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June 12, 2005 - Art Bell
02:27:38
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Claude Swanson - Science and the Paranormal
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Beth Holloway Twitty said Arumen Authority should pressure the young men to reveal what they know about the disappearance of the 18-year-old.
Well, I would imagine that's going on.
I wonder what level of pressure she has in mind.
The military announced the killing of four more U.S.
soldiers on Sunday, pushing the death toll now past 1,700.
Police found the bullet-ripped bodies of 28 people, many thought to be Sunni Arabs, buried in shallow graves or just dumped on streets.
Vice President Dick Cheney, reacting to a growing chorus of calls to close the U.S.
prison at Guantanamo, where terrorism suspects are held, said, uh-uh, no plans to close it up.
Bomb blasts struck Iranian government buildings in the capital.
An oil-rich border province followed within hours by two other bombs in central Tehran.
So they've got some trouble over there.
Israeli researchers have apparently germinated a sapling date palm from seeds 2,000 years old.
Hoping its ancient DNA might reveal medicinal qualities to benefit future generations, one of the scientists leading the project said, said on Sunday, Sarah Salon of the Lewis Borick National Medicine Research Center in Jerusalem said she and her colleagues used seeds found in archaeological excavations in Masada, the desert mountain fortress where ancient Jewish rebels Now, Ramona tells me that only a female will continue the line, so hopefully they get themselves a female.
ever to be brought back to life now ramona tells me that only a female
will continue the line so hopefully uh... they get themselves a female we
will be right back and
well here in the desert uh... it is not really summer time yet strangely
We've had temperatures, for the most part, in the 80s, and by this time, my goodness, nearing mid-June, we ought to be, well, above 100, but we're not in Vienna!
It's nearly summertime, and the living is chilly across a lot of Europe.
Fresh snow fell yesterday on parts of Austria.
So much in some places that authorities closed roads to cars without tire chains.
And temperatures dip below freezing in corners of Croatia, England, and Scotland, fouling moods and spoiling picnics.
The unseasonably cold June has caused headaches even in Italy, a country that's normally balmy at this time of year.
Officials say cooler than usual temperatures and hailstorms have inflicted millions in damage on crops.
In agricultural areas near Verona in northeastern Italy, one of the hardest hit areas, between 30% and 40% of peaches and apples lost after hail pummeled trees.
Heavy rain, driven by strong winds, uprooted trees in Rome, left some cobblestone streets flooded yesterday.
Parts of Austria's Alps blanketed with nearly 16 inches of fresh snow in the country's Automobile Club said numerous tow trucks were called to aid stranded motorists.
So you don't get to hear about the weather elsewhere.
Except here.
Roads and airstrips across the Western Arctic are sagging, cracking, and washing away.
As climate change is slowly melting the permafrost that held them up.
And as engineers try to adapt transportation networks and buildings to warmer weather, some say the consequences of doing nothing are already very apparent.
Just a short drive out of Yellowknife.
This is in the Northwest Territories.
It literally looks like an earthquake zone.
According to Northwest Transportation Planner Jaylene Phillips, maintenance on The 700 meter section stopped after a new road was built in 99.
Now cracks in the asphalt can swallow a fist and the shoulders have washed away.
The surface parts of which have sunk more than a meter is more like a roller coaster now than a road.
It gives you a vision of the amount of maintenance that might be required.
Warmer temperatures threaten permafrost and permanently frozen subsoil water that is widespread across all three territories and the northern reaches of most provinces.
Global warming is a rather hot topic that shows very little signs of cooling down at all.
Earth's climate is changing.
But just how it's happening, and our own role in the process, somewhat less certain.
Here are a few facts.
There's little doubt the planet is warming over the last century.
The average temperature has climbed about 1 degree Fahrenheit all around the world.
The spring ice thaw in the northern hemisphere occurred 9 days earlier than it did 150 years ago, and the fall freeze now starts about 10 days later.
The 1990s was the warmest decade since the mid-1800s when record-keeping began.
The hottest years ever recorded?
keeping began. The hottest years ever recorded 1998, 2002, 2003, 2001, and 1997.
There is more warming at higher latitudes.
In other words, it's not even the worldwide average, just one degree Fahrenheit, but not up north.
Alaska, Western Canada, Eastern Russia, average temperatures there have increased as much as four to seven degrees Fahrenheit.
It doesn't seem like a lot.
But in areas where you have permanent freezing, And you're sitting sort of right on the edge of it's going to freeze or it's going to melt.
We're getting melting.
And then I look over to my left at my computer screen on CNN and I see the following headline under Science and Space.
White House official who edited global warming report resigns.
A former oil industry lobbyist.
An oil industry.
Now there's the right guy.
If you want somebody to write about what's really happening with the climate, who do you reach out to?
An oil industry executive.
Well anyway, so a former oil industry lobbyist who changed government reports on global warming has resigned in a long-planned departure, said the White House on Saturday.
So I wonder what he was doing?
I mean, the hail is coming down, destroying crops, and what's he doing?
Saying, well, actually, it's a warm, beautiful, sunny day out there.
What's the matter with you people?
Can't you see it?
Everything is fine.
That's it.
Go to the oil industry to have them write our climate reports.
Oh, my.
Um, listen.
June 10, 2005, January 2005, was a stormy month in space.
With very little warning, a giant spot materialized on the Sun and began promptly exploding.
Between January 15th and 19th, Sunspot 720 produced four very, very powerful solar flares.
When it exploded a fifth time on January 20th, onlookers were not surprised at all.
They should have been, though.
Researchers realize now that the January 20th blast was something special.
It has shaken the foundations of space weather theory and possibly changed the way astronauts are going to operate when they return to the moon.
Sunspot 720 unleashed a totally new kind of solar storm.
And minutes after the January 20th flare, a swarm of high-speed protons surrounded the Earth and the Moon.
30 minutes later, the most intense proton storm in decades, decades, was underway.
We experienced that nearly instantly on the hand bands.
I mean, everything just went berserk.
Solar physicist Robert Lynn of UC Berkeley says, we've been hit by strong proton storms previously, but never so quickly.
Proton storms normally develop hours or even days after a flare, but this one began in minutes.
Now, it just doesn't make sense.
How could those particles possibly have made it to Earth and the Moon that quickly?
It just can't be.
Only it was.
So the scientists now are scratching their heads because you see that means that our astronauts, for example, ones walking on the moon who thought they would have hours or even days of warning in order to get into a very sheltered area, now might only have minutes and they would have to run to get back into safety or be irradiated to death.
Interesting story.
Israel is now considering using a very unusual new weapon against Jewish settlers who might attempt to resist this summer's Gaza Strip evacuation.
A device that emits Penetrating bursts of sound that leaves targets feeling dizzy and nauseous.
Security forces might employ the weapon to overcome resistance without resorting to force.
Their paramount aim, but experts warn the effects of prolonged exposure are unknown.
The Army employed the new device, which it dubbed the Scream.
That's what they call it, the Scream.
At a recent violent demonstration by Palestinians and Jewish sympathizers against Israel's West Bank separation barrier.
Well, maybe they ought to call it the hurl.
Huh?
You just aim this at somebody and they hurl.
All right, we're going to be doing, in a moment, Open Lines, and it's going to be all yours until the top of the hour, when, by the way, we are due to be visited by Dr. Claude Swanson, a Princeton-educated physicist who's worked as a conventional applied physicist for more than 20 years and has conducted extensive research into the physics of the paranormal.
Now, most physicists would say There's no such thing.
The paranormal has nothing to do with reality.
It's not real.
There can't be physics involved in something that is not real.
Tonight, a physicist who says baloney.
On this, somebody writes, Art, I thought you might be interested in this story.
Personally, I think it could be huge, especially since it could quicken the race to AI, artificial intelligence.
Scientists to create a digital copy of the brain.
They're actually going to attempt to create a brain.
They expect it to phenomenally accelerate the pace of neuroscience research.
Some experiments, just to study one pathway, may take us three years to complete.
But this model, the new model, this new Equipment they have by IBM.
IBM is building a custom version of its Blue Genie supercomputer with 8000 processors, each of which will simulate the behavior of one To two neurons.
Human neurons.
The system will have a peak processing of 22.8 teraflops, making it one of the world's 10 most powerful computer systems.
So... Gee, I wonder... One of these days, they're going to invent something.
They're going to put together a computer that is so fast, with so much storage, that we are going to experience the first I don't know.
What would be the output of the first AI machine?
What am I?
Would it ask?
Who am I?
Why am I here?
Who are you?
What am I feeling?
I don't know.
What an eerie moment for humanity.
On the wildcard line, you're on the air.
Hi.
How you doing, R?
I'm very well, sir.
Look here, sir.
I really wanted to call you and just wish you a very happy birthday.
60 is very special.
Yes, I'm going to be 60 years old on June 17th.
It is now, I'm looking right down the barrel, I am now 59 and 99 1 hundredths.
On Friday, you're going to be very special.
Yes.
Look here, sir.
You've got a great show.
I've always loved your show, and you've always been a special place in my heart.
All right, my friend.
Thank you very much, and thank you for the birthday wish.
Yeah, that seems like a big one.
60 years of age.
My friend, Mac, up in...
Idaho sent me a prosthetic device as a birthday present.
It's a really cool cane.
It's a nice cane.
Maybe I'll use it.
It has a little horn on it.
And it also has a mirror.
I've got a cane with a little horn and a mirror so I can see behind me.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hi Art, this is Jerry out of Tempe.
Hello Jerry.
Lately you've been talking about these people drilling to the center of the earth.
Yes.
How come they don't use Mel's Hole?
Well, I don't know.
This is an attempt actually by the Japanese to drill into the mantle, which is the next layer down before the creamy nugget center.
Right.
Oh, here's my prosthetic device.
It's a cane with a little thing on it.
Anyway, I don't know.
Why don't they use Mel's Hole?
I have no idea.
The Japanese probably don't know about Mel's Hole.
Okay, now you have a guy from Oklahoma, White Cloud I guess, Indian, American native, and he said that that hole went 26 miles down.
Well, that's quite some way to be sure.
Again, I've always been fascinated by holes in the ground.
You know, the new deepest hole.
I would love to see somebody drill all the way to the very center of the Earth.
I wonder how far down they'll get before they reach the screams.
The screams of the damned.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hey, Art.
Hey, you're talking about the weather up in Europe?
Yes.
Last weekend, we were driving between Cheyenne and Laramie, up into the mountains on the west side of Laramie.
Yes.
Got stuck in a snowstorm that dumped two feet of snow in Laramie.
Were you aware of that?
I've been hearing not only of that, but even this night of snow in Colorado.
I'm telling you, boy, I'm telling you that the weather is turning upon us.
Yeah, it was quite amazing.
We were stuck in traffic for an hour and a half, trapped.
Between Cheyenne and Laramie, then slogged for five and a half hours up into the mountains to go to the cabin we normally go into in June.
It was quite amazing.
I thought we'd tell you about that one.
It was quite strange.
Well, we live in a strange time.
And again, the weather, I mean, quite obviously the weather is changing.
Every story, so many stories.
Here, Europe is changing as forecast, particularly quickly.
And I don't know that man can do all that much about it, to be honest with you.
I would like to be very green and say we could all change this by somehow driving a little less or driving and getting better mileage, but I think there's no turning it back.
The weather is going to change.
Man may or may not have any part of it or, you know, accelerating the process or whatever.
I have no idea.
But what we should be doing is preparing, and that means shifting the areas where we know stuff is going to grow, and beginning to abandon the areas where it won't grow so well anymore.
That would seem the logical approach, but you see, that would require from our government a little bit of planning on our behalf.
They're supposed to act to be protecting us, right?
To protect and serve.
Well, that's the police and I guess it's the government, too.
To protect and serve.
And part of that means looking ahead and seeing what might affect our welfare.
And if, frankly, one of those things happens to be the weather, then, by God, it's their job to look ahead and say, here's what's going to happen.
And here's what we better do so we can keep growing enough crops so we can feed the people that we govern.
Because that, you know, it's one of our basic jobs.
But what do we do instead?
Well, we give the job of watching the climate to some oil company executive who writes reports specifically writing reports changed reports that just don't exactly
reflect the reality and now as promised all of you
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hi.
Hello.
It's what I was calling you about.
This was on the news down here in Florida.
Florida.
What is your first name?
Paula.
Okay, Paula.
But anyway, they said that something's happened up in South Dakota.
They said a long time ago, a woman appeared to the tribes up there and said when she would return, a white buffalo would be born, which three weeks ago this happened, and all the tribes are heading to South Dakota.
Actually, I thought there was one some time ago, and then I believe that it turned color.
No, this one's just been born.
So there's another one that's been born, huh?
And they're all headed up there.
Yeah, and she said that the world was going to change.
And that sort of worried me.
I don't know if she means for the good or for the worse.
What do you think?
The first thing I had was for the bad.
Yeah, I think it might get worse before it gets better.
Yeah.
And I don't know if you heard about this, but there was something on C-SPAN.
I don't know if you saw it the other day, but I mean, everybody's alarmed.
They said they had a meeting up there with the committee about the Patriot Act and the Civil Liberties, and Amnesty was there, the Arab American Institute, and somebody else.
Anyway, they said because there is more reports coming out of abuses and deaths of these prisoners that we have all over the place, and they said the Arab countries are turning against us now.
They said they even turned against the countries we're trying to bring democracy to because they're going along with us, and because of what we've done, they said now we're in more danger.
Well, it may well be, but you know, so be it.
You know, I've been seeing these stories lately on some of the tactics we've been using on the prisoners at Gitmo and that kind of thing.
I guess too quickly, you know, we forget that they drove airplanes into our buildings.
They killed thousands of American citizens.
They drove an airplane into the Pentagon.
They did terrible things.
So, you know, if somebody's got something around their neck with naked women and they're forced to stand there or something like that, I don't know how much emotion I work up over that if I bear in mind what brought it all on.
So, I guess I'm getting a little tired of some of these stories with regard to the treatment that these poor terrorists are getting.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hi.
I'm calling from Fort Worth.
I'm listening on 570 KTL.
Yes, ma'am.
Anyway, I was just calling to... I was wondering if anyone else had seen this animal.
My mom was driving to work near Fort Worth, Texas, and there was this... It ran in front of her car.
It was a... She said it... She described it as a cross between a lizard and a chicken, but it stood on two feet.
And it was about three feet tall.
I'm trying to picture anything that would be a cross between a lizard and a chicken.
Yeah, she said it had like lizard legs, but it was really meaty looking like raw chicken.
Kind of, you know, the fleshy look.
Yeah, and it was shaped like a bowling pin.
The body and the head was the top of the pin.
Really?
Perhaps it was a chupacabra.
Yeah, I don't know what it was, and she was really reluctant to talk about that.
I live in a family where we're just really open about that kind of stuff.
Did it give your mother a hungry look?
No, she said it looked really scared.
Well, given the two, I'll take scared as opposed to the hungry look.
I don't know what that could have been.
I have no idea.
Without a photograph, your description is...
Unusual.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hello.
Hi.
Hi, this is Steve from Merritt Island, Florida.
Yes, sir.
Okay, I just want to tell you about a story that a friend and I, I guess I was about 20 years old, a couple years older than I was.
Summertime, we were sitting out in a county park.
It was like in a wooded area.
It was a football field.
And each end had like a seating.
So we were sitting on the benches.
And we're just hanging out, enjoying a summer day, and all of a sudden this woman comes out of the woods, and I'm not sure if she's carrying like a wooden box or a cardboard box or something like that, and she comes out in this center field around a 50-yard line.
And all of a sudden, we're both like kind of watching her, and all of a sudden she pulls out, it looks like an arm or something.
An arm.
And she starts dancing around and swinging this thing.
Then she pulls, puts that back in, she pulls out like a leg.
And she's doing the same thing.
We were sure it wasn't like a mannequin or anything, because I don't think it was like flexible like that.
It was like really crazy.
And my friend said, well, you want to go check her out?
Absolutely not, because I swear it was like a body this woman had cut up, and she was like swinging and dancing around.
And I don't know how long she did this for, but we just sat there and watched her.
And first of all, my friend said, You ain't going to believe what I'm saying.
Anybody consider calling 9-1-1?
I mean, when you're waving arms and legs around in the air, this usually means something.
Well, my friend said to me, he said, you ain't going to believe what I'm saying.
And I said, no, man, you ain't going to believe what I'm saying.
I repeat, sir, why didn't you call?
We watched her for about 10 minutes or something like that, and we left and called the police.
Okay, good.
It's always bad when you're in the middle of a football field and somebody's out on the 50-yard line waving around human parts.
This is a sign.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hi, Eric.
Hello.
This is Ken.
Yes, Ken.
I am like you.
I live way out in the boonies.
And ever since the most recent Phoenix Lights, I've been I'm desperately trying to get a hold of you.
I wanted to let you know that last August I was either privileged or damned to see actually a squadron of UFOs traverse the sky directly Above one of our satellites.
Are you in the Phoenix area?
Yeah, northeast of Phoenix.
Northeast of Phoenix.
Well, there sure is something going on down there, isn't there?
I believe so.
Yes.
Why all the interest in Phoenix?
What kind of attraction do you have for... I really have no idea, unless it's the electronics businesses here, or... You know, because we've only got one airbase anymore.
Well, I don't know what it is either, but clearly, I think they've taken it down now, but it was on the front page of the Coast2CoastAM.com site, and this last video was astounding.
To me, it was astounding.
Now, some have suggested it could have been some kind of nighttime, you know, group parachute jump or something, but it sure didn't look that way to me.
Not at all.
You're on the air, Coast2CoastAM with Art Bell.
Good morning.
Hello, Mr. Bill.
Hello.
Yeah, first of all, it's an honor to talk to you.
I've been listening to you since the Hilltop days.
Long time ago.
Oh, very long time ago.
I've been an avid listener, and I'm a little bit nervous, but I wanted to call you and tell you that I heard something very disturbing to me.
I'm calling from Canada.
I'm listening to you on CGOB.
Okay.
I was listening to one of our talk show hosts up here.
In the afternoon, and he had a guest on, and I'm just, I guess I'm calling you because I'm passing on this disturbing news that I heard.
Go ahead.
This person had written a book, and it was about, you might have heard about, we had tainted blood up here from the Red Cross up here in Canada, and people got sick from Hepatitis, and a lot of people died.
Indeed.
And they stopped counting.
Well, this person dropped a bombshell on my head anyway, that This blood actually came from prisons in Arkansas.
From prisoners in Arkansas.
And they couldn't sell the blood.
And I want you to know, I love the United States.
I have a great many friends there.
They couldn't sell the blood in the United States, because of the laws there.
So they had to sell it to other countries.
And this is the worst part of all.
The person who had his hands all over this, With Bill Clinton, I'm really sorry to say this.
If you want to check this out, I'd be happy to.
I'm certainly familiar to some degree with the, thank you very much, with the story of the tainted blood.
I do know something about that.
How much direct involvement the Clinton administration has, that would be, I don't know.
I think that probably is rather unlikely that at that level Decisions would have been made about blood.
It just doesn't exactly make sense.
I suppose ultimate responsibility in that sense.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Yeah, hi Art.
My name's Dennis.
I'm calling from Phoenix.
Yes.
You're wondering the attraction for Phoenix.
I am, yes.
Well, it's a thought.
It's called Phoenix because it was Phoenix rising from the ashes of an older civilization.
That's quite right.
The Indians were here.
The canal system we're presently using for irrigation was actually most of it was dug by them.
Uh, we've got a, uh, it's called Casa Grande.
Them?
Them?
Uh, the Hobocom, they were called.
I see.
And, uh, uh, centuries ago.
And, um, uh, there's actually an, uh, it's called Casa Grande, which is the big house, but it's an observatory, uh, uh, not too many miles south of the area here.
Uh, there's a place called UFO Triangle south of here.
Perhaps Phoenix will be first contact.
Could be.
I don't know.
It's just a thought suggestion.
How would you feel about that if your city was the first to be contacted by an alien race?
Well, I'm not surprised.
There's a whole bunch of things that kind of seem to be pointing towards Phoenix.
A certain amount of brain trust and so on.
It's such a growing place and it seems to be attracting a lot of A wide variety of things.
And if a craft were to land, and Little Green Man, or their equivalent, Gray, were to walk out, how do you think they'd be greeted by the Phoenicians?
I really don't know.
Well, that's an important question.
No, I know it is, and I really don't know.
People here are pretty cool, it's a little bit of everything.
Yeah, but they're mostly armed, right?
Well, that too.
I really don't know.
There's a wide variety of people here from all over the world, actually, and you might get just that many different responses.
Yes.
Well, I have long thought that perhaps the little guy wouldn't even make it to the bottom of the ramp before being filled with so much lead that he rolled the rest of the way.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Good evening, Art.
Mordecai calling.
Who?
Mordecai.
Mordecai, what a name.
Art, the collective is clamoring to hear more Spirit Comm.
Can you give us an update?
On what?
Spirit Comm, George Meek's work, stories of Dr. Mueller.
Yes, yes, yes, of course.
Well, not yet.
I'll pick my time.
I promised you that I would I just wanted to thank you for last night's show.
It was so interesting with Dale Brown.
there because a lot of it is very very difficult to hear bought if you spend the time and just a little bit of
effort listen carefully clearly a ongoing real-time contemporary discussion is
being had with somebody on the other side
we will get to the rest of that i promise wildcard line you're on the air
hello more in our item okay
uh... i just want to thank you for what i think show it was so interesting dale brown all wasn't that awesome
uh... which you could have gone on all night Yeah, it really was quite good.
He sounds like a great author.
I'm going out tomorrow and picking up some of his books.
Anything by Dale Brown.
Act of War is the latest.
Act of War?
Great book.
Alright Alex, thanks.
You're very welcome.
First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hello.
Hello.
Hi.
Did you ever see the Like Undisturbed channel?
They had reports of people that had invested a lot of money so they could make these, like, subs to go underwater.
And they went down to, like, an underwater volcano, and they had said that, for years, they said there was no life, and they got down there, and they found all this life.
You could actually see the volcano, but they found all these fish, and they were really beautiful.
And, unfortunately, they're trying to capture some of them.
I know that That's their nature, but I'm glad they couldn't get them.
Yeah, they're actually called black smokers, sir, and they're on the seabed, and they're kind of like these mounds that are virtual volcanoes, and they heat up the water adjacent to them.
Actually, they're extremely hot and would melt you in a New York second if you were near them.
But at certain distances, the water becomes quite tropical, even at extreme depths.
And there is life.
And so if life can, the scientists speculate, exist under those conditions, then life will be found, indeed, on other planets with similar volcanic action in the deep.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Yeah.
Art.
That would be me.
I gotta tell you, the aliens are not little green men.
Well, whatever.
It was just, you know, a color I picked.
It doesn't matter.
Whatever they are.
No, no, no.
I've seen them.
Ah.
One of them.
One of them.
And it was what color?
It was a maroon color.
It's a female.
Maroon.
Well, maroon's a good color.
It's scaly, but not like a fish.
More like a reptile.
More like a reptile.
A scaly, maroon-colored reptile, sort of.
There you have it.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hello?
Hi.
Art?
Yes.
Hi.
Happy birthday.
Oh, well, not yet.
Close.
I'm so glad you've come back to New York.
Uh, well, listen, my dear, W-A-B-C was with me all my childhood.
I grew up listening to Cousin Brucie.
I've only started listening to the radio about ten years.
I never listened to the radio.
Really?
And your show is out of this world.
Uh, truly.
In more ways than one, yes.
I heard a very strange story.
Do you remember when Qaddafi gave us his arms because he was giving up being a terrorist, I guess?
Well, he said that he was completely going to disavow anything nuclear and would allow the U.S.
in to inspect.
Yes, I recall.
Yes.
Well, I heard on the BBC, usually I check in about 20 minutes a night to see what they're going to do to us next.
And there were contracts to buy oil because he has very good oil.
So the United States and I guess all the oil companies went to try to buy from him.
And guess who got the first contract?
They got four contracts.
Who?
Occidental.
Occidental Petroleum?
Which is the Gore family and Annan?
Mm-hmm.
Isn't that strange?
Well, it's always this president that's the evil one, you know?
But very quietly, he was the first one to get four contracts.
I just thought that was interesting.
I wonder if he had anything to do with Gaddafi saying, I give up all my nuclear ambitions.
Oh, I don't think so.
All right, well, thank you very much.
Who knows?
West of the Rockies, you're on the air without a whole lot of time.
Hi, I just was wondering, actually I was in Arizona on June 5th at 10 o'clock in Avondale.
I was just wondering, did you get a lot of calls of people who actually seen the light?
No, actually we did not.
We really didn't.
Now, I may not have been on the air that evening, so I can't say for sure, but I certainly haven't had follow-up calls.
But you must admit, have you seen the video?
Yeah, I've seen the video and I'm just curious about something that bright that was filmed over there.
Oh, you're absolutely right.
I know, I hear you.
What do you make out of that?
I mean, when you see that, what do you think you're seeing?
Definitely something, I wouldn't say that it was parachuters or anything else.
It was definitely some type of vehicle or some sort, but I'm not sure.
I couldn't figure it out.
I have no idea.
Any idea why Phoenix seems to be the focal point for so much of what's going on right now?
I'm not sure.
We'll tell you one thing real quick.
I was flying out of there on the Wednesday, going back to California, and I seen the same type of light going across the sky underneath the plane.
I thought by Lake Havasu, but I didn't think anything of it at the time.
Princeton-educated physicist.
He has worked as a conventional applied physicist for more than 20 years and has conducted extensive research into the psychics of the paranormal.
This research has involved underwater archaeology in Bimini, scientific measurements in haunted houses, Experiments in remote viewing and psychokinesis and testing of new devices which can measure these strange forces.
He has also, as you might imagine, written a book.
The Synchronized Universe, New Science of the Paranormal, describing the scientific revolution he believes is underway right now.
And if I heard him correctly in our pre-show conversation about a minute, I believe he might be in a haunted house Tonight
First of all, dr. Swanson welcome to the program Thank you, Art.
It's great to be here.
It's great to have you.
I really cannot understand how somebody You know, MIT, Princeton, physicist, how you get from there to where you are now.
Which, by the way, did I hear you correctly?
Are you in a haunted house tonight?
I am in a ghost museum, which has several ghosts in it, reportedly.
Alright, so how do we get from the higher levels of American education to where you are now?
How does that happen?
I think it really just started from a quest for the truth, just wanting to know how things, how the universe really works, you know, and have the deepest, truthful understanding that I possibly could, which I always had a lot of curiosity when I was a kid, and that was what drew me into science in the first place, and to MIT and Princeton.
Somewhere in the mid-80s, I was working in the Washington, D.C.
area, and I met a couple of people.
I knew them pretty well, really.
And they mentioned remote viewing.
They mentioned some of the Pat Price experiments, where he would go into the basement of a shielded room at Stanford and, in his mind, could go out and examine secret Russian facilities and draw detailed sketches.
And I said, wait a minute.
This is impossible by our current science.
But what I was hearing was, I couldn't dismiss the information, so I knew that there was something that my education had overlooked.
Well, I would assume the first thing you did was verify that this really was being done.
Did you do that?
I did, yeah.
Once you have that first clue, and start looking at the literature. I found out where
there were published papers about this and books and the more you look the more you find and there's
just an enormous literature out there even in the 80s but unfortunately growing up in
this country we have taught that this stuff is all hoaxes.
It's all, you know, someone's making it up.
Don't believe it.
Especially in the sciences.
That's the prevailing culture.
I would certainly think so.
I mean, at Princeton or MIT, you know, eyebrows will be raised and people will chuckle and so forth.
Yeah, exactly.
So it was mind-blowing when I began looking.
And the deeper I researched it, the more support I found.
I think, for me, my deepest underlying drive was unified field theory.
I wanted to have a theory for how the universe works.
A theory of everything, I believe, right?
Exactly, right.
And you can't have a theory of everything if you're leaving out some things.
That's correct.
And so, once I realized that it was leaving out that, I said, well, what else is it leaving out?
What else have we been told is a hoax that's not a hoax?
what else is being left out. So I began a very intensive program in the mid-80s for
about 15 years just researching every literature on every aspect of the paranormal. And eventually
of course UFOs come into there too because it occurred to me one day that maybe somebody
has already figured out this stuff a long time ago and has engineering now.
Well I'm big on the search for truth as well, Dr.
So, in all these years, I mean, you obviously approached this whole subject as a scientist.
Right.
As a physicist.
And, you know, how convinced did you become that remote viewing and that other things that are claimed in the paranormal world, including the ability to move things or affect things, how convinced have you become it's real?
Well, eventually, very convinced, but I was skeptical to start with on everything.
I wanted to make sure that I had really good, solid data, so I would look in the papers first, of course, on who was doing the research.
But then I would try to meet the researchers and see what they were like, understand what their procedures were, go to conferences, hear people give talks, and eventually also experiment myself with some of these things.
This is, after all, consciousness.
So, we're all capable of these things to some extent.
So, I wanted to have some direct experience.
So, I took a remote viewing course, a psychic development course, and things like that.
No kidding.
Even fire-walking.
Just to see directly, hey, can I do this?
Well, could you?
Yes, to a degree.
Our education system really educates the left brain, and a lot of times, the psychic phenomena are are better uh... practiced with someone does not think
too much about what they're doing which is to relaxes
mhm goes into a library analytical mind so for example in fire walking was very nervous about
my firewall uh... i think it's not i think it was tony robinson was big
government power weekends and uh...
i was so scared that i was came two hours late to the meeting
what do you know the fire walking would be done by them I was kind of hoping that it would be too late to be able to do it.
But they probably said, well, Doctor, you're just in time!
The coals are hot as hell!
Look at that!
Exactly.
Could be our guest.
So, I've always been curious.
I've seen this done on television and in the movies, of course, but what is it really like when you actually put your foot down and step on these hot coals?
What do you feel?
What Tony Robbins does is go through some of his procedures to put you into a special state before you start walking.
They call it anchors, NLP, it's a whole procedure to kind of get you in a very high energy state where you're not thinking about the coals.
And one piece of advice is don't try to think about the coals or try to feel them.
And so I begin walking across and you have a little mantra, you say, cool moss, cool moss, as you walk across the coals.
And as you do this, and you're looking up, so, and what I was noticing is, hey, they don't feel hot.
This feels like cool moss.
It feels soft and comfortable.
So about two-thirds of the way across, my left brain kicks in, and it says, I wonder if they're really hot.
And so, so the last two steps, I dug my feet down into the coals.
Yes.
And I could see red embers flying up, and then I get off the, Could you at any moment smell your skin burning?
No, I didn't smell my skin burning, but my feet did feel funny on the bottom after the last two steps, and I got one small blister as a result.
I was one of about ten people out of a thousand that got a small blister.
So you were probably more left-brained than the majority.
Exactly.
For the very same reason, Doctor, I don't think that I could endeavor to do that.
I really do know that damn things are hot, and I'd scorch my feet.
I'd melt.
My flesh would peel off the bottom of my feet.
Well, Jack Houck, you know, has done studies with taping thermocouples and things to the bottom of people's feet.
during firewalks and he sees over a thousand degrees, sometimes over two thousand degrees.
Very, very hot temperatures are really down there.
Alright, well you're going to have to describe to me how a thousand or two thousand degrees
could not burn the flesh off the bottom of feet that walk over these coals. I just don't get it.
Well, I think the answer is that when we're in special state, there are some physics that go on
that our current science does not have. And that is part of what the paranormal is all about.
It's trying to include these new sets of physics, physical phenomena.
You had, I think, Bill Tiller on a week or two ago.
Oh, what a remarkable man.
Exactly.
Remarkable.
You heard that program.
I'm so glad.
I know him.
I've been to his lab.
Oh, I see.
He's one of the pioneers in demonstrating that the laws of our science really can be changed by conscious Did we just lose you?
No, I'm still here.
I don't know what that was.
By consciousness and by energy forces, basically.
I think that this is what is the frontier right now for people who are looking at this.
How can our scientific laws Well, how can they?
I still don't know.
I mean, I don't understand.
1,000 degrees, 2,000 degrees, that's what the temperature is.
It has to virtually cook human flesh.
Right.
And there are people who are untrained who have tried this who have been badly burned.
And there are adepts or people who are very talented We even can sort of lift up the coals, hold them in their hands, and just remarkable things like that.
Exactly.
How can that be?
I mean, what can you do with your consciousness that is changing the state of the matter that makes up your feet or your hands or whatever?
Well, clearly the laws of thermal conductivity are being altered.
It's like a barrier or a force field or energy field that's sort of being set up there to restrain the temperature flow.
By the mind?
I think so.
I think that the mind does it, but the subtle energy that Bill Taylor talks about is actually a whole set of forces that has been called prana, chi, the life force.
It's been seen and observed for hundreds of years and reported by different scientists when they see different aspects of this force.
And it really does alter the standard known laws of physics.
Well, when Professor Keller was on, he is just a wonderful individual, but he would launch into the mathematical explanation, which I'm very grateful for, but don't begin to understand, of the physics involved in what we're talking about right here.
Can you reduce it to something other than numbers, some way of our understanding how this can be done?
I will try.
We're just at the beginning of understanding this stuff, so we don't really have a well-developed theory yet.
So, I'll try to give, first of all, some of the ideas, the most important idea that Bill has presented that I think is really helpful.
He calls it, he involves the words gauge and things like that.
But basically, it's that when the subtle energy builds up to a certain level, the laws of electromagnetism start to become altered.
And magnetic monopoles become possible.
Right.
And so that the basic Maxwell's equations become modified.
That's part of it.
The other part of it is that when this happens, when this uh... charge of product you want to call it charges little
energy begins to build up
it couples in with the mind twenty form a thought in your mind
is actually sort of three-dimensional energy pattern in your mind
that you're kind of holding there and uh... clearly i think about
part of the period i've been developing is that that that pattern really is resonating with
the distant matter the universe
that that there's a uh...
is that is that the the source of the power for the energy field that is
created i i i think what i have to look at it
If I'm going to answer your question, I probably need to give you a little quickie.
You're going to go tiller on me?
No, I'm going to try not to do that.
No, that was a straight on question.
Is that energy that you just spoke about, the source of the energy, do you think, Let me, if I can give you about a paragraph answer, with no math, okay?
What I believe happens is that in our sort of normal physical universe, when the laws are acting the way they're supposed to by our science classes, We're in what Bill Tiller calls a U1 universe, but what he really means, what I think that means is that in my, well, it's almost as though there are, there's sort of the standard universe that exists here when consciousness is not playing a part.
Right.
And there the physical laws pretty much act the way the textbooks say they do, okay?
But in my model there are other parallel systems, parallel universes, Which are kind of very near ours, that have slightly different frequencies.
They're synchronized internally to their own beat, if you like.
Because it's not the same frequency as ours, just like a strobe light flashing on a fan, we don't see them.
The fan blades disappear if the flash is not synchronized with the fan.
While things in our universe, our sort of standard universe, things are synchronized.
So we see the book, we see the You know, the computer, etc., because those things that are in our universe are synchronized.
And so we say, that's real, that's matter.
There can be other parallel systems at slightly different frequencies that would be right here, coexisting with ours, but at different frequencies.
We would not see them.
They would be basically invisible to us.
And so as we sit in this sort of synchronized universe, we say, that's everything that there is, and our physics textbooks describe how that works.
But if we can start to alter our frequencies, to start to couple in these nearby parallel systems, we can start to get different physics.
And are you suggesting that the door that opens to this other dimension is achieved by some sort of state of consciousness?
Yes.
The state of consciousness begins to bring in the other frequencies, and that's also what subtle energy is, basically.
So it's a coupling.
and that allows things to happen that otherwise wouldn't happen.
Let me try this one out on you. I've had all these reports by email.
Obviously, many of my listeners have computers.
They sit in front of computer monitors that have a certain refresh
rate and you know they spend hours and hours and hours in front of computer
monitors and their brains begin to adjust to that
refresh rate in some way.
A different vibrational state.
60 Hz, 50 Hz, whatever it is the refresh rate happens to be.
And then I've had these reports after people spending long periods of time in front of computer screens suddenly seeing things That, frankly, are kind of paranormal.
Call them shadow people, little things that flit and move in ways as though, you know, sort of like they're half there and half not there.
I wonder if people are able to adjust themselves to a different state with something as simple as a computer screen.
It's possible.
I don't know the answer, because the frequencies that I'm talking about are probably much higher frequencies than that.
But it's possible that what happens is you get in a very relaxed state, where your brain opens it up to couple in to other universes.
Well, who knows?
You may begin to see harmonics of those frequencies.
In other words, maybe you're not seeing all the way through the doorway, in a sense.
Getting sort of a little bit of a view of it as a result of some harmonic of that frequency or something, but readjusting the rate seems to have an effect.
That makes sense.
That's possible.
For example, flashing lights will occasionally send people into epileptic fits, right?
Right, exactly.
And that sort of thing.
I'm just wondering if that is some way of subtly altering the frequencies you're able
to observe.
Yeah, it's certainly possible.
Yeah, I have friends who also have seen, on the computer, they will sometimes, and these
are people who are psychically more open anyway, so they have, but I have one friend who is
very gifted and occasionally he's seen these etheric snakes swimming through the air.
Exactly.
Things like that.
No, no, no.
Exactly.
That's exactly right.
Right.
And it's only this sort of modern day and age, this computer age, where we're beginning to notice these things.
Yeah.
What he said at the beginning of the program was he wanted to know the truth.
Well, so do I. About all of these things that we talk about.
All of these things that don't quite fit into any particular box, you know, they just sort of, they're mysteries.
And I want to know more than anything else, which has been driving me to do shows on this kind of thing for years and years and years, more and more of it seems to be moving into the area of consciousness studies.
In other words, human intent, that sort of thing.
But I do want to know the truth.
and this is uh... yet another high-powered scientist who claims that
the truth lies in areas that we've suspected for some time doctor uh... swanson you
uh... began your book uh... with a quote about the hope the prophecy and
uh... i wonder how you thought it was relevant We'll see you next time.
Well, the Hopi prophecy, the one that is well known, has many prophecies about our present time that we're living in now in terms of predictions that have come true, but there's a timeline there.
A timeline for the evolution of the Hopi people and also of the white man, the Western man In America, and there's two horizontal timelines.
There are several events that are noted on that timeline that are supposed to be by the Hopi interpretation, World War I, World War II, and the present day.
And there are also two vertical lines that are opportunities to connect the wisdom of the Hopi with the Western culture.
They depict the Western man as being someone with his head and his body separated, which to them means that we're not really in tune with our spiritual wisdom.
We're not listening to that side of our wisdom.
And their prophecy predicts, as World War I, World War II, there was a time just before that, there was an opportunity to make a connection with the Hopi wisdom and sort of bring in some of that spiritual understanding into Western culture.
And we did not take advantage of that.
In the present day, at the millennium here, there's also an opportunity to do that.
If we don't do that according to their prophecy, there's a time of great destruction ahead of us.
And how immediately ahead of us, Doctor?
Well, I don't think they give it in exact years, but I would think ten years probably.
I mean, it's not very long.
That kind of actually goes... I interviewed a number of Hopi elders.
It actually was quite a program.
It required translation on the air.
And some of what they had to say was quite frightening.
I mean, really quite frightening.
When they talk about destruction, they're talking about the whole world.
Yeah.
And, you know, I think that we have this amazing technological power we have developed here in the West, but if we don't have some kind of spiritual wisdom or a larger worldview, to direct how we use that power, to use it wisely, then we
will misuse it and it becomes a weapon that we use upon ourselves.
Well, as you look around you at the world right now and observe the news and the behavior
of human beings worldwide, are you hopeful or somewhat concerned?
I am somewhat concerned.
I've noticed there are reports of the increased rate of Antarctic ice sheet melting.
You've noticed that?
Yes.
That's good.
I keep trying to get people to notice that.
And there are supposedly a couple of reports from the Pentagon and also the British government that predict that that may come to catastrophic levels within a very few years.
The ocean currents, like the Gulf Stream, are also apparently slowing down, and there's a risk of that stopping.
I see you've noticed that, too.
I have noticed that, too.
You know, I'll tell you what I noticed.
Somebody sent me a link earlier tonight, and it was something about somebody in the administration resigning.
It was actually an oil executive of some sort who had been modifying climate reports sent
to the president.
Yes, I saw that.
Oh, did you really?
I did, yeah.
And, you know, the first thing I wondered was, why would you get an oil company executive
to write the truth about what's going on with the climate in the first place?
But that issue aside, the fact that he was leaving for having modified them, meaning the president is given information that provides him with plausible deniability.
Well, my impression is he was not leaving because he'd modified them.
He was leaving because someone had found out that he was modifying them and made it public.
Well, either way, the problem is still incredible.
Yeah, oh, I know.
It's incredible.
Yes, and if you look at the North and South Pole and you look at pictures ten years ago and pictures today and you don't go, oh my God, then you're blind.
Exactly.
So, in Alaska, we have the tundra melting.
We have very bizarre weather going on in Europe.
Getting very cold, as predicted.
Very violent all across America.
Our hurricane season is getting a nice early start.
Clearly, the weather is changing.
Yeah, and there are all kinds of reports of technologies available that could be exploited that would allow us to cut down enormously on the use of oil.
And those technologies are not being followed, they're not being developed.
They're probably being suppressed, in fact.
And it may be too late to implement something like that, but no one's trying.
They're pretending that nothing is wrong.
I know.
It's amazing, isn't it?
And I wonder, I guess they will continue to do so until there is some sort of catastrophic event that will no longer let them ignore it.
Yeah, yeah.
And I wonder how far we are from that.
So the Hopi would seem to indicate that within the next decade or so, or your belief is that it's within the next decade or so, something rather major is going to occur.
I think so, yeah.
And to me, what the science of the paranormal is allowing us to do is introduce some of the spiritual wisdom into Western culture.
I mean, obviously you can come from different directions at this problem, but to a very large degree, Western culture is a scientific culture.
We kind of worship science.
Science tells us answers to our questions, like how old the universe is, and how man came to be, and things like that.
So, one way of addressing this issue of spirituality is to point out that Western science is missing some really important things, and if we start to introduce The truth has come from studying paranormal phenomena.
It will modify science, and it will help us to understand that the spirit, and the soul, and the power of consciousness, and the power of love, and all these things that are kind of mushy that we Westerners don't like to think about very much, but they're real.
I know we roll our eyes a lot on this sort of thing.
Let me ask you a couple of things.
Do you firmly believe In this expanding new field of consciousness, do you believe, for example, that we can affect plants and animals and even human behavior with directed willpower?
Directing something to happen.
That one mind or many minds can do that.
Right.
My book, The Synchronized Universe, most of the book is about the evidence.
For exactly that.
There's about 12 chapters, each of which goes into a specific phenomenon.
The first one's remote viewing, then one on ESP, one on PK.
The fourth one is the Baxter Effect, which is about plant communication and cell-to-cell communication.
And absolutely, you know, when Cleve Baxter hooked his first plant up to a lie detector, a polygraph, and he gave it a drink of water and he was watching how the trace was behaving.
And then he thought, What would happen if I burned one of its leaves?
And the moment he formed that thought in his mind, the trace went crazy.
Yes.
The plant was psychic.
The plant knew exactly that it was in danger.
And that began, you know, 20 or 30 years of research by many people that show that, yes, plants are psychic.
Dogs and cats, animals are psychic.
And even cells, individual cells, people have taken cells from the saliva of the mouth and put it in a test tube and measured the voltage on it and you go 10, 20, even 100 miles away and when you have a strong emotional experience the cells back in the test tube give off a voltage pulse.
That is absolutely correct and impossible.
Exactly.
Absolutely impossible but correct.
And so there is communication taking place.
Now that's a crude word, I know.
What's so strange about this form of communication is that it penetrates all barriers, all types of shielding.
It does not weaken with distance.
It can travel.
I'm going to read a quick little quote here from Robert John, who's a former head of the engineering department at Princeton, runs the Pair Lab along with Brenda Dunn at Princeton, that has been one of the pioneering labs in doing research in this area.
His conclusion is, all forces known to physics, like gravity for example, It's a big revolution, isn't it?
and no forces in physics operate freely across time like this, meaning the paranormal.
It's as if consciousness is somehow able to direct its influence directly across space
and time.
That's right.
An understanding that certainly poses a challenge for science.
So this is the revolution that we're faced with now.
It's a big revolution, isn't it?
I mean, just absolutely gigantic.
And I did these experiments with the weather systems.
I'm sure you've heard about that.
Others have done many other experiments.
All of them really do seem to prove that this whole phenomena is real.
And here's something, some bottom line thing that I wonder, Doctor.
If the Earth is facing some sort of catastrophic future, Not that I think we can do it, but if we could get most of the population of the world aware of this power and this ability, and if the world made a determined effort to avoid an otherwise inevitable catastrophe, whether a world's conscious effort could stop it?
I believe it could.
I believe it could.
I think that is Part of the opportunity of this new science, that we're learning the power of the mind, one of my chapters is about collective consciousness, and of course I'm sure you're aware of these experiments where many people are thinking about the same thing at the same time, and when they do, these random event generators that kind of respond to psychic powers, and they measure the quantum noise at different places around the world, and every one of them is affected.
And the quantum noise is reduced, and so when many people begin focusing their minds on the same thought, it affects the physics.
It actually changes the physics away from the standard physics in a way we don't really fully understand, but it's a definite effect that occurs there.
And one of the things that Bill Tiller is talking about that's important is that as we continue to do that, we can actually charge the Earth up with, if you like, subtle energy, prana, and that actually then increases the coupling So the more we do it, the more effect we have, and the more power, the more control we have to change things, so that there's a real phenomenon here.
Well, you mentioned in tune with the Earth, and that would seem to be in tune with what Native Americans think, and the way they look at our relationship to the Earth.
Could it be that the Native Americans have it a little bit closer than we do?
I think that might be accurate.
I think we really need to learn.
I think that's exactly what the Hopi prophecy is about.
That there are some lessons here that we need to learn from them.
This is where it comes in.
I know there are times that even our own government has consulted with Native Americans.
What did you do?
Did you spend time with the Hopi?
Not to get the information that's in the book here.
I have been to the Hopi Reservation.
I've been to Old Oraibi Village, which is probably the oldest and most traditional of the villages.
For me, I came at this like most average Americans, and I really have to say I felt very embarrassed.
I felt my process of education I probably started off when I was a kid watching those old westerns with the cowboys and the Indians.
I had the same prejudice as the average American did.
I met some real Native Americans at a couple of big meetings up in South Dakota and Wyoming, a couple of their big conferences.
I was just blown away by the level of integrity, the level of centeredness and spirituality that they have.
And I felt very guilty for what we have done.
It was kind of late in coming.
But I do think that it is time that we start trying to learn what they had to teach us.
were you surprised you didn't have to go into a tb uh... i look i'm with you all the way
I just I I think that well first of all Let's go back to dr. Tiller for a moment right his
experiments are Incredibly important, and I told him so when we did the
program In terms of trying to move all of this from where it is into the hardcore scientific literature, it seems to me what Professor Tiller is doing is terribly important, and we need to get it into science or whatever.
Nature, I don't know, some sort of publication that needs to get into mainstream science, right?
Do you see any way to get that done?
Well, I think it's difficult.
It's tricky, as you well know.
One of the things I talk about in my book is just this whole problem that the mainstream science has a filter.
They don't allow things in that violate their paradigm.
So it's hard for mainstream scientists to even find out that this stuff exists.
Well, the appeal I was making to Dr. Tiller is the same one I'll make to you, and that is, I could understand if we were submitting, I don't know, the sort of foggy evidence or something, but it seems to me that Dr. Tiller's controlled experiments demand attention from the regular scientific community.
I mean, when something is repeatable, I agree.
I agree.
The first step, which he's already pursuing, and other people are too, you know, there are two or three organizations that act as kind of intermediaries, that kind of work at the boundaries.
The Society for Scientific Exploration is one, and one is called iSEEM, which is the International Society for the Study of Subtle Energy Medicine and that's actually the meetings
occurring about a week and a half in Colorado here He'll he'll be speaking. I'll be speaking Gary Schwartz
will be speaking So those are kind of places where they're professional
societies, but they're more open-minded and it's kind of a foot in the door
Understood so there is something going on well. I mean that's kind of exciting getting
You gentlemen together and speaking is a good beginning, right?
Right, right.
And there are journals and so other scientists that are prompted can look in those journals and see what is going on.
But there is a translation problem there and there's a belief problem.
And breaking through that barrier is tricky.
I'm not sure how to do it quickly unless there's some experiment or something very dramatic that calls attention to it.
One of the things that I have noticed from, I've just read almost everything that I could lay my hands on for the last 150 years on different subjects that relate to this stuff, you know, and what Bill Tiller is discovering is very closely connected with what Wilhelm Reich discovered, the orgone.
People have different names for this stuff, the subtle energy, but it has very similar behavior.
The type of coupling that Bill Tiller discovers in his laboratories It's kind of similar to what Reich found, not as quantified, but in terms of how it builds up, how it kind of takes over the whole laboratory.
It begins changing the physics in the vicinity.
Right.
And this same subject has been studied by von Reichenbach, who was a German chemist
back in the 1850s, who had sensitives looking at some of these things with their eyes after
having a couple of hours of dark adaptation.
And they could see the light coming from the subtle energy and describes how it flows.
And this is really valuable treasure troves of information from some of these sources.
Another one was the famous water wizard, Viktor Schauberger.
Okay, Dr. Swanson, welcome back.
I'm very interested in what things you observed or were actually part of yourself.
You mentioned remote viewing, and how conclusive it was to you.
Well, remote viewing, even the very first... Well, first of all, I took about three courses at Farsight in Atlanta with Courtney Brown, and even in my And I think one reason I was attracted to doing remote viewing in this way is that I don't feel that I am very psychic.
I feel like I'm an average person.
My left brain is interfering way too much.
But remote viewing seemed like there's a protocol there that keeps your left brain busy and hopefully would just be able to keep it so busy that it would not interfere at all and you'd have the best chance to have a psychic experience.
So that's why I did it.
And even in the first viewing, I was coming up with things that were definitely on target, and that was surprising to me.
Like what?
I actually would like a specific example.
Well, okay, here's what, as I'm sure you know, but I'll just briefly review it.
The basic idea with remote viewing is you start out very general and vague.
When you first, the target is something that's secret.
It's in an envelope somewhere else.
There's some numbers that associate that are on the outside of the envelope, and that's Call out to the viewers.
They have no idea what the target is.
And then you start out with a quick little movement of your hand on the paper.
The pen on the paper makes a little mark.
It's called an ideogram.
It's a very subconscious, instinctive mark that hopefully is coupling your subconscious to the target in some way.
And then you feel along that, and you try to come up with Other impressions, and it's almost like word associations.
Very general.
Whatever pops into your head, put it down.
But the target is not general.
The target is a specific thing.
Very specific.
And put inside an envelope with a number on it.
The number somehow couples that information to your consciousness, or psyche, or whatever, and you start trying to duplicate Exactly, exactly.
So you try to be very aware of whatever feels like imagination.
It's very vague for most of us who aren't trained, but we try to grab on those vague ideas and put them down.
Then the next step is there's a categorization by what smells, what scents, what colors, etc.
The third part of it is, now draw a sketch.
And in the sketch, again, you're drawing blind.
Whatever seems to come onto the paper.
Alright.
I will just usually try to just make little dots and see what the dots form into.
In my case, the dots formed into two or three large mountains in the background and a dark locomotive train moving from left to right at high speed with a Trail of black smoke coming out of the chimney of the train.
All right, well that's very specific.
Very specific.
That was my conclusion, and the target was a mountain range in the background, and these two black jets moving from left to right at high speed with their exhaust coming out the back.
No kidding.
I've got to give you credit for actually going out and experiencing this.
I've had a lot of scientists on the show, Doctor, and I talked to them about remote viewing, and they kind of go, You know, or just absolutely just dismiss it.
But at least in your case, you had the colonies to get out there and find out if it was true or not.
At that point when you saw that, were you shocked at what you had done?
Yes, there's a kind of a stunned feeling.
You're kind of becoming aware of some other part of your sensory apparatus that normally is dormant for most of us.
Yes.
There's a realization that, hey, this stuff works, you know?
And I was far from perfect.
I mean, probably half of my sessions, my conscious mind would interfere too much.
I would have to analyze.
The first little clue would send me off on some tangent of trying to analyze.
Once you do that, you're lost.
But, you know, in 20 or 30 or 40 percent, I mean, I would be able to, well, first of all, even in the bad ones, I could see afterwards what I was picking up and how I was misinterpreting it.
But in the good ones, you feel like you're there.
Yes.
And one of them that I describe in the book is the destruction of Pompeii.
And what I saw, what I drew in my sketches, I saw a Roman-style house.
I sketched that as my first sketch.
My final sketch were Roman soldiers frantically constructing a barricade.
In the distance was a mountain, dark smoke, and a light.
And they were afraid of something that was approaching them, and they were trying to protect themselves from it.
That's absolutely incredible.
I mean, the odds of your hitting that are... Actually, they could be worked out.
I think, mathematically, they really could be worked out.
Anyway, it's impossible.
Yeah.
You know, the Princeton Paralab folks have done studies on remote viewing, and they find, you know, their data is like 5 billion to 1 odds against chance.
I mean, this stuff is real.
It really does happen.
That must be quite an epiphany, when you go from a scientific, straight-on view, and then you actually experience something as you did, giving you credit for that.
What an incredible epiphany it must be for you.
I mean, Julie, you go, everything I've learned all these years at MIT and Princeton, and nary a word about anything like this.
That must hit you awfully hard.
Well, you know, I have to say I was prepared for it because everything that I've done has been sort of a mixture of a lot of research in the books and the literature and then trying to get the experience to kind of balance it out.
So intellectually I was prepared at that point.
I already knew the paradigm was badly broken by that point.
Badly broken, huh?
But it was nice to have the experience.
It's nice to know that everyone can do this.
It's not just a few.
Even, and actually I would think as a A scientist, what kind of mind do you have?
You'd be the very worst kind of person to try to remote view.
I'd be lousy at it too, I just know.
Yep, exactly.
That training of analyzing just really gets in the way.
Alright, how much of the rest of the paranormal, I mean there's so much, there's ghosts, I mean you're sitting in a Supposedly a haunted house right now.
I could solicit endless ghost stories, Doctor, and my audience would tell and tell and tell and tell.
It goes on all over the place.
What have you figured out about that?
Do you think that a life is a force that continues after physical death?
Consciousness?
Consciousness, yeah, absolutely.
First of all, let me say that in the book, as I mentioned, there are 12 chapters.
Each of them is like the best evidence for these different phenomena.
And what I think that for some, what I'm hoping, you know, is that maybe for scientists, if they could be exposed to this evidence, there's like 400 references, 140 diagrams and things, and if people understood how much is out there, how much evidence is out there, It would wake them up.
Well, if I were to ask you in your chapter on ghosts, for example, what is the best of the best?
What's the best evidence you ran into that life continues?
Well, coming up, preparing for Y2K, we listened to your show and a lot of us were very concerned, and so a bunch of my friends and I bought a farm.
West Virginia, so we could get away from the D.C.
area.
But my friends, because a lot of them have UFO experiences, and they're sensitive to these things, the farm they bought was the most haunted farm anyone has ever seen.
It was built on Indian burial ground.
There were three Indian graves that were discovered there.
Really?
A 200-year-old house.
There were at least five entities that were there.
I'm not all that sensitive, but there were a couple of places where you turn icy cold you could feel these things
and i've never seen a ghost but feel
the cold from them
article outside the house at night and take flash photographs
you get some strange things what happens is that orbs are real and i was slow in believing that i'm slow in
believing it i i'm not so sure about orbs i mean
I don't know what it could be.
I've seen outside pictures taken with flash, and you get these orbs.
Now, I don't know.
I'm on the edge with this one.
What do you think these orbs are?
Well, my friends were getting pictures of orbs for about a year before I began to believe it, because I figured, well, gee, it could be moisture, it could be bugs, all kinds of things.
One of my friends who was very down-to-earth, very, very grounded had flashed his camera and but it looked not to the viewfinder but just with his
eyes above the camera out
at the scene yes this is binocular vision working for him yes you can tell how far away this thing was and so you're
telling me your friend didn't watch the camera didn't watch the view took the
picture and and watched outside naturally saw with his own eyes what
turned up on the photograph
he saw the orb as a three-dimensional spherical object Oh!
About six or eight feet away from him.
Oh!
That's an interesting observation.
I've never done that myself.
Since then I have.
I've been to a graveyard with these good powerful flashes.
These are hand-held strobes that aren't necessarily attached to cameras or maybe they can be attached but you can operate independently.
Yes.
And I have flashed this thing in a graveyard and You will see, every so often, you'll see an orb that will show up just in that instant while the light is flashing.
And the next time you flash it, it may be somewhere else, but it's remarkable.
That is remarkable, and I'm going to try it.
Now, in one of these expeditions, a bunch of us were trying to get some good orb photographs, and we had all kinds of strobe cameras and everything else, and we were able to see them like this, but Not very good pictures, but about three days later, one of the people in the group, when the pictures came back, there was this extraordinary daytime photograph of a three-foot diameter orb in the picture.
And she didn't know where this had come from.
Her 12-year-old daughter was walking back to the cabin late afternoon and saw this thing hovering in front of the cabin.
And she said, I thought it wanted me to take its picture.
So she did, and then it moved away, and then she forgot about this incident until three days later when the pictures came back.
It's an amazing picture because the orb is semi-transparent.
You can see the pillars of the cabin through the orb.
It is reflecting the sky above, the ground below.
You know, it's an amazing picture that just is pretty darn convincing.
Let me tell you how common they are.
Had to ask our audience to stop sending in more pictures.
I'm serious.
Because they're so common.
They're virtually everywhere.
We just got too many of them.
It was like...
And I still don't know about orbs.
I'm not convinced, but what you have just told me, I guarantee you I'm going to experiment with and see if I can see one.
And so everybody else give that a try too.
You're suggesting flashing an external flash as powerful as possible.
Yes.
And not looking through the camera, but instead looking at what that flash actually lights up.
Right.
Now, what is your theory if you have one?
About why flashes are illuminating what some people think are souls.
Energy.
Do you believe that to be true of orbs?
I do.
I think there's a variety of different kinds of experiences.
Like in out-of-body experiences, for example.
Keith Harari was doing an out-of-body experiment trying to visit his doctor's office.
While he was doing it, his doctor, who did not know this was happening, just happened to see this small little reddish orb flitting around in the office.
Really?
There's an experiment that I mentioned on the website and in the book, very important one, that Carlos Osis, a scientist, conducted, where somebody was trying to remote view a target, and Osis put around the target various kinds of sensors, and he discovered that when the remote viewer was reviewing the target, the sensors were being set off.
There was some kind of energy form that was a few inches to a half a foot or so in diameter that was apparently present near the target while a remote viewing was occurring.
Do you know offhand what the sensors were measuring?
Well, one was a very sensitive strain gauge.
One was an optical sensor.
Did you say a strain gauge?
Yeah, it was supporting a couple of thin aluminum plates by strain gauges.
Oh, okay.
So pressure... Right.
Okay.
So, probably, electromagnetic and acoustic, probably there's a variety of different types of sensors that are all excited to some extent when these orbs are present.
And if you think about what ghost hunters use when they're hunting in houses, it's often the same type of thing.
I know a ghost hunter in Leesburg, Virginia, who has just been to hundreds of houses there.
It's a very haunted, old, historic town.
And we asked him about photographing ghosts.
Yes.
And he was very skeptical.
Oh no, you never can photograph a ghost.
They never show up.
All I get are these darn little balls of light flying around.
And he has lots of good old photographs.
little balls of light. Well, how much do you think you know about the nature of these orbs?
I mean, you're saying you believe them to be souls.
Well, I don't really claim to have the final answer, and also I don't think we really quite know what a soul is anyway.
We have some general idea that it is the consciousness of the person, or some part of the identity, an energy form of some kind that continues When the body dies and it probably also is part of what goes out of body during out-of-body experiences or some types of remote viewing experiences.
Could some of these orbs be people on OBEs?
I think so.
That's exactly what I think, yeah.
I knew a Brazilian UFO investigator and he calls them Kineplas and they were quite familiar with them down in Brazil and they view them kind of like Kineplas means a camera lens.
So it's somebody remote viewing them basically.
Isn't that fascinating?
Absolutely fascinating.
What are the odds, if you were to spend, I don't know, a few hours experimenting with this, that you wouldn't be disappointed that you would get to visually see an orb, actually see one?
I don't know.
I mean, if you go to a rich area where there's lots of hauntings, I think there are pretty good odds.
Well, I wonder how you'd react to this.
with that haunt farmhouse and this uh... cemetery we did not spend more than an
hour to
it or well i wonder how you'd react to this on a interview a
couple of uh...
wonderful people up in utah every few weeks
about the vp They're EVP researchers.
And in the very same places you're talking about that are rich with orbs, they carry recorders of various sorts.
And, Doctor, they record voices.
Yep.
I mean, are these orbs, I wonder if these orbs are the same source of the recordings
as they are of the visual sightings that you're talking about.
I think it must be.
I know people who belong to a little ghost hunting group up in Denver and they go out to Cemeteries, and some of the people in the group are quite gifted at kind of attracting the ghosts.
That's right.
There are two-way conversations they have sometimes.
They'll ask them about how they died and things like that.
They'll get answers.
Let's jump one more.
Have you heard of the work of George Meeks?
Yes.
He was a pioneer of EVP.
No kidding.
I played a 40-minute segment Of some of the damnedest stuff you've ever heard.
Did you happen to catch that?
No, I didn't.
No.
It was a portion of his work which included a two-way conversation with somebody on the other side who was actually making suggestions about how to improve the circuitry so that his voice might be better heard.
Making actual electronic circuitry modification suggestions.
I need to hear this.
That's wonderful.
No, I haven't.
It's remarkable stuff.
It's contemporary.
It's real-time.
It's, you know, change resistor and capacitor so-and-so to improve the ability for me to get through that kind of stuff.
I'll tell you what.
Something new, for example, this thing on Orbs, which I've always had kind of in my gray box, if you will.
Gray box is a good way to put it.
Just steal that from my friend up north.
It really has always been in a gray box, but how exciting is it?
The concept of using a flash, but not as you would use it with a camera, but instead looking Just out at the Flash itself and looking for the orb to get an actual visual sighting of what we capture on film but don't believe.
That's kind of exciting.
I wonder how many of you will give that a try.
I wonder what other really good evidence there is, Doctor, the best of the best as it were.
You just gave us a really good one.
Well, I can tell you a couple examples in terms of healing.
There's been a lot of research done in the past 15 years on energy healers of various types, both remote and nearby.
One healer I know is named Michael Bill O'Connor, who lives in Las Vegas, and he's working with Professor Joy Jones, who's a professor at UC Irvine.
And they take cells and they irradiate them.
So they damage them, basically, with radiation.
And they know about how many normally die after that.
And then Michael, who is in Las Vegas, hundreds of miles away, will then attempt to connect with the cells and send energy to them to heal them.
And they're getting like 90% healing recovery rate very dramatic
uh... improvements over the normal uh... rate and they actually did controlled
experiments yes controlled experiment underway now but they've got a
hope that this will finish the first said they have other ones that they're
planning but uh...
but the first ones look very very definitely promising that there's
something going on there
Well, I didn't have anything terribly wrong.
things that have been done before but Michael is demonstrating his ability.
In fact, a couple days ago I asked him to just do a session on me.
So I'm here in Colorado Springs and he's there in Las Vegas and I'm sitting down in a chair
and he starts his whatever it is he does.
What is it you wanted done, doctor?
Well, I didn't have anything terribly wrong.
My knees hurt a little bit, you know, but I mostly wanted to feel what it felt like.
I just wanted to see if it was the subject of this energy.
Or intent or energy, yes.
Exactly.
And within about a minute there was this enormous peace that just enveloped me.
It was like, almost like the sound in the room seemed to stop and you just kind of get
very, very quiet, which for me is not a normal state.
Yeah, I think I can tell.
And then another minute or so, maybe it was like a prickly kind of energy.
That I could feel.
It was very strange, hard to describe, but unusual.
And a couple other things after that.
Well, that's already pretty intense.
Now, how do you know, of course you don't, do you wonder at all, Doctor, and only you can answer this, if this effect was coming as an expectation generated by your brain, Or it was so external and so unmistakable that it had to have been external?
Well, it's a good question, and obviously I was hoping there might be something, but I didn't know what to expect.
So you had expectations?
Well, yeah, except I also know that I'm not a very good subject, so if nothing had happened, I wouldn't be surprised.
Yeah, but the real crux of the question here is So powerful and so obviously external?
It was unusual.
Two or three of the feelings that happened were unusual.
Also, Michael read to me the testimony of people who have received this type of energy and the symptoms they were describing were the same as what I described.
The quietness and the prickly.
Several different things.
Well, that's even worse, in a way, because he described to you what was about to happen to you.
No, no, no.
Or was this afterwards?
Afterwards.
Oh, well, that's fine.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, that's okay.
But, you know, I certainly would not take one case like that as proof of anything.
If you experience it, then that's more dramatic for you.
But for the cancer cells, they didn't know what to expect.
The good thing is when you are doing healing on animals or cells, then this whole idea of expectation and the placebo effect goes away.
And those effects are pretty dramatic, I think.
If I had some form of cancer, I would not care if it was the placebo effect or not.
As long as it went away, that'd be cool.
Exactly.
Unfortunately, the kind of person I am, I'm a great skeptic, actually.
I know people don't believe that, but doctor, I am.
I'm a skeptic, and I think it would put up a barrier to it working for me.
Right, right.
Well, I describe in the book my first encounter with a healer.
This was maybe 15 years ago.
You know, it's funny how our life has a pattern and a path to it.
It just so happens that when I was first beginning to explore this stuff back in the mid-80s, I was introduced to a healer who was actually world-famous.
A doctor I knew introduced me to him.
His name is Mitek Virkas, who lives in Bethesda, Maryland.
He's a Polish émigré who had been one of three Healers assigned to work alongside doctors in hospitals in Poland.
Yes.
And he did both diagnosis and healing.
And so he, I was trying to understand how he did what he did.
And he was describing subtle energies and auras and stuff like that, which to me was just like talking about Mars or something.
It was totally foreign.
But he said, well, stand up and let me just show you.
Okay.
...was in my typical state at the end of the day, having had six cups of coffee and being very left-brained and kind of hyper and everything.
And I'm standing up, and he's walking behind me, and he's breathing kind of funny.
It's like a very slow intake and a couple of sharp exhalations.
And he's walking three or four feet away, and he's walking very, very slowly, and I'm thinking, what can this do?
You're probably thinking, did I use the stick this morning?
I'm just very pessimistic, you know?
And thinking like you do, you know, well, even if it works for some people, it's not going to work for me, you know?
And within about five minutes, I noticed that I was not only relaxing, but also feeling really happy.
And within about 15 minutes, I felt so exuberant, so full of energy and vitality.
I felt almost like I could fly.
You know, there's just this amazing change in my physiology.
From whatever he was doing.
So there's no question in my mind, this was not expectation.
But anyway.
No, it was dramatic.
It was dramatic, but I think the best cases, and there's been a lot of them done, and I talk about some of them in the book, are the remote healing where there are either non-human subjects who don't know what to expect, or in the good randomized studies where they're humans, but they don't know what's being done to them.
So again, the placebo is kind of cancelled out there.
Boy, I'll tell you, until I understood the possible, or even now I think probable, power of consciousness, Doctor, I really thought this healing stuff was a bunch of bunk.
Honestly.
But you know, it explains it.
I mean, if there can be this effect that we're talking about, it's not placebo, it's real, and we're getting enough proof now that it's real from the hardcore scientific community, then it backs it up.
I mean, it does say, well, we can make these kinds of changes.
How much have you observed?
There's been a lot of proof offered out there of, you know, people with, I don't know, cancers and x-rays, both before and after that kind of thing.
Have you looked into all of that enough so that you say, oh yeah, it's real?
I've read enough of the reports in the scientific literature from people who study these things to be convinced that there are people who really can do this, and that there's a real effect going on there.
And certainly I would also, if I were sick.
It's going to be my next question.
In other words, you researched it enough to really, honestly, if you got sick with some sort of terminal something, what would you do?
Would you go to a regular doctor and do that?
Or would you forget the regular doctor and do that?
Well, this may sound flaky, but the first thing I would do is get an airplane ticket for Brazil.
There is a man in Brazil named John of God.
Who makes all this stuff look like child's play.
And I know that, you know, again, this is the type of thing where it's hard.
Well, I don't know how much you know about him.
All right, let me, I'm going to stop you and tell you, say something that maybe will surprise a lot of people and surprised me.
And I, I don't know anything about John of God, doctor, except my own sister.
Moved to Brazil to be near John of God.
Yep.
Yeah.
I'm serious.
I understand.
She bought land down there.
She lives down there now in Brazil.
And she went down there to... because of John of God.
And I don't know... I guess I've heard stories of healings and such.
But I just thought I'd let you know that's how close to my family Yeah.
This John of God thing is.
So tell me about it.
Well, I've not been to him myself.
I have a couple of good friends who have been down there.
One has been down there twice.
He's a man who basically puts all of this paranormal stuff, in a way it becomes like child's play.
He actually has taken over.
Here I'm speaking not as a scientist, but just by the reports.
But again, I find him very credible.
It's the sort of thing, if you just sort of heard about him and didn't have anything else to go by, you might say, this is impossible.
Well, tell me something about this John.
What are the claims that are made?
And what's the proof?
There are about 3,000 people every day that he treats.
They line up outside this little building or set of buildings in this town 100 miles from Brasilia.
And about 3,000 people go through there every day.
And a lot of them, a large number, are healed or claim that they're healed, and he charges nothing.
There's a variety of summer jet-setters from Europe and from America.
Charlotte McLean went there when she had cancer, and he supposedly cured her.
There are peasants from Brazil who walk there, or they take the buses there.
And there's a book by a man named Pellegrino Estrich that is probably one of the best The best book in English about the cases that... He's very, very famous, of course, in Brazil.
Well, worldwide, apparently.
Yeah, yeah.
And he's taken over... He's taken over by entities.
So when he's doing his operations, for example, when people have maybe glaucoma or something wrong with their eye, he goes into a trance.
Yes.
He won't even be looking at the person.
He'll pick up a rusty butcher knife or a rusty kitchen knife.
Oh, great.
And he'll scrape their eyeball while looking out into the crowd for, like, the next person or something he's going to work on or something.
What?
He'll scrape their eyeball.
While he's looking into the crowd?
Yes.
And, of course, there's no anesthesia.
He'll just touch the person.
They kind of go into some kind of state.
They don't feel anything.
And, you know, healings occur.
Man, I'll tell you, if I saw some guy coming at me with a rusty butch knife ready to take after my eye, I'd be... My friend, there is a room off, there's a room off to the side, there's a room off to the side... What?
Where people bleed after being treated?
No, no.
No, apparently not.
There's a room off to the side where people sit in what they call currant.
They pray to send him energy.
And my friend was in this room helping to support him by praying and he brought in a patient who needed some kind of abdominal surgery.
And he lifted up their shirt and pointed at their abdomen and a cut, a suture or something, an incision appeared while she was watching.
That's very impressive.
That's very impressive.
Where's the film?
Well, I understand.
I understand.
It's the type of thing that would take a lot of documentation to convince people to don't go there.
Actually, I've heard.
There are films, right?
Of this kind of thing.
The skeptics go nuts with it, you know?
And you?
You really do believe this?
Yeah, I do.
I do.
I've seen enough of it, and I know people who have been there, that I am convinced that it's real.
But I think after you immerse yourself in this for a while, you start to develop intuition about it, about what feels right and what feels fake.
And there certainly are plenty of fakes out there.
Important things, just as you are a skeptic, too.
I'm also a skeptic, and I started out being extremely skeptical, and you have to be.
So you always are looking for evidence either way, and try to separate out the fakes from the real stuff.
Because if you're trying to make a theory of the universe, you don't want things in there that aren't real.
I wonder what this John of God thing is of interest to me.
I mean, somebody in my own family.
All the way to Brazil to follow John of God, so it must be a big deal.
Is it possible, I guess I ought to do some reading on this and look into it, but John of God is one of those who goes as far as you just mentioned, for example, can open somebody's body with thought?
Apparently so, yeah.
And he would even say that he's not doing it, that his physical body is there.
But there are these entities which he describes.
He knows who they are and he'll give the names.
Basically, they are doctors or other very enlightened people who are dead.
And he describes and gives the names of them, who are these various entities.
And they take over his body during his operations.
So it's all kind of unseen, paranormal-type forces that are really involved in this.
He doesn't even know what he's done when it's over.
Is there any record of this going wrong, or is the success rate just, you know, complete?
I'm trying to decide.
Is this like a miracle?
It is like a miracle, but I don't know about that.
That's a good question.
I don't know who's keeping the data.
Following up?
Finding out if these things come back?
If you read Pellegrino Estrich's book, About John of God, he does talk about doctors who have gone down there to do research.
I think he mentions a skeptical doctor who went down there and ended up becoming a helper.
Really?
Yeah, so that there are people who become converted from the experience.
But it's good to follow it up and find out for yourself what's there.
Is it a cult?
I don't think so, no.
It's people who basically come from the experience itself.
Or changed.
Their opinion has changed, I think.
You know, but you could see how a cult would form up behind an apparent power like that, huh?
Yeah, yeah.
My impression is that it's not.
But, you know, I have not been there.
Okay.
Well, fascinating.
And then, of course, there are those, I believe, also in the Philippines, isn't it?
Yeah.
And in those cases, there have been, there's been video evidence.
Do you find it compelling?
I have not looked into the video evidence very thoroughly.
I know that in Brazil, before John of God appeared on the scene, there was another Brazilian healer named Arrigo.
ariko was capable of many of the same thing
i'm not saying for example when i first heard about my own sister going down to
uh... being near this job my eyebrows raised a little bit
uh...
You know, talking to other family members, we go, wow!
You know, like that.
But there might be something to it.
In other words, there may be a connection, apparently is a connection, to this business of consciousness.
And it's becoming more and more obvious to me that it's absolutely real.
That everything about this is absolutely real.
Tell you what, we're going to call our guest back right now.
His phone has been resting because it's one of those portable phones.
We've been giving it an opportunity to rest.
Let's see if it's all set to roar here.
Doctor?
Are you there?
I'm here.
Good.
Good.
Excellent.
Excellent.
All right.
What I want to do is allow some of the audience to ask you questions, and my guess is They're going to take a very wide range indeed.
Kind of these areas that you might raise a little eyebrow about.
I bet you get a lot of questions in that area.
Obviously, you've done a lot of investigation into this kind of thing.
Right.
So here it comes.
First time, and we just lost him.
Stand by a second.
We'll try this one more time.
That wasn't supposed to happen.
Live radio, folks.
That's the way it works.
Here we go.
We'll give it one more try.
And, with luck, Doctor, you're there now.
Alright, we're going to try this one last time.
You wouldn't have believed what was on there.
You just flat would not have believed what I got when I called that number.
Absolutely wouldn't have believed it.
We're going to give this another try.
See if the good doctor is there.
I'm particularly looking forward to the questions you're going to ask.
I have a feeling, as I said, they're going to range all over the place.
Let's see if we can connect this time.
Doctor?
Yes.
You are there.
I was, but after silence it began beeping strangely.
Well, let me tell you, I occasioned to, in a panic, call back, and I got this quite remarkable recording.
Absolutely remarkable, actually.
The Ghost Museum, I take it.
It was an absolute riot.
We're going to try it now.
Let's try it again.
Okay.
Okay.
First time color line.
You're on the air with Dr. Swanson.
Good morning.
Hi, Art.
Yes.
Kevin from Horton, Oregon.
Yes.
And good evening, doctor.
Evening.
I had two questions.
One was I wondered what your opinion about Carilion photography.
And I also wondered if you'd ever read any of the teachings of the sage from India that came in the 1920s, Paramahansa Yogananda.
Oh, yes.
Well, that's above my head, so let's start there.
Sure.
Well, as far as Kirlian photography goes, the Russians, of course, developed this, and it's a way of applying some high frequency voltages over the skin.
And what they find is that there are patterns of light that get emitted, and you can photograph these patterns of light.
And they believe that they are basically kind of exciting the subtle energy field, the auras and the chakras around the body and the acupuncture points, I guess, specifically.
And they've developed ways of analyzing diseases by taking a picture of, say, a person's abdomen or their arm, and they will be able to see the acupoints that will show up on the photography about the colors and the brightness, as they can tell, They make predictions about what organs are having certain problems.
So, it's a pretty well-developed technique in Russia.
This stuff became well-known in America, I guess, in the very early 70s.
There are people in the U.S.
who have claimed that it's just moisture that's causing these effects on the film.
And there's nothing really very unusual about it.
And if you take a picture of a nickel, it'll also show up on Kirlian Photography and things
like that.
So there are skeptics.
All right.
Here's one that broke through my veil a little bit.
Maybe you can burst this bubble or not.
And that is, I've heard that they've done Kirlian Photography of people who, for example,
recently lost a limb.
And the limb in that photography still shows up or some outline of it or a plant with a
leaf cut off or something like that.
Right.
Yes, I've seen those too.
That is true?
Yes, it is true.
And also, there's one set of whole body curlions.
There's a technique for taking the whole body as a curlion photograph, and I've seen a couple of those, and there's one remarkable picture Where the lady is going out of body while the Kirlian photograph is being made.
And it actually shows her, the lights from her chakras and part of her aura displaced off to the side away from her physical body.
It's just very remarkable.
So I think there's something very real to it.
I think in America we're probably kind of behind the curve as far as understanding the technology as well as the Russians do.
But I think there's something real to it.
As far as Yogananda goes, I...
He came from India to the West because he and his teachers believed that we in the West, it was time to reunite this Eastern wisdom that they have with the Western technology basically.
And that's really what he was about.
So it really fits in very well with the whole Hopi prophecy idea.
I think it's very true and it meshes very well with what we're talking about tonight.
All right, all right.
Wild Card Line, your turn with Dr. Claude Swanson.
Good morning.
Hello.
Hello.
Oh, hi.
How are you, Art?
Quite well, sir.
And your name is?
My first name is Denver, and I'm calling you from in between Dallas and Houston.
Okay.
I'm listening to you on 570 there.
Yes, sir.
My question for your guest is about those miracle healings.
Um, could there be some kind of sleight of hand going on out there?
Because there's some really talented magicians I've seen on TV do some pretty amazing things, like pull heads off chicken and put it back on and make it live, you know?
Huh?
This guy's right on the money, and I guess I would ask the same question.
Unfortunately, Dr. Swanson, we live in a day and age where with film and digitizing and computers, oh God, anything's possible now.
So actual physical evidence of the kind of thing we're talking about, or video evidence of the kind of thing we're talking about, is going to always be suspect.
Yeah, unless you go down there yourself.
In terms of John of God?
Any of them.
Yeah.
Well, you're right.
I mean, it's always, unless you get personally involved and take your own equipment, and then when you come back, then at least you become convinced, but it's short to somebody else and they have the same questions.
So it's a good question.
I think for me, what is persuasive, at least, is that word of mouth among the peasants and the farmers in Brazil, I mean, they would not be, you know, they would very quickly Tell their neighbors if he was faking it, because they wouldn't be healed.
But it's a good question.
You know, I guess it's the kind of thing that you would have to see with your own eyes, and nothing short of that really would do.
And even then, gosh, you know, magicians are capable of sleight of hand.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Swanson.
Hi.
Hello, Art and Dr. Swanson.
Dr. Swanson, my mother lives in southwest Utah and goes to a chiropractor in the St.
George area and he does something that supposedly involves this chi energy called kinesiology and that's not body language as that term is sometimes used, but he asked her to bring in all her nutritional supplements and he would then use this kinesiology to tell Which of the supplements were bad for her and which were good.
And he would do this by asking her to hold the bottle of supplements in her outstretched arm, and then he would push down on the arm.
And if the arm would go down, that meant that the supplement would be bad for her.
Right.
Now, I'm not a closed-minded person, but To me, this sounds somewhat arbitrary.
I'm shaking my head.
I would think you would get different results depending on the relative strength of the person holding the supplement and the person pushing down on the arm.
Sure.
I'm familiar with this method and I share your concerns and the same questions that first occurred to me.
I recently met a kinesiologist who is very, very good.
I think there's some skill, some training involved.
With learning how to push down, how to detect when there's a real weakening and when there's not.
Of course, the theory is that, and this all goes back to the subconscious mind, that somehow the subconscious mind knows these things even when the conscious mind does not.
And therefore, the weakening is occurring at the subconscious level.
and somehow psychically the subconscious is able to connect in with these different materials
and recognize which ones are good and which ones are not.
I've had that a couple times with me and I think that there's something to it, but again
I think you're right that there's a skill also to be able to detect when a real weakening
is occurring.
So, and you know, it's one of those areas that fits in with all the other topics we're
talking about tonight.
You know, it's the same type of thing.
It certainly goes against the conventional science.
But I think there's something to it.
And I'm going to say it again.
Before I had considered this whole realm of consciousness and seen some of the supporting evidence, I don't know, Princeton, what they've done, that kind of thing, my own experiments, I just, there's not a chance in the world that I would have believed in any of what we're hearing about right now.
I'd have said, come on.
You know, the world is full of stuff and that's stuff.
All right, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Swanson.
Hello.
Yes, hi.
Hi.
I've been in communication with a Chinese medical doctor who has, for several decades, been effectively rejuvenating older humans by exposing them to the bio-electromagnetic fields of young wheat plants.
And he believes that the genetic information in the bio-electromagnetic fields of other species, other than our own, Actually activates our own silent genes and causes significant rejuvenation.
And he believes that psychic information is also transmitted between living beings by this biological EHF.
Also, he calls it bio-microwave.
And his device somehow amplifies this ability of communication between The bio-electromagnetic fields that contain this information somehow, and I was wondering, Dr. Swanson, it involves bio-photons, and I'm wondering if you can add anything to this.
I mean, it's amazing what he's doing, but it seems to really tie into the whole idea of physics Yeah, I'm not familiar with this particular method that he's using.
I mean, the whole idea of bio-photons is real.
The Russians and Europeans have been sort of the leaders in this whole area.
Well, help me out here.
What are bio-photons?
Well, every cell, when it's carrying out its different chemical processes, Also, it absorbs and emits light, but it's a special kind of light.
It tends to be coherent.
It has aspects of laser light about it.
It's very weak, but it has a coherent phase.
The phases of the different photons are kind of in step with each other as well.
Is there a way to measure it?
Yes, there have been measurements.
Absolutely.
How?
Definitely has been measured.
Do you know how?
Well, I think, I was going to say, I think that Gary Schwartz has been making some measurements.
They have a very dark chamber and a very sensitive photomultiplier tube so that you put a living thing in the chamber and there should be no light there unless it's emitting something.
Right.
So that's one way of doing it.
There's a famous experiment that was done by a Russian named Koznotchev.
He would take He would take cells and he would poison them.
And in the next little glass container that was totally separate from the first one, he would only allow light to pass through.
And he found that when there was a quartz window, so that it would allow certain frequencies to pass through, the ones in the separate protected container got the same effect.
They died the same way that the ones in the first container died, as though some kind of special light, which they call biophotons, are emitted and they transfer the same information through and cause damage in the second one.
Let me get this straight.
The worms in the second enclosure weren't exposed?
Correct.
At all?
They were cells, I think.
Or whatever, cells.
Yeah, not exposed at all.
They were in a separate sealed glass container.
And the first one was then poisoned?
Correct.
And the cells in the second untouched container died the same exact way?
Providing there was a quartz window between them.
A quartz window?
If there was a normal glass window, they were not affected.
Holy mackerel!
So it's certain frequencies of light that go through quartz, but not through glass.
Uh-huh.
There are a lot of experiments like this.
This is probably 30 years of work on biophotons, and it's a It's a whole important area that probably kind of couples in conventional physics with the unknown parts of biology because there's a coherency to these photons that we don't normally think about in our normal science.
Do you have any idea at all what it is about the quartz that allowed this effect to occur?
Well, the only thing I know is quartz allows UV to go through when normal glass does not.
So it's the higher frequencies that probably are affecting the cells, but I don't know beyond that what...
So obviously then you would begin to try and measure for UV radiation taking place during this process?
Yeah, except that probably there's something very special about this light.
It's not just UV light. It is light that is encoded. It's light that is where the photons are kind of
coupled together. They have a coherency about them so that they're communicating
something very specific that normally we don't think about like being able to communicate.
Thank you.
Well, it would be a first step to be able to measure, or at least start to measure, the actual communication medium and understand where that is, if it can be done.
I mean, I guess it's, again, here we go toward the quantum world, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Indeed, interesting stuff.
Dr. Claude Swanson is my guest.
And, you know, I always like to give everybody an opportunity to plug their book.
It's the Synchronized Universe, New Science of the Paranormal.
That's the title, right doctor?
It's available where?
Well, the easiest way is to go to my website, which is www.synchronizeduniverse.com.
I'm sure we have a link.
Order it there.
And Synchronized has a Z in it.
Some people, in English you have to put S's in that word, but it has a Z in American.
But that's the best way to buy it.
Okay.
And so you sort of, I don't know, chapter by chapter try and bring all the proof together.
I'm really trying to talk to those skeptics and the left brain people out there who, if
they're open minded enough to ask the question and to listen, there's a huge amount of data.
I'm trying to put it in a very user friendly, readable, fun kind of way with lots of pictures
and diagrams and stuff, but also with references to the real evidence, 400 references and stuff,
so that anybody who really wants to track this down and convince themselves that this
is real, it's a good place to go to get the answer.
Alright, well here's a left-brained response for you from Marty in San Rafael, California.
He says, Hey, James Randi has pointed out for years that scientists, that would mean you, are among the easiest to fool precisely because they think they can't be.
If he believes, work out a controlled test with Randy, win the million-dollar prize, show us a claim, controlled evidence.
Two things.
Okay.
All right.
Number one, I have some friends who took the remote viewing courses, and they were very talented, much better than I was, and they actually tried to take Randy up on that prize offer, and they found that when they contacted him and began trying to set up the conditions for the experiment, He began shifting the conditions.
Oh.
And they never were able to work out anything that was at all reasonable.
Mostly, Randy would have his own judges, basically, to judge the results.
I see.
And a variety of different conditions.
The whole thing began to change, including the size of the prize.
Well, that doesn't seem fair.
The judges, it seems, should be non-partisan.
I mean, that's right?
One would think, yeah.
And the other part is that You know, Randy would go on TV and he would say, well, here's how Uri Geller bent that spoon.
And he would take a broken spoon and do a sleight of hand and have that in his fingers and he would wiggle it and kind of say, well, this is what he's doing.
But there are dozens of cases where Geller bent spoons in other people's hands.
You know, didn't even touch it, didn't come close to it.
And I've been to spoon bending parties.
Where a ten-year-old boy next to me was bending his spoon up into a pretzel.
He never even met Uri Geller, and Geller was nowhere around, so that people can learn these skills so that it's not a fraud, despite what Randy's saying.
I sure would love to see that for myself.
All right.
First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Dr. Swanson.
Good morning.
Good evening, Dr. Swanson.
This is Larry from Fort Lauderdale.
Hi, Larry.
I wanted to ask you, do you think that there is some paranormal or spiritual rule that Would prevent you from completely removing all doubt, let's say, from the most skeptical people by, for instance, taking maybe 10 or 20 terminally ill patients from the Mayo Clinic that have been totally checked out.
They have a disease that cannot be cured, down to Brazil, with cameras.
Not like you'd see the press storming this man, but in a very proper way, videotaping keeping accurate records of every step of the way and then
seeing them come back into this country, going back through CAT scans, MRIs and blood tests,
and absolutely proven that it could never happen unless there really is something
that is occurring that just defies all, with all the skeptics.
I'm all for that.
How about you, Doctor?
Yeah, great experiment.
I think someone may have to put up some money to fund that experiment, but it's a wonderful idea and I'd love to see it too, yeah.
But do you think there's any rule that prevents us from, you know, absolutely having that kind of proof that maybe it has to rely a little on faith, that we can't You know, prove to the whole world, sort of like UFOs not landing during the Super Bowl game.
You know, I think what's pretty amazing to me, I think that even if you did that experiment, and they all came back totally healed, a lot of skeptics would not change their mind.
Yeah, but a lot would.
But a lot would, I agree, yeah.
I mean, if there was something, for example, on the level of 60 minutes, or, you know, some program like that, and they took 10 people down there, and they came back CAT scanned, declared cured, Boy, I'll tell you, that would rip a hole in the force, Doctor.
It would.
It would be a wonderful experiment.
There actually have been a lot of studies that have been done of energy healing, not with John of God, but with less powerful healers.
But still, statistically, they're pretty overwhelming.
You really seem to put a lot of stock in this John of God, don't you?
I mean, you seem to put him on a pedestal above others who claim the same.
It's only an intuition based upon one book by Pellegrino Estridge and a few people who I know have been there.
I think what's most convincing to me probably is that the large number of people who go every day and he doesn't charge anything.
So clearly he's not in it for the money.
So there's something else going on there.
Alright, Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Swanson.
Hi.
Well, I'd like to say that I'm very, very open-minded and also objective at the same time.
And I did go to Abidjania to see John of God.
Oh, you did?
Yes.
No kidding?
Yeah.
I was there for three weeks and really wanted to believe everything.
And I believe that if you're not open, that things that may possibly happen won't happen if you're not open.
I really remained open, but I also, you know, asked people about their experiences, again with a very open mind, and there are so many things that sound great that have fallen through.
Every case of somebody saying that they were actually healed by something, you know, I get all excited and then they come back and say, You know, I did just get done with a bout of chemotherapy before I came here.
Hello?
Yeah, we're still here.
I heard a click.
Yeah, so did I. Anyway, as far as the money, not asking for money, that was also very exciting to me, and I thought, well, he's got to be for real.
But it turns out, and this is again from speaking to a lot of people, that the tour guides Tell Jow, John of God, who in their group are chiropractors or other health care practitioners.
And then Jow, on the side, approaches them and says, you know, you're a very special healer.
We have this special quartz crystal for, you know, $6,000 that would really help you in your healing practice.
All right.
Doctor, enough, young lady.
I get the picture, and I'm sure the doctor does.
Doctor, what do you say?
Well, what can you say?
I mean, those are good points.
I have not been there.
I haven't been there myself.
All we have are these anecdotal stories from lots of different people.
I wonder if these are vendors separate from John of God, or whether they're actually sort of in the employ of John of God.
Yeah.
You don't know, because certainly with a large crowd like that, it would attract anyone who wants to take advantage of it.
Exactly.
Can I say something else?
Absolutely.
I mean, do you know?
Well, it turns out that the book by Pellegrino Estrich, which again was the first thing I read that you referred to, Dr. Swanson, is very exciting, and there are what seem like very solid sort of testimonials.
But, you know, even when you get there, when you speak to people who've been around there, who are kind of part of the community, they say, well, that book grossly overstates what seem to be successes, and, you know, very few people really have anything happen.
And I thought, well, gee, if I see somebody's eyeball being scraped with a rusty knife and they don't get sick, I'll start to go, gee, there's got to be something to it.
They have two types of healings.
One is where you just sort of get healed by being in his presence, and other are the physical But not one person, not once did I see somebody get cut into, it wasn't offered and yet their videos are, they're pushing it saying,
You know, look what we've done with people, but nobody... I'm not sure they could give everybody a private viewing.
Well, they do it in front of everybody.
You know, everyone knows who had an actual physical thing.
So, I mean, are you working up to... you came to the conclusion that it was all hooey?
I'm still trying to talk myself into that there's something I missed, but... You know, and I believe that it can happen, that people can do this, but I don't think he's doing it.
Well, that sounds sincere to me, Doctor.
It does sound sincere, and it's certainly important to keep that in mind.
I have heard that he's been under enormous pressure for years.
He's been in jail, I think, before.
The medical community really does not like someone who's taking away their practice.
Oh, I'm sure.
But the medical community also doesn't like quacks.
Of course.
I wonder.
What I was going to say is that my understanding is that they used to do a lot more of these public Demonstrations, and they've kind of gone behind the scenes now because of legal problems.
I can bet.
Yeah, I'm sure.
But it's all important.
I mean, this is... Who knows?
I mean, who knows?
I don't know.
All we have is... All we have is what?
Stories.
Well, over on the one side, like that young lady just told.
Right, exactly.
And she really sounded like she went down there wanting to believe it was true and confirm it all.
Right, I agree.
Okay, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Swanson.
Hi.
Hello.
Hello, is that me?
That's you.
Oh, hi Art Bell.
I just wanted to wish you a happy birthday and thanks for many years of keeping me awake on the midnight shift here at Columbia University.
Yes sir, thank you.
I'm getting everybody to listen to you.
Over here.
But I wanted to tell you and your guests, I wanted to maybe get some input about this experience I had about 20 years ago.
Alright, we're kind of short on time, so lay it on us.
It was a seance and in the seance these ascended masters materialized and there were objects that came into the room and at the end of the seance the medium came out and all these objects came out of his eyes and his mouth and we were allowed to, you know, check out the circumstances and make sure that there was no, like, fakery or anything like that.
I do come from somewhat of a background of scientific investigation in paranormal phenomena.
And what I felt, and just from that, you know, I think that there was something unusual that took place, but, you know, I'll let you... You think it was real?
I think it was real, because I was healed.
I felt like a healing had taken place, and that night, after years of trying to astrally project, I had my first astral projection experience, and ever since then, it's been like One thing after another, as far as paranormal experiences are concerned.
Okay.
Positive for you, obviously.
All right.
Well, there you are, Doctor.
I mean, one very negative, followed by one very positive.
You know, one thing that I mention in the introduction to my book is that we're kind of at the beginning of a whole new, powerful scientific revolution.
And just to go back to what happened when electricity was discovered.
The same type of thing happened.
You had anecdotal evidence.
People experienced things.
You had Ben Franklin in his kite.
Someone walks across a carpet and gets a shock, and they say, OK, there's something here.
But then trying to get from that, from those anecdotal examples, to a real science with equations and well-demonstrated experiments is a long process.
And so we have a variety of different kinds of evidence here.
So the John of God or the other healers, every one is to be looked at, you know, and considered, but at some point, the science has to get hard, like in the Princeton experiments, where you have good statistics that can really prove, yay or nay, these are real, they're repeatable.
That's right.
So we're kind of in the middle, so we have to keep our open mind, but keep learning.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Swanson.
Good morning.
Hello, this is Trent from Washington.
Yes, Trent.
I had a very interesting experience and it demonstrates that it can be seen.
My father in the early 80s was going in for an operation on his spleen and he called me up and it could have been life-threatening and he wanted to have a last talk with me just in case.
And I went to call down after his operation should have been performed.
He had it.
He went over to Las Vegas from St.
George, Utah, which is the same.
Anyhow, he was at home in St.
George and he was supposed to be in Las Vegas, you know, a day after his operation.
And he answered the phone and I finally drug out of him that he had gone to see.
OK.
this guy and the way they discovered this was when he was in Las Vegas they took the
final operation x-rays and they matched it up with their prior x-rays and there was nothing
on the spleen that matched and they thought they had a different patient. And it took
some time of straightening out and finally one lady got involved and she was looking
at trying to figure out why the name was the same it was right on the x-ray on both x-rays
the same name and they couldn't justify how this thing had completely changed in the spleen
area and so one lady finally said wait a minute you're not from St. George Utah are you? And
And he says, you didn't go happen to see a doctor?
I said, yes.
All right.
Oh, well, you can go home now.
That explains it.
We've had this happen a bunch of times.
All right.
Listen, because I was unsure, I removed the name of the doctor.
OK.
All right.
But you're telling me that this was an absolute, verifiable success?
Yes, there was quite a mystery.
He said it took, he was waiting an hour and a half and finally three or four people were working on it and finally a woman walked in that happened to know that there had been a bunch of confused x-rays and so she started narrowing it down to where did you come from and who did you see and it turned out to be the same guy responsible for other such events at that hospital.
Yeah, okay.
I'm clear on it.
Thank you very much.
So, there you go.
Another very positive report, Doctor.
And I suppose, you know, I thought it through.
Again, I think if I had some sort of fatal disease, I'd play both.
I'd go to a traditional doctor, and then I'd also probably experiment with some of this.
What do you think?
Hedge your bets, yeah.
Well, yeah, hedge my bets.
Sure.
Would you hedge yours?
I think so.
It depends probably on the disease, too.
I mean, obviously some things the body really does seem to respond very well to.
If the immune system, the healing powers of the body, like a lot of cancers, for example, our medical science does not seem to have a good handle on.
The chemotherapy and things, a lot of times, are very hard on the body itself.
And it may be even worse than the disease sometimes.
So, it depends on how well our medical system is able to handle that particular problem, I think.
Alright.
Well, it has been a pleasure having you on the program.
The program just whizzes by because we're into fascinating stuff here.
So, it's been great to have you.
We'll have you back again sometime.
And please continue the research.
Thank you very much.
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