Art Bell

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Sept. 27, 2003 - Art Bell

02:50:05

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - UFOs and Alien Abductions - David Jacobs

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01:04:06

budd hopkins

15:28

david m jacobs

51:36

jose escamilla

11:17

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I view you all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, good afternoon, good morning, whatever the case may be, wherever you may be in the world, all those time zones out there.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		This, of course, is Coast Coast AM weekend version.
		And it's going to be a very, very interesting program tonight.
		In a moment, Jose is Camellia, and I am right now at the beginning of the program.
		I want to tell you why.
		You need to go to the Coast to Coast AM website right now.
		And in the upper right-hand corner, I think it's the upper right-hand corner.
		Anyway, the upper right-hand corner, it'll have Jose's name.
		And you'll see a site listed, called UFOTheater.com.
		And the reason I'm bringing Jose on is because, well, gee, for years, a few years, Jose did some remarkable, incredible photography of something that he called rods.
		Rods, which, I don't know, could certainly be, as I thought them to be, some sort of living matter that was sharing our space with us, and that they were able to be photographed in the manner that Jose photographed them.
		Well, during the week, I ran into this UFO theater.
		Some listener out there sent it to me and said, I guess this about wraps up the case for rods, huh?
		And so I went to the website and took a look, and that website is listed up there, and I heartily encourage you to go up and take a look just before we begin this conversation.
		There's a series of photographs.
		And by the way, right on the site, they say we are not skeptics, nor do we wish to promote anything except the truth.
		We know unidentified flying objects exist.
		However, we believe that rods have been identified.
		And they then proceed to prove their case in a series of photographs that when I talked to Jose the other day, and of course he was being at the center of all this, he was very much familiar with the fact the site existed, had seen it, and his words were, quote, yes, it's pretty damning, is what he said.
		And Jose is a really good guy.
		I thought I'd bring him on, and so we will do that shortly.
		In the next hour, we're going to have David Jacobs here, who I really, really, really like.
		David has a new book out.
		And David is actually one of the only ufologists that I'm aware of that in his book, The Threat, and that's basically, believe it or not, why I wanted to have him back on tonight.
		I have always believed and continue to believe now that they are here, as it were.
		I think they are.
		And David Jacobs thinks they may not be friendly.
		He wrote a book called The Threat.
		And of all the ufologists that I talked to, I'm telling you right now, David is the only one who ever had the temerity to write such a thing, that they might not be our friends.
		And that has always intrigued me.
		And so I wanted to have him back on tonight.
		He's got a new book called UFO Abductions, Challenging the Borders of Knowledge.
		And then just about an hour before airtime, I got a call from Bud Hopkins.
		Yes, Bud Hopkins.
		Who said, hey, Art, what's the chance of getting on with David at the beginning of that spot when you do David Jacobs, rather?
		And I said, well, sure, Bud, let me ask David.
		And I did, and he said, fine.
		So David Jacobs, along with Bud Hopkins in the next hour.
		Should be very interesting.
		World news, what's going on?
		Well, here's some scuttlebud.
		And at this hour, that's all it is, is scuttlebud.
		It could be wrong.
		I had a friend on ham radio who said, hey, Art, I just saw on Fox News that the entire country of Italy just lost power.
		And I talked briefly with a Whitley Striver who said, you know, Art, I've heard a lot of scuttlebutt, word he used, that there could be some sort of terrorist action with regard to power, just scuttlebutt.
		In fact, the whole story of Italy losing power could at this hour be scuttlebutt.
		I don't know, but thought I would mention that to you.
		Could be incorrect.
		President Bush and Russian President Vladimir Putin on Saturday urged Iran and North Korea to abandon their suspected nuclear weapons programs, but disagreed with how to deal with both countries.
		Putin also declined to pledge any post-war help for Iraq.
		Guerrillas struck a glancing but bold blow at the heart of the U.S. occupation on Saturday, and Iraq firing three rockets or grenades at a Baghdad hotel filled with American soldiers and civilians.
		And by the way, I thought this was kind of neat.
		I got the following email from Baghdad, Baghdad, Iraq.
		Dear Mr. Bell, I'm sorry that I was a little slow on the uptake with this news, but the news out there is a little slow at times in Iraq.
		I just wanted to say welcome back and that we are out here rooting for you and trying to figure out how to tune you in over here.
		With all this commo stuff out here, we might just find a way to tune you in.
		SPC Sean Page in Baghdad.
		So there you are.
		The California election debacle goes on.
		Recall, whatever.
		Concerned about spoiler candidates on the left and right, Governor Gray Davis and Arnold Schwarzenegger, have moved quickly in the last few days to portray the race as a head-to-head Contest.
		And this item caught my attention.
		The office phone number of a federal judge who ruled last week that a national do-not-call registry is unconstitutional among the thousands already on the list.
	So the judge who ruled it was unconstitutional put himself on the do-not-call list.
	Nevertheless, thought it was unconstitutional.
	Let's see.
	His number was added in July to the registry.
	Designed to block telemarketer.
	How do you handle those, by the way?
	Do you hang up on them?
	Do you listen to their spiel and say no thank you?
	You know, in the beginning, you tend to be polite because people, you know, generally are, most generally, are polite on the telephone, but not always.
	So I wonder how you handle those kinds of calls.
	In a moment, Jose, Eskimilia, I hope you're getting a chance to look at this website.
	There's a link right up there, so you take a good look, because we're about to talk about it.
	Ask and ye shall receive, I guess.
	Thank you very much for the fast last link.
	Rome, Italy, indeed.
	Power went out across Italy before dawn, police and news reports said, plunging the nation into darkness.
	Authorities did not immediately know the cause.
	Reports of power outages began to come in around 4 a.m. local time in Rome, where the city was celebrating an all-night party with museums and restaurants open around the clock.
	Wow.
	Later, the National Electricity Company, ACEA, said power was out across the nation.
	As far as we know, quoting an official, it's out all across Italy, and we don't know the cause yet.
	So that's the CNN story of the moment.
	And again, I want to thank somebody on FastBlast for sending that link to me, that CNN link.
	That was Phil in Nashville, Tennessee.
	Thank you, Phil.
	So what was sort of scuttlebutt is now officially confirmed.
	Whether it is terrorist-related, obviously, they'd have no idea.
	Now, on to the subject of rods.
	Once again, I really thought that Jose Escamilia had something there, and I still think he may.
	But I also tend to think that the website, ufotheater.com, kind of blows it out of the water.
	And again, Jose's quote was, well, yes, it's pretty damning.
	Here is Jose Escamilia.
	Hey, buddy.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Art, how are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's good to have you on.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Hey, it's good to be back, man.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		It's good to have you back on the air, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		I know you worked for years and years on the whole Rods concept.
		And so you were certainly familiar, obviously, when I talked to you the other day, yesterday, with this website.
		And as you go through the photographs that are here, Jose, you know, I agree with your comment.
		I think it is kind of damning as you go through the photographs.
		There is no question about the fact that what they have here are rods.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Well, they're insects emulating rods.
		Well, I don't know.
		Let me tell you something.
		I said it's pretty damning evidence there.
		But you have to look at what they're doing here.
		They're setting up a camera at night.
		That means they have to set up a low shutter setting in order to capture anything that moves at night under extreme low light.
		Now, what is the biggest thing that I've always maintained?
		I've been on your show many, many times, many years.
		I've always said, look, I set up a shutter setting called the Skyfishing Protocol that eliminates insects emulating and birds emulating rods.
		If you shoot a low shutter setting, whether you shoot at night or during the day, you will get insects that will resemble rods.
		And I've maintained this for many, many years.
		That's why I created the Skyfishing Protocol.
		And yeah, it looks damning.
		I mean, you know, insects do look like rods.
		But when you shoot at the high shutter settings that I've, you know, I set up the Skyfishing Protocol for one reason and one reason only.
		That's to eliminate the kind of websites that you're seeing right now.
		These guys are barely touching ground that I covered back in 1994, 1995.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the part of it that I think rocked my world a little bit, Jose, were the pictures where they actually compared the photographs on Roswellrods.com to what they've got here.
		And some of them are simply, they're not close.
		They are rods.
		They're rods as you depict them.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		They're very similar as we depict them, but we also have high shutter setting rod footage that you look, these things are at high shutter settings, they're rods.
		And when you get an insect, that's the high shutter setting protocol that I've set, the sky fishing protocol.
		And I always tell people, shoot at broad daylight, man.
		You know, nighttime, you're going to have to give up the high shutter settings that cameras are instilled with nowadays.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're making the case, though.
		And by the way, this Brian Descent, I made my best attempt to get hold of him, sent several emails, tried to find a number for him in San Salvo, Texas, couldn't find one.
		The only one on the web was disconnected, so I couldn't get hold of the photographer who took these.
		But he maintains that the curvature of the lens, all lenses that would do this kind of work, Jose, produce the effect.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, you know, Art, I beg to differ on that.
		And, you know, I said it's damning, it's very damning evidence there.
		But, you know, they're doing nighttime stuff, and they're doing low-shutter setting stuff, which I've covered back in 94.
		I'll reiterate.
		When you shoot at high-shutter settings in broad daylight, a rod is a rod, an insect is an insect.
		You can tell an insect.
		It will not show the rod shape that you see at nighttime low-shutter settings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, right now, a lot of listeners, a lot of my listeners are going through these photographs and trying to probably make up their own minds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, when they have gone through them, what do you think they're going to conclude after seeing this?
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Well, what they're going to look at right now is low shutter setting, infect shot under a light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		And, man, you could run your hand in front of the camera and it'll look like a freaking rock because it's not going to capture the true essence of what's happening in front of the lens.
		Now, one thing that this guy, Brian, whatever his name is, you know, he claims, well, we're not debunkers and this, that, and the other.
		Well, that's fine.
		But, you know, he never contacted me to sit down and look at the evidence that we have.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		We have other stuff that's fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think, to be fair, you know what I did?
		I went back to the mother website and I looked.
		And they're not debunkers.
		I mean, they're really more ufologists, frankly, than they are debunkers.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		That's fine.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		If they want to be true ufologists, then they should really come down and sit with me and go through every frame of video that I have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you would invite him to do exactly what I'm saying.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		I've always invited everyone's art.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		I am not in here to try to pull the wool over people's eyes, much less make a total ass of myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, but there is one possibility you've got to acknowledge, Jose, and that is that while you may be dead on and they may be everything you say they are, there's also the possibility that Besant and company might be correct.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		No, they are correct in low shutter shooting.
		I've already covered that ground.
		I mentioned it many, many, many times on your show, on other television shows and radio shows.
		Look, if you shoot at low shutter setting, you're going to get food.
		You're going to think you see something, but it's not the real deal.
		That's why I developed the Scott Fishing Protocol.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then, how about this, Christian?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think that even at the low shutter speeds that we've got here, why would you imagine that what is an insect comes out looking so incredibly like a rod?
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Man, I went through that in 1994.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, go through it now.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		I went through it and then.
		I said, okay, you know, first time I videotaped rods, back in March 19th of 1994, you can hear me on the camera.
		I was looking at these things in the viewfinder.
unidentified		Right.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		And I said, oh, that's a bug.
		That's a bird.
		That's a bug.
		That's a bird.
		I was shooting at 1 2,000 shutter setting, which was the highest shutter setting available on cameras at that time.
		And it wasn't until I went back and started looking at the footage frame by frame that I saw insects passing by, and you could see the legs, the antennae, and the wings flapping.
		You could see the birds, and then these things that were blurring.
		They were elongated things flying.
		Now it was a high shutter setting.
		Now, maybe, perhaps, we were filming things that are going so fast that even at the high shutter setting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The same artifact became present.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		It became present, but it wasn't an insect.
		It wasn't a bird.
		It was something else.
		So, okay, maybe we did overstep something.
		But we've done tests.
		Believe me, Art.
		I've got stuff, and I hurriedly put up a page right now.
		You can go on the website, and it says the insect theories.
		I've got footage up there that's pretty damning itself.
		I mean, it explains all the things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In what sense?
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		In the sense that I've got a rod shot in real-time video.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		That means it was shot by a cameraman in Sweden at an Army airbase, and he was shooting with a high-end beta camera, whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		And there was a tank shooting shells.
		This tank shoots off around.
		The guy sits down.
		This rod comes into frame from a far-off distance.
		It's not a bug close to the lens.
		It's not a camera artifact, not a lens artifact.
		And there are a few things that you have to address on CCD artifacts, too.
		But we'll go into that later.
		This thing flies by as slow as a bird does.
		It's not an insect.
		It's not a bird.
		It's a rod.
		And, I mean, we have stuff, you know, we have rods coming in and out of the ocean.
		We've got stuff, NASA footage of rods entering Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there's been nobody that's been more of a booster of yours than me.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A big booster.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		And you know what?
		You know, this is not fair for you, Art, because you know what?
		You haven't had my latest DVD.
		I need to send you this footage so you can see exactly what we've been talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, but of course, as you well know, I've seen a gazillion rods and photographs and video footage that you've shot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And when I got down to this photograph that he presents called They Are All Rods Now, I looked at it and I said, damn.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		I go, and when I talked to you last night, I go, Art, that's damning evidence.
		But there's a thin line here.
		These guys are shooting at low shutter setting intentionally.
		They are not going out and doing the field tests we've done for years, believe me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the worrying thing is that it produces the same kind of artifact.
		That's what caught me.
		It produces the same kind of artifact.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		And I said this, and I've said it over and over again.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		look, if you shoot at low shutter setting, you're going to get insects and birds that emulate rods.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how does an insect turn into How does an insect turn into, I can't imagine how it morphs into a classic rod.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, you have very little information coming into the CCD at night, number one.
		You're illuminating things that are flying, zipping around, such as insects.
		And there's very little information graphically, basically, coming into the CCD.
		So the CCD, you have to set it at the very lowest shutter setting possible.
		And what that does is it does not give you the true window of the imagery that you're looking at.
		It's like a blurred image, because you'll never get a clean, clear image as if you were shooting in broad daylight using a high shutter setting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That part I've got.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Believe me, and I've done camera tests.
		I've got a camera setting set up on my website right now.
		I set up a page called proof.html.
		It's right there.
		You can go in there.
		It says the rod insect theories.
		I didn't have time to get all this together because I'm busy putting together my new network and other things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, go ahead and tell us about that, by the way.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Okay, listen.
		One of the things that's been my gripe has been, okay, I've been on about three TV specials.
		Fox TV has been airing a TV special overseas on rods.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		And they always leave out the guts.
		I mean, they do a sensational job of presenting the stuff.
		And I said, you know, it's time to set up my own network or our own network where we can have a venue where we can present our evidences the way they should deserve to be presented.
		So I've created a thing called the Borderlands Network.
		I've spent all my money putting together a public company.
		Next year we're going to go public.
		And it's going to be the very first all-paranormal network.
		From now on, when you tune into the Borderlands Network on any satellite, disk network, or DirecTV, you're going to see everything that's paranormal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's pretty cool.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		It's got to happen.
		I mean, this is the next step because the argument that we're having right now with these people would not happen if I would have been allowed to present my goods in the right perspective.
		Well, I'm not as sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You see, I'm not as sure about that, Jose.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I look at the photograph and I try to ask myself, all right, look, how, and I did before I even called you on the phone, I said, how, I understand that there can be differences at lower shutter speeds, but what I don't understand how, is how the artifact can become an exact rod, an exact rod, and maybe even at higher shutter speeds.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		At higher shutter speed, you're not going to get that effect.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		But when you do get a rod, you can get it.
unidentified		But you did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A minute ago, you said maybe on a certain, with a fast enough moving object, even with a faster lens speed, you would get that effect.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, but it's got to be a very tremendous, you know, an object that's traveling at tremendous speed that would blur at that shutter setting.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		We've done it on film, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold on, Jose.
		I don't know.
		I hope you all will go up there and take a look and decide for yourself.
		Rods?
unidentified		Real or not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Out on the street, I was talking to a man.
		He said, So my brother's not a man that I don't understand.
		You shouldn't worry, I said that ain't no crime Cause if you get wrong I don't know why Abumba
		Abumba Abumba You're in my soul, I'm in my soul Abumba
		hear my heartbeat in this garden, you know that behind desire and the way he call Arkbell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nigh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This song is English, French, and African.
		It's pretty unusual stuff and obviously a favorite of the producers of a program called Dead Like Me, which is a favorite program of mine.
		And so that's how I picked up on it.
		Pretty wild stuff, huh?
		If you ever get a chance during the summer reruns, they just had their last show.
		Check out Dead Like Me with George.
		It's a pretty neat show.
		In the meantime, we're talking about Rods with Jose Escamelia.
		And I urge you to get up to the website and take a look at what UFOTheater.com has presented and, you know, decide for yourself, bearing in mind what Jose has said about the shutter speed and all of that.
		I don't know.
		They sure do look like Rod.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, there is so much odd stuff going on in our world that I feel a tremendous responsibility to report to you.
		And I think that's how the whole show began, the whole program began.
		The things that the regular networks will not report to you.
		They just won't talk about it.
		And if they do, as Jose has suggested, they'll leave the meat out or whatever.
		It's rare enough they get to report on them at all.
		And then when they do, why they leave out perhaps the most important parts.
		And so that's what this is all about.
		We explore areas of the paranormal.
		However, when something comes along that legitimately challenges something we have presented and perhaps believed to be true, certainly it seemed that way with regard to rods.
		It looked like another species of life coexisting with us.
		That's not a trivial matter.
		So I had Jose on a lot of times to talk about it and to coexist with some other form of life and to barely know about it except for the turn of a lens or something.
		But if then there's something wrong with it, there's a responsibility on our part, I feel, to discuss that as well.
		That's why Jose is here.
		Jose, welcome back again.
		I just want to hit it one more time, and maybe you can explain it to me.
		Let me get it out.
		And that is that while I understand their different shutter speeds, what I cannot grasp is the fact that these are rods.
		In other words, as unlikely a shape as rods are likely to have.
		They are very individualistic and pretty wild.
		But God, Jose, these are not blurred insects.
		These are, well, I guess they are insects, actually.
		But I mean, they are also rods right down to the most minute detail.
		That's pretty hard to get past.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you know, I've got footage of from NASA shuttle footage of rods in space.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Unless there's insects up there, unless NASA's cameras are capturing, then we've got a different problem here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But there are little things that fly around in space.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, little colours.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		If they're going to emulate a rod shape, I mean, I don't think NASA would spend hundreds of millions of our dollars to come up with bogus cameras.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, how do we settle this?
		What they've done here is pretty convincing.
		What you've done here is convincing.
		How do we settle it?
		Do we get, we finally somehow find this mysterious Brian Besant and get him together with you and have you both do photography at different speeds and different times of day?
		Or how do we settle it?
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		That's fine with me.
		Let's do it.
		But, you know, let's not just go over there and do what I already did back in 94.
		And you know what, Art?
		I kind of maybe should have put in, should have, would have could.
		I should have put in, okay, these are the insect tests and everything else.
		Okay, here's an insect.
		And I did that, actually.
		I did that since 1994.
		I showed people, if you do this, this is what an insect looks like.
		As a matter of fact, I got a clip on my website under proof.html, you know, insect theories.
		You'll see exactly what I'm talking about.
		We got rods coming in and out of the oceans.
		We've got rods coming in and out of space.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you ever show any footage when you were doing the early insect things that was as clearly a rod as what they're showing here?
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		At that time, yes.
		An insect became a rod.
		A bird became a rod, okay, at the low shutter settings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He writes on his website, there is a reason that nobody has ever found a dead rod or a captured one.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		And what's that reason that he says?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it goes unsaid here.
		It's obviously the aforementioned photographic evidence that he's put up here.
		Okay, well, it don't exist, that's why.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, but that's one opinion.
		And that's one-sided opinion because he has not come forward.
		He has not sat down here and looked at all the evidence that we have here.
		And we have more evidence.
		There's a lot of stuff that we didn't release to the public, you know?
		And there's a reason behind that is because we have, well, number one, we have a lot of evidence here that we are still mulling over.
		Like I said, we've got stuff from NASA.
		That's pretty incredible stuff.
		We've got rods flying in in V formations into Earth.
		Okay, now, years ago, if I would have said, well, you know, rods are from outer space and this, that, and the other.
		I'd be a total whack.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you never said that.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		All right, never said that.
		But we're finding more and more evidence.
		I mean, I've been talking to Martin Stubbs.
		You know, the guy that did the NASA testing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, now, wait a minute, Ali.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're leaning towards suggesting that is where you think they might be from?
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		We don't know, but I guarantee you that we've got footage of these things, the same thing that you're seeing in low-shutter setting and high-shutter setting you're seeing in outer space captured by NASA cameras.
		Okay?
		They got the little winglets.
		They got the sinusoidal wave motion of the membrane.
		They're coming into Earth.
		And we've got that kind of footage.
		And it's like, what are we dealing with here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you are willing to meet with this, Mr. Pesant, and under the right circumstances, do some joint photography and investigation.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		By all means.
		I did it with Fox TV.
		We set up five cameras at different shutter settings, and we, you know, rods flew through, insects flew through, birds flew through.
		We got rods.
		We got insects.
		We got birds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, no problem.
		It's been a long time since I have spoken to you, so let me ask you this.
		Is there any recent breaking news about rods and what you believe them to be that would help us?
		I mean, we've always asked, well, what are they?
		What do they want?
		What are they doing here?
		A million questions.
		Why no one's ever found one.
		Is there anything new in the rod world as you see it?
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Well, we do believe that they do have a cycle in the water.
		They do have a life cycle in the water.
		We've got evidence of them entering the ocean and coming out of the oceans.
		We also have footage taken by Ionisky Productions, a guy named Barry Addison.
		He used to work with the Muppet, Henson Muppet Show.
		He's been filming aviation videos, not even related to rods.
		He captures some incredible rods flying past airplanes on the other side of these planes.
		I had some bearcat footage that he was going to send me, and I was going to put it on the website tonight, but I haven't received it yet.
		But the thing is, the bottom line is, look, ground already covered, and insects can emulate rods.
		And like I told you, there's damning evidence.
		But there's more to it than this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Emulate.
		Boy, these are right on the money.
		I mean, it's not like they're close.
		These are right on the money.
		The little devil's in the middle of the middle.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		And we have them in a high shutter setting doing the same thing.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		So what do we have here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, do you know what?
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		We have footage of rods in high shutter settings with insects and dragonflies and birds.
		So what are we dealing with here?
		So, you know, if it's a camera CCD artifact, then, you know, Sony and a lot of other camera people have to recall their cameras because there's a defect.
		They're not giving us true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure that's a good thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's something that bothers the average person taking, you know, pictures of the family picnic.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		That's why I told people don't shoot at normal or auto-setting because you're going to get the wrong thing.
		Shoot at the highest shutter setting.
		Get your manual out.
		I mean, I've drilled it over and over again.
		And believe me, rods become rods.
		Insects become insects.
		Birds become birds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		I welcome these guys.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Let's do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Jose.
		Listen, I want to thank you for coming on tonight.
		I really, really appreciated it.
		I wanted to get your words on it.
		We'll follow up from here, okay?
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Let's do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, my friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
jose escamilla ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Arch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's Jose Escamelia.
		And he has maintained for years that there's something called rods.
		And these rods are not photographic anomalies.
		They're not bugs.
		They are a real life form coexisting with us here on Earth.
		If you go to the website, coastcoastam.com, you'll see the link up there for this website.
		And I would urge you to take a look and decide for yourself.
		That's the easiest thing, I think, to do is to decide for yourself.
		They've got a step-by-step photographic layout here, which just takes you right through it and right down to where things become rods.
		Yes, granted, at the shutter speeds they were using, but as I maintained to Jose, gosh, I look at these and you look at the delicate membranes and the things that are so-called rods, and baby, these are the same things.
		These are rods.
		These are rods.
		All right, since we've got coming up at the top of the hour Bud Hopkins And David Jacobs.
		David Jacobs was due to be the guest for the evening, but Bud called at the last moment.
		He's got a new book, by the way, called Sight Unseen.
		And as you know, he's been deeply involved for probably most of my adult lifetime, as has David Jacobs in the abduction research phenomena area that he's very welcome on.
		Now, in light of that at the top of the hour, I received earlier in the week something from Bill Hamilton with regard to his conclusions about the grays.
		And I think this is really interesting stuff.
		He says, I have been doing some analysis of reports of the EBEs known as Grays.
		There seems to be more than one type, but observations are insufficient to do a full taxonomy.
		Here are some of the speculative inferences based on these general observations and reports.
		This is really interesting stuff.
		I think that abductions have occurred, and I think they are real, and I think we are being visited.
		And what you're about to hear about these creatures, I think is worth your digesting and listening very careful to.
		How about that?
		With regard to graves, the head is large by human standards.
		The inference here, more brain capacity.
		In other words, they might be smarter than we are.
		The eyes are generally slanted, large, and black.
		You've seen the pictures, right?
		Slanted, large, and black.
		Inference, eyes probably gather more light than humans.
		Infers dimmer sun and thinner atmosphere.
		That's interesting.
		Infers dimmer sun, that they live in a system with a dimmer sun and thinner atmosphere.
		The nose is usually vague.
		Two small nares are visible.
		Inference here, a thinner atmosphere.
		That would make sense as well, wouldn't it?
		If you begin to consider, we're trying to consider who they are and where they might be from and every bit of information we can infer from their appearance.
		Mouth is indicated by a small slit without lips.
		The mouth appears to be non-functional.
		Inference.
		Thin atmosphere may not support sounds very well.
		Natural selection may have given gray EBE small mouth and ears.
		No teeth in the mouth cavity.
		Inference here.
		Does not mastigate food for source of nutrients.
		The body and the head are completely hairless.
		Inference here.
		Hairless bodies may indicate warmth even though the air is thin.
		Could be warm because planet is close to the sun or greys do not live above ground.
		Torso is described as small and thin, often covered in a metallic garment.
		Inference here.
		Indicates a weak gravity field consistent with a thin atmosphere and the short stature.
		Did not develop strong muscles to counteract gravity.
		Interesting, huh?
		Let's see.
		Arms are long and thin and reach to the knees.
		Inference here.
		Arms made for reaching, not lifting.
		We're talking about the difference between ourselves here and the grays.
		Reports of the fingers vary from three to four long, webbed, and possibly with a claw or fingernail.
		The legs are short and thin.
	Most reports of the feet say that they are covered.
	Inference here may be able to run or move rapidly in a weak gravity field.
	But lung capacity could be small and thin air may be more conductive, conducive to slower movements.
	The brain is larger than ours and has more than two lobes, possibly three.
	The third lobe is thought to be used for telepathic communication.
	Skin description ranges from light tan to pasty gray color.
	Texture is described as scaly or reptilian in nature.
	No muscles or skeletal structure is visible.
	No external reproductive genital possible reproduction by cloning method.
	So they don't have genitals as we understand them, and the answer may be that the only way they reproduce is that field that we're rapidly approaching now called cloning.
	The inference, obviously, may be genetically engineered entities designed to operate in space, designed to operate in space.
	Isn't that interesting?
	One of the main problems that NASA and the human race face in terms of trying to make long space trips, even to Mars, is the fact that human beings are not designed to live in space.
	Our muscles begin to atrophy.
	Our body begins to sort of fall apart, frankly, being in space.
	That's what occurs.
	And they have various methods of exercise, even for our astronauts who are in low Earth orbit, lest their muscles begin to atrophy and you begin to have heart problems and all the rest of it when you try to return to an atmosphere, when you try to return, well, to gravity.
	No discernible digestive tract found, but a two-piece organ that seems to be a combined heart and lung organ.
	Digestive functioning is believed to be through the skin in some sort of form of osmosis.
	The inference, again, a thin atmosphere, no lung capacity, needs pressure to absorb nutrients.
	Bill Hamilton wrote that 319-2002.
	Those inferences you may draw based on the collective renderings of people who have seen these gray creatures, people who have been abducted or had harm or good from their point of view, I suppose, done to them by these gray creatures, but there are some inferences about what they are, what they might be.
	Now, the years of doing this program have led me to certain conclusions.
	I have talked with people who have been the victims of abduction, Travis Walton, many other, Betty Hill.
	I've had, you know, it's interesting.
	I've had long conversations with the now I might note rather ill being treated for cancer, Betty Hill, Benny and Barney Hill, and many others who have been abducted, abduction researchers, people who have been doing this sort of thing all their lives, or and or looking into it, or into the subject of abductions.
	And it's not possible to come out of all of this without some belief that something, some group, somebody, is here with us.
	And they're here for some indiscernible reason.
	Now, one thing Bill Hamilton is not able to come up with as a reporter and inference is why they're here.
	We have no idea.
	The best guesses seem to have something to do with our genetics, or perhaps their genetics, or maybe both.
	Right?
	It may well be they need some sort of genetic help from us.
	I don't know.
	So I have no reason to have a belief system regarding why they are here.
	It's one of the very important questions, but I think why they are here is almost a bar that we have now passed.
	They are here.
	All of these reports, many of them withheld military radar sightings, sightings by credible people that I've been able to interview over the years, firemen, policemen, trained observers of all kinds, even the pilots.
	When you get an opportunity to really get one to open up and talk to you, try it yourself sometime.
	I'm sure some of you know pilots.
	Get them in a quiet mood if you happen to have a friend who's a commercial pilot, something like that.
	Because you would think, well, most commercial pilots over all the years and hundreds of, if not millions of miles that they've traveled, would have seen these things if they're really out there, right?
	The answer is, a lot of them have.
	Even most of them.
	But they don't like to talk about it.
	So if you get the opportunity to get a pilot that you know on some sort of friendly basis, sit him down, get him in a good mood, perhaps ply him with whatever it takes, and get him to tell you stories.
	Because when you do, you're going to find out these pilots have seen things.
	And so I think that bar is passed, folks.
	I think they are out there and they are interacting with us, sometimes in not very pleasant ways.
	And I'm not one of those warm, fuzzy people who would tell you that I think that they're here for our good or to pull our fat out of the fire.
	And as far as they're concerned, we may be nothing more than ants worthy of a good hard stomp.
	I have no idea.
	But one, it seems to me, is as likely as the other.
	You're going to hear a lot about it tonight because coming up in a moment, David Jacobs and a surprise visit by Bud Hopkins from the high desert.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		The End Be it silent, sand, smell, or touch, the something inside that we need so much.
		The sight of a touch or the scent of a sand, or the strength of an oak when it moves deep in the ground.
		The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
		Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing To have all these things in our memories home And they use them to help us to fight Night!
		Yeah!
		Fight!
		Fight my sea salt!
		Take this place!
		On this trip!
		Just for me!
		Wanna take a ride?
		Well, call our bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		First time callers may reach art at 1-775-727-1222.
		The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here on Rod, All right, in the nighttime, and I'm Art Bell.
		Good evening.
		We've got two of the world's premier investigators into the world of abductions and just exactly who these aliens are.
		I give you a list of sort of inferences drawn by Bill Hamilton with regard to their description about what it might mean about them.
		A planet perhaps with a sun that doesn't give them a lot of sun, a planet without a whole lot of atmosphere, perhaps.
		Lots of inferences that can be drawn from the descriptions of the grays, which clearly I think we've just about passed the bar with regard to whether they are here or not.
		They are here.
		Question is why and what do they want?
		Maybe some of the answers tonight.
		You never know.
		Dr. David Jacobs, Ph.D., is an associate professor of history at Temple University specializing in 20th century American history and culture.
		He began researching the controversy over unidentified flying objects in America in the mid-1960s and has amassed over 35 years of primary research data and analytical hypothesis on the subject.
		Dr. Jacobs has written and delivered many articles, papers, and addresses on the subject of UFO abduction and has been a consultant to the major UFO organizations.
		In recent years, he's concentrated on ascertaining the proper methodological techniques for the hypnosis and therapy of abductees.
		So he's right and square in the middle of all of this.
		And a surprise tonight, calling us up just prior to airtime, the one and only Bud Hopkins, who became first interested, I believe, in the UFO phenomena, when he and two others had a daylight UFO sighting near Truro at Massachusetts, I guess it is, in 1964.
		And 1975, he carried out his first major investigation, which involved a UFO landing, an occupant incident in North Hudson Park, New Jersey.
		Shortly thereafter, he began to concentrate on the investigation of the UFO abduction phenomena, which led to the eventual publication of his findings.
		His most recent book, just out, in fact, is a book called Sight Unseen.
		in a moment dr david jacobs and of course but happens Thank you.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe the only guy I've ever met who's got the cojonies to say, hey, maybe these are not friendly beings at all.
		Here is Dr. David Jacobs.
		Dr. Jacobs, welcome back.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you, Art, and welcome back to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And have somebody of your stature, and then I push up the other button here, and Bud Hopkins, I think.
unidentified		Bud, hey.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
		How are you, Art?
		And Dave.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So here we are with two of the world's best people looking into abductions.
		So I've got, gee, a million questions.
		Congratulations on your new book coming out called Sight Unseen, Bud.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell me something about it real quick.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, this is a book where I look into issues of UFO invisibility, of the fact that when abductions take place, the craft, the abductees, and the aliens are all somehow unseeable.
		This is something that we've known for a long, long time, but it's the first time it's been gone into systematically.
		And the other part of the book has to do with the scene part, which is the fact that there seem to be transgenic beings, quote-unquote hybrid beings, part human, part alien, who seem to be operating in a daily way on our planet, driving cars, shopping, living, and so forth.
		But the rest of the book has to do with science that is going on on our Earth, which makes these things seem plausible rather than sort of crazy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're suggesting these beings are living among us now?
		Well, that was one of the first things on Dr. Jacobs' list.
		Our question, are the hybrids living among us now?
		What brings you to these conclusions?
		I presume you agree, Dr. Jacobs.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that Bud has more information about it than I do.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		I know that they can certainly be here for periods of time, but Bud has investigated them over extended periods of time, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But nevertheless, you would seem to be leaning toward thinking they are among us.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that they are, especially in related to the abduction phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I suppose to conduct a successful abduction, one has to know something about the target, right?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, and of course, people are abducted throughout the course of their lives from infancy on, as Bud actually first discovered many years ago.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		And so, therefore, when hybrids deal with them, they deal with them for long periods of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A hybrid, let's define a hybrid.
		When you two say hybrids, what do you mean?
		Either one of you.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Bud, why don't you take that?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, in one case, for instance, that I go into, we have a man who looks very human.
		In this particular case, when you mean hybrid or transgenic being as if there's been some genes moved from one species to another, what you're really dealing with is a being that may pass totally as a human.
		In one of the cases I mentioned, a man seemed to be a man in his 50s, able to drive a car, speak normally, and so forth, and yet actually led this young woman to an abduction, drove her, as it were, into a field in New Jersey where the UFO met.
		And this hybrid being was able to read her mind, control her, very much like the gray aliens do, control her actions, and actually then bring her right to the aliens for an abduction.
		And yet he looked as if he were a man in his 50s who even wore glasses and drove a car.
		So we have this very, very strange mix of very human features.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess I'm asking, are these hybrids genetic mixtures of aliens and humans?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that what's been going on in some cases?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I don't think there's any doubt that that's the way to define it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any way at all, either one of you, to recognize these hybrids?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are there any differences from the normal human at all that would make you turn around and look again?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think, for my part, that when you're talking about hybridization, you're talking actually about a spectrum of beings.
		Some look quite human, some look quite alien, most look in the middle.
		The ones I think that can deal with this on Earth for extended periods of time are what I call late-stage hybrids.
		And that is to say, they really look human, and you would not be able to tell the difference unless you were looking for specific anatomical differences In a way that you wouldn't just do casually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were either one of you able to hear my gray alien description and analysis done by Bill Hamilton prior to this hour?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		No, I wasn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you weren't.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to give you a few of these things very quickly, both of you, and see if you agree with them.
		This is by Bill Hamilton.
		Inference is drawn by the appearance of a gray.
		The head is large by human standards.
		Inference, more brain capacity.
		Eyes are generally slanted, large and black.
		Inference, eyes probably gather more light than humans.
		Infers, dimmer sun and thinner atmosphere.
		Nose is usually vague.
		Two small narrows visible.
		Inference, thinner atmosphere.
		Mouth is indicated by a small slit without lips.
		The mouth appears to be non-functional.
		Inference, the atmosphere may not support sounds very well.
		Natural selection may have given gray E.B. small mouth and ears.
		No teeth.
		Inference does not mastigate food for a source of nutrients.
		The body and head are completely hairless.
		Inference.
		Hairless bodies may indicate warmth, even though the air is thin, could be warm because planet is close to sun or greys do not live above ground.
		and it goes on and on does that sound Bud, why don't you take that first?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, the descriptions are certainly accurate.
		That's the kind of description we get over and over and over again and have for decades.
		Whether or not the inferences as to what they imply are accurate or not is another story.
		There are certainly logical inferences that a person could make, but they're not necessarily accurate.
		We don't really know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And I agree with that.
		And I did the same thing actually in the threat, and I've written articles.
		I'm sorry, in Secret Life, I did the same thing.
		I inferred from their gross morphology how they might eat or get fuel and whether they breathe air and that sort of stuff.
		And I did the same thing in the threat with more information.
		And I do think that that's a legitimate thing to do.
		And I'm glad that people are doing it, to tell you the truth, because it's time to begin to deal with the data that's already on hand.
		We've collected a tremendous amount of information, as have other researchers, and we've been putting out the information semi-regularly anyway.
		And we have to start taking stock of exactly what we have.
		And so I think that Hamilton is certainly on the right mental track.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hybrids, hybrids, hybrids.
		If they're living among us now, any inference that we can draw about their presence with regard to motive, either one of you, have any idea why they would be living among us?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		In one of the cases I deal with in Sight Unseen, there seems to be a kind of nurturing of a human abductee over a long period of time,
		a man who lived, a parent hybrid, who lived with a family and in a sense it would certainly seem was negotiating the abductions of that child with the abductees and taking the child to an abduction site and so forth.
		And there seems to be a kind of studying of the behavior of human beings too, which they seem to be trying to learn by getting very, very close to the texture of real life.
		But again, some of these things are hard to ascertain, but it seems to be definitely going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are now several years downline from when I first interviewed both of you, and so many, many abductions have now occurred.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do either one of you have any doubts about the phenomena itself?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Everybody has doubts.
		You can't be human and not have doubts.
		But I think that the evidence is not just compelling, it's overwhelming.
		And to begin to deny the evidence puts you into a very, very bizarre mental realm because the evidence keeps piling up.
		It keeps accruing.
		It gets stronger and stronger and stronger.
		And denial of the import of this evidence in light of the fact that there is no psychological model for it makes one kind of crazy, actually.
		So you just have to go where the evidence leads you, and it leads you to one place, I think.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		You know, I've been asked about that same question a number of times, and I realized that it's with some regret that I realize that I no longer have the luxury of disbelief about this.
		It's such a difficult thing to accept.
		It's so crazy, and it's so outside what we want to be true, and the realm of the possible as we've always imagined.
		It's outside that.
		And so to have to accept it is somehow a disadvantage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I really do actually agree with that.
		Prior to the hour, I said, you know, the bar has been kind of passed on the fact that it's occurring for me.
		That bar is passed, and I'm up to asking and really wanting to know why and what this is all about.
		So that one bar is passed for me.
		It does seem to be happening.
		So I guess I'm sold on that one.
		The next obvious question is, what's happening to us?
		Why are they doing it?
		And hybrids would be a good place to start.
		I mean, why produce half-human, half-alien beings?
		And what purpose would they serve here on Earth?
		Would they artist in continuing or fostering new abductions or what?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Once again, well, I think, Dave, I think that's so much the subject of both your books that it's really a thing Dave is, I just have to say, I take my hat off to Dave for the courage that he's shown in following the evidence through to a logical conclusion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, look, back during the days when we were getting the little warm and fuzzy E.T., Dave was the only guy stepping forth saying, hey, one moment, please.
		Perhaps so, but these may not be friends of ours, and everybody ought to just sort of slow up here a little bit.
		And I found that pretty brave at the time.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, or foolhardy, one of the two.
		But the fact is that I wish I could get evidence of touchy, feely, benevolent beings.
		That would make my life a lot easier, I'll tell you that.
		And I could sleep a lot easier at night, too.
		But in fact, I just don't get that.
		And I never have, to tell you the truth, not in the way that other people do anyway.
		And so my evidence has been very, very strictly controlled.
		That is to say, I'm extremely careful in how I gather my evidence.
		And I'm very careful in my questioning, and I'm very conservative.
		And I don't accept at face value what people say automatically, whether it's good, bad, or indifferent.
		And I'm always waiting for verification from others.
		And I've managed to get some controls together so that when people do tell me what's going on with them, I can have a certain amount of assurance that they're on the right track and that there's a certain amount of believability in them.
		Having said that, the question is, you know, what's the deal with hybrids?
		Well, you know, Bud, I remember, but if I may talk about you in the third person, even though you're right there, you called me up in 1984, I think it was, or maybe it was 85, and you told me you had this most amazing case, the most amazing case that you'd ever heard, how this woman was abducted, and they showed her a bizarre-looking baby.
		And the baby sort of looked half-human and half alien, and they wanted her to feed the baby, put the baby up to her breast.
		And I remember thinking, I have never heard anything so off-the-wall and so bizarre in my life.
		And to even mention the word baby in the context of UFOs and abductions just didn't make any sense whatsoever.
		And I think that was sort of the beginning, the early parts of your discovery of this reproductive aspect of the abduction phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe it would be worthwhile asking Bud to re-relate that story.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, that goes back to 1983.
		It's even earlier.
		But it's the book that I wrote.
		I wrote intruders about that particular case, This was Chris.
		Oh, it's Chris before that.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, but Debbie was 83, was when I got into that case.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		This was the first one, though, I think, that you remember that call.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		I call it every point in my life.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, It might be true.
		But what I began to pick up was there were several people who described to me that amongst the abduction experiences that they remembered partially or altogether, there was a strange physical situation where they remember having been pregnant, even though they might not have been sexually active or whatnot.
		And how they got pregnant, they were definitely pregnant, and they suddenly weren't pregnant anymore.
		And not getting pregnant, I mean, without any sense of a miscarriage or anything like that, the pregnancy disappearing was really upsetting.
		And then they told me separately, different people, that they had these very vivid memories of being shown the tiny baby and being told the baby was theirs.
		And they were being asked to hold the baby, to bond with it, or to put it to their breasts.
		Even when they weren't lactating, they seemed to be able to lactate and feed the baby.
		And all of this seemed outrageous.
		And yet, I started getting case after case when I began asking people, asking women, if you've ever had any unusual pregnancies.
		And out came one thing after another.
		And the idea that the baby was either, it was actually partially human, partially alien in its appearance, that either it was a situation of artificial insemination or an already fertilized ovum was,
		which had been, let's say, genetically altered, had been inserted in them as if the host of a female womb was essential to the development of this baby.
		And then it was removed after a period of time.
		And very often these babies seem to be reared in some kind of tank of liquid.
		They're not brought to term in anyone's body.
		Well, the whole thing seemed outrageous.
		And yet, when we look back to the Betty and Barney Hill case, we knew that there was a sperm sample taken from Barney Hill, and that Betty Hill was given what she called a pregnancy test.
		And of course, going back even further to the case in Brazil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I tell you what, we're right at a break, U2.
		Hold on a sec.
		We'll be right back.
		Two of the greats are here, Bud Hopkins, Dr. David Jacobs, from the high desert.
		in the nighttime when you think about things like this this is coast to coast a m Tell me what you say.
unidentified		Don't you love her, Wendy?
		Wanna be your daddy?
		And don't you love her face?
		Don't you love her as she's walking out the door?
		Like she did one thousand times before.
		Don't you love her ways?
		Tell me what you say.
		Don't you love her as she's walking out the door?
		All your love, all your love, all your love, all your love.
		All your love is gone, a single lonely song of a deep-loved dream.
		Seven horses seem to be on the mark.
		To recharge bells in the Kingdom of Nai from west of the Rockies dial 1-800-6188255.
		East of the Rockies 1-800-8255033.
		First time callers may recharge at 1-775727-1222.
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		This is Coast to Coast AM with our bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is here tonight on abductions, two of the real greats, Dr. David Jacobs and, of course, Bud Hopkins, who's got a brand new book out.
		And we'll be back to both of them in just a moment.
		Stay right where you are.
		Once again, Dr. David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins, two of the greats with us.
		And we were talking about pregnancy, and I was trying to imagine how anybody could get pregnant.
		I mean, there's usually a nine-month period in there, but you sort of answered that, saying that perhaps these babies were raised, bud, in some sort of chamber?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So do these hybrids, do you believe, either one of you, these hybrids know what they are?
		Are they being instructed?
		What do they know?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, just in terms of some of the material covered in the book, that's a very good question to know exactly what they know about their own origin and physical makeup.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		We don't really know that, but there is some reason to believe that they're a little bit conflicted on that issue as to exactly who or what they are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have either one of you interviewed anybody who claims to be a hybrid or that you suspect of being a hybrid?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		I have not.
		I've had people call me up and tell me that they think that their roommate is a hybrid.
		And one time I had a woman call me up who actually was a professor at a major university and told me her roommate was a hybrid.
		And she made a really good case, I must say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And in what way?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, she was this very, very strange person who didn't know certain basic things about normal life and was just very odd, but this was just on the phone and I didn't, you know, it was thousands of miles away and I couldn't just go out there and start investigating it.
		But I've had other people who say that they have seen hybrids, that they have had relationships with hybrids who actually held down jobs and that sort of thing.
		And these people are solid citizens who are not prone to fantasy or to lying.
		And so there is a situation in which hybrids can kind of live these sort of normal lives.
		But ultimately, I guess the question is, what's the purpose of this?
		Why are these hybrids being produced, in a sense?
		And my own research has led to the conclusion that what we're going to be seeing is a lot more of what Bud has described, and that this ultimately might be a program of integration into the society by the hybrids, and not necessarily by the aliens, but almost certainly by the hybrids.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		least that's that's where the evidence seems to but they were there would be serving uh...
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I certainly think it would.
		And yet, even in some of the cases that I dealt with in Sight Unseen, they seem to be a little conflicted about the fact that their true connection and loyalties lie with the gray aliens, and yet they seem to develop, at least in some cases, enormous sympathies and connections with normal humans.
		So they're a little bit conflicted about their loyalties, which means this whole thing is enormously complex emotionally, psychologically, and every other way.
		And incidentally, we're going to have a conference on October 11th, which can be, details can be found out on our website, which is intrudersfoundation.org.
		But anyway, at that conference, one of the people coming is one of the people I've written about in the book, who is himself a university professor.
		But he's going to be talking about his encounters, which have been several, with what seems to be a hybrid being, that he seems to have some connection with from time to time.
		It's a very, very bizarre story.
		But as Dave said, you know, some of these cases are extremely, the people are extremely credible, and the descriptions they're giving are really fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But do you remember a story you told me about an abduction that occurred in New York City?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I've had many abductions that occur in New York City.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's where I happen to live.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but this came right out of a skyscraper or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, this person literally came out of a skyscraper.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've had, of course, the abduction case that was so important was the one that I wrote about I Witnessed, where the woman floated out of a 12-story window and up into a craft and was witnessed by numerous people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wonder if either of you have thoughts on this.
		Yes, that was an incredible story.
		And everybody who talks about abductions is, well, how come they always occur, you know, out in the middle of the desert somewhere?
		The fact is, occasionally they occur in a place like New York City.
		What would you imagine could be so important, either one of you, so that they would take the chance of doing something in the middle of an urban area like New York?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, this goes right back to what Vaude was talking about as one of the aspects of his book, and that is that location really doesn't mean anything.
		If you can't be seen, it doesn't matter where a person is abducted.
		That's a good point.
		What was extraordinary about the Linda case was that she was seen being abducted.
		All sorts of people on the outside watched her floating through the window.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think there was a car from the UN or something, wasn't there?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		There were many people who were in a procession of cars who were diplomatic people from different countries even, and UN personnel and so forth.
		And all of them, the cars were stopped almost as if this was a built-in audience.
		And the abduction only took place when the cars were all stopped, their engines killed of the electrical system.
		And then at that point, the lights were turned on and the show took place.
		The women floated out as if the aliens were for the first time saying, look what we can do.
		But the main thing about this invisibility issue, as Dave just said, it doesn't make any difference.
		And I have to take my hat off to Dave, who was the first one to present the invisibility issue as a given aspect of abductions.
		But I have had, I've looked into abductions that took place in Tokyo, in Chicago, in Rome, in Paris, in London.
		I mean, you cannot imagine.
		And I have abductions.
		I hear about an abduction and look into it that occurs in New York City probably once a month at this point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I get these little computer messages as I go, and Darren in Decatur, Illinois says, hey, I think the sickly and irradiated grays are us, humans, from a future gone wrong, trying to fix this situation without ruining themselves.
		Thus, the hybrids, time travel art, that's how the aliens got here.
		Possibility?
		Question mark?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I looked at this and I'm not a physicist and I'm certainly not a time traveler, so I don't have a whole lot of experience in it, and I count on my fingers and my toes.
		But there is a certain logical fallacy with time travel, because if people were traveling through time back from time, that means that the future has already happened, and that the future is predetermined to lead to those people traveling back in time.
		And if you come back and change the present in some way, you are changing it to conform to the future that has Already been predetermined, which would therefore automatically and absolutely lead those people to come back in time and try to change the present.
		And when you change the present, you're changing it in such a way that automatically determines that those people will in the future come back and change the present.
		And it goes on.
		It's a loop that you can't get out of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		However, if you go, okay.
		We'll get off into a, that'll take us off into a time travel discussion, which I'd love to do.
		But, you know, a lot of things are going on on Earth right now.
		The Antarctic is melting.
		The Arctic just cracked literally in half.
		The Ward Ice Shelf.
		I mean, things are going on on Earth at a pretty rapid pace right now that might cause somebody to conclude that in the future, the next 100, 200 years, whatever, this could be a really different place.
		What do you think?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, as a historian, I'll tell you right off, you can't tell the future.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		But I'd say that what you just said, Argo, is probably a pretty safe bet.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It certainly seems it.
		And whether if the aliens are interested in healing our planet, as many people say, they might be healing it for them as well as for us or instead of for us.
		And of course, one of the problems with the idea that that's their basic mission with the abduction phenomenon is that most abductees are not necessarily more environmentally conscious than most non-abductees.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, sticking with David's theory of how things might be, though, they also might be waiting for a vacancy.
		colony and i don't know that i don't know that i don't know that i don't know that i just I'm not sure what to make out of it.
		I don't know why if they saw that we were cascading toward extinction, you wouldn't think they'd be needing to do this abduction business and all this toying around with reproductive stuff.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a good point, actually.
		And we might, in fact, be heading towards extinction, but it might be a million years from now, and so it doesn't really matter for their agenda.
		But the fact is, though, that what we're all doing together right now is dealing with the nature of alien intentions.
		And this is something that the abduction phenomenon has allowed us to do for the first time.
		When we studied the outside shells of objects for years and years and years and years, any attempt to figure out exactly who was inside them or what they were doing here or what they wanted was just impossible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Impossible.
		We've got sightings, we've got physical stuff.
		That bar has passed too.
		They've been up there and they've been up there for as long as we've been alive.
		And you're right.
		We can't conclude a damn thing from any of that.
		But these abductions, that's a different story.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Now for the first time you can have serious discussions about the nature and purposes of this phenomenon and who these beings are and just exactly what they want with us and why they're doing these things to us.
		And I think that this is a huge step forward in UFO research, one that I don't think that people fully understand.
		I think that a lot of people in UFO research feel that we're just sort of treading water, that we don't know any more now than we did 30 years ago, and there's no place else to go and all that.
		And yet at the same time, when you take a look at the abduction phenomenon, you realize that we've pretty much cracked this thing open.
		And we're dealing with the details of their intentions and the details of their program on a minute basis.
		And it's something that I think that more and more people have to realize the evidence has been presented in almost an avalanche form in the past 20 years, especially.
		And now we're beginning to deal with it, I hope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, is there any such thing as a typical abduction?
		I mean, are there enough commonalities that you two here, with all the people you talk to, to say, here are the things in common.
		Here is a typical type abduction.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, but I found all mine to be completely different.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		What about you?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		The similarities are extraordinary.
		And now, this is a very interesting thing, a way of looking at it.
		It's the things that the aliens do when they abduct people, the methods they use and so forth, and what happens when the person is on the table are extraordinarily similar.
		And in a negative way, when you turn it around, there are all these things that they never do.
		As an example, when the abductee is put on a table, stripped, put on a table, paralyzed, and we used to use the term examine, but we know actually that these are fixed procedures that they go through.
		They seem always extraordinarily interested in two aspects of the human body, the reproductive system and it would seem the central nervous system.
		Over and over again, those are the focuses of their interest in the human body.
		Now, when we go to a doctor, we worry about our heart and lungs and so forth.
		We have no cases, virtually no cases, where there seems to be an interest on the alien's part in the human cardiovascular system.
		They never pay any attention to the heart.
		Now, this is really interesting because we do.
		This is something central to us, but it never turns up in UFO abduction accounts.
		And it certainly would be turning up that way if, in fact, this was a product of fantasy.
		It's not a product of fantasy.
		It's a product of a very rigid, repeated system that the UFO occupants are using when they deal with human beings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then what kind of inference can we draw from that?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think we can draw the inference that their interest in us is physical.
		And I should also say emotional, too, and psychological, how our minds work.
		They are not interested in our technology.
		They don't care about our computers and our weaponry and so forth.
		They are interested In human beings' physical properties, their DNA, their particular genetic makeup, and they're interested in the way our minds work and our emotions operate and so forth.
		This is one reason why, very often, abductees during an abduction, after the physical parts that take place, the abductee is shown imagery, virtual imagery, so to speak, as if they're trying to check what our reactions are emotionally to various things that they can present to us.
		They seem extremely interested in the way the human mind works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of things are they shown, typically?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Dave, you want to...
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes they're shown scenes of average everyday life.
		Sometimes they're shown scenes of verdant, beautiful wilderness areas.
		There's a variety of things that people see.
		Most people are more impressed, of course, by the violent scenes.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		One of the interesting cases I have is a man who was, after he was examined and the physical procedures take place, he was allowed to walk in the craft independently, which is very, very rare, but does happen.
		And he was in some area which was quite dark, and he looked down at the floor.
		He saw something on the floor, and there was an apparently dead or dying alien on the floor.
		And he looked down at it.
		He could see its face, and he felt this wave of sympathy for it, as a human might for any kind of a dying fellow creature of any sort.
		And he was studying this.
		He realized off to one side there were three aliens standing staring at him, observing him intently, as if they were reading his emotions, and as if what he was seeing was actually something that was being staged.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As if they wanted to understand how we would react to the prospect of death.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And their death, say, at this point.
		It's almost like a projective test where they elicit emotions from humans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's fascinating.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And they seem fascinated in the way our minds work.
		Dave and I have had many, many, many cases of this where, and Dave has given the name staging, where these events seem to be staged.
		And they're almost little playlets sometimes, but they're shown things, the abbektee, because it's almost a projective test.
		We think the aliens can tick up the emotions of the viewer, of the human viewer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm going to be pushing you to the edge of what you're able to comment on, but then again, the same question.
		Then what is the inference we can draw from that?
		They want to know what our emotions are about something like death.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Why?
unidentified		Toward what ultimate end?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, I tend to look at this just a little differently.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		And I think that Bud is right, but I think that it's more of a neurological checking, and at least now, and I'm just guessing here, of course, but I think that this is more of a neurological conditioning for future activity.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		One of the things that's interesting on this that I've written about in Sight Unseen are situations where they seem to be wanting to learn from us what our emotions and feelings are so that their hybrid beings, these hybrids, know how to behave and perform when they're on Earth.
unidentified		Ha ha ha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, yes, got that.
		All right, listen, we're coming to the end of an hour here, Bud.
		Okay.
		Your call, if you want to stick around, we're happy to have you.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, I think that I've contributed what I have to contribute, and I really appreciate for the chance to have done it, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		So thank you very much.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bud Hopkins, thank you.
		And David, hold tight.
		And all of you, hold tight.
		That was quite a bit to digest.
		Good evening, everybody.
		Dr. David Jacobs continues with us next.
unidentified		Stay right there.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
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		And to call Art on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed.
		There are some rides you might not want to take.
		We're discussing some of those.
		We're discussing abductions.
		But a Hopkins was here last hour.
		continue in a moment with Dr. David Jacobs.
unidentified		Dr. David Jacobs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is Dr. David Jacobs.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		His book is UFOs and Abductions, Challenging the Borders Of knowledge.
		That's his most recent book that you're certainly going to want to look into.
		His original book, the one that I first had him on the program for, was called The Threat.
		Now, in that book, Dr. Jacobs describes an alien culture that perhaps or a threat that you might be a ride.
		You know, Doctor, I'm all the time getting these people call me up.
		Hey, Art, how do I get abducted?
		Oh, I want to be abducted.
		I want to see what it's like.
		I want to experience this.
		What do I do to get abducted?
		And I always write back and say, be careful what you wish for.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Right.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Actually, the way that you do to get yourself abducted is you have a mother or a father who's an abductee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, in other words, it's all in the family.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		It's all in the family, right?
		It's intergenerational, and that's the one thing that all abductees have in common.
		But let me just make a little minor adjustment to what you just said, Art.
		My first book actually was called The UFO Controversy in America, and then years later in 1992, I published Secret Life, which was about abductions.
		And I think it was on your show for that originally, and then thread came out in the 1990s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the threat hit me right between the eyes.
		That's why I said that.
		It really hit me between the eyes.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		I think it hits everybody right between the eyes, but not in a way that I would want.
		Well, it's a pretty strong book, and it goes pretty far out on a limb, and it's one of those books that I tell people I'm horribly embarrassed about.
		Really?
		And yet I'm extremely confident of the data.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Highly embarrassed.
		Why embarrassed?
		I mean, there's plenty of people that are out on just as narrow a limb on the other side, you know, saying they're here to help us, they're going to save us from some ecological disaster, they're friendly, they're warm and fuzzy, all the rest of it.
		There's plenty of people out on that limb, so why be embarrassed to be out on this one?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Right, and it's, you know, that's why I'm writing this book that I've been doing now.
		At least I've been threatening to do it, but I'm about halfway through it now, which is about methodology.
		All this boils down to is learning how to learn about the subject.
		One of the things we've discovered is that when people remember what happened to them straight out, and it's just a conscious memory without any hypnosis whatsoever, it's almost always totally wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's almost always totally wrong?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean as corrected later by hypnosis or what?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		What we find is that because this is a clandestine phenomenon and because people's memories are blocked neurologically, obviously, there's no other way to do it.
		When they remember something straight out, they remember bits and pieces of things, and sometimes even those bits and pieces are distorted, and they put them together into a seamless narrative, and it becomes a concrete memory to them, and they'd stake their life on it.
		I mean, I've had people tell me absolutely with fist and palm, this is what happened to me.
		I remember it like it was yesterday, and this happened, this happened, this happened, and this happened.
		And then we'll investigate this case, you know, the situation, the memory and hypnosis, and they begin to realize it didn't happen that way.
		And they'll say, you know, I think I was wrong about this.
		This is not what I'm remembering.
		What I'm remembering now is something else, which actually suddenly becomes more logical.
		And they can see the pieces that they had remembered and how it fits into a more complex.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does it suddenly become darker when you do hypnosis?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sometimes no, sometimes yes.
		But for sure it becomes different.
		And the problem then is that when people stake everything on their conscious memories, they might be a little bit on thin eyes.
		And I just advise people just to be real careful because what you remember is one thing, but if we do with competent hypnosis, it might turn out not to be exactly as you remember it.
		And in fact, it might turn out to be a lot stranger, which it usually does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, with the technological level that human beings have right now, we know enough about genetics to know where that science is going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then if your model is that the people that are doing these abductions are far ahead of us in these sciences, which by extension they would be, then the things that they could do with bodily fluids and the other things that are taken, the reproductive organs that are studied, well, there's no limit, is there?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		You know, that's exactly right.
		They can pretty much do any damn thing they want.
		But it also begs this bizarre question.
		And the question is, if they're taking people's firm and taking people's eggs, which they've known about since Antonio Via's Boasag in 1957, if they're doing that, then why don't they just take a couple thousand eggs from each woman and they would need all the eggs that they would ever have.
		They would just take the follicles and they could mature the eggs in vitro.
		And once you get a couple of gallons of sperm around, you could make a whole lot of babies with a couple of gallons of sperm if you know how to do it right.
		And so we don't know exactly why they're doing what they're doing.
		But one of the things that we found in this phenomenon is that everything is absolutely logical.
		They know exactly what they're doing, and they are doing it for a reason, and the way in which it is done is the best possible way for them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, give me an example from any abduction case you care to call back to memory of something that follows a chain of logic.
		In what way?
		Describe it to me.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I'll go back to this call that Hopkins gave me back in 1983 when he told me this amazing story about how they had this woman saw this strange baby and they had her put this baby up to the baby's breast.
		And this is one of my favorite stories because at that time, in 1983 or 84, whenever it was, I mean, this was, we were just beginning to learn about this subject and we really didn't know much about it at all.
		And I remember thinking, this is just the strangest, most bizarre thing I ever heard in my life.
		And I said to Bob, I said, you know, did she tell them that when they Told her to put the baby up to her breast and feed the baby, that this can't be done.
		She's not pregnant, she's not lactating, she just can't feed the baby.
		That's not how human beings work.
		And he said, Well, yes, she did.
		She said that she couldn't feed the baby, but they forced her to put the baby up to her breast anyway.
		And I thought to myself, gosh, that is so bizarre that we will never, if this is true, we will never be able to communicate with these beings because they value form over function.
		The form is putting the baby up to the breast, and the function is feeding the baby, but there is no way to feed the baby.
		And therefore, their style of thinking is very, very different than ours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what do you conclude from that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, is it symbology or no?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		It was nothing of the sort.
		It was just that we didn't know.
		What we learned later on is that there's a procedure that takes place on the table early on in the abduction phenomena which stimulates lactation.
		And whether a woman knows it or not, she is in fact lactating and the baby will feed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think for the simple traditional reason?
		I mean, humans have always thought that breastfeeding has all kinds of advantages for a child.
		A breastfed child has advantages over a non-breastfed child.
		Certain nutrients and protections against viruses and blah, blah, blah.
		I don't know.
		There's supposed to be advantages.
		We've certainly always thought that.
		Any reason to believe that it was any different with them?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		There probably isn't, actually.
		But you've come to a, that's also another can of worms question because, you know, how much are these babies fed?
		And the question is which ones are actually fed or not.
		And because as Bill Hamilton mentioned, and as I talked about in Secret Life and in The Threat, aliens do not ingest food through their mouth.
		And late-stage hybrids, the ones who look really human, will ingest food through their mouth.
		Early stage hybrids, the ones who look primarily alien but somewhat human, don't.
		And so the question then is, what kind of babies is she feeding?
		And how much milk do they actually need?
		And how do they get nutrients other than the milk?
		And is this woman who is feeding the baby the only woman who will feed that particular baby?
		Or is there a succession of women who are feeding the baby?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How frequently in abduction stories have you even run into that?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Oh, all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All the time.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Oh, this is extremely common.
		An extremely common phenomenon.
		I can't emphasize that enough.
		This is an extremely common event.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Brother.
		So, you know, do you think that these hybrids are for our benefit ultimately or their benefit ultimately?
		Or is there some common cause?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		You know, I really wish that this was for our benefit.
		I want this to be for our benefit.
		I want this to lead to a better life, a better world, a better whatever, a happier something.
		But all I hear is how everything is going to be great in the future.
		Everything is going to be wonderful in the future when they are here with us.
		But I don't hear that it's going to be wonderful for us necessarily.
		And it's certainly going to be wonderful for them.
		They tend to talk almost exclusively from their perspective.
		And their perspective is very different than ours.
		So this program, which they've obviously invested a tremendous amount of energy and personnel into, is something that they think is extremely worthwhile and obviously positive for them.
		But when I look at the future with him, I'm filled with trepidation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it your view, Doctor, that they fill the victims of abduction and maybe the mothers of the hybrids with what they feel, and then the mothers are simply translating this in their own brain into the joy over what's occurring?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it's not their joy, it's the aliens' joy.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's another really good question.
		And it leads to two areas.
		Number one, when you deal with aliens, gray aliens, their emotions are severely restricted, so joy is not something that we see in them.
		With late-stage hybrids who really look quite human, they do have joy.
		But the other question then is, why would a woman be feeling this kind of maternal joy to feed an infant or hold an infant or have some sort of other skin-on-skin contact with an infant?
		And the answer is that that's a mixed bag.
		A lot of women say, oh, I don't want to go near those babies.
		Get those babies away from me.
		Don't let those babies touch me.
		And they sort of force the woman to do this anyway.
		But some women do have these maternal feelings.
		Now, here is the situation when you take a step back from it.
		They're standing there naked on board a UFO surrounded by bug-eyed monsters from another planet and weird-looking babies, and they're beginning to have overwhelming maternal feelings, and they want to hug and feed the babies and so forth.
		And the question is, is that the appropriate emotional response for the event?
		you know i'm not a mom so i don't know right and and and the answer that i'm not one either and so i can't help but but i do know that that they simply forget about their surroundings and and they have this kind Well, it's not necessarily their own babies either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure that maternal instinct's very strong, David, but gee, in a spaceship naked with aliens, like you said, bug-eyed monsters standing there, that's got to be some really strong maternal instinct.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		It's got to be off-putting, let's put it that way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would be for me.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		So the point is that I think a lot of these feelings are simply generated in them neurologically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's why I asked, with regard to this rosy future and things being better and this wonderful feeling that people describe, I talk to them, I hear it all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How can we be sure if they can impart one feeling, you know, the strong maternal get over where you are and who's looking at you feeling, go ahead and feed that baby, that's pretty good, then why not impart the future is going to be wonderful, but, you know, it might not be our future that's wonderful, it might be theirs.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
		And that's what a lot of people feel, that the future is going to be wonderful, but they're sort of confused about for who and for what and all that.
		But there's something else, and that is that there's another procedure here that I might as well just kind of strictly address.
		And that is an extremely effective procedure, both effective and affective.
		It accomplishes what it needs to do, and it has tremendous influence on people as well.
		That is to say that there's an egg-taking procedure, and virtually all women go through this at one time or another.
		Even women, obviously, with hysterectomies and having people have their ovaries removed, since they're abductees for all their lives, before that they've had these experiences.
		So they've all had it one way or another.
		And they take eggs in a specific way.
		It's usually intravaginally and all that.
		But in fact, they can stimulate sexual arousal.
		And we've heard this many, many, many, many times, much to the abductee's embarrassment.
		And this goes all the way up to peak arousal, so to speak, to the peak moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To climax, yeah.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		At which point they go ahead and take the egg.
		And there's something that physiologically takes place that facilitates the egg taking.
		And I've seen this procedure literally hundreds of times, and that is not an exaggeration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, why is that unusual to contemplate?
		I mean, after all, normally all of this begins to take place with that thing we call sex, right?
		And so maybe there's some aspect of the actual act of sex that goes well in the way that a mother feeding a child goes well.
		I mean, some part of it that's important.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it either facilitates it through the normal changes that take place or else it facilitates release of eggs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Plus, you'd have to admit it would take the edge off an abduction.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		It does do that.
		And that's sort of what my point is here.
		Now, almost immediately everything subsides and they just go about their business.
		And there's nothing sexual about this.
		It's all just reproductive with this kind of sexual arousal feelings that women feel is engendered in them, usually while one of these beings stares very deeply into their eyes.
		And they just might leap to more kind of strange things to say by what they're doing is they're stimulating the optic nerve and then using the optic nerve as a conduit to stimulate other neurological sites in the brain, which would cause this.
		But the point is this.
		Now, supposing this happens to you when you're a nine-year-old girl, and it goes on and on, all through nine, all through 10, 11, 12 through adolescence, and into adulthood, do you think this might affect someone?
		And the answer is, for some people, no, but for other people, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd have said yes.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And a lot of this kind of effect comes out in people saying, you know, I've known aliens all my life, and they're just wonderful.
		And I just love them, and they love me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
		You're absolutely right.
		I've had more of those than I can tell you about.
		And they seem so totally far out.
		And I've had women on the program talking about, I swear to you, sex with aliens and real serious about it.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, now there's another aspect to that as well.
		And as long as we can bring this conversation full circle by this part.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		And that is that, first of all, aliens have no genitals.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		So having sex with them is a tough one.
unidentified		Yeah.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		That's a tough one.
		But hybrids, late-stage hybrids do.
		And late-stage hybrids are pretty much human.
		Now, the cycle of taking eggs and inserting fetuses and then taking out the fetuses, this goes on and on and on.
		But you know, with an adult hybrid, you can do the same thing but bypassing a couple of procedures.
		What happens is, if I may backtrack a little bit, if you take an egg and a sperm and then you fertilize them, so you put them together, and then you take that gamete and you, or zygote and you, and you in some way introduce alienate DNA, let's just say, let's, for the purpose of argument, say that that's what's happening.
		Again, I'm not exactly sure.
		Then you have to take that fertilized egg with the DNA in it and put it back into the female.
		And 10 weeks later, you remove it and then it's gestated in this kind of container, as Bud pointed out.
		Well, with an adult hybrid, he is already inserting pre-DNA'd material, so to speak.
		In other words, you don't have to take the sperm and the egg and take them out and then alter it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because you've got the real McCoy, right?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		He's already altered.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		And so we do see that between adult hybrids and women and men.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even imagine this.
		All right, hold on.
		We're at a breakpoint.
		Dr. David Jacobs is my guest.
		And what we're talking about is abduction.
		And maybe we're talking about a lot more than that.
		Are we talking about a new world?
		Are we talking about a change in human beings forever and ever?
unidentified		I wonder.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, every once in a while a piece of bumper music is so good and it fits so well, you really have to use it twice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In conjunction with what we've been talking about, listen to the words here.
unidentified		Once upon a time, once when you were mine, I remember skies reflected in your eyes.
		I wonder where you are, I wonder if you think about me, once upon a time, in your wildest dreams.
		Thank you.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Call Art Bell from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach Art at area code 775-727-1222.
		Or call the Wildcard line at 775-727-1295.
		To talk with Art on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once upon a time, when you were nine, I wonder if you remember in even your wildest dreams.
		It just sort of fit right in there.
		Dr. David Jacobs is my guest.
		They're talking about abductions of human beings, the very strange things that are being done to them, and maybe, maybe why.
		Guarantee you one thing, you'll never hear a discussion of this sort on the major networks, at least until some of those hybrids begin to get to be made network vice presidents or something.
		David, I've got a sort of a little fast blast I want to read here from Kay in Birmingham, Alabama, who says, all right, you know, the first place I'd look for any answers would be hybrids from history, the past history.
		The answer I keep coming back to is the account of the fallen angels recorded in the Bible, compelling evidence, in my opinion.
		The reason is a case of good versus evil.
		Well, you know, inevitably, David, we're going to get to people with the Bible and God.
		And when you start talking about aliens and reproduction and manipulating human beings and hybrids, and that's creation, David, of a kind.
		It's like creation.
		And, you know, people are threatened because of their religious beliefs.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Right, and the major religions are big enough to incorporate these kinds of events into them somewhere along the line.
		But actually, there's a way of looking at this that's a little bit different.
		And one of the ways of doing it is to ask the question, is how long have abductions been going on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long have they been going on?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, if this is intergenerational, what that means is that if a non-abductee marries an abductee, and they have four children, all four children will be abductees from what we've been able to tell, at least close to it.
		And so it's not normal genetics.
		It's sort of abnormal genetics.
		It's not like two will be and two won't be and all that sort of luck in the draw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have to do the numbers on that one.
		It's kind of like putting a penny away and then doubling it every day.
		I forget what it is, but in 45 days or something, you're a millionaire.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, aren't we creating hybrids at that kind of accelerated rate?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure.
		We might indeed be.
		But in terms of how old this situation is, then the question then is how long will it take for everybody to be an abductee?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, that's what I meant when I said the entire human race may be undergoing a change.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		But I don't think that that's the case.
		I think that only a small percentage of humans are abductees.
		I think it's probably around 5%, maybe % more or less.
		But certainly within that ballpark, I don't think it hits double digits yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, before we leave entirely the sexual aspect of this, if this phenomena cuts across every class, then do we have, and I know we keep records, a ratio of heterosexual to homosexual abduction experiences?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, it mirrors the society.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		It's just exactly the same.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it mirrors the society.
		Now, one would assume that it wouldn't because people who are gay oftentimes don't have biological children, although oftentimes they do.
		So there would be a slowing down in that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Although they would be every bit as physically able, physiologically able, as we would.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		They would, but they wouldn't necessarily get married to an opposite-sex person.
		But I think that it mirrors the society.
		I think that the phenomenon is so large that it mirrors just virtually everything pretty much in the numbers that we ought to see ethnically and religiously and in terms of sexual preference and all that.
		But here's the point I'm saying.
		If this phenomenon started back in biblical times, then by the year 300 AD or so, or 200 AD, everybody would have been an abductee.
		And everybody would be thereafter.
		And if it started in the year 1100, well, by the year 1300 or so, everybody would be an abductee.
		And if it started in the year 1400, by the 17th century, everybody would be an abductee.
		It takes about seven or eight generations for this to happen.
		And we know that only a small percentage of the people are abductees.
		So when we trace the numbers back that way, it seems to start around the 1880s, 1890s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that means it's pretty well a lot far along then by now, right?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		There has been a lot of water under the bridge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of water under the bridge.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		And even though it's only been a little over 100 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of broken waters under the bridge.
unidentified		Right.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		but there's already several generations that have passed by.
		And what you see is a growing number of people who are abductees.
		And it shows up in our statistics as well, in the polls that we've taken.
		And that we have a growing number of people between the ages of 17, I'm sorry, or 18 and 25, I guess it is, who've had unusual experiences than people over the age of, let's say, say, 55 to 70.
		And of course, that shouldn't be, because when you ask people, have you had these sort of strange experiences, which we've asked them, people who are 18 or 20 years old haven't lived long enough to be able to say yes to a variety of them.
		Whereas people who are 50 or 60 have, and they've had more opportunity, just because they've lived longer, to have had these kinds of strange experiences.
		But in fact, younger people are saying that this has happened to them in greater frequency than older people.
		And I think that's that cone-like effect that you see spreading out in the society because of the intergenerational aspect of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are we able to note anything at all about the way the hybrids operate, what they do, the way they live their lives, anything that would suggest to us function?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, there is what we see here.
		I must say we don't know a whole lot about hybrid life, but we know much more about hybrids than we do about aliens.
		There you are.
		But still, it's obviously very sketchy.
		But we see I've seen hybrids in group situations where one woman described them sort of how they slept at night and their grooming kind of procedures for themselves and getting dressed and all that.
		But where we've seen hybrids more than anything is in abduction activity.
		And in recent years, and I think I might have mentioned this to you before, Art, but it's still true.
		In recent years, we've seen more and more hybrid-directed abductions with less and less aliens present.
		And this is what I think is a fairly ominous business.
		I don't like this.
		I want to bring back the aliens.
		They're my friends.
		I like them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Suppose somebody were to conclude, Doctor, that what's going on now with the abductions is just perhaps modifying or righting some wrong with regard to the original creation?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's possible.
		You know, if we could get into their minds more, it might be true.
		Maybe they're just genetically changing us to become more like them in some way so that we would be more perfect in their eyes.
		This is all their agenda.
		Once again, it's not ours.
		But what I think is happening, which is also disturbing to me, is that if this in fact is an integration program, the point is that these beings have abilities and skills that we do not have.
		And they have abilities to do things with their mind and with their technology that we just can't do.
		And that automatically makes us into second-class citizens.
		And there's a built-in inequality that I don't look forward to, to tell you the truth.
		And so it's not just integrating into the society.
		It's integrating into the society on their terms.
		And when Bud Hopkins and I were talking, we were sort of talking about how they're physically interested in people and they do this procedure and that procedure and some of the things they don't do.
		And one of the interesting things that I found over the years is that they appear to have no interest whatsoever in anything that is political or economic or social or religious or anything like that.
		There's nothing, no interest in human institutions, no interest in how humans lead their lives on an intellectual level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if they have no interest in any of that, what do they have an interest in?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, if they have no interest in any of that, that suggests to me that if this is an integration program, they will be integrating with their own institutions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, it's just to you, our institutions, whenever everything is finally their way, whatever their way is, it's not going to include any of our current institutions because they don't give a rat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They don't care.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		It seems that way, from what I can extrapolate, and I may be wrong about this, but their total lack of interest suggests that they have their own way of living that we will have to abide by, and human institutions will simply become secondary or unimportant or unimportant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure people are listening very carefully to what you're saying because the traditional view is they're here to help us.
		They're benign.
		They're wonderful.
		The future is going to be great.
		Listen very carefully, folks, to what Dr. Jacobs is saying.
		They don't care about our institutions.
		They don't care about politics.
		They don't care about our social lives.
		So think about that.
		What does that mean?
		Exactly what he just said, that probably that won't be part of, well, our future when we get there.
		And we must be well on our way.
		Do you see, let's presume for a second, all this is correct, Doctor, and they are not our friends, and they're about to change everything we know.
		And, well, I don't know if we love politics, you know, but everything we sort of, our way of being, that all that is going to change.
		Is there any way to stop it?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		This is an area where not enough talented people have thought about and put their minds together and tried to figure out a way to stop it.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Now, the problem is this, that this is a global phenomenon, and the amount of people who are being abducted around the world is just fantastic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's our best guess?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do we think?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, if it's 5% of the American population, it's almost certainly 5% of the world population.
		And 5% of 6 billion is about 300 million and growing.
		And That would be about the size of the population of the U.S. Yeah, now supposing that I'm wrong by a factor of 50% or so, you're still dealing with tremendous numbers of people.
		And as I said, growing all the time, which means that they have invested a tremendous amount of energy and resources into this phenomenon.
		So this is a very, very, very important event for them, and certainly obviously for us.
		And the abduction phenomenon continues night and day, day after day, year after year, and doesn't seem to be abated.
		And Art, I've already forgotten the first part of your question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think our military is aware of this ongoing process?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, as we talked about some time ago, I hope they are.
		I really hope they are.
		And I hope the government is aware of it.
		And I hope that they're all working on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because if our entire way of life and thinking and living is threatened, you know, everything we know and love, if all of that is threatened, then that would be a very serious threat against us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hence, the military would be certainly looking into it.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		But there's another more subtle side, Art.
		And the subtle side is it's completely crazy.
		And that's the side that they all go for.
		And in their minds, you know, that's the right side.
		And when you take a look at this from the outside, it certainly seems like the right side.
		What I've been saying for the past hour is to any logical person who doesn't know anything about the subject is completely insane.
		And I'm exquisitely aware of that.
		But I do think that the government takes its cues primarily from the scientific community.
		And I can absolutely guarantee you that the scientific community is resolutely hostile to this subject.
		It doesn't take a neutral stance.
		It doesn't take a stance of, oh, that's interesting.
		Let's learn more about it.
		It takes a stance of, this is just completely nuts, and we will not look at it or study it ever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly publicly, you're correct.
		That stance they take.
		I wonder, though, you know, there's so many levels of government and secrecy that we don't know about.
		Maybe at some level they don't laugh so hard.
		Maybe at some level they really are studying this and concerned about it and trying to figure out how to fight it.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, all I can say is I just hope that that's the case.
		I really hope that that's the case because somebody's got to be doing it.
		I mean, it's not up to Bud Hopkins and me and a few other people around the country who do this.
		Somebody else has got to be doing this too, and I hope you're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if somebody comes to you, Doctor, and they say, look, I've been getting abducted since I was nine.
		I'm fed up with it.
		I hate it.
		For whatever reason, I want it to stop.
		Can you help me?
		What would you tell them?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, if they lived in the area that I live in, in the Philadelphia or East Coast area, and they could get to me, I would have them fill out a questionnaire first, and I would decide whether or not they were compatible to going forward with me and all that, and whether they had some mental illness or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but my larger question is, I guess, is there a way to stop abduction?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		And then I would tell them that what we'll work for is emotional and intellectual control of this situation so you can get on the control, you can know what's going on, you can know how it's affected your life, and eventually get to the point of stopping thinking about it, stopping obsessing on it, and just go on and lead a normal life.
		But physical control I cannot give them.
		I can't stop this phenomenon from happening.
		And the problem is this, and now I remember my train of thought.
		The phenomenon is so large, and yet it is clandestine.
		And most people, maybe 99% of abductees, do not know that they're abductees.
		So you can't stop it on a worldwide basis.
		You don't even know where to stop it starting at.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can't even stop it on the individual basis.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		And even then, it becomes tremendously difficult because it can happen at any time, night, or day.
		Now, it usually doesn't happen during a work situation or when a person is in the company of a lot of people.
		But there are ways of stopping it.
		Yes, if you really want to, you can.
		I had one woman who took a length of string and she strung it up around her before she went to bed, even before she put her nightgown on.
		And she strung it up around her crotch and up around her shoulders and around the other shoulder and down around and around her waist.
		And then she cut it off and she tied it up.
		And then she did it again with another length of string.
		And then she did it again.
		And so that she was completely dressed up.
		And then she told her husband to hide the scissors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and that stopped it.
		That stopped it.
		That was a zero abduction event.
		But it aborted it is what it did, because when she began to be abducted, they realized what she had done, and they refused to take her.
		And we know that they will not take people in these kinds of situations.
		And I won't go into it, but you've got to be sort of normal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they took one look at her, and they said, we're out of here.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		They asked her why she was doing that, and they told her this was not good.
		She shouldn't do this.
		And they told her not to do it.
		And first they wanted her to remove the string, and she said she couldn't.
		And then they told her this was very bad, and she shouldn't do this.
		And they came back the next night, and she had trussed herself up again, and they once again gave her this stern, you know, talking about how this was bad.
		And she did it again the third night.
		And on the third night, she bargained with them.
		And she said, listen, I will not do this anymore if, number one, you allow me to remember more than what I'm remembering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		And if you block the fear, because I'm scared to death every time this happens, and if you make me less fearful.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		And they said, okay, we will do that.
unidentified		Really?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And then she removed it.
		And then when she was abducted again, all she remembered was she was scared to death and she doesn't remember anything else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So she was actually able to effect an apparent, I say apparent, concession from her.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, the concession was that she would stop doing it, and then they didn't live up to their bargain.
		But you see, the problem is that you can't live your life like that.
		She can't do this every night.
		She's got a life to live.
		And there's other ways where people have found where they can kind of stop it a little bit.
		But they all intrude so much on a person's life that your life effectively stops.
		But it gives us hope that on an individual basis, this might be stopped in other ways, which is why I say what we need is people who can think seriously about this subject.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we're barely into it.
		We've got one more hour.
		Are you good to go?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know about another hour.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Art, it's 4 o'clock in the morning here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about another half hour?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, half an hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Done deal.
		Half an hour.
		Dr. David Jacobs is my guest.
		talking about abductions.
unidentified		Tuesday afternoon I'm just beginning to see.
		Now I'm on my way.
		It doesn't matter to me, chasing the flowers away.
		Some things call to me.
		The trees are joining in.
		Oh, the white birds.
		Just to page the bird,
		She will die Whitebird must die Oh, she will die The sunsets come The sunsets go The clouds won't lie The earth turns slow The end of its eyes Do always grow And she must die
		Wanna take a ride?
		Well, call our bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
		The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Certainly is.
		Dr. David Jacobs is here, and we're talking about abductions.
		Very serious talk about abductions.
		But Hopkins here in the second hour of the program.
		Listen, here's what I'd like to do.
		I know there are abductees out there, so here's the way I'm going to do it.
		Instead of trying to snag one on the phone line, I'm going to do just the opposite.
		I've got this wonderful thing called Fast Blast.
		You'll find it on the Coast to Coast AM website in the upper left-hand corner.
		You can send a message to me that way.
		And I want to talk to some abductees.
		So if you are an abductee, fast blast me your telephone number and come bottom of the hour.
		I'll call you.
		And we'll get a couple of serious abduction stories to kind of top this night off.
		So make your way to the homepage, coastcoastam.com, hit fast blast, and send me your phone number.
		If you've got a good abduction story, I'll call you.
		We'll get back to David Jacobs in a moment.
		right where you are.
		Dr. David Jacobs, Dr. Straight Out, if this is what you seem to suggest it is on their part, and all of this will unfold not in our favor, then shouldn't somebody like yourself be screaming at the top of their lungs that this should be investigated, that there should be, if there isn't now, military action taken or whatever it would take, because in essence, we're being invaded.
		I mean, that's the right word, isn't it?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it is the right word.
		I think we are involved with an invasion.
		It's not an occupation yet, but it is an invasion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's the most subtle kind of ultimate occupation, though, isn't it?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		It's like, well, I don't know if it's an occupation quite yet.
		I mean, they're here, they're doing their thing, but they're not necessarily giving orders and issuing curfews and that sort of thing, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not now.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Not yet, not yet.
		That's right.
		But, you know, I don't really know how this thing's going to be played out, and maybe it won't be like that, and maybe it will be quite good and all that.
		But it does make me very, very uneasy, and I am filled with anxiety over it.
		And I never used to be.
		I used to think this was the most wonderful thing that had ever happened.
		I used to just be thrilled at the idea of dealing with UFOs.
		And, you know, I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the subject when I was in graduate school.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		How did that go over?
		Well, see, I did it on the controversy over UFOs and didn't address the issue of whether UFOs existed or not, although I kind of assumed that they did in the subtext of this book, which made it different than all other books.
		So I assumed the legitimacy of the subject.
		But I didn't try to decide whether it was real or it wasn't real.
		I just did how the government dealt with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, even at that, how was it received?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		There was a certain amount of resistance to my writing it originally, and then once I finally got it cleared by my major professor, it was okay because it would be only the second dissertation ever published on the subject, and I mean ever written on the subject.
		Although Mike Schutz and Sociology at Northwestern came about with one just a very short time later.
		But now I think there's, gosh, I think there's Like 15 or 17 dissertations published on the subject in some way or another.
		But almost all of them are fairly negative.
		They all think that it's just sociological or psychological, or they try to go to the substratus of UFO research and dig down into the soft underbelly of the flying saucer world and write sociological treaties about the gullibility of people and all that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the International Center for Abduction Research?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is a title of an organization that has more words in it than there actually are members.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would think, though, that the name would imply that they'd be objectively looking at abductions and taking care of those who have experienced them, that sort of thing.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		The problem is this.
		Everything boils down to financing.
		I know that the Center for UFO Studies has had trouble in recent years with money, and the Mutual UFO organization has.
		And membership has been falling off, and people, I think, have become saturated perhaps a little bit with the subject.
		And what we need is really a huge infusion of money and a large number of people to study this.
		And the people follow the money.
		If we could in some way get a benefactor or the National Institute of Health or the National Science Foundation, whatever it is, to begin to give money in the millions as they do for other public health phenomena, then suddenly you're going to get a lot of interest in the subject by a lot of people in the scientific community regardless of the...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of conclusions do you think they might come to?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		That is an excellent question.
		There's no doubt that they can come to the conclusions that I and Bud Hopkins and others have come to, that this is real, it's actually happening, that this has been going on for a long time and that the first manifestations of it were probably the airship wave of 1896 and the Foo Fighters of the 1940s, you know, and the ghost rockets of 46 and then the UFOs after that, and it's all part of the same program.
		But the ultimate question is what can you do about it?
		That's still the ultimate question.
		And for the life of me, I cannot figure out a way to do anything about it.
		I keep thinking maybe there might have been a way back in 1947 if people had ever taken the subject more seriously than they did then.
		But now this program is so far advanced, and these people are so advanced technologically and all that, I really am at a loss as to try to figure out even a strategy for dealing with it, let alone putting something into effect.
		I just don't know.
		I really don't know.
		We need help.
		Bud and I and others are just not enough.
		We need serious people thinking seriously about all aspects of this subject.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And money is the way we, I suppose, get there, right?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Unfortunately, in this society, pure interest means destruction of career.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and at the university level, indeed, destruction of career and possible loss of tenure and everything.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		everything comes crashing down.
		It's not good.
		Right.
		It's not going to happen unless there's money involved.
		With money involved, when a person gets a grant to a university, the university takes part of that money and uses it for, quote, overhead.
		And they use it to help pay the person's salary.
		And it relieves the money pressure on a lot of different levels on the university.
		So everybody wants grants, and it makes them look good, and it makes the universities look good.
		And even a subject like this, with enough money, will look good.
		And suddenly the ridicule over it would stop, and all the negative aspects of it in terms of the society, all the way the society of academics treats it, would stop once the money is there.
		I don't want to be cynical about this, but I've been in academics virtually all my life, and that's the way it works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you can be cynical if you want to.
		That's fine.
		The invasion word is a very strong word, but when I consider everything Bud said, and what he said over the years, and same with you, that's what it adds up to.
		I mean, ultimately, if what you're saying is so, it's a done deal.
		It's just over with and we didn't even notice.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		You know, you might be right, Art.
		I wish I could say to you, oh, no, no, no, it's not a done deal.
		Oh, no, there's plenty we can do.
		But you might be right.
		There really may not be much we can do.
		Maybe I'm just despairing too much.
		Maybe I'm just feeling too frustrated or something.
		But maybe I'm just not smart enough to figure out what can be done, which is certainly more than likely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're smart enough to consider, at least, what others seem to refuse to wish to consider, either because of societal pressure or because I don't know, because somehow it's all a done deal, and we laugh at these things, and we don't pay attention when people tell stories, and we don't even pay attention when we seemingly have proof.
		We just don't pay attention at all.
		So if it's what you say it is, it's going to be a done deal, and there's not going to be a thing we can do about it.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, I've fantasized about what's going to happen in the future and how one of these days I'm going to be proven right and all the rest of that stuff.
		But what I actually think is that if I'm ever proven right, nobody's going to care who said it first.
		They're going to think of only one thing, run.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Well, that's absolutely right.
		I just hope you're wrong, but I have this, I've always had since I talked to you the very first time, I had this nagging, terrible feeling that you were right.
		And again, that goes back to the question I asked at the beginning of the half hour.
		If you really feel you're right, and I can sense you feel that way, even if you're not willing to get out there as strongly as I am, then what about this screaming from the top of the lungs thing?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And the question then is, sure, I can scream from the top of my lungs, and everybody will think I'm crazy and all the rest of that.
		So, of course, they think I'm crazy anyway, but in the end, the question then is, so what?
		So if I do scream and people do take cognizance of it and all that, you know, is it too late?
		Has too much happened?
		Does it really even matter anymore?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a question for you.
		Let's address that.
		It's a little more narrow.
		But it's an interesting question.
		You laid down some timelines for us, how frequently it's happening, the way it multiplies, and the number of years that you think it's been going on based on all of that.
		Is it too late?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, to tell you the truth, I think it is.
		The reason is I think it's too...
		Let's put it this way.
		I really don't know.
		And I tend to think of, you know, an absolute sometimes, but I really don't know.
		However, it's not just that we're late getting started.
		It's that the program is already well established and we are dealing with a very advanced technology and we are dealing with a very advanced physiological being as opposed to just beings who we figured out all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm so glad you said that because another person fastblasted.
		Look, Ard, as these hybrids get older, as they mature, some of them are going to get ill, some of them for various reasons are going to go to a doctor.
		Aren't doctors going to begin to notice a physical change that they can't explain?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, that would happen if they're here on a fairly large scale.
		And I don't think that anybody would say that quite yet.
		The most of the time when I've seen hybrids in my own research, it's been as sort of as Bud has indicated a little bit, although he has other cases I'd indicate differently, but it's been primarily to abduct people.
		And I've had fairly complex hybrid activity here, but still surrounding the abduction of a person.
		Taking a person from her car, having her follow them, taking them to an abandoned base outside of a military base, for example, outside of Washington, D.C. and with another hybrid, and taking a couple of people and abducting them there and so forth.
		And I've had these things, and I've had more complex events happen with hybrids as well.
		But I have yet to have a case, well, I have yet to have more than one case, let's put it this way, of a person who is obviously living here and working here.
		But we should have, if that were the case, we should have like many, many, many, many of these cases already.
		And they're still relatively rare, rare enough so that I don't run across them so much, although Bud might.
		But that's still a rare event.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if there's any kind of difference or development in the medical community that's been observed but not necessarily reported on or anything like that.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And that's an excellent question.
		And what you're dealing with here primarily is doctors who see anomalies in patients that they have never seen before.
		If I had a nickel for every time I heard the phrase, you know, I've never seen it like this before.
		It's the first time I've ever seen this at an abductee, that they told an abductee, I could have retired from temple years ago.
		But the fact is, though, that they don't take it in context.
		All they know is they're looking at the strangest kind of scarring, for example, or a scar pattern that exists on both shoulders of a man in a certain kind of circular pattern with dots forming a design on both sides of his shoulders.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But trained very carefully to think in a certain way they would dismiss any oddity of the pattern.
		They wouldn't be concerned with that.
		They'd be concerned with patching it up.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		They're patching it up, but they'd also be concerned with, look at this, this is the weirdest thing.
		I've never seen anything like this.
		And they might even call in some associates to take a look at it.
		It's just the weirdest thing.
		But what they don't know is that other doctors have seen the same thing and have not written it up.
		And so they're unaware that what they're looking at, in fact, is a pattern of scarring or a pattern, I'm going to just sort of fill in the blank here for what abductees present with, but a pattern of this kind of anomaly that other doctors are seeing too, and they don't realize it's a pattern.
		They just think it's unique.
		That's what we see in physicians.
		For example, anomalous ovarian scarring, which is very common with abductees, because sometimes they'll use instruments to go directly into the ovary and take out follicles, and this causes scarring, and it can lead to sterility because one of the ovaries might be too encrusted with scar tissue to release an egg.
		And this causes obviously awful problems in a person's life.
		And doctors will say, you know, I've never seen scarring like this before.
		It's just amazing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Damn.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Not knowing that many other doctors have all seen the same scarring and also done the same thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another thing with medical professionals, they know, and so do police departments, that rapes are incredibly underreported.
		More of them occur than they even hear about.
		I refer now to the police, for example, medical professionals.
		People just don't report rapes.
		Do you think that abductions probably fall into the same category, that an awful lot of time somebody is either going to doubt their own sanity or the social pressure is going to keep them from reporting it, that they're incredibly underreported?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		And people learn in grammar school to keep their mouths shut.
		Because if they open their mouths and they say, well, these little people have been coming into my room and taking me out to their spaceship and so forth, the teasing starts and it never stops.
		And they become ostracized from their friends.
		And they learn early on, this is something you just don't talk about.
		And they just prefer to put it in the back of their minds and not even think about it.
		And I've had many, many, many people who have been through this route.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then when we're looking at the number of abductions that are occurring, how do we factor that in and come up with a number that might be so?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, when Bud and I did our Roper poll back in 1991, we asked a random sampling of people around the country, a series of questions that abductees answered yes to in very high frequency, and non-abductees answered no to in very high frequency.
		And so we just did a random sampling of 6,000 people, three 2,000-person sweeps.
		The poll was then repeated in 1998, I guess it was, by the Big Little organization.
		And the numbers were slightly different, but it still showed that there was one hell of a lot of people who had very, very strange experiences out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you remember the percentage?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Well, Bud and I, we did not ask the question, have you ever been abducted?
		Because that question people will say no to automatically.
		Because what they've done is they've taken odd things that have happened in their lives and they've slotted them into seeing religious figures or traveling on the astral plane and stuff like that.
		But we know that people who are not abductees say no to these questions in very high frequency and people who are say yes a lot.
		So we were able to extrapolate that a fairly high percentage of the people out there, maybe 6%, 7%, maybe even more, were saying yes to these.
		But we cooked the figures to get them down to 2% because we figured that politically going forward in the media with 5% or 6% was just crazy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're kidding, you actually had to cook the figures the other way because they were much higher than you thought?
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		That is exactly right.
		Actually, I talked a little bit about this in the thread where we broke the poll in half.
		We decided we were only going to accept yes answers to what we call higher indicator questions, which were sort of higher indicator, but not quite.
		And then we refused to accept any people who had answered less than four or all five of the questions positively.
		And you could have answered eight out of the ten questions positively in that poll and not made it to the final statistics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, our time is up.
		Your book, UFOs and Abductions, Challenging the Borders of Knowledge, sounds like some book that somebody ought to run right out and get if they want to know more about what we've been talking about.
		Thank you for being here.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Dart.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have a good rest of the day, Doctor.
david m jacobs ▲ ● ▼		I'll try.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
unidentified		Dr. David Jacobs.
		I've been where the eagle flies, rode his wings across autumn skies, kissed the sun, touched the moon.
		But he left me much too soon.
		is I'm falling down the spiral.
		Destination alone.
		I'm a bad messenger.
		Oh, get no nature.
		Thank you.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach ART at 1-775-727-1222.
		The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to call ART on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bud Hopkins, David Jacobs, Dr. Jacobs, and the subject abductions all night long, so it makes all kinds of sense to turn to you right now, as I'm about to do, and get a couple of real abduction stories coming right up.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Makes sense, doesn't it?
		I've got a couple of people here who claim to have been abducted, and so I thought we'd chat with them and see what they have to say.
		I believe the first one is Peggy.
		Is that correct, Peggy?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Peggy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Bloomington, Indiana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bloomington, Indiana.
		All right.
		Well, first of all, thanks for fast blasting me and letting me know that this is something that's occurred to you.
		What can you tell me?
unidentified		Well, I've had several experiences where I have actually remember actually feeling that people come and take me away, take me out of my bed, and most of those times I Don't remember what happens, except I just remember them taking me away and bringing me back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you're talking, obviously, about multiple occurrences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long has this been?
unidentified		For over a period of several years, maybe even since I was a child.
		I don't know.
		I just have vivid memories of a few of them.
		How old are you now?
		I'm 51.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		51.
		What kind of memories?
		51, that's interesting.
		What kind of memories do you have?
		What are the most vivid of your memories?
unidentified		Okay, well, there's really a couple.
		One is a particular memory I had when they came and took me away.
		I remember what the people looked like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, describe them.
unidentified		Okay, they had these long brown hooded, I guess it looked like a robe or something, went all the way down to their feet and looked like a one-piece garment, hood.
		And their lower bodies were like heavier than their upper body.
		They were like, I don't know, like large behind and thighs.
		And they moved like their knees were permanently bent.
		So instead of like walking, they kind of shuffled and rolled from side to side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And about, it was like about four or five of them that came and took me away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you remember in what manner they came and what manner you left?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, how did it physically occur?
unidentified		They came and picked me up and carried me off, like a gang of them.
		Came and picked me, carried me off.
		And then I don't remember anything after that.
		The next thing I remember is being brought back by the same group and put back in the bed the same way I was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you don't remember a thing that happened to you in between?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you ever considered going to somebody like Dr. Jacobs and being regressed with hypnosis to really find out?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to know what happened to you?
unidentified		Yeah, I have thought about that, but I'm not anywhere near a place where I can do that, you know?
		And it's, you know, one of the things in my mind.
		But I do have a memory of something that happened.
		I'm sure it was aboard an alien craft.
		In this particular instance, I woke up in a place that looked like my bedroom.
		Apparently they had tried to recreate my bedroom in my apartment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how did you know it wasn't your bedroom?
unidentified		Because the door was closed.
		And I never close any of my interior doors.
		And that door was closed.
		And behind the door, there was like a light coming under the door.
		And it sounded like a whole lot of people were in there throwing some kind of party.
		You know, it was like the noise of a party where, you know, you can hear a lot of people talking, but you can't really understand what they're saying.
		And I was, everything in the room was set up to look like my bedroom, but it wasn't.
		And I tried to get up to see what was going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you couldn't move.
unidentified		Couldn't move.
		And then the door opened, and this little guy came in.
		I don't know exactly how to describe him.
		He was extremely ugly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Little guy.
unidentified		Little.
		A little midget, dwarf-looking kind of guy, extremely ugly.
		He might have been a little hybrid you were talking about.
		I don't know.
		But he was just, you know, really misshapen, funny-looking.
		And he had this great big pair of scissors that was almost as big as himself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, great.
unidentified		And he had to hold the handles in both hands, you know?
		And he came right up to where I was, and I was frozen.
		I couldn't get up.
		And I was trying to get up and say, you know, who are you and what are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, so far it's like every Slasher movie I've ever seen, you know?
unidentified		Well, he came at me with those big scissors and shoved them right into my face and put the point right by my third eye and snapped them shut.
		Oh, God.
		No, that's actually what happened.
		And then he sort of like grunted and like he was, you know, he didn't say any words, but his attitude was like he was grunting, saying, so, well, so there.
		You know, and then he just took this inner and walked out the door.
		And the next thing I knew, I was, you know, waking up and, you know, back home, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You haven't fed any babies that you recall?
unidentified		No, not that I recall.
unidentified		I don't even have any children in the real world, so I don't really know, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think you have children elsewhere?
unidentified		i don't know uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		when i don't know here when you hear people like dr david jacobs and uh...
		uh...
		i don't talk about what happens during these abductions surely you must uh...
unidentified		and i must give you a case of the heebie-jeebies because Yeah, it kind of does because I wonder if they did something with me.
unidentified		And really, I think maybe I have just one small flash of a memory where they might have, I was like, You know, that's about all I can remember.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's still quite a bit, Piggy.
		I really appreciate being able to talk to you.
		Thank you very much.
unidentified		Thank you, Art.
unidentified		I really enjoy your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Take care.
		You've got to wonder about people who have vague recollections of perhaps being abducted, and then they begin to hear all of this.
		Is it a sort of a transference of knowledge, a false memory that they acquire, or do they suddenly really begin remembering these things?
		Hello there.
		You're on the air.
		I think this might be Mary, I hope.
		Mary?
unidentified		Yes, this is Mary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, I appreciate putting your number up there so I could call it, Mary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You claim to be an abductee.
unidentified		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What can you tell me of what has happened to you and when you realize it and how long it's been going on and whatever you can give us?
unidentified		Okay, well, I'm from KLBJAM in Austin, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And we're really glad you're back on the air art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, thank you.
unidentified		We've missed you a lot.
		Thank you.
		My father was an international pilot for American Airlines.
		Yes.
		And he flew during The Roswell incident.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		And supposedly a lot of the debris from the Roswell incident was taken to Carswell Air Force Base.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That may well be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How does this fit in with a possible abduction of yourself, Mary?
unidentified		In Fort Worth, Texas.
		Well, it started with my mother.
		And she said that little people came down the hallway and came into her bedroom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She told you this?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		And so what we did was we took the dogs that we kept in the garage and started putting them in the house when dad was gone on flights.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then your abduction, you were abducted?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or just your mother, or did it then begin to happen to you?
unidentified		The first time I remember being abducted was in the summer of 1970 in Austin, Texas.
		I was a student at the University of Texas at the time.
		And the last abduction that I remembered was two days after the first memorial service of 9-11.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell me any of the specifics of any of the abductions that you remember.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell me what you remember about them.
unidentified		The most vivid abduction experience that I feel comfortable sharing in the public.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And Constance Clear was my therapist.
unidentified		She is a known abductee therapist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's obviously a lot you don't want to share in public.
unidentified		Is that correct?
		Well, it's like I've programmed, I've been programmed that if I share it that I'll hurt myself.
		That's the way I was programmed, but I had to work through therapy to be able to get through that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you did say there's a lot, or I guess I read between the lines, obviously there was a lot you didn't want to talk about or couldn't talk about still.
unidentified		Well, I come from a very political family in Texas.
		Yeah.
		And I chose not to talk to protect my family.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do understand that.
		All right.
		Then let's go back to what you can talk about.
		You say there was one you could talk about.
unidentified		Yes, the most vivid one I have is waking up in the middle of the night with light all over in the room and little people standing at the foot of my bed and feeling paralyzed and not being able to get up.
		Then when I was able to get up, I went outside and looked for the light and I couldn't find where it was coming from.
		And there wasn't a moon out.
		There was no moon and there were no clouds in the sky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're the second person to say that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I've heard it from many of this bright light that people can't figure out what it is.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
unidentified		But I'd like to say that the best part of figuring this all out came from Whitley Striber when I read the book Communion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		That was in 1987.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, then here's, I guess, a critical question for you.
		And it goes right back to what I was saying a few moments ago.
		You say a critical part was when you read Communion.
		A lot of people outside the abduction community believe that these are induced memories, that these are things that are sort of, you know, when you read Communion or when you read a book about abductions, suddenly you begin remembering things that didn't really happen.
		Things that you just took from the book.
		What do you say to that?
unidentified		Well, I say, Art, that if you're an abductee and you read the work of another abductee, you know in your heart of hearts that you're reading the truth.
unidentified		That you're reading the truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you're sure there's not some transference that takes place, for example, from what Whitley wrote about what they look like or what they did that suddenly got added to your story?
		I know it's hard to talk about or even consider, but have you objectively considered that?
		You know, these are my thoughts.
		They're not given to me from this book.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		I have thought about that.
		And I drove to San Antonio on a regular basis to see Constance Clear, who is considered to be one of the best therapists on abduction issues.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're trying to get help?
		And why did you do that?
		What did you hope to get from her?
		An understanding of what happened to you?
		Did you want to be regressed?
unidentified		What?
		I wanted to get them to stop abducting me.
		I wanted to get them to stop abducting members of my family.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, yeah, you said in the beginning, and certainly it was underscored by Dr. Jacobs and Bud Hopkins, that this occurs in families.
		People need to understand this.
		You may not be one of them, but it's occurring in generation after generation after generation.
		So how did she help you?
		Did she get them stopped?
		And if so, through what method?
unidentified		She wasn't able to get them stopped.
		And she became fearful.
		So she quit seeing patients in general and went on sabbatical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you talk about this, you sound very emotional.
		Almost ready to cry.
		Is that right?
unidentified		Well, I have a real strong power.
		I have a real strong higher power, and I have a real strong faith in God.
		Yes.
		And God is in charge.
		I might not understand all that's going on, but God is in charge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would almost guess, hazard a guess, that you've asked God to stop it, haven't you?
unidentified		Yes, I have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How's it going so far?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, it hasn't stopped, has it?
unidentified		Well, it's sort of like Paul having a thorn in his side.
		And if you read the New Testament, he asks, well, why did this happen to me?
		And he just goes on with his life spreading the good news.
		So I feel like I've been chosen.
		I feel like I've been chosen to bring out what's going on.
		Just like you've been chosen, art and just like Bud Hopkins.
		And we at least rebrand all of us have been chosen to be the messengers of what's going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, let me try you out.
		Let's try you out on this one then, if you really feel that way.
		David Jacobs is fairly alone in thinking that this might not be so good for us, you know, as in humanity, that the plans and the objectives they have for us and for the human race might not be so good.
		What do you think?
unidentified		Well, in the Old Testament, there's a story in Genesis about the sons and the daughters.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what you think is going to be shaped from what's in the Bible?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		Uh-huh.
		And my own personal experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And your own personal experience.
		No, that's all right.
		So you think that this is all part of some greater plan?
unidentified		Well, we'll see.
		In my religious faith, we talk about whenever we come across a problem that needs to be solved, we look for tradition within the church.
		We look for experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that's what you do with your experience.
unidentified		And we go to scripture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We go to scripture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We clearly understand that you do.
unidentified		And we look for what the saints in the past have brought forth on how to deal with certain situations.
unidentified		And one of the ways that you do, you come to the tradition is to do a lot of research on this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in the end, though, it's just.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so you've just got to keep the faith is what you've got to do through all of this is what you conclude, right?
unidentified		One of the ways I keep the faith art is I listen to you and I am so glad you're back on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you.
		But that really boils down to it for you, right?
		You keep the faith.
		You believe this is part of a greater plan, and if it's going on, then it's going on because God is letting it go on.
		And it's all part of some greater plan, right?
unidentified		Yes, and for any abductees who are having memories come up, I would like to say that you can go to a website for more information, and that's unknowncountry.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's Whitley Streeber's website.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		You don't have to live this alone, that there's help out there, that we're here to help you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very, very, very much for calling and relating all of that to us.
		Now, boy, was that classic or what?
		Wow.
		We actually discussed that in the last couple of hours with Bud and David, and that is that people relate to these abduction experiences in their own way.
		And if your way is like this young lady's, Mary's, and it's a religious background, then your brain is going to reach out to your religion and your faith and what you believe in order to give you a way psychologically to deal with what's happening to you.
		And if that's what people are doing in their way of dealing with this, personally, for them, it's fine.
		But I'm not so sure what it means for the human race.
		If you take Dr. Jacob's view that they may be out to change everything we are, everything we stand for, all of our institutions will not be theirs when we're part of them.
		Hmm Hmm If you buy off on all of that, well, then you just heard a classic example in Mary of why we're not hearing about it and why it may be all over already.
		Well, that'll do it for tonight.
		That's all the time I have.
		So this was fascinating.
		We'll be back tomorrow night when we'll be discussing little tiny things at the molecular level.

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