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Feb. 11, 2007 - Art Bell

02:36:16

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Skinwalker Ranch and Area 51 - George Knapp - Colm Kelleher

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	From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world's time zones, all of them covered amply by this program, Coast to Coast.
	A.M.
	I'm Art Bell, it is my honor and privilege to be escorting you through the second half of the weekend, and what a program it is going to be tonight.
	Colm Culloher from NIDS, connected to Robert Bigelow, is going to be here this evening, along with, now I'm going to start fighting back on this legendary stuff, the legendary George Knapp, CBS affiliate reporter in Las Vegas, the legendary George Knapp.
	He was reporting on Area 51.
	Actually, when we get him on the air, you know, we'll figure that out, how many years ago this has been going on.
	But, you know, it began with Bob Lazar and John Lear and it was just incredible.
	Anyway, the legendary George Knapp.
	We'll be here tonight.
	That'll be a lot of fun.
	Been a while since I've talked to George.
	Listen, we're right in the middle of a free Streamlink weekend.
	Now, what that means is exactly what it says.
	Streamlink is the streaming of this broadcast.
	You can get it for free.
	Till 6 o'clock in the morning, I believe.
	Now, along with that, you can get classic shows, You can download shows.
	I mean, there's all kinds of things that Streamlink allows you.
	So go take a sample.
	It's free.
	Go on up to CostaCoastAM.com, sign up.
	It's free.
	No obligation.
	Maybe they'll send you a follow-up, you know, if you want to join or something like that.
	Otherwise, it's without obligation.
	So if you don't want it, delete it, forget it.
	But Streamlink is way cool and totally worth it.
	So go to coasttocoastam.com right this minute.
	It's free!
	Now the webcam photograph, which also is at coasttocoastam.com right now, is also... it involves, in a peripheral way, the trip we took to Bigelow Aerospace.
	And that's a picture of Erin, my beautiful, quite pregnant wife.
	In front of the helicopter while we were in Las Vegas.
	Now the really prime photographs, the really prime photographs I'm saving because mid-March we're going to have Bob Bigelow on and we're going to have just one hell of a show.
	You're going to see what Bigelow Aerospace is all about.
	We'll post high def photos for you and we're going to talk about where Bigelow Aerospace is going That the U.S.
	government won't be going.
	It's all very interesting.
	Mid-March, talked about a million things privately with Bob, most of which we can discuss on the air.
	Alright, looking at the generally depressing world news not to let us down tonight, Defense Chief rebukes Putin's tough talk.
	Pentagon Chief Robert Gates responded Sunday to Vladimir Putin's assault on U.S.
	foreign policy.
	He didn't like it saying, you know, we're causing wars and stuff.
	By saying, one Cold War is enough, And that he would go to Moscow to try to reduce tensions.
	Gates also sought more allied help in Afghanistan.
	He delivered his first speech as Pentagon chief at a security conference in Germany, then flew to Pakistan to discuss fears of a renewed spring offensive by Taliban fighters in neighboring Afghanistan.
	He arrived in Pakistan's capital Islamabad Monday morning.
	So we really don't need a new Cold War with Moscow, that's for sure.
	This village in upstate New York's Snow Belt gets a lot of snow, typically during the winter.
	What last week?
	Oh, it was the jackpot.
	More than 11 feet of snow.
	11 feet, unofficially.
	Might be an all-time record, actually.
	Before it began to wind down Sunday, persistent streams of squalls fueled by moisture from Lake Ontario during the last week consistently dumped lake effect snow on this western New York region again and again and again.
	As if the Lord were trying to bury it.
	U.S.
	military officials on Sunday accused the highest levels of the Iranian leadership of arming Shiite militants in Iraq with sophisticated armor-piercing roadside bombs that have now killed more than 170 troops from the American-led coalition.
	I'll tell you what, when you begin hearing stories like this, you can begin to imagine a conflict with Iran.
	I think unless something changes, Perhaps in the same way that we began to trespass in Cambodia and Laos, I think that we're going to get involved in Iran.
	I'm sure that unofficially we are already there.
	Pretty sure of that, actually.
	Whether or not we're going to get officially there, I think Is beginning to get in less and less doubt.
	Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said Sunday he does not think that voters have a litmus test on religion, whether evangelical Christianity or his childhood years in a largely Muslim country.
	If your name is Barack, you can expect it, some of that.
	I think the majority of voters know that I'm a member of the United Church of Christ and that I take my faith seriously.
	Harvard University on Sunday named historian Drew Gilpin Faust as its first female president.
	Well, there's some glass shattering, huh?
	Ending a lengthy and secretive search to find a successor to Lawrence Summers and his tumultuous five-year tenure.
	So, a woman!
	How about that?
	High-risk pregnancies are on the rise here in the U.S.
	And they may be more common than now, actually, than at any other time since modern obstetric care became available.
	Why?
	Because more and more 40-something moms are deciding to have babies.
	Epidemics of diabetes, obesity, and high blood pressure are causing pregnancy and birth complications.
	Here's an interesting little note from a listener.
	The weather here in the Eastern Lake Ontario region has gone absolutely mad since Sunday evening.
	My hometown of Mexico, New York, has about 72 inches of snow.
	Now that, of course, is much more by now.
	At times, during the heaviest activity, the snow's been coming down at rates as high as 6 to 7 inches per hour.
	Can you imagine that?
	6 to 7 inches an hour!
	All right, listen, I've got some more things that I want to read here to you, but I'm doing unscreened open lines.
	Now, unscreened means exactly what it says.
	In other words, I am not going to have anybody pick up a line and find out who you are, where you are, and what you want to talk about.
	We're just going to do it cold.
	So, in a moment, I'll give you the numbers and we'll proceed.
	Now, I'm depending on you, before you pick up the phone, to dial that you have something good to say, meaning interesting.
	If not, your tenure will be short, indeed.
	In addition, you must promise to turn your radio down right away.
	The moment you hear me say, hi, you're on the air, That has meaning, and it means you should turn your radio down right away.
	So, that's coming up in just a very few moments.
	Let's break right here, and I'll be right back with more.
	Good Lord, every line is ringing.
	You apparently already know the numbers.
	In a moment, not enough sunlight exposure in pregnant women can lead to their children developing Schizophrenia.
	Wow!
	Vitamin D, the sunshine vitamin, has also been shown to help prevent breast cancer, which would explain why there is more breast cancer among women who work the night shift.
	This would also explain why certain cancers have become more common today when a greater number of people stay indoors all day.
	Now, that would certainly apply to me.
	All but the breast cancer, I suppose.
	I get very little sun.
	I went out today and got... Well, they recommend here that everybody get 10 to 15 minutes of sun a day.
	Now, obviously, too much is not good.
	We all know what that does.
	But at least 10 to 15 minutes of sun.
	Listen to this.
	About 1 in every 150 American children has autism.
	Now, we covered this before, but it's so damn alarming.
	1 in 150.
	Now, this is up from about 1 in, I don't know, 2,500, 5,000.
	It's just a giant jump.
	And why there's so much autism, I have no idea.
	They don't either, meaning the scientists.
	The largest U.S.
	study of childhood autism to date has found that 1 in 150 have the disorder, a higher prevalence than previously I'm seeing in any national estimate the highest rate found in northern New Jersey.
	The autism rate was about 6.6 per thousand in the new study based on data from 2002.
	It was released Thursday by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
	Last year the agency had estimated the rate was about 5.5 in a thousand.
	That's just awful.
	And this is a follow-up to last night, very briefly.
	Over about three decades now, a small lab at Princeton University managed to embarrass university administrators' outrage.
	Nobel Prize laureates entice the support of philanthropists and make headlines around the world with its efforts to prove that thoughts can alter the course of events.
	But sadly, at the end of the month, the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Lab, or PAIR, is going to close its doors.
	Not because of any controversy, but because its founder says it's time.
	The lab has conducted studies on extrasensory perception, telekinesis, and so forth from its cramped quarters in the basement of the university's engineering building since 1979.
	Its equipment is aging, finances dwindling for 28 years.
	We've done what we wanted to do and there's no reason to stay and generate more of the same data.
	That's a quote from the lab's founder.
	Now 76 years of age, Robert John, former dean of Princeton's engineering school and an emeritus professor, says, quote, If people don't believe us, after all the results we've produced, they never will.
	Princeton made no comment whatsoever.
	I would like to thank the professor and all those who worked at Princeton for the fine work they did, and I agree with the professor.
	If they do not believe by now, if they don't look at the results and decide there is something that science might not know, then they're never gonna know.
	No matter how hard SETI's tried to detect ET radio signals, very few have been picked up.
	None have been verified as being alien in origin.
	Are we doing something wrong?
	Or, is nobody out there?
	It may be a matter of math.
	New Scientist magazine reports that according to Erasmus Bork of the Niels Bork Institute
	in Copenhagen, eight probes traveling at a tenth of the speed of light, each one capable
	of launching up to eight sub-probes, would take, oh, say about 100,000 years to explore
	a region of space containing 40,000 stars.
	When he increased the theoretical search to include 260,000 solar systems in our galaxy's habitable zone, he calculated that they'd take about 10 billion years.
	That's 10 billion years to explore just 0.4% of these stars.
	That is three-quarters of the age of the universe.
	In other words, we simply don't have enough time to make a thorough search.
	So, in the meantime, we simply have to hope that they will find us first.
	Or, if you are of faith, you know they have already found us.
	And I've got stories on major UFO sightings in the United Kingdom.
	Actually, we're We're in an interesting time right now.
	We're having what I would certainly call, many others call, a UFO flap.
	All right, here we go!
	Unscreened open lines means you've got to have something of interest to say.
	You've got to get right to the point.
	You've got to turn your radio down when you get through.
	West of the Rockies, 800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 800-825-5033.
	618-825-5, east of the Rockies, 800-825-5033.
	First time callers, we love you.
	Area code 818-501-4721.
	Wildcard line, people.
	818-501-4109.
	And, if you're out of the country, you get hold of the, well, the operator, anyway, and you dial 800-893-0903.
	818-501-4109 and if you're out of the country, you get hold of the, well the operator anyway,
	and you dial 800-893-0903.
	That said, West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
	Welcome.
	Yeah, hi.
	Have a great evening.
	I got a big brother story and something about 2012, if you're interested.
	A big brother?
	Well, sure.
	Well, a few years back, around 75 or so, I was listening to the radio and scanning at nighttime up and down the FM dial, and right near the top of the FM dial, I came across the Morse code.
	And I copied it down and I verified it and verified it over several nights and I went to the library and I checked it out and it's spelt Titan 8.
	Say it again?
	It's spelt Titan 8.
	Titan 8?
	Really?
	Which it's an 8 warhead Titan missile ICBM and when they have trouble or if there's a problem with the system it sends out a radio alert and they're supposed to pick it up and And go fix it.
	Once I'd figured that out, it would have scared the hell out of me.
	Well, it did, and I kept listening to it for weeks and weeks and weeks, and it turned into months, and I never said anything to anybody about it, until one day I was in a coffee shop in New Westminster, BC, and I just happened to mention it to some friends of mine over coffee.
	That night, it was off the air.
	I sure as hell wouldn't want to hear a Titan-8 screaming for help over a period of days, much less weeks and months.
	Titan-8, Titan-8, help!
	I'm in trouble.
	I'm a missile and I'm in trouble.
	You just wouldn't think it would go on that long, would you?
	And I wonder why it would broadcast near the top of the FM dial.
	Now, clearly, Uh, most FM dials, both at the bottom and top of the band, go a little past the official broadcast band.
	So, that could be how he heard it, but that's still, uh, ooh, that's uh, that's kind of freaky.
	Wildcard Line, you are on the air.
	Welcome.
	Hi Art, this is Joe in Santa Rosa.
	Hey Joe.
	I had a question about a show you had about ten years ago with an Area 51 call-in line.
	Okay, you can try.
	I mean, ten years is a long time, buddy.
	I heard a clip on the internet not too long ago where a caller called in claiming he worked at Area 51.
	Yes.
	And after a short while on the phone, all your transmissions went dead.
	Of course.
	Now, fortunately, of course, I remember, you know, it's the infamous Area 51 call, so I remember it very well indeed.
	What is your question?
	I was just wondering, I hadn't heard anything else, and I was wondering if you figured out No, of course not.
	No, of course not. Well, we figured out a couple of things.
	For one, according to the company that was maintaining the satellite that went bonkers,
	the satellite at that very instant began to tumble in space.
	Now, when that occurs, of course, you lose lock.
	In other words, baby, you're off the air.
	When the antenna begins to turn, you're suddenly just off the air.
	Now, it was at least, at the very least, highly coincidental.
	That right in the middle of that fellow's screaming bloody murder about Area 51, that satellite just, you know, satellites just rarely tumble in space, but it chose that exact second to do it, and that's no lie.
	Well, that's interesting.
	Yeah, at least interesting.
	Very, very interesting indeed.
	All right, wildcard line, you're on the air, hello.
	No, I guess you're not.
	That's just noise.
	Let's try it again.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Hello, turn off your radio, please.
	Yes, good morning, Bill.
	My name is Ken, I'm calling from Dallas, Texas, and I want to talk to you about Mel's Hole.
	Mel's Hole, okay.
	Yes, I want to find out, first of all, if you could replay that sound effect that she had from a while back that scared the hell out of everybody.
	I would love to hear it again.
	Second of all, Ferdinand and I are going to be planning on taking a trip all the way up there in the next couple of weeks.
	And we were going to try to do some hiking in that area to find out exactly where this place is at.
	And the theory that Ferdinand came up with was the fact that there's something that's supposed to be so deep.
	You know, how did it transform?
	How did it become so deep?
	That's one of the things that he had a question for.
	Alright, nobody knows why it's so deep.
	Now, in terms, if you're really going to go up there, here's what I recommend.
	Go back to the show about Mel's Hole, either the first or the second program, and somewhere in there, they actually do give the location, because several people located it on Google Earth, and for a while it was blocked out.
	Interestingly, it was blocked out, but they've removed, for whatever reason, that block, probably because we called attention to it here on the air, and that'll help you locate the where.
	When you get there, I want to report from you.
	Now, you're on a terrible cell phone right now, so your audio is just terrible, but I want you to get back to me.
	Anybody who goes to investigate Mel's Hole Assuming that you locate it, and it has been seen from Google Earth, I want to know.
	I mean, I can't even begin to tell you what the fascination for me, and obviously so many others, is about holes in the ground.
	But if anybody knows of any other hole, some virtually endless hole in the ground, oh boy, do I ever want to know about it.
	Would I take a trip And actually investigate?
	I probably would.
	Holes in the ground.
	Why?
	That's a question all by itself.
	Why are they so interesting?
	I'm Art Bell.
	Oh baby, it's a ride alright.
	Jeremy, in Rochester, New York, sent me a fast blast.
	Something you too can do at Coast2CoastAM.com.
	He asks, I was wondering what got you started with Coast2Coast?
	And the answer to that is easy, Jeremy.
	I did a political talk show.
	I can do politics as well as the next.
	For years and years.
	And one night, I got bored.
	Bored to death, Jeremy.
	And I said, there's got to be more to life than politics.
	Night after night after night.
	I used to do the show from one to six in the morning.
	Five nights, no, make that six nights a week.
	And so one day I said, no more.
	And I started, I think the first interview might have been with John Lear.
	We talked UFOs.
	And oh, I'll tell you what, the people who owned that radio station had a You know, one of those fits.
	And everybody else connected to the program had a fit.
	And then when they figured out that so many people apparently were just like me and bored to death with politics, and the ratings came in, well then they all smiled.
	Nothing, you know, succeeds like success.
	So, Jeremy, that's how it happened.
	We'll be right back.
	It is indeed a cruel, harsh world.
	Now, we've unscreened open lines, just let them ring.
	Let it ring until it's answered, and then immediately turn your radio down.
	Cruel har- what do I mean by cruel, hard world?
	Well, the more interesting your call, the more time you're likely to get on the air.
	That's cruel and hard, right?
	Wildcard line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Art!
	How are you?
	This is Joe in L.A.
	I have a question.
	I've been with you guys now three months.
	I'm a relatively new listener, and if you will please inform me.
	What is the kingdom of Nye is my question, and I'll take your answer off the air.
	Thanks, Art.
	All right, here it comes.
	It is Nye County.
	N-Y-E.
	Nye County.
	We're like the second or third largest county in the whole country.
	So that's where it comes from.
	There is a place up the street called the kingdom.
	And a fellow who ran a newspaper here called, and he had a column called, The Kingdom of Nye.
	And very early on, I called him up and said, hey, can I steal that?
	Use it on the air?
	He said, sure.
	So, that's where The Kingdom of Nye comes from, as well as where I come from.
	Nye County, Nevada.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yeah, alright.
	Yes.
	Yes, Adam.
	Green Bay, Wisconsin.
	Yo, Adam.
	Uh, listen.
	The, uh, whole contrails, the, uh, experience.
	You remember those, right?
	Well, of course.
	So, how do we know them, I mean, uh, linked somehow to, uh, all the autistic children that are being born nowadays?
	It's entirely possible.
	We don't know what's causing all this autism and a lot of other difficulties that are mounting up health-wise for Americans and worldwide for that matter.
	So actually those who hated them and watched them called them chemtrails.
	I'm kind of looking at it as an experiment by our government to create a super knowledgeable species which has gone bad.
	Well, it could be that or it could be any number of other things, but I have very few doubts that experiments on Americans, I mean there is a long history and you can look it up on the web if you like, people would be, I certainly was astounded several years ago Somebody recited to me the number of times that the American government has experimented on its own people.
	And I, frankly, at first did not believe it.
	I really didn't believe it.
	But there it was.
	And there is a law, and I can't recall specifically right now which one it is, but there really is a law that allows this to go on.
	And is it still going on?
	I'd take bets on it.
	Well, let's see where to go.
	First time caller line, you are on the air.
	Hi, Art?
	Hi, yes.
	How are you?
	Very well.
	Okay, I'm calling, first of all, I wanted to say how great it is that you share all these stories of Aaron and the kitties.
	A friend of mine, Phil Malie, we both love hearing these things.
	My story is about a wild animal.
	And approximately 10 years ago, my late husband, my cousin, and I went up to the Catoctin Mountain Zoo over near Camp David.
	Right.
	And I had heard that this man and wife come up there.
	They have lions.
	So they come up there on the weekends and everything.
	So when I saw the car near where the cages were, I thought, well, they're there.
	And they were.
	And we're standing there leaning on the railing, and so it was not a moat, but it was ground between the railing we were on and the cage.
	And then all of a sudden a lion comes from around the corner, and I'm looking at him, he's looking at me, and I went, hello!
	I didn't know what else to do!
	Aye, kitty, kitty.
	Yeah, right?
	And you know, he was looking at me and then all... Was he looking at you like meat?
	Sort of, yeah, I would say.
	But the whole thing was, when the man came, the guard, he came over and he said, you all have to leave right now.
	He said he doesn't know he's out of the cage.
	And when he realizes it, Something could happen.
	My husband was still leaning on the rail because he didn't hear what the guy had to say.
	I had to go grab him.
	And we were heading over to where this water was.
	It was really yucky looking water.
	And one of the guards came on the walkie-talkie and I heard him say, if you have to, jump in the water.
	Well, we just kept on walking and it was so exciting and nobody knew an hour later how that lion had gotten out.
	Well, these things happen and generally I think good advice is don't run.
	Now cats, little cats and big cats, react to, well I guess automatically, to something running.
	You know, prey.
	So I think the usual advice is stay very still and if you're going to move, move very, very slowly.
	I remember we made a trip to Africa.
	Ramona and I went to Africa.
	We were in a jeep and we were not more than five or six feet away.
	The real good time to be by lions is the middle of the day, you know, when they're out sunning themselves.
	They're very unlikely to be active and jumping on you.
	But that, you know, the tour guide that we were with said that he had been attacked many times.
	And as you hear that recited and you're looking right into a lion's You know, they're big.
	They're really big cats.
	And if you have cats, and you know what they do, and you can sort of project that behavior onto a big cat and imagine what it would be like, just move very slowly.
	Hi there, West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
	Why, thank you, Art Bell.
	How are you doing today?
	I'm well, sir.
	I'll tell you what, there's a couple different things.
	When you're in the Philippines, when you get back there, you need that moniker.
	That, uh, you know, you know, like, uh, when you're, when you're in Nevada, you know, the kingdom of Nye, there, how about this one?
	From the 19th floor of the tropical rainforest.
	I'm not in a tropical rainforest.
	I'm right in the middle of Manila.
	Manila is sort of a rainforest of high-rise buildings.
	It is a very, very large city.
	Now somebody can look it up for me and I'm sure tell me how large compared to some other
	cities in the world, but I can assure you Manila is a gigantic city.
	It was a serious experience.
	I still own the condominium there, and after we have our baby girl, Asia, we of course will make a trip back and utilize the condo for a while and show off the baby to the family, you know, that kind of thing.
	So, it will probably come and go a little bit when it comes to the Philippines.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yes, it's Kathy from Woodbridge.
	I haven't called you in years.
	Oh my God!
	Kathy, how are you doing?
	I'm still alive.
	I'm okay, Art.
	You and I get along about 99% of the time, but on one of the worst things that happened to this country, that's changed it, that's made it the most important topic to talk about almost 24-7.
	9-11.
	Even though you don't like politics, Art.
	Politics is what has made this world a dangerous place, and 9-11 is all politics.
	Even though you don't want to talk about it.
	No, I'll talk about it.
	Your show actually does pertain to politics, even today.
	Hello?
	Kathy?
	Kathy?
	I'll talk about it.
	I have no problem talking about it.
	What you really mean is, what you really mean is, we don't agree.
	Yeah, well, I think we, I think on certain times we do.
	You know, you know that something is fishy about this whole situation?
	About this war?
	And how we got into it?
	There's a lot of reasons why we might have got into it.
	There's a lot fishy about it.
	Okay.
	Now, there's a story.
	I don't even know if you posted it or Lex posted it or George, but it's about, and it's an old story from Alex Jones' website, about bombs going off in building number seven.
	I don't know if you've read it, but it is an old story.
	And firemen don't lie.
	And a lot of firemen were told to leave and not come back to that building when they started asking questions.
	I read the story.
	I read the story, Kathy.
	Okay, I read it.
	I know.
	And he thought he heard bombs going off in Building 7.
	That's very different than having seen them, or something like that.
	From people having tapes of those first hours and days, how the news changed, and how the news came out, and how it was hushed about the pancake explosion, and how fast they got rid of all that steel, and how it went to Asia, and how it was used very quickly for stainless steel stinks.
	How pieces of people's bodies went over to the island across the Staten Island, and now finding pieces of it and going into forensics.
	Now Art, something is very wrong, and you say that our government would not be behind 3,000 people.
	Art, for crying out loud, it's not our government anymore!
	Okay, all right.
	Kathy, we'll hold it there.
	Look, we're going to have to agree to disagree because you're right.
	I don't believe it.
	I do not believe that our government had any part Of 9-11.
	And that means even any peripheral part.
	I don't for one second believe that and if I did, Kathy, I'd go back to Manila and I'd stay there.
	No, I don't believe that.
	And so, I'm sorry Kathy, we just don't share views on that subject.
	I know the line that Alex Jones and others take.
	But whatever our government does that's wrong, and our government does do things that are wrong, improper, it didn't do that.
	And as I say, if I really honestly believe that, Kathy, I wouldn't be here.
	I would not live in a country that would do that to its own citizens.
	And if you believe that, Kathy, I've got to wonder why you're still here.
	Hmm?
	Airplane fares are quite reasonable right now.
	There are other countries and other places you can go.
	And I'm quite serious when I tell you what I'm telling you.
	If I honestly believed that we had any part in 9-11, and again, let me stress, even a peripheral part, I'd be so gone, Kathy.
	International Line, you are on the air.
	Hello.
	Wow, I'm on the line!
	I'm on the air?
	Yes, you're on the air.
	I'm Bill, William T. Feather here, friend of Danny Brinkley.
	Okay, well, we don't allow last names on the air, buddy, so let's start again with just your first name.
	William.
	Okay, William, welcome.
	Thank you.
	Hey, I've been listening to you since you were in the garage and first started.
	I'm a loyal listener.
	What I want to talk about here is a Native American view on what's happening with oil.
	Okay.
	What is oil?
	What is it?
	The oil is the blood of Mother Earth.
	And as you take the oil out of Mother Earth, it's the same as taking blood out of a human being.
	And also, I'd like to offer a solution to world peace coming from the Native American perspective or the teachings of the peace pipe.
	Okay, and that solution would be?
	That we take all the war policy makers and give them another job and replace them with grandmothers.
	I suppose.
	I wonder if there ever will be world peace.
	The only ones who really utter that are beauty contestants for the most part.
	I don't think we're ever going to have world peace.
	I don't think that human beings, at least at our stage of development, unless there is some sort of great mind expanding change, some gigantic thing that descends on all of us like the hand of God, Let's face it, we are warrior-like people.
	And I mean that of the U.S.
	population as well.
	We are warrior-like people.
	That's all there is to it.
	And in the United States, probably a little more war-like than many others right now.
	A wild card line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Bob from Reno.
	Yo.
	Hi, I have just a question I wanted to ask about one of your favorite topics, time travel.
	Okay, when I was a kid, I had a dream, and I never knew how the dream ended, but the premise of the dream was that I sent out a message, and I said, if time travel was ever invented, please beam your time travel machine into my room on this specific date, and then I can get with the time traveler and travel wherever I want to go.
	And I guess my challenge or my question to you would be, would you ever want to Through the airwaves and so forth, put a challenge forth to say, have a time traveler come visit you at a certain time and then... What an interesting question, yes.
	So I'm wondering if you would, that would be something that you would be interested in doing.
	You know, the first question I would have before time traveling now would be, can I come back?
	How about you?
	Yeah, I would want to come back.
	There's no place like home, as they say.
	You know, maybe it's a one-way trip, and if it was a one-way trip, I guess I've reached a part of my life where, you know, with a child coming, I definitely want to be back, so that would be important.
	Otherwise, you have kind of a cool idea.
	Sure, let me do that.
	If there is a time traveler out there...
	And you're able to appear, and perhaps give me some of the hints and kinks of time travel, if not offering me a ride, as it were.
	Let's pick a date.
	How about June 17th of this year?
	That'd be my birthday.
	What a present, huh?
	So if there's any time traveler out there, and you're able to show up on June 17th, We'll set that date and see what happens.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello, this is Casey from Arkansas.
	Hi, Casey.
	Hi, Art.
	I've never heard you talk about something called cicada, just like the bug cicada.
	It's an eye condition.
	It's an eye condition?
	Yes, and it's something that I've just thought was possibly why some people are able to see things like ghosts And UFOs, because what it is is, it's something that, like an average person when they're watching, it was explained to me that when you're watching a parade go by, your eye has a regular rhythm.
	You watch like a band, and the first group of people go by, everyone's looking at the first row, and then they have a normal rhythm where they look at the next row, and the next row, and the next row.
	Well, people with a condition called cicada, Or other people can get this occasionally and their eyes will just take it on.
	Their eyes flash all around and they see everything, including the sides.
	Everything at once.
	And I think that's how they're able to see things, like cats.
	You know how a cat will look at something and it's like they see a ghost or something?
	Oh, all the time.
	Cats either see something that we do not or They make things up in their little cat brains.
	I'm not sure which it is, but I have watched cats for a very, very long time.
	As you know, I'm very, very much a cat person.
	We have three.
	And by the way, they're all doing well.
	All the little fur bearers are well, including Dolly, who got rather sick.
	And she's very much on the mend and adding pounds.
	And she curls up to me and sleeps with me every single night now.
	The little immigrant dolly that we found on a manila street is now flourishing in the U.S.
	There you have it.
	All right.
	Listen, we're going to take a break.
	When we come back, Colm Kelleher is going to be here, followed by the legend George Knapp in the following hour.
	So it's going to be one whale of a night, and we're going to be talking about the ranch and more.
	From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I'm Art Bell.
	Here I am indeed.
	Steve in Portland, Oregon brings up something that Kathy said, or a follow-up to it really.
	He says, Art, if 9-11 was truly an inside job, real patriots wouldn't leave their country.
	They'd stay and bring the criminals to justice.
	Steve, here's what I'd say.
	If 9-11 was an inside job, it'd be so far gone, baby, that you wouldn't bring anybody to justice and more than likely you'd end up dead.
	Now, that said, Kathy brings up a very good point.
	I'm not afraid to talk about anything.
	And based on that and her challenge, we'll pick a night and we'll talk about 9-11.
	Now I don't need anybody from either side, experts, to be part of that.
	I'd just kind of like to sample the public opinion out there and real unscreened open lines are the way to go.
	Because Well, you just get an absolutely fair sample that way.
	So I'll just pick a night, Kathy, if you're listening, and we'll rock and roll with that a bit.
	All right, listen.
	Coming up now, this hour, Colm Kelleher.
	He's a PhD, so is Dr. Kelleher, really.
	He is a research scientist and author currently in the biotechnology sector.
	Dr. Kelleher is a biochemist.
	With a 20-year research career in cell and molecular biology.
	Following his PhD in biochemistry from the University of Dublin, Trinity College in 1983, Dr. Kelleher worked at the Ontario Cancer Institute, the Terry Fox Cancer Research Laboratory, and the National Jewish Centre for Immunology and Respiratory Medicine.
	Before moving to the biotechnology sector, as a senior research scientist, Dr. Killeher worked as project manager and team leader at a private research institute from 1996 through 2004, using forensic science methodology to unravel scientific anomalies.
	So, in a moment, Colm Killeher.
	Also with us this hour is the legendary George Knapp, who's an eight-time Emmy award-winning journalist, who's reporting on Nevada's infamous Area 51 military base, was selected by UPI, United Press International, as Best Individual Achievement by a Reporter in 1989.
	Other awards include the Associated Press' Mark Twain Award for News Writing, and the Edward R. Murrow Award for Investigative Reporting.
	George is an anchor and reporter just over the hill for the CBS affiliate KLAS-TV, and he also writes a weekly column for a Las Vegas newspaper.
	So, George Knapp and Colm Kalaher, welcome to the program.
	Hey Eric, how you doing?
	Aha!
	Both at the same time.
	George, quickly for you, I billed you as the legendary George Knapp, because people have been doing that to me, calling me legendary, and it feels so... I don't know.
	It makes me feel old.
	Yeah, that's what it does.
	I'd rather be nefarious than legendary.
	Well, to some I'm sure you are nefarious.
	It's great!
	How long, George, since we have spoken?
	Gosh, a couple of years, four or five years.
	At least, yes.
	Welcome back to this neck of the woods, Art.
	It's great to be here, and Colm, welcome to the program.
	Thank you very much, Art.
	It's good to be with you again.
	Okay, so I guess the way it's arranged, you'll be with us for an hour, Colm?
	Is that correct?
	Yes, I've got to go back to work, unfortunately, after the hour.
	Oh, okay.
	All right, well then, I'll try and direct a little more toward you than George in the first hour, but both of you are up for this, because, you know, I want to go back over the ranch.
	I spent a day with Bob Bigelow this last week, and boy, what a day it was.
	I got a tour of the aerospace facility, and Bob talked a little bit In that conversation about the ranch, and I thought that things had calmed down, but according to Bob, it's still going on.
	True?
	Yes, I think that's very true.
	Not only on the ranch, but in the entire area around the ranch.
	You know, as I think listeners probably know, that area of northeastern Utah near Vernal and Roosevelt has been a hotbed for pretty well 50 years.
	And the ranch is right in the middle of that hotbed, so the activity really took off when this family moved on in 1994, and then went through a frenetic series of incidents up until about the year 2000.
	Then it sort of got quiet, but yeah, everything we're hearing is exactly the same as what you were told.
	George, have you been up there investigating, ever?
	Many times.
	I went three times in the past year.
	The last time I was there was in October.
	Mostly what's happened is since the book came out, a lot of people have come out of the woodwork with their own stories about things they've seen up in that area.
	Colm and Bob Bigelow were kind enough to allow me there the first time back in 2002.
	I'd been pestering them because I was seeing the reports from the ranch, although I couldn't tell anybody about it, and it really drove me crazy.
	And they gave me permission to go ahead and can bring a camera to begin work on a documentary
	and i've been back i think ten times now and it is uh... it's just about as weird as it gets
	uh... each time we've gone back we found new witnesses who've who've added new pieces to the puzzle
	uh... but we're no closer to any answers that's for sure do either one of you have any idea why the ranch in fact
	the area that you describe
	is such a hotbed uh... i i i think there is
	hot spot throughout the uh... the world and uh... the united state
	and this one just seems to have been going on for decades if not centuries
	Even if you go back into the Native American legends, and the U tribe is very prominent and right in that area, you can go back, word of mouth, 10 to 15 generations, and it's always the same.
	In fact, I believe, and there's writings from Father Escalante, That document a weird flying object, I think that's going all the way back to the 18th century.
	So, that particular area, for whatever weird reason, has been a hotbed for decades, if not centuries.
	Alright, I've had of course a series of scientists on the program.
	I had one last night, and I asked her about this sort of thing, and it was her opinion That vibrational frequencies cause the human brain to see and experience the kinds of things that go on in the ranch, and of course elsewhere in the world, but that it's entirely going to be explicable and there's nothing weird about it, there are not ghosts, there are not things that move, there are not
	Any of this.
	It's all, she said, in the human brain and a specific vibrational frequency that causes people to see and experience these kinds of things.
	How would you respond to that?
	Well, there's physical evidence.
	There's ample physical evidence at the ranch in particular that nids examined over a period of several years.
	Vibrational frequencies don't carve up cattle.
	Vibrational frequencies don't dig giant chunks of soil hundreds of pounds out of the ground.
	They don't leave tracks on the ground.
	They don't cause odors.
	That's a nice theory, but it doesn't explain what happened at the ranch.
	Not even close.
	One of the famous cases on the ranch happened in March of 1997, when we were called up to the ranch to investigate this 84-pound calf that had been found on the property.
	We had a veterinarian with us.
	He went through all of the pathological findings, did a full necropsy on the animal, And the first thing that he found was this sharp instrument had been used on this animal.
	It was subsequently verified through two forensic labs.
	So, you know, vibrational frequencies, I think, are all very well for the observer who has nothing except observation.
	But, you know, when you start getting physical evidence, as George has just said, I think that vibrational theory begins to Vibrate away.
	Yeah.
	That particular case, Art, was pretty weird.
	It was one of the most dramatic of all the mutilation cases that NIDS ever investigated.
	It was 10 o'clock on a Sunday morning, and the rancher and his wife were out tagging the ears of newborn calves.
	They were maybe 50 yards from their ranch house.
	I mean, it's flat ground, if you've ever seen video of what the property looks like.
	And they tag the ear of this calf, they go another hundred yards or so, and after maybe half an hour, they hear this noise.
	The dog makes a noise, looking back in the direction where this calf had been tagged.
	They see the mother cow sort of dragging its leg, walking around in a circle, obviously upset.
	They go running back there, and this calf had been completely stripped of flesh.
	I mean, all basically that was left was bone and hide.
	In broad daylight, right there in clear sight of where they were, no sound, no tracks, no anything.
	Very strange.
	Yeah, very strange indeed.
	Alright, well, it's the Gorman family, right?
	That's the focus of the book, Skinwalker?
	Yes, that's the name we're using, yes.
	Okay.
	An obvious question is, you know, with even a fraction of this going on, who in their right minds would stay?
	Well, you know, the Gorman family only lasted 18 months on that property.
	I mean, they purchased the place in 1994.
	It had been abandoned for many, many years previous to that.
	They brought their cattle on the property and then essentially all hell broke loose.
	Within the space of 15 to 18 months, they lost Up to 18 of their herd of 80 animals.
	And these were not your normal cattle.
	These were very, very high-end registered animals.
	So, not only did they lose their livelihood, but they were constantly assaulted by these weird phenomena.
	Everything from flying objects to discarnate voices, bizarre animals, poltergeist activity, and then you've got a concession of... Sorry?
	I'm sorry, I interrupted you.
	I was going to just ask, when did NIDS first learn of what was going on at this ranch?
	In May of 1996.
	I think Tom Gorman at that stage had reached, and the family especially, had reached the stage of crisis where they were basically sleeping on the floor together in this small homestead for protection.
	And he began to reach out.
	He started talking to people in the neighborhood.
	Word began to filter out.
	Somebody from the press found out.
	And then Robert Bigelow found out through that.
	The first thing that happened was Robert Bigelow flew up to Vernal and interviewed Tom Gorman.
	And within, I would say, a matter of weeks, it was decided that the Gormans would move off the property.
	The National Institute for Discovery Science, which was Bob Bigelow's organization, that he had formed with mainstream scientists to study
	these anomalies were then moved onto the property. So it happened very,
	very fast summer to fall of 1996.
	Ken, either one of you, and I know both of you are very close to Bob,
	can you tell me what motivates Bob, what makes Bob tick? Why, my God, the man is incredible.
	Not only has he led investigations like this one, but now he's going to space.
	I mean, this is not your average guy.
	What motivates Bob?
	Well, his family has a history of experiences going way back, and they've always had an interest in what we would call paranormal activity.
	And I think when Bob got into a position where he had all the resources he would ever need, he decided he was going to put some of those resources into Resolving some of these mysteries, and he has.
	I would wager to say that he's put more financial support into paranormal UFO type research than any person ever in the history of the world.
	He's a complicated guy, obviously.
	One of the criticisms we've had about the book and about what NIDS was doing up at the ranch is that this must be some sort of a plot by Bob Bigelow to drum up support for some UFO paranormal hotel that he's going to build up there.
	I don't think people have any idea about just how big Bob Bigelow is, and how insignificant something like that would be to him.
	It's ridiculous.
	The other aspect is, somebody who in 1999, as he was walking around the ranch, 1998, began to ruminate on the possibilities of space.
	And then, not only did he create something, but he actually made it happen.
	How many people do we know that own their own private space station that is currently orbiting planet Earth?
	Nobody.
	And that has gone from dream to reality in only seven years.
	He's built an aerospace company from nothing and successfully launched a space station in the space of seven years.
	I mean, that's a testimony to his vision and to his ability to make things happen.
	And I got a very good look at the second satellite that is about to be launched, so it's going to continue.
	If anything, it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
	Bob Bigelow is a very, very complicated man, and I don't fully understand what drives him, but thank God he's there.
	Absolutely.
	All right, well, with regard to the ranch, I know some of the history, but there's an awful lot of new audience out there, and I know they would just love hearing some of the documented on-video things that have occurred on that ranch.
	Well, the real beginning, I think, happened very shortly after we bought the property, as I said, in mid to late 1996.
	The first real burst of activity occurred within about five months of that, and I think the most spectacular was the calf incident that George just described, but that was part of a five or six day continuum of almost continuous happenings.
	Less than 24 hours after that calf was found mutilated on the property, and as George mentioned in broad daylight, The dogs were absolutely going crazy the following night when myself and Tom Gorman and another scientist up there decided to investigate.
	So we hopped into this truck and started going out into the middle of the pasture.
	First thing that the bouncing headlights caught was this large dark shape about 100 yards away on the fence line.
	And then the bouncing headlights picked up this Two bright yellow orbs that were about 15 to 20 feet off the ground.
	What looked like a very large animal perched in the tree.
	All three of us saw it and we could think of nothing else except that calf that had been dismembered essentially about 24 hours previously.
	So we trucked on to about 40 yards from where the tree line was and the closer we got, the larger this animal got in the tree.
	Staring back with these large yellow saucer eyes.
	Tom Gorman got out of the truck and he's a trained marksman.
	Grabbed his hunting rifle and he said, you know, they're not going to get any more of these cattle tonight, was what he said.
	So he ripped off a shot and instantly, it was like the lights went out.
	These two yellow orbs just disappeared.
	Tom was, you know, triumphant.
	He had actually shot the animal.
	And he claimed that it had actually fallen to the ground.
	So we instantly got back into the truck and went right over to the fence line where the animal had fallen.
	This was like 1am in the morning basically.
	We had flashlights, we had video cameras.
	So we spread out along the fence line to search for this wounded animal.
	Then Tom found, he started yelling about 20 yards to my left.
	That it was a huge animal.
	I think it was the dark shape that we had seen on approach that was separate from the animal in the tree.
	Tom let off a couple more shots into the undergrowth.
	He said that he had pretty well shot at close range this large bear-like creature.
	Looked more like a large dog, 400 to 500 pounds.
	So we were crashing through the undergrowth.
	Remember, this was out in the boonies at 1 a.m.
	trying to find these wounded animals or dead animals.
	Not knowing when, you know, something would leap out of the undergrowth at us.
	Yeah.
	So, to cut a long story short, you know, there was snow all over the ground.
	We looked for tracks, we looked for the animals that we were sure had been hit.
	We found two tracks that were reminiscent of large raptor-like claws.
	Very, very large claws, deep in the snow, but nothing else.
	There was absolutely no hint of blood.
	We're no hint of dead animals.
	I mean, that was, for trained mainstream scientists, for having what looked like 400 pound animals to vanish into the ethers, having been shot at very close range by a trained marksman, was kind of our introduction to this whole, what we termed in the book, hunt for the skinwalker.
	It was like chasing these phantoms that one minute were causing serious damage, And at the next minute, they would just vanish into thin air.
	Well, like skin strippers, it sounds like.
	My God, raptors.
	That calls to mind something truly awful.
	All right, we're going to break right here.
	Colm and George, hold tight.
	We'll be right back.
	Colm Kelleher, George, the legendary George Knapp.
	Both my guests right now.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Indeed, here I am.
	Colm Cullohur and George Knapp are both here.
	Colm has the remainder of this hour with us, so we'll kind of bore in on Colm.
	There was an incident that occurred at the ranch that I'd love to have him repeat because it caught my imagination.
	It involved somebody at the ranch with night vision seeing something crawl through a hole that suddenly appeared in midair.
	Perhaps that in a moment.
	You know, Bob Bigelow is a very complex man, and the American people should understand the magnitude of what he's doing for them.
	That said, Colm, there was an incident, wasn't there, in which something was seen to open up.
	Can you describe that?
	Yeah, I think the incident you're talking about happened in August of 97, and that was really the summer when all hell broke loose on the ranch for NIDS people.
	It was like Every time NIDS people were on the ranch, which was all the time practically, there was stuff happening.
	And it was about 2 a.m.
	when we had two observers on this ridge which overlooked a small pasture.
	And the pasture had been sort of an epicenter of all sorts of strange happenings previously.
	So they were staking it out.
	It was 2 a.m., it was getting late, nothing had happened.
	They were beginning to pack up their equipment when one of them noticed this small, dull, yellow light that began to appear on the ground about 200 feet below them, very close to the ground.
	And as they watched it, they could see, you know, it was strange.
	It was getting bigger and bigger.
	It looked like it was just growing, located about three feet off the ground.
	So they thought, well, might as well unpack the equipment again and take a look at this.
	One of the things that NIDS had was they had state-of-the-art equipment, including night vision equipment, and then equipment to measure alpha, beta, gamma, you name it, x-ray equipment.
	So they unpacked the equipment.
	One guy grabbed the night vision binoculars.
	The other guy grabbed a camera with infrared film in it.
	And the guy looking through the night vision equipment Could see, he started describing a three-dimensional, rather than a dull yellow light, this actually was a three-dimensional, brightly lit tunnel.
	And he started describing at the far end of this tunnel that looked like there was movement happening.
	And the other guy was watching this large, about four foot in diameter, dull yellow light.
	He could not see anything three-dimensional.
	The guy noticed movement at the end of the tunnel and then He gradually discerned this shape.
	It looked like a humanoid shape that was crawling towards him through this tunnel of light that was located about four feet off the ground in the middle of nowhere.
	And this creature became clearer and clearer as it got towards the mouth of the tunnel.
	And it looked like a human, a large humanoid creature that was entirely black.
	No features in the face, it was just like a black shadow-like face, heavily muffled, and the creature was literally elbowing and maneuvering along this tunnel of light.
	And finally, it reached the mouth of the tunnel, reached out, struggled onto the ground, stood up, and then vanished into the night.
	Now, in the meanwhile, the guy who had the camera was taking these long exposure Uh, Infrared film, uh, shots.
	But immediately after this creature stood up from the mouth of the tunnel and vanished into the night, um, the diameter of the light started to shrink.
	And within a couple of minutes, it had shrunk almost to nothing and then it was gone.
	So immediately it was gone.
	The first thing these guys thought of was, you know, this thing is coming up the ridge right after us.
	So, you know, they, they've They were listening for maybe 15 minutes.
	They didn't hear anything.
	So eventually got the equipment and clambered down the 200 foot cliff all the way down to where the incident had happened.
	And the first thing that was obvious was a very strong smell of sulfur in the air exactly where it happened.
	And the other thing was there was no sense of no no tracks.
	There was nothing except that strong smell.
	They immediately activated all of this portable instrumentation.
	They searched for anything that might have been left there in terms of residue.
	They checked for radiation.
	There was absolutely nothing visible.
	So after about an hour of reconnoitering, they went back to the command center where there were two other of the researchers who had been stationed further down on the ranch who hadn't seen this incident.
	You know, this was a classic incident that happened on the Skinwalker Ranch where once technology that could see into the infrared was utilized, something became very, very clear because those dull yellow lights were very, very common on the property and this was really the first time that they had been captured in the infrared.
	This night vision technology went very, very deep into the infrared and it was pretty obvious That this activity was not visible to the human eye because the guy with the camera could only see the dull yellow light, whereas the guy with the infrared technology could see an awful lot more.
	Now, I would think then, I'm sorry, I would think then that you'd be using an awful lot of infrared from there on out.
	Yes, pretty, around that same time, a set of surveillance cameras that could see into the infrared were installed On the property, um, on, uh, on telephone poles.
	And, you know, that's, that was, it was 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
	Um, they were rolling, they were monitoring pretty well, everything.
	Um, there was a lot of incidents that happened that were just outside the range of those cameras.
	You know, it was extremely frustrating because every time we pointed the cameras in one direction, Or in multiple directions, stuff would happen off-camera.
	So, it was almost like a cat-and-mouse game.
	I seem to recall there was one incident, I believe they had cameras, finally, I guess in frustration, you had a couple of cameras pointed at each other, each on poles, separated by I don't know how much distance, and something was done.
	I'm recalling a story that Bob relayed to me in one interview about something that was cut, right?
	Yes, that's actually, you're right.
	We had a set of cameras, you know, covering the property, but one of those cameras was focused directly on another set of cameras.
	And for whatever reason, this happened in July of 98, those three cameras suddenly lost power and the whole focus started investigating why.
	And once we reached the pole and found what had happened, It was pretty obvious that something had, with tremendous force, ripped the wiring out of all of the cameras on that pole.
	There was duct tape, layers and layers of duct tape that were binding the wiring that went from the ground into the cameras, the video feed and the electric feed.
	All of that stuff had been ripped off.
	PVC piping anchoring the wiring to the pole had been forcibly ripped off.
	So, you know, something was very angry.
	And was very forceful in dismembering those cameras, but we remembered that we had another camera on another pole that was still running that was directly focused on this damage.
	So, obviously, we ran back to the command center and played back the videotape.
	And this happened about 8.30 at night during the summer, so there was plenty of light left to still see what was I'd dismember these cameras.
	We rolled the videotape and then it went all the way past the 830 timestamp of where we knew the previous cameras had lost power and there was absolutely nothing on the videotape.
	You could see sort of cows in the distance grazing sort of peacefully.
	You could see the pole and you could see the cameras but nothing whatsoever could be seen.
	Now obviously we took the footage back to Las Vegas.
	We got it digitally enhanced.
	We got it blown up.
	We really went the whole route on this.
	And we got it enhanced to the extent where you could see the tiny lights on the three cameras as they lost power.
	You could actually see that on the videotape.
	Wow!
	But you could not see anything about what or who had Completely destroyed those cameras.
	I mean, what had happened, it looked like there was a very, very forceful, brute strength operation that had completely destroyed these cameras.
	And we had caught it on film, but there was nothing on film.
	So that's completely impossible?
	Well, I mean, we went through all of these gaming exercises about, was there any possibility that somebody in, you know, deep camouflage could have crawled along the ground?
	But, I mean, there was sufficient light and there was sufficient granularity on the video, especially when it was blown up, to detect anything close to that telephone pole with the cameras.
	And, you know, we went round the block on this.
	We replayed it hundreds of times.
	We analyzed it up the yin-yang.
	And the bottom line is there was nothing caught on camera.
	But at the same time, you know, there was this tremendous physical force.
	It goes back to your You're a scientist from last night talking about vibrational frequencies.
	These are physical impacts that leave evidence that have nothing to do with vibrational frequencies.
	Yeah.
	Since we have you for only such a short time, Colm, I'm curious, since I've been told that there's recent activity, what kind of recent activity at the ranch or the area?
	Well, I know that there's a lot of witnesses coming out with strange flying objects, balls of light.
	One of the classic things that we're seeing multiple times on the property were these orbs of light, and they may be different colors.
	We saw bright white ones.
	The Gorman family used to see blue ones.
	Red ones caused a lot of damage to cattle.
	Other eyewitnesses have come forward, especially recently around the property, to also claim that there's flying lights in the area.
	We don't know why this activity is continuing or what has triggered it again, but we know that there's a strong discouragement from going anywhere near that property.
	It is under surveillance as we speak.
	And so, you know, trespassing is absolutely out of the question.
	You know, trespassers will be prosecuted.
	Okay.
	Colm, you said it started up again, so there was kind of a lull period.
	When did it begin again?
	Well, this is just hearsay because it's been two years since I've left, but from the feedback that we've got, it started up less than a year ago.
	And, you know, it's not only on the ranch, as I said, a lot of the eyewitnesses that have come forward as a result of reading this book have essentially completely supported all of the activity on the property, but have extended the radius not only on the ranch to the entire area.
	So, this particular area of northeastern Utah has been a hotspot for so long.
	We went through all of the aeromagnetic surveys of the area.
	We were trying to track gravitational anomalies.
	We did an awful lot of footwork to see if there was anything unique about the area.
	We couldn't come up with anything.
	The only rap that I've ever heard on Bob Bigelow and on NIDS is that it keeps things pretty close to their chest.
	Your chest, I guess.
	You're still involved.
	You're still there.
	And I guess, George, you've probably heard this from others, other researchers, that They get a little frustrated because NIDS does keep things to themselves until they've got everything investigated and the final reports in.
	So, at the beginning, when you heard about this ranch, George, I know you've got kind of an in, but did you get in right away or was there a bit of work involved?
	Yeah, it took a while for me to convince both Colm and Bob Bigelow to let me on the property, especially with the television camera.
	And I assured them, look, I'm going to work on this thing, but we'll wait until the time is right To go public with something, because frankly, I mean, this is an ongoing scientific investigation, and I know it's frustrating for people outside of NIDS that they don't know what's going on, but I mean, you don't invite the public in to participate in cancer research or something.
	This entity, this precognitive sentient entity, which is Colonel John Alexander's name for it, it's an interactive process, and people being on the ranch, it affects what goes on there.
	So having trespassers and things of that sort is not something that NIDS wanted to do.
	So yeah, they kept it quiet.
	In addition, what the heck do you tell the world?
	I mean, the problem for scientists like Collum and others is that nothing on this ranch, in the more than 100 incidents that NIDS investigated, is reproducible.
	You know, nothing ever happened the same way twice.
	This thing, this entity, this intelligence, was wily and cagey, almost like Stalking Big Game or something.
	It never did the same thing twice.
	And it seemed to be able to read people's thoughts.
	Well, you know, if you're trying to investigate something like that, and nothing is reproducible, and you're trying to be a reputable scientific organization that interests mainstream scientists into investigating paranormal type activity, You don't want to come forward with something that's half-baked and say, hey, by the way, we had a giant Sasquatch crawl through a tunnel of light, and what do you think about that?
	So at this point, it's a good question, George, and Colm.
	What do you tell the world?
	I haven't read Skinwalker yet, but what essentially did you tell the world about what you conclude is happening there?
	Well, we essentially cataloged all of the, or many of the phenomena that had happened, and then we went through all of the possible explanations.
	You know, the usual cast of characters, we investigated the idea of fraud, we went through the idea of dimensional realities, we went through extraterrestrial visitation, we went through hallucinations, this kind of thing.
	But we deliberately did not draw a conclusion, an absolute firm conclusion, from the research, because, as George mentioned, this has been an ongoing project.
	I left NIDS two years ago, but I know that the research is continuing at a different level.
	But the object is not to draw any specific conclusions, because if we do, I think we can go off on a tangent that could just lead nowhere.
	Okay.
	Did you ever feel that there was a time when you were close to communication with some kind of intelligence or making a breakthrough of some kind that would be documentable and, you know, the smoking gun?
	Yes, we really felt during the summer of 1997 that beginning with that calf incident, right through the summer there was a tremendous amount of activity We were interacting with something.
	It was obvious.
	We had constructed a series of watchtowers that had dogs as biosensors on the ranch.
	We were getting a tremendous amount of visual sighting, and we were interacting with something that was manifesting in many, many different ways, but we definitely had the sense we were interacting.
	And we even went to the extent of You know, attempting to be proactive in interacting with whatever was there, you know, leaving messages out, leaving boxes full of bricks and bricks with different symbols on them.
	There was many, many different attempts to communicate, but the communication never happened on our terms.
	It was always on whatever was on this property.
	We were never able to You know, catch it unaware, so to speak.
	Were you trusted by your neighbors?
	It was a very slow process.
	When we first arrived, we had the reputation as, you know, this was this kind of very wealthy organization of scientific people with, you know, probably government connections, this whole thing.
	So there was a lot of distrust, but I think over time we visited the neighbors many times.
	We talked to them.
	I think over time we did build trust.
	And certainly the immediate neighbors around the ranch all reported almost identical phenomena to what the Gorman family had reported on their property.
	So, you know, the five or six properties that surrounded the ranch were experiencing exactly the same thing.
	So that gave us a tremendous amount of credibility.
	A tremendous amount of credibility.
	Yeah, I guess that word has leaked out in some quarters where the ranch is located, but let's make this appeal right now.
	It's really more than an appeal.
	You said it earlier that trespassers will be prosecuted.
	So if you know where the ranch is, don't go there.
	This is serious scientific work, and it's underway.
	It's still underway right now, right, Collin?
	Yes.
	The ranch is under constant surveillance, and there are people stationed on the property, so it is absolutely not acceptable to trespass on that property.
	All right, Colm, the hour's up.
	That's it.
	Boy, it went that fast.
	Colm, thank you for being here.
	I can't thank you enough for taking the hour and spending it with us.
	Well, thank you so much, Art.
	It's great to connect with you again.
	Well, we'll have to have you back for a whole show.
	Yeah, I'd love to actually.
	Alright, we'll do that.
	Colm, thank you.
	Good night.
	And George, you're coming up next.
	Here I am.
	George Knapp is here.
	And he really is, I was joking about it earlier, but he really is a legend in his own time.
	He is an amazing man who was a mainstream reporter in Las Vegas.
	An investigative, albeit eventually an investigative reporter.
	But quite a guy, and then suddenly, in the way that I did, in the way that I turned Coast from what it was to what it is, George kind of did the same thing.
	It's been a strange, a very strange career track for George.
	We'll talk about all of that and a lot more in a moment.
	A lot of people wouldn't know it, but George and I actually go back quite a ways.
	We've been in meetings that I can't describe with Bob Bigelow and all kinds of interesting things, so we've been at it for a while.
	George, what happened to your career?
	I mean, if you go way back, how in the world did you get from point A to B?
	Well, sort of like you, Art, remember Area 2000?
	Yes, very well.
	That goes back, what, 93?
	It's sort of like with you.
	I mean, I stumbled onto a story about Area 51.
	I approached it the same way I'd approach any other story, and it pretty much changed my life.
	Now, I'm still a mainstream reporter.
	I don't do a lot of UFO stuff.
	There's no prohibition by my employers, but they prefer me to do other things.
	And I do a reasonable job at it here in my hometown.
	But I guess I'll always be known as a UFO reporter because of those stories we did back in 1989.
	May will mark 18 years since those first reports about Area 51, sort of help put it on the map, the whole Lazar stuff.
	There are a lot of parallels to you, Art.
	There are.
	The whole nation didn't hear about Area 51.
	They didn't hear those early reports, George.
	You know, that first one, the first one you did, must have been rough.
	I mean, really rough.
	Well, yeah, and it was amazing how it touched the pulse of the public, the reaction from the public, how much interest there was from just people on the street, just everywhere.
	I mean, the phones rang off the hook, and then other media beat a path to Area 51's door, and I took a lot of grief over it.
	Sure, I still get grief when someone has a problem with me, some politician that I'm going after.
	They'll always whip out the flying saucer, little green men stuff, ha ha ha.
	Sure.
	I don't mind, because I work for the people, the public.
	They want to know about this stuff, so I don't craft my reports for politicians or other journalists.
	No, I can understand why they whip that one out, of course, and it's done to me, but it's a lot easier for me because It's my bread and butter.
	This is all I really do.
	For you, you've got to occasionally switch from very mainstream to Area 51, for example.
	That's a much tougher path for you.
	Yeah, I suppose so.
	But you know, as long as you keep focused and try to approach the topic the same way you would any other news subject, you can't get in that much trouble.
	I mean, you catch some grief here and there from people that wish you ill, but I don't Yeah, I approach it the same way.
	Area 51, is it still there?
	Well, of course it's there.
	It's still a vital base in our national security apparatus.
	It is still as busy as ever, contrary to some erroneous reports.
	The planes leave the Janet Terminal every day and fly out there and they fly back at night.
	The buses still go up that dirt road.
	There are thousands of people there.
	You can see from satellite photos that they've installed new facilities.
	They're expanding, building things underground.
	There was this big story, George, as you know.
	There was a big story that, oh no, what was going on at Area 51 had been moved to somewhere in Utah or somewhere in New Mexico or whatever.
	You're saying it's not true.
	Right.
	I think that guy from Popular Mechanics went up the wrong road, found nobody there, and concluded that Area 51 had somehow shut down.
	And boy was he mistaken.
	I think perhaps the stuff we're talking about, if in fact there were ever any recovered alien vehicles out there, that they probably have been moved somewhere else or stuck in a closet somewhere for the simple reason that so many people still go out there looking for it.
	So if you wanted to test fly that stuff, it would seem you'd have to find a place deeper in the test site or some other base without so much attention.
	From the investigation you did do way back when, is there any doubt in your mind that they were flying craft and testing craft that had been recovered or obtained one way or the other from elsewhere?
	Well, I suppose there will always be some doubt.
	I lean toward that being the case.
	I mean, it was not just Bob Lazar.
	I had more than two dozen people who have worked out there over the years who've told me bits and pieces of the same story, witnesses who've seen these things flying around.
	People who have worked on the program and seen things inside hangars and know that we were taking these things apart to figure out how they worked, not the other way around.
	So I believe that it was there at some point.
	Can I prove it conclusively?
	No.
	If you could go back now and not do those reports and not get involved with Area 51, Bob Lazar, John Lear, the whole thing, if you could just erase it and not do it, would you?
	Oh, no, I'd do the same thing.
	I might do a better job of it, but there's no question that I would do it.
	It's just opened so much up for me, not only as a journalist, but as a human being and opened my eyes to a lot of stuff that I might not have otherwise seen.
	Yeah, I bet.
	All right, now the ranch.
	When you finally did get access to the ranch, did you investigate yourself enough to become a believer that these stories that we were hearing were indeed happening?
	Very much so.
	In part because of the credibility of Bob Bigelow and the people that work with NIDS.
	I mean, these are serious guys.
	They weren't out looking for attention.
	They were trying to investigate this stuff.
	And then, you know, going up there and interviewing witnesses, Talking to neighbors, people who live in the area, researching the history of it.
	You know, people wonder if this is a government psychological warfare campaign or something like that.
	This stuff has been going on in that region before there was a U.S.
	government.
	Father Escalante, who had his sightings and wrote about them in his journal, that was back in 1776.
	Native American traditions say it's been going on a lot longer than that.
	So, you know, it's not a government operation.
	It's there, it's real.
	I've interviewed enough people to To be convinced of that, plus the evidence collected by the folks at NIDS over a seven-year intensive study.
	I mean, that area is the most intensely studied paranormal hotspot in history.
	Any guesses?
	If you had to guess, and I am asking you to guess, what do you think is going on there?
	It's, you know, and this is purely a guess.
	We tried to rule out more things as opposed to coming to a conclusion because there's not enough evidence to demonstrate something Conclusively, but it seems dimensional.
	It seems like this is a portal of some sort.
	The rancher, Tom Gorman, recalled seeing what looked like a sun in the sky, through which objects would enter and leave, and on the other side of this big orange ball, sun-like object, he could see another sky.
	It suggests that maybe there are other worlds out there, a parallel universe, Alternate dimensions.
	I'm not smart enough to be able to figure that stuff out, but as we mentioned in the book, it's sort of consistent with some of the research on the cutting edge of physics and cosmology right now.
	The concept of the multiverse.
	That's right.
	It fits, you know, it fits.
	There's a physicist named Dr. Jack Sarfati, who's a regular listener of this program, who read the book and it sort of light bulb went off.
	It sort of fits with Where modern science is heading about the nature of our reality.
	And it seems like what's going on at the ranch is kind of a learning curve.
	That they're giving us a little bit of rope and dragging us along a bit at a time so that we somehow understand that the reality isn't what it used to be.
	That the world is a much bigger, more mysterious, and more complex place than we ever imagined.
	You carried cameras up there.
	Did you ever catch anything that you could air?
	No.
	Well, we've got stuff that we can air, but if you're asking me, do I ever catch anything anomalous on camera?
	No.
	Yes.
	I do have some of the stuff from NID's archives, the mutilation incidents and tracks and things of that sort.
	We interviewed a lot of witnesses up there.
	We interviewed NID staffers.
	I collected a great deal of material for this documentary that one of these days I'll get finished.
	But nothing like a flying saucer, no.
	My buddy Colm One of the first trips I made up there, my pal Colum, he decides that I have this inherent weirdness quotient that maybe I might make something happen.
	So he takes me out in the middle homestead where a lot of this strange stuff had happened, where that tunnel of light had appeared, where animals had been butchered and others disappeared, where a predator-type object had materialized and scared the bejesus out of everyone.
	It's the middle of the night.
	And he puts me on a chair there and leaves me to see if something comes to get me.
	Now, before this... Yeah, my pal, right?
	Before this, we had done some things that in the past had riled this entity up.
	We got a big earth mover and dug around a lot of dirt.
	That seems to get its attention.
	We built a big fire, made a bunch of noise, tried to get its attention, and then plopped me out on a chair for a while in the middle of nowhere and left me.
	I'd like to tell you that I was brave and I wasn't concerned at all, but I was.
	I mean, it was a scary thing.
	You were like chum in the water.
	The only thing that came to get me were mosquitoes, though, so I'm happy to report.
	Okay, back to Mr. Bigelow for a moment.
	He's quite a guy.
	You know, I get these little messages, I do the program here.
	Ross in West Palm Beach, Florida, said, Art, I'm looking at Mr. Bigelow's website right now, and honestly, Mr. Bigelow reminds me of S.R.
	Hatton, the billionaire in the movie, your favorite movie, mine, Contact, and I've been saying that for years.
	He really does remind me of H.R.
	Hatton.
	How about you?
	That fits.
	You know, I got a tour of his facility out there right from the first day that it was built, and I've been there many times, and he invited us to be there on the morning of the launch.
	And Bob Bigelow had never done a TV interview before.
	I know he's spoken to you many times, and we got him to go on camera, and he was good at it.
	And now we are negotiating to get him on camera to talk about the ranch, and when I can get that nailed down, that'll be a coup.
	Oh, it certainly will be, and quite a story.
	My God, what a story that'll be.
	Well, it's everything.
	It's a paranormal Disneyland, you know.
	It's the UFO stuff of everything from Winnebago-sized UFOs to flying sombreros to the balls of light that Collum talked about.
	It's poltergeist-type stuff.
	It's a laundry list of strange things, and it's a heck of a story for a newsman.
	Boy, it really is.
	There have been sort of offshoots to all of this, and the early stuff involved Bob Lazar, John Lear.
	Now, from today's perspective, as the story has unfolded and bits and pieces have either been confirmed or refuted over the years, I guess I've got to ask, what is your take on the two of them, Bob Lazar and John Lear?
	Well, on Lazar, I know that the world of ufology is pretty made up its mind that Bob is not truthful, and I don't think it's as simple as that.
	Now, there are gaps in his story and things that don't add up.
	For example, I always have said from day one that the weakest part of the story dealt with his lack of academic credentials.
	The schools that he went to say he was never there, and Bob has never gone to any great lengths to prove that he was there.
	However, You know, I lived through this stuff.
	I know the strange things that were happening back there.
	I know how government agencies reacted to the story coming out and the phones were tapped and people were followed around and threats were made back then.
	I know how Los Alamos Lab reacted to my inquiries about his employment.
	I know what happened when he got into legal trouble here.
	And the stories that he told the courts when he was facing prison time.
	I believe him.
	I believe he's telling the story as he knows it.
	That does not mean it is a literal truth, because we both know that games can be played by the folks who run these kinds of programs.
	So, you know, I think there was something out there.
	I think Bob is telling the truth about it.
	I don't exactly know why it all spilled out as it did, but I hope to one day.
	John Lear is also a complicated guy.
	I don't take everything he says literally, but I owe him a debt of gratitude because way back when, when I was starting in this stuff, in fact, he got me to do the first UFO program.
	I had a little talk show called On The Record that we did about a year before I ever met Lazar.
	And it was incredible.
	I put him on that little talk show that nobody watches that aired like 5 o'clock in the morning and had politicians normally on it, and my phone rang off the hook.
	And I wonder, what the heck is this deal?
	I'd always had the same kind of curiosity about UFOs as the next guy, but I had John on again, and the response was tremendous, and I realized, this is something I've got to look into.
	This is something that touches the pulse of the public.
	So, I owe John a debt of gratitude in that sense, and he provided me with a great deal of information in the beginning.
	I do not take everything he says, though, literally.
	That makes two of us.
	I agree with you on all counts.
	I have interviewed now, I think Bob Lazar, two or three times.
	And I'll tell you something, George, when you get somebody with a wild story, you interview them once, there it is.
	And generally the second and third time you interview them, the story grows.
	And that never happens with Bob.
	Bob's story is so consistent, his presentation of it, Is so calm, collected, and the story doesn't grow.
	It's just what it is.
	And I believe he's telling the truth.
	Well, and plus the fact that he doesn't care whether people believe him or not.
	That's right.
	He doesn't go out of his way to seek attention about this stuff.
	You don't want to believe him?
	Fine.
	He has nothing against it.
	No, in fact, actually quite the opposite.
	He's hard to get to come on the radio at all.
	It's kind of like, you know, I've told my story.
	That's it.
	I'd rather not come on again, but you can sort of drag him on, and when you do, you get the same story.
	He is so consistent.
	That's right.
	I had a chance to fill in for you, Art, when you were in the Philippines and had Bob on the show, and it was like pulling teeth to get him to do it, but once you get him there and get him rolling, it's good stuff and it's the same stuff that you heard, well, almost 18 years ago.
	Do you believe That they took Element 115 out of Area 51.
	Do you think that happened?
	That Bob and or cohorts did?
	Yeah, I do believe it.
	Yeah, because I saw it.
	I saw it while it was in a leaden container that was at his house for a time period.
	I saw some experiments they did with what they call a cloud chamber, how this thing sort of bent light.
	Oh, oh, oh, I had no idea you'd seen it.
	Yeah.
	When Bob thought he was going to be, I probably shouldn't say this, but I'll go ahead, when Bob thought he was going to be taken out, he had this particle accelerator in his house, and he had this container with the 115 in it right in front of it, and he was ready to flip a switch and Say goodbye to Las Vegas, I think.
	I don't know if that was a dramatic gesture or what it was, but thank God he didn't do it.
	I've never heard this!
	Yeah, well it's not a pretty picture.
	I've really made some effort over the years, I guess obviously not enough effort to find that stuff, because it's obtainable.
	I think it's obtainable.
	There was a movie in which they called something like that unobtainable.
	It is obtainable.
	So you actually, now again, you actually saw this stuff, you saw some of the experiments.
	This is really important.
	I did.
	They had it in a lead cased disc shaped container.
	They also at one point had done, like I said, these experiments with this cloud chamber
	where it appeared to bend the smoke that was floating around inside this cloud chamber.
	I couldn't figure out how they did it.
	I'm not a scientific expert.
	I guess they could have pulled the wool over my eyes, but they were doing these experiments
	for themselves, Bob, and some of his cohorts, and having fun with it.
	Yeah, but see, you know, this is doubted.
	This is one of the parts of the story very much doubted by many, and so you just sort
	of put a piece of the puzzle in the truth area that frankly I wasn't all that sure of.
	So, wow.
	Well, you know, Bob, it said they had several hundred pounds of this stuff up there, and of course the scientific community scoffs at that.
	When Bob first said they had 115 up there, 115 officially did not exist.
	It does now, although the stuff that was synthesized lasted only a few microseconds and does not sound like what Bob described.
	Well, he sticks to the story that This would be a different isotope.
	You've got to mix different stuff in there for it to stabilize as he saw it.
	Wow.
	Do you know what became of the 115 that Bob had?
	Yeah.
	Yes, I do.
	Proceed.
	Well, I don't think I can tell you that.
	We can talk about it off the air, Art, but I still have sort of a plan in mind.
	It's going to be difficult, though, so maybe we can do that together.
	So the 115 continues to be in existence.
	Yeah, the interesting thing was all the folks who made fun of Bob for that stuff didn't realize that there's this heavy ion research lab in Germany that was calling him up all the time asking for suggestions and looking for guidance and how they could eventually make the stuff, and they have.
	Now they've made it.
	Oh my god.
	Alright, we're breaking.
	We'll be right back.
	This is Coast.
	I do live among the creatures of the night.
	My guest is George Knapp.
	Colm Cullohur was here in the first hour.
	George is a institution within the reach of the CBS affiliate here in Las Vegas, absolutely an institution, actually a legend, and he just delivered a bit of serious breaking news.
	We'll be right back.
	All right, I'm going to leave the Area 51-115 part of it for a future conversation.
	I'm going to ask you, George, how much you know that you have not yet reported on that you keep to yourself?
	I mean, is there a lot of stuff that you know that you can't or won't talk about?
	In regard to 51?
	Or any of this area.
	Well, there are some details about that particular story, personal stuff that has not come out.
	On the subject of 115, by the way, Art did, there is a, in the second series of UFO stories that I did in 1990, there is a brief snippet of video of the container, and it just isn't passing.
	I don't make any reference to it.
	It's just sort of a little inside joke.
	So there's some of that stuff, yeah.
	There is some stuff about the ranch that has not come out.
	You know, Collum and I had a debate about it as we're working on the book of how much to include, because some of the things just get so far out there that we worried.
	It was, you know, essentially it's something for everyone to hate.
	It just gets so, it almost becomes ridiculous at a point.
	And we debated about whether to leave some of it out.
	We tried not to, only because, you know, if we censor ourselves Um, because we're worried about looking silly.
	We're not doing a very good job at telling a story.
	There are bits and pieces that have not come out, but I think they eventually will.
	Okay.
	Lee in Wasilla, Alaska says, Hey Art, just signed up for Streamlink.
	Love it.
	Good plug, I guess.
	First, fast blast.
	Question about the Gorman Ranch.
	How much do you think the federal government knows about what goes on there?
	How much have they tried to find out?
	Have you had people poking their nose that you think are government types around the ranch?
	Yeah, they've been there since the beginning.
	Tom Gorman had numerous sightings of these folks on the perimeter of the property.
	There have been a lot of flyovers, things of that sort.
	My most recent trip, I found a guy, a rancher, who was a friend of Gorman's and wanted to buy the property himself.
	They had some investments together, so they're people who know each other real well.
	He'd been on the property, saw some of these objects floating around, had his own experiences.
	He was visited In the in the height of the activity, he got visited by a guy from from the U.S.
	Navy.
	And I thought, well, you know, this story is not going to go anywhere as I'm interviewing him about this guy asking questions about what's really going on on the ranch.
	And then he whipped out a business card and he gave me the guy's business card.
	So I wrote all that stuff down.
	He's a real person.
	I'm not going to give the name just yet.
	I can tell you tell it to you privately, but I'm I'm going to track the guy down and And see if I can get him to tell me who the heck he was working for.
	Now, the question arises, I suppose, is the government there monitoring what was going on, or are they causing it?
	And I think Tom Gorman, the rancher, for a lot of the time he was there, thought it was some sort of a military operation, that the government was doing this, trying to, for some reason, drive him off the property.
	That's not the conclusion we reached.
	I mean, because some of the stuff that happened It's just not something that humans can do.
	You know that the scariest stuff, not the monsters, not the UFOs, the scariest stuff to me were the more mundane things that happened on the property.
	And this I can't imagine some Delta Force Commando doing.
	For example, the mom goes to town, she buys a week's worth of groceries, comes home, takes all the groceries out of the bags, puts it in the cupboard, goes to the bathroom, comes back, and all the groceries are back in the bag.
	Or she would, every morning she'd take a shower, she locks the door, she puts her towel and her hairbrush on the cabinet, she would get out of the shower and they're gone.
	And she'd find like the hairbrush in the freezer or, you know, weird little stuff like that that just makes the hair on my arm raise up.
	And it's the kind of thing that I don't see a commando force or military ops doing that sort of thing.
	No, I don't think so.
	Although, you know, you just have to wonder if... I don't know.
	I guess it would be a way of diverting attention if they could accomplish something like that.
	But as you point out, that kind of thing, no.
	Plus the fact that it's been going on for so long.
	I mean, the military isn't responsible for the UFOs that were flying around there 50 or 100 years ago.
	That's right.
	Alright, your reports, as much as anything else in the world on Area 51, have caused, you know, I get these calls all the time, Art, I'm gonna go to Area 51, I'm gonna take some friends of mine, we're gonna crash and get our way into Area 51.
	Do you have any advice for these folks that think they're gonna crash their way into Area 51?
	Don't try it.
	You're out of your mind.
	I mean, it is a secure location.
	A lot of people have tried that.
	They get in trouble.
	They get caught.
	They have sensors all around the facility.
	I've heard bits and pieces of stories of people who have tried.
	I only know of one that got in, and that was this guy who walked all the way across the test site from the other side.
	Looking for evidence that the 49ers had traveled across Papoose Lake, and eventually he found it, and he managed to evade all that.
	He's dying of cancer now, perhaps from radiation exposure while he was out there, but he's the only one I know that's ever managed to do it.
	I really strongly advise against that sort of thing.
	I remember working for KDWN in Las Vegas, George, during the years they were still doing the tests, and we'd go on the air and say, There's going to be a test at such-and-such.
	We're now warning people on high buildings and precarious locations to get down.
	And then, of course, there would be a nuclear-induced earthquake.
	So that went on for years and years and years.
	Do you know anything at all about how dangerous it still might be to go trekking across that ground?
	Well, there are hot spots out there.
	I think there are radioactive waste sites, as well, that you can see on test site maps.
	I mean, they map it out and spell it out pretty clearly.
	I think most of the above-ground tests, those areas are pretty safe, but there are bad spots out there.
	There's no question about it.
	Plus, they're testing all sorts of other things.
	You know, they have different programs that they're trying to find a use for the test site.
	Materials programs, chemicals, things of that sort.
	That goes on out there, and there's dangerous stuff.
	I mean, it's a national security installation for a reason.
	I'm sure.
	Do you have any insight?
	Are you able, for example, to occasionally... Well, because you've been on this story for so many years, even when you're not on it, you're on it, and I would imagine that an Area 51 employee who wanted to talk would find you.
	Have they?
	Sure.
	More than two dozen of them over the years.
	Some of them I did not find credible, but the two dozen I'm talking about are people who I did find credible and who had little bits and pieces and weren't trying to make more of it than they should.
	Sure, they find me on occasion.
	It's been a while since any have come forward.
	That program, like I said, I can't imagine that anything is still out there, and I suspect that they may think that I'm monitored in some way, and if they had information and wanted to come forward, I might think twice about it, but yeah, I get them.
	You probably are monitored.
	I don't doubt it.
	For a while, I certainly was, because some of the guys who were following me around for a while told me about it years later, so I'm not sure that they still tune in, but maybe.
	Maybe they're listening to all of us.
	I'm sure they listen to this program.
	I've assumed for years that my phones were tapped.
	And I still assume that.
	I just assume it.
	And I'm sure yours were, but you actually talked to people who had been assigned to follow you?
	Yeah, they sort of laughed about it.
	This was six or seven years after the Lazar stuff sort of peak.
	Well, if the Lazar story was pure fabrication, if the Lear stuff was complete fabrication, then why assign anybody at all from the government to follow you?
	Yeah, it's curious.
	You know, the phones, there was clear evidence that the phones were being monitored at the TV station, and it really bothered me at the time.
	But I had six different people who called, offering to give me bits and pieces of information who, right after it, were visited by various entities and told to shut the hell up.
	And I verified those.
	One of them even used to work for the TV station.
	He had been at 51 and offered to give me an interview With his face blacked out and the very next morning he's followed to work by guys speaking into telephones and microphones and stuff and followed home and he got scared.
	I had a lady who works for the local court system who had previously been a secretary for a test site contractor, one of the big companies out there, who said that she had transcribed this meeting where they discussed crashed saucers, recovered disks and bodies, And she, through a third party, a police officer, had agreed to meet with me and tell me the story.
	And the very next day, after we had our initial phone conversation, she gets a visit from these two guys, supposedly from her former employer, who first of all reminded her that she still was under some sort of security restrictions.
	And then they said, we know that you travel back and forth to see your daughter in Los Angeles, and that she comes here.
	We'd hate to see an accident happen to either one of you.
	Well, she was petrified.
	Yeah, of course.
	And like I said, that happened six times in a row and I don't think it's a coincidence.
	Now, I know there are signs in the area that say lethal force, I guess there are still signs, saying lethal force can be used if you go beyond this point.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Do you think that for somebody who might want to tell a tale, the government is prepared to use lethal force no matter where it needs to be applied?
	I don't think so.
	I mean, they've had so many intrusions out there.
	And you will recall that, you know, at the edge of the base is 11, 12 miles from the main facilities itself.
	You'd have to, you know, so they have a lot of leeway there.
	There's a big buffer zone and they know you're there.
	So it's, they don't need to shoot you as soon as you cross the border.
	And mostly what they do is detain people and then call the Lincoln County sheriffs and haul you away.
	I've heard the wild stories about shooting out tires and things of that sort.
	I've seen video that they will buzz you.
	They've buzzed me in helicopters and will chase you out of there if it comes to it.
	But I don't think they'd shoot you unless they really had to and you were Barreling along in your Winnebago intent on getting out on the flight line or something.
	Right, but they do have that official authorization.
	Oh, they do.
	Yeah, it's written, I don't know what the U.S.
	code is, but it's written right there on the warning signs all over the base.
	Would you say you're convinced or close to convinced that at one time they had UFOs, they had alien craft there?
	Yeah, I think so.
	I think they had something that looks like it.
	And as I said, you know, enough of the people, in addition to Lazar, have said that we were taking them apart to figure out how they worked.
	And it makes a lot of sense on another level that if, in fact, there is recovered technology like that, and of course, in ufology, there are many, many stories about that sort of thing.
	Some of them very well documented.
	The Roswell case coming to mind.
	If, in fact, you had that stuff, then Area 51 would be a logical choice where you would take it.
	Sure.
	You know, now, as a result of the stories and the coverage you've given it and I've given it, you know, there are still thousands of people every year who make the trek out into the desert to see whatever is flying around out there.
	You know, people have suggested, well, maybe this is disinformation to divert attention away from something else that was flying around out there.
	Well, if so, then it's been a miserable failure because it has attracted far more attention, the UFO stories, Than they ever could have possibly imagined.
	I mean, every major news organization in the world has been there.
	You can't hardly turn on the television without an Area 51 special airing at some time of the day or night.
	And as I said, people are still going out there.
	So if they didn't want attention for something they had going on out there, that was a bad call.
	I had quite a number of interviews.
	I was lucky to have interviewed Colonel Corso a number of times before his death.
	Now, he maintained that as a result of Roswell, there was a lot of recovery.
	There was recovery of all kinds of technical stuff that was slowly then, in fact it was his job, to filter this stuff into U.S.
	industry in a quiet kind of way.
	Do you buy into that?
	Well, I do.
	I met Colonel Corso in, I think, 1992, which was, you know, five years before the Roswell anniversary, five years before the rest of the world heard about him.
	We had a deal for him to come out here, and I was going to interview him on camera, and that didn't happen.
	A couple of years later, I told Bob Bigelow about that story, and he arranged to go back and meet Corso and to hear his story.
	I have a copy of his original manuscript, which is far different from what eventually was published.
	And, you know, we checked him out.
	We did a lot of legwork to find out that he was who he said he was, that he worked where he claimed to work, and that it was entirely possible, and supported by, I think, the memoirs of his commanding officer, General Trudeau, that this really did happen.
	I know that there are problems that people have with, subsequently, what happened to the material, and how things like the computer chips and fiber optics developed, and who should get the credit.
	I'm not going to jump into that, I just don't know enough about it, but I find Colonel Corso, I found him to be honorable and believable, and if in fact that stuff happened, and if our government had it, the military had it, then it would have ended up at Area 51 eventually, that would be my guess.
	Okay, you said the manuscript was substantially different.
	Can you document any ways that are important for us?
	Not quite as ambitious in its scope in claiming the different technologies that we know so well today that all of them developed directly from recovered stuff from crash sites.
	That's the main thing.
	It just wasn't quite as expansive and I did not find that Colonel Corso Was quite the dashing swashbuckler that he became in later years.
	It just seemed a lot more ambitious when it finally came out.
	Now Bill Burns, who has been on your show many times, I find him to be a very credible guy.
	He's the one to put these questions to because he knows a lot more about it.
	But like I said, it was a much more modest version, the one I read.
	Okay.
	Next to Roswell, and certainly in modern times, the Phoenix Lights close by to us.
	In fact, we actually had sort of an offshoot sighting in Las Vegas, as you well know, from the Phoenix Lights.
	Seems to be the most modern, big occurrence.
	You looked into the Phoenix Lights, obviously.
	What did you conclude?
	Well, I looked into it somewhat.
	I would hate to be considered an expert on it.
	I looked at it somewhat, and I don't know.
	I really can't tell.
	I know that those videos don't look like flares to me.
	They don't operate like flares.
	I think the military really screwed up in their explanation for this thing, first by saying nothing and then coming up with this lame excuse about training operations and exercises.
	I don't think those look like training exercises to me, the videos I've seen.
	I think it was something else, whether it's from way out there, I don't know, or whether it's some secret military plane.
	I mean, people are seeing a lot of these giant black triangles all over the country.
	NIDS did an excellent study on that, by the way, before the operation sort of faded, but it sounds to me like we've got something like that.
	We, as you know, I saw that triangle, I saw it so close, George, I could have thrown a rock at the damn thing.
	It came directly over my head, and that of Ramona, and then just sort of kept going, floating across the valley.
	It certainly wasn't flying, it was floating, it's real, whatever it is.
	Do you have any insight on these triangles?
	Well, it seems to be some sort of a weapons platform, an observatory platform of some sort.
	You know, one of the stories I had heard from some intelligence folks is that it's basically sucking up data.
	That it flies over and sucks up computer records and phone records and intercepts all kinds of electronic communications and just sucks it up and analyzes it.
	That's one version.
	I can't tell you if that's true or not, but it would seem to me it makes a lot of sense.
	I mean, these things have flown slowly over American cities If it's a secret project, that doesn't seem very smart to it exposed to that kind of thing.
	There are trajectories that have been analyzed by NIDS that show sort of the most common routes for these things involved air routes between different military bases, Air Force bases.
	So, nothing definitive, but I suspect we've got something like this.
	Doesn't mean all the ones that we see like this are ours.
	Well, what I saw wasn't flying.
	The only explanation could be it was a lighter-than-air craft of some sort.
	There was no noise.
	It was going so slowly.
	It must have been doing 30, 35 miles an hour at the most, maybe less.
	And no noise, big, metallic-looking, not flying.
	I mean, you've got to put enough air under something for lift.
	It wasn't doing that.
	It was floating.
	So either it was lighter than air, Or it was defying gravity.
	I have no idea which, but it was doing that.
	Well, you know, there is a paper trail of our military requesting those, exactly, a craft just like that for transport or whatever, asking that these things be developed.
	Now, whether they have, I don't think there's a smoking gun on that, but it would make sense that we might want something like that.
	Now, does it mean that, you know, because some of these things float, as you described, but I've also heard descriptions of them floating for one minute and then zoom, taken off in the next.
	That's right.
	Yeah.
	I really don't know what to make of it.
	All right.
	We've covered a lot of ground.
	When we get back from the break, which is rapidly arriving, we're going to open the phone lines for George Knapp.
	Now, please, folks, if you can, make your questions relevant.
	They can cover an awful lot of territory, because that's exactly what we've done.
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I'm Art Bell.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Here I am.
	George Knapp is my guest.
	He is fully an institution and a legend.
	I should laugh about that, but I won't because he really is.
	He's been in Las Vegas for as long as I can remember reporting for our CBS affiliate here.
	Any number of times he has officially, for the station, looked into Area 51.
	And an awful lot of what you're hearing tonight.
	Now, I want to get his comment in a moment on what happens in ufology, and what happens is, it eats its young.
	It's absolutely horrible what goes on.
	Ufology just sort of self-destructs.
	So, in a moment, we'll find out what George thinks about that, and your calls coming right up.
	George, ufology does more damage to itself than all the chuckling newspaper articles that are ever written.
	Any comments on that?
	I can't argue with you there, Art.
	Ufology is a mess.
	I mean, it starts with the premise of what's a ufologist, and anyone can become one just by saying so.
	You know, and there are a lot of really good people in the field who have worked for a long time to get to the bottom of this mystery.
	But they do it in spite of ufology, because you've got so many crazies and zealous religious type saucer nuts who are firmly convinced they know what the truth is, they know the mind of the aliens, they know where these people come from.
	I try to approach it as a news story, that you follow the evidence where it leads, and don't lock yourself into something.
	Ufology wants to be taken seriously.
	It wants respect from mainstream science.
	I don't blame mainstream scientists from staying away from it because of all the backbiting and backstabbing and infighting and nastiness there is in the field.
	It drives people away.
	Dr. John Mack is an example.
	You know, he became an instant luminary in the field and stuck with it despite the fact that he was under attack by his colleagues at Harvard University and And despite all the loonies that the field attracts, Dr. Jacques Vallée, who I think is maybe the most important researcher in the history of ufology, he basically walked away from it.
	He was tired of it.
	You know, it's not getting anywhere.
	So, yeah, it's a mess.
	I don't see it getting any better.
	People dig in their heels and think they know the truth, and it's almost a religion to some folks.
	You know, it's a wonderful and important mystery that deserves to be taken seriously and be investigated.
	Fairly.
	It hasn't happened.
	And I think a lot of that has to do with just the nutcases that it attracts.
	Carl in Akron, Ohio asks if we're getting any closer to government disclosure of UFO reality.
	I would have to say no.
	I don't think so.
	You know, Art, you and I have been this a long time and it seems like every year you hear it, oh yeah, it's just around the corner.
	I don't think so.
	If you want to go back to Area 51 as an example, I had been working with this congressional investigator who worked on the black budget and, you know, he put it this way.
	Look, when this stuff comes out, people will go to jail.
	I mean, they've been stealing money, diverting it from legitimate national security programs, lying to Congress.
	You know, maybe in the beginning there were good reasons for the cover-up because of how upsetting the reality might have been if the news had broken.
	Now I think it has a lot to do with covering their butts.
	George, do you remember the official government explanation for Roswell?
	Do you remember the silly, silly, silly press conference they had after we saw the dummies that they claimed were dropped?
	Do you remember that?
	Oh, I sure do.
	I mean, you know, which version are they going to come out with next week?
	They've so hopelessly muddled that story.
	And maybe that's on purpose, you know, because, you know, they told what probably is the truth in the beginning.
	The first cover story about a weather balloon, then later it was a double-secret probation weather balloon, and the bodies.
	And, you know, ufologists have not done a very good job themselves.
	We can't seem to agree on what the exact date of the crash was, and whether it's one crash or two, and where it happened, and how many bodies.
	You know, I suspect something really did happen.
	I think the government's lying about it.
	But it's now so hopelessly muddled, I'm not sure we're ever going to get to the bottom of it.
	Yeah, me too.
	Roger in Detroit, Michigan.
	You're on the air with George Knapp.
	Roger in Detroit.
	Going once, going twice, gone.
	To Jason in San Diego, hi.
	We don't seem to be hearing the people that we're putting on.
	Jason in San Diego, are you there?
	I think we may have... Are you still there, George?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Let's try one more.
	Let's see.
	Mike in North Dakota, you're on the air.
	Are you hearing anybody, George?
	No, I'm not.
	I'm not either.
	I wonder where our board op went.
	Okay.
	Alright, they're checking into it, George.
	Apparently, these people are here.
	They're all actually there.
	For some reason, we're just unable to hear them.
	So, we'll work on it.
	We'll see what we can do.
	It's some sort of technical problem.
	Anyway, have they used Up at the Ranch, any professional psychics, remote viewers, people of that caliber, have they brought them in?
	Yes.
	There was a remote viewer, I don't think I can use his name, but you can guess about him.
	It's probably the most renowned remote viewer who was tasked by Bob Bigelow to take a look at it and described it to a tee.
	I think he was here, he was up at Mount Charleston when he did the remote viewing.
	Had never seen the ranch, but but drew it an exact replicate.
	It's really amazing.
	He he had a sense of some sort of foreboding, some some sort of an evil presence underground in a particular part of the ranch.
	And and it sort of fits with a lot of what what we've heard over the years from other people.
	The Native Americans believe that whatever this thing is, that it sort of lives in the ground, at least part of the time.
	The people who lived on the ranch, the people who still live in the area, say they often hear things underground, almost like a train rumbling down there.
	And as I mentioned before, one of the things that seems to get that entity stirred up is digging, is moving earth around.
	In fact, when Tom Gorman bought the property from the previous owners, They included a very strange stipulation in the contract, in the sales agreement, that he was not to do any digging on the property until he gave the previous owners prior notice, which he thought, well, that's just sort of an eccentric little tidbit that they threw in.
	Couldn't understand it, but he sort of understood it later.
	All right.
	Well, that brings up one more interesting topic, then I'm told we can go back to the phones.
	They sensed a great foreboding, so if you had to make a call, George, and you had to say, these are friend or foe, Dr. Jacobs thinks we're all pretty foolish to think they're warm, fuzzy little creatures who have our best interests in mind.
	What do you think?
	Well, it's sort of a mixed bag.
	I suspect that whoever they are, that they're a lot like us, that maybe they have more than one motive.
	There's more than one agenda being played out.
	My general feeling, though, is that they could do us a lot more harm than they've done if they chose to do so.
	That was amply demonstrated on the ranch.
	They didn't mutilate people.
	They mutilated cattle.
	They incinerated dogs.
	They did other things to other kinds of animals, but made a distinction Between doing that to humans.
	They certainly terrorized people there, and there were psychological scars, and a couple of minor physical impacts, but in general, they could have done a lot worse if they wanted to.
	So, there is at least some level of restraint there.
	What their real motives are, I have no idea.
	Well, that's a little bit of hope anyway.
	Alright, I'm told that we now... I apologize to those that we missed because of a technical error.
	Bill in Arizona, you're on with George Knapp.
	Hello, it's good to talk to you both tonight.
	Um, I'm calling from Arizona, and I'm not too far from Vegas.
	Um, one night, my family and I were coming back from Lake Mead, which I'm sure you're both familiar with.
	Um, we saw a bunch of strange lights, had no idea what it was.
	Um, I drove up on it, and when we got to where it was, it was about two miles away, it was gone.
	Saw nothing more of it.
	Well, within a week, there was a very expensive motorhome with about an eight to ten foot dish, Parked out there towards the lake where we saw it and the dish was rotating like a radar screen or something like that and within two days after that there was six or seven helicopters that spent two days full of military troops because they fly so low over my house you could actually see the guys with their m16s flying around the area and they searched this area very very well and I was wanting to know if either one of you had heard anything about that.
	Well, I certainly had not heard of it, but it does bring up the subject of government involvement, where these things are seen.
	George?
	Well, you know, there is ample evidence that the government monitors this stuff on a regular basis, and I would hope that they would.
	You know, I suspect that they don't know the ultimate answers to the obvious questions any more than we do.
	They might have more information, but I'm not sure that they know what the bottom line is.
	As for Lake Mead, you know, we have records dating back to the 40s of UFO sightings, pretty dramatic sightings over that area.
	However, as a caveat to this, they do use Lake Mead for regular training exercises.
	I've been on the lake in boats when I've seen these giant helicopters dropping Navy SEALs or commandos or something into the water and then retrieving them.
	So I'm not trying to throw water on what you saw, just that they do use that area on a regular basis for regular prosaic training exercises.
	All right.
	Third wildcard line would be Dan in Seattle, Washington.
	You're on with George.
	Yes, Art, this is Dan in the U District.
	It's been a long time since I've gotten through.
	It has been, yes.
	And by the way, welcome home, Art.
	Thank you.
	George, I've got a question.
	To see if there's any updates on that email you sent me about that incredible video that I emailed you about a couple years ago shot by an Iranian newsman of that disc that's now, I guess, in the possession of TV One in Iran.
	I'm sorry.
	I haven't seen it.
	I don't have access to it.
	We're not on very good terms with the Iranians these days.
	Yeah.
	I remember what you're mentioning.
	Yeah, I remember you referencing it.
	I have not seen it.
	Yeah, it was an incredible video.
	In fact, I was shocked by it because you could see detail on it.
	You could see windows and everything.
	Well, again, it's going to be very muddled because right now...
	I would imagine that whatever we've got that we're willing to break out, so that we can watch Iran very carefully, is probably flying in the skies over Iran.
	And of course, there have been tons and tons of recent reports of UFO activity in Iran.
	So, what do you think, George?
	Oh, we're on the same page on that one.
	I'll bet there are all sorts of UFOs flying over Iran right now, and that we've built most of them.
	Exactly.
	All right, Roger, in Detroit, Michigan, you're on the air with George Knapp.
	Good morning, gentlemen, Art and George.
	I have a question about a fellow named Phil Schneider.
	I watched a video he did.
	He did a couple videos, and I watched it online.
	I haven't been using a computer that long.
	I haven't been listening to you very long, but I enjoy your show.
	And is Phil Schneider for real?
	I'm sorry, I don't know the guy.
	Oh, you don't know him?
	You've never heard of him?
	You've never seen any of his interviews online?
	Nope.
	Can't say I have.
	Oh, okay.
	All right.
	What does he talk about?
	Well, he was supposedly a geologist that worked for the government.
	And he supposedly killed one of the greys at Dulce Base.
	And he was supposed to be part of, you know, Boring tunnels and he was talking about all this stuff and then he just came up dead.
	It was kind of scary watching it.
	He even had a couple fingers missing off of one hand where he claimed he was shot.
	Okay, alright, well it sounds like somebody we'd like to probably know more about, or possibly know more about.
	There's so much confusion in this whole area of ufology, and separating the wheat from the chaff is just a constant, full-time job.
	Jeff in California, west of the Rockies, you're on with George.
	Hi Art, George.
	I'd like to know if either one of you know any more about the UFO at Norton Air Force Base that Colonel Corso described in the day after Roswell.
	I almost said tomorrow.
	The reason I'm asking, I was stationed in Norton Air Force Base, and to this day, even with base transfers, there's a warehouse-style building that has not been bulldozed that has a Faraday-type chamber in it from what I understand from a person who worked the air conditioning there on the base, and he indicated there was a whole lot of air conditioning in that building.
	And it's run by Northrop Grumman.
	It has been run by TRW and was their Space and Missile Systems Operations for many years.
	But that building is still there and everything else has been pretty much remodeled or redesigned.
	Do you guys know any more about that particular aspect that Colonel Corso described in his book?
	I don't, I'm sorry to say.
	I hate to be striking out for you here, but I've read the same stuff.
	That's pretty much it.
	Sorry.
	Okay, well, maybe I'll contact you guys and let you know what I do know about it, because I think there's more trickling out.
	Yeah, please do.
	You said the building is still there, despite everything else being demolished, so that's pretty interesting.
	If you have anything on it, by all means, please get it to us.
	Mike in Louisiana, you're on with George.
	Yes, I just had something to add.
	You had mentioned, or Bill had mentioned, that he had seen a craft that seemed to float along.
	Oh, yes.
	A company, Arion 26, and I think you can even find them on the web.
	They had done a little gadget called a deltoid pumpkin seed.
	It was a lighter-than-air aircraft, but it wasn't shaped like a dirigible or a Hindenburg.
	It was an aerodynamic craft.
	And some of the things that have come along is aerogel.
	It's an aerogel.
	I think they call it solid smoke.
	It's actually a lighter-than-air material for building large structures.
	You know, it could be.
	It could be.
	I can't deny that it could be something like that.
	Yeah, and you know, the U-2, when we found out that the U-2 existed, the SR-71 was already in operation.
	And there's things out there that are black projects, I'm sure, but when I was in the service in the late 70s, I'd seen some things up in Kansas that definitely weren't dirigibles.
	I kind of think it could have been unmanned vehicles back then.
	Because one of the things, there was a nuclear jet engine project that Pratt & Whitney and General Electric were involved in in the early 60s.
	There was also Nerva, which was another option if we didn't get the Saturn Vs when we were going to the moon.
	And all of these projects had problems with shielding the crew.
	But, you know, if you could solve some of the problems, I wouldn't see why we wouldn't have, you know, these sort of things.
	We use submarines to put people into, you know, important places when we've got to do it quietly.
	So, you know, we probably have terrestrial technology.
	Well, maybe so, sir.
	But, you know, here's what I would say.
	If we really have these craft, these triangles, and if these triangles are all ours, then why fly them predominantly over interstate highways?
	Why fly them where people are going to see them if they're all this big a secret?
	Why make them so damn public in the sense that I think the major place they've been seen is over interstate highways.
	Had you heard that, George?
	That's true, yeah.
	The NID study I referenced earlier tracked it, you know, over highways, over cities, and on air routes between air bases.
	And of course, you know, if they're from somewhere else, they might have interest in all of those things.
	Yeah, it just, it doesn't make sense.
	If it's a big secret, then why fly it in full public view?
	Wildcard Line, Joe in Los Angeles, you're on with George Knapp.
	Hey, Art, twice in one night, I really do feel special.
	I have a question here for George.
	I've seen either a special on the History Channel or some like-minded channel, and it was talking about these cattle mutilations, and I wondered if you could expand on what they were saying.
	They basically tried to debunk cattle mutilation by saying Well, you know, there have been a variety of explanations for cattle mutilations over the years, and none of them really work.
	I mean, we heard it was Satanists.
	We heard it was predators like coyotes.
	I wanted if you had any more information for that and I'll take the answer off the air.
	Thanks guys.
	Well, you know, there have been a variety of explanations for cattle mutilations over the years and none of them
	really work.
	I mean, we heard it was Satanists.
	We heard it was predators like coyotes.
	Well, you know, now this one.
	There's no bacteria, for example, that cut up that calf on the on the Skinwalker Ranch.
	Not in a matter of minutes, not taking 75 pounds of meat off of its bone and ripping the bones out.
	Some of these mutilation cases, the ball joints have been ripped out of the steers.
	You know, it's very precise parts that are taken.
	You look at them under a microscope and it's surgical.
	There have even been indications of high heat used as cutting instruments, pinking shears, But, you know, the natural explanation doesn't cut it.
	Hold it right there, George.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	We'll be right back.
	You know, I kind of wonder if George, who's been at this game for a long, long time now, has any advice for other reporters out there around the country.
	There are a lot of them, radio and television reporters, who might consider delving into this realm.
	In a moment, we'll find out.
	Mike in Auburn, Washington says, hey Art, I thought you just said on your show the past two nights you're not using screeners anymore.
	You obviously know the names of the people that have been phoning in tonight and so you're using screeners.
	Well look, no I didn't say that.
	What I said was, I'm not using screeners during open lines.
	Mike, and anybody else who might be confused on the issue, during open lines I'm doing unscreened calls.
	When we have a guest, It's a different story.
	So, there you have it.
	We want to make sure that there is some sort of relevant question that you're asking.
	Now, George, here's a relevant one for you.
	There are many reporters across the country.
	Some of them, no doubt, are thinking of doing stories in this area.
	Perhaps, you know, for the first time.
	Would you have any advice for them?
	Well, I would say, come on in.
	The water's fine.
	However, these are treacherous waters.
	You know, there is a tremendous learning curve in this.
	You can't just jump in into the deep end and think you're going to solve this mystery.
	I remember naively thinking back when I started, well, heck, give me six months, I'll get to the bottom of this thing.
	Well, here it is a lot of years later, and I'm still no closer to it because, you know, there is a learning curve.
	You have to figure out who to trust and who not to trust, who to believe.
	What to believe?
	I mean, you know, 90-95% of all that I hear in the field is just nonsense or there is a prosaic explanation.
	It's that other 5-10%.
	That's the heart of the matter.
	That's interesting.
	That would be where I would focus my attention.
	But take it slow.
	That would be my advice.
	Take it slow.
	Learn the ground rules and who to trust because it is treacherous and it's hard to figure out what to believe.
	Yeah, that and plus what you mentioned earlier, that then when you go back to another story, they're going to be tossing little green men at you for the rest of your career.
	That's true, and I think that has a great deal to do with why the networks don't give it more coverage.
	You know, see a History Channel has a UFO show on every night and they do fine work.
	But if we really want to generate some change to get people fired up, you need somebody like CBS News covering this stuff.
	When they've done UFO stories, they always get a tremendous reaction, but those network correspondents don't want to be slammed with this.
	I remember when 48 Hours came here to do a UFO special.
	They did an hour show and, of course, Area 51 was part of it.
	They had to drag those reporters kicking and screaming into doing that program because they were worried it would follow them.
	It doesn't have to be that way.
	You know, you can do good reporting.
	The Peter Jennings, you remember the Peter Jennings special?
	Yeah.
	Well, of course, Ufology roundly criticized the Peter Jennings special, and from their perspective, perhaps rightly so, it didn't do everything they wanted, and of course it couldn't.
	However, for the general public, I thought it was a good first step.
	I did, too.
	I mean, you know, obviously they gave short shrift to a couple parts of those stories.
	You know, Roswell, I thought they really did Stan Friedman an injustice, and I thought on the abduction stuff, they dismissed that pretty easily.
	I was happy to see that there was coverage, and a lot of the tone, at least for the first part of the program, was pretty supportive that this is a legitimate area for inquiry.
	The ultimate end was not very satisfying, but like you, I was glad to see some attention.
	Well, I wonder if the feedback encouraged them to do a follow-up or discouraged them from ever touching it again.
	We'll find out.
	First time caller on the line, Andy in San Antonio.
	You're on with George.
	Hey Art and George, I just wanted to ask George if he'd known about an attempt to recover one of the first autonomous aircraft that the U.S.
	developed at Roswell around the same time?
	Sorry, I don't know anything about that one.
	All right, the reason I ask is I had a buddy who lived with his grandfather and He claimed to have been there at Roswell and seen the aliens in the aircraft, but he was of a level of top-secret clearance that he was out there at the time.
	His purpose was to recover an autonomous aircraft developed by the U.S., top-secret deal, and he went out there to recover the craft and ran into some U.S.
	military that was saying, no, you can't go out there.
	There's something out there.
	He's like, well, I'm going to go get my craft, and if you don't have a level four secret clearance, you can't come.
	He ended up going out there and found the aliens and described the craft to me and the aliens to me and it sounds pretty interesting.
	He said that he saw live bodies and dead bodies and the live alien communicated to him that, in the same dialect, he said, I would be much obliged if you went up on top of the hill and recovered one of the bodies for me.
	And so he and his team recovered the alien and went off to find the Top-secret aircraft out there.
	Well, that's a heck of a story.
	I've never heard of us having an atomic-powered aircraft, certainly not back then.
	That would be an amazing technical achievement.
	Art, you ever heard of us having an atomic aircraft?
	No, that's a new one on me.
	We're kind of getting to the point where those who participated in Roswell as adults are pretty much not with us any longer.
	Is that story going to eventually Or do you think it will just sort of live on and expand?
	Well, like you said, all the first-hand witnesses are rapidly disappearing.
	I can't imagine that there would be government files left somewhere where the public could access them that deal with the truth about Roswell.
	I don't know where you go from here.
	Maybe there's still a Jesse Marcel out there somewhere hanging on who wants to tell a story, but I think it's just about gone as far as it can go.
	However, you've got folks looking into other kinds of crashes.
	They had a crash retrieval conference here organized by Ryan Wood here in Las Vegas back in, I think, November.
	And you've got a lot of folks who are interested in that particular discipline.
	So maybe Roswell isn't going to have any new secrets come out, but there are other ones to investigate.
	Now, you remember Congressman Schiff, late Congressman Schiff, he requested the records and they were all Gone.
	Destroyed.
	Or missing.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And I suppose there might be a vault somewhere, but it's not a vault that you or I are ever going to see.
	Jason in San Diego, you're on with George Knapp.
	Hi.
	Well, I'd like to say that there are nuclear-powered aircraft.
	In fact, the U-2 and the SR-71 are both nuclear-powered.
	And I also want to say this, that in 1989... Wait, wait, wait.
	Stop.
	Stop there.
	I'm not aware they're nuclear-powered.
	Look at the Federation of American Scientists online.
	You can punch in ASPEN, and that stands for Aerospace Plane with Nuclear Engines.
	In fact, we've been working on one since the Manhattan Project.
	You know, the United States was interested in making an atomic-powered aircraft in order To basically stay up there forever.
	I mean, basically 20 years.
	I don't doubt.
	The question I want to ask is that in 1989, when the SR-71 was being retired, basically the government, you know, dug a big hole in the ground and buried the SR-71s, which are made out of titanium, worth billions of dollars worth of aircraft, buried them in the ground.
	At the same time is when people at the base started coming down with Radiation poisoning.
	And then this is when George Knapp and your buddy Lazar, you know, come out and start, you know, claiming that UFOs are on the base.
	Meanwhile, people, contractors on the base are dying.
	Are you involved in covering up, basically, the nuclear program?
	And think about the deaths of these contractors.
	A lot of these people work in Las Vegas and fly in on Janet Airlines.
	I think this is what's really going on, is that the United States has had these nuclear-powered aircraft.
	Uh, when we decided to retire them, and when they were up in 1989, you know, people on the base started dying.
	Okay, so the question is, the question is, hold on, caller, hold on.
	The question is, are you involved in covering up the fact that there were nuclear, these aircraft were nuclear powered, George?
	Well, the SR-71 and the U-2 certainly were not nuclear-powered.
	They were powered by Pratt & Whitney engines.
	And I have no doubt that the U.S.
	government and the military have looked into having atomic-powered aircraft and would like to have them.
	The fact is, I seriously doubt we had them back in the 1940s when that last color was referring to.
	As for burying SR-71s out of Area 51, I seriously doubt it.
	I think most of those are accounted for, and most of them have gone to other airbases for display purposes.
	Some of them are still flying.
	And they weren't radioactive to begin with.
	As for the question about the Groom Lake workers getting sick, not only have I not covered it up, I'm the guy who first reported it.
	We, with KALSTV, at my direction, fought all the way to the U.S.
	Supreme Court with those workers.
	We won minor victories in forcing the opening of a lot of those files.
	We walked hand-in-hand with them through every step of the way, and I think what happened to them is an absolute tragedy.
	But it's not because SR-71s were buried in the ground.
	It's because of all the component materials from stealth and all kinds of other stuff that they burned in open pits, and it covered the base day after day with giant piles of black smoke.
	We reported it.
	It's been picked up elsewhere.
	There is no cover-up.
	Thank you, George.
	Alright, Anne in Texas somewhere or another, you're on with George.
	Dr. Mack, when he passed, who's taking over his work and different ones like Colonel Corso and different ones?
	Are you privy to who's maybe picking up the gauntlet?
	That's a very good question.
	Who is going to be coming along who will be the next Dr. Mack or Colonel Corso?
	Well, there's no one of Dr. Mack's stature in the field, I don't think, and especially in the area of abduction research.
	Dr. David Jacobs is a good man and a good researcher.
	I have a great deal of respect for Bud Hopkins.
	He doesn't have the academic credentials that these other folks do, but he's pioneered in that field.
	I don't know that those shoes of Dr. Mack can ever be filled, but there are some good people, in particular in abduction research, who are plugging away.
	As for Colonel Corso, I'm not sure.
	I mean, I think he might have been a one-of-a-kind guy.
	There are other people like him who are probably privy to secrets.
	I hope they come forward someday and can help us shed light on this mystery, but we're waiting.
	All right.
	Stanley in New York, your turn with George Knapp.
	Yeah, good morning, George, and good morning, Art.
	I was curious, in terms of percentage-wise, and by the way, as far as people eventually coming out with stories, they will reach their Well, inevitable death on deathbeds, and maybe then we'll be able to get deathbed confessions from people who have worked, who have nothing to lose anymore at that point.
	So that's maybe when we'll really get some great insight information.
	But up until then, what percentage possibility would you say that this is simply a matter Human beings having great creative minds, and things happening optically to their eyes, to their minds, to the connection, and that there is virtually nothing going on.
	In terms of percentage, is there a chance that absolutely nothing extraterrestrial is going on that's a figment of our imagination?
	Yeah, that's a good question.
	Alright, George?
	Well, I would say 90 to 95% is the term that most serious researchers would use to say how many can be explained away through prosaic means.
	Clouds, planets, planes, weather balloons, whatever.
	In fact, when I went to Russia over there back in the early 90s, the Russian files that I accessed, their military conducted a 10-year nationwide study Tens of thousands of cases.
	They reached the same sort of conclusion that 90 to 95 percent could be explained.
	As I said a couple of minutes ago, it's that other 5 to 10 percent that's interesting.
	And how many do you need?
	I mean, one would be enough.
	There are some very good cases that cannot be explained away.
	There are some very good ones that have been well documented and were physical effects and radar sightings and film and things of that sort.
	that exist that are not in the imagination.
	So you would say there's virtually then no chance that all of this could just be
	explained away by psychological anomalies?
	Not at all. I mean there's a small percentage that are real and
	unexplainable. In fact I think as Stan Friedman often says, there were
	government studies back in the blue book days that looked at psychological
	possibilities as an explanation.
	That was a very small percentage, I think five or six percent.
	Okay.
	Paul in Los Angeles.
	You're on with George Knapp.
	Hi.
	Good morning, George and Art.
	Good morning.
	I have been listening for years in hopes of hearing a story like mine, and I haven't yet.
	Real short, we were on the beach, me and my ex-wife.
	We were stalked by a flying saucer.
	It was a short distance off the water, and it was matching our direction and our speed, and whichever way we turned, it matched it just instantly.
	I was a law enforcement officer at the time, and I had really good instincts, and I had a good sense of fear, and I really felt at that point that we were going to be abducted.
	And I sensed a real evil we hid for a while, and it eventually took off.
	But I tell you, it was one of the most frightening experiences for me and her, and I haven't heard a story like that.
	I've heard of abduction stories, but I've never heard of near-abduction stories.
	And also, there would seem to be a real strong psychic connection at that point in time.
	Just a real deep fear and a real connection that I've never had, you know, since.
	And I was wondering if there was any other stories or something else like that.
	Alright, alright.
	Have you heard of any UFOs?
	Actually, I have.
	I've had calls, George, from people who have told me that story.
	That they've had their speeds and directions and turns matched by UFOs.
	Yeah, I've heard those kinds of stories.
	In the literature, there are several of them where they've been stalked and shadowed, essentially, by UFOs.
	A lot of folks have had the emotional reactions that this guy was talking about.
	In fact, on the ranch, they had some of that.
	Some of these balls, and I don't want to get too sidetracked, but some of the balls, these blue balls that seem to be made out of glass with a liquid inside, generated fear way out of proportion.
	And it seemed to almost feed on it.
	That's interesting.
	You said blue balls that seem to be made of glass with liquid inside.
	Why that description?
	That's pretty specific.
	Yeah, I know.
	That was a regular thing that the folks saw on the ranch.
	These things appeared to be about the size of a softball, maybe a little bit bigger.
	A glass-like exterior, and then inside was kind of a bubbling blue liquid, and they would just hover there.
	And seem to either generate or feed off of fear.
	I mean, just mind-numbing, fall-to-your-knees kind of fear, way out of proportion for what the rancher and his wife had ever experienced before.
	Fascinating.
	Marie in San Francisco, you're on with George.
	Hi.
	Hello, George and Art.
	Question.
	I heard the year 40s, and I also heard Lake Mead.
	In 1943, I lived in a government facility.
	Between Lake Mead and the highway close to BMI, Basic Magnesium Incorporated.
	And my uncle was a guard there.
	I have his little books where he'd log people in.
	And he also saw a crash.
	And he came home and the next day we moved.
	We went over, actually it was at night, we went over the dam.
	We went into the desert, we went javelin hunting in the middle of nowhere, and we didn't surface again until around Christmas.
	And I just thought it was an autograph.
	Hold on, hold on.
	We're so short on time here.
	The program is ending, but if you have anything in writing that is really important, do you?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Would you be willing to get it to us?
	Well, I have it, and I'd be willing to give it to somebody.
	But, you know, just to send it off in the blue, it's kind of scary.
	No, no, no.
	I don't want you to do that.
	No, I don't want you to do that.
	Okay, well, I don't want to take up your time, but... All right.
	What I would like you to do is consider... Thank you very much.
	Please consider...
	Getting it copied.
	Don't send any originals anywhere, but it does sound like you might have something.
	Please get copies of it and get it either to George Knapp at KLAS Television in Las Vegas or get it to me.
	Somehow, George, that had the ring of reality.
	Yeah, that sounded pretty intriguing there.
	I'm willing to take a look at it.
	You just know, sitting around the country in various places, George, there is stuff like that, and there was just something about that lady's voice.
	Listen, the program is ending.
	We're out of time.
	I cannot thank you enough for being here tonight, George, and sort of bearing your soul.
	Great to talk to you again, Art, and let's get together when you're in town.
	You know it'll happen.
	Take care, George.
	All right, everybody, that's it.
	That's this weekend.
	We return your sets to the weekday version.
	George will be here tomorrow night to carry on.
	Everybody have a wonderful weekend.
	Thank you for all the response.

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