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Sept. 27, 2003 - Art Bell

02:50:17

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - UFOs and Alien Abductions - David Jacobs

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	Music Playing...
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good afternoon, good morning,
	whatever the case may be, wherever you may be in the world, in all those time zones out there.
	I'm out.
	I'm Art Bell, and this, of course, is Coast to Coast AM weekend version, and it's going to be a very, very interesting program tonight.
	In a moment, Jose Escamilla and I, right now at the beginning of the program, I want to tell you why.
	You need to go to the Coast to Coast AM website right now.
	And, uh, in the upper right-hand corner... I think it's the upper right-hand corner.
	Guess I'd better check.
	Well, anyway, it's the upper right-hand corner.
	It'll have Jose's name.
	And, uh, you'll see a site listed, uh, called ufotheatre.com.
	And the reason I'm bringing Jose on is because, well, gee, for years, a few years, Jose did some remarkable, incredible photography of something that he called rods.
	Rods, which, I don't know, could certainly be, as I thought them to be, some sort of living matter that was sharing our space with us, and that they were able to be photographed in the manner that Jose photographed them.
	During the week, I ran into this UFO theater.
	Some listener out there sent it to me and said, I guess this about wraps up the case for Rothbard.
	And so I went to the website and took a look.
	And that website is listed up there.
	And I heartily encourage you to go up and take a look just before we begin this conversation.
	There's a series of photographs.
	And by the way, right on the site, they say, we are not skeptics, nor do we wish to promote anything except the truth.
	We know unidentified flying objects exist.
	However, we believe that rods have been identified, and they then proceed to prove their case in a series of photographs that when I talked to Jose the other day, and of course he was being at the center of all this, he was very much familiar with the fact the site existed, had seen it, and his words were, quote, yes, it's pretty damning.
	I thought I'd bring him on, and so we will do that shortly.
	In the next hour, we're going to have David Jacobs here, who I really, really, really like.
	David has a new book out, and David is actually one of the only ufologists that I'm aware of That in his book, The Threat, and that's basically, believe it or not, why I wanted to have him back on tonight.
	I have always believed, and I continue to believe now, that they are here, as it were.
	I think they are.
	And David Jacobs thinks they may not be friendly.
	He wrote a book called The Threat.
	And of all the ufologists that I talk to, I'm telling you right now, David is the only one who ever I've never had the temerity to write such a thing that they might not be our friends, and that has always intrigued me.
	And so I wanted to have him back on tonight.
	He's got a new book called UFO Abductions, Challenging the Borders of Knowledge.
	And then, just about an hour before airtime, I got a call from Bud Hopkins.
	Yes, Bud Hopkins, who said, Hey Art, what's the chance of getting on with David at the beginning of the, you know, that spot when you do David Jacobs?
	And, uh, I said, well, sure, Bud.
	Let me ask David.
	And I did, and he said, fine.
	So, David Jacobs, along with Bud Hopkins, in the next hour.
	Should be very interesting.
	Um, World News, what's going on?
	Well, here's some scuttlebutt.
	And that's, at this hour, that's all it is, is scuttlebutt.
	It could be wrong.
	I had a friend on, uh, Ham Radio.
	I said, hey, Art, I just saw on Fox News that the entire country of Italy Just lost power.
	And I talked briefly with a Whitley Strieber who said, you know Art, I've heard a lot of scuttlebutt word he used.
	That there could be some sort of terrorist action with regard to power.
	Just scuttlebutt.
	In fact, the whole story of Italy losing power could at this hour be scuttlebutt.
	I don't know, but thought I would mention that to you.
	Could be incorrect.
	President Bush and Russian President Vladimir Putin On Saturday, urged Iran and North Korea to abandon their suspected nuclear weapons programs, but disagreed with how to deal with both countries.
	Putin also declined to pledge any post-war help for Iraq.
	Guerrillas struck a glancing but bold blow at the heart of the U.S.
	occupation on Saturday in Iraq, firing three rockets or grenades at a Baghdad hotel filled with American soldiers and civilians.
	And by the way, I thought this was kind of neat.
	I got the following email from Baghdad.
	Baghdad, Iraq.
	Dear Mr. Bell, I'm sorry that I was a little slow on the uptake with this news, but the news out there is a little slow at times in Iraq.
	I just wanted to say welcome back and that we are out here rooting for you and trying to figure out how to tune you in over here with all this camo Stuff out here.
	We might just find a way to tune you in.
	SPC Sean Page in Baghdad.
	So there you are.
	The California election debacle goes on.
	Recall.
	Whatever.
	Concerned about spoiler candidates on the left and right, Governor Gray Davis and Arnold Schwarzenegger have moved quickly in the last few days to portray the race as a head-to-head contest.
	And this item caught my attention.
	The office phone number of a federal judge who ruled last week that a national do-not-call registry is unconstitutional, get this, was among the thousands already on the list.
	So the judge who ruled it was unconstitutional, I put himself on the do-not-call list.
	Nevertheless, thought it was unconstitutional.
	Let's see, his number was added in July to the registry.
	Designed to block telemarketers.
	How do you handle those, by the way?
	Do you hang up on them?
	Do you listen to their spiel and say no thank you?
	You know, in the beginning you tend to be polite because people, most generally, are polite on the telephone.
	But not always.
	I wonder how you handle those kinds of calls.
	In a moment, Jose Escamilla, I hope you're getting a chance to look at this website.
	There's a link right up there, so you take a good look, because we're about to talk about it.
	Sound of a rocket launching.
	Asking ye shall receive, I guess.
	Thank you very much for the fast blast link.
	Rome, Italy, indeed.
	Power went out across Italy before dawn.
	Police and news reports said, plunging the nation into darkness.
	Authorities did not immediately know the cause.
	Reports of power outages began to come in around 4 a.m.
	local time in Rome, where the city was celebrating an all-night party with museums and restaurants open around the clock.
	Wow!
	Later, the National Electricity Company, ACEA, said power was out across the nation.
	As far as we know, quoting an official, it's out all across Italy, and we don't know the cause yet.
	So that's the CNN story of the moment.
	And again, I want to thank somebody on Fastblast for sending that link to me, that CNN link.
	That was Phil in Nashville, Tennessee.
	Thank you, Phil.
	So what was sort of scuttlebutt is now officially confirmed.
	Whether it is terrorist-related, obviously, they'd have no idea.
	Now, on to the subject of rods.
	Once again, I really thought that Jose Escamilla had something there, and I still think he may.
	But I also tend to think that the website, UFOtheatre.com, kind of blows it out of the water.
	And again, Jose's quote was, well, yes, it's pretty damning.
	Here is Jose Escamilla.
	Hey, buddy.
	Hey, Art.
	How are you?
	I'm all right.
	It's good to have you on.
	Hey, it's good to be back, man.
	It's good to have you back on the air, too.
	Thank you.
	I know you worked for years and years on the whole R.O.D.S.
	concept, and so you were certainly familiar, obviously, when I talked to you the other day, yesterday, with this website.
	And as you go through the photographs that are here, Jose, you know, I agree with your comment.
	I think it is kind of Damning.
	As you go through the photographs, there is no question about the fact that what they have here are rods.
	Exactly.
	Well, they're insects emulating rods.
	Well, let me tell you something.
	I said it's pretty damning evidence there.
	But you have to look at what they're doing here.
	They're setting up a camera at night.
	Yes.
	That means they have to set up a low shutter setting in order to capture anything that moves At night, under extreme low light.
	Right.
	All right?
	Right.
	Now, what is the biggest thing that I've always maintained?
	I've been on your show many, many times, many years.
	I've always said, look, I set up a shutter setting called the Sky Fishing Protocol that eliminates insects emulating and birds emulating rods.
	If you shoot a low shutter setting, whether you shoot at night or during the day, you will get insects that will resemble rods.
	And I've maintained this for many, many years.
	That's why I created the Sky Fishing Protocol.
	And yeah, it looks damning.
	I mean, you know, insects do look like rods.
	But when you shoot at the highest shutter settings that I've, you know, I set up the sky fishing protocol for one reason, one reason only, that's to eliminate the kind of websites that you're seeing right now.
	These guys are barely touching ground that I covered back in 1994, 1995.
	Well, the part of it that I think rocked my world a little bit, Jose, Were the pictures where they actually compared the photographs on roswellrods.com to what they've got here, and some of them are simply, they're not close, they are rods.
	They're rods as you depict.
	They're very similar as we depict them, but we also have high shutter setting rod footage that, look, these things are at high shutter settings, they're rods, and when you get an insect at the high shutter setting protocol that I've set.
	The sky fishing protocol.
	And I always tell people, shoot a broad daylight, man.
	You know, night time you're going to have to give up the high shutter settings that cameras are instilled with nowadays.
	They're making the case, though, and by the way, this Brian Besant, I made my best attempt to get hold of him, sent several emails, tried to find a number for him in San Sabo, Texas.
	Couldn't find one.
	The only one on the web was disconnected.
	So I couldn't get hold of the photographer who took these, but he maintains That the curvature of the lens, all lenses that would do this kind of work, Jose, would produce the effect.
	Yeah, well, you know, Art, I beg to differ on that.
	And, you know, I said it's damning, it's very damning evidence there.
	But, you know, they're doing nighttime stuff and they're doing low shutter setting stuff, which I covered back in 94.
	I'll reiterate.
	When you shoot at high shutter settings in broad daylight, a rod is a rod, an insect is an insect.
	You can tell an insect.
	It will not show the rod shape that you see at night time in low shutter settings.
	Well, right now a lot of my listeners are going through these photographs and trying to probably make up their own minds.
	I mean, when they have gone through them, what do you think they're going to conclude after seeing this?
	Well, what they're going to look at right now is low shutter setting insects shot under a light.
	Right.
	Man, you could run your hand in front of the camera and it'll look like a freaking rock because it's not going to capture the true essence of what's happening in front of the lens.
	Now, one thing that this guy, Brian, whatever his name is, you know, he claims, well, we're not debunkers and this, that and the other.
	Well, that's fine.
	But, you know, he never contacted me.
	Well, you know, sit down and look at the evidence that we have.
	We have other stuff.
	I think to be fair, you know what I did?
	I went back to the mother website and I looked and they're not debunkers.
	I mean, they're really, More ufologists, frankly, than they are debunkers.
	If you want to be true ufologists, then they should really come down and sit with me and go through every frame of video that I have.
	So you would invite him to do exactly that?
	I have always invited everyone, Art.
	I am not in here to try to pull the wool over people's eyes, much less make a total ass of somebody.
	Well, no, but there is one possibility you've got to acknowledge, Jose, and that is that While you may be dead on, and they may be everything you say they are, there's also the possibility that Besant and company might be correct.
	You know, they are correct in low shutter shooting.
	I've already covered that ground.
	I've mentioned it many, many, many times on your show, on other television shows, and radio shows.
	If you shoot at low shutter setting, you're going to get fooled.
	You're going to think you see something, but it's not the real deal.
	That's why I developed the sky fishing protocol.
	All right, then.
	How about this question?
	Why do you think that even at the low shutter speeds that we've got here, why would you imagine that what is an insect comes out looking so incredibly like a rod?
	Man, I went through that in 1994.
	Well, go through it now.
	I went through it and then I said, OK, you know, first time I videotaped rods.
	Back in March 19th, 1994, you can hear me on the camera.
	I was looking at these things in the viewfinder.
	Right.
	And I said, oh, that's a bug, that's a bird, that's a bug, that's a bird.
	I was shooting at 1-2000 shutter setting, which was the highest shutter setting available on cameras at that time.
	And it wasn't until I went back and started looking at the footage frame by frame that I saw insects passing by, and you could see the legs, the antennae, and the wings flapping.
	You can see the birds, and then these things that were blurring, they were elongated things flying.
	That was a high shutter setting.
	Now, maybe, perhaps, we were filming things that are going so fast that even at the high shutter setting... Yes, exactly.
	The same artifact became present.
	It became present, but it wasn't an insect.
	It wasn't a bird.
	It was something else.
	So, okay.
	Maybe we did overstep something, but we've done tests.
	Believe me, Art.
	I've got stuff and I'm, you know, I hurriedly put up a page right now.
	You can go on the website and there's the Insectaries.
	I've got footage up there that's pretty damning itself.
	I mean, it explains... In what sense?
	In the sense that I've got a rod shot in real-time video.
	That means it was shot by a cameraman in Sweden at an army airbase and he was shooting with a high-end beta camera, whatever.
	Right.
	And there was a tank shooting shells.
	This tank shoots off around.
	The guy sits down.
	This rod comes into frame from a far off distance.
	It's not a bug close to the lens.
	It's not a camera artifact.
	Not a lens artifact.
	And there are a few things that you have to address on CCD artifacts, too.
	But we'll go into that later.
	This thing flies by as slow as a bird does.
	It's not an insect.
	It's not a bird.
	It's a rod.
	And I mean, we have stuff, you know, we have rods coming in and out of the ocean.
	We've got stuff, NASA footage of rods entering Earth.
	Well, you know, there's been nobody that's been more of a booster of yours than me.
	I know.
	A big booster.
	I know.
	And you know what?
	You know, this is not fair for you, Art, because you know what?
	You haven't had my latest DVD.
	I need to send you this footage so you can see exactly what we've been talking about.
	Well, no, but of course, as you well know, I've seen a gazillion rods and photographs and video footage that you've shot.
	And when I got down to this photograph that he presents called, They Are All Rods Now, I looked at it and I said, Damn!
	I know!
	And when I talked to you last night, I go, Art, that's damning, you know, evidence.
	But there's a thin line here.
	You know, these guys are shooting at low shutter setting intentionally.
	They are not going out and doing the field test we've done for years, believe me.
	But the worrying thing is that it produces the same kind of artifact.
	That's what caught me.
	It produces the same kind of artifact.
	Exactly.
	And I've said this, and I've said it over and over again.
	Look, if you shoot a low shutter setting, you're going to get insects and birds that emulate rods.
	Well, how does an insect turn into, he's got classic rod circled here, how does an insect turn into I can't imagine how it morphs into a classic RON.
	Well, first of all, you have very little information coming into the CCD at night.
	Number one.
	Okay.
	You're illuminating things that are flying, zipping around, such as insects, and there's very little information, graphically, basically, coming into the CCD.
	So the CCD, you have to set it at the very lowest shutter setting possible, and what that does is it does not give you the true window Of the imagery that you're looking at.
	Okay, okay.
	You're looking at a blurred image because you'll never get a clean, clear image as if you were shooting in broad daylight using a high shutter setting.
	That part I've got.
	Yeah.
	Believe me, I could, and I've done camera tests.
	I've got a camera setting set up on my website right now.
	I set up a page called proof.html.
	It's right there.
	You can go in there.
	It says the Rod Insects Theory.
	I didn't have time to get all this together because I'm busy putting together my new network and other things.
	Yeah, go ahead and tell us about that, by the way.
	Okay.
	Listen.
	One of the things that's been my gripe has been, okay, I've been on about three TV specials.
	Fox TV has been airing a TV special overseas on Rod's.
	Yes.
	And they always leave out the gut.
	I mean, they do a sensational job of presenting the stuff.
	And I said, you know, it's time to set up my own network, or our own network, where we can have a venue where we can present our evidences.
	The way they should deserve to be presented.
	So I've created a thing called the Borderlands Network.
	Yes.
	I've spent all my money on putting together a public company.
	Next year we're going to go public, and it's going to be the very first all-paranormal network.
	From now on, when you tune into the Borderlands Network on any satellite, dish network, or direct TV, you're going to see everything that's paranormal.
	Well, that's pretty cool.
	It's got to happen.
	I mean, this is the next step because The argument that we're having right now with these people would not happen if I would have been allowed to present my goods in the right perspective.
	Well, I'm not as sure.
	The networks have not allowed me to.
	You see, I'm not as sure about that, Jose.
	I look at the photograph and I try to ask myself, all right, look, how, and I did before I even called you on the phone, I said, how, I understand that there can be differences at lower shutter speeds, but what I don't understand how is how the artifact can become an exact Rod.
	An exact rod.
	And maybe even at higher shutter speeds.
	At higher shutter speeds, you're not going to get that effect.
	But when you do get a rod... But you did... Wait a minute.
	A minute ago you said maybe, maybe on a certain... with a fast enough moving object, even with a faster lens speed, you would get that effect.
	Well yeah, but it's got to be a very tremendous, you know, an object that's traveling at tremendous speed that would blur.
	At that shutter setting.
	All right, hold on, Jose.
	I don't know.
	I hope you all will go up there and take a look and decide for yourself.
	Rods, real or not?
	Maybe not.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm going to be doing a video on the new AMC Airbus A320.
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033. First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222 and
	the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295. To reach out on the toll-free international
	line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 811.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	This song is English, French, and African.
	It's pretty unusual stuff and obviously a favorite of the producers of a program called Dead Like Me, which is a favorite program of mine.
	And so that's how I picked up on it.
	Pretty wild stuff, huh?
	If you ever get a chance during the summer reruns, they just had their last show, check out Dead Like Me with George.
	It's a pretty neat show.
	In the meantime, we're talking about Rods with Jose Escamilla, and I urge you to get up to the website and take a look at what UFOtheater.com has presented and, you know, decide for yourself, bearing in mind what Jose said about The shutter speed and all of that.
	I don't know.
	They sure do look like rock.
	We'll be right back.
	You know, there is so much odd stuff going on in our world that I feel a tremendous responsibility to report to you.
	And I think that's how the whole show began, the whole program began.
	The things that the regular networks will not report to you.
	They just won't talk about it.
	And if they do, as Jose has suggested, they'll leave the meat out or whatever.
	It's rare enough they get to report on them at all, and then when they do, why, they leave out perhaps the most important parts.
	And so that's what this is all about.
	We explore areas of the paranormal.
	However, when something comes along that legitimately challenges something we have presented and perhaps believe to be true, certainly it seemed that way with regard to rods.
	It looked like another species of life coexisting with us.
	That's not a trivial matter, so I had Jose on a lot of times to talk about it.
	to coexist with some other form of life and to barely know about it except for
	the turn of a lens or something but if then there's something wrong with it
	there's a responsibility on our part i feel to discuss that as well that's why jose is here uh... jose
	welcome back again i i i just want to get one more time
	and maybe you can explain it to me uh... if they don't know that we would let me talk about it
	and that is that while i understand they're different shutter speeds
	what i do not uh... what i cannot grasp
	is the fact that these are
	In other words, as unlikely a shape as rods are likely to have.
	They are very individualistic and pretty wild, but God, Jose, these are not Blurred insects.
	These are, well I guess they are blurred insects, but I mean they're also rods in right down to the most minute detail that's pretty hard to get past.
	Yeah but you know I've got footage of from that you know nap shuttle footage of rod in space
	i met with them picked up their unless that's a camera to captain
	well there are there are there are and then we got a different problem but
	there are little things that fly around in space i mean like yeah i mean so
	emulator ron shape i mean i i don't think master would spend
	hundreds of millions of our dollars to come up with bogus cameras ok how do i
	how do we settle this how do it what they've done here is pretty convincing
	what you've done well i would have a convincing uh... how do we settle it
	uh... would do we get we finally somehow find this mysterious uh... brian
	besant and getting together with you and have you both have both do photography at different speeds and different times of day or how do we sell it?
	That's fine with me let's do it but you know let's not just go over there and do what I already did back in 94 and you know what Art I kind of maybe should have put in shoulda woulda coulda I shoulda put in okay these are the insect tests and everything else okay here's an insect and I did that actually I did that since 1994 I showed people If you do this, this is what an insect looks like.
	As a matter of fact, I've got a clip on my website under proof.html, you know, insect theories.
	You'll see exactly what I'm talking about.
	We've got rods coming in and out of the oceans.
	We've got rods coming in and out of space.
	Did you ever show any footage when you were doing the early insect things that was as clearly a rod as what they're showing here?
	At that time, yes.
	You know, an insect became a rod.
	A bird became a rod.
	Okay?
	At the low shutter settings.
	He writes on his website, there is a reason that nobody has ever found a dead rod or a captured one.
	And what's that reason that he says?
	Well, it goes unsaid here.
	It's obviously the aforementioned photographic evidence that he's put up here.
	Okay, well... It don't exist, that's why.
	Well, yeah, but that's one opinion.
	And that's one-sided opinion because he has not come forward.
	He's not sat down here and looked at all the evidence that we have here.
	And we have more evidence, you know, of ours.
	There's a lot of stuff that we didn't release to the public, you know, and there's a reason behind that.
	It's because we have... Why?
	Well, number one, we have a lot of evidence here that we're still mulling over.
	We've got, like I said, we've got stuff from NASA.
	That's pretty incredible stuff.
	We've got rods flying in in V formations into Earth.
	Okay, now, Years ago, if I would have said, well, you know, Roger from outer space, and this, that, and the other, I'd be a total wack.
	No, you never said that.
	All right, never said that.
	But we're finding more and more evidence.
	I mean, I've been talking to Martin Stubbs, you know, the guy that did the NASA cameras.
	Oh, now, wait a minute now.
	You're leaning towards suggesting that is where you think they might be from.
	We don't know.
	But I guarantee you that we've got footage of these things.
	The same thing that you're seeing in low shutter setting and high shutter setting, you're seeing in outer space captured by NASA cameras.
	Okay, they got the little winglets, they got the sinusoidal wave motion of the membrane, they're coming into Earth, and we've got that kind of footage, all right?
	And it's like, what are we dealing with here?
	But you are willing to meet with this Mr. Peasant, and under the right circumstances, do some joint photography and investigation?
	Yes, by all means.
	I did it with Fox TV.
	We set up five cameras at different shutter settings.
	Rods flew through, insects flew through, birds flew through.
	We got rods, we got insects, we got birds.
	Alright, well it's been a long time since I have spoken to you, so let me ask you this.
	Is there any recent breaking news about rods?
	And what you believe them to be that would help us.
	I mean, we've always asked, well, what are they?
	What do they want?
	What are they doing here?
	A million questions.
	Why no one's ever found one?
	Is there anything new in the rod world as you see it?
	Well, we do believe that they do have a cycle in the water.
	They do have a life cycle in the water.
	We've got evidence of them entering the ocean and coming out of the ocean.
	We also have footage taken by Eye in the Sky Productions, a guy named Larry Addison.
	He used to work for the Henson Muppets show.
	Right.
	He's been filming aviation videos, not even related to rods.
	He's captured some incredible rods flying past airplanes on the other side of these planes.
	I had some Bearcat footage that he was going to send me and I was going to put it on the website tonight, but I haven't received it yet.
	But the thing is, Art, the bottom line is, look, ground already covered, and insects can emulate rods.
	Like I told you, damning evidence.
	But you know, there's a lot more to it than this.
	Boy, these are right on the money.
	I mean, it's not like they're close.
	These are right on the money.
	The little delicate memories.
	And we have a high shutter setting doing the same thing.
	So what do we have here?
	We have footage of rods in high shutter settings with insects and dragonflies and birds.
	So what are we dealing with here?
	So, you know, if it's a camera CCD, Artifact, and you know, Sony and a lot of other camera people have to recall their cameras because there's a defect.
	They're not giving us true... Well, I'm not sure this is something that bothers the average person taking, you know, pictures of the family picnic, so... That's why I told people don't shoot at normal or auto setting because you're going to get the wrong thing.
	Shoot at the highest shutter setting.
	Get your manual out.
	I mean, I've drilled it over and over again.
	And believe me, rods become rods.
	Insects become insects.
	Birds become birds.
	All right.
	All right.
	I welcome these guys.
	Let's do it.
	Okay, Jose.
	Listen, I want to thank you for coming on tonight.
	I really, really appreciated it.
	I wanted to get your words on it.
	We'll follow up from here, okay?
	Let's do it.
	All right, my friend.
	Take care.
	Thank you, Alex.
	All right, that's Jose Escamilla, and he has maintained for years that there's something called rods, and these rods are not photographic anomalies.
	They're not bugs.
	They are a real life form coexisting with us here on earth.
	If you go to the website, www.coasttocoastam.com, you'll see the link up there for this website.
	I would urge you to take a look and decide for yourself.
	That's the easiest thing, I think, to do is to decide for yourself.
	They've got a step-by-step photographic layout here, which just takes you right through it And, uh, right down to where things become rods.
	Yes, granted, at the shutter speeds they were using, but, um, as I maintain to Jose, gosh, I look at these, and you look at the delicate membranes, and the things that are so-called rods, and baby, these are the same things.
	These are rods.
	These are rods.
	All right, since we've got, uh, coming up at the top of the hour, uh, Bud Hopkins, And David Jacobs.
	David Jacobs was due to be the guest for the evening, but Bud called at the last moment.
	He's got a new book, by the way, called Sight Unseen.
	And as you know, he's been deeply involved for probably most of my adult lifetime, as has David Jacobs in the abduction research phenomena area that he's very welcome on.
	Now, in light of that, at the top of the hour, I Received earlier in the week something from Bill Hamilton with regard to his conclusions about the Greys.
	And I think this is really interesting stuff.
	He says, I've been doing some analysis of reports of the EBEs known as Greys.
	There seems to be more than one type, but observations are insufficient to do a full taxonomy.
	Here are some of the speculative inferences based on these general observations and reports.
	This is really interesting stuff.
	I think that abductions have occurred, and I think they are real, and I think we are being visited, and what you're about to hear about these creatures I think is worth your digesting and listening very careful to.
	How about that?
	With regard to graves, they had is large by human standards.
	The inference here, more brain capacity.
	In other words, they might be smarter than we are.
	The eyes are generally slanted, large, and black.
	You've seen the pictures, right?
	Slanted, large, and black.
	Inference, eyes probably gather more light than humans.
	Inverse, dimmer sun and thinner atmosphere.
	Interesting.
	Infers dimmer sun that they live in a system with a dimmer sun and thinner atmosphere.
	The nose is usually vague.
	Two small nares are visible.
	Inference here?
	A thinner atmosphere.
	That would make sense as well, wouldn't it?
	If you begin to consider, we're trying to consider who they are and where they might be from and every bit of information we can infer from their appearance.
	Mouth is indicated by a small slit without lips.
	The mouth appears to be non-functional.
	Inference.
	Thin atmosphere may not support sounds very well.
	Natural selection may have given gray EBE small mouth and ears.
	No teeth in the mouth cavity.
	Inference here.
	Does not masticate food for source of nutrients.
	The body and the head are completely hairless.
	Inference here.
	Hairless bodies may indicate warmth even though the air is thin.
	Could be warm because planet is close to the sun or grays do not live above ground.
	Hmm.
	Torso is described as small and thin.
	Often covered in a metallic garment.
	Inference here.
	Indicates a weak gravity field consistent with a thin atmosphere and the short stature.
	Did not develop strong muscles to counteract gravity.
	Interesting, huh?
	Let's see.
	Arms are long and thin and reach to the knees.
	Inference here, arms made for reaching, not lifting.
	We're talking about the difference between ourselves here and the greys.
	Reports of the fingers vary from three to four long webbed and possibly with a claw or fingernail.
	The legs are short and thin.
	Most reports of the feet say that they are covered.
	Inference here may be able to run or move rapidly in a weak gravity field, but lung capacity could be small and thin air may be more conductive, conducive to slower movements.
	The brain is larger than ours and has more than two lobes, possibly three.
	The third lobe is thought to be used for telepathic communication.
	Skin description ranges from light tan to pasty gray color.
	Texture is described as scaly or reptilian in nature.
	No muscles or skeletal structure is visible.
	No external reproductive genital possible reproduction by cloning method.
	So they don't have genitals as we understand them, and the answer may be that the only way they reproduce is that field that we're rapidly approaching now called cloning.
	The entrance, obviously, may be genetically engineered entities designed to operate in space.
	Designed to operate in space.
	Isn't that interesting?
	One of the main problems that NASA and the human race face in terms of trying to make long space trips, even to Mars, is the fact that human beings are not designed to live in space.
	Our muscles begin to atrophy, our body begins to sort of fall apart, frankly, being in space.
	That's what occurs.
	And they have various methods of exercise, even for our astronauts who are in low Earth orbit.
	Lest their muscles begin to atrophy and you begin to have heart problems and all the rest of it when you try to return to an atmosphere.
	When you try to return, well, to gravity.
	No discernible digestive tract found, but a two-piece organ that seems to be a combined heart and lung organ.
	Digestive functioning is believed to be through the skin in some sort of form of osmosis.
	The inference again, a thin atmosphere, no lung capacity, needs pressure to absorb nutrients.
	Bill Hamilton wrote that 3-19-2002.
	Those inferences you may draw based on the collective renderings of people who have seen these grey creatures, people who have been abducted or had harm, Or good, from their point of view, I suppose, done to them by these great creatures, but there are some inferences about what they are, what they might be.
	Now, the years of doing this program have led me to certain conclusions.
	I have talked with people who have been the victims of abduction.
	Travis Walton, Many other, Betty Hill, I've had, you know, it's interesting, I've had long conversations with the now, I might note, rather ill, being treated for cancer, Betty Hill, Benny and Barney Hill, and many others who have been abducted, abduction researchers, people who have been doing this sort of thing all their lives, and or looking into it, or been the subject of abductions,
	And it's not possible to come out of all of this without some belief that something, some group, somebody is here with us.
	And they're here for some indiscernible reason.
	Now, one thing Bill Hamilton is not able to come up with as a report or an inference is why they're here.
	We have no idea.
	The best guesses seem to have something to do with our genetics, or perhaps their genetics, or maybe both!
	Right?
	It may well be they need some sort of genetic help from us.
	I don't know.
	So I have no reason to have a belief system regarding why they are here.
	It's one of the very important questions, but I think why they are here is almost a bar that we have now passed.
	They are here.
	All of these reports, many of them withheld, military radar sightings, sightings by credible people that I've been able to interview over the years, firemen, policemen, trained observers of all kinds, even the pilots!
	When you get an opportunity to really get one to open up and talk to you, try it yourself sometime.
	I'm sure some of you know pilots.
	Get them in a quiet mood if you happen to have a friend who's a commercial pilot, something like that.
	You would think, well, most commercial pilots over all the years and hundreds of if not millions of miles that they've traveled would have seen these things if they're really out there, right?
	Answer is, a lot of them have.
	Even most of them.
	But they don't like to talk about it.
	So if you get the opportunity to get a pilot that you know on some sort of friendly basis, sit him down, get him in a good mood, Perhaps ply him with whatever it takes, and get him to tell you stories, because when you do, you're going to find out these pilots have seen things.
	And so I think that bar is passed, folks.
	I think they are out there, and they are interacting with us, sometimes in not very pleasant ways.
	And I'm not one of those warm, fuzzy people who would tell you that I think that they're here for our good, or to pull our fat out of the fire.
	And as far as they're concerned, we may be nothing more than ants worthy of a good hard stomp.
	I have no idea.
	But one, it seems to me, is as likely as the other.
	You're going to hear a lot about it tonight because coming up in a moment, David Jacobs and a surprise visit by Bud Hopkins.
	from the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Be it sight, sound, smell, or touch, there's something inside that we need so much.
	Oh my gosh.
	The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sand, or the strength of an oak when it moves deep in the ground.
	The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
	Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
	To lie in a meadow and hear the grass stink And all these things in our memories haunt
	And they use them to help us to fight Fight
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	You're on a ride, all right, in the nighttime, and I'm Art Bell.
	Good evening.
	We've got two of the world's premier investigators into the world of abductions and just exactly who these aliens are.
	I give you a list of sort of inferences drawn by Bill Hamilton with regard to their description about what it might mean about them.
	A planet, perhaps, with a sun that doesn't give them a lot of sun.
	A planet without a whole lot of atmosphere, perhaps.
	Lots of inferences that can be drawn from the descriptions of the greys, which clearly I think we've just about passed the bar with regard to whether they are here or not.
	They are here.
	The question is why and what do they want?
	Maybe some of the answers tonight, you never know.
	Dr. David Jacobs, PhD, is an associate professor of history at Temple University, specializing in 20th century American history and culture.
	He began researching the controversy over unidentified flying objects in America in the mid-1960s, and has amassed over 35 years of primary research data.
	An analytical hypothesis on the subject, Dr. Jacobs has written and delivered many articles, papers, and addresses on the subject of UFO abduction, and has been a consultant to the major UFO organizations.
	In recent years, he's concentrated on ascertaining the proper methodological techniques for the hypnosis and therapy of abductees.
	So, he's right and square in the middle of all of this, and a surprise tonight!
	Calling us up just prior to air time, the one and only Bud Hopkins, who became first interested, I believe, in the UFO phenomena when he and two others had a daylight UFO sighting near Truro, Massachusetts, I guess it is, in 1964 and 75.
	He carried out his first major investigation, which involved A UFO landing, an occupant incident in North Hudson Park, New Jersey.
	Shortly thereafter, he began to concentrate on the investigation of the UFO abduction phenomena, which led to the eventual publication of his findings.
	His most recent book, just out, in fact, is a book called Sight Unseen.
	In a moment, Dr. David Jacobs and of course, Bud Hopkins.
	Maybe the only guy I've ever met who's got the colonies to say,
	hey, maybe these are not friendly beings at all.
	to say, hey, maybe these are not friendly beings at all.
	Here is Dr. David Jacobs.
	Dr. Jacobs, welcome back.
	Well, thank you, Art, and welcome back to you.
	And have somebody of your stature, and then I push up the other button here, and Bud Hopkins, I think.
	Bud, hey.
	Hi there, how are you, Art, and Dave.
	So here we are with two of the world's best people looking into abduction.
	So I've got, gee, a million questions.
	Congratulations on your new book coming out called Sight Unseen, Bud.
	Well, thank you very much.
	Tell me something about it real quick.
	Okay, well this is a book where I look into issues of UFO invisibility, the fact that when abductions take place The craft, the abductees, and the aliens are all somehow unseeable.
	This is something that we've known for a long, long time, but it's the first time it's been gone into systematically.
	And the other part of the book has to do with the scene part, which is the fact that there seem to be transgenic beings, quote-unquote hybrid beings, Part human, part alien, who seem to be operating in a daily way on our planet, driving cars, shopping, living, and so forth.
	But the rest of the book has to do with science that is going on on our Earth, which makes these things seem plausible rather than sort of crazy.
	So you're suggesting these beings are living among us now?
	Well, that was one of the first things on Dr. Jacobs' list, that our question, are the hybrids living among us?
	Now, what brings you to these conclusions?
	I presume you agree, Dr. Jacobs.
	Well, I think that Bud has more information about it than I do.
	I know that they can certainly be here for periods of time, but Bud has investigated them over extended periods of time, I think.
	But nevertheless, you would seem to be leaning toward thinking they are among us.
	Well, I think that they are, especially related to the abduction phenomenon.
	I suppose to conduct a successful abduction, one has to know something about the target, right?
	Well, yes, and of course people are abducted throughout the course of their lives, from infancy on, as Bud actually first discovered many years ago.
	And so therefore, when hybrids deal with them, they deal with them for long periods of time.
	A hybrid, let's define a hybrid.
	When you two say hybrids, what do you mean?
	Either one of you.
	Bud, why don't you take that?
	Well, in one case, for instance, that I go into, we have a man who looks very human in this particular case.
	When you make mean, hybrid, or transgenic being as if there's been some genes moved from one species to another, what you're really dealing with is a being that may pass totally as a human.
	in one of the cases of the mentioned the man a few to be a man in his fifties
	able to drive a car speak normally and so forth actually
	led this young woman uh... to an abduction
	drove her as it were into a field in new jersey where the ufo met
	and this uh...
	uh... alien being ammunition hybrid being was able to uh...
	read her mind control her very much like uh... the gray aliens do
	control her actions and uh... actually
	bring a right to the aliens for an abduction it and
	yet he looked as if he were a man in his fifties to even more classes i was
	pro car so we have this very very strange mix of
	uh... very human features that I guess I'm asking, are these hybrids genetic mixtures of aliens and humans?
	Is that what's been going on?
	Yes, I don't think there's any doubt that that's the way to define it.
	Is there any way at all, either one of you, to recognize these hybrids?
	Are there any differences from the normal human at all that would make you turn around and look again?
	Well, I think, for my part, that when you're talking about hybridization, you're talking actually about a spectrum of beings.
	Some look quite human, some look quite alien, most look in the middle.
	The ones I think that can deal with this on Earth for extended periods of time are what I call late stage hybrids and that is to say they really look human and you would not be able to tell the difference unless you were looking in for specific anatomical differences in a way that you wouldn't just do casually.
	Were either one of you able to hear my grey alien description and analysis done by Bill Hamilton prior to this hour?
	No, I wasn't.
	No, you weren't.
	I'm going to give you a few of these things very quickly, both of you, and see if you agree with them.
	This is by Bill Hamilton.
	Inference is drawn by the appearance of a gray.
	The head is large by human standards.
	Inference, more brain capacity.
	Eyes are generally slanted, large and black.
	Inference, eyes probably gather more light than humans.
	Infers dimmer sun and thinner atmosphere.
	Nose is usually vague, too small, narrow, visible.
	Inference, thinner atmosphere.
	Mouth is indicated by a small slit without lips.
	The mouth appears to be non-functional.
	Inference, the atmosphere may not support sounds very well.
	Natural selection may have given Gray E.B.
	small mouth and ears.
	No teeth.
	Inference, does not mastigate food for a source of nutrients.
	The body and head are completely hairless.
	Inference, hairless bodies may indicate warmth even though the air is thin.
	Could be warm because planet is close to sun or grays do not live above ground.
	And it goes on and on.
	Does that sound Do you think it's fair to draw inferences based upon the general description of the grays?
	Bud, why don't you take that first?
	Well, first of all, the description is certainly accurate.
	That's the kind of description we get over and over and over again and have for decades.
	Whether or not the inferences as to what they imply are accurate or not is another story.
	There are certainly logical inferences that a person could make, but they're not necessarily accurate.
	We don't really know.
	Right, and I agree with that.
	I did the same thing, actually, in The Threat, and I've written articles.
	I'm sorry, in Secret Life, I did the same thing.
	I inferred from their gross morphology how they might eat or get fuel.
	I do think that that's a legitimate thing to do and I'm glad that people are doing it to tell you the truth because it's time to begin to deal with the data that's already on hand.
	We've collected a tremendous amount of information as have other researchers and we've been putting out the information semi-regularly anyway.
	And we have to start taking stock of exactly what we have.
	And so I think that Hamilton is certainly on the right mental track.
	All right.
	Hybrids, hybrids, hybrids.
	If they're living among us now, any inference that we can draw about their presence with regard to motive?
	Either one of you have any idea why they would be living among us?
	In one of the cases I deal with in Sight Unseen, There seems to be a kind of nurturing of a human abductee over a long period of time.
	A man who lived, a parent hybrid, who lived with a family and in a sense it would certainly seem was negotiating the abductions of that child with the abductees and taking the child to an abduction site and so forth and
	this seems to be a kind of studying of the behavior of human beings too which
	they seem to be trying to learn by getting very very close to the texture of real life but
	again some of these things are hard to ascertain but it seems to
	be definitely going on we are now several years
	down line from when I first interviewed both of you and so many many abductions have now occurred
	Do either one of you have any doubts about the phenomena itself?
	Everybody has doubts.
	You can't be human and not have doubts, but I think that the evidence is not just compelling, it's overwhelming.
	And to begin to deny the evidence puts you into a very, very bizarre mental realm because the evidence keeps piling up.
	It keeps accruing.
	It gets stronger and stronger and stronger.
	And denial of the import of this evidence In light of the fact that there is no psychological model for it, it makes one kind of crazy, actually.
	So you just have to go where the evidence leads you, and it leads you to one place, I think.
	I've been asked about that same question a number of times, and I realize that it's with some regret that I realize that I no longer have The luxury of disbelief.
	It's such a difficult thing to accept.
	It's so crazy and it's so outside what we want to be true and the realm of the possible is always imagined outside that.
	To have to accept it is somehow a disadvantage.
	I really do actually agree with that.
	Prior to the hour, I said the bar has been kind of passed on the fact that it's occurring for me.
	is passed, and I'm up to asking and really wanting to know why and what this is all about.
	So that one bar has passed for me.
	It does seem to be happening.
	So I guess I'm sold on that one.
	The next obvious question is, what's happening to us?
	Why are they doing it?
	And hybrids would be a good place to start.
	I mean, why produce half-human, half-alien beings?
	And what purpose would they serve here on Earth?
	Dave, I think that's so much the subject of both your books.
	I think, Dave, that's so much the subject of both your books that it's really...
	I think Dave is...
	I just have to say, I take my hat off today for the courage that he's shown in following
	the evidence through to a logical conclusion.
	Hey, look, back during the days when we were getting the little warm and fuzzy E.T., Dave was the only guy stepping forth saying, hey, one moment please.
	Perhaps so, but these may not be friends of ours, and everybody ought to just sort of slow up here a little bit.
	And I found that pretty brave at the time.
	Well, or foolhardy, one of the two.
	The fact is that I wish I could get evidence of touchy-feely benevolent beings.
	That would make my life a lot easier, I'll tell you that.
	I could sleep a lot easier at night, too.
	In fact, I just don't get that, and I never have, to tell you the truth, not in the way that other people do anyway.
	And so my evidence has been very, very strictly controlled.
	That is to say, I'm extremely careful in how I gather my evidence, and I'm very careful in my questioning, and I'm very conservative, and I don't accept at face value what people say automatically, whether it's good, better, or indifferent.
	And I'm always waiting for verification from others, and I've managed to get some controls together so that when people do tell me what's going on with them, I can have a certain amount of assurance that they're on the right track and that there's a certain amount of believability in them.
	Having said that, the question is, what's the deal with hybrids?
	I remember, Bud, if I may talk about you in the third person, even though you're right there.
	You called me up in 1984, I think it was.
	You told me you had this most amazing case that you had ever heard.
	This woman was abducted and they showed her a bizarre looking baby.
	The baby sort of looked half human and half alien.
	They wanted her to feed the baby, put the baby up to her breast.
	I remember saying, I have never heard anything so off the wall and so bizarre in my life.
	To even mention the word baby in the context of UFOs and abductions just didn't make any
	sense whatsoever.
	I think that was sort of the beginning, the early parts of your discovery of this reproductive
	aspect of the UFO.
	of the abduction phenomenon.
	Maybe it would be worthwhile asking Bud to re-relate that story.
	Well, actually, that goes back to 1983, even earlier.
	But it's the book that I wrote, I wrote, Intruders, about that particular case.
	But the point is... No, this was actually Chris.
	This was Chris.
	Oh, it was Chris before that.
	Yeah.
	Well, but Debbie was 83, was when I got into that case.
	This was the first one, though, I think that you...
	Yeah.
	I remember that call.
	That call was a turning point in my life.
	It might be true, but what I began to pick up was there were several people who described
	to me that amongst the abduction experiences that they remembered partially or altogether,
	there was a strange physical situation where they remember having been pregnant, even though
	they might not have been sexually active or whatnot.
	How they got pregnant, they were definitely pregnant, and they suddenly weren't pregnant
	anymore.
	And not getting pregnant, I mean, without any sense of miscarriage or anything like that, the pregnancy disappearing was really upsetting.
	And then they told me separately, different people, that they had these very vivid memories of being shown the tiny baby.
	And being told the baby was theirs.
	And they were being asked to hold the baby, to bond with it, or to put it to their breast.
	Even when they weren't lactating, they seemed to be able to lactate and feed the baby.
	And all of this seemed outrageous, and yet I started getting case after case when I began asking people, asking women, if you've ever had any unusual pregnancies.
	And out came one thing after another, and the The idea that the baby was either, it was actually partially human, partially alien in its appearance, that either it was a situation of artificial insemination or an already fertilized ovum, which had been, let's say, genetically altered, had been inserted in them as if the host of a female womb was essential to the development of this baby.
	Was removed after a period of time and very often these babies seem to be reared in some kind of tank of liquid.
	They're not brought to term in anyone's body.
	Well, the whole thing seemed outrageous and yet when we look back to the Betty and Barney Hill case, we knew that there was a sperm sample taken from Barney Hill and that Betty Hill was given what she called a pregnancy test and Of course, going back even further to the case in Brazil... We're right at a break, you two.
	Hold on a sec.
	We'll be right back.
	Two of the greats are here.
	Bud Hopkins, Dr. David Jacobs from the high desert in the nighttime.
	when you think about things like this. This is Coast to Coast AM.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM, with Art Bell, on the Premier Radio Network.
	It is, here tonight, on abductions, two of the real greats, Dr. David Jacobs, and of course, Bud Hopkins, who's got a brand new book out.
	We'll be back with both of them in just a moment.
	Stay right where you are.
	Once again, Dr. David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins, two of the greats with us, and we were talking
	about pregnancy and I was trying to imagine how anybody could get pregnant.
	I mean, there's usually a nine-month period in there, but you sort of answered that, saying that perhaps these babies were raised, Bud, in some sort of chamber?
	Yes.
	So, do these hybrids Do you believe, either one of you, these hybrids know what they are?
	Are they being instructed?
	What do they know?
	Well, just in terms of some of the material covered in the book, that's a very good question, to know exactly what they know about their own origin and physical makeup.
	We don't really know that, but there is some reason to believe that they're a little bit conflicted on that issue, as to exactly who or what they are.
	Have either one of you interviewed anybody who claims to be a hybrid or that you suspect of being a hybrid?
	I have not.
	I've had people call me up and tell me that they think that their roommate is a hybrid.
	One time I had a woman call me up who actually was a professor at a major university and told me her roommate was a hybrid.
	And she made a really good case, I must say.
	And in what way?
	How?
	Well, she was a very, very strange person, and who didn't know certain basic things about normal life, and was just, you know, just very, very, very odd.
	But this was just on the phone, and I didn't, you know, it was thousands of miles away, and I couldn't just go out there and start investigating it.
	But I've had other people who say that they have seen hybrid, that they have That they have had relationships with hybrids who actually held down jobs and that sort of thing.
	And these people are solid citizens who are not prone to fantasy or to lying.
	And so there is a situation in which hybrids can kind of live these sort of normal lives.
	But ultimately, the question is, what's the purpose of this?
	Why are these hybrids being produced?
	My own research has led to the conclusion that what we're going to be seeing is a lot more of what Bud has described, and that this ultimately might be a program of integration into the society by By the hybrids, and not necessarily by the aliens, but almost certainly by the hybrids.
	At least that's where the evidence seems to lead.
	But wouldn't it be logical to presume they would be serving the aliens' purpose, whatever that might be?
	Well, I certainly think it would.
	And yet, even in some of the cases that I dealt with in Sight Unseen, They seem to be a little conflicted about the fact that their true connection and loyalties lie with the grey aliens, and yet they seem to develop, at least in some cases, enormous sympathies and connections with normal humans.
	So they're a little bit conflicted about their loyalties, which means this whole thing is enormously complex emotionally, psychologically, and every other way.
	We're going to have a conference on October 11th, which details can be found out on our website, which is intrudersfoundation.org.
	But anyway, at that conference, one of the people coming is one of the people I've written about in the book, who is himself a university professor, but he is going to be talking about his encounters uh... which been several with what seems to be a hybrid being uh... is that he seems to have some connection with from time to time it's a very very bizarre story but as they've said uh... you know some of these cases are extremely the people extremely credible and the descriptions are giving a really fascinating yes uh... but do you remember a story you told me about an abduction that occurred in new york city
	Oh, I've had many abductions occur in New York City.
	That's where I happen to live.
	This came right out of a skyscraper or something.
	I mean, this person literally came out of a skyscraper.
	Oh, yeah.
	Well, I've had, of course, the abduction case that was so important was the one that I wrote about a witness where the woman floated out of a 12-story window and up into a craft and was witnessed by I wonder if either of you have thoughts on this.
	Yes, that was an incredible story, and everybody who talks about abductions says, well, how come they always occur out in the middle of the desert somewhere?
	The fact is, occasionally they occur in a place like New York City.
	What would you imagine could be so important, either one of you, so that they would take the chance of doing something in the middle of an urban area like New York?
	Well, this goes right back to what Bud was talking about.
	One of the aspects of his book, and that is that location really doesn't mean anything.
	If you can't be seen, it doesn't matter where a person is abducted.
	That's a good point.
	What was extraordinary about the Linda case was that she was seen being abducted.
	People, all sorts of people on the outside watched her floating through the window.
	Now, I think there was a car from the UN or something, wasn't there?
	There were many people who were in a procession of cars, who were diplomatic people from different countries even, and UN personnel and so forth, and all of them, the cars were stopped, almost as if this was a built-in audience, and the abduction only took place when the cars were all stopped, their engines killed, of the electrical system.
	And then at that point, the lights were turned on and the show took place.
	The women floated out as if the aliens were for the first time saying, look what we can do.
	But the main thing about this invisibility issue, as Dave just said, it doesn't make any difference.
	And I have to take my hat off to Dave, who was the first one to present the invisibility issue as a given aspect of abductions.
	But I have a head.
	I've looked into abductions.
	Uh, that took place in Tokyo, in Chicago, in Rome, in Paris, in London.
	I mean, you cannot imagine, and I have abductions.
	I hear about an abduction and look into it in New York, that occurs in New York City, probably once a month at this point.
	I get these little computer messages as I go, and Darren in Decatur, Illinois says, hey, I think the sickly and irradiated greys are us, humans, from a future gone
	wrong, trying to fix the situation without ruining themselves, thus the hybrids.
	Time travel art, that's how the aliens got here.
	Possibility?
	Question mark?
	Well, you know, I've looked at this and I'm not a physicist and I'm certainly not a time
	traveler so I don't have a whole lot of experience in it and I count on my fingers and my toes.
	But there is a certain logical fallacy with time travel because if people were traveling
	through time back from time, that means that the future has already happened and that the
	future is predetermined to lead to those people traveling back in time.
	If you come back and change the present in some way, you are changing it to conform to
	the future that has already been predetermined, which would therefore automatically and absolutely
	lead those people to come back in time and try to change the present.
	When you change the present, you are changing it in such a way that automatically determines
	that those people will in the future come back and change the president
	It's a loop that you can't get out of.
	However, if you go, OK, we'll get off into it.
	That'll take us off into a time travel discussion, which I'd love to do.
	But, you know, a lot of things are going on on Earth right now.
	The Antarctic is melting.
	The Arctic just cracked literally in half.
	The warped ice shelf.
	I mean, things are going on on Earth at a pretty rapid pace right now that might cause somebody to conclude that in the future, the next 100, 200 years, whatever, This could be a really different place.
	What do you think?
	Well, as a historian, I'll tell you right off, you can't tell the future.
	But I'd say that what you just said, Art, is probably a pretty safe bet.
	It certainly seems it.
	And if the aliens are interested in healing our planet, as many people say, they might be healing it for them, as well as for us, or instead of for us, And of course, one of the problems with the idea that that's their basic mission, with the abduction phenomenon, is that most abductees are not necessarily more environmentally conscious than most non-abductees.
	Well, sticking with David's theory of how things might be, though, they also might be waiting for a vacancy.
	You follow me?
	I'm not sure what to make out of it.
	I don't know why, if they saw that we were cascading toward extinction, you wouldn't think they'd be needing to do this abduction business and all this toying around with reproductive stuff.
	Well, that's a good point, actually, and we might in fact be heading towards extinction, but it might be a million years from now, so it doesn't really matter for their agenda.
	But the fact is, though, that what we're all doing together right now is dealing with the nature of alien intentions.
	and this is something that the abduction phenomenon has allowed us to do for the first time.
	When we studied the outside shells of objects for years and years and years and years, any
	attempt to figure out exactly who was inside them and what they were doing here and what
	they wanted was just impossible.
	Impossible.
	We've got sightings.
	We've got physical stuff.
	That bar has passed, too.
	They've been up there, and they've been up there for as long as we've been alive, and you're right.
	We can't conclude a damn thing from any of that, but these abductions, that's a different story.
	That's right.
	Now, for the first time, you could have serious discussions about the nature and purposes of of this phenomenon and who these beings are and just exactly what they want with us and why they're doing these things to us.
	And I think that this is a huge step forward in UFO research, one that I don't think that people fully understand.
	I think that a lot of people in UFO research feel that we're just sort of treading water, that we don't know any more now than we did 30 years ago, and there's no place else to go and all that.
	And yet, at the same time, when you take a look at the abduction phenomenon, you realize that we've pretty much cracked this thing open, and we're dealing with the details of their intentions and the details of their program on a minute basis.
	And, you know, it's something that I think that more and more people have to realize.
	The evidence has been presented in almost an avalanche form in the past 20 years especially, And now we're beginning to deal with it, I hope.
	Okay, is there any such thing as a typical abduction?
	I mean, are there enough commonalities that you two hear with all the people you talk to?
	To say, here are the things in common.
	Here's a typical type of abduction.
	But I found all mine to be completely different.
	What about you?
	The similarities are extraordinary.
	Now, this is a very interesting way of looking at it.
	It's the things that the aliens do when they abduct people, the methods they use and so forth, and what happens when the person is on the table.
	Are extraordinarily similar, and in a negative way, when you turn it around, there are all these things that they never do.
	Now, for example, when the abductees are put on a table, stripped, put on a table, paralyzed, and we use the term examined, but we know actually that these are fixed procedures that they go through, they seem always extraordinarily interested in two aspects of the human body, the reproductive system And it would seem the central nervous system.
	Over and over again, those are the focuses of their interest in the human body.
	Now, when we go to a doctor, we worry about our heart and lungs and so forth.
	We have no cases, virtually no cases, where there seems to be an interest on the alien's part in the human cardiovascular system.
	They never pay any attention to the heart.
	Now this is really interesting, because we do.
	This is something central to us, but it never turns up in UFO abduction accounts.
	And it certainly would be turning up that way if, in fact, this was a product of fantasy.
	It's not a product of fantasy, it's a product of a very rigid, repeated system that the UFO occupants are using when they deal with human beings.
	Alright, then what kind of inference can we draw from that?
	Well, I think we can draw the inference that their interest in us is physical, and I should also say emotional, too, and psychological, and how our minds work.
	They are not interested in our technology.
	They don't care about our computers and our weaponry and so forth.
	They are interested in human beings' physical properties, their DNA, their particular genetic makeup, and they're interested in the way our minds work and our emotions operate and so forth.
	This is one reason why Very often, abductees, during an abduction, after the physical parts that take place, the abductee is shown imagery, virtual imagery so to speak, as if they're trying to check what our reactions are emotionally to various things that they can present to us.
	They seem extremely interested in the way the human mind works.
	What kind of things are they shown, typically?
	Well, what people see, both on a screen-like device or within their own sort of mind's eye, are sometimes scenes of devastation and destruction, sometimes scenes of armies fighting, bodies littering the ground and so forth.
	Sometimes they're shown scenes of average everyday life, sometimes they're shown scenes of verdant, beautiful wilderness areas.
	There's a variety of things that people see.
	Most people are more impressed, of course, by the violent scenes.
	One of the interesting cases, there was a man who was, after he was examined and the physical procedures take place, he was allowed to walk in the craft independently, which is very, very rare, but it does happen.
	And he was in some area which was quite dark, and he looked down Uh, at the floor.
	He saw something on the floor.
	Yes.
	And there was a apparently dead or dying alien on the floor, and he looked down at it.
	He could see its face, and he felt this wave of sympathy for it, as a human might for any kind of a dying fellow creature of any sort.
	Yes.
	And he was studying this.
	He realized off to one side, there were three aliens standing, staring at him, observing him intently, as if they were reading his emotions, and as if What he was seeing was actually something that was being staged.
	As if they wanted to understand how we would react to the prospect of death.
	Exactly.
	And their death, say, at this point.
	It's almost like a projective test where they elicit emotions from humans.
	Oh, that's fascinating.
	And they seem fascinated in the way our minds work.
	Dave and I have had many, many, many cases of this where And Dave has given the name staging, where these events seem to be staged.
	And they're almost little playlets sometimes, but they're shown things, the advectee, because it's almost a projective test.
	We think the aliens can pick up the emotions.
	of the viewer, of the human viewer.
	Well, I'm going to be pushing you to the edge of what you're able to comment on, but then again, the same question, then what is the inference we can draw from that?
	They want to know what our emotions are about something like death.
	Why?
	Toward what ultimate end?
	Well, I tend to look at this just a little differently, and I think that Bud is right, I think that it's more of a neurological checking, and I'm just guessing here of course, but I think that this is more of a neurological conditioning for future activity.
	One of the things that's interesting on this that I've written about in the site I'm seeing are situations where They seem to be wanting to learn from us what our emotions and feelings are, so that their hybrid beings, these hybrids, know how to behave and perform when they're on Earth.
	Ha ha ha, all right, yes, got that.
	All right, listen, we're coming to the end of an hour here, bud.
	Okay.
	Your call, if you want to stick around, we're happy to have you.
	Well, no, I think...
	I think that I've contributed what I have to contribute, and I really appreciate for the chance to have done it, too.
	All right.
	So thank you very much.
	Thank you.
	Bud Hopkins, thank you.
	And David, hold tight.
	And all of you, hold tight.
	That was quite a bit to digest.
	Good evening, everybody.
	Dr. David Jacobs continues with us next.
	Stay right there.
	I'm going to be right back.
	Stay right there.
	Stay right there.
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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	dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	It is indeed.
	There are some rides you might not want to take.
	We're discussing some of those.
	We're discussing abductions.
	But a Hopkins was here last hour.
	we continue in a moment with Dr. David Jacobs.
	My guest is Dr. David Jacobson.
	I'm Art Bell.
	His book is UFOs and Abductions.
	Challenging the Borders of Knowledge.
	That's his most recent book that you're certainly going to want to look into.
	His original book, the one that I first had him on the program for, was called The Threat.
	Now, in that book, Dr. Jacobs describes an alien culture that perhaps Or a threat that you might be a ride.
	You know, doctor, I'm going all the time getting these people call me up.
	Hey Art, how do I get abducted?
	Oh, I want to be abducted.
	I want to see what it's like.
	I want to experience this.
	What do I do to get abducted?
	And I always write back and say, be careful what you wish for.
	Right.
	Actually, the way that you, what you do to get yourself abducted is you have a mother or a father who's an abductee.
	So in other words, it's all in the family.
	It's all in the family, right?
	It's intergenerational, and that's the one thing that all abductees have in common.
	But let me just make a little minor adjustment to what you just said, Art.
	My first book actually was called The UFO Controversy in America, and then years later in 1992, I published Secret Life, which was about abductions.
	I think it was on your show for that, originally, and then it came out.
	The threat hit me right between the eyes.
	That's why I said that.
	It really hit me between the eyes.
	I think it hit everybody right between the eyes, but not in the way that I would want.
	It's a pretty strong book, and it goes pretty far out on a limb.
	It's one of those books that I tell people I'm horribly embarrassed about, yet I'm extremely confident of the data.
	That's why I'm writing this book that I've been doing now.
	At least I've been threatening to do it, but I'm about halfway through it now, which is about methodology.
	a limb on the other side, saying, they're here to help us, they're going to save us
	from some ecological disaster, they're friendly, they're warm and fuzzy, all the rest of it.
	There's plenty of people out on that limb, so why be embarrassed to be out on this one?
	Right.
	And that's why I'm writing this book that I've been doing now.
	At least I've been threatening to do it, but I'm about halfway through it now, which is
	about methodology.
	All it boils down to is learning how to learn about the subject.
	One of the things we've discovered is that when people remember what happened to them straight out, and it's just a conscious memory without any hypnosis whatsoever, it's almost always totally wrong.
	It's almost always totally wrong?
	That is correct.
	You mean as corrected later by hypnosis?
	Right.
	What we find is that because this is a clandestine phenomenon, And because people's memories are blocked neurologically, obviously there's no other way to do it.
	When they remember something straight out, they remember bits and pieces of things, and sometimes even those bits and pieces are distorted, and they put them together into a seamless narrative, and it becomes a concrete memory to them, and they take their life on it.
	I mean, I've had people tell me, Absolutely, with fist and palm.
	This is what happened to me.
	I remember it like it was yesterday.
	And this happened, this happened, this happened, and this happened.
	And then we'll investigate this case, you know, the situation, the memory and hypnosis.
	And they begin to realize it didn't happen that way.
	And they'll say, you know, I think I was wrong about this.
	This is not what I'm remembering.
	What I'm remembering now is something else.
	Which actually suddenly becomes more logical and they can see the pieces that they had remembered and how it fits into a more complex story.
	Does it suddenly become darker when you do hypnosis?
	Yeah, sometimes no, sometimes yes, but for sure it becomes different.
	And the problem then is that when people stake everything on their conscious memories, they might be a little bit on thin ice.
	I just advise people just to be real careful because what you remember is one thing, but with competent hypnosis, it might turn out not to be exactly as you remember.
	In fact, it might turn out to be a lot stranger, which it usually does.
	With the technological level that human beings have right now, we know enough about genetics to know where that science is going.
	So then if your model is that the people that are doing these abductions are far ahead of us in these sciences, which by extension they would be, then the things that they could do with bodily fluids and the other things that are taken, the reproductive organs that are studied, well there's no limit, is there?
	You know, that's exactly right.
	They can pretty much do any damn thing they want.
	But it also begs this bizarre question, and the question is, if they're taking people's sperm and taking people's eggs, which we've known about since Antonio Villas-Boas back in 1957, if they're doing that, then why don't they just take a couple thousand eggs from each woman And they would eat all the eggs that they would ever have.
	They would just take the follicles and they could mature the eggs in vitro.
	And once you get a couple of gallons of sperm around, you could make a whole lot of babies with a couple of gallons of sperm if you know how to do it right.
	So we don't know exactly why they're doing what they're doing, but one of the things that we've found in this phenomenon is that Everything is absolutely logical.
	They know exactly what they're doing, and they are doing it for a reason, and the way in which it is done is the best possible way for them.
	All right, give me an example from any abduction case you care to call back to memory of something that follows a chain of logic.
	In what way?
	Describe it to me.
	Well, you know, I'll go back to this call that Hopkins gave me back in 1983, where he When he told me this amazing story about how this woman saw this strange baby and they had her put this baby up to the baby's breast.
	This is one of my favorite stories because at that time in 1983 or 1984, whenever it was, we were just beginning to learn about this subject and we really didn't know much about it at all.
	I remember thinking, this is just the strangest, most bizarre thing I've ever heard in my life.
	Did she tell them that when they told her to put the baby up to her breast and feed the baby, that this can't be done?
	She's not pregnant.
	She's not lactating.
	She just can't feed the baby.
	That's not how human beings work.
	And he said, well, yes, she did.
	She said that she couldn't feed the baby, but they forced her to put the baby up to her breast anyway.
	And I thought to myself, gosh, that's terrible.
	That is so bizarre that if this is true, we will never be able to communicate with these beings because they value form over function.
	The form is putting the baby up to the breast and the function is feeding the baby, but there is no way to feed the baby.
	Therefore, their style of thinking is very, very different than ours.
	Well, what do you conclude from that?
	I mean, is it symbology?
	No, it was nothing of the sort.
	It was just that we didn't know.
	What we learned later on is that there's a procedure that takes place on a table early on in the abduction phenomenon which stimulates lactation.
	And whether a woman knows it or not, she is in fact lactating and the baby will feed.
	Do you think for the simple traditional reason?
	I mean, humans have always thought that Breastfeeding has all kinds of advantages for a child.
	A breastfed child has advantages over a non-breastfed child.
	Certain nutrients and protections against viruses and blah blah blah.
	I don't know.
	There's supposed to be advantages.
	We certainly always thought that.
	Any reason to believe that it was any different with them?
	There probably isn't actually.
	But you've come to a... that's also another It's a can of worms question because, you know, how much are these babies fed?
	And the question is which ones are actually fed or not.
	As Bill Hamilton mentioned, and as I talked about in Secret Life and in The Threat, aliens do not ingest food through their mouth.
	Late stage hybrids, the ones who look really human, will ingest food through their mouth.
	Early stage hybrids, the ones who look primarily alien but somewhat human, don't.
	The question then is, what kind of babies is she feeding?
	How much milk do they actually need?
	How do they get nutrients other than the milk?
	And is this woman who is feeding the baby the only woman who will feed that particular baby?
	Or is there a succession of women who are feeding the baby?
	How frequently in abduction stories have you even run into that?
	Oh, all the time.
	All the time?
	Oh, it's extremely common.
	An extremely common phenomenon.
	I can't emphasize that enough.
	This is an extremely common event.
	Oh, brother.
	So, you know, do you think that these hybrids I really wish that this was for our benefit.
	I want this to be for our benefit.
	Is there some common cause?
	I really wish that this was for our benefit.
	I want this to be for our benefit.
	I want this to lead to a better life, a better world, a better whatever, a happier something.
	All I hear is how everything is going to be great in the future.
	Everything is going to be wonderful in the future when they are here with us, but I don't
	hear that it's going to be wonderful for us necessarily, and it's certainly going to be
	wonderful for them.
	They tend to talk almost exclusively from their perspective, and their perspective is very different than ours.
	So this program, which they've obviously invested a tremendous amount of energy and personnel into, uh... it is something that they think it's extremely
	worthwhile and obviously positive
	uh... for them when i look at the future uh... with him i
	i'm filled with trepidation is it your view doctor that they feel
	the victims of abduction and and maybe the mothers of the hybrids with what
	they feel and then the mothers are are simply translating this in their own brain into the joy
	over what's occurring, but it's not their joy, it's the alien's joy.
	Yeah, that's another really good question, and it leads to two areas.
	Number one, when you deal with aliens, gray aliens, their emotions are severely restricted,
	so joy is not something that we see in them.
	These late stage hybrids who really look quite human, they do have joy.
	But the other question then is, why would a woman be feeling this kind of maternal joy to feed an infant or hold an infant or have some sort of other skin-on-skin contact with an infant?
	And the answer is that that's a mixed bag.
	A lot of women say, I don't want to go near those babies, get those babies away from me, don't let those babies touch me, you know, and they sort of force the woman to do this anyway.
	But some women do have these maternal feelings.
	Now, here is the situation when you take a step back from it.
	They're standing there naked on board a UFO surrounded by bug-eyed monsters from another planet and weird looking babies and they're beginning to have overwhelming maternal feelings and they want to hug and And the question is, is that the appropriate emotional response for the event?
	You know, I'm not a mom, so I don't know.
	Right, and the answer is, I'm not one either, so I can't tell, but I do know that they simply forget about their surroundings, and they have this kind of... But that's not natural and normal, is it?
	Well, it's not necessarily their own babies, either.
	I'm sure that maternal instinct is very strong, David, but gee, in a spaceship naked with aliens like you said, bug-eyed monsters standing there, that's got to be some really strong maternal instinct.
	It's got to be off-putting, let's put it that way.
	It would be for me.
	Yes.
	So the point is that I think a lot of these feelings are simply generated in them neurologically.
	Well, that's why I asked.
	With regard to this rosy future and things being better and this wonderful feeling that people describe, I talk to them, I hear it all the time.
	How can we be sure if they can impart one feeling, you know, the strong maternal get over where you are and who's looking at you feeling?
	Go ahead and feed that baby.
	That's pretty good.
	Then why not?
	In part, the future's going to be wonderful, but it might not be our future that's wonderful.
	It might be theirs.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And that's where a lot of people feel that the future's going to be wonderful, but they're sort of confused about for who and for what and all that.
	But there's something else, and that is that there's another procedure here that I might as well just kind of strictly address.
	And that is an extremely effective procedure, both effective and affective.
	It accomplishes what it needs to do and it has tremendous influence on people as well.
	That is to say that there's an egg-taking procedure and virtually all women go through this at one time or another, even women obviously with hysterectomies and having people have their ovaries removed.
	Since they're abductees for all their lives, before that they've had these experiences.
	So they've all had it one way or another.
	And they take eggs in a specific way.
	It's usually intravaginally and all that.
	But in fact, they can stimulate sexual arousal.
	And we've heard this many, many, many, many times, much to the abductee's embarrassment.
	And this goes all the way up to peak arousal, so to speak, to the peak.
	At which point, they go ahead and take the egg, and there's something that physiologically takes place that facilitates the egg taking.
	And I've seen this procedure literally hundreds of times, and that's not an exaggeration.
	Well, why is that unusual to contemplate?
	I mean, after all, normally all of this begins to take place with that thing we call sex, right?
	So maybe there's some aspect of the actual Act of sex that goes well in the way that a mother feeding a child goes well.
	I mean some part of it that's important.
	That's right.
	It either facilitates it through the normal changes that take place or else it facilitates release of eggs.
	Plus you'd have to admit it would take the edge off an abduction.
	It does do that.
	And that's sort of what my point is here now.
	Almost immediately, everything subsides and they just go about their business.
	There's nothing sexual about this.
	It's all just reproductive with this kind of sexual arousal feelings that women feel is engendered in them, usually while one of these beings stares very deeply into their eyes.
	And if I just might leap to more kind of strange things to say by what they're doing is they're stimulating the optic nerve and then using the optic nerve as a conduit to stimulate other neurological sites in the brain which would cause this.
	But the point is this.
	Now supposing this happens to you when you're a nine-year-old girl and it goes on and on all through nine, all through ten, eleven, twelve, through adolescence and into adulthood.
	Do you think this might affect someone?
	The answer is, for some people, no, but for other people, yes.
	I'd have said yes.
	Right, and a lot of this kind of effect comes out in people saying, you know, I've known aliens all my life, and they're just wonderful, and I just love them, and they love me.
	You're absolutely right.
	I've had more of those than I can tell you about, and they seem so totally far out, and I've had women on the program talking about I swear to you, sex with aliens and real serious about it.
	Right.
	Well, now there's another aspect to that as well, and as long as we can bring this conversation full circle by this part.
	Sure.
	And that is that, first of all, aliens have no genitals, so having sex with them is a tough one.
	Yeah.
	That's a tough one.
	But late-stage hybrids do.
	And late-stage hybrids are pretty much human.
	The cycle of taking eggs and inserting fetuses and then taking out the fetuses, this goes on and on and on.
	But you know, with an adult hybrid, you can do the same thing but bypassing a couple of procedures.
	What happens is, if I may backtrack a little bit, if you take an egg and a sperm and then you fertilize them, so you put them together.
	And then you take that gamete, or zygote, and you in some way introduce alien DNA, let's just say, for the purpose of argument, say that that's what's happening.
	Again, I'm not exactly sure.
	Then you have to take that fertilized egg with the DNA in it and put it back into the female.
	And ten weeks later, you remove it, and then it's gestated in this kind of container, as Bud pointed out.
	With an adult hybrid, he is already inserting pre-DNA-ed material, so to speak.
	In other words, you don't have to take the sperm and the egg and take them out and then, you know, and then alter it.
	Because you've got the real McCoy right there.
	He's already altered, and so we do see that between adult hybrids and women and men.
	Just to even imagine this.
	All right, hold on.
	We're at a break point.
	Dr. David Jacobs is my guest.
	And what we're talking about is abduction.
	And maybe we're talking about a lot more than that.
	Are we talking about a new world?
	Are we talking about a change in human beings forever and ever?
	I wonder.
	Once upon a time...
	Once upon a time...
	You know, every once in a while, a piece of bumper music is so good and it fits so well, you really have to use it
	twice.
	in conjunction with what we've been talking about listen to the words here
	once upon a time once when you were mine
	i remember your eyes reflected in your eyes
	i wonder where you are i wonder if you think about me
	once upon a time in your wildest dreams
	wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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	Once upon a time when you were 9, I wonder if you remember in even your wildest dreams.
	It just sort of fit right in there.
	Dr. David Jacobs is my guest.
	We're talking about abductions of human beings, the very strange things that are being done to them, and maybe, maybe, why.
	I guarantee you one thing.
	You'll never hear a discussion of this sort on the major networks.
	At least until some of those hybrids begin to get to being made network vice presidents or something.
	David, I've got a sort of a little fast blast I want to read here from Kay in Birmingham, Alabama, who says, all right, you know, the first place I'd look for any answers would be hybrids from history, the past history.
	The answer I keep coming back to is the account of the fallen angels recorded in the Bible, compelling evidence in my opinion.
	The reason is a case of good versus evil.
	Inevitably, David, we're going to get to people with the Bible and God, and when you start talking about aliens and reproduction and manipulating human beings and hybrids, that's creation, David, of a kind.
	It's like creation.
	You know, people are threatened because of their religious beliefs.
	Right, and the major religions are big enough to incorporate these kinds of events into them somewhere along the line.
	But actually, there's a way of looking at this that's a little bit different.
	And one of the ways of doing it is to ask the question, how long have abductions been going on?
	How long have they been going on?
	Well, if this is intergenerational, What that means is that if a non-abductee marries an abductee and they have four children, all four children will be abductees from what we've been able to tell, at least close to it.
	And so it's not normal genetics.
	It's sort of abnormal genetics.
	It's not like, you know, two will be and two won't be and all that sort of luck of the draw.
	We have to do the numbers on that one.
	It's kind of like putting a penny away and then doubling it every day.
	I forget what it is, but in 45 days or something, you're a millionaire.
	You're right.
	That's exactly it.
	Well, aren't we creating hybrids at that kind of accelerated rate?
	Well, I'm not sure.
	We might indeed be, but in terms of how old this situation is, then Then the question is, how long will it take for everybody to be an abductee?
	Well, exactly.
	In other words, that's what I meant when I said the entire human race may be undergoing a change.
	But I don't think that that's the case.
	I think that only a small percentage of humans are abductees.
	I think it's probably around 5%, maybe a percent more or less.
	But certainly within that ballpark, I don't think it hits double digits yet.
	All right, before we leave entirely the sexual aspect of this, if this phenomena cuts across every class, then do we have, and I know we keep records, a ratio of heterosexual to homosexual abduction experiences?
	Well, it mirrors the society.
	It's just exactly the same.
	It does?
	Yeah, it mirrors the society.
	One would assume that it wouldn't because people who are gay oftentimes don't have biological children, although oftentimes they do.
	So there would be a slowing down in that area.
	Although they would be every bit as physically able, physiologically able, as we would.
	They would, but they wouldn't necessarily get married to an opposite sex.
	But I think that it mirrors the society.
	I think that the phenomenon is so large that it mirrors just virtually everything pretty much in the numbers that we ought to see ethnically and religiously and in terms of sexual preference and all that.
	But here's the point I'm saying.
	If this phenomenon started back in biblical times, Then by the year, you know, 300 A.D.
	or so, or 200 A.D., everybody would have been an abductee.
	And everybody would be thereafter.
	And if it started in the year 1100, well, by the year 1300 or so, everybody would be an abductee.
	And if it started in the year 1400, by the 17th century, everybody would be an abductee.
	It takes about seven or eight generations for this to happen.
	And we know that only a small percentage of the People are not our abductees.
	So when we when we trace the numbers back that way it seems to start Around the 1880s 1890s.
	Hmm.
	Oh Okay, that means it's pretty well a lot far along then by now, right?
	There has been a lot of water under the bridge Yeah, a lot of water under the bridge and even though it's only been over a little over a hundred years a lot of broken waters on the bridge right and there's But there's already several generations that have passed by, and what you see is a growing number of people who are abductees, and it shows up in our statistics as well, in the polls that we've taken.
	We have a growing number of people between the ages of 18 and 25, I guess it is.
	Who've had unusual experiences than people over the age of, let's say, 55 to 70.
	And, of course, that shouldn't be, because when you ask people if they've had these sort of strange experiences, which we've asked them, people who are 18 or 20 years old haven't lived long enough to be able to say yes to a variety of them, whereas people who are 50 or 60 have, and they've had more opportunity, just because they've lived longer, to have had these kinds of strange experiences.
	But, in fact, younger people are saying that this has happened to them in greater frequency than older people.
	And I think that's that cone-like effect that you see spreading out in the society because of the intergenerational aspect of it.
	Are we able to note anything at all about the way the hybrids operate, what they do, the way they live their lives?
	Anything that would suggest to us function?
	Well, yes.
	What we see here, I must say, We don't know a whole lot about hybrid and hybrid life, but we know much more about hybrids than we do about aliens.
	There you are.
	But still, it's obviously very sketchy.
	I've seen hybrids in group situations where one woman described how they slept at night and their grooming procedures for themselves and getting dressed and all that.
	But where we've seen hybrids more than anything is in abduction activity.
	And in recent years, and I think I might have mentioned this to you before, Art, but it's still true, in recent years we've seen more and more hybrid-directed abductions with less and less aliens present.
	And this is what I think is a fairly I'm going to put business aside.
	I don't like this.
	I want to bring back the aliens.
	They're my friends.
	I like them.
	Suppose somebody were to conclude, Doctor, that what's going on now with the abductions is just perhaps modifying or righting some wrong with regard to the original creation?
	Well, it's possible.
	You know, if we could get into their minds more, it might be true.
	Maybe they're just genetically changing us to become more like them in some way so that we would be more perfect in their eyes.
	This is all their agenda.
	Once again, it's not ours.
	What I think is happening, which is also disturbing to me, is that if this, in fact, is an integration program, the point is that these beings have abilities and skills that we do not have.
	And they have abilities to do things with their minds and with their technology that we just can't do, and that automatically makes us into second-class citizens.
	And there's a built-in inequality that I don't look forward to, to tell you the truth.
	And so it's not just integrating into the society, it's integrating into the society on their terms.
	When Bud Hopkins and I were talking, we were sort of talking about how they're physically interested in people and they do this procedure and that procedure and some of the things they don't do.
	One of the interesting things that I found over the years is that they appear to have no interest whatsoever in anything that is political or economic or social or religious or anything like that.
	No interest in human institutions.
	No interest in how humans lead their lives on a intellectual level.
	That's fascinating.
	So if they have no interest in any of that, what do they have an interest in?
	Well, if they have no interest in any of that, that suggests to me that if this is an integration program, they will be integrating with their own institutions.
	So in other words, it suggests to you, our institutions, whenever Everything is finally their way, whatever their way is.
	It's not going to include any of our current institutions, because they don't give a rat's... they don't care.
	It seems that way.
	From what I can extrapolate, and I may be wrong about this, but their total lack of interest suggests that They have their own way of living that we will have to abide by and human institutions will simply become secondary or unimportant.
	I assure you people are listening very carefully to what you're saying because the traditional view is they're here to help us, they're benign, they're wonderful, the future is going to be great.
	Listen very carefully folks to what Dr. Jacobs is saying.
	They don't care about our institutions, they don't care about politics, they don't care about our social lives.
	So, think about that.
	What does that mean?
	Exactly what he just said, that probably that won't be part of, well, our future when we get there, and we must be well on our way.
	Do you see, let's presume for a second, all this is correct, Doctor, and they are not our friends, and they're about to change everything we know, and, well, I don't know if we love politics, you know, but everything we, sort of, our way of being, that all that is going to change.
	Is there any way to stop it?
	This is an area where not enough talented people have thought about and put their minds together and try to figure out a way to stop it.
	The problem is this.
	This is a global phenomenon and the amount of people who are being abducted around the world is just fantastic.
	What's our best guess?
	What do we think?
	Well, if it's 5% of the American population, it's almost certainly 5% of the world population, and 5% of 6 billion is about 300 million, and growing.
	And that would be about the size of the population of the U.S.?
	You know, supposing that I'm wrong by a factor of 50% or so, you're still dealing with tremendous numbers of people.
	And as I said, growing all the time, which means that they have invested a tremendous amount of energy and resources into this phenomenon.
	So this is a very, very, very important event for them, and certainly, obviously, for us.
	And the abduction phenomenon continues night and day, day after day, year after year, and doesn't seem to be abated.
	I've already forgotten the first part of your question.
	Do you think our military is aware of this ongoing process?
	Well, you know, as we talked about some time ago, I hope they are.
	I really hope they are, and I hope the government is aware of it, and I hope that they're all working on it.
	Because if our entire way of life and thinking and living is threatened, You know, everything we know and love.
	If all of that is threatened, then that would be a very serious threat against us.
	Hence, the military would be certainly looking into it.
	But there's another more subtle side, Art.
	And the subtle side is, it's completely crazy.
	And that's the side that they all go for.
	And in their minds, you know, that's the right side.
	And when you take a look at this from the outside, It certainly seems like the right side.
	What I've been saying for the past hour, to any logical person who doesn't know anything about the subject, is completely insane, and I'm exquisitely aware of that.
	But I do think that the government takes its cues primarily from the scientific community, and I can absolutely guarantee you that the scientific community is resolutely hostile to this subject.
	It doesn't take a neutral stance.
	Oh, that's interesting.
	Let's learn more about it.
	It takes a stance of, this is just completely nuts and we will not look at it or study it ever.
	Well, certainly publicly you're correct.
	That stance they take.
	I wonder though, you know, there's so many levels of government and secrecy that we don't know about.
	Maybe at some level they don't laugh so hard.
	Maybe at some level they really are studying this and concerned about it and trying to figure out how to fight it.
	Well, all I can say is I just hope that that's the case.
	I really hope that that's the case because somebody's got to be doing it.
	I mean, it's not up to Bud Hawkins and me and a few other people around the country who do this.
	Somebody else has got to be doing this, too, and I hope you're right.
	Well, if somebody comes to you, Doctor, and they say, look, I've been getting abducted since I was nine.
	I'm fed up with it.
	I hate it.
	For whatever reason, I want it to stop.
	Can you help me?
	What would you tell them?
	Well, if they lived in the area that I live in, in the Philadelphia or East Coast area, and they could get to me, I would, you know, I would have them fill out a questionnaire first, and I would have them, and I would decide whether or not they were, you know, compatible to going forward with me and all that, and whether they had some mental illness or something.
	Yeah, but my larger question is, I guess, is there a way to stop abduction?
	And then I would tell them that what we'll work for is emotional and intellectual control of this situation, so you can get under control.
	You can know what's going on.
	You can know how it's affected your life.
	And eventually get to the point of thinking about it, stopping, obsessing on it, and just go on and lead a normal life.
	But physical control, I cannot give them.
	I can't stop this phenomenon from happening.
	And the problem is this, and now I remember my train of thought, the phenomenon is so large and yet it is clandestine.
	And most people, maybe 99% of abductees, do not know that they're abductees.
	You can't stop it on a worldwide basis.
	You don't even know where to stop it starting at.
	Can you stop it on the individual basis?
	And even then, it becomes tremendously difficult because it can happen at any time, night or day.
	Now, it usually doesn't happen during a work situation or when a person is in the company of a lot of people, but there are ways of stopping it.
	Yes, if you really want to, you can.
	I had one woman Who took a length of string and she strung it up around her before she went to bed, even before she put her nightgown on and she strung it up around her crotch and up around her shoulders and around the other shoulder and down around and around her waist and then she cut it off and she tied it up and then she did it again with another length of string and then she did it again and then she did it again and then she did it again and so that she was completely dressed up and then she told her husband to hide the scissors.
	Oh, really?
	Yes, and that stopped it.
	That stopped it.
	That was a zero abduction event.
	But it aborted it, is what it did, because when she began to be abducted, they realized what she'd done, and they refused to take her.
	And we know that they will not take people with these kinds of situations.
	I won't go into it, but you've got to be sort of normal.
	So they took one look at her, and they said, we're out of here.
	They asked her why she was doing that, and they told her this was not good, she shouldn't do this, and they told her not to do it, and first they wanted her to remove the string, and she said she couldn't.
	And then they told her this was very bad, and she shouldn't do this, and they came back the next night, and she had trussed herself up again, and they once again gave her this stern, you know, talking to her about how this was bad, And she did it again the third night, and on the third night, she bargained with them, and she said, listen, I will not do this anymore if, number one, you allow me to remember more than what I'm remembering.
	Yes.
	And if you block the fear, because I'm scared to death every time this happens, and if you make me less fearful.
	And they said, okay, we will do that.
	Really?
	Yes, and then she removed it, and then when she was abducted again, all she remembered was she was scared to death, and she doesn't remember anything else.
	Oh my.
	So she was actually able to effect an apparent, I say apparent, concession from her.
	Well, the concession was that she would stop doing it and they didn't live up to their bargain.
	But you see, the problem is that you can't live your life like that.
	You can't do this every night.
	She's got a life to live.
	And there's other ways where people have found where they can kind of stop it a little bit.
	But they all intrude so much on a person's life that your life effectively stops.
	So, but it gives us hope that on an individual basis this might be stopped in other ways, which is why I say what we need is people who can think seriously about this subject.
	Okay, we're barely into it.
	We've got one more hour.
	Are you good to go?
	Well, I don't know about another hour.
	It's 4 o'clock in the morning here.
	How about another half hour?
	Well, okay, half an hour.
	We're trying to finish our done deal, half an hour.
	Dr. David Jacobs is my guest.
	yes we're talking about the
	now my my way it does
	the the the
	the the
	the the
	Or she will die Bye!
	The sun sets low, the sun sets low, the clouds go by, the air turns cold, and the under a tide as you always know,
	and she must fly.
	Wanna take a ride?
	Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	to the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
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	And to reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	Certainly is.
	Dr. David Jacobs is here.
	We're talking about abductions.
	Very serious talk about abductions.
	Bud Hopkins here, second hour of the program.
	Listen, here's what I'd like to do.
	I know there are abductees out there, so here's the way I'm going to do it.
	Instead of trying to snag one on the phone line, I'm going to do just the opposite.
	I've got this wonderful thing called Fast Blast.
	You'll find it on the Coast to Coast AM website in the upper left hand corner.
	You can send a message to me that way.
	And I want to talk to some abductees.
	So if you are an abductee, Fast Blast me your telephone number.
	And come bottom of the hour, I'll call you.
	And we'll get a couple of serious abduction stories to kind of top this night off.
	So make your way to the homepage, coastcozam.com, hit fast blast, and send me your phone number if you've got a good abduction story.
	I'll call you.
	We'll get back to David Jacobs in a moment.
	say right where you are i'd like to do the jacobs doctor a straight out if this is
	uh... what you seem to suggest it is on their part
	and all of this will unfold not in our favor then she shouldn't somebody like
	yourself be screaming at the top of their lungs that this should be investigated that there should be if
	there is a now military action taken or whatever it would take because in
	essence were being
	invaded I mean, that's the right word, isn't it?
	Well, I think it is the right word.
	I think we are involved in an invasion.
	It's not an occupation yet, but it is an invasion.
	Well, it's the most subtle kind of ultimate occupation, though, isn't it?
	Right.
	I don't know if it's an occupation quite yet.
	I mean, they're here, they're doing their thing, but they're not necessarily Giving orders and issuing curfews and that sort of thing.
	Not now.
	Not yet, that's right.
	But I don't really know how this thing is going to be played out and maybe it won't be like that and maybe it will be quite good and all that, but it does make me very, very uneasy and I am filled with anxiety over it.
	I never used to be.
	I used to think this was the most wonderful thing that had ever happened.
	I used to just be thrilled at the idea of dealing with UFOs.
	I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the subject when I was in graduate school.
	How did that go over?
	I did it on the controversy over UFOs and didn't address the issue of whether UFOs existed or not, although I kind of assumed that they did in the subtext of this book, which made it different than all other books.
	So I assumed the legitimacy of the subject.
	But I didn't try to decide whether it was real or it wasn't real.
	I just did how the government dealt with it.
	Well, even at that, how was it received?
	There was a certain amount of resistance to my writing it originally, and then once I finally got it cleared by my major professor, it was okay, because it would be only the second dissertation ever published on the subject, I mean, ever written on the subject, although Mike Schutz in sociology at Northwestern came about with one just a very short time later.
	But now I think there's like 15 or 17 dissertations published on the subject in some way or another, but almost all of them are fairly negative.
	They all think that it's just sociological or psychological.
	They go to the substratus of UFO research and dig down into the soft underbelly of the flying saucer world.
	Right, sociological treaties about the gullibility of people.
	What about the International Center for Abduction Research?
	Well, that is a title of an organization that has more words in it than there actually are members.
	Really?
	Right.
	I would think, though, that the name would imply that they'd be subjectively looking at abductions and taking care of those who have experienced them, that sort of thing.
	The problem is this, everything boils down to financing.
	I know that the Center for UFO Studies has had trouble in recent years with money and the mutual UFO organization has and membership has been falling off and people I think have become saturated perhaps a little bit with the subject and what we need is really a huge infusion of money and a large number of people to study this.
	And the people follow the money.
	If we could in some way get a benefactor or the National Institute of Health or the National Science Foundation, whatever it is, to begin to give money in the millions as they do for other public health phenomena, then suddenly you're going to get a lot of interest in the subject by a lot of people in the scientific community regardless of the... What do you think might come of such a large-scale investigation?
	What kind of conclusions do you think they might come to?
	That is an excellent question.
	There's no doubt that they can come to conclusions that I and Bud Hopkins and others have come to, that this is real, it's actually happening, that this has been going on for a long time, and that the first manifestations of it were probably the airship wave of 1896 and the Foo Fighters of the 1940s, and the Ghost Rockets of 1946, and then the UFOs after that, and it's all part of the same program.
	But the ultimate question is, what can you do about it?
	That's still the ultimate question.
	And for the life of me, I cannot figure out a way to do anything about it.
	I keep thinking maybe there might have been a way back in 1947 if people had ever taken the subject more seriously than they did then.
	But now, this program is so far advanced.
	And these people are so advanced technologically and all that.
	I really am at a loss to try to figure out even a strategy for dealing with it, let alone putting something into effect.
	I just don't know.
	I really don't know.
	We need help.
	Bud and I and others are just not enough.
	We need serious people thinking seriously about all aspects of this subject.
	And money is the way we, I suppose, get there, right?
	Unfortunately, in this society, pure interest means destruction of career.
	And at the university level, indeed, destruction of career and possible loss of tenure and everything.
	Everything comes crashing down.
	It's not good.
	If it's set up that well, so that people at the university level, for example, can't do this without threat to their life or career, livelihood, well then, They've got us but good, don't they?
	Right.
	It's not going to happen unless there's money involved.
	With money involved, when a person gets a grant to a university, the university takes part of that money and uses it for, quote, overhead.
	And they use it to help pay that person's salary, and it relieves the money pressure on a lot of different levels on the university.
	So everybody wants grants, and it makes them look good, and it makes the universities look good.
	And even a subject like this, with enough money, will look good, and suddenly the ridicule over it would stop, and all the negative aspects of it, in terms of the societal, the way the society of academics treats it, would stop once the money is there.
	I don't want to be cynical about this, but I've been in academics virtually all my life, and that's the way it works.
	So you can be cynical if you want to, that's fine.
	You know, the invasion word is a very strong word, but when I consider everything Bud said, and what he said over the years, and same with you, you know, that's what it adds up to.
	I mean, ultimately, if what you're saying is so, it's a done deal.
	It's just over with and we didn't even notice.
	You know, you might be right, Art.
	I wish I could say to you, oh, no, no, no, it's not a done deal.
	Oh, no, there's plenty we can do.
	But you might be right.
	There really may not be much we can do.
	Maybe I'm just despairing too much.
	Maybe I'm just feeling too frustrated or something.
	But maybe I'm just not smart enough to figure out what can be done, which is certainly more than likely.
	Well, you're smart enough to consider at least what others seem to refuse to wish to consider, either because of societal pressure or because I don't know, because somehow it's all a done deal, and we laugh at these things, and we don't pay attention when people tell stories, and we don't even pay attention when we seemingly have proof.
	We just don't pay attention at all.
	So, if it's what you say it is, it's going to be a done deal, and there's not going to be a thing we can do about it.
	Yeah, you know, I fantasized about what's going to happen in the future, and how one of these days I'm going to be proven right, and all the rest of that stuff.
	But what I actually think is that if I'm ever proven right, nobody's going to care who said it first.
	They're going to think of only one thing.
	Run!
	That's absolutely right.
	I hope you're wrong, but I've always had, since I talked to you the very first time, this nagging, terrible feeling that you were right.
	And again, that goes back to the question I asked at the beginning of the half hour.
	If you really feel you're right, and I can sense you feel that way, even if you're not willing to get out there as strongly as I am, then what about this screaming from the top of the lungs thing?
	Right.
	And the question then is, sure, I can scream from the top of my lungs and everybody will think I'm crazy and all the rest of that stuff.
	Of course, they think I'm crazy anyway.
	But in the end, the question then is, so what?
	So if I do scream and people do take cognizance of it and all that, You know, is it too late?
	Has too much happened?
	Does it really even matter anymore?
	Well, there's the question for you.
	Let's address that.
	It's a little more narrow, but it's an interesting question.
	You know, you laid down some timelines for us, how frequently it's happening, the way it multiplies, and the number of years that you think it's been going on.
	Based on all of that, is it too late?
	Well, to tell you the truth, I think it is.
	I don't know.
	Let's put it this way.
	I really don't know.
	I tend to think in absolute sometimes, but I really don't know.
	However, it's not just that we're late getting started.
	It's that the program is already well established and we are dealing with a very advanced technology.
	And we are dealing with a very advanced physiological being, as opposed to just, you know, beings who figured out... Oh, I'm so glad you said that, because another person fast-blasted.
	Look, Art, as these hybrids get older, as they mature, some of them are going to get ill, some of them, for various reasons, are going to go to a doctor.
	Aren't doctors going to begin to notice a physical change that they can't explain?
	Well, that would happen if they're here on a fairly large scale, and I don't think that anybody would say that quite yet.
	Most of the time, when I've seen hybrids in my own research, it's been as sort of as Bud has indicated a little bit, although he has other cases I'd indicate differently, but it's been primarily to abduct people, and I've had fairly complex hybrid activity here But still surrounding the abduction of a person.
	Taking a person from her car, having her follow them, taking them to an abandoned military base, for example, outside of Washington, D.C., and with another hybrid, and taking a couple of people and abducting them there, and so forth.
	And I've had these things, and I've had more complex events happen with hybrids as well.
	But I have yet to have a case, well, I have yet to have more than one case, let's put it this way, of a person who's obviously living here and working here.
	But we should have, if there were the case, we should have like many, many, many, many of these cases already.
	And they're still relatively rare, rare enough so that I don't want to run across them so much, although Bud might.
	But that's still a rare event.
	I wonder if there's any kind of difference or development in the medical community that's been observed but not necessarily reported on or anything like that?
	Right, and that's an excellent question and what you're dealing with here primarily is doctors who see anomalies in patients that they have never seen before.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard the phrase, you know, I've never seen like this before.
	It's the first time I've ever seen this.
	I could have retired from Temple years ago, but the fact is that they don't take it in context.
	All they know is they're looking at the strangest kind of scarring, for example, or a scar pattern that exists on both shoulders of a man.
	In a certain kind of circular pattern with dots forming a design on both sides of his shoulders.
	But trained very carefully to think in a certain way, they would dismiss any oddity of the pattern.
	They wouldn't be concerned with that.
	They'd be concerned with patching it up.
	They're patching it up, but they'd also be concerned with, look at this.
	This is the weirdest thing.
	I've never seen anything like this.
	And they might even call in some associates to take a look at it.
	It's just the weirdest thing.
	What they don't know is that other doctors have seen the same thing and have not written it up.
	And so they're unaware that what they're looking at, in fact, is a pattern of scarring or a pattern of, and just sort of fill in the blank here, you know, for what I'd like to present with, but a pattern of this kind of anomaly that other doctors are seeing, too, and they don't realize it's a pattern.
	They just think it's unique.
	That's what we see in physicians.
	For example, anomalous ovarian scarring, which is very common with abductees because sometimes they'll use instruments to go directly into the ovary and take out follicles, and this causes scarring.
	And it can lead to sterility because one of the ovaries might be too encrusted with scar tissue to release an egg.
	And this causes, obviously, awful problems in a person's life.
	And doctors will say, you know, I've never seen scarring like this before.
	It's just amazing.
	Not knowing that many other doctors have all seen the same thing, and also the same thing.
	Another thing with medical professionals, they know, and so do police departments, that rapes are incredibly under-reported.
	More of them occur than they even hear about.
	I refer now to the police, for example, medical professionals.
	People just don't report rapes.
	Do you think that abductions Probably fall into the same category that an awful lot of time, somebody is either going to doubt their own sanity, or their social pressure is going to keep them from reporting it, that they're incredibly under-reported.
	Absolutely.
	And people learn in grammar school to keep their mouths shut.
	Because if they open their mouths and say, well, these little people have been coming in my room and taking me up to their spaceship and so forth, the teasing starts and it never stops.
	And they become ostracized from their friends and they learn early on, this is something you just don't talk about.
	And they just prefer to put it in the back of their minds and not even think about it.
	And I've had many, many, many people who have been through this route.
	Then when we're looking at the number of abductions that are occurring, how do we factor that in and come up with a number that might be so?
	Well, when Bud and I did our Rover Poll back in 1991, we asked a random sampling of people around the country a series of questions that abductees answered yes to in very high frequency, and non-abductees answered no to in very high frequency.
	And so we just did a random sampling of 6,000 people, three 2,000-person sweeps.
	The poll was then repeated in 1998, I guess it was, by the Bigelow Organization.
	Yes.
	The numbers were slightly different, but it still showed that there was one hell of a lot of people who had very, very strange experiences out there.
	Do you remember the percentage?
	Well, Bud and I, we did not ask the question, have you ever been abducted, because that question people will say no to automatically, because what they've done is they've taken odd things that have happened in their lives and they've slotted them into seeing religious figures or traveling on the astral plane.
	Yes, yes, sure.
	But we know that people who are not abductees say no to these questions,
	and very high-frequency people who are say yes a lot.
	So we were able to extrapolate that a fairly high percentage of the people out there,
	maybe 6%, 7%, maybe even more, were saying yes to these, but we cooked the figures to get them down to 2%
	because we figured that politically going forward in the media,
	You're kidding.
	What, 5 or 6 percent was just crazy.
	You're kidding!
	You actually had to cook the figures the other way because they were much higher than you thought?
	That's incredible!
	Actually, I talked a little bit about this in the thread where we broke the poll in half.
	We decided we were only going to accept yes answers to what we call higher indicator questions, which were sort of higher indicator but not quite.
	And then we refused to accept any people who had answered less than four or all five of the questions positively, and could have answered eight out of the ten questions positively in that poll and not made it to the final statistics.
	Doctor, our time is up.
	Your book, UFOs and Abductions, Challenging the Borders of Knowledge, sounds like some book that somebody ought to run right out and get if they want to know more about what we've been talking about.
	Thank you for being here.
	Thanks Art, I appreciate it.
	You have a good rest of the day, doctor.
	I'll try.
	Take care.
	Dr. David Jacobs.
	Road his wings cross all the skies kiss the sun touch the moon
	but he left me much too soon his ladybird he left me
	I'm falling down the spiral Destination unknown.
	Double cross messenger.
	All alone.
	Can't get no connection.
	Can't get through.
	Where are you?
	Well, the night is living on his guilty mind He's missed on from the borderline
	When the hitman comes He knows damn well he hasn't cheated
	And he says I'm a man living in a twilight zone
	This is the madhouse Feels like being blown by a beacon
	Can't move under the moon and sun Where am I to go now that I've fallen in love?
	I'm a man living in a twilight zone This is the madhouse
	Feels like being blown by a beacon Can't move under the moon and sun
	Where am I to go now that I've fallen in love?
	You are hard to go When the bullet hits the floor
	You are hard to go When the bullet hits the floor
	Wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
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	on the toll free international line call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800 8 9 3
	0 9 0 3 This is Coast to Coast AM, with Art Bell, from the Kingdom of Nine.
	but hopkins david jacobs doctor jacobs and the subject abductions all night long
	so it makes all kinds of sense to uh turn to you right now as i'm about to do and get a couple of
	real abduction stories coming right up makes sense doesn't it uh
	I've got a couple of people here who claim to have been abducted, and so I thought we'd chat with them and see what they have to say.
	I believe the first one is Peggy.
	Is that correct, Peggy?
	Yes.
	Hi, Peggy.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Bloomington, Indiana.
	Bloomington, Indiana.
	All right.
	Well, first of all, thanks for fast-blasting me and letting me know that this is something that's occurred to you.
	What can you tell me?
	Well, I've had several experiences where I have Actually, I remember actually feeling the people come and take me away, take me out of my bed.
	And most of those times I don't remember what happens, except I just remember them taking me away and bringing me back.
	Alright, you're talking obviously about multiple occurrences.
	How long has this been going on?
	For over a period of several years, maybe even since I was a child, I don't know.
	I just have vivid memories of a few of them.
	How old are you now?
	I'm 51.
	What kind of memories do you have?
	What are the most vivid of your memories?
	There's really a couple.
	One is a particular memory I had when they came and took me away.
	I remember what the people looked like.
	Describe them.
	Okay, they had these long brown hooded, I guess it looked like a robe or something, went all the way down to their feet and looked like a one-piece garment, hood, and their lower bodies were like heavier than their upper body.
	They were like, I don't know, like large behind and thighs.
	And they moved like their knees were permanently bent.
	So instead of like walking, they kind of shuffled and you know, like rolled from side to side.
	Yes.
	And about, it was like about four or five of them that came and took me away.
	Do you remember in what manner they came and what manner you left?
	In other words, how did it physically occur?
	They came and picked me up and carried me off like, you know, a gang of them.
	came and picked me, carried me off, and then I don't remember anything after that.
	The next thing I remember is being brought back by the same group and put back in the bed the same way I was.
	And you don't remember a thing that happened to you in between?
	No.
	Have you ever considered going to somebody like Dr. Jacobs and being regressed with hypnosis to really find out?
	Do you want to know what happened to you?
	Yeah, I have thought about that, but I'm not anywhere near a place where I can do that, you know?
	And it's, you know, one of the things in my mind.
	But I do have a memory of something that happened.
	I'm sure it was aboard an alien craft.
	In this particular instance, I woke up In a place that looked like my bedroom.
	Apparently they had tried to recreate my bedroom in my apartment.
	And how did you know it wasn't your bedroom?
	Because the door was closed.
	And I never close any of my interior doors.
	And that door was closed and behind the door there was like a light coming under the door.
	And it sounded like a whole lot of people were in there throwing some kind of party.
	You know, it was like the noise of a party where, you know, you can hear a lot of people talking, but you can't really understand what they're saying.
	Yes, you're sure.
	And everything in the room was set up to look like my bedroom, but it wasn't.
	And I tried to get up to see what was going on.
	And you couldn't move?
	Couldn't move.
	And then the door opened and this little guy came in.
	I don't know exactly how to describe him.
	He was extremely ugly.
	Little guy.
	Little.
	A little midget dwarf looking kind of guy.
	Extremely ugly.
	He might have been on a little hybrid you were talking about.
	I don't know.
	But he was just, you know, really misshapen, funny looking.
	And he had this great big pair of scissors.
	It was almost as big as himself.
	Oh, great.
	And he had to hold the handles in his, in both hands, you know.
	Yeah.
	And he came right up to where I was and I was frozen.
	I couldn't get up.
	And I was trying to get up and say, you know, who are you and what are you doing?
	Well, so far it's like every slasher movie I've ever seen, you know?
	Well, he came at me with those big scissors and shoved them right into my face and put them, put the point right by my third eye and snapped them shut.
	And then he sort of... You've got to be kidding!
	No, that's what, that's actually what happened.
	And then he sort of like grunted and And like he was, you know, he didn't say any words, but his attitude was like he was groaning, saying, so well, so there.
	You know, and then he just took the scissors and walked out the door.
	And the next thing I knew, I was, you know, waking up and, you know, back home, you know.
	You haven't had any babies that you recall?
	No, not that I recall.
	I don't even have any children in the real world, so I don't really know.
	I see.
	Do you think you have children elsewhere?
	I hope not.
	When you hear people like Dr. David Jacobs talk about what happens during these abductions, surely that must give you a case of the heebie-jeebies, because Yeah, it kind of does because I wonder if... I wonder if they did something with me.
	Really, I think maybe I have just one small flash of a memory where they might have... I was like face down on a table and they may have been doing something with a probe.
	All right.
	You know, that's about all I can remember.
	Well, that's still quite a bit, Peggy.
	I really appreciate being able to talk to you.
	Thank you very much.
	Thank you.
	I really enjoy your show.
	Thank you.
	Take care.
	You've got to wonder about people who have vague recollections of perhaps being abducted, and then they begin to hear all of this.
	Is it sort of a transference of knowledge, of false memory that they acquire?
	Or do they suddenly really begin remembering these things?
	Um, hello there.
	You're on the air.
	I think this might be Mary, I hope.
	Mary?
	Yes, this is Mary.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Hi, I appreciate putting your number up there so I could call it, Mary.
	You claim to be an abductee.
	Yes, I do.
	Uh, what can you tell me of what has happened to you and when you realized it and how long it's been going on and whatever you can give us.
	Okay, well, I'm from KLBJAM in Austin, Texas.
	Yes.
	And we're really glad you're back on the air, Art.
	Oh, well, thank you.
	We've missed you a lot.
	Thank you.
	My father was an international pilot for American Airlines.
	Yes.
	And he flew during the Roswell incident.
	Oh, yes.
	Yes, and supposedly a lot of the debris from the Roswell incident was taken to Carswell Air Force Base.
	That may well be.
	How does this fit in with a possible abduction of yourself, Mary?
	In Fort Worth, Texas.
	Well, it started with my mother.
	And she said that little people came down the hallway and came into her bedroom.
	She told you this?
	Yes.
	And so what we did was we took the dogs that we kept in the garage and I started putting them in the house when Dad was gone on flights.
	And then your abduction?
	You were abducted?
	Yes.
	Or just your mother?
	Or did that begin to happen to you?
	The first time I remember being abducted was in the summer of 1970 in Austin, Texas.
	I was a student at the University of Texas at the time.
	And the last abduction That I remembered was two days after the first memorial service of 9-11.
	Tell me any of the specifics of any of the abductions that you remember.
	Tell me what you remember about them.
	The most vivid abduction experience that I feel comfortable sharing in the public.
	Yes.
	Constance Clear was my therapist.
	She is a known There's obviously a lot you don't want to share in public, is that correct?
	Well, it's like I've programmed, I've been programmed that if I share it, that I'll hurt myself.
	That's the way I was programmed, but I had to work through therapy to be able to get through that.
	But you did say there's a lot, or I guess I read between the lines, obviously there was a lot you didn't want to talk about.
	Or couldn't talk about still?
	Well, I come from a very political family in Texas.
	Yeah.
	And I chose not to talk to protect my family.
	I do understand that.
	All right.
	Then let's go back to what you can talk about.
	You say the one that there was one you could talk about.
	Yes.
	The most vivid one I have is waking up in the middle of the night with light all over in the room and little people standing at the You're the second person to say that.
	and feeling paralyzed and not being able to get up.
	Then when I was able to get up, I went outside and looked for the light and I couldn't find
	where it was coming from.
	And there wasn't a moon out.
	There was no moon and there were no clouds in the sky.
	You're the second person to say that.
	Actually, I've heard it from many of this bright light that people can't figure out
	what it is.
	But I'd like to say that the best part of figuring this all out came from Whitley Strieber
	when I read the book Communion.
	Oh yes.
	That was in 1987.
	Alright, well then here's I guess a critical question for you and it goes right back to what I was saying a few moments ago.
	You say a critical part was when you read Communion.
	A lot of people outside the abduction community believe that these are induced
	memories that these are things that are sort of, you know, when you read communion or when you read a book about abduction,
	suddenly you begin remembering things that didn't really happen.
	Things that you just took from the book.
	What do you say to that?
	Well, I say, Art, that if you're an abductee and you read the work of another abductee,
	you know in your heart of hearts that you're reading the truth.
	But you're sure there's not some transference that takes place, for example, from what Whitley wrote about what they look like or what they did that suddenly got added to your story?
	I know it's hard to talk about or even consider, but have you objectively considered that?
	These are my thoughts, they're not given to me from this book.
	Yes sir, I have thought about that and I drove to San Antonio on a regular basis to see Constance Clear, who is considered to be one of the best therapists on abduction issues in the United States.
	So you're trying to get help?
	And why did you do that?
	What did you hope to get from her?
	An understanding of what happened to you?
	Did you want to be regressed?
	I wanted to get them to stop abducting me.
	I wanted to get him to stop abducting members of my family.
	So, you said in the beginning, and certainly it was underscored by Dr. Jacobs and Bud Hopkins, that this occurs in families.
	People need to understand this.
	You may not be one of them, but it's occurring in generation after generation after generation.
	So, how did she help you?
	Did she get them stopped?
	And if so, through what method?
	We, she wasn't able to get them stopped.
	Yeah.
	And she became fearful.
	So she quit seeing patients in general and went on sabbaticals.
	Really?
	Yes.
	When you talk about this you sound very emotional.
	Almost ready to cry.
	Is that right?
	Well, I have a real strong power.
	I have a real strong higher power, and I have a real strong faith in God.
	Yes?
	And God is in charge.
	I might not understand all that's going on, but God is in charge.
	Well, I would almost guess, hazard a guess, that you've asked God to stop it, haven't you?
	Yes, I have.
	How's it going so far?
	In other words, it hasn't stopped, has it?
	Well, it's sort of like Paul having a thorn in his side.
	And if you read the New Testament, he asks, well, why did this happen to me?
	And he just goes on with his life spreading the good news.
	So I feel like I've been chosen.
	I feel like I've been chosen to bring out what's going on, just like you've been chosen, Art, and just like Bud Hopkins and Willie Streber and all of us have been chosen to be the messengers of what's going on.
	Well, alright, let me try you out.
	Let's try you out on this one then, if you really feel that way.
	David Jacobs is fairly alone in thinking that This might not be so good for us, you know, as in humanity, that the plans and the objectives they have for us and for the human race might not be so good.
	What do you think?
	Well, in the Old Testament, there's a story in Genesis about the sons and the daughters.
	So what you think is going to be shaped from what's in the Bible?
	Yes, sir.
	No, that's all right.
	So you think that this is all part of some greater plan?
	Well, we'll see.
	In my religious faith, we talk about whenever we come across a problem that needs to be solved, we look for tradition within the church.
	Yes.
	So that's what you do with your experience?
	Right.
	And we go to scripture.
	Yes, I clearly understand that you do.
	And we look for what the saints in the past have brought forth on how to deal with certain situations.
	And one of the ways that you come to the tradition is to do a lot of research on it.
	Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs works.
	And so you've just got to keep the faith, is what you've got to do through all of this, is what you conclude, right?
	One of the ways I keep the faith, Art, is I listen to you, and I'm so glad you're back on.
	Well, thank you.
	But that really boils down to it for you, right?
	You keep the faith.
	You believe this is part of a greater plan, and it's going on, and it's going on because God is letting it go on, and it's all part of some greater plan, right?
	Yes, and for any abductees who are having memories come up, I would like to say that you can go to a website for more information, and that's unknowncountry.com.
	That's Whitley Streber's website.
	Right.
	Don't have to live this alone, that there's help out there, that we're here to help you.
	Alright, thank you very, very, very much for calling and relating all of that to us.
	Now, boy, was that classic or what?
	Wow!
	We actually discussed that in the last couple of hours with Bud and David, and that is that people relate to these abduction experiences in their own way, and if your way is like this young lady's, Mary's, and it's a religious background, then Your brain is going to reach out to your religion and your faith and what you believe in order to give you a way psychologically to deal with what's happening to you.
	And if that's what people are doing in their way of dealing with this personally for them, it's fine.
	But I'm not so sure what it means for the human race.
	If you take Dr. Jacobs for you, that they may be out to change everything we are, everything we stand for, all of
	our institutions will not be theirs when we're part of them.
	Huh.
	If you buy off on all of that, well, then you just heard a classic example in Mary of why we're not hearing about it,
	and why it may be all over already.
	Well, that'll do it for tonight.
	That's all the time I have.
	So, this was fascinating.
	We'll be back tomorrow night when we'll be discussing little tiny things at the molecular level.
	Good night!
	Sweet dreams are made of this.
	Who am I to disagree?
	I travel the world and the seven seas.

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