Art Bell

All Episodes

Previous Next

Dec. 6, 2003 - Art Bell

02:50:52

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - UFOs and Alternative Energy - Bob Lazar

Participants

Main voices

55:12

bob lazar

01:01:29

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I to you all.
		Good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world's time zones, because we cover all of them with this strange, unusual program.
		This Expected Adventure in the Night called Coast Coast AM.
		It's uh an honor to be here.
		It's an honor to certainly be interviewing the man I'm about to interview, Amarillo Slim.
		You may not have known that he was on the way tonight, but indeed he is.
		I'll tell you all about him in a moment, and then in the second hour, of course, Bob Lazar.
		And so this should be quite a night, all in all, folks.
		I want to note for you very quickly, I've had about 10,000 emails.
		Richard C. Hoagland's website is just temporarily down.
		As is he with the flu.
		Richard C. Hoagland has the flu.
		Look out.
		Out there, I'm hearing stories that this year shot may not do the job and.
		So I don't know.
		Being in isolation may be a good thing.
		Anyway, his website will be up shortly.
		Understand we may take a moonshot with the shuttle.
		That's something we'll talk with Richard about.
		I spoke with him a couple of hours ago.
unidentified		Coming up in a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, what an honor.
		The book is Amarillo Swim in a World Full of Fat People.
		The memoirs of the greatest gambler who ever lived.
		That's who you're about to hear from.
		Thomas Austin Amarillo Slim Preston, 74 years of age, is a fast-talking, colorful Texas gambler and poker ambassador who won the World Series of Poker in 1972, never without his snakeskin wrapped Stetson and custom-designed cowboy boots.
		He lives in Amarillo, Texas, is 6'4 and weighs 170.
		He is skinny.
		He's so skinny.
		He looks like an advanced man for a famine.
		Despite his string bean build, Amarillo Slim is larger than life and considered around the world to be the greatest gambler of all time.
		The greatest gambler of all time.
		What kind of things has he done to give you a little taste?
		He played Minnesota Fats in one pocket with a broom.
		In one pocket.
		Play in one pocket with a broom.
		He took 21.5 points on the Jets and won a six-figure bet on Broadway Joe and Super Bowl.
		That couldn't be three.
		Oh, maybe it was.
		He made a cat pick up a Coke bottle.
		This is what I got to hear about.
		Made a cat pick up a Coke bottle.
		He bet on which sugar cube a fly might land on in an Arkansas jail.
		Whatever he was there for.
		He won the World Series of Poker, no small matter, at Binion's Horseshoe in 72.
		He beat evil Knievel in golf with a carpenter's hammer, betting two out of 30 cab drivers in Dallas would have the same birthday.
		Beat Bobby Riggs playing ping-pong with a skillet.
		Beat Willie Nelson out of $300,000 playing dominoes in Vegas.
		Played Bob Stupak, my neighbor over the hill there, pinching coins for $65,000 at the Rio in Las Vegas.
		Played Larry Flint, heads-up poker, at the Phipps Club in Los Angeles, betting a prominent politician.
		Betting a prominent politician?
		Yeah, that George W. Bush would win the 2000 presidential election and a whole lot more.
		In fact, they've got 21 listed here of the crazy bets and crazy things the man you're about to hear from has done.
		in a moment amarillo slim the Now to where else?
		Amarillo, Texas.
		And here's Amarillo Slim.
		Amarillo, welcome to the program.
unidentified		Good to be here, bud.
unidentified		What's going on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ha ha, you at the moment, my friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I spent 18 months in your fair city back in the days when you used to have an Air Force base there, Amarillo Air Force Base.
unidentified		Well, yeah, but when Lyndon Johnson failed to kill Potter County, our Air Force Base got phased out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I recall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think last time I was there, the only thing left were a few red and white towers out there where the Air Force Base used to be.
unidentified		That's about it.
		That's about it.
		But Amarillo's a good town.
		Hell, I've lived here nearly all my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I met a pair of really good-looking twins in Amarillo, so I remember that place for a long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
unidentified		You should, because our population has been the same the last 30 years, never varies.
		Every time some woman gets pregnant, some man leaves town.
		So Amarilla has been the same forever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why are you a gambler?
unidentified		Well, I don't know.
		I don't know.
		Why?
		It just seemed like it came pretty easy for me.
		And, you know, that's soft as butter for me.
		I enjoy it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I mean, there must be something in your psychological makeup.
		You must thought about it from time to time.
		Why do I do this?
		Why am I a gambler?
unidentified		Sometimes it's a good thing.
		Sometimes, and today it's a bad thing.
		My gosh, look what Southern Cal did.
		That last field goal, you'd like to go spend what it cost me.
		I had taken 22 points on that game.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you haven't let up at all, have you?
unidentified		No, that's for women and children.
unidentified		Nobody gives up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would love to hear.
		Your book is out.
		How is your book being greeted?
		By the way, folks, if you go to my website and just click on Arts Webcam, I'm holding a copy of Emerald Summer's book, picture of him right up front.
		And so there's a lot of really cool stories in this book.
		Let's talk about a few of them.
		I mean, you played Minnesota Fats in one pocket?
		With a broom?
unidentified		Well, yeah, in my youth, I was a professional bigger player.
		Uncle Sam sent me all over the world giving pocket bidders exhibitions when I was only 17.
		And when I came back from Europe, I ran the Pats at Perth Amboy, New Jersey.
		And we played, and he beat me out of, well, he beat me out of a good-sized figure, but a little later on, he found out he should have won about five times that.
		So Fetch got him a couple of sponsors together, and they come down to play me some.
		And I matched a proposition game with him, a game that I had practiced for a long, long time.
		And there was a handicap involved, but Fetch was a good player, but what he smelled cooking wasn't on the fire.
		You know what I'm saying?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A broom.
unidentified		Well, yeah, just like you sweep the floor with.
		And bless his heart, he left here scratching a broke tail.
		And I felt it was good for him.
		I liked Pets, so I was one of the few people that liked Pat.
		But we knew him as New York Pats.
		He only become Minnesota Pats after the movie come out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the movie did that to him?
unidentified		Yeah, we knew Pats.
		I'd played Pat in New York, and I'd played him in Atlanta.
		I'd played him in Hot Springs, Arkansas.
		We'd played several times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You say you were one of the only people who liked him, huh?
unidentified		Well, yeah, because he was a man.
		He was stronger than Nelly's breath.
		That son of a gun was, well, I liked Platts.
		Hell, he was okay with me.
		Very few people knew his name.
		His name was Rudolph Walderon.
		And he was a showman and a good one.
		In fact, he told me one time I played him an exhibition in Reno and sculled out on him.
		I couldn't beat him at that time.
		And he says to me, say, you skinny cowboy, if you want some notoriety, go set yourself on fire.
		So I thought Pats was all right.
		That suited me just Pat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He was as good as his reputation says.
		Yes, yes.
		I'm a cat person.
		I own four cats.
		And so when I saw that, I mean, you made a cat, you bet somebody that a cat could pick up a Coke bottle.
		Now, cats can't pick up Coke bottles.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, I've done it several times in my life.
		I make the cat pick up the Coke bottle and made it take up the elevator to a parking lot and put the bottle on top of his car.
		What?
		I made the cat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I heard you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just said, I'm saying, like, how could you do that?
unidentified		Well, all trappers don't wear fur caps.
		And early, me and this man had been playing some high goth.
		And one evening, we always went to the office bar that way in a lounge there in New York.
		And when we did that, well, if anyone had a phone call, they'd say, where are you?
		Well, we was always at the office.
		You know what I'm saying?
		So now I had given a newspaper kid a $50 bill that morning and told him to catch me a cat.
		He said, what kind?
		I said, just a grown cat.
		I don't care what it is.
		If it's just a grown cat, not a baby kitten.
		So he caught me a cat, and I had stationed this gentleman on the outside of the booth where he'd be sure and see him.
		Had he been unable to see him, I would have pointed him out to him.
		But he saw this kid through this cat in the lounge where we were.
		It was the office.
		And he said, my God, what's a her, cat like that, doing in a nice place like this?
		So I leaned completely over him and saw the cat, and I said, well, that's a real smart cat, and just sat back down.
		And he grabbed me by the shoulder, and he said, well, you mean a smart cat?
		I said, you can tell by the width of the distance between his ears that he's real intelligent.
		Well, I'm a non-drinking stiff, so I was drinking a Coca-Cola, which wasn't out of land.
		And I said, well, I bet I can make that cat pick up this Coke bottle and take it up there on that parking lot and put it on top of your car.
		Oh, man, you could hear a mouse wet on cotton.
		It got just as quiet in that building.
		So naturally, they sent and got a yellow legal pad, and they wrote out stipulations as to what you could and couldn't do.
		You know what I'm saying?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the way the bet would come down.
		Sir?
		I'm taking it.
		You mean the outline of the bet, exactly how it would be?
unidentified		Well, because I couldn't, you know, I couldn't tie it to him or something.
unidentified		So none of them covered what I did, and so I was real sure that the cat would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much money was on the table over this?
unidentified		Oh, man, we bet enough $100 bills to burn up 30 wet mules.
		Everybody in the joint bet me.
		But see, you take an empty Coca-Cola bottle and snap the cap back on it, just hit it with your hand.
		There's a very, very slight minute indentation where you open it.
		It raises the edge on that cap.
		You grab a cap by his tail.
		Now, I had some welders stashed in that place.
		And you grab him by one hand by the tail, and he'll turn over and scratch you.
		You put both of your hands on his tail right at the base of his tail and keep him off of it.
		Well, at every entry to any restaurant or lounge or bar or business or anything, there's generally a tile surface, especially right in front of the cash register.
		So I lay this Coke bottle down and I drag this cat.
		When you drag him, he grasps at everything.
		He just lets his claws out and he's trying to get hold of anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They'll grab on anything.
unidentified		That's right.
		So I drag him over the bottle.
		It doesn't take long.
		And his claws will catch on that indentation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		and you knew you knew this because you've done this whole bunch of times obviously you weren't just I knew that cat is going to pick up that bottle.
unidentified		So when I pick him up by his tail, as long as I'll hold on to his tail, he'll hold on to that bottle.
		We went out, we opened the elevator, and everybody got in that could, and the rest of them climbed the stairs.
		Took it to the top of the parking lot up there, and when I turned loose of the Coke bottle, he turned loose of the, I mean, when I turned loose of his tail, he turned loose of the bottle, and there it was.
		So I felt it was good for him because they should have known he was a smart cat, but they'd have looked at the width between his eyes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they should have been looking at your eyes, probably.
unidentified		Well, that doesn't do them any good because uh I I'd I'll I'd only let them see what I wanted them to see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there's a lot more than uh Tibetan gambling, especially this kind of gambling, than than just betting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there's really, there's one element of showmanship, there's one element of, well...
unidentified		Oh, there's a little bit of deceit, a little bit of...
		Well, yeah, because, see, some of the things, the only one I ever did that was just an out-and-out, I'd call damn near a swindle, was about that eating a quail a day for 30 days.
		Yeah, what was that all about?
		Well, all my life I've heard that you couldn't eat a, no one could eat a quail a day for 30 days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
unidentified		Well, that meat's too strong.
unidentified		You get to where you can't even walk in the room where it's being prepared.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A quail a day, 30 days.
unidentified		I know an attorney in Austin that bet a big figure that he could, and he didn't do it.
unidentified		I know about 20 people that tried it, and no one ever did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And couldn't do it.
unidentified		So a friend of ours bought the Holiday Inn Casino in Reno, and a bunch of the bosses, and then some of us peons, too, we went to Reno to welcome him to Nevada.
		And he said, Femme, get us something unusual for dinner.
		So I sent back home and got some turkey fries.
		None of these guys are there eating turkey fries.
		So one night then I got some cat fries.
		And I sent to Louisiana and got some Prabhupada.
		You know, a bunch of old spoiled millionaires sitting around there.
		And finally, he said, don't you have some quail?
		And I said, yeah.
		So I got some mess of quail.
		So he volunteered it.
		It all come up on the natural.
		And when it comes up natural, it's always a certainty to become a reality.
		You know what I'm saying?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think I do.
unidentified		So Tom said, oh, these are real people I'm talking about.
		He said, Lem, do you think you could eat a quail a day for 30 days?
		I said, hell, I know I can't because I, you know, I knew that.
		He said, well, you only went a couple hundred thousand.
		I bet you can't eat a quail a day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A couple hundred thousand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		$200,000 on that.
unidentified		Well, yeah.
		See, those kind of people aren't on any budget.
		So that's not an out-of-line wager.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I know it isn't.
		I know.
		I've been watching some of these World Series of poker tournaments, and I want to talk to you about that.
		That's insane.
unidentified		Well, we get a stack of $100 bills out there that a showdog couldn't jump over.
unidentified		You know, when I left the World Series last year and went to the host opening of a new casino in Colorado, I put $8,320,100 bills on the end of that poker table.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
unidentified		We had 832 players post $10,000 apiece to play in the tournament.
		That's $8,320,000.
		Man, that's got some whiskers on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, it sure does.
unidentified		You know, my story about the quail.
		So anyway, that night we went up, we had adjoining suites, and about 2 o'clock in the morning, Benny come in.
		He said, Slim, you're awake?
		I said, hell no, go on back and go to bed.
		Let's get some sleep.
		He said, I got a chore for you.
		That's what I said.
		He said, you've got to find a way where a man can eat a quail a day for 30 days.
		I said, well, Benny, you can't do it.
		I said, I know a lot of people have tried.
		He said, I've heard that all my life.
		But he said, now, you will find some way for a man to eat a quail a day.
		I said, I don't know.
		He said, well, I'm designating you a job to find a way to do it.
		So about four or five months later, by sheer accident, I was in Roswell, New Mexico, trying out a new cutting horse.
		I had him in a round pin there, and I told the cowboy that brought the horse over there.
		I said, open that gate there for me.
		Let me show him a little bit of country.
		He said, well, Flem, just go down.
		When you get out the gate, turn the right there into that pasture and said, you're going into about a three-section pasture.
		I said, I'll see you later.
		So I loped down at the end of that lane and started to step off of the horse to get open the gate.
		And this guy said, oh, Mr. Flem, let me get that gate for you.
		So this guy opens the gate.
		We're going to go out in that big pasture.
		And I said, how in the hell did you beat me down here?
		He said, what are you talking about?
		I said, well, you just let me out of that round pin down there about a quarter of a mile.
		Or he says, that's my twin brother, identical twin.
		I said, Lordy, Lordy, Lordy, look here.
		The light really come on.
		Well, apparently you can eat a quail every other day.
		Oh, no, I'd let one that need it for about three days and then go to a dark movie or something, and then come out, and you'd eat them for three or four days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, see, that's pretty close to a swindle.
unidentified		What did I just tell you?
		You did.
		I told you, but see, that's a case of using your head instead of your near end anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's true.
unidentified		I thought it was so much fun.
		When this guy, after about the 12th day, and this guy looks like he's doing all right with it, well, these folks had wagered they couldn't swallow boiled oak.
		It looked like the wheel had already run off.
		And I enjoyed that one because it was a little, well, I guess you could say it was unethical.
		I don't know.
		I just.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Will you gamble?
		I mean, you gambled on a fly landing, right?
		While you were in jail or something.
unidentified		Well, I wasn't in jail.
unidentified		I've never been incarcerated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, never?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now, see, right there is something interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've never officially been in jail.
unidentified		That's right.
		I've got a call from a little old town over in Arkansas from the sheriff, and he said he had a, well, he's a big drug lord, in his jail, and he had an awful lot of money on the positive, and he wanted me to come over and see if I couldn't find some way to beat him.
		So we agreed to cut it like a watermelon.
		You know how you cut a watermelon, don't you?
		I do, right down the middle.
		So I went over there, and they determined that if I smoked in the hall there at the courthouse and couldn't pay my fine, that they put you in jail for a couple of hours.
		So I lit me a cigarette and I was unable to pay my fine, so it looked like it was on the square.
		And they put me in there with this fella, and we were sitting on the edge of a little old, I guess you'd call it a bunk, because there's one below and one above.
		There was a little bench in the front of us, and this guy s knew who I was, or he'd heard some stories about me, and he said, My God, I bet you could get us some coffee I said, Well, probably what what do you want?
		He said, man, I'm a coffee hound.
		I know you are, let's have some coffee.
		I said, okay.
		We hollered for what they call the jailer.
		That's the guy with the keys, I guess.
		He came back there and I told him we wanted some coffee.
		And this guy said, man, I use cream and sugar bowl.
		So I said, well, can you get us some cream and sugar?
		And the guy said, yeah.
		So he brought us some, but the sugar he brought us was lump sugar cubes.
		You've probably seen them.
		They look just like a paradise.
		They're just a little, well, that's what they look like.
		They do.
		So it wasn't real sanitary in there anyway.
		And there was some flies buzzing around.
		So I thought, well, looky here.
		I've already got me a way to break this gap.
		So I put five of these sugar cubes on this little bench right in the front of us, about, you know, two foot in front of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold that story right there, Amarilla.
		We're here at the bottom of the hour.
		He was going to bet the guy that he could cause a fly to land on a particular sugar cube.
		This is a man who bet on anything, obviously.
		And pretty much has.
		From the high desert in the middle of the night, doing what you never expect.
		Always a surprise.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast AM.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't touch that dial.
unidentified		Sweet dreams are made of the ends.
		Who am I to disagree?
		I travel the world and the seven seas.
		Bright light city gonna set my soul, gonna set my soul on fire.
		Got a whole lot of money that's ready to burn, so get those stakes up higher.
		There's a thousand pretty women waiting out there.
		They're all living, the devil may care.
		And I'm just a devil with no despair.
		So people are begging.
		People are begging.
		How I wish that there were more than 24 hours in the day.
		Even if there were 40 more, I wouldn't sleep a minute away.
		Oh, those blackjack and poker and the roulette wheel.
		A fortune won and lost on every deal.
		To talk with Art Bell.
		Cover line is Area Code 7757271295.
		The first-time cover line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from East of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From West of the Rockies, call Art at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing Option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're listening to one of the greatest gamblers, if not the greatest gambler in the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		His name is Amarillo Slim, and he'll be right back.
unidentified		Amarillo Slim All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back to Amarilla Slim.
		If I got this right, there's a guy in a jail, right?
		A whole bunch of money.
		And they're going to split that watermelon right down the middle.
		And so he gets himself tossed in jail on some smoky infraction.
		Then gets into the jail.
		He's betting with this guy, and he says up a bet, something about sugar cubes.
		So he had sugar cubes there, right?
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so what was the bet?
unidentified		What he had on deposit, but after he got told a lot of towns, a lot of people thought he had more on deposit than he did.
unidentified		He had $37,000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		$37,000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But actually, what was the bet?
unidentified		$37,000 and whatever odd teams he had.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's the money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I meant, what were you betting on?
unidentified		Well, I put five of those sugar cubes out there on this bench.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Flies.
unidentified		And he said, what do you mean?
		I said, well, you see those flies?
		I said, I'll bet I can tell you which one those sugar cubes the fly lands on.
		He said, well, you've got it.
		I said, well, not even money.
		There's five of them.
		Even money would be four to one, but I'll take seven to two.
		I knew he had thud.
		You know, he wanted the best at it, which is three and a half to one.
		So he didn't disappoint me.
		He said, nope, no, no, I'm not going to lay three and a half to one.
		I'll lay you three to one.
		I said, well, have you got anything?
		Of course, I already knew you had.
		So he said, yeah, I'll lay it for what I've got on deposit.
		I said, well, you haven't got glass pockets.
		Let me see a receipt.
		Well, I tell what you got on deposit, of course, I already knew.
		So I designated the cube it would land on, and we wagered.
		But you see, sugar, just in its normal form, one of those sugar cubes is just like a teddy bear.
		I'm looking at one on the TV or a picture or something.
		It's nothing to a fly.
		But if you'll moisten your finger and wet that sugar cube, it'll dissolve a little bit of it.
		It gives off an aroma.
		And when it gives off an aroma, Mr. Fly, he doesn't even see those other four.
		They're just like that bench.
		He just die-bogs that cube.
		My God.
		You could have played generally on this man's shirt, Taylor.
		He'd have sticking my foot out when you feed up that much.
		But I knew which one that fly was going to land on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it did.
unidentified		Well, it always will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's something to remember.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you just put a little water there on the little spit on the end of that thing.
unidentified		That's exactly.
unidentified		Well, you know, it dissolves it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
unidentified		Well, when it evaporates, naturally, it gives off a sweet aroma.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Amarilla, what's your wife's opinion on your lifestyle, the way you live?
unidentified		Well, I guess she thinks I'm a pretty clever little fella because in my youth I used to make some trips and they weren't all positive.
		But it was very seldom ever asked me if it was.
		How did you do?
		Even if I had a bad trip, I'd say, oh, I beat these folks.
		So there wasn't any need of me being a burden or a hardship on my family over my gaming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, I've been watching these poker tournaments.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Man, Amarillo To play I understand these are good poker players, but my God, people land down sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars on, you know, like no hand.
		It's just you would have to have, I don't know, great big giant brass ones to play in a tournament like that.
		Those people are crazy.
unidentified		Well, let me tell you, years ago, I was a guinea pig for a thing that they wanted to do.
		And originally I turned it down, and then a friend of mine got me to go ahead and do it.
		They put some monitors on me like they strapped on those astronauts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		And they wanted to show why under duress I didn't show any emotion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		There's the way it was kind of worded to me.
		And, hell, I could look you right in the eye.
		And, you know, it's just like that guy that stands there and he swears to you it's raining outside, but all the time he's wetting on your leg.
		So I don't know, but it takes a different breed of cats.
		See, everybody can move their chips up and down.
		You watch these tournament games, which you're doing, and so is everybody else in the country.
		All these guys shuffle their chips straight up and down.
		Well, everybody can do that, but it takes a different breed of cat that can move them chips out there in the center without a hand.
		Now, anyone can if they've got the nuts or a cinch hand or a good hand.
		But I respect a guy that can bet all of that without having a thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am.
unidentified		Well, I tell you, it's a pretty tough go.
		Everybody asked me about they wanted to become a professional poker player or something.
		And my suggestion has always been they get them a driver's license and go to driving a dump truck.
		What the hell?
		They have a guaranteed income, and it might be easier because this is no life for the weak at heart, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, my wife is she was she dealt in Las Vegas, and she's got a question for you.
unidentified		Come on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She wants to know why a woman has never won the World Series of poker.
unidentified		Well, I don't know what this is leading up to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, you don't, because even I don't.
		Why hasn't a woman ever won?
		And do you think one ever will?
unidentified		Oh, and see, y'all are going back several years ago when that lady got hold of about, oh, she got a hold of $700,000 or $800,000, about $800,000 in less than two hours in one of our big tournaments.
		So I was doing an interview with UPI in there in the sombrero room during a break, and naturally she stuck her goat-smelling fanny right in the middle of it and said, well, looks like, Flynn, I'm going to find to be the first woman that wins the World Series of poker.
		Now, I did not say if a woman wins it.
		I said, Vera, well, I said, Miss, if you win it, you can take a dull knife and cut my throat.
		Well, by the time guys like you got hold of it, I was quoted as saying, if a woman ever won it, they'd cut my throat.
		So every year during the World Series of Poker, some lady will get hold of a few hundred thousand or hell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, Amarilla, listen to me now.
		I wasn't going down that trail.
		I wanted to know, I mean, why hasn't a woman won?
		I mean, just the plain odds.
		It's got to be something different.
unidentified		I just don't think a woman, I hear her say I'm going to catch hell from them again.
		I've kind of got an agreement with the ladies.
		If they won't do any gambling, I won't have any babies.
		And I'll stick to my part of the deal.
		But I do say this, that's the only place in the world I can beat a woman and not get thrown in jail.
		So I welcome all the ladies to play.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you still haven't answered the question.
		Why do you think one hasn't won?
		What is it about a woman playing poker that's different?
unidentified		I just don't think they've got a heart as big as a pee.
		And under duress, I think they'll give it up.
		Maybe they won't.
		Now, wait a minute.
		I know a lot of good lady poker players.
		I know a lot of good would-be lady poker players.
		In fact, the best lady poker player that ever lived is a girl named Betty Carey.
		She hadn't been around in the last few years.
		She went to Alaska and played, and she got herself completely rich now.
		I think she's living in Montana.
		But she played about 10 different guys in Vegas, hit up poker and beat every one of them.
		And I'm talking about top water players.
		I'm not talking about somebody that's running around looking for $100,000 to get in a game with.
		I'm talking about successful players.
		So she called me and said, I'm ready to graduate.
		And I said, what do you mean?
		She said, you're next.
		So I didn't disappoint her a damn bit.
		I went out there.
		In fact, she and I played right after my first tournament at the Hilton.
		And I treated her like a stepchild.
		But I knew her hand.
		And that's the psychology in poker.
		So somebody told her that I knew her hand.
		I mean, not by deceit or deception.
		She had a tell on her.
		And I call, that's why I say there's a lot of psychology to poker.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, now a tell is something that somebody does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a giveaway, right?
unidentified		Yeah, well, I'll tell you what it is now that everybody knows about it now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		When we sat down to play, she played me a $100,000 freeze-out.
		You had to play till somebody won or lost it.
		In other words, you couldn't get winner and go to dinner.
		You had to stay and play.
		You know what I'm saying?
		Sure.
		So prior to playing, they're going after the chips.
		Well, it takes them a little while to get a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of chips and get a couple of decks and a dealer and everything.
		So as I said, I'm a coffeehound anyway.
		I said, Betty, I'm going to have a cup of coffee.
		Would you like something to drink?
		She said, well, thank you.
		Slim said, I would.
		I'd like some hot tea.
		So they brought her some hot tea.
		While they're getting all this ready and I'd finished my coffee, I looked at her and I said, Betty, how was your tea?
		Ooh, the tea was very nice, Slim.
		Thank you very much.
		I enjoyed it.
		Well, in about 40 minutes after that, a pot come up that a show dog couldn't jump over.
		I mean, it's really in technicolor.
		You know what I'm saying?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		So I say to her, Betty, how do you like your hand?
		She said, Oh, Slim, this is a real good hand.
		Well, I know that little girl lives.
		Do you understand?
		That's not what she said about that T. That was on the square.
		You know, she didn't know that was a trick for her.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a tell, huh?
unidentified		Well, I called her.
		Yeah.
		And I called her with the weakest tail.
		I called her with two fives.
		I'm talking about something that a couple of years' good salary, you know.
		And it got awful quiet in that room.
		But I knew her hand, so word got out.
		Something stupid in her tattletale.
		I went and told her what had happened to her.
		So the next time she played me, she played me again.
		Next time she played me, she played me down at the Golden Agency.
		Yeah, I know it was.
		And they had told her that she couldn't talk to me, so she showed up with one of them little discs that plays music and headphones over both ears.
		And I was at a disadvantage because I tried to get her to talk to me, and she was told if she talked to me, she couldn't play anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
unidentified		But I liked Betty.
unidentified		Betty was a good player, but the best woman player I've ever seen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you win a bet, is it most times intuition, skill, or luck?
unidentified		Well, I don't believe in luck.
unidentified		I think you make your own luck in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You make your own luck, yeah.
unidentified		No matter whatever your endeavor is.
unidentified		If you're a farmer, you'll be a lot luckier if you'll spend more time on that tractor than you do down at the golf course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got a question, and maybe you can answer this.
		No one has ever been able to for me.
		You know what a card counter is, of course, right?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
		Card counters are banned, I understand, from Las Vegas casinos on a regular basis.
		They just don't let them in.
		And I have always wondered, Amarillo, what's wrong with card counting?
		This is something you're doing totally in your head, right?
unidentified		Well, let me tell you, I was a guinea pig for a program called 60 Minutes.
unidentified		You may not be familiar with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It comes on Monday night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know it.
unidentified		And I was supposed to have not been able to play it.
		And the Nevada Gaming Commission made a ruling that I could play.
		And I played it to the only place in the world where I could have bet what I did.
		And they filmed me playing 21 for a lady.
		Now, this lady was square as an apple box.
		She didn't know.
		She thought the king was the ruler of a foreign country and the queen was his bedmate.
		She didn't know a thing in the world about cards.
		And that tight-ass producer gave her $200.
		Well, I'm supposed to take this $200 and make this lady win some money.
		And I put it on $29,800 for her in about three hours.
		And she showed no excitement, no elation whatsoever until we got ready to go to the cage and cash it in.
		And she is shaking like a leaf.
		So I know there's 16 people in the world that's barred all over the world completely.
		21.
		They're in the Griffin book.
		And people can win.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand that.
		I just don't think they should be barred.
		On what basis they're barred.
		I just never have been able to figure that out.
		I mean, this is a talent.
		They're just doing something math in their head.
		well anyway on their opinion listen what do you think of um...
		I mean, there's online gambling.
		There's casino resorts.
		We've got Indian reservations now.
		Is Las Vegas and I guess Atlantic City going to get hurt by all this?
unidentified		No, it just creates more players.
		See, I'm fairly close to that gaming industry out there in Nevada.
		And I remember when Atlantic City first opened, everybody thought that it'd take off maybe 20 as much as 22 or 35 percent of Nevada's business.
		All it did was increase it.
		Yep.
		Because it creates new players.
		And now those blanket-ass Indians have opened up a casino.
		Everybody that's got a Eubangum tribe has got a gambling license.
		And I don't think the poor old Indians are winding up with them, but there must be, I hosted the opening of 14 different Indian casinos the last two years, so they're everywhere.
		And I really and truly think they'll break the whole world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think Las Vegas, of course, you know, Las Vegas used to be an adult playground.
		Now it's like Disney Vegas.
		I mean, it's changed.
		I mean, they used to throw around the drinks and the cigarettes.
		it was just a different complex and You think so?
unidentified		Yeah, when the mob ran everything back there, you're safe walking down the street and you wasn't going to get hijacked in your room and just ordinary folks had had maybe 20 or 30,000.
		They got their room comped and food and beverage and everything.
		And now everybody's there's no camaraderie.
		You're not an individual.
		You're a dollar mark walking around.
		Hell, I'm involved in, I know some places out there where with a $100,000 card, you can't even get a room during Chinese New Year or the Super Bowl or New Year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's true.
		No, it's still successful.
		I mean, Las Vegas is growing like crazy.
unidentified		successful, my God, I think they're going to Yeah, eventually, either Vegas or lawyers.
		Well, yeah, now I'm sick of the lawyers.
		They milk me like a rocky mountain goat.
		My titties gets a sore can't button my shirt.
		So I know about the lawyers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I bet you do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They take a third of everything, and my theory is eventually.
unidentified		They button out just a little.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I said they take a third of everything, so my theory is eventually they'll have everything.
unidentified		Well, yeah, I guess the only lawyer I've got out.
		No, no, I was friends with a lot of them.
		Your mayor and I are pretty close.
		I know he came out to the Jim Miller show and introduced me and told a bunch of lies, what a good son of a gun I was, this, that, and the other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think is the hardest bet you've ever won?
unidentified		Oh, the only time I ever risked anything other than money was when I bet all that money I could go down the river of No return.
		What the hell?
		I didn't know you couldn't do it until after I'd already bet.
		Then I went and had Jacques Cousteau make me a wetsuit that would keep me alive in that water for up to 15 minutes.
		By then, I'd already charged a couple helicopters to hover on the serious part of that race.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're a cross between a gambler and evil can evil.
unidentified		Say, I like that boy, too.
unidentified		I've done some awful dirty things to the little feller.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you won some.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You beat him out of something, didn't you?
unidentified		Oh, man, I have really been a hardship on him.
		But it was good for him.
		It kind of built character, and he is a character anyway.
		I'll tell you what I did.
		One day I beat him down in Dallas playing Gosh with a bow and arrow.
		I'd already beat him playing with a hammer, so I played him something with a bow and arrow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A bow and arrow.
unidentified		So now I thrashed his little panty.
		So I was a guest speaker at the Pol Bow Banquet that night.
		After we got through yakking up there and everything, he would come around.
		He said, gee, West Lim, is there anything we can do?
		I said, oh, I don't know.
		I said, there's a map of the United States on the telephone.
		Call somebody.
		I play nearly everything there is.
		He said, well, I hate to leave here.
		So now I remembered some things I had done before.
		And I said, how many people's in here?
		He looked around and whistled out total in one of those big banquet rooms.
		He said, probably 150.
		Why?
		I said, you pull them, not me.
		And I'll bet out of the first 30 people you go to, two of them's got the same birthday.
		And brother, the wheel run off.
		Everybody in that building, except two people, one was a big shot official with the NFL.
		The other one was an NFL owner.
		Bet me something.
		They might have just bet $600 or a few hundred or a few thousand, but everybody bet.
		Well, sure enough, the 18th person that they went to had the same birthday as the second person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you know that beforehand?
unidentified		All I knew at work, I didn't know.
		I didn't put anyone in there.
		One of the guys stole my money in the floor.
		So I know he's dissatisfied.
		You understand?
		So he's insinuating there's something wrong with it.
		So I scolded him and had him pick my stuff up, hand it to me.
		And I said, well, it's obvious you think there was something wrong with it.
		So let me tell you what, do.
		You think of some place we can go.
		I said, we'll go to a theater, a bowling alley, the police station, anywhere there's 30 people.
		We'll bet again.
		One of the wise guys that was down there says, you know, why don't we call 30 taxi cabs?
		I said, y'all call them, and we won't ask them nothing.
		In Texas, they've got a little identity badge that hangs over that visor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're almost out of time here, y'all.
unidentified		All right, let me tell you.
unidentified		So anyway, we called 30 cabs, and I paid off the last 17 drivers because the 13th driver had the same birthday as the number nine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In your gambling life, Amarillo, how much money, just guessing, how much money do you think you bet one way or the other?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Winning, losing altogether, how much money passed through your hands in bets?
unidentified		Oh, you couldn't.
		It's not all win.
		See, you have some sizable losses, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I know.
		That's what I'm saying.
		Winning, losing, how much money back and forth you figure you've dealt with.
unidentified		Well, you couldn't put it in a train.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You couldn't put it in a tray.
		All right, listen, buddy.
		We've got to take off.
		We're out of time.
		But it was sure a pleasure.
		Thanks a million.
unidentified		I'll see you later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, take care.
		Amarillo Slim in a world of fat people.
		All right, we're going to take break here at the top of the hour.
		And then along comes Bob Lazar from the high desert.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		What have you done?
		Watching that cloud Until you return Hiding that door The End Be it sight and sound, the smell and touch, the something inside that we need so much.
		The sight of a touch or the scent of the sand, or the strength of an oak root deep in the ground.
		The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
		Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, to lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing, and all these things in our memories hold.
		I'm the user to help us to find Yeah
		Right, right where she saw Take this place On this trip Just for me I Take a big wall In my face I'm gonna sing It's
		for me Want to take a ride?
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east to the Rockies, call toll-free 800-825-5033.
		From west to the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach ARC by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It absolutely is.
		It's the weekend, everybody, and you're off and going to, I have a guest for you, Bob Lazar.
		He is a man who is probably one of the more controversial people in the entire field of ufology.
		I mean, really controversial.
		Bob Lazar is president of United Nuclear.
		They specialize in research and development of cutting-edge technologies, design and manufacture of radiation detection equipment for the nuclear weapons industry, and the retail of scientific equipment and supplies.
		He was formerly senior staff physicist for the U.S. Department of Naval Intelligence at the Nevada test site, you know that area near me, and the nuclear physicist at Los Alamos National Labs, where he was involved in advanced nuclear weapon design and development.
		And in the middle of all that, he's seen things that very few living Americans have ever seen.
		He's actually seen the ships.
		He's actually seen the saucers.
		In a moment, Bob Lazar.
unidentified		Bob Lazar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The End Some of you I know probably didn't hear the first program, or the last program, I guess I ought to say, I did with Bob Lazar.
		He is a fascinating guy who got to see the real McCoy at Area S4 near, of course, the infamous Area 51.
		I guess it was last, well, a few weeks ago now, I interviewed our mutual friend, John Lear.
		Oh, what an interview that was, Bob.
		It was really something.
		Welcome to the program.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, thanks, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gee, Bob, you know what?
		I'm going to start at the end.
		Why do you hate talking about UFOs?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a few reasons.
		First of all, it's gotten pretty old.
		It's been over a decade.
		And second of all, yeah, I'm glad I was involved in the project for a short time.
		But, you know, once you leave that and try and enter normal life, especially if you're peddling your services in research and development, the scientific field, it becomes really tough for people to take you seriously when you're known as the UFO guy.
		So it's just hard to kind of divorce all that stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's kind of the same problem that John Lear had, you know, when he was working for the airlines.
		So it finally got to the point where he had to say no more.
		And for years, of course, he didn't talk at all.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I know he had a lot of problems with that.
		And I don't know.
		That's something people just don't take into account.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Got fired, actually got fired because of it from one airline.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I heard.
		How do you now remember that special year with John, or maybe it was more than a year, but the period of time you spent with John and you went through all of that.
		How do you now remember that?
		Do you remember it fondly?
		Do you remember it as something you wish you hadn't done or what?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, those are fond memories.
		It was fun and exciting back then.
		You know, before all the problems started and all the hassles from the feds and whatnot.
		But, yeah, back in the early days, before all this became popular in Area 51 was on the tip of everybody's tongue.
		You know, we were sneaking around out there when there were minimal security and whatnot.
		And I had the test flight schedule at that time, so we knew exactly what was going to happen and what was going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know what I'd like to know?
		Why did you, I mean, you at that time had a pretty damn good, secure job at an extremely secret place.
		What made you decide to grab John by the collar and say, hey, buddy, I can show you something?
		I mean, how did you make that choice?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I have to place myself back in that time.
		Well, that's kind of a loaded question because there was a lot of stuff going on at that time.
		And, you know, I kind of make a long story short, at the time they were just calling me out, usually at night, on specific days to go out there when I initially started working down at the test site.
		And, you know, this was causing problems with my wife at the time because I was keeping everything confidential, even from her.
		And, you know, here 11 or 12 o'clock at night, I get this call and I disappear.
		And this happens time and time again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you going, honey?
		I'm sorry I can't talk about that.
		Right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm going to work.
		I'm sure you are.
		And as this goes on for quite a while, suspicions begin to build up.
		And I kind of kept my friends at arm's length at that time because I just didn't want any problems.
		I wanted all the newfound security to go smoothly.
		Sure.
		And I was pretty much playing with the game.
		So it started causing suspicion in my friends and immediate family and that sort of thing.
		So I decided to take the risk one night and just bring everybody out close enough to where they could see a test flight when I knew a test flight was going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you had to know what you were risking, right?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I did.
		And, you know, I can't really say what the actual motivation was back then.
		You know, specifically what made it, you know, what made me snap on that day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you angry at them?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you showing off?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, not at that point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you showing off?
		There's nothing wrong with that, by the way.
		I mean, if that's what it was, that's what it was.
		I mean, I can understand.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, it really wasn't that, you know, and that would actually be an easy answer.
		But it really wasn't that.
		If I recall, we didn't start butting heads until after that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But that was about it.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I think it was to alleviate suspicion and show several of my friends what was going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was really going on.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much during those sojourns, how much did you actually get to see along with John?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		While we were out of the area or while I was actually working there in the area?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, they're two separate things.
		No, I meant when you took John and others up there.
		Is what you saw was it convincing for those who came along with you?
		There was no question in their mind about what they were seeing.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, there was no question.
		I mean, John hauled out his, even though we got much closer in than you can today near the area.
		Well, I have no idea what it's like today, but at least when I was last in Las Vegas a few years ago, you really couldn't get very far out on the road.
		But we drove in close to 10 miles, and you can't do that anymore.
		But John hauled out his Celestron 10-inch telescope, and from there it was quite a view.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you were seeing saucers.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		A saucer, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A saucer.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Hovering, moving, just lifted off the ground and hovered around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any idea?
		Now, of course, you actually, it's another story, but I mean, you, of course, got in to see the real McCoy.
		You saw how many saucers ultimately at S4?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there were nine total.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nine total.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, these were seen at a distance.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		The only one I actually had direct contact with was the one that was being test-flown.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		Do you have any idea how they sufficiently back-engineered whatever in the hell they found inside that saucer to be able to test fly it?
		Do you have any idea what went on to learn about it?
		I mean, there must have been...
		Inside this thing?
		What was it like?
		If you were standing there looking at it inside, what would you be seeing?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess the most shocking thing about it is it was everything was one color.
		There was no aesthetics at all.
		Everything was a light gray.
		And it was as if, and I've said this before, it was as if the entire device was made out of, carved out of wax, heated for a bit and cooled off.
		There were no sharp edges, no right angles.
		Everything was rounded and smooth, both inside and out.
		There were no seams or anything like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was like it had been done from a mold or something?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right, like a giant injection mold of some sort.
		So that's it.
		It's yeah, I mean, that was probably the most obvious thing you'd notice when you walk in there.
		It just didn't look conventional at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any idea, again, I mean, from that, could you see but how did they navigate this thing?
		Were there buttons?
		whether joysticks with their what sort of No idea.
		And so you would have no idea then how they back-engineered.
		It would have to be a pretty dangerous thing to take a craft that you just had and try to figure out how to fly the damn thing.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I imagine so, and from the stories I've heard, that it was quite a dangerous thing.
		But unfortunately, a lot of this went on way before I ever got there.
		And obviously, they had at least found out to some extent how some of the systems and subsystems operated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know how they got their hands on these in the first place?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, how did they get them?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I don't know.
		Unfortunately, a lot of the information is compartmentalized, so nobody has, no one person has the whole story about everything.
		And that's typically done in any government project.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		So nobody can walk away with the whole project or knowledge of everything.
		But I wish I had the complete picture of what was going on.
		Even just smaller pieces to the picture I did have.
		I would be very interested in how the navigational system operated.
		That still kind of puzzles me, as do flight controls and things of that sort.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And propulsion?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This element, what is it, 116?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		115.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, 115.
		115.
		Do you have any concept of how the propulsion system did what it did?
		I know how a jet plane moves from A to B and so forth and so on.
		I mean, how was this element 115 used to move the craft?
		What kind of propulsion system is it?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It's a gravity propulsion system.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It's something that's completely alien to us, if you don't mind me saying that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's good word.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Instead of an action-reaction system, I guess the analogy I always use is if you go put a bowling ball in the middle of your bed and three feet away from it, push your fist into the bed and push down really hard, the bowling ball rolls towards it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		And what happens in these craft, or in this particular one anyway, there were three gravity amplifiers in them.
		And what these are are long tubes that are in the belly of the craft.
		And they're on kind of a universal pivot type joint to make it simple.
		It's actually something more complicated than that, but what they can do is swing two of the emitters up at one time, focus on a point in front of the crass, and cause a local distortion.
		And essentially, the craft moves forward towards it just like the bowling ball would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's falling into a path it's making for itself.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		It's kind of constantly rolling downhill, so to speak.
		Yeah.
		Which is the opposite of how our vehicles travel.
		We always accelerate air, throw exhaust out the back, do something to propel something forward, and in the air anyway.
		And this essentially operates the opposite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, is it dependent on a local field of gravity?
		In other words, obviously these ships are designed to fly through interstellar space.
		And I wonder whether if they're using gravity in that manner, then how does local gravity, I wonder, affect them?
		In other words, the Earth has gravity.
		And when they're within our field, is it any different than when they're in interstellar space in terms of the way it operates?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, completely.
		There's two different modes of travel.
		There's Delta and Omicron.
		Oh.
		And the Omicron configuration is when the craft uses one of the emitters to essentially hover on and causes that local distortion with the other two in front of it, causing it to move forward.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is something I've never heard before, okay?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		The delta configuration, in fact, let me take a step back for a second.
		That's how the craft has flown in an area of gravity.
		Now, when you want to leave a local area of gravity, say you fly into space, what is done is you transition from Omicron to Delta.
		And in a lot of the UFO pictures you see occasionally, you'll see these UFOs at these ridiculous angles, at 45-degree angles hanging in the middle of the air.
		And the reason for that is that's the transition between the two different flight modes.
		As the craft lifts off the ground, it has to fly in a gravity-free environment in space with the belly forward.
		It doesn't fly like a flying saucer does in a science fiction movie.
		The emitters focus on one point, all three of them out in space, and that's how the thing travels.
		So you're kind of going from a conventional mode of flight, lifting up in the air, raising the belly, and then aiming that towards your target, and that's how you progress.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bob, knowing what you know about at least the propulsion system, what can you imagine that might go wrong and cause a craft to crash as it allegedly did, for example, at Roswell?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You know, I've wondered about that for a while, and I really can't see how one of these things could crash.
		But apparently it did.
		But I just can't see where a failure is going to typically occur.
		I don't care if there's a lightning storm or what locally is going on unless there was something that occurred within the craft.
		I don't think there's any external force that's going to act on it, certainly any natural force, and cause any problems.
		Because if you're generating your own gravitational field, you're essentially immune to everything that's going on around you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If that field should fail for some reason.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, that's why I say if some defect occurred inside, or if something was done unintentionally as far as piloting the craft, that I could see happening.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But I don't buy the story somebody comes cruising in from 30 light years away, runs into a thunderstorm, and crashes into the ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you bet.
		Are you convinced that Roswell was in fact a crash of an alien craft?
		No.
		Oh, really?
		Now, there's a surprise.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, you used the word convinced.
		Well, there's a lot of information that leads me to believe that, but, you know, I'm one of the most skeptical people when it comes to flying saucer stories.
		And I know that almost sounds hypocritical, but that's just the way it is.
		Becoming involved with one aspect of it kind of cemented that in my mind.
		But, you know, boy, there's lots of wacko stories out there, and I'm sure you've heard your share of them, maybe more than anybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps I have.
		But, you know, if this propulsion system, I mean, it could mean so much for the world.
		If we knew how to manipulate gravity in that way, that obviously would be a power source that could be harnessed and utilized in a world where we're running out of coal and oil and all the conventional stuff we've used.
		We really badly need another energy source.
		I mean, when you saw these saucers, it was how many years ago now?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was in 88, 89.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		88, 89.
		And now, 2003, we're starving for energy.
		We're probably going to have wars.
		Well, we are having wars because of it, and there'll be more wars because of it.
		So why do you suppose, Bob, that all of this has been kept from the world?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		There's also a tremendous weapon potential here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That too.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You know, a tremendous weapon potential, maybe more so than energy, because as far as duplicating the power system, well, you need access to materials, elements, things of that sort that we simply don't have and cannot fabricate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know they'd be making weapons.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, of course.
		Of course, if you can control, I think I said this on my last interview with you, we have, We have devices that can produce artificial light.
		But the big gap is we don't have a machine that can make gravity.
		There's nothing that does that.
		That's a big gap in physics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or we haven't made it public.
		And the question is, why is this technology still buried?
		I'll tell you what, we're at the bottom of the air.
		Hold on, Bob.
		We'll come back and we'll jump right back into the same place.
		It's what Dr. Greer, who, by the way, will be here tomorrow night.
		A lot of other people want to know about why is all of this being kept secret.
		From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Coast to Coast AM
		To target with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To target with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may recharge by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast, and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, and my guest, of course, is Bob Lazar, the very controversial Bob Lazar is a physicist, and he's actually been where few living human beings have ever been.
		And that's standing right in front of the real McCoy.
		UFOs, flying saucers, flying discs.
		Some describe, one described, I recall, as the sports model.
		But the real thing.
		In fact, I believe what Bob saw resulted in the tester model.
		Do you remember the tester model?
		Of the saucer?
		Well, that came from, at least in part, if not in totality, Bob's description.
		I think that's right.
		We'll ask about that in a moment.
unidentified		Bob Lazar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		The ability to create or manipulate gravity.
		Some incredible thing, to be sure.
		And Bob, we were talking about the energy needs of the world, and then you brought up weapons.
		And you betcha.
		I mean, do you believe, for example, that they have, in fact, developed weapons using this technology and that we have them now in our arsenal?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		My own personal belief, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, huh?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Because I saw evidence of that even when I worked there.
		Part of the briefing contained a couple hints about using gravity as a lens, or one of the gravity emitters as a lens, to focus energy weapons.
		So which, to take a step back, if you're particle beams and other energy-type weapons of that sort disperse quickly in an atmosphere.
		And it's kind of hard to keep a focused, intense beam on your target.
		But if you can manipulate gravity, you know, you can really, really change the dynamics of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would such a weapon do?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what they're using a technology there essentially to focus something that's conventional.
		But if you could maintain the energy density, maintain essentially a tight focus spot of any high-intensity energy, you could burn, penetrate, destroy different targets.
		But also, it's also a great defensive thing because once you start talking about manipulating gravity and you can create a gravitational field in any plane you wish, you know, things that become possible are what we consider science fiction.
		Now, the popular shields in Star Trek become possible now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how about the not quite so as fictional suggestions made by Ronald Reagan about Star Wars?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, you've got to wonder if some of what that man said at that time came from some knowledge he might have had about what was possible.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It could certainly have had.
		I've heard several people talk about Reagan in that way.
		And I know he made several of those speeches making reference to aliens invading the Earth and whatnot.
unidentified		But yeah, that's very possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Certainly, that would have been one of the early conclusions any military mind would have drawn, and that could have easily made it to the top to the president.
		Ronald Reagan was somebody who said what was on his mind to the consternation of many around him.
		You know, he'd just say what was on his mind to hell with the consequences.
		So one does have to wonder about that.
		But still, there it is.
		Maybe we've got the weapons.
		We didn't use them in Iraq.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, I think these are way too valuable to use in combat.
		These aren't things that have been produced.
		You know, we have, if we have any, we're using the parts from the craft and their prototypes, and I don't think anybody is risking putting these valuable things into battle.
		I think it's, you know, unless we've developed another source for the materials or have been able to duplicate them, you know, in the past 10 years, I really don't see that we're going to be going anywhere with that.
		But who knows?
		Maybe by this time, research has continued and they've actually come up with something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One of the key things that John Lear did during our last interview was he said, hey, Art, I'm going to take you to a briefing, and you're going to get to say whether you think all of this,
		there should be total disclosure about everything the United States government has done since day one regarding this whole issue of extraterrestrials, what we've learned, what information we have, how we got it, what we've done with it, the terrible things government has done to protect the secrets and all the rest of it.
		I'm going to lay it all out for you, and you decide whether or not it should be all publicly disclosed.
		You know, everybody in ufology is screaming for disclosure.
		And so I'm wondering about you, Bob.
		If you had a litany of things laid in front of you that we had done, some of them pretty terrible, if you buy it, would you say that there should be full disclosure, or is this something better kept from the American or the world public?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not better kept from the American people because we're supposed to be the government.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		We hire these guys, elect them to their positions to take care of business.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		So nothing is supposed to be kept from us.
		However, there are other countries.
		We do have an awful lot of people in the world that just hate us because we're alive.
		And if you're concerned about weapons and the proliferation of things of that sort, you do need to keep certain things secret from the rest of the world.
		However, it's one of the things that I had said initially, go ahead and keep all that stuff secret, but just admit, hey, by the way, you know, a long time ago, we ran into some of these things.
		This technology is real.
		There apparently is actual intelligent extraterrestrial life somewhere else.
		And, you know, we have a few artifacts.
		And, you know, go ahead and release some stuff to the public.
		Say, look, here, you know, here's a hinge made on another world.
		Just something generic.
		And, you know, keep all the other stuff secret.
		But then I can also see the flip side of that.
		That's going to whet everybody's appetite and there's going to be a furor over disclosing the rest of the information.
		And if the government's been keeping that for secret for so long, what else have they been keeping secret?
		But I don't see the government coming clean with any of this stuff.
		I mean, they're up to all kinds of no-good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe that there is a government behind the government, you know, sort of pulling the strings, as it were?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't know about that.
		I think ours is pretty screwed up as it is.
		I don't think it needs anybody else pulling any strings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you're right about that.
		But surely there is some method for keeping this gigantic secret, and not all politicians, nor even perhaps all presidents, are told about the existence of that.
		Do you believe that?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, I think very few people know.
		And one of the things they told me, which was one of my first comments there when I finally knew what I was working on, how do you guys keep this secret?
		And what they told me was, this is the easiest thing in the world to keep secret because it's so unbelievable.
		And, you know, when you really think about it, they're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they are because everything just gets dismissed or perhaps erased.
		How much anger do you have for them now?
		I mean, what they did to you.
		They virtually erased Your life.
		They brought a steel fist right down in the middle of your life and kind of ruined things for quite a while for you.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		I've tried to put this out of my mind.
		You know, as I fight to try and just put this behind me and forget about everything, you know, a lot of people keep prodding me for information and it resurfaces in my mind.
		But for the most part, I just try and get rid of this.
		At the time, sure, I was pissed off, more so than you can possibly imagine.
		And, you know, as my friends at that time recall, I drove around in my little 280Z with an Uzi.
		You know, that's the kind of trouble I expected, and I didn't go anywhere without it.
		But, you know, times have changed.
		A lot of time has gone by.
		And I don't know.
		It's kind of hard to say.
		Yeah, it's always in the back of my mind.
		But, you know, what am I going to do?
		To this day, I'm still fighting to get some paperwork and some things I can't even talk about, but back to the way it was so I can be a normal person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You obviously thought they were going to kill you.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no question.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		That was the impetus for going on the news that way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		And the famous or infamous Channel 8 thing.
		Yeah.
		You want to tell everybody about that?
		Because, of course, not everybody in the rest of the country either recalls or knew about what happened with regard to that.
		Explain exactly how that came down.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm wondering how far I should go back.
		Well, essentially, after I left the project, and it wasn't really voluntary, but I'm trying to remember exactly what happened then.
		In fact, I think it was John, that interview took place at John Lear's house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was George Knapp that talked you into it, wasn't it?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was a combination of both.
		I think I had gone down to John Lear's house and really was afraid to go home at that time and hid out there for a while.
		And John said, why don't you go talk to George Knapp?
		And maybe if the stuff's all over the news, they'll just leave you alone.
		It'd be your way of kind of pushing back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		george knap folks is a reporter for channel eight uh...
		the c_b_s_ affiliate in las vegas and it was uh...
		no, that's right.
		George is just a very heavy-duty investigative reporter for that station.
		And I guess he was sort of doing stories on John Lear at that time, and then somehow you got involved in this.
		And then, if I remember correctly, you were put on television in a shadow behind something or s I can't remember.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was just a backlit shadow, so you couldn't recognize who I was, and the pseudonym I used was the name of my boss at the time, which was kind of a little smack in the face to say, Hey, just back off and leave me alone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		and apparently that caused quite a stir and I got a call shortly after that and needless to say they were pretty upset with that move Do you think John, well I bet they were do you think John wanted you to do it to in essence back him up at that point?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh I'm sure at that time I mean you have to look at things at that time first of all I got into the project thinking I was going to be working on a new fighter a propulsion system for a new fighter aircraft and I was certainly not one of the people that believed in UFOs these were people that were just you know something to laugh at as far as I was concerned so I already lost my train of thought Well let me put you back in that chair.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that night when the interview was done, what did you say to the audience that night?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was essentially just admitting that there were nine craft out there, that they were actively back engineering and attempting to duplicate the power and propulsion system of the craft.
		And that's basically about all that was said.
		I mean, there were a few details about where it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was enough.
		That was like taking a match and throwing it on gasoline.
		What was the reaction like after that?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it was pretty widespread.
		It went all over the place.
		I had seen news because they interrupt, well, I don't know if they interrupted it, but it was in the middle of 5 o'clock news.
		They did a live broadcast, and I've seen that exact broadcast repeated on Japanese television and in Germany.
		So it made the world fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was the nickname you used for that interview?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Dennis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dennis, yeah, that's what they called you.
		Dennis.
		A long time ago now, that must have taken great big ones to sit in that chair and say that on television.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Dennis Mariani was my supervisor at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so after that story broke, I mean, you must have, you and John probably just sat back and watched the world explode around you.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, kind of.
		Yeah, I mean, at that time, you know, John Allier was out there himself saying that there were flying saucers at the test site and, you know, all kinds of stuff that I thought was pretty silly.
		But as it turned out, you know, he was right.
		I don't know what information source he had at that time, but...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I guess maybe that's the reason that you went to John as dragging him along, saying, hey, I got something to show you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe you just sort of felt as though you owed it to him in some way, huh?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
		I actually can't remember the exact reason.
		But it was just the people around me at the time I felt obligated to at least give a peek to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wasn't the tester company that makes models came out with a model of a UFO, of a flying saucer, quite a unique scale model of a flying saucer.
		I have one of them.
		And how much of your input was used to create that model?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, 100%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		100%.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Yeah, John Andrews from Testers just sat down and said, hey, we want to make a model of this, and you want to help us or not?
		And I said, yeah, okay, this is it.
		And they brought a couple guys in, and, you know, off the top of my head, I tried to remember some dimensions, and we did some initial drawings, and the craft just didn't look right.
		And he had a couple friends that were, I don't quite remember what they were skilled in, but in any case, they were able to get the correct dimensions by me recognizing the sizes of known objects at various distances.
		And they kind of, you know, back-engineered it from that and were able to get the proper dimensions.
		And when the drawing was done, that did look correct.
		And I think I'm more comfortable with the final drawings and dimensions they came up with.
		And it was, I think, came up to 52.8 feet in diameter or something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you look at the tester model today, do you look at that and say, yup, that's what I saw?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no question, that they hit the nail on the head with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yeah.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's exactly it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long a process was that for you to accurately finally, you know, I guess it's like going to a police station and going to a sketch artist and have them finally come up with something that matches the person you saw.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		If I remember, it took a while.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It probably took a month on and off of going over drawings, drawing the layout over and over again and having these guys look at it and then scale it up and see if things fit.
unidentified		But it did take quite a while.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Am I right or wrong?
		Do you really have, do you own a missile silo in Roswell, New Mexico?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, John Ferrat and I have a project going down there.
		And it's a decommissioned nuclear missile silo just outside of Roswell.
		And it's not like I wanted a place outside of Roswell.
		It just happened to be where I was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But how does the print go about getting a missile silo in the first place?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, who do you approach?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think they're actually on the Internet.
		If you type in missile silo, there are a few left for sale.
		But they are pretty neat.
		I believe where the missile sits is 200 feet deep.
		And these places are quite a deal compared to what the government paid for them.
		I think they paid close to $13 million just for the concrete to build these places.
		And it's literally bomb-proof.
		You can set a thermonuclear bomb on the door and set it off and still be drinking beer inside for a while anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why did you want a silo?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it was cool.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just because it's cool.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, we also have some other plans for it, but...
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Nah, I'm really not on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		So this is a full decommissioned nuclear missile silo in Roswell.
		yeah, just not something that the average person would have or want.
		And I wish I knew what you were going to do with it, but you can't talk about that at all, huh?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, not really.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I could tell you some of the things we're not doing with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not launching missiles.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, unfortunately, I couldn't find a reload kit for the place, but I would certainly have bought one like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		All right, hold that thought.
		We'll be right back.
		It's the top of the hour.
		My guest is Bob Lazar.
		He does.
		He owns a missile silo in Roswell, New Mexico.
		And he'll tell us shortly things that, well, I guess he's not going to tell us.
		He's going to tell us things you can't do with it, or he can't do with it, or maybe things that he will do with it.
		We'll see what we can pry out of them next.
unidentified		We'll see what we can pry out of them next.
		He's got the stream five.
		He's going to give up the booze and dance.
		Five little down.
		Forget about everything.
		You know he'll always keep moving.
		You know he's never going to stop moving.
		Cause he's rolling.
		He's the rolling stone.
		When you wake up, it's a new morning.
		The sun is shining.
		It's a new morning.
		You're going.
		You're going home.
		Hey!
		Hey!
		To talk with Art Bell.
		Call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from East to the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From West to the Rockies, call ARC at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I liked his answer, actually.
		Why would you own a missile?
		Why would you buy a missile silo?
		Well, because it's cool.
		Now, you see, I can understand that answer because it's cool.
		Indeed, owning a missile silo would be cool.
		Well, Bob Lazar owns one, and he's pretty cool, and he'll be right back.
unidentified		The End you Once again, Bob Lazar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bob, you said you could describe some things that, what, you can't do or you might.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, one thing I do have to correct is my partner, John Ferrad, and I are involved in the silo, and John has far more invested in it than I do.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		So just to say that it's mine personally, I guess, in the respect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, but did you, there had to be more.
		Well, maybe there did.
		You know, I was going to actually put a rocket on my front lawn to impress my neighbors.
		I thought it would be cool.
		I mean, if you're a neighbor and you see a rocket go up in a guy's lawn.
		So do you own a silo for the same reason?
		Just for just, well, you said it.
		It's cool.
		It is cool.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, we actually have some serious plans for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought you might.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, you don't invest all kinds of money just for the hell of it.
		But it's amazing the amount of rumors that start.
		And generally, for some reason, when my name's involved somewhere, all kinds of ridiculous stories pop out of the woodwork.
		But I think even Channel 8 carried that story in Las Vegas there.
		And in fact, when I was down at the silo, we got a call from the police in Roswell.
		And they sounded kind of embarrassed and said, you know, we're going to have to come down and check out the facility there.
		And we asked why, and there was kind of a hesitation.
		And they said, I know this sounds crazy, but, you know, we have people that actually have come down to the station and said that they believe you're holding alien hostages underground in silo.
		Yeah, every day.
		And, you know, because they filed the report, they actually went down.
		They are obligated to go check things out.
		So they had to come down and verify that there's no aliens being held hostage in there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They actually did that?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, they did that while I was there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, that's a story in itself.
		That got reported.
		I missed that one.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was most recently, before I moved to New Mexico.
		What had happened was just a random guy drove out there and was planning on committing suicide.
		Now, of all the places in the world, this guy could have gone to kill himself.
		He drove down the road to the silo, parked on top of it, and set his car on fire or something like that.
		Anyway, the thing burnt to the ground and the guy was dead.
		And prior to that, there's also wild animals, antelope, cattle, whatever in the area.
		And there's been a couple dead cows out there.
		So the connection between cattle mutilations and all this stuff started brewing in the minds of some people.
		So somehow it got around that I was developing a death ray in this underground facility and that I had tested it on cattle, which is why they were dead.
		And of course, a guy came driving down the road and I vaporized his car and killed him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you maintain that none of this is true.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, of course not.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But it's just amazing the stories that get started.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you, of course, you are Bob Lazar.
		There is a certain aura around you.
		And when you connect that with buying a missile silo, people's imaginations naturally go berserk.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, berserk is a good word.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, but, then again, you are Bob Lazar.
		It is a missile silo, and to be honest, you haven't actually answered my question yet about what you're going to do with it.
		And you say you can't answer that question, and you know that's going to feed rumors.
		Got me thinking.
		Okay, well, all right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope that I can't help that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bob, over the years, especially in that time period when you were with John and the whole thing was coming down, how much, and you've done a number of public interviews, several with me, how much is left that you can't talk about?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Can't?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can't, can't, or unable to.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Concerning the UFO information.
		Yeah.
		Not a whole lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But some.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		There's just a couple little tidbits, and I think I've told you that before.
		There's a couple things that I need, and this isn't to burn anybody and hold information back, but it's in case somebody claims that they were involved with the project or work there.
		There are a couple things that only those people will know.
		And anytime that anybody brings those up when questioned by me, I'll know.
		So that's the only reason.
		There's just a few little bits and pieces of information here and there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All righty, then let's go down that road for a second.
		I mean, there are others like you, Bob, who worked out in and saw all of that.
		Obviously, there had to be quite a number over the years of people who became aware of that knowledge.
		Why are there not a lot more Bob Lazars out there?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Initially, I was not supposed to be the only one that came forward.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not supposed to be?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean you had an agreement with someone?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, Barry, the guy that I worked with there, was supposed to additionally come forward, but that apparently never happened, so I was left out there in the dark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Twisting in the breeze.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		So I don't know what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So this Barry had promised you he would step forward with you?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, kind of.
		And, you know, I wonder if it's wise really to comment too much on that.
		Because I don't know what Barry's situation is now.
		But we had talked about things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if somebody were to come forward and claim they had seen what you saw, they also know it to be true because they worked there, you would have a couple of questions you'd be able to ask them that would verify the authenticity.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Instantaneously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Instantaneously.
		All right.
		Now, why did you move?
		I mean, you've been a very longtime desert rat out here in the Las Vegas area, nearby me, and, of course, the infamous area 51S4 and all the rest of it.
		I mean, you lived here so long.
		Why'd you move?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You know, after a while, Las Vegas gets to you.
		I was there, and certainly working at the test site was fascinating.
		And a little bit of the work I did there when I initially moved to Las Vegas.
		But after that, being out of the scientific field, I really went stagnant and really didn't produce or do anything that I really considered worthwhile and just needed to get out of the Las Vegas environment completely.
		And New Mexico, especially around the Albuquerque area, you know, you have two of the most prominent national nuclear labs here, Los Alamos and Sandia, and the cities here are filled with PhD scientists.
		And it felt good to get back into the mainstream of things.
		And in the short time I was here, in the first 18 months, I just began to actually produce what I considered decent work.
		I started filing for patents and, as you know, working on the hydrogen system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about that, as a matter of fact.
		Yeah, patents on hydrogen fuel systems.
		And I know you've had them in your car.
		You've run your car on hydrogen for a long time, right?
		Right.
		Whatever patents you have, what's this about a SWOT team coming in and grabbing all of your data and computers?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You know, I have to stop you there.
		We can't even touch that one.
		I spoke to my attorney after I sent that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm kidding.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, we've got to totally just talk about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not talk about that.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At any rate, now that you're back or you're in New Mexico, you feel like you're doing good work in your area once again.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and it's, you know, I guess it's just a different mindset.
		And also the immediate area that I live in, you know, moving up isolated in the mountains in the middle of a forest and, you know, on a lot of acres of land is different than living right in the middle of Las Vegas and typically in town.
		So it's just a freer environment.
		And I'm building my own research lab here.
		And I don't know, it's a lot more fertile ground for thinking and actually doing something serious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I do get the sense.
		There is still an awful lot you can't talk about.
		You said a couple of things, but then we keep touching on several things that still there's aspects of it that you can't talk about.
		So I would say a lot of your life still is surrounded by having to keep secrets.
		Are you good at keeping secrets?
unidentified		No, I think it's been proven pretty well that I can't do that.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But it drives me crazy because the thing I would love, I could spend four hours on the phone more pissed up than you can imagine talking about this SWAT team thing.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But my hands are tied right now.
unidentified		Oh, no, maybe in the future I can say something about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, attorneys are that way.
		I know, and there's ongoing stuff.
		And they're right, Of course, ultimately, they're right.
		But it does kill you not to be able to talk about something.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that you're working on, without asking you specifically what you're working on, did any of, let's try it this way, did any of your experience at S-World, what you saw and what you learned technically, have application in any work that you're either doing now or contemplating?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
		Yes.
		Now, I'm obligated to ask you about your project, what you envision, what you're doing, even in general terms.
		Can you tell me a little bit about what you're working on?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's, actually, I'm overburdened with projects in progress.
		As you mentioned, the hydrogen fuel systems.
		That's actually something I've been working on since the late 70s.
		and that's finally come to fruition and a lot of the materials needed long-term testing and they've certainly had it now.
		That's probably the biggest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, hydrogen is being touted.
		Even the President of the United States is touting it as the way to go.
		But there are others, Bob, who say, look, this is in a way all foolishness because to create hydrogen in amounts that would be good for the public to use, energy cells, fuel cells, would require manufacturing, pollution, the use of energy.
		In other words, all you're really doing is finding a new storage facility in WayAid to store energy that still has to be produced, frankly, in the old-fashioned way.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, not really.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then lay it on me, not really how.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, there's two trains of thought here.
		The automotive industry, the president and his advisors, are all going down the fuel cell path.
		And for those that don't know, a fuel cell is a device that takes gaseous hydrogen and oxygen, combines them, and makes electricity.
		And the little fuel cell water dribbles out of it, because when the hydrogen and oxygen combine, the only byproduct is water.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so you can use these in cars or to power homes or whatever, right?
unidentified		Right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, you can use these things in their car of the future as fuel cells and an electric motor, and that's how the car is powered.
		Now, that's very efficient.
		It's around 35% efficient overall.
		And that is pretty neat.
		However, all the technology is not there.
		The vehicles will be fantastically expensive.
		None really exist right now in production.
		And what about the billion cars that are on the road now?
		Is everybody going to dish out $175,000 for a new car?
		And on top of that, they want to just replace gasoline pumps with hydrogen pumps and sell you the fuel again?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's get back to refuting this.
		In other words, no matter how it works, Bob, and it sounds like you're almost more on the negative than the positive side of this, but I mean, no matter how it works, aren't conventional fuels going to have to be used in copious amounts to produce these cylinders of hydrogen?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		The system that I came up with, first of all, converts a conventional car to burn hydrogen conventionally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And with how much cost?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me get to that in a second.
		The actual conversion is not that difficult, not that terribly expensive.
		I have not used any energy producing any of the hydrogen that I make as far as power off the grid, fossil fuels, or whatnot.
		Hydrogen is easily electrolyzed by water.
		If you need to prove it to yourself, take a 12-volt battery, put both wires in the water, add a pinch of salt, and you'll see bubbles coming off of one side.
		Well, some off the other two.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That ought to be hydrogen.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Anyway, it's easily produced, and it can be produced with solar panels or a wind turbine.
		I use solar panels.
		That's where all my hydrogen comes from.
		I fill up the Corvette with it, and we drive 700 miles on it.
		And the car will also run on gasoline.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So that's perfected.
		I mean, it works, right?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right, and it's worked for years and years and years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's say I buy a conventional automobile for, I don't know, 20, 30 grand, something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would it cost to convert a car like that to hydrogen?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, the big hang-up right now has been the actual storage medium.
		You don't want to store hydrogen as just a compressed gas because it's dangerous, it's flammable, and on top of that, you need thousands of times more space to hold the hydrogen than you would an equivalent amount of gasoline.
		So it just doesn't work.
		You don't want to store it liquid because that's cryogenic, it's dangerous, it's just a big thermos bottle in your tank, and it's another big headache.
		The third way is the best way, and that's a metal hydride.
		And this is a granular material that absorbs hydrogen like a sponge absorbs water.
		And it only releases the hydrogen when it's heated.
		And when it's not being heated, I can fire incendiary bullets through the hydride tank, and it just smolders like a cigarette.
		So it's extremely safe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		And this is the material that I store the hydrogen in, in the vehicles and for home use.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is this the subject of a patent?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Now, there are various hydride materials, and some were actually very difficult to get a hold of because some of them, like lithium-6-deuteride, which is a hydride, actually, well, the material I use is a hydride, the only use for that material is in thermonuclear bombs.
		And it's restricted, obviously restricted for sale.
		And the only reason some of these hydrides are manufactured was for the weapons industry, and they're done so in such small quantities, the cost was very high.
		For instance, to convert the Corvette just for the tanks of hydride, we were looking at $15,000 without the hydrogen conversion itself.
		So this is you know that's that's a a pretty large price tag.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bottom line right now.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if this whole thing were perfected and you had access to the materials and it were done in mass, I'd like to get some idea of what it would cost to convert.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've been working with the hydride manufacturers and they promise a 70% reduction in cost in volume production.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does that make it viable?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Very much so.
		I mean, wouldn't you pay between $4,500 and $6,000 to have your car converted?
		You'll have your hydrogen generator at home so you can drive locally and even up to 700 miles away on hydrogen.
		And if you want, you can always put gas in the tank and the car will switch over to gasoline when I've always wanted to know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would I need to do that?
		Would hydrogen give me the same equal amount of horsepower?
		Would I be happy with a hydrogen fuel?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You get a little less, you know, for instance, in a larger engine.
		In fact, that's the reason we converted the Corvette, was a lot of these alternate fuel cars, these little Ford escorts and these little tiny motors, and it leaves everybody wondering, well, can't you power something substantial?
		So we purposely did a large V8 engine, and yeah, it still lights up the tires and screams away.
		There's a little loss in horsepower, but in a large engine, you're not going to detect a 10% loss in horsepower.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you're still having a lot of fun, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's enough horsepower that generally most people are going to be happy campers.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
		And most people are willing to pay that price tag if they never, ever have to go to a gas station again.
		And who wouldn't?
		On top of that, you're not supporting, you know, the oil cartel or anything else that's going on or polluting the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'll hold it right there.
		Bob has a Corvette converted to hydrogen, and he's had that for a long time.
		And I guess the rest of the world is yet to come.
		We'll continue to talk with Bob Lazar, who knows lots of things.
		We'll see what we can pry from him as the hours continue.
		From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach ART by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bet on it.
		We'll get questions from all of you for Bob Lazar coming up in the next hour.
		Listen, check out my webcam.
		By popular demand, I did put up a picture of the tester model.
		I'm holding the tester model for you in case you've never seen it.
		There it is.
		That's Bob's accurate recollection of what he saw at Area S4 that I'm holding in my hands.
		That's on my webcam.
		Top left-hand side of thecoastcoastm.com website.
		By the way, there may be, in fact, we know there are other Bob Lazars out there.
		And if there are, I'd like to encourage you to contact me.
		We'll work it out.
		Trust me, a lot of people get a little older now, and perhaps they'd like to talk about the things they saw up there.
		If you would, email me.
		My email address is artbell at mindspring.com.
		That's artbell, A-R-T-B-E-L-L, at mindspring.com.
		So if you're another Bob Lazar out there and you figure the time is right for you and you want to tell your story, I'm your guy.
		That's the way to get me.
		Artbell at mindspring.com.
		Bob Lazar will be right back.
unidentified		Bob Lazar will be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And by the way, I was probably going to screw up my little scenario pleading for some more Bob Lazars to come forward.
		But out of curiosity, Bob, tonight all across the world, people who have been involved up at Area 51S4 have seen what you have seen.
		These people, they're probably listening, Bob.
		A lot of them are listening, you can be sure of it, actually.
		And so what would you say to these people?
		Would you say, You know what?
		Art's right.
		Why don't you go ahead and email them, and why don't you come on and tell what you know?
		Would you advise them to do that?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I knew you'd screw it up.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Don't tell anybody what you know.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Take my word for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I knew you'd do that.
unidentified		I knew it.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, that really is my message.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Just forget it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Forget it, huh?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Just forget it.
		Don't bother saying anything.
		It's not worth the hassle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's not worth it.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It's not.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		And for the most part, nobody's going to believe what you have to say anyway, so don't even think of doing it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, thanks for the help.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, but you asked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I knew, I guess, what I was in for.
		Okay, well, I know, but still, all right, but let me take the other side of it, Bob.
		Let's fight this a little bit.
		There's a lot of people out there, like Stephen Greer, who I have on tomorrow night, and they really do make a compelling, damn strong case that, gosh, darn it all, if we've been visited by aliens, if they've really been here, if we have their craft, their technology, and even bodies, and this is such an incredibly large story, so important to the human race that nobody has a right to keep anything like this secret, and it should be told.
		It should be out in the open.
		And if these Bob Lazars don't come in and talk to me and others, then how in the hell are we ever going to find out?
		Because you said it yourself, the government sure isn't going to tell us.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I agree with that completely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then how can you say that?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		From personal experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, in other words, you're not really a crusader at all, are you?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		No.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I'm not involved in UFO research.
		I don't follow the stories.
		I don't do lectures.
		I don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know you don't.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You know, I don't do any of that stuff.
		I try and put it behind me, and a lot of people really have the drive to get this stuff uncovered.
		But generally, those are the people that haven't been involved with anything.
		And sticking your neck out on the line really does change your life forever.
		And it's not a positive thing.
		People really get the wrong impression.
		They think that this is a big boost in some way to you.
		And it's not by any stretch of the imagination.
		So why would I recommend somebody do that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot of people, Bob, think that, I mean, when they have these reality TV shows and people line up for blocks and wait two days through the ice and the cold to get a chance to be, you know, I have FaceTime on television.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We do live in that kind of world, and so some people suspect your motive is that.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I hate being on TV.
		I hate doing interviews, and I don't do lectures and all that.
		How could that possibly be my motivation?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
		Well, believe me, I do understand.
		Do you have any knowledge?
		Diane up in Washington wants to know.
		I get a computer message every now and then, a lot of them actually.
		Do you have any knowledge?
		It's a good question, of any agreement between any group of aliens and humans or the U.S. government.
		Do you believe that to be true or know it to be true, that there is some understanding?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I've heard rumors of that from various sources, but I don't have any first-hand knowledge of an actual agreement that was cut between anybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of speculation, of course, about an agreement to allow some human beings, for example, to be abducted for research in return for, let's say, technology.
		And John Lear alluded to all that and said that they, in essence, reneged on that aspect of what was supposed to be a deal.
		Of course, you'd never make that kind of thing public.
		If you had made a deal to shuffle off some of your citizens at random to guys who are going to do God knows what to them, chop them up, cut them up, whatever they do, you could never talk about that ever.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I find that kind of hard to believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then John has gone too far for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that right?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure he's listening.
		I'm sure he's listening.
		John knows he's gone too far for me.
		John's convinced that there are people living on, or some sort of beings living on Venus and some other local planets.
		That's right.
		And that drives me crazy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does it?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it absolutely does.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		And a bunch of the things he says.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's convinced there are artifacts on the moon, gigantic artifacts on the moon and Mars.
		And others have said that as well.
		Richard C. Hoagland and others have said there are things on the moon.
		In fact, you know what?
		There's a speculation that the President of the United States, George Bush, is about to make a speech in which he's going to say the United States is going to go back to the moon.
		There's going to be a shuttle mission to go back to the moon.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I heard that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I heard he was supposed to make some sort of announcement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we would do it presumably with a shuttle, which is really...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, really interesting.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		How are you going to get the shuttle?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't ask me.
		I have no idea, but that's what I'm hearing.
		and actually i've heard mr hoagland say it's possible i mean that you know if they use every Well, sure, but if you want to actually get on the moon, it's a different story.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You know, the orbiter wasn't designed to do that at all, and in fact, it needs to be replaced with something else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's getting pretty old.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Still, that's apparently what's going to be announced.
		I could turn out to be wrong, but I don't know of any other spacecraft that we have in current production that would get us to the moon.
		Do you?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, but, you know, we do still have a Saturn V sitting there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A Saturn V could do it.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was designed to do it with a longer module and everything.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It's sitting there in Florida just the thing off and launch it because they stopped the program right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You think it'd be all right?
		Not like old ammunition?
		I mean, it's pretty old now.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, for the most part, you know, it's metal and components.
		Just sit there with something you know that works.
		Don't do what the United States typically does and reinvent the wheel constantly.
		That got us to the moon.
		Many times it worked.
		Just update it with some modern materials, electronics, and components and use it since it's there and stop spending huge amounts of money doing nothing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What can you imagine our motivation would be for going back to the moon?
		I mean, we did go, most people believe.
		Actually, I don't think we even went.
		But I believe we went and we got rocks and we didn't get very many surprises.
		And so what could we do on the moon today that we didn't do then?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		That always seemed more sensible to me to make a small moon base as opposed to a space station.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, for various reasons.
		First of all, the space station is limited in what it can do.
		And I know a moon base is much more difficult to get to.
		It doesn't have to be large, but you can at least try and test out some technology on trying to manufacture fuel, do some small refining, see what you can get from the surrounding environment.
		There have been reports, I think, I don't know, was it the Cassini?
		Some radar mapping craft over the past four or five years detected that there were supposedly large frozen areas of water on the moon.
		However, they just went over that data again and had another arbitrator now are refuting some of that.
		You know, if you've got water, you've got energy and you've got the possibility for all kinds of stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we're back to a foggy area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There may not be enough water there to manufacture fuel, which would be a necessity.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that would make it uninhabitable if they're completely reversing themselves now.
		It's kind of strange to me.
		A lot of people believe, Bob, that there are things on the moon, large glass structures, incredible things that were hidden from the world when we went to the moon and have been hidden ever since.
		And that's the reason they say we haven't gone back.
		I believe John is one of the people who believes that.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he is.
		I'm not one of the people that believes that.
		You are not.
unidentified		No.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, absolutely not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then why go back, Bob?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Exploration.
		You know, why go to the top of the mountain?
		You know, it's a completely different world now than it was in the 60s.
		There's a lot more technology, so there's a lot more we can investigate there.
		You know, and the original reason to go to the moon was never to research the moon, you know, aside from beating the Russians there.
		The original intention was only to see the feasibility or to investigate the feasibility of making a small base there and launching a Mars mission from the moon.
		This was all about going to Mars.
		The moon was only supposed to be because it would be easier to get there from the moon, less gravity, so on and so forth.
		And that was just to be looked upon as a potential launching site for a Mars mission.
		So the interest was never in the moon.
		I mean, we pretty much knew it was just a rock up there anyway.
		The interest has always been in Mars, but Mars isn't that easy to get to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unless you had a moon base, and that would help.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, that would help.
		It's a shortcut, and you could store fuel there.
		If plans had gone how they should have, maybe we would have already been to Mars.
		But I think that's the frontier we should look at, is investigating that, or go to Europa.
		There's plenty of things in our immediate solar system that are potentially fascinating.
		And Europa has probably the best chance of life in our solar system.
		And even the hardcore skeptics at NASA pretty much agree there's a good chance there's something in the oceans there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But Bob, if we've got technology that can manipulate gravity, and damn, it was back in the early 90s when you knew that we had that.
		Here we are launching, whether it's a Saturn V or a shuttle or however we get back to limp back to the moon.
		And for what reason I'm not sure about, but whatever.
		We're using ancient buggy-like technology compared to what you know exists.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Absolutely.
		I don't care what spacecraft they've come up with.
		In my eyes, they still look like fireworks.
		And they've proven themselves to be that on occasion.
		But it is.
		It's archaic technology, and we do have something that operates differently.
		However, it has limited fuel, a limited lifespan, and we don't want to lose it.
		And as far as I knew at the time, we couldn't even come close to duplicating even the most basic parts of the device.
		So what are you left with?
		You're left with your own archaic method of transportation to other planets, and you can only investigate what's going on around you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, Rob, we have been unable to decipher the manner in which, or duplicate the manner in which gravity is manipulated by the devices on the craft that you saw.
		Obviously, we failed, or what?
		In other words, otherwise we'd be using this technology, so we failed?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, quite possibly.
		Now, again, I hesitate because I'm talking about my knowledge from the early 90s and late 80s.
		I don't know what's happened up till today.
		But as far as I knew back then, yeah, we failed.
		That's the bottom line.
		Do you think you can be duplicating that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think these craft, when tested, were taken outside the Earth's atmosphere?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do not?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, I know that for a fact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For a fact?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't.
unidentified		Well, why not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just whisper it in my ear.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I pretty much know that For a fact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why, out of curiosity?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		We're getting real close to one of the areas that I said that I purposely don't talk about so I know if anybody's been involved with a project which has to do with the craft and where it's gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		So this is why you're hearing my hesitation on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the next thing out of my mouth was going to be, why do you think if we thought or we have.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if the other crafts were operating.
		We know this one does.
		There's only one of them.
		So in other words, one of the kind of thing, would you risk taking this out of the Earth's gravitational pull and losing it in space?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a very good point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a very good point.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		This is their prized possession.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you believe we still have that safely wherever.
		By the way, do you think it's still up there?
		Or do you think it's been moved?
		And if so, where do you suppose?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I always thought that that was an odd place to put it.
		Because in the early days of the nuclear weapon development, some of the best places that they kept everything were in the South Pacific, like Kwajalan Island and things of that sort.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a good point.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You don't have any look-you-lose there.
		You have no hassles from anybody.
		You're in the middle of nowhere, and nobody can get there without you seeing them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What a tremendous point.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		That's where I would have put it.
		I wouldn't have built a secret base in the middle of Nevada, you know, outside of Las Vegas.
		And the only reason they moved the nuclear test site to Nevada was because it was just too expensive running supplies back and forth and all the personnel to the South Pacific.
		Well, you don't have that problem with the ET program because it's limited personnel, limited supplies, and, you know, go hide it in the middle of the ocean on an island like they did with everything else.
		So if I was going to put it somewhere, that's where it would be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think instead it ended up here in Nevada?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, because obviously there are going to be more people conceivably seeing what's going on.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		There's got to be a reason.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Somebody must have, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, Bob, they still drive up to the mailbox.
		People take videos.
		People take pictures.
		So then there's another great theory that you might want to comment on.
		That is that they want there to be a slow time release of information.
		They want rumors.
		They want talk about this subject for some reason that fits their agenda.
		Otherwise, put it in the South Pacific and, you know, nobody can.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, there may be some other shortcomings of having it out in the middle of the ocean that we're not thinking of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they need lots of supplies to deal with this thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they figured if it crashed, it's going to be deep down under the Pacific somewhere potentially, and we'd lose it that way.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		That's quite possible, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The desert is good for one thing, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just there, and it's fairly arid, and you'd definitely be coming down on land if you landed in a strange place.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Anywhere in Nevada, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So maybe your original point is actually the reason.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It could be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That they wouldn't want to risk losing the one model they've got.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then you figure they're still working on trying desperately to back-engineer this, or do you think by now they've done it?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It's been a long time.
		I would hope they've made some substantial progress in 10 years.
		But if you don't have access to exotic materials, what are you going to do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No fuel.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It's like I said before, being back in the 1800s.
		And if you want to make something out of plastic, all you can do is look at it and say, hey, this is really neat.
		But how do we make this stuff?
unidentified		Hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're at the top of the hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be right back with Bob Lazar and you.
unidentified		I think it's time to get ready to realize just what I have found.
		I have been on the hair of what I am.
		It's all clear to me now.
		My heart is on fire.
		It's time to help us shine.
		There's no way you could come to me.
		Baby, you'll see.
		But I'm too pretty, baby.
		Who's gonna love you through the night?
		But I'm too pretty, mama.
		Who's always day to me?
		Who's gonna love you, love you?
		Who's gonna love you?
		Who's gonna love you?
		Who's gonna love you, love you?
		Who's gonna love you?
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is Area Code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from East of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From West of the Rockies, call ART at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We love you, baby.
		And because we do, we're going to let you talk with Bob Lazar in a moment.
		If you'll stay right where you are, the forum, the questions are directly ahead.
unidentified		The Forum is a production of the Center for Autism and Related Disorders.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, tomorrow night, we'll give Dr. Greer what I now call the Lear test.
		We'll give him the Lear test.
		And I just can't let go of that.
		Ever since John said what he said on this program, I can't let go of it for some reason.
		Anyway, coming up in a moment, Bob Lazar is going to attempt to answer your question.
		So I guess what I would say is prepare yourself, Bob, because you never know what's going to come.
		All right.
		It's fun, Bob.
unidentified		Don't worry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's actually fun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's fun.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		What's the John Lear test, by the way?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, what's the John Lear test?
		It's really cool, to use your phrase.
		John took me to a briefing, in essence.
		He said, Art, imagine you're going to this briefing, and I'm going to lay the briefing out for you, showing you slides and putting things on the blackboard.
		And I'm going to explain to you everything the United States and world governments have ever done regarding the whole ET issue.
		And you tell me at the end of it if you would say, okay, make it all public.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Okay, yeah, this is what you had touched on before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, at the end of it, I said, no, I wouldn't make it all.
unidentified		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
unidentified		And I...
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Why would you say that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because some of the things that John said are so far beyond the pale that the religious implications, the social implications, the fact that I do believe people would go berserk.
		I mean, completely berserk.
		It would take down our government.
		It would disturb the world.
		it would disturb the force it would be Well, you've got to remember now that the test was given from the John Lear perspective.
		And remember that John believes a lot of things to be true that you don't.
		Right?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I am quite aware of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so to take the John Lear test, you've got to take what he says as gospel.
		In other words, here's some of the terrible things we've done, really terrible things.
		Would you make it public?
		And if you had to assume that everything he said there is correct, I guarantee you.
		I'll bet you you'd come up with the same answer.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, I come up with the same answer without that.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, I truly hope everything John Lear believes isn't true.
unidentified		Me too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, me too.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I have been proven wrong before about many other things, so who knows?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You ready?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, here we go.
		West of the Rockies, you're on there with John Lear.
		Hello.
unidentified		No, Bob Lazar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got John mind here.
		Bob Lazar.
		How you doing?
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		Hi, Bob.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Hey there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Howdy.
unidentified		Well, it's a pleasure to talk to both of you.
unidentified		It's been a while since I talked to you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, glad to have you back.
unidentified		Bob, I just missed meeting you by day one time, and I regret that.
unidentified		I was wondering if you, that was down in Nevada.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
unidentified		I was wondering if you knew about a material called starlight.
unidentified		It was supposedly created by a couple of scientists, but I've always had suspicions it was, you know, alien technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Starlight?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is this material, sir?
unidentified		Well, a physicist told me about this material.
		It's like two liquid plastics, and when you put it together, it forms an indestructible solid.
		A nuclear blast won't touch it.
		Nothing will destroy it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you heard of such a material, Bob?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm pretty skeptical about a claim like that.
unidentified		Well, it's not supposed to be classified, and it came from a pretty reliable source.
unidentified		And also, John wanted me to ask you about the orange crate in the crater Coppernicus.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		John wanted you to ask me about the orange crate?
unidentified		Right, the crate on the moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John who?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lear?
unidentified		John Lear, yes, that's correct.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay, I know what you're talking about.
		He showed me a picture one time, and there was a perfectly square object on a moon picture and said, well, what's this orange crate doing there?
		And we were arguing about some of the images from the moon and these grainy little things with a couple dots.
		And John was claiming, well, that's just the reflection from a giant glass dome over so-and-so.
		But anyway, he did have some pictures that I couldn't explain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, Bob, and some of what John says is pretty wild.
		I mean, there's no doubt about it.
		But on one hand, Bob, you're somebody who's actually seen alien craft.
		Most of us haven't.
		So to have seen what you've seen, are the things then John says really so crazy?
		Yes.
		Well, I mean, see, a lot of people would say, flying saucers, we got them, you've seen them, oh, come on.
unidentified		That's crazy.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I know, that's crazy.
		Maybe it makes me a hypocrite for saying so, but that's, look, I am the first one to admit that if somebody came forward to me with my identical story and laid everything in my lap, I'm not sure I'd buy it.
		So I can't expect anything else from anybody else.
		And in fact, I almost prefer people don't believe it because then I get hassled less about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Martin in San Rafael says, and I think this is accurate and why I love interviewing you.
		It says, Lazar continues to be the most credible witness of all, straightforward, direct, not self-serving.
		No books, tapes, no website, nothing to sell.
		He just describes what he saw reluctantly at that.
		He makes a believer of this skeptic.
		So in that way, you really do sell your story.
		I mean, you're so damn low profile about all of this, like you don't want it to.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not a business.
		I'm just relaying what happened to me at the time, and that's it.
		That's the end of the story.
		And where it's gone and why, you know, how all this stuff came about is beyond my scope of knowledge, and I don't profess to know anything that I haven't been exposed to.
		But I will stand on what I have seen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got that, but I mean, as incredulous as it sounds, why not believe other incredulous things?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if there are saucers here, if there were bodies recovered, if we actually have aliens, then certainly some of the stories about aliens could easily be true.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, and maybe so, but I'm spoiled.
		I had some things verified to me and had hands-on experience.
		I got to touch them.
		I got to see them.
		I got to analyze them and said, okay, this is real.
		Now, for the layman or researcher or whatever that hasn't, everything is in the same category to them.
		It's all conjecture.
		You know, yet I've had some things proven to me, and I hold on to those like an anchor.
		Okay, I know this is real, but I don't know about anything else.
		I don't know if Betty and Barney Hill were abducted, but they have a compelling story.
		I don't know if the Roswell crash occurred, but that's a compelling story.
		Some of the stories you hear are totally illogical and don't make sense.
		And to me, they fit in the category, you know, you try and maintain an open mind and remain scientific about it, but you have prejudices in either direction, you know, as most intelligent people do.
		And, you know, I don't believe everybody that says they were abducted was abducted.
		But they might have been.
		How would I know?
		It's just my own personal belief.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, of course not.
		I don't believe it all either, Bob.
		Or even, I might even go as far as say large chunks of it that I don't believe.
		But some of this I do believe is true.
		And based on what you saw and you know to be true, then it's not too hard to imagine that there was interaction.
		We might not know the exact parameters of that interaction, but there was interaction with aliens.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Chances are there was in some way, shape, or form over a period of time.
		By the way, on another note, I get so many emails about this.
		Apparently in some other show, and I just got three more recently.
		In some other show, you spoke to somebody, a female, that said, claimed that I took her out to Area 51 and showed her around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Does this ring a bell to you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember that.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		This is the most ridiculous story I've ever heard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that didn't happen either, huh?
unidentified		As if they allow visitors to top-secret security installations.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		That's absurd.
		Who would even claim something like that?
		Yeah, in either case, that's, you know, it's just another one of those knuckleheads that just likes to hear themselves talk for some reason.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Huh.
		Okay.
		As a matter of fact, I had an email from this person just yesterday, Bob.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, she imagines quite a relationship with you.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, yes, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not true, though.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line.
		You're on here with Bob Lazar.
		Yo-ho.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		I'm calling because I'm a physics student.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, speak up good and loud.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's better.
unidentified		I'm calling about the gravitational amplifier system.
		I'm interested in this because I'm a physics student, and I was thinking that kind of at the forefront of physics research now is kind of a push to detect gravitational waves, which is a tough thing to do, and probably ultimately discover the gravitational particle, the graviton.
		And I was thinking about this three-pole system that you described as very directional.
		And maybe a gravitational current is involved.
		I was wondering if that maybe hints at why we can't figure out what is going on there.
		Do you have any thoughts on that?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is more of the research I wanted to conduct while there.
		Well, I wanted to get down to the hardcore research in gravity and how the energy propagates by itself.
		And by the way, I don't believe there are gravitons.
		I don't believe there's particles involved.
		I don't believe it's even a wave-particle duality, you know, like light photons are.
		You know, I think this is...
		And exactly how it propagates is, at least I don't personally understand that.
		It almost seemed to propagate as microwaves did, since anytime inside the craft, the basic gravity wave was rooted anywhere from the reactor to the amplifiers, it always traveled inside tuned pipes.
		So again, that implies at a specific frequency you should have some sort of gravitational effect if it's just a basic carrier wave of some sort, but that doesn't appear to be true.
		So it's something more than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we know, don't we, that the microwave can be carried in like oblong tubes, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Waveguide?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right, exactly.
		waveguides.
		That's what connected the reactor to the skin of the craft and ultimately to the Right, but if it's just a basic wave, you know, you could just set up a high-frequency oscillator and then as you slowly increase the frequency, you get different effects.
		You get microwaves, you get, and it's all part of the electromagnetic spectrum, and you get X-rays and whatever, and you should just run into gravity at some point, but you don't.
		So there's something else there, but they were so concerned about the actual application of it, they weren't really concerned about the research into the basics of it, which probably if it would have been done that way when I was there, at least I think it would have given us a clue, at least a better clue, of how to use it and how to duplicate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But again, you think, Bob, don't you, that they're now still, if they haven't done it, they're certainly pursuing it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You wouldn't give up on something like that, would you?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Are you kidding?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Not a chance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not a chance.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure just tremendous amounts of money are being funneled into this.
		And I'm sure they continue to hand-pick specific people that they can think, anyway, are going to keep their mouths closed and be involved with it.
		But there was a frustration even when I got there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, I wonder what happened to the person that picked you.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Kohler, Kohler, anything else?
unidentified		Yeah, actually.
		I was wondering if Bob has it.
		I'm sorry, Mr. Lazar.
		I shouldn't have been mine.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Lazar is my dad.
unidentified		I was wondering if you had any thoughts as to the propagation speed of the wave.
		We know light travels at a certain speed, or at least we assume it's a constant speed.
		Do you think that gravity is different?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good, good question.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, excellent question.
		Because from all indications, the propagation is instantaneous.
		And I know that it upsets everything.
		But remember, gravity in itself distorts time and space.
		And every way we attempted to measure the propagation from the reactor base to the emitters themselves, there was no delay at all.
		And so I believe that I don't know if the wave is actually propagating instantly or the fact that it's a gravitational wave is distorting the time space around it and making it appear as it's an instantaneous propagation, but those are the results that we got.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bob, you said you actually measured no delay at all.
		How carefully was that measured?
		I mean, no delay at all is quite a statement to make.
		You could measure this.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		There was no delay at all.
		And we, again, envisioned other potential uses.
		You know, here's look at communication to Mars.
		It's still a flat 20 minutes between our little robot orbiters and things of that sort.
		You know, here you have the potential if, in fact, there is instantaneous propagation of gravitational waves, here's a fantastic communication device where there's no delay, where you can talk in real time at great distances.
		So obviously there's just tremendous implications of this technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even time travel.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It's possible.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Gravity distorts time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if the speed of gravity, which is not defined, is faster than light, then you certainly have time travel based on that alone.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, like they say, time travel is a lot more common than you think.
		Time travel to the future happens all the time.
		All you have to do is stand on a high mountain, go into a spacecraft, travel fast.
		You do slip nanoseconds into the future.
		Time travel backwards is debatable whether or not that's even possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're off on a tangent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller, any final thing.
unidentified		I guess there's one other thing.
		You notice you mentioned an element 115.
		I'm assuming that's atomic mass number.
		And I think that goes further than the periodic table.
		Is that true?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right, that's correct.
unidentified		So maybe that kind of insinuates that you're dealing with higher amplitude gravity waves.
unidentified		And just, I guess, more to start off with if you're going to amplify it?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, there's something unique about that element.
		just like there's something unique about the nuclear elements we use in reactors.
		But something apparently happens different there that doesn't So there is something very unique about the fuel and specifically what it is, you know, on an atomic scale.
		We were only just beginning to look into that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bob, I heard some rumors about some kind of speculating about or perhaps lab work going on, something surrounding element 115.
		Between when you told your story and now, sometime or another, I remember hearing about some legit science dabbling with the concept of 115 or something.
		I can't remember.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I believe it was the lab for heavy ion research in Darmstadt, Germany.
		And at the time, they were on the cutting edge of coming up with new elements.
		And they were shooting for producing element 115 at one point.
		And they were using a new technique.
		Instead of bombarding something with neutrons, they were just slamming nuclei together.
		And somehow it was fusing into heavier elements.
		But I don't think they reached it.
		And in fact, I don't know if it was the same lab, but somebody found out that there was false data.
		I mean, the last heavy element that was claimed, it might have been 113 or 131.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do we think the properties of this element would be, generally?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's hard to predict.
		I mean, we certainly observed some unique properties of it.
		It's incredibly heavy and incredibly dense.
		Aside from that, the way the reactor worked in the craft was like a small accelerator, and it constantly bombarded the 115, which transmuted and immediately decayed, and that's when it produced its gravitational pulses.
		And as a byproduct, it produced a tremendous amount of heat.
		And inside this one, listen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we're at the bottom of the hour.
		Hold on.
		This is really good stuff.
		Bob Lazar is my guest.
		But yeah, John Lear is on my mind.
		The test tomorrow night for Dr. Greer.
unidentified		The amaranth rains like a bell through the night And when she loved, loved her Takes to the sky like a bird is flying Who will be her lover?
		What a lovely man to take over.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		Take a ride.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To TunkwithArt Bell from east to the Rockies, call Toll 3-800-825-5033.
		From west to the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free-800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, for sure, fascinating stuff.
		Bob Lazar, man who's had hands-on with alien craft, hands-on with alien propulsion element 115.
		That's another story that he can't quite totally talk about, nor will John Lear.
		In a moment, we continue with Bob.
		Stay right where you are.
unidentified		Stay right where you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the mountains of New Mexico, directly to you and with you right now, here is Bob Lazar.
		Bob?
		You ready for more?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, these are pretty good periods.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you were in the middle of...
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You know, I was on a roll at the minute, and now I can't quite get it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you remember you said it was hitting element 115.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, how the reactor operated.
		I guess I drifted onto that.
		I mean, the 115 itself was bombarded, released, in some way, shape, or form, releases a pulse of a gravitational wave, and kind of as a byproduct, releases a tremendous amount of heat, and that heat is converted to electricity, which runs the craft.
		However, there's no wiring or any conventional connectors or controls or anything of that sort on the craft.
		But it's all incredibly fascinating, and to a scientist, it's a dream come true.
		So yeah, sure, in some respects, I regret the way things turned out.
		But I don't know, maybe eventually we'll all find out what's going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I I wonder.
		I really wonder, as the world grows short of oil and the wars are raging because of it, and we prepare to go back to the moon, maybe in the shuttle of all things.
		I don't know.
		It just seems like if all of this really is there, and yet I guess the answer is that you suggest we have, as of, well, the date you knew anyway, not been successful in the back engineering attempt, so we don't have it down yet, or if we do, for some reason we're not willing to begin to release it.
		I mean, you'd think they could do it through industry, you know, sort of sliding things slowly into industry as some development or something just to get it into the economy.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Possibly.
		And maybe that's already been done.
		But every time somebody points at something, you know, there is also conventional explanations for it.
		We really haven't seen anything incredibly amazing pop up.
		We see improvements over products here and there and a couple things, but there really hasn't been any quantum leaps in recent times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you may recall if you ever heard Colonel Corso's story before he passed on, that he suggested that's exactly how a number of things made it from the Roswell crash to modern industry.
		It's pretty interesting stuff.
		Wildcardline, you're on the air with Bob Lazar.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hi.
unidentified		Okay.
		Hi, Art.
		Hi, Bob.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Speak up good and loud, sir.
unidentified		Okay.
		This is Alan from Colorado, and I have three questions, so I hope you can bear with me.
		My first question is if Aldrich Ames of the CIA can go to jail for so many years because he revealed government secrets, how is it that Bob was able to pull this off?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bob, a pretty good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you'd been revealing secrets of the magnitude that we've been talking about tonight, well, of course, I can answer that.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, what would you jail me for?
		I know when somebody gives away secrets, satellite secrets or other technology secrets, and that information has to be brought out.
		So, okay, you're going to take me to court and say, okay, you released the information.
		What did he release?
		Oh, well, secret stuff.
		Well, what?
		You're not going to trick them into admitting what they're trying to keep secret.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and something of this magnitude.
		Exactly so.
		So I guess I would answer that, caller.
		I mean, after all, if they charged him with something, they would simply underscore everything he said.
		Next question.
unidentified		Okay, the next question is, are there not simpler ways to create gravitational propulsion effects, you know, like with scalar waves, possibly?
		I mean, we're talking element 115.
		This whole procedure seems so exotic and so advanced.
		Can we not work now?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		There have not been gravitational waves produced in any other method, and there are claims as such all over the place.
		And people say you can do it with these Mercury engines.
		I've heard scalar waves.
		I've seen all of that data.
		The bottom line is it's not real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Next.
unidentified		Okay, last question.
		T. Townsend Brown, John Searle, Victor Schauberger with his vortex technology, John Keel, Otis T. Carr, all these researchers, which this relates to the second question, and I think I know how you're going to answer it.
		How do you feel about what they've so-called contributed to gravitational propulsion technology?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Contributed where?
		Where is it?
		Show me one.
		Bring it down here.
		I'll even fly and see it.
		Every time I've wasted my time on that, looking at everybody that's claimed any of that stuff, it's never panned out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's like perpetual motion.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's plenty of claims.
		And, you know, people want, you know, are looking for funding to research this or do that.
		And, you know, for the most part, not for the most part, there is no device of any sort that can create a gravitational wave now.
		And go ahead and prove me wrong, other than what was at S4.
unidentified		Damn, you are such a reasonable person.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, but that's a fact.
		Please prove me wrong.
		I will come and check out what you're going to claim.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With you all the way.
		But you see, that's what makes your other claims so damn legit in my mind, just like that person who fastbasted me.
		Jeez, Louise, in every other way, you're so...
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You know, D. Doms and Brown, many others were brilliant people doing work, and I think a lot of the things they observed have other explanations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, just because something lifts off the ground does not make it gravity propulsion.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But gravity propulsion, I define as something that's acting directly against gravity, and I don't mean being lifted by electrostatic forces, something like that, something that's actually counteracting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your skepticism everywhere else just is so strange in light of what you say to the rest of us.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Look, I barely believe my own story.
		It happened to me.
		That's how big of a skeptic I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Lazar.
unidentified		Hello, Bob.
		Okay.
		It's nice speaking to both of you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And to you, sir.
		Where are you?
		Out of Curie.
		My name is Andy.
		Okay.
unidentified		Yes, for over 20 years, I've been within the research of exobiology.
		I don't want to mention any names, but my ex-father-in-law, who was with the CIA at Groom Lake before he died of Agent Orange, he asked me if there's anything I would like to know about Area 51.
		And I said, yes.
		Is the government cover-ups of UFOs and ETs true?
		He said, yes, because he stood guard several feet away within one of the hangar bays, guarding ETs from the UFO that was being brought from one place to another.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But this person, your dad has passed on.
unidentified		Yes, he passed away.
		See, he was all fed up with the government for what they were doing to him because he spent so much time in the service and all that, you know, with them that they wouldn't do any more for him.
		And so he just said to heck with it.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they have a pretty bad record of taking care of their own people.
unidentified		Right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But yeah, you find a lot of people as they come close to the end of their lives.
		Look what happened with the JFK thing.
		Just if enough time goes by, people become more comfortable releasing what they know.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's why I said there've got to be other Bob Lazars out there, and there surely are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you take the very moral position that you would rather see them not come back for their own sakes than come back and verify your story.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		If you're listening, don't listen to art.
		Don't say it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Bob Lazar.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		This is Bob in Beaverton listening to KEX.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I want to know, Bob, have you ever heard of the work of Jerry Gallimore, who, under certain conditions, could see gravity?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, never heard that before.
unidentified		Okay, the way he did it was doing the old high school science class project, just lay a bar magnet on a table and put the paper on it and sprinkle the iron filings on it.
unidentified		So you can see the magnetic lines of force.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		But Jerry was a Native American and something of a shaman.
unidentified		And around the center point of that magnet, he could see a halo of energy that was gravity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, and here is where the metaphysical meets science.
		Well, regardless, he thought that.
		So do you ever wonder about that at all, Bob?
		I mean, the entire metaphysical world, maybe it's all hoo-eye, and maybe it's another one where you can say, prove it to me first.
		But boy, I'll tell you, there's some good stories out there.
		I hear them all the time about things that we simply really don't understand regarding the afterlife.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure that that is true.
		You know, to be so bold to say that, boy, we have science handled and we pretty much know what's going on and everything is cut and dry.
		And, you know, that is so far from the truth.
		We are even at the tip of the iceberg as far as knowledge about everything around us.
		And, you know, talk about the metaphysical stuff.
		We really have no idea what's going on.
		And a lot of these things that people think are silly, you know, and things that I may laugh at may actually turn out to be true.
		So it's important to keep an open mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's going to be a place, Bob, where the metaphysical or something in the metaphysical square on meets science.
		And science suddenly will say, oh my God, there is another side.
		Or oh my God, we really now suddenly have proof to some degree of a soul, some way to prove something in the metaphysical.
		Who knows what it might turn out to be, but somewhere science and the metaphysical will suddenly meet, I predict it.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Bob Lazar.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hi, this is Ken in Salt Lake, and I'm just loving your program.
		You guys are both wonderful.
		Thank you.
		I have an observation and a question.
		The observation is in Encarta, in Microsoft Encarta in the encyclopedia, there's a reference about Element 115.
		If you go into 1976, look under physics, 1976, it talks about element 115 as being present in a meteorite that came into the Earth's atmosphere.
		and also the heavier elements...
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Wait, wait, wait.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where was this again?
unidentified		In Encarta, which is the, I guess that's the, what is it, the encyclopedia that you get for your computer from Microsoft.
		Really?
		And at Microsoft and Carter, and you go to 1976, we're under 50.
		115, and they were able to measure it and deduce that it had element 115 in it.
		And also, the other reference is for 116 through about 124 at the end of the article.
		It says they were measured in mica schist that was in Africa.
		So in mica schist, which is, I guess, a rock formation, there's trace when they bombard it with a VandiGraaff generator at high energy, gives off a pattern of atomic, some signature that shows that those elements were there.
		The logic is there, they talk about it.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Wow, that's really interesting.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Now, this isn't Encarta, we're not talking about something that's on the Internet.
unidentified		We're talking about Encarta that you'd buy for your computer, which is an encyclopedia from Microsoft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right on Microsoft, right?
unidentified		Microsoft software program used.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		And what did you look up to find this?
unidentified		Under Physics, 1976.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, great.
unidentified		At the bottom of the article, it's in there, the reference.
unidentified		Okay, the other question I have, the only question I have...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Out there, if somebody would be so kind as do the research, email it to me, I'll have it by tomorrow night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Continue, sir.
unidentified		Okay, let's see.
		One other question.
		That is, I heard the rumor that somebody had tried to open one of the reactors somewhere on the facility there.
		Somebody had made that suggestion and that there was an atomic explosion underground.
		Do you know anything about that?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I heard that, and I heard that officially, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that was one of the things that was told to me.
		In fact, that was one of the reasons why I worked there, because I was allegedly replacing one of these people.
		So the previous Bob Lazar got a little too close to what was going on, apparently.
		And from what I recall from the story, I believe it was in March, and I don't remember the date, but it was announced as a nuclear test.
		And there is a corresponding date for that test.
		And what they have listed as the test is completely false information.
		That was the detonation of the reactor at the test site.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		the detonation exploded with the force of using they announced it as a A low-yield test.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You know, remember, they used To do that in Las Vegas all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, I used to announce it, you know, get off high buildings, that kind of stuff.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right, they'd always tell you in advance.
		But anyway, that data is on their site.
		Not about what it was, but that date, and I don't remember it when March.
		I'm sure George Knepper, one of those guys that takes it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know anything about the nature of the explosion?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know it was the intention was, well, the frustration was with the reactor at that point.
		And for whatever reason, somebody had the bright idea.
		Well, let's try and open it while it's operating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Extra smart guys working on this problem.
		So they took this, they took one of the prototype, not the prototype reactors, one of the reactors from one of the other craft.
		And by the way, they all looked exactly the same, not the craft, but the reactors.
		And they took it to the nuclear test site, and it was done remotely underground.
		And the people monitoring it, apparently, were too close.
		And they didn't realize the explosion was going to be that large, and it did.
		And again, this isn't something I witnessed.
		This is something I was told, but it was something I was told while I was out at the site.
		So it just has another notch of authenticity because I heard it out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many people allegedly lost their lives in this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't recall.
		It wasn't like there were a lot of people.
		There were two or three people from what seems to stick in my mind, but I can't say that for sure.
		I don't recall.
		I did hear that exact story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll be doggone.
		I have never heard any of that.
		All right.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Bob Lazar.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes.
		My name is Ben.
		I'm just outside of Boston.
		Okay.
		And I've got a question going back to Bob's comments about running his car on hydrogen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, fire away.
unidentified		Okay.
		Over the last bunch of years, Nexus magazine has run at least a couple of articles about running one's car on hydrogen using electrolysis, in other words, generating the hydrogen on board, on demand.
		And I just some people I've spoken to about it say it's a ridiculous idea that it's impossible, that it would take really more energy.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It's not happening.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You can't crack water that fast.
unidentified		Oh, really?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you can't.
unidentified		Because there's a guy.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Unless you're carrying a nuclear power plant behind you.
		You just can't.
		Water doesn't come apart that fast.
		And there are flashways.
		In fact, I met a physicist from Sandia Labs here and was talking to him, and they have this neat device that kind of works on a plasma pulse and cracks water at much higher volume than electrolysis.
		In fact, the guy emailed me recently that has something that does that with hydrocarbons.
		But as far as driving a car and having and producing hydrogen by electrolysis from water at a volume great enough to keep the car running, it's never going to happen.
unidentified		So you are required really to generate the hydrogen at some other time, some other place, and then pipe it into the car and store it.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Our product is a small hydrogen generator, kind of like a dishwasher.
		Sits in your garage, solar panels, and it takes two to three days to fill the tanks because it takes a lot of energy and it takes a long time to do it.
		Now there are faster ways, but they consume more power.
		Well, some don't.
		But are more complicated, don't use water, so on and so forth.
		Ours is low-cost, just uses, connects to the water line, uses solar panels, and slowly cranks out hydrogen.
		And you can, over a period of two to three days, fill the tanks in your car, and then you can drive 700 miles.
		Ideally, you'd have several sets of tanks and just fill them and whatnot.
		But it's the only way to do it.
		I've been playing with hydrogen fuel systems since the late 70s.
		And you just can't make it fast enough.
unidentified		Caller, a few seconds.
unidentified		Well, I'm all set.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're happy?
		All right, then I'll.
		Thank you, thank you, and take care.
		And I'm afraid that time is slipping by.
		No, it has slipped by, and the end of the program is here.
		So, hey, Bob, man, what a great program.
		Again, every time you come on, it's a great program.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Hey, always great to talk to you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And maybe next time you're here, I'll give you the Lear test.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, listen, thanks for being here, huh?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Hey, thank you.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Thanks again, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care and good night.
		Thanks.
		He's a totally excellent interviewer.
		Anytime you talk to him, Bob Lazar from the high desert in the middle of the night.
		I'm Art Bell.
		See you tomorrow night.

▲