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July 30, 2015 - Art Bell

02:37:47

Art Bell MITD - John Dvorak Life Beyond Earth

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42:09

john dvorak

01:12:58

leo ashcraft

11:05

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening.
		Good morning, good afternoon, whatever the case may be, wherever in the world you are, and that's pretty much the entire world.
		Welcome to Midnight in the Desert.
		My name is Art Bell, and let's do what I do in the beginning of all shows, the rules.
		We have two rules, no bad language, and only one call per show.
		I should have a third one.
		Make it interesting when you call.
		Also, take a big, deep breath before you talk.
		It helps.
		I want to thank the usuals, Telos, the company, along with Joe Talbot here in Toronto, Nevada, that helps us make all this sound so good.
		And by the way, I hope it does tonight.
		We've got thunderstorms all around us.
		The desert is quaking with electrical activity.
		My webmaster, Keith Rowland, who has been there forever.
		Dr. Jay, my producer, all of you, the Belgab people, the I Love Art Bell people, the, or people who love Art Bell.
		It's so hard to say because it sounds so egotistical.
		The Midnight and Desert people and all the other chat sites that are popping up all over the place.
		So StreamGuys, they're great.
		They get it out to you.
		LV.net, they get it to me, and that lets me get it to you.
		And of course, Peter Eberhardt, our sales guy.
		So that's all the thanks, I think.
		Go to artbill.com.
		Now, why am I telling you to go to artbill.com?
		Because we have a photograph there of how the White House is going to look about a year after Mr. Trump is elected.
		You might want to take a look at that.
		Oh, by the way, I'm going to be on the Tom Lykis show tomorrow.
		They have invited me to come and be part of whatever it is they do there, and it's some strange stuff, I guess.
		So I should fit right in.
		That'll be fun.
		That'll be at 4 o'clock Pacific tomorrow.
		All right, so we've got this barnacle-encrusted wing part, which Boeing is saying, yep, part of a triple seven, really could only be part of that triple seven because it's the only one that's crashed out there.
		Can they trace it back and see where it really went down?
		If it went down on the line, that they have that curved line?
		I don't know.
		That's a reach, I think, for modeling.
		Anyway, they also picked up a suitcase today, a suitcase that belonged to perhaps somebody on that ill-fated flight.
		The mainstream thinking, and the mainstream talking head people, is what I should say, still think that it was a man-done deal.
		And it probably was.
		It made an awful lot of turns.
		NBC ran a very interesting article on China.
		700 successful cyber attacks on the U.S. this last year.
		Maybe we should get hold of Anonymous.
		I do have that contact, you know.
		And they should fight China.
		They could probably do it.
		I'm not sure how the NSA is doing, but maybe my friends at Anonymous really could make a difference.
		And one other story, and then we'll get to our guest who's going to be really something, Dr. Dvorak.
		He, well, I'll get to that in a moment.
		A swarm of UFOs, and this is on Art Bell2, artbell.com.
		A swarm of UFOs have been caught on camera by many, many, many in Japan's port city of Osaka.
		The footage, which has been viewed by about 9,000 people now, so it's pretty young.
		It's released on a Japanese YouTube channel as well.
		Spherical objects glowing white can be seen flying across the sky in the low-quality video.
		I'm sorry about that.
		And some users have speculated they are evidence of E.T. Life.
		Well, who knows?
		But the Japanese UFO sighting seems eerily similar to one in London, where concertgoers there witnessed a bright group of lights overhead in Hyde Park.
		You know, so these are mass sightings.
		I mean, it's not like one or two people.
		This is many, many, many people seeing all this.
		Coming up in a moment, Dr. John Dvorak.
		He received his Ph.D. in planetary geophysics from the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena.
		That was followed by working for the U.S. Geological Survey on Earthquakes and Volcanoes, including the 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens.
	Other eruptions in Hawaii, Alaska, Italy, Central America, and Indonesia, they get big ones.
	Currently, Dr. Dvorek operates one of the largest telescopes at the summit of Moana Kia in Hawaii.
	Hope I got that right.
	His professional interests include the question of scientific evidence for life beyond planet Earth and whether the multiverse exists.
	So this is going to be a lot of fun.
	So coming up in a moment, Dr. Dvorak, stay right where you are.
	You're listening to Midnight in the Desert.
	And this Midnight in the Desert is filled with lightning, electricity, and lots of storms out there.
	So you never know.
unidentified		I was justified when I was five.
		Raising cane, I stick in your eyes.
		Time's changing now, the more gets fast.
		But the fever's gonna catch you again.
		It's dance time Oh, hi Oh, hi Keep it on a Friday night.
		We're in a moment of the world that you guys thought and realized that eternal way this is right off here.
		We're waiting.
		Thank you.
		It's 2 a.m.
		Here it's all out.
		Here it is.
		It's us to walk.
		We're not met.
		We're not taking a chance.
		We're not taking a chance.
		Get up, find me in my head.
		Get up and be cold.
		My whole life feels into a brave bed.
		And my limit is good as my night's dome.
		Baby, let us feel.
		Take a walk on the wild side of midnight from the Kingdom of Nigh.
		This is Midnight in the Desert with Art Bell.
		Please call the show at 1-952-225-5278.
		That's 1-952.
		Call Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me modify that just a little.
		Make note of the number, please, but don't call it as of yet.
		Just hang in there.
		We'll let you know when it's time.
		Let's go all the way to Hawaii and Dr. Dvorak.
		Doctor, welcome to Midnight in the Desert.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, hello, Art.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It's great to be here tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's great to have you.
		Anybody with your credentials is always great to have on the program.
		And you've got such a wide range of cool stuff you want to talk about.
		I'm going to start sort of all backwards a little bit and start with the movie San Andreas because I took my family to see that fairly recently.
		And, you know, I know that it was all CGI.
		I know it was all fake.
		But I'm telling you right now, I was on the edge of my seat taking deep breaths through that whole movie.
		It just absolutely stunned me.
		It looked so real.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, I agree with you.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I enjoyed the movie a great deal, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		But one thing that you might be surprised about is that the ground shaking that they showed in the movie is not nearly as strong as it will actually be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, God.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Because if you recall, for example, when they're on top of the dam.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I object to that.
		Can you tell me about that before we move on?
		I do recall when they were on the dam.
		I objected to the dam getting slammed right away before it all began in California.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Is that likely?
		Well, it's not likely for the dam to break up.
		But what I wanted to point out is that during that first earthquake, people are running around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And the ground is going to shake so fast that it's impossible to run.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		You'll actually be down on the ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That have been falling down.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And so there isn't any possible...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the ground is either moving up and down or laterally, or both.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Both.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And the reason you can't run around is the acceleration is more than 1 G. So there are going to be times when you are actually in free fall, and then just a fraction of a second later, you will be under an acceleration of 2 Gs or more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		Again, I guess I just object to so many movies of this kind generally destroying Las Vegas or its environs first.
		And here they did it again, and boy, there went the damn.
		But that, of course, was just the first step.
		It was the beginning of what became really horrible.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
		And there are earthquakes out there.
		There is an earthquake zone that runs pretty much from Reno to Las Vegas.
		And it can have rather large earthquakes.
		Not as large as the San Andreas, but you can have magnitude 7-plus earthquakes there.
		The latest one was about 1872.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Maybe you can look back in records.
		I live in the little town called Perrump, Nevada.
		We're about 65 miles west of Las Vegas, and 6 miles from the California border.
		And a few years ago, we had a 7.3 in the desert.
		And let me tell you, Doctor, I've got a 100-foot radio tower over my house, and I was sure that piece of steel was going to come cutting through the house like a knife through hot butter, you know.
		It was a big earthquake, really.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That was the Hector Mine earthquake that occurred out in the desert, and that was a magnitude 7-plus earthquake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		7.3.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They said, yes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And if it had occurred in a place like Reno or Las Vegas or up and down the coast, there would have been major destruction and fatalities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you sort of look, this is very selfish, but if you look where I am, am I on a big earthquake fault or is it...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm in the zone.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		There's a zone that's known as the Walker Seismic Zone.
		It's named after the first Westerner to go in Yosemite National Park.
		It was, of course, in a park then, but he was the first one to see it.
		And the Walker Seismic Zone is about 600 miles long, about 100 miles wide, and it pretty much runs down the border between California and Nevada, between Reno and Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, then here's one other selfish question, and we'll move on.
		There are two types of dirt in the area where I live.
		One is what we locally call poof dirt, and it's really soft.
		It's almost like sand.
		I mean, some people have trouble with houses sinking a little bit into it, or more than a little.
		And then we have the opposite.
		Where I live here, we have what's almost like cement below me.
		It's called Kalichi, and it's kind of rock-like, actually.
		So if an earthquake did happen here, would I rather be in the sandy place or the rocky place?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you'd much rather be in the rocky place, on the Kalichi.
		On the Kalichi is an old soil where salts have leached into it, and that's what makes it so hard.
		And in terms of earthquakes, it's better to be on solid ground instead of very loose ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Got it.
		All right.
		Now, going for a second back to the movie, then, of course, the rest of the movie happened, and there became an earthquake up and down San Andreas virtually all the way.
		For all the movie-goers, and I know a lot of people saw this movie, is such a thing even possible, Doctor?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Oh.
		Yes, it is possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were going to say no.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		This is the scenario that people worry about a great deal.
		To back up a little bit, in the last few decades, one of the things we've learned about earthquakes is that they are not random and they don't reoccur like clockwork.
		But large earthquakes seem to come in clusters, and they are called earthquake storms.
		And I'd like to turn your attention over to what is probably the most famous earthquake storm.
		It occurred in Turkey along a fault right along the northern edge of Turkey on the edge of the Black Sea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long ago?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		From 1939 to 1999.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's 60 years.
		There were 13 major earthquakes.
		13.
		And people have often seen an analogy between that and the San Andreas.
		And that does get, that is a very big, big concern.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A gigantic concern, considering that's like one-sixth of our economy in California.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
		And so that's 13 major earthquakes in 60 years, or roughly about one every four or five years.
		It's like having, if you recall, well, like the earthquake that you had in 99, the Hector Main earthquake, or the Northridge in 94, north of Los Angeles, or the Loma Prieta, also known as the World Series earthquake in 1989.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remember it, yes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		What happened in Turkey were 13 earthquakes like that or larger.
		And so the San Andreas system, everybody I've ever talked to, including myself, see that as an analogy.
		So it is possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, San Andreas has been suspiciously silent, quiet.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		There happens to be a seismic lull right now going on in California.
		And it's been going on pretty much since the 1906 earthquake.
		For example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that good or bad?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, it's good immediately as of the now.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It's all in one's perspective about good or bad.
		It's nature.
		And my philosophy is I accept nature on its terms because I really don't have a choice, first of all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, let me reframe the question.
		It's been quiescent.
		It's been so silent.
		But somehow, under the ground, I have this mental picture of two things pressed up against each other, trying to move, trying harder to move, trying harder to move.
		And they've been trying for a while now.
		And then when they do move, they're really going to boogie.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And the two things which are pushing against each other, I think most people are familiar with the tectonic plates.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That the outer part of the planet has a dozen or more plates that are moving very slowly.
		And where they come together, they're stuck.
		And they sort of grind against each other.
		And the only way of releasing this is by a big earthquake.
		And so it's inevitable.
		There's going to be large earthquakes.
		The question is when.
		And it just happens to be that during the great urban expansion in California, you know, from 1920s to the 1970s, that was an extremely quiet period in terms of earthquakes.
unidentified		And that can't persist.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And we are getting the first signs that it's starting to pick up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you look at illustration, you may.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		From about 1840, you know, when the first records are kept.
		So from about 1840 to 1906, there were about 15 magnitude 5.5 or larger earthquakes in California.
		That's 15 over a period of about 70 years.
		The next 70 years, there was only one.
		And in the last 35 years, I think there's been five.
		And so it was really quiet throughout most of the 20th century.
		And we are getting an increase of magnitude 5.5 and larger earthquakes, but we still aren't up to the 7s and 8s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And even worse, I guess.
		Is it possible?
		Oh, again, the movie.
		Is it, what is the largest earthquake possible?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, the largest one on the planet would be somewhere in the mid-nines, like what happened in Japan.
		Right.
		in Sumatra and what is going to happen up in Washington and Oregon.
		But in California, the largest one is about an 8.2.
		Now, that is still a huge earthquake that's going to cause a lot of havoc and destruction and fatalities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Particularly if the epicenter is under some nearly populated area.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Now, the San Andreas, the only mega city that it goes through is the Bay Area.
		It goes north of Los Angeles, but there are certainly many splinters of it that run through Los Angeles, like the Hollywood Fault.
		I mean, if you ever go to Hollywood, everyone stands at Hollywood and Vine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And you look north, and you see that round building of Capitol Records.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Capital Records, yes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		You look beyond that, and Vine Street makes a ramp up.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's the Hollywood Fault.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Most movies destroy that building, by the way.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It's a very convenient building.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess it is, and it's a landmark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But in reality, it's close, huh?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		A few hundred feet away from the Hollywood Fault.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holy moly.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So something in the 8-plus is possible in these areas, and certainly up in the San Francisco Bay Area, huh?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		And not just the San Andreas.
		People are very concerned about the Hayward Fault.
		That runs from just about San Jose up through Fremont and Oakland and Berkeley.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of recent concern about the Hayward.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		In fact, there was a Feldt earthquake there just a few weeks ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you say a Felt earthquake?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it was a magnitude 4.
		So people felt the shaking.
		But I don't think there was any destruction.
		But the reason people are also concerned about Hayward, the last major earthquake was 1868.
		There was about 24,000 people lived in the East Bay.
		Today, there's over 1.2 million people live in the East Bay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't have a movie for people, but if there were an 8.3 or 4 earthquake in the San Francisco Bay Area, what should we expect?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, during the earthquake, you won't be able to walk around.
		The best thing when you start feeling the shaking is to get under a desk or something.
		And it's just drop and hold on to it.
		And it's going to shake for one, two, maybe for three minutes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That'll feel like an eternity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The one I felt went for about 45 seconds, and I thought it was forever, you know, the 7.3.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		If we go back to the World Series earthquake in 1989, I talked to a Stanford professor who felt it, and he said, you know, I'm well educated.
		I know everything about earthquakes.
		But this thing shook for only 12 seconds, and I thought it was an eternity.
		I thought it was never going to stop.
unidentified		Okay, so, I mean, people...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, there you go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Francisco, after something of that magnitude, what's left?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, there'll be no running water.
		There'll be no electric power.
		There'll be no transportation.
		And there will be no communication with the cell phones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that just about rips.
		People will have to cope.
		Yeah, that rips about all of it.
		I mean, if all of that is gone.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And people will have to cope, depending on the areas.
		If you're in an outer area, maybe like 20 miles or more, things will probably be out for just a few hours.
		If you're down in the major shaking, it could be down for weeks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		The circle of fire, the ring of fire, whatever you want to call it, there has sure been an awful lot of action on the rest of it.
		I mean, Japan, off Indonesia, really big stuff.
		And, you know, you see that begin to happen.
		Usually it seems like it comes on around, then something happens in South America, and then it seems to come north.
		Maybe I'm all wrong about that, but it feels like that.
		And for some reason, a lot of Asia has been really catching it big time, as you know.
		And the West Coast, not so much.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Again, if an earthquake happens in Japan, it doesn't have any immediate effect on the West Coast of North or South America.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		But it does have a regional effect.
		And that's where this concept of earthquake storms come from.
		So there isn't any global increase of activity, but you can have a regional increase of activity that will last decades, which is pretty much a lifetime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it could start up, for example, tomorrow in California, and it could keep going for years.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right, for decades.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		As another example, you probably remember what happened in Sumatra.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was not just an isolated earthquake.
		That was actually part of an earthquake storm.
		Sumatra was very quiet in terms of earthquakes for over 100 years.
		And then in 2001, there was the first magnitude 8 earthquake.
		And they have now had six.
		Six in 14 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it was horrible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, the tsunami from it was horrible.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And so that's why there's this concern about What seismologists call Cascadia, which is the place of Washington and Oregon.
		That has been very quiet.
		Very little seismic activity for 200 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have a lot of listeners up in that area right now.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And so, what the concern is, is that there will certainly be a large earthquake, but there will probably be a series of large earthquakes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And once they start, they'll probably go on for a couple decades and then stop again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you imagine people saying, I've had enough after about two or three and just moving out of the area?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people do.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they do.
		I had a very good friend who was in the World Series earthquake, the Loma Preda earthquake, 89.
		And after two days of aftershocks, he said, I finally yelled out, stop this.
		When is this going to stop?
		But remember, on these large earthquakes, these will be spaced most likely over a period of many years.
		So it's not like one today and then one next week and another week.
		Though it's possible, it's more likely it'll be spaced out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Still very little comfort after you've just had one.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, and it's a beautiful place, and I would live there with the earthquakes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you would.
unidentified		You would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, that's an endorsement.
		Doctor, hold on.
		We're at a breakpoint.
		We'll be right back.
		This, of course, is midnight in the desert.
		And it's rocking out there in the desert tonight.
unidentified		Oh, what a night.
unidentified		They descend for me.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		More Dark Matter News by Leo Ashcraft.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Witnesses say three people were performing an exorcism in a Texas public park on Thursday morning.
unidentified		They started getting louder and louder and louder.
		You think she was on the ground and they were standing over her with hands on her, screaming, facing that demand that you depart.
		It just went on and on and on.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		That's the reaction from one bystander after what eyewitnesses are calling an exorcism.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		It has also concerned the local clergyman, Father Dave Hawksley.
unidentified		My overriding thought in that is I hope that the people who are doing it had some level of training.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		He describes exorcism as the removal of an evil spirit through the use of prayer and originates from the gospel of Jesus.
unidentified		Person who they're exorcising don't have persons getting the care that they need.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		Police say they were called to the scene, but since it's not illegal to perform an exorcism in a public place, they did not take action.
		No injuries were reported.
		A Hillview man has been arrested after he shot down a drone flying over his property, but he's not making any apologies for it.
		It happened Sunday night at a home in Bullitt County, Kentucky.
		Hillview police say they were called to the home of a 47-year-old William Meredith after someone complained about a firearm.
		When they arrived, police say Meredith told them he had shot down a drone that was flying over his house.
		The drone was hit mid-air and crashed.
		Well, we might be a little closer to interplanetary travel after scientists have recently confirmed that an electromagnetic propulsion drive, which is fast enough to get to the moon in four hours, actually works.
		The EM drive was developed by the British inventor Roger Shawyer nearly 15 years ago, but was ridiculed at the time as being scientifically impossible.
		It produces thrust by using solar power to generate multiple microwaves that move back and forth in an enclosed chamber.
		This means that until something fails or wears down, theoretically the engine could keep running forever without the need for rocket fuel.
		The drive, which has been likened to Star Trek's impulse drive, has left scientists scratching their heads because it defies one of the fundamental concepts of physics, the conservation of momentum, which states that if something is propelled forward, something must be pushed in the opposite direction.
		So the forces inside the chamber should cancel each other out.
		In recent years, though, NASA has confirmed that they believe it works.
		And this week, Martin Toshmore, professor and chair for space systems at Dresden University of Technology in Germany, also showed that it does produce thrust.
		Well, you know how it is.
		You're swinging a hammer around, having heaps of fun, and you stumble across your very own personal bat cave.
		Except it's not a bat cave.
		It's an entire city.
		While redoing his house in 1963, a man in Neveshir province of Turkey in an area known as Cappadocia knocked down a wall.
		Behind that wall was a tunnel.
		And behind that tunnel, there was an underground city.
		What he had stumbled across was one of the many hidden entrances to the ancient underground city of Derenkuyu.
		This was an entire city carved into the stone below Cappadocia, reaching some 60 meters below.
		It had 18 levels.
		It had it all.
		Residences, churches, food storage, wineries, and even a school.
		It was designed to house some 20,000 people as well as livestock.
		It features vents to the surface and several discrete entrances.
		This all suggests that the city was built as a precaution to protect the people during times of war or natural disaster.
		Cities like these were used during times of Christian persecution, so religious items would be placed on the lowest levels for protection.
		The city was also used as a refuge from the Mongolian invasion in the 1300s and up through the 20th century for Christian people fleeing persecution.
		It was finally abandoned for good in 1923.
		After its rediscovery, the city opened it to tourists in 1969.
		Today, about half the city is available to the public.
		I'm Leo Ashcraft for Dark Matter News.
unidentified		Dark Matter News
		Dark Matter News
		Time to go.
		Midnight in the desert is a wild trip across the day's devices.
		Get your tickets arrived by calling 1-952.
		Call Art.
		That's 1-952-225-5278.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A real wise guy, not that kind, but as in wisdom, Dr. John DeVore is our guest.
		He talks about...
		We're going to move on to volcanoes, then telescopes, what can be seen, then life beyond Earth.
		So we've got quite a road to travel this night.
		Welcome back, Doctor.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so how does one know if you're at the beginning of an earthquake storm or just a one-off event?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		One doesn't know.
		That's the unfortunate part.
		There's no way of knowing if it's the beginning of a storm.
		However, once you get a large earthquake, you can get a better idea that more are going to come in the very near future.
		For example, I mentioned Sumatra.
		There's been an earthquake storm going on there since 2001.
		And there's been six major earthquakes.
		And people have said there will be at least two more.
		Now, these next two could easily be 40 years from now, or they may be occurring now.
		But people are confident that it's not over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Doctor, we've got a worldwide audience, so I've got a couple of questions for you that just came in on the computer.
		I get these things as we go on with the show.
		Richard in Japan asks, Art, question for your guest.
		I live in Yokohama, and there are some small earthquakes and volcanic activity happening right now, right here.
		Could Mount Fuji erupt again?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, Mount Fuji will certainly erupt again, but what you're seeing now is not an indication of a run-up to an eruption of Fuji.
		Mount Fuji was very active until 1707.
		And so that's now been over 300 years that it's been quiet.
		But it will erupt again.
		But what this listener is feeling and seeing is not a run-up to an eruption.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just a small flurry of quakes there on the ocean?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		Yeah, because part of the problem is there's always this small flurry of earthquakes.
		And we've never been able to sort out which ones are the actual lead-up and which ones are just background.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then there's Robert, and he wants to know, ask please, about the new Madrid Fault for all of us here in the southwest Missouri area.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes, one of the largest earthquakes in the history of the United States occurred there.
		In fact, four of them occurred there between 1811 and 1812.
		We are pretty much ignorant as to why.
		We're not sure why such large earthquakes occur in the middle of the continent.
		I just have to plead ignorant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No problem.
		Because nobody knows.
		So if you don't know, it's better to say I don't know.
		But again, it's been a long time, right?
		So again, the feeling that it's like the pressure is building.
		Or is that not a proper way to look at it?
		Is the pressure always building, or are some areas almost dormant for really, really long periods?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, the center of the continents are very, very stable.
		Like in North America, if you go to Canada, those are very stable platforms, and they're known as cratons.
		But almost all the geologic activity occurs on the plate boundaries.
		So along the west coast of North and South America, Japan, Indonesia, that's where almost all of the geologic activity is going on, earthquakes and volcanoes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's because of the motion of the tectonic plates.
		As they move across the surface of the Earth, and we live on a sphere, they collide with each other.
		And it's that collision that's producing the earthquake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there's really no way, no way to...
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		No one has predicted an earthquake yet.
		And we're not sure if it's possible.
		If I could step back, probably the biggest question in seismology today is exactly what is a big earthquake?
		Meaning is a big earthquake, like what happened in Japan, is it a small earthquake that just got very big?
		Or was it a large segment of the plate boundary that moved all together?
		And the physics of that is very different.
		If it's a matter that it's a small earthquake that grew big, there's lots of small earthquakes all the time.
		And we will never be able to predict large earthquakes.
		But if it's the other case that a big earthquake actually starts off different, like a whole sliding, then it's possible.
		And people are frantically trying to answer that question because they know that's the key, whether it's even possible to predict.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, maybe this is the wrong way to think of it, but on a mountain, if you've got pretty big rock, if that rock starts falling down the mountain, it can either go down pretty well unmolested and maybe block a road at the bottom, or it can hit a million other rocks on the way down and you've got a total landslide on your hands.
		Down deep in the earth, is there an equivalent to that?
		I mean, you said a small earthquake might cause a big one.
		That's kind of what put that in my head.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly right.
		That's perfect.
		If it's a matter that it's a small earthquake that grew big, people refer to that as the cascade model of a large earthquake.
		And it's exactly that.
		You get a small earthquake that causes more small earthquakes, and they just cascade down, and they produce this huge one.
		And so that's one of the models for a large earthquake.
		But we're not sure if it's the correct physics yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So conceivably, man is getting pretty powerful now.
		We could do something that would be powerful enough to cause an earthquake.
		I mean, I am just over the mountain here from where they set off the nuclear weapons when they were testing them above and then below ground.
		And I remember being on the air in Las Vegas and having to warn people because, boy, I'll tell you, Vegas would rock and roll when they set one of those things off.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, right.
		And one thing about large earthquakes, we don't know what triggers them.
		And one thing we know about them is that they apparently are very hard to start.
		For example, one of the largest atomic blasts was in about 1971 or so, up in the Aleutians.
		And it was the equivalent of like a magnitude six earthquake.
		And there was concern, especially in Japan, that this was going to set off a whole series of quakes.
		But it didn't.
		And so this whole notion of triggering a big earthquake is right at the core of the science of seismology.
		And people continue to argue with great passion as to what is the physics of a big earthquake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed, I mean, I could ask, if you were to set off a nuclear weapon with a pretty big yield somewhere on the San Andreas, do you think that has a chance of triggering the whole mess?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		No.
		No.
		It's just not putting enough energy in the ground to do that, or the right type of energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, even hydrogen bombs are small energy compared to a big earthquake.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it has to do with the way that the energy gets put into the earth.
		Because, you know, an explosion is sort of like an impulse.
		An earthquake is like a sliding.
		And so if you had a bomb that could actually slide things, it might do it.
		The physics is very different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		All right.
		Let me tell you.
		Your mic is so good, Doctor.
		And I know you're in Hawaii that I hear a bird in the background.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		The sun is just going down, and that's when the birds start to chirp.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I bet it's gorgeous.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It's beautiful in Hawaii every day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I hear that.
		I very nearly moved recently.
		I had this ham radio friend who had this gorgeous property up on a hill down on the Big Island.
		And the only thing that stopped me was interesting because it was coming out of the ground.
		And I'm talking about the volcanic stuff.
		I forget what they call it.
		But it's actually a pretty severe factor.
		Depending where on the Big Island you are, it fools with air quality.
		No question about it.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It certainly puts a lot of smoke in the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think they call it bog.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right, bog for a volcanic fog.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And that usually blows with the trade winds.
		So it blows away from where I am.
		But it's a beautiful island.
		The volcanoes are one of the intriguing things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's gorgeous.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And from my house, I can see both, Kilauea, which I live on, in Mauna Loa, and I actually saw both of them erupt simultaneously when I was in bed one morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, and that didn't move.
		And it was moving away, huh?
		You didn't move away.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
		If anything, people come here for eruptions.
		The eruptions are spectacular.
		I've never seen anybody not be odd the first time when they see molten rock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can tell you one who's not odd.
		I'm married to a Filipina, Filipina gal, and I lived in the Philippines for a long time.
		We were in Manila, and we got news that the Mayan volcano was erupting.
unidentified		And I said, come on, let's get in the car and go down there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to see this.
		And I could not get her to budge.
		I think she's genetically disinclined to go to an erupting volcano.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's the initial response, certainly.
		And the ones in the Philippines are the ones which explode.
		The ones here in Hawaii are not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good point.
		Very good point.
		At any rate, I could not get her to budge.
		She wasn't going to go, and so we never did end up going.
		But the Mayan volcano was going pretty well there for a while, and it was getting scary, and they were beginning to make people move away and safety areas and all that sort of thing.
		But I wanted to go.
		So I guess you're probably very much like me.
		You want to see it?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		Yes, I'm very intrigued.
		I'm attracted to the parts of nature which are dynamic.
		I'm attracted to storms, earthquakes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, me too.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Volcanoes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I chase tornadoes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I did earlier.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you did?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, heavens, yes.
		Amarillo, Texas, a friend of mine and I used To get in a little Volkswagen.
		How dumb is that?
		And we would chase these giant storms all the way sometimes into Oklahoma, take video and sell it to the TV station there in Amarillo.
		And so I love it.
		I love violent anything.
		But, you know, I married a gal who's somehow got it in her genetic structure to stay away from volcanoes.
		Can't blame her.
		So I love that kind of thing.
		So in that, we share something.
		So with regard to earthquake prediction, it's a no.
		I mean, there was some guy in California who predicted 98% chance or something like that of one in Northern California, and it never came off.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes, there's been a whole series of people attempting to predict one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So people are failing at predicting.
		Now, here's the other question.
		What about animals?
		Jim Birkland is famous for watching the newspaper for missing lost animals because he thinks they run away before earthquakes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm very familiar with Jim Birkland, but no one has ever used animals to predict earthquakes.
		There's a lot of anecdotal evidence, but there's no scientific.
		And what I mean about that, in order to have scientific evidence for anything, it has to be consistent.
		You have to have other supportive evidence for it.
		At some point, you have to come up with a mechanism for it.
		And you have to be able to use it to sort of predict what's going to happen.
		And the problem with using animals is that people tell me that their dog, horse, cat ran away or they came back or it got active or fell asleep.
		And all that is inconsistent.
		And that's been the fundamental problem with animal predictions.
		And people have looked at over 100 different species.
		And there just is nothing consistent about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so really, when you boil everything you've said down, we just don't understand earthquakes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't understand them to the point that we can predict them at all.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Fair?
		That's right.
		And we don't even know if the physics of large earthquakes even permit it.
		For example, scientists talk about something being non-deterministic or it is determined.
		For example, the orbit of the moon is determined.
		And I can tell you when an eclipse is going to happen.
		All that is deterministic.
		Earthquakes seem to be non-deterministic, which means we may not have any hope of predicting them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know that they've set up lasers looking across mountain ranges and looked for movement, and they've done all these different things, and so you just can't predict.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It certainly isn't possible today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Sort of then on to volcanoes.
		I do have a fear of Yellowstone.
		Yellowstone, I've seen predictions of what would happen if Yellowstone blew up, and they're not good at all.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me say I've never met a volcano I didn't like.
		Even Yellowstone, I find them intriguing.
		The ones at Yellowstone with the boiling pots, the geysers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's cool.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And even looking at the debris from the last major eruptions, all of that is very spectacular.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That said, if Yellowstone, if the caldera blew up, what would happen?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, the main effect, of course, is the tremendous amount of ash which will go.
		I don't recall exactly what the maps are, but if you're within 50 miles or so, you'll probably have three to four feet of ash.
		And even as far as New York, you'll probably have something like a tenth of an inch of ash.
		That will certainly raise havoc to transportation and the farmland and so forth, the economy.
		But such a thing is extremely unlikely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		Honestly, good.
		Now, again, I've got a lot of Northwest listeners, and of course, you know, they're very concerned about Mount St. Helens with good reason.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Right, I was at Mount St. Helens in 1980.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were there?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		Oh, my.
		That's when I started my career.
		I couldn't believe my great fortune.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, from our perspective, I understand your statement.
		Most people would go, oh, really?
		Great fortune?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, the eruption was spectacular, and dealing with putting in instruments, standing on the ground as it shakes like jello, and just to be, well, the one that I was close to was not St. Helens.
		It was one down in Indonesia, just less than a mile away when it blew up.
		And that was the night that my life changed.
		It was an epiphany to me when I was just within a mile or two of this volcano exploding.
		And I had just been in the crater a couple hours earlier.
		It was a spectacular sight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You had just been in the crater.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we had just gone in the crater.
		This was Galunga.
		I doubt if people remember that when it exploded in 1982, we were actually at the top of a volcano called Merapi, 50 miles away, during its first explosion.
		And then we got in Land Rovers and we rushed over there as fast as we could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do realize you're describing things with a sort of a zealot excitement about how cool it is.
		Most things that people would move away from, run from.
		So it's kind of interesting To listen to.
		I understand it.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		If you could promise me one thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Don't tell my mother.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you described these things to your mom?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Never.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, she said, well, what did you do?
		I said, well, I had dinner, and then we all went to bed.
		I mean, it was just a quiet night, mom.
		But anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We're at a breakpoint, that breakpoint I told you about.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Music
		The wind blue drifting through lazy swing between look in your eyes, looking into your mind, seeing what you wanted to see.
		Come on, give me the same words.
		Nobody's saying tonight, I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove on my mind.
		I want a man with a slow hand.
		Come on, men and women.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That cut off, didn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's try it again.
unidentified		In that darkest time, between dusk and dawn, from the high desert, it's Art Bell's Midnight in the Desert.
		Now, here's Art Bell.
		Oh, well, that'll do, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Electronics.
		All right, Dr. Dvorak is my guest, and we're talking about calamitous things, actually.
		And, yeah, I used to chase tornadoes, and I can't tell you the thrill of seeing the sky utterly dark in front of you, big roll cloud coming, the sun peeking out somewhere, and then suddenly a tornado dips down.
		Now, even the meteorologists on the weather channel have a hard time, Doctor, sort of hiding their elation at what they're seeing.
		This baby is amazing.
		But then, on the other hand, they have to say, but of course it's awful and very dangerous.
		Get in your basements right now.
		So people like us, it's like writing a fine line, isn't it?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And when you feel in your heart, you're very much torn apart because these events are very destructive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		But they're extremely awesome.
		And if I could tell you, remember there was an earthquake in Chile about four years ago.
		It did a huge amount of destruction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And the wave came across the Pacific.
		And so I went down to Gilo and stood on a cliff to watch the wave come in.
		But deep in my heart, I had this problem.
		I was intrigued and safe, and I knew there was hundreds of thousands of people suffering, and they were trapped in rubble.
		And personally, I still have trouble dealing with that between the elation I have for nature and the empathy that I feel for these people.
		For example, I asked a person who was the head of the earthquake studies for the United States Geological Survey.
		I said, the day you retire, are you going to be disappointed there hasn't been a tremendous earthquake like 1906 in California?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And he turned to me and he said, no, because of all the suffering it's going to cause.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		He said, I'm not sure I could actually deal with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And yet that's, I guess, the job.
		Right?
		It's the job.
		You should be interested in it.
		It's just hard to temper it so that normal people understand.
		That's all.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And people who deal with hurricanes, I've talked to them, and they feel the same way.
		There's this elation that there's a Category 5 monster out there, but they know that in 48 hours it's going to rip across and destroy people's lives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, my wife's home in the Philippines is just about the bullseye for more typhoons than you can imagine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just horrible.
unidentified		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		In fact, here on this island, there's a tropical storm that's going to become a hurricane tomorrow.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And it's projected to run very close to the Hawaiian Islands on Wednesday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And the question is, will it go across the islands or north or south?
		And that's sort of what part of life of what you deal with.
		Next Thursday, my house may or may not be here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How does it look now?
		I mean, I'm sure you're following the track very carefully.
		If the track is accurate, does it miss?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's 1,800 miles away.
		And so there's a huge uncertainty.
		The only thing that is certain right now is that it's going to grow from a tropical storm into a hurricane, category 2, and it will pass close to the Hawaiian Islands at the middle of next week.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the cone, I'm sure, at that distance is well over you right now.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		On the cone includes me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		But it could also be 500 miles north.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		But long ago, I just learned you accept what's given to you in terms of nature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So Mount St. Helens, is the fact that it recently, fairly recently, exploded, does that indicate to you that it's liable to go again or exact opposite, that it'll go to sleep for a while?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, a system like that can certainly go dormant for hundreds of years.
		It is very unlikely to have a replay of what happened in 1980.
		And there's a variety of reasons.
		And so that's not, if you ask people who are involved in hazards of volcanoes in the Pacific Northwest, Mount St. Helens is there, but the bigger concerns are Shasta, Mount Hood, and Mount Rainier.
		Mount Hood, most of the watershed for Mount Hood, that's the water supply for Portland, Oregon.
		Mount Rainier, because of the amount of ice on it, could produce a lot of mud flows.
		And they can reach the water, you know, in the southern part of Seattle.
		And there's hundreds of thousands of people live there.
		And Shasta, there's not as many people, but it could certainly produce a lot of destruction.
		Those are the three which, if you ask about the Pacific Northwest, those are the ones that people focus on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, unlike earthquakes, volcanoes, to some degree, I believe, can be predicted.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes?
		Yes.
		Because unlike earthquakes, as far as we can tell, earthquakes are spontaneous events.
		Volcanic eruptions, it's the movement of magma.
		And it seems that it takes hours to months for it to actually break through.
		And so a typical eruption, you'll have hours to months of knowing that something may or may not happen soon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they'll be clearing people away and that kind of thing.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Unfortunately, there'll be a lot of uncertainty.
		You're not certain it's going to erupt, and you're not certain exactly how large it's going to be.
		But there certainly will be...
		But a volcano does not erupt spontaneously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It seemed to me that when Mount St. Helens went, it was a big surprise.
		And then after it went, I saw a picture of saying, well, they should have known because the side of the dome was getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.
		And it was kind of a big surprise, right?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can tell you what the discussions were of people who were there.
		It was, how could we have been so stupid?
		It was so obvious in hindsight what was going to happen.
		But then as we talked about it, they said, okay, let's go back a week.
		What were we talking about?
		And it wasn't obvious at the time exactly what was going to go on.
		And there was this constant balance of how much do we tell people of potentially how bad it may be as to, well, this might happen, but it's a low probability.
		And then we have this uncertainty.
		This activity could go on for a year without an eruption.
		And people's homes are there and their jobs are there.
		Are we really prepared to tell people you are out of work for a year and it may or may not erupt?
		And we did spend a lot of time trying to balance that out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, if you tell people a mountain's going to explode, they're going to get really upset, no doubt about it.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		But if you say it may not be for a year, they say, well, then why can't I go to work?
		And it might be tomorrow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but in hindsight, again, it was obvious, right?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		In hindsight, it was obvious.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So have we changed since then?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, are we making careful measurements that will be apparent to us in some way other than hindsight in the future?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		We're making much better measurements.
		Yay.
		We have much more out there in terms of finding out about earthquakes, about the ground motion.
		For example, where we happen to have instruments, we're able to measure the ground if it moves just by a tenth of an inch.
		And so a great deal has happened in the last 35 years.
		We still understand that it's not perfect, and we're not going to be able to give out, say, next Wednesday at 8 o'clock it's going to happen.
		But we are certainly in a much better situation now than we were in 1980.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's a little bit encouraging anyway.
		Although I bet there would still be a gigantic fight if what we talked about became obvious about whether to actually announce it or not.
		I mean, how do those decisions get made?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, they get made after a lot of very heated arguments and name-calling goes on in private.
		Even name-calling?
		It gets personal.
		Oh, yes.
		It really gets personal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean scientists actually fight with each other?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you, scientific research is a contact sport.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		You better have a helmet on because things will get very, very heavy sometimes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Yes, I suppose so.
		I don't know.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		The egos are big.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		The competition is fierce.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's true.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And people are sure they're right and you're wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Until you're proven right or wrong.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Let me ask you about our earth and how much you know.
		You know, we know so little, Doctor, about what's under our feet.
		I know there's dirt, then you dig down for a while, and you get to water that you can drink if you're lucky.
		But I don't know much about the earth.
		Period.
		I don't know much about the earth.
		What's in the middle of the earth?
unidentified		What's next to that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a lot of territory to cover.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much does man really know about what he stands on?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me preface it by saying Earth is one of my favorite Planets.
		Oh, mine too.
		It certainly is on my list of favorite planets.
		But you hit it on the head.
		We know much less about the interior of the Earth than we do about the surface of Mars or even on the interior of the Sun.
		We know a surprisingly great detail of what's happening inside the Sun.
		The other thing is the most geologically active part of planet Earth is not on the surface.
		It's thousands of miles beneath our feet.
		The Earth is like an onion.
		There's a core, and that's mostly made out of iron and nickel.
		There's an inner core that's solid, an outer core that's liquid.
		And then, as you learn in grade school, the mantle that's made out of what we call just a rocky material.
		And actually, the most geologically active part, that is where most of the chemical changes are occurring, are actually between the core and the mantle.
		It's not on the surface.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what's going on between the core and the metal?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's the chemistry.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		The core right there is very hot liquid iron-nickel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do we really know all this for sure?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I mean, ironic and then it's clear that for a variety of reasons, we not only know it's iron and nickel, we also know it has a very small amount of sulfur in it.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And it escapes me what else, but we're very sure it's iron-nickel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, it's not because we've been there, because we haven't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it must be instrumentation or magnetic measurements or what?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's a combination.
		It's the magnetic field.
		It's the passage of the seismic waves.
		In laboratories, people put various things together like iron-nickel, and they bring them to very high pressure.
		And they see when is it going to melt, what minerals are formed, what's the seismic velocity.
		And it's pretty much clear that the core of the Earth is almost entirely iron-nickel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely fascinating stuff.
		Hold tight.
		We'll go ahead and get this out of the way.
		This break.
		Dr. Dvorak is my guest, and we're going to be talking of some really fascinating stuff.
		Already done it, but I'm telling you, there's a lot coming up.
		Yeah, what's down there?
		Center of the Earth, right?
unidentified		I can feel that in the center of it.
		In a room where you do what you don't confess Someday you better take care If I find you've been creeping around my back still Someday you better take care If I find you've been creeping around my back still Here's the new looking...
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		My soul and the wheel that's turning.
		This is Midnight in the Desert.
		To call the show.
		If you're east of midnight, call 1-952-CALLART.
		If you're west of midnight, call 1-952-225-5278.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Ross.
		Welcome back, everybody.
		Dr. Dvorak is my guest.
		We're talking about earthquakes and volcanoes and soon more.
		There was recently, you know, I really should pay attention, I guess, to the people sending me all these questions.
		People live, of course, all over the place.
		Here's somebody from Miami who says, all right, what are the chances of that volcano in the Canary Islands off Africa erupting?
		I read that half the mountain might fall into the Atlantic.
		I remember this story, and wipe out the East Coast and the Caribbean.
		Doctor?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is possible.
		It's an active volcano out there in the Canary Islands.
		And part of the evolution of those volcanoes, the same as here in Hawaii, is that part of them eventually slide into the ocean, and that creates a huge wave.
		Such things occur over a period of 10,000 years, 100,000 years.
		And so the probability of it happening is very low.
		But it is possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
		Well, every now and then you get those articles in the paper, and it just, you know, scares the heck out of you.
		An island about to or a whole part of a mountain about to fall in the water, something that would destroy perhaps the East Coast.
		So it's barely possible.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It's a very small risk.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		If you were to be talking to the people in California right now, up and down the San Andreas, would you tell them, relax, enjoy life?
		Or would you say, hey, you know, if I lived there, I'd move.
		Well, of course, you wouldn't.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I would say relax, enjoy life.
		You live in one of the nicest places in the world.
		There's so much diversity.
		There's so much excitement.
		There's so much culture there.
		It's one of my favorite places.
		San Francisco, Los Angeles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was going to say high taxes, though.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		The taxes are high.
		They're not as high as in many parts of the world.
		The taxes are high.
		But the state just intrigues me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We just had this amazing, amazing, truly amazing thing happened as we got photographs of Pluto.
unidentified		Now, yes, spectacular.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, in those photographs were 11,000-foot mountains.
		Now, you know, it's cold out there, it's far from the sun.
		How do you imagine, can you imagine, how those 11,000-foot mountains got there?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		No, I was blown away.
		So was I. This is not at all what I thought Pluto was going to be.
		I look at those and I'm just struck by them.
		To put this in perspective, Pluto is about half the size of the moon.
		So it's not a very big object.
		And it's extremely cold and dark out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And so to come upon this thing with so much geologic activity just blew us away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought we'd get a billiard ball and a frozen one at that.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
		I thought that, and it'd have a bunch of craters on it.
		And we'd fly by and people would say, what was the big deal?
		It's just, that's all it is.
		But it's a very dynamic place.
		And if it has those 11,000-foot mountains, glaciers made out of nitrogen, it is possible that it has an internal ocean of water.
		And of course, as people say, wherever there's water, there could be life out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Yes, I was watching the NASA news conference, and some reporter in the back of the room said, you know, I don't see what the big deal is.
		We have got these pictures.
		It's not very exciting.
		And the scientists looked at him on the panel like he was from another planet, literally.
		Oh, my God, of course it's exciting.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Look at this geology.
		It was completely unexpected.
		I don't know of anyone, and I was in that, who would have thought that this was Pluto.
		I really thought it was just going to be a big part of ice with some craters on it.
		And the surface would be billions of years old, but it's an active surface, which means the internal part of it's active, which means what's the source of the heat that describes this geology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A, B, C, just like that.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		You get to what's the source of the heat, and I guess you could guess radiation, possibly, or everything which we would put in will not work.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It's because it's a small object, and it just shouldn't have that much heat in it, even the radioactive stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, even if you model it, you don't come up with an answer.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		You just don't come up with an answer.
		We are missing something fundamental here.
		And Pluto is going to point us in a brand new direction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fundamental.
		Interesting.
		So that whatever it is might change our whole view of planetary science?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And what's out there?
		Remember, Pluto is just one of maybe 10,000, 100,000 objects like that out there.
		And so what are those things like?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's just a lot of people.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And in terms of, well, this looks boring to me, these, I mean, what the person said at the news conference, this always goes back to that same fundamental question.
		Are we alone?
		What was our origin?
		And so forth.
		When you look at a brand new world, that's still part of our history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then this added more questions than it did answers, right?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, certainly.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it added a lot of questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, you kind of explained the dynamics going on below our feet, but there may be some stuff we don't fully grasp yet.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there are many things.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		There are many things which we don't understand, many things that are inconsistent that we're desperately trying to figure out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		One other area that I want to get to, you know, we're going to eventually take calls here, but you are a scientist, and, God, I love science.
		I absolutely love science.
		I understand that I can talk to you if I wish about the multiverse or the multiverse theory.
		Can we talk about it?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It'll be the big discovery of the 21st century.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		You think?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And we're right on the edge of it.
		And we may have collected data and the telescope that I work at, I may have had observers which have collected data, and they're desperately working through it and trying to convince people that, yes, the multiverse is out there.
		It's not mainstream science.
		It's not widely accepted.
		But people are very strongly going toward that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You work with a large telescope, as you just mentioned.
		So I've got to ask, on behalf of a lot of people out there, have you ever seen anything that just caused you to jump?
		I mean, something so weird or strange that you might not even talk about it normally?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, I'm happy to talk about anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		But what makes me jump, as my father says, does not make a person who's normal jump.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		So I'm intrigued by different things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I think we've already established that.
unidentified		Okay.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the most spectacular things we saw was the breakup of a comet.
		The comet started to break up into about 20 pieces one night, and I was floored by that.
		I remember watching a storm over a period of about a week develop and dissipate on the planet Neptune.
		I was really intrigued by that.
		We saw a star flare up In a nursery where stars are being born.
		We saw one flare up one night.
		And of course, we look at like in the Andromeda Galaxy, and we're able to see clusters of stars that sit there.
		And though we haven't seen it, we certainly have a lot of evidence of the gigantic black hole that sits right at the heart of the Milky Way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I worry a bit about black holes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, because if we run into one or one runs into us, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It'd be a bad day.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		You won't even know it happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is that.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		If you fell into a black hole, you wouldn't even know it happened to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you'd still be gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or in another universe, possibly.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		People aren't quite sure what happens once you get down at the point.
		But in terms of being able to sense things or to see things, you would just sort of age in a normal manner.
		However, people who are looking at you from outside the black hole would see you gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And so you really wouldn't know what's going on here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you might actually not, I guess in the physical sense, you would die, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would die.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes.
		I mean, our bodies are atoms, and that's what happens to atoms.
		They break up and transmute and so forth.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold it right there, Doctor.
		We'll be right back.
		This is Midnight in the Desert.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		If only you believe, we only believe that God believes we could only believe.
unidentified		If only you believe in me, so would I for Dark Matter News?
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I'm Leo Ashcraft.
		A minor earthquake has struck off the northern tip of Vancouver Island.
		Natural Resources Canada says a 4.7 magnitude quake hit around 5.30 on Wednesday evening.
		The shock originated about 175 kilometers west of Port Hardy, British Columbia.
		Natural Resources Canada said there were no reports of damage and that none would have been expected.
		The ministry said the quake was not felt.
		According to a new study, Washington, D.C. is slowly seeping into the earth, and it could sink another six inches in the next century due to subsurface land movement under the Chesapeake Bay.
		The research confirms twin hypothesis, both of which are worrying.
		The first is the tide gauges show sea level rises in the Chesapeake region are twice the global average, and that levels are rising faster than elsewhere in the East Coast.
		The second is that the prehistoric ice sheets in the north, which pushed up the land around D.C. are now melting, and the land in the Chesapeake region is settling back down as a result.
		Researchers at the University of Vermont said the sinking land under the nation's capital would exacerbate the effects of flooding caused by climate change and rising ocean waters.
		This would in turn threaten the region's roads and monuments, wildlife refuges, and military installations.
		There are numerous reports of people who saw a different-looking aircraft in the sky last night.
		Many from the Denver, Colorado area say they saw a stealth bomber flying over Dick's sporting goods in Commerce City.
		This was just ahead of the MLS All-Star game, and that's the aircraft they saw, which means it wasn't so stealth.
		It made an appearance right after the national anthem around 7.15 that evening.
		Quite a few local area residents caught the stealth bomber on video and photographs.
		You can take a look at them at darkmatternews.com.
		A mystery over a group picture.
		Everyone was having a good time until they noticed that they were being photobombed by a ghost.
		Nothing out of the ordinary seemed to be going on when the photos were taken.
		But when they took a closer look, that's when they said they noticed a shadowy figure peering out at them from the second story window.
		Natasha Oliver and her friends were hanging out in her hometown of Wim in Shropshire, UK.
		Oliver told ABC News that she truly believes there is a ghost woman and her baby in that window.
		She and her friends freaked out after they saw the photo on her digital camera back in 2010, taken when they were hanging out on the front lawn of the unfinished home, still being built at the time.
		Oliver said when we saw the ghostly figure, the boys climbed up the scaffolding to see what was up there, thinking maybe someone was watching, but there was nothing up there.
		There were no floorboards or anything.
		Though the photo was taken almost five years ago, Oliver said it recently got widespread attention after she commented on a Facebook post about a fake ghost picture.
		Though some on social media believe Oliver's photo could be photoshopped, she insisted it wasn't and added she hopes to get in touch with professional photo analysts and paranormal experts to solve the mystery of the ghost in the window.
		The town of Wim, where the picture was taken, previously made headlines about reported paranormal activity in 1995 when a photographer claimed he captured an image of a little girl's ghost at the ruins of the town hall that was ravaged by a fire in 1677.
		Oliver concludes by saying, I didn't believe in ghosts before, but I do now.
		Actually, I've converted.
		Fake or real?
		Take a look at the photos yourself and let us know what you think.
		DarkmatterNews.com.
		And with that, I'm Leo Ashcraft for Dark Matter News.
unidentified		Dark Matter News
		Midnight in the desert, exclusively on the Dark Matter Digital Network with Art Bell.
		Invite you to call now, 1-952.
		Call Art.
		That's 1-952-225-5278.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we are a new show, so here come the basic best ways to call the show, speech.
		Really, the best way is if you have a smartphone, you can put Skype on your phone.
		It's a free download, right?
		Put Skype on.
		And then if you're in North America, America, or Canada, simply make out like you're going to call us, like you're going to make us into a contact, and put in M-I-T-D-51.
		M-I-T-D-5-1.
		Midnight in the Desert 5-1.
		You don't have to spell it out, just the initials, M-I-T-D-51, and then it'll be on your contact list, and you can just press it and call us.
		And the same thing goes for those of you in other parts of the world.
		We've got an overseas Skype set up, which is really cool.
		And you would just put in MITD 55, Midnight in the Desert, M-I-T-D-55.
		And then you could call us at will.
		And then, of course, the public number, which is not a single line, folks, it's many, many lines.
		The public number is area code 952-225-5278.
		952-225-5278.
		Back now to Dr. Dvorak.
		Doctor, welcome back.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's stay with the multiverse for a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How might we actually find the evidence that really says, yes, there are multiple universes?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's actually a different question from the multiverse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, multiverse.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		There was actually a report a few months ago of a discovery.
		And to put it in the scientific terms, it was a pattern in the B modes of the polarization of the magnetic field on the cosmic background radiation.
		What that means is that astronomers were able to see the edge of the universe.
		And that's radiation called a CMB, the cosmic microwave background.
		And these people said what they saw were patterns on it.
		And if there are patterns on it, then there's something larger than the visible universe that produced those patterns.
		However, as they looked at more data from other researchers, from other satellites, it was decided this was actually dust in the intergalactic region.
		And so all that fell apart.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
unidentified		Oh, you had me going, and then you crushed me.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		But it was intriguing.
		Now, I mentioned at my observatory, I've had a group of observers there.
		You've certainly heard of dark energy and dark matter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my goodness, yes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, these people have started what is called dark flow.
		That there's a general flow to the visible universe.
		And let me illustrate this with an analogy.
		If you were floating in a swimming pool, and no matter where you were in the swimming pool, there's always a current going from one edge to another, you would conclude there's something outside the swimming pool producing this current.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Okay, because this current is always pulling you from one side of the pool to the other.
		And you say, well, there's got to be something outside the pool.
		So what these people look at are large clusters of galaxies.
		And they claim that large clusters of galaxies, they're all moving in the same direction.
		And the only way for that coherent motion to happen is that there must be matter, gravitational matter outside the visible universe pulling it.
		Now, this is very much on the edge.
		Nobody has come up with any supportive evidence.
		This is a very minority view, but things like this can certainly change in very short time.
		So that's a possible way.
		You might be hearing more about this concept of dark flow.
		Also, have you talked much about in inflation theory in astronomy?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's where you're talking about everything's going away from everything, right?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		But there was this burst of inflation very early on in the history.
		This is an idea that was first developed by Alan Guth at MIT.
		It has a lot of very attractive, it explains a lot of things in the universe.
		But if this inflation theory is correct, then there has to be a multiverse out there.
		Well, I imagine People are desperately trying to figure out if inflation theory is correct or not.
		And so far it's passed every test, but it's not definitive yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I know I'm wrong, but somehow I imagine rapid inflation occurring as a result of a Big Bang.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, the Big Bang comes after.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		What you and I know as the Big Bang is sort of the coasting that goes on after inflation.
		Exactly what powers inflation isn't clear either, because we're getting down to where general relativity and quantum physics have to meet.
		And we still don't understand what those, the way to put those together.
		As Brian Green at Columbia University has said many times, the physicists have been playing a con game to everybody for 100 years.
unidentified		Really?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		We have this theory called general relativity that explains things in a very intense gravitational field and on a large scale.
		And then we have quantum physics that explain things on a very small atomic scale.
		But those two things are incompatible.
		Those are inconsistent.
		We have two theories of the universe.
		And the universe should have only one theory.
		There should just be one fundamental.
		And until we can marry these things together, we are going to have these difficulties.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to give you a chance to try and explain something to me that I ask most people of your caliber.
		Quantum physics is fascinating to me, and quantum entanglement with that.
		You know, I'm a ham operator.
		I understand communications, but I don't understand how two things can act in unison no matter how far they're separated without a form of communication that we don't begin to understand.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		You're exactly right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Einstein called it spooky action at a distance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's spooky, aren't it?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It's not at all intuitive, but it's the way the universe works.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And to put it on a fundamental level, we now live in a world with cell phones and Xerox machines and computers, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		All of that came out of quantum physics.
		We are now into what is known as entanglement physics.
		And so the technology of the 21st century, people say it's going to come out of entanglement.
		And exactly what's going to come out is, of course, very intriguing.
		To say the least being built is the quantum computer.
		And if the quantum computer, if you can actually build it, it means there are parallel universes out there.
		That's the only way to explain the way a quantum computer works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, does that mean if we could build one, we could talk to another or perhaps communicate with another universe?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're not sure.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		We're not sure how communication goes across that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Or whether what the effect is.
		On the electromagnetic radiation, which everyone knows is light, might not go across, but gravity would go across.
		And this is why people are searching for waves in the gravity field.
		These would go across other dimensions, the multiverse and so forth.
		And so far all we have is circumstantial evidence for the existence of gravity waves.
		If we ever get concrete evidence, that's a game changer.
		Teleportation is a reality now, but it's only on the atomic level.
		And people are trying to see, can you actually teleport something that is macroscopic?
		Nobody has done it, but that's where the edge of that part of science is.
		And that, of course, changes everything in terms of our culture, our technology, and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So right now, quantum entanglement, in terms of trying to get an explanation for it, we might as well call it magic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's how much we understand it.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It looks like magic.
		Yeah.
		Because it's not intuitive to us.
		But remember, we live in a universe that is low energy and is cold.
		And much of the multiverse is probably not like that.
		There's reason to think that because of the Big Bang, the part of the multiverse that we grew out of got cold and very low energy density.
		That's what we see out there at night.
		But most of the multiverse is probably not that.
		In fact, there's probably neither time nor space in most of the multiverse.
		Time and space is sort of an illusion that we see because it's cold and dark around here and low energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We understand so little about ourselves at these levels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My goodness.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And it comes down to the same questions people have been asking.
		Where am I in the universe?
		Am I alone out here?
		Where did all this stuff come from?
		We're still trying to answer those basic questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a man of science, when confronted with religious faith, conviction, how do you find yourself coming down?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, whenever I teach a class, I almost always begin by asking my students to tell me something that's true.
		I come up with the question, how do you know something is true?
		And the punchline is, there are different ways of coming to truth.
		There are various rules that we use in science.
		There are various rules that we use in the court system to find out if somebody's guilty or not.
		There's faith.
		And these are different components of culture that People are using different rules to figure out what is true and what is not.
		And as you grow old, what you accept will actually shift around.
		So, people with faith, I respect them a great deal.
		It's only when people speak things that are inconsistent or dogmatic to me that it really rubs me raw.
		But I certainly respect there are different ways of pursuing truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Sure there are.
		And it's interesting, actually, that the current Pope seems to be kind of moving religion perhaps more toward science ever so small steps at a time.
		And science sometimes moves toward the theory of how it all began.
		Not in seven days, but nobody knows.
		I mean, there is that instant, one second before the Big Bang.
		We have no idea what happened, right?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
		I forget what it is.
		We go down to 10 to the minus 20 seconds, and we know the physics to that point, but not before.
		One thing that has to be said is that as you establish truth in science, that has changed over time.
		What was considered a way to getting scientific truth 100 years ago is not the way that scientific truth is established today.
		So science, the way we do it and the way we accept research and truth, has changed over time.
		So there hasn't been any absolute in science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One more question, then I've probably got to go to the phones.
		But how close do you think we are to building a quantum computer?
		I know they're fooling around with the very basics of it right now.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm very confused about the quantum computer and what it's going to take.
		Some people have claimed that they have built one, but most people will say, no, that's not it.
		That's not producing what's expected of a quantum computer.
		I'm not sure how close.
		I'm sitting on the edge of my seat reading Nature and Science magazine and seeing if somebody actually does it.
		It's going to change everything.
		Remember, a quantum computer makes most of our life obsolete because now your credit card is not secure anymore.
		All that security is gone.
		All the military security is gone, which is why the Pentagon is extremely interested in seeing whether a quantum computer can be built or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm worried about Windows 10.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I've always been a Mac guy myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very quickly, I think we might have Sandra.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Sandra.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Skype, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi there.
		I live in San Francisco, and I'm loving your show right now because we're almost at a year ago in South Napa.
		There was a 6.0 earthquake, and that really scared me.
		And it wasn't so big in San Francisco, but just how it knocked that city down.
		And I don't think the Bay Area, there's so many new people living here.
		I want your guests to say, like, how many days we really should be prepared?
		Because I'm a member of the neighborhood emergency response team, and they say 72 hours, but I think it's really five days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If it was a big one, Doctor, how long should she prepare for?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I would say be prepared to be independent of any support for five days.
		Have enough water and food and so forth.
		And don't expect any communication or any help.
		But after five days, hopefully people will get to you.
unidentified		Well, we're trained to be self-sufficient in the NERIT program.
		And we're also trained to go into buildings when we're ready to start finding people and help evacuate people.
		But it's a scary thing to think that could be bigger than 6.0.
		So thank you.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Am I still there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're there.
		She's not.
		She hung up because something big was, a truck or something was coming toward her.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
		What I want to tell her, and this is something that we spend a lot of time thrashing about, if there's an earthquake like the magnitude 6 at Napa, the probability of a larger one in 72 hours goes way up.
		And so if there has been some destruction and you are going to start rescuing people, be aware that the ground could start shaking at any moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, is there a way to know if an earthquake that you just felt is a precursor and something big is coming or if it's just a one-off thing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't worry about it.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		No.
		The only thing which we can do is give a probability of something happening.
		For example, the probability of a World Series earthquake like the Loma Praeta happening over the next three days is like one out of 25,000 or something.
		If you have a Napa earthquake, the probability of a larger one in the next 72 hours is like one out of 20.
		So it goes way up for those next day or two.
		And people concerned about earthquake hazards and physics of earthquakes make a very strong point to the rescuers.
		Understand, if you're going into a wrecked building, this thing could collapse on you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		And it seems after earthquakes, people camp out on lawns and stuff like that for exactly that reason.
		They've seen so many buildings collapse.
		They just don't want to be inside anything.
unidentified		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And it is best if it's possible not to stay in a building during those hours.
		It isn't always possible, but one has to be aware of that.
		And even if you get a magnitude 4 earthquake.
		For the next couple of hours, you don't want to be standing on a ladder painting your house or into your car fixing it.
		Just do something else for the next few hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That makes sense to me.
		Ladder is a bad place, definitely.
		And I'm on and off roofs all the time, putting up antennas, doing that sort of thing.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		If you feel an earthquake, don't do that for a few hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So when scientists say, don't worry, there's not going to be another one.
		And they do say that sometimes after an earthquake, I was not a precursor.
		They don't really know.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that used to be what was said, maybe some 10, 20 years ago.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		But that's not what is said today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Stay right there, Doctor.
		We'll be right back.
		Dr. Dvorak is my guest.
		Earthquakes, volcanoes, quantum theory.
		We're all over the place.
		Public number is 952-225-5278.
		Lines are definitely open now.
		952-225-5278.
unidentified		www.fema.org
		To initiate a dialogue sequence with Art Bell, please coordinate your Valencians and call 1952-225-5278.
		That's 1952.
		Call Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		My guest is Dr. Devork, and he'll answer questions about earthquakes.
		I suppose if you're concerned about your area, you can ask.
		I know I did, so I understand that you do.
		Volcanoes?
		Possibly life beyond Earth.
		And, of course, the multiverse.
		All topics that we're considering tonight are anything, frankly, for a man of science of this caliber.
		So here he is once again.
		Welcome back, Doctor, and let's see who's on the lines.
		Let's go to Orlando, Florida.
		You're on the air with my guest.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		My name is Dan.
		I wanted to ask two questions if possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		First of all, do you believe, does your guest believe, that there's any truth to the charge or the claim that fracking contributes to triggering earthquakes?
		And could he comment on the case in Italy a few years ago where I believe several seismologists were actually convicted, I believe, of manslaughter because they had failed to predict an earthquake that occurred.
		I believe their charge was reduced, but I wonder if he could comment on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I heard about that, and I meant to ask about fracking, so thank you for both questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		Fracking, without a doubt, can cause earthquakes.
		It doesn't always.
		However, there's a big unknown question here, and that is whether fracking could actually trigger a destructive earthquake.
		There's a lot of earthquakes going on in Oklahoma right now, much more than have occurred in history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And they are, well, actually, it's not actually the fracking that's going on.
		It's the reinjection of wastewater that's going on.
		And that is producing these earthquakes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that is a product of fracking, right?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, for fracking is actually putting down various types of chemicals at high pressure to actually break the rock.
		Mostly what's going on in places such as Oklahoma is putting down wastewater and you put it down under pressure.
		However, if there's not enough stress in the crust already, it's not going to produce earthquakes.
		And there are many places where they're fracking, and it's not creating earthquakes.
		So it doesn't always happen, but it can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am familiar with the ones you talk about in Oklahoma that have just occurred.
		In fact, there's something odd going on with them, Doctor, and it is that people are hearing this gigantic bang just before the earthquake.
		Have you heard of that?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		That is one of the great unknowns in earthquake science, earthquake sounds.
		And people still scratch their heads, and there's so many credible people have heard earthquake sounds.
		The problem is the sound travels slower in air than the earthquake travels in the ground.
		And so what you should do is feel the ground shake and then hear the rumble.
		But that's not what happens.
		You hear the rumbling and then the ground shakes.
		And people have been trying to figure out what's going why this thing of earthquake sounds.
		So it's one of the things we don't understand in earthquake science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Let's go to...
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		There's plenty of guilt to go around here.
		In this part of Italy, there were earthquakes going on.
		Government officials, I lived in Italy for three years, I knew some of these people.
		They went to the community and said that there was no chance of a damaging earthquake.
		What they should have said is that there is no increased chance of a damaging earthquake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And because they said there's no chance of an earthquake, one happened, it did a lot of damage, fatalities.
		There's a different system of law in Italy, and they were charged and convicted.
		And most of them, except for one, actually was serving time in jail.
		It comes back to, as a scientist, how do I communicate things which are concern with the public?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or even do I communicate under those circumstances?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		However, you have to tell them.
		You can't you, if you if you try to hold a secret, the better the secret is, the more likely someone's going to hear it.
		That's why for like Mount Hood and Mount Rainier, I cannot tell you that those things aren't going to erupt next week.
		It's not very likely.
		We don't have any indication.
		But right now, there's very little risk of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess it's just not good in science in these areas to make definitive statements one way or the other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		gets you in trouble, I guess, huh?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, it depends if you...
		And it's also a test of the size of a scientist's ego.
		To be able to stand up and have a lot of attention and make these pronouncements, I mean, the ego goes way up for a while.
		But if you sit up there and you mumble around and you give all these qualifications that maybe this, maybe that, the public will say, what's the use?
		So you have to learn to actually communicate things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's somebody from one of those areas, Portland, Oregon.
		Hello, you're on the air.
		Hello, Portland.
		Portland, Oregon.
unidentified		Okay, can you hear me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear you, sort of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't have a really good connection, to be honest.
unidentified		I'm sorry.
unidentified		Sorry about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, better now.
unidentified		Go.
unidentified		My question was, you were talking about multiverses and black holes, and I was just wondering what your take was on the depiction of a black hole and multiverses in the movie Interstellar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I loved Interstellar except for the first 40 minutes.
		And I don't understand why the first 40 minutes were there that was so slow.
		Interstellar got the time dilation exactly right.
		That is, going close to a black hole, you don't age as fast.
		And I thought the way that they did it was brilliant.
		What they did with the physics of the black hole was more of a Hollywood take than what happens in science and what we know about it, or the physics of a black hole.
		I don't recall, I saw the movie, did they actually pass the event horizon?
unidentified		Yeah, he goes into the black hole, and it's a little confusing, but he basically exists in a Tesseract, and he can go to any point in time in his daughter's life.
unidentified		That's right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		If I had been an advisor on that film, I would have said, okay, let's not use a black hole.
		Let's use a wormhole.
		A wormhole has that type of physics.
		However, nobody has proof of the existence of a wormhole yet.
		That's one of the very curious things in the history of physics.
		Einstein developed the general theory of relativity in 1915.
		Less than a year later, a German scientist called Schwarzschild found solutions.
		Two.
		One was a black hole, one is a wormhole.
		And now we have lots of evidence for the existence of black holes, but we still don't know if wormholes are a reality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, the end of that movie confused me a little bit, too.
unidentified		You can actually use a wormhole as a plot point for them to travel across the universe.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And that's what happens with a wormhole if they exist.
		Also, I had no idea.
		What was the thing with the fight with Matt Damon?
		That didn't move the narrative along at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You should be an advisor on a movie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you like to do that?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would certainly entertain it.
		I'm actually the introverted person who doesn't like to be in crowds.
		That's part of why I live out in the middle of the Pacific.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Hawaii is, I don't know if you'd say it's crowded, but fairly so.
		And here you are on a radio show, thousands of people.
		You're doing okay.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		On this island, it's all rural.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's true.
		That's true.
		All right.
		Thank you very much, Caller.
		And on Scott, I believe it's Nick.
		Hello, Nick.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
		Hi.
		Hi, and hello, Dr. Dvork.
		Yeah, I had one comment to add just to the fracking discussion real quick.
		And I also had a question that has to do with a different area of your expertise.
		The other caller from Orlando brought up fracking and its effect on earthquakes.
		I live in Dallas, Texas, and I've lived here for 20 years, never felt a single earthquake until the last year.
		And I literally have felt over 30 earthquakes in the last year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
unidentified		It's pretty weird.
		It's a big topic here, mostly out of the Irving area, but it's pretty scary.
		I guess I just wanted to kind of tell you that, and I think it's really frightening because, you know, they've been 3.5s, 3.3 so far.
		But I mean, is there a possibility of fracking causing something bigger, you know, six?
		Because I don't think anything's built for that here.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's part of the ignorance.
		We know that fracking can produce earthquakes that are threes and fours.
		Whether they can actually produce sixes and sevens, we simply don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, earlier you did say there could be a sort of a rolling stone down the hill effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if you produced a little one with fracking that could turn into a big one, that might happen.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That might happen.
		And that's why the research in trying to figure out what triggers a large earthquake is so critical.
		And the ignorance is very high on this question.
unidentified		Well, it's just a little bit scary.
		My brother was visiting in town recently, and we were talking about the earthquakes, and it got to the point where there was an earthquake every two hours.
		And it got to the point where I was able to say, you know what, I think there's going to be an earthquake at 10 p.m. tonight, and I bet I'll be right within 10 minutes.
		And at about 10.15, there was an earthquake.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm curious.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		What are the officials in the state of Texas telling you?
unidentified		No big deal.
		We're talking about it, I guess, in the city council meetings.
		I don't know.
		I guess I haven't heard the official word from them, but it seems to be downplayed a bit.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		There must be a state geologist who has to issue an actual statement.
unidentified		I guess, yeah, I haven't looked into that, but it's definitely interesting.
		I had one other question.
		Not exactly related to earthquakes, but it does have to do with something I know is in your area of expertise, which has to do with just other life in our solar system.
		I'd love to get your just quick thoughts on the possibility of life on Europa or Titan, and if you think that there's any significance to those claims.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I have to give you the non-scientific answer, Oak Right?
		The one that is the passion in me.
		And that is microbial life is probably all over the solar system.
		Because we know that microbes, the deepest drill holes that have ever been put into the earth, they find microbes.
		You find them in those hot mud pots at Yellowstone.
		You find them in the ice in Antarctica.
		And the reason that they're probably spread all over the solar system is because a large impact will throw rocks out that will land on another planet or moon.
		And there certainly has been plenty of opportunity.
		But that's not a scientific answer.
		That's just one out of passion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Thank you very much.
		Great show tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Caller, and take care.
		Hello there on the phone.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Yeah, the doctor probably more or less answered my question about the possibility of eruptions of Mount Vanier.
		Let's wonder what his thoughts were on super volcano in Yellowstone.
		What's his thoughts on the possibility of that erupting?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, we did talk about that earlier, but sure.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		The possibility of an eruption of Yellowstone is non-zero.
		That is, it's extremely low, but it's not zero.
		It's erupted many times in the past.
		It is certainly going to erupt in the future.
		There is a very large body under it that's molten, and at some point part of that is going to come out of the ground.
		Whether it comes out tomorrow or whether it comes out hundreds of thousands of years from now, no one knows.
unidentified		Yeah, I was under the impression that it was like every 250,000 years or so.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's always this tendency to try to think that nature operates like a clock.
		People think about earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, that this earthquake is overdue.
		We're finding that things sort of cluster in time like earthquakes do.
		But that is still very much debated in science.
unidentified		So thank you very much, Doctor, for the answer.
		And Lance, good luck in your new show.
		I'm really enjoying it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you.
		It's very enjoyable to do.
		We're going to take a real quick break here and get back with Dr. Devork.
		Questions all over the map, anything you've got, we'll handle it.
		Pick up the phone and give us a try.
		This is Midnight in the Desert, Raging in the Night.
unidentified		Midnight in the Desert I never can say goodbye.
		No, no more.
		I never can say goodbye.
		Every time I say more, every day I make you fall.
		You can never do.
		I know you love him.
		Thank you.
		Wanna take a ride exclusively on the Dark Matter Digital Network?
		This is Midnight in the Desert with your host, Art Bell.
		To call Art.
		Please dial 1-952-225-5278.
		That's 1-952-CALLART.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I really do suggest that you put these numbers in your phone.
		Put MITP in your contact list.
		And then, of course, put the Skype MITPs in, and you can dial us free of charge.
		I mean, most people have national calling plans now, and so calling across the country or even across the world is a piece of cake.
		We really do live in a different world these days.
		I mean, a completely different world.
		Doctor, welcome back.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is a new world.
		It really is in so many ways.
		Do you have the feeling, Doctor, that technology is quickening, accelerating?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure.
		I'm also interested in history, and people have been saying this for decades, a century, of how fast things are changing.
		And so I'm not really sure about that.
		Things are changing in a different way, and that's what history is about.
		The world is not static.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it is not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the technological advances are, to me, seem as they're really ripping.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		In some aspects, they certainly are.
		But when somebody started installing a telegraph, that was a big step up.
		The steamboat was a big step up.
		So, yeah, things do move along through history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm thinking of my own.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It's just sort of hard.
		We cannot choose the part of history we live in.
		So we're spectators to it.
		It's just really hard to figure out how people 100 years from now are going to look back on us and say, well, they were immoral in this way or what they were going to go on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, while we're on that subject, do you think that travel in time, forward, backward, any way at all, will ever be possible?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		If wormholes exist, then time travel exists.
		And the question is whether wormholes exist and whether you're able to keep them open long enough to pass anything through, like yourself.
		All that is open.
		Right now, all the physics says no, no, no.
		But all the physics also said no, no, no about black holes for a very long time.
		My deepest passion in my life, ever since I was four years old, is mathematics.
		I've been so intrigued by mathematics.
		And the mathematics says wormholes exist.
		And many a night, when we do a long exposure at the telescope, I go outside, I look up at the stars, and I say, I wonder where all the wormholes are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if you'd see them at all.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is a good question.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Nobody has come up with what they would actually look like in terms of even if you had a picture of one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I saw Jodie Foster go through one.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I like that movie a lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My favorite movie of all time, frankly, is Contact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I love, love, love contact.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he touched.
		Carl Sagan even said, this is about faith.
		What is faith in your life?
		And people said, really?
		And they said, yeah, that's what I was writing about.
		I'm not writing about time travel or science.
		I'm trying to tell you about faith and what it does and the component it plays in your life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you are so right.
		You are so right.
		That is what that movie was all about.
		Calgary, Alberta, you're on here.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello.
		I've just got a couple of things.
		First of all, well, somewhat about an earthquake, but first of all, I know some people don't believe in coincidences, but how about this one?
		The moon is just far enough away from the Earth that during a full eclipse, it blocks out the sun exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Like it wouldn't be enough.
unidentified		Any further away, it wouldn't be enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're suggesting when you say that, what?
unidentified		It was put at that distance, maybe somewhat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By a creator.
unidentified		Who knows?
		Okay.
		And just one other thing, something I've heard since I was a kid, that during an earthquake or before an earthquake, like dogs or other animals know what's coming.
		That's right.
		Is there any studies on that, or is that just a tale?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Doctor, how about that?
		I mean, animals certainly sense them before we do.
		Is that fair to say?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Not quite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		If you're with a friend and one friend is standing, okay, you're in a room and you're lying on the ground and your friend is standing, you will feel the earthquake first.
		And I know many people have said this.
		You know, I was at home, I was lying on the couch, and I felt the earthquake, and my wife didn't in the kitchen until later.
		What is happening here is that people have heard of the P and S waves go by.
		The S wave carries almost all the energy, but it's slower.
		And so if you're lying on the ground, you have a better contact with the ground, and you're feeling the P wave.
		And if you're standing, you're probably not, what you're feeling is the S wave, which comes later.
		And so that's probably what they're feeling.
		In terms of the animals, people who report this are very sincere, without a doubt.
		But as I mentioned before, it's not consistent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't buy it.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's anecdotal.
		And so what they're reporting, as far as I, is true.
		What they saw is true.
		The question is Because it's not consistent That's not a scientific observation Yes but somehow Right, but Sometimes what is anecdotal becomes definitive.
		And that's excellent.
		A lot of science eventually is born out of things that are anecdotal.
		And it's a question of trying to figure these things out as to all this noise that comes down of all these stories, which one is going to tell us more about the basic physics of earthquakes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, fair enough.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Cameron, anybody with an anecdote, I certainly believe that they're telling me the truth.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That's what they saw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Cameron, you're on the air with Dr. DeVark.
unidentified		Oh, good evening.
unidentified		Good evening, Doctor.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good evening.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Before I get started, me and the guys would like to say you have some lovely birds in the background.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, those are actually frogs out there.
unidentified		Really?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Wow, that should be entertaining.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And they, well, it's loud to me every night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you let me think they were birds this whole time.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		You know, when you mentioned that, the sun was going down, and I thought they were birds.
		Later on the show, as it got dark, I said, no, those are frogs.
		And usually I have a couple in the house.
		But I don't have any in the house tonight.
		Those are all outside.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Frogs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller?
unidentified		So, anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go to your caller.
unidentified		Yeah, I was wondering about Cascadia subduction zone.
		I've read a couple of things recently, effects of that, and how that would basically drop the edge of the plate because it's a major convergence zone for a couple of plates.
		And they say, like, the tsunami would wipe out clear back to like five in Seattle.
		What would somebody standing in like between Idaho and Washington, North Idaho and the border of Washington, what would somebody feel up there in the farmhills where it's rolling and the soil is like consistency of old alluvial silt and clay there?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you're at that distance, say the border of Idaho and Washington, what you'll feel is a shaking of the ground.
		It won't be very strong.
		In fact, it will be a rather slow shaking.
		Most of the energy of the very fast waves have already dissipated.
		And so it's mostly just the shaking.
		People will probably feel that earthquake as far as Montana, maybe the Dakotas, and probably down to Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a fair way.
		Doctor, hold tight.
		We're at a breakpoint.
		We'll be right back.
		This is midnight.
		I'm Arthur.
unidentified		I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful.
		A miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.
		And all the birds in the trees, they'd be singing so happily.
		Oh joyfully, oh playfully, oh joyfully.
		What do you mean?
		Then they take me away.
		I could be sensible.
		Logical, always sensible.
		Practical.
		Then they show me your world.
		More Dark Matter News.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I'm Leo Ashcraft.
unidentified		Oh, come on now.
unidentified		Think of it.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		All the sounds of Earth.
		We Earthlings listen to them all the time.
		A baby cries, a bus rolls by, wind keens, and rains fall.
		These sounds and many more are included on NASA's Golden Record, a compendium of sounds of our planet that traveled out into space with the Twin Voyager 1 and 2 missions in 1977.
		The phonograph disc itself was 12 inches and made from copper-plated gold.
		Previously, the tracks on the album were available as individual clips, but NASA this week released them as an entire recording available to listen to on streaming music service SoundCloud.
		You can pretend you're an alien way out somewhere in the universe, encountering a Voyager spacecraft and listening to an audio introduction to what Earth was like in 1977.
		You'll hear crickets, footsteps, morse code, laughter, fire, a barking dog, and an elephant.
		The sounds on the record were chosen by a committee headed up by famed astronomer-astrophysicist Carl Sagan.
		As NASA notes, it was intended to communicate a story of our world to extraterrestrials.
		The Golden Record was created before the age of the internet.
		Would a new Golden Record today skip the sounds of a horse and cart and instead include a cell phone ringing or the clicking of a computer keyboard?
		To listen to the entire Golden Record, visit darkmatternews.com.
		UFO watchers are in a tiz over the discovery of an ancient skeleton with an elongated skull that resembles an alien.
		The humanoid skeleton was unearthed from a site known as Russia's Stonehenge, and it's being heralded as proof that aliens visited Earth thousands of years ago.
		However, archaeologists don't share the same view as alien hunters, insisting that the skeleton belonged to a female from a tribe that used to bind the head to make it grow out of shape.
		Read the full article at artbell.com.
		Got news tips, questions, comments, or suggestions?
		We'd love to hear from you.
		Visit us at darkmatternews.com.
		A mystery over a group picture.
		Everyone was having a good time until they noticed that they were being photobombed by a ghost.
		Nothing out of the ordinary seemed to be going on when the photos were taken.
		But when they took a closer look, that's when they said they noticed a shadowy figure peering out at them from the second story window.
		Natasha Oliver and her friends were hanging out in her hometown of Wim in Shropshire, UK.
		Oliver told ABC News that she truly believes there is a ghost woman and her baby in that window.
		She and her friends freaked out after they saw the photo on her digital camera back in 2010, taken when they were hanging out on the front lawn of the unfinished home, still being built at the time.
		Oliver said when we saw the ghostly figure, the boys climbed up the scaffolding to see what was up there, thinking maybe someone was watching, but there was nothing up there.
		There were no floorboards or anything.
		Though the photo was taken almost five years ago, Oliver said it recently got widespread attention after she commented on a Facebook post about a fake ghost picture.
		Though some on social media believe Oliver's photo could be photoshopped, she insisted it wasn't and added she hopes to get in touch with professional photo analysts and paranormal experts to solve the mystery of the ghost in the window.
		The town of Wim, where the picture was taken, previously made headlines about reported paranormal activity in 1995 when a photographer claimed he captured an image of a little girl's ghost at the ruins of the town hall that was ravaged by a fire in 1677.
		Oliver concludes by saying, I didn't believe in ghosts before, but I do now.
		Actually, I've converted.
		Fake or real?
		Take a look at the photos yourself and let us know what you think.
		darkmatternews.com.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		It's not radio, but it is what's next to cast your ray of light into the darkness.
		Please call 1-952.
		Call ART.
		That's 1-952-225-5278.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, everybody, we have included now the Leo Ashcraft newscast in the podcast because so many people asked for it.
		It is very, very unusual, to be sure.
		Unlike any other newscaster here, and he does quite the job, no question.
		My guest is Dr. John DeVorick.
		He is in Hawaii with a bunch of frauds, I guess.
		Welcome back, Doctor.
		Well, thank you.
		Lots of people want to ask questions, so let's rage along and see what we find.
		Wherever you are, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		This is Patrick in Richmond, Virginia, listening on WTWW shortwave at 50-85 kilohertz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the way to give a promo.
unidentified		That is packing a walloping 100 kilowatt signal, and I think it's lighting up the ionosphere worldwide.
		My question for your guests is, according to Einstein's famous equation equals M C square, one has to realize that C square is simply a constant of 90 quadrillion.
		So if you divide both sides of that equation by 90 quadrillion, you get energy divided by 90 quadrillion equals mass.
		It seems to me impossible that mass could hold all that energy without just vaporizing or dissolving or blowing apart.
		Could it be that this is a placeholder where some of that energy has to be transferred to a higher dimension in order for it to exist as stable gravitational producing mass?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, the equation E equals M C squared just tells you that mass and energy are the same thing.
		I think the question you're asking is whether part of that energy or mass could actually go into other dimensions.
		That's actually a very good question to ask because people are doing experiments to find out, like we mentioned, the quantum computer.
		If the quantum computer works, that implies parallel universe.
		And the question is, what do we mean by a parallel universe?
		It would be a different dimension.
		And this may sound strange, but they're trying to measure the distance between our universe and that universe.
		And to get into that, we actually have to talk a great deal of topology as to the way you do this in a four, five, or twenty-dimensional space.
		And as you can tell, I don't think I'm prepared to talk about the multiple dimensions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was going to say, sailing over my head.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but there is this question of the gravitational energy.
		Does it actually seep into these other dimensions?
		It is a legitimate question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard it said, Doctor, that that is, if we're going to discover another dimension, that's how we're going to do it, by gravity.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And the explanation, you know, of the four fundamental forces, of the strong force, the weak force, and the gravitational force in there, people have said, why is the gravitational force so weak?
		It's so much weaker than the rest.
		And one explanation is because it goes through all these other dimensions.
		And the strong and weak force stay only in the three dimensions that we have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Color, I think that's the best we can do.
unidentified		Thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for the call.
		And take care.
		Let's try, well, let's see.
		How about Jess on Skype?
unidentified		Arbell, welcome back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Fantastic to have you back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to be here.
		As opposed to the alternative.
		Anyway, do you have a question?
unidentified		I do, sir.
		Okay.
		So I live in Iowa.
		Okay.
		And approximately around May or June, early part of June, I heard what was a loud bang.
		It sounded like a car crash.
		I was sitting with three or four other gentlemen that evening, and we heard the bang, and nobody could really explain it.
		Now I'm kind of Google searching that there was an actual earthquake at New Madrid that night.
		Can Mr. Dvorak explain?
		We're four and a half hours away from there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Dvorak.
unidentified		I'm sorry, Dr. Dvorak.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, that's fine.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		No, John is okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a good question, Doctor.
		These big bangs, we're getting reports of these all over the place ahead of earthquakes.
		What in the world?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I don't have an answer.
		I would need more information as to exactly the timing and so forth.
		But as I mentioned, earthquake sounds are real, but we don't understand the physics of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller?
unidentified		Well, thank you very much for the information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Thank you for the call.
		Yeah, these really are strange.
		These sudden bangs are just plain weird.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		You know, when Lewis and Clark, in their journals, when they went across the Great Plains, Lewis writes about bangs.
		And people have scratched their heads.
		What is he hearing out there?
		The weather is clear.
		And, of course, when he talked to the people who were living out there, they said, yes, these happen.
		And we're not sure what that is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Being not sure is okay.
		Dustin on the phone.
		No, I'm sorry.
		Pottstown on the phone.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
		My name's Mike.
		I'm actually calling him from Hagerstown, Maryland.
		Good evening, Art, and good evening, Dr. Dvorak.
		My question is, are you familiar with Charles Hapgood's theory of the Earth's crustal displacement?
		It's the slippage of the entire crust of the Earth on the lithosphere as one solid motion.
		It's believed that the theory says that the Earth could have actually slipped as much as 40 degrees, where the core, the mantle stays in place and maintains its axis.
		But this does not conflict with the idea of plate tectonics, because plate tectonics, of course, plates ride on the lithosphere.
		And I think the theory originally started, it was a Russian study back in the 40s and 50s.
		And Charles Hapgood caught onto it, and he presented it to Albert Einstein.
		Einstein gave it some credibility.
		He didn't really acknowledge it as something that he was going to sign on to, but he didn't discount it completely.
		And my interest in this is the idea that recently there has been borehole drilling in Antarctica, and some of the specimens that have come up have shown tropical plants that were frozen nearly instantly.
		And if this crustal slippage did actually happen, it could have brought Atlantis from near the equator down to where Antarctica is today.
		And then that would tie in with some of the ideas of why Hitler and Nazi Germany were so interested in Antarctica.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
unidentified		Anything to that theory, Doctor?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's very interesting, without a doubt, but I have to plead I'm ignorant about it.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is true that they found tropical plants, of course, for example, at the North Pole, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Antarctica and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And that's because of the drift of the tectonic plates.
		These things go back to very early parts of Earth's history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know what I want to ask you about.
		With regard to earthquakes, I remember a really deep earthquake.
		It was like 400 miles down in the Earth that occurred, and it was felt all over the East Coast.
		I mean, all over the place.
		It was just amazing.
		How can you have earthquakes 400 miles down?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the areas where the crust is going down into the earth, like in Japan or South America, those earthquakes can't originate down that deep.
		And that's because it's a cold part of the crust is going down.
		But exactly what the mechanism is isn't clear.
		If it's a sliding of rocks, which is what happens near the surface, or people have also suggested it's a phase change in the minerals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They said it was like it ranges.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It was an earthquake that deep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it rang the earth like a bell, they said.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a large earthquake will go around the earth and it rings like a bell.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dustin on Skype, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		All right, good evening.
unidentified		Welcome back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Dr. Dvorek, fascinating topic you've been discussing.
unidentified		I do have a question regarding what we call the expanding universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you're kind of coming and going on your connection here.
		The expanding universe.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Is there a physical boundary at the edge of the expansion?
		And if so, what might that be?
		And further, if so, what might lie beyond that?
		God bless you.
		I'll take my answer on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All of us wonder.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is an edge to the universe.
		The easiest way to think of it is that it's an edge in time.
		The universe is only so old, and light can only travel so far in that time frame.
		There is a physical edge to it.
		There's a wall of radiation.
		And as I mentioned earlier, it's known as the cosmic microwave background radiation.
		And we've known about this since 1965.
		That's as far as radiation is able to go.
		And that is what you and I say is the universe.
		And the question is, for many reasons, some observations, for inflation theory, there must be mass and energy beyond that.
		And exactly what it is, how similar or different it is from us, that's what people are trying to figure out.
		But that gets us into the question of the multiverse.
		And there's certainly, in terms of thinking of geometry and so forth, yes, there's mass and energy that exist beyond.
		And as I mentioned earlier, the multiverse is mostly a froth of energy, probably very dense.
		And our universe that we see out there is this cold, low-density thing that has space and time to it.
		And that's not what most of the multiverse is like.
		But there is an edge to the universe out there.
		When I go to the telescope, there's a limit to how far I can see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is that limit now?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that limit is on the cosmic microwave background, what we see of it is at 13.7 billion light years.
		But the part we see, the light left a long time ago, right?
		And it continued to expand.
		And so what we're seeing now is probably out about 46 billion light years.
unidentified		Wow.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Another way to think about it, if you're standing on land and you look out to the ocean and there's a ship sailing away and this ocean is sort of expanding and the ship is riding the ocean, eventually it's going to go beyond what you can see.
unidentified		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And that's sort of what people are trying to explain is going on here.
		The universe, as we know as astronomers, is that part that is confined with the electromagnetic radiation, the light.
		But there's mass and energy outside of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did I hear you?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		The thing is finding experimental proof for it.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And that's what people are working extremely hard on, trying to find experimental proof for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		What did you say, about 46 billion years?
		That one stumped me.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		So this wall that we see at 13.7 billion years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Because it's expanding, what we see is in the past.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got that.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And so what we see was 13.7 billion years ago.
unidentified		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		But that has moved away from us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And that, and you just do on the calculations, that horizon is now 46 billion light years away.
		I'm trying to not say now because as we know from general relativity, there is no actual now in the universe.
		Okay, because remember all the clocks are going at different rates.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, I'm just not getting it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		46, you know, I understand 13.7 years.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		There's an atom that's sitting out there at 13.7 billion years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That I get it.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Which we got radiation from, which I'm receiving at the telescope tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Got it.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That atom in those 13.7 billion years has moved away.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And it is now 46 billion light years away from me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, what I thought is that atom had moved away, yes, and was now 13.7 billion.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		No, that atom is 13.7 billion years ago for the light that I'm receiving tonight.
		But where is that atom now?
		Because, see, it took time for that light to get to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And as that light's traveling to me, the whole universe is expanding.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		And so that atom has moved out another 30-some billion light years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I guess.
		Okay, I'm going to have to meditate on that.
		I just don't grasp it.
		Sedalia, Missouri.
		No idea.
		Thank you.
		North Hollywood, you're on the air.
		It says North Hollywood.
		Hello?
		Going once, going twice.
		Gone to Portland, Oregon.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Oh, well, welcome back, Erk.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not a lot of time, so you're going to have to get it out quickly.
unidentified		Okay.
		I was just curious what your guest's theory is on why atoms, to begin with, organize in such a manner that causes this world that we live in.
		I mean, it's like such a, you know, it's just so complex and such a, you know, right down to the earthquakes.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a very good question.
		Philosophers have tried to solve it, and I don't think anybody's come up with a very good explanation as to exactly why.
		For me, having a passion in mathematics, I say it's in the mathematics.
		Very few people will accept that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		I know.
		And some will get downright angry about it, actually.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		But to me, it's all math.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, our show is ending.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's been such a pleasure to have you here.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've enjoyed this greatly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there a website or can people look you up and find out more?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		Not yet.
		I'll have a website come up in about a month because I just completed two books and it'll describe that.
		One is about earthquakes, the other is about volcanoes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is the name of your next book?
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		My next book is called The Last Volcano.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		It's about the man who started the study of volcanoes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That sounds ominous.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		That will come out in a month, and the one that's been out is Earthquake Storms, and it talks about the future destruction of California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cherry, Cherry.
		All right.
		Doctor, thank you so much.
		We'll do it again, my friend.
john dvorak ▲ ● ▼		I'm looking forward to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
		And from the high desert to the nation and the world.
		Thank you for being here.
		Oh, don't forget, folks, open lines tomorrow night.
		We're going to do something special, That's for sure.
unidentified		be here or be whatever you don't want to be.
		Good night.
		Midnight in the desert, and there's wisdom in the air.
		I've been looking for the answers.
		All my life I felt you there as the world we live in begins.
		Are we heating up the sun?
		Have we lost our intuition?
		Are we running out of time?
		Midnight in the desert.
		And we're listening.
		And we're listening.

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