Richard C. Hoagland joins Art Bell to argue Mars holds ancient, possibly human ruins—like the 1.5-mile "DNM pyramid" with artificial roads and a bridge—backed by high-resolution NASA images and Dr. Mark Carlado’s shape-from-shading tech, which revealed Viking-era anomalies. He claims Marsis radar on Mars Express (mapping Mars from January 4th) could confirm subsurface structures, hinting at lost civilizations or hyperdimensional physics. Biblical scholars like David Flynn link Martian findings to pre-fall human history, while callers debate origins, from Eden-like prophecies to soul transmigration. Hoagland warns of off-world entities suppressing knowledge, fearing humanity’s violence, but insists evidence exists—changing science, religion, and politics forever. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert and the great American Southwest Wall.
Good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the cosmos and all the time zones covered in the entire world, which is what we cover with this radio program Coast Code Bam.
I'm Art Bell, filling in for George Norrie, who, I'm not sure, may be time traveling.
Actually, I contacted the doctor in question who's supposed to be taking George back, and I said, look, instead of the 50s or whatever it is George wanted, take it back to zero.
All the way back to the time of Christ.
See, that's what I really want to know about, so.
Maybe we'll be seeing George again?
Maybe not.
Just kidding, folks?
Alright.
Uh, the sponsor last weekend.
The sponsor, remember that?
Too good to be true, I said so at the time.
Well, sure enough.
Uh, the good news is, it's there.
It really is exactly where the photograph said it was.
The bad news?
It seems to be an elaborate construction by a member of the Church of the Sub-Genius, a gag mail-order quasi-religion that worships a cliff artface named J.R. Bob Dobbs, for lack of a better explanation.
The old abandoned saucer home, also known as a pleasure saucer, where many a sub-genius dividal has no doubt been held, can be seen in detail, and it gives a fine, you know, URL, but it's the same photograph we have.
So it really is there.
I knew it.
Now, this story broke just a little before airtime tonight.
The headline is, it's a Reuters story.
Officials feared Las Vegas a target.
That's right.
U.S. government officials, of course, were concerned.
Some passengers boarding one of the Air France flights from Paris to L.A. that were canceled earlier in the week for security reasons, remember that?
Might have intended to crash-land it in, where else, Las Vegas.
On Tuesday, a day after Air France canceled six flights between Paris and L.A. at U.S. urging, officials said terrorists may be seeking a repeat of the September 11, 2001 attacks that killed about 3,000 people.
The Post said that U.S. officials noted a flight from Paris to L.A. would cross Hudson Bay and then eastern Canada before entering U.S. airspace about, we'll say over Minnesota, then swing southwest towards Southern California.
Since the routes flown by commercial airliners are closely monitored and deviations quickly checked, a hijacked flight from Paris to Los Angeles would have relatively few large populated centers to attack except the only big city on the route, which would be Las Vegas, which they would certainly consider a nice, attractive target.
So there you have it.
In World News, entire blocks of buildings lay crushed and survivors lined up blanket-wrapped bodies in the street after a really devastating earthquake leveled nearly three-quarters of the Iranian city of Bam as BAM on Friday, killing at least 5,000 people, injuring 30,000 others.
The quake also destroyed much of Bam's historic landmark, a giant medieval fortress complex of towers, domes, and walls.
San Bernardino searchers slogging through waist-high muck found six people dead Friday and looked for at least ten others.
Unfortunately, no doubt, mostly children missing after mudslides engulfed two camps in the San Bernardino Mountains in a terrifying torrent of soil, boulders, and tree trunks, all from the rains.
It has been raining, of course, in California and in Nevada.
We've had a lot of rain here.
A U.S. agricultural official said Friday, they have now quarantined the offspring of the slaughtered Holstein cow that tested positive for mad cow disease amid an intensifying search for the stricken cow's origins.
Government was trying to reassure the public about safety of the U.S. food supply.
Even as it confronts a wide ban now, get this, 90% of those who had taken beef from the U.S. now no longer do.
The Democrat candidate, Dean, is calling for aid to the beef industry.
The Democratic president candidate assailed the Bush administration for failing to set up a livestock tracking system that he said could have averted the whole current mad cow scare.
Said sports federal aid to help the American beef industry weather the storm.
Michael Jackson told 60 Minutes that he still thinks it's acceptable to sleep with children and that he would, quote, slit my wrist, end quote, before he would hurt a child.
And then, of course, a third attempt to confirm the survival of the European Mars lander failed Friday.
It occurs, folks, when a NASA spacecraft swept over the planned touchdown site on the Red Planet without picking up any signal whatsoever.
The Tiny Beagle 2, designed to search for any signs of life on Mars, was to have landed shortly before 10 p.m.
Eastern.
It was supposed to open its, that would have been on Wednesday, was supposed to have opened spread its solar wings and should have called home within just a few hours.
It, of course, did not do so.
Now, in a moment, the whole question Of the Little Beagle, the continuing U.S. mission, and the entire Mars Curse.
my phrase, Mars curse, we will review with Richard C. Hoagland, my guest, coming up in just a moment.
It's really, it almost harkens back to 1918, 1920, when a lot of people all over the world died, and they were talking a few days ago about a pandemic.
Well, I can seriously empathize with that conversation because you really feel like you want to die when you have this stuff.
And yet they're still trying desperately to point where they got some bogus stuff by mistake to import or do whatever they can to get more flu vaccine, which I guess, you know, so it's puzzling to me.
If it doesn't affect this year's flu, then what are we doing?
Now, Beagle, I mean, you know, I'm calling this a curse, Richard.
Two-thirds or better of the stuff that we or anybody else sends to Mars gets, I don't know, doesn't work, crashes into something, blows up, hits an extraterrestrial craft, or see, that's a flu hanging on, folks.
Well, I would generally agree with you that something bizarre is going on.
In fact, in our last conversation, we talked about that two-thirds of all the missions that have gone to Mars have gone kaput.
Many, many years ago, when I was a fledgling reporter, you know, just a neophyte with CBS working for Walter, they sent me out to JPL for, oh, the first time.
And I remember wandering into an office one afternoon, and I saw this blackboard.
And it had a whole bunch of equations scribbled on it.
And it had to do with the Mariner 6 and 7 at that time that were about to arrive at Mars.
This was a couple of days after the Apollo 11 landing.
And we'd all moved, all of us that had covered Apollo 11, which was incredible, up the street from Downey, where North American Rockwell had their headquarters, where I had literally built a solar system in an abandoned aircraft hangar that we could wander through.
They moved us all up the street to JPL, to Pasadena, to cover the flybys of Mars, which were literally only the second flyby that the United States had ever sent.
The first one was Mariner 4 in 1965, and this was now Mariner 6 and 7 in 1969.
So we get there, and no sooner had we arrived than there's a bulletin that they had lost contact with one of the spacecraft.
There were two spacecraft en route.
And we all rushed back to JPL because the guys had their pagers, and there were no cell phones in those days.
It was literal little beeps, and then you went and found a phone somewhere.
So we dashed back from La Canada, which is right next door to Pasadena, maybe a mile away.
We were having lunch.
We rush into the press room and we see that one of our spacecraft is missing.
Well, that afternoon I wandered up on the hill to go and do some interviews with somebody, and I happened to go by this office, and there was this blackboard.
And there was this whole list of things that might have gone wrong as to why they were no longer listening to one of the two spacecraft.
And at the top of the list, in chalk on the blackboard, was big letters G, G, G. So, of course, being young, I bit, and I said brightly, what's a G G G?
And the engineer standing at the blackboard turned and looked at me and he says, well, that's the Great Galactic Ghoul.
And what they described to me was that they had noticed That a lot of the spacecraft that we and the Russians at that time, the Soviet Union, had tried to send to Mars even as early as 1969 never made it.
And they, some wag, some clown had basically put down the idea that there was this big, you know, galactic monster out there eating spacecraft headed for Mars.
Well, it was tongue-in-cheek, of course, but over the years, as more and more missions have gone from more and more countries, the Japanese are the latest to fall prey a couple, three weeks ago, it's not much of a joke.
I mean, there is NASA, there's the United States government, there is, you know, I mean, it's got to be pretty big, Richard, to control what happens to U.S. and Russian and Japanese spacecraft on the way to Mars.
All it has to be is the right guy at the right place at the right time with a screwdriver.
Because if you're dealing with civilian programs, let's take the U.S. and the British on this latest mission, for example, where scientists would be loath to even begin, prior to the concept of terrorism, to think that civilian spacecraft headed out there where there's nothing of monetary value and nothing of social value, pure science, no one would even think of the idea of sabotage.
Except I know for a fact, reported to me from a very good source at Cape Canaveral, that during the launch of Mars Observer in 1992, just before the launch, remember Hurricane Andrew?
And they put alternate power on and air conditioning and all that.
Well, when the hurricane went south and missed Canaveral, they then unbuttoned all those precautions for the storm.
And they found that, lo and behold, somehow someone had dumped a kitchen sink full of garbage on the spacecraft sitting in the nose cone on the top of the rocket.
When they took the spacecraft back to the clean rooms there at the Cape to frantically clean it, and they had to dissemble parts of it to make sure that nothing got inside, they then found that someone somewhere, probably at JPL, had smeared Vaseline over the lens of the camera art.
The answer is, as we now know from this piddly-ass bunch of nitwits called Al-Qaeda, if you have a small but determined group that really have long-range plans and will carefully wait for years, if necessary, to put a key man in a key position as a janitor with security clearances, I mean, how many airlines now have reported, you know, stunning examples of people, employees, who are places in airports where they shouldn't be?
Remember that kid who put the box cutters on the airplane months ago?
But the very theory that would embody the final screwdriver action, essentially, you're trying to tell us occurred, would have to be gigantic in the sense of very high-level people having made a decision that, ooh, there's secret stuff on Mars and we can't let the people see it.
And so we're going to have to stop all these basecraft going up from all these different places.
And by nature, that would be a very high-level operation.
You are assuming that all the information that we're currently getting from space is the first time we've ever had this information.
If in fact it's not, if in fact there are ancient documents held in secret by secret societies passed down from generation to generation to generation.
What I'm trying to drive through here is that if there is a second group, it can't be a bunch of janitors.
It's got to be people at a pretty high level.
A, to know what's in the secret archives about what's actually on Mars, and B, to cobble together a plan to destroy so many spacecraft.
That's where Richard and I differ.
From the high desert, in the middle of the night, which is where we belong.
This is Coase.
unidentified
Coase.
Coase.
Another day of love, you take the city.
I, I live among the creatures of the night I haven't got the will to try and fight Against someone tomorrow So I guess I'll just believe it Tomorrow will never come I said night I'm living in the forest of the dreams I know the night is not as it would seem I'm living in the forest of the dreams
I'm doing something to make myself believe this night and never go from coast to coast and worldwide on the internet.
This is Coast to Coast AM with guest host Art Bell.
To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
And now, sitting in for George Norrie, here is Art Bell.
Richard C. Hoagland is my guest, and actually, we're at the very core of a very important part of this entire discussion, and that is why our spacecraft are disappearing and who or what might be doing it.
Richard, I remember you telling me that NASA actually would do different things, including launch on certain dates because they had information from the same old texts and Egyptian secret manuscripts that we talked about before, that NASA itself was arranging launches based on this ancient information.
It's got to go pretty high to make such a have such information, A, and then act on it, B. Well, but it doesn't have to be, in other words, the sabotage that we're talking about, the deliberate screwing up of missions, doesn't have to be from within NASA.
In fact, most likely it's not.
It's from an external source, either another agency or a foreign power or a group of people, you know, like al-Qaeda that just don't want us anywhere near Mars.
Remember back during Pathfinder in 97 when there was an amazing story coming out of Yemen?
The Yemeni family, the men who had taken NASA to court because they claimed that their documents proved that they owned Mars.
Well, when I say Al-Qaeda, I'm talking about a small group that are not governmental, that are simply very patient and know how to infiltrate.
When I said the janitor, who better during Andrew, when that hurricane was bearing down on the Cape, than a guy sweeping the floor to climb up that flight of stairs and dump a whole bunch of filings and shavings from his pocket, from the floor, onto that pristine spacecraft through that port?
A group with a worldwide reach that's privately funded, aren't we?
It's called terrorism.
It didn't have a name then.
Now, to something more germane, not to beat a dead horse or a mad cow here, remember Ken Johnston, the NASA astronaut that you had on, who, by the way, has now been appointed a JPL Solar System Ambassador.
This is going to be very interesting to see what happens when he actually begins to ask some hard questions.
But anyway, Ken, a few years ago, was on your show, and he talked about his sojourn at Houston, at the Manned Spacecraft Center, when the Apollo data was coming back from the moon.
Remember how he told the story that he and Thornton Page, who was a prestigious astronomer out of Wesleyan, friend of mine, I knew Thornton, I worked with him.
Thornton and he one night were previewing film for the next day's review by various mission specialists.
And on the backside of the moon from Apollo 14, he saw on this film that he had loaded up on the projector a stunning, shining city of lights on the dark side of a crater in the shadow on the far side of the moon.
And they both were stunned.
He took the film back and put it back in the vault where you had to go through multiple security to sign it in and sign it out.
The next day when he went to sign it out to show the whole team, when they got to that part of the film, the city wasn't there.
And Thornton Page, when he met him in the hall afterwards, just smiled and said, I never saw anything.
Now, Dr. Thornton Page, I found out years later, was a member of the Robertson panel, which was the high-level CIA panel convened for several days in the 1950s, in 1953, I believe, to review all UFO cases in the United States back when UFOs were considered a major security problem because they were clogging up the communications channels and preventing NORAD and other agencies from seeing real threats from the Soviet Union.
So we have a member of the agency, the CIA, who sees something with a colleague of mine and a friend of yours, and then the next day it's missing.
And Ken said he took the film out of the projector, looked at it with a microscope, and there wasn't a break, there wasn't a splice.
They had literally duplicated overnight the whole film and taken out the offending, stunning stuff.
Now that could have been agency, it could have been NASA, it could have been a combination of people in both.
The point is it happened, and someone of unimpeachable integrity who was there, who held high-level positions, vouches for that happening, and it's not the first time that he saw something weird that he later began remembering and putting in context that that should not have taken place.
beagle to it just has not I think Beagle 2, if in fact it is lost, and we don't know that yet.
In fact, about half an hour ago when you were just coming on the air, there was an overflight by Mars Odyssey, the U.S. spacecraft, over the landing site of Beagle 2 there in Ascetus, Planitia.
And by 3.30 this morning Eastern Time, which is 1.30 our time, they are supposed to tell us if Odyssey heard Beagle 2's call sign.
Now, the odds of dropping a little tiny thing the size of a barbecue pit down on a planet with a surface area equivalent to all of Earth, Mars has the same surface area as all the continents of Earth.
And the little place it was going to land, which is this plane east of Sirius Major, was almost picked at random because of the vagaries of celestial mechanics.
Remember, Beagle 2 was a hitchhiker on Mars Express.
So it had to kind of wind up on Mars where Mars Express was going, not where it really wanted to go itself.
So what Colin Pillinger, who was the scientist in charge, said a few days ago, he said, my bet is if we land anywhere on Mars, we have a better than 50-50 chance of finding life.
Now, he didn't mean big guys.
He didn't mean, you know, Martian elephants or, you know, the ruined, abandoned cities that we're talking about.
Remember, this is what the two MER missions, the two NASA rovers, the first of which is going to land again on your watch on the night of January 3rd, and the second one on January 24th, are designed to do, to find evidence of fossil life or the conditions for fossil life on Mars.
Now, what Tillinger's Beagle 2 could have done, if it survived, with its little robot arm, which they elegantly called a paw for positional adjustable workbench, somebody had to work really hard for that acronym.
Anyway, it was going to extend its paw on which There were two stereo cameras and a drill and some instrumentation designed to measure composition and really neat gadgets in an incredibly tiny space on this little arm that the beagle clamshell would extend once it landed and survived on the surface.
But it couldn't look any farther around itself physically with something called a mole, by the way, that would burrow into the soil.
The Mars Express orbiter mission, which successfully went into orbit on Christmas morning, $345 million.
Close to half a gig.
Beagle 2, $35 million.
Pocket change.
And the problem is that landing is the hardest thing.
You've got to get down to the atmosphere.
Things have to happen in sequence.
If you land wrong, if the airbag hits a rock, a sharp-edged razor blade-type rock, bang, there goes your spacecraft splat all over the surface.
So for a little amount of money, they were trying to pull off a miracle.
And I got to hand it to Colin Pillinger.
He put together an incredible team.
There's an incredible team spirit.
I feel so for these people tonight because they're sitting there desperately hoping against hope that it's merely a communications problem or a computer problem and it isn't that the spacecraft no longer exists.
But the odds are, given how many spacecraft have failed with mucho bucks, that this trying to do it on a shoestring, something went wrong somewhere in that sequence of events in the seven minutes from entering the atmosphere to landing, and through no one's fault, it simply didn't work.
It carries among its instrument array two instruments which can blow the doors off artifacts and former intelligence on Mars.
Not microbes, but the big guys.
One is the high-resolution stereo camera that we discussed last time, headed by Dr. Gerhard Newcomb, who has said in print to the BBC, in response to mainly this audience art, he is going to reimage Sidonia.
And we're going to make sure, right gang, that he does it the right way.
We're going to send him more emails and lay out exactly when and how to take pictures that will stand up in court.
The other surprise, the other amazing double whammy on the Mars Express mission is the Marsis instrument, M-A-R-S-I-S, which is an acronym that stands basically for Mars Radar.
For the first time in the history of the space program, ARC, mankind, the Europeans this time, have sent a real radar to Mars.
And what it's going to do is to probe up to three miles beneath the surface, looking at the whole globe over the next couple of years.
Now, what I find stunning about this is that our previous U.S. spacecraft were supposed to carry this kind of radar, and at the last minute, after George Schultz went to the Soviet Union and had a little meeting with Chevronazi, who was the foreign minister of the Soviet Union at that time, they pulled off the radar unit and they substituted the laser unit, which only bounced signals off the surface.
Yeah, but there's two different ways of doing things.
One is from the inside, sophisticated, smooth, without seams.
And the other is the monkey wrench.
The monkey wrench is used when you don't have access to the levers of power.
I know, but it's until the appropriate time.
We're not going to call this act here.
What I'm simply saying is now, in 2003, 2004, Europeans have got a real radar on that spacecraft which is functioning perfectly in orbit tonight and which will, if I can call up a very important email I got here, give us some pretty astonishing data.
That's why I'm saying I'm betting on Mars Express.
And if we were dealing with sabotage that had taken out Beagle, it would have been a much more important target to take out Mars Express.
Now, I don't know whether the Mars Express people have better security.
I mean, Europeans tend to be a little more security conscious than we are.
It's not finished yet.
Absolutely right.
So when we come back from the break, I'm going to read you an email that came to me by way of a source out of JPL from a high-level engineer speaking to what this Marsis radar might do.
Low-level, small group, worldwide reach, Schultz, Shevard Nazi, these are pretty high-level guys.
I don't know.
I think this whole thing is, if that's what it is, has to be, by its very nature, very high-level.
But that's just me.
From the high desert in the middle of the night, trucking along like a freight train in the dark, this is Coastal.
unidentified
I think it's time to get ready To realize just what I have found I have to get on the care of what I am It's all clear to me now My heart is on fire My soul's like a wheel that's turning My
love is on fire Be it sight, sand, smell, or touch, the something inside that we need so much.
The sight of a touch, or the scent of the sand, or the strength of an oak when it moves deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, to lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing, to have all these things in our memory's heart, and they use them to help us to fight.
Yeah!
Ride, ride, that's your soul.
Take this place, on this trip, just call me.
Ride, take a pillow.
Ride, ride, that's my seat, it's my dream.
From Coast to Coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with guest host Art Bell.
To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at Area Code 775-727-1295.
The first-time caller line is Area Code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell, from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country Sprint Access Number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
And now, sitting in for George Norrie, here is Art Bell.
And this is, I want you to listen very closely to me right now, all right?
Beginning tomorrow night, and then Wednesday night as well, I'm going to be here.
And during that time period, we're going to do what we traditionally do in the time period between Christmas and the new year, and that is make predictions.
It's your opportunity to make a prediction about something you think a major event that will occur in the year 2004.
Now, listen to me, doggonnet, listen to me.
I want a good hit rate this year.
And what that means is that you just can't pull this prediction from any old orifice.
I want you to sit down, spend a little quiet time, let your mind go as blank as you can get it, and then reach way out into that area from which such things come, I guess.
And really try and give me a good prediction.
I want the hit rate way up this year, and so it requires your cooperation.
We'll begin taking the predictions, which are duly assigned and numbered and recorded and kept for a year in the Bell Family Ball.
So this year, I want your cooperation.
That means that you really take the time before you make your call, whether it's on Sunday or next Wednesday as the year and calendar flips, to make your prediction a good one.
A thoughtful one.
One that you've plucked from that special area that predictions, such predictions come from.
And if you really spend a little time on it, we'll get some good predictions.
You know, in case anybody thinks these arguments are trivial and not meaningful, you have to mind.
Demetris from Queens, New York says, in case building rubbles or Martian civilization exist on Mars, how is this going to affect our lives, our beliefs here on Earth?
Is it better they sabotage and hide the truth from us?
So, you know, that's really a good question, Richard.
This great argument we're having about whether it's a cabal, whether it's an accident, whether it's just bad luck with regard to Mars and what you and I think is on Mars, buried Martian cities.
I mean, it's not a small matter for humanity.
If there are buried cities on Mars, that's a really big matter for humanity, isn't it?
Well, it's not only a big matter, but it's something that I really wanted to get into tonight and do it with enough time because we've got plenty of time tonight.
I want to talk in a few minutes exactly to that question because where the rubber meets the road is these are not decisions being made in a vacuum.
These are not people who are pulling strings and keeping us from knowing things or knowing it until a certain time because they have nothing better to do.
There's a strategy here.
There's a political agenda.
And there has been, apparently, since the dawn of the space program.
And it goes back to your favorite document, Art, the Brookings Report.
And, you know, when I say that the Beagle 2 may just have fallen prey to not enough money, it's not that I don't believe it could have been sabotaged.
I'm looking at the one that they should have aimed for, which is the one that is going to give us some extraordinary information if the system is honest and if the Europeans are as independent as they appear to be these days.
Now, while I was on the break, while we were in news, I had a call from one of our very important sources in Washington who has given us some very important information over the years, and I won't bore you with all the hits that he has been right about, but this is one of the guys.
And he gave me two pieces of information.
He says, use with art, he says, the metaphor of the vice.
He said, this is work from both ends, the policy end and the terrorist end.
And what they can't achieve with legitimate policy decisions, a la the Schultz Chevronazi meeting, where the instrument was quietly changed out and nobody who was not supposed to know knew anything.
It was seamless.
What they can't achieve with that, they then hire a bunch of thugs to do the hard way with plausible deniability.
The end result is that we don't know what's out there.
NASA, most of NASA doesn't know what's out there.
The people working on these missions, most of them, don't know what's out there until someone decides it's the appropriate time.
Now, let me tell you item number two that he told me.
Remember, this is a guy who's very well connected.
Something in that very complex chain of events from entry to landing over those seven minutes, all it would take is one little relay, one little computer glitch, one little latch that doesn't open on time.
You know, these things are infernally complicated.
And again, if you have a lot of money to throw, you know, at these things, you increase your odds of success because you hire more people, you do more testing, you think of more unthinkable things.
I mean, there were so many parts of this they didn't even have an opportunity to test, that they've admitted they didn't have the money or the time to test.
So, you know, now it's conceivable, it's certainly more than conceivable, that someone doesn't want us to know there are microbes on Mars.
But when we look at the trend curve, the official trend curve, we have gone since 1997, inexorably, mission by mission by mission, closer to the admission that there is some kind of life currently on Mars.
Okay, well, we had said in our Mars paper, our title paper, which is on the Enterprise Mission website for those who want to read it, that when Odyssey got there, it would find water not merely at the poles and down at some latitude, but it would find two clusters of hydrogen or ice at the equator, 180 degrees apart.
And we based that prediction on these weird dark stains.
I want to credit Efren Palermo and Jill England for doing the Yeoman service and doing all those maps and helping us make that very specific prediction.
Now, the three of us have said, the four of us actually, because Mike Berry is in the mix here too, have said that those dark stains are water.
In fact, I published on Enterprise in the summer of 2000 the first claim, and we sent press releases all over the world, every major news agency on the planet, that we had seen evidence of liquid water stains, stunning silence from everybody, including NASA.
Well, a year or so ago, papers started appearing at these various conferences saying, well, these things might not be avalanches after all.
Let's just look at the life angle for a second here.
Without water, you ain't got life.
We now know that Mars is a planet awash in water.
Most of it is frozen, but near the equator, if these two places, these poles apart places, it appears to be wet.
The data shows that during the summer, when the temperatures are above the freezing point, you get these dark stains.
And when the temperature goes down, the stains disappear.
They behave like liquid water.
Well, there's so much water now available in these niches that the next data point that we would predict for either the NASA missions arriving in a few days or the Beagle 2 mission, which was supposed to have arrived Christmas morning, is that they would find microbes.
In fact, Pillinger was so confident that he was going to find evidence of living microbes, it's almost like he already had a heads up from somewhere that it was a foregone conclusion if he just got his spacecraft down there safely.
So I see officially the tidal wave here, mixing our metaphors, Natalie, is that the next data point has got to be we either confirm fossil evidence of former microbes, that's with the MER missions, or current microbes, which would have been Beagle 2.
Now, the huge leap, of course, is what we're expecting, which is at some point we've got to get pregnant with ruins, artifacts.
Which brings me to this remarkable memo coming out of JPL.
Let me give you a little background.
This came to me from a source, and I don't have permission to use this source's name.
It's not the same source that just called me, by the way.
It's another source.
You can't do this without sources, folks.
Anyway, and I don't have permission to quote the guy's name from JPL, but I can give you where he works.
He is a senior engineer on the MRO project, which is the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, which is the next NASA mission, unmanned mission, going into orbit around Mars in 2005, and it will be able to photograph in color and in stereo art objects five inches across.
This source says, and I'm quoting now this email directly, since, and this was sent on the 21st of December, since Mars Express with Marsus is going to be arriving in four days, I suggest you follow the progress of Marsus more intently than any of the other experiments, including MER.
That's the two NASA rover missions.
This is a NASA guy saying basically ignore the rover missions.
Focus on the Europeans.
Focus on the Marsus radar.
He says, he goes on to say, Beagle 2, if it works, won't tell us nearly as much as a good ground-penetrating radar.
Remember how the Sears-C, that's S-I-R-C, L-band radar that was on the shuttle, Earth orbit, found ancient buried Roman question mark roads that have been covered with thick sand in the Sahara?
If this mission should succeed and should get such photographs of underground cities that you and I both believe are there, then presumably somebody at some, I would say, high level has made a decision that it's time for the world to find out that there was a civilization on Mars, or it wouldn't be happening.
So now the model that I'm looking at now, the equally attractive idea, theory, is that because of what this administration has done in Iraq and other places, and the resultant reaction from Europe, which has been so scathing, and how this administration has thumbed its nose, you know, and the latest thing, of course, is these contracts, you know, to rebuild Iraq.
Basically, we've told those guys, you know, sorry you're out of luck.
You weren't with us when we went in.
You're not going to be with us on the Gravy train.
The wild card here is, are the Europeans really pissed off enough to get off the plan and simply throw their own monkey wrench politically into the works and make public, regardless of what the plan is, what they find on Mars?
And that's the possibility that I think is at least 50-50.
We have no idea what the quid pro quo is and whether it's changed these politics.
But let me tell you why I think maybe the Europeans have the bit in their teeth and they want to break cover and come out with some real, honest to God data.
It goes back to Professor Newcomb.
When he gave his quote to the BBC and said that he had received emails from all over the world, that means this audience, guys and gals, it means you, and that these people had told him NASA is lying about Mars.
He did not have to say that, as you and I agreed the other night.
And I take that as a signal, both to us and to the administration, that there are surprises coming down the road when this spacecraft goes into operation in a couple of weeks.
They'll let us come on Coast and on MSNBC where I've been invited and who knows where.
They'll let the internet crowd have a field day with it.
There will be long, careful deliberation.
There will be a year or two of analysis of these anomalies.
And we will have basically broken the ground and gotten people used to the idea of the grassroots that we're looking at maybe what we think we're looking at.
All of us who are curious about our own origins and why we're here and how we got here and what we're supposed to be doing and, you know, the big unanswered questions.
The End So, Richard, there's Larry over there in Akron who's saying, look, makes no difference.
Don't care what's on Mars.
Have to go to work tomorrow.
Have to pay my bills.
Don't care what's on Mars.
Why should he care?
Why should Larry care?
Why is it important?
That's really the center question amidst all this that we've got to answer, I think.
Without the space program, he wouldn't have a computer.
He would have a dial-up telephone.
He would be charged probably $50 to call Europe.
He'd be paying $12, $18, $20 to call California, if he ever calls California.
In other words, the space program has made the society so much richer.
And everybody out there who bought their loved ones and relatives and brothers and sisters and grandmothers and grandfathers, all these high-tech toys for Christmas, you wouldn't have had all that stuff if it weren't for John Kennedy saying, we're going to the moon.
And these are all at coastcoastam.com, right on the website there.
Can't miss them.
Picture number one, and they're numbered sunrise color image confirms high reflectivity and original geometry of eastern surface of the face.
The face on Mars.
Now remember, this is a picture revisited.
We had this on before, and it is remarkable in that the sun is not at an angle to be illuminating what you're seeing on the one side of the face on Mars.
Well, unless the thing was solid obsidian, which is of course a volcanic extrusion, and there's no evidence of volcanic activity in the Sidonia region, you can talk to our geologists if you don't believe that.
This thing looks like it's burnished metal.
Now, what things that look statue-like also glow like burnished metal?
Artificial burnished metal statues.
In other words, this is an extraordinary piece of evidence.
But as with all good science, we need confirmation.
So what we have asked, Dr. Newcomb, who is running that camera now in orbit around Mars, as I speak right now, there's this amazing color stereo camera capable of giving us a color image 10 times better, 10 times closer, and in stereo than this picture that you're seeing on the website.
And that's what's so important.
Now, if you go to picture number two, this is a larger chunk of the whole image art.
At the top, you see the face there.
And you see on the lower right, there's something that's very bright and glowing.
Now, if you go to the next picture, number three, this is a wide shot prepared by Dr. Malin, oddly enough, from one of his surveyor wide-angle camera shots.
And it shows the basic interesting stuff we've identified at Sidonia.
The face, you can see it there, the cliff, the pholis, the city with the pyramids.
And then down below the face, you see this DNN pyramid.
This is now an image from Mars Odyssey that was taken a couple of years ago, maybe a year and a half ago.
And it demonstrated that there was all kinds of symmetries in this DNM pyramid.
By the way, the scale, the short sides are about a mile long, and the long side is almost two miles long, not counting the red extension up above, which shows now there's a platform this thing is sitting on.
And the inset in the lower left corner is from the Viking data back in 1976, transformed into a three-dimensional image by Dr. Mark Carlado with his shape-from-shading technology, which is the same technology which NASA uses and the DOD uses and all that.
So you can see this thing is a pyramid-looking thing, but it's enormous.
And I've noted with a couple of arrows there the corresponding features, that weird hole on the southeast edge that appears to go inside.
And, you know, anyway, if you go to the next picture, this is now a sequence of three images that was given to us a few weeks ago by Dr. Malin with the Mars Surveyor camera.
The image resolution here is about one and a half meters per pixel.
And the three strips were put together by Keith Laney.
And what's important about the center strip, in fact, you actually honed in on it, this thing has five or six buttresses, depending upon how you count them.
And they look very, very geometric.
The one on the bottom right, the one in the center photo strip, we're going to show you an enlargement now that was made by Steve Troy and some graphics that were done over the last couple of days, drawings, that basically just take that center strip and expand it so you can see the detail around this buttress.
And if you see the yellow overlays, those correspond to the graphics that he has done on the left and the right.
And at the very top image is just the photo enlarged.
Then what he's done is to overlay a drawing of the detail in the photo.
And as you go down progressively each frame, he fades the under photo deeper and deeper so that you're seeing more and more of his artistic graphic representations.
Now what's astonishing to me is how damn artificial this looks.
It has a rectilinear pattern, it's got coherent structures, and it's got what look for all the world like freeways going into that buttress.
Now Malin said that his two criteria, I mean this was years ago in the Washington Post after we held our first press conference in 1988.
He told the Washington Post that he would only accept the idea of artificiality on Mars if he, one, could see repeating rectilinear geometry, and two, he could see the roads.
And what I need to tell people is that in the next few days, we're going to put up a very detailed analysis by Keith Laney and myself and Steve on the Enterprise Mission website.
And you'll have a lot of opportunity to peruse at your leisure, comparing these images, comparing terrestrial analogs.
For instance, the structure around this buttress, I've been groping in my mind for what it reminds me of.
It reminds me of a lot of the rectilinearities around the Great Pyramid on the satellite imagery looking down on Egypt.
He said a year and a half ago that Newcomb's camera will be able to take new infrared imagery of Sidonia to compare with the visual imagery and will be able to tell us if what we saw, what was leaked to us on that famous image, Is in fact real.
So let's keep that in our gray box for the time being until we get confirmation.
Science is always about confirmation, which is why it's so politically important that this audience keep emailing Dr. Newcomb and reminding him that this is a mystery whose time has come.
Now, back in 1987, when I first published Monuments and I was doing my initial analysis, by the way, that's the Monuments of Mars, a Sitting on the Edge of Forever, a book that I always forget to plug, which is the chronology of this independent investigation going back now 20-some years.
Anyway, in that first edition in 87, I predicted that this structure, this incredible five-sided structure, was in fact an arcology, an enclosed artificial building of stupendous size, built on Mars because that was appropriate to the Mars environment when whoever did this was there doing it.
It has now taken till 2003 for Dr. Malin to release to us from Surveyor an image with enough resolution, as you can see here, to verify that in fact on this structure we see myriad replicating cell-like features looking for all the world like the exposed interior of a multiple honeycombed-like arcology on Mars.
And Newcomb, in color, at the right phase angle, and in stereo, will be able to confirm all this under a political system which has not been historically dissembling to us for the last 20 years on this subject.
That's why that camera and that individual is so important.
And the fact that we've got a healthy Mars Express spacecraft in orbit around Mars tonight is a major step forward in maybe finally answering this huge question.
Which, of course, brings us to the question you posed earlier.
There have been more books written on the subject, are we alone?
Every NASA mission that leaves, there will be a press conference, and somebody at one of those press conferences will say, oh, and this mission will, you know, give us more information on is the human race alone?
NASA has sold its entire soul and its budget on the concept of people want to know the answer to that question.
It's right up there along with, you know, why are we here?
Why do we exist?
It's almost art-like as if the human race was really, really, really lonely.
And until it finds something that it can compare itself with, it is missing a critical part of its own identity.
And there's this subliminal part of each of us that yearns to know the truth behind that question.
And I mean, the polls show us when we did the conference in Wisconsin a couple of months ago, where you were predicting that we were going to have some fireworks because religious people of a fundamentalist fan would come up against this question.
It really is a critically important question for the human race.
All of us.
unidentified
All of us.
Before I get stuck with me now.
You wanna stay out with your plans and friends I'm telling you we gotta be in the end Baby, when you're near the clouds There's no shadow, there's no way Who would come to me?
Baby, you'll see Who's gonna help you through the night?
Who's gonna love you, love you?
Who's gonna love you, love you?
Who's gonna love you?
Who's gonna love you?
From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet.
This is Coast to Coast AM with guest host Art Bell.
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And now, sitting in for George Nori, here is Art Bell.
You see, I don't have this iron-clad religious faith.
Well, I do, I think I generally believe in a maker and a creator.
Beyond that, I don't know about every word written in the Bible.
And I do want the answers to these questions, and they are very important to me.
Who are we?
How did we get here?
What's our destiny?
What are we supposed to be doing?
Is this a giant classroom?
I mean, what's up?
You know, these kinds of questions.
I really do want those answers.
And while I don't agree with Richard on every aspect of his presentation with regard to the secrecy behind all of this and the relationship, for example, to Egypt and a lot of other aspects that he will discuss with regard to the Mars mystery, can we call it that?
Whether or not there is a civilization that at one time thrived on Mars is critically important to answering some of the aforementioned questions.
So I'm with Richard on some of it.
There's something on Mars.
I'm pretty well convinced of that.
And therefore, this subject is not only viable, but critical to all of us.
And that's what we're kind of right in the middle of right now.
Okay, well, the temperature of those emails is out of sight, Richard.
They think all of this is absolute bunk.
Not only were there never living things on Mars or beings or intelligent beings, but such an idea, it goes against everything they know and they believe and they were told.
Genesis explains every word of how it happened, and that's literally how they believe it occurred, and there are no others.
Well, see, this is the discussion that has to occur, and we formally began it, you know, from our side at the University of Wisconsin last October, October 25th.
What I had planned to do is to, for all those people that wanted the tapes of that conference, which is 13 hours, I think it's 10 or 12 tapes, something like that, I'd hoped to get them to everybody by Christmas.
And as you know, the flu got me instead, and so we're a month behind.
But it was an extraordinary day that went from like 9 in the morning till almost midnight.
As the day went on, he started out very dogmatic and very rigid.
And in the three-hour panel discussion, you will see that he actually began softening at the edges as he saw evidence and he saw a logic train that did not contravene his fundamental religious perspectives.
Mike Heiser and David Flynn were eloquent in demonstrating with literal chapter and verse from the Bible.
How, well, someday maybe we can have a debate or a discussion.
But until that time, you know, if anybody really wants to see how a fundamentally religious perspective confronts Sidonia.
That tape would be worth seeing.
And it can be seen.
In fact, if I can break into a commercial here, we can actually make it available if you call an 800 number.
Get a pencil and paper here, and I'll give it to you in a second.
The most important thing is, as you know, Hugh's perspective is that we're the only thing that's it.
Earth was prepared by the deity for human beings.
We reign supreme in the cosmos and the universe.
We are the only galaxy and the only place where we can see things.
I mean, it's an extraordinary litany of numbers and logic that he uses for mainstream science to defend his religious perspective that we're it.
So, of course, I asked him, but could not God, if he wanted to glorify himself, have created humanity in more than one place?
Because, as you know, my model, art, is that we're looking on Mars at stuff that we ourselves created.
And then David Flynn came in, and his thesis is that what we're seeing on Mars is humanity before the fall.
That the splendiferous, incredible architecture and science and engineering that is implied by the scale and the kinds of things we're seeing in these images would only be possible for a human species before the original sin, before the fall of Adam.
And this kind of took Ross aback, because obviously he had never really come up against this idea that you could divide human beings in those different eras to different places.
The Bible does not specifically exclude that kind of approach, it turned out from those that are textual biblical scholars like Heiser and like Flynn.
So, look, if you're interested in this dialogue, which we started in October, and you want to help us, what I want to do is to frankly get a lot of people in this audience to get these tapes and then send copies to various universities around the country and churches and theological groups and prayer groups and whomever and have us invited on the road to go and speak on this subject with other
people from other faiths, from other denominations, from, you know, ultimately I want to include Islam in this.
I want to include the Jewish community.
I want to have this discussion joined as to what this means at the most fundamental spiritual level when we confront the fact that the human species is a lot grander and has had a most astonishing history that up until now has been kept either by design or by accident come off of it.
Well, I'm speaking now directly to what the data is saying.
For someone to build an inhabited structure a mile on a side, two miles long, containing several cubic miles with all the stunning suburbs you see around it and all the filigree, even in ruins, there is an awesome, aching splendor there.
It just cries out for a majesty of accomplishment.
And when you read the Bible and you read the concept of humanity before and humanity after, from Flynn's perspective, this fits perfectly the concept of a fall, a fall from some extraordinary height where we were created as the chosen of God, put in a place where everything was at our beck and call.
There was no want, there was no suffering, there was no privation, and then something happened.
Well, scientifically, I can defend the idea that something awful happened, and we are here as refugees as the result of that something awful happening.
So whether you're coming at it from the religious point of view, and you want to finally know, and in God's good grace and time, ultimately he will reveal it, right?
That's what those people believe.
Or you come at it from the scientific point of view, Which is where I'm coming from, which is we have a right to know.
You know, we wouldn't have been, we wouldn't be thinking rational beings with the capability of asking these questions and finding the answers unless we were supposed to find the answers.
So, no matter which side of the coin you want to look at, ultimately, the knowing is where we have to go.
For folks that want to really get into this and see how we discuss for the first time with religious scholars the concept of the Bible, Sidonia, the fall, Satan, you know, the whole everything was thrown in the mix.
If you leave your name and phone number, they'll call you back.
And I promise we will have this out before the end of January.
And I really want a lot of messengers in this audience to send copies to their universities, their churches, wherever they think this discussion should be joined, because the Europeans have the wherewithal to bring it right to our front door if they so choose.
What you need to do is to have him on the show, maybe have me on, and we'll discuss the specifics.
But seeing the actual evidence and then seeing in context how the text in the Bible don't confront it but actually allow for it depending upon how they're interpreted.
I would bet you a very great deal of money, Richard, that if I were to have him on the program right now and ask him if that conference changed his core beliefs, his hard, fundamental core beliefs, there'd be a great big no way.
At one point in the conversation, I decided to make things intriguing, and I said, okay, look, you, I said, I will bet you a dinner at the fanciest restaurant you can pick out anywhere in Los Angeles that I'm right and that you're going to come around to seeing that it's there.
Remember, here is a gentleman who was connected by way of Caltech and JPL.
He wanted to put a two-year limit.
Two years is when the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, which will photograph things the size of this laptop in my lap, will be orbiting Mars.
And there will be no doubt if we don't get the data from Dr. Newcomb and Mars Express, the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter is being touted to get this as the people's camera.
They are already soliciting on the JPL website for people to submit targets for that camera to photograph.
And they have an elaborate plan for involving the general public in an ebb and flow discussion of what they're seeing on Mars from that stunning, incredible camera, which just happens to fall at the end of Hugh Ross's two-year cutoff.
And I've interviewed Dr. Ross, and I just know that what he believes so passionately has not changed.
And nor would that be the case with most religious fundamentalists.
Now the average Catholic out there is going to write in and say, hey, no problem.
I don't have any problem with this kind of information.
It doesn't conflict with what I believe.
And that's quite correct.
But that average Catholic needs to understand that there are fundamentalists in many faiths, not just Christianity, who would be extremely challenged by the information.
And I wanted to start with the biggest because who are we really is a question that everyone wants religious or scientific or an agnostic or even an atheist.
And I believe fundamentally that staring us in the face, pun intended, some major new answers are waiting for us on Mars tonight, and we have to go and find out what those answers are.
Now, in a slightly lesser realm, you know, there's a lot of practical benefits that we could garner from unearthing, literally, an extraordinary high-level civilization.
Well, every previous civilization we found on Earth has been more primitive than we are.
You know, if you go to the Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Mayans, you know, these are Bronze Age cultures.
These are, you know, extraordinarily learned cultures in many areas.
The Mayans, of course, look at their mathematics and their astronomical systems.
But they really don't answer fundamental questions of the 21st century.
I want to read you an email that came in a couple days ago from someone who I think very eloquently speaks To what I want to talk about now.
His name is Mark Chuddy.
He's in Little Rock, Arkansas, and he doesn't know I was going to do this, but I wanted to do it just because I just thought it was very appropriate.
He says, Dear Richard, it's approximately 4:55 a.m. Central Standard Time in Little Rock, Arkansas.
I just finished donating to your site via PayPal, and I am currently listening to you converse with Art Bell on Coast the morning of December 21st.
I thoroughly enjoy your passion for Sidonia and pray that your wishes are granted, rather illuminated, with the new photographs that are being taken of Mars.
I am on total disability, four spine surgeries, and the implantation of a morphine pump for pain relief.
And late-night listening of Coast has gotten me through many a sleepless night.
Thank you for taking on the good old boy network of NASA.
As a side note, the VA graphics under your direction have created a stunning new look to your website.
My hat is off to you.
I look forward to contributing on a regular basis, kindest regards Mark.
Now, Mark is in an incredible medical condition.
The answer to Mark's problem, which lies in nerve regeneration art, may well lie in what we find on Mars.
If we had access to the libraries, particularly if they're libraries dealing with Homo sapiens, human beings, and a stunning technology, a medical science that is light years beyond that which we currently can do here and now, and it was a full-blown technology.
It's not like, for instance, they're carrying out certain experiments on the space station in zero gravity in the hopes that somehow that will contribute down the road toward this medical problem or that medical problem, et cetera, et cetera.
But if we were to find access to the science and technology of a species that was so far ahead of us that they could build encapsulated cities miles on a side and miles in the sky, the impact for all kinds of fundamental human problems on this planet would be incalculable.
We literally would only have to bring the knowledge back and put it out there.
We would have textbooks, we would have videos, we would have literal living records because this is a high-tech civilization.
And high-tech civilizations will record more and more and more of what they do if our own experience is any guide here.
And given that our model says we're dealing with a human civilization, we can extrapolate from what we're doing that we simply did it better then than we're doing it now and we did more of it.
So if you now look at that, take it from the medical, which goes everything from Mark's problem to the fundamental problem, which is, do we really have to die?
Remember the night that you had the anti-aging guy on?
Is it not possible in that milieu that at the very least human beings lived a lot longer and not with pain and suffering and senescence?
In other words, growing old, growing feeble, growing less virile, growing less capable?
Even the Bible suggests that now this is where David Flynn's perspective comes back in because he says, and he did a brilliant lecture, which again is on one of these tapes, illustrating how a lot of the textual support for these miracles in the Bible is answered if they are referring to a pre-fall state for humanity lying just next door.
And, you know, for Mark there in Little Rock tonight, that is a real doable thing because we wouldn't have a learning curve.
wouldn't have to spend years figuring out how to make this work of course would require uh...
Imagine if the autonomous systems he's creating could be incorporated into a rover, which could be landed at Sidonia and could literally find the libraries, plug into the crystals or the CDs or whatever matrix that this data is recorded, and it will likely be underground.
Because if you look at the close-ups now we're getting of that area of the DNM, there's an incredible pattern which indicates we're looking at a surface porous structure that is hiding a lot of stuff beneath.
So if we find stuff underground, and you would want to use robots probably because of the problem of potential landslides and cave-ins and stuff like that, even when you have a manned expedition, you're going to have robotic help to go to places that are too dangerous for you to go to until they're made safe.
Well, according to, again, my sources, that is all absolutely true.
The good news is, according to one contingent, the Bob Zubrin contingent, you know who Bob Zubrin is.
He's the avid.
He's almost as rabbit about Mars as I am.
The engineer who's been trying to sell for years and years the so-called concept of Mars Direct, how to get to Mars cheaply and quickly with current technology.
He says that we passed a kind of a drop-dead date on the 17th.
The fact that the president did not use the 100th anniversary at Kitty Hawk to announce this grand plan, which he claims was a basic stopgap effort by NASA to head off a real decision.
You know, to say we're going to go back to the moon in 20 years is basically a meaningless pronouncement.
It would be out of his administration, out of the next administration.
So there would have been no commitment of resources, no going to the Congress for money and actual technology and all that.
Well, Zubrin now says that having passed that date, the people at NASA that are trying to head off the Mars option have lost.
And that, in fact, it is a very viable option that if enough people let the White House know that they want to go to Mars, that by the time of the State of the Union, we could have that on the table and the President could well enunciate it as his big vision having passed through this window that NASA set up, this kind of trap that they tried to set up for the White House.
Now, of course, if the President had in his pocket remarkable geographic subterranean anomalies, well, then you could really say Mars with some zip in your voice, couldn't you?
Now, the reason for doing this, I am told again by our sources, is because this administration is fearful that the United States is losing its perennial supremacy in the world.
Europe, by the way, not only has got a successful mission around Mars tonight, Mars Express, did you know that they're a major player on the NASA mission to Saturn, which will get there on July 1 of 2004?
The Huygens probe, which is named after Christian Huygens, who was a very famous astronomer back in the 16th century, is going to plunge into Titan's atmosphere and soft land on Titan.
It is a European ESSA, European Space Agency mission.
Well, if you think we don't have a lot of control over the Europeans, because they might be miffed at us, then imagine how little control we have over the Chinese.
And so there has to be that's why the the um um uh speaker uh speaker of the house uh uh ha yeah the speaker of the hou not speaker what's his name uh Tom DeLay.
He's the um imperative, meaning that he's part, Cheney has been met with delay over the last several weeks and had several conversations.
And Dick Cheney, vice president, is the guy running this analysis that's going to present to the president whatever options for a revitalized NASA and a big vision, a big mission will be ultimately announced.
So if delay is on board, you know that the Republicans are going to be behind it with funding, and it's being looked at as a kind of a parallel to the strategic high ground of keeping the United States supreme technologically.
What you would do is you would redesign the shuttle system.
You would take off the orbiter, and you would turn the shuttle, the engine, the tanks, the guts of it, with an upper stage into a heavy-lift launch vehicle that would be the equivalent of the Saturn V. You would then, in Zubrin's vision, send a remote habitat to Mars first.
It would land autonomously.
It would begin to make rocket fuel.
And when you got signals from telemetry that the lights were on and it was safe to come home, you would then send your crew via a second launch to go to Mars a year or two later.
And you'd already have waiting for you the means to come home.
You would make your rocket fuel out of what's available on Mars, like living off the land.
A little bit like the Lewis and Clark expedition.
You know, Lewis and Clark, when Tom Jefferson penned personally, sat in the White House and penned the instructions for Lewis and Clark to explore this continent and gave us eventually the United States of America, he knew that they could live off the land, that they didn't have to take everything with them and bring it back.
That's Zubrin's model, and it works.
Now, NASA has other plans in parallel, which are the nuclear option, nuclear rockets and that kind of thing.
But we don't have to wait for that.
We can go to Mars with what we know now safely and relatively inexpensively, provided there is the political vision.
And if there are cities waiting for us, and if the Europeans are going to basically hold out the red flag and say, look what's there, this nation cannot afford to not rise to the challenge.
And I think that's what you're hearing echoes of in all these trial balloons in the Washington Post and the New York Times and the wire service.
With regard to the ongoing European mission, by what date might we, the public, have, I don't know, the smoking gun or the clear photographic evidence?
Well, the only hard evidence we have is how long it's going to take the spacecraft to get into the right orbit to begin its mapping mission, which will be January 4th.
And one of the things that I have specifically asked when I'm there, this is going to be after Steve Bassett's political conference in Washington in April.
We're going to fly directly from Washington to Rome and then back to Washington.
I have asked to speak with the Italian members of the Mars Express team, both the Marsis people and the camera people, to lay out for them the photographs of what we want them to help us confirm.
And I have been told for many years that the Europeans are much more open to these ideas than Americans, particularly the NASA people, have been.
And my emails and faxes over the years have confirmed this and requests for interviews from magazines and all that.
Once in her life, she musters a smile for his nostalgic tear.
Never come and dare what you wanted to say.
Wanted to realize it never really was.
She had a place in his life.
Ain't got no trouble in my life.
No foolish dream to make me cry.
I'm never frightened or worried.
I know I always get by.
I get up cool down.
Something gets in my way, I'm awhile.
Don't let life get me down.
I'm taking the way that I found it I got music in me I got music in me I got music in me I got music in me I got music in me I got music in me They say that life is a circle I
ran in the way that I found it But I'm moving a straight line Keeping my feet Found me on the ground I hit up, hit up, come down I got words in my head So I say that From coast to coast, and worldwide on the internet.
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And now, sitting in for George Norway, here is Art Bell.
Well, I mean, there is a group out there, Richard, and they don't like you at all.
But on the other hand, the way I look at this is you're the only really passionate person that I know that's saying the things that you're saying, and they are non-trivial.
The only data we have at the moment is Dr. Carlado's shape-from-shading technology.
That's why the German camera on the Mars Express mission and Dr. Newcomb's willingness to re-photograph Sidonia in stereo is going to be so important because we'll have actual ground truth, real stereo imagery if he does what he says he's going to do.
The question is, have you ever heard any of the parallels between the Nephilim of Genesis chapter 6, which is after the fall of man, but that the sons of God or otherwise the creatures from the heavens who came to the earth and created Nephilim.
Well, here's something that might be kind of interesting to think about.
These Nephilim, if they are spiritual creatures and if they've come here through some kind of a porthole, when they enter into our existence, there's still laws of physics and laws of science that they have to comply with.
So they have to take on a body or they have to actually take some kind of craft to fly in because they can't just float through the air.
So there's certain laws of physics that they have to comply with.
So when they come to Earth, they come in crafts and they actually have physical type bodies that they're able to interact with human beings and create the secondary race of people that's called the Nephilim.
You need to really see what David Flynn said in Wisconsin because it's exactly up, you know, that plus his book.
Flynn has a very excellent book out where he goes literally chapter and verse through all the textual references that refer back to Sidonia, including those in the Bible.
I mean, this, all right, we've had two callers so far who say they're Christians, right, Art?
Most of them appear to be open-minded and want to know, which is where I'm coming from.
One, I guess you first off have to say that by definition, for all the Christians out there, I'm sure I'm going to make them mad, God or Jesus or Big Daddy Jr. and the spook are aliens.
By definition, if God created the world in seven days, he's not from the world.
He's not from Earth, which means if the face on Mars has anything to do with the human race, and we basically terraformed Earth, God, by definition, is an extraterrestrial.
You know, which means that one of the reasons that people hate you, Richard, and sad to say you are, which I'm never going to be used to hearing you as a guest host, but you guys, you're sitting right there in the forefront, pulled to shatter the world's religious belief system and, you know, kind of come forward and give answers to people that are looking for them.
So that's why I believe that most religious fanatics are afraid of you.
But it kind of brings me to another thing.
Sitting in this truck, I've got a lot of time to think about a lot of things.
And I'm so happy to be able to look forward for good or ill instead of just listening to people narrow-mindedly reacting to what's already happened.
Anyway, could I, I'd like to make a suggestion as to how knowledge about Mars having been inhabited by people, perhaps, might actually please the fundamentalists.
And then I want to ask a big question, if I could.
If it turns out that this is the case, I would think that the fundamentalists could feel validated and perhaps even triumphant if they can correlate the things that are in the Bible, like the Garden of Eden, let's say, like what the first callers have talked about, and say, see, it really was true.
Well, remember, our thesis is that some people know more than the rest of us.
They have access to some information somehow handed down through time.
Is it possible some of the early Mars scholars like Scaparelli, who so determinedly argued that those canals were artificial, that he knew something and that he made those maps so that someday that knowledge would come full circle?
well the ladies right i mean if they were to discover that to mars was the garden of eden for example uh...
it would validate a great deal it Sure.
That would be wild.
But that's a great big if.
And you had a big question.
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Yeah, right.
And may I also say that I think that we could say that if we really had been visited by aliens, that the big guys might be cloned drones and the grays might be android robots created by the original inhabitants of Mars.
And maybe what they're doing, if the cattle mutilations and the various samples that are taken and the abductions and whatever are true, maybe they're trying to recreate their original masters.
All right, well, let's hold it there, and let's ask Richard about contemporary ufology, crop circles, animal mutilations, the kinds of things she just talked about, the larger aliens, and then the manufactured graves.
Look, given that we're looking at ruins, and I'm 99% convinced now that they're really there, and given that we may be looking at human ruins in an extraordinarily ancient and wondrous epoch, you then have to ask yourself, if only some of us came here, where do the rest of us go?
And my answer is that they're also here.
They've come back and they're meddling.
And part of the reason, Art, that maybe there has been an inhibition in letting the rest of us know our true history is that some of us out there have been meddling with the timeline, meddling with the historical curve to keep us in the dark.
Now, given that we're a pretty nasty species, I mean, look at what we do better than anything, and you just said it.
We kill each other.
Suppose the guys out there that didn't go through the fall don't think that we're ready for prime time, that we're people that should be allowed to associate with civilized races and human beings.
And they are determined to keep us down on the farm.
How better to keep us down on the farm than to meddle in our politics, to meddle with our spacecraft by remote control through human agents to simply keep us in this somnambulance so we don't really understand what it is we once had and what we could have again.
Well, there are many who believe that when we reached the moon, we were told that we should really go back home and we were met and that we were instructed that if we were to come off the farm, we'd be slaughtered.
I mean, that's putting it very gruffly, but there are people who believe we have been so instructed.
But if we're dealing with human beings, if we're dealing with, I mean, what did we do, the Soviet Union and the United States, but to meddle in every other nation and to basically control them or try to control them as our puppets in the bigger war?
Suppose that kind of game has been going on with this planet because of things out there that we have no conception of as yet.
There's really nobody else saying the things that Richard C. Hoagland is saying with the passion that he says them, and there needs to be somebody saying them.
There's a very great, large body of evidence indicating that there's a big surprise coming on Mars, and even the moon, should we return there.
Well, I think it would be very educational for people to see how the process works and how many predictions, scientific.
I'm not talking political now, because political predictions are worth the powder and a shot to blow them away, because as I said, the politics can change on a dime.
But the science stands.
The science is there, and it would be interesting and very important for people to gauge how we do the science part of this to see how many times we've made predictions and have been right.
And we're going to make, you know, We've got some stunning images up on the site of Saturn that we're not going to get to tonight.
I have a major set of predictions about the Saturn mission, Cassini, which is closing in even as we speak, which is very relevant to the other question that was asked.
Well, the theory is that you had Mars, which had an enormous catastrophe.
Something, you know, unimaginable happened to that planet.
The mainstream guys have come to the conclusion that something catastrophic happened.
They don't know what.
Our model, which we presented, it's on the website, the Mars title paper, is that Mars used to orbit a bigger planet out in the asteroid belt, and that planet blew up.
You know, there was two options.
It could have blown up or it could have been hit by something.
And they really don't know what our sun's done in the past.
They certainly speculated that it could erupt enormously.
And at a time, for example, when a magnetic field was at a low or a switch point, and whatever atmosphere had been on Mars was suddenly vulnerable when it otherwise would not have been, you know, protected originally the way our own planet's atmosphere is protected, that it got whacked by the sun at the wrong moment, and that is certainly scientifically plausible.
It happened all in one hemisphere in a very brief period of time in this model that we're laying out.
And which has the prediction.
Remember, the model is only as good as your predictions.
And we have some more predictions for the tidal model based on what the rovers, the NASA rovers, are going to find when they get down on the surface and start analyzing the dirt.
If it was that fast, Richard, and there was a mass extinction, including of the atmosphere, then who had time to build spaceships and go to Mother Earth?
So we need some night to really grapple with all the cool things.
I was going to get into a bit of it tonight as the practical benefit of going to Mars.
Because what's on Mars, if I'm right, are hyperdimensional machines, a technology light years better than ours that doesn't use fossil fuels that would make Stephen Greer drool, okay, that he could take off the shelf and plug in, and it will run.
And I have some laboratory data, and I actually was going to relate it to what we're seeing at Saturn in terms of observation that Cassini is going to make, but we can hold that for another show.
The point is that there is a stunning amount that we can learn about the solar system if we simply look and not come at it with preconceived notions.
And someday, I think a show where we go through all the weird areas I've been right will be appropriate.
And they saw what was going to happen to the parent planet because they had a physics light years beyond ours and they saw what was going on in the core.
And planets occasionally explode by natural means, and or there may have been a war.
The wild card is we may have done it to ourselves on a Planetary scale as opposed to just nuking each other.
So you would know, so a small band of refugees, to go back to the first question, then escaped to the only other place within the solar system they could live without technology, which was here.
But there were already guys here, another part of the human race.
That's where the Nephilim, the sons of God, the big guys, meet the little guys that lived here on Earth, that were part of the same human family.
For example, Richard, people who believe in reincarnation lately have been telling me they think that there's a great chance that you will be reincarnated as another intelligent being elsewhere in the universe.
Well, I would imagine that if we were to make this discovery on Mars, there would be a very great deal of religious speculation right along that line, wouldn't you think, early on?
Well, I think what it revealed is that there are things going on beneath the surface that we're not privy to.
And when you strike gold like that, I mean, I haven't got any real new news except that I know there is a contingent which is following this story and from time to time do various things to try to, shall we say, advance the curve.
Well, this is one of the things that Paul Nelson and I had a brief discussion on at Wisconsin, because, as you know, he's a creationist, and he believes, as does Hugh Ross, that life was placed here in all its various forms, Like, you know, Fiat Lux, like overnight by order of a divine creator.
One of the things that we found over the years in looking at this physics is that there are potential explanations that are alternatives to evolution for the biology that we see in the fossil record here on planet Earth.
When it comes to Homo sapiens, it's very clear now that we have not been left alone, that there has been something happening.
I mean, this is the story of 2001, that something from outside has influenced our evolution, as it were.
And the only thing now left is to figure out exactly what did happen and who was involved.
Major parts of this story, I think, are on Mars and on the moon and in the rest of the solar system.
And if we can ever get some honest scientists and government people in charge of the space program to tell us what they're really finding, we'll know a lot more of the story.
But if we're continually kept in the dark politically, then scientifically we can make no progress, and that's why we've got to solve the politics first.
And you can still go to Enterprise and copy it down at your leisure.
And as I said, during the month of January, I will finish editing with Laurie Hokkola, who is my editor, who's a stunningly talented guy, this 13 hours.
Remember now, beginning tomorrow night, we're going to take predictions.
Very, very serious predictions.
And they're going to be serious because you are going to take a few moments out of your life, get quiet, and try and imagine a large event that you see coming in 2004.
That's what we're going to be up to.
Open lines tomorrow night, then Wednesday night as well.
From the high desert for this night, I'm Art Bell.