Dr. Simeon Hein and Ramon Lopez explore solar mysteries, like the November 4th X28 flare—nearly double the previous record—while Lopez warns of potential radiation threats to satellites, even suggesting lunar dirt as Mars mission shielding. Hein dismisses alien theories for complex crop circles, citing human-made formations with subtle energy effects, such as Kansas’ 2,000-volt electrostatic anomalies, but debates Michael Glickman’s claim that sacred geometry proves non-human origins. Both agree unexplained phenomena demand open-minded research, blending solar physics and energy anomalies to challenge conventional skepticism. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever in all the world's time zones you may reside.
This is Coast to Post AM Weekend.
I'm Mark Bell.
Great to be here.
And as we began the last program, I'm going to begin this one as well.
We have a mystery sound, and we would like your help to find it somewhere.
Someone out there knows what this sound is.
Let me read you what my friend Jim, who recorded this, wrote.
Attached is a recording of the 40-meter mystery noise recorded 11-8-2003 at 11.40 a.m. on 7209 MHz Lower Sideband using a 2.4 kHz filter.
The recording was made with my FT1000MP Mark V with no noise blanking, DSP, or any processing.
I am intentionally not compressing the recording so as not to introduce any artifacts.
Using Cooletta Pro, I was able to confirm that the pulse rate is exactly 100 hertz.
At my location, the signal bandwidth appears to be 100 kilohertz.
I receive it from approximately 7150 to 7250.
This is a strange noise on the 40-meter hand band, and we are bound and determined to find out where this noise comes from.
If you think you have a hint, if you're in on some military project or something that's doing this, and would like to spill zabines, then I'm going to give you an opportunity to spill them directly to he who did the recording, although it's annoying all of us.
And we are curious, I must admit.
So I'm going to give Jim's email address with his permission at the end of this, and you can send your responses directly to him.
I want you to listen very carefully to the noise.
You'll hear the receiver background.
Then you will hear this incredible noise that comes up.
It's 100 kilohertz wide, and it's a total mystery.
And then boom, like somebody threw a switch, it's gone.
If you have a hint or know what that noise is, I would appreciate a response at the following email address.
KI.
That's the way he'd say.
K-I-6GU at pacbell.net.
That's K-I-6GU at pacbell.net.
And we would all appreciate any information you might be willing to spill about that strange noise in a place where it ought not be.
Once again, that email address is ki6gu at pacbell.net.
Now, I received the following from Whitley Strieber about an hour before airtime.
Evidence past climate change happened in hours.
Now, this will be up on Whitley's site by now or shortly.
Discovery of a 5,200-year-old soft-bodied plant frozen in glacial ice in Peru reveals evidence of a massive and long-lasting climate change that took place in hours.
In order for the plant to have been quick-frozen rather than killed by frost, it must have been covered by a massive snowfall that took place over just a few hours.
Since then, the plant has remained frozen and has not yet been thawed.
Meaning, once this snowfall took place, no melt occurred for over 5,000 years.
Scientists are working to understand the mechanism behind what is being called an astounding finding.
Historical data indicates there was a sudden worldwide climate event about 5,200 years ago, but until this finding, it had not been realized that, at least in some areas of the world, it brought a total transformation of whatever climate was there, one to grow green things, right, from temperate to freezing in perhaps as little as a few days, and that change became permanent.
If such an event were to occur again, it would cause, without question, worldwide chaos and deaths, maybe in the billions, possibly the collapse of civilization.
Scientists are urgently seeking answers in the ice fields of the Peruvian highlands.
And you'll find that posted up on Unknown Country anytime now.
Now, I'm about to introduce Ramon Lopez, Professor Lopez, actually, who is a C-sharp Cook Distinguished Professor in the Department of Physics, University of Texas El Paso, received his B.S. in Physics in 1980 from the University of Illinois, his MS and PhD in space physics, in 1982 and 1986, respectively, from Rice University.
His current research focuses on dynamics of space, the space environment, and comparisons between global computer simulations of the magnetosphere and observations.
He's authored and co-authored 68 scientific publications, 17 non-scientific publications, including the popular science book Storms From the Sun, to be released May 14, 2002 by the Joseph Henry Press.
He is a fellow of the American Physical Society, a member of the Committee on Undergraduate Science Education of the National Research Council, has served as the chair or member on several committees of the American Geophysical Union and the American Physical Society.
From 1994 through 99, was director of education and outreach programs of the American Physical Society.
Dr. Lopez is active in science education reform both locally and nationally, has served as an education consultant for a number of school districts around the country, state education agencies in California, Maryland, North Carolina, Texas, and for organizations including Discovery Communications Inc., the National Science Resources Center, and various government agencies.
I mentioned to you briefly before the program, I've been a ham operator licensed since, I don't know, 58 or so, a long time.
And I have watched sun cycles come and go, and I've watched them on a daily basis.
I look at all the charts, the X-rays, the proton flux, all the rest of it, every day.
And so I've watched the behavior of our sun for all those years daily.
That doesn't make me an expert.
It still makes me an amateur.
But I have never, in all my life, seen any behavior from our sun that rivals what just happened in the last couple of weeks.
What's up?
unidentified
Well, hard to say, but it has been pretty spectacular.
And you're right.
There's nothing really to rival that last flare that we had on November 4th.
I mean, that's the largest explosion that has been recorded on the sun by modern scientific instruments.
It's hard to say whether it's the largest solar flare in recorded history, because in 1859 there was an enormous solar flare that caused a huge magnetic storm on Earth.
It was the first documented case of real space weather.
And in fact, the magnetic storm produced by the coronal mass ejection from the flare knocked out telegraph communications in Europe and North America for the better part of a week.
Okay, I'm hearing some sort of behind-the-scenes words that there are observations going on now of gigantic, there were explosions on the far side of the sun, and they're able to observe this only by apparently looking at the CME as it ejects beyond the rim of the sun, but they're observing explosions.
Does that surprise you?
unidentified
No, it doesn't surprise me at all.
And in fact, I looked at the data myself, and yeah, there are very large explosions going off on the far side of the sun.
It is most likely that same active sunspot region, region 486, that blasted us a couple of weeks ago.
And that one may come back around.
The sun has a rotation period of about 27 days.
So in a couple of weeks, we may see it again, and we may be in for some more magnetic storms.
Yeah, I just read an article last night from the New Scientist that indicates that over the last 1,150 years, and they found this out by measuring the amount of beryllium-10 that they found in ice core samples, that for the last 1,150 years, the solar activity in general has been very, very low.
I mean, it's not like this is just sort of a repeat cycle of something that's even common in the last 1,150 years.
The sun just has not, in that period of time, according to this beryllium-10 thing, the sun is really misbehaving at the moment, I mean, compared to what we know about the past.
unidentified
It's entirely possible.
I haven't seen this report, but this idea of looking for beryllium, that's a proxy for solar magnetic activity because that's being produced by cosmic rays, and the amount of cosmic rays that hit the Earth is impacted by the solar magnetic activity and the solar wind magnetic field.
Part of my pleasure was sort of laughing at some of this stuff.
I mean, it's kind of cool to have people talking about space weather and magnetospheres and such in science fiction movies, but unfortunately they got the science all wrong.
If a magnetic field is pointing southward in the solar wind, then it can interconnect with Earth's northward magnetic field and you can transfer energy.
And that's really, it's this transfer of energy.
It's sort of like a big electric dynamo out in space.
That's what drives currents in Earth's upper atmosphere.
That's what produces the aurora.
It's an indirect effect.
And if you have a monster blast from the sun, then you will significantly compress the Earth's magnetic field and you could, if the cloud's magnetic field was pointing the right way, have a big storm.
And this is exactly what happened in 1859.
The aurora was seen over Havana, Cuba, and Galveston, Texas, and off the coast of Nicaragua, and places where you never see the aurora.
And it really scared the bejesus out of people who didn't like this.
And it knocked out the most advanced technology that humans had at the time.
It knocked out the telegraph.
Made it really unusable for the better part of a week.
So now people back in 1859 were not so dependent on electromagnetism and the technology of harnessing electricity and magnetism.
We are critically dependent on it now.
If we had one of these monster magnetic storms, we could end up losing a lot of spacecraft, which represents a significant part of the communications infrastructure.
I think it was SpaceNet 4, and gosh, all the ATMs went down.
unidentified
Yeah, that was Galaxy 4.
Galaxy 4.
May of 1998.
Yeah, it was carrying somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of the pager traffic.
It's carrying all the NPR feeds.
I mean, anybody who works with an NPR station remembers that day, the day that they lost their feed and they had all this dead air time they had to fill.
Now, let me hit you with a scenario and see what you say.
The Earth gets hit with a large event.
The magnetic field becomes compressed.
But instead of just one large event, we get peppered with one after another after another large event that keeps hitting the Earth's magnetic field, battering it.
What are the possibilities?
Have you ever considered that?
unidentified
Well, you could just have a very strong storminess for a very long time.
And again, that's more or less what happened in 1859.
That's why it was a whole week that the telegraph was having severe difficulties.
And if we had that kind of thing today, you would just have ongoing magnetic storms, and radiation levels in space would climb to very high levels.
professor hold it right there and You'll have to excuse me, Professor.
I almost missed a commercial break, and those Los Angeles people, you just know they'd get just so upset when I missed breaks.
There you are.
So we did lose a couple of, or I guess a couple Japanese satellites had a problem.
I thought most of them had been hardened against this sort of thing.
unidentified
Well, many spacecraft have been hardened, and engineers are starting to learn.
But it's always hard to tell, you know, how much design do you put in to the spacecraft?
Because protecting against these kinds of things is just an expensive property, especially when you're talking about designing specialty computer chips.
So what I heard was that one Japanese satellite went into what's called safe mode.
It was having a problem.
It shut itself down.
And then there was another one that they lost communications with.
They're not really sure what happened, and they don't know if they're going to be able to talk to it again.
With respect to the core, again, the movie, if we had no magnetic field on Earth, what would these storms do then?
unidentified
Well, if we had no magnetic field on Earth, actually, you know, the monster solar eruptions would not cause too much of a disturbance here on Earth.
It's kind of the Earth's magnetic field extends pretty far out into space, and so that makes the Earth's magnetosphere a much larger obstacle to catch the energy from these big clouds.
But if we didn't have a magnetic field, we'd have far, far more serious problems.
Cosmic ray flux here on the Earth would be much higher than it is now.
Cancer rates would be a lot higher if we didn't have a magnetic field.
And there's some question as to whether we'd even have an atmosphere.
Because to what extent would the solar wind have, as the solar wind is hitting the Earth's atmosphere directly over billions of years, how much of it would it have taken off the surface of the Earth?
And that probably would happen to a large part of Mars' atmosphere.
I mean, Mars is also smaller, so it didn't have as much gravity as the Earth to hold on to its atmosphere.
But certainly erosion by the solar wind contributed to the loss of the Martian atmosphere.
nothing much happened except that the radiation level will increase on on the surface of mars but if man were walking on the surface of mars He'd be in how much trouble?
Yeah, you're not going to fall over dead walking on the surface of Mars just because of one solar flare, but you're going to get a significant dose of radiation.
And in fact, that's a serious, serious problem.
It's not only just walking on the surface of Mars where there's very little atmosphere and essentially no magnetic field to protect you, but it's also just a trip from Earth to Mars and back.
You're exposed to galactic cosmic rays, and you're exposed to high-energy particles generated from the sun, and you're exposed to high-energy particles generated by shock waves from these clouds that go exploding through the solar wind.
Well, yes, serious enough that it would actually prevent humans from safely going to Mars?
unidentified
It would if you didn't take care of it.
I mean, you have to have a storm shelter.
You have to have some place where you can go where there's a lot of material between you and the radiation, so the radiation can be stopped in that material.
I read a recent science article that indicated that contrary to what was believed earlier, I guess our sun is considered to be a fairly stable sun as suns go.
And there was some recent evidence that even stable suns seem to occasionally go berserk for reasons unknown and not necessarily supernova, but do something so disagreeable that it could virtually sterilize planets like ours in their immediate vicinity.
unidentified
There might be stars that do things like that, but I don't think that those are sun-like stars.
People have been observing sun-like stars for the past 30, 40 years, and yeah, they do sometimes do strange things.
And we know, for example, that other stars have magnetic activity cycles, like our sun.
And sometimes they turn on and sometimes they turn off.
And our sun also exhibits that kind of behavior.
So the sun could do things that could affect our technology.
But remember, the sun's been around for billions of years, and there's no evidence anywhere in the geological record that it has ever done anything that would have that kind of an impact on the world.
And I'm sure it'll be around for billions of years yet to come.
And our very own Earth has been around a very long time.
Contrary, though, we haven't been around that long.
unidentified
That's true.
But we can look back to the geologic records, and we don't see any evidence of that kind of dramatic change.
But nonetheless, the sun can have changes.
And these massive sunspots during a time when it's supposed to be solar minimum is a good example of that.
And actually, it is kind of interesting because you've got to wonder what exactly is going on with the sun because the solar cycle does seem to have been intensifying over the past hundred years.
There's evidence that the solar wind magnetic field has been getting stronger, in fact doubling over the past 100 years.
And maybe this kind of activity at what we normally call solar minimum is just part of this a little bit more magnetically active sun.
And that has direct implications for our technology, because we depend on electricity and magnetism For everything.
And there are many people who believe that comets are to some degree responsible, and there are stories going around that comets are causing this disturbance on the sun.
And in fact, if your viewers go to the SOHO website to see images of the sun, they can get pictures.
You know, they've got some movies of comets going and crashing.
Maybe not actually hitting the sun, but coming close enough that they vaporize.
So they go around the sun.
don't come back the other side.
Okay, but they wouldn't be the causative agent of these monstrous sunspots and This is something that the sun's dynamics and nothing in the solar system is going to affect that.
But it does point out the need for prediction and knowing something about what space weather is doing and being able to warn satellite operators and power grid operators.
I think that's why we didn't see more bad effects in this last round of activity because they got warned, yeah.
But you know what's very interesting is right at the time when all of this activity was going on, there was a hearing in the House of Representatives to review funding for the Space Environment Center, the place in Boulder, Colorado that does space weather prediction.
We can't look at the other side of the sun for the most part, right?
Right.
Should we be able to?
In other words, prediction would certainly improve incredibly.
The way I understand it, we've got a satellite out about a million miles from Earth, between Earth and the Sun, so that we can look at what's actively going on, at what's pointed toward Earth.
What do you think of the concept of getting a satellite about as far away from the Sun over on the other side that could relay information about then just think, Professor, what that would do for forecasting?
unidentified
It's a great idea.
And in fact, what we really need is like several of them stationed in Earth orbit around the Sun so that we can develop stereo pictures of the Sun.
And there is actually an idea for a mission called STEREO that's supposed to fly sometime in the next decade or so that we'll put one satellite ahead of the Earth and one satellite behind the Earth in the Earth orbit so that we can get a stereo view, at least on this side of the Sun.
Putting them on the other side of the Sun, that presents more of a challenge and be a lot more expensive.
But oh, absolutely.
If we could do that, then we could have great prediction.
I mean, after all, we can ship $87 billion or whatever it is over to Iraq to rebuild that country and so forth and so on.
So why aren't we spending money, you know, to look at our own very important environment?
You said it yourself.
I mean, we're filled with chips from end to end.
They mean everything now in this country.
And if we were to get hit really hard without warning, oh, that would be expensive, Professor.
Very expensive.
unidentified
It could be really bad.
And so actually, the sun did us a favor with these storms, you know, a couple of weeks ago because those storms hit just at the time that Congress was talking about, should we zero out the Space Environment Center.
You almost might call it a shot across the bowel, huh?
unidentified
Exactly.
It was perfectly timed, and I'm glad to say that the session went very well in the House.
It was chaired by Vern Ehlers, who's a physicist, by the way, one of two physicists in the Congress.
And I'm very hopeful that in conference, the Senate and the House will come together and say, we cannot afford not to have space weather prediction.
Very good.
And your listeners, if you guys want to call your congressman or senator and tell them that we need to have space weather prediction and we need the Space Environment Center, do it.
I mean, for example, right now, sunspot number 486, let's assume the worst and that it's growing and growing and growing.
And if we had a satellite on the other side of the sun, we'd be able to say, hey, everybody, tinfoil halftime or whatever, because here she comes.
unidentified
Yeah, and it'll be interesting to see in a week when it comes around the limb of the sun, if it's still there and if it's still as monstrous as it was before.
Now, Professor, another interesting thing happened.
As I say, I watch on a daily basis, and holy mackerel, when those gigantic spots finally rotated away on the other side of the sun, the charts dropped like a rock.
I mean, I never saw it.
It was like, you know, the patient just died, and it was way down just flat in the B area.
Just amazing, actually, how quiet it suddenly got, and now it's like the giant quiet before the storm.
unidentified
Exactly.
You see, there's storming going on, but as you say, it's on the other side of the sun, and we know that stuff is blowing off in the other direction.
We have to wait to see what happens in a couple of weeks.
Is it unusual, Professor, when you take the sun as a whole, that these monstrous spots would congregate kind of in one area and then be so quiescent on the other side?
Isn't that strange?
unidentified
I'm actually not sure how strange that is, because you get all kinds of behavior from the sun.
And there are plenty of times I've seen that one, you know, the side that's facing us doesn't have any sunspots, but there seems to be magnetic activity on the other side.
But the difference is so huge, if they're as big as they were when they were facing us, that does seem a little bit odd to me.
But not my field exactly, so I can't say how many other times people have seen that kind of behavior.
A very large fusion reaction where hydrogen, basically protons for the most part, are being smashed together because the temperatures are so high and they're moving so quick they can overcome the electrical repulsion.
And they can get close enough where the nuclear force can take over and then fuse them into helium nuclei.
And when that happens, the product weighs less than what went into the reaction.
And the extra mass, the missing mass, appears as energy.
And the Sun, I've heard, is much hotter on the outside than it is down near the core.
Is that true or false?
unidentified
That is false.
The core is hotter than the atmosphere of the Sun, but the atmosphere is a couple of million degrees.
The visible surface is only 6,000 degrees in Celsius, Kelvin, actually, degrees Kelvin, so 12,000 degrees Fahrenheit, roughly.
So the atmosphere is much hotter than the surface, but the core is still hotter than the atmosphere.
Anybody have any idea by how much?
Yeah, actually, I don't remember the number for exactly the temperature of the core.
We've got a surprisingly good idea of the overall basic structure of the sun.
The sun is always quivering like a big bowl of jello, and we can make observations of that shaking and use it to probe the inside of the sun in the same way that we use earthquakes to probe the inside of the earth because of the sound waves traveling through the earth.
And so there's a field called helioseismology, the seismology of the sun, and they've got pretty good evidence of the basic structure of the sun.
Well, okay, yeah, it used to be as right, because I guess we just need more instruments, different instruments.
unidentified
Well, the thing is that the flare on November 4th did actually saturate the detectors, and they had to try to figure it out from other means, just really how big it was.
And you're correct, they've settled on X28.
The way that they classify flares is by how much power there is, how many watts per square meter in a certain range of X-ray wavelengths, from 1 to 8 angstroms.
Yes.
That window, just how much power in that little window is there.
Why did they presume that an X20, let's say, would be the biggest amount of energy release they would ever see from the sun?
Because obviously you've got to have, you know, you're going to set up your scale as, well, there's the biggest thing that could ever happen, but whoops, something bigger happened.
unidentified
Well, they hadn't actually set an upper limit to the scale.
What they had set is an upper limit to the detectors.
And figuring that, well, we hadn't seen anything bigger than this, and so we'll probably not.
Is there any way to explain the dynamics that causes the sunspot or the hole itself?
unidentified
Yeah, people have done a lot of work with trying to understand the nature of sunspots.
And it has to do with the differential rotation of the sun.
The sun does not rotate with the same speed or same angular speed at all latitudes.
So some latitudes run faster than others, and that twists up the solar magnetic field.
And that twist represents stored energy.
Any kind of twisted magnetic field, just like a twisted rubber band, represents stored energy.
And so sometimes these twisted bundles of magnetic field become actually buoyant and float up and pop through the surface of the sun, pushing a little bit of the solar gases out of the way at the surface, making that region a little bit cooler.
And because it's cooler, it looks darker, and that's the sunspot.
And if you've seen some of them that, for example, have appeared in England, there are certain things that anybody knows.
One, they weren't made by men.
There's no question about it.
They couldn't have been made by men.
There's no tracks.
There's no arrests.
There are signs.
Question mark?
There's something.
Crop circles are something.
We don't know what they are, but they certainly are squarely in the center of we don't know where they came from, what they mean, or who put them there.
And that's what we're going to discuss tonight with Simeon Hine.
Dr. Simeon Hine is the director of the Institute for Resonance.
This is a nonprofit in Boulder, Colorado devoted to the study of subtle energy sciences, including remote viewing, crop circles, and related subjects.
Dr. Hine has a PhD in sociology, has previously taught research methodology at Washington State University.
He first learned remote viewing in 1996 and subsequently became involved in crop circle research.
He is the author of Opening Minds, A Journey of Extraordinary Encounters.
Crop Circles, Opening Minds, is one of the first books to argue that man-made crop circles can create the same anomalous energy effects as naturally formed circles.
Wow, there is something to contemplate.
Opening Minds will also document how crop circles are related to remote viewing and other subtle energy phenomena.
Having witnessed the formation of large crop circles made by expert crop circle making teams in England, Dr. Hine learned of the extraordinary phenomena including telepathic experiences, balls of light, UFO sightings that frequently surround man-made crop circles.
He's made experimental circles here and in the UK so as to test whether the circles' anomalous effects can be replicated in those formations made by ordinary people.
Dr. Hine now believes that all crop circles, regardless of their origin, create magical effects, his word, magical effects, by virtue of their shape and the subtle interaction between humans, plants, and sacred geometry.
In addition to assisting with Institute for Resonance Crop Circle Tours, he continues to teach remote viewing in Boulder and in Japan.
Subtle energy phenomena are a whole range of phenomena that relate to biological organisms and life energies that really were never really addressed by mechanistic physics that were taught about in school.
Some people estimate that they're ten times weaker than the Earth's magnetic field.
So we've been talking about solar flares.
I think they're very subtle and very weak.
In fact, sometimes they're referred to as ultra-weak forces or non-Maxwellian forces.
They're very weak, but if you set up the proper equipment, like with random number generators and things like that, you can actually measure these forces.
In fact, you were getting into this discussion last night with Dr. Frank.
Yeah, you know, I might have taken that view myself, you know, before I started studying it, because like you, I read New Scientist magazine, and I kind of have a hard-headed approach to this.
But if you look at the statistical data, there's no doubt that these phenomena are real.
Well, let's just take, in general, to start out with, all of the psychic research that's been done over the last 100 years.
When you put all these studies together, there's a type of research that combines statistical studies together, and you can kind of look at the effects over many different studies and get a large sample size.
And sometimes the odds that you're getting these results are like in the trillions to one.
And that really, by any standard, that's like the gold standard in science.
unidentified
If you get odds that are that high, that's called statistical significance.
Yeah, well, with the random number generator, they found that certain global events affect their random number generator.
And in the experiments they did, where people would sit at home in front of their PCs and try to affect a random number generator, you know, after the cumulative results after about, I believe, about eight years or so.
If you look at the graph, I mean, there are results.
There is no doubt.
Now, this may challenge our idea about reality that you can affect a device sitting a thousand miles away.
I know.
But this is the nature of science.
Science doesn't mean that it necessarily has to fit in with your belief system that you learned in school.
It just means you have to look at the data and have an open mind and say, look, what does this mean?
I think if you look at the data from this research, when they did their research for the remote viewing program, when Jessica Utz did the study for the CIA, she asked, did they get good results?
All right, Simeon, when I spoke to the people who were actually running the program at Princeton, and be assured I did at a very high level, what I detected from them, and maybe you can help me explain this, is a great disinterest in having any publicity about the findings at Princeton.
I mean, they just didn't want to really talk about this publicly at all.
I agree with you completely, and this is why I do this type of research with my colleagues at the Institute for Resonance, because I came out of a traditional academic background, and you cannot study this type of material in a traditional academic background because you'll be considered, you'll be ostracized or marginalized.
And, you know, Ingo Swan has gone into this in great detail.
I know you've talked to Ingo on this show in the past.
In his books, he says that there's this fundamental bias in our society against this sort of phenomenon because it goes against the very fundamental things we were taught that define reality.
And that's scary for people.
And if you're an academic in a university, it's going to threaten your job and your, you know, your career.
In fact, I'm very loud about it, like you and many other people on the show.
It's just the reality of the situation is if you look at the history of science, and anyone who's taken a history of science class will know, that science is not always rational.
And even with good data, people will turn their minds and not look at the results.
Now look at what Scientific Americans said about manned flight with the Wright brothers back, you know, 80 years ago or so.
Because things that are heavier than air can't fly.
And we should all keep this in mind when we ride on airplanes nowadays.
The fundamental tenets of science have to be challenged from time to time.
And Thomas Kuhn and others have suggested that we get these paradigm shifts not by people changing their mind, but kind of by the old cadre just kind of failing away.
And I'm afraid that's what's going to have to happen here because it's not only belief systems art.
It's the whole institutions that are built around these older mindsets.
And I'm not against people making a living and feeling secure.
We all want that.
But it's coming at the cost of our own health in lots of different ways because we have this new type of science available to us and yet there's so much resistance to it.
Well, what if this whole mass consciousness thing really is a gigantic power?
Let's think about that for a second.
Just suppose for a second that it was all really true and all of this mass consciousness business, if properly directed, would be a power unlike we've ever experienced on earth.
But if you're one of the people that can see a better way and you think, you know, we could actually have a better planet here.
We don't need all of the particular problems that we have.
As some of the guests have pointed out in the past, you know, we don't need these combustion engines anymore if we have zero-point energy machines.
But, you know, the real crux of the situation is, and a lot of the research in subtle energy points to this, that our own belief systems affect the ability of these sorts of new technologies to work, if you can believe that.
I think that a lot of these phenomena really are part and parcel of this larger subtle energy paradigm.
Everything from psychokinesis to telepathy to the types of things we see in and around crop circles and all sorts of other phenomena really do seem to me to be part of this other area of energy that is, again, very hard to measure, but empirically, if you look at all the data, suggests that it's there, kind of like some sort of ether.
Because I don't know any parlor trick that can make a spend, a spoon bend just by looking at it and look at someone and tell them their name.
Is there any way to explain that?
I don't think so.
I don't think you can have a group of people and just randomly select people from the room and tell them their birth dates, their names, and do this repeatedly day after day without missing.
I think it really is.
I think it's the real thing.
And you know why?
There's a whole book that documents this called China's Super Psychics that I read several years ago.
And it talked about children in China that were born with disability.
So I knew about this ahead of time, and this is pretty well documented.
There are a number of these children that can do this.
And so when I saw it, I said, wow, this is what I read about, and here it is actually happening.
This person, tell me if you can explain this.
He was able to take my watch and cuff his hands over it, and the hands spun around on the watch.
At the end of the show, he ran, he said, come here for a second.
Well, it's kind of like a show, but it's something that he could demonstrate that I don't think was explainable by any conventional magic.
In fact, if there's anyone that can explain how someone just could make the hands on the watch spin around simply by touching it, I mean, not turning the dog, just by touching it.
I'd like to know, at the end of the show, he just said, come over here for a second, I'm going to show you something.
He ran his hands over my forearm, and I could feel the electricity coming out of his hands.
I could feel like a mild shock, kind of like you'd get it.
And actually, having spoken to a colleague of mine in Boulder, Colorado, Lorraine Moeller, she told me that she knew of someone that could also do this in Boulder, but he was, again, very secret about it because too many people had expressed resistance to it.
But he said, oh, I know all about that.
I've seen someone do that too.
So apparently there are people that could do it.
And in fact, Uri Geller, they tested him extensively at Stanford.
And Russell Targ and Hal Putoff did say that he could do things that they could find no explanation for.
I mean, he was able to move things, and they had him in a chair, and there's no way he could have touched something in the other room.
So when you see things that defy our sense of reality, your mind, it kind of wants to snap back into a state where it says that can't be true, that can't be true.
And even someone like myself that's involved in these areas has that reaction.
And yet we know there are things that are beyond what we can believe that are true, and it just takes a while to get used to them.
You know, Dr. William Tiller from Emirates is from Stanford University Engineering Department.
He's talked about this extensively, and he says that they're all really the same thing.
There is some sort of key pump that we all have, a kind of psychic energy or chronic energy pump that we're all connected to that we don't know we have.
And this is why some of us do this remote viewing training and other things to kind of remind people that have this ability.
If you tap into this subtle energy field that is all around us, you can channel this energy through your body and connect to all sorts of information that our conscious mind doesn't have access to.
It comes through the subconscious.
This is why you'll hear remote viewers often talking, you know, from the CRV system that you've had many people talk about on your show here.
It comes through the subconscious, and remote viewers learn to have a dialogue with their own subconscious because the subconscious has a bandwidth capacity, get this, of like a million times what the conscious mind can do.
So if you think you're smart, your subconscious is like a super genius compared to every conscious thought that you have.
And that's where this comes through.
We're still learning about how this actually happens, but this is what seems to be going on.
I mean, we like to think we've changed in a couple hundred years.
We like to think we don't burn people at the stake, and yet we still have these belief systems that if you exhibit these abilities, you're going to be punished or killed or something like that and burnt at the stake.
And I think subconsciously we're all still afraid of this.
Look, how many of us are afraid to really talk about these topics in the open with people that we know are neighbors?
I mean, we're comfortable talking about this at night, you know, between each other.
But what about with people we know?
We have this fear of it.
And even I know this person in Japan was threatened by the Magicians' Union.
And they made him call it magic because they said it was not legal to do it without saying it was really magic.
Well, whatever you want to call it, something takes over his awareness, and he becomes a German doctor, even though he doesn't speak German in real life, and he operates on people.
Well, what Dr. Fritz says Is he doesn't really need those, but some people need to see some sort of medical instruments or something to convince them that something is actually happening.
He says he actually doesn't even really need to do that.
When he acts like Dr. Fritz, and Dr. Fritz has actually worked through many different people over the years.
This is the issue.
A lot of, even in Brazil, they've said you don't have a medical license, you can't do this.
In Japan, the government said you can come here if you don't actually do any of this sort of stuff with the machine tools and everything.
If you just talk to people and project energy, we'll let you come here.
But just before he was about to arrive, when I was there last September, just like the Magicians Union did with this psychokinetic individual, the Doctors Union said this is kind of like unfair competition and all this, and they denied his visa, even though he had agreed not to actually operate on people.
But he does this in Brazil, treating hundreds of people a day, and it's pretty well documented.
And when they've measured his brain waves, unsurprisingly, it's elevated to about 40,000 hertz.
Now this is getting into serious research, and I too have seen, gee, I don't know, 60 Minutes programs, I believe, that, for example, documented all kinds of incredible things about yogis that could control things that are uncontrollable in their own bodies.
Again, it really challenges our belief systems about what is real.
I mean, you may have some sort of boggle point, as some people call it, to the idea of channeling, and I have my own boggle points to other types of ideas.
It's part of being a human being, and I think it's healthy to be skeptical.
At the same time, we know we live in a universe that is considerably more infinite than our minds can comprehend.
And things, just imagine a couple hundred years ago, you know, people burning witches at the stake for things that people now pay for training and remote viewing, and people would have been killed for that.
Go back a couple hundred years before that to the Middle Ages, where we really thought we were the center of the universe, like planet Earth was it.
And they threatened Galileo and Copernicus with talking, in fact, that this could be an ordinary star and we're just circling a star.
So we know that ideas change, and culture is very slow to evolve.
Since people with these abilities tend to be quiet about it, then how many would you guess might be around, say, in the population of the U.S., that aren't making it public?
People that can move things with their minds, people that can perhaps affect the thinking of others, for example?
That's another thing, incidentally, that remote viewers are really quiet about.
The people that worked originally with the remote view program were like natural psychics, like Ingo, someone and other people.
And there's a certain percentage of the population that I really believe is naturally psychic.
I'm not one of them, okay?
I didn't think I could do any of this like most people probably believe.
I don't know what the percentage is, but I would guess it's more than we're willing to admit.
And if people weren't teased about this when they were smaller in school and were not ostracized, we might have more people that could really be helping us be more in the open about this.
Well, you know, if you think people get upset at somebody else's ability to say, just, I don't know, cause a glass to tip over on a table without touching it or bend spoons or whatever, if they really believe that person can do these things, they'll have one level of upsetness.
If they think that somebody else can actually direct their thoughts, oh, doctor, they get really upset.
And it does seem that there are people that can do that also.
I haven't encountered that directly, but I think that everyone, to some degree, has the ability to learn how to do this.
And that was my big learning experience from remote viewing.
I didn't think that everybody could do this.
But if you've taken a course in this and seen demonstrations, everybody has this ability to some extent or another.
And we're not taught about this in school.
And as we talked about earlier, I think the elites that kind of direct our society don't want people doing this.
But I think everyone has the ability.
In fact, the demonstration I saw in Japan, believe it or not, the lecture that he gave people at the end, he said the whole point of this was to show people, just very similarly to what your guest was talking about last night, that we live in a quantum universe where our belief systems get to direct our reality.
That was the whole point of the show.
And this is what we're going towards, is that our belief systems are, they are what create the structure we see around us.
It looks very solid out there, the physical world we live in, but it's really being constructed by our awareness.
I had never thought about the experiment that you have apparently performed.
And that is, I've heard many stories about the properties of crop circles and the experiences and the measurements people have made inside crop circles.
So anomalous, all of this information.
But I never thought, gee, somebody could go out and create a crop circle, human work, and then see if the same kind of subtle energy abilities are present within that man-made circle.
Well, you know, I've been working with, you know, Ron Russell.
He's been on your show in the past.
And we've been working together since 1996.
And we've had this idea.
Once we realized people did make, you know, some of the crop circles that we were looking at, we didn't originally think that people could make any of them.
But once we met circle makers, They told us, you know, when we go out there at night to make these, really strange things happen.
And no one, you know, this is the untold story of the crop circles.
It's not only later on do we see strange things, it's while you're making them, we see strange things.
So Ron and I thought, well, if we make some, would we see strange things?
These circle makers told us, and I'm specifically referring to people like Matt Williams and others who've talked to us extensively, that they were originally researchers, and they had this idea if they went out and made small ones, maybe the whole process would speed up.
They'd get more of them in the fields around England, like a communication process.
Well, when I heard that show, I think it was about a year ago, my ears perked up because we had been measuring these crop circles with our static electricity meter.
And we thought we had a litmus test for distinguishing the so-called real ones from the man-made ones.
Because the first three man-made ones that we knew were man-made that had been done in public and film, there was no energy charge in the meter.
They were like statically flat across the whole circle.
And other ones, the meter would jump around like a couple hundred volts as soon as you went into the circle.
Let's say we've got fairly dry wheat, tall, dry wheat.
Wouldn't the process of compacting that down, you'd have wheat rubbing on wheat, you'd have the possibility of an electrostatic charge accumulating, I would think, wouldn't you?
And this is something that Colin Andrews pointed out to me, that normally when the stalks of wheat are standing there, they're like a capacitor because they're insulated by air.
But when they're on the ground and flattened, they are now touching each other, physically touching.
It could create energy currents circulating around in a swirling spiral motion in the circle that you don't normally have in a wheat field.
And that in itself could be generating energies, which I believe, I mean, we believe, the people I work with, Ron and others, that could be responsible for all sorts of changes in the wheat plants, irrespective of whether it was created by ionic plasmas or stopper boards or extraterrestrials, which really do leave crop troubles behind.
Okay, then why wouldn't it be reasonable to project, Doctor, that the simple creation of an electrostatic field in some specific formation?
In other words, you could create an artificial electrostatic field, for example, in a room or in a, I don't know, a large aircraft hangar or something.
You could set up instruments that would create an electrostatic field in a certain pattern around somebody, and then you might begin to measure, you could even control the intensity of the electrostatic charge, for example, doctor, and get in the middle of this and see what kind of things manifest themselves.
But you know what subtle energy says is you don't need a lot of charge to make something happen.
It could be a subtle field.
Now, here's the thing.
If it's in a coherent shape, like a crystalline form, one of the sacred geometry shapes that you see in crop circles, and it has that kind of electrostatic pattern that is different from the surrounding field, it really could create an effect that you may not get if you don't have a shape there.
In other words, the shape combined with the electrostatic field.
In, for example, a big hangar, you create an electrostatic field and duplicate, I don't know, pick a crop circle that's had a very large anomalous effect when people enter it and duplicate that and create an electrostatic field.
You could even, as I say, control the level of the charge and then measure paranormal phenomena of those who are inside that field and you could even test at different voltage ranges.
Well, that would either rule in or rule out the static field itself as a causative agent in the phenomena that's experienced by those in the middle of these crop circles, man-made or otherwise.
Doctor, hold on.
We're at the top of the hour.
From the high desert in the middle of the night, this night we're talking about crop circles and stuff.
Actually, a lot of other stuff along with it.
But right now, crop circles.
Fascinating.
the night time, the right time for this kind of talk.
unidentified
Sweet dreams are made of things.
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world and the seven seas.
Everybody is looking for something.
Some of them want to use you.
Some of them want to get used by you.
Some of them want to abuse you.
Music How about a free CD?
Catch your attention.
Subscribe to the After Dark Don't Your Love her way and tell me what you say.
Don't you love her?
She's walking out the door.
All your love.
All your love is one.
A single lonely song.
Of a deal of dream.
Seven horses sing.
You'd be on the mark Wanna take a ride?
Well, call our bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
And to recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
With regard to the conversation we had last hour with Dr. Hein and the one coming up, he's right.
You know, my antenna is this really gigantic thing towering 75 feet into the air, all the way around 1,000 feet, 1,000 feet all the way around, electrostatically charged, big time.
now it's not in the shape of crop circle and well you know it is all around me perfect perfect rose You know, about a year ago, I remember the sudden excitement in the crop circle community about the measuring of electrostatic charges.
I remember that suddenly that was the answer.
We were going to be able to separate the real, true crop circles from the man-made bologna.
And that was going to be our savior in doing that.
Well, maybe not then, is the answer, I guess, according to what you just said, Doctor.
So is that right?
In other words, electrostatic measurement is not going to be the key to judging the reality, the origin of a crop circle, man's hand or not.
I don't think you can easily tell the origin of a crop formation.
I think it's been assumed in the research community that if you get weird effects around a crop circle, it had to have a very weird cause.
And I think what we're learning now is that the crop circle itself, just the shape in a living material, actually has effects on the surrounding field and in the crop circle that produce weird effects.
But it doesn't necessarily mean that something strange had to come down into the field to do that.
It's just that the circle itself, well, I think it acts like a crystal radio.
Did you play with those when you were a kid?
The radios have a crystal in it, and you don't need a battery.
It just seems to operate with just the power of the radio wave coming through the crystal.
I think before the 90s, I think a large percentage of them were non-man-made.
You know, they go back in history thousands of years, and there are, you know, references in the Dead Sea Scrolls to strange lights in the fields, and strange markings, and the mowing devil in the 1600s in England.
And even in our own century, the Tully Saucer Nests in Australia.
And they also had them in New Zealand at the same time.
I've spoken to people that have had friends that have seen UFOs in the vicinity where crop circles were found the next day, world areas of grass and wheat.
And, you know, there's a wonderful book that documents is the secret history of crop circles.
And it talks about all the pre-modern crop circles, which are really interesting.
Most of these, though, I want to point out, are simple circles or groups of circles.
They're not the elaborate patterns that we tend to see today.
I think there are some that are not made by people.
But I believe, And I'm not alone in this, I mean, I believe that the elaborate artistic ones that we enjoy looking at so much, the big elaborate artistic ones, are the work of human circle-making artists.
They're not hoaxes.
These are people that believe in what they call natural magic.
They believe in subtle energies one way or another because they believe that if they go out and make a crop circle like that, it will create magic that all of us can enjoy together.
It creates it while they are making the circle, they see balls of light and UFOs and have strange experiences.
They see shadow people when they're in the crop circles making them.
They have strange experiences with time change.
Either the group that I was with in the Cheryl formation, which I document in Opening Minds, the Cheryl 2000 formation, they apparently gained about 45 minutes of time.
They all seem to experience this.
I wasn't wearing a watch, so I can't verify, but they believe this happened.
It's not uncommon.
And this is what keeps them doing this.
And they make it because they believe that people who come into the circles later will have magical experiences, and this is good for us to experience.
So yes, the answer to your question is there was a time when I didn't believe humans could do it either, because I have heard all the evidence many years, many of the evidence from your show and other places, that architectural firms had, you know, they would said it would take them four days in the daytime to do this.
Ironically, the simple ones seem to be still the work of some other unknown force.
And the circle makers that I know have said, Simeon, before the 1990s, before the Doug and Dave era, you know, the two guys from the pub, they were actually artists.
I think they had some pretty decent motivations for doing it.
They weren't really hoaxing.
They were interested in making art.
But nonetheless, they said, we don't know who was making them in the early 80s.
What could have been extraterrestrials?
And I believe that crop circles are a language that were taught to us by extraterrestrials or some other type of intelligence to encourage people eventually to learn how to do this.
The flaw in that line of research, as far as I'm concerned, is that it makes an assumption that if you get molecular changes to the plant, there had to be some sort of energy beaming itself into the plant to do that, right?
Because if we put those plants in a microwave oven and we microwave them, we're going to get the same results.
But it's also possible, and I think this has to be tested as another possibility, that once you make the crop formation, that different energies are going to be operating in that field.
And again, this is consistent with what we know from subtle energy science, with the science of a conditioned space, as it's called.
The energy patterns change.
It could perhaps be due to the electrostatic charges or some other types of energy that we don't know.
But when you have that shape in the field, the plants begin to change.
I actually have pictures right now up on the Opening Minds website Of a formation we made last summer in the Cherhill area of England, where we paid the farmer, went and made the formation, and we caught bent nodes.
And I have pictures of those bent nodes up on the website, and you can see them.
I went back the next day, and they were already there.
What that's caused by is the plant trying to kind of raise itself up into a vertical position again.
So there's a lot of things about plants that I don't think we understand.
And I think to make the arguments that the BLT team has made, you need to have the proper controls in place.
It's very simple to do that, Art.
You just need to make a lot of man-made circles, preferably around the same time in the same area where you find the other ones, and honestly, test those plants too.
I'm not talking about one or two man-made formations.
I'm talking like a good sample size, like 30, like we're trying to do.
Make a lot of them.
And then compare the results and just see for yourself, are they really different or are they the same from the ones that we don't really know the authorship?
Another thing that happens in plants are what are called heat shock proteins.
When you put a plant into stress, different types of proteins are produced to try to help the plant through that stress.
And those have a very strong effect on the plant.
Those sorts of chemicals could also affect the molecular structure.
Let me just tell you something about when this happened.
The startling thing to me was that my batteries failed in my static electricity measuring device and in my camcorders, I'm talking at the edge of the circle of arc.
I mean, literally the edge.
It's talking something 200 feet.
And you just crossed into it, you know, just over the edge of where the weed is still standing where it's pushed down.
Blip, all the batteries are gone.
It's like there's a wall of energy there.
And it's real enough to affect your equipment.
And, you know, you can feel it too.
Sometimes people are in there and they say, I really feel charged.
Or sometimes they make you feel kind of sick.
And dowsers will go in there and their dowsing rods will start moving around.
And the most amazing thing to me was this devil's den formation, a dowser came in, and where she got the largest change in her dowsing rods was exactly where I had measured the largest static charge.
Believe it or not, it's in the smallest circles, not in the biggest ones, where you get that big charge change.
Now, again, I don't know if you're suggesting that the electrostatic charge can't affect the batteries, and I don't know enough about, you know, about the high charges.
There was a scientist who recently determined that a ball of plasma, plasma balls, can exist in the atmosphere and appear to be, for reasons inexplicable to them, energy sustaining.
In other words, they continue to generate enough energy to keep this plasma ball going.
You know, it should dissipate, it should go away or explode or do something, but instead it keeps going.
Now, where is that energy coming from to sustain these plasma balls, which might explain light?
Typically, and there's about 12 good videos that I think are the real thing that tourists and other people have taken, just happening to be around those areas where the crop circles are, something will come over the hill and it will move right towards the crop formation.
It will speed up.
It will slow down.
It will make right-angle turns.
In one case, a video that was taken by Steve Alexander, I think back in 1990 or 91, it actually went from one crop circle over to another crop circle about a half mile away.
I measured the speed of one of these near Barbary Castle from 1999.
There's a pretty famous video from that one.
The thing was moving nearly 200 miles an hour once it started to speed up.
Now, no birds fly that fast, unless some of them when they're a direct dive, but nothing moves that fast that I know right above the wheat.
It looks like it's intelligently controlled, and I'm confident it's either a life form that we don't understand, or it's someone's probe to investigate these crop formations.
Because they're intelligently controlled, and yet they're being attracted to man-made formations as well as the other type also.
So do you believe they are a product of them, or the formations that is, and these lights are a product of the formations, or are they simply a phenomena observing the fact that one of these has been made?
In other words, by making one of them, we have attracted someone's attention.
And, you know, in the Steve Alexander video, right before he started filming, he said, it actually went into the formation and it was like exploring it, like right down in the wheat.
It disappeared for a few seconds, and then it popped out again, and then it goes to another formation, and then it's seen passing over a tractor.
And the tractor stalled.
The tractor driver saw it, and he said it looks like a large, luminous beach ball.
Now, he is driving a diesel tractor.
They don't have much electrical stuff going on in them at all.
There's not much electronics in the diesel tractor, but it stalled anyway, and then it just started again.
You can see it on the video.
You can see the tractor stopping, and then it starts off.
They have an electrical property that can affect equipment, and they also, I mean, they look intelligently controlled.
And so I don't think the crop circle is creating them.
I think the crop circle is attracting them.
There are other cases where circle makers have told me they went into a crop formation, they started to make one, and balls of light showed up, and they actually ran out of there in terror because it frightened them.
So sometimes they show up and say, you shouldn't be here.
You shouldn't be making this.
That's another possibility.
And that happens sometimes.
So they show up before the crop circles even finish, but someone is watching those crop circles.
I don't know whether it's extraterrestrials in the upper atmosphere wondering what the humans are doing down on Earth or what, or it's a life form that's indigenous to the planet, as some people believe, but they're real.
The element of time, the element of time, doctor, of missing time or of time in some manner shifting so that our perception is, well, it's almost like time travel in a way, Doctor.
It's missing time.
And what do you suppose there could be about such a field that we're talking about created that would enter into that aspect of things, to warp time or to change time or to change our perception of time, whatever?
Yeah, I mean, there is something very strange going on in those fields.
I haven't experienced the time travel myself, but my colleague Ron Russell told me a very interesting story where he went, ostensibly, just to go get to the car back to get a flashlight or something, and he seemed to be gone in his own time for like three hours and then met a group of people speaking ancient English around a campfire.
And when he got back to the circle, he wanted to show.
He said, look, what I found something.
Come.
And from their point of view, he'd only been gone five minutes or something like that.
From his point of view, it seemed like he had been gone for an hour.
And then when he tried to go find the campfire and everything again, he couldn't find it.
And the car was right next to him the whole time.
It was a very strange experience.
And other researchers have reported similar types of experiences where a friend of theirs went back into the circle.
And from their point of view, in the car waiting for them, it seemed like hours.
Yet for the person in the circle, it maybe seemed like 10 minutes.
And that seems like time is getting dilated or warped in some way, which, by the way, is consistent with relativity theory, special relativity theory, that time can be different from different points of view.
And so I'm not sure exactly what accounts for it, but it does seem that that may be happening.
Some experiments I've heard of that have been done with watches is that if you take two very good quality watches and you leave one in the circle and leave one outside, that sometimes you can see a noticeable change where there shouldn't be any.
Well, doesn't all of this just scream for the creation of an electrostatic field in the shape of some crop circle in a laboratory environment and then testing inside?
Now, maybe, as you point out, maybe, maybe there's something more to it than just the electrostatic field, but maybe not.
We were talking about this at the very beginning of the show, and of course, you talked last night with Dr. Franks, the same sort of discussion.
Coast to coast, you know, it's talked about all the time.
How does human conscience affect reality?
Subtle energy sciences has documented evidence that people's thoughts affect physical reality.
The documentation is in the form of very subtle temperature changes and the reproduction rates of fruit flies and things of this nature.
If you have two objects and you have a group of meditators meditate on one of those objects that are structurally identical, you take the object that was meditated upon and put it next to fruit flies or water or other types of processes and you measure the processes going on there.
They'll be different from the controlled object that was not meditated upon.
And this has been documented many times by Dr. William Tiller.
What he calls it an area that's around a space that has an object in it that people have focused on, a conditioned space.
Now, the human circle makers that I know, and this is a very well-kept secret, they actually say prayers before they make their circles.
And I'm told that most of the groups do this.
About 90% of the circle making groups, they say prayers and incantations.
The ones that I've been around in the circles that I've seen made at night.
They are incantations for planetary evolution, planetary healing, magic, and positive things.
We're not talking about black magic here.
We're talking about positive intentions that, and basically the prayer will go something like this, that may everyone who enters this circle experience some sort of magic in their lives.
Now, we know from the research of Dr. Larry Dossi and other people about the effects of prayer and intention, that it does affect people's ability to heal.
And I suspect it has an effect on the plants in that space, because the plants are still alive when the circle is made.
And so this is another element I want to add to the equation beyond the electrostatic charge is the human intention, that this could have a lot to do with the effects of the circles.
Because you don't only have the human circle makers, you have some sort of interaction with the intelligence of the plants.
And just like a colony of ants, a single ant doesn't have a lot of neurons in it.
If you take the whole ant colony, it can act intelligently.
I suspect a whole field of wheat can do something in a similar way.
Now, so you're pretty far out on a limb when you start saying then there's some interaction between the people's intentions and the lives of these plants.
You're pretty far out on a limb when you say that.
The electrostatic field part I can buy, and I guess I can understand, and I would urge more experimentation.
But when you start talking about, I don't know, some kind of interaction with the plants, that's that just conjecture?
I've seen the documentation from that at some of these remote viewing conferences where they pulled out the whole data sheet that was printed out by these different machines that were measuring these plants' response in relationship or the cells that they take from someone's T cells and they will do something to the other T cells and see these T cells in another room react from the, you know, the cells are from the same person.
Well, this data, I'm just saying it suggests, and when you're being scientific, you want to be open to all the different possibilities.
It suggests that living things have an awareness of one another and that intention really does matter.
I think Cleve Baxter's data suggests that plants have an awareness and intelligence that perhaps conventional science hasn't fully recognized.
And I think it's possible, again, we certainly need to do more experiments, but it's possible the plants are reacting to the intention of the humans making the formation.
They may even enjoy being made into a crop circle.
I mean, they're going to get eaten anyway in a couple weeks.
You might as well become a crop circle on your way to the cereal plant.
I mean, hey, I don't know.
It's a possibility.
Because, no, seriously, the data suggests from all of this study, and it's being done at Duke University right now with the Mitchell Kruklov study, of the effect of prayer on healing.
And this is another type of prayer, perhaps, but it's real.
And it's a subtle energy effect, and I think it could be responsible for some of the effects that we see.
And when that person came into the room, the plant killer, the plants would react, or they did experiments with yogurt.
They took two different, you know, common culture from a single yogurt pub, and they separated them into different petri dishes.
They put them in different rooms, and they do something to one sample of yogurt, and the other yogurt reacts.
Believe it or not.
Or the T cells taken from a sample in your mouth, they'll take them into separate rooms, and they will do one thing to the first set of T cells, and the other T cells will react the same way as the first set of T cells.
Now, what this is called in biology is entrainment.
And we know that living systems can become entrained to one another.
They are at a quantum level, subatomically linked.
And of course, this is what quantum mechanics says is possible.
I don't know what actually accounts for it.
Some people want to argue with the quantum effect, and other people, like William Tiller, want to argue that it's just an extension of classical electromagnetics, but he calls it magnetoelectrics because it seems to suggest particles moving faster than the speed of light, just an extension of existing physics.
But no matter what you think the cause is, something's going on.
And it's interesting to think about the possibility.
Well, this is something that actually I think they discovered about 100 years ago, is that if you take, you know, like a pile of sand on a metal plate and you broadcast sound into the plate, these sand grains will spontaneously form into a coherent pattern.
And as you change the notes that you're broadcasting into the metal plate, the sand grains will rearrange themselves into different shapes right before your eyes, coherently.
It's almost like magic.
But it's some sort of principle of physics where energy in the form of sound Is converted into a shape.
Now, the other possibility is also true, that the shapes themselves generate infrasound.
You can't actually hear it, but that any shape, actually, if there's some sort of energy around it, will generate a sound.
It's almost like it's like these crop circles can be tuned to a specific frequency by virtue of the shape.
And if we find out which particular shapes generate those effects, we could create our own formations, perhaps even in your own garden or on a small scale, you know, not necessarily on a large scale, but something that we could reduce to a more manageable size that the average person could engage in and see what the effects are.
Why isn't it reasonable to conclude, for example, that the lights that you refer to and that are seen by so many are, in fact, the product of an electrostatic field?
In the atmosphere, directly above the created circle, you do have an electrostatic field, and that goes up into the air, into the atmosphere.
The only thing that ruins that idea is you said it comes zipping off, you know, or zipping toward the formations from some other direction.
If it was always above the crop circle itself, one could surmise that the same field is creating that light.
The balls of light seem to have their own charge and affect equipment as they zip on by.
The crop formation itself seems to have its own energetic charge.
Perhaps they attract each other.
The balls of light are attracted to the circle, but there's a number of possibilities.
You'll recall that pilots have mentioned from time to time, even on this show, that when they've flown over the crop formation that their instruments were affected briefly.
And what we really need to do is to narrow down the variables a little bit.
But you know, you don't want to narrow them down too fast.
You could be kind of force them into a paradigm to try to make it make sense.
And it might be something that you're not expecting.
So you have to kind of go carefully just so that you don't eliminate some of the possibilities of what it is.
The electrostatic charge is one aspect of it, and it's a fascinating part of it.
But what else is going on there?
What is generating this?
And I suspect, to get back to your question, that you need a lattice work, just like a crystal needs a lattice work to do the amazing things that crystals do in our watches and television sets and radios and things like that.
You need some sort of structure there.
And I believe that the wheat stalks or whatever plant material you're working with acts like a lattice work because it's planted in a very regular way by the seed driller, right?
I just popped up a new webcam image for you, a new photograph of me sitting here doing the program.
Hope you might enjoy that.
Here in the last hour, Dr. Simeon Hine is my guest, and we're about to open the lines for Dr. Hine.
He said a lot of incredible things, really incredible things tonight about crop circles.
What we believe about them, what we don't believe about them, what he's discovered about them.
And some of it is pretty fantastic stuff, to be sure.
I never in a million years would have imagined, frankly, that some of those intricate 10-acre formations made over such a short time possibly could have been man-made, but he says yes.
And then he also says the same anomalous effects are present in those as the ones made by, well, whoever they are.
So we've got a lot to deal with.
If you have a question, that's what phones are for.
Michael, is it okay to put you on the air for a second?
Yes, I'll give you a minute.
Go ahead.
All right, all right, I'm going to put them on hold.
I'm going to do this.
I mean, this is a very non-trivial point.
Yeah, for you to be coming on the program and saying, look, even the biggest, most intricate, and I've looked at these, you know, the aerial shots here, sitting in front of the audience, and I've told this audience, And I still really say it now.
I can't believe that humans could do it.
It's just, it's beyond my comprehension that humans could have done some of these.
Yes, sure, granted, some of them.
But it would have, in my opinion, have taken an army of people to produce some of these.
And so I don't know if this is going to work, but I'm going to try and put Michael Glickman on here.
And he's made the case that all of the crop circles, virtually all of them, the large, intricate ones that I think you and I have agreed in the past, it would be impossible for humans to have made, he says they are, in fact, made by humans.
And one of my callers called and said, well, you know, I just called Michael in Great Britain, and he said that's rubbish.
And that was a word he used, rubbish.
And so I thought, well, okay, fine.
Let's get you on the air with Dr. Hine and see.
unidentified
What do you want me to say?
Well, was rubbish the word you used?
No, it wasn't.
The word I used was No, I won't use it.
I mean, it's a nonsense.
I've known Simeon for many years, and in fact, Simeon has approached me and thanked me for being the person whose lecture brought him into the study of crop circles.
And I have to say that I'm deeply ashamed of it because he's trivialized, traduced, perverted the subject, the study of the subject.
I mean, there is absolutely not an ounce of support for his nonsensical hypothesis.
No, I don't think I'm arguing that all crop circles are man-made.
There is clearly evidence from witness reports, people that I know that have seen ones that are made by something else.
But my argument is simply that I believe the mantle of crop circle authorship shifted in the 90s to human-made circles from something else, mostly from something else to mostly a human.
I don't believe it takes away from the magic of the crop circles one iota, and I think they're just as mysterious as they've always been.
I just think the mechanics of it is a little different than I originally thought, but I know that they're real and that they contain a communication from other dimensions, other information and energy.
And I think that human beings are allowed to participate in that magic.
Michael, what is the best evidence that you could cite that there have been circles made that it would be totally and completely impossible for man to have done, large, intricate ones?
unidentified
Well, there are two evidences that I can cite.
And one of the best evidences that I can cite is the fact that on every occasion when people come up with this nonsensical claim of the magnitude of human participation, on study it's found to be utterly hollow.
Now, when Colin Andrews ran around with his 80% claim, I spent six months studying his work.
I probably know more about Colin Andrews' claim than even Colin Andrews does.
I would recommend your readers to log into swirlnews.com and look at my two articles called 80% proof, which shows that this claim was utterly spurious.
Now going on from that, all the hoaxes are demonstrably out to deceive.
They never give out real information.
They delight in the deceit of others.
And Ron Russell and Simeon Hine and many others are regarded as the hunted heads, the trophies on their walls.
In this country, these people are sneered at for falling to con men.
Now, this is one side of the argument.
The other side of the argument, the reality of the circles, as opposed to the hollowness of the claims otherwise.
The reality of the argument is simply brought about by the assiduous and continuing studies of people who are crop circle researchers and are finding continuously components in circles which could not be randomly or accidentally placed there by a bunch of people at night time.
I'm not a professor of sociology.
I was a professor of architecture.
And so I know about geometry and design and number and I have been finding for 14 years now a consistency of what I can only call genius in the design construction of these forms.
And I know Matt Williams and John Lundberg.
I know all these people.
I've known them forever.
But I wouldn't allow them into my freshman class.
And the suggestion that these people, because Simeon has been seduced into watching a staged demonstration, the suggestion that these people could attain the majesty and precision and articulacy of the program of formations we've been having for all these years is ludicrous.
I mean, we have now had some research done by Alan Brown, who's a young man, a geometer of very great skill, who has backtracked over the whole program of quintuplets, which are the dice five spot formations, early formations.
The whole program of these has been studied since the mid-80s.
And various protocols, geometric protocols have been thrown at them.
And it has been discovered that every single one of these formations squares the circle.
Now, this is one of the most important ancient exercises in sacred geometry.
You said the circle makers are deceivers, Michael, and now you're saying they come up to you and tell you who's the author and you believe them.
I would tell you that the first thing a circle maker would say is no human could make those.
You know why?
Most of them do not want it to come forward that they make them because they know that people like you and other researchers will pay more attention to them if you think they are not being made by people.
The Circular Magazine called it one of the great circles of all time.
And I know local magazine.
The Circular Magazine from the Center for Cross Circle Studies.
And I know people that live near your area who told me as soon as they saw it, they knew it had been made by aliens because they could feel the energy coming off.
I will not reveal this person's name.
This person said as soon as they saw it, they knew it had been made by aliens.
They could feel the energy coming from it.
And I do believe it generated energy.
Maybe it wasn't made by aliens, but the circle was real.
So the fact that you don't like the appearance of the circle doesn't mean that the other ones that you do enjoy weren't made by people.
That's not very logical, is it?
unidentified
No, it's not very logical, but I mean, after 14 years of assiduous study, I have yet to have this position shaken.
For you, Dr. Hine, Michael Glickman made, I think, an interesting charge when he asked or even stated that you had been seduced, that was the word he used, by the circle makers in Great Britain.
Look, I'm a scientist, and I'm interested in data and information.
And anyone who comes to me and says, look, I can offer you more information about the subject matter than you currently know, I'm willing to be open-minded and take a look.
There was a time when Galileo went to the Pope and said, will you look through my telescope?
And the Pope said, no, why should I look through your telescope?
I know that the universe is finite and that we're the center of the universe.
You see?
So how do we know when we should look through the telescope and when we shouldn't?
Let's take the other point of view, Michael's point of view.
If someone, back in the year 2000, when a group came to me and said, would you like to see us make a circle at night?
For me, that was the litmus test of whether all of Michael's claims all the years that I've heard him make, and I believed for a long time that humans could not make them, the only way to find out art was to go out with my own eyes and see for myself.
If I hadn't gone, I never would have known.
And it really did change my point of view, but that's okay.
We're all adults and we can handle the truth.
Both Michael and I believe that crop circles are the bones of God.
I don't believe that God cares who makes his crop circles.
And for you, Michael, before we actually got you on the telephone, Dr. Hine referred to you as a fundamentalist when it comes to crop circles.
And in fact, you did say that you wouldn't even be willing to watch an invitation to come out and see an intricate, very large crop circle being made.
And that would seem to put you in that fundamentalist category.
unidentified
It doesn't put me in that position.
I've been sitting here during the break and I've been terribly depressed by the fact that a program as important as the Ort Bell Show is still sifting through the trivializations and patent falsehoods of this hoax business.
I mean, it's been laid to rest.
The research community now believes that the hoax thing is an interesting but trivial sideline which serves basically to reassure the frightened population.
But there's been no solid evidence.
Once again, I would counsel everybody to read my pieces, two of them, 80% proof on Sword News website, which shows the level of integrity and discernment and scholarship which backs up these hoax claimants and hoax supporters.
Michael, a large, intricate formation of the type you say humans can't do, that type.
A demonstration of the big, really complicated ones, Michael.
If they can demonstrate that to you, why not watch?
unidentified
Well, you know, I might be persuaded to watch.
But, I mean, fundamentally, I make most of my judgments from the design and the geometry.
I am not a ground person.
I'm a design and geometry person.
And normally, I have to say, I can look at a photograph and I can perceive the man-made formation essentially, essentially, because they are incapable of designing the crop circle.
They are capable of designing and making an imprint in the crop.
But it does not have the proportion, the ingenuity, the inventiveness, the scholarship, the geometry of the real thing.
I would have believed exactly what you just said, Michael.
And listen, we've got to leave you at this point because the time is growing short.
But I would have said exactly what you just said, Michael.
Believe me, I would not have believed the hand of man could have done this.
But if there is an opportunity presented to you to observe it, as a scientist and investigator, I don't think you can say no.
unidentified
Can I tell you, every single summer, a TV company comes up and pays these guys a few thousand pounds to make yet another circle, and they make a circle, and then the TV company goes away and says, well, that proves it.
From a statistical point of view, if you have a large enough group of man-made circles and you can see all of these things in them, the little signs and heating and bent nodes and exploded nodes and all those sorts of strange phenomena we talked about at the beginning of the show,
if you can see those in enough of the man-made circles, after a while it constitutes a form of proof that unless you can demonstrate that the other formations are made in a different way, the only logical thing to conclude is that if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck.
I mean, why make it more complicated than it has to be?
Listen, Michael, thank you for being here this evening.
I think you've added an important word to this.
And so thank you, Michael.
I'm sorry, I wish we had more time.
So Dr. Hine.
Have you had it Have you personally gone up on a hill or wherever you were and have you seen somebody make a 10-acre complicated, precise monster, the likes of which we've all seen?
Well, you know, Occam's razor says do not multiply entities beyond necessity.
If someone can present to me any evidence, again, I'm open to the evidence.
If someone can show me any evidence that the bigger ones are somehow made by someone different than the medium ones that I've seen done, I'm willing to see that.
But I would just encourage Coast listeners to not believe Dr. Simeon Hine or Michael Glickman, but go out yourself and find a farmer and make your own circle and make your own mind up.
My question, Doctor, is have any experiments been done on the crop circles to see if there's any simultaneous activity in the circles in different locations or possibly synchronized activity between similar shaped crop circles at the same time?
Yeah, there are many instances, and again, this is something that I'm just relaying to you from things that I've been told by the circle makers.
I haven't seen it myself, but I've seen the patterns they've done, where they later found out that a circle that they made, someone had drawn the exact same circle and had never told them about it.
And yet they went out and made it and it had already been drawn two weeks ago by someone else.
Or other cases, a circle maker had the feeling to go out and make a circle.
He later found out the shape he made was the exact shape that a group was meditating upon about a half mile away.
And so I think that's an example of the kind of simultaneity that we see in the cooperation.
Doctor, I didn't notice what I would classify as a great deal of love professionally between you and, say, Michael Glickman, and probably quite a bit of the crop circle investigative community in general.
Would you think that to be true, not just of Michael Glickman, but of a lot of the mainstream, ha, ha ha, mainstream, I say, researchers into crop circles.
This is a position I've never understood either from a lot of the researchers.
Why will they not go?
We were not the first people that Matt Williams and his group approached.
We were the only people that said yes.
And we were not seduced.
Believe me, we were quite curious.
I had heard Michael Glickman and many other researchers say, this cannot be done.
And if you can prove otherwise, I'd love to see it.
So when I got this opportunity, I jumped on the opportunity.
But the case is, I think many researchers are afraid of the truth.
They have such a vested interest in people not making them that I think they've lost sight of the real importance of the crop circle phenomena as a whole, because lots of different sources make crop circles, to be honest.
And for some reason, they've gotten hooked into just one aspect of the whole phenomena, and they're defending it.
I think the whole point is to get to the truth, and I think the public needs to make their own minds up about it.
But let me just tell you a quick anecdote about that.
After I made, was involved in watching the Cheryl 2000 Formation, a very well-known researcher in England came up to me at a Crop Circle conference, and she said to me, what did you see out there, Sami?
And I told her.
And she said, you know, I've known for five years they were all man-made.
Once I made one with my husband, we knew that they were all man-made.
And I said, well, why don't you tell people?
She said, people are not ready for the truth.
And besides, if I told the truth, some researchers would get very upset and it might affect their health.
And that was the end of the discussion.
And this same person later wrote an email to a colleague of mine, said, those who know don't tell.
And I don't agree with that point of view.
I think it's our job to, in a responsible way, if we uncover a very important truth like other researchers have done in the past, we made reference to Galileo and Copernicus.
I think even though if the mainstream doesn't agree, science is not a popularity contest.
Up here in Idaho, we have a lot of wheat fields, corn fields, potato fields.
And you have a lot of the good old farmers out there, and they've got their farm dogs with them.
My question for your guest is, when you go out there or when whomever goes out there to make the crops, A, how do you communicate with each other so that you get such a precise formation?
And B, how do you do it so that you're so quiet while you're communicating to make such a precise formation that you don't get caught?
Yeah, and they're set to pre-low volume, and they talk into them at a reasonable volume.
They dim all of their lights to a high degree.
They even put tapes over their LED flashlights, the ones that are often so advertised on coast that I use all the time by Steve Crane and other companies.
Those are taped over with a really lot of tape.
Even when I was filming once, they said my eyepiece was leaking too much light from the camcorder.
That's how sensitive you get.
Well, the bottom line is at 2 a.m., almost everyone's asleep.
And so even if there's a little bit of noise out there, you're just not going to hear it inside the house.
They have learned how to do this.
And they also use the rope when they're using the surveyor's tape.
One tug might mean come closer, and two tugs might mean go farther back.
And there's different ways of communicating in the dark.
Kind of like you might imagine the Navy SEALs communicating.
You've seen NAV hand language and different ways of communicating quietly.
I'm going to definitely give a lot of thought to this program tonight and to what's been said on both sides.
I'm going to give it a great deal of thought because honestly, previously, and I'm not sure that I've let go of it, my view was with respect to some of these circles, it certainly would have been, and I think I still believe it, impossible for man to have done.
Impossible for man to have done.
I'm certainly not as cemented in my position as Michael Gwickman, and I would dearly love to see a demonstration of something of that magnitude.
And one thing that I brought out of all of this, I think, is that there has been no demonstration, maybe of what the doctor called big, but no demonstration of some of the complex circles that we've seen appear on our Earth.
So once again, something to think about.
But then again, that's what this program is all about.
From the high desert, here's Crystal.
She knows how to say goodbye.
See you next weekend.
unidentified
Good night in the desert, shooting stars across the sky.
Thank you.
This magical journey will take us dawn around you with the longing, searching for the truth.