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May 28, 2002 - Art Bell

02:34:12

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - James Cox - Antigravity Propulsion Systems. Richard C. Hoagland - Mars Update - Water

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	And then there's some in the middle.
	There's still stuff in the middle I'm really, you know, very cranked up about because it's the stuff in the middle that we specifically predicted that NASA is trying to weasel-word their way out from under.
	Let me read what they say about this image, okay?
	Uh, sure, go ahead.
	Observations by NASA's 2001 Mars Odyssey spacecraft show a global view of Mars in intermediate energy or epithermal neutrons.
	Uh-huh.
	Soil enriched by hydrogen.
	Remember, water is H2O, hydrogen plus oxygen?
	Yes.
	It's indicated by the deep blue colors on the map, which show a low intensity of the neutrons.
	Progressively smaller amounts of hydrogen, and they then presume smaller amounts of water, are shown in colors from light blue to green to yellow to red.
	Got it.
	The deep blue areas in the polar regions are believed to contain up to 50% water ice in the upper one meter, three feet of soil.
	Three feet of soil?
	In the upper three feet of soil.
	The measurements of that satellite look down... Only about three feet.
	Only about three feet.
	Because the neutrons on the gamma rays are only coming out from the surf, so there could be a huge amount of ice below that that they're not seeing.
	Wow.
	And they say this in their own statements.
	Dr. Boynton was very clear that this stuff could get down to a mile or more in the soil.
	Well, why wasn't this a gigantic story, Richard?
	Here?
	Yes, here.
	Because we're busy wondering why Bush was at Normandy as opposed to being at Ground Zero on Memorial Day.
	The news in this country is totally trapped in the politics.
	They can't raise their head to see the disparaging And the bigger things are going to affect humanity, including all Americans, for all of time.
	I mean, this really is big news.
	And, I mean, water enough to flood Mars completely.
	This is not a small story.
	This is like a class A giant story.
	And you're absolutely right.
	I mean, they're on all kinds of other things.
	But this is a big story, Richard.
	The American people really need to understand the magnitude of what's... Well, because of you, 20 million of them are getting it right now.
	Let me continue, because this is where things get cute.
	Oh.
	Light regions in the near equator contain slightly enhanced near-surface hydrogen which is most likely chemically or physically bound because water ice is not stable near the equator.
	In other words, those two big blue areas 180 degrees apart on the equator?
	Yes.
	They're claiming it's some kind of weird chemistry as opposed to water under the soil.
	And the reason they're claiming that is because if you look at the long-term models of Mars, you know, millions and billions of years?
	Yes.
	If water was at the equator, even under current temperatures, at Mars' current distance from the sun, it would all have evaporated.
	So they're looking at this map and they're looking at their model.
	Which is not the title model of Hoagland and Barra.
	Can I ask you a question, Richard?
	Yeah?
	There are then, what I'll call in this photograph, the continents.
	Yeah?
	Those areas without a lot of water, or in some cases, it's red.
	And I wonder if that would equate to a desert.
	Yes.
	The red would equate to a desert?
	Yep, yep, yep.
	That's really interesting.
	Very, very low concentration of hydrogen.
	Remember, we're presuming, they're presuming the hydrogen is linked to water.
	Except, when they get to the equator, there's this huge splotch in the middle of the map.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	And then, on each edge, the way this map runs, the 180 degree parts are at each edge.
	Yes.
	There's other two splotches.
	That's what our model predicted, that the original oceans were concentrated in two oceans, 180 degrees apart, in what's called a tidal situation with the planet that Mars used to orbit.
	When that lock was broken, when that planet was destroyed, exploded or collided with something in the Van Franderen or the Hoagland model, the waters would have rushed from those elevated portions, because the gravity would have reverted to Mars only, they would have rushed down to the lower regions of the planet.
	Well, there it is.
	And since NASA can't explain recent water, recent being, you know, a few million years, At the equator, because even in that amount of time, it would evaporate.
	They're claiming that that blue stuff that says hydrogen has got to be some other hydrogen compound.
	Which, of course, is arm-waving.
	It's weasel wording.
	The most prevalent hydrogen compound in the universe is water.
	The simplest model here, guys, is water.
	And they're trying to get away from it, because if they admit that that's water, It means their view of Mars history is, pardon the pun, all wet.
	There's enough water there that Mars would be not a water world, but it would be a world not all that far from ours, would it?
	That's right.
	Now, if you begin to look at our model in detail, We claim that Mars came into this situation roughly half a billion years ago.
	It was caught and trapped in this orbit around the other planet.
	Are there any other... You know, I understand and respect the exploding planet theory, but, you know, it is...
	It's still just a theory.
	Is there any other... Well, wait, Richard, wait.
	It's not a theory.
	Let me tell you why it's not a theory.
	Well, Richard, unless we have absolute evidence... It's a theory on its way to confirmation.
	Okay.
	Let me ask, Richard.
	Let me ask, Richard.
	Hold it, hold it.
	Is there any other explanation for what happened to Mars that would make any sense at all?
	Well, the short answer is no.
	Let me tell you why.
	Okay.
	The conventional model says you have nine planets, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	That they accreted, more or less, from this lenticular, lens-shaped, pie-plate-shaped cloud.
	Right.
	Gravitationally collected, so you have these little nine balls of spinning stuff called planets orbiting a star called the Sun.
	Right.
	Mars, in this model, is always where it is.
	Always alone.
	And the Sun, in the beginning, was 30% dimmer.
	Dimmer than it is now.
	Now Mars now at that distance most of the time is frozen, right?
	Right.
	How could you have liquid water on a planet at the same distance with a sun that's 30% dimmer?
	Richard, in the article, the BBC article I read, They suggested that there's so much water there that under the Earth, at some point, it might even be in a liquid state.
	Then they go on to speculate that that could equal some form of life.
	Yes?
	Yeah, they're claiming as you go down toward the center of the planet, you know, as you go down in person, you know, major mines on Earth.
	Yes. I think the temperature rises about a degree every thousand feet or something.
	So by the time you get down to a mile or so, for the deepest gold or diamond mines,
	the temperature is in the 110, 120 degrees.
	So they're assuming that if you have geothermal, which would be area thermal,
	using the right Mars nomenclature, energy sources under the Mars underground.
	Yes.
	You would obviously get warmer and warmer soil as you go closer and closer to the core.
	And at some modest depth, you know, a mile or two, you may have enough temperature, uh, geothermal heat coming up to melt the ice.
	So it would be liquid water.
	And they're, they're basically speculating that there would be, there, there might be microbes in those underground pools.
	But that's, again, arm-waving.
	Because you've got to explain the distribution of water under the current conditions.
	Right, but again, this is looking back to how it all happened.
	In their model.
	Yeah, in their model.
	If you just look ahead to what it means, for example, doesn't this mean, a lot of people will want to know this, that a flight to Mars A manned flight to Mars is now not only possible, but probably inevitable.
	If this water is real, and they say it is now, so isn't it inevitable we're going to go to Mars?
	It's inevitable, and it's a hundred times cheaper tonight than it was last night.
	A hundred times cheaper?
	Yep.
	Because you've got filling stations.
	As you said at the opening of the show, you melt this ice, alright?
	You break it down into hydrogen and oxygen using either nuclear power or solar power.
	You basically store it in separate tanks, liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen.
	You then put them into a shuttle-like vehicle.
	And you can come home!
	Because you have refilled your tanks when you get there.
	This has dramatically, incredibly undercut the cost of going to Mars, because as you know, chemical rockets, you know, normally have to carry fuel to go both ways.
	If you can refuel at the other end, Plus, of course, you've got oxygen to breathe.
	You don't have to take the oxygen for the crew to breathe, because you can live off the land, as Bob Zubrin... What is the gravity of Mars compared to Earth?
	About a third of ours.
	About a third?
	About a third.
	Very livable.
	Oh, look.
	You know, the technology makes you the 800-pound gorilla.
	You know the old joke?
	Where does an 800-pound gorilla like to sleep?
	Anywhere it wants.
	Anywhere it wants.
	Well, with technology, the human race can live anywhere it wants to.
	Provided you've got something to live off of.
	We now know that on Mars, we have exactly the right stuff to live off the land.
	And it has completely changed.
	I can't emphasize this enough.
	It has completely changed the equation, both scientifically, economically, and therefore politically, of sending men and women to Mars to find out what the hell is really there.
	Then why wasn't this, I mean, why wasn't this jumped on by NASA?
	I understand they released the information, but you can release information and then you can say, oh my God, this is incredible, look what we found, and they haven't exactly done it that way.
	It's been really overplayed.
	Because they don't have their marching orders from the Bush White House yet.
	No, our sources.
	Of course, our sources, huh, to whatever the fart.
	Remember you used to be that kind of person?
	Then you got wise and got into the important stuff for human beings?
	The show is built around the important stuff.
	Hey, you're absolutely... Richard, hold on, where's the bottom of the hour?
	Yeah, well, he's right about that.
	So the only reason they didn't jump up and down real hard is because of politics.
	They don't have any orders from Washington yet.
	Should we make this a big story?
	What should we say about it?
	Please tell us what to do.
	Oh, I miss the old NASA.
	I'm Art Bell.
	And Harry doesn't mind if he doesn't make the scene.
	He's got a date lined up, he's doing alright.
	He can play the honky-tonk like anything.
	Saving it up, Friday night With the Sultan's
	With the Sultan's on swing Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye
	From Western the Rockies at 1-800-6-3 1-800-825-5033. First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
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	international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	It sure is.
	The headline, BBC headline is, Mars ice could flood planet.
	And I sent that off to Keith.
	And there have been other articles, but I mean, it's totally being underplayed.
	This is awesome.
	Take a look at the photograph.
	Go to my website, rbel.com, then go to tonight's guest info and look at the first image.
	And it's water world.
	That's the actual satellite imagery, the blue representing probable water.
	To greater and lesser degrees.
	The bottom, I don't know, bottom fifth of the entire planet of Mars is nothing but.
	I mean, there's water everywhere.
	This is a gigantic story.
	You don't have to wait for the politics to get excited, if you would like.
	I certainly am not.
	I find this incredibly exciting, and I don't need to wait for NASA to get their marching orders.
	I just think it's really exciting.
	Well, let me tell you why NASA's being very coy with this one.
	Okay.
	You know, we have our Bush sources that we've talked about on the show before.
	I was explicitly told, even before the first Odyssey press conference, where they released a rather incredible image that we're going to get to in a couple of minutes, that George Bush Jr.
	was going to make an announcement this summer.
	Regarding a man, Mars Mission.
	I remember, yes.
	And that the White House did not want to see a Lyndon.
	You know what that means?
	No.
	Lyndon Johnson, when he was president, if there were leaks in the Washington Post or whatever about what he was going to announce, he wouldn't pull it.
	He wouldn't do it.
	So they are flatly, I think, all those people all around town, except of course for the Brits, who in their story, the BBC story, they talk about this is now spurring Discussion of a manned Mars mission?
	Of course.
	They could care less what George Dozier does not want, but the guys at NASA so want a manned Mars mission that they're downplaying this so that nobody like us will sit on the radio and speculate about this as the next announcement.
	Well, they knew we would.
	I would hope they would, by now.
	Let me review one thing.
	I had a communique during the break from somebody who wanted me to explain why Mars pre-catastrophe was such a wonderful, benign place.
	And what happened to it?
	In a standard model, remember, the one that NASA's claiming is real, you have Mars as a dust bowl, you have this water on it in an icy form, and you have a sun which is 30% dimmer, so it's never, ever, ever been water.
	I mean, if it's frozen now, you can imagine if you were to dim the sun by 30%, hell, the oceans here would freeze, right?
	Richard, of course they would.
	Richard, we know... So how do we get a warm Mars with a fluffy atmosphere and rain and liquid water which all the evidence from Malin's camera has been showing us?
	Richard, two months ago there was this big story saying Mars was melting.
	Yes.
	How can it melt even now?
	Well, if it does now, there are some pretty serious implications.
	I was going to say, beachfront property will become a premium.
	Well, exactly.
	Exactly.
	So, I mean, was that story accurate?
	No, the story's very accurate.
	If Mars is warming, then why is it warming?
	If it's the sun that's increasing in energy or whatever?
	No.
	Okay, then it's the internal planetary mechanics.
	It's the hyperdimensional physics of Mars.
	Okay.
	You know, it was really nice of you to tell everybody how right I was on this.
	Yeah.
	And the reason is not because I have a big ego, which I... I know you do.
	...deny that I do, but, you know... But you were right.
	I have no problem.
	When someone's dead right, they're right.
	The crucial in science are to, when you're right, to be acknowledged that you're right.
	Because the only way you get to keep doing things in science is to write.
	If you're wrong too many times, nobody will ever listen to you, and they won't read your papers, and they won't take you seriously, and they won't look at the stuff that you're pointing at.
	Now, it's obvious that the honest guys in NASA are looking at this image, showing the concentration of blue at the equator, in those two regions 180 degrees apart, and in their wildest imagining, they can't imagine how you could have water for billions of years at the equator of Mars, so they're claiming, oh, the hydrogen has to be locked up in something else.
	But that undercuts the simple, you know, Occam's Razor model.
	You're the most reasonable explanation.
	In this water.
	There it is.
	So if it hasn't been there billions of years, and it means boys and girls in NASA, that it wasn't there billions of years ago, it's only been there for a few million years since Mars went through this incredible catastrophe that Tom and I and others have been talking about.
	Some of the things this could mean, Richard, would be, for example, You know, if we're talking about billions and billions of years, to use a Saganism, then there could have been intelligent life on Mars.
	Well, of course!
	That intelligent life perhaps saw a catastrophic event coming, and if it had evolved far enough, it would have come to Earth.
	It would have known to get the hell out of Dodge.
	Well, the next Dodge would be us.
	Of course!
	Let me go to the... I'm glad you segwayed here.
	Let's go to the next picture, alright?
	Alright.
	Go quick on the link that says related image and what do we call it?
	Odyssey IR close-up.
	Ah, yes.
	Okay.
	I'm there.
	About a month ago, Odyssey guys released their first images from the Odyssey mission.
	Remember, that's named after 2001, a space odyssey.
	This is the photograph we discussed last time you were on the program.
	That's right.
	Okay, so you take a look at this incredible picture.
	And what do you see?
	You see an image which is stunningly weird.
	And if you make it full screen, which of course you can do in some browsers... Uh, yeah, I have it full screen.
	Okay.
	So you've got the close-ups.
	Uh, yeah.
	The arrows.
	Oh, yeah.
	Alright.
	We now know... We put a major piece up on the web tonight.
	Mike and I wrote this over the weekend, and we've been kind of sitting on it to wait for the right time.
	Tonight was the right time because of this NASA announcement.
	This was released of a region of Mars at about two degrees north.
	And 29 degrees west, near the equator, okay?
	And it's a region called a chaos region.
	Mars has several of these.
	There are areas where, on the visible images, it looks like something had just shattered the ground, like it was a drinking glass and it had cracked.
	And you have all these fractures.
	It does look that way, yes.
	Okay, in the infrared... Remember, those are visible images taken by going back to Mariner 4.
	Right, this is infrared.
	In the infrared, of course, the warm stuff is, uh, this is nighttime IR.
	The warm stuff is bright and the dark stuff is cold.
	Right.
	And what we see are a series of basins.
	Yep.
	Attachments with these incredibly regular walls surrounding them.
	NASA calls them maces.
	But they can't explain why the maces, if they're made of rock, have dust on top on a planet where the wind blows 300 miles an hour are.
	I mean, there's no dust on my tables out here where the wind blows at just 40 miles an hour.
	And these incredibly intricate geometric walls look, in fact, like walls.
	Well, we put together a model which basically says that this region, at the catastrophe, when Mars, you know, had it, when the planet it orbited blew up, the fragments all hit Mars, the oceans sloshed, the tides roared, the waters, you know, incredible floods, biblical-type floods, with trillions of tons of mud and sediments of detritus, Flooded all the low-lying areas, and flooded this region, and these were ancient ecologies.
	Huge, enclosed, city-like environments that would be basically compared to L.A.
	If you flooded L.A.
	That is what it looks like.
	And knocked out all the skyscrapers.
	The foundations would all accumulate to sediments.
	And the L.A.
	basin for a while would be a flat, mud sea, all the way up to the San Gabriel Mountains, right?
	Right.
	Then as the erosion progressed, as you had wind and waves and rain and, you know, normal Earth's atmosphere, you would get erosion.
	And eventually those foundations would peak up above the surface because the waters would be flowing out to sea carrying the sediment.
	And you believe that's what we're seeing here?
	That's, we think, what we're seeing, which of course makes so achingly appropriate the announcement tonight that Mars was a huge amount of water, a water planet as you just called it, because without all that water this scenario would not work.
	Now this scenario is the only one that makes sense.
	When Roger Gibbs, who is the Odyssey Project Manager, gave his recent two-night lectures at JPL and Pasadena City College a couple weeks ago in L.A., in Pasadena, he showed this photograph and he admitted in front of both audiences that they haven't a clue as to what this really means.
	He couldn't understand why the dust is on top, while the spaces between these so-called mesas are clear of dust where you'd expect it to accumulate.
	But if, in fact, these are the foundations of incredible, massive architecture, and you get erosion by wind of the drying mud over millennia, this makes perfect, perfect, perfect sense.
	He also admitted, though, we've got a story on the web, you know, where we're comparing this image with the Cydonia images, because I think that we're looking at two versions of the same structure.
	The ones in Cydonia didn't suffer the tremendous wave and wind and water action of the catastrophe, because it's now obvious that they were built after the Great Floods.
	This image that you're looking at is before, Cydonia is after.
	And if it's after, it was abandoned because of other factors, and it has been whittled away by wind erosion, by sand, by dust storms, not by massive amounts of water.
	So what NASA has done tonight is given us the keys to ferreting out the intricate history of Mars and Earth and how they are intertwined because I firmly believe that when this, you know, you-know-what fan, that the refugees had to come here and basically we're them.
	We are the Martians.
	I think almost any reasonable person has got to admit that's a possibility.
	Again, we're going to bump into the old familiar here.
	Of course, Richard, and that's, you know, creation and, no, God did it this way.
	But, you know, just looking at the bare facts, if there's that much water on Mars, and that water was above the planet at some point, then it's likely there was life.
	It's really likely there was life.
	It's almost impossible not to imagine there's life.
	Every place on this planet where we have water, We have life.
	We have found life in the water in nuclear reactors.
	Simmering, bluish, Kerenkov radiation-filled nuclear reactors have microbes that love it because there's water there.
	We have microbes that live in Yellowstone Hot Springs at temperatures approaching the boiling point of water.
	I know we have larger organisms that live, you know, five miles down in the deepest... Where they actually thought life would be totally, absolutely, as the scientist said, completely impossible.
	They've got these smokers down there, and by God, they've got life all around them.
	And big life, rich life, complex life, not just microbes.
	It is true.
	It is true.
	So if you have a planet awash in water, and if you have a history, which our title model firmly says now you had, where that water was once liquid, Where there were blue skies and fluffy clouds and rainbows and all the things we enjoy here until, you know, the terrible thing happened.
	Then it's almost impossible, given that there was roughly the same amount of time for life to evolve there as there was for life to evolve here.
	Richard, a dumb question.
	For there not to have been life.
	If there is rich microbial life under the surface of Mars now.
	Yes.
	Which is... That's a minimum.
	It's probable.
	That's a minimum.
	How dangerous, Richard, how dangerous might that be for Mars travelers?
	In other words, there's microbial stuff that we as human beings, at least in billions of years, depending on which model you want to look at, have never encountered.
	How dangerous might that be and how many precautions would have to be taken if man goes to Mars?
	Yeah, but remember, that's not our model.
	Our model is that we evolve... I'm just saying if the microbial life is there, at the very least, Richard, even by the model you're talking about, we would not have encountered these microbes in billions of years.
	But wait a minute, if it's totally separate, then it won't even match our DNA and it can't eat us because it wouldn't recognize us.
	So if it's truly been totally isolated, there's no problem.
	However, if we are If we are related, if we came from a Martian ecosphere or biosphere... I mean, they're worried about digging up flu virus from 1918 or whatever, right?
	Right.
	Which we know killed people.
	We do, indeed.
	Yeah.
	Well, obviously, you would want to take extreme precautions.
	Well, I meant, for those people, yeah, if you've got a long trip to get to Mars, you're going to then live on Mars for a while, exist on Mars.
	And that's what I'm wondering, whether People, for example, would worry that our men would land, and within some period of time, pretty short time, they'd come down with something and die.
	Well, you would initially, of course, send unmanned robots.
	This is why JPL is going to make a fortune in prepping to get ready for a manned Mars mission.
	Right.
	Because you will send every conceivable lab and every technique.
	You'll bring organisms back to study in the space station in total isolation.
	We do have the ability to quarantine something, absolutely.
	We don't need to bring the soil samples to the Earth.
	We can keep them up in space and completely separate.
	But that would certainly be a concern, then, for any Mars traveler, so... Yeah, of course.
	But it's part of the equation.
	We've always known this.
	This was in the cards.
	This is not something that just was thought of two days ago.
	We've known that if Mars was ever rich in life, that we had to be concerned with this.
	Sure.
	But there are modern ways to prevent You know, class 4 containment from being breached, even on this planet.
	We have incredibly dangerous things stored in bioweapons labs and, you know, with the Center for Disease Control and all that.
	And there's this huge Russian facility, which I presume you've been seeing on television, where they produce hundreds of thousands of tons of the most deadly toxins imaginable.
	Sure.
	And that's right in this biosphere.
	And we don't get kind of bent out of shape because we assume That they knew what they were doing and they didn't want to kill themselves.
	Well, with exploring Mars, we have an even incredible, greater benefit.
	We have space.
	We have 35 million miles between us.
	We have a space station hundreds of miles upstairs.
	We could build another one.
	You know, to produce quarantine facilities that would be absolutely, you know, foolproof.
	Okay.
	With multiple layers.
	Alright, so it would be, but it would be a pretty big concern.
	Obvious that we must be concerned.
	But that's the, that's the, um, the glass half empty.
	The last half full is, if what we're looking at is real, and there's no doubt now that it is, Mars has got to have been flourishing with life.
	Yes.
	And maybe still.
	Is this what Arthur, my dear friend Arthur, plugged into the inner inner sanctum, is this what he's been trying to tell us for over a year?
	It would appear so.
	That the bushes on Mars are real bushes with tap roots that go down to where there's ice and liquid?
	The question is, will the bushes here let us go?
	And Wilbur Bush is here.
	Very good, Art.
	You're in top form tonight.
	Well, that's the big question.
	I mean, do you think that's what's coming?
	Assuming that his thunder isn't stolen, which is what you seem to be suggesting, that he will announce a manned mission to Mars in the summer?
	We have been told.
	And all we can do is to watch the clock and see if it all works.
	Tonight, we now know it can be incredibly cheaper than it was I sure hope that announcement is made.
	For a long time, Richard, I've thought that people here on planet Earth with all of its troubles right now in India and Pakistan ready to throw nukes around at each other and all the mess that's going on out there.
	We need something larger to think about, concentrate on, hope for, and believe in, and such a thing would be a great thing for not just the United States right now, but for all of humanity, you know, to go to another planet.
	Now we have reason to go.
	You know, I was watching Chris Matthews tonight, just before you came on, and he's in Israel, interviewing Israelis and Palestinians, you know, a man on the street.
	Right.
	He talked to some Palestinian kids, and it is so incredibly depressing, because their highest vision is to grow up to be terrorists, to kill Israelis.
	We have got to give the kids of this planet something bigger, something more profoundly human to do with their futures than to kill each other and to hate each other.
	And the unifying glue of looking at ourselves against the context of life in another part of the solar system that may or may not be related, that may or may not have had a history incredibly splendiferous compared to ours, from which we can learn Right next door, where we can go back for pennies compared to what it costs to kill people day in and day out and build weapons and bombs of destruction.
	That is a vision worth everybody having.
	I wonder if that vision can be inculcated to people like the people you just described.
	I wonder if that's even possible.
	It's sure worth a try, of course, but... Well, remember, we're doing a movie.
	And we're going to do our damn level best to make sure that vision is embodied in this film.
	Because without vision, as you know, Lincoln said, the people perish.
	And there's an awful lot of people on this planet tonight are perishing because of lack of vision.
	No question about it.
	So it's, you know, again, it's a really exciting night.
	And I really want to congratulate you, Richard.
	I mean, you're dead flat.
	Hit it on the head, and I don't think anybody in this audience who's a regular listener at all to this show could even possibly argue with that.
	You hit it.
	I could not have done it without people like Efren Palermo and Jill England, who did the map work of the distribution of the sea fishes, and Mike Barra.
	You mean the images that NASA referred to as trips of light and shadow?
	Dust avalanches is what they called them.
	Yeah, dust avalanches, yeah.
	So there's a lot of people that deserve credit because they're on top of it and we're not going to quit.
	We're going to continue to press the issue and, you know, we've been given a tremendous boost tonight because NASA has admitted that Mars was once a water planet like the Earth.
	Yeah, that's a big boost, all right, Richard.
	I mean, that's just monstrous news.
	If anybody wants the history of this going back 20, 30 years from when I got into it, you know, I've got a book out.
	The 2001 edition of the Monuments of Mars.
	Mm-hmm, very quickly.
	And we've got a tape set.
	If you buy the tape set from this 800 number, they throw in the book for free.
	Almost 1,000 pages of what we used to know.
	The number is 1-800-350-4639.
	1-800-350-4639 One more time, the number...
	1-800-350-4639 For what they didn't want you to know about Mars,
	except tonight, the door is open just a crack.
	Good night, my friend.
	Good night, Art.
	It sure is.
	I'm going to be late.
	Call me in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Hold on.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	To reach Ark Valley in the Kingdom of Nigh, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-8-1.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222, or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator, and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
	Good morning.
	Get ready to do a complete mind flip here.
	We're going to shift gears.
	Incredible fantastic as the news about Mars is.
	We're now going to put that in one category of excitement and move on to another.
	Now, I don't know what's about to happen.
	What I'm going to tell you is this.
	I'm about to bring on a man, James Cox, who is going to tell us about something that he is either building or has built or is about to build.
	It's the backpack personal lifter that he's currently perfecting.
	The Backpack Personal Lifter.
	Now, what this man, James Cox, is about to talk to us about, basically, boiled down, I think, is anti-gravity.
	In other words, we're talking, if James is correct, I think, about a thing that you could put on your back, and it would defy gravity for you, for lack of a better phrase.
	And I'm sure we'll understand exactly what it's trying, or theoretically doing, before the night is over, but it would, it would be a personal lifter.
	In other words, you could, I guess, go floating around in the air, around the planet, you could fly.
	You could fly, if what he says is true.
	I think.
	Well, if I ask about all of this, James Cox, ...is a 57-year-old Vietnam vet.
	He received his Bachelor of Science degree in physics from Californian Polytech in 1973.
	Cox was a member of the technical staff of the TRW Space and Defense Group in Redondo Beach, California, where he specialized in ion space propulsion testing and magnetohydrodynamic power generation in rockets.
	He later held the position of Systems Engineer for General Dynamics, where he worked on Aegis, uh, a weapons system upgrade, Star Wars electromagnetic gun development for Eglin Air Force Base Weapons and Development Center.
	Aye yai yai!
	James is the inventor of the dipolar force field propulsion system for a high-altitude electrodynamic aircraft propulsion.
	In 1972, he published the Space Drive Handbook, reviewing the technology status of anti-gravity, teleportation, inertia propulsion, force field propulsion, free energy and UFOs as spacecraft.
	James retired in 1999 to work full-time on anti-gravity, and Inertia Propulsion and to publish a newsletter on anti-gravity and space drive research.
	He filed a patent in 2001 on the Gravito Inertial Lift System.
	Listen to this now.
	A device that lifts payloads vertically without the use of rockets, Jets or propellers?
	One application is the backpack personal lifter that he is currently perfecting.
	We will talk with James, James Cox, in just a moment.
	All right, Mr. Cox, I think, is a pretty unusual man.
	He certainly has an incredible background.
	James, welcome to the program.
	It's great to be talking to you.
	Great to have you.
	Your background, boy, you've done a lot, haven't you?
	Yes, I was pretty much in the defense industry for 20 years working on propulsion.
	And ever since I was a kid when Sputnik went up in 1957, I got interested in rockets, and that pretty well launched me into an engineering career.
	Uh-huh, and you are presently 57 years old, is that right?
	I just turned 58 a couple weeks ago.
	Just turned 58.
	So you're taking an early retirement, basically, to go to work for yourself.
	Yeah, it's not much of a retirement, but it's really fun, actually.
	So you might say I'm partially retired.
	Partially retired.
	Before I get retired, Well, hopefully you're nowhere near that.
	I'm doing pretty good.
	You're good.
	You're making some incredible claims here, James, that we might be able to have.
	What is gravity, James?
	Let's begin there.
	What the hell is gravity?
	Gravity is what holds everything down, right?
	And do you agree or disagree with conventional thought that gravity is a product of mass?
	Absolutely, yes.
	That is, of course, Newton's Law of Gravitation.
	All right.
	All right.
	Well, I just wanted to see.
	So you agree, then, that the mass is where the gravity comes from.
	That's why when we drop something, boom, it hits the floor.
	So you don't argue with that at all?
	The conventional thoughts about gravity are real?
	Well, the problem that Newton had with gravitation was the idea of action at a distance.
	The idea that there's something invisible there reaching out and grabbing onto the mass and pulling it back to the Earth seems to go against common sense.
	Because that, whatever that is that's pulling mass down, doesn't seem to have manifested itself in any physical way.
	And so therefore, I'm more inclined to follow the ideas of a push gravity.
	A push gravity?
	Yes, push gravity, which is consistent with Tom Van Flandern.
	That's quite true.
	What he thinks.
	He's got a wonderful book.
	Uh, called Dark Matter, and in there he has a, uh, section on Push Gravity, using a particle, postulating the existence of a particle called the Graviton-C.
	And, uh, this is really how, uh, physics is.
	Physics is based upon collisions, or what I call Billiard Ball Physics.
	So these particles are raining down upon us from space, and pushing us, uh, against the surface of the Earth by collisions, With the nuclei or atoms in our body.
	Well then, shouldn't it be measured, if that's true, somewhat inconsistently?
	In other words, we can do extremely precise measurements anywhere on the planet, and they always turn out the same, don't they?
	Actually, no.
	If it were as you say, and we were being pushed, you would expect it to be somewhat non-consistent.
	Actually, that is true.
	According to geophysical data, there are maps of the gravitational field of the Earth.
	And I tell you, it looks like a rotten apple.
	It's really got a lot of bumps all over the place.
	Presumably due to variations in the density of the Earth.
	Okay.
	You are actually working on some sort of, it would be fair to call it, Anti-gravity?
	Are you working on anti-gravity, or what?
	What would you call it?
	Actually, Richard invented the term earlier this year.
	You had Richard and Gene Mallop on one night, and they mentioned the so-called Dean Drive, and Richard referred to it as quasi-anti-gravity.
	This is a fantastic word, quasi-anti-gravity.
	In other words, it's not true control of gravity, but it Well, people in the audience need to understand, through whatever physics method you're going to explain to us, it can do it.
	The end result is what we would think of as anti-gravity.
	In other words, you are able to repulse or pull or change something so that the present effects of gravity, as we understand them on Earth, don't have control any longer.
	Is that correct?
	In a particular case that I'm studying for application as a backpack, that's not exactly correct.
	It does not alter the gravitational field at all.
	Well, how does it support you in mid-air?
	How could it theoretically support mid-air?
	Basically, it uses centrifugal force.
	A centrifugal force occurs when you take a ball on the end of a string and rotate it.
	Right.
	There's a tension in the string, which is an outward force acting from the center of rotation through the mass of the body that's rotating.
	Correct.
	And it's exactly that force that I'm harnessing to produce lift.
	Ummm...
	That is a force.
	You're quite correct.
	If you take something heavy and swing it around on a string, there is centrifugal force.
	How are you able to harness that?
	What I do is I build something called a mechanical oscillator, which is just a practical device that implements what I just described.
	It consists of two counter-rotating, unbalanced masses.
	That produces a reciprocation or oscillation back and forth.
	How big is this, physically?
	The one that I'm using for my backpack testing is molded lead masses, about one and a half pounds each.
	They have a 90 degree pie shape, arc pie shape, about 90 degrees of width and a radius of about three inches.
	And you turn these with some force, don't you?
	Right.
	I have an electric motor and in my case I'm using a skillsaw motor, two and a half horsepower.
	A skillsaw motor?
	Yes.
	Really?
	To rotate these lead weights and produce apparently quite a bit of centrifugal force, yes?
	speed. If you double the RPM, the force increases as the square, or in other words, four times
	the amount.
	All right. How far out, just so my mind can try and grasp this, are these lead weights
	swinging?
	The radius is about three inches.
	Only about three inches?
	That's right.
	Oh, wow. But the rotational speed is quite quick, I take it.
	In order to lift a man off the ground, a 200 pound man, they have to spin roughly at about 3,000 RPM.
	And this has been the problem in my research currently that I'm trying to overcome, is to get that speed up to that level.
	And right now I can only run at about 600 RPM.
	And at 600 RPM, what Do you notice what begins to change at 600 RPM?
	Well, the motor starts to smoke and the circuit breaker turns.
	Other than that, what, let's see, how can I rephrase this, what anomalous activity do you begin to see?
	What I have done is taken my machine and bolted it to four concrete blocks.
	These are the eight By 8 by 16 inch concrete blocks, which weigh 30 pounds each.
	Right.
	This is called the dummy load, since I haven't found any person that's willing to be the dummy load.
	So we're talking about something that weighs 150 pounds total.
	I put it on a bathroom scale.
	Approximating a small human, yeah?
	Right.
	And you put it on a small scale?
	A bath scale, just a regular bath scale.
	Right.
	And the weight went down 70 pounds.
	Wow!
	Wow!
	And you're telling me that at 3,000 RPM, there would be inequality or even a deficit going, a surplus going the other way, that would allow lifting from ground.
	Is that correct?
	Wow!
	Can you tell me A little bit about what you think at 3,000 RPM the rough effects would be.
	I mean, would you go straight up?
	Would you begin floating?
	In what way would you... I understand that you could come off the ground.
	How fast?
	Would you go up extremely high if you wanted to?
	Would it make any difference?
	Could you move forward?
	How could you navigate?
	How do you imagine you might navigate?
	Basically, in a practical application, the thing is pulsating in force.
	The thrust is not continuous.
	The thrust actually only lasts for about 60 degrees of rotation.
	Okay.
	And actually, I have two rotors that are opposed to one another.
	Each one produces 60 degrees.
	Also, the combined duration of thrust is 120 degrees, or about one-third of a cycle.
	That's still being 360 degrees.
	That's still pretty good.
	It's a pulsating force, but the magnitude of the force is about 400 pounds.
	All right.
	Again, translate it to me in a way that you think it could have a practical application.
	Would you slowly rise from the ground?
	Would you jump up and then just sort of keep on going?
	Would you go up like a rocket ship?
	What?
	It would be very slow because you have throttle control.
	You have very Uh, close control, tight control over the RPM, therefore you have, uh, precision control of the lifting forces.
	So once you've got the hang of it- That would be in the vertical.
	You have to practice, you know.
	Okay, I understand.
	No, but that would be in the vertical.
	You're telling me- You can hover and, uh, and have smooth control.
	Going up and down.
	And basically, since it's mounted on your back, by using your body motion, you can tip your body forward or backwards for vectoring horizontally.
	So, in other words, You're flying, really.
	If you're in atmosphere, you're flying.
	Exactly correct.
	You're up in the air, you're hovering, and just by controlling the RPM, you can rise as fast as you want.
	Okay.
	Hipping forward or backward or right to the left.
	What kind of force or speed would you imagine one could achieve In a full tilt situation, I'll put it that way.
	Yeah, I mean, you go up 200 feet... I think the big issue is safety, and, uh... Well, sure.
	I would say 60 miles per hour would probably be, uh... The maximum safe speed?
	safety considerations.
	Oh, well, I'm glad I'm glad that it's not 55 James.
	They don't have trouble ticketing me because they would be on the
	ground.
	So speedy could you could probably get away with speedy.
	Well, a person almost has to believe if what you're telling us is true.
	I mean, you said you reduced a hundred and fifty pound weight
	by 60 pounds, almost 50% almost half.
	That's right.
	That's that's really really really serious.
	That means you're on the right track and that the rest of your
	theory could absolutely be true.
	What has kept you from getting a better engine that wouldn't go up in smoke, kicking the breaker, as you put it earlier?
	Why not go out and really get something that's going to crank for you?
	Well, right now, being retired on a pension, I don't have the funds to get the engine I need.
	They're about $1,600.
	These engines are used in the ultralight aircraft.
	They're typically...
	Around 15 horsepower.
	There's one company called the Hurst, Hurst Engine.
	It weighs 28 pounds and puts out 15 horsepower.
	That would be a perfect... And that's what you need?
	And that's all that's holding you up from going to a full-scale model?
	Well, the other problem is I live in an apartment where there's some senior citizens and I'm already having a problem with them complaining about my noise.
	When I run my device, it kind of shakes the whole building.
	It shakes the whole building?
	I hope I don't get elected.
	I hope you don't.
	James, where are you?
	I'm not too far from the nugget in Sparks, Nevada.
	In Sparks, Nevada?
	They think it's an underground nuclear explosion going off.
	They probably think you're a mad scientist then.
	Oh, no doubt.
	I try to keep a low profile.
	James, hold on.
	Good morning everybody, James Cox is here.
	you And oh my, what he's claiming with his background.
	I don't know.
	What do you think?
	You never know.
	This is the kind of person for whom it might all come.
	I'm Art Bell.
	to come of me. Why I looked around for my possibility.
	The sand or the strength of an oak grooves deep in the ground. The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to
	burst up through tarmac to the sun again. Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
	To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing. To have all these things in our memories. Or from the user to come of
	us to come of me.
	Fly, fly like a sea soul. Take this place on this ship just for me.
	Call Archibald in the Kingdom of Nigh from Worcester, Milwaukee, Zambia.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	You know, James is just the kind of guy who actually might come up with what he says he's got.
	In this world, you just never know.
	God knows he's got a hell of a background.
	No.
	I'm telling you to go to my website, rfl.com, alright?
	When you get to my website, go to, uh, let me see, program, tonight's guest info, and you'll see, uh, the name James Cox, under Richard C. Oakland.
	There are two things that you've gotta see, actually several.
	Uh, number one, he's got a diagram of his device up there, so, A complete diagram of exactly how this thing looks and works, the internals of it, and then he's got another picture of the backpack itself.
	This is really incredible.
	I mean, I guess I can understand James' neighbors feeling perhaps the way they do.
	Some older folks there going, This James over here is gonna kill us all!
	Or maybe he'll fly.
	I don't know.
	But he's really serious, and... This is my dream.
	I have always, in all my life, I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always dreamed of flying like a bird.
	And this is exactly what it really offers.
	I mean, you really could fly like a bird.
	One can imagine, uh, as unsafe as some people worry the skies are right now, with everybody zipping around at 60 miles an hour or so, and you know they're gonna go faster than that.
	What kind of world it would be like out there.
	Uh, the human collisions occurring at, say, 10,000 feet.
	That'd be about right.
	You don't need oxygen there.
	10,000 feet going about 60 miles an hour.
	Anyway, we'll get back to James in a moment.
	Crazy Regis.
	you Or both?
	I don't know.
	You've got to get a picture of this backpack on your screen.
	This backpack is incredible.
	I'm looking at the picture of the backpack right now, James.
	By the way, what do you think?
	Do you think your neighbors think you're crazy or a genius or probably both?
	Well, probably crazy.
	Crazy.
	It's a very technical subject and the complexity is very hard.
	I've been working on it for 40 years.
	It takes a long time to get to the point where you've got functioning apparatus that you can start to do measurements on.
	Sure.
	Well, you've done that and you've proven some important part already.
	I want to go through this, not the diagram, we'll get to that, but the backpack itself for a second.
	You've got on top, it says GILS.
	Now, the GILS stands for what?
	That's the actual system itself.
	That's the acronym for it, yes.
	Okay.
	And then I see you've got mounted on the man's arm there, oil.
	Like a can of oil.
	Right.
	Basically, I've got two chainsaw engines.
	One on top and one on the bottom.
	This is just one approach.
	That's alright.
	This approach is powered by two chainsaw engines.
	One on top, one on the bottom.
	And they would need oil.
	Right.
	And then down below that I see you've got a A diehard battery.
	Probably the wrong name for the battery.
	Well, they're good batteries.
	Diehard's a good battery, right?
	And you definitely... Let's see, if your battery pooped out on you in flight, the engines would continue to run, right?
	Right, because they'd probably have a magneto inside them to keep them going.
	The battery's just to get it started.
	So, you don't have to worry about the diehard pooping out.
	Really?
	I mean, you'd be on the ground and you just simply wouldn't take off, right?
	Right.
	And then you've even gone so far as to pencil in a little Nevada license plate.
	That's an interesting question, whether I would have to be licensed.
	Uh, to fly through the air, uh... Well, um, I... I had some really interesting audio recently of, um, a man named Larry Walters, who in real life, uh, went up in a lawn chair using balloons, James, and, uh, got up into the air traffic control patterns of LAX.
	It was an amazing story.
	And, of course, uh, he kinda got his wrists slapped.
	He didn't really get in all that much trouble.
	Uh, so you probably do it once.
	Maybe.
	And probably get your wrist slapped.
	But after that, I'm not sure what the legalities would be.
	Have you thought about that?
	Yes, I think it would be very similar to the ultralights.
	If it weighs less than 250 pounds, the FAA considers it to be an experimental aircraft.
	And so therefore, you just gotta... The rules are you can't fly into congested areas.
	You can't fly at night.
	So I think I would have to certainly submit it to the FAA to get some kind of approval or ruling on it.
	I may have to stick a propeller on there somewhere.
	You mean so they can understand?
	Yeah, it's going to blow them away, that's for sure.
	Would you, before seeking a general approval though, probably try it yourself?
	Absolutely, or if I can get you to do it.
	Well, now there's another thing.
	Um, if you look at the early footage of man's attempts to fly, you know, before the Wright Brothers got it right, and even when they did, a lot of people didn't believe them until years later.
	But, um, an awful lot of those people, oh, gee, I saw, you know, there's all kinds of footage, and generally, they killed themselves a lot.
	You know, they crashed and stuff before they ever successfully flew.
	So, obviously, using your device, for the first time is going to bring with it some risk, isn't it?
	Absolutely.
	It would be best to like go and stay with the concrete blocks and have this set up as a remote controlled arrangement like the throttle control.
	You could probably You rig it up so that you could electrically throttle it.
	Well, sure, I know, but I mean, there has to be a first attempt at a manned flight.
	I mean, you're obviously going to stay with the blocks until you get to zero, and then the blocks start lifting off, and then after that, at some point, you've got to try a manned flight.
	Absolutely, yeah.
	So, do you think you would do it, or are you going to go out and look for it?
	Oh, you bet I would do it.
	You bet.
	Even at 58 years?
	I believe in my own workmanship, so I'd be the first to do it.
	Um, how much of a risk, uh, I believe that you would try that, do you think you would be taking?
	Well, the ground testing, uh, you know, uh, in, in the field of engineering rocket propulsion, uh, which is what I'm very familiar with, uh, and Muller is, uh, over there in Dixon, California.
	You're talking about the Muller Skycar, right?
	Yes.
	Although he spent 30 years and, uh, of course he's a professor in mechanical engineering, so.
	I understand.
	I wonder if he actually got it off the ground because I visit his website, you know, maybe once a month to get an update.
	Yeah, well I think that's exactly the stage he's at right now.
	They're doing, they're doing tests and we've been in touch with Miller and we're going to have him back on.
	But I know that he's in the actual test mode right now.
	How far, how far from the actual test mode with your backpack do you think you might be?
	What I would be doing in my static ground tests would be to To really get some hours on the system, uh, maybe a thousand hours without any failure.
	Right.
	Uh, and get the reliability, uh, up there.
	So, so I have extremely high confidence that, uh, the chances of failure is minimal.
	Uh-huh.
	And then I would do a tethered, do tethered, uh, hovering, uh, a couple of feet off the ground.
	Oh, that is a good idea.
	In other words, you would tie yourself to the ground in essence.
	Right.
	Yeah, I'd have a safety cord.
	Okay.
	Because you could get a backfire or something in the engine and maybe you'd get a burst of speed there.
	Alright, you've got two engines.
	If one of those engines would fail, what would happen?
	Yeah, the whole idea is to have the system designed for redundancy so that it could operate on one engine.
	So I try to have some built-in redundancy there.
	It does increase the weight.
	So in other words, one, yeah, but one engine Would be enough to get you and both engines?
	It would give you a slow enough descent that you wouldn't crash.
	And what's this explosive charge airbag?
	Yes, that's another concept that I have.
	It's something that fits around the waist.
	It contemplates a crash, right?
	Right.
	If you run into something or you lose total power and you start falling.
	Like you could run into a building, even?
	Right.
	This would, uh, you could have it manually triggered yourself where you could have some kind of sensor.
	Uh, that would explode this toy bag.
	It'd be a donut-shaped bag that would go around your waist, maybe four feet in diameter.
	Uh-huh.
	Uh, and the drag on that, the air drag, would be enough to slow you down.
	And if you fell so many hundreds of feet to the ground, you'd just bounce.
	Kind of like, uh, some of the spacecraft that, uh, went down on Mars in this ball.
	That's exactly correct, yes.
	You're absolutely right.
	Okay, same idea.
	Um, all right, all right, all right.
	Uh, what about Flight time.
	How long can you stay in the air with this backpack?
	Theoretically.
	Yeah, because it's not a reaction system.
	Remember the old rocket belt?
	Oh, sure.
	You could only stay up in the air 20 seconds.
	The guys flying down there at Disneyland to the world.
	In fact, I just went to their website just this morning to see if they're still around.
	They make the rocket belt.
	They do 20 seconds, huh?
	I think of hydrogen peroxide.
	Really?
	And... 30 seconds.
	That's pretty interesting.
	But your device... Yeah.
	Now, I could... Because all the energy now... This is an important lesson here.
	A reaction engine, a rocket engine, puts most of its energy in that exhaust stream.
	That high velocity gas coming out of there... Right.
	...absorbs a lot of energy.
	Now in my system, because it's a black box system, it takes that energy and recycles it through the system to create thrust.
	So I don't have that enormous loss in energy.
	So I'm going to be up there for several hours.
	Hours?
	On a one gallon tank of gas.
	For the engines?
	Yeah, I can be up there for several hours.
	And you think airspeed 60 miles an hour and about 120 miles of range?
	Yes.
	Wow.
	That is flying.
	It's a completely efficient system.
	Highly efficient in the utilization of energy, reducing pollution.
	And you don't think it would be too loud?
	You talk about noise level as low humming sound muffled.
	I think that the next generation of power source would be the fuel cell.
	Which the automotive industry, I know Toyota is introducing a vehicle, a truck, powered by a hydrogen fuel cell this year, for sale in Japan, and that technology could then also be applied to my backpack.
	Sure it could.
	Electric motor and a fuel cell, that would be completely quiet.
	Wow.
	Now, how much would, what do you weigh?
	I weigh 195.
	195 pounds.
	When you had all your gear on, both engines, the diehard battery, the oil, the whole ball
	of wax here, how much would you weigh?
	Well, actually, this system here, I actually built this system to fall off and it weighed
	about 42 pounds.
	So I decided it was too heavy.
	I'm working on a second model, which I just actually tested here about a couple days ago.
	You did?
	That weighs 25 pounds.
	Oh, really?
	Yeah.
	That's 25 pounds?
	It's one engine, though.
	It's one engine.
	Oh, I see.
	So you don't have the redundancy, but hopefully that engine has a lot of reliability.
	Would you be willing, if it came to it, to take a flight with one engine, you know, after you've done some tethered stuff?
	Um, I think the electric system, uh, my gut feeling is that electric fuel cell system is going to have a higher reliability than a gasoline system.
	Uh, you know, there's a lot of instances where electric motors are used in industry and, uh, chemical plant processing and everything, and they just hardly ever fail.
	Yeah, but as you know, I broke my arm hang gliding.
	God, it was a compound fracture.
	It was awful.
	Just about, like, one inch, two inches above the elbow.
	And, um, that was hang gliding.
	Now, uh, with ultralights, for example, when the, um, reciprocating engine goes poop, you can generally, uh, glide to the, you know, the ground.
	Now, with this system, obviously, if, uh, it were to stop, and you were up at, uh, you know, a thousand feet, say, Then you're Wile E. Coyote.
	Well, of course, you got the airbag there.
	Yeah, you got the airbag.
	What about a full parachute?
	Have you thought about that?
	I think what's going to happen is the government will regulate us and say you can't go above 100 feet, 200 feet.
	In other words, you have to clear the tops of most buildings.
	Well, that's still enough.
	Or a tree line.
	But you really don't need to go higher Yeah, but if you fell from 200 feet, James, you'd still, you know, you'd hit the concrete like a pumpkin.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Right.
	So that's where... There's no aerodynamic safety net here at all.
	Why not?
	A parachute wouldn't open that quickly?
	One of the other ideas I had, they have a...
	A system for, I think it's even the ultralights.
	If you have the same problem as an ultralight, if you have a collapse of your wing structure.
	That would do it.
	There is a parachute that is a rocket ejected parachute.
	That's right.
	It's a rocket out.
	That's right.
	Which gets the parachute deployed and then that will open at low altitude and get you down.
	And so something like that.
	Yeah.
	Might be a good idea.
	Now, in your hand, uh, again, I'm looking at this, uh, this figure you've drawn.
	In your hand, you've got a throttle, and you would, uh, uh, control the, the rotation of the, or the, the, the speed of the rotation of the engines, which would then control, uh, the amount of lift you, as, you know, we're talking, talking about strange terms here, lift.
	But it's terms that people can understand.
	So that would really control the amount of lift, right?
	Yes.
	I'm saying, using these terms so people can understand what we're talking about.
	That's exactly correct.
	It's very similar to a leaf blower.
	In fact, one of the things that I was looking at, I went into the local home improvement store.
	They sell leaf blowers.
	They wouldn't be good?
	No, the biggest engine that they have is 59cc so that's about 4 horsepower.
	It might do the trick and it's almost ready to go.
	It's got a blower in there but I pull the blower out and put in my rotor system and I have something that's ready to go.
	It's got a throttle control on it.
	I might want to supercharge the engine to get a little extra horsepower.
	I don't know if I can do that.
	No, I would imagine that, you know, that this would be a fairly smooth process.
	But you say that when you're testing this, it shakes the entire... Why is it it shakes the building you're in when you test?
	Oh, because I'm doing the static test on the ground.
	I've got it on the four concrete blocks that are resting on the floor of my apartment.
	I'm on the second floor.
	Uh-huh.
	Oh, so these buildings are like, uh, three-quarter inch plywood on the floor, so there's not that much structure there.
	There's not a concrete, uh, floor.
	So the person then below you is... Yeah, he's on a concrete floor.
	Uh-huh, I know, but you're on his... Yeah, I should, uh, I need to switch apartments.
	You're on his roof, as it is now.
	Yeah.
	Uh-huh.
	Uh, and that probably is the source of most of the complaining, I would imagine.
	Right, yeah.
	This is absolutely incredible.
	And you've been working on this, you say, how long?
	Actually, I started it as a hobby back in Colorado Springs.
	I started out building rockets, model rockets and everything.
	And then the June issue of Analog Magazine came out, 1960, and had an article about the Dean Drive.
	And I was hooked.
	I gave up rockets and got hooked on the Dean Drive.
	I think you got a photograph there.
	He's the guy that really got it started.
	One of the pioneering geniuses.
	But unfortunately, he was ahead of his time.
	As a matter of fact, we've got a photograph of Dean right here with his contraption.
	He's the brain behind all this, and I've just taken on his research.
	He passed away in 1972.
	It looks to me like he's got a drill motor.
	Yes.
	Is that a drill motor attached to the apparatus?
	Yes, a drill motor with a flexi shaft, driving a chain drive with six units, which is really
	how many you need to get smooth force.
	You need six of them.
	It's a complicated piece of machinery to build.
	And what year was the photograph?
	1958.
	And according to the family, that thing lifted off the table.
	It came off the table?
	Yep it hovered a couple inches off the table.
	Alright, hold on James, we're at the top of the hour.
	Listen everybody, you've got to see this photograph.
	This Dean photograph, and it's got his complete apparatus in it.
	And this was from 1958. It looks like it was from 1958.
	And this is the principle behind what James Cox is now ready to turn into a backpack.
	That will let us all fly.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Oh, you will be my one.
	Once upon a time, once when you were mine, I remember your strides, reflected in your eyes.
	I wonder where you are, I wonder if you think about me.
	Once upon a time, in your wildest dreams.
	To reach our goal in the kingdom of night.
	From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	800-618-8255, east of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222, or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1222.
	775-727-1295. To reach Art on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator
	and have them dial 800-893-0903. This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio
	Network. If you just joined us, I can understand that you're puzzled, certainly. We're talking to
	a man, James Cox, now 58 years of age, with an extensive background. I'm going to read that
	again because I just think you understand you need to understand who you're listening to.
	And on the one hand, I know some people are sitting out there saying, crazy as a loon, but maybe crazy like a fox.
	You've got to get to my website and see the diagram that he's provided to see the actual Backpack and then most of all now you've got to see this picture of Dean and his machine from 1958 that used a drill motor and is of course a much smaller scale in a sense and you can You certainly can see if this principle is sound if a centrifugal force Applied in the manner that he's talking about will actually cars lift and take something up off the ground it's claimed that this machine of Mr. Dean's that you can see an actual photograph of lifted up off the table and that's what James is working on so we'll get back to all of this and James James Cox in a moment stay right there
	All right, once again, so you understand James' background.
	He's now 58 years old, a Vietnam vet.
	He has a Bachelor of Science degree in physics from California, California Polytechnic.
	Politech in 1973, he was a member of the technical staff of the TRW Space and Defense Group in Redondo Beach, California, where he specialized in ion space propulsion testing and magnetohydrodynamic power generation in rockets.
	He later held the position of systems engineer for General Dynamics, where he worked on Aegis weapon system upgrades and Star Wars electromagnetic gun development for the for Eglin Air Force Base Weapons Development Center.
	I mean, this is some background, right?
	He is the inventor of the Dipolar Force Field Propulsion System for high-altitude electro-dynamic aircraft propulsion.
	In 1972, he published the Space Drive Handbook, reviewing the technology status of anti-gravity teleportation, inertial propulsion, force field propulsion, free energy, and UFOs as spacecraft.
	Uh, he publishes And to publish a newsletter on anti-gravity and space drive research.
	And he has filed a patent.
	He did so in 2001 on the Gravito Inertial Lift System.
	That's what we're talking about right now.
	A device that lifts payloads vertically without the use of rockets, jets, or propellers.
	One application is obviously as pictured here.
	The Backpack Personal Lifter Uh, that he's currently working on and perfecting.
	And, uh, just as a matter of interest, James, how much money do you think you would need right now to take this where it needs to go?
	Uh, basically, we would like to get to a prototype status, uh, which would be, like, ready for production, uh, with some minor, uh, modifications for improving manufacturability, et cetera.
	And, uh, I think I need to bring in a mechanical engineer that can do a full up professional engineering job on a test test selection of materials.
	I'll probably have to go to composite materials.
	But I mean, if I said, look, the funds are endless and I'm here to write you a check, I want to know how much money it's going to take you.
	I think $100,000 for the engineering and also to do duration testing.
	$100,000 for the engineering and also to do Duration testing $100,000 would either
	so Minus if you don't get the hundred thousand which is really
	it's a lot and yet it's a drop in the bucket with what you're talking
	If you don't get the $100,000, you're going to proceed anyway, aren't you?
	I'm going to plod along at my snail's pace with my limited resources, and the next step is to try to get my hands on that 10-horsepower engine.
	Right, sure.
	Okay, the picture, I imagine that's going to be easy.
	The picture of Dean here from 1958.
	He's using a drill motor.
	What kind of RPM rotation do you think he got from that motor?
	Uh, I think it was 1,200.
	1,200?
	Yeah, it looks like a three-eighths drill, because usually they're either 1,200 or 2,400 for the quarter inch.
	Okay.
	So, you think it's probably 12?
	Yeah, 1,200 RPM.
	He needs some torque.
	And with that, The story was this machine that we've got in the photograph lifted up off the table.
	Yes.
	You believe that?
	I believe it, yes.
	I didn't see it.
	They did not have a motion picture film.
	I have met with the family.
	They were very generous in sharing information with me.
	I got to see the original models and went through all the trunks of his correspondence and research.
	And they're interested in seeing their father vindicated.
	He did not exactly enjoy financial success with his discovery.
	James, why do you think, if this much was known and was real in 1958, and this Mr. Dean looks like a pretty serious guy, why do you think, you know, NASA and I don't know.
	General Dynamics and whoever all wouldn't grab onto this and proceed with the technology.
	What happened?
	It's called the mindset problem.
	People have a mindset and it's very difficult to change their mindset.
	And the first problem is with the physicists.
	They say this can't work because it's Violates Newton's Third Law of Motion.
	But even your experiment thus far, the one in which you started out with a weight of, I'm sorry, how much?
	150 pounds.
	150 pounds.
	You reduced, you said, that weight by 60 pounds, just with a partial small model hooked up.
	You reduced that weight by 60 pounds.
	Now right there, flying or not, that ought to be enough.
	To convince any physicist, shouldn't it?
	Well, Dean's complaint was that he couldn't get anybody to look at his device.
	Nobody would show up at the door to look at it.
	He never had the opportunity to present the data.
	They refused to look at it.
	They refuse to look at it.
	I mean, science is... boy, we run up against that all the time in this program, whether it's Mars models, you know, or exploding planets, or whatever all.
	We keep running up against this stone wall of scientists who just, no matter what, Won't even examine something that might threaten their pet theories.
	Keep in mind that this occurred in 1960, roughly speaking, and Kennedy had given his speech about going to the moon.
	Oh, yes.
	And he was very close to Dr. Wernher von Braun, who was the chief scientist behind the Apollo spacecraft, both space vehicle.
	So a political decision had been made that we're going to the moon using the Saturn V rocket, and Von Braun is the man to lead the effort.
	And I think Dean was a victim of that political decision.
	Well, to be sure.
	Obviously, if the Dean drive worked, and Dean had achieved some notoriety about his success, that would reflect on the foolishness of the decision to use a giant rocket.
	To go to the moon and not the Dean Drive.
	All right, you've included a diagram of Dean's model here, right?
	Uh-huh.
	So, essentially... That's the original, his design.
	Yeah, I understand.
	Not my design.
	I've got you.
	But, essentially, by putting this up here, you're giving this away.
	I mean, it's patented, but somebody else out there... Yeah, the patent was filed by Dean in 1959.
	There were two patents.
	They both expired.
	Uh, around, uh, 1980.
	So they're in the public domain now.
	Anybody can own a V-Drive.
	Oh, I see.
	In fact, one of the things I want to do is encourage people to start looking at this machine.
	You don't mind?
	Absolutely not.
	I mean, there are people, obviously... It sounds like you have limited resources, James, and there are people with nearly unlimited resources, so... I would encourage people and will support people To do research on this, and in particular, the key thing to study is the oscillator, the physics of the oscillator, because we need to chip away at the physics mindset that says that the oscillator cannot move its center of gravity.
	And the whole key to the successful operation of this machine was a discovery about how this oscillator behaves.
	Unbalanced rotors actually break Corollary 4.
	It's actually Corollary 4 to Newton's Third Law.
	And Corollary 4 says that no system of bodies can, by any interactions of their own parts, alter the state of motion of their center of gravity.
	So this, it doesn't violate the Third Law of Action and Reaction.
	The oscillator still produces a backward Uh, and forward, uh, opposite and equal forces.
	But it does this with a time lag.
	In other words, the forces are not simultaneous.
	The action and reaction forces are not simultaneous.
	There's a time lag between them.
	Right, I've got it.
	And there's a trick.
	There's a trick or secret in how you design this oscillator to get this time lag.
	And, uh, it's basically called the Coriolis force.
	Uh, the Coriolis force is the force that you experience on a merry-go-round.
	Let's say you go on a merry-go-round, which is this toy that the children play with.
	So centrally, that's a centrifuge of its... Right.
	It's a platform that rotates around.
	You spin it.
	Uh, Manny, you push on it, then you jump on it, and you've got these handlebars.
	Yep.
	If you walk, as it's spinning, as you walk, of course you experience some typical force that throws you out.
	Yes.
	Uh, that wants to throw you off the merry-go-round.
	Right.
	And if you start walking towards the center of the merry-go-round, there's a sideways force that tends to knock you over as you move radially.
	Right.
	And that's called the Coriolis force.
	So, there are two forces, compound forces, as they're called.
	The centrifugal force and the Coriolis force, which are at 90 degrees to each other.
	Right.
	And it's these two forces that need to be used in the analysis of this oscillator that comes up with this time lag between action and reaction.
	That actually does make some sense.
	That is the loophole in Newton's Third Law that the physicists don't understand.
	And the only way they're going to understand it is if they build an oscillator.
	And I want to give them the information tonight.
	On how to build this oscillator.
	Well, you know that actually does make some sense to me, James.
	Yes, but what they've been doing historically in the textbooks is ignoring the Coriolis force.
	When you go and take your physics courses, they teach you about centrifugal force, but they don't teach you the Coriolis force until you're a junior or senior in your physics classes.
	And many engineers have never even heard of the Coriolis force.
	But that's really what's used here to, as you put it, change the center of gravity and provide movement.
	It's like centrifugal force.
	There's a deflection effect.
	It's because it acts at right angles to the radius.
	That's incredible.
	And that causes a phase angle.
	And incidentally, Dean called it the phasing phenomenon.
	He was a student of Nikola Tesla, and of course you're a uh... i don't think you can answer you know about uh...
	lpr tank circuits and how are they going to occur in the electrical circuit with
	inductance of course you're acting as a person who acted of course and uh...
	dean was a student of tesla he admired very much to our test was work
	and his operator is nothing more than an analog to an lpr tank circuit the equations are very similar
	here's a couple more questions for you Again, I'm going back to the operation of this unit.
	If you get this unit operational, it seems to me that its very nature is going to mean that you could leave, if you wanted to, with this, if it works.
	You could very easily and slowly Leave the atmosphere.
	I mean, you could just keep going up.
	Right.
	Now... As long as there's the gravity.
	Now, what I maintain... Yeah, that's what I was going to ask.
	As we get higher and higher, and as we begin to leave the gravitational field of the Earth... But you're not.
	You're leaving the atmosphere.
	But the gravity's still there.
	The gravity is still there, at least... A little bit weaker, but not that much weaker.
	Well, as you go further from the center of the Earth, it falls off as R-squared.
	Well, suppose you get out to the point where you do begin to actually lose the magnetic influence of the Earth as a strong factor.
	In other words, somewhere between here and, I don't know, Well, they call it the Lagrangian point.
	You get a certain distance between the Earth and the Moon where the Moon, the force of the Moon, takes over.
	Exactly.
	And that's called the Lagrangian point.
	In fact, there was a fellow by the name of Dr. O'Neill who put a space station out at these L5 points.
	I'm obviously asking you about space travel, really.
	Yeah.
	And its application to space travel.
	Yes, it's very exciting because what this technology Portend for the future is a possibility of constant 1G acceleration all the way to Mars, or at least to the midpoint.
	Let's say that Mars is 150 million miles away.
	If you do calculation, accelerating at 1G, which is the normal gravity that we experience
	on Earth, it takes about three days to get to the midpoint and another three days to
	get to the surface of Mars.
	So in about a week's time, we could be in orbit around Mars with this Dean Drive technology.
	Wow.
	That's just, that's amazing to even contemplate, but it certainly would make sense.
	And from the moment the first man ever lifts off ground, that's where it's going to go.
	I mean, at that point, nobody's going to be able to ignore it any longer.
	Unfortunately, I can't get physicists or engineers to look at this.
	Not because there's any errors in my data.
	They're going to look tonight.
	I hope so.
	Oh no, there's absolutely no question about it, James.
	They're going to look tonight.
	And if there's any major holes in it, they're going to complain loudly.
	Right.
	You can be sure of that.
	I certainly need to publish all my research, which would be a lot of work just to do the documentation on it.
	But because of the enormous potentialities of this technology, everybody has a risk level that they're willing to take to learn something new and break their own mindset about how the universe is.
	I think we have now reached a point in this country where the independent researchers who are willing to take risks, many people like myself, hundreds of independent inventors, beautiful minds we might say, are taking risks to come up with new inventions and technology.
	And we're reducing the risk so that NASA can start looking at this without fear.
	Hold it right there, James.
	We will be right back.
	Jay Cox is my guest.
	Anti-gravity backpack, that's what he's talking about.
	That's what he's going to be trying pretty soon.
	Up on the website, you can see it right now.
	Sweet dreams are made of the years.
	Who am I to disagree?
	I travel the world and the seven seas...
	I follow the city streets, speeding...
	I'm away from the neon, turn the dark to day...
	It's too hot to be sleeping...
	We had to get out before the magic got away...
	It's a morning with a night...
	I'm playing in the shadows...
	I'll find you at night...
	Till the morning light...
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	Tomorrow night, by the way, it's going to be very, very interesting.
	Major Ed Dames is going to be here.
	We're going to ask about Chandra Levy, among many other things, of course, but we'll certainly ask about that.
	Uh, that one's really up in the air, kind of like this morning's topic.
	What an incredible topic.
	Um... Kathy, fast blast.
	What have I missed?
	His pack cocks himself, working on anti-gravity?
	Is it on your web?
	Yes, it is, by the way.
	She goes on, I've printed the diagram.
	Is this some form of forced rapture?
	Forced rapture, so...
	I don't know.
	That would be technology then that only the Christians would have.
	Up they'd go.
	Tom Bodette.
	Thinking this internet thing might finally take off.
	My guest is James Cox.
	And he's an engineer, and he's a lot of things.
	He's a wild man, but he may be absolutely right about what he's doing.
	Mike in Las Vegas, you know, I think makes pretty good observation.
	You know, I get these little computer messages, James, as I do the show, and he does make a good point.
	He said, look, how hard could it be for him to get funding?
	I just don't get it.
	I mean, you're talking about the cost of a... I mean, certainly 100 grand to really do it right, but I mean, to get a model that would fly, or... That's not the right word, really.
	Would do what it does anyway defy gravity or You know, I keep getting stuck in all this just so people can understand it I guess that includes me but getting to that scale model You're only talking about an engine and some work on your part It's not that much money How hard could it be to get that much money?
	I The other thing that would be included, hopefully, would be to put together a computer simulation.
	I think that would be, I don't know if the same person could do it as the engineer, but somebody needs to do a mathematical modeling of it so we can really dig into optimizing the design.
	You're absolutely right.
	100,000 should be able to Uh, be achievable.
	The only problem is it does take time.
	Yeah, but even if you get a hundred grand, uh, if you get the right size engine, now that's going to be cheap, relatively, compared to the hundred thousand, right?
	Right.
	Uh, to get a model that you could probably kill yourself in, uh, that wouldn't take that much.
	And, of course, I'd need to basically get into a facility up here in the Reno area, get a building, uh, where I could, uh, set up a lab and do the testing and And not worry about my neighbors complaining about the noise.
	Now, are there any, and I'm sure you've thought very hard about this, and you know so much more about it than I do, that I'll just ask straight out, are there any possible lurking dangers in this?
	Where do you see any possible danger in any of this, or is it totally non-dangerous?
	Well, knowing the history of liquid fuel rocket research by Robert H. Goddard, this is a piece of cake.
	First of all, it's a cold system.
	Yeah, but my question still stands.
	Is there any area of danger or anything you've, you know, as you've thought about it over all these years, been concerned about?
	I've never had a rotor blown off.
	Incidentally, I have built 50, 60 oscillators and two dozen, almost 24 thrust models.
	Over the last 30 years of active investigation.
	And you've never had?
	Never!
	Never once has a rotor been thrown off the axle.
	That's a pretty good record.
	Yeah.
	Especially for testing.
	Think about an automobile engine, how it operates.
	It has a piston moving up and down and a cranks rod.
	Right.
	And incidentally, that's an unbalanced mass.
	And it has to be balanced.
	It's called the... The robe on your crankshaft is a counterweight to the rod.
	Right.
	And that's a perfectly balanced system.
	And you just think, how often does an automobile engine throw a rod and cause damage to the engine?
	It's just... Very infrequent.
	Although I had a car that threw one when I was young.
	If I can build this thing to the commercial quality that we have every day in the automobile engine, Uh, we're going to have a device that has equal reliability.
	I mean, you can get 100, 200,000 miles out of these engines these days.
	That's true.
	That's true.
	And, uh, but, but, you know, I mean, the first application, uh, seems like the one you're working on the backpack, but my God, James, how would you control I mean, people right now bump into each other on sidewalks, they bump into each other in automobiles, and at a rate of 50,000 or better a year, kill themselves in car crashes.
	If we were filling the sky like little bees from a hive... Incidentally, bees never collide.
	If you notice.
	Bees have figured out how to do it.
	Humans ought to be able to do it.
	Come on.
	Bees?
	Well, then I'm not smarter than a bee.
	Hovering around the beehives and the queen, you'd think they would collide with each other, but they don't.
	Why not?
	They must use something.
	Radar or something.
	But we don't seem to have that.
	Oh, we do.
	But we do have radar.
	Uh... Incidentally, NASA has a program.
	Uh... Are you speaking of an internal radar like the B?
	Yeah, something that would detect the presence of a nearby vehicle.
	Uh... Then why aren't we... Kind of like a bumper, a radar bumper.
	Then why aren't we using it on the interstates?
	Uh, cost.
	Just cost.
	Well, if it's an internal, inherent... How much would it add to the, uh, the price of the car?
	Well, you know, you're talking about real radar now.
	I was talking about this internal, uh, inherent sense that you're claiming we have like the bees, we just don't use it.
	Well, uh, no, I mean as a human being, as human beings.
	Yes, sir.
	No, no, no, I was, I was simply saying that the, uh, the bees have some way of doing it.
	I think the way the bees do it is they, because they, uh, produce motion of the air around them, uh, that they sense.
	Wind coming in their direction.
	Could be that.
	Could be sound.
	That's what they are detecting.
	It's like an acoustical detection system.
	They pick up the sound of another being.
	But what I'm driving at is human... In our case, we would use radar.
	I mean, the car itself would have a black box in it that would sense the nearby presence of other vehicles.
	So if something... And in my device, because I'm up in the air and I have mobility, three-dimensional... Right.
	...capability to move in three dimensions, if I sense A nearby object that I'm going to collide with, you could easily automate my engine to de-vector it.
	Okay, well, then it brings up a couple of questions.
	Your device, in simple terms, 0 to 60 miles an hour in how fast?
	Oh, in terms of acceleration?
	Yes, sir.
	I think we could go, of course, to hover is 1G.
	When you're hovering, you're overcoming the force of gravity.
	That's 1G.
	Right.
	I think we could be able to, as a design goal, be able to operate at 2G.
	So in other words, you can accelerate equal to jumping off a building.
	The speed that you pick up by jumping off a building, which is 1G downward, that would be how fast you could pick up speed.
	And it would conversely be how quickly you could decelerate?
	Absolutely, yeah.
	So, your stopping distance at 60 miles an hour would be like what?
	Uh, 32 feet per second squared, so it'd be just a matter of a few seconds.
	A few seconds to come to a complete stop from 60?
	Yeah, because 60 miles an hour is 88 feet per second, so 32 goes into 80, that's about 3 seconds.
	Wow.
	Um, this is so incredible.
	Aren't you dying, perhaps, poor choice of words, to try this?
	I mean, at least at the tether level.
	I mean, if you're tied off with a rope or something, aren't you dying to try that?
	Absolutely, yeah.
	Just as Bowler, we've seen pictures of Bowler in his early days in the flying saucer way up there in the air, maybe 30, 40 feet on a tether.
	That's right.
	And it must have been a thrill of a lifetime to see his own piece of work actually sitting in that thing and being up in the air.
	Listen, let me give you a plug here.
	It says you publish a newsletter on anti-gravity and space drive research.
	Are you still publishing that newsletter?
	I suspended it. I want to resume it. Of course, I'm so busy.
	Well, then I can't even give you a plug.
	I'm pursuing a patent application.
	Yeah, I can't even give you a plug for it if you're not... What I'm doing is selling the back issues that are available.
	Oh, you have back issues?
	There's like 15 back issues at $10 a piece.
	Really?
	And what I wanted to do for the readers tonight, because I am... I have listeners, listeners.
	Excuse me.
	Yeah, there you go.
	What I'm proposing to do is to put together a package that would have a video, a 45 minute video that summarizes all my test data.
	That would be great.
	A special report on the Dean Drive, the history of the Dean Drive, and a A catalog of some of the future products that I hope to sell.
	All right, so this is all, though, something that you're going to do.
	You haven't done it yet.
	What you have available right now would be back issues of your newsletter.
	Yes.
	And in that newsletter, I take it you document everything we've talked about tonight and a whole lot more.
	Right.
	The whole subject of anti-gravity, which gets into all the other inventors.
	There's almost a hundred other researchers who've looked at different areas of anti-gravity.
	And what I've done is build up a database.
	We're talking about 750, 800 pages over the last four years of documentation of the history of experimental antigravity.
	And this is $10 a copy?
	So in other words, if somebody sends you $10, they're going to get at least one issue and $10 each?
	Right, they can go to the website and pick the issue they want or they can get the whole thing.
	To get the complete set would be $150.
	Right, but they could start with one, so they could immediately know if they want to... One on the Dean Drive.
	I can't remember which one it is, but you can go to the newsletter index there and find out which one... Okay, that's on the web.
	Not everybody has a web.
	Do you have a way for people to get hold of you other than the web?
	Yes, my email is, uh, they can email me directly.
	Well, that's still, I'll let you give it, but that's still the web.
	And then my post office box.
	The best way is, is, is, uh, through the mail.
	And I don't have an entered phone number.
	I have my home, uh, phone number.
	Uh, you can give that.
	I can put that, uh, eventually I'll put that up on the, uh, the website.
	Okay.
	Uh, I was going to say you're allowed to give out whatever you want.
	So if you want to give out a P.O.
	Box address, go ahead and do that.
	Uh, okay, it's, uh, post office box, uh, 7-11-51, Reno, Nevada, 8-9-5-7-0-11-51.
	Okay.
	We'll give that again after a while for those of you that want to... That would be the best way to just, uh, you know... Run and get a pen or a pencil or something.
	thing. Um, and put up a box 7 11 51 Reno, Nevada, 89570 dash 11 51. All right. What
	about an email address?
	That's James E. Cox, Enterprise.
	And then my email is bootstrapcox at yahoo.com.
	Bootstrapcox at yahoo.com?
	Yeah.
	Of course, bootstrap comes from the physics notion that you can't build a bootstrap lifter.
	That's where the bootstrap comes from.
	I see.
	Bootstrapcox.
	Surely you have run this idea by some Some men of some level of science, yes?
	I've had anti-gravity conferences up here in Reno at the Public Library for the last two or three years.
	I haven't had one since the year 2000, and we've had some physics professors from UNR visit me, and one of them, I won't mention his name, but he has certainly, he was very excited.
	Got him up to my apartment and showed him the laboratory setup where I have a transducer mounted inside my system measuring the action and reaction forces.
	And I can put it on the oscilloscope and you can compare the two forces and you find that the thrust force is ten times larger than the recoil force.
	Wow.
	And he was very excited and enthusiastic about it.
	And so we worked together for quite a while.
	So you're doing all this, James, out of an apartment?
	Right.
	Out of an apartment?
	What does your apartment look like?
	It's just a regular apartment complex.
	Well, no, no, I understand that.
	But I mean, it sounds like you have a lot of equipment packed into your apartment.
	Well, I do have a storage locker.
	So, unfortunately, you know, most of my books and my older models I have, you know, stored away.
	Sure.
	Um, you're not close.
	You mentioned to me you were concerned about becoming evicted.
	Uh, you're not threatened.
	Oh, no.
	No, I was just kind of joking.
	Uh, it's, it's, it's no problem.
	Um, I think eventually I have to get set up into... Probably, yes.
	I really need a place to work.
	I assume you've spoken to your landlord about all of this.
	Oh, sure.
	And how does your landlord handle it?
	Um...
	They know I'm a good tenant, and I'm very respectful of my neighbors, so there hasn't really been any problem.
	No problem?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And the man below you, even then, no problem?
	The only problem is at night.
	He needs to get his sleep, but during the day, people turn their radios up and are allowed to make a little bit of noise.
	But basically at night, after 9 o'clock when people want to get their sleep, you have to Yeah, well, the kind of engine that you use, there's no way to really avoid... It sounds like a vacuum cleaner engine, because I'm using the skill saw, but of course, once I get into the gas engine, then I have to... Well, then you have vibration problems.
	Then I have to go over to the park, take it over to the local park there and run it in the city park.
	That would be... It'd be portable.
	You know, it's portable.
	It's a gasoline engine, so I could...
	I'm curious, by the way, in your picture, the drawing of the backpack, you have a tree there.
	Why?
	Just as a reference, or what?
	Reference to just make people sense that it's up in the air.
	The thing is off the ground.
	This is a frame of reference.
	Oh, I see, I see.
	Yeah.
	God, this is so incredible.
	I suppose other methods of power would be much, much quieter.
	You mentioned the fuel cell, for example.
	Yes.
	In fact, I have a friend, there's another patent that I mentioned, my bipolar force field propulsion system, which is electric force field propulsion, with the other area of technology, it's propellant-less Propulsion that NASA uses, where you use your field to interact with the atmosphere and you could presumably get into orbital velocity if you could have enough electricity to drive the thing.
	And Michael McDonald, who has been on your show in the past as the UFO hacker, has formed a company called uh... beta-voltaic
	his website is info at beta-voltaic dot com
	and uh... he has a nuclear uh...
	isotope uh... power source that he has uh...
	promoting and he wants to team up with me and to use it in my field propulsion system
	Oh, really?
	For launching satellites into orbit.
	Oh, um, that would make all the sense in the world, uh... He's really a good, uh, businessman.
	He has the company fully organized in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
	You actually wouldn't, in a conventional sense, launch a satellite, would you?
	You would sort of float it up to orbit.
	Right.
	That would be closer than launch.
	Basically, yeah.
	It would be a totally electrically propelled craft.
	A delta wing type thing.
	You would just launch it as a glider at low altitude.
	Uh, radioactive isotope power source.
	The thing produces a tremendous amount of power.
	Oh, yes.
	Millions and millions of watts in a very compact system.
	It's kind of like cold fusion.
	It's the promise of cold fusion.
	Uh, and, uh, and this is, uh, available technology.
	And, uh, so we could, uh, launch very, uh, we'd start out with a subscale system.
	And just launch small satellites into orbit, maybe a couple kilograms, you know, nanotechnology kind of stuff.
	And then we'd use the Air Force, local Air Force base to help us track it, make sure it got into orbit.
	That would make... Just to be the proof of principle.
	That would certainly make sense.
	Alright, James, hold on.
	When we get back, I'd like to open the lines.
	How do you think people are going to take this, James?
	Well, I hope that a few percentage of them are going to be open-minded, but I think a lot of people are going to be Uh, you know.
	We'll see, James.
	What do you mean with her own mindset?
	We'll, we'll see.
	It's coming up next, all right?
	Okay.
	Take a deep breath and relax and we'll be back and we'll go to the phones with James Cox and his backpack in a moment.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Don't see me this way.
	I can't survive.
	I can't save my life without your love Oh baby
	So irresponsible, practical Then they show me a world where I could be so dependable
	Oh, can it go?
	Oh, intellectual cynical.
	There are times when all the world's asleep.
	The questions run too deep.
	For such a simple mind.
	You're such a sinful man Won't you please, please tell me what's love
	I know it sounds absurd Please tell me who I am
	And actually, if you listen very carefully, the words to this song fit Mr. James Cox and his invention perfectly
	Listen, what would you say if I'd be calling you a radical A liberal or a magical criminal
	Oh, won't you sign up for me? We'd like to be your acceptable
	To respect and own, all the peasants and all our vegetables.
	Oh, take, take, take it away!
	Do reach Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from West of the Rockies, Dial 1.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
	1-800-825-5033. First time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard line
	at 1-775-727-1295. To rechart on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator
	and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	I wonder if they've called James a radical, communist, criminal.
	Many times, you know, when people come along with radical new ideas, Uh, they're thusly labeled.
	That and actually much worse, so... Uh, in a moment we'll ask that, and then we'll launch into the phone lines and let you ask James anything you want to.
	Stay right there.
	Alright, uh, that- that is the question, uh, James.
	I mean, a lot of times, uh, when people like you are around, you know, they're labeled either crazy or communist or...
	God knows what all.
	They're labeled.
	Have you run into that in the presentation of your ideas?
	Or have you been generally respectfully treated by almost everybody?
	I remember when we first started out on the Internet.
	It's been about five or six years now.
	There was a phrase that they used to apply.
	It was called dissident physicists.
	And there's some famous names there.
	Bruce DePalma.
	Oh, sure.
	Millennial Twain.
	Uh, uh, uh, and, and, and, and many others who actually wound up in Australia.
	I guess they, uh, Stan Dale.
	Stan Dale, yes.
	Uh, was kind of a dissident, uh, physicist.
	They all wound up in Australia.
	And, uh, but today, I, I noticed that the dissident physicist phrase has disappeared.
	At some point, we started becoming respectable.
	And, uh, I haven't had that problem at all.
	All right.
	Can I interrupt?
	Of course.
	I forgot that there's on my website, there's a section I must be getting groggy called items for sale.
	If you go to the third page, if you can scroll down to page three.
	Of course, I have a printed copy I'm working from.
	What kind of items for sale do you have?
	Click on it.
	Did you find it?
	Just click on it.
	I'm sitting here on some questions from the audience.
	Videos.
	I've had these three conferences.
	They're all videotaped.
	They're eight hours long.
	And for $100, you can get the complete set of videos for the conference.
	That's eight hours of material.
	And, uh, so just click on items for sale on page, uh, three.
	Oh, you should have told me about that.
	Yeah, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm, I just, uh, like I said, I sleep at the switch.
	And there's other videos on gyroscopic propulsion, the Dean, the Dean drive.
	I, you know, I've, I have lots of videos that I put together that are available.
	Right.
	Here's... and you wouldn't have to sell that many to get enough money to, you know, at least try a model, would you?
	Well, at $100,000, if I could sell 1,000 to get 1,000 customers... Yes, then obviously.
	...you know, $100 purchases each, I'd be in good shape.
	You'd be in good shape.
	All right.
	Fritz in Phoenix, Arizona says, hi Art, according to my math, the personal lifter Should be able to lift one of the cement test blocks off the ground.
	Has he tried to lift anything lighter than 150 pounds?
	And if not, why not?
	The answer is absolutely yes.
	I have levitated heavy mass or lighter masses completely off the ground.
	You have?
	Yes, I have.
	But it's a single system.
	But James, wait, wait, wait.
	Do you do you have video of your levitating?
	Yes, it's in the video.
	That you could order.
	Really?
	Yes.
	All I do is I do updates on the videos as I get new data.
	James, I wish you had sent a still photograph at least if not an MPEG file for me to put up on the website.
	Well, I did.
	Did you ever get the CD from Mrs. Conrad?
	I did not.
	That shows the weight loss experiment hanging from the scale.
	There was a CD I sent you.
	Okay, but what about something actually levitating?
	I haven't got sustained levitation because that takes six units.
	I'm working towards continuous thrust.
	People do tend to assume that I'm like a rocket producing continuous thrust, but it's a 60-degree pulse.
	It does levitate during the pulse.
	When that pulse comes up, it's off the ground.
	But like I said, you need six of those pulses.
	Uh, over 360 degrees to contain the levitation.
	As in the Dean machine.
	Exactly.
	And there's a lot of workmanship.
	What you're getting into is basically manufacturing.
	You're setting up a manufacturing operation.
	I understand.
	I do understand.
	And making six identical units.
	And that's another difficult step.
	All right.
	All right.
	To the phones.
	I promised.
	So here we go.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with James Cox.
	Hello.
	Hi, all right, good evening.
	This is Ross from Las Vegas listening on KON 720.
	Yes, sir.
	And, uh, Mr. Cox, good evening.
	Good evening.
	Uh, first of all, I want to say thank you for bringing this information out.
	Uh, I am, uh, kind of a junior physicist myself, and the Dean Drive, which has been written about by science fiction writers for years and years and years, has always been said to not work.
	Um, and I'm looking at your website and I'm looking at the diagrams and I've been listening to your talking and I am just absolutely convinced that this is the real deal.
	I guess my main question to you is why has this information not come out any sooner considering that so many, as I said, science fiction writers have been writing about this for so long?
	One of the main problems It was that early in the days of Dean and his effort to get it commercialized, the Air Force expressed an interest in it and he submitted a model to the Air Force for evaluation.
	And what they did is they tested it horizontally on ball bearing wheels and found out that it only vibrated.
	It just vibrated.
	And basically what I have found out in my own research is that it basically doesn't work very well horizontally.
	It's very inefficient.
	And you have to operate it vertically for gravitational load.
	Like in an electrical circuit, if you have a battery, if you want to transfer power from a battery to a load such as a light bulb, that light bulb has to offer a resistive load.
	And if the resistance of the light bulb equals the resistance of the battery, you have maximum power transfer.
	And the Dean Drive is exactly the same.
	It needs a load, a gravitational load, to restrict the amplitude of the oscillator and produce thrust.
	And the Air Force couldn't figure that out.
	So then, if you get the vertical lift, I understand that part and I can see how that works.
	What gives you the horizontal movement?
	Vectoring off from the vertical.
	Okay. In my patent application I show a gravity payload on the bottom, a gimbal mount, and a vertical unit gimbal
	mounted to the heavy load on the bottom.
	And as you vector off from the vertical you develop a component of force horizontally.
	And I've actually demonstrated and videotaped this.
	Uh, a kangaroo hops.
	You put it on ball bearing wheels, it will kangaroo hop horizontally on a smooth table and actually will go up a small incline.
	But it's hopping?
	It's hopping, yeah.
	It's not a linear motion?
	Well, I'm mostly testing a single unit device.
	Right, in other words, he's going to need six.
	You would vector it off from the vertical and it would produce a lateral horizontal thrust.
	Right, okay.
	So, obviously, when it's refined more, then it'll work more like, similar to a Harrier jump jet.
	Pretty much, but with a much, much better performance.
	Wow.
	The thing to produce is 50 pounds of lift per horsepower.
	Oh, that's incredible.
	The whole thing is incredible.
	You know how much a helicopter produces?
	It takes 10 pounds, about 10 pounds per horsepower for a helicopter, so this thing is about 500%.
	Uh, increased performance over a helicopter.
	Over a helicopter.
	Okay, that gives people some idea of what the... You're referring now to the backpack, if it were working today?
	Yes, and incidentally, there's other products, future products that we want to pursue.
	One is called, another one is called the Individual Mobility Unit.
	This is a sit-down version.
	And the engine is under your chair, like you have a chair.
	You have a long rotary engine underneath the chair.
	And then there's a flexible drive.
	And the unit is above your shoulders.
	So the center of lift is above your center of gravity.
	A lot of people, as you can understand, James, would be more comfortable with the chair version.
	Yes.
	And then, of course, the flying car version is a four passenger vehicle.
	Where, where, uh, you have now an aerodynamic body, so that if your engine fails, uh, you can do an aerodynamic descent.
	This is called the inertia craft.
	This is, uh, out five years out into the distance, uh, with ten million dollars is, is what I hope to eventually raise to build a flying car that will replace the automobile.
	Have you talked to any of the flying car people?
	Well, I certainly want to talk to Mueller.
	He was quite capable of understanding the Dean Drive.
	In fact, he's a busy person in his difficult time.
	Very, very busy.
	He's actually getting ready to launch.
	And he might be very fearful of me, of course, being a competitor.
	But boy, does he have the technology.
	He could whiz-bang this thing together in a car easy with what he knows.
	Oh, sure.
	And if the two of you were to get together, it could happen very quickly.
	And plus he knows how to, he's a successful entrepreneur.
	Absolutely.
	A brilliant mind.
	All right, all right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with James Cox.
	Hello.
	How's it going tonight, guys?
	Good, sir.
	Where are you?
	I'm calling from Denver, Colorado.
	Okay.
	I was wanting to start off, first of all, by just letting you know, Art, I love your show.
	This is the greatest show I've ever heard.
	I've just got to compliment you on that.
	Thank you.
	I was just wanting to ask you though, when I ask this I don't mean any disrespect, but just out of curiosity, what would make you want to try to make a backpack like this?
	Is there any certain thing that's happened to you in the past?
	Made you want to try something like this, or?
	Oh yeah, what launched you into the idea of the backpack, James?
	Living in L.A.
	for 20 years.
	I worked at TRW, they're in Badondo Beach.
	I bought a new house on the G.I.
	Bill in Cucamonga.
	Yes, there is a Cucamonga.
	It took me an hour and a half to get to work every day.
	Driving from Cucamonga to Redondo Beach.
	Well, I'm with you. That's a good answer. And that's a you know, you're right.
	In other words, the horrid, horrid commute down there, sitting there, imagining how it could be different.
	That's a good answer, caller.
	And there's another person out there, by the way, a fellow by the name of Dean Kamen, who built something called
	Ginger.
	It.
	Or it. And it's definitely his access to the media by just offering a name.
	I'm going to come out with something called it. Nobody do.
	Maybe you need to have access to the media.
	You need a snappy name.
	And now we know what it is. It's called the Segway.
	And he says it cost him one hundred billion dollars to develop it.
	It goes fifteen.
	Miles per hour, it's a scooter.
	I saw Vice President Cheney.
	Well, it's more than a scooter.
	Yeah, and I tell you, I have a lot of respect.
	He is my role model for the kind of entrepreneur I would love to be.
	Well, there you are though.
	There's your answer.
	The real genesis of this occurred while he was sitting in that endless, horrid Southern
	California commute traffic.
	The California traffic then in the answer, then, huh?
	Yeah, yeah, and it's a good answer.
	Okay, well, thank you.
	Right, thank you.
	That's how a brain begins to germinate an idea.
	You're sitting there going, there has just got to be a better way.
	And maybe you've got it, James.
	Maybe you've got it.
	I hope so.
	And the thing is, it's green technology.
	This is friendly to the environment in terms of the global warming problem.
	Keep in mind that rocket reaction systems, jet engines, Rockets are nothing more than blow torches that are heating the atmosphere up.
	That's right.
	And I don't want to get anybody mad at me, but we need to now, over the next 10 years or so, start the path of transforming our technology over to reactionless propulsion.
	Okay.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with James Cox.
	Good morning.
	Hello?
	Oh, I didn't push the button.
	That damn button.
	All right.
	Welcome to the Rockies.
	Now you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Is that me?
	That's you.
	That's me.
	OK, great.
	Where are you, sir?
	I am in Pullman, Washington.
	OK.
	With WSU, Washington State University.
	Yes, sir.
	I am just amazed by this gentleman, Mr. Cox.
	I'm genuinely impressed.
	Well, thank you very much.
	At least there's one person out there.
	Oh, no.
	Well, there's actually three now.
	There's many more.
	They just can't all get through.
	One thing about your idea is, have you thought maybe a 360 degree design?
	A spherical design?
	Yeah.
	Rather than just two spinning, you know, side by side or whatever.
	Uh, rather make it like a tetrahedron?
	Yeah, which would fit nicely into a flying saucer.
	Exactly.
	Uh, you bet that.
	I didn't want to mention it.
	You said you, you, uh, I'm sorry, but you said you reduced the weight of that, uh, your one experiment by 70 pounds.
	60.
	Oh, 60.
	Okay.
	I thought.
	Was it 60?
	It was almost 50%.
	It weighed 150 pounds, so it was about 70 pounds.
	Okay, 70 pounds.
	Now, once you reduce the weight by 100%, wouldn't it just take a matter of, say, a sneeze to move it in any direction you wanted?
	You're absolutely correct.
	In fact, I built a two-unit system that didn't go to zero, and the thing was sliding off the bath scale.
	I mean, the scale was really zero, and I couldn't keep it on the bath scale.
	It kept sliding off.
	It was just floating on that scale, and it was so close.
	Gotcha.
	Gotcha.
	I think that is just... The problem is the bath scale is not an accurate maintenance system.
	The other thing I need, if I ever get the money, is a A digital storage scope that will integrate the force measurement from the transducer for me.
	Integrate it and give me an average force.
	That is the professional way of measuring this thing.
	Right.
	I think Fluke makes something like that.
	They do.
	That's the latest technology is the digital scopes.
	Yeah.
	Art, you were earlier saying, what would you call this guy?
	Whatever.
	I'd say he's a Brilliant nut.
	He is.
	He's absolutely brilliant.
	A brilliant nut.
	Well, you know what?
	Um, most of the great inventions have come from those that we would probably call brilliant nuts.
	Exactly.
	And that's, that's why I, I am just, I've got goosebumps.
	Well, I appreciate it.
	I've had goosebumps for the last three hours.
	I'm just amazed.
	Yeah, it's awesome.
	Thank you, caller.
	Yeah.
	Take care.
	Uh, do you mind the, uh, the phrase brilliant nut?
	You know, I'm thinking, if you go back a hundred years ago, at the turn of the last century, how many pioneers that we had who made radical transformations in the transformation industry.
	Think of Henry Ford developing the automobile, the Wright brothers developing the airplane,
	and later on during the war, the development of the jet engine
	and Robert Goddard of the liquid fuel rocket.
	All of these happened 100 years.
	And they all came from- And now all these technologies,
	after 100 years have been perfected and are part of our infrastructure.
	And they all came from just a dream.
	And they now deserve another radical transformation as the start of this century.
	James, they all started with just a dream.
	Like somebody sitting in traffic in LA.
	They started with a dream just that way.
	Somebody way back when said, I bet we could navigate through the air somehow.
	But there is a resistance today that these pioneers did not have competition.
	The competition was the horse and buggy.
	Today I face a very heavily powerful forces that do not want me to succeed.
	Have you felt the sting of these forces yet?
	Yes.
	In what way?
	By my being neglected.
	Like many inventors that come up with these technologies, we're being neglected.
	We're falling through the crack.
	And the government doesn't help.
	There's no place to help.
	I know Wayne Green was on here a month ago, and he had a wonderful idea.
	He says every city ought to have an incubator.
	And what a great idea it is.
	And he's a wonderful guy, a wise person.
	Yes, he is.
	Maybe he can push this incubator concept to someplace where I can go and get help.
	Because certainly the economy needs new technology.
	We can transform the transportation industry just as we thought.
	Oh, we need this desperately.
	Look what we did to the information technology revolution in the last ten years.
	The internet, the computer.
	It's time we do the same thing with the transportation industry.
	I think everybody would agree with that.
	I mean, this is a manner of personal transportation that I personally have dreamed of.
	I mean, just dreamed and dreamed and dreamed of it.
	You know what I call this?
	What?
	Especially after 9-11, when we're now scared to get on a 747.
	What do you call it, Shane?
	I call it mobility diversity.
	Mobility diversity.
	If you want to go to the East Coast, right now you only have one choice.
	Take an airplane.
	Yeah, let's talk about how long it would take to get to the East Coast.
	Now listen, hold on.
	Hold on, uh, James Cox is my guest.
	And I have, I've dreamed of this all my life.
	Balloon would be one way, but Mr. Cox has a new way.
	But the effect would be the same.
	It would be flying, folks.
	Personal flying.
	Imagine.
	Hopping away, miles and miles, I've been falling for you.
	I'm glad you have, cause there's magic in my eyes. I can I can see for miles and miles and miles and miles and miles.
	If you think that I don't know about the little bits you make,
	I'm sure you're wrong.
	I can see for miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles.
	If you think that I don't know about the little tricks you play,
	And never see who is deliberately pushing you in my way, Well here's a broke-ass view, you're gonna choke on it too,
	You're gonna lose that smile because of the wild.
	I can see for miles and miles, I can see for miles and miles,
	I can see for miles and miles and miles and miles and miles.
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from Western the Rockies at 1-800-9-1-800.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time cars may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nile.
	You know, perhaps we should have a Dr. Stephen Greer meets James Cox show or something.
	I don't know.
	Incredible stuff!
	My guest is James Cox.
	If you want to know what he's all about, check out my website, then his.
	That'll certainly tell you a great deal.
	Incredible.
	This man is talking about a human backpack that will allow humans to literally defy gravity and fly.
	You'd be able to launch satellites with it.
	You'd be able to move people around the Earth with it, instead of with the current blow torches that we use.
	You made a pretty good point there.
	We'll be right back.
	All right, once again, here is Mr. James Cox.
	Welcome back, James.
	Great to be back.
	This is an interesting fellow.
	Now, here's a commercial airline pilot, commercial pilot, anyway, on our west of the Rockies line.
	What do you fly, sir?
	Oh, hi, I'm sorry.
	Actually, I'm just a flight instructor right now, part-time, and trying to Get my hours built up.
	Okay, well, um, no, but these are aircraft that operate in the blowtorch theory.
	Right.
	Which he explained, which is roughly a kind of a rough analogy, but they're not that rough.
	It's close.
	Uh, what do you think of what, what you've heard tonight?
	Um, I, I, I'm very interested.
	Um, I think it, you know, anything like this is fascinating and would revolutionize space and, I'm a little scared about the idea of having thousands and thousands of people flying at low level.
	I've thought about that myself, yes.
	But I'm looking for more information on it.
	I've gone to his website, and I'm having a hard time finding links to credible documentation explaining the principle behind it.
	Alright, so in other words, James, he's been to your website, but he's complaining that There aren't enough link references for backup information for what you're saying tonight.
	Where would you recommend?
	For the last year, I've been struggling to get a whole new website up, and I've had some partial success.
	The person who was helping me is a retired engineer from General Electric, a software engineer, and he has diabetes, and unfortunately, Uh, he's had, uh, trouble, uh, getting all the work done for me, but I'm, I do, uh, promise to have a website, site out, that's gonna have a lot of information on it.
	There you go, Colin.
	Spectacular website.
	Alright.
	Just, uh, say as a side note, um, I thought it was funny when you were mentioning your crown jewels.
	I, uh, also worked on Aegis Weapon System and... Oh yeah, I worked on the Phalanx, uh, uh, the Vertical Gyro System.
	Okay, alright.
	I work more on the weapon systems for the radar and such.
	Wait a minute, you were at the same company?
	General Dynamics?
	Uh, no, I wasn't.
	I was, um, actually in the Navy and then I was a contractor a little bit for GE.
	Oh, okay.
	And I now work for Space Systems Loral, actually.
	Okay, I can apply at Loral up in, uh, Pelt Alto, I think it was.
	Right, yeah.
	Alright.
	Now, thank you very much, Art.
	Alright, you're very welcome, sir.
	Take care.
	On the first time caller line, you are on the air with James Cox, hi.
	Morning, gentlemen, it's Robert from Los Angeles.
	Yes, sir.
	And, hey, James, uh, did you say you, uh, worked at, uh, let's see, TRW?
	Yes, yes, in Redondo Beach.
	Oh, when was the last time you were there?
	I know people work there.
	Uh, say again?
	When was the last time you were there?
	Uh, uh, I graduated in 73, uh, on a Friday.
	We had a graduation ceremony, uh, B.S.
	He used to be in physics and the following Monday I went to work at TRW in 1973 and I
	was there for until 1985.
	One of the biggest mistakes I made in my life was leaving that company.
	I should have stayed there.
	It was just a wonderful company to work for.
	Just a lot of great people.
	Yeah, so you know Dan Golden?
	I knew Dan Golden at TRW before he took over NASA.
	Yeah, I've worked in defense.
	So you'd know, I'm a Senior Systems Engineer.
	Do you know, uh, Jerry?
	Elbram?
	Excuse me?
	Uh, TRW?
	Yes.
	Jerry Elbram.
	Yeah, right.
	Oh, of course, yeah.
	He's the, uh... He's a friend of mine.
	He's the advanced technology.
	Is he still there?
	That's right.
	Yeah, he's still there.
	Still kicking it.
	He's a 30-year man.
	Yeah, he's real good.
	He protects satellites.
	Yes, I met him at the parties, and, uh... At the new parties.
	He's, uh, one of the founding fathers of the Pinto rocket science.
	That's right.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I worked in the rocket group there.
	The electric propulsion group under Ernie Cohen.
	Yeah, exactly.
	He hired me, and Hayward Sheldon, and, uh...
	Jack, Richard, Jack, hi, I'm Marty Bauer, Jack Hargrove.
	Right, yeah, I worked at, uh, Rocky, uh, uh, F, uh, F-170 stealth radar defense system.
	Uh-huh.
	We took what I did from that, but I have a lot of people in intelligence in the space industry.
	I built the radar defense system for Stealth Fighter.
	Well, listen, do you have any other comments for my guests, sir?
	Yes, sure do, yeah.
	I was going to tell you a way how you could test out your system most effectively.
	Okay.
	You could basically use an ultralight or a glider.
	This way you have a glider, you have a direction where you could actually test and manipulate the fields.
	Yeah, that's a good idea and it could also be remote.
	One of the applications I'm thinking of for the backpack is a remote operated device that could be used to carry loads around without a passenger being on it.
	That's right.
	Well, you want to be safe first.
	So with the glider, you have a certain linear trajectory to deal with, and you could work with the horizontal and the vertical.
	Right, so there'd be no pressure on it.
	It would just be free gliding.
	That's a pretty interesting suggestion.
	That's great.
	And another thing, this is sort of strange, but I've been being in this field for many, many years.
	I've had a lot of people in the Air Force joking about UFOs, technology, this and that.
	Obviously, I've never been into that.
	But I've heard rumors about it, but what you're explaining, your device sounds like a part that I've heard that works in some of the United States' research into building flying discs.
	Are you aware of that?
	You know, I've been going, one of the exercises I've been doing is going through the Majestic 12 documents that the Firmage has funded, the Woods Group, who's an engineer at McDonnell Douglas and a long-time UFO investigator.
	And, uh, I found, uh, evidence, uh, when they went inside the craft, they found something called a- they called it current.
	They found, uh, gears, uh, as part of the machinery inside these, uh, disks.
	And, uh, I'm strongly fearful that they stole my invention, these extraterrestrials.
	They owe me royalty!
	Uh, so it's entirely possible that these crafts that we know as UFOs are... propelled, or...
	Count by exactly what it is we're talking about right now, or some variation of it.
	Yes, yes.
	I think so.
	Okay.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with James Cox.
	Hello.
	Mr. Bell.
	Yes.
	This is the Stardog.
	I just want to say W-G-E-E 1360.
	Yes, sir.
	God love you guys.
	First time caller?
	Yes, sir.
	I am amazed that I got through.
	You know, I just want to let you guys know that I have appreciation for above and beyond the Call of Duty, and you are one.
	Thank you very much.
	There you go, James.
	I just want to say, from one star to another, that I play a lot of frisbee golf, right?
	I play the frisbee, and I get this force that if you put a magnetic field around on the outside, Okay, that would spin on the outside, and if you take a magnetic force and you put it onto the inside, to the opposite direction, would you not get a lift and a propulsion?
	I think any time you break symmetry, asymmetric electric fields, which is the Bifield-Brown effect, And the analog, which would be what you're talking about, the magnetic field, where you break symmetry, you have reduced magnetic field above versus below, is one of the tactics we employ to get propulsion.
	So I think you've got some good ideas there.
	Gee, if you could get it light enough, you could make one hell of a frisbee.
	Couldn't you?
	That's right.
	Of course, the magnets now are generally very heavy, and one of the things that's Limited use of magnetic fields in propulsion is the weight of the magnets.
	The weight of the magnets, of course.
	All right, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with James Cox.
	Good morning.
	Hello?
	Yes, hello.
	Oh my gosh.
	Oh my gosh.
	Yep, there you go.
	My name's Trace.
	I'm 11 years old.
	Okay, 11.
	And where are you?
	In Taiwan, Arkansas.
	Arkansas, where it's got to be like almost 4 in the morning.
	It is.
	And at 11 years old, you're awake, OK?
	Mm-hmm.
	OK.
	Well, I wanted to ask Mr. Koch is, what's the turning radius on his device?
	What is the what radius?
	Turning radius.
	Oh, the turning radius on the device.
	That's good.
	The rotor itself is three inches.
	What I found out is that smaller radius is the way to go.
	It's more efficient design.
	Why?
	Because of the fact that the power required to drive the rotor increases with the square of the moment of inertia, which is r squared.
	And so increasing radius has a really strong thirst for power.
	Is there a linear increase in the ability of the device to produce I'm sorry, I'm going to use the word lift to produce lift.
	In other words, do you get a linear gain, or do you not get a linear gain?
	Actually, it's non-linear.
	It's not a bell-shaped curve, but there's a hump.
	It pops out at a certain speed where, depending on what kind of motor you're using, it runs out of torque at a certain speed because the rotor itself demands power as a cube of speed.
	Whereas the motor, like an electric motor, has a descending torque curve.
	So where they cross is the point where you run out of thrust because the motor doesn't have enough torque.
	Gotcha.
	West of the Rockies, you are on the air with James Cox.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	This is Curtis in San Diego.
	Yes, sir.
	Hi, I had a couple questions about the actual physics.
	Maybe, I'm not sure, I tried to look on your website, but I'm trying to figure out what the, if you have any calculations actually, Um, done on, like, maybe a Hamiltonian, or... Yeah, here's, uh, because I hear you sound like a physics guy, or an engineer.
	Uh, the problem with it is you do the Lagrangian on the oscillator, is this typically, uh, how they analyze it.
	The problem with the Lagrangian is it did not incorporate the Coriolis force.
	LaGrange died in 1813.
	He was mostly a theoretical mathematician.
	And Coriolis published his research in 1835, almost 20 years after the death of LaGrange.
	So the physics analysis that's in the textbook actually needs to be corrected for the Coriolis effect, and it's giving the wrong answer, which is why we don't have the dendrite.
	Hmm, interesting.
	The other thing I wanted to ask is, have you heard of the NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project?
	Absolutely, Mark Millis is heading that up in Glenn Research.
	Okay, did you submit to that or are you going to?
	I have published papers in field propulsion.
	I had one published in Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets, which is the trade journal of the propulsion field back in the early 80s.
	And it's a lot of work to get a paper published and it didn't seem like the reward for all the effort other than something to put on my resume was there so I kind of gave up publishing papers.
	There are some, actually I think they actually picked two things that actually got funded for checking.
	I don't have details on them.
	I think we should not forget to mention tonight is that Dr. Polotkov rushed in the temporary experiment.
	That is still going on and I understand that Dr. Coxor at Marshall Space Flight Center has given $600,000 to hopefully verify... Well, that's kind of edging toward what you're doing anyway, isn't it?
	Oh, this is true gravity shielding is what he's doing.
	If they pull this off, and I visited with them... No, I understand, but I mean, if this is investigated and if they proceed with this, they would probably eventually move toward From where they are, it would be a logical step to move toward your understanding of the technology, wouldn't it?
	I think we would be competing with each other in a marketplace in which he would offer certain advantages that my system would not offer.
	Of course, he has to use superconductors and spin the thing, but my system has a clutching system in it.
	It has unbalanced weights.
	He, uh, it's conceivable that he could come up with a better system than mine.
	Are we liable to see you, um, just, I mean, you're 58 years old.
	Uh, how many years do you think you have left, uh, uh, during which you would finally be willing to say, test something like this yourself?
	I mean, get into it after you've done the appropriate tests and just go.
	Well, you know, I would love to go into space, and that's what you're talking about.
	Well, no, I didn't mean that, but if you want to answer, fine.
	That would be certainly something.
	The flying car, which is the five-year, the endgame of after five years and a hundred million dollars, Uh, dude, it would not be that much more difficult to hermetically seal that flying car.
	I call it an inertia craft vehicle.
	And go to space.
	With an oxygen tank, I might even win the X Prize, which is $10 million.
	You might.
	If somebody hasn't won it already.
	No, no, I believe it's still available.
	Yeah, and, uh, so I think I have a good shot at, uh, getting $10 million at the same time going into space.
	And I wouldn't have any problem meeting their requirements.
	What they're saying is you have to do is you have to come back and then two weeks, within two weeks, take three men back up to 100 kilometers or 62 miles.
	That's the requirement.
	I don't think I'd have any problem.
	I don't think you would either.
	I mean, how long would it take you to reach that kind of altitude?
	Oh, gosh, at 1G, if I go up 1G, just a matter of a few minutes.
	A few minutes, so you could do it and be right back down safely before you could finish a good sandwich.
	And the check would be waiting for me.
	Is that a challenge you might take up?
	A lot of the contestants in the X Prize, there's 20 of them, if you go to their website, and you may even want to have a guest on there to give us an update on what the heck's going on with them.
	Yes.
	Is there mostly rocket plane type concepts and I heard that there were some secret requirement that they would not allow anti-gravity technology to participate.
	Okay, James, listen, we're short on time.
	There's something I want you to do right now.
	Okay.
	Very slowly because there may be people out there willing to fund you.
	Give us your email address again, please.
	It's bootstrapcox at yahoo.com.
	Bootstrap Cox.
	You're an incredible person, James.
	Well, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to talk.
	I sure enjoyed it, and it was much easier than I thought.
	I was a little bit nervous, but, uh... Ah, it's nothing.
	As I just listened to your questions, you kind of, uh, took me right through easy.
	Bless your heart.
	James, we're going to have you back on again.
	Trust in that, all right?
	All right, we'll be flying.
	Good night.
	Flying indeed.
	Good night, my friend.
	That's James Cox.
	Crazy or crazy like a fox?
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.

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