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March 18, 2006 - Art Bell

02:29:15

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Nick Pope - UFO Sightings

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01:00:53

nick pope

01:04:35

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so that's gonna be obviously gonna be good.
		I mean he was up at the top there, so he's the guy.
		Find out what the Brits know.
		Now, after this weekend, I'm gonna be gone for a couple of weekends.
		I'm going to get a bit of a change of scenery.
		So I'll be gone for a couple weekends.
		Let's look at the world news.
		The French are once again rioting.
		They seem to do a lot of rioting in France.
		They have a lot of time on their hands.
		Police loosed water cannons and tear gas on rioting students and activists who rampage through a McDonald's figures, right?
		They'd hit a McDonald's, and attacked storefronts in the Capitol Saturday as demonstrations against a plan to relax job protection stuff.
		Oh, that's what it is, you see.
		The French are guaranteed their jobs.
		They have like, I don't know, five or six weeks of vacation every year.
		They've got it really good.
		And so they want to relax the job protections.
		And, of course, they're rioting about that.
		And my kitty cats are batting their heads.
		If I turned up the audio.
		Now he's not doing it.
		Little head was hitting the door pretty hard there.
		All right.
		Anti-war rallies mark Iraq anniversary.
		Thousands of anti-war protesters took to the streets around the world on Saturday, making the third anniversary of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq with demands that coalition troops leave right now.
		The Arab Muslim League Federation had addressed more than a thousand people who gathered in Times Square near a military recruiting station, which was guarded by the police.
		Anybody out there remember why did we start that war?
unidentified		What the hell was it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why did we go to war in Iraq?
		Something about weapons of mass destruction?
		There we go.
		I guess I guess you can't hear it.
		Mike won't pick it up.
		Little pause.
		Let me try here.
		Let's see.
unidentified		Let's see if I can get over by the door and then we'll talk more about the war here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's see if you can actually hear anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeti, is that you?
unidentified		Else, he won't do a thing because I'm talking to him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is so funny.
		Let me get everything back together here.
		Okay, back to the war.
		Let me turn that down.
		Back to the war.
		Why did we start that war?
		Why did we go to war in Iraq?
		Weapons of mass destruction.
		Well, I guess they're not there, so it couldn't have been it.
		Now, because Saddam was being so mean to his people, hmm, that one doesn't exactly hold up because, you know, there's mean dictators all over the world, and they're mean to their people.
		You know, if that was the reason we'd been at war in Cambodia a long time ago.
		Stopped killing fields.
		Much worse than anything that went on in Iraq.
		And then there was oil.
		It probably was oil, right?
		But we didn't say that, and we don't say that.
		We dare not speak the word oil.
		I'd have a lot more respect.
		But I hear that door.
		I'm going to have to give it up.
		I've got a loose wire under there, and if I let the cats in, they will...
		Fine.
		Come on in.
		What the hell?
		There's a little wire under there, and if the cat hits it, it'll start humming.
		But there's obviously, I'm not going to keep them out.
		So I'd have had a lot more respect for our government if we'd said, well, it's the oil.
		Our country runs on oil.
		We've had a bad policy of not pursuing other alternative methods of energy, and so we need oil.
		And so we're going to go invade Iraq.
		I've had more respect for him.
		Louisiana, it seems, once, you know, coastal folk, I mean, they just love that Bayou country.
		Trouble is now they're leaving since the storms.
		They're leaving in droves, actually leaving the place forever.
		By the way, today's scorer is Navy 1, Pirate 0.
		Our Navy, United Arab Emirates is where the story comes from.
		Two U.S. Navy warships, two of them, mind you, exchanged gunfire with a suspected pirate ship off the coast of Somalia.
		Now, you've got to see this ship.
		It's sort of like a Rowboat Plus.
		So I'm sure that probably the pirates fired first, which was really stupid.
		Firing on a U.S. Navy ship is just, under any circumstances, stupid.
		But being in a rowboat and having, you know, maybe a grenade launcher or something like that, really, really stupid.
		So two U.S. Navy ships opened up on them.
		Pirates, mind you.
		And I think we killed one and captured five, and they were not happy at all.
		So Navy 1, Pirate Zero.
		Oh, here, you're going to love this.
		Then we'll do a break.
		It's tempting to blame big food companies for America's big obesity problem.
		After all, they're the folks who supersized our fries, family portioned our potato chips, and big gulped our sodas, right?
		There's also the billions they've spent keeping their products ever on our minds and in our mouths, likened by some to the way tobacco companies seduced smokers.
		Such practices have made the food industry the target of lawsuits and legislation seeking to yank junk food from schools and curb advertising to children.
		That's how it begins, right?
		It began that way with cigarettes.
		They stopped advertising to children, aiming at young people, and then pretty soon TV ads were illegal.
		And then I think billboards became illegal.
		And now it's going to be food.
		So they will rip that Big Mac from your hands.
		Soon, not just smokers will be, well, how are we thought of these days, smokers, as we're pariahs.
		Let's just say it.
		Pariahs.
		And so now it's going to be, you know, if you're seen with a Big Mac or maybe some McNuggets or, I don't know, something from Wendy's dripping and you've got it in your hand and somebody, some food cop will come up and I don't know what they'll do.
		Probably eventually arrest you, make you eat it out on the street, not near any young people who might be influenced by seeing you down a Big Mac.
		Oh, America, America.
	We'll be right back.
	We're going to open line shortly, but, you know, the news goes downhill from there.
	The first story's headline from the Independent in Great Britain, where you get these things, you see, from Great Britain.
	We don't publish them.
	It says, climate change irreversible as Arctic sea ice fails to reform.
	See, that's got to catch your attention right away.
	Think about it.
	Climate change irreversible.
	That's in little quotations.
	As Arctic sea ice fails to reform.
	Now, that should get your attention.
	Sea ice in the Arctic has failed to reform for the second consecutive winter, raising fears that global warming may have tipped the polar regions into irreversible climate change far sooner than predicted.
	Now, that's a big word, irreversible.
	Irreversible, meaning the poles are going and you can't stop it.
	Satellite measurements of the area of the Arctic covered by sea ice show that for every month this winter, the ice failed to return even to its long-term average rate of decline.
	It is the second consecutive winter that sea ice has not managed to reform enough to compensate for the unprecedented melting during the summers.
	Scientists are now convinced the Arctic sea ice is showing signs of both a winter and a summer decline that could indicate a major acceleration in its long-term rate of disappearance.
	The greatest fear is that an environmental positive feedback has now already kicked in where global warming melts ice, which in itself then causes the seas to get warmer further as more sunlight is absorbed by the dark erosion rather than reflected by the white ice, less white ice, less reflection, more dark water, more absorption, more melting, and the whole thing becomes a runaway feedback cycle.
	Mark Serenz, a sea ice specialist at the U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Center in Colorado, said in September 2005, the Arctic sea ice cover was at its lowest extent since satellite monitoring began.
	First satellite we had to do that in 1979, probably the lowest in the last hundred years.
	And he said, well, we can't be certain.
	It sure does look like 2006 is more of the same.
	Unless conditions turn colder, much colder, we may be headed for another year of big sea ice losses, rivaling or even perhaps exceeding what we saw in September of 2005.
	We are, of course, monitoring the situation closely.
	But again, the headline is climate change irreversible as Arctic sea ice fails to reform.
	Now, from there, we go on to even better stuff like bird flu to hit the U.S. within three weeks.
	I'll cover the details tomorrow night.
	Or is Siberian thaw the beginning of climate tipping point?
	That also from Great Britain, so much coming from, and then from BBC.
	Let's see, U.S. climate scientists have recorded a significant rise in the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, pushing it to a record new level.
	BBC News has learned the latest data shows CO2 levels now stand at 381 parts per million, 100 parts per million above the pre-industrial average.
	Oh, by the way, by the way, by the way, tomorrow night, I think it's tomorrow night on 60 Minutes, there's going to be a very, very interesting segment in which the man that we have not heard from on the climate is going to speak.
	So we're going to hear something tomorrow night.
	I urge you not to miss 60 Minutes tomorrow night.
	One of the segments will have that climate scientist on.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		I have a possible solution to your cat problem in your radio room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is no solution.
unidentified		Well, let's hear it.
unidentified		I've read a couple of articles where people have built shelf ledges around the upper part of their room because cats love sitting up high where it's warmer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
unidentified		And the other thing about cats, when you're on the telephone...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Build little perches for them?
unidentified		Well, they built a shelf that went all the way around the room in like a little steps, like a little, like it would be like a knick-knack shelf kind of thing.
		But it was for the cats.
		And anyways, the other thing, when you're on the telephone, cats don't know what a phone is.
		They hear you talking.
		They think you're talking to them.
		And why aren't you paying attention to them?
		That's why they're always bugging you when you're on the phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have five of them.
		So close your eyes and try and imagine what it's like to have five cats.
		Every one of them a darling.
		But they all, well, there is something about a closed door that causes Alarms to go off in a little cat brain.
		Inside that little furry head, alarm bells go off, and doors must not be closed.
		And whatever's going on on the other side of that closed door is obviously more interesting than where they are.
		So even though they have the entire house to roam and trouble to get in, it is that one room they must get in.
		In that case, my studio.
		Wild Carline, you're on here.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hey, Art.
		Hey.
		I want to know, there's a lot of things I'd love to do about, but I want to know if you were to talk to somebody from the future, let's just say that's me, what would be the one science question you would absolutely want to know, first and foremost?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By what date the planet becomes uninhabitable for man?
unidentified		That's a science question?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it certainly is, yes.
unidentified		Oh, I thought you were a time travel guy.
		I was hoping you'd go that way.
		But the date itself is one that is not absolute.
		You're looking for something that's absolute, and that's never going to be the case.
		Because that would be a good idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, unless you're a time traveler, and then you can look ahead, and you can see bodies all over the place, people not being able to breathe, gasping for breath, the climate changing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can see, if you're a time traveler, all these things and tell me, roughly, by what day or what year it becomes uninhabitable.
unidentified		Well, you're speaking of some gross circumstance, and there's never a gross circumstance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you reading the headlines?
unidentified		I am.
unidentified		In fact, I'm aware of the climatology situation not only in the past, but the present.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you, sir, when you start seeing headlines like climate change, irreversible as Arctic sea ice fails to reform, that's important.
unidentified		Yes, but, Art, there's also an argument that if you look at it...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		what kind of arguments left?
unidentified		Oh, I know you want to sensationalize the No, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a real headline.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's from Britain now.
unidentified		I know.
unidentified		I'm not arguing the headline here with you, brother.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		I'm not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then, then.
unidentified		But there's interesting things.
		Let me just take one.
		You want to go climate?
		Let's go climate.
		There's people who are saying, oh, my God, Greenland is melting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Blah, blah, blah.
		But there's various climate.
		Hold on.
		There's various climatologists that have said to us, hey, the Vikings were gardening on Greenland.
		You know that, don't you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, look, sir.
		Most climatologists now have gone off the bandwagon of trying to unsell this because they can't, because the truth is now in front of us.
		And so I would urge you, I'll tell you what, buddy, you get out and you talk to some of the people that you respect in climatology these days and see what kind of opinion you get.
		See how many dissenters you still find to the obvious fact that our climate is in very, very fast change.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Thank you for taking my call this morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for making it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm sorry, your name?
unidentified		My name is Jeff, and I'm listening on KTRS in St. Louis, Missouri.
		Yes, sir.
		I have a quick comment about the Iraq war.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know why we went to war?
unidentified		Well, it was all the deal about weapons of mass destruction and all that stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, but they weren't there.
unidentified		Yeah, but then I guess if they weren't there, why did Bill Clinton attack Iraq in December of 98?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, well, because there was this threat, you know, to our president that we traced back there.
		Yeah.
		But why did we watch that?
		But the question is, why did we go to war at this time?
		What was it?
unidentified		The weapons of mass destruction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The ones that weren't there?
unidentified		That supposedly were not there.
unidentified		But one of the recent stories in the New York Times said that he lied to his generals saying that they were there, that he had them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean Saddam was lying to his own military?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He couldn't do that because, see, the generals were in charge of that kind of stuff if it was even there.
unidentified		According to the New York Times story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
unidentified		But my main comment was...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, here come half a million Americans, you know, and the generals go, hey, okay, so where is our big weapons?
		And he'd do what?
		He'd say, well, you know, there's something about that that I was going to mention to you.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't have them.
unidentified		Well, this, what do you, I think this Iran now, I'm not old.
unidentified		I am, it was way before my time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a good question.
		Iran.
		Do you think we're going to go to war with Iran?
unidentified		I think there's a little bit more of a world consensus with Iran than there was with Iraq.
unidentified		Because even France and Germany is on board with Iran, and they were against us with Iraq.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you think they're on board why?
		Because there's obviously a more threat than I. Well, see, now, see, the French are like on board now.
		But if it actually comes down to war, the French aren't going to go to war.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guarantee that there's no chance of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They'll riot about their guaranteed jobs.
unidentified		There's no way we can invade Iran like we did Iraq.
unidentified		There's no way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not without a really good reason.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very large weapons of mass destruction.
unidentified		Yeah, and I think there could be a limited campaign to set their programs back a few years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who else do you think we ought to go to war against?
unidentified		I don't know, but I do know I ran...
		But my main comment was I ran as the...
		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
unidentified		Yeah, can you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who do we really dislike?
unidentified		Who don't we dislike, I guess, is the question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, but it's a matter of degree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who do we dislike the most?
unidentified		Well, right now it seems like we're focusing our attention on Iran.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, where do you cross the war threshold of dislike?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Iran, yeah.
unidentified		Well, I know no one really wants war, but what's better, trying to prevent the spread of these weapons or allowing the spread of these weapons where they may eventually be used one day?
		Yeah.
		You know, I mean, it's like a lose-lose situation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll say this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If we attack Iran and invade Iran, and then we get there and like they don't have any nukes or at least, you know.
unidentified		They're flaunting the stuff that they have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Most of the way toward the nukes.
unidentified		They're flaunting the stuff that they have, so they're not hiding it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, they said that about Saddam, too.
unidentified		But then, of course, I haven't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They absolutely assured the president, yes, sir, there are some terrible weapons there.
unidentified		But I think at this point, it's a lose-lose with Iran.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Think so?
unidentified		Yeah, because right now I'm not old enough to remember.
unidentified		I wasn't even born during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about Korea?
		I know we're not happy with Korea.
		We're having a lot of earthquakes on the moon now.
		Wait a minute.
		Earthquakes on the moon.
		Earthquakes on the moon as four kinds of, actually deep moonquakes, 700 kilometers below the surface, vibrations from the impact of meteorites.
		Well, that figures right.
		A thermal quakes caused by the expansion of the frigid crust where first illuminated by the morning sun after two weeks of deep freeze night.
		Okay, well, that makes sense.
		Shallow moonquakes, only 20 or 30 kilometers below surface.
		Okay, well, the one that doesn't make sense is that it's seismically active at 700 kilometers below the surface.
		Now, that means there's a whole lot more going on the moon, in the moon, than we suspected by a long shot.
		Once again, don't forget tomorrow, you're going to hear from the NASA scientist on 60 Minutes who tried to warn Americans about global warming.
		He says the White House won't let them, and correspondent Scott Pelley has obtained documents that show just how much editing White House officials are doing that lessens and sometimes changes the very findings the scientists reported, the very findings.
		So in other words, they're saying the White House is actually altering the results of what NASA is saying to them so that you won't have to be bothered by hearing that kind of thing.
unidentified		I'm going to go.
unidentified		I'm going to go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You remember the RFID that everybody was so freaked out about?
unidentified		RFID, oh, big brother.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Researchers have discovered a way to infect RFID tags, that's radio frequency identification tags, with a computer worm, raising the disturbing prospect that products, ID cards, even pets could be used to spread malicious code.
		So your little ankle-biting dog could be a virus spreader, and it would spread from one RFID tag to another like the plague.
		I shouldn't laugh.
		You know, they come out.
		Inevitably, man comes up with some sort of absolutely unsinkable.
		That's a great word, unsinkable, right?
		They don't say that about any ship anymore.
		They did try that, unsinkable, of course, saying.
		And so, you know, with regard to code and RFID tags and all the rest of it, it cannot be broken, cannot be tampered with, absolutely safe, and then here we go.
		So it's a never-ending battle, you know, but it'll still be like Navy 1, Pirate Zero.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi there.
		How are you doing, Mr. Bell?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm okay.
unidentified		It's an honor to talk to you.
unidentified		I just want to throw out a rhetorical question for people to ponder regarding what probably most of the people in this world are thinking and have been for a very long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		If America and a few, a little handful of countries can and are allowed to have nuclear weapons, why the bleep can't anybody else?
unidentified		And I'm not supporting what any other country does or regime, but isn't it pretty obvious that these people have a right to look at us with a very skeptical eye?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah.
		I mean, your argument has merit, but look, think of it this way.
		Nuclear weapons are endgame things.
		They're for mankind.
		They're endgame things.
		So we got them.
		The Russians got them.
		Now, what?
		The Pakistanis, we think they have them.
		The Israelis, they have those ones that they don't have in the desert.
		And on and on.
		So I guess the nations realized that they're so horrible that they really do have to stop proliferation.
		And if they don't, it'll be the end of all mankind.
		So if you were in charge of whether to try and stop nations from getting them or not, knowing that if you didn't, it would be the end of mankind, what would you do?
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah.
unidentified		Exactly.
unidentified		Well, thank you for taking the call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're very welcome.
		Take care.
		I think the answer is you would try.
		You'd realize the power of these things to eliminate all.
		I mean, what if the pirates out there had had nuclear weapons?
		Then it would have been Pirates 1, Navy 0.
		And it could have been the beginning of World War III and the end of mankind.
		So I don't know.
		If you've got nuclear weapons and you know how bad they are, I guess you have to try to stop proliferation or else.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
		Hey, R. Tim from L.A. Yes, sir.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I got a question.
unidentified		I've seen your movies, and now you brought up the story about...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I only had one.
unidentified		Yeah, I played that movie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Plus, you're talking about global warming.
unidentified		So is the next progression then a deep freeze?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's certainly entirely possible.
		The premise in the movie, sir, is also not only possible, but actually more or less underway right now.
		The current that keeps England and Europe, most of Europe, temperate is beginning to splinter and stop.
unidentified		So will it affect just the North Pole or North and South?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just the North Pole.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're talking about all of Europe here.
unidentified		Right, right, right.
unidentified		So there wouldn't be like a deep freeze on the southern hemisphere then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, if you're talking about, see, we're talking of several different things.
		The ocean current, sorry.
		The ocean current is what, for example, would freeze Europe.
		The fact that the North Pole is melting and what ultimate consequences that'll have for man, we're not really sure yet.
		But, you know, if all the ice at the north part of the world is suddenly gone, you just know it's going to have some effect.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Definitely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think?
unidentified		I'm just scared.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've seen a lot of pictures of the world, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there's always all that ice cap up there.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if that's gone, that's probably important.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very.
unidentified		But I was wondering also, will it will the same thing happen in the the Antarctic?
unidentified		So that means that the safest place to be on Earth then is on the equator.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've already lost several ice sheets in the Antarctic.
		And some of the big ones are considered to be unstable.
		Now, when I say big ones, I mean the ones that are on land.
		The ones that are already in water, it's no big deal.
		It's like ice cubes in water, you know.
		You don't get more.
		But when the big ones on land begin to melt, that also, sir, is very important.
unidentified		Because I have relatives in Japan, so I guess they're in trouble then, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, people in Miami would be in trouble.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I mean, New Orleans, for example, would be in trouble, even without a hurricane.
unidentified		Oh, God, this is scary.
unidentified		Well, thank you very much, Ark, for having me on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does seem scary, doesn't it?
		Thank you very much.
		And what's even scarier to me, or just as scary, is that...
		Honest to God, I'm not.
		But the administration's attitude about what's going on with our climate is reprehensible.
		I mean, it's absolutely reprehensible.
		I understand why they have the attitude.
		He's an oil guy.
		But, I mean, really, these headlines are getting very disturbing.
		Very.
		When they begin using words like irreversible, it should be getting your attention and theirs.
		Instead, they're editing stuff.
		Again, watch 60 Minutes Tomorrow Night.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hey, how are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm okay, sir.
unidentified		Just wanted to say, regarding your cats, I've discovered something with my cats that keep them very occupied, and it was something that I never would have expected.
		But me and my girlfriend just recently bought a Russian tortoise, a baby Russian tortoise, and we have her in a tank, and they are fascinated.
		It's just like they're nature channel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's because the tortoise moves slowly but surely.
unidentified		I think they forget it's a real living thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, but you don't want to let them get at that tortoise.
unidentified		Oh, well, they don't have claws.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, but they do have teeth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And trust me, they would touch, they'd torture that tortoise.
unidentified		Just wanted to say, Art, I want to thank you for staying on this subject here the last few weeks.
unidentified		I think it's a very important subject.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, somebody in this country has got to be talking about it.
unidentified		And that's the thing.
		There's not enough discussion about it.
		I mean, to me, I don't see what there really could be done.
		I don't know what you could do.
		You know, that's not my field by any means.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nor is it mine, sir.
		And I also, I admit, I have no idea, no idea what to do.
		And I don't even know that if we were to stop burning all oil right now, that it would have any effect whatsoever on the changing weather.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Well, I think you and George both do a great service by covering this quite a bit.
		But the reason I called tonight is I'm in Dayton, Ohio.
		My name is Brad, by the way.
		Yes, Brad.
		And I've not been here long.
		I've visited a lot when I was a child, but I've only been here maybe two years.
		And I am right down the street from Wright Pad.
		As a matter of fact, above my home is all military airspace.
		And I've heard stories.
		You know, I know a lot of the things that, I guess, have allegedly went on as far as maybe, you know, like Roswell and them transporting the craft to Wrightfield.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there a lot of talk that goes on in your area about what's going on at Wright Pat?
unidentified		That's the point.
		There's really hardly any.
		Sometimes you will talk to somebody and, oh, well, I heard they've got underground hangars and all this.
		But for the most part, there's really not much of a discussion.
		And you see a lot of MPs.
		You see a lot of different military craft overhead.
		And you can see all of that.
		But I've listened to your show for a little while now, and I've heard quite a bit of mention of Right Pat on your show.
		And my question to you was, just based on your knowledge, what do you think they've got going on there?
		And I'll take your answer off the air.
		Thank you for taking my call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, what I see is a small cell.
		And I see a creature with large, pointy ears restlessly moving about the cell.
		This creature is probably about middle-aged now for an alien.
		And yeah, we're still keeping them.
		Hell, sir, the answer is I have no idea what they've got there.
		Any more than I know what's right next to me here at Area 51.
		And strangely here, not a lot of people talk about it.
		I mean, we have, you know, Area 51 Fireworks.
		It's a fireworks shop named after Area 51.
		And we're right adjacent to this infamous site.
		And I don't have the slightest idea what's there any more than I do what's at Wright Pat.
		Probably something, though.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yeah, Art, this is Adam from San Juan Islands, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Speaking of facilities, I didn't know how much you knew about the Southwest Regional Spaceport they're putting down in UFOM, New Mexico.
		This is a project sort of gone through Richard Branson, Sir Richard Branson, who also has gotten together with the state of New Mexico and the XPRIZE Foundation to build this facility kind of through Virgin Galactic.
		I'm not sure exactly how all the groups have put this together, but the state of New Mexico signed off an agreement for $250 million in December, and they're going to do space tourism down there, including rocket races and other things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm jealous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wish they'd done it here in Nevada.
unidentified		Well, they chose, I guess they were shooting between somewhere back east, New Mexico and California, and they picked New Mexico for the clear weather and clear airspace.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't blame them at all.
		How'd you like to have to launch something up through L.A.?
		Plus, you know, the Californians are so, I mean, you'd just, you'd never get authorization for something like that.
		But you come here to the sensible, what I call the sensible West, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico.
		Now you're talking.
unidentified		Yeah, too much air traffic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		and clear space out there.
		Now, one other thing I was going to ask you, too.
		I haven't heard a show about the Spaceship One project at all.
		But I was curious, and I know you like contact information, if you could ever get a hold of Bert Rattan, the designer of Spacecraft One.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Love to interview him.
unidentified		And right now they're building five of these things that can hold, I believe, six or seven passengers, one pilot and five or six passengers apiece.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, I'm curious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much would you pay to take a ride in that thing?
unidentified		Well, for my income, it's going to be a while.
		I mean, I'm 22, by the way.
		I've been listening to your show since I was about 11 years old.
		So, you know, I've got a shot at it, of course, and I'm going to definitely go down to UFOM.
		We've got a place down there in New Mexico in Teheras area, pretty close to Richard Hoagland, actually.
		But when we do go back down south, I'm definitely going to go check that out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think I'd do it.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Well, he's got a really good safety record.
		Bert Rattan's designs are very interesting.
		They have extra wing space on everything.
		They're very efficient.
		And so far, he's got a really great safety record.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope it's going to be affordable.
		Thank you.
		Would I take a ride to the edge of space?
		And what would I pay?
		That's an interesting question.
		I suppose it would vary.
		How about you?
		How interested would you be in taking a ride to the edge of space?
		I have the honor of riding in the Concorde.
		That's as close as I've been, about 65,000 feet.
		Now, it's pretty cool up there, I'll tell you that, in more ways than one.
		But you can see the curvature of the Earth at 65,000 feet.
		You can see the very, very black above you and the purple beside you.
		And that's near the edge of the edge.
		And I thought that was pretty cool.
		But going all the way up to the edge.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
		Hi, Ad.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		My name's Robert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Robert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm calling from the East Coast, Boston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boston?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Huh?
unidentified		I just want to take you on with the war.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Home of Denny Crane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The war.
unidentified		Who?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Danny Crane.
unidentified		Who's Denny Crane?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't ever ask that.
		Doesn't matter, sir.
		Go ahead.
		Take me on about the war.
unidentified		Well, you tell me where you stand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know where you stand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I stand confused.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Confused about why we did it.
unidentified		Now, you stated before, why did we start the war?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I puzzled about why.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think?
unidentified		No, no.
unidentified		You said, why did we start the war?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, why?
unidentified		We didn't start the war.
unidentified		We started in 1991, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, this one, though.
unidentified		No, no.
		This is a continuation.
		You forget there's a beginning, a middle, and an end.
		No.
		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you can't sell that one of my.
		Come on.
		You can't sell that.
unidentified		Ah, the facts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Give me a break.
		Come on.
		We declared victory and we left.
unidentified		Ah, the facts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sir, the facts are we left.
unidentified		No, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		War was over.
unidentified		No, the United Nations.
		Oh, yeah.
		Remember them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, all right.
		Let's talk about the United Nations.
		Do you like them?
		Let's talk about them.
unidentified		Let's talk about them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
		All right.
		Now, the weapons of mass destruction.
unidentified		Yes, go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about those?
unidentified		They're there, I guarantee you.
unidentified		And we'll find them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But we actually found Saddam himself.
		He was in a little hole in the ground.
		And we found him.
		And we've had much longer now.
		And these weapons of mass destruction, by their very nature, are big.
		Yes.
unidentified		If I give you seven months to do something, I guarantee you you could hide it in the state of Nevada.
		If I gave you a seven-month start, I guarantee you.
		So let's assume.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But wait, wait a minute, sir.
		Sir?
		There's this big open question.
unidentified		Go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you're Saddam Hussein and you've got half a million U.S. troops coming at you, right?
		And the biggest air show, shock and all, and all the rest of it coming at you.
		See, if you're not, if you're going to, if you have those weapons, that's when you're going to use them because otherwise you know you're dead meat.
unidentified		How do you know that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, because we're the United States, sir, and we're going to kick his butt, which, of course, we did.
unidentified		And who started this war, though?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This one?
unidentified		No, I did.
unidentified		No, see, you can't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, sir, I can't.
unidentified		Oh, you can't disconnect.
unidentified		No, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This war is not...
unidentified		You're afraid of the truth, Ott.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
unidentified		You're afraid of the truth.
unidentified		I know you want to go to the Star Wars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, you are the one bending history here, brother.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We left.
unidentified		No, no.
unidentified		We won.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We kicked them out of Kuwait.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We did exactly what we said we'd do.
unidentified		You're forgetting a component.
unidentified		And there was a component why we left.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that was.
unidentified		And they had to follow certain things, right?
unidentified		Yes or no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What now?
unidentified		1991, Art, 1991.
		What about it?
		When the war stopped in 1991.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, why did we go to war back then?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was because of the invasion of Kuwait and probable invasion of Saudi Arabia, right?
unidentified		It's about oil, Art.
		Oh.
		Yes, I'm not afraid of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did I hear you correctly?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you repeat that, please?
unidentified		I'm not afraid to say it's about oil.
unidentified		Did you walk to work today?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Say it again.
unidentified		Did you walk to work today?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's about oil.
unidentified		Are you telling me that you want the people with a mindset that would kill themselves like they do in control of the oil?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If it comes rolling off your lips so easily, then how come it can't come rolling off the lips of our president?
unidentified		It's about oil.
		You're not going to do anything.
		You want it both ways.
		That's not against the war.
		You're just against Bush.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm not against Bush.
		And you know what else?
		I'm not even against the war, sir.
		As a matter of fact, if they'd come out and they'd actually said something like, well, I don't know, yeah, we need oil.
		We absolutely have got to have oil.
		In Iraq, but we didn't.
		Hey, Corporal, look, a nuke.
		Weapon of mass destruction.
		But we didn't do that.
		That's to our benefit.
		Listen again, I want to remind you after this weekend, I'm going to jump for a brief change of scenery, so I'll be gone for a couple of weekends.
		And Oh, oh, while we're on that subject, if you're listening out there, Ms. Producer, how about rerunning one of the early, maybe even the first, interview with Colonel Philip Corso?
		I think that that was one of the more important interviews that I ever did.
		Top ten for sure.
		And Colonel Corso knew he was at the end of his life, and he told us the story of what he did.
		You know, he exchanged alien technology.
		He slowly integrated it into the modern day world.
		And if you believe Colonel Corzot and I tend to, then a lot of things that we have today, we can thank Roswell for.
		That was an important interview.
		And I think if you're going to rerun an interview during my change of scenery here, why, that would be certainly one hint, hint, hint to rerun.
		Coming up now in a moment, Nick Pope.
		Now, this ought to be good.
		I mean, he used to run the British government's UFO project at the Ministry of Defense.
		He was initially skeptical, as I'm sure he should have been, to do this.
		His investigation of newly reported UFO incidents and access to government files on the subject soon convinced him that the phenomenon raised very important national security issues.
		I love that one.
		Especially when the witnesses were military pilots or where UFOs were actually tracked on radar, Nicolzo looked into other mysteries such as alien abductions, crop circles.
		So we'll ask about all of this.
		He now continues his research in a private capacity, is recognized as a leading authority, of course, on UFOs and the unexplained.
		He's done extensive media work, has lectured all around the world, has acted as consultant on several TV documentaries.
		Now, I've always wondered, the U.S. has always said, whatever they are, they're not a threat to national security.
		And I've always wondered how the U.S. government defines national security.
		If an object racing at 25,000 miles an hour traverses your atmosphere and the fastest gun you have will not shoot it down and the fastest airplane you have can't possibly catch it then how is it that our government or any government defines national security in the first place?
		Nick Pope coming up to answer that question, I'm sure, in a moment.
		So what it boils down to, I think, is Nick Pope essentially ran the equivalent of Project Blue Book in Great Britain.
		And as a matter of fact, that's where he is right now, Great Britain somewhere or another.
		Where are you, Nick?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I am indeed.
		I'm in London.
		So it's 7.15 in the morning here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		7.15 in the morning?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Sunday morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for getting up early on a Sunday morning.
		That's very nice of you.
		Saturday night still here at about 11.14.
		So is that a fair statement, first of all, Nick, that you essentially ran the program in Great Britain that was equivalent to our blue book?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		That's absolutely correct.
		I mean, the terms of reference for the British government's UFO project are really identical to the old United States Air Force project.
		It was basically as simple as look at all the UFO sightings reported to the department, be they by public or military sources, evaluate them, investigate to the best of your ability, and see whether you think there's evidence of any threat to the defense of the country, anything, as it were, of any defense significance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it always comes down to that, Nick, and that leads me right back to what I was saying before I came to you, and that is the United States has sort of always laid back in the end and said, well, whatever they are, they're not a threat to national security.
		And, you know, that's so cool that they would say that.
		If an object's doing 25,000 miles an hour through the atmosphere and we can't catch it, we can't shoot it down, we can't figure out who it is, and we can't stop them, and that doesn't constitute a threat to national security, then what does?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you said that in your introduction, I kind of winced a little bit here because I thought, how can I actually go any better than the answer you've just given?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		There's really not much I can do except agree with the assessment you've just made.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, yes, yes.
		So maybe what they mean is, yeah, there's objects going 25,000 miles an hour.
		No, we can't catch them.
		No, we can't shoot them down.
		But on the other hand, they haven't shot at us yet.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Therefore, they're not a threat.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		It's a sort of negative assumption, isn't it?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		And in a sense, it's rather disturbing because if somebody rather more powerful than you just hasn't done anything so far, but you don't really know what their intentions are, then it's a fairly big assumption for any intelligence analyst to make.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure is.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		It's not an assumption, for example, that I was comfortable with when I was running the UFA project here in the UK.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was called MODS, is that correct?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Pardon me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		M-O-D-S.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, M-O-D is just Ministry of Defence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ministry of Defence UFO project.
		So what did they actually call it?
		They called it that?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		No, the odd thing is it didn't actually have a formal title at all.
		Oh.
		Although back in 1950, the project has its roots in something called the Flying Saucer Working Party.
		Now that, I mean, that's very interesting.
		If you're interested in a little bit of history and about how one of the greatest figures in the British establishment got involved in this and started the whole thing off, it was the great World War II radar scientist, Sir Henry Tizard, who actually said that UFO sightings shouldn't be dismissed without some form of proper scientific study.
		And he said this in 1950.
		Winston Churchill had brought him back into government after the Second World War in the difficult post-war years.
		And he was a chief scientific advisor.
		So, when the Ministry of Defense's chief scientific advisor is the one setting up your UFO project, I think that's quite interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I should say.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		So, that's where it has its roots.
		And the odd thing is, unlike Blue Book, where you could say it was Project Blue Book before that, Project Grudge, before that, Project Sign, we never gave ours a name.
		So, when I'm talking about the British government's UFO project, I'm just sort of saying what it did, really.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what's the matter with you people that you wouldn't give it a name?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How can a project not have a name?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I know.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		It's slightly odd because to me, every kind of project should have a name, it should have terms of reference, and it should have detailed outputs that are required so that any project manager will tell you that you've got to have output deliverables, and then you get assessed on how well you do against them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Actually, I want to take you off course for just a moment.
		Maybe it's not really off-course, but I'm very concerned with our climate change over here.
		And over here, I mean, we're all experiencing the same possible climate change.
		In fact, Europe could be victim of ocean current change that would freeze you guys.
		And anyway, what I'm getting at is whether you agree or disagree with any of that, so much of the news that I'm getting, Nick, comes from your country, actually, from various publications in Great Britain.
		And all of these climate change things are, as a matter of fact, are coming from Great Britain, and they're not being published here, Nick.
		And I wonder why Great Britain, which really, in our way of thinking as Americans, isn't supposed to be that open, but you guys are publishing all this stuff, and we're not here.
		I don't get it.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I have to say, it's not my area of expertise, but I share your concerns, as do most people here.
		I just think we are a very open society.
		And we have one or two figures, and I'd better not name names, but some senior figures who are concerned about this and who are prepared to speak out and start the debate.
		And I think that's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what I'm saying.
		It is happening in Britain, and it's being published.
		But here, not so much.
		And we're the great open, free America.
		But I've got to read these articles from Britain to get anything out.
		It's odd.
		And really, it may relate to the UFO topic as well.
		I mean, many countries seem more open about it than does America.
		Even France.
		My God, France, of all countries.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		France is quite open.
		Italy is quite open.
		I went to a conference a couple of years back, and the Italian Air Force sent a delegation in full uniform to give a presentation.
		Now, you don't see that in many countries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you don't.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Even Brazil, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even the Vatican.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's a lot of openness there.
		And I think, to a certain extent, I think the Internet and the increasingly global nature of our societies is pushing this in the right direction and giving us a more global mindset than purely national.
		And that, of course, I think is a good thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		First of all, I guess we ought to have a base of operations here, and that would be in the years, Nick, that you ran this operation.
		I mean, the obvious, very important question is, what were the more interesting things that you investigated?
		And can you tell us a few stories from those years and how they really turned out?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Certainly.
		I received about 200 or 300 UFO reports each year whilst I was doing the job in the early 90s.
		And of course, like any other UFO researcher, like a civilian UFO researcher, and like my predecessors both in Britain and America, most of them turned out to be misidentifications.
		The figures that I would say are most accurate is to say about 80% I could explain very well as aircraft lights, weather balloons, satellites, meteors, all the usual things.
		Another 15% probably went into the insufficient data category, leaving a 5% of extremely interesting cases.
		Pardon me, one case that we were looking at, and it happened just before my watch, but I saw the report from the pilot, was on 5th of November 1990, a half squadron of Royal Air Force fast jets were crossing the North Sea, and they were overtaken by a UFO.
		And they were talking to Dutch military air traffic control about that.
		And they described a sort of large metallic object of some sort, and they actually had to take evasive action.
		So again, it's interesting, talking what you mentioned in your introduction about defense significance, there's a whole subset of ufology which we could get into about the flight safety implications of this.
		And I've seen files with our civil aviation authority talking about some terrifying near-misses between aircraft, both civil and military.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard the same stuff, Nick, out of Mexico that Mexican authorities have talked about.
		Not only near-misses, but maybe even one collision with a civilian airliner in Mexico.
		I mean, just, you know, not a fatal collision, but with some damage.
		And I mean, so this stuff is incredible.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes, there was a case from 1995.
		A passenger airliner was coming into Manchester Airport here in England, and a UFO suddenly effectively crossed the front of the aircraft.
		And the pilot instinctively grabbed for the control stick.
		Had he made that sharp, evasive maneuver, the UFO actually went before he could complete it.
		But his Instinct was to throw the stick violently to the side because he feared a collision.
		As I say, if he'd actually made that maneuver, he could have crashed the aircraft.
		And a friend of mine who sadly died last year, but there was a man called Graham Shepard, a senior British Airways pilot, and he lobbied the Civil Aviation Authority here in Britain to include in the pilot's training syllabus some material about UFOs so that air crew were at least ready for these things to occur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm curious, did he ever get that in?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		That's something that I'm trying to follow up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or more interestingly, even, perhaps, would be what would the recommendations be?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you encounter a UFO, do the following.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I think the first thing is almost before you get to the UFO encounter, to make sure that air traffic control is properly looking out for uncorrelated targets.
		And again, it disturbed me.
		I spoke, obviously, predominantly to military radar experts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		And very often, these were people that I would enlist in my investigations, of course, because one of the first questions in any UFO investigation in the military is, was it tracked on radar?
		And I would have radar tapes impounded and sent to me.
		But you know, I heard many times people say, well, we get these fireballs on our radars from time to time.
		They come in, they do speeds of, say, 20,000 miles an hour, and then they just disappear.
		And I said, how do you know that they're fireballs?
		And the answer was, well, because they go very fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was it, huh?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		There's a fundamental mindset there, which is, you know, it couldn't possibly be anything else.
		But there's no proof.
		There's no way of knowing what it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you're quite right.
		I mean, unless they find an impact point, and then they can say, oh, gee, look, a meteorite.
		Otherwise, something going that fast, you know, is automatically said to be a meteorite or whatever.
		And I've always said, how do you know it's a meteorite?
		And, you know, that stops people cold.
		They go, well, you know, actually, I don't.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		But going back to your question, I think what I would tell pilots is, generally speaking, if you see a UFO, it's probably got greater speed and maneuverability than you.
		And I'm sure it doesn't want to crash.
		In a sense, the advice is probably do nothing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the risk is making a violent evasive maneuver that's going to actually endanger the aircraft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, you're absolutely right.
		And from a UFO's point of view, I suppose, we must be dangerous because when they get near us, we do violent maneuvers.
		I guess it's sort of human nature, as you point out, to grab the stick and try to avoid what otherwise is going to happen.
		And eventually, that's going to result in some sort of collision.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I'm going to, it's on my list of extremely urgent things to do to check that this material that Graham Shepard was wanting incorporated has been incorporated somewhere.
		Because, of course, pilots, I've spoken to many, many civil and military pilots, and they see UFOs a lot.
		But there are huge under-reporting issues here.
		Many, many pilots, particularly Air Force pilots, took me aside and said to me, you know, I've seen these things, and I've heard some fascinating accounts, not of lights in the sky.
		I mean, I'm talking about metallic craft doing speeds and maneuvers we can't possibly approach.
		And I say, where's the report?
		And very often they'll say, well, I didn't really make one because I wouldn't have known what to said.
		I would possibly have been questioned as to whether I'd been seeing things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, that part of it's really got to stop.
		I mean, the intimidation that goes with, I mean, pilots, after all, these are good careers, whether they're military or civilian.
		They're either very prestigious or they're very high-paying.
		And who wants to report one of those things?
		I mean, it's career-ending or at least career-limiting.
unidentified		Yeah.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I had one person say to me, and he made a joke of it, but it's a comment that sticks in my mind all these years later.
		An Air Force pilot said to me, I didn't want to be known as Flying Saucer Fred in the officer's mess.
		So when you've got that mindset, it's difficult because, of course, those are probably the best sorts of UFO reports you could have got from trained observers such as pilots.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Music If you're just tuning in, what the hell's wrong with you?
		This is important stuff.
		You should have been here some time ago.
		We've got Nick Pope here.
		He's a guy who ran the equivalent of Project Blue Book in Great Britain, and that's where we've got him on the phone from right now, is Great Britain.
		And he mentioned metal, and, you know, that's an important one for me.
		If you get a pilot reporting a metallic UFO, in other words, you didn't just see a light, maybe you saw something big, you saw a disc or whatever, and you really saw it, and you're a pilot and you reported that.
		Serious stuff.
		What kind of reports in that category, Nick, have you had?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, several.
		And one that stands out in my mind, and this goes back to your question about interesting UFO incidents that happened on my watch, is that in March 1993, we had a massive wave of UFO sightings in the UK, particularly on the 30th and the 31st of March.
		And UFOs were seen all around the country, and the descriptions were fairly common.
		We were talking about our old friend, the triangular-shaped craft, which, of course, is very much a feature in our skies, so it seems.
		Is it?
		And this UFO was seen, as I say, all around the country, but it was particularly noteworthy that it flew directly over two military bases in the Midlands.
		Yes.
		REF COFORD and REF Shawbury.
		And it was seen by a patrol of Air Force police officers at the first military base.
		They made an official report to me afterwards.
		And the interesting thing is then it headed towards the other base, which was just a few miles away.
		And the meteorological officer there took a phone call to say there's a UFO coming your way.
		And the base was pretty much shut down at night.
		It was just a skeleton crew.
		So he walked out of his office and looked across the fields.
		And sure enough, he saw a bright light in the distance.
		And this thing got closer and closer until he saw that it wasn't a light, but it was the lights on the underside of a massive triangular-shaped craft.
		And I asked him to estimate the size, and with typical military precision, he picked two aircraft.
		He said midway in size between a C-130 Hercules transport aircraft and a Boeing 747 jumbo jet.
		I think in my initial notes, I just wrote big.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's the reason I'm laughing, Nick, because I saw one of them.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Oh, wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, real close, Nick.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm extremely envious of you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Real close, Nick.
		I mean, my wife and I were on the way home from Las Vegas one night, and she turned around and said, what the hell's that?
		And I stopped the car in the desert where you could hear crickets at a quarter mile, and this thing flew straight over our head and out toward Area 51, Nick.
		And it made no sound.
		The moon and the stars went away above us.
		It was that big.
		I felt like I could have thrown a rock at it, Nick.
		It made no noise whatsoever, absolutely silent.
		And we stood and just watched it sail.
		And that's the word I'd use, sail, because it wasn't flying.
		It wasn't supported by aerodynamic flight.
		It was floating either because of anti-gravity or lighter than air.
		I have no way of knowing.
		But it didn't look at all earthly to me.
		And that's how close it was.
		That's why I was laughing because I was as close as you can get to one.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, the meteorological officer, he said this thing was about 200 feet above the ground and maybe another 200 feet to the side.
		So it didn't come directly over his head.
		And a really interesting feature of this case is he said how slow this craft was going to start with.
		But I'm going to tell you the story, and you may laugh again because I think these are things that you'll recognize maybe from your own sighting, but certainly from descriptions that some of your other guests have given.
		But this is from a military report made to the government's UFO project here.
		He said this thing was going maybe no more than 20 or 30 miles an hour.
		There was a narrow beam of light, he said, firing down from this craft and just sweeping across the fields.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That I didn't see.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, he said it was almost as if the thing was looking for something.
		He said there was a faint sound.
		He didn't hear it at first, but it was a low-frequency humming sound.
		He said it was one of those sounds that you could feel as well as hear, and he said it was quite disturbing.
		And suddenly, the beam just flicked off, and the craft shot away.
		He said suddenly, from just 20 or 30 miles an hour, it accelerated away to the horizon.
		Now, this guy is in the Air Force, and he said, well, significantly faster than a fast jet.
		And that was the story of what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's one hell of a story.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		And there's an extremely interesting little postscript about that.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I could talk for the rest of the show about the investigation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Rock on.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
		Well, I launched a full investigation, of course.
		I enlisted the Defense Intelligence staff here in the UK, who we worked with on investigations.
		We couldn't come up with anything that could explain this.
		We pushed it up the chain of command, of course.
		It ended up on the desk of the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff, a two-star Air Force officer.
		He again had no explanation.
		Everyone was extremely interested, but totally puzzled.
		But you know, the interesting little postscript to this is that something about this kind of, you know, niggled at the back of my mind.
		There was something that I was struggling to remember about all this that I thought might be important.
		And then suddenly, I remembered.
		It was the same night, 30th and 31st of March, but 1990, that the UFOs had famously flown over Belgium and the F-16s had been scrambled.
		So this thing had come back, you know, three years later on exactly the same night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, isn't that interesting?
		I don't know why, but it's certainly a coincidence that...
		Oh, okay.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		But my theory was that I don't know what you call it in the States, but 1st of April, we call April Fool's Day.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		And it's a day when sometimes everyone plays jokes on each other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have that too, Nick.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, these UFO sightings happened too late on the 30th to get into the papers On the 31st, so if the story had run, it would have run on the 1st of April.
		And who would pay attention to a UFO story running on the 1st of April?
unidentified		Nobody.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		So perhaps it's the one night that you can really get away with flying so obviously, blatantly over someone's military facilities and get away with it.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		That was my theory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's as good as any, Nick.
		As good as any.
		But you know, this thing that I saw, Nick, there is no way that it was ours.
		There is no way that it was earthly.
		It just wasn't, Nick.
		No, I thought I knew it when I saw it.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		If we had those sorts of things for real, well, you know, we wouldn't be driving motor cars and taking seven or eight hours to fly across the Atlantic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Quite correct.
		We would have a new, I mean, beyond that, we'd have a new power source.
		Certainly the Earth is starved for some sort of alternative to oil, and a drive that can do what that apparently was doing would probably solve that problem as well.
		So this is big stuff, very, very important stuff.
		Is it your feeling, Nick, that your government and my government know about all of this, that we have encountered and made some kind of deal with these beings, whoever it is, or what do you think the state of knowledge is in our governments?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		My honest answer to the question about the American government is I have no idea.
		I could never get any access.
		Even I could never get anything other than the party line, which is we're not in this game anymore and haven't been since Blue Book was shut down in 1969.
		In my own government, where I can speak, I hope, with some degree of authority, my view, my feeling is that there is not a cover-up, that there's not any knowledge that these things are real.
		I think we're searching for answers.
		There are certainly many people in government, in the military, who are prepared to look at this with an open mind, but it's not my feeling that somewhere there's someone here that knows about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me ask you this then.
		Is it your view and the view of a lot of Brits that the American government does know about it, has made contact, and does know a hell of a lot more than it's saying?
		I mean, do the British suspect the American government of knowing what they don't?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people do, but I'd better not answer that question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, why not, Nick?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Because, of course, I still work for the Ministry of Defense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, maybe you better not.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I just can't answer or speculate on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just whisper it in my ear, Nick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that a lot of people in Great Britain do, I mean, you can answer it this way: do you think they suspect the American government knows much more than anybody's been told?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		That's a fairly widely held belief, yes.
		As to whether it's a belief within government here, I would say probably not.
		But that said, don't let me imply in any way that many, many people in government, in the military, in intelligence, don't actually believe this.
		They do.
		They certainly believe even in the possibilities of an extraterrestrial reality.
		It's just that it's a difficult subject to talk about.
		But, you know, this is one of the things that I think with all of this, you know, a lot of listeners may be saying, well, so what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, I just heard you get very cautious, Nick.
		And so I guess I want to ask, how many things are there that you would react just that way to if I were to ask about them?
		Things that you just cannot talk about that's in some way related to ufology?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		There are several such things, but I promise you, there's nothing that if I said it, you would say, well, he seen one of these things in a hangar somewhere or seen a file that explains what it's all about.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		To the best of my knowledge, we don't have anything like that in the UK.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But isn't that what you'd have to say?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		No, I would probably say no comment.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		So I'm giving you a definitive answer and saying I have not seen these things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, so then if I were to ask you, does Great Britain have an ET at some secret location captured?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You wouldn't say no comment.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I would not say no comment.
		No, I would answer your question and say, to the absolute best of my knowledge, no.
		Now, of course, people might say, well, maybe Nick was out of the loop.
		People might say, maybe the United Kingdom was out of the loop.
		And of course, I really can't prove a negative on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you ever have a feeling when you were doing your job, heading up essentially Blue Book in Britain, that you were being a Patsy, Nick?
		Did you ever have that feeling, that you were just sort of a store dressing, that you were there to do what we think Blue Book did, which was to just sort of wash the whole thing away?
		Did you ever feel like you were being assigned to do that, Nick?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I didn't, because I was receiving military reports as well as public reports, and I worked very, very closely with the Defense Intelligence staff and the sorts of people who conspiracy theorists.
		theorists here say must have been doing the real UFO job.
		Well, in fact, we were in and out of each other's offices all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk about the triangle for a second.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was there ever any indication for...
		from your military or from intelligence people in Great Britain?
		And you're never going to be able to answer this, even if you know the answer to it, but that these triangular craft could be our own.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, Britain, like America, of course, has prototype aircraft and UAVs being developed and being test-flown.
		But the bottom line is we know where we fly our own bits of kit.
		But there is an interesting postscript to the story, which I think will answer your question.
		Part of my investigation into these 1993 sightings did involve our contacting the American government through the embassies.
		And we put the question to them, look, we've had this sighting.
		Do you have a vast triangular-shaped hypersonic craft that can do these things?
		And the American government said, no, do you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they come back and say, No, we don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		This was the interesting thing.
		The reason they were asking, of course, is because in places like Hudson Valley, they'd had sightings of these things as well.
		They were asking, they took the opportunity to ask if the Royal Air Force had such a craft.
		And we just smiled and said, well, we wish we did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that exchange public anywhere?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I think I have one half of it.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I'll try and post it on my website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		It has been released under Freedom of Information.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I think there's one paper that we're still waiting for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know offhand who in the American government responded to that particular, you say it was done at the embassy level?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I don't have the names, no, but I can check my own notes and see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fascinating.
unidentified		So, no, we don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Honestly, was a response.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		paraphrasing it, but that's certainly what was relayed to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so.
		Having seen it personally, I do believe that the odds are very heavily that it was an extraterrestrial craft.
		And by the way, the newspaper reports with regard to the object that I saw, Nick, came out, oh, I don't know, about a week later in our newspaper.
		Many people, not just myself and my wife, had seen this, but many people here in the valley.
		And they contacted the military, and the military's response was really funny.
		The newspaper article said yes.
		The military said there had been a secret mission which may have overflown the Prump Valley, where I live here, and that the aircraft involved was a C-130.
		And I laughed and laughed and laughed.
		I flew in C-130s, and of course, if it were that far over your head, it would rattle your teeth with the noise.
		It wasn't quiet.
		But that's what they said.
		It was a C-130 on a secret mission, Nick.
		That's embarrassing.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's almost as strange as suggesting that the Rendlesham Forest UFO was a lighthouse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And it's those kind of responses by government agencies that make us all so suspicious that they do have knowledge, because that's just stupid.
		I mean, it's just ignorant.
		It's an ignorant response, Nick.
		It's embarrassingly ignorant.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I'd better not comment on the specific, but what I can tell you is that I've been trying in Britain to raise awareness of these issues, not just with the public and the media, but within government and the military.
		And I just had an article published in the Ministry of Defence's magazine called Focus about the UFO project and about the Rendlesham Forest UFO.
		And one of the things we did is we got published the sketches of the Rendlesham UFO that Jim Penniston made really to nail the lie that this was lights.
		It wasn't lights.
		It was a craft.
		You know, the drawing from the official United States Air Force witness statement makes it quite clear this is a craft, right down to symbols seen on the side of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no kidding.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		And of course, the British government has released, under the Freedom of Information Act, now our act has only been on the statute book for just over a year, but we've already released the file on the Rendlesham Forest issue, including the fact that the Defence Intelligence staff assessed the radiation readings taken from the landing site.
unidentified		Music Well, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The UFO in the forest, that sounds like it was a big story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wembleton, is it?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Rendlesham.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wendlesham, thank you.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		The Rendlesham with an R. I got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Talk about it.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, this is, without doubt, Britain's most famous UFO case.
		It's certainly the most compelling evidence for an exotic explanation.
		And we've just got through the 25th anniversary of this fascinating incident.
		And it made a lot of media coverage here, which is interesting in itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not here, Nick.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that's a great shame.
		But I had been working very hard to promote this anniversary.
		And in fact, I was commissioned by one of the national newspapers here in Britain, the Daily Express, to write a full-page feature on this.
		And that was very successful.
		There was also a lot of radio coverage, some television coverage, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then obviously you're in a unique position to tell us all about it.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		The story is that in December 1980, effectively on Christmas night, a patrol of United States Air Force security officers at the twin bases of Bentwaters and Woodbridge in Suffolk saw lights in the forest and they thought that an aircraft from these bases, these were American Air Force bases in Britain.
		They thought that maybe one of the aircraft had crashed.
		So they went out to investigate and to initiate a search and rescue operation.
		They didn't find a crashed aircraft.
		They found a landed UFO, a small triangular-shaped craft, which was maneuvering through the trees.
		And at one point, this thing actually touched down in a clearing.
		And this is hugely important because this is where some of the best evidence came.
		And effectively, one of them, Jim Penniston, there were three people in the patrol, Jim Penniston got close enough to touch the side of this craft.
		So, you know, this is for all the people who say, well, it was a meteor or just the lights of the lighthouse.
		No, this was something that you could reach up and touch the side of.
		And there are sketches in the official witness statement, the United States Air Force documentation, showing the craft and showing some symbols on the side of it, which I can only liken to Egyptian hieroglyphs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very much like the symbols.
		And of course, I actually have heard this story before, Nick, but I'm kind of comparing notes here on what I heard and what I'm hearing now, and it's very much the same.
		But hieroglyphic-type things?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Again, they're widely available on the Internet.
		I just posted them on my own site.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How similar in nature to the hieroglyphics described From Roswell?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I'd have to do a comparative analysis.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I'm just trying to recall, and I haven't got the Roswell material in front of me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, there isn't Roswell material.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I interviewed Jesse Marcel Jr.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm just trying to think of that I-beam and the I-beam, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He described them actually as hieroglyphic-like.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I have seen the representation of that, but I'm afraid I can't recall the details well enough to say how much it has in common.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How specifically are what's on the side of the craft there in Great Britain, the one you're talking about, how specifically accurate are the representations we have of what was written on that craft?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I believe they're accurate because Jim Penniston had his police notebook with him at the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		And he was actually able to sketch the thing contemporaneously.
		When he then got back to the base, he took his notebook and, of course, frankly, his hand had been shaking, I think.
		The drawings in his notebook are a little bit wobbly, but he immediately wrote up a better version.
		And so I think, given that this was sketched at the time by a security policeman, I think there is a fairly high degree of certainty that he got it pretty close.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I could not agree more, and I sure would like to see a copy of that shown to Jesse Marcel.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that would be interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, wouldn't it ever?
		I wonder if it is the same.
		I wonder if you'd say, yeah, that's it.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, as I say, I've posted it on my website in the photographic section.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So he can have a look.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		So he could just go in.
		It's nickpope.net.
		It's as simple as that.
		And the Rendlesham sketches are there.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So this thing actually came down and then its relative size was small.
		How big?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Pretty small.
		Nothing like the craft that we were talking about in the previous hour.
		This thing was probably no more than maybe four or five feet across and maybe nine or ten feet tall.
		Kind of almost like, dare I say, a lunar landing module, something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or perhaps a robotic craft of some sort.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, very possibly.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		And as I say, this thing actually touched down and the indentations where this thing had landed were still there the following morning when they reinvestigated the landing site and they plotted it out and it formed the shape of an equilateral triangle suggesting that the thing had been on some sort of tripod-like landing legs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The quality of the witnesses, there were three total witnesses to it, is that correct?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually seeing it on the ground?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Jim Penniston, John Burroughs, and Ed Kavanasag.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now were these military men?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		They were, yes.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		All United States Air Force from, I think, the 81st Security Police Squadron.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My God.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		So these were the sort of security law enforcement cops, basically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		I mean, something of this magnitude, obviously, can't be just brushed away.
		Did they actually do radiation readings?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		They did, yes.
		They took a Geiger counter out to the landing site and they got higher than average readings.
		And the readings peaked, it won't surprise you to learn, in the three holes where this thing had come down.
		Now, these readings were then sent to the Ministry of Defense, and again, the Defense Intelligence staff looked at them and their assessment, and again, this is now a matter of public knowledge.
		This is in no way me telling a story that can't be backed up by the officially released papers.
		They're all out there.
		The Defense Intelligence staff said that the readings taken were, quote, significantly higher than background, unquote.
		And it goes on to talk about the figures.
		And it's higher by a factor of about seven.
		Now, this wasn't high enough to pose a danger to any of the people there, but it's evidentially significant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, sure, of course it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Since you know the details of the story, one obvious question is, when you see something of this magnitude, you see a craft on the ground, my God, don't you immediately call in the cavalry?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		These people almost like a lot of witnesses that I've spoken to, and I've spoken to hundreds of UFO witnesses, not just members of the public, but police and military.
		And there's nothing, although the military are generally, of course, pretty good witnesses, they're human beings, and I think they react in exactly the same way.
		They were kind of in a state of almost shock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure that's true.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		And I won't say they froze, but they were certainly just mesmerized by this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any indication at all, Nick, that they were actually perhaps directly affected in some manner?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anything like that?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		There are some hints and clues, and certainly I've subsequently seen some interviews with Jim Penniston, and it's quite clear it's affected him quite deeply.
		But, you know, the interesting thing about all this is this wasn't just these three people that saw it, because it came back on the following night.
		And on that occasion, there were many, many more witnesses, including a man who I'm sure you and your listeners have heard a lot about, Colonel Charles Holt.
		And what happened was, Holt, of course, knew about these UFO sightings, and it was he who had the witness statements drawn up, the sketches formally recorded.
		And he was at a function the following evening, and the door burst open, and a young airman rushed up to him, and he said, sir, it's back.
		And Holt looked a bit confused, and he said, what?
		What's back?
		And the person said, the UFO.
		The UFO is back, sir.
		So Holt threw together a small team of about half a dozen people and they went out into the woods.
		He took, again, a guide decounter with him.
		He took a tape recorder, and he's recorded his progress through the crime scene, if I can call it almost a crime scene, because that's almost the mentality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So with a recorder.
		Yes.
		Where are these recordings?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Again, they're all in the public domain.
		They're fairly widely available.
		And the genuine tape recording, I think sometimes, you know, I've seen documentaries on this case.
		And in America, this case is sometimes known as the Bentwaters case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		That's the name of one of the two military establishments.
		This tape recording is played, but I think sometimes people don't stress enough this is not a reconstruction.
		This is actually the real thing that was recorded on that night way back in 1980.
		And he talks about the craft coming their way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long is the recording?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		It's about 17 minutes, but he was hitting the stop button every now and then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have that recording?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't have the capacity to play it on the phone, do you?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I'm afraid not.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, what a shame.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		But it's widely available on the Internet.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		If any of your listeners after the show...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would you suggest?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where did they go?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		There's a site, I think it's Rendlesham-Incident.co.uk.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		And you can listen to the tape recording there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You want to spell that for us, please?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		It's R-E-N-D-L-E-S-H-A-M dot, sorry, hyphen incident.co.uk.
		So Rendlesham-Incident.co.uk.
		Alternatively, if you just go onto Google and search on something like Charles Holt, and that's H-A-L-T, and tape recording, something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		And you'll find it.
		And it talks about light beams coming down.
		It ends up talking about the UFO directly over the base firing light beams down at one of the special storage areas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was there any direct military response?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		No, there wasn't.
		Not as far as I'm aware.
		No one tried to engage this craft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know the answer to that, but knowing the technology of these things, it's probably a good job that they didn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe so, Nick, but you know, somewhere there's a commander who is commander of that base, and he's got an unknown, possibly threatening object above a military base.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So to not respond, it seems to me somewhere along the chain of command, if you could get it from the military, somebody said no.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I think there were two problems.
		The first problem was that for most of this encounter, the UFO was actually out in the forest, and Colonel Holt, who was the senior officer on duty, of course, was there, and they had comms problems.
		Their radios kept cutting out, so it's doubtful that they would have been able to radio back to base.
		That was the first problem.
		The second issue is interesting in itself.
		Because this happened over the Christmas period and at night, you know, there was a fairly limited number of people.
		A lot of the key players were on leave.
		A lot of the key commanders would have probably had to have been gotten up.
		And again, this, as I say, I didn't want to inadvertently mislead anyone.
		The UFO being directly over the base, it only happened very briefly, right at the end of the incident.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about radar?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Inconclusive, the Ministry of Defense looked at the radar tapes for the nights in question.
		But again, some of the radar systems were not switched on.
		And some of the films, some of the radar did seem to be faulty that night.
		Now, I know conspiracy theorists have read a lot into that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, just hearing you say it is, I don't know.
		It's kind of like in this country when they went digging at a very high level for records of the Roswell incident.
		Doggone it, Nick.
		Don't you know those records were, I think the words were inadvertently destroyed or something like that.
unidentified		Yes.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, at least we have our records, but again, one of the records does say that not all the radar equipment was functioning, and some of the equipment that was functioning was not functioning properly.
		So the best thing I can say about that is inconclusive.
		But, you know, recently, I was able to speak with a radar operator at a nearby Air Force base.
		And he said, and again, this is now on the public record, he said that he had received a telephone call from the military base to say that they had an uncorrelated target over the establishment, was there anything on radar?
		He said he looked down at his screen, and just for about 30 seconds, maybe about three sweeps of the radar, he said there was something there, and then it just faded away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've always had two thoughts about this, Nick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One, here in the U.S., why, we already have a craft that can pretty much evade radar.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if they're that far ahead of us and they don't want to be seen on radar, they're not going to be seen.
		And because we already have that technology, if they travel to anywhere, they don't have to be seen.
		So if they're seen, that means they want to be seen.
		That's the only thing I can come to.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I would agree with you on that.
		And it's interesting, again, looking back at some of the things we've spoken about in the earlier part of the show, of course, the Belgium UFO from 1990, that was tracked on radar.
		And, of course, the fact that it was tracked on radar is what caused them to launch the two F-16 fighter interceptors.
		The 1993 sightings that I spoke about weren't tracked on radar, although when I really dug down into it, I did find one or two inconclusive returns.
		I actually looked at the radar data myself, together with an Air Force officer for that.
		We had it downloaded onto VHS video cassette, sent to us.
		And we sat in front of a TV looking at these little dots fade in and out.
		But it was, as I say, it was inconclusive.
		It was nothing like Belgium, where it was solid enough that a fighter controller instantly said, we've got an uncorrelated target in our airspace, launch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Launch?
		Launch the aircraft.
		Oh, this brings us to another important topic, and that is shooting at UFOs.
		Nick, hold tight.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm sure this is going to be a troublesome question, but it's one we've dealt with here in the U.S., and people have very differing views of it all.
		There is actually a view out there, kind of like Bigfoot, that, you know, we should shoot one of them down.
		And then, you know, learn about it.
		And maybe we've already done it.
		At any rate, there is some evidence, certainly, that we have been shooting at UFOs, perhaps even using Star Wars magnitude stuff to shoot at them.
		I mean, there's all kinds of stuff floating around out there, STS pictures and some of the rest of the stuff.
		What's your view, just sort of generally, Nick, on the shooting at these?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, firstly, I should say that I've got nothing to add to this particular debate by way of first-hand knowledge.
		I've seen nothing in the Ministry of Defence that leads me to suggest that Britain has been engaged in any kind of hostile action against UFOs, any attempt to engage them.
		Although, of course, over the years, if we've detected UFOs on radar, we have scrambled aircraft, but these have been generally armed with gun cameras, and the only shooting that we've tried to do is with film.
		But my own view, I mean, just as a human being, is that violence should be the last resort, and really we should only shoot if we're shot at.
		I think trying to shoot down a UFO out of curiosity or anything like that is criminal and suicidal and probably both.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in America we used to have that.
		We used to go by that.
		Only shoot when fired upon.
unidentified		Yeah.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		But you see, if you're dealing with a civilization that's more advanced than our own, and if you're really dealing with a civilization, as many believe, that is capable of interstellar travel, then shooting at them, however good we think our technology is, is probably not a very good idea because they can probably shoot back with bigger and nastier things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I certainly follow that line of thinking, but I do think...
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		We should be talking to them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wouldn't for a second disagree with you.
		It's just that the military, I mean, that's what they do.
		They shoot.
		And they particularly shoot things that they think might be a threat.
		And I'm convinced that, well, when they're over in military bases, or, for example, missile silos here in this country or in the old Soviet Union, I would think the urge to shoot would be absolutely irresistible and that the military probably would do that.
		At the same time, though, I follow your line of reasoning that it would be stupid.
		I just don't think that would stop them.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		You may be right.
		I think it would come down almost to an individual decision from the chain of command.
		And rules of engagement is a whole area which I'd better not get into.
		Generically, rules of engagement.
		I'm not talking about any special rules of engagement with UFOs.
		I just mean sort of judgmental shoot, don't shoot situations.
		It's a difficult area.
		It's a very difficult area.
		But my view is that if any of these UFOs really are craft belonging to extraterrestrial civilizations, we should be reaching out with the hand of friendship and trying to establish a dialogue.
		And let's see what we can learn from each other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nick, out of curiosity, if you were in charge of doing exactly that, reaching out with a hand of friendship, something very unmilitary-like, but nevertheless, you were in charge of trying to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How would you go about it?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I think what I would start With is just information.
		There was an article, and I'm afraid it escapes my memory, pardon me, who it was, but somebody wrote an article, I believe in Scientific American, some years ago, suggesting that SETI, if SETI detects signals from extraterrestrial civilizations, because of the light speed problem, the radio signals won't go any faster.
		So we won't be having two-way conversations.
		But there'll be a kind of galactic internet, a kind of cosmic internet where civilizations effectively put information about themselves out there.
		And I think to answer your question, that's what I would do.
		I would say, this is our art.
		This is our mathematics.
		This is our poetry.
		Now, a lot of that may not translate at all, but our understanding of mathematics would translate, of course.
		That's the truly universal language.
		So I would just put up all the information and say, look, this is us.
unidentified		Now tell us something about yourselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
		If this will drag you off point a little bit, but if a, I don't know, intergalactic civilization were monitoring us, and we have every reason to believe that they probably are.
		I mean, that's what these craft are all about, some sort of monitoring, they would be able to look down on our world and look at what's going on and make certain judgments, even from relatively afar, Nick.
		They could come to some conclusions.
		And, you know, not all of them would necessarily have favorable results for us.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		They wouldn't.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I think Stanton Friedman characterized us as a primitive civilization whose primary activity is tribal warfare.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We do seem to have a lot of people.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I think that Stan's quote.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have a lot of that, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No question about it.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		But for every Hitler, there's a Shakespeare, and for every person who's doing some questionable things, there are people doing charitable works, and people concerned about the environment, and people concerned about animal welfare and such like.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		So I think if someone was truly looking at us, they would see that, well, there's good and bad.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, do you know, I hope you're right, Nick.
		But somebody like Dr. Michio Kaku, who I interview frequently, thinks that the kind of civilization that would produce the craft that would get here, that would be monitoring us right now, might perhaps not regard us any more than we would regard an anthill.
		Some of the ants having come into our kitchen and crawling across the floor.
		So they might not regard us any more than that, and they might step on us without even thinking about it twice.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I accept that there is probably going to be a gulf of technology and that there'll be more advanced, but I don't agree with that because I think that we do display things that would set us apart.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think the good qualities would shine through, Nick?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I think they would, and I think the curiosity as well, the fact that we're doing things like sending space probes to nearby planets and indeed out of the solar system, the fact that we have a SETI program listening, I think it shows that the human spirit is ultimately one of questing, one of adventure, one of trying to reach out for answers.
		And I think even if they're more advanced than us by a big factor, that there's something about that that would say, well, you know, they're explorers too.
		They're adventurers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk a little bit about reaction.
		You mentioned SETI, and I've always been fascinated by that.
		And of course, you're right.
		If we got a signal, in all likelihood, it would be so many light-years away that in our lifetimes, we would not have an opportunity to respond.
		But, Nick, what if instead we had the equivalent of a 50,000-watt broadcast from low orbit saying, Earthlings, look up.
		We're here.
		Now, what kind of reaction do you think that would provoke?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not a psychologist, but I think what I could say is that the world would change forever on that day.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		And people would look back and they would characterize this as there being a time before we knew for sure, and there being a time after we knew that we're not alone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		But further than that, not being a psychologist, I really don't know.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I've heard all the theories, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But Brooks did even more than theories.
		They sort of studied the whole thing.
		And, you know, a faraway signal, oh, that'd be great.
		Fascinating.
		We'd all have a blast with it.
		There'd be no threat.
		But if it were that 50,000 watt from low Earth orbit with an obvious ship attached to it, I think institutions would crumble.
		I think religions would stumble.
		I think that infrastructure would come to a halt.
		I think that all kinds of things would happen because then it would be immediate.
		It wouldn't be something that you'd academically study for the next hundred years and try to decode.
		It would be, oh my God, look, there it is.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I agree with you on that.
		It's the immediacy that would certainly provoke a reaction.
		But at risk of sounding glib, I think that reaction would depend what the message was.
		If it was prepare to be invaded, then I take your point.
		But if it's something like, you're not alone, and we have technology to share with you and we have a welcoming hand to extend, which do you think is the more likely, Nikki?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Obviously, the latter.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I like to think so.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Maybe that's the optimist in me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are an optimist.
		There are others who write Of the other.
		And you've got to admit that there is the possibility that perhaps Earth is pretty rare after all.
		In so many ways, we're a green oasis as we look at different planets and different systems.
		We are quite rare, and perhaps we have a place that would be coveted by others.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I can't dispute that.
		It's a possibility.
		And of course, if we were judging by our own pretty dire record, instances of contact between technologically advanced and less technologically advanced civilizations have not played out very well for the underdog.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not historically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not historically.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		So we're back to optimism.
unidentified		Let's hope they're better than we are.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Morally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, let's hope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At any rate, eventually you left this official project, and the obvious question is why?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I'd just come to the end of my tour of duty.
		There was nothing unusual.
		I just served three years, and actually, at the end of it, I was promoted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		But I would have been moved on a level transfer anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was that for saying something like, well, whatever these are, they're not a threat to national security?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I couldn't possibly comment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry.
		Oh, wait a minute.
		Your answer was I couldn't possibly comment on that?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm joking.
		There was nothing untoward or sinister.
		It was just the regular cycle of postings that you get in government all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people in the audience would certainly like to know that during your tour of duty doing this, was there ever an instance where somebody in greater authority than yourself said, don't report that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		No, there wasn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There never was.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Nor even subtle pressure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like, do you like your job?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, there were some comments along the lines of, I think you've probably spent as much time on that investigation as productive.
		But I don't read that.
		Before you react, I don't read that as anything other than effectively good line management.
		Just saying, look, there comes a point in any UFO investigation where if you're not going to crack it, you're not going to crack it.
		There are other things.
		It wasn't at all sinister.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, there'd be no way of knowing whether that person who had just made that comment to you, which is sort of a suggestion, might have known that you were about to stumble into something gigantic.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I mean, I can't prove that, but I suspect that had that been the case, I wouldn't have been allowed to start the investigation at all, because you never know in an investigation when you are going to stumble across the solution.
		And I was, you know, I was never really obstructed in any way.
		It's just I had other things to be doing, and resources were limited.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you said you got a promotion when you left.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you issue an official conclusion?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Effectively, the conclusions were almost done on a case-by-case basis.
		In other words, they were either explained as whatever it was that we tracked down that in all probability had been seen, or they were unexplained.
		Now, of course, I took my job as being to try and have as few unexplained as possible.
		If I was doing a good investigation, I figured I should be able to get a solution to most of these UFO sightings.
		But, of course, I began to realize, and my conclusion, although it wasn't an official one at the end of the project, was that there are always going to be ones that we can't explain.
		And there is some intriguing evidence that some of these UFOs really are craft.
		They're displaying speeds and maneuvers way ahead of anything that we've got.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nick, that's wonderful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you had actually given that to them as an official sort of wrap-up explanation, do you think you would have been promoted?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Because that wouldn't quite have been the party line.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Although, to be fair, the party line, which you can read on the Ministry of Defense website, is that the department is open-minded about the possibilities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's not bad.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		It's an encouraging statement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		The official statement also says we are aware of no evidence that would support an extraterrestrial conclusion.
		The way I characterize it personally now is there is some evidence, but there isn't proof.
		And I think that's a subtle distinction which is often not made.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, quite right.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I think we've been talking about some of the things that I would constitute as evidence, sightings by trained observers, radiation readings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes.
		See, it's so compelling that I wonder why it didn't force some kind of conclusion statement on your part that, oh, God, I don't know, hinted at something so gigantic, Nick.
		How could you avoid making such a statement?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, we didn't really do end-of-tour reports.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just like you didn't have a name.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
		Maybe we should have done, but we never did.
		It was not the process.
		You just simply, I took over from someone who'd been doing that job, and I handed over to someone who carried on doing that job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, is there anybody of stories to be had about your predecessor or he who followed you?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Not really.
		Very few of them have spoken out in public.
		One of my predecessors, in fact, the head of the division, was a man called Ralph Noyce, and he went on after his retirement from government service to take a great interest in UFOs, crop circles and psychic matters.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well you certainly have spoken out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you concerned when you began speaking publicly, as you are tonight, about all of this, that maybe there'd be repercussions?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, I did wonder whether it would affect my career.
		But I think looking back over the years, and again, I've written about this quite widely, but looking back, even right at the heart of the British establishment, there's been almost a sceptic versus believer debate raging for many years about the UFO phenomenon.
		And many, many senior figures in Britain, great figures like Lord Mountbatten, Earl Mountbatten, Lord Dowding, great establishment heroes have spoken out as to their belief in an extraterrestrial reality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just the nature of the connection with Great Britain now.
		Beyond that, obviously, don't call and say, Nick, my uncle Fred saw a light back in Ohio somewhere.
		Can you tell me what it was?
		Because obviously he's not going to be able to.
		Here we have the man who ran the equivalent of Project Blue Book in Britain.
		So if you have something to ask about his career or about what he's encountered or, you know, something that would make sense to ask Nick, then please bring it on.
		We just gave the numbers, the portals to get in and be part of all this.
		It should be a very interesting hour.
		It all depends on the nature of your questions.
		Coming up.
		The End Once again, Nick Pope.
		And just before we go to the phones, Nick, I want to ask something.
		Most of our world is water, not land, right?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There have been all these reports, Nick, that we've sort of heard rumors about here in the U.S. about these fast walkers, these things that are tracked by national security agencies, whether it be from the ground or satellite, that actually they've seen many of these things traversing the atmosphere at like 25,000 miles an hour, the higher atmosphere.
		And I wonder what you've got from Britain on that sort of thing.
		Have you looked into any of that?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly we've had all sorts of uncorrelated targets on the radar.
		And I was saying earlier about the mindset sometimes is that whether you're looking at a conventional air traffic control radar, whether you're looking at a military radar, or even if you're using, say, the ballistic missile early warning center space tracking radar, all sorts of strange things, as you say, do turn up.
		But if the mindset is that anything that moves incredibly fast must be a fireball, then it's the mindset that you really need to challenge.
		Yes, we do get these things, but until the training manuals say, don't assume, please don't assume that just because it goes that fast, it's a meteor or a fireball, until that change is made, we won't get any answers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's go to the phones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Nick Pope.
unidentified		Good evening, gentlemen.
unidentified		This is Carmen near Cleveland in the great state of Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Mr. Pope, pardon me for being particularly inquisitive.
		It's a rare stage to ask a person of such stature and establishment with questions and the search for truth and clarity.
		But I make a couple assumptions here.
		I assume there are aspects of your distinguished career that, or your previous career, that you're not privy to freely discuss with the public.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I sort of asked him that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He said, well, Nick?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's entirely correct.
		Yes, there are various things that I can't go into.
		But there's nothing that's going to turn anything that I've said on its head.
unidentified		Correct.
		There's no implication through that.
		I assume you were never briefed at any time during your tenure about the existence or even the possibility of extraterrestri intelligence outside of our Earth through physical or tangible or communicative evidence?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		No.
		I never had a briefing that said, we know these things are real.
		I never was shown any artifact and was told this came from a craft.
		Now, I did have a briefing where certainly some people in the Defense Intelligence staff spoke quite openly about the possibilities of these things being extraterrestrial, but they didn't, that briefing was not given from a point of view of we know, but it was more a speculative, look, what else could it be with some of these things?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you said there was somebody in your position previous to yourself, right?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, dating back.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		There are many, many people have held the job dating right back to the 50s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there somebody holding that job now?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		There is, but the slightly, depending on your view, disheartening thing is that we have been a victim of our own openness, if I can say it that way.
		I mentioned earlier our Freedom of Information Act, which only came fully into force just over a year ago.
		Now, it won't surprise you to learn that in terms of the requests made under the Freedom of Information Act to the Ministry of Defense, requests for information about UFOs are right up there in about the top three, alongside things like the Iraq war and various other situations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about answers?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, what kind of answers are people getting?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		People are getting documents.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		There has been a steady program of official disclosure, both at our National Archives and indeed online at the Ministry of Defense's website, and an increasing number of UFO documents are now steadily being published.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, when these documents are requested here in America, we get an awful lot of redaction.
		You know, the big black stuff.
		You get that over there?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		The same rules apply.
		Yes, information should be redacted.
		But so far, the documents that have been released have pretty much been released in full.
		The decision seems to be either release or don't release.
		The sorts of things that are redacted are generally only the names of officials and indeed the names of the witnesses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, we've got a lot more than that redacted.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		I've seen the sorts of documents that, again, researchers like Stan Friedman show around from the NSA.
		But generally speaking, there's a limited, very, very limited redaction in the British documents.
		But going back to the original question, what this has meant is that the section that is involved in the UFO phenomenon is now having to devote virtually all of its time to dealing with these FOI requests.
		And I do not believe that they are really even in the business of research and investigation of the phenomenon anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe the staff needed to answer these requests will grow larger than the staff looking into the problem.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I think that may well be the case, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Nick Pope.
unidentified		Morning, gentlemen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Morning.
unidentified		Yes, this is Bob from Sterman Oaks, California.
		And I've been researching UFO phenomena for over 25 years.
		And a case I was going to tell you about.
		I'm actually a strong supporter in the government keeping UFO phenomena away from the general public, classifying it, because.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because?
unidentified		Because after what I've seen, it would turn our civilization upside down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, why don't you enlarge on that a little bit then?
		What do you mean it would turn civilization upside down?
		What have you seen?
unidentified		Number one, I've worked with people, investigative community, and I've investigated the information UFO phenomena for about 25 years, like I said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you said that already.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What have you seen that would turn civilization upside down?
unidentified		The general population, the military, they have a lot of good thinkers.
		And the general population couldn't have the beginning ability to investigate the phenomena what's going on.
		The surveillance we're under with these, you call them ETs or whatever, what have you, what's going on is beyond our comprehension, a lot of scientific areas, how they're getting here, how they're moving about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just do the best you can with words and try and answer that question, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it you have seen that would turn civilization upside down?
unidentified		First of all, if the government were to tell people that there's another existence, be it a biological robot or extraterrestrial, that were conducting surveillance,
		monitoring us, doing medical research on us, cataloging us, manipulating our events of history, and doing things like securing military bases so they can't perform certain technologies that they're developing, interfering with cities and technologies and so on.
		But the main reason actually I called was basically that in the early 50s, our scientists were investigating UFO phenomenon, and we did actually have one crash that we intentionally used.
		We figured out our scientists, our physicists figured out how they were operating, and we used an oscillated microwave frequency to deorbit one of these things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		To deorbit one of these things.
		Okay, well, who knows?
		Who knows?
		I mean, you get a call like that, Nick, and I don't know what you do with it.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's an old saying in the intelligence community, interesting if true.
		I think that's how I characterize that call.
		I can't evaluate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can't either.
		But, you know, the first part of what he was saying was kind of interesting, and that was that, you know, there could be knowledge out there that simply couldn't be given to the general public.
		And if it was given to the general public, it would have such a horrible impact on all of our social structures that, you know, as he said, if we were being examined medically and sort of dissected every now and then and watched, we just couldn't.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I guess I'd agree with that.
		I guess I'd agree with that.
		All I'd say is that I don't really have any information that would support that hypothesis.
		I mean, I agreed with what Yokoha said about there being some great thinkers in the military, but there are great thinkers in all sorts of other fields, too.
		And I think it's arrogant to assume that only the military would have a take on this.
		I think the civilian scientific community would be able to contribute.
		And, you know, I come back to the point, I think, if we had some of these technologies and had figured out how to use them, I don't know why we'd be doing space shuttles and rockets anymore at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nor do I. East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Nick Pope in Great Britain.
unidentified		Hello?
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Yeah, hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're going to have to yell at us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not very loud.
unidentified		Okay.
		Art, Nick, thank you very much for taking my call.
		Nick, I have a question to ask you about that large triangular craft you saw.
		Yeah.
		The one I saw was up in Franconia Notch, up in New Hampshire, back in 1994, in October.
		I was up there looking at the Milky Way.
		You can actually read a book up in Franconia Notch by the Milky Way.
		That's how bright it is, the stars are at night.
		And it was a totally cold, clear night.
		And this craft blotted out the stars.
		There were no running lights.
		It was easily 300 feet on the side, equilateral triangle, and it appeared to have some type of hemispheric dome on its belly.
		But the curious thing about this, and I really appreciate talking to somebody who's actually an official with some government about this, and you mentioned that you saw one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And your question, sir, is?
unidentified		I noticed nine engines on the side of it, probably 100 feet across on the 300-foot side.
		And when these bright blue engines or whatever they are flashed, it took off like a bat out of hell.
		It was unbelievable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, that's a new one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I haven't heard that described before.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, I should just clarify the situation.
		I haven't seen this thing myself.
		I think I was describing an RAF officer at a base called RAF Shawbury, and he was relaying this to me.
		And then, of course, Art, you were saying about your own.
		Yeah, I take it you've never personally myself, sadly.
		Although I do live in hope.
		I think it's hugely unfair that all you guys have these fantastic sightings.
		And I got to run the government's UFO project, and I haven't seen one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder, Nick, if you had seen one and you had become public about it, whether you would still have the job.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I don't know.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		But, of course, I'm not doing that job now, so, you know, it would be interesting to see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think you could have...
		Yes.
		Could you do the job then?
		From that point forward, could you really do the job?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I probably could not have done the job because I think I could only really do that job effectively if I was coming to each and every case really with an open mind and a blank sheet of paper.
		If I had believed in any of this or had seen something, I don't think I could have been even-handed in my investigations and with great reluctance, because, of course, it was a fantastic job.
		I think if I'd have seen something, I would have had to have placed an official report on the record to ask one of my colleagues to investigate, and then I think I would have had to have asked for a transfer to other duties.
		I think I would have been compromised.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was not very many years, Nick, you know, after I started doing this kind of program that I had my sighting, and I struggled terribly with whether or not to make it public.
		And then when I finally did, I dragged my poor wife in front of the microphone as well and made her confirm everything that I was saying.
		But prior to that, I struggled with it terribly because I discussed this kind of subject matter, and I wasn't sure what it would do to me.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it has affected me.
		There's no way not to be affected.
		Once you've actually seen it close up, your life is never quite the same, ever.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		That's certainly what I understand from my dealings with witnesses, but I'm conscious I haven't answered your caller's original question, which is about the lights and the potential engines, the power source, or whatever.
		Just to describe what was seen in this particular UFO sighting in 1993, and this is a description that I've heard before, is essentially people viewing this from almost directly underneath and seeing an equilateral triangle,
		or in some cases a slightly more elongated triangle, and seeing three lights in each of the corners and one larger but dimmer light in the middle.
		That's effectively the description that I received.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		And this craft was, again, just to go back to the point that Cora made, I sort of talk about a flat triangle, almost like a, at risk of trivializing it, a slice of pizza or something, but that kind of shape.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That definitely trivializes it a bit because it was just monstrous and silent and amazing.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I'm just trying to really characterize a flat, something flat and triangular.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got it.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		But some of the other descriptions did suggest at a little bit more height and depth.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		So there were some indications that we were dealing, in some of these cases, at least, not with something flat and triangular, but something more diamond-shaped.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Let me squeeze a call in.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Nick Pope in Great Britain.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello, this is Roger from Washington State.
		Yes, sir.
		And two years ago, I think it was about two years ago, and I can't remember whether it was a magazine article.
		It seems to me that it was actually a newspaper article.
		I read that Israel was developing a craft with a light alloy exostructure, which would be filled with a helium or a lighter-than-air gas, and it would be parked in a geosynchronous orbit, suborbit, above their country.
		And I was wondering if Nick had maybe heard anything about anything like that.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I'm afraid the very short answer to that is I haven't.
unidentified		I know that I saw this article, and have you ever heard anything like that, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, and it was going to be parked where?
unidentified		The structure would be filled With this gas, and so that it would be lighter than, basically, not lighter than air, but it would be easy to elevate up to a suborbit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, tomorrow night's going to be really interesting.
		James McCanney is going to be here.
		He's a physicist, and he's had decades in promoting, among other things, and we're going to talk of many things, his view of what comets are, not the dirty snowballs that NASA has been always saying they thought they were, knew they were, really.
		And now, Project Stardust is done.
		We have obtained material from a comet tail.
		We have it back.
		We've analyzed it.
		And so it's going to be a hell of a night to have McKenny on the air.
		And that'll be tomorrow night.
		Tonight, Nick Pope in Great Britain.
		And Nick, welcome back.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Hello, you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The caller, you're also back.
		I cut you off.
		So anything else?
unidentified		Well, no, hi.
		I've always thought that that would be a logical type of craft to develop, you know, something with a lighter than air gas in it.
		And I don't, you know, I can't remember if it was an article, but I've always watched for some follow-up on that article, and I've never seen anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I must admit, I haven't either.
		And so, Nick, you know, he's right in a way.
		I don't know that it would go to the kind of altitudes he was talking about, geosynchronous, but certainly some kind of, I mean, we didn't really abandon the whole project after the Hindenburg, right?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		No, that's correct.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		And certainly I've seen some more generic material about airship technology and such like, but I guess a bit of Googling may well be the answer to this one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you have it.
		International line, good morning.
		You're on the air with Nick Pope.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Thanks, gentlemen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		It's a pleasure to be on your show, Art.
unidentified		I've been a longtime listener, first-time caller from Winnipeg, Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Listening on the superstation, C-J-O-B, and we're glad to have it.
		Just a question for your guest.
		Basically, I'm Mike Art has mentioned.
		I've spotted a couple UFOs up here in Canada.
		I spent a good deal of time up north, and I saw a documentary a number of months ago, for the second or third time, on orbs, that you have tremendous amount of crop circles over in the UK.
		And there was a number of amateur, I would imagine them to be amateur photographers, up on a hillside.
		They had a beautiful view of the valley and this huge cornfield, I guess it was, perhaps.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll bet Nick has seen the video, haven't you, Nick?
unidentified		I'll bet she has.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Now, is this, there are two videos that people often mention.
		One is where you actually see a formation appear.
		And I think most of the reports that I've heard suggest that that is a fake.
		But the one, do you mean the one with the little ball of light moving quite fast and very low through the fields and then coming close to a tractor?
		Is that the one?
unidentified		That is the one I had in mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the one.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Now that is an intriguing piece of film footage, not least because I believe that Colin Andrews subsequently tracked down the driver of the tractor, who quite independently from the people taking the film was able to corroborate the story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's interesting.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I'm virtually certain that's something that Colin Andrews has published.
		Yes, that is an extremely intriguing piece of film footage.
		I've seen it.
		Of course, it was never sent to me at the Ministry of Defence.
		I can't recall quite when it was taken, so it's not a piece of footage that I was able to get any experts to look at, analyzing, and not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe I should ask you, did your agency, your no-named agency, investigate crop circles, mutilations, that kind of thing?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		We had a watching brief, certainly on crop circles.
		I think the best way I can answer your question is to say that certainly, in my experience, it was impossible to run a UFO project without finding yourself on the receiving end of any reports that don't really kind of fit the pattern.
		So crop circles, animal mutilations, ghosts seen on military bases, alien abductions, anything weird and wonderful was reported to me.
		I had people phone up and ask if they could remote view for their country and become psychic spies.
		I had people ask me what plans the Ministry of Defense was developing to develop technologies to engage road comets or asteroids on collision course with the Earth.
		So yeah, the UFO project, although its terms of reference didn't cover these things, inevitably the reports had to go somewhere and they came to us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any comment at all?
		I mean, since you're a Brit, you know, Britain seems to attract crop circles like iron filings to a magnet, Nick.
		Why is that?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm going to say something which probably won't be too popular with some of your listeners, but I think that most, if not all, of the complex patterns I believe are probably made by people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's all right.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		But I think that there is a genuine phenomenon in terms of the very simple circles.
		And that, you know, it hasn't gone away.
		It's just that it's not being reported when there are all these much more newsworthy crop circles which make much better pictures in the newspapers.
		And I think the answer there, frankly, is likely to be some form of meteorological phenomenon.
		But I don't buy into the theory that these are being caused by UFOs, either landing in some way and swirling these patterns or creating them with Some sort of directed energy weapon.
		I just haven't seen anything that would support that hypothesis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe you could explain to us how these intricate, amazing formations get done over acres and acres and acres of land without people getting caught and that sort of thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just, we all wonder about that.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I think the first point is to stress that although people have this image of Doug and Dave as being the kind of archetypal crop circle hoaxes, I think that firstly the answer is there are much larger teams of people out, so there's just more or less work for the individuals to do, and everyone has their little piece to do.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		The other answer to your question, and I'm going to have to choose my words extremely carefully here for legal reasons and not mention any names, is that, of course, some farmers might find it quite lucrative to have a pattern on their crop.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Because the value of the lost and trampled corn pales into insignificance when you add up the fact that once word gets around, as long as you put a couple of people at the gate and take a pound of time for someone to come in and lurk,
		over the course of a long summer's weekend, certain farmers could stand to make several thousand pounds because the interest, of course, is that big.
		So again, choosing my words carefully, the issue about not being discovered and things like that, well, they might have some inside help or even inside sponsorship to produce these patterns.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, you've certainly seen them.
		Some of them are gigantic.
		Oh, they're complex beyond all reason for a bunch of kids with boards or whatever.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's more sophisticated than that.
		I suspect people are doing computer programs.
		I suspect there are artists and designers engaged on this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's say that I buy all of that.
		Shouldn't we, by now, caught some people or had some people come up and admit they were part of a very complex scheme and then laid out for us how they've done it?
		Because looking at some of them, it just doesn't seem humanly possible, particularly for them to have formed in such relatively short periods of time.
		There is a legitimate perhaps criminal mystery here.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Two answers to your question.
		Firstly, at least one person has been caught making crop circles and was actually charged and convicted of criminal damage.
		Good.
		The second answer is as to why the people engaged in really complex patterns wouldn't come out and say so, I think it would be like killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
		Part of their motivation is to keep the mystery going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're doing a damn good job of it for the most part.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I think of these formations as being art.
		And in a sense, I think to understand it, one has to look at the mindset of the conceptual artist, where for a conceptual artist, the effect of the artwork on the population is as much part of what they're creating as the pattern itself.
		And part of the conceptual art is, I think, getting these things in the papers, getting them discussed at news conferences, UFO conferences, and wherever.
		Now, I know there's a very deep-held belief in the minds of many people that there's more to it than that.
		And I know I'll have just upset a big bunch of people, and I apologize for that.
		No, that's quite all right.
		I can't not tell you what I think, and that's what I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, I just, you know, I'm willing to follow that path with you, but it just seems the size and the quickness with which some of these are laid down, and then, of course, you mentioned the lights, right, that were captured on video.
		I mean, there is something I'm sure that a lot of it is, I don't know, physics students may be out having a blast at night, a lot of them, or something, but not all of them.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess the last point that I would make on that is that, of course, I might be wrong, and I'll keep an open mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, they're doing a good job.
		First-time caller line, you're on the air with Nick Pope.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, gentlemen.
		I'm interested to know what information you can share with us of Mr. Bell's audience about UFOs in regard to either war games or other sites of battle, say in the Falkland Islands or in the Middle East or wherever.
		And I'll be glad to take your comments off the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		War gaming.
		Has there been any interference or any observation made at war games?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Not as far.
		Well, no, hang on.
		Let me correct that.
		Yes.
		Of course, there's been a long history of close association between UFO sightings and military bases.
		In terms of military exercises, yes.
		I guess the story of Operation Mainbrace in the 50s is fairly well known, that UFOs were detected in a big NATO exercise.
		And I am aware of a case more recently involving a British Navy ship, HMS Manchester, which was again on a NATO exercise up, I think, with the Norwegians and some other nations on what's called a JMC, a joint maritime course.
		It's a regular naval exercise that NATO does.
		And again, there were sightings of UFOs there.
		As to any interference, I'm not aware of that.
		And as for an actual war zone, of course, I've seen reports in the literature, but I haven't seen any official reports relating to Iraq or the Falklands or anything like that.
		I mean, I guess the point I would make is, of course, there are an awful lot of things flying around, everything from aircraft to missiles, AAA.
		So there's kind of a lot of things in the sky anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good enough.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Nick Pope.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good evening, gentlemen.
		Hi.
		Jim in Baltimore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I think we all made some interesting inferences about that exchange that your government had with the U.S. concerning.
		I was wondering if you had any other examples of that.
		I think the last caller might have diluted this question a bit, but the proximity you have with other European nations, I was wondering if you had any other examples such as that.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		No, there is a few.
		Very few examples.
		My brief when I was doing the job was really just to look at sightings in the United Kingdom.
		Inevitably, I did try to make some contacts a little bit wider.
		And for example, where we got questions as we did still about the Belgian sightings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you say brief, Nick, you mean your orders, your directive?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that what you mean?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Yes, effectively the terms of reference of the project, which is just to look at UFO sightings reported to me in the UK to see if there was evidence of a threat.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		My brief did not say go and start investigating UFO reports that you might have read occurred in China or anything like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At any time, to your knowledge, with the man who had the job previous to you and or the ones subsequent, has there been an assessment of threat?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Not a formal one, no.
		Not in the sense that a military intelligence officer would understand the concept of threat assessment.
		Now, that doesn't mean that people haven't speculated more informally over the years.
		And I think I mentioned some fairly big establishment figures who did.
		And in fact, someone who I didn't mention, Lord Hill Norton, the former chief of our defense staff, coming out and speaking about his belief in an extraterrestrial reality.
		Now, the chief of the defense staff, that's kind of the equivalent of your chairman of the Joint Chiefs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's big.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Or rather, a former chairman, someone like Kellyn Powell, suddenly coming out and talking about an extraterrestrial reality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
unidentified		That's big.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		When people of that caliber speak out, I think people should listen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Nick Polk.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Am I on the air?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are.
unidentified		Yes, going back a couple of calls, I wanted to comment on the crop circles.
		I think you perceive a substance to them, Art, because, say, the Tibetans, they make very intricate, they call them mandala symbols.
		And a mandala symbolism is a reflection, a psychic reflection of a person's mind.
		And these Tibetans, they meditate on these symbols.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're very short on time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So your point is or a question?
unidentified		That was just a comment that that's what you might be saying.
		My actual question is, it's not, are these people hallucinating, but it is, what is the psychological aspect to this entire subject of seeing UFOs?
		Because certainly there's got to be a portion of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think we've got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so how much of it is, I don't know, can be attributed to some sort of psychological maladjustment on the part of the people claiming these stories?
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		I think a very small percentage, but it would be irresponsible to pretend that it wasn't there.
		And I think one could say the same of the abduction reports, that certainly there may well be psychological explanations to some, but not all of those points.
		Picking up on your caller's first point, there's some very interesting potential research to be done, I guess, between linkages in crop circle patterns, symbols seen by people on the side of UFOs, and some of the symbols reported by the abductees.
		And again, there's a whole symbology, as it were, a science of symbology, and some of the ancient patterns drawn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the title of your book is a good way to wrap it up.
		The title of your book is Open Skies, Closed Minds.
		Open Skies, Closed Minds.
		I love the title.
		Buddy, we're out of time.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, it's been great to be on the show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's been great to have you on the program, and you can bet we're going to have you on again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nick, thanks a million.
nick pope ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have a good night.

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