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Aug. 18, 2015 - Art Bell

02:16:02

Art Bell MITD - Father Jack Ashcraft Exorcism

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50:31

father jack ashcraft

01:05:29

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blanche barton

01:39

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johnny cash

00:12

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be on the planet.
		This is Midnight in the Desert.
		I'm Mark Bell.
unidentified		The rules for this program are short and sweet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No bad language.
		No bad language.
		And only one call per show.
		That's it.
		Okay, a couple of items before our guest tonight, Father Jack Ashcraft.
		And here they are.
		Now, wait a minute.
		I forgot all the thank yous, didn't I?
		I've got to do those.
		Thank you, Telos, for the great sound.
		Joe Talbot, of course, here in Prump.
		What are the odds of that?
		About a zillion to one.
		Keith Rowan, my webmaster.
		Heather Wade, producer, StreamGuys, LV.net, sales is Pete Everhart, of course.
		And TuneIn Radio for all that distribution.
		You know, it's easy.
		You get a telephone, an iPad, any kind of pad.
		Just download, you know, the app and you're here.
		You know, search for my name and you're here.
		It's that simple.
		Now, two women have apparently passed the Army's Grueling Ranger test, and even tougher and more dangerous jobs may well lie ahead.
		The military services are poised to allow women to serve in most frontline combat jobs.
		I don't think this is a good idea.
		I just don't.
		I don't know why.
		Because I'm old.
		Officials say the Army and Air Force, likely, will not seek exceptions, meaning they'll go along with it.
		Army, Navy, and Air Force are going to go along.
		Not so much the Marines, though.
		They're going to seek an exception.
		I'm not I'm a little puzzled, actually, why I'm against it.
		I think that in a combat situation, a military man would want to save a woman probably ahead of himself.
		Now, maybe they've somehow bred that out of them.
		I don't know.
		All right, there's a little bit of news.
		Public service announcements have indicated recently that if you see a UFO in England, forget it.
		Well, don't forget it.
		I mean, call MUFON.
		But the traditional people that have been investigating UFOs in Great Britain are giving it up.
		Actually, forget the RAAF says forget it.
		Don't even bother to report it to us.
		Mysterious Universe shares a trio of UFO sightings.
		This all comes from theanomalous.com.
		You might check them out.
		These defy conventional descriptions, which is impressive given the fact that UFOs are already defying conventional description in the first place, right, by what they're doing.
		But when's the last time you spotted a flying glowing arrow?
		How about a flying glowing arrow the size of an 18-wheeler over Long Island, New York?
		According to eyewitnesses, not one but many who caught it on video, the UFO approached Long Island, MacArthur Airport, blinking lights, then stopped in midair, and then get this, began moving backwards.
		Now, that is not generally something airplanes can do normally or ever.
		And a bit south, I guess they've discovered several sightings of UFOs near a place called Oxmall.
		I believe it is UXMAL in Mexico.
		But you know what?
		There have been so many of them that like in close encounters of the third kind people, visitors are frequently seen gathering nightly and waiting for the UFOs to show up.
		One last housekeeping item, and then we're off and away, and that is I have said on my Facebook page, and now I'm going to say here on the air, we have something called time travelers.
		Time travelers are people who join us for, at the moment, five bucks a month.
		Time travelers are able to listen to any old show, any, you know, tomorrow morning.
		You could be listening to this program.
		Many of you, I'm sure, are.
		And so it gives you the ability to do that, to listen to older shows as we have created them.
		And now we're beginning to get a little pile of old shows, or a pretty good size pile, actually.
		So you have that privilege.
		And you also have the ability to go.
		As a matter of fact, let me bring it up right now.
	I got busy before the show.
	We have something called the wormhole, and that gives you the ability to go to artbill.com, type in a question.
	That suddenly appears on my computer, and then I can pass it on to the guest or not, depending on the quality of your question, frankly.
	All right, comes now Father Jack Ashcraft.
	He was ordained a traditional Byzantine Catholic priest in 2005 and a céde-vécontist.
	That's a céde-vecontest, I believe.
	And as such, he is a very vocal critic of the Vatican, as was Father Martin, exposing the infiltration Of the Vatican by forces in contention with Christianity who support globalism.
	He is an independent author addressing apologetics issues like modern cultural changes, the paranormal phenomena, exorcisms, UFOs, and more.
	He's been called, in fact, the Malachi Martin of the 21st century.
	He is one of the leading authorities on cults, the occult, and exorcism.
	So coming up in just a moment is going to be a very, very interesting man, Father Ashcraft.
	And oh, I've got lots of places to go with this program tonight.
	Stay right where you are.
	And where you are is Midnight in the Desert.
	I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Oh, the light is over.
		City light, ain't it good in the day?
		Thank you.
johnny cash ▲ ● ▼		In each sip and in each sup, could you partake of that last offered cup or disappear into the butter scrap?
unidentified		Want to take a ride?
		Your conductor, Art Bell, will punch your ticket when you call 1-952.
		Call Art.
		That's 1-952-225-5278.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seemed the perfect opening bumper, wouldn't you say?
		All right, now one last thing that I guess I didn't mention.
		We have a deadline for the time travelers I mentioned.
		Yes, indeed.
		It's $5 right now, and you'll be grandfathered in if you join between now and tomorrow night midnight.
		That's the deal.
		Between now and tomorrow night, midnight.
		No.
		See, what is today?
		Today is the 18th.
		Midnight on the 20th.
		Okay, midnight on the 19th, depending on how you want to think of it.
		I guess it's midnight on the 20th.
		It all fouled up with midnight.
		All right.
		Anyway, here he comes.
		Father Jack Ashcraft, welcome to Midnight in the Desert.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		It's an honor and a privilege.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for coming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you located, Adams?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I'm actually in the Greater Cincinnati, Northern Kentucky area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		All right.
		Father, you also knew of Father Malachi Martin.
		Many have you apparently compared you to him.
		Is that correct?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I'm glad you asked that because I want to sort of clear something up on that.
		Okay.
		It is certainly not because I have the same level of education as Father Martin.
		As you know, he was highly educated and a brilliant man, very intelligent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've obviously got some under your belt.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, but not quite to the degree he had.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I think, really, the comparison is really because he and I approach the same topics in a very public and vocal manner that perhaps others might not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then it would be appropriate for you to pick up the mantle.
		You say you're a sede vacantis.
		What is that, please?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, the term sede vicantis comes from the Latin sede vicante, which means the seat is vacant.
		Now, whenever a pope dies, the church is in a state of sede vicante.
		However, the position of sede vicantis, which is the position that Father Martin came to later in his life, is that the popes from the start of the pontificate of John XXIII on down to the current claimant to the papacy are all anti-popes.
		That is, they are not real popes.
		They are false shepherds and not to be trusted.
		And Father Martin came to that position himself late in life.
		And that is really the connection I have to through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we're getting a bunch of noise in there.
		Maybe it's a cord on your...
		That's all right.
		So he came to the same conclusion late in life, you say.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and he actually participated in the ordination of at least one Sedevicantist priest for the Roman Rite rather than the Byzantine, which makes sense because Father Martin was Roman Rite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, he even went further, and I'm going to come back to this, but he even went further in saying that there was evil influence in the Vatican.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		Are you agree?
		I mean, John XXIII, there were documents that fell into the hands of some sedevicantists that proved that John XXIII had been a Rosicrucian and possibly even a Freemason.
		And from there, I mean, you have a whole lot of other things that connected to that.
		A lot of the other prelates had connections to, at the time, Soviet Russia, were closet communists.
		And then you had others who were outright occultists and Satanists, as Father Martin made very clear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He sure did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so you agree with that.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How come you don't get a letter from Rome saying you're out?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, Rome doesn't recognize any sativa contests.
		But the point is, is that Because we understand that the current hierarchy is not valid, they don't have any authority over us anyway.
		So even if they did issue a letter, it would be meaningless because according to traditional canon law, we are quite valid and, in fact, at this point, are the only valid clergy that the Catholic faith will have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So much like, I don't know, civil service workers, you can't be fired.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		Correct.
		Yeah, there's, I mean, they can't do anything.
		They can complain, as they did with Archbishop Lefevre and the Society of St. Pius X, but ultimately that's not going to do them any good.
		They have no authority.
		It's interesting that people are aware of Father Martin's writings on these issues, but they're not really that aware of how it is he knew so much.
		And I think that is a very interesting story.
		And a lot of the, I guess you could call them fans of Father Martin take umbrage when the information is given because it's not pretty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He did know a great deal and probably shared more with me than he should have.
		Things that I don't share on the air and some that I do.
		But yes, you're right.
		He knew a very great deal.
		I guess he was close to popes and I can only imagine in my mind what it would take for somebody like yourself or Father Martin or any other priest to get to the point where you're saying the things that you're saying.
unidentified		It must be really bad.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, and it has been since the at least pretend pontificate of John XXIII.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		And Father Martin, what a lot of people don't realize is that he knew, because in his very early years in the 60s and early 70s, he worked for one of the architects of the subversion and realized at some point, obviously, that he had worked for the wrong side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And with all his crowd, yeah.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		That was Cardinal Bay.
		Wow.
		Of course, like I said, some of the fans of Father Martin get upset when you mention that fact, but it is nonetheless a fact.
		Father Martin wrote under various pen names, books, and articles in support of the subversive element that was present at the Second Vatican Council.
		And he was on that payroll.
		And at some point in his life, he clearly came to the realization that, whoa, I'm on the wrong side here.
		And he switched sides pretty quickly.
		So his information wasn't just because he was a Jesuit and worked with popes.
		It was because he actively worked with the very subversive forces that he later in his life worked to combat, realizing the mistake he had made, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you heard anything about how his life ended?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's a lot of rumor there.
		I know.
		You know, there were apparently some very shady characters around him.
		And I do know that from what I've heard, this is just rumor, I don't know for sure, but he was getting ready to, along with another priest, expose a particular individual who was, I believe, a bishop.
		And then he met his unfortunate and sudden demise.
		It was suspicious, to say the least.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow, you are adding to what I had heard.
		I heard that the fall itself down the steps was suspicious.
		Now, what you have added is a possible motive for it.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Goodness.
		All right, so how's it going with you?
		Hopefully you don't have any steep staircases close by?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Fortunately, I live on a one-level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good for you.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		But I do have enemies, and most of them are just online people who like to attack me, claiming I'm a Jesuit plant when I've never been a Jesuit in my life.
		I had a group of occultists who attempted a smear campaign against me at one point.
		And, you know, the usual hyper-fundamentalist crowd who attack you with, you know, whatever they can, make things up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I assume this is mainly because of your public stance.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes, exactly.
		You know, when you, as you know, when you're in the public eye, especially on the internet, it's anything goes.
		It's free-for-all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, how well I know.
		How well I know.
		All right.
		Let me begin by asking this really important question.
		Is Satan real?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		I do believe in a very real, literal Satan, just as I believe in a literal, real historical Adam.
		I don't know what Father Martin's position on that was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, he was with you all the way.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A very real Satan.
		In fact, he once made a comment, Father, that he would walk down the streets in New York City, and he would see people, and somehow he would Know instinctively or in a way that only he could know that he was looking at what he called a perfectly possessed person.
		You ever hear that phrase?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, of course.
		Yeah, I mean, anyone who's involved in exorcism ministry for any length of time, and I want to stress that that is just a small aspect of an overall sacerdotal ministry.
		But anyone who's been involved with it for any length of time develops a discernment and is able to recognize the signs of possession.
		And there are some who propose a perfect possession, which means that the demonic entity is in full and complete control 24 hours, seven days a week, and that the personality of the host is subdued and is no longer in control of the faculties.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He seemed to feel that it more or less meant that the individual involved had made their deal.
		Whether it was for work, it was for fortune, it was for lust, whatever the deal was.
		They had made their deal.
		They're either satisfied with it or it doesn't matter because they've been taken over at that point.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		A perfect possession is only possible when the person voluntarily gives themselves over to this in exchange for money, fame, whatever it might be, as you said.
		Those cases are rare, but I think that demonic activity is becoming more prevalent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did we lose your audio?
		I'm not hearing you now.
		That's not good.
		Hello, Father.
		Okay, well, my guest is Father David Ashcraft, and we apparently have lost connection with him.
		Yes, I see there's a little thing that says there is a problem with this call.
		Hold on until we can re-establish the call.
		So I'm sure that's what it's trying to do right now.
		We were discussing people who are perfectly possessed, and I think you're back now.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I could hear you the whole time.
		It just wasn't allowing me to speak.
		I see.
		But demonic activity is becoming more common.
		And I think it's because our society and our culture is moving more and more away from godly principles, away from morality, away from any sense of ethics, any objective values whatsoever into this post-modern milieu of absolute relativism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		He said that the number of people possessed or in trouble in New York City had risen by some astronomical number.
		Now, this is years ago, and he said it was increased by 800%, which I found incredible.
		I don't know how he gets those numbers, but...
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I just know that we see more cases now.
		However, I still want to say that the number of claims compared to the number of actual cases is still there's a wide margin there.
		The number of claims that I receive in a year is just astronomical.
		But once they're investigated, generally you find that there's something else going on here.
		Anything ranging from psychological issues all the way down to just absolute fakery and attention seeking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		I'm sure there's a lot of that.
		I mean, in all areas that we examine on this program, we get a lot of that.
		You know, there's a lot of fakery.
		It's hard to sift through it all.
		However, it's very important to sift through it all.
		As a good friend of mine who does a show after mine called Richard C. Hoagland says, all it takes is one white crow to prove there are white crows.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Yeah.
		I mean, if there's only one case of demonic possession in my entire lifetime, then that's one too many, in my opinion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are there degrees of possession?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Well, not necessarily possession, but demonic activity, influence over the individual, everything, starting from diabolic temptation.
		In other words, a temptation to do things that goes beyond normal temptations that becomes consuming.
		Something you just can't avoid anymore.
		It's in your every thought.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like drugs, alcohol, women.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes, any of those things.
		Those are all hooks, enticements to deeper demonic influence.
		And that generally leads to obsession.
		You know, you're obsessed with a particular level or area of sinful activity, self-destructive activity.
		And the next step beyond that, well, would be oppression first.
		I would say oppression is first, precedes obsession.
		Oppression is, the best way to think about that is you've read the story of Job and how Job was attacked in sacred scripture and Satan took away everything from him, his children, his wife, everything.
		That is a biblical example of oppression.
unidentified		Now, in the current world, Father, hold your thought.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're at a break, so hold tight.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Want to take a ride exclusively on the Dark Matter Digital Network?
		This is Midnight in the Desert with your host, Art Bell.
		To call Art, please dial 1-952-225-5278.
		That's 1-952-Call Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, please don't call yet, actually.
		That's too activist, isn't it?
		Just wait.
		We'll get deeper into the interview, and then we will indeed open the phone lines.
		Not to worry.
		Once again, Father Ashcraft, and great to have you back, and great to have you on the show.
		I think we had just discussed Job a little bit, and I don't think we're done, so proceed.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we were talking about oppression and the fact that that is one of the levels of demonic activity.
		And that would work out in modern life much the same way it did for Job.
		You might experience a loss of job, a loss of livelihood.
		You lose your wife.
		She leaves you.
		Things like this.
		And just overwhelming and persistent problems surrounding your life could be indications of demonic oppression.
		And then the final, the end game is actual possession.
		And demonic possession can either be transient or perfect, as we've discussed.
		And in transient possession, that is the most common.
		The demonic entity enters and leaves the body intermittently in order to carry out its desires, whatever that might be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Father, can I ask an opinion question, and that is, how many people do you think are in various types of asylums who have been adjudged by somebody in a position to do so that they are crazy, they are mentally disturbed, but they're actually possessed?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I think it's not unreasonable to say that there is a good portion of people who are in psychiatric facilities who are under some form of demonic attack.
		That's not to say all of them, because, I mean, there are many things that can masquerade or be mistaken for demonic activity that are actually psychological or environmental.
		You know, things like temporal lobe epilepsy, Geschwin syndrome, bipolar, manic depression, etc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But a doctor, a psychiatrist, is almost never going to diagnose demonic possession.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, true enough, but there are a growing number of psychologists who have recognized the spiritual dimension to some of the approaches to psychotherapy and that in some cases exorcism has ended what they perceived to have been a purely psychological issue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder when they write up the final report if they really include the fact that whatever cure or improvement was achieved was because of exorcism.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		There have been a couple.
		I do know of a couple.
		I can't remember the specific psychiatrist names off the top of my head.
		I was reading about a report the other day.
		One of the reports is available at my website, and there's also a link there to another website on the right-hand side there that will take you to another article by the other psychiatrists.
		So they're both there for people who are interested in reading them.
		They're pretty lengthy, very clinical, but they do explain the role of exorcism in psychotherapy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I would think generally, kind of like, again, close encounters of the third kind with the air controller asking the pilot, do you want to report a UFO?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the pilot thought about it for a month and said, no, I don't want to report one of those.
unidentified		It's kind of like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I've got to get this out, so let me get it out.
		The other day, I interviewed a leader of the Church of Satan.
		This woman, articulate, very well-spoken, obviously well-educated, says that she was some time ago the High Priestess of the Church of Satan.
		She was Anton Levay's lover.
		She is the mother of his son.
		And she presently is the chairmistress of the Council of Nine.
		Now, when we booked that interview, I thought, oh, this is going to be some really scary stuff.
		I mean, we're talking chains rattling, hellfires burning, that sort of thing.
		The interview turned out to be Anything but that.
		And in fact, I asked, I think the first question I asked was, do you so you worship Satan?
		She said, no.
		I paused.
		I thought about it for a moment.
		I thought, well, now wait a minute.
		Here you are, head of the church, church of Satan, and you don't worship Satan.
		Well, okay, so that's and what I'm going to do is I'm going to let you hear just a moment of that interview, and then I'll come back and get your impressions of it.
		This was the most easygoing attempting to be likable Satanist that you're ever going to hear in your whole life.
		Well, let me play this and then we'll talk more.
		But again, I'm going to keep going down this road as far as I can take you.
		And I will ask, is it possible to use a person's essence, bodily fluids, whatever, essence, in a positive way for them as well as a negative way for them?
blanche barton ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		We have three basic rituals.
		We have lust, compassion, and destruction.
		So the point of going into the ritual chamber in the first place is not primarily to move the universe in the way you want it to.
		I mean, that's, of course, good as a side effect, but it's a psychodrama.
		Let me give you an example.
		Okay, so someone at work is really working against you.
		Someone is telling the boss lies about you.
		They're making you look bad.
		They're hiding your materials.
		They're really going out of their way to hurt you.
		So you're really frustrated.
		You're thinking about this person all the time.
		You can't eat.
		You can't sleep.
		You're really angry.
		And you feel impotent.
		So you go into the ritual chamber.
		You do a destruction ritual.
		You concentrate on this person.
		And you wish them all the bad, bad things to happen to them.
		And you let it go.
		You let all of it go.
		You build up all of that energy.
		And like a good orgasm, you just flow out.
		It goes out into the universe.
		And then you let go of the rope.
		It's done.
		As far as you're concerned, it is done.
		It's a done deal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As far as you're concerned.
blanche barton ▲ ● ▼		You've spoken to the universe.
		It's going to happen.
		Whatever's supposed to happen will happen.
		So next week, you go into work, and this Shimo has been promoted and moved to Hawaii.
		So did your curse work?
		Well, you don't have to deal with him anymore, do you?
		So, and maybe he'll get caught in a wonderful storm in Hawaii, and maybe his life will be a good thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So maybe you go in next week, and he was hit by a Mac truck, now has about 35 broken bones, and is in traction in the hospital.
blanche barton ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
blanche barton ▲ ● ▼		You know, that's where it goes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Well, I love the fact that you can bring up the rosiest metaphor possible when discussing somebody you don't like.
		So that's the way the interview went, Father.
		And at the end of the interview, people were saying, oh, my goodness.
		That really was something, there was nothing scary about that.
		In fact, sounded kind of good.
		And, you know, I thought, boy, I didn't have a good show, did I?
		And so the next day, I did something I never do.
		I listened to my own program again, and it hit me like a brick about three-quarters of the way through it, that Satan is a trickster.
		And so it would make sense that the head of the church, the representative of Satan, would be the very same.
		And boy, that is exactly what she was.
		And then as I listened to the show, I really began to get creeped out because she was so well-spoken for the bad guy.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, as you mentioned, Satan is a trickster and he will come as an angel of light.
		And Scripture says he will do that so that he can deceive the very elect.
		You know, the fact of the matter is sin, evil, feels good.
		Otherwise, nobody would do it.
		I mean, that's just how it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are dead on the money.
		When I was doing the show, you know, I was looking for a scary show.
		What I got was a scary show.
		It just didn't hit me until the next day.
		And I went, oh, my God, what did I do?
		I wasn't paying attention.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I think a lot of people are not looking beyond the fluff in what she had to say to the philosophy that lies underneath it, which is definitely a malevolent approach to humanity just on a purely anthropological level,
		not even to speak of the spiritual level there.
		You know, with Satanism, you have two distinct schools there.
		The Levy type tend to look at it from a sort of psycho-spiritual perspective, which is what you had from this woman.
		And then you have people like Michael Aquino, who recognizes the literal Satan and sets out to worship and embody the character of the literal biblical Satan.
		And you've just got flip sides of the same coin there.
		One's just a little bit more honest about what they're worshiping than the other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Same end person, though, huh?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Indeed so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Entity, I guess, is the right word.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As an exorcist, I would guess that you have, in effect, encountered Satan.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Not him himself, and that, I would say, is pretty rare.
		I only know of a few cases where the entity claimed to have been Satan himself.
		And even in those cases, you have to take that with a grain of salt.
		Theologically speaking, we tend to think that Satan doesn't personally possess anyone, although there is some speculation that he will in the person of the Antichrist.
		Rather, what we find in cases of demonic possession are the fallen angels who followed Satan and became demons.
		They are the ones carrying out this work.
		And they do so essentially because they envy and hate humanity at the same time.
		We have envy that they don't.
		Oh, I'm sorry.
		Go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, let me stop you there and let's talk about that.
		Envy and hate.
		They envy us.
		Why?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, we possess something that angels don't.
		That is a soul.
		And we were also created, as scripture says, in the image and likeness of God.
		Angels were not.
		And because we have such an intimate connection like that to the Creator, Satan and these angels who followed him, scripture says it was a third, they grew angry.
		They hated us because they felt, because they were so magnificent, that they should be the rulers and they should be the beloved of the Creator.
		And yet they weren't.
		Satan himself, scripture tells us, was created with the essence of music in his being, and that he was an angel of light and, you know, a very beautiful angel.
		And so the envy that must just rack his being at the fact that humanity was created in the image and likeness of God and he wasn't, and he feels that he is more powerful, he is more beautiful, he should be more beloved.
		But that's not the case.
		And so that's where you get this envy and hatred of humanity.
		And that's why the demons attack humans.
		They want to, in whatever way they can, mar, destroy the image of God in man.
		That's what that war is about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		All right.
		I know this is a really dumb question to ask a priest, but one that I'm going to ask anyway.
		You are absolutely convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that we have souls.
unidentified		Yes.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And that's, of course, because I approach this from a place of faith.
		Although there are some out there in the, I guess you would say, scientific community who approach the subject of metaphysics and try to prove things scientifically.
		I don't really need that because I tend to take a biblical approach, a biblical worldview.
		And so for me, when scripture says this is so, then I accept that is so on the.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I so envy you for that absolute knowledge that you have.
		I so envy that.
		I really do.
		I want to believe.
		Now, conversely, strangely perhaps, and this will turn into a question.
		You know, I have cats.
		People have dogs, cats, various animals.
		But when I look into their eyes and when I watch their behavior and I see these cats have love.
		They have just about every emotion that one can have without the ability to express it vocally.
		In other words, they have everything that would make me believe that if there are souls, if we have them, that they do too.
		I'm not going to get you in trouble here, am I?
		By asking, I mean, do they have souls?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		You know, you're asking a question that you could ask a number of theologians to get different answers.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Let's be honest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That sounds a little like a wiggle, but okay.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Scripture does mention animals being in the eternal kingdom, the kingdom of God, after the final battle, as everybody knows at Armageddon.
		You know, it talks about the lion lying down with the lamb.
		So, you know, do they have souls?
		I can't answer that positively.
		That's something that I think Scripture is fairly silent on as far as addressing particularly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have to say that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's very clear about human beings, but animals, not so much.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and just speaking from opinion here, I would say no, but that doesn't preclude them from being in the kingdom, obviously.
		They're going to be there.
		Scripture has that imagery.
		But you're right, they are capable of a certain degree of emotion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see it all.
		I mean, we could tick through the emotions.
		We don't need to.
		I mean, love, envy, just sadness, happiness, joy.
		You could just go right on through them, except for The ability to vocalize these things, they've got them all.
unidentified		And I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Being such an animal, I'm a very big animal lover.
		And when you look into their eyes, it feels like you're looking at as much life as when you're looking at a person.
		So I don't know.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there are those who would argue that those emotions are the effect of a soul.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		And so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, exactly.
		All right, we're at a breakpoint.
		It's a good one, too.
		Father, hold on.
		Father Ashcraft is my guest.
		And I knew he was going to be good, and he's good.
		We haven't even begun to talk about what you do about possession.
unidentified		Of course, I'm talking about exorcism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stay right where you are, because it's ahead.
unidentified		Late December, back in 63.
		What a very special time for me.
		I'll remember what night.
		It's not radio, but it is what's next to cast your ray of light into the darkness.
		Please call 1-952.
		Call Art.
		That's 1-952-225-5278.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's in some cases radio, actually.
		Welcome back.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Midnight in the Desert.
		Father Jack Ashcraft is my guest and knew this would be a good show.
		I just knew it would be, and it is.
		All right, Father.
		You mentioned Armageddon, and you mentioned that you thought the influence of Satan was increasing, as did Father Martin.
		I wonder if that final day that nobody knows when it will be, Armageddon itself, simply occurs when his influence becomes predominant, when it takes over, and then that's it.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly a study of eschatology will tell us that society throughout the world will grow increasingly godless, immoral, and whether knowingly or not, everyone, every single person in this world is involved in spiritual warfare, whether they know it or not.
		And so, you know, depending on your position in that war, in that battle, depends on what side you're going to be fighting for, knowingly or unknowingly, and what the end result will be for you personally.
		But certainly, the scripture tells us that the culture throughout the world will become increasingly godless, malevolent.
		And I think we see that today.
unidentified		You know, when you...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look what they're doing.
		I mean, even within their own stated belief systems, what they're doing is all whacked out and wrong, lopping off heads, doing the very worst things to people you can imagine, lighting them on fire.
		Oh, God, it's awful.
		Absolutely awful.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and what you have there is you have a people who are calling evil good and good evil.
		And, you know, they justify everything from rape and murder to theft.
		I mean, pedophilia.
		All of this is somehow in this twisted worldview that they have, somehow a godly thing.
		And this is what scripture tells us is going to occur in the world.
		And, you know, I'm going to be politically incorrect here.
unidentified		Oh, you might.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Coming from the biblical worldview, then I also have to say that the homosexual agenda, which goes far beyond asking for mere rights, to, in some cases, forced participation in the lifestyle to one degree or another, that is indicative of what Scripture tells us would happen.
		And conversely, let's point the finger at the church as well.
		Churches not doing what they should do.
		In my opinion, no one should go hungry or homeless who lives within five, ten miles of a church.
		Now, if you think about how many churches we have in just the United States, we wouldn't need a welfare state if the church would simply fulfill Christ's command to love our neighbor as ourselves, feed them, clothe them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the church from the Vatican on down certainly has plenty of money, don't they?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, the institutional churches certainly do.
		And, you know, I think that also contributes to the problem.
		I think this current Pope is indicative of the problem in Western culture in general.
		He is not, obviously not a traditional Catholic in any sense of the term.
		He is not a biblical Christian in any sense of the term.
		The man is at best a post-modernist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know he's been shocking the Catholic world.
		I mean, really shocking it.
		My wife, by the way, father, is Catholic.
		She's a Filipino.
		And they're very Catholic.
		I mean, really Catholic.
		And several things the Pope has said Have for her been very shocking, and I guess for a lot of Catholics.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Certainly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But is this I don't know how to put this.
		Is it the church itself just becoming starting to become politically correct?
		What's going on?
		Well, what's going on indeed?
		We lost Father Ashcraft.
		That's all right.
		He'll be back.
		Stipe is attempting to reconnect.
		This is really something that has puzzled me.
		By no stretch of the imagination, am I a Catholic?
		I sort of looked at it, as you all know.
		Hi, Father, you're back.
		I'm certainly not a conservative Catholic, and I'm barely a Catholic, if one at all.
		My wife is.
		Now, what is the church doing, Father?
		Are they becoming politically correct?
		I mean, what's going on in the church?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, this goes back to the Second Vatican Council.
		There was a document released that was published under the title AA 1025, The Memoirs of an Anti-Apostle.
		And it was the account of a nun who was also a nurse who was tending a dying priest.
		And he proceeded to tell her his past and what he had done.
		And what came out of this, out of his story, was that he was one of a number of men who were actually Soviet, I guess you could call infiltrators,
		who their job was to enter the seminaries, become priests, move up through the ranks, and to destroy the social teaching of the church by first attacking the theology of the church.
		And they were joined in this by a number of Freemasons.
		And as a matter of fact, there were a lot of Freemasonic observers at the Second Vatican Council as well.
		So if you know anything about church history, the Masonic Lodge has historically been a self-avowed enemy of the Catholic faith.
		And so what emerged from this priest's story was that he, along with a number of other men, had infiltrated seminaries, had arisen through the ranks, and that they were the ones responsible for the destruction wrought at the Second Vatican Council, which is really the root of the rot that we see today.
		And so really what you see in Vergoglio, otherwise known as Francis I, what you see in Vergoglio is the fruit of that revolution at the Second Vatican Council.
		And what he is talking is patented social Marxism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But okay, but here's a point of confusion for me.
		Doesn't the church have values that could be said to be somewhat akin to communist values?
		We all know communism doesn't work, but in terms of taking care of everybody, right, there are certain values that one could imagine are shared.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly, certainly.
		But the problem is that from the purview of Marxism, that means taking from everyone so that everyone essentially is equally poor.
		Right.
		And eventually, when you enforce that through government, what happens is eventually there's no wealth to share.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Of course, that's correct.
		I mean, it doesn't work.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
		And so the church, Christianity is not against wealth per se, but the love of wealth, the love of money.
		And there have been some political ideologies to emerge from traditional Catholic teaching to sort of bridge that gap.
		And one of those is distributism.
		And I can't speak on that topic really.
		I can't speak to it very well because I don't know it well enough to do so.
		But it's a fascinating topic.
		And it essentially says that the best way to help everyone is to place property into the hands of as many people as possible.
		And so it's, I guess distributism sort of gets close to socialism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		But it avoids the extremes of Marxism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know the love of money is a problem.
		And, you know, I'm doing okay.
		I've got money.
		But it has never been the driving force.
		In fact, I really don't care about it.
		As long as I have enough to live and eat and my family's okay, that's good enough for me.
		I think there is a difference, isn't there?
		I mean, if you're doing what you're doing with the sole goal being enriching yourself, then it's the love of money.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Certainly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If money just comes to you as a side benefit of what you're doing, I hope it's not the same thing.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I mean, as you said, we'll take you as an example.
		Yes.
		You don't need to be doing this radio program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not at all.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there's nothing financial in it for you.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, you have a comfortable life at this point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
		You're absolutely right.
		I'm doing this only for the love of radio.
		Now, I hope that's not a sin.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		No, not at all.
		And the thing is that because you do it, because you love it, you enjoy it, that comes through.
		And the product is better, I think, than if it was merely done with a view to generating money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Money.
		I surely hope that's true.
		Yes.
		And it's true of me.
		I just hope that it's true.
		I mean, if money comes to you anyway, I hope it doesn't doom you.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, unfortunately, it's not true of many in the ministry.
		Televangelists are a lot of, I mean, come on.
		There's all the evidence we need.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're right about that.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Boy, have I. You actually had one on your show once that I'm sure I have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've had just about everybody, so.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this particular individual's quite, he and I have clashed.
		I know him on a personal level.
		And I happen to know the man he's driven by money, and it's a shame.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would think that that would be so, well, maybe not so obvious to the individual named.
		Let's not name him.
		All right, I'm not.
		Let's move on a little bit.
		I do want to talk about exorcism.
		You know, people have an image of exorcism which most likely, almost certainly, has been formed by movies, I would say, right?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it like the movies?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought not.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		You're not going to see heads spinning and the pea soup type thing.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		You know, you can see demonstrative outbursts, and you can sometimes witness objects moving, strange things such as words forming underneath the skin of the possessed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you seen that?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I haven't personally seen that.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		No, I have heard several different voices emerge at the same time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At the same time?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Oh, my.
		Where you would hear two or three different voices speaking at once, saying different things.
		And I've witnessed objects move, but I've not witnessed the skin issue, though there are priests who have, and I do know some of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is going to sound strange to you, but I hope that what you're saying about possession is absolutely true.
		And the reason I hope it's true is because if it is, and if Satan is real, then God is real.
		And that's one of the reasons, by the way, I interviewed the Satanist.
		She just disappointed me terribly by not admitting that she worships Satan as though he's not real at all.
		It was, at the time, anyway, terribly disappointing for me.
		I actually want to believe in all of this because it leads inevitably back to God being real.
		And I guess that's what I'm searching for, Father.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm glad you're searching.
		That's a positive.
		And, you know, there is much evidence that points to the existence of God.
		Now, can we prove the existence of God 100% scientifically?
		No, we cannot.
		Conversely, science cannot disprove the existence of God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about 70%?
		Listen, we've got a break.
		Hold that thought.
unidentified		70%.
unidentified		Settle for 65, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Talking about actual proof, of course, it's going to be very difficult.
		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, this is Midnight in the Desert.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		Midnight Matters are best handled by those that understand how to move in the darkness like Art Bell.
		To call the show, please dial 1-952-CALLART.
		That's 1-952-225-5278.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Father Jack Ashcraft is my guest.
		Father, welcome back.
		Yeah, you're taking some heat here.
		Ryan from Wenatchee asks, would you ask Father Ashcraft to tell you his academic credentials?
		Where did he get his bachelor's degree and his master's in divinity?
		Why does he care about the current Pope if he doesn't believe that it's proper?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I attended a private City of Acantus seminary program.
		It was a mentorship program.
		It is not accredited because we were not seeking to achieve academic credentials.
		We were looking for any city of Acantus seminary, such as Most Holy Seminary or Most Holy Trinity Seminary in Florida, they're not accredited because you're not looking for some sort of academic standing.
		The function of a seminary under traditional Catholic teaching is to produce priests, priests for the church.
		And so the notion of accreditation and things like that didn't come into the question because we are not academics.
		We are sacramental Priests.
		Our bishops are sacramental bishops.
		And we take a traditional Catholic approach to the formation of priests.
		It's a seven-year education.
		You know, you study philosophy, study theology, sacramentology, eschatology, etc.
		Now, beyond that, I am currently working toward my master's degree at a seminary in Cincinnati, Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, fine.
		Thank you for the answer.
		Now, on to TJ, who hits us up with really not loving the homophobic bigotry, sigh.
		Years ago, I said on the air and still maintain today, Father, that, you know, if two men or two women want to get married, I don't care.
		I'm not cool with it.
		I don't, you know, it just doesn't personally affect me.
		If it makes them happy and they want to get married and head down that road, which is not all joy in every case, then go ahead.
		I take it you take a very conservative approach to it, and I believe in the Bible that is supported, yes?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes, certainly.
		You know, Scripture is very clear about the nature of homosexuality, and it is not homophobia.
		I am not fearful of homosexuals.
		I do not hate homosexuals.
		I care about the homosexual as much as I do about the alcoholic and, you know, anybody else.
		I also want to point out that homosexuality is just as much a sin as adultery, heterosexual adultery, or heterosexual fornication.
		They're all wrong.
		I look at them all equally.
		They're all wrong.
		I don't hate the fornicator, the heterosexual adulterer, and I don't hate the homosexual.
		And I think that is one of the problems in the discourse on these topics, is that you have one side who wants to get vitriolic and cast aspersions on the people who hold a biblical worldview.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If a gay person comes to you for counsel, do you give it?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Certainly.
		Absolutely I would.
		I'd give it to anyone who came to me.
		I can't address the constitutional issues involved in the recent marriage thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you don't have to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The U.S. Supreme Court's doing that for you.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		So, you know, that out of, you know, I'm not even addressing that.
		The idea, though, that it doesn't affect me, which it might be true for someone who doesn't have a biblical worldview, or even if you're a moderate Muslim who doesn't have an Islamic worldview, or a Hindu, you know, a traditional Hindu who, you know, also takes the same viewpoint.
		The point is that it does affect us, and we're seeing that play out in the courts right now, where we're having people who are running marriage chapels, who are being forced now, told that they have to perform these ceremonies, despite the fact that they have a religious objection, which is provided for in the documents of our country.
		But that's not being respected in the courts.
		And so it does affect the church.
		And one of the proponents of gay marriage, I can't remember his name, but there was an interview with him, and he said, he was asked, will this affect the churches?
		And he said, well, certainly of necessity it will affect the churches.
		And he said it would probably start on the level of their tax-exempt status.
		So, you know, will it affect the church?
		I think it's very possible that it will, and I think we're seeing that play out.
		But, you know, I don't hate homosexuals, and I'm not afraid of them or fearful of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got it.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		And I just find that sort of discourse counterproductive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I take it, though, that if a pair came to you and wanted you to perform such a ceremony, you would not do that.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I cannot do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cannot do that.
		All right.
		It sounds like there is a lot of trouble ahead then.
		Or will the church, what do you think the church will officially do?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's a good question.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I think, personally, I think the fact that the churches are involved in the tax exemption is a mistake to begin with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh, really?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		I don't think churches should have been involved in that.
		Part of the reason is that one of the hooks of that tax exempt status is that churches really cannot legally advocate for any particular political party or candidate.
		And, you know, if churches want to be involved in politics, which, again, I'm not a big fan of that either, then tax exemption is a mistake.
		Beyond that, my personal view is that, and I take a very antinicene view of the church.
		I go back to the apostles and the men who knew the apostles and studied directly with them, and I look at what they had to say of the church, and I take their view.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Father.
		Hold tight.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		I've been wearing moldy with my boots, love and gay.
		All this damn old and fine in love.
		I've been wearing moldy with my boots, love and gay.
		The Night in the Desert spans the world.
		To call us from outside the U.S. and Canada only, use Skype with a headset mic if on a computer and call MITD55.
		That's MITD55.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Father Jack Ashcroft is my guest.
		And I guess I'm getting him confused with Leo, our news guy.
		Not surprising a lot of you did, too.
		Actually, no relation.
		Several have asked.
		All right.
		Father, here we go again.
		Nathan from Austin, Texas asks, could you please ask, Father, if the Catholic Church is corrupt or rotten, does that not give legitimacy to Protestants?
		Are there mistakes in the Bible?
		Women not speaking in church, death for working on Sunday, and so forth?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'll try to condense this a bit.
		The first thing you have to understand is that according to the State of Acantus position, there is no corruption in the church.
		The church was infiltrated.
		The visible institutions were taken over.
		But the church consists of clergy and laity faithful to the true teachings of the faith.
		Therefore, State of Acantus and other traditionalists who reject the changes, who reject the current hierarchy, they are the church.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, but he was speaking to the one, you know, the Vatican one.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		And, well, I mean, the fact that there's corruption there for us proves that it's not the church.
		This doesn't mean there's a defect in scripture or anything like that.
		And I think if I understand the question correctly, nor does that mean that such things as women not holding the priesthood, et cetera, are wrong.
		Nor does that follow.
		What you have with the visible institution that people think of as the Catholic Church is what we call the Novus Ordo, the New Order Church.
		And that's a term they used for their own liturgy.
		And so it's a wholly different religion.
		Does it lend credence to Protestantism?
		No, not necessarily.
		When you consider that state of Acantas believe that the church continues to exist in them, in their midst, in their churches, in their chapels, and with their priests and their lady, no, it wouldn't lend support to Protestantism at all.
		Protestantism actually came out of...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe I can put it that way.
		He's asking about the Vatican's official position on things.
		And you will come back and say, well, the Vatican is not official because I understand that.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I understand what you're saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Because the Vatican is occupied by non-Catholics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're going to get a letter.
		I'm sure of it.
		well alright what do you know about the ability of somebody like Blanche or anybody on the other side able to Well, certainly.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		However, the only way they can have an effect is if the target of that curse is not in a state of sanctifying grace.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		The further they move from Christ and his protection, the more susceptible they are to that sort of an attack.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe it's a comment on the current times, but sorry, it's a target-rich environment.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Oh, certainly.
		Absolutely.
		And I think where there are cases of real curses, you're going to find that, just as you said, that these individuals, these targets, are not in a state of sanctifying grace.
		They're outside that.
		And because of that, there's not much that any priest can do to help them until they get their spiritual lives in order.
		And that, sometimes you will even encounter resistance to that from the people who are actually feeling the effects of a curse or feeling the effects of demonic attack.
		They will still push back when you tell them, here's the remedy, because it requires something of them.
		And let's be honest, the spirit of the age is, I don't want anything required of me.
		I want to do my own thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So coming in and getting in a little wood booth and having a confession just might not do the trick, totally.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		No, certainly not.
		It requires that live what you claim to believe.
		You know, you have to put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.
		You can't simply attend a church.
		You can't simply receive sacraments and go through the motions and expect to be okay.
		It requires more of you.
		There has to be substance, the substance of faith, which is demonstrated by actually living the gospel of Christ.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so in other words, you really are saying, look, you may be possessed or you may be under the influence of a curse or something evil, but unless you change, my showing up as a priest and doing whatever I'm going to do isn't going to do the job.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		No, it certainly won't.
		There's a joint effort there in exorcism, in any type of spiritual warfare intervention.
		It is a joint effort.
		The priest and the person coming to the priest for that help, they have to work together.
		And if that person is not willing to do what it takes to amend their lives, to get their spiritual lives in order, there is nothing any priest can do to help them.
		It's like with perfect possession, and I'm sure Father Martin told you this, there's nothing you can do to help that person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, they've made their deal.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		They have willed themselves in the position they're in.
		And without the active role of their will to reverse that, there's nothing that can be done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so people are always saying they see times coming of, you know, the end days, Armageddon, as it were.
		And frankly, looking around the world today, and maybe it's just, you know, we have short lives.
		We don't live long, but it does seem that even in my lifetime, I have seen so much, I'm now 70, and I've seen so much of a moral and spiritual decline in the world that it does seem like the end days.
		Oh, I see.
		We have the little internet thing come up, so we can't answer that just yet.
		There he is.
		Father, you heard what I said, right?
unidentified		Part of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Also, it's cutting out over there, too, a little bit.
		I said that, you know, I'm 70 years old now.
		I've seen a big spiritual, moral decline in the world.
		Even in our own country now, I don't want to talk politics particularly, but I do want to say this.
		We have this guy now, Trump, and he's just wild man, absolute wild man by any current political standards.
unidentified		And he is way, way ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that people, a lot of them, thankfully, I guess, are so fed up, and I've said this before, I'm going to say it again, that they're virtually politically speaking, and I'll hold it there, they're ready to burn it all down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's why Trump is as popular as he is right now.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, I think you're seeing, and it's not just a social condition.
		I think there's a spiritual condition behind this.
		And it mirrors that which was in Weimar, Germany.
		You know, the same desperation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It might be some of the same.
unidentified		You're right.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		And it's that same desperation that allows for very masterful manipulators like Hitler and Stalin and people like that to come along and really do some damage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You really think we're at that susceptible point?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I think that we're getting close, if not there.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Have you really listened to or viewed some of the things people say on these political message boards?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely, yes.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		There's this visceral desperation mixed with a lot of really bad information out there.
		Disinformation, I would say.
		And, you know, people are willing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I think he just went away again.
		We've got a problem with Skype, and this is kind of abynormal because generally with Skype, it just stays connected.
		That's the way it is.
		It stays connected.
		But in this case, Father Ashcraft goes away for a moment.
		I get a little notice saying, well, there's a problem with this call.
		Hold on while we try to get the call back, and it will re-establish here in a moment.
		I've never quite seen this occur with Skype before.
		But the Internet, of course, is a great connected network, and things can go wrong all over the place.
		All right, Father, you're back again.
		I have no idea what's doing that.
		I was just talking about the interconnected network that we have, and, you know, it just takes one little thing somewhere in that network to go sideways.
		There you go.
		All right.
		Let's quickly get into, while we can, jump to your...
		What would you say was your most frightening case?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good question.
		The most frightening case, I guess, would be not one that to be demonic at all, but one that was brought to me from a television production.
		And I won't name what the production was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't mind if you want to name it.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I don't care.
		Well, it came to me from Paranormal State when that program was on.
		They brought me this case that became sort of infamous in their series.
		It was this young lady who they felt was possessed, and they brought to me some photographs and a synopsis of the case.
		I looked at the photographs, and there were scratches on her body, but they weren't anywhere she couldn't reach.
		And there was a message in one of them scratched into her torso.
		And after reviewing it, I sent it back to them stating I didn't see anything there that was demonic.
		It looked to me like it was psychological.
		Okay.
		They went ahead and ran with it and performed a they called it an exorcism.
		It really wasn't, on their TV show of this young lady.
		Subsequently, they went back and did it again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who did the exorcism?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		The first time, I don't recall the gentleman's name.
		He's deceased now.
		I do know that.
		Second time, it was a Novus Ordo priest who admits that he's not an exorcist, but he went up there and tried to do what he could anyway, without really doing any investigation, obviously.
		And at the end of the day, it turned out that I was correct.
		This girl was seeing a psychologist.
		She was on medication, and her involvement with that program apparently caused her family some trouble in the community they live in.
		And I say that's...
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'm not quite on to it.
		And I was about to ask, and I'm sticking with this because I really want to know, I was about to ask if that was the scariest that he's seen.
		It apparently was, you know, up to the point he was telling us, wasn't real, right?
		In other words, he had adjudged it to be scratches that she could have put on herself.
		Okay, Father, welcome back.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I think that's frightening because.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I was wondering about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It just sounded like it was not a real case.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Right, because you have this paranormal subculture who they think they have a grasp on these things, and they don't.
		And what they do is they ignore the psychological, they ignore the environmental, and as a result, they cause more damage like they did in this case.
		Just think, though, I mean, the best thing we could say about this case was that the girl was suffering from some form of depression, as I understand it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me reword my question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was the most frightening case that you've dealt with that was real?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I would have to say the case of a young lady who, this was in Kentucky, who was experiencing objects levitating in her home, words appearing on the wall,
		and not just witnessed by herself, not just hearsay, but witnessed by several people, including a psychiatrist who was really at a loss as to how it had been produced.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, if I was a psychiatrist and saw something levitate, I'd be calling you or somebody like you right away.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, even with things like that, you'll find that people remain skeptical because there is the role of parapsychology in there.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		It's not unknown for women, especially women going through times of severe stress, to be able to manipulate their environments like that to cause objects to move.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Especially young teenage girls.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		But what really moved this case beyond the parapsychological were the words appearing on the wall.
		That moved it beyond that.
		So for me, that was scary.
		And not scary in that, oh, I'm running away, but just frightening in the demonstrative nature of the case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you or anybody else actually witness the words manifesting on the wall?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That'll do it for me, all right.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		It'll definitely shake you up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can those words be repeated?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		No.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do have a rule on this show, but I wouldn't like them if I heard them, I take it.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		No, and I wouldn't repeat those words anyway.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So, in other words, you've really, you've encountered the real thing.
		There's no question about it.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, absolutely.
unidentified		You know, I hate to say it again, but I will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That actually gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling because if the one is true, the other has to be true.
		You know, that's insufficient to really say, but I really do mean that.
		And I want to ask you about something else.
unidentified		Ghosts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can ghosts, in your opinion, be real in the sense that they are residual or entities of people who were once alive human beings?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, theologically speaking, you have a variety of different opinions on that.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		You have some who believe that ghosts are the spirits of those in purgatory who are seeking our prayers, and so they appear in order to solicit those prayers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stuck in the middle.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		Some others say that ghosts do not appear, that those are purely demonic entities masquerading as the spirits of the dead or our dead relatives in order to mislead us into believing things that are not true.
		And so you have both of those viewpoints of the spiritual realm.
		You find that when you get into these topics theologically, you know, there are all these different schools of thought on this, and one has to simply find what they think fits best.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Father.
		Hold tight.
		We will open the line shortly.
		So if you've got a call, if you've got a question or a statement, all I ask is you be, I want you to be polite.
		All right?
		Be polite.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		This is Midnight in the Desert.
unidentified		Something we do happening.
		Something I can know.
		The dream's coming so true Falling through my brain So I'm falling through Down on the grass Lost my home and a family And you won't be coming back Without love We're going to be right now Want to take a ride from the high desert and the great American Southwest.
		This is Midnight in the Desert, exclusively on the Dark Matter Digital Network.
		To call the show, dial 1-952-CAL ART.
		That's 1-952-225-5278.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it.
		Arthur Jack Ashcraft is my guest.
		And again, I'm going to now give out the phone numbers, and I hope you will join us.
		Actually, you've already joined us.
		The lines are full.
		Nevertheless, the public line is area code 952-225-5278.
		You can get in on Skype ever so easily.
		If you're in North America, America, or Canada, simply enter MITD51.
		That's, as in Midnight in the Desert, M-I-T-D.
		It's not case-sensitive, 51.
		If you are outside the U.S., anywhere outside the U.S., in the greater wide world, please enter MITD55 into Skype.
		That's M-I-T-D-55.
		And in those ways, you can call us.
		Now, let me stress this.
		If you get through and you hear audio, if you hear us doing the show, that means you have made it through.
		So hold on.
		Don't hang up.
		If, on the other hand, you ring and it's never answered, ring some more.
		We'll eventually get to you.
		All right, Father Ashcraft, once again, hopefully his Skype holds up.
		It's kind of coming and going.
		I don't know why, but it's a web of a world we live in.
		And again, I ask you to please just, whatever else you do, be polite because I know you have ignited some tempers out there, Father.
		So away we go.
		Let's answer a few calls, and I've got other questions as well.
		Let's start, I guess, with Matthew somewhere or another on Skype.
		Hi, Matthew.
unidentified		Hello, this is Matthew, the Sunday school teacher, calling from West Virginia.
		Okay.
		I'm just disappointed that this man denies the authority of the Holy See and the false prophet Pope Francis, but will not accept justification by faith alone.
		But that's not my question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let him respond to that, or at least soothe your disappointment or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Father?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, scripture says we're, I'm getting a little bit of feedback there.
		Scripture says that we are justified by grace through faith.
		So I would say that biblically speaking, you're a little off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you hear that, caller?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		I know where he's coming from.
		He's familiar, no doubt, with the Epistle of James.
		But this is a theological difference we won't be able to settle on here.
		I do have a question, however.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, proceed with your question.
unidentified		If he denies the authority of the Holy See, where does he receive the sacraments from?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Father?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, the sacraments don't have to proceed from the authority of the Holy See.
		The sacraments are confected through any priest who has valid apostolic succession.
		And as long as he follows the proper form, has the proper intention, and the proper matter, then a sacrament is confected validly.
		And so any priest who is also validly ordained in apostolic concession can do so as long as he follows those three guidelines.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Allentown, Pennsylvania, on the phone, you're on with Father Ashcraft.
unidentified		Hi, Argus.
unidentified		This is Johnny from PA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I called in when the Satanists was on the other night, and my views are obviously oppositional to hers.
		I'm in the father's corner.
		I'm not going to be oppositional.
		Still challenging, I think, but not oppositional.
		So the first question is in regards to the prophecies of St. Malachi.
		According to those prophecies, the way most people interpret them, Benedict was Gloria Olive.
		We should be on Petrus Romanus, Peter the Roman, who seems to be a very good pope according to the prophecies.
		This pope doesn't seem to be a very good pope, and I'm wondering what his thoughts are.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		The supposed prophecies of St. Malachi, there's a lot of contention there as to whether they are legitimately so or not.
		Some say they're forgeries.
		So I really don't take a position on those particularly because anything of doubtful origin shouldn't really be used as evidence.
		Not to mention, I'm somebody who leans towards scripture more than extra-biblical prophecy.
		And so that's where I will keep my eschatology as the scripture.
unidentified		Can I ask one more?
		Yes.
		The other one would be if someone was under demonic Oppression.
		If I told you my stories, you probably started laughing.
		If someone was under that, what would you suggest they do?
		And I'll kick the answer off the air.
		Okay.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Final?
		Well, without knowing the specific area of oppression, I can't address it well and adequately.
		I would, however, encourage you, if you are experiencing what you believe to be oppression, to examine your life, find out where your weakest point is spiritually, and shore that up because chances are that's where you're being hit.
		Satan always hits people at their weakest point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, that makes sense to me.
		It really does.
		Zachary on Skype, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Get close to your microphone, Zachary, or you'll sound like you're in a tunnel.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		I have a question for Jack.
		Go ahead.
		Why haven't you, if you've experienced these demonic oppressions, recorded them?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he probably has.
		Father, have you recorded or what's the right word?
		I guess evidenced in some way what you've been through?
		Okay, we've lost him, unfortunately, on Skype.
		Sorry about that.
		This is a problem that we normally never experience when doing these kinds of shows.
		I mean, when he is there, this is kind of odd.
		He's absolutely there, and the audio is absolutely perfect, just like he was in the room, and then suddenly it cuts out and it automatically re-established here he is.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, to answer that question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You got it.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I want to say, first of all, that anything that is recorded is only recorded for the bishop, my bishop.
		It would never be made public.
		And I think those who do make that sort of thing public are really violating what I think to be a very private matter.
		It causes a lot of problems for families, as in the case that I mentioned earlier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Father, you were involved, or not involved necessarily, but the film, The Exorcism of Emily Rose, you're suggesting it was a real case, or were you involved in it?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I wasn't involved in the case, no.
		It was a case in the 1970s in Germany.
		And the movie is loosely based on that case.
		And it was a German girl by the name of Anna Lisa Michael.
		And I did converse back and forth, correspond with Dr. Felici.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there he goes again.
		Very annoying to have Skype do this.
		And it may be some expert out there on Skype understands what's going on.
		But I do get a message indicating that his, and there it is, it disconnect.
		And it shows, you know, kind of like your cell phone, you have a bunch of bars, right?
		Five red bars.
		And that's exactly what it's showing, five red bars, as though there is no internet on his side, which sounds like, frankly, a loose cable or something.
		Father, are you back?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm here.
		I can hear you.
		The case was a German girl.
		And I conversed or corresponded with Dr. Felicitas Goodwin, who was an anthropologist who studied the case.
		And unfortunately, it was one of those cases where I tend to agree with the court that the priests were negligent because this young lady did suffer from a form of epilepsy, and they did allow her to stop taking her medication during their exorcism.
		That was a huge error.
		But it was one of those rare cases where you have mental illness, or in this case, it's actually a physical illness, epilepsy, attendant to a case of demonic possession.
		She was possessed, but there was negligence involved there as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the actual number of possessions, real possessions, is, in your opinion, low or simply unknown?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I think it's unknown, but I think it's certainly lower than the number of claims, that's for sure.
		You know, I receive hundreds of claims in a year's time, and there are people that have been trained to investigate those on the temporal level, that is, the psychological, the environmental, etc.
		And I'll forward those cases to those persons who do so.
		And 99% of the cases come back as something quite normative for the human experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hamilton, Ontario, I believe you're on the air.
unidentified		I wondered what Father Ashcroft thought about Fatima, because the reason why I'm asking, I find your program extremely interesting in the sense that I've never heard of a Catholic priest that didn't endorse the Vatican.
		But on the other hand, I have friends who are into the Fatima aspect of it.
		And Fatima, there's a priest in Fort Erie that deals with that.
		But some of the Catholic people, I live near a cathedral, and they say that what he's doing with Fatima, has nothing to do with the Vatican.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		One thing at a time, Caller, I can tell you, trust me, there are other priests that do not endorse what's going on at the Vatican right now or what has been going on for some time.
		And that includes Father Malachi Martin, a very great man indeed.
unidentified		You mentioned him.
		Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.
		His name is Father Martin?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		He's now passed on, Father Malachi Martin.
		Yes.
		So there are many priests like that.
		Second part of your question, Father?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		He had a question about what I thought about Fatima.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Yes.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's an approved apparition of the church, and so the Catholic faithful are endorse it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I think he disappeared again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, the answer to your question is yes.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		I mean, I believe in it too, but the thing is, is that, in other words, the signal I'm getting from you is that just because it may not be endorsed by the Vatican really doesn't mean anything when it comes to God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would let the Father handle that one.
		Thank you.
		Not me.
		He's temporarily disconnected, Father.
		If you can hear me, you might move your wires around a little bit or something.
		I don't know what's going on.
unidentified		You understand what I'm saying, though.
unidentified		I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
unidentified		That's what I thought all the way along.
unidentified		No, when people tell me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he endorses Fatima as the church does.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and as far as traditional Catholic priests who don't accept what's going on with the Vatican, there are entire societies of priests who don't.
		The Society of St. Pius V. I didn't know that.
		The Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen, CMRI.
		On and on.
		There are entire sacerdotal societies who are sede vicantists and reject this.
		There are also the Society of St. Pius X who are not sedive accountists and they recognize the hierarchy, but they reject what they rightly see as their heretical teachings.
		So there are a lot of us out there.
unidentified		Very interesting.
		I'm going to have to Google that word, seda vicatus.
		I've never heard of it, but very interesting is all I can say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Very good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we did explain it at the beginning of the program.
		You might want to go back.
		Bedford, Indiana, I think.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hey, what's going on, mate?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't allow full names on the air.
		We'll just go with Jason.
		You have a question?
unidentified		Yes, I do.
		I am a time traveler.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you?
		Interviewing a Catholic priest.
		What is your question?
unidentified		Arbel?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be me, yes.
unidentified		You are back on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		You are a lifesaver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that would be the father, not me.
		Let me see.
		Let's go here and say, hello, you're on the air.
unidentified		Oh, I just wanted to find out if Father Jack has a contact phone number to get a hold of or an email address.
unidentified		Well, careful, Father.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		There's an email address on my website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is an email address on his website, which is what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, we're not going to get that out on the aircraft.
unidentified		Okay, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As soon as you cough up your social security number, we'll think about that.
unidentified		Okay, right.
unidentified		Okay, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you're very welcome.
unidentified		Sheesh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People answer, ask for.
		Hello there.
		North Hollywood, California, I think.
unidentified		Oh, no, actually, this is Larry from Hawaii again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You need to correct your caller ID.
unidentified		Okay, I'll do that.
		You may remember me.
		I was the second to last caller with Blanche on.
		Okay.
		And anyway, my question for the father is that in regards to this apparent surge in incursion of UFOs and ET abductions, what your view is on that?
		I mean, could it possibly be the coming deception spoke of in New Testament?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, in short, I think that you have several things going on with the UFO and alien abduction phenomenon.
		I think you have governmental projects going on there that are being mistaken for UFOs.
		I think you also have, in the alien abduction scenario, there is a sub ROSA-level psychological operation going on there.
		And then finally, I think that there are some cases that I would say are demonic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'm going to toss one at you.
		Father, I've done a number of, I would call them very, very impressive shows on out-of-body experiences.
		I'm sure you're familiar with the term OBE, right?
		Yes.
		So when that occurs, Father, would it be your view that a person's soul is actually leaving their body or is something else happening?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that what you're looking at there is the spirit leaving the body.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I think it's a dangerous practice.
unidentified		Oh, you do?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought the same thing.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, We have had cases of possession that were caused directly by people experimenting with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'm going to remember this forever because I have a lot of people who talk about OBEs.
		Oh, they're wonderful.
		They say there is a silver cord attached to you that will always bring you back to your body when anything threatening occurs at all.
		And generally people, and I had somebody really who was good with OBEs on recently, and he started out by saying, there is absolutely not a thing in the world dangerous about leaving your body, about doing OBEs.
		And then a little later in the interview, he proceeded to tell me about two or three dangerous things that actually did happen to him when he left his body.
		So you're saying it is dangerous.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		You know, when you leave your body like that, you create a space that something can fill.
		And so the demonic can certainly fill that space.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Let's go to Skype.
		Jeff, you're on the air with Father Ashcraft.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hey, Art.
		It's good to have you back on the air.
		It's awesome.
		Thank you.
		I'll go by the code name Jeff Scepter, Dallas, Texas.
		Okay.
		And my question is, I have had a close friend in the past who she's Catholic and I'm not Catholic myself.
		She started getting into watching a lot of television ministry shows that were strictly about prophecy, the end times kind of stuff, strictly focusing on that as far as a religious aspect.
		And at first it didn't really bother me much, but then she turned really incredibly violent.
		And some of my friends and stuff said they literally thought she was possessed by literally the look in her eyes and whatnot.
		And I'm just wondering, you know, do you have any pointers or anything like that that would stand out as far as, you know, I mean, you see the movies like Exorcist and stuff like that, and you see all these crazy movie drama things, but what is possessed?
		What do you see on that?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, it varies from person to person.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		There are some typical signs we look for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are those?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, some of those are speaking a language that they have never studied, especially dead languages, knowledge of things that they couldn't know normally, things that are secret or hidden, and of course the ability to move objects, things like that.
		There is, and I want to address one of the things he's mentioned here, is this, there can be a morbid preoccupation with the end times and with the demonic.
		And that morbid preoccupation itself can be a doorway to demonic activity.
		And that's because there's no balance in spiritual life.
		And there is an entire industry out there in what I call fringe evangelicalism that focuses on this stuff almost entirely.
		And the substance of these people's faith is in the various theories that are proposed and the books that these authors put out month after month.
		And when that's the substance of your faith and it's focused on the demonic and the dark, inevitably that's going to have an effect on you, even if it's just psychological.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Late on a break, so hold on, Father.
		We'll be right back.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Father Ashcraft is my guest.
unidentified		We'll be just a moment.
		I realize the best part of life is to thin your slice.
		And it don't get so much, but I'm not letting go.
		I believe there's so much to believe.
		To initiate a dialogue sequence with Art Bell, please coordinate your Valanges and call 1-952-225-5278.
		That's 1-952-CALLART.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Father, it's going to be a very short break this time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's take a, I guess, a quick call.
unidentified		What should it be?
unidentified		Well, we'll go here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go to the phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, you're on with Father Jack Ashcraft.
unidentified		Hey, how you doing, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing okay, sir.
unidentified		What's up?
unidentified		Let me start by saying first, great to have you back, and then I got a question for Father Ashcraft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Proceed.
unidentified		I do ghost hunting, and I know, am I allowed to say other TV programs on here or not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I don't care.
unidentified		Okay, I do ghost hunting.
unidentified		I know he's been involved with ghost adventures, and I'm wondering what his opinion of ghost hunting is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Father?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I dissuade people from doing so.
		I told the people at Ghost Adventures the same thing, that they should stop doing this, that they weren't dealing with ghosts, and that it was dangerous.
		But of course, when you're making a living at that, you're not going to listen to anything I have to say.
unidentified		Well, how about me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I talk about these kinds of things.
		As a matter of fact, I have people on the air who do EVPs.
		In fact, we're about to do a show on EVPs.
		You know what those are, right, Polly?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, of course.
		Discussion of the topic isn't the problem.
		It's when you're out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, it's something, and then you went away.
unidentified		I guess we lost him again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I guess we did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I took it from what he said when he was there that he doesn't want to be involved in anything hunting ghosts on TV or otherwise.
unidentified		Okay, I'm just curious, so then why did he go on the show?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a good question.
		If we had him back, I would ask.
		What did he do on the show, do you recall?
unidentified		He was actually helping them with their investigations and talking with people.
		Well, maybe after.
		Whether people.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I was.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		And they asked me to help on a case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		Okay, and how did that work out?
		Or is it the one we talked about?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		No, it was a different thing, completely.
		This was just a property, and they asked me to bless the property, which I did.
		And that includes a minor exorcism.
		And it got marketed as a big exorcism issue.
unidentified		Gotcha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's television.
		All right.
		Father, hold on.
		I'm sorry the brakes are so close together, but we got them squeezed.
		We'll be right back.
		is Midnight in the Desert.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		We had to get out before the
		Now that you got away coming to you at the speed of light in the darkness, this is Midnight in the Desert with Art Bell.
		Now, here's Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here I am.
		Sorry about the closing brakes, but I thought there was an emergency situation at the network.
		Anyway, Father Ashcraft is here, I hope.
		We've been kind of on and off, but I suspect right now is on.
		Father?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		That's within.
		I wanted to say something, Art.
		Just a preface before we go any further.
		I know that my answers have been very measured, and you can probably see that I am carefully choosing my words and how I answer things.
		And there is a reason for that.
		I have been the target of death threats in the past that have been reported to local police.
		And when I consider that and I consider what Father Martin went through as a result of his candor, I have to be measured.
		So please understand that and don't feel like I'm trying to shortchange you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not short-changing me.
		Death threats.
		Death threats why, Father?
		Over what issue?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Several.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Mainly my opinion about the Vatican.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly Father Martin held a very similar opinion, and I guess we can imagine what might have happened to him.
		So I do understand.
		Trust me, I do understand.
		Kurt, on Skype, you're on the air with Father.
		Hello?
		Oh, my Mew button on again.
		Okay.
		Sorry about that.
		Don't leave it on when you're calling a radio program.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My goodness gracious.
unidentified		I should have learned by now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me turn your thing down here.
unidentified		Okay, good.
		Hey, are gay people going to hell?
		What do you believe?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Tell me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wish he was here to answer.
		He has blinked out on us.
		He may be hearing us.
		Father, the question was, are gay people going to hell?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Are gay people going to hell?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the question.
unidentified		I'll have another one too later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, just hold on.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Let me preface this by saying that the fall of humanity had an effect on everyone, every single person in existence.
		That fall did not just have spiritual implications, but physical.
		We grow old, we get diseases, we die, we get psychological problems, a whole host of things as a result of the fall.
		I tend to view homosexuality if there is indeed a genetic component.
		I tend to view it in light of the fall of humanity.
		It is an effect of the fall, just like the common cold would be an effect of the fall.
		Now, having said that, is a homosexual going to go to hell?
		Not necessarily.
		If the homosexual is not acting on the homosexual desires, they're doing their best to live the gospel of Christ, then they have as much opportunity to achieve salvation as anybody else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let me stop you cold, Father, and ask you if science conclusively proves that homosexuality is a genetic matter, that, yes, people have desire, but it's driven by a genetic predisposition.
		If that is proven absolutely, then wouldn't that affect your opinion?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		It would just, as I said, I would view that as part of the effects of the fall of man.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		And the different things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if it was a genetic-driven situation, this is the way they were born, this is the way they are, that is that, then surely no fair God would doom them to hell.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, the scripture still says that it's sinful to act on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, it was written a long, long time ago, Father, before genetic science came along by fair margin.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		And taking a strict biblical worldview as I do, you know, we can also look at fornication and adultery being results of the fall as well.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		There's still no less sins just because, you know, we're somehow disposed to committing these acts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's fair.
		I mean, you could say a man is driven, some men, a lot of men, even me, when I was in my 20s, driven to just about chase anything with a skirt.
		So anyway, caller, you got another question.
		I don't.
		He's no Father Malachi.
unidentified		I'm just going to end the call now.
		Goodbye.
		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right.
		So he is no Father Malachi.
		He doesn't say he is Father Malachi.
		Nope.
		And what you're getting is an honest opinion, whether you like it or not.
		And I do understand that, look, we live in a different world these days.
		I do disagree with you on gays, Father.
		And that's okay.
		I have to live with that disagreement, I guess.
		But you do understand that in this day and age, you're going to take, and you're gone, so this isn't fair.
		I was going to say, in this day and age, and I'll say it anyway, you're going to take an awful lot of heat for taking that position.
		But I also understand that that position is, I guess, backed up by what is written in the Bible.
		So when you do come back, I think I'm going to ask if everything written in the Bible is to be taken literally.
		And so I'm going to ask that.
		Did you hear my question, Father?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so is everything written in the Bible to be taken absolutely literally in your view?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or is it possible that over thousands of years some things that were written just might have been a view of somebody at that time and not the Word of God?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's not an option left to a Catholic or any other Christian.
		To say that would be to undermine the inerrancy and inspiration of sacred scripture.
		And if we say that about one portion of Scripture, then we have to call into question the entirety of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But man has fallacies, right?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Man does, certainly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, these words, I don't know that they all came directly from God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were written and possibly interpreted by man.
unidentified		Ah.
unidentified		Aw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What a poor time to have it to blink out.
		I really hate that.
		In other words, some of what was written in the Bible certainly was not the direct word of God.
		Not all of it was the direct word of God.
		Surely some of it has been interpreted, transcribed by man, and we know that man is not perfect.
		So you would take every word in the Bible as literal, Father, right?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I think to use the term literal is a mistake.
		We take the viewpoint in a scripture, as the church always has, that it is divinely inspired in its original autographs, and that God guided the authors to write what it was in his will for man to know about his will, his person, and his plan.
		And that while he allowed man to use the language that was common to man at that time, that the information contained therein is inerrant and infallible.
		And that is Orthodox Christian teaching across the board.
		That's not just me.
		That is Christianity across the world, Orthodox Christianity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess.
		You know, that is where I will differ with you as well.
		I just can't believe that it could be that infallible.
		And I can't have faith that it is that infallible.
		And that is my sin, I guess.
		Guthrie, Oklahoma, you're on the air with Father Ashcraft.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Guthrie.
		Oh, there you are.
		Okay.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		Yes, sir.
		Mr. Bell, I just wanted to say it's an honor.
		I used to listen to you when I was very young.
		In 1997 through 1999, I heard your interview with Father Malachi.
		And I was barely graduating from high school.
		I am now 34 years old, and you are a legend.
		My mother's been listening to you for a while.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, sir.
		Please, I appreciate the greetings, but we have little time.
		And if you have a question for the father, I'd appreciate it.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		Father Ashcroft, what I have to ask is this one simple situation.
		God gave us the ability to have free will.
		He gave us the ability to think for ourselves and do what we want to do and have the ability to be as good as we want to be or as sinful as we want to be.
		And from what I was told by one very intelligent minister that I ran across in my lifetime, I was told that the only way that he can truly do that was to remove himself and remove all evidence of himself of his existence to be able to give us the ability to have free will.
		Because if we were to look up in the sky, it would be like a police officer looking down and us saying, yes, you've got to do what you have to do because I'm watching you.
		If he had the ability to do that, and if he truly removed himself from our lives so that we had the ability to have free will, then why are the Satanists and the very religious people trying to use The basis of a book and everything trying to scare us into doing the right thing when he alone gave us the ability to create our own decisions as we see fit and
		to leave it up to us to be a good person or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you.
		Father?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		The first thing is that, yes, we were given free will.
		However, from the very first, man abused that ability to use that free will wisely, prudently, by violating God's commandments in the garden.
		To suggest that he hid himself, though, is not biblical.
		And you won't find that in Scripture, and you won't find that in the teachings of the church anywhere.
		As a matter of fact, the Apostle Paul tells us that he has made himself known in the things he created.
		And as Paul says there, he says, so speaking of those who don't believe, he says, so they are without excuse in their disbelief.
		God has made a witness of himself in a multitude of ways.
		And the primary way is in the created world.
		And we can know God exists by the things he created.
		Of course, that gets us into a whole new topic on creation and evolution, etc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One I should have started on much earlier.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we don't really even have the time to get into that adequately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is why God creates more radio time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll do another show.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		What I seem to say on that issue of evolution, just really quickly, is that macroevolution...
unidentified		Oh, that's where you got to cut off macroevolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Macroevolution.
		I really do want to hear what he has to say on that subject.
		So I will sit here and wait until the very tricky internet allows the father back on.
		Macroevolution.
		All right, Father, you're back.
		The last words I heard were macroevolution.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm sorry.
		Yeah, macroevolution violates some scientific laws in itself.
		One of those being the law of biogenesis.
		The law of biogen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There he goes again.
		You know, I think that other church is at work here.
		Something's going on, that's for sure.
		This is very unusual.
		Not sure exactly what people in the internet could possibly be doing this unless his provider is going on and off.
		Or perhaps his cable at the back of the laptop or whatever he's using is a little bit whacked out.
		And it's too bad because we're right at the end of the show.
		Father?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		We've got time.
		I heard macroevolution.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The last thing I heard.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I apologize.
		I apologize for these drops.
		I don't know what's going on with this.
		Macroevolution violates scientific laws.
		The very first one that it violates is the law of biogenesis.
		And the law of biogenesis tells us that life comes from life.
		Science has no evidence of life coming from nothing.
		Essentially, evolution must be taken on faith because it cannot prove its beginning point whatsoever.
		Evolution is essentially a religion that relies on scientific language for its substance, but it has no real substance in and of itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that is going to take another show to properly digest.
		We could talk a great deal about this.
		Do you believe, Father, just sort of at the end of the program here, that God, and I'm sure you do, created the world as suggested in Genesis in a matter of days?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I do.
		I take a very literal approach to the Genesis account of creation.
		I believe that God created everything that exists just as it says in Genesis.
		I am in complete agreement with the work of an organization called Answers in Genesis, which you might be familiar with.
		Ken Hamm would be an excellent person to talk to sometime if you had the opportunity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so all the evidence of evolution is what?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is no evidence of macroevolution.
		I would not argue microevolution, nor would any other creationist.
		But there is no evidence of macroevolution.
		That's where we have a contention.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, despite that lack of evidence, if I can see that point, that still doesn't mean that the larger evolution that science talks of is not real.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you remove macroevolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then you take it all away?
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Then you remove the evolution of man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy, do we need more time.
		Father, I'm sorry, we're out of time.
		We are going to look into your computer problems, or you are, or he will, and then we'll do this again, I guarantee.
		Father, thank you.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		God bless.
father jack ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
		Not enough, not enough time.
		Absolutely fascinating topics.
		No question about that.
		From the high desert and the great American Southwest.

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