Dr. Claude Swanson, a Princeton-educated physicist, details his shift from mainstream science to paranormal research after verifying remote viewing experiments like Pat Price’s in the mid-1980s, including firewalking with Tony Robbins and altered thermal conductivity. He explores Bill Tiller’s theories on consciousness reshaping physical laws—like creating magnetic monopoles—and suggests thoughts generate 3D energy patterns affecting distant matter, citing PEAR studies (5 billion-to-1 odds against chance). Swanson also examines orbs in haunted locations, linking them to OBEs and energy forms tied to identity, while crediting John of God’s unexplainable healing methods. Though skeptical of direct verification, he acknowledges compelling anecdotes, like Trent’s father’s unexplained spleen operation linked to a hospital healer, and advocates cautious integration of paranormal findings into science, referencing The Synchronized Universe for skeptics. [Automatically generated summary]
Beth Holloway Twittey said Aruban authorities should pressure the young men to reveal what they know about the disappearance of the 18-year-old.
Well, I would imagine that's going on.
I wonder what level of pressure she has in mind.
The military announced the killing of four more U.S. soldiers on Sunday, pushing the death toll now past 1,700.
Police found the bullet-ripped bodies of 28 people, many thought to be Sunni Arabs, buried in shallow graves or just dumped on streets.
Vice President Dick Cheney, reacting to a growing chorus of calls to close the U.S. prison at Guantanamo, where terrorism suspects are held, said, uh-uh, no plans to close it up.
Bomb blasts struck Iranian government buildings in the capital of an oil-rich border province, followed within hours by two other bombs in central Tehran.
So they've got some trouble over there.
Israeli researchers have apparently germinated a sapling date palm from seeds 2,000 years old, hoping its ancient DNA might reveal medicinal qualities to benefit future generations.
One of the scientists leading the project said on Sunday, Sarah Salon of the Lewis Borick National Medicine Research Center in Jerusalem said she and her colleagues used seeds found in archaeological excavations in Masada, the desert mountain fortress where ancient Jewish rebels chose suicide over capture by Roman legions in A.D. 73.
She said they were the oldest seeds ever to be brought back to life.
Now, Ramona tells me that only a female will continue the line, so hopefully they get themselves a female.
Well, here in the desert, it is not really summertime yet, strangely.
We've had temperatures for the most part in the 80s, and by this time, my goodness, nearing mid-June, we ought to be, well, above 100, but we're not in Vienna.
It's nearly summertime, and the living is chilly across a lot of Europe.
Fresh snow fell yesterday on parts of Austria, so much in some places that authorities closed roads to cars without tire chains.
And temperatures dip below freezing in corners of Croatia, England, and Scotland, fouling moods and spoiling picnics.
The unseasonably cold June has caused headaches even in Italy, a country that's normally balmy at this time of year.
Officials say cooler than usual temperatures and hailstorms have inflicted millions in damage on crops.
In agricultural areas near Verona in northeastern Italy, one of the hardest hit areas, between 30% and 40% of peaches and apples lost after hail pummeled trees.
Heavy rain driven by strong winds uprooted trees in Rome, left some cobblestone streets flooded yesterday, parts of Austria's Alps blanketed with nearly 16 inches of fresh snow in the country's automobile club said numerous tow trucks were called to aid stranded motorists.
So you don't get to hear about the weather elsewhere, except here.
Roads and airstrips across the western Arctic are sagging, cracking, and washing away as climate change is slowly melting the permafrost that held them up.
And as engineers try to adapt transportation networks and buildings to warmer weather, some say the consequences of doing nothing are already very apparent.
Just a short drive out of Yellowknife.
This is in the Northwest Territories.
It literally looks like an earthquake zone.
According to Northwest transportation planner Jay Lean Phillips, maintenance on the 700-meter section stopped after a new road was built in 99.
Now, cracks in the asphalt can swallow a fist and the shoulders have washed away.
The surface parts of which have sunk more than a meter is more like a roller coaster now than a road.
It gives you a vision of the amount of maintenance that might be required.
Warmer temperatures threaten permafrost and permanently frozen subsoil water that is widespread across all three territories and the northern reaches of most provinces.
Global warming is a rather hot topic that shows very little signs of cooling down at all.
Earth's climate is changing, but just how it's happening and our own role in the process somewhat less certain.
Here are a few facts.
There's little doubt the planet is warming.
Over the last century, the average temperature has climbed to about 1 degree Fahrenheit all around the world.
The spring ice thaw in the northern hemisphere occurred nine days earlier than it did 150 years ago, and the fall freeze now starts about 10 days later.
The 1990s was the warmest decade since the mid-1800s, hundreds rather, when record keeping began.
The hottest years ever recorded, 1998, 2002, 2003, 2001, and 1997.
There is more warming at higher latitudes.
In other words, it's not even the worldwide average, just one degree Fahrenheit, but not up north.
Alaska, western Canada, eastern Russia, average temperatures there have increased as much as four to seven degrees Fahrenheit.
It doesn't seem like a lot.
But in areas where you have permanent freezing and you're sitting sort of right on the edge of it's going to freeze or it's going to melt, we're getting melting.
And then I look over to my left at my computer screen on CNN and I see the following headline under science and space.
White House official who edited global warming report resigns.
A former oil industry lobbyist.
Oh, an oil industry.
Now there's the right guy.
If you want somebody to write about what's really happening with the climate, who do you reach out to?
Well, anyway, so a former oil industry lobbyist who changed government reports on global warming has resigned in a long-planned departure, said the White House on Saturday.
So I wonder what he was doing.
I mean, the hail is coming down, destroying crops, and what's he doing?
Saying, well, actually, it's a warm, beautiful, sunny day out there.
What's the matter with you people?
Can't you see everything is fine?
That's it.
Go to the oil industry to have them write our climate reports.
Oh, my.
Listen, June 10th, 2005, January 2005 was a stormy month in space.
With very little warning, a giant spot materialized on the Sun and began promptly exploding.
Between January 15th and 19th, Sunspot 720 produced four very, very powerful solar flares.
When it exploded a fifth time on January 20th, onlookers were not surprised at all.
They should have been, though.
Researchers realize now that the January 20th blast was something special.
It has shaken the foundations of space weather theory and possibly changed the way astronauts are going to operate when they return to the moon.
Sunspot 720 unleashed a totally new kind of solar storm.
Scant minutes after the January 20th flare, a swarm of high-speed protons surrounded the Earth and the Moon.
30 minutes later, the most intense proton storm in decades, decades, was underway.
We experienced that nearly instantly on the handbands.
I mean, everything just went berserk.
Solar physicist Robert Lynn of UC Berkeley says, we've been hit by strong proton storms previously, but never so quickly.
Proton storms normally develop hours or even days after a flare, but this one began in minutes.
Now, it just doesn't make sense.
How could those particles possibly have made it to Earth and the Moon that quickly?
It just can't be.
Only it was.
So the scientists now are scratching their heads because you see that means that our astronauts, for example, ones walking on the moon, who thought they would have hours or even days of warning in order to get into a very sheltered area, now might only have minutes and they would have to run to get back into safety or be irradiated to death.
Interesting story.
Israel is now considering using a very unusual new weapon against Jewish settlers who might attempt to resist this summer's Gaza Strip evacuation, a device that emits penetrating bursts of sound that leaves targets feeling dizzy and nauseous.
Security forces might employ the weapon to overcome resistance without resorting to force, their paramount aim, but experts warn the effects of prolonged exposure are unknown.
The Army employed the new device, which it dubbed the SCREAM.
That's what they call it, the SCREAM, at a recent violent demonstration by Palestinians and Jewish sympathizers against Israel's West Bank separation barrier.
Well, maybe they ought to call it the hurl.
Huh?
You just aim this at somebody and they hurl.
All right, we're going to be doing, in a moment, open lines, and it's going to be all yours until the top of the hour, when, by the way, we are due to be visited by Dr. Claude Swanson, a Princeton educated physicist who's worked as a conventional applied physicist for more than 20 years and has conducted extensive research into the physics of the paranormal.
Now, most physicists would say there's no such thing.
The paranormal has nothing to do with reality.
It's not real.
There can't be physics involved in something that is not real.
Tonight, a physicist who says baloney on this, somebody writes, Art, I thought you might be interested in this story.
Personally, I think it could be huge, especially since it could quicken the race to AI, artificial intelligence.
Scientists to create a digital copy of the brain.
They're actually going to attempt to create a brain.
See, they expect it to phenomenally accelerate the pace of neuroscience research.
Some experiments, just to study one pathway, may take us three years to complete.
With this model, the new model, this new equipment they have by IBM.
Well, IBM is building a custom version of its blue Genie supercomputer with 8,000 processors, each of which will simulate the behavior of one to two neurons, human neurons.
the system will have a peak processing of 22.8 teraflops, making it one of the world's 10 most powerful computer systems.
Gee, I wonder, one of these days they're going to invent something, they're going to put together a computer that is so fast, with so much storage, that we are going to experience the first...
I've been hearing not only of that, but even this night of snow in Colorado.
I'm telling you, boy, I'm telling you, the weather is turning upon us.
unidentified
Yeah, it was quite amazing.
We were stuck in traffic for an hour and a half, trapped between Cheyenne and Laramie, and then swogged for five and a half hours up into the mountains to go to the cabin we normally go into in June.
And again, the weather, I mean, quite obviously, the weather is changing.
Every story, so many stories.
Here, Europe is changing as forecast particularly quickly.
And I don't know that man can do all that much about it, to be honest with you.
I would like to be very green and say we could all change this by somehow driving a little less or driving and getting better mileage, but I think there's no turning it back.
The weather is going to change.
Man may or may not have any part of it or, you know, accelerating the process or whatever.
I have no idea.
But what we should be doing is preparing.
And that means shifting the areas where we know stuff is going to grow and beginning to abandon the areas where it won't grow so well anymore.
That would seem the logical approach.
But you see, that would require from our government a little bit of planning on our behalf.
They're supposed to act to be protecting us, right?
To protect and serve.
Well, that's police, and I guess it's the government too, to protect and serve.
And part of that means looking ahead and seeing what might affect our welfare.
And if, frankly, one of those things happens to be the weather, then by God, it's their job to look ahead and say, here's what's going to happen.
And here's what we better do so we can keep growing enough crops so we can feed the people that we govern.
Because that, you know, it's one of our basic jobs.
But what do we do instead?
Well, we give the job of watching the climate to some oil company executive who writes reports, Specifically, writing reports, changed reports that just don't exactly reflect reality.
so And now, as promised, all of you, first time caller line, you're on the air.
But anyway, they said that something's happened up in South Dakota.
They said a long time ago, a woman appeared to the tribes up there and said when she would return, a white buffalo would be born, which three weeks ago this happened, and all the tribes are heading to South Dakota.
Yeah, I think it might get worse before it gets better.
unidentified
Yeah.
And I don't know if you heard about this, but there was something on CeaseDown.
I don't know if you saw it the other day, but I mean, everybody's alarmed.
They said they had a meeting up there with the committee about the Patriot Act and the Civil Liberties, and Amnesty was there, the Arab American Institute and somebody else.
Anyway, they said because there is more reports coming out of abuses and deaths of these prisoners that we have all over the place, and they said the Arab countries are turning against us now.
They said they even turned against the countries we're trying to bring democracy to because they're going along with us, and because of what we've done, they said now we're in more danger.
You know, I've been seeing these stories lately on some of the tactics we've been using on the prisoners at Gitmo, that kind of thing.
I guess too quickly, you know, we forget that they drove airplanes into our buildings.
They killed thousands of American citizens.
They drove an airplane into the Pentagon.
They did terrible things.
So, you know, if somebody's got something around their neck with naked women and they're forced to stand there or something like that, I don't know how much emotion I work up over that if I bear in mind what brought it all on.
So I guess I'm getting a little tired of some of these stories with regard to the treatment that these poor terrorists are getting.
It's always bad when you're in the middle of a football, when you're on a football field and somebody's out on the 50-yard line waving around human parts.
I live way out in the Boonies, and ever since the most recent Phoenix lights, I've been desperately trying to get hold of you.
I wanted to let you know that last August, I was either privileged or damned to see actually a squadron of UFOs traverse the sky directly above one of our satellites.
I've been an avid listener, and I'm a little bit nervous, but I wanted to call you and tell you that I heard something very disturbing to me.
I'm calling from Canada.
I'm listening to you on CGLB.
Okay.
I was listening to one of our talk show hosts up here in the afternoon, and he had a guest on, and I'm just, I guess I'm calling you because I'm passing on this disturbing news that I heard.
And it was about, you might have heard about, we had tainted blood up here from the Red Cross up here in Canada, and people got sick from hepatitis, and a lot of people died.
Yes, well, I have long thought that perhaps the little guy wouldn't even make it to the bottom of the ramp before being filled with so much lead that he rolled the rest of the way.
I promised you that I would do some more of that on the air.
It's very difficult to do on the air because a lot of it is very, very difficult to hear.
But if you spend the time and just a little bit of effort and listen carefully, clearly an ongoing, real-time, contemporary discussion is being had with somebody on the other side.
Yeah, they're actually called black smokers, sir, and they're on the seabed.
And they're kind of like these mounds that are virtual volcanoes.
And they heat up the water adjacent to them.
Actually, they're extremely hot and would melt you in a New York second if you were near them.
But at certain distances, the water becomes quite tropical, even at extreme depths.
And there is life.
And so if life can, the scientists speculate, exist under those conditions, then life will be found, indeed, on other planets with similar volcanic action in the deep.
Any idea why Phoenix seems to be the focal point for so much of what's going on right now?
unidentified
I'm not sure.
We'll tell you one thing real quick that I was flying out of there on the Wednesday going back to California and I seen the same type of lights going across the sky underneath the plane.
I thought by Lake Havasu, but I didn't think anything of it at the time.
He has worked as a conventional applied physicist for more than 20 years and has conducted extensive research into the psychics of the paranormal.
This research has involved underwater archaeology and Bimini, scientific measurements in haunted houses, experiments in remote viewing and psychokinesis and testing of new devices which can measure these strange forces.
He has also, as you might imagine, written a book, The Synchronized Universe, New Science of the Paranormal, describing the scientific revolution he believes is underway Right now, and if I heard him correctly in our pre-show conversation about a minute, I believe he might be in a haunted house
I think it really just started from a quest for the truth, just wanting to know how things, how the universe really works, you know, and have the deepest truthful understanding that I possibly could, which I always had a lot of curiosity when I was a kid, and that was what drew me into science in the first place, and to MIT in Princeton.
But somewhere in the mid-80s, I was working in the Washington, D.C. area, and I met a couple of people.
I knew them pretty well, really, and they mentioned remote viewing.
They mentioned some of the Pat Price experiments where he would go into the basement of a shielded room at Stanford and in his mind could go out and examine a secret Russian facilities and draw detailed sketches.
And I said, wait a minute, this is impossible by our current science.
But what I was hearing was I couldn't dismiss the information.
So I knew that there was something that my education had overlooked.
And so once I realized that it was leaving out that, I said, well, what else is it leaving out?
What else have we been told is a hoax that's not a hoax?
What else is being left out?
So I began a very intensive program in the mid-80s for about 15 years, just researching every literature on every aspect of the paranormal.
And eventually, of course, UFOs come into there too, because it occurred to me one day that maybe somebody has already figured out this stuff a long time ago and has engineering now.
Well, I'm big on the search for truth as well, Doctor.
So in all these years, I mean, you obviously approached this whole subject as a scientist.
Right, right.
As a physicist.
And, you know, how convinced did you become that remote viewing and that other things that are claimed in the paranormal world, including the ability to move things or affect things, how convinced have you become it's real?
Well, eventually, very convinced, but I was skeptical to start with on everything.
I didn't want to, I wanted to make sure that I had really good solid data, and I wanted, so I would look into the papers first, to correspond on who was doing the research.
But then I would try to meet the researchers and see what they were like, understand what the procedures were, go to conferences, hear people give talks, and eventually also experiment myself with some of these things because this is after all consciousness.
And so we're all capable of these things to some extent.
So I wanted to have some direct experience.
So I took a remote viewing course, a psychic development course, and things like that to even fire walking, you know, to sort of see directly, hey, can I do this?
Our education system really kind of educates the left brain.
And a lot of times the psychic phenomena are better practiced when someone does not think too much about what they're doing, but just kind of relaxes and goes into it.
I have a very analytical mind.
So, for example, in fire walking, I was very nervous about my firewalk.
I did it with Tony Robbins in one of his big Unlimited Power weekends.
And I was so scared that I came two hours late to the meeting.
Well, Jack Hauck, you know, has done studies with taping thermocouples and things to the bottom of people's feet during firewalks, and he sees over 1,000 degrees, sometimes over 2,000 degrees.
Very, very hot temperatures are really down there.
All right, well, you're going to have to describe to me how 1,000 or 2,000 degrees could not burn the flesh off the bottom of feet that walk over these coals.
So I think that this is what is the frontier right now for people who are looking at this, is that how can our scientific laws be altered by these forces?
And there are people who were untrained who have tried this, who have been badly burned.
And there are ADEPs or people who are very talented who even can sort of lift up the coals, hold them in their hands, and just remarkable things like that.
I think that the mind does it, but the subtle energy that Bill Tiller talks about is actually a whole set of forces that has been called prana, chi, the life force.
It's been seen and observed for hundreds of years and reported by different scientists when they see different aspects of this force.
And it really does alter the standard known laws of physics when this stuff is present.
Well, when Professor Teller was on, he is just a wonderful individual, but he would launch into the mathematical, you know, the mathematical explanation, which I'm very grateful for, but don't begin to understand, of the physics involved in what we're talking about right here.
Anna, can you reduce it to something other than numbers, some way of our understanding how this can be done?
We're just at the beginning of understanding this stuff, so we don't really have a well-developed theory yet.
So I'll try to give, first of all, I mean, some of the ideas, the most important idea that Bill has presented that I think is really helpful, he calls it, he involves the words gauge and things like that,
but basically it's that when the subtle energy builds up to a certain level, the laws of electromagnetism start to become altered and magnetic monopoles become possible and so that the basic Maxwell's equations become modified.
That's part of it.
The other part of it is that when this happens, when this charge of prana, if you want to call it, charge of subtle energy begins to build up, it couples in with the mind.
When you form a thought in your mind, there's actually sort of a three-dimensional energy pattern in your mind that you're kind of holding there.
And the way I think about it, the part of the theory that I've been developing, is that that pattern really is resonating with the distant matter of the universe.
Is that energy that you just spoke about, the source of the energy, do you think, that is then directed by consciousness and forms this field that protects the feet or the hands or whatever?
Let me, if I can give you about a paragraph answer with No math, okay?
What I believe happens is that in our sort of normal physical universe, when the laws are acting the way they're supposed to by our science classes, we're in what Bill Tiller calls a U1 universe.
But what he really means, what I think that means is that it's almost as though there are sort of the standard universe that exists here when consciousness is not playing apart.
And there the physical laws pretty much act the way the textbooks say they do.
But in my model, there are other parallel systems, parallel universes, which are kind of very near ours, that have slightly different frequencies.
They're synchronized internally to their own beat, if you like, because it's not the same frequency as ours, just like a strobe light flashing on a fan, we don't see them.
The fan blades disappear if the flash is not synchronized with the fan.
While things in our universe, our standard universe, things are synchronized.
So we see the book, we see the computer, et cetera, because those things that are in our universe are synchronized.
And so we say that's real, that's matter.
There can be other parallel systems at slightly different frequencies.
They would be right here, coexisting with ours, but at different frequencies we would not see them.
They would be basically invisible to us.
And so as we sit in this sort of synchronized universe, we say that's everything that there is, and our physics textbooks describe how that works.
But if we can start to alter our frequencies to start to couple in these nearby parallel systems, we can start to get different physics.
They sit in front of computer monitors that have a certain refresh rate.
And they spend hours and hours and hours in front of computer monitors, and their brains begin to adjust to that refresh rate in some way, a different vibrational state, 60 hertz, 50 hertz, whatever it is the refresh rate happens to be.
And then I've had these reports after people spending long periods of time in front of computer screens, suddenly seeing things that, frankly, are kind of paranormal.
Call them shadow people, little things that flit and move in ways as though, you know, sort of like they're half there and half Not there.
I wonder if people are able to adjust themselves to a different state with something as simple as a computer screen.
Yeah, I have friends who also have seen on the computer, they will sometimes, and these are people who are sort of psychically more open anyway, so they have, but I have one friend who is very gifted, and occasionally he's seen sort of these etheric snakes swimming through the air.
Well, the Hopi prophecy, the one that is well known, it has many prophecies about our present time that we're living in now in terms of predictions that have come true.
But there's a timeline there, a timeline for the evolution of the Hopi people and also of the white man, the Western man in America.
And there's two horizontal timelines.
There are several events that are noted on that timeline that are supposed to be by the Hopi interpretation, World War I, World War II, and the present day.
And there are also two vertical lines that are opportunities to connect the wisdom of the Hopi with the Western culture.
They depict the Western man as being someone with his head and his body separated, which to them means that we're not really in tune with our spiritual wisdom.
We're not listening to that side of our wisdom.
And their prophecy predicts World War I, World War II, there was a time just before that, there's an opportunity to make a connection with the Hopi wisdom and sort of bring in some of that spiritual understanding into Western culture.
And we did not take advantage of that.
In the present day, at the millennium here, there's also an opportunity to do that.
If we don't do that according to their prophecy, there's a time of great destruction ahead of us.
And, you know, I think that we have this amazing technological power we have developed here in the West, but if we don't have some kind of spiritual wisdom or a larger worldview to direct how we use that power, to use it wisely, then we will misuse it and it becomes a weapon that we use upon ourselves.
Well, as you look around you at the world right now and observe the news and the behavior of human beings worldwide, are you hopeful or somewhat concerned?
And there are supposedly a couple of reports by what people call from the Pentagon and also the British government that predict that that may come to catastrophic levels within a very few years.
And the ocean currents like the Gulf Stream are also apparently slowing down.
And, you know, the first thing I wondered was, why would you get an oil company executive to write the truth about what's going on with the climate in the first place.
But that issue aside, the fact that he was leaving for having modified them, meaning the president is given information that provides him with plausible deniability.
Yes, and if you look at the North and South Pole and you look at pictures 10 years ago and pictures today and you don't go, oh my God, then you're blind.
Yeah, and there are all kinds of reports of technologies available that could be exploited that would allow us to cut down enormously on the use of oil.
And those technologies are not being followed.
They're not being developed.
They're probably being suppressed, in fact.
And, you know, it may be too late to implement something like that, but no one's trying.
So the hopie would seem to indicate that within the next decade or so, or your belief that it's within the next decade or so, something rather major is going to occur.
And to me, what the science of the paranormal is allowing us to do is introduce some of this spiritual wisdom into Western culture.
What I'm, I mean, obviously you can come from different directions at this problem, but to a very large degree, Western culture is a scientific culture.
We kind of worship science.
Science tells us answers to our questions like how old the universe is and how man came to be and things like that.
So one way of trying, of addressing this issue of spirituality is to point out that Western science is missing some really important things.
And if we start to introduce the truths that come from studying paranormal phenomena, it will modify science and it'll help us to understand that the spirit and the soul and the power of consciousness and the power of love and all these things that are kind of mushy that we Westerners don't like to think about very much, but they're real.
Yeah, I know we roll our eyes a lot on this thing.
Let me ask you a couple things.
Do you firmly believe in this expanding new field of consciousness?
Do you believe, for example, that we can affect plants and animals and even human behavior with directed willpower, consciousness, you know, directing something to happen, that one mind or many minds can do that.
Well, my book, The Synchronized Universe, most of the book is about the evidence for exactly that.
There's about the 12 chapters, each of which goes into a specific phenomenon.
The first one's remote viewing, then one on ESP, one on PK.
The fourth one is the Baxter effect, which is about plant communication and cell-to-cell communication.
And absolutely.
You know, when Cleve Baxter hooked his first plant up to a lie detector, a polygraph, and he gave it a drink of water and he was watching how the trace was behaving.
And then he thought, what would happen if I burned one of its leaves?
And the moment he formed that thought in his mind, the trace went crazy.
The plant was psychic.
The plant knew exactly that it was in danger.
And that began 20 or 30 years of research by many people to show that, yes, plants are psychic, dogs and cats, animals are psychic.
And even cells, individual cells, people have taken cells from the saliva of the mouth and put it in a test tube and measured the voltage on it.
And then you go 10, 20, even 100 miles away.
And when you have a strong emotional experience, the cells back in the test tube give off a voltage pulse.
What's so strange about this form of communication is that it penetrates all barriers, all types of shielding.
It does not weaken with distance.
It can travel.
And I'm going to read a quick little quote here from Robert John, who's a former head of the engineering department at Princeton, runs the Pear Lab along with Brenda Dunn at Princeton that has been one of the pioneering labs in doing research in this area.
And his conclusion is all forces known to physics, like gravity for example, diminish with distance.
And no forces in physics operate freely across time, like this, meaning the paranormal.
It's as if consciousness is somehow able to direct its influence directly across space and time.
And I did these experiments with the weather systems.
I'm sure you've heard about that.
Others have done many other experiments.
All of them really do seem to prove that this whole phenomena is real.
And here's something, some bottom-line thing that I wonder, Doctor.
If the Earth is facing some sort of catastrophic future, not that I think we can do it, but if we could get most of the population of the world aware of this power and this ability, and if the world made a determined effort to avoid an otherwise inevitable catastrophe, whether a world's conscious effort could stop it.
I think that is part of the opportunity of this new science, that we're learning the power of the mind.
One of my chapters is about collective consciousness.
And of course, I'm sure you're aware of these experiments where many people are thinking about the same thing at the same time.
And when they do these random event generators that kind of respond to psychic powers, and they measure the quantum noise at different places around the world.
And every one of them is affected.
And the quantum noise is reduced.
And so when many people begin focusing their minds on the same thought, it affects the physics.
It actually changes the physics away from the standard physics.
In a way we don't really totally understand, but it's a definite effect that occurs there.
And one of the things that Bill Tiller is talking about that's important is that as we continue to do that, we can actually sort of charge the Earth up with, if you like, subtle energy, prana, and that actually then increases the coupling.
So the more we do it, the more effect we have and the more power, the more control we have to change things.
Well, you mentioned in tune with the Earth, and that would seem to be in tune with what Native Americans think and the way they look at our relationship to the Earth.
Could it be that the Native Americans have it a little bit closer than we do?
you were surprised you didn't have to go into a TV.
Look, I'm with you all the way.
I think that, well, first of all, let's go back to Dr. Tiller for a moment.
His experiments are incredibly important, and I told him so when we did the program.
In terms of trying to move all of this from where it is into the hardcore scientific literature, it seems to me what Professor Tiller's doing is terribly important, and we need to get it into science or whatever.
Nature, I don't know, some sort of publication.
It needs to get into mainstream science, right?
Yes.
do you see any way to get that done Well, I think it's difficult.
I mean, one of the things I talk about in my book is just this whole problem of that the mainstream science has a filter, and they don't allow things in that violate their paradigm.
So it's hard for the mainstream scientists to even find out that this stuff exists.
Well, the appeal I was making to Dr. Tiller is the same one I'll make to you, and that is I could understand if we were submitting, I don't know, sort of foggy evidence or something, but it seems to me that Dr. Tiller's controlled experiments demand attention from the regular scientific community.
I mean, when something is repeatable and can be tested again and again and again, then it demands, intellectual honesty demands they look at it.
The first step, which he's already pursuing and other people are too, there are two or three organizations that act as kind of intermediaries, that kind of work at the boundaries.
The Society for Scientific Exploration is one, and one is called iCEM, which is the International Society for the Study of Subtle Energy Medicine.
And that's actually, the meeting is occurring about a week and a half in Colorado here.
He'll be speaking, I'll be speaking, Gary Schwartz will be speaking.
So those are kind of places where they're professional societies, but they're more open-minded.
And that, you know, there are journals, and so other scientists that are prompted can look in those journals and see what is going on.
But there's a translation problem there, and there's a belief problem.
And breaking through that barrier is tricky.
I'm not sure how to do it quickly unless there's some experiment or something very dramatic that calls attention to it.
One of the things that I have noticed from, I've just read almost everything that I could lay my hands on for the last 150 years on different subjects that relate to this stuff.
And what Bill Tiller is discovering is very closely connected with what Wilhelm Reich discovered, the orgone.
People have different names for this stuff, the subtle energy, but it has very similar behavior.
The type of coupling that Bill Tiller discovers in his laboratories is kind of similar to what Reich found, not as quantified, but in terms of how it builds up, how it kind of takes over the whole laboratory, begins changing the physics in the vicinity.
And the same subject has been studied by von Reichenbach, who was a German chemist back in the 1850s, who had sensitive looking at some of these things with their eyes after having a couple hours of dark adaptation.
And they could see the light coming from the lenergy and describing how it glows.
And this is really valuable treasure trolls of information from some of these sources.
Well, remote viewing, even the very first, well, first of all, I took about three courses at Farsight in Atlanta with Courtney Brown.
And even in my, and I think one reason I was attracted to doing remote viewing in this way is that I don't feel that I am very psychic.
I feel like I'm an average person.
My left brain is in there interfering way too much.
But remote viewing seemed like there's a protocol there that kind of keeps your left brain busy and hopefully would just be able to sort of keep it so busy that it would not interfere at all and you'd have the best chance to have a psychic experience.
So that's why I did it.
And even in the first viewing, I was coming up with things that were definitely on target.
So you try to be very aware of whatever feels like imagination.
It's very vague for most of us who aren't trained, but we try to grab all those vague ideas and put them down.
And then the next step is there's a categorization by what smells, what scents, what colors, etc.
And then the third part of it is now draw a sketch.
And in a sketch, you know, again, you're drawing blind.
You just try to whatever seems to come onto the paper.
I will just usually try to just make little dots and see what the dots form into.
In my case, the dots formed into two or three large mountains in the background and a dark locomotive train moving from left to right at high speed with a trail of black smoke coming out of the chimney of the train.
And the target was a mountain range in the background and these two black jets moving from left to right at high speed with their exhaust coming out the back.
I've got to give you credit for actually going out and experiencing this.
I've had a lot of scientists on the show, Doctor, and I talk to them about remote viewing and they kind of go, you know, or just absolutely just dismiss it.
But at least in your case, you had the cohenies to get out there and find out if it was true or not.
At that point, when you saw that, were you shocked at what you had done?
You're kind of becoming aware of some other part of your sensory apparatus that normally is dormant for most of us.
There's a realization that, hey, this stuff works, you know.
And I was far from perfect.
I mean, probably half of my sessions, my conscious mind would interfere too much.
I would have to analyze.
The first little clue would send me off on some tangent of trying to analyze.
Once you do that, you're lost.
But, you know, in 20 or 30 or 40%, I mean, I would be able to, well, first of all, even in the bad ones, I could see afterwards what I was picking up and how I was misinterpreting it.
But in the good ones, you feel like you're there.
And one of them that I describe in the book is the destruction of Pompeii.
And what I saw, what I drew in my sketches, I saw a Roman-style house.
I just sketched that as my first sketch.
My final sketch were Roman soldiers frantically constructing a barricade, while in the distance was a mountain, dark smoke, and a light, and they were afraid of something that was approaching them, and they were trying to protect themselves from that.
Yeah, you know, the Princeton Paralab folks have done studies on remote viewing, and they find, you know, their data is like 5 billion to 1 odds against chance.
That must be quite an epiphany when you go from a scientific, straight-on view, and then you actually experience something as you did, giving you credit for that.
What an incredible epiphany it must be for you.
I mean, gee, you go, everything I've learned all these years at MIT in Princeton, and narrow a word about anything like this.
Well, you know, I have to say I was prepared for it because everything that I've done has been sort of a mixture of a lot of research in the books and the literature and then trying to get the experience to kind of balance it out.
So intellectually, I was prepared at that point.
I already knew the paradigm was badly broken by that point.
First of all, let me say that in the book, as I mentioned, there are like 12 chapters, and each one of them is like the best evidence for these different phenomena.
And what I think that for some, what I'm hoping is that maybe for scientists, if they could be exposed to this evidence, there's like 400 references, 140 diagrams and things.
And if people understood how much is out there, how much evidence is out there, it would wake them up.
Well, coming up, preparing for Y2K, we listened to your show, and a lot of us were very concerned.
And so a bunch of my friends and I bought a farm in West Virginia so we could get away from the D.C. area.
But my friends, because a lot of them have UFO experiences and they are sensitive to these things, the farm they bought was the most haunted farm anyone has ever seen.
It was built on Indian burial ground.
There were three Indian graves that were discovered there.
Really?
A 200-year-old house.
There were at least five entities that were there.
I'm not all that sensitive, but there were a couple of places where you would just turn icy cold.
You could feel these things.
I've never seen a ghost, but you could feel the cold from them.
If you go outside the house at night and take flash photographs, you get some strange things.
What happens is that orbs are real, and I was slow in believing that.
Well, my friends were getting pictures of orbs for about a year before I began to believe it because I figured, well, gee, it could be moisture, it could be bugs, all kinds of things.
One of my friends, who was very down-to-earth, very grounded, had flashed his camera but had looked not through the viewfinder, but just with his eyes above the camera out at the scene.
And so you're telling me your friend didn't watch the camera, didn't watch the view, took the picture and watched outside and actually saw with his own eyes what turned up on the photograph?
I've been to a graveyard with if you have these good powerful flashes, they're handheld strobes that aren't necessarily attached to cameras, or maybe they can be attached, but you can operate independently.
And I have flashed this thing in a graveyard, and you will see every so often you'll see an orb that will show up just in that instant while the light is flashing.
And the next time you flash it, it may be somewhere else.
In one of these expeditions, a bunch of us were trying to get some good orb photographs, and we had all kinds of strobe cameras and everything else.
And we were able to see them like this, but not very good pictures.
But about three days later, one of the people in the group, when the pictures came back, there was this extraordinary daytime photograph of a three-foot diameter orb in the picture.
And she didn't know where this had come from.
Her 12-year-old daughter was walking back to the cabin in late afternoon and saw this thing hovering in front of the cabin.
And she said, I thought it wanted me to take its picture.
So she did, and then it moved away.
And then she forgot about this incident until three days later when the pictures came back.
It's an amazing picture because the orb is semi-transparent.
You can see the pillars of the cabin through the orb.
It is reflecting the sky above, the ground below.
it's an amazing picture that just is pretty darn convincing.
We actually had to ask our audience to stop sending in orb pictures.
I'm serious.
Because they're so common, they're virtually everywhere.
We just got too many of them.
It was like, and I still don't know about orbs.
I'm not convinced, but what you have just told me, I guarantee you, I'm going to experiment with and see if I can see one.
And so everybody else, give that a try, too.
You're suggesting flashing an external flash as powerful as possible and not looking through the camera, but instead looking at what that flash actually lights up.
Now, what is your theory, if you have one, about why flashes are illuminating what some people think are, you know, souls.
I think there's a variety of different kinds of experiences, like in out-of-body experiences, for example.
Keith Harari was doing an out-of-body experiment trying to visit his doctor's office.
While he was doing it, his doctor, who did not know this was happening, just happened to see this small little reddish orb flitting around in the office.
Really?
There's an experiment that I mentioned on the website and in the book, very important one that Carlos Osis, a scientist, conducted, where somebody was trying to remote view a target, and Osis put around the target various kinds of sensors.
And he discovered that when the remote viewer was reviewing the target, the sensors were being set off.
There was some kind of energy form that was a few inches to half a foot or so in diameter that was apparently present near the target while the remote viewing was occurring.
So probably electromagnetic and acoustic, probably that there's a variety of different types of sensors that are all excited to some extent when these orbs are present.
And if you think about what ghost hunters use when they're hunting in houses, it's often the same type of thing.
They often, I know a ghost hunter in Leesburg, Virginia, who has just been to hundreds of houses there.
And it's a very haunted, old, you know, historic town.
Well, I don't think we, I don't really claim to have the final answer.
And also, I don't think we really quite know what a soul is anyway.
We have some general idea that it is the consciousness of the person or something, some part of the identity.
It's an energy form of some kind that continues when the body dies, and it probably also is part of what goes out-of-body during out-of-body experiences or some types of remote-viewing experiences.
Yeah, I knew a Brazilian UFO investigator, and he calls them Kaneplas, and they were quite familiar with them down in Brazil, and they view them kind of like Kaneplas means a camera lens.
What are the odds if you were to spend, I don't know a few hours experimenting with this that you wouldn't be disappointed that you would get to visually see an orb, actually see one?
I mean, if you go to a rich area where there's lots of hauntings, I think they're pretty good odds.
I mean, the two areas that I'm familiar with, that haunted farmhouse and this cemetery, we did not spend more than an hour or two, and then you'll see an orb.
I know people who I belong to a little ghost hunting group up in Denver, and they go out to cemeteries, and some of the people in the group are quite gifted at kind of attracting the ghosts.
It was a portion of his work which included a two-way conversation with somebody on the other side who was actually making suggestions about how to improve the circuitry so that his voice might be better heard, making actual electronic circuitry modification suggestions.
It really has always been in a gray box, but how exciting is it?
The concept of using a flash, but not as you would use it with a camera, but instead looking just out at the flash itself and looking for the orb to get an actual visual sighting of what we capture on film but don't believe.
Now, how do you know, of course you don't, do you wonder at all, Doctor, and only you can answer this, if this effect was coming as an expectation generated by your brain, or it was so external and so unmistakable that it had to have been external?
Two or three of the feelings that happened were unusual.
Also, Michael read to me the testimony of people who have received this type of energy, and the symptoms they were describing were the same as what I described.
The quietness and the prickly and several different things.
Well, I describe in the book my first encounter with a healer, and this was maybe 15 years ago.
It's funny how our life has a pattern and a path to it.
And it just so happens that when I was first beginning to explore this stuff back in the mid-80s, I was introduced to a healer who was actually world famous.
A doctor I knew introduced me to him.
His name is Dmicek Virkas, who lives in Bethesda, Maryland.
He's a Polish immigrant who had been one of three healers assigned to work alongside doctors in hospitals in Poland.
And he did both diagnosis and healing.
And so I was trying to understand how he did what he did.
And he was describing subtle energies and auras and stuff like that, which to me was just like talking about Mars or something.
It was totally foreign.
But he said, well, stand up, and let me just show you.
And I was in my typical state at the end of the day, having had six cups of coffee and being very left-brained and kind of hyper and everything.
And I'm standing up, and he's walking behind me, and he's breathing kind of funny.
He's like a very slow intake and a couple of sharp exhalations.
And he's walking three or four feet away, and he's walking very, very slowly.
I'm just very pessimistic, you know, and thinking like you do, you know, well, even if it works for some people, it's not going to work for me, you know.
And within about five minutes, I noticed that I was not only relaxing, but also feeling really happy.
And within about 15 minutes, I felt so exuberant and so full of energy and vitality, I almost looked like I could fly.
There's just this amazing change in my physiology from whatever he was doing.
But I think the best cases, and there's been a lot of them done, and I talk about some of them in the book, are the remote healing where there are either non-human subjects who don't know what to expect, or in the good randomized studies where they're humans, but they don't know what's being done to them.
So again, the placebo is kind of canceled out there.
Boy, I'll tell you, until I understood the possible, or even now I think probable power of consciousness, doctor, I really thought this healing stuff was a bunch of bunk, honestly.
But you know, it explains it.
I mean, if there can be this effect that we're talking about, it's not placebo, it's real, and we're getting enough proof now that it's real from the hardcore scientific community, then it backs it up.
I mean, it does say, well, we can make these kinds of changes.
How much have you observed in terms of, there's been a lot of proof offered out there of, you know, people with, well, I don't know, cancers and x-rays both before and after, that kind of thing.
Have you looked into all of that enough so that you say, oh, yeah, it's real?
I've read enough of the reports in the literature, scientific literature, from people who study these things to be convinced that there are people who really can do this and that there's a real effect going on there.
And certainly I would also, if I were sick, probably look to...
And she went down there to because of John of God.
And I don't know, you know, I guess I've heard stories of healings and such, but I just thought I'd let you know that's how close to my family this John of God thing is.
There are about 3,000 people every day that he treats.
They line up outside this little casa, this little building or set of buildings in his town 100 miles from Brasilia.
And about 3,000 people go through there every day.
And a lot of them, a large number, are healed or claim that they're healed.
And he charges nothing.
There's a variety of summer jet setters from Europe and from America.
Shortly McLean went there when she had cancer and he supposedly cured her.
There are peasants from Brazil who walk there or they take the buses there.
And there's a book by a man named Pellegrino Estrich that is probably one of the best book in English about the cases that he's very, very famous, of course, in Brazil.
And he would even say that he's not doing it, that his physical body is there, but there are these entities which he describes, he knows who they are, and he'll give them names.
Basically, they are doctors or other very enlightened people who are dead.
And he describes, gives the names of them who are these various entities, and they take over his body during these operations.
So it's all kind of unseen, paranormal-type forces that are really involved in this.
And he doesn't even know what he's done when it's over.
I have not looked into the video evidence very thoroughly.
I know that in Brazil, before John of God appeared on the scene, there was another Brazilian healer named Arrigo, Jose Arigo, who was capable of many of the same things.
Music I must say, for example, when I first heard about my own sister going down to be near this John of God, you know, my eyebrows raised a little bit.
You know, talking to other family members, we go, wow, you know, ha.
But there might be something to it.
In other words, there may be a connection, apparently is a connection, to this business of consciousness.
And it's becoming more and more obvious to me that it's absolutely real, that everything about this is absolutely real.
Tell you what, we're going to call our guest back right now.
His phone has been resting because it's one of those portable phones.
Well, as far as Carilian photography goes, there was a the Russians, of course, developed this, and it's a way of applying some high frequency, high voltages, high frequency voltages over the skin.
And what they find is that there are patterns of light that get emitted, and you can photograph these patterns of light, and they believe that they are basically kind of exciting the subtle energy field, the auras and the chakras around the body and the acupuncture points, I guess specifically.
And they've developed ways of analyzing diseases by taking a picture of, say, a person's abdomen or their arm, and they will be able to see the acupoints that will show up on the photography about the colors and the brightnesses they can tell when they make predictions about what organs are having certain problems.
So it's a pretty well-developed technique in Russia.
This stuff became well known in America, I guess, in the very early 70s.
There are people in the U.S. who have claimed that it's just moisture that's causing these effects on the film, and there's nothing really very unusual about it.
And you take a picture of a nickel, and it'll also show up on curling photography and things like that.
And also, one of the, there was one set of whole body curlions.
There's a technique for taking the whole body as a curlion photograph.
And I've seen a couple of those.
And there's one remarkable picture where the lady is going out of body while the curlion photograph is being made.
And it actually shows the lights from her chakras and part of her aura kind of displaced off to the side, away from her physical body.
It's just very remarkable.
So I think there's something very real to it.
I think in America we're probably kind of behind the curve as far as understanding the technology as well as the Russians do.
But I think there's something real to it.
As far as Yogananda goes, he came from India to the West because he and his teachers believed that we in the West, it was time to reunite this Eastern wisdom that they have with the Western technology, basically.
And that's really what he was about.
And so it really fits in very well with the whole Hopi prophecy idea.
And I think it's very true.
And it meshes very well with what we're talking about tonight.
My question for your guest is about those miracle healings.
Could there be some kind of sleight of hand going on out there?
Because there's some really talented magicians I've seen on TV do some pretty amazing things, like pull heads off chickens, put it back on, and make it live, you know?
This guy's right on the money, and I guess I would ask the same question.
Unfortunately, Dr. Swanson, we live in a day and age where with film and digitizing and computers, oh, God, anything's possible now.
So actual physical evidence of the kind of thing we're talking about, or video evidence of the kind of thing we're talking about is going to always be suspect.
Yeah, unless you go down there yourself, in terms of John of God or which...
Yeah.
Well, you're right.
I mean, it's always, unless you get personally involved and take your own equipment, and then when you come back, then at least you become convinced, but show it to somebody else and they have the same questions.
So it's a good question.
I think for me, what is persuasive at least is that word of mouth among the peasants and the farmers in Brazil, they would very quickly tell their neighbors if he was faking it because they wouldn't be healed.
I would think you would get different results depending on the relative strength of the person holding the supplement and the person pushing down on the arm.
I'm familiar with this method, and I understand, I mean, I share your concerns and the same questions that first occurred to me.
I recently met a kinesiologist who's very, very, very good.
I mean, I think there's some skill, some training involved with learning how to push down and how to detect when there's a real weakening and when there's not.
Of course, the theory is that, and this all goes back to the subconscious mind, that somehow the subconscious mind knows these things even when the conscious mind does not.
And therefore the weakening is occurring at the subconscious level.
And somehow, psychically, the subconscious is able to connect in with these different materials and recognize which ones are good and which ones are not.
I've had that a couple times with me, and I think that there's something to it.
But again, I think you're right that there's a skill also to be able to detect when a real weakening is occurring.
And it's one of those areas.
It fits in with all the other topics we're talking about tonight.
It's the same type of thing.
It certainly goes against the conventional science.
Before I had considered this whole realm of consciousness and seen some of the supporting evidence, I don't know, Princeton, what they've done, that kind of thing, my own experiments, I just, there's not a chance in the world that I would have believed in any of what we're hearing about right now.
I'd have said, come on.
You know, the world is full of stuff, and that's stuff.
All right, West of the Rockies.
You're on the air with Dr. Swanson.
unidentified
Hello.
Yes, hi.
Hi.
I've been in communication with a Chinese medical doctor who has for several decades been effectively rejuvenating older humans by exposing them to the bioelectromagnetic fields of young wheat plants.
And he believes that the genetic information In the bioelectromagnetic fields of other species other than our own, actually activates our own silent genes and causes significant rejuvenation.
And he believes that psychic information is also transmitted between living beings by this biological EHF, also he calls it biomicrowave.
And his device somehow amplifies this ability of communication between the bioelectromagnetic fields that contain this information somehow.
And I was wondering, Dr. Swanson, it involves biophotons.
And I'm wondering if you can add anything to this.
I mean, it's amazing what he's doing, but it seems to really tie into the whole idea of physics explaining psychic information.
Well, I think I was going to say, I think that Gary Schwartz has been making some measurements.
They have a very dark chamber and a very sensitive photomultiplier tube so that you basically put a living thing in the chamber and there should be no light there unless it's emitting something.
So that's one way of doing it.
There's a famous experiment that was done by a Russian named Koznachayev.
He would take cells and he would poison them.
And in the next little glass container that was totally separate from the first one, he would only allow light to pass through.
And he found that when there was a quartz window, so that certain, it would allow certain frequencies to pass through, the ones in the separate protected container got the same effect.
they died the same way that the ones in the first container died, as though some kind of special light, which they call bio photons, are emitted and they transfer the same information through and cause damage in the second one.
There's been probably 30 years of work on biophotons.
And it's a whole important area that probably kind of couples in conventional physics with the unknown parts of biology because there's a coherency to these photons that we don't normally think about in our normal science.
Well, the only thing I know is quartz allows UV to go through when the normal glass does not.
So it's the higher frequencies that probably are affecting the cells.
But I don't know beyond that what...
Yeah, except that probably there's something very special about this light.
It's not just UV light.
It is light that is encoded.
It's light that is where the photons are coupled together.
They have a coherency about them so that they're communicating something very specific that normally we don't think about light being able to communicate.
Well, it would be a first step to be able to measure, or at least start to measure, the actual communication medium and understand where that is if it can be done.
I mean, I guess it's, again, here we go toward the quantum world, right?
I'm really, I think, trying to talk to those skeptics and the left-brained people out there who, if they're open-minded enough to ask the question and to listen, there's a huge amount of data.
And try to put it in a very user-friendly, readable, fun kind of way with lots of pictures and diagrams and stuff, but also with references to the real evidence, 400 references and stuff, so that anybody who really wants To track this down and convince themselves that this is real, it's a good place to go to get the information.
All right, well, here's a left-brained response for you from Marty in San Rafael, California.
And he says, Hey, James Randy has pointed out for years that scientists, I would mean you, are among the easiest to fool precisely because they think they can't be.
If he believes, work out a controlled test with Randy, win the million-dollar prize, show us the claimed controlled evidence.
Number one, I have some friends who took the remote viewing courses, and they were very talented, much better than I was, and they actually tried to take Randy up on that prize offer.
And they found that when they contacted him and began trying to set up the conditions for the experiment, he began shifting the conditions.
And they never were able to work out anything that was at all reasonable.
Mostly, Randy would have his own judges, basically, to judge the results.
And a variety of different conditions.
The whole thing began to change, including the size of the prize.
I wanted to ask you, do you think that there is some paranormal or spiritual rule that would prevent you from completely removing all doubt, let's say, from the most skeptical people by, for instance, taking maybe 10 or 20 terminally ill patients from the Mayo Clinic that have been totally checked out.
They have a disease that cannot be cured down to Brazil with cameras, not like you'd see the press storming this man, but in a very proper way, videotaping and keeping accurate records of every step of the way,
and then seeing them come back into this country, going back through CAT scans, MRIs, and blood tests, and absolutely proving that it could never happen unless there really is something that is occurring that just defies what all the skeptics say.
I think someone may have to put up some money to fund that experiment, but it's a wonderful idea, and I'd love to see it, too.
unidentified
But do you think there's any rule that prevents us from absolutely having that kind of proof that maybe it has to rely a little on faith, that we can't prove to the whole world, sort of like UFOs not landing during this?
I think what's pretty amazing to me, I think that even if you did that experiment and they all came back totally healed, a lot of skeptics would not change their mind.
I mean, if there was something, for example, on the level of 60 Minutes or, you know, some program like that, and they took 10 people down there and they came back, CAT scanned, declared, cured, boy, I'll tell you, that would rip a hole in the forest, Doctor.
Yeah, I was there for three weeks and really wanted to believe everything.
And I believe that if you're not open, that things that may possibly happen won't happen if you're not open.
So I really remained open.
But I also, you know, asked people about their experiences, again, with a very open mind.
And there are so many things that sound great that have fallen through.
Every case of somebody saying that they were actually healed by something, you know, I'd get all excited and then they'd come back and say, well, you know, I did just get done with a bout of chemotherapy before I came here.
Hello?
Yeah, we're still here.
I heard a click.
Yeah, so did I. Anyway, and as far as the money, not asking for money, that was also very exciting to me.
And I thought, well, he's got to be for real.
But it turns out, and this is, again, from speaking to a lot of people, that the tour guides tell Jao, John of God, who in their group are chiropractors or other health care practitioners.
And then Jow on the side approaches them and says, you know, you're a very special healer.
We have this special quartz crystal for, you know, $6,000 that would really help you in your healing practice.
Well, it turns out that the book by Pellegrino Estrich, which again was the first thing I read that you referred to, Dr. Swanson, is very exciting, and there are what seem like very solid sort of testimonials.
But, you know, even when you get there, when you speak to people who've been around there, who are kind of part of the community, they say, oh, well, that book grossly overstates what seem to be successes.
And, you know, very few people really have anything happen.
And I thought, well, gee, if I see somebody's eyeball being scraped with a rusty knife and they don't get sick, I'll start to go, gee, there's got to be something to it.
Not once did any, they have two types of healings.
One is where you just sort of get healed by being in his presence and other are the physical, but not one person, not once did I see somebody get cut into, it wasn't offered, and yet their videos are, they're pushing it saying, you know, look what we've done with people, but nobody.
So, I mean, are you working up to you came to the conclusion that it was all hoo-eye?
unidentified
I'm still trying to talk myself into that there's something I missed, but, you know, and I believe that it can happen, that people can do this, but I don't think he's doing it.
What I was going to say is that my understanding is that they used to do a lot more of these sort of public demonstrations, and they've kind of gone behind the scenes now because of legal problems.
All right, we're kind of short on time, so lay it on us.
unidentified
It was a seance, and in the seance, these ascended masters materialized, and there were objects came into the room, and at the end of the seance, the medium came out, and all these objects came out of his eyes and his mouth.
And we were allowed to, you know, check out the circumstance and make sure that there was no fakery or anything like that.
I do come from somewhat of a background of scientific investigation in paranormal phenomena.
And what I felt, and just from that, you know, I think that there was something unusual that took place.
One thing that I mentioned in the introduction to my book is that we're kind of at the beginning of a whole new, powerful scientific revolution.
And just if you go back to what happened when electricity was discovered, the same type of thing happened.
You had anecdotal evidence.
People experienced things.
You had Ben Franklin and his kite.
Someone walks across a carpet and gets a shock, and they say, okay, there's something here.
But then trying to get from that, from those anecdotal examples, to a real science with equations and well demonstrated experiments is a long process.
And so we have a variety of different kinds of evidence here.
So the John of God or the other healers, everyone is to be looked at and considered.
But at some point, the science has to get hard, like in the Princeton experiments, where you have good statistics that can really prove, yeah, your nay, these are real, they're repeatable.
I had a very interesting experience, and it demonstrates that it can be seen.
My father in the early 80s was going in for an operation on his spleen, and he called me up, and it could have been life-threatening.
And he wanted to have a last talk with me, just in case.
And I went to call down after his operation should have been performed.
He went over to Las Vegas from St. George, Utah, which is the same.
Anyhow, he was at home in St. George, and he was supposed to be in Las Vegas a day after his operation.
And he answered the phone.
And I finally drug out of him that he had gone to see this guy.
And the way they discovered this was when he was in Las Vegas, they took the final operation x-rays, and they matched it up with their prior x-rays, and there was nothing on the spleen that matched, and they thought they had a different patient.
And it took some time of straightening out, and finally one lady got involved, and she was looking at trying to figure out why the name was the same.
It was right on the x-ray, on both x-rays, the same name.
And they couldn't justify how this thing had completely changed in the spleen area.
And so one lady finally said, wait a minute, you're not from St. George, Utah, are you?
And he says, yes.
And he says, you didn't go happen to see a doctor.