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Dec. 6, 2003 - Art Bell
02:50:52
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - UFOs and Alternative Energy - Bob Lazar
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Music from the high desert and the great American Southwest.
Good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world's time zones, because we cover all of this.
This strange, unusual program, this eclectic adventure in the night called Coast to Coast AM.
It's an honor to be here.
It's an honor to certainly be interviewing the man I'm about to interview, Amarillo Slim.
You may not have known that he was on the way tonight, but Indeed he is.
I'll tell you all about him in a moment.
And then in the second hour, of course, Bob Lazar.
And so this should be quite a night all in all, folks.
I want to note for you very quickly, I've had about 10,000 emails.
Richard C. Hoagland's website is just temporarily down, as is he with the flu.
Richard C. Hoagland has the flu.
Look out, out there.
I'm hearing stories that this year's shot may not do the job.
I don't know.
Being in isolation may be a good thing.
Anyway, his website will be up shortly.
Understand we may take a moonshot with the shuttle.
That's something we'll talk with Richard about.
I spoke with him a couple of hours ago.
Coming up in a moment... Oh, what an honor!
The book is Amarillo Swim in a World Full of Fat People.
The memoirs...
Of the greatest gambler who ever lived.
That's who you're about to hear from.
Thomas Austin.
Amarillo Slim Preston, 74 years of age, is a fast-talking, colorful Texas gambler and poker ambassador who won the World Series of Poker in 1972, never without his snakeskin-wrapped Stetson and custom-designed cowboy boots.
He lives in Amarillo, Texas.
He's 6'4 and weighs 170.
He is skinny.
He's so skinny.
He looks like an advanced man for a famine.
Despite his string bean build, Amarillo Slim is larger than life and considered around the world to be the greatest gambler of all time.
The greatest gambler of all time.
What kind of things has he done to give you a little taste?
He played Minnesota Fats in one pocket with a broom.
In one pocket.
Played in one pocket with a broom.
He took 21 and a half points on the Jets and won a six-figure bet on Broadway, Joe and Super Bowl... That couldn't be three.
Oh, maybe it was.
He made a cat pick up a Coke bottle.
This is what I gotta hear about.
Made a cat pick up a Coke bottle.
He bet on which sugar cube a fly might land on in an Arkansas jail.
Whatever he was there for.
He won the World Series of Poker, no small matter, at Binion's Horseshoe in 72.
He beat Evel Knievel in golf with a carpenter's hammer, betting 2 out of 30 cab drivers in Dallas would have the same birthday.
Beat Bobby Riggs playing ping pong with a skillet.
Beat Willie Nelson out of $300,000 playing dominoes in Vegas.
Played Bob Stupak, my neighbor over the hill there, pitching coins for $65,000 at the Rio in Las Vegas.
Played Larry Flint, heads up poker, at the Phipps Club in Los Angeles.
Betting a prominent politician.
Betting a prominent politician, yeah, that George W. Bush would win the 2000 presidential election and a whole lot more.
In fact, they've got 21 listed here of the crazy bets and crazy things the man you're about to hear from has done.
in a moment. Amarillo Slim.
Now to where else?
Amarillo, Texas.
And here's Amarillo Slim.
Amarillo, welcome to the program.
Good to be here, bud.
What's going on?
You at the moment, my friend.
I spent 18 months in your fair city back in the days when you used to have an Air Force Base there, Emerald Air Force Base.
Well, yeah, but when Lyndon Johnson failed to kill at Potter County, our Air Force Base got phased out.
I recall.
I think last time I was there, the only thing left were a few red and white towers out there where the Air Force Base used to be.
That's about it.
That's about it.
But Emerald was a good town.
Hell, I've lived here nearly all my life.
I met a pair of really good-looking twins in Amarillo, so I remember that place for a long time.
You should, because our population has been the same in the last 30 years.
It never varies.
Every time some woman gets pregnant, some man leaves town.
So Amarillo has just been the same forever.
Why are you a gambler?
Well, I don't know.
I don't know.
It seemed like it would come pretty easy for me.
Well, that soft is better for me.
I enjoy it.
Yeah, but I mean, there must be something in your psychological makeup.
You must saw about it from time to time.
Why do I do this?
Why am I a gambler?
Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's a bad thing.
My gosh, look what Southern Cal did.
That last field goal, you'd like to go spend what it cost me.
I had taken 22 points on that game.
So, you haven't let up at all, have you?
No, that's for women and children.
Nobody gives up.
I would love to hear.
Your book is out.
How is your book being read?
By the way, folks, if you go to my website and click on all its webcams, I'm holding a copy of Emeril Assun's book.
Picture of him right up front.
And so there's a lot of really cool stories in this book.
Let's talk about a few of them.
I mean, you played Minnesota Fats in one pocket with a broom?
Well, yeah.
In my youth, I was a professional billiard player.
Uncle Sam sent me all over the world giving pocket billiard exhibitions when I was only 17.
And when I came back from Europe, I ran into Fats at Perth Amboy, New Jersey.
And we played, and he beat me out of a good-sized figure, but a little later on, he found out he should have won about five times that.
So, Fats got him a couple of sponsors together, and they come to Amarillo to play me some, I lost a proposition game with him, a game that I had practiced for a long, long time, and there was a handicap involved, but that was a good player, but what he smelled cooking wasn't on the fire, you know what I'm saying?
A broom.
Well, yeah, just like you sweep the floor with, and bless his heart.
He left here scratching a broke tail.
I felt it was good for him.
I liked Fats.
I was one of the few people that liked Fats.
But we knew him as New York Fats.
He only became Minnesota Fats after the movie came out.
Oh, the movie did that to him?
Yeah.
Yeah, we knew Fats.
I played Fats in New York.
I played him in Atlanta.
I played him in Hot Springs, Arkansas.
We'd played several times.
You say you were one of the only people who liked him, huh?
Well, yeah, because he was a...
Man, he was stronger than Nellie's breath.
That son of a gun was a lilac patch.
Hell, he was okay with me.
Very few people knew his name.
His name was Rudolph Waldron.
And he was a showman, and a good one.
In fact, he told me one time I played him in an exhibition in Reno, and scowled out on him.
I couldn't beat him at that time.
And he says to me, say, you skinny cowboy, if you want some notoriety, go set yourself on fire.
So I thought that was alright.
That suited me just fine.
He was as good as his reputation says.
Yes.
I'm a cat person.
I own four cats.
So when I saw that you made a cat, you bet somebody that a cat could pick up a Coke bottle.
Now, cats can't pick up Coke bottles.
Oh yeah, I've done it several times in my life.
I make the cat pick up the coke bottle, made it take up the elevator to the parking lot and put the bottle on top of his car.
What?
I made the cat... Yeah, I heard you.
I just said... I'm saying, like, how could you do that?
Well, all trappers don't wear a pair of caps.
And earlier that minute, this man had been playing some high golf, and one evening, We always went to the office bar that way in Lowndes there in New York, and when we did that, if anyone had a phone call, they'd say, where are you?
Well, we was always at the office.
You know what I'm saying?
So now I had given a newspaper kid a $50 bill that morning and told him to catch me a cat.
He said, what kind?
I said, just a grown cat.
I don't care if it's, I don't care what it is, if it's just a grown cat, not a baby kitten.
So he caught me a cat, and I had stationed this gentleman on the outside of the booth where he'd be sure and see him.
Had he been unable to see him, I would have pointed him out to him, but he saw this kid threw this cat in the lounge where we were.
It was the office.
And he said, my God, what's a her cat like that doing in a nice place like this?
So I leaned completely over him and saw the cat, and I said, well, that's a real smart cat, and just sat back down.
And he grabbed me by the shoulder and he said, what do you mean a smart cat?
I said, you can tell by the width of the distance between his ears that he's real intelligent.
Well, I'm a non-drinking stiff, so I was drinking a Coca-Cola, which wasn't out of line.
And I said, well, I can make that cat pick up this Coke bottle and take it up there on that parking lot and put it on top of your car.
Well, man, you could hear a mouse wet on cotton.
It got just as quiet in that building.
Naturally, they sent and got a yellow legal pad, and they wrote out speculations as to what you could and couldn't do, you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, the way the bet would come down.
Sir?
I'm taking it, you mean the outline of the bet, exactly how it would come down.
Yeah, because I couldn't tie it to him or something, so none of them covered what I did, so I was real sure that the cat would.
How much money was on the table over this?
Oh man, we bet enough hundred dollar bills to burn up thirty wet mules.
Everybody in the joint bet me.
You take an empty Coca-Cola bottle and snap the cap back on it and just hit it with your
hand.
There's a very, very slight minute indentation where you open it, it raises the edge on that
cap.
You grab a cap by his tail, and I had some welder's gloves stashed in that place.
You grab him by one hand by the tail and he'll turn over and scratch you.
You put both of your hands on his tail, right at the face of his tail, you can keep him
off of it.
Well, he'll never enter it to any restaurant or lounge or bar or business or anything.
There's generally a tile surface, especially right in front of the cash register.
So I lay this Coke bottle down and I drag this cap.
When you drag him, he grasps everything.
He lets his claws out and he's trying to get a hold of anything.
That's right.
They'll grab on to anything.
That's right.
So I drag him over the bottle.
It doesn't take long and his claws will catch on that indentation.
Now you knew this because you'd done this a whole bunch of times.
Obviously you weren't just... Oh, I wasn't planning by the seat of my buttocks.
I knew that cat was going to pick up that bottle.
So when I pick him up by his tail, as long as I hold on to his tail, he'll hold on to that bottle.
We went out, and we opened the elevator, and everybody got in that could, and the rest of them climbed the stairs, took it to the top of the parking lot up there, and when I turned loose of the coke bottle, he turned loose of the... I mean, when I turned loose of his tail, he turned loose of the bottle, and there it was!
So, I felt it was good for him, because they should have known he was a smart cat, but they looked at the width between his eyes.
Well, they should have been looking at your eyes, probably.
Well, that doesn't do him any good because I'd only let him see what I wanted him to see.
So, there's a lot more than betting and gambling, especially this kind of gambling, than just betting.
I mean, there's really, there's one element of showmanship, there's one element of... Well, there's a little bit of deceit, a little bit of... I was going to say grifting.
Well, yeah, because see, some of the things The only one I ever did that was just an out-and-out, I'd call damn near a swindle, was about that eating a quail a day for 30 days.
Yeah, what was that all about?
Well, all my life I've heard that no one could eat a quail a day for 30 days.
Why not?
Well, that meat's too strong.
You get to where you can't even walk in the room where it's being prepared.
A quail a day for 30 days?
Yeah.
I know an attorney in Austin that bet a big figure That he could, and he didn't do it.
I know about 20 people that tried it, and no one ever did.
And couldn't do it.
So a friend of ours bought the Holiday Inn Casino in Reno, and a bunch of the bosses, and then some of us peons, too.
We went to Reno to welcome him to Nevada, and he said, Fem, get us something unusual for dinner.
So I sent back home and got some turkey fries.
None of these guys have ever eaten turkey fries.
One night then I got some cash prize and I sent to Louisiana and got some probably, you know, a bunch of old spoiled millionaires sitting around there.
And finally he said, don't you have some quail?
And I said, yeah.
So I got us a mess of quail.
So he volunteered it.
It all come up on the natural.
And when it comes up naturally, it's always a certainty to become a reality.
You know what I'm saying?
Well, I think I do.
Well, Tom said, oh, these are real people I'm talking about.
He said, Lem, do you think you could eat a quail a day for 30 days?
I said, hell, I know I can't, because I knew that.
He said, well, you want to win a couple hundred thousand, I bet you can't eat a quail a day.
A couple hundred thousand.
$200,000 on that.
Well, yeah, see, those kind of people aren't on any budget.
So that would be, that's not an out of line wager.
No, I know it isn't.
I know.
I've been watching some of these World Series of Poker tournaments and I want to talk to you about that.
It's insane.
Well, we get a stack of $100 bills out there that a show dog couldn't jump over.
You know?
When I left the World Series last year and went to the host's opening of a new casino in Colorado, I put $8,320,000 in $100 bills on the end of that poker table.
Oh my God.
another dollar billed on the end of that poker table. Oh my god. We had eight hundred and thirty two players post ten
thousand apiece to play in the tournament. That's eight million three hundred and twenty-five.
Man, that's got some whiskers on it.
Oh yeah, it sure does.
You know, my... Anyway, let me finish up.
Go ahead and finish up.
Yeah, yeah.
So anyway, that night we went up, we had adjoining suites, and about 2 o'clock in the morning, Benny come in.
He said, Glenn, you awake?
I said, hell no.
Go on back and go to bed.
Let's get some sleep.
He said, I got a chore for you.
That's what I said.
He said, you gotta find a way where a man can eat a quail a day for 30 days.
I said, well, Benny, you can't do it.
I said, I know a lot of people have tried.
He said, I've heard that all my life.
But he said, now, you will find some way for a man to eat a quail a day.
I said, I don't know.
He said, well, I'm designating you a job to find a way to do it.
So about four or five months later, by sheer accident, I was in Roswell, New Mexico, trying out a new cutting horse.
I had him in a round pen there, and I told him, the cowboy brought the horse over there.
Open that gate there for me, let me show him a little bit of country.
He said, well, Flemm just go down, when you get out the gate, turn right there in that pasture, and said, you're going into about a three-section pasture.
I said, I'll see you later.
So I loped down to the end of that lane and started to step off the horse to get open the gate, and this guy says, oh, Mr. Flemm, let me get that gate for you.
So this guy opens the gate where I can go out in that big pasture, and I said, how in the hell did you beat me down here?
uh... he said what are you talking about that will you just let me know that
rampant and they're going to court of a mouth or should that matt when brother identical twin
after the lord of the world and i think it's not the best not to have a good
The light really come on.
So apparently you can eat a quail every other day.
Oh, I'd let one of them eat it for about three days and then go to a dark movie or something and eat them for three or four days.
Now see, that's pretty close to a swindle.
Why did I just tell you that?
You did.
I told you, but see.
That's the case of using your head instead of your ear, anyway.
Well, that's true.
I thought it was so much fun, because when this guy, after about the twelfth day, and this guy looks like he's doing all right with it, but these folks at Wagered, they couldn't swallow boiled okra.
It looked like the wheel had already run off, and I enjoyed that one, because it was a little Well, I guess you could say it was unethical.
I don't know.
I just, uh... Well, you gamble... I mean, you gambled on a fly landing, right?
While you were in jail or something?
Well, I wasn't in jail.
I've never been incarcerated.
Never?
No.
Well, now, see, that right there is something interesting.
You've never officially been in jail.
That's right.
I got a call from a little old town over in Arkansas from the sheriff and he said he had
a big drug lord in his jail and he had an awful lot of money on deposit and he wanted
me to come over there and see if I could find some way to beat him.
So we agreed to cut it like a watermelon.
You know how you cut a watermelon don't you?
I do, right down the middle.
So I went over there and they determined that if I smoked in the hall there at the courthouse
and couldn't pay my fine that they would put me in jail for a couple of hours.
So I lit me a cigarette and I was unable to pay my fine so it looked like it was on the
square.
And they put me in there with this fella, and we were sitting on the edge of a little old, I guess you'd call it a bump, because there's one below and one above.
There was a little bench in front of us, and this guy knew who I was.
He heard some stories about me, and he said, My God, I bet you could get us some coffee.
I said, Well, probably, what do you want?
Man, I'm a coffee hound.
I know you are.
Let's have some coffee.
I said, OK.
We hollered for what they call the jailer.
That's the guy with the keys, I guess.
He come back there, and I told him we wanted some coffee.
And this guy said, Flemming, I use cream and sugar both.
So I said, well, can you get us some cream and sugar?
And the guy said, yeah.
So he brought us some, but the sugar he brought us was lump sugar, cubes.
You've probably seen them.
Yeah, of course.
They look just like a paradise.
Well, that's what they look like.
Paradise, yeah.
They do.
So it wasn't real sanitary in there anyway.
And there was some flies buzzing around.
So I thought, well, lookie here.
I've already got me a way to break this gap.
So I put five of these sugar cubes on this little bench right in front of us.
About, you know, two foot in front of us.
Hold that story right there, Amarillo.
We're here at the bottom of the hour.
He was going to bet the guy that he could cause a fly to land on a particular sugar cube.
This is a man who'll bet on anything, obviously.
And pretty much has.
From the high desert, in the middle of the night, doing what you never expect.
Always a surprise.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
Don't touch that dial.
Sweet dreams are made of this.
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world and the seven seas.
Bright lights, they're gonna set my soul, Gonna set my soul on fire.
Got a whole lot of money that's ready to burn.
So get those stakes up high.
There's a thousand pretty women waiting out there.
They're all living the devil may care.
And I'm just a devil with no despair.
So people are begging.
People are begging.
How I wish that there were more than 24 hours in the day.
Do talk with Art Bell.
I want to sleep a minute away.
Oh, a black jack and poker and a ruling wheel.
A fortune won and lost on every deal.
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From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
You're listening to one of the greatest gamblers, if not the greatest gambler in the world.
His name is Amarillo Slim, and he'll be right back.
All right.
Back to Amarillo Slim.
If I got this right, there's a guy in a jail, right?
A whole bunch of money.
I'm going to split that watermelon right down the middle, and so he gets himself tossed in jail on some smoking infraction.
And guess what?
Jerry's betting with this guy, and he says up a bet, something about sugar cubes.
He had sugar cubes there, right?
That's right.
And so, what was the bet?
What he had on the deposit.
But after he got told a lot of times, a lot of people thought he had more on the deposit than he did.
He had $37,000.
$37,000.
But actually, what was the bet?
Thirty-seven thousand and whatever odd change he had.
No, that's the money.
I meant, what were you betting on?
Well, I put five of those sugar cubes out there on this bench.
Five?
And he said, uh, what do you mean?
And I said, well, you see those fives?
I said, I'll bet I can tell you which one of those sugar cubes the fly lands on.
Yeah?
He said, well, you've got it.
I said, well, not even money.
There's five of them.
And even money would be four to one, but I'll take, uh, 72, I knew he had fudge, you know, he wanted the best of it, which is 3 1⁄2 to 1, so he didn't disappoint me.
He said, no, no, no, I'm not gonna lay 3 1⁄2 to 1, I'll lay you 3 to 1.
I said, well, have you got anything?
Of course, I already knew you had.
So he said, yeah, I'll lay it for what I've got on deposit.
I said, well, you haven't got glass pockets, let me see a receipt where I can tell what you've got on deposit.
Of course, I already knew.
So I designated the cube it would land on, and we wagered.
But you see, sugar, just in its normal form, one of those sugar cubes, is just like a teddy bear.
I'm looking at one on the TV or a picture or something.
It's nothing to apply.
But if you'll moisten your finger and wet that sugar cube, it'll dissolve a little bit of it.
It gives off an aroma.
When it gives off an aroma, Mr. Fly, he doesn't need to see those other four.
They're just like that bench.
He just die-bombs that cube.
My God.
You could have played gin on me on this, Mr. Manchurian Taylor.
It'd stick a nice finger out when you threw up out there.
I knew which one that fly was going to land on.
Well, it always will.
That's something to remember.
So you just put a little water there, a little bit of spit on the end of that thing and... That's exactly... Well, you know it dissolves it.
Oh, my.
Well, when it evaporates, naturally it gives off a sweet aroma.
Admiral, what's your wife's opinion on your lifestyle, the way you live?
Well, I guess she thinks I'm a pretty clever little fella because in my youth I used to make some trips and they weren't all positive.
But it was very seldom I ever asked him if it was.
How did you do?
Even if I had a bad trip, I'd say, oh, I beat these folks.
So there wasn't any need to me being a burden or a hardship on my family over my gaming.
Listen, I've been watching these poker tournaments, and man, Tamarilla, to play.
I understand these are good poker players, but my God, people laying down sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars on you know like
no hand it's just uh... it you you would have to have
i don't know great big giant brass ones to play in a tournament like that
those people are crazy well
let me tell you uh... years ago i was a guinea pig for a thing that they
they wanted to do and originally i turned it down and a friend of mine got me to go ahead and do it
They put some monitors on me like they stamped on those astronauts.
Yeah.
And they wanted to show why under duress, I didn't show any emotion.
Right.
Is the way it was kind of worded to me.
And, uh, hell, I could look you right in the eye and, you know, it's just like that guy that stands there and he swears to you it's raining outside, but all the time he's wetting on your leg.
So, uh, I don't know, but it takes a different breed of cat.
See, everybody can move their chips up and down.
You watch these tournament games, which you're doing, and so is everybody else in the country.
All these guys shuffle their chips straight up and down.
Well, everybody can do that, but it takes a different breed of cat that can move them chips out there in the center without a hand.
Now, anyone can if they've got the nuts, or a cinch hand, or a good hand.
I respect a guy that can bet all of that without having anything.
I tell you, it's a pretty tough go.
Everybody asks me if they want to become a professional poker player or something.
My suggestion has always been to get them a driver's license and go driving a dump truck.
I guess not.
Listen, my wife dealt in Las Vegas and she's got a question for you.
because this is no laugh for the weak at heart, you know.
I guess not.
Listen, my wife is, she was, she dealt in Las Vegas, and she's got a question for you.
She wants to know why a woman has never won the World Series of Poker.
Oh, I know what they're laden up to.
Well, no you don't, because even I don't.
Why hasn't a woman ever won?
And Will, do you think one ever will?
Oh, see, y'all are going back several years ago when that lady got hold of about, oh she got hold of seven or eight hundred thousand, about eight hundred thousand in less than two hours in one of our big tournaments.
So I was doing an interview with UPI in there in the sombrero room during a break.
And naturally, she stuck her goat-smelling panty right in the middle of it and said, well, it looks like I'm going to be the first woman that wins the World Series of Poker.
Now, I did not say if a woman wins it.
I said Vera.
I said, Miss, if you win it, you can take a dull knife and cut my throat.
Well, by the time guys like you got hold of it, I was quoted as saying, If a woman ever won it, they'd cut my throat.
So every year during the World Series of Poker, some lady will get a hold of a few hundred thousand or else.
No, Amarillo, listen to me now.
I wasn't going down that trail.
I really wanted to know, I mean, why hasn't a woman won?
I mean, just the plain odds.
It's got to be something different.
Well, I just don't think a woman... Here, see, I'm going to catch you up on them again.
I've kind of got an agreement with the ladies.
If they won't do any gambling, I won't have any babies.
And I'll stick to my part of the deal.
But I do say this, that's the only place in the world I can beat a woman and not get thrown in jail.
So, I welcome all the ladies to play.
Yeah, but you still haven't answered the question.
Why do you think one hasn't won?
What is it about a woman playing poker that's different?
I just don't think they've got a heart as big as a pea.
And under duress, I think they'll give it up.
Maybe they won't.
Now, wait a minute.
I know a lot of good lady poker players.
I know a lot of good would-be lady poker players.
In fact, the best lady poker player that ever lived was a girl named Betty Carey.
She hadn't been around in the last few years.
She went to Alaska and played, and she's got herself completely rich now.
I think she's living in Montana.
But she played about ten different guys in Vegas, hit up poker, and beat every one of them.
And I'm talking about top water players.
I'm not talking about somebody that's running around looking for $100,000 to get in a game with.
I'm talking about successful players.
So she called me and said, I'm ready to graduate.
And I said, what do you mean?
She said, you're next.
So I didn't disappoint her a damn bit.
I went out there.
In fact, she and I played right after my first tournament at the Hilton.
And I treated her like a stepchild, but on your hand.
And that's the psychology in poker.
So somebody told her that I knew her hand.
I mean, not by deceit or deception.
She had a tell on her.
That's why I say there's a lot of psychology to poker.
Yeah, now a tell is something that somebody does.
It's a giveaway, right?
Yeah, well, I'll tell you what it is now that everybody knows about it now.
Okay.
When we shut down the place, she played me a $100,000 freeze-out.
You had to play with somebody who won or lost it.
In other words, you couldn't get winter and go to dinner.
You had to stay and play.
You know what I'm saying?
Sure.
So, prior to playing, they're going after the chips.
Well, it takes them a little while to get a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of chips and get a couple of decks and a dealer and everything.
So as I said, I'm a coffee hound anyway.
I said, Betty, I'm going to have a cup of coffee.
Would you like something to drink?
She said, well, thank you.
Slim said, I would.
I'd like some hot tea.
So they brought her some hot tea.
While they're getting all this ready and I had finished my coffee, I looked at her and I said, Betty, how was your tea?
Ooh, the tea was very nice, Slim.
Thank you very much.
I enjoyed it.
Forty minutes after that, a pot came up that the show dog couldn't jump over.
I mean, it's really in technicolor.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah.
So I say to her, Betty, how do you like your hand?
She said, oh Slim, this is a real good hand.
Well, I know that one worldwide.
You understand?
That's not what she said about that T. That was on the square.
You know she didn't know that was a trick for her.
Oh, that's a tell.
Well, I called her.
Yeah.
And I caught her with the weakest hand.
I caught her with two fives.
Now, I'm talking about something that's a couple of years good salary, you know.
And it got awful quiet in that room.
But I knew her hand, so word got out.
Something stupid in her account.
I went and told her what had happened to her.
So the next time she played me, she played me again.
The next time she played me, she played me down to golden eight.
Yeah, I know it was.
And they had told her that she couldn't talk to me, so she showed up with one of them little old discs that played music and headphones over both ears.
And I was at a disadvantage because I tried to get her to talk to me and she was told that if she talked to me she couldn't play anymore.
Wow.
But I liked Betty.
Betty was a good player.
The best woman player I've ever seen.
When you win a bet, is it most times intuition, skill, or luck?
Well, I don't believe in luck.
I think you make your own luck.
Make your own luck, yeah.
No matter whatever your endeavor is.
If you're a farmer, you'll be a lot luckier if you'll spend more time on that tractor than you do down at the golf course.
I've got a question, and maybe you can answer this.
No one has ever been able to for me.
You know what a card counter is, of course, right?
Yes, sir.
Well, okay.
Card counters are banned, I understand, from Las Vegas casinos on a regular basis.
They just don't let them in.
And I have always wondered, Amarillo, what's wrong with card counting?
This is something you're doing totally in your head, right?
Well, let me tell you.
I was a guinea pig for a program called 60 Minutes.
You know, I may not be familiar with it.
It comes on Sunday night.
And I was supposed to have not been able to play, and the Nevada Gaming Commission made a ruling that I could play, and I played at the only place in the world where I could have bet what I did, and they filmed me playing 21 for a lady.
Now this lady was square as an apple box.
She thought the king was the ruler of a foreign country and the queen was his bedmate.
She didn't know a thing in the world about cards.
And that tight ass producer gave her $200, well I'm supposed to take this $200 and make this lady win some money.
And I put it on $29,800 for her in about 3 hours.
And she showed no excitement, no elation whatsoever until we got ready to go to the cage and cash it in.
And she's shaking like a leaf.
So I know there's 16 people in the world that's barred All over the world, 16 people, huh?
21.
They're in the Griffin book.
And people can win.
I understand that.
I just don't understand... I don't think you should be barred.
...on what basis they're barred.
I just never have been able to figure that out.
I mean, this is a talent.
They're just doing something, the math in their head.
Well, anyway, I'll never get that.
Listen, what do you think of... There's a new gambling world here.
I mean, there's online gambling.
There's casino resorts.
We've got Indian reservations now.
Is Las Vegas, and I guess Atlantic City, going to get hurt by all this?
No, it just creates more players.
I'm fairly close to that gaming industry out there in Nevada.
I remember when Atlantic City first opened, everybody thought that it would take off maybe 20, as much as 22 or 25 percent of Nevada's business.
All it did was increase it, because it creates new players.
And now those blanket-ass Indians have opened up a casino.
Everybody that's got a Eubankham, Chad, has got a gambling license, and I don't think the poor old Indians are winding up with them, but there must be... I hosted the opening of 14 different Indian casinos the last two years, so they're everywhere, and I really and truly think they'll break the whole world.
Do you think Las Vegas, of course you know Las Vegas, used to be an adult playground.
Now it's like Disney Vegas.
I mean, it's changed.
I mean, they used to throw around the drinks and the cigarettes and it was just a different kind of place.
It was a better place then, though.
You think so?
Yeah, when the mob ran everything back to Erie, you were safe walking down the street and you wasn't going to get hijacked in your room.
And just ordinary folks that had maybe $20,000 or $30,000, they got their room comped and food and beverage and everything, and now everybody's, there's no camaraderie.
You're not an individual, you're a dollar mark walking around.
I'm involved in, I know some places out there where with a $100,000 card you can't even get a room during Chinese New Year or the Super Bowl or New Year.
No, that's true.
No, it's still successful.
I mean, Las Vegas is...
Successful?
My God, I still think they'll break the whole world.
Hell yeah.
I'm sick of the lawyers.
They milk me like a Rocky Mountain goat.
My titties get a sore, can't button my shirt.
I know about the lawyers.
They take a third of everything, and my theory is eventually... You're cutting out just a little.
Well, I said they take a third of everything, so my theory is eventually they'll have everything.
Well, yeah, I guess the only lawyer I've got out... No, no, I was friends with a lot of them.
Your mayor and I are pretty close.
I know he come out to the Jim Miller Show and introduced me and told a bunch of lies, what a good son of a gun I was, this, that, and the other, but... What do you think is the hardest bet you've ever won?
Oh, the only time I ever risked anything other than money was when I bet all that money I could go down the river of no return.
What the hell?
I didn't know you couldn't do it until after I'd already bet.
Then I went and had Jacques Cousteau make me a wetsuit that would keep me alive in that water for up to 15 minutes.
By then I'd already charged a couple helicopters to hover on the serious part of that river.
You're a cross between a gambler and Evel Knievel.
Say, I liked that boy, too.
I've done some awful dirty things to the little fella.
Yeah, you beat him out of something, didn't you?
Oh, man, I have really been a hardship on him.
But it was good for him.
It kind of builds character, and he is a character anyway.
I'll tell you what I did.
One day I beat him down in Dallas playing golf with a bow and arrow.
I'd already beat him playing with a hammer, so I played him some with a bow and arrow.
So now I thrashed his little panty.
So I was the guest speaker at the pole ball banquet that night, after we got through yacking up there and everything.
He would come around and he'd say, gee, Wes, is there anything we can do?
I said, well, I don't know.
I said, there's a map of the United States on the telephone.
Call somebody.
I've played nearly everything there is.
He said, well, I hate to leave here.
So now I remembered some things I had done before.
And I said, how many people's in here?
He looked around and he whizzed down and told him in one of those big banquet rooms, he
said, �Probably 150 wire.� I said, �You pull them, not me, and I�ll bet out of the
first 30 people you go to, two of them have got the same birthday.� Now brother, the
wheel run off.
Everybody in that building except two people, one was a big shot official with the NFL,
the other was an NFL owner, sent me something.
They might have just bet 600 or a few hundred or a few thousand, but everybody bet.
Well, sure enough, the 18th person that they went to had the same birthday as the second one.
Did you know that beforehand?
Oh, I knew it at work.
I didn't know.
I didn't put anyone in there.
But one of the guys stole my money in the floor.
So I know he's dissatisfied.
You understand?
Yeah, yeah.
So he's insinuating there's something wrong with it.
Yeah.
So I scolded him and had him pick my stuff up and hand it to me.
Well, it's obvious you think there was something wrong with it, so let me tell you what, too.
You think of some place we can go.
I said, we'll go to a theater, a bowling alley, the police station, anywhere there's 30 people, we'll bet again.
Now, one of the last guys that was down there says, hell, why don't we call 30 taxi cabs?
I said, y'all call them.
And we won't ask them nothing.
In Texas, they've got a little identity badge that hangs over that visor.
We're almost out of time here, y'all.
All right, let me tell you.
So anyway, we call 30 cabs, and I paid off the last 17 drivers because the 13th driver had the same birthday as the number 9.
In your gambling life, Amarillo, how much money, just guessing, how much money do you think you bet one way or the other?
Win, lose, and all together, how much money pass through your hands in bets?
Oh, you couldn't.
It's not all win, see.
You have some sizable losses, too.
Oh, I know.
That's what I'm saying.
Win and lose and how much money back and forth you figure you've dealt with.
Well, you couldn't put it in a train.
You couldn't put it in a train.
All right.
Listen, buddy.
We've got to take off.
We're out of time.
But it was sure a pleasure.
Thanks a million.
Talk to you later.
All right.
Take care.
Amaro Slim.
In a world of fat people.
All right.
We're going to take a break here at the top of the hour.
And then along comes Bob Lazar.
From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
What have you done?
Watching that clock Till you return
Hiding that door Be it sight, sound, smell or touch
There's something Inside that we need so much
Oh, my God.
The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sound, or the strength of an oak when it's deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sink And all these things in our memories soar
And they use them to help us to fly Fly, right where she's on
Take this place, on this trip Just for me
Fly, take a pillow Take my heart, I've gotta say
It's for free Wanna take a ride?
To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free 800-825-5033.
line is area code 775-727-1222. To talk with Art Bell from east to the Rockies, call toll-free
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pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
From coast to coast, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
It absolutely is.
It's the weekend, everybody, and you're off, and boy, do I have a guest for you, Bob Lazar.
He is a man.
Who is probably one of the more controversial people in the entire field of ufology.
I mean, really controversial.
Bob Lazar is president of United Nuclear.
They specialize in research and development of cutting-edge technologies, design and manufacture of radiation detection equipment for the nuclear weapons industry, and the retail of scientific equipment and supplies.
He was formerly senior staff He's a physicist for the U.S.
Department of Naval Intelligence at the Nevada Test Site.
You know, that area near me.
And the nuclear physicist at Los Alamos National Labs, where he was involved in advanced nuclear weapon design and development.
And in the middle of all that, he's seen things that very few living Americans have ever seen.
He's actually seen the ships.
He's actually seen the saucers.
Bob Lazar.
Some of you I know probably didn't hear the first program or the last program I guess
I ought to say I did with Bob Lazar.
He is a fascinating guy who got to see the real McCoy at Area S-4, or the infamous Area 51.
I guess it was last, a few weeks ago now, I interviewed our mutual friend John Lear.
Oh, what an interview that was, Bob.
It was really something.
Welcome to the program.
Well, thanks, Art.
Gee, Bob, you know what?
I'm going to start at the end.
Why do you hate talking about UFOs?
Well, there's a few reasons.
First of all, it's gotten pretty old.
It's been over a decade.
And second of all, yeah, I'm glad I was involved in the project for a short time.
But, you know, once you leave that and try and enter normal life, especially if you're peddling your services in research and development, the scientific field, it becomes really tough for people to take you seriously when you're known as the UFO guy.
So, it's just hard to kind of divorce all that stuff.
That's kind of the same problem that John Lear had, you know, when he was working for the airlines.
It finally got to the point where he had to say no more, and for years, of course, he didn't talk at all.
Right.
I know he had a lot of problems with that, and I don't know.
That's something people just don't take into account.
Got fired.
Actually got fired because of it.
From one airline.
Yeah, that's right.
That's what I heard.
How do you now remember that special year with John, or maybe it was more than a year, but the period of time you spent with John and you went through all of that.
How do you now remember that?
Do you remember it fondly?
Do you remember it as something you wish you hadn't done, or what?
Oh, no.
Those are fond memories.
It was fun and exciting back then, before all the problems started and all the hassles from the Feds and whatnot.
Yeah, back in the early days before all this became popular and Area 51 was on the tip of everybody's tongue, you know, we were sneaking around out there when there were minimal security and whatnot, and I had the test flight schedule at that time, so we knew exactly what was going to happen and what was going on.
Well, you know what I'd like to know?
Why did you, I mean, you at that time had a pretty damn good secure job at an extremely secret place.
What made you decide to grab John by the collar and say, hey buddy, I can show you something?
How did you make that choice?
I have to place myself back in that time.
That's kind of a loaded question because there was a lot of stuff going on at that time.
I kind of make a long story short.
At the time, they were just calling me out, usually at night, on specific days to go out there, when I initially started working down at the test site.
Right.
And, you know, this was causing problems with my wife at the time, because I was keeping everything confidential, even from her.
Sure.
And, you know, I hear 11 or 12 o'clock at night, I get this call and I disappear.
And you've got to go.
Yeah, and this happens time and time again.
Where are you going, honey?
I'm sorry I can't talk about that.
Right.
I'm going to work.
I'm sure you are.
As this goes on for quite a while, suspicions begin to build up.
I kind of kept my friends at arm's length at that time because I just didn't want any problems.
I wanted all this newfound security to go smoothly.
Sure.
I was pretty much playing with the game, so it started causing suspicion in my friends and immediate family and that sort of thing, so I decided to take the risk one night and just bring everybody out close enough to where they could see a test flight when I knew a test flight was going on.
Yeah, but you had to know what you were risking, right?
Oh, I did, and you know I can't I can't really say what the actual motivation was back then.
Specifically, what made me snap on that day.
Were you angry at them?
No, not at that point.
Were you showing off?
There's nothing wrong with that, by the way.
That's what it was.
That's what it was.
I can understand.
No, it really wasn't that.
That would actually be an easy answer.
It really wasn't that.
If I recall, we didn't start butting heads until after that.
Right.
But that was about it.
I think it was to alleviate suspicion and show several of my friends what was going on.
What was really going on.
Yeah.
How much during those sojourns, how much did you actually get to see along with John?
While we were out of the area or while I was actually working there in the area?
Well, yeah, they're two separate things.
No, I meant when you took John and others up there.
Is what you saw, was it convincing for those who came along with you?
There was no question in their mind about what they were seeing.
Oh, no, there was no question.
I mean, John hauled out his, even though we got much closer in than you can today, Well, I have no idea what it's like today, but at least when I was last in Las Vegas a few years ago, you really couldn't get very far out on the road.
But we drove in close to 10 miles, and you can't do that anymore.
But John hauled out his Celestron 10-inch telescope, and from there it was quite a view.
And you were seeing saucers?
A saucer, yeah.
A saucer.
Hovering?
Moving?
Yeah.
Just lifted off the ground and hovered around.
Do you have any idea, now of course you actually, it's another story, but I mean you of course got in to see the real McCoy.
You saw how many saucers ultimately at S4?
Oh, there were nine total.
Nine total.
But, you know, these were seen at a distance.
The only one I actually had direct contact with was the one that was being test flown.
Uh-huh.
Do you have any idea how they sufficiently back-engineered whatever in the hell they found inside that saucer to be able to test-fly it?
Do you have any idea what went on to learn about... I mean, there must have been... I mean, what was it like inside?
Inside this thing?
What was it like?
If you were standing there looking at it inside, what would you be seeing?
Well, I guess the most shocking thing about it is it was Everything was one color.
There was no aesthetics at all.
Everything was a light gray.
And it was as if, and I've said this before, it was as if the entire device was made out of, carved out of wax, heated for a bit and cooled off.
There were no sharp edges, no right angles.
Everything was rounded and smooth.
Both inside and out, there are no seams or anything like that.
Like it had been done from a mold or something?
Right, like a giant injection mold of some sort.
That was probably the most obvious thing you'd notice when you walk in there.
It just didn't look conventional at all.
Any idea, again, from that, could you see...
So how did they navigate this thing?
Were there buttons?
Were there joysticks?
What sort of... I have no idea.
No idea.
And so you would have no idea then how they back-engineered, it would have to be a pretty dangerous thing to take a craft that you just had and try to figure out how to fly the damn thing.
I imagine so, and from the stories I've heard that it was quite a dangerous thing, but unfortunately a lot of this went on way before I ever got there.
Obviously, they had at least found out to some extent how some of the systems and subsystems operated.
Do you know how they got their hands on these in the first place?
I mean, how did they get them?
I don't know.
I don't know.
Unfortunately, a lot of the information is compartmentalized.
So nobody has no one person has the whole story about everything.
And that's typically done in any government project.
So nobody can walk away with, you know, the whole project or knowledge of everything.
But Yeah, I wish I had the complete picture of what was going on, even just smaller pieces to the picture I did have.
I would be very interested in how the navigational system operated.
That still kind of puzzles me, as do flight controls and things of that sort.
And propulsion?
This element, what is it, 116?
Is it 116?
115.
115.
Yeah, 115.
Do you have any concept of how the propulsion system did what it did?
I know how a jet plane moves from A to B and so forth and so on.
I mean, how was this Element 115 used to move the craft?
What kind of propulsion system is it?
It's a gravity propulsion system, something that's completely alien to us, if you don't mind me saying that.
That's a good word.
Instead of an action reaction system, I guess the analogy I always use is if you go put a bowling ball in the middle of your bed, and three feet away from it, push your fist into the bed and push down really hard, the bowling ball rolls towards it.
That's correct.
And what happens in these craft, or on this particular one anyway, there were three gravity amplifiers in them.
And what these are are long tubes that are in the belly of the craft.
And they're on kind of a universal pivot-type joint, to make it simple.
It's actually something more complicated than that, but what they can do is swing two of the emitters up at one time, focus on a point in front of the craft, and cause a local distortion, and essentially the craft moves forward towards it, just like the bowling ball would.
So it's falling into a path it's making for itself.
Right.
It's kind of constantly rolling downhill, so to speak.
Yeah.
Which is the opposite of how our vehicles travel.
We always accelerate air, throw exhaust out the back, do something to propel something forward.
And in the air anyway.
And this essentially operates the opposite.
Now, is it dependent on a local field of gravity.
In other words, obviously these ships are designed to fly through interstellar space, and I wonder if they're using gravity in that manner, then how does local gravity, I wonder, affect them?
In other words, the Earth has gravity, and when they're within our field, is it any different than when they're in interstellar space, in terms of the way it operates?
Yeah, completely.
There's two different modes of travel.
There's Delta and Omicron.
Oh?
And the Omicron configuration is when the craft uses one of the emitters to essentially hover on and causes that local distortion with the other two in front of it.
Right.
Causing it to move forward.
This is something I've never heard before.
Okay.
The Delta configuration, in fact, there, let me take a step back for a second.
That's how the craft is flown in an area of gravity.
Now, when you want to leave a local area of gravity, say fly into space, what is done is you transition from Omicron to Delta.
And in a lot of the UFO pictures you see occasionally, you'll see these UFOs at these ridiculous angles at 45 degree angles hanging in the middle of the air.
Sure.
And that the reason for that is That's the transition between the two different flight modes.
As the craft lifts off the ground, it has to fly in a gravity-free environment in space with the belly forward.
It doesn't fly like a flying saucer does in a science fiction movie.
The emitters focus on one point, all three of them out in space, and that's how the thing travels.
So you're kind of going from a conventional mode of flight Lifting up in the air, raising the belly, and then aiming that towards your target, and that's how you progress.
Bob, knowing what you know about at least the propulsion system, what can you imagine that might go wrong and cause a craft to crash as it allegedly did, for example, at Roswell?
You know, I've wondered about that for a while, and I can't, I really can't see How one of these things could crash.
But apparently it did.
But I just I can't see where a failure is going to typically occur.
I don't care if there's a lightning storm or what locally is going on unless there was something that occurred within the craft.
I don't think there's any external force that's going to act on it.
Certainly any natural force and cause any problems because If you're generating your own gravitational field, you're essentially immune to everything that's going on around you.
If that field should fail for some reason?
Well, yes, that's why I say if something, if some defect occurred inside, or if something was done unintentionally, as far as piloting the craft, that I could see happening.
But I don't buy the story, somebody comes cruising in, from 30 light years away runs into a thunderstorm and crashes into the ground.
Yeah, you bet.
Are you convinced that Roswell was in fact a crash of an alien craft?
No.
Oh, really?
Now there's a surprise.
Well, you used the word convinced.
There's a lot of information that leads me to believe that, but, you know, I'm one of the most skeptical people when it comes to flying saucer stories.
And I know that almost sounds hypocritical, but that's That's just the way it is.
Becoming involved with, you know, one aspect of it kind of cemented that in my mind.
But, you know, boy, there's lots of wacko stories out there, and I'm sure you've heard your share of them more than anybody.
Perhaps I have.
But, you know, if this propulsion system I mean, it could mean so much for the world.
If we knew how to manipulate gravity in that way, that obviously would be a power source that could be harnessed and utilized in a world where we're running out of coal and oil and all the conventional stuff we've used.
We really badly need another energy source.
I mean, when you saw these saucers, it was how many years ago now?
Well, it was in 88, 89.
88, 89.
And now, 2003, we're starving for energy.
We're probably going to have wars.
Well, we are having wars because of it.
And there'll be more wars because of it.
So why do you suppose, Bob, that all of this has been kept from the world?
I don't know.
There's also, you know, there's also a tremendous weapon potential here.
That too!
You know, a tremendous weapon potential, maybe more so than energy, because as far as duplicating the power system, well, you need access to materials, elements, things of that sort that we simply don't have and cannot fabricate.
Well, you know they'd be making weapons!
Well, yeah, of course.
Of course.
You know, if you can control... I think I said this on my last interview with you, you know, we have We have devices that can produce magnetic fields.
We have devices that can produce artificial light.
But, you know, the big gap is we don't have a machine that can make gravity.
You know, there's nothing that does that.
That's a big gap in physics.
Or we haven't made it public.
And the question is, why is this technology still buried?
I tell you what, we're at the bottom of the hour.
Hold on, Bob.
We'll come back and we'll jump right back into the same place.
It's what Dr. Greer, who by the way will be here tomorrow night, a lot of other people want to know about why is all of this being kept secret.
From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast Day Out.
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Electricity's so fine.
Look and dry your eyes Breathe
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option 5, and dialing toll free.
The very controversial Bob Lazar is a physicist, and he's actually been where few living human beings have ever been.
on the internet. This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
It is and my guest of course is Bob Lazar, the very controversial Bob Lazar. He's a physicist
and he's actually been where few living human beings have ever been and that's standing
right in front of the real McCoy. UFOs, flying saucers, flying disks, some described, one
described I recall as the sports model.
you But the real thing.
In fact, I believe what Bob saw resulted in the tester model.
Do you remember the tester model of the saucer?
Well, that came from, at least in part, if not in totality, Bob's description.
I think that's right.
We'll ask about that in a moment.
Bob Lazar.
Alright, the ability to create or manipulate gravity, some incredible thing to be sure.
And Bob, we're talking about the, you know, the energy needs of the world.
And then you brought up weapons and you betcha.
I mean, do you believe, for example, that they have, in fact, developed weapons using this technology and that we have them now in our arsenal?
My own personal belief, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Because I saw evidence of that even when I worked there.
Part of the part of the briefing contained a couple hints about using gravity as a lens or one of the gravity emitters as a lens to focus energy weapons.
So which to take a step back if your particle beams and other energy-type weapons of that sort disperse quickly in an atmosphere and it's kinda hard to keep a focused intense beam on your target, but if you can manipulate gravity, you know, you can really, really change the dynamics of that.
What would such a weapon do?
Well, they're using a technology there essentially to focus something that's conventional, but if you could maintain The energy density maintain, you know, essentially a tight focus spot, right, of any high intensity energy, you could burn, you know, penetrate, destroy different targets, but also, it's also a great defensive thing, because once you start talking about manipulating gravity, and you can create a gravitational field in any plane you wish,
You know, things that become possible are what we consider science fiction.
Now, the popular shields in Star Trek become possible now.
Well, how about the not-quite-so-as-fictional suggestions made by Ronald Reagan about Star Wars?
You know, you've got to wonder if some of what that man said at that time came from some knowledge he might have had about what was possible.
It could certainly have had.
I've heard several people talk about Reagan in that way.
And I know he made several of those speeches making reference to aliens invading the Earth.
That's right.
Yeah, that's very possible.
Certainly that would have been one of the early conclusions any military mind would have drawn and that could have easily made it to the top to the President.
Ronald Reagan was somebody who said what was on his mind Uh, to the consternation of many around him, you know, he'd just say what was on his mind.
And, uh, to hell with the consequences.
So one does have to wonder about that.
But still, there it is.
Maybe we've got the weapons.
We didn't use them in Iraq.
No, I think these are, these are way too valuable to use in combat.
These aren't things that have been produced.
You know, we have, if we have any, uh, We're using the parts from the craft and their prototypes.
And I don't think anybody is risking putting these valuable things into battle.
I think it's, you know, unless we've developed another source for the materials, or have been able to duplicate them, you know, in the past 10 years, I really don't see that we're going to be going anywhere with that.
But who knows, maybe, maybe by this time, Research has continued and they've actually come up with something.
One of the key things that John Lear did during our last interview was he said, Hey Art, I'm going to take you to a briefing and you're going to get to say whether you think All of this, there should be total disclosure about everything the United States government has done since day one regarding this whole issue of extraterrestrials, what we've learned, what information we have, how we got it, what we've done with it, the terrible things government has done to protect the secrets and all the rest of it.
I'm going to lay it all out for you and you decide whether or not it should be all publicly disclosed.
You know, everybody in ufology is screaming for disclosure.
And so I'm wondering about you, Bob.
If you had a litany of things laid in front of you that we had done, some of them pretty terrible, if you buy it, would you say that there should be full disclosure, or is this something better kept from the American or the world public?
It's not better kept from the American people because, you know, we're supposed to be the government.
We hire these guys, elect them to their positions to take care of business.
Yes, sir.
So nothing is supposed to be kept from us.
However, you know, there are other countries, we do have an awful lot of people in the world that just hate us because we're alive.
And, you know, if you're concerned about weapons and the proliferation of Things of that sort.
You do need to keep certain things secret from the rest of the world.
However, it's one of the things that I had said initially, go ahead and keep all that stuff secret.
But just admit, hey, by the way, you know, a long time ago, we ran into some of these things.
This, this technology is real.
There apparently is Actual intelligent extraterrestrial life somewhere else.
And, you know, we have a few artifacts and, you know, go ahead and release some stuff to the public.
Look up here.
You know, here's a hinge made on another world.
Just something generic.
And, you know, keep all the other stuff secret.
But then I can also see the flip side of that.
That's going to whet everybody's appetite and there's going to be a furor over You know, disclosing the rest of the information and if the government's been keeping that for secret for so long, what else have they been keeping secret?
Well, yes.
I don't see the government coming clean with any of this stuff.
I mean, they're up to all kinds of no good.
Do you believe that there is a government behind the government, you know, sort of pulling the strings as it were?
I don't know about that.
I think ours is pretty Screwed up as it is, so I don't think it needs anybody else pulling any strings.
Yeah, you're right about that.
But surely there is some method for keeping this gigantic secret, and not all politicians, nor even perhaps all presidents are told about the existence of that.
Do you believe that?
No, I think, yeah, I think very few people know.
And one of the things they told me, which was one of my first comments there when I finally knew what I was working on, How do you guys keep this secret?
And what they told me was, this is the easiest thing in the world to keep secret.
Because it's so unbelievable.
And you know, when you really think about it, they're right.
Well, they are.
Because everything just gets dismissed or perhaps erased.
How much anger do you have for them now?
I mean, what they did to you.
They virtually erased your life.
Well, I don't know.
I've tried to put this out of my mind as I fight to try and just put this behind me and forget about everything.
A lot of people keep prodding me for information and it resurfaces in my mind, but for the most part, I just try and get rid of this.
At the time, sure, I was pissed off.
Uh, more so than you can possibly imagine.
And, uh, you know, as my friends at that time recall, I drove around in my little 280Z with an Uzi.
You know, that's the kind of trouble I expected, and I didn't go anywhere without it.
But, uh, you know, times have changed.
A lot of time has gone by, and, uh, I don't know.
It's kind of hard to say.
Yeah, it's always in the back of my mind, but, you know, what am I going to do?
To this day, I'm still fighting to get some Well, some things I can't even talk about, but back to the way it was, so I can be a normal person.
You obviously thought they were going to kill you.
Oh, no question.
That was the impetus for going on the news that one night.
Yeah, and the infamous Channel 8 thing?
Yeah.
You want to tell everybody about that?
Because, of course, not everybody in the rest of the country either recalls or knew about what happened with regard to that.
Explain exactly how that came down.
Well.
Hmm.
I'm wondering how far I should go back.
Well, essentially, after I left the project.
And it wasn't really voluntary, but I'm trying to remember exactly what happened.
In fact, I think it was that interview took place at John Lear's house.
It was George Knapp that talked you into it, wasn't it?
Yeah, it was a combination of both.
I think I had gone down to John Lear's house and really was afraid to go home at that time.
Hit out there for a while, and John said, why don't you go talk to George Knapp, and maybe if the stuff's all over the news, they'll just leave you alone.
It'd be your way of kind of pushing back.
George Knapp, folks, is a reporter for Channel 8, the CBS affiliate in Las Vegas.
Yeah, he was a... I'm sorry for interrupting.
No, that's alright.
George is just a very heavy-duty investigative reporter for that station.
I guess he was doing stories on John Lear at that time, and that's how you got involved in this.
If I remember correctly, you were put on television in a shadow behind something?
I can't remember.
Yeah, it was just a backlit shadow.
You couldn't recognize who I was, and the pseudonym I used was the name of my boss at the time, which was kind of a little Do you think John wanted you to do it to, in essence, back him up at that point?
Oh, I'm sure.
And apparently that caused quite a stir and I got a call shortly after that.
Needless to say, they were pretty upset with that move.
Do you think John, well I bet they were, do you think John wanted you to do it to in essence back him up at that point?
Oh, I'm sure. At that time, I mean you have to look at things at that time.
First of all, I got into the project thinking I was going to be working on a new fighter, a propulsion system for a
new fighter aircraft.
Yes.
And I was certainly not one of the people that believed in UFOs.
These were people that were just, you know, something to laugh at as far as I was concerned.
I already lost my train of thought.
Well, let me put you back in that chair and that night when the interview was done, what did you say to the audience that night?
Well, I was essentially just admitting that there were nine craft out there that they were actively back engineering and attempting to duplicate the power and propulsion system of the craft.
And that's basically about all that was said.
I mean, there were a few details about where it was.
That was enough.
That was like taking a match and throwing it on gasoline.
What was the reaction like after that?
Oh, it was pretty widespread.
It went all over the place.
You know, I had seen, because they interrupted, well, I don't know if they interrupted it, but it was in the middle of five o'clock news, live broadcast.
And I've seen that exact broadcast repeated on Japanese television and, you know, in Germany.
So it made the world fast.
What was the nickname you used for that interview?
Dennis.
Dennis.
Yeah, that's right.
Dennis.
A long time ago now, it must have taken great big ones to sit in that chair and say that on television.
Dennis Mariani was my supervisor at that time.
I see.
Okay, so after that story broke, I mean, you must have, you and John probably just sat back and watched the world explode around you.
Well, kind of.
Yeah, I mean, at that time, you know, John Lear was out there himself saying that there were flying saucers at the test site and all kinds of stuff that I thought was pretty silly.
But as it turned out, he was right.
I don't know what information source he had at that time.
He'd been telling you and saying that, so I guess maybe that's the reason that you went to John as dragging him along, saying, hey, I've got something to show you.
Maybe you just sort of felt as though you owed it to him in some way, huh?
Maybe.
I actually can't remember the exact reason.
It was just the people around me at the time I felt obligated to at least give a peek to.
Wasn't the tester company that makes models came out with a model of a UFO, of a flying saucer.
Quite a unique scale model of a flying saucer.
I have one of them.
How much of your input was used to create that model?
Oh, a hundred percent.
A hundred percent?
Yeah.
John Andrews from testers just sat down and said, Make a model of this and you want to help us or not?
Yeah, okay.
This is it.
They brought a couple guys in and you know off the top of my head I tried to remember some dimensions and we did some initial drawings and the craft just didn't look right and he had a couple friends that were I don't quite remember what they were they were skilled in but in any case they were able to Get the correct dimensions by me recognizing the sizes of known objects at various distances.
Sure.
And they kind of, you know, back-engineered it from that.
And we're able to get the proper dimensions.
And when the drawing was done, that did look correct.
And I think I'm more comfortable with the final drawings and dimensions they came up with.
And I think it came up to 52.8 feet in diameter or something like that.
When you look at the tester model today, do you look at that and say, yup, that's what I saw?
Yeah, no question, but they hit the nail on the head with that.
Really?
Yeah, that's exactly it.
How long a process was that for you to accurately, finally, you know, I guess it's like going to a police station and going to a sketch artist and have them finally come up with something that matches, you know, the person you saw.
If I remember it, it took a while.
Um, it probably took a month on and off of going over drawings, drawing the layout over and over again.
And, you know, having these, these guys look at it and then scale it up and see if it if things fit.
But it did take it did take quite a while.
All right.
Am I right or wrong?
Do you really have?
Do you own A missile silo in Roswell, New Mexico?
Yeah, John Perrette and I have a new project going down there.
It's a decommissioned nuclear missile silo just outside of Roswell.
It's not like I wanted a place outside of Roswell.
It just happened to be where I was.
How does it feel about getting a missile silo in the first place?
Who do you approach?
Well, I think they're actually on the Internet.
If you type in missile silo, there are a few left for sale, but they are pretty neat.
I believe where the missile sits is 200 feet deep, and these places are quite a deal compared to what the government paid for them.
I think they paid Close to $13 million just for the concrete.
Oh, I'll bet.
To build these places.
And it's literally bomb-proof.
You can set a thermonuclear bomb on the door and set it off and still be drinking beer inside for a while.
Why did you want a silo?
Oh, it was cool.
Just because it's cool?
Well, we also have some other plans for it.
That you can or can't talk about?
No, I really can't talk about it.
So this is a full decommissioned nuclear missile silo.
Yeah.
In Roswell.
Yeah.
Just not something that the average person would have or want, and I wish I knew what you were going to do with it, but you can't talk about that at all, huh?
Not really.
I can tell you some of the things we're not doing with it.
You're not launching missiles?
Yeah, unfortunately.
I couldn't find a reload kit for the place, but I would certainly have bought one if I could.
I see.
All right, hold that thought.
We'll be right back.
It's top of the hour.
My guest is Bob Lazar.
He does, he owns a missile silo in Roswell, New Mexico, and he'll tell us shortly things that Well, I guess he's not going to tell us.
He's going to tell us things he can't do with it, or he can't do with it, or maybe things that he will do with it.
we'll see what we can pry out of them next.
Thanks for watching.
Bye.
He's gonna give up the booze and the one night stands.
And then he'll settle down.
It's a quiet little town and forget about everything.
But you know he'll always keep moving.
No, he's never gonna stop movin' Cause he's rollin', he's the rollin' stone When you wake up, it's a new mornin' The sun is shinin', it's a new mornin' And you're goin', you're goin' home To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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Why would you own a missile?
Why would you buy a missile silo?
Well, because it's cool.
Now, you see, I can understand that answer, because it's cool.
Indeed, owning a missile silo would be cool.
coast to coast and worldwide on the internet.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
I like his answer actually.
Why would you own a missile?
Why would you buy a missile silo?
Well, because it's cool.
Now you see, I can understand that answer because it's cool.
Indeed, owning a missile silo would be cool.
Bob Lazar owns one and he's pretty cool and he'll be right back.
I'm Bob Lazar.
Once again, Bob Lazar.
Bob, you said you could describe some things that, what, you can't do, or you'd like to?
Well, one thing I do have to correct is my partner John Farad and I are involved in the silo, and John has far more Invested in it than I do.
So just to say that it's mine personally.
So you're not part of us.
I guess in in a respect.
I mean, but did you there's had to be more.
Well, maybe there didn't.
I you know, I was going to actually put a rocket on my front lawn to impress my neighbors.
I thought it'd be cool.
I mean, if you're a neighbor and you see a rocket go up in a guy's lawn.
So do you own a silo for the same reason?
Just for just what you said, it's cool.
Well, no, we actually have some serious plans for it.
I thought you might.
And, you know, you don't invest all kinds of money just for the hell of it.
But it's amazing the amount of rumors that start.
And generally, for some reason, when my name's involved somewhere, all kinds of ridiculous stories pop out of the woodwork.
But I think even Channel 8 carried that story in Las Vegas.
And in fact, when I was down at the silo, we got a call from the police in Roswell, and they sounded kind of embarrassed and said, you know, we're going to have to come down and check out the facility there.
And we asked why, and there was kind of a hesitation, and they said, I know this sounds crazy, but, you know, we have people that actually have come down to the station and That's a story in itself.
That got reported.
alien hostages underground in the silo.
And because they filed the report, they actually went down there,
obligated to go check things out, so they had to come down and verify that there's no aliens being held hostage in
there.
They actually did that?
Yeah, they did that while I was there.
Now that's a story in itself. That got reported. I missed that one.
Well, that was most recently, before I moved to New Mexico.
What had happened was just a random guy drove out there and was planning on committing suicide.
Now, of all the places in the world, this guy could have gone to kill himself.
He drove down the road to the silo, parked on top of it, and set his car on fire or something like that.
Anyway, the thing burnt to the ground and the guy was dead.
Prior to that, there's also wild animals, antelope, cattle, whatever in the area.
And there's been a couple dead cows out there.
So the connection between cattle mutilations and all this stuff started brewing in the minds of some people.
So somehow, it got around that I was developing a death ray in this underground facility, and that I tested it on cattle, which is why they were dead.
And of course, a guy came driving down the road and I vaporized his car.
And killed him.
I see.
And you maintain that none of this is true?
No, of course not.
But it's just amazing, the stories that get started.
Well, of course, you are Bob Lazar.
There is a certain aura around you, and when you connect that with buying a missile silo, people's imaginations naturally go berserk.
Well, berserk is a good word.
But, then again, you are Bob Lazar.
It is a missile silo, and to be honest, you haven't actually answered my question yet about what you're going to do with it, and you say you can't answer that question, and you know that's going to feed rumors?
got me thinking okay well are they well i don't know what you're going to
help them out Bob, over the years, especially in that time period when you were with John and the whole thing was coming down, how much, and you've done a number of public interviews, several with me, how much is left that you can't talk about?
Can't?
Can't, or unable to.
Concerning the UFO?
The whole thing, yeah.
Not a whole lot, but some.
There's just a couple little tidbits, and I think I've told you that before.
There's a couple things that I need, and this isn't to burn anybody and hold information back, but it's in case somebody claims that they were involved with the project or work there.
There are a couple things that only those people will know, and Anytime that anybody brings those up when questioned by me, I'll know.
So that's the only reason.
There's just a few little bits and pieces of information here and there.
All right.
Then let's go down that road for a second.
I mean, there are others like you, Bob, who worked out in and saw all of that.
Obviously, there had to be quite a number over the years of people who became aware of that knowledge.
Why are there not a lot more Bob Lazar's out there?
I don't know.
Initially, I was not supposed to be the only one that came forward.
Not supposed to be?
No.
You mean you had an agreement with someone?
Well, Barry, the guy that I worked with there, was supposed to additionally come forward, but that apparently never happened, so I was left out there in the dark.
Twisting in the breeze.
So, I don't know what happened.
So this Barry had promised you he would step forward with you?
Well, kind of.
And, you know, I wonder if it's wise really to comment too much on that.
Because I don't know what Barry's situation is now.
But we had, you know, we had talked about things.
But if somebody were to come forward and claim they had seen what you saw, they also know it to be true because they worked there, you would have a couple of questions you'd be able to ask them that would verify The authenticity?
Oh, sure.
Instantaneously.
Instantaneously.
Now, why did you move?
I mean, you've been a very long-time desert rat out here in the Las Vegas area, nearby me, and of course, the infamous Area 51, S4, and all the rest.
I mean, you lived here so long.
Why'd you move?
You know, after a while, Las Vegas gets to you.
I was there, and certainly Working at the test site was fascinating.
And a little bit of the work I did there when I initially moved to Las Vegas.
But after that, being out of the scientific field, I really went stagnant and really didn't produce or do anything that I really considered worthwhile and just needed to get out of the Las Vegas environment completely.
And New Mexico, especially around the Albuquerque area, you have two of the most prominent national nuclear labs here, Los Alamos and Sandia, and the cities here are filled with PhD scientists.
It felt good to get back into the mainstream of things.
In the short time I was here, in the first 18 months, I just began to actually produce what I consider decent work.
I started filing for patents and working on the hydrogen system.
I want to talk a little bit about that, as a matter of fact.
Patents on hydrogen fuel systems.
I know you've had them in your car.
You've run your car on hydrogen.
You did it for a long time, right?
Right.
Whatever patents you have, what's this about a SWAT team coming in and grabbing all of your data and computers?
You know, I have to stop you there.
We can't even touch that one.
I spoke to my attorney after I sent that email.
No kidding?
No, we've got to totally just... Not talk about that, huh?
Yeah.
Okay.
At any rate, now that you're back or you're in New Mexico, you feel like you're doing good work in your area once again.
Yeah, and I guess it's just a different mindset and also the immediate area that I live in.
Moving up isolated in the mountains in the middle of a forest and on a lot of acres of land is different than living right in the middle of Las Vegas in a You know, typically in town.
So it's just, it's a freer environment and I'm building my own research lab here.
I don't know, it's a lot more fertile ground for thinking and actually doing something serious.
Well, I do get the sense there is still an awful lot you can't talk about.
You said a couple of things, but then we keep touching on several things that still There's aspects of it that you can't talk about.
So I would say a lot of your life still is surrounded by having to keep secrets.
Are you good at keeping secrets?
No, I think it's been proven pretty well that I can't do that.
But it drives me crazy because the thing I would love, I could spend four hours on the phone I'm more pissed off than you can imagine talking about this SWAT team thing, but my hands are tied right now.
Maybe in the future I can say something about that.
No, attorneys are that way.
I know, and there's ongoing stuff.
And they're right, of course.
Ultimately, they're right.
But it does kill you not to be able to talk about something.
Yes, it does.
Do you think that you're working on, without asking you specifically what you're working on, Did any of your experience at S4M, what you saw and what you learned technically, have application in any work that you're either doing now or contemplating?
Yes.
Oh my, yes. Now I'm obligated to ask you about your project, what you envision, what you're
doing, even in general terms. Can you tell me a little bit about what you're working
on?
Bye.
Well, actually I'm overburdened with projects in progress.
As you mentioned, the hydrogen fuel systems, that's actually something I've been working on since the late seventies.
And that's finally come to fruition, and a lot of the materials needed long-term testing, and they've certainly had it now.
That's probably the biggest... Okay, perhaps you can answer a hydrogen question for me.
Now, hydrogen is being touted, even the President of the United States is touting it as the way to go, but there are others, Bob, who say, look, This is, in a way, all foolishness because, you know, to create hydrogen in amounts that would be good for the public to use, you know, for the energy cells, fuel cells, would require manufacturing, pollution, the use of energy.
In other words, all you're really doing is finding a new storage facility and way to store energy that still has to be produced, frankly, in the old-fashioned way.
No, not really.
Well, then lay it on me.
Not really how?
Well, first of all, there's two trains of thought here.
The automotive industry, the president and his advisors are all going down the fuel cell path.
And for those that don't know, a fuel cell is a device that takes gaseous hydrogen and oxygen, combines them and makes electricity.
And little fuel cell water dribbles out of it, because when the hydrogen and oxygen combine... That's the only by-product is water.
Right.
And so you can use these in cars, or to power homes, or whatever, right?
Right.
Well, you can use these things in their car of the future as fuel cells and an electric motor, and that's how the car is powered.
Now, that's very efficient.
It's around 35% efficient overall.
And that is pretty neat.
However, all the technology is not there.
The vehicles will be fantastically expensive.
None really exist right now in production.
And what about the billion cars that are on the road now?
What, is everybody going to dish out $175,000 for a new car?
And on top of that, they want to just replace gasoline pumps with hydrogen pumps and sell you the fuel again.
Alright, let's get back to refuting this.
In other words, No matter how it works, Bob, and it sounds like you're almost more on the negative than the positive side of this, but I mean, no matter how it works, aren't conventional fuels going to have to be used in copious amounts to produce these cylinders of hydrogen?
No, I don't.
The system that I came up with, first of all, converts a conventional car to burn hydrogen conventionally.
And with how much cost?
Let me get to that in a second.
The actual conversion is not that difficult, not that terribly expensive.
I have, I have not used any energy producing any of the hydrogen that I make, as far as power off the grid, fossil fuels or whatnot.
Hydrogen is easily electrolyzed by water.
You know, if you need to prove it to yourself, take a 12 volt battery, put both wires in the water, add a pinch of salt, you'll see bubbles coming off of one side.
Well, some off the other two.
That ought to be hydrogen.
Right.
Anyway, it's easily produced and it can be produced with solar panels or a wind turbine.
I use solar panels.
That's where all my hydrogen comes from.
I fill up the Corvette with it and we drive 700 miles on it.
And the car will also run on gasoline.
All right.
All right.
So that's perfected.
I mean, it works, right?
Right.
And it's worked for years and years and years.
Alright, let's say I buy a conventional automobile for, I don't know, twenty, thirty grand, something like that.
What would it cost to convert a car like that to hydrogen?
Well, the big hang-up right now has been the actual storage medium.
You don't want to store hydrogen as just a compressed gas, because it's dangerous, it's flammable, and on top of that, you need thousands of times more space To hold the hydrogen than you would an equivalent amount of gasoline.
Okay.
So it just doesn't work.
Right.
You don't want to store it liquid, because that's cryogenic.
It's dangerous.
It's just a big thermos bottle in your tank, and it's another big headache.
The third way is the best way, and that's a metal hydride.
And this is a granular material that absorbs hydrogen like a sponge absorbs water.
And it only releases the hydrogen when it's heated.
And when it's not being heated, I can fire incendiary bullets Through the hydride tank and it just smolders like a cigarette.
So it's extremely safe.
Wow.
And this is the material that I store the hydrogen in.
In the vehicles and for home use.
Is this the subject of a patent?
Yes.
It is?
Yeah.
Now there are various hydride materials and some were actually very difficult to get a hold of because some of them Like lithium 6 deuteride, which is a hydride, actually, well, the material I use is a hydride.
The only use for that material is in thermonuclear bombs.
And it's restricted, obviously restricted for sale.
And the only reason some of these hydrides are manufactured was for the weapons industry and they're done.
So in such small quantities, the cost was very high.
For instance, to convert the Corvette just for the tanks of hydride, we were looking at $15,000 without the hydrogen conversion itself.
So this is, you know, that's a pretty large price tag.
Out of line right now.
Right.
But if this whole thing were perfected and you had access to the materials, and it were done in mass, I'd like to get some idea of what it would cost to convert.
We've been working with the hydride manufacturers and they promise a 70% reduction in cost in volume production.
So does that make it viable?
Very much so.
I mean, wouldn't you pay between $4,500 and $6,000 to have your car converted?
You'll have your hydrogen generator at home so you can drive locally and even up to 700 miles away on hydrogen.
And if you want, you can always put gas in the tank and the car will switch over to gasoline when necessary.
I've always wanted to know, would I need to do that?
Would hydrogen give me the same or equal amount of horsepower?
Would I be happy with a hydrogen fuel?
You get a little less, you know, for instance, in a larger engine.
In fact, that's the reason we converted the Corvette.
Was a lot of these alternate fuel cars, these little Ford Escorts, and these little tiny motors, and it leaves everybody wondering, well, can't you power something substantial?
So he purposely did a large V8 engine, and yeah, it still lights up the tires and, you know, screams away.
There's a little loss in horsepower, but in a large engine, you're not going to detect a 10% loss in horsepower.
But you're still having a lot of fun, though.
I mean, it's enough horsepower that generally most people are going to be happy campers.
Oh sure, and most people are willing to pay that price tag if they never, ever have to go to a gas station again.
And who wouldn't?
On top of that, you're not supporting, you know, the oil cartel.
That's right.
Or anything else that's going on, or polluting the air.
Alright, I'll hold it right there.
Bob has a Corvette converted to hydrogen.
And he's had that for a long time.
And I guess the rest of the world is yet to come.
We'll continue to talk with Bob Lazar, who knows lots of things.
We'll see what we can pry from him as the hours continue.
From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
I'm Art Bell.
The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
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From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Bet on it.
We'll get questions from all of you for Bob Lazar coming up in the next hour.
Listen, check out my webcam.
By popular demand, I did put up a picture of the tester model.
I'm holding the tester model for you in case you've never seen it.
There it is.
That's Bob's accurate recollection of what he saw at Area S4 that I'm holding in my hands.
That's on my webcam.
Top left hand side of the Coast to Coast AM.com website.
By the way, there may be, in fact, we know there are other Bob Lazar's out there.
And if there are, I'd like to encourage you to contact me.
We'll work it out.
Trust me, a lot of people get a little older now and perhaps they'd like to talk about the things they saw up there.
If you would, email me.
My email address is artbellatminespring.com.
That's artbell, A-R-T-B-E-L-L, at minespring.com.
So if you're another Bob Lazar out there and you figure the time is right for you and you want to tell your story, I'm your guy.
That's the way to get me, artbellatminespring.com.
Bob Lazar will be right back.
And by the way, I was probably gonna screw up my little scenario pleading for some more Bob Lazar's to come forward.
But out of curiosity, Bob, tonight all across the world, people who have been involved up at Area 51 S4 have seen what you have seen.
These people, they're probably listening, Bob.
A lot of them are listening, you can be sure of it, actually.
And so, what would you say to these people?
Would you say, You know what?
Art's right.
Why don't you go ahead and email him and why don't you come on and tell what you know.
Would you advise them to do that?
No.
No?
I knew you'd screw it up.
Don't tell anybody what you know.
I knew you'd do that!
I knew it!
Yeah, well that really is my message.
Just forget it.
Forget it, huh?
Just forget it.
Don't bother saying anything.
It's not worth the hassle.
It's not worth it.
It's not.
And for the most part, nobody's going to believe what you have to say anyway, so don't even think about it.
Oh, thanks for the help.
I'm sorry, but you asked.
Yeah, I knew I guess what I was in for.
Okay, well, I know, but still, all right, but let me take the other side of it, Bob.
Let's fight this a little bit.
There's a lot of people out there like Stephen Greer, who I'll have on tomorrow night, and they really do make a compelling Damn strong case that, gosh darn it all, if we've been visited by aliens, if they've really been here, if we have their craft, their technology, and even bodies, and this is such an incredibly large story, so important to the human race, that nobody has a right to keep anything like this secret, and it should be told, it should be out in the open, and if these Bob Lazar's don't come in and talk to me and others, then how in the hell are we ever going to find out, because you said it yourself, the government sure isn't going to tell us.
Yeah, and I agree with that completely.
Well, then how can you say that?
From personal experience.
Yeah, in other words, you're not really a crusader at all, are you?
No.
You're not?
No.
I'm not involved in UFO research.
I don't follow the stories.
I don't do lectures.
I don't... I know you don't.
You know, I don't do any of that stuff.
You know, I try and put it behind me, you know, and a lot of people really You know, I have the drive to get this stuff uncovered, but generally those are the people that haven't been involved with anything.
And, you know, sticking your neck out on the line really does change your life forever, and it's not a positive thing.
You know, people really get the wrong impression.
They think that, you know, this is a, you know, a big boost in some way to you, and it's not by any stretch of the imagination.
So I you know why would I recommend somebody do that?
Well a lot of people Bob think that I mean when they have these reality TV shows and people line up for blocks and wait two days through the ice and the cold to get a chance to be you know have face time on television we do live in that kind of world and so some people suspect your motive is Yeah, but I hate being on TV.
I hate doing interviews and I don't do lectures and all that.
How could that possibly be my motivation?
Yeah, that's right.
Well, believe me, I do understand.
Do you have any knowledge, Diane up in Washington wants to know, I get a computer message every now and then, a lot of them actually, do you have any knowledge, it's a good question, of any agreement between Any group of aliens and humans or the US government, do you believe that to be true or know it to be true?
That there is some understanding?
I've heard rumors of that from various sources, but I don't have any first-hand knowledge of an actual agreement that was cut between anybody.
There's a lot of speculation, of course, about An agreement to allow some human beings, for example, to be abducted, you know, for research in return for, let's say, technology.
And John Lear alluded to all that and said that they, in essence, reneged on that aspect of what was supposed to be a deal.
I don't know.
I find that kind of hard to believe.
you know you'd never make that kind of thing public if you have made a deal to
shuffle off some of your citizens at random two guys who are going to do god knows what to interrupt
them up cut them up whatever they do
you who could never talk about that ever uh... i i i i find that kind of hard to believe
uh...
so then john has gone too far for you Is that right?
I'm sure he's listening.
I'm sure he's listening.
John knows he's gone too far for me.
John's convinced that there are people living on, or some sort of beings living on Venus and some other local planet.
That's right.
And that drives me crazy.
Does it?
Yeah, it absolutely does.
And a bunch of other things, he says.
Well, he's convinced there are artifacts on the moon, gigantic artifacts on the moon and Mars.
And others have said that as well.
Richard C. Hoagland and others have said there are things on the moon.
In fact, you know what?
There's speculation that the President of the United States, George Bush, is about to make a speech in which he's going to say the United States is going to go back to the moon.
There's going to be a shuttle mission to go back to the moon.
I heard that.
Yeah.
Yeah, I heard he was supposed to make some sort of announcement.
And we would do it, presumably, with a shuttle.
Really?
Yeah, really interesting.
How are you going to get the shuttle?
Don't ask me.
I have no idea, but that's what I'm hearing.
And actually, I've heard Mr. Hoagland say it's possible.
In other words, once you get into orbit, you're halfway to anywhere.
Well, sure, but if you want to actually get on the moon, it's a different story.
You know, the orbiter wasn't designed to do that at all, and in fact, it needs to be replaced with something else.
Yeah, it's getting pretty old.
Yeah.
Still, that's apparently what's going to be announced.
I could turn out to be wrong, but I don't know of any other spacecraft that we have in current production that would get us to the moon, do you?
No, but, you know, we do still have a Saturn V sitting there.
A Saturn V could do it.
Well, it was designed to do it.
With the launcher module and everything, it's sitting there in Florida.
Just, you know, dust the thing off and launch it.
Take the program right, you know.
You think it'll be alright?
Not like old ammunition?
I mean, it's pretty old now.
Well, you know, for the most part, you know, it's metal and components.
Just sit there with something you know that works.
Don't do what the United States typically does and reinvent the wheel constantly.
That got us to the moon.
Many times, it worked.
Just update it with some modern materials, electronics, and components, and use it since it's there.
And stop spending huge amounts of money doing nothing.
What can you imagine our motivation would be for going back to the moon?
I mean, we did go.
Most people believe.
Actually, I don't think we even went.
But I believe we went, and we got rocks, and we didn't get very many surprises.
And so, what could we do on the moon That always seemed more sensible to me to make a small moon base as opposed to a space station.
Oh, really?
Why?
Well, for various reasons.
First of all, the space station is limited in what it can do.
I know a moon base is much more difficult to get to.
It doesn't have to be large, but you can at least try and test out some technology On, you know, I'm trying to manufacture fuel, do some small refining, see what you can get from the surrounding environment.
You know, there, there have been reports, I think, I don't know, was it the Cassini?
Some radar mapping craft over the past four or five years detected that there were Supposedly large frozen areas of water on the moon.
However, they just went over that data again at another orbit and now are refuting some of that.
If you've got water, you've got energy and you've got the possibility for all kinds of stuff.
So we're back to a foggy area.
There may not be enough water there to manufacture fuel, which would be a necessity.
Right.
That would make it uninhabitable if they're completely reversing themselves now.
It's kind of strange to me.
A lot of people believe, Bob, that there are things on the moon, large glass structures, incredible things that were hidden from the world when we went to the moon and have been hidden ever since.
And that's the reason they say we haven't gone back.
I believe John is one of the people who believes that.
Yeah, he is.
I'm not one of the people that believe that.
You are not?
No.
No, absolutely not.
Then why go back, Bob?
Exploration.
You know, why go to the top of the mountain?
You know, it's a completely different world now than it was in the 60s.
There's a lot more technology, so there's a lot more we can investigate there.
You know, and the original reason to go to the moon was never to research the moon.
You know, aside from beating the Russians there.
The original intention was only to investigate the feasibility of making a small base there and launching a Mars mission from the moon.
This was all about going to Mars.
The moon was only supposed to be because it would be easier to get there from the moon, less gravity, so on and so forth.
That was just to be looked upon as a potential launching site for a Mars mission.
The interest was never in the moon.
I mean, we pretty much knew it was just a rock up there anyway.
The interest has always been in Mars, but Mars isn't that easy to get to.
Unless you had a moon base, and that would help.
Well, yeah, that would help.
It's a shortcut, and you could store fuel there.
If plants had gone how they should have, maybe we would have already been to Mars.
But I think that's...
The frontier we should look at is investigating that or go to go to Europa.
There's plenty of things in our immediate solar system that are, you know, potentially fascinating.
And, you know, Europa is probably the best chance of life, you know, in our solar system.
And, you know, even the hardcore skeptics at NASA pretty much agree there's a good chance there's something in the oceans there.
So, Bob, if we've got technology that can manipulate gravity, And damn, it was back in the early 90s when you knew that we had that.
Here we are launching, whether it's a Saturn V or a shuttle, or however we get back to the moon, and for what reason I'm not sure about, but whatever, we're using ancient buggy-like technology compared to what you know exists now.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I don't care what spacecraft they've come up with.
In my eyes, they still look like fireworks.
And they've proven themselves to be that on occasion.
Yes, it's a it is it's archaic technology.
And we do have something that operates differently.
However, it has limited fuel, a limited lifespan, and we don't want to lose it.
So it and as far as I knew, at the time, we couldn't even come close to duplicating Even the most basic parts of the device.
So, you know, what are you left with?
You're left with your own archaic method of transportation to other planets, and you can only investigate what's going on around you.
So then, Bob, we have been unable to decipher the manner in which, or duplicate the manner in which, gravity is manipulated by the devices on the craft that you saw.
Obviously, we've failed.
What?
In other words, otherwise we'd be using this technology, so we failed?
Well, quite possibly.
Now again, I hesitate because I'm talking about my knowledge from the early 90s and late 80s.
I don't know what's happened up till today.
But as far as I knew back then, yeah, we've failed.
That's the bottom line.
We're not going to be duplicating that.
Do you think these craft When tested, were taken outside the Earth's atmosphere?
No.
You do not?
No, I know that for a fact.
For a fact?
Yeah.
I don't, I don't... Well... Well?
Why?
No, go ahead.
Just whisper it in my ear.
Yeah, I pretty much know that for a fact.
Why, out of curiosity... This is what we're getting right, real close to one of the areas that I said that I purposely don't talk about, so I know if anybody's been involved with the project, which has to do with the craft and where it's gone.
Oh!
This is why you're hearing my hesitation on this.
Okay, well, the next thing out of my mouth was going to be, why do you think, if we thought, or if we... Well, look, this is a very valuable article, and It's an operating craft.
I don't know if the other crafts were operating.
We know this one does.
There's only one of them.
In other words, would you risk taking this out of the Earth's gravitational pull and losing it in space?
Yeah, it's a very good point.
It's a very good point.
You know, this is their prized possession.
And you believe we still have that safely wherever?
By the way, do you think it's still up there?
Do you think it's been moved?
And if so, where do you suppose?
I don't know.
I always thought that was an odd place to put it, because in the early days of the nuclear weapon development, some of the best places that they kept everything were in the South Pacific, like Kwajalein Island and things of that sort.
It's a good point.
You don't have any looky-loos there, no hassles from From anybody.
You're in the middle of nowhere and nobody can get there without you seeing them.
What a tremendous point.
That's where I would have put it.
I wouldn't have built this secret base in the middle of Nevada outside of Las Vegas.
And the only reason they moved the nuclear test site to Nevada was because it was just too expensive running supplies back and forth and all the personnel to the South Pacific.
Well, you don't have that problem with the ET program because it's limited personnel, limited supplies, and You know, go hide it in the middle of the ocean on an island like they did with everything else.
So if I was going to put it somewhere, that's where it would be.
Why do you think instead it ended up here in Nevada?
I don't know.
I mean, because obviously there are going to be more people conceivably seeing what's going on.
There's got to be a reason.
Somebody must have a You know, I mean, Bob, they still drive up to the mailbox.
People take videos.
People take pictures.
So then there's another great theory that you might want to comment on.
That is that they want there to be a slow time release of information.
They want rumors.
They want talk about this subject for some reason that fits their agenda.
Otherwise, put it in the South Pacific and Well, there may be some other shortcomings of having it out in the middle of the ocean that we're not thinking of.
Perhaps.
I don't know.
Maybe they need lots of supplies to deal with this thing.
Maybe they figured if it crashed, it's going to be deep down under the Pacific somewhere, potentially, and we'd lose it that way.
That's quite possible, too.
The desert is good for one thing, isn't it?
There, and it's fairly arid, and you'd definitely be coming down on land if you landed in a strange place.
Anywhere in Nevada, yeah.
So maybe your original point is actually the reason.
It could be.
That they wouldn't want to risk losing the one model they've got.
Then you figure they're still working on trying desperately to back-engineer this, or do you think by now they've done it?
It's been a long time.
It sure has.
I would hope they have made some substantial progress in ten years, but, you know, if you don't have access to exotic materials, then what are you going to do?
No fuel, and that's... You know, like I said before, being back in the 1800s, and if you want to make something out of plastic, you know, all you can do is look at it and say, hey, this is really neat, but You know, how do we make this stuff?
Hold on, we're at the top of the hour.
we'll be right back with bob was are and you the
the the
the We're gonna love you, love you, gonna love you.
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And because we do, we're going to let you talk with Bob Lazar in a moment, if you'll stay right where you are.
eight nine three zero nine zero three from coast to coast and worldwide on the internet
this is coast to coast a m with art bell we love you baby and because we do
we're gonna let you talk with bob lazar in a moment if you'll stay right where
you are the forum
the questions are directly ahead
by the way tomorrow night we'll give Dr. Greer, what I now call the Lear Test.
We'll give him the Lear Test.
And I just can't let go of that.
Ever since John said what he said on this program, I can't let go of it.
For some reason.
Anyway, coming up in a moment, Bob Lazar is going to attempt to answer your questions.
I guess what I would say is prepare yourself, Bob, because you never know what's going to come.
All right.
It's fun, Bob.
Don't worry.
It's actually fun.
It's fun.
What's the John Lear test, by the way?
Oh, what's the John Lear test?
It's really cool, to use your phrase.
John took me to a briefing.
In essence, he said, Art, imagine you're going to this briefing.
And I'm going to lay the briefing out for you, showing you slides and, you know, putting things on the blackboard.
And I'm going to explain to you everything the United States and world governments have ever done, regard the whole E.T.
issue.
And you tell me at the end of it, if you would say, OK, make it all public.
OK, yeah, this is what you had touched on before.
OK.
And, you know, at the end of it, I said no.
I wouldn't.
Oh, really?
Oh, absolutely.
That really intrigues me.
Why would you say that?
Because some of the things that John said are so far beyond the pale that the religious implications, the social implications, the fact that I do believe people would go berserk, I mean completely berserk, it would take down our government, it would disturb the world, it would disturb the force, it would be... You really think people really wouldn't be able to handle this?
Well, you've got to remember now that the test was given from the John Lear perspective, and remember that John believes a lot of things to be true that you don't, right?
I am quite aware of that.
And so, to take the John Lear test, you've got to take what he says as gospel.
In other words, here's what some of the terrible things we've done, really terrible things.
Would you Make it public.
And if you had to assume that everything he said there is correct, I guarantee you, I'll betcha you'd come up with the same answer.
So... Well, yeah, I'd come up with the same answer without that.
But, I mean, I truly hope everything John Lear believes isn't true.
But, uh... Me too!
Oh, me too!
But I have been proven wrong before about many other things, so who knows?
Alright, you ready?
Yeah, sure.
Okay, here we go.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Lear.
Hello!
No, Bob Lazar.
I've got John on the mind here.
Bob Lazar!
How you doing?
Hi, Art.
Hi, Bob.
Hey there.
Howdy.
It's a pleasure to talk to both of you.
It's been a while since I talked to you, Art.
Well, glad to have you back.
Bob, I just missed meeting you by day one time, and I regret that.
Where was that?
That was down in Nevada.
Oh, okay.
I was wondering if you knew about a material called starlight.
It was supposedly created by a couple of scientists, but I've always had suspicions it was, you know, alien technology.
Starlight?
What is this material, sir?
Well, a physicist told me about this material.
It's like two liquid plastics, and when you put it together, it forms an indestructible solid.
A nuclear blast won't touch it.
Nothing will destroy it.
Have you heard of such a material, Bob?
No, I'm... I'm pretty skeptical about a claim like that.
Well, it's not supposed to be classified.
And it came from a pretty reliable source.
And also, John wanted me to ask you about the orange crate in the crater Copernicus.
John wanted you to ask me about the orange crate?
Right.
The crate on the moon.
John who?
Lear?
John Lear, yes, that's correct.
Oh, okay, I know what you're talking about.
He showed me a picture one time and there was a perfectly square object on a moon picture and said, well, what's this orange crate doing there?
And we were arguing about some of the images from the moon and these grainy little things with a couple dots and John was claiming, well, that's just the reflection from a giant You know, glass dome over so-and-so.
But anyway, he did have some pictures that, you know, I couldn't explain.
Well, you know, Bob, and some of what John says is pretty wild.
I mean, there's no doubt about it.
But on one hand, Bob, you're somebody who's actually seen alien craft.
Most of us haven't.
So to have seen what you've seen, are the things then John says really so crazy?
Yes.
Well, I mean, you see, a lot of people would say, flying saucers, we got them.
You've seen them.
Oh, come on.
That's crazy.
I know that's crazy.
And maybe it makes me a hypocrite for saying so.
But look, I am the first one to admit that if somebody came forward to me with my identical story and laid everything in my lap, I'm not sure I'd buy it.
So I can't expect anything else from anybody else.
And in fact, I almost prefer people don't believe it because then I get hassled less about it.
Martin in San Rafael says, and I think this is accurate and why I love interviewing you, it says, Lazar continues to be the most credible witness of all.
Straightforward, direct, not self-serving, no books, tapes, no website, nothing to sell.
He just describes what he saw reluctantly at that.
He makes a believer of this skeptic.
So, in that way, you really do sell your story.
I mean, you're so damn low-profile about all of this, like you don't want to talk about it.
Well, it's not a business.
I'm just relaying what happened to me at the time, and that's it.
That's the end of the story.
Where it's gone and how all this stuff came about is beyond my scope of knowledge, and I don't profess to know anything that I You know, I haven't been exposed to, but you know, I will stand on what I have seen.
I've got that, but I mean, as incredulous as it sounds, why not believe other incredulous things?
I mean, if there are saucers here, if there were bodies recovered, if we actually have aliens, then certainly some of the stories about aliens could easily be true.
Well, and maybe so, but I'm spoiled.
I had some things verified to me and had hands-on experience.
I got to touch them, I got to see them, I got to analyze them and said, okay, this is real.
Now, for the layman or researcher or whatever that hasn't, everything is in the same category to them.
It's all conjecture.
You know, yet I've had some things proven to me and I hold on to those like an anchor.
Okay, I know this is real, but I don't know about anything else.
I don't know if Betty and Barney Hill were abducted, but they have a compelling story.
I don't know if the Roswell crash occurred, but that's a compelling story.
Some of the stories you hear are totally illogical and don't make sense, and to me, they fit in the category.
You try and maintain an open mind and remain scientific about it, but you have prejudices in either direction, as most intelligent people do.
I don't believe everybody that says they were abducted was abducted.
But they might have been.
How would I know?
It's just my own personal belief.
No, of course not.
I don't believe it all either, Bob.
I might even go so far as to say large chunks of it that I don't believe.
But some of this I do believe is true, and based on what you saw and you know to be true, then it's not too hard to imagine that there was interaction.
We might not know the exact There were parameters of that interaction, but there was interaction with aliens.
Chances are there was, in some way, shape, or form over a period of time.
By the way, on another note, I get so many emails about this.
Apparently in some other show, and I just got three more recently, in some other show, you spoke to somebody, a female, that said, They claimed that I took her out to Area 51 and showed her around.
That's right.
Does this ring a bell to you?
Oh, absolutely.
I remember that.
This is the most ridiculous story I've ever heard.
So that didn't happen either, huh?
As if they allow visitors to top-secret security installations.
That's absurd!
Who would even claim something like that?
In either case, that's just another one of those knuckleheads.
Just likes to hear themselves talk for some reason.
Okay.
As a matter of fact, I had an email from this person just yesterday, Bob.
Really?
Yes, she imagines quite a relationship, Bob, with you.
Oh, really?
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Not true, though.
No.
First time caller on the line.
You're on the air with Bob Lazar.
Yo-ho.
Okay.
I'm calling because I'm a physics student.
All right, speak up good and loud.
Okay.
That's better.
I'm calling about the gravitational amplifier system.
I'm interested in this because I'm a physics student and I was thinking that kind of at the forefront of physics research now, it's kind of a push to detect gravitational waves, which is a tough thing to do, and probably ultimately discover the gravitational particle, the graviton.
And I was thinking about this three-pole system that you described is very directional and maybe a
gravitational current is involved.
I was wondering if that maybe hints at why we can't figure out what is going on there.
Do you have any thoughts on that?
Well, this is more of the research I wanted to conduct while there.
While I wanted to get down to the hardcore research in gravity and how the energy propagates by itself.
And by the way, I don't believe there are gravitons.
I don't believe there's particles involved.
I don't believe it's even a wave-particle duality, like light photons are.
I think this is... Well, it appears to be more of a wave effect.
And exactly how it propagates is...
At least I don't personally understand that.
It almost seemed to propagate as microwaves did, since anytime inside the craft, the basic gravity wave was routed anywhere from the reactor to the amplifiers, it always traveled inside tuned pipes.
So, again, that implies at a specific frequency you should have some sort of gravitational effect, if it's just a basic carrier wave of some sort, but You know, that that doesn't appear to be true.
So it's something it's something more than that.
Well, we know, don't we, that microwave can be carried in like oblong tubes, right?
Waveguide?
Right, exactly.
Waveguide.
So that's what connected the reactor to the skin of the craft and ultimately to the... So then whatever the nature of this wave is, you could imagine it like microwave because it was carried according to your physical description, kind of the same way.
Right, but if it's just a basic wave, you know, you could just set up a high-frequency oscillator, and then as you slowly increase the frequency, you get different effects.
You know, you get microwaves, you get... And it's all part of the electromagnetic spectrum, and you get x-rays and whatever.
You should just run into gravity at some point, but you don't.
So, there's something else there, but they were so concerned about the actual application of it, they weren't really concerned about, you know, the research into the basics of it.
Which, you know, probably if it would have been done that way when I was there, I at least I think it would have given us a clue.
At least a better clue.
Of how to use it and how to duplicate it.
But again, you think, Bob, don't you, that they're now still, if they haven't done it, they're certainly pursuing it.
You wouldn't give up on something like that, would you?
Are you kidding?
Not a chance.
Not a chance.
I'm sure just tremendous amounts of money are being funneled into this, and I'm sure they continue to handpick specific people that they can think, anyway, are going to keep their mouths closed and be involved with it.
There was a frustration even when I got there.
By the way, I wonder what happened to the person that picked you?
That's a good question.
Hey, caller, caller, anything else?
Yeah, actually, I was wondering if Bob hasn't... I'm sorry, Mr. Lazar, I shouldn't... Bob is fine.
Mr. Lazar is my dad.
I was wondering if you had any thoughts as to the propagation speed of the wave.
We know light travels at a certain speed, or at least we assume it's a constant speed.
Do you think...
You think that gravity is different?
Good, good question.
Yeah, excellent question.
Because from all indications, the propagation is instantaneous.
And I know that it upsets everything, but remember gravity in itself distorts time and space.
And every way we attempted to measure the propagation from the reactor base to the emitters themselves, there was no delay at all.
And so I believe I don't know if the wave is actually propagating instantly or the fact that it's a gravitational wave is distorting the time-space around it and making it appear as if it's an instantaneous propagation.
But those are the results that we got.
Bob, you said you actually measured no delay at all.
How carefully was that measured?
I mean, no delay at all is quite a statement to make.
You could measure the speed.
So there was there was there was no delay at all.
And we, again, envisioned other potential uses.
You know, here's a look at communication to Mars is still a flat 20 minutes between our little robot orbiters and things of that sort.
You know, here you have the potential.
If, in fact, there is instantaneous propagation of gravitational waves, you know, here's a fantastic communication device where there's no delay.
Where you can talk in real time at great distances.
So the, you know, obviously there's just tremendous implications of this technology.
Even time travel?
It's possible.
You know, gravity distorts time.
And if gravity, if the speed of gravity, which is not defined, is faster than light, then you certainly have time travel based on that alone.
Well, you know, like they say, time travels a lot more common than you think.
Time travel to the future happens all the time.
All you have to do is stand there, stand on a high mountain, go into a spacecraft, travel fast.
You do slip nanoseconds into the future.
Time travel backwards.
Is it debatable whether or not that's even possible?
Well, we're off on a tangent.
Caller, any final thing?
I guess there's one other thing.
You mentioned an element 115.
I'm assuming that's atomic mass number.
I think that goes further than the periodic table.
Is that true?
Right, that's correct.
So maybe that kind of Insinuates that you're dealing with a higher amplitude gravity waves and I guess more to start off with if you're going to amplify it.
I mean, well, yeah, there's something unique about that element.
Just like there's something unique about the nuclear elements we use in reactors, but something apparently happens different there that doesn't.
And I know there were previous attempts to duplicate what was going on with other materials, other nuclear
materials, and there was no success in that. So there is something very unique
about the fuel and specifically what it is.
You know, on an atomic scale, we were only just beginning to look into that. Bob, I heard some rumors
about some kind of speculating about or perhaps lab work going on something surrounding
It's just between when you told your story and now sometime or another I remember hearing about some legit science dabbling with the concept of 115 or something.
I can't remember.
Yeah, I believe it was the lab for heavy ion research in Darmstadt, Germany and at the time they were on the cutting edge of coming up with new elements and they were They were shooting for producing element 115 at one point, and they were using a new technique.
Instead of bombarding something with neutrons, they were just slamming nuclei together, and somehow it was fusing into heavier elements.
But I don't think they reached it.
And in fact, I don't know if it was the same lab, but Somebody found out that there was false data.
I mean, the last heavy element that was claimed, it might have been 113.
What do we think the properties of this element would be, generally?
Well, that's hard to predict.
I mean, we certainly observed some unique properties of it.
It's incredibly heavy and incredibly dense.
Aside from that, the way the reactor worked in the craft, It was like a small accelerator, and it constantly bombarded the 115, which transmuted and immediately decayed, and that's when it produced its gravitational pulses.
And as a byproduct, it produced a tremendous amount of heat inside this one... Alright, we're at the bottom of the hour.
Hold on.
This is really good stuff.
Bob Lazar is my guest.
But yeah, John Lear is on my mind.
The test tomorrow night for Dr. Greer.
And I know it means like a bell through the night.
And who would she love to love her?
Taste to the sky like a bird of flight.
And who would be her lover?
What a life you've never seen.
A woman drenched by the wind.
What a day!
All our times have come.
Here but now they're gone.
Seasons don't fear the reaper.
Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain.
We can be like them.
Come on baby.
Don't fear the reaper.
Baby take my hand.
Don't fear the reaper.
We'll be able to fly.
Don't fear the reaper.
Baby I'm your man.
Wanna take a ride?
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Well, for sure, fascinating stuff.
Bob Lazar, man who's had hands-on with alien craft, hands-on with alien propulsion, Element 115, that's another story that he can't quite totally talk about, nor will John Lear.
In a moment, we continue with Bob.
Bob, stay right where you are.
Bob, you ready for more?
Sure.
Yeah, these are pretty good.
And you were in the middle of I don't want to miss out on anything else you'd like to say about the propulsion system and how Element 115 was acting in the process.
You know, I was on a roll at the minute, and now I can't quite remember.
Well, you remember you said it was hitting Element 115.
Oh, how the reactor operated.
I guess I drifted onto that.
And how the 115 itself was bombarded, released, in some way, shape, or form, releases a pulse Gravitational wave, and kind of as a byproduct, releases a tremendous amount of heat, and that heat is converted to electricity, which runs the craft.
However, there's no wiring or any conventional connectors or controls or anything of that sort on the craft.
But all incredibly fascinating, and you know, to a scientist, it's a dream come true.
So yeah, yeah, sure, in some respects, I regret the way things turned out, but I don't know.
Maybe eventually we'll all find out what's going on.
Yeah, I wonder.
I really wonder.
As the world grows short of oil, and the wars are raging because of it, and we prepare to go back to the moon, maybe in the shuttle of all things, I don't know.
It just seems like if all of this really is there, and yet I guess the answer is that you suggest we have, as of Well, the date you knew anyway, not been successful in the back engineering attempt, so we don't have it down yet, or if we do, for some reason we're not willing to begin to release it.
I mean, you'd think they could do it through industry, you know, sort of sliding things slowly into industry as some development or something, just to get it into the economy.
Possibly.
And maybe that's already been done.
Every time somebody points at something, you know, there is also conventional explanations for it.
We really haven't seen anything, you know, incredibly amazing pop up.
We see improvements over products here and there and, you know, a couple things, but there really hasn't been any quantum leaps.
You know, in recent times.
Well, you may recall, if you ever heard Colonel Corso's story before he passed on, that he suggested that's exactly how a number of things made it from the Roswell crash to modern industry.
Pretty interesting stuff.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Bob Lazar.
Hello.
Hello.
Yes, hi.
Okay.
Hi, Art.
Hi, Bob.
How are you?
Speak up in loud, sir.
Okay.
This is Alan from Colorado, and I have three questions, so I hope you can bear with me.
All right.
My first question is, if Altrich Ames of the CIA can go to jail for so many years because he revealed government secrets, how is it that Bob was able to pull this off?
And then my second question... Okay, let's do them one at a time.
Bob, pretty good question.
If you'd been revealing secrets of the magnitude that we've been talking about tonight... Well, of course... Well, what would you jail me for?
Well, what would you jail me for?
You know, when somebody gives away, you know, secrets, satellite secrets or other technology
secrets and, you know, that information has to be brought out.
So, okay, you're going to take me to court and say, okay, you released the information.
What did he release?
Oh, well, secret stuff.
Well, why?
You know, you're not going to trick them into admitting that they're trying to keep secrets.
Yeah, and something of this magnitude.
Exactly so.
So I guess I would answer that caller.
I mean, after all, if they charged him with something, they would simply underscore everything he said.
Next question.
Okay, the next question is, are there not simpler ways to create gravitational propulsion effects?
You know, like with scalar waves, possibly?
I mean, we're talking Element 115.
This whole procedure seems so exotic and so advanced.
Can we not work with what we have now?
There have not been gravitational waves produced in any other method.
And there are claims as such all over the place and people say you can do it with these mercury engines.
I've heard scalar waves.
I've seen, you know, all of that data.
The bottom line is, it's not real.
Next.
Okay, last question.
T Townsend Brown, John Searle, Victor Shawberger with his Vortex Technology, John Keel, Otis T. Carr, All these researchers, which this relates to the second question, and I think I know how you're going to answer it.
How do you feel about what they've so-called contributed to gravitational propulsion technology?
Contributed where?
Where is it?
Show me one.
Bring it down here, I'll even fly and see it.
Every time I've wasted my time on that, looking at everybody that's claimed any of that stuff, it's never panned out.
It's like perpetual motion.
Yeah, there's plenty of claims.
People are looking for funding to research this or do that.
For the most part, not for the most part, there is no device of any sort that can create a gravitational wave now.
And go ahead and prove me wrong.
Other than what was at S4.
Damn, you are such a reasonable person.
No, but that's a fact.
Please, prove me wrong.
I'll go and check out what you're going to claim.
With you all the way, but you see, that's what makes your other claims so damn legit, in my mind, just like that person who fast-blasted me.
Geez.
Louise, in every other way, you're so... Now, I'm not belittling these people that are doing this work.
You know, Dee Dams and Brown, many others were Brilliant people doing work, and I think a lot of the things they observed have other explanations.
Yes.
And, you know, just because something lifts off the ground does not make it gravity propulsion.
But gravity propulsion, I define as something that's acting directly against gravity, and I don't mean being lifted by electrostatic forces, something like that, something that's actually counteracting.
Your skepticism everywhere else just is so strange in light of what you say.
I barely believe my own story.
That's how big of a skeptic I am.
Hello, Bob.
It's nice speaking to both of you.
I'm from Pasadena, Miami-Dade.
For over 20 years, I've been within the research of exobiology.
I don't want to mention any names, but my ex-father-in-law, who was with the CIA, At Groom Lake, before he died of Agent Orange, he asked me if there's anything I would like to know about Area 51.
And I said, yes.
Is the government cover-ups of UFOs and ETs true?
He said yes, because he stood guard several feet away within one of the hangar bays, guarding ETs from the UFO that was being brought from one place to another.
But this person, your dad, has passed on?
Yes, he passed away.
See, he was all fed up with the government for what they were doing to him.
Because he spent so much time in the service and all that, you know, with them, that they wouldn't do any more for him.
And so he just said to heck with it.
Yeah, they have a pretty bad record of taking care of their own people.
But yeah, you find a lot of people as they come close to the end of their lives.
Look what happened with the JFK thing.
You know, just if enough time goes by, people become More comfortable releasing what they know.
Yeah, well that's why I said there's got to be other Bob Lazar's out there, and there surely are.
So, you take the very moral position that you would rather see them not come back for their own sakes than come back and verify your story.
Oh, absolutely.
If you're listening, don't listen to Art.
Don't say anything.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Lazar.
Hello.
This is Bob in Beaverton listening to KEX.
Yes, sir.
I want to know, Bob, have you ever heard of the work of Jerry Gallimore, who under certain conditions could see gravity?
No, never heard that before.
Okay, the way he did it was doing the old high school science class project.
Just lay a bar magnet on a table and put the paper on it and sprinkle the iron filings on it.
So you can see the magnetic lines of force.
Okay.
But Jerry was a Native American and something of a shaman, and around the center point of that magnet, he could see a halo of energy that was gravity.
Okay, and here is where the... Why did he think it was gravity?
The metaphysical meets science.
Well, regardless, he thought that.
So, do you ever wonder about that?
At all, Bob.
I mean, the entire metaphysical world.
Maybe it's all hooey.
Maybe it's another one where you can say, prove it to me first.
But, boy, I'll tell you, there's some good stories out there.
I hear them all the time about things that we simply really don't understand regarding the afterlife.
And I'm sure that that is true.
You know, to be so bold to say that why we have Science handled and we pretty much know what's going on and everything is cut and dry.
And you know, that is so far from the truth.
We, you know, we aren't even even at the tip of the iceberg as far as knowledge about everything around us and, you know, talk about the metaphysical stuff.
We really have no idea what's going on.
And a lot of these things that, you know, people think are silly, You know, and the things that I may laugh at may actually turn out to be true.
So, it's important to keep an open mind.
There's going to be a place, Bob, where the metaphysical, or something in the metaphysical, square on meets science, and science suddenly will say, oh my God, there is another side, or oh my God, we really now suddenly have proof to some degree of a soul, some Way to prove something in the metaphysical.
Who knows what it might turn out to be, but somewhere science and metaphysical will suddenly meet, I predict it.
First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Bob Lazar.
Hello.
Hi, this is Ken in Salt Lake, and I'm just loving your program.
You guys are both wonderful.
Thank you.
I have an observation and a question.
The observation is in Encarta, in Microsoft Encarta, in the encyclopedia, there's a reference about Element 115 If you go into 1976, look under Physics, 1976, it talks about element 115 as being present in a meteorite that came into the Earth's atmosphere, and also the heavier elements.
Wait a minute, where was this again?
In Encarta, which is the, I guess that's the, what is it, the encyclopedia that you get for your computer from Microsoft.
Microsoft and Carta, and you go to 1976, we're under physics.
Are they talking about a meteor that had element 115 in it?
115, and they were able to measure it and deduce that it had element 115 in it.
And also, the other references for 116 through about 124 at the end of the article, it says they were measured in mica schist that was in Africa.
Wow.
So in mica schist, which is I guess a rock formation, there's trace when they
bombard it with a Van de Graaff generator at high energy gives off a pattern of atomic, some signature that shows
that those elements were there.
The logic is there, they talk about it.
Well, that's really interesting.
Now, this isn't in CARTA.
We're not talking about something that's on the internet?
No, we're talking about Encarta that you'd buy for your computer, which is an encyclopedia from Microsoft.
It comes from Microsoft, right?
Yeah, the Microsoft software program.
And what did you look up to find this?
Under physics, 1976.
All right, great.
At the bottom of the article, it's in there, the reference.
Okay, the other question I have, the only question I have... All right, stop for a second.
Out there, if somebody would be so kind as to do the research, email it to me.
I'll have it by tomorrow night.
Continue, sir.
Okay, let's see, one other question.
That is, I heard the rumor that somebody had tried to open one of the reactors somewhere Yeah, I heard that, and I heard that officially, too.
Oh, really?
Yeah, that was one of the things that was told to me.
In fact, that was one of the reasons why I worked there, because I was allegedly replacing one of these people, so the previous Bob Lazar got a little too close to what was going on, apparently.
From what I recall from the story, I believe it was in March, and I don't remember the date, but it was announced as a nuclear test.
And there is a corresponding date for that test, and what they have listed as the test is completely false information.
That was the detonation of the reactor at the test site.
The detonation.
Exploded with the force of, you say they announced it as a... It was a low-yield test.
Remember they used to do that in Las Vegas?
Oh sure, I used to announce it, you know, get off high buildings, that kind of stuff.
Right, they'd always tell you in advance.
But anyway, that data is on their site.
Not about what it was, but that date, and I don't remember it, when March, I'm sure George Knapper, one of those guys... Do you know anything about the nature of the explosion?
Yeah, I know it was The intention was, well, the frustration was with the reactor at that point.
And for whatever reason, somebody had the bright idea, well, let's try and open it while it's operating.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Oh, my.
Extra smart guys working on this problem.
So they took this, they took the one of the prototype, not the prototype reactors, one of the reactors from one of the other craft.
And by the way, they all looked exactly the same, not the craft, but the reactors.
And they took it to the nuclear test site and it was done remotely, underground.
And the people monitoring it, apparently were too close.
And they didn't, they didn't realize the explosion was, you know, going to be that large and it did.
And again, this isn't something I witnessed, this isn't something I was told, but it was something I was told while I was out at the site.
So He just has another notch of authenticity because I heard it out.
How many people allegedly lost their lives in this, do you know?
I don't recall.
It wasn't like there were a lot of people.
There were two or three people from what seems to stick in my mind, but I can't say that for sure.
I don't recall.
I did hear that exact story.
I'll be doggone.
I had never heard any of that.
All right.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Bob Lazar.
Hello.
Yes.
My name is Ben.
I'm just outside of Boston.
OK.
And I've got a question going back to Bob's comments about running his car on hydrogen.
OK.
Fire away.
OK.
Over the last bunch of years, Nexus Magazine has run at least a couple of articles about running one's car on hydrogen using electrolysis.
In other words, generating the hydrogen on board, on demand.
Some people I've spoken to about it say it's a ridiculous idea, that it's impossible, that it would take... I'm one of those people.
Really?
More energy?
It's not happening.
You can't crack water that fast.
Oh, really?
Yeah, you can't.
Because there's a guy... Unless you're carrying a nuclear power plant behind you.
You just can't.
Water doesn't come apart that fast.
Flash, wave, in fact, I met a physicist from Sandia Labs here and was talking to him and they have this neat device that kind of works on a plasma pulse and cracks water at much higher volume than electrolysis.
In fact, a guy emailed me recently that has something that does that with hydrocarbons.
But as far as, you know, driving a car and having and producing hydrogen By electrolysis from water at a volume great enough to keep the car running, it's never going to happen.
So you are required really to generate the hydrogen at some other time, some other place, and then pipe it into the car and store it.
Our product is a small hydrogen generator, kind of like a dishwasher.
It sits in your garage, solar panels, and it takes Two to three days to fill the tanks, because it takes a lot of energy, and it takes a long time to do it.
Now, there are faster ways, but, you know, they consume more power, and well, some don't, but are more complicated, don't use water, so on and so forth.
Ours is a low-cost, just uses, connects to the water line, uses solar panels, and slowly cranks out hydrogen, and you can, over a period of two to three days, fill the tanks in your car, and then, you know, you can drive 700 miles.
Ideally, you'd have several sets of tanks, and just fill them, and And what not.
But that's the only way to do it.
I've been playing with hydrogen fuel systems since, you know, the late 70s.
And you just can't make it fast enough.
A few seconds.
You're happy.
All right.
Thank you.
And take care.
And I'm afraid that time is slipping by.
No, it has slipped by.
And the end of the program is here.
So, hey, Bob, man, what a great program.
Again, every time you come on, it's a great program.
Hey, always great to talk to you, Art.
And maybe next time you're here, I'll give you the Lear test.
Anyway, listen, thanks for being here, huh?
Hey, thanks again, Art.
Take care and good night.
Thanks.
He's a totally excellent interviewer.
Anytime you talk to him.
Bob Lazar from the high desert in the middle of the night.
I'm Art Bell.
See you tomorrow night.
Bye.
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