Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

June 6, 2009 - Art Bell

02:38:36

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Anti-Gravity and Other Hi-Tech - Bob Koontz

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	President Obama honored the valiant dead and the sheer improbability, and it was, of their D-Day victory, commemorating Saturday's 65th anniversary of the decisive invasion, even as he remakes two wars right now, tries to thwart potential nuclear threats from Iran and North Korea.
	It's quite a job for a new president, eh?
	There have been two bodies found and a ticket.
	It's a plane that crashed.
	Searchers found two passengers' bodies in a briefcase containing an Air France Flight 447 ticket in the Atlantic Ocean near where the jetliners believed to have gone down.
	Real tragedy.
	It seems that Al-Qaeda now has a new franchise in Algeria.
	Deep in the Sahara Desert, along the remote southern borders of Algeria, lies a very immense no-man's land where militants roam.
	Almost sounds poetic, doesn't it?
	Terrorists.
	It's here that terrorists linked with Al-Qaeda, trafficking everything from weapons to drugs to illegal migrants.
	They've planted at least a half dozen cells in Europe.
	So they're spreading out, spreading their wings.
	And they'll soon see wings flying over them, I think.
	And then this from St.
	Charles, Missouri.
	There's no end to the cruelty of the world.
	Brian Jackson.
	Has been left out of birthday party invitations, asked not to use water fountains.
	His daily routine at one point included 23 pills, 3 IV medications, 2 injections every day.
	But the toughest part of this little fellow growing up with AIDS, for him, may be knowing how he got it.
	When he was a baby, his dad apparently entered the hospital room and injected A syringe of HIV-tainted blood into his tiny body.
	My God, is there any end to the cruelty of this world?
	Apparently not.
	We're going to take a break and then I'm going to tell you a story, a horror, an immigration horror story.
	I know you've heard on talk shows around the country, just tons and tons and tons of talk shows about immigration.
	It's just really a hot-button issue.
	I haven't done it lately, and I thought that I would add my little bit to it with a twist, and boy, it's a twist all right.
	We will be right back.
	All right, when I did my last program, it was kind of interesting.
	Somebody called up and said, well, how long are you going to be in the Philippines?
	And I said, I don't know.
	I'll talk to you about it on the next show.
	And the next show got wiped out for technical reasons, and I never got to answer the question.
	So this is, in effect, the next show.
	And I want to talk to you about it, about when I might or might not be back to the United States.
	Might not be back to the United States, actually, at all.
	Here's what's happened.
	I'll try and give you as quick a version of it as I can.
	First, though, it's worth noting that in the United States, as you know, immigration is really, really, really a hot-button issue, and for good reason.
	I mean, we have people pouring across the border, from Mexico particularly, but nearly any border they can make it across.
	They just pour across the border.
	Everybody knows the story.
	They get across and then they apply for various benefits and whatever they can get when they manage to get across the border.
	And we all, most of us anyway, decry that practice and nobody wants the country flooded with illegal aliens and they're, I guess, working on that sort of, kind of, maybe.
	But, hey baby, try it legally!
	Try it legally, and good luck!
	Here's the story, and I might as well sort of read as I go.
	This is available to be read on the coasttocoastam.com website, and I surely hope you will read it.
	I sent the following to one of my congressmen and one of my senators, and I'll get to that.
	My name is Arthur W. Bell.
	My wife is Erin R. Bell.
	We've been married now, in fact now, over three years, and I've got a two-year-old daughter who was born in Las Vegas, Nevada, so of course she's an American citizen.
	My wife is Filipino.
	She's Filipino, actually.
	I said Philippine, but she's Filipino.
	In December of 2006, That was here in the Philippines.
	My wife was one of those who wasn't really wild about coming to the United States.
	She didn't really want to come, but I wanted her to see the U.S.
	I wanted her to see my home.
	Of course, it's kind of a natural thing when you get married, right?
	So, we applied for, and it took months and months and months, we applied for a visa here at the U.S.
	Embassy in Manila, and they're wonderful people here at the Embassy, by the way, just wonderful people.
	It took months and months, but we got a visa.
	We got what's called a CR1 visa.
	It's going to sound kind of technical.
	CR means Conditional Residency 1.
	And with that, you enter the United States, and we flew, in fact we did, we flew, and arrived in Las Vegas, Nevada, December 26th, 2006.
	Now many of you may remember, because you got to hear me say from the high desert, the great America Southwest again, shortly after that.
	So when she arrived, they stamped her visa, said welcome to the United States.
	It was all very pleasant, very nice people.
	And I think about a month later, she got her contemporary green card.
	They issue a two-year green card is what they do.
	And all was well, and we spent two years in the United States.
	Well, we have done Everything right.
	And by that I mean we have followed this two-year procedure to right to the hair.
	We've done everything the way you're supposed to do it.
	In October of 2008, now that was three months prior to the expiration of her temporary visa, we did exactly what we were supposed to do on October 10th.
	We sent The USCIS, that's the United States Citizen Immigration Service, we sent them a I-751, and it is the final step in over a two-year process, you know, to get your wife immigrated.
	We sent them evidence of our marriage.
	And that's what it was all about.
	It's just the final step where they want to know that you are legitimately married.
	You didn't marry somebody and sneak them into the country, you know, for payment or some crazy thing like that.
	So anyway, we supplied plenty of evidence.
	And we sent it along with her 500 and at that time 545 dollar fee.
	My wife then went to Las Vegas when she was notified DoSo did what's called a biometric
	They do those these days.
	In fact, they're getting more and more serious all the time.
	They're probably going to be looking at your eyeballs and inside your brain pretty soon.
	But she went and did her biometric.
	We were assigned a case number, which we have here.
	It's on the website.
	And then we sat back and waited because that's what they told us to do.
	In fact, if you take that number, And you go to the USCIS website, as of yesterday, and I don't care, I'll read it here, WAC0900851515, it says that it's being processed and they will let us know.
	So they received it, they received the evidence, they were happy, they put up a notice saying it was being processed and they'd let us know.
	In early January, now, not very long ago, 2009, We received a notice from the California Service Center, that's the USCIS Center in California, to please send more evidence of our marriage.
	And that shocked me a little, but you know, there's an age difference, big age difference between the two of us, and I thought, well, maybe that triggered it.
	Or perhaps, well, who knows, right?
	But they wanted more evidence.
	So, within actually a week, I think even less than a week, three or four days, I gathered together what had to be about two inches of evidence, I'll tell you about some of it in a little while, and I sent it in to Immigration.
	I sent it in to USCIS.
	In fact, it was received, our big packet was received by USCIS of additional evidence on January 15, 2009.
	January 15th, 2009.
	Now I was careful enough to make sure that I got returned, you know, it was registered,
	it was returned, receipt requested, and I even got the receipt from when I sent it in
	the post office.
	And then of course I got the card back from USCIS saying, you know, stamped right there.
	I better not hit this table too hard.
	Received, USCIS, January 15th.
	Bye.
	So I thought, okay, fine, everything's fine.
	And we just sat back and waited.
	Then in early March, just before we were going to leave the country, for reasons I'll articulate in a moment, we received a notice that, oh my god, USCIS had not received our additional evidence.
	They never received a thing!
	And moreover, there was no appeal and the case was closed!
	I went, what?
	What do you mean the case is closed and no appeal?
	They hadn't sent me any letters saying, hey, hey, by the way, we didn't get your evidence or anything like that.
	When, in fact, they had received our evidence.
	They had received our evidence and I've got the proof and I put it up there on the website.
	So, of course, I called the USCIS in a panic.
	And they said, well, all right, send the evidence that they, USCIS, actually received our package in a timely fashion.
	And I thought, okay.
	And so I did that.
	They returned a letter.
	This was now, by now I'm out of the country, right?
	They returned a letter saying, sorry, they had sent us the wrong form response and that we should send in $575.
	That was all I asked for, $575.
	At this point, I'm getting tired, you know?
	We've just done so much, and so they want $500.
	I said, fine.
	Send them the damn $575.
	If that's really what they think they want, send it to them.
	even though we'd already sent and they had cashed our check for $545.
	If they want $575, send it.
	So we did exactly that.
	I mean, that's all they requested, $555.
	I said, well, okay, I don't understand why, but fine, I've got the money.
	It's better to just send it and do it than ask them why they want more money.
	I was tired of fighting at this point, so I sent it.
	We did.
	Then comes mail back again that says, that's incomplete.
	Well, it was a complete check, you know, a postal money order, actually, or whatever.
	And so, it was complete to that degree.
	That's all they had asked for.
	But nevertheless, they said it was incomplete.
	And in both sets of the evidence that we sent, see, at this point, you're trying to prove that it's a real marriage.
	That's all you're trying to prove.
	This is the final step in a, you know, a two-year-plus journey.
	We sent evidence of our marriage.
	We sent our marriage license.
	We sent our daughter's birth certificate.
	She was born in Las Vegas.
	We sent our joint bank accounts.
	That's right, they're in both names.
	I sent health insurance in my wife's name.
	A joint car registration.
	My last will and testament.
	With my daughter and my wife receiving everything.
	We sent social security paperwork for all of us.
	Pictures of trips we've taken.
	Two homes that I own in Nevada paid in full for years and years now.
	Two signed, notarized statements by friends attesting that our marriage was indeed in good faith and so forth.
	Many, many, many additional documents I'm not even mentioning here proving that, well, the marriage was real and it was entered to in good faith.
	It was still healthy as can be and as was our daughter.
	Anyway, we had to return to the Philippines because of some pretty serious family concerns here and property that we have here as well and a lot of things.
	We have a condo here.
	Prior to leaving, I wanted to be really extra careful because we were in this process and so I called the National USCIS number and I asked them, is there any problem with traveling?
	You know, we have an urgent situation.
	Can we travel during this process?
	No, no problem.
	Mr. Bell, no problem.
	Just go to the USCIS in Las Vegas, get what's called an InfoPass appointment, get your wife's passport stamped, and there is no problem with traveling, Mr. Bell.
	Well, hmm.
	Uh, there apparently is now.
	There wasn't then.
	But, uh, even after going to get her passport stamped and so forth and so on, um, boy is there a problem.
	So, uh, the U.S.C.I., what I did when I got here, I finally, finally, there's a number of people who have been trying to help out.
	I mean, when they send you something and they say, look, case closed, no appeal, that's it, what do you do?
	Well, in my case, I contacted Congressman Dean Hiller.
	He's one of my congressmen.
	Senator Harry Reid, who's one of my senators.
	Harry Reid is going to take a look into it.
	I just signed a privacy thing so we can look into it.
	By the way, I want to thank Gary Hollis back in Pahrump, Nevada.
	I want to thank Sharon Jackson, who owns KNY, who's been handling a lot of this for me and doing a great job.
	Michael London down in Subic, here in the Philippines, who's been helping me out with a lot of ideas and stuff like that.
	But what you'll see at the bottom of this, after going through all of this, this nightmare, down at the bottom, you will see that the Congressman contacted I contacted the USCIS California Service Center for me and the response was, thank you for contacting the Congressional Liaison Team within the California Service Center.
	Since the applicant is out of the country after the case was denied, the petitioner will need to start from filing the I-130 petition again for the beneficiary.
	The reason for the denial was explained in the denial notice that your constituent received.
	The evidence was not received.
	That's why they denied our claim.
	The evidence was not received.
	The applicant's status has been terminated.
	That's a tough word.
	Terminated at this point and she will not be able to return to the United States using the stamps in her passport.
	Signed by a adjudication officer in the Congressional Unit.
	So far, the Congressman nor Senator Reid, neither one to my knowledge, have thus far brought up the point that they did receive the evidence!
	Thank God I had the presence of mind.
	I mean, there's a parcel number, you know, a mail number.
	As far as I know, in government offices, it's probably standard protocol.
	They've got to log in mail, right?
	And they do it by the number.
	You can see the thing yourself.
	Click on it, by the way, and make it larger so you can see it.
	And there's a red arrow pointing to USCIS received January 15th.
	So even though it's their mistake, they either lost Or, I hesitate to think that they tampered with mail, but I've got to recognize the possibility that somebody perhaps at the USCIS office looked at it and said, boy, what an age difference, we're going to trash this thing.
	Or maybe, maybe somebody knows who I am.
	Now, I did not.
	I did not tell them who I was.
	I didn't say, look, I'm a talk show host and blah, blah, blah, blah.
	I didn't do any of that.
	I just did this as anybody else would do it, claiming no special privilege of any kind.
	And they trampled me like yesterday's garbage.
	They trampled my wife like yesterday's garbage.
	I, I, you know, it's possible.
	That somebody there recognized me and said, Art Bell.
	Aha!
	Into the trash.
	Well, that's a federal offense.
	Now, as far as I know, in a U.S.
	government operation like the USCIS, they've got a log-in mail, right?
	And they do it by parcel number.
	So why would it be so difficult Instead of just saying, we never got your evidence, why would it be so difficult to just take this, trace the mail, and by the way, I've contacted the U.S.
	Postal Inspectorate, my God, I even contacted the FBI.
	So, I've done all kinds of things.
	Somebody, somewhere can trace this mail, find all this evidence with, by the way, an awful lot of personal stuff in it.
	Really personal, like your Last Will and Testament stuff, you know, stuff like that.
	Find it for me, hand it to the right person, and do the right thing.
	But I have my doubts.
	Denied with no appeal is denied with no appeal.
	At this point we'll take a break, and I think I'll be right back.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Anyway, we left the United States on March 10th, 2009, and as I wrote, when I wrote to my congressman and my senator, I said, look, I think of myself as a good American.
	However, I really don't feel as though I've been treated as one.
	Can you possibly help out in trying to untangle some of this mess?
	I have no idea what my wife's status, that was before we had any idea what her status was.
	And I have no idea what steps I ought to take next.
	I've called the USCIS, I've faxed them, I've sent return receipt required letters, all with no response, or with a response that, oh, that's another thing.
	We got these responses from the USCIS that didn't seem to even relate to our case.
	You know, like, send $575.
	Huh?
	Or, we sent you the wrong form, we're sorry.
	And it just went on and on and on.
	They sent some wrong forms, all right.
	Some stuff that didn't even relate to us.
	It was like they had us mixed up with somebody else, whatever the case may be.
	This is just a total nightmare.
	More of this little nightmare, and then we'll take some calls in a moment.
	Got a fast blast from... Yeah, you can send fast blasts, by the way.
	You can go to the website and there's a fast blast area there.
	You type a little sentence and I'll get it.
	It'll pop up on my screen.
	Isn't technology wonderful?
	Cliff in Texas says, hey Art, I've got a solution to your problem.
	Let your wife use her maiden name to get back in the good old USA by way of Mexico.
	Don't forget to send her through the border nine months pregnant.
	Let her drop an anchor and Yeah, you know, that's what's bothering me, Cliff, is that if you try and do things the legal proper, every I dotted, every T crossed, there's no end to the punishment you get.
	I mean, here we are at the end of a two-year process!
	Paperwork, flying, fees, forms, you have no idea.
	Some of you do, I suppose.
	You've probably been through it, because I'm seeing an awful lot of messages about others who've been through similar things.
	As I mentioned, you know, I didn't tell them who I was.
	There was no point in that.
	I thought a good American could, you know, who's married, could go through the process reasonably and expect, I don't know, to be treated like an American.
	But it obviously didn't work out that way.
	And then I thought, Well alright, I'm gonna go on the air and screech and yell about this because it's wrong.
	It's wrong if it happens to me and if it happens to me it can sure happen to you or anybody else.
	And I guess I just don't feel like I've been treated like... I don't know.
	So anyway...
	I thought, well, all right, I'll go on the air and screech and yell about this, and then I'll put a place where people can complain.
	But who do you complain to?
	Because trust me when I tell you this, there is no way to have a conversation with USCIS.
	They have a national number that you can call, and it's like a call center, you know, and they don't know anything about your case, but they can say things like, oh, sure, Mr. Bell, go down, get an info pass, get her passport stamped, you can travel, no problem.
	They can do that kind of stuff.
	But in terms of really talking about the case, they can't do anything.
	Then, you could try and email them, but there's no email addresses.
	None!
	They have put up fences around their agency, so you cannot, you cannot talk to them.
	You cannot fax them.
	If you fax them, they say, we no longer can accept faxes regarding any cases at this number.
	Please write to or do whatever.
	And so they reject those.
	So phone calls, faxes, emails, none of it does any good at all.
	They've walled themselves off.
	And then I thought, well, then, okay, if I go on the air and talk about this, who do I point people to?
	There's nowhere to point.
	Your emails would bounce.
	So I thought, well, hey, As you know, many of you know, I've been a supporter of President Obama since way back at the beginning.
	Well, I'm already talking to my congressman, there's no point in flooding him with anything.
	Senator Harry Reid, very powerful senator, very powerful.
	No point in flooding him, he's trying to help me too.
	So, the only place that I saw where email might arrive is the President of the United States!
	So that's what's up on the website right now, and I would be so appreciative if you would fire off an email, all you've got to do is fill out the little form, and then fire off an email to the President and say, hey, what's up with this?
	Not just Art's case.
	Well, you know what?
	I could come back to the United States.
	I mean, I'm a U.S.
	citizen, so I could come back.
	My daughter could come back.
	She was born there.
	But my wife can't, and there's no way in the world, there's no way in the world that I would leave my wife and daughter.
	Uh, or remove my daughter from my wife.
	Oh, I wouldn't forget that.
	Remove myself from my wife.
	There's no way I would do any of that and leave.
	No way.
	So I'm here for the... maybe forever.
	I mean, case denied!
	Boom!
	No appeal.
	I really need to stop banging on the table.
	I need something I can bang on.
	I have been as upset about this as a person can be in life, and so that's the whole story, that's it.
	So there's a little place, if you go to the coast2coastam.com website, you can read about everything I just told you about, you can see, you can see the evidence that they received, what they say they didn't receive.
	As I mentioned, I've gone to the U.S.
	Inspector General, Postal Inspector General, and I've said, look, please, Trace this mail.
	Confirm that USCIS got it and then start in the mail room and find out who decided to throw it in the trash.
	All my important personal documents into the... I can't call it that, a trash can.
	Or whatever was done.
	It's just utter speculation.
	Maybe somebody knew that I did coast to coast to him and doesn't like me.
	There are those, you know.
	Or maybe, as I mentioned earlier, they looked at our age difference and said, ha ha ha, threw it in the trash.
	I don't know.
	But we have irrefutable evidence that it arrived, and there is a parcel number, and that can be traced because I'm sure it has to be logged in at the USCIS mail room.
	So they have all this, if they want to find it.
	If somebody didn't shred it.
	I mean, this is mail tampering, or it's something.
	And I'm going to find out what.
	Well, that's the whole story.
	That's it, folks.
	So here I am.
	Can't come back.
	Can't re-enter.
	Can't do anything.
	I just waited until we got over here for a short visit to drop all that on us.
	Anyway, once again, all of this can be read on the Coast2CoastAM.com website.
	And if you would jot off a note to the President, it's so easy to do with that link there, I would be forever Not that I think it'll really get to the President, mind you, but maybe it'll be enough of them that it'll get to somebody who has some power to do something.
	Let's take a few calls.
	Um, let us begin with, um, oh, how about Alex in Toronto?
	Hi, Alex!
	Hey, good morning, Art.
	I can empathize where you're coming from.
	My wife's American, and when we first got married, we did everything above board.
	Told the truth.
	I was gonna move down to the States.
	And I had a job lined up and everything, and it was just one thing after the other.
	Another fee, another form, another document that needed to be filled out.
	It was just a complete and utter nightmare.
	My wife got a job up here.
	We're living in Canada, which is, I mean, it's not a hardship, but when we go back now to cross the border, at Detroit, we get to the U.S.
	Customs side, and they're like, they ask my wife, what's your citizenship?
	U.S.
	They'll ask me, what's yours?
	Canadian.
	I'll say, what's your relationship?
	We're married.
	And boom, we're right into the secondary inspection lane.
	Every time.
	Do you manage to make it through and then actually enter the country?
	We've been, she's, we've been twice when I've been denied and she's been allowed because she's a citizen.
	They can't deny her entry.
	Right, right.
	But they can deny me entry.
	So there's been twice.
	And she's tried contacting congressmen and senators and state senators and all of that.
	And you get form letters back.
	I know, I know, I know.
	Thank you very much for contacting us.
	I know, they're like little gods.
	It's just, so I can empathize where you're coming from, but I really don't think it's the age difference that's doing it, because my wife and I were born the same year and we're getting the same rigmarole.
	So I think what it is is faceless bureaucrats who just don't care.
	Well, that's also a possibility.
	I mean, anything's possible.
	It's possible that somebody in the mailroom dropped it, stomped on it, and threw it away.
	I mean, who knows?
	And let's be honest, Art.
	Let's be brutally honest.
	You've uncovered a lot of things and you've made a lot of enemies in the establishment because you tell the truth.
	And the truth is anathema to a lot of people who are long-term civil servants.
	There is that as well.
	There is that.
	All right, buddy.
	Thanks a million.
	I'm sorry you've been through what you've been through.
	I still think America is a beautiful country, and I still think Americans are the best friends Canada ever has, and I'm happy that we're friends.
	Take care.
	I'm happy we're friends, too.
	Or that you're friends, I guess, from over here.
	I've got to take that perspective, eh?
	Let's go to, oh, in Las Vegas.
	In Las Vegas is Richard.
	Hello, Richard.
	Hi, Art.
	It's good to hear your voice.
	I'm sorry you and your family Going through this after all you've been through.
	But I have a couple points.
	Number one, I don't trust any male people here in Las Vegas.
	I've lost a lot of things and a lot of people here in Las Vegas know you, which was just brought up.
	And I think that's, you know, that's a sad, sad state of affairs.
	But the other thing that really irks me is I don't understand if they say that they sent you the wrong information, the wrong form, that has to mean that they already got your stuff.
	I don't know.
	They claim they don't.
	I mean, look, go up there and read through the thing and you will see they clearly say Let me read it.
	The reason for the denial.
	I'm reading here what the USCIS returned to the Congressman.
	The reason for the denial was explained in the denial notice that your constituent received.
	The evidence was not received.
	In other words, without another word from the point where I sent the evidence in, which was January 13th by the way, you can confirm that, they received it two days later on the 15th.
	Stamped.
	USCIS received January 15th.
	And now they stand behind their impenetrable brick wall and claim they didn't get it.
	It's denied.
	There's no appeal.
	And that's, that's, that's un-American in my opinion.
	Let's go east all the way to the state of Illinois.
	And Linda, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Art.
	I'm from Illinois, and we have ICE detainees in our town.
	And a lot of these people are, like, they're in the position like you are.
	And they're being jailed for it.
	I know.
	I know, but I mean, those are people probably, who for the most part, came in illegally in the first place.
	Yeah, some of them have.
	I talked to one lady, though, that her visa had expired and they wouldn't renew it.
	And she was trying to get it renewed and she went to the embassy up in Chicago and they jailed her.
	You know, that's also, once you've, you know, I know something about all this, not a great deal, but once you've overstayed a visa, in other words, once that date has gone past and you remain in the United States, then you're subject to all kinds of penalties.
	Now, that's not the case with us, of course.
	They waited until we came over here for a little trip.
	As you know, we've bounced back and forth between the Philippines and the U.S.
	for some time now.
	They waited until we got over here on a little trip.
	Boom!
	Stamp denied.
	No appeal.
	End of story.
	So, there's not going to be any issues about You know, having overstayed a visa, or being deported, or any of that baloney.
	It's just like, oh, you're out of the country, good time to deny, and you can't do anything about it, boom.
	So, I don't know, I have, I alternate between being so angry that I can't sleep at night, and then just being sad, and then being angry again, I mean, here we are, The other side of the world.
	And when we get here, for very important reasons to us, within days... Boom!
	Stamp!
	Tonight!
	You can't come back!
	It's just... It's... Grrrr!
	I do a lot of that.
	Grrrr!
	Good morning!
	This is Charles in Santa Monica, California.
	Hey, Charles.
	How you doing, Art?
	Well, you can hear me.
	Yes, I can hear you.
	Yeah, I got a girl in the Philippines right now.
	She lives in Palawan, and I'm hearing this horror story from you, and I'm really afraid to try and bring her over here.
	Yeah, I'm sure you're thinking, boy, look what's ahead of me.
	There's an age difference between us.
	I'm 50 and she's 23.
	Oh, and by the way, I actually went to Google, you know, trying to figure out why this might have happened.
	The first time we sent in the evidence for our marriage, we sent in plenty of evidence to prove that it was a good, solid, you know, marriage.
	And so I thought, well, why would they want more evidence on top of all this?
	I sent them an inch thick of evidence.
	So I went to Google, I put in immigration age difference, and they said, As I read some of the responses, that it was in fact a trigger for perhaps asking for additional evidence.
	So that could have been it.
	But that's not my gripe.
	My gripe is, I said it!
	I did everything right!
	I did it all just by the book, paid the fees, filled out the forms, two years in process, and then they end it all like that, without even asking anything.
	Yes, that's what I'm waiting for her to finish school.
	She's in college right now.
	I have a friend that's got a girl over there.
	I think he married her.
	He went over there and he married her.
	And there's an age difference between them, too.
	You know, for some reason the Filipino girls like the older guys here in America.
	Yeah, it's very common.
	But it's also, once again, it is a trigger.
	So maybe you can expect something like that to occur to you, with any luck at all.
	And maybe that's what the key word is, luck.
	Yours will just go sailing through.
	Who knows?
	To Los Angeles and Daniel.
	Good morning, Daniel.
	Good morning, Art.
	Sorry about the bad news.
	My belief system is that God is in control and that we're living in some type of a very complicated matrix and that there is no such thing as a coincidence and that the word angel means messenger.
	So when you get a message, any letter, you have to Look it up in the Bible to find out what the message is.
	Well, Daniel, I think God's involved, too.
	But not the big G God.
	I think it's the little g gods.
	That's partially true.
	The ones at USCIS.
	That's what they act like.
	They act like little G gods and I...
	You know, I shouldn't be this angry, but I am.
	It's...
	It's my own, it's my country.
	And how, how can my country do this to me?
	When you, when you make a decision to do everything the right way, in fact to overdo it, you know, I sent them enough evidence to choke a horse.
	This was the very last step in an over two year process and I sent them so much evidence, you know, that I just, I relaxed because I knew nobody could look at all this And say that it was not a real marriage, that it was done for, you know, somebody making a fee to get into the other, or whatever it is that they check on.
	I don't blame them for checking on that kind of thing, but to distort and pervert the process to the degree they did in order to say no is just, you know, words I can't use on the air, but I'll say un-American is what I'll say.
	Jake at Oceanside, good morning, you're on the air.
	Hey, how you doing Art?
	Well, you've been listening, you know.
	Oh yeah, definitely.
	You know, my story's a little bit different.
	I'm an American citizen, so is my wife.
	I'm 28 years old.
	We went on a trip to Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico, and we must have gone through 15 border patrol checks, and at every single one of them, we were pretty much, I mean, I was like scoped out, you know.
	And they had us opening our car up, opening the back up, what's inside your cooler, you know, this and that.
	I mean, of course, I had nothing on me.
	And it made me feel really insecure.
	Almost as if we were in a state of martial law already.
	You know, we've got a big border problem.
	I mean, nobody can deny that.
	We've got a big border problem.
	And honestly, even though I know it's inconvenient, I...
	I don't object to having my stuff checked.
	I don't object to having myself checked and my wife and my child and, you know, we want our borders protected.
	America's got to have its borders protected.
	So it's inconvenient, but if you take an airplane these days, oh, you're going to go through quite a bit if you're traveling internationally.
	And, you know, again, it's okay.
	I can handle that.
	When you try and do everything the right way, the legal, every I dotted, every T crossed way, and then you get... I can't use that on the air either.
	You get the idea, right?
	When we get back, we've got a special guest coming up for you.
	You're gonna really love it.
	Robert Bob Koontz.
	When we return.
	Good, uh, morning.
	Morning across, uh, most of the world listening to me right now.
	Although, where I am, it's, uh, I don't know, a little after two in the afternoon, but the room is darkened down for Coast and, uh... Oh, by the way, Andrew in Tremont, Illinois said, hey Art, don't forget Heinlein's Razor.
	I thought it was Occam's, but he says Heinlein's Razor.
	Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
	Perhaps the only villain is poor funding and organization, not much consolation, though.
	Yeah, I know.
	And, you know, speculation is all you can do when you don't know anything else.
	And when they block themselves off and wall themselves off so it's impossible to talk to them, you're left with nothing but speculation.
	So I hope that those of you who are listening to me right now will take a moment, just a moment, to go up to the website, click on the, you know, the whole thing and by the way you can read the the evidence that I supplied there and and then read the whole thing down at the bottom or not at the bottom but actually pretty far toward the top I guess there's a little link you can click on and you can actually write the President of the United States and I would be so appreciative if in my behalf you would do so not that I necessarily think it's going to go anywhere but you never know as I mentioned I've been an Obama supporter since way back before it became fashionable so perhaps
	Perhaps somebody will take notice.
	Gee, this does seem like a lot of messages.
	Maybe we should look into it.
	But I'm not placing bets on that.
	Coming up in a moment, Robert Koontz.
	Now, after Robert Koontz earned his, listen to this, PhD degree in experimental nuclear physics at the University of Maryland, he became a staff scientist at Lawrence Berkeley Labs.
	He's taught analog and digital electronics at the National Security Agency.
	That's the no such agency place.
	Taught physics at the University of Maryland and at the University of South Dakota.
	His lifetime National Security Agency clearance is top secret with cryptographic endorsement and code word access.
	In 2002, Dr. Kuntz took several fairly clear photographs of a disc-shaped object that was flying over central Pennsylvania.
	This led him to begin research into anti-gravity.
	There's nothing like seeing something like that to fire you up and change your life.
	So he started looking into anti-gravity.
	All this culminates in an experimental test of the Bifield-Brown anti-gravity effect in 2003.
	For the last Six years, Dr. Kuntz has been investigating methods of producing energy following the work of Nikola Tesla and Dr. Thomas Henry Murray.
	According to Dr. Kuntz, an American inventor by the name of Stan Meyer demonstrated to a patent examining board patents.
	I guess you have to be patient when you're getting patents.
	But he was, and he explained to them, that Mr. Meyer's invention could produce hydrogen quickly enough that a car could be made to essentially run on water.
	And since I'm in the Philippines, and we'll talk about this, I'm sure, there's a fellow here in the Philippines who is running a car on water.
	Such a car was then produced by Stan Meyer, who is now deceased.
	Finally, Dr. Kuhn says, he believes that if we do not have a true energy revolution in this country and the world, and I think most of you agree with that by now, then because of massive indebtedness, and we've got plenty of that, massive deficit spending, plenty of that, the U.S., And the world is likely to enter an economic dark age that may greatly exceed that of the Great Depression.
	We're all worried about that.
	But he says, if we act in time, then a new golden age could arise for America and the world in a moment, Dr. Kuntz.
	All right, here we go.
	Robert Kuntz, welcome to Coast to Coast AM, your first appearance.
	Thank you, Art.
	It's very nice to talk with you.
	This is a great honor for me.
	I've been a fan of yours for 20 years.
	I've been with you through Mel's Hole, the interview with Bob Lazar, The Sounds of Hell.
	You really have been there.
	And many other things.
	Oh, yeah.
	I work nights.
	And when I work nights, I listen to you.
	Because listen, Art, you don't have to be right all the time.
	You don't have to be right 90% of the time.
	You only have to be right once in the things that you address, such as UFOs.
	Well, you're a relative, I think, of Dean's, aren't you?
	Yeah, that's my cousin.
	Your cousin.
	I had the pleasure of interviewing Dean some time ago.
	He's quite a fellow.
	He's quite a fellow, right.
	And apparently so are you and I. You know, usually somebody who has a Ph.D.
	degree in experimental nuclear physics, has been at Lawrence Berkeley Labs and all the rest of it, would be Oh, I don't know.
	Really, really hesitant to report one of those things.
	Yeah, that's probably true.
	That's probably true.
	Probably.
	Well, you can do better than probably.
	I mean, how hesitant were you?
	You saw the thing, you got a photograph even.
	And so, how long did you think about it, Robert, before you reported?
	Seven years.
	So I didn't go public with it right away.
	Now this is a pretty good picture in my opinion.
	You know, some people report a blob in the sky and they call it a UFO, but in my opinion this is not a blob in the sky.
	This is not a UFO.
	This is a picture of a flying saucer.
	I would agree with that.
	I've seen the photographs.
	There's a few questions I have about them.
	For example, the object appears to be, and you documented, trailing smoke.
	Well, I don't know.
	That's an interesting question.
	You know, unless the object is wounded, you know, and on fire or something like that, you wouldn't expect smoke from a UFO traversing the sky.
	I agree with you, Art.
	Now, that raises the question of what's going on here.
	Now, for a second there, this object was traveling very slowly.
	I estimate the speed to be 10 or 15 miles per hour.
	I took 20 pictures, and with my little Pan-cam camera with a bitmap image processing system, a CCD type device, a relatively inexpensive thing.
	Still in all, though, you're one in a million.
	Most people who see UFOs curse themselves later for all the cameras sitting at home.
	Yeah, I understand that.
	But also, it was bright daylight.
	This was 1130 in the afternoon on August 8th of 2002, a bright, bright day, and I stopped
	I saw this unusual con.
	I thought it was a contrail.
	It wasn't a contrail, but it was so unusual.
	I stopped my car.
	Now, at that time, you were talking a lot about chemtrails.
	And I thought, well, maybe this is something to do with that.
	Now, I don't necessarily know what chemtrails are or whether they're regular trails or not.
	But anyhow, I took these pictures and then I moved my car to get closer to the object.
	I drove about six miles, seven miles.
	Now the object had to be moving slowly if I'm driving my car six or seven miles to catch up with it, and I took, I don't know, three or four more pictures, took them home, blew them up on the computer, and I found that it was a disc-shaped object with a dome.
	It's not just a disc-shaped object, it's got a dome, there's two orientations of it, it's traveling slowly, and it appears to be trailing smoke.
	Now, my conclusion then was, well, not my conclusion, my thoughts were, what is going on?
	And what is holding that thing up in the air?
	I mean, you know, there wasn't, it wasn't traveling fast enough for there to be some sort of lift, and the aerodynamic design of the thing wouldn't seem to be like an airplane, so what is holding it up?
	And I came to the conclusion it was some sort of anti-gravitic system.
	Well, Bob, my late wife and I, if you've been a listener a long time, I think you know we had a sighting of a triangular object.
	I know that.
	And I estimated it, you know, 30 or 40 miles an hour.
	It was directly above us, and I said the exact same thing.
	Look, this was not aerodynamic flight.
	Simple as that.
	The air wasn't moving fast enough to hold this thing up.
	It was massive.
	So, same thing in your case.
	What did you conclude, Bob?
	In other words, you thought very hard about this for a long time before reporting it seven years.
	What did you see?
	Okay.
	My analysis was that either it's extraterrestrial or it's terrestrial.
	Now, either way, there's some sort of anti-gravitic thing going on, in my opinion.
	I don't see any other way.
	So, that led me to do anti-gravitic analysis and experiments and research.
	But now, let me get back to the trailing smoke.
	I think the thing appeared to be wobbling.
	I took two different pictures of it at different angles.
	That is to say, its spin axis had two different orientations.
	So it looks like it was wobbling a little bit, it was traveling very slowly, moving maybe 15 miles an hour, and it was trailing smoke.
	It did not appear to be an exhaust, but rather appeared to be trailing smoke.
	So it looked to be like some sort of craft in distress.
	Now whether or not that was extraterrestrial, I can't say for certain, but I don't know of any flying saucers in our inventory that are flying over central Pennsylvania at 1130 a.m.
	in the middle of the day, such a bright day and all these circumstances.
	The one thing I do know, Bob, is that it changes your life.
	You're never going to be the same person again after you've seen something like that.
	Now those black triangles, that's another subject I'd like to talk with you about sometime.
	But what's going on with those?
	I've got a neighbor over here, a very trustworthy lady, who I know very, very well.
	And she saw this black triangle, a very large, solid angle.
	That is to say, the angular width of the object in the sky was very large.
	It was not a distant object.
	It was traveling very slowly, maybe 10, 15, 40, 30, 20 miles an hour.
	And she got a good look at it, and she got a look at another time of a triangle, a black triangle.
	Actually, Bob, there have been thousands of those reports, and the type that you've given us, fortunately with the photographic evidence to go with it.
	And I came to the same conclusion, Bob.
	It was either extraterrestrial, a strong possibility I thought, or terrestrial with a propulsion system that involves the repulsion of gravity.
	There are so many implications to this, with regard to, I mean, we're in deep doo-doo in this world right now for energy.
	We are.
	It's our debt, $12 trillion, and we've got $1.8 trillion estimated deficit this year, and 7 million people unemployed, 10% unemployment rate.
	We've got serious problems, and you're exactly right, Art.
	This could be the answer.
	Surprisingly, UFOs can lead us to energy.
	Yeah, but here's the problem, Bob.
	If we possess this kind of technology, if we possess some sort of anti-gravity drive, the implication is that we would solve our energy problems.
	and then you've got to wonder what in the world our own government would be doing, ignoring
	a solution at a moment of crisis in America and the world.
	Why would they continue to hide this if it was terrestrial?
	Well, I don't necessarily believe they are hiding it, or maybe they are hiding some of
	I believe that the Russians, formerly the Soviets, had some of this technology with their scalar electromagnetic weapons that Tom, Dr. Tom Bearden has talked about.
	And I've seen evidence that those weapons have been used with a reach, to reach America.
	Yeah, but Bob, they are hiding it.
	I mean, they have not applied the technology in any way to the private sector, given it to any company who's said, well look, okay, we can build this little thing, it'll run your house, it'll run your city, whatever.
	We're at a moment of crisis in the world.
	We're polluting the hell out of it, and so they are hiding it.
	I'm sorry, they're hiding it.
	The Russians might be.
	I don't know about American scientists.
	Now, you know, the way things get clogged up in the government, there could be some thick-headed character at the top of the food chain that's saying no to all this.
	And I, you know, it isn't as if President Obama, or formerly President Bush, is responsible, because this never reaches their ears, in my opinion.
	A lot of this is held close to the vest by some clique or group of individuals at the CIA or at the
	national security level somewhere, and they keep a lid on it, at least at the UFOs.
	Now, my opinion, we've been visited. I can't, you know, let's get, let me be frank with you.
	I don't think that that was one of our craft.
	I don't think we have flying saucers flying over Pennsylvania like that in the middle of the day.
	I mean, you know, maybe we do, but I don't think so.
	And so I think, I'm pretty sure, and not only that, there's lots of other evidence.
	I've researched this enough to conclude pretty much 100% we're being visited by extraterrestrials that have anti-gravitic technology and other forms of technology.
	That are extremely advanced.
	I don't know how far.
	Maybe a million years.
	It could be a billion years more advanced than we are.
	And, you know, the universe is supposed to be 14 billion years old approximately.
	Our solar system is only maybe 5 billion years old.
	So what is that?
	Even before our solar system was formed, there could have been 9 billion years of development.
	There's a lot of anecdotal evidence, and I guess you can argue some serious photographic evidence and some serious evidence, but there's no smoking gun that I'm aware of, Bob.
	Now, you've done a lot of research.
	Maybe you've stumbled into one, but there's nothing that you can say incontrovertibly Here it is.
	Smoking gun.
	We're being visited.
	They're here.
	They have this technology, and if you've got that smoking gun, lay it out.
	Okay.
	Let me just put the evidence forward.
	Now, part of it represents testimony.
	You know, when you have a nuclear... You know those... You were in the Air Force, I believe.
	I was, yes.
	Yes.
	You know those guys down there in the nuclear silos?
	The ones with the keys?
	They're sitting in those padded chairs on the springs.
	Those guys don't mess around.
	Alright?
	When they tell you, if a person with that kind of background tells me that a flying saucer or a UFO shut down his nuclear silo, I believe him.
	Yes, I'm well aware of those stories.
	I guess you're referring to the silos that were in fact shut down by UFOs that hovered over them some many years ago now.
	Exactly.
	And one or more of those people, kind of men, testified with Dr. Stephen Greer at the National Press Club.
	So we have the testimony, and then there's also Philip J. Corso, Colonel Corso's testimony.
	I know you have, Art.
	I've listened to it many times, over and over again.
	I dissect these things.
	I deconstruct everything.
	I say, why would this guy lie?
	I don't just say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I don't necessarily believe anything.
	I really think about it, and Colonel Accorso was not a man who's going to be making up these kind of stories.
	Very few of these guys would do that.
	But it's still Bob, anecdotal.
	Maybe you can make the argument that collectively all of this eyewitness testimony adds up to a smoking gun, but not for the really hard-hearted.
	Okay, now there is the work of Dr. Roger Lear.
	He has removed presumptive implants from individuals including one US American
	scientist and they analyzed these objects and they found they had non-terrestrial isotope
	ratios in the device if you will. That sounds true, I know. Non-terrestrial
	isotope ratios. Now how does a person, excuse me, get non-terrestrial isotopic materials in his body, his arm,
	his foot, his ear?
	I'm...
	How does that happen?
	Now, secondarily to that, Dr. Lear also indicates that these devices emit electromagnetic radiation that would be akin to radio waves.
	In the region of 90, uh, in the FM spectrum, maybe around 93 megahertz.
	I don't know exactly the frequency.
	Okay, thirdly, these devices, when examined by scanning electron microscopes, show microstructure.
	That is to say, microscopic programming type things like integrated circuits, but maybe more sophisticated.
	Now, those are three things.
	Right there.
	There's non-terrestrial isotope ratios, there is the microstructure, and there's emission of electromagnetic radiation from these devices.
	Then there's additional testimony relating to other physical phenomena that occurs in association with those implants.
	So that's evidence.
	Right there is evidence.
	So it isn't as if there's no evidence.
	Oh, no.
	Collectively, there is a very great deal of evidence, Bob.
	But again, for those who are not going to be convinced until they lay their own hand on something extraterrestrial, until they're told by, oh, I don't know, President Obama or, you know, somebody at that level, that it's real, it is so, it's on CNN, that's when people will believe.
	And until then, they're going to say, oh, come on.
	Well, Art, you know, I think you're right.
	There are lots of people that are just going to say it's all nonsense.
	And, well, they're free to do that.
	This is a free country.
	But my opinion is that the evidence, if one carefully examines the evidence... Now, I'll tell you something.
	Some of these skeptics that they roll out... Bob, I've got to hold you there.
	We're at a break point.
	Bob Kuntz is my guest.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	It is good afternoon from the other side of the world, everybody, the Southeast Asian capital city of the Philippines, Manila.
	I'm Art Bell.
	It's great to be here.
	Robert Kuntz is my guest, and he's got some pretty impressive credentials for somebody saying what he's saying.
	PhD degree in experimental nuclear physics at the University of Maryland, staff scientist at Lawrence Berkeley Labs, and on and on.
	He worked with the NSA and on and on and on.
	saw something he cannot explain, as so many millions of us have.
	It changes your life, and what you're going to hear is just not the sort of thing you would hear from somebody with these kinds of credentials normally, so listen closely.
	We'll be right back.
	I think that we may be back.
	We had a momentarily, a momentary glitch, and I think we're back with Bob Coons.
	Bob, are you there?
	Yes, sir, I'm here.
	Well, not yet.
	I don't know if you can hear me.
	I can hear you, Art.
	But we had sort of a little glitch is what we had, and so far it continues to glitch because I'm not hearing anything coming back.
	Oh, bear in mind that we're working from one side of the world to the other, and so I guess for some reason I have no audio coming back, so I have serious doubts that we're actually on the air, but one never knows, and one told me a long time ago that if you have a If you have a microphone in front of you, never say anything that you wouldn't say otherwise.
	So I will refrain from doing that and I will go ahead and disconnect what apparently is not working.
	We'll go ahead and drop this and hope they reconnect.
	Okay.
	We are now back on the air and hopefully we've got Robert Kuntz back with us.
	Okay, they're currently calling back our guest.
	And again, for those of you who are tuning in late, I would very, very, very much appreciate your going to coastcoastam.com, our website.
	And taking a look at this incredible story that I've put up there for you, and I would deeply appreciate it from the bottom of my heart if you would take the time, a moment or two, and dash off a note to the President based on what you read.
	Again, not that I think it'll necessarily register and do any good, but it's just a way of, I don't know, complaining to a high place.
	The USCIS has themselves walled off so well that It's simply not possible to get hold of them.
	All right, Robert, I guess you're back.
	Yes, sir, I'm here.
	I have a feeling they may have had a power outage or something of that sort in California because you disappeared, as did the connection between this side of the world and California.
	Well, I'm still here.
	I didn't actually disappear.
	Sometimes you have to wonder.
	You get into some of these sensitive subjects, Robert, and you have to wonder.
	I wonder frequently.
	Anyway, you've done, as a result of what you saw, and the fact that you've been, you know, then motivated to get into research about all this, you and I are going to have to disagree.
	I've got to take the, even though I could not be more of a believer, I guess I understand.
	You know, I worked with Dr. Greer and others, just about everybody in ufology for all these years, and so I'm pretty much of a believer, but I understand those who are not, and I understand what it's going to take For them to become believers.
	However, we're fortunate that you have the kind of credentials you do, fortunate that you saw what you saw, and that led you into research into anti-gravity.
	In fact, more than that, it led you into experiments with anti-gravity.
	And I would be very, very interested in what those experiments, what you did and what they proved.
	Okay.
	Well, let me first give the listeners my website so they can look at the pictures later, and then follow all this.
	Okay, that's drkoontz.com.
	D-O-C-T-O-R-K-O-O-N-T-Z dot com.
	Okay.
	Now, with respect to the antigravity, we don't necessarily have to believe in extraterrestrial spacecraft in order to discuss antigravity.
	Right.
	Somehow, this object I saw was suspended in the air, more or less.
	Now, let's assume that there are objects that can be suspended in that way, no matter where they come from.
	Okay, now what is going on with the physics about that?
	What is holding it up?
	And the answer would be that if there's no helicopter type action going on or something like that, then it's got to be, and if it's not nuclear, Physics has something called the Standard Model of Four Forces.
	The Electromagnetic Interaction, the Gravitational Interaction, and two Nuclear Interactions, the Strong and the Weak.
	Now, if we can rule out the Nuclear Interactions, the Strong and the Weak Nuclear Interactions, that leaves you with Electromagnetic Interaction and a Gravitational Interaction.
	Okay.
	Now, the Electromagnetic Interaction is the interaction that allows us to build Transmitters and receivers and integrated circuits and all those things.
	And the gravitational interaction is what causes something to have a downward force due to the mass of the Earth, for instance.
	Okay, so how then do we engineer some sort of electrogravitic interaction?
	There's got to be some sort of connection between electricity and gravity.
	Electromagnetic interaction and gravity.
	I'm certainly willing to accept the possibility, sure.
	Yeah, okay.
	Well, let's see now.
	Einstein tried to unify all the forces during the latter days of his life.
	He was unsuccessful, but he had the idea that they were all unified in some way.
	So possibly, let's at least accept the possibility there's an electro-gravitic interaction, an interaction between the electric Electromagnetic field and a gravitational field and I do believe that's what's going on here.
	And so what I did was I started after I took the pictures and blew it up.
	I didn't try to decide if it was an extraterrestrial spacecraft or not.
	I just believed it was some sort of anti-gravitic interaction and with that craft and I started to do research in anti-gravity.
	So here's a long story made short.
	I came up with something called, I researched this and found something called the Bayfield-Brown Effect.
	Now Bayfield was Dr. Bayfield, let's see, Alfred, yeah, Paul Alfred Bayfield was his name.
	Then there's another fellow named Townsend Brown, that's Dr. Townsend Brown.
	These are both PhD physicists.
	Dr. Bayfield was a colleague, a fellow student with Einstein.
	Dr. Brown was an excellent physicist, did very good work, and so let me tell you this in language that I believe you understand as a ham radio operator.
	Okay, you know what a capacitor is, of course, and a parallel plate capacitor can be made by taking, let's say, two sheets of aluminum, eight by ten, let's say, and putting between them a dielectric Perhaps my law is a good dielectric because it has a high breakdown voltage.
	If you put a high voltage, maybe somewhere between 20,000 and 100,000 volts, Now this is voltage without a great deal of current.
	In other words, we're talking almost about electrostatic charge.
	Exactly.
	No current.
	Very little current flowing through.
	Just a leakage current flowing in the capacitor.
	So you put this high voltage on there, and according to the Bayfield-Brown effect, the capacitor tends to translate or lose mass in the direction of the positive plate.
	Okay, now, so what I did was I did a classical Bayfield-Brown experiment.
	I set up a very delicate balance beam made of non-conducting material, wood and styrofoam or styrofoam-like materials.
	A balance beam, you know?
	Sure.
	Okay, so then I put capacitors on both large area capacitors, 8x10 capacitors on both sides of the balance beam.
	Now, then I left one of the capacitors uncharged, and I charged the other one up to about 20,000 volts.
	And I had a camera set up so I could get away from the system, away from the high voltage, and I could observe how much the balance beam moved.
	And what I found is that the balance beam arm moved at its outer, at the greatest distance, was about 10, I'm sorry, 10 mm, 20 mm, 2 cm, 2 or 3 cm, something like that.
	And it lost about 10 mg of effective mass.
	So I confirmed in my experiment the Bayfield-Brown effect.
	Now, there have been, there's probably been many people that have done this.
	I don't know if it's always been publicized.
	Okay, let me interrupt, Bob.
	There have been many who have subjected materials to the effect that you're discussing and they have observed, I can't recall what the percentage is of, you know, they actually weigh the items and so they can measure uh... of the amount of uh... weight reduction as this is
	being applied and they do measure very small amounts of weight reduction
	perhaps enough to move something around perhaps enough even
	to cause something to hover in midair i think they they've taken mice and and other
	small animals and have had them hovering in uh... in in midair
	well that's conventional physics there that's the uh...
	uh...
	the levitation of uh... an object with uh... conventional physics that
	that's magnetic uh... field physics there
	This is something different.
	Now, let me just say something about this.
	There are people who think they're doing the Bayfield-Brown experiment with these so-called lifters.
	They'll make an object that's very light, made of aluminum foil, In a certain manner, and they'll charge it up to high voltage with a wire, and the object will hover and float around.
	But that is not the classical Bayfield-Brown effect.
	The classical Bayfield-Brown effect is where it's something other than ion wind.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	But many people get this confused.
	Let me just say again, it's not ion wind.
	I guess I'm one of them.
	I thought you were referring to essentially the same experiment.
	I guess not.
	No, no.
	I'm talking about, now Dr. Brown did his experiments in vacuum, so it couldn't have been, some of his experiments were done in vacuum, so it could not have been ion wind, because ion wind is caused by the flow of ions around the metallic materials under high voltage due to the presence of oxygen and air, basically.
	Okay, so now if you do that in, again, if you do that in vacuum, you're not going to get the ion wind that some people have.
	Now, I'm not saying that the ion wind isn't a contributing factor to the lift of these objects.
	It probably is.
	But what I'm saying is there's another more fundamental effect called the Bayfield-Brown
	effect that has to do with anti-gravity.
	Now, this can be done fairly easily by physicists all over the world.
	It is not a big project.
	It may be a couple of weeks at most or a few weeks.
	Break it down for those of us who need the simple version.
	When you have done this successfully, what exactly have you proven and where do you go from that point?
	In other words, you've made something a little lighter, you've changed its apparent mass temporarily.
	Where can this possibly lead?
	Well, it looks like there's... Okay, if you hypothesize that there's an electrogravitic interaction, then this experiment indicates that there is indeed a possible electrogravitic interaction, i.e.
	antigravity.
	So my experiment, and the experiments of Drs.
	Bayfield and Brown, Indicates that Einstein is right about his unified field theory, at least concerning the electromagnetic interaction, in that there is a possible antigravity effect.
	So I would say that antigravity, I'm convinced that antigravity is possible.
	All right, let me try this avenue with you, Bob.
	If you had unlimited funds, which almost no scientist has, but assuming for a moment you had unlimited funds and you could proceed from the experiment you did, attempting to get to the point where you could lift a craft off the ground and defy gravity and slowly rise and then finally leave the Earth's atmosphere, how would you proceed?
	Well, let me just say this.
	You know about John Hutchison.
	I do.
	Okay, now John Hutchison, this is more sophisticated than the Bayfield-Brown effect.
	Much more sophisticated.
	Now John is a master instrument maker.
	He is not a conventionally trained scientist.
	He doesn't have advanced degrees, and he doesn't have knowledge in mathematics and conventional physics.
	But he's an intuitionist, if I can use that term.
	He's a brilliant scientist in his own right.
	And he is a brilliant instrument maker on the scale of Tesla.
	I mean, he builds very beautiful instruments.
	So he built these Tesla coils.
	I think they're somewhere between one megavolt and five megavolts.
	And he put those Tesla coils in opposition, in the sense that The electric, you know, an ordinary Tesla coil will spark.
	Well, these Tesla coils, as I understand it, were set up so they didn't spark.
	And what they did was produce canceling.
	This is critical.
	If people would understand this, it'd be very important.
	Canceling electromagnetic fields from two Tesla coils and possibly some other fields, he produced effects which caused, among other things, A 70-pound cannonball to float around, levitate.
	It's pretty serious.
	It is pretty serious.
	Now I'll tell you, this is gravely important for the security of this country.
	This is not a trivial matter.
	This is not inconsequential.
	You know, some of these people who dismiss John Hutchinson just by saying he's a fake, that's nonsense.
	I know the fellow.
	The man has given me proprietary information that I have used to verify some of his experiments.
	Most notably in his energy cells, I've replicated it.
	Now, let me say also, he has done other things.
	In front of engineer George Hathaway, which was videotaped, he took a piece of aluminum, I believe it was, you know, three by three inches by six inches or something like that, and turned that aluminum into powder in the presence of these cancelling electromagnetic fields.
	The last I heard of him, he was having grave difficulties with the Canadian government, local and national, I guess, of some sort, and they were, I don't know, trying to get him to clear out all of his equipment and stop what he's doing.
	Am I right?
	That's correct.
	Now, what happened was John was causing Things like some lady's jewelry just turned to mush in a neighbor's apartment.
	I understand it.
	And doors, he caused doors to open and close and all kinds of things.
	And so people, I can understand what their reaction, but you know, it's kind of dumb of the police to come in and put this guy in handcuffs.
	They should say, what in the world's going on here?
	We need to investigate this.
	If the Canadian people would wake up to the resource that they have in John Hutchison, He is a great scientist, and he has done wonderful things, and if they would wake up to what he's doing and try to replicate and understand what he's doing, they could have tremendous economic benefits.
	Well, Robert, I think the Chinese say that the nail sticking up is the one that gets pounded down.
	And, you know, he's been pounded down.
	There's no question about it.
	Yeah.
	So you think his research, in fact, his demonstrated experiments, and I presume all of this is available on videotape?
	Yes, I have it on my website.
	Oh, you do?
	I have the links to these videos on his website.
	All right.
	All right.
	The next obvious question is, aside from yourself, Bob, when you go to other legitimate degreed physicists, scientists, others who might be able to verify his work and or your work, what do you meet up with?
	Well, I said that George Hathaway, and I don't know if he's a PhD engineer, but he's an engineer.
	He's a member of the IEEE.
	Which I used to be a member of the IEEE too.
	That's the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers.
	And so he is an engineer.
	He went to Canada.
	He sat there and watched this metal change from solid state into powder.
	And this is cool, too.
	It doesn't heat up.
	It just breaks down.
	Now, there's one person.
	Now, let's see, what else?
	Well, this is going to take, to become anywhere near mainstream, it's going to take an awful lot.
	It's going to take a number of degreed scientists to look into it, replicate the experiments.
	You know, that is science, replicating things.
	That's what it's going to take, and so we're coming up on a break.
	Well, that might be true, but also if Art Bell were to go to somebody that had a car, let's say that man in the Philippines.
	If you have enough knowledge of electronics as a ham radio operator... Listen, we're at a break.
	We'll pick up on exactly this point when we get back.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Indeed, here I am.
	My guest is Robert, Bob Kuntz, and Bob has impeccable credentials, a PhD degree in experimental nuclear physics at the University of Maryland, staff scientist at Lawrence Berkeley and so forth.
	And he saw something he can't explain, as did I. This changes your life.
	In his case, though, he was uniquely positioned to begin researching and then experimenting with anti-gravity, which he has done.
	He mentioned a man, Stan Meyer, who has demonstrated that you can get a car to run on water.
	That's right.
	Convert to hydrogen and run on water.
	I've heard similar claims made, actually, believe it or not, by a man here in the Philippines, who I believe now and still is running around Metro Manila somewhere with a car that runs on water.
	Now, if this is true, if it's real, then You would go a long way towards saving the world, wouldn't it?
	What's our problem right now?
	Pollution?
	We're destroying the planet.
	We all know that.
	The ice caps are melting.
	A lot of really, really nasty things are going on.
	So, if we could all prove this, yes, we could change the world.
	We might not be able to rise up and out of the atmosphere just yet in something that defies gravity, but we surely could change the world.
	More in a moment.
	Alright, once again, Bob Kuntz.
	Bob, you mentioned somebody, Stan Meyer, who, before he passed, did demonstrate, I guess, successfully, a patent.
	Is that correct?
	Demonstrating that you can run a car on hydrogen, on water?
	Yes, Stan Meyer.
	I have seven of his patents on my website.
	Okay, now he demonstrated at least one of them.
	I'm not sure, maybe more.
	To the patent examining board that he could make hydrogen at a very fast rate.
	So fast that he could power a car with it.
	Now, let me stop here and say that most scientists would say that's impossible because they would say that it takes more energy to do this than you get out.
	The law of energy conservation.
	Okay, now, the problem is that these scientists, these physicists, do not take into consideration the possibility of gauge transformations.
	Something called gauge transformations.
	Excuse me.
	You may recall, when John Hutchison did his experiments, I said that he used cancelling electromagnetic waves.
	Now, you know about the Law of Energy Conservation.
	Generally, people say that energy is neither created nor destroyed.
	That is not a very good way to say the Law of Energy Conservation.
	What we should say is that the total energy of a closed system is constant.
	Now, what that means is that You can make one unit of positive energy as long as you make a unit of negative energy at the same time.
	And our scientists do not take into consideration the possibility that negative energy is being produced because they don't know about something called scalar waves, which also could be called gauge waves.
	Okay, now, in the case of Stan Meyer, I believe he found a resonance, a scalar resonance or a gauge resonance in copper and in water that produced negative energy scalar waves that allowed him to gain positive energy to break up the water into hydrogen and oxygen and then he ran his car on hydrogen and oxygen.
	Okay, so this automobile was being run on nothing but the converted water to hydrogen.
	Is that correct?
	In other words, there was no additional hydrogen introduced to do it?
	That's correct.
	Now, I was saying that if you were to go find this fellow in the Philippines, this older gentleman... Are you aware of that story, by the way?
	Yes, I am.
	I've seen the video on the internet.
	And it's pretty convincing.
	Now everyone, these skeptics that say it's a fake, they always say it's a fake, no matter what it is.
	They'll probably say my pictures are a fake.
	I don't know.
	But you can't, we can't let these people stand in our way.
	If you were to find that fellow and go look at it, you have enough knowledge about mechanics and electronics to make a determination if it's a fake or not.
	And they had people there that unplugged one thing and another, and it sure does look like that fellow was also Well, Bob, I do have some knowledge, but I can't put myself in your position.
	I don't have the kind of credentials you have.
	Yes, I know something about electronics and something about physics, but I don't know that I could go to this man, see what he's doing, and, you know, declare it is so.
	I could try, but I don't know that I have the credentials to do that.
	Suppose he has a line running from his system that has water in it to the carburetor and you unplug that line and the engine shuts off.
	If you went over there yourself and took that hose and pulled it loose and that stopped the engine, you would probably make the reasonable assumption that the source for that engine's power was coming through that line.
	Okay?
	And you could see whether there's any gasoline line coming into that carburetor.
	I could.
	What I wouldn't be sure of is whether there was some other source of hydrogen being introduced at a point where I couldn't see it.
	I mean, there's a lot of things you could worry about.
	I hate to be such a skeptic, but I am.
	I still find that you could do it.
	Well, I could try.
	And maybe I will try, Bob.
	Maybe I will try.
	That'd be wonderful.
	In the meantime, you do have the credentials.
	You have done the experiments.
	In fact, you could probably move from what you're doing now to also trying to create a car that runs on, essentially, water.
	Have you considered that?
	Art, to tell you the truth, I don't have any more of the mechanical ability to make the kind of things that are needed to be made in order to produce that device.
	Now, I have friends that are working on this.
	There are people around the world who are working on hydrogen fuel cells.
	They are able to produce hydrogen in various instances.
	And I'd like to give them additional information about the scalar resonance that they need to learn about.
	I believe it's at 6 kilohertz.
	Oh my!
	That's a critical frequency.
	It's 6 kilohertz.
	You can calculate it from quantum physics.
	But people have to understand that this scalar resonance involves not only the hot water, but also the copper.
	The whole system has to engage in a gauge transformation, as it's called.
	So it's not as simple.
	I mean, if you get this thing figured out just right, it's pretty simple.
	But getting it to work exactly right isn't always that easy.
	Okay, well, again though, you do have, obviously you have the kind of background it takes to get the attention of other scientists, Bob.
	Have you attempted to do that, and if so, what kind of reading do you get?
	If I talk, well, there are a few scientists that listen to me, but they're mostly guerrilla physicists.
	I have a friend across the street here who's a guerrilla physicist.
	That is to say, He's being shunned by the mainstream physics community because his ideas don't necessarily fall in line.
	For instance, this fellow is a general relativist.
	He's an expert in Einstein's general theory of relativity, and he's formulated a possible alternative to the Big Bang hypothesis, but people won't listen.
	For instance, a number of years ago I wrote a paper.
	I spent about six months or a year working on the thing.
	I sent it off to the Astrophysical Journal.
	I said that the total energy of the universe is zero, which kind of makes sense if you want to create a universe from nothing.
	Well, I set the energy equal to zero.
	Well, the editor didn't even send the paper out.
	He said he could see that the universe, the total energy of the universe, is not zero.
	He said he could see that stars are hot.
	But he didn't recognize that energy can take negative forms, too.
	For instance, the attractive force of gravity is a negative energy, is a form of negative energy.
	Okay, so now there's a case I spent a year of my time and, you know, effort and All that and nothing.
	And so there is a, if you mention, for instance, Michio Kaku was on here with you and he, or George Norrie, and Michio Kaku said that free energy is impossible.
	He said he has investors call him up every day and he tells them it's impossible.
	But Dr. Kaku, as fine a man as he is, and I believe he's a very good man and a brilliant physicist, He does not understand that we have ignored the gauge transformations that we know can change the electromagnetic energy of a system.
	Alright, well, you're now talking to, obviously, many credentialed people out there, and you have the opportunity to tell them where to take their experiment and demonstrate exactly what you're talking about.
	And so, you said that that negative energy is, you mentioned 10 kilohertz, was that correct?
	Six kilohertz.
	Six kilohertz.
	There are various frequencies for these scalar resonances.
	And 6 kilohertz is one of those.
	That's also exploited by a fellow named Stephen Mark, who kind of has mysteriously disappeared.
	I don't know what happened to him.
	I tell you, Art, I don't go for these conspiracy theories unless I'm forced to.
	Now, I don't know what happened to the man, but he had a nice little TPU unit, toroidal power unit, that was putting out Hundreds of watts and it was just a little thing and it's not a fake I tell you because I the guy named Jack Dunlap an engineer and very respectable man examined it as did many other people and so he was producing free energy and then I guess around the year 2000 I don't know he just sort of and then he's gone I don't know where he is maybe he's around
	Well, let's look at it for just one moment, Bob, and that is to say, look, we've got large oil companies.
	We all know they rake in billions upon billions, if not trillions of dollars, and so obviously anything that would threaten their existence, the continued drilling, refinement and use of fossil fuels, Would be enough to threaten them in a way that would produce action if they truly felt threatened.
	So I'm not a big conspiracy guy either, but I can see how they would put their foot down in the middle of somebody's neck who was suggesting it could be done.
	Okay, yeah.
	Listen Art, this may be a good time for me to issue a challenge to the world's physics community, all those electrical engineers and physicists out there.
	I would like to know, you know what a photon is, it's an electromagnetic wave.
	Yes.
	Okay, now suppose you have two photons, exactly identical to each other, Except the electric and magnetic fields are 180 degrees out of phase.
	You superpose these two photons, one on top of the other, 180 degrees out of phase.
	The electric fields cancel, and the magnetic fields cancel.
	So, where is the original electromagnetic energy then?
	If there's no electric and magnetic fields, then the electromagnetic energy has gone to zero.
	But if you believe in energy conservation, you believe that energy had to go somewhere.
	Now, where did the energy go?
	I want to know.
	You know, if someone can explain it to me.
	Now, this is without gauge transformations.
	If you put gauge transformations in there, yes, okay, that explains it.
	But those gauge waves are the very waves that physicists don't take into consideration.
	They do and when they evaluate these free energy devices, they do not consider gauge transformations as being part of the system.
	So they say there's only the electromagnetic interaction.
	is necessary to consider and they believe because one physicist said it many, many years
	ago.
	He said that these gauge transformations don't do anything of consequence.
	People ever since have believed him, but he was wrong.
	A brilliant, brilliant physicist by the name of Jackson, David Jackson.
	Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant man, but he made a mistake.
	And ever since, people have followed the party line, if you will, and they believe that electromagnetic
	energy is conserved when it isn't.
	So now, that comes back to scalar waves, scalar electromagnetic weapons.
	It comes back to John Hutchison, when he has his cancelling electromagnetic waves from Tesla coils, what does that do?
	When you cancel electromagnetic, two photons, again, let's go back to that.
	If you cancel two photons, they have two cancelling photons, where does the energy go and what does it do when it gets there?
	Robert, you mentioned a couple of times weapons.
	If there is indeed this form of energy, it's entirely possible the United States government and other governments may have figured it out and may be utilizing it in something that's been weaponized.
	And if that's the case, would it be your view that it's being withheld as a matter of, in quotes, national security?
	And being used, and we're not getting it, and the world is not being relieved of its terrible burdens right now because of somebody's weapon.
	Okay, that's a possibility, Art.
	You could be right.
	I don't know for certain.
	I'm speculating, okay?
	So you could be right.
	It could be that the U.S.
	national security community, maybe Los Alamos or Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Sandia Labs, or one of these national security labs, has knowledge about this.
	Well, you were a staff scientist at Lawrence Berkeley Labs during your tenure there.
	Was there ever a suggestion that something like that was going on?
	No.
	In fact, no.
	And so, I would say it's possible, Art, I think the Russians have developed scalar electro or did develop scalar
	electromagnetic weapons.
	And I've seen an instance, I've seen evidence that they have used them
	in the territorial United States over the skies as a weather modification,
	a form of weather modification. But I don't have any more evidence than that. Dr. Tom Bearden is
	the man who is an expert in that area. Dr. Bearden was one of the persons who
	influenced me early on in this area.
	I don't know if I agree with everything Dr. Bearden says.
	Some of the things that he says, I don't understand.
	I've studied them for hours and hours and hours and I have my computer read to me his articles again and again and I listen and I don't understand them.
	Now maybe he's right.
	I'm not going to say it's nonsense because I don't understand it.
	It could be very much that he's right.
	But I don't understand it all, and I can't say whether it's right or wrong, but he was a colonel.
	He's a retired colonel from the Army, and apparently he somehow gained classified or gained information about these scalar electromagnetic weapons that the Soviets, then the Soviets, now would be the Russians, developed and used and modified the Clouds over the sky of the United States.
	I've seen grid patterns that are very, very hard to explain in any conventional way.
	A lot of people call those chemtrails.
	You mentioned chemtrails earlier.
	Imagine peaks and valleys and lines in the sky.
	I can send you an email with it, but this is definitely not a natural phenomenon and it appears to be some sort of Technology.
	Dr. Bearden says that it's scalar electromagnetic weaponry from the Soviet from then that would be the Soviets and now would be the Russians.
	Could be the Russians at one point, back when they were indeed the Soviets, offered to create a typhoon here in the Pacific in order to relieve some areas that were in very great danger as a result of not having any rain.
	The governments involved didn't take them up on it, but they claimed that from satellite they could create A typhoon and offered to do so for X number of dollars.
	I understand that to be the case.
	Now, I heard from one researcher that they did take the Russians up on that offer.
	And they did.
	Well, I don't know.
	But anyhow, you're definitely right.
	The story goes that the Russians offered to do that.
	Now, I can't say much about, I don't have any classified information and I have very
	little unclassified information on these Soviet or Russian scalar electromagnetic weapons.
	But I do know, but let me finish Art, please.
	I'd love to, but we're coming up on a break.
	So we'll pick it up right where we've left off.
	And I would like to suggest to the audience, if I might, that I'd love to get email from you.
	If you have an opportunity to fire me an email, I am artbell at mindspring.com.
	That's A-R-T-B-E-L-L, lowercase.
	At Minespring, M-I-N-D S-P-R-I-N-G dot com.
	I try to answer all the email that I can.
	If I miss you, I'm terribly sorry, but I'm making my best effort.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Here I am, and that song seems to fit right in.
	Simple minds, complicated things, and it's difficult for people to understand, but I too, along with Dr. Greer and many others, think that there probably is a free energy solution out there, or an energy solution that's going to bail our butts out before we destroy the planet entirely.
	It's a matter of finding it, and then I suppose keeping it away from the people who would See it gone until every drop of oil is sucked from the earth, and we have done as much destruction as we can.
	So it's worth pursuing.
	It certainly is worth pursuing.
	Bob Kuntz is pursuing it, and pretty hard, too.
	Once again, if you'd like to email me, I'd love to get an email from you.
	I'm Art Bell at Minespring.com.
	A-R-T-B-E-L-L at Minespring.com.
	We'll be right back.
	Bomba, welcome back, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, but the clock is what it is, and we have to stop when it says so.
	Okay, that's fine.
	So, go right ahead.
	Let's see, where was I?
	Okay, I issued a challenge to the world's physicists.
	I'd like to know how they explain two photons, two cancelling photons.
	What happens to the electromagnetic energy that's originally in those photons?
	Where does it go?
	And the answer, I believe, and I'm pretty sure it's correct, is that it goes into production of scalar waves.
	But we don't, we in the West, don't know much about scalar waves, unless it's in a classified government program that I know nothing about.
	Now, I do think that the Russians, previously the Soviets, did know quite a bit about scalar electromagnetic radiation based on their knowledge of Nikola Tesla's work.
	So, now I sent to you just now, or a few minutes ago, a picture from Tom Bearden's website that shows, over the coast of California, the effects of scalar electromagnetic waves from putative Soviet devices.
	So, if Dr. Bearden is right, and I believe he's an honest man, a very honest man, Then that's evidence for scalar electromagnetic radiation affecting.
	Okay.
	I haven't seen the photograph yet, but I'm compelled to ask, how do you know that's what it is?
	Well, the choices are not that many.
	Basically, the electromagnetic interaction is the interaction we have engineering capability over.
	We can't really engineer gravity very much.
	We can move dirt around, but it's pretty hard to make waves in the sky moving dirt around.
	The nuclear interaction is short range, and this effect that I'm seeing in the sky over California, in the picture of Dr. Bearden, apparently is the result of a long-range force, and presumably the electromagnetic interaction is involved.
	But I know of no way that the ordinary electromagnetic interaction would produce those waves.
	So I conclude that it is possibly scalar radiation from us.
	Richard in Wisconsin writes to me, or fast blasts me, when two photons disappear, the energy, he says, converts to element 116, which is very unstable.
	Well, no comment.
	No comment.
	All right.
	And then this from Steve in Boulder, Colorado.
	Steve says, what I find is amazing is that Dr. Kuntz, with all his credentials, passion, and claims, has not brought forth any working models himself of Murray's work in electron energy or that of the water fuel cells.
	Only then can he be proven correct.
	Well, that's a good point.
	But I'll tell you, Art, it takes time.
	I started studying this seven years ago.
	Sometimes I do the calculations.
	I work typically 16 hours a day, seven days a week.
	And also, there's a matter of money.
	I have used up most of my life savings doing this.
	And I blew up my Hewlett Packard oscilloscope the other day, and you know, those things aren't cheap.
	And so I blew that out, and I blew up a power supply, and sometimes you get power surges with this stuff that knocks everything out, and it's inexplicable.
	And you go back and you use conventional electrodynamics, and you don't get the right answer, but later on you think, well, maybe I hit something there.
	I hit the gold mine.
	I just didn't know that.
	I knocked out my scope, but actually I learned something from it.
	It takes time.
	Dr. Thomas Henry Moray, well, Stan Myers spent 15 years, developed, got many patents.
	And where's his idea?
	He died in 1997, I think it was.
	So what happens to these ideas?
	And listen, I'll tell you something else.
	Even if you get To the point where you get a patent, that doesn't mean that you're going to make money, that doesn't mean you're going to get recognition, because the U.S.
	government, if it wants to stamp national security on a patent, it's gone.
	That's for sure.
	You can forget it.
	Alright, let's touch on a couple of other things.
	What do you know about HAARP?
	Okay, HAARP is... I'm not an expert on HAARP, but I do believe I know a little something about it.
	It is a phased array system that puts out three or four mega volts of megawatts of power.
	And as a phased array system, I assume they control the various elements of the phased array so they can produce Electromagnetic effects that are localized in space and time in various parts of the world.
	They can produce a little spot maybe a few miles wide over a certain area and thus produce certain kinds of phenomena.
	Basically, I think they're heating the ionosphere and producing ionic effects, plasma-like effects heating the ionosphere.
	Now, as to whether or not that that is, got some nefarious kind of,
	whether or not there's some kind of nefarious activity associated with HAARP, I cannot say for certain,
	but my opinion is that there is no nefarious activity.
	I do believe they're investigating the effects of heating the ionosphere with electromagnetic waves,
	and that could have military weapons application.
	It could have other applications for blocking communication from satellites.
	It could even be used possibly to disable satellites.
	But I don't think that it's being used to control the population, to induce mind control kind of things or anything like that.
	I think it's either benign or semi-benign.
	Well, even those who have built HAARP and are currently experimenting with it acknowledge that certain aspects of it could affect the physiology of human beings.
	Well, I believe that's true, but as to whether or not it's actually being used to do that, I don't know.
	My guess is that it wouldn't be.
	I'm not an expert in it.
	Even the experts, I listen to the experts.
	Nick Begich, I believe you've had him on.
	I listen to him, but there's a lack of technical information that would indicate to me that there is something nefarious.
	My guess is that HAARP is fairly benign.
	It has, I believe, military applications.
	But so does free energy.
	So does almost anything.
	So I would say, my guess is that HAARP is fairly benign.
	These people that think that HAARP is controlling their thoughts and things like that, I think they're mistaken.
	All right, let's move on to something else.
	As you know, I'm a ham radio operator, and in the course of wanting to put up the biggest antenna the world ever saw, for an amateur anyway, I put up 13 towers and a very, very, very great deal of wire.
	It's a double loop, and it's gigantic.
	It's spread out over five acres.
	I have demonstrated to person after person after person that on a clear day...
	That's submarine communications kind of antenna.
	On a clear day, Bob, with no clouds, no wind, nothing going on.
	I can consistently throw a large switch, which I put in because I want to take the antenna to ground when there was a storm around, and I can get a blue arc about a half an inch to an inch long every time I close that switch.
	There's an enormous amount of voltage on that antenna, and even a fair amount of current.
	I don't know where it comes from.
	I've heard various theories, Bob, for example, that there's, at any given moment, lightning everywhere in the world, and that that lightning is somehow, or some of the voltage from that lightning is being conducted through the atmosphere, and that antenna is collecting it.
	I've heard theories suggesting that the rotation of the Earth itself Um, is producing the voltage.
	I've heard all kinds of theories, but I've never heard one that conclusively, in any way, proves what it is.
	I have no idea what it is.
	It was an unwanted side effect, but it's real, and where does it come from, Bob?
	Well, Art, you've got a very interesting question in there.
	Now, this goes back, first let me say that I don't think it's lightning.
	And I don't think it has anything to do with the Earth's rotation.
	It goes back to Nikola Tesla in about 19, I don't know, 05, 10, you know, somewhere in that region.
	Nikola Tesla got a patent for a radiant energy device that did work, that ran a machine.
	And he had an antenna and a mica capacitor.
	Very important that it's mica because, well, but anyhow.
	Mike, a capacitor, then he had a discharge system, a spark gap.
	So he hooked his antenna to this special capacitor.
	The capacitor would charge up to high voltage.
	It would jump over the spark gap.
	It would do some work with the machine.
	And so he was running, he was using that antenna voltage to do work as a source of energy.
	And they call that energy radiant energy and have ever since.
	Now, maybe somebody did it before.
	Nikola Tesla did it, but I don't know of it.
	So anyhow... I believe that Tesla was suggesting that we didn't need to carry electricity and wires that could be transmitted through the air.
	That was what he said, wasn't it?
	That's true, and that is not consistent with most of what modern physics says either.
	Most physicists would say that's impossible.
	Now let me just pause here for a minute.
	I'll get back to the antenna voltage.
	But Nikola Tesla was one of the greatest engineers that ever lived.
	When he did something, it worked.
	Very, very seldom, though, I think, he built something that didn't work.
	He was an extremely careful scientist.
	Now, he went out to Colorado Springs and did experiments out there with this transmission of power through the air.
	Now, I don't think that's quite right to say that he's transmitting power, but let's use that terminology for now.
	So, basically, he did many tests to verify that his ideas were correct.
	Then he came back to the United States to Wardenclyffe in Shoreham, Long Island, and started to build a magnifying transmitter for which he was going to provide power for the whole Earth.
	Now Nikola Tesla was not a crackpot.
	No matter what anybody says, we should be thanking our lucky stars that Nikola Tesla lived, because we have 60 cycles, Because of Nikola Tesla, we have the AC induction motor.
	You know, my refrigerator is running right now.
	What does it run on?
	It has a 60-cycle AC induction motor in it.
	Nikola Tesla had almost a thousand patents.
	He was a brilliant man.
	He did not do things that were dumb.
	And so he was going to produce power to supply the whole world, and that violates many ideas.
	of modern physics, but Nikola Tesla is not using the same laws of physics that we are using in America today.
	Is that what our problem? Is that our problem, Bob? That what we call the laws of physics are simply not being
	looked beyond by the physicists that we have out there right now?
	That's the thing.
	The real hardware guys.
	That's essentially correct.
	We use electrodynamics without gauge transformations.
	But if you want to have free energy, or if you want to have electrogravitic effects, these exotic phenomena, you must include gauge transformations.
	This goes back to Maxwell's equations.
	They were apparently mistranslated.
	Early on, it gets complex, but basically, if you don't have gauge trans... if you don't include scalar waves, which I also call gauge waves, if you don't include gauge transformations, then your electrodynamics is incomplete.
	You cannot describe what happens to two cancelling photons.
	Simple, Art.
	Two cancelling photons.
	What happens to the energy?
	So anyhow, okay, your antenna voltage.
	All right, so we'll get back to that in just one second.
	So if you're talking to another physicist, one locked currently within the laws of so-called laws of physics, you would tell him to look at what specifically?
	To do what specifically?
	What happens in canceling electromagnetic waves?
	Two photons.
	If you don't include gauge transformations, you don't have an answer.
	You have a violation of the laws of physics.
	You have a violation of energy conservation.
	Okay, again, if you have two photons, and you cancel each other, the electric and magnetic fields go to zero.
	Now, if the electric and magnetic fields go to zero, then the electromagnetic energy goes to zero, because the electromagnetic energy is supposedly stored in the electric and magnetic fields.
	Okay.
	How do you verify, how do you prove gauge transformations?
	Well, you know, that's about the only way you can analyze these.
	Well, there are ways to do it.
	I don't know if I can do it right, discuss it right now.
	It's a little complex.
	I think maybe I've already gotten complex enough with some of this, but there are experiments that have been done and can be done, but they haven't been done by the mainstream physicist Because there are some real knuckleheads that are physicists.
	Well, that's okay.
	What I'm asking you to do is you are speaking to some of those knuckleheads right now.
	You're speaking to certainly a lot of the mainstream physics world.
	And I guess I need to... Unfortunately, I don't think the knuckleheads listen to you.
	Oh, don't be... I think perhaps... I think some are.
	And if you were to instruct them on how to proceed experimentally to prove what you're talking about...
	What do you say to them?
	Okay, I would first say that we don't need to do the experiment.
	In the first instance, just tell me what happens to two photons.
	Just think about two cancelling photons and try to explain that without gauge transformations and you'll find that you can't.
	As far as I know, and maybe I'm wrong.
	Art, listen, I make mistakes all the time.
	I've made every mistake that can be made in physics.
	That's how I learned.
	After I made all the, you know, not exactly, but anyhow.
	You know, I make mistakes.
	I'm willing to, if I'm wrong, Art, I'll come on and I'll tell you.
	I'll write you an email.
	I'll let you know.
	But I don't think I am.
	I'm pretty sure I'm right.
	And so... I'm just asking how we prove you're right.
	Well, you do an experiment where there are gates, where you can engineer gauge transformations.
	And you look at what happens, and what happens is basically, in these kinds of experiments, is you generate energy.
	Now, actually, let me just be quite clear about this, Art.
	I believe in energy conservation.
	I'm not saying this to violate these free energy devices.
	Violate energy conservation.
	I use energy conservation.
	I wouldn't know what to do with that energy and momentum conservation.
	But with these experiments, when they gain a unit of 1 unit of energy, they also generate at the same time 1 unit of negative energy.
	So that the total energy is constant.
	You see what I mean?
	Yes, I think I do.
	Energy conservation tells us the energy is constant.
	So if we gain a unit of positive energy, then there's got to be a unit of negative energy produced at the same time.
	It's as simple as it gets.
	Okay, and let us say you could document that.
	You could prove it.
	What would you then have?
	If I could prove that gauge transformations generate energy.
	That's right.
	Then I would have, well, you know, I would have proof for free energy.
	Would you in fact have at that point free energy?
	You would be producing free energy.
	You produce, and you know, listen.
	People, some physicists will say, oh, this is all nonsense.
	OK, listen, this is a serious subject.
	We've got gravely serious problems in this country with our economy.
	No disagreement from me.
	Oh, I know.
	I've heard you speak on the subject, Art.
	So let's be very serious about this.
	Let's don't just dismiss this out of hand and say, oh, that's all nonsense, which some physicists do.
	Not all physicists, but some do.
	We've got to think about this.
	And I tell you something, Dr. Thomas Henry Murray was producing 50,000 watts of power from a tabletop unit.
	Stan Meyer was producing power.
	There are many people.
	But you know, I don't know what happens.
	These people get gobbled up somehow.
	You know, what happens is that Well, they don't get taken seriously, Doctor.
	That's what happens if they were taken seriously.
	We're here at a break point, so hold tight.
	My guest is Dr. Robert Kuntz, and when we come back, what we're going to do is open the phone lines, and if you're a doubter, if you're a skeptic, or if you're one in agreement, we want to hear from you.
	This is a topic so important to America and the world.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Indeed, here I am, and we forgot to return to my antenna as a topic, which we'll do.
	I'll probably never see it again, the way things are going.
	But it is a very, very interesting phenomenon that I can't explain.
	And I've had a lot of knowledgeable people take a look at it, and they just sort of leave shaking their heads.
	It is something coming from apparently nothing.
	There's probably an explanation for it.
	But I certainly don't have it.
	We'll get back to Robert Kuntz in just a moment.
	Briefly, let's go back to the antenna.
	I really meant to do that because I've scratched my head over that for years now.
	And there really is a very, very serious amount of voltage and actually a serious amount of current.
	That comes from that antenna.
	And as I mentioned, it does so on cloudless, beautiful days.
	It does so at times when the electric power, local electric power has been off, so that rules out any coupling that might have occurred from the electric lines.
	In other words, this really is energy coming from someplace, and I've had a lot of suggestions about what it might be, as I mentioned, but none that have been nailed down, and people just leave scratching their heads.
	Any other comments, Doctor?
	Well, Art, you know, we're talking about a possible electro-gravitic interaction.
	Remember that I indicated that these flying saucers Apparently have exploited some sort of electro-gravitic interaction.
	The Bayfield-Brown effect is electro-gravitic.
	Your antenna is stuck up in the air and it's got a lot of copper, I assume.
	And also, what's up in the air, it's got gravitational energy up there.
	And just like if you took a bucket of water and went up five flights, you'd have gravitational energy stored in the water.
	So basically your antenna is coupling, there's an electro-gravitic interaction that's coupling the electric, the gravitational energy into the copper through a special interaction, a scalar interaction, or a gauge transformation, and that's producing rather complicated effects.
	Among them is, I believe, negative mass electrons.
	I believe there are four particles created in what I call a land of zero zero. It's pretty
	complicated but a negative mass electron, a positive mass positron, a negative mass positron, and a
	positive mass electron get created as a quartet. To make a long story short, there's a
	buildup of negative mass electrons on your antenna. But negative mass electrons have never been
	never been looked for, for one thing, but they we don't know if they exist or not.
	I believe they do.
	I strongly believe they do.
	And so I believe that what you're seeing is a combination of factors, among which is negative mass electron buildup.
	Well, Colonel Miller from Kentucky says, Art, I think your electric arc, or the current and voltage, is being generated because your antenna ray is interacting with the magnetic field of Earth.
	NASA conducted a shuttle experiment with a copper cable, and that cable generated a lot of free energy.
	Indeed it did, so much so that it destroyed the cable.
	Actually, there was so much current when they did that experiment that it destroyed the cable.
	Maybe I just have a smaller version of that, but again, that would be, that implies that the Earth's rotation is involved in some way, or the Earth's mass, or the, I don't know.
	I really don't know.
	Let me say this.
	Normally, the current is induced in a conductor when there's a moving magnetic field.
	That's right.
	If you take a magnet and you sweep it past a coil, you'll induce a current.
	That's right.
	But if that antenna is fixed to the ground and the magnetic field moves with the Earth, you're not getting a time-varying magnetic field.
	So that would not be a conventional explanation, in my opinion.
	All right, well just for the record, the center of that antenna, the feed point, is at 100 feet.
	The rest of the antenna, which involves well over a mile of wire, actually two miles because it's double, is at 75 feet on 13 towers, over five acres.
	And it produces, I mean, you know, you would imagine that there'd be a buildup on it.
	But you can actually go to the switch that's designed to go to ground for safety, and you can just keep throwing it and throwing it and throwing it.
	So it's not a slow build-up.
	It's there every time there's a discharge.
	Boom!
	It's there immediately again as strong.
	Now let me say this.
	You say that the spark jumps over an inch, right?
	Oh yeah.
	Well, you know, the breakdown voltage of air is 30,000 volts per inch.
	So we're talking about a 30,000 volt signal there if we're using conventional analysis.
	30,000 volts, that's quite a bit of voltage.
	Yeah, we've looked at it on a scope, and there are both AC and DC components to it, which is also very confusing.
	The AC components could conceivably be, I suppose, coupling.
	We didn't get an opportunity to do that kind of measurement, you know, when the electricity was off in the neighborhood, unfortunately.
	So the AC component could be coupling, I suppose.
	Anyway, let me leave that.
	It's time to turn it over to the audience.
	Let them ask you questions, and believe me, there are a lot of them.
	Samantha in Alabama, you're on with Dr. Kunzai.
	Hi.
	Can you hear me?
	I hear you just fine.
	Go ahead, Samantha.
	All right.
	I was wondering if there was any Well, Samantha, how much technical knowledge do you have?
	Well, she's not here now, but she just requested a site.
	generators. Well, Samantha, how much technical knowledge do you have? Well,
	she's not here now, but she just requested a site. So your site, would it
	be appropriate?
	Presently, I don't have information.
	I can perhaps point you in that direction.
	If Symantec goes to my website and gets my email address and sends me an email, I'll do my best to help her.
	Let's see, there are Zero Point Energy sites, several.
	I could link her up, but look, if you don't have something like an electronics technician's
	ability, maybe a three, like a couple of year associate's degree in electronics or at least
	some mechanical ability and things like that, it's going to be very difficult.
	Now maybe she has that.
	Maybe Samantha has that ability.
	If she does, then maybe she can do it.
	Listen, I'll tell you something, Art.
	I have learned since I woke up, I didn't used to believe in these UFOs and all that.
	In fact, I told a friend of mine they were nonsense not more than 10 years ago.
	I mean, if they were going to show up, they'd come knocking on my door.
	I was a staff scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, where nine Nobel Prizes were won.
	I mean, really.
	They'd tell me right away.
	But anyhow, I have since woken up, and it's a real humbling experience.
	I listen to everybody.
	When someone tells me that a reptilian, they saw a reptilian, I listen.
	Maybe I'm skeptical, but I listen.
	There's nothing like seeing something like you saw to convert you, to change you, to change your life.
	It does do that.
	That occurred to me as well.
	Alright, let's keep moving.
	I said the audience, the audience it is Livermore, California.
	Mike, welcome to the program you're on with Dr. Koontz.
	Oh Art, what a pleasure to talk to you.
	I had a question, but before I go to that, I've got an answer to your question.
	Why would we suppress this?
	Yes.
	Because it wouldn't be to the benefit of the people who control everything.
	I mean, if they want to control us, putting out the free energy would not be to their benefit.
	Now, I'm not a conspiracy theorist or anything like that, but it just makes sense to me.
	But my question was, with this anti-gravity and everything, it really makes sense to me, the guy who did Coral Castle...
	I mean, would he be using this type of energy, this electromagnetic, the capacitors, everything else?
	Okay, that's a very, very good question.
	All right, all right, Doctor.
	Indeed, those big blocks that one person couldn't move, and certainly couldn't move overnight, or at all, were moved.
	It was done.
	That's an excellent question.
	I've studied Lee, let's see, Lee Scalman.
	Ed Lee Scalman was the fellow.
	Now, interestingly enough, Mr. Lee Scalman left behind notes relating to something called a holding magnet.
	And basically, it was an electromagnet.
	If you started it up, It kept current flowing.
	All you have to do is give it a spark and it takes off and it keeps current flowing.
	The magnetic field is maintained.
	A physics student, sorry, a student at Purdue University was taking a course.
	The professor said there can't be these perpetual motion machines.
	He built a Lee Scalman holding magnet.
	He brought it in.
	He had a diode in the series with the magnet.
	The diode lit up.
	The magnetic field was maintained without any external source of power.
	And so that's verification of something that Leedskalnin claimed.
	And it is inconsistent with most of modern physics, unless you include Gates transformations.
	So I would say it is possible that Leedskalnin was using some sort of anti-gravity to do what he was doing.
	It seems reasonable.
	All right, Doctor.
	Quite a few of these, I get these fast blast messages while I'm on the air.
	Ron in Mountain View says, please ask Dr. Hoons, even though you've done it, Doctor, define gauge transformations.
	Okay.
	There's something called the magnetic vector potential and there's something called the scalar electromagnetic potential.
	And those two together form the electromagnetic Potential for a system in a conventional way.
	Now, it turns out that you can make a transformation on those quantities that preserves the original electric and magnetic fields, but which changes the energy.
	So basically, you have a system, let's suppose a current flowing through a conductor, a coil.
	You can change the energy of that system Without changing the electric and magnetic fields.
	That's called a gauge transformation.
	And gauge transformations generate gauge waves.
	And unless my physicists, my fellow physicists, are going to tell me that gauge waves don't have any energy, then you've got to believe that gauge waves carry energy.
	So this is a way to change the energy of an electromagnetic system.
	Now again, let me say this.
	I'm not saying the energy isn't conserved, I'm saying the electromagnetic energy isn't conserved.
	The total energy, if you include gauge waves, energy, is conserved.
	So that would be a very important point.
	I'm not saying that, again, again and again and again, I'm saying that energy is conserved, but electromagnetic energy is not necessarily conserved if there are gauge waves generated.
	Roger in Los Angeles, you're on with Dr. Koontz.
	Hi Art, fantastic segment here on scalar waves, and I have two quick questions.
	The first one is, I used to work with Dr. Hunt at her Bioenergy Fields Foundation, and she used to say in her bioenergy healing research that scalar waves were the basis of all energy healing.
	And some of her research findings with UpLedger Institute were just fascinating.
	So my first question to Dr. Kuhn is, have you seen how scalar wave research might be able to be used in the new paradigm of energy medicine?
	The answer to that is yes.
	Scalar waves, apparently, some kinds of scalar waves, there can be positive and negative energy scalar waves.
	I've done experiments with scalar waves.
	This could be considered to be anecdotal because it's my own personal experience.
	I've created scalar waves in my little lab and I've put Put them, use them to affect my body and they're very positive effects.
	And so, and also let me say that negative mass electrons and negative mass positrons have some tendency to be anti-entropic, which means instead of, the normal laws of physics say that systems tend to move towards higher and higher degrees of order, of disorder.
	Higher and higher degrees of disorder.
	But, with negative mass electrons and negative mass positrons, you can make order.
	So there can be self-organization, so there can be healing that takes place with these kinds of systems, in my opinion.
	Right.
	Well, what Dr. Hutton used to say is that it didn't matter what the frequency was, as long as the healer and healee were both sending frequencies at 180 degrees toward each other.
	Okay, I don't know about energy healing from one person to another.
	I don't know about scalar waves.
	They may exist, they may not.
	I don't know.
	mass and she says these are the scalar waves that is the basis of all energy
	healing. Okay I don't know about energy healing from one person to another I
	don't know about scalar waves they may exist they may not I don't know okay
	but when I'm talking about scalar waves and healing I'm talking about for
	instance using Tesla coils and neon signs I have a 12,000 volt neon sign transformer and I use that to generate scalar waves and other phenomena.
	And so, I can't say for certain one way or another whether it's possible for one person to heal another with scalar waves, and I don't know about the math aspect of what you're saying.
	Well, I think there's one thing that's very interesting, and that's that when you take two frequencies and they meet each other, and I heard you make reference to this tonight, it's very interesting that when these frequencies do meet each other and there's this energy coherence, something happens.
	Perhaps it's what Dr. Flare von Kamano says at NIH.
	She's one of the geneticists.
	She says that she believes that DNA vibration, that DNA changes vibration, but we don't have the fractal mathematics or geometry or understanding how even to device to measure this.
	But when I talk to the Hopi Shaman, they say, ah, science is now catching up to being able to measure etheric energy.
	We're getting out of this electromagnetic, you know, catapult.
	Yeah, it's got us frozen, and we need to branch out.
	Anyway, my second question, Art, can I jump in on my second question?
	All right, very quickly.
	Quickly, I'm a friend of John Hutchinson, and I was very excited to hear you talk a lot about him tonight, Dr. Kuntz.
	John has an interest in moving his lab out of Canada, and I'm a media director, and I'm looking to see if maybe you and Dr. Kuntz and the other scientific community out there might lend their networking support to maybe make this possible. John's got a small lab and I
	think a lot of people know how small it is and it's limited and he's in a residential area.
	Moving it to LA or another area out here in the United States that's close to the media departments that he works
	with, I wanted to know if perhaps you would both be interested in
	lending your networking support to make that come to a really nice pioneering fruition.
	Tell John good luck with immigration.
	Yeah.
	Um, anyway.
	Well let me say this.
	If the Canadian people are as intelligent as they think they are, and they're good people, I love the Canadian people, they would do anything they could to get John Hutchinson set up with his own lab in California with maybe 30, 40, 50 million dollars a year funding.
	He would pay you back so many times over.
	We're talking about anti-gravity materials science.
	He's teleported little pieces of wood into large pieces of aluminum.
	I've seen an 8-inch wrench get bended.
	Cool, would that heat go into you?
	On and on and on and on.
	Please, you Canadians are listening.
	John Hutchinson, some funding to get a lab going and let the guy show you, you're a scientist.
	Now, yes, he's not a conventionally trained physicist.
	He doesn't have a PhD, but man, that guy has brains.
	He, he's a treasure.
	So I would say, you know, keep him in Canada, you Canadians.
	Goodness gracious!
	Also, he's producing free energy.
	He showed me, he gave me the secrets of his free energy cell.
	And I built one, and it works.
	I built seven of them, and one of them worked.
	And, you know, he takes those things, and he can shorten mine for a year, and they can still produce power.
	You say you built seven, and one worked?
	One worked, yeah.
	That's part of the problem.
	Science demands repeatability.
	Well, you know, I mean, even when you build integrated circuits, some percentage are going to fail.
	If I can get one, all I need is one instance of a device that can produce power, and that's all I need.
	For instance, one flying saucer, you know, one good... One flying saucer, that's true.
	You've got one device, though, that works, is that correct?
	Yeah, it was working, and I Started fooling around with it and made it, I was going to prove it, you know?
	Yes.
	Prove how it works.
	So it was working.
	I had enough voltage out of it to produce, to power an LED.
	And so, you know, that convinced me it works.
	John Hutchinson is a genius.
	You people in Canada, oh, you could really make some money, huh, if John Hutchinson was released.
	You know, he can't do his experiments now because, you know, he makes things disappear in other people's apartments and things like that.
	All right, Robert, hold it right there.
	We're at a break point.
	We'll be back in a moment with Robert Kuntz, Dr. Robert Kuntz.
	Very impressive credentials.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Indeed, here I am.
	We're talking with Dr. Robert Kuntz, and indeed he's got very impressive credentials.
	Nuclear physics, PhD in nuclear physics at the University of Maryland, staff scientist at Lawrence Berkeley Labs.
	Then, he saw one of those, and that changed his life, and obviously changed his point of view on a lot of things, and you've been hearing that tonight.
	Doctor, you know a lot of people Uh, like Dr. Greer, as an example, are out searching for the Holy Grail, you know, looking for the real McCoy, the real free energy.
	And, uh, Dr. Greer will come on every now and then, get very excited and say, we've got it!
	We've found it!
	And, uh, and then, uh, perhaps later suggest that, well, darn it, we didn't find it, or we found something wrong with it, or we couldn't verify it, or whatever.
	So, how would you suggest Dr. Greer and others who are looking for the Holy Grail proceed?
	First of all, I would be very careful about making any claims.
	If there is a device that can work and produce energy and do it reliably, And powerfully.
	I do not like these devices where they power the system and then they calculate the power out versus the power in.
	It should be self, excuse me, it should be self-sustaining, if possible.
	That is to say, it shouldn't have a power plug, maybe to get it started, that's okay.
	But, and then I would make sure that I was able to produce that power on demand in a Any given situation.
	I see one of the problems is if you have a delicate system that that's got to be finessed, you can't bring the press in and then, you know, have a flop because they only come once or maybe twice.
	So now, Dr. Thomas Henry Murray in a period of time in the 1920s to the 1950s, Give many, maybe hundreds of demonstrations of his device.
	But the patent office wouldn't give him a patent because they said, where is the energy coming from?
	He didn't know.
	And so they wouldn't give him a patent.
	And the government wasn't interested because they claimed that it was a private sector matter.
	On and on and on.
	And then, you know, as I said before, some of these things, if you get a patent, the government will step in and say, wait, this is a national security issue.
	All right.
	Let's go to San Diego.
	Gil, you're on with Dr. Koontz.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Mr. Bell.
	Thank you for taking my call.
	Certainly.
	You were talking about That's right.
	a Filipino from the, who was working on water, water powered engines a while ago.
	That's right.
	Yeah, his name is Mr. Dingley.
	Would you spell that please?
	It's B-I-N-G-L-E, like bingo.
	Bingo.
	What's his first name?
	Dingley.
	Dingley.
	Yeah.
	What's his first name?
	Do you know?
	I forgot his first name now.
	I'm not sure, but he's a mechanical engineer.
	I met him first time I met him was in I see.
	Okay.
	Tell us more.
	Yeah.
	Well, I met, we were both stopped in a traffic light in Metro Manila in 1977.
	And what caught my attention was the sign behind this car's rear window that says this car runs 100% water.
	100% water so I pulled right up to him and asked him how was that.
	He invited me over to a gas station across the street at the intersection and said he explained it to me that he uses a catalyst and also a high voltage source.
	He popped up the hood and there was this Inside the engine compartment and there's this, he showed me a small cylinder that contains a catalyst.
	Well, he demoed it to me.
	He filled up the tank that he was refilling.
	He filled up the tank with water and he said that initially the engine, upon starting, he would use gasoline and after a few minutes he would switch to water.
	I went back to the tailpipe And he started the engine, okay, now we've got wind fumes coming out.
	And then he said he's now switching to water.
	After a while, the familiar gasoline fumes went away, and there's just heat coming out from the tailpipe.
	I put my eyeglasses on the exhaust, and there was water vapor condensing on the lens.
	Okay, that's wonderful.
	Thank you very much.
	That is remarkable.
	What is your name again?
	Neil.
	Neil.
	Yeah, I met him again in the middle 90s.
	He answered an advertisement because we were doing high voltage ignition systems for cars.
	And he came over and I said, I asked if he still remembered me.
	And yeah, he said yes.
	He was using, at this time, another car also powered by water and he discussed his design further.
	He said he's having problems with a high voltage source.
	He needed a high-continuous high-voltage source for the converter, and what I saw inside the suit was a very primitive high-voltage... Caller, let me interrupt and ask you a question.
	Since you know him, my presumption is that he's still here in Manila.
	Since I happen to be in Manila, I'd very much love to meet him and perhaps invite him over here and have him on the air.
	Sure.
	His last address was in Banco Filipina Village in Las Pinas City in Metro Manila.
	I think he's an alumnus of Mapua Institute of Technology.
	You can stop at school.
	Okay.
	Alright.
	I will pursue it and I'll see what I can do.
	Thank you very much.
	That's fascinating.
	And to sit down with him and actually in detail discuss with him and the audience what he's done.
	Maybe we can get a look at that car.
	Maybe I could get a look at that car.
	I'd really love to see that.
	I would love to see it, too.
	Then you can convince yourself.
	I'm convinced that this fellow is doing what he said he was doing.
	And by the way, to do this, you need high voltage.
	You need, I think, possibly 10,000 volts.
	I'm not exactly sure of what voltage, but you need something in the neighborhood of 6 kilohertz high voltage at 10 kilovolts.
	Something like that.
	All right.
	To my hometown!
	May never see it again.
	Bill in Pahrump, Nevada.
	You're on the air with Dr. Koontz.
	Hi.
	Hi, how you doing?
	And your hometown is a wonderful place, let me tell you that.
	It is indeed.
	We came here for two weeks, two years ago, and haven't left.
	My question has to do with conservation of energy.
	I have always, and I've talked to people who run power plants, and I've talked to physicists and so on.
	I don't understand When they produce more electricity than gets used, what happens to that excess electricity?
	Okay.
	If you have too much demand, you get a brownout.
	So what happens on the other end when you don't have enough demand to use what's generated?
	Okay, that's a good question, actually.
	Well, okay, that's a conventional physics question.
	There are two things here, the unconventional and the conventional.
	If we stick with the conventional, what happens is that they just stop producing so much power.
	They reduce the coal into the steam engines and, you know, the steam turbines and things like that.
	And if there's too much demand, well, they just have to reduce the power.
	They have to reduce the voltage.
	You get a brownout.
	Now, with respect to the unconventional, as far as energy conservation goes, when a free energy device produces one unit of positive energy, it necessarily produces one negative unit of energy if energy is conserved.
	And I believe energy is conserved.
	So if you're conserving energy and you're believing in free energy, and I do, Then you've got to be producing negative energy gauge waves, which are carrying off the energy that has to be accounted for.
	I'm still conserving energy.
	I'm not violating energy conservation.
	Some physicists would say, oh, yeah, yeah, he's violating.
	No, no.
	I believe in energy conservation.
	I use it.
	I couldn't do my work without it.
	All right.
	Brian in Texas, your turn with Dr. Koontz.
	Brian?
	Yes.
	You are.
	Yes.
	How you doing Art?
	How you doing Miss Dr. Koontz?
	Hello.
	Yes, my question is, you were talking earlier on the show about the cannonball that was
	lifted up off the ground and I was wondering if you've heard of anything larger that has
	been lifted up off the ground and levitated and floated around.
	Well there's Coral Castle, but a cannonball is pretty good.
	Anything bigger than that, Doctor?
	Well, I haven't been able to check this out yet, okay?
	Very well.
	But Professor Searle, S-E-R-L, has said that he was able to produce anti-gravitic effects on a larger scale.
	I don't know if that's true or not.
	It could be true.
	I'm not saying it isn't true.
	I'm not saying it is true.
	But that has been reported.
	Other than that, I know of no anti-gravitic effects on a larger scale.
	Well, a cannonball satisfies me, actually.
	Brad in Syracuse, New York.
	You're on with Dr. Koontz.
	Hello Art, it's an honor.
	Dr. Koontz and Art, getting back to your antenna towers, I don't know if you remember the cars of the 50s with the vinyl seats.
	I remember my mom would slide out of them and touch the body of the car and get a shock and come up with adjectives.
	I couldn't believe.
	I wonder if maybe with all the conductivity you have with your towers, if you're picking up just static electricity and causing that arc.
	And I'll take my answer off.
	Okay, if that were the case, and believe me I considered it, the towers of course are, or the antenna I guess I should say is insulated in every case from the towers.
	It would have to be to function as it does.
	If that were the case, if it was simple static electric buildup, then you wouldn't notice, there wouldn't be a steady, you can sit there with the switch and go ch-ch-ch-ch.
	Just that quickly, and you get the same size, giant spark every time.
	So if it was static electricity, you'd have a buildup and then you'd have a discharge and a period of time before it would build up again.
	There is no period of time before it builds up.
	So, no, it's something else.
	Not only that, static charges tend to not allow for much current flow.
	It sounds like you were getting a pretty good spark there.
	We certainly were.
	Well, you know, I'll tell you something.
	That's a fascinating thing, that antenna.
	You should repeat what Tesla did and run a machine off of it.
	It's tempting.
	It's very, very tempting.
	All right.
	Syracuse, New York.
	Well, wait a minute.
	We just did that, didn't we?
	Let's go here to Florida.
	And you're on with Dr. Koontz.
	Good morning.
	Hey, good lord.
	I love your show so much.
	I'm just wondering, do you know how much wattage you're getting from your giant antenna in Nevada?
	No, specifically I don't.
	In fact, in the early times, to be honest with you, I was spending all my time trying to figure out how the hell to get rid of it because it destroyed a couple of very expensive radios that I had.
	So I had to end up with a large device which Actually, literally, kept the antenna on ground all the time.
	RF can bypass that, and so that's what made it usable for me.
	No, I never did a direct test with regard to current.
	I can tell you this, though.
	We burned out a 100 watt bulb.
	Boom!
	Like that.
	That's quite a bit of power.
	Yeah, it's quite a bit of power.
	It's more than I would have expected.
	I would have expected all voltage and little to zero.
	Not zero, but very little current.
	You said the breakdown was approximately over an inch.
	So if that's 30,000 volts and let's suppose there's one amp, that would be 30,000 watts for maybe a second.
	I'm also curious, do you think it's possible the giant triangle you saw was a Dirigible?
	A floating craft?
	Oh, you can't rule it out.
	There are stories about lighter-than-air aircraft that are triangular, and I suppose anything's possible, but... No, no.
	I don't think so.
	This thing was 150 feet, at the most, above me.
	It was massive.
	It was enough that when I saw it, and my late wife saw it, it just... You know, the stars went away, the moon went away.
	It was a clear night in the desert.
	There was absolutely no sound.
	You could hear crickets.
	I've told this story so many times.
	At a quarter mile away or a half mile away.
	And this thing silently moved over us.
	Our mouths dropped.
	We stood there and watched.
	We stopped the car.
	The thing continued on over to the west-northwest.
	Until it finally disappeared.
	And thank heavens, I wasn't the only one who saw it.
	It was seen all over the Prump Valley.
	In fact, it was a newspaper story.
	And the Air Force came back and commented that they indeed had overflown the Prump Valley with a secret mission with a C-130, which I thought was completely... Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
	...completely insulting.
	Those are very noisy aircraft.
	A C-130 would rattle your teeth at 150 feet, and it also would be doing something called flying, which this wasn't.
	Little Rock, Arkansas brings Rick for Dr. Koontz.
	Good morning.
	Hey, Dr. Koontz, Mr. Bell.
	Absolutely, this is the most fascinating to listen to.
	And I understand, the question I have here is, Newton's Law, you know, for every Action, there is an opposite and equal reaction.
	And why can't that apply to energy?
	And I think that's what Dr. Koontz is trying to say, in a way.
	And that makes so much sense to me.
	And I'm not a scientist.
	I'm just a mechanic.
	But what he says makes sense.
	Well, I guess it does.
	It underscores gauge transformations.
	Is that a fair comment, Dr.?
	That's correct.
	Let me just say something.
	It underscores gauge transformations.
	Let me just say something about what this man just said.
	He said, I'm just a mechanic.
	Well, let me tell you something.
	You know, you're just a mechanic, but you're a person who can change the world.
	There are lots of people I've discovered so many times that just ordinary people, maybe a housewife in Nebraska or Colorado just won't let the subject go, whatever it is, and she works on it or he works on it and sticks with it and makes it happen.
	Individuals make things happen.
	People can change the world.
	You can do it.
	Doctor, where does your research go from here?
	Well, I tell you, Art, I pretty much tapped into my life.
	...to the point where I'm wearing clothes with holes in it.
	But, you know, in order to proceed, I've got to raise a little bit of money.
	Okay.
	For some reason, the doctor appears to have just disappeared.
	Raising money, it always really does come down to raising money, doesn't it?
	I'm sure we'll get him back on the line here in a moment.
	I kind of feel sorry for him.
	People who have a life transforming event, as this man has had, and then begin experimentation and trying to look into what they saw, or I guess prove the technology behind what they saw.
	I don't know.
	can get to the point where it becomes all-consuming and in fact all-consuming
	of your money as well. Are you back doctor? Hello there, yes I'm back.
	Okay, so it is all-consuming and apparently it's consumed your finances.
	Is there anywhere to turn? Well I don't know. I was thinking
	about writing to the Department of Energy but you know the atmosphere is so
	hostile against anything associated with free energy that I've been hesitant.
	Now, maybe this will change things.
	Maybe things will change.
	I don't know.
	But so and then I tell you something, there's me and there's some other people like John Hutchison.
	I'm telling the people of Canada, you can make yourself some money.
	You could really, you know, it's going to take a couple of years to get it worked out.
	But if you put help this fella out, It's, you know, I can't... Doctor, would you like to, you don't have to, but if you would like to give out your email address, you could mine for gold.
	Okay, well anyhow, on my website there's my email address, that's drkoons.com, D-O-C-T-O-R-K-O-O-N-T-Z, and my email address is bob, that's complicated, bobkoons at earthlink.net.
	Bob Kuntz at earthlink.net.
	Okay.
	And if anybody does help me, I tell you, I don't have it.
	I'm one of those monk type physicists.
	I don't look for, you know, I just live, as long as I have enough to live on, I'm not looking to get, you know, I'm just, I want to say, I want to see America prosper again.
	I want to go back to the 1950s economically.
	I don't want to see 7 million people out at work.
	We need to have, to be able to drive our cars with no gasoline.
	We need to be able to power a home so that any... Surely would change the world, Doctor.
	Edward in Vancouver, BC.
	You're on with Dr. Koontz.
	Yes, hello.
	We are a smart bunch of people up here in Canada with that person you're talking about.
	And I'd like to say that sympathies to you with your situation with dealing with the government.
	I hope that gets resolved.
	Thank you.
	And okay, my question.
	If you have a moving charge, with an electric charge, and it moves and it changes directions, that is going to emit electrical energy in the form of a field, correct?
	A photon.
	Right.
	Okay, and what is that in every atom?
	A moving electron that circles around the nucleus.
	So I was wondering, where does that energy come from?
	Is it giving off energy, and where does it come from?
	That's an excellent question.
	That's very fundamental to quantum physics.
	electron would it slow down after a while because it kept on giving off this
	energy? That's an excellent question. Now that's very fundamental to
	quantum physics. It has to do with the wave nature of matter. But let me just
	say this, according to conventional theory, the electron in that
	particular case, say you have a hydrogen atom with an electron around a proton,
	that electron is accelerating and ordinarily accelerating charged
	particles emit radiation, photons.
	But in this particular case, the photons are not emitted, and so that electron can circulate around that proton forever and not emit any Known electromagnetic radiation.
	Your question is very good.
	Excellent.
	It is indeed.
	Doctor, we are out of time.
	We've just gone through a long, it's just amazing how quickly talk radio moves.
	You look up at the clock and it's gone.
	So Doctor, thank you for joining us this evening.
	I wish you the very best of luck and perhaps somebody out there, a moneyed person, will see to it that your work continues, perhaps in more comfort.
	Thank you, Art.
	I really appreciate you.
	You're a wonderful fellow and you're a great man.
	Take care.
	Thank you and good night, Doctor.
	All right, well that's it from this, not the desert, but this part of Southeast Asia.
	Quite the opposite, as a matter of fact.
	Any of you have the opportunity to review what I have on the website, CostaCosam.com, I'd appreciate it.
	If you can jot off a note to the President after you've read it, I'd appreciate that.
	And I'll see you, I believe, we're set up for a show on the 26th or so from Southeast Asia.

▲