Art Bell

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May 29, 2003 - Art Bell

02:46:19

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Cosmology & Consciousness - Adair Butchins

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01:12:57

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, good morning, good afternoon, morning maybe across the world, covered very strictly by this radio program called Post to Post AM again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another opportunity to sit in this honored opportunity on my George and Post Network, giving me this opportunity to sit in.
unidentified		It is my honor and my pleasure to be here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it should be very interesting, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll be here this evening as well as tomorrow evening.
unidentified		I've been told you never know day-to-day in radio, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got a bunch of stuff to tell you about.
		Let me preface it by saying, for those that are curious or care, my back is better.
		Never been better, actually.
		I'm walking around like a normal human being and continue to do so with minor little episodes every now and then, but nothing much.
		I think that I have, he says today, beaten the surgeon's knife.
		So wanted to cut into my flesh and, you know, change my back around, the one that the Lord gave me.
		And so far it's not going to happen.
		Now, Ramona, my beautiful wife Ramona is fine.
		The kitty cats are spiffy.
		Everybody is fine.
		Got a lot of really interesting stuff to tell you about.
		We've taken several road trips, you know, out in the land yacht, we call it.
		We take care of our baby, 95.1 FM here in Perup, Nevada.
		And it takes up life, you know, that's how retirement, it's not really retirement.
		I'm retired, but I'm still in radio, immersed to my neck in radio, along with my wife.
		I'll tell you this, here's an observation.
		A lot of station owners out there will understand this real well.
		You know, I've always been on the air, on the side of the microphone.
		And I've done some engineering.
		So I know a little bit about engineering too, but that's where my real knowledge of radio stops.
		You know, what do I know about sales?
		What do I know about scheduling?
		What do I know about logs?
		What do I know about keeping records?
		What do I know about a million things?
		Well, I know a lot now.
		I have been learning how to actually run a radio station.
		It's a very serious experience, let me tell you.
		And my wife could tell you, too.
		It's been incredible.
		So we've been doing that.
		So if you want to say that's retired, it's not really retired.
		It's just sort of shifting a little bit.
		But it's really cool because I'm learning something new.
		Now, I'm going to weave a little tale for you, only it's a true tale, and it's happening right now.
		And this is really a cool story.
		It's going to be technical.
		So some of you out there, I hope your eyes don't glaze over.
		Just bear with me.
		I think you'll understand the implications of what I'm about to tell you, even if you don't understand the technical details.
		I come to you tonight sunburned and stiff, very stiff.
		My whole body is stiff.
		And it's because I have been, along with a construction crew and a whole bunch of guys, putting up this incredible antenna that I'm about to tell you about.
		This is really an unbelievable story.
		Many of you know I'm a ham operator.
		And I don't know, a year ago, maybe less, I thought it would be a really cool idea to put up a monster antenna.
		So I did.
		A 1,000-foot loop pretty high up in the air.
		And some pretty unusual things happened when I put up that loop.
		I noted out of nowhere, just slightly in excess of 300 volts, appeared to be developing out of the air, out of the ether.
		People have suggested the power lines were coupling.
		People have suggested, you know, it's like a capacitor to the earth.
		People have suggested a million different things, but nobody really can explain it.
		Nobody.
		Well, over the last several days.
		Well, let me go back a little bit.
		I read a book about one of the most famous amateur radio operators, famous hands in all of history.
		His name was Don C. Wallace, W6AM.
		And that's how I decided to start trying to build these giant antennas.
		I read that book, and the man was a genius.
		The man.
		He put up these rhombic antennas, these monster antennas that were designed to be very narrow and worldwide.
		We zero in on a country on the other side of the earth.
		You know, 1,100-foot antennas, big antennas.
	So, inspired by him, I put up this 1,000-foot loop.
	Besides being an incredible antenna, this antenna had about 300 volts.
	Out of nowhere.
	It still has 300 volts.
	Well, actually, it has 400 now.
	You see, over the last few days, I made a really incredible modification to this antenna that would appear to truly defy the laws of physics as we understand them as they relate to antennas.
	Here's what I did.
	I moved the top loop, this 1,000-foot circumference loop, and by the way, you can see it on the Coast to Coast AM website.
	I've taken some photographs, one hanging out the door of a helicopter.
	I was hanging out the door of a helicopter with my camera, taking photographs of this antenna at my location where I live.
	It was fun.
	You know me in flying.
	I love flying.
	Hanging out the door.
	Wait, actually, they took the door off, so I had a seatbelt on, and I just hung out and took the photos.
	All right, so I had a construction crew in here over the last several days, and we together built this monster that we now have.
	We extended the current, the poles that hold this large antenna, 1,000 feet around, to 70 feet in the air, and we put the top loop 1,000 feet around, at 70 feet.
	And then we did something that hasn't been done, I guess, in a lot of years.
	We put a second 1,000-foot loop at 63 feet all the way around, fed in parallel, fed in phase.
	Here's where it's going to get a little technical, but bear with me for those who do understand it because I have a question.
	This antenna now exhibits about 400 volts.
	400 volts.
	Now, bear in mind, we're further away from the power lines than ever.
	Now it's about 400 volts coming out of the ether.
	I don't know where it's coming from.
	Nobody does.
	Power company was supposed to come over here.
	I've got elements of AC and DC on that line at 400 volts, elements of both.
	And then we put this antenna on the air last night, late, about dark.
	When we did, we began to get signal reports that were just unbelievable.
	And I mean unbelievable.
	I mean 20 or 25 decibels greater than the night before at about 30 different locations, some with measuring with careful test gear, you know, commercial test gear, that kind of thing.
	There is no way on God's green earth or even our brown desert where I am that such a thing should be possible.
	That's an impossible amount of gain.
	In fact, really, there shouldn't be any gain at all.
	However, I read Don C. Wallace's book.
	Actually, Jan Perkins wrote the book about W6A and Don Wallace.
	And in that book, several times he kept mentioning, run another wire about six or seven feet under your current wire, and you will see an incredible amount of gain that there's really no documentation for.
	But I'm telling you, it's true as it relates to the rhombics he put up.
	So I thought, well, well, then why not with it, if you can do it with a giant rhombic, then why not do it with a giant loop?
	And I did.
	And the results are inexplicable in terms of the voltage being gleaned from the ether, in terms of the signal reports, the incredible signal reports.
	So this is what I've been doing the last few days.
	This is why I'm sunburned, all red in the face right now.
	It was an incredible project, and I want to give you a sense of it.
	So if you'll go to coasttocoastam.com, you'll see some on the front page about arts antenna project.
	Click on that and then click through the two or three pages of photographs.
	The first photograph is one taken from the air hanging out of that helicopter.
	The second one is of some of the construction.
	You'll see the big cranes and manoliths and stuff we had here doing putting together this incredible antenna over the last several days.
	What we have here, I'm telling you right now, defies the laws of physics as we understand them.
	So we now have a 2,000-foot antenna, 1,000 each in parallel at 70 and 63 feet respectively.
	And that's what you're going to be looking at up there.
	So we've got voltage out of nowhere.
	And we're going to test and see what kind of current we can get.
	I guess we're going to go ahead and do the tests.
	I'm dying of curiosity the same way everybody else is.
	Of course, I've disposed of this voltage just by taking it to DC ground.
	And so it bleeds off before it gets in here and damages anything.
	But, you know, this is important, potentially really important.
	These photographs are worth taking a look at.
	And Lex Loanhood put them up in good high definition so you can get a pretty good look at them.
	So that's what I've been doing.
	And I'm very extremely pleased, of course, with all of this.
	And I was gambling.
	I had just read in the book about Don Wallace that he did this years ago and had spectacular results.
	And it's like the world forgot about it.
	Nobody documented it.
	Nobody knew exactly why it was occurring.
	And so they sort of ignored it.
	But I thought, you know, in every other way, this guy knew exactly what he was talking about.
	The guy was brilliant.
	So why wouldn't he know what he was talking about when it came to this?
	And so I gave it a try.
	And the results are absolutely spectacular.
	It's something to investigate.
	Anyway, we'll be right back.
	Just one more technical note here, and that is, actually, I'm asking for help.
	I have no idea why this antenna is exhibiting the strange properties it is.
	I understand that running a second wire underneath would produce a broadening of the resonance, and that has occurred as expected.
	It certainly shouldn't produce any appreciable, measurable extra gain, and it's producing 20, 25 dB at 20 or 30 reliable points of constant monitoring.
	So this is really bizarre.
	All right, so not the only bizarre thing in the world, but one in my yard, quite literally.
	If you want to see it, there's pictures of all that.
	It's fed up at 100 feet with 450 ohm, in case you want to know in your calculations, at 100 feet, and then the balance of it is at 70 or 75 feet.
	It's a monster of an antenna, monster, two and a half acres.
	But God, some of the results, unbelievable.
	I want to understand why it's working so well.
	I had a hope, you know, I was gambled that it would, but it's beyond all expectations.
	All right, now, I wrote a book called The Quickening.
	Tonight, I see the process accelerating.
	The quickening is quickening, if you want to look at it that way.
	What do I mean?
	Well, look at our weather.
	We've had the worst violent weather spring in U.S. history.
	The worst week for tornadoes in U.S. history.
	Day after day after day of destruction, tornadoes tossing the rubble of tornadoes that had been in their path a day before.
unidentified		It was unbelievable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Six earthquakes.
		No, no, no.
		Several earthquakes, three or maybe four recently, six plus in the Philippines, Japan, you know, in the areas where you would expect them, but six plus earthquakes, too many, too quick.
		And our sun.
		Cycle 23 of the sun, the sun has cycles, you know, is totally abnormal.
		We have had three X-class major flares, NNM, in the last, I don't know, two or three days.
		I mean, this is a major, major geomagnetic event.
		The Earth is being bombarded right now with particles, perhaps damaging to satellites.
		In fact, if you've been watching some of the small dish satellite stuff lately, you'll notice every now and then the picture begins to pixelate a little bit over the last couple days.
		And the reason that's occurring is because these satellites are under attack from our own sun.
		These storms are underway right now.
		As a matter of fact, they are so big that you may wish to stroll outside sometime during the course of the evening and look to the north, particularly those of you in the northern latitudes, and observe whether you can see any unusual color sky, because we're liable to have aurora.
		What has happened is liable to produce quite a bit of aurora up there.
		Really beautiful stuff to see.
		Amazing to see.
		It just ripples across the sky.
		Luke once lived in Alaska.
		I used to watch it.
		And it just ripples across the sky.
		Well, that's the sun attacking the earth, folks.
		Very Abbey normal.
		Cycle 23, very Abbey.
		And I think that relates to all kinds of other things.
		I've always related the sun activity to earthquakes in my mind, and this may bear that out.
		Disease.
		God, it's awful.
		SARS.
		People have various views on where SARS came from.
		There are people who believe it came from a cat, kind of a cat in China.
		There are other people, scientists, who believe that the Earth is constantly being bombarded by biological material of varying sorts, and that viruses are virtually raining down on us all the time.
		They come in the form of ice and things contained in ice and meteors and what have you.
		Various viruses entering the Earth's atmosphere and some of them obviously surviving to bite us in the butt.
		But I mean, now there is SARS and mad cow disease.
		That's new.
		Both virtually at our back doors as I speak to you this night in Canada.
		Right at our back door in Canada.
		Of course, Toronto is suffering because whether or not the World Health Organization has the stamp of disapproval for travel for you all to Canada, and they don't at the moment, the fact of the matter is that Toronto has been suffering because of the whole SARS thing, and the SARS thing, in my opinion, is nowhere near under control.
		They talk about various stages of control and stuff, but it's not.
		50 new cases in Taiwan today, and what they are calling phase two in Canada, you know, that means they didn't catch all the first people who were infected, and now they're going to try to catch the second group that now have been revealed to be infected.
		So this is a pretty serious thing.
		It's a very, very serious thing.
		In fact, officially, let me read you this about sun, going back to the sun for a second.
		Two solar coronal mass ejections swept past Earth today, triggering strong and ongoing geomagnetic storms because of the timing of the impacts.
		The best places to see the auroras so far have been New Zealand and southern parts of Australia.
		Skywatchers elsewhere should be alert for auroras after local nightfall.
		Even mid-latitude observers might spot some northern and southern lights.
		Because the moon is nearly new, lunar glare isn't going to be a factor.
		Another coronal mass ejection is likely en route to Earth now.
		If so, it would arrive on Friday, that's tomorrow, May 30th, and extend the ongoing geomagnetic activity.
		It's going to berserk up there.
		So these things that I see happening, this incredible weather in the midsection of the U.S., the diseases that I predicted would be part of this process, all of this is occurring and so very much more.
		It's not to mention the war, the troubles in the Middle East, and the social difficulties, all the rest of it, fitting into that one broad quickening, the name the quickening.
		It's obviously underway right now.
		And I believe the process to be accelerating.
		Now, you can handle that any way you want, personally.
		I've got another little item that I would like to read you about the war.
		As you know, I've had many, many comments in the past, although I still have one comment, and I have not seen, and this doesn't bear on how I feel about the fact we fought the war, because we did very well.
		Our troops were magnificent.
		The victory was quick.
		The aftermath is fairly predictable so far with kind of an erosion.
		You've got to wonder if that jerk is still alive over there, don't you?
		And sort of planning all of this post-occupation sniping.
		That's what's going on over there, sniping, right?
		I do wonder that.
	but of all of those issues aside, I have yet to see weapons or mass destruction.
	Now they trotted out some trailers where they said I think they said that they saw no legitimate use for them, and who knows, they might have been torn around biological this or that, I'm sure they were.
	But as of yet, nothing on the scale that we had expected.
	You know, large vats of stewing poison and gas and maybe even nuclear weapons.
	Who knows, right?
	None of that yet.
	So.
	But in surveys, Americans say, well, that's okay.
	The war, nevertheless, was justified, even if we don't find any weapons or mass destruction.
	So anyway, a couple of other items, then we'll get the phone lines open.
	I've got a very interesting guest coming next hour.
	Adair Butchkins is his name, all the way from Great Britain, assuming we can establish telephone connections.
	And we're going to be talking about one of my favorite topics, consciousness.
	Consciousness.
	Are you conscious right now?
	Well, you are.
	But do you know what that is?
unidentified		Can you define it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe like porn, though, in a Supreme Court justice, you know it when you see it, right?
unidentified		Be it sight, sand, smell, touch, the something inside that we need so much.
		The sight of the touch, or the scent of the sand, or the strength of an oak who lives deep in the ground.
		The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up from tarmac to the sun again.
		Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, to lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing, to have all these things in our memory's heart, and they use them to come just to fight.
		Yeah!
		Fight, fight that she's on, take this place, off this trip, just for me.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie, filling in for George.
		Tonight's special guest host is Art Bell.
		To talk with Art, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		East of the Rockies, call 800-825-5033.
		And west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art by calling the AT ⁇ T International Operator and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		Now for George Norrie, special guest host, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Guess that would be me.
		Howdy, everybody.
		In a moment, we're going to take some calls, open lives, anything goes, kind of calls.
		But I've got just a quick little thing on SARS, an additional item on SARS.
		Backs up what I said a moment ago.
		Lancet in Britain is where this came from.
		The Lancet, very well-respected journal in Britain, says, quote, we detected large quantities of viable microorganisms in samples of stratospheric air at an altitude of 41 kilometers.
		We collected the samples in specially designed sterile cryosamplers carried aboard a balloon launched from the Indian Space Research Organization, a data institute bloom facility in Dayaharabad, India, on January 21st, 2001.
		Now listen, although the recovered biomaterial contained many microorganisms as assessed with standard microbiological tests, we were able to culture only two, both similar to known terrestrial species.
		Our findings lend support then to the view that microbial material is falling from space.
		In a Darwinian sense, it's highly evolved with an evolutionary history closely related to life that exists on Earth.
		Now, that's pretty interesting when they've collected all of this at those altitudes, meaning apparently to them that it only could have fallen from space, microbial life, from space.
		So then there would obviously be some who would say, well, then perhaps we as a species at some point fell from space.
		And I don't really have argument with that point of view.
		It fits in even with the Bible.
		In the sense that you don't have to quite take the Bible in a total literal sense.
		In other words, God could have moved his hand in a meaningful manner.
		And the right combination fell to earth and voila, we have the beginnings of life that eventuates in the human being.
		So I never saw a great disparity of difficulty in terms of thinking of the religious angle and the scientific angle and putting them together.
		Never a bit of trouble with that.
		Nevertheless, a very interesting piece, I would say, wouldn't you, from The Lancet.
unidentified		Squad
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I thought this worthy of your consideration, too.
		I thought it was very interesting.
		Listen to this.
		Peak oil.
		The war which will not end in our lifetimes is being waged because the world is beginning to run out of Oil and gas.
		The gap between demand and production is going to increase forever.
		This is called peak oil.
		There's only enough conventional oil to last at present consumption rates for 35 years.
		Yet, demand is increasing every year.
		There are no more large reserves to find anywhere.
		The Caspian Sea bonanza, which was estimated to be at about 250 billion barrels in 1955 and 1996, has turned out to be less than 40 billion after two years of drilling.
		The world consumes a billion barrels of oil every 12 days.
		A billion barrels of oil.
		On average, every barrel will now be more expensive to pump.
		Oil fields are dead when it takes more energy to pump oil than one gets from burning it.
		That's when you can declare an oil field history.
		The only sources of cheap oil in quantity are the OPEC nations of the Middle East.
		Until they peak in about eight years, Iran has already passed its peak of production.
		Do you hear that?
		And begin to import gasoline themselves next year.
		The U.S. passed its peak of production back in 1970.
		Within 20 years, we'll be importing 70% of our oil.
		So will China.
		About 60% of all recoverable oil is in the Middle East.
		Hydrogen is too far away.
		It takes more than 3,000 gallons of gaseous hydrogen to equal even one gallon of gasoline.
		Fuel cells do not create energy.
		They simply store it.
		Producing commercial hydrogen requires both electricity and natural gas.
		It takes more energy to produce hydrogen than burning it yields.
		It is too late to change the infrastructure before economic and social crisis begins.
		That's all extremely profound.
		And if you tag this on to the other items that I just sort of ticked off for you with regard to the acceleration of the quickening, then it should be obvious to you too for what it's worth.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
		Hi.
		Hi.
unidentified		I have, well, first I'd like to congratulate you that you're well enough to be doing the show.
unidentified		I and a lot of other people have been praying for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As long as I can stand, I can do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As long as I can be straight, I can do it.
unidentified		I understand that.
unidentified		I am a bit of an amateur scientist and inventor myself, so I would like to ask just a couple of questions about your antenna.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, far away.
unidentified		What's the amperage both before and after you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's what I can tell you.
		Here's what I've done so far.
		You see, actually, initially, I regarded the incredible voltage on that antenna as a terrible annoyance.
		And so I rigged up a system that takes it essentially to DC ground outside before it ever gets into the house because I got shot too damn many times.
unidentified		I can understand that, and you don't want to throw your equipment either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
		So here's what I can tell you.
		You could take either one of the legs coming in on the 450-ohm twin lead and hit ground with it, and you'd see a good spark.
		And then if you would measure it, you know, to keep a probe from a voltmeter on it the whole time while you hit ground and let loose, there was no detectable rise time.
		In other words, that voltage was bang right there, right back there, as soon as the short was lifted.
		Yeah, I know.
unidentified		So does it then dissipate completely or does there continue to be a residual voltage once you put it to ground?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if you...
		No, I mean, it's going to ground.
		No, the moment you let it off ground, the voltage is immediately back full force.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I'm telling you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the size of the spark when you hit ground is enough to convince you that you don't want to be shocked by it again.
unidentified		Have you tried, you might want to get a cheap one to do this in case it fries it, but have you tried, instead of running it directly to ground, running it through an amp meter or a voltmeter or a multimeter, ideally?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
		I mean, all of that is next.
		The fact that the antenna is now twice the size it was, and I've got another 100 volts, and I'm 20 feet further away from the power lines than ever before.
unidentified		Yet you've got more energy, exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Man, I'm telling you right now, this is just...
		They're low-voltage, rule-type power lines.
		And there's nothing astounding out here, right?
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there shouldn't be that much inductance to provide, that much coupling to have anywhere near what we're seeing here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Assuming just for a second that it's not that, then what do you think it could be?
unidentified		The obvious first idea is that you're actually picking up static from wind.
unidentified		But from that, they don't know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Total, totally silent, quiet, no wind days, and on top of that, all the wire is insulated.
unidentified		At this point, we start to look at strange things like zero-point energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		That's what I'm trying to point out to people.
		And that Don C. Wallace did this so long ago and found similar things with regard to his antennas.
		So I'm not surprised I'm finding it now, but I'm just surprised that it hasn't been more deeply considered in science.
unidentified		Most people don't have the land to set up an array like this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
unidentified		The other thing I wanted to mention to you, being an amateur inventor, I did design basically a chair that I thought might be helpful to you.
unidentified		And if there was some way for when you're having problems with your back, would it be feasible for me just to email you a description of that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Email me a chair?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Email me a design.
		Wait a minute.
		Are you calling from South Africa?
		You got a deal for me?
		No, okay.
unidentified		A description.
unidentified		A plan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Be my guest.
unidentified		Okay, because I have family members who suffer from similar problems.
		And basically, if you can sometimes get something that can be adjustable enough that you can wind up relieving the pressure points, it can help.
		Now, I Don't know if that's your specific problem, but I know that when you have compacted discs, you can get in really bad pain sometimes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's been a while, and I feel that I'm being healed, sir.
		Oh, wonderful.
		Anyway, don't be afraid to email that to me.
		I appreciate it.
		Thank you.
unidentified		Will do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for the questions as well.
		You know, there really is no good answer to this.
		Or maybe there is, and it's just an obvious.
		I mean, I had Bonnie Crystal.
		You remember Bonnie Crystal?
		She was once on the show.
		She's a caver, and she's an incredible person on antennas.
		And she happened to be here at the house last night, just dropped in.
		Oh, she knew I was putting up an antenna.
		Big one, monster.
		So she was here just as I was finishing the work on the antenna with the crew out there, and she was here for all the testing, and she was just, and I'm telling you, she really knows what she's doing.
		I mean, she can put me in the dirt technically, and she's that good.
		And she was just sitting here shaking her head, going, holy smokes, and stuff.
		West to the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, this is Heather from Cayucas, beautiful central coast of California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
unidentified		I know you know the area well.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		I do indeed.
unidentified		The reason why I'm calling you is because every night before Coast to Coast comes on, and I've got to tell you, I miss going to bed with you, Art.
unidentified		I really do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for saying that.
unidentified		But George is great.
		We love George.
		But before the show comes on, the news comes on, and they said that they had an earthquake 3.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Washington state.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		State.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you mean just before the program tonight?
unidentified		Before the program tonight, it was on the news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not surprised.
		I'm telling you, and I'm going to say it again and again and again, I relate this really crazy activity on the sun to what the earth does.
		There's a relationship between when the sun spits, to use a rather pedestrian term, and when the earth is spit upon and earthquakes.
unidentified		So I'm not shocked to hear that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you feel anything?
unidentified		No, I haven't felt anything, and I haven't felt a good earthquake since 89.
		But I'll tell you, we're due here.
		I know we are.
		And we're right on the coast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, when I first moved to the area where I am now, which is fairly near Death Valley, I thought it was a geologically stable place.
		But as we discovered, there was a 7.3 earthquake out here in the desert two, three years ago.
		And it scared the you-know-what out of us.
		I mean, we were rocking and rolling.
		It was coming in like the ocean, like one ocean wave crashing after another.
		It was really bad here, and I thought about that 3,000-foot steel tower above me, and I thought, don't come down here, baby.
unidentified		Yeah, you think you have back pain now, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
		It'd ruin your whole day, believe me.
		It cut through this house like a hot knife through butter.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, yeah.
unidentified		We'll see what happens.
unidentified		It's great to hear you back on the radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for calling.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you now are on the Air Wildcard line, Coastal Coast Dam with Art Bell, filling in for George.
unidentified		Hello.
		I apologize for the really bad cell phone connection.
		First of all, it's Michael in Salt Lake listening to 570 KNRS Family Values Talk Radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what it is.
		Very, very good.
		Very good.
unidentified		But take you back to February of 2002.
unidentified		You had, I know that's way back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
unidentified		You had an animal communicator on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And she communicated telepathically with animals.
		I was hoping maybe you or one of your listeners would remember her name.
		I believe she was in San Francisco.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One of my listeners, I'm sure, will.
		I've interviewed, I think, sir, perhaps three or four animal communicators.
		We'll see if anybody in the audience remembers this particular one.
		But I do have something I want to say on the subject.
		As you know, I'm an animal lover.
		My wife and I are real animal lovers.
		We have four cats, and they're like four kids, as any cat owner can well attest.
		Well, for the longest time, I wanted to get on the radio, and that's something I never succeeded in doing in all the years that I was doing this program.
		I wanted an animal communicator to come on the show and really tell me, be able to tell me what an animal thinks.
unidentified		I want to know what my cat thinks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to know what my cat thinks about.
		What gives my cat joy.
		Aside from the usual obvious.
		What my cat considers.
		What my cat understands about its own being, if anything.
		Does my cat understand that it lives?
		Does my cat have, and this is what we're going to be talking about coming up in the next few hours, consciousness.
		Well, it seems like it.
		My cat has personality.
		My cat has a sense of humor.
		My cat loves to play.
		My cat knows what it likes and what it hates.
		It does hate some things.
		It has all of these traits that we otherwise would imagine are inculcated in all of us, right?
		That make us what we call conscious.
		But if they say animals, they don't quite have all of that or don't have souls or I don't know.
		You hear a lot of things.
		I heard a guy, I think George was doing an interview the other day say animals don't have souls.
		Oh, yes, they do.
		Common sense tells me animals do too have souls.
		In fact, I'm glad I'm getting a chance to respond to that.
		I think animals have souls.
		For all the reasons I just told you about a few minutes ago, they can display every emotion, every minutia of what otherwise it takes, except perhaps vocal speech.
		Don't you wish a cat or a dog could talk?
		Don't you wish your animals could talk?
		Don't you wish you really have you ever wondered, for example, what a cat sees or what a dog sees wouldn't it be wonderful to take a camera and understand the manner in which the cat's brain is interpreting the visual information it's getting and transfer it so that you could look you could put on a pair a headset or something and see the world around you exactly as your cat or dog does all the forms as they would appear to a cat or a dog or
		any other animal so that you could know what they see.
		And, of course, the next step would be knowing what they think.
		West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Okay.
		This is Ron in San Diego.
		Yes.
		I am tickled pink to talk to you.
		I'd like to talk to you about the Pan Am flying boats.
		I wondered if Pan Am flying boats could fly again.
		There's a seaplane ramp here at Coast Guard Station.
		It goes back 70 years, and we need to save it.
		And I wondered if you'd take an interest in trying to save the flying boats, the engines.
		Technology is there.
		The four seaplane ramps still exist, one in San Francisco, one in San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You want to save them for what, historical reasons?
unidentified		Yes, sir, but they can be rebuilt again.
		The engines and the sites need to have historical designations, and we need to save a little bit of history.
		San Diego's harbor is just incredible.
		We have the largest aviation history anywhere in the country yet it's been forgotten uh 20 years before the wrist brothers john jay and gummy was flying colliders from uh 20 years before the wright brothers up to 3,000 feet but the San Diego's harbor is incredible.
		I know you've been here.
		And the seaplane ramp and the Coast Guard station go back to the beginning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a beautiful place.
unidentified		Yes, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All the way around, sure.
unidentified		But anyway, my question to you is, would you study the data if I sent it through the CC radio people?
unidentified		Would you study the data and would you study the faxes?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It'd be the sea crane company.
		Well, I mean, but you've got to understand that I'm only on here, you know, in terms of you're obviously seeking coverage and support.
		Well, you're talking to a retired guy.
unidentified		I understand it, but I know what your heart is, and I know you're in love with aviation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's true.
unidentified		The harbor here is incredible.
		It's being taken over.
		They're going to fill it up at hotels.
		And the sad thing is the children of San Diego not love to know the history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		All the big boats have been here.
		Yes.
		The Boeing 314s, the China Clippers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		They've all been here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		We need to have a museum here.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I will do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Thank you, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		You send it to me.
		I'll look sure.
		And he's right.
		You know, me and aviation.
		I had so much fun.
		I mean, that aerial photograph you see of the antenna is one that I took in a helicopter and was so cool.
		They took the door off the helicopter.
		I said, come on, let's rock.
		And I'm leaning out the door with my digital camera and just having a blast.
		I do absolutely.
		He said, the helicopter pilot, Captain Vick, said, aren't you afraid of doing that?
		I said, no, not at all.
		Why should I be afraid?
		I've, you know, hung out of helicopters before.
		He's over there shaking his head.
		No big deal.
		I do, I love it.
		If I could fly, if God had given us wings, I don't think I'd ever be on the ground.
		Yes, indeed.
		The history of aviation.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Stay right where you are.
unidentified		Sweet dreams are made of this.
		Who am I to disagree?
		I travel the world and the seven seas and...
		Everybody's looking for something.
		Some of them want to use you.
		Some of them want to get used by you.
		Some of them want to abuse you.
		Some of them want to be abused.
		Don't want to rise to the bomb.
		Explanations will tell you that you came.
		In the inner of the cat.
		Explanations will tell you that you came.
		As she locks up your eyes and her And you follow to your sense of which direction Completely disappears By the blue tide walls near the market, the stalls There's a hint that she leads you to These days she says I feel my life Just like a river running through The year of the camp
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
		Filling in for George, tonight's special guest host is Art Bell.
		To talk with Art, follow the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		East of the Rockies, call 800-825-5033.
		And west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art by calling the AT ⁇ T International Operator and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		Now for George Norrie, special guest host, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey there.
		There is a moth in this room dive-bombing me.
		This is a big desert moth, and I don't know how I got in here, but he should know.
		I'm told you can make deals with insects.
		That if you keep dive-bombing me, I'm going to bring my cat Yeti in here, who will eat you?
		Good.
		Now he's just crawling along up there.
		Live and let live.
		One more dive-bombing, and it's Yeti.
		All right, this is going to be very interesting.
		We're going all the way across the ocean now, and we're going to speak with somebody named Adair Butchkins.
		And I hope I'm not butchering Mr. Butchkins' name.
		A former Merchant Navy officer and bomber command navigator, Adair Butchkins, obtained a DPHIL in astrophysics from Oxford University before working at the University of London Observatory at Mill Hill, where, get this, he wrote the software for the Tycho project carried on the Hipparchos, I think, is, satellite of the European Space Agency.
		He also spent some time in industry as principal engineer in the Advanced Systems Study Group at Rakal Avionics.
		He returned to lecture in aeronautics at London Guildhill University.
		Now he's retired.
		He's been an avid student of religion and philosophy all his life.
		His book, The Numinous Legacy, contains a wide-ranging and well-considered series of reflections on the big questions of human existence relating scientific views on cosmology, life, and consciousness.
		Aha, right down our alley.
		Consciousness.
		The conundrums of existence, ancient philosophy, and both Eastern and Western religious viewpoints.
		It gives a thoughtful yet concise exposition of this range of important issues presented in an open and dispassionate manner.
		So we reach all the way across the ocean to, I'm not really sure where.
		Adair, welcome to the program.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, hello.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm in London.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're in London.
		Okay.
		How's the weather?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		The weather is absolutely wonderful today.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		I think it's going to go up into the 80s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
		Usually when people in London say it's wonderful, that means it's foggy.
		And that's wonderful weather.
		Ah, so the 80s.
		All right.
		Anyway, great to have you on the program.
		I guess the place to begin is with your book and telling us what it means.
		What does it mean?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, The Numinous Legacy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where did the title come from?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, Numinous, as I've got in my glossary, means awe-inspiring or a sense of the divine.
		And the book is basically about how modern cosmology affects the religion.
		And all religions, but particularly the three monotheistic religions.
		These are the three religions we know best.
		That's Judaism, which is the oldest, Christianity, and Islam.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, usually it offends them.
		In the case of Christianity, most of what's learned in cosmology seems to offend Christians, right?
		I mean, after all, when the universe began scientifically versus when God pointed the finger and said, begin, let me light, right?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		But not all Christians are offended.
		The Quakers and the Anabaptists seem to take it all in their stride.
		But I think there are certain creationists that tend to look over modern cosmology and regard it as something that shouldn't be believed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Believe me, Adair, I've interviewed a large number of them.
		I'm also getting rusty because I've got to do my commercials here.
		So hold on, Adair.
		We'll get right back to you.
		Let me do this lest I forget.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're very picky about these commercials.
		You actually have to.
		So there you go.
		All right.
		Now we're unencumbered to the bottom of the hour.
		Adair, sorry about that.
		I'm just rusty.
		I didn't run it when I should have there at the beginning.
		All right, so anyway, so you're trying to reconcile.
		Do you find more areas where religion and cosmology are able to be reconciled or more areas where they are not?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, the serious scholar has only three choices really, to either reconcile, reject religion, or reject science.
		And most Christian apologists, anyway, accept the first option.
		And this is very difficult because it requires the denial of what is known as the Copernican principle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which is?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Now, the Copernican principle is very interesting.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		It basically says that there is nothing special about us or our place in the universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I buy that as one possibility.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		And it is sometimes known as the principle of mediocrity.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		It was first postulated in the 16th century by a gentleman called Giordano Bruno.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean so we're here as a matter of mediocrity just simply occurring?
unidentified		Yes, we're absolutely typical.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		We're not special.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		That is the Copernican principle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I bet it's not real popular.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not popular, but it's popular among scientists.
		Einstein used it, and he called it the cosmological principle.
		In other words, wherever you are in the universe, when you look out, on the large scale, things will look more or less the same.
		Bruno postulated it from a child when he played in the orchards and wonderful luxurious vines on Mount Vesuvius.
		And when he went to Mount Cicada, he looked back and saw that the mountain looked quite barren because it was a long way away.
		And when he went to the other mountain, the other one looked barren.
		And so he decided that things are not always what they seem, but on the large scale, things can look the same from different positions.
		And he postulated that for the whole universe.
		And Einstein took it up when he got his relativity and his cosmology and called it the cosmological principle, that wherever you are in the universe, when you look out on a large scale, everything is the same.
		And of course, That has now been added to because not does everything look the same, everything more or less is.
		All the stars are made of the same elements.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then, an extension of all this would obviously be that mediocrity is a common thing, and so that all of those stars would now, we know, all of those planets going around those stars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's almost got to be all kinds of mediocre occurrences that just spread life, mediocre as it may be, from here to there and everywhere you can see in the sky, just about.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, this is the whole point that makes it very difficult for the three monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, because they were formulated before the age of, before Copernicus decided that we went round the sun and the sun didn't go round us.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		When those religions were formulated, we were the center of the universe, and man was the whole reason for the universe's existence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, within those religions, that remains true.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, those religions remain true.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		with modern cosmology, we've now discovered that the universe is most probably infinite, and there must be a lot of intelligent life in the universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What makes us think the universe is...
		Infinite.
		Why do you say that?
		How do we know it's infinite?
		Maybe it's a big circle.
		Maybe there's a brick wall out there somewhere.
		We don't know, right?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've got a pretty good idea, Excellent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, do we?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's hear it.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, what we have to do to find out if the universe is infinite, we have to look at Einstein's general theory of relativity.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Now, if you remember, he was saying that matter has energy, E equals mc squared, which is where we get the atomic bomb from.
unidentified		Right.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		But according to his general theory, matter will deform space.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		And space decides the path that matter can take.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		So it's like a feedback.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		So if there is enough matter density in the universe, then space will take the form of an ellipsoid.
		And we then say the universe is closed.
		In this case, the universe will be finite, but unbounded, like the surface of a balloon.
		It's finite, but there's no boundary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And feedback by its nature is infinite.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is what I'm coming to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that fair?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, but I must explain that the expansion, that the universe is undergoing expansion, it will eventually collapse.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		The universe will end in a big crunch, similar to the way it started.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's another beauty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How in the world do we know that?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is what we're trying to discover.
		If there's not enough matter, density matter, to close the universe, the geometry of space will not become like an ellipsoid.
		It will take on the shape of an hyperboloid.
		In other words, it's like a saddle.
		It will curve outwards, and the universe will be infinite and expand forever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's an extremely interesting theory.
		But you see, we are now accelerating.
		And if one postulates that we began with a big bang, that was insufficient, a big bang, then everything is blown outwards.
		And like any explosion, the acceleration of particles, or us, would begin to be less, not more.
		And yet, scientists now, cosmologists, are finding that things are accelerating away from each other to the degree that we'll be all alone someday.
		I mean, virtually all alone.
		At least that's what I've been hearing of late, that we could be sort of out here by ourselves and virtually wouldn't even see many stars in the sky because they'll all be gone.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, well, now to do that, you have to do quite a lot of observing and find out whether the universe had enough matter or not.
		What we have to do is plot the magnitudes of galaxies of the same brightness against their distance.
		And the resultant curve can tell us the shape of space.
		But the problem is, it was almost impossible to find galaxies of similar intrinsic brightness.
		How do you know?
		But these latest observations that you've just mentioned used supernovas, which are calculated do have the same brightness.
		And as you say, the results seem to show that the expansion of the universe is speeding up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how do you square that with the old rubber band theory, which is what you were giving us a little while ago, that it eventually will all collapse back in on itself?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it won't.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		This is what we've now discovered.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		This was the big problem we were trying to discover.
		But all the observations so far seem to say that that will not happen.
		what will happen is the universe will expand forever.
		And this seems to have been...
		And all these seem to indicate that the universe is infinite and expanding.
		And then, of course, according to scientists generally, the chances of intelligent life developing on planets like ours is very, very small.
		But if you have a vast number of events, then even very, very small probabilities can get an awful lot of results.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, the numbers grow rather large, considering the totality of the numbers, yes.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Even the universe that we can observe, now we can only observe the universe for the last approximately 15 billion years that light has been traveling.
		According to the Hubble Space Telescope, there's something like 50 billion galaxies, each galaxy with approximately, say, an average of 200 billion stars.
		And that's just the universe we could, in principle or in theory, observe.
		and that gives an awful lot of cases.
		And so even an extremely rare case of the...
		That's right.
		And if the universe is infinite, the universe does seem to be infinite, there will in fact be an infinite number.
		As long as the probability is not zero, there will be an infinite number.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it has to be, if it goes on for infinity, then there has to be an infinite number of things filling it.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Providing the probability is not zero.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it can't be zero, otherwise we wouldn't be here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it's not zero.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We can observe that it is not zero.
unidentified		Yes.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		And this is a very interesting point, because the religions now, the sort of basis of the religions, for instance, the idea in Christianity the incarnation and redemption, if it's only going to be for us, it makes God rather local.
		And in Judaism, the idea that the Jews are the one most important race chosen especially by God seems to fall out of the system as well.
		Islam as well have the same legends of heaven and hell and all the rest of it.
		And that doesn't seem to tie in either with all these with an infinite universe.
		So we're left with not theism, not so much the religion.
		We're left with whether this whole universe was constructed by God, whether it just started on its own, or whether there's some other explanation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've always rather lived with the thought that it could be both.
		That it was a natural process guided by the Lord's hand.
		And in that way, I just get cherry-pick and be happy.
		In other words, whether it was a lightning bolt hitting the muck that caused something that became us finally to crawl from it, or whether it's God's hand that pointed the lightning, I can live with them together, those possibilities.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		But the thing is that a big argument for the case of a God, a deism, is the fact that there are very, very special factors in the universe that seem to point to the formation of life in the universe.
		I thought it was mediocre.
		Life is common, but you could not get life in the universe unless certain conditions were fulfilled.
		There has to be certain...
		Now, many of the laws of physics make life possible under the right conditions.
		And then there are the initial conditions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But going back to where you said that it's so common, at least numerically, it's going to be so common as to be mediocre.
		I'm getting lost a little bit.
		So we'll take a break here and we'll come back and I get lost easily.
		We'll try and make some sense out of this.
		We're a great mediocrity, but then there's a God that does seem like who made us.
		Do you make us mediocre?
		He wouldn't have done that to us, would he?
		Or maybe his creation of life is just sort of a thing he does, you know, every other day or so.
		Mother Earth, who over there.
		Mother planet.
unidentified		Life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Happy and happy and happy.
		I'm going to go.
		She had a place in his life.
		He never made a difference.
		As she rises to her apology, anybody else would surely know.
		Watching her go.
		The world will be.
		Can you see?
		The wise man has a power.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
		Filling in for George, tonight's special guest host is Art Bell.
		To talk with Art, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		Call first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		East of the rock is called 800-825-5033.
		And west of the rock is called 800-618-8255.
		International callers may recharge by calling the AT ⁇ T International Operator and filing 12-3-800-893-0903.
		Now, for George Story.
		Special guest host, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, George is taking a couple of well-deserved days off.
		He's been working his tail end up.
		I can tell you, a lot of people think that doing a four-hour radio program is hate nothing to just jump on there and do four hours of radio.
		Not quite.
		There's a fair amount of preparation and thought goes into it, even though it might not sound like it when you're doing it.
		There is.
		It's a lot of work.
		He's done a lot of it, and definitely deserves the time off.
unidentified		We'll get back to Adair Butchkins in just a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First, this.
unidentified		First, this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Confused.
		That's what I am.
		Adair Butchkins is my guest all the way from London.
		And at the beginning of the program, he seemed to be making the case that, you know, we are what there is.
		That's all there is, folks.
		We're fairly common, even mediocre, and life is fairly common, mediocre, and there's probably quite a bit of it out there.
		And then he hits me with, but then the case for the maker, there's a case for God.
		There is a case for God amongst all of this seemingly contradictory theory.
		I'm tempted to ask you, Adair, what your religious preferences are, but you know what?
		I'd rather just listen to you and try to figure it out myself.
		And I haven't yet.
		That's pretty interesting.
		I can't figure out where you're coming from.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		you say there's a case for the maker a case for God yes I've got um...
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		There are the scientific arguments for the existence of God and the scientific arguments against the existence of God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, really?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Now, the arguments for is basically the argument from design.
		Now, this relies upon the fact that the laws of physics are such as to make the formation of life possible under the right conditions.
		And there are conditions obtaining at the time of the Big Bang to consider.
		Many very special factors are necessary for the formation of life.
		The slight excess of matter over antimatter at the beginning, and otherwise there will be nothing.
		And when the universe was very, very hot, the background temperature was over a billion degrees, we have to have the formation of helium and hydrogen, which needs exactly 11 minutes for the temperature to drop from 6 billion to 1 billion degrees.
		Carbon is the basis of organic life, and that has to form in the interior of stars.
		So its energy level must be very close to the average energy found at the center of a hot star.
		There are many other very, very precise conditions necessary for the formation of life in the universe.
		And so the argument rests upon the question, could the universe have been different?
		Why do gravity and electricity obey a square law when it could have been a cube law and so on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Basically, it's all just so wonderful that God had to have done it.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		This is basically the argument in design, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's also the hole in the argument at the same time, isn't it?
		Because it could be just simply our perception that all is so wonderful that it just had to have been God.
		Well, maybe, you know, I live in a state, Nevada, where you have gambling, right?
		Well, every now and then somebody trots in, drops a coin in a machine, and hits megabucks.
		It happens.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		You have now got very, very astutely onto the scientific arguments against the existence of God.
		And that is based upon what is known as a many-worlds theory.
		Many cosmologists claim we are in a universe that is only one of a vast or even an infinite series of universes.
		And with such a series, there must be some that have the right conditions for life to form.
		Like your gambler that wins the jackpot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		And we happen to be living in one of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		But we just look around us and we say, holy mackerel, everything had to be exactly so or we wouldn't be here.
		Well, right.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but somebody hit megabuck, so it could be that.
		Do you have a...
		Or does it matter?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, my own theory, my own condition is I think there's definitely a system at work.
		Whether you want to call it a God or whether there's an intelligence behind it, I'm not sure.
		But I definitely think there is a system that seems to operate to make the universe as it is.
		I can't be very much more definite than that because I'm not all that definite myself about it.
		But I do believe that the laws of physics are paramount and they cannot be changed.
		And I believe the universe is orderly.
		I don't think that suddenly gravity will be reversed and we'll all fly off the world or that the speed of light will change or anything like that.
		We can't prove it, won't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's see.
		There is one condition that could begin to do that sort of thing.
		If the ever-expanding universe instead began to snap back like a rubber band, then you would be rather surprised at the backwards things that would begin to occur.
		People would be falling up and all kinds of water would be coming out of glasses.
		It would be a terrible world.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but we wouldn't survive because the contracting universe would have far Too much radiation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, it would kill us, of course, so we wouldn't get to see it.
		But I mean, we speculate here about what would happen, right?
		If we get to snap back.
		But you don't think that's going to happen?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		No.
		No.
		The other argument is the argument for the creation, for the existence of the God, is the argument from ethics.
		The universal nature of ethics give them an objective structure that can only be the result of plain creativity.
		In my book, there are letters at the end from various religious authorities.
		And Rabbi Rainer writes, I think that genuine ethical principles are by definition universal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They appear to be, don't they?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And he said, if it was alleged that in some other world there operates an ethical code by which falsehood is preferable to truth, hatred to love, contempt for life to respect, etc., he would reject that allegation.
		So the best arguments for this are in George Ellis and Nancy Murphy's book, The Moral Nature of the Universe.
		So this is the ethical argument for the existence of the deity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And fair enough, I guess.
		The argument is nothing but the same thing.
		Again, though.
		If the other side is right there, it's hanging right there.
		You can go off the other side of the cliff just as easily.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, because there's such a thing as social biology, which attempts to explain morality in evolutionary terms.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		It's an attempt to show that ethics can be entirely reduced to the biological level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just a normal evolutionary course of events and a way a society that wants to evolve and wants to improve would act, would have to act.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		But I have come to the conclusion that although there's quite a lot in my book about this and how it has come to be biologically based, but it has developed as an emergent property into something much greater.
		Although it doesn't necessarily imply the existence of a deity, it does become something more than just a biological reciprocal function.
		And there's a lot in my book about this, and I think that is quite interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how then are we to understand, if there is God, why he casts down upon us viruses, germs, illness, death, destruction, tragedy that seems to have no explanation, leaves fathers and mothers screaming there cannot be a God for this to happen, that sort of thing.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, why did God make germs?
		Well, that is interesting because, again, the three great monotheistic religions are not only pre-Copernican, they're also pre-bacterial.
		When these religions were formed, nobody knew anything about germs.
		Diseases and such were thought to be the wrath of God for doing things that you shouldn't have done.
		But of course, I think certainly for the Jews, for the progressive Jews anyway, I think the Holocaust sort of hit that argument off the end.
		I mean, a million children were murdered by the Nazis under the age of five.
		What could they have done wrong?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
		So go ahead.
		Lay an answer on us.
		In other words, whether it be that or whether it be the loss of a child that a parent can't explain and denies the existence of God because it just can't be so, it could not be a God who would be so.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Well, I personally consider if there is a God, I don't really believe in this loving God that interferes in the universe all the time.
		I think that a God is more like the God of Aristotle, if such a God exists, because it is a God that is way transcendent, way above us.
		He is completely indifferent to the universe.
		He may not even know it exists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why would a God be so indifferent to a universe?
		I mean, that's like saying a mother would be indifferent to the fate of her child, is it not?
		Or are we just thinking again somehow on the wrong scale?
		I mean, our Creator would be, in essence, our Father, yes?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or only us mere humans, mediocre humans, would think that way, I guess.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but it seems that any evidence for the intervention of God in the universe, as far as we can see, is non-existent.
		If God does exist, he doesn't interfere.
		In fact, considerations could support the basic argument, but it seems to rule out the concept of a resurrection in a new earth and a new heaven.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would seem.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Because the arbitrary changes in the laws of physics and biology for the body resurrection of the dead completely contradict the idea of an orderly universe.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		It certainly does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, actually, in the Bible, there would be nothing but one contradiction following another.
		I'm sure as you sit down and read it and consider all you have just said, you just run into one contradiction after another, don't you?
		In other words, we have God who created us and didn't care and doesn't care now.
		But, gee whiz, look at all these specific things that were said indicating he is a loving, caring, at times intervening God who will bring us all from the grave one day and so forth and so on, right?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		I personally don't believe that.
		I would concede the scientific basis of morality.
		I think it's possible to extend The principle to all values postulated in the platonic intersecting non-physical universe.
		In other words, the same ethical and ascetic values in their broadest sense will prevail throughout the physical universe wherever free-willed intelligent beings exist.
		I find the final step towards a divine presence possible but difficult.
		It's much easier to consider it in pantheistic terms, in other words, that the universe in some way is God than in the interventionist concept of the main religions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps closer to what Native Americans believe with regard to Mother Earth.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		You write about a final fireball or the universal heat death.
		What in the world do you mean by that?
		Because according to what I've been listening to, well, that sounds an awful lot like, well, I don't know, the collapse of the universe, perhaps, or the Big Bang in reverse, and yet you suggested that won't occur.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, the thing is that we've mentioned the fact that the universe seems to be expanding forever.
		So it doesn't seem that we're going to have the big crunch or the big fireball.
		That has been mentioned as a way of ending the sort of universe and reconciling it to religion.
		But according to religion, it's not just that.
		it's supposed to be us only we're supposed to the earth is supposed to change and we are all Now the universal heat death means that as the universe expands, what happens is that disorder increases.
		Now this is the result...
		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Disorder increases.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Disorder increases.
		This is the result of what is known as the second law of thermodynamics.
		Now, a gentleman called Kano introduced the laws of the thermodynamics as a way of working out how steam engines work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And do you now see in the world, collectively, disorder on the increase?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the universe, particularly in essay just the world, but the whole universe, as the universe expands, it gets cooler.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Right?
		And as it gets cooler, motion tends to stop.
		And eventually, the background temperature is now about three degrees Kelvin, three degrees above absolute Leo.
		As the universe expands, things will get cooler and cooler.
		All the stars will radiate.
		Everything will just stop.
		And in the end, there will be nothing left but black holes, white black dwarfs.
		There will be no life, no stars, nothing.
		Just a complete, endless vista of dead stars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Virtually nothing, though.
unidentified		That is called the heat death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is called the heat death?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's what it is.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		It sounds like the cold death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, why not the cold death?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Because I don't know why I haven't christened it the cold death.
		That's what I would christen it.
		But it seems to be that it's referred to as the universal heat death.
		Or I would say the universal lack of heat death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That comes up with this stuff.
		I'm sure.
		If indeed we are going to be all alone, no stars, virtually the stars disappearing in the sky, and Earth here, but all alone and cold, heat death.
		I mean, where'd that come from?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure who Christmas did.
		I think what it meant was the lack of heat death.
		But that is basically what the idea is.
		This will happen to the universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what about the concept of the steady state universe?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is to say that there was not a Big Bang because there never was a Big Bang because everything's always been here.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that is a very interesting theory, but I'm afraid that it's...
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't really hold water.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Scientifically.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Scientifically.
		Right, just hang on a minute.
		What happens is that this was a position formulated by Hoyle, the late Fred Hoyle and Nalika and Gold.
		And their idea was that there was a continuous creation of matter.
		In other words, hydrogen atoms.
		And this continuous creation of matter went to make up stars and went to make up galaxies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold that, No.
		We have to continuous occurrence of the need to take a break.
		So we'll come right back to this.
		We're talking about the steady-state universe theory, that everything has always been and always will be.
		It's all the same, and it's always been that way.
unidentified		forever you know you know where are those happy days they seem so hard to find i tried to reach for you
		but you have close to mind whatever happened to our love i wish i understood it used to be so nice it used to be so good so when you're near me darling can't you hear me SOS the love you gave me
		nothing else can save me SOS when you're gone half your line even tried to go on when you're gone though i tried half your line carry on From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
		Filling in for George, tonight's special guest host is Art Bell.
		To talk with Art, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		East of the Rockies, call 800-825-5033.
		And west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art by calling the AT ⁇ T International Operator and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		Now for George Norway, special guest host, Art Bell.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Sounds so great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I dare mention this, my guest from London, England, where I understand it's in the 80s, the sun is out, and it's a new day, as it just has begun to be here on the west coast of America.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Great to be here.
		We've been talking in the last hour, kind of in circles, getting alternative theories about how it perhaps all began, or didn't, and whether somebody had a hand in it or didn't.
		With sort of equal presentations on both sides.
unidentified		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe God just said, heights, camera, action.
		That'd be the modern day interpretation.
		Actually, it was Let There Be Light or something like that, right?
		Let There Be Light or something like that By the way, my current mystery of the universe is this antenna that I built.
		I appreciate your going to the website and perusing it a little bit, at least photographs, and you'll see the magnitude of what I'm talking about when we build here, this incredible thing.
		And I would like to know why it appears to be defying laws of physics in a couple of areas with regard to gain by about 20 dB, totally defying the law of physics.
		And then, of course, there's that stray voltage that seems to be coming from the ether.
		It could mean a lot of things.
		It really is interesting, again, with AC and DC components.
		What I'm really looking for is somebody into physics of antenna sufficiently to be able to explain this to me.
		And then, of course, everybody else as well.
		Incidentally, tomorrow night we're going to do open lines.
		Now, I don't know what form of open lines we're going to do.
		I haven't figured it out yet.
		So I'm open for suggestions as I used to be.
		If you have got some thought about the way you'd like to see open lines developed for Friday night, Saturday morning, tomorrow show, you let me know.
		My email address remains, as always, artbell at mindspring.com.
		That's A-R-T-B-E-L-L, lowercase at mindspring.com.
		Once again, here from London is Adair, and we're talking about the steady-state universe theory, virtually suggesting that everything's always been here, always will be here.
		There was no beginning, there will be no end.
		It's just always been and always will be, right?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		The consensus of astronomers measures time from the Big Bang.
		But the dissident voices of Fred Hoyle, Gold, Bondi and Narlika postulate a steady-state theory that advocates the eternal existence of the universe without beginning or end.
		There are some good reasons, observational evidence, which provide a strong reason for discounting such a theory.
		The evidence is that the universe observationally was different in the past.
		This takes the form, firstly, of radio telescope observations.
		When we look at distant objects in the universe, we are in fact looking backwards in time because of the finite speed of light.
		The more distant the object is measured by the redshift, the further back in time we see it.
		Now, if the steady-state theory were true, then the past would look exactly like the present.
		As far as these radio observations are concerned...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, after all, our observations are very macro indeed in terms of the totality of time.
		They're very macro indeed.
		So what if we're observing some simple oscillation that's part of a bigger oscillation that's never-ending?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		But that isn't the theory of the steady-state theorem, is that everything should, what is called the perfect cosmological principle, in which everything should be the same all the time.
		As far as their theory goes, this continuous creation of matter would carry on at exactly the same rate all the time.
		It seems that the universe was much more congested in the past.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed, I think things are changing.
		But as I explained, it doesn't totally rule out the steady state theory.
		I mean, there could be oscillations within oscillations and so forth.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		That is interesting because it brings us to the theory of inflation.
		That was a very interesting point.
		If you want me to go on about inflation, because that it does give some kind of oscillation, and it brings us back to the steady state theorem, but in a completely different way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You seem to be Describing all of these theories very elegantly, but I haven't yet reached and understood why you wrote about them all.
		What point you're trying to make, or what you personally believe, or what you were trying to drive home with the book that you wrote.
		What conclusions were you coming to?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've come to the conclusion that there is no evidence at all for any intervention in the universe by God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So he's there, but he's not paying attention.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, if he is there, he's not.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		He may not be there, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then even if the ultimate peril came to mankind and we faced extinction, he might be at the movies.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Possibly, yes.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		That's a possibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, when we're looking at all of this and the various religions, I note here that you feel, apparently, that Islam is less affected by modern cosmology than are either Judaism or Christianity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you feel that way?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, basically, Islam, the fundamentalist Islam, is just as much affected by modern cosmology as the other two monotheistic religions.
		But Islam can be much more transcendental than many of the other religions.
		The fundamental beliefs, of course, are affected, as I've said.
		But apart from its fundamentalist aspect, Islam does not have the same literal interpretation of events that we find in Christianity or Judaism.
		Obviously, the fundamentalists do, and that's where they get their terrorists from.
		But there are sophisticated arguments that involve special pleading that the accounts of Judgment Day, the joys of paradise, and terrors of hell are not meant to be interpreted literally, but as expressions of some higher reality transcending the world, which is a fascinating argument, but still leaves us with the belief in the intervention of God in human history, the giving of the Quran itself, for instance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, good example.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		But it doesn't negate the Copernican principle, but it's at odds with the idea of modern science, which doesn't agree with intervention.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		So although the Copernican principle invalidates Islamic fundamentalism, the mystical element, orthodox insistence on fundamentals, in effect this eliminates the idea of a personal God and brings in the conception of God as transcendent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what elements of Islam, the non-fundamentalist version, support this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would you say?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, for instance, they're quite happy to concede that if there are other planets with life on them, there would be other prophets.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Unlike Christianity, in which Jesus Christ is the one and only incarnation of God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good point.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		And it's also interesting that in Islam in ancient days, the religion of Islam says you must look for evidence and find reasons.
		And so they weren't antithetical to science.
		They liked science, and they did a lot of science originally, which is where we get a lot of our, for instance, algebra was formed by the Arabs.
		And a lot of science was brought forward by the Arabs, because they were told in their religion that they must look for reasons and evidence.
		Whereas the early Christians were told that as shortly there's going to be the end of the world, don't waste your time trying to find reasons for things.
		Just attend to your religion.
		So that's one of the reasons why Islam is less affected by modern cosmology.
		Although certainly the fundamentalist part of it is.
		Interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me ask you about something that's very close to my center of wonderment in this universe, and that's about consciousness.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We were talking about consciousness in the first hour, a little bit.
		And I heard somebody come in this program, and I don't recall who, and it doesn't matter, in the last week or so or something or another, said animals have no soul.
		Now, that's perhaps a little bit of a leap from a discussion of consciousness, but maybe it isn't.
		I'm not sure.
		Define for me what you believe consciousness to be.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, we could understand the universe, well, it would be able to understand the universe much better if there wasn't such a thing as consciousness.
		The stars would shine, and all the laws of physics would take place, and everything would happen without any life or consciousness, and it would be much easier to understand.
		The only problem, of course, is that we wouldn't be here to understand it.
		So consciousness is the most amazing...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		...defined consciousness for me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is consciousness, Adair?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Um...
		Well, this is the subject of many arguments.
		What is consciousness?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it self-awareness?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		In other words, that's part of it.
		But what we have here is we have various schools of thought.
		Now one school of thought...
		Do you want to know what I think?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think consciousness is?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		I think consciousness has arisen from what I consider to be a parallel universe.
		Really?
		Yes, I consider there to be a parallel universe which has a boundary or an intersection with our universe.
		Now, the physical universe with its atoms and its protons and its various and its stars and all the laws of physics is intersected by a parallel universe which has ethics and mathematics and aesthetics and it's intersected through consciousness throughout the universe.
		This is what I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That there is a universal consciousness.
		You think there is a consciousness beyond the individual self-awareness.
		You think there is a greater collective consciousness?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well I think that there certainly could be.
		And I think that the...
		I mean, we know that mathematics is something beyond ourselves because certain aspects of mathematics have been discovered before their actual practical applications.
		For instance, if you take a cone and cut it in various ways, if you cut it horizontally straight, it divides it into a circle.
		Do you see what I mean?
		Yes.
		And if you cut it one way, you get straight lines.
		Cut it another way, you get a different...
		And it's only lately we've discovered that these sections not only describe the various orbits that comets and planets and stars make, it also describes a lot of the electrical theory as well.
		Now, Apollonius didn't know that when he was investigating conic sections.
		And so it seems that mathematics is definitely something beyond us.
		It's not something that we've invented.
		And I say that as part of the evidence that there is some kind of platonic universe intersecting through consciousness, where all the things that we think of, like beauty and love and compassion and justice and so on, exist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dare, do you imagine that consciousness could be a force?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That a directed consciousness could in fact be a force in the universe, that if many minds wished for something to occur, that it might occur?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't think so.
		I mean, if you take two people that want something to occur, it's no more likely to occur than if one person wants it.
		Same if you play ten.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, here's something then for you to chew over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are aware, no doubt, of the academic institution called Princeton, right?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Princeton is doing a series of experiments now in which they have taken what they call eggs.
		Now, these eggs really are computers.
		Yes.
		And they generate random numbers.
		And these eggs are located geographically all around the world, in major cities and capitals and all around the world.
		and they just sit sit out there spitting out random numbers but i have a prison a number of years ago began And they began looking at a correlation between these eggs suddenly reporting a non-random response from the computers in certain areas and corresponding world events.
		For example, when 9-11 occurred, the Twin Towers came down and off the charts.
		These computers that were spitting out random numbers began to get more and more less and less random, if you'll pardon me.
		In other words, something happened.
		When major world events occur, there is some sort of effect on these eggs or computers, if you will, and then to the master computer.
		In other words, they're registering these incredibly large world events.
		Now, what do you suppose they might be measuring, Adair?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it completely baffles me because I don't see how there can be any actual connection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but there seems to be, and they've got quite a bit of history now with this, watching the 9-11 event, but that was just the most recent, stunning example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Other large events have been also registered, and so there's some collective force out there, obviously, acting on these random number generators and causing a change.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I also have the theory that there's no such thing as random.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, that may be so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		You think you're generating random numbers, you're not.
		You're not.
		And it may have something to do with that.
		I can't explain that.
		But as far as actual consciousness is concerned, I can explain the various theories that people have.
		But it is very strange because when you think of it, if you read stories about statues in a story, you have a statue, and then the statue suddenly comes to life.
		Well, we all think, you know, this is just a story.
		But in fact, if you go over about three or four billion years, it's true, because here you have a universe with completely non-conscious elements, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and so on, hydrogen.
		And you put them all together and suddenly you're finding a living person with the sense of identity who can think, how on earth can these conscious thoughts arise from non-conscious material?
		That is the real question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		then based on most of what I think I've heard you say, wouldn't prayer, you know, praying to God, wouldn't that be more or less a total waste of time, Adair?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I don't think, even Rabbi Rayner doesn't seem to think that the petitioner
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, except, of course, when you come to I mean sometimes people think of meditation as a form of prayer and I think meditation can uh help one's mental state well that's self-help idea that's that's self-help that's not the same as oh please save my baby and then God intervening save your baby it's not the same thing right no because the whole of evolution depends upon cruelty and agony really doesn't it I
art bell ▲ ● ▼		all the other than a picture real heretic you know and they really are have a listen now hold on we're at break point here that's all right they can think that of you they thought that many of my guests sorry i'm art bill here for uh...
unidentified		for george who's taken a couple of days off he can use will be right back nancy once that never reaching the end letters i've written never meaning to send beauty i'd always miss with these eyes
		before just what the truth is all the times have come but now they're coming the seasons don't feel
		the reaper no do the wind the sun and the rain we can be like day come on baby don't feel the reaper take my hand don't feel the reaper we'll be able to fly don't feel the reaper don't feel the reaper go to the reaper go to the reaper go to the reaper go to the
		reaper and worldwide on the internet this is coast to coast a m with george nori filling in for george tonight's special guest host is art bell to talk with art call the wild card line at area code 775-727-1295 the first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222 east of the rockies call 800-825-5033 and
		west of the rockies call 800-825-5033 international operator and dialing toll-free 800-8930903 now for george nori special guest host art bell i think i'm beginning to get this very interesting interview almost a dare almost a presenter of theories for and against the concept of god and creation of really what we're talking about here uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		we're talking about ancillary things as well but they all relate back to that so i think that's what we're talking about whether or not there really is a should i use the word conscious god no a creator that is involved in our everyday lives in any way at all or perhaps not at all and i think that's really the center of what we're talking about we'll get right back to it stay right there
unidentified		uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		well throughout this interview i've been listening carefully to it there and trying to discern actually where he was coming from vertical in the beginning because he was just sort of a presenter of alternative theories but now i think i'm beginning now to grasp where he is coming from and why he wrote this book and what he's trying to suggest which is a little radical on i'm sure but that's okay uh...
		as a matter of fact uh...
		this next question really uh...
		is going to fit uh...
		fit right in i think and uh...
		by i got a but one and i confirm my theory i mean they're really uh...
		there is i listen to you it seems to me that you're being very careful most political politically careful in what you were saying to us when really were trying to suggest that this is what you believe it may not agree with a lot of religion but is what you were trying to prove and and uh...
unidentified		um...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		uh...
		carries along with you toward uh...
		toward leaving this that there is there is indeed perhaps a god but that he's non interventionist uh...
		totally to the point that we destroy ourselves and he wouldn't even notice that that that's really your theory of our creator and creation is that kind of the bottom line well um...
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		that is what i think is is a possible in fact i would i would even call it i would call it a system a system uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		for example you believe that uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		the creator or our creator could be a super
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		civilization another an alien race it could be another mediocre perhaps grown a little better society somewhere that that created us rather than than the God force itself yes well that's interesting it's not actually something that I believe but it's a theory that I've read and I find it quite interesting well it's because it fits in with what I think you do believe right it's a paper actually was written by Edward R. Harrison of the University of Massachusetts
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		he addresses a connection between black holes and intelligent life he proposes that our universe was created by superior intelligences existing in another physical universe in which the constants of physics are finely tuned and therefore essentially similar to our own now why would we suppose that physics would be a constant in another universe certainly we know they are or believe them to be with in this universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But in another universe, we could have a completely separate law of physics, could we not?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		physics have to be fine-tuned for life to exist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Adair.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Our life, as we discussed earlier, our life is either real lucky that it's just right for us, or we're here because of that random fact.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, based upon carbon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but perhaps in an alternate universe, there's some slugs moving about that have developed some form of intelligence and function within this other law of physics, just spiffy.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's an interesting point, but that isn't the theory that Harrison has written.
		Harrison assumes that life is like our own.
		And the reason is that these people in this other physical universe, which are like our own, very similar to our own physics, have actually created our universe and other universes to be like their own, so that other people could arise in them.
		Now, it seems more like science fiction than science, but it is published in the quarterly journal of the Royal Astronomical Society, and so it's obviously taken seriously by its editors and referees.
		Harrison gives a short description of the fundamental constants of physics and some examples of how only slight variations could rule out development of life.
		He then examines the concept that such an intricate network of interlocking critical relations appears to be evidence that the universe has been designed at a fundamental, not superficial, physical level for the benefit of our organic life.
		This would point to deliberate creation.
		Now, he explores a possibility of creating a universe spanning 100 billion light years containing billions of galaxies.
		And he quotes some work by some scientists, Fari and Guth, who consider how one day it may be possible to form a small black hole of about 10 kilograms mass.
		Now, you know, a black hole is something so dense that even light can't escape.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, they're actually working on that right now, Darren.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And anything that gets anywhere near it is sucked into it.
		So how they could do it in the laboratory, I haven't the faintest idea.
		But he says, by careful arrangement, this black hole has an interior that inflates, not in our universe, but in a re-entrant bubble-like space-time that is connected to our universe by an umblical cord originating from the black hole.
		The black hole evaporates and severes the link with the new universe.
		This new universe will inherit the same constants of the parent universe and another life-bearing universe comes into being.
		Harrison considers that beings of our limited intelligence can dream up wild and implausible schemes for making universes, then beings of a much higher developed intelligence might actually possess the technique for achieving it.
		This also explains why man is able to comprehend the universe.
		He was deliberately programmed to do so, not by a supreme being, but by a supreme civilization whose intelligence is far in excess of his own.
unidentified		Do they care about us?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Now, I personally don't believe that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you don't?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, again, you are a great presenter of theories.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'm most curious what you do believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, the purpose behind the book that you have written.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Surely in the presentation of these various series, you have come to some conclusions, have you not, that present the reader with conclusions I've come to.
		The conclusions I've come to is my own view, as I said before, is first of all that the universe is orderly.
		Events occur according to the laws of physics and mathematics.
		As I said, we cannot prove tomorrow gravitational attraction will not suddenly change or the speed of light will change.
		I do not believe that the universe is arbitrary.
		I believe it follows rules and it's orderly.
		Now, this consideration could support an argument for God, but it seems to rule out the concept of the resurrection, a new earth and a new heaven, as a specific event in space-time rather than transcendent imagery.
		As I said, the arbitrary changes in the laws of physics and biology necessary for bodily resurrection of the dead contradict the idea of an orderly physical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So again, you seem to allow for the evidence of a creator, but one that doesn't care.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		However, with modern technology, we could introduce a messianic age of peace and plenty now if we affected the necessary sociological transformation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, but the very thing that generally gets away, excuse me, prevents that process from continuing or the road peace being paved, I don't know how you want to look at it, are the very religions that we've been discussing.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, precisely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, when you think...
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		When you think of how much money has been spent and how many resources have been exhausted in the 50-year battle between the Jews and the Arabs in the Middle East, if that money had been spent on social welfare, they could all be living like movie stars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as you look at the present situation in the world from any point you wish, ecologically, Socially, from a religious point of view, political point of view, our behavior, whatever it is you want to look at right now, when you look at the totality of things the way they are right now, do you think we're going to go down that little golden path you just talked about?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or do you rather think that, well, we're going to come to a heat death?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		I'm afraid I'm not an optimist.
		I know most Americans are optimists and like optimists, but I'm personally not really much of an optimist.
		I don't think we are.
		What is the future of humanity?
		We could meet our end before the demise of planet Earth in various ways for a start.
		It could be a drastic change in the atmosphere or climate.
		The greenhouse effect could make the Earth uninhabitable for oxygen-breathing creatures.
		Other alternatives are a deadly plague, which spares no one, a thermonuclear conflict, destruction by an alien invasion, very unlikely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nevertheless, let us count the ways.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		None of these last three possibilities seems likely.
		Even the worst plagues find some resistance.
		And although an atomic war could have terrible consequences, it wouldn't kill everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My Nash rule out the possibility of an engineered little killer virus of some sort that would be effective, more effective than those which die of their own accord.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		That's possible.
		And I don't think there'll be an alien.
		Although dear to the hearts of UFO spotters, an alien invasion could only be launched from within our own galaxy.
		And as we've seen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, now, while we're on the subject of UFOs, let's stop for a second.
		I saw one.
		I really saw one, Adair.
		Close up.
		A big, big triangle moving, not flying, floating, not flying, Adair.
		I saw this.
		My wife saw it.
		It was close up.
		I could have thrown a rock at the damn thing if I hadn't been in shock.
		I saw one of these.
		Now, they are something.
		They are not nothing.
		I saw this with my own eye.
		There's no question.
		It wasn't foggy, wasn't blurry.
		It was perfectly clear.
		And without gravity, it floated right above my head and then on out across the valley in which I live.
		Now, these things are real.
		There's something out there.
		What do you make of all these UFO reports?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know because I've never seen one, but the UFO is just an unidentified flying object, which is perfectly normal.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		What I don't believe is I don't believe they're really from an alien civilization.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why is it not possible that somebody who was some race that was originally just another mediocre bunch of protoplasm running about got a little better than mediocre and made it here?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not saying it's impossible.
		I'm saying it is possible, but I would have thought it was extremely unlikely because the sparseness of intelligent life in the universe.
		But of course there's nothing to say that rotatings.
		Now I've got the paper here.
		In my book I've mentioned a paper submitted to the Observatory.
		Now that's the journal of the Royal Astronomical Society in 1991 by someone called Duncan Steele.
		It described a 10-meter object designated 1991 VG on a heliocentric orbit, an orbit around the Sun, that made its closest approach to Earth in December 1991.
		Jim Scotty discovered it with the Space Watch Telescope at Kitt Peak on the 6th of November 1991.
		Its very Earth-like orbit and rapid brightness fluctuations argued for it being an artificial body rather than an asteroid.
		None of the handful of man-made rocket bodies left in heliocentric orbits during the space age had purely gravitational orbits returning to Earth at that time.
		In addition, the close distance observed may be interpreted as a controlled rather than a random encounter with Earth.
		It could thereby be argued that 1991 VG is a candidate for an alien probe observed in the vicinity of our planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And when was this?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Sorry?
unidentified		When was this that Kit Peake observed this?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		6th of November 1991.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		1991.
		Now, you know, that's a new one on me.
		I had never heard this, Adair.
		And what, pray tell, did Kit Peake do with this observation?
		Did they call other observatories, confirm it?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Did they?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, they published it in the Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how was that greeted?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		And it's read by scientists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I understand.
		That's why I asked.
		How was that greeted?
		Was there great excitement?
		My God, they are here or what?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Everybody just read it and said, oh, how interesting.
		And that was about it.
		The paper investigates the different probabilities of the nature of this object.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got to love our scientists.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		It seems that the probability that it is a returning mad main rocket or spacecraft is extremely low.
		It's possible.
		Similarly, the probability of being a natural asteroid is also low.
		So the paper concludes that the observations provide prima fascia evidence that it is a candidate alien artifact.
		The alternative explanations that it was a peculiar asteroid or a man-made body are both estimated to be unlikely, but require further investigation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, gee, that's quite a statement to make, isn't it?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, they're saying, more or less, this was probably an alien probe or spacecraft.
		It's not a natural thing.
		It's not an asteroid.
		We here at Kitt Peak believe that we've seen a spacecraft.
		I mean, let's get right down to it.
		That's what they're saying.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		If it was a return man-made rocket, it was very much a fluke that was observed.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		And the normal progress of science requires we consider the possibility of some other origin and the next near passage is calculated to be in 2041.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see, so it's going to be a while before we get another look.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and I won't be around, I'm afraid.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Um, but uh, yes, I think that is very interesting, but no, there was no great excitement about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Um, should it come by again, which you say it will in 2041, and the world, uh, based on what you just read, focuses all of the large telescopes upon it, and we do decide, wow, this is not from Earth, it is alien, and it's real.
		Uh, just as a matter of curiosity, Adair, how do you think the human race will react to such news?
		Do you think people go, oh well, or ho-hum, or oh my God, or we're all going to die, or what do you think?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, no, I think there'll be a lot of excitement, and there'll be great headlines everywhere, and I think your program will probably come on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, one of the first, no doubt.
		Adair, hold on, please.
		We're at a break here at the top of the air.
		When we come back, we'll talk a little bit about time as it relates to all this.
unidentified		See what's become of me.
		music
		See what's going on, an angel's kissing spring.
		My summer wine is really made from all these things.
		I walk in town on Silvert Bird Jingle A song that I had on its name.
		to just a few.
		She saw my silvers burn and said let's pass some time.
		And I will give to you Summer Wine, Summer Wine Strawberry, Cherry Ten Tree.
		My summer wine is really made for all these things.
		Coast to Coast and worldwide on the Internet.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
		Building in for George, tonight's special guest host is Art Bell.
		To talk with Art, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		East of the Rockies, call 800-825-5033.
		And west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art by calling the AT ⁇ T International Operator and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		Now for George Norrie, special guest host, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An angel's kiss in spring, not in Adair Butchens universe, not in the summer or the fall or the winter or any other time either.
		No angels to kiss.
		Anyway, we're going to turn the phone lines over to you in a moment, and this should be very interesting.
		So if you'll just stay right where you are.
		Oh man, this is weird.
		I mean, this is really weird.
		What we're experiencing right now, ladies and gentlemen, let me explain to you what's going on.
		Dear Butchens in Great Britain, I'm explaining to you at the same time.
		You may recall at the beginning of the program, I told you all that we are being attacked virtually by the sun right now.
		That our sun is throwing particles at us as a result of some really major flares.
		I mean, we're just having some incredible flares right now.
		I just looked at the A index, which is 34.
		The K index is 5.
		We're having a major geomagnetic storm.
		And I told the network folks at the beginning of the program that there had been satellite dropouts on TV, and we're more of a narrow band than TV, and that we could have dropout problems on our own.
		And sure enough, I got a call during the break saying, hey, we were off for 90 seconds.
		We lost the satellite for 90 seconds.
		Then I got another call just as we came out of break saying, well, hey, you're off.
		You're not on at all.
		And so I said, okay, you know what?
		I'm going to roll some music.
		Let me know when we're back on.
		And that's what I did.
		And here we are back on.
		And I'm telling you right now that what we're experiencing, almost certainly, I just checked the uplink numbers and looked at everything and everything's just fine.
		We're transmitting fine.
		But we're being bombarded so hard from the sun right now.
		And there are some will say, well, the sun's not out.
		How could that be?
		You see, the sun erupts and then the earth gets hit later.
		In other words, the sun spits and 90 million miles later, 91 million miles later, we get hit.
		And we're being hit right now with this very large geomagnetic storm.
		So that had us off the air.
		And for all I know, we could come and go some more.
		But that's the situation.
		So if you noticed a discontinuity in the radio program for 90 seconds, and then as we came back, that's what's going on, folks.
		Certainly, that's the best guess.
		We will notice some power Interruptions, and certainly the power grids across the U.S. are being affected by what's going on right now.
		And as I told you at the beginning of the program, you're going to want to watch for Aurora, which could appear in the night sky.
		Usually, you're going to watch the northern skies, depending on where you are, possibly even the southern skies.
		Even as far south a latitude as we're in here in the desert, we were able to see blood-red skies just a few years ago when we had a similar development.
		But to have that in the middle of cycle 23 right now is just astounding.
		I mean, what's going on with the sun right now is absolutely astounding.
		And the dropouts you heard in the program are due to exactly that.
		Incredible phenomena here in the middle of the night.
		So let's see if Adair Butchens is still there.
		Are you there, Adair?
		Yeah, I'm still here.
		Remarkable events really going on right now in the world.
		We're experiencing a gigantic geomagnetic storm.
		Not my fault.
		Well, no, I'm not blaming this one on you.
		Don't worry about it.
		But it is an amazing thing, actually, to observe, Adair.
		Just a couple of things that I want to cover in our interview before we continue.
		And one of them is time.
		I wanted to ask you, since we're talking about such large issues as the Big Bang, the nature of the universe, the nature of a creator, if there is one, and all the rest of it, then a very good question with regard to parallel universes and physics and what we believe right now is time.
		I wonder if you have any comments on the nature of time.
		Do you think time is merely a man-manufactured thing that we watch?
		Or do you think that there's more to the nature of time that we understand, that someday man will be able to perhaps move within the time stream, either forward or in reverse?
		Or is this just something that we made up and we watch clocks tick, and so it's really time is just our invention?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's an interesting question because time is part of the whole construct of space-time.
		Space has three dimensions, and time is another dimension.
		By the way, before I carry on, you have my book there, do you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do in front of me.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you want to check on that report to the Royal Astronomical Society, if you look at the bibliography under Steele, you'll have the reference and you can get yourself a copy of the magazine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Under Steel, huh?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and the bibliography.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Very good.
		Steele, Duncan.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Yes, time is looked upon as one of the dimensions of space.
		Now, what is interesting is that there's a theory, it's only a mathematical theory, by Stephen Hawking, that the universe did not actually have to have a beginning.
		And what he does is he takes the problem of the Big Bang and he goes right to what he calls the instantum, the beginning of the universe, and he goes to imaginary time.
		Now, when you take, this becomes a bit mathematical, I'll try and explain it simply.
		When you take the coordinates of where anybody is, that tells people where we are in time and in space, time has a quantity called i in front of it, which is the square root of minus 1.
		This all comes out in the mathematical equation.
		I won't try and explain it, certainly not over the telephone.
		But Hawking says that right at the beginning of time, time itself becomes imaginary.
		By imaginary, I don't mean something that you just imagine.
		Imaginary means something multiplied by the square root of minus one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you have imagined, Adair, that there was time prior to the Big Bang?
		In other words, there was space, but there was nothing in it.
		Then we had the Big Bang, and there were things, and you could measure momentum and movement, one object against another, and then calculate the passage or see the passage of time.
		But prior to any physical being, there could be no time as we understand it.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't think there was any time before.
		But to go back to Hawking, he maintains that the quantum fluctuations, right at the beginning of the universe, he has time going into imaginary quantity.
		It becomes multiplied by the square root of minus one.
		When you fit that into the Einstein equations of special relativity, you suddenly find that time, the three dimensions of space and one of time, become four dimensions of space, and time vanishes.
		And so the universe wouldn't have any beginning.
		It would just be there.
		It would just exist.
		And then you get the fluctuation, time would come in later on.
		This is basically Hawking's mathematical idea that there's no actual proof of it.
		There are certain things it can predict, which seems to work out, but this is one idea of time, that the universe itself didn't actually have a beginning.
		It just existed.
		And now I realize this is rather a difficult sort of a concept to get over on the telephone.
		Well, I don't know.
		Am I being very obscure?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, concepts are made for this kind of ability to communicate, Adair, so don't worry about it.
		This is exactly what radio is for, so we can explore these concepts.
		Do you embrace that?
unidentified		Do you agree with Hawking?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, not really.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not really.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		No, because Penrose, who's another great mathematician, states that he actually believes in the Big Bang.
		But the trouble is, nobody really knows what went on with the Big Bang.
		What we do have is a theory of inflation, which is also quite interesting, which can take us back to the steady state universe again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I thought it took us back to the Carter administration.
		Listen, I've got a lot of people that want to talk to you and ask questions.
		And so, you know, I've dominated you.
		Let me bring in a few callers and let's see what they ask you, all right?
		All right, good.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Derek Butchens and Arpell.
		Hello.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Are you there?
		Going once.
		Going twice.
		Gone.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ader Butchens.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, good morning.
unidentified		This is Eric in Niagara Falls, New York, and you're coming through loud and clear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I take it that you heard the slight disruption that we had there.
unidentified		90-second dropout overlaid by a Nori interview came in vocally and came on very well.
unidentified		Happened twice during the interview.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really strange stuff, but that's from our son, I would wager.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At any rate, sir.
unidentified		It's worse than skip distance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		I have a question for Dr. Butchen.
		I'm sorry.
		Regarding the concept of increasing entropy or decreasing order, I'm not a physicist by profession or training, but several years ago, I've been very intrigued by the question.
		I consulted with a specialist in the area of low-temperature metaphysics at the local university.
		I was working on the philosophy of the problem.
		I was told that the concept of entropy is only valid cosmologically within a closed system.
		Could you please comment on the current status of that concept and on what thinkers like Ilya Prigogine and other theorists currently believe about the status of the universe as a closed or open system?
		And I do have a follow-up question.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, in fact, you couldn't get...
		This is a different kind of closed and open.
		But the universe, there's nothing more closed than the universe.
		It is a completely closed system.
		Regardless of its geometry, there's nothing extraneous coming into the universe.
		This is what it means by a closed system.
		In other words, if you pour hot water onto ice, the ice will melt.
		You won't get more ice forming and the water getting even hotter unless you have a refrigerator or a kettle suddenly put in there.
		So what it means is that entropy always increases in the closed system and the universe is completely closed.
		There's nothing coming in from outside the universe to change it.
unidentified		Unless, of course, you believe that God is going to do it.
		My follow-up question concerns what amount of experimental evidence is there to support the concept that the universe is indeed closed?
		Or is that endemic to the nature of the two geometries you mentioned?
		It can have to be closed.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		It's complete.
		Are you talking now about geometry or about entropy?
		Yes.
unidentified		I guess you're talking about like Riemannian manifolds and so on.
		Yes, yes.
		Is it necessary, I guess I'm saying, like a proposition that the universe is considered closed no matter what geometry might prevail?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		No, the universe is only closed if the geometry is ellipsoid.
		If the geometry is hyperbolic, the universe is open and infinite.
		Also, if it's exactly critical, in other words, if there's neither hyperbolic nor ellipsoid, it's called flat and it still becomes infinite and expands forever.
unidentified		And would the balance of current experimental data indicate that it was indeed closed, like you said, the hyperbolic?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		No, it indicates that it is open and that it's hyperboloid because the universe is actually accelerating.
		Its expansion is actually accelerating.
		It indicates an open infinite universe.
unidentified		Is there not some contrary data to that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, I've told it there.
		I bet you're going to find out there is.
		Is there not some contrary data?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		No, all the evidence, even I'm not talking, this is the latest one using supernovas, but certainly all the latest measurements from people, scientists concerned, have always produced a critical density less, a density less than the critical density.
		They've all indicated an open universe of one sort or another.
		And there seems to be no evidence that the universe is in fact closed.
		And something may turn up, I don't know.
		But at the moment, all the observations, both the galaxy counts and major galaxies in the clusters and so on, and also the cosmic microwave background all suggest that the universe is open.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, perhaps time for one quick one.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Adair Butchens.
		Lowe.
unidentified		Good morning, Mr. Butchens.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		It's great to hear you both.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		The crew from Undernet Coast to Coast Chat Room sends a huge hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A huge hello back.
unidentified		Mr. Butchens, I understand that the universe is expanding and that it's growing faster and faster.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		That is the latest observations.
unidentified		Yes, this reminds me of gravity.
		Like things falling towards Earth.
		My question is, what do you think we're expanding towards?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		We're not expanding towards anything, we're just expanding.
		It's rather difficult.
		We talk about the size of the universe and so on.
		We're talking about the observed universe, the universe that we could observe from the Big Bang to the present day, which is as far as I could travel.
		But of course, the universe is infinite.
		It has always been infinite.
		But it's still spanning.
		It's a very difficult concept to grasp.
		A universe that was very dense is infinite.
		And it's expanding.
		And it's still infinite.
		It doesn't expand into anything.
		Space itself is expanding.
		I'm sorry if this sounds obscure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not obscure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's very hard to grasp.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's very hard to grasp, but I don't know about obscure.
		All right.
		Hold on.
		Hold it right there, please.
		And I do.
		I'm trying my hardest, too, to grasp all of this.
unidentified		Always expanding and infinite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
		I'm Marcel.
		And assuming the sun lets us do it, we'll finish this program up tonight.
		We're really getting bombarded out there.
		That's the way things work sometimes.
		I'm Margo.
unidentified		In the night, my body's weak.
		I'm on the run, no time to sleep.
		I'm about to ride by like a wind to be real again.
		And I've been so long.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		I'm free, I'm talking to many things.
		Oh, my brother's never mind about.
		You shouldn't worry after that ain't no crime.
		Cause if you get wrong, you get right next time.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
		And now, filling in for George, here's special guest host, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It really is a remarkable night, isn't it?
		Of all the nights I could pick, we're getting slammed in a giant geomagnetic storm, and it's slamming our satellite.
		It just figures, doesn't it?
		My guest is Adair Butchin's very, very, very interesting discussion about the nature of everything, really.
		And that is what we're talking about, you know.
		It's the nature of everything.
		We're talking about everything that is and how it became.
		I guess it's really what makes the world go round.
		and we'll continue with the there in a moment or or The book is Numinous Legacy by Adair Butchens.
		I bet that you could probably get it at your favorite online or offline bookstore.
		It's probably everywhere.
		Is it mostly everywhere now, Adair?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I think it's at Barnes & Noble.
		Yeah, all the usual suspects.
		But it's certainly on Amazon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Amazon.com, of course.
		of course.
		All right.
		Very good.
		All right.
		Back to the phones.
		Many people wait.
		First time caller align, you're on the air with Adair Butch and Slow.
unidentified		Good evening, gentlemen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
unidentified		Hi, I'm calling from Arkansas.
unidentified		I'm on my way from Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Earlier in the program, you had mentioned that you believe that there is a parallel universe of consciousness that intersects with the physical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Yes.
		Is that correct?
		But at the same time, you don't believe in the power of prayer?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		That's quite right.
		I wouldn't say I believe exactly.
		I've postulated an idea of a parallel universe, but no, I don't think any real results.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy, are you about to get an example?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so.
unidentified		No, no, no, not an example.
		I'm not going to give an example, but I'm going to ask a question.
		Is the human body basically water and electricity and carbon?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		That is basically what the human body is constructed of.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		But we have this consciousness, which is incredibly interesting and amazing.
unidentified		That's right.
		And is it not possible that the consciousness controls the electricity?
		And when we direct that electricity, now I'm not saying necessarily to God or anything, but if we decide something in our mind and we, quote unquote, pray for it, we're directing that electrical energy that we ourselves contain to make something happen.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're talking about free will now.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		No, no, I'm not talking about free will.
unidentified		I'm talking about specific saying this is going to happen and willing it to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, she's talking about exactly the same thing I was talking about earlier, Adair.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The projection of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you can mix it up with prayer if you want to.
unidentified		That's what I call it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's the same thing.
		Thank you, dear.
		It's the same thing.
		And there are, and I would suggest some reading to you, Adair, with regard to the experiments going on at Princeton.
		I mean, we all like science with respect to this.
		It's kind of hush-hush stuff to some degree, but it is, in fact, going on.
		There have been a number of studies, very scientific studies, about the power of prayer.
		Some of those I would imagine you'd be aware of or would have heard of using control groups and that sort of thing.
		In what manner would you dismiss those?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, one I've heard of is the one given by Stannard, in which you have a control group who are being prayed for and another group that wasn't being prayed for.
		Well, I would discount that entirely.
		This is not quite the same as trying to make things happen by your will, by your electricity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why is it not the same?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, because this is a prayer to God, to an outside being.
		And of course, if God does exist as they say he does, and omnipotent and omniscient, he'd know all about these control groups anyway.
		So it's not really...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		perhaps even in a mass way, to achieve, to get something done.
		You know, people attach the word prayer to it.
		That's fine.
		We can leave it off for the sake of this discussion.
		How do you know there is not a force capable of being projected beyond the physical?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		But of course, obviously, evidence I can't prove.
		I don't know.
		It comes to a matter of faith.
		I mean, in science, we have faith that we believe in the evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Science doesn't really like faith.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Faith means believing in something that you cannot prove.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Believing in something that you know isn't true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Science, on the other hand, really likes proving things, and it likes repetitive experiments that yield the same results time after time.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but it does rely on the faith that we can believe the evidence of our senses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, indeed.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		And that is faith, because we can't prove that the outside world is exactly as our senses say it is, but it's a reasonable position to take.
		And also, our evolutionary survival depends on the fact that the outside world is at least approximately as we see it is.
		But that is definitely the faith of science, that we have faith that we do believe the evidence of our senses, then we can't prove it because we can't climb outside of our mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a lot of people have faith in science.
		Perhaps misplaced.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Adair Butchens.
		Hello.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's you and I saying hello, Adair.
		We're trying for a third person here.
		Hello there.
		Are you there?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you are there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in New York, Barrier, Louisiana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air.
unidentified		By saying parallel universes, aren't you saying extra dimensions also?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's another way to look at it.
unidentified		Sure.
unidentified		By saying you said God doesn't intervene in man's affairs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what he said.
unidentified		How do you know he doesn't intervene?
		I mean, just because there is bad in the world, how do you know that he's not doing it?
		As well as good?
		Because if you don't believe, maybe he's not doing it so you can comprehend it.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A crutch, Adair.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Is it a crutch?
		Yes, I should think so, because there doesn't seem to be any evidence that God has come down and intervened, or that God has intervened in any way.
		It's in the scriptures, but there doesn't seem to be any Definite proof of intervention.
		I mean, going back to disease.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, as you mentioned in the scriptures, I mean, we had the Red Sea partying, that seemed to be a little unusual, and, you know, a few other.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		But you had Jesus as the incarnation of God curing people with diseases.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, he did.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Which is rather strange because presumably God made these diseases in the first place.
		And then he comes in as an incarnation and cures some of them.
		It's sort of a bit like with head of a mafia throwing five pounds or five dollars into a charity for fallen women.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was Adair's analogy, folks, not mine.
		And he's across the sea where you can't get to him now anyway.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Adair Butchens.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Low.
unidentified		Oh, great show, Art.
		I really appreciate it.
		Three quick questions for your guest, but first I have an idea for a line tomorrow night.
		How about reserving an amateur astronomer line?
		Ah, Planet X!
		I see it.
		It's coming.
		It's coming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll see.
unidentified		Okay.
		Three quick questions.
		If the Virgo supercluster, our supercluster, is 180 million light years across, and you shrink that down to the size of your thumbnail, does that mean the universe is, say, the size of your average suburban house lot?
		And a second question, if you have these superclusters, and you were talking about observing their magnitude and distance, can you observe for the amount of matter in the universe?
		Can you observe through the superclusters and get an accurate count?
		Third question, if it's 15 billion years old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what, you better pause and take some of the answers here.
unidentified		One more question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nevertheless, sir, pause.
		Take some of the answers.
		Adair?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		As far as the clusters are concerned, we have done, in fact, I myself have observed and taken galaxy counts as well as I can.
		There are an awful lot of problems doing it, but I have done it observing on the Schmidt telescope at Mount Palomar.
		And that also gave an effect that the universe was open.
		And what was the first question?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry.
unidentified		If our supercluster, the Virgo supercluster, is 180 million light years across.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And you shrink that down to the size of your thumbnail.
		Yeah.
		And does that mean the universe is about the size of your average suburban house lot?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, but when we get back to the Big Bang, what we're talking about now is the observable universe.
		And as we go back in time towards the Big Bang, that shrinks and shrinks and shrinks and becomes dense and denser.
		But this is the part of the universe that, in theory, we could observe.
		All the rest of the universe is still there.
		It's not the whole universe itself that's going, shrinking down.
		It's that part of it that we can see.
		That's what people talk about, the size of the universe.
		They mean the size of the observable universe.
		The universe is infinite.
		All the whole mass of the universe will still be there.
		But it's easier to look at the size of the observable universe to be able to tell people or explain exactly what is happening.
unidentified		That's a good lead-in to my third question, which is if we can observe 15 billion light years, would that mean, would one suspect that there's another 15 billion light years that we can't?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		One would, from the observations, one would suspect that there is an infinite number of light years that we can't yet.
		But every second, we can...
		This is not real observing with telescopes because there are too many factors limiting our observation.
		But in principle, we can see as far as light has traveled from the Big Bang.
		And every second, it's traveling another 186,000 miles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Adair, here's one for you.
		In Arizona, a very good place to observe the cosmos from.
		Arizona's thin air, kind of like here in Nevada.
		And so mountaintops in Arizona are great places to put large observatories.
		And in fact, the Catholic Church from Rome pushed right past all kinds of environmental mountains and molehills and bureaucracy and red tape.
		And by God, the Catholics got themselves an observatory in Arizona that you just couldn't believe.
		What do you think the Catholics are down in Arizona looking for, Adair?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		I think they are looking for the study of the universe.
		They're looking for galaxies.
		They're looking for stars.
		They're examining astrophysics.
		I think they're doing the same as all other scientists.
		Why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But why?
		I mean, they should, according to Scripture, they should know exactly what's going on.
		Why the need to be looking into the cosmos?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		I don't think Christianity or Catholicism claims to know everything about the physical universe.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		I think it claims to know everything about the spiritual universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if the Catholics one day, staring through the eyepiece, saw something that contradicted everything they believe, what do you think they would do with that information?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		They wouldn't accept it.
		People don't accept things they don't want to believe.
		That's true.
		In 9-11, a lot of Muslims believed that it was done by the Jews because they didn't want to believe it was done by the Muslims.
		Many people will not believe something they do not want to believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're quite right about that.
		All right.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Adair Butchens and RFL.
		Good morning.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you are.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		My name is Walter.
		I'm in Eatonville, Washington.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Walter.
unidentified		Hello, Mr. Butchens.
		I'd like to ask you about the ascension thing you were talking about.
		I mean, I don't see why science can't figure that out since it seems like science is on the path of beaming people up into space.
		And the only drawback I can see from it or people might not like is that I could think I'm a messenger of God and want to kill everybody and arrange the meeting of God that way, and everybody gets to ascend into heaven.
		I mean, that's the only thing I can't see why you seem like you're down on the ascension, that people can't just leave the planet and ascend and meet God.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		To leave the planet, one would have, well, one can leave the planet in a rocket, of course, providing you go 25,000 miles an hour, which is the speed necessary to resist the Earth's gravity.
		I don't think heaven, in the particular sense that the scripture puts it, actually exists.
		As a matter of fact, C.S. Lewis wrote a book in which he quoted the Russians, saying that they've been into space and they haven't met God or seen heaven.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's get right down to a hard question, Adair.
		What about the human soul?
		Do you think there is something that we traditionally understand to be the human soul?
		I would rather imagine you don't think that, do you?
unidentified		Well, so far there's been no...
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Richard Dawkins certainly doesn't believe there's a human soul.
		But on the other hand, we have the mystery of consciousness and identity.
		No one understands that.
		Also, people have had various ideas, but no one really understands that.
		Now, Stannard considers that the human soul developed evolutionary with the human being.
		Now, I couldn't think of any survival value for the human soul, but then I thought, well, free will, for instance, seems to have come from an evolutionary point of view.
		I mean, presumably insects don't have free will.
		They just react To various events.
		But as you go up the intelligence ladder with animals, you come more and more free will, because free will becomes very useful both to the victim and the predator.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To the degree, actually, that in some mammals, particularly those that we keep as household pets, for example, there appears to be so much free will and identity that one might as easily assign the concept of a soul, if that's what it is, to an animal as one does to a human.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's right.
		Stanard considers it evolution, but it could of course have...
		if the soul does exist, it could easily have evolved in concert with free will.
		Because I cannot believe that without, You're just reacting to events.
		But as free will has come into being evolutionary, it is possible, as Stanard says, that a soul could have evolved with it.
		Now I'm not stating that, but it is a possibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And uh I respect people that I'm a retired telephone cable line troubleshooter, and so I've got some.
unidentified		I'll just have to email you with some answers on the fantastic array you've built.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'll look forward to that.
unidentified		Some real familiar stuff to me.
unidentified		Electricity does exist in the ether.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this is one of those things you just wouldn't believe unless you saw, and that's why I put the photographs up.
unidentified		Do you have any quick questions?
		Yeah, I do.
		I would just like to observe that this continual denial of the creative force, or even though we admit there is this possibility of it in the design, if the universe is expanding, and our guest knows this, then why is that not considered change?
		And why the assumption that the Creator isn't making that change?
		That's question number one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a really good one.
		Actually, it's the only one we'll have time for.
		Adair?
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Well, one can assume that if a Creator, a God, exists, then He is causing the universe to expand, and eventually we'll all end up in the heat death.
		What is normally thought of as a Creator is that He is eventually going to cause complete change of universe, and we're going to get a judgment day and the resurrection of the dead.
		And that would be an arbitrary change of the universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Adair, you know what?
		We're out of time.
		Now that I've gotten to know you, we could do much more, and maybe one day we'll get an opportunity to do that.
		In any case, the Numenus Legacy is on sale now, wherever you probably buy your books, and I would suggest that you might want to know more about what this man thinks and believes, because he's fascinating.
		Adair, thank you for being here.
		We've got to go.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for introducing me to your program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have a great day, there, in Great Britain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
adair butchins ▲ ● ▼		Say good night.
unidentified		Thank you.

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