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Dec. 27, 2002 - Art Bell
02:47:30
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Amityville Horror Case - George Lutz
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From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good afternoon.
Good morning, whatever the case may be, wherever you are and all the time.
So it's covered by this incredible radio program called Coast to Coast AM.
I'm Art Bell.
Glad to be here, even though I have the worst cold.
Last week when I was getting off the air, Friday night, Saturday morning, I couldn't sleep and I couldn't figure out why.
Sunday I knew.
You know, sore throat.
Typical stuff, right?
Real sore throat.
Then the sneezing begins.
Then the spigot's open and you're drowning in a sea of snot.
And it's been that way, and then, of course, it went to my chest, and that's where it is now, residing in my chest, and I've been drinking abnormally large amounts of spectra, you know, and coughing up what look, appear to be small, hopefully irrelevant organs and stuff, and so that's my condition to that.
I've got a hell of a cold.
In a moment, Richard C. Hoagland in the next hour.
George Lutz, the Amityville George Lutz, somebody I have always wanted To interview, since I've been doing this program, the original, real George Lutz from the Amityville house.
He's the family that moved in after the DeFeo murders.
The Lutz family, and they're the ones that the movie was about in the book and everything, and so tonight we'll get the real story.
A couple of things that are going on that are noteworthy, certainly, in North Korea.
I wonder if Ed Dames could be right, huh?
A defiant North Korea ordered UN nuclear inspectors out of the country Friday, said it would restart a lab capable of producing plutonium for nuclear weapons, so they're not even hiding it.
But the UN nuclear watchdog said its inspectors were going to stay right where they are.
The White House denounced the expulsions, but said that military action was not being contemplated.
I mean, here we have a country that has the means to build nuclear weapons, And they have just announced they're going to do it, and they're throwing out the UN inspectors to build nuclear weapons, and we are not contemplating military action.
Whereas, in Iraq, we're doing more than contemplation.
We've ordered a major military force to the Persian Gulf in prep for a possible war with Iraq.
Why?
Because of perceived weapons of mass destruction building and storing and stuff, right?
So, case A, Korea, we do nothing.
We don't even contemplate doing anything when they say they're doing it.
Case B, where we're not sure they're even doing it, we're gonna have a war.
And then this.
Ushering in either a brave new world or a spectacular hoax, a company founded by a religious sect that believes in space aliens announced Friday, it in fact has produced the world's first cloned baby.
Caesarean section, they say.
Bridget Mossier, that little French pixie that heads up that organization that I've interviewed in the past, when they said she conceived, not Bridget, but the American, came on.
I did an interview with Bridget, and she talked about why they were doing what they were doing, what they expected.
Their expectations said they had it done.
Now they say, it's happened.
In a moment, Richard C. Oglen begins the know.
There is one important thing.
Uh, that I announce, and that is, this is your final opportunity.
As you know, this, uh, Keith Rowland and the website, www.arpel.com, where there are some new ghost photographs tonight, Christmas-type ghosts.
Uh, Keith has been with me for... God, years and years and years and years and years.
And, uh, on Tuesday, with the ending of the, um, current year and the beginning of the next year, which we will ring in with predictions And a review of predictions made last year at the same time.
But Keith, who's been with me all this time, and the Art Bell website go down forevermore.
Oh, who knows?
Maybe someday I'll bring it back up as a ham radio website or something.
I don't know.
You know, I own the domain.
So it's going down forever, and the new website takes over.
Now, you can get A commemorative set of CDs that memorialize this website and a lot of the stuff that was on it over so many years.
And this is about your last chance to do so.
Now, the way to do it is to go to artbell.com.
You can't miss it.
You know, it's your last chance.
These will not be for sale after the stroke of midnight.
Or after the show, actually at midnight on January 1st, they will go off sale.
You will not be able to get them.
Come hook or crook or whatever, you can't get them.
So, this is your last chance.
I suggest you go to Artbell.com and scarf them up between now and the beginning of the new year.
Rushing toward us now, I might add.
Well, okay, here comes Richard C. Hoagland, a good friend for A lot of years on this program, a whole lot of years, and he was at one time advisor to Walter C. Cronkite, and he was an advisor to NASA, and he won the Instrum Science Award, and he's been invaluable as a part of this program.
He will continue to be a part of this program, and he was the man who watched with Walter as the U.S.
went to the moon.
So we've been to the moon.
And we're contemplating a trip to Mars to find out if so many things that Richard has talked about are true or not.
And we've done all this, and still, we haven't conquered the damn common cold!
Maybe you could explain that one, Mr. Science.
Good evening, Art.
Good evening.
I've been thinking a lot about that, Richard.
I mean, here we are, cloning a human baby, right, if it's true.
We still haven't conquered the cold.
Well, there are some things, but one has to take them very early.
It's the first sign.
I thought I was coming down with one a couple days ago, and I took something called oxalococcin, which is a naturopathic remedy.
I don't know if I believe in all that, Richard.
I mean, yeah, you didn't come down with it, but maybe the answer is you weren't really coming down with it.
Well, it had all the symptoms.
Well, we don't want to bore people with our symptoms.
Well, I do want to know why we haven't done anything about it.
Well, you're saying we have.
I'm saying we have.
You just have to look in the right places.
Okay.
I'm sorry you feel bad.
That's all right.
You know, it's bizarre.
I was thinking all day after you called me and said, do you want to do something tonight?
And I thought, what the heck are we going to talk about?
Well, we're about, you know, I mean, time is short.
Because, well, we've hit all the specifics.
Everybody knows the landscape.
What I wanted to do in the little time we have left, since this is our last show, is to be a little more philosophical.
I'd like to turn the tables.
I'd like to interview you on a couple of things.
You've been at this now, in this incarnation of coast-to-coast dealing with the edgy stuff, things at the edge of perception the unknowns the
the things we haven't nailed down the things the mainstream says are crazy and
kooky and other people know or not
or at least uh...
ten fifteen years closer
the fifteen mark but yeah that's right that's right yes and what i wanted to ask and i'm sure everybody wants to
know the answer is hart what do you think you've learned
i've learned a lot richard
I mean, you used to be into politics.
I've learned... Oh, I'm still into politics.
Well, but then you used to be heavy into politics.
Yeah, I used to do it on a daily basis until I got sick of it.
And then you realized something changed.
Well, that's because I realized there's more to life than the latest political squabble in Washington.
I mean, every other talk show host around the country has all they do.
The latest bull coming out of Washington.
Well, there's other things to talk about.
There's other things to life.
Yeah, that's what moved me to do this program.
You asked me what I've learned.
I've learned a lot, but how much do I know?
I don't have the answer to that one.
A lot of what I had thought would begin to happen, Richard, because of all the interviews and everybody I was exposed to, you and many others, a lot of that has begun to come true now.
So I'm seeing a lot of what I concluded through what I learned Beginning to manifest itself now in the world.
But what I really know, absolutely, very little, still.
What I really know... I just see a lot coming true that I thought would occur.
I don't know.
That's not a good answer.
It's the best I can do.
So you've connected dots?
Sure.
Things that you suspected might be possible, you think now are more possible?
That's... Well, no, I think beyond that.
I think a lot of the things that I learned Um, led me to believe that certain things would begin to occur in the world, and they are well underway, Richard.
Well, you've written two books.
Yep.
You know, one with Whitley, and, you know, a couple on your own.
Yep.
Actually, three.
Um... Actually, four.
The Art of Talk, The Source, The Quickening, and The Coming Global Superstar.
Ah, okay.
And, obviously, to write a book, you've got to do your homework.
Yep.
A lot of work.
In terms of the global climate thing... It's underway.
You definitely believe, as I do, it's underway.
Yeah.
Yeah, I went on the NBC Today Show and got laughed at and poked at by Matt Lauer, and then one day, a year later, I got poked back.
And that little nonsense aside, the fact of the matter is, anybody who doesn't know the climate change is underway simply isn't watching.
Well, what's interesting is it's climate change not just on the Earth, but as you and I have done shows, there's climate change on Mars, You bet.
You may not be aware that there's climate change on Pluto, on the satellites of the outer planets.
There is a general warming occurring all over the solar system.
Now that is interesting.
And the mainstream guys haven't a clue.
Oh, now you're on to something, Richard.
A general warming going on all over the solar system.
You're the first one to say that.
In other words, I understand that climate changes on planets.
And that there are cyclical things that occur.
We all know that.
That's a big argument we have here about whether our man's hand is involved in that or it's just a normal cyclical change.
But you're telling me a warming is underway all over the solar system.
Now that's news.
Now in terms of things you've learned, you and I have discussed endlessly the Mars data that we've been probing.
Yes.
And the physics that we think we have discerned from that data.
Yes.
And the predictions that physics makes.
And we've talked on this program many times about the connection between the physics and the global climate models that you and Whitley wrote about.
Well, what's fascinating to me is to tie in the climate change that Malin is reporting on Mars with the melting of the CO2 ice caps of the South Pole at a rate which is phenomenal.
I mean, In a few hundred years, if the melting that they're seeing in these images from year to year keeps going, there'll be no ice cap left.
No solid carbon dioxide ice cap.
Well, I was certainly aware of the warming on Mars.
I'd read a number of stories about that, Richard, but I didn't know about the other planets.
Well, a few years ago, I mean, we have Hubble in orbit, and it can take images of everything in our backyard.
They don't do it very often.
But it's very difficult to get data, even with Hubble, on Pluto.
Pluto, as you know, is way out there.
It's 4 billion plus miles.
Actually, it comes inside the orbit of Neptune for a period of time, and then it goes back out.
It's a very elliptical orbit, tilted very significantly to the rest of the planet.
Well, what evidence do we have there's warming on Pluto?
Well, a few years ago, the only way they can really discern climate on Pluto
is by watching it pass in front of a star.
And what they do is they send teams to various islands or little tiny parts of continents where the shadow of the star.
It's basically a stellar eclipse.
Spectral photography, I suppose.
Well, you do photometry is actually what it is.
What you're doing is you're watching how the star disappears as the planet overtakes it, and then watch what happens when it reappears.
On Earth, more familiarly, when you watch a bright star go behind the moon, there are some scientific things that you can discern about the moon.
For instance, this is one of the early ways that astronomers realized that the moon Had essentially no atmosphere.
If the moon had an atmosphere arc and a star went behind it, you would see the star twinkle just before it disappeared.
Because of the heat burblings of the lower atmosphere, even on a relatively low gravity world like the moon.
Right.
Well, there's basically no twinkle, so we know there's an upper limit on the atmosphere of the moon, which is like 1 millionth or something of the Earth's atmosphere.
When Pluto, a few years ago, went in front of a fairly bright star... They got a good look.
They got a good look at the twinkle of the star going in and coming out, you know, ingressing and egressing.
And, of course, a spectrally red than what Pluto is doing.
Well, what you can do is you can map the twinkles to models of how planetary atmospheres will affect starlight.
So, was it twinkle, twinkle, little global warming, or what?
Well, it was twinkle, twinkle, Mars had a nice... Pluto had a nice Fluffy atmosphere for something so distant and so cold.
Well, isn't that interesting?
But, it was inside the orbit of Neptune, so it was expected.
Because it was closer than the 8th planet.
And its atmosphere is mostly, you know, carbon monoxide, and nitrogen, and methane.
Things that warm up at very, very cold temperatures and are still gaseous.
Well, a few weeks ago, there was another opportunity.
And Pluto went in front of another set of stars, and they recorded those observations.
Now, Pluto has been receding from the Sun.
It is now beyond Neptune, moving out to its farthest point from the Sun.
And when a planet moves that far away from the Sun, it gets a lot colder, because out there, the Sun is almost like a bright star.
It is so damn dim.
I mean, four billion miles, that's... So if we were out on Pluto looking back at good old Sol... It would be a brilliant star, but it would absolutely... it would chill your bones, because it's liquid nitrogen temperatures three, four hundred degrees below zero on a sunny day, alright?
What was bizarre about the observations are, is that even though Pluto was moving away, and should be a lot colder, it's warmer.
The occultation of this star showed the atmosphere was fluffier, there was more activity.
Yeah, how could that be?
You know, the first jump I would make, Richard, I mean the only common thread locally, would be what?
The sun.
The sun getting hotter, the sun getting brighter, the sun changing in some way, causing changes in all the planets that it shares relative space with.
That's what, you know, the first dummy talk show was.
The problem with that is, it ain't happening.
The sun is doing exactly, except for the sunspot cycle, which is very, very minor, the sun is radiating exactly as much heat and light as it always has.
It's not getting brighter.
It's not, you know, being an expanding variable.
It's not doing any of the weird stuff that would cause these progressive changes, warming all over the solar system, from Earth all the way out to Pluto.
Well, what other commonality is there, Richard?
It's the hyper-dimensional model.
I mean, you and Whit touched on it when you talked about cyclic changes.
Yes.
That instead of global warming on Earth being due to civilization and technology and burning of fossil fuels, there may be long-term intrinsic changes in climate.
But that's really not answering the question.
It merely says it's nature, but it doesn't explain what nature does.
What we've been trying to do is to apply this physics to these changes and predict that, in fact, these changes are due to a general change in the energy pass-through, if I can use that word, of the whole solar system, and that this is being triggered by the movements in the model of unseen planets far beyond Pluto that have not been Generally discovered or acknowledged, yet.
But they will be.
That's part of... I mean, I know it's not Tuesday night.
Are you talking about... You're not talking about what people popularly call Planet X, are you?
No.
Well, we might.
Maybe?
It might be a mistake, a case of mistaken identity.
Because in our model, there have to be at least one, probably two more big guys out beyond Pluto Orbiting the Sun to account for a lot of other factors that we've published on our website, EnterpriseMission.com.
Well, there does seem to be mainstream evidence that there is something out there.
They think it's a large planet or a burned out Sun or something.
From several years of observations, they've looked at comets.
There's this peculiar pattern of comets that appear to be triggered to come into the inner solar system on a periodic basis and they're attributing that to some Is it related to momentum, Richard?
Well, we're saying that there are two, and the way the physics works are, is that when you get planets in phase,
It is.
meaning at certain angles, the energy goes up.
When planets are out of phase, meaning at other angles, the energy goes down.
The planets that we're not even seeing are getting in phase, which changes the amount of energy that comes through the
solar system.
Is it related to momentum, Richard?
It is. It's called angular momentum.
It's related to the underlying reality of physics, which is that things are not static.
They're actually in flux.
They're actually vibrating.
There's actually a resonant phenomenon.
Things are... We can speak of waves.
We can speak of invisible waves in the ether.
Yes.
And these tend to connect us to a higher set of dimensions.
People would say, you can't have invisible waves in the ether.
But then, of course, they're sitting there listening to their radio right now.
Do you see any beam coming into your radio?
No.
Anyway, so yes, you and Witt are on to something.
Not only is the global warming taking place on this planet, but we now know it's taking place all over the solar system.
And that, of course, means the sun is not changing visibly.
What has to be doing it is something that is not in the mainstream textbooks.
All right.
Hold it right there, Richard.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
So the angular momentum of something sort of almost unseen out there is doing all of this.
And it's getting warmer everywhere.
From the high deserts, I'm Art Bell.
Well I think it's time to get ready, to realize just what I have found.
I'm Art Bell.
Brother's happy days, they seem so hard to find.
I tried to wait for you, but you have lost your mind.
Whatever happened to our love?
I wish I understood.
It used to be so nice, it used to be so good So when you near me darling, can't you hear me SOS
The love you gave me, nothing else can save me SOS When you're gone, how can I even try to go on
When you're gone, though I try, how can I carry on To recharge Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
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Top of the evening or morning or whatever, everybody.
Richard C. Hoagland is here.
I want to remind you, Tuesday...
is coming will be the last for me during that program we will extract from the bell family vault the predictions you all made last year we will take new ones for next year and who knows if they invite me back i'll review them with you and uh we'll take yet more so this really isn't goodbye bear that in mind it's just sort of au revoir and i'll hand it over to george and then from time to time i will be back so it's not really goodbye it's just sort of a Real serious hiatus.
Stay right there, and we'll be right back.
Once again, Richard C. Hoagland from the mountains of New Mexico.
Richard, welcome back.
The snowy mountains of New Mexico.
Yeah, I bet.
Hey, there's another one on the way, and I understand they had, you know, like 70 mile an hour winds up on the coast of Oregon, California.
Up there, Washington, I don't know.
Hyperdimensional weather.
Yeah.
The weather is very serious and it's not going to get better, it's going to get worse.
It's going to get more extreme.
Yeah.
And that is, you can take that to the bank, so plan accordingly.
Okay, continuing with our interview, Art.
Sure.
In terms of our work, what do you think you've learned?
Well, Richard, you know, a lot of times No, not a lot of times, but sometimes, when you and I did programs together.
You would bring photographs, zillions of photographs to me, and I would look at them and I'd say, this guy's out of his tree.
You know, these damn things are rocks.
And then, on several occasions, you would present me with photographic evidence that I think even a complete idiot couldn't miss.
And for example, the latest one, what I call the city.
is inescapably true.
So Richard, you have amazed me.
Sometimes you've driven me nuts.
Sometimes you have, I thought you were just flat wrong.
And then sometimes you have just absolutely set me back on my butt, you know, to the point where there was no, it was undeniable.
There was a city.
There is a city below the surface on Mars.
There is a city.
So I've done my job.
Nobody who looks at that can deny it.
I'm sorry?
So I've done my job.
Well, I guess you have, yeah.
Well, you know, it only takes one white crow to prove that all crows aren't black.
That's true.
And out of all the photos, you know, if even one rings your chimes, I won't say Bill.
Yeah, you know, you found the crow.
If even one is inexplicably bizarre to the point where it demands more answers, we have done our job.
Do you know that that set of images, that infrared image that was released to us under the most bizarre circumstances this summer, has elicited more over-the-top reaction from our enemies probably than anything that we've been involved in since 1998, when you and I went through some... Yeah, I'm not surprised, Richard.
That is way over the top.
I mean, it's a damn city.
Of course it elicited a lot of reaction.
Well, it should.
And, oddly enough, I think in a strange way, and I'm going to move into the next area of this with a segue that I hope you'll appreciate, I think it can potentially begin to help us understand why We are moving hell-bent for leather toward war with one nation on this planet when, as you pointed out a moment ago, there's another nation half a world away which has got them, is making them, and bragging about them.
And throwing out the inspectors.
That's right.
We're not even contemplating military action while we build up Redditor Fer into Iraq on the possibility that they might have them.
I mean, the whole thing doesn't make sense.
Here's a segue.
Apart from the hard data that we presented, what are your thoughts on the ritual model that we've been talking about for years?
I've always had a big problem with that, Richard.
Well, tell me why.
The ritual aspect of it.
In other words, I'll go this far, Richard.
I think that there is a connection to ancient Egypt, but I don't think it's as complex A connection, as you have drawn over the years.
Remember Old Navy?
Of course!
How could we ever forget?
You know, it's a pretty wild episode.
So I think there's some sort of connection.
When you look at what's on Mars, and you look at Egypt, and you don't see similarities, well then you're not looking.
Okay.
So I go that far, but you know, you drew some cases where we launched on certain dates because of ritual Connections and all the rest of it, and I don't know that I bought off on that.
You asked, I'm telling.
No, no, I absolutely want you to tell it the way it is.
Well, I'm doing it.
Well, alright.
The Egypt connection to me is striking and was totally surprising.
Not to the extent that the resemblance of the stuff on Mars looks like the stuff in Egypt, but that there appears to be a group of folks, guys, Who are ritualistically following an ancient religion that was attached to the stuff in Egypt.
That, to me, that has surprised the hell out of me.
And the more I have burrowed into this, the more I've probed, the more surprised and astonished I have become, because this is supposed to be the 21st century.
This is supposed to be, you know, people looking at things and behaving scientifically, Not according to an ancient, ancient religion.
And yet, that's what the pattern, we talked about pattern recognition early in the program, that's what it's all about.
Well, Richard, with regard to ancient religion, yes, there probably was one.
I think the Egyptians knew things, perhaps through some sort of religion that may have been formed around it, or may have been the basis of it, who knows, that we still don't know.
Things that we have not yet Learned again, things that may be contained in a library under the Sphinx or somewhere else on the planet, I'll be damned if I know, but yeah, they knew something that we don't know again yet.
Meaning they had access to carefully preserved records of some sort?
Yes, and I think they had the ability to manipulate some sort of physics that we yet have not deciphered.
Okay, well that brings up of course the question of the pyramids.
Well, yes.
And have you found your peace yet?
No, you know, Richard, I have not.
You have got to.
And I tore drawers open.
I mean, obviously it's here somewhere, but Richard, in the years that I've been in this wonderful home with my beautiful wife, we have accumulated... Well, once we had a garage in which we could spaciously park our two beautiful cars, it is now to the point where the cars Uh, you have to manipulate them extremely carefully while going into the garage, lest you hit what is now occupying the garage, which is almost, you know, half of everything we've had.
I mean, it's unbelievable how much we've accumulated.
I cannot bring myself to throw things away.
It is here, Richard, but I don't know where.
And then when I'm retired and I have time to go through all of this stuff, I'll find it.
That means you're starting Tuesday, right?
Well, maybe Wednesday.
Maybe we should start a museum.
Yeah, no kidding.
Okay.
Anyway, back to the Egypt thing, because if there is a piece of technology that's inexplicable, and we've described what that piece did with the radium watch and all that.
It should be noted, by the way, that the piece that I got, and you know how I got it.
I did not personally bring it out of Egypt.
Do you hear that, Zahi?
I did not do it.
And Richard, there were other pieces that It came out of Egypt, so the one I have is not the only one.
That's right.
In fact, after we did our last show, some folks emailed me and offered me pieces of what they've got.
And that is in process, and obviously we will report what happens in future programs.
But getting back to the Egypt thing, were you aware that ancient Egypt had a major enemy in the same time frame?
Circa, you know, three, four thousand, five thousand years ago.
Yes.
And it was a place called Sumer.
Yes.
Slash Acadia slash Babylon.
The Babylonian Empire.
Yes.
You know, of course, what the capital of the Sumerians, Acadians, Babylonian Empire was, don't you?
What was it?
The current city known as Baghdad.
Yes.
You know that Saddam Hussein He firmly believes he is the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar.
He does, in fact, yes.
And he has been doing an extraordinary program of restoring ancient sites and temples, funding archaeology, rebuilding palaces and esplanades and, you know, they used to talk about the glory that was Rome.
Well, this is much, much more ancient.
Almost to the dawn of written civilization.
You know, Richard, I hope that you bring up a very interesting point, and I hope that somehow Saddam has not uncovered some information about a physics that we have yet to understand and don't want to be surprised by when our bombers head over Baghdad.
Well, this is one of the reasons I raise this, because when you begin to look at the record, and I had a very interesting thing happen over the holidays.
I got a book for Christmas.
Mike, you know, Robin's son, gave me a book, a book I've actually wanted to read.
And I've had time to read it, and I've actually taken the last week off, you know, and done a few other things, Christmas stuff and family stuff, and had time to read this book.
It's called Bush's War by Bob Woodward.
It was published this fall.
And it was supposed to be the first 100 days of the Bush administration.
Well, after 9-11, He would change the theme to look at what happened after 9-11 and the preparations for Afghanistan, etc, etc.
And going through this book, I have seen the most remarkable pattern, more dots, which may not answer the question, why are we hell-bent for leather to go to war with Iraq?
But I'm hoping it will raise questions.
Do you imagine that it could be possible, Richard, that we understand Given the secretive nature of all of this, I could not say no to that proposition.
something in Iraq that we must have and or slash must keep out of their hands.
Given the secretive nature of all of this, I could not say no to that
proposition. What I think is more likely is that in this coming year, I mean you
have been doing a commercial now for several months regarding the upcoming
Mars opposition in August of 2020.
Yes, sir.
When Mars will be closer than it has been, and you keep reading that number, it's not 50,000, it's closer to 75,000 years.
Either way, a long time.
Well, the reason that that is important is because that number is referenced in some bizarre channelings that were done in Kentucky some 25 or 30 years ago.
in connection with Mars.
That 75,000 years and this cyclic apparition of Mars, when it comes closer
than it is at any other time,
and we're not talking about by a lot, we're talking by maybe half a million miles,
but it's literally, symbolically closer than it has been
for an immense period of time.
75,000 years is three processional cycles.
That's an immense amount of time.
If there was a group following these rituals,
following the symbolism, following their connection,
this would be very important.
And what I find inexplicable in terms of mainstream reactions is how we can have a country like North Korea, which is obviously led by a madman, obviously very destabilizing, obviously intent on doing some very nasty things, Obviously has the technology to do it, is starting reactors to process more fuel so they can, you know, basically begin to build an assembly line for weapons.
That's right.
And we have absolute unequivocal proof this is going on, whereas on the other direction, we don't.
In Sumer, all we have is the Shura and Khimra, Khmera and mirrors of, he's the bad guy, he's the bad guy, we must take him out, we must take him out.
And your explanation, Richard, is every bit as good.
Uh, as the non-existent explanation given by our administration, which is not at all.
I mean, we... It's not at all.
Now, back when you and I lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis... That's right.
And it was one hell of a crisis.
Richard, I remember, I was in the Air Force, I remember picking up the red phone and listening to the Defcon level, and the back there, on the back of my neck, went straight up.
I felt we were going to war.
Well, we were.
We were a hair's breadth away.
That's right.
We now know, from the meetings that McNamara and others have had with the Russians, that if Kennedy had caved in to the Joint Chiefs and had invaded, the Russians had, I forget how many thousand tactical nuclear weapons in Cuba already armed and waiting.
Not the ones sitting on those missiles we were worried about, But other nukes that we didn't know about, the warheads had already been sent.
What would have happened is we would have triggered World War 3 instantly.
Yes.
And we would have incinerated civilization and we would have been back to square one.
Yeah, I believe that is pretty well agreed upon by most scholars who've now had a really good look at what really did happen.
I think you're right.
So it was only Kennedy's careful forethought and And understanding of the scope of what was at hand, that forestalled the most horrible tragedy that could have befallen mankind.
Contrast that with what we're doing now, where on no evidence at all, I mean, Kennedy had Stevenson go to the UN and lay out before the world the evidence of those missiles.
I saw him live, yes.
We have zero evidence laid out in public that's out of a stain.
I know.
Nasty bad guy that he is.
Rotten, you know, father that he is.
Has anything worth sending our young people in to die for.
That will, that would ask us to poise the world on the brink of oblivion when you have a billion Muslims who will look at this As basically the Crusades all over again.
An assault on the Islamic world.
I'm with you.
What could possibly be so important to risk?
I'm saying we have to look at the symbolism and this deep trail we have found.
Even if you don't believe all the pieces.
And I will give you one stunning example.
You know that we have connected this with the numbers.
There are numbers that keep coming up over and over and over again.
I'm reading Bob Woodward's book.
And I'm reading about the meeting between Bush and Putin in Crawford, Texas last fall, when Putin came over and they spent two or three days at the ranch, and Bush decided to sign a nuclear de-escalation treaty, where we reduce to X number of warheads.
Well, I was looking at the numbers and I could not believe what I saw, because Against all his key advisors, particularly Rumsfeld, Don Rumsfeld, his head of the Defense Department, was arguing strenuously in these NSC meetings that Woodward got the minutes of.
I mean, I don't know how he did it, but he got some astonishing firsthand information as to what was going on in this critical period of history.
Rumsfeld was arguing against going to the Soviets and writing a treaty.
Bush says, we're going to do it, and he did it.
In the treaty, it says that by 2012, I thought it was a fascinating date to choose.
It sure is, yes.
We will reduce warheads on both sides to between 1,700 and 2,200 nuclear warheads.
Now, if you add those two numbers and divide by two, you get 19.5.
See, this is the one area where... See, I've alternated, Richard, to finish up this little interview between thinking you're full of it and you're a genius.
The number thing, I don't know, may be full of it.
The other part of it may be genius, because there sure as hell is no explanation, viable explanation, for what we're about to do with our young men and women.
putting them at risk for God knows what when we've got another nation doing what we claim we're going in to cure over there when we don't even I mean the whole thing is just so ludicrous Richard so I alternate and I have all these years between thinking you're full of it and you're a genius and you're probably both just like me I'm full of it and you know maybe I have my moments so well my friend it has been a lot of fun going over this stuff with you all these years I look forward on special occasions to doing it again.
I'm glad to hear that you're not totally retiring from the field because my gut tells me, in terms of prediction, that 2003 is going to be one hell of a year that's going to make a lot more dots come together.
Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to like the shape of some of the dots.
Richard, nobody ever totally retires from radio.
It just doesn't happen.
It just doesn't happen.
But, you know, so I'll get in.
I'll make my appearances every now and then.
I hope, you know, if they invite me in, I'll be here.
In the meantime, for all the years that I've been... that you've been with me, I want to thank you.
And... It's been a pleasure.
It really has been a pleasure, Richard.
Take care, my friend.
You too.
Good night.
Good night.
All right.
Coming up in a moment, somebody that I've wanted... I've really wanted this interview my entire career.
Father Malachi Martin said that the Amityville House, the Amityville House from the Amityville Horror, was one of the most haunted places in America.
He said that on my program.
In a moment, we're going to talk to the man who suffered through all of this with his family, George Lutz, from the high desert.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
I'm Art Bell.
The White Bear dreams of the aspen tree, with her dying leaves turning gold.
But the white bear just sits in the cage, growing old.
White bird must fly or she will die.
The sunsets come, the sunsets go.
The clouds fall back, and the earth turns cold.
And the young birds I do always call And she must fly
She must fly She must fly
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-9-1-800
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First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nile.
Tis indeed.
Good morning, everybody.
Well, this is an interview that, during the course of my career, I'm really quite thrilled.
I've never done before.
It's almost odd that I've never done it.
Fortuitous that I'm about to.
I saw, like everybody else, the movie.
The Amityville Horror.
And isn't it odd that the man involved in that happens to be just over the hill from me in Las Vegas.
George Lee Lutz was born and raised on Long Island.
If his birth was any indication, was meant to be different from the beginning.
Seconds after delivery, doctors raced him into surgery and mended a large crack in his skull, one that should have killed him.
His mother often said that she thought his miraculous recovery was a sign that he was destined for something special.
At a very young age, George displayed a remarkable mechanical aptitude.
At the age of 12, he modified a hobby kit hydroplane, adding his own custom-designed water ski jets.
It was only the beginning of a lasting love for boats, canoes, rowboats, runabouts, sailboats, almost anything that would float on the water.
The fascination grew to include cars, and today George can remember the color, interior design, make, model of every car he's ever owned.
That's a bunch!
At 19, he volunteered for the Marines.
My parents were Marines, so he volunteered.
And later went on to earn two degrees with honors at an FAA course that led then to a job in Boston as an air traffic controller.
One of the high-stress jobs in the world.
His father's death a short time later took him back to New York to run W.H.
Perry, Inc., the family's land-surveying business.
George, who was born and raised Methodist, who always considered himself more of a devout realist, married for the first time in 72, divorced in 73.
Short marriage.
During the process of his annulment from his first marriage, George met Father Ralph J. I believe it's Pecoraro.
A Catholic priest, an ecclesiastical judge within the archdiocese of the church with whom he quickly forged a strong and lasting friendship.
In 1974, after years of profitable business management and years of enthusiasm and training in the martial arts, George met Kathy Connors, who had three children from a previous marriage.
A year after George and Kathy's first date, they were married And soon they began searching for a house of their own.
A nest, right?
By the summer of 75, they thought they had found their dream home, which happened to turn out to be a two-and-one-half story Dutch colonial in the quaint Long Island community of Amityville.
Little did they know that a legend was about to be born.
In a moment, the truth, the real truth, behind that legend.
Well, all right, here from Las Vegas, Nevada, just over the hill, is George Lutz.
George?
Hi, Arnold.
Hey, welcome to the program.
Thank you.
God, it's great to have you.
George, you're not on a... What kind of phone are you on now?
I'm on a hard line.
Oh, you're on a hard line.
Okay, good.
Got a bit of static tonight.
Yeah, I hear that.
I hear that.
I hope it doesn't get us.
All right.
What are you doing in Las Vegas, by the way?
Right now, I'm repairing computers and restoring old cars.
Uh-huh.
Old cars, your love.
It's what I enjoy the most, but I have what's called fibromyalgia, so there are times when I just can't do the work.
I understand.
All right, George, maybe we'll investigate the possibility of another line or another telephone.
It was good.
I wonder what happened.
I'm not sure.
Yeah, that's odd.
There's no other phone line open, is there?
No, not in this house.
All right, let me try this and reset this and see if that helps.
All right, anyway.
George, it's hard to even know where to start, except all my life, you know, I saw the movie and all my life I've been hearing about Amityville, and in fact, a man that I interviewed who's now passed away, of course, Father Malachi Martin, said to me in the course of an interview that the Amityville house was one of the most haunted places in all of America.
This was a live interview you did with him?
It certainly was.
Yes.
So I assume hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people heard this.
Oh, absolutely.
Sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
Of course.
So I'm not sure where to begin all of this with you, except I guess, you know, in the bio there it said that you and Kathy had just married and you were looking for a brand new house to live in and it's the nesting thing.
You know, you get married and you get a family and you want to go and you want to find a place, you know.
Well, we both had homes.
We each had our own home.
So the idea was to sell both homes and get one.
That way we could look at it as both of ours.
I'm not sure Kathy liked my house or I liked hers either.
So it was one of those, let's go find something we both like.
I'm not sure Kathy liked my house or I liked hers either.
So it was one of those, let's go find something we both like.
And she had three children, and so it really made sense to put them both up on the market
and then whichever one sold first, move into the other one and then as soon as that was
sold, hopefully we would have found another house by then and it did work out that way.
Do you remember how old the children were at the time?
Roughly?
I believe Missy was not in kindergarten yet so she would have been like four and then Chris and Danny would have been oh Seven and nine, I believe.
I'm sorry.
It's too long since I've tried to remember those things.
Yeah, a long time ago.
Well, you're going to be trying to remember a lot that's been now a long time ago.
Hopefully I'll do better.
And by the way, folks, George has a cold, too.
We both have cold.
So bear with both of us.
It's tough to think clearly.
It's tough to do anything when you're in the middle of one of these monsters.
How we've gone to the moon, done all this other stuff, now even cloned the first human, according to the Raelians, and we still can't cure the common cold, George, doesn't make sense to me.
That's pretty amazing.
Yep.
Alright, so you went to look at the house at 112 Ocean Avenue in Amityville.
All of you, I presume, or just you and Kathy?
No, all of us.
Even the children, huh?
Yes, and we had a criteria that was we were trying to find a home on the water, because I had a boat then that wasn't trailerable, really, and It was important to have the boat close by, rather than travel back and forth to it, since we tried to use it as much as we could.
Okay, well you knew, I presume you knew, about the DeVeo massacre, that six people had been murdered in that house.
I mean, that's a very serious thing to have occurred.
We didn't know this when we first went to see the house.
We knew it after the realtor told us afterward, toward the house.
It was a pretty good price, right?
It had been on the market for, I believe, $100,000 or so, and by then it had been reduced, if I remember correctly, to $90,000.
We made an offer of $80,000 and they accepted it.
Really?
George, what do you think market value was for that house then?
Real market value?
Well, the house was 4,000 feet.
It had a boathouse that would take easily a 36-foot boat at the time.
It had a two-car garage attached to that, a heated pool, a full basement.
My guess would be, then realistically, $125,000 would have been not unheard of.
So at some point, you must have asked yourself, or the realtor, hey, how come, maybe after you consummated the deal, how come it's so cheap?
Or when did you find out six people had been murdered there?
After she showed it to us, and it was obvious that Kathy had fallen in love with it, and I liked it very much, she said, I don't know if I should have told you this before I showed it to you or after, but this is the house the DeFeos were murdered in.
And we kind of looked at her like, what do you mean?
And then she reminded us of the news stories that had been a year earlier.
And the trial that was just, I guess, in the process of starting or was going on.
Alright, for those who don't remember, can you tell us about the DeFeo murders?
I mean, this DeFeo fellow said that, I think at the time, he claimed that he heard voices telling him to kill his family, right?
Ronald DeFeo was eventually convicted, yes, of killing his mom, dad, two brothers and two sisters.
And for that, he's serving what?
While they were in the sleep, while they were asleep.
Went around with a shotgun and dispatched them, I think?
It was a Marlin 36 caliber rifle.
Yeah, okay, and he's now serving, I think, six consecutive life terms, supposedly with no possibility for parole, but a hearing comes up every year or so.
I imagine the house had been cleaned up.
There was no sign of the massacre that had occurred there.
Oh no, no, no.
Nothing like that.
The house showed like any house would.
And George, you're looking at it, you're looking at the water thinking, oh my god, yes.
Right?
Oh, yeah.
We weren't looking for an $80,000 or $90,000 or $100,000 house.
$100,000 or $90,000 or $100,000 house.
But we were certainly in the $60,000 to $70,000 range when we considered we had two homes
that sold for over $40,000 each.
And just the fees on keeping our boat in a marina back then really made the difference very well as far as money went.
And I had a successful business.
It had been my grandfather's and my father's, so it wasn't something that... Well, I'll put it this way.
We went to one bank Got qualified there and got the mortgage right away.
Didn't have to go around and shop for a mortgage or apply anywhere else.
That's interesting.
We walked in with a little over $20,000 down, so we ended up with a $60,000 mortgage.
You must have sat down with the family at a family conference at some point.
Look, this horrible thing happened here.
Can you handle that fact?
Do you love the house?
Do you still want to move in?
Oh, sure.
We asked the kids if this was going to bother them, because if it was going to be an issue, With them, then we would have certainly walked on considering the house.
They were all fine with it.
Was there anything at that point, I mean, none of the children, nor Kathy, nor anybody said, look, what if it's haunted or anything like that?
I mean, that never really even entered your psyche, or did you even consider that?
Not considered in that way, no.
No.
It was, you know, look, you're going to have the same bedrooms that these kids had and they were killed here.
Is that going to be a problem?
You know, that kind of thing.
We asked them and we talked about it at length as a family.
It wasn't a snap decision by any means.
We went back and saw the house a number of times.
One time, Kathy and I even went down in my boat to see it from the water, see if we could find it.
South Shore isn't always the easiest thing to get up into the little rivers and whatever and find a house along there.
Did you and Kathy have enough from the sale of your other houses to afford the $20,000, the down payment?
Oh yeah, sure.
Are you a religious person, George?
That means something different to everybody.
Back then, I think, absolutely not.
I believe in the Lord's Prayer, I think I was a non-practicing Methodist.
Yes, but today what I believe is my own personal beliefs and there are some things that I believe are pretty unshakable and have been proven to be so over the last 25 years.
And Kathy?
Very.
I would consider Kathy very religious.
Kathy has a ministry that feeds thousands of people in Phoenix every year, homeless people.
Then you met this, and you're going to have to help me with his name, Father Ralph, is it?
Father Ralph Pecoraro.
Pecoraro, okay.
When did you come in contact with him and under what circumstances?
He was an ecclesiastical judge.
He sat in the diocesan office for the Catholic Church there in Rockville Center as a judge, ruling on various cases that came subject to church law for the Catholic Church.
My first wife, she had applied for an annulment, meant that I had the opportunity to go in and be interviewed, if I wished, about that annulment process.
I didn't understand it at the time, so I went down and met with him.
He called me and invited me in to do that.
I really didn't think it was a necessary thing.
I really didn't care whether she got an annulment or not.
I wasn't really sure that an anomaly was proper, but the end result is that's how I met him.
Okay.
What kind of man was he?
Extraordinary.
In what sense?
He read and spoke nine languages.
had an equivalent degree from a law degree from Oxford.
He met you on your terms.
You didn't have to go to him.
He was friendly and smart and He took his time to explain things to me why it was important that this annulment be granted and what the conditions the church considered it to be properly so.
But more than that, I didn't realize at the time that there was something unusual about him in the sense that he's an ecclesiastical judge.
I just figured that was his job.
I didn't realize the kind of degrees he had or the intellect involved in doing such a job or how you get to do
that.
So I guess you all became fast friends through this process.
We became good friends and talked on the phone maybe once every ten days, seven days, sometimes two weeks,
but it was always going to be he was going to come to dinner,
meet Kathy and the kids, that kind of thing.
All right, he ended up, anyway, you became friends, and he ended up
blessing this house, right?
Yeah, and I should tell you how that came about.
I'd like to know how it came about, yes.
One of my hobbies was building Harleys then, and a friend of mine, Jimmy Loscalzo in New York, had a Harley shop in East Northport, New York.
And Jimmy, when I told him what house we were buying, the DeFeo house, he said, you've got to get the house blessed.
And I said, what are you talking about?
And he said, you've got to get a priest to get the house blessed.
Went home from that and asked Kathy about that and she said, oh yeah, that's something you do if you're Catholic and you buy a new house, you do that.
And especially in this case.
And we didn't know any priests.
So Kathy was a non-practicing Catholic at the time and so I called Father Ryan and asked him if he would do it and he said, yeah, sure, I'd be glad to.
Little did I realize that wasn't the kind of thing that... This was after you moved in, George?
No, this is before we actually closed on the house.
It's one of those things you do supposedly as soon as you can when you buy it.
So it was coordinated that he would come in the day that we actually had the closing that afternoon.
Gotcha.
So we were moving in when he showed up to do that.
And so, boom boom boom, here he comes and begins, what, moving through the house to bless it?
I don't know how that's done.
Well, I hadn't actually even seen him arrive, and I hadn't seen him since I had seen him in his office.
That I recall now, when I think back about it, this is the first time I've seen him in months.
I talk to him quite a bit, but always on the phone.
So, there he is going into the house, and I waved.
I was in the back of the truck unloading the U-Haul, and a number of our friends, even one of Jimmy's brothers was there helping unload the stuff and moving it into the house.
Sure.
Moving day.
We were a little bit behind because after we'd closed on the The finances in New York, you do real estate a different way than you do out here.
You go to a closing and they have their attorney and the bank has an attorney or a representative and you have your own attorney and they all sit there and they write everything up right then and there.
Sure.
And the title company has someone.
It's a different process than it is anywhere else that I've seen.
Well, we had forgotten to get the key at the closing, so we had to go back and find the realtor and go back.
Get the key in so we could actually get in the house.
Right.
There are all these people waiting around to help us move in.
So he showed up and we were quite behind time.
You know, it's starting to get dark.
It's November.
And so I waved at him and he went on in, found Kathy and went about blessing the house.
Which means what?
You go from room to room, that kind of thing?
Yes, he went room to room, said prayers in each room using holy water and I guess there's a house blessing that they do.
I'm not privy to the words.
Nor am I. But very interesting.
All right.
Stand by, George.
We're already at the bottom of the first hour.
It goes very quickly.
George Lutz is my guest.
He's the man, along with his family, who lived the real Amityville horror.
And as the night progresses, we're going to get that story.
As it really occurred, with the time necessary, which you have with the luxury of radio, to extract that kind of information.
So that's what we're up to this night.
All right, George Lux is here, I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
Welcome to Coast to Coast AM.
You could read my mind, love, what a tale my thoughts could tell.
Just like an old time movie about a ghost from a wishing well.
In a castle dark or a fortress strong, with chains upon my feet,
you know that ghost is me.
And I will never let you go.
I'll never be set free, as long as I'm a ghost that you can't see.
If I could read your mind, love, what a tale your thoughts could tell.
Just like a paperback novel, the kind the drugstore sells.
When you reach the part where the heartaches come, the hero would be me.
The peril often fails You won't read that book again
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Ghosts, or the presence of evil, seems most frequently to show up at places where great evil has been done, like the DeFeo murders.
For example, six family members murdered, slaughtered, That's one.
There are other occasions, but that's probably the most frequent with regard to hauntings.
Something evil around.
No question about it.
So the setup was there.
In a moment, we'll get back to George Lutz, who lived the Amityville Horror.
Once again, from over the hill in Las Vegas, here is George Lutz.
George, okay, so I guess we'll call him Father Ray.
Yes.
Bless the house.
Went room to room.
Bless the house.
And then came back and told you what?
He was a bit uncomfortable in the upstairs back bedroom.
I wanted to pay him for coming.
He wouldn't accept payment.
Tried to give him a bottle of Canadian Club.
He wouldn't take that.
We invited him back for dinner.
He stopped and just said, he asked us what we were going to use One bedroom, four, which was on the second floor in the back, and that was evidently the bedroom where the two boys had been murdered.
So he told you not to use the second floor sewing room?
I've got a little echo, let me try to get rid of that.
He told you not to use the second floor sewing room at all, or as a bedroom, or what?
Kathy explained she was going to use it as a sewing room, and that, he said, was fine.
There was something about the room that made him uncomfortable and he managed to communicate that to us without any alarm or anything.
I really don't know how to explain this other than he asked what we were going to use the room for.
He said he felt a little bit uncomfortable there and that's basically what he said.
And so you didn't really probe and want to know the exact whys and wherefores of the warning?
No, he wasn't forthcoming with it.
It was like he wanted to leave.
We weren't going to use it as a bedroom, so it wasn't an issue.
Alright.
It was a strange thing for him to say, but it was like, okay, you have to leave, and that's all you're going to tell us, obviously.
You know, thanks for coming.
Good night, and see you later.
Really.
We invited him back another time, you know, to come back for dinner, and he said he would, and that was it.
Alright.
I've got somebody else here who had impressions of the house, who's on the line I'd like to bring on.
Mary Pasquarella was the lead psychic who investigated the house along with Ed and Lorraine Warren.
I've interviewed them in March of 76.
Mary is a professional psychic and time walker who picked up on some truly terrifying things when she visited your home.
She said the case had a profound effect on her.
It was the first time she had ever encountered something she could only describe as pure evil.
Pure evil!
Art, I don't know that she's ever been interviewed about this.
Well, she is going to be now.
Mary, welcome to the program.
Good evening, Lee, and how are you?
I'm Harry.
Hey, honey.
How are you?
Where are you, Mary?
I'm in Pennsylvania.
In Pennsylvania.
So you've never been interviewed in this fashion before about what happened?
No.
We had a strange arrangement with that.
I'm very private about things that I do.
It was just something that I wasn't comfortable doing.
You are private because I'm pretty familiar in this field, Mary, and I'm not familiar with you.
So you obviously are very private.
Anyway, you went into the house at the behest of Ed and Lorraine Warren.
I've interviewed them.
And what happened?
Can you, in your own words, what happened?
We went in at a time when the North Carolina team was out there from Duke.
And I had not met Lee.
When I go anyplace, I always say, don't tell me anything about the house.
And Ed called me one night and said, I have a case I'd like you to investigate.
And what is your impression?
And I said, I see a white house with a fan window.
And he said, OK, don't say anything else.
And we'll get in the car and go.
And when we arrived there, there was a team there.
And we could not go in.
And they went up and got pizza.
And I stayed in the car.
Then I walked out to the back of the house, because I like to get feelings of things.
Yes.
And when I got into the back, I had heard water, and so I saw a pool, and I thought, well, that's it.
There's the pool, there's the water, and discharged that.
But while I was in the back there, I usually say, I'm Catholic, and I usually say some prayers before I go into a house.
It was my quiet time, and I looked up into the window in the back of the house, and I saw the face of a young girl looking back out.
A young girl?
Right, and I had never... I knew nothing of the Fayots.
I hadn't met Lee.
I mean, I'm sorry, George.
Either one works, Mary.
Well, you're leading me.
So, I had not met the family, but because children were involved, and I'm I'm a proverbial mother.
I was only interested in doing the house because there were children involved in the house.
Of course.
So I looked up and I saw the face in the window.
It later became, it was the sewing room, I believe, that was the upstairs window looking out.
That would be the one Father Ray talked about.
Right.
And at that time, we hadn't been in the house.
When you enter this house, it's very deceptive.
When I first went into the house, I said to, and these people are really weird.
We're not even going to think about this.
This house is beautiful!
And the house was beautiful.
The Lutzes had decorated the house, so you walked in and it was a beautiful home.
And it gave you no feeling, no sensation of anything other than a house.
That comes much later.
Alright, but at some point?
When I went upstairs to the first thing that we did when we went in is there's a dining room to the right hand side and that had a table that had dishes and things.
Later we cleared some of that.
When you go there's a stairwell as you enter and then when you go down there's another stairwell that goes down to a a basement area.
When you get into the basement area, there's a little laundry room off to your right-hand
side of the stairs.
And then I looked to the left and there was this large game room.
And the game room had a pool table and family things where a family would enjoy themselves.
In front of you, there was a little door and it was into a small, like, a cold cellar.
You know, the old houses that had, like, a little root cellar.
Oh, yes.
Yeah, so you open the door and you go into a root cellar I never could really go into that room because it had an odor to it now you have to understand that I was under the impression and That the house it had nothing there.
I But I investigate the house to see, because I walk time, to see what possibly could have affected it to cause people to be affected by the house.
And so we got to, the laundry room had some clothes that were on the floor.
So I'm Mrs. Queen by nature, and I picked up the clothes and threw them in and washed them, figuring maybe if there was an odor there, it might be the clothing themselves.
Because it was definitely like a dirty sock smell or something had soiled.
A foul odor.
Yeah, yeah, like just an odor.
And I'm one of these people that is very fussy and very clean.
And if there's a smell, I'll need to find the source.
And as a psychic, If you say a refrigerator's in the air, I'd better be able to put my hand under it.
Otherwise, I'm not going to believe that there's a refrigerator in the air.
You know, you have to use logic.
Well, I know that sock smell.
My mom told me my socks could march the way to the washer by themselves.
When I was about 13 or so, it was awful.
Well, I'll tell you, the Lexus were impeccably clean.
And the house was absolutely gorgeous.
I mean, what they lost I'll never be able to replace.
That was for sure afterwards when you sit down.
And the reality is that there has to be something that drove them away because there was more truth in that house as you got to know it.
Well, I know the finances of all this and the people who say this is some kind of farce or hoax are full of it because the money thing doesn't add up in any way you look at it.
Either before, during, or after.
None of it makes any sense, unless... Oh, no, because that house had to have his possessions alone.
When you walked in, you knew you were walking.
I thought they were very affluent, because they had collections of coins and things, you know.
He was a collector, obviously.
But that's a moot point right now.
What is important, though, and what I want to get from you, is what you sensed, finally, in that house.
When you go up the stairs, from the first stair to the seventh stair, there's a cotton batting feeling, a feeling of wrapping.
And it's as though something terrible had happened on that stairwell.
And that was the first sense of something not quite right.
Going up the stairs to the sewing room, I walked in and I've been blessed with an imagination A mind that can see time.
And there was a young woman in there, I'd say 15 or 16, with long brown hair and parted in the middle.
And if you remember those little moo-moo dresses?
Oh, of course, yes.
The paisley things?
Yes.
And she was crying.
And one of our jobs, one of my jobs is, if you see something that's misplaced, You try to place it back.
So I started to say some prayers and said, go to the white light, because I knew that then I thought that was what the haunting was.
And so I said, go to the white light.
And at that point in time, it was as though the house did not want that soul released.
And you started to feel pressures and anger.
And then when you walk out to the hallway, I felt that I had given her the white light and she had gone.
In my mind.
But there was evil, real evil in that house?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
After the investigation, I could never go to the third floor.
When you walk down the hall on the right hand side, there's a stairwell.
Well, I'm not allowed sometimes to do things because I'm one of these people that still believe in BNB and the tooth fairy and things like that.
So I'm not good with evil or bad things.
I don't think many of us have confronted pure evil directly.
Father Malachi Martin spoke of it many times.
Even the concept of evil as an entity, as a pure thing, It will stay on the back of my neck straight up, and I have a sense, but that's all.
I've never confronted it directly, nor do I wish to.
Well, neither had I. I had a group of friends.
I worked for the Diastolean Bridgeport at that time, and I had a school.
I had four priest friends, and whenever I went anywhere, they always gave me holy water and borrowed one of their Bibles and a cross and brought it with me.
Just as a kind of a protection for myself.
Because you never know if you don't... People don't understand that if there's good, there's evil.
Yeah, I understand that.
You just don't touch it as frequently.
And because we're locked in a clock time, we don't walk the perimeters.
Yes.
The one thing that I did know about that house was it was not the original house.
I used to be an artist.
And I can, in my mind, blueprints will form.
I kind of sense when something's real or not real.
And the thing that I knew immediately, without having met Lee, was that this was a man that was protecting his children and his home.
I don't even think he believed in us as psychic investigators.
I mean, not truly.
I think his main concern Was the amount of money that he invested in the home?
Of course.
And his children?
Yeah, that's the real world.
But bottom line, Mary, in your investigation, there was no question in your mind you had encountered, in that house, pure evil.
Pure evil.
We had a set, we had a Channel 5 that was doing a seance, and I was to be the least psychic in that.
We had gotten to the point where The house had began to affect me.
And I had gotten up the stairs and I called down to Ed and I said, Ed, I'm as sick as a dog.
Well, I had this little room upstairs.
I believe it was Missy's bedroom.
Yes.
And that was my haven.
I could go there and feel perfectly safe.
Perfectly safe.
So I said to Ed, I'm going to lay down in the bed for a little while.
Because it was either that I hadn't slept or whatever.
And so I began to say my prayers, and I was saying the Our Father, and as I was saying the Our Father, I looked out of the door, and there was a young man that was with me, caving, and I looked out of the door, and as I was saying the Our Father, there was a group of figures standing outside of the door saying the Our Father backward, I thought.
Excuse me, but that doesn't sit well with me.
I'm also a stubborn person that says, don't threaten me because I'll stand up and my fists go up.
Mary, is there any question in your mind that the DeFeo souls were trapped in that home?
I didn't know about the DeFeos at the time, but I did know that In one of the bedrooms, I sensed a young man who was crying as though he had done something really bad.
So I knew two things about this house.
I knew, one, that someone was forced into a position to commit something really horrible there.
Didn't know what it was, but didn't know that it happened.
That there was a force or an energy in that house that was subject to Taking hold of somebody, and I will say this now, and I'll say it till the day I die, that since we don't know what time is, and time in time is only a fraction of a second, that the energy in that house remains.
It may take a hundred years of our time, but it will implode again.
And that house is purely evil.
I took the holy water.
And through it outside to the figures, I took the cross and I raised the cross and I said, I said a prayer and I said, God is with me.
And I threw it and I, did you ever throw water on a fire and you get this kind of a little hissing sound?
Yes.
Well, that's what the sound was.
The kid that was with me, I thought he was going to faint, but again, That's the house.
The house is deceptive.
It will take an innocent person, and I believe Kathy was such a sweet and innocent child, a girl, a young woman, and it affected the house.
It affected curious children.
And Lee was the strength in that house, so the house could never really affected only making angry and want to find out what was
the matter you're very well aware of the investigators uh...
investigators mary uh... caught a photograph when there was no child in the home
unearthly photograph little stand there on the back your next straight up
up at the top of that stairwell caught a photograph of a child when there was no
photograph in of any or no child in there to be photographed
they got a photograph of what appears to be a ghost child i've got that on the
website right now w w w dot article dot com
is anyone questioning your mind that photograph is one of the lots
are excuse me not the last the detail of the day ahead that you have got for bit right in the detail children
i'd believe that Since I was not allowed up on the third floor to where the children were, the boys I believe were, that it was probably one of those.
And do I believe they were trapped?
Yes, I do.
I think that the girl escaped into what may have been another room of Haven and that what father felt was a presence without being able to be aware that there was a presence there.
You know, Us Catholics are trained in a very different way.
And Mary, you believe that house is going to, as you put it, implode again?
Absolutely.
You get somebody that's very susceptible.
Mary, we're out of the thingy walk time, and I've got to go, but I want to thank you for calling in, and thank you so much.
Okay, and I'm on and listening.
All right, Mary.
Mary Pasquarella, George Lutz is my guest.
She walks time.
That was some stroll she took in that house.
I'm Art Bell.
Time, time, see what's become of me I'm not alone, I'm not alone
I'm not alone, I'm not alone I'm not alone, I'm not alone
I'm a little bit of a fool.
Once upon a time, once when you were mine, I remember your smile reflected in your eyes.
As I wonder where you are, I wonder if you think about me.
Once upon a time, in your wildest dreams.
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh from west of the Rockies at 1-800-9-4.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them
dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
Indeed so.
My guest is George Lutz, who lived with his family, the Amityville Horror.
Incidentally, I'd like to thank Dan Perrins for helping to make all of this possible and assisting with some of the material from the History Channel's documentaries, which he did.
On the Amityville Horror.
in a moment we'll get right back to george lutz george welcome back to the program
Hi, Eric.
You have described what happened in that house at Amityville, George, as, oh, I don't know, I guess a kind of a three-ring circus.
Now, many, many in my audience have either read the book or seen the movie, and the movie, of course, Dramatized the heck out of what happened, I suppose.
That's a really nice way to put that.
Is it?
It was very Hollywood.
Very Hollywood.
All right, but what's the real story, George?
What really did happen there?
It didn't happen all at once.
When I think back on it now, I think my perceptions of it are different than they were then.
It seemed at times then that it just It was like a rolling snowball that got bigger and bigger and bigger.
Well, nobody, no family pays that kind of money for a house, lays their life on the line, especially a place they love, and then flees a house, George.
It doesn't happen without some really serious stuff going on, movie or no movie.
Nobody does that.
Nobody flees a house without a significant reason.
What really happened?
When we left the house, Art, I should tell you that we wanted to get the house fixed.
We really did not want to just leave or leave our stuff or give up on living there.
Of course not.
And so when the opportunity came to put together the psychics that went in and investigate the house, the idea was that they would fix it.
Yeah, but there was obviously a lot wrong to fix and that's what I want to know about.
I mean, what the hell happened in that house?
By the last week we were there, it was nightly occurrences of noises.
and what's the political even of the world well or even to the point where
the psychics came in i mean what began to happen in that house george
by the by the last week we were there it was
nightly occurrences of noises things like orders coming and going or kathy being touched
from behind by some unseen person
or missy talking to herself and and asking questions like jody telling us about her imaginary friend that wasn't so
imaginary it turns Yeah, she claimed to have an imaginary friend, right?
Yes, and she would come and ask Kathy questions like, do angels talk?
Really?
Jodie is the name of the angel and Jodie is telling Missy that we're going to live there forever.
It's kind of off-putting that our dog Harry would not go in that room that Mary was talking about earlier.
The last night we were in the house was the reason not to stay there anymore.
When we called Father Ray the next day, he asked what we were still doing there.
He was surprised that we were still even in the house and it hadn't even occurred to us Even at that point, to just up and abandon everything and get in the van and leave.
That night, Kathy had levitated and moved away from me on the bed.
Now, now, now, wait a minute.
Slow up right there.
Sure.
Kathy levitated.
Yes.
Now, you were both in bed?
Yes.
And you were both awake or both asleep at the time or what?
Kathy was asleep.
She was asleep.
And she lifted up off the bed and went towards the wall away from me.
This is after she had turned into an old clone, a really ugly old woman that literally took hours and hours for it to go away.
In front of your face?
Yes, and then later she did that again at her mom's house after we moved out of the house and moved in with her mom.
Oh my God, you're sitting there watching your wife and she turns and, like the picture of Dorian Gray, she almost instantly becomes an old woman?
Yes.
And then that effect remains for hours?
Remains, yeah.
One time it was longer than just a few hours.
What happened, Art, was that these things, in and by themselves, for example, everyone in that house, all my kids and Kathy, slept on their stomachs in that house.
After we moved out, we found out that the DeFeo murders all of, the whole family had slept on their stomachs.
They were all murdered in their sleep.
None of them got up.
None of them got out of bed or were awakened, evidently, by the sounds of the rifle going off, killing all six of them.
There were no drugs found in their bodies in the autopsy.
And they were all sleeping face down.
I was the only one that could not sleep face down in that house.
I never slept face down before that.
Couldn't do it there.
Through all of this, George, did you ever question your own sanity?
I mean, we don't often look at our wives and see them become a 90-year-old woman instantly and then have that remain for hours.
I mean, we just don't.
Did you question your own sanity?
Sure.
Many, many times in many different ways.
What about the effect on Kathy?
Kathy, was she questioning your sanity or her own, or were you beginning to understand it was the house?
Kathy was damaged in a different way.
Each of us were affected in a different way.
I think Kathy was damaged in a different way than I was.
I think that for her, in so many ways, it was much harder for her to recover over the years and be able to put it in a place, so to speak, give it some distance.
Even after moving to California and then later on to Arizona, there were times when she was much more sensitive.
That I was.
Do you think she's alright with it now?
Has she come to terms now with it?
Or is it still a bad word haunting her?
When we did a special for the History Channel two years ago and that interview was some eight hours and she was hooked up to oxygen.
She has a disorder, a breathing disorder called Valley Fever that is quite serious, quite debilitating and right now she's still in A form of a hospital that deals with respiratory diseases.
Yeah, I saw the oxygen tubes.
Yes, well she's had a relapse since then.
That was a very hard day for her.
It was, the interview was I think something like eight and a half hours and then afterwards we went out to dinner.
So it was a long day for her.
And there are times when, you know, certain questions will come up and be worded in a certain way that are really You can see the effect on her, sure, but that happens to me as well.
It's not a comfortable subject.
It's not something that has a lot of humor in it.
Humor is the one thing that does make it less strong, less affecting of you.
I understand that.
I use it myself.
It is a wonderful tool to deal with this kind of thing.
The movie, of course, dramatized the ooze out of the walls and the flies and all the rest of that.
Well, the flies were real.
The flies were?
Tell me about that.
The flies were, this is the wintertime, and the back bedroom, that one sewing room, had flies from the day we moved in, and they became more and more and more.
And they were there when the investigators went in.
Just on the back window, and they That's the same window that Mary saw the, I guess you'd call it an apparition, or a person from looking up at it.
Flies were always there.
They were always there?
They didn't go away.
You'd kill them and they'd still come back.
Really?
So that part was real?
Not the oozing out of the walls.
Not the oozing out of the walls?
It's one of those things that in fact is sometimes, in my mind at least, stranger than than fiction. What really happened that I think they tried
to draw that from, what really happened in the house was that there were keyholes, old
style doors. The house was built in the 30s and it had old style keyholes. I remember them,
yes. We had drips that got longer and longer, they were black, they were almost like
an epoxy. And the longer we were in the house, the longer the drips came out of certain keyholes
on the second and third Oh, so there was some basis in truth.
Yes, but not the oozing out of the walls.
Not the oozing, but something.
And then there was, we would wake up in the morning and we would find this gelatin-like substance going from room to room.
And you would think, well, the kids got into Jell-O or, you know, somebody did something.
But there was no Jell-O in the house at the time and the kids didn't do that.
And it was sticky, and it was there, and it was there for the... So what did you do with this stuff?
Just try and clean it up, or what?
Well, it was like spots.
It wasn't like a, you know, a big mess of some kind.
It just, it trapped from room to room.
Uh-huh.
Huh.
And Kathy would wipe it up.
And just move on.
So, um, that was occurring every day?
No, that would, I mean, you couldn't depend on anything.
The one thing, thank God, is the lights didn't go out.
At no time did they, you know, they would flicker but they did not go out.
They would flicker though?
Yeah.
So I guess I see what you mean by a three-ring circus.
All of this kind of thing was going on.
Well, I'm sorry, I strayed from where I was going before.
One of the things was that I would be laying there in bed on my back and everyone else would be asleep.
The house would be quiet and I'd be getting ready to go to sleep and I would hear Or I would be already asleep and I would wake up to a sound of musicians tuning up downstairs.
Really?
And I would think that our clock radio went off and it was off the station or something like that and there is no clock radio down there.
That's the first thing that comes to your mind.
You wouldn't know what else it could be.
Go down there and there'd be no noise and the dog would be asleep right by the front door.
Harry was a big black malamute.
He wasn't a shirking little princess.
He was a really cool dog.
He was in love with those kids.
He was gotten as a tiny puppy.
I don't know whether you've ever been asked this, George, but it's a logical question in view of the DeFeo slaughter.
Was there ever a time when you found your mind drifting to an awful place where you were perhaps being urged to or considered
doing evil yourself george
not a question of ever answered in public it's uh...
uh...
i don't know that i'll answer you this straight out okay but i want to look at
it that's it The tool we mentioned of humor, I told Father Ray
Many of the things that went on for us, and he was the one that told me about humor.
That evil can't stand it, it can't be in the presence of it, it has no understanding of humor, it can't relate to it.
And it drives it away.
And I had to learn the mental ability, if you will, to be able to think of something humorous when I would get
a thought that I didn't like.
So you did answer it.
You did get them.
And that's how you responded.
That's the only thing that's ever worked other than the rosary.
A kind of a defense.
Humor is a defense.
There's no question about it.
I mean, you're right about that.
It is.
And so you were strong enough to muster that up as a defense?
Well, it became an exercise, but it took years to get for it to be just an exercise and not something that was a real struggle.
I understand that you actually began to have some feelings of sorrow or a caring about to fail, you know, going to be in jail for six life sentences.
And the only reason that I could understand that you would begin to get those feelings is because you would understand perhaps a little bit of what he went through.
And that's why I asked you the question, George.
There's no doubt in our minds.
There never has been any doubt after living there that a sane person doesn't do this to his family.
And someone with any kind of right thinking or ability to reason, that reason has been taken away or has been obfuscated in such a way as occluded or clouded or or they've been separated from their reasoning powers in a way that most of us hopefully will never understand and there's no doubt in my mind that he was influenced by that house and that he was controlled at least for a point he provided a service to that if you will that was so horrible that he couldn't live with it or realize it himself and without
Extreme, long-term psychiatric care is no help of redemption of any kind in this life.
Do you think that his case should be reviewed for the reasons you're talking about right now?
I don't know if that matters.
It probably doesn't, but it's an important question.
He's had his appeals.
They've failed.
I think that a disservice was done to him Terribly years ago that he that it that it wasn't a full-blown insanity plea that it wasn't appealed on that basis that it That it wasn't an absolute that he needed psychiatric care and still does I think it's inhumane To think that okay.
They got the guy he did it.
Yes physically.
He did the murders, but spiritually emotionally No, I don't believe that he's In a pure sense, responsible for that as a human being.
I think that he needs help and I don't think that anyone cares enough to try to get it for him anymore.
We did what we could and we tried a number of different ways and his attorney, William Weber, wanted to do a book and make money off him and signed Ronald DeFeo up for a 5% cut of whatever book that his lawyer did, you know, put together.
So it became obvious that these people were not going to try to help him.
The final night that you spent in that house, you've never talked about.
You've always refused to talk about the last night in the house.
Why?
What happens, Art, is when you do that, the worst of it comes back.
It's not like it disappeared.
It's not like I can detach myself from it and just talk about it like what I did yesterday.
Not all of it, thank God, but it comes back and it's not a pleasant experience.
I was laying there in bed.
Kathy levitated and I had to grab her to keep her from going off the bed.
There is no question in your mind, George, you weren't dreaming this.
You weren't asleep.
I mean, it's an obvious question.
No, there's no question.
So very pleased, three years later, to have Chris Gougis come along and give us a polygraph test, each of us, in his office with Michael Rice.
I was not aware that had been done.
Yes, and one of the questions, well, it's a long process.
It's not like you walk in, strap on the machine, and go.
Oh yeah.
You have to agree to the questions.
They have to run a baseline.
They do a physiological Work up to get within that baseline so they can get the real responses.
Yes.
Chris Gugis had taught the use of the polygraph.
He was considered number two and number three man in the world at the time.
He had taught the use of the polygraph throughout the world for the armed forces, for the army, for their intelligence people.
He had been instructed personally by the head guy at the FBI.
So that was one of the questions he asked?
One of the questions was, did you levitate?
One of the questions was, did Kathy turn into an old woman?
And you answered them all and went sailing past the polygraph.
Absolutely.
Later, those findings were published in the National Star, of all things.
It was one of those things where the movie company was getting ready to release the movie, and they wanted to do this, and these are expensive tests.
Oh, I'm well aware.
They were willing to pay for it, and we said, get us the best there is, and we'll do it, otherwise we're not interested in doing it with someone that just got out of school.
Alright.
You get five questions, they have to be yes or no, and that, you know, you get one shot at doing this thing right.
It's not like you have... Well, George, you know, people who are lying, Usually don't agree to a polygraph.
That's for damn sure.
George, hold on.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
George Lutz, who, with his family, lived the Amityville Horror, is my guest.
And tonight, you're hearing the real story of what happened in that home.
From the high desert, I'm Mark Bell.
Don't you love me, I'd leave.
Don't you need her badly?
Don't you love her ways?
Tell me what you say!
Don't you love her badly?
Wanna meet her daddy?
Don't you love her face?
Don't you love her as she's walking out the door?
She did it one thousand times before Don't you love her ways?
Tell me what you say Don't you love her as she's walking out the door?
All your love, all your love, all your love, all your love, all your love is gone
To sing a lonely song of a deep blue dream Seven horses seem to be on the market
To reach Artvel in the Kingdom of Nigh from west of the Rockies Isle 1
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them
dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
Tonight, you're hearing what really happened at Amityville.
My guest is George Lux.
Can you imagine?
I'm going to ask in a moment.
I want to go back to it.
Can you imagine looking at your wife and seeing her instantly becoming An old woman, a very old woman, a 90 year old or better
woman.
To be hung to death.
Once again, here's George Lutz.
George, when you saw Kathy become a 90-year-old woman, or better, suddenly, I can't even imagine what would have gone through your mind.
I mean, it would have been like, out of this house, now.
Gone.
I'm out of here.
Running out of here, actually.
But to see that happen to your wife, apparently more than once?
Yes.
Yeah, more than once.
I mean, what went through your mind?
Aside from questioning your own sanity, once you realized this really was going on, what did you think was happening?
What occurs to me to answer you right now is that I'm thinking, how do we fix this?
What caused this?
But not putting it together with the house as such.
Did you think you were seeing your wife as an old woman, or did you think you were seeing something else?
I had watched The Transformation, so I knew it was her.
I wasn't going all kinds of other places, I don't think, in my mind.
It's so long ago now, Art, for me to try to tell you exactly what I was thinking then, I couldn't do it.
It wouldn't be right.
I'd be making something up that wouldn't be what went through my mind then.
I know the main thing was, how do we fix this?
What caused this?
That's the obvious stuff.
Alright, well obviously, aside... It's the revulsion that I remember feeling also.
I mean, this is not a pleasant thing.
Yeah, of course not.
And seeing somebody levitate in the air.
But I don't know that you put it to the house.
Well, I can understand.
I mean, you love that house.
You were trying, I'm sure, in your own mind, to think of anything else other than the house.
Absolutely.
When the odors occurred in the basement, you go looking for broken pipes or leaks.
Absolutely.
When you have noises, you go try to look for the cause of them.
We'd be sitting in the kitchen at night, and the kids would be asleep, and you'd hear someone upstairs walking around.
So you'd go up and you'd find all the kids were sleeping in bed.
So you'd come back down and a couple nights later you'd have some people over and they would hear the same thing.
Then you would know you weren't crazy and then you would know that something was going on that you don't really understand.
But that doesn't mean you just get up and leave your house.
Aside from having a priest in, you and Kathy tried to bless the house on your own, right?
Yes, we did.
Twice.
What happened?
We were basically told it didn't work.
We heard this chorus of voices, as it's been described, asking us to stop blessing the house.
We went around and opened a window in each room.
When I said earlier that you have people over and they hear the same thing, well, in the process of that, a fellow by the name of Bill Newcomb had come over and, excuse me for just a moment, I have to cough.
I understand.
I've been doing it non-stop here for days.
What a cold.
Yeah, yeah.
And he had a similar problem in his house when he was in a house that evidently was haunted.
And he said, you go around and you do the house blessing yourself.
You go around and you open a window and you turn and you say the Lord's Prayer.
You tell whatever is there to leave.
And then you close the window.
Well, that seemed like a reasonable solution, especially since here was someone that it had worked for.
And he had heard the footsteps, and he knew the kids were asleep, so we did that.
My son Danny's hands were caught in the window in the sewing room, and they were flattened.
His hands were down, and the window had flattened the hands.
The immediate reaction is we've got to go to the hospital and we start to get ready to go.
And what happened?
This window of its paranormal accord came slamming down on his hands?
Yes.
And it didn't just slam down.
It was mushed in such a way that his hands were actually deformed.
They were flat.
So he got ready to go to the hospital and he's screaming.
And everybody's running around getting their coats in and getting him downstairs and trying to calm him down.
It's pretty much impossible to go to leave and look at his hands and he's fine.
What?
Um... It didn't occur to us until much later that the house never really wanted us to leave.
We would always invite people over, you know, but we wouldn't... We would go out of our way not to leave, not to go out someplace.
While we were there we had enrolled in a reupholstery course at the local high school.
That's what these folks do, folks.
I'm sorry.
That's all right.
And we never went to any of the classes.
I mean, Kathy went out and bought the material to recover the dining room set that we had bought from the DeFeo Estate.
But we just don't go out.
That's a curious thing.
You did buy a number of things from the DeFeo Estate, from the house, right?
Why did you do that?
Just because it was a really good buy?
I mean, what was the reasoning?
Well, let's start with we had two houses.
Not both of us liked each other's furniture.
We had garage sales at Kathy's house.
We had garage sales at my house.
Now we're moving into a 4,000 square foot house and we've got to fill it up if we can with some stuff.
They made us a deal we kind of couldn't sort of refuse.
And they had nice stuff.
It wasn't like this was blood splattered or anything.
It was, you know... Good stuff, yeah.
The dining room set was extraordinary.
The kitchen set was lovely.
Some of the dresses that were up in Missy's room were fine.
There was no reason not to buy all of that.
It was there.
Yeah, and really, if you're buying the house and you're walking into that and you know what happened, then what's the difference between that and the furniture or the whatever?
Well, the mattresses weren't there.
Nothing like that.
I mean, we had our own beds.
It was one of those things that was decided at the closing.
What happened at the closing was that they had, the people that ran the estate had filled up the oil tank, which was almost another $2,000 in cash that was needed right then and there, too.
So the actual cash out of pocket at the closing, including the furniture and everything, was about $24,000, something like that.
On the last night that we were in there, I wasn't able to get up out of bed.
There was a storm going on as far as we were concerned as a family in the house while we were awake.
A storm in the house?
No, while we were in the house, there was a storm going on right around outside.
Okay.
Big storm.
Later, it has been said that there was no storm there.
Well, we know what we experienced.
As far as we're concerned, there was an incredible storm that night.
The boys Beds were being lifted up and slammed down overhead of me, but I could not get up out of bed to go up and deal with that, or stop it, or see what was going on.
What about Kathy?
That's when Kathy was levitating and moving away from me and turning into an old woman.
Kathy was mostly asleep that night.
Well, I had brought Harry, our dog, up and tied him to the master bedroom doorknob for him to stay there, right there, and he kept getting up Um, walking in circles, throwing up, and then going back to sleep again.
When you say you couldn't get up, you say you didn't sleep on your stomach, right?
Right.
I could not get up out of bed.
You literally couldn't move?
No, I could not move.
And this went on all night long?
This went on for most of the night.
The bed was soaking wet.
And it was from sweat.
Prior to this night, had you been talking to Kathy at all privately?
I would assume you would have conversations with Kathy about what was going on aside from the children.
Yes, and she would tell me what Missy would say to her.
The boys were treating each other differently than they had before we moved in there.
Everyone kind of went to their own spaces at times.
For each of us, we learned later, it was a different experience at times in the house.
It wasn't like we all experienced everything in unison or saw the same things or heard the same things.
Well, that's the next question I was going to ask.
Do you have any knowledge, George?
I asked you about your own state of mind and whether you were perhaps being pushed to do something awful or felt moments of that.
I wonder if since you found out that anybody else in the family was being pushed in one way or the other.
You'll need to ask me that again a different way if you would.
Sorry, I don't want to answer this in a way that I am assuming what you're asking me.
Yeah.
Are you now aware that anybody else in your family Was being affected in a particularly negative way, perhaps to the degree that they might have done something awful.
And if you don't want to answer that... No, I'm not aware of that.
No, that's not... The boys were little.
Unfortunately in America, we live in a time where little boys have done some pretty awful things.
And so, you know, if there really was If there was evil in that home, George, its effect could have been different on each and every one of you.
It was different on each of us, Art, but I don't think of it in those terms.
I have never considered that that was a strong possibility.
One of the things we did, going back to your previous question, though, and this will probably help with this, is we tried to talk to Father Ray a number of times.
Phone static, got hung up on, unable to call him from the house.
I would go to my office and I'd be able to talk to him and tell him what was going on.
We asked him to come back to the house.
To bless it, you know, the blessing hadn't worked.
When we got through to him the next morning, after our last night there, and he asked us why we were still there, that's when it was like slammed home, we gotta leave.
He's not coming here.
He's not going to do anything, and we're not going through any more of this.
Well, did he ever break down and actually tell you what he really thought about that house?
Obviously, if he said, well, you're still there, like that.
Yes, he did.
It was after we moved out.
And what did he say?
His words were almost parallel to Father Malachi's in some ways.
He said they knew about the house, meaning the archdiocese, the Catholic Church.
Oh.
That they knew that there had been things that had gone on when the DeFeo's were there.
The DeFeo's had had masses set there, which may have very well triggered what went on for them, just like having the House of Blessed did for us.
When I heard, and I never heard the words myself on your show that Father Malachi said, but when I heard that He said the church knew about this?
Yes.
That was not a surprise to me.
It was a surprise that he said it on the air live, because the church has denied and denied and denied the existence of evil in the house at that time.
Well, George, Father Martin admitted and said a lot of things that the church as an organization would not be willing to.
Father Martin was close to a couple of popes.
He was way up in the Catholic Church at one point.
Father Martin sent him things about the church and the Vatican itself that I'm sure the Vatican would have preferred he not say.
I considered that truly a heroic act.
Oh indeed.
When I heard that because the church has gone to great lengths in different interviews and at different times to deny that there was any validity to this case.
And for him to say that and know it And I've heard this from other priests privately over the years, but the church has never, you know, said, look, we know there's a problem with the details of that house, and we believe that there's something really wrong there.
You know, it's a strange thing, George, when you think about it a little bit.
My wife is a non-practicing Catholic.
I'm not a Catholic, and I'm, I think I'm, you know, I'm not Very strictly in a church religious way.
That's not me.
I think that I certainly believe in a creator and so forth and so on, but I think it's strange, George, that the church itself, which preaches that there is a God and there is a heaven and there is all the rest of it, seems, particularly in modern times, to be in denial about the opposite, about evil, which so obviously to even a I think of it in a different way.
I'm not going to say that I disagree with you.
I understand why you say what you do.
good i mean there seems to be an opposite everything then you know there's also people in the world in the
church seems to be in official
denial about people you agree with that
i think it in a different way i'm not going to take it that i disagree with
you i understand why you say what you do
i think and i have no idea
really why i'm more tolerant maybe then
being so quick to condemn the Catholic Church like so many people are right now?
I don't know if this is really... I don't know if it's condemnation.
I understand, but I... I... Look, I'm... I'm a divorced Catholic.
I can't partake of the sacraments.
I became a Catholic after this.
Voluntarily.
At one point I was a Eucharistic minister in San Diego, at the Mission San Diego de Alcala.
Which is the Basilica in San Diego.
Nothing pleased me more than to be a part of the Church.
But when I got divorced from Kathy, my ability to partake in the sacraments was gone.
And that hurt.
And it still does.
I went to Mass for the first time on Christmas Eve.
First time in something like 13, 12 or 13 years.
thirteen twelve thirteen years this last week
and uh...
it wasn't the same as going to a master for the Ray said.
When you went to Mass with Fr.
Ray, it was a joyous celebration.
And this was a serious Christmas Eve Mass and there was nothing wrong with it.
It was like the heart had gone out of some of it.
And I miss that.
And I will always support the Catholic Church.
If they have, for their reasons, done and said things that they believe are right and they can believe in their heart is true, okay.
But we have pictures of apparently what is a very good likeness of Padre Pio, who is now Saint Pio, in the house appearing.
They're on the side of a moose head that was my grandfather's.
And at the time that that picture was taken, Lorraine Warren, one of the psychiatrists in the house who's been on your show, was saying a prayer to Padre Pio, asking him to come and be with her in spirit there at the house.
This is during the investigation.
And so, I don't, you know, the picture is more important to me than what the church says, what some priest says that wasn't there.
The picture means more to me.
And I hold Padre Pio very dear in my heart.
And always will.
George, the last night, the last night in the house, do you remember the time, the actual time of day you left?
Was it morning?
Was it night time?
Somewhere around 4 in the afternoon.
Oh, in the afternoon, really?
So, you had that horrible night.
Where you couldn't get out of bed, and then you had all day long until four in the afternoon before you left that house.
What was that day like?
Well, it's that idea that the house doesn't want you to leave.
Getting out of that house wasn't easy, even after Father Ray saying, what are you still doing there?
Get out.
Can't you go someplace?
You can go to Tabby's mom's house.
Go someplace.
Go to Lee's mom's house.
Did he think you could ever get back in or did he mean leave and don't ever go back?
No, he never, I don't think we would have left if he had said, as silly as that sounds, I don't think we would have left if he had said to us, no, you're leaving and you're leaving your stuff and you're not coming back and forget it.
I don't think he could have gotten us out.
I think without him choosing the right words, that was one of those things about meeting him that was just so extraordinary about him.
He later went on and got a degree in forensic psychiatry.
He just knew what to say to move you, to get you to do what you needed to do, even if you were in denial.
The only other priest I ever found like that was the Archbishop of Canterbury's exorcist, Reverend Neil Smith.
That was years later when we did a book tour for the original book in London, England.
We met with him through a reporter for the London Times.
Her name is Daini Brook, and she had even published a book on natural childbirth.
She was quite a well-known reporter at the time, and she introduced us, made arrangements to meet with Reverend Neal Smith, and he performed for us what some people would call an exorcism.
I call it more of a blessing.
But it was a rite of separation in the Anglican Church.
And it was a separation from the house, from the effects of the house.
He looked right at Kathy and said, you're still affected by this.
Did Father Ray think that if you didn't leave that house, somebody was going to die?
Yes, he did.
Hold on, George.
George Lutz is my guest.
He, along with his family, lived the Amityville Horror.
Tonight, you're hearing what really went on in that house.
From the High Desert, I'm Mark Bell.
I can feel it coming.
All our times have come. Here but now they're gone.
All our times have come We're fucked now, let it go
Seasons don't feel the rebirth Nor do the wind, the sun or the rain
Seasons don't feel the rebirth. Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain.
We could meet again Come on baby, don't feel the rebirth
We can be like they are. Come on baby, don't feel the rebirth.
Baby take my hand, don't feel the rebirth We'll be able to fly, don't feel the rebirth
Baby take my hand, don't feel the rebirth.
Baby I'm your man La la la la la la
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh from Western the Rockies at 1-800-325-4000
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
the Rockies 1-800-825-5033. First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222 and the wildcard
line is open at 1-775-727-1295. To reach out on the toll free international line, call
your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
The Amityville Horror, the real thing.
George Lutz is here.
He, with his family, lived the Amityville Horror, the real thing.
That's what we're talking about tonight.
We'll get right back to it.
Stay right there.
Don't fear the Reaper.
I don't fear death, but I do fear evil.
There's a big difference, I think.
Now, George, I'm going to revisit this again, and I know you've never really answered this publicly when I asked you about your state of mind through this and whether you ever thought that you were perhaps on the edge or even considering even flitting through your mind that you might do something bad.
There was a story that you took your gun, you had a gun.
Yes, I'm sorry, I can't get this to go off the speaker phone now, so I'm going to have to talk to you on the speaker.
Oh, that's really bad.
Let's see, just put it on hold and then pick up the phone.
Try that.
It didn't work.
It didn't work?
For the whole break I've been trying to get this to go off the speaker.
I was on the speaker so I could make sure I got back here on time.
Oh my goodness!
Alright, uh, maybe it's still following you from Amityville.
I mean, that shouldn't be.
No, this is the first time it's ever happened with this phone.
So I'll tell you what I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna call your number back.
Okay, if you hang up on me, then I'll just pick it up and it won't be on speaker.
You got it.
Okay, sorry about this.
That's alright.
Maybe something is following us.
Who knows?
Wait a minute, I don't want to do that.
I don't want to do that.
Go away.
There we go.
Well now it's not strange.
My phone is acting strange too.
Let's try this again.
Alright.
Let's give it a try.
This is really weird.
You never know.
You never know.
Sometimes just talking about these things seems to bring them on.
I've been concerned about that for years.
Let's give it a try here.
George?
Are we back on the phone?
Yes, I am.
All right, oh, very good.
All right, let me try again now.
George, again, with regard to your state of mind, there was a story that you went to the Amityville Police Department and you turned in your gun, saying that you perhaps had an impulse to murder your family.
Is that a bogus story, or did you turn in your gun?
I had a license to carry a firearm in Nassau and Suffolk counties in upstate New York, but not in the five boroughs in New York City.
Right.
And the Sullivan Act in New York prohibited that, prohibited it, and it's a felony.
Right.
So we were going into the city, so the proper thing to do is to drop it off at a local police station.
That's what I always did.
Uh-huh.
No, nothing else to that story.
So there was nothing about any impulse or any of the rest of it?
It was just you dropped it off?
Right, that's what you're supposed to do.
Were you ever concerned about the fact that you were in possession of a gun?
I mean, did that ever give you pause for thought?
Well, it's a responsibility, but not in terms of the house.
Yeah, okay, that's what I meant.
Yeah, not in terms of the house.
No, I had a cash payroll for my business, that's why I had a license to carry it.
It's not an easy thing to get.
I know.
Alright, you left the house four o'clock one afternoon, you just Enough is enough.
You left.
I mean, did you?
What did you think at that moment?
Did you think, look, I'm leaving this house.
I'm never coming back.
I'm going to leave everything I own virtually in the house and just get in the car and go?
No, absolutely not.
I probably would not have left the house, Art.
I wouldn't have been able to give it up.
My boat, motorcycles, everything was there.
Yeah, I know.
A little thing like the 16mm movies of my whole family.
I had just gotten them from my mom so that I could put them together and make a family movie from the time we were little kids.
All that kind of stuff.
It just goes on and on and on.
No, we were going to have his mom's to stay there at Father Ray's.
Direction, suggestion, and that was the mission.
Just leave the house with the boys, a couple of changes of clothes, and go.
Get the dog and go.
So that's what we did.
The world became very small there.
You didn't want to go out, and leaving the house was a problem.
So to venture someplace, you had to form it in your mind.
I didn't go to the office anywhere near as often as I had before this.
Before, I'd go six days a week, sometimes seven.
I'd be lucky to show up three times a week while I was living in that house.
Really?
So, it was having a profound psychological effect on you?
It changed everyone's point of view about life and what was important.
Kathy always described the house as charming and then she thought about it after we left and said, yeah, it really was charming.
It really charmed her.
So, you intended what then?
When you left, you were going to come back?
In other words, you thought you would come back eventually?
Oh yes, and for Let's say the first week out of the house the hardest thing for me was to drive past that exit and Go on to cabbie's mom's house.
All my stuff is there and keep going.
Yeah and there were a couple times when it was a real struggle with just Mentally keep going to cabbie's mom's house and not stop and check on my stuff.
So George, why didn't you go back?
What stopped you?
I Went back once With another psychic, his name is Dr. Heffernan.
He said that he cleared the house.
He said that we would... Kathy didn't come with me.
It was a Sunday afternoon.
He had a little girl with him.
He went into a trance.
He had someone else with him as well.
He said we would smell violets and know that the house was cleared.
I didn't smell them.
I wasn't convinced.
And that was the last time I was there.
So... When Laura Dedeo found the Warrens and got them to come down, she had wanted to get Hans Holzer to come, and he was busy at the time.
He went to the house later.
I met with them, gave them the key, but I would not go in the house.
Yeah, I heard that.
The idea was to get the house fixed.
When they tell me the house is fixed, then I'll go back, but not until...
And when Ed Warren said this is, and he wanted, you know, they went in, Ed and Lorraine and Loretta Dale went in the house.
Ed said he wanted to put more people together and come back with a team.
And we invited in the people from Duke University, from the Psychical Research Institute there.
And, you know, Mary maybe didn't make it clear earlier this evening.
She had her own school where she taught psychics in Connecticut.
And after leaving the house, she moved to Florida.
She up and left.
The house affected her life so much.
They came in with the team and they all met and they still had the key.
And it was like, okay, go do what you're going to do.
And when Ed came back afterwards and said, I'm not going back.
I can't do this.
And you're going to have to get an exorcist to come in and exorcise the house.
He's going to have to say math in the house.
And basically he'll be putting his life on the line to do it.
Uh, how do you go and ask someone to do that for a house?
Yeah.
So, then we were, then the idea started to settle in that we're, we're stuck here now.
Um, we've got this, we've got everything there.
I've still got my business and we're living in Callie's mom's house, but life can't continue this way.
Was there, was there a profound change when you moved to, uh, To your relative's house.
I mean, was there a profound relief?
Was it obviously at that point over, or was something still with you?
No, it kept going on, but it was different.
Cavi turned into the old woman again in front of her mom, which then gave a witness that was different from just me.
Sure.
Cavi and I, when we took the polyps test years later with Chris Kugis, one of the things we wanted to make sure that Got covered in the test.
Is it true that you levitated at your mom's house after leaving?
Yes, we did.
We levitated together that time and that was a pleasant experience.
That was not scary or frightening.
We were talking to each other.
We were in the bedroom.
We shared a single bed there, a little cot.
But that wasn't an unpleasant experience by any means.
George, does Kathy still talk about this or not?
She did for the History Channel two years ago.
Right now, even getting up is a real problem for her, physically.
But there's eight hours of tape that MPH has that we did that interview side-by-side.
So I would have to say yes, of course.
When the current owners of that house Now say that nothing is going on, that they believe the house is clear and everything's just spiffy and okay.
Do you buy that?
I'm glad that they're able to say that, and I have no reason to think otherwise.
I'm not there.
I haven't been back there in 25 years.
Whatever's going on for them is their business.
They knew what they were buying when they bought it.
Well, by then they certainly did.
We gave it back to the bank.
Couldn't stomach the idea of selling it to another family.
You know, that's another thing that I think the audience should understand.
There have been allegations over the years that this was a hoax, that some big money-making affair on your part.
So you lost the house.
You had to give the house back to the bank.
And while people have made millions, I guess, on the book and the movie and whatever else has come out about Amityville, The History Channel, I forget, or ABC, I can't recall which one, said, look, the Lutzes may have made a grand total of $300,000 minus, no doubt, attorneys' fees and a lot of other stuff.
No, I think the $300,000 or so would be the expendable after the taxes and all the rest.
And even after attorneys.
Yeah, sure.
There have been a number of lawsuits about this over the years.
What happened is we moved out in January of 76.
We bought it in November, so 28 days later when we moved out, which is like a full cycle of the moon, which I don't know whether that matters or not, but we kept, eventually I sold my business, I put it up for sale in the Long Island, in the New York State Surveyor's Civil Engineering Magazine, and the first buyer bought it.
We wrote up a contract right then and there between the two of us.
A couple days later, his attorney and my attorney put it into formal language, transferred the ownership.
My grandfather had died during that time and some of his furniture that my mom and my aunts did not want from his house, we got some of that furniture and I had one motorcycle that I managed to hold on to and Salvage from the whole thing.
A couple people went in on Easter Sunday for us and got my grandfather's chest back out, which was just about all that we were able to get out of the house.
We donated the food to the Salvation Army and that was it for that.
On Mother's Day of 1976, we landed in San Diego on a plane.
We gave the car away.
One of the last office cars that I had gave it to the guy that I had one car still there that we had bought.
We got rid of the van because it developed a problem that wouldn't go away.
is the title on the news and you were really come all times were told it was gone
yeah you bet i had one car still there that we had bought uh... we got
rid of the band because it developed a problem that
wouldn't go away so i bought a uh... nineteen seventy three thunderbird used
car uh... that we used for and then i left that at father ray's rectory
and we went on out to san diego and we got off the plane and we had hotel reservations up in
del mar we stayed at del mar and for a couple weeks and uh... caddy found a
condo for us to rent over in la jolla and we stayed there for a while and then
i went back to get the car meanwhile caddy found a house out in terra santa
and we moved there at the house for a couple years and eventually we bought a house up and are part of it
And at this point, do you think the effect of what had happened to you was gone or still in some way with you?
I kind of always looked at it like it had a half-life.
I eventually came to believe that the half-life wasn't necessarily the same as it would have been for something radioactive, but that as time went on, it would go away, it would get less, it would get less.
There were many times when we really made an effort not to blame everything that went wrong in our lives on the house.
And so we would be asking, we'd say, yeah, you know, it appears to be over.
It's over.
You know, for us, it's gone.
And then so many other things would go wrong.
I'll give you an example.
When we left New York, we didn't have a book contract.
We had a, Weber, DeFeo's attorney, had asked us to sign a book contract with him, and we refused because he was, because of all the, this was a really thick contract, and it was very disturbing.
This is a guy that was trying to get us to donate the house to his corporation, and then take lie detector tests, and if we failed the lie detector tests, then we were going to give him the house anyway and everything else.
Plus, he was going to get to say what we did with the rest of our lives with regard to the story, and it was just beyond belief.
Plus, he was going to pay to fail 5% of proceeds for murdering his family.
So, a friend of ours hooked us up with Tam Mossman, who's the editor for Jane Roberts' books, the Seth Speaks books that Prentiss Hall had published, and Tam Mossman knew Jay Anson and had suggested him.
We met with Jay Anson, we spoke with him, we gave him the research materials we had done on the house and some tapes that Kathy and I had done just to undo this.
We were sitting around talking about it at Kathy's mom's house afterwards, over the weeks after we had left the house.
And said, look, we're not going to sit down and be interviewed about this.
You can do what you can from the tapes, and then we'll try to correct whatever you write or help you out with that.
But we're just not going to relive this.
We've done it once, and we're not doing it again.
We did it for the tapes.
We went to California, and a year and a half later, the end of August in 1977, is when we actually had a book contract.
Then, right after that, Anson sold the rights for the movie rights to CBS without our permission.
He just went ahead and did it.
And then AIP found out about American International Pictures, and what they did was they went and got the rights from CBS and came to us and said, we're going to make a movie.
And we said, how are you going to do that?
You don't have our permission to do that, and it's our story.
And so we had to renegotiate all of that.
And in the process of that, then we were finally able to get some control back over what happened with the story in the future.
Not then, but in the future.
So we got what's known as the sequel rights, which is very rare.
You just don't do that.
And it was just one of those things that just happened to work out right.
Who was ever thinking of sequels then?
Oh, of course.
The Anson did a deal with us that it was about eight Nine years later that we discovered that he and Myron Saland, who he had worked for at the time at Professional Films, they became the producers for the movie, and so far they've made about $22 million personally between the two of them.
So in other words, a lot of people have made a lot of money.
Well, Anson and Saland, from this, the author of the original book, he made at least $10 million for himself.
Millions and millions.
And you cleared maybe $300,000.
We cleared after taxes and lawyers, yeah. $300,000.
So... We got the sequel right, so no one can do anything with the aboriginal horror story in the future without our permission.
Mm-hmm.
Which may, I guess one can hope, will turn out well for you.
Who knows?
Well, my attitude about it has always been one that not necessarily everyone understands or agrees with, but it's one I came to on my own, and that is that whatever exposes this stuff happens, and we didn't know that.
And we learned that from the people that we were fortunate enough to meet along the way, and people don't talk about it.
And we can understand why they don't, because we understood there'd be controversy, and we understood there'd be naysayers, and... Oh, there's always those, George.
I've had them all the time I've been doing this program.
Stay right where you are, we'll be right back.
When we get back, we'll try and pick up a few questions from all of you out there.
You've got the numbers.
We're here.
It's too early now.
Too early.
Because I'm still warm in my neck It's time to take a chance
Yellow storm on the loose Sirens in my head
Wrapped up in silence Lost to this event
Can I be cold?
My whole life spins into a frenzy Some bells in the morning when I'm straight
I hear them ringing in my head Some bells in the morning when I'm straight
I hear them ringing in my head Some bells in the morning when I'm straight
Some bells in the morning when I'm straight I'm gonna open up your gate
And maybe tell you about Phaedra And how she gave me life
And how she made it in Some velvet morning when I was trained
Flowers growing on our hill Driving flies and cat for deals
Learn from us very much Look at us but do not touch
Fedra is my name you
To recharge Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
It is.
George Lux is my guest.
He, with his family, lived the real Amityville horror.
In a moment, we'll get back to him.
If you have a question, that's what our phone lines are for.
So, uh...
It's now or never.
I'm intensely curious about something, George.
You contacted me, and you obviously then wanted to do this interview.
I wonder why.
You're going off the air, and I never have talked to you.
That's true.
You have the greatest respect around the country, around the world, about these kinds of things.
Well, I surely appreciate your having contacted me.
And there's another side to this.
And you and I spoke of this.
Yes.
The part about Father Malachi Martin was very important to me.
I haven't been able to verify it with your archives.
It's just my inability to find the right program when he said that.
And when he exposed it for what it was, that wasn't very important to me.
But also, over the years there have been some, I don't know how to put it, real loud mouth people about calling this a hoax.
And it's not a hoax.
And I've gotten to the point where I'm really tired of even hearing that.
Yeah, I never thought it was a hoax, George, for what that's worth.
It's the kind of thing that has hurt my family for a long time, and I've gotten to a place, mentally or spiritually, with it all that just says, you know, bring it on, because this is what happens.
This is the truth.
These things happen, and I understand why people don't talk about them when they do happen to them.
In my own opinion, I would do fictional books, fiction books based on fact, and factual books.
Anything at all to expose the existence of this stuff, to get people to read about it and question it.
All right.
I've got somebody else you might know on the phone.
Joel Martin.
Joel was the Long Island correspondent for the Associated Press at the time of the DeFeo Massacre.
The first reporter actually to arrive at the scene of those murders.
Joel, hi.
Thank you for getting to us.
You're on the air, Joel.
Oh, good morning, Art.
Good morning.
You and I have really never met.
No, we were on the History Channel special together and we talked on the phone years ago, but somehow we kept missing each other.
We were on the Lou Gentile Show.
Yes, I was on the Lou Gentile Show recently as well.
And as you know, I was the first reporter there that horrible night in November of 1974, and I saw one of the dead bodies and later was questioned by the DA and then you know became involved with the
the beside of the story that uh...
called it a hoax as you just uh... referred to and uh... but i don't know about the years and years of
listening to stephen caplan debate the weber's and uh... i believe i'm forgive
me for the warren about whether it was true or not
and i would be not the same opinion is steve capitol that it was a a a
whole kid i don't believe that at all
what i wanted you to do i was hopeful was to clear up some of the questions i had because
when i was there the first night in seventy four i'd ever thought the story
would continue Then, five years later, I had that exclusive radio interview with Bill Weber, and he contradicted a lot of what you said, or at least, you know, raised doubts about it.
Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe, what do you want cleared up?
What I'd like cleared up is what George Watts' opinion is of what Kaplan said, which was counter to what George said, and what Bill Weber said.
Which took issue with what George said, and I don't want to argue it, I would just love to hear George's opinion, simply because we haven't met to talk about it.
Alright, George?
Actually, you can add a new one to that, someone that calls herself Geraldine DeFeo as well, and I understand, you know, that she... He's to the Rockies, call toll free 1-800-825-5033.
Did he interview you recently?
He met me, he and Geraldine did both meet me, that's right.
Did they interview you?
Well, you know, they kind of asked questions, frankly.
It wasn't a formal interview where we sat down and they, you know, said, well, let's take notes.
It wasn't the kind of thing a reporter does.
But yeah, they definitely questioned me.
And is she someone that you knew back then?
Was he?
Geraldine.
It's interesting about Geraldine.
Geraldine claims to be married to what?
To Ronnie DeFeo.
Yes.
Geraldine's physical appearance today, to be kind, is not anywhere near what it looked like back in the 1970s.
Now, I don't know what her role was back in the 1970s, but if you ask me, do I recognize a girl who looks something like that back around the time when this happened?
Yeah, she does look like her.
What she did or what her role was, you would know.
And those are the kind of things I was curious about getting answered, since I never believed... I never thought I'd fall into the story, though, so heavily.
Did you ever hear back then that she was married to him?
Back then?
Yes.
No, no.
Nothing like that?
No.
No one ever knew that?
No.
There was no, never brought up in the trial, not by Weber, no one?
No.
So, for all practical purposes, in the 70's she didn't exist?
For all practical purposes, there was a girl who looked like that, but in terms of the story she tells, no, I never heard that story in the 70's, I never heard that story until much, much more recently.
But, you know, I recall the face, but that doesn't necessarily suggest that what she says is You know exactly what happened.
Joel, you've obviously followed this story for all these years.
Oh, God, yeah.
Are you... I mean, how do you feel?
I mean, do you think something happened in that house that took the luxes out of it?
Yeah, you know what?
What I think, frankly, I did not have the privilege of interviewing Malachi Martin more than one time.
I know you did many, many times.
Yes, I did.
Yeah.
But I tend to agree with this concept that you mentioned before, and I don't know if you're referring to your own or Malachi Martin's.
I've been listening to Since this began.
It's fascinating, by the way.
I'm thoroughly enjoying it.
I think that if you say there's good, you have to say there's evil.
And I do think that if you fool around with things that you don't understand, you could be fooling around with things that are evil.
And do you think that's what happened to the Lutzes?
Yeah, absolutely.
Alright, alright, Joel.
Thank you.
I'm going to go ahead and disconnect there.
Do you want to go ahead and address anything, George?
Sure, I'd like to.
Deal with what Joel brought up, which was about Stephen Kaplan and William Weber.
They're individuals that came to us in different ways.
We sought out Weber, found out that he was the attorney for DeFeo, and so we contacted him through a friend of ours, Mimi Vetter, who worked as a receptionist, I believe it was, or an assistant of some kind at his dentist's office.
She got a hold of him for us, We talked to him on the phone, told him that we had lived in the house, that we believed we had information that would help get him help of some kind, help get DeFeo help, and we agreed to meet with him.
And he came over to Kathy's mom's a couple of Saturdays and we sat and we talked.
At one time he introduced to us a fellow who was supposed to be a criminologist who eventually Did an article that was unauthorized that was published in Good Housekeeping Magazine and another one in the New York Mirror, I think it was, Sunday News Mirror.
Weber is a slick guy.
He's a guy that will say what he wants to to fit the moment.
It became obvious to him when we left for California and had our attorney Frank Giorgio noticed him formally that our story was ours, and we were not going to do a contract with him about a book, and we didn't want anything more to do with that.
We weren't interested in dealing with him.
And they wrote back and acknowledged that, and then he goes and he gets Paul Hoffman to do this Good Housekeeping article, and Bernthal wasn't even going to publish the book after that was done.
It wasn't that the article was inaccurate.
The problem was that that was done without our permission under Less than honorable circumstances to say the least.
I mean this guy was represented to us as a criminologist helping Ronald DeFeo get mental help and instead he's a writer trying to make money for Weber.
Now still, I can't for one second imagine that you would have two seconds of interest in helping in any way or feeling compassion for DeFeo unless you understood A very profound reason why you should feel that compassion, and that could have only come from your experience in the house.
I mean, where else?
And this guy killed that.
I mean, he just literally took that possibility of DeFeo not sitting in jail for no, and I shouldn't say no reason, but for no good purpose.
I mean, he belongs in jail, don't misunderstand it, but a mental jail, one where he can get some help.
I understand, and we're so short on time.
First time caller line, very quickly, you're on the air with George Lux.
Do you have a question?
Hello?
Going once.
Going twice.
Gone.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with George Lux.
Do you have a question?
Art?
Yes.
Okay, I want to ask him if the proof, the personal proof of evil in his life resulted in a That's a good question.
I think we answered it the other way around.
But really, George, the fact that you experienced that evil validates the fact that there's this good as well, right?
Father Ray taught me something very interesting that at first almost sounded sacrilegious in a way.
It sounded weird.
He said, you know, the thing about prayer is that it makes God say yes when he had said no all along.
That answers it, I guess.
These are the Rockies.
You're on there with George Lux.
Hi.
Hi.
Do you think that your wife, you mentioned that she looked almost like a crone once or twice or several times.
Do you think, did she realize that that change was taking place or was that just in your eyes that that happened?
No, she realized it.
She could look in the mirror, and when her mom was there, it was even, it was worse.
Yeah, remember, sir, her mother saw this as well.
It wasn't just George.
Right?
Yes.
Okay, thank you.
You're welcome.
You're very welcome.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with George Lux.
Do you have a question?
Yes, hello?
Hello.
Ardell, this is my last farewell.
I'm a great fan.
Thank you.
God bless you, and probably the last time I'll be I've been talking to you for the rest of my life, so God bless you and I hope and pray that your back will heal.
Thank you.
And first and foremost, I heard a rumor that the property has a history of some kind of Indian burial ground or some kind of... Oh, yes.
...that the ground itself was either sacred or it had some kind of Indian connotation.
I actually heard a rumor that some Indian artifact or skull even had been found At that property.
Is there any truth in any of that, George, that you're aware of?
When we first visited the Amigos Historical Society, we obtained maps and all kinds of information that we turned over to Anson that included that area as having been a place where there were Indians buried.
And that they were... They're insane.
The ones they didn't know what to do with were There was even a rumor at the time, and printed in some of the stuff in the Historical Society, that they were chained to trees and left to die there.
Not the nicest of circumstances by any means.
When the Amityville story was published, all of a sudden the Historical Society secreted that information away.
Other people have been in contact with previous curators that know of this and are willing to talk about it.
But as far as the town is concerned and the Amityville Historical Society know, that was never true.
What happened later was, and I was still talking about some of Weber, Weber invited Hans Holzer to come in and investigate the house.
Now Holzer is on shows like Joel Martin saying, you know, this whole thing's a hoax.
But then he's calling up Hans Holzer to go in and verify that the house is haunted.
Pretty weird stuff when you put the two things together.
Why is this guy double-dealing this way?
How does the town of Amityville now handle all of this?
I mean, since... Well, they're not going to shut Holzer up, and Holzer says, without a doubt, you know, what happened there with Ethel Johnson Myers when she went in trance was there's an Indian chief and he's quite angry and he's not going to go away until some things are restored back the way he thinks they should be.
Now, I don't know about that.
I wasn't there.
I didn't own the house at the time.
Weber made arrangements to go in with the bank, because we'd given it back to the bank by then.
The Historical Society has basically covered it up, from what I can determine, from what anyone else can determine since then.
In your opinion.
But now, the town of Amityville, I mean, they must have a Chamber of Commerce there in Amityville.
Well, we've never been their favorite people, that's for sure.
No, huh?
Alright, Wild Card Line, you're on the air with George Lux.
Hello.
Hi.
Hi.
Lee, you're obviously right about giving art the respect it needs to.
I'm honored you took my call.
I just want to say, Lee, this whole experience is obviously very personal to you, but as I heard and I listened very intently to the art school interview with you, I was kind of shocked when you got to the part that you said you and Kathy weren't together anymore, and I was wondering if you can say when you divorced, and why, if it had anything to do with this, or her turning into an old woman.
Her turning into an old woman didn't have anything to do with it.
Yeah, but did the half-life of what happened, and still maybe in some way present, did that Do you think that had anything to do with it, George?
The reasons we got divorced are really personal.
We went in separate directions with regard to our own personal lives and religion.
Our main interest, and we still talk, is the kids and their lives, and we're both very proud of our kids, all five of them, and we went on and had two more children after we left.
Three of my daughters today are ministers.
Isn't that something?
We couldn't be prouder of them.
And so the reasons we got divorced, they're our own.
They're our own reasons.
They're not something for the public.
But we really just did go in separate ways.
And you don't think there was any residual effect?
I mean, sometimes it's really hard to know.
No, it's not right.
I will say this much.
but you think uh... you you think it had not really nothing to do with
there right no it's not right
i will say this much we disagreed about
exposing the house in that my my own thoughts are in my own belief is that
whatever exposes what went on there whatever gets people to talk about this as a
real problem up
that exist in the world but shoved under the carpet every moment that it possibly
can be in all kinds of ways and all with all kinds of confusion
it should be exposed and I'll see you next time.
As far as Kathy is concerned, her The point is that she only wants to deal with the non-fiction part and does not believe that fiction also helps to do that.
So we differ right there, and that wasn't the reason we got divorced, but when it comes to the house and disagreeing about some things afterwards, then that's part of it.
So there's really no part of all this that has not affected your life, is there?
Yeah, I guess you could say that.
Even through your cold and all that, you've still got a good sense of humor, George.
Listen, we're out of time.
I really don't know how to thank you for coming and giving me this interview toward the end of my time on the air, permanently anyway.
So, George, thank you.
Mark, thank you for having me on, and anyone that's interested in any more that they would like to find out about this, The Lou Gentile Show, lougentile.com, has an archive up for a whole Amityville week that we did earlier this year.
That might help also.
All right, my friend.
Thank you, Art.
I appreciate the interview.
I appreciate how candid you have been, and take care, my friend.
I wish you well, and I'll send you what you asked for.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
Good night.
Good night, George.
Good night, all.
And here's Crystal to take us out from the high desert.
Ta-ta.
Midnight in the desert, shooting stars across the sky.
This magical journey will take us on a ride.
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