Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

Nov. 9, 2003 - Art Bell

02:51:04

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Simeon Hein - Explaining Crop Circles. Ramon Lopez - Solar Flare Cycles

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	Music From the high desert and the great American southwest, I
	bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever in all the world's time zones you may reside.
	This is Coast to Coast AM Weekend.
	I'm Mark Bell.
	Great to be here.
	And as we began the last program, I'm going to begin this one as well.
	We have a mystery sound, and we would like your help to find it.
	Somewhere, someone out there knows what this sound is.
	Let me read you what my friend Jim, who recorded this, wrote.
	Attached is a recording of the 40 meter mystery noise recorded 11.08.2003 at 11.40 a.m.
	on 7209 MHz lower sideband using a 2.4 kHz filter.
	The recording was made with my FT-1000MP Mark V with no noise blanking, DSP, or any processing.
	I am intentionally not compressing the recording so as not to introduce any artifacts.
	Using Cooletta Pro, I was able to confirm that the pulse rate is exactly 100 Hz.
	At my location, the signal bandwidth appears to be 100 kHz.
	I receive it from approximately 7150 to 7250.
	This is a strange noise on the 40 meter ham band, and we are bound and determined to find out where this noise comes from.
	If you think you have a hint, if you're in on some military project or something that's doing this, And would like to spill the beans.
	And I'm going to give you an opportunity to spill them directly to he who did the recording.
	Although it's annoying all of us.
	And we are curious, I must admit.
	So I'm going to give Jim's email address, with his permission, at the end of this.
	And you can send your responses directly to him.
	I want you to listen very carefully to the noise.
	You'll hear the receiver background.
	Then you will hear this incredible noise that comes up.
	It's a hundred kilohertz wide, and it's a total mystery.
	Here's the noise.
	And then boom, like somebody threw a switch, it's gone.
	If you have a hint, uh, or know what that noise is, I would appreciate a response at the following email address.
	KI, that's the way he'd say it, KI6GU, at packbell.net. That's KI6GU at packbell.net. And we would
	all appreciate any information you might be willing to spill about that strange noise in a
	place where it ought not be. Once again, that email address is KI6GU at packbell.net. Now, I
	received the following from Whitley Strieber about an hour before air time. Evidence, past
	climate change happened in hours.
	Now this will be up on Whitley's site by now or shortly.
	Discovery of a 5200 year old soft-bodied plant frozen in glacial ice in Peru reveals evidence of a massive and long-lasting climate change that took place in hours in order for the plant to have been quick frozen rather than killed by frost It must have been covered by a massive snowfall that took place over just a few hours.
	Since then, the plant has remained frozen and has not yet been thawed.
	Meaning once this snowfall took place, no melt occurred for over 5,000 years.
	Scientists are working to understand the mechanism behind what is being called an astounding finding.
	Historical data indicates there was a sudden worldwide climate event about 5200 years ago, but until this finding, it had not been realized that, at least in some areas of the world, it brought a total transformation of whatever climate was there, one to grow green things, right?
	From temperate to freezing in perhaps as little as a few days, and that change became permanent.
	If such an event were to occur again, it would cause, without question, worldwide chaos and deaths, maybe in the billions, possibly the collapse of civilization.
	Scientists are urgently seeking answers in the ice fields of the Peruvian highlands.
	And you'll find that posted up on Unknown Country anytime now.
	Now, I'm about to introduce Ramon Lopez, Professor Lopez, actually, who is a C. Sharp Cook, Distinguished Professor in the Department of Physics, University of Texas, El Paso, received his B.S.
	in Physics.
	In 1980, from the University of Illinois, his M.S.
	and Ph.D.
	in Space Physics.
	In 1982 and 1986, respectively, from Rice University, his current research focuses on dynamics of space, the space environment, and comparisons between global computer simulations of the magnetosphere, And observations!
	He's authored and co-authored 68 scientific publications, 17 non-scientific publications, including the popular science book, Storms from the Sun, to be released May 14, 2002 by the Joseph Henry Press.
	He is a fellow of the American Physical Society, a member of the Committee on Undergraduate Science Education of the National Research Council, ...has served as the chair or member on several committees of the American Geophysical Union and the American Physical Society.
	From 1994 through 1999 was Director of Education and Outreach Programs of the American Physical Society.
	Dr. Lopez is active in science education reform both locally and nationally, has served as an education consultant for a number of school districts around the A country, state, education agencies in California, Maryland, North Carolina, Texas, and for organizations including Discovery Communications, Inc., the National Science Resources Center, and various government agencies.
	In other words, he's an expert on the sun.
	And now here is Professor Lopez.
	Professor, welcome to the show.
	Thanks.
	You're very welcome.
	I mentioned to you briefly before the program, I've been a ham operator licensed since 1958 or so.
	A long time and I have watched Sun Cycles come and go and I've watched them on a daily basis.
	I look at all the charts, the x-rays, the proton flux, all the rest of it every day And so I've watched the behavior of our son for all those years daily.
	That doesn't make me an expert, it still makes me an amateur, but I have never in all my life seen any behavior from our son that rivals what just happened in the last couple of weeks.
	What's up?
	Well, hard to say, but it has been pretty spectacular.
	And you're right, there's nothing really to rival that last flare that we had on November I mean, that's the largest explosion that has been recorded on the sun by modern scientific instruments.
	It's hard to say whether it's the largest solar flare in recorded history, because in 1859 there was an enormous solar flare that caused a huge magnetic storm on Earth.
	It was the first documented case of real space weather.
	And, in fact, the magnetic storm produced by the coronal mass ejection from the flare uh... knocked out telegraph communications in europe and
	north america for the better part of a week without a been during
	a a solar uh... maximum
	uh... i'm not sure i had to tell you the truth that it was or max
	or close to it yeah yeah uh...
	i'm not not entirely sure really okay i'm i'm hearing some uh...
	uh... sort of behind the scenes words that there are observations going on now
	of gigantic their words explosions on the far side of the sun and they're able to
	observe this only by apparently looking at the uh...
	of the c m e as it be ejects beyond the rim of the sun but that they're
	observing explosions for Does that surprise you?
	No, it doesn't surprise me at all.
	And in fact, I looked at the data myself and yeah, there are very large explosions going off on the far side of the Sun.
	It is most likely that same active sunspot region, region 486, that blasted us a couple of weeks ago.
	Okay.
	And that one may come back around.
	The sun has a rotation period of about 27 days.
	So, in a couple of weeks we may see it again and we may be in for some more magnetic storms.
	Well, there's a couple of possibilities.
	One, it would of course have diminished in size by the time it comes back around.
	But then there's always that slim possibility that this is a monster that won't quit and in fact gets even bigger.
	That is within the realm?
	That certainly is.
	We really don't know.
	We don't know until we see it.
	We don't know as much as we might about the sun period, huh?
	That's right.
	We don't know why the sunspot cycle is 11 years long.
	We don't know why sometimes it gets stronger and weaker.
	We don't know why The solar magnetic activity seems to have been increasing for the past hundred years, and we don't know why in the 1600s solar magnetic activity more or less shut off during a period called the modern minimum.
	I just read an article last night from the New Scientist that indicates that over the last 1150 years, and they found this out by measuring the amount of beryllium-10 That they found in ice core samples, that for the last 1150 years, the solar activity in general has been very, very low.
	I mean, it's not like this is just sort of a repeat cycle of something that's even common in the last 1150 years.
	The Sun just has not, in that period of time, according to this beryllium 10 thing, the Sun is really misbehaving at the moment.
	I mean, compared to what we know about the past.
	It's entirely possible.
	I haven't seen this report, but this idea of looking for beryllium, that's a proxy for solar magnetic activity because that's being produced by cosmic rays and the amount of cosmic rays that hit the Earth is impacted by the solar magnetic activity and the solar wind magnetic field.
	Exactly.
	Stronger solar wind magnetic field acts as a bigger obstacle, if you will, to the cosmic rays.
	You obviously must have seen the movie The Core.
	Yeah.
	I just saw it recently, and I thought, you know, when I got it, I thought, oh, here's going to be a real B-class science fiction movie.
	But when I watched it, I went, wow, the science in this is pretty right on the mark, I thought.
	I mean, there were, you know, unobtainium and that kind of thing.
	But aside from that, the rest of the science, I thought, was pretty cool.
	It was a goof.
	I enjoyed watching the movie, but I've got to tell you, the science was all wrong.
	All wrong?
	All, all wrong.
	Well, beyond opinion.
	Part of my pleasure was sort of laughing at some of the stuff.
	I mean, it's kind of cool to have people talking about space weather and magnetospheres and such in science fiction movies, but unfortunately they got the science all wrong.
	Let's try a question then, based perhaps on a little bit of that.
	When a, let's say we have one of these mega flares, and she's pointed right at Earth, and BOOM!
	It hits the Earth, and it hits the magnetic field.
	What does, when it hits the magnetic field, what does that do to the magnetic field, when it really gets hit hard?
	Well, it compresses the Earth's magnetic field, but that's not really, it's not the actual pressure of the blast that's important.
	It's a more subtle thing.
	How much magnetic field is in the cloud that came from the sun, and what direction was that magnetic field pointing?
	Depolarization.
	If the magnetic field is pointing southward in the solar wind, then it can interconnect with Earth's northward magnetic field, and you can transfer energy.
	And that's really, if this transfer of energy, it's sort of like a big electric dynamo out in space, that's what drives currents in Earth's upper atmosphere, that's what produces the aurora, it's an indirect effect.
	And if you have a monster blast from the sun, then you will significantly compress your magnetic field and you could, if the cloud's magnetic field is pointing in the right way, have a big storm.
	And this is exactly what happened in 1859.
	The aurora was seen over Havana, Cuba, and Galveston, Texas, and off the coast of Nicaragua, and places where you never see the aurora.
	And it really scared the bejesus out of people.
	I'll bet it did.
	And it knocked out the most advanced technology that humans had at the time.
	It knocked out the telegraph.
	Made it really unusable for the better part of a week.
	Now, people back in 1859 were not so dependent on electromagnetism and the technology of harnessing electricity and magnetism.
	We are critically dependent on it now.
	We had one of these monster magnetic storms We could end up losing a lot of spacecraft, which represents a significant part of the communications infrastructure.
	Of course it does.
	We lost a spacecraft.
	I'm trying to remember what it was.
	I think it was SpaceNet 4.
	And gosh, all the ATMs went down.
	Yeah, that was Galaxy 4 in 1998.
	Yeah, it was carrying somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of the pager traffic.
	It was carrying all the NPR feeds.
	I mean, anybody who works at an NPR station remembers that day, the day that They lost their feed, and they had all this dead air time they had to fill.
	All right.
	Now, let me hit you with a scenario and see what you say.
	The Earth gets hit with a large event.
	The magnetic field becomes compressed.
	But instead of just one large event, we get peppered with one after another after another large event that keeps hitting the Earth's magnetic field, battering it.
	What are the possibilities?
	Have you ever considered that?
	Well, you could just have very strong storminess for a very long time.
	And again, that's more or less what happened in 1859.
	That's why it was a whole week that the telegraph was having severe difficulties.
	And if we had that kind of thing today, you would just have ongoing magnetic storms and radiation levels in space would climb to Very high levels.
	How much danger for the astronauts?
	The astronauts, not very much, to tell you the truth.
	They're at such low altitudes, people don't realize just how close the space shuttle and space station fly.
	They're only a few hundred kilometers up.
	Communication satellites are out at 6.6 Earth radii from the center of the Earth, so they're pretty far out there, 22,500 miles above the surface of the Earth.
	Those are the spacecraft that can be battered by the radiation zones, and if they sit in regions of high radiation for a long time, then their electronics can start to have problems.
	And in the last set of storms, there were two Japanese satellites that did have problems.
	That's what I heard.
	Professor, hold it right there and...
	You'll have to excuse me, Professor.
	I almost missed a commercial break, and those Los Angeles people, you just know they'd get just so upset when I miss breaks.
	So, there you are.
	So, we did lose a couple of, or I guess a couple of Japanese satellites had a problem.
	I thought most of them had been hardened against this sort of thing.
	Well, many, many spacecraft have been hardened.
	Engineers are starting to learn.
	It's always hard to tell, you know, how much design do you put in to a spacecraft, because protecting against these kinds of things is just an expensive problem, especially when you're talking about designing specialty computer chips.
	So, what I heard was that one Japanese satellite went into what's called safe mode.
	It was having a problem, it shut itself down.
	And then there was another one that they lost communication with.
	They're not sure what happened, and they don't know if they're going to be able to talk to it again.
	Okay.
	With respect to the core, again, the movie, if we had no magnetic field on Earth, what would these storms do then?
	Well, if we had no magnetic field on Earth, actually, you know, the monster solar eruptions would not cause too much of a disturbance here on Earth.
	It's kind of the Earth's magnetic field extends pretty far out into space.
	And so that makes the Earth's magnetosphere a much larger obstacle to catch the energy from these big clouds.
	But if we didn't have a magnetic field, we'd have far, far more serious problems.
	Cosmic ray flux here on the Earth would be much higher than it is now.
	Cancer rates?
	Cancer rates would be a lot higher if we didn't have a magnetic field.
	And there's some question as to whether we'd even have an atmosphere.
	Because to what extent would the solar wind have, as the solar wind is hitting the Earth's atmosphere directly, over, you know, billions of years, how much of it would it have taken off the surface of the Earth?
	And that probably would happen to a large part of Mars' atmosphere.
	I mean, Mars is also smaller, so it didn't have as much gravity as the Earth to hold onto its atmosphere.
	But certainly, erosion by the solar wind contributed to the loss of the Martian atmosphere.
	Really?
	And when solar flares hit Mars now?
	Nothing much happens except that the radiation levels will increase on the surface of Mars.
	But if man were walking on the surface of Mars, would he be in trouble?
	He'd be in how much trouble?
	Because we do plan a mission, you know?
	Yeah, you're not going to fall over dead walking on the surface of Mars just because of one solar flare, but you're going to get A significant dose of radiation, and in fact, that's a serious, serious problem.
	It's not only just walking on the surface of Mars where there's very little atmosphere and essentially no magnetic field to protect you, but it's also just a trip from Earth to Mars and back.
	You're exposed to galactic cosmic rays, and you're exposed to high-energy particles generated from the sun, and you're exposed to high-energy particles generated by shockwaves from these clouds that go exploding through the solar wind.
	So that's a very, very serious problem.
	Well, yes.
	Serious enough that it would actually prevent humans from safely going to Mars?
	It would if you didn't take care of it.
	I mean, you have to have a storm shelter.
	You have to have someplace where you can go where there's a lot of material between you and the radiation, so the radiation can be stopped in that material.
	Well, lead is very expensive to put into orbit.
	You bet.
	That's going to be a problem.
	Probably the easiest solution would be to, you know, fling up a few tons of lunar dirt and pack it around, you know, the central core of a spacecraft.
	Because if you're going to go to Mars, you're going to have to build something pretty big.
	Lunar dirt.
	That's pretty good.
	All right.
	Hold on, Professor.
	We'll get right back to you.
	Here's somebody who studies the Sun.
	We'll keep asking questions of Ramon Lopez in the nighttime on Coast to Coast AM.
	by Mark Bell.
	I'm going to be doing a video on how to get your hands on a free copy of the book, The
	Oldest Book of All Time.
	We'll be back to where we started from Love is good
	Love is good.
	Love can be strong.
	We gotta get it right.
	That's where we started from.
	Do you remember that day?
	When you first came my way?
	I said no one could take your place.
	And if you get hurt, if you get hurt by the little things I say,
	I can put that smile back on your face.
	When it's all right and it's coming home, We gotta get right back to where we started from.
	Love is good, love can be strong, We gotta get right back to where we started from.
	To reach Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh, From West of the Rockies, Dial 1.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
	1-800-825-5033. First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard
	line at 1-775-727-1295. To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T
	operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the premier radio network.
	Top of the darkness, everybody.
	My guest is Professor Ramon Lopez, and we're discussing the sun and its, I don't know, antics lately.
	Attention, L.A.!
	smile once again professor lopez uh...
	Professor, welcome back.
	Let's see, I read a recent science article that indicated that contrary to what was believed earlier, I guess our sun is considered to be a fairly stable sun as suns go.
	And there was some recent evidence that even stable suns There might be stars that do things like that, but I don't think that those are Sun-like stars.
	unknown and not necessarily supernova, but do something so disagreeable that it could
	virtually sterilize planets like ours.
	You know, in their immediate vicinity.
	There might be stars that do things like that, but I don't think that those are sun-like
	stars.
	People have been observing sun-like stars for the past 30, 40 years, and yeah, they
	We do sometimes do strange things.
	We know, for example, that other stars have magnetic activity cycles, like our sun, and sometimes they turn on and sometimes they turn off.
	And our sun also exhibits that kind of behavior.
	So, the sun could do things that could affect our technology, but remember, the sun's been around for billions of years, and there's no evidence anywhere in the geological record that it has ever done anything that would have That kind of an impact.
	And I'm sure it'll be around for billions of years yet to come.
	And our very own Earth has been around a very long time.
	Contrary though, we haven't been around that long.
	That's true.
	But we can look back to the geologic records and we don't see any evidence of that kind of dramatic change.
	But nonetheless, the Sun can have changes.
	And these massive sunspots during a time when it's supposed to be solar minimum.
	This is an example of that.
	Actually, it is kind of interesting, because you've got to wonder what exactly is going on with the sun, because the solar cycle does seem to have been intensifying over the past hundred years.
	There's evidence that the solar wind magnetic field has been getting stronger, in fact doubling over the past hundred years, and maybe this kind of activity at what we normally call solar minimum, is just part of
	this a little bit more magnetically active
	sun. And that has direct implications for our technology because we depend on electricity and magnetism for
	everything. And there are many people who believe that comets are
	to some degree responsible.
	And there are stories going around that comets are causing this disturbance on the sun.
	Comets actually hitting the sun.
	No.
	No.
	Wouldn't do anything.
	Comets do hit the sun.
	In fact, if your viewers go to the SOHO website to see images of the sun, they can get pictures.
	They've got some movies of comets going.
	And crashing, maybe not actually hitting the sun, but coming close enough that they vaporize.
	So they go around the sun, they don't come back the other side.
	Okay, but they wouldn't be the causative agent of these monstrous sunspots and these explosions.
	No, no, this is something deep inside the sun.
	This is something, the sun's dynamics, and nothing in the solar system is going to affect that.
	But it does point out the need for prediction.
	Yes.
	And knowing something about what space weather is doing and being able to warn Satellite operators and power grid operators.
	I think that's why we didn't see more bad effects in this last round of activity because people knew it was coming.
	They got warned, yeah.
	But you know what's very interesting is that right at the time when all of this activity was going on, there was a hearing in the House of Representatives to review funding for the Space Environment Center, the place in Boulder, Colorado that does space weather prediction.
	Because in the budget, they're zeroed out.
	They're wiped out of the budget.
	Now we should observe.
	So here's one for you.
	We can't look at the other side of the sun for the most part, right?
	Right.
	Should we be able to?
	In other words, a prediction would certainly improve incredibly.
	The way I understand it, we've got a satellite out about a million miles.
	From Earth, between Earth and the Sun, so that we can look at what's actively going on, at what's pointed toward Earth.
	What do you think of the concept of getting a satellite about as far away from the Sun, over on the other side, that could relay information about... Then, just think, Professor, what that would do for forecasting.
	It's a great idea.
	And in fact, what we really need is several of them stationed in Earth orbit around the sun so that we can
	develop stereo pictures of the sun.
	And there is actually an idea for a mission called Stereo that's supposed to fly sometime in the next decade or
	so that will put one satellite ahead of the Earth and one satellite behind the Earth in the Earth orbit so that we
	can get a stereo view, at least on this side of the sun,
	putting them on the other side of the sun that presents more of a
	challenge and be a lot more expensive.
	Oh, absolutely!
	If we could do that, then we could have great predictions.
	Now, there's also a great controversy, Professor, about whether the sun and its activity affect weather on Earth.
	Now, I guess the jury is still out on this one, or what are your thoughts?
	Well, you have to distinguish between weather and climate.
	Weather is short-term stuff, like is it going to rain today or not?
	Climate is long-term.
	I live in El Paso.
	It's a very dry climate.
	We're never going to get a lot of rain.
	There might be days that we have rain, but in general, we get a small amount of rain a year.
	And climate, there is evidence that solar activity does affect climate.
	Weather?
	No.
	A magnetic storm does not mean that we're going to have a hurricane.
	I'm sorry.
	I meant climate, so I should have really said that.
	But you're thinking yes, huh?
	There's evidence and there's also a physical mechanism.
	How would this work that's plausible, that fits within physical laws?
	So yeah, there's a mechanism and there's some evidence that yes, when the sun has greater magnetic activity, the Earth warms up.
	So, global warming is a fact.
	It's been observed that the Earth is getting warmer.
	The real question is how much was caused by humans versus how much was being caused by the sun.
	Indeed.
	And do you have any thoughts?
	I don't know.
	But I am pretty convinced that some of the global warming that we have seen over the past hundred years is solar in origin.
	I mean, even the common person sort of puts that together easily.
	More activity from the sun, more radiation, More effect on Earth.
	The sun does affect us after all.
	And if it's got a lot more energy, then it's transferring it one way or the other to Earth, and it gets warmer here.
	Duh!
	It's actually a pretty complicated chain of events.
	It's through the cosmic rays.
	I bet it is.
	That people think that this works in high-altitude clouds.
	So that when you've got a lot of solar wind magnetic fields, you don't have a lot of cosmic rays.
	So you don't have a lot of high-altitude clouds.
	so more sunlight hits the earth instead of being reflected.
	That's the chain of events that people have talked about.
	And it's something that's physically plausible that could be responsible for some of the global warming.
	There's just so much that we don't understand.
	Yes, there is. And there needs to be money made available.
	I mean, after all, we can ship $87 billion or whatever it is over to Iraq to rebuild that country and so forth and so
	on.
	So why aren't we spending money, you know, to look at our own very important environment?
	You said it yourself.
	I mean, we're filled with chips from end to end.
	They mean everything now in this country.
	And if we were to get hit really hard, without warning, Oh, that would be expensive, Professor.
	Very expensive.
	It could be really bad.
	And so, actually, the sun did us a favor with these storms, you know, a couple of weeks ago, because those storms hit just at the time that Congress was talking about should we zero out the Space Environment Center.
	You almost might call it a shot across the bow, huh?
	Exactly.
	It was perfectly timed, and I'm glad to say that the session went very well in the House.
	It was chaired by Vern Ehlers, who's a physicist, by the way, one of two physicists in the Congress.
	And I'm very hopeful that in conference, the Senate and the House will come together and say, we cannot afford not to have space weather predictions.
	Very good.
	And your listeners, if you guys want to call your Congressman or Senator and tell them that we need to have space weather prediction and we need the Space Environment Center, do it.
	I mean, for example, right now, Sunspot number 486.
	Let's assume the worst, and that it's growing and growing and growing, and if we had a satellite on the other side of the sun, we'd be able to say, hey, everybody, tinfoil hat time, or whatever, because here she comes.
	Yeah, and it'll be interesting to see in a week, when it comes around the limb of the sun, if it's still there and if it's still as monstrous as it was before.
	Indeed so.
	If it is growing, Who knows?
	Maybe we'll have another, you know, super flare like the 1859.
	Well, right.
	Exactly.
	Now, Professor, another interesting thing happened.
	As I say, I watch on a daily basis, and holy mackerel, when those gigantic spots finally rotated away on the other side of the sun, the charts dropped like a rock.
	I mean, I never saw it.
	It was like, you know, the patient just died, and it was way down just flat in the B area.
	Just amazing, actually, how quiet it suddenly got, and now it's like the giant quiet before the storm.
	Exactly.
	You see it the same way.
	There's storming going on, but as you say, it's on the other side of the sun, and we know that stuff is blowing off in the other direction.
	We just have to wait and see what happens in a couple of weeks.
	Is it unusual, Professor, when you take the sun as a whole, That these monstrous spots would congregate kind of in one area and then be so quiescent on the other side.
	Isn't that strange?
	I'm actually not sure how strange that is, because you get all kinds of behavior from the sun, and there are plenty of times I've seen that one, you know, the side that's facing us doesn't have any sunspots, but there seems to be magnetic activity on the other side.
	But the difference is so huge.
	If they're as big as they were when they were facing us.
	That does seem a little bit odd to me.
	Not my field exactly, so I can't say how many other times people have seen that kind of behavior.
	Professor, what's at the core of the Sun?
	The core?
	A very large fusion reaction where hydrogen, basically protons for the most part, Uh, is, are, are being smashed together because the temperatures are so high and they're moving so quick, uh, they can overcome the electrical repulsion and they can get close enough where the nuclear force can take over and then fuse them into, uh, helium nuclei.
	And when that happens, the, the product weighs less than what went into the reaction and, and, and the extra mass, the missing mass, appears as energy.
	And that's what powers The sun, that's what powers an H-bomb.
	Same process.
	And the sun, I've heard, is much hotter on the outside than it is down near the core.
	Is that true or false?
	That is false.
	The core is hotter than the atmosphere, the sun.
	But the atmosphere is a couple of million degrees.
	The visible surface is only 6,000 degrees in Celsius, Kelvin, actually.
	Anybody have any idea by how much?
	Yeah, actually, I don't remember the number for exactly the temperature of the core.
	We've got a surprisingly good idea of the overall basic structure of the Sun.
	The Sun is always quivering like a big bowl of jello.
	We can make observations of that shaking and use it to probe the inside of the Sun in the same way that we use earthquakes to probe the inside of the Earth because of the sound waves traveling through the Earth.
	Right.
	And so there's a field called helioseismology, the seismology of the Sun, and they've got pretty good evidence of the basic structure of the Sun.
	That's really fascinating.
	What's the difference between a flare and this coronal mass ejection?
	Are they one and the same?
	How do we differentiate between the two?
	They're not exactly the same.
	They usually come together, but they don't always have to.
	A coronal mass ejection is a huge cloud of electrically conducting gas and magnetic field that lifts off from the sun and hurdles out into space.
	And when these things hit us, then sometimes we get magnetic storms.
	The flare is a sudden release of energy stored in the solar magnetic field near the surface of the sun.
	And it's like a big explosion.
	And sometimes the big explosion is associated with one of these big clouds that blows out into space.
	In fact, quite often they're associated, but they don't have to be.
	these big players that we thought all had big chrome after jack
	Yes.
	and yes uh... at have a settled by the way on the size of this
	most recent incredible explosion was it uh...
	i've heard various figures It ranged from, I think, about X-28 is the last one I saw, which seems, and maybe you can tell me a little bit about the scale.
	X-20, I believe, was the top of the scale, wasn't it?
	It used to be.
	Well, okay, yeah, used to be is right, because I guess we just, we need more instruments, different instruments?
	Well, the thing is that, yeah, the flare On November 4th did actually saturate the detectors and they had to try to figure it out from other means just really how big it was and you're correct it was they've settled on x28.
	The way that they classify flares is by how much power there is how many watts per square meter in a certain range of x-ray wavelengths from 1 to 8 angstroms.
	Yes.
	That that window just how much power in that little window Professor, quick question.
	Is the scale linear?
	No, it's logarithmic.
	It's logarithmic.
	So an X28 is 2.8 times more powerful than an X10.
	I said that wrong.
	I gave you a linear scale.
	No, it is logarithmic.
	Okay.
	X-28 is a lot bigger than an X-10.
	Okay.
	Why did they presume that an X-20, let's say, would be the biggest amount of energy release they would ever see from the sun?
	Because, obviously, you've got to have, you know, you've got to set up your scale as, well, there's the biggest thing that could ever happen, but whoops!
	Something bigger happened.
	Well, they hadn't actually set an upper limit to the scale.
	What they had set is an upper limit to the tractors.
	And figuring that, well, we hadn't seen anything bigger than this, and so we're probably not.
	And that was not correct.
	The previous record wasn't an X-20 flare.
	So what do you think they're recalibrating to right now?
	Well, the instruments that are up there are the ones that are going to be up there for a while.
	So we won't have any other X-ray instruments that are able to record higher power levels.
	Do it the way that they do it now.
	Let me restructure my question.
	If we were to launch another satellite tomorrow, the instruments would be capable of recording how big a flare, do you suppose?
	You might want to go up to X-40, X-50.
	X-40 or X-50?
	And let me tell you, Art, this is just totally a guess.
	The biggest thing that we've got on record for 40 some years is X-28.
	So, let's go ahead and make it an X-50.
	And who knows, that might not be enough either to capture some flares.
	Uh-huh.
	You never know.
	Well, see, that's the whole thing about the sun and what's going on right now.
	It really does come down to that.
	We just don't know, do we?
	There's a lot we don't know.
	That's right.
	There's a lot we do know, but there's still, like, you know, why these big sunspots during solar minimum?
	We don't know.
	You know, in two weeks, when this thing is dead on the Earth's sun line again, is it going to be still another monster?
	Are we going to get even a bigger flare than the X-28?
	We don't know.
	Just have to wait and see.
	Is there any way to explain the dynamics that causes the sunspot or the hole itself?
	Yeah, people have done a lot of work with trying to understand the nature of sunspots, and it has to do with the differential rotation of the sun.
	The sun does not rotate with the same angular speed at all latitudes.
	So some latitudes run faster than others, and that twists up the solar magnetic field.
	And that twist represents stored energy.
	Any kind of twisted magnetic field, just like a twisted rubber band, represents stored energy.
	So sometimes these twisted bundles of magnetic field become actually buoyant.
	And float up and pop through the surface of the sun, pushing a little bit of the solar gases out of the way at the surface, making that region a little bit cooler.
	And because it's cooler, it looks darker, and that's the sunspot.
	All right.
	Professor, we've got to go.
	We're out of time.
	I could have used all night long.
	Thank you for being here, and thanks for the education.
	You're welcome.
	Good night.
	Good night.
	Well, there you are, folks.
	Nobody really knows.
	But the sun, she's wiggling pretty hard right now.
	Fascinating.
	We'll just have to wait and see what comes around the horn.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
	In the middle of the night, stay right where you are.
	are still to get very very interesting the
	the the
	the one of the garage
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	800-618-8255, east of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach our that area code 775-727-1222 or call
	Call the wildcard line at 775-727-1295.
	To talk with Art on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them
	dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Crop circles.
	They are probably one of the top three, top two great mysteries of the paranormal.
	Question mark right after that.
	Paranormal, I'm not sure.
	But they are a great mystery, and if you've seen some of them that, for example, have appeared in England, there are certain things that anybody knows.
	One, they weren't made by men.
	There's no question about it.
	They couldn't have been made by men.
	There's no tracks.
	There's no arrests.
	There are signs.
	Question mark?
	There's something.
	Prop circles are something.
	We don't know what they are, but they certainly are squarely in the center of we don't know where they came from, what they mean, or who put them there.
	And that's what we're going to discuss tonight with Simeon Hine.
	Dr. Simeon Hine is the director of the Institute for Resonance.
	This is a non-profit in Boulder, Colorado devoted The Study of Subtle Energy Sciences, including Remote Viewing, Crop Circles, and Related Subjects.
	Dr. Hine, as a Ph.D.
	in Sociology, has previously taught research methodology at Washington State University.
	He first learned remote viewing in 1996 and subsequently became involved in crop circle research.
	He is the author of Opening Minds, A Journey of Extraordinary Encounters, Crop Circles.
	Opening Minds is one of the first books to argue that man-made crop circles can create the same anomalous energy effects as naturally formed circles.
	Wow!
	There is something to contemplate.
	Opening Minds will also document how crop circles are related to remote viewing and other subtle energy phenomena.
	Having witnessed the formation of large crop circles made by expert crop circle making teams in England, Dr. Hine learned of the extraordinary phenomena including telepathic experiences, balls of light, UFO sightings that frequently surround man-made crop circles.
	He's made experimental circles here and in the UK, so as to test whether the circle's anomalous effects can be replicated in those formations made by ordinary people.
	Dr. High now believes that all crop circles, regardless of their origin, create magical effects, his word, magical effects, by virtue of their shape and the subtle interaction between humans, plants, and sacred geometry.
	In addition to assisting with Institute for Resonance crop circle tours, he continues to teach remote viewing in Boulder and in Japan.
	His website is www.openingminds.info.
	So in a moment, Dr. Hine.
	Dr. Hine, welcome to the program.
	Well, good morning, Art, and thanks for having me here.
	I know I speak for a lot of listeners and say thanks for having such a great show for so many years.
	Thank you.
	We have some hum on the telephone.
	We do, how's that?
	Worse.
	Are you on some sort of headset, Doctor?
	Yes, hold on one second.
	Okay, let's switch to a real phone.
	How's that?
	About a million times better.
	We got it.
	Okay.
	Alright.
	So, it's hard to know where to begin with you.
	Doctor, it really is hard.
	I mean, there's so much here.
	So, I guess I better just ask you, give me your best explanation of what you're calling subtle energy is, please.
	Subtle energy phenomena are a whole range of phenomena that relate to biological organisms.
	and life energies that really were never really addressed by mechanistic physics
	that were taught about in school. Talking about things like auras?
	Yes, auras, the type of energies that bodies and living things generate. Healing energies,
	chi energy, you know, from martial arts, things like that.
	Yes. These energies are very subtle.
	Some people estimate that they're ten times weaker than the Earth's magnetic field.
	So, you know, we've been talking about solar flares.
	I think how they're very subtle and very weak.
	In fact, sometimes they're referred to as ultra-weak forces or non-Maxwellian forces.
	They're very weak, but if you set up the proper equipment, like with random number generators and things like that, you can actually measure these forces.
	In fact, you were getting into this discussion last night with Dr. Frank.
	In fact, I was.
	And we're going to go right back into it.
	But first, let me approach it from the skeptic's point of view.
	Many say, Doctor, they're so damn subtle that they're baloney.
	They don't exist.
	They're not real.
	Yeah, you know, I might have taken that view myself, you know, before I started studying it.
	Because, like you, I read New Scientist magazine, and I kind of have a hard-headed approach to this.
	But if you look at the statistical data, there's no doubt that these phenomena are real.
	Alright, make me a believer.
	What evidence would you offer that these things are real?
	Your best evidence?
	Well, let's just take, in general, to start out with, all of the psychic research that's been done over the last 100 years.
	Okay.
	When you put all these studies together, there's a type of research that combines statistical studies together, and you can kind of look at the effects over many different studies.
	And get a large sample size.
	And sometimes the odds that you're getting these results are like in the trillions to one.
	And that really, by any standard, that's like the gold standard in science.
	If you get odds that are that high, that's called statistical significance.
	Let's just look at the experiments that were done in Princeton at the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Lab.
	I'm sure you're familiar with this.
	I certainly am.
	Yeah, well, with the random number generator, they found that certain global events affect their random number generator.
	And in the experiments they did, where people would sit at home in front of their PCs and try to affect a random number generator.
	Yes.
	You know, after the cumulative results, after about, I believe, about eight years or so.
	Yes.
	If you look at the graph, I mean, there are results.
	There is no doubt.
	Now, this may challenge our idea about reality, that you can affect a device sitting a thousand miles away.
	I know.
	But this is the nature of science.
	Science doesn't mean that it necessarily has to fit in, you know, with your belief system that you learned in school.
	You have to look at the data and have an open mind and say, look, what does this mean?
	I think if you look at the data from this research, you know, when they did their research for the remote viewing program, when Jessica Utz did the study for the CIA, she asked, you know, did they get good results?
	She concluded they did.
	So, you know, we know it's real.
	We just don't understand exactly how it works.
	All right.
	Simeon, when I spoke to the people who were actually running the program at Princeton, and be assured, I did at a very high level.
	What I detected from them, and maybe you can help me explain this, is a great disinterest in having any publicity about the findings at Princeton.
	I mean, they just didn't want to really talk about this publicly at all.
	Yeah.
	Why do you think that would be?
	I'm not surprised.
	Why?
	I mean, such astounding results surely should be shouted about.
	I agree with you completely, and this is why I do this type of research with my colleagues at the Institute for Resonance, because I came out of a traditional academic background, and you cannot study this type of material in a traditional academic background, because you'll be considered, you'll be ostracized or marginalized.
	And, you know, Ingo Swann has gone into this in great detail.
	I know you've talked to Ingo on this show in the past.
	You bet.
	He says that there's this fundamental bias in our society against this sort of phenomena, because it goes against the very fundamental things we were taught that define reality.
	And that's scary for people.
	If you're an academic in a university, it's going to threaten your job.
	You know, your career, and people, you know, are concerned about this.
	But Doctor, it is measurable, real proof that the energy we're talking about exists.
	So, I can understand treading carefully into this field from a career point of view, but once you actually have results...
	Results you can slam down on somebody's desk and say, here it is, then why would you want to be quiet about it?
	I wouldn't want to be quiet about it.
	In fact, I'm very loud about it, like you and many other people on the show.
	The reality of the situation is, if you look at the history of science, and anyone who's taken a history of science class will know, that science is not always rational.
	And even with good data, people will turn their minds and not look at the results.
	Now look at what Scientific American said about manned flight with the Wright Brothers back, you know, 80 years ago or so.
	They said it's impossible.
	Why?
	Because things that are heavier than air can't fly.
	And, you know, we should all keep this in mind when we ride on airplanes nowadays.
	The fundamental tenets of science, you know, have to be challenged from time to time.
	And, you know, Thomas Kuhn and others have suggested that We get these paradigm shifts, not by people changing their mind, but kind of, you know, by the old cadre just kind of fading away.
	And I'm afraid that's what's going to have to happen here, because it's not only belief systems, Art.
	It's the whole institutions that are built around these older mindsets.
	And, you know, I'm not against people making a living and feeling secure.
	We all want that.
	But it's coming at the cost of our own health in lots of different ways, because we have this new type of science available to us, and yet there's so much resistance to it, you know?
	Well, what if this whole mass consciousness thing really is a gigantic power?
	Let's think about that for a second.
	Just suppose for a second that it was all really true and all of this mass consciousness business, if properly directed, would be a power unlike we've ever experienced on Earth.
	Let's see, would you want to keep that quiet?
	I think it depends, you know, if you're part of the power elite.
	You might.
	You might want to keep that quiet.
	Definitely might.
	It depends who you are.
	It depends where you are in the system.
	Speaking as a sociologist, it depends where you are in the social system.
	If you're at the top and you want to keep things the same, you're not going to want people talking about this.
	No, you don't want to rock that boat.
	No, you don't want to rock that boat.
	But if you're one of the people that can see a better way and you think, you know, we could actually have a better planet.
	We don't need all of the particular problems that we have.
	As some of the guests have pointed out in the past, you know, we don't need these combustion engines anymore.
	We have zero-point energy machines.
	But, you know, the real crux of the situation is, and a lot of the research in subtle energy points to this, that our own belief systems affect the ability of these sorts of new technologies to work, if you can believe that.
	Are remote viewers using this subtle energy to glean the information they glean in the process of remote viewing?
	I believe they are, yes.
	Yes.
	I think that a lot of these phenomena, you know, really are part and parcel of this larger subtle energy paradigm.
	Everything from psychokinesis to telepathy to the types of things we see in and around crop circles and all sorts of other phenomena really do seem to me to be part of this other area of energy that is, again, very hard to measure but empirically, if you look at all the data, suggests That it's there, kind of like some sort of ether.
	Psychokinesis, you mentioned that, is very, very, very interesting.
	Is there evidence, irrefutable evidence, that somebody has demonstrated that power?
	Psychokinesis.
	I mean, I don't know, where is that evidence?
	Well, Art, I saw it myself a couple weeks ago in Japan.
	Let's hear it.
	This was the most amazing thing I ever saw, I have to say.
	It was on the island of Kyushu in Nagasaki Prefecture, in a town called Sasabo.
	This man will not give interviews.
	He will not let you take his picture.
	He will not take any money for his demonstrations.
	He just has a restaurant that he and his wife operate.
	You can go there and watch him do these.
	He does these shows two or three times a day.
	I saw him bend spoons just by looking at them.
	Things spin around without him touching it.
	He could look at people and tell them their birth dates and their names and he didn't miss one.
	And he did this with objects that just came from people's pockets.
	Sounds like a magic stage act.
	I would have thought so.
	You know, this is the way our minds work.
	We have this mindset that there has to be some explanation.
	I know.
	But I saw objects become like molten liquid in front of my eyes.
	You're standing three feet in front of this guy.
	And the person that invited me to see this was actually a surgeon from a hospital who was taking my remote viewing classes in Japan.
	Really?
	And he said, Simeon, you just have to see this.
	I saw it in front of my eyes and if I hadn't, you know, I've talked to some of the people in our own military remote viewing unit.
	Do you know that there were people that were doing this in the unit?
	No, and as a matter of fact, let me tell you, I've interviewed, I believe, every really well-known remote viewer there is.
	I've interviewed them all, and when you ask them about something like psychokinesis, that's one area where they get real quiet.
	Well, they shouldn't be, because I know for a fact that there were people that were hired alongside the Military Remote Viewers that could do this.
	They could pick up objects off your desk and melt them with their fingers.
	I had heard about this, and I hadn't seen it, and when I saw this person doing this, I said, that's exactly what was described to me, what this person saw over at DIA.
	How do you know you weren't looking at a parlor trick?
	Because I don't know any parlor trick that can make us spend A spoon bend just by looking at it and look at someone and tell them their name.
	Is there any way to explain that?
	I don't think so.
	I don't think you can have a group of people and just randomly select people from the room and tell them their birth dates, their names, and do this repeatedly day after day without missing.
	I think it really is.
	I think it's the real thing.
	And you know why?
	There's a whole book that documents this called China's Super Psychics that I read several years ago.
	And it talked about children in China that were born with disability.
	So I knew about this ahead of time, and this is pretty well documented.
	There are a number of these children that can do this.
	And so when I saw it, I said, wow, this is what I read about, and here it is actually happening.
	This person, tell me if you can explain this, he was able to take my watch and cut his hands over it, and the hands spun around on the watch.
	At the end of the show, he ran, he said, come here for a second.
	So it was a show?
	Well, it's kind of like a show, but It's something that he could demonstrate that I don't think was explainable by any conventional magic.
	In fact, if there's anyone that can explain how someone just could make the hands on the watch spin around, simply by touching it.
	I mean, not turning the dial, just by touching it.
	I'd like to know.
	At the end of the show, he just said, come over here for a second, I want to show you something.
	He ran his hands over my forearm, and I could feel the electricity coming out of his hands.
	I could feel like a mild shock, kind of like you'd get.
	Really?
	Yes, I could feel the electricity.
	And actually, having spoken to a colleague of mine in Boulder, Colorado, Lorraine Moeller, she told me that she knew of someone that could also do this in Boulder, but he was, again, very secret about it because too many people had expressed resistance to it.
	But he said, Oh, I know all about that.
	I've seen someone do that, too.
	So apparently there are people that could do it.
	And in fact, Uri Geller, you know, they tested him extensively at Stanford.
	Oh, I know.
	And, you know, Russell Targ and Hal Puthoff did say that he could do things that they could find No explanation for I mean he was able to move things and they had him in a chair and there's no way he could have touched something in the other room so I You know when when you see things that defy our sense of reality Your mind, you know It kind of wants to snap back into a state where it says that can't be true that can't be true and even someone like myself that's involved in these areas has that reaction and yet we know there are things that are beyond what we can believe that are true and it just takes a while to get used to the
	Subtle, and they're all in this subtle energy category?
	I think they're all in the same category.
	You know, Dr. William Tiller from, Emirate is from Stanford University Engineering Department.
	He's talked about this extensively and he says that they're all really the same thing.
	There is some sort of chi pump that we all have, a kind of psychic energy or pranic energy pump that we're all connected to that we don't know we have.
	And this is why some of us, you know, do this remote viewing training and other things to kind of remind people they have this ability.
	If you tap into this subtle energy field that is all around us, you can channel this energy through your body and connect to all sorts of information that our conscious mind doesn't have access to.
	It comes through the subconscious.
	This is why you'll hear remote viewers often talking, you know, from the CRV system that you've had many people talk about on your show here.
	It comes through the subconscious, and remote viewers learn to have a dialogue with their own subconscious, because the subconscious has a bandwidth capacity, get this, of like a million times what the conscious mind can do.
	So if you think you're smart, your subconscious is like a super genius compared to every conscious thought that you have, and that's where this comes through.
	We're still learning about how this actually happens, but this is what seems to be going on.
	You mentioned that that person was very quiet because of the, I don't know, the reaction, I guess, of people to that ability.
	And that's an interesting area to focus on.
	Of course, you know, a couple hundred years ago, a hundred years ago, whatever, we'd have burned somebody like that squarely at the stake.
	Well, an interesting thing has happened in modern times.
	We still more or less want to do that.
	Simeon, hold on.
	We'll get right back to you.
	we still want to do the modern equivalent of that actually and that is
	burn someone like that at the stake before there's more of them
	the official website of coast to coast am is www.coasttocoastam.com Log on now.
	I can see for miles and miles and miles and miles and miles Oh yeah, oh yeah
	If you think that I don't know about the pictures you play I never see you
	Hey light, look at me I can see the way I was high Shine to me out of my world I wanna fly
	Suddenly I just wanna fly And I, will find that you're not the kind to be high
	You got it so I love you, just get it off So you don't do whatever
	One day you'll, you'll turn around You'll find your world, you'll find your job
	You'll have them to make, and it's gonna happen to you I'm sure, I'm sure
	I'm still lost in the world I feel blind, I don't know what is happening
	Suddenly it just happened Out of my dreams
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	The spectrum of subtle energies.
	And that encompasses an awful lot.
	A lot of ways it has some bearing on the show we did last night.
	And again, we seem to be talking about this whole mass consciousness thing.
	And the things we know are true, or think are true.
	I've just got a couple of interesting fast laughs that I'll share with you.
	Okay, Vince in Seattle, Washington says, Hey Art, you're right.
	Parlor tricks.
	Scientists are the easiest to fool.
	What do you think?
	You know what?
	I have one more thing to say about that, that Sony, did you know Sony had a psychic research division?
	No, I didn't know that.
	Yes, it was run by a man named Seiko, and I think they discontinued it recently, but it was in operation for several years.
	In fact, Dean Radden talked about it in his book, The Conscious Universe, and they went to film this guy with one of their high-speed cameras.
	I think it's the only time he let someone film them.
	You know, 20,000 frames a second or something like that?
	Sure.
	They said there was no magic tricks there.
	No magic.
	I couldn't explain how he did it, but it's no slight of hand.
	Those bottles were really stretching in his hand into something that was two feet long.
	A Coke bottle.
	Or a lighter.
	Okay, you heard what I said just as we went into break.
	The burning at the stake and all of that.
	We don't really, I guess, burn people at the stake, but I do wonder about the life expectancy of somebody who demonstrates supernatural powers.
	You know, a lot of people are going to think I wrote down the work of the devil, and then I got this other fast blast.
	This is from John in Westchester County, New York.
	All right?
	Ready for this?
	All right.
	I truly believe crop circles are a sign of evil in our time.
	My gut tells me that Satan is doing this to mock God.
	Jesus said, quote, the harvesters are few and the harvest is plenty.
	The devil has been harvesting souls to hell and he's boasting with crop circles.
	Okay, but see, Doctor, this is This is reality, brother.
	It's what's out there.
	As you could say, Art, you can rest your case.
	I mean, we like to think we've changed in a couple hundred years.
	We like to think we don't burn people at the stake, and yet we still have these belief systems that if you exhibit these abilities, you're going to be punished or killed or something like that, and burnt at the stake.
	And I think, subconsciously, we're all still afraid of it.
	Look, how many of us are afraid to really talk about these topics in the open with people that we know are neighbors?
	I mean, we We're comfortable talking about this at night, you know, between each other, but what about with, you know, people we know?
	We have this fear of it, and even I know this person in Japan was threatened by the Magician's Union, and they made him call it magic because they said it was, like, not legal to do it without saying it was really magic-y.
	They made him call it magic?
	In fact, he calls his place the Magic Parlor because the local Magician's Union was going to take him to court.
	What?
	Yes.
	Wait, wait, I'd like to understand how that one unfolded.
	Yes, I was told that he didn't, he wanted to say it was a psychic demonstration.
	Yes.
	And the local magician said it would put them out of work if he did this.
	In other words, you can't call it real?
	Yes, exactly.
	That's exactly right.
	And so he now calls it the magic parlor because they threatened to take him to court because it would be like unfair competition.
	Now, can you believe that?
	Now, let me give you a more serious example of this.
	Have you heard of Dr. Fritz from Brazil, the quantum psychic surgeon?
	I have.
	Yes, I have.
	Okay.
	He treats a thousand people a day with psychic surgery.
	And I know someone that was very skeptical, Masao Maki, who is a Japanese author.
	He runs a sushi restaurant in Boulder, also a very famous author in Japan.
	He went down to research this person.
	He calls himself a guru buster.
	He is a skeptic, but he concluded this is real, and he's shown me some videos of Dr. Fritz.
	This is actually a computer programmer that begins to channel, apparently, a German doctor that was deceased, you know, during World War II.
	I must tell you, Doctor, my eyes roll when you say channeling.
	I don't know why.
	I've always had a problem with it.
	Whatever you want to call it, something takes over his awareness, and he becomes a German doctor, even though he doesn't speak German in real life, and he operates on people.
	Well, that's certainly impressive.
	You can see the video.
	He operates on people in what manner?
	He operates on them with his hands, with all sorts of instruments, hammers and things.
	These people are away... Excuse me, hammers?
	Hammers and screwdrivers and... And screwdrivers?
	Machine tools.
	Machine tools?
	It's on the video... I've seen the video of this.
	Now, here's the amazing thing.
	Don't the medical authorities in Japan... They're not supposed to use screwdrivers and hammers.
	Here's the thing.
	Let me just say briefly, people feel no pain.
	You can see the video of them smiling while he's working on them.
	They feel no pain.
	While he's hammering away, right?
	Hammering away on their spinal columns and things.
	They're awake.
	No anesthesia.
	And it seems unbelievable, but Machi wrote this book, Brazil's Quantum Surgeon.
	Basically, it comes down to subtle energy and the fact that we're all, at some level, energy, and energy is fluid.
	Wait a minute, what's subtle about a hammer and a screwdriver?
	Well, what Dr. Fritts says is he doesn't really need those, but some people need to see some sort of medical instruments or something to convince them that, you know, something is actually happening.
	He says he actually doesn't even need to.
	Well, that would convince me.
	I mean, if I saw the doctor roll in this sterile tray with a whole bunch of, you know, big old hammers, claw hammers and screwdrivers and stuff, I'm out of there.
	I'm way out of there.
	You don't know whether to laugh or to shriek when you see this.
	I mean, it looks awfully scary, but the people walk away and they seem to be better.
	Well, here's what I'm telling you.
	How can he even do this without being a physician?
	When he acts like Dr. Fritz, and Dr. Fritz has actually worked through many different people over the years, this is the issue.
	A lot of, even in Brazil, they've said you don't have a medical license, you can't do this.
	In Japan, the government said you can come here if you don't actually do any of this sort of stuff with the machine tools and everything.
	If you just like talk to people and project energy, we'll let you come here.
	But just before he was about to arrive, when I was there last September, Just like Magicians Union did with this psychic, psychokinetic individual, the Doctors Union said this is kind of like unfair competition and all this, and they denied his visa, even though he had agreed not to actually operate on people.
	But he does this in Brazil, treating hundreds of people a day, and it's pretty well documented, and when they've measured his brain waves, unsurprisingly, it's elevated to about 40,000 Hertz.
	Now, this is getting into serious research, and I too have seen, gee, I don't know, 16-minute programs, I believe, that, for example, documented all kinds of incredible things about yogis that could control things that are uncontrollable in their own bodies.
	A lot of that's been documented.
	Yeah.
	It's the same kind of thing, huh?
	I think it's the same sort of thing.
	Again, it really challenges our belief systems about what is real.
	I mean, you may have some sort of a boggle point, as some people call it, to the idea of channeling, and I have my own boggle points to other types of ideas.
	We all do.
	You're right, you're right about that.
	No, we all do.
	It's part of being a human being, and I think it's healthy to be skeptical.
	At the same time, we know we live in a universe that is considerably more infinite than our minds can comprehend.
	And things, just imagine a couple hundred years ago, You know, people burning witches at the stake for things that people now pay for training in remote viewing, and people would have been killed for that.
	Go back a couple hundred years before that to the Middle Ages, where we really thought we were the center of the universe, like planet Earth was it.
	And they threatened Galileo and Copernicus with talking, in fact, that this could be an ordinary star, and we're just circling a star.
	So, we know that ideas change, and culture is very slow to, you know, evolve.
	Yes.
	Since people with these abilities tend to be quiet about it, then how many would you guess might be around, say, in the population of the US, that aren't making it public?
	People that, you know, can move things with their minds.
	People that can perhaps affect the thinking of others, for example.
	That's another thing, incidentally, that remote viewers are really quiet about.
	Yes.
	The people that worked originally with the Mobium program were like natural psychics, like Ingo and other people.
	And there's a certain percentage of the population that I really believe is naturally psychic.
	I'm not one of them, okay?
	I didn't think I could do any of this like most people probably believe.
	I don't know what the percentage is, but I would guess it's more than we're willing to admit.
	And if people weren't teased about this when they were smaller in school and were not ostracized, we might have more people that could really be helping us.
	Be more in the open about this.
	Well, no, if you think people get upset at somebody else's ability to say, just, I don't know, cause a glass to tip over on a table without touching it, or bend spoons, or whatever, if they really believe that person can do these things, they'll have one level of upsetness.
	If they think that somebody else can actually direct their thoughts, oh, doctor, they get really upset.
	Yeah.
	That's kind of scary to think about that.
	It does seem that there are people that can do that also.
	I haven't encountered that directly, but I think that everyone, to some degree, has the ability to learn how to do this.
	And that was my big learning experience from remote viewing.
	I didn't think that everybody could do this, but if you've taken a course in this and seen demonstrations, everybody has this ability to some extent or another.
	You know, we're not taught about this in school.
	And as we talked about earlier, I think the elites that kind of direct our society don't want people doing this.
	But I think everyone has the ability.
	In fact, the demonstration I saw in Japan, believe it or not, the lecture that he gave people at the end, he said the whole point of this was to show people, just very similarly to what your guest was talking about last night, that we live in a quantum universe where our belief systems get to direct our reality.
	That was the whole point of the show.
	And this is what we're going towards, is that our belief systems, they are what create the structure we see around us.
	It looks very solid out there, the physical world we live in, but it's really being constructed by our awareness.
	You did something really interesting.
	I had never thought about the experiment that you have apparently I've heard many stories about the properties of crop circles and the experiences and the measurements people have made inside crop circles.
	So anomalous, all of this information.
	But I never thought, gee, somebody could go out and create a crop circle, human work, and then see if the same kind of subtle energy abilities are present within that man-made circle.
	You did that, huh?
	Right, right.
	That's exactly what we've been doing.
	Fascinating.
	What were the results?
	Well, you know, I've been working with, you know, Ron Russell.
	He's been on your show in the past.
	And we've been working together since 1996.
	And we've had this idea once we realized people did make, you know, some of the crop circles that we were looking at.
	We didn't originally think that people could make any of them.
	But once we met Circle Makers, they told us, you know, when we go out there at night to make these, Really strange things happen.
	And no one, you know, this is the untold story of the crop circle.
	It's not only later on do we see strange things, it's while you're making them we see strange things.
	So Ron and I thought, well, if we make some, would we see strange things?
	These circle makers told us, and I'm specifically referring to people like Matt Williams and others who've talked to us extensively, That they were originally researchers, and they had this idea that if they went out and made small ones, maybe the whole process would speed up.
	They'd get more of them in the fields running, like a communication process.
	How did you even get crop circle makers to talk to you?
	They approached us.
	They had seen us there for several years, and we just thought these people were like hoaxers, that they're just kind of making up tall tales.
	They can't really do it.
	But they said to us, do you want to see us make crop circles?
	We're going to do one.
	The first one was in the daytime.
	And Linda Moulton Howell was there too.
	And they said, we've paid for the field.
	The farmer knows about it.
	If you just want to watch us make one, you're welcome to come.
	And we said, hey, we've got nothing to lose.
	We went out and watched Matt Williams and his team do a legal formation in the daytime.
	All right.
	So what exactly happened?
	Well, here's what happened, Art.
	We had been using this electrostatic measuring device.
	You might be familiar with this.
	It measures electrostatic charges in a laboratory environment.
	Yes, I am.
	And now you have experienced these kind of anomalous electrostatic charges in your amateur radio antennas.
	Yes.
	I've heard you talking to Bonnie in the past about these kind of anomalous energies you're getting.
	You can't explain.
	Absolutely correct.
	Right.
	Well, when I heard that show, I think it was about a year ago, my ears perked up because we have been measuring these crop circles with our static electricity meter.
	And we thought we had a litmus test for distinguishing the so-called real ones from the man-made ones, because the first three man-made ones that we knew were man-made that had been done in public and filmed, there was no energy charge in the meter.
	They were like statically flat across the whole circle.
	And other ones, the meter would jump around like a couple hundred volts as soon as you went into the circle.
	That's a lot.
	Yeah.
	And sometimes it's gone up to a thousand volts.
	That's a whole lot.
	The one we did in Kansas last year, and the pictures of this actually are on the website in the upper left-hand corner of the screen.
	If you click on pictures, you can see exactly what I'm talking about.
	We got like a 2,000 volt change in a circle that was only like 12 feet across, and it seemed to affect the film and everything.
	We can talk about that in a moment.
	Well, we thought, hey, if we watch Matt Williams make a crop circle, we can test our hypothesis.
	Does the man-made one affect the meter?
	And he, you know, he and his crew went out there and made them with the ropes and the boards, and we thought, you know, this is not like the other ones we've seen, but at least we'll be able to test it.
	Well, the meter started jumping around, and our whole theory that we'd had for the past year, that the man-made ones were statically flat, just went out the window.
	But hey, that's science.
	I mean, we had data, and it went against what our hypothesis was, but tough luck.
	What we realized was the man-made ones were creating this change in static charge too.
	We just didn't have a large enough sample.
	What were you in?
	A wheat field or what?
	We were in a wheat field.
	Alright, let's say we've got fairly dry wheat, tall dry wheat.
	Wouldn't the process of compacting that down You'd have wheat rubbing on wheat.
	You'd have the possibility of an electrostatic charge accumulating, I would think, wouldn't you?
	That's exactly what's going on.
	I think what you're getting towards is what we're coming to believe is true about them.
	It has something to do with the pressure, maybe the piezoelectric effect.
	Yes.
	You know what I'm getting at, yeah.
	I certainly do.
	There's a pressure there, and this is something that Colin Andrews pointed out to me.
	That normally when the stalks of wheat are standing there, they're like a capacitor because they're insulated by air.
	But when they're on the ground and flattened, they're now touching each other, physically touching.
	That's right.
	It could create energy currents circulating around in a swirling spiral motion in the circle that you don't normally have in a wheat field.
	And that in itself could be generating energies which I believe, I mean we believe, the people I work with, Ron and others, That could be responsible for all sorts of changes in the wheat plant, irrespective of whether it was created by ionic plasmas, or stomper boards, or extraterrestrials, which really do leave crops for those plants.
	Pressure is changing.
	Okay, then why wouldn't it be reasonable to project, Doctor, that the simple creation of an electrostatic field In some specific formation, in other words, you could create an artificial electrostatic field, for example, in a room or in a, I don't know, a large aircraft hangar or something.
	You could set up instruments that would create an electrostatic field in a certain pattern around somebody and then you might begin to measure.
	You could even control the intensity of the electrostatic charge, for example, Doctor.
	And get in the middle of this and see what kind of things manifest themselves.
	Well, that's definitely a very good experiment.
	Is it?
	I think it is.
	It's because when you make those energy changes, and you know that static electricity doesn't have to have a lot of amps.
	You know, you could have high voltage but low amperage.
	Very high voltage and very low current, yes.
	Right.
	But you know what subtle energy says?
	If you don't need a lot of charge to make something happen, it could be a subtle field.
	Now, here's the thing.
	If it's in a coherent shape, like a crystalline form, one of these sacred geometry shapes that you see in crop circles, and it has that kind of electrostatic pattern that is different from the surrounding field, it really could create an effect that you may not get if you don't have a shape there.
	In other words, the shape combined with the electrostatic field.
	Well, that's why I said.
	In, for example, a big hangar, you create an electrostatic field and duplicate, oh, I don't know, pick a crop circle that's had a very large anomalous effect when people enter it and duplicate that and create an electrostatic field.
	You could even, as I say, control the level of the charge and then measure paranormal phenomena of those who are inside that field and you could even test at different voltage ranges.
	You could do that.
	I'm not sure if the static charge is the only thing that's going on there, but that's certainly an interesting experiment.
	It's certainly an interesting idea.
	Well, that would either rule in or rule out the static field itself as a causative agent in the phenomena that's experienced by those in the middle of these crop circles, man-made or otherwise.
	Doctor, hold on, we're at the top of the hour.
	From the high desert, in the middle of the night, this night we're talking about crop circles.
	And stuff.
	Actually, a lot of other stuff along with it.
	But right now, crop circles.
	Fascinating.
	The night time, the right time for this kind of talk.
	Sweet dreams are made of this.
	Who am I to disagree?
	I travel the world and the seven seas.
	Everybody's looking for something.
	Some of them want to use you.
	Some of them want to get used by you.
	Some of them want to abuse you.
	How about a free CD?
	catch your attention subscribe to the after dark don't you love her ways?
	tell me what you say don't you love her as she's walking out the door?
	all your love all your love
	all your love all your love
	all your love is gone just sing a lonely song
	of my dream of dream seven horses seem to be on the mark
	Wanna take a ride?
	Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	to the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	And to reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
	You know, I was just thinking, uh, with regard to the conversation we had last hour with Dr. Hein and the one coming up, he's right.
	You know, my antenna is this really gigantic thing towering 75 feet into the air.
	All the way around a thousand feet.
	One thousand feet.
	All the way around.
	Electrostatically charged.
	Big time.
	Now, it's not in the shape of a crop circle or anything.
	But, you know, it is all around me.
	You know, about a year ago, I remember the sudden excitement in the crop circle community
	about the measuring of electrostatic charges.
	I remember that suddenly that was...
	The answer, we were going to be able to separate the real, true crop circles from the man-made baloney, and that was going to be our savior in doing that.
	Well, maybe not then, is the answer, I guess.
	According to what you just said, Doctor, so is that right?
	In other words, electrostatic measurement is not going to be the key to judging the reality, the origin of a crop circle, man's hand or not.
	No, I think that's right, Art.
	I don't think you can easily tell the origin of a crop formation.
	I think it's been assumed in the research community that if you get weird effects around a crop circle, it had to have a very weird cause.
	And I think what we're learning now is that the crop circle itself, just the shape in a living material, actually has effects on the surrounding field and in the crop circle that produce weird effects, but it doesn't necessarily mean that something down into the field to do that. It's just that the circle
	itself, well, I think it acts like a crystal radio. Did you play with those when you were
	a kid? The radios have a crystal in it and you don't need a battery. It just seems to
	operate with just the power of the radio wave coming through the crystal.
	You know I did, Simeon.
	Yeah, I bet you did.
	Listen, so let's get down to cases.
	Crop circles.
	How many crop circles are without question not man-made?
	We have to talk about the time period.
	I think before the 90s, I think a large percentage of them were non-man-made.
	You know, they go back in history thousands of years.
	And there are references in the Dead Sea Scrolls to strange lights in the fields, strange markings, the mowing devil in the 1600s in England, and even in our own century, the Tully saucer nests in Australia, and they also had them in New Zealand at the same time.
	I've spoken to people that have had friends that have seen UFOs in the vicinity where crop circles were found the next day.
	World areas of grass and wheat And, you know, there's a wonderful book that documents the secret history of crop circles.
	And it talks about all the pre-modern crop circles, which are really interesting.
	Most of these, though, I want to point out are simple circles or groups of circles.
	They're not the elaborate patterns that we tend to see today.
	Yes, but without question, Doctor, I'm just a layman, but I've watched crop circles very carefully and in my estimation There have been a few that it would have been completely, totally impossible for man to have made.
	I mean, I have no other way to put it.
	You look at them and there's just no blinking way.
	I would have thought the same thing several years ago.
	And now you don't.
	I don't.
	I have met the human circle makers.
	In opening minds, I document how I saw them make a circle at night.
	They are very They operate with a military precision that you would not believe.
	Do you now believe that all crop circles are man-made?
	No.
	No.
	I think there are some that are not made by people.
	But I believe, and I'm not alone in this, I believe that the elaborate artistic ones that we enjoy looking at so much, the big elaborate artistic ones, are the work of human circle-making artists.
	They're not hoaxes.
	These are people that believe in what they call natural magic.
	They believe in subtle energies one way or another because they believe that if they go out and make a crop circle like that, it will create magic that all of us can enjoy together.
	It creates it while they are making the circle.
	They see balls of light and UFOs and have strange experiences.
	They see shadow people when they're in the crop circles making them.
	Strange experiences with time change.
	The group that I was with in the Cheryl Formation, which I document in Opening Minds, the Cheryl 2000 Formation, they apparently gained about 45 minutes of time.
	They all seem to experience this.
	I wasn't wearing a watch, so I can't verify, but they believe this happened.
	It's not uncommon, and this is what keeps them doing this.
	And they make it because they believe that people who come into the circles later will have magical experiences, and this is good for us to experience.
	So yes, the answer to your question is There was a time when I didn't believe humans could do it either, because I've heard all the evidence, many years, many of the evidence from your show and other places, that architectural firms said, you know, it would take them four days in the daytime to do this.
	You're familiar with all those stories.
	I am, Simeon, and so how could man have done some of these?
	I mean, they're so intricate, so large, so massive, the simple scale of them would preclude anything but an army of well-trained people from doing them.
	You know, these people have been working on these for about 10 years.
	There are at least about 10 groups in England that are working throughout the summer to make these.
	You can see them on documentary.
	Some of them are interviewed on Larry Newman's new documentary, Circle Speak, which we should all get a hold of.
	It's a very balanced presentation of the whole phenomena.
	You will hear interviews with circle makers, Circle Speak.
	It's a new video about it, and I have no connection to this.
	I just think it's a good presentation.
	I didn't think it was possible for them to do this until I saw them work at night, and believe me, Art, the wheat goes down very quickly with those stomper boards, and after 10 years of practice, they have gotten very, very good.
	If you'll notice, early on in the crop circle season, the circles will be relatively simple, and they get more complex towards August.
	They're practicing, and they're learning, and by the summer, after the winter, you know, they're a little rusty, they get better, and I'm totally convinced now that the big complicated ones, all of them, I believe, are
	made by human circle-making teams.
	And only the simple ones?
	Ironically, the simple ones seem to be still the work of some other unknown force.
	And the circle-makers that I know have said, Simeon, before the 1990s, before the Doug and Dave era,
	You know, the two guys from the pub.
	They were actually artists.
	I think they had some pretty decent motivations for doing it.
	They weren't really hoaxing.
	They were interested in making art.
	But nonetheless, they said we don't know who was making them in the early 80s.
	It could have been extraterrestrials.
	And I believe that crop circles are a language that were taught to us by extraterrestrials or some other type of intelligence.
	To encourage people eventually to learn how to do this.
	But Doctor, let's talk about the scale, please.
	I've looked at some of these and over 10 acres, for example, I mean just monstrous things that are so intricate, no footprints around.
	I want to know how they do it without a trace.
	In England, you have an advantage because there are these so-called tramlines, the lines that the tractors use to go down to the field.
	We don't have them in the United States, but these tramlines allow you to enter into the field without actually walking on the wheat.
	You can walk down the tramlines and you'll notice many crop formations are positioned along the tramlines.
	Now, researchers have said, well, that was the greater intelligence positioning those circles just in the right way to the tramlines.
	It's really the way the circle makers get into the fields without leaving footprints.
	If you want a larger circle, you just get more and more people.
	You remember the big one from Millkill 2001, the mother of all crossovers?
	I surely do.
	I don't want to disillusion people.
	I believe these circles are still real, as I've said, no matter who makes them.
	They have these strange effects, and we can talk about that in a moment.
	But that particular circle was made by between 10 and 15 people.
	They were up high on a hill, on the downs as they say in England, which is actually a hill in our language.
	They've probably had about eight hours to work, and they don't care if it's raining, to be honest.
	They're going to do that circle anyway.
	It's very wet and cold, no matter what the weather conditions are in the summer there.
	And they believe in these enough, they're that motivated, let me put it that way, that they will go out and make those circles.
	Even though, to our eyes, it looks impossible, so does the Sistine Chapel, you know?
	What about the work of Dr. Levengood?
	In other words, the molecular changes in the stalks, and the stalks not breaking, as one continually demonstrates they would with the board effect, I mean, these things are just laid down.
	They're not broken, and then we have detectable molecular changes.
	How do they do that?
	Well, W.C.
	Levengood, I think we found out recently, he isn't actually a doctor, he's a research scientist.
	The flaw in that line of research, as far as I'm concerned, is that it makes an assumption that if you get molecular changes to the plant, there has to be some sort of energy beaming itself into the plant to do that, right?
	Because if we put those plants in a microwave oven, and we microwave them, we're going to get the same results.
	Bingo!
	It's also possible, and I think this has to be tested as another possibility, that once you make the crop formation, that different energies are going to be operating in that field.
	And again, this is consistent with what we know from subtle energy science, with the science of a conditioned space, as it's called.
	The energy patterns change.
	It could perhaps be due to electrostatic charges or some other types of energy that we don't know.
	But when you have that shape in the field, the plants begin to change.
	I actually have pictures right now up on the Opening Minds website of a formation we made last summer in the Cherville area of England where we paid the farmer, went and made the formation and we got bent nodes.
	And I have pictures of those bent nodes up on the website and you can see them.
	I went back the next day and they were already there.
	What that's caused by is the plant trying to kind of raise itself up into a vertical position again.
	So there's a lot of things about plants that I don't think we understand and I think to make the arguments that the BLT team has made You need to have the proper controls in place.
	It's very simple to do that, Art.
	You just need to make a lot of man-made circles, preferably around the same time, in the same area where you find the other ones, and honestly test those plants too.
	I'm not talking about one or two man-made formations, I'm talking like a good sample size, like 30, like we're trying to do.
	Make a lot of them, and then compare the results, and just see for yourself.
	Are they really different, or are they the same from the ones that we don't really know the authorship?
	Another thing that happens in plants are what are called heat shock proteins.
	When you put a plant into stress, different types of proteins are produced to try to help the plant through that stress and those have a very strong effect on the plant.
	Those sorts of chemicals could also affect the molecular structure.
	So you're saying no matter man-made, alien-made, earth environment made, whatever causes this to happen is perhaps not even important.
	What is important is the effect that's created when they're made.
	Yes.
	I have seen, personally, and I'm a skeptical person like you are, but I have seen so many weird things around crop circles, Art.
	I know they're real.
	Fine, let's hear about them.
	What have you seen around crop circles, man-made or otherwise?
	Okay, let's go back to 1999, when we were just learning that humans could even make some of this, and I didn't believe it back in 99, but I learned about it in 2000.
	We visited a formation called the Devil's Den Formation.
	People that are familiar with crop circles will know this formation.
	It happened near a dolmen that's called the Devil's Den because Christians named it that way.
	It was a pagan, a Celtic burial mound.
	I went in there.
	I was actually with Masaomaki, the crop circle research from Japan.
	All of our batteries failed at the same time.
	Oh, yes.
	Everyone who came into that formation, their batteries all failed, and I got it on videotape before my camcorder batteries failed.
	In total, I know of at least five sets of batteries that failed in that formation, and this is the most amazing thing.
	I mean, someone went to Mallory Battery Factory, and they said, what could do this, okay?
	And what did they say?
	The only thing that they knew about that could cause batteries to fail like that was nuclear radiation.
	Nuclear radiation.
	But there isn't any nuclear radiation in crop circles.
	People have gone into Geiger counters time and time again.
	And as far as I know, I mean, someone can correct me, I don't think anyone found any nuclear radiation.
	It's some sort of other effect, and again, I want to suggest it could be an electrostatic effect or the subtle energy effect.
	I've seen that happen with my own eyes, and when you see everyone's devices that are brand new, and again, those pictures are on my website, the Opening Minds website also, you can see the pictures of the batteries that just failed.
	When you see that with your own eyes, you'll know that crop circles are real.
	Now, we later found out, about two years later, who the author of that particular circle was, with a very reasonable degree of certainty.
	Because after a while, you get to know all of these different teams.
	If you're considered trustworthy, they'll all begin to talk to you.
	So there is nothing about, for example, an electrostatic charge being able to do what you just talked about, killing batteries?
	No, I know.
	So what could be doing it?
	There is another energy in crop formations Let me just tell you something about when this happened.
	The startling thing to me was that my battery failed in my static electricity measuring device and in my camcorders.
	I'm talking at the edge of the circle art.
	I mean literally the edge.
	Talking something 200 feet and you just crossed into it, you know, just over the edge where the weed is still standing where it's pushed down.
	Blip!
	All the batteries are gone.
	It's like there's a wall of energy there.
	It's real enough to affect your equipment and you know you can feel it too.
	Sometimes people are in there and they're saying, I really feel charged.
	Or sometimes they make you feel kind of sick.
	And dowsers will go in there and their dowsing rods will start moving around.
	And the most amazing thing to me was this doubles den formation.
	A dowser came in and where she got the largest change in her dowsing rods was exactly where I had measured the largest static charge.
	Believe it or not, it's in the smallest circles, not in the biggest ones where you get that big charge change.
	Now, again, I don't know if... You're suggesting that electrostatic charge can't affect the batteries, and I don't know enough about, you know, about... No, I don't either.
	I just, you know, normal common sense tells me an electrostatic charge in the air, no, wouldn't affect a battery's charge.
	I don't see how.
	Anyway, what else has happened within these circles?
	What people have seen a lot, and you've heard about this of course, and the listeners, co-listeners have heard about this, the balls of light.
	These are actually seen while people are making crop formations.
	That's right, and now you're telling me that in the man-made formations, the crop circle makers are doing this to bring on exactly this kind of phenomena.
	Yes.
	They want to see these balls of light.
	Yes.
	They want to see the balls of light, the UFOs, whatever else happens to come in.
	And to be honest, the results sometimes terrify them.
	There was a scientist who recently determined that a ball of plasma, plasma balls, can exist in the atmosphere and appear to be, for reasons inexplicable to them, energy-sustaining.
	In other words, they continue to generate enough energy to keep this plasma ball going You know, it should dissipate, it should go away or explode or do something, but instead it keeps going.
	Now, where is that energy coming from to sustain these plasma balls, which might explain light?
	I don't know.
	It's a great question.
	We don't really know.
	They seem to be intelligently controlled.
	You've seen the videos.
	I have, actually, yes.
	And for those who haven't, explain what it looks like.
	Typically, and there's about 12 good videos that I think are the real thing that tourists and other people have taken, just happen to be around those areas where the crop circles are.
	Something will come over the hill and it will move right towards the crop formation.
	It will speed up.
	It will slow down.
	It will make right angle turns.
	In one case, a video that was taken by Steve Alexander, I think back in 1990 or 91, it actually went from one crop circle over to another crop circle about a half mile away.
	These, I measured the speed of one of these near Barbary Castle from 1999.
	There's a pretty famous video from that one.
	The thing was moving nearly 200 miles an hour once it started to speed up.
	Now, no birds fly that fast, unless some of them when they're, you know, a direct dive, but nothing moves that fast that I know right above the wheat.
	It looks like it's intelligently controlled, and I'm confident it's either a life form that we don't understand, or it's someone's probe to investigate these crop formations.
	Because they're intelligently controlled, and yet they're being attracted to man-made formations as well as the other type also.
	So, do you believe they are a product of them, or the formations that is, and these lights are a product of the formations, or they are simply a phenomena observing the fact that one of these has been made.
	In other words, by making one of them we have attracted someone's attention.
	Which do you think it is?
	I think it's the latter.
	Oh, you really do?
	Absolutely.
	In the videos, they come over the hill.
	I mean, they come from out of nowhere.
	And, you know, in the Steve Alexander video, you know, right before he started filming, he said he actually went into the formation.
	It was like exploring it, like right down in the wheat.
	It disappeared for a few seconds, and then it popped out again, and then it goes to another formation, and then it's seen passing over a tractor, and the tractor stalled.
	The tractor driver saw it, And he said it looked like a large, luminous beach ball.
	Now, he is driving a diesel tractor.
	They don't have much electrical stuff going on in them at all.
	There's not much electronics in the diesel tractor, but it stalled anyway, and then it just started again.
	You can see it on the video.
	You can see the tractor stopping, and then it starts up.
	They have an electrical property that can affect equipment, and they also, I mean, they look intelligently controlled.
	And so, I don't think the crop circle is creating them.
	I think the crop circle is attracting them.
	There are other cases where circle makers have told me they went into a crop formation, they started to make one, and balls of light showed up, and they actually ran out of there in terror, because it frightened them.
	So sometimes they show up and say, you shouldn't be here, you shouldn't be making this.
	That's another possibility.
	And that happens sometimes.
	They show up before the crop circle is even finished, but someone is watching those crop circles.
	I don't know whether it's Extraterrestrials in the upper atmosphere, wondering what the humans are doing down on Earth, or what.
	Or it's a life form that's indigenous to the planet, as some people believe.
	But they're real.
	And you can see them for yourself on the video.
	Hold it right there.
	Dr. Simeon Hine is my guest.
	We're discussing crop circles.
	Ones made by humans, ones made by... Well, we just don't know.
	Anyway, the phenomena associated, actually, with both.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Music playing No I would not give you false hope on this strange morning
	day But to mother and child we only want this only emotion day
	Oh, I'm getting off my mind.
	I can't follow life on me.
	I remember a Saturday.
	I know that they let me.
	It just don't work out that way.
	In the course of a lifetime of others Over and over again But I would not give you false hope now On this strange and lonely day But the mother and child reunion Is only a motion away To recharge Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	Call 1-800-618-8255, east of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1222.
	To recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	Tis indeed.
	I'm convinced we're getting some very, extremely valuable information this morning.
	Dr. Simeon Hine is my guest, and he's done more than certainly I have and most of us would have done.
	He's gone to England, he's met with the crop circle makers, he's done a meaningful investigation of crop circles, and so therefore he's certainly worth listening to, and he's made some, I think, very serious discoveries that we've got to think a lot about, that man-made circles Exhibit the same anomalous effects as those made by, well, we know not who, right?
	but the same measurable anomalous.
	Dr. Hine, how long do we know or do we know how long these effects
	remain within the created circles?
	Are they active forever?
	Do they fade as the circle gets older?
	Do we know anything about that?
	That's a very good question.
	It seems from our research that the effects do fade away as the circle gets older, and of course eventually it's harvested.
	Formation that I referred to before, the Devil's Den Formation of 1999, I actually went back to England in October of that year.
	The formation had already been harvested, the whole field had been harvested.
	It had not been replanted yet.
	I went back to that spot with the same equipment I originally had from that July, previous July, and there was no effect on the static meter anymore.
	There was no effect on my camcorder.
	There was nothing happening.
	You get really high marks in my opinion for doing all of this.
	What's driving you to do all of this?
	When you spend 27 years in school, from kindergarten to PhD, the only reason you would do that is because you have a love of the truth.
	You really need to know the answers.
	And some of us who study this area of crop circles were just so fascinated by it, we just have to know what's going on.
	And I just feel driven to find out what is really happening here.
	It's one thing to listen to people talk about it, but you need to verify with your own experience and your own data.
	Yes.
	And that's what we do.
	We really want to test these things because we believe crop circles are real.
	That's why we do this.
	We know they're real.
	It isn't a question of Man-made or hoaxed or real the element of time the element of time doctor of missing time or of time in some manner shifting so that our perception is Well, it's almost like It's almost like time travel in a way doctor.
	It's missing time And what do you suppose there could be about such a field that we're talking about, created, that would enter into that aspect of things, to warp time, or to change time, or to change our perception of time, whatever?
	Yeah, I mean, there was something very strange going on in those fields.
	I haven't experienced the time travel myself, but my colleague Ron Russell told me a very interesting story where he went to Ostensibly just to go get to the car back to get a flashlight or something.
	And he seemed to be gone in his own time for like three hours.
	And then met a group of people speaking ancient English around a campfire.
	Oh?
	Yes.
	They didn't even seem to belong.
	He couldn't barely understand what they were saying.
	It seems all wrong.
	Like something out of a totally different time period like a thousand years ago.
	Like he went through another dimension.
	Exactly.
	He got back to the circle he wanted to show.
	He said, look, I found something.
	And from their point of view, he'd only been gone five minutes or something like that.
	From his point of view, it seemed like he'd been gone for an hour.
	And then when he tried to go find the campfire and everything again, he couldn't find it.
	And the car was right next to him the whole time.
	It was a very strange experience.
	And other researchers have reported similar types of experiences where a friend of theirs went back into the circle.
	And from their point of view in the car, waiting for them, it seemed like hours.
	Yet, for the person in the circle, it maybe seemed like 10 minutes.
	And that seems like time is getting dilated or warped in some way.
	Which, by the way, is consistent with Relativity Theory, Special Relativity Theory, that time can be different from different points of view.
	And so, I'm not sure exactly what accounts for it, but it does seem that that may be happening.
	Some experiments I've heard of that have been done with watches, is that if you take two very good quality watches and you
	leave one in the circle and leave one outside that sometimes you can see a
	a noticeable change where there shouldn't be any have you actually seen that?
	I haven't seen that and again like most of these stories I'd really like to see it
	for myself but it's certainly a possibility and certainly with these
	people's experience Well, doesn't all of this just scream for the creation of an electrostatic field in the shape of some crop circle in a laboratory environment and then testing inside?
	Now, maybe, as you as you point out, maybe, maybe there's something more to it than just the electrostatic field, but maybe not.
	Well, can I suggest what that could be?
	Let her rip.
	Yeah.
	There is an area that we haven't talked about yet.
	All right.
	Which I know you're very interested in.
	It's human intention.
	Oh, yes.
	We were talking about this at the very beginning of the show and of course you talked last night with Dr. Frank the same sort of discussion.
	It's coast to coast.
	You know, it's talked about all the time.
	How does human conscience affect reality?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Subtle Energy Sciences has documented evidence that people's thoughts affect physical reality.
	The documentation is in the form of very subtle temperature changes and the reproduction rates of fruit flies and things of this nature.
	If you have two objects and you have a group of meditators meditate on one of those objects that are structurally identical, you take the object that was meditated upon and put it next to fruit flies or water or other types of processes and you measure the processes going on there.
	They'll be different from the controlled object that was not meditated upon.
	And this has been documented many times by Dr. William Tiller.
	What he calls it, an area that's around a space that has an object in it that people are focused on, a conditioned space.
	Now, the human circle makers that I know, and this is a very well-kept secret, they actually say prayers before they make their circles.
	And I'm told that most of the groups do this.
	About 90% of the circle making groups, they say prayers And incantations.
	Wow!
	And, wait a minute, and incantations.
	Yes.
	Ooh, there's some snow up there.
	Prayers, okay.
	It's more like incantations and intentions are set.
	What sort of incantations?
	The ones that I've been around in the circles that I've seen made at night.
	They are Incantations for planetary evolution, planetary healing, magic, and positive things.
	We're not talking about black magic here.
	We're talking about positive intentions.
	Basically, the prayer will go something like this, that may everyone who enters this circle experience some sort of magic in their life.
	Now, we know from the research of Dr. Larry Dossey and other people about the effects of prayer and intention.
	That it does affect people's ability to heal.
	And I suspect it has an effect on the plants in that space because the plants are still alive when the circle is made.
	And so this is another element I want to add to the equation beyond the electrostatic charge is the human intention.
	That this could have a lot to do with the effects of the circles.
	Because you don't only have the human circle makers, you have some sort of interaction with the intelligence of the plants.
	And just like a colony of ants, a single ant doesn't have a lot of neurons in it.
	If you take the whole ant colony, it can act intelligently.
	I suspect a whole field of wheat can do something in a similar way.
	It's just a possibility.
	Well, alright.
	Is that all it is?
	Is it a possibility?
	So you're pretty far out on a limb when you start saying there's some interaction between the people's intentions And the lives of these plants.
	You're pretty far out on a limb when you say that.
	The electrostatic field part I can buy, and I guess I can understand, and I would urge more experimentation.
	But when you start talking about, I don't know, some kind of interaction with the plants, that's... Is that just conjecture?
	No.
	You know the work of Cleve Baxter.
	Yes, oh, I do.
	The Secret Lives of Plants.
	Yes, of course.
	I've seen the documentation from that at some of these remote viewing conferences where they pulled out the whole data sheet that was printed out by these different machines that were measuring these plants' response in relationship with the cells that they take from someone's T-cells and they will do something to the other T-cells and see these T-cells in another room react from the cells from the same person.
	Well, this data, I'm just saying it suggests, and when you're being scientific, you want to be open to all the different possibilities, it suggests that living things have an awareness of one another, and that intention really does matter.
	I think Cleve Baxter's data suggests that plants have an awareness and intelligence that perhaps conventional science hasn't fully recognized, and I think it's possible, again, we certainly need to do more, you know, experiments, but it's possible the plants are reacting to the intention of the humans making the formation, They may even enjoy being made into a crop circle.
	I mean, they're going to get eaten anyway in a couple weeks.
	You might as well become a crop circle on your way to the cereal plant.
	I don't know.
	It's a possibility.
	Seriously, the data suggests from all of this study, and it's being done at Duke University right now with the Mitchell Krukoff study, of the effect of prayer on healing, and this is another type of prayer perhaps, but It's real, and it's a subtle energy effect, and I think it could be responsible for some of the effects that we see.
	It certainly is one possibility.
	I was just laughing at the prospect of plants enjoying being made into a circle.
	Yeah, sure, I know I'm toast in a couple of weeks, and I'm gonna go buy the tractor, so go ahead, plow me down, make me magic.
	Well, why not?
	But, on the other hand, I know the work that Cleave did.
	You know, you might as well take a second and explain to some of the audience out there what he demonstrated.
	It is awfully important.
	I mean, you've got to consider these experiments.
	It'll set you thinking all night long, folks.
	I mean, listen to this.
	Explain what Cleave proved.
	Well, the experiments I'm familiar with are where, you know, Various sensitive measuring devices were hooked up to plants and in some cases the plants could sense that another plant was being destroyed in another room.
	When that person came into the room, the plant killer, the plants would react or they did experiments with yogurt.
	They took common culture from a single yogurt tub and they separated them into different petri dishes.
	Yes.
	They put them in different rooms and they do something to one sample of yogurt and the other yogurt reacts.
	Believe it or not.
	Or the T-cells taken from a sample in your mouth, they'll take them into separate rooms and they will do one thing to the first set of T-cells and the other T-cells will react the same way as the first set of T-cells.
	Now what this is called in biology is entrainment.
	And we know that living systems can become entrained to one another.
	Or is it entanglement?
	Well, of course, exactly.
	That's the other possibility.
	It's quantum entanglement.
	They are, at a quantum level, subatomically linked.
	And, of course, this is what quantum mechanics says is possible.
	I don't know What actually accounts for it?
	Some people want to argue with the quantum effect, and other people like William Tiller want to argue that it's just an extension of classical electromagnetics, but he calls it magneto-electrics, because It seems to suggest particles moving faster than the speed of light.
	Just an extension of existing physics.
	But no matter what you think the cause is, something's going on.
	And it's interesting to think about the possibility.
	Human intention or external from human intention?
	Completely external from human intention?
	I think that the human intention has an effect.
	And even the Cleve Baxter's experiments show that The plants have their own intelligence independent of the intention.
	So if you put all that together you're getting a whole lot of interaction going on one way or another.
	Boy, I'll say.
	Yeah.
	Where does your research go from here?
	In other words, what do you do next with regard to crop circles in trying to figure out the nature of the field that's being created?
	You know, at the Institute for Resonance we go to England every summer to We pay the farmers to use their fields and we make crop formations.
	We want to find out the variables that are responsible for reducing the strange effects that we see.
	And the real thing is to find out, what exactly is it that creates these strange effects in the crop formations?
	Is there something that we can narrow down?
	Is it a particular shape?
	A particular frequency?
	You're familiar with the area of physics called cymatics, that shapes can create sounds?
	No.
	Well, this is something that actually I think they discovered about a hundred years ago, is that if you take, you know, like a pile of sand on a metal plate, and you broadcast sound into the plate, these sand grains will spontaneously form into a coherent pattern.
	And as you change the note that you're broadcasting into the metal plate, the sand grains will rearrange themselves into different shapes, right before your eyes.
	Coherently.
	It's almost like magic.
	But it's some sort of principle of physics where Energy, in the form of sound, is converted into a shape.
	Now, the other possibility is also true, that the shapes themselves generate infrasound.
	You can't actually hear it, but that any shape, actually, if there's some sort of energy around it, will generate a sound.
	So you're going to go look for sound?
	Sound is certainly one possibility to look for.
	It's almost like these crop circles can be tuned to a specific frequency by virtue of the shape.
	If we find out which particular shapes generate those effects, we could create our own formations, perhaps even in your own garden or on a small scale, not necessarily on a large scale, but something that we could reduce to a more manageable size that the average person could engage in.
	Once again, I ask, how do we even know we have to have plants?
	I think, you know, I know that you've been suggesting From the beginning of the show, that maybe we don't.
	And that's possible.
	You know, maybe we don't need the plants.
	I've just, where I've seen these things happen have happened in plants.
	I think it's like a living material.
	It's like a crystalline lattice.
	I think you need the lattice work.
	But there aren't too many things that we know for sure.
	One of the things we seem to now know for sure is there's an electrostatic field that's created.
	Whether it's by aliens or men, doesn't matter.
	When it's done, there it is, an electrostatic field.
	We know that's so, right?
	Well, here's the thing.
	Most circles will show this, but some of them won't.
	Now, why do some of the circles show this electrostatic differential, I would call it?
	Yes.
	And some of them don't.
	All right.
	We don't know.
	We don't know?
	No, we don't know.
	The one we made in Kansas, which I referred to before, was about 12 feet across.
	It took us about five minutes.
	All of the slides that we took of that had these weird light patterns going across them.
	None of the other slides and the camera were affected.
	It wasn't something that affected the whole roll of film.
	Only the pictures of the crop formation.
	Again, the pictures are on the Opening Minds website.
	People can take a look.
	It's an expensive F3 Nikon camera that does not leak light.
	Okay.
	And you can see these weird... Now, we're not the only ones that have seen this.
	David Kingston gave a demonstration of this in England at one of the Crop Circle conferences a couple years ago on his film.
	He was in a crop circle and just started snapping shots and later developed it and he saw these weird things.
	Well, we got them too!
	Now, what are those weird lights that are coming across The formations that we know it's man-made because we made it.
	We don't know all the variables.
	We certainly need more funding to do this research on an extensive scale.
	But I think it's very important for us to understand what's going on here because I really suspect we're dealing with a form of advanced technology.
	Why is it reasonable to conclude, for example, that the lights that you refer to and that are seen by so many Are, in fact, the product of an electrostatic field.
	In the atmosphere, directly above the created circle, you do have an electrostatic field, and that goes up into the air, into the atmosphere.
	The only thing that ruins that idea is, you said it comes zipping off, you know, or zipping toward the formations from some other direction.
	If it was always above the The crop circle itself, one could surmise that the same field is creating that light.
	Yeah, I know it's another possibility.
	The balls of light seem to have their own charge and affect equipment as they zip on by.
	The crop formation itself seems to have its own energetic charge.
	Perhaps they attract each other.
	The balls of light are attracted to the circle, but there's a number of possibilities.
	You'll recall that pilots have mentioned from time to time Uh, even on this show, that when they've flown over the crop formation that their instruments were affected briefly.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	I mean, Busty Taylor reported that ten years ago.
	Okay, implication there, this field, whatever the hell it is, extends way up.
	Yeah.
	It's what it suggests.
	What we really need to do is to narrow down the variables a little bit.
	But, you know, you don't want to narrow them down too fast.
	You could be trying to force them into a paradigm to try to make it make sense.
	And it might be something that you're not expecting.
	So you have to kind of go carefully, just so that you don't eliminate some of the possibilities of what it is.
	The electrostatic charge is one aspect of it, and it's a fascinating part of it.
	But what else is going on there?
	You know, what is generating this?
	And I suspect, to get back to your question, that you need a latticework, just like a crystal needs a latticework.
	To do the amazing things that crystals do in our watches and television sets and radios and things like that.
	You need some sort of structure there.
	And I believe that the wheat stalks or whatever plant material you're working with acts like a latticework because it's planted in a very regular way by the seed driller, right?
	Yeah, absolutely so.
	It's isotropic, as we say.
	It's kind of uniform in all directions.
	Now, you come in there and you disturb this very evenly distributed material.
	You disturb the force.
	Yes, exactly.
	Hold on.
	We're here at the top of the hour.
	We'll be right back.
	This is Coast.
	Tuesday afternoon.
	I'm just beginning to see, Now I'm on my way.
	It doesn't matter to me.
	I'm chasing...
	To be continued...
	you Be it sight, sound, smell or touch, there's something inside that we need so much.
	The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sound, or the strength of an oak when it's deep in the ground.
	The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
	Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing?
	To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing?
	To have all these things in our memories?
	I'm the Easter to come.
	Yeah!
	Rise, my magic sword.
	Take this place, I'm the strength.
	Just call me.
	Right, take up the throne, take my place, I've got a seat, it's all free.
	Wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	8 8 2 5 5 East of the Rockies 1 800 8 2 5 5 0 3 3 first time callers may recharge at
	1 7 7 5 7 2 7 12 22 the wildcard line is open at 1 And to call out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator, and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM, with Art Bell, from the Kingdom of Nine.
	Tis indeed.
	I just popped up a new webcam image for you, a new photograph of me sitting here, doing the program, so I thought I'd enjoy that.
	Here in the last hour, Dr. Simeon Hine is my guest, and we're about to open the lines for Dr. Hine.
	He said a lot of incredible things, really incredible things tonight about crop circles, what we believe about them, what we don't believe about them, what he's discovered about them.
	And some of it is pretty fantastic stuff, to be sure.
	I never in a million years would have imagined, frankly, that some of those intricate ten-acre formations made over such a short time possibly could have been man-made, but he says yes.
	And then he also says the same anomalous effects are present in those as the ones made by, well, whoever they are.
	So we've got a lot to deal with.
	If you have a question, that's what phones are for.
	All right.
	Once again, Dr. Simeon Hine.
	Dr. from Ryan in Mesa, Arizona.
	This is kind of intriguing.
	You know, I get these little computer messages as we go, and he blasted me this one.
	Art, since sound is energy, what if the changes in voltage read by these instruments are indicative of some sort of inaudible sound?
	Different levels of energy equal different frequencies of sound.
	Are the spheres being called to the circles by these sounds?
	I like it.
	I thought you might.
	I like it.
	Yeah, it's good.
	We don't know what's going on here, but there's a lot of exciting possibilities.
	And I like what he wrote.
	It's good.
	I heard you say you're going to move into the arena of sound in your investigation.
	I thought, uh-huh.
	Well, there we go.
	That and the fact they're attracted to the circles might add together.
	All right, to the telephones.
	You never know what's waiting, Simeon Simeon.
	Here you are, west of the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Dr. Simeon Hine.
	Hello.
	Are you speaking to me?
	I am speaking to you, sir.
	Very good.
	During the break, I called Michael Glickman in England And told him what this gentleman has been saying.
	And he thinks, on the grounds that all the complicated ones are man-made, he thinks it's rubbish.
	You could call him right now, Art, if you'd like.
	Michael Glickman thinks the concept of the big ones, the complex ones, being human-made, he thinks that's rubbish.
	You could have a two-way debate.
	I think I can probably give the gentleman a I run for his money, but Michael could do a wonderful job of... Yeah, are you sure Michael's awake?
	Oh yeah, he was awake two minutes ago.
	Really?
	Oh yeah, I have his number here.
	You probably have it, don't you?
	Well, I've got it somewhere, but you really... Take me off the air and I'll give you the number.
	Really, huh?
	Yeah.
	I'd like to speak later, too.
	Michael can do a better job of pulverizing him than I can.
	Well, now pulverizing is not socially acceptable.
	No, please.
	I mean, we have the right to disagree without pulverizing each other.
	Come on, we're civilized people here.
	Now let's not start burning witches at the stake because I don't agree with some of the fundamentalist researchers.
	I'm entitled to my point of view.
	Wait a minute.
	I apologize for using that.
	Fundamentalist researchers.
	That's interesting.
	Interesting phrase, I must say.
	Caller, can you hold a second?
	Yes.
	All right.
	Hold on a second there, Caller.
	I'll tell you what I'm going to do.
	All right.
	You're off the air now.
	What's the number for Mr. Glickman?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know.
	No, I think I got it all.
	All right.
	All right.
	Thank you.
	Well, OK.
	Listen, you're off the air, so yeah, you're right.
	I mean, I can't do this.
	We're on a talk show here, so I got to go.
	All right.
	Thank you very much.
	All right.
	So, Dr. Hine, you know, what do you think?
	It actually might be, you know, this is a very non-trivial point.
	I mean, whether these things are man-made or not, right?
	It's an important point, and of course not everyone's going to agree with my point of view on it.
	Of course not everyone has been out with the circle makers at night like I have, and other researchers have been out with the circle makers, and I think if you're scientific at least, you know, we live in a modern era where we're open to looking at new types of data, right?
	New types of information.
	I think it's healthy to be open-minded.
	I didn't call my book, Opening Minds, for nothing.
	I think if you look at the evidence... Hold on one second, Doctor.
	Mr. Glickman, Michael?
	Hello, Michael?
	You know, I had Mr. Glickman... Yes, hello, Michael Glickman?
	All right.
	Hold on.
	Michael, it's Art Bell.
	All right.
	Can I put you on the air for a sec?
	Michael?
	Is it OK to put you on the air for a second?
	Yes, I'll give you a minute.
	Go ahead.
	All right.
	All right.
	I'm going to put him on hold.
	I'm going to do this.
	I mean, this is a very non-trivial point for you to be coming on the program and saying, look, even.
	The biggest, most intricate, and I've looked at these aerial shots here, sitting in front of the audience, and I've told this audience, and I still really say it now, I can't believe that humans could do it.
	It's beyond my comprehension that humans could have done some of these.
	Yes, sure, granted, some of them, but It would have, in my opinion, have taken an army of people to produce some of these.
	And so, I don't know if this is going to work, but I'm going to try and put Michael Glickman on here.
	Michael, are you there?
	He's not there yet.
	Anyway... People obviously disagree about this.
	It's a very emotional issue.
	But I think to be healthy, we live in an era where we're open to different interpretations.
	And I think we should be allowed to have different interpretations of the same phenomena.
	Without wanting to burn each other at the stake.
	Well, okay.
	Michael, are you there?
	I hear telephones shifting around, but I don't yet hear Michael.
	So I'm not sure what we're going to do here.
	We'll just hold tight, I guess, for a minute.
	I sure would like to get him on, because he has been on in the past, and he has really strongly made the case that they just simply all could not be Hello?
	Yes, hi Michael.
	Hi.
	Let's see, it's like morning back there in England, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So see, now you're on the air, and you're on the air with Dr. Simeon Hine.
	The Doctor of Sociology, I think.
	Yes, actually, that's correct, and he's made the case That all of the crop circles, virtually all of them, the large, intricate ones that I think you and I have agreed in the past, it would be impossible for humans to have made.
	He says they are, in fact, made by humans.
	And one of my callers called and said, well, you know, I just called Michael in Great Britain, and he said, that's rubbish.
	And that was a word he used, rubbish.
	And so I thought, well, OK, fine.
	Let's get you on the air with Dr. Hine and see.
	Well, what do you want me to say?
	Was rubbish the word you used?
	No, it wasn't.
	The word I used was... Well, maybe you shouldn't.
	I mean, it's nonsense.
	I've known Simeon for many years, and in fact, Simeon has approached me and thanked me for being the person whose lecture brought him into the study of crop circles.
	And I have to say that I'm deeply ashamed of it, because he's trivialized, traduced, perverted the subject.
	There is absolutely not an ounce of support for his nonsensical hypothesis.
	Dr. Hirne?
	Well, I mean, how many demonstration man-made circles do you have to see to be convinced that people actually can make these circles.
	Now, I want to say that Michael is correct.
	He did bring me in.
	He was one of the people that brought me into the study of this subject, and I respect him.
	But, even people that respect each other can disagree.
	So, are you saying that the Demonstration Man-Made Circle includes all circles that ever arrived?
	No, no.
	I have not.
	I have not.
	Do I destroy the American currency?
	Hold on, hold on.
	Because of the distortion, Michael, get away from your phone a little there in Great Britain.
	We get this strange Atlantic thing.
	Can I restate my position?
	Yeah, please do.
	I don't think I'm arguing that all crop circles are man-made.
	There is clearly evidence from witness reports, people that I know, that have seen ones that are made by something else.
	But my argument is simply That I believe the mantle of crop circle authorship shifted in the 90s to human-made circles from something else, mostly from something else, to mostly human.
	I don't believe it takes away from the magic of the crop circles one iota.
	And I think they're just as mysterious as they've always been.
	I just think the mechanics of it is a little different than I originally thought.
	But I know that they're real and that they contain a communication from other dimensions, other information and energy.
	And I think that human beings are allowed to participate in that magic.
	I think that's why we're here on the planet.
	Michael, what is the best evidence that you could cite that there have been circles made that it would be totally and completely impossible for man to have done?
	Large, intricate ones.
	Well, there are two evidences that I can cite.
	And one of the best evidences that I can cite is the fact That on every occasion when people come up with this nonsensical claim of the magnitude of human participation, on study it's found to be utterly hollow.
	Now, when Colin Andrews ran around with his 80% claim, I spent six months studying his work.
	probably know more about Colin Andrews' claim than even Colin Andrews does.
	I would recommend your readers to log into swirlednews.com and look at my two articles
	called 80% Proof, which shows that this claim was utterly spurious.
	Now going on from that, all the hoaxers are demonstrably out to deceive.
	They never give out real information.
	They delight in the deceit of others.
	And Ron Russell and Simeon Hine and many others are regarded as the hunted heads, the trophies on their walls.
	In this country, these people are sneered at for falling to con men.
	Now, this is one side of the argument.
	The other side of the argument, the reality of the circles as opposed to the hollowness of the claims otherwise, the reality of the argument is simply brought about by the assiduous and continuing studies of people who are crop circle researchers and are finding continuously components in circles which Could not be randomly or accidentally placed there by a bunch of people at night time.
	I'm not a professor of sociology.
	I was a professor of architecture.
	And so I know about geometry and design and number.
	And I have been finding for 14 years now Consistency of what I can only call genius in the design construction of these forms.
	And I know Matt Williams and John Lundberg.
	I know all these people.
	I've known them forever.
	I wouldn't allow them into my freshman class.
	And the suggestion that these people, because Simeon has been seduced into watching a staged The suggestion that these people could attain the majesty and precision and articulacy of the program of formations we've been having for all these years is ludicrous.
	I mean, we have now had some research done by Alan Brown, who's a young man, a geometer of very great skill, who has backtracked over the whole program of quintuplets, which are the dice five-spot formations, early formations.
	The whole program of these has been studied since the mid-eighties.
	And various protocols, geometric protocols have been thrown at them, and it has been
	discovered that every single one of these formations squares the circle.
	Now this is one of the most important ancient exercises in sacred geometry.
	Michael and Dr. Hine, look, it's either been demonstrated by a group of people that
	they can do one of these ten-acre intricate monsters, or it hasn't.
	Is it possible that humans can do it physically, can do it in some of the times that we've seen these things done, or not?
	Well, I think they can, and I think Michael has not mentioned, he's only mentioned two circles out of about 40 that I know, circle makers.
	And some of the best of the circle makers, he doesn't even, he's not familiar with them.
	These circle makers have said they would like to do a demonstration in the daytime for all of us to see.
	The big ones, I'm talking about the big ones.
	Well, baby, let's have it.
	I'd like to see it.
	We need to find a farmer, pay the farmer for the field.
	It all has to be set up.
	We would like to.
	We would like to.
	They do it every year.
	Film companies come over and they think it proves something.
	Are you, Simeon, familiar with John Lundberg?
	Of course.
	John Lundberg stated specifically that the large Milk Hill Formation was not made by people and could not be made by people.
	And do you believe him?
	You just said on occasion.
	You said all the circle makers are deceivers.
	You said the Circlemakers are deceivers, Michael, and now you're saying they come up to you and tell you who's the author, and you believe them.
	I would tell you that the first thing a Circlemaker would say is, no human could make those.
	You know why?
	Most of them do not want it to come forward that they make them, because they know that people like you and other researchers will pay more attention to them if you think they are not being made by people, and most of them are not like that.
	Did you ever go into Mocail?
	Excuse me?
	Did you go to Mocail?
	No, I had left England right before.
	I went into Mocail.
	And, um, I have to say, its size was such that the people on the far side of the formation, when I went in, looked like ants.
	It was not a flat field.
	You couldn't see the whole formation from anywhere, apart from the air.
	And I'm an ex-architect.
	I've done engineering work.
	Can I ask you a question?
	I do not believe it could be laid out!
	If John Lundberg and his crew came up to you and said, will you watch us do a demonstration at night, would you accept their offer?
	No.
	You see, so... Well, now wait a minute.
	Wait a minute.
	Wait a minute.
	Michael, hold it.
	Michael.
	Michael.
	Hold on.
	Why not?
	Why would you not accept an offer of... I tell you, they would ask me to watch personally.
	I have been asked to watch personally on many occasions, and I've not done it.
	Why not?
	I've taken the results of the event and studied them after the event, but I will not grace them with my presence because I think they are deceivers.
	I mean, I saw this famous one that so moved Simeon at Cheryl, the 11-fold, and it's junk!
	It's a piece of design.
	Circular Magazine called it one of the great circles of all time.
	And I know local, read the Circular Magazine from the Center for Crossover Study.
	And I know people that live near your area who told me as soon as they saw it, they knew it had been made by aliens because they could feel the energy coming off.
	I will not reveal this person's name.
	This person said that as soon as they saw it, they knew it had been made by aliens.
	They could feel the energy coming from it.
	And I do believe it generated energy.
	Maybe it wasn't made by aliens, but the circle is real.
	So the fact that you don't like the appearance of the circle doesn't mean that the other ones that you do enjoy weren't made by people.
	That's not very logical, is it?
	No, it's not very logical.
	But I mean, after 14 years of assiduous study, I have yet to have this position.
	All right, listen.
	We're coming down here.
	Michael, hold on.
	Hold on, Michael.
	Hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the hour and I've got a break here.
	Dr. Simeon Hine and Michael Glickman from Great Britain will be right back.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	I can feel it coming in the air.
	It don't come easy, you know.
	It don't come easy.
	You know it don't come easy It don't come easy
	You know it don't come easy But you'll see it's you if you wanna see the blues
	And you know it don't come easy You don't have to shout or leap for miles
	You can even play them easy Get about the past and all your sorrows
	In the future won't last It will soon be all tomorrow
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255, east of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them
	dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	Tell you something, folks.
	Great radio ain't made.
	It just...
	How's a good friend of mine will say?
	Well, alrighty now.
	We have Dr. Simeon Hine, my guest tonight.
	And on a whim, Michael Glickman from Great Britain.
	I don't know if everybody's made it through the break.
	Let's quickly find out.
	Michael, are you still there?
	I'm still here.
	Oh, very good.
	And I trust that you, Dr. Hine, remain.
	Yes, I'm here.
	All right.
	I have a question for both of you.
	For you, Dr. Hine, Michael Glickman made, I think, an interesting charge when he asked or even stated that you had been seduced That was word he used by the circle makers in Great Britain.
	Now examine that possibility.
	Could he be right?
	Could you have been seduced?
	I don't think so.
	Look, I'm a scientist and I'm interested in data and information.
	And anyone who comes to me and says, look, I can offer you more information about the subject matter than you currently know, I'm willing to be open-minded and take a look.
	There was a time when Galileo went to the Pope and said, will you look through my telescope?
	And the Pope said, no, why should I look through your telescope?
	I know that the universe is finite and that we're the center of the universe.
	You see?
	So how do we know when we should look through the telescope and when we shouldn't?
	Let's take the other point of view.
	Michael's point of view.
	Back in the year 2000, when a group came to me and said, would you like to see us make a circle at night?
	For me, that was the litmus test of whether all of Michael's claims all the years that I've heard him make, and I believed for a long time that humans could not make them.
	The only way to find out art was to go out with my own eyes and see for myself.
	If I hadn't gone, I never would have known.
	And it really did change my point of view, but that's okay.
	We're all adults and we can handle the truth.
	Both Michael and I believe that crop circles are the bones of God.
	I don't believe that God cares who makes his crop circles.
	And for you, Michael, before we actually got you on the telephone, Dr. Hine referred to you as a fundamentalist when it comes to crop circles and in fact you did say that you wouldn't even be willing to watch an invitation to come out and see an intricate very large crop circle being made and that would seem to put you in that fundamentalist category.
	It doesn't put me in that position.
	I have been sitting here during the break and I've been terribly depressed by the fact that a program as important as the Art Bell Show is still sifting through the trivializations and patent falsehoods of this hoax business.
	I mean, it's been laid to rest.
	The research community now believes that the hoax I think is an interesting but trivial sideline which serves basically to reassure the frightened population.
	But there's been no solid evidence.
	Once again, I would counsel everybody to read my pieces, two of them, 80% proof on SWOT News website, which shows The level of integrity and discernment and scholarship which backs up these hoax claimants and hoax supporters.
	They are fundamentally deceivers.
	But why would you refuse to see a demonstration of what otherwise you couldn't possibly, and don't ascribe to human beings, having done?
	I mean, proof that they in fact can do it.
	I know they can do a formation.
	I know this.
	I've seen a Michael, a large, intricate formation of the type you say humans can't do.
	That type.
	A demonstration of the big, really complicated ones, Michael.
	If they can demonstrate that to you, why not watch?
	Well, you know, I might be persuaded to watch.
	But, I mean, fundamentally, I make most of my judgments from the design and the geometry.
	I'm not a ground person.
	I'm a design and geometry person.
	And normally, I have to say, I can look at a photograph and I can perceive the man-made formation essentially because they are incapable of designing the crop circle.
	They are capable of designing and making an imprint in the crop, but it does not have The ingenuity, the inventiveness, the scholarship, the geometry of the real thing.
	I would have believed exactly what you just said, Michael, and listen, we've got to leave you at this point because the time is growing short, but I would have said exactly what you just said, Michael.
	Believe me, I would not have believed the hand of man could have done this, but if there is an opportunity presented to you to observe it, As a scientist and investigator, I don't think you can say no.
	Can I tell you, every single summer, a TV company comes up and pays these guys a few thousand pounds to make yet another circle, and they make a circle, and then the TV company goes away and says, well, that proves it.
	It doesn't prove it.
	It doesn't actually demonstrate anything.
	All right.
	It simply trivializes the study.
	All right, Dr. Hine, what about that?
	From a statistical point of view, if you have a large enough group of man-made circles and you can see all of these things in them, the little signs and heating and bent nodes and exploded nodes and all those sorts of strange phenomena we talked about at the beginning of the show, if you can see those in enough of the man-made circles After a while, it constitutes a form of proof that unless you can demonstrate that the other formations are made in a different way, the only logical thing to conclude is that if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck.
	I mean, why make it more complicated than it has to be?
	All right, listen, Michael, thank you for being here this evening.
	I think you've added an important word to this, and so thank you, Michael.
	I'm sorry, I wish we had more time.
	So, Dr. Hine, have you had it, I'm just asking you straight out now, have you personally Gone up on a hill, or wherever you were, and have you seen somebody make a 10 acre, a complicated, precise monster, the likes of which we've all seen?
	Have you seen humans do that or not?
	I haven't seen a 10 acre one.
	Not the little ones, Doctor?
	No, the one, you know, we made one in 2001 that was 300 feet across our 300 feet is pretty big.
	It's the size of a football field.
	And again, it's on the Opening Minds website.
	It's on the back cover of Opening Minds.
	We made that with beginners in five hours.
	It just seems to me a logical extension.
	If you had 10, 20 year olds or people on that age group who had a lot of experience, you could do a big one.
	But I can't prove that, it's just my belief system based on what I've seen.
	But the proof is important, and you are telling me, you did make the statement tonight, that in your opinion, even the big, giant, complicated ones were darn well man-made.
	Well, you know, Occam's Razor says, do not multiply entities beyond necessity.
	If someone can present to me any evidence, again, I'm open to the evidence, if someone can show me any evidence that the bigger ones are somehow made By someone different than the medium ones that I've seen done.
	I'm willing to see that, but I haven't seen the evidence for that.
	And I would encourage... But Doctor, you're making such a claim, you know, against just me, the commoner who looks at this thing ten acres big, and it looks like it would have taken millions of man hours, and even then it would have just seemed impossible for man to have done it without Traces, even with the ditches there, the way you were talking about it, and all the rest of it.
	So, isn't the burden of proof, if you're going to make this claim, on you?
	Show us something ten acres and complicated and then, well, then fine.
	What choice do we have?
	There are some on my website that are very large, that we know were filmed and that are man-made.
	I don't see any difference between those.
	And any ones that are just slightly larger.
	I mean, just because you have a larger chicken doesn't mean that it's not related to the smaller chickens.
	It just means it had more weevils.
	All right.
	And that's my view.
	But I would just encourage Coast listeners to not believe Dr. Simeon Hine or Michael Glickman, but go out yourself and find a farmer and make your own circle and make your own mind up.
	I don't want to convince anybody of any position.
	Make your own mind up.
	There is that.
	First time caller line.
	I want to get some callers in.
	You're on the air with Dr. Simeon Hine.
	Hello.
	Hello?
	Yes, go ahead, sir.
	I apologize for the cell phone signal.
	My name's Rob.
	I've just entered Louisville, Kentucky.
	My question, Doctor, is have any experiments been done on the crop circles to see if there's any simultaneous activity in the circles in different locations or possibly synchronized activity between similar shaped crop circles at the same time?
	Yeah, that's a really good question.
	That brings up another area we haven't talked about tonight.
	Alright.
	It's the telepathic experiences in crop formations.
	Alright, let's hear about it.
	Yeah, there are many instances, and again this is something that I'm just relaying to you from things that I've been told by the circle makers.
	I haven't seen it myself, but I've seen the patterns they've done.
	Where they later found out that a circle that they made, someone had drawn the exact same circle and had never told them about it.
	And yet they went out and made it and it had already been drawn two weeks ago by someone else.
	Or other cases, A circle maker had the feeling to go out and make a circle.
	He later found out the shape he made was the exact shape that a group was meditating upon about a half mile away.
	And so I think that's an example of the kind of simultaneity that we see in confirmation.
	It's quite interesting.
	Ah, gee.
	Is that mind reading or is that mind controlling?
	We don't know.
	We don't know the direction of the causality.
	Did the group cause that pattern, or did this person have the idea and give it to the group, or is it, you know, a parallel universe that's happening simultaneously?
	I don't know, but it's another interesting phenomenon that happens around these formations.
	All right.
	Doctor, I didn't notice what I would classify as a great deal of love professionally between you and, say, Michael Glickman, and probably quite a bit Of the crop circle investigative community in general, would you think that to be true?
	Not just of Michael Glickman, but of a lot of the mainstream, ha, ha, ha, mainstream, I say, researchers into crop circles.
	At odds with them at the moment?
	I don't feel at odds with them.
	I feel that we're all entitled to look at the information and come to our own conclusions.
	Well, they seem to feel at odds with you, then.
	Yes, and there's oftentimes in scientific Debate and change when people don't agree.
	And I think that we have the right to disagree respectively.
	We don't have to call each other names and say foul things about each other.
	We don't need ad hominem attacks.
	We don't need to attack each other.
	We need to look at the evidence, the data, and decide What are these crop formations and what do they mean to us?
	And how can we interact with them in a way that's beneficial to all of us?
	I think that's the real question.
	Why do you think that Michael, when presented with your question about whether he would be willing to come and observe a demonstration, said no?
	Why do you think he said no?
	That shocked me.
	This is a position I've never understood either from a lot of the researchers.
	Why will they not go?
	We were not the first people that Matt Williams and his group approached.
	We were the only people that said yes.
	We were not seduced.
	Believe me, we were quite curious.
	I had heard Michael Glickman and many other researchers say, this cannot be done, and if you can prove otherwise, I'd love to see it.
	So when I got this opportunity, I jumped on the opportunity.
	But the case is, I think many researchers are afraid of the truth.
	They have such a vested interest in people not making them, I think they've lost sight of the real importance of the crop circle phenomena as a whole.
	Because lots of different sources make crop circles, to be honest.
	And for some reason, they've gotten hooked into just one aspect of the whole phenomena, and they're defending it.
	Well, this is rough because crop circle researchers are themselves already way the hell out on a limb with respect to mainstream science.
	They're way out there.
	And here you guys are, batting each other around on the end of the limb.
	And I hear a cracking sound.
	I think the whole point is to get to the truth, and I think the public needs to make their own minds up about it.
	But let me just tell you a quick anecdote about that.
	After I was involved in watching the Cheryl 2000 formation, a very well-known researcher in England came up to me at a crop circle conference and she said to me, what did you see out there, Simeon?
	And I told her.
	And she said, you know, I've known for five years they were all man-made.
	Once I made one with my husband, we knew that they were all man-made.
	And I said, well, why don't you tell people?
	She said, people are not ready for the truth.
	And besides, if I told the truth, some researchers would get very upset and it might affect their health.
	And that was the end of the discussion.
	And the same person later wrote an email to a colleague of mine and said, those who know, don't tell.
	And I don't agree with that point of view.
	I think it's our job to, in a responsible way, if we uncover a very important truth, like other researchers have done in the past.
	We made reference to Galileo and Copernicus.
	I think even though if the mainstream doesn't agree, science is not a popularity contest.
	Okay?
	It's just not a popularity contest.
	Alright, let's squeeze one more in.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Dr. Hine.
	Hello.
	I can barely hear you.
	Yes, hello.
	I have a question for your guest.
	I live up here in Idaho.
	My name is James, by the way.
	Up here in Idaho, we have a lot of wheat fields, corn fields, potato fields, and you have a lot of the good old farmers out there, and they've got their farm dogs with them.
	My question for your guest is, when you go out there, or when whomever goes out there to make the crops, A. How do you communicate with each other so that you get such a precise formation?
	And B. How do you do it so that you're so quiet while you're communicating to make such a precise formation that you don't get caught?
	Alright, those are really good questions.
	Doctor, they're so large that... Right.
	How do these people... I was really surprised to find that they use walkie-talkies.
	Walkie-talkie.
	Yeah, and they're set to pre-low volume and they talk into them at a reasonable They dim all of their lights to a high degree.
	They even put tapes over their LED flashlights, the ones that are often so advertised on Coke that I use all the time, by C. Crane and other companies.
	Those are taped over with a lot of tape.
	Even when I was filming once, they said my eyepiece was leaking too much light from the camcorder.
	That's how sensitive you get.
	Well, the bottom line is, at 2 a.m., almost everyone's asleep.
	And so even if there's a little bit of noise out there, you're just not going to hear it inside the house.
	They have learned how to do this, and they also use the rope when they're using the surveyor's tape.
	One tug might mean come closer, and two tugs might mean go farther back.
	And there's different ways of communicating in the dark.
	Kind of like you might imagine the Navy SEALs communicating.
	You've seen they have hand language and different ways of communicating quietly.
	It's kind of similar.
	So they're like, I don't know, a SEAL team in the middle of the week?
	You know, it feels like that sometimes.
	They're very serious about this.
	They don't want to get caught because some have been arrested.
	And, uh, Matt Williams... Ah!
	But, you see, so many of the researchers say, but there's never been an arrest.
	Well, actually, Michael Glickman engineered the arrest of one of the Circlemakers that wanted to show him how he did it.
	To Matt Williams.
	And then Michael's opened it up.
	Now, wait a minute.
	Why would Michael have somebody arrested who's doing something for him?
	No, he wasn't doing it for Michael, but this researcher wanted to show Michael at one point, and he sent us plans ahead of time.
	And he sent them to Whitley Strieber.
	And these plans were later used as evidence against him in a trial, and he had to pay a £150 fine.
	The judge slapped him on the wrist and said, you know, we don't mind if you make crop circles, Matt, but can you pay the farmer ahead of time?
	And that was the end of it.
	But people have been arrested, and they don't want to get caught.
	And let me go back to one quick thing you said before.
	It's going to have to be fast.
	Well, most of them don't want to be known.
	They like us enjoying the mystery of it, and this is why only a few of them have come forward in the past.
	Well, listen, my friend, it has been great.
	Well, thank you, Art.
	I've really enjoyed it, and thanks so much for this show.
	You bet.
	Thank you very much, and good night.
	I'm going to definitely give a lot of thought.
	To this program tonight, and to what's been said on both sides.
	I'm going to give it a great deal of thought, because honestly, previously, and I'm not sure that I've let go of it, my view was, with respect to some of these circles, it certainly would have been, and I think I still believe it, impossible for man to have done.
	Impossible for man to have done.
	I'm certainly not as Cemented in my position is Michael Glickman, and I would dearly love to see a demonstration of something of that magnitude.
	And one thing that I brought out of all of this, I think, is that there has been no demonstration, maybe of what the doctor called big, but no demonstration of some of the complex circles That we've seen appear on our Earth.
	So, once again, something to think about.
	But then again, that's what this program is all about.
	From the high desert, here's Crystal.
	She knows how to say goodbye.
	See you next weekend.
	Good night in the desert.
	Shooting stars across the sky.
	This magical journey will take us on a ride.
	Filled with the longing, searching for the truth.
	Will we make it till tomorrow?
	Will the sun shine on you?
	Midnight in the desert

▲