Bill Sweet and Art Bell explore Spindrift Research’s 1969–1993 experiments, where Bruce (65) and John Klingbile (35) used Apple II computers and random event generators to test prayer’s effects—stressed soybean seeds healed, mold growth altered by intent. Their suicides (May 7–12, 1993) amid controversy over "goal-directed" vs. "non-goal" prayer left unanswered questions about backlash from religious groups, skeptics, or even unintended cosmic forces. Princeton’s Roger Nelson later detected similar anomalies tied to global events like 9/11, reinforcing the idea that consciousness may shape reality, but risks—from flooding in Texas to mass misuse—demand caution. [Automatically generated summary]
Every single one of them covered like a blanket by this program, post-to-post, AMI Mark Bell.
An honor and privilege to be escorting you through the weekend.
And man, it ain't over yet, folks.
What a show I've got for you tonight.
It's going to be mind-boggling, and I'll tell you all about it in a moment.
The webcam shop tonight is a little different.
We have one of our four cats, Abby, our oldest one.
He's 15 now, as a matter of fact.
He's the one who actually had his own NDE.
You know, he stopped breathing and all the rest of it.
And the amazing vet brought him back to life.
It's a very long story.
But anyway, that photograph is of Abby who likes to sit in our laundry room.
This is his joy.
He sits in our laundry room and goes, ow, ow, and he likes to hear the echo off the walls.
Well, those are relatively small walls in the laundry room.
And so every now and then we take him out.
We have a racquetball, indoor racquetball court.
Hey, pretty nice, huh?
And that photograph is of my lovely bride, Ramona, and Abby.
Now, you see, when we take him out to the racquetball court, there, a cat who lives to hear his own little meow voice really can live.
I mean, there is an echo in there that won't quit, and he loves it.
He gets in there as it whacks its way off the walls in the racquetball court.
So that's what that picture is.
That's one of the times we took him in to let him hear his own voice times however many echoes you get in there, a lot of them.
All right, now, with respect to tonight's program, I'm really, really, really looking forward to this.
The book is a journey into prayer.
It's about some experiments that have to do with consciousness and prayer.
And it's not a religious thing, if that's what you're looking for.
I suppose there are aspects of it, but not really.
This is a book written by a fellow named Bill Sweet, who, by the way, is an amateur radio operator.
And so he's very pragmatic.
And he wrote about these two men, actually a father and a son, a Bruce and John Klingbile, father and son team.
And he wrote to me in his own handwriting, after their mysterious unexpected suicides between the 7th and 12th of May of 93, I, as then president of Spindrift, spent years haunted by their memories.
Alas, 12 years later, the Klingbile Spindrift story is now to be told.
A journey into prayer would come across to your listeners as a spiritual ex-file and a tale of the way the politics of prayer and parapsychology sometimes work.
I suggest reading the epilogue on page 235 first, and I will read that in the next hour, assigned Bill Sweet, KF9DK.
An extra class amateur operator, I might add.
And these two men ran consciousness experiments.
Perhaps one too many.
I don't know.
But this story is untold and absolutely and truly remarkable and goes hand in hand with the whole consciousness realm that we're examining.
You're well aware of the experiments I ran, so successful that I stopped them voluntarily and have not resumed them.
I am convinced beyond any shadow of any doubt that this whole power of consciousness thing slash prayer slash whatever this spiritual world is is absolutely real.
The power of prayer is real.
You know, it's proven.
Scientific double-blind tests have well proven it.
And if you did, then listen tonight to a really eerie story.
That's what's coming up in a moment.
No, let's do it now.
Get it out of the way.
The world news is never good.
Ruskin, Florida, a registered sex offender, has confessed to killing a 13-year-old girl who disappeared a week ago, saying he got into an argument with her and choked her to death in her home.
The sheriff said somebody, that would be David Anscott, 36, was charged with first-degree murder a day after investigators found Sarah Lund's partially clothed body in an abandoned pond, Hillsboro County Sheriff David G said.
So it seems as though there's no end to these horrible things of people, little girls, children being kidnapped and murdered.
This is why I hate reading the world news.
A woman who led an effort to help those ravaged by violence in Iraq fell victim to the war herself when a car bomb has killed her and two other people on Sunday.
Maria Ruznika, founder of the Campaign for Innocent Victims in Conflict, herself became one, died Saturday in the blast, which also killed an Iraqi and another foreigner.
Bringing their suitcases and personal views on the future of the church, the cardinals who will select the next pope settled in their rooms Sunday in the Vatican Hotel that is going to now be their home into the world's 1.1 billion Roman Catholics have got a new leader.
The conclave starts Monday after the 115 red-robed cardinals join a formal procession into the Sistine Chapel where efforts to maintain the secrecy of their deliberations now include installing jamming devices to foil sophisticated eavesdropping equipment.
Wow.
My personal view is that we're going to get another conservative pope.
Pope John Paul picked, hand-picked the cardinals, and they're rather conservative.
He made sure of that.
So my bets would go toward a German conservative pope.
Just a wild guess.
Iraqi security forces, backed by U.S. troops, had the town of Medane surrounded Sunday after reports of Sunni militant kidnappings of as many as 100 Shiite residents.
But apparently there were growing indications the incident had been grossly exaggerated, so not 100 kidnapped, yet they don't have a number for us now.
Here's a weird one.
A seven-story wave, that would be a rogue wave, damaged a cruise ship returning from the Bahamas over the weekend.
It smashed windows, flooded more than 60 cabins, injured four passengers.
The Norwegian Dawn was diverted from its route when the ship ran into rough weather.
On the way back to New York on Saturday, the 965-foot-long vessel docked in the Charleston harbor for repairs and departed for New York early Sunday after a Coast Guard inspection.
Was back in New York by noon on Monday.
Can you imagine that?
A seven-story high wave.
These rogue waves are more common than the world knows.
Satellites, as a matter of fact, did a recent confirmation of that fact, that these rogue waves are far more common.
And I think if you talk to people who have been in the Navy, they'll tell you it's true.
And sailors live in fear of these gigantic, sometimes 150-foot-high waves that seem to come out of nowhere for no particular reason.
Kaboom, even to a large cruise ship like that, potentially devastating.
So it broke windows, and a lot of people got water in their cabins, and I'm sure they were quite shocked.
Very shortly, we will begin open lines for the balance of this hour.
So if you have something you'd like to get on the air, something of intense interest to the audience, then you might want to start dialing now.
Indonesian scientists have placed 11 volcanoes under close watch after a series of powerful quakes awoke intense subterranean forces and increased the chances of a major eruption.
Well, that figures, huh?
In the Sumatra area, where, of course, now they've had two extremely major quakes, one with an associated tidal wave, tsunami, that killed, whoa, 125,000 or 30,000 people, a lot of people.
The fact that these volcanoes would be awakening is not a great surprise, now is it?
Tens of thousands of people have spent yet a third night in temporary camps after fleeing the slopes of Mount Talang on Sumatra Island, where hot ash has been raining down since Monday.
How'd you like to have that hot ash raining down on you?
On Wednesday, Krakatoa was put on alert status amid warnings of poisonous gas emissions.
A similar warning earlier issued on yet another island near the West Java city of Bandong, which will be next week hosting more than 50 heads of state, probably 50 very nervous heads of state.
As a matter of fact, Eugene Island.
Now this, I'm going to read you this story, but I don't frankly put much credence in it, but I'm open-minded.
And so I'll read it to you.
This is what's going around right now.
You can tell me whether you believe it or not.
I don't.
I'll give you what I feel might be the explanation for this, but I think the overall conclusion is way wrong.
Eugene Island is an underwater mountain located about 80 miles off the coast of Louisiana in the Gulf of Mexico.
In 1973, they struck oil.
An offshore platform, Eugene, 330 feet, was erected.
The field began production at 15,000 barrels a day, then gradually fell off, as is normal, to about 4,000 barrels a day in 1989.
Then, a surprise, it reversed itself and increased production to 13,000 barrels a day.
Probable reserves have been increased to 400 million barrels from 60 million.
The field appears to be filling from below.
And the crude is coming up today.
Well, it's from a geological age very different from the original crude, which leads to the speculation that the world has limitless Supplies of petroleum.
And it goes on.
This is some of the stuff that's running around the internet today, and I want to take issue with it.
I think what they claim here certainly is possible.
That is to say, that a field that began having only reserves of so much has somehow released an adjacent field, or perhaps one below, or whatever.
And this particular field is refilling on that basis.
But I don't think for one second that the world's oil reserves are replenishing themselves, that something deep within the earth is just throwing oil back up again.
I wish it were true.
I even hope it's true, but I don't think it's true.
And I don't think the average geologist in America or anywhere in the world believes it's true, but I do believe this story.
The first recorded sighting of earthquake lights dates back to 373 BC in Greece.
Have you heard of them?
Earthquake lights?
But stories have long been told of strange lights in the sky before, during, and after an earthquake.
Today, their existence is an accepted fact, although the mechanism that generates them is still very much a mystery.
The first known scientific investigation of earthquake lights took place in the 1930s, and in the 1960s, earthquake lights were well documented in a series of photographs taken in Japan.
So it's not just what people have seen, but it's also what they have photographed.
The lights are most evident in the middle of a quake.
People who have seen them sometimes describe them as searchlights, sometimes fireballs, sometimes lightning.
Other witnesses describe them as consisting of beams and columns of light, and still others report clouds that were illuminated during earthquakes or simply an eerie glow in the sky.
I would think when tectonic plates are rubbing against each other, the forces are so enormous that electromagnetic energy of some sort is probably generated.
Anytime you have that kind of friction, you're bound to be getting electromagnetic energy, wouldn't you think?
I think that it's something we all might watch for, those of us in earthquake zones, trying to have a camera ready.
Now, that's like saying, make sure when you see that UFO that you've got a camera.
I saw not one but two.
And by the time I got back, it had zoomed south like a bat out of hell.
So I tried in the second instance, but nobody's ever going to have a camera handy.
Although, with today's millions and millions of digital cameras out there, you may get lucky and you may get a photograph of these earthquake lights.
I'd love to see it, wouldn't you?
Just a quickie.
Questions that really, really need answers.
For example, who do you suppose was the first person to look at a cow and say to themselves, hey, I think I'll squeeze these dangly things here and drink whatever comes out?
Who was the first person to say, see that chicken there?
i'm going to eat the next thing that comes out of its backside uh...
Why is there a light in the fridge, but not in the freezer?
Now, I love that one.
Think about that.
Why in heaven's name do they put a light in the refrigerator, but not in the freezer?
If Jimmy cracks corn and no one cares, why is there a song about him?
Can a hearse carry a corpse drive in the carpool lane?
That's perhaps in poor taste, isn't it?
You have a hearse so you can get in the carpool lane.
Why do people point to their wrist when asking for the time, but don't point this one on the air.
Point to another area to find out where the bathroom is.
Oh, gee.
Questions that really need answers.
I have many more, and I'll dribble them in.
I liked the first one.
The first person will look at a calendar and say, I think I'll squeeze these dangly things here and drink whatever comes out.
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Hello.
unidentified
Good day, Art.
Good day.
I was calling about your cat's near-death experience.
I wanted to share my cat had died seven times.
I was introduced to this cat when I started working at a veterinary hospital, and he was a cat that someone had brought in to basically put down because he was wetting in certain spots of the house, and they were having difficulty in changing him.
Well, uh, he's got at least three to go, so good luck to him.
Cats really are odd creatures.
Uh, when our Abby became so ill that, um, it's a long story, but uh, he did, in fact, die on the table, and he was many weeks in getting better and many thousands of dollars, but uh it was worth it, and now he's a happy cat.
In fact, you can see him in the photograph on the webcam picture again tonight is of Ramona in the racquetball court with Abby, who now, at 15 years of age, still loves to hear the sound of his own meow, and he loves to hear it echo.
He's a cat who has become, in fact, entranced with the whole concept of his own little meow being echoed.
And so he practices hours per day.
He practices in the laundry room.
Every now and then we give him a treat, and we take him out to the racquetball court, and that's what the photograph is.
Abby exercising his lungs and joyously noting the reverberating sound that he creates off the walls.
It's kind of a joy to watch, and an amazing thing when you think about it, that a cat would have, what's the right way to put it, enough of the realization of his own existence to enjoy hearing his own voice echo off the walls.
Now, that's a kind of realization of self when you think about it, isn't it?
An understanding of your own existence.
In the nighttime, which is where we do our very best work, this is Coast to Coast AM.
I'm Mark Bell.
It's going to be a hell of a show tonight.
unidentified
The heart of the 8th century speed turned the dawn to me.
But you have to think it's me.
We had to get out before the magic got away.
Yellow brass fires start to burn.
And the warnings on them beer cans gonna be buried in them landfills.
No deposit, no sad zones, and no return.
Yeah, it's only gonna take about a minute or so to go back for the block sun up.
You're gonna have to turn your lights on just to see.
And them lights are gonna be neon saying, Fly our jets to paradise, And the whole damn world's gonna be made of styrene.
So listen to my brothers, When you hear the nightly sigh, And you see the waters flying through the great polluted sky.
There won't be no country music, There won't be no rock and roll, Cause when they take away our country, They'll take away our song.
Yeah.
To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell from East of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
From West of the Rockies, call ART at 800-618-8255.
International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country spread access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
It's a loop antenna that extends, I don't know, about 19 or 20 inches above the RV all the way around.
You know what I ought to do?
I'll tell you what I'll do at the top of the next hour, if I can find it.
I'll get the picture of what my RV looks like and I'll put it up for you.
You can see it for yourself.
It's really weird, and wherever we go, we get questions about it.
But it's an incredibly effective antenna, and you might do the same thing on a truck.
You certainly would be able to do the same thing on a truck.
And what it is, is an antenna that sticks up and goes all the way around.
I mean, there's nothing to match a lot of wire.
None of these little vertical antennas that everybody sees the truckers with for 10 meters or whatever are worth a hoot on the lower frequencies compared to an antenna like I'm going to show you.
I'm going to go ahead and get the picture and put it up on the webcam in a few minutes, top of the hour when I have a moment, and you can take a look at it.
So that's what I would recommend as optimal.
Second to that, of course, you can put up the typical whips or screwdrivers, so-called.
But I do favor what I've concocted, weird as it may be, and I will show it to you at the top of the hour.
Sir, you see, with China using as much oil as it is, that fact alone is driving up the price of oil.
Everything in the world is supply and demand.
If there's not much supply and a lot of demand, the price is going to go up.
And China has driven the price up.
So all the oil we want at a certain price.
And yes, that's going to be true absolutely for a while.
Don't worry.
You'll be able to get gas.
But the price for it is going to get higher and higher and higher as the world runs out of oil.
Easily obtainable, reasonable, cheap oil.
The rest of it is still there, but it's going to be the second half.
If we're at that center of the bell curve, second half is going to be very hard, very expensive to get, and everybody's going to feel that at the gas pump, and the entire economy is going to feel it, and already is doing so.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified
Hi.
Hello.
Hello.
Hello, Art.
I enjoy your program.
I have a comment, a question, and one thing.
I have a cat named Misha, and she likes to lick her reflection in the mirror.
Well, it beats the traditional diesel belch, right?
unidentified
And my comment is regarding, or the question regards the Codex.
George Nori had a guest on, I guess it was last week, the week before, and then a couple of weeks prior to that, he had a woman doctor or scientist, and she was talking about the Codex, and I got very alarmed by that, because I'm very much into nutrition or vitamins.
All right, let's try and remind everybody what the Codex is.
It was late in the show last night when the doctor mentioned it.
Apparently, it's a sort of a world or European right now standard which gets to the ridiculous side of things, almost where you'd have to have a prescription from a doctor to get an apple.
Now, that might be driving on the outside limits of what it really is, but it would restrict most health foods, you know, and additives and things that people think are good for them and put them in the realm of having to get a doctor's prescription.
That's basically it, right?
unidentified
Yes, Art, but the thing is, I'm kind of confused, because I went down to this community co-op health food store, membership-based, and they're very much into everything holistic, and you name it.
They have newsletters and what have you.
And I got the manager and I said, well, they should know about this.
And she came down and she says, well, no, we're already aware of this.
But anyway, she mentioned it, says, you know, basically, we have an exemption.
They have sought an exemption.
And I'm thinking, well, if they're telling her that, where is she getting this information?
Because I hope that's not a ruse because the guests have been saying one thing, but she's told me we have sought an exemption from that, so it will not apply to us.
All right, well, I hope for her sake that that's true.
Either way, the fact that they're considering the legislation of that kind of depth is very worrisome.
And what happened to individual freedom?
I understand we need an FDA and regulations to a certain degree to protect the American public.
We don't want some wholesale disaster on our hands, but there are limits, and this so-called Codex seems to be well beyond them as far as the average freedom-loving American is concerned.
Good morning.
You're on the air coast to coast AM with Art Bell.
The Zeta Raticulans, I don't think are occupying our moon, and I don't think the moon is a Death Star, it's just our moon.
And I think there are pretty good evidence to indicate the moon was actually carved out of the Earth at some point by something big, by some very large collision.
It was quite a few years ago, probably like 15, 20 years ago.
I was with some friends at Flea Market, and we found this little kitten all curled up under a park bench.
This was a pretty sad shape, like dehydrated and malnourished and real tiny.
You could put it in the palm of your hand.
And I brought it home to my mom, and she basically nursed it back to health.
I'd heard another caller call in many months ago already about having a kitten that she had nursed back, and for quite a while it just walked in circles.
You seem to be pretty well-versed with radio and frequencies and things like that.
A little bit.
I'm a security guard now.
I used to be a network technician for cell phone towers and work with them and things like that.
I'm not too well-versed with how frequency works and everything, but recently, the past three days, like all the Wilmington area, whenever I talk on my cell phone or wherever my friends talk on their cell phone, they get static, like really bad static on any service, any carrier.
I know every carrier is on a different frequency.
Not only that, my CV at work, where I work, all the radios at work get static, like this constant weird noises coming through the radios, coming through the cell phones, coming through basically anything, any kind of device that uses frequency or any kind of analog or digital device has been getting some really weird noises.
It could be electrical disturbance caused by a bad transformer or something in your immediate area, which would affect a very wide span of frequencies.
And one way you can figure that out for yourself is to get a portable radio and put it in the passenger seat next to you.
Tune it in so you can hear the static and start driving around your neighborhood and find it.
unidentified
Well, this is, I mean, within about a 45-mile radius.
I was wondering, this is the reason I called because there's a nuclear power plant that they've been working on recently.
And I heard they were having some problems.
And this is probably about 20, 30 miles within this radius, that they've been having some problems because they were taking out, I think they were trying to drain the ponds or something like that.
And they had a problem, and they had to shut the whole plant down.
But ever since, that's recently happened, this has been going on.
I wonder if that could have anything to do with it, and that's why I called.
might or something askew with the power plant might again the only way that you You might have to do a bit more of a drive if it's really affecting that kind of area.
we've never yet passed a location where they're selling it, but I can guarantee you that the first time we do, we're going to fill up and give everybody a report.
I mean, we're bound to do that.
There's one, I think, the closest is in northern Nevada or something.
Somebody looked it up for me.
So as soon as we get the opportunity, we're going to fill up and give it a try.
unidentified
Great.
Yeah, well, let's hope we get the soybeans instead of the oil from the Middle East.
Our farmers, American farmers, can make money growing soybeans and converting it into energy.
Our truckers, I'm sure, if the price was right, would much rather fill up with biodiesel and certainly something produced by American farmers any old day than imported diesel number two.
So there you have it.
In addition, I'd like to remind you that we have to have our truckers on the road.
They have to be there, ladies and gentlemen.
If they're not, we're not going to have things on the shelf.
It's that critical.
Coming up in a moment, a story you should sit down, turn the radio up, stop all diversions, and listen very carefully to.
Coming right up.
unidentified
The grass sings out all these things in our memories all.
And they used them to help us to fight.
The grass sings out all these things in our memories.
Spring time moving through the trees of the trees.
To talk with Art Bell.
Call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
International callers may reach ART by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast Day Out with Art Bell.
It is, and it's my pleasure now to get ready to escort you into a different way of thinking, a very different way of thinking.
This is going to be quite a program, I guarantee it.
It was just a number of years ago that I decided somewhat in retrospect, egocentrically, I think, that I would begin some experiments after hearing a number of my guests talk about consciousness and perhaps the power of mass consciousness, you know, millions of minds concentrating on one thing.
I began to engage a series of experiments.
And there were nine or perhaps 10 or 11 total, I think, by the time I finally decided that it was wiser to stop this course of action.
But in the beginning, we tampered with things like Mother Nature.
We were getting stories, for example, of a drought in Texas.
And so I made people stop in the middle of a commercial break, and millions of people close their eyes and concentrate on rain forming in that area of Texas.
And let me tell you, within hours, out of nowhere, without it being anywhere near being in the forecast, clouds formed and rain came.
In fact, so much rain that in parts of Texas, they flooded.
The same in the northwestern part of the U.S. and Canada.
They had a terrible drought.
We did it again.
Again, the rain formed and came when it should not have, when there was no forecast of rain.
Try and imagine that.
A couple of times, maybe.
But five or six times in a row, no way.
I began to become an absolute believer myself.
How could I not?
There were instances of praying for people who had very serious illnesses.
The same level of concentration was applied.
The people came back and said, oh my God, I was in the hospital.
I felt it happen, Art.
I felt it happen.
So without going into deep detail of all the different experiments we did, they were all at that level.
You know, big things.
Somebody who didn't have much of a chance of living.
Weather systems that ought not be there that we actually created with our minds.
I mean, after you've done this 10 or 11 times, you begin to realize that you're onto something.
It really works.
This is a gigantic power.
But with it comes the knowledge that you could make a mistake and that there could be unintended consequences.
So as a result, I stopped doing it.
But my interest could not be higher.
Could not be higher.
And so this is natural for me.
Bill Sweet wrote the following, after their mysterious unexpected suicides between the 7th and 12th of May of 1993, I as president of Spindrift, I think that's the name, Spindrift, spent years haunted by their memories.
Alas, 12 years later, the Klingbile Spindrift story is told.
A journey in a prayer would come across to your listeners as a spiritual ex-file and a tale of the way of politics of prayer and the parapsychology, the way it works, Bill Sweet.
And he's a ham, KF9DK.
Bill Sweet graduated from the New Trier High School and Illinois State University with a major in communications.
He was president of an entertainment booking agency in Chicago.
That's interesting.
His applications include being an investor, an audiophile, and a ham radio operator.
Bill was always interested in how consciousness and prayer relate to science and religion.
A natural connection between like-thinking people resulted in his involvement in the research of prayer and consciousness at Spindrift Research, where he became president.
A favorite quote of Bill's is by Charles Steinman, the father of modern electricity.
Someday, the scientists of the world will turn their laboratories over to the study of God and prayer and the spiritual forces which as yet have hardly been scratched.
Well, sounds a little religious, doesn't it?
But it's not really going to be.
This story, although it's going to have, I guess, connections to the concept of God and whatever else there may be, really was not religious.
A lot of scientific double-blind studies have been done.
In fact, the foreword to this book is written by a doctor who himself became a convert after doing his own experiments.
That would be Dr. Larry Dossi.
And so, in a moment, comes Bill Sweet and a story you've never heard.
You see, it's my belief that after the experiments I did and thinking I've done about the subject, and it's simply my conjecture that one day mankind is going to find out that mass consciousness is the single most powerful force in the universe.
Let me say that again.
The single most powerful force in the universe, dwarfing the splitting of the atom and all its various applications, some good, some bad.
And so I think no less of this, and I think that much of this, and this will deal with sort of the fringes of all of that, the story you're about to hear.
Been always interested in the paranormal, been always interested in religious things, spiritual overtones of things, try to relegate them together and bring them into a scientific concept.
Just all these things together.
And of course, it's kind of hard to mix all these things together, but I've always been interested in that.
I just happened to meet a gal, and she said, you have to meet my father and my brother.
And they were Bruce and John Klingbau.
I live in Mount Prospect, Illinois.
They lived in Schomburg, Illinois, which was three towns away.
And they were professional healers for the Christian Science Church, known as Christian Science Practitioners.
And they were also very interested in natural science.
They had some natural science background, too.
In fact, Bruce Klingbau, the father, wanted to be either a forest ranger, a Christian science practitioner, or a natural scientist.
So kind of got all these things going at the same time when he got into the spindrift area of research.
And so when I met them, I found out they were doing these terrific experiments.
They were just basic science, simple experiments with plants and with some parapsychology tests, too.
Well, the idea of it was that they were trying to show that there was something to it because they found that in the more sophisticated age, people were having experiences, but they could describe them in different ways.
Oh, I would have gotten well anyway, or this would have happened anyway, or maybe I was misunderstanding what happened.
And so what they wanted to do was find a way to isolate certain characteristics of prayer so that in a scientific context you could show that there is something going on other than chance, other than belief, and show that there is something going on at a distance.
So we call it paranormal, that the consciousness is affecting something at the distance.
And so what they did was that they set up some experiments, not dealing with people because people were too complex to deal with at first, to deal with plant systems.
And they would, for instance, they would set up things that were naturally happening in nature, like soybean seeds, for instance.
They would take them and they'd have people pray for the soybean seeds that were under some kind of stress.
Like the stress might be that they were over-soaked.
They had too much moisture.
So these young seedlings could not prosper because they had too much water.
So a person would pray and they would find that the result of the prayer would be that the soybean seeds would give off water and move more to a normal state.
And that would be compared to a control group of soybeans that was not prayed for, that was not recovering as quickly.
And over time, you accumulate the results and you control something's happening there.
Well, what we were doing were one-on-one experiments, one person praying for one experiment.
It wasn't a group thing at any point.
We were trying to show that there was a connection between the healer and the healer, between the subject, the person praying, and the object.
We were trying to make this connection.
And this is what we were trying to do in our simple experiments.
Now, we would have other experiments with soybeans, too, where they would be undersaked, and the soybeans could not prosper because they didn't have enough moisture, and the person would pray.
And what would happen was the seeds would take on moisture from the air, and they would move towards normal, as compared to a control group.
Now, those are experiments that people might say, well, I've heard of things like that before, but what is interesting, like taking that example, was, is that we could bring in people that were very experienced with prayer from different backgrounds, healers and energy people and things like that.
And they wouldn't know what they were praying for.
They didn't know what the need of the plant was.
They knew that there was a need.
They didn't know if it was oversoaked, undersaked, they didn't know what its problem was, but they would pray for it.
And what we found was that if you could set up soybean seeds that were oversoaked next to soybean seeds that were undersaked, and you had somebody that really knew how to pray, that same prayer would help the seeds that were oversoaked give off moisture, move towards normal.
At the same time, that prayer would help the other group of seeds that were undernourished with moisture take on water and move towards normal.
In other words, you might be praying for one plant or even praying for two plants, but how do you know that plants 100 miles, 200 miles, the other side of the earth, did not in also some way respond?
Do we know the field of the effect of this, how direct it is?
Well, I suppose the butterfly effect applies to everything.
You cannot isolate thought completely.
But we do have another experiment that was, in fact, a demonstration of how close you can get to isolating an effect.
The Klingbiles took a mold and put it on a petri dish and put a string down the middle of it and rinsed it with alcohol.
Not enough to kill it, but enough to hinder it.
And there was a side A and a side B determined by the string.
And a healer would determine which side they wanted to pray for.
But let's say side A was the control group that decided to pray for side B. And they were able to show that the prayer enhanced and affirmed side B, and several more rings would grow on side B from the prayer, but side A did not grow anymore.
So there is a degree to which you can isolate thought.
You're not always that fortunate, but there's an experiment where you can.
Now that wouldn't mean that on some minuscule level that something else because of the butterfly effect isn't being effective.
That refers to a butterfly flapping its wings in South America, causing a windstorm ultimately in Australia, or something like that.
That's correct.
But that's not what I'm asking.
What I'm asking is the direct effect, if you're praying for a plant or casting out a general prayer and it affects two plants with two separate problems, what we don't know is how far the actual field itself, what it encompasses, whether it's just going to those particular plants or it's, forget the butterfly effect, but actually its radiation is limitless and might go around the whole earth.
The idea was very taboo when Spindra started in 1969.
Up until about 1995, December 1995, the idea that you could mix the scientific method with some religious concepts, with healing, with parapsychology, and come up with a combination that would be workable with all those combustible things working together became an anathema to many people, and they just did not like it.
I mean, church groups actually prayed against our group.
I would say that it's centered on tempting the Lord.
People say you should never tempt the Lord of these things, or God's power cannot be brought into the laboratory, or parapsychology is the work of the devil, and you can't bring that in.
In my book, for instance, A Journey into Prayer, I have a whole chapter there on our connections to politics.
The president of Spindrift was a guy who ran for the Republican candidate as governor of Colorado.
And John Andrews, the only thing they could find bad about him was his connections to a bunch of kooks, so-called, that prayed for plants in the laboratory and thought they got results.
And that was the cheap thing they picked on through the whole election.
A lot of the skeptics claim they're atheists and everything else, but actually I've seen equal amounts of fundamentalism from the skeptics as I have from the so-called religious fundamentalists.
I think some scientists are going to call them scientific supremacists.
The thing is, is that I think it worries people that it worries religious people that this gets out into evil areas.
It worries the skeptics that it gets out into this wild thing that the world's going crazy.
If people start believing this stuff, even if it's true, we're going to have people on the streets doing psychic stuff and mass consciousness and everything.
Yes, well, stack the Spindrift research, Bruce and Sean Klingbao and some of their family members and some other people, after this started getting stirred up about Spindrif and everything, they realized that there are some bad consequences out there.
More people realize that some of this stuff might actually be true about consciousness, that you can affect things and affect people.
Well, I can't recall ever else in my career when I walked into something as powerful as what I walked into with those experiments.
And it totally, totally freaked me out when I realized what I was tampering with and reality hit me and I realized it was stupidly egotistical to blunder around in an area that I knew nothing about.
I stopped.
And that caution was reaffirmed by others that I've interviewed from Princeton, you know, the guys doing the consciousness experiment there.
All right, brother, hold on.
We'll get right back to you.
What you're going to hear is going to be a wail of a story of the Klingbiles, what they did, and the tragic end they came to.
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When Bill Sweet wrote to me, he suggested that I read the epilogue to the book.
And he was ever so right.
It sets up exactly the path that we want to go down as we talk about this perhaps greatest power in the universe, this mass consciousness that I've toyed with in the past, don't anymore, but this giant power that,
leave me is in a moment i'll read you that epilogue and you can judge for yourself I think this might help you understand what Bill Sweet and the Klingiles were doing.
It's been said that gratitude is the highest form of prayer.
I'm grateful that the Kling Biles pioneering research has sparked others to research prayer and consciousness.
If holy prayer produces any noticeable effect, restored order is part of that noticeable effect.
Proposals to test the proposition that prayer produces calming or healing effects is beginning to be attempted as part of the investigation of human consciousness, the brain, the effects of holiness, and spirituality.
Bruce and John Klingbile used all the know-how and all the equipment they could muster to test the proposition that prayer produces several kinds of effects, including ordering effects.
Referring to Bruce and John Klingbile, two researchers at the St. Louis Medical Center, wrote, quote, Their work enters the further reaches of parapsychological research.
Reading these sections, one has the distinct impression that the authors reached the limits of current scientific methods in exploring the questions they raised.
Was the payoff worth the punishment?
No good deed goes unpunished.
The hated spindrift has received for introducing experiments testing prayer makes me wonder if the spindrift effort was worth the turmoil and unhappiness it caused some of us associated with the experiments.
I hope the payoff was worth the time and money we spent.
Speaking for myself, life would have been a lot happier had I not known Bruce and John Klingbil's experiments, but life would have been a lot less intriguing.
One intrigue was to watch the wild negative reactions to unconventional ideas for marrying religion, consciousness, and science.
Even the tragedy of 9-11 points to the importance of testing prayer.
Spindrift knew that prayer wasn't always motivated by good.
There was a dark side to prayer, at least as seen globally, when terrorists revealed they prayed five times a day, then they killed people.
Philosopher Pascal penned, men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction, end quote, after 9-11.
A UFO researcher wrote me saying, quote, who needs invading aliens to destroy the earth when we have religious terrorists, end quote.
Question.
9-11 provided proof that the brain's conditioning about God and prayer could potentially annihilate mankind.
The world's democracies may be forced to acknowledge that the war on terrorism is a war of ideologies of love and hate and intense belief about prayer.
And then in bold print, world patterns of love and hate may become as necessary to track as weather patterns.
For the religious terrorist and meek alike, the following words of Dr. Albert Schweitzer point to higher motives in prayer for mankind.
Quote, we must realize that all life is valuable and that we are united to all life.
That's really important, united to all life.
From this knowledge comes Our spiritual relationship, if I might, to the universe.
When it's established that prayer does affect people, the moral makeup of each of us will tip our prayers to include our neighbors, or lock and load our prayers to kill our neighbors.
Our holy motives in prayer, or lack of them, are in proportion to what we believe is the true nature of God.
We need only look at the world today to see that our deep motives in prayer result in physically affecting mankind.
Mrs. Eddy writes, quote, the crudest ideals of speculative theology have made monsters of men, end quote.
As mankind increasingly discovers it's in a computerized century, it seems likely that everything worth investigating about consciousness will gradually be given a chance.
Since the spindrifters raised science questions about consciousness and prayer that created outrage, perhaps the worst outrage is over for now, and other researchers can move freely to investigate the effects of prayer, spirituality, and consciousness on healing.
So I'll stop there.
But basically, that gives people an idea of what you've written about here, Bill, when you wrote about these two men, a father and a son, right?
A father and son, both professional healers, and both were interested in showing that there was some provability to this, and it caused a lot of bad things along the way.
And it's very interesting what you said, that you stopped doing these things.
It probably scared you.
You found out there was an effect, and it scared you.
It was kind of interesting because it reminded me during the break that we had a couple people who did our spindriff experiments, and they wanted nothing more to do with them after that.
It scared them that they could actually see that their thought did something.
And so there are ramifications to all this research, but you know, we have to move forward.
Every invention has its bad things.
We all know the story about the atom bomb.
We had to split the atom, but it could have been used one way or uses another way.
And prayer, unfortunately, can be used for good or bad, and consciousness can be used for good or bad.
And I suppose the future is going to be kind of a tipping point.
Either we're going to go forward when we discover what can be done with thought, or we're going to actually take our discovery of what mass consciousness can do, use it upon ourselves, and annihilate ourselves.
But I think that what we can make as a good argument is a distinction that we make at Spindriff between prayer, which is goal-oriented, which is praying for rain or whatever, and prayer which is non-goal-oriented, which is praying for what is best.
And when we get into this area of where we get our own ideas away from what we think we want to do, but pray for what should turn out to be the best in the situation, we find results that we don't anticipate that are normalizing for a situation that actually don't bring danger and bad consequences along with what we desired.
And what that means in terms of the spiritual argument is that, again, we can't prove the existence of God, but we think that we can prove through non-goal directory prayer, which we call the I will be done prayer, when they get the ego out of the way, is that a cultivated consciousness of these spiritual qualities and premises and desires to have what is best for a situation to occur brings only good results, but you can't anticipate them, but ultimately you see how it normalizes the situation, harmonizes the situation.
For example, if the men who drove those airplanes into the World Trade Centers prayed hard enough, God knows, it's just they prayed five times a day devoutly before they decided they would do their deed, and their deed resulted in thousands of innocent people being killed, thousands of Americans being killed.
They succeeded, and the power of their prayer apparently was as great as the power anybody might manifest for the good.
It would seem at this point that people's goal-oriented thoughts and goal-oriented prayers are more powerful, it seems so, than the power of good thoughts.
But it's this tipping point concept that we Could tip either way.
But then again, one person with a clear thought in a way that nobody else is knowing what they're doing can break through that.
I'll tell you, let me just cut in and just real tried to.
It's kind of a complicated concept, but I'll just say that when a person prays alone and in a secret, you know, Jesus talks about shutting the door and being in a closet, all that, what you're trying to do there is come up with a strategy of praying for something that's undefended that nobody else is thinking about.
If a whole mass consciousness is on something and you're trying to pray about that too, you're going to get nowhere.
They're going to overwhelm you.
But you have to pray about something that they're not thinking about.
What if we had found out ahead of time what the goal of these men was?
That is, that their goal was to drive these planes into buildings, into the Pentagon.
Had the world or the U.S. known about that, do you think that the prayers that would be on the other side of the question, heaven knows God, I'm sure, is getting sick of being appealed to by two sides of an argument?
I didn't like the term when I got involved in the group, but it's the one thing that people remember.
It's a nautical term.
It's in most dictionaries.
It refers to the out of the big, you're talking about hurricanes and storms out at cyclones.
It's a storm out at sea stirring up the wave, and the wave is moving so fast that the edge of the wave, the spray, becomes almost a physical form of water.
And if it hits your face, something is like nails going into your face.
It's a rare phenomenon.
I've only met one person in my life who's been in Spindrift or seen Spindrift, and they almost lost their life, and it's something you don't want to see.
And we use that as the symbol for the name of our group because it symbolizes this cutting edge between the visible water and the invisible realm of vapor there like consciousness.
So we're right at the cutting edge doing research at the cutting edge of visible matter and invisible consciousness.
It incorporated as a nonprofit organization in 1981 in Illinois, research organization.
But they were doing these experiments and they were getting people coming in to volunteer to pray for experiments.
My job when I became president right away, I had to find statisticians to hire to keep track of the data and I had to procure scientific equipment for them.
They had one, Bruce and John Kleenbaugh in 1977 when I met them, had one of the very first Apple II computers, one of the very low serial numbers.
And they got right into this stuff and started automating some of their experiments.
They were using hand scales to measure seeds and yeast cells and different kinds of systems.
And we were also, they used one of the very first random, well, not one of the very first, but one of the first amateur attempts at it.
They had a random event generator built for the computer.
And John Klingbau, the son, prayed over the circuits in there, and we compared random numbers, what would happen if you prayed over them, and they would go into different patterns that weren't random.
course you know that's what's going on at princeton and i have tried certain that you have to be very familiar with I mean, we're all familiar with each other.
And there was just a meeting of eight or ten of those guys getting together.
You know, your guys you've had on like Russell Targ.
Oh, yes.
And they got together, and they're not going to be too strong on how they feel about it because then the skeptics will jump on you.
But they really think there's something there, that it's, you know, there's a problem with the signal-to-noise level and some of those things, but there's enough evidence to show that something is going on.
And it's very exciting because what is going to happen is that, like you read From my book that someday democracies are going to have to take seriously the idea of judging world love and hate going on, it may be that this is a prototype way of doing it through the AIG experiments, which is the global Gaia experiment, basically kind of through random numbers monitoring unrest in the world and things going on in the world.
And these numbers jump all over the place when big news events happen.
And their hit rate is beginning to be better than any of the psychics I've ever had on this program.
And so I'm beginning to watch those.
And by the way, the audience should know, you can actually go to a site at Princeton, and you can look at these, you'll hear a heartbeat, which is really eerie.
And then you'll see all these different scales of these different eggs scattered all over the globe reporting in.
And you'll see the graph going up and down and bells ringing and buzzers going off.
And it's all kept on a graph like an earthquake chart, kind of like you'd see, whenever we have an earthquake, they show on TV and you see the chart, and then you see the sudden swing.
Well, that's what they're looking for in this experiment.
And these sudden swings occur hours before events, like 9, 11, four hours.
The thing went berserk before the event.
And as we go back through history, I don't know how many years now, a lot of years, it's just nailed them one after another.
And maybe think of something I hadn't thought of, but I have it in the book, but I didn't read it up until now, and that is that Bruce and John Kleinbile, I don't know the years, but I thought it was the early 80s, late 70s, made a prediction that what would actually end up might be in the thing that establishes as a smoking gun that such a thing exists as psychic thought,
consciousness thought, and even prayer thought would be machinery, not human beings, because machinery more objective than human beings who are subjective.
So here's an example of that.
You have these inanimate objects called random event generators that are actually establishing there is such a thing as action as distance, non-locality, psychic experience, and consciousness effects, not human beings, not psychics.
It's kind of interesting.
And part of the reason for that is that human beings are potent receptors of psychic phenomena, spiritual phenomena, but we're not objective about at the output.
We try to turn around and explain things and we get all messed up.
Listen, it's about an hour late and a dollar short, but I did get that photograph up of the RV with that antenna that now that you all can see it, I suppose will be recognizable worldwide.
But on my webcam, which is on the website CoastCozam.com, you can view this clothesline in motion.
It's an amazing antenna.
It is an amazing antenna, and I promised to put it up.
So there you have it.
That's our RV with the antenna on it.
Bill Sweet is here, and we're discussing a very, very serious subject.
I did an interview for a lady the other day.
It was really interesting.
She'd been bugging me and bugging me to do this interview for months.
And so I did, and she peppered me with questions about, well, do you believe in extra?
Do you believe in ETs?
I said, well, I don't know.
No, I don't believe in them.
I think it's possible or even probable, but no, I don't believe in them.
Well, she doesn't have much of a chance to listen to the program.
You know, she hears it from time to time, but she doesn't really listen to it.
And frankly, a lot of people have me pegged, which I don't mind as the UFO, the UFO guy, right?
And I have to believe in these things.
Well, no, I don't.
I believe in what I've seen.
I believe in what I can prove.
And I take probably almost nothing on faith.
I'm not good in the faith category.
I'm really not.
But what we're talking about tonight doesn't require faith.
I guess except in the execution of the act itself, but in terms of believing that it's real, that there is something to this, that it's not just cooked up baloney.
Yeah, you bet I believe.
I believe in the power of consciousness.
I believe and definitely believe in the power of mass consciousness to the point that it scares me a little bit.
When people begin to find out about it, governments begin to find out about it, mountains will move, believe me.
So this is one of those things that I don't have to take on faith.
The work has been done by many doctors, in this case, the Klingbiles, very Interesting.
In fact, they ended up committing suicide.
And in a moment, we're definitely going to ask Bill about that.
So this young lady interviewed me and was so shocked by my lack of faith in almost anything and just couldn't believe it, absolutely couldn't believe it.
And I ended up telling her, look, I'm not sure I could even do this show properly if I had some great, unshakable faith in whatever.
I think it would bias me in so many ways that it would affect the way I approached each one of my guests.
A faith, a belief that strong, an unshakable, rock-solid faith, is going to absolutely bias you in the way you approach guests who have very unconventional ideas.
So, in a way, it perhaps aids me in doing this kind of material.
Bill, welcome back.
The Klingmiles ended up committing suicide, right?
Yeah, I was going to say that the research was ready to have a breakthrough, and we have that recorded, but also there is some evidence from suicide notes and things that they did this, but it doesn't make any sense.
The breakthrough we were on the verge of was getting finally published in some scientific journals and being invited to some more serious conferences.
We were invited to conferences before.
We were getting invited to more serious conferences and things.
And also things were just coming along where it looked like some other, not grant money necessarily, but some other groups were going to work on trying to replicate our experiments, things like that.
Okay, so the breakthrough you're talking about is a realization by the mainstream, or at least some part of the mainstream scientific community, that you had something valid to the mainstream, and you're about to get published as well.
All right, then.
Look, again, stop me if you don't want to tell, but it's almost integral, it seems to me, to the story to understand, and apparently it was explained in suicide notes that were left, why the act was done.
And the point involved is that they didn't want to get the well, they didn't want to get the store where they bought the guns in trouble, so they went in a completely different direction out of a county.
And it's very strange why they would go to such extremes.
There's a whole list of things.
One is that there might have been a threat against Spindrift and that there is the perceived thing that a person is a quack if he prays for people.
For instance, we were going to have a be on a TV show, and they filmed it, and it was going to be great.
And at the last minute, they called and said we were going to be kicked out because what we were doing was too controversial, and we asked them who stopped it.
And they said, well, we can't tell you who stopped it.
It was just a business decision.
Just all kinds of things happened that were very strange.
Yeah, Spindrift originated here in the Chicago area.
And when it got too hot, the subject area, Bruce Klingbile lost his church job.
He was a practitioner.
He lost his job over these experiments.
And when that happened, his income went down, and they decided we wanted him to stay here because everybody's going to help him stay here, but they decided to move to a state where it was less expensive to live because all of a sudden everybody wouldn't go to Bruce Klingbile for help because he was perceived as a strange person for believing that you could scientifically test prayer.
And so they decided, Bruce and John decided to move to Salem, Oregon, which at the time was a very reasonable place to live in a beautiful place.
It's very expensive now, so they moved out there and several Spindrift people went with them out there.
And that's where the laboratory was from then on.
And to answer your question, it's still a mystery.
This is the Twin Peaks aspect of the Spindrift story.
We still don't have this resolved.
I'm sure there's going to be more information because there's different interpretations of what happened.
I think you would agree with me that you can look at a situation and you can just take it for what it is, suicides, or you can say this doesn't fit and there's more to it.
i do you know They could just see it coming with the advancement of the computer and the advancement of quantum physics and people actually starting to look into these things underneath, which didn't really have underneath the surface.
And so they wanted to be in there so that the spiritual point of view could be in there too.
So Bruce and Klemau had a great phrase.
He said that, you know, if you're going to be in a circular firing squad, it's better to fire first.
And so you wanted to get right out front there in the 1969 and 70s and start looking into these things.
And then, of course, they were backfired.
I would say this.
They were innocent about this.
They thought there would be this great receptivity to what they were doing.
And I never did.
I thought they were naive.
I think that I was brought up in a neighborhood where there was a lot of debating and a lot of skepticism.
And I always knew that these things would backfire because I've been involved in other things that backfired.
And I think they were hurt by every time something went wrong.
Whereas someone like myself, I just was sort of laughed at it because I said, this is human behavior again.
Well, Bill, is there any possibility that they were into perhaps a depth of some experiment that you were not aware of at the time they committed suicide?
anticipating something good not a crime when you put a shotgun in your mouth you know they were going to And they had ordered, and the funny thing was, after the suicides, a chair and a bed, let's say, I don't know which one, maybe both, but that they had ordered, they had ordered a new chair for their computer desk, and it came after the suicides.
And they just ordered it.
And Sean Clean Bile was going to get a new dog, and he had it all picked out, and everything.
Yeah, yeah, well, they have plenty of odd beliefs.
I think we all do.
I think in our group we have very different unconventional ideas about things.
And I think sometimes maybe this would identify with some of the people you've interviewed and you'd understand that sometimes when you're out there in a new area, you're hanging on a flagpole and blowing in the wind, you're all alone, you don't have that many people you can talk to, and it's hard to find references.
That's why things are references.
You're kind of hanging out there and nobody wants to have anything to do with you.
Well, isn't everything subjective and a matter of interpretation?
I would say that they had some people that wanted to run the Spindrift office and participate in experiments and help with the publicity.
I think anything can be interpreted anyway.
I don't see it that way, but people have seen it that way.
Because it's just like the brain scan research is going on today.
It shows that spirituality may be an illusion in the brain, or spirituality actually may be something that's beneficial to mankind and there's a reason for it.
If you're the skeptic, you take the first view.
If you're the believer, you take the second view.
So things can be viewed different ways.
I would say that it would have been nice if we probably had some more normal experiences at Spindriff rather than all these abnormal and paranormal things happening all the time.
So it probably seems to be this idea of the trickster that you hear about in paranormal.
You get involved in things and things come along to trick you up.
I wouldn't be surprised that just being involved in this very area of the edge of consciousness and cutting-edge research into parapsychology, it kind of drives you a little nutty.
Well, they do think it's a religion, and they believe that religion belongs in a church just like the one they go to, not in a laboratory with little plants and stuff like that.
The nails shall rest for a moment and pay for more hammers to drive it in.
From the high desert, I'm Mark Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
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Only strange and mournful day But the mother and child reunion Is only a motion away Oh, I've been wrong with my mind
I can't find the life of me Remember a sad day I know they say let me Just don't look out that way And the course of a lifetime runs Over and over again But I would not give you false hope now On this strange
and awful day But the mother and child reunion Is only emotional way Do you?
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I mean, here are two men, the Klingbiles, father and son, deeply Involved in very controversial work.
Work showing that prayer and intent on an object can cause an outcome, a physical, actual outcome.
This whole consciousness thing we're talking about, they were deeply involved in that and ended up putting shotguns in their mouths and blowing their brains out.
So I don't mean to dwell on that aspect of it, but you certainly have to wonder what it is that could cause men of such devotion to experimental science to either become so unstable or run into something that would cause them to do an action of that sort.
It's just not.
I just cannot fathom it.
Perhaps you can, or perhaps, easily, perhaps, there's something we do not know.
agents of science or as as satan But either we're doing research that's important, trying to bring ideas of healing research and science and religion together, or we're tampering with things that should never be tampered with.
I suppose if enough people conjure up something like that, just like today, people have, they're looking for a designer God.
They want a God that worships them rather than they worship God.
So if they want a designer God, they might as well have a designer Satan.
I think people get together and have a collective consciousness, get an idea of what they want as an evil being.
I think it would be something that would be an archetype of collective consciousness put together by people.
Satan would be.
It would be bad enough.
They would do a lot of damage.
For instance, Dean Raden in his book, The Conscious Universe, brings out that he says he thinks that evil going around the world and even terrorism, you're getting back to, I won't use the butterfly effect, well, I'll use your field.
You mentioned the field earlier.
He feels that when there's anger and stuff going over on one side of the earth, that it actually comes over this side of the earth, and all of a sudden people are angry and upset about things, and it's actually because of what's going on over there.
This is what will need to be coming because the more we learn about thought, oh, Art.
There is an article you and your listeners have to read, and it's the cover story on the February 28th U.S. News and World Report on how the unconscious mind works.
And we take it, it's not about the paranormal, but Spindriff has taken some of these things that go on in the unconscious mind and have made them into non-local issues.
But it shows how our unconscious thinking shapes everything and that virtually we do almost no original thinking.
We're run by our unconscious mind and the things that are put into it.
We're mouthpieces for the collective and what we find that in this case we find that how the brain is formed and everything and how it dictates things to us.
And so it's very hard to get by that hardware.
It's like in the movie The Matrix.
You think this is all very real and everything, but how do you break through that to find the real thing?
It's pretty hard because the very thing you're using to think this through with is the brain and that's what your hindrance is.
They were the founders and the driving force behind Spindrift.
Yes, that's right.
And I think this problem they ran into, and you're talking about the suicides and everything, I think what bothers people, kind of like the movies that we all saw as kids, the Frankenstein movies, you know, the townsfolks would go up to the castle and burn it down because they didn't understand the experiments that Dr. Frankenstein was doing.
Well, they're actually wrong.
I mean, it's a hard thing to understand, but these experiments bother people.
People are bothered by science when it comes to, and if you're in religious group, especially, and actually there's things that are going to happen that are kind of Frankenstein's today that are actually necessary to do, and it just bothers people, and they go kind of berserk.
I mean, like the stem shell research is so necessary, and yet, you know, religion gets in there and comes up with all kinds of things to stop it.
It's going to go on anyway, but it's almost like the present-day thing with Dr. Frankenstein trying to burn down his place in the world.
And I think that we could establish through enough experiments and people doing the experiments that something was happening between the healer and healer, between the healer and what's going on.
And there is an experiment that does back up what we are talking about at Spindriff.
I was wondering if you were aware of this experiment that has been done enough times by scientists to show that there's something there.
Are you aware of this thing where you have people in a Faraday cage talking to each other?
Well, this experiment has been done by people, and here's the experiment.
You would put a man in one Faraday cage and another man in another Faraday cage.
They would hook brain scans up to these people's heads, and they would let these guys get into some intense conversation of something they were interested in, you know, whatever it was, sports or ham radio or some hobby or something.
They'd get into this intense conversation.
And after 20 minutes, they would start recording what these guys were up to.
And what happened was, and these guys didn't know it in the cage, one guy in one cage had a light in there that was blinking faster than he could see it.
His unconscious mind could see it, but it was blinking so fast that the conscious mind didn't see this light blinking.
And this brain scan showed a certain part of the brain that would light up, where this light was being picked up by the retina and registered by the unconscious mind.
But the guy consciously couldn't see it, okay?
What is interesting is the guy in the other cage didn't have this light on, but the brain scan showed that his brain lit up in The same area.
i mean despite the fact that they apparently left some brief final words bill yeah i've got a lot of people on this computer next to me uh...
were able to fast-blast me messages saying it look how sure are you they were not murdered i'm not i'm not sure about me everybody doesn't i mean house house i was just had a do we know?
Maybe it wouldn't be murder in the sense that you would think of it.
Things could be manipulated.
You know, maybe some people have the theory, maybe somebody forced them to shoot themselves or something like that or had something on them or something.
You know, it's just, it's bizarre, and it was uncharacteristic.
Because of the nature of their experiments, it's worth asking, haven't you ever wondered whether they might not have opened a door they did not intend to open?
I keep reaching out for one of my good friends who's both into religion and parapsychology.
He thinks through all this, their sensitivity to phenomena, spiritual and their experiences and everything, and they were very, I got to tell you, I don't think I said it, I mean, they were very loving people and very spiritual people and very, very perceptive, incredibly aware of things and, you know, these type of people.
They sort of saw things happening before they would happen.
My friend thought that maybe they saw something that scared them.
They looked into, kind of like remote viewing or something, saw something that just kind of scared them.
There was a speculation I started to mention earlier, and it was just a speculation.
I know that there was some talk, and I wasn't in on it.
It's something that I still want to know about.
But again, when you're a healer and you're praying for people, sometimes that is seen as quackery.
And it could be that somebody called them for help when all other medical measures were gone and they took up the case.
And who knows what happened to the person, but maybe somebody turned that into some potential lawsuit or something, because I know there was something about talking to lawyers about something, and I never got what it was.
So it could be that, and to mix another thing there, trying to connect dots, Bruce Klingbell did tell me sometime before the suicides that what could really shut down Spindriff would be some lawsuit that would just type the finances and all the things and for years and years and nothing would ever get done.
So there might be that there was something that came along having to do with somebody filing a lawsuit that would have caused trouble for them and Spindrift and a lot of people.
And, you know, there's just one thing.
But then there's a lot of strange things like that that we put together.
We had a lot of people give us input.
There were an awful lot of people coming over to see them.
Scientific people, television crews, radio interview people, and then different researchers.
And fortunately, a lot of these people supplied me with information.
They had been in contact with them at that time, and I put it all together.
It's just that it seemed to me that just like that book you read in high school, it starts out, I think it's a tale of two studies.
It starts out, these are the best of times and these are the worst of times.
I think that that's sort of what may have happened.
It was the best of times and the worst of times.
things got better and things were starting to open up for the worst things were coming in in russian m Is it up as it was when these two men committed suicide, roughly?
Yes, and the person can find this website by searching Spindrift Research.
Well, I've been talking at conferences and invited to do different things, and everybody I see giving a talk has a book.
I said, you know, I think my book has some substance to it.
There's a story here.
I think I should tell the story.
A lot of people don't know about Spindrift and the Clean Biles, and I thought he would tell a story because we had been doing this grassroots research for years and helping other people.
And the only people that really knew about us were the other people in the scientific research community doing this kind of research in the religion, science, consciousness area of trying to do research.
And the only other people that knew about us were relatives and friends who hated what we were doing and groups that hated what we were doing.
I think I have always had this keen sense of humor, and I think it helped me to see how ridiculous all this was, even though some things were very evil and very serious.
I mean, you know, we laughed.
John Cleanbaugh and I always laughed because it seemed like we always had something to offend somebody.
And it's a funny thing, but it's just the way of the nature of What we were doing.
And I think that I was able to kind of mentally blow it off that way.
But I will say that, you know, it was upsetting, too.
It was upsetting that I didn't get to that point because I knew how ridiculous it was.
I've had other experiences in my life that are just absurd.
And I know you've been through it.
You just can't believe the wild reactions people have had to some of the things that you're doing.
All right, when we get back, I want to let the audience ask you some questions about this whole thing.
And that'll give the audience an opportunity to cherry-pick any of what we've been talking about, the experiments themselves, what might have driven these two men to commit such an odd ending for themselves.
My God.
What an incredible story.
A journey into prayer.
Pioneers of prayer in the laboratory.
Agents of science or Satan from the high desert in the darkness.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified
He's got this dream of our minds.
Some land he's gonna give up the booze and one night's dead.
Settle down quiet little town.
Forget about everything.
But you know he'll always keep moving.
You know he's never gonna stop moving.
Cause he's rolling.
He's the roadstone.
When you wake up, it's a new morning.
The sun is shining.
It's a new morning.
You're going to, you're going to.
To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Remember those people who committed suicide, thought they were going to...
That's what they said in their wording.
They'd graduated from Earth.
And they were going to whatever that was.
And you have to wonder if perhaps the Klingbiles, in some further stage of their work than Bill Sweet was aware of, may have come to some understanding or they may have run into something or opened some door that caused them to do what they did.
But near as I can tell from what I've heard, threatened lawsuits nonwithstanding, there really was no reason that a reasonable person would take a shotgun, father and son, put it in their mouths and blow their brains out.
There's just not enough there to make A add up to B. There just isn't.
The whole story is strange.
At any rate, it's your turn, your chance to ask questions of Bill Sweet, who is still part, president of this organization, and has written this book about the power of consciousness, in effect.
They do fundamentalism, and it's a very good point, how this fundamentalist thought wants to send things backwards in time rather than forwards.
And I mean, we do have it here in our country with like the example of the religious people who blow up abortion clinics.
We're seeing it all over the world now.
It's unbelievable.
unidentified
Yeah.
Well, I'm an Apache, and I'm from the Lakota, Dakota oral tradition, and we talk about prayer all the time and how powerful prayer is.
And prayer doesn't necessarily, you know, when you're praying, you're praying for someone to get well, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get well.
Healing is a whole different aspect.
When you heal, it doesn't mean you get well with cancer or anything.
You heal, and healing means that you have the capacity to go through whatever it is you're going through.
In other words, the point is, what is most normal for this situation?
What will bring out the best result?
We do want to see healing, of course, but if everybody in the world had their prayers answered and everybody got healed, I mean, we'd have a population problem, we'd have all kinds of other things happen, and there's some situations where it's interesting.
I remember this about the suicide thing.
I did have a talk years and years and years ago with Bruce Clainbill about suicide.
He could think of one situation where you would commit suicide.
If you were an agent for the United States government, a secret agent, CIA agent, and you had vital national security information and you were caught and they were going to pound it out of you.
It would be better to kill yourself to save the people from that being revealed.
So, I mean, that was one.
If you knew something, well, maybe even real agent, maybe we can even tighten this.
But anyway, the point is, if you know something that would do more damage than good, it might be good to Could they have stumbled into something in their research, Bill, could they have stumbled into something of that magnitude?
We knew that there were good and bad consequences to this.
And it can drive you crazy.
In fact, the article that I was mentioning from U.S. News and World Report on this research of the brain, they would ask people, would you kill your child?
And of course, immediately the brain, they would go crazy.
No, no, no.
Then they gave them a scenario.
Well, what about this?
What if you were in Germany during World War II and the Germans were coming in?
You were Jewish people, and the whole town was cuddled underneath the house in a basement, and you had a child that was crying.
And you knew that the only way you couldn't be found by those soldiers was if you covered the child's mouth and smothered and had to kill it.
Because if you didn't kill that child, everybody would be killed.
Then would you kill your child?
And then the brain activity went crazy, and you had all these conflicts and everything.
It's incredible.
But the point was that there are situations where things have to be done for the greater good.
I'm a breaking master, so I'm very familiar with energy healing and even long-distance healing.
In the concept of breaking, there's a concept that you don't step out of the way with your ego and then you let the higher power, God, your oversoul, whatever you choose to call it, the greater consciousness of the universe, direct the healing where it will do the most good for the most number of people.
In other words, even the cancer analogy, if someone has dying of cancer, there might be lessons, spiritual lessons, that the family members would have to learn.
And so the death may happen anyway, but there may be healing that takes place in that family because of the healing energy that is done by a ranking members.
My question is how much research has been driven to into like non-goal-oriented prayer and what kind of findings that they have on how it ultimately comes out for the higher good for all the people concerned?
One of the two major contributions to Spindriff, we feel, has been this distinction scientifically that it's made between goal-directed prayer and non-goal-directed prayer.
Goal-directed prayer is this asking prayer.
Like Jesus says, ask and you shall receive.
The trouble is, most of the time, human beings ask for the wrong thing.
We were able to show this.
People ask for what they want.
What they want isn't necessarily what they need.
Non-goal-directed prayer is this thy will-be-done prayer where you get your ego out of the way, and we feel that that was something new that we were offering to research.
I mean, people have always known about goals.
You know, I want a car or I want a new job and things like that.
People have prayed like that for years.
But the idea of not having a goal and just letting the power of flow, the divine, go through you and produce a result, and you're just the observer, and you watch what your prayers are doing, and you don't know what's going to happen until you observe it, that's something fundamentally new, at least scientifically.
So we hope that there's going to be some counterbalance to this kind of prayer, because if the whole world's going to be goal-oriented, remember that movie, Bruce, where he played God and he had everybody win the lottery at once and it ended up bringing chaos?
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bill Sweet.
Good morning.
unidentified
Hi.
What do you think of this?
This is my theory.
I think that maybe the missing chalice that they all think is the golden grail is actually the belief or the knowledge that the people all put together are stronger than anything else that they could possibly do.
You know, I think they're afraid.
That's why they make psychics look like kooks, you know, and they do everything the opposite of the way it is.
Yes.
What if everybody at 12 o'clock said, I declare this war is over.
We really hope that they really, if that was the real intention, it would be there's one of Shakespeare's play, I think it's Othello, about the women withhold marital relations with their men and listening after war or something.
You can imagine what enough people doing something together could do this.
unidentified
I think just praying for the whole world to get along or for just end this war.
Why we were there on a false pretense and now we're still killing people for what?
Well, you see how complicated it became instantly now?
It's become very complicated.
It's not a simple thing at all.
So it's a very difficult thing.
And again, I would say that the way to pray about the present war situation, as long as that came up, would be open-ended about it, and let's see where it's going to go.
Because really, nobody knows where it's going to go.
So we might as well pray that way and go with the flow.
I mean, I am a Christian scientist and a Christian, and the thing is, is that I am looking for prayer that is a blessing to whatever I'm praying about.
And I would say what I understand that prayer does, the way I would define it, and this is the way we define it at Spindrift, is that prayer brings more order and harmony to a situation.
And so you pray and you w sit back as a witness and observe and wait for that to happen.
And so that's the way I would pray.
And if I need wisdom or knowledge, I mean, that would be an answer to it, too.
But if you're an Islamic terrorist, then the collapse of the World Trade Towers and the plane that crashed into the Pentagon, to them, that's bringing more order to their world.
It's bringing peace even from their point of view to their world.
Well, it shows you how everyone lives in his own mind, doesn't it?
The thing is, is that I think that empirically I think we could say that in the long run they wouldn't bring order, but what you're giving there is the power of gold-directed prayer.
These guys pray gold-directedly, and it's a very powerful prayer, just like mass prayer was a mass prayer, just like it registered in the egg experiment that they were going to crash.
Something has to counter that.
If we get more millions of people praying the way they're praying, the people who are praying holy blessing prayers won't have a chance.
It makes one seem every bit as powerful as the other, or it makes it seem just an undirected until directed power and available for everybody for whatever goal or motive you might have in mind, whether it be good or bad, subjectively.
Whatever person learns about the research that we're doing, other people are doing, they can take the research, and according to how they're put together and their moral makeup, they're going to use it for good or bad.
They were trespassing in a realm of consciousness?
unidentified
That's right.
When the Europeans came over to America, there was resistance.
And I think that their work brought them to a point where their presence, their conscious presence, was noticed by some kind of entity and more than likely wasn't welcomed.
I believe that when you get involved in things that are very creative and very new and very innovative, you find this wall of resistance that comes up against you.
And something like this, it could affect all humanity to discover something else.
That may be too much for a person to take, and it could actually have detrimental effects.
probably haunting you this way since it occurred hasn't yet and i think i don't um...
i'm going to give you some of the quotes that people told me that i don't know Good morning.
I'm Art Bell.
unidentified
Falling in love was the last thing I had on my mind.
Holding you is a warmth that I thought I could never find Just trying to decide I'll stay by your side I know I'm fine I just can't find the answer to the question Keep going through my mind Baby Isn't it time It's your time
to wait Falling in constant to your mistakes Isn't it time It's your time to wait No love now No love now No love now I can still be safe You're the way to change You're
the way to change Listen to the wind blow down the ground tonight.
In the shadow, make the shadow.
And stand in the dark and the light And if you don't love me now You'll never love me again I can still hear you say it I can never make a chance of it If you don't love me now You'll never love me again I can still hear
you say it I can never make a chance of it Want to take a ride?
To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell from East to the Rockies, call toll-free 800-825-5033.
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From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
It's a strange and cautionary tale that Bill Sweet is telling.
A tale of the Klingbiles, who experimented extensively with prayer, consciousness, directed thought, and ended up committing suicide in a bizarre and puzzling way.
It tells the whole Spindrift story, and they have lame experiments.
And you mentioned Agents of Science or Satan earlier.
Well, I have a whole chapter that is actually titled that, and it's the documented incidents where people came after Spindrift.
I mean, I could have said more that I couldn't have documented, but those are all documented ones that would help show what actually happened, how people reacted to us.
I mean, Chicago is, you know, a pretty, it's an urban liberal kind of environment that you wouldn't think would pay as much attention to this sort of thing as, oh, for example, let's say a smaller town in Oregon where, gosh, people might be much more fundamental about their beliefs.
That particular issue aside, it seemed impossible, and yet they did it.
And I wonder if that can be applied to equally amazing things that just seemed the odds were so far against it, and yet a small but relatively determined group had their way.
Because what happens in research is that it seems that you're able to get these things to work a few times, and then the resistance out there in consciousness, the defense mechanisms of the mind, et cetera, get to work.
And don't let it happen again because then it can be proven.
It's okay, you can have this happen once or twice or something.
But if you can actually prove there's a law operating here in consciousness, well, they don't want that.
And that is what is remarkable about what you're saying.
I think that there has to be something that big, enough people working on it, to actually push it over.
Because we find, all parapsychologists will tell you this, that it's hard to replicate something after a certain point.
You get too many people thinking about it or interfering with it or whatever.
But maybe it all does tie together in the sense that mass consciousness may be the one thing we'll be able to show has a paranormal effect.
And we hope it also has some spiritual effects for good, too.
It may be the one thing.
If we get everybody thinking in a certain way, we hope in a good way, then we can see things happen that are undeniable and consistently.
You've given me the idea that maybe more parapsychologists should be on the radio broadcasting around the world and get everybody to cooperate with them.
Well, look, even the people involved in the experimentation at Princeton admitted to me and the world when they were on that, look, we don't want any publicity.
This is one of the other discoveries of Spindrift, that you've got to have a way So, that people aren't interfering with it.
And the only way around that is that when you do your experiments, you don't tell people when you're doing them.
You just have a few people involved.
And also, you might pray where it's not being defended.
For instance, like we had somebody that was praying about starving children, it wouldn't do any good to pray about starving children, but we had some people in Spindrift that were working with starving children.
And instead of praying for that, because all the world thought was on these starving children, that wouldn't do any good, they prayed about the milk.
They prayed about milk, and they didn't know what the effect would be.
But what the effect was is that they were able to have the milk last longer and be preserved longer.
And the reason was the milk was undefended.
Nobody was thinking about milk.
That's a strange thing to pray about.
Now that I said that, people pray about the milk, and too many people will be thinking about that.
Then you've got to go someplace else that's undefended.
And Art, and the theme of going for it, I had a custom t-shirt made for a big festival, and it said, mental masturbation, possession or garden of Eden.
I know that people, for example, with brain tumors, one very common side effect of a brain tumor, Bill, is that the victim smells things that aren't really there, very strong, very strong smells.
I had a quick comment I wanted to make about something I noticed in the news recently that's kind of scary and seems to fit into this entire motif that we've been talking about tonight.
Okay.
I don't know if you noticed, but the Sony Corporation actually took out a patent this week on an experiment they've been working on, which beams radio waves into a subject's brain and elicits responses such as smell, sight, and sound.
Now, when you really think about it, in a way, that's kind of like a mind control application.
And you know how you can talk about how the conscience and intent can be used outwardly to affect things?
Yes.
For the first time ever, we have an actual corporation that filed a patent to use that same very system to actually affect it the opposite direction to affect someone's mind.
It kind of reminded me of that point I heard about the games he mentioned.
They found out that when people would start doing a crossword puzzle in the newspaper in the afternoon, that it was real hard, and they were watching people and monitoring it, watching people.
And then as it got toward evening, more and more people were doing it, and it became easier.
And as it went on to the night, the people who did it later at night were getting and moving faster and figuring out the things.
The theory being that as more people figured this out, it was setting out a field again, and it was enhancing, kind of like the hunter with the monkey.
Unfortunately, the cold, hard truth about the whole matter is we cannot save the world that does not have the desire to be saved.
And let me preface that with the three elements that I believe is what Bill is mentioning here is that it contains the free will and intent and effect.
Now, Art, I know you're fond of time travel or effect of time, and when you've got to preface that, you must think about how the future of events of time and how they unfold.
And that's why precognitive people don't always have a real good high capacity or percentage of accuracy when they try to predict the outcomes, because free will dictates as far as what the outcome of events will become.
Well, here's a thought I picked on and what he said.
According to neuroscientists now, and according to this article I brought up early about U.S. Newsome Report, it could be that almost all free will is a myth.
Well, I think that what would happen is that as we become creative thinkers and original thinkers and really work on that, we can find end ways to run around the stuff that is telling us what to do.
That's why we need creative thought.
That's why we have to be open.
And that's why we have to expect the unexpected and not get into routines where we're run by our education, our culture, and our unconscious minds.
Oh, I think that a person, we're trying to establish in our research that one person praying for one object, one experiment, you can show an interrelationship there going on, an interaction.
We believe that that prayerful interaction can be shown.
As you kept up right away, you said, well, where does this field go?
Does it go out and affect other things?
It can't be isolated enough that it's not going out and affecting everything else.
I think everything does affect everything else.
Everything is an input.
But I think, too, that prayer can be individualistic, and I think that's what the caller is talking about.
You know, kind of like some weapons the military is developing right now, they have these new weapons that they can't figure out how to use because it affects the guy who pulls the trigger.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bill Sweet.
Good morning.
unidentified
How are you doing, gentlemen?
Okay.
Well, it's kind of a religious belief that two things of all religions always exist.
One is thou shalt not kill, of course.
And the other aspect, you know, except for Buddha, because Buddha is one-to-one.
But two or more are gathered in my name.
You know, I am present.
So do you think possibly, I'm sorry, Bill, that, I mean, was it your understanding that because you said they didn't necessarily believe in God, yet they were very spiritual people?
do you think they're trying to do what the catholic church has always denied in order to link science and basically i i suppose and today's life the regular person Yes.
At any rate, Bill, this has been an incredibly interesting night that I've spent with you over this whole affair.
And I guess, as you said in your book, it has shaped your life to the degree that perhaps you would have had a happier life if you never had been involved, but not as interesting and intriguing a life.