Bob Lazar, former Area 51 physicist, details nine recovered UFOs—one tested—with gravity-defying propulsion using Element 115, dismissing Roswell as likely not extraterrestrial but hinting at U.S. gravity weapons. He warns of government secrecy risks, citing harassment after his revelations, while critiquing NASA’s outdated lunar plans and questioning why advanced tech stays Earth-bound. Callers introduce fringe claims like "starlight" plastics and moon anomalies, but Lazar sticks to verified observations, rejecting impractical hydrogen car theories. His cautious approach underscores the tension between classified knowledge and public skepticism in the UFO-energy debate. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I to you all.
Good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world's time zones, because we cover all of them with this strange, unusual program.
This Expected Adventure in the Night called Coast Coast AM.
It's uh an honor to be here.
It's an honor to certainly be interviewing the man I'm about to interview, Amarillo Slim.
You may not have known that he was on the way tonight, but indeed he is.
I'll tell you all about him in a moment, and then in the second hour, of course, Bob Lazar.
And so this should be quite a night, all in all, folks.
I want to note for you very quickly, I've had about 10,000 emails.
Richard C. Hoagland's website is just temporarily down.
As is he with the flu.
Richard C. Hoagland has the flu.
Look out.
Out there, I'm hearing stories that this year shot may not do the job and.
So I don't know.
Being in isolation may be a good thing.
Anyway, his website will be up shortly.
Understand we may take a moonshot with the shuttle.
The book is Amarillo Swim in a World Full of Fat People.
The memoirs of the greatest gambler who ever lived.
That's who you're about to hear from.
Thomas Austin Amarillo Slim Preston, 74 years of age, is a fast-talking, colorful Texas gambler and poker ambassador who won the World Series of Poker in 1972, never without his snakeskin wrapped Stetson and custom-designed cowboy boots.
He lives in Amarillo, Texas, is 6'4 and weighs 170.
He is skinny.
He's so skinny.
He looks like an advanced man for a famine.
Despite his string bean build, Amarillo Slim is larger than life and considered around the world to be the greatest gambler of all time.
The greatest gambler of all time.
What kind of things has he done to give you a little taste?
He played Minnesota Fats in one pocket with a broom.
In one pocket.
Play in one pocket with a broom.
He took 21.5 points on the Jets and won a six-figure bet on Broadway Joe and Super Bowl.
That couldn't be three.
Oh, maybe it was.
He made a cat pick up a Coke bottle.
This is what I got to hear about.
Made a cat pick up a Coke bottle.
He bet on which sugar cube a fly might land on in an Arkansas jail.
Whatever he was there for.
He won the World Series of Poker, no small matter, at Binion's Horseshoe in 72.
He beat evil Knievel in golf with a carpenter's hammer, betting two out of 30 cab drivers in Dallas would have the same birthday.
Beat Bobby Riggs playing ping-pong with a skillet.
Beat Willie Nelson out of $300,000 playing dominoes in Vegas.
Played Bob Stupak, my neighbor over the hill there, pinching coins for $65,000 at the Rio in Las Vegas.
Played Larry Flint, heads-up poker, at the Phipps Club in Los Angeles, betting a prominent politician.
Betting a prominent politician?
Yeah, that George W. Bush would win the 2000 presidential election and a whole lot more.
In fact, they've got 21 listed here of the crazy bets and crazy things the man you're about to hear from has done.
By the way, folks, if you go to my website and just click on Arts Webcam, I'm holding a copy of Emerald Summer's book, picture of him right up front.
And so there's a lot of really cool stories in this book.
Let's talk about a few of them.
I mean, you played Minnesota Fats in one pocket?
With a broom?
unidentified
Well, yeah, in my youth, I was a professional bigger player.
Uncle Sam sent me all over the world giving pocket bidders exhibitions when I was only 17.
And when I came back from Europe, I ran the Pats at Perth Amboy, New Jersey.
And we played, and he beat me out of, well, he beat me out of a good-sized figure, but a little later on, he found out he should have won about five times that.
So Fetch got him a couple of sponsors together, and they come down to play me some.
And I matched a proposition game with him, a game that I had practiced for a long, long time.
And there was a handicap involved, but Fetch was a good player, but what he smelled cooking wasn't on the fire.
Oh, man, we bet enough $100 bills to burn up 30 wet mules.
Everybody in the joint bet me.
But see, you take an empty Coca-Cola bottle and snap the cap back on it, just hit it with your hand.
There's a very, very slight minute indentation where you open it.
It raises the edge on that cap.
You grab a cap by his tail.
Now, I had some welders stashed in that place.
And you grab him by one hand by the tail, and he'll turn over and scratch you.
You put both of your hands on his tail right at the base of his tail and keep him off of it.
Well, at every entry to any restaurant or lounge or bar or business or anything, there's generally a tile surface, especially right in front of the cash register.
So I lay this Coke bottle down and I drag this cat.
When you drag him, he grasps at everything.
He just lets his claws out and he's trying to get hold of anything.
and you knew you knew this because you've done this whole bunch of times obviously you weren't just I knew that cat is going to pick up that bottle.
unidentified
So when I pick him up by his tail, as long as I'll hold on to his tail, he'll hold on to that bottle.
We went out, we opened the elevator, and everybody got in that could, and the rest of them climbed the stairs.
Took it to the top of the parking lot up there, and when I turned loose of the Coke bottle, he turned loose of the, I mean, when I turned loose of his tail, he turned loose of the bottle, and there it was.
So I felt it was good for him because they should have known he was a smart cat, but they'd have looked at the width between his eyes.
So there's a lot more than uh Tibetan gambling, especially this kind of gambling, than than just betting.
I mean, there's really, there's one element of showmanship, there's one element of, well...
unidentified
Oh, there's a little bit of deceit, a little bit of...
Well, yeah, because, see, some of the things, the only one I ever did that was just an out-and-out, I'd call damn near a swindle, was about that eating a quail a day for 30 days.
Yeah, what was that all about?
Well, all my life I've heard that you couldn't eat a, no one could eat a quail a day for 30 days.
So a friend of ours bought the Holiday Inn Casino in Reno, and a bunch of the bosses, and then some of us peons, too, we went to Reno to welcome him to Nevada.
And he said, Femme, get us something unusual for dinner.
So I sent back home and got some turkey fries.
None of these guys are there eating turkey fries.
So one night then I got some cat fries.
And I sent to Louisiana and got some Prabhupada.
You know, a bunch of old spoiled millionaires sitting around there.
And finally, he said, don't you have some quail?
And I said, yeah.
So I got some mess of quail.
So he volunteered it.
It all come up on the natural.
And when it comes up natural, it's always a certainty to become a reality.
I've been watching some of these World Series of poker tournaments, and I want to talk to you about that.
That's insane.
unidentified
Well, we get a stack of $100 bills out there that a showdog couldn't jump over.
You know, when I left the World Series last year and went to the host opening of a new casino in Colorado, I put $8,320,100 bills on the end of that poker table.
So anyway, that night we went up, we had adjoining suites, and about 2 o'clock in the morning, Benny come in.
He said, Slim, you're awake?
I said, hell no, go on back and go to bed.
Let's get some sleep.
He said, I got a chore for you.
That's what I said.
He said, you've got to find a way where a man can eat a quail a day for 30 days.
I said, well, Benny, you can't do it.
I said, I know a lot of people have tried.
He said, I've heard that all my life.
But he said, now, you will find some way for a man to eat a quail a day.
I said, I don't know.
He said, well, I'm designating you a job to find a way to do it.
So about four or five months later, by sheer accident, I was in Roswell, New Mexico, trying out a new cutting horse.
I had him in a round pin there, and I told the cowboy that brought the horse over there.
I said, open that gate there for me.
Let me show him a little bit of country.
He said, well, Flem, just go down.
When you get out the gate, turn the right there into that pasture and said, you're going into about a three-section pasture.
I said, I'll see you later.
So I loped down at the end of that lane and started to step off of the horse to get open the gate.
And this guy said, oh, Mr. Flem, let me get that gate for you.
So this guy opens the gate.
We're going to go out in that big pasture.
And I said, how in the hell did you beat me down here?
He said, what are you talking about?
I said, well, you just let me out of that round pin down there about a quarter of a mile.
Or he says, that's my twin brother, identical twin.
I said, Lordy, Lordy, Lordy, look here.
The light really come on.
Well, apparently you can eat a quail every other day.
Oh, no, I'd let one that need it for about three days and then go to a dark movie or something, and then come out, and you'd eat them for three or four days.
When this guy, after about the 12th day, and this guy looks like he's doing all right with it, well, these folks had wagered they couldn't swallow boiled oak.
It looked like the wheel had already run off.
And I enjoyed that one because it was a little, well, I guess you could say it was unethical.
Well, now, see, right there is something interesting.
You've never officially been in jail.
unidentified
That's right.
I've got a call from a little old town over in Arkansas from the sheriff, and he said he had a, well, he's a big drug lord, in his jail, and he had an awful lot of money on the positive, and he wanted me to come over and see if I couldn't find some way to beat him.
So we agreed to cut it like a watermelon.
You know how you cut a watermelon, don't you?
I do, right down the middle.
So I went over there, and they determined that if I smoked in the hall there at the courthouse and couldn't pay my fine, that they put you in jail for a couple of hours.
So I lit me a cigarette and I was unable to pay my fine, so it looked like it was on the square.
And they put me in there with this fella, and we were sitting on the edge of a little old, I guess you'd call it a bunk, because there's one below and one above.
There was a little bench in the front of us, and this guy s knew who I was, or he'd heard some stories about me, and he said, My God, I bet you could get us some coffee I said, Well, probably what what do you want?
He said, man, I'm a coffee hound.
I know you are, let's have some coffee.
I said, okay.
We hollered for what they call the jailer.
That's the guy with the keys, I guess.
He came back there and I told him we wanted some coffee.
And this guy said, man, I use cream and sugar bowl.
So I said, well, can you get us some cream and sugar?
And the guy said, yeah.
So he brought us some, but the sugar he brought us was lump sugar cubes.
You've probably seen them.
They look just like a paradise.
They're just a little, well, that's what they look like.
They do.
So it wasn't real sanitary in there anyway.
And there was some flies buzzing around.
So I thought, well, looky here.
I've already got me a way to break this gap.
So I put five of these sugar cubes on this little bench right in the front of us, about, you know, two foot in front of us.
Man, Amarillo To play I understand these are good poker players, but my God, people land down sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars on, you know, like no hand.
It's just you would have to have, I don't know, great big giant brass ones to play in a tournament like that.
Those people are crazy.
unidentified
Well, let me tell you, years ago, I was a guinea pig for a thing that they wanted to do.
And originally I turned it down, and then a friend of mine got me to go ahead and do it.
They put some monitors on me like they strapped on those astronauts.
Oh, and see, y'all are going back several years ago when that lady got hold of about, oh, she got a hold of $700,000 or $800,000, about $800,000 in less than two hours in one of our big tournaments.
So I was doing an interview with UPI in there in the sombrero room during a break, and naturally she stuck her goat-smelling fanny right in the middle of it and said, well, looks like, Flynn, I'm going to find to be the first woman that wins the World Series of poker.
Now, I did not say if a woman wins it.
I said, Vera, well, I said, Miss, if you win it, you can take a dull knife and cut my throat.
Well, by the time guys like you got hold of it, I was quoted as saying, if a woman ever won it, they'd cut my throat.
So every year during the World Series of Poker, some lady will get hold of a few hundred thousand or hell.
well anyway on their opinion listen what do you think of um...
I mean, there's online gambling.
There's casino resorts.
We've got Indian reservations now.
Is Las Vegas and I guess Atlantic City going to get hurt by all this?
unidentified
No, it just creates more players.
See, I'm fairly close to that gaming industry out there in Nevada.
And I remember when Atlantic City first opened, everybody thought that it'd take off maybe 20 as much as 22 or 35 percent of Nevada's business.
All it did was increase it.
Yep.
Because it creates new players.
And now those blanket-ass Indians have opened up a casino.
Everybody that's got a Eubangum tribe has got a gambling license.
And I don't think the poor old Indians are winding up with them, but there must be, I hosted the opening of 14 different Indian casinos the last two years, so they're everywhere.
And I really and truly think they'll break the whole world.
Do you think Las Vegas, of course, you know, Las Vegas used to be an adult playground.
Now it's like Disney Vegas.
I mean, it's changed.
I mean, they used to throw around the drinks and the cigarettes.
it was just a different complex and You think so?
unidentified
Yeah, when the mob ran everything back there, you're safe walking down the street and you wasn't going to get hijacked in your room and just ordinary folks had had maybe 20 or 30,000.
They got their room comped and food and beverage and everything.
And now everybody's there's no camaraderie.
You're not an individual.
You're a dollar mark walking around.
Hell, I'm involved in, I know some places out there where with a $100,000 card, you can't even get a room during Chinese New Year or the Super Bowl or New Year.
It's the weekend, everybody, and you're off and going to, I have a guest for you, Bob Lazar.
He is a man who is probably one of the more controversial people in the entire field of ufology.
I mean, really controversial.
Bob Lazar is president of United Nuclear.
They specialize in research and development of cutting-edge technologies, design and manufacture of radiation detection equipment for the nuclear weapons industry, and the retail of scientific equipment and supplies.
He was formerly senior staff physicist for the U.S. Department of Naval Intelligence at the Nevada test site, you know that area near me, and the nuclear physicist at Los Alamos National Labs, where he was involved in advanced nuclear weapon design and development.
And in the middle of all that, he's seen things that very few living Americans have ever seen.
And second of all, yeah, I'm glad I was involved in the project for a short time.
But, you know, once you leave that and try and enter normal life, especially if you're peddling your services in research and development, the scientific field, it becomes really tough for people to take you seriously when you're known as the UFO guy.
So it's just hard to kind of divorce all that stuff.
How do you now remember that special year with John, or maybe it was more than a year, but the period of time you spent with John and you went through all of that.
How do you now remember that?
Do you remember it fondly?
Do you remember it as something you wish you hadn't done or what?
Well, that's kind of a loaded question because there was a lot of stuff going on at that time.
And, you know, I kind of make a long story short, at the time they were just calling me out, usually at night, on specific days to go out there when I initially started working down at the test site.
And, you know, this was causing problems with my wife at the time because I was keeping everything confidential, even from her.
And, you know, here 11 or 12 o'clock at night, I get this call and I disappear.
And as this goes on for quite a while, suspicions begin to build up.
And I kind of kept my friends at arm's length at that time because I just didn't want any problems.
I wanted all the newfound security to go smoothly.
Sure.
And I was pretty much playing with the game.
So it started causing suspicion in my friends and immediate family and that sort of thing.
So I decided to take the risk one night and just bring everybody out close enough to where they could see a test flight when I knew a test flight was going on.
I mean, John hauled out his, even though we got much closer in than you can today near the area.
Well, I have no idea what it's like today, but at least when I was last in Las Vegas a few years ago, you really couldn't get very far out on the road.
But we drove in close to 10 miles, and you can't do that anymore.
But John hauled out his Celestron 10-inch telescope, and from there it was quite a view.
Instead of an action-reaction system, I guess the analogy I always use is if you go put a bowling ball in the middle of your bed and three feet away from it, push your fist into the bed and push down really hard, the bowling ball rolls towards it.
And what happens in these craft, or in this particular one anyway, there were three gravity amplifiers in them.
And what these are are long tubes that are in the belly of the craft.
And they're on kind of a universal pivot type joint to make it simple.
It's actually something more complicated than that, but what they can do is swing two of the emitters up at one time, focus on a point in front of the crass, and cause a local distortion.
And essentially, the craft moves forward towards it just like the bowling ball would.
And the Omicron configuration is when the craft uses one of the emitters to essentially hover on and causes that local distortion with the other two in front of it, causing it to move forward.
The delta configuration, in fact, let me take a step back for a second.
That's how the craft has flown in an area of gravity.
Now, when you want to leave a local area of gravity, say you fly into space, what is done is you transition from Omicron to Delta.
And in a lot of the UFO pictures you see occasionally, you'll see these UFOs at these ridiculous angles, at 45-degree angles hanging in the middle of the air.
And the reason for that is that's the transition between the two different flight modes.
As the craft lifts off the ground, it has to fly in a gravity-free environment in space with the belly forward.
It doesn't fly like a flying saucer does in a science fiction movie.
The emitters focus on one point, all three of them out in space, and that's how the thing travels.
So you're kind of going from a conventional mode of flight, lifting up in the air, raising the belly, and then aiming that towards your target, and that's how you progress.
Bob, knowing what you know about at least the propulsion system, what can you imagine that might go wrong and cause a craft to crash as it allegedly did, for example, at Roswell?
Well, yes, that's why I say if some defect occurred inside, or if something was done unintentionally as far as piloting the craft, that I could see happening.
But I don't buy the story somebody comes cruising in from 30 light years away, runs into a thunderstorm, and crashes into the ground.
Well, there's a lot of information that leads me to believe that, but, you know, I'm one of the most skeptical people when it comes to flying saucer stories.
And I know that almost sounds hypocritical, but that's just the way it is.
Becoming involved with one aspect of it kind of cemented that in my mind.
But, you know, boy, there's lots of wacko stories out there, and I'm sure you've heard your share of them, maybe more than anybody.
But, you know, if this propulsion system, I mean, it could mean so much for the world.
If we knew how to manipulate gravity in that way, that obviously would be a power source that could be harnessed and utilized in a world where we're running out of coal and oil and all the conventional stuff we've used.
We really badly need another energy source.
I mean, when you saw these saucers, it was how many years ago now?
You know, a tremendous weapon potential, maybe more so than energy, because as far as duplicating the power system, well, you need access to materials, elements, things of that sort that we simply don't have and cannot fabricate.
It is, and my guest, of course, is Bob Lazar, the very controversial Bob Lazar is a physicist, and he's actually been where few living human beings have ever been.
And that's standing right in front of the real McCoy.
UFOs, flying saucers, flying discs.
Some describe, one described, I recall, as the sports model.
But the real thing.
In fact, I believe what Bob saw resulted in the tester model.
Do you remember the tester model?
Of the saucer?
Well, that came from, at least in part, if not in totality, Bob's description.
Well, that's what they're using a technology there essentially to focus something that's conventional.
But if you could maintain the energy density, maintain essentially a tight focus spot of any high-intensity energy, you could burn, penetrate, destroy different targets.
But also, it's also a great defensive thing because once you start talking about manipulating gravity and you can create a gravitational field in any plane you wish, you know, things that become possible are what we consider science fiction.
Now, the popular shields in Star Trek become possible now.
Certainly, that would have been one of the early conclusions any military mind would have drawn, and that could have easily made it to the top to the president.
Ronald Reagan was somebody who said what was on his mind to the consternation of many around him.
You know, he'd just say what was on his mind to hell with the consequences.
No, I think these are way too valuable to use in combat.
These aren't things that have been produced.
You know, we have, if we have any, we're using the parts from the craft and their prototypes, and I don't think anybody is risking putting these valuable things into battle.
I think it's, you know, unless we've developed another source for the materials or have been able to duplicate them, you know, in the past 10 years, I really don't see that we're going to be going anywhere with that.
But who knows?
Maybe by this time, research has continued and they've actually come up with something.
One of the key things that John Lear did during our last interview was he said, hey, Art, I'm going to take you to a briefing, and you're going to get to say whether you think all of this,
there should be total disclosure about everything the United States government has done since day one regarding this whole issue of extraterrestrials, what we've learned, what information we have, how we got it, what we've done with it, the terrible things government has done to protect the secrets and all the rest of it.
I'm going to lay it all out for you, and you decide whether or not it should be all publicly disclosed.
You know, everybody in ufology is screaming for disclosure.
And so I'm wondering about you, Bob.
If you had a litany of things laid in front of you that we had done, some of them pretty terrible, if you buy it, would you say that there should be full disclosure, or is this something better kept from the American or the world public?
We do have an awful lot of people in the world that just hate us because we're alive.
And if you're concerned about weapons and the proliferation of things of that sort, you do need to keep certain things secret from the rest of the world.
However, it's one of the things that I had said initially, go ahead and keep all that stuff secret, but just admit, hey, by the way, you know, a long time ago, we ran into some of these things.
This technology is real.
There apparently is actual intelligent extraterrestrial life somewhere else.
And, you know, we have a few artifacts.
And, you know, go ahead and release some stuff to the public.
Say, look, here, you know, here's a hinge made on another world.
Just something generic.
And, you know, keep all the other stuff secret.
But then I can also see the flip side of that.
That's going to whet everybody's appetite and there's going to be a furor over disclosing the rest of the information.
And if the government's been keeping that for secret for so long, what else have they been keeping secret?
But I don't see the government coming clean with any of this stuff.
But surely there is some method for keeping this gigantic secret, and not all politicians, nor even perhaps all presidents, are told about the existence of that.
And one of the things they told me, which was one of my first comments there when I finally knew what I was working on, how do you guys keep this secret?
And what they told me was, this is the easiest thing in the world to keep secret because it's so unbelievable.
And, you know, when you really think about it, they're right.
You know, as I fight to try and just put this behind me and forget about everything, you know, a lot of people keep prodding me for information and it resurfaces in my mind.
But for the most part, I just try and get rid of this.
At the time, sure, I was pissed off, more so than you can possibly imagine.
And, you know, as my friends at that time recall, I drove around in my little 280Z with an Uzi.
You know, that's the kind of trouble I expected, and I didn't go anywhere without it.
But, you know, times have changed.
A lot of time has gone by.
And I don't know.
It's kind of hard to say.
Yeah, it's always in the back of my mind.
But, you know, what am I going to do?
To this day, I'm still fighting to get some paperwork and some things I can't even talk about, but back to the way it was so I can be a normal person.
Yeah, it was just a backlit shadow, so you couldn't recognize who I was, and the pseudonym I used was the name of my boss at the time, which was kind of a little smack in the face to say, Hey, just back off and leave me alone.
and apparently that caused quite a stir and I got a call shortly after that and needless to say they were pretty upset with that move Do you think John, well I bet they were do you think John wanted you to do it to in essence back him up at that point?
Oh I'm sure at that time I mean you have to look at things at that time first of all I got into the project thinking I was going to be working on a new fighter a propulsion system for a new fighter aircraft and I was certainly not one of the people that believed in UFOs these were people that were just you know something to laugh at as far as I was concerned so I already lost my train of thought Well let me put you back in that chair.
Well, that was essentially just admitting that there were nine craft out there, that they were actively back engineering and attempting to duplicate the power and propulsion system of the craft.
And that's basically about all that was said.
I mean, there were a few details about where it was.
Yeah, I mean, at that time, you know, John Allier was out there himself saying that there were flying saucers at the test site and, you know, all kinds of stuff that I thought was pretty silly.
But as it turned out, you know, he was right.
I don't know what information source he had at that time, but...
Yeah, John Andrews from Testers just sat down and said, hey, we want to make a model of this, and you want to help us or not?
And I said, yeah, okay, this is it.
And they brought a couple guys in, and, you know, off the top of my head, I tried to remember some dimensions, and we did some initial drawings, and the craft just didn't look right.
And he had a couple friends that were, I don't quite remember what they were skilled in, but in any case, they were able to get the correct dimensions by me recognizing the sizes of known objects at various distances.
And they kind of, you know, back-engineered it from that and were able to get the proper dimensions.
And when the drawing was done, that did look correct.
And I think I'm more comfortable with the final drawings and dimensions they came up with.
And it was, I think, came up to 52.8 feet in diameter or something like that.
How long a process was that for you to accurately finally, you know, I guess it's like going to a police station and going to a sketch artist and have them finally come up with something that matches the person you saw.
It probably took a month on and off of going over drawings, drawing the layout over and over again and having these guys look at it and then scale it up and see if things fit.
And, you know, you don't invest all kinds of money just for the hell of it.
But it's amazing the amount of rumors that start.
And generally, for some reason, when my name's involved somewhere, all kinds of ridiculous stories pop out of the woodwork.
But I think even Channel 8 carried that story in Las Vegas there.
And in fact, when I was down at the silo, we got a call from the police in Roswell.
And they sounded kind of embarrassed and said, you know, we're going to have to come down and check out the facility there.
And we asked why, and there was kind of a hesitation.
And they said, I know this sounds crazy, but, you know, we have people that actually have come down to the station and said that they believe you're holding alien hostages underground in silo.
Yeah, every day.
And, you know, because they filed the report, they actually went down.
They are obligated to go check things out.
So they had to come down and verify that there's no aliens being held hostage in there.
Well, that was most recently, before I moved to New Mexico.
What had happened was just a random guy drove out there and was planning on committing suicide.
Now, of all the places in the world, this guy could have gone to kill himself.
He drove down the road to the silo, parked on top of it, and set his car on fire or something like that.
Anyway, the thing burnt to the ground and the guy was dead.
And prior to that, there's also wild animals, antelope, cattle, whatever in the area.
And there's been a couple dead cows out there.
So the connection between cattle mutilations and all this stuff started brewing in the minds of some people.
So somehow it got around that I was developing a death ray in this underground facility and that I had tested it on cattle, which is why they were dead.
And of course, a guy came driving down the road and I vaporized his car and killed him.
Bob, over the years, especially in that time period when you were with John and the whole thing was coming down, how much, and you've done a number of public interviews, several with me, how much is left that you can't talk about?
There's just a couple little tidbits, and I think I've told you that before.
There's a couple things that I need, and this isn't to burn anybody and hold information back, but it's in case somebody claims that they were involved with the project or work there.
There are a couple things that only those people will know.
And anytime that anybody brings those up when questioned by me, I'll know.
So that's the only reason.
There's just a few little bits and pieces of information here and there.
Well, Barry, the guy that I worked with there, was supposed to additionally come forward, but that apparently never happened, so I was left out there in the dark.
But if somebody were to come forward and claim they had seen what you saw, they also know it to be true because they worked there, you would have a couple of questions you'd be able to ask them that would verify the authenticity.
I mean, you've been a very longtime desert rat out here in the Las Vegas area, nearby me, and, of course, the infamous area 51S4 and all the rest of it.
I was there, and certainly working at the test site was fascinating.
And a little bit of the work I did there when I initially moved to Las Vegas.
But after that, being out of the scientific field, I really went stagnant and really didn't produce or do anything that I really considered worthwhile and just needed to get out of the Las Vegas environment completely.
And New Mexico, especially around the Albuquerque area, you know, you have two of the most prominent national nuclear labs here, Los Alamos and Sandia, and the cities here are filled with PhD scientists.
And it felt good to get back into the mainstream of things.
And in the short time I was here, in the first 18 months, I just began to actually produce what I considered decent work.
I started filing for patents and, as you know, working on the hydrogen system.
Yeah, and it's, you know, I guess it's just a different mindset.
And also the immediate area that I live in, you know, moving up isolated in the mountains in the middle of a forest and, you know, on a lot of acres of land is different than living right in the middle of Las Vegas and typically in town.
So it's just a freer environment.
And I'm building my own research lab here.
And I don't know, it's a lot more fertile ground for thinking and actually doing something serious.
But it drives me crazy because the thing I would love, I could spend four hours on the phone more pissed up than you can imagine talking about this SWAT team thing.
But my hands are tied right now.
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Oh, no, maybe in the future I can say something about that.
Do you think that you're working on, without asking you specifically what you're working on, did any of, let's try it this way, did any of your experience at S-World, what you saw and what you learned technically, have application in any work that you're either doing now or contemplating?
Even the President of the United States is touting it as the way to go.
But there are others, Bob, who say, look, this is in a way all foolishness because to create hydrogen in amounts that would be good for the public to use, energy cells, fuel cells, would require manufacturing, pollution, the use of energy.
In other words, all you're really doing is finding a new storage facility in WayAid to store energy that still has to be produced, frankly, in the old-fashioned way.
In other words, no matter how it works, Bob, and it sounds like you're almost more on the negative than the positive side of this, but I mean, no matter how it works, aren't conventional fuels going to have to be used in copious amounts to produce these cylinders of hydrogen?
The actual conversion is not that difficult, not that terribly expensive.
I have not used any energy producing any of the hydrogen that I make as far as power off the grid, fossil fuels, or whatnot.
Hydrogen is easily electrolyzed by water.
If you need to prove it to yourself, take a 12-volt battery, put both wires in the water, add a pinch of salt, and you'll see bubbles coming off of one side.
Well, the big hang-up right now has been the actual storage medium.
You don't want to store hydrogen as just a compressed gas because it's dangerous, it's flammable, and on top of that, you need thousands of times more space to hold the hydrogen than you would an equivalent amount of gasoline.
So it just doesn't work.
You don't want to store it liquid because that's cryogenic, it's dangerous, it's just a big thermos bottle in your tank, and it's another big headache.
The third way is the best way, and that's a metal hydride.
And this is a granular material that absorbs hydrogen like a sponge absorbs water.
And it only releases the hydrogen when it's heated.
And when it's not being heated, I can fire incendiary bullets through the hydride tank, and it just smolders like a cigarette.
Now, there are various hydride materials, and some were actually very difficult to get a hold of because some of them, like lithium-6-deuteride, which is a hydride, actually, well, the material I use is a hydride, the only use for that material is in thermonuclear bombs.
And it's restricted, obviously restricted for sale.
And the only reason some of these hydrides are manufactured was for the weapons industry, and they're done so in such small quantities, the cost was very high.
For instance, to convert the Corvette just for the tanks of hydride, we were looking at $15,000 without the hydrogen conversion itself.
So this is you know that's that's a a pretty large price tag.
But if this whole thing were perfected and you had access to the materials and it were done in mass, I'd like to get some idea of what it would cost to convert.
You get a little less, you know, for instance, in a larger engine.
In fact, that's the reason we converted the Corvette, was a lot of these alternate fuel cars, these little Ford escorts and these little tiny motors, and it leaves everybody wondering, well, can't you power something substantial?
So we purposely did a large V8 engine, and yeah, it still lights up the tires and screams away.
There's a little loss in horsepower, but in a large engine, you're not going to detect a 10% loss in horsepower.
Okay, well, I know, but still, all right, but let me take the other side of it, Bob.
Let's fight this a little bit.
There's a lot of people out there, like Stephen Greer, who I have on tomorrow night, and they really do make a compelling, damn strong case that, gosh, darn it all, if we've been visited by aliens, if they've really been here, if we have their craft, their technology, and even bodies, and this is such an incredibly large story, so important to the human race that nobody has a right to keep anything like this secret, and it should be told.
It should be out in the open.
And if these Bob Lazars don't come in and talk to me and others, then how in the hell are we ever going to find out?
Because you said it yourself, the government sure isn't going to tell us.
Well, a lot of people, Bob, think that, I mean, when they have these reality TV shows and people line up for blocks and wait two days through the ice and the cold to get a chance to be, you know, I have FaceTime on television.
We do live in that kind of world, and so some people suspect your motive is that.
There's a lot of speculation, of course, about an agreement to allow some human beings, for example, to be abducted for research in return for, let's say, technology.
And John Lear alluded to all that and said that they, in essence, reneged on that aspect of what was supposed to be a deal.
Of course, you'd never make that kind of thing public.
If you had made a deal to shuffle off some of your citizens at random to guys who are going to do God knows what to them, chop them up, cut them up, whatever they do, you could never talk about that ever.
Well, he's convinced there are artifacts on the moon, gigantic artifacts on the moon and Mars.
And others have said that as well.
Richard C. Hoagland and others have said there are things on the moon.
In fact, you know what?
There's a speculation that the President of the United States, George Bush, is about to make a speech in which he's going to say the United States is going to go back to the moon.
There's going to be a shuttle mission to go back to the moon.
and actually i've heard mr hoagland say it's possible i mean that you know if they use every Well, sure, but if you want to actually get on the moon, it's a different story.
Well, you know, for the most part, you know, it's metal and components.
Just sit there with something you know that works.
Don't do what the United States typically does and reinvent the wheel constantly.
That got us to the moon.
Many times it worked.
Just update it with some modern materials, electronics, and components and use it since it's there and stop spending huge amounts of money doing nothing.
First of all, the space station is limited in what it can do.
And I know a moon base is much more difficult to get to.
It doesn't have to be large, but you can at least try and test out some technology on trying to manufacture fuel, do some small refining, see what you can get from the surrounding environment.
There have been reports, I think, I don't know, was it the Cassini?
Some radar mapping craft over the past four or five years detected that there were supposedly large frozen areas of water on the moon.
However, they just went over that data again and had another arbitrator now are refuting some of that.
You know, if you've got water, you've got energy and you've got the possibility for all kinds of stuff.
So that would make it uninhabitable if they're completely reversing themselves now.
It's kind of strange to me.
A lot of people believe, Bob, that there are things on the moon, large glass structures, incredible things that were hidden from the world when we went to the moon and have been hidden ever since.
And that's the reason they say we haven't gone back.
I believe John is one of the people who believes that.
You know, it's a completely different world now than it was in the 60s.
There's a lot more technology, so there's a lot more we can investigate there.
You know, and the original reason to go to the moon was never to research the moon, you know, aside from beating the Russians there.
The original intention was only to see the feasibility or to investigate the feasibility of making a small base there and launching a Mars mission from the moon.
This was all about going to Mars.
The moon was only supposed to be because it would be easier to get there from the moon, less gravity, so on and so forth.
And that was just to be looked upon as a potential launching site for a Mars mission.
So the interest was never in the moon.
I mean, we pretty much knew it was just a rock up there anyway.
The interest has always been in Mars, but Mars isn't that easy to get to.
So then, Rob, we have been unable to decipher the manner in which, or duplicate the manner in which gravity is manipulated by the devices on the craft that you saw.
Obviously, we failed, or what?
In other words, otherwise we'd be using this technology, so we failed?
We're getting real close to one of the areas that I said that I purposely don't talk about so I know if anybody's been involved with a project which has to do with the craft and where it's gone.
I always thought that that was an odd place to put it.
Because in the early days of the nuclear weapon development, some of the best places that they kept everything were in the South Pacific, like Kwajalan Island and things of that sort.
I wouldn't have built a secret base in the middle of Nevada, you know, outside of Las Vegas.
And the only reason they moved the nuclear test site to Nevada was because it was just too expensive running supplies back and forth and all the personnel to the South Pacific.
Well, you don't have that problem with the ET program because it's limited personnel, limited supplies, and, you know, go hide it in the middle of the ocean on an island like they did with everything else.
So if I was going to put it somewhere, that's where it would be.
He said, Art, imagine you're going to this briefing, and I'm going to lay the briefing out for you, showing you slides and putting things on the blackboard.
And I'm going to explain to you everything the United States and world governments have ever done regarding the whole ET issue.
And you tell me at the end of it if you would say, okay, make it all public.
Because some of the things that John said are so far beyond the pale that the religious implications, the social implications, the fact that I do believe people would go berserk.
I mean, completely berserk.
It would take down our government.
It would disturb the world.
it would disturb the force it would be Well, you've got to remember now that the test was given from the John Lear perspective.
And remember that John believes a lot of things to be true that you don't.
Maybe it makes me a hypocrite for saying so, but that's, look, I am the first one to admit that if somebody came forward to me with my identical story and laid everything in my lap, I'm not sure I'd buy it.
So I can't expect anything else from anybody else.
And in fact, I almost prefer people don't believe it because then I get hassled less about it.
I'm just relaying what happened to me at the time, and that's it.
That's the end of the story.
And where it's gone and why, you know, how all this stuff came about is beyond my scope of knowledge, and I don't profess to know anything that I haven't been exposed to.
I've got that, but I mean, as incredulous as it sounds, why not believe other incredulous things?
I mean, if there are saucers here, if there were bodies recovered, if we actually have aliens, then certainly some of the stories about aliens could easily be true.
I had some things verified to me and had hands-on experience.
I got to touch them.
I got to see them.
I got to analyze them and said, okay, this is real.
Now, for the layman or researcher or whatever that hasn't, everything is in the same category to them.
It's all conjecture.
You know, yet I've had some things proven to me, and I hold on to those like an anchor.
Okay, I know this is real, but I don't know about anything else.
I don't know if Betty and Barney Hill were abducted, but they have a compelling story.
I don't know if the Roswell crash occurred, but that's a compelling story.
Some of the stories you hear are totally illogical and don't make sense.
And to me, they fit in the category, you know, you try and maintain an open mind and remain scientific about it, but you have prejudices in either direction, you know, as most intelligent people do.
And, you know, I don't believe everybody that says they were abducted was abducted.
I'm calling about the gravitational amplifier system.
I'm interested in this because I'm a physics student, and I was thinking that kind of at the forefront of physics research now is kind of a push to detect gravitational waves, which is a tough thing to do, and probably ultimately discover the gravitational particle, the graviton.
And I was thinking about this three-pole system that you described as very directional.
And maybe a gravitational current is involved.
I was wondering if that maybe hints at why we can't figure out what is going on there.
Well, this is more of the research I wanted to conduct while there.
Well, I wanted to get down to the hardcore research in gravity and how the energy propagates by itself.
And by the way, I don't believe there are gravitons.
I don't believe there's particles involved.
I don't believe it's even a wave-particle duality, you know, like light photons are.
You know, I think this is...
And exactly how it propagates is, at least I don't personally understand that.
It almost seemed to propagate as microwaves did, since anytime inside the craft, the basic gravity wave was rooted anywhere from the reactor to the amplifiers, it always traveled inside tuned pipes.
So again, that implies at a specific frequency you should have some sort of gravitational effect if it's just a basic carrier wave of some sort, but that doesn't appear to be true.
That's what connected the reactor to the skin of the craft and ultimately to the Right, but if it's just a basic wave, you know, you could just set up a high-frequency oscillator and then as you slowly increase the frequency, you get different effects.
You get microwaves, you get, and it's all part of the electromagnetic spectrum, and you get X-rays and whatever, and you should just run into gravity at some point, but you don't.
So there's something else there, but they were so concerned about the actual application of it, they weren't really concerned about the research into the basics of it, which probably if it would have been done that way when I was there, at least I think it would have given us a clue, at least a better clue, of how to use it and how to duplicate it.
Because from all indications, the propagation is instantaneous.
And I know that it upsets everything.
But remember, gravity in itself distorts time and space.
And every way we attempted to measure the propagation from the reactor base to the emitters themselves, there was no delay at all.
And so I believe that I don't know if the wave is actually propagating instantly or the fact that it's a gravitational wave is distorting the time space around it and making it appear as it's an instantaneous propagation, but those are the results that we got.
It's still a flat 20 minutes between our little robot orbiters and things of that sort.
You know, here you have the potential if, in fact, there is instantaneous propagation of gravitational waves, here's a fantastic communication device where there's no delay, where you can talk in real time at great distances.
So obviously there's just tremendous implications of this technology.
Well, yeah, there's something unique about that element.
just like there's something unique about the nuclear elements we use in reactors.
But something apparently happens different there that doesn't So there is something very unique about the fuel and specifically what it is, you know, on an atomic scale.
Bob, I heard some rumors about some kind of speculating about or perhaps lab work going on, something surrounding element 115.
Between when you told your story and now, sometime or another, I remember hearing about some legit science dabbling with the concept of 115 or something.
I mean, we certainly observed some unique properties of it.
It's incredibly heavy and incredibly dense.
Aside from that, the way the reactor worked in the craft was like a small accelerator, and it constantly bombarded the 115, which transmuted and immediately decayed, and that's when it produced its gravitational pulses.
And as a byproduct, it produced a tremendous amount of heat.
I mean, the 115 itself was bombarded, released, in some way, shape, or form, releases a pulse of a gravitational wave, and kind of as a byproduct, releases a tremendous amount of heat, and that heat is converted to electricity, which runs the craft.
However, there's no wiring or any conventional connectors or controls or anything of that sort on the craft.
But it's all incredibly fascinating, and to a scientist, it's a dream come true.
So yeah, sure, in some respects, I regret the way things turned out.
But I don't know, maybe eventually we'll all find out what's going on.
I really wonder, as the world grows short of oil and the wars are raging because of it, and we prepare to go back to the moon, maybe in the shuttle of all things.
I don't know.
It just seems like if all of this really is there, and yet I guess the answer is that you suggest we have, as of, well, the date you knew anyway, not been successful in the back engineering attempt, so we don't have it down yet, or if we do, for some reason we're not willing to begin to release it.
I mean, you'd think they could do it through industry, you know, sort of sliding things slowly into industry as some development or something just to get it into the economy.
Well, you may recall if you ever heard Colonel Corso's story before he passed on, that he suggested that's exactly how a number of things made it from the Roswell crash to modern industry.
This is Alan from Colorado, and I have three questions, so I hope you can bear with me.
My first question is if Aldrich Ames of the CIA can go to jail for so many years because he revealed government secrets, how is it that Bob was able to pull this off?
T. Townsend Brown, John Searle, Victor Schauberger with his vortex technology, John Keel, Otis T. Carr, all these researchers, which this relates to the second question, and I think I know how you're going to answer it.
How do you feel about what they've so-called contributed to gravitational propulsion technology?
And, you know, just because something lifts off the ground does not make it gravity propulsion.
But gravity propulsion, I define as something that's acting directly against gravity, and I don't mean being lifted by electrostatic forces, something like that, something that's actually counteracting.
Yes, for over 20 years, I've been within the research of exobiology.
I don't want to mention any names, but my ex-father-in-law, who was with the CIA at Groom Lake before he died of Agent Orange, he asked me if there's anything I would like to know about Area 51.
And I said, yes.
Is the government cover-ups of UFOs and ETs true?
He said, yes, because he stood guard several feet away within one of the hangar bays, guarding ETs from the UFO that was being brought from one place to another.
See, he was all fed up with the government for what they were doing to him because he spent so much time in the service and all that, you know, with them that they wouldn't do any more for him.
Okay, the way he did it was doing the old high school science class project, just lay a bar magnet on a table and put the paper on it and sprinkle the iron filings on it.
In Encarta, which is the, I guess that's the, what is it, the encyclopedia that you get for your computer from Microsoft.
Really?
And at Microsoft and Carter, and you go to 1976, we're under 50.
115, and they were able to measure it and deduce that it had element 115 in it.
And also, the other reference is for 116 through about 124 at the end of the article.
It says they were measured in mica schist that was in Africa.
So in mica schist, which is, I guess, a rock formation, there's trace when they bombard it with a VandiGraaff generator at high energy, gives off a pattern of atomic, some signature that shows that those elements were there.
Over the last bunch of years, Nexus magazine has run at least a couple of articles about running one's car on hydrogen using electrolysis, in other words, generating the hydrogen on board, on demand.
And I just some people I've spoken to about it say it's a ridiculous idea that it's impossible, that it would take really more energy.
Unless you're carrying a nuclear power plant behind you.
You just can't.
Water doesn't come apart that fast.
And there are flashways.
In fact, I met a physicist from Sandia Labs here and was talking to him, and they have this neat device that kind of works on a plasma pulse and cracks water at much higher volume than electrolysis.
In fact, the guy emailed me recently that has something that does that with hydrocarbons.
But as far as driving a car and having and producing hydrogen by electrolysis from water at a volume great enough to keep the car running, it's never going to happen.
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So you are required really to generate the hydrogen at some other time, some other place, and then pipe it into the car and store it.
Our product is a small hydrogen generator, kind of like a dishwasher.
Sits in your garage, solar panels, and it takes two to three days to fill the tanks because it takes a lot of energy and it takes a long time to do it.
Now there are faster ways, but they consume more power.
Well, some don't.
But are more complicated, don't use water, so on and so forth.
Ours is low-cost, just uses, connects to the water line, uses solar panels, and slowly cranks out hydrogen.
And you can, over a period of two to three days, fill the tanks in your car, and then you can drive 700 miles.
Ideally, you'd have several sets of tanks and just fill them and whatnot.
But it's the only way to do it.
I've been playing with hydrogen fuel systems since the late 70s.