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Nov. 13, 2004 - Art Bell
02:53:03
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Fred Alan Wolf - Time Travel
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Time Text
So, we're going to go ahead and get started. So, let's get started. So, we're going to
get started.
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good
morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world, prolific time zones, every
one of them covered by this program, Coast to Coast AM.
I'm Art Bell, it is my privilege and honor to escort you through the darkness, the dark hours, of another weekend.
Yes, the weekend again.
How's it feel to be off for the weekend?
I assume the majority of you are.
We are going to be talking to a theoretical physicist in the next hour about time travel.
Now, those of you who heard the pre-feed, I think heard a theoretical physicist I had on last week who was, um, let's see, I'll choose my words carefully, he was cautious, he was perhaps a bit negative on some of the I don't know whether you'd call it fringe.
You really wouldn't call it fringe stuff for a theoretical physicist, as far as I know.
You wouldn't, would you?
Time travel?
At any rate, this night, Dr. Fred Alan Wolff is very up on time travel.
He, too, is a theoretical physicist.
You know, it's one of my favorite... No, it is my favorite topic.
Time travel is my favorite topic.
So I thought I would ask you in this first hour to comment on a question I have.
It's maybe the most basic, simple question about time and time travel there is.
And that is, is time real?
Is it real?
Or is time simply an invention of man who has learned to measure between, you know, the motion of two things?
And if time is real, that is to say, it's a real thing beyond our concoction of measurement, and it would seem like it has a possibility of being so, because events do occur, right?
Things happen to you in your life in a chain that goes forward, inexorably forward, for the moment.
So is it real?
Or is it our makeup?
It does seem like there's time.
We all have a measured amount of time in our lives and so forth and so on, right?
You could point to a million things, but in the end, you still don't know if it's real.
And if it is real, will there be travel within it possible?
God, is that fascinating!
Now, this is the following is something I think you should hear If you haven't heard it yet, you sure as heck ought to hear it, and I guess there's going to be a 60 minutes piece all about it on Sunday, so you might want to watch for that.
The headline is, Former Head of CIA's Osama Bin Laden Unit says the Al-Qaeda leader has secured religious approval to use a nuclear bomb against Americans.
Here it is.
Osama Bin Laden now has religious approval to use a nuclear device against Americans, according to the former head of the CIA unit charged with tracking down the Saudi terrorists.
So this guy ought to know, right?
He was with the CIA until, like, days ago.
The former agent, Michael Schur, I believe it is, speaks to Steve Kroft in his first televised interview without disguise.
To be broadcast on 60 Minutes, Sunday, November 14th.
At CBS, of course.
Shurer was, until recently, known as the, quote, anonymous, end quote, author of two books, critical of the West's response to Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda.
The most recent of which is titled, Imperial Hubris, Why the West is losing the war on terror.
No one in the West knows more about the Al-Qaeda leader than Shurer, who has tracked him since the mid-1980s.
Boy, would I like that interview.
The CIA allowed him to write the books, provided he remain anonymous.
But now, now they're allowing him to reveal himself for the first time on Sunday's broadcast.
He formerly Uh, leaves the agency today.
Well, that would have been, I guess, yesterday.
No, that was, uh, Friday in this time zone.
So, just out of the CIA today.
Uh, well, yesterday now.
Even if Bin Laden had a nuclear weapon, he probably would not have used it for lack of proper religious authority.
Authority he now has.
Bin Laden has secured it from a Saudi sheikh.
A rather long treatise on the possibility of using nuclear weapons against the Americans says Shura.
The treatise found that he was perfectly within his rights to use them.
Muslims argue that the United States is responsible for millions of dead Muslims around the world, so reciprocity would mean you could kill millions of Americans.
Shura says Bin Laden was criticized by Muslims, some Muslims anyway, for the 9-11 attack because he killed so many people in it without enough warning and before offering to help convert them to Islam.
But now, now Bin Laden has addressed the American people and he's given fair warning.
Their intention is to End the war as soon as they can, and to ratchet up the pain for the Americans until we get out of their region.
If they acquire the weapon, they will use it, he said, whether it's chemical, biological, or some sort of nuclear weapon.
And now, as you've got to listen to this guy, he was head until Friday of the CIA's effort to catch Bin Laden, so you've got to listen to this guy.
he says they will use it.
Let's see...
uh...
As the head of the CIA unit charged with tracking Bin Laden from 1996 to 1999, he says he never had enough people to do the job correctly.
He blames former CIA Director George Tenet and says, one of the questions that should have been asked of Mr. Tenet was why Were there always enough people for the Public Relations Office, for the Academic Outreach Office, for the Diversity and Multicultural Office?
All of those things are admirable and necessary, he said, but none of them are protecting the American people from a foreign threat.
And the threat posed by Bin Laden is also underestimated, says Schur.
Quote, I think our leaders over the last decade have done the American people A disservice continuing to characterize Osama Bin Laden as a thug or a gangster, he said.
Until we respect him, sir, we are going to die in numbers that are probably unnecessary.
Yes, he is a very talented man and a very worthy opponent.
This is a quote now from somebody now out of the CIA.
You know, a lot of people think that Osama bin Laden has a nuclear device.
That he has purchased one, and God knows there were enough nuclear devices running around in the old Soviet Union, and you know, they were very hungry for money, so the possibility that he would have one would be pretty fair, I would say, wouldn't you?
And you have to wonder, I do wonder, if a nuclear device should be detonated In a U.S.
city.
It'd probably be Manhattan, perhaps Washington D.C.
or L.A., but probably more bang for the buck in Manhattan because it's so packed in.
Wherever it would be in any case.
I'm wondering what you all think the U.S.
government would do if that occurred.
Now, remember, every nuclear weapon has a A signature that will tell the tale of exactly where it was made.
The materials used and very likely exactly where it was made.
So, if a nuclear device goes off and destroys an American city, and you can't rule out the possibility, particularly after this story, you're going to want to watch 60 Minutes on Sunday.
What do you think the U.S.
would do?
what would our response be?
Are you?
you You know, I'm not saying time travel is possible or impossible.
I'm still trying to make up my mind about that.
I hope it is, but the way the world is going right now...
People with biological things that could take us all out.
People with nuclear weapons that could take out entire cities.
A day may come when we could use a little travel, huh?
Our U.S.
military officials, looking briefly here at the rest of the world, said Saturday that American troops had now occupied the entire city of Fallujah.
And there were no more major concentrations of insurgents still fighting after nearly a week of intense urban combat.
That's what it was, too.
Told you it was going to be door-to-door.
Indeed, it was.
A U.S.
officer speaking on condition of anonymity said that Fluger was, quote, occupied but not subdued, end quote.
Vice President Dick Cheney went into the hospital, thought he might have heart trouble again.
He's had a lot of it, of course, but he didn't.
He had just a bad cold.
In the other news, the jury that convicted Scott Peterson saw a man with two faces in public, a loving father, to be with a steady job, stable home, missed nice guy, right in private, though a cheating husband who Yearn for bachelorhood to the degree that he was willing to kill his wife and his unborn baby.
You know, there are so many murders in the U.S.
that I do wonder why one of them, like this one, captures the American attention the way it does.
What is it that causes, you know, that magic click?
I mean, there are just endless, endless Awful murders that occur every day in cities all across the U.S.
and yet we pick up on one and follow it, you know, right down to the very last detail.
I don't know why.
More than 70 U.S.
soldiers from Iraq were flown Saturday to military hospitals in Germany.
Those would be the wounded.
A teenager accused of planning to supply a Somalian terrorist group with night vision goggles and bulletproof vests faces charges.
He had some sort of, I'm going to take over the world complex, I guess, and was going to begin in Somalia, where things didn't go so well for us last time we were there.
Californians will soon see advertisements urging them to give Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and other foreign-born citizens a chance to run for president!
Well... I wonder how you feel about that.
The Governor of California would be a very strong contender, wouldn't he, for the office of the presidency?
But just one little detail, of course, and that is that he's foreign-born.
So, should that change?
Do you think that will change?
One other item before we check the phones, and this will be open lines.
The New York Times broke the media's silence on the cause of Arafat's death Friday by suggesting the terrorist leader may have died of AIDS.
In an article entitled, Secrecy by AIDS and Silence by Doctors Persists and What Killed Arafat is Still a Mystery, the paper chronicled Arafat's rapid health decline and the mystery shrouding his illness.
The paper reported, Even after Yasser Arafat's death this morning, French health officials continued their stony silence about what killed him.
And so the man who lived so much of his life simply and in the public eye died very mysteriously, surrounded by secrecy.
If there was an autopsy, we don't know how it came out.
If there was AIDS, they're not talking.
There are other possibilities, liver disease, last stage, end stage cancer, and of course AIDS, any of them possible.
Plus, you know, he was getting on in age anyway, so...
But the New York Times is suggesting a strong possibility of AIDS.
And then, of course, prior to that, there was another rumor, one that I kind of grabbed onto when I heard it, too.
I thought, the Israelis, you know, would they have slipped him a poison if they could have?
Well, certainly they regarded him as a stumbling block toward a possibility of peace, right?
So they might have They might have had motive.
I mean, if you were a cop looking for a motive, you might look at the Israelis.
But apparently not.
And possibly even AIDS.
And I guess there's something about the French, I mean, something more about the French, and that is that they're very private.
They will not disclose.
Could that be the reason that he was flown to Paris in the first place?
Paris of all places.
You wouldn't think Paris, would you?
Nevertheless, that is where he was taken, that's where he passed, and that's where the secret of why he died and how he died shall apparently remain.
Let us take a few phone calls.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
Top of the morning to you.
Hi Art.
Hi.
I said this soon after 9-11 that if any Muslim terrorist comes to this country with a weapon of mass destruction, We should put them on notice right now.
We should put them on notice right after 9-11 that if any Muslim does that, they can kiss Mecca and Medina goodbye and we'll glow in the dark for the next 10,000 years.
Not only that, but I voted for Kerry for what might be considered an off-the-wall reason.
I don't think Bush is fighting this war as an all-out war.
It strikes me that he's fighting two holding actions, one in Iraq and one in Afghanistan.
In World War II, we had 80 divisions.
I don't know why we don't have an all-out recruitment effort, if not a draft, and have armies all over the world occupying these countries and hunting these scum down and exterminating them before they exterminate us.
Well, I guess to some degree that is what we're doing in Iraq.
We are exterminating before we are exterminated, right?
And we're certainly doing that in Afghanistan.
You know, the case for Iraq is weaker in my mind but certainly we have done that in Afghanistan but the prospect again of a nuclear device going off in a US city is horrifying but it seems to me after reading this story and you can fill yourself in and decide on the credibility of the man on Sunday by watching 60 minutes but I mean this is a fellow who just on Friday
left the position of being the chief honcho in the CIA hunting down bin laden so he ought to know and you know some of what he's saying here obviously is horrifying that now apparently now Allah or God or whatever has said okay it's okay to nuke the americans permission given from on high and and he does say that without that Even if they had had an atomic weapon, they could not have used it.
Not that many.
In fact, even 9-11 apparently was pushing it in terms of killing the ones that have not been given a chance to convert.
That was the upshot of what he said.
You're going to want to catch that.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Mr. Bell.
Yes, Mr. Collar, how are you doing?
Marcus from Kendall City.
Yes, Marcus.
I've spoken to you, it's been at least a couple of years.
What a privilege it is to get on with you again.
Glad you're here.
What's up?
Well, I've spoken to Linda before and most, all the other guests that hosted the show.
And specifically, exactly what you're just talking about, also coming on, your guest tonight too, a question about that.
First, I was on there with Linda a few years back.
And I didn't make a prediction, but I did say on air, I was fearful of a nuclear attack on the city of America.
And I don't really feel that now.
What I'm concerned about now is, I knew it when we went into Kuwait, and now we're in Iraq, with a lot, with our best troops positioned in small areas.
Two, maybe three nuclear devices could devastate our army.
And that's what I'm concerned about.
Well, not a bomb here, but a bomb located on our troops.
Actually, it's a very, very good point, sir.
You're right.
Now, of course, the car bombs are going off on a regular basis now, and we know there's no shortage of people who are willing to give their lives.
In fact, one of the recent diplomats who was wounded in Iraq, he was in a convoy and He was hit by a car bomb and then interviewed later and his one comment was, as he sat there in his hospital bed, that he was amazed that there were so many numbers of people willing to give their lives to set off a car bomb and extinguish their own lives in the process.
So, certainly, if he's got a bomb, there will be no shortage of people willing to stand next to it and push the button.
Forget timers!
They don't need timers, they've got people who... It would be, I'm sure, in the eyes of our enemy, a glorious way to go.
You know, push the button on a big one, right?
So now they've received religious approval to do exactly that.
To drop a bomb, to bring a bomb in, to set a bomb off in a large American City, oh my god, it's the bottom of the hour and we'll be right back.
I keep hearing you're concerned about my happiness But all I thought you'd given me is conscience, I guess Subscribe to the After Dark newsletter online at www.coasttocoastam.com
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From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Gosh, you know, most of us, I think, are old enough to...
Heh.
To recall the terror of the Cold War.
Remember that?
If you're really old enough, as a kid, you got under your desk and put your hands over the back of your neck and all the rest of that.
It was a horror, alright, the end of the world.
We were stalked, they were stalked, and it was horrible.
But now, now everybody nearly has one.
And certainly those people who hate us and are willing to give their lives in the effort to kill as many of us as possible, Well, if they don't have one yet, you know they're gonna
have one soon, and you know they're gonna use it.
**thunder** Are you-
**music** Pretty weird to think of the, you know, the good old days
as those days when we could have erased each other, and at least there was the balance, you know, of mutual
assured destruction and equal terror, and, huh, it makes what we have today look not so bad,
frankly.
I mean, today we've got nuclear weapons in lots of different hands, we've got biologicals that could just roar across the land, And chemicals and various other weapons of mass terror.
Incredible.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
Good morning.
Good morning, Art.
How you doing, sir?
Joe Spiffy, what's up?
Are you enjoying your snowstorm?
Snowstorm?
I thought it was snowing in Vegas.
No.
Who told you that?
I saw it this morning on the weather channel, but at any rate... No, a little snow up on the 11,900 foot mountain.
And I've got a cat right on my computer.
Go away.
I thought I had a huge storm in Vegas right now.
If it's snowing in Vegas, well look, it's 45.7 degrees here, and Las Vegas is roughly at the same altitude, so I have my doubts.
10-4, buddy.
Well look here, I had my container checked that came in at Savannah about a week and a half ago.
You had a container come in at Savannah?
Yes, from the South, from the Middle East.
I think from the Middle East, from China.
China.
And they ran a radiation detector through it.
What were you importing?
Fireworks.
You're a fireworks importer?
Yes.
Wow.
Okay.
And about a month ago, I believe, they were checking from the Holland Tunnel different vehicles with radiation detectors also.
Good.
So, evidently this man, but look here, just how big would a nuclear device have to be to kill 100,000 people?
That'd be a pretty good sized bomb.
Not that big.
They've got one kiloton suitcase type bombs, I believe, so it wouldn't have to be that big, sir.
That's more like a tactical weapon there, isn't it?
Uh, detonated in a place like New York City, the casualty number would be far above a hundred thousand, I can assure you.
Well, I guess we can expect that next, huh?
Well, you know, nobody, including me, especially me, wants to think that, uh, that's what we can expect, but you, on the other hand, you've got to be realistic.
And, um, God, I, you know, I, all the signs are the very worst.
They've got the people willing to give their lives.
They've got, Probably the technology.
Now they've got permission from the religious leaders, kind of like, you know, God said, yeah.
So, yeah, I guess, you know, it seems likely.
Yeah, I'm going to have to check out in 60 minutes.
By all means.
Yeah, by all means.
Because, I mean, there's a guy who was in charge of the program to catch Bin Laden, head of the CIA in that department.
He sure ought to know.
So, we better listen carefully, Sunday night, and we better heed what he says.
What we can do about it, I don't know.
I really don't know.
If they did set off a nuclear weapon here, and we have definitive information about where it came from, I suppose there could be a nuclear response, but that could start World War III, right?
So, I don't know.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Kathy from Woodbridge, NJ.
Let's just say, for the sake of saying it, that a nuclear device was set somewhere in an American city, and God forbid, annihilated plenty of people, and contaminated all the borders.
What would this man think we were going to do about it?
We'd probably annihilate not just cripple Fallujah, we'd probably level the damn place, Radiate all of Syria?
Does he really want that to happen to his people?
Does anybody really want that?
I mean, look, we don't even know.
Look what we're doing to this place in Baghdad, in Fallujah, and all the places.
Look what we're doing to it, based on a hunch, and a bunch of bad CIA reports, and no friggin' proof at all, as of yet.
No weapons of mass destruction.
But we're tearin' ass over there.
There's no electricity.
Christ, Art, it's like One of those things that used to tell me about 1998, God forbid it happens over here.
Well, God forbid it's happening over there!
I mean, for God's sake, when do we ever stop placating a war based on what if?
Because when the if happens, what the hell are we going to do, Art?
Blow the whole damn world up afterwards?
I know, I know.
Art, it's gotten to, you know...
Your shows don't scare me anymore, Art, because I'm already scared.
Good for you.
You have good reason to be.
It's unbelievable.
Yeah, you have good reason to be.
And as I said at the beginning of the show, you know, I don't know about time travel, but the way the world's going right now, we might need it.
You know, if it's possible to erase something that occurred in the past, we may soon need that ability.
They've time-traveled here.
They've told me.
I wrote you a letter about what they told me, and they told me they don't want no part of this.
They've given us warning enough times, and they said, enough already.
You people are too thick.
You're not listening.
We're too warlike.
We are?
We are too warlike.
I don't know what we want from people, but we are not.
When the hell was the last time you kicked the crap out of somebody?
And they really got up and respected you.
It really doesn't happen.
It only happens in the John Wayne movies.
It's not in real life.
And Osama?
I wish in the next tape he'd speak the good English that he was taught over here, because the man can speak perfect English.
Kathy, I appreciate the call.
Thank you.
I really agree with a lot of what she said.
If it happens, what are we going to do?
Really, what are we going to do?
I mean, if some atomic weapon makes it, I don't know, from, let us say, Russia, as an example, into the hands of Osama Bin Laden through whatever Crazy route it might take.
Who are we going to blow up?
Of course then, on the other hand, 9-11 occurred and we did invade and now occupy Iraq.
I don't know.
Some people consider that a rational response and some people do not.
Certainly, what occurred in Afghanistan was rational.
I'm not sure that rational extends to Iraq and I have no idea what we would do if one of our cities was blown up There would be a very large response, you can bet, of some sort.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hi.
Hi.
Well, okay, this is really depressing.
Yes.
Okay, common sense would say that other than preventing 9-11, which I think was highly preventable, If it happened, what we should have done was to do a police action, go after Osama Bin Laden per se, and his group.
The Taliban were not Al-Qaeda.
And we shouldn't have stopped dead in our tracks and veered off to Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9-11.
And someone who was interviewed on one of your programs, it might have been either George's or I can't think of her name now, I'm sorry.
Barbara?
Barbara.
Interviewed a guy who made a very smart comment, I think.
He said he thought that the reason that Bush didn't catch Osama bin Laden is that if he had, the American public would never have allowed him to invade Iraq, which is what he always wanted to do.
It was much more important to him than catching Osama bin Laden.
He's even said that.
So, I can't, you know, and I couldn't believe it when When it was realized that the sealed depot that the International Atomic Energy people had sealed, that had been telling us over and over again to keep watch over it, that it had been plundered, and it had triggering chemicals for nuclear weapons in there,
Meanwhile, we haven't done anything meaningful about North Korea, which may have already started selling weapons.
Yes.
And probably Pakistan is selling nuclear weapons.
So, you know, here we are.
Frankly, I don't think there's anything we can do.
And it's just hopeless.
And I really think that the dumb, warlike people in the world, most, you know, in our government is being run by people like that.
Are going to kill us off before we ever have a chance to become civilized enough to not do that sort of thing anymore.
I really do.
Listen, I appreciate your point of view and thank you for calling.
Right.
She got to say what she wanted to say and there's a lot of it I agree with, frankly.
As you know, prior to the war I was very much against it because I couldn't figure out why we were doing it.
I refer to the war with Iraq.
And I still don't have it figured out.
Yes, there's oil, and yes, he was a real bad guy.
And yes, I suppose we thought there could have been weapons of mass destruction there, although that's very suspect now.
The intel on that is.
At the time, I guess legitimately there could have been a fear of weapons of mass destruction, Short of that, the weapons part, I don't see the rationale for invading.
Yes, it's good to have strategic bases located in Iraq in the middle of the Middle East.
I guess all of that is a positive thing, and yes, we are rampaging through Fallujah at the moment, and But then, on the other hand, you can make a rational argument that we're also making mortal enemies, more mortal enemies, ones who would be willing to sacrifice themselves to kill as many Americans as possible.
So I don't know.
It's a very complicated world we live in today.
International Line, you're on air.
Hello.
Hey, my name's Dave.
I'm from Tumwater, Washington.
Hi, Dave.
Hey, uh, we were just listening, my girlfriend, I apologize for the poor quality, uh, we're on a cell phone on my way to work here, but, uh, when we were listening to your show, we both thought of the, uh, idea here of a, uh, nuclear warhead being set up on American soil, like, the most dangerous place would probably be, you know, uh, over there at, uh, Yellowstone Park.
Oh, yes.
Almost act like it's a primer.
Well, it would be a perhaps geo-effective place, thank you.
But, you know, the terrorists certainly don't know that a nuclear device ignited in the Yellow Zone area would precipitate the catastrophe that otherwise might occur 10,000 years from now.
place in Manhattan? Well, it would be a perhaps geo-effective place, thank you.
But, you know, the terrorists certainly don't know that a nuclear device ignited in the Yellowstone area would precipitate
the catastrophe that otherwise might occur 10,000 years from
now. They couldn't be sure, and if it didn't work, and there's a good chance it
would not work.
Maybe a better chance that it would not work than it would.
And then they would be largely wasting their one shot, right?
I'm trying to think as they would think.
Which is, in a lot of ways, a horrible thing to have to do.
Where would you get the most bang for the buck?
If you had a, say, a one kiloton nuclear device.
Answer?
Probably Manhattan.
I don't know.
But I think we're really facing that possibility.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hello.
Hi.
Turn your radio off, sir.
That's always number one.
And tell us who you are and first name only and where.
No, no, no.
Down, not up.
There you go.
There it is.
What is your first name?
Mike.
Mike.
Mike, welcome to the program.
Where are you?
I'm in Los Angeles.
Okie doke.
What's up?
Well, I got a couple of things to say about this Osama thing.
I don't think he would have said anything, giving us any warning or anything like that, unless he had things pre-positioned.
So I believe that he actually has nuclear weapons or whatnot pre-positioned in this country, and he was just waiting to get his religious leaders back in.
If that would be true, then you have to imagine it could be any day, any hour.
Yeah, that's pretty much it.
I mean, I'm all prepared.
I went out and got myself You know, those mop-level gear and gas masks and all that stuff.
So I guess you'd call me paranoid, but I really am prepared.
Well, nothing wrong with being prepared.
That's for darn sure.
Yeah.
And then the other thing that I think really bothers me is a couple of callers called in and said that, oh, you know, we're warlike.
Well, we are.
We are.
And I don't really believe that we're warlike, but I do.
Listen, it's I don't think that it's all that awful a thing to admit, but if you look back on the history of the United States, in fact, nearly every great power that's dominated the world at some point or another, they've all been kind of warlike.
Well, that gets to my point.
It's sort of like the essence of the universe is violence, and whether or not it's like righteous violence or evil violence is kind of immaterial, because it's based on the perspective of the people involved.
Sometimes how righteous the violence is just simply depends on which side of the bullet you're on.
Exactly.
I think the actual nature and essence of the universe is violence.
I mean, when you look at how the universe was created, it was created in an act of violence when it exploded.
And, you know, if you look up and down the food chain, vegetarians, they eat living plants.
I mean, that could be considered violent to the plant for getting eaten.
So I think that this is just the natural state of things that there is violence
Inherent in the universe and that it's not something that we should disembrace or embrace because it's just part of
nature Well, maybe it is true sir that as we evolve if we continue
to evolve At some point maybe we've you know evolve away from
violence, but that moment has not yet come or Or even close.
And we are, look, we are to a degree, without apology, a warlike people.
We are not The American people are not a turn-your-cheek kind of people.
They're kind of, I-see-them-more-as-a-don't-tread-on-me kind of people, or at least that's the way I've always felt about us.
East of the Rockies, you're on air.
Hello.
Yeah, all right.
Turn your radio off, please.
And your first name is?
Scotty, from the Starship.
Yes, sir.
You talked about time travel, and whether or not there's actually a constant in time.
Actually, my first question was, what is time?
I'm going to ask my guest that, but I thought I'd give some of you a chance to try and answer it.
What is time?
The only accurate time clock there really is is the planetary positioning of the planet.
They're always in a certain position in any given time.
Well, there are other ways to measure the passage of time, nuclear decay and so forth, I suppose, but measuring the movement of planets and one object's movement versus another's, and the speed differential and so forth, that's all time.
Well, if you go back in time and you look at the events that have happened,
there's always been some sort of celestial event close to it, or right on the time.
Um, close to it? You've lost me.
There's a celestial event close to what?
Yeah, either there's a comet going by or the planets are in a certain position.
When what?
When events in, say, like 9-11.
When 9-11 happened, there were comets that were happening just before it.
Oh, well, listen, American natives thought, and a lot of people continue to think to this day and age, that comets foretell something about to occur.
It's absolutely true.
It certainly is true that the passage of a comet, a comet rather, even a close passage, foretells an event that's about to happen.
On the other hand, I don't know if I, you know, if I really believe That that's true or not, there are a lot of comets up there that take a passage, a swing, some of them between the Sun and the Earth, some very close.
And whether actually there has been one at every major event as you track back through history or not, I suppose you can try and sort of prove it all in reverse and go back through events and find, say, well look, that was there!
And so the following must be true, I don't know.
One thing I do know, this is not the age of Aquarius.
Nor even close.
It would have been nice, huh?
That age had come and there really had been peace and no more war?
This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius.
Age of Aquarius!
Be it sight, sound, smell, or touch, the sun think.
Inside that we need so much.
The sight of a touch, or the scent of the sand, or the strength of an oak that moves deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
And all these things in our memories are And they use them to come to mind
Life, right where she's at Take this place, off this trip
Just hold me, right here Oh
Wanna take a ride?
To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
with Art Bell call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1295.
To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free 800-825-5033.
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From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Guaranteed winner coming right up.
Dr. Fred Allen Wolfe is about to be here.
He's a physicist, a writer, a lecturer, who earned his Ph.D.
in theoretical physics from UCLA in 1963.
He has taught at the University of London, the University of Paris, the Hahn-Meltner Institute for Nuclear Physics in Berlin, the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and San Diego State University.
So, he's certainly been around.
Dr. Wolfe's fascination with the world of physics began one afternoon when he was a child at a local matinee and saw a newsreel.
Remember the newsreels at movies?
Well, he saw a newsreel of the world's first atomic explosion.
And I guess the lightbulb ignited.
After receiving his PhD in theoretical physics, he began researching the field of high atmospheric particle behavior following a nuclear explosion.
He's going to fit in well tonight in view of what we've been talking about.
He is well known for his simplification of the new physics, And is perhaps best known as the author of Taking the Quantum Leap.
Dr. Wolf continues to write lecture throughout the world.
He conducts research on the relationship of quantum physics to consciousness.
So, here comes a very, very, very good program.
Take a seat.
Dr. Wolff, it is wonderful to have you back on the program.
Well, thank you very much, Art.
It's a pleasure to be back on the show and a pleasure to hear your voice again.
All right, we have so much we can talk about.
Apparently all this, or your interest, began when you saw the detonation of the world's first atomic bomb.
Is that really right?
Yeah, it was kind of like a double explosion.
I'm just pre-puberty at this stage.
Whammo, I'm going to get both ends.
It really was a very stimulating event.
From that moment on, I was enraptured with physics.
I just wanted to be a physicist.
I thought, anybody that can handle that kind of power must have some unusual abilities.
Yes, unusual abilities indeed, and you now actually, I guess, possess those abilities.
If you had to make an atomic weapon, would you be able to do it?
Well, I don't know how to do it at this stage, although I understand the principles of what an atomic weapon does, and I've worked for a time at the Lawrence Radiation Laboratory, I learned some of the principles of both fusion and fission devices.
So I also know something about the Teller H-Bomb and how it works.
But, you know, my learning and my understanding of that goes back to the 60s when I was working towards my Ph.D.
in plasma physics and worried about controlled thermonuclear fusion and how it can be used for peaceful ways to get energy.
So, in terms of my knowledge today, I'm sure the sophistication and the engineering know-how that goes into making a weapon is far more developed than it was in those days.
Does it seem likely to you, Professor, that... I mean, you did hear the story I read about the religious permission now given to Benoit.
Yes, yes.
It is disturbing, of course.
Does it seem very likely to you that a nuclear device may be loose and that Well, that's the first question.
That one may be loose, out of either the Soviet's control, or I don't know, Pakistan, or our control, or whoever in the world now, North Korea, for example.
Who knows where they all are, but do you think they're all accounted for?
Well, that's very hard to say, isn't it?
We don't even know how many there are, so whether they're all accounted for or not, I'm not sure if anybody has an actual count.
But in terms of being able to explode one and get one working and do all that, I think it would take a lot more scientific know-how than just exploding an ordinary weapons explosive type of bomb.
It seems to me that the kind of things you need to do and that the kind of technology that you need implies a kind of very special effect You have to make something happen very quickly in a very symmetrical way, and that's not always easy to do.
We can talk about it, anybody can bid one, but it's probably a lot more difficult than most people would even dream of.
You do understand then, without question, the basics, though, of how it's achieved.
Yeah, basically I do.
Certainly, if they do get their hands on one, if Al Qaeda does, they will, without question, use it.
If they will explode car bombs and take their own life in doing so, then I suppose, from their point of view, the honor of detonating a big one in an American city wouldn't be hard to talk someone into it.
Well, it'd be very difficult, in my opinion, to get one into an American city by any kind of normal means.
And it would be difficult to bring it in piecewise and then assemble it in an American city without causing some activity in the rather sensitive detection apparatuses, apparati, I would say, that now exist in most of the cities.
We're pretty sensibly able to detect stuff like that.
And radiation detection has become a great art, much, much more refined than it was years and years ago.
I hope you're right.
Well, I really believe I am.
I think that we really shouldn't start multiplying fear upon fear just because somebody says they can do something or maybe threaten such a thing as that.
We've had one terrible accident, one terrible incident, I mean, and that's, of course, the Twin Towers and, of course, all that stuff that happened before.
But that was really devastating to us, and I think that it's permanently Maybe you've made our psyches running in the fear mode far more often.
However, I do have to tell you something, and this is on the reverse of what I just said.
Maybe it was the same thing that's running the rest of the country right now in terms of the fear mode.
I dreamt of being in an atomic explosion and seeing it go off.
And this was even, I don't know if it's because of the thing I saw in the newsreel.
Or what, but I really had this terrible feeling that I was going to be living through something like that.
So whether that's a forerunner of what's coming, I hope not, but it's the kind of dream that a young kid might have.
Well, let's see, I think I reached you on the 415 area code.
That would be the San Francisco Bay Area, right?
That would be the San Francisco Bay Area, right.
Which is also highly populated and could very well be a place where We might get struck, although the political sympathy in that area is probably not so much for Bush and the war as it might be in other parts of the country.
Well, wouldn't, for example, you mentioned it would be very difficult to get one in.
How about sailing one in?
Well, again, the problem, the whole problem is can you get something in without detecting it?
Because these things are detectable.
They have signatures.
They don't just sit there idly.
So you couldn't bring an atomic bomb in, in the hole of a ship, encased in lead or something like that?
Well, then, you know, the more you have it encased, the less likely it's, I mean, the whole idea of an explosion is to have it explode.
Oh, I understand that.
But I mean, if you were to take it out of the lead and, you know, and then push the button, why?
Well, when you encase something in that much lead, of course, it weighs a lot, and that's going to attract some attention, too.
So, I mean, there are some safeguards.
Nothing is foolproof, of course.
I mean, nothing can guarantee absolutely that if somebody wanted to do that, that it would absolutely go detected.
Anything is possible.
So, we just have to rely on our Coast Guard and Our abilities to detect such things, and also our intelligence, which would allow us to know who's possibly planning to build such things.
I can't imagine there's an Al-Qaeda headquarters that hasn't been infiltrated by the CIA by now.
Well, thank goodness we have borders that nobody can get through.
Yeah, basically.
I would say that the chance of that happening is fairly remote.
It doesn't mean we shouldn't be wary, but I would not get too unduly concerned unless, of course, we start getting reports and the color of the protective code goes from, you know, what is it?
Red is the final color?
If we start getting, I mean, the whole system that the government has set up seems reasonable, the home security system, and I think we should more or less Go about doing what we're supposed to be doing.
There's little choice at the end of the day.
There's little choice for us to do with our lives day by day.
We can always, you know, voice our opinions about what should be done and what shouldn't be done and whether or not we can stem this tide of terrorism by some kind of economic solution, which I, in my heart, believe can be done.
And, you know, the Palestinian question and all these questions that we've left Swept under the carpet, so to speak, I believe there are peaceful solutions.
I've always felt that way and it may be very difficult to see and it may be things that are going to require a lot more time.
We just have to be patient and be willing to be patient and look for peaceful solutions and protect ourselves while we're doing so.
So then, you do not believe that our enemy has the mentality that says either we convert them or we kill them?
You know, it's hard.
I hear that and I've read it and so forth, but it's hard to travel around the world.
I've spent time in Muslim countries.
I've spent time with people in all walks of life and different things.
And it's very hard for me after seeing most people to believe that that anybody except a person of a very sick and ill disposition Would want to deliberately kill themselves.
I know people do it, and I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen.
Actually, every day in Iraq it seems to happen.
You know, we don't know what the problem is.
I really was hoping we wouldn't be talking too much about politics.
It's really just my opinion.
My opinion isn't worth any more than anybody else's.
And in Israel, it occurs, if not daily, on a very frequent basis.
Well, I lived in Israel for a while, and during the time in the 60s and early 70s, and it was on a wartime footage then, I lived in, during the time in Northern Ireland, I lived in Belfast for a while during the time that that Insanity was going on.
You've lived in some very contentious areas.
I deliberately chose to go to those areas to find out what was going on.
In that case, you're quite the optimist.
Well, I still believe in the basic good hearts and basic spiritual understanding of how the universe works.
I don't believe that this is going to go down in a great Nuclear holocaust.
I really think we are going to get through this on both sides, and this will just be a nightmare that we're going to pass through.
All right, well, this will give us a way to segue anyway.
If such a thing should occur, it would be just wonderful to have time travel, to be able to go back and perhaps change the course of what occurred.
And so I'm leaping very far ahead, but jumping nevertheless to time travel, which happens to be about my favorite topic in the entire world.
The first question for you is, what is time?
That's such a great question to ask.
St.
Augustine remarked when asked this question, You know, I know what it is.
I do.
I know what it is.
But if you ask me, I don't know what it is.
That's right.
And there have been a number of remarkable quotes.
Richard Feynman was asked, what is time?
And he says, it's nothing we can ever measure.
We don't really know what it is.
But it is.
I would even say he doesn't know what it is.
All right.
Well, you take your best shot.
I will.
I'm going to take my shot at it.
I just wanted to give you some idea as to where we're going with this.
That we're dealing with something which doesn't have a physical definition because it's not a physical variable.
That is not something we can actually pin down and measure.
So we are measuring something when we measure what we think is time.
But actually what we're doing is counting.
And what we're doing is we're counting with memory.
So the time and memory and mind are really much more intimately connected than we might have thought.
So as we begin to look at time, we're also looking at another thing that is very much part of what we call consciousness, and that's this thing we call ourself or our ego or our body-mind.
It has different definitions.
Then is time an artifact of consciousness?
It is an artifact of consciousness.
It is a very necessary artifact of consciousness, not something which we can just simply hope will go away.
But it is an artifact.
It's something that we create.
And the kind of time we call objective time, that time that we agree is the clock time and so forth, is really an agreement between all of us that one second is one second.
but what we really get down to actual measurements of time that we find that
there is no absolute measure of time at all in fact we can't even say for sure what is now
is anything we think is now actually turns out to be a window of time
if there is a there's a bottom edge which is the past there is a
a top edge which is the future and there's somewhere in the middle that bar
running across the window Which we call a noun, but it's not clearly defined
And some windows are very large, and people can see backwards and forwards through time, and some windows are very narrow, and people can't see at all, and wonder what the heck are people doing when they're climbing that.
So, to define time, I will tell you just this much, that time is the same thing as mind.
Mind and time are the same thing.
And that's why it's so hard to define.
And what this has taught me from my understanding of physics, particularly my understanding of the theories of relativity that Einstein was famous for bringing into our understanding, and also this thing we call quantum physics.
It's a very mysterious business that has really revolutionized the whole 20th century.
The 20th century was not the atomic century, it was the quantum century.
And this 21st century, the one we're in right now, is really going to be the first time we're going to see a raft of very remarkable, practical applications of that, which include time travel devices.
And the reason I... it sounds crazy, but... No, no, no.
No, no, no.
It's getting to a point now where we're really narrowly, narrowly nailing it down as to what we would have to do to build practical time travel devices.
Oh, Professor, you're really my kind of guy.
You really are.
So, you're saying within the 21st century, we will... We will be time traveling.
Using these kinds of devices.
We'll probably start out very small, just like in Keyword device.
I was prepared.
You were saying that, or agreeing, that time is an artifact of consciousness.
So I was sort of ready for you to be saying the only way we're ever going to travel in time is with some mental exercise.
That's what I thought you were going to say, but you used... That we can do now.
You used the word device.
Yeah, no, I'm just like you.
I'm excited about technology.
Uh, and I, although I'm very much into the spiritual idea of what time travel is all about, I'm certainly, I will be happy to talk about the Yoga of Time Travel, which is my latest book, which is, which is just wow.
We'll get to that, but you do believe a device will be created?
Oh yeah!
I have no doubt about it.
In fact, it's on the drawing boards already.
It is?
Yes, people are thinking about it already.
There's one famous physicist who you might call the father figure of quantum computers.
His name is David Deutsch.
In order for him to build quantum computers, he is already positing and writing the groundwork papers, the seminal papers right now, on how time travel is an integral part of how these
computers are going to operate.
Another physicist is doing work in the lab trying to create artificial gravitational fields
that are strong enough that they would squelch and distort time, slowing it down.
So there's a number of real efforts going on here.
Do you believe that a device will be created that would allow...
Within the next hundred years. I'm not sure when.
...that would allow travel in time both forward and in reverse?
That's the key, is that in reverse.
Because traveling forward through time isn't so much of a big trick anymore, but going backward in time, that's one where everybody, you know, gets their eye teeth confused.
Do you believe such a device could be created?
Absolutely.
You two are... Hold it right there.
Stay right where you are.
Fred Alan Wolfe is my guest.
I'm Mark Bell.
Don't you love her, manly?
you Don't you need her badly?
Don't you love her ways?
Tell me what you say.
Don't you love her badly?
Wanna be her daddy?
Don't you love her face?
Don't you love her as she's walking out the door?
Like she did one thousand times before Don't you love her ways?
Tell me what you say Don't you love her as she's walking out the door?
All your love All your love
All your love All your love
All your love is gone Just sing a lonely song
Of a deep blue dream Seven horses singing
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It sure is.
Professor Fred Allen Wolfe is my guest, and he has just finished saying, indeed, it's going to be possible to build a device To travel both forward and reverse in time, and he thinks it will happen in the 21st century.
In other words, we're coming up on it, folks.
This is gonna be fascinating.
so many questions last week
on the program and what was a pre-feed this night on the you know
it would have repeated.
I had a theoretical physicist as a guest who said that travel, time travel, into the past would be impossible.
Time travel into the future, said he, yes, Only in the sense that we are all traveling into the future right now, and if one were to be put in a state of suspended physical animation, for example, it would, in effect, be time travel or traveling close to the speed of light.
Otherwise, he was rather adamant there would not be a device to take one into the future or into the past, and He was well credentialed also, Professor Wolf.
So there's apparently a lot of disagreement in the world of theoretical physics about this, huh?
Well, there is.
It's surprising that there is, because the papers about it have been published in very reputable journals.
So I don't know where this guy's coming from.
Either he hasn't read the papers, or he's Read them and understand something I don't understand, which is certainly possible.
I'm not claiming to be the smartest guy in the world here.
I'm just claiming that I've understood the principles involved and I see no paradoxes with it.
And I'm also relying a lot on the work that I've read and understood, which is the work of David Deutsch, the Oxford professor of physics, who's designed quantum computers and sees a way that The conflicts that usually come from traveling backwards in time can be totally resolvable, and that there's nothing in the physics which forbids that kind of travel from taking place.
Okay, we'll certainly get to the problems associated with what they were thought to be, but first I'd like to understand the mechanism of how you might even imagine that a device would be created, how it would work, would it Would you warp something or another?
I mean, would you require great amounts of energy to do something?
Actually not.
This is what's very surprising.
People who know the classic ways of time travel realize that in order to time travel you have to make a kind of time warp.
You have to use a great gravitational field or move near the speed of light or something of that sort.
That's the classical ways.
I would say, sure, that's right, pre-quantum physics.
But once you start grasping what quantum physics is telling us, and how it operates, you begin to see another way of doing it.
And two Israeli physicists, a couple of Israeli physicists, one of them being the master physicist, Yakir Aharonov, has come up with a way in which we can use a device in which you just have many Many little shifts of time, not big ones, little mini ones, but if you can add up a whole bunch of mini ones and get them all in like ducks in a row, you can get a huge time shift, even though the device which is doing the shifting is putting little positive time shifts, slowing them down by a small positive amount.
This computer that you, quantum computer that you hook up to it, ...can put the device in a state in which you can shift backwards or forwards through time.
Now, what gets shifted is also very interesting.
It's a shift of the person inside the time machine, not the people outside.
The world outside is going on, but the guy inside is actually getting younger or getting older.
Oh, yes, really.
So, in other words, You would not go back through time and remain at your current physiological age?
In this device, no.
You would just get younger.
You would time travel.
But the rest of the world would just keep with going.
That's one way.
Then could one not travel prior to their own birth?
That's interesting.
You could travel to a time before your own birth, and then the question is, what happens in that case?
Well, you'd be nothing but a gleam in your dad's eye.
Yeah, those are very interesting questions.
A lot of that has not really completely been resolved.
I think I see what's going on.
Well, as you go back to an earlier time and get younger, you're actually going back to what is called a contrafactual past.
make any sense out of it for a listening audience for a short period of time
but uh... it because it seems so paradoxical so crazy slimy
as you go back to uh... earlier time and get younger
you're actually going back to what is called a contra factual past
that is you're going back to a past that could have been the past
that you actually experience that dot u to the place we're you have
then when you first entered the time machine does that mean then if you went
back to a let's say ten years yeah that was what was actually happening ten years
ago Wouldn't necessarily be happening when you arrived in the machine.
When you go back 10 years in the machine and come out of the machine 10 years younger.
You might be in a different reality?
You would be a different person younger, certainly.
You would definitely be younger.
You would see your skin would be less, you know, grungy.
So I see application for this already.
I mean, everything else is not.
You would not necessarily go back.
Let's say, for example, you have cancer.
Okay.
And you decide to go back in time to the pre-cancerous stage.
Yes.
You can go back to a time where you're healthier and actually prevent yourself from getting cancer because you would go to a place where you avoided whatever circumstances such as breathing in asbestos or something that sort of thing that was acting in a causal manner towards you getting cancer.
So you could do something like that.
You could use it as a kind of a healing technique.
Okay, so again, just so I understand, the physical movement would be possible.
By the way, would just the person or the thing move in time, or would the machine itself physically be transported?
No, no.
The way it's been thought about is you have to build, you have to get some really dense matter.
I mean, you know, I'm talking really super dense.
So, and you have to build a hollowed out sphere.
You have to sit inside that sphere.
Yes.
And in that sphere, time is, because of the huge gravitational field that's, actually it's a constant gravitational potential in the whole thing.
There's no field inside because it's just a gravitational potential, which means it's like you're high up on a mountaintop, but you're not falling.
You're at a high gravitational potential compared to the ground, but since you're not falling, there's no gravitational field pulling on you.
You're just staying at the same level, more or less.
Do you follow what I'm saying?
No.
Well, in other words, I guess I'm going to ask again.
You would be transported In the past ten years, you would be ten years younger.
You would sit in a thing and you would transport, you would get younger.
You would get younger and you would open the door and walk out.
Walk out younger.
Walk out younger and into a potentially completely different world.
The world you walk out in, the people outside the sphere will just be saying, what's going on outside the sphere?
What's Fred doing in there?
You could be in there for ten minutes and come out ten years younger.
And people will look at you and say, well, gee whiz, he's really changed.
And they would have been ten minutes older.
They would only be ten minutes older?
If you were in for ten minutes, and during that ten minutes you went back ten years.
Wait, wait, wait.
I do have to grasp this.
You go back ten years, so you're ten years younger, but when you walk out You're walking into the current timeline?
No, current timeline.
Nothing happens outside the machine.
Everything happens inside.
So you're telling me you don't actually go back and begin to experience what happened 10 years ago.
You just get 10 years younger.
That's different.
Now let's talk about what you're experiencing in the machine.
As you're traveling back, you're also getting younger and you're losing cognizance, possibly.
I'm not sure about this yet.
That's got to be worked out.
You may be losing cognizance of where you've been.
You may actually start not only getting younger, but forgetting where you've come from.
That's another possibility.
I mean, you're actually wiping out, you could be wiping out memory.
Ten years of memory?
Ten years, right.
You may go back to a pre, so you may, you know, get dumber.
But you would come out in the current timeline?
Yeah, you come out in the current timeline.
This is a time displacement machine.
It's a time travel of another kind.
See, when we talk about time travel... Well, no, that's fine.
Are you suggesting this technology will be developed before the actual ability to go back in time, or are you saying... This will be where we're going to start.
We're going to be starting there.
There's another way, by the way.
I'm just talking about one of the many possibilities that are on the drawing boards right now.
This is one of them.
There are others that are coming up, too, that have to do more with quantum computation.
It's not like we're going to be sending people back, but we're going to be sending some things actually back in time, which means they would disappear from our time in a certain sense.
Disappear, yes, as in... That's like in the time travel movies that you see.
We would still be in this time, but it would travel back in time and disappear from our view, so to speak.
And it would pop into... Look, you used ten years.
It would just pop into mid-air.
If it would do so, provided there was a portal by which it could emerge in the past.
In other words, a time machine would have to have been built Ten years ago, in order for this to happen.
So, if we built the machine now, ten years into the future from now, somebody could enter the machine and come out now.
You follow what I'm saying?
I'm not sure.
Let's say we build a machine.
People frequently say, well, if there's time travel, where are the time travelers, right?
Well, let's not worry about all that kind of, you know, we're this, bada, bada, dada, dada, doodadada.
Let's just talk about building a device.
What would we do?
How would it work?
If we build one now, and it's a box or something, and there's a door, and we build it, and we open the door, and maybe something's going on, maybe not, but let's say that that device is allowed to exist for ten years, a hundred years, a thousand years, whatever, when nobody destroys it.
During the time that it's existing, Then, if it's still existing 1,000 years from now in the future, somebody could enter that device in that year 1,000 years from now, and travel back through time to our present time, and come out.
So you're saying time travel will be possible from the moment it's invented, and then forward.
As long as the machine is around for a thousand years, you could travel within that thousand years.
You could actually physically travel within that thousand years.
Yes, then you could travel back in time from what would be our future time.
But the machine has to be built.
So the reason we may not be seeing time travelers right now is that nobody's built one yet.
Nobody's done it yet.
if you don't want to get something out of her but isn't that discouraging from
the point of view that that uh...
if the future is out there to be traveled into then
then at some future point it what you're talking about should have already been invented
and good.
This is where you have to begin to use your mind in a way that is foreign to our normal way of thinking.
Help me do that.
I'm going to help you.
If we imagine that time is a line and I'm going straight into the whole basic physics of it.
Imagine time is a line stretching from here to the future.
Imagine that you are outside of that line so that you can scan the whole line.
Okay?
Yes.
Now, sitting from your vantage point, there is a future point, and you can see there's the machine.
Like I'm in a helicopter looking down at a road.
Now, I can see 20 miles, 30 miles in each direction now, all these cars.
Exactly, but you're not looking at space.
You're looking into time itself.
Time, alright.
It's a timeline.
You're actually looking, you know, like the movie.
You're looking into time.
And your vantage point is beyond space and time.
This is one that drives people nuts because they keep wanting to go into time and be part of time and then they get confused.
So you've got to step out of time for a moment and use your imagination that you're outside of time.
This is what we do in relativity theory all the time.
This is how we calculate particle collisions.
We think like this.
This is what physicists think.
It's a lot of fun!
Alright, I'm imagining, I'm outside, and I'm looking... Now, you look, so now scan your eye along the line and say, ah, there's the future.
There's the machine.
It's there.
And now you look back to the past, and there it is in the past.
And then you go back one day just before that, and it's not there.
Because there's one point in the past where it actually got built.
Now, imagine that you can move along that line freely with your mind.
So let's say you go back to the past, just at the time the machine is built.
And you look at the machine and say, ah, there it is.
But you're in that time zone right now.
You're right there with it.
And if somebody were to come out of that machine from the future point, you would be quite amazed.
Now let's say we now move you back out of this, back into this free kind of renting space, and you're looking down at the whole timeline, and now you're in the future, and now you're sitting in the future, and there you are, and you open up the door, and you can even look through the portal, and look, actually look at the light that's coming from that past.
Right.
And so you can see that light coming up, and if you want to, you can get into it, Travel through it, this device, and come out the door again into the past.
Okay.
So then you have to see it as kind of like a building, which is a top floor and a bottom floor.
You have to think of it that way because there's no other way to make that make sense.
Each floor is a different time.
Got it.
Okay, then let's tackle The traditional old problems associated with it.
Absolutely.
That's where the fun comes in.
Well, alright.
The old... Paradoxes.
Yes.
Kill your grandma, kill your mom or your dad or whatever.
Right.
The old paradoxes.
Yes.
How do we deal with those?
Well, in classical thinking there is no way.
There are paradoxes and that means people just...
Uh, wash their hands up and say, it's impossible to travel back in past, because if you go back to the past and you kill your grandfather when he's prepubescent, that means he'll never, ever produce any children, which means your mother or your father couldn't get born, and that leaves you out in the cold.
You can't get born.
Right.
Grandfather paradox.
Disappear.
How do you do that?
How do you do that?
Well, this guy, David Deutsch, came up with a solution that was so ingenious.
And he published it, by the way, first in the Physical Review, which is a prestigious journal, and he also published it in Scientific American.
By the way, all these references are in my latest book, so people can read more about it.
I explain in simple language.
Don't worry, we're going to get great plugs in for your book.
No, no, I realize.
I just want to let the listener out there know that it needs more information.
Now, what happens is that Deutsch said, You know, in quantum physics, there are different possibilities.
What if we imagine that each possibility is like a different world?
In other words, when an object has different possibilities presented to it, it's like it has different worlds presented to it.
This is called the parallel universe's interpretation of quantum physics.
That's a perfectly valid one.
In fact, there's no way that you could prove it wrong.
It fits very nicely into quantum theory, but it's very weird to your thinking.
Except for one wonderful thing that it does.
It helps you solve time travel paradoxes.
Hold it right there.
We're here at the top of the hour.
This is great stuff.
So in other words, there is a way around these nasty paradoxes.
My guest is Professor Fred Allen Wolfe.
Very pro-time travel.
Very pro-time travel.
it's gonna be a blast I'm getting ready for a blues, some are happy, some are sad,
oh, but come and let the music play. What the people need is a way to make them smile, it ain't so hard to do it you
know how, you gotta give a message.
It's gonna be a blast.
Somewhere along the coast I hope that you guys thought you realized that external waves turned us right on you.
It's true, they never will.
It's gonna be a blast.
It's too late now, you're gone It's too late now, it's all still wrong
And I'm left beside me taking chances Yeah, that was so loose, sirens in my head
It's better than science, law, circus and death It's better than coal, my whole life spins into the present
And I'm lost, slipping into the twilight zone The exit to get out seems like a clone
My weakness can't move, I'm the moving star And I'm the ghost now that I've grown too old
To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
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To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
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From coast to coast, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM, with Art Bell.
That would be me, Professor Fred Allenwolf, is saying we will, in this century, build a time machine.
We'll be able to go forward and reverse in time.
Now, we've arrived at a unique place.
This multi-universe place.
And so before we get started again, I want you to go up to the website, www.coasttocoastam.com.
This is worth seeing.
You will see a picture of what looks like a television screen with a ray gun aimed at it, or something.
And then It says, Parallel Universes?
Physicist Richard Feynman explored the strangeness of quantum behavior through the famous two-slit experiment in which light is passed through two narrow slits and detected on a photographic plate, what I call the TV.
The expected result of passing light through two slits was pretty easy, right?
It would be the appearance of two lines.
But instead, one sees a series of lines diminishing in intensity on the plate.
Some physicists, our guest included, believe this experiment may point to the existence of parallel universes.
And that's the exact place we had arrived at the ending of this last hour.
So I want you Go on up to the GhostToCoastAM.com website and take a look at this demonstration.
It shows light being blasted through a little plate with two slits cut in it.
But what we see displayed, well that's not two slits, that's many more!
Does that really prove the existence of parallel universes?
That's what we're going to ask in a moment.
I believe that Professor Wolfe is telling us that, you know, paradoxes are not a problem because there are
multiple, perhaps even endless numbers of universes.
Is that correct?
Yes, that's hitting the nail precisely on its head.
Okay, well the nail, there's a really good nail up there on the website.
Either you sent this or you knew it was going to be there or you know it's there, I hope, one or the other, right?
I'm not sure, I haven't seen your, I haven't seen your latest posting.
Oh, you haven't seen this?
Alright, well, I read it to you anyway.
I know the double slit experiment, so I can certainly explain it to anybody.
Oh, wonderful.
Alright, well, yes, common sense says it would project two slits.
Send a light through, two slits, you get two slits on the screen.
But you don't, obviously.
So, why not?
Well, the story is maybe even more bizarre than we might even imagine it.
When we start looking at what actually hits that screen, when we turn the light intensity way, way, way down so that we're really getting very weak light through it, we're getting what are called photons, particles of light, little bits of light that are traveling.
And what's weird is that, you know, Turn the crank down, and you get one photon leaves, and it goes through these double slits, and then it hits the screen, your television screen, and makes a small spot.
And then another one comes and makes a spot, and then another one, and another one.
And finally, when you get a billion upon billions of these spots all going through one at a time, then you see this Phoenician blind effect.
And now you start to think, huh?
Huh?
How could that be?
Why are there spaces?
Why are there so many blinds?
Why are there spaces where the thing doesn't go?
Now you close one of the slits.
You close it down.
And I do the same experiment all over again and suddenly the venetian blinds completely disappear.
How did you get those venetian blinds on the screen?
Where did that pattern come from?
The only way that makes any sense is to say somehow the fact that there were two possibilities for each particle of light to travel from where it started To where it finally ended, the two slits in the screen, somehow had an effect upon the way that particle traveled.
So you're telling me you don't get that effect if you take one of those slits away?
Absolutely.
Only if it has a choice.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And if you put more splits in, you get much more complicated patterns.
But two is enough.
I'm with you.
Let's stay with two.
It's hard enough.
So are you saying, then, that this photon, or this electron... It could be any one.
It has a choice, and the choice it makes is to do both, or to do even more than both?
How do I get from A to B?
Do I go through Slit 1?
Do I go through Slit 2?
Do I go through both Slit 1 and Slit 2?
How do I get from A to B?
And if you try to find out how it gets from A to B, and you find that it goes through Slit 1 or Slit 2, the pattern disappears.
But the minute you don't know whether it goes to slit one or slit two,
you start losing your ability to know that, the pattern starts to appear.
But it's it's always repeatable, right?
Always repeatable.
Science loves that.
So the decisions then are always the same, or there really isn't a decision.
It's going to bump right into this whole quantum thing, right?
This is where this whole thing about probabilities, and the parallel universes, and parallel worlds, and interference between one world and another, and all that kind of stuff.
uh... drives most people a little bit mad but is that the light to any quantum physicist because he
realizes is really the key
to quantum physics. What Richard Feinbner would say is the only mystery there is.
So then you're telling me what I'm looking at here right now in this simple
experiment is in fact
proof of other universes.
Yes, and that's exactly what David Deutsch would say.
He would say this is not only a proof of other universes, but he would prove that in whatever universe we happen to be in when we make the observation, the effect of the other one is present.
even though we don't need a universe it's affecting what we do see a
missionaries uh...
all right uh... so and so if we got
to the full time machine to go back into the past yeah
uh... we could could we could we choose for example uh...
into like little photon or time uh... couldn't could we choose
where we went.
It's a good thing.
In a way, you can.
In fact, if you choose to do the kind of paradox that we started talking about at the beginning of the hour, We were talking about this grandfather paradox.
Yes.
If you do that, and you go back in time, and you tell your grandparents, or you get your grandparents not to marry you, whatever you do to them, and they don't, and they really don't get married, then what you've just done is to create a parallel universe in which you're in.
And now you've left one universe, literally disappeared from it, and have appeared in
the universe where you were born.
And you've appeared in the universe where you're not going to be born, and there's no
second you there to deal with.
And what would have happened to all your knowledge, the knowledge you had acquired up until that
point?
In this scenario, you don't lose anything.
You're not getting younger.
You go back in time, and you go counter to the normal time stream that everybody else
All your memories would be intact and you'd be in this new universe where everything was happening perhaps in a very different way.
Well, it might look similar except for one thing.
There is no second you there to talk about.
There's this great time travel movies where guys go back in time and they meet themselves, and you know, the thing about what happens if you meet yourself in a parallel universe.
This absolutely answers that as well, obviously.
Of course you wouldn't be there, you're in a totally different universe.
Yeah, but there are situations.
If you like paradoxes, I've got a whole lot for you.
Well, this is a good one, because you really would be there with memories of what you had come from.
Exactly.
So if you were in a world where some damn terrorist blew up a bomb, potentially you could escape from that and go to a universe where everything was pretty much the same, except that didn't happen.
That's right.
You may be able to even talk the guy out of even building the thing in the first place.
If you, Professor, had that ability, and I'm sure you've given it thought, how could you not have?
What would you do?
For example, to when would you travel?
Well, I thought about that a couple times, and I'm kind of a strange duck when it comes to when I would travel.
There are certain time periods that I'm very interested in.
For example?
Well, I'm interested in, for some bizarre reason, to the Just before the Nazis came into power in Germany, I'm very interested in the culture that created the whole idea of the Social Democrats and Nazis and the National Socialist Party.
And I'm interested in that time period because it turns out that this was a time period of the greatest schism in physics that ever could possibly come into being.
Which was?
Quantum physics and classical physics.
Determinism and indeterminism.
It was a big split, because quantum physics said the world's indeterminate, and classical physics says the world is absolutely determined.
And what we had happening then is Nazi Germany coming into being with almost a rampant desire to make everything absolutely determined.
That's true.
That's what they wanted to do!
They wanted to control everything!
The future, the present, the past, everything!
They wanted to control the whole shit and ratch!
And at the same time, during that strong desire to control everything, suddenly there's this birth of this whole interminable world, which is shocking to physicists, but yet is responsible for nearly every great technological tool that we presently are using in today's world.
Quantum physics makes the computer possible.
It makes television the way we see television now possible, not the old television sets.
It makes, it makes, I don't even, there isn't anything I can think of where we're not using quantum physics as part of the, your automobile, you can't even drive your automobile if it wasn't for quantum physics, because the technology used for all the kinds of things that your automobile does Such as, you know, spark plugs and all that kind of stuff, and timing and all that.
How many times have you had your timing chain changed in your current cars?
Remember we used timing chains?
They don't use them anymore because they use computers to do all that kind of stuff.
All that's response, all that comes about through quantum physics.
So, there's, you know, we can just go on and on and on.
I mean, photoelectric effect cameras, TV, deep space communication, modern photography, modern digital photography.
How about DVDs and CDs?
Not possible without quantum physics!
How about lasers and laser surgery?
How about all of that?
All of these remarkable, wonderful inventions that we just take for granted?
All really quantum?
All quantum physics.
All quantum physics.
Nothing would work without quantum physics.
Alright.
It's in the core of it.
And here I thought that we were sort of on the cusp at the beginning Only of not only understanding but manipulating things at a quantum level.
Isn't that true?
We are at the cusp of getting down to individual atomic events and what we're finding as we manipulate down at that level is some more surprises that we didn't expect.
The kinds of things we did at the quantum level when we came to designing chips and microchips and quantum, I mean classical computers and all that kind of
stuff.
We didn't have to control individuals.
We had to control large amounts of very refined kind of, you know, what we call dope silicon
and stuff like that.
We had to get down there and the technology was very refined.
Clean rooms, everything had to be done in spotless things, in spotless ways.
And that technology didn't require individual atomic control.
But now, now, in order to build quantum computers, we're beginning to look at control of individual
little groups of atoms, two or three or four of them at a time.
Yes.
So we're going into a whole other technology, and this whole other technology means that our thinking has to even go deeper and more into the quantum nature of reality.
And that is introducing some surprising new insights into the relationship of the mind To these devices that we're building.
And this is where I'm very excited because I think we're beginning to now really get on the brink of, remember hell?
Yes.
Remember 2001?
Yes.
We're getting on the brink of making a hell.
Artificial intelligence now, with the understanding of quantum computers and how they work, is really going to be where there's going to be this huge break, where there's going to be actually a guy in that machine that's going to talk to you.
How close do you think we are to what we classically understand?
In fact, what's the definition of artificial intelligence?
I would use what has been popularly called the test that was designed by a guy that I first came up with artificial intelligence definitions.
I can't think of his name right now.
It doesn't matter.
What was the test?
The test was if you could ask a device certain questions and if the answers that the device gave you were such that you could not tell from those answers whether you were speaking to a machine Or to a human being, then the thing is artificially intelligent.
Uh-huh.
Well, if that's true, if that is the measure, then... But now, anybody with any degree of intelligence could actually Come across a device like that.
Actually, on the internet, Professor, I've really seen software that, frankly, if you didn't know, if you were set up for it correctly, you would not know that you're talking to a computer, that a computer is giving you answers or responding to you.
No, even the search engines have a kind of artificial intelligence.
I'm not denying any of that.
That's all classical computation.
Well then define more finely.
Because you could ask more refined questions and it wouldn't be able to answer.
At a certain point it would say, you know, that does not compute.
Okay, so then you're saying once we get a machine which cannot be stumped.
That's right, yeah.
In the same way that I ask you questions and you respond to me in surprising ways, I can't predict what you're going to say.
And the computer would have to respond in similar ways, in such a way that there would be a novelty or... Novelty.
Yeah, there'd be something really novel about it.
Now, we're getting, you know, people, some people, this is debatable, by the way, this whole point is very debatable.
And the AI people are really up in arms with us quantum computer guides, because we're talking about, you need quantum physics to really make something AI.
And these guys are saying, no you don't, you need like Stephen Wolfram's invention of the pattern recognition machines and things which follow simple rules to make very complex patterns.
I say, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's all true, but who's recognizing the patterns?
The machine isn't!
So, really refined, how far away are we from what you would consider real artificial intelligence?
Are we there now?
No, we're not there now.
How far away are we?
I would say that we're within five years of when the first practical quantum computer gets built.
We will have artificial intelligence five years after that.
But first we have to get a quantum computer up and running.
And these are very, very Non-robust type of guys.
They're very unstable.
The environment can quickly shake them up in such a way that their outputs are practically useless.
We have to find some way to stabilize quantum computers to make them more robust to stand up to the Toils and troubles of thermal environments, things of that sort.
And you think we could be within five years of that?
From the time we get to one of those working, I think the artificial intelligence device is within five years of that, yes.
But first this.
First the quantum computer, then the true AI.
Well then let me rephrase.
How far from a viable quantum computer do you imagine we might be?
My guess is ten to twenty years from now.
10 to 20 years.
And that may be a lot faster, because I think we've gotten up to 5 quantum units, what are called qubits.
We've gotten up to 5 by now.
Maybe we've gotten even a little further.
Some people are claiming we may be getting up to 10 pretty soon, and some even more.
By the way, alongside of this, there's a whole other set of stuff that comes in.
It's right on Star Trek.
All right, good.
Hold it right there, right out of Star Trek.
Yes, I can imagine so, actually, when you consider it.
The first quantum computer, 15, 20 years.
Then AI, five years later.
than AI five years later?
Wow.
You get a shiver in the dark.
It's raining in the pub.
Meantime.
Bye.
South of the river you stop and you hold everything.
A man is throwing dixie, double ball time.
You feel alright when you hear the music play Now you step inside but you don't see too many faces
Coming in out of the rain you hear the jazz go down Competition in all the places
But the horns keep blowing that sound Way on down south
So...
Way on down South London Town.
To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
From west of the Rockies, call Art at 800-618-8255.
line is area code 775-727-1222. To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free
at 800-825-5033. From west of the Rockies, call Art at 800-618-8255.
International callers Indeed.
Dr. Fred Alan Wolf is my guest with regard to current events and the world situation.
He's very optimistic.
and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
From coast to coast and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Indeed. Dr. Fred Allen Wolfe is my guest with regard to current events and the world situation.
He's very optimistic. He's also very optimistic about time travel.
Yes, he says, a device for time travel is going to be invented,
to be embedded, allowing both reverse and forward time travel.
That's led us to multi-universes and to the quantum world, of course, and actually to artificial intelligence.
That's something we just hit on, and before we move forward from there into some of the Star Trek-y stuff, there are quite a number of questions I have about the possibility of Almost certainty of artificial intelligence?
several questions about that once again professor fred allen wolf and professor i want
to stick with a life for a second
uh... since it could be 15, 20, 25 years, perhaps at the most, ahead of us.
I really wonder about the wisdom involved of the creation of something that might be smarter than we are.
We call it a machine, call it an entity, it doesn't matter.
If you create something that is smarter than we are, is there a big danger?
Well, that is a wonderful question.
What about the danger of creating something smarter?
Well, you know, we face that danger every time we have a kid, don't we?
Kids sometimes are smarter than we are.
I mean, I'm probably smarter than my parents were, mainly because I had maybe a better education than they have, or maybe because I just got the best of both of them.
Sure, we're going to be confronting machines that are smarter than us, because if they work properly, they're probably going to do things that we can't even do.
Or might not.
Ray Kurzweil is even worried about that.
Or might not like.
What?
Or might not like.
Yeah, or might not like, right.
So, you know, there's going to be the problem of, you know, the typical types of problems we have.
One has to do with control, and all that sort of stuff, and manipulation, and you know, Isaac Asimov, iRobot scenario.
The first law being no harm to humans, right?
No harm to humans, exactly.
So all this ethical stuff, by the way, is happening now.
It's not just artificial intelligence.
We're running into the same problems with the bioethics of artificial children.
Okay, well here's the thing.
In my mind, I can imagine an artificial form of consciousness or machine Which gets control of a great deal of our world.
In the modern, connected, ever more connected world, this living computer gets control of everything, more or less.
Stick with me for a second here.
It's firmly implanted, deeply implanted, with the concept you mentioned from science fiction, but it sounds logical.
There shall be no harm to man.
It's number one!
Most important directive, no harm to man.
Okay, let's say a machine like that existed right now.
Oh, gee.
It might look at the bigger picture, perhaps a bigger picture than we intended, since it's a smarter device than we are, and it might take a gander at its sensors, telling it the North Pole is melting and the Antarctic is breaking off, and also More or less disintegrating.
These are really major things going on in the world.
North Pole, melting, South Pole, dilapidating.
And this machine might look at that and take its number one directive and do something, well, that just wouldn't please us at all.
For our own good and safety!
What about that?
Anything's possible, but let me, certainly in this scenario, nightmare scenarios are definitely in the mainstream, and boy, Hollywood writers out there, pay attention to what I'm saying!
But listen to this.
As we move into this next period of technology, as we begin to understand what it means to have artificial intelligence, we're going to be beginning to look at what I might call the mechanics of self.
Or self-organizational abilities.
And we're going to be looking at what's involved in that.
Now, if what I am discovering from the work that I've done over the last 40 years in quantum physics and time with shamans in various parts of the world and some of the spiritual teachings that I've been reading about, if that makes any sense to me, and I think it does, if it makes any sense to anybody else, and I think it will, You're going to find that there's a spiritual basis that also, and this may sound even farther out to people that are just technocrats, there's a spiritual basis to this whole thing.
It's not just going to be them versus us.
It's going to be a new vision of what we are.
I think, Professor, that I agree with you.
So my question would be, when do you think that science Physics, as it were, you know, hardcore physics, is going to meet up with metaphysics.
At some point, if what you're saying is true, the two are going to discover each other.
It's happening now, Art.
As far as I can tell, it's happening now.
The reason I'm saying this is the fact that the current trend in physics today, in papers today, is leading into a more abstract Less material-based worldview than was even conceivable 20 years ago.
There are Nobel laureates of physics today who made remarkable discoveries in intellectual weak theory, people like Sheldon Glashow that have confessed That these new ways of thinking that are being developed, say we call it string theory or membrane theory, there are many different languages for it.
These guys are confessing, we don't understand what you new physicians are doing.
You're coming up with ideas that have no experimental verificational ability at all.
And yet, they seem to be providing a basis for what we call reality.
As we peer into that more deeply, And we begin to try to unite all the fields.
We're going to find that, this is my prediction, this is what I see happening, we're going to find that one part of the equation that's missing, which is called consciousness.
And this is where, you know, I see is inevitable.
I'm not the only one thinking this way.
There are a number of physicists that are thinking like this.
Roger Penrose, who's written a number of books about this, thinks this way.
Brian Josephson, Nobel Laureate, thinks this way.
Even Stephen Hawking is beginning to Think a little bit more about information and its respectful place in the physics community.
Professor, there's work going on at Princeton, right?
Consciousness work.
There is.
There has been.
I'm not sure what's going on right now.
I haven't kept up.
Whatever.
Anyway, they had or have computers scattered around the globe they call eggs that report back to mom a computer at Princeton and they've discovered this correlation between world events like 9-11 and These sudden spikes in non-random activity of these so-called eggs, computers planted in different physical locations, and that would seem to me a place where physics and science and metaphysics are colliding and discovering each other, perhaps.
Well, there's certainly some indication that if you get something complex enough, it begins to exhibit some of the elements of what we would call conscious behavior.
So, that fits in very well with many of the current biodiversity type guys, the evolutionary biologists, that if things are complex enough, then they will begin to show intelligence.
I'm saying there's something more that's still needed here, that that's not enough.
There's something else that's needed, and that is the ability to form pictures that we call selves.
Like, I see myself as Fred Alan Wolfe talking to Art Bell.
Why isn't it just one man, one voice, one person, one entity, including all the listeners on millions above?
Why aren't we just one mind?
Well, if we are just one mind, how do we get these different separate egos or selves that arise?
To me, that is an interesting question that's not immediately obvious.
It was taken to be immediately obvious until we began looking at quantum physics and began realizing that the assumption of there being separate minds is really fraught with a number of paradoxes that cannot be explained until you begin to look at the idea of one mind which projects itself as separate minds rather than Separate minds, which have no relationship with each other at all.
Wait a minute.
One mind that projects itself as many millions, even billions of separate minds?
Yes.
But they're all like reflections of one mind.
Is that like the concept of God?
It is getting there.
We're getting close.
I remember, Professor, maybe you'll consider this elegant or maybe just trash.
I don't know.
But somebody came on the program a few years ago and just Almost put me to my knees by saying that, you know, what God did was blow himself up.
We were talking about the Big Bang.
Yes.
And God, in effect, blew himself up.
Or perhaps you could, after listening to your words a few moments ago, it sort of sounds Similar, in a way, God, instead of one mind, created all of these supposedly separate minds, but it's all one God mind.
Yes.
Now, that's close.
Now, I'm going to be as presumptuous as I can possibly be and speak for God for a moment and say, what did I, as God, do?
First of all, I exist in a timeless, spaceless, Matterless realm of non-being, non-existence, non-material, neither sun nor moon, neither star nor planet.
I exist in this realm with basically nothing to do.
But I'm there, and I'm conscious, and I'm going to be this way for all eternity, as far as I can tell.
There is no time for me to even measure eternity.
It's constant.
Everything is constant now for me.
And I create something.
And in that creation, it's a huge explosion.
It's the most chaotic, violent event, as one of your listeners was talking about before.
You can even imagine the Big Bang.
So you did this out of what we would call loneliness.
Loneliness, boredom, whatever you want to call it.
I don't know.
Desire.
The first inkling to make something like this happen.
We can speculate about that all we want, but what's important to me is the mechanisms that start to result.
As a result of this desire or this loneliness that arises, the Big Bang is a violent, terribly violent thing.
And if it left to its own devices and its own quantum mechanics and everything else, it would just continue to expand into all these possibilities with nothing ever really reaching any fruition at all.
No actual matter would even appear.
Nothing.
It would all be probability clouds.
But Suddenly, or at times, or constantly, I'm going to enter into this game and I'm going to nudge.
I'm going to nudge this.
I'm going to, you know, tinker with it as it goes on, just like a good quantum physicist would do in a laboratory.
I'm going to tinker with this thing.
That sounds like Q from Star Trek, tinkering.
It is Q. It's Q from the start.
It's Q from the word go.
I'm going to tinker with this thing.
And in tinkering with this thing, suddenly things are going to start structurized.
That is, electrons are going to appear.
Oh, now we're getting protons.
We're getting quarks coalescing.
We're getting strings coalescing into quarks.
We're getting particles.
And now electrons and protons are beginning to form hydrogen atoms.
And the electron, in order to form a hydrogen atom with a proton, Has to go into a quantum cloud of possibility.
And now we're getting to form helium atoms.
And now helium and hydrogen are beginning to, wow, squeeze together under their own self-gravitating space-time distorting mechanisms, which are already inherent in the Big Bang itself.
And they're producing stellar materials, which we call stars or suns.
And some of them are big and some of them are small.
Some of them live a short time, some of them live a long time.
Sounds a lot more complicated than Let There Be Light.
Oh boy!
Yes, not only is it complicated, but there's no way that you can explain any of that based upon any common sense understanding of the laws of the evolution of the universe.
It's mechanical.
Sure enough, everybody you ask about that one second before the Big Bang, Well, they just sit there, mostly, right?
Right.
Well, there's nothing you can say.
And I'm going to say nothing.
And, you know, people argue about it.
That's good.
You get people thinking about what's going on before the Big Bang.
We're now beginning to look at things from a timeless, spaceless, unoriginated, unformed, unborn form, which is the place that I believe consciousness really resides.
We're still there.
Anyway, Professor, you're saying there had to be an original and, add lonely, consciousness.
Absolutely.
Or there could be many of them.
That's where we get into trouble.
You see, when we start looking at many of them, we come into certain kinds of conflicts which result as, which come about Because of the disagreements which result from these things.
Of course, there are disagreements.
Don't get me wrong.
But there's no basis for any kind of agreement at all.
In fact, there is conflicts about what is really an observation or a non-observation when you have multiple realities.
This was pointed out, by the way.
And a series of papers by Schrodinger, the guy who originally founded quantum theory and the basic mathematics for it, and one of his students, Ludwig Bas, and he showed in a very interesting logical argument that there couldn't be more than one mind.
There had to be just one mind, because if there was more than one mind, certain kinds of paradoxes would result that are unresolvable by logic.
They're just logically impossible.
I'm not going to take time to go through it.
Does that make God possible and Lucifer not?
No, it makes both God and Lucifer both possible.
But Lucifer could only have been a creation of the original consciousness.
Once you start forming this material world, and once consciousness gets to be part of it, There's tendencies which develop, which are called reflective, or self-organizational.
And once that begins to happen, then the self-organizational pattern begins to recognize itself as a thing separate from God.
And that's where the great fall, that's the great Christian myth, that's where all that stuff comes from.
But again, it's all from a single consciousness.
And that's where the devil comes about.
That's where all this evil and good comes in.
And it starts to happen during this phase of what the Christians call the Great Fall.
It comes about in this kind of phase.
And it makes perfect sense to me, because the only way that you can really make consciousness enter into it, the only way God can play with this stuff, is you've got to get involved in it.
He, she, whatever you want to call God, she can't remain outside of what she's created.
She has to get involved in it, and getting involved in it means tinkering with it, and in getting involved in it means becoming it as well.
Well, let's talk about an instant of particular involvement.
Earlier in the program, I asked you where you would like to go, or when you would like to go, and you mentioned the formation of the Nazi movement.
For me, I would want to go and see the birth, life, and crucifixion of Jesus.
That would have been a moment of quite a bit of mixing it up, huh?
Well, I didn't say I wouldn't want to go there, I'm just saying where would I want to go first?
See, the point is, recent history interests me more from the point of view that as we go further back in time, We don't really... The past is so fuzzy.
Are you talking about the future being undetermined?
Believe me, the past is far more undetermined than the future is.
And we know more about what's going to happen in the future than we're ever going to know what happened back then.
But if you could confirm the life and death and resurrection of Jesus, then you'd be answering The big question about the single consciousness... I think I'd want to spend some time with the Buddha, by the way.
I would spend time in India first.
All right.
Professor Wolf, hold on.
When we come back, we're going to open up the phone lines.
Is this interesting, or what?
I'm Art Bell, in the middle of the darkness, which is where we do this kind of work.
To access the audio archives of Coast to Coast AM, log on to coasttocoastam.com.
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Now, listen to me very carefully.
Dr. Fred Alan Wolfe is obviously a fascinating man.
He's written two books, and so if you've been fascinated tonight, and I know you have, then you might want to take a read.
For example, his book called Taking the Quantum Leap, or perhaps The Yoga of Time Travel.
Here's a man who tells us the machines, the vehicles, the devices, are indeed going to be built, giving us time travel, but there are other ways, probably, No doubt.
Described in the yoga of time travel.
I'm Art Bell, and we're about to go to the phones.
just a couple of small matters and then in fact directly the phones with professor walsh
you may not uh...
completely know who you're listening to tonight so this might help you out a little bit.
Ever heard of a movie called What the Bleep Do We Know?
Yes, huh?
You have.
Early this year, a unique independent film called What the Bleep Do We Know began popping up in limited theaters cross-country, and a funny thing happened.
It sold out.
I mean, it stayed there, and stayed there, and stayed there, because it just kept selling out, because people were telling each other about it, just going berserk.
It was all about this award-winning actress, you know, Marlee Matlin, Children of a Lesser God, West Wing, so on, finds herself in a fantastic Alice in Wonderland experience when her uninspired life explodes, unravels, revealing the uncertain world of Quantum Field, Hidden behind what we consider to be our normal waking reality.
Now, this is pretty wild stuff, and one of the scientists interviewed in this movie is our guest tonight.
Right, Doctor?
That is correct.
So, how did you get involved with this film?
Well, the producers and the director were, believe it or not, fans of mine.
I've written 11 books.
I've been doing this for a while.
And they had heard me lecture several times in the Pacific Northwest.
In fact, I was given a special invitation to speak before the mystery school that was run by this woman who comes out as a guided spirit called Ramtha, a man, a warrior from the past.
Whether that's real or not is It's not debatable, but it's besides the point, because the wisdom is there.
The producers were all students of Rempe, and they heard me.
My books at that time, Space Time and Beyond, and Taking the Quantum Leap, as my new books came out, were all being used by her students, since they contacted me, having been in her class several years later, after Bill Arntz, the producer, had made some money in the computer business and decided to Make this movie.
And so I was one of the several that they first contacted.
In fact, several of the people that are in the movie were there because I recommended to them that they should get these other people.
Many times you have a concept of, you know, what a movie is going to be.
Because perhaps, well, I wrote a book that became the inspiration for a movie, along with Whitley Strieber.
So I've been there, done that.
And my question is, how did your Concept of what it might be and the reality of it when you saw it Did they collide or not at all in fact?
the most it was an amazing synchronicity of a confluence of Thought it's almost like a proof of the one mind I was really flabbergasted by the way the filmmakers put this film together because what they It was all the different scientists and the mystics and the people that appear in the film that are commenting on what's happening in the movie to Amanda, played by Marlee Matlin, her life story and the story of the universe.
It's as if there was one voice speaking through many different bodies.
It was kind of fun.
I'm kind of a fun kind of guy.
I like to joke and have fun, and so that came through in the movie.
Uh, the other guys maybe were a little more serious, but even that was important because it set a whole kind of tenure for the movie.
And people that see the movie come away having had a spiritual, deep feeling experience.
It certainly gets you thinking.
But it really gets you in the heart.
Well, there's a giant buzz about it.
I mean, just gigantic.
So congratulations on being part of it, or even the genesis, perhaps, of it.
What part did you like best?
Funny thing is, I like me best!
I didn't realize it was so funny!
I'm only half kidding.
I really did like the way it came out, but there was a certain part of the movie that I found was really fascinating.
That's where the shaman on the island pokes Marley in the head with his finger to awaken her for her to see what's going on in her life.
Having been with shamans in Peru, all I can really say is that the film carefully, but very visually, showed what it's like to go through an awakening process. I still
get chills when I see that part.
I also liked when Amanda Marley Matlin gets in the basketball court with young Reggie,
that's the Robert Bailey Jr. He's a wonderful little actor, quite fun to watch. And Reggie,
playing with basketballs, takes Amanda into the quantum physics world using parallel universes
idea. It shows her how consciousness makes a choice. I thought this bit of animation was really
quite superb. Wow. Well, again, there's a giant buzz about it.
I'm hearing from everybody about this, so it must really be something, and I've got to see it.
I have yet to do it, and I would love to, so I will find a way.
Now, this is a wild question for you, but if there is a single mind projecting all of these other billions of minds around this world, and perhaps others, If the world should do the very worst and blow itself up, end its existence, if we were to end our existence in the reality of multiple, even endless universes, would it matter?
From the point of view of what we might call Krishna or God Consciousness, It'll matter, because, you know, you don't like to see something that you put a lot of heart and mind and soul into it go down the tubes.
Right.
But it's just one of many worlds, many possibilities, and there are others.
But that would be a possibility, or do you think that the single mind would intervene as it is, I think you've suggested, capable of doing?
Well, it is capable of doing, of nudging.
It's what I call the Great Nudge.
The Great Cosmic Nudge.
It's more of a nudge than it is, I'm going to take my hammer and I'm going to hit you in the head if you don't do the right thing.
And it's a different kind of action.
And it necessarily seems to have to be that way.
We can get nudged by the Great Consciousness of God or the Great Spirit, but we can't really Ask this Greatsberg to hit us over the head, hit the bad guys over there, because who's bad and who's good constantly changes.
Even though right now we're in the midst of this, you know, fear and terrorists and all that kind of stuff, you know, all that picture could change.
And I remind people that, you know, during the height of World War II, there were a lot of atrocities going on, and we were accusing people of being the bad guys there and now you
know the so-called bad guys are our dearest allies. I mean so you know things change and so
we have to be very careful about how we throw around good and evil and absolute evil and
absolute good because all things really don't exist. And so I would say give this world a chance.
We're still going through this whole recognition of this new technology, this new spiritual
movement and I'm optimistic in spite of the fact that we're having these troubles right now.
I know you are.
All right.
First time caller line.
Turn off your radio.
That's number one.
You're on the air with Dr. Fred Allen Wolfe.
I'm Mark Bell.
How are you doing?
Good.
Good.
How about you?
Just fine, sir.
What's up?
I wanted to comment on the one mind versus the multiple minds, I suppose, here on Earth.
One idea that I've contemplated is this one mind that you speak of.
There's many spiritual traditions, there's many names for it.
To simplify it, in my mind, would be to call it creation.
Okay.
And perhaps we are created because creation cannot know itself.
Oh, that's interesting.
There is a very interesting point, that perhaps creation cannot know itself.
So we are in search of the unknowable, ultimately, Professor?
Well, that is a thought.
As you said, what are the driving factors, the desire that the one mind would have?
One of them, certainly, is what the listener is pointing to, is the idea of self-recognition.
I need some matter to see myself.
And that all of these different minds and consciousnesses that we see around the planet, and maybe around the whole universe, are reflections of that one mind, so God can see himself, or see herself, or see itself.
Okay.
Long hard line, you're on the air with Professor Wolf.
Hello!
Hi, I just have a question about the time machine.
If we assume that the time machine, once invented, lasts a thousand years, like you said, and time travel could only exist within that thousand year period, in the exact moment we realize that the time machine is working, when someone from the future, should they pop out of the time machine with like a bunch of upgrades for our machine?
Therefore, the first test that the time machine works would simply be just opening the door to see if someone's sitting there, right?
Yeah, exactly.
I've got it.
Professor?
Yeah, yeah.
What about that?
That's it.
Open the door.
There's somebody there.
Because the whole idea of the time machine is it stretches the notion of time being just the immediate now.
I mean, that'd be like Bill Gates stepping out of the capsule with, oh, I don't know, a service pack 2 before the platform even comes out.
Kind of.
Again, when we look at those paradoxes, I want to tell you that I don't care.
You can think of as many as you want to.
I guarantee that with parallel universes as a way to resolve even the most, like the knowledge paradox we're hinting at right now, all these paradoxes are totally resolvable.
So then you really could have Bill Gates stepping out saying, okay, here's a service pack, too.
Well, you're going to need it.
Trust me.
Hold on to it.
Well, it could set up a universe where that occurred.
In this universe, we won't have service back to operating.
The universe he came from, he did.
I could say so many things.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Fred Allen Wolfe.
Hello.
Yes, sir.
Hello, Art.
This is Keith in Hamilton, Ontario.
Yes, Keith.
I've got a question and a comment.
It touches a little bit of what the past coach said, but I don't think time travel is possible because If it was, it's not being done right now.
What I mean is, let's say if it was created 15 to 20 years from now, that person should travel back to this period in time right now and say, hey, look, I just come back from, again, this 15, 20 year loop and say, here it is.
This is the exact technology.
This is what I used.
Welcome to it.
There's one problem.
We don't have a time machine here right now.
The whole point is you can't travel back in time to a point where the time machine doesn't exist.
The future can't come back to now if we don't have a time machine now.
I was going to say also, as my comment, it would be a perfect opportunity for the perfect crime or robbery.
What I'm trying to point out to you, I hear you very well, is that all these really bizarre paradoxes that your mind is going to come up with, which tells you time travel is impossible, read How it's possible, before you dismiss your impossibility, read what physicists are saying about it, and you can read me, you can read David George, you can read the Scientific American, you can read any different number of sources, before you dismiss all of the problems that I'm sure your creative mind is going to come up with, because it is possible.
All right.
But, you know, what he just said is sort of interesting.
If the actual physical travel to the past uh... or even perhaps the future
could be done then he just really set a mouthful i mean look what he'd do with
it what we do
of some sort of crime on the night you know i i think it popped into his little
mind right away and he just poured it out to us uh... well will go and get
some inside stock information or
uh... will go back and uh... and and take a whole bunch of cash or diamonds
And indeed, he will enter a parallel world different from the world he left.
The price you pay for committing a crime that didn't exist in the past before is that you get split off from the universe you came from.
Believe it, you're gone.
And maybe the cosmic justice would be, if Rod Serling lives on, that the universe in which he arrives will hold those diamonds littering the whole earth!
That's another possibility.
Look, all you writers of science fiction out there, here's a beauty for you.
You decide to commit a perfect crime.
You go back in time to do it.
And what happens is you get caught in that universe.
You can't go back to the original where you came from.
And in that universe, there are criminals galore.
Doing the same dumb things he just did.
And it's so bad that people are shooting to kill each other and you're miserable, even though you've still got all the money in the world, you're the most miserable S.O.B.
you can imagine.
Poetic justice!
Well, do you think there is?
Poetic justice.
I do.
I do.
I'm convinced.
You're such an optimist.
I'm more of an optimist than an amethyst.
I always have been.
It's just my nature.
Well, you're fun.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Wolf.
Hello.
Yes.
Art, you took the wind out of my sails and I don't know how you did it.
Try and sail on, sir.
Yeah, well, for 15 minutes I was thinking of the question to ask when you came back on the air to Dr. Wolf about our parallel universes and if one blew up, you know, how would it affect the other.
Yes.
And I was sneaking a listen and I heard you say it and I couldn't believe it.
So does that mean I've been in a parallel universe listening to you?
Well, I'm not sure, but in honor of you, sir, I will, again, I don't know, sort of engage that question a little bit.
Professor, when I said that, there are many people who think that, in fact, this parallel universe thing is true, and there are other parallel universes where the quantum science that we're now pursuing is already a done deal.
That perhaps if we harmed ourselves in some way, we would harm some or change some other reality, and there are those in that reality now who might be concerned about that, and they might travel here to try and stop some catastrophic event that would affect them.
Yes.
I've written a scenario like that in an earlier book called Parallel Universes that I wrote, which has some more on time travel.
So, if you want to read more about that, about such kinds of scenarios, I've kind of looked into them, as many as I can imagine, and I haven't been able yet to find one that I can't get myself out of.
Well, in this new quantum world, though, couldn't there be that?
Couldn't there be an effect from one universe to the next, since quantum It seems to involve the concept of one thing being in two places at one time.
That's very interesting.
You could indeed go to another universe where you find yourself.
Exactly.
And you can create paradoxical situations as a result of where is your consciousness at the moment.
And those are interesting to contemplate.
But there's actually no paradox.
When you do this kind of traveling, You actually form a nested set of parallel universes in which there's an alternate.
They alternate in the universes where there's only one you to with the universes where there are two yous.
And you can find a whole logical sequence in which you and you Are going along smoothly in one universe and in half of those universes, and you by yourself are going along smoothly in the others.
What happens, however, is in all the universes where you are as a single entity, when you time travel and go backwards in time to the other universes where you meet yourself again, there's two of you then.
In those universes, the universe to the left, you're no longer in.
Got it.
Hold it right there.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
From the high desert, at the bottom of the hour.
I'm Art Bell.
Well this is Coast to Coast AM.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
We wanna sing the blues and you know we don't come easy You don't...
We wanna sing the blues and you know we don't come easy Happy and I'm smiling, walk me miles to drink your water
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pressing option 5 and dialing toll free 800-893-0903.
From coast to coast, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Living in the past, perhaps one day, we're all going to be able to do exactly that.
Or, Dr. Wolf suggests pop into a machine and You're 10 years younger, or 20 years younger.
Does that idea appeal?
If you could...
Once again, Dr. Fred Allen Wolfe.
Dr. Wolfe, you're two books.
Taking the Quantum Leap and The Yoga of Time Travel, both available, I presume, on Amazon.com, bookstores, that kind of thing?
Actually, there's 11 of them, and about six or seven of them are still available at Amazon.com.
Some of them have gone out of print, but yes, the Taking the Quantum Leap is still available.
The Yoga of Time Travel is available.
Mind Into Matter is available.
Matter Into Feeling is.
Just go to my website.
Your favorite book so far?
So far, I'm liking my latest book, The Yoga of Time Travel.
It's the most fun I've had with this.
Of course.
It's always the latest, anyway.
It's always the latest, yeah.
I have a hard question for you.
Yeah.
If time travel becomes possible, and maybe I better qualify it, are you imagining that one day time travel into the past, into a time Prior to the invention of time travel, will that ever be possible or no?
That's a good question.
That's why I asked it.
And I'm not really sure of this answer right now.
It seems to me we're going to need a machine back there.
And that's the current thinking.
Kip Thorne thinks so.
Hawking thinks so.
I mean, you know, I'm kind of leaning on these guys because these are the real experts in this thing.
And they believe we're going to have to have something back there, like a wormhole back there or something like that.
It's wonderful that you answered the question that way.
Otherwise, had you affirmed we could have done that, I would have asked you, and you can still choose to answer it or now you don't have to at all, if you were to go back to the time of Christ and to observe for yourself the passion of the Christ, would you return Disappointed, or with your faith forever indelibly in place?
Well, my faith would be more indelibly in place to not witness anything as horrific as the movie The Passion of the Grim Reaper.
That was horrible.
Yeah, horrible as that was, though.
But to actually spend time with A spiritual master of any elk at any time to me would be very heartening.
And I don't care if he's alive today or not.
I mean, spiritual masters are not that easy to come by.
And so when you have time to spend with them, it's very worth your while.
I'm planning to go to India next year because there's one spiritual master that I'd like to spend some time with.
I've been in India four times.
Hey, this is Joe in Michigan.
his temples where i felt uh... a presence which i can only explain is
being or one of the of a high devoted spiritual master
and uh... there are a lot of those guys in india talk that's the place to go alright uh... while caroline you're
on the air with the social good morning
it is you know in michigan
all right my basic question revolves around the fact that uh...
uh... everything is uh... moving in the universe The Earth is moving around the Sun, the Sun's moving around the galaxy, the galaxy's moving around other galaxies.
How, um, when you travel time, do you, uh, get sent back to the, uh, to the right place?
And what I mean by that is, uh... Oh, I know what you mean.
We can stop right there.
Um, it is a wonderful question, and I, I've pondered that myself.
I mean, to travel in time means you travel... Oh, I mean space.
The Earth just continues along, so don't you pop back into the vacuum?
Well, you see, the whole thing is that you've got to begin to start thinking about alternate realities.
Not only do you go to a different place, you literally go to a different universe!
So, the question of place becomes almost mute, or moot in this case, because you're really in another universe.
There's no way to travel back, from the way I understand it, you cannot go back in time unless you go to another universe.
Perhaps mute as well.
I mean, who knows?
It might not even be sound.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Wolf.
Hello.
Yes, sir.
When Einstein developed his mass-energy equation, he threw out the negative one.
Would he have been the father of quantum mechanics if he could have recognized that this was the coupled photons, or matter and antimatter?
And for that matter, if you look out of the galaxy, could you tell what the solid bodies are?
Regular matter or anti-matter.
Well, hold on.
Did Einstein throw out the negative?
Well, it kind of depends on how you look at that.
The basic equation has squares in it, so you might say there's a possibility of negative appearance.
In that sense, you could say maybe he did throw it out.
But there's a little bit more to it than that.
It's not quite that simple.
It really is Dirac, Paul Adrian Maurice Dirac, who Who, in solving the quantum mechanics of the things that Einstein discovered, realized that he couldn't throw out the negative mass solution.
Okay, there you are.
What was the second question?
If you look out at a galaxy, can you tell whether the solid bodies are matter or antimatter?
Not at first sight, because antimatter and matter behave identically until you bring them together.
Right.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Wolf.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Oh, this is my most favorite thing.
I have two comments to make and then a question.
Yes.
The first time we talked years ago was regarding light and time and a dream that I had asked God to tell me how we can live forever.
And he said he's light.
And because there's no time and light, then we can be there.
And since then, and this is my question for you, Doctor, have you heard of the strongest concordance for the study of the Hebrew?
Are you there?
Yeah, I'm there.
I'm waiting for you to finish that.
There are Hebrew scriptures which, ma'am, say what?
Well, one is that in Ecclesiastes it talks about the silver cord, and you hit the nail on the head because In translating each number of each word, God says that he is the self-existent eternal jaw, and there's two of them.
There's this one, and then another one I want to share, because he explains how UFOs move.
And this one is... Let's stick with this one.
Okay, that an eternity of time and space, that God says he is an eternity of space and time, and from a crossing place desired inherited company.
Yes, alright, well that's right down your alley, Professor Wright.
Yeah, well, yes, what's interesting about the caller's comment is that the number of mythologies, I'll call them mythologies, not in a pejorative sense, the number of mythologies of spiritual practices that have similar myths or similar stories.
Whether we're talking about the great God Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita, or Brahma, the great God Brahma, or whether we're talking about our great God, Jehovah, whatever one we're talking about, there is the general understanding that this God is beyond space and time, and comes from a timeless, spaceless realm, and is itself all time or eternity.
And then the question is, what is it like to be eternity?
And eternity means it's perennial now.
All right.
International Line, you're on the air with Professor Wolfe.
Good morning.
Yes.
It's an honor to be on your show.
Glad to have you, sir.
You're going to have to yell at us.
You're not too loud.
OK.
I'm very sorry.
I had a question for Dr. Wolfe.
Yes.
It was in regards to his metaphor with time being a string.
And I wondered if the genetic code was ever destroyed, if it in fact is a loop, if we would not be here, because the genomic helix... I'm listening to you, I'm just waiting for you to finish.
Okay, yep, the genomic helix is the biological string of the previous metaphor, and about the double-splitted experiment with the particles reacting with each other, my question was, is that relative to the double helix or the twin helix of our genome?
Okay, let me answer real quickly.
No, it's not.
And actually, the particles don't interact with each other.
That's what makes the double slit even more miraculous.
They go through one at a time.
There's no interaction between the particles.
They land one at a time.
It's only the pattern you see built up which tells you that the different possibilities are interfering with each other.
Do they arrive as nearly as we can measure or determine exactly simultaneously, Professor?
One particle leaves, one particle arrives.
That's it.
The question is, how does it get there?
And the answer is, it travels via both paths to get there.
Yeah, that's incredible.
Alright, first time caller on the line, you're on the air with Professor Wolfe.
Hi.
Yeah, thanks Art for taking my call.
You bet.
This is Paul from Salt Lake.
You know the one thing with time travel, what got me motivated to call was the light, the proton going down the two slots.
You know, where he's saying that, you know, it's sort of evidence of possibly other dimensions or other universes.
You know, my aspect in looking at the whole subject is, you know, light, that proton, let's say a galaxy 12 billion light years away, it's traveling that far to reach our telescopes today.
So, you know, apparently the proton The photon of light, you know, is packing a lot of energy to travel that far a distance in time.
Not only that, it's racing against the universe that is expanding.
You know, it's a pretty powerful thing.
Now, if you want to look at it in the aspect of the SWOT, you could be dealing with, you know, they say most of the energy in the universe we can't see, like dark energy or dark matter.
Well, it's possible.
It's all around us.
And light is using that energy that we can't see or detect to keep that proton traveling through space.
So when it burrows its way, say, to the right channel in your test, it's used up that energy for that proton of light to travel effectively through the first hole that it gets to.
and the second proton, falling right on its heels, is all of a sudden, with a choice of sort of that dead zone,
where that first photon of light is burrowed through the energy field,
it decides to choose the other side.
So hence, you start getting this pattern, of the shades, like he was talking about.
That's just my comment on that whole subject.
Professor?
Well, what I'd like you to do, Caller, is to do a little more reading, and actually, you know, just hearing it over the telephone, or hearing it over the radio, doesn't quite give you the whole picture.
You've got to really spend a little time reading about this, because once you do, you see that some of the things you're talking about don't really make sense in terms of what's experimentally observed.
It doesn't quite work that way that you're imagining.
It's not one slit or the other.
It's not like that.
It's really each particle going through both slits at the same time.
And that's hard enough to wrap your brain around.
And that's something you have to spend some time with to really see what the heck that means.
Exactly.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Professor Wolfe.
Hi.
Hello.
This is Gloria calling from Salt Lake City.
Gloria!
I have admired you, Dr. Wolfe, for so long a time.
And it's a pleasure to talk with you.
I have a question.
I had a very powerful experience some years ago where I became a holograph.
Unexpectedly, it was an experience I can't quite explain.
But through the experience, I became aware that my consciousness was creating reality.
on a screen of energy before my eyes, and my eyes seem to work as a holographic beam, or a set of beams.
And I perceived from that, that reality not only is coming out of perception, or my mind is part of that creative process, but that consensus was formed by a series of iso-cubes, which is what I was called, And was aware that everyone is holographic as well.
So I wanted to ask you about that within the context of what you're saying.
I've always felt that the body, in a sense, was the pattern of a larger reality.
You know, it's the mirror image of science that we talk about often.
But that the body, with its trillion cells, one cell in many, Well, I think there's some evidence that what you're saying is true.
In one of the books I wrote called Mine in the Matter, I take that pattern up seriously in terms of what the ancient alchemists used to talk about.
They would say not only as above, so below, they would also say as within, so without.
So that the processes that we see taking place within our body are also processes that we can see taking place universally, if we look at them a certain way.
And so there is some truth to this.
And the idea of a holographic being is one that is also not only just thought of metaphysically, but currently physicists are looking seriously at the idea of a holographic universe.
While you would say that science and the metaphysical are already meeting right now, how far ahead, Professor, do you think it will be before it'll be what we call an incontrovertible head-on collision?
It's not going to be a collision.
It's going to be when you are trying to get on a freeway.
If you try to get on a freeway without an on-ramp, You're in trouble!
There's going to be an on-ramp.
You're going to get on, and you're just going to flow right into the traffic.
And that's what's happening.
There's a confluence going on, not a collision.
And from what I've seen happen in the last, you know, I've been on the planet now for a while, what I've seen happen in the years that I've seen go by is that the confluence is rapidly flowing faster And so I expect to see a full confluence within five to ten years.
Quickening, perhaps?
It's definitely quickening.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Wolf.
Hello.
Hi.
I wanted to touch on something that you were talking about the new movie, What the Bleep Do We Know?
Uh-huh.
And you called it an awakening, and that is something that I've experienced twice in my life, where basically Something was said to me once in a dream and then I remembered that same thing once outside a dream that basically shook me loose from this reality and made me suddenly look around and see everything for exactly what it was and I mean it was an expansion, it was an awakening, it was like how could I not know this?
Did it last?
And it's, no, it didn't last.
My mind clamped down on it and said, you can't have that.
Right.
No, I'm with you all the way.
And I was, you know, I was right back here.
But what it's left me with was this certain knowledge that we are more than we think we are.
Gotcha.
No, that's all the way, sir.
Hold on.
Professor?
I'm in total agreement.
It looks like the three of us have had these experiences.
It sounds like you've had one too, Art.
I have.
I've had them several times.
In fact, for a while, I was having them so often that they became a whole hum.
That's really bizarre.
I can't even imagine that.
I know.
Perhaps one.
That's what's so remarkable about consciousness.
I mean, you could take any experience, you know, the first time you have it, it's, wow, great, but it keeps repeating after a while.
You think, wow, you know, this is the way it is.
It's hard to imagine it would ever get old.
I know.
I know.
That's what's so remarkable about consciousness.
It actually does.
Well, this is some reality that you've laid out for us, and I guess that's how you think of all of this, right?
Reality?
I don't know what other word to use.
And when I said collision, I meant, well, you know, eventually, as we move forward in this timeline, there is going to be that moment where science is going to confirm something that was previously so metaphysical that people chuckled their tail ends off about it, and that's going to be a kind of a collision, right?
Well, we can call it that if you like to, but Sabine Collision has a kind of a violent overtone to it, and of course, we do just like to collide things together.
That's what we do.
You do, don't you?
All right, my friend.
Listen, thank you so much for being here.
I hope your books, and well, I guess I don't have to hope they are selling like crazy, and will increasingly sell at a quickening rate.
Professor, thank you for being here.
Thank you very much, Art, for having me on the show.
I really enjoyed it.
We'll have you back.
Good night, my friend.
Good night.
And for the rest of you, see you tomorrow night.
First time on the color line, you are on the air.
That had to mess with your mind a little bit, huh?
time it went away. This is going to be something. Something.
Something. That had to mess with your mind a little bit, huh?
Ten after midnight on the starry satellite sky. A light wig taking in the cover of dark. Can't stop it, I hear that
ride.
Live conversations, bein' out to us all in the dark Real-life phone line, all their experts Warnin' the world things are fallin' apart
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