Cleve Backster, the 1966 polygraph pioneer, revealed plants and even yogurt bacteria react to human intent—like wilting under acid rock or thriving with positive thoughts—proving distant, non-physical communication. His CIA-linked experiments, replicated by Russians in 1973 using hypnosis, showed organisms like Dracaena leaves and leukocytes respond to threats or emotions from miles away, defying classical science. Skeptics dismiss it as unrepeatable, but Backster insists sensitivity, not replication, matters, citing EEG-like reactions in eggs and trees near Mount St. Helens. From Ed Mitchell’s orbital cell tests to Native American plant awareness, his work suggests a hidden biological intelligence—one that could reshape how we perceive life, consciousness, and even planetary interconnectedness. [Automatically generated summary]
Mah desert in the great American Southwestern area, just adjacent to area 51.
This is supposed to be a weekend version.
I'm ourselves glad to be here this evening with all of you and an honor and privilege of the host of the weekend.
Interesting night tonight.
We Baxter is here and he's the original guy who did all the research on the plants.
And by the way, I want to call your attention to a photograph up on the website.
It's pretty cool.
You've got to dig in a little bit past the front story and continue with the article, you know, on the second page, and then you just click on, oh, where is it?
The photos from Fate Magazine.
And these are pretty impressive.
A photograph really does convey millions of words.
And the photograph on the front page here is, or at least on the Fate Magazine portion on the second page of the website, is of two sets of plants.
One exposed to, well, a classical music, soothing classical music, and they're just growing and they're happy and they're green and they're prolific.
And then down below it is one, you can even see a little of the amp up above doing the job.
They're exposed to acid rock.
And they are dying, deadly, drooping in brown.
They have been killed by acid rock.
Wonder what that says.
Anyway, the subject for next hour with the man who did all of this, Cleve Baxter.
Now, in the world right now, bloodied by weeks of suicide bombings and assassinations, Iraqi security forces emerged Sunday to control Samorra after a morale-boosting victory in this Sunni triangle city.
And U.S. commanders praised their performance.
American and Iraqi commanders have declared the operation in Samara 60 miles northwest of Baghdad to be a successful first step in a major push to wrest key areas of Iraq from insurgents before the elections in January.
So a little good news.
It's not too many nights on the job here.
You get to read any good news at all, but that's a little good news from Iraq for a change.
Now, the volcano.
Headline, Mount St. Helens may take weeks to erupt.
I know people who have already displaced themselves, getting out of the way of what they fear will be worse than what the scientists predict.
Mount St. Helens stewed in volcanic gases and low-level earthquakes Sunday with crowds of eager tourists hoping to glimpse an eruption that scientists said could happen immediately or in a few weeks now.
A second long tremor earlier on Sunday and an increase in volcanic gases strongly suggest magma is on the move.
Researchers from the U.S. Geological Survey said the mountains alert was raised to level three, the highest possible, after a volcanic tremor was detected Saturday for the first time since the mountain's 1980 eruption.
So I wonder if earthquake prediction is like hurricane track prediction, not exactly a totally settled science, apparently.
So it could go kaboom, or it could just go or it could do nothing at all.
I suppose there is that range, but they have it at level three, indicating get ready, here she comes.
The military now is in the final stages of readying its national ballistic missile defense system.
Did you know that?
Officials predicting it will be activated before year's end.
But several questions remain, including how well the experimental missile interceptors actually work.
The Pentagon, of course, maintains that any defense against intercontinental ballistic missiles is better than none.
Critics contend the Bush administration is vastly overselling an expensive, unproven defense system.
So we have the missiles poised to do their job.
However, apparently they're not certain whether they will do their job.
And maybe we will not know until there is an intercontinental ballistic attack.
And then you're going to want to cross your fingers, knock on whatever you got, pressed wood, whatever.
Incidentally, last night's guest, Dr. Tess Gerritson, I told you that was a good book, and it would appear as though you are at least taking a chance on it.
Her book, Gravity, was in the thousands on Amazon.com, and we did the program last night.
I gave you my personal endorsement.
This book is one exciting book, probably the most exciting I've ever read, and said, go grab it.
You know, just go grab it.
Trust me on this and go grab it at Amazon.com.
It has risen from somewhere in the thousands to like number 36 on Amazon.
So obviously a lot of you are taking my recommendation.
And what I would hope is that after you've read it, you will send me an email.
That's easy to do.
I'm quite accessible on the web, artbell at Mindspring.com or artbell at aol.com and give me your assessment.
I thought it truly was about the most exciting book I've ever read.
Yes, it's a little on the techie side, although not in a way that the average person cannot digest quite readily, particularly those of you who listen to this program.
I mean, you're just going to suck it up.
You're going to love it.
All right.
In the morning, the X Prize may be won.
Mojave, California, $10 million riding on a 90-second rocket blast over California's Mojave Desert on Monday morning.
In some time zones, that is today.
If Spaceship One follows its flight plan, including a straight-up trajectory above a 100-kilometer altitude mark and then back down again, the team behind that spacecraft will win the X Prize, that's $10 million, as well as the trophy and multi-million dollar purse that goes with it.
But anything can happen, as was demonstrated during Spaceship One's two previous spaceflights.
In June, unexpected wind shear and a control system glitch knocked the plane off course last Wednesday during the first prize-worthy flight.
There have to be two to win the prize.
Spaceship One experienced an unanticipated dramatic roll that led its skipper, veteran test pilot Mike Melville, to shut the engine down 11 seconds early.
In both cases, Spaceship One successfully went beyond the 100-kilometer mark in altitude.
And so this is serious stuff.
Monday's flight, due to begin at the Mojave Airport at 7 a.m. sharp, serves as the climax of the eight-year X-Prize program following up on Spaceship One's first official spaceflight in June last Wednesday's flight.
Payback at last.
Success would result in the first substantial payback for Mojave Aerospace Ventures, the corporation that builds the rocket Spaceship One.
It would bring vindication for the main players behind the ventures, spacecraft designer Bert Rutan, of course, of Mojave-based scaled composites and the ventures' financial backer, software billionaire Paul Allen, who said he has now invested more than $20 million to win the $10 million prize.
Rutan and Allen already are looking forward to future payoffs from Spaceship One as well, though.
And what they say, basically, is that this is for us.
It'll establish in the minds of the average American, all of us, the fact that it is something that you can actually consider in your lifetime, space tourism, that you can buy a seat to space.
I wonder how many of you would if you could.
Now, you heard tests last night on the danger of going into space, the probable number of things percentage-wise that can go wrong and kill you in any given flight based on the accidents that have occurred so far.
Now, this, of course, is a private effort, perhaps not as many moving parts as the shuttle, but nevertheless, you'd have to think it over very carefully.
Would you pay to do it?
Anyway, I wish them Godspeed and wish them well and hope they win the prize because it will open a new era where all of us might consider that in our lifetimes, wouldn't that be something?
You just sort of never imagined that possible, but in our lifetimes, we might get that ride.
We might get to take a ride.
Question is, would you?
Remember we were talking last night about ELF and the fact that the Navy is now giving up in Wisconsin and the areas where they have all these gigantic antennas to talk to submarines.
You remember that?
Good.
Here's an email from a lieutenant, I'm not going to give his name, a lieutenant commander, a U.S. Navy retired.
Our Navy's TACAMO, T-A-C-A-M-O, an acronym for I don't know what, uses VLF and is survivable.
This means very low frequency, not extremely.
I used to be a mission commander, airborne communications officer for both the Pacific and Atlantic tours of duty.
Get this, with a seven-mile plus-plus dual-trailing wire.
That means a seven-mile wire behind an aircraft.
Two of them, actually, one shorter than the other, serves as a counterpoise.
Signals, in fact, do get to the subs.
It uses a secret modulation technique to get below the noise level.
But as a ham operator myself, I once convinced the Navy to keep CW as well.
To the human mind, trained CW operators can indeed hear a steady tone below the noise floor.
I flew a C-130Q for years.
We orbit to get the wire vertical, both helically.
Now they use E6As, a 707 variant with big turbo bypass engines.
Fixed ELF stations are not survivable.
I'll get it survivable, costly, and of course politically unsavory in Michigan.
HARP, VLF, and Chemtrails have nothing to do with each other.
Okay, I guess I can buy that aircraft with trailing wires could do that.
But would that be the normal way that we would communicate with our subs minus the ELF capability?
You would think during stressful times, we might not be able to get aircraft where we would want them to accomplish this with X number of miles of wire trailing behind them.
It seems a kind of a clumsy way to achieve communication with any given submarine under the water.
The hum is faint, but it represents the release of energy equivalent to an earthquake of magnitude 5.75 to 6.
It is made up of notes in the frequency range of between 2 and 7 millihertz in musical terms, or about 16 octaves below middle C. To pin down the hum source, the researchers analyzed seismic data from ground monitoring stations in California and Japan from the last 60 days in 2000 when there were no earthquakes to drown out the noise.
They worked out the hum was tied to winter in each hemisphere when ocean storms are most severe.
Our results show the ocean plays a key role in the excitation of Earth's hum.
So there you have it.
They found what causes that hum, and they're saying it's crashing ocean waves reverberating, setting up a vibration at the very base of the ocean.
Kind of an interesting story from Georgia.
It was 1959 or 1960, as Best Smith remembers, as he trawled for shrimp off the coast of Georgia, but his net snagged on something big, an object so heavy he had to get a diving buddy to shake the net loose.
You know what he caught, huh?
He caught a nuclear weapon.
He dived down, and when he came up, he said, hey, that's a bomb.
Recalled Smith, 72 years of age.
I wrote anything much of at the time, thought he was cutting the fool or something was the expression.
Smith's story still fascinates.
His 50-year-old son Glenn, the younger Smith, figures his dad caught the so-called Tybee bomb, a 7,600-pound nuclear device dumped by a damaged B-47 bomber in February of 1958.
And so they now think they may know where this bomb is.
The Air Force is hot and cold on going to get it, at one point saying, ah, nah, you know, leave it where it is, wherever it is.
They did go look for it and gave up a long time ago.
Now, they may go back and take another look.
But in the meantime, there are others, Miss Father, for example, who says he let the mystery drop after retrieving the net, and others who want to go out and take a boat and go and get their nuclear bomb, or our nuclear bomb, actually.
Boy, I'll tell you, if you owned a nuclear weapon, you would be the envy of the neighborhood.
Well, I don't know about maybe not the envy.
You'd be well respected, no question about that.
Imagine owning a nuclear bomb, a nuclear bomb of your own, one that you could have, oh, I don't know, in the basement.
And every now and then, I'd be a hell of a conversation piece.
You wouldn't believe what I have in my basement.
And you could put a little clock on top that would tick down to impress visitors.
I think that these volcanoes are coming from burned ocean floor sediment that is subducted under the edge of the continent by spreading ocean floor.
Now this buried sediment turns calcium carbonate into calcium oxide and carbon dioxide while the water turns into superheated steam and that floats upward and explodes out of the top right above the subduction zone at the edge of the continents.
So if you just look at this ring of fire, it's all around the edge of the Pacific Ocean where the ocean floor is subducting under the edge of the continents.
It is a fine morning here in the desert, presently about 65 degrees out there.
if you've got something really cool share with all of us and pick up your phone dial one of those numbers and in a moment will rock the the A nuclear bomb would be really cool, wouldn't it?
Yeah, one.
I was going to mount a rocket in our front yard.
You know, like about a 20 or 30-foot rocket.
I figured that'd get neighborhood respect, but Ramona wouldn't let me do it.
Actually, I'm told that most things that fall into the ocean like that actually help the fish.
unidentified
Unless, of course, it blows up and then probably makes fish blow in the dark.
Another thing is my wife's upset with you because you changed your intro from what you used to do to the kingdom of night, and she misses your old intro like that.
Yes, well, indeed, it is the Kingdom of Nigh, sir.
Believe me, this area where I live is, while we are now, I am told, the fastest-growing unincorporated town in America.
Can you believe that for Prump?
Oh, you ought to see what's going on around here.
It's incredible.
There's building going on everywhere.
It's like a land grab going on in Prump here.
And When we moved here, it was a sleepy little, you know, sort of suburban desert town, and now it's blossoming into this incredible thing.
And another five years, we'll probably have 100,000 people here.
I think there may be in the order of 30 to 40, maybe closer to 40,000.
No one's really sure.
It's really everywhere you look, it's growing like crazy.
Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified
Hi.
Hi.
I was on hold for a little bit.
I was wanting to talk about it because I was having a discussion in a chat channel.
Why should we go to the moon or even space?
I mean, what will we gain from the knowledge of our solar system?
All the graphs and technology of the masses didn't tell us what exactly happened to our solar system and why we sustain life and live when other planets don't.
really was in what would that back when we ran the story uh...
what shocked me about it was that we were getting so many of the you But lo and behold, we were getting stories from Phoenix all the way up into this area about black mold.
And one just has to wonder a little bit how you could collect enough moisture under general circumstances, not sliding or pipe breaking, that sort of thing, but under general circumstances to feed something like that in the desert.
It does not make sense.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
unidentified
Yes, they say borax, making a paste out of borax, the only way to kill that black mold.
Well, let me tell you about this, and I want to know if any of the listeners have ever seen anything similar.
The only way that I could even see it, it was totally unlit.
But what it did do was it blocked out whatever was, you know, beyond it.
That way I saw it was a shape.
It was elongated, totally black, looked sort of like a dirigible, a rather large one, except that it was wider in the middle than an average dirigible and pointed at both ends.
And it was definitely slowly moving.
I was surprised there was no reason for there to be a dirigible above St. Petersburg-Clearwater International Airport.
It's a commercial airport.
It would have been kind of dangerous, but it was high up.
And it was just sort of slowly floating up there.
And I just wondered if anybody has ever seen anything similar.
Particularly here in the West, where we do have that view of the number and the beast, right?
What about the rest of you, if you were confronted with that sort of bleak decision to continue living in the manner to which you had become accustomed?
Or becoming a street person, you decide not to take the chip.
You know, as many calls as we get like that, even though it seems like a joke, there ought to be some Ghostbusters, you know, that, you know, for a fee, would go to a place and stop ghosts from urinating in the middle of the night or whatever all they're up to.
Basically, there were two chiefs that both had the love for the same woman.
And they kept sending their people to war, trying to get the love of this woman by making war against each other.
Well, the Great Spirit saw this, made it rain for a long time until all the fires went out.
Well, these two chiefs decided, you know, we've just got to put this fighting to an end.
And they saw up on a hill a teepee with fire in it.
And they went, and the two brothers, who finally got along after fighting over this woman for years, there in the tent was the woman.
Now, she had fire again, and she said, if you will stop fighting and stop this useless killing, you know, we will make you a permanent part of the landscape.
She was, I guess, Mother Nature.
I didn't quite understand that part of it.
But they turned one into one Indian chief into Mount Rainier, the other Indian chief into the, oh gosh, the other mountain south of it, and the mountain in between was her, Mount St. Helen.
But the entire premise of the whole story to tell the tribe was you, you know, if you are sent into useless wars and kill each other for useless reasons, Mount St. Helen will blow again.
For all these years of doing this program, I've heard these rumors approaching the giant myth category about Cleve Baxter and his work.
And I've seen and talked to people who have recited some of Cleve Baxter's work.
But tonight, here is Cleve Baxter.
Cleve Baxter is the founder of the Baxter Research Foundation and currently teaches at the Baxter School of Lie Detection.
He's also on the teaching faculty at California Institute for Human Science and serves on the advisory board at the Institute of Heart Math.
Cleve is an international speaker on the subject of biocommunication, has been a professional observer of human psychopsychological tracings since 1948.
A long, long time.
Since 1966, Cleve has conducted extensive research related to observed electrical responses in plant life and at a cellular level in other living organisms.
His research into what he has called, or has been called, the Baxter effect has attracted worldwide attention and, as I mentioned, has been sort of recited here, sometimes, I thought, almost as myth, the work Clete Baxter has done in a moment from the man himself.
And in a laboratory I had there, I had only two plants in this laboratory.
I had a Dracena cane plant.
That's one of those with a long trunk and long leaves, and a rubber plant.
And it occurred to me one night, because I work very much late at night in polygraph research.
I wonder how long it takes water to get from the root area of that Dracena all the way up through that trunk and down into those long leaves.
So I figured, well, you know, I've got polygraph equipment all over the place.
That was at school we were running back then.
And the galvanic skin response section of the polygraph is supposed to measure resistance changes.
So I thought if I took a couple of those electrodes that we use, the finger contacts on people, and just sort of strapped them on each side of one of those long leaves down toward the end, after I watered the plant, as the contaminated water would go up the trunk and down into the leaves, the leaf would become a better conductor.
Well, years after the fact, I know very much what it is, because the plant was in such a state of excitation at being attached that it was already equivalent of a high human emotional level, and it had nothing to do but calm down from where it was.
Well, it didn't take very long for me to figure something was not going by schedule.
About one minute along in this initial observation, I saw something that looked very much like the contour of the galvanic skin response tracing with a human that was telling an important lie on the polygraph.
The figure to the left is the actual tracing from the plant, and then the figure to the right is a typical tracing from a human taking a polygraph test.
So this changed my priorities, and I stopped worrying about how long it took moisture to rise, and I said, wow, it's almost as though this plant is showing me human-like reactions.
And so I changed my priority then, and I said, well, what can I do that would be threatening the well-being of a plant, similar to the threat to the well-being of a person taking a polygraph test and lying on a very important question, such as, did you fire that shot causing the death of so-and-so?
You know, on the right-hand page there, on page 25, then you'll see that around 13 minutes along in this initial tracing, I thought, well, I know what I'll do to threaten the well-being of this plant.
Yeah, see, well, if you just attach a plant up and everything is well and just spiffy, does a plant go through gyrations in a 24-hour period like that, or does it generally stay flat-lined?
You'll notice leading up until that intention on my part to do something to threaten the well-being of the plant, it was fairly calm.
The little sirrations that you see in the tracing are different than the smooth tracing you would get from a human because the plant, the cellular discharge from the cells of the plant go directly up into the electrodes.
And with a human, you have cellular discharge from the cells, but the body is such that it acts like a capacitor.
Well, the research that followed that, this is the thing that launched it, there are many, many observations that followed this that really reinforced the idea that the plant was very much into the quality of your thinking.
And probably the method of transfer is imagery, not words, because I wasn't speaking out loud.
And just the intent and my envisioning in order, you know, the idea of burning that plant leaf was picked up by the plant.
Well, as following through from this, I went from the plants and I got into a whole series of testing of chicken eggs and found out how to electrode those.
And then from there, it went to bacterial cultures, etc.
Well, I had a dopamine pincer in the lab back in New York, and I would feed the dog an egg a day.
I would separate the yolk from the white.
And this particular day, when I was running a, really it was a long-term monitoring of the plant.
In this particular case, I had run hundreds of feet of chart paper just trying to see what the plant had to show me rather than to make it do things.
And then I eventually ended up piping the signal into a meter so I didn't use up so much chart paper.
It was pretty expensive.
And the meter was sitting on this little shelf where I was preparing the dog's food.
And when I cracked the egg, the meter just went into wild agitation.
And nothing had happened except my cracking of the egg.
And so I thought, wow, I'm not going to let this get the best of me.
I'll figure out a way to electrode that egg.
Something's going on there.
And so I figured out that if I boiled a couple little cubes of sponge in a little saline water and then pinched the moisture out of them and put them on each side of the egg, the moisture would soak through the outer eggshell and hit the inner skin of the eggs and it made an ideal electroding configuration.
Well, the only way that I've been able to do it is to totally automate the experiment and have a programmer that actually executes the whole experiment, and I leave the lab at the time it's going on.
In fact, the initial experiment that I published before I went public with this thing involved the automated dropping of brine shrimp in simmering water at one end of the lab.
And at the other, in several different rooms, there were plants attached to each to a separate polygraph.
And I found that when the earlier I observed very much that plants were very much attuned to the death of any kind of life form in the lab, insects, things of that nature.
And so when I designed that experiment, I chose brine shrimp to stay out of trouble with the anti-visis actionist kind of people.
So is the bottom line of this that everything is apparently or seemingly connected to everything, or is it things in more proximity, Cleve, that are connected to each other?
Well, I've come to the conclusion after really trying to explore this that there is no time consumed because now we're getting into quantum physics and non-locality.
Because non-locality does not involve time consumption or distance limitation.
And if you start to expand that beyond a local distance and say, well, how long does it take something on the other side of the universe to become aware of something going on here as far as the quantum theory is concerned?
And they said zero seconds instead of thousands of light years.
Yes, there's a Bell theorem they seem to cite a lot in non-locality that talks about atoms that are spun in certain directions and the direction changes over a distance and one mimics the other, even though distance is in between.
I was so happy that the quantum physicist came along to give me some support.
Because, you know, people would ask me, would you please define this communication?
And I'd say, whoa, as long as I've been doing the research in this field, the only way I've stayed out of trouble is not to try to explain the nature of the communication as far as the scientific community is concerned.
I said, I can give you hundreds of high-quality observations, but once I try to give you a faulty explanation, then you throw out my good observations.
Well, you're absolutely cautious and correct to do that, and that's exactly what they would do, because there's no good answer to that right now, is there?
Well, when you get into quantum physics, they seem to have delved into it a good bit, but even among physicists, there's lots of discussion and conflict sometimes.
Well, that's because it has to cut right across everything we know about physics and say there's something about everything we know that's totally wrong at some level, at the quantum level, maybe.
Cleve, you know, the average modern American, when they hear the Native Americans say they can talk to trees and communicate with Mother Earth in ways that we don't understand, they generally go, yeah, right.
You know, that kind of attitude.
They just sort of, you know, sure.
But doesn't a lot of what your research seems to show here indicate that their beliefs hold some water?
I mean, your work is incredible, but in a way, I'm trying to shoot holes in it because if it's real, then it has such incredible significance that all of the world science should be all over it.
So that's why I asked you about the skeptics, Cleve.
There must be some major way they knock all this down.
And of course, as far as current scientific method is concerned, it's sort of built on the idea of designing an experiment and getting a lot of repetitions and accumulating data.
And you heard Chris Bird and Peter Tompkins wrote The Secret Life of Plants book.
And Chris Byrd also did Russian translations.
But some of the material that was translated, I found that, well, there was an article called Flower Recall.
When that got translated, I saw that they were doing very sophisticated work in replicating my experiment.
And I went over to Prague in 1973.
There was an international conference on psychotronics, the first international conference, and I was chairman of the plant, animal, human communication section.
And I couldn't understand why these Russian scientists were all coming up and wanting their pictures taken with me.
I don't get that kind of attention back here.
And it turns out that they were very well aware of the Russian replication of this work.
Well, I don't know beyond the very idea of just the pure scientific aspect of it, I guess it's anyone's guess.
But they were doing something that they were using hypnosis in a very good hypnotic subject in order to engender emotionality in the subject in order for the plant to react to it.
And this has been a very difficult thing to do ordinarily.
Yeah, and here, you know, back in my counterintelligence corps days in the Central Intelligence Agency, my big chase around the world practically was to find out what spooky secret interrogation method the Russians were using.
I had a team that could go anywhere to study this.
And it's rather ironic that the thing I was afraid they were using is some kind of hypnosis and post-hypnotic suggestion in order to create espionage contacts in foreign countries.
And it turns out that the very thing that made their replication of my experiment so successful was hypnosis.
There have been these intriguing experiments, of course, Cleve, where they've taken the heart and lungs from one donor and put them in somebody else who then picked up their habits and wants and desires.
Well, the human cells, it really worked up to finally the experiment that we hope to do next now will involve the simultaneous testing of the conventional polygraph parameters, the respiration and the galvanic skin response and the cardiovascular recording,
along with EEG simultaneously, and then also, along with that, another tracing that is measuring the in vitro cells from that same subject that has the hard wire contacts hooked up.
In fact, toward the end of the book, I get into the ultimate thing with the human cell testing.
I've done an awful lot of work testing leukocytes from the human being that we collect by using a little saline solution, having the person munch on the solution, and that brings out white cells, oral leukocytes, through the roof of the mouth.
And we centrifuge that and then pipe that off the concentrated cells and put electrodes in them, gold wire electrodes.
And I've done, in fact, there was a book, Secret Life of Your Cells, that was based on that work that was published about my work.
Well, now, ultimate in that at the HartMath Institute, we did some work that produced the final tracings in the last portion of the book where we just took a sample of human blood and put two gold wire electrodes in that sample of blood, five milliliters of blood, piped it right into standard EEG equipment.
And it got beautiful tracings that seemed to reflect the emotionality of the donor, even though the donor was remotely located at the other side of the room.
And again, because of the school that I conduct teaching police officers primarily how to conduct polygraph tests, that is the thing that has allowed me to sort of struggle along.
I've maintained a very well-equipped lab since 1977, the old Drug Enforcement Agency lab here in San Diego.
Well, I would say if you had a competent examiner using modern technique and the issue was strong enough, not just trivia, that I would say you could not do it.
Now, the technique that I've devised and introduced to the polygraph field is the one that is the standard that is used and favored by the Department of Defense, the Polygraph Institute, and the military and the FBI.
And as much as I've had to do with developing that, I have no feeling that I could beat the polygraph if I had done something that was a rather serious issue.
Oh, I think that you could mess around there and create confusion, at least for the polygraph examiner.
We don't say because if a person sits down to a polygraph to take a test, automatically one situation is as good as another.
In fact, we have a way that we systematically evaluate how good our case information is as one factor, the strength of issue if there's punishment involved, if the polygraph examination leads the investigators to something that's submissible in court, and the distinctness of issue.
If they did it, do they know they did it?
So we have a little five-position scale we apply against each of those factors.
And a good polygraph situation is one that rates very high in all of those.
Good case information, strength of issue, distinctness of issue.
So when you go to the other end of the scale on trivia, you don't have those factors satisfied.
Well, is there a kind of individual, Cleve, and I've heard this from a lot of people over the years, the kind of individual who virtually, virtually believes their own lies?
i know that's tough to grasp about but you know i'm told there are people who who are that way uh...
Anyway, Cleve, you know, I'm so fascinated by all of this.
I really am.
does it mean i mean should we be concluding that plants really do think or should we even if we accept this experimentation as real should we still relegate it to a very very low insignificant level of operation at the cosmic level i mean no i think Because it's going to scream.
Well, I'm not sure about the hate, but there have been, for instance, a number of experiments, in fact, that people could do even without instrumentation.
They can take three plants, this has been done with bean plants primarily, and have three samples of those plants, and they can lavish one sample with all kinds of love and positive thoughts.
They can ignore the middle, and they can just start mentally beat up, not touch it in any way, but have all kinds of negative thoughts, not wishing it well at all.
And there's a vast difference in the growth rate of these over a period of time.
Yeah, in fact, there was a Reverend Franklin Blauer that wrote a book once on the power of prayer on plants.
And it wasn't just the prayer that did it, but it was the attention that did it.
In fact, there was a documentary that I participated in, the Nova show.
The green coat is called the Green Machine.
And they put about 20 minutes on my research, but then they also had his segment in there.
And they were very paranoid about any cheating, so they had a big aquarium that was closed where no one could breathe on the plants and so forth and so on.
And he said the same attention.
And the only thing that was different was that he sat outside this aquarium.
And again, he went through this process of the back of his hand to the one plant, you know, just mentally speaking, not touching it, and ignoring the middle one and casting love and affection toward the others.
Be it sight, sand, the smell of the touch, the something inside that we need so much.
The sight of the touch, or the scent of the sand, or the strength of an oak moves deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, to lie to meadow and hear the grass sing, to have all these things in our memory's heart, and the Easter to come just to die.
Yeah!
Find my nice soul, take this place, on this trip, just for me.
Find, take a free wall, take my place, up my seat, it's for free.
Wanna take a ride?
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Cliff Baxter is really the father of this research into the fact that plants react.
Plants apparently have a memory.
Plants apparently communicate the way many things do instantly across any distance you can fathom.
And all of this is difficult, I know, to fathom, but these experiments have been done and then repeated and done again.
and if it's true and i don't see how you can come to any other conclusion although will try but if it's true changes everything so All right.
Once again, Cleve Baxter.
Cleve, welcome back.
Thank you.
Before we leave the whole lie detector area, if we even do, we've met people on the show.
You know, people have made claims about things they've seen and, you know, stuff like that.
And, for example, some of them have failed or their first lie detector test has been declared to be inconclusive.
So if generally our reactions are, I don't know, I guess I'm asking, can we sit in a place all hooked up and manufacture a series of reactions in our head that, although not showing physically, have the needles jumping all over the place to the point where a readable reaction is not possible?
Well, I'll tell you, people have tried the biofeedback, and that doesn't work very well because there's a time delay before they can actually create any changes in the rate of the heart or blood pressure.
And the entire theory of the polygraph technique that I've introduced into the field involves a focusing of psychological setup or prioritizing, because within the structure of the polygraph test, we actually build in a question where they will be telling a minor lie.
And the only person that has the luxury to focus on that, because these involve character evaluation type questions that they would like to look good on, if that is, they're not lying to the big one, if they're telling the truth to the serious question, like did you fire that shot causing the death of so-and-so?
And then we ask the question about during the first 18 years of your life, did you ever hurt somebody who truly loved and trusted you?
They will focus on, if they're lying to that big question, they'll focus on that and float right through the small lie.
On the other hand, if they're telling the truth to the serious question, they will float through that and hit on this minor lie because they want to look good character-wise.
And so this is the whole basis of the numerical evaluation of photograph charts.
If they have the luxury to focus on these small, innocuous attempts at deception, that gives them plus points.
On the other hand, if they show a strong reaction to the relevant question, that gives them minus points.
And then we have numerical cutoffs, et cetera, that allow us to know when we have conclusive deception or truth or inconclusive in between, if it doesn't make either one of the cutoffs.
Well, Curlian photography, I've had people in my lab that have attempted that, where they cut out part of the plant and then they use a kind of Tesla coil arrangement where it sparks and shows up.
And I believe it was Thelma Moss, I believe it was, in Los Angeles, the university there that did a lot of work on that.
And I think the thing they had to be careful of is there wasn't some kind of contamination from where the whole leaf did rest on a plate.
So I'm not an expert in that, but I've always showed interest in it.
No, in fact, we almost had that as a subtitle for the book, but instead of biocommunication with plants, living foods, and human cells, we were going to use the word sentient, and we were not that sure it would be so meaningful to a lot of people.
You know, because it is a profound word, but we certainly evaluated it carefully and felt it safe to use.
And the thing that I used to, my only complaint with her is that they really had to double-blind the experiment to where the consciousness of the researcher didn't contaminate the experiment.
Because if you have a bunch of people running that experiment that hate classical music, it may not be the music that bothers the plant.
It may be the negative attitude of the experimenter.
These would have to be sound chambers that were, you know, where the experimenter didn't even know the kind of music that was being played at the time.
It would have to be run by a programmer and automated.
That would be the only way you'd get to the bottom of that.
The yogurt bacteria, I found sort of accidentally back in New York when I worked late at night and a lot of times I'd forget to eat dinner the night before and didn't want to go out too early the next morning in the Times Square area.
I had a bunch of yogurt containers with yogurt in the refrigerator in the lab.
And this particular time when I had a tone generator hooked to a plant just doing long-term monitoring because, again, to save the chart paper and not always having to be looking at the meter.
And I took a container of yogurt out and I stuck the spoon to the bottom of the yogurt to stir up the strawberry jam.
And the tone generator just went crazy in the next room.
So this told me that something was going on and the only thing that had changed was I started to stir the jam from the bottom of the yogurt up.
And I had no idea at that time that there were live living bacteria in yogurt.
There are two friendly kinds of bacteria in commercial yogurt.
And so I got my books out on dairy bacteriology and so forth, and I figured, well, there's got to be a way that I can electrode the yogurt.
Unless I'm wrong, Cleve, I believe that when a doctor finishes giving you a regime of very strong antibiotics of some sort, that they then recommend many times that you eat yogurt to recolonize the important bacteria in your stomach.
But anyway, when I heard this, I figured out a way to fill a little 5-milliliter test tube with the yogurt using a little stem and filling from the bottom up and then putting the Goldwire electrodes in the yogurt.
And I've got hundreds of hours of monitoring where everyone that would visit the lab, I would use the sample of yogurt to monitor the events going on in the area.
Then I would use split-screen technology where I'd have one camera on the audience or the group that was visiting and then the other camera over the chart drive.
Well, yogurt is a fantastic, sensitive monitor of human consciousness.
That I am very certain of.
And when two people are debating with each other, when one has the idea of something they want to say to score against the other, just the imagery coming to the mind will create the reaction, and the words come out from the person after.
Prioritizing is the equivalent of the focus of psychological set with humans.
In other words, if one thing is going on that's more important, the cells will focus on that at the expense of the other, where they ordinarily would show to the other.
I had an example in the book on that where I had the American Polygraph Association was visiting San Diego, and I hosted a visit to my lab where several hundred of them were crowded in this lab here in San Diego.
And I thought, well, this is going to be just totally chaotic, because I always felt that I needed to have a very controlled laboratory environment for something to show.
But before they got so crowded I couldn't even move around the lab, well, I balanced in a test tube of yogurt and just let it run.
And to show that at least there are some squiggles and wiggles on the tracing, it was tied into something I had hooked up.
And I thought, well, I wonder if I can get some kind of a reaction out of this if I take the syringe that I used to fill this test tube still had some yogurt in it.
And I was about 15 feet away from the electrodeed sample, and I squirted some of the balance of that yogurt from the syringe into a mixed drink.
It was a vodka tonic, the tail-ended vodka tonic drink.
And there was just a huge reaction from the electrodeed sample.
And this, again, showed that despite the chaos that was going on with all of the polygraph examiners, their wives and kids that were visiting the lab, that the yogurt was still able to tune in to another sample that came from the same source.
And when something happened to that other sample, showed reaction at a distance.
Well, no, I see what you mean, though, and I see what the control was there.
That's really, really interesting.
Cleve, what should all, I mean, if all of this is true, then what does it mean in terms of how we should prioritize or treat our environment, meaning plants and animals and all things around us that we didn't think had the kind of connection that you're saying things do have?
So then we would have to really modify the way we think about it.
Let me go even a little further.
Now, you've done plants.
What about what we think of as inanimate objects?
If, I don't know, you know, my wood desk, other things around us that are made up in a certain molecular way, maybe it's crazy, but it's not that much crazier than asking about plants.
Really, I think that once we were to find a way to be able To properly electrode these so-called inanimates, that we would see that there is something going on there.
The closest I've been able to come to that is to take some filings of wood and even metal and so forth and sprinkle them into some agar-agar compound.
And then agar agar or agar-ager, whichever you want to call it, will firm up as a gel.
And by taking a plug of that agar-ager and put electrodes on each side, I'm able to get little wiggly lines showing that something is coming out of that.
But I don't get the real meaningful free-flowing tracings that I get when I'm hooking up biological materials.
And it has the potential to, oh, I don't know, if it goes off the wrong way, wipe out a lot of land and trees and people and everything around it, just kaboom.
Now, I'm not saying it's going to do it again, but I would think, you know, I'm talking to friends who have animals like dogs in the area behaving very, very, very strangely in that area right now.
And I wonder if something as big from our Earth as a volcanic eruption with all the pressures going on under the Earth.
Well, gee, you would think that if you had electrodes hooked up to some plants and trees in the area, they'd just be going berserko.
I would be very interested in having an opportunity to do that, like the big redwoods and so forth up in California.
Absolutely.
I know that I think this ties in a little bit to some of the material that is done by Rupert Sheldrake.
I know you had him on your show.
You betcha.
And I think that I'm more informed of his research than perhaps he was of mine, so I'm not complaining, but he didn't show too much insight when it came up.
And there are a whole bunch of people who are going to be over there.
And they have on their little promotion thing, they have Living the Field Conference 2004, a once-in-a-lifetime chance to see the icons of consciousness research in the world.
Every now and then, Ramona hits me with a real zinger, and she sure did this time.
And it was sort of mixed up with something I said about the volcano.
In a moment.
Are you Did you know that in the last rather minor eruption of Mount St. Helens, a lot of the seismographic equipment, sensors and such at the top got blown to smithereens?
so they're now gone.
And staying with that theme for a second, my wife said during the break, you know, what if you were monitoring all the redwoods all the way around Mount St. Helens?
I wonder if the redwoods, number one, would act like a seismograph, and number two, if the trees, for example, might understand which side of the mountain was going to blow out.
This is really a good thought because my aim is just to be able to electrode one of those redwoods.
But once we worked out the technology and we had it telemetered back to a central location, and we had different trees located at various locations, I think that could turn out to be very interesting.
Because, you know, those trees, some of them are, what, hundreds and hundreds of years old.
Well, let's ask Cleve, do you believe that the trees, if you had an arrangement, I mean, I'm asking you to guess now, to hypothesize, but that you would be able to, in the end, find out that you had detected from the trees an understanding of which side was about to blow?
And I don't mean the average person, but somebody with some test instruments, you know, voltometers and scopes or whatever they might have lying around.
And strangely enough, when I graduated from the galvanic skin response testing of plants to what the Russians did right away in replicating my work, they went right to EEG type equipment.
Now, the difference between this, one is supposed to measure resistance, and the EEG equipment does a high degree of magnification of very subtle signals that come out of the, in this case, the plant.
And, you know, the Scientology people that have the so-called E-meter.
I challenge a little bit the basic concept of resistance because if you had a meter and you were trying to figure out the resistance in the circuit, you wouldn't want any other sources of electricity in the pathway other than what you're sending through.
And yet when you're measuring plants or even humans, why there are thousands of sources of electricity, every cell has the capability of discharging electricity.
So I think that the GSR probably is accidentally picking up the cellular discharge.
And when that is added to whatever is being placed through, the signal you're placing through ordinarily to measure resistance, it only appears that there's a drop in resistance.
But it really could be also that it's picking up electrical charge on the way.
When you look in the primary perception book, you'll see some samples of when I first hooked up eggs, there's all kinds of cyclic activity going on inside the egg, aside from the primary perception capability.
Well, you know, my experience has been when somehow you're sort of threatening the well-being, in this case of the egg, if you think in terms, as you do it, if you think, well, I'm going to break this egg, I think the egg goes into a protective stance.
It's very similar to a state of shock.
But when you do it without thinking and without any pre-imaging of what you're going to do, then it never knows what's coming.
You know, one of the experiments that I did, in fact, I even have pictures of the charts in the book, is one time I had forgotten to eat dinner the night before, and it was too early to go out in Times Square.
And so I had all of these eggs on hand that I was doing research with, and I thought, I'm not going to starve to death with all these eggs.
So I said, but I've got to do a scientific experiment as part of it.
So one of the eggs was electroded to the recording equipment.
And the egg was placed in a lead-shielded box and so forth.
I took all the precautions.
That was egg number one.
Now, egg number two and three, I dropped into a pan of boiling water on a hot plate in the lab.
And you can see that when I dropped those two eggs in about three seconds apart, you can see the large reactions on the chart that was being made at the time from the other egg that was not being in any way directly disturbed.
So I think that degree of insensitivity is, you know, under the bacteria section in the book, I have an example of bacteria communicating with another kind of bacteria.
And this was done at my first lab location here in San Diego.
It involved a long one-story wooden building.
And in order not to have to keep running up to the front of the building where I had the chart recording equipment, I put pip switches down, one in each room, all the way down the length of this complex of rooms.
And what I would do is push the switch when I was doing various things, and that would automatically mark the chart up in the front of the web.
And when I did this, and then I started to transfer the information about what was going on when I hit the switch, I found some amazing things.
I had a Siamese cat at the time that got hooked on chicken and wouldn't eat anything else.
At least the cat had convinced me that it wouldn't eat anything else.
So my partner's wife would roast the chicken and send in the chicken with my partner in the polygraph school.
And I'd pull off a little of this roasted chicken each day to feed the cat, and I would put it under a heating lamp.
And in this particular occasion, when I disturbed the, after the chicken carcass got pretty old after being in the refrigerator a number of days, pulling off some of the chicken each day, there was a bacterial buildup on the chicken, and I was disturbing this bacteria when I pulled chunks of it off, and the yogurt that was being tested, another kind of bacteria up in the front room, was showing this very, very dramatically.
And the charts on that are in the book.
And then you will see that when I put the, after I got done disturbing the bacteria on the surface of this chicken, I put it under the heating lamp, and then there was another big surge of reactivity that showed up on the yogurt at the other end of the lab.
Well, it means that, for instance, plants are very much attuned to all kinds of things, all kinds of life forms in the immediate environment.
One time I went up to Yale to give a talk.
The linguistics department had invited me up to talk on the research.
And I took a polygraph up with me.
And after my talk, I had some of the graduate students come up to the second floor of this building where they built the guest instructors.
And I let them hook up a leaf and bounce it in on the polygraph on the galvanic skin response.
And there, they didn't have a plant available.
The buildings are covered with the leaves of ivy.
The Ivy Institution gets its name that way.
So they plucked the leaf, brought it in, bounced it in on the polygraph.
And then I said, well, do you have any insects where we can try to show some interaction between the insect and the plant?
Because I've noticed that so often in my lab.
They said, well, technically it's not an insect, but we have loads of spiders here in New Haven.
So they went to the corner, up in the corner of one of the rooms and got this spider.
They put the spider on the table.
And when they surrounded the spider with their hands and didn't allow it to escape, when they took their hands away and the spider made up its mind to make a run for it, there was a huge reaction on the plant just prior to the spider taking off.
And they did that several times in a row.
Then one of them said, well, let's let the spider go down this carpeted staircase going down to the first floor, and then we'll send another student down to see if they can find it in this darkened hallway.
And you talk about an interesting exercise for these graduate students at a prestigious university like Yale.
One of them is going down saying, I don't see it yet.
And the other one is, well, the line up here is pretty straight on the leaf.
And then the person says, don't see it yet.
And well, I'm getting a little reaction up here.
And then, oh, I see it.
When the person found the spider, there's a huge reaction on the polygraph up at the top of the stairs.
Jason in Chandler, North Carolina, writes in an email, he said before the show.
He says, for instance, when insects chew a tomato plant's leaves, genetic signals, he says, are triggered that tell the plant to release chemicals such as methyl jasminate.
Now, I wonder if that's true across the board, and could that be what's being measured in that case?
In other words, there is a reaction, a chemical reaction that's being used.
But here you have something that's really disturbing.
For instance, if you had, let's say, that leaf electrode at the very time that this was going on, there would be an alternate explanation of why you may be getting disturbances.
But, you know, there's some several years back, there was a good bit of publicity about groves of trees, where if the groves of trees at one location got the blight, the grove of trees over the hills someplace put up their defense mechanisms against that blight even before it got there.
And, of course, they were so sure it had to be some kind of a chemical messenger that caused this, and they never could identify it, but it's very easily explainable by the primary perception idea.
So you're saying this has been noticed then totally independently of the work you do in, for example, fields where you just said there's a notification that goes on.
Yes, I mean they may not have the same explanation.
In fact, they may be still looking for explanations that could be easily They're looking for more of a conventional kind of signal.
And as I understand it, the only way they were trying to, they were at least planning to try to get to the bottom of this is to have two enclosed chambers and have something in one chamber that would be equivalent to administering the blight to some plants and then have a closed closed connection over to the other chamber with filters on it to try to filter out what this chemical messenger would be.
And I never heard any of the results of that, so I don't think they had any success.
No, I think because it doesn't see it coming is when you're going to get the reaction.
Oh.
In other words, but where it somehow has a notification through your imagery of what you're going to do, then it goes into this defensive stance that's very similar to feigning.
It takes about 20, maybe 20 minutes for it to come back.
You know, after I did that initial observation of the egg that I mentioned where I dropped the eggs for breakfast into the boiling water while I was testing one, I thought, golly, this should be a good repeatable experiment.
So I spent about, I think, two weeks at least making some automation equipment.
I had an old turntable off of a phonograph, and it still was on this roller-bearing idea.
It would rotate very easily.
And then I put some corn plasters on it so the eggs wouldn't roll off, and I could get about 10 eggs all the way around this thing.
And then I had it worked out.
This is before I, you know, you can do it easily with computers now, but at six, seven, and eight minute intervals, the turntable would turn.
A little mechanical boot would kick the egg down a trough, trip a switch, and go into a deep fry of boiling water.
And I thought, wow, I should be able to get lots of repeatable data.
You know, I got 10 eggs that you're going to be doing this.
So I put time delay switches on it, and I did everything where I could leave the lab.
And the interesting part is when I came back, I would have, when the first egg went down the chute, I would have a large reaction.
And then all the other eggs just flatlined.
In other words, they were talking to each other.
The chip went down, that was it.
The signal went out.
So I had about 10 hard-boiled eggs, but one reaction when the first egg went down.
So then the kindest thing one can do for an egg is to tell it what's coming, give it a chance to pass out, and then get its little head cracked, right?
Well, you see, I'm not sure how I'm coming away from this myself.
Clean Baxter is my guest.
I'm Mark Bell.
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I know that when my parents, when I lived back in New Jersey, they gave me money to take a train from New Jersey down to Texas, Texas University.
I'd been watching too many Westerns, I think.
When I went down to New York, they had a little train that went from the middle of northern New Jersey to Hoboken, and then you took a ferry across to one of the big train stations.
And I thought, well, this isn't going to be any fun.
So I took the train money, and I went up in the Bronx, and I put a down payment on a motorcycle, which I'd never been on in my life.
And they taught me how to run the thing on one of their training three-wheelers.
Then they put me on the two-wheeler after they took my money for the down payment, pushed me out over Pulaski Skyway.
And by the time I got down to Texas, I really knew how to ride a motorcycle.
My parents didn't know about that for several years.
If not him, one of the astronauts in the time of the early orbiting experiments that were going on, one of them wrote a book about all of this kind of thing.
The information I was aware of is I think he was using the Ryan Zen card, Zenner cards or something, with the waves and the squares and doing some experiments when he was on his space trip with somebody on Earth.
I hadn't heard about the cells stuff, so that fascinates me.
The first one is, do you think that mole, household mole, in any way has the same type of communication and feelings and perhaps even a sinister one in ganging up on people?
Well, mold should you should be able to test mold.
In other words, if you put a collection of it in a test tube, I feel very certain you're going to get meaningful signals.
Because We get that from yeast, we get it from bacteria from an aquarium just by taking a sample of the gravel in the bottom of an aquarium, which has lots and lots of bacteria on it, putting electrodes in that test tube of gravel, we can get reactions.
We pipe it into the EG of events going on inside the aquarium, one test chasing another and so forth.
So I would suspect very strongly that mold would be very reactive.
unidentified
It seems the most sinister of everything that would drive somebody out of a house and make them sick on the way out.
The other question was, if you're out there having to cut your hedges and trimming trees and stuff like that, is there an equivalence of saying grace before you have to take an office?
I'm told by people that have looked into this that as long as you envision that you're doing this for the good of the lawn, the overall good, there's not a problem.
In other words, it's understandable, apparently, that the trimming of the hedge and the lawn, et cetera, is for the overall good.
You know, it's interesting that the years that I've been doing this research, I have scientists come up all the time and say, you know, the work you did back in the 60s and early 70s back in New York really changed their lives.
And of course, it isn't automatic that they're going to feel that they can travel with this information because it could hurt them.
In other words, on grant requests and so forth, if they sound like they're a little too far out, how it affected them personally are the stories that I get from it.
People have told me that they have bad experiences because when they go traveling abroad and something of that nature or gone for any length of time, that they have people come in to water their plants.
And they give them plenty of good care, but the plants don't do well.
And when they come back, they find them in pretty bad shape, even though the care has been okay.
And I said, well, all you need to do is take photographs of those plants with you, and then wherever you are, just look at those photographs several times a day and give positive thought toward them.
And you're going to find that the plants, you're tuned right into them, and they're going to do much better.
It's just unhandy information for some scientific disciplines, and they're a little slow to pick up on it.
And yet there's so much more they could do, how they could expand their research if they would just grasp on this concept of the bio communication, as far as biology is concerned.
You know, there's a field, and I have a book on their research, and they call themselves, well, it's electrophysiology.
Now, the electrophysiologists are ones that are hooking up instrumentation for all kinds of conventional reasons to life forms.
Now, they have to be sweeping so much stuff under the rug, you know, because there's no way they could be missing this with the instrumentation they're using.
They certainly don't bring it up, but it just makes me think that, you know, they're using EEG equipment for the conventional brain waves and all kinds of things.
Do you possibly think this might be some type of evidence or could lead to some type of evidence to the concept of omnipresent intelligence within the universe that's operating outside of the time-space continuum and being segregated within it?
Well, in a way, you're talking about a universal intelligence, and you're probably talking about something that goes far beyond this planet which we're all wrapped up in, but this could be just one minor place, the funny farmer of the universe or something.
We don't know where God's hanging out.
This concept of omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence, the three characteristics that are attributes of God have to involve biocommunication.
So I think it ties very much into some kind of, when you think beyond this planet, I think you're probably right that there's a universal kind of intelligence.
And I just wanted to give a little statement and see what you guys might think about it.
What I wanted to say was that, you know, aside of all the research and everything, I'm a Christian person, so I believe in God.
And I just want to say that, you know, I've always believed that everything on the planet, all of us, are all connected, you know, and though an egg might not think like a human does or whatever, that we all are connected in some way or another.
So therefore, you would have reactions, you know, to each living thing, you know, from another living thing.
I guess we're talking about a universal on the back of the book you have in front of you, you'll see an expansion of Gene Houston and Deepak Chopra where they talk about that great thing.
It goes from the very beginning and it builds systematically on how, first what made me weird enough to spot this as far as my background is concerned, and then it goes progressively every step of the way, how one thing led to another.
And it lists the, there is reproduced in the book authentic copies of all the charts concerned, the important charts, the EEG readings and so forth.
I have a nonprofit research foundation, which I've had since 1965, in fact, where any donations are tax-exempt, but I need to get a significant amount where I can have some kind of a center because all of the material and the charts and the files and the videotapes and so forth, I'm not sure what will happen to them if something happens to me because there is no plan.
Well, it would have to be someone that would be interested enough that had an active research facility or something of that nature where you could be sure that all the material you gave to them would be safely stored.
Well, if the college people could really get involved to the point where they would want to do that, it would be a kind of library, a science library type situation.
So I'm open to suggestions about that because I'm starting to think along the lines of wanting to preserve the material that's been accumulated over the years.
Well, I'll tell you, I was raised, again, in northern New Jersey, and my father was the superintendent of a Presbyterian Sunday school for 30 years.
And I had to go to Sunday school and church every Sunday to get that wreath and whatever those little dangling bars are to tell how many years you've done that.
And I got, I think, up to 14 years in that before I went away to school.
And I thought to myself, well, gee whiz, you know, let me take 14 years off to see if it makes any difference.
Because I was attributing many of the things that I'd learned during those early years just to the power of suggestion.
And then I got associated with someone on a trip I made to the West Coast that was very interested.
He was from a theosophical family.
And the theosophical people are sort of an interface between Eastern philosophy and the West.
And we just talked around the clock and combined my rather extensive experience with hypnosis with his concept of the teachings of theosophy.
And then when I got to the plant stuff, I thought, well, gee, the scientific community, the first thing I did is I called in scientists from different disciplines to see if they could identify what was going on.
And when they couldn't, I said, wow, if they've missed this, they could be very wrong about the rest of it, too.
Actually, your opportunity to question a legend, Cleve Baxter.
He's the guy who's done all this research, culminating now in his book, Primary Perception.
Biocommunication with Plants, Living Foods, and Human Cells.
i can imagine you wouldn't have a question about all this the Jason from Chandler, North Carolina also wrote, he's fellow sent me in the email.
In addition to feeling stimuli, plants can also see other plants.
Most plants see red and blue light as well as far red light, which is a part of the spectrum humans can't see because the plants reflect green light and absorb red and blue light.
They know they have fewer neighbors when there are fewer red and blue wavelengths in the area.
This is why plants grow away from each other, he says.
They avoid competition.
Cleve, do you think that is true that they see in a way?
Well, I'm not fully acquainted with that concept, but I think this is a situation where we're using one of the recognizable senses to try to explain how plants do indeed stay away from each other.
To me, the primary perception communication would probably be, for me, an easier one to understand than the color of the light.
I know there are some articles that come out recently about how roots will stay away from each other, the root structure underground.
As they approach each other, they can see where the roots will steer clear by using something like they use for ants, where they have two plates of glass.
You know, there's another point that I failed to mention, maybe some others too, but how I first discovered the plants were so attuned to human cells, the death of human cells.
Back in New York City, the laboratory that I was located in was on the fifth floor of this building.
And Every other floor of the building, there was a restroom.
And the men's restroom happened to be right on the other side of the wall from the lab.
And ordinarily, I did most of my stuff at night, but there would be people who wanted to come by during the daytime.
I just wondered if he'd read the Celestine prophecy and some of the research, I'm not sure whether it was fiction, fact-based, based on fiction or the reverse, of where they'd have people sitting in the garden on each corner of a garden and concentrating on the plants and vegetable gardens and such, and they grew faster and more nutritious.
And then another question was, they did some research, I'm not sure where I read it years ago, where food was cooked with, like you say, as you're thinking about it, with nutrition for the family or love or whatever.
I'm not sure how they measured the nutrition, but it was of a much higher value than food cooked just with no personal involvement kind of thing.
Well, it's my understanding of the latter point that when a plant is in somewhat of a shock and unprepared for the things that are going to happen, that there are some excretions that are involved that could alter the taste and perhaps the nutrition of the food concerned.
Well, I hadn't heard of it in conjunction with that particular publication, but if they were to periodically do it and not do it constantly, that would be sufficient.
Because, you know, I think that people, especially people that are psychic, I think when they're capable of handling the material and the information they learn is when they become back into the loop again.
Is this kind of a short-term memory that they would forget later on?
Or is it more of a long-term memory where maybe their molecular structure, their cells, have been altered to always remember for the remainder of their life?
I'll tell you, what we did as a precaution, though, when I did my initial Brian Shrimp experiment with the plants, is we had to keep bringing in new sets of plants because the plant would remember that nothing did occur when that signal came from the death of the Brian Shrimp.
This is why we really need to get people involved that would really pursue something like that once they understood that this is a vehicle that could be very valuable for research.
And second of all, I wanted to ask Cleve, I wasn't able to hear the first part of the show, so I don't know if you covered this already, but can the plants tell you how or what they want, and if so, how?
Well, now, I would imagine that you could develop a system that would enable the plants to do that.
In other words, if you were to make a continuous recording or even a spot check recording of the plants and had worked out the signals with them as to what they would show.
I've had psychics come in my lab back in New York.
Yeah, psychics, and they've worked out a system where two spikes would mean one thing and one spike would mean another.
And they were actually able to create some kind of communication with the plants.
unidentified
That's pretty darn interesting.
I mean, I wouldn't think that, you know, psychics would fit into that.
I guess everybody's into everything these days.
Yes, that's true.
But I mean, as far as like, say they're thirsty, I mean, is there anything, I mean, besides their leaves wilting or something like that, or if they need more copper or whatever?
That hasn't been, I've not known, I don't know of any system that has been done or any research project has been done on that that I would suspect that it would be possible to do that where you're letting the plants tell you whether they like one kind of fertilizer better than another things of that nature do you have any suggestions on that the only suggestions I have is somebody that's into the botanical work that once they grasp on the idea that there is a lot that could be explored with this with this capability that I'm talking about it
seems to me a large agricultural company for example Cleve would have should have an enormous interest in what you're doing I mean it it might be a way to grow yet even we're always doing that in the U.S. trying to figure out how to grow larger healthier crops right yeah so this is big money we're talking about here so you'd think they'd take a little money and look at what you're saying well you know at one time there was a field called radionics where something such
as this was it was attempted where certain frequencies were worked out to where these radionics people would put even a picture of a field in a special device they had and work out a frequency then try to improve the health of the field just by radionics.
Well, there was some government interest in it way back.
I talked to a general that was in charge of that, but it was so out of line with the conventional body of knowledge that I think that it got stigmatized and probably dropped.
I mentioned briefly something about blood, but the sperm, it's just an oversight.
It's not that I'm afraid to talk about it.
But when I was interested in seeing if this capability went down to the human cell level, that was one of the first things that was tried, was a sperm sample with electrodes put in it.
And then the donor, who has grown too old to get repeatability on this experiment any longer, would crush an amyl nitrite campsule.
And this is used for dilation of blood vessels for people that have blood pressure problems and so forth, where they don't have the stroke.
But when they inhale the fumes at a distance, the sperm sample, so it's used reaction.
And I wish you would tune into our website, primaryperception.com, because we have people that are asking us every day questions of where they can get a hold of some equipment that will do, it will make a tracing.
And the idea of the accessibility of inexpensive EEG just hasn't been a solution so far.
unidentified
What I will do is email you if you take Mel with the name Dan into your know that I'm emailing you.
You know, I have an experience back in New York where this botanist visited me when she was coming through New York, wanted to see how it electrode the plants.
And I had tried out the philodendron, which I used for a lot of my early research.
And every one of these leaves were reactive, different plants that I attached before she arrived.
When she arrived, these plants all flatlined.
They wouldn't show a single thing.
And I asked her, I said, do you do anything that harms the plants you work with?
It seemed like there would be some kind of field because just the idea that they could biologically communicate with each other, I don't think would allow for that rhythm and that synchronization of flight and so forth.