diet when, whether or not you're outdoors or in the bush or not?
	In the bush is variable. It depends on what course I'm doing. Some have food, some don't.
	And I eat quite a bit. I eat like six times a day. I love to train, you know. I love to train a lot.
	So I eat lots of protein.
	I'm very simple.
	Sprouted bread.
	You know, I have a pretty simple, monotone diet.
	Sweet potatoes, protein, sprouted bread, and then repeat process.
	You know, vegetables for dinner with more protein.
	I'm not a paleo diet.
	I'm not doing that, but I have a pretty boring diet.
	All right.
	Hello there.
	You're on the air with Cody.
	Hello.
	Hi, Alex and Cody.
	What do you think about taking the boots away from a military trained person?
	Say that again, please?
	Cody said if you took the boots away from a military trained person... That they'd be in pain, yeah.
	Yeah, but I'm thinking, if you had a full platoon, 72 guys, and you could take the boots, the M14, 7.82 gear, the whole shooting match, I prefer Cody to be the sergeant in charge, but he had 72 guys who can't take away chain of command, the understanding of such, cooperation, and the ability to obey orders.
	Yeah, I'm not sure where you're going with this.
	Well, if you garnish the knowledge of 72 people, does Cody believe that they could survive in a harsh situation?
	Okay.
	Did you get that, Cody?
	With the knowledge of 72 people, could you survive?
	It depends on if they're politicians or not.
	So if they're seasoned people in the outdoors, we hope, and there we go back right into the tribe, right?
	That little village that one of your callers talked about, and communication and cooperation are key.
	Otherwise, it turns to Lord of the Flies and people die.
	I would like to say that I really believe in the better side of human beings, and there is a good side to them, to be sure.
	But in a national situation, a grid-down situation, for example, Cody, I don't have much hope that it would be better for a long, long time.
	I think that with communication, civilization would return a little faster, and it would come back, and things would settle down.
	I'm telling you, Cody, my faith in my fellow man, especially in the early days of something like that, I don't have much faith.
	I understand.
	My job as a survival instructor is to be brutally honest and yet also to inspire hope and to inspire the will to live.
	Well, I agree with what you said and I hold the same concerns, but as my role, as my service to life, I have to have the glass as being half full, not half empty.
	West Virginia, very, very quickly, hello.
	Hey, I just have a quick question for Katie.
	I'm out here on the East Coast in West Virginia and I was wanting to take some survival courses And I didn't know if he knew anybody out here that he would recommend.
	Okay, that's a good question.
	Do you still teach yourself, Cody?
	Do you have classes?
	CodyLundin.com.
	I put my new course schedule up for 2016 two weeks ago.
	Oh, excellent.
	So, and to answer his question, I don't know anyone in that area.
	But I do have a thing on my website, choosing a good instructor.
	Ask for a professional resume.
	If they don't have one, that's your first red flag.
	Okay.
	Well, boy, it has been an honor to have you on tonight, my friend.
	And what a cool show.
	What a really good show.
	I thank you.
	And I want to thank you, Art.
	I think you're really doing a good service, and I'm glad you're out there.
	Thanks for having me on.
	We'll do it again sometime, if you're willing.
	I am.
	Thank you.
	All right.
	Take care.
	Good night.
	There you have it.
	Cody Lundin.
	A lot of you know him.
	Some of you don't.
	Some of you now know more than you did.
	Either way, Wow.
	That's what I would say.
	Wow.
	What a show.
	Good night, everybody.
	Wait a minute.
	Let me do this properly.

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