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Nov. 20, 2005 - Art Bell

02:29:27

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Stanton Friedman - Ufology Update

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	It's of Dusty and Abby, and they're obviously fighting some evil paper towels, which no doubt, at least in their little feline brains, attack them, and so they're having their revenge.
	That occurred, I think that was last night.
	And it was funny.
	You just go out there and look and you go, well, you can't say that on the radio.
	Speaking of radio, it is the hobby I indulge in much of the time when I'm not here.
	And you can get sort of a cute little sneak peek at ham radio by going to a place called smeter.net.
	www.smeter.net.
	S-M-E-T-E-R.net.
	dot net s m e t e r dot net now we've indulged
	in several RV trips We'll see you next time.
	We've gone up to Reno and went up to Idaho.
	So we've been having fun, you know, in this sort of semi-retirement.
	We've been having a blast, actually.
	However, on the last trip I seem to have acquired acute bronchitis, which I'm now on the better side of.
	But if it sounds like I've got a cold tonight, that's because I do.
	Ramona's cold, of course, turned into asthma, so we've had quite a time of it for the past week or so.
	Tonight's program is going to center around UFOs.
	A very, very basic part of this program.
	No, you know what?
	That's not true.
	It has not always been.
	But for many, many years now, it certainly has been one of the mainstays of the program, and in that spirit, I have for you on the website tonight two interesting pictures, actually videos, of recent UFOs.
	Now, the first one I found on the web, somebody sent me and then I sent on to Lex to get it up there.
	It's from Bulgaria and I think it's damn good.
	Really good.
	And the reason I think it's so good is because It's an obvious UFO.
	In other words, it's not far away and fuzzy.
	It's close and very visible.
	And there are, you know, there's a field of reference there.
	There's a building in the forefront of this UFO.
	Therefore, you can assign to it some sort of scale.
	Some sort of scale.
	And I tell you, it's pretty good.
	So you might want to take a look at that one.
	The second one Lex found and put up, I don't think it's quite as good, only because it's taken from a pretty good distance.
	And I don't know about you, but I cannot make out the shape of the object in any detail.
	But it's still a good UFO photograph.
	The first one though, the one The one from Bulgaria, I think that will knock your socks off a bit.
	It really is quite good.
	And tonight's guest, Stanton Frieden, of course.
	...has been doing this as his life's work.
	That is to say, UFOs.
	So, it's going to be a very interesting program tonight.
	And as a primer for it, I suggest you go to www.CoastToCoastAM.com and take a look at those and rate them, if you will, as I did.
	Again, the first object is close.
	You have a frame of reference, that is the building.
	Uh, for its size and, you know, where it is relative to everything.
	And so you make a judgment about its size and it's pretty damn big.
	The second one, farther away, doing some aerobatic stuff and then... So I don't know.
	That one, as Stanton would be quick to say, would go in my gray box.
	But the first one...
	That's pretty good stuff, folks, so you might want to check it out.
	www.coasttocoastam.com.
	It'll be right there plastered on the front page.
	Now, the Bell family has a few favorite TV shows.
	My favorite TV shows would be Medium.
	Have you seen that?
	Man, what a show!
	They're going to have a little bit of 3D, and I'm looking forward to 3D and Hi-D.
	That should be something coming up this week.
	And then House.
	Have you seen House?
	My lord, what a well-acted show.
	And then finally... Oh, there is another good one, too.
	Gina.
	Gina as Commander-in-Chief.
	Boy, she's very, very good.
	I really like that.
	So, Medium House and Commander-in-Chief, just excellent stuff if you haven't checked them out yet.
	And then, since I'm in the world of TV, let me do a little bitching.
	One of my favorite TV shows in the past has been The Practice.
	Remember The Practice?
	Which has now become Boston Legal.
	Well...
	I want to raise a little hell here with the people who are doing this.
	This was, without a doubt, one of my favorite TV shows, James Spader.
	Incredible, just incredible in the part, but he is being emasculated, in my opinion.
	The program itself is being emasculated.
	It presented some of the finest, sharpest, most controversial, suspenseful dramas I've ever seen on television.
	And that was during the time between when the practice was going off and Boston Legal began.
	My God, it was a good show.
	And then, James Spader, oh, just incredible.
	The bad guy, the attorney, the bad guy, but kind of a good guy, but really a bad guy, and now it seems to me they've emasculated him and the program itself.
	They have turned from the serious, the controversial, the dramatic, the gut-wrenching, to the frivolous, to the fluff.
	To the nothingness of regular TV.
	In fact, I suspect that they may have hired some of the people who became unemployed when Ally McBeal went belly up.
	I don't know, but I want it to change!
	I want it to go back to what it was.
	What it once was.
	So I wonder if anybody out there agrees with that.
	If you watch a TV show sort of as an almost not quite religious experience, mind you, but a sort of a thing that you do, and then it suddenly changes on you and becomes less and becomes sort of frivolous and mindless and drives me crazy.
	so the people from boston legal i hope you're listening so i think in the
	uh... the time we have available for calls this evening when we get to it
	uh... both prior to and then uh... once we take calls with the guest will be
	devoted to uh... ufo's Now, not so much, you know, Arne, I got a story from when I was 13 or something like that, but if you've got a pretty recent sighting, I'd definitely like to hear about it.
	Taking a very brief look at the depressing news, here you go.
	Suspect arrested in Washington Mall shootings.
	Gunman opened fire inside a busy shopping mall.
	Now that's where a lot of stories start out, isn't it?
	A gunman opened fire inside a busy shopping mall and wounded at least six people, took three others hostage in a music store before finally surrendering to a SWAT team.
	And these are just head shakers.
	You don't know why somebody does something like this and you just shake your head.
	So I call them head shakers.
	The White House doubts that Elsa Karoui is dead among the dead.
	Let's see.
	Israeli leader reportedly leaving... Oh, that's interesting.
	Israel's dovish Labor Party vowed Sunday to pull out Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's government.
	And Sharon reportedly decided to quit his Likud party to set up a new movement beginning a campaign for elections expected perhaps in March.
	President Bush hails Mongolia for backing the Iraq war.
	That's good.
	We've got somebody Mongolia.
	U.S.
	unprepared for super flu pandemic.
	The U.S.
	is unprepared, it says here, for the next flu pandemic, lacking the manufacturing capacity to provide 300 million doses, that's a bunch, of vaccine for three to five more years.
	So in other words, it'll be three to five years before we can get the vaccine to give to anybody, and even then, we'll only have some.
	So they will have to make horrendous decisions about who shall receive the vaccine, And who won't?
	I bet government workers.
	I bet they'll be right up there at the top.
	And then how do you suppose the list would then play out from there?
	Government leaders first, and then who?
	A NASA spacecraft is halfway toward Mars where it is expected to collect more data on the red planet than all previous Martian explorations combined.
	The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter successfully fired its six engines for 20 seconds last week.
	That adjusted the flight path in anticipation of a March arrival.
	It will fine-tune its trajectory perhaps two more times before it enters orbit about Mars.
	So maybe we'll find out more about Mars.
	The flu pandemic very much on my mind.
	The potential flu pandemic.
	About 65,000 birds at a poultry farm in Fraser River Valley, British Columbia, are going to be slaughtered after a strain of bird flu was discovered in a duck there.
	However, this apparently is not the worst kind you can get, but nevertheless, 65,000 birds.
	With regard to the bird flu, I think even though we've got to keep an eye on it, it's very concerning.
	Until you hear about human-to-human transmission, I don't think there's a hell of a lot to worry about.
	I mean, of course it's concerning, and it could jump species anytime, and that is the worry, but as long as it remains with the birds and out of human beings, in a way that can spread from human to human, there's no reason for great concern.
	The moment you hear about human-to-human transmission, as in, you know, transmission of the flu, Then you're going to have to decide what is best for you and your family, and one of those things is probably going to be, frankly, to isolate yourself from other human beings for a period of up to, I don't know, six months?
	Would that even do it?
	I think the 1918 flu circled the globe about three times before it stopped, or just pooped out, or whatever it is a flu does when it gets done.
	So I don't even know if that would be enough time.
	Well, get ready.
	Brace yourself.
	The HAARP experiment in Alaska is about to ratchet up the power to, I've heard, four billion watts.
	The ionosphere has been pretty ratty lately anyway, and we're all suspecting it has something to do with something other than normal conditions, though we are at the low of a sunspot cycle, and here they go.
	4 billion watts continental, name of a company, said it is ahead of schedule in delivering 132
	ultra low noise transmitters to US government contractors BAE systems for use in the high-frequency
	active auroral research program. That is the official name by the way.
	Do you know that? HAARP is the high frequency active auroral research program. When the massive
	planar array for ionospheric research is completed in 2007, it's going to include a total
	of a hundred and eighty continental electronics, DG616G 10 kilowatt combined transmitters, which the company is
	upgrading specifically for HAARP, said the supplier.
	Installation began in 93 with 18, 48 in 98, and will grow to 180.
	The final expansion will bring the HAARP array to full power,
	with ERP increasing from 84 dBW to about 96 dBW.
	That's lots and lots of power, folks.
	And we've been watching HAARP very carefully now.
	I've come to understand that DARPA is now mainly in control of the HAARP project, and While we can certainly not say anything is specifically due to HAARP, the shortwave conditions have been deplorable, and they're as easy to blame as anybody.
	Moreover, if HAARP wasn't working, it seems to me the funding would have been cut.
	God knows we cut it for everything else, but instead HAARP is getting the bucks, the transmitters, and they're going to go all the way to four billion watts.
	And again, I say if it wasn't working, If something about it was not performing as hoped, I guess we should put it that way, then they'd be cutting the funding, but they're not.
	What does that mean?
	It probably means it's working.
	Levels of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere have jumped abruptly, raising fears that global warming may be accelerating now out of control.
	Measurements by U.S.
	government scientists show that concentrations of the gas, the main cause of the climate exchange, That's exchange, rose by a record amount over the past 12 months.
	It is the third successful year in which they have increased sharply, making an unprecedented triennial surge.
	Scientists are at a loss to explain why the rapid rise has taken place, but they fear it could show the first signs that global warming is now feeding on itself, with rising temperatures causing increases in carbon dioxide, which then go on to drive the thermometer even higher.
	That would be a deeply alarming development, suggesting that this self-reinforcing heating could spiral upwards beyond the reach of any attempts to combat it.
	The development comes as official figures show that Britain's emissions of the gas soared by 3% last year.
	That would be about twice as fast as the previous year.
	The increase caused by rising energy use and by burning less gas, more coal in power stations,
	jeopardizes that government's target of reducing emissions by 19% by 2010.
	And clearly it is changing our weather.
	Or clearly, I guess it would be fairer to say, our weather is changing.
	This from David.
	David says, Hey Art, I thought I'd write and mention the odd weather we've been having in our neck of the woods, just the north shores of Lake Ontario, a town called Burlington, about three weeks ago.
	We began having very strong windstorms.
	I've lived in the area all my life, never seen anything this strength or duration.
	About two weeks ago, Hamilton, a city next to us, had a tornado.
	It was an F1, F2, anyway strong enough to rip the roof off a school and some other buildings.
	Many sheds and decks disappeared for good.
	Its path took it over the escarpment and into Lake Ontario.
	So be Be warned, the weather clearly is changing, as was demonstrated by Katrina, of course, in New Orleans.
	And speaking of New Orleans, spores, this was so predictable, right?
	Spores of airborne mold have become a hazard in New Orleans, where the cleanup's still going on and will be for some time now.
	Andrew Uncom, I believe it is.
	Uh, writes in the Independent that the Natural Resources Defense Council, or NRDC, has accused the federal government of failing to warn people about the danger, much as they failed to warn New Yorkers about dangerous air pollution post 9-11.
	When the NRDC took air samples from 14 different locations in the New Orleans area, 9 of which had been flooded, they discovered incredibly high levels of mold spores.
	Allergist says that an outdoor mold spore level greater than about 50,000 spores per cubic meter is dangerous, and the ones here are quite a bit above that.
	And then finally, in this area, my little area of the world, there is some interesting news.
	Former Hollywood Madame Heidi Fleiss says that she is bound for a brothel in the southern Nevada desert.
	That she says she's going to help remake Indoor Resort featuring male prostitutes serving female customers.
	I'm moving to Crystal, said Fleiss, Wednesday, of a desert crossroads about 20 miles north of Pahrump, Nevada and about 80 miles outside Las Vegas.
	It features two bordellos and very little else.
	That's Crystal, all right.
	I'm going to open a stud farm, said Fleiss.
	I'm going to have the sexiest men on earth.
	Women are going to love it.
	He says.
	Joe Richards, who owns the Cherry Patch Ranch and Mabel's Ranch in Crystal, said that he sent a courtesy letter Thursday to inform Nye County Commission that Fleiss is going to work for him and apparent plans, you know, to open this new kind of bordello.
	She's going to be Madame of Cherry Patch Ranch, said Richards.
	He told that to the Associated Press by telephone.
	So he calls her an employee as opposed to a partner, but I don't know.
	She got into some trouble a while ago.
	Our Sheriff Tony DeMeo said that because Flyce is a convicted felon, well, she might be banned from the county's legal sex trade.
	DeMeo sits with five county commissioners on a six-member brothel licensing board.
	That is something legal way out here in my part of the desert.
	All right, we're going to take a break here.
	As promised now to your calls to remind you that Stanton Friedman will be here at the
	top of the hour.
	Perhaps Stanton could claim the title of the grandfather now of ufology.
	I'm not sure I'd have to think about that, but certainly he's very close to that.
	So it's going to be an interesting evening, and these things are with us all over our skies.
	Let's see what you have to say.
	Good evening.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hey Art, this is Chris from Evansville, Indiana.
	How are you doing tonight?
	I'm great, Chris.
	And you?
	Oh, pretty good.
	I saw that video you've got on your website.
	Oh, yes.
	Which one are you referring to?
	There's two of them.
	It was the first one.
	Okay.
	The one from Bulgaria?
	Yeah, the one that was right... You could see the building in the foreground.
	That's a pretty good one, isn't it?
	It is.
	I saw one exactly like that.
	It happened to be at night, though.
	I was driving with my girlfriend at the time, and It was a cloudy sky.
	Couldn't see any stars.
	It seemed like there was one star out there.
	And it turned bright red.
	Turned red.
	We thought a, you know, a star exploded.
	But as soon as we were talking about that, it dropped straight down into the tree line.
	We couldn't see it anymore.
	And then a few moments later, it popped right back up again.
	And by this time, we were kind of, you know, on the edge of our seats, as you can imagine, I would guess.
	I can imagine.
	We were driving down the road and it seemed to get larger and larger because it was coming towards us.
	And we got to our house and it seemed to be over a field.
	So we got out of the car and we ran to the closest field where we could see it.
	And it was the exact same shape up in the sky, the same altitude.
	And it actually physically looked like the video we've got up there?
	Yeah, completely like that.
	Except this happened to be at night.
	And you could make out enough detail to tell that it looked like this one, because you can see detail in this.
	Oh, yeah.
	In the video, you could see kind of like a darker band in the front.
	Well, that was illuminated when I saw it.
	It was bright white.
	And it had a... On the bottom of it, there was a white circle.
	All right, so what do you think you saw?
	Do you think you saw an extraterrestrial craft?
	Do you think you saw a U.S.
	government operation?
	What do you think you saw?
	Well, it hovered there for about 15 minutes and then it shot off toward our airport.
	So when I saw it, I thought maybe, hey, there's some fellas from way outer space coming to check us out.
	I don't know.
	Alright, well look, that's as good a sighting as any.
	One much like the video.
	The video's quite good.
	The video, without question.
	Shows you details, something you don't see in most UFO videos.
	It's not particularly fuzzy, it's quite clear.
	It gives you a reference, a building in front to give you some idea of the size, and then of course at the very end, she's gone like that.
	Obviously a real craft of some sort.
	You never know about these things.
	You know, people are good with various photoshops and God knows they can knock them out in the movies and they look very real.
	So it could be something like that.
	But assuming that it's legitimate photography, and I guess I do make that assumption, then it really is quite spectacular.
	You tell me what you think.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Am I on the air?
	You are.
	Oh, hello.
	I've had several experiences over my lifetime.
	Several?
	Yeah, it started in central California.
	I lived in Fresno, and I was just sort of summoned to look up in the sky, and I looked up and saw a dot, and as soon as I saw this object, it disappeared.
	It was like it knew it had seen me, or I had seen it.
	Not long after that, I had a celestial visitation, and it was like a beautiful spirit I kind of have this strange feeling that they're connected, but it was a life-changing experience.
	One of the things that Stanton's going to talk tonight about is a new book that's been written that really tears apart the people who have made claims like yours of a visitation or of being abducted or anything like that.
	I mean, it just totally trashes the whole thing as psychological Gibberish.
	I know.
	But the thing is, my sister, I slept on a top bunk and she slept on a lower one and she was deaf.
	And she said the light that came into the room scared her.
	And she put the pillow over her face.
	Okay, so you've got a witness.
	I have many witnesses.
	My sister is from another bedroom, saw a bright light shining under the door from my room.
	So, and my sister, who is deaf, I was trying to explain to my mother the following day that what had happened to me And how I felt totally changed about I wasn't just a regular kid anymore.
	I was more global.
	I thought if I was a person in Africa, I would see it as a familiar form as a child in Africa.
	And I became very world conscious and actually did end up traveling as a national person's wife to visit different countries.
	And then, um, when I was in Hartford, uh, I was going over to, uh, St.
	Petersburg to have lunch with my husband, and I was, like, summoned to look up into the sky, and I looked up there, and there was a silver disc up there.
	As soon as I saw it, it dashed behind this only white cloud that was over the city.
	When you said, you said, summoned to look into the sky, you mean you had some sort of, uh, mental pressure to look up?
	Yeah, it's like, look up.
	You know, and that's the same as when I was in my backyard in Fresno.
	It's like, it's like it, you know, sometimes I think it's like, it monitors you.
	It has certain people that, um, it's just keeping an eye on the world and making sure things are okay.
	And, um, my son, we were driving through a valley, um, he was 17, very, very, doesn't believe in anything.
	And he just suddenly said, I just saw a flying saucer.
	Well, I guess it runs then in the family.
	Thank you very much.
	You know, I just never know what to say to these things and I'd probably be laughing except for the fact that I've seen two myself.
	See, that changes you.
	As you know, and I'm not going to put you through the pain of repeating it, but my wife and I had a very, very close encounter and when you've had that, after you've had it, there's simply no way to ignore, laugh at, or jest With regard to people who make claims, like we're hearing tonight.
	Simple as that.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, good morning.
	Yeah, I had an experience, well, my wife and I had an experience involving some other people, and it's ironic.
	I've shared this experience with a little bit of an ongoing communication I've had with Stan Frieden, myself.
	Communication about my string theory that is consistent with biblical texts.
	But anyway, it occurred.
	Unfortunately, you know, I never wrote down the date, but it occurred around the year 2000.
	My wife and I were returning from a late dinner, and we were traveling north along the ocean, which was directly to our right side, of course, and that was in North Ormond Beach in the Tomoka Park area on a two-lane highway.
	And my first irritant was this A continual brake lights of the cars in front of me, or the media car in front of me, and I would have to stop, reset cruise control, start again, and I was getting more and more irritated, but I was in a conversation with my wife at the time, and I started to notice the car in front of me, the driver was looking up out his driver's side window, looking upward.
	Well, at some point I began to do the same.
	Sure.
	Wondering what he's seeing.
	Absolutely.
	And what I would see when I looked up was what I would think with my earth-born senses and rationality as first a helicopter or it must be a blimp because it was apparently stationary.
	But then As the sensors would kick in, I would realize there was no, this is about 100 feet above us, about 100 to 150 feet in diameter.
	It was round and it was dark.
	And what I could see were lights.
	And the thing that struck me next was there was no Copter blade noise.
	Then I started to see that this was motionless above us.
	Well, the brain tries to make sense out of what doesn't make sense.
	Exactly.
	Your brain is telling you, look, it has to be a helicopter or it has to be a blimp.
	It's sitting still.
	Exactly. We're just trained that way with our senses. And so you try to come up with a quick explanation, you know,
	you're trying to continue driving.
	And at some point I started to realize this large object, circular in its size and dimensions, it had these lights.
	And I started to realize there's no Compton noise in it, and I had never seen a blimp.
	First of all, nothing can fly that close with the aeronautical laws that close to the ground immediately above the Route A1A, which is a two-lane highway that runs along the Atlantic Ocean.
	And then, of course, the blimps, if they do have any lights, generally they're around the square cabin.
	Well, how did this end?
	Okay, so the car is finally almost slow to a stop.
	Everybody was following suit.
	They were looking out their windows.
	And then finally, speed was resumed, but as we looked behind us, it never moved from that spot.
	When I got home, I called 911.
	I looked in the newspaper the next day, saw nothing.
	But my wife and I talked about it, and of course, I have my own beliefs.
	I absolutely believe that this is a life form, and it has its own vehicles.
	I believe... You believe all that.
	All right, let me pepper you with a couple of questions.
	What do you believe they're doing here?
	Well, first of all, I believe they're probably visiting their cousins.
	You see, because I have this string theory that... Meaning us?
	Consistent with biblical texts.
	Okay, we don't have time to get into all of that.
	I believe the Creator has created these, and it was an early model, a plain-Jane, pencil-necked geek, plain-Jane model, not in the likeness of the Creator and not the apple of His eye as we are.
	And I believe these people perhaps were just... Well, then how come they get the saucers and we get, you know, Jim and Ford and stuff?
	Oh, because with their tenure as a life form in the universe... So it's tenure.
	It's tenure.
	All right, well, thank you very much.
	It's tenure, then.
	See, the tenured guys get...
	You know, the nice round, faster than light saucers, and we're stuck with cars, albeit a few newer models, but still cars.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, Art.
	Hi.
	This is Dan from Phoenix, Arizona.
	Yes, Dan.
	Yeah, I had a UFO experience.
	Actually, it was in October 2000, and it actually turned out how I'd learned about your show.
	But I was at a really remote location in South Central Arizona at a hang gliding mountain that we fly at.
	Ah, yes.
	And this might ring a bell, but I was putting up some permanent wind streamers that our club had been putting up at sites.
	And I was down there by myself.
	Everybody else had left.
	And it was getting dark.
	And to the south of the mountain, about 15 miles, was Interstate 8 running to Yuma and San Diego.
	And I saw lights, and I thought they were helicopters.
	I thought there was a wreck maybe down on Interstate 8.
	So I didn't think anything of it.
	I kept walking around, you know, finishing up, getting ready to go home.
	And the lights started illuminating the top of a bluff just to the south of me, and I Shortly after that I realized these things were not helicopters.
	They were moving really sporadically.
	There were three of them.
	Right.
	And this went on for over an hour and five minutes is how long it lasted.
	And I was absolutely terrified.
	It got so scary.
	They were illuminating the ground below them.
	They were doing these gyrations that looked like a heart monitor.
	Even going faster than a heart monitor.
	And that's when I realized it's like there's no way that there could be a physical being in that ship without just the G-forces alone.
	Would turn them to mush.
	Yes.
	And at one point they started coming over to me.
	There were farm fields in between us and they were lighting up the farm fields and they were coming right at me.
	Well, that's quite a sighting.
	Yeah, and I jumped in my truck and I wrote a note down.
	I thought I was going to get Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I still got the letter.
	I wrote down my name, Southside, Oatman Mountain, UFOs.
	I see you were going to sort of write a final goodbye note.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	What were you going to say?
	I wrote down, I've still got the letter.
	I wrote down my name, Southside, Oatman Mountain, UFOs.
	I wrote down the time.
	Wow.
	And I just, I was on the back of a banking statement with a felt pen.
	I was just in a total panic.
	I hear you.
	So you thought this was like your final note to the world.
	Yeah.
	And I had not turned on the truck or the lights or anything because I was so terrified.
	And then one of my friends asked me, and this was where, you know, I didn't know hardly anything about any UFO activity or anything at this time.
	I was pretty green because I like, you know, I wasn't listening to your show or really into that at that time.
	But I just had a sense of fear that was unlike anything I had ever experienced.
	I can't even explain how scared I was.
	You want to take a shot at telling me what you think was inside those crafts?
	I mean, um... I was... Aliens?
	I've always tried to be really objective about it and I honestly can't Say one way or the other, whether it was aliens or human, something that we've developed that's hidden.
	But I do know without a doubt in my mind that it was either the craft was driven by either anti-gravity or what you've talked about on so many other shows with turning it into zero mass.
	Yes.
	Just the G-forces, like I was saying, would rip without some way of controlling gravity or controlling mass.
	What about the old swamp gas thing or something akin to that?
	No way, because it was lighting up.
	It would illuminate like maybe a quarter square mile at a time when you could see the swirl cactuses.
	Was it as though it was looking for something?
	Yeah, and actually that's what my friend asked me.
	They said, what do you think it was doing there?
	And I just had this sense, and I didn't even know why I said it, but I said it almost seemed, the feelings I had, I felt like it was almost searching for either something in the ground or searching for souls.
	And I don't know why.
	I couldn't explain it.
	Everybody thought I was weird.
	Searching for souls?
	That's just what it felt like.
	Doesn't it bother you a little then that it didn't grab you?
	No, that doesn't bother me.
	I'm damn glad it didn't.
	Well, I understand, but I mean, I'm not saying you're soulless, but I mean, if it was really searching for souls... Well, where it was, right to the south of me where it was, was on the Gila River bed, and that was where there used to be old Indian villages there.
	And the mountain I was on, and a lot of the little mountains around there, are covered with petroglyphs.
	So that's kind of what made me think.
	It's like it was down there hovering around where the old Indian villages used to be.
	Well, you're sure not the first person to drop that soul reference with regard to ufology.
	That's something John Lear talked an awful lot about, disturbingly.
	Yeah, and I thought of that before I'd ever even listened to your show or even knew anything about it.
	So that's what strikes me as being so odd at this time.
	Maybe that's why, thank you very much, there is so much interest from the religious world, the religious community in ufology.
	Maybe that's why the Catholic Church ran over all kinds of obstacles, you know, people complaining about the environmental impact and so forth, to get a telescope up in a mountain in Arizona.
	To look for what?
	You've got to wonder, what is the Catholic Church looking for?
	and what about this connection between the religious world and you followed it
	i don't know if anybody wants to be known as a grandfather of anything but uh...
	probably pretty close i got a uh...
	First of all, Stan, welcome to the program.
	Glad to be on again, Art.
	It's been a while.
	I don't know, you want to be known as a grandfather of ufology?
	No, I am a grandfather as a matter of fact, but... Well, there you have it.
	But not of ufology, I don't think.
	You know, the funny thing is, Art, when I started off a long time ago, I was young, let's put it that way, in my 20s.
	I used to remind J. Allen Hynek that he was the same age as my father.
	He didn't much appreciate it.
	I know.
	Alright, I got an email from a listener that might be a good way to start.
	He says, Mr. Friedman's website, of all the things it does say, doesn't address why he got into his line of work.
	In other words, proving UFOs are real.
	It must be incredibly frustrating to spend your life and your time that way, and I'm wondering what kind of events got him going in that direction?
	Well, it wasn't any event at all, except I was ordering books from a mail-order discount book place in New York.
	I needed one more book so I wouldn't have to pay shipping.
	And there was a report on unidentified flying objects by Air Force Captain Edward Ruppelt.
	This was in 1958.
	I was working as a quite young nuclear physicist on nuclear airplanes.
	A big project.
	Great fun.
	Exciting.
	I figured three things.
	One, it wasn't going to cost me anything.
	It was $2.95 marked down to a buck, which is what shipping would have been.
	Two, the guy who was involved, Edward Ruppelt, had a Project Blue book.
	I don't know what he was talking about.
	He was head of it in the early 50s.
	And three, the Air Force was a co-sponsor of our program with the Atomic Energy Commission.
	Between them, we were spending $100 million a year.
	This was not a small program.
	And so I figured if these things are real, and if they use nuclear power, it would certainly help our program.
	And so I got the book, I read the book, shared it with a neighbor 10 years older than I was, Charlie, an engineer.
	He was more impressed than I was.
	We both moved away.
	I moved to California, had a good librarian, read 15 more books.
	Some of which were absolute junk, and if I'd read them first, I probably would never read another book.
	And then I made the great discovery of a privately published version of the largest study ever done on UFOs, Project Blue Book Special Report Number 14.
	Largest unclassified study, Lord knows what the government has.
	And this shocked me, because I'm a data hound, and there were 240 charts, tables, graphs, and maps, and I was in data heaven.
	But the guy included, Dr. Leon Davidson, had gotten a copy of this thing, came out in 1955, and this was a few years later, obviously, and he included the press release.
	The report itself was never distributed by the Air Force, but the press release was, and it was clear that they were lying through their teeth.
	That shocked me.
	I was working under security.
	What part of the report made you conclude they were lying through their teeth?
	Well, okay, the head of the, well, the Secretary of the Air Force, Donald Quarles, said, quote, on the basis of this report, we believe that no objects such as those properly described as flying saucers have overflown the United States.
	Even the unknown 3% could have been identified as conventional phenomena or illusions if more complete observational data had been available.
	Well, the trouble is that when you looked at the report, it was 21.5% that were unknown, not 3%, and they were completely separate and distinct from the 9.5% that were listed as insufficient information.
	So they were lying about the numbers to begin with.
	Yeah, and when you look more carefully at the data, and they didn't put it together in the same way I do, so that you could easily see When you look at the quality evaluation, this involved 3,201 sightings.
	That's a good number.
	The work was done by Battelle Memorial Institute in Columbus, Ohio, under contract to the Air Force.
	Not by a bunch of UFO nuts, you know.
	And, uh, when you look at the quality evaluation, for example, of every single sighting, they found that the better the quality of the sighting, the more likely to be unexplainable.
	The exact opposite of what the noisy negativists keep telling us.
	you found that the duration of observation was longer for the unknowns
	than for the knowns.
	They did a statistical cross-comparison between unknowns, which are the only ones I'm interested
	in.
	That's why my electric flying saucers are real rather than UFOs are real, because all
	flying saucers are UFOs, very few UFOs are flying saucers.
	I don't care about the IFOs, identifiable flying objects.
	What they found was that the probability that the unknowns were just misknowns was less
	than 1%.
	Thank you.
	The probability that the unknowns were... Missed knowns.
	Missed knowns.
	The two groups don't match in any of the six characteristics which they looked at.
	Apparent size, color, shape, speed.
	In other words, if there was no difference, you'd expect that pretty much, you know, the same percentages would be green, yellow, or fast, slow, you know, all the characteristics that they looked at.
	And they weren't!
	And so, that really shook me up, and then by one of these synchronicity things, I guess.
	Shortly after finding that, within a year or so, I was Project Engineer.
	I was working for Aerojet General Nucleonics on the West Coast.
	I was Project Engineer on a contract out of the Foreign Technology Division of the United States Air Force, same place that Project Blue Book was, and was making either every month, every two-month trips back to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
	And while I was there, my contract was, oh it had a great title, Analysis and Evaluation of Fast and Intermediate Reactors for Space Vehicle Applications.
	The word that was left out of the title was Soviet.
	I'm trying to evaluate because I had worked on our programs.
	Were they going to be able to put up nuclear power plants in space?
	Which would be very nice because they give you lots of power.
	My conclusion, incidentally, in the Highly Classified Report, which I still don't have a copy of, put out two volumes.
	One was unclassified, and nobody saw it.
	I don't think my boss got a copy.
	Really?
	I successfully predicted that they would be putting them up, and I must have been the only guy on the whole continent that was happy when Cosmos 954 The Soviet satellite came down in northern Canada near Great Slave Lake back in the late 60s.
	Oh, yes.
	Remember all the fuss about those poor caribou are going to get irradiated?
	Yes, I do.
	The funny thing is, of course, that none of the news coverage, and there was plenty, Time, Newsweek, etc., focused on what was most important.
	This was like the 13th nuclear reactor that the Soviets had operated in space.
	They wound up putting up about three dozen, incidentally.
	We put up one lousy system.
	It was used for sideband radar, for scanning the ships at sea, they'd be useful for particle beam weapons, laser weapons, stuff like that.
	So they were very important, and it's kind of funny, I wrote a Freedom of Information Act request to the CIA for characteristics, and that was classified, but the characteristics were of the Soviet reactor, as if the Russians didn't know.
	I'm curious, you were working on nuclear airplanes.
	Is it reasonable to ask today why we don't have them?
	Well, it's a reasonable question.
	Yeah, one of the frustrations of my life, that's why that intro includes the word cancelled government project program, was the total lack of leadership.
	We needed an Admiral Rickover, you remember him with nuclear submarines, and most of the, well all the other programs I worked on didn't have They didn't know what they wanted to do with the darn thing.
	One year it was, well, let's go supersonic and go in high for a nuclear bomber.
	The big advantage of a nuclear airplane is range.
	You don't need to refuel for thousands of flights.
	Well, first of all, is it feasible?
	I mean, I don't even understand how it would be applied.
	There were two different approaches being funded.
	Ours was the big one, maybe $100 million a year in 1958.
	This was not for professors and 8th grad students, you understand.
	Right.
	It was very straightforward.
	The air comes into the compressor of the big jet engine and goes through the reactor to be heated instead of burning fuel, and then goes out through the turbine at a very high temperature, like 1800 or 1900 degrees.
	And creates thrust just by kicking the air out the back end.
	That's the direct cycle.
	There was an indirect cycle.
	Navy reactors operated about 1,000 degrees, so that gives you some idea.
	We were way up there with the technical difficulty of these things.
	The indirect cycle, Pratt-Whitney, I had the two jet engine companies.
	I was working for GE, and Pratt-Whitney was looking at, you'd have a liquid metal cooled reactor, Liquid metals are lousy in air and water, oh boy, and messy things.
	But you can make a much smaller reactor because it's a better heat transfer system, so the shielding, which is what I worked on, would be smaller.
	But then, at some point, you have to give the heat to the air to put it through the turbine.
	Right.
	And that's a messy, messy problem, because the metals that are good against liquid metals are lousy against oxygen.
	But you're telling me a nuclear airplane is feasible?
	Yes.
	It is feasible.
	We operated jet engines on nuclear power in 1957.
	What would be the characteristics of a nuclear airplane?
	Well, it would be big.
	That's one thing.
	It would be able to operate for a few thousand hours without refueling.
	So that, you know, you change crews, but you don't need to refuel the reactor.
	So just like submarines, they could go to the air and remain there for very long periods.
	Now, there were a bunch of applications.
	It could be a bomber, it could be cargo planes.
	At that time, we had no plane that could carry a lot of cargo from, say, the United States to the Congo or to Vietnam.
	Right.
	And the thing, when you look at the nuclear navy, one of the big advantages of nuclear power You can steam at full power all the time.
	Sure.
	Without having to worry about where am I going to get fuel to burn next week.
	Absolutely, I know.
	We have an entire nuclear navy, as do the Russians.
	What's left of it.
	Anyway, so that whole thing is applicable to flight.
	Now, there's another whole approach, too, is you can build a much smaller nuclear power plant to give you lots of electricity, just like the ones that were used in space.
	But either way, if it's feasible, Sam, why aren't we doing it?
	No guts, no leadership.
	The worst meeting I ever sat in on my life while I was working on nuclear rockets for Westinghouse, I was out in Sacramento, California, visiting Aerojet General, which was doing the engine part.
	We were doing the reactor part of a nuclear rocket system.
	We operated these on the ground.
	And I was asked to attend a meeting where the Space Nuclear Propulsion Office of NASA was trying to figure out what should they do with this nuclear rocket engine.
	They had no goal.
	Well, we could use it to put a base on the moon.
	Maybe we could go to Mars.
	Maybe Earth orbit, lunar orbit, supply systems.
	When you don't know what you want to do, you don't get funding.
	And the program was cancelled because there wasn't a mission.
	They didn't have a Rickover.
	They didn't have somebody with guts to say, here's where we're going, guys.
	You don't want to go there.
	Get off the train.
	So there was no issue of poisoning the planet?
	There was no... Well, no.
	Look, remember, a nuclear rocket engine would not be used.
	As a launch vehicle from the surface of the earth, that would be an upper stage.
	Okay.
	But when you say nuclear airplanes, in my mind, I think a replacement for a, you know, a 747 or something of that sort, that's feasible, you're saying?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Would there be any detrimental effect to the environment?
	Well, not while you're operating.
	The only thing is, if it crashes, you'd make a mess on the ground, and if you've ever been at the site of an airplane crash, you make a mess anyway.
	Well, yes, but would you make a radioactive mess?
	Let's put it that way.
	Yeah, you'd make a radioactive mess, and you'd need special handling facilities at the base where you're going to.
	But remember, with unlimited range, and there was always discussion about, well, maybe we take off on chemical and land on chemical.
	Little extra chemical, but you don't need all that fuel, in other words.
	The fuel load of those big airplanes, the C5A, 747, etc., is enormous, you know.
	You're using the fuel to lift the fuel to lift the fuel, just like in our big chemical rockets.
	That's right.
	And that's not terribly efficient when you get down to it.
	So, but you might also use a small reactor to produce electricity for a magneto-aerodynamic propulsion system, which I like.
	Sort of like the electromagnetic submarine, which was successfully tested in California back in the mid-60s, where you ionize the air, interact with electric and magnetic fields with this now electrically conducting fluid, And you can control lift, drag, heating, sonic boom production, radar profile, all those good things.
	And that's kind of neat.
	The submarine worked.
	They only spent $2,000.
	With a government program, it would have cost $200,000 and probably not worked.
	Well, in this day and age of $60 and better oil, and airlines going belly up every time we turn around, why isn't something like this being resurrected and rethought?
	It's a good question, and I don't have a good answer for you.
	Lack of courage, lack of looking at the big picture.
	Look, why don't all the ships on the ocean use nuclear power?
	The Navy certainly, an aircraft carrier, needs refueling every 18 years.
	I mean, that's impressive.
	It is impressive, and it's also a good question.
	Why don't most of them, the big ones?
	I don't know, because maybe the separation between the military and the civilian, it takes money.
	Nuclear power plants, conventional run-of-the-mill nuclear power plants, for example, are capital intensive.
	It costs a lot to build.
	It just costs much less to operate because you're not burning fuel.
	And at the end of the life of whatever it is, is it a wash?
	Has it been more expensive?
	Less expensive?
	Why?
	Oh, at the end of the life, it's been less expensive.
	Less expensive.
	Well, then we ought to have nuclear-powered cruise ships.
	We should have.
	And, you know, look, why these things aren't done has to do with larger questions of something.
	What if ports tell you that they won't let you come in because you're nuclear-powered?
	Yes.
	Oh, we better not build it!
	Well, that is true.
	And this has happened on occasion, incidentally.
	Some places in Japan don't want nuclear-powered ships in there, and other places.
	We live in a fearful society.
	We worry about the problems we can't see, but don't worry about the ones that we see all the time, because we've grown accustomed to them.
	Well, it just seems to me that the environment from then till now has radically changed, where the things we worry about now perhaps eclipse the worries that prevented the kind of technology you were talking about then from being implemented.
	But you're right.
	Of course, nobody was talking about global warming back then, and polluting the heck out of the place.
	And the weather changing before our eyes, all of these things from fossil fuels, so it would seem to me the environment now, today, might be very different.
	So do you expect any day now to see some initiative from the President for nuclear-powered stuff?
	Well, he's talked about nuclear power plants, and There is, around the world, the price of uranium has gone up steadily the last two years, and that reflects the fact that people around the world are pushing nuclear power plants because of that $60 barrel of oil, among other things.
	Yes.
	And so, you know, somebody's going to wake up and grab the ball and run with it.
	It takes money.
	It takes courage.
	And, you know, the money is around for people who want to make a fast buck.
	i guess but uh...
	the courage of short shorter supply
	stanfried men uh... just had an opportunity in september to go to china
	That is a very, very sobering experience for any American.
	Believe me, it certainly hit me like a sledgehammer.
	Going to China just shocked the hell out of me.
	And I did it quite some number of years ago now, but the level of industrialization, the Well, I was extremely impressed.
	industry going on in China actually scared me and since that was there just
	once September I'm wondering what kind of impact it had on you well I was
	extremely impressed concerned there's a little side light to that but I was I
	went to Hong Kong first This came about because a Mutual UFO Network member in Wisconsin was friendly with the son of the man who headed the Chinese UFO Society in Dalian, China, which was planning a World UFO Conference, and I was contacted to see if I might be interested, and I said, of course I would be.
	There was a little problem, like, you know, who's going to pay the freight for me to get there?
	I'd speak for free, but it's a long way from Fredericton, New Brunswick, where I live.
	Yes, it is.
	And the Hong Kong UFO Society came along.
	I had met Moon Fong, the president of it, several years ago in California.
	And so they arranged things, and they sponsored a talk by me in Hong Kong, for which they charged admission.
	Was sold out over a week in advance.
	Very pleased about that.
	A lot of interest over there then.
	Oh yeah.
	And they even had to sell some standing room only seats.
	And the three of them, the people from Hong Kong, went with me then to the World Conference in Dali in China, which is three and a half hours away.
	Mainland China?
	What?
	Mainland China?
	Oh, mainland, yes.
	Northeastern corner there, up toward Korea.
	Oh, yes.
	And so I wasn't taking the usual tours of China, but there was quite a contrast between Dalian, which is a big city, 2 to 4 million, which by Chinese standards isn't huge, but I was very impressed with Hong Kong, the airport, the new airport.
	I don't know whether you had to fly in alongside the building.
	I came in, yes, to the old landing strip stand, and that by itself was an experience of a lifetime.
	Just scared the you-know-what out of you.
	Anyway, the new airport isn't like that.
	It's way out, and it was incredible and beautifully done.
	And you know what, Art, what surprised me?
	I'm getting sick and tired of flying in the United States, taking your shoes off, waiting in long lines.
	And they're worried about nail clippers and all that kind of stuff.
	Well, in China, there wasn't any of that.
	They don't seem to be worried about who's coming or where.
	I mean, they look at your passport and look at your face and, you know, that's it.
	And it was easy going in and coming out.
	The people were friendly.
	I didn't feel a sense of a police presence anywhere.
	Boy, I sure did.
	Of course, that, again, was a number of years ago.
	It may have lightened up now.
	Well, I gather they've lightened up.
	That's what everybody tells me.
	I'll tell you, one of the things that impressed me about Hong Kong was the energy of the place.
	Yes, oh yes.
	More 50-story buildings in one small place than you can ever imagine.
	Did you get a good look at how they do the construction?
	On the high-rise buildings?
	A lot of big cranes, and they go up fast.
	That's about all I could see.
	A lot of bamboo, too.
	Anyway, I'm interested in your impression of Chinese ufology and what the Chinese are doing and allowing.
	Well, they seem to be open and free.
	I did seven interviews in Hong Kong.
	Some of them, I mean, they were all done in English, of course, because I don't speak Chinese, but some of them were for the Chinese press and some for the English press, because Hong Kong, of course, still has a substantial English-speaking population.
	And there wasn't the slightest hint of noisy negativism.
	None of the, you know, nasty cracks at the beginning.
	You don't really believe in this stuff and stuff like that.
	And I saw the press coverage, some of the English press coverage, and it was very friendly and straight.
	And in Dali and China, where the World Conference was, I was the only North American there.
	There were some people there from Hungary and Israel and Australia and a lot of people from Taiwan and Japan.
	In Korea, there were a couple of things.
	Now, the accommodations weren't that fancy in Dalian, you know, but the level of the people, they all give you business cards over there, you know, standard thing.
	And you start looking, you're dealing with engineers and scientists and professors and so forth.
	That was impressive to me.
	The name, they translated a lot of the titles.
	They had a booklet about the lectures.
	I didn't get a lot of time to speak there, but I got an award for my paper, which they had translated.
	It was government UFO lies.
	Now you can imagine they liked that.
	Oh, well, yes.
	That's why I'm having a hard time imagining ufology getting off the ground in China.
	Anything anti-government.
	But it was the U.S.
	government I was talking about!
	Well, but okay, but still, it's going to translate.
	I mean, if you get people interested in ufology in China, they're going to have to believe ultimately the same thing about their own government, aren't they?
	But they certainly, you had a feeling, a sense of openness.
	You know, for a while there was nothing in the Chinese press about UFOs.
	The floodgates opened.
	These guys are planning on sending out their newsletter, the Chinese UFO Society.
	Sam, if the floodgates opened in China, the only way that happened is by the Chinese government opening the gates.
	Oh, of course!
	No question about it.
	And what it reminded me of, strange example, but in the mid-fifties there was a big world conference on nuclear fusion in England, and the Russian scientists went over and The gates were open.
	They put out all kinds of stuff, which kind of forced the Americans to, even though, because fusion is what goes on in H-bombs, even though everything had been highly classified, by them telling us what they were doing kind of forced us to open up and tell us what we were doing.
	So, yes, I certainly agree that this had to be a conscious decision at some high level, And there seemed to be, I got no feeling of anybody worrying about what the government was going to say if they talked about it.
	Well, everybody in China worries about what the government's going to say.
	Anything that's anti-government in China is just frowned upon to the degree that people disappear.
	Oh, sure.
	What I'm getting at is that the people at the conference seem not at all to be concerned.
	Why do you think?
	I think because they felt it was safe, because the government wants to get more of this stuff out.
	I mean, look... Okay, let's ask that.
	Why would the Chinese government open the floodgates, or allow the floodgates to open, or even encourage them to open?
	Because they want us to open ours.
	That's the simplest explanation to me.
	Because they want us to open ours.
	Well, hey, if they start talking... Look, you know, they're going to go to the moon, and I don't doubt that they're planning on doing that.
	Yes, they have said so.
	Yeah, and they've had manned flights, and more than two people in this last one, I guess, and they have so much energy when they decide to do something, to push in that direction.
	It's truly incredible, and I was very impressed, and some of the papers were technical, judging by the abstracts that I saw.
	And, you know, there is some conspiracy theorists over there.
	Let me give you a strange example.
	People in Hong Kong who drive on the English side of the road, you know, thought that John Mack must have been assassinated.
	How could he get hit by a car?
	I know.
	Even though the trial, and I had to explain to them that when I went to England and walked around Hong Kong, I had to be very careful when I stepped off the curb, because you instinctively go in the wrong... you're looking the wrong way!
	Do you have any reason to believe, personally, that there was anything that we don't... No, about John Mack?
	Yes.
	As a matter of fact, you know that his family sent a letter asking leniency for the guy who was the driver.
	He was a drunk driver, and he was sent away to prison for, what, 15 months, I guess.
	They tried to mitigate his punishment, so they obviously were convinced that it wasn't a plot, an assassination, or whatever.
	Okay.
	Alright, we'll leave it there, but in Hong Kong, you're saying they may feel differently.
	Well, they did feel differently, but they weren't aware of the fact, because they drive on the English side of the road.
	You know, that when you go someplace else, Better be careful.
	China, on the other hand, incidentally, drives on the American side of the road.
	Yes.
	Yes, I know.
	Which I find interesting.
	For me, it was an interesting experience.
	They're growing.
	All right.
	Did you bring anything out of China?
	In other words, any knowledge of any occurrences?
	China's a big place.
	China has a lot of people.
	China must have a lot of stories.
	And if they're opening up, no doubt you heard some of them.
	Are there any Chinese Roswells in their history?
	I didn't hear about a Chinese Roswell, no.
	I did hear about one case in particular involved a number of military people with observations, and they seemed to be very open in talking about it, which again... Oh?
	What?
	I said, oh, as in, let's hear about it.
	Well, it was a complicated case where the thing was there and observed by people, it was reported, the military thought it was near a base, the thing went away, it came back, They saw it.
	They couldn't identify it.
	They wondered what the heck was going on.
	They wrote a report.
	It was one of those things that, gee, how could they be so open about?
	That's what our guys are so afraid to talk about.
	You know, military guys.
	Yes.
	What happens while they're in the military.
	So I think we're going to be hearing a lot more from the Chinese.
	And I think they'll be using our stuff.
	I got contacted by another Chinese scientist, actually, who's I'm going to be translating some of my things for over there, and I think that I was surprised, for example, at the number of Taiwanese scientists who were there.
	You know, you hear about the fuss between Taiwan and China, and mainland China, and I didn't see that at this conference.
	They were mingling and talking and open.
	You know, the same with the Koreans, South Koreans.
	I would imagine the main part of your talk, at least as far as ufology is concerned, would have been Roswell, am I correct?
	Well, no, in Hong Kong I gave my semi-standard, flying saucers are real, and we had three translators sitting across from me.
	I had had to work up a transcript for them so they could translate in advance, I guess, I don't read a lecture.
	I don't have a transcript of my lecture.
	I speak highly practiced extemporaneous.
	How's that?
	Try it on me.
	Flying saucers are real.
	When you begin to make that case to somebody, and that's a hell of a case to have to try to make, how do you do it?
	Well, I give my conclusions right up front, so they'll be alerted to what it is I'm going to be talking about.
	That some UFOs are really in spacecraft, that we're dealing with a cosmic Watergate, that there are no good arguments against those two conclusions, and that we're dealing with the biggest story of the millennium.
	So, now I've got their interest anyway.
	And then I review five large-scale scientific studies.
	Blue Book Special Report 14 that I talked about earlier, I talk about the UFO evidence, the calls of early and late books by the same title.
	I talk about J. Allen Hynek's book.
	I talk about the congressional hearings and especially Dr.
	James E. McDonald's outstanding paper with 41 cases that couldn't be identified.
	I deal with, uh, there's one more in there someplace.
	It doesn't matter.
	Anyway, you conclude there is a real aspect to this, and what we're seeing in our skies, at least in some cases, represents alien technology.
	Yeah, and then I deal with the four major reasons that the big shots of science and journalism haven't jumped on the pro-UFO bandwagon.
	I'd be interested in that.
	Why not?
	Ignorance of the data.
	See, after I talk about each of these large-scale scientific studies, I ask, how many people here have read this?
	You know, it's 1%, 2% on a good day.
	Right.
	So, the first is ignorance.
	I've talked to as many as 2,000 people at once, 1,000 engineers and scientists at once.
	I never get more than 1% or 2% who've reviewed any of these large sources of data.
	Now, I happen to believe that one is expressing a purportedly professional opinion from a publicly appointed pedestal.
	I like that alliteration there.
	One has an obligation.
	To have studied the data, or to shut up, or at least preface one's remarks with, look, I don't know anything about this subject.
	Here's my personal opinion.
	We're all entitled to those.
	But professional opinions about most things require knowledge and ethics.
	The second problem is the fear of ridicule, the laughter curtain.
	I check all my audiences at the end of my lectures, never at the beginning, and find that about 10% believe they've seen a flying saucer.
	Then I ask, how many of you reported what you saw?
	90% of the hands go down.
	Biggest reason for not reporting?
	They'd think I was some kind of a nut.
	Absolutely.
	There's only been a dozen PhD theses on UFOs.
	There's room for a lot more.
	The third problem is ego.
	If aliens were coming here, they'd want to talk to the National Academy of Sciences, of which I am a member, said Dr. Donald Howard Menzel.
	Ed Condon was also a member.
	You know, if they haven't asked for an appointment, they must not be coming here.
	And finally, four, it's impossible.
	And we hear the silly arguments from the SETI cultists, as well as a lot of astronomers and so forth.
	You can't get here from there.
	The SETI cultists, that's a little harsh.
	I think that their actions and their commentary deserve it, and then some, quite frankly.
	It's a really silly effort to investigate, which is even harsher, I guess.
	Well, if Rodney was here, he'd just say, why can't we get along?
	I'll get along now.
	Well, there's some good reasons.
	These guys consistently and overwhelmingly refuse to look at the UFO evidence.
	I know.
	They continue to make pronouncements.
	I know, but it's a common cause, then.
	It isn't.
	They don't want flying saucers to be real.
	That's why they don't look at the evidence.
	If they're real, who needs a radio telescope?
	Well, yes, but why can't they walk hand in hand?
	In other words, why can't they be here and also be there?
	I'm not saying there aren't guys out there.
	I am saying that the notion that they are using, you should pardon my saying this on a radio program, but that they're using the same kind of technology that we're using It's absurd!
	Our technology is a product of, what, a hundred years of development?
	Yes.
	Zeta-1 and Zeta-2 reticuli, two stars, 39 light-years away, are a billion years older than the Sun!
	Well, one might even suggest that that hundred years is magnificently short, actually, for the amount of progress, technically, that we've made.
	In fact, suspiciously, even suspiciously short.
	I would agree.
	Let's agree on that.
	But the question is, where will we be a hundred years from now?
	And, you know, we blast out radio signals.
	We were for a long time.
	Now it goes up to a satellite and comes back to Earth, doesn't it?
	Yes.
	Well, we're not going to be leaking a lot of stuff out there.
	They're assuming that there's no colonization, no migration, no travel, that the technology that's being used is such that we could pick up their signals and interpret them.
	And as they find nothing with their looking, they keep saying, well, maybe they're 500 light years away, or a thousand light years away.
	Interestingly, by the way, Stanton, they are beginning to say, even we, meaning SETI, must perhaps get to the point in the next 50 years of looking, that if we do not find something, we're going to have to conclude the possibility of there being nothing.
	They're actually beginning to say that.
	Well, they're getting discouraged because it's an empty hole that they're looking down.
	Well, if it's an empty hole that they're looking down, then aren't you worried about your part of it here?
	No, because we have evidence and they have none.
	If they're not there, then how can they be here?
	Yeah, but you won't know whether they're there or not by listening for signals.
	That it seems almost certain would not be put out by an advanced civilization because they've gone past that.
	I don't use the slide rule anymore, Art.
	I did when I started work.
	Still, though, you've got to admit, Stan, scientifically it is possible that we could suddenly begin picking something up.
	It's not out of the realm.
	Well, if we do, so what?
	How far away will it be?
	Wait a minute.
	What do you mean, so what?
	I mean, that would be a big occurrence.
	If we suddenly began to receive signals that were unquestionably alien and unquestionably intelligent, it wouldn't be a so what moment.
	Then we have SETI, which believes that they might indeed be out there and there might be some sort of signal to be received.
	Both organizations are laughed at.
	Both organizations are woefully underfunded.
	Both movements are ignored and, you know, just made a laughing stock of.
	and to have dissension among two groups that you would think would have common
	interest is uh...
	sort of sad i believe basically the last thing stan said what it was uh...
	in the last hour that if something was detected if we did suddenly get a
	signal and it was obviously alien and obviously intelligent uh...
	though being light years away if not hundreds of light years away
	we'd go whole home
	Do you really think that, Stan?
	Well, again, it would depend on the circumstances.
	You know, if it's an intentional signal, you see, Are we listening to noise, their equivalent of I Love Lucy kind of thing?
	Or are we getting a signal that says here we are in Zeta Reticuli and you guys don't know it but you're one of our colonies that went bad and we're going to be visiting soon and you better be ready.
	That would be a serious message.
	Yeah, that would be a serious message indeed, but the point is What's different between the SETI people and us ufology types, at least in my case anyway, I shouldn't speak for everybody though, I'm on the board of MUFUN and I think it's doing a lot of good stuff, is that they think of us as the crown of creation, the equivalent of everybody else out there.
	There's a wonderful woman physicist in Europe, Beatriz Cabo Rivera, Who points out that it's much more likely that we're like the gorillas in the nature preserve in Africa who have no idea at all of what's going around outside their preserve.
	And so, we're not equals with a hundred years of technology.
	And remember, if the signal is coming from five hundred years away, or light years away, that means that there are a lot of years ahead of us.
	Yes, no question.
	So, I think that The fact that, you know, it's like the cargo cult in New Guinea.
	They didn't know what was going on outside of them until they saw the airplanes in World War II.
	There's one big major difference.
	When Seth and I each gave... Seth Shostak, who debated on your program... Yes.
	When we were each... We each gave three lectures on the Queen Elizabeth II back a couple years ago.
	I listened carefully to his.
	He attended two of mine.
	I'm signing books for the third one.
	When it came time to being on the program, it was as if I hadn't said anything.
	I read two of his books.
	He didn't read anything of mine.
	And if you look at the referencing at the back of his books and Jill Tarter and the other SETI people, you won't find any mention of the large-scale scientific studies.
	All they can say is there is no evidence.
	I must admit, having interviewed Seth many times... Did he know anything about UFOs?
	By the end of the program, Stan, I generally almost had to beg him to read some things, to see a few videos so that he could comment, because his comment was always, sorry, don't know a thing about it, haven't heard about it, don't know anything about it, you'd have to show me.
	And so, yeah, that's been his attitude.
	That's fair to say.
	But it's still Carter's.
	It's the other leader's upsetting.
	Well, even all of that said, and I do recognize that sad attitude, the two of you should have more in common than not.
	And yet, you don't.
	Well, the thing is, I'm dealing with testimony from people here on this planet.
	I'm dealing with the government cover-up, the Cosmic Watergate, if you want to call it.
	You never hear them talk about the national security implications of alien technology floating around in our skies.
	We're getting older.
	You may have to come up with something newer than Watergate.
	Well, okay, I'll try to.
	No, you're right, and look, I'm an old guy, and I'm resistant to new technology, but I've made two steps.
	Anybody who looks at my website, which is listed on yours, but www.stantonfriedman.com, will notice that for the first time ever, there's a PayPal button.
	That's a breakthrough for me!
	Is it?
	You know, I've not been enthusiastic about PowerPoint, for example.
	I like slides, because they're versatile and have much higher resolution.
	So I assume this PayPal thing is so that people can Yeah, they can buy my stuff and do it the easy way, and it saves me a lot of trouble, and especially my new book, the second edition of Top Secret Magic.
	Oh yes, is there anything in the book, in the book now, the new edition, that was not previously there?
	Oh yeah, there's a whole 5,000 word chapter that Deals with all the nasty, noisy, negativism.
	I can't help it.
	Some of that, as you know, has passed away.
	Well, yeah, Phil Klass passed away.
	That's right.
	We've got a couple of stories.
	I've got a couple of stories.
	Have you commented publicly on his passing?
	Yes.
	As a matter of fact, I do a monthly column for the Mufon Journal.
	How did you handle it?
	And what I said, I gave him compliments for being probably the most effective propagandist of the past 50 years, anyway, by single-handedly convincing the scientific and journalistic communities that there was nothing to UFOs, leave it to Phil, there's nothing there, all sightings have prosaic explanations, there's no cover-up, etc.
	And that is quite a feat, as a matter of fact.
	Is there going to be another Phil Kless?
	Well, there already are some contenders for the throne.
	Joe Nickell is one, of course.
	He's the scientific investigator for Sikop, and his three degrees are in English, which is a discontinuity.
	There's some place, but anyway.
	Robert Schaeffer wrote an appreciation of Phil in the current issue of The Skeptical Inquirer.
	And to illustrate the problems I have with these people, these nasty, noisy negativists, he says in there that nobody paid Phil, there was an agreement he was offering $10,000 and you'd put up a certain amount of money a year for so many years if the government announced that indeed there were flying saucers or the National Academy of Sciences, something like that.
	And he said Nobody kept to the terms of the agreement, and Friedman made a few payments, but it would have to be $250 a year for 20 years.
	Well, the fact of the matter is that I did publicly make my first payment, and then made nine more payments of $100 a year, not $250, and it was for 10 years.
	And I have a letter from Phil commenting about that.
	And, you know, what's the difference between 250 a year for 20 years versus 100 a year for 10?
	And I did make all 10 payments.
	And then he neglected to mention another agreement we had, which is that he challenged me about one of the MJ-12 documents, the Cutler-Twining Memo, a one-pager that mentions NSC MJ-12, National Security Council MJ-12 Special Studies Project.
	And, of course, he said it's obviously a phony And he pointed out, as of course I had already noted, that it was done in the large PICA type, but it should have been done in the small elite type, because the National Security Council and the White House use the elite type, and he could prove it with these nine documents that he had obtained by mail.
	He, of course, had never been to the Eisenhower Library, and this was 1954 when Eisenhower was president, and he challenged me He offered me $100 each for every genuine letter, memo, etc.
	done in the same size and style type as the Cutler-Twining memo.
	Unfortunately, he set a limit of 10.
	Oh, I see.
	Did you make all 10?
	Oh, I sent him 14.
	If he hadn't set the limit, I'd have been a wealthy man.
	And he sent me a check for $1,000.
	I see.
	He told everybody about challenging me and nobody about paying me and then got very upset When I included a copy of his check and our correspondence in my final report on Operation Majestic 12, which was way back in 1990, I got a research grant from the Fund for UFO Research, so I included that.
	He threatened me with a lawsuit for including that.
	I said, Phil, you sent me the check, I Xeroxed it, I cashed it, it was good, I can do whatever I please with the Xerox of the check.
	Well, truth is good defense, you know.
	Yeah, yeah, and so, but I mean, here's the noisy negativist saying something that was totally off the wall.
	Now, there's another thing about, Phil, I don't know whether anybody's talked about this on your program, but concerning the hour you want, you're on and stuff, I don't often catch it, but Richard Dolan, who wrote UFOs and the National Security State, In September, before coming to a conference in Toronto, at which I was also a speaker, was up at the National Archives of Canada in Ottawa.
	The last folder he was able to look at, because time was running out, had a letter from Philip J. Class to Dr. A.C.
	McNamara at the Hertzberg Institute of Astrophysics at the National Research Council in Ottawa, Canada.
	The one pager I regret that I must bring bad tidings in re your UFO responsibilities.
	The NRC was collecting UFO reports.
	But trust that like the proverbial messenger shall not be executed for doing so.
	I have reason to believe this is dated August 15th, 1980.
	I have reason to believe that Canada will soon gain a, quote, noted, unquote, ufologist, full-time UFO lecturer of the snake oil salesman variety, who will soon move to Canada to become its chief UFO guru.
	I'm not sure where he will take up residence, but I can assure you that you and your associates will be publicly accused of a UFO cover-up, or a cosmic cover-up, as he is prone to say, that dwarfs the Watergate scandal.
	His name is Stanton Friedman.
	He was trained as a nuclear physicist, worked in nuclear propulsion for five different companies in fourteen years, before being laid off and becoming a full-time UFO lecturer.
	Since the early seventies, he's earned a comfortable living in the lecture circuit, mostly to junior colleges and the like, which is sort of nonsensical.
	His lectures are very colorful, for he is quite a showman, unlike Koenig, whose lectures are rather dull.
	His one-hour lecture is so filled with half-truths and falsehoods that it would take me several hours to offer a rebuttal.
	And like wrestling with an octopus when you manage to pin down one leg, the other seven are still thrashing about.
	I'm enclosing a white paper.
	That was not with this, unfortunately.
	Friedman and I are, quote, friends, unquote, of sorts, and off the stage on non-UFO subjects, he can be a likable chap with a good sense of humor.
	But since his livelihood now depends on UFOs and he has a mountainous ego and knows how to make newspaper headlines, I would expect that he will be making waves for you and your associates.
	I understand that his decision to move to Canada is prompted by the fact that his lecture business in the U.S.
	has fallen off while that from Canada is growing, plus the fact that his current second wife was, is, a Canadian.
	The foregoing should provide you with a capsule summary of the man and hopefully alert you to deal cautiously with him.
	Fascinating.
	Knowing that he is inclined, you know, this is the kind of thing, you know, he attacked Jim McDonald, he attacked the University of Nebraska, this is dirty pool.
	I did move to Canada two weeks later, almost exactly two weeks later, because my wife is from Canada.
	And I've lived here for 25 years.
	My wife's one of nine kids.
	And what were the repercussions of that letter?
	I know of none, actually.
	And I didn't know, but Richard Dolan thought I knew all about it.
	I've never seen it, so he publicized it.
	While we're on the subject, a listener asks, when you were younger, Stanton, did you ever feel that, you know, your interest in UFOs, public, it was kind of public, ever jeopardized your security clearance?
	Well, I was concerned about that, because when I first started, I was working on nuclear rockets.
	Exactly.
	You know, and I was worried, and I was starting to do the chicken and pea circuit, you know, and then I was doing a lot of professional groups.
	I love this junior college remark.
	You know, I spoke at that time, Carnegie Mellon University, the Engineering Society of Detroit, and so forth.
	So I went to my management, and I said, look, you know, I needed a statement from you guys as to what I can and can't do.
	I mean, I've got a wife, and kids, and a house, and mortgage, and clearance.
	Oh, how interesting.
	And so how did they come back?
	Two weeks later, a week later actually, they came back with three rules.
	They said, Stan, you can say what you please on your time.
	Two, you can identify yourself as a Westinghouse nuclear physicist.
	Three, We'd like you to start with a disclaimer that says the opinions you're about to hear are mine, and mine alone, and not those of my employer.
	Uh-huh.
	Now, who could ask for anything more, but they did something more.
	I got a call from a colleague at Los Alamos National Laboratory, also working on radiation shielding for nuclear rockets.
	Yes.
	And he says, Stan, would you think you could talk to our local chapter, the American Nuclear Society?
	I said, sure, and we talked a little more, and then he made clear that He meant if I could come out on an expense account.
	I live in Pittsburgh.
	We're talking New Mexico.
	Oh.
	And I said, well, I don't make those decisions.
	So I went to management and I said, this is what they want.
	Totally above board.
	And they came back to me and said, sure.
	Did they now?
	Why do you think they would do that?
	Well, they're a corporate member of the American Nuclear Society.
	I'm a member of the American Nuclear Society.
	Oh, well, I know.
	But in view of what you were going to, I presume, discuss.
	They knew what I was... Management had heard me.
	One of the talks that made a big difference to me was to a combined meeting of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics.
	Okay, well then this really begs a bigger question, Stanton, and I'll ask it.
	I've often wondered, you know, in my radio career, and I wonder if you've wondered, if you were sort of an unintentional Pawn that you were being used by certain people for certain
	purposes and that occasionally things like this would happen
	That would seem unaccountably good luck. Let's put it that way
	Well, I think yeah, I have I've told people I've had a guy ask me first question on a talk show
	somewhere was how come you're still alive well
	And I tell people maybe I'm doing exactly what they want.
	Yeah, same answer.
	In other words, so much so that somebody wants you to keep going in the direction you're going for whatever their reason.
	They're certainly well aware of me.
	I've had Air Force colonels sitting next to me at lectures, uh, dinner lectures, you know.
	And, uh, so, uh, you know, when, when that first somebody sent you an email about, you know, and why am I so frustrated?
	It must be terribly frustrating and stuff like that.
	That's right.
	I don't think so because look, I get big crowds.
	I've had 2000 people at a college.
	Engineering Society of Detroit was sold out three weeks in advance for 1,008 people for dinner and a talk.
	I've had 11 hecklers and over 700 lectures, and two of them were drunk.
	You're going to have that many if you talk about sports, religion, politics.
	Oh, sure.
	You know, anybody who thinks you're going to convince 100% of the people of anything is wrong.
	It's not a bad record.
	No.
	And so, I find it rewarding.
	I've been back to some schools five times.
	I gave a talk to newspaper editors from all over Canada at a local meeting convention, I guess, and somebody knew somebody and I got asked to speak to them.
	I got a wonderful letter back saying I really opened a lot of eyes by presenting facts and data that they weren't aware of.
	So, I've had people listen to my talk and then go on to teach a course about UFOs.
	So, it's been very rewarding in the sense of People I have to respect.
	I mentioned this meeting of the joint AIAA and IEEE group in Pittsburgh.
	Right.
	And over 400 people.
	Packed house.
	Wasn't one negative question.
	They came at me with money to buy copies of this Blue Book Special Report 14.
	My boss's boss three levels up was there.
	Alright, very quickly, toward the bottom of the hour here at Stanton, for years and years, the MJ-12 documents have been circulating now on the internet.
	And many people have sort of had them and read a little bit of them.
	After all these years, can you tell all the people out there that what they're reading, these MJ-12 documents, are the real McCoy?
	well okay i can tell you that the original mj twelve documents the
	briefing for president-elect eisenhower this cutler twining memo that i
	mentioned yes and the uh...
	forest all of truman forestall letter I think this would be a good place to plug Stanton's
	website.
	Stanton, in separating the wheat from the chaff with regard to the MJ-12 documents, I would assume that on your website you have done so and have the documents no doubt available for download or whatever, right?
	Well, they're in the book and I have, yeah, actually there's a paper on there, sort of an update on Majestic-12, and this chapter in my book A whole new chapter in the book just came out this past September.
	It's already in a second printing, which is a good sign, I guess.
	I review the objections.
	Lots of them that have come out since the book was originally published in 1996.
	And there's been no shortage of objections.
	But I try to point out, and I also point out, of course, that a bunch of documents are fraudulent.
	Look, my approach to this kind of thing is I've been to 20 archives.
	Early on, I talked to the families of all but two of the original MJ-12 people to get more insight into the people.
	I visit, I look at their papers, I find out what they were doing.
	I found people who, a man named George Elsie, worked for President Truman the entire time he was in the White House.
	I didn't ask him, oh, are the documents genuine?
	I asked, did you see any reason why they Well, what about when you're trying to actually nail down and verify the veracity of a document?
	How do you do that?
	There's several different things you have to do.
	Remember the original two MJ-12 documents, the briefing for President-elect Eisenhower, dated 18 November, almost an anniversary of that, 1952.
	This is before he became President, after he was elected.
	The original came on a roll of film, so you don't have any paper to test.
	You can't test ink on those.
	So you have to look at the content, the style, and is there any information that we didn't know was true when we got the document?
	That we now do.
	That we now do.
	And this is where minutiae comes into play.
	For example, I mentioned this Cutler-Twining memo in class saying the pica type was wrong.
	He was flat out wrong.
	There's another thing in there.
	And that one is an original document, it's an original carbon, onion skin.
	I think you're old enough to remember the use of onion skin.
	I am.
	And some people, what do you mean onion skin?
	That's when they use carbon paper, remember that?
	Yes.
	And that one, you can see the watermark on it if you go to the National Archives.
	And that goes in the name of the company, and it gives you the dictation on your skin, and you find out when it was made, and it fits, everything's okay on that score.
	The security marking on it was top-secret restricted, and a whole bunch of people, including the government, said, oh, that wasn't in use at that time, obviously a fraud.
	Well, the General Accounting Office, when they were doing a search for Roswell stuff for Congressman Stephen Schiff, noted that at one of the facilities they were visiting, Several instances of the use of top-secret restricted, even though they had been told, majestic 12 in quotes, in parentheses, that it was not in use at that time.
	Now, I tried to get copies of those.
	They said, Stan, the stuff's classified.
	You can't get copies.
	We couldn't make copies.
	Well, as I recall, the congressman was woefully disappointed in that a great deal... How much of that information was... Who knows?
	I didn't know you used the word destroy, or lost, or misplaced, or... Who knows?
	You don't get to see a lot of very highly classified, top secret code word stuff.
	It's very hard to find.
	And one of the things, one of the many false notions that people have is that everything is automatically declassified after so many years.
	The Eisenhower Library, as of two years ago, still had 300,000 pages of classified material.
	That's a lot.
	It is a lot.
	And there were still, I forget, 40,000 at the Truman Library.
	So, you know, the notion that... Anyway, bottom line, you consider this briefing business to be the real McCoy?
	Yeah, one of the biggest objections, incidentally.
	I'll just mention two.
	There are a bunch of others that I cover in this chapter in Top Secret Magic 2nd Edition, One of them, a military man, said, look, it says briefing officer Admiral Roscoe H. Hillencoder.
	He had been Director of Central Intelligence in 1947 at the end.
	And he would never have called himself Admiral because he was only a Rear Admiral in 1952.
	Ha ha, obviously a fraud.
	Well, when I was at the Eisenhower Library, I had a bunch of memcons, a memorandum of meetings, actually, at the White House.
	Written by First Colonel and then Brigadier General Goodpaster.
	And at the beginning of each of these memos, which often had a mix of civilians and military people, and some were top secret, some just plain secret, some confidential, he listed the attendees.
	And in every case, he used generic rank, including for himself.
	General Goodpest.
	We didn't say Brigadier General.
	It's SIGNED Brigadier General.
	So I asked the archivist, I said, what about this use of generic rank?
	You know, General to mean Lieutenant, Major, Brigadier, etc.
	Admiral would cover all the variations.
	I said, does that bother you?
	And two different ones I asked independently.
	No, that was standard practice.
	One of Ike's books, he uses generic ranks.
	And because I was at the Eisenhower Library, incidentally, They got big, fat books that'll tell you who everybody was, so I could check to see whether General Jones was a one-star, two-star, or four-star, and almost always he wasn't a four-star.
	So, in validating this material, it really does seem to come down to the minutiae, really, to the minutiae of everything.
	Every little tiny, tiny point can get argued to death, huh?
	Well, the contrast between myself and the noisy negativist on the subject is they're armchair theorists.
	Let me give you another example.
	Dr. Joseph Nickel said, well, obviously the date format proves the documents are wrong.
	18 November comma 1952 violates the government style manual.
	Well, when you go to the archives, I found one file folder had seven date formats in it.
	So it doesn't violate it?
	No, it doesn't.
	There were a whole bunch of these minutiae of the right thing.
	There's no signature on the Cutler-Twining memo, just the name, Robert Cutler.
	He was Ike's National Security Advisor.
	How many more points like that are there in all of this?
	Points of contention, I guess I ought to ask.
	Are there many, many more?
	Well, the noisy negativists have raised about two dozen, and I've dealt with all of them.
	I still haven't found any that is satisfactory.
	Now, you've got to probe.
	You've got to do your homework.
	And you haven't found any that made you go, huh?
	Really?
	No, not about these three documents.
	Now, there's a whole bunch of other ones that I demonstrate, again, by finding the original, the technique that was used to create at least seven emulations, I call them.
	You find a real document in a book, for example.
	Found three of them in a book by General Albert C. Wiedemeyer.
	Wiedemeyer reports he was a China expert.
	Right.
	Who was sent to China in the summer of 1947.
	There are three of the documents were... The handwritten portions were Xeroxed or scanned.
	It doesn't matter.
	Same difference.
	And they retyped it with just a few changes.
	And a few mistakes, usually.
	To make what look like genuine documents, but once you find the original and you see that this is clearly an emulation of that.
	Right.
	So I found seven of those.
	And the technique was the same in every case.
	The handwritten stuff, three different words.
	I approve Harry S. Truman, July 9th, 1947.
	You can put them right on top of each other.
	So you're concluding the same author?
	Yeah, the same technique, certainly the same person doing this.
	It doesn't take much effort when you do it that way, in other words.
	Alright, well you've gone through a lot of work for us, so in the new chapter in your book, you sort of lay down what's real, what's not.
	Yes.
	Alright, well that alone makes it worthwhile, so you've got this new PayPal thing, people can quickly get your book and... Or if they don't belong, if they don't have a PayPal account, they can Send me a check for $17 to Stanton Friedman, Post Office Box 958 Holton, H-O-U-L-T-O-N, Maine, M-E-O-4-7-3-O-0-9-5-8.
	If they get it from me, I autograph it, whether it's PayPal or by check.
	I want to give out a toll-free number because I'm looking for people, Art, who have questions about this stuff.
	And we're racing The Undertaker.
	Yeah, I know.
	We all are.
	I just had a new email about somebody who might be a Roswell witness.
	We'll get to the witness thing in a moment, but there's a good question, Stan.
	How old are you now?
	71. 71.
	Both parents live to be 89.
	Well that's good, but I mean I'm already 60 and many of us are getting on up there.
	Do you expect that anything headline breaking in this area will occur while you're still alive?
	I'm an optimist, and I say I will expect it, but of course I could be hit by a truck tomorrow, you know.
	So, yeah, I'm still optimistic.
	We have a whole generation of people who are hooked on space, if you will.
	They don't have any problem.
	This new Australian survey, 60% of those, 80-some percent thought there's life in outer space, and 60% say they've already come here.
	We're getting rid of the old guys who aren't paying attention to the data.
	You know, a great German physicist, Max Planck, once said, new ideas come to be accepted not because their opponents come to believe in them, but because their opponents die and a new generation grows up that's accustomed to them.
	Now, what I'm looking for is a reporter who wants a Pulitzer Prize, you know, like Woodward Bernstein kind of thing.
	And, you know, Something else that's happening is relevant here.
	The people's trust in the government of the United States telling the truth has eroded.
	I think that's a fair word, wouldn't you say?
	An understatement, probably.
	Yeah, and so they're questioning official pronouncements.
	They realize that they've been had in a number of instances.
	That's a help in the direction of getting people to understand that there's more going on than they know about.
	Now, and I'm also, you know, pleased to see young people like John Greenewalt with the Black Vault website loaded with documents.
	We need more young people to get involved.
	Join Meal Fund, folks!
	Come on!
	But let me give out my toll-free number for those people that I want to find before they die.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	He's still looking for Roswell Witnesses, folks.
	Well, not only Roswell, 877-457-0232.
	That's 877-457-0232.
	A toll-free number.
	Yeah. Don't call while I'm on the radio, because it's the same phone line.
	And no, aren't paid for the phone call to me, folks, if you're wondering about that.
	Yes, indeed, we are paying.
	All right, but you do, you want, what category of people?
	Okay, several.
	One of them is, of course, Roswell people.
	People who were there, people who know about MJ-12, people who, like General DuBose said to me when he was 80, what can they do to me now?
	Somebody's already calling.
	You shouldn't give that out until the end of the program.
	Yeah, sorry about that, but anybody... Don't call until later, please.
	This happens every time, Stanton.
	Yeah.
	I want Roswell-related or MJ-12-related people, but then I also want people who, in 1952, I worked with Frank Ficino on his book, The Braxton County Monster, cover for the Flatwoods Monster Reveal, happened in 1252, and the kicker is that some people complained.
	You talk about dogfights between military planes and UFOs, and I had to We did a lot of looking, and we found loads of instances of such dogfights.
	And what we also found, to my surprise, believe it or not, was that orders were issued to military pilots to shoot down UFOs if they don't land when instructed to do so.
	This is in the summer of 52.
	Think about that for a minute.
	Oh, I thought a lot about that.
	Now, there's another quote that we found General Roger Raimi stated that we have scrambled jets after UFOs hundreds of times.
	Hundreds of times.
	He didn't say a few or several.
	Hundreds of times.
	Hundreds of times.
	Now, in addition to this, I have on seven different occasions heard from people quietly.
	Nobody was looking for publicity on this.
	Of situations in which more than one airplane went up after UFOs and fewer came down.
	Are you telling me that military pilots have been lost?
	Yes, and as a matter of fact, in 1952 there was an unbelievable number of military aircraft crashes, including, and this one shook me up, there were three pilots who'd fought in Korea, where they were being chased by MiGs, you know?
	Yes. Came back. They did over a hundred missions over there.
	Must be pretty good pilots, don't you think?
	Excellent. They came back and crashed. Three different ones.
	There were reports of planes that, quote, disintegrated, whatever that's supposed to mean, and planes that, quote,
	disappeared.
	It means exactly that.
	Chief, where to begin?
	Back up a little bit.
	Where have there been reports of planes disintegrating?
	In the United States, eastern part of the country, in the summer of 52, 53.
	Disintegrating?
	Yeah, I mean, you know, just a little article in the New York Times.
	It's crazy, and so we followed this up and we went back to the old books, Kehoe's books, And it's clear that there were indeed battles between fighters and UFOs.
	And Frank tells the story in the book, and there's a new edition being put together as we speak.
	I wrote the foreword and the epilogue to the Braxton County Monster cover of the Flatwoods Monster Revealed.
	It's listed on my website.
	With regard to dog fights, is there actual...
	I don't know.
	Any paper on the radio transmissions that occurred, or what, I mean, how's it documented?
	Well, I'll give you one example of a guy who managed to live to tell the tale.
	This guy is a lawyer now.
	He's 78.
	He was a Navy pilot.
	He was on duty, and the radar people at another base instructed him to, you know, there was a scramble.
	Dashed to his airplane, took off, I got up to 20,000 feet, they had vectored him in, told him what direction to go, you know, and so forth.
	He sees this UFO down below, bright light, and then he watches as it comes up to his 20,000 feet altitude, and then it's coming straight at him.
	He pulls, presses the trigger, I don't know whether you pull it or push it, on his guns, and nothing happens.
	There was a bright light coming from this thing, and I said, that's probably why you're alive, isn't it?
	Somebody had forgotten the plane wasn't loaded with ammunition, it had been sitting out on the carpet.
	Oh, no kidding.
	Then he was interrogated for several hours after that.
	Nobody doubting what he was saying, but wanting the details.
	You know, what direction and how fast did it move, and you know, all the kind of stuff that... Do you recall any of that?
	Yeah, he spent hours with these guys.
	And so, that one I happened to talk to, and I've talked to others who One guy was at Andrews Air Force Base in the middle of Lesson 52, where two pilots went up, one came back, and the guy was just ashen-faced, and all he could say was, he went straight up.
	The other plane never came back, and they put out a story, it must have crashed into the ocean.
	Too bad.
	The other, so only one pilot came back?
	Yeah, two went up, one came back.
	And again, the story of the one who didn't?
	He went straight up?
	I think the guy was talking about the UFO went straight up.
	Well, what happened to the other guy?
	Who knows?
	We don't know.
	Once again, Stanton Friedman.
	Stanton, you say that it's not science fiction, that one of a crew was simply gone.
	No, no, the plane.
	The whole plane.
	Two planes go up and one of them never came back.
	But you mentioned one man, I thought, who didn't come back.
	Or by that you meant a man in plane.
	Man in a plane.
	Man in a plane, alright.
	Yeah, man in a plane.
	Somehow I have this vision of one popping up through a canopy.
	No, no, sorry.
	I don't know how to do that.
	As in abducted.
	Maybe they do.
	As in abducted.
	And the reason I bring up abducted is because we didn't want to get done here without talking a little bit about...
	A new book about abductions.
	I actually mentioned this to a female caller, Stan, in the first hour.
	She was talking about an encounter with an abduction type experience.
	And I mentioned that there had been some things written recently putting all this off to psychological whatever.
	Yeah, nonsense.
	Sleep paralysis, etc.
	But let me tell them, I'm looking for two other groups of people so that they can contact me later.
	Roswell and what else?
	Roswell, people who were on the ground or other pilots who know about planes disappearing.
	That was in 1952 when they were ordered to shoot down planes, UFOs if they didn't land when instructed.
	Anybody who knows more about the Flatwoods Monster case, that was September 12th, 1952, Flatwoods, Virginia.
	I'm also looking, I've been re-looking at the Betty and Barney Hill case, partly because the new book has some stupid things to say about that case, but I actually visited the location where the abduction took place, and I dug out a lot more material and One of them was a letter that I had from the newsman who first broke that story, much to the Hill's shock, if you will, in a Boston paper.
	He had found 10 or 12 other witnesses to a UFO that night.
	That's September 19th and 20th, 1961, in New Hampshire.
	It turns out there was also a radar sighting, not only from Pease Air Force Base in New Hampshire, From a place in Vermont, a military radar sighting, and as with the Braxton, the Flatwoods case, really, the Blue Book files have a lot more information that you never heard about.
	And so I'm looking for those people to get in touch with me.
	Witness names won't be used without permission, because it's counterproductive for me to do that.
	But before you go to the wild beyond, you sure ought to tell your story.
	And as I said before, as General DuBose told me involved with the Roswell case, what can they do to me now?
	He said that when he was 86.
	If he remembers anything more, he'll tell me.
	And so, you know, these people are not young anymore.
	Okay, back to abductions.
	Yeah, there is a new book.
	The author, Dr. Susan Clancy, was on that Peter Jennings special.
	We could spend the whole program talking about that, but I won't, but there's a write-up on my website at www.stantonfriedman.com.
	She was also on the Larry King special, and she's, you know, pushing always toward sleep paralysis, totally ignoring, as they did on the air, the multiple witness cases, you know, like we got a new contagious disease, sleep paralysis, which is pretty silly.
	Well, alright, but let's back up a little bit and let me get over on her side, play devil's advocate, whatever you want to say.
	I mean, look, I take a lot of calls here on the air about people who claim to have been abducted with varying stories to go with them.
	Some of them, yes, sound very, very convincing.
	I just know there's an underlying problem.
	Yeah, I agree with you.
	So, Stanton, there are going to be a healthy percentage that do have underlying other problems.
	Gee, and Barry Bonds doesn't hit a home run every time it goes to bat either.
	Well, I guess the question is, what kind of numbers are we talking about here?
	Do you think?
	Percentages?
	I have no idea about what percentage.
	All I know is that if you take what the work Bud Hopkins has done and David Jacobs... Oh, of course, yes, of course.
	We're talking over a thousand people that they have looked at very carefully.
	And the problem with the new book by Dr. Clancy is she hasn't done her homework.
	I mean, the taxpayers funded that work because it was research grants at Harvard.
	But her bias shows up.
	So clearly, right at the beginning, she does mention a few cases, gets the facts wrong and all, but let me quote right from the book.
	She's talking about she'd been working with false memories of sexual abuse victims.
	Yes.
	And of course, there's a problem.
	You don't know whether the abuse actually happened, you know, umpteen years before or not.
	That's right.
	But now she was going to switch to working with abductees.
	She says, quote, Here is a group that had repressed memories, but the memories would be much less painful to hear about than memories of childhood sexual abuse.
	Even better, alien abductees were people who had developed memories of a traumatic event that I could be fairly certain had never occurred.
	Oh, the bias right there, okay.
	Yeah, and another few words later, I needed to repeat the study, the sexual abuse study, really, with the population That I could be sure had recovered false memories.
	Alien abduction seemed to fit the bill.
	And then she goes on to talk about corroboration, which is a big issue in false memories.
	And then she says, since it was certain that the event hadn't happened, and provided further support for the hypothesis that people who recovered memories were creating false memories of events they had merely imagined.
	She goes on from there while... Okay, so the whole basic premise of her study was that these things just flat didn't happen, and so... Yeah, there was no evidence.
	Aliens don't exist.
	Yes.
	And she... I get it.
	She doesn't get things right.
	For example, she talks about the Allagash case.
	She doesn't mention the word Allagash, but about two brothers who were in a canoe up in Maine, and they saw a bright light, and then later... This happened in the 60s, she said.
	I'm truncating the story here.
	And later, one of them fell down an elevator shaft and developed brain damage and mental epilepsy, and then they wrote a book about it.
	Well, the case happened in 1976.
	There were four people involved, not two.
	They were all looked at separately, and the book was written by an engineer, Ray Fowler.
	How can you get everything wrong?
	I want to ask you about one.
	I spent a great deal of time and effort interviewing Travis Walton and his boss, as you know.
	Mike Rogers, yes.
	At that time, Mike Rogers.
	And I buy their stories, Stanton, then and now.
	So do I. You do?
	In my movie, UFOs Are Real, which isn't on the list on my website, sorry, but it is available still.
	We visited Travis and Mike in Travis' house in Snowflake, Arizona.
	Uh-huh.
	I met his family.
	I've seen him at other conferences.
	We've been on television shows together.
	I was at the actual location out in the woods there and watching him wield a chainsaw.
	You realize why the cops might have thought chainsaw murder.
	Boy, that's... Yeah, there were too many witnesses.
	It happened.
	I'm fully convinced that it happened, and all she says about that is she Makes a quick comment, and then he wrote a book, and then there was a movie, and he wrote another book, and, you know, like, there's something wrong with writing books, she says, in a book that she has written based on work that was done under a government research contract.
	I mean, think about that!
	Wait a minute, what's going on here?
	Well, yeah, but to be fair, do you think that her main objective was to trash all this, or do you think that she might have had an honest, intellectual, Well, you know, an epiphany that this group is... These things really didn't happen.
	It's not that wild an assumption to make, and so... But the kicker is that if she had been honest, she would have investigated any of these cases.
	She didn't investigate any of them, and there was nobody in the study... I mean, she's big on sleep paralysis.
	You know, Travis wasn't sleeping when that happened.
	Oh, no.
	The Hills weren't sleeping.
	Her comment about the Hills She uses a real UFO expert.
	She quotes Seth Shostak as saying, oh, the reason they were believed is they were Mr. and Mrs. Front Porch.
	We have a mixed racial couple in New Hampshire in 1961, and this is your average American couple?
	I mean, come on!
	Well... And she never mentions the star map work, of course.
	She never mentions physical trace cases.
	She keeps saying UFOs don't exist, aliens don't exist, but she doesn't refer to any of those large-scale scientific studies that I talked about.
	So if it was an honest attempt, you'd think she'd look at the overall phenomena.
	Well, maybe.
	Maybe a scientist just simply makes the assumption that, look, this stuff didn't happen, so let's look at the psychological reason that this person thinks it did happen.
	You know, they used to say priests didn't attack young boys, too.
	Remember?
	It was the kid who was telling this crazy story who should be castigated because that nice priest didn't do it.
	Yeah.
	Well, we don't believe that anymore.
	Now we know that some... Were there false accusations?
	I'm sure there were.
	I wouldn't doubt that at all.
	Hey, get on the bandwagon!
	Well, but again, the question is, what do you think she would conclude, or do you conclude, about the percentage of real versus apparent other problems?
	Well, I think that, you know, if you look at investigated cases, and remember, all she did was run an ad in the paper.
	Yes.
	Looking for people who claim to have been abducted, and she said she threw out the obvious nuts, and there were some, and of course there would be.
	I find some of these people find me.
	I don't find them occasionally.
	But it's a significant number of people who have been abducted and who have recalled the whole experience.
	Boy, I'll say.
	Listen, I could open the phone lines right now and we'd be flooded.
	Abduction after abduction after abduction.
	And they would tell their stories in some great detail.
	Well, what I want is the cases that have been investigated by somebody like Bud, you see.
	Who doesn't lead his witnesses and does everything possible to mislead them, if you can.
	Yes.
	You know, what color hair did they have?
	Was it blonde, black, red?
	There's a long pause.
	He was very careful in his controls, wasn't he?
	That's right.
	Yes.
	Very careful.
	And remember that a significant percentage, 20 or more percent of the people at Budworth who came to him because they thought they had a possible experience.
	He concluded he didn't have an experience, that there were other problems there.
	So it's not like he jumps on a bandwagon with everybody.
	And, you know, that's the crazy thing here, that, you know, if you're going to focus on supernova, for example, most stars are not supernovas.
	You know?
	But there are some that are.
	Black holes.
	That's right.
	You throw out the stuff that's irrelevant to what you're looking at.
	Are there phony reports of abductions?
	Of course.
	Look, every police force will tell you they get confessions from people who couldn't possibly have committed the crime.
	You know, but that's the price you pay.
	I asked an RCMP officer here in Fredericton, where the provincial capital... I said, look, when you have a high-profile case, say a murder, and you ask for help from the public, Do you get a lot of responses?
	Oh yes, we get hundreds of calls.
	What percentage of those are useful, I ask?
	Oh, two or three percent, he said, but that's how we solve most crimes.
	Well, that's true.
	So you've got to sort and sift, and that's the price you pay.
	I mean, if I'm looking for a good absorber of neutrons, most isotopes won't qualify.
	Who cares?
	If I want something that fissions, most isotopes won't qualify.
	You find the ones that do.
	And use them.
	So, standard practice in science, in other words, to look for what's relevant.
	Police round up witnesses and you'll find a lot of people say, I didn't hear anything, I was listening to the television and so forth.
	Okay, that doesn't mean there's nobody who heard anything.
	It's like the basketball coach.
	Most people are not seven feet tall.
	I can absolutely guarantee you that.
	Well, then maybe you're qualified to answer the big ones for us, or at least to offer up something in response.
	And the big ones are... Who are they?
	Do you believe?
	Why are they here?
	What are their motivations?
	What do they want?
	Okay, now we've just killed the next three programs you're going to do.
	Well, we're going to squeeze it tight.
	Okay, real quick.
	Who are they?
	The only case I know about where is the hill case which gives us a star map which it's
	a long involved story but those beings apparently come from a planet around
	either zeta-1 or zeta-2 reticuli two constellations in the southern sky two
	stars in the southern sky constellation of reticulum they're fascinating
	they're the closest to each other pair of Sun-like stars and how far from us
	are they what How far from us are they?
	Light years?
	A mere 39 light years.
	39 light years.
	From each other, those two stars are only an eighth of a light year apart.
	That's 35 times closer than the sun is to the next star over.
	They got next door neighbors and, much more important, they're a cool billion years older than the sun.
	Hmm.
	You expect they know some things we don't know.
	I'm not saying everybody's from there.
	I say we have one case that points to them.
	Okay, what do they want?
	They tease us with appearances, they tease us with... They're doing their thing.
	They're not teasing us.
	They're doing their thing.
	Okay, what is their thing?
	I have a list of 26 reasons in one of my papers.
	They're graduate students doing their thesis work on the development of a primitive society.
	They're radio broadcasters with the weekly show, Idiocy and the Boondocks.
	They're mining the heavy metals.
	Earth is the densest planet in the solar system.
	Not the people, probably true too, but more heavy metals like iridium, and platinum, and rhodium, and tungsten, and gold, and uranium, which, rhenium, one of my favorites, which have very high density and very special properties, and you're going to find a lot of them around any place.
	So, you're saying Earth has minerals that make it worth their while?
	Well, yeah, but also, when I get down to the bottom of the list, I really say that I think they're here.
	At this particular time, because they want to quarantine us before they approach us.
	We're a primitive society whose major activity is obviously tribal warfare.
	We're very good at killing, not so good at feeding our starving kids, and, you know, dying of sicknesses that could be prevented, and what, 30,000 a day was the last number I've heard?
	It's a planet that killed 50 million of its own kind during World War II, destroyed 1,700 cities, So you think you believe they're here to quarantine us?
	To keep us from taking our brand of friendship, hostility, out there.
	Now, we do have reports of huge motherships between, let's say, 0.6 and 1.2 miles long.
	That's a big one.
	And you got a whole bunch of little Earth excursion modules, so they could be doing multiple-purpose trips, if you will.
	But, you see, unlike the city people, I think we're surrounded by civilizations.
	Well, one can point to the fact that we went to the moon and haven't done it in a long time.
	That our man program is stopped.
	That we're unlikely to go to Mars, no matter what we say.
	That someone back when essentially told us, stop that.
	And we did.
	Or something.
	That's a possibility and I have suggested that You know, stay the heck... Why weren't Apollo 18 and 19 launched?
	They were built.
	The astronauts were selected.
	I don't know.
	They had the hardware.
	They had everything they needed, as you point out, including the people.
	Why?
	Why?
	Good question.
	It was to save money, supposedly, but the money was already spent!
	You know, it doesn't cost any more to have the ships out there than any place else.
	Alright, so what do you say to those people who say, we were told, stop.
	I say, I don't have evidence for that.
	It's in my gray basket, but it's certainly a possibility.
	Hey, I don't get caught.
	People ask me, what was the composition of the materials recovered at Roswell?
	I say, the government doesn't send me classified reports about the information they have about flying saucers.
	I haven't had a clearance for a very long time, and I certainly didn't have a need to know for UFO stuff.
	And you certainly won't get one now.
	I think you're right!
	Um, again, you know, we're getting there, Stan.
	Do you expect in your life that some major breakthrough is going to occur?
	Some major knowledge announcement?
	Whatever.
	I'm optimistic.
	Maybe somebody who's listening to the show tonight has a piece of wreckage in his drawer
	And will talk to me at my toll-free number, which we'll give at the end of the hour
	Please recall that if you want to get a hold of me by email I am art bell at aol.com
	Or art bell at mind spring.com Once again, A-R-T-B-E-L-L, all together at AOL.com or MindSpring.com.
	Here is Stanton Friedman, and Stanton, just one question before we proceed toward the telephones.
	There have been a number of polls in America about UFOs and what people believe and think.
	Recently, there apparently was one in Australia.
	Can you tell us about that?
	Well, they asked like 700 people, you know, scientifically selected and all that sort of thing, and there was one surprising result.
	I'll quote.
	They asked them what?
	They asked them a lot of things, but do you think there are other forms of intelligent life in the universe?
	81% said yes.
	Of these, around 6 in 10 believe aliens are already monitoring what we do on Earth.
	Now, that's no surprise to me.
	The next thing was, it says older people, 50 to 59 years, are more likely than 18 to 29 year olds to believe we're being watched.
	And all we've seen in the past, the older the individual, the less likely to believe in UFOs.
	Why do you think that has shifted?
	I don't know.
	Maybe people believe, I've seen so much science fiction, then they think that this is all science fiction.
	I don't know.
	I'm not a psychologist.
	Isn't that intriguing though?
	Yeah, but it was a relatively small sample.
	We like to see a sample size of 2,000 rather than 700.
	Yes, well, we're America.
	Many more people.
	Well, yeah, but still, in terms of your statistics, they're not very accurate, you know, with smaller numbers.
	So I found that interesting.
	And look, there have been polls for 30 years showing that people in engineering and Scientific work.
	Two-thirds of them who expressed an opinion said they thought UFOs are real.
	Alright.
	A lot of people want to talk to you.
	Here we go.
	First time caller on your turn was Stanton Friedman.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Good evening, gentlemen.
	Hi.
	Mr. Friedman, my question is about the Chernobyl incident.
	I heard that there was a lot more uranium that could have melted down and there were UFOs sighted after the incident.
	I was wanting to know if you were wanting to hear from these individuals.
	I'll take your answer off the air.
	And here it comes.
	Chernobyl, and I heard a sort of a sigh of exasperation or something from you.
	Yeah, well, I think.
	Yeah, I know of no connection between Chernobyl and UFOs.
	Let me put it that way.
	No kidding.
	Actually, I thought it was just sort of the pro-nuclear Stanton going through what he thought was about to be an anti-nuke kind of call.
	I didn't know what to expect.
	So, I know of no connection.
	I don't know of any sightings.
	Look, you can find rumors about sightings over every Every event you can ever imagine.
	Maybe they are checking it out.
	I don't know.
	There were certainly sightings near nuclear installations in the United States.
	Yeah, I was about to say, as we exploded our first atomic bombs, there's every indication there was an incredible amount of interest.
	So regarding a big accident like that, well, hey, who knows?
	One can imagine.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Stanton Friedman.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Are you calling me?
	Yes.
	No.
	This is Carolyn from Phoenix.
	Yes, Carolyn.
	And I've had... I need to get my book out.
	The History of the Mysteries.
	Of course, it's weird.
	That's how it works.
	You're plugging your book?
	Well, no, but that needs to come out.
	And I've had UFOs following me all my life.
	Falling on you?
	Following you.
	You're one of many, many who actually say that, that UFOs follow them.
	It's quite common.
	It's protection.
	And, excuse me, there was a UFO over Phoenix the day my father was injured.
	I just had UFOs and then on October 6, 1985, After coming from the World Trade Centers in Japan and making a speech, I was up at the City Towers of Laguna Mountain, and what came down to meet me, and I know now that I have been getting information from what the fire department here calls the Mothership, the Holy City, Revelations 21.
	came down and crystallized.
	I was with someone.
	Those towers, the city towers, there are three big bubbles, as Stan probably knows, turned colors.
	And this bright cobalt blue light was bouncing around in the cloud.
	And as it came closer to the earth, It crystallized into the Holy City as John describes in Revelation 21.
	Alright, and that's where we're going to have to hold it.
	So, Stanton, I don't know what to do with stories like that.
	How do you validate anything?
	Well, I mean, you've got to deal with that.
	Hey, it's part of the landscape.
	It's part of the landscape.
	How big a part of the landscape?
	It varies.
	You know, it depends on how wide open the door is and who's approaching from all directions.
	At my lectures at colleges and stuff, I don't run into a lot of that.
	In other venues, sometimes.
	Look, I've got a very big gray basket, Art.
	You know, not black, not white.
	Yeah, you'd need a big one.
	Yeah, of course.
	And so that's the price you pay.
	Look, gold miners are happy to get half an ounce of gold for a ton of ore.
	But on the other hand, again, I pointed this out to somebody in the first hour, Stan.
	The Catholic Church marched over all kinds of environmental obstacles to get this observatory in Arizona that they want to look into the heavens for Obviously some very important reason that they wouldn't go to all that trouble to, you know, really push their way through to get it.
	But they got it.
	Well, the Catholic Church has been saying some interesting things about alien life.
	No kidding.
	That's right.
	They have.
	They're not ruling it out.
	They leave plenty of room.
	I heard Father Baldacci, Balducci at a conference.
	Just recently another thing came out.
	There's nothing that violates the spirit of Catholicism with the notion of aliens.
	Yeah, that has all the feeling of preparation.
	Yep, getting ready.
	You think so?
	I agree.
	Yeah, I do think so.
	The same thing happened when we first put, when the space age started.
	Suddenly all the churches were saying, well that doesn't interfere with our view of the universe.
	You know, they hadn't said a word about it before.
	Well, it may well depend upon what ultimately happens.
	In other words, perhaps the word they're expecting will be not what they're expecting.
	Yeah.
	You could say if these guys are really nasty, evil.
	And then you've got trouble.
	If they're devilish, but then why haven't they taken care of us already?
	You know, they've had 50 some years.
	Yes.
	Indeed.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Stanton Friedman.
	Hello.
	Yes, sir.
	Thanks for taking my call, Art.
	Very welcome.
	This is Glenn calling from the Rio Grande Valley.
	Yes.
	Stanton?
	Yes.
	Two questions.
	Talk about propaganda for years.
	I've been listening to the head of SETI and other scientists that tell us how we can't get there from here.
	Yep.
	And as an example, They use the Voyager spacecraft.
	Oh yes!
	And I was wondering, without developing anything new, could a bank of the continuous burn fission engine propel us to near relativistic speed?
	Well, fusion one certainly could.
	That was one of the silliest things on the Peter Jennings Show, Our fastest craft, the Voyager, would take 70,000 years to get to the next nearest star.
	That just burns me up.
	Well, you know, here's the crazy thing for those listening.
	It doesn't have a propulsion system on it.
	Right.
	I mean, it's coasting.
	Throw a bottle in the ocean and that tells you how fast the Queen Elizabeth goes.
	Put a feather in the air and that tells you about the space station?
	Yeah.
	I mean, this is utter nonsense!
	You lectured here in the Rio Grande Valley back in the 90s.
	I was just wondering if that was a pleasurable experience.
	Yes, it was, as a matter of fact, and I heard some very interesting stories.
	That's where I heard about the Cuban Meg case, where two planes went up and one came back.
	Yes.
	Yeah, a guy there who was present at the NSA listening post.
	uh... told me very quietly about it uh... after my lecture and uh...
	yeah i remember that all my trips are pleasurable people think you must get a
	hard time i don't i'm not a masochist i don't do this to get you know no eggs
	no tomatoes again circling back to something we mentioned earlier how
	likely do you think it is that you've been
	uh... positively guided uh...
	nobody's company big classified reports on my desk but i think
	the spaces been made the traffic has been used i think uh...
	Look, I've spoken on military bases, for goodness sakes, and was very well received.
	And so, there are a lot of open-minded people out there, more in industry and the military than in academia, I might say.
	Well, you know our military pretty well.
	If we began to get a rash of craft that we could not identify, but that we could get close enough to shoot at, is it your understanding that that's what we would now do?
	Well, I think we've stopped doing that.
	One guy told me, one of my cases was a radar operator up in Montana.
	I heard from Canada that there was a UFO heading their way.
	There was a fighter in the air already.
	They vectored him in.
	They watched the two targets on the screen, and our guy never came back.
	Never found wreckage.
	I know exactly where he was, how fast he was going, how high he was.
	But then the word went out, according to my informant, that take pictures, do not shoot.
	Sounds like a sensible solution to the problem, don't you think?
	Yes, I've often wondered, pondered how poor an idea it is to shoot at something that would be, I don't know, thousands of years ahead of you technologically.
	Just a bad idea.
	I think it's a bad idea too.
	And of course we were trying to get more wreckage, trying to get, you know, we were also very sensitive in 52.
	Many people may not realize how much concern we were about the Russians attacking us.
	We were busy in Korea.
	They had now airplanes to deliver the A-bombs that they'd been testing for a couple of years.
	There was a great deal of concern that Stalin would attack as soon as he had the capability.
	In the years since Roswell, Stanton, there have been a number of How can I class them?
	Large incidents that have occurred in South Africa, in South America.
	I'm sure you know the cases to which I refer.
	Nothing the size, perhaps, of Roswell.
	Some of them, though, in South America are coming pretty close in some of the stories.
	The Martina case is pretty exciting.
	That's right.
	How closely have you looked into that?
	I happened to be in Brazil when the first public discussion of that took place.
	And had the good fortune to talk to one of the investigators.
	I was with John Carpenter.
	We filmed him, actually, and John put out a video about it.
	And I was very impressed.
	And then Dr. Roger Lear has talked with some of the medical people on that one.
	That's right.
	And so I think, I'm totally convinced that that really happened.
	And as you know, Leonard Stringfield collected a whole bunch of cases, over 60.
	And Dr. Robert M. Wood looked at those and concluded that a significant number of those were probably genuine cases.
	Len was more a collector than an investigator, unfortunately.
	But still, look, the government has recovery teams.
	People forget this.
	If an airplane with classified systems on board crashes, we don't, you know, set up, here's a tour, folks, come and see the wrecked aircraft.
	We send people out to secure the area.
	and put out whatever kind of story we want to put out.
	They were up after that Cosmos 954 very quickly.
	They sure were.
	And so, you know, people get good at keeping secrets.
	Remember the black budget?
	There was just recent discussion.
	It was only 41 billion dollars this past year.
	I mean, only 41.
	Only 41, yeah.
	A lot of money.
	A lot of money.
	Yeah.
	It's easy.
	If you're willing to lie, you can cover things up very nicely.
	All right.
	Let's try one more.
	Wells to the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Stanton Friedman.
	Hello.
	Yes, thanks for taking my call.
	I can barely hear you, so you're going to have to yell at me.
	Okay.
	Thanks for taking my call.
	Sure.
	Yeah, a couple questions for Mr. Friedman.
	First of all, what do you think of Bob Lazar's story of physically testing an actual craft at Groom Lake?
	I did a lot of investigation on Bob.
	I found he wasn't telling the truth about himself, about his employment, about his background.
	He's not a scientist, has no degrees.
	Go to my website, www.stantonfriedman.com, and you'll find an article about Bob Lazar.
	All right.
	Stan, plug time.
	We're at the end of things here, and I want you to be able to get this out.
	I know you have a phone number, and I appreciate you're not repeating it until now.
	Sorry about that.
	That's all right.
	I'm four hours ahead of the West Coast, too, I should warn anybody.
	My toll-free number is 877-457-0232.
	877-457-0232.
	I want to hear from people who know about the time, sightings about the Hill case, West
	Virginia Flatwoods, the shoot-down the airplanes case, and Roswell, of course.
	My website is www.freedman.com.
	My email address is fs, as in flying saucer, physicist.
	And now, you're going to have to repeat that.
	Because you gave out that phone number, you're being interrupted.
	So the, uh, email again?
	F-S-P-H-Y-S, Flying Saucer Physicist, that stands for at Rogers, R-O-G-E-R-S dot com.
	Um, and of course, you offer your book.
	Uh, and you're willing to sign copies of your book.
	People, of course, love that.
	Yeah, I sign And there's $17 at Post Office Box 958 Holton, H-O-U-L-T-O-N, Maine, M-E-O-4-7-3-O-9-5-8.
	Alright, give it again quickly.
	a post office box nine five eight it'll you well to your land
	he that's main amy all four seven three oh dash all nine five
	eight uh... i'm curious
	Typically after a program like this, obviously your phone rings off the hook.
	That's right.
	What do you get?
	It used to be I'd get people asking questions about where do they send the check and stuff like that.
	Others telling me about their experiences like the woman who... people who may have bits and pieces of information that I would find useful.
	Occasionally I'll get a request to give a lecture.
	That's rare, but it does happen.
	Um, so you hope for all of that?
	That's what you want?
	Sure.
	Sure.
	And the book, I'd like to see people read the book so they'll know that the arguments against MJ-12 don't hold up to careful scrutiny.
	So a reporter like Bernstein or Woodward or whoever, you're looking for somebody like that, and if you had them, Stanton, could you say, Here it is.
	It's big enough to make it breaking news on all the networks.
	It's yours.
	Go.
	Yeah, I'd give them all the clues.
	In less than six months, they could blow the lid off the Cosmic Watergate.
	Okay, buddy.
	I want to thank you for being here.
	My pleasure.
	It's always a pleasure.
	Stanton Friedman, good night.

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