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Aug. 27, 2010 - Art Bell

02:38:04

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Human Mutilations and Abduction Phenomena - Butch Witkowski

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	From the Southeast Asian capital city of the Philippines, Manila, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whatever the case may be in whatever time zones you reside in.
	I'm Art Bell, and I'm filling in this evening for George Norrie, who's got a righteous night off in a long series of nights that he works.
	It's great to be here.
	It's great to be back.
	All the ABs are well indeed.
	In fact, as usual, if you'll go to the web page, You will note a picture of Princess Asia.
	Kind of a nice picture of Princess Asia, actually.
	She's off to ballet school this afternoon.
	And she's doing very well indeed.
	Goes to school five days a week.
	They start school here very early.
	Remember, she's only about three years and a couple of months old now.
	But she's in school five days a week.
	Pre-pre-pre-school.
	Whatever it is.
	And, uh, also ballet school now on Saturday.
	So, all the ABs well, including the furred ones, Yeti, Abby, Dolly, all doing well, scurrying around here, wishing they were in this room right now, I suspect.
	Following the show today, I've got the pleasure of going down to a hotel in Makati, uh, here in Manila, to, uh, see Dennis Machenbacher speak.
	Machenbacher.
	He's, uh, he's the head of Yesu America.
	They make ham radio gear, and so I'll be Whisking away from here at five o'clock after the show on my way there.
	I want to say hi to Charlie in Bangkok, Steve and Dan in Hong Kong, my ham buddies.
	Talk all the time on the radio.
	Looking briefly at the national news, bad eggs!
	Bad, bad eggs.
	Making a lot of people sick.
	About 1,500 people in fact so far sick from bad eggs.
	And the FDA now says they're going to inspect all of the country's largest egg farms.
	Before the end of the year, they're going to be very busy.
	Now, I mean very busy.
	They've never done that.
	Or anything even close to it.
	It's sort of gone, I don't know, unchecked.
	For decades.
	So they're going to look at all of them.
	Maybe we can start eating eggs again, huh?
	Arizona Governor Jan Brewer demanded on Friday That a reference to their state's controversial immigration law be removed from a State Department report to the UN Human Rights Commissioner.
	The U.S.
	included its legal challenge to the law on a list of ways the federal government is protecting human rights.
	I wonder what they're doing for the actual citizens.
	An American imprisoned in North Korea is on the way back to Boston thanks to Jimmy Carter.
	Big hug to Jimmy on the way back to Boston now.
	Hey, we're not having as many babies in the United States.
	Or I guess I should say y'all are not.
	The recession, it says, may have pushed the U.S.
	birth rate to a new low.
	Forget the Dow and the GDP.
	Here is the latest economic indicator.
	I doubt it will affect the Dow, though.
	The U.S.
	birth rate has fallen to its lowest level in at least a century.
	As many people apparently decided, well, they just can't afford another mouth to feed.
	The birth rate dropped for the second year in a row since the recession began in 2007.
	Birth rates fell another 2.6%.
	Wow!
	Just last year, even as the population grew, numbers released Friday by the National Center for Health Statistics.
	The recession is bad.
	I am afraid there's going to be a double dip.
	All the indicators are going south.
	I mean virtually everything.
	Revised GDP down to 1.6 percent.
	I think something like that.
	This is a very serious economic situation in the United States.
	The only area to really escape is here in Asia.
	Here in the Philippines, for example, third world, right?
	7.9% growth in the last quarter.
	So things are well here.
	Europe and the U.S.
	both locked in the middle of a pretty deep recession and I fear for the immediate future.
	Researchers using NASA's fleet of five spacecraft I've now discovered a form of space weather that packs the punch of an earthquake and plays a key role in sparking bright northern lights.
	They're calling it the space quake.
	I wonder if that has any relationship to a time quake stolen from a movie.
	The space quake is a trembler in Earth's magnetic field.
	It's felt most strongly in Earth orbit, but not exclusively in space.
	The effects can reach all the way down to the Earth itself.
	I wonder if that accounts for some of the strange rumblings that we've heard and felt that nobody can identify.
	We're going to be talking tonight about abduction and human Mutilation.
	My guest is going to be Butch Butkowski, and this is going to be a very interesting topic.
	It's a very, well, I guess, rare topic.
	You don't talk about it a lot, and I want to warn the audience that some of this could be kind of graphic, and so if you want to get the children out of the room, that would be all right, though it's not going to be graphic in the visual sense.
	To me, the evidence for extraterrestrial visitation is strong.
	It's compelling.
	Very strong, very compelling.
	I've seen it myself, so it doesn't get much better than that.
	The evidence for mutilation, cattle mutilation, is intriguing, compelling, and pretty strong.
	There's no doubt about that.
	The evidence for abduction of human beings and mutilation of human beings Is circumstantial, speculative, although I've heard stories myself, as you know, I interviewed Travis Walton any number of times and I thought that was a very, very credible story.
	But still, it's circumstantial in the sense of how much evidence there is.
	Now, I may be turned around on that this evening by our guest, Butch Bukowski.
	We'll see.
	Butch Wachowski has been an independent researcher since way back in 89, when he and four others witnessed a UFO of unbelievable size hover over a mountain.
	Not a mountain, but a mountain, I guess is the name of it.
	In Tucson, Arizona, Butch joined MUFON in 2007, giving him considerably more access to cases, of course, and on-site investigations.
	He became a field investigator, state section director, and chief investigator for Pennsylvania MUFON.
	Butch also was made a member of the STAR team.
	After relinquishing his position as chief investigator, he began the UFO Research Center of Pennsylvania.
	There he brought together the best like-minded researchers he could find in all kinds of fields.
	Forensics, photography, chemistry, law enforcement, biology, EVP, private detectives, fraud investigators.
	Private pilots, computer techs, biochemists, geology, hazardous materials, paranormal and cryptozoology researchers, along with a number of consultants in ufology, paranormal, abduction and cryptozoology.
	They'll pursue both historical and new cases, hopefully resolve some of these cases of high strangeness.
	He feels that this research group was needed and a way to go forward in the quest for the truth.
	Even though it is somewhat speculative in nature, this evening we will look into human abduction and human mutilation.
	All of that, beginning in a moment.
	All right, away we go.
	Butch Wachowski.
	Butch, welcome to Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm glad to be here.
	Good to have you.
	I have some, and I get these little computer messages as we go on with the program, and there are some who are already saying, look out for Butch, it's going to be disinformation.
	Wow.
	Any idea why anybody might say that before we even get started?
	No idea.
	Okay.
	I love to ask people this.
	I'm going to ask you how and why you got into ufology.
	Um, after seeing a, um, a sighting in Tucson, uh, with some other folks, it was, uh, pretty nasty.
	Uh, we all stood there and stared at it and, um, made some calls to the local police department, sheriff's department, local air force base.
	And everybody kind of thought we were crazy and they had no reports.
	And we knew what we saw.
	We all saw the same thing at the same time.
	And, uh, What did you, what did you see?
	Butch, what did you see exactly?
	I saw a craft, bronze in color, approximately 1,500-1,800 feet above a mountain, and about 300 feet in length, maybe six, seven stories high, and totally silent, just hovering, and then rose up a few thousand feet and just was gone in a shot.
	So fast, I couldn't believe it.
	Well, I'm with you there.
	I've had my own sighting.
	I'm sure you've heard.
	Or perhaps not.
	It was triangular in nature and just above my head.
	There was no mistaking it.
	That's why I said at the beginning of the show, you know, there's no question in my mind.
	As far as sightings and visitation is concerned, they are there.
	It's strong, compelling evidence.
	Period.
	So we're being visited.
	There's very little argument, certainly from this audience, for that.
	Then we get to mutilation, intriguing, compelling, you know, the cows and so forth and so on.
	Abduction and mutilation of human beings, that's a little more speculative for me, but we'll get to that.
	Um, you were in, you were, you obviously, after having a sighting like that, I, you know, I understand completely.
	You kind of go into shock, and I guess that took you in to move on, huh?
	Well, I stayed at it until, I think it was late 2002, and then I just gave up.
	I just figured there was no No end to it, and you couldn't get an answer, and every time you'd ask a question, you were just getting another question.
	And then I went to MUFON in 07, thinking I could get more information and be around more researchers and try to get some answers, but that didn't work out either.
	It just seemed like they did a fine job of taking the cases, but then there was never an answer.
	They were put into a database.
	That's kind of where they stayed.
	So I didn't get an answer there.
	Well, that is Mufon's job, though, to collect the data and to keep it.
	And so you at least then had access to a lot of files and a lot of cases, right?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And I got to look at a lot of things from way back.
	I mean, they kept records in 69.
	So they did a real good job at that.
	And then I just got antsy and, you know, wanted to go further.
	And around 2000 and Beginning in 2009, I started putting together the UFO Research Group of Pennsylvania.
	Okay.
	What did you learn with your research group that MUFON couldn't give you?
	We could go a little further in the fact that we had professionals, people that were working police officers, working fraud investigators, and so forth.
	It was just a lot easier getting information and there was a lot of avenues opened up as far as forensics and stuff like that that we couldn't get from move-on.
	Um, did anything in any of the cases that you did, I don't want to dive too deeply just yet, we're just beginning, but with the ability to have forensics at hand, I know, you know, in a murder investigation, it's frequently the thing that makes the case, a little hair, a little DNA, a little something, so with forensics available to you, You probably did get more than MUFON.
	What kind of stuff became available to you?
	Evidence?
	Well, like in the Carbondale case, the Lantern case in Carbondale, Pennsylvania, we had gotten the original reports and then we went to the site and we were there a number of times and samples and water samples and soil samples and direction and actually measuring the area and You know, doing a real physical walk around of everything and matching up the original report showed us that the report was all wrong.
	Everything was wrong.
	They talked about a current that was moving this light around inside the pond.
	Well, it's a silt pond.
	There is no current.
	We tested that and right now we're having some side scan radar done also.
	We can't prove what went into that lake.
	I'm sorry, into that pond.
	But we can sure as heck prove it wasn't a lantern.
	That's a fact.
	Okay, make me a little more familiar with the case.
	Something went into a pond.
	Yeah, some young folks were standing on a corner in Carbondale, Pennsylvania and they witnessed a bright light come over a mountain and kind of give itself kind of a controlled landing into a silt pond at a coal mine and they called the police.
	The police didn't come right away and then They called him again.
	They didn't come.
	They called him a third time, and he finally showed up.
	And one of the officers, upon getting out of his car, fired his revolver into the light four or five times, which was kind of strange.
	And then a researcher from Philadelphia shows up three days later and takes control of the case.
	Dr. Daines, he comes out of Chicago from Hynek's Outfit, and so everybody's studying this thing, but it's like three days after the fact, and the folks are saying, the townsfolk are saying that something was taken out Sunday night.
	It happened on a Sunday night.
	Military was there, took something out on a flatbed, and the rest of it was just play-acting with the lantern, and then they refused divers from the local area to go into the pond But they allowed a diver who just happened to be listening to it on his car radio and traveling on the turnpike and happened to have his gear with him to dive the pond.
	And he dove the pond and came up with the lantern.
	We've had the lantern.
	We've gotten a number of lanterns, which are the exact make and model.
	And we even got one battery, which would have been from the time period that this took place.
	And we sent a letter to battery people that made that battery for Sears robot.
	And we told them that when the battery was brought out of the water, when the lander was brought out of the water, and the battery was removed, that the battery was split open and it was losing the interior acids.
	And we asked them how long that battery would stay lit.
	And the guy said, well, the battery would never be lit because the continuity was lost.
	But the report said the battery was lit for three and a half days.
	So there's just a lot of things that we had to chase down to, you know, get the information we got.
	And as soon as we're done with the side scan radar on it, we're just going to probably put an end to that one.
	Like I said, we can't prove what went in there.
	We sure can prove it was not that lantern.
	Have you ever been able to prove an abduction slash mutilation case of a human being?
	No, that's a relatively new investigation.
	I was asked to do a presentation on abduction by my director in Pennsylvania two years ago, and I really never heard of anything like that.
	And while I was doing some research on the abduction, I came upon this mutilation stuff and started to dig into that a little bit, and it really gets really wild.
	Well, abduction itself is wild.
	I, of course, have interviewed Travis Walton.
	A number of times, and I found Travis's story, and in fact his boss's story as well, and those involved to be very credible.
	That's abduction.
	Mutilation is obviously a gigantic step further.
	You're familiar with Travis's story, I'm sure.
	Yes, yes.
	How would you rate that in the, I don't know, on a scale of 1 to 10 in the abduction stories?
	I would say it's definitely an 8.
	Up there at an 8?
	Yeah.
	If he had just a little bit more evidence it would probably be a 10.
	Yeah, evidence of course is very, very difficult.
	Do you have any idea or even a best guess, I'll settle for a best guess, Butch, about why Aliens would abduct and even mutilate a human being, or a cow for that matter.
	In other words, what do you think is going on?
	Why?
	There have been so many, I've found so many different reasons that that was taking place.
	From the, of course, the government side of it, where people are saying, well the government's doing that because they made this deal with the aliens back in the 50s to Uh, abduct people just for experimentation or examination and then they would return them and then you get the, uh, the cows are used for some mixture of their blood and, uh, organs to make some type of a food supply that they rub on themselves, which is saturated in their skin because they do not eat like we do.
	Uh, you know, there's just one after the other, um, which nobody can ever say anything that You know, this stuff has taken place.
	You know, we know of the abduction scenario.
	You know, we know there's a capture.
	We know there's an examination.
	We know there's a conference where the abductors speak to the abductees.
	We know there's a tour of the ship, lost time, the return.
	And it's all the same.
	It never changes in that respect.
	Well, that's almost evidence of a sort all by itself, the fact that it never changes.
	All right, Todd.
	Not.
	But hold tight.
	We're at a break point and we're going to come back and get a whole lot deeper into this.
	And anybody who knows anything about the mutilation of human beings by others from elsewhere, we'll be talking to you too.
	Other side of the world, actually, from the majority of you.
	Good morning.
	I am Art Bell, and it is a night off for George.
	We're looking into human abduction and mutilation, and we'll get back to that in a moment.
	Coming up tomorrow night, continuing the Coast Weekend, is Ian Punnett here now to tell us what's up for Saturday.
	Hi, Ian.
	Hey, Art.
	Noticed it until I just heard it right there, but it almost sounds like Charlie Daniels is rapping.
	It's pretty close to a rap.
	Yeah, I guess it is.
	The rhythm that he hits is pretty good.
	Two things tomorrow night.
	Our main guest is an expert on the occult and on mysticism, as well as being a founding member of the rock group Blondie.
	He's in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and he's writing about Carl Jung, mysticism, He writes a lot about how occultism is still at work in American politics.
	And we'll talk about that tomorrow night, along with Harry Shearer in the first hour, who is taking a look at how it was that New Orleans was in the crosshairs of the world at the time of Katrina.
	Why, in a way, it was set up.
	Why did Katrina, why did it happen to New Orleans?
	What were the factors involved five years later?
	We'll talk to Harry Shearer in the first hour.
	I guess you've heard the news about the possibility or even probability that police officers in New Orleans were given an order to shoot unarmed civilians who may have been looting.
	You heard that, right?
	Yep, and we're going to talk to Harry about that.
	We're going to talk to Harry, too, about how it is that in a lot of ways some of those early weird things about how the people were being treated during Katrina Are still in effect today and still may be at work in how they're treated as a result of BP and the oil spill in the Gulf.
	We'll talk about that tomorrow in the first hour.
	You know, Ian, I think people should listen because it'll give you an idea of how quickly society can degenerate to virtually an animal state.
	And if the economy were to really go south, Ian, well, listen tomorrow night.
	OK.
	Thanks.
	Ian, thanks a million.
	Have a great Saturday show.
	Take care, buddy.
	Alright, I guess he's gone.
	Alright, in a moment we'll get back to Butch Wachowski and I've got a little story somebody named Barbara sent me that I want to read for Butch.
	Stay right where you are.
	Alright, we'll get back to Butch in just a second.
	I want to read this to you.
	It was sent by Barbara.
	I'm going to redact the name.
	Even though the name of the victim is given to me, I'm not going to read it for, I don't know, various reasons.
	People's feelings and that sort of thing.
	It's a real case.
	Barbara says, I'll be as brief as possible.
	A man named, redacted, Was abducted and murdered by aliens on Montour Ridge in Northumberland County near the town of Northumberland, Pennsylvania.
	This is a big sloppy cover-up, Barbara says, if there ever was one.
	The victim lived at the foot of Montour Ridge, a mountain stretching about 20 miles east.
	Name redacted, went up to the mountain to look for pre-season deer.
	He told his wife that he'd be home by noon.
	He rode his four-wheeler up the power line, that's a power line road I guess, beyond his home at a little after five in the morning.
	Noon came and No name redacted.
	His wife and children became concerned.
	At two, a search party was organized with local, state police, paramedics, and 200 volunteers, all helping to search for name redacted.
	The four-wheeler was found on top of the mountain near a power line.
	Tracking dogs could find nothing to go on around the four-wheeler.
	The search went on for two days, and over six miles of mountain were covered from top to bottom.
	He had apparently vanished without a trace.
	The four-wheeler was, keep in mind, two miles from his home at the foot of the mountain.
	A pond just a few hundred yards from the house was even searched by skin divers so they overlooked nothing.
	Dogs were over the whole area consistently.
	No results.
	No trace.
	In the evening of the second day, something white was spotted in a large brushy area about 25 feet from the pond.
	Police and rescue workers spent 20 minutes cutting and hacking brush in small trees so they could reach what looked like a body.
	It was name redacted.
	He was wearing his underwear.
	He was emaciated, not bloated.
	He was white.
	He had an expression of horror on his face when he went up the mountain.
	He was fully dressed.
	Boots, camo vest, hat, socks, pants.
	The FBI showed up within 30 minutes.
	of the discovered body.
	They took charge.
	They wouldn't let his wife look at her dead husband no matter how much she tried, and you would think they would want an identification.
	The FBI asked questions around the area, neighbors, mostly farmers.
	Three farmers on one farm, that's three of them mind you, said they saw a large, round, bright object just above the power lines at the time of the disappearance.
	It was silent, It did not move for about 10 to 15 minutes.
	That's quite a while.
	It suddenly went up and then suddenly stopped.
	The light shone down.
	Something was pulled up into the light.
	And then it went straight up.
	Hesitated again.
	Then went west over the Susquehanna River and out of sight.
	A police friend of mine said after two, not one, but two autopsies, Nothing was found.
	A toxicology test revealed nothing.
	So no drugs.
	No visible cuts, no bruises anywhere except from the brush.
	Now, the body is at Allentown.
	From there it's going to Fort Indiantown, Gap, Pennsylvania.
	The wife was told she cannot have the body for six to eight weeks.
	A boot was found.
	Get this, a mile from the four-wheeler, a few days ago, at the top of a tree, it was his boot.
	I notice military helicopters have been scouring the mountain ever since at least once a day.
	If you need additional information or verification on anything, contact me.
	And again, I'm deleting Barbara's last name.
	Does that sound at all familiar?
	Yeah, quite.
	It's a case that we've been working on for a little over two years.
	Oh, it is?
	Yes.
	I would definitely like Barbara to contact me, because there's a couple things that she just said that we're unfamiliar with.
	Oh, really?
	Yes.
	It's a well-known case.
	Peter Davenport, if you're familiar with him, Of course, yes.
	And I have been working on this for a little over two years with a couple other investigators.
	It is a... I don't know how to put it.
	It's one of those cases where you have a lot of information, but you don't have a lot of information.
	You have what the police are saying, what the witnesses are saying, what the newspapers have said.
	And Peter Davenport's report was the very first report made on the case.
	It was very thorough.
	He was in contact with a lot of people.
	And the report that she just read to you is Peter Davenport's report.
	There are a lot of things in the report that we've been trying to prove, but we cannot because it's still an open case.
	The autopsies did not find anything that we're aware of that was a cause of death.
	I was just going to ask, a cause of death?
	The toxicology did.
	The toxicology, which came back a number of weeks later and was given out in September by the police department, Queen Township Police, stated that Mr. Cease died of a cocaine overdose.
	Really?
	Okay, well that's contrary to what I read here.
	It said toxicology came up empty.
	Right, yeah.
	First, she said there were two autopsies, nothing was found.
	Toxicology revealed nothing.
	No, it did not reveal anything, but the toxicology that's done at a post, which is like a preliminary, Would be like in a drunk driver case, the blood alcohol would be taken, that would be done right there at the hospital.
	Sure.
	Drugs or bullet wounds, residue from a gunshot or stab wounds, type of knife used, etc.
	would take a little longer.
	The toxicology for drugs is a breakdown of all bodily fluids and it does take quite a while.
	It's usually a three to four week process.
	But there's a sedimentation period with some of the fluids and, you know, it just takes a little while.
	And when it came back and it said that he died of a cocaine overdose, I mean, everybody was quite surprised about that, especially Peter.
	It just seemed like there was so much information that came forth.
	And a couple witnesses that he had that I am not privy to at this point were in the search team.
	We tried to find out some information on it and one of my colleagues who was investigating it even before I was with Peter called the Point Township Police and wanted to get a copy of the police report and they basically told him that it's still an open case.
	Still an open case.
	Did they find, to your knowledge, any physical, you know, paraphernalia or cocaine at the scene?
	No, sir.
	Not that we're aware of.
	Isn't that strange?
	And it doesn't seem like he had any record of that type of use.
	Some friends of his were just talked with within the last four or five weeks.
	One of the investigators was up there and one was with the fire department who was also with the search team and he knew nothing of any drug use and he had known the gentleman for most of his life.
	Okay, well let's venture into an interesting area here, Butch.
	When the police are working on a scary case, you know, some kind of serial killer case or something like that, they frequently withhold that information for as long as they're able.
	I mean, you know, the public has a right to know and all of that, but they do withhold information because they don't want to panic.
	Communities and that's understandable and it's it's I mean unless there's something the public can really help out with there's no point in setting off a panic now For that reason they keep it secret so imagine If there was a case of mutilation or there was a case of a clear abduction or abductions, surely telling the public that somebody had been abducted and parts were found at the top of a hundred foot tree or something would be something they'd keep a lot more secret than they would a normal serial killer or something of that sort, right?
	Well, yes, but there is one more part to that.
	Sure.
	Another reason you would keep a case open would be, some of the reasons you would keep a case open would be toxicology wasn't right or a witness came forward and said something quite contrary to the whole investigation or to homicide investigation.
	Well you would think it would be case closed the moment the toxicology came back and said cocaine overdose, that would be... That's exactly right.
	Should have been it.
	That's exactly right.
	Uh, either the Point Township Police have something else they're working on or, uh, you know, they're, they're looking at some other type of charge or maybe there's other people involved that, you know, they don't want to make known or that we're not going to know about until it's done.
	Um, it's the only reason they would keep the case open.
	I mean, once, once the toxicology would come back and say, you know, like the gentleman died after getting hit on the head with a hammer.
	Okay.
	That's it.
	It's done.
	The case is closed.
	And this case is not closed.
	This is an open case.
	Well, of course, murder cases stay open forever, virtually, until somebody's caught, right?
	Yes.
	And in this case, we don't know that that's a fact.
	I mean, this case is like one of those conundrums wrapped up in an enigma, you know, in a mystery.
	So much stuff comes forward, and then when you check it out, it's non-existent.
	Okay, let me take you in another direction for a second.
	I want to know, in the United States or in the world, if you have the figures, I know that thousands and tens of thousands of people, I guess, disappear every year.
	They just disappear.
	Now, obviously, some run away to South America or some island or something in the Pacific or whatever.
	Obviously, even perhaps a large percentage.
	A lot of people just disappear and they're never, ever heard from again.
	What kind of numbers are we talking about?
	The last check I did with the National Crime Reporting System, which is where all police departments report to the FBI every year on all the cases, everything from bicycle theft to murder, slaughters of any type, accidents, missing persons.
	When I did the research on that, about 95% of the people that go missing are found.
	Those are your runaways, mostly teenagers.
	They compose the biggest number.
	Then you have the spousal abuse, and you have drug abuse, you have old age folks just walking off into the woods and down into the valleys.
	There's a whole number, but there's like 95% of that number of about a quarter of a million Yeah, only in the U.S.
	We couldn't get any numbers outside the U.S.
	because most of the countries don't keep any numbers.
	You know, if 50 people walk off in Africa, that's 50 people that just walked off.
	Right.
	But it still left that 5%, which was about 30,000.
	So if you take that 30,000 times the 10 year period that I looked at, it's quite a bit of people.
	That's a lot of people.
	But you're not on a cell phone, are you?
	No.
	Okay.
	A quarter of a million.
	95% or 5% of that 250,000 is still a lot of people.
	And those people are simply never found.
	Never found, gone.
	Men, women, children of all ages, all backgrounds.
	From judges to street cleaners.
	I mean, they just seem to disappear off the face of the earth.
	And it seems to be a phenomenon that is only in the Western countries, you know, like they keep numbers, of course, in England and in Germany, France.
	But when you get to the smaller countries, like, or larger countries that don't keep those numbers, like Africa and Middle East, you know, the numbers are phenomenal.
	And if you just add another five years on to them, you're talking about quite a few people.
	Yeah, you're talking about a lot of people.
	And where are they?
	I mean, you know, I can see a lot of them, you know, a lot of people found and I understand what they're saying with, you know, the teenager runaways and the spousal abuse and drunks and all that kind of stuff.
	But that 5%, they don't have an answer for.
	Nobody can find an answer for, but they're gone.
	It seems to me, Butch, that if you're an alien, let's just project here, if you're an alien, you want to abduct a human being, the last thing you'd want to do is return the human being in a mutilated form, or any other form for that matter, so that they could tell their story.
	Or so that there could be a forensic examination of the body And we could all begin wondering, so you would think if they're going to take human beings, why not keep them and deposit them either in space or on the moon or wherever in the world, but you wouldn't put them back, would you?
	No.
	I think our little grey brethren from outer space are a little bit more malevolent than they are benevolent.
	Well, there's only one really... Remember I told you I had a thing about disinformation?
	Yeah.
	Okay, this one is from Vince.
	Vince says...
	I strongly suspect your guest to be disinformation.
	Please don't let CIA assets make their way onto your show to make the public afraid of aliens.
	Abductions and mutilations are intelligence operations using electromagnetic technologies.
	Alright, so what he's afraid of is that what you have to say, Butch, Well, if that's the disinformation that I'm supposed to be shelling out to the CIA, then I'll stand by that.
	thought of as warm, fuzzy, little, I don't know.
	Well, if that's the disinformation that I'm supposed to be shelling out for the CIA, then
	I'll stand by that.
	But there is one case out of all these cases that we've found that is so well documented
	that I had a family physician look at it.
	I've had other investigators look at it.
	And it's probably the best investigated case of mutilation that has ever come across.
	And it happened in Brazil.
	All right, we're going to get to that.
	We're at another break point here.
	I'll say it again.
	It seems to me that if there are abductions, and I think clearly there are abductions and mutilations, the last thing you'd want to do is return the body.
	So, in the cases where bodies are returned or found, I would think that would be a mistake, because if you're an alien, you have a craft, you can go anywhere you want, there's no need to return the body, and cause a lot of suspicion and angst, no reason at all.
	You simply keep it, and as the police say, find a dump site not on Earth.
	From the other side of the world, good day to you.
	The sun is high in the sky here, and it's presently, I don't know, about six minutes or so after two o'clock in the afternoon.
	That tells you how different it is, and it very much is different here.
	It's a different world altogether.
	It's almost like, I don't know, it's almost like Well, as close as I can get, traveling to another world.
	Those of you that have not traveled to Southeast Asia, do so in your lifetime, if you're able.
	I think you'd be very surprised.
	Butch Witkowski is my guest.
	We're talking about human abduction and mutilation.
	It's kind of way out at the fringe of the whole UFO phenomenon, but I think there very well may be something to it.
	There are many cases, and there are many cases, by the way, that simply are not reported, and yet many more cases that nobody knows a thing about because people simply are gone.
	And that would be my expectation.
	If all of this is real, as I mentioned and will mention again now, certainly those who are doing the abducting and or mutilation would have no reason to deposit or dump the bodies back in a place where they could be found and where we could begin to get on the track of all of this.
	So, that's sort of how I see it.
	Butch has a case he's going to describe to us in a moment, I guess one of his favorites or one of the best cases coming right up.
	All right, Butch, back we are and you were about to dive into a case that I guess is one of your favorites.
	Yeah, I guess only because it is probably the best documented.
	A lot of the cases that we found, the documentation was very poor or the Uh, individuals that were involved in the case were long gone or passed away or could not be found.
	But this one came with, um, photos of the crime scene and the autopsy report, which, um, you can get and view on, uh, the internet.
	Oh, no kidding.
	All right.
	This was in Brazil?
	Yep.
	Uh, it's, uh, it took place at the Guadalparanga Dam, which is, um, um, right outside of Sao Paulo.
	It is a man-made dam lake used to supply water to San Paolo.
	It took place in 1988.
	The body was seen on an island in the dam area by fishermen who were offshore.
	It was in full view.
	There was no attempt to hide the body.
	It was just dumped there like so much rubbish.
	You know, it just laid there.
	The witnesses, instead of going there and, you know, Getting all over the crime scene did the smartest thing which was they went and called the police and the police showed up with forensic investigators also.
	The corpse was lying face up, only had on a pair of shorts.
	Now the shorts were taken off to do the damage and then were put back on.
	Vanity I guess.
	I have no idea why.
	But the police didn't do that.
	The mutilation was Exactly like cattle.
	So, I guess for those folks that don't know what cattle mutilation is, when cattle are mutilated, the most things that are missing or most things that are pronounced are the carcasses drained of blood.
	There's no trace or any substantial amount around or in the body.
	There are unusual holes found in the carcass, usually one to one and a half inches in diameter.
	They're produced by some kind of a sucking device.
	Uh, or a laser type of device, which can cauterize the room, uh, the wound with extreme heat.
	Uh, and that's been used in every case.
	Uh, the anus of the area is cored out, uh, just like you'd core out an apple.
	And the, uh, bodies, uh, the carcass is emptied of its digestive system.
	Uh, the, um, sensory organs are taken, eyes, internal ears, tongues, glands of the throat, sexual organs, lower intestines.
	And, and that's pretty much in every case of catemutilation.
	In addition, I believe, you never ever find footprints coming to or leaving the area.
	You also find predators not interested in such remains.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	There have been photographs taken by the New Mexico State Police, which actually has a unit that investigates cattle mutilation, where they've set up cameras and watched wolves.
	And coyotes walk around the carcass.
	That's like you and I walking past a buffet table that's free.
	Right.
	They're just passing up a free lunch, but they will not go anywhere near it.
	Is there any reason that anybody's been able to discern for that?
	In other words, is there some scent or something that would cause an animal to not be interested in such a free lunch?
	No.
	I've never read anything that gave any information to that, but in one case, they actually took a carcass that was hit by a car and they put it 150 yards away from a carcass that they were investigating, and within minutes, vultures were on that carcass.
	The predators were all over it, yeah.
	They were all over it, but they never touched the other carcass, which was laying there.
	There's got to be a reason they could uncover Butch for that.
	There's got to be.
	All I can think of is, you know, animals operate on sense of smell very strongly.
	I don't know what other senses they might have that we don't know about, but I know the sense of smell is a very strong one, and maybe there is some scent, and maybe they'll look into that, that causes the animals to not be interested.
	One of the, and again it's the New Mexico State Police I believe, That's doing some work on that, where they've sent stuff to private labs.
	And the organs, like the heart and the liver, are like mush, they're like peanut butter.
	And to do something like that to an animal, it would take a huge burst of radioactivity, a radiation burst of some sort, to turn those organs to that.
	And another thing they found, the blood, that little bit that they find inside the bodies, doesn't clot for several days.
	Now, I have pups, and, you know, my pups get into trouble, too, and they'll nick or cut themselves, and, you know, the blood stops within a matter of minutes, just like a human.
	But this blood doesn't clot.
	It doesn't do anything for several days, and then it'll start to coagulate and it'll clot.
	They took the body, took photographs, of course, of everything, and the body was in good condition.
	Uh, now you gotta take into account for the heat in that area of the world.
	Just like where you're at.
	Just like Southeast Asia.
	The heat there is unbearable.
	So, this victim was killed within 48 to 72 hours prior to discovery, yet there were no sign of putrefaction, no signs of any wounds on the body made by any predator or animals, no bullet holes, the body gave off no odor, and the body showed no signs of rigor mortis or liver mortis.
	That's very incredible.
	Yeah, very strange.
	High strangeness.
	If you hit a rabbit on the road and come back a day later in a good heat, that rabbit's almost the size of your car.
	That's right.
	So the wounds were the same type seen on mutilated cattle and other mutilated animals.
	The eyes, the lips were removed, the mouth cavity was emptied, the ears were removed, along with tissue from parts of the face, along the jaw, head, neck areas.
	There were one and a half inch diameter holes in the upper chest where the tissue, most
	likely lymph nodes, had been extracted.
	An exact duplicate hole is located on the upper right arm where all the muscle tissue
	was removed, the bicep especially.
	Another duplicate hole is located on the left leg where a muscle tissue from the thigh was
	removed.
	An inch and a half hole through the navel is seen where the intestines were removed.
	The testicles and scrotum had been surgically excised through the penis, but the penis remained.
	It was also stretched to twice its size as it looked like some type of instrument was
	used to remove the prostate via the urethral tube.
	And the anus had a three to six inch incision to empty the digestive tract tissue.
	It is exactly a carbon copy of the surgery seen done to so many UFO related cattle mutilations.
	Was there an associated UFO sighting?
	That nobody can come up with.
	There are many sightings in Brazil.
	They're almost on a daily basis in that part of the world.
	And also, to take note, Brazil has one of the highest records of injuries from UFOs recorded, where cars are run off the road, accidents are caused, people are burned by them.
	Wounds appear like days after sighting, radiation burns, and that's predominantly in South America.
	I was going to say, it's not just Brazil.
	It's Mexico, for example, as well.
	Mexico has had so many close encounters.
	In fact, they've had collisions with UFOs from the Mexico City Airport.
	Yeah, and Puerto Rico is another one where there's a lot of sightings coming out of where there's damage to either
	property or to livestock or to persons.
	The most horrific thing that we found when we had the autopsy which is by the
	way is in Spanish which we had to get
	deciphered for us was, this kept coming up and it comes up several times
	in the autopsy report, the words vital reaction.
	Okay.
	Now the reference to vital reaction means, um, well, let's put it, if I was a police officer explaining this to a judge, I would be saying that, you know, a vital reaction is, uh, uh, if you would stab a person that is dead, okay.
	You would have the, uh, of course the mark of the knife going in, And it would be a nice, clean cut hole, and you could take the knife and slide it right into the hole again, and it would fit perfectly.
	You stab a live person, they twist, they turn, they jerk, they pull.
	That knife is not steady.
	That knife is being moved in a number of directions, so therefore, around the wound, you're going to get a lot of hematomas, blood bruising, and blackness, and black and blues, and different colors all around that, those wounds.
	Sure, and if it's post-mortem, there's no blood moving, so you're not going to get much bleeding.
	Exactly correct.
	Well, this guy, as they're describing the wounds, they're also describing putting in vital reaction.
	Now, when they say that, that means that this guy was alive when this was done.
	My God.
	He could not have been dead.
	He had to be alive to cause the vital reaction.
	And when they opened up the cranial cavity, like they do in an autopsy, numerous cerebral edemas are found.
	Cerebral edemas are caused by, if you had a person that was crushed in an industrial accident, and you know it was a very slow crushing, well of course the panic, everything that's going through their head, their brain kind of like starts to backfire.
	And little vessels in the brain start to burst because they're, you know, it's agonizing.
	It's, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's, it's a, just this painful, unbelievable pain that the, and they know they're going to die.
	So all this stuff happens to their brain.
	When they opened this guy's brain, uh, took the brain pan off, this guy's head was full of it.
	So that was the kind of the icing on the cake as far as this guy was alive when it caught, when it happened.
	What a horror to imagine yourself alive during a dismemberment of that kind.
	Oh, my God.
	Well, you know, and like the guy with the misinformation thing.
	Okay.
	Nobody would make this up.
	The police report and the autopsy report and the photographs we have are all signed by the police.
	I mean, their names are there, the dates.
	It's sealed.
	It's on government paper.
	You know, and it's not the only case.
	It's the best documented case, but it's not the only case.
	There's a case that took place in the Beni Mazar region of Cairo.
	Three families in 2005 were mutilated in exactly the same fashion.
	Every man, woman, and child was butchered in the same manner.
	Local police blamed it on a mentally retarded guy who didn't even live in the area.
	So the townspeople basically figured he was the scapegoat and that was the end of it.
	And that was where the case ended.
	And it's like so many of these cases that we find, they start out well.
	Don Ecker, I'm sure you're familiar with him.
	Yes.
	Fellow researcher.
	He was director of Idaho MUFON back then in 1989, and he investigated a report of a mutilated body that was up in a remote area of Bliss, Idaho.
	The corpse had extensive mutilations to the facial area, complete excision of the sexual organs and abdominal organs.
	And when he got there, it was an absolute predisposition to repress the whole story by the officials.
	They said, uh, nothing more on the case and that was the end of that.
	The case you mentioned in Egypt, that was, did you say three families?
	Yeah, three families.
	Three families?
	Yeah.
	Um, mutilated in the same fashion?
	Yes, exactly the same fashion.
	Um... I don't know that a mentally retarded fellow could carry all that out.
	No, no, no, no.
	What about, I mean, if you're going to mutilate somebody in that fashion and remove the things that you mentioned that I'd rather not repeat right now, were they there or were those parts simply gone?
	Parts are gone.
	Parts are never found.
	Even in cattle mutilations, the parts are never found.
	None.
	I mean, you would think, there's one picture that just till this day after I saw it, it just amazes me.
	If anybody out there is familiar with a cow, they have more than one stomach.
	Okay?
	And the stomach lies very close to their udders.
	And there's a picture on the internet, and they can find it.
	Just look under cattle mutilation.
	It'll show up sooner or later.
	And you'll see there's a cow laying on its side, and the udders are removed.
	And you can see the stomachs.
	And they're done.
	It's taken out.
	The udders are taken off with such precision that they never even nicked the stomach.
	A friend of mine who's a surgeon, a brain surgeon, said, I'm not that good.
	And he said, I work inside people's heads.
	And I'm thinking, wow, whatever they're using has got to be so unbelievable.
	And it's, you know, we have some cattle mutilations where the bodies are found that they've been dropped from great heights.
	Yes.
	Every bone in their body is broken more than once.
	So... In other words, these things are done with surgical precision or what is...
	Beyond conventional surgical precision out in the middle of nowhere.
	Yeah, they're all and none of these are done like you know on like downtown Manila.
	I mean this stuff is all would be found in the furthest parts of jungles.
	There were there were some cases that we're still looking into and I'm beginning to believe that they're just somebody's story that took place in Vietnam during the Vietnam era and there were some real atrocities that took place there but This was a group of, a Maxog group on a mission, a special operations group, and they came across a group of aliens loading body parts from a prior firefight into plastic containers.
	And the firefight ensues between the Maxog group and the aliens.
	Of course, the aliens lose, and these guys are all taken back and given a chemical cocktail to make them forget what happened.
	Then there's another one that came out a little while ago.
	A naval photographer stationed with an Air Force group to investigate the crash of a B-52.
	And this B-52 was supposed to be, like, just laying in the jungle like somebody had placed it there.
	It did not crash.
	And the gentleman states that, you know, he photographed the cockpit area and the control area of the craft, and everybody was still strapped in their seats, yet they were mutilated just like cattle.
	We did a search of the crashes of B-52s during the Vietnam era.
	No B-52s came down actually in Vietnam.
	None that was reported anyway.
	And the gentleman, I guess there's a couple more, he spoke at some kind of UFO conference in Las Vegas, Nevada.
	And, you know, he's a combat photographer, and he said, look, he says, I just started remembering this stuff, you know, a few years ago, and he thought he'd bring it out.
	But he said the crew was still strapped in their seats, but they'd all been mutilated.
	And typically... Again, in roughly the same fashion you described?
	Yep.
	He says typical clean cut wounds that you'd see in an animal mutilation is exactly what he photographed.
	And he said the investigation team Uh, that was there, which was, you know, from, uh, most likely CIA or something like that.
	They were ordered to burn the plane and the occupants where it sat.
	Really?
	Well, you can imagine the motivation for doing that.
	What the government cannot explain, it generally covers up.
	And why not?
	You don't want the public scared of this sort of thing.
	I mean, this is real terror.
	There are a lot of people, Butch, and you might be able to help me out here, who absolutely, almost as a religion, I want to believe that aliens are, you know, benign, furry little things that want nothing but the best for us.
	And I never have believed that.
	I've never believed it.
	And I don't believe it now.
	I think that they're potentially very dangerous, that they've looked at us very carefully.
	And even if you do, even if you look at us, you know, subjectively, we're a warlike people.
	And if they're looking at us that way, they, well, they just might not treat us the way we would wish to be treated, and certainly the government wouldn't want us to know that we're potentially in that sort of danger.
	All right, we're at another break point already.
	Butch Gutkowski is my guest.
	Mutilations the subject.
	From the other side of the world, Manila in the Philippines, I'm Art Bell.
	This night for George Norrie, who's taking the evening off, we're discussing human Abduction and mutilation.
	Sometimes abductions don't result in mutilation, but instead in implants.
	As you know, Whitley Strieber is a very, very close friend of mine, and I have no doubt I've discussed in detail with Whitley About the implant in his ear.
	And had you listened to a previous show with Dr. Roger Lear, you may recall there was an operation done on Whitley in order to remove the implant.
	His ear would turn beet red suddenly.
	In fact, I've seen it happen.
	And they went in with a scalpel to remove this thing, whatever it was.
	It actually showed up in imaging.
	They went in to remove it with a scalpel and when they got close to it with the scalpel, It moved.
	And it moved sufficiently that the surgeon did not want to continue and scar him up, so they stopped.
	It's still with Whitley.
	So sometimes, you know, it's not a mutilation, although I suppose it's a sort of mutilation, to install something in somebody's body.
	Why would they be doing this?
	Of course it's a big, big question mark.
	The whole thing is a big question mark.
	And we will continue with Butch and stories of human abduction and mutilation in a moment.
	Actually for years I've been in the camp of these are not our friends and again I really want to make reference to the number of fast blasts I'm getting who really object to this and it's people I think who I'm not sure.
	It may have to do with fear.
	It may have to do with the fact that people use the rationale that aliens, if they're there, simply by virtue of the fact that, you know, their technology would have to be so far advanced I think that's a lot of it.
	in the first place, that they would be socially advanced, that they would be warm and fuzzy,
	they would have a great sense of political right and wrong, PC, that they wouldn't be
	doing these sorts of things, that they wouldn't need to do these sorts of things, and they
	realize, I guess it's fear.
	It may be fear.
	Butch, what do you think?
	I think that's a lot of it.
	I think a lot of it's fear.
	The cases of abduction where these folks are never found, I mean, that's a big question.
	And...
	And I'd hate to think that they're all coming to the same end as some of the reports that I've looked at.
	But you know, in an age where nuclear and biological and chemical weapons, which if they were deployed could decimate an entire race, We seem to just keep muddling on.
	I see more people panic over gas prices than the thought of a nuclear holocaust.
	So if they panic, if they were told by the government that aliens are here now and have been since forever, I don't think the government's going to be willing to talk too much about that matter.
	And then there's this.
	I mentioned Whitley Strieber.
	What about abduction and then implants?
	That's got to fit in somewhere here.
	It's not always mutilation.
	It's not always just flat disappearance.
	Right.
	Sometimes it's, hey, there's something in me.
	Oh, yeah.
	Implants.
	And then there's multiple abductions where, you know, a person is abducted many, many times over their lifetime.
	And, you know, very little is done to them.
	An examination here or there or they say they're brought back to kind of like report on how they've been doing and, you know, almost like Old Home Week.
	But I just don't think that they're as malevolent or benevolent, rather, as people think they are.
	I used to think if I ever ran into one or bumped into one during an investigation, I'd want to walk up, shake his hand, invite him in for a beer.
	Not anymore.
	I tell people, you know, if you see something and it looks like it's going to land or it's coming close or whatever, run.
	Just run.
	Yeah, but in fact, when you think about it, if you're investigating these things, and I assume from time to time when you're able on scene, there is a stronger possibility for you than there would be for the average person of, you know, having to come to grips with some sort of close encounter.
	Have you thought about that?
	Uh, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Um, yeah, as you know, my family, especially like, you know, Hey dad, what happens if you run into one of these guys?
	What are you going to do?
	You know, you got a little old to run.
	Well, I guess I'll have to put up a fight, but, uh, uh, it's more important, I think, to find out why, uh, that, that, that, that the truth and why is a big thing.
	And, you know, that's one of the reasons we started You4Cop, to find out, you know, get to the end of it, or at least get to a point where we can get some answers, or we know where to go to get some answers.
	Okay, well, do you have any best guesses, Butch?
	Is that why?
	The why of it all?
	In other words, why are they doing this?
	If you put it all together, if you put together the implants, which obviously are to monitor us, and then you move all the way to mutilations, which are to dissect us, I guess, and find out about us?
	Well, the thing I have the problem with the dissection deal is, look, you know, if you dissect one human being, okay, you know exactly what the next human being has.
	There is no difference.
	In the autopsy of a male and a female, with the exception of the female organs.
	That's it.
	They're, you know, the muscles is the same, the ribcages are the same, you know, the bone structure is the same, the skull is the same, the brain is the same.
	So if they did one, why would you have to do any more?
	And if you don't have one now, why would you have to do any more?
	What about genetics, Butch?
	You know, there are so many stories when it comes to the mutilation and the abduction scenarios and phenomenon that, you know, first of all, they come up with, well, the government made a deal with the aliens that, you know, of course we could take so many, and they reneged on a deal, so now they're keeping them.
	Then you have Dulce, you know, then they have Dulce Base out there in New Mexico where they say, you know, they are actually turning these people into hybrids or having them birth hybrids.
	Or they're just using them for food sources and, you know, it can get so wild and so far and so stretched that, you know, it just makes the answer go so much further away.
	I just got a thing on email here.
	A lady says she has an implant in her knee and would like somebody to come check it out.
	So, I don't know.
	Well, at least, you know, when you have implants, you have some form of evidence.
	And of course, I guess even with human mutilations, you have evidence occasionally.
	I just think the majority of them are not returned.
	And again, we've got so many disappearances that are unaccounted for, simply, totally unaccounted for, that they could be taking people and we would not know they were taking people.
	Exactly.
	And the numbers are staggering.
	I mean, so, you know, I only did 10 years.
	So if I go back to the turn of the century and use the same formula, we'd be talking about billions of people, not millions.
	Are there any ongoing cases right now?
	No.
	None that we can find.
	Is there any indication, Butch, that they've been tailing off?
	In other words, that there were more years ago and there are not as many now?
	Well, I was talking to some researchers down in South America, as a matter of fact, in Brazil, and Portugal, and where else were we talking to them?
	Argentina.
	And a lot of things, of course, you know, you're familiar with chupacabra.
	Well, these holes that are being found in certain people that they say were chupacabra victims, These researchers believe were human mutilation victims, and in those countries, cremation is not a big deal.
	I mean, it's not like cremation is here.
	We use cremation a lot here to dispose of bodies.
	In those countries, burial is a very religious rite, and cremations are very seldom done.
	But it seems like, like the one investigator told me, uh, from Argentina, he says every victim that he's gone to see, or tried to see, has been already cremated by the time he gets there.
	He said the body was found yesterday, it was cremated yesterday.
	He said that's impossible, they can't do that.
	But it's being done all the time, he said.
	So, where he's going to look at what he thinks is a chupacabra victim, you know, when he's told what the wounds look like, that they're all exactly the same size and they almost look like They've been cauterized, or they've been cut with a precision instrument.
	Well, that's not an animal.
	I mean, if you look at an animal that's been ravaged by, say, a wolf, I mean, they're shredded.
	They're torn apart.
	And the first place they go for is, you know, the underbelly, the soft part of the body, and they just rip and shred and tear.
	And, you know, you're looking at these cattle that are in just as good shape as this guy was found in Brazil.
	Mike in San Diego fast blasts that you dodged my question on genetics.
	Certainly not all humans are the same with regard to genetics.
	That's true.
	Yeah, that's very true.
	But I don't know.
	It's very hard for me after seeing the evidence on this Brazil case.
	That anything genetically or hybrid-wise or any type of an experiment was carried out that would mean anything to anybody here because they're doing the same thing to cattle, horses.
	I mean, I see no correlation there that anything would be being done in a medical sense to advance Us or them or anything else.
	This is just flat out butchery and in every case the same organs are taken, whether it's cattle or human, the same organs are missing.
	Why is that?
	I don't know.
	Here's something from Randy in Africa.
	We are a game preserve in Africa.
	The implants are simply their way of tagging us.
	Abductions are their biological study of us.
	Mutilations are poachers just like here in Africa.
	I think he's probably got a good theory there.
	And you know, if all these cases of abduction turned into mutilations, there'd be bodies
	laying all over the place.
	That's right.
	And the tagging, I truly believe he's got a real good point there.
	I've talked to Dr. Lear.
	I've been to a couple of his conferences and seen some of his work.
	Especially the one case where he took out three pieces that were broken.
	He actually broke them taking them out of this thing.
	Put them away, locked them up.
	They were under security guard for the evening.
	He got them out in the morning and it had grown back together.
	Really?
	It's something, it's a living thing.
	Yeah, I actually had not heard of that one.
	They grew back together?
	Yeah, he gave that, showed those pictures at the X Conference in 2009.
	And I'm sure if you get a hold of Dr. Lear, he'd be more than glad to give you that information.
	But yeah, he actually broke them taking them out of the person.
	And then put them into a vial, and I guess they used some blood serum to keep it in so it thinks it's in the same area.
	And then he retrieved it the next morning to do some measurements and stuff, and the three pieces grew back together.
	So it was back as it was, one piece, before he broke it apart.
	When you've got something like that, Butch, why isn't science looking harder at it?
	In other words, we hear from Dr. Lear, a very credible source, but you would think that's so fantastic, so out of this world, so to speak, that, I don't know, the biologists would descend like locusts on good Dr. Lear to study this sort of thing.
	They don't, and it kind of stops there.
	Why?
	Well, it's just like these mutilations with ufology.
	You know, these reports were so quickly dismissed as just misinformation and stories concocted by lurid tabloids, and the cattle mutilations were blamed on everybody from religious cults to predators.
	And the reports today, if you go to give something like this at a conference, say, put out by MUFON or another large organization, First thing they'd do is they'd dismiss it as, you can't do that, it's bad taste, it's just not to be mentioned.
	Well, it is hard to talk about.
	I mean, Butch, look, when we're on the air like right now, talking about, you know, human beings being dissected and mutilated, it's not easy to discuss and people sort of, they're so scared of it, they're so freaked out, they just don't want to hear it.
	Well, it's all over the internet.
	They can find it.
	They can look at it.
	Uh, you know, it's nothing that, you know, I've concocted.
	I've taken everything I've gotten from, uh, what investigators I could get hold of down there.
	And, and, uh, the only other case, uh, that I'm still trying to get information on is the New Zealand case from 1994.
	And the guy's got the same wounds as the guy in Brazil in 1988.
	I mean, I'm looking at a drawing taken, I guess it looks like It looks like it was probably a drawing made up from an investigator who was being dictated to the information, but the wounds are identical and in the same spot.
	Boy, isn't that strange.
	I mean, from one side of the world to the other.
	Rare, but we get the bodies.
	They're mutilated in exactly the same fashion.
	Now that just doesn't make sense.
	No, and in, you know, in 1998, I'm sorry, 1988, Skywatch International, if you remember them?
	Sure.
	Okay.
	They reported a case which took place in 1956 at the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico.
	A U.S.
	Air Force Sergeant, Jonathan P. Lovett, was reported to have been abducted while on a search for some missile parts.
	He and his commanding officer went down to look for these things after a recent test.
	The commanding officer's on one side of the sand dune, and he's on the other side.
	The commanding officer hears a screaming, runs over to sand dune just to see that this Sergeant Lovett is being pulled into a craft by something wrapped around his leg, and off it goes.
	Three days later, his body's found not far from the abduction point at all, a couple hundred yards.
	And he's terribly mutilated, totally nude.
	His mutilations read like a horror story.
	Along with his eyes, tongue, lower part of the jaw, anus, genitalia, and other pieces all removed.
	Anus cored out all the way to the colon.
	Exactly the same as cattle.
	And this is 1956.
	Anybody have any thoughts on why this is being done while somebody is still alive?
	You know, if you speak to a doctor or a pathologist, is there Is there any reason or any gain that a physician, for example, could imagine in the research area?
	Any gain for doing this while somebody would still be alive versus, you know, post-mortem?
	No.
	When I was talking to a couple of doctors about that, Some brain surgery is performed while people are awake and alive, you know.
	There's a lot of surgery done now where, you know, I had cataract surgery done last year, two years ago, and I was basically awake for the whole thing.
	Well, brain surgery is not a problem.
	You can be awake with brain surgery because you don't have nerve endings in your brain, so you actually don't feel a thing.
	But there was a case in Colorado And this was two researchers, two UFO researchers, are going to look at cattle, a cow that was found.
	And the one guy's taking his pictures and doing this, that, and the other thing, and the other guy's taking some measurements.
	And he calls the guy over, his partner over, and he says, what's wrong with this picture?
	And he's looking at the face of the cow.
	And he says, I don't see anything wrong other than the eyes are missing.
	He said the cow was laying on its side, correct?
	He says yes.
	He says the eyes were taken out.
	The viscous fluid behind the eyes should have run down the side of the animal's face, correct?
	He goes, yeah.
	He said why is the viscous fluid in this animal running down its snout and off its nose?
	The cow was standing up.
	The cow was standing up when it was done?
	Yeah, it had to be.
	That's the only way the fluid would have flowed.
	If the cow would have been on its side, the fluid would have flowed, you know, off to the side.
	And this fluid came right down its snout and off its nose.
	And there it dried.
	And again, there's never, never any evidence found of somebody walking in or walking out.
	There would have to be some sort of evidence and there never is.
	And then there's the predators.
	They won't touch these carcasses.
	So, something with high strangeness has done this.
	There simply is no question about it.
	Yeah, I mean, some of these animals are found in very remote areas where it has snowed.
	And there's not a footprint, not a pad print of any type of animal, nothing around, no tire tracks, no snow move from chopper, helicopter, blades, like some people say, the government's doing all this.
	The government doesn't need to do this.
	I've always thought that was such a ridiculous argument.
	The government can get all the cows at once.
	Exactly.
	I mean, they could just round up cattle day and night if they want to do that.
	They could raise their own.
	And we've had cattle mutilations as early, well the last reports that I got were in April and May of this year and both in Colorado.
	One was found near a riverbed, a cow.
	where her udders were removed and I, I, the ear, the inner throat, the whole thing.
	Butch, hold tight. I'm sorry, we're at a break point. We've got a break right here.
	Butch Witkowski is my guest. I'm Art Bell.
	From Manila in the Philippines, land of 7,000 and seven islands.
	That's a lot of islands.
	I'm Art Bell, filling in for George Norrie, and we're discussing something of a very, very sensitive topic, actually.
	Human abduction and mutilation.
	And it's not frequently that we talk about this subject.
	It's difficult to discuss at best, and I want to caution you, you know, if there are children in the room, ought not be at this hour, back in the U.S., it might not be a good idea to include them.
	This is the stuff of nightmares, to be sure.
	So caution please.
	Remember I've got email if you want to connect with me.
	I'm artbell at mindspring.com.
	That's A-R-T-B-E-L-L lowercase at mindspring dot com.
	And I'd love to hear from you.
	I'm doing my very best to answer all I can.
	You know we were discussing earlier in the show, if you encounter a UFO, run like hell.
	And then I thought about my own single big experience of the triangle above our head with my my dear wife now past Ramona and I recall that we not only did we not run but we were frozen in place we were in shock and by the way the shock lasted long after the experience but as this thing passed over our head
	We were standing adjacent to the car that we had stopped, and we just froze in place.
	Absolutely froze in place.
	And I don't think we could have moved had we wanted to.
	And it strikes me as kind of silly at the time, in a sense, but it was shock.
	Absolute shock.
	After it was over, you know, Ramona was Catholic, very religious.
	She didn't want to talk about it.
	And that remained the case for years afterward.
	She didn't want to talk about it.
	And in a way, I don't blame her.
	But I do recall the state of shock.
	And it just froze us.
	Absolute froze us in place as this thing approached and passed directly overhead and then kept going.
	We just stayed frozen for, I don't know how long, five, ten minutes, something like that.
	It was interesting.
	Butch, what do you think about that?
	Run like hell is a good thing to be suggesting here on the radio, I suppose, if you believe they're not benign.
	But really, that kind of thing does absolutely put you in shock.
	Yeah, and there's been so many other things happen with people that have stood underneath or gotten really close to them.
	Where they've gotten radiation burns.
	A father and son down in the Bristol, Tennessee area suffered some pretty serious burns.
	And I guess the father now has developed cancer.
	And then, you know, the Texas case where the two women and a child were burned when they got within range of one.
	So it's not so much the human mutilation factor or, you know, whatever.
	We just don't know what they are.
	We don't know if they're If they can hurt you biologically, or burn you, or they're radioactive, we don't know.
	The gentleman that, Sergeant Pendleston, that touched the UFO over at Reynoldsheim, ran his hand across it, and his head felt warm.
	I don't think I would have done that.
	I mean, he's a brave guy, but I wouldn't have done it.
	I don't think I'd want to touch something like that.
	You don't know what you're going to get.
	One animal that was...
	Uh, done in back in 67.
	I mean, the lady wanted, it was her horse and she wanted to pick up a piece of the flesh that had been laying there and some kind of green ooze came out of it and burned her.
	Uh, so I don't know.
	I don't think I'd want to be doing anything around them.
	Even Robbie, who fast blasts from Tokyo, Japan, says Stephen Hawking recently cautioned about the likelihood that ET is not friendly.
	So if a mind like Hawking thinks they may not be friendly, then the rest of us have to consider it a very strong possibility.
	Yes, and you know, Stephen Hawking...
	I've read a few of his papers, and the guy's brilliant.
	And if he's going to tell me to stay away, I'm going to take his word for it.
	Me too, but as I pointed out, and I'm not kidding, I absolutely was, went directly into a kind of a state of shock that lasted for some hours after the encounter.
	I couldn't have moved, I don't think I could have moved, and I guess I wanted to take it all in.
	I don't know, but I couldn't have moved, I can tell you that much.
	I suppose if something untoward had occurred, if some beam had come down or something, of course by then it would probably have been too late, but something to cause me to really be in fear I would have run, I guess.
	But I do understand how people just get frozen.
	Well, about maybe six, eight months ago, I was privy to see another.
	And this one was quite different because it was, it was pretty much daylight out yet.
	And I was leaving work and heading to my car and I saw this very bright, I mean, brilliant white, almost like a flashbulb type of white coming across the horizon.
	And it looked like it was slowing down.
	And I'm like looking at my car and I'm, you know, where I'm standing, it's a good 500 yards.
	I'm thinking, can I get to the car and get to the camera and photograph this and get back?
	No way.
	They'll find me laying there out of breath.
	You know, the ambulance was just carping away.
	And I'm looking at this thing and it does slow down and it turns upright and it turns the brightest red I've ever seen in my life and shoots straight up out of sight.
	And there was a gentleman standing aside of me and I looked at him and he was just A gape, you know, the mouth was down around the chest area
	and his eyes were focused forward and straight up.
	And I said, did you see that?
	And he said, that's the biggest helicopter I ever saw.
	And I said, there's no helicopter.
	He says, in my mind, that's a helicopter.
	I'm out of here.
	And he left.
	So I really had reservations about making that report.
	I'm thinking nobody's going to believe this.
	So I thought, now, the hell with it.
	I'll make the report.
	So I make the report.
	And five minutes later, one of the investigators calls me and says, hey, I got an identical
	report to yours and the time difference is only one minute off.
	And the guy and his wife were 82 miles north of where I was standing.
	Wow.
	And I'm going like, you know what, I'm going to quit looking up.
	And people ask all the time, you know, how do you see these things?
	You know, look up.
	And most people don't.
	Most people go about their life looking at the road ahead of them or whatever is in front of them, but not up.
	You're absolutely right, Butch.
	Butch, I'm curious, where does your research go from here?
	I mean, you get to a certain point, you know, you've researched these mutilation cases and so forth.
	Well, we'll keep mutilations as an open case, and we'll always be checking on that.
	And, of course, the case of the gentleman up in Montoursville is an open case with us.
	And we have a couple other open cases and we have some new cases.
	We just got done with a case at the Bell Bend Nuclear Plant here in Pennsylvania where a lady who is very credible as she teaches police officers for a living and she's traveling home on a road and there's a beautiful blue sky and there's just this one odd looking cloud in the sky.
	And I mean she says it's the only cloud in the sky so she grabs her camera and takes a picture of it and sends it to me after she downloads it and says there's something inside this cloud.
	So I look at it and a couple of my guys look at it and they're all going like yeah there's something there but you know we don't know what it is it just looks like a line.
	Uh, and so I sent it over to a fellow in England who took a look at it, uh, who's an expert, uh, at that and is part of that Mars group that, uh, over there that researches the Mars photographs.
	And he says, well, there's actually three, uh, uh, objects in the cloud at the bottom.
	The large line you see is a large saucer type object.
	Above it is, uh, at the 11 o'clock position is a, Small saucer top object with a beam going down to the larger one and off to the right at about the two o'clock position, you have another one coming into view.
	And I'm like, that's great.
	And then so, you know, now we're on the nuclear thing.
	And I want to tell you, there's more sightings of UFOs around nuclear plants in this country than I ever imagined.
	I mean, they're constantly showing up.
	And I'm thinking like, you know, okay, what do they need a nuclear plant?
	I mean, these guys have propulsion that Takes them through the galaxy at rates of speed, or they're interdimensional, or whatever.
	But why the interest in the nuclear plants?
	And then you go back, where they shut down complete nuclear bases where there were nuclear weapons.
	I'm aware of that, Butch.
	If you go back to the beginning of ufology, the modern beginning of ufology, it sort of coincides with the first detonation of a nuclear weapon.
	Now you would think From any distance, the above-ground detonation of a nuclear weapon would get the attention of anybody interested in what's going on on this little green planet.
	Oh yeah.
	Yeah, I don't remember where I either read it or heard it at a conference or something like that, where somebody says, you know, they can just imagine somebody up in space looking down when that was first detonated going, oh my God, the kids have found the matches.
	That's probably a very good reason.
	You know, how many times did we think during the Cold War that any day would be, you know, a nuclear holocaust?
	The last day.
	Butch, I've got to take another break, but when I come back, you know, I'm wondering if statistically, with regard to abduction, you found any commonality in sex, age, race, religion.
	As you put the stats together, do we come up with anything that makes any sense at all?
	We'll be right back.
	I can get so wrapped up in a topic that I just let a break go right by a commercial break, and that's something the network really hates.
	So anyway, Butch, sex, age, race, religion, anything else?
	Any common factors?
	About the most common factor was young adults aged 13 to 19 was the most of the people that were missing.
	But, again, like I said before, as they cleaned out and started to get down to the whereabouts and the findings, that same group was the group that was most likely to be found.
	The runaways.
	Yep.
	And followed by them, it was females in the aged 30 to 40 group.
	And males started again at very young ages.
	Also went back into that 95% of being found, but carried on with males in their 40s and 50s as missing.
	And a lot of that, when you look at the reports, it almost looks like a lot of them had dementia or the beginnings of Alzheimer's.
	Because they all had medical records pertaining to those illnesses.
	Okay.
	I wonder if that's the reason for the disappearance or that's what's being studied?
	I think that's what's being studied.
	I don't think that's the reason for the disappearance.
	There's just too many people.
	I mean, if we were talking about, you know, 100,000 over 10 years, well, that's nothing.
	You know, that could be just people walking off.
	Okay.
	Butch, do you think that our government is well aware of what's going on?
	Absolutely.
	You do?
	Yes.
	Do you think, as the old rumor goes, that a deal was in fact made?
	Yes, I do.
	My little attention is paid to what's going on that, you know, if If it was a government that was being forthright, and I walked up to them and gave them these cases and said, hey look, this is happening here, they'd put out a warning immediately.
	Or they'd start looking, or they'd start doing something.
	But this stuff, like I said before, it's just considered by the government and ufologists in general as bad taste, not to be mentioned, never happened, never gonna happen.
	When do you think this deal was done?
	done? 50s, early 50s. And for them to come forward now and say, you know, people with
	disclosure ask me all the time when is there going to be disclosure.
	That's never going to happen.
	Do you realize what the government would have to admit to?
	Yes, I do.
	From Roswell to whatever happened last week or tonight, I got a report of one in Washington State at 9 o'clock this evening.
	A UFO buzzed somebody for over a minute.
	Are they going to admit to that?
	No, I could call Washington State and State Police or anybody else out there and I'm going to get the same answer.
	Nope, never happened.
	Don't have anything on it.
	But yet they have radar tracks.
	They have pilots.
	Leslie Keen just came out with her thing.
	And, you know, her book UFOs, where she's got generals and pilots and, you know, telling all they know.
	And you would think the government would be jumping right up there.
	Now, some governments have come forward, and I... I was about to say, not all governments are as the U.S.
	government.
	No, and I think England's big problem was Nick Pope.
	You know, Nick Pope was out there, and, you know, he was beyond that.
	I guess they have kind of a limit on their secrecy act, where we don't.
	So, they had to come up with something.
	And then, of course, Spain followed, and then, you know, even Iran.
	You know, they came out with the information.
	And Portugal, and there's a number of countries that are coming forward, but I don't think you're going to see that from us.
	I really don't.
	And if it does happen, I'll go on your show and I'll be the first one to say, look, okay, I'm an idiot.
	I should have saw this coming.
	But I just don't see that coming.
	All right.
	Jane in Killeen, Texas says, if a patient is alive while the mutilation is taking place, adrenaline would be rife in the blood.
	Maybe they want the adrenaline too, so I don't know about that.
	But is, in fact, that one result?
	Certainly that's true, although there isn't much blood left, is there?
	No.
	In what little blood there is left, you would think there would be a great deal of adrenaline?
	Well, the blood in the autopsy report, there's very little mention about the blood because I guess there was so very little there.
	And I guess what was there, according to the autopsy, Uh, and we had a little trouble with the wording.
	It looked like the guy was trying to say that it had been contaminated.
	Now, I don't know what he means by contaminated.
	Uh, was he cleaning or was somebody cleaning or just cleaned an instrument or was cleaning an instrument, say with alcohol or, or, or betadine or something like that and, and got to that blood or, or was there just not enough to test?
	But I would find that hard to believe because you can test very, you can test a drop of blood.
	Um, But there's no mention of that in the autopsy report at all, but she is right.
	It would be loaded with adrenaline and there's nothing.
	You keep track of sightings as well.
	You're a good friend of Peter Davenport.
	What's going on with sightings?
	Are sightings on the increase or decline?
	Sightings seem to be on the decline, but that's probably normal.
	It just seems like when the weather's hot, Uh, and we have a lot of storms in areas.
	It just seems like, when I look at records from last year as to this year's time, uh, there were, uh, again, the reports started to slow down, and then they'll start picking up again, uh, in, uh, around October.
	And more sightings, of course, because of clearer skies.
	You won't have all the haze from heat, so there are clearer skies and colder.
	And, you know, it's the best time to see these things when it's clear and cold.
	Mm-hmm.
	I would say they're probably about the same.
	I don't see a whole lot of difference across the country.
	Pennsylvania is probably right where they were last year, according to what I've been looking at.
	And the Pennsylvania group is, you know, they do a good job of...Mufon Group does a good job of keeping track of their stuff.
	So, you know, when I look at it, you know, it tells me that, you know, I can go back last year and it measures up pretty much the same.
	But it seems like a lot of the upswing on sightings has been in the, again, in the Texas area, and now in a couple reports out of Arizona, which, you know, if we got two or three of those a month out of Arizona, that was strange.
	But I've gotten two tonight.
	Fletch in Los Angeles says, think cold and think remote like an alien.
	Think of how we dissect frogs.
	We don't do one, we do many each year for students and study them.
	And he's right, we do.
	And that's another good point, just like the guy from Africa.
	Yeah, we know what's in a frog, but for our students we do it again and again and again and again.
	So, who's to know about their motivation?
	Right.
	And one of the things that was strange, though, about the case in Brazil, which everybody that looked at the reports found the same thing, where the guy was found, of course, all the sexual organs and the anus had been cored out and removed and all that.
	Now, they had to take his pants off to do that, right?
	They couldn't do it through his underwear.
	But when they find the body, the underwear is intact.
	It is pulled back up.
	Now, In the case of a serial killer, that usually indicates some sort of remorse or something.
	Right.
	What do you call it in this case?
	Is it remorse?
	Why would the body be just dumped out in the open like that?
	Do they have that much disregard for us?
	You know, like so many gnats that they can just swat and get rid over.
	Or frogs?
	I don't know.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Hold it right there, Butch.
	We're coming up on a break and what I want to do is I want to go to the phones here shortly and we'll get the numbers up for you as we come back from break.
	But if you have a question, about abduction, about mutilation, or even better, if you have some sort of personal experience, we would particularly like to hear from you.
	I know this audience is centered on topics of this sort.
	Many of you have knowledge of things that have occurred like this, so if you're one of those, We'd particularly appreciate a phone call.
	As I mentioned, as we come back, we'll lay the numbers out for you.
	From Manila, Philippines, I'm Art Bell.
	A lot of people are asking, where is the photographic evidence?
	Well, fortunately or unfortunately, because it's tough to look at, there's a lot of it, if you go to Google and just put in human mutilations, it'll take you to Brazil, among other places where you can actually see the photographs.
	But warning, You know, this is tough stuff.
	And, you know, as a general rule, an absolute rule, really, you wouldn't see this sort of thing displayed on U.S.
	news anywhere.
	But, of course, the evidence is on the web.
	And you can see it and decide for yourself.
	So for those who ask about evidence, it's there.
	Just a little bit of caution when you're looking.
	We're going to open the phone lines.
	That's occurring right now.
	So if you've got something relevant, As in some sort of experience or perhaps you have a story.
	Love to hear from you.
	Those are the numbers.
	We'll be right back with all of you.
	On a unrelated topic, just before we go to the phones, George was absolutely right about that.
	He was talking about the government wanting to know about every penny you have.
	And this last time that I did my taxes, of course I'm here in the Philippines and I have bank accounts here in the Philippines, and they passed a new law and they want to know Uh, about any foreign bank accounts you have.
	And, you know, I thought about that.
	And I almost didn't do it.
	I was so angry.
	It's kind of like...
	This.
	This is money that I earned.
	This is money that I've already paid my taxes on.
	Right?
	So if I wanted to take that money and go throw it in the Potomac River, I could do that, presumably.
	Not that I would, but I could do that.
	Or I could go handing it out to the poor.
	I could do a million different things with my money.
	But once you've paid your taxes on your money, what damn business is it of the governments Oh, what you're doing with it.
	Now, I went ahead and I, you know, did as my accountant said that I should do and reported my foreign bank accounts.
	But the more I thought about it, the more angry I became.
	And I actually thought about not reporting.
	But I didn't do that.
	You know, when you're a high profile person, they love making examples of them.
	So I've always been very fastidious about reporting.
	It's just that what business is it of theirs what you do with money that you've already paid your federal taxes on?
	It doesn't, it just doesn't make sense to me.
	All right, we're going to go to the tones.
	Butch, are you ready?
	This is a tough topic, and I don't know what people are going to have to say about it, but we're about to find out.
	Okay.
	Okay, here we go.
	Let's begin with Shelly in Northern Kentucky, I believe.
	Shelly, welcome to Coast to Coast AM.
	Hello, Art and Butch.
	Well, okay, let's see how I start this.
	You remember that the government, supposedly years ago, didn't want people to know about aliens because it could affect their belief in God.
	And when you mentioned Ramona before being a devout Catholic, I just said that I'm a Catholic with way too many questions.
	And, you know, the only way I can put this, you know, you love Gordon Lightfoot, and he has a line in Edmund Fitzgerald, does anyone know where the love of God goes?
	And you can put any disastrous, horrible thing in, you know, in the blank.
	But I'm wondering, where do you stand?
	How do you two feel?
	Is he just sitting there watching this?
	Are we like some planetary ant farm?
	I mean, is this amusing to watch all this?
	Because where is the Good Shepherd?
	I don't know.
	It's very frightening.
	And we don't know what this is.
	What's being aimed at us, but there's an awful lot going on and, uh, you know.
	I'm not, okay, I'm not sure how to answer that.
	And I, you know, it's kind of like asking, why does God allow little babies to die?
	You know, you get answers, you know, like, it's his plan.
	Or you have to have faith.
	And so those are some of the questions that I also have.
	And I think any intelligent person would ask.
	I really envy those people with so much faith that they have no questions.
	You want to even take a pass at that, Butch?
	Well, also being Catholic, I have a lot of questions also.
	But it's just like I was listening to a speaker one time and the question was put to him almost just like she just put it to us.
	And he said, well, He says, you have to be really naive to think that the Almighty, whoever he or she may be, only created us in this vast universe and millions of universes and billions of stars.
	And he says, I don't think we're all that special.
	He said, I just believe that he said that there's others out there.
	And eventually in time, we're going to meet them, good, bad, or indifferent.
	And that's just some thought.
	And I think that's exactly how they're going to be.
	Good, bad, or indifference.
	Yeah.
	That whole range.
	All right.
	Let's go to Los Angeles, California.
	Christian, you're on the air with Butch Bukowski and Art Bell.
	Hello, Art Bell.
	It's a pleasure to speak with you.
	You're such a legend.
	And I had a question for you and also for Nick, and that is, with Whatley Strieber, since you know you're very good friends with him, he seems to think that The interaction between humans and extraterrestrials is something where we can learn from each other, a better understanding, kind of an intellectual understanding.
	But recently, I saw the film The Fourth Kind, and it scared the bejesus out of me.
	In fact, when I came home that night, I couldn't sleep.
	I was terrified.
	Your phone is fading away.
	You need to get closer to the base.
	Oh, hello?
	Yes.
	I saw the film The Fourth Kind, and when I came home, it scared me to death.
	I couldn't sleep all night.
	And it seems now, it's like what you're saying about these mutilations, that there probably actually is truth to that film, that really, in a way, E.T.
	is not cute and cuddly and friendly and intellectual, but it sounds like that, in a way, we need to be very fearful.
	And I kind of find that very, very disturbing.
	And again, it was a pleasure to talk to you.
	I mean, Art Bell, you're such a legend.
	And I wish you well.
	And I just want to say thank you for this show, because The way the government has controlled the media now, you're probably one of the very few outlets where there's actually the freedom of speech is still alive and well.
	And we need to, you know, especially UFOs, I mean, this is a very important topic that the government is covering up since 1947.
	But I'd like to know kind of how you feel about what I said about, really, is this, the intellectuals, I mean, or the extraterrestrials, it's something to really be, I think, for humanity, do we really need to be fearful of this?
	And again, thank you for your time, and it was a pleasure talking to you guys, especially you, Art.
	All the best to you.
	Take care, and enough with the legend stuff, it sounds so post-mortem.
	So, Butch, again, you want to take a pass at that one?
	I don't think that we're going to learn any more than we've already learned.
	I just do not see There's coming forth that these guys are going to step off of whatever they're flying and they're going to cure cancer and Alzheimer's and crippling diseases and for the betterment of mankind.
	I have to see a lot more before I'm going to start to go in that angle.
	And yet earlier you suggested they were studying things like Alzheimer's and so forth.
	Yeah, I think they're studying a lot.
	I think it's not just I guess the problem I have with the studying is that they keep studying the same thing over and over and over.
	It would be different if all of a sudden we started learning that the brains were missing.
	That's another story.
	But these are the same things, the tongues, the jaws, the throats, the ears, the eyes, the sexual organs, the intestines.
	Anus.
	It's the same thing.
	It does not change.
	There is no change in any case.
	Right.
	Well, okay.
	There are some who speculate with regard to cattle mutilations and human ones that perhaps what they're doing is monitoring our environment through... Sure.
	Toxins in the air or that would take in the nuclear You know, are they getting ready to come to this planet and they want to check us out and check out, you know, what we're going to be like or is this going to be a place that they could survive or they could even visit without, you know, the war of the worlds type of, they get a flu virus and they all die.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Or are we in the process of changing this into a place that would not be habitable for them.
	Interesting.
	Alright, let's go to a wild card line.
	I think Oak Island, North Carolina.
	You're on the air.
	Hey, Mr. Bell.
	Thank you for taking my call.
	I've waited a long time to talk to one of you guys because I know you're not going to make fun of me.
	But I'm a firm believer that my family, my whole family has been abducted at one time or another.
	I personally have removed an implant from the left side of my nose.
	After I took it out of my nose, I really don't have any recollection of being abducted or anything done to me except for some strange bruises and some marks.
	But there's three places on the left side of my body that I believe have an implant in it now and they vibrate from time to time.
	And I don't know if anybody else has ever complained about these things vibrating, but mine do.
	And I think they put them in a tougher place for me to get to this time.
	And my girls, I've got three little children and they draw pictures and they're scary as hell.
	And I'm so afraid and so frightened and so nervous right now to talk to you.
	It's not even funny, but I wanted to talk to you guys about this.
	My wife, um, she, she, um, she complains frequently about being drawn toward the ceiling and being abducted.
	I think she's the first one that they started to take and, She describes these little things that come into our bedroom, not every time, but more frequently than others, the little things come into our room, and that's what takes her.
	She describes being taken toward the ceiling, and we've moved from one end of this country to the other.
	We spent a year in South Dakota.
	She's a Sioux Indian.
	And we lived on her reservation for a year.
	And those things are out there too.
	And they took us while we were out there.
	And they're not very nice.
	They're mean as hell to us.
	And they treat my little children like you wouldn't believe.
	And they leave triangular shaped marks on their bodies.
	And they look like little brown moles.
	And they don't always disappear.
	And they'll wake up with bruises in a triangular shape in different parts of their bodies.
	On their arms and their chest.
	Well sir, let me ask you a question.
	If you think that you've been abducted and have had implants inserted, have you had any imaging work done?
	No.
	I have, but not specifically for that.
	But I took something out of my nose and it was a little clear glass, looks like a little glass shard.
	It was the shape of a piece of Pencil lead.
	It just wasn't that big.
	It wasn't that large in diameter.
	And I took it.
	I took it for myself.
	And after that, there's three places on the left side of my body that it feels just like a telephone when it vibrates.
	And it scares me to death.
	And I never know when it's going to happen.
	I'm standing outside right now on my job.
	And my wife worked down here with me as well, but she couldn't stand it anymore.
	She swears that they're down here.
	They come to visit her.
	Now, what their particular interest is of her over the rest of us, I couldn't tell you.
	But when they started taking my children, I wanted to wait up on them.
	And if I could get a hold of one of my weapons, when those things show up, there'll be one for somebody to investigate.
	I can tell you that right now, because I'm not... I don't know who to talk to.
	I'm scared to death of missing it to people, because everybody will make fun of you, and I know you guys won't.
	Sir, where are you located at?
	I'm at Oak Island, North Carolina, on the East Coast.
	Okay.
	Another thing we've got down here.
	You need to get a hold of North Carolina MUFON, okay?
	Okay.
	If you go online or if you can't get it, you can email me.
	I'll get you the address and a person to talk to.
	They have great investigators down there.
	And as far as that vibration is concerned, do you have a magnet?
	Yes, sir.
	Take a magnet and run that magnet over that area.
	And let them know if that vibration stopped or started when you did that with the magnet.
	And as far as those marks on your children's bodies, you need to photograph those, preferably with a 35mm camera, or a good digital camera, and get good, clear shots, and get a hold of the people there at North Carolina MUFON, and they will take care of that, and they will help you.
	Okay.
	Alright.
	Okay, listen, thank you very, very much for the call.
	Absolutely honest to me and kind of scared.
	Let's go way up north.
	Alberta, Canada brings Gloria.
	You're on the air, Gloria.
	Oh, hi there, Art and Butch.
	I have a strange experience with knee pain.
	I woke up at dawn and I'm sitting wide awake on my bed and on my left is a long gray arm with a hand Dangling with very pointy, pointy nails.
	And I look the other way and think, oh no.
	And I look back and it brought his hand up.
	And the palm was quite pink, actually, and these long nails.
	Then it was down to business.
	It took my left pointer finger and a little saucer.
	And in this saucer were little black specks like coarse black pepper.
	And it went into my finger in an orderly manner.
	Then when that was finished, it said to me in my head, do not look at me.
	Then it was my right finger that went in the saucer and the same thing happened.
	And when that was finished, they were gone.
	It was gone.
	But I know it's been back because it leaves a trademark.
	I've had scratches on my left Palm and the top one is left the scar and it was bled on my covers.
	And the next time it's on my shoulder and the scars are there from the sharp pointy nail.
	And I wonder if there's anyone else that had an experience like that.
	And I was only 75 years old.
	I was not young.
	So this is more of a mystery to me.
	And the next day it was very scary for me.
	At the time I was not afraid.
	I've never heard anything like that.
	Nor have I. But this is the kind of thing you get when you open lines and you listen to people.
	You just get these stories that are just astounding.
	And frankly, you know, the lady sounded completely lucid, as did the gentleman before her.
	I think they're very lucid.
	But I mean, if you if you call 9-1-1 or something and you tell a story like this, you know, the people in the white coats are going to show up.
	Yeah, they'd hang up on you for sure.
	Well, I don't know that they'd hang up on you, but they, you know, you'd be in some danger of getting an examination, not by aliens, but people, you know, with degrees.
	I'm afraid you're right.
	Yeah.
	Judith in Ohio, hi, you're on the air with Butch and Art Bell.
	Hi, yes, I am calling you from Ohio.
	I'm being shy now.
	I listen quite often.
	I work second shifts, and I stay up half the night just so I can hear you guys.
	I've had a lot of things in my life, and my parents have had things, and I've had a strange life.
	But the one thing I wanted to talk to you about tonight, let's see, it's been many years now, because my son was just like 7, and now he's in his 30s, so it's almost 30 years ago.
	I found a foot.
	My son and his old friend were sled riding.
	My sister lives out in the country.
	I had gone over there to take them sled riding, and there was nobody home.
	The house was locked, and I was walking in a little grove of trees next to where the boys were, and in the snow was a foot, and the first thing I thought was like, oh, somebody's killed a deer, and the dogs have drugged the bones in.
	I picked it up, and then I got real scared for a second because I thought it was human, but I didn't have any medical training then, which I have now, but it wasn't a human foot, and even then I thought, well, this isn't made right.
	Stop for a moment and describe what you saw, please.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I sure will.
	It was okay.
	It was like it was fresh bone.
	It wasn't old.
	It was fresh like you go to the meat market and you get a bone for your dog.
	And it had a little bit of gristle on it.
	It didn't have any skin or any hair or anything.
	And it was there was like one joint where the heel is.
	The length of the whole thing was maybe 14 inches.
	12 to 14 inches long.
	There was the heel part.
	And then from the heel, there was like one bone that would come out clear up to a little joint.
	And then there was like, there were several of these, not like, like, not like two or three, but maybe like Four to six or seven of these.
	Listen, I've got to break this.
	I'm going to ask you to hold on through the break.
	Can you afford to do that?
	Oh, sure.
	All right.
	We're coming up to a break, so stay right where you are.
	Butch, stay where you are.
	From Manila in the Philippines, I'm Art Bell, and we'll be right back.
	Butch Witkowski is my guest.
	We're discussing something very Delicate.
	Very sensitive.
	Human abduction.
	Human mutilation.
	And everything that sort of goes along with it.
	And we've got a very interesting caller on the line who found what amounts to a foot of some sort.
	And we'll talk more about that in a moment.
	Doug in Richfield, Minnesota fast blasted me the following.
	Keep in mind that the aliens might be very peace loving.
	But know what that means.
	Peaceful to their own kind.
	Quakers are very peaceful.
	They're a very peaceful sort.
	But their livestock might disagree.
	We'll be right back.
	All right, back now with Butch Witkowski and our guest from Ohio, Judith, our caller.
	Judith, you're back on the air again.
	This foot, or whatever it is, can you be fairly certain it was not animal or human?
	No.
	Okay, first off, I didn't make it very clear.
	I was walking in the woods.
	I first thought it was a deer when I picked it.
	I did pick it up.
	It felt about the same weight as you would think bone would feel, and it had From the joint at the back, it had maybe four to six or seven, I didn't count because there was snow on them, from the heel to what would appear to be like a toe joint.
	They were just one thing, like your pencils or something.
	There wasn't a bunch of little joints like on the back of your hand.
	And then there was the one joint and then there was like two inches of what would be like a toe, but they didn't angle like human toes do.
	The whole thing was like a triangle.
	Okay, like a long skinny triangle.
	And it had snow packed around it.
	And from the heel type end, there was a bone, one bone coming up.
	And I'm holding this thing.
	First, I thought it was a good deer.
	I picked it up.
	I thought, Oh, my God, it's a human foot.
	And I figured somebody killed somebody and they're going to kill me and the kids.
	I was real scared for a second.
	And I'm looking at this thing.
	And I'm thinking, Wait a minute, because I thought feet were made like hands, you know, with all the bones.
	And there wasn't all those bones.
	And then there was no like big toe and little toes.
	Everything was the same.
	And from the heel part, it came up about two inches.
	It was just one bone.
	And I thought it was supposed to be two like there is in the wrist.
	You know, it's obviously more familiar with the hand.
	And it was one bone.
	And the weirdest part of this whole thing is, it was like solid bone.
	It didn't have an inside opening.
	And when you looked at it, if you look straight down on the two inch high part, there was, it was solid, the same creamy color.
	But inside, like a fourth of an inch, there was like an eighth of an inch of pink all the way around, like a little circle of pink.
	But the strangest thing of this is, if you turn the thing, so you were looking at, looking at it on the same plane, it was like, it wasn't broke off or something.
	It was cut off.
	It was cut like, like fresh board where you go, er, er, er, er, er, er.
	And at the very end, there's a little tick, you know, on the board where it doesn't quite clear.
	This had that little tick thing.
	I don't know where it came from.
	I know it wasn't an animal.
	I've looked at all kinds of pictures of deer paws and, you know, bear paws and everything.
	I took it.
	I was going to wrap it in a towel because my brother-in-law worked for a vet and he always wanted to be a vet and head to the Second World War.
	And he grew up on a farm.
	I thought, well, maybe Jim will know.
	And if he doesn't, you know, I was still married to a professor and if he didn't know, because I thought he knew everything, we would take it up to Case Western or somewhere.
	It wasn't a matter of carbon dating because it was fresh bone.
	And I wrapped it in a towel that I had in the car, and I was going to put it in the car, and my son... And he held it, too.
	We both held it.
	It wasn't just something we looked at.
	Right.
	And he was freaking out, and he never really freaked out about things.
	And Bradley says, Oh, Mom, don't put that in the car.
	I don't want that in the car with us.
	So I stuck it in the crock of the tree along the corner of my sister's house, as high as I could reach.
	And this is way out in the country.
	And I took Denny home, and I came right back, and my brother-in-law and sister and everybody was there.
	Now, the summer before, there was lights in the woods.
	I don't know if they're connected or not with this, without going into that.
	But there was some weird light in the woods.
	Okay, for the sake of time here, what became of it?
	What happened?
	Well, it was gone.
	That's what I'm trying to say.
	We're in the house, and my sister's saying, well, have some coffee.
	I had a quick cup of coffee.
	I said, I gotta go out and get this thing before it gets dark.
	Because it was in the winter.
	It was starting to get dark.
	And I told her that I had this thing in the tree, and they all kind of laughed at me.
	And they didn't remember the light they saw in the summer.
	I guess I'm getting into something I didn't mean to.
	My parents had followed a light like 16 or 20 years before that.
	They followed a light one night for miles.
	But this thing was gone.
	That memory was gone from that same day.
	I went to my mom because I was upset about this whole thing.
	And my mom and my stepdad had never ever wavered in this memory of following this light.
	And the memory was gone till the day they died.
	That's kind of scary.
	Okay, listen, thank you.
	We're going to have to go, but thank you very, very much for the call.
	What a shame.
	I can understand the son didn't want it in the car, but what a shame something like that was not preserved and identified.
	Butch, have you heard of cases like that where a body part that's apparently not human or animal has been found?
	No, not at all.
	No, not in any of the research I've done have we come across anything like that.
	Never know what you're going to get on these lines.
	All right.
	To Davis, Oklahoma.
	Farlane, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Thanks for taking my call.
	During the early year, 94, I think it was around March, I was on a trip from Oklahoma to Illinois.
	And I had enough time to report to work that morning.
	And on the way there, I don't know exactly what happened.
	I just realized that I woke up.
	Well, I was driving, and I was looking at my dash lights, and I was confused.
	I couldn't figure out what I was looking at.
	And then it occurs to me, holy crap, I'm driving a car.
	And I grabbed the steering wheel, put my foot on the gas pedal, and I looked in my rearview mirror.
	There's no one around on the interstate.
	This is somewhere in Missouri.
	And I'm driving and driving and driving.
	I realized I am not going to make it.
	And on time, I had to find a pay phone to call my boss, because I didn't have a cell phone back then in 94.
	And he just told me to take the day off.
	I arrived to my destination three and a half hours later than I should have.
	And it was just one of those things, I just had to shrug my shoulders, try to figure out what in the world happened.
	I had no idea.
	So in other words, you had a big hunk of missing time.
	Three and a half hours of missing time.
	But I didn't, I wasn't familiar with the term missing time, you know, back then.
	Ten years later, two of my children, along with two of the neighbor's children, saw a disk hovering near my house.
	And they all saw it.
	And I called MUFON.
	I got Sam Maranto, the State Section Director for Illinois, MUFON, came and investigated that.
	And that's when I started finding out about all the different terminology and the missing time.
	And I would love to try to go underneath some regression Hypnotism or something to figure out what happened to me.
	There's a group in California called Opus.
	O-P-U-S.
	And if you give them a call, you can get their number right off the internet.
	They have a direct line.
	Give them a call and they'll set you up or get you to the right person to do a regression.
	That'd be great.
	Thank you.
	You're welcome.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	Opus, huh?
	Yeah.
	So there really are people who can help you out if you've had this sort of thing occur?
	Yeah, there's people on the West Coast and then of course you have Dr. Jacobs here on the East Coast.
	Dr. Jacobs, Dr. David Jacobs and Opus, they do a fine job and we've related a couple cases to them over the years.
	Okay, to Jason in Palm Springs.
	Hi Jason, you're on the air.
	Oh, hi.
	I haven't talked to you since I called up one time and told you I could hear you getting sicker as the night went on.
	You needed to take a day off and play some of the ones that you had already done, and the rest is history.
	So, how have you been over the years?
	I'm fine.
	Now, at that time, I was looking into an earthquake thing that I'm doing, and consequently, I was out at night all the time.
	Now, let me give you some back data on this.
	And that is that I am more than a hermaphrodite.
	I am double sexed.
	I was born double.
	And I needn't tell you that this has led to hundreds of abductions.
	I don't need to go into because I'm sure everyone has a vivid imagination.
	So you're actually double-sexed?
	In other words, everything or both?
	I have two ovaries, two testes, and all the accruements thereof.
	Got it.
	And for that reason you think they're particularly interested in you and you say you've been abducted again and again?
	Oh my, yes.
	Yeah, all the time.
	And what happens sometimes is that they forget to tell the little guys that picked you up to Erase my memory, because they get excited when they get a new person in out at the base.
	They show me off and they get excited because they've never seen anything like this before and they forget to tell them to cut it off.
	As a result, I have a lot of memory of the abductions and what they're doing.
	This may sound crazy, but I can show you where the underground bases are.
	There are fallen angels, and they co-exist with the military.
	They're allowed to because they're giving them data that makes them big, strong armies.
	And the whole thing is known to the government.
	Okay, well, you set us off in a good direction.
	I'm going to leave it at that.
	Butch, it is interesting.
	He said fallen angels.
	Well, there are theories from fallen angels, to aliens, to time travelers, that's a big one, and interdimensional beings.
	So, I guess you pretty much think it's aliens that are doing this, or is it a combination of all of the above?
	No, pretty much aliens.
	Pretty much aliens.
	Yep.
	Okay.
	I've read a lot of stuff and looked at a lot of reports on Nephilim and the fallen angels and although some of the theories seem like they're tailor-made to give you an answer, they just take you off in a totally different direction.
	Next thing you know, it's just a religious thing.
	Well, I think people tend to ascribe whatever their belief system tells them they think it would be to that, but you're sticking with aliens.
	Okay, Drew in Tulsa, Oklahoma, you're on the air with Butch Wieckowski and Art Bell.
	How you doing, Art?
	Okay.
	I've been a fan for like 10 years.
	I think I've got something to say tonight.
	Sometimes, you know, it might be aliens, but sometimes it may be, you know, the Illuminati and they could hypnotize to make you believe it was an alien.
	I'm saying if you own a copy of the Bible, you allow the Illuminati's curse to abduct or whatever, I'll explain.
	Okay, now John Todd, a former ex-Illuminati, states, all original big money music recordings get cursed on an altar on a full moon, and they channel like Satan and his army all to follow every single copy.
	And John Todd also stated that the Vatican's altar was designed from a previously built satanic altar.
	A lot of Illuminati have reported that they have went to the Vatican to get promoted, initiated, and stuff like that.
	So I'm saying that, I'm guessing the Vatican's so-called original documents are cursed to allow Satan's army to follow every single copy of the Bible.
	If you own a copy, you give permission to the Illuminati to do whatever.
	Okay, well, I appreciate the call, and here we go off in the religious direction.
	And that's exactly what happens with a lot of that.
	The Fallen Angels.
	It almost seems like people are looking to not so much find an answer, but to blame or back up their belief system.
	It's human nature.
	Yeah, and it's just human nature.
	I mean, they go one way or the other.
	They either blame the churches and denominations for something they've done in the past.
	And God knows, you know, that Catholics, we've killed more people than Cecil B. DeMille in the name of religion.
	And the same thing with aliens.
	It's just the belief system.
	I always try to tell people, try to read as much as you can.
	There's enough good information out there to set your mind in a proportion where you can at least tell the difference between an alien and a fallen angel or a Nephilim or giants or whatever they're going to bring up next week.
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay, you can't really rule any of it out.
	No, no, no you can't, but until there's better evidence, I'm gonna stick with the alien guys.
	Good enough.
	Pasadena, California brings Roger.
	You're on the air, Roger.
	Welcome.
	Hey, York.
	Thanks.
	I appreciate it.
	How you doing, buddy?
	Wow, there's a lot of stuff going on.
	I'm listening to A lot of the things that are being said about the operating and the animal, dissecting the animals up and the humans, but it sounds like a lot of, you know, just scientific experimentation.
	The way we would look at an animal or a person that we'd never seen before, we'd naturally want to dissect it, take it apart, reverse engineer it, see how it works.
	That's right.
	A piece of advanced technology that just landed in a field.
	We take it apart, reverse engineer it, see how we could benefit from it either socially or medically.
	And from what I've read about reports of people being abducted that have been brought back, they tend to be repeat abductees and they come from a family of or generations of people that have had similar experiences.
	Almost like they're trying to trace the DNA or the line of the DNA, how it's evolving and what's affecting it and how.
	And also a lot of these things are described as having no reproductive organs.
	So the only way that they can propagate or continue their line is through cloning, also from what I've read.
	So maybe they're trying to find a way to Get our organs to work in their bodies or in their cloning processes.
	That's as good a theory as any.
	Yeah.
	What do you think?
	Well, yeah, and it's a good theory because, you know, cow blood can be substituted for human blood for a very short period of time.
	And all these cattle, no blood.
	So are they trying to You know, upgrade their immune system or prepare themselves for our toxic systems that we have here.
	Who knows?
	But I think he's got a good point there.
	Angie in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
	Good morning, Angie.
	You're on the air.
	Hi, Art.
	Hi, Butch.
	I had a theory.
	I wanted to know what you thought.
	John Teeter, the time traveler, said that in the future mad cow disease Would be rampant and cause Alzheimer's and CJD in humans and maybe perhaps mutilations are from future or aliens in the future.
	I don't know.
	They might be cloned, too.
	But they're getting genetic material from humans and cows from here, from now, right before the disease goes really rampant and then they're trying to either cure or clone people in the future or something, trying to figure it out.
	What do you think of that?
	Well, there it is, Butch, the time traveler theory.
	And I happen to be one of those that believe in that time traveler and interdimensional theory, because some of the sightings that have been photographed and videotaped with infrared, especially, you know, they come from nowhere and they go to nowhere.
	I mean, they come out of nowhere and they disappear just as quick as they come.
	So she's got a possibility there.
	I just think that there is a use, whatever the use is, there is a use for the organs they're taking.
	And they keep taking the same organs.
	And, you know, we've only really started looking at this, the ufology as a whole has only started looking at these mutilations since the 50s.
	So we know they've been here thousands of years.
	So is this something that they just can't do and they keep trying?
	Or is it something they just keep trying to experiment in?
	Or are they constructing hybrids out of the organs that they're taking?
	Judy in Ontario, up in Canada.
	Hi, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Didn't they do this type of stuff in concentration camps?
	And weren't we warned that they would use the alien card?
	And I'll believe in aliens when they show us everything that's in all those underground bases.
	Well, I'm with you on that.
	And yes, they did do this kind of thing in concentration camps.
	And yes, they did it again, and again, and again, and again.
	To hundreds of thousands.
	So people ask, why do they keep repeating?
	Why the need to continually abduct and dissect?
	Yeah, that's a great question.
	I mean, you know, just like you said about the frogs.
	Okay, so we can use that theory.
	I would think if they were going to be studying, they would be taking, you know, take an arm or a leg or a finger or a toe or something like that.
	But it's the same organs over and over again.
	And these organs, when you break them down into, you know, they're high in protein.
	They are in glucose.
	I mean, you know, there's just a lot of use for these types of organs.
	Hi, we're going to leave it at that.
	High in protein.
	Think about that.
	High in protein.
	From Manila, in the Philippines, other side of the world, I'm Mark Bell.
	It's a rough topic.
	I know it.
	Human abduction, human mutilation.
	That's what we're talking about this day, and it is rough stuff.
	So a warning, if you haven't heated it by now, you probably won't, but this really is not the stuff for small children, or for that matter, adults who are affected by this sort of thing.
	More with Butch Witkowski in a moment.
	All right, Butch, I need to ask you, have you written a book or chronicled any of what you've investigated?
	Perhaps a website?
	We have it on the website.
	What we try to do is we have a newsletter every month and we try to put stuff in there regarding what we're doing and what we're investigating and into a newsletter type format so everybody's welcome to look at it and if they have any questions we have a contact us page.
	They can send us an email and we'll have somebody get back to them within 24 hours.
	Our average right now is about 50 to 65 minutes.
	So we do real well.
	Well your average is going to get spoiled tonight.
	Can you give us an address or something?
	Yep, they can get me direct by my email, which is butch221 at D-J-A-Z-Z-D dot com, or my assistant director, which is John Bainbridge, and his is ccijohn2 at comcast.com.
	I believe it's .com, yes.
	And our website is www.paufosearch.com.
	And we can have somebody get back to him right away.
	Like I said, we usually Answer pretty quick.
	I'm sorry, that Comcast is .net, not .com.
	Yeah, I thought it was .net.
	Okay, well, judging from the way the phone lines are boiling tonight, you're going to get a lot of response.
	I've got over 100 emails so far.
	I'm sure you do.
	So again, give your website again.
	www.paufosearch.com.
	Okay, let's go to Denver, Colorado, and Jeremy, you're on the air.
	Hey Art, how are you doing?
	Fairly well, thank you.
	Okay, thank you for taking my call.
	I was calling to give a little heads up to the guy that called about the buzzing in his back, and I've detected the same kind of thing.
	It's in my left rib, and I'm just kind of giving him a point of, I don't think he's got to the bad part yet.
	So the triangle on his back is pretty much like a cupping technique, if anybody knows what that is.
	It's a therapeutic technique to like Take fluids out of your back from if they're being put under when this is happening, and they're probably injecting him with something and then taking the fluid back out of his back.
	But the way I detected it was with a nonlinear junk junction evaluator, and you can only detect the antenna and the antennas in your spine.
	And you'll get a second harmonic down your spine, and then you'll get a third harmonic in the in your lower spine.
	Um, no one probably knows what that is, but you have to talk to a TSCM agent, which is a Shoreford Technical Surveillance Countermeasures.
	And the machine wasn't invented, the one that can be used, because the original version wasn't strong enough.
	And they put out a military version, which is not available to purchase.
	Would a gauze meter do the same?
	I'm not sure.
	I just kind of went out because I knew the hospital thing was just a waste of time.
	So I went out and tried to find something that would detect a non-radiating device.
	And just by chance, I tracked down this and the guy that was showing me the civilian model, he had the military model.
	And then we just scan my back, and you'll find the device is actually not going to be detectable, because it must be shielded by stainless steel, because that's what radio frequencies will just reflect off the stainless steel.
	But because it's a mechanical device, you have to have the antenna activated, right?
	Right.
	So it'll be, so it's in your spine, and I'm sorry I'm just kind of out of breath.
	So that's the vibration that he felt.
	Well they turn it on but the problem is that it's actually it's an infusion pump and it can inject him with it and then it'll be attached to his spine and if they do inject him with it he has to use if he can't get a cupping he can just use a vacuum cleaner and it'll just put the hose right on your back and it'll just suck it right up to the skin and Because if they inject him, it's going to be like they, it feels like they poured like radioactive waste in their spine.
	Okay, that sounds pleasant.
	Butch, you also suggested a magnet.
	Yeah, a magnet or a gauze meter.
	A magnet will pull it to the surface also.
	Because the ones that we've seen through Dr. Lear's stuff, they've all been really sub, very Just under the top layers of skin.
	I mean, so they're almost at the point where they're visible in some cases, depending on the person's complexion.
	But a couple, one, and any x-ray will pick it up.
	Any x-ray will pick it up.
	A magnet, placing a magnet over it and you can move it around.
	So if, you know, it's at your ankle and you can move it up two inches with a magnet.
	That is so weird.
	Yeah, very weird.
	Joe, in Berkeley, California, you're on the air.
	All right.
	All right.
	A pleasure to talk to you.
	Long-time listener, first-time caller.
	I know I'm going to sound like a nut, so I apologize.
	But back in 1963 in Birkin County, New Jersey, on a rural road, I was parked with my girlfriend, who had a couple of traits, one of which was she was a transmedium, which I was a little lukewarm on myself.
	We were smoking a cigarette and as we looked out the trees, there was sort of a glow behind the trees, but it was sort of a funny glow in that if you look directly at it, you really couldn't see it.
	But if you looked away from it, you could.
	Anyway, she says to me, they want you to get out of the car.
	And I'm like, yeah, okay.
	So anyway, I finally I get out of the car and I'm looking around in the sky.
	And as I'm looking, I brush against something about mid-phi, and at the exact same time that I brushed against something, I heard something go through my head, and it said, compressed gas two valves.
	And of course, this means absolutely nothing to me.
	I looked down, and there wasn't anything there.
	I thought perhaps there might be a bush that I brushed into, but there was nothing there.
	I got back in the car and then we drove for probably maybe two or three miles and all of a sudden the hair in the back of my head stood up and I got very, very frightened.
	I pulled over and I stopped because in my pocket in that exact location I had a gas cigarette lighter, which in fact would be compressed gas, two valves.
	It's not exactly the way I would describe a cigarette lighter, but anyway.
	I wasn't abducted, I didn't see any loss of time, but I did have something happen there which I thought was quite unusual.
	No, very unusual, very interesting, and that would be the way somebody technically would describe a lighter.
	Sure.
	That's fascinating.
	First time I've heard that one.
	First time I've heard it too.
	Yeah, that's something there.
	Okay, Kelly, St.
	Paul, Minnesota I guess?
	Mr. Bell, good afternoon or good morning, wherever you may be.
	It's great to hear you again.
	Thank you.
	I just had a question for Mr. Witkowski.
	Thank you for your work.
	I'm former military.
	For the past 13 years, I've worked law enforcement security.
	I would just I know you just gave your contact information and thank you for doing so.
	But for our brothers in blue, Or Desert Khaki, for that matter, that have experienced things that we would like to report.
	And not just for us, but for your listeners, Art, that may be on the fence about what they believe regarding this phenomenon.
	But where can they go to read some of these accounts from what they may consider to be I wouldn't think there would be a lot of official information about this at all.
	law enforcement officer, I'll tell you this, if they get their email to me and tell me
	what they're looking for, I'll put them on the right path or I'll get the right information
	to them and that's a fact.
	I wouldn't think there would be a lot of official information about this at all.
	In fact, I would doubt there's any.
	There's a couple things, but they're so outdated and then you start talking about Majestic
	12, which is another...
	Yeah, let me put it this way, at least anything that we'd be able to read.
	Yeah, anything that I could put in somebody's hands to help them find what they're looking for, or find what they're looking for.
	We have our own database, and I have access to a couple other databases, and I've got scads of information, even if it comes to just I have to photocopy something out of a book and email it to him or, you know, I'll do whatever I can do for him.
	Okay.
	Allen in Memphis, Tennessee.
	You're on the air.
	How are y'all doing tonight?
	Good.
	Just fine, thank you.
	Comment, question, I'm not sure, but when I was younger and even still today, I suffer from sleep paralysis where I'll be in that zone where I'm not quite awake and not asleep but I can open my eyes and see around me and but I can't move and it feels like there's there's something in the room with me.
	Sometimes I can even see shadows or something out of the corner of my eye.
	I don't have any memories or anything like that of of being abducted or anything like that, but I was just wondering if y'all had any comments or thoughts about that?
	Well, my thought would be sleep paralysis is very, very common.
	Whether or not anything has happened to you during this time, I guess, what do you suggest for that, Butch?
	Hypnotic regression or what?
	Well, one of the easiest things, especially if it's a male, if you sleep in boxer shorts, And you get up in the morning and your boxer shorts are on backwards, there's a pretty good chance that you were abducted.
	Or had some unusual... That comes from Dr. Jacob.
	He said, you know, he said he found that in so many cases where, you know, fellows went to bed and they're wearing boxer shorts and they wake up and their boxer shorts are on backwards.
	That's a big clue, all right.
	Or another one is with sleep paralysis, not so much says paralysis, but Does the person have the feeling that they're being held down?
	Are they trying to fight to get up, and it's like he's pushing them back down.
	And that's another good sign they've been abducted.
	Reno, Nevada.
	Betty, you're on the air.
	Hi, Art.
	I'm glad you picked my call.
	And hello, Butch.
	How you doing?
	Hi.
	I want to ask you something.
	When I was about five years old, and I'm 65 now, and it was before my mother passed away, and I was at five when that happened, and I had I had an experience that all these years I can remember it as if it just happened yesterday.
	I was, I'm sure that I must have been taken because I remember running through like a round circle.
	And you know how on ships how they have the uplift of the step you have to step over?
	And I was a little child.
	And I was running and I was jumping over these steps, trying to run away from these little people that was chasing me.
	And to get away from them, I just jumped back because there was like a recess part of it.
	And I was hiding and they ran by me.
	And these were, like I said, they were little in stature.
	And I was just wondering, since I was so young, and that has been so vivid in my mind all these years, Could I have had an experience then?
	Because there was other things afterwards that I have experienced where I got these huge lumps on the back of my neck there at the base of the skull.
	And I've asked doctors about it and they say, oh, it's just a muscle and stuff like that from tension and all.
	But sometimes they get and they hurt me so bad.
	So, so bad.
	And you know, it's just and now I'm having to go to A doctor for my kidneys, because the doctor is saying that my kidneys are putting out too much protein.
	And there, before the break, I think I heard you say something about the protein.
	And I was just wondering, what do you think, Butch?
	Do you think I ought to?
	Because it was not like an imagination.
	Well, I think that Butch and a doctor are likely to give you very different advice on the subject, let me put it that way.
	Butch, I would imagine that a lot of this sort of thing is exactly what it sounds like, some sort of physical ailment, not due to aliens, not due to abduction or mutilation or any sort of manipulation, but just physical problems.
	And how does one, in your position, separate the two?
	Well, there are a few things, like the boxer shorts.
	I mean, when I first heard that, you know, I just went, oh my God, where are we going with this?
	When I thought about it, you know, and also people, let's say, they never had sleep paralysis or they never had any problem sleeping, but every now and then they have to, it's like they're trying, they have to fight to get out of bed.
	There's like something holding them down.
	They can't, they actually flail where they hurt themselves.
	Or after that's over, they find a mark on their body that wasn't there when they went to bed.
	And that's a good indication that that person has been abducted or the abduction proceeded but didn't get as far as it was supposed to.
	And then you have the person that has sleep paralysis, you know, and they tell you they need a thing to breathe at night because, you know, they stop breathing.
	And then there's a physical ailment.
	But everything, it just seems like everything that happens at night is an abduction.
	And people have been abducted in broad daylight.
	I mean, there's a, there's a case of a guy in, um, I believe it was Kentucky.
	I think it was, uh, Tennessee where he was talking to his wife in another room and she stopped talking and he kept talking and he finally walked in and she was gone.
	And an hour later she showed up out at their barn, just standing there.
	And he said, where were you?
	You know, and she says, well, I was out here.
	And he said, no, you weren't.
	We're in there.
	And she went under aggression and she's been abducted since she was the age of five and she was now 45.
	Wow.
	Terry and Topeka, Kansas, you're on the air.
	Not a lot of time.
	Hello.
	Hi Art, and this is Terry and Topeka, and I just wanted to share an abduction experience with you that I had.
	Go ahead.
	Okay.
	Well, anyway, the first time that I ever woke up and not in my bed is when this happened.
	After I woke up, they put me back out again.
	And anyway, I found myself being floated down this hallway that was brightly lit and it was white.
	There were no doors, nothing to distinguish a hallway or doors or anything.
	And I couldn't tell where the light came from.
	But anyway, when I tried to turn around and see these two little guys that were floating
	down the hallway, couldn't see them, and they waved their hand over this part of the wall
	and it opens up and they take me into this room and it's an auditorium.
	And they set me in this balcony by myself and down below me are just hundreds of people
	in this audience and it just looks like a normal audience.
	But I could sense that they weren't really human even though they kind of looked human.
	Anyway, so I'm sitting there and these two guys wouldn't let me turn around and they
	told me telepathically to try not to leave again because they would be standing right
	outside the door and they would catch me if I did.
	Anyway, so I'm sitting there, and all of a sudden, this girl, this woman, walks out on the stage, and everybody in the audience kind of quieted down.
	And it was a round room, and anyway, she started singing this scale, and she was just horrible.
	And anyway, the audience started laughing at her, And it reminded me of, you know, just a story out of, you know, like, oh, some 50s greaser type, West Side Story type thing, you know?
	And, um, anyway, everybody in the audience started laughing at her.
	And then they started throwing, I mean, cheesy... I'm so sorry to do this, but, um, she got cut off anyway.
	I'm so sorry to do this, but we're literally out of time.
	Butch, it has been...
	An honor to have you on the program.
	It's a very, very difficult subject, and I'm honored to have had the opportunity to talk about it with you.
	The honor's all mine.
	It's a pleasure to be there.
	Okay.
	We will do this again, Butch.
	I guarantee we'll do it again.
	It's a whale of a subject.
	Yes, it is.
	Take care, and good night, my friend.
	Good night, and take care.
	Alright folks, from the other side of the world, that's it for this day.
	I'm Art Bell, in for George Norrie, who will be back next week.
	Tomorrow night, Ian Punnett from Manila, Philippines.

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