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Dec. 26, 2003 - Art Bell

02:50:53

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - The Importance of Mars - Richard C. Hoagland

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	The Mahi Desert and the great American Southwest.
	Good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the cosmos and all the time zones
	covered in the entire world, which is what we cover with this radio program, Coastal
	I'm Art Bell, filling in for George Norrie, who, I'm not sure, maybe time-traveling.
	Actually, I contacted the doctor in question, who's supposed to be taking George back, and I said, look, instead of the 50s or whatever it is George wanted, take him back to zero.
	All the way back to the time of Christ.
	See, that's what I really want to know about, so... Maybe we'll be seeing George again.
	Maybe not.
	Just kidding, folks.
	All right.
	Uh, the saucer last weekend.
	The saucer.
	Remember that?
	Too good to be true?
	I said so at the time?
	Well, sure enough.
	Uh, the good news is, it's there.
	It really is exactly where the photograph said it was.
	The bad news?
	It seems to be an elaborate construction by a member of the Church of the Subgenius, a gag mail-order quasi-religion that worships a clip art face named J.R.
	Bob Dobbs, for lack of a better explanation.
	The old abandoned saucer home, also known as a pleasure saucer.
	Where many a subgenius devival has no doubt been held can be seen in detail, and it gives a fine, you know, URL, but it's the same photograph we have.
	So it really is there.
	I knew it.
	Now this, this story broke, uh, just a little, uh, before airtime tonight.
	The headline is, it's a Reuters story, Officials Feared Las Vegas a Target.
	That's right.
	U.S.
	government officials, of course, were concerned some passengers boarding one of the Air France flights from Paris to L.A.
	that were cancelled earlier in the week for security reasons.
	Remember that?
	Might have intended to crash land it in, where else?
	Las Vegas.
	On Tuesday, a day after Air France cancelled six flights between Paris and L.A.
	at U.S.
	urging, officials said terrorists, May be seeking a repeat of the September 11, 2001 attacks that killed about 3,000 people.
	The Post said that U.S.
	officials noted a flight from Paris to L.A.
	would cross Hudson Bay and then eastern Canada before entering U.S.
	airspace about, we'll say, over Minnesota, then swing southwest toward Southern California.
	Since the routes flown by commercial airliners are closely monitored and deviations quickly checked, A hijacked flight from Paris to Los Angeles would have relatively few large populated centers to attack except the only big city on the route, which would be Las Vegas, which they would certainly consider a nice, attractive target.
	So there you have it.
	In world news, entire blocks of buildings lay crushed and survivors lined up blanket-wrapped bodies in the streets After a really devastating earthquake leveled nearly three quarters of the Iranian city of Bam, that's B-A-M, on Friday, killing at least 5,000 people, injuring 30,000 others.
	The quake also destroyed much of Bam's historic landmark, a giant medieval fortress complex of towers, domes, and walls.
	San Bernardino searchers slogging through waist-high muck found six people dead Friday and looked for at least ten others.
	Unfortunately, no doubt, mostly children missing after mudslides engulfed two camps in the San Bernardino Mountains in a terrifying torrent of soil, boulders, and tree trunks, all from the rains.
	It has been raining, of course, in California and in Nevada.
	We've had a lot of rain here.
	A U.S.
	agricultural official said Friday they have now quarantined the offspring of the slaughtered Holstein cow that tested positive for mad cow disease amid an intensifying search for the stricken cow's origins.
	The government was trying to reassure the public about the safety of the U.S.
	food supply, even as it confronts a wide ban now.
	Get this, 90% of those who had taken beef from the U.S.
	now no longer do.
	The Democrat candidate, Dean, is calling for aid to the beef industry.
	The Democratic presidential candidate assailed the Bush administration for failing to set up a livestock tracking system that he said could have averted the whole current mad cow scare.
	He supports federal aid to help the American beef industry weather the storm.
	Michael Jackson told 60 Minutes that he still thinks it's acceptable to sleep with children, and that he would, quote, slit my wrists, end quote, before he would hurt a child.
	And then, of course, a third attempt to confirm the survival of the European Mars lander failed Friday.
	It occurs, folks, when a NASA spacecraft swept over the planned touchdown site on the Red Planet without picking up any signal whatsoever, the tiny Beagle 2, designed to search for any signs of life on Mars, was to have landed shortly before 10 p.m.
	Eastern.
	It was supposed to open its, that would have been on Wednesday, was supposed to have opened, spread its solar wings, And should have called home within just a few hours.
	It, of course, did not do so.
	Now, in a moment, the whole question of the Little Beagle, the continuing U.S.
	mission and the entire Mars curse my phrase Mars curse
	We will review with Richard C. Hoagland my guest coming up in just a moment
	Well if it's Mars it's gotta be Richard C. Hoagland Over the years, he has, I guess, attached himself to Mars, in a way.
	He has.
	That's a fair assessment.
	He's an author.
	He's winner of the Angstrom Medal for Science.
	He's just on and on and on.
	Richard C., an author, of course.
	I think he may be involved in a TV or movie production of some kind right now.
	I'm sure he'll tell us.
	Here from the mountains of New Mexico, ...is a somewhat revived, because he had the flu, Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hey, Richard.
	Hi, there.
	Hello.
	Somewhat revived, yes.
	Are you better?
	Well, what happened is after the flu, I got hit by a cold.
	Oh, my.
	Which is ridiculous, you know, but it's nothing compared to the weeks I spent literally in bed.
	I have not been so sick, Art, for, like, ten years.
	Yes.
	I mean, I feel, really, for the people who come down with this, Especially the kids and their parents, because it is awful.
	In fact, it's so awful it makes you wonder if there's something not quite copacetic going on with this flu season.
	Oh, I've thought that for some time.
	It almost harkens back to 1918-1920, when a lot of people all over the world died, and they were talking a few days ago about a pandemic.
	Well, I can seriously empathize with that conversation because you really feel like you want to die when you have this.
	Well, here's one of the things that I don't understand.
	They have, you know, the shot you can have, the flu shot you can take.
	But if you look closely, they say, well, the flu shot does not affect this year's flu.
	Does that make sense?
	And yet they're still trying desperately to the point where they got some bogus stuff by mistake to import or do whatever they can to get more flu vaccine, which I guess, you know, so it's puzzling to me.
	If it doesn't affect this year's flu, then what are we doing?
	The world is making less and less sense, Art.
	All the time, yeah.
	All you have to do is to watch television, you know, watch the cable shows and whatever.
	My favorite, which I think perfectly encapsulates where we are with news and the world, is Keith Olbermann's Countdown.
	Have you seen it?
	No.
	Okay, it's on MSNBC.
	It's every night.
	It's a rapid-fire, five-point, counting-down-to-the-top story.
	Oh.
	And it's basically like a living cartoon.
	I mean, they mix, quote, serious news with Other stuff.
	Infotainment, I call it.
	Exactly.
	But you can't tell the difference.
	Well, even on the network news shows, it's hard to tell the difference anymore, Richard.
	Really.
	This is not the network of my friend Walter anymore.
	No, it isn't.
	All right, let's dig in.
	Now, Beagle, I mean, you know, I'm calling this a curse, Richard.
	Two-thirds or better of the stuff that we or anybody else sends to Mars gets Well, I would generally agree with you that something bizarre is going on.
	it's a extraterrestrial craft or see that's a flu hanging on folks
	uh... or something happens i mean it's a curse well i would generally agree with you something bizarre is
	going on in fact in our last conversation we talked about the two-thirds
	of all the missions that have gone to mars have gone kaput many many years ago when i was a fledgling reporter you
	know just a neophyte with with uh... cbs
	working for walter they sent me out to jp all or all the first time
	And...
	And I remember wandering into an office one afternoon, and I saw this blackboard.
	And it had a whole bunch of equations scribbled on it, and it had to do with the Mariner 6 and 7.
	at that time that we're about to arrive at Mars.
	This was a couple of days after the Apollo 11 landing.
	We'd all moved, all of us that had covered Apollo 11, which was incredible, up the street from Downey, where North American Rockwell had their headquarters, where I had literally built a solar system in an abandoned aircraft hangar that we could wander through.
	They moved us all up the street to JPL, to Pasadena, to cover the flybys of Mars, which were literally Only the second flyby that the United States had ever sent.
	The first one was Mariner 4 in 1965, and this was now Mariner 6 and 7 in 1969.
	So we get there, and no sooner had we arrived than there's a bulletin that they had lost contact with one of the spacecraft, of the two spacecraft, en route.
	Right.
	And we all rushed back to JPL because, you know, the guys had their pagers, and there were no cell phones in those days.
	It was literally little beeps, and then you went Found a phone somewhere.
	Sure.
	So we dashed back from La Cañada, which is right next door to Pasadena, maybe a mile away.
	We're having lunch.
	We rush into the press room and we, you know, see that one of our spacecraft is missing.
	Well, that afternoon I wanted up on the hill to go and do some interviews with somebody.
	And I happened to go by this office and there was this blackboard.
	And there was this whole list of things that might have gone wrong.
	As to why they were no longer listening to one of the two spacecraft.
	Right.
	And at the top of the list, in chalk, on the blackboard, was big letters, GGG.
	So of course, being young, I bit, and I said brightly, what's a GGG?
	Right.
	And the engineer standing at the blackboard turned and looked at me and he says, well, that's the Great Galactic Ghoul.
	Even then, Art, they had a name for this curse.
	The Great Galactic Ghoul?
	The Great Galactic Ghoul.
	And what they described to me was that they had noticed that a lot of the spacecraft that we, and the Russians at that time, the Soviet Union, had tried to send to Mars, even as early as 1969, never made it.
	And they, some wag, some, you know, clown had basically put down the idea that there was this big You know, galactic monster out there eating spacecraft headed for Mars.
	All this tongue-in-cheek, of course, but over the years, as more and more missions have gone from more and more countries, the Japanese are the latest to fall prey a couple, three weeks ago.
	You know, it's not much of a joke.
	No?
	Because when two-thirds of the very expensive hardware you send to one place goes poof, you've got to wonder what's going on now in our last conversation.
	You said you were voting for aliens.
	Yeah, given a choice between that and what else?
	Well, what else is sabotage?
	What else is humans here on earth who are desperately trying to keep As long as possible, the delay of the day.
	Yes, let us be clear.
	What's there?
	The great secret cabal.
	Yeah, but it's not a great cabal.
	It only has to be some guy with a screwdriver.
	It's got to be pretty great.
	I mean, there is NASA.
	There's the United States government.
	There is, you know, I mean, it's got to be pretty big, Richard, to control what happens to U.S.
	and Russian and Japanese spacecraft on the way to Mars.
	All it has to be is the right guy at the right place at the right time with a screwdriver.
	Because if you're dealing with civilian programs, let's take the US and the British on this latest mission, for example, where scientists would be loathe to even begin, prior to the concept of terrorism, to think that civilian spacecraft headed out there, where there's nothing of monetary value and nothing of social value, it's pure science, you know, no one would even Think of the idea of sabotage, therefore there's no security.
	Well, I think you and I both know there's more there than that.
	That's why we're sitting here talking.
	Anyway, well, you know, that's an exaggeration.
	I mean, what does one guy with a screwdriver do?
	Come on, there are layers of security.
	That's what you would think, wouldn't you?
	Yes.
	Except I know for a fact, reported to me from a very good source at Cape Canaveral, that during the launch of Mars Observer in 1992, Just before the launch, remember Hurricane Andrew?
	Yes.
	And how it barreled down on Florida?
	I do.
	Well, they thought it would sweep across Cape Canaveral, and they had this fragile spacecraft standing out there on the pad.
	So they brought it back to its hangar.
	I remember that, yes.
	And they, you know, put alternate power on and air conditioning and all that.
	Well, when the hurricane went south and missed Canaveral, they then unbuttoned all those precautions for the storm.
	And they found that lo and behold, somehow, someone had dumped a kitchen sink full of garbage on the spacecraft sitting in the nose cone on the top of the rocket.
	Pretty incredible.
	There were iron filings, newspapers, bits of glass, all kinds of bizarre junk, garbage.
	And there was no way that this stuff could get through the filters because the filters Our micro-sized screens and air hoses.
	Hard as that is.
	It's obvious that somebody tried to sabotage our first mission back to Mars.
	Granted.
	Since Viking.
	Granted.
	Ah, but I'm not done.
	When they took the spacecraft back to the clean rooms there at the Cape.
	Yes.
	To frantically clean it.
	Yes.
	And they had to disassemble parts of it to make sure that nothing got inside.
	Right.
	They then found that someone, somewhere, probably at JPL, had smeared Vaseline over the lens of the camera art.
	What?
	So there were two hits by two groups determined that we would never get any pictures of what's on Mars from that mission.
	All right, but... Then, as you know, when it was en route three days before it got to Mars in 1993, it disappeared.
	Yes, I recall that.
	And no one ever heard from it again.
	Okay, but that's bad news on one mission.
	I mean, my God, Richard, we're talking about Rishon.
	Where was the security, Art?
	From Russia, from the U.S.
	Where was the security?
	Beats the hell out of me.
	At JPL, it was sabotaged with Vaseline.
	At the Cape, during the hurricane.
	Garbage.
	The thing was sabotaged with garbage.
	And then it up and went poof out at Mars.
	So where was the security?
	The answer is, as we now know from this piddly-ass bunch of nitwits called Al-Qaeda, if you have a small but determined group that really have long-range plans and will carefully wait for years, if necessary, to put a key man in a key position as a janitor with security clearances... Yes.
	I mean, how many airlines now have reported, you know, stunning examples of people, employees, who are places in airports where they shouldn't be?
	Remember that kid who put the box cutters on the airplane months ago?
	Yes, of course.
	And then had to call the FBI and say, hey, by the way, there they are.
	So even in an era of incredible paranoia about security, there is no real security if you're determined.
	So the space program has stood naked because it was a civilian space program to begin with.
	But the very theory that would embody the final screwdriver action, essentially, you're trying to tell us, occurred.
	Would have to be gigantic in the sense of very high-level people having made a decision that, ooh, there's secret stuff on Mars, and we can't let the people see it.
	And so we're going to have to stop all these spacecraft going up from all these different places.
	And by nature, that would be a very high-level operation.
	At least you'd have to agree with that.
	I don't agree.
	I don't agree.
	I mean, that's like saying Al-Qaeda has to take over the U.S.
	government to do what it's doing.
	All it takes is a determined, small group.
	And the smaller the group, by the way, the better, because your security is higher.
	But this would be a high-level decision.
	I mean, the assumption is... No, no, no.
	You're talking about a competing group within the system that doesn't agree that we should now be Yes, but for them to be aware of what is there and by necessity they would have had to have kept that secret from us, for them to be aware of it in the first place means they're pretty highly placed because they had inside information about what's really on Mars!
	But why do you say they have to be highly placed in the NASA system?
	Because that information would only go to highly placed people, i.e.
	what's on Mars.
	You are assuming that all the information that we're currently getting from space is the first time we've ever had this information.
	If, in fact, it's not.
	If, in fact, there are ancient documents held in secret by secret societies, passed down from generation to generation to generation.
	That would be at a high level.
	Not necessarily.
	When you say high level, remember what Ed Mitchell said.
	He said there are two governments.
	There's the elected government, the constitutional government, then there's the other guys.
	Exactly, Richard.
	Who have taken control.
	Exactly, Richard.
	But the first group doesn't know the second group exists, or if they do, they don't know who they are.
	Okay, fine.
	Hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
	What I'm trying to drive through here is that if there is a second group, it can't be a bunch of janitors.
	It's gotta be people at a pretty high level.
	A, to know what's in the secret archives about what's actually on Mars, and B, to cobble together a plan to destroy so many spacecraft.
	That's where Richard and I differ, from the high desert, in the middle of the night, which is where we belong.
	This is Coast.
	rights viewed
	denancies huh
	hi the
	I just believe that tomorrow will never come I said tonight
	is whatI I'm living in the forest of the dreams.
	I know the night is not as it would seem.
	I must believe in something, so I'll make myself believe it.
	This night will never go.
	From Coaster Coast and worldwide on the internet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with guest host Art Bell.
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	code 775-727-1295.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
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	From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country Sprint Access number, pressing Option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
	And now, sitting in for George Norrie, Here is Art Bell.
	Here I am indeed.
	Richard C. Hoagland is my guest and actually we're at the very core of a very important part of this entire discussion and that is why our spacecraft are disappearing and who or what might be doing it.
	We'll get back to that in a moment.
	Richard, I remember you're telling me that NASA actually would do different things, including
	launch on certain dates, because they had information from the same old texts and Egyptian
	secret manuscripts that we talked about before, that NASA itself was arranging launches based
	on this ancient information.
	That is correct, is it not?
	Well, some people in the agency Yes.
	But the question is, how many of them are there, of the 20,000, and how high does it go?
	How high does it go?
	Well, I'm maintaining pretty high.
	It's got to go pretty high to make such a, have such information, A, and then act on it, B. Well, but it doesn't have to be, in other words, the sabotage we're talking about, the deliberate screwing up of missions, doesn't have to be from within NASA.
	In fact, most likely it's not.
	It's from an external source, either another agency, Or a foreign power, or a group of people like Al-Qaeda that just don't want us anywhere near Mars.
	Remember back during Pathfinder in 1997, when there was an amazing story coming out of Yemen?
	The Yemenese family, the men who had taken NASA to court?
	Because they claim that their documents prove that they owned Mars.
	I remember.
	And NASA was infringing.
	Yes, I recall.
	And, I mean, the story just dropped into a black hole and no one has followed up on it.
	So now you're suggesting it could even be Al-Qaeda or something.
	Well, when I say Al-Qaeda, I'm talking about a small group that are not governmental, that are simply very patient and know how to infiltrate.
	When I said the janitor, who better, during Andrew, When that hurricane was bearing down on the Cape, that a guy sweeping the floor to climb up that flight of stairs and dump a whole bunch of filings and shavings from his pocket, from the floor, onto that pristine spacecraft through that port.
	Well, this little group you're talking about would have to have a worldwide reach.
	That's what we're now worried about, isn't it?
	A group with a worldwide reach that's privately funded.
	Aren't we?
	It's called terrorism.
	It didn't have a name then.
	Now, to something more germane, not to beat a dead cow or a horse or a mad cow here, remember Ken Johnston?
	Yeah.
	The NASA astronaut that you had on, who by the way has now been appointed a JPL Solar System Ambassador.
	This is going to be very interesting to see what happens when he actually begins to ask some hard questions.
	But anyway, Ken a few years ago was on your show and he talked about his sojourn at Houston at the Manned Spacecraft Center.
	When the Apollo data was coming back from the moon.
	Yes.
	Remember how he told the story that he and Thornton Page, who was a prestigious astronomer, out of Wesleyan, a friend of mine, I knew Thornton, I worked with him, Thornton and he one night were previewing film for the next day's review by various mission specialists.
	And on the backside of the moon from Apollo 14, he saw on this film that he had loaded up on a projector A stunning, shining city of lights on the dark side of a crater in the shadow on the far side of the moon.
	And they both were stunned.
	He took the film back and put it back in the vault where you had to go through multiple security to sign it in and sign it out.
	Right.
	The next day when he went to sign it out to show the whole team, when they got to that part of the film, the city wasn't there.
	And Thornton Page, when he met him in the hall afterwards, Just smiled and said, I never saw anything.
	Now, Dr. Thornton Page, I found out years later, was a member of the Robertson Panel, which was the high-level CIA panel convened for several days in the 1950s and 53, I believe, to review all UFO cases in the United States back when UFOs were considered a major security problem because they were clogging up the communications channels and preventing NORAD and other agencies from seeing real threats from the Soviet Union.
	Yes.
	So, we have a member of the agency, the CIA, who sees something with a colleague of mine, and a friend of yours, and then the next day, it's missing!
	And Ken said he took the film out of the projector, looked at it with a microscope, and there wasn't a break, there wasn't a splice, they had literally duplicated, overnight, the whole film, and taken out the offending, stunning stuff.
	Could have been agency, it could have been NASA, it could have been a combination of people in both.
	The point is, it happened, and someone of unimpeachable integrity, who was there, who held high-level positions, vouches for that happening, and it's not the first time that he saw something weird, that he later began remembering and putting in context, that that should not have taken place.
	Well, you and I both agree that something, uh, what's the right word?
	Yes, I guess.
	Anomalous?
	Yes, I guess.
	Politically incorrect?
	Yes, all of that is going on.
	That something is being tampered with and something is woefully wrong.
	Let's go back to basics.
	Beagle 2, it just has not... Now, I may surprise you here, but I don't think Beagle 2 has fallen prey to this problem.
	I think Beagle 2, if in fact it is lost, And we don't know that yet.
	In fact, about half an hour ago when you were just coming on the air, there was an overflight by Mars Odyssey, the U.S.
	spacecraft, over the landing site of Beagle 2 there in Ascetis Planitia.
	And?
	And by 3.30 this morning Eastern Time, which is 1.30 our time, they are supposed to tell us if Odyssey heard Beagle 2's call sign.
	Okay, so we don't know yet.
	So we don't know yet.
	But we know they've had three previous attempts.
	All silent.
	All silent.
	Including with this huge radio telescope at Jodrell Bank in England.
	So the Beagle's not barking.
	The Beagle is not barking.
	Okay.
	So, why do I not think that it's fallen prey to sabotage?
	For one thing, look what it was trying to do.
	It was trying to land And for the first time to find evidence of microbes on Mars.
	Right.
	Not big stuff, not artifacts, not cities, not, you know, the really cool stuff that you and I think is there.
	I think, what was it, Arthur C., who said large life?
	Well, he was talking biology.
	He's thinking that we're bushes.
	Remember trees and stuff?
	Yes.
	At the South Pole, where we now know there's a heck of a lot of water.
	Well, that's large life.
	Now, the odds of dropping, you know, a little tiny thing the size of a barbecue pit down on a planet with a surface area equivalent to all of Earth, Mars has the same surface area as all the continents of Earth, and the little place it was going to land, which is this plane east of Sirius Major, was almost picked at random because of the vagaries of celestial mechanics.
	Remember, Beagle 2 was at, was a hitchhiker on Mars Express.
	So I had to kind of wind up on Mars where Mars Express was going.
	Yes.
	Not where it really wanted to go itself.
	So what Colin Pillinger, who was the scientist in charge, said a few days ago, he said, my bet is if we land anywhere on Mars, we have a better than 50-50 chance of finding life.
	Now he didn't mean big guys.
	He didn't mean, you know, Martian elephants or You know, the ruined, abandoned cities that we're talking about.
	Even microbial life would be... Well, that'd be fine.
	It'd be big news, wouldn't it?
	It would be huge news, and it would move the whole story further up the curve.
	Yes, sir.
	Remember, this is what the two MER missions, the two NASA rovers, the first of which is going to land again on your watch on the night of January 3rd, and the second one on January 24th, are designed to do.
	To find evidence of fossil life, or the conditions for fossil life, on Mars.
	Now what Pillinger's Beagle 2 could have done, if it survived, with its little robot arm, which they elegantly called a PAW, for Positional Adjustable Workbench.
	Somebody had to work really hard for that acronym.
	Anyway, it was going to extend its PAW, on which there were two stereo cameras, And a drill and some instrumentation designed to measure composition and really neat gadgets in an incredibly tiny space on this little arm that the Beagle clamshell would extend once it landed and survived on the surface.
	But it couldn't look any farther around itself physically.
	With something called a mole, by the way, that would burrow into the soil.
	Well, actually, though... And maybe a couple of feet!
	It might not matter.
	I mean, if there's microbial life on Mars, then probably it's common.
	If it's common, then you can find some bit of it just about anywhere.
	Well, that's the theory, and that's a very good idea.
	In other words, once you start... Once you find life there, presuming it's not contamination and I brought it with you, you know, then Everything is wide open because... Rosie, but by your own words.
	There you have it, Richard.
	If there's microbial life confirmed on Mars, then Pandora's box begins, the lid starts to come open.
	So why am I voting against conspiracy and sabotage for Beagle 2?
	I don't know, because it's so unlike you.
	Well, let me tell you why.
	Why?
	I mean, most of what I try to do and talk about has a reason.
	I'm trying to be logical here.
	Okay.
	And consistent.
	Alright.
	The U.S.
	missions that are going to land $800,000,000.
	Close to a billion.
	A lot of money.
	A gigabuck.
	The Mars Express orbiter mission, which successfully went into orbit on Christmas morning.
	$345,000,000.
	Close to half a gig.
	Alright?
	Beagle 2.
	Forty-five million dollars, close to half a gig, alright?
	$35,000,000.
	Beagle 2, thirty-five million dollars.
	Pocket change.
	And the problem is that landing is the hardest thing.
	You've got to get down to the atmosphere.
	Things have to happen in sequence.
	If you land wrong, if the airbag hits a rock, a sharp-edged, razor-blade-type rock, bang, there goes your spacecraft, splat, all over the surface.
	Sure.
	So for a little amount of money, they were trying to pull off a miracle.
	And I got to hand it to Colin Pillinger.
	He put together an incredible team.
	There's an incredible team spirit.
	I feel so for these people tonight.
	Because they're sitting there desperately hoping against hope that it's merely a communications problem or a computer problem, and it isn't that the spacecraft no longer exists.
	But the odds are, given how many spacecraft have failed with mucho bucks, that this trying to do it on a shoestring, something went wrong somewhere in that sequence of events in the seven minutes from entering the atmosphere to landing, and through no one's fault, It simply didn't work.
	That's the odd.
	But that is not consistent with the other things you've said.
	Because the money's not equal, Art.
	Even so, Richard, the reporting back of microbial life existing on Mars would be, I mean, gigantic news.
	And would lead to the rest of it.
	So why aren't you consistently saying this was sabotage?
	Because we're comparing apples and oranges.
	If we had a $800 million mission and it went splat, then I'd say, aha.
	But the fact is that these things are incredibly difficult.
	I mean, look how close Pathfinder came to disaster, and it was in a $150 million range.
	All right?
	That was, you know, gold is faster, better, cheaper.
	Now, I will totally admit that there is some logic to what you're saying.
	And if there is a cabal that wants to keep us from ever knowing that there's even a microbe alive on Mars, maybe they did something.
	There you have it.
	But that's a maybe.
	I'm betting on this particular instance that it was just the fates because of a small amount of money, relatively speaking.
	Now, one of the reasons I'm saying that is because the real threat here, the threat politically and scientifically, is not Beagle 2.
	It's Mars Express itself.
	Alright.
	Because as I've said, Mars Express carries a double whammy.
	Mars Express is ours, and it's in... No, no, no, it's the Europeans!
	I'm sorry, and it's in orbit, right?
	It's in orbit, safely.
	Yes.
	It literally got there safely.
	It's in perfect health.
	It carries among its instrument, you know, array, two instruments which can blow the doors off artifacts and former intelligence on Mars.
	Not microbes, But the big guys.
	One is the high-resolution stereo camera that we discussed last time, headed by Dr. Gerhard Neukom, who has said in print to the BBC, in response to mainly this audience art, he is going to re-image Sedonia.
	And we're going to make sure, right gang, that he does it the right way.
	We're going to send him more emails and lay out exactly when and how to take pictures that will stand up in court.
	The other surprise, the other amazing double whammy on the Mars Express mission is the MARSIS instrument, M-A-R-S-I-S, which is an acronym that stands basically for Mars Radar.
	Okay.
	For the first time in the history of the space program, mankind, the Europeans this time, have sent a real radar to Mars.
	And what it's going to do is to probe up to three miles beneath the surface looking at the whole globe over the next couple of years.
	So as then one would presume they would find very quickly the Martian cities.
	You got it.
	Now what I find stunning about this is that our previous U.S.
	spacecraft were supposed to carry this kind of radar and at the last minute After George Shultz went to the Soviet Union and had a little meeting with Shevardnadze, who was the foreign minister of the Soviet Union at that time, they pulled off the radar unit and they substituted the laser unit, which only bounced signals off the surface.
	Now, wait a minute.
	You said George Shultz shortly after meeting... He was Secretary of State under Ronald Reagan.
	Yes, yes, I recall.
	I well recall.
	Meeting with Shevardnadze, you said.
	Well, okay, that's... He was Foreign Secretary at that time.
	Okay, so the implication of your statement is that at that level, some information was exchanged, which resulted in that radar being removed.
	In a change of the instrument... Okay, Richard, that's what I call high level.
	Yeah, but that's not sabotage.
	That's a change of...
	And for what reason?
	Well, alright.
	If you have radar, you probe beneath the surface.
	Yeah, see, I'm trapping you, Richard.
	I'm going... Yes, I am.
	I'm going back to... That's a high level.
	That's a high level.
	If they had it removed, it was because they would have seen the Martian cities.
	That's right.
	Well, okay, that's...
	Too soon?
	Too soon.
	Remember, we have always said there seems to be a timetable, a clock.
	But by what you're saying, that puts Shultz and Chevronazi in the cabal, in a sense.
	Yeah, but it doesn't account for sabotage.
	Sabotage is different than planned time-release tasks.
	Well, there's all kinds of sabotage.
	I mean, if you remove the instrument that would prove... Remove the instrument that the scientists want.
	And put on one of a lesser caliber that can give them some data, but not the incriminating data.
	Right, right.
	All you're doing is delaying the inevitable.
	Right, but you might as well say it's a proverbial screwdriver.
	It's not!
	Well, it is.
	Apples and oranges, come on!
	It's policy!
	Yes, Richard, but same end effect.
	Yeah, but there's two different ways of doing things.
	One is from the inside, sophisticated, smooth, without seam.
	And the other is the monkey wrench.
	The monkey wrench is used when you don't have access to the levers of power.
	It can't affect the decision-making to carefully steer everybody away from the prize until the appropriate time.
	We're not going to call the sack here.
	What I'm simply saying is now, in 2003-2004, the Europeans have got a real radar on that spacecraft, which is Functioning perfectly in orbit tonight, and which will, if I can call up a very important email I got here, give us some pretty astonishing data.
	Okay?
	Well, if we suddenly get pictures of Martian cities just under the surface, don't you think that's going to shake everything up a little?
	More than a little.
	More than a little.
	That's why I'm saying I'm betting on Mars Express, and if we were dealing with sabotage that had taken out Beagle, it would have been a much more important target to take out Mars Express.
	Now, I don't know whether the Mars Express people have better security.
	I mean, Europeans tend to be a little more security conscious than we are.
	The mission is not finished yet.
	It's not finished yet.
	Absolutely right.
	So, when we come back from the break, I'm going to read you an email that came to me by way of a source out of JPL from a high-level engineer.
	Speaking to what this Mars's radar might do.
	An unimpeachable source?
	An unimpeachable source.
	Alright, Richard, hold tight.
	We are at the top of the hour.
	I don't know.
	I just don't know.
	Low-level, small group.
	Worldwide reach.
	Schultz, Shevardnadze.
	These are pretty high-level guys.
	I don't know.
	I think this whole thing is...
	If that's what it is, it has to be, by its very nature, at a very high level.
	But that's just me, from the high desert in the middle of the night, truckin' along like a freight train in the dark.
	This is Coast.
	I'm waiting for time to get ready to realize just what I have found.
	I have been on the hill of what I am.
	It's all clear to me now.
	My heart is on fire.
	My soul is like a wheel that's turning.
	I love you.
	Be it sight, sound, smell, or touch, there's something inside that we need so much.
	The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sand, or the strength of an oak when it moves deep in the ground.
	The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
	Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
	To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
	To have all these things in our memories soar.
	and they use them to help us to fight.
	It's a good thing that we have the right to be here.
	From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with guest host Art Bell.
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	at area code 775-727-1295.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-727-1292.
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	And now, sitting in for George Norrie, Here is Art Bell.
	Yes, indeed.
	Here I am.
	And this is... I want you to listen very closely to me right now, alright?
	Beginning tomorrow night, and then Wednesday night as well, I'm going to be here.
	And during that time period, we're going to do what we traditionally do in the time period between Christmas and the New Year, and that is make predictions.
	It's your opportunity to make a prediction about something you think, a major event, That will occur in the year 2004.
	Now listen to me, doggone it, listen to me.
	I want a good hit rate this year.
	And what that means is that you just can't pull this prediction from any old orifice.
	I want you to sit down, spend a little quiet time, let your mind go as blank as you can get it, and then reach way out into that area from which such things come, I guess.
	And really try and give me a good prediction.
	I want the hit rate way up this year and so it requires your cooperation.
	We'll begin taking the predictions which are duly assigned and numbered and recorded and kept for a year in the Bell Family Vault.
	So this year I want your cooperation.
	That means that you really take the time before you make your call, whether it's on Sunday or next Wednesday as the year and calendar flips, to make your prediction a good one.
	A thoughtful one.
	One that you plucked from that special area that such predictions come from.
	And if you really spend a little time on it, we'll get some good predictions.
	I want a great hit rate.
	It's going to be the best year we've ever had.
	but it all depends on you once again richard c hogan and we were about to be uh...
	avail the contents of this email
	Richard?
	Well, before we get to that, I got a call during the break.
	Oh, good.
	Well, I got a fast blast I want to talk to you about then.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Um, you know, in case anybody thinks these arguments are trivial and not meaningful, you ought to mind.
	Demetris from Queens, New York says, In case building rubbles or Martian civilization exists on Mars, how is this going to affect our lives, our beliefs here on Earth?
	Is it better they sabotage and hide the truth from us?
	So, you know, that's really a good question, Richard.
	This great argument we're having about whether it's a cabal, whether it's an accident, whether it's just bad luck with regard to Mars and what you and I think is on Mars, buried Martian cities, I mean, it's not a small matter for humanity.
	If there are buried cities on Mars, that's a really big matter for humanity, isn't it?
	Well, it's not only a big matter, but it's something that I really wanted to get into tonight and do it, you know, with enough time because we've got plenty of time tonight.
	We do.
	I want to talk in a few minutes exactly to that question because, you know, where the rubber meets the road is these are not decisions being made in a vacuum.
	These are not people who are pulling strings and keeping us from knowing things or knowing it Until a certain time, because they have nothing better to do.
	There's a strategy here.
	There's a political agenda.
	And there has been, apparently since the dawn of the space program.
	And it goes back to your favorite document, Art, the Brookings Report.
	Right.
	And, you know, when I say that the Beagle 2 may just have fallen prey to not enough money, it's not that I don't believe it could have been sabotaged.
	I'm looking at the one that they should have aimed for, Which is the one that is going to give us some extraordinary information if the system is honest and if the Europeans are as independent as they appear to be these days.
	Now, while I was on the break, while we were in news, I had a call from one of our very important sources in Washington, who has given us some very important information over the years, and I won't bore you with all the hits that he has been right about, but this is one of the guys, and he gave me two pieces of information.
	He said, he says, use with art, he said, the metaphor of the vice.
	He said, this has worked from both ends, the policy end and the terrorist end.
	And what they can achieve with legitimate policy decisions, a la the Shultz-Chevronazi meeting, where the instrument was quietly changed out and nobody who was not supposed to know knew anything.
	It was seamless.
	What they can achieve with that, They then hire a bunch of thugs to do the hard way with plausible deniability.
	The end result is that we don't know what's out there.
	NASA, most of NASA, doesn't know what's out there.
	The people working on these missions, most of them, don't know what's out there until someone decides it's the appropriate time.
	Now, let me tell you the item number two that he told me.
	Remember, this is a guy who's very well connected.
	Yes.
	He says that Mars Odyssey did not hear anything tonight, an hour ago.
	And that's about an hour and 15 minutes before the rest of the country is going to hear it.
	So that probably means then that Beagle's four paws to the sky.
	It's four paws to the sky.
	It is not there.
	Something in that very complex chain of events from entry to landing over those seven minutes.
	All it would take is one little relay One little computer glitch, one little latch that doesn't open on time, you know, these things are infernally complicated.
	And again, if you have a lot of money to throw, you know, at these things, you increase your odds of success because you hire more people, you do more testing, you think of more unthinkable things.
	I mean, there were so many parts of this they didn't even have an opportunity to test, that they've admitted they didn't have the money or the time to test.
	So, you know, now it's conceivable, it's certainly more than conceivable, that someone doesn't want us to know there are microbes on Mars.
	But, when we look at the trend curve, the official trend curve, we have gone, since 1997, inexorably, mission by mission by mission, closer to the admission That there is some kind of life currently on Mars.
	Well, I certainly admit there's been movement, but... And would you like to plot the data points, or do you want me to do it?
	Well, no, go ahead.
	Okay, well, for instance, we start out with a totally sterile Mars, and then we suddenly say, well, maybe there could have been water.
	Yeah.
	Maybe there could have been a lot of water.
	Yeah.
	Then we get Odyssey in orbit, we get the GRS instrument, and my God, pole to pole, It's dripping with water.
	Of course, it's frozen.
	Then, of course, remember, we published a paper a couple years ago claiming that at the equator... By the way, Richard, is all the reported water on Mars, and I went through the maps with you, as did many in the audience, is all of that holding up because the water on the moon story kind of collapsed.
	It comes and goes, doesn't it?
	Yes, it does.
	And so I'm wondering... No, the water on Mars is not only holding up, but there's new news.
	I mean, this is like drip, drip, drip.
	Unintended.
	Well, drip some on me.
	Okay.
	Well, we had said in our Mars paper, our title paper, which is on the Enterprise Mission website for those who want to read it, that when Odyssey got there, it would find water not merely at the poles and down at some latitude, but it would find Two clusters of hydrogen, or ice, at the equator, 180 degrees apart.
	And we based that prediction on these weird, dark stains.
	Yeah, and you hit it on the mark.
	I mean, you did.
	I give you that, you hit it.
	Totally, exactly.
	That's full science.
	Yep, you did it.
	No Ouija board here, that's science.
	You predicted they would find the water and they found it.
	I want to credit Efren Palermo and Jill England For doing a yeoman service and doing all those maps and helping us make that very specific prediction.
	Now the three of us have said, the four of us actually, because Mike Bearer is in the mix here too, have said that those dark stains are water.
	In fact, I published on Enterprise in the summer of 2000 the first claim, and we sent press releases all over the world, every major news agency on the planet, that we had seen evidence of liquid water stains Stunning silence from everybody, including NASA.
	Well, a year or so ago, papers started appearing at these various conferences saying, well, these things might not be avalanches after all.
	They could be water.
	No, you hit it.
	Well, with that trend curve, remember, if you don't have water, you can't have life.
	That's right.
	So the next data point... You also can't make fuel and you can't do a lot of things.
	Let's just look at the life angle for a second here.
	Without water, you ain't got life.
	We now know that Mars is a planet awash in water.
	Right.
	Most of it is frozen.
	But near the equator, at these two places, these poles apart places, it appears to be wet.
	The data shows that during the summer, when the temperatures are above the freezing point, you get these dark stains.
	And when the temperature goes down, the stains disappear.
	Yes.
	They behave like liquid water.
	Well, there's so much water now available in these niches that the next data point that we would predict for either the NASA missions arriving in a few days or the Beagle 2 mission, which was supposed to arrive Christmas morning, is that they would find microbes.
	In fact, Pillinger was so confident that he was going to find evidence of living microbes, it's almost like he already had a heads up from somewhere That it was a foregone conclusion that he just got his spacecraft down there safely?
	So, I see officially the tidal wave here, mixing our metaphors madly, is that the next data point has got to be we either confirm fossil evidence of former microbes, that's with the mirror missions, or current microbes, which would have been Beagle 2.
	Now, the huge leap, of course, is what we're expecting, which is At some point, we've got to get pregnant with ruins, artifacts, which brings me to this remarkable memo coming out of JPL.
	Let me give you a little background.
	This came to me from a source, and I don't have permission to use this source's name.
	It's not the same source that just called me, by the way.
	It's another source.
	You can't do this without sources, folks.
	Anyway, and I don't have permission to quote the guy's name from JPL, but I can give you where he works.
	Inside JPL.
	Inside JPL.
	He is working for the MRO project.
	He is a senior engineer on the MRO project.
	Okay.
	Which is the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.
	Which is the next NASA mission, unmanned mission, going into orbit around Mars in 2005.
	And it will be able to photograph in color and in stereo art objects five inches across.
	And what say your source?
	This source says, and I'm quoting now this email directly, since, and this was sent on the 21st of December, since Mars Express with Marsis is going to be arriving in four days, I suggest you follow the progress of Marsis more intently than any of the other experiments, including MER.
	That's the two NASA rover missions.
	This is a NASA guy saying, basically, ignore the rover missions.
	Focus on the Europeans.
	Focus on the Mars's radar.
	He says, he goes on to say, Beagle 2, if it works, won't tell us nearly as much as a good ground-penetrating radar.
	Remember how the Sears C, that's S-I-R-C, L-band radar that was on the shuttle, Earth orbit, Found ancient buried Roman, question mark, roads that have been covered with thick sand in the Sahara?
	That's right, yes.
	Marses can possibly reveal subsurface features equally as exciting.
	He says, to be honest I am over my head with work right now preparing for a hardware delivery to the MRO project.
	This consumes too much of my time to get involved in extended outreach efforts.
	In that respect, I'm glad I have nothing to do with the MER project.
	I regret I can't help you at this time.
	Best of luck.
	Sign.
	So and so.
	All right.
	Well, so that would seem to be... I'll follow this particular... Follow the radar.
	OK, fine.
	If this mission should succeed and should get such photographs of underground cities that you and I both believe are there, then Presumably somebody at some, I would say, high level has made a decision that it's time for the world to find out that there was a civilization on Mars, or it wouldn't be happening.
	That's one excellent model, and that's the model I would have gone for up until the last year, year and a half.
	Really?
	So now... The model that I'm looking at now, the equally attractive idea, theory, Is that because of what this administration has done in Iraq and other places, and the resultant reaction from Europe, which has been so scathing, and how this administration has thumbed its nose, you know, on the latest thing, of course, is these contracts, you know, to rebuild Iraq.
	Yes.
	Basically, we've told those guys, you know, sorry, you're out of luck.
	You weren't with us when we went in.
	You're not going to be with us on the gravy train.
	The wild card here is, are the Europeans really pissed off enough to get off the plan and simply throw their own monkey wrench politically into the works and make public, regardless of what the plan is, what they find on Mars?
	and that's the possibility that i think at least
	fifty-fifty mhm
	all right uh...
	so they would be uh... angry and angry enough so that they
	would you like to have
	go ahead and blow the lid off this entire thing Well, we have data.
	Remember, I try not, Art, and keep holding my feet to the fire, because it's very important you do.
	I try to back up things I say.
	It's sometimes very hard in the political realm.
	I mean, scientifically, this is duck soup.
	The title model, I have no doubt in my mind now, That we're 99% right with the title model.
	The politics are so much more difficult, because in politics, they can always change their mind.
	Tomorrow, something else is going to happen, so they decide, oh no, we're going to do this, as opposed to that.
	And you're not privy to 99.99% of what's going on in the back rooms.
	Like, what happened when Baker really went to Germany, to France, and to Russia about the reparation of the forgiveness of debts to Iraq?
	We don't know!
	You have no idea what the quid pro quo is and whether it's changed these politics, but let me tell you why I think maybe the Europeans have the bit in their teeth and they want to break cover and come out with some real honest-to-God data.
	It goes back to Professor Newcomb.
	When he gave his quote to the BBC and said that he had received emails from all over the world, that means this audience, guys and gals, it means you.
	And that these people had told him NASA is lying about Mars.
	And he actually repeated that.
	And he repeated that.
	He did not have to say that, as you and I agreed the other night.
	And I take that as a signal, both to us and to the administration, that there are surprises coming down the road when this spacecraft goes into operation in a couple of weeks.
	Okay.
	Let's imagine for a moment that it does turn up the cities.
	Yes.
	Oh, what a delicious idea!
	What sort of societal reaction would you expect to that?
	Depends on how it is handled.
	Depends on how it is put out there.
	Depends who comes on board officially as authority figures And what they say.
	Well, you can't be too gentle about it.
	I mean, if the High European Space Authority says, Look!
	Cities!
	Underground!
	Ruins!
	No, no, no.
	They're not going to say it that way.
	What I would do if I were in their shoes, and this is what this memo from JPL basically is saying.
	Items of great geologic interest.
	Well, no.
	They'll call them anomalies.
	Anomalies, yes.
	And they'll let us discuss it.
	They'll let us come on coast and on MSNBC where I've been invited and who knows where.
	They'll let the internet crowd have a field day with it.
	There will be long, careful deliberation.
	There will be a year or two of analysis, you know, of these anomalies.
	And we will have basically, you know, broken the ground and gotten people used to the idea of the grassroots.
	That we're looking at maybe what we think we're looking at.
	So you think it'll be a gentle... It'll have to, it has to be.
	All this has to be handled gently because Brookings was right.
	If you don't do this properly, you can come a cropper.
	Alright, I'll hold it right there.
	It's a totally non-trivial argument.
	The whole Brookings report is non-trivial and I think society would go berserk.
	But you know, that's just me.
	From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm not here, there's a blue sign, we saw a circus today When I get cold, my whole life spins into a frenzy
	He's got this dream about buying some land He's gonna give up the booze and the one night stands
	And then he'll settle down, it's a quiet little town And forget about everything
	But you know he'll always keep moving You know he's never gonna stop moving
	Cause he's rolling, he's the Rolling Stones When you wake up, it's a new morning
	From coast to coast, and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with guest host Art Bell.
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Behem, from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country screen access number.
	Larry from Akron, Ohio says, you know, it makes no difference what's on Mars.
	I still have to go to work tomorrow.
	And now, sitting in for George Norris, here is Art Bell.
	Larry from Akron, Ohio says, you know, it makes no difference what's on Mars.
	I still have to go to work tomorrow.
	I still have to pay my bills.
	And Larry's right, of course, but he may not be thinking this all the way through.
	And that's really where we need to get to in this discussion, about why this is not
	just important, but it's incredibly important for all of us, all of us who are curious about
	our own origins and why we're here and how we got here and what we're supposed to be
	doing and, you know, the big unanswered questions.
	Thank you.
	So, Richard, there's Larry over there in Akron who's saying, look, makes no difference.
	Don't care what's on Mars.
	Have to go to work tomorrow.
	Have to pay my bills.
	Don't care what's on Mars.
	Why should he care?
	Why should Larry care?
	Why is it important?
	That's really the center question amidst all this that we've got to answer, I think.
	Well, all right.
	Let me give him a trivial answer.
	We'll get to the big stuff in a few minutes.
	Sure.
	The trivial answer is, how did he communicate with you?
	Please send me a computer message.
	Ah, I wonder where his computer came from.
	Without the space program, he wouldn't have a computer.
	He would have a dial-up telephone.
	He would be charged probably $50 to call Europe.
	He'd be paying $12, $18, $20 to call California, if he ever calls California.
	In other words, the space program has made the society so much richer And everybody out there who bought their, you know, loved ones and relatives and brothers and sisters and grandmothers and grandfathers all these high-tech toys for Christmas.
	You wouldn't have had all that stuff if it weren't for John Kennedy saying, we're going to the moon.
	What are you talking about?
	Everybody knows Al Gore invented the... Anyway, okay, fine.
	So that's why we need a space program.
	That's one of the reasons.
	But that's not the answer to the question.
	It's not the core reason.
	And we will get to that.
	What I want to do is I want to get to some data.
	I sent you some images earlier.
	Oh, yes.
	All right.
	And I think it's probably time to go and look at a few of them.
	All right.
	Sure.
	Fine.
	Because we have we have remarkable information now that is waiting to be verified.
	Alright, picture number one is sunrise, and these are all at coastcoastam.com, right on the website there.
	Can't miss them.
	Picture number one, and they're numbered.
	Sunrise color image confirms high reflectivity and original geometry of eastern surface of the face.
	The face on Mars.
	Now, this is a picture revisited.
	We had this on before, and it is remarkable in that the sun is not at an angle to be illuminating what you're seeing On the one side of the face on Mars.
	I mean, it is glowing.
	There's no question about it.
	There it is, folks.
	Go take a look for yourself.
	And look at the geometry of the face.
	Yes.
	That geometry is not the way mesas work.
	Not the way rocks, you know, sedimentary rocks pile up.
	Not the way geology splits things.
	This is anomalous in two ways.
	It's incredibly reflective before the sun is up, and it's incredibly geometric.
	In other words, to me, this is the smoking gun image art I have been working toward for twenty-five years.
	Why is it a smoking gun?
	What is it about the reflectivity of this?
	Certainly odd, I'll give you, without the sun being appropriately high to be doing this.
	And even if it was, it wouldn't reflect like this.
	No.
	So, what accounts for this amount of reflectivity?
	Well, unless the thing was solid obsidian, which is, of course, a volcanic extrusion, and there's no evidence of volcanic activity in the Cydonia region, you can talk to our geologist if you don't believe that, this thing looks like it's burnished metal.
	Now, what things that look statue-like also glow like burnished metal?
	Artificial, burnished metal statues.
	In other words, this is an extraordinary piece of evidence.
	But as with all good science, we need confirmation.
	So what we have asked Dr. Newcomb, who is running that camera now in orbit around Mars, as I speak right now, there's this amazing color stereo camera capable of giving us a color image ten times better, ten times closer, and in stereo, than this picture that you're seeing on the website.
	And that's what's so important.
	Now, if you go to picture number two, this is a larger chunk of the whole image art.
	Okay.
	At the top you see the face there, and you see on the lower right there's something that's very bright and glowing.
	Yes, I do.
	What's that?
	What is it?
	We don't know.
	We've been calling it a Mesa all these years, but in fact, maybe it's not a Mesa.
	Do we know Richard, a couple of things.
	What angle was the sun at in this?
	90.3 degrees.
	Which would mean it's not over the horizon.
	Oh, 90 degrees would be on the horizon.
	Okay.
	90.3 is below the horizon.
	Is below the horizon.
	Okay.
	Do we know the relative altitude of that side of the face and this other glowing object?
	Reference the other objects in the frame.
	Yeah, they're all roughly the same height.
	Things at Cydonia are very shallow.
	So there's no way in hell we should be getting this additional reflectivity unless there was a greater altitude involved in those objects.
	Well, it's not greater altitude, it's greater reflectivity.
	I understand, but no, I meant altitude in terms of actually seeing over the horizon.
	That's right.
	Now, the object in the bottom left is the one that we're going to focus on in the next couple of minutes.
	That is this famed DNM pyramid that I named after DiPietro Molinar many years ago.
	Oh yes, uh-huh.
	The five-sided pyramid?
	Yes.
	Look at how incredibly bright that side is.
	Just shining like crazy.
	Yeah.
	Now, if you go to the next picture, number three, this is a wide shot prepared by Dr. Malin, oddly enough, from one of his surveyor Wide-angle camera shots.
	And it shows the basic interesting stuff we've identified in Cydonia.
	The face, you can see it there.
	The cliff, the tholus, the city with the pyramids.
	And then down below the face, you see this DNM pyramid.
	Notice how regular it looks.
	Notice how geometric it looks.
	It does, yes.
	So, then we go to the next picture.
	This is now an image from Mars Odyssey.
	That was taken, oh, a couple years ago, maybe a year and a half ago.
	And it demonstrated that there was all kinds of symmetries in this DNM pyramid.
	By the way, the scale, the short sides are about a mile long, and the long side is almost two miles long, not counting the red extension up above, which shows now there's a platform this thing is sitting on.
	And the inset in the lower left corner is from the Viking data back in 76, transformed into a three-dimensional image by Dr. Mark Carlotto with his Shape from Shading technology, which is the same technology which NASA uses and the DoD uses and all that.
	So you can see this thing is a pyramid-looking thing, but it's enormous!
	And I've noted with a couple of arrows there the corresponding features, that weird hole on the southeast edge, That appears to go inside.
	Anyway, if you go to the next picture, this is now a sequence of three images that was given to us a few weeks ago by Dr. Malin with the Mars Surveyor camera.
	The image resolution here is about one and a half meters per pixel.
	And the three strips were put together by Keith Laney.
	Remember Keith Laney?
	Sure.
	Who is the guy who does a lot of the Mars work for NASA Ames?
	Yes, the center strip looks like it's in some different relief than the other two.
	Well, they're different exposures.
	That's why you're getting slightly different values.
	All right, well you can clearly see the size of the center strip.
	Oh yeah, and what's important about the center strip, in fact you actually owned in on it, this thing has five Or six buttresses, depending on how you count them.
	And they look very, very geometric.
	The one on the bottom right, the one in the center photo strip?
	Yes.
	We're going to show you an enlargement now that was made by Steve Troy and some graphics that were done over the last couple of days.
	Drawings that basically just take that center strip And expand it so you can see the detail around this buttress.
	Gotcha.
	And you see the yellow overlays?
	I do.
	Those correspond to the graphics that he has done on the left and the right.
	And at the very top image is just the photo enlarged.
	Then what he's done is to overlay a drawing of the detail in the photo.
	And as you go down progressively each frame, he fades the under photo Deeper and deeper so that you're seeing more and more of his artistic graphic representations.
	Now what's astonishing to me is how damn artificial this looks.
	It has a rectilinear pattern, it's got coherent structures, and it's got what looked for all the world like freeways going into that buttress.
	And there appears to be a bridge over... Actually, they do look that way.
	Now, Malin said that his two criteria... I mean, this was years ago in the Washington Post, after we held our first press conference in 1988.
	He told the Washington Post that he would only accept the idea of artificiality on Mars if he, one, could see repeating rectilinear geometry, and two, he could see the roads.
	You're selling me what's already sold, Richard.
	I firmly believe there are artificial things on Mars.
	I believe I've seen the cities beneath Mars.
	The water is there.
	I believe all this, Richard.
	You don't need to show me the geometry.
	Well, but there are people in the audience maybe who have not had a chance to see this.
	Perhaps so.
	And what I need to tell people is that in the next few days we're going to put up a very detailed analysis by Keith Laney and myself and Steve I've been groping in my mind for what it reminds me of.
	and you'll have a lot of opportunity to peruse at your leisure
	comparing these images, comparing terrestrial analogs. For instance,
	the structure around this buttress, I've been groping in my mind for what it reminds me of.
	It reminds me of a lot of the rectilinearities around the Great Pyramid
	on the satellite imagery looking down on Egypt.
	Well, as interesting as this is, Richard, it's nowhere near the level of the
	picture of the cities.
	You might as well put that up tonight if you really wanted to convince people.
	You mean the infrared visual comparison?
	Sure.
	Well, I didn't for a very specific reason, because there's such contention about that image.
	That's one of the reasons why we have gone to Dr. Newcomb, because according to Jim Garvin, remember the Mars guy at NASA headquarters?
	Yes.
	He said a year and a half ago that Newcomb's camera We'll be able to take new infrared imagery of Cydonia to compare with the visual imagery.
	Right.
	And we'll be able to tell us if what we saw, what was leaked to us on that famous image, is in fact real.
	So, let's keep that in our gray box for the time being until we get confirmation.
	Science is always about confirmation, which is why it's so politically important that this audience keep emailing Dr. Newcomb And reminding him that this is a mystery whose time has come.
	Okay.
	All right.
	The next photograph... Well, the next photograph is one that I asked Steve to do specifically for tonight.
	This is the apex of the DNM.
	This is the highest resolution Malin has given us so far.
	And if you scroll, I think in the presentation on the website, it's from left to right?
	Yes.
	It's horizontal as opposed to vertical?
	Yes.
	All right, if you start, and I don't know which, because I haven't been able to get into the website, you know, my little bandwidth here doesn't allow me, is the raw image on the left or right?
	Well, are you referring to, you don't know the photograph number, huh?
	It's number 12, I believe.
	No, I'm sorry, it's not number 12, it would be number 7.
	Well, okay, 7.
	7 is a graph, Richard.
	De Palma's spinning ball experiment.
	No, no, no, that is number 6.
	No, Richard, it's number 7.
	No, the image I'm talking about, which is a close-up of the DNM, should have been number 7.
	So I don't know where he's put it now.
	Let's see if we're okay through number 6.
	Number 6 had the yellow squares, the one we just discussed.
	And then when you go to number 7, as I just mentioned to you, it is a spinning ball.
	No, that's for the next discussion we're going to have.
	So the close-up that I was going to show you, we can't show you today.
	There are a total of 11 photographs in there.
	There should have been 12.
	Okay.
	Have you refreshed your screen?
	I'll do it right now.
	Because I sent him another one, that may be our problem.
	We need to refresh.
	Okay, yes, you are correct.
	I needed to refresh.
	Let's see what number 7 brings us now.
	Ah, yes.
	It's R1102437, DNM top left.
	That's the close-up of the top of the DNM.
	Okay, it's been corrected.
	Okay, go ahead.
	Now, is the real image on the left or the right?
	It would appear to be the left.
	Excellent.
	So if you simply scroll to your right, You'll see successive drawings that Steve has done of the detail that we see on the apex of this structure.
	Correct.
	Now, back in 1987, when I first published Monuments, and I was doing my initial analysis, by the way, that's the Monuments of Mars, the City on the Edge of Forever, the book that I always forget to plug, which is the chronology of this independent investigation going back now 20-some years.
	Anyway, in that first edition, in 1987, I predicted that this structure, this incredible five-sided structure, was in fact an arcology, an enclosed artificial building of stupendous size built on Mars because that was appropriate to the Mars environment when whoever did this was there doing it.
	It is now taken till 2003 for Dr. Malin to release to us from Surveyor An image with enough resolution, as you can see here, to verify that in fact on this structure we see myriad replicating cell-like features looking for all the world like the exposed interior of a multiple honeycombed-like arcology on Mars.
	Okay.
	And Nukem in color at the right phase angle and in stereo We'll be able to confirm all this under a political system which has not been historically dissembling to us for the last 20 years on this subject.
	That's why that camera and that individual is so important.
	And the fact that we've got a healthy Mars Express spacecraft in orbit around Mars tonight is a major step forward in maybe finally answering this huge question.
	Which of course brings us to the question you posed earlier.
	Why the hell should we care?
	Why is it important to us?
	What questions will be answered or created or in what way will life change for us if you are correct?
	Well, let's start with the big and work backwards.
	You know, human beings have been looking for the last couple hundred years, ever since we invented the telescope, for company.
	Right, Art?
	Yes, sir.
	I mean, we have looked out there.
	There have been more books written on the subject, Are We Alone?
	Every NASA mission that leaves, there will be a press conference, and somebody at one of those press conferences will say, Oh, and this mission will, you know, give us more information on, Is the Human Race Alone?
	NASA has sold its entire soul and its budget On the concept of people want to know the answer to that question.
	It's right up there along with, you know, why are we here?
	Why do we exist?
	It's almost like if the human race was really, really, really lonely.
	And until it finds something that it can compare itself with, it is missing a critical part of its own identity.
	And there's this subliminal There's a part of each of us that yearns to know the truth behind that question.
	I know I sure do.
	The polls show us, when we did the conference in Wisconsin a couple of months ago, where you were predicting that we were going to have some fireworks because religious people of a fundamentalist bent would come up against this question.
	Yes, well you had it planned that way.
	Well, we didn't have it planned exactly that way.
	Well, I mean, there was going to be that controversy.
	There was going to be that dichotomy present.
	Alright, hold tight, Richard.
	We are at the top of the hour.
	It really is a critically important question for the human race.
	all of us the
	the the
	the From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with guest host Art Bell.
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from east to the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country Sprint Access number, pressing Option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
	And now, sitting in for George Noy, Here is Art Bell.
	Good evening, everybody.
	You see, I don't have this ironclad religious faith.
	Well, I do.
	I think I generally believe in a maker and a creator.
	Beyond that, I don't know about every word written in the Bible.
	And I do want the answers to these questions.
	And they are very important to me.
	Who are we?
	How did we get here?
	What's our destiny?
	What are we supposed to be doing?
	Is this a giant classroom?
	I mean, what's up?
	You know, these kinds of questions.
	I really do want those answers.
	And while I don't agree with Richard on every aspect of his presentation with regard to the secrecy behind all of this and the relationship, for example, to Egypt and a lot of other aspects that he will discuss with regard to the Mars mystery.
	Can we call it that?
	Whether or not there is a civilization that at one time thrived on Mars is critically important to answering some of the aforementioned questions.
	So, I'm with Richard on some of it.
	There's something on Mars.
	I'm pretty well convinced of that and Therefore, this subject is not only viable, but critical to all of us.
	And that's what we're kind of right in the middle of right now.
	We'll be right back.
	When you do a program like this you receive an enormous number of emails.
	And by the way, I'm very thankful for that.
	And you can email me at, if you wish, artbell at mindspring.com or artbell at aol.com.
	Both are good addresses.
	That's Art Bell, all lowercase, either at MindSpring.com or AOL.com.
	So, I get a lot of emails.
	I get thousands and thousands of emails and over the years I've had countless emails
	and I would say 20 percent maybe 30 percent of those emails
	are from the Bible belt and from hardcore religious
	fundamentalists.
	20 to 30 percent.
	I'll hold it down at 20 percent.
	Really hardcore religious fundamentalists.
	And I can tell you right now that that group of people, not a small group, not 20 percent.
	Richard, you disagree with that figure, by the way?
	20?
	No, it sounds about right.
	Yeah, does it?
	Okay.
	Now, keep in mind that those people are more motivated to email you on this subject than, let's say, a more secular mainstream.
	I absolutely agree.
	So you have to weight your numbers that way.
	Even if I were to cut it in half and make it ten percent?
	It is not a trivial percentage.
	It's an important part of American society.
	I will totally grant you that.
	Okay, well, the temperature of those emails is out of sight, Richard.
	They think all of this is absolute bunk, not only where they're never living things on Mars or beings or intelligent beings, but such an idea, it goes against everything they know and they believe and they were told.
	Genesis explains every word of how it happened, and that's literally how they believe it occurred, and there are no others.
	We're it.
	Well, see, this is the discussion that has to occur, and we formally began it, you know, from our side at the University of Wisconsin last October, October 25th.
	How'd it go?
	Well, we had a 13-hour conference.
	We had myself, Mike Heiser, David Flynn, Paul Nelson, and Hugh Ross.
	I think Hugh Ross has been on your show a couple, three times.
	He was a fascinating guy to argue and discuss with.
	I mean, he is a mainstream scientist and astronomer, came out of Caltech, now does work in Pasadena.
	Yeah, so how'd it go with you, Ross?
	He and I had an extraordinary set of exchanges.
	Uh-huh, I bet.
	Because, and this is all on videotape, you know, what I had planned to do is to, for all those people that wanted the tapes of that conference, which is 13 hours, I think it's 10 or 12 tapes, something like that, I'd hope to get them to everybody by Christmas and as you know the flu got me instead and so we're a month behind.
	But it was an extraordinary day that went from like nine in the morning till almost midnight.
	How did it go with you, Ross?
	It was, well, he actually softened as the day went on.
	He started out very dogmatic and very rigid and in the three-hour panel discussion you will see That he actually began softening at the edges as he saw evidence and he saw a logic train that did not contravene his fundamental religious perspectives.
	Mike Heiser and David Flynn were eloquent in demonstrating with literal chapter and verse from the Bible.
	I wish I had you here.
	Well, someday maybe we can have a debate or a discussion.
	But until that time, if anybody really wants to see how a fundamentally religious perspective confronts Cydonia... That tape would be worth seeing.
	And it can be seen.
	In fact, if I can break into a commercial here, we can actually make it available if you call an 800 number.
	Get a pencil and paper here and I'll give it to you in a second.
	The most important thing is, as you know, Hughes' perspective.
	Is that we're the only thing that's it.
	Earth was prepared by the deity for human beings.
	We reign supreme in the cosmos and the universe.
	We are the only galaxy and the only place where we can see things.
	I mean, it's an extraordinary litany of numbers and logic that he uses for mainstream science to defend his religious perspective that we're it.
	So, of course, I asked him, but could not God, if he wanted to glorify himself, have created humanity in more than one place?
	Because, as you know, my model, Art, is that we're looking on Mars at stuff that we ourselves created.
	And then David Flynn came in, and his thesis is that what we're seeing on Mars is humanity before the fall.
	That the splendiferous, incredible architecture and science and engineering that is implied by the scale and the kinds of things we're seeing in these images would only be possible for a human species before the original sin, before the fall of Adam.
	Put another way, we are the Martians.
	We are the Martians.
	And this kind of took Ross aback because obviously he had never really come up against this idea That you could divide, you know, human beings in those different eras to different places.
	The Bible does not specifically exclude that kind of approach, it turned out, from those that are textual biblical scholars like Heizer and like Flynn.
	So, look, if you're interested in this dialogue, which we started in October, and you want to help us, what I want to do is to, frankly, get a lot of people in this audience to get these tapes, And then send copies to various universities around the country, and churches, and theological groups, and prayer groups, and whomever, and have us invited on the road to go and speak on this subject with other people from other faiths, from other denominations, from, you know, ultimately I want to include Islam in this, I want to include the Jewish community,
	I want to have this discussion joined as to what this means at the most fundamental spiritual level when we confront the fact that the human species is a lot grander and has had a most astonishing history that up until now has been kept either by design or by accident from most of us.
	Richard, why would our Martian origins make us grander?
	than if you took the literal meaning of Genesis.
	Well, I'm speaking now directly to what the data say.
	For someone to build an inhabited structure a mile on a side, two miles long, containing several cubic miles, with all the stunning suburbs you see around it, and all the filigree, even in ruins, there is an awesome, aching splendor there.
	It just cries out for a majesty of accomplishment.
	And when you read the Bible, and you read the concept of humanity before and humanity after, from Flynn's perspective, this fits perfectly the concept of a fall.
	A fall from some extraordinary height where we were created as the chosen of God Put in a place where everything was at our beck and call, there was no want, there was no suffering, there was no privation, and then something happened.
	Well, scientifically, I can defend the idea that something awful happened, and we are here as refugees as a result of that something awful happening.
	So, whether you're coming at it from a religious point of view, And you want to finally know, and in God's good grace and time, ultimately, He will reveal it, right?
	That's what those people believe.
	Or you come at it from the scientific point of view, which is where I'm coming from, which is we have a right to know.
	You know, we wouldn't have been... we wouldn't be thinking rational beings with the capability of asking these questions and finding the answers, unless we were supposed to find the answers.
	So no matter which side of the coin you want to look at, Ultimately, the knowing is where we have to go.
	I'm all for that.
	I'm all for that.
	Let me give you that number.
	For folks that want to really get into this and see how we discussed, for the first time, with religious scholars, the concept of the Bible, Sidonia, the Fall, Satan, you know, the whole... everything was thrown in the mix.
	We had an extraordinary day.
	I wish you could have been there, Art.
	Okay, the number is...
	1-800-350-4639.
	That's 1-800-350-4639.
	There is a tape system on there.
	If you leave your name and phone number, they'll call you back.
	And I promise we will have this out before the end of January.
	And I really want a lot of messengers in this audience to send copies to their universities, their churches, wherever they think this discussion should be joined.
	Because the Europeans have the wherewithal to bring it right to our front door if they so choose
	Let's go back to This knowing and let us suppose for a moment the Europeans
	are successful and we find out that there Indeed our cities beneath the soil of Mars
	Cities.
	So then, what you said becomes somewhat logical that we are Martians.
	Yep.
	Well look, the face says we're somehow involved.
	10% of the audience out there that writes to me would be fundamentalist and would be Extremely upset by that news.
	I don't buy that.
	I don't buy that.
	Well, you can buy whatever you want, Richard.
	I'm telling you about the emails.
	I read them.
	I get them.
	I know.
	We're talking in a vacuum.
	This is before it's a reality.
	It's before the churches have spoken.
	Before the Baptists and the Lutherans and the Methodists and the Catholics and, you know, everybody has said, okay, this looks interesting.
	What you're getting is what Zogby gets when he does a poll.
	You know, who can beat George Bush?
	It's a lot more passionate than that, Richard.
	We're dealing with really fundamental core beliefs, and I'm telling you right now, there would be an incredible, incredible upset.
	And you said, you finished telling me that a very few people could accomplish a great deal.
	A very few, very determined people.
	And if you had 10% or even a portion thereof, and I've already halved it again, it wouldn't matter.
	That would be an enormous number of the however many we are now, 300 million people in America, whatever the current figure is.
	It's a lot.
	Yeah, let's count up on 300 million.
	Yeah, okay.
	10% of that would be a bunch.
	Right?
	And they could accomplish a great deal in terms of turning things upside down.
	Governments, religions, institutions.
	Extreme?
	Well, of course it is.
	It's an extreme group.
	And I'm going by what I've received, Richard.
	I've had thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, maybe a million emails since I've been doing this show.
	Well, my take is that we need real information.
	That's why I want to do this college tour.
	I started in Wisconsin with Mike, and we're going to continue it.
	You know, we're looking at a couple of other possible invitations already.
	And when people get these tapes and they can, you know, look at them and digest what's on them and see how the discussion flowed.
	I mean, Hugh Ross actually came from a very hard position to a very interesting collegial position.
	Explain it.
	Well, I mean... Did you change his view?
	I don't know.
	I don't want to go that far.
	I bet you can't.
	But I don't want to speak for him.
	What you need to do is to have him on the show, maybe have me on, and we'll discuss the specifics.
	But seeing the actual evidence, and then seeing in context how the text and the Bible don't confront it, but actually allow for it, depending upon how they're interpreted.
	He may have, as the night wore on, become perhaps more I would bet you a very great deal of money, Richard, that if I were to have him on the program right now and ask him if that conference changed his core beliefs, his hard, fundamental core beliefs, it'd be a great big, no way!
	you can see that i would bet you a very great deal of money richard that if i
	were to have mom program right now and ask him if that conference changed his
	core beliefs his hard fundamental core beliefs would be a great big
	no way well here's what's so interesting
	uh... at one point the conversation i'd i decided to make things intriguing and
	i said okay look you i said i will bet you would dinner at the fanciest
	restaurant you can pick out anywhere in los angeles yes
	that i'm right and that you're going to come around to seeing that it's there
	And he took me up on the bet.
	I bet he did.
	Now, here's what's interesting.
	About an hour later, he said, can we put a time limit on that?
	And I thought that was Most intriguing.
	Well, yeah, that's because he felt like otherwise it might not get answered in our lifetime, and what good then would a dinner do him?
	Well, that's not really playing fair, is it?
	He wanted to put a two-year limit.
	Richard, he hasn't... Now, two years... Remember, here is a gentleman who was connected by way of Caltech and JPL.
	He wanted to put a two-year limit.
	Two years is when the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter Which will photograph things the size of this laptop in my lap?
	Yes.
	Will be orbiting Mars.
	And there will be no doubt, if we don't get the data from Dr. Newcomb and Mars Express, the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter is being touted, get this, as the people's camera.
	They are already soliciting on the JPL website for people to submit targets For that camera to photograph, and they have an elaborate plan for involving the general public in an ebb and flow discussion of what they're seeing on Mars from that stunning, incredible camera, which just happens to fall at the end of Hugh Ross's two-year cutoff.
	I thought that was most interesting.
	Pretty interesting.
	But he hasn't changed his core views.
	When you talk to him, let's see what goes on.
	Fine.
	But I know that he hasn't changed his core views.
	And I've interviewed Dr. Ross, and I just know that what he believes so passionately has not changed.
	And nor would that be the case with most religious fundamentalists.
	Now the average Catholic out there is going to write in and say, hey, no problem.
	I don't have any problem with this kind of information.
	It doesn't conflict with what I believe.
	And that's quite correct.
	But that average Catholic needs to understand that there are fundamentalists in many faiths, not just Christianity, who would be extremely challenged by the information.
	Well, life is a challenging experience, Art, and fortunately, most of us are, I think, up to the challenge, and that's why it's time now that we join this discussion and we confront the implications.
	Because, for instance, It says, biblically, that God created man in His image, right?
	Yes.
	We find our image lying on Mars.
	That was one of the key things we discussed that day.
	What does that mean for that particular phrase?
	All right, hold it right there, Richard.
	Bottom of the hour, from the high desert in the middle of the night.
	As you can see, these are very profound questions for all of us.
	So, let's get started.
	I can see you lying back in your satin dress In a room where you do what you don't confess
	Some down you better take care If I find you been creeping down my back stairs
	She's been looking like a queen in a sailor's dream And she don't always say what she really means Sometimes I think it's a shame When I get feeling better when I'm feeling no pain From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with guest host Art Bell.
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	code 775-727-1295. The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222. To talk with Art
	Bell from east to the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country Sprint Access number, pressing Option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
	And now, sitting in for George Norrie, here is Art Bell.
	And indeed, tonight we will open the lines for Richard, which is always a very interesting experience, get his point of view on a lot of things.
	So if you have questions for Richard C. Hoagland, questions perhaps you've always wanted to
	ask, this is going to be your opportunity.
	All right, Richard, I do want to get people on the line with you tonight and let them
	ask some questions.
	But I'm sure there's a thing or two you wish to get in first.
	Well, we were working our way down the list of why should we care about this.
	That's right.
	And I wanted to start with the biggest, because who are we really is a question that everyone wants.
	Religious, or scientific, or an agnostic, or even an atheist.
	Yeah, sure.
	Everybody wants to know the answer to that question.
	Agreed.
	And I believe, fundamentally, that staring us in the face, pun intended, some major new answers are waiting for us on Mars tonight, and we have to go and find out what those answers are.
	Now, in a slightly lesser realm, you know, there's a lot of practical benefits that we could garner from Unearthing, literally, an extraordinary high-level civilization.
	For example?
	Well, every previous civilization we found on Earth has been more primitive than we are.
	You know, if you go to the Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Mayans, you know, these are Bronze Age cultures.
	These are, you know, extraordinarily learned cultures in many areas.
	The Mayans, of course, look at their mathematics and their astronomical, you know, systems.
	But they really don't answer fundamental questions of the 21st century.
	I want to read you an email that came in a couple days ago from someone who I think very eloquently speaks to what I want to talk about now.
	His name is Mark Chuddy.
	He's in Little Rock, Arkansas, and he doesn't know I was going to do this, but I wanted to do it just because I just thought it was very appropriate.
	He says, Dear Richard, it's approximately 4.55 AM.
	Central Standard Time in Little Rock, Arkansas.
	I just finished donating to your site via PayPal and I am currently listening to you converse with Arkbell on Coast the morning of December 21st.
	I thoroughly enjoy your passion for Sedonia and pray that your wishes are granted, rather illuminated, with the new photographs that are being taken of Mars.
	I am on total disability.
	Four spine surgeries and the implantation of a morphine pump for pain relief.
	And late night listening of Coast has gotten me through many a sleepless night.
	Thank you for taking on the good old boy network of NASA.
	As a side note, the VA graphics under your direction have created a stunning new look to your website.
	My hat is off to you.
	I look forward to contributing on a regular basis.
	Kindest regards, Mark.
	Now Mark is in an incredible medical condition.
	The answer to Mark's problem, which lies in nerve regeneration art, may well lie in what we find on Mars.
	If we had access to the libraries, particularly if they're libraries dealing with homo sapiens, human beings, and a stunning technology of medical science that is light years beyond that which we currently can do here and now.
	And it was a full-blown technology.
	It's not like, for instance, they're carrying out certain experiments on the space station in zero gravity in the hopes that somehow that will contribute down the road toward this medical problem or that medical problem, etc., etc.
	But if we were to find access to the science and technology of a species that was so far ahead of us that they could build You know, encapsulated cities, miles on the side and miles in the sky.
	The impact for all kinds of fundamental human problems on this planet would be incalculable.
	Agreed.
	We literally would only have to bring the knowledge back and put it out there.
	We would have textbooks, we would have videos, we would have literal living records, because this is a high-tech civilization.
	And high tech civilizations will record more and more and more of what they do, if our own experience is any guide here.
	And given that our model says we're dealing with a human civilization, we can extrapolate from what we're doing, that we simply did it better then than we're doing it now, we did more of it.
	So if you now look at that, take it from the medical, which goes Everything from, you know, March problem to the fundamental problem which is, do we really have to die?
	Remember the night that you had the anti-aging guy on?
	Sure.
	The doctor?
	Sure.
	Who was struggling mightily against great odds and minuscule funding to find out why this fundamental disease strikes down all of us, bar none?
	Yes.
	Is it not possible, in that milieu, That at the very least, human beings lived a lot longer, and not with pain and suffering and senescence.
	In other words, growing old, growing feeble, growing less virile, growing less capable.
	Even the Bible suggests man's span may have been 900 years.
	Now this is where David Flynn's perspective comes back in, because he says, and he did a brilliant lecture, which again is on one of these tapes, Illustrating how a lot of the textual support for these miracles in the Bible is answered if they are referring to a pre-fall state for humanity lying just next door.
	And, you know, for Mark there in Little Rock tonight, that is a real doable thing because we wouldn't have a learning curve.
	We wouldn't have to spend years figuring out how to make this work.
	That, of course, would require our actually going to Mars, as in putting men... Not necessarily, Arnie.
	But more than likely.
	No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	Think of this.
	You had another guy on last Saturday, or the Sunday.
	Your robot guy.
	Mr. Fink.
	Yes.
	Imagine if the autonomous systems he's creating could be incorporated into a rover, which could be landed at Cydonia, And could literally find the libraries, plug into the crystals, or the CDs, or whatever matrix that this data is recorded, and it will likely be underground, because if you look at the close-ups now we're getting of that area of the DNM, there's an incredible pattern which indicates we're looking at a surface porous structure that is hiding a lot of stuff beneath.
	All of it survived, it had to be underground.
	The stuff beneath will have survived.
	The planet is a literal museum art.
	It's kind of like a planetary Smithsonian.
	Because there is no oxygen.
	There's no oxidation.
	There's no corrosion.
	The air is CO2.
	I mean, the Constitution is protected in the glass case in Washington with CO2.
	Sure.
	So if we find stuff underground, and you would want to use robots, probably, because of the problem of potential, you know, landslides and cave-ins and stuff like that, Even when you have a manned expedition, you're going to have robotic help to go to places that are too dangerous for you to go to until they're made safe.
	Incidentally, side note, the President was going to make a speech, which could be delayed perhaps until, I'm told, the State of the Union.
	Yes.
	In the speech, it is rumored the President was going to suggest we go back to the Moon, or perhaps even to Mars, as a national goal.
	What do you know about that?
	Well, according to, again, my sources, That is all absolutely true.
	The good news is, according to one contingent, the Bob Zubrin contingent, you know who Bob Zubrin is?
	He's the avid, he's almost as rabid about Mars as I am.
	The engineer who's been trying to sell for years and years the so-called concept of Mars Direct, how to get to Mars cheaply and quickly with current technology.
	And what does he say?
	He says that we passed a kind of a drop-dead date on the 17th.
	The fact that the President did not use the 100th anniversary at Kitty Hawk to announce this grand plan, which he claims was a basic stopgap effort by NASA to head off a real decision.
	You know, to say we're going to go back to the moon in 20 years is basically a meaningless pronouncement.
	It would be out of his administration, out of the next administration.
	So there would have been no commitment of resources, no going to the Congress for money and actual technology and all that.
	Well, Zubrin now says that having passed that date, the people at NASA that are trying to head off the Mars option have lost.
	And that in fact, it is a very viable option that if enough people at the White House know that they want to go to Mars, that by the time of the State of the Union, we could have that on the table and the President could well enunciate it as his big vision having passed through this window that NASA set up, this kind of trap.
	That they tried to set up for the White House, a la Go Back to the Moon.
	Well, will he set it up as a vision with funding?
	That is, of course, the major question.
	And we won't know the answer until the speech is made.
	But I do know that we had major input on the State of the Union last year.
	You know, we turned out almost 20,000 responses in a couple of days.
	Well, you know, I do agree that just announcing an effort to return to the moon, I don't think would light many fires out there, Richard.
	Been there, done that.
	I've been there, done that, and going back would be interesting enough from a lot of perspectives, actually.
	Well, from my perspective.
	Yes, but in terms of exciting the nation, exciting the world, giving us all a vision, Mars would have to be it.
	The theory now, and I tend to agree, is that the President is going to wait to see what happens with the two NASA rovers on the 3rd and the 24th.
	The State of the Union follows Like on the 27th, I think.
	So with one or both of them down successful, and with the avid flux to the websites, you know, that will happen a la Pathfinder in 97.
	Now, of course, if the President had in his pocket remarkable geographic subterranean anomalies, well, Then you could really say Mars was some zip in your voice, couldn't you?
	It depends on how politically courageous the administration wants to be.
	I mean, if you had these great anomalies that would demand investigation, then you really could justify a let's go to Mars speech.
	That is the ideal scenario.
	Now, the reason for doing this, I am told again by our sources, is because this administration is fearful.
	That the United States is losing its perennial supremacy in the world.
	Well, they've got good reason to worry.
	Look at China.
	Exactly.
	And look at Europe.
	Europe, by the way, not only has got a successful mission around Mars tonight, Mars Express, did you know that they're a major player on the NASA mission to Saturn, which will get there on July 1 of 2004?
	The Huygens probe Which is named after Christian Huygens, who was a very famous astronomer back in the 16th century, is going to plunge into Titan's atmosphere and soft land on Titan.
	It is a European ESA, European Space Agency mission.
	Well, if you think we don't have a lot of control over the Europeans, because they might be miffed At us.
	Then imagine how little control we have over the Chinese.
	So whatever is happening now... And don't forget about the Indians.
	India has announced it wants a manned lunar mission within the next 10 years.
	Then there's Japan.
	Yes, but the Chinese are just... The Chinese are the ones with the technology.
	They're not going to listen to one word of politically what we've got to say.
	And so there has to be That's why the Speaker of the House, not Speaker, what's his name, Tom DeLay, he's the senior Republican in the House of Representatives.
	He said what?
	He basically said that it is not an option anymore as to whether NASA gets the high ground and goes back to the moon and beyond.
	It is a strategic imperative.
	Meaning that he's part... Cheney has been met with the delay over the last several weeks and had several conversations.
	And Dick Cheney, Vice President, is the guy running this analysis that's going to present to the President whatever options for a revitalized NASA and a big vision, a big mission, will be ultimately announced.
	So if delay is on board, you know that the Republicans are going to be behind it with funding, and it's being looked at as a kind of a parallel to the strategic high ground of keeping the United States
	supreme technologically. Richard, suppose the president were to announce
	an intent to go to Mars. Could we do it?
	Yes. What would it require?
	We know so much more about Mars than we knew about the moon when Kennedy made
	that pronouncement.
	More important, we've had 40 years of space development.
	OK, how would we do it?
	I mean, the Saturns are history.
	The Saturns are history.
	We don't need a Saturn.
	OK, what do we need?
	What you would do is you would redesign the shuttle system.
	You would take off the orbiter and you would turn the shuttle, the engine, the tanks, the guts of it.
	Yes.
	It was an upper stage into a heavy lift launch vehicle.
	That would be the equivalent of the Saturn V. You would then, in Zubrin's vision, send a remote hab, a habitat, to Mars first.
	It would land autonomously, it would begin to make rocket fuel, and when you got signals from telemetry that, you know, the lights were on, and it was safe to come home, you would then send your crew via a second launch to go to Mars a year or two later.
	And you'd already have waiting for you the means to come home.
	You would make your rocket fuel out of what's available on Mars, like living off the land.
	A little bit like the Lewis and Clark expedition.
	Lewis and Clark, when Tom Jefferson personally sat in the White House and penned the instructions for Lewis and Clark to explore this continent, and gave us eventually the United States of America, he knew that they could live off the land.
	That they didn't have to take everything with them and bring it back.
	That's Zubrin's model, and it works.
	Now, NASA has other plans in parallel, which are the nuclear option, nuclear rockets and that kind of thing.
	Right.
	But we don't have to wait for that.
	We can go to Mars with what we know now, safely, and relatively inexpensively, provided there's the political vision.
	And if there are cities waiting for us, and if the Europeans are going to basically Hold out the red flag and say, look what's there.
	This nation cannot afford to not rise to the challenge.
	And I think that's what you're hearing echoes of in all these trial balloons in the Washington Post, in the New York Times, in the wire services.
	Yes, I agree.
	This foreshadowing of a big announcement.
	Okay, let's talk about timetable.
	With regard to the ongoing European mission, by what date might we, the public, have I don't know.
	The smoking gun or the clear photographic evidence.
	What's your best guess on dates?
	Well, the only hard evidence we have is how long it's going to take the spacecraft to get into the right orbit to begin its mapping mission, which will be January 4th.
	Yes, and when might they do the images that we're interested in?
	Well, that depends on the orbit.
	And we, you know, they're not going to make special plans to go over Cydonia unless they have a secret agenda to do that.
	So in the normal In the normal state of affairs, it takes about a month to fly over any particular spot on Mars from the orbit they're going to be in.
	And the flow of information, how's it going to be released?
	It's supposed to be fairly real-time.
	Fairly real-time?
	Fairly real-time.
	In other words, within a few days of getting data, we're supposed to know about it.
	Okay.
	And I would say, politically, it's going to be paced politically much more than scientifically, Art.
	And it all depends on the relationship between this administration and Europe and how much Europe wants to tweak the tiger's tail.
	And remember, Europe is a very powerful economy with hundreds of millions of people who are much more attuned and open.
	I mean, I have been invited to Rome this summer.
	I guess I didn't have a chance to tell you that.
	To speak in Rome at a conference?
	No, you didn't.
	And one of the things that I have specifically asked when I'm there This is going to be after Steve Bassett's political conference in Washington in April.
	We're going to fly directly from Washington to Rome and then back to Washington.
	I have asked to speak with the Italian members of the Mars Express team, both the Mars people and the camera people, to lay out for them the photographs of what we want them to help us confirm.
	And I have been told for many years that the Europeans are much more open to these ideas than Americans, particularly the NASA people have been.
	And my emails and faxes over the years have confirmed this, and, you know, requests for interviews for magazines and all that.
	All right.
	So... All right, Richard, you're going to have to hold it there.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	I do want to get some phones when we come back, all right?
	Okay.
	All right, good.
	Hold it right there.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Anybody want to go to Mars?
	I came from somewhere back in her monarchal home The sentimental fool don't see
	Trying hard to recreate what had yet to be created Once in her life, she musters a smile
	For his nostalgic tear Never could he hear what he wanted to say
	Only to realize It never really was
	She had a place in his heart Thanks for watching!
	and I ain't got no trouble in my life
	No foolish dream to make me cry I'm never frightened or worried
	I know I always get by I hear a, hear a cool down
	When something gets in my way I go round it Don't let life get me down
	I'm gonna take it the way that I found it I got music in me
	I got music in me I got music in me.
	Yeah.
	I got music in me, I got music in me They say that life is a circle, a circle of many versions
	the way that I found it.
	But I'm moving a straight line, keeping my feet firmly on the ground.
	I get up, I cool down, I got words in my head,
	so I say them out loud.
	I get up, I cool down, This is Coast to Coast AM with guest host Art Bell.
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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	your in-country Sprint Access Number, pressing Option 5 and dialing toll-free
	800-893-0903. And now, sitting in for George Norrie, here is Art Bell.
	Well, not everybody loves Richard C. Hoagland.
	R.B.
	from out there somewhere says I'd rather be, rather have an ice pick stuck right through my eye than stay in the same room with Richard C. Hoagland.
	So there are people out there who find this man extremely irritating.
	I am not necessarily one of them.
	There are times he's an extremely passionate person And frankly, we don't have anybody else out there this passionate, this involved, in what might be on Mars.
	A totally non-trivial question, and perhaps soon to be a national goal.
	I find Richard to be very, very important, from one perspective.
	Very important indeed.
	And that's why he's here.
	and he'll be right back and we're going to the phones in a moment
	so you see Richard not everybody loves you but I you knew that already right
	You know, that has kind of been hinted at from time to time over the years.
	Well, I know there is a group out there, Richard, and they just don't like you at all.
	But on the other hand, the way I look at this is you're the only really passionate person that I know that's saying the things that you're saying, and they are non-trivial, and so you're very important, and I think you're very important.
	Well, thank you, my friend.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Oh, OK.
	Sorry about that.
	Yeah.
	This is Mark, a Christian fundamentalist, I guess, calling from Idaho.
	Cool.
	All right.
	Hi, Mark.
	Welcome to the program.
	I have a lot of things, but I guess I need to just narrow it down to one question, right?
	So, yeah, that highway coming from Cydonia, It really looks to me like erosion line.
	And I was wondering, you know, we've seen a lot of pictures of these.
	You mean instead of a highway, it looks more like erosion as in water erosion, something like that, right?
	River.
	River.
	Okay, river.
	There you are, Richard.
	And along that line, is there any kind of data as far as the gradient around that area?
	Could it just be a downhill slope and that could be water or carbon dioxide?
	The only data we have at the moment is Dr. Carlotto's shape from shading technology.
	That's why the German camera on the Mars Express mission and Dr. Newcomb's willingness to rephotograph Cydonia in stereo is going to be so important because we'll have actual ground truth, real stereo imagery if he does what he says he's going to do.
	And I just have a comment real quick.
	Okay, Vaughn, but you didn't answer his question, Richard.
	The question was, couldn't it be erosion?
	It doesn't have to be erosion.
	It doesn't look, to the geologists that we've shown this to, like, you know, it just doesn't look like erosion, and it doesn't look like faulting.
	Erosion doesn't have that surface texture.
	But, if I had you on a witness stand and I said, could it be erosion, you would probably have to answer yes.
	Well, it could be anything until you constrain it with more data.
	That's why we need higher resolution data and in color from Dr. Newcomb's camera.
	All right.
	Mr. Fundamentalist, anything else?
	Yeah, a comment about the rift, I guess, between Fundamentalist and this Mars, pre-existing life on Mars.
	There is a rift.
	I mean, it has absolutely no impact on Christianity.
	If there was life on Mars in the past, Now, you mean to say... Wait a minute now.
	You're telling me that if we are Martians, if we are the descendants of beings that lived on Mars, that would have no impact on Christianity?
	Well, no, no.
	That's not what I'm saying.
	Well, that's good.
	I'm saying if there was life before the Earth, because at the beginning of the Bible, It says that the Earth was null and void.
	There was no creation of the Earth.
	So it could have pre-existed, so there could have been a history before what we know now.
	It's just not important.
	That was Mike Heiser's position, that textually that is exactly what the Bible says.
	There's this void where a lot of other stuff could have gone on that we're not privy to yet.
	Yes, but quite clearly, if we are Martians He wouldn't be happy about that at all.
	Right?
	Right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hello, am I on?
	You are indeed.
	Oh, this is incredible.
	I've been trying to get on for 10 years.
	That's incredible.
	Go ahead.
	Go ahead.
	No, I was just saying that's very persistent of you.
	Well, OK, you know, you talk about the power of prayer and those kind of things.
	Well, my girlfriend's Writing with me, and she prayed, and boom, got on.
	Power of prayer?
	Maybe there's something going on there.
	All right, anyway, here you are.
	Okay, well, I have a question.
	I'd like to say, first of all, that I, too, am a Christian fundamentalist, and this is probably one of my favorite radio programs that's on.
	First two calls, Richard.
	One, two.
	Yeah, and I love this subject.
	That just means Christians have good sense to listen to Art Bell.
	Anyway, you no doubt have a question, right?
	Yes, I do have a question.
	Okay, now, I've come to... I'm kind of what you might call an amateur Bible scholar.
	I'm definitely not one of the more intelligent people out there, but I've done a lot of research and... That's okay, you don't have to qualify, just hit it.
	Okay, okay.
	The question is, have you ever heard any of the parallels between the Nephilim of Genesis chapter 6, which is after the fall of man, But that the Sons of God, or otherwise the Creatures from the Heavens, who came to the Earth and created Nephilim... What about the Nephilim?
	That somehow these Creatures from the Heavens have something to do with the construction on Mars?
	That's exactly David Flynn's position.
	And, you know, if you want to see his full thesis, you can get the video, but he makes a very interesting case That the size... I mean, look, the Nephilim are supposed to be giants, right?
	But if that was true, Richard, then we would not be Martians.
	If the Nephilim did everything that's on Mars, then we would not be Martians.
	But how do we know that we're not related?
	Well, the Bible's very clear about what the Nephilim were, and they were not fully us.
	But, but... I think this subject would challenge every Christian to totally, totally evaluate how they believe And they have to really, you know, we really have to wait for the evidence to be given to us.
	Are they, is this a separate species, or are they our descendants of the Bible?
	Well, what does it say in the Bible about the Nephilim?
	It says they saw that the women of earth were fair, and they took wives from them, right?
	Exactly.
	Now, the only way that you can have a family is if you're genetically related, Art.
	Right.
	Which means the Nephilim are somehow a part of the human species.
	Yes.
	Well, here's something that might be kind of interesting to think about.
	These Nephilim, if they are spiritual creatures, and if they've come here through some kind of a porthole, when they enter into our existence, there's still laws of physics and laws of science that they have to comply with, so they have to take on a body or, you know, Or they have to actually take some kind of craft to fly in, because they can't just float through the air.
	So there's certain laws of physics that they have to comply with, so when they come to Earth, they come in crafts, and they actually have physical-type bodies that they're able to interact with human beings and create this secondary race of people that's called the Nephilim.
	You need to really see what David Flynn said in Wisconsin, because it's exactly up You know, that plus his book.
	Flynn has a very excellent book out, where he goes literally chapter and verse through all the textual references that refer back to Cydonia, including those in the Bible.
	I mean, we've had two callers so far who say they're Christians, right Art?
	Most of them appear to be open-minded and want to know, which is where I'm coming from.
	I want to know!
	Well, yes, but when you directly ask them, for example, would it upset you to know that we are Martians, then the line is drawn.
	Do we still have our caller with us?
	Not that caller, no.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hey, good morning, how are you guys?
	All right, where are you, sir?
	Let's see, I'm somewhere on I-75 running down to Florida.
	All right, got it.
	Well, hey, I was over by Pahrump the other day.
	Yes, sir.
	I've got a couple things.
	One, I guess you'd first off have to say that by definition, for all the Christians out there, I'm sure I'm going to make them mad, God or Jesus or Big Daddy Jr.
	and the spooks are aliens.
	By definition, if God created the world in seven days, he's not from the world.
	He's not from Earth, which means, if the face on Mars has anything to do with the human race, and we basically terraformed Earth, God, by definition, is an extraterrestrial.
	This point was made in Wisconsin, various, several different ways.
	Okay.
	Right.
	You know, which means that one of the reasons that people hate you, Richard, and sad to say you aren't, which I'm never going to be used to hearing you as a guest host, but, uh, You guys, you're sitting right there in the forefront, poised to shatter the world's religious belief system and kind of come forward and give answers to people that are looking for them.
	So that's why I believe that most religious fanatics are afraid of you.
	But it kind of brings me to another thing.
	Sitting in this truck, I've got a lot of time to think about a lot of things.
	I bet.
	And one of the things that I've come to realize is that the phrase, the mind is like a parachute, it only works when open.
	Incorrect.
	It should read, a mind is like a parachute.
	It only works when open, but that only breaks your fall.
	Our minds are like a parasail.
	We soar above it all.
	All right, sir.
	If you're willing to open your mind and think about it, there's no way that a parachute is going to help you because you're not going down.
	All right.
	I appreciate your call.
	Thank you.
	Let's just keep on moving.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi, how are you?
	Very well, thank you.
	First of all, I want to say I really like Richard C. Hoagland.
	I love his passion and enthusiasm and his risk-taking.
	He's got all of that in him.
	And yours, too, Art.
	Thank you.
	That's kind of, I think, why we're friends.
	Yeah, really.
	And I'm so happy to be able to look forward, for good or ill, instead of just listening to people narrow-mindedly reacting to what's already happened.
	Anyway, I'd like to make a suggestion as to how knowledge about Mars having been inhabited by people Perhaps, might actually please fundamentalists.
	And then I want to ask a big question, if I could.
	If it turns out that this is the case, I would think that the fundamentalists could feel validated, and perhaps even triumphant, if they can correlate the things that are in the Bible, like the Garden of Eden, let's say, like what the First Callers have talked about, And say, see, it really was true!
	If that's the way it worked out.
	Can I interrupt you for a second?
	Yeah.
	One of the maps that I showed in Wisconsin, Art, was of Schiaparelli's original maps of Mars, made back in the late 1800s, around 1877.
	And he named the various features on Mars that are common nomenclature today.
	Well, just next door to Cydonia, you'll never guess what region he named on Mars after a certain place.
	He called it Eden.
	Ah, interesting.
	Yes, it could have been Eden.
	I can see how you could slide that right in, and then of course, when the old bite out of the apple went, so went the atmosphere.
	Our thesis is that some people know more than the rest of us.
	They have access to some information somehow handed down through time.
	Is it possible some of the early Mars scholars, like Schiaparelli, who so determinedly argued that those canals were artificial, that he knew something?
	And that he made those maps so that someday that knowledge would come full circle?
	Well, the lady's right.
	I mean, if they were to discover that Mars was Eden, the Garden of Eden, for example, it would validate a great deal.
	It's right there on the maps.
	Sure, that'd be wild.
	But that's a great big if.
	And you had a big question, too.
	Yeah, right.
	And may I also say that I think that we could say that if we really had been visited by aliens, that the big guys might be cloned drones And the greys might be android robots, created by the original inhabitants of Mars.
	And maybe what they're doing, if the cattle mutilations and the various samples that are taken and the abductions and whatever are true, maybe they're trying to recreate their original masters.
	All right, well let's hold it there, and let's ask Richard about contemporary ufology, crop circles, animal mutilations, the kinds of things she just talked about, the larger aliens, and then the manufactured greys.
	That's a popular theory, Richard.
	I mean, how do you handle all of that?
	Might as well say.
	Well, you know, it's interesting, because I kind of half expected tonight you were going to give me the Lear test at the top of the show.
	No, because... And you disappointed me.
	I know, I know how you'd react to the later test.
	Okay, good.
	Um, look.
	Given that we're looking at ruins, and I'm 99% convinced now that they're really there, and given that we may be looking at human ruins in an extraordinarily ancient and wondrous epic, you then have to ask yourself, if only some of us came here, where did the rest of us go?
	And my answer is that they're also here.
	They've come back and they're meddling.
	And part of the reason, Art, that maybe there has been an inhibition in letting the rest of us know our true history is that some of us out there have been meddling with the timeline, meddling with historical Uh, curve to keep us in the dark.
	Well, since you're that far out on a limb, then why don't you go ahead and tell us why would they meddle?
	Motivation?
	Why?
	Well, what do human beings do to each other all the time?
	Kill each other.
	And control each other?
	Uh, two.
	And knowledge is power.
	Now, given that we're a pretty nasty species, I mean, look at what we do better than anything, and you just said it.
	We kill each other.
	Yeah.
	Suppose the guys out there that didn't go through the fall don't think that we're ready for prime time.
	That we're people that should be allowed to associate with civilized races and human beings.
	And they're determined to keep us down on the farm.
	How better to keep us down on the farm than the metal in our politics to meddle with our spacecraft by remote control through human agents to simply keep us in this somnambulance so we don't really understand what it is we once had and what we could have again.
	Well, there are many who believe that when we reached the moon we were told that we should really go back home and we were met and that we were instructed that if we were to come off the farm We'd be slaughtered.
	I mean, that's putting it very gruffly, but there are people who believe we have been so instructed.
	Well, the fact is that we went, and remember, I was there, I was sitting right beside Cronkite when we went to the moon, and we haven't been anywhere near the moon in over 30 years.
	Suspicious.
	What makes that, what made that happen?
	Why the interregnum?
	And why now can a president be poised to maybe return us there?
	Is it possible there's a curse?
	I don't see how we've improved much.
	Look what's going on around the world.
	Buildings are blowing up.
	We're having a war on terrorism.
	I mean, it's not looking good in a killing category.
	Maybe there are other factors we're not aware of.
	This is all speculation.
	It certainly is.
	But since we're out here on a limb, I thought, what the hell?
	Might as well go all the way out.
	But if we're dealing with human beings, if we're dealing with I mean, what did we do, the Soviet Union and the United States, but to meddle in every other nation and to basically control them, or try to control them as our puppets in the bigger war?
	Suppose that kind of game has been going on with this planet, because of things out there that we have no conception of as yet.
	Alright, hold tight.
	We will be right back.
	This is me in the middle of a dry spell, Jimmy Rodgers on the lick-dro of pie.
	Mama's dancing, baby on her shoulder, the sun is setting like molasses in the sky.
	Hey ya hey ya ho, hey ya hey ya hey ya ho.
	From coast to coast and worldwide on the Internet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with guest host Art Vetter.
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	and dialing toll free 800-893-0903.
	And now, sitting in for George Norrie, here is Art Bell.
	Inside495 in Washington, D.C.
	says, Hoagland has a vivid imagination.
	Well, it's true.
	Richard has a vivid imagination.
	And it's certainly not our place on this program to have people with imaginative dysfunction.
	You know, that's what we're all about here.
	He's got passion, and yes, he does have an imagination.
	In a moment, more of it.
	There's really nobody else saying the things that Richard C.
	Hoagland is saying with a passion.
	That he says them, and there needs to be somebody saying them.
	There's a very great, large body of evidence indicating that there's a big surprise coming on Mars, and even the Moon, should we return there.
	So we've got to have somebody like Richard.
	Richard?
	I have an idea.
	What?
	Well, that last emailer makes an interesting point, because yes, I have an imagination.
	But science begins in imagination.
	Yes.
	If you can't imagine it, you can't set out a methodology to test it.
	So let me make this suggestion, and you can crunch on this and decide in your own good time what you want to do.
	We ought to do a show some night on all the things I've been right about.
	And we could include all the things you've been wrong about.
	You have been right about a lot of things, and that really is the reason I keep having you back, Richard.
	There is nobody else who has the passion and interest to be pursuing this the way you do.
	There's nobody else.
	There are other scientists who can confirm parts of your work and that you brought forward, but I mean in terms of Somebody really pushing down the path you've been going.
	I don't know of anybody else.
	You've got some people who have helped you, but you really are the lead voice in all of this, so you're important.
	Well, I think it would be very educational for people to see how the process works and how many predictions, scientific, I'm not talking political now, because political predictions are, you know, worth a powder and shot to blow them away, because as I said, the politics can change on a dime.
	But the science stands.
	The science is there and It would be interesting and very important for people to gauge how we do the science part of this to see how many times we've made predictions that have been right.
	We've got some stunning images up on the site of Saturn that we're not going to get to tonight.
	I have a major set of predictions about the Saturn mission, Cassini, which is closing in even as we speak.
	Which is very relevant to the other question that was asked.
	Let's not waste it.
	Go ahead, make them very quickly.
	We can't make it quickly.
	I would rather talk to real people tonight and we'll just come back and do that another night.
	It needs some seasoning anyway.
	It will not go away.
	In your next life, Richard, you will learn to do things quickly.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hi Art.
	Hi Richard.
	This is Jeff from Knoxville, Tennessee.
	Hey Jeff.
	Hi there.
	Richard, you've got me fooled on the fact that there are, in fact, ancient structures buried beneath the sands of Mars.
	I guess where I really haven't seen you present much evidence is your theory regarding the migration of Martians to Earth.
	Is that speculation on your part, or do you have... No, we actually have data and I've been holding off until I can present it In a coherent fashion, and, you know, dot the I's and cross the T's, because it is such an important thing.
	I mean, tonight, Art... All right, just give me the brief theory.
	I mean, what did... Well, the theory is that you had Mars, which had an enormous catastrophe.
	Something, you know, unimaginable happened to that planet.
	The mainstream guys have come to the conclusion that something catastrophic happened.
	They don't know what.
	Our model, which we presented on the website, the Mars title paper, is that Mars used to orbit a bigger planet out in the asteroid belt, and that planet blew up.
	You know, there were two options.
	It could have blown up or it could have been hit by something.
	You know, it even could have been our sun.
	No, no, no, no, no, not in this model.
	Well, maybe not in that model, but in another model, believe me, it could have been our sun.
	It suddenly had a gigantic storm.
	There was a... Yeah, but then you have the problem of, why is the Earth still here?
	There was, well, because... Why is it a garden?
	There was a program called, what was it, Planet, it was on HDTV, which I've been watching a lot of lately.
	Favorite Discovery.
	The Discovery Channel, of course.
	And it was a planet storm, that was it.
	And they really don't know what our sun's done in the past.
	They certainly speculated that it could erupt enormously and at a time, for example, when a magnetic field was at a low or a switch point and whatever atmosphere had been on Mars was suddenly vulnerable when it otherwise would not have been, you know, protected originally the way our own planet's atmosphere is protected.
	Um, that it got whacked by the sun at the wrong moment, and that is certainly scientifically plausible.
	The problem, Art, is that Mars got physically whacked.
	It got hit by a humongous amount of junk.
	Material.
	Right.
	Well, that would have happened anyway.
	No, because it happened all in one hemisphere in a very brief period of time in this model that we're laying out, which has the prediction.
	Remember, the model is only as good as your prediction.
	And we have some more predictions for the tidal model based on what the rovers, the NASA rovers, are going to find when they get down on the surface and start analyzing the dirt.
	If it was that fast, Richard, and there was a mass extinction, including of the atmosphere, then who had time to build spaceships and go to Mother Earth?
	Because they saw it coming.
	They saw it coming.
	It's in the physics.
	It's in the hyperdimensional physics model.
	So we need some night to really grapple with all the cool things.
	I was going to get into a bit of it tonight as the practical benefit of going to Mars, because what's on Mars, if I'm right, are hyper-dimensional machines.
	A technology light years better than ours, that doesn't use fossil fuels, that would make Stephen Greer drool, okay?
	That he could take off the shelf and plug in, and it will run.
	Yes.
	And I have some laboratory data and I actually was going to relate it to what we're seeing at Saturn in terms of observation that Cassini is going to make.
	But we can hold that for another show.
	The point is that there is a stunning amount that we can learn about the solar system if we simply look and not come at it with preconceived notions.
	And some night I think a show where we go through all the weird areas I've been right would be appropriate.
	Oh, I'd love to.
	All right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	My name's Meredith, and I'm calling from Georgia.
	Meredith, can you speak up a bit?
	Yeah, you're going to have to yell at us, hon.
	OK.
	Well, I wanted to mention that when you just were saying that about Mars, And, well, I know Jupiter, um, you know, could there have ever been a planet in between those two?
	Yeah, that's the whole idea.
	Yes, this is the one... What I mean is, that planet.
	Yes, this is the one that Richard speculates crashed into Mars.
	Well, no.
	No, no, no, no, no, no.
	What happened was, and this is not original with me, it's Tom Ben Planner that originally came up with the idea that Mars was a satellite of a larger planet.
	That's right, but you buy into that, right?
	Well, we, well, we don't buy into it, we have data That confirms, it's the title model, it's the signatures on Mars that have been found by Odyssey, the other spacecraft, that confirm that that appears to be the scenario.
	So this other planet that used to be the parent, you know, Mars was the moon and it was the parent.
	That's where people actually lived, and then they built this monument on Mars.
	No, no, no.
	That's what Tom said.
	That's what Tom thought.
	No, no, no.
	Don't confuse Tom's ideas with mine.
	Tom thinks they lived on this other planet.
	I don't.
	I think it was too big and nasty for them to live on.
	Well, I think that's what I just said.
	They lived on Mars.
	Okay.
	And they saw what was going to happen to the parent planet because they had a physics light years beyond ours and they saw what was going on in the core.
	And planets occasionally explode by natural means and or there may have been a war.
	The wild card is we may have done it to ourselves.
	On a planetary scale, as opposed to just nuking each other.
	Well, that would have historical precedence.
	And it would also have precursors, so you would know.
	So a small band of refugees, to go back to the first question, then escaped to the only other place within the solar system they could live without technology, which was here.
	But there were already guys here, another part of the human race.
	That's where the Nephilim, the sons of God, the big guys, Meet the little guys that lived here on Earth, that were part of the same human family, so they could interbreed.
	And it gets more interesting from there.
	How do you like that, ma'am?
	Can I say something?
	Yes, sure.
	I wanted to say that I do... I don't know where I have this knowledge from, but I have a lot of knowledge, and it just is there in my soul, I guess.
	And about three years ago, it just started kind of unfolding, and I started having, well, I started seeing prophecies, you know, that are in the Bible.
	Of course, I was, you know, freaked out.
	Okay, is there something you want to tell us about, specific, that you saw?
	Knowledge?
	Oh, I've seen a lot, just about everything.
	That's why I was going to say there's many, there's many.
	Anything that impacts on this discussion?
	Okay, well, I think that all life Is all life in the universe?
	Yes.
	Is spirit on earth?
	Is what?
	Spirit on earth.
	All life in the universe is spirit on earth?
	Well, what I mean is, okay, we're kind of, we're all from all over the universe, but we all live here on earth.
	At this moment, you mean?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Life as we know it, anyway.
	All right, it's all earth-centric.
	Well, no, she's saying it's a transmigration of souls.
	We wound up here from all other kinds of places.
	Yes, there are many who believe that.
	That is not forbidden by this idea.
	For example, Richard, people who believe in reincarnation lately have been telling me they think that there's a great chance that you will be reincarnated as another intelligent being elsewhere in the universe.
	Would it surprise you I've met people who claim the reverse has happened and they have come here from other places over the years of this show?
	No, I've talked to some of those same people, Richard.
	Believe me.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, hello.
	Hi, I'm calling from Niagara Falls, New York.
	My name is Mario and I'm listening to you on WBEN 930 AM.
	Yes, sir.
	Okay.
	Can you speak up a bit?
	I can barely hear you.
	All right.
	Has that been any better?
	Yes.
	Okay, very good.
	I'd like to back up Richard's statement a little bit.
	My father used to tell me this story when I was young, and he had a brother who is a cardinal in Rome.
	And he used to tell me, when I was young, that we are the Martians, and that Adam and Eve... First of all, the Garden of Eden was on Mars.
	And Adam and Eve came to Earth from Mars.
	And that's where, um, how the story goes from there.
	All right.
	Well, in other words, that backs up what you were tossing around a little earlier.
	Really, Richard?
	Yeah.
	That's one of the reasons I want to go to Rome and talk to a few cardinals myself.
	Well, I would imagine that If we were to make this discovery on Mars, there would be a very great deal of religious speculation right along that line, wouldn't you think, early on?
	Yes.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Yeah, hi, gentlemen.
	It's Bob from the San Francisco Bay Area.
	Hi, Bob.
	My old stopping grounds.
	Hi, Richard.
	Hi there.
	I used to work for a fellow that I think you know that we took out Buckminster Where'd he go?
	I don't know.
	Are you there, caller?
	Yeah.
	Hello?
	Yes, go ahead.
	Please continue.
	Yeah, I took out Bucky Fuller on this guy's yacht, Sirona, this boat in San Francisco Bay.
	And, uh, that was right after he did a seminar on tetrahedrons.
	Yeah?
	Set up by the Est Foundation.
	You know, I used to work for Warner, you know?
	Ah!
	Yeah, if you want to keep me on the line, you could, uh, I could give you my phone number if you want to talk about that.
	But, uh, I know it seems like you're interested in that.
	We, uh, you have that I'll never forget the Old Navy thing.
	in the tetrahedron. I just wondered if you had anything to share about that, any results
	from that little survey or experiment you did. God, it's probably been eight or nine
	years.
	I'll never forget. I'll never forget Old Navy. I will never forget the Old Navy thing. One
	of the more interesting times we've had on the air together.
	Well, I think what it revealed is that there are things going on beneath the surface that
	we're not privy to.
	And when you strike gold like that, I mean, I haven't got any real new news except that I know there is a contingent which is following this story and from time to time do various things to try to, shall we say, advance the curve.
	That's all I can say.
	Okay.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi, how are you?
	Okay.
	We're doing great.
	I have a question about if Richard, you think that we're Martians here on Earth.
	How does that work with the whole, what does that do to Darwin's theory of evolution?
	And also, what kind of animals do you think Non-human animals were on Mars.
	Okay, Richard, first of all, what about Darwin?
	Well, this is one of the things that Paul Nelson and I had a brief discussion on in Wisconsin, because as you know, he's a creationist, and he believes, as does Hugh Ross, that life was placed here in all its various forms, like, you know, fiat lux, like Overnight, by order of a divine creator.
	Indeed.
	One of the things that we've found over the years in looking at this physics is that there are potential explanations that are alternatives to evolution for the biology that we see in the fossil record here on planet Earth.
	When it comes to Homo sapiens, it's very clear now that we have not been left alone.
	That there has been something happening.
	I mean, this is the story of 2001.
	That something from outside has influenced our evolution, as it were.
	And the only thing now left is to figure out exactly what did happen and who was involved.
	Major parts of this story, I think, are on Mars and on the Moon and in the rest of the solar system.
	And if we never get some honest scientists and And government people in charge of the space program to tell us what they're really finding, we'll know a lot more of the story.
	But if we're continually, you know, kept in the dark politically, then scientifically we can make no progress, and that's why we've got to solve the politics first.
	All right, Richard.
	I would like to give you another chance.
	You know, the debate that occurred with Dr. Ross and many others, how many hours of tapes?
	Thirteen hours.
	Thirteen hours of tapes.
	That would be very, very interesting.
	I'm looking forward to getting my copies of them, Richard.
	So, those who would like to get copies of the tapes would do so by calling a magical 800 number, right?
	Yep.
	Which is?
	Which I don't have on the screen at the moment.
	Huh.
	Well, I didn't write it down, so you're out of luck, buddy.
	Okay.
	They're going to have to get that from the archives, I guess.
	Well, it's on the Enterprise Mission website.
	Just go to www.EnterpriseMission.com and lo and behold it will take you magically to the number which actually which is 1-800 Oh, you found it!
	1-800-350-4639.
	1-800-350-4639.
	And you can still go to Enterprise and copy it down at your leisure.
	And as I said, during the month of January, I will finish editing with Laurie Hockola,
	who is my editor, who is a stunningly talented guy.
	This is 13 hours, and I guarantee you will not be disappointed.
	All right, I'll tell you what I would like to do, Richard, in addition to that.
	Now, I give you a great big fat plug, right?
	Thank you.
	I'd like to get Dr. Hugh Ross on the air, on the program, along with you.
	Sure.
	And just, like, let the two of you go at it for a while.
	That would be fun.
	Good.
	All right.
	Then I'll look forward to that.
	In the meantime, the tapes are available.
	And as always, I want to thank you for being here.
	It has been a pleasure, Richard.
	All right.
	Merry Christmas.
	Happy New Year.
	And I'm so glad you're in that chair.
	Good night, my friend.
	Good night.
	All right.
	Remember now, beginning tomorrow night, we're going to take predictions.
	Very, very serious predictions.
	And they're going to be serious because you are going to take a few moments out of your life, get quiet, And try and imagine a large event that you see coming in 2004.
	That's what we're going to be up to.
	Open lines tomorrow night, then Wednesday night as well.
	From the high desert for this night, I'm Art Bell.

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