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July 10, 2004 - Art Bell

02:51:14

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Daniel Pinchbeck - Psychedelic Drugs

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	Music.
	From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good
	morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world's 25 time zones.
	That's right, 25, all covered like a great big quilted blanket by Coast to Coast AM.
	This program, it is my honor and pleasure to be with you for the weekend.
	The weekend is mine.
	How y'all doin'?
	It's been a great week for me.
	I've spent it, uh, mainly updating, uh, actually two new computers, which I had to load completely, then update all my other computers, and oh, my.
	I'm so glad to be done with all of that.
	Anyway, let's take a look at what's going on in the world.
	Well, look at this.
	Nothing but good news.
	Huh.
	Not.
	The Philippines confirmed Saturday that it would withdraw its small peacekeeping contingent from Iraq August 20th, as planned, but unclear if the announcement may have saved the life of a Filipino hostage who's being held in Iraq.
	His family's been pleading for his release.
	Government officials said that truck driver Angelo de la Cruz had been released, but the Arab television Al Jazeera said no, no, no.
	So we don't know.
	Democratic presidential candidate Kerry says his selection of John Edwards as his running mate seems to have injected energy into the campaign.
	Still, he recognizes the dangers of being swept up by the excitement of the moment and possibly growing complacent.
	We're going to campaign intensely, he says.
	There's not going to be any let up.
	I'm confident that the enthusiasm we're seeing is real.
	President Bush He's right about this one.
	The only way that gay marriage in America is going to be made illegal is with a change in the Constitution.
	Because otherwise, if you look at it carefully, it is constitutional.
	Something I told you a long time ago.
	So the President is doing The right constitutional thing, but I think the wrong thing.
	I just don't see the harm in it.
	Nevertheless, the president, in a move that nobody thinks is going to go through anyway, is going to try and get a constitutional amendment saying marriage may only be between a man and a woman.
	It's probably not going to happen, but, you know, he's got to fight for the right.
	That would be the political right.
	Relatives, this is a very weird story.
	Relatives of a Marine who surfaced in Beirut nearly three weeks after an apparent kidnapping in Iraq.
	You remember they were going to be or they said they beheaded him actually.
	These relatives are appealing for understanding from fellow Arabs saying Lebanese-born man immigrated and joined the Marines for financial reasons.
	Corporal Wasif Ali Hassoun was doing well recovering at a U.S.
	military hospital in Germany after being flown out of Lebanon on Friday.
	So, nobody really knows exactly what happened here, did he?
	Did he?
	Well, they just don't know.
	Strange he would turn up in Lebanon.
	Now that a Senate committee has concluded the CIA falsely claimed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, expect more caution on Capitol Hill The next time a president seeks approval for preemptive military action, but don't expect America to strike only after an attack.
	Even the harshest critics of the Bush administration's policy of preemption say the U.S.
	must act in the face of a clear threat.
	Oh, by the way, I wonder if any of you can confirm this for me.
	I'll be watching for it.
	A friend of mine told me there's going to be a 3.01 a.m.
	Pacific Time launch from Vandenberg, a pretty big rocket going into orbit and taking a satellite into orbit, and so I don't know it for sure, but I'm certainly going to wander out onto the porch at about 3.01 and see if I can see something ascending into the heavens.
	Does anybody know if that schedule is on?
	If so, I'll let the audience know. 3.01 A.M.
	Pacific Time from Vandenberg, or if that is now changed, I'd be certainly very, very interested.
	and so many of you have the schedule or know what's going to happen just give me
	a quick fast blast and we'll take it from there
	curtis uh... of elbasta california says me and my wife got a chance finally see
	movie day after tomorrow We thought it was excellent.
	Hope to see more to come.
	Curtis and Patricia, thanks.
	Well, the Day After Tomorrow is doing very well indeed.
	In fact, worldwide it is now, already has topped the 500 million dollar mark.
	That's incredible.
	Absolutely incredible.
	DVD sale, well it's still in theaters, and then DVD sales will come.
	Actually, it's, believe it or not, the day after tomorrow now is, I think like number 35 or 34, or something like that, worldwide.
	All time movies, of all time gross, what they have is some list of the grossest movie makes, you know, worldwide.
	All time movies.
	I mean, for all of moviedom, all of time, period, over 500 million dollars and number 35 or something like that, all time.
	That's incredible.
	Absolutely incredible.
	So there is a lot of weather-related news.
	That's probably one reason why an awful lot of people want to see it, because people know.
	Inside, they know the change is going on.
	Dr. Reese Halter, The President of Global Forest Science says that prolonged drought conditions have created a once in a 400 year fire threat for British Columbia's coastal forests.
	Expect a lot of this stuff, folks.
	He says the last time this province was this dry was more than four centuries ago with disastrous results.
	It cooperates with the long drought in the 1580s when we had coastal forests ablaze, he said.
	He warns the evidence shows wildfires of 2003 could be just a warm-up for worse things to come.
	All the evidence goes to show that it could be as bad and the shift may go from the interior to the coast, he said.
	Walter also warns the mountain pine beetle infestation in north central B.C.
	has created vast areas of tinder-dry forest, compounding the potential risk.
	At some critical point, the stars, as it were, all are going to line up and there's going to be a really big fire in British Columbia.
	And I've got some friends that I talk to on Ham Radio in B.C.
	And, you know, there are times when their temperatures exceed ours down here in the desert.
	Bear in mind, I'm about 25 miles from Death Valley, and they named it that for a reason.
	Look around the rest of the world.
	The Guardian, the first sign that anything was amiss, came just after about 11.30 a.m.
	This is a Thursday, July 8 story in the Guardian.
	The skies got dark.
	The temperature plummeted, and the first raindrops began to fall on the fishing villages along the Devon coast.
	Within an hour, winds were up to 60 miles an hour, and by late afternoon, the storm had swept across southern England and hit London.
	It had happened.
	If it had happened, for example, in October or November, why, nobody would have batted an eyelid, but not this time of year.
	Falling trees with their summer canopies of leaves catching the full force of the wind brought down power lines left more than 13,000 homes without electricity across Kent, Sussex and Surrey.
	While they predicted fallen temperatures led British Gas to put its Winter Emergency Contingency Plan into operation as it prepared for a surge in demand with people switching on their central heating.
	There is central heating in July, folks, in England.
	I'm telling you, I'm telling you, look for a lot more of this.
	There are now more sunspots than there have been in the last 1,000 years.
	This could be a cause of global warming.
	Also vast areas of cold water have suddenly appeared in the North Pacific and the North Atlantic, meaning we could be on our way to a super storm.
	This is coming from Whitley Strieber's Unknown Country.
	Oceanographers are racing to study the unexpected event.
	It is possible that this is happening because the great oscillation that moves ocean water from the north to the south is weakening And getting smaller.
	This new abnormality suggests that the situation is getting worse, much worse, much more quickly than anybody anticipated.
	Should it persist, it will result in a very early autumn in the Northern Hemisphere, which will be accompanied by very violent weather.
	But, would it or could it trigger a really big storm, like portrayed in Superstorm and The Day After Tomorrow?
	Unless tropical air penetrates deep into the Arctic in August, should air temperatures at quick-watch high Arctic monitoring points soar to above 85 degrees Fahrenheit in August or September, and the conditions now present in the Northern Ocean persist, the extreme weather could indeed result.
	David Whitehouse writes in the BBC News that Swiss researcher Sami Slonky used ice cores from Greenland to compare today's sunspot activity with that of the past.
	It seems over the last century, as the Earth's climate has become warmer, the number of sunspots has increased.
	Now, this trend is being made worse by greenhouse gases, but they are not the only cause of global warming.
	Sunspots have been monitored since, did you know this, 1610.
	Shortly after the invention of the telescope, they began counting.
	The sun usually has an 11-year cycle of activity, but this isn't always regular.
	Between about 1645 and 1715, there were fewer sunspots than usual on the sun's surface.
	At that time, the Earth experienced a long period of cold weather known as the Little Ice Age.
	Looking at sunspot activity during the past 15, or make that 1150 years, the Lanky has found that the Sun has never been as active as it has during the past 60 years.
	That's interesting.
	The Sun has never been as active as it has during the past 60 years.
	However, during the past 20 years the number of sunspots has remained about the same, yet the average temperature of the Earth Has continued to rise.
	This, if you want to believe that, could be due to fossil fuel burning or not.
	Who knows?
	The fact of the matter is, though, the climate is clearly changing.
	And I'll say it for the millionth time.
	There's not much we can do to affect it, even if it's fossil fuels, frankly.
	It's already underway, and what we should do is be prepared.
	We should begin to anticipate the areas that will no longer grow what they now grow, and look for areas where we would plant what we're going to continue to need.
	Had Shakespeare been a solar physicist, he may have written, Hell hath no fury like the sun, although The sun provides the means for life here on Earth.
	It does have dark sides.
	The sun regularly sends massive solar explosions of radioactive plasma with the intensity of a billion megaton bombs.
	A billion megaton bombs hurling through the solar system.
	And perhaps even more astounding, scientists now have the ability to track that energy billions of miles away, thanks to an armada of explorers, including Mars Odyssey, Ulysses, Cassini, and the Voyagers, not to mention solar and earth orbiting craft.
	It was with this unprecedented scientific fleet that scientists observed the events that took place late October and November.
	Do you all remember when the Sun unleashed The most powerful solar flares ever detected in the history of looking at these things.
	I mean, there was a blast.
	Thank God it was not directed at Earth.
	But, you know, had it been, there would have been a real collapse.
	Even as it was, a sort of timeline emerged, tracking the largest of the related coronal
	mass ejections from the Sun all the way to Voyager, expected to receive the shock blast
	sometime this month.
	They will get it, by the way.
	Then on to the helipause, which delineates our solar system from interstellar space,
	the force of the blast is expected to extend that region by as much as 400 million miles.
	All told, about 17 major flares erupted on the Sun during those two weeks.
	Boy, they were some rough ones.
	The result of energy building up in the sun's magnetic field lines until they become strained enough to suddenly snap, like an overstretched rubber band, the related CME or coronal mass ejection, were the largest explosions in the solar system.
	Capable of launching up to 10 billion tons of electrified gas into space, normally at speeds of 1 to 2 million miles an hour.
	While we're protected, of course, by Earth's magnetosphere and the atmosphere, power grids, radio and GPS signals, satellites and astronauts in space are, indeed, vulnerable.
	Unfortunately, effects on Earth from these events were minimal.
	In effect, a testament to the fleet of monitors that issued warnings as early as October 21st.
	Most Earth-orbiting spacecraft were put into safe mode to protect them from the massive onslaught of radiation.
	Power grids were safe, with the exception of a blackout in Sweden.
	Airplanes were rerouted to a more southern route to move them away from the increased radiation at the pole.
	At Mars, the MARIE instrument on the Mars Odyssey spacecraft was not as lucky.
	Ironically, its task was to better understand solar radiation on Mars.
	It understands quite a bit now.
	It was able to make observations up until a powerful October 28th CME overheated a power converter and it no longer works.
	The Hubble Space Telescope may have discovered as many as 100 new planets orbiting stars in our own galaxy.
	Hubble's harvest comes from a sweep of thousands of stars in the dome-like bulge of the Milky Way.
	It confirms it were almost double the number of planets known to be circling other stars to about 230.
	The discovery is going to lend support to the idea that almost every sun-like star in our galaxy, and probably the universe, is accompanied by planets.
	They're out there!
	Stephen Beckwith, Director of the Space Telescope Science Institute, told BBC News Online, quote, I think this work has the potential to be the most significant advance in discovering extrasolar planetary systems since the first planets, were discovered in the mid 1990s."
	So, what we've got here is indeed interesting, and it provokes a question.
	If, in fact, most of the stars we see, and even with the naked eye on a good dark night, why you can see more than you can count, thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions, I don't know, You can detect from where I live on a good night, a dark night, the Milky Way from one end to the other, from one horizon to the other.
	It is incredible.
	Now, what they're telling us is most, if not all, of those stars have planets surrounding them.
	That would mean that life, if life is even, I don't know, fairly common, should be everywhere.
	out there.
	There should be planets crawling with life.
	I mean if you've got uncountable stars, and then multiply that by uncountable numbers of planets, and a very great deal of time that has passed, there should be almost uncountable numbers of civilizations out there with life.
	But if they're there, where are they?
	We haven't heard a peep.
	Not one thing.
	I wonder if any of you have thoughts on that.
	Even those at SETI, Dr. Shostak and others, are saying publicly now that, you know, if X number of years go by and we don't get some sort of detection of life at some point, SETI is going to have to say something.
	Well, you know, we've looked at some percentage of what there is to look at and we haven't found Anything.
	Nothing.
	Now, I understand that the years when any emerging life might have radio and television and be emitting radio frequency would be, in the larger scheme of things, perhaps very narrow.
	But even so, just the numbers alone of civilizations that ought to be out there should be staggering, and there's just not a peep.
	SETI listens, and of course we have sightings.
	You can say, well, Art, you know, there's sightings and there's people that have been snatched up and all the rest of that, and surely there does seem to be something to that, but it's not ironclad.
	Nothing is yet ironclad.
	We have no message, no No clear, unambiguous contact to the point where everybody agrees, yes, we've been contacted, yes, there is life out there.
	Nothing yet.
	And to me, that's incredible.
	All those stars.
	The Hubble discovering planet after planet to the point where they're now saying, well, planets are common around stars, and life should be at least reasonably common.
	If they're out there, where the hell are they?
	Anyway, we're going to do open lines coming up in this next half hour, and at the top of the next hour, we're going to be talking about psychedelics, mind drugs.
	Daniel Pinchbeck is going to be my guest.
	It's going to be a wild night, so I suggest you buckle in and get ready for the ride.
	from the high deserts, I'm Art Feld.
	Well I think it's time to get ready to realize just what I have found.
	I have been holding hell upon my hands.
	It's all clear to me now.
	My heart is on fire.
	And all your sorrow is a few...
	It don't come easy.
	You know it don't come easy.
	It don't come easy.
	You know it don't come easy.
	Got to pay your dues if you want to see the blues.
	And you know it don't come easy.
	You don't have to shout or leap the vows.
	You can even play them easy.
	Forget about the past and all your sorrow.
	The future won't last.
	It will soon be all tomorrow.
	I don't ask for much. I only want the trust.
	And you know it don't come easy.
	Wanna take a ride?
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from east to the Rockies, call toll free 800-825-5033.
	line is area code 775-727-1222. To talk with Art Bell from east to the Rockies, call toll-free
	800-825-5033. From west to the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country Sprint Access number,
	pressing Option 5, and dialing toll-free From coast to coast, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Well, Art, I'm getting word here that maybe tonight's launch or tomorrow morning's launch, however you look at it, has been put off or is wrong.
	It says 3-0-1 is coming Tuesday morning.
	According to Dean in Bakersfield, California.
	So we'll keep an eye on that.
	I'm sure we'll get more messages, but I'll try and keep you informed.
	Those are quite spectacular to watch.
	If you're somewhere on the west coast, particularly in the southern part of the US, anything that
	goes up from Vandenberg that big is really something to see.
	Pretty interesting stuff.
	On the front of the Coast2CoastAM.com website right now, there's an article, and you can read the whole thing, it's going to kind of relate to what we're going to talk about tonight.
	Last month, apparently, the Utah Supreme Court ruled that peyote can be used by non-Native Americans for religious purposes.
	So, I guess if, as long as you're saying that you want to have some sort of religious experience, The way I read this, let's read it again to be sure.
	Last month, the Utah Supreme Court ruled that peyote can be used by non-Native Americans for religious purpose.
	Now the entire story is there if you want to read it.
	We're going to be talking to Daniel Pinchback tonight about not just peyote, but a lot of mind-expanding drugs.
	And a lot of people think that's sort of just an artifact of the 60s, and to some degree it is, but But there's a lot going on in the modern world, and it'll be a very, very interesting discussion.
	He's a very bright guy.
	So that coming up in, I don't know, 20 minutes.
	First time caller on the line, you are on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	Hi.
	Interesting story.
	It's been several years ago, but we did some work at Tonopah Auxiliary Airfield, which is, I think it's about 63 miles north, kind of west of Area 51.
	Yes.
	And they were pouring runways, and it was very hot.
	And you can only work during the day on that base, because you sign over all your rights, and you come under their command and their control.
	So you were what?
	Part of a crew that was pouring these... No, we were actually working on the concrete after they got done pouring it.
	Ah, you were one of the smoothers.
	Not as smooth as doing controlled expansion joints.
	Okay, well anyway, so... No, it was so hot and you can't work at night.
	I know, it's hot.
	The next morning we would get on there and it would already be cracking.
	Huh.
	So, they reluctantly let us work at night because they had to tear a bunch of stuff up and it was real expensive.
	And so, what did you get to see?
	Yeah, well, a door opened out of a big hanger and a saucer came out and flew away.
	Oh.
	And I asked the guy, do you think it's something we built or one that we captured?
	And he goes, I don't even want to talk about it.
	I'm just telling you what I saw.
	So this is something he told you or something you personally observed?
	No, it's something he told me.
	He was in charge of the crew.
	He's not into that stuff.
	He's never talked about it.
	He just told me that it was a very weird experience because they saw Lots of things flying there that, you know, the people, the MPs, I guess, would come up and, you know, tell them to lay down or put your head in a trash can or whatever.
	That really is interesting.
	So you couldn't work during the day because of the heat and because of the cracking of the concrete, and that I surely do understand, and so they made you work at night.
	Well, they reluctantly, they had to let us, because if they didn't let us cut at night, it would be cracked by morning.
	Yeah, I've got you.
	That sounds realistic.
	I wish you had seen it yourself, so it was a first-hand report.
	You believe him?
	I absolutely believe him, 100%.
	He said it that one time and he's never mentioned it again, because I think that it scared him.
	All right, all right.
	I very much appreciate the call.
	Well, I do live adjacent to an area here, as you know, where a great deal of development of latest who knows what generation aircraft are being worked on.
	So a lot of things do indeed fly in this area, and we see a lot of things in the night sky here.
	How many can be attributed to our stuff?
	Probably most.
	How many might be their stuff?
	Well, if we have indeed collected from some crash, previous crash, whether it be Roswell or something else, A craft.
	It would make sense.
	We would attempt, certainly, to back-engineer.
	To figure out what made it tick, as it were, and to try and fly it.
	And so, could those be the things we are seeing?
	Yes, could be.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hey, Art.
	How are you doing?
	I'm doing well.
	And, uh, who would you be?
	And where would you be?
	Oh, this would be Steve, and I'm near the Minneapolis area in a small little town called Wayzata.
	Yes, sir.
	Calling you about a show that you're very fond of called Dead Like Me.
	I love that program.
	I love it.
	You do?
	People are telling me the CD or the DVD of the first season is out.
	I haven't seen it yet.
	Is it really?
	That's what I hear.
	God, I want to buy that.
	But you are the cause of me actually getting into this show.
	Well, good.
	And, um, I, Season 2 comes out, the first show is on the 25th.
	Yeah, everybody should know, it's on Showtime, it's called Dead Like Me, and it's really cool.
	Yep.
	It's so different.
	25th is Season 2, Episode 1.
	Yay!
	Well, well, I, and I cannot tell you how, but I saw Season 2, Episode 1 today.
	Uh, how?
	I can't tell you that.
	Yeah, well, I don't give anything away.
	I don't want to be told.
	I'll fast-blast it to you later.
	Well, don't fast-blast me any endings or anything like that.
	No, can I give away a couple of spoilers?
	Little tiny spoilers.
	Very, very small spoilers.
	They're very small, just to make sure that I'm not full of it.
	All right.
	Okay, I'll take that.
	George.
	Georgia.
	Makes out with the guy who is nowhere near as hot as me, and he's an idiot.
	And she gets the promotion.
	Stop right there.
	That's enough.
	Thank you.
	It's a very cool series.
	No question about it.
	It's called Dead Like Me.
	And George is way cool.
	And I don't like TV.
	But I mean, I would volunteer.
	I really would volunteer.
	You know me on TV.
	I avoid it like the plague, but I would volunteer to have me soul snatched by George.
	I really would.
	I mean, there's got to be an occasion one of these seasons where they can kill off a talk show host, right?
	So I'd love to be killed and have my soul taken by George.
	I mean, it's really a cool program.
	So if you haven't seen it up until now, as he suggested, the 25th would be the premiere of the second season on Showtime, and it's very, very East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning.
	This is Frank from Brooklyn.
	Hey.
	And I'm calling... I enjoyed the discourse this evening, and I have a couple comments.
	One, I can remember when Carl Sagan talked about his theoretical postulate that there are billions of stars and then billions and billions of planets and things, but I would assume now, in the last 20 years with the space telescopes, we've been able to chart and at least understand the distribution of light matter to dark matter.
	Well, when Sagan was first saying that, sir, we really didn't have the confirmation of the planet part of his equation.
	Since then, though, we have been getting confirmation of that, and it turns out planets are going to be common.
	So, as I said in my dissertation, life ought to be common.
	Absolutely.
	And another question, you mentioned SETI, and Years ago, I had done some research on the program and also the radio telescopes that were used to, I guess, interpret and to send out radio signals and things and to map, in a sense, parts of the universe.
	What I found interesting was the fact that they only focus on a very small, small area.
	And I would assume that maybe if they shifted their focus many degrees, There would be a lot more interesting information to be had, and probably we'll be doing that in the future.
	Have you ever had to mow a lawn?
	I have, yes.
	Okay, well, when you mow a lawn, you do it methodically.
	I mean, you go up a row, down a row.
	You don't sort of jump over and do it.
	Correct.
	So I'm sure that's what they're doing.
	They're mowing the sky lawn a little bit at a time, and they try not to jump around.
	We have some wonderful chaos algorithms that might help in that with regard to new permutations.
	So I think when that's applied, we make it a very different picture of the universe.
	But listen, thank you very much, Art, and I look forward to your guest tonight.
	Well, all right.
	Thank you very much, and take care.
	I still want to know why we have not heard from them.
	You would imagine there would be many civilizations behind us, perhaps just emerging, crawling up from the lightning-struck mud puddle, and then all the way to what?
	Hi Art, this is Nick from Oak Harbor, and I just wanted to comment about that very subject.
	I'm sure you've heard this before, but I think people need to think about it.
	to the rockies you're on the air hello higher
	i'd like to promote harbor and i just want to comment about that very subject
	i entry for this before but i think people need to think
	about it perhaps we're spending too much time trying to apply our own standards
	and our own uh... technologies to uh... some other civilizations might
	have and so we're looking
	perhaps in the wrong places for the wrong thing well if you could let your
	imagination run wild nick and come up with a new way to look i i i know
	they're switching for example over to uh...
	to light from radio to light
	uh... but how how else would you look I
	I don't know that I have the answer to that, because I'm not one of them, but there must be as many different ways of communicating as there are civilizations, probably, or at least quite a few different ways, and we may not even have a clue, which is why I don't have an answer for that, because maybe we don't even have a clue.
	Well, Nick, if you listen to a lot of people who speak on these subjects, the only thing that appears to go faster than light would seem to be thought.
	Now, that may turn out to be the way that we end up communicating with some other life form, maybe at the speed of thought.
	Which is a great idea.
	Great way to go.
	All right, buddy, thank you.
	Yes, sir.
	And take care, yeah.
	That may be it.
	What is the speed of thought?
	Well, according to what experiments have been done, there appears to be no limit to the speed of thought.
	So maybe that'll be it, and maybe it's already occurring, and maybe the people that are having those communications we presently call missing a card from the deck.
	But maybe, maybe some of them are not missing a card.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
	Hi, Carl Isling, Kenai, Alaska.
	All the way up in Kenai.
	How you doing?
	Oh, really good.
	It's beautiful up here.
	Beautiful blue skies, warm day today, very hot.
	I'm really happy you're having Daniel Pinchbeck on On for an interview tonight, I've been trying to spread the word all over in the Intergen forums around the world.
	Well, thank you.
	I wanted to call when he was on, but I was pretty sure once he gets on, I won't be able to get through.
	But one of the things I wanted to tell you, there is a legal herb called salvia divinorum that has been legal.
	Never been made illegal in this country.
	Never heard of it.
	What is it?
	Well, it's also known by Mexican mint.
	It's a rare strain of salvia plant.
	And it's been touted to be as strong as peyote or some other illegal substances in some places.
	Obviously, Utah, not anymore, according to the state law.
	But if people want to do a search on it, they can go on the web and just put in the word salvia.
	And then Divinorum, which is spelled D-I-V-I-N-O-R-U-M.
	Well, there's a lot of things like that out there.
	I know here in the high desert, sir, there are a lot of things that regularly grow in people's front yards, you know, what you'd think of as weeds or something, and they can be anywhere from substances that will take you on a really wild trip to things that will kill you.
	The trouble is knowing the difference.
	Yeah.
	I don't.
	I'm aware of some of those, but one of the things about this particular plant, it only grows native to Mexico, by the way, in Oaxaca.
	Yes.
	But as far as I know, no one's ever been harmed by it.
	If you take too much, although it does have one problem, it'll make you pass out.
	That's the only real problem with it.
	But if people are really moderate and start out very small, they can usually find a level where it won't do that.
	And I've seen some extraordinary things, as many people have.
	That put peyote and mescaline to shame, in my opinion.
	Really?
	Yeah, and it's completely legal, at least so far.
	Do you know, maybe you can answer this question.
	I mean, I had my ride in the sixties like everybody else did, I suppose, but have mind-altering drugs, what is their status these days?
	I mean, I hear a lot of other drugs, you know, ecstasy and all that kind of baloney going on, but what about psychedelics?
	Are they still Commonly used in the U.S.
	by some sort of subculture or not?
	Yeah.
	I don't know about the illegal ones because I've steered away from them.
	But yes, there are.
	There's plenty of legal ones.
	There's a huge list of legal hallucinogens.
	The most effective, I believe, is the one I'm telling you about, salvia divinorum.
	But there is a large group of people that is growing larger every year on the Internet with small little forums.
	Scattered around the world who are devoted just to this subject.
	And the thing is, if someone wants to look for these groups of people to find out what's going on, they've just got to put in a keyword.
	Entheogen.
	It's spelled E-N-T-H-E-O-G-E-N.
	You really want them to look at this, don't you?
	Well, I've been studying it for a few years, and I'm fascinated by it.
	It's really got my attention as a means to spirituality.
	I don't know that all of these plants, or in the case of some drugs, really will lead to a door to open into that dimension, but it appears for some people, some of them can.
	Well, I'm very interested in that, sir, and I thank you for the call.
	I really am quite interested in that.
	In other words, you'll hear people talk about gateway drugs and the negative side of drugs all the way, all the time, right?
	But I wonder, I wonder if some of these drugs, and you will hear people admit it from time to time, that yes, they can open doors to spiritual experiences that you might not have otherwise.
	That's not to say you can't have them without the drugs, but when honesty prevails, and I've had a lot of guests on, and they will hesitantly, because of the attitude of the U.S.
	government about drugs these days, They'll hesitantly admit that they may open doors of that sort.
	It's a very interesting subject, and tonight we shall explore it no matter what.
	Wildcard Line, you are on the air.
	Hello.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Hi, this is James in Port Arthur, Texas.
	James, you're going to have to yell at me.
	You're not too loud.
	Oh, that's much better.
	I wanted to say, maybe the reason we haven't heard from any of these other civilizations is maybe you've heard of the Chaos Theory.
	I have, yes.
	Billions of random events have to happen in order for us to be here now.
	And maybe those events haven't happened on those other planets, and the one civilizations that do exist are going to be Very, very far behind us, or very, very far ahead of us.
	I just watched a very interesting movie called The Butterfly Effect on DVD, and that was with reference to the chaos theory, you know, the thought that a butterfly flapping its wings, perhaps somewhere in Asia, can cause a typhoon, ultimately.
	That little tiny things, you know, can become very large things.
	Kind of a neat movie, by the way, about time travel.
	But that may be why we haven't heard anything is because they haven't gone the same direction that we have.
	Well, that could easily be true of even you could suggest a fairly large percentage, but surely some percentage of those civilizations would have developed as we have, roughly.
	I think life is rare in the universe.
	I think life is a very rare thing to find.
	You look in our solar system and The conditions have to be just perfect for it to fall right.
	Everything has to fall into place just perfect.
	Well, I think the fact that we haven't contacted anybody would bolster that thought, wouldn't you?
	That's why I say it.
	And thank you very much for having me on.
	You're very welcome.
	Take care.
	And I wonder, I surely would love to establish contact, wouldn't you?
	In my lifetime, I would love to see that occur, because I have this feeling, just this very strong feeling, that there is life out there, be it rare or be it common, and I'm beginning to agree with the last caller, that it is rare, very rare, but it's there, and eventually we'll connect with them, and then we'll find out we're no longer alone.
	Or maybe, maybe contact will come in a flash, in a thought, By a brain talking to another brain.
	Daniel Pinchbeck is coming up in a moment.
	We're going to talk about psychedelic drugs, the state of psychedelic drugs.
	He's got a lot to say and I know a lot of you have been looking forward to this program.
	So it's coming up next from the high desert in the middle of the night.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
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	Can you feel the spirit of the late Terrence McKenna with us this night?
	I can.
	Daniel Pinchbeck has written for the New York Times Magazine, Esquire, The Village Voice, and many other publications.
	He is currently writing a column here and now for Arthur, which is a new magazine following in the tradition of the original Rolling Stone.
	His book Breaking Open The Head chronicles his own investigation of shamanism and psychedelic drugs.
	For the book, he underwent an initiation with a West African tribe in Gabon, visited Indians in the Ecuadorian Amazon, as well as in the mountains of Oaxaca, Mexico.
	He also wrote about the Burning Man Festival.
	His new book, 2012, The Return of plus total
	and properties of shamanic and traditional cultures including the whole
	big classical maya hindu and christian apocalyptic
	traditions he believes that these prophecies are telling us something
	crucial about what's happening in our world today
	they need to be understood properly he argues in the book which is due out by
	the way uh... next summer that the prophecies describe some sort of phase shift or
	perhaps transformation into a new form of human consciousness.
	Well, that would be a jump, wouldn't it?
	Uh, the most significant change, he says, since the development of language.
	so in a moment would depend on music
	provide the right set and setting for what you're about to do daniel pinch
	back hi there daniel welcome back to the program thank you so much for great to be
	back now it's good to have you uh...
	listen you know a lot of the audience uh... i'm sure considers
	what we're about to talk about uh... to be
	an archaic of the 60s, not something that really goes on anymore at all.
	Psychedelic drugs are just sort of that thing that happened, and it's all over with.
	And they think of it as dangerous, and so let's start with that.
	Right.
	Well, I mean, the way I looked at psychedelics in my book was, in breaking open the head, the way I looked in the 60s was that it was kind of like the first stage in a kind of a voyage of shamanic initiation.
	And, you know, it was a very new experience for people at that time.
	I mean, it was really only in the sort of 50s that we discovered the mushrooms in Mexico.
	LSD was discovered in the 1940s, didn't start getting used until the 50s and 60s.
	And it kind of opened this incredible Pandora's box of psychic effects and visions and confusions, and society couldn't really deal with it at the time, so the whole thing was radically shut down, you know.
	I mean, it's pretty tragic.
	I mean, in the early 60s, psychedelics were considered to be, you know, the most fascinating subject for psychology and philosophy.
	I mean, Aldous Huxley and Alan Watts.
	Oh, psychology went berserk with them for a while, didn't it?
	And then in 66, the drugs were made illegal.
	And then by the end of the 60s, mid-70s, I guess, people had really just, I think it was almost like psychic exhaustion, kind of a hangover from the 60s.
	People couldn't really deal with it.
	And, um, you know, as you mentioned in your introduction, sort of, Terrence McKenna then sort of came around and carried the torch after Timothy Leary.
	Oh, yes.
	And, um, you know, came up with some really brilliant ideas and speculations about what these substances are.
	I always thought, you know, I had Terrence on many times.
	He turned in to be a, he was a good friend.
	And Terrence was about, gosh, he was, he was the worst You know, he just absolutely destroyed these anti-drug commercials.
	You know, the brain on drugs and fried brain cells.
	And Terrence was a brilliant, brilliant man.
	And he'd been on more trips than most of us have made to 7-Eleven.
	Right.
	Well, I mean, you know, a lot of the anti-drug, especially the anti-psychedelic kind of propaganda has been just bad science.
	You know, I mean, in the 60s, they sort of had this scary study that said that LSD damaged chromosomes, but it turned out to be completely untrue.
	But that's a hell of a story.
	I mean, that's going to scare you.
	Oh, my God, my chromosomes.
	And recently we've seen the same thing with ecstasy.
	I mean, the government has had to admit that a whole sort of battery of results were actually not ecstasy at all.
	They were methamphetamine that showed kind of brain damage and so on.
	Let's let's for a second talk about the government and its entire attitude toward drugs, Daniel.
	I mean, really, it's it's why the government is anti-drug.
	Why?
	Well, I mean, I think that one reason is that there's a kind of self-propagating bureaucracy.
	You know, I mean, if you look at, like, the history, when there was alcohol prohibition, I guess in the 20s, and when that ended, they had created this huge bureaucracy to deal with alcohol.
	They didn't really know what to do with it.
	And so then they turned to marijuana.
	And then in the 60s, when sort of the hippies and the counterculture and the black radicals became kind of the target for the conservatives, It was very easy to demonize drugs and to kind of use that as a technique of social control.
	You know, and if you think about the prison system now, we have, you know, millions of people passing through the prison system.
	A lot of them are drug-related.
	Well, actually, Daniel, most of them.
	The majority of people are in prison for drugs.
	The greatest percentage are in prison for drugs.
	It's amazing how many are in prison.
	But, you know, I want to go deeper.
	I'm wondering Aside from the fact that, you know, the radicals use the drugs and so they were sort of part of, you know, I don't know, the drive against radicalism in the US.
	There's something more, and I've always thought it had to do with productivity and social versus anti-social behavior, but mostly productivity.
	Boy, the government's very concerned about productivity.
	I think there are two aspects to it.
	I mean, the first aspect is that it's a very convenient means of social control.
	And when you're dealing with kind of, you know, excess minority, poor population, it's a way of kind of warehousing them in the system.
	You know, it's kind of like warehousing excess labor capacity.
	And in the meantime, you create this whole industry, this prison, you know, industrial complex.
	And so that's one side of it.
	And then the other side of it is what it does to those people who actually want to explore Um, consciously, you know, their own mind and kind of try to use psychedelics in a beneficial way.
	And it just makes it very difficult for anybody to, you know, undertake that exploration because it's demonized and illegal.
	And so it puts a lot of fear around it.
	So, you know, and that I think is really like fear of the psyche and also fear of the fact that, um, um, you know, as began to happen in the sixties, uh, open exploration of these areas ...lead to a very different model of society and might actually... Oh, now you've hit it.
	Now you've hit it.
	Stop right there for a second.
	Exploration of these drugs leads to a very different concept of what society perhaps should be or what we should be.
	In other words, people take, when they use these drugs you're suggesting, they take on an entirely different mindset about all that is around them.
	Is that true?
	Yeah, it's definitely true.
	It gives you a different perspective on your own psyche, and on technology, and nature, and the whole kind of process that we're kind of invested in, that we're usually kind of unconscious of.
	Is it a uniform effect?
	It seems to be.
	I mean, it seems to be very much across the board.
	I mean, it's interesting because now, even though psychedelics are illegal, there is a kind of room, a certain kind of university environment for people to go through a tripping phase, or whatever.
	There's sort of a little culture around that, and even when people are just doing it hedonistically, they still often open themselves to all sorts of channels of information and ideas that maybe they have to spend the rest of their lives trying to then suppress.
	Well, that's a fairly serious effect, I would say.
	If it's something that will affect you for the rest of your life, that's a very serious effect indeed.
	And so you think that's The prime reason that our government has this giant war on drugs.
	We have so many people in prison.
	It's a war between the government and the people's... I almost said right to use drugs.
	I don't have a right with laws against it.
	Um, I guess, you know, I'm a libertarian.
	Well, I'm a libertarian.
	I think they ought to have a right to that.
	But they don't, of course.
	There's laws against it.
	Anyway, that's the basis of it all.
	You think that it would affect people in this way?
	There must be kind of a list of reasons to have such a big war, Daniel.
	Yeah, I mean, and you know, you could also make the argument that, um, however it's come down, it's, um, you know, we have to see it as kind of, I mean, there are positive aspects, too.
	You know, and it does seem like in the 60s, early 70s, you know, the culture wasn't ready for the kind of psychedelic evolution or revolution.
	And it was kind of shaking things loose and the energy got really, really dark, you know, kind of symbolized by Charles Manson and the Rolling Stones, Ultimate Concert and stuff.
	Sure.
	In a way, we needed to step back.
	And I, you know, what I learned when I did Breaking Open the Head was that, you know, in the intervening like 30 years, there's been An amazing kind of underground investigation, and a lot more knowledge has been pulled together, and those people who continued in the field have gone really, really deep and uncovered amazing amounts of information and material.
	How many people are actively working in these areas, do you think, Daniel?
	I don't know.
	I mean, it's very difficult to say.
	I mean, there are certainly thousands.
	More and more people go down to South America to seek out shamanic experiences, which is illegal.
	Shamans also come here from other countries.
	And drugs are not the only way to explore non-ordinary states of consciousness.
	Oh, absolutely.
	We were dealing with that in the first hour.
	But having said that, Daniel, they are one way to legitimately explore an altered state, are they not?
	Yeah, of course, and they're, you know, they provide you with access to extraordinary, you know, sort of vibrational field of consciousness that, you know, I don't think years of meditation is going to take you where, you know, DMT takes you in five minutes.
	Yeah, well, Terence, you know, talked a lot about that.
	DMT.
	I think it was DMT he talked a lot about, wasn't it?
	He talked a lot about DMT and a lot about psilocybin.
	Yeah, so DMT.
	He was famous for talking about the machine elves of hyperspace that appeared to him on DMT.
	Yes, yes.
	What an incredible man he was.
	And so, what can you tell me about DMT?
	Well, it's definitely one of the most extraordinary experiences you can have to take DMT.
	Can you describe it?
	Yeah, I mean, you basically... I mean, I've only had it a few times myself.
	You smoke it.
	And, uh, it's very nasty stuff.
	Well, the first thing that should be mentioned about it, it's the DMT stands for dimethyltryptamine.
	Yes.
	And it's, um, it is a chemical that's contained in the brain and in the body.
	It's, uh, probably stored in the pineal gland.
	It's also in the spine at the base of the spine.
	Really?
	And, um, it's very similar in structure to serotonin.
	Uh, so it's probably, or, and melatonin.
	So it's basically kind of a neurotransmitter.
	It may have something to do with sleep and dream states.
	I was going to say, those are used to aid sleep, right?
	Yeah, melatonin, yeah.
	And there's a very interesting book called DMT, The Spirit Molecule.
	Dr. Rick Strassman had official approval to study DMT and came up with some very interesting theories about it.
	The Spiritual Molecule?
	The Spirit Molecule, yeah.
	But anyway, the experience is when you smoke it, it's a sort of synthetic form of it.
	It's first of all a very strange substance.
	It's kind of like a weird plastic.
	You said nasty.
	It's very nasty.
	Really?
	It smells nasty.
	It's just weird.
	It has a kind of extraterrestrial tang to it.
	And the first thing that happens is that the whole area around you kind of fills with geometric patterns and runes and kind of strange symbols of some sort.
	Really?
	Then you kind of, in a very Star Trek kind of way, kind of hyperspace into, you know, sort of transport into this other reality.
	Man, that's wild.
	This is a pretty common experience.
	I mean, are you just giving me anecdotal evidence for yourself, or is this described fairly universally?
	It seems to be pretty completely universal, actually.
	My, my.
	Yeah.
	And I mean, the first thing that one It feels when one kind of arrives at this other realm, or whatever it is, that it's incredibly different.
	And the best that I could do to describe it, and I actually, I mean I have actually seen elves a few times, but usually on DMT, I haven't seen elves.
	It's more like some kind of like thousand-eyed, chattering, sort of hyper-organic entities who are in this kind of strange, vaulted, kind of plastic-feeling space.
	How in the world can people taking this drug have such a similar experience unless they actually are in a place that really is?
	How in the world can people taking this drug have such a similar experience unless they
	actually are in a place that really is?
	In other words, you would expect a drug would have very different effects on different people
	firing off in a different way, but for them to have a common experience as you're describing
	would seem to suggest that it's real, that whatever it is you're transforming in to be
	able to understand and see around you really is in existence.
	Yeah, I mean I definitely felt that it was at least as real as this reality.
	If you look at, you know, superstring theory and, like, you know, the Brian Greene book and so on, I mean, you know, quantum physics kind of opens up the possibility that there are these other dimensions.
	Oh, of course it does.
	We're talking about 10 or 11 dimensions of space-time.
	That's right.
	Yes.
	So, and, but, you know, of course, physics doesn't want to kind of project the possibility that, you know, we could actually be connected to the other dimensions or have kind of direct experiences of them.
	Well, listen, next time I have one of my theoretical physicists on, I'll bring up DMT, and we'll see what kind of reaction we get.
	Yeah, I mean, one thing I'm trying to do in the new book is try to, like, just, you know, if you think about all these different substances and these kind of different realities they introduce you to, these different kind of domains or dimensions, it sort of gives you a different idea of what consciousness is.
	You know, I sort of keep thinking of it now as being a kind of vibration or frequency or something.
	And these different chemicals, you know, it may actually be that they, you know, sort of change the vibrational rate of synapses firing or Was there anything, Daniel, in your... I mean, did your present reality, when you took EMT, dissolve entirely to this newer or different reality?
	Or was there vestige of what was around you physically still?
	Complete delusion into this other reality, which takes over entirely, the entire perceptual field.
	At first, you're actually having a hard time remembering that you are anything.
	Wow.
	Then you kind of figure out that you are you, and that you're just in this alternate reality.
	And then by the time you figure that out, you begin to come back into the normal reality.
	That quickly?
	The whole experience lasts about five to seven minutes.
	I'd heard it was very short.
	And does it feel short?
	In other words... No, it feels like a different kind of time.
	And in fact, the second time I did it, it was with a group of people.
	And as I was kind of in this Overwhelming reality.
	I said out loud, um, you know, thank you very much.
	You know, trying to be courteous to the entities there.
	Uh, you know, I really appreciate this.
	And now I'd like to go back to my reality.
	Really?
	So you were, you were a polite traveler.
	I think it's good to be polite.
	I mean, you definitely feel that.
	I mean, McCann actually talked about how you kind of feel that the beings in that reality, it's like you don't want to turn your back on them.
	They have a kind of a kind of cunning, You know, kind of sorcerous kind of vibe to them.
	You feel like you have to keep your wits about you.
	But the other thing I want to say is that when I started to come out of the DMT trip, you know, I looked down at my arm and it was like my arm was covered with this kind of science fiction jeweled city.
	Then I looked around at the other people in the room.
	All of them were sort of, it was like they'd become the kind of cosmic Cartoon superheroes are their greatest fantasies.
	They all have these kind of armatures around them and, you know, kind of suits of multicolored kind of prismatic and it was just such a strange thing.
	It was like, you know, I was just baffled basically because it just didn't seem possible that a drug could create this effect.
	It wasn't like all over everything.
	It was like each person individually was in this kind of their own separate kind of superhero or kind of Cosmic deity or mature.
	This is all right, Daniel.
	Hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	From the high desert in the middle of the night, oh, this will be some trip tonight.
	You're listening to Coast to Coast AM.
	martin jimmy
	jimmy jimmy
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	I mean, you've got to give it a little thought.
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	Absolutely intriguing. I mean, you've got to give it a little thought. If all those,
	or even the great majority of those using this DMT, and I've certainly never used it,
	but if they actually experience roughly the same thing, generally the same alternate reality,
	then if that's really true, that would suggest that that alternate reality is real.
	Oh.
	How could it suggest anything else?
	How could there be such a uniform chemical effect on any brain That would take it to the same place.
	Couldn't be.
	So that means there's really got to be something to it.
	when you think about it that really is something professor micho kaku who i'm honored to interview
	frequently the way.
	Talks all the time about 11 dimensions.
	All the time about 11 dimensions.
	Beginning to be pretty, I don't want to say generic, because it's still exotic, but I mean, you know, talked about right across the scientific community.
	And so are you suggesting, Daniel, that DMT may be a legitimate ticket to a glimpse of one of those dimensions?
	I mean, I suppose, yes.
	But I mean, even our language is so difficult, you know, because maybe they won't see them as dimensions in a year or two.
	I mean, who knows?
	You know, it's like the kind of thought and the language is kind of still evolving to understand all of this.
	Yes, the words are hard because you're describing things that, I understand that, are not able to be described in our frame of reference.
	Yeah, so it's a kind of evolutionary process.
	What I really see as happening is kind of like mysticism, or what's traditionally been thought of as mysticism, or esoteric traditions and contemporary science, you know, beginning to reach the point where they can look at each other and see that they're basically saying the same thing.
	Cross-pollinate a bit?
	Yeah, I mean this has been, you know, something that's been happening Over time, you know, since, you know, the 60s, also, I suppose, like the Tao of Physics and so on.
	But, you know, science, even though, you know, quantum physics sort of states that the mind, you know, is central to the whole process of investigation, we haven't fully kind of integrated that idea into our way of looking at the world, because it's kind of a big shift.
	Do you recall from your experience, other than what you said, which you just related, any other interactivity that occurred?
	Did you receive any message?
	Did you make any observation that was profound and still now seems profound?
	Right.
	Actually, what I've really discovered is that I think that DMT is an incredibly powerful experience.
	Yes.
	And it's incredibly, you know, overwhelming experience.
	But if you want to actually work with psychedelics, and you know, I almost think of them more as like medicines in a way now, sort of psychic medicines or something.
	But there are better substances to work with.
	So, you know, I've received messages on iboga, also known as ibogaine, which is an African psychedelic.
	And I've received a lot of messages on ayahuasca, which is a South American potion.
	Any commonality?
	In other words, if you look at DMT and then you look at some of the drugs you just talked about, is there any commonality or are they that different?
	There's definitely commonality.
	I mean, you know, well, definitely.
	I mean, first of all, Ayahuasca contains DMT as one of its ingredients.
	Some of the plants contained that they use contain DMT.
	There's a cocktail of even more stuff, huh?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Exactly.
	And what I really feel is like, um, it's really kind of like, I mean, our sort of computer metaphors help us here because it's almost like, um, Ayahuasca and Ibogaine or Iboga are kind of like interfaces over the DMT, uh, you know, face space, whatever it is.
	What do you mean interfaces?
	Well, it's kind of like, it's kind of like, um, you know, over the, if the DMT realm of some kind of like cosmic machine language or some kind of, um, You know, operating system that we're not really, you know, ready quite yet to access.
	iOS and IBM are kind of like, you know, Macintosh Windows or something.
	They're just, they slow things down.
	And they allow you to have real communication and to pull in messages that can really help your own evolution and understanding.
	i don't know if apple should be happier unhappy with what you just said
	with i'm sure they didn't like the slowdown part but uh...
	you're suggesting that these other drugs allow you glimpse of
	watch compared to the dmt experience that you did explain uh...
	I think they allow you to interact With the kind of cosmic intelligences that are manifest during the DMT experience, but are kind of just too much.
	Our little brains are not ready for it yet.
	In fact, the last time I took it, I only took Ibogaine twice.
	I took it once in West Africa.
	I went through tribal initiation for breaking open the head, and I took it in a ritual there.
	Then I also took it again in Mexico.
	Ibogaine is very interesting because it's actually Being used very successfully recently for treating heroin and other addictions.
	Really?
	Yes, especially heroin.
	And what is it about this drug that would assist somebody withdrawing from, say, heroin?
	What is it?
	It seems to have several different aspects, and one is that, first of all, it's a very long-lasting psychedelic.
	It's probably about, you know, 15 to 20 hours.
	Oh, that's kind of like LSD.
	Yes, well, it's probably longer than LSD, and it's very different than LSD.
	But it has two aspects to it.
	One is that it's very psychoanalytic.
	People have described it as ten years of psychoanalysis in one night.
	And my own first experience of it was very psychoanalytic when I went through it, so a lot of really childhood material.
	Kind of like re-experience, kind of sense memories of what it had been like to be a little child.
	So it was introspective?
	You reviewed, was it like a life review?
	It was definitely like a life review.
	It definitely showed me, you know, certain patterns and things that I was doing that were unhealthy.
	I mean, it showed me, and it definitely keyed in.
	That was when I was in my late 20s, and it keyed into my relationship to alcohol.
	And, you know, after that I did cut down on drinking, because I just realized I was having a really negative effect on my life.
	Really?
	Yeah, it showed me just how I was kind of, you know, acting on my relationships and on my writing and how I was kind of not a helper, you know.
	Well, if it did things this good, if it took somebody off heroin or alcohol, which is, I don't want to say equally as bad, but is awful, that would be a pro-society kind of drug.
	I mean, if it really did that, then you would think why the government might even encourage that, encourage the use.
	Yeah, I mean, well, I guess there were some government trials, but then that kind of interrupted pretty early on.
	Oh, really?
	And there's still ongoing research.
	There's Debra Mash, a doctor in Florida, and she's been putting out, I think, you know, very, very substantial research that this has benefited.
	Then there's a lot of anecdotal... Is there anything good published on this aspect of it yet?
	Yeah, I believe there is.
	Probably if you went to the website for MAPS, which is the Multidisciplinary Approach to Psychedelic Studies, Yes.
	Which is maps.org and did a search for Ibogaine, you know, stuff would pop up.
	There's a lot of information on Ibogaine on the internet.
	The Journal of American Medical Association did an article last year looking at it and taking it very seriously.
	And I have a number of friends who've been cured from heroin addiction from Ibogaine, taking it once or several times.
	And you think that this is entirely psychological?
	No.
	It seems to have two aspects.
	There's the psychoanalytic aspect, and there's also an aspect which is somehow purely physiological or chemical.
	It seems to kind of reset people's addiction receptors.
	And people who go in there with a heroin problem, after taking Ibogaine, they don't have much withdrawal symptoms.
	So it would be analogous to resetting, you know, for example, I have a lot of ham radios and stuff, they all have microprocessors, and you can issue a couple of commands, just about anything, and do a reset to all the defaults, and you're saying it's analogous to that, from an addiction point of view, that it does a reset?
	Yeah, that seems to be the case.
	Wow!
	So it basically gives people a few months to, you know, but then they have to be serious about really trying to change their life patterns.
	I mean, it's not a cure for addiction, it's a You know, a kind of incredible medicine or technology.
	Well, there are two strong aspects to addiction, right?
	One is physical, and the other is psychological.
	Right, and just habitual.
	I mean, people's whole lives become based on getting the drug.
	So they don't change the pattern of their life.
	Yes, and you're saying this attacks both of those at the same time.
	That would be such incredible news.
	That should be headline news, if that's really true.
	Well, it is incredible news, and I believe that it is correct.
	A lot of people have been having this experience.
	I feel it's like filtering more and more into the public consciousness.
	I mean, I wrote about it for LA Weekly a while back.
	There was a really great article in the UK.
	An observer, an English addict, got off heroin for taking it.
	Described beautifully, his experience.
	Do you think psychedelics should be legal?
	Basically, what we have in our society now is an incredibly unlicensed experiment of chemicals gone haywire.
	I don't see why anybody should be allowed to self-determine the chemicals they're going to use at this point, considering What we're being subjected to, you know, I never signed up for, you know, various pesticides or, you know, all these different kinds of things that we're just being bombarded with constantly.
	So why shouldn't I be allowed to self-determine substances that I would like to take?
	You know, but I mean, I do also think that Good to respect the laws of the country that you're in.
	Okay, let's just for a second talk about danger.
	Alright?
	I want to know the truth and I really want a straight across truthful answer about is there any danger in any of these psychedelics?
	And if so, what kind of danger?
	How severe?
	Lay it out.
	Right, I mean, there is psychological danger, definitely.
	And yeah, there definitely are dangers.
	Some of the dangers are dangers that we don't actually have kind of categories for.
	I mean, if you read my book, I have an experience with a substance called DPT, Dipropyl Tryptamine.
	Yes.
	It's a kind of analog of DMT.
	Yes.
	And after that experience, I had like, I was in a kind of Weird kind of occult waking dream state for a while.
	I had all these kind of crazy synchronicities happen, and I had this kind of what basically it felt like, you know, and up to doing that experience, I'd never really thought much about the Western occult tradition, and I'd never really paid much attention to Aleister Crowley and people like that, but I had, you know, the sense of this kind of entity who was appearing in my dreams, and then poltergeist phenomena started in the house, like, you know, mirrors started falling off the walls, I actually had to call in a friend to do an exorcism.
	What?
	To kind of reintegrate the energy that had been released.
	I'm sorry, what was this drug again?
	It was DPT, dimethyltryptamine.
	It's a synthetic chemical.
	I don't even know what it was exactly produced.
	But if you think of DMT as dimethyltryptamine, methyl and propyl are simple carbon compounds.
	So you have like methyl, methyl, methylene, propylene, you know.
	So it's a synthetic analog of DMT, but it has a very different effect.
	Obviously.
	Yeah.
	So anyway, so that was a very interesting and ultimately powerful and amazing lesson and stuff that I wouldn't have believed up until that point.
	Well, was it negative?
	Well, it was negative.
	I mean, what I've more and more come to see as I've explored this stuff more and thought about it is that it's, you know, There's a reason why these shamanic cultures developed as they did.
	They have kind of rituals around the substances, and for these indigenous cultures, a lot of them, these substances are really the sacred essence of their cultures.
	Well, no, you're absolutely correct to suggest that.
	I mean, face it, folks, these cultures, when you look at them, have gigantic traditions and religions built around this, so there is something to this.
	Do you think that DPT opened a door, Daniel, that remained open, allowing... Well, what?
	Spirits?
	Allowing... Allowing what through?
	Well, you know, ultimately I think it was kind of like a genie or something, but um... A genie?
	Yes.
	A genie?
	Well, a djinn.
	That's what the Islamic tradition calls them.
	Or a kind of, uh...
	You know, and not a demon, but a kind of diamond.
	It was kind of like an amoral, kind of luciferic kind of a being.
	It was very important just for my development.
	I mean, from that experience, I was able to kind of understand that there's a kind of, you know, some level of truth to the Western occult tradition.
	I got very fascinated with the ideas of Rudolf Steiner.
	He was an Austrian visionary who wrote in the early part of the 20th century, started a whole movement called Anthroposophy.
	He was trying to institute a kind of spiritual science, which would be a sort of systematic way that people could enter into other domains of consciousness through meditation techniques and developing clarity during the dream states and stuff.
	A lot of the experiences I had, I found that he gave me a real context for understanding.
	I know, but to have to go to the extreme of having an exorcism, Daniel, there must have been some pretty significant stuff going on.
	For how long did it go on after you ingested this DPD?
	It was maybe two or three weeks.
	Two or three weeks.
	And during those two or three weeks, what did you experience?
	I mean, calling, having somebody do an exorcism, that's, you know, that's pretty serious.
	I mean, you're obviously having serious trouble to go to that extent to find an exorcist.
	What happened?
	Well, I mean, it was interesting.
	The person who did the exorcism was a friend of mine who's a, you know, sort of has skill as a witch, and she'd actually taken a substance with her originally.
	And I went away from my house for a week, and then I came back, and we both kind of, you know, I mean, I reentered the space, and I could feel that the energy was just completely crazy in the space.
	And I brought her back, and we both could feel this kind of, it really felt like this kind of, you know, occult energy was just crackling in the room.
	And, you know, luckily she had some kind of skills for dealing with this stuff.
	It involved obsidian.
	It's a very good substance, obsidian.
	Black obsidian is known to absorb negative occult energies.
	We have a mountain of obsidian pretty close to where I am.
	It's beautiful.
	Black, shiny obsidian.
	It's just beautiful.
	So we have a whole mountain of it here if you need some.
	Yeah.
	I mean, basically for me it was also a big lesson in You know, I mean, Carl Jung talks about the reality of the psyche and the kind of shadow, and how you have to work with the shadow, and it can actually be projected and take kind of psychophysical manifestations.
	But didn't this experience with DBD put on the big caution light for you in terms of I mean, you're dabbling in areas that you don't know about, and obviously you just dabbled in one that bit you in the behind a little bit.
	So, did it throw on the caution light for you?
	Yes, it threw on the caution light for me.
	But I also, I mean, my feeling through this whole investigation that I did for the book was that, you know, to a certain extent, once I understood the seriousness of it and began to have these, you know, kind of shamanic experiences, I felt that It was absolutely necessary that somebody like me go to the limit and try to interpret these domains for the modern consciousness.
	Were you ever concerned for your life?
	I mean, if you summon something of the nature you've talked about, you'd have to be, for a while, pretty damn scared and concerned for your life.
	Yes, I have been concerned, not only for my life, but the lives of people around me.
	If you look at Shamanism, Eliade in his book on Shamanism talks about how when somebody goes through their own kind of shamanic initiation process, which is basically what I think happened today, the energy can be sort of uncontained and can sort of bounce around and affect people around them.
	This is kind of recognized in shamanic societies.
	And you know, my father did die while I was writing the book.
	Think about that and stay right there.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	Daniel Pinchbeck is my guest, and you're listening to one of several journeys Daniel took to the center of his mind.
	I'm Art Belt.
	Nights in white satin, never reaching the end.
	Letters I've written, Never meaning to send Beauty out of ways with these eyes.
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	800-893-0903. From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast
	to Coast AM with Art Bell. This of course is a little more than vaguely
	Peruvian, it's Cusco you're listening to and of things Peruvian.
	I thought I'd mentioned my very good friend, and you'll remember her from
	years ago on this program, Bonnie Crystal, in search of the deepest holes in
	the ground and the earth.
	She's in Peru right now.
	I'm gonna have her on for at least an hour, about August 1st.
	She's in Peru with thousands and thousands of feet of rope and an entire crew, and they're attempting to go further into the earth than anybody's ever gone.
	That's what she does.
	So she's in Peru at the moment.
	I've got a schedule to try and meet her on the air and talk with her on ham radio.
	But she's down at the base camp now at a high altitude where they have found some caves they're going to explore.
	And Bonnie will indeed be on the program by satellite or however we're going to get her on.
	About or on August 1st.
	So you're going to want to listen for that.
	Daniel Pinchback is my guest, and what a fascinating topic this all is.
	We're talking about psychedelic drugs.
	Pretty cool.
	You don't frequently get guests who write on a subject as Daniel has written on this subject.
	By the way, I should promote his book for him.
	It's Breaking Open the Head.
	Now there's a title for you.
	Breaking Open the Head.
	You can get it at Amazon.com and so forth.
	And we are talking about psychedelic drugs, and Daniel was telling us about DPT, and he admits that it opened some kind of door.
	That's just an expression, but he had to have an exorcism.
	Well, it sounded like you were worried that some of that negative energy that was, I guess, surrounding you, could that have had anything to do with your father's death?
	My father actually died before that.
	There was a... You know, it's interesting.
	I mean, our kind of... I was just thinking about this over the break.
	I mean, you know, there were dark things that happened during my investigation of psychedelics.
	It was mainly this DPT thing kind of ripped the veil off in terms of darkness and shadow material.
	How dark was it?
	Well, it was pretty dark.
	I mean, the most...
	Kind of, you know, traumatic thing that happened is that my girlfriend at the time was pregnant.
	And probably maybe a couple months after the DPT, I had this incredibly vivid dream the night before she was going to get an ultrasound.
	And in the dream, it was a dream like I'd never had before.
	It had a kind of sizzle to it.
	It was vibrantly colorful and alive.
	Yes.
	And in the dream I was at the top of a skyscraper, and I uncovered in a cult conspiracy, they were about to do this kind of ritual sacrifice.
	Yes.
	And I was a kind of undercover agent.
	And I stumbled on this thing, and they chased me out.
	I was on 42nd Street.
	And these two kind of assassins came up to me, and they said, tomorrow we're going to kill you, your girlfriend, and your baby.
	And I woke up, you know, immediately after that.
	It was the morning.
	And, um, had tremendous anxiety over this, uh, ultrasound that Laura was going to do.
	And up until then, you know, the pregnancy had seemed absolutely normal.
	And when she did the ultrasound that day, it turned out that the baby had a, uh, slight handicap.
	Uh, I mean, she's now three years old.
	She's a very beautiful child, but she does have a slight handicap, a kind of limited range of motion in her arms.
	And I believe that was punishment for, um, trespassing and going after knowledge, um, without a kind of traditional, Well, how do you come to that conclusion?
	I mean, how do you come to the conclusion that with any amount of training or understanding of what you're doing, that it would have been all right?
	I mean, that's such a severe... God, that's a severe punishment, Daniel.
	That's a lot of guilt to carry around, my friend, if you really believe that.
	Well, it's, I mean, from my perspective, I'm pretty sure that it's the case.
	Isn't that an awful lot of guilt to carry with you?
	Well, it's heavy duty, but I mean, you know, what I, you know, and, you know, perhaps, you know, I mean, how can I say this?
	I mean, what came, what I kind of ascertained from doing this book and then working on this book about prophecies is that in some sense, you know, I feel that I am a kind of messenger who's trying to Bring in this kind of information that the culture is very, you know, resistant and reluctant to deal with.
	And we don't really have categories for it yet.
	And, you know, it's, in a way, it's a kind of return.
	I mean, you know, McKenna talked about an archaic revival.
	It's a return to very old kind of information, you know.
	I'll tell you right now what you've described over the last, I don't know, 30 or 40 minutes.
	That's enough to cause anybody to go, Keep it away from me.
	I don't want anything to do with it.
	Not if anything like that, or any part of it, could even happen.
	That's fine.
	Of course people can think that, but you really have to go deeper than that, because you have to think about what all this material says.
	And I can tell you equally powerful stories about healings that have taken place through the Native American Church, through using peyote, through ayahuasca.
	I've heard many stories from people of their incredible healings from cancers and all sorts of ailments.
	So, it can go both ways.
	Well, yeah, and the more you're rooted in tradition, and, you know, are kind of pushing the energy up, and I think that part of my problem was, you know, as a kind of New York, you know, nihilistic kid, the background I was coming out of, you know, I was a little bit attracted to the dark side, you know, and that attraction kind of pulled me in.
	And even that, I don't think, is all bad, you know, because the dark side is part of us.
	There's something ridiculous about the New Age spirituality, which is always kind of insisting on this kind of bliss, money, love, and light.
	I know.
	You know, we actually have to do, I mean, when you realize this stuff is for real, you know, we have incredibly hard work to do to kind of integrate the dark and the light and to recognize the shadow.
	To integrate the dark and the light.
	Boy, a lot of people would argue against that.
	They can never be integrated.
	They're like matter and anti-matter.
	How do you integrate the dark and the light?
	I think it's becoming more and more clear that... I mean, I think Carl Jung is, you know, underestimated.
	He's incredibly important and valuable, but his whole idea that, you know, as psychic beings, you know, we have this shadow, this sort of dark matter, and if we don't deal with it, if we don't integrate it, if we don't look at it, we project it.
	And if I look at what's happening in our world right now, what basically seems to be the case is that people don't want to deal with the dark matter of the psyche.
	They don't want to deal with the shadows.
	We're just projecting it further and further.
	When I look at the war on Iraq, what I basically see are people like Bush and Cheney who don't want to take any sort of personal responsibility for their own psyche.
	They're simply projecting the shadow deeper and deeper into material reality.
	Uh, to the point where we threaten the destruction of the whole planet, you know, in terms of using radiation, depleted uranium, nuclear bombs.
	Well, you see, this attitude that you're expressing right now is clearly why it's against the law.
	You've gone right to the core of it!
	If you become anti-war, anti-administration, anti-anti-anti, then that's why it's illegal, and there's no amount of cajoling or good deeds that you can cite from it that's going to get it made legal if it does this.
	Well, I have to say that from my perspective as a messenger, and you know that in this new book I've been studying the prophecies around 2012, Yeah, we'll talk about that.
	I mean, I don't think that this civilization in its present form is going to exist for too much longer.
	Oh, you don't?
	No, I don't.
	And I think that, you know, the turnover is going to require a kind of reckoning with the psyche, with the dark matter of the psyche, that has to be on an individual level to prevent, basically, you know, global death.
	To prevent global death.
	What signs or understandings have you received to believe that global death is pending?
	Well, I mean, I think it's clear that if you, I mean, it basically, what happened to me was during this book, the breaking open the head, I went down to the Amazon.
	And, um, you know, I had never been to the Amazon before, and it's an incredibly amazing experience to go to the jungle for the first time.
	I mean, you definitely feel this kind of, uh, creative force and fecundity of nature, and this kind of, kind of PlayStation for nature to express itself.
	We passed through these huge sections of the Amazon that the people who'd been there a lot, you know, said that, you know, 10, 15 years ago were an incredibly lush jungle, and they were now basically scrubland.
	And, you know, section by section, several million acres at a time, the Amazon is hacked down.
	Well, basically, first, you know, the oil company goes in, finds oil, builds a road.
	Then the kind of poor mestizos, you know, start burning out for farms.
	Timber companies move in and take out the logs.
	And after a few years, you have, you know, from the kind of living lungs of the planet, you have just sort of scrubland that can barely support anything.
	Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
	And this is happening... The astronauts, Daniel, from space, say the one sure thing they always see from space, without question, are all the fires in Brazil and in South America and All the burning of forests that's being done, they see that from space as a constant.
	And so you're right, they're burning it up down there.
	But the point that I wanted to make is just that each big discovery for the oil companies, this huge inroad and this destruction usually destroys one or two Indian tribes who've been holding on, leads to enough oil to support the U.S.
	demand for oil.
	For something in the area of like three to five days.
	So when I understood this fully, and I came back and I started reading about the ecological situation, I realized that the unsupportable nature of our society is beyond what most people are capable of reckoning with.
	To be fair, Daniel, it's not just the oil companies.
	Listen, the government will build a road, for example, in Brazil through the rainforest, and then farmers will come along And they'll burn down part of the rainforest and plant it, and it's good for two or three years, and then the soil is no longer any good, so they've got to burn down more of it, and more of it.
	So it's not just the oil companies that are contributing to the destruction of the rainforest, it's... And it's not just the rainforest.
	I mean, as we know, you know, a year ago there were all these articles about how the oceans are 90% fished out, and entire oceanic food chains have disappeared.
	But, you know, when I walk around New York, I don't notice People consuming less marine life.
	You know, people are sitting in restaurants eating gigantic swordfish and tuna and everything else.
	So we seem to be, you know, so basically what I came to understand when I put these two things together, on the one hand, there's this kind of shamanic and occult and psychic reality, which our society has completely negated and suppressed, but actually is completely real.
	And then there's this kind of materialist destruction of the planet taking place.
	That these had to be reconciled.
	And what I really began to understand is that the kind of material destruction of the biosphere is a willed cataclysm, which is carefully designed to force an evolution of human consciousness to a different level.
	And what I'm presenting in the next book is ultimately, I think, that once we get through the transition, we'll enter an incredibly harmonious and harmonic Is it going to be a sudden transition, Daniel, or a more subtle one?
	I wish I knew that.
	I mean, I can see the end point, the kind of turnaround, and I can see where we are now, but I think that a lot is up to the individuals to, you know, kind of activate their will.
	You know, it's like I was talking to this new-age woman writer, channeler, And she was saying, oh, you know, the prophecy says that there's going to be the rainbow nation.
	We're all going to walk in harmony.
	I was like, you know, it's all well and good, you know, to say that.
	But if you're not actually doing something towards that, I think that that's a problem.
	And even with Terrence McKenna, you know, much as I totally adore his writing, I think that he's a genius.
	There was a sense that, you know, oh, it's just going to happen.
	You know, this 2012 Eschaton's point is, we don't really have to do anything.
	It's kind of a passive situation.
	And I think it's quite the opposite.
	I think that we're actually already in the prophecy, in the transition to the new structure, but it requires individuals willing and doing, and awakening.
	And where do you see the evidence of this being underway already?
	Well, I think that what's happening right now, and this is, you know, Partially personal, partially anecdotal, you know, observational, talking to a lot, a lot of people, and also I've been, you know, studying the crop circles in England, and I think that, you know, that's like one indication of the level.
	That basically material reality is becoming subtly less physically dense and subtly more psychically responsive.
	And that people are experiencing this over time Through increases in synchronization, you sort of think about somebody to call you up.
	You have a dream about something that happens.
	You know, as one of my friends who's studying the crop circle said, it's kind of like the karmic rubber band that's snapping back faster and faster.
	People seem to be getting rewarded and punished.
	It's like there's this kind of sense of incredible psychic acceleration taking place.
	And, you know, it's something that I've just experienced Over every day in my own life, so I know that it's the case.
	And that's the way I look at it.
	It's a change in the kind of vibrational frequency of the planet.
	Do you see it fully as an evolutionary event for the human race, pending?
	Yes, definitely.
	No doubt about it in my mind.
	An evolutionary step?
	But you don't know for sure whether it's going to be a very quick event or it's going to be something that just... Well, it will be a very quick event, because I think by 2012 we'll be in the new state of being.
	2012-2013.
	So, I mean, it's going to have to be pretty quick.
	That's only eight years away, right?
	Are you suggesting that the occurrence of this evolutionary event, the change of I don't know, all these mindsets, impossible as it seems, is sort of an event that's in a race with otherwise what's going to be the end of everything?
	Yes, definitely.
	But it's only in this situation that the evolutionary step could happen.
	Because, you know, humans, when they get into their comfort zones, they get very, very relaxed.
	Absolutely true.
	That's why we've been kind of turning the heat up on everything.
	Is to kind of force ourselves, you know, to take the steps that we have to take.
	How do psychedelics fit into this?
	Is it something that would aid that process along?
	Yeah, I mean, psychedelics are incredible tools and kind of technology for understanding the psyche and for exploring these other dimensions of reality.
	And, you know, they probably will be the beginning of a kind of new science, a new way of exploring paradox and possibility that we just haven't been ready psychically to handle up to this point.
	Yes, but if the end result of the use of some of these is to put one in The psychological mindset that you're in right now, I mean, you began to explain your worldview and so forth, then the chances of that ever becoming legal, and hence widespread, are almost slim and none.
	Well, you're under the assumption that this civilization is going to continue in its present form, and that in any way that legality is really the key issue here.
	I mean, what is happening is happening, and whether You know, the kind of government establishment of a certain country wants to do something or not, it can't prevent what is, you know, meant to happen and, in some sense, already has happened.
	Do you have any... Okay, but there's got to be that wake-up point, right?
	With events.
	Events have got to get so dramatic.
	Right, right.
	I mean, one thing that... This is complicated.
	It's something I'm trying to really explore in the new book, which is that We're having, what we're experiencing is a kind of phase shift of consciousness.
	The consciousness we're in right now, which is kind of mental, rational consciousness, is obsessed with masses and statistics and abstract quantities.
	So, you know, we're always concerned about mass, this and cataclysms and so on.
	The consciousness structure that we're moving into is kind of the opposite.
	It's much more about kind of subtle distinctions, qualities, Attunements and synchronicities and deeper levels of being.
	So, you know, I certainly hope that there will be a mass awakening.
	And I certainly work for that, you know, whenever I speak or whatever I write.
	But, you know, it may happen in a different way.
	You know, it may not be like the 60s where suddenly, you know, 50 million kids turn on to a whole new culture.
	Something that happens in a different way.
	So, an event outside that arena all together?
	Yeah, I mean, you know, new things manifest in a new way.
	Yeah, that's a fact.
	Alright, thank you very much.
	Hold on, Daniel.
	We'll get back to all of this.
	With Daniel Pinchback, he thinks there's going to be an evolutionary step for mankind.
	That it's going to be like the gigantic lightbulb goes on.
	And of course, it's a race, because there's a darkness out there.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
	I'm Art Bell.
	What will you do when you get lonely Oh, I'm waiting by your side
	You've been up, I've been up too long You always just a good man, well
	Got me on my knees, baby Begging, darling, please
	Darling, won't you please run away Try to give me motivation
	Oh, man, I know you know To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
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	Even if you're not going to take the trip yourself, and it's certainly not recommended
	by For All, or maybe it is by Daniel, I don't know.
	But it sure is fascinating to hear the experiences of one who has taken these trips.
	And boy, he has taken a few.
	The DBT one was really fascinating.
	We're going to get back to that in a way in a moment.
	stay right there the phones have been you know lit like
	a december twenty-fifth tree for the hours that we've been on
	So it's obvious you want to talk to Daniel, and you're going to get your opportunity.
	I promise.
	We're talking about psychedelics, DMT, some derivatives of it, and then DPT, kind of a scary Drug to be sure.
	And either way, whether it's DMT or DPT or something else, these are really, really powerful, powerful experiences that you've described, Daniel, very powerful, no matter how you look at it, pro or negative.
	And you've had both.
	So, you know, this is part of the danger question, Daniel.
	Haven't there been people, or are they just government-generated disinformation stories You know, people have ended up in psych wards.
	I mean, popped some sort of something and, you know, like the song says, you might not come back.
	Have there been people, Daniel, who haven't come back?
	Yes, definitely.
	Okay.
	It's basically all you can do, because we don't have any real science on psychedelics, Um, because there's so much, you know, hysteria around the subject.
	Yes, yes.
	Negativity.
	Yes.
	That all that the individual can do, if they're interested in this area, is to do the best they can to gather, you know, information.
	I mean, there's a website, erowid.org.
	Okay, but that's what I've got you here for.
	You've gathered the information.
	Right.
	When I asked, are there people who end up in wards, the answer was yes.
	So, tell me.
	Yes, I mean, um, It is unclear with people who ended up in wards whether or not what happened with the chemical psychedelics were due to the psychedelics were due to the psychedelics activating some pre-existing schizophrenic or psychotic condition.
	Yes.
	So, you know, there are definitely dangers here.
	I mean, however, before the culture turned kind of negative against LSD, for instance, in the 60s, It was considered an astonishingly safe drug, a wonder drug, in the 50s and early 60s.
	They'd done thousands and thousands of studies with it and had not had any serious problems.
	All right, let me approach it this way with you, Daniel.
	There are also more experimental chemicals that are newer, and some of them are very dosage sensitive.
	And we don't really know too much about a lot of them, you know, including DPT.
	So people are, you know, definitely, you know, being, I mean, I guess the term is psychonauts, you know, I mean, they're definitely taking risks.
	Alright, alright, so here it is for you, Daniel.
	I went through the 60s like everybody else, and what I remember is people who were unstable, Leaning toward the psychotic who used marijuana, very light compared to what else we're talking about here, would definitely get into a more psychotic state of mind using marijuana.
	So I assume it's a similar thing you're describing to me here and you're suggesting that if you end up in a psych ward someplace that there was something in your brain that would have had you there eventually anyway or you tended toward that I can't really know that.
	I'm not a scientist.
	I'm not a doctor.
	I'm not a psychologist.
	I have to go with my own subjective experiences that for me and for some of the people that I know, these explorations have been very, very valuable and have been worth the risks that we've had to take.
	And there are also a lot of substances where we know there are almost no risks, including mushrooms and peyote Uh, you know, the natural ones, ayahuasca, where there are, you know, thousands, maybe tens of thousands of years of, uh, relationship between human nervous systems and these plant compounds.
	Right.
	Um, so clearly those are, those would be, you know, if, you know, if it was possible, good places to start.
	And especially if it's conducted with somebody who's knowledgeable, who's a shaman, who's been trained in some way.
	I mean, the, Music is very important.
	I mean, basically, my understanding is that in indigenous tribal societies, the rates of mental illness are much, much lower.
	Do you think that a native shaman would speak sufficiently to a person that he's about to introduce to a trip of this sort and that a traditional shaman would look for those signs, those negative signs that would indicate a potential bad or disastrous trip and stop it and not proceed?
	You know, it's possible, but I feel like this whole area of inquiry, for me, there's an element here which is like, all we can do in this area, and I think it's positive in a strange way, is because we don't really know that much, the science has been rigged, and you know, there's so much scary about it.
	I know.
	It's an area where the individual has to decide for themselves, and completely take responsibility for their own activity.
	I don't counsel people to take psychedelics.
	I don't think that's correct.
	It's completely up to the individual.
	We have a society where people really want to have experts.
	They don't want to take responsibility.
	They want to have somebody to blame.
	You know, this is an area where all you can do is get the best material you can.
	You can read books like mine, Andrew Wiles.
	You can study the Erowid website and see what the reports say.
	Well, maybe I can request a stat from you.
	During the 60s, Do we have any records at all, Daniel, that would show how many people ended up in psych wards?
	It's such an old thing to hear.
	I mean, you confirm it did happen, but how many?
	I mean, does anybody have any studies showing...?
	I have no clue.
	I think that the number has been wildly... Exaggerated?
	Correct.
	You know, but I just keep insisting on it, and I have a lot of friends who are psychonauts and trippers, and what sort of bums me out about the way they handle this stuff is that they don't go out of their way to try the indigenous, shamanic, traditional methods, which create a totally different context for these substances and give you an incredibly different sense of their meaning and possibility.
	And in November, I actually have an article out in Black Book Magazine In November, I went down to Brazil, and I went deep into the Amazon on a rickety boat.
	It took like four days to get there.
	We went to the center of this religion called Santo Daime, which uses ayahuasca as a sacrament and kind of mixes Christian and indigenous elements.
	Right.
	And it was an amazing experience.
	The ceremonies were incredibly visionary.
	The music was incredibly beautiful.
	It was the most profound connection to kind of sacredness that I'd ever experienced.
	But on the one hand, Daniel, earlier you told me that no matter what, pretty much, people
	are going to have the same life-altering experience, for example, with DMT.
	But on the other hand, you seem to be sort of looking down your nose a little bit at
	those who don't participate in the traditional aspect of it, but just pop it and have the
	No, no, no.
	I'm certainly not looking down my nose at anyone.
	And I started as somebody who, you know, had popped this stuff to have the experience.
	And I think that's, you know, especially in our culture where we have no traditional basis, that's kind of where you start.
	But if you have this common, wonderful experience, then what difference does it make I don't think the DMT experience is, frankly, that wonderful.
	It scares the bejesus out of you.
	I mean, I think that the more guided tours kind of, you know, I mean what happens to a lot of people is they have one or two very violent and volatile psychedelic experiences and then close the door on the whole subject because it's just something they don't want to deal with ever again.
	You know, whereas if we integrated, you know, the subject better into our culture, Or if people go and had experiences in these other traditions, it would be a much easier landing and a much safer ride.
	And the healing and the positive aspects might predominate over the kind of psychic bungee cord jumping aspect, which I think is pretty trivial.
	I wonder how many people are doing the psychic bungee cording versus those who are getting the right set and setting, as it were.
	Well, I don't know.
	And once again, for me, it's not about statistics and numbers.
	It's about individuals having... Well, it just helps us understand the scope of things, that's all.
	If you have any, just drop them on us.
	I don't have any numbers.
	But I can tell you my little story about seeing the elves down in Brazil.
	By all means.
	Yes.
	I had an experience.
	So this tradition, the Santa Daime, You drink ayahuasca, they have like a kind of round church-like structure.
	Everybody wears white.
	They separate the men and the women.
	It's very much like a church.
	You either stand or sit or dance all night long.
	Sometimes you do this little dance step back and forth for like 12 or 15 hours or something.
	Ah, okay.
	And you sing.
	And it's pretty intense.
	At first I had a very negative reaction to it, and it was just so church-like.
	I couldn't believe it.
	You know, I was kind of running out of the ceremonies.
	And finally, you know, we went down towards the Amazon, and we stopped at this village, and we did the ceremony, and people were dancing all night, my friends were dancing, and I ran out and I went back to my hammock, and the ayahuasca was very, very strong, so I laid down in my hammock, and finally, for the first time, or maybe I've seen it before, but anyway, I saw the Terrence McKenna's, you know, machine elves.
	They came leaping over to me in my close-eyed vision, They were showing me these kind of things in their hands, and pointing in all directions, and being all kind of hectic and crazy.
	Can you describe them?
	Yeah, they're very elf-like.
	You know, kind of attenuated limbs, chirpy, kind of fast-moving, kind of the sense, like, you have the sense that they're kind of like technicians of hyperspace.
	They're kind of like, you know, holding reality together on some level.
	Man.
	Anyway, so I was sort of with that for a little bit, and then I was like, you know, I'm bored of these elves.
	It just seemed more distraction, and it seemed more like something that was just being generated at a certain level of the mind.
	And so I went back to the ceremony, and I actually just invested in the dancing and the singing, and spent the rest of the night there.
	And I realized that when you fully got into the ceremony, that the whole point of doing it is to kind of raise the group vibration and to focus positive energy.
	It was the most amazing experience, devotional experience, that I've ever had in my life.
	And I was not somebody who had ever been very interested in kind of devotion as a spiritual practice.
	I mean, it's called bhakti yoga, you know.
	So then you're saying elves are passé.
	I think elves are passé.
	Passé.
	Yeah.
	I think we have to move into a different level of engagement with this material.
	Which is the ceremony.
	Well, I think it helps.
	I mean, you know, everybody can do whatever they want.
	Well, you said you were kind of, I don't know, you just...
	You didn't really like the dancing, so what changed?
	After the elves and you went back, what changed?
	I understood that my friend who was there described doing the ceremonies as kind of like a spiritual washing machine or something.
	It becomes this way to clear out your psyche of negative stuff and garbage.
	you sort of your your you know your energy is focused upwards
	uh...
	and you know when kind of negative thought come up
	disturbing thought you kind of just learned to like let them go
	and uh...
	stay in the what they call the current so it's almost like psychic yoga or something it's uh...
	a kind of mental training or it's like a kind of of a popular meditation training
	where you're learning how to uh...
	you know using using the the technology of the of the substances me ceremonies
	to retrain your mind that a more positive way is that the mt is likely to scare the hell out of you first
	time Or second time.
	Is it the kind of thing where 90% of the people, see here I am with my numbers again, will try DMT once and say, wow, that was scary, I didn't like that, and never touch it again?
	Yeah, I would think so.
	Really?
	Oh, really?
	So, how are there a few brave individuals who will venture forth from that frightening experience to go on to more?
	Well, yeah, there are definitely some people who find it to be very conducive, or their favorite, you know, experience.
	However, I mean, you know, I just stick to my guns that, well, I think it's an amazing experience and right for some people.
	Did it scare the hell out of you first time?
	Yeah.
	It did?
	All right.
	And what kind of mental adjustment did you make to go for number two?
	Well, I just had to go back and, you know, see what was going on again.
	Curiosity.
	Curiosity, huh?
	Well, you know, yeah, I mean, obviously, since I'm somebody who seems to be involved in this investigation, I have some... Responsibilities?
	Well, yeah, and also a deep, you know, interest and thirst for kind of more knowledge and more understanding.
	So, third and fourth time you popped it and said, I'm doing this for my readers.
	Well, you know, for myself and for, you know, and yeah, I think like, you know, writing about this material is a way of kind of taking in the vibrations and trying to... Of course it is.
	How much feedback do you get about what you have written?
	How much, you know, mail and email and feedback from readers do you get?
	I've gotten quite a lot.
	It's been really beautiful.
	Amazing testimonies, people writing about their own spiritual experiences.
	There's also a discussion board on my website, which has been great.
	People really coming in and kind of wowing me with their intelligence and brilliance.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	How big a subculture do you think this is now?
	I don't know.
	You don't know?
	Well, I mean, you must have some sense.
	You hear from people.
	Do you hear from people across the country?
	Do you hear from people in every state?
	Do they have friends?
	It seems like there's little pockets of it, you know, almost everywhere.
	So, you know, maybe kind of the Northwest, larger concentration.
	Oh, really?
	West Coast, Northwest, yeah.
	Well, so it has always been, I think.
	That's fascinating.
	So, I can only assume from watching the phones tonight, I mean, they just have been lit up like a Christmas tree.
	Either people have a lot of questions or criticism.
	How much criticism do you get just in speaking about this sort of thing, Daniel?
	I think that I sound pretty sensible when I talk about it.
	I haven't gotten an excessive amount of criticism.
	I mean, I would say that it's, you know, my problem has been more that, um, I mean, you know, it's interesting to be in New York City and to be part of the kind of mainstream media world here and to be trying to move these ideas more into the mainstream of the culture.
	And that's definitely a huge struggle.
	And basically what you get is kind of incomprehension and people just not wanting to think about these areas.
	I'm sure.
	Because they, yeah, because obviously it sort of threatens the kind of knowledge system that people are trying to hold on to.
	Well, You know, if all of what you have described comes to pass, or came to pass, in terms of some evolutionary jump, gosh, that's a real biggie, and you'd have to say that most people out there don't see it coming.
	It does seem to be the case.
	Although, I mean, you know, you have, for instance, like the Evangelical Christians completely absorbed in the kind of apocalypse scenario.
	Yes.
	But they see it on such a literal, atavistic level, that to me it's kind of pathetic.
	That's why you really need to go into the Carl Jungian perspective, which sees the apocalypse essentially as a psychic event.
	One of Jung's disciples, Edinger, describes it as the Momentous moment of the coming to self-realization of human consciousness.
	Yes, but you don't really disagree with the Christians about the apocalyptic nature of our future now, do you?
	Not really.
	You agree?
	You agree, actually?
	Well, yeah, I agree.
	I believe that we are in the apocalypse.
	Well, there you are.
	So the differences you describe are... I don't know how meaningful they are.
	I mean, if you really agree Well, I don't think that in the Left Behind series, Christ is going to come on a white horse and, you know, kill millions of, you know, Islamic people or whatever.
	I mean, I think it's a little bit more subtle than that.
	I mean, I think it's more like, you know, that Christ was a real avatar, and that he came at a certain point to bring a kind of higher vibrational level of consciousness to humanity.
	And because it was so higher, it kind of shook everything down to its core.
	And we're moving to the point where we're going to have to All right.
	Hold on, Daniel.
	What we're going to do is open the phone lines when we get back, and this really should be something, because this program really has been something, if you've been listening.
	me my guest is daniel pinchback and uh...
	his book is breaking open
	inside The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sound, or the strength of an oak when it roots deep in the ground.
	The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
	Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing?
	To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing?
	To have all these things in our memories whore?
	And they use them to count us to five Ride, ride like she's tall
	Take this place, off this trip Just for me
	Ride, take a free ride Take my place, up on the sea
	It's for free Wanna take a ride?
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free 800-825-5033.
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	From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	I bet it's interesting reading his book.
	I really do.
	Breaking open the head.
	Daniel Pinchback is my guest and if he writes the way he talks, then it's going to be a very honest assessment.
	A very honest assessment of the world of psychedelics as he knows them.
	Because he's really given us that.
	The positive, from his point of view, and certainly the negative as well.
	Fascinating stuff.
	And we're about to go to the phones.
	I have just a couple more questions, then it's off to all of you.
	Just a couple of more questions, Daniel, then I'd really like to go to the phones.
	Let me be clear on this.
	To you, the year 2012 means what?
	Well, from the Mayan perspective, it means that they were... Basically, if you look at the Mayan and Toltec civilizations for about a thousand years, they were obsessed with trying to establish This particular date, which I think, there's a really good book called Myocosmogenesis 2012, where it's established December 21st, 2012, and it's kind of imprinted in a lot of their sculptures and stonework.
	And at that point, the Earth and the Sun come into direct alignment with the center of the Milky Way, which the Mayans knew as the Cosmic Mother.
	And they also called it a black hole, interestingly enough.
	Because it turns out that there is a huge black hole at the center of the Milky Way.
	Oh yes, that's right.
	That was only discovered recently by astronomers.
	So it's pretty interesting that the Mayans had this idea over a thousand years ago.
	And basically it's kind of like a vibrational step-up or reintegration point, a kind of reconnection with the cosmic center.
	With the kind of, you know, intelligent force, guiding force behind the whole situation we're in.
	Okay, then is that this evolutionary jump point that we were talking about?
	Yeah, I think so.
	I mean, I think what we're going to learn, it's like we've, you know, if you look at modern development in the last couple thousand years in a way, we kind of had to wrench ourselves away from nature and from the cosmos.
	Uh, and become, you know, and have this kind of separate, uh, understanding ourselves as individual egos.
	Yes.
	You know, but if you look at Stonehenge and Chaco Canyon and the way that indigenous traditional cultures think and the pyramids, they were completely aware that human consciousness was integrated with kind of cosmic cycles and, um, uh, you know, kind of galactic cycles, that there were these kind of continual streams of, uh, information waves flowing from the sun and from other parts of the galaxy.
	And, um, You know, I think that's an understanding that we're kind of on the verge of re-accessing.
	Okay.
	Alright, good enough.
	Now, one other subject very quickly.
	Sorry to push you, but I do want to get phone lines.
	Those that we regard as, and what we call, the greys.
	Everybody knows, I think, what the greys are, or what they look like.
	What is your experience with these little things?
	Well, yeah, I mean, that's going to lead me into a long discourse, but I mean, I started studying the crop circles, and then some of the crop circles particularly referenced the grays.
	I mean, nobody's ever made any sense out of the crop circles, so where did you get that, that it referenced grays?
	Well, there was one in the summer of 2001, which was a mirror image of something that Carl Sagan It's in the space in the early seventies.
	Oh, quite right.
	You mean an answer, an apparent answer to the message?
	Yeah, it's a remote response.
	That's right.
	And it showed basically, you know, it had, where we had our DNA, they had a three-strand DNA, we had a certain planetary configuration, they had a slightly different planetary configuration, we had a little human, there was a little smaller alien figure with a big head.
	That's right, yep.
	So, I had never thought of the grey alien abduction stuff as anything more than kooky, new age trash.
	But I decided that I had to begin to, like, think about it seriously.
	So I started reading all these accounts and reading these books about them and stuff.
	And then I began to have some, you know, kind of weird dream experiences that I felt like I was kind of pulling the energy of the whole grey thing towards me.
	And when I began to, you know, as I went deeper and deeper into thinking about it, I think there's almost no real evidence that they're extraterrestrial.
	I think there's more sense that they're kind of infraterrestrial, and kind of goblin-like, or demonic.
	And I think they're connected to these kind of prophecies.
	I mean, the Aztecs talked about, I think they're called the Tzitzilimente, these kind of sky demons, where you're supposed to descend at the transition from the fifth sun to the sixth sun, which would be this 2012 kind of transition.
	you know, kind of transition. And you know what seems to be my, it's hard to
	explain these things. You have to go beyond dualities in a way. Like, you know,
	they're in a sense, they're psychic projection. They're a kind of shadow
	projection of where we're at psychically.
	We've kind of created this model of these entities that are, you know, obsessed with technology and genetic reproduction and, you know, super, you know, advanced technological species, which kind of fits all of our kind of notions based on our kind of material technological state of consciousness and state of being.
	We probably tried to imagine ourselves in the far future, and there you are.
	Right, but actually I think that, and I'm much more interested in the idea that José Arguelles puts forth, that the future will be actually post-technological.
	That technology is a kind of bridging mechanism to get us from one state of consciousness to another.
	And I think that actually these entities are almost like cosmic bacteria, and they are Functioning on a level of consciousness very much like a different kind of virus or bacteria that are going to break down levels of densified consciousness that aren't ready for this transitional shift.
	That's quite a view of the grays.
	Now I'm going to jump, and then we're going to go to the phones, but I can't resist this question.
	Because it'll answer so much for so many people, I suppose.
	DMT, once you got past the terrifying stage, and you got to the joyful, incredible, hard-to-describe-with-any-words stage... Did I say joyful?
	Well, you didn't.
	Interesting.
	Anyway, go ahead.
	Is that accurate?
	Whatever, go ahead.
	Well, no, no, let me stop.
	If that's not accurate, then what were... Well, joyful was coming back into normal reality.
	And being like, ah, and I remember like, hugging this woman next to me, and just like, her hair and her perfume, and I was like, ah, thank God!
	So there wasn't anything all that joyful about the experience itself, at any point, even after the fright?
	Yeah, there was something joyful about it.
	I mean, it was the kind of a sense of complete conviction in these alternative realities.
	I did feel a kind of completion of a certain level of my understanding, that this otherness did completely exist in its own realm.
	I felt a lot of gratitude, actually, because I felt that the beings of that other reality are much more advanced than we are and are guiding us along.
	It seems like good news.
	David from Bullhead City, Arizona asks, Ask your guest, which was more enjoyable, DMT or sex?
	Um...
	Yeah, I mean, they're just kind of like, um...
	totally different voltages or something, you know?
	I guess I would answer that I wouldn't recommend trying them together.
	Alright, we'll take that answer.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Daniel Pinchback.
	Hello?
	Yes, hello.
	Oh, hi, this is Jeremy calling from Baton Rouge.
	I'm listening at 11.50 a.m.
	I have just been enthralled by this show so far.
	Absolutely.
	It's been fantastic.
	I had a comment that your guest was talking about synchronicity and psychic events after experiences with hallucinogenics.
	I've had those exact experiences a few times.
	I found that to be really amazing, first of all.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	For me, that's just become very commonplace, and many, many people I've spoken to.
	People talk about one phrase I heard, which I really liked, was the synchronicity drop.
	You know, that for a while, it's like you're kind of psychic, you know, voltage meters amped up, and these things are kind of, you know, things start flowing, synchronicities happen, and then you get a little too self-confident, or ego-involved in the whole thing, and the whole thing kind of collapses on you.
	Exactly.
	And I had another question.
	I'm from the South, obviously, and down here, method of choice is usually hoisin mushrooms.
	I was wondering, as far as research is concerned, where can I look for to find information about the original uses of that down here in this area?
	That's very interesting.
	You probably want to just go and talk to, you know, if there are any local indigenous people around, go and talk to them.
	I think actually that's something that I really feel is going to be important in this transition period is that, you know, people with really good intentions and kind of non-patronizing intentions and attitudes, you know, kind of go and recontact the indigenous people of America who are really holding a lot of knowledge and wisdom, you know, and I think would answer your question if you found the right people and approached them in the right frame of mind.
	How many But here I go again.
	Of those who, I don't know, do this, any of this, Daniel, what kind of percentage do you
	think do it the way you have prescribed it be done?
	In other words...
	I don't prescribe anything and I don't know anything about percentages.
	Well, you do in a way.
	I mean, you're saying, look, if you're going to do this, then go to a local native.
	Get instruction on how it's done from their understanding, which is a lot more than we've had any understanding of it.
	You seem to be suggesting that's important.
	I think it's important, I think that it, you know, I've also talked to people, especially in the Northwest, you know, people, I mean, in the Northwest you have the phenomenon of a lot of kind of hippie parents moved out there in the 60s, in kind of semi-communist situations, now you have a second, almost like a second and a half generation of kids who've been, you know, grown up with psychedelic experience, and in some cases I think that they're kind of naturally rediscovering Traditional ways, even without any contact with indigenous people.
	You know, they're kind of becoming more ceremonial about the way they're thinking about using these substances.
	And that seems positive.
	All right.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Daniel Pinchbeck.
	Hi.
	Hey, Art.
	Yes.
	BD in Las Vegas.
	Yes, sir.
	So, a couple things.
	I'd like to offer my overall anecdotal view of DMT.
	I've done it several times.
	I've done the combination orally, smoked it.
	The Grays, they're there, man.
	You know what?
	I know what it feels like to be a lab rat, you know?
	To have that gloved hand reaching down in a little glass aquarium, examining you.
	Not pretty.
	I don't have a good view of those guys anymore.
	It used to be kind of a funny thing, but the point I'd like to make is the government knows all about this stuff.
	Freedom of Information Act has disclosed, back in the 50s, Albert Hoffman, the man who is credited with bringing LSD to the planet Earth, Awakening Millions was a victim, or, well, he was almost victimized, but he was smart enough to find it out, but the CIA sent over a pseudoscientist after the rediscovery of the mushrooms by Gordon Watson through Harvard, and they were looking for the active ingredient of mushrooms.
	They finally isolated it.
	It was 4-phosphoxydimethyltryptamine.
	You know, eventually it was just a moot subject, because a few years later, dimethyltryptamine in the double N form was synthesized by, I believe, a guy named Sousa.
	And the C.I.A.' 's had their hands on it since the 50's.
	I mean, you know, that's when this whole alien thing really got rolling, you know?
	That's an interesting observation.
	You live close to Dreamland.
	Dreamland is the C.I.A.'s.
	It's a dream, man.
	Matrix.
	Can you say Matrix?
	So you think that's how the word Dreamland, the name Dreamland, came to be?
	That's an interesting observation.
	Daniel, what do you think our government may be doing?
	We know what they did years and years ago.
	They gave LSD to soldiers and did some other stuff.
	You know, it all stopped, or did it all stop?
	Well, it seems to me the government is now interested in other kinds of behavior control substances, such as military smart drugs.
	I mean, I actually tried a substance called Provigil, which is a kind of wakefulness smart drug substance.
	And, um, had a really negative reaction to it.
	Made me feel very aggressive for a long time.
	And apparently it's being given to a lot of kids in Iraq and Afghanistan.
	And, you know, maybe that accounts for some of the kind of erratic behavior stories that we're getting out of there.
	Being given to them by us?
	The military, you know, keeps you awake, keeps you up, keeps you, keeps you, uh, you know, clear.
	But I also want to say that, you know, I think that, um, um, Well, I don't know.
	There are a lot of directions I could go with this, but... Well, no, no.
	I'll settle for the one we're in right now.
	You're saying that our government is dispensing these drugs to... to... who?
	Well, that's a known... I mean, it's well known that this substance, I think it's called Provigil.
	Yes.
	It's also being used by students for, you know, exam grinding or whatever.
	Uh-huh.
	Okay, well, I don't know anything about it.
	Yeah, well, I'm sure there's a whole bunch of them.
	I mean, you know, and then...
	But are you saying that our government is giving it to our own troops?
	Yeah, as far as I know, they're using this compound, yeah.
	I know that pilots were given what amounts to speed on occasion if they need it.
	I've heard that story, and you're suggesting that ground troops are being given some sort of... Well, as far as I know, that's what I've read myself, but I think that the government You know, if you want to get into the kind of paranoid, spooky stuff, they're probably very interested in... Well, you know, I don't really like to go into that area so much anymore.
	But anyway, they're very interested in different behavior modification substances.
	But psychedelics, my guess is they've kind of closed the book on them.
	They're just not that interested.
	Because you can't really control anybody's behavior with psychedelics.
	Same reason they're illegal.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Daniel Pinchback.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	My name is Sam, listening on WTAM.
	I wanted to ask your guest a couple of questions.
	One, particularly about a drug that a lot of physicians know about, injectable ketamine.
	Also, I'd like to know about the validity of the experience of nitrous oxide and possibly hexafluoride.
	Hold on.
	Ketamine, the near-death drug, they call it, Daniel.
	Well, ketamine has become very, very popular.
	As psychedelics go, it's an animal tranquilizer, originally an anesthetic.
	And it's a very interesting visionary substance, but it unfortunately seems to be, can become psychologically addictive.
	And it seems to have a kind of a group of kind of entities attached to it who really like to get humans kind of into their reality and give them this sense, kind of inflated sense of enormous kind of power and potential.
	At the same time, it may be that these entities are not really beneficial for us, and it's more kind of like a parasitic situation.
	That would be some of my main thoughts about ketamine.
	I consider it's a substance that seems to leave people vulnerable and kind of spiritually weak.
	In that way, I see it as kind of the opposite to ayahuasca, which when it's used properly, I think helps people to really Go deeper into themselves and become spiritually stronger.
	How did you discover ayahuasca?
	You talk a lot about it now, so obviously... It's probably my favorite of all the substances.
	I sense that.
	I don't know, a friend of mine told me about it.
	I first did it in downtown New York.
	When I read about this and breaking open the hat, I did this sort of New Age ceremony where we all have to wear adult-dependent diapers and keep like a vomit bucket near us, in case the stuff came out.
	It sounds better and better.
	It's fairly noxious tasting, but you get used to it.
	Wait a minute now.
	Adult diaper, vomit bag nearby.
	Gee, what a stroll in the park that sounds like.
	Yeah, it can be pretty tough on the stomach.
	Especially the first time you take it.
	Although now my system is totally assimilated to it.
	I don't have any problem with it.
	You've toughened up, right?
	I've toughened up.
	But, um, it basically sort of sends you into a kind of waking dream state.
	Uh-huh.
	Very, very visionary.
	And, um, you know, people just have really, really wonderful experiences.
	Yeah.
	Well, apparently after they have, um, other problems.
	Well, I think it's, there's one thing I really like about the natural psychedelics.
	I kind of like the fact that they have, you know, I mean, mushrooms taste horrible, peyote is totally horrible, iboga was the most awful tasting thing I ever tried.
	You know, most of them cause stomach problems.
	You know, so it's kind of like a natural defense barrier.
	It's like you really have to want to have these experiences and go into these realms.
	Hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the hour, Daniel.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Great.
	This sounds like a ball of fun, doesn't it?
	Strap on the adult pens and have the vomit bag close by and get ready for, well, I don't know.
	It's a picture.
	In the middle of the night, only in the middle of the night, do you hear stuff like this.
	Coast to Coast AM at your service.
	Some velvet morning when I'm straight.
	I'm gonna open up your gate.
	you And maybe tell you about the fainter of
	And how she gave me life And how she made it in
	Some velvet morning when I was dreaming Flowers growing on a hill
	Dragonflies and daffodils Learn from us very much
	Look at us but do not touch Fedra is my name
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 7.
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	From coast to coast, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM, with Art Bell.
	From Phaedra, Sausalito, California.
	Hi, Art.
	Please ask your guest about the government's recent crackdown on Iphedra.
	M-A-H-U-A-N-G.
	How long is it?
	I and many friends have long been fans of Iphedra tea.
	Iphedra tea?
	Or is that Iphedra tea?
	The whole herb.
	Herb over coffee.
	And I've noticed it's very strong psychedelic effect.
	Signed, Iphedra.
	Sorry, couldn't resist.
	Alright, what was the name of the book that, your next book, Daniel?
	Uh, Two Thousand and One Nights.
	2012, The Return of Quetzalcoatl.
	And when will that be available?
	That will be available probably next summer.
	I'm writing a column for this magazine, Arthur, and I'm kind of throwing in ideas from that book on a bi-monthly basis.
	Okay, so people can look at that as well.
	So you consider yourself Kind of like an astronaut, in a way, only your journeys are to the center of the mind.
	And by the way, is that a fair expression?
	Journey to the center of the mind?
	Yeah, I like it.
	Do you?
	Okay, back to the lines.
	A lot of people want to talk to you.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Daniel Pinchback.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	How are you doing?
	Just fine.
	It is an honor to talk to you, Art.
	Thank you.
	I have a couple quick questions.
	The first one is, I was wondering if you and your guests have heard of the book, The Power of Now, by Eckhart Tolle.
	Daniel?
	I've heard of the book.
	The main idea of the book is it's all about consciousness, and I am a semi-experienced psychedelic drug user.
	I've used mushrooms, LSD, I've never used the DMT, but I imagine it's somewhat similar to the other hallucinogens that I've used.
	Well, don't forget the Depends and the Barf Bag.
	From what I've noticed, from my hallucinogen drug uses, is that Out of all of them, the peyote was, I'd say, probably the most powerful.
	And the best way I would describe peyote is probably like the first couple seconds of waking up from a dream state.
	And I found that I've been able to create that type of consciousness through presence.
	And I was wondering If you or anybody out there had experienced anything like a drug state or a hallucinogen-induced state, just without using drugs, through methods of just trying to become present, and also I was wondering... Okay, hold on.
	I think that's a great comment you're making.
	Uh, first of all, I would say that people have different allies.
	Like, you know, that whole cascade idea.
	Maybe peyote is your best substance.
	It's your particular ally.
	Somebody else would like something else.
	But, um, I think that really the point of taking substances is not just the experience of the substance.
	It's what you do with that experience afterwards.
	And how you integrate it into your life.
	And for me, it really is like a process that, you know, when I have these experiences, I try to Take more back with me.
	He did ask you if you've been able to produce the experiences naturally.
	Yeah, I would say so.
	For a while I got very interested in practicing Tibetan dream yoga.
	My dreams began to go wild and expand.
	Then I started having lucid dreaming and different hypnagogic visions.
	It seems like once you break open the head, open the doorway, Uh, you become more, you know, attuned to these other frequencies or other levels of vibration.
	Hence the name of your book, Breaking Open the Head.
	Exactly.
	But, um, and I think that's a positive thing.
	And I think that's, you know, for some people that kind of spooks them or freaks them out if they're not really ready for that.
	That's one reason why maybe people end up... I also have one quick question.
	Yes, go ahead.
	I'd like to ask everybody listening to your show right now to just close their eyes and just pause for one second and just ask themselves,
	what in this moment is lacking?
	And that is a question that Zen masters have asked their students for thousands of years
	to get themselves to just come into the moment and think.
	So if everybody could do that, that would be excellent.
	OK, well.
	Now.
	It's my show.
	I don't know.
	I think that you're making a good point, too, which is that, once again, it's like trying to become more present and more in the here and now.
	It's something that these psychedelic states really, really bring on, in a way, and it's something that our society kind of suppresses.
	If you think about the way people live in our society, they're sort of always West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Daniel Pinchback.
	of anxious and depressed about the past so they cannot prepare really settle into the present
	Hi.
	moment and if you read kind of buddhism was that urzo chan
	teachings it's really about becoming more more comfortable and more
	and more calm in the kind of uh... lucidity or the luminosity of the present
	moment that's definitely something that i feel that by a psychedelic
	experiences of helped me understand
	uh... was the rockies you're on the air with daniel pinterest high
	On the air?
	Yes, on the air.
	Okay, alright.
	Hi, you just hit the jackpot, Art.
	I was one of the first people to help coordinate getting Terrence on your station years ago.
	I'm the publisher of Psychedelic Illuminations.
	Hi, Daniel.
	Hey.
	How are you?
	I don't know if you've read my publication before, but I find it strange, and I'm glad that you're doing what you do here tonight, and getting the message out to people, because I find it strange that George's show doesn't have as much of this going on.
	I hope, Art, that maybe you can get with him to do that.
	I have close to a hundred speakers that, like Sasha Shogun, I'm sure you're familiar with Sasha's work.
	Well, it's a fascinating area.
	I'm sure George will get intrigued and explore this area.
	It's one of life's mysteries.
	So, sure.
	Yeah, I would love it, Art, if you can... I'll get in touch with you.
	I'll talk to Lex or something.
	Daniel, question and comment.
	About what we have is, you know, in this country, the legislation, everything scheduled, including marijuana, is Schedule 1 substance, which is ridiculous, in my opinion, with medical marijuana's abilities to be able to cure certain diseases.
	I just find it really hard to deal with when it comes to the way that they're treating The churches, the religious implications of this.
	We do have some moves going on now, and you taught just recently, from what I understand, approved that non-white or white people can actually get the same privileges as the Native American church, the Peoria Way Church of God.
	All right, we're about to run out of time, so the bottom line here is... Okay, so the comment then, Daniel, like the Oneida de Vegetal or the Sente Daime church, How do you see that happening in the future?
	Well, there is a case which the head of the United Vegetalists has taken, and he's won in the federal court, which would protect sacramental use of ayahuasca for the United Vegetalists, and maybe that would also transfer over to the Pentecost, because these religions are officially sanctioned religions in Brazil.
	They're also sanctioned in Europe and parts of Europe and Holland and so on, so they have UN protection.
	And, you know, under the Freedom of Religion Act and so on, it should be justifiable to have these practices here.
	We'll just have to wait and see what happens.
	It would seem that the court rulings are going in this direction, so I guess you would be hopeful?
	Yeah, I am hopeful.
	I think maybe this is just going to sneak through right now.
	International Line, you're on the air with Daniel Pinchback.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Hello?
	Yes, go ahead.
	Hi, Art?
	Yes.
	Okay, Daniel.
	Hi.
	Yeah, hi, how are you?
	I kind of got down here in a data point area.
	I go to it every day.
	And I had the exact same experience as you did.
	And, you know, like you said, it was the most terrifying thing in my life.
	And I think at that time I took some MDA or LSD, I don't remember, but it was definitely a present.
	Shaky doors and the whole thing and it manifested itself and it basically took over me for a while and it was a very, very, very shaky thing.
	Thank God I didn't have to get exercise.
	I was going to wonder what you thought about like a belladonna?
	That's more of an idiot with the feet.
	Uh-huh.
	Yeah, and there's a whole family of, well, I mean, there's Datora.
	Daladana was used in European witchcraft a lot.
	The problem is that, I mean, I never tried them.
	They sound, they're kind of dissociative.
	I mean, they send people into trips that last like three days.
	They really don't even know who they are for most of the time.
	And they have all these intense Tomorrow night I'm going to have Evelyn Paglini here.
	She's a witch.
	She's a really powerful witch.
	So I would be very cautious about exploring those substances.
	Daniel, tomorrow night I'm going to have Evelyn Paglini here.
	She's a witch. She's a really powerful witch.
	And witches, for one thing, they don't joke around.
	They firmly and absolutely believe that magic, so-called as we call it, is real.
	They also use in their ceremonies a great number of things.
	Various forms of incense and there are all kinds of ceremonies involved in witchcraft.
	Is that sort of an American version of a path?
	The same kind of path that can be followed Other ways, in other parts of the world?
	I suppose.
	I mean, personally, I find some of that all power to this woman and her powerful witchiness.
	I mean, that's all good, I guess, but I'm kind of more into the whole idea of the Taoist teachings.
	I mean, in the Tao, it talks about how occult abilities are just flowers of the Tao and the beginnings of foolishness, and it's kind of like Yes, but you saw some of the very same dark forces that they talk about.
	Right, which makes me even more, gives me an even deeper level of understanding of why there's not really much sense in eliciting that kind of stuff.
	Reality itself is magic.
	We're living in, the Buddhists interestingly called it Maya, the world of illusion.
	Interestingly that's the same name as the civilization of the classical Maya, who were very involved in magic and illusion.
	I think that what we need to do at this point is rather than kind of separating off into these kind of ceremonial, magical situations, is to invest deeper in the magic that is real reality.
	You know, if that makes any sense.
	I think so.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Daniel Pinchbeck.
	Hi.
	Hi, how are you?
	Terrific show.
	Thank you.
	Have you had occasion to take or use salvia divinorum, the sacred sage?
	I've used salvia a few times, yeah.
	What was your experience like?
	Well, the... I'm sorry to interrupt, but first, how did you adjust it?
	Did you use fresh leaves or dried?
	I used dried leaves with Penex extract, and I also took it as a liquid version.
	Ah, interesting.
	And, you know, the thing about salvia, salvia divinorum is a herb from the Mazatec Indians.
	And it's a very strange and interesting plant.
	It only grows in a handful of, they've only found it in a handful of shamanic gardens there.
	It doesn't produce seeds usually, it's a cult gem.
	Anyway, it's just everything about it is very magical and kind of wonderful.
	And the experience that one has when one takes it is kind of like just a kind of orthogonal Kind of experience of a different time and space, kind of coming at you from a different angle, and also often a sense of a strong presence.
	Often people describe it as a kind of feminine presence.
	Some people who have more visual hallucinations than I did see kind of like female presences in a garden or in a forest.
	It seems to be a substance that, you know, when people smoke it, you know, strong extractor, they often have very, like, once again kind of freak out DMT style experiences.
	Which is once again, like, nice as kind of psychic bungee cord jumping, but it also seems there's the potential for real healing and beneficial experiences, you know, if we were to learn a little bit more about how the Mazatecs treated the plant or, you know, one could say held the medicine.
	Very interesting.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, very interesting indeed.
	This whole thing is absolutely fascinating.
	I know that some people listening to this conversation won't get past the surface of
	some prejudice they have, and that's fine, but the others who are listening I think are
	getting a great deal out of it.
	Maybe one more.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Daniel Pinchbeck.
	Hello.
	Hey, Art.
	It's a pleasure to talk to you.
	And to you, sir.
	Not a lot of time.
	What's up?
	Okay.
	Well, for one thing, we don't allow the use of names on the air.
	Sorry about that.
	Anyway... Well, for one thing, we don't allow the use of names on the air.
	Sorry about that.
	Anyway, my reference was, y'all were talking about the Grays earlier?
	Yes.
	Kind of not to be off the subject, but let's just say this war on terrorism, I get a kick out of this president.
	You're off subjects there way off subject.
	Anyway, to make a long story short, they get off on these wars and everything.
	There's a bigger one brewing, and I always get a kick out of people talking about these greys and everything else.
	What bigger war is that?
	They're our best ally we can have.
	What bigger war are you talking about?
	Well, I've seen a lot of things in my time here.
	2012, let's just say I think it's going to come a lot sooner than that.
	Alright, well there's a lot of people just like that man, Daniel.
	They're convinced 2012 is the time, and you're saying it is.
	Right, but you know, I think I'm saying it with a slightly different emphasis, that really it's the time to become calm, and to become more attuned to your reality, and to take your consciousness more seriously.
	And to develop in that way, you know, rather than getting into paranoid states of, you know, this war and that war.
	I don't think those are going to serve us very well.
	I think it's about attaining a different level of consciousness.
	How many different, I mean, just a random color or two, and you were familiar with what they were talking about, so I'm sort of curious, how many different substances do you think you've tried?
	I don't know.
	I mean, I don't know.
	Honest answer?
	Yeah, maybe 20, 25.
	I mean, I'm not, you know, as psychedelic as I go, I'm not like a huge, you know, exploring machine.
	Nor are you a virgin, though.
	I mean, 20, 25, that's... Yeah, something like that.
	That's a whole lot more than most would take, considering that 90 some odd percent bail out after the first attempt.
	So, you know, you're down the road a little ways.
	Not quantity, it's quality.
	I understand.
	And reading what you've got to say about these experiences should be fascinating.
	So people should go, I guess, and get the book they can get right now, right?
	Sure.
	And I'm sure you're hoping they will go to Amazon.com And get breaking open the head.
	Why not?
	Yeah, why not?
	Alright, well listen, man, it really has been a pleasure having you here.
	Yeah, it's been a lot of fun.
	Excellent show, Daniel, and you just know we'll do it again.
	Cool.
	Alright?
	Yep, be good.
	Later.
	Daniel Pinchback.
	That was a trip, wasn't it?
	Okay, that'll do it for tonight.
	Tomorrow night we'll be back.
	Well, among other things, Evelyn Paglini will be here.
	She's really something.
	She is really something.
	And she'll talk a little bit about the connection between sex and the paranormal.

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