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Oct. 26, 2003 - Art Bell
02:49:55
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Induced After Death Communication - Dr. Allan Botkin
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Music From the high desert and the great American southwest, I
bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world's many time zones.
I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM Weekend Style.
How you doing?
Lots to talk about tonight, and it's hard to know where to begin.
I want to get a couple of smaller things out of the way on my webcam right now.
You know me in flight, right?
Well, Bob Crane sent me this new electric Helicopter and oh man, it's really cool.
It's a radio-controlled electric helicopter and so my wife and I, Ramona and I, took it out into the yard.
We don't have grass here in the desert.
Thank you very much.
We retain the desert motif here and so we took it out to our front rocks.
Actually went out to the road and set it down and Off she goes!
Oh, that was so much fun!
Came down in a tree, no harm done, and we've been out flying it several times now, so... Ramona actually took that photograph.
That's of our little helicopter about 30 feet up in the air.
It's hovering at about 30 feet, and then it took off and zoomed over my antenna and headed toward the power lines.
We went, I don't know, you know, but she came down nicely in a tree on her.
So that's what's on the webcam.
The helicopter at about 30 feet.
Now, I want to get this in because it is very important.
It's coming next week, as many of you know.
Some of you will not.
I'm going to be doing Ghost to Ghost, the special presentation on Friday night, Saturday morning.
And... I want to do something a little special this year.
So, bearing in mind that I want the best.
The scariest.
Real ghost stories, and they're not hard to get.
Ghost stories are not hard to get because they are legion, they are everywhere, they are worldwide, and they're certainly in this country, across this country.
So many of you have very legit stories to tell, and that's what I want.
So, in addition to taking calls from the audience at large, I'm going to ask that you, those of you that have really good ghost stories to tell on the air, Please give me a brief synopsis.
Now that means brief, you know, a paragraph or two.
Not the whole thing, but just a brief synopsis.
And include your telephone number.
And email this to me.
I am artbell at mindspring.com.
That's A-R-T-B-E-L-L, lowercase, at mindspring.com.
Or even artbell at AOL.com.
Either way, it'll get to me.
And include your phone number.
Be sure to include your phone number, because next Friday night, Saturday morning, I will pick the... what appears to be the cream, eau de crop, and then perhaps call you, which means that you've got to stand by your telephone.
Now, please, no cell phones!
Cell phones... are defective, insidious, lousy-sounding things that should never go on the air, so...
Try to make it a landline if you would please.
But do send me that email with a brief synopsis and don't forget the phone number and we'll call you and we'll sort of intersperse those calls with the audience at large and that'll be Ghost to Ghost coming up.
One you don't want to miss.
Believe me, you don't want to miss it.
That'll be Friday night, Saturday morning.
So three days for me next weekend.
Friday, Saturday, one Sunday.
Alright.
The big news out west, out here in the west, is the catastrophe that's underway in Southern California right now, the fire.
Wildfires that have now burned for days have merged into walls of flames stretching across miles, miles in parts of Southern California.
13 people dead so far.
At least 650 homes.
That number is going up fast.
650 homes up in flames!
Overmatched firefighters are frustrated, as you can imagine.
The wind that I told you about headed their way and indeed got there.
And now the latest forecast I saw on CNN indicated up to 45 mile an hour gusts for Monday as well.
Not good.
Not good.
The state's largest fire in eastern San Diego County caused at least nine deaths, including two who died inside their cars.
They apparently tried to escape the flames.
That's a quote from the Sheriff of San Diego.
Now, earlier tonight, I was getting news that because there's so much smoke, and for a myriad of reasons, flights in and out of LAX We're either delayed or cancelled.
USA Radio News at this hour, at the top of the hour, said LAX has closed.
Los Angeles Airport has closed, according to USA Radio News.
That's very serious.
The Monday night football game that was going to be at Polcom is being moved to Arizona.
For obvious reasons.
I mean, this is really serious stuff.
In Southern California, I have a lot of friends there who are right on the very edge of this blaze.
People I talk to on AM radio now.
I would like to say to those of you on the phone right now, um, if you're calling for some other reason, please hang up and let some people in the area where the fires are and where they are threatening in close, try to get through on the various phone lines.
If you wouldn't mind, please, I'd like to hear from some people in the area.
For obvious reasons.
Nobody quite knows how all these fires could have started.
You know, I hear up to 14 fires now.
Some of them have become one.
Some, no doubt, set by human hand.
There have been some reports already surfacing of that kind of thing going on.
There are people in Southern California I'm talking to near the fires right now, and they're thinking it's some sort of terrorism.
Well, of course, there's no way to verify that.
But you can imagine why people are beginning to think that, can't you?
These fires are popping up everywhere.
Now, I've got a very good friend down there, Chuck, who is a tower climber.
Chuck is crazy as a loon in terms of climbing towers.
I mean, he will go up a tower that I would never even think about going up.
Chuck Razor.
Anyway, he sent a wonderful photograph that he took of a fire in the Simi Valley area.
You've got to get a sense of how really incredibly awful this is.
Awful!
So, right on the front page of Coast to Coast AM, you'll see Simi Valley Fire.
This was sent to me by Chuck a couple hours ago.
And if you click on the picture, or where it says click here, you can get the larger A picture of the cell site.
If you look carefully, you'll see the freeway there.
And the cell site that was in the picture is now history.
Toast.
Goodbye.
It is a wall of flame as far as the eye can see at the horizon.
A wall of flame.
And I know it's hard for many of you to understand the magnitude of what's going on all across the country, but this will give you a little sense, a little taste of the horror of what's going on in Southern California right now.
And again, late news, LAX closed according to USA Radio News.
Just literal miles and miles of walls of flames in Southern California.
It is catastrophic.
More in a moment.
In Iraq, there's a great controversy going on over whether things are getting better
or not.
And on the one hand, the administration is constantly telling us we're getting all the bad news.
Well, it's true, we are.
Heading the news, the U.S.
Occupation Authority retreated from its headquarters after Iraqi insurgents boldly attacked the heavily guarded hotel With a missile barrage that killed an American colonel, wounded 18, and sent visiting U.S.
Deputy Defense Secretary Skuring for safety.
Indeed, it was a very bold blow right at the heart of the U.S.
They had a whole back of a truck that was set up to look like something else as a missile battery.
And how they got it in there, I don't know, but they did.
I understand that maybe things are getting better, but that news is rarely reaching us, while the number of deaths almost on a daily basis are.
Members of both parties are accusing the White House of stonewalling the Federal Commission investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks by blocking its demands for documents despite threats of a subpoena.
I call on the White House to turn over the documents they are withholding from the Independent Commission and do it now.
That's Senator Joseph Lieberman, a Democrat from Connecticut, co-author of the legislation that created the Independent Commission.
Wow.
Tough words.
Haven't heard talk like that since Watergate.
And here's a little lighter news.
Could use a little bit of that.
In New York, 450 women Joined together in a nude photo shoot, the women crossed their arms to keep warm in the main concourse of the Grand Central Terminal early Sunday as they prepared to pose for Spencer Tunick's latest human art installation.
All 450 of them were nude.
The women all volunteers.
All volunteers.
450 women volunteered to just strip it off.
That's it.
Arrived at 3 a.m.
Sunday, stripped off their clothes, and composed their bodies into sculptural shapes and formations meant to imitate streets, buildings, and cityscapes.
Uh, the building was closed to the public during the shoot.
Hmm.
Oh, well.
All right, now let's leap to something that'll send some chills down the back of your spine to be sure.
This came sailing into my email box, oh, I don't know, a few hours ago from a fellow named Russ.
And, you know, I thought it worth getting Russ on the phone to ask him about what you're about to hear.
It's pretty chilling stuff.
Hey, Russ.
Yeah, hi.
Where are you, Russ, in New York?
Long Island, yes.
Long Island, okay.
Well, you sent me this audio file, and it stood the hairs on the back of my neck straight up, and so I transferred it to CD, and I'm getting ready to play it here.
Do you want to tell us what we're about to hear, please?
Yeah, sure.
Well, my friend Marco's wife was hit by a train Halloween of 1989.
That's 14 years ago.
Now that's interesting because it's just in here, my friend's wife that committed suicide.
Yeah, she got hit by a train.
Was it suicide?
Yes, it was suicide.
Witnesses say she was sitting up front and all the other cars were behind her and as the train was coming up she just nailed it and got hit.
And what is the, what's the tape about?
Well, I interviewed Marco's daughter because I thought it was kind of interesting.
It was extremely interesting what he said.
He told me that when he, it was hard, it was difficult for him to tell the children that, you know, their mom was dead.
Of course.
So, you know, he had to, he got his mother for support and he, so he took his mother over there.
But he was telling them In the hallway of the house.
And, uh, to some stranger, I guess the kids were just in the hallway, so he just was standing there and he was talking to them.
Um, and he said, he says, Antoinette, um, he says, your mom is no longer with us.
She, she died today.
And the little girl, she says, no, daddy, mommy's right behind you.
So he turned around, looked, and he, you know, of course he knew she wasn't going to be there, but, you know, he didn't see anything.
But then, uh, she says, daddy, don't you see her?
She's walking right toward you, Daddy.
Daddy, she just walked right through you.
This is what Marco told me.
I said, wow, you've got to be kidding.
And then she said, you know, she went into the living room and then she said she would come in and visit her at night and sit on the bed, not talk to her, pick up her chain.
So I thought this was, what was that?
This is a little five-year-old girl.
Right.
And so how did you You requested to interview her?
Yes.
Children forget things, and I just figured I would get her over as soon as possible and interview her.
So I did that.
Marco brought her over one day, and I sat her down, and you'll hear the tape.
Okay.
Russ, thank you.
Sure thing.
Right.
Take care.
And folks, here it is.
This is a tape of a five-year-old that you just heard Russ suggest he had recorded.
Chilling stuff coming from a five-year-old.
Listen very carefully.
I am talking about my mother died in October 31, Halloween, and it was raining out, and I was staying where Mommy was, and I was keep on looking out the window, and all of a sudden Daddy and Grandma came over, came over, and they told me that Mommy died, died on the train.
And I almost started crying.
Alright, did you see Mommy at all, let's say, the past couple of nights, last night?
Yeah, I saw her last night, too.
What was she doing?
She was picking up her dress like this.
She was like, holding her dress up because it was getting too long.
Like, Mommy was getting shorter and shorter, and she had to pick up her dress like this.
Mommy was getting short, short, short, short.
And she had to pick up her dress so she won't trip.
Like, if she tripped, she would trip right through me.
Honey, what do you see?
Do you see her as a regular person?
I can see through her whole body.
You can see through her?
Yeah, like she was standing in front of the bed.
I saw the bed right through her.
I saw her in class.
In class?
Yeah.
I saw her in class.
In class?
Yes.
She was like, she was moving, well she moved my notebook and I didn't tell my teacher nothing
because then I would have to go home.
Um, I see the Social Worker one day.
When I was in her office, I saw Mommy Spirit in Mommy's office.
I was like, oh my God!
Mommy Spirit could come in her office too?
Social Worker's office you mean?
Yeah, the Social Worker's office.
Mommy Spirit came in.
Mommy Spirit came in right in the Social Worker's office.
I went, um, I said, Ms.
Gianotta, look it!
I see Mommy Spirit!
And she said she couldn't see anything.
And I go, you can't see because, because if you see, if you, if you, she always shows people that she trusts that she will tell nobody.
And she only shows it to me, and that's the only person who shows me.
Okay, how about the weekends you stay at Wendy's?
Does Mommy go to Wendy's house too?
Yeah.
She goes everywhere where I go.
Everywhere you go?
Yeah.
Does Mommy move around Daddy's apartment?
Um, she only moves into, um, where you do, um, your writing, your laser face.
She only moves into there, into my room, and then goes out the door into the living room.
Actually, does Mommy see, uh, does Mommy see, like, those, those NASCARs Daddy put up in that room?
Yeah, she sees it.
I was sleeping, um, on, I was, like, sleeping, um, On my bunk bed, and Mommy just flew over there.
I just saw, I saw her, and she was going like this, trying to think.
She was trying to think if, um, I could hear her or not.
And she was, and I was, she went, I don't know why she couldn't talk, and, but after, um, she stopped going like, like this, um, my voice started to get lower and lower, like, very low.
And I couldn't like talk, even talk and talk because it was, I don't know if mommy had magic spells or nothing because I didn't even know because it's so hard for me to know about my mother because it's very hard.
Does mommy tell you why she wanted nobody to see her but you?
She thought that she was going to tell everybody that I'm seeing spirits, and she trusts me that I won't tell nobody that I'm seeing spirits except the social worker.
And she thinks that you're going to be telling the whole world or something.
Anything else you want to say?
No, I can't remember anything else.
Alright, there you have it.
That's pretty odd stuff to listen to, isn't it?
And there are many ways, of course, that you could look at such a thing, and that would be that a child is seeing what a child wants to see, and that is mommy still being there.
Although the manner in which she described it, I found to be so dispassionate, in a way, as almost not to be a concocted story.
It sounded just like she was telling what she saw.
And she is but one of millions of Americans who have seen what appear to be ghosts.
We don't know what ghosts really are.
We really don't know.
But I guess we're on a constant quest to find out, because it means a great deal to all of us, doesn't it?
The sun is going berserk.
There's no question about what our sun is doing.
We've had X flare, X flare, X class flare, one after another, after another, after another, some of them quite sphere, and for the Sun to be doing this at this point in the 11-year solar cycle is very suspect and very interesting and very unusual, and it is just literally going berserk up there on the Sun.
And of course such talk recalls things that Ed Dames has said in the past about our Sun, And what may occur one day.
I don't know.
I look at that and every time I see the new chart I go, oh my God, look at that.
It really is going berserk.
This song is what I call, or what's being called, an earworm.
I'll explain all about an earworm coming up in a moment.
From the high desert, this is Coast.
To access the audio archives of Coast to Coast AM, log on to coasttocoastam.com
the rest of Riyadh.
When the wind blows Well Jack be nimble, Jack be quick
Jack jumps over the candlestick He jumps so high up above
He landed in the cradle of love Well rock-a-bye baby
In the treetop When the wind blows
The cradle will rock So rock-a-bye baby
In the treetop When the wind blows
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
west of the Rockies dial 1-800-618-8255, east of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033. First time
callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295. To
reach out on the toll free international line call your AT&T operator and have them dial
1-800-893-0903.
This song, for my wife, is an earworm.
It's a term coined by University of Cincinnati marketing professor James Dolores.
Unexpected.
...and insidious, the earworm slinks its way into your brain and refuses to leave.
Symptoms vary, although very high levels of annoyance and frustration are very common.
There are numerous potential treatments, but there is no cure for the earworm.
None.
It is a term coined by Universal... Well, anyway, I told you that.
I quickly learned, he said, that virtually everybody experiences earworms at one time or another.
I think because it's experienced privately and not often a topic of conversation, maybe people really long for some social comparison.
They want to know if other people experience what they experience.
Galeris, whose most pervasive personal earworm, Byzantine Chants, likely has something to do with his wife's job as a church choir director, has been interested in the topic of earworms for decades now.
As a musician who now struggles, studies, You've experienced it.
I've experienced it.
I think most people have experienced it.
They hear a song and it won't go away.
It's locked in your brain.
and began doing surveys back in 2000.
You've experienced it.
I've experienced it.
I think most people have experienced it.
They hear a song and it won't go away.
It's locked in your brain.
It's going around and around and around and around in your brain, driving you nuts.
You need to hear it until your ears bleed and you're cured.
The only thing that'll cure you is hearing it enough times that you finally say, ENOUGH!
Otherwise an earworm will wiggle its way through your brain endlessly while you're trying to figure out what something is that's haunting you.
Music, indeed, can do that.
It haunts, in the way some spirits appear to.
And that particular song was one, and that earlier one then won for me, and you just have to sort of keep hearing it.
Anyway, more... Oh, I do want to hear... Those were the numbers, and I want to hear from people in the fire area.
if you're particularly on the front lines of one of these fires in Southern
California the first time caller line would be a good way to go at
area code 775-727-1222 1-2-2-2
There's something really big in Campbell County, Tennessee Campbell County Tennessee.
For the past two weeks, over 100 cats have disappeared or have been found half-eaten in Campbell County, Tennessee.
Yesterday, the Campbell County, Tennessee Sheriff's Department officially opened an investigation into complaints from over two dozen residents of the College Hills section of Campbell County regarding a large, smelly, A primate weighing in at better than 400 pounds today at 5 o'clock, WATE Channel 6, Knoxville reports that many sightings of a large, smelly primate have been reported during the past 35 years in the rural mountains of Campbell County, Tennessee, which is located about 30 miles north of Knoxville.
A cryptozoologist showed images of skunk apes to several complainants in Campbell County.
And it does appear the primate is either a skunk ape or some other undocumented creature related to the primate family.
These sightings are from local native residents who are used to seeing bear, panther, and other large creatures in their area.
They know what they're looking at, and what they're looking at is not one of the above.
On the first time caller line, you are on the air.
Hello.
Hey, how's it going?
It's going OK, sir.
Where are you?
OK, I'm in Fontana, California.
I'm in between two cities that are basically in the midst of the fire.
Oh, my.
OK.
Yeah.
Basically, I have most of my co-workers here have had to been evacuated from their homes.
And it's you can't see the moon, no stars.
And it's it's smoke.
There's you can't see anything.
It's hard to breathe.
And it's just terrible over here.
Yeah, that's what I've been hearing, that it really is catastrophic.
The nation right now is getting reports, but I don't think they exactly understand how dramatic and serious this really is.
Well, it's difficult for them to see because they're not right in front.
I took a friend home yesterday and I was probably 10-15 minutes away from one of the main areas that were on fire, Old Waterman Canyon.
That's one of the fires over here.
Basically off of the 18 freeway?
Yes.
And that one is tarred up about 300 homes or so.
How's your weather there now?
How's the wind?
Right now the wind is a bit on the calm side, but weather reports are saying it's supposed to be picking up probably by morning, and we've got advisory going until 2pm tomorrow.
Alright, well they just closed, according to the network, they closed LAX.
Yeah.
Just closed it all together and they're moving Monday Night Football's game.
It's a big deal.
650 homes.
27,000 I've heard without power.
Do you have power?
Yeah, we got power over here, but it's kind of flickering on and off.
We lost two major radio stations on the FM band and they've been on and off and one of the major ones have like an 80,000 range.
Are completely out.
Yes.
Well, a lot of towers, of course, are located on where else?
Mountains, along with cell sites and the rest of it, repeaters, and they're all going up in smoke.
Yeah.
I appreciate it.
And fire.
Thank you for your call, sir.
No problem.
Right.
Take care.
There's somebody from the area.
It's it's really something to even contemplate the way it must be in parts of Southern California right now.
Just a horror.
First time caller on the air, hello.
Hi, Art.
Hi.
I'm in Vista, California.
Yes, sir.
And, uh, it's starting in, I don't know, do you know where Escondido is?
I do, indeed.
Well, I've heard, I mean, I think tonight we're safe, but the winds pick up, it could hit San Marcos and hit us.
Oh, really?
Yeah, and it's just the sitting on pins and needles, it's just Getting to everyone.
In the night sky, are you seeing from your location a glow in any direction?
No, uh-uh.
I mean, right now, the wind is really good at 5 to 10 miles an hour, but they say tomorrow morning it's going to be picking up again.
Yes, according to CNN, a forecast I was watching earlier, they're expecting up to, I don't know, like 45 mile an hour gusts later in the day, so that's not good news.
Tuesday, at least, it should calm down, but that's a lot of fire between now and then.
Yeah, and I have a co-worker who had a house in Scripps Ranch that he was in the process of closing escrow on another house.
And I think his house burned.
Oh boy.
Yeah.
Well, that's a lot of homes.
650 homes already.
That's a lot of homes.
It is.
I appreciate your call, sir.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And take care.
People are beginning, as you can imagine, to speculate about the cause.
I would imagine some of these were torched with human hands.
It just seems like too many fires, too many fires to be accidental.
And of course, it's probably not all accidental.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Yeah, hi, Art.
This is Steve calling you from Windsor, Ontario.
Hi, Steve.
Okay, we got some major stuff going on right now at this very moment.
Live in Baghdad, there's been a series of at least three major explosions.
Just now?
Just in the last few minutes, yeah.
One is the Ministry of Industry, one at the Red Cross building.
They think they're car bombs, but they haven't been able to get close enough yet.
But this is going on right now, and it's pretty big looking fires and everything.
Where are you catching this?
Live on CNN.
Live on CNN.
I appreciate the information, sir.
Thank you.
You're welcome, sir.
More going on in Baghdad.
There you are.
Well, as I was saying, you try to believe and grasp some of the reports that are suggesting things in Iraq are getting better, and I'm sure in some regard they are.
Services are coming back and the rest of it but the frequency and severity of the attacks on Americans and American interests and the new Iraqi government is pretty fierce to be sure.
So we've really got ourselves into something in Iraq and one has to wonder what the exit strategy is going to be and whether that was considered prior to our entry.
I know certainly the reasons for the entry into the Iraqi war are somewhat at question.
There are a number of reports indicating the intelligence used was less than convincing and single-sourced when it should have been multi-sourced.
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hello.
Yes, sir.
You're on the air.
Okay.
All right.
Yes.
Yeah, I got a question for you.
You're familiar with the San Diego area.
I know that.
Yes, I am.
Do you realize that there's been over 100,000 acres in less than 24 hours go up?
Which is unbelievable.
I'm sorry, repeat that for me.
East of the Rockies called toll free 1-800-825-5033.
Okay.
At any rate, my wife Ramona just came in and gave me the thumbs up on the story with regard to Iraq.
Apparently a series of large explosions going on in the Baghdad area.
Uh, so I guess that is confirmed.
Uh, West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hi, Art.
Hi.
This is Rick in San Diego.
Hello, Rick.
Um, I had to evacuate earlier today.
You are an evacuee?
Yes, I am.
And, you know, it was, it was pretty bad.
Where, where is your home, uh, there?
The Rancho Bernardo area.
Okay.
And at about what time did you have to evacuate and what were the conditions when you did?
Well, it was about 11 o'clock or so.
The conditions at that time weren't too bad, but if you looked up in the sky the smoke was so thick you could actually, it acted as a filter, you could see the sunspots on the sun.
Oh my!
There's some gigantic sunspots now and you're saying there was enough filter from the smoke to look right at the sun?
Exactly!
It was just unbelievable.
I'm sitting at the beach right now because I can't go home.
Did they not give you a location to evacuate to, or did you just decide, I'd rather be at the beach?
I'd rather be at the beach.
Yeah, at least I could watch the peaceful waves.
Any news on your home at all?
No.
They told me that maybe sometime tomorrow I could go back, but that's not certain to
give them a call and check in sometime tomorrow morning.
Well, the pleasure and the pain of living in Southern California, huh?
Exactly.
Every year.
It's just been so incredible.
You know, when I got up this morning, my cars were all covered in ash.
You know, it was just, it was like rain.
The ash was so thick, it was like, it was raining ash.
Do you have any personal theories on the number of fires?
I mean, the fact that there are so many.
Do you have any theories on that?
Well, you know, I happen to think that some of these, in fact, probably quite a few, especially in the San Diego area, were, you know, set.
I don't know about the ones up in Northern, you know, or Central California, Montana, whatever, San Bernardino.
But, you know, as of yesterday, we only had one fire.
That was out in Ramona.
Now we've got half a dozen.
Miles, literally miles of fires.
Some of them are linking up.
Otay Mesa blazed up today for no good reason.
You know, it's just way too mysterious.
Well, I wish you well for you and your home.
I hope your night at the beach is a peaceful one.
Yeah, well, thank you very much and I'm glad to hear you back on the air.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
It'll give you a little sense of what's going on.
Sometimes it's good, you know, we're so detached in so many ways.
We hear about things on radio, we hear about things on television, but we're so detached.
I guess we've seen so much horror one way or the other that that's an easy thing to do in the modern world with the electronic media.
You can become detached and not really understand what it means.
You hear about it but not really understand what it means to be Facing something like that.
That's why I thought that Chuck's photograph was so good, the one up on Coast to Coast AM right now.
Chuck Racer took this, and it'll give you a sense, I think, of what it would be like, you know, to have a home and to see what's in this picture coming at you.
Coming directly at you.
Just sit back for a while and watch the picture and imagine being there.
A first-time caller line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hello.
Hi.
This is Moody in Claremont, California.
Hey!
This is a ham radio friend of mine.
Hi, Moody!
First-time caller.
And thought I'd let you know that I have theories, but more than that, I wanted to talk about the goodness in people and how people came out here in Claremont.
We lost over 50 houses last night.
I know you were right on the line.
I think when I talked to you, you said you were 20 blocks from the fire.
Right.
And I did go up and spend a lot of time at our Emergency Operations Center.
Within the first hour after we saw the fire coming over the hill, we had over 100 responders, emergency responders, Sheriff's Department, police departments from neighboring cities.
It was just magnificent to see them come.
And then the horror of watching people losing their homes and as we told them they had to evacuate.
Mandatory evacuations.
Yes.
It was good and it was bad.
But you saw a lot of good in people.
I mean a lot of people turning out to help.
That was the big surprise.
The way they turned out.
How they got water up to the fire lines.
There were too many people helping at times, but it was just very, very well done.
Moody, you're an honorary police chief there, aren't you?
I am on the police commission.
On the police commission there.
Uh-huh.
You said you had some theories.
You want to air any of them?
I don't mind.
I did an overlay.
I played with a computer and just started to look at sites where most of these fires started.
And I noticed that most of them started uh... at major freeways that were interested major exits
are interested in the southern california look at interstate ten fifteen
going north ten east and west
uh... what i would twenty six going out to uh... the valley these were all affected all of these fires were within a
mile of those freeways
and that they they essentially cut off transportation in and out of southern
california uh... i've heard as some people voice theories that there
could be terrorist elements uh...
at work here it could just be as you point out near freeways so that's easy
access to start You just, I guess, throw something flammable and go.
So surely the hand of man is involved in an awful lot of this.
Maybe not all, but quite a bit of it.
Too many fires at the same time like this.
I'm at the point now of making an assessment that all except one were man-made.
All except one?
The only thing I can look at that really wasn't man-made was the fire down at Pendleton from live fire rounds down there.
Everything else seems to be man-made.
You think we've always been this way, Moody?
Our society?
You think it's always been this way?
You think 20 years ago, 30 years ago, it happened like this?
No.
I've been in the same neighborhood, the same house, for 32 years.
I've looked at fires in and out of California for many years.
I've never seen anything like the firestorms we're having now.
Not the multiplicity.
I mean, just multiple fires and they're going off one behind the other just enough time to get to the next site.
But something profound has changed in society that we have this now and didn't then.
Absolutely.
Callousness about human life, about your neighbor or whatever.
And yet in the midst of all of this, You saw the goodness come out in people as they came forth to help.
Amazing.
Yes, amazing.
All of it is amazing.
Our modern world is amazing.
Moody, thank you.
My pleasure.
You take care.
That's Moody.
Very good friend.
We talk on Ham Radio most nightly.
There you go.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hi, it's Faith.
Hi there.
Where are you, dear?
I'm in Miamisburg, Ohio.
Miamisburg, Ohio.
All right, we've only got a moment here because we're coming to the top of the hour, so what's up?
Well, I just wondered if Moody wasn't right, I mean, about the terrorist... Well, I don't know.
Now, be careful.
Moody didn't say terrorist.
Okay, well, you did.
You alluded to it.
I did.
Yes, I did.
What I actually said was that There are friends of mine who are beginning to say things like that, whether there could be terrorist actions involved in something like this.
That's not to say it's proven, just that people are saying it.
I wonder, too.
You do, huh?
Yes.
Just because of the way, you know, like he said, there was more man-made ones than there was anything, and I'm going, all these firestorms this year, and, you know, things, I don't know, this world's getting crazier and crazier by the minute.
On that, my dear, we absolutely agree.
Crazier and crazier by the minute.
I do appreciate your call.
Thank you very much.
You're welcome, and I'm glad to hear that you're back on the show, and I'm curious to find out about Barbara Simpson.
Where's she at?
Barbara will be here filling in on Thanksgiving, and is retained to continue to fill in for George and myself.
So there you have it.
Coming up in a moment, we'll talk to somebody who can help you Talk to a dead relative.
He says.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
And we still have time, we might still get by.
Every time I think about it, I want to cry.
We're falling to the table, and the kids keep coming.
No way to be these in time to be young.
Wanna take a ride?
Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
Rockies 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
And to call out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them
dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
Good morning.
Southern California is virtually on fire as we do this program.
Virtually on fire.
The bombs are going off in Iraq.
And in a moment, we're going to interview Dr. Alan Botkin.
Dr. Botkin is a licensed clinical psychologist with over 20 years of experience in treating patients who suffer from grief and traumatic loss.
He's made groundbreaking discoveries.
For example, he found as a result of experimenting with variations of a relatively new and very powerful psychological procedure called Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, or EMDR, I guess for short, that he could reliably induce in his patients an experience that they believed was actual contact with the deceased person they were grieving.
After death communications, or ADCs, are not rare.
They've been reported to occur naturally and spontaneously In 20% of the entire population of this country, although ADC experiencers have been recognized, these experiences have been recognized as very healing, it's been believed for some time by researchers in the field that these experiences can only occur randomly and spontaneously.
Dr. Botkin's discovery, on the other hand, which he calls induced after-death communication, or IADC, makes these experiences available to virtually all of you.
He and his colleagues have induced well over 3,000 ADCs in the last eight years.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what we're going to talk about in a moment.
Alright, Dr. Bodkin, welcome to the program.
Thanks for having me, Art.
You're very welcome.
I'm curious, what led you into this field of inquiry in the first place?
I mean, it's not exactly the norm.
It certainly isn't.
I didn't intend to end up where I'm at with it today.
I really stumbled into it.
I started out, I've been working with primarily males at a VA hospital in the Chicago area with post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD.
These guys were all combat veterans who suffered severe and traumatic losses.
I worked for about 20 years on the PTSD unit and for the first 10 or so, We really struggled and life was difficult because once these guys got in touch with their traumatic memories, which we encouraged them to do, that really brought back their experiences in full.
It was a very long, painful kind of work we were doing.
With regard to the human mind, Doctor, I too was in Vietnam.
Oh, I didn't know that.
At any rate... Welcome home.
Thank you.
There are a lot of painful memories and I took a trip back to the Far East, almost went to Vietnam and contemplated going to Vietnam and didn't do it at the last minute for reasons that I'm not even altogether sure of, but I I just decided not to.
What is it about the human brain that when you relive a very traumatic experience, as in war or whatever it is, that there is a process of healing?
What is it about the human brain that is healed by that process?
Well, as I was saying, at first when we were just talking about these traumatic memories, we really weren't doing a good job at healing them.
But then EMDR came along, a discovery by Dr. Francine Shapiro in the mid to late 80s.
And when we started using that, we were one of the first units in the country to start using EMDR on a regular basis.
We found that for the first time we could fairly rapidly help people heal from their memories.
You know, one way of asking this is, you know, why is it if Vietnam was 35 years ago, these guys are still, you know, reliving, still thinking about it.
Actually, given the intensity of the traumatic experiences that people have, you know, it's, you know, of course they're going to remember it.
That's not something you can put away in your mind and close the door and not worry about it again.
They're so emotionally charged and Things in our environment and our everyday life trigger that and cause people with PTSD to then relive.
Now, I've known a lot of people that have gone back and visited Vietnam, you know, Vietnam vets, and they talk about, you know, there being some kind of healing that goes with that.
And I know other vets that would not even think about making the trip because they know on some level they're going to be triggered.
Well, my question though was, What is it about either a return trip to Vietnam in that case or reliving an experience?
What is it in the human brain as a psychologist?
Well, the traumatic memories are so locked in and they replay in one's mind through daily intrusive recollections or through nightmares.
They play over and over just as the event occurred in real time.
When one makes a trip to Vietnam, and perhaps the guy would go to a place where a battle was, where he experienced a trauma, he would see that it's different.
He would see that what's going on in his mind isn't going on there anymore.
So in other words, the reality of today erases the repeating old reality.
Going back and visiting Vietnam, I don't think erases it, but I think it can help quiet some of those memories.
And the only reason I say that is I've talked to a number of vets who did get some healing by going back.
So it's kind of a reprogramming?
Yes.
And that's what EMDR does much more rapidly.
Okay.
I've always wondered about that.
Why that would be a healing process.
Why it wouldn't just rip open an old wound, but instead it seems to...
Generally, at first it will rip it open, but then once it's ripped open, once that memory is accessed and the person then sees that, hey, this is all different now.
Then it can heal.
Then the person incorporates that new information into those old trauma networks in the brain.
That can help to some degree.
I'm not saying it cures traumatic memories.
I've had the going back part.
Yes, I've had some nightmares about Vietnam and I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm so angry about having the nightmares that I don't go back to sleep.
I mean, I'm afraid to go back to sleep or something, I don't know, whatever.
I just won't go back to sleep.
It's like a real nightmare.
Alright, well anyway, you are doing research into People meeting their dead relatives and having encounters with them.
Right.
I've got a million questions, but I'll go with a few of yours.
I mean, Jonathan Edwards, James Von Prague, I know James, he's a very good friend, George Anderson, all of these people claim to be able to bring us information from dead relatives.
Do you believe that they are doing that?
You know, before I stumbled into what I'm doing, and I basically stumbled in through experimenting on variations of design movement treatment, I stumbled into something that started to produce these experiences in my patients.
Now, I strongly differentiate myself from mediums like these folks because I don't have any special powers or gifts.
I just have a technique that works for my patients.
But it sounds very much as though you didn't believe.
Well, I certainly didn't believe.
As a matter of fact, I thought it was all kind of silly until I started talking to hundreds and then a few thousand patients who had very similar experiences to what these medians were reporting.
So I had to go back and take a second look.
And it does seem that Some of these mediums do come up with information at times that goes way beyond chance.
I have some interest in that now, but I guess what I offer that's a little bit different is you don't have to go to a medium now to have someone translate messages.
Then you don't have to think about whether it was a hit or a miss.
You can have the experience yourself.
You've done enough research now that you must have made up your own mind about the reality or not of what you're seeing.
Is it real?
Is it real, Doctor?
Well, kind of what I believe isn't that... I mean, I'll answer that, but what I believe really isn't that important.
What my patients and clients who have the experience, what they believe I think is important.
No, it's important to me.
It is important to me.
After sitting there and listening to a few thousand of these, and the conviction with which these people report their experiences, I have come around to lean towards believing that these people are really communicating with the deceased.
Wow.
Okay.
I would have thought that if I had asked you a certain question, I could have probably ruined the whole rest of the interview.
I would have asked you I think whether it would matter whether they're real or not from your perspective as a psychologist if a person went through a healing experience because they thought they had just communicated with a dead relative and all was well or whether it really happened wouldn't matter that much to you?
You know it doesn't matter generally to psychologists when I present this information and I go give a talk somewhere And sometimes I'll present one of my early cases where this just kind of popped out, and at first I didn't even know what it was.
And I asked a room full of clinicians, well, what do you make of this?
And people say, well, it works.
You know, you have something that works, or that's closure.
And from a purely professional, psychological point of view, this heals grief in a way that I don't even think other therapists even imagine can happen.
It goes beyond what's considered possible.
These people literally leave sessions happy.
And their grief apparently completely resolved.
Yes, I've got that.
But not because you gave them some sort of psychological sugar pill and said it was magic and it was for them.
Because it's real.
You're suggesting to me that you believe it is real.
Well, I started believing it was real when... Actually, the only formal study I did was my first 83 patients.
That I attempted to produce this ADC experience on purpose, and 81 of those 83 had an ADC.
So the reliability of the technique was at 98%.
Out of those 83 people, only 8 of them believed beforehand that such an experience was possible.
Really?
After their experience, 94% of them were absolutely convinced that they had actually communicated with the dead.
There is something very, very convincing about the experience.
Okay, here's something that bothers me, since I think I'm a believer and I think you are too, apparently so.
I read that scientists are able to produce in the human brain, with electrodes attached in the right way, dispensing the right amount of current to the right neurons, I really don't know about all of that, but they're able to produce in a human subject a near-death experience, the tunnel The relative, the relatives there, the friends, the white, soothing, wonderful light, the whole ball of wax.
They're able to induce that scientifically.
And that makes me scratch my head a little bit.
What about you?
Right.
Some of the people who make that argument about NDEs say that these brain mechanisms are triggered in a dying brain.
Right.
And that's why people have this experience.
Well, when I first started inducing these, and I didn't know what they were, they sounded to me like near-death experiences.
Because in these ADC experiences, people often frequently went through tunnels and they very often saw people surrounded by white, beautiful lights and all this kind of stuff.
And so, at first, I thought, you know, gee, this sounds like near-death experiences that my patients are having.
Yes.
My patients aren't anywhere close to death.
They're alive, healthy, very healthy people, and they're having the same experiences that NDE people have, and they're not anywhere close to death.
Plus, my other argument is just because a brain mechanism is responsible for an experience doesn't make the experience not real.
If I go out in my backyard and look at a tree, certain parts of my brain are going to light up.
That doesn't mean I'm hallucinating a tree.
Yes, I do.
I think eventually, once our scientific understanding of this all improves, we're going to see this all go together.
All right.
Exactly how do you induce ADCs?
How are they induced in a person?
Okay.
That's somewhat complicated.
I'll give you the real short version of that.
All right.
I started out by using standard EMDR and then I, as I said, I experimented on some variations with EMDR.
And MDR again standing for?
Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing.
I don't know what that means.
Okay.
EMDR was discovered by Francine Shapiro and essentially her theory on it is it increases brain processing, information processing in the brain.
When we dream at night Our eyes shift back and forth.
That's why we call it REM.
Rapid Eye Movement.
When we dream it appears that our brain is actually processing more than when we're awake or at a higher speed.
It seems like that increased processing causes our eyes to shift when we dream.
Now the discovery of eye movement seems to be that if you take a fully awake person and get his or His or her eyes shifting back and forth, we cause the brain to go into that high processing mode.
And at first I really didn't buy that when it first came out, but that fits all clinical experience.
But it doesn't fit with the process of sleep, does it?
In other words, I thought the human body when we're asleep is supposed to be resting, recuperating, regenerating, etc.
Well, you know, we do and we regenerate and we restore, but part of our restoration comes from that A lot of work our brain does when we're dreaming and we're sleeping.
Maybe our brain is defragging.
Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it.
The discovery of eye movement seems to be that we can utilize that mechanism that occurs during dream sleep when people are awake.
We can tap into that and use it.
You'll see when you do eye movement therapy with somebody, How rapidly they move through things.
It's not a quick fix.
If you want to help someone with a particular psychological problem, you generally have to go through steps A, B, C, and D, let's say.
Is there any way to quantify the difference?
I mean, do I go from a, I don't know, 100 megahertz old clunky computer to a Pentium 4?
How much difference in activity is there?
I don't know.
I don't know the actual gradient of increase in processing.
I don't have that information.
Okay, but significant?
Significant.
Things just move much quicker.
When we first started doing EMDR with our combat veterans, we could literally, sometimes in 10 to 15 minutes, Go through that ABCD that we were unable to do in months and years of therapy with the same problem.
People just move through it more quickly, which then provides clinical evidence that our brains are indeed processing at a much higher level.
This is really fascinating stuff.
We just don't understand enough about our brains yet, do we?
No.
Well, yeah.
One of my favorite sayings is a Thomas Edison, which is, we don't know a millionth of one percent about anything.
And I think we're just in this area with NDE and ADC research and some of this information, you know, it has relevance to questions humankind has had all along.
You know, I think we're really just now just getting started, really taking a look at what's going on, what's going on in the brain, what's going on with different systems.
Are a lot of doctors now beginning to leave the physiological explanation and beginning to join you in believing, either quietly or publicly, that something really is going on beyond the physical?
You know, I offer a challenge to all skeptics, scientists and non-scientists alike.
I don't think by verbal argument I can get anybody really to buy what I'm saying, but my challenge is you come and have the experience yourself.
That's a good one, too.
Doctor, you've got to hold on.
We'll continue after the bottom of the hour here.
We're facing the clock which will not wait from the high deserts.
I'm Art Bell.
Oh, I'll still be standing...
Oh, wow, listen to the music.
Open up!
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-9-4.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Knives.
Hi there, Dr. Alan Botkin is my guest.
We're talking about communications across the veil.
Not just across streets, city, or the world, but across the veil that separates life and death.
We'll be right back.
I'm sure you recall this.
And they killed her.
They iced down her body until all vital signs stopped.
And for 40 or 45 minutes, they operated on this woman, went in, clipped out the aneurysm because she had no blood pressure, because she had no beating heart, sewed her up, warmed her up, returned her to life.
on your death experience and i recall they interviewed uh... some
and of course everybody at the deal is sixty-nine maybe she didn't have an
indian can just really can't remember but uh... they interviewed
uh... doctor about the whole affair and uh... the guy from sixty minutes at the
end of the piece was like shaking his head He was going, where was she for that 40 minutes?
And then they interviewed some doctor and the doctor said something like, well, you know, here's what happened.
The brain is dying from the outside in.
And as that process occurs, dopamine is released so that the person's having a pleasant experience.
And what they're seeing is indeed a center light, the center of the brain, as their brain shrinks toward complete death.
That's what doctors like to say.
And you suggest, doctor, that they ought to come have this experience before they say too much, huh?
Yeah.
Whether it's an NDE or ADC or induced ADC, There's something, like I said, that's very convincing about it.
Whether you begin as a skeptic or a believer, it's very, very convincing.
Alright.
Let's try again.
How specifically do you induce an ADC?
Okay.
As I was saying before, first of all, I changed the way I did eye movement.
So I'm not talking about standard EMDR, the way it's taught.
I changed it considerably.
Essentially, what I did is I began iMovement by going after what I called the core affective issues, the core emotion.
In other words, when someone presents with a grief issue, they usually present a number of feelings, anger, guilt.
You know, anger for how the death occurred, or anger and guilt, maybe I could have done something or I wasn't there when he or she died.
But at the very core of all loss is deep, deep sadness.
And people often use their anger and guilt sort of as a defense, so they don't have to experience their deep sadness.
Well, what I started doing, and I call it core focused EMDR, I began EMDR sessions by going right after the core, right after the core sadness.
And when I did that and was able to successfully process that core sadness, essentially we were done and the more protective feelings of anger and guilt vanished without even being directly addressed.
But I'm actually still not understanding the medical thing that you're doing.
Are you putting a person in a certain state?
Are you creating the state?
What?
Well, I'm simply having them access their core feelings of sadness, and when they access it or are in touch with those feelings, I have them move their eyes in a particular rhythmic fashion.
Oh.
Okay?
So, they're sitting there, they're thinking about the loved one or their friend that they lost, and they're feeling their sadness very deeply.
At that time, I'm giving them my movement.
Set and setting.
Like with the old drug thing, set and setting.
Putting the person in that particular setting of remembering this sadness and addressing the sadness, and then you're starting their eye movement.
And you're actually instructing them, this is eyes open, awake stuff?
They're wide awake.
We're using that part of the brain, I believe, that operates when we're dreaming, but we're using it while they're wide awake.
And you're instructing them how?
You're saying, I want you to start looking left and right rapidly?
Well, there are different ways of doing it.
I have them either follow my hand or something.
I move in front of their face.
And so their eyes are shifting rhythmically while they're re-experiencing their sadness.
This is then almost like a hypnotic... Well, EMDR is different from hypnosis, I believe.
As a matter of fact, I think it's the opposite.
I've had a couple people disagree with me on this, but I think most people who are familiar with both EMDR and hypnosis think of them as different.
If you think of what's going on in your head, your consciousness is like a projector in a screen where the film is always running.
You always have something going on in your head.
What hypnosis does is it slows down the projector You can even stop it on an individual frame and that's why people use hypnosis to recover memories.
Of course, the problem with that is you can also create false memories by putting things on that film that don't belong there when you're in that highly suggestible state.
EMDR, on the other hand, actually, by virtue of the fact that it increases brain processing, it actually gets a stuck projector rolling again.
The reason I say that is guys who have traumatic memories They're stuck in a moment in time when this awful event occurred.
Well, then how would you characterize medically the state that you're inducing?
And if not hypnosis, then?
Well, I would just say it's increased information processing in the brain.
We're speeding things up.
Got it.
And there are even neuroimaging studies, some preliminary studies in the field that indicate that actually different parts of the brain light up Pre and post EMDR.
The part of the brain that lights up prior to EMDR, when the person accesses the memory, it's the older, deeper structures where the fight-or-flight response is.
It's kind of a here-and-now, knee-jerk kind of response.
After EMDR, when a person accesses the memory, the higher parts of the brain light up, where it becomes more of an abstract kind of memory.
It takes the reliving component out of it.
EMDR does not erase the traumatic memory from one's mind, but it takes the reliving component out of it.
I've had guys say after EMDR, he says, you know, this is strange, but you know, it feels like it's 30 years ago now.
It doesn't feel like it happened yesterday.
And you're getting this in an extremely high percentage of patients tried.
There's one more step to this whole induced ADC thing.
Once I started doing this core focused EMDR, I found out that about 15% of my patients were reporting these ADC experiences.
Oh, so you stumbled into the ADC?
I completely stumbled into it.
And when my first patient had one of these experiences, I thought he had just hallucinated.
I didn't even know what an ADC was.
I wasn't taught that in graduate school, and I don't think anybody still is.
Alright.
So, when that started happening about 15% of the time, these guys left the office, these patients, feeling way better than the guys who even fully processed their memory.
Go back to patient zero for you.
What happened?
I mean, what happened?
Tell me about it.
Okay.
It's a wonderful story, and it's the subject of... I will discuss it in my book.
Hopefully I'll have a book deal soon.
Okay, well he came in complaining of what?
Okay.
There's a story here.
Do you want to hear the whole thing?
You bet.
Okay.
This vet, we'll call him Sam, okay?
Sure.
When Sam was in Vietnam, He got really close to a little orphaned Vietnamese girl, about ten years old.
They developed a very close relationship, kind of like a father-daughter relationship.
This little girl, we'll call her Lee, she reminded him of his sisters growing up.
He got very close and very fond of her and so on.
Well, he decided at some point, even wrote home to his wife and parents, and he said he wanted to adopt Lee and bring her back home.
Well, he wasn't aware of the fact that the U.S.
government was very likely not going to allow that, but he had made plans.
Well, one day orders came down that all the local orphaned Vietnamese kids had to be shipped off to a distant So, one day, Sam and some of the other soldiers were loading about 12 little kids up on a flatbed truck to be taken away, and Sam was all broken up.
He realized he might not see Lee again, and so on and so forth, and it was right around that time, shots rang out, and a sniper was shooting at him.
Bullets were zipping over everyone's heads, so the soldiers pulled the kids off the flatbed and onto the ground to a point of relative safety.
As soon as the shooting started, as quickly as it started, it stopped.
Somebody got the sniper, or the sniper ran off, I forget.
They started loading the kids back onto the truck, and they were getting the kids up, and Sam noticed he didn't see Lee anywhere.
And Sam walked around to the back of the truck and saw Lee laying face down with a spot of blood on her back.
And when he rolled her over, he saw that a single bullet had gone through her back and blew the front part of her torso completely open and she was dead.
And that was really the cause of Sam's psychological undoing at that point.
And he became very angry.
Pretty much lived the rest of his time in Vietnam in a full rage to protect himself from that deep loss.
When he came home, he pretty much isolated in his basement and even avoided his own daughter, who reminded him of Lee.
But anyway, he came in.
He presented this in a group situation and we went to sit down to do eye movement and I went right after his sadness.
And another thing I do differently from standard EMDRs, I always have my patients close their eyes after I give them a set of this eye movement.
Yes.
But anyway, we're working on his sadness and he at one point closed his eyes.
And all of a sudden his big smile came over his face.
And he's sitting there with his eyes closed with this big smile across his face.
And I thought that was kind of unusual.
I'd never seen that before when you're working on something of a loss this awful.
Sure.
But anyway, he opened his eyes.
He said, I saw Lee.
I talked to her.
I said, what?
And he said, yeah, she appeared to me as a 30-year-old woman, fully grown.
She was beautiful.
She was in a long white gown.
She was surrounded by white light.
And he said, She kind of just floated up to me and thanked me for taking care of her back then.
And Sam mentally, not out loud, I didn't hear this, but mentally said to Lee, you know, I miss you so much.
I love you.
And she said, I love you too, Sam.
And then Lee, in this experience, Lee reached out and gave him a hug.
And when Sam had opened his eyes and was telling me this story, he was saying, I could actually feel her arms around me.
Well, Sam was absolutely convinced that he had spoken or communicated with Lee's spirit, and he was absolutely full of joy.
First thing that I guess hit me, if I can just interrupt, is if his brain was concocting something to protect itself, to heal itself.
Then you would have expected that his brain would have manifested a Lee as he remembered her, not as she might have been at 30 years old.
That's number one.
Yes.
It certainly was very, very different from any memory he had of Lee.
So we weren't pulling a memory.
We were pulling something that he experienced as a here and now kind of experience.
I thought he hallucinated.
I thought he just had what some people call a grief hallucination where your brain just does that for you under conditions of extreme pain.
Did you tell him that?
Actually, I probably tried to act professional and I didn't tell him anything at that point because I wasn't sure what happened and I don't like to tell patients I'm just taking wild shots at.
But privately I thought he had hallucinated and so I thought the results wouldn't last.
Well you know I saw this guy a week later and then a month later and then I talked to him a couple years later and whereas before he couldn't even talk about Lee and the death of her.
It was so painful.
He loved talking about her.
He was happy when you brought the subject of Lee up.
If he hallucinated, I figured his happiness wouldn't last.
But it did.
As a matter of fact, that was about eight years ago.
I haven't talked to him in the last year or two.
But as of a five-year follow-up, he was still feeling really good about the whole thing.
And automatically, his situation at home dramatically improved, where he was relating to his daughter the first time and so on.
Because his daughter then no longer triggered painful memories.
What's so therapeutic about the induced ADC is that that positive experience tends to Take the place of the negative experience.
And sometimes after an ADC, a person will say, you know, I can't even bring up that awful image of, you know, when I turned Lee over and that, that picture in my head when I saw her dead, you know, I can't, you know, he said, you know, before it used to come to me every night.
And now it's like, I have a hard time even bringing up that negative image.
It must change.
Everything.
I mean, if you honestly believe you just had an experience meeting with, interacting with a person who is dead, it would change your view not just about the incident, I would think, but about every aspect of life.
To understand that this life is not over when it's over, that there really is more, is so profound.
That is a good point.
What I have found kind of It goes against that a little bit.
Let me tell you, I say quite often that beliefs really have nothing to do with this, because it doesn't matter if you believe it's going to work for you or not, but before I do the procedure, as a matter of fact, skeptics are even a little easier to induce.
It doesn't matter what you believe.
It also doesn't matter what you believe afterwards, because 94% My first study believed that they actually communicated with the deceased, but even the 6% that didn't still experienced a full resolution of grief.
So it was the experience itself that was healing, not a subsequent change in belief.
Now the other thing is, the third argument why beliefs, I think, play a minor role in all of this, is I would have thought if you had an ADC with one deceased person, that would help you with other losses in your life.
Because then you now believe that there's a better place and so on and so forth, and now, you know, the death of, say you worked on the death of your friend, and now you shouldn't be sad about the death of your mother.
One would think.
But that doesn't hold.
Why?
You know, I don't know.
Other than to say that beliefs play just such a small role in this, it doesn't matter what you believe.
It's the experience itself that's healing.
What we do then, once a person has an after-death communication, they frequently want to do more.
Then we work on the death of grandmother, or the death of mother, or whoever else you want to work on.
For some reason, we have to do each one of those separately.
I think that the basis of this deep sadness is a sense of disconnection.
The basic sense of this person is no longer here, this person is no longer with me, that's
at the core of the deep sadness which I go after.
The ADC experiences provide a sense of reconnection.
So it fixes that particular disconnection.
But why isn't that ADC experience broader in scope?
I mean, it's so profound, you're talking, you have just talked to, interacted with a person who is dead.
That would have implications far beyond the single, or should have, beyond the single experience.
It does in some ways.
It does in terms of people becoming convinced that there is such a thing as an afterlife and they may fear their own death less.
I would think.
It does have that kind of carryover.
I'm just saying it doesn't help them with a different loss.
The whole thing so far is absolutely remarkable.
Dr. Alan Botkin is my guest.
We're talking about ADHD.
sees communications with those who've passed on
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It's one we're all going to take.
My guest is Dr. Alan Botkin.
He is taking patients many, many, many through ADC's communications with the dead.
More in a moment.
Dr. Botkin, for your own edification, have you ever attempted to acquire what would pass as proof
that these communications are going on?
Any sort of piece of contemporary information or anything that would set you on the trail of knowing this for sure?
No, I don't think I have anything like that.
I think something like some kind of proof is possible.
Let me tell you a few things about that.
First of all, after having done a couple thousand of these, there are many times that a person receives information that the patient didn't know.
And each time we were able to verify that, we found out that that information was indeed true.
Now, but that, those are just kind of anecdotal kinds of stories.
Well, perhaps so, but that's what I meant.
Yeah.
Whether we could set up some kind of an experiment, you know, to verify it, is another whole story.
You know, frequently in an induced after-death communication, sometimes people show up and My patient will say, well, why was he there?
He's alive.
I haven't seen him in five years, but he's alive.
Each time we were able to check and verify that, we found out that indeed that person had died.
Now, probably the closest thing that comes to any kind of proof is something we did.
We sort of stumbled onto this, too.
This is kind of an interesting story.
I trained many doctoral level interns in psychology and I taught them how to do this procedure and they got just as good at it as I was.
I don't have any special powers.
I think the powers and the techniques.
I had an intern once who He had seen me induce ADCs before and was very good at inducing ADCs himself.
Well, one day I was going to induce a patient and he came in and sat and observed the session again because he didn't have anything else to do.
He asked if he could watch another one and I and the patient both said yes.
Sure.
Well, he came in and sat down and while I was working with the patient, for some reason this intern closed his eyes and started giving himself eye movement.
Well, something very, very unusual happened, which was my intern essentially eavesdropped in on my patient's ADC.
They had the exact same experience at the exact same time.
Holy mackerel!
Now, if these are brain-induced hallucinations, it's more difficult to believe that these two people randomly had the same hallucination at the same time.
I'll say.
If you get two people looking at the same thing... In fact, what does that say?
...then it offers a strong argument that there's some objective reality going on.
Ah, indeed.
And we did this seven or eight times, and we kind of cleaned it up in terms of how we did this so we wouldn't misinterpret it.
And my intern with them, and I did this with a couple different people, The observer would move his or her eyes while we did this, but before the patient said anything about his experience, and I say his because I worked in a VA, the intern would write down everything he or she experienced, and then hand me that piece of paper, and then the patient would say what his experience was, and it was essentially the same thing that I was doing.
The same thing.
Well, how does it feel to have apparently discovered the key to communication on the other side?
I mean, what does it feel like?
You know, I'm not the first.
And really, Raymond Moody was the first to do that with his psychomantium approach.
Yes, yes.
You see the same conduit to the same... Yeah, I think the difference between the psychomantium approach and the EMDR approach is my approach is just a little quicker and a little more efficient.
My success rate is a little higher.
When I first started doing this, like I said, out of my first 83 patients, I was getting a reliability at about a 98%.
Nearly everybody was having this kind of experience.
Speaking of patients, I have one of your patients on the line.
Oh, wonderful!
A young fellow named Jimmy.
Hi, Jimmy.
Hi.
You were a patient of Dr. Bakken's?
Yes.
How long ago, Jimmy?
A year.
A year ago?
Jimmy, what happened to you, and why did you go to Dr. Botkin, and what happened?
Well, I was part of a PTSD program, and he was running the ITP, that's Intensive Trauma Programming.
Vietnam?
Yes.
Okay.
And I was having the nightmares, Every night you wake up in a cold sweat and you know you're a vet.
And it's like every bit of the pain and the remembrance is so fresh it could have just happened.
It actually makes me angry when it happens.
Anyway.
You can always reach out and touch it.
It's just that clear.
So you went to Dr. Botkin.
Obviously, something happened you didn't expect.
Yes, it did.
The incident that happened when I was in Vietnam in My Lai, I was standing on a berm and there were some choppers flew in.
Now, outside the berm and outside of Wire and Claymores was a place called Booby Traps City.
We knew Booby Traps was everywhere, just everywhere.
And evidently there were some wrong coordinates given to these Marines.
They got helicoptered in.
Four of them jumped out of the helicopter and hit mines.
Okay, I stood there.
I was waving.
Everybody was waving to them.
Don't jump.
But there was nothing we could do.
That lives in my mind every night.
Every night I could see it.
I could see the explosion.
You could see the body parts fly everywhere.
Okay.
And Dr. Bakken gave me eye movement.
Yes.
And, uh, I actually, and it was painful at first.
I went all the way back.
I mean, you could still smell the same, uh, scents that were there.
It was so real.
And, um, I actually talked to the four Marines that were there because I was feeling guilty because I couldn't do anything.
I was just standing there and I couldn't do a thing.
Can you remember, Jimmy, from the time the Rapid Eye Movement began until you began to experience something that was detached from this reality, how quick was it?
Was it a fast thing?
Fast, yes it was.
It was fast.
Very fast.
And you were there?
I was there.
It was in a matter of minutes.
And then how did These Marines manifest themselves to you?
I mean, were they just standing there?
In what kind of setting?
It was back to the same place where it happened.
I moved it back to the place where it happened.
I was right there.
And the Marines told me that there was nothing that I could do.
Stop feeling sorry because there was nothing that I could have done.
It was an error.
Someone gave the wrong coordination.
And when the moment that they said that relief came on me and I have been able to deal with this a lot better than I that I had before.
Have you ever wondered, Jimmy, or even cared whether this was something inside your own brain?
Or whether it's as real as you and I talking on the phone and the radio right now.
Does it matter?
Yes, it does matter.
I needed to know and I didn't want this to be something that was false or fake or something that I created in my own mind.
Right.
I knew in If you did it yourself, you would know and you would understand.
I knew that it took me back there.
Everything was so real, so real, that it's hard to believe.
It really is hard to believe that just sitting down and getting the eye movement, that it could actually take you back to the time that you were there.
That is incredible.
It's incredible.
And not only that, The second incident that has to do with this one is, I often wonder why there were so many booby traps there.
Why we didn't, our unit didn't sweep that area to locate these booby traps.
I never could understand that.
But Dr. Bakken took me back because I wasn't satisfied.
He took me back again, not the same day, but next time I had the street and the eye movement, and I actually went back and saw the entrance to an underground tunnel, and that's why it was booby-trapped so heavy, which no one ever knew.
And yet, you did know, your unit knew that those mines were there because you were trying to wave them off.
So you knew something.
I mean, you knew they were out there to some degree, right?
Right.
Never knew why.
Never knew that there was an entrance to a tunnel.
And that's how VC were in the area so often and so quick and were gone.
Here, in a moment, and then gone.
Since the Since the treatment, Jimmy, how's it been?
The nightmares aren't as bad.
They're there, but for that one incident, it is much better.
I am able to deal with that.
The guilt is not as strong as it was for that incident.
That's remarkable.
Yes, it is.
Jimmy, thank you.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
So there you are, and you were right.
You said that it relates to the specific incident or person, but not beyond that, which is what he's saying.
It doesn't generalize to other incidents.
Right.
Because it's like, if a person has one ADC, to frame it in those terms, A loss creates that profound sense of disconnection.
When you have an induced after-death communication and reconnect, that resolves that sadness or that loss and all the attendant guilt and anger and so on.
But that reconnection does not generalize to other disconnections.
Well, let me try one on you here.
Through a belief system?
Yeah, let me try one on you.
Okay.
If this is a real phenomena, then surely, Doctor, at times the person having the ADC was perhaps somehow horribly in the wrong, or the person that died really blames their death on the person having the ADC.
I guess what I'm asking is, do ADCs ever turn out to be Negative affairs.
It always seems like it's healing, but how can it be?
That's a great question, and I welcome the opportunity to answer that.
Fire away.
Out of the few thousand ABCs that I and my colleagues have done, they have all been positive.
Now, that even includes people who have ABC'd horribly abusive fathers.
And one would think that by having the patient access the memory of the deceased father and so on and so forth, and if a person was imagining this, they would see in their ADC this horribly abusive father.
But these horribly abusive fathers always come across as sincerely apologetic, Sincerely willing to take all responsibility for what they did.
They seem to be very, their experience is very, very different and I think I know why.
When a person has a near-death experience or a death experience rather, one of the components is the life review.
People who have had a life review as a part of their near-death experience come back as completely changed people because what happens is You not only experience all the feelings that you had in life from moment to moment, you also experience the feelings you caused in others.
So you can imagine an abusive person, or a person who was by all standards a bad guy in life, having a life review and seeing the pain and the agony that you've caused in other people.
That life review is really a life-changing experience.
It's a real eye-opener.
I have interviewed many.
Oh, yes, indeed.
Yeah, and so it's interesting to note that when you induce an after-death communication, the deceased are always experienced as if they have been through a life review.
Maybe this has something to do with... I mean, we could look at the biblical end of it, for example, and assume that even the very worst criminals who Seek Jesus before the very end and the switch is thrown, or whatever.
Actually do get it, that there is that forgiveness, and then we're dealing with a different sort over on the other side.
Right.
Whether they get that forgiveness at the moment they convert, or they're starting perhaps in the right direction, but when they have the life review, then I think they totally convert.
Can I just add one more point just for completeness?
You certainly may.
You asked me about how do I do this induction, and I left out the very last part of it, which is crucial.
As I was saying, when I was first doing this core focused eye movement, which is a different form of eye movement, about 15% of my guys were having this experience.
And I thought, wouldn't it be nice if I could raise that beyond 15% so more people could have this good feeling?
I went back and looked in my notes in cases where people had the experience and in cases where people didn't have the experience, and I noticed in the cases where people did have the experience, I did do one other thing differently, which was I induced, accidentally at the time, a state of receptivity, or what I call a receptive mode.
In other words, I gave them my movement when I got their sadness down, And I asked, I told, I instructed them just go with whatever happens.
And essentially at the time I was giving them that last set of eye movement just to help them relax further.
And it was at that point people started having these after-death communications.
So then I thought, well I wonder if I added this, you know, receptive mode thing at the end with an additional set of eye movement that You know, I could improve on it.
And that's when the 15% jumped all the way up to 98%.
Then virtually everybody was having it.
So I had to induce the state of receptivity.
So it's a second set of instructions given at the right moment to begin the rapid eye movement.
This is after you've been through the most, the sadness.
After the sadness, now when I first sit down and start doing eye movement on the sadness, the sadness goes through the roof.
Yeah.
And I take a lot of time, a lot of care with patients I work with.
I tell them to warn them of that ahead of time.
Your sadness is going to go up.
But if it does, you stay with me.
Just stay with me.
But once the sadness goes up, I move them and the sadness starts to come down.
At that point, I give them another set of eye movement with the idea of inducing this state of receptivity.
And that's when the ADC starts.
So you've developed this procedure now to the point where you can take in the high 90 percentile?
Okay, this is the perfect time for that question, too.
I was doing virtually everybody, 98 percent, and the 2 percent that they weren't having ADCs, it was really clearly obvious why.
They just didn't want to follow through on the procedure or something else came up they didn't want to work on or something.
Doctor, hold your response.
We're at the bottom of the hour and we'll be right back and we'll deal with that 2% and find out what the percentage is from the high desert.
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Indeed it is.
Dr. Alan Botkin is my guest.
We're talking about communication with the other side through a procedure he's discovered.
Stay right there because there is more.
Once again, Dr. Alan Botkin.
Doctor, welcome back.
Thank you.
Alright, you were about to talk to us about, you said you had 98% and then you had 2% that you couldn't move, couldn't get to have this experience.
Yes.
When that was happening, I actually considered the idea of Offering this to people and actually guaranteeing the results.
If you don't have an ADC, you don't owe me anything, which of course would be unheard of in the field of psychology or even medicine for that matter.
I did run into a little bit of a snag, which was once I was announced to my services, and people can get that on inducedadc.com, But once I announced my services, people then started coming to me to have an ADC experience.
The 98% were people who came to me for trauma work or grief work.
They weren't coming with the expectation of having an ADC.
Those people were just simply easier to induce.
When people were coming to me to have the experience, their sense of expectation Their anticipation.
Yes.
I tended to attract people that already had beliefs that something like this was real and so on and so forth.
They were loaded with beliefs.
Those people, I found out, were a little bit more difficult to induce.
And the reason is that those beliefs and expectations and so on It seems so counterintuitive.
It does.
I've learned a lot of things that surprised me along the way.
Again, I go back to beliefs really don't matter.
As a matter of fact, skeptics are easier to induce because when you put them in that receptive mode, they're not really trying to do anything.
But anyway, the 98% dropped to about 70%.
So people who seek it, the chances are about 70% as best I can figure, but that's considerably lower than the 98%.
You're right, these are surprises.
So people who seek it, the chances are about 70% as best I can figure, but that's considerably
lower than the 98%.
You're right, these are surprises.
What about people with significant religious disposition, very strong fundamentalist type
believers?
Well, my experience is whether they're strong fundamentalists or perhaps more enlightened new age type person, it's the same thing.
if they come with certain expectations and beliefs, sometimes it's hard to get that stuff to quiet down.
Do you believe in ghosts?
Uh...
You know, I believe in something that I've experienced myself directly or when I talk to, you know, hundreds of people who tell me that they saw the same thing, then I tend to believe there's something to it.
If I never see it or I don't talk to anybody who ever saw it, you know, then I remain a skeptic.
Now, ghosts are scary.
You know, Halloween's coming up and so on, and all the induced ADCs I've done, there's nothing scary about it.
Now, beforehand, people might say, you know, Doc, this sounds spooky or scary.
I don't know if I want to do it.
Well, it does.
It does, but once you get in the experience, there's absolutely nothing scary or frightening about it.
Now, you know, I think people maybe believe in ghosts, Just like why people like to ride on roller coasters.
But why not?
Why is the concept of a ghost any more out on the limb than Dr. Botkin is with what he's discovered?
I mean, in a way, they complement each other.
The possibility of ghosts is certainly complemented by the fact that you can take people back and have conversations, apparently contemporary ones, with dead people.
Right.
So it's not such a leap.
Right.
It's just that I haven't had any kind of direct personal or clinical experience with that.
I understand.
And maybe other people have and know something about it.
I just have to say, you know, I don't.
Well, let's try this out.
Other than those colleagues of yours that you have worked with You know, in this procedure, teaching this procedure to or explaining to them, but in the larger medical community, Doctor, how are you being received?
Or have you published?
I mean, where are you with this?
Well, my original study, which describes the technique and has a few cases in it and so on, appeared in the Spring 2000 edition of the Journal of Near-Death Studies.
And I put it in that journal because of the similarity I believed at the time between after-death communications and NDEs or near-death experience.
I soon came to believe that they're really essentially the same phenomenon experienced from somewhat different perspectives, of course.
First and only published work so far.
Right now we have a book proposal out there and we're trying to get a publishing deal.
If any publishers are out there, please give me a call.
Well, that would have been a friendly publication.
I was kind of looking for the mainstream psychiatric community.
Are they aware of your work?
People in mainstream psychology, those aren't the people I've gone after right away.
I can imagine.
And perhaps it's because I expect to not be well-received at the beginning, but anyways, I hope to do more research.
I was fortunate enough to have breakfast with Dr. Gary Schwartz the other day.
Oh, yes.
And you're familiar with him.
He's been on your show a few times.
Oh, yes.
And with his lab he has in Arizona, I would love to do hard research on this and use EEG equipment and MRIs to see exactly what's going on in the brain.
And maybe do some of these shared ADCs I mentioned, where two people have the same experience.
That certainly was going to be one of my questions.
I would love for someone else to pick this up and do it, because if I do research on my own hypothesis, then it's going to be a little bit more questionable.
Well, speculate for me a little bit.
If you could get a good picture of what was going on in the brain during one of these experiences, Doctor, what do you imagine you would note?
You know, I don't know.
Take a wild guess.
Do you think that frontal lobe activity would suddenly go berserk?
Probably not frontal lobe.
That's more higher executive function.
I would say that we'd probably have to quiet down.
The frontal lobes would probably become quieted.
Oh, really?
In the procedure and maybe more deep brain structures would become activated.
Well, you need this research as an excerpt, don't you?
Yeah.
You know, my findings are very preliminary.
This is not yet accepted by mainstream.
I can imagine.
The findings that I and my colleagues are getting are so robust, so consistent, that I think eventually it's going to find its way into mainstream.
Any conversations with Dr. Moody?
Yes.
Raymond Moody is my hero in my adult life.
I was honored when he invited me a few years ago to go speak at the University of Nevada at Las Vegas.
I went and did a presentation there.
And God had a chance to spend a couple days with Raymond and kind of follow him around and talk.
I just think he's a wonderful person.
He was the first to do this and I just sort of came along with something maybe just a
little quicker and a little more reliable.
He started this all.
I remember when his book came out, I remember life after life came out and somewhere in
the 70s I thought, boy, that sounds like a bunch of blue raha and so on.
But he made the point in his book that, you know, people aren't going to tell you about their NDEs, you know, unless you ask them in a sincere kind of way, because people don't go around telling everybody because they know that other people are going to think they're crazy.
Anyway, working in a hospital with many people who are very sick and so on, or had situations on the battlefield, I began to ask and I found out that indeed NDEs were very common.
And I've talked to many hundreds of people who have had near-death experiences.
But then Raymond Moody came up with his book, Reunions, where he presented the psychomantium approach, where he was actually inducing these after-death communications.
That's right.
And I thought, well, you know, I thought Raymond Moody did such great work with NDEs.
It sounds to me like he's going off on the deep end now.
I thought, this sounds goofy.
I didn't buy it right away.
But anyway, once I stumbled into ADCs many years later, like I said, the first thing I related it to were near-death experiences, my patients' experiences.
You know, Raymond was always so many steps ahead of the rest of us.
It took me a lot of time to catch up, and who knows what he's up to now, but I bet you it's good.
In all of this, Doctor, is there any work you've done that would indicate the reality of a concept like soul, spirit, you know, the soul?
Do you think that There's any reality to that, that that is in fact what you're communicating with, the soul?
Well, any theory on that starts with, I believe, people who have had the experience.
Like I say, the technique works even better with skeptics.
You can change a skeptic's mind completely.
You know, with a half-hour session.
Sure.
You know, there's something powerful that's going on that certainly deserves attention.
And, like I said, when people have the same ADC experience at the same time, that tends to prove there's some kind of an objective reality to the experience.
But beyond that, I think there's some recent findings in the field of biophysics that I think are absolutely astounding.
For example?
And may eventually explain a lot of this stuff.
I'm listening.
Back in the, I believe it was the fifties, the Kirlians developed a special photography procedure where they saw this aura around living things by their special development of their pictures.
That never really caught on.
It was difficult to replicate and scientists at the time didn't really have any models That would help them understand what this could possibly be.
Of course, people at the time thought, well, maybe this aura, this energy that we're seeing in these pictures, you know, maybe has something to do with the solar spirit.
You know, a few people, a few of the hippies picked up on it back then, but then it kind of died.
Recent biophysicists across the planet, and it's primarily in Europe and Asia, and there's not too much going on in the United States, But they have been finding that all living systems do indeed emit light and emit information.
Light, or photons, carry information in a very efficient manner.
Right.
And it's certainly possible that this may eventually explain the concept of solar spirit.
And that's another kind of thing I'd like to work on in Dr. Schwartz's Energy Lab.
It's sort of measuring some of these biofields, these energy fields, to see if we're getting changes in those during an ADC.
But once light is emitted, which carries this information, once we die, all the information that we emitted for a lifetime is still there.
Once emitted, it doesn't depend on its source anymore.
It's the same thing when you turn on a flashlight Once the flashlight doesn't work and you throw it away, well, all the light that that flashlight emitted for its lifetime continues on and is no longer dependent on the source.
It's the same thing when we look at stars at night.
You know, we think we, quote, see stars.
Yes, but the big question is, is it a sentient continuance?
In other words, yes, the light continues, the information continues, nothing dies in that sense, but does it continue to be sentient?
Well, people...ABCs would say yes, right?
Yeah.
People are beginning to do medical diagnoses by detecting changes in the field.
All the information apparently that's in the physical body is also in a redundant fashion in the field.
My only speculation is why wouldn't consciousness Also be redundant in the field.
Well, Doctor, this is how healers claim to be able to do what they do.
They literally read an aura and they can suggest, uh-huh, liver trouble or whatever.
And I have talked and met with some people who are into that kind of research, and it's very interesting.
It's very different from what I'm doing, but may ultimately be going in the same direction.
Do you feel as though you're getting pretty far out on a limb professionally with all of this?
Yeah.
Some people have admired my courage.
Sometimes I have a hard time deciding if I'm a genius or a fool.
But when I sat there working with these patients and we did When I sat there working with these patients and we did a
few thousand ADCs, I became convinced that it was my duty to bring this to the rest of the people
on the planet.
It's something that's good, it's very healing and it may lead to some ultimate answers about
the whole life and death issue.
I really feel it's my moral duty to get this out.
That's why I'm on your show tonight.
I want people to know about this.
I want other scientists and researchers to pick up on it.
I'd really like to get this ball rolling.
What do you think the ultimate effects of literally opening the door between life and death, Doctor, would be?
If you could get this out and it became commonplace and that door swung wide open, is that ultimately for society a good thing?
I think so.
I think some people ask the question Well, gee, you know, if it's so nice over there and if this is true that there is indeed an afterlife, you know, aren't a bunch of people going to go out and commit suicide?
No.
No.
And the answer to that is no.
And to any of those who might consider suicide, I would want you to think of this.
Suicide is ultimately a very selfish act.
Because generally, whether you've got a million friends or one friend in life, Or one person that cares about you.
When you kill yourself, you're going to hurt those other people.
And in your life reviewed, in your near-death experience, you're going to experience the hurt you caused in other people.
And that will not be one of the better moments?
No, that will not be one of the better moments in the life review.
So anyone who would consider that, you know, consider suicide, you need to think about that.
The lessons of NDE's and ADC's as well is that life is important, love is important, Our connections with others are what it's all about.
And suicide is... Not the way... neglects all that importance.
But again, swinging that door wide open worldwide would have a profound impact on all societies.
I mean, it seems to me it would anyway, to suddenly have the understanding that they are all there.
They're all still there.
If this is true, you can't kill someone and they go away forever.
You're going to eventually have to face them again.
Indeed, the combat vets I've worked with and the people they've killed, at the time they might have killed somebody feeling a lot of anger and rage and exhilaration, but later in life when that anger starts to drop off, It can be much later in life.
People start to feel guilty.
I remember the look of fear in the eyes of the enemy before I shot him and so on.
That face-to-face kind of killing was always very difficult.
Many of my vets had ADC'd enemy soldiers they killed.
They always worked it out.
It always ended up a positive result.
As a matter of fact, it's interesting.
Some of my vets have come away.
Many of them have said, you know, they say, you know, Doc, it's really strange.
I just not only feel like he and I are okay with each other, I feel like we now have a special bond, like we're friends.
Doctor, hold on.
We're at the top of the hour.
When we come back, yes, we'll open up the telephone lines and you can ask Dr. Alan Botkin what you will about ADCs.
From the high desert, I'm Art Bell and this is Post to Post AM.
The official website of Coast to Coast AM is www.coasttocoastam.com.
Log on now.
Oh, I am. So clear to me now.
Oh, oh.
I am He and you are I.
¶¶ ¶¶
¶¶ ¶¶
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Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
Bye-bye, everybody. I'd like to remind you that if you don't get Saturday and Sunday,
I'm here both Saturday and Sunday night.
And if your radio station is not carrying both of these nights, then you're missing out!
And what you need to do Monday is pick up the telephone, call your radio station, say, what's up?
Coast is on Saturdays and Sundays.
We want it all.
And don't forget Ghost to Ghost, coming up this next Friday night.
I'll be here for that event, and, uh, toward that end, I would like those of you who are willing and who have really good ghost stories, very best, the cream hoodie crop, you know, the scary ones, give me a little synopsis, just a paragraph or two, if you would, please, and, uh, include your telephone number, and then be available come the 31st when the show hits the air, and maybe we'll call you.
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Once again, artbell, a-r-t-b-e-l-l at mindspring.com.
Don't miss it coming up this Halloween.
Dr. Botkin back with your calls in a moment.
Just before the telephones, let me ask this.
Dr. Botkin, is there any indication in all of these IEDCs you've taken people through of the conditions or what the other side is like or anything beyond the interpersonal communication that takes place between your patients and those who have passed?
Anything to indicate what the other side is like, what the living conditions are like?
I know it seems like a silly question, but everybody wants to know.
You know, yeah.
A few general themes come through consistently.
One of those is that the environment that people experience on the other side is very Earth-like.
Now that's comforting.
People who expect, for whatever reason, that they're going to see the deceased holding a harp and sitting on a cloud up in the sky, they don't get that.
And they're surprised.
Many of my patients with certain traditional beliefs are surprised by the earthly environment.
And if all living things emit this information into this dimension, You know, it's not surprising that it would be very earthly.
Believe it or not, we've even ADC'd pets.
People, deceased pets of course, and people talk about there being rich and beautiful gardens that seem to radiate energy and they glow.
One of my favorite comments was a guy said it was the most beautiful garden I've ever seen.
He said it was the greenest green I've ever seen.
This might sound a little silly to some, but if all living things emit information into this dimension, plants also go.
Well, sure.
Is there any indication that people tend to receive, in terms of their living conditions there, their expectations?
In other words, I don't know take me for example if I were to pop off tomorrow I'd want radio over on the other side or something that passes fucking radio all my life all around me So I want some radio over there.
You see what I'm getting at?
Do people get their expectations, or are we going to end up in gardens?
You'd rather be next to a radio than in a beautiful garden.
Well, yeah, I'm pointing that out.
Well, you know, I'm not really sure about that.
I couldn't tell you.
I don't know.
Honest answer.
That's good.
People are seen fishing.
Well, then there's going to be radio.
That's been very encouraging to people who like to fish.
I haven't seen people doing a radio show, but you know who knows.
Well, that's right.
The other thing that consistently comes through is a message, and it's a broad, more philosophical kind of comforting message, but the main message that comes through is three words, and those are, everything is okay.
Don't worry.
You know, don't be sad.
Don't feel guilty.
You know, you can give up your anger.
It's all okay.
Everything's okay.
All of our fears, all of our anxieties, are just sort of self-created and sort of products of our current existence.
Mm-hmm.
I can believe that.
All right, let's rock.
First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Dr. Bakken.
Hello.
Good morning, Art.
Doctor?
Hi.
My name is Andrew.
I'm calling out of Akron, Ohio.
WTAM 1100.
Yes.
I have a remarkable story I'd like to quickly share with you and your listeners.
It coincides with exactly what you're talking about this evening.
This gentleman, all your viewers.
We don't have viewers unless they're just staring at the radio.
I'm a little nervous.
That's alright.
I've listened to you since late 98.
I never really even believed in paranormal or ghosts or any of that.
Everything I now believe in and now have learned has come directly from your show and the guests that you've had on.
While I am a believer, this did happen to me.
Quickly, I'll share.
Eight months ago, I was driving down the highway, beautiful Friday night, in a convertible on my way out, and I saw a bunch of kids down off the side of the road by a car and thought, hey, no big deal.
I'll pull off the side of the highway here.
I was on a main route highway.
Um, walked down to the car, find out they needed help.
It looked like, you know, they were off the road.
I'm going to help them push a car back on the road.
So, you know, they don't get busted by the police.
I get down to the car and I see the looks on everyone's face and it's just absolute panic and, um, frustration and I can't understand what's wrong.
I can't understand what's wrong.
Finally, I looked down and, I see what later I find out to be a 13-year-old girl laying underneath the front tire.
I showed up maybe two minutes after this happened, but they were cut off.
The car did several flips, landed on its wheels.
This little 13-year-old girl weighed maybe 100 pounds, ended up, I guess, getting thrown from the car and ended up underneath the left front tire.
Yes.
The amount of helplessness that was there, It was me and probably three or four teenage kids.
I had no idea what to do.
So I kind of rallied everyone and I got them all to pick up the car.
We all got on the one left side of the car.
It was a Grand Dam, something similar to a Grand Dam.
Yes.
We were able to pick up the entire car from the side all along the driver's side.
You had a horrible experience.
to push it all the way over so it's laying upside down now on the side of the road.
Right.
And I went down to the girl and kind of like what you said with that marine,
half of her face wasn't even there.
She weighed more than 100 pounds. I was trying to feel her neck.
So you had a very, you had a horrible experience. You had a, you have had a,
you're having a post reaction to this experience.
what you explain what you explain it is exactly true The image, the image that you go with and that comes up every single day.
I lived a very sheltered life, a very good life.
So you want to, you want to somehow deal with this experience?
It happened.
It happened.
I'm so elated.
I'm so guilt free.
I, I met her.
I met her using the tools that I learned on this show.
The gentleman who came on talking about the, The things in your temples that look like almonds?
I picked up on that right away.
My whole life, I've always been psychic.
I've always been able to make lights go on and off.
I just never was able to control it.
And with everything I've learned from all your different guests, I've been able to control amazing things.
Well, that's because brain can do amazing things.
Are you saying that this girl died and then you communicated with her later?
Yes, he's gone, but that's what he was saying.
Yes, that he had the experience, roughly the experience, the ADC experience that you're talking about now.
Can these occur in a spontaneous way?
Yes.
Yes, as a matter of fact, the Guggenheims in their book, Hello from Heaven, We mentioned this at the beginning of the show.
20% of the population in North America have had these experiences spontaneously, so they're not at all rare.
The thinking in the field is that some people are just fortunate enough to have them and others aren't.
Of course, things are changing now in that regard.
Boy, I sure would like to know what goes on in the brain during one of these experiences.
That's something we have got to find out quickly.
Yeah, and we can do that now.
We haven't been able to study near-death experiences and after-death communications because they only occur randomly and spontaneously.
But now that we can purposely produce them, we can now study them for the first time.
So I would hope that some researchers would pick up on this.
West of the Rockies.
You're on air with Dr. Bakken.
Good evening.
Morning.
Whatever.
Hello.
Good morning.
Yes, good morning.
Hi.
This is Lori.
I'm calling from Phoenix.
Yes, ma'am.
K-F-Y-I.
I can relate to that man that just called.
Mine is different, though.
My fiancé passed away almost seven months ago.
And I am having, you know, it's a daily vision because I was the one that found him.
And I was wanting to know if there It's a technique that can be done at home without having to go to somebody to be able to do this.
That's a good question and probably a lot of listeners would ask that.
The EMDR that I use to produce the experience is so powerful that it's not a good idea for one to do it on oneself.
But it could be done?
Yeah.
As a matter of fact, I've done it on myself and I know other professionals who have done it to themselves.
I was going to ask about that.
Why do you consider it dangerous, Doctor, or inadvisable?
The ADC itself, like I say, they're always positive, at least so far out of the few thousand we've done.
The danger in it is EMDR is so powerful that if you start giving yourself eye movement, you might end up going down a whole different road.
You really need an EMDR trained professional to guide you through that experience.
It's really hard to guide yourself.
EMDR can open up not necessarily what you want to work on at the time.
It can open up old wounds or old traumas.
It's really kind of hard to... I'm trying to get a grasp on that.
On the one hand, the experience itself is virtually never bad, you said, but misguided, the procedure could take a person into a very apparently bad place.
Well, not a bad... it wouldn't be a bad ADC, I believe, but it would take you to a place Um, maybe like past childhood trauma or something that you never resolved and just kind of put away.
Yes.
It wouldn't be a bad ADC, but it could lead to a bad experience in other ways.
And it would, you know, my first, as a psychologist... In what other ways?
My first, you know, ethical responsibility is don't cause harm.
Yes, I understand.
In what ways might it turn out poorly?
Give me one to imagine so I can understand.
Let's say I have a patient or there's a person who was physically abused as a child, and this person recently lost a friend, and this person would want to ADC the friend.
Well, when you sit down and give yourself self-eye movement, what might happen is instead of having an ADC with your friend, you might end up pulling up some old trauma and get stuck in a really bad place.
You copy that, ma'am?
Well, so when you're directing the person, you know, I would be doing the same thing with myself, directing it towards, you know, what I would need instead of that.
When you're talking to a person, don't you direct them towards what they're moving for?
Yes, but if they do have other things, other major psychological events in their life, I need to know that and sometimes I have to address those first.
Even professional people who induce ADCs on themselves end up doing a much poorer job with themselves than they do with their own clients.
And because you get so emotionally caught up in the experience, it's really kind of hard to guide yourself properly.
So you need a guide is the answer?
You really do need a guide.
Alright.
Okay, I'd like to thank my good friend Rick for turning me on to your show, Art.
I'd like to thank him, too.
Thank you.
See you later.
There you go.
Gotta have a guide.
First time caller on the line.
We're on the air with Dr. Bachan.
Hello.
Yes, Art.
Hi.
Hi.
My name is Sharon.
I'm from Texas.
And I was just going to ask your guest if he's ever done this on totally blind people.
I'm visually impaired myself, and I'm just with the eye movements and stuff.
Oh, good question.
We dream, and sometimes I dream in color.
I can see in my dreams.
And I'm just wondering if he's ever done this on a visually impaired person.
And I'll let you go so you can get back to him.
Have you been blind since birth?
Yes, sir.
Uh-huh.
You have?
Okay.
All right.
I wonder how she knows she's seeing color.
I have worked with one patient, I can recall right off the bat, who was legally blind.
He did have some slight vision.
He was able to follow a large object moving in front of his face.
I don't think it's what you see that's important.
What's important is that you get your eyes shifting whether you're seeing anything or not.
The other thing is eye movement works not just with the shifting of the eyes but any kind of bilateral stimulation.
Sometimes you can do alternating clicks in the ears with earphones or bilateral tapping. You can tap a person on the left and
right hand alternately back and forth. That seems to have the same
effect as the movement of the eyes. Have you looked into the work
that Robert Monroe was doing?
I'm familiar with it but I'm not well versed in it. It seems to me that the...
I know he's into the left-right hemisphere It just seems like some of his research would bear on some of the method and the result that you're achieving in your work.
Yeah.
As a matter of fact, I'll even take it one step farther.
Some of these mediums who are very successful, or at least most popular, Van Praag, George Anderson, Jonathan Edwards, you know, this is just a guess, but they may be doing a form of EMDR.
If you ever notice Jonathan Edwards' work, there's times that he seems to look away and move his eyes.
Both Van Praag and Anderson do this kind of scribbling on a pad in front of them with a pen.
It's kind of a back-and-forth, side-to-side motion they go through.
And if you ask them, why do you do that, they're not sure.
It just seems to help.
It may be that these mediums are indeed using a form of EMDR to do what they do.
They're providing themselves with this kind of bilateral stimulation while they're having the experience.
Have you had the opportunity to speak at length with any of them?
James, for example?
No.
No?
No, I have not had that chance.
When I had the opportunity to talk to Dr. Gary Schwartz, of course he knows and worked with a lot of these folks.
And I was able to compare notes kind of through Gary.
Would there be a usefulness for you in your work to be able to interview, for example, James Sondra?
Yeah, you know, I would, you know, a lot of these mediums, you know, it's kind of a hit and miss kind of thing, but their hits outweigh their misses.
That's right.
That kind of thing.
Yes.
I would love to give these guys, you know, my form of eye movement and see if we can even increase the number of hits to misses.
That's interesting.
All right.
Matter of fact, one way of looking at this is by giving a person eye movement, you're essentially making everybody a medium.
Well, right.
I suppose so.
I realize now and I want to hedge a little bit and say what I'm talking about now is very speculative.
Well, many will suggest the whole subject is awfully speculative, but that's alright.
An awful lot of other people understand that what they're hearing is of great value.
Thank you.
Hold on, Dr. Botkin.
We'll get back to you shortly.
A quick break, and yes, we are taking phone calls for Dr. Bakken if you have questions, and I bet you do.
From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
Find out more about tonight's guest, log on to coasttocoastam.com.
Never reaching the end Letters I've written Never meaning to send
Beauty I'd always missed With these eyes before
Just what the truth is I can't say anymore
Be it sight, sound, smell or touch There's something inside that we need so much
Bye!
The sight of a touch or the scent of a sand or the strength of an oak when it moves deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
To have all these things in our memories whole.
And they use them to help us to fight Fight, fight like she's old
Take this place, up that street You know me
Oh Wanna take a ride?
Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
Want to take a ride? Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255. East of
the Rockies 1-800-825-5033. First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222. The wildcard
line is open at 1-775-727-1295. And to call Art on the toll free international line, call
your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-4242.
This is Coast to Coast AM, with Art Bell, from the Kingdom of Nine.
There's a very interesting offer going on right now, and that is, when you subscribe to After Dark, you know, the newsletter about this program that goes in depth about, well, stories and guests we have, and all the rest of it.
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Back to Dr. Botkin in a moment.
Sound of a rocket launching.
Doctor, I want to give you the opportunity to promote whatever you would like.
You haven't done any of that, and I know you have a website at least.
What would you like to tell people about?
Actually, I'd like to mention two sources that I think would be helpful to your listeners.
One is EMDR.
The standard version of EMDR is available all across the United States and in Europe and Australia.
And if you want an EMDR therapist close to you, go to EMDR.com.
And there's a place on that website where you can look up EMDR therapists in your area and get telephone numbers and so on.
And your first caller, I believe it was your first caller, the one that found the little girl under the tire?
Oh, yes.
I wasn't really convinced that the ADC resolved that for him.
Well, I don't know.
I don't know either, but it sounded like he had some tears and sometimes it's hard to tell if they're tears of sadness or tears of joy sometimes.
And you're telling me that this experience will relieve that to the point that you wouldn't relive it with the intensity he was reliving that?
Right, right.
Now sometimes ADCs that occur spontaneously are not complete.
In other words, not all issues are resolved with sometimes a brief spontaneous ADC.
And with the eye movement, though, you can continue through that process until all issues get resolved.
But it also sounds like when he brought up that image, it sounded like that image was still bothering him a lot.
Now, I would strongly suggest that he go to EMDR.com and go to an EMDR therapist that would help him reduce the intensity of that awful image that he has to live with.
Number one.
So number two is my website.
I and Dr. Craig Hogan have a website on IADC, Induced After Death Communications, and that's www.induced-adc.com.
So if you have any interest in connecting with a therapist for that procedure, go to that website and you'll get information.
The problem, I'm Also in the process of training as many other mental health professionals as I can to get this technique out to more people.
But as of right now, the only trained IADC therapists with experience are all in the Chicago area.
And I hope I can change that and get it out to the East Coast and the West Coast and so on.
I've trained some other people in other parts of the country, but they're just kind of new at it.
Hopefully, with continued support from me, they can get a little more confidence with it.
Alright, Doctor.
Let's continue on the phones here and see what we get.
Well, Caroline, you're on the air with Dr. Bakken.
Hello.
Hello.
Thank you.
I'll be brief.
We're running out of time.
Great show, Art.
I have been studied from a very early age because I haven't been gifted with all of the Um, clairvoyant, telepathic, um, psychokinesis, uh, you name it, uh, gifts.
But I've also had an extremely, um, traumatic life, and in fact, um, without my name in the records, I've been documented.
Um, I was, uh, severely sexually abused and tortured for, ah, double-digit years, which I've survived.
And, uh, I will tell you just a few things.
Um, it can be physically proven vis-a-vis, um, There are things that happen.
I mean, the trance state you mentioned, whereby they put me on a treadmill and immediately I left my body.
I mean, I find it hard to stay in my body, but I left my body.
My heart rate stopped.
Everything stopped.
It was like I was dead, but I wasn't dead.
And Art, I remember calling you ages ago and talking about how I would put my hands under the taps that were supposed to feel that there was a human hand
underneath it and then they would turn on but they would turn on
I could stand in front of electric doors. They wouldn't turn on if I wasn't in my body
Yes, and I just also wanted to say that there's some fantastic work coming out of Britain
I don't know if you know about the old the late Sir Oliver Lodge and the work that's carrying on there
using basically the concept that her radio waves and television that love the radio waves and the speed of light
are similar and that using a medium
the two Technological world can meet the spiritual world and I
I, um...
Well, that's a good take-off point right there, Doctor, that the technological world can meet the spiritual world.
Now, it seems to me that with what you're doing with ADCs, you have the opportunity to create that meeting.
Mm-hmm.
In other words, get in a lab, begin to find out what is actually occurring in the brain at the moment that people begin to experience these things, and, I don't know, take some measurements, find out if there's any electromagnetic field increase around people, whether there's... Exactly.
Right?
These are the things that you've got to do.
Exactly.
And that's all part of the basic research around this kind of stuff.
We need to get on that and get to the bottom of it.
Because when we get to that magic point where these two meet, then we get the resources of science really bearing down on... Once they figure they can nail one thing down, then they'll plunge in and we'll get research into all kinds of things that have been sort of blown off by science.
Okay, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Botkin.
Hello.
Yes, Dr. Bakken, this is Michael in Norfolk, Virginia.
Hi.
Let me just take off from what Art just said, technology meeting the paranormal world.
Yes.
My next-door neighbor, figuratively speaking, over in Virginia Beach, is a religious broadcaster who was taking in contributions in the late 80s At about 230 million a year.
And when he decided to run for president and to build a political organization, he proved that he could change the face of America as he predicted in the late 70s.
That he could control both houses of Congress and the White House, which he has done.
Now, to take Art's position, a few months ago he had on John Hutchinson and he seconded the idea that a fund should be created to help people like you do research.
Why do we not have the kind of seriousness and conviction amongst the executives of the Coast to Coast AM program and premier radio networks To change the world of science that we see in my very controversial next-door neighbor here in Virginia Beach.
Okay, well, we just covered that.
I mean, you're not going to get the kind of money and funding that you're seeking for research until somebody, you know, proves something.
When somebody actually first proves something, then science will jump in, I think, with both feet.
But we need that proof.
So far, science hasn't had it, and so science can't go ask for money to study it.
And so that's why I'm saying it's so important.
New ideas in science have always taken a lot of time before they ever become mainstream.
Even Einstein's famous works in 1905, a lot of the current Physicists at the time went to the grave not accepting Einstein's new findings, and these were great physicists.
Sometimes it just takes ideas to gel and become accepted.
It just takes time.
I don't expect things to change overnight.
People have certain ways and beliefs about the world and what's important, what works, what doesn't, and so on.
That's not easily changed.
First time caller line.
You're on the air with Dr. Botkin.
Hello.
Hello.
That's you.
This is Bonnie from Detroit.
Hi, Bonnie.
It's an honor to talk to you.
I was not a believer in... I'm an LPN.
I've worked with geriatric patients.
I've, you know, had Death experiences with my patients and never anything abnormal happened to me and just led a normal life and one time in Detroit they had a serial killer and I would take this route down Woodward Avenue and there seemed to be an energy around this motel and
This was before the bodies were found.
What, what bodies?
Well, that's what, uh, they were strangled.
These serial killers, uh, bodies that he had left at the motel.
I see.
And I would just become fixated with, this is before this was known.
And, um, but they were finding, you know, um, evidence up and down Woodward Avenue.
So maybe, You know, I was just, well, I don't know.
I just, I know what happened to me.
I know when I went by that motel, there was an energy.
You saw it?
Yes.
And I told my husband about it.
I told a couple of people about it.
And then three weeks later, my husband came in with the news and very excited and said, There's your motel.
Three bodies were found.
And after I went by, there was no energy, no premonition of something, you know, that was going to happen.
And it was like, it was almost like a phone call from beyond that, you know, they were trying to get help to be found.
And I don't care if anybody believes me.
I know it happened to me, and I'm just glad I got to share that experience.
Well, I'm glad you did, too, and that's the way it is with people.
You know, you can listen to these stories, and the person absolutely knows it's true, because they had that experience.
I've had one experience of precognition in my entire life, and I could tell that story until I'm blue in the face.
It would sound strange to people, and they'd go, oh, yeah, right.
That's not the way it is to me, because I know what happened to me, and I guess it's that way with an ADC, doctor.
Right.
You've just got to try it.
Yeah.
You're sort of going on lack of evidence if you make any judgments about this without having had the experience yourself.
But you see, you're right.
If you haven't done it, The idea is kind of scary and a little creepy.
I mean, it really is.
After all, you're going into it essentially.
Would it be fair to call it a trance state?
Um...
Altered consciousness?
What's the right phrase?
I would tend to say no.
In the procedure in inducing an ADC, I use the eye movement to kind of clear away things like the sadness and the intrusive negative images and that kind of thing.
Yes.
But then I go for that state of receptivity.
I use this high-powered EMDR to help induce that state of receptivity.
Now if that's an altered state, I don't know.
I guess I never looked at it as an altered state or trance state or anything like that.
The kind of state they're in is a state where they're not trying to do anything.
There's no intention.
They're just sitting there and going with whatever happens.
Still, in the loosest sense of the phrase, it's altered consciousness.
You're right.
In that sense, in a much broader definition of an altered or trans kind of state, yes.
It's different from our normal waking consciousness where we're thinking about things, we're attending to things in our environment and so on.
Doctor, a straight answer here.
Have there been any guided ADCs that went wrong?
Not out of the few thousand we've done.
It's 100%.
They've all gone right.
They've all gone right?
I have one kind of nice story I love telling this one because it really illustrates this.
I was inducing one guy and we were going to ADC his brother and he's kind of a high anxious guy and so on but anyway when I did the induction and he closed his eyes he suddenly opened his eyes and said there's a giant claw around my neck it's trying to strangle me.
Really?
And I thought You know, at that point, I had done many hundreds of ADCs, and I thought, well, that couldn't be right.
And so I encouraged him to go back and see what it was, feeling fairly confident it wasn't a giant claw trying to kill him.
So anyway, he trusted me, and we went back, or he went back.
And then he had a real nice ADC.
When he opened his eyes, he said, you know, that wasn't a giant claw.
That was my brother giving me a hug.
What he did is he misinterpreted the experience, and there are times, it's not very common, where people initially will misinterpret, and so you just take them back to make sure they, you know... Once the ADC begins, all the fear and trepidation is gone, and the experience is underway.
It just wipes all of that away.
Yeah.
The deceased are always experienced as profoundly peaceful and happy, and in the ADC experience, the survivor, my patient, they most often say that they somehow felt that peacefulness of the deceased person, like it was somehow transmitted to them.
Yes.
And all the initial fears about going into this just wash away.
Remarkable.
Well, Doctor, our time is ending.
It has been a total pleasure having you here.
Well, thanks, Art.
I've really enjoyed it.
Can I just say thanks to a couple people?
Of course.
Thanks to Jimmy.
Jimmy was our first caller.
Yes.
Oh, yes.
And he was the one that put the list together and some of the others weren't available.
But I also want to thank Bobby.
Bobby, you know who you are.
You helped set this thing up.
But most importantly, I want to thank the many hundreds of combat vets I've worked with over the years, because they shared in this discovery with me, and it's because of their courage to confront their pain that I was able to get to this point.
So my hat's off to all the guys I've worked with over the years, and I love each and every one of you.
Well, it sure made for one heck of a radio show.
Thank you, Doctor.
Thank you, Art.
And good night.
See you all on Halloween.
Don't forget those stories.
Crystal has just the right words to take us out of here.
From the high desert, goodnight.
Goodnight in the desert, shooting stars across the sky.
This magical journey will take us on a ride.
We're filled with a longing Searching for the truth Will we make it till tomorrow?
Will the sun shine on you?
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