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April 2, 2002 - Art Bell

02:46:00

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Gary Schwartz - Proof of Life on the Other Side

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	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good
	morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in all 24 time zones covered by this program,
	which is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm Art Bell, and it is great to be here this morning.
	I am going to do something Tonight, that I promised I would do, I don't know, a week or two ago, something like that.
	Somebody called up and talked about the man who had attached balloons to his lawn chair and thought it was a big old urban legend-type deal.
	Well, it isn't, and I have historic audio to prove it.
	This is the wildest story you've ever heard.
	Larry Walters and his launcher hit the mainstream press, and then it sort of went away and got buried and returned as an urban legend.
	It is not an urban legend.
	Nobody ever knew any evidence existed, but it does.
	I've got it, and tonight you're going to hear it.
	In the next hour, Dr. Gary F. Schwartz is going to be here talking about proof of life on the other side.
	He is a Harvard psychiatrist type.
	Really, really interesting.
	So, all of that's going on.
	Welcome to the big one, up in Kalispell, Montana.
	KOFI, as we jump across KOFI.
	1180 on the dial, and during the day, 50,000 watts.
	At night, a respectable 10,000 watts.
	It ought to just sort of rage across Montana and western states.
	GM Dave Ray, PD Scott Davis, thank you both very much.
	Welcome to the weirdest radio show on the planet.
	So, if everybody will stay put, coming up in a moment... Boy, do I have... Well, no, I don't have a tail for you.
	I have proof for you.
	Alright?
	You know, I...
	Everybody did think it was an urban legend.
	Coming up in just a moment, one of the most remarkable pieces of audio you're ever going to hear in your whole life.
	I'll tell you more about it in a second.
	Listen, I'm well aware that our website is approaching 100 million hits.
	Truly a historic number.
	And in view of my age, we'll never hit it again.
	We call them encounters.
	Our website only counts main page hits, and it stands, as I just clicked, at 99,792,978.
	at 99,792,978.
	So we have concocted a special screen that will pop up for the 100th million,
	or the 100, 100 millionth visitor with a special magic key word so we know who you are.
	What we're going to do for you, I don't know.
	Maybe I'll talk to you on the air.
	Maybe we'll send you something or another.
	Certainly, your name is going to get on the air as probably the one and only 100 millionth visitor.
	Can you imagine?
	A lot of hits to a website, baby.
	That's a lot of hits.
	All right.
	Well, anyway, here it comes.
	You've never heard anything like this in your life.
	If you have a recorder, I urge you to roll it about right now.
	And what you are about to hear is the, not the urban legend, but the true story of what a man named Larry Walters did.
	He hooked up balloons to his lawn chair and, oh boy, did he go flying.
	And I just, I would not have believed it until one day a man got hold of me and said that he had the documentation in the form of two-way radio communications that went on between this man And his wife on the ground, and authorities on the ground, and all the rest of this.
	And it was a true mind blower, and I've meant for a long time to repeat it, so tonight I'm going to do so.
	So, at the network, if you would please, segment number one, roll it.
	My guest on at the last minute is Mark Berry.
	Mark, welcome to the program.
	Well, welcome.
	Thank you.
	I'm in Houston, Texas, and glad to be on your show.
	Houston, huh?
	Alright, how did, first of all, most people as I've said, you know I've read the story of Larry Walters to my audience a couple of times, the man who attached balloons to his wheelchair, or wheelchair, lawn chair, but a lot of people, I think, don't believe it's a real story for starters.
	How did you get onto this, and it is a real story, isn't it?
	It is, and for those who are not familiar with the lawn chair pilot, you know, when we explain this Incredible, controversial story.
	Most of your listeners probably will not believe what we're about to tell them.
	I mean, it's just a crazy story, but I'll give you a little history.
	The reason why I put together and dedicated some research on a website for Larry Walters was a few years ago, I had an aviation website and I kind of stuck an article on there about Larry Walters.
	Next thing I knew, I was getting a bunch of emails from people from all over the world Basically saying, oh, come on, this is one of those urban legends and, you know, this is not true.
	Well, it does sound like one.
	Of course, but it was documented in many newspapers and magazines and so on.
	And so after I started getting all these emails, I decided to do a little research and found out that there was an audio file from a TV organization out in California called React.
	And their non-profit organization that basically monitors the TV community.
	And they just happened to be recording what was going on back in 1982.
	And so they had this audio file.
	Well, they had never let anybody do anything with it.
	When I told them that I had been in communication with Larry's family and that I had done extensive
	research and I was doing this out of respect for Larry and his family, I was not doing
	anything to make Larry look like a psycho.
	He was a very professional man.
	I say that in past tense because he has passed away.
	They agreed to let me take the audio file and turn it into digital audio.
	video audio healing now for my website ok let's even Even now, people still kind of have a little hard time believing it's true, but it's true.
	Before the hour's out, we will give the website URL, but I don't want to do it right now.
	That's fine.
	It'll crash your site.
	That's okay, that's a good problem.
	You'll learn where your limits are.
	I'm sure I'll hear from ISB tomorrow.
	You know, first of all, I don't think what he did, and this may be a comment on me, but I don't think what he did was so crazy.
	I've had the dream All my life of flight.
	Broke my arm trying to hang glide.
	Actually crashing is when I broke my arm.
	But I've had this dream all my life and so...
	I kind of think what he did was neat.
	Really neat, really.
	And what do you know about his motivation?
	Do you know anything at all about what he was thinking when he lashed all this together?
	Yeah, and that's a very good point, because I was thinking about that right before the show this evening, that everybody has some type of fantasy, and a lot of us guys have this fantasy of doing something crazy like going out and flying a balloon or something, and Larry He did what a lot of us just haven't done, and he actually went out and did it.
	To answer your question, Larry, from what I know, from my research, he attempted to join the Air Force and could not get in for, I believe, reasons of poor vision.
	He said as a child he would watch these airplanes go over his house all the time, so he decided one day he was going to Build his own craft, and that was his inspiration.
	But his craft, of course, was his lawn chair.
	His lawn chair and some weather balloons.
	And some weather balloons.
	A little unorthodox.
	I've often wondered how many weather balloons it would take to lift a lawn chair.
	Well, we know it took 40, 35 or 40 to get him up.
	Really?
	Yes, but that shot him up pretty quick.
	Um, in other words, he, uh, what, off the ground?
	Oh, yeah, he, he sailed so quick that he lost his glasses on launch.
	Oh, my.
	And went up to 16,000 feet before leveling off.
	This would be a few balloons too many.
	Yeah, I'd say so, but, uh... See, my dream was always to sort of Hover maybe 100 feet above the trees or something like 50 feet above the tree level.
	Something like that.
	Those are his intentions.
	In fact, if you read my website, it talks exactly about that.
	His plan was to lazily float around the LA area.
	Oh, I meant to ask you that.
	Where was Larry?
	Larry was in a suburb outside of Los Angeles when this whole thing occurred.
	Now, I'm not a big expert on on on on airports but I know LAX is really really controlled airspace.
	Oh yeah.
	Along with Chicago, you know O'Hare and Kennedy and some of the other big ones.
	They're really severely controlled.
	And so they get really nervous when they see things like lawn chairs going to that sort of altitude.
	Well I'm a pilot myself and I know that there are many rules and regulations you have to follow to the T. And if you do just the slightest thing wrong in airspace, especially around LAX, you're going to hear about it.
	And so Larry really did some things wrong.
	In fact... Have you thought of all this before?
	Um, had he?
	Of course.
	In other words, the fact that he was, uh, he was going to be in LAX airspace.
	Absolutely.
	In fact, he had, um, his ground crew had notified the FAA authorities and told them what was going on at the launch.
	He couldn't do it beforehand because they would stop him.
	But wait a minute, he had a ground crew?
	Oh yes.
	Yeah.
	In fact, what's really funny, what you're hearing on the tape is, Um, uh, is, uh, the, uh, the authorities were contacting him and they kept asking, what airport did you take off from?
	And they're like, we didn't take off from an airport.
	We took off at my girlfriend's house.
	So they're trying to get a little idea of what's going on here.
	Okay.
	So then the communication, uh, at least at the beginning was, I take it between Larry in the chair and his girlfriend?
	Yes, there's several characters involved.
	Larry Walters is the lawn chair pilot, as we refer to him.
	Carol is Larry's girlfriend.
	She dominates the conversation.
	She's basically freaking out on the audio tape because things didn't start out very well because he prematurely launched before, and then you'll hear the ground crew.
	There's a gentleman named Ron Richland, and they're based at Carol's house, and then you'll hear the authorities.
	One thing I will say, you get your audience to imagine that you've got a guy in a lawn chair with these 40 helium balloons, probably going up 100 plus feet above the lawn chair.
	It's an incredible sight.
	He's floating over LAX.
	Wait a minute, his 40 helium balloons were how far above him?
	I would say close to 100 feet above him.
	Wow!
	Yeah, if you look at the photos on the website, you'll see The picture's taking during and before flight.
	So you've got this guy.
	He's got a balloon.
	He's got a gun in his hand because... What kind of gun?
	Well, I think it was a BB or a pellet gun because his intentions was to shoot the balloons one at a time so he can defend.
	And so you've got this guy with the sodas, the sandwiches, you've got a gun, and he's prepared.
	So he even brought a second pair of glasses, which he did need because he lost the first pair when he launched.
	He drifted over LAX, okay, and a TWA pilot spots him.
	And you can imagine the conversation that went on in the cockpit.
	And so what was reported was the TWA pilot reports to LAX saying, LAX, we've got a guy up here in a lawn chair and balloons, and he's got a gun.
	And so, it's like... You want to repeat that?
	Good powers of observation on the part of a pilot who must have been passing the lawn chair fairly quickly.
	Exactly.
	So you can imagine if they wanted to report that or not.
	He caused quite a bit of trouble with the FAA at that time.
	They went crazy.
	Did Larry manage... Well, first of all, he assumed what would happen.
	Do you know offhand?
	He must have had a plan.
	In other words, he thought these balloons would take him how high?
	Oh, he only wanted to lift off a couple hundred feet, like you said, and he had no intentions on going over LAX, nor did he plan on shooting up to 16,000 feet.
	Now, at 16,000 feet... There's oxygen.
	Well, there is oxygen, but not very much.
	Above about 12,000 or 13,000 feet, when I was in the Air Force, we put on masks.
	Right, and that's the way it is today in the civilian world as well.
	At 16,000 feet, you do have enough, but you'll start feeling kind of wheezy.
	But he wasn't up there for that long.
	He went up and down.
	In fact, when you listen to the audio tape, you'll hear him reporting his altitude.
	One time he's at 8, next time he's at 6, next time he's at 10,000.
	How did he know how high he was?
	I believe he had an altimeter with him.
	I see.
	He was prepared.
	It sounds like it.
	What was his girlfriend's attitude about this?
	Well, she was, him and Carol, Larry and Carol, planned this in quite detail.
	They had the maps out.
	I've got photos of them laying out everything.
	And they went over everything with a fine tooth comb.
	And she was really into it.
	And I think his friend didn't think he was going to do it, but Larry was determined And it's just an incredible story.
	There's not too many people who would plan and then actually execute something like this.
	They would dream of it, but to actually get right down there in the pits and start filling the balloons and all the rest of that, there's not too many people.
	And that's why Larry is seen as the hero to many people.
	I've gotten emails from people in Europe that said, you know, there is actually a lawn chair balloon now that they have over in Europe where there's several little balloons Strapped to a lawn chair.
	And they're selling them like hotcakes over there.
	They just think Larry is the greatest inspiration to many of us.
	Now, how did he get back down?
	Did he manage to, in fact, shoot the balloons one by one?
	That's a great question.
	What you're not going to hear on the tape is the dissent, and I'll tell you what happens.
	Larry is now descending.
	He realizes he's endangering himself, and so he starts shooting these balloons.
	The story goes, and this is what his sister had told me over the phone, when I talked to her, that Larry's descending and he's going over this suburb of L.A., and he's going over this old man's yard, and this old man is in the backyard reading the newspaper on a lawn chair.
	He looks up, and here comes Larry, and here comes Larry, boom, right in front of him.
	What happened to Larry?
	So in other words, his plan did work then.
	He was descending at a good slow rate if you could sort of drift over this guy's yard and then plop down.
	Yeah, he landed safely and he was surrounded by kids and the kids took the lawn chair from him and he said to this day he regrets it because he said the Smithsonian wanted to The lawn chair.
	I'm astounded that there's any audio of this.
	I had no idea such a thing existed, and that'll be most of the country as well.
	They'll be all hearing this for the very first time.
	Apparently it's not out much elsewhere, is it?
	Well, no, it is not anywhere.
	In fact, I've been given exclusive rights to I post this on my personal website, and nobody has done it before, and I'm the only one who's been allowed to do that, because I've done it.
	I've done a lot of research.
	I've done it all in good taste for Larry's memory and his family, and there are some big fans of Larry Walters who are quite familiar with this audio tape, but there are many people who don't even know the story.
	I'm kind of one of them.
	The authorities, I take it, after the children, the authorities probably found Larry.
	I'm sorry, what was that?
	I said after the children took the launcher, I assume the authorities found Larry.
	Yeah, they found him quite quick, and at first the FAA didn't know what he had done.
	They knew he had done something wrong.
	They knew he had violated some rules, but they actually could not do anything to him until they figured out.
	And he was fined, but it really wasn't that big of a deal, and later he went on a little touring circuit.
	Went on David Letterman.
	I would imagine even the FAA would have some bit of sense of humor about this.
	Yeah, I think privately they snickered about it and, you know, we did what they had to do because, well, that's the FAA.
	All right, so coming up after the break at the bottom of the hour, you're going to hear what nobody else has ever heard.
	The actual voice of Larry Walters and his girlfriend and others as he did what he said he was going to do up in a lawn chair.
	I'm Art Bell, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Alright, so we're back live, and if that was part number one.
	Part number two is the compelling, incredible, actual evidence, the audio evidence of this flight, and you're going to want to listen very carefully to the wife, who is, you know, like totally freaking out, even though she helped plan this for Larry.
	Now, I should also tell you, I'm working on a guest right now who makes some pretty wild claims.
	He claims... Now, he's got this contraption.
	That I'm not sure about yet.
	I'm not sure about it at all.
	Using a Briggs & Stratton engine, and he apparently doesn't have a large enough engine to power a man, but he claims that just a little bit bigger Briggs & Stratton engine and this device would provide personal flight.
	You know, like a, it would be a backpack kind of deal.
	And you know me, I'm absolutely riveted, fascinated with all of this sort of thing.
	And so, I may pursue him as a guest.
	I'm not sure yet.
	I may pursue him as a guest.
	At any rate, I will continue to pursue these stories.
	And if you have not yet turned on your tape recorder, you should have, you know, for the background that I just gave you in the first segment.
	Then you're going to want to get it on during the break, because I'm telling you folks, this audio is just, it's beyond anything you've ever heard in your whole life.
	So, crack out a tape recorder and you'll have a little bit of history by the time the hour is over.
	At any rate, this half hour is over, and when we get back, we'll go right into the audio of what Larry Walters did the actual communications by radio.
	Of course, I can see the real happiness When you sharply took me out of my world I woke up Suddenly I just woke up To the happiness When you find that you left the future behind But when you've got a tender love you don't take care of Then you better beware of the happiness
	One day you're up, one day you're up, when you turn around, when you turn around, you'll find your world, you'll find
	your world, it's coming down, it's coming down, it happened to me, and it can happen to you.
	I wish I had...
	🎵 I'm a beautiful blue, sweet blue... 🎵 We could float among the stars together, you and I. For we can fly!
	For we can fly, up and away, my little boat, my little boat, we are new.
	To reach Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, dial 1.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
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	800-893-0903. This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	Once again, here we go.
	Here comes Mark Berry.
	Mark, are you there?
	I am here.
	OK, so where we hear this tape begin is when?
	Well, what you're about to hear is the actual conversations between Larry Walters, his ground crew, and the local and federal authorities.
	And the tape begins right after liftoff.
	Now, keep in mind, he had tied his lawn chair to the bumper of his Jeep.
	And, uh, there was a picture taken right before he took off.
	But what happened was, uh, he took off, uh, prematurely.
	The lines broke.
	And so, the first thing you're going to hear is, uh, is that he lost his glasses and his girlfriend, Carol, is freaking out.
	Everything started off really bad.
	And so, that's where you're going to, uh, that's where we're going to start the tape.
	And it's going to go about 12, 14 minutes.
	Sounds like he had about 20 balloons too many and he took off like a rocket.
	He did, he did.
	There's a little error on his calculations, but for the most part, it's an exciting tape to listen to.
	Alright, so, okay folks, here we go.
	Can you read me anyone?
	We're on. It's great. Can you read me? Over.
	Ron, no, I can hear you!
	Okay, evidently I lost my glasses.
	Ron, come down!
	You gotta come down if you can't see!
	Come down!
	I've got my other glasses.
	I can see perfectly.
	Don't worry.
	Is everything okay?
	Everything's A-OK.
	All the proper authorities, etc.
	Huh.
	Do you copy?
	Over.
	I copy.
	Are you sure you're okay?
	There's trees up there.
	We can hear them.
	Are you okay?
	I'm A-OK.
	I'm going through a thin fog layer.
	Over.
	Okay, keep talking, Larry.
	We can't see you.
	We hear airplanes.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I'm okay.
	I'm rising.
	My altitude's 1,500 feet.
	No, you're heading for the ocean.
	You do not want to go to the ocean, Toby.
	You're going to have to come down soon.
	Listen to me, I'm coming over the fog.
	Over.
	Why don't you get over the fog and if you're heading towards the ocean, are you going to go or are you going to land?
	I'll land.
	Don't worry.
	You're going to land.
	Let us know already so we can come pick you up.
	We're exactly where you are.
	Will do.
	Over.
	Mary?
	Who's talking?
	Yeah, I'm okay.
	Everything's fine.
	Can you see yet?
	Are you in clear skies?
	I'm in clear blue skies.
	So you can see perfectly.
	Everything's clear.
	Okay.
	Everything's clear over.
	Are you heading towards the ocean still or have you gotten a better look?
	I'm headed towards, uh, I can see Marine Land right now.
	Oh, you can see Marine Land, so you're heading towards... Oh my God, you're going towards the ocean already!
	Okay, have you crawled up?
	Have you... Okay, have you, have you, um... If you get towards the ocean, land over by Marine Land.
	Wait, I'm stuck.
	Are you okay?
	I'm making a turn, I'm going inland.
	Notify LAX, over.
	What's your altitude right now?
	What's your altitude?
	2,300 feet.
	2,300.
	2,300.
	We can see your, we can see your clusters.
	We can't see you, but we see your clusters.
	Okay.
	Notify, is someone notifying LAX?
	They're notifying LAX.
	Mary, talk again.
	Elevation 2,500.
	up in 500. Everything's a There's houses.
	It's unsafe.
	If I get to a safe terrain, yes.
	Everyone wants you down now, can you please?
	It would be unsafe.
	There's houses, it's unsafe.
	If I get to a safe terrain, yes.
	He says if he gets to a safe terrain he will, but now he's come down and found the houses and needs a flat land.
	Okay, if you have any flat land, please tell us where you are and come down immediately.
	Please, can you hear me?
	Yes, I can read you over.
	You have to keep talking.
	I mean, just constantly talk for me when we stop.
	Larry, what's under you right now?
	Okay, I can... I'm moving away from marine life, from, uh, palace birdies or whatever.
	Uh, I'm moving away from the tower.
	And what's directly under me is fog.
	And I can see the ocean, but I am moving slightly away from it.
	So I'm picking up an easterly wind current.
	Over.
	Okay.
	As soon as you get a little level terrain, come around and start descending.
	Jerry, what direction are you headed right now?
	We're on the airport right now.
	I am headed north, north slightly east.
	We can see your balloons, but not you.
	You're over... You're like north of our house right now.
	Can you try to find some kind of... Do you see anything below you, or is it all fog?
	Negative.
	I'm over residential areas.
	Over.
	Okay, you must be over Palos Verdes.
	What directions are you heading right now?
	Uh... Let's see.
	I'm east of Palos Verdes.
	Uh... I'm more or less just kind of...
	Right now I'm just in mobile.
	I'm kind of stabilized right here.
	You're moving.
	You're just in one spot.
	You're right over us.
	We can see you.
	So you've got to be... You have to be kind of north... You're a little north of our house right here.
	Over... North house 30 is north of our house.
	Can you see anything besides just houses only below... Has the airport been notified of our... Drive forward.
	They need a lot of questions.
	Okay, just keep throwing up your directions when you move and it's up to your operator every time you change.
	Roll through over.
	We can see you now.
	We see you right over north of us.
	We can see the whole craft.
	You look like you're moving south towards San Pedro.
	If I wanted to come down to it, it would be very hazardous, even if I wanted to.
	Uh, there are houses, there are open fields, over.
	There's no open fields, only houses?
	Okay, if you keep coming this way, we're heading this way.
	If you slowly release the balloons, they can track you with the truck and they can help you, the people down here can help you come down safely in the city.
	Can you hear me?
	Over.
	Yes, I can hear you, over.
	Well, you try to come down, it's moving, and you can always, if you start coming down and it's not working, you can always kind of go up a little bit if you get kind of too fast down, but they're going to try to track you.
	My altitude's 4,750 feet.
	All systems are normal here.
	We're coming down to the San Pedro area now.
	But I can't promise you what there is.
	There's so many... What?
	How many roads are there, Mary?
	Forty-four?
	I believe forty-four, yeah.
	Thirty-two, I think.
	Or thirty-four.
	I don't remember.
	What's the difference?
	Okay.
	Thirty-two.
	Over.
	Keep talking.
	Altitude 5000 feet.
	Can you cut a few so you can cut down a little more?
	And then so you can track it?
	Over.
	over. It'd be very hazardous as I did right now. Over. We got your glasses, did we? We got your glasses and they're
	okay. Nothing's wrong with your glasses down here. Over.
	Well, that's good news. Good news is here. Good news will be when you land. Could you please... Oh, we can see you
	over here, Carly, right over us now. Try to... Try to...
	Can you see me? Can you see us down here? Over. Oh, wow.
	Directly over you?
	You're coming and you're going to be directly over us, and in about a minute or two, you can look down and see if you can see us.
	Over.
	Okay, I'll be looking for you.
	We can only see your balloons, but maybe when you get over, you're going to go into a blue sky.
	Can you see us down there?
	Can you see us?
	Over.
	Carol, I'm almost 6,000 feet over.
	I can't see much of anything except for a lot of houses.
	Over.
	When you look at your houses now, you're looking at our house.
	You're looking at my house right now.
	Over.
	Can you hear me?
	You're over our house.
	It's after here now.
	Over.
	Mary, can you hear me?
	Are you enjoying it?
	Over.
	Mary, can you hear me?
	Over.
	Okay, let's, uh, switch to channel 14.
	Over.
	All righty.
	KLW, 901-602, this is Tony Aguriak, KBW-8882, unit 66.
	Sir, have you identified your location at this time?
	Um, I cannot.
	This is Naniaga React, KBW 8882 unit 66, sir, have you identified your location at this time?
	I cannot, from my altitude, which is approximately 13,000 feet, I'm over an airport, I think it's Long Beach Airport.
	Over.
	They can have me on radar.
	Over.
	Roger.
	What kind of assistance can I obtain for you?
	The station isn't quite what it seems, Jeff.
	And also, landline, radio, telephone.
	Well, I'm going to a gradual descent.
	And we're on the descent.
	I don't know.
	And, uh, I can see a few... I believe I see the interchange of the...
	I can see the parts of Los Angeles.
	I can see a freeway, which is probably a 405, so that would make it to Longstreet Freeway.
	I mean, that's the, uh... I won't be careful.
	Over.
	KLW 911602, say again your point of departure.
	My point departure was 1633 West 7th Street, San Pedro.
	Okay.
	Sheriff, if you're a 13,000 in the air, what airport did you take off from?
	Uh, this is TOW.
	I want to talk to him.
	I'm having difficulty picking up your signal.
	Over.
	Could you please repeat?
	TOW, 9-0-1-6-0-2.
	Do you have 5-man capability?
	Uh, I'm talking with a 5-watt portable, uh, easy, uh, handheld unit.
	Over.
	Breaking into conversation.
	This is...
	T-R-R-9-1-4-0-5, Ground Control.
	Am I being copied, over?
	The closest airport would be... T-R-E-D-T-E-M-I-N-I-T-E.
	at the closest airport would be... we are determined at...
	at the closest airport would be closest to my departure.
	Mr. Bell.
	Yes.
	I'm going to stop it right there and I'll let listeners listen to the rest of it.
	I'm afraid it's getting hard to listen, because he's going out of range there with the CB, but if they want to listen to it, they're welcome to go to my website.
	There's about three or four more minutes there as he's talking with those agencies, but it's getting out of range.
	Yeah, they just couldn't get it through their heads, could they?
	No.
	That he didn't take off from any airport, and he's sitting up there in his lawn chair trying to figure out The closest airport he could name that would make them happy.
	And they're going, OK, what kind of avionics do you have?
	Do you have this type of frequency?
	And he's like, no, you don't understand.
	I've got a CB in my hand.
	And he goes, well, what's the color of your balloon?
	He goes, it's not a balloon, sir.
	It's multiple balloons.
	He goes, are you telling me?
	And he goes on and on and on.
	And so it's just hilarious.
	Um, actually, uh, why don't you go ahead and let us hear about the last two or three minutes of it.
	Okay, is it sound okay?
	Yeah, I can hear it.
	I'll hold my phone up to the speaker here.
	No, no, I can hear it fine.
	You go right ahead.
	Okay, I'll play a couple more minutes.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	Okay.
	Can you give me the name of the airport?
	Port.
	Port, airport.
	Roger, that's Port.
	So, can you give me the direction of your trip?
	In the, where the law goes?
	How is it, uh, JLW-99602?
	Is it... I can make out a patch.
	I can make out what appears to be a cluster of maybe about twelve, maybe, like, oil storage tanks.
	Over.
	Roger, sir.
	And what is the direction of your drift?
	North, east, south, west.
	Right now, I'm going approximately, uh... well, trans-west.
	Roger, sir, that's northwest.
	That's correct, northwest.
	I still have you on voice contact, sir.
	You have a crew on the ground that is prepared to assist you at this time.
	This is the ground crew.
	Can anybody copy?
	I am KRR 9-1-4-0-5.
	Over.
	Could you please repeat?
	This is KRR 9-1-4-0-5 on the ground at the launch point.
	Do you copy?
	2-3-8-4-4.
	Roger, sir.
	Is that a 2-1-3 or anything?
	Yes, sir.
	What information can I disseminate to that telephone number at this time?
	That's the computer, Pete.
	What information do you wish me to tell them at this time and to your location in your difficulty?
	Uh, the difficulty is, uh, this is an unauthorized balloon launch.
	And, uh, I'm sorry, I know I'm interfering with federal airspace.
	And, uh, I'm sure my ground crew has a list of proper authorities.
	But, uh, just to call them and tell them that I'm okay.
	All right, uh, that, uh, is, uh, a stand-by to frequency.
	I'll stay on the frequency, over.
	Okay.
	So he just wanted everybody notified that he's an unauthorized balloon launch.
	Right.
	And let him know I'm okay.
	And how long from that point until he drifted over this other fellow sitting in his lawn chair who looked up and saw Larry drifting along?
	Oh, I think it went on for another hour or more even.
	I don't know the exact time.
	But you know what amazes me is his calmness.
	In the whole thing, here his ground crew is freaking out.
	Nothing is going right, and he's just enjoying the view.
	Yeah, his girlfriend was really losing it there.
	Oh yeah, she's just freaking out.
	And it's for his safety.
	She's concerned about his safety.
	Of course.
	You know what's funny too, is Larry took a camera with him, and he was so into the view, he never took any pictures.
	Oh, no, really?
	But at least the ground crew got photos.
	There's a few photos on my website that shows right before he launched and right after he launched.
	All right, we have now put up a link, so prepare to test your bandwidth.
	But on my site, for those who want to know how to find it.
	We're just a humble little website, just a little personal website I put together.
	guest info and there you will see now in the ten o'clock position
	the name mark and you will see larry walters launcher trip audio
	recordings and website
	uh... link is right there so we'll see now how well your website holds up
	and we're not the humble little website just a little purple up but i put
	together it's nothing professional but uh...
	you know if they can't get to it tonight uh... then just they can check back the
	That's right, they can try tomorrow or something.
	Anyway, all turned out well, at least in the short run, for Larry.
	He had to pay a fine, but I take it he didn't do any jail time?
	No, in fact, not that I know of, but he did get a lot of publicity.
	He went on a tour, he went on David Letterman, he went on The Tonight Show, he did Timex commercials.
	I bet they never had this audio, though.
	Not that I know of.
	React was very possessive of that audio tape.
	And as far as I know, you just did the exclusive on National Radio.
	Well, I'm glad that it exists.
	And now, from now on, when people tell this story or hear this story, at least my listeners will be there to say, hey, I know it's real.
	I heard it.
	Right.
	Now, what's his family's attitude?
	He, of course, has passed away since.
	Is his family still contacted about this?
	You know, I don't know that.
	I know when I contacted them, they were a little bit reluctant, but they were the nicest people I've ever spoke with.
	They gave me plenty of information.
	They wanted to make sure that what I was doing was nothing negative, which it wasn't.
	No, of course not.
	Yeah, and I was letting people know, hey, this is not a myth.
	And there were a lot of myths out there about he was some psycho.
	And my website says this guy was not a psycho.
	He was a professional.
	He worked for the movie studios.
	Oh, he did?
	Oh, yeah.
	He did some kind of delivery.
	Uh, with the films or something like that, but he's a very professional guy and, uh, you can tell by just listening to him that the guy was, was, uh, just had everything planned out.
	And very organized, and he never ever did this for the publicity.
	He never did it for anything like that.
	He just did it to fulfill a dream.
	No, I think that was obvious.
	I mean, they would have had the media right there, and they didn't.
	All they wanted to do was make sure the authorities were notified and that he could find himself a safe place to land, is what it sounded like to me.
	Exactly.
	And you can tell he wasn't really in a hurry to get down.
	He was enjoying the view.
	How was his landing, by the way?
	Like I said, it was pretty nominal.
	He came down in that guy's backyard and landed pretty safely.
	When they interviewed him later, they said, Larry, why'd you do it?
	He said, you know, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
	That's the story of Larry Walters.
	That's the actual audio.
	Pretty historical, in my opinion.
	Pretty historical stuff.
	And I think Larry Walters is absolutely a hero in my book.
	My kind of guy.
	We'll be right back with Dr. Gary Schwartz.
	Lady Bird, come on down.
	I'm here waiting on the ground.
	Lady Bird, I'll treat you good.
	Ah, Lady Bird, I wish you would do.
	Lady Bird.
	Pretty Lady Bird.
	Pretty lady bird Destiny
	I will follow him Ever since he touched my heart I knew
	There isn't an ocean too deep A mountain so high it can't keep
	Keep me away Away from him
	I love it!
	And where he goes I'll follow, I'll follow, I'll follow.
	I will follow him.
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	Good morning, everybody.
	I hope you managed to get hold of that audio and got it on tape.
	That's truly historic stuff, and as I said, Larry Walters is, in my opinion, A great American hero, no question about it.
	All right, coming up in a moment, the greatest, deepest, most important question in life, and life is very short, and that is whether there's anything that comes afterwards.
	Now, this is unique scientific research you're about to hear, you're going to hear in a moment.
	Dr. Schwartz is currently professor of psychology, medicine, neurology, psychiatry, and surgery.
	My, my.
	Director of the Human Energy Systems Lab and Director of the Bioenergy Corps of the Pediatric Alternative Medicine Center at the University of Arizona.
	He served as Senior Research Advisor to Dr. Andrew Well's program in Integrative Medicine from 1998 to 2000.
	From 1998 to 2000, he received his Ph.D. in psychology from Harvard in 71.
	and 71.
	Served as Assistant Professor of Psychology at Harvard, 71 through 76.
	Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at Yale University.
	Director of the Yale Psychophysiology Center and Co-Director of the Yale Behavioral Medicine Clinic from 76 through 88.
	That's quite a pedigree.
	He's received many honors, including a Young Psychologist Award, an Early Career Award for Distinguished Research, both from the American Psychological Association.
	He has served as president of the Biofeedback Society of America and the Health Psychology Division of the American Psychological Association.
	He is a fellow of numerous societies, of course, as you might imagine, including the American Psychological Association, the American Physiological Society, the Academy of Behavioral Medicine, and the Society of Behavioral Medicine.
	He has co-edited eleven academic books, published more than four hundred scientific papers, including six in the journal Science, and has co-authored the Living Energy Universe.
	in a moment, Dr. Gary Schwartz.
	And now, that is really some pedigree I just read for Dr.
	Schwartz.
	Welcome to the program, doctor.
	It's a pleasure to be here, thanks.
	Great to have you.
	Where are you, by the way?
	I'm in Tucson, Arizona.
	Tucson, okay.
	Very good.
	I mean, with such a background as you have, I would think that the area of research that you have plunged into would be at best risky for you.
	Very, very risky.
	Harvard, Yale, all of that.
	You know, people have become in trouble at Harvard, as you know.
	John Mack got into a batch of trouble.
	And so, with that kind of pedigree, how do you get into the kind of area that you're in?
	Well, very carefully.
	Because this is not the kind of area that is reinforced by your colleagues.
	Yeah.
	In fact, as I sometimes affectionately put it, now that our work has become extremely public, especially with the new publication of this book, The Afterlife Experiments, I say that some of my colleagues would prefer that I do this research somewhere else, preferably on another planet.
	On another planet?
	Yes.
	So, I mean, the truth is, of course, it's very controversial.
	In my case, I began doing this work partly Accidentally from a scientific point of view and partly for personal reasons.
	What was the specific kind of work you were doing just prior to beginning this?
	Well, I was working in areas that bridged mind-body medicine, which is sort of mainstream.
	Energy medicine, which of course is now bridging into the alternative medicine area.
	And a little bit of what you might call spiritual medicine.
	You know, the spirituality side of psychology and health.
	So, in a way then, you were already slipping out of the mainstream a little bit anyway.
	Absolutely.
	In fact, when we had created this Human Energy Systems Laboratory, it was really going from my background actually in electrical engineering and taking it into into contemporary science. In fact, we always talk about
	that I do work on using mainstream methods to address frontier questions, but addressing the question of life
	after life, of course, was way off the mark from where I had been before.
	No, way, way off.
	It is, however, in my opinion, the biggest question that all of us have.
	Period.
	I mean, that's it.
	It's the big one.
	What could be bigger than that?
	I mean, even aliens.
	I think the only question that's actually bigger than this one, which is actually going to be the topic of the next book that I'm writing, is the topic of whether there's some sort of design or plan to the universe.
	And whether or not we can see the future of the universe.
	By the way, if you survive, if consciousness in some form that we can recognize and talk about survives death, then I would think the answer to that question will be apparent at death.
	Yes.
	In fact, the research on the afterlife actually points us to the idea of something bigger than all of us, of course.
	So it really does take us there.
	But I think that for most people, the number one question is, is this the end?
	Is it asterisk to asterisk, dust to dust?
	Or is this really just part of the beginning, so to speak?
	Alright, so in a quest to try and answer that question, you apparently began investigating psychics, right?
	People who claim they can speak to people on the other side, that sort of thing.
	Yes, what happened was that once Once I had, when I was a professor at Yale, come to the realization that contemporary physics didn't merely allow for the possibility of survival of consciousness, but actually seriously required it.
	That is, once you understand how physics works.
	It then became justifiable to bring in some of these mediums, people like, ultimately, people like John Edward.
	Crossing over, sure.
	To see whether or not what these people claim that they were doing, they actually could do under laboratory conditions.
	Alright, let me take you back just a step, because you said that physics, if you understand it, demands that there be an afterlife where consciousness continue, and I'd be very interested to hear how you figure that.
	Okay.
	When we look at the starlight, at night on a clear sky. Yes. What we're actually seeing
	and what physics tells us is we're actually seeing a history of the starlight. In
	fact this starlight may have traveled thousands or millions of years.
	We're looking into time, actually.
	In other words, if something is a hundred light years away, relatively very close, we are seeing, the light we're seeing is a hundred years old.
	That's right.
	Yes.
	In fact, what astrophysics claims is that photons going back to shortly after the quote Big Bang, if you believe that possibility, In what scientific method do we understand that that is, in fact, what we are observing?
	That they are actually the remnant of the Big Bang?
	in my room where I'm sitting, we can measure those photons as what's called background radiation
	and those photons are vibrating just as they were twelve billion years ago.
	In what scientific method do we understand that that is in fact what we are observing?
	That they are actually the remnant of the Big Bang? How do we really know that, by the way?
	Well, there's a lot of inference in order to do that.
	You have to make certain assumptions about the nature of light, the frequencies that are observed, and the prevalence.
	There's a lot of storytelling there.
	I see.
	Put another way, we think it's the stuff of the Big Bang.
	We don't know for sure.
	We cannot prove it.
	No.
	However, what we can know for sure is that the light from the distant stars that we're seeing has been traveling for thousands of millions of light years.
	All right.
	That we know.
	All right.
	And the interesting thing about that is that long after the star has, quote, died, that energy and information is still there.
	Correct.
	The other thing that we know, and this is a fact, is that each and every one of us We are emitting photons, and those photons are going into space.
	So, for example, spy satellites can see our images, right?
	Correct.
	Which means what?
	That our photons are going out into space, and I don't mean just the visible ones, but all the invisible ones, the infrared, the ultraviolet, the microwave, the x-rays, all of the energies that we record in our laboratory.
	All that information is streaming out and going into space like the light from the moon.
	Okay, so then, in a sense, you could say, once we're gone, we're not gone.
	We're just traveling on.
	That's right.
	Once we're gone, we're not gone.
	We're just traveling on.
	Eternally traveling on.
	That's beautifully put poetry.
	We should remember that.
	Fine, but how does that translate to some coherent gathering of these photons that would represent something that we loosely call consciousness?
	Well, here's what neuroscience assumes, and it's an assumption.
	Neuroscience assumes that our brains are biological systems that allow us to see and hear and think and so on, right?
	That's the normal assumption, and whether we posit That the brain is creating these experiences or merely serving as an antenna and receiver for these experiences.
	Which, by the way, our research speaks to very strongly, suggesting it's the latter rather than the former.
	But whether it's either one of those, the fact is that because we have this apparatus, we can do certain kinds of things.
	Now, what does physics tell us about the nature of matter?
	Matter is actually organized energy.
	In fact, as you know, matter is mostly empty space.
	Right.
	So, all of the energy and information that is contained in our physical structure, which is constantly streaming into space, it does not lose any of its individuality.
	Otherwise, when we looked up at the sky at night, what we would see is just random noise.
	Well, that's an interesting theory.
	Or perhaps better than theory.
	It's a basic assumption of astrophysics.
	The organization of the matter that flows from us, which really is us, no matter how it's formed, you're saying, continues unabated.
	Oh, that's so interesting.
	And so that's the beginning basis which says that if we just accept the basic tenets of astrophysics, and we combine it with neuroscience... I get it.
	We're forced to entertain the hypothesis that if consciousness is related to matter, and matter is energy, and energy continues, then our consciousness continues.
	You don't need to be a rocket scientist to come to that logical conclusion.
	It helps.
	You just have to be logical.
	It would help.
	Rocket scientists would understand this more easily.
	We would like to think so.
	But they have to be open-minded rocket scientists.
	I know that.
	Well, I'm not so sure about that.
	I mean, as you point out, This is consistent with the laws of physics that we understand, and if everything that is you continues to flow as it now flows, minus the physical body, and we know that to be true as the stars shine in the night sky, then so there is a continuance.
	Exactly.
	The way I put it is that the probability that our consciousness continues after we die, is the same probability that the light from distant stars
	continues forever.
	Makes sense. That was the sort of the simplest way to describe
	a theoretical framework that said we should be open to the possibility.
	You know when skeptics say science says that this is impossible,
	these people don't understand simple physics.
	And or care to apply it to the emanations of a biological entity.
	Right.
	Which means that they're then being hypocritical about the nature of physical, the nature of the physical theory.
	Well, that's a pretty doggone good jumping off point for an investigation.
	I can certainly see that.
	Right.
	So that's where it began.
	But that wasn't sufficient, by the way, for me to bring in these initially what I consider to be very strange folks.
	People who were talking to dead people.
	I've seen John Edward.
	I know, I have, you know, interviewed, of course, many people like James Von Praag and others who claim to do this.
	And I guess I must say I've always had a seed of doubt, a pretty strong seed of doubt about what they claim.
	However, it's closing in on me.
	I, you know, I've been interviewing, for example, these people with electronic voice phenomena.
	Right.
	And it's pretty interesting stuff, and then every now and then, of course, I do a ghost show, and when I do, you know, I do a serious program, and the lines never, ever stop ringing.
	I mean, the number of people, it would be interesting to do a survey of some sort, maybe some national survey of how many people have had encounters With ghosts.
	People who have passed on.
	And the numbers, Doctor, are huge.
	Absolutely huge.
	I bet they've never done a study like this.
	In fact, you know what would be wonderful to do?
	And I'm going to suggest this on the air.
	What?
	That you consider, maybe with me or with some group of people, using your audience as an initial sample to do that kind of study.
	You've got a website, you've got people who listen to you all the time.
	One could literally put on a website... You know what, though?
	You would get a disproportionate response from my audience.
	Oh, absolutely.
	I mean, in my mind, you've got to commission like a Roper survey or something like that and do it of the...
	Ultimately, you want to get a random sample.
	That's for sure.
	Absolutely.
	But I mean, even with my program, we get telephone reports of how many people try to reach a show, like when I'm doing an open line show on Ghosts, and the numbers are in the hundreds of thousands.
	Wow.
	A lot of American people, people across the world, of course, have had these encounters.
	I don't know what you want to call them.
	Messages, encounters, whatever they are, it's so common.
	I really would love to see a survey.
	Well, I think someday it's going to have to happen, maybe sooner rather than later.
	You see, what's interesting is that the research that I report in this new book, The Afterlife Experiments, this research is so definitive that it now requires us to be open to the idea
	that observations like ghosts and so on are probably not all just hallucinations
	or people's misperceptions.
	Oh no.
	That quite the contrary.
	These are real phenomena and that we've got to come to understand them.
	What do you think the implications are of the ability of an entity,
	a consciousness on what we call the other side or on this long journey,
	somehow either still being present in some manner here or reaching back from where they are to manifest themselves
	here?
	Is that consistent with the physics?
	Absolutely.
	It is?
	Absolutely consistent with the physics.
	And what you have to do, in order to make it consistent, is to integrate the physics with what's called systems science.
	And what systems science is, simply put, is the analysis of what are called feedback loops.
	And all physical systems, whether they're atoms or molecules or cells or organs or People or planetary systems, galaxies, it doesn't matter.
	Whatever the scope of the system is, the components are connected with each other.
	Alright, on that note, hold it.
	We'll pick up right here when we get back.
	My guest is Dr. Gary Schwartz.
	And we're talking about what's coming for all of us.
	And we're talking about what's coming for all of us.
	A band is growing big, say, double fall time.
	Bye.
	You feel alright, when you hear the music ring.
	And I step inside Time, time, time
	See what's become of me Time, time, time
	See what's become of me Why I looked around for you?
	All my possibilities, I was so hard to please.
	The ground, leaves the ground, and the sky.
	To reach Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222, or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the premier radio network.
	My guest is Dr. Gary Schwartz.
	He'll be right back.
	Listen, I almost hate to do this, and I'm going to tell you why.
	My website is approaching the 100 millionth visitor, and since I mentioned that, it's now approaching it too darn quickly.
	Now, we were going to write software, so there'd be a little magic word that would appear on your screen with a, you know, sort of a keyword, code word, so we'd know it was you that hit the 100 millionth time.
	However, we may hit it too soon before the software is written.
	Hell, we may hit it before the show's over.
	I've got a picture on my website, so this isn't going to help.
	It's of the damnedest fish you ever saw in your whole life.
	A guy actually caught this fish in the Mississippi River.
	You want to see it?
	Good luck to us.
	If we have many more like this, all I can say is good luck to us.
	Take a look at this fish.
	You're gonna need a strong stomach.
	Look around, he's our friend.
	There's a patch of snow on the ground.
	Look around, he's our friend.
	Alright, actually we're getting uncounted hits right now because it was going so damn fast that
	we're gonna slow it up to get the software written so we'll actually know who the hundredth, millionth person actually
	is.
	So when you go up there right now it's just going to say millions and we're putting together that software and then we'll allow it to begin counting again.
	That's how serious it is.
	I forget the last one I looked at, but we took like 100,000 hits or something in an hour and a half, so we're just going to slow everything down a little bit for a while.
	All right, back now to Dr. Gary Schwartz.
	Dr. Schwartz, welcome back.
	How this stream of what we are that is outgoing, and I can grasp that, and I think most people in the audience can, as Starlight continues, so do we, in some form, and some apparent coherent form, but the reaching back part of it that we were talking about, and somehow manifesting to a loved one, or even just getting a message across what I guess we can call the veil or whatever, it separates us, That is a little harder to understand.
	In fact, let me tell my audience, I'm going to do a ghost-to-ghost show on Friday.
	I just decided in the last few minutes after talking about it, so I just called Keith.
	We're going to do a ghost-to-ghost program this Friday night, Saturday morning, and I'm telling you, Doctor, I could be on the air for 20 hours straight and still the lines would be jammed with people, honest, sincere people, many of them like, you know, firemen, policemen, all walks of life who have had experiences that they cannot even begin to explain.
	Many, including some proof, and oh, God, it's incredible.
	So we'll do that Friday night, Saturday morning.
	In the meantime, how, again, let's hit it.
	Can these things manifest in any way or even communicate?
	Alright.
	Once you understand what I'm about to explain to you about how feedback in a system works, it will be as clear to you about how the past circulates in the present as the story that I told you about the light from distant stars.
	We just have to talk for a couple of minutes here.
	Any system Involve two or more components and they're joined like hydrogen and oxygen come together and make water.
	What hydrogen does is it sends information and energy to oxygen and oxygen sends energy and information back to hydrogen and that circulates over and over.
	That's what's called a feedback loop.
	I talk to you, you talk to me, I talk to you, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
	When you analyze what's circulating in this loop, what you realize is what returns to a given component is actually a history of what it sent out.
	In other words, if I say to you, hello, and you say hello back, what you're doing to me is you're sending back to me a response of what I sent to you.
	Correct.
	So what I'm actually doing is responding to a history of myself as perceived and revised by you.
	And the way to simply say this is that what goes around and stays around evolves around.
	What goes around and stays around evolves around.
	Because each time it goes through the loop, it picks up new information.
	And what's interesting about this analysis, by the way, is that what this says is that anything that is a system is constantly storing information and energy.
	And what we call intention or consciousness involves this memory process, and I call that systemic memory, meaning it's memory in the system.
	Now once you understand that basic concept, by the way that's how Neuroscientists explain how neurons learn.
	You've heard of what's called a neural network.
	Yes, of course.
	The way that a neural network works is that the output of the neurons is fed back into the input.
	Yeah, it's feedback.
	It's called feedback.
	And if you cut that feedback, you know what happens?
	The network won't learn.
	The feedback is critical for the system to learn, to grow, and to have intention.
	So once you understand that, that is a universal principle, because this feedback loop applies in everything from the micro to the macro.
	Now the question is, to what extent, when we die, do we lose those feedback loops?
	And the answer is, we don't lose those feedback loops any more than we lose any of our information and energy.
	All of that's preserved.
	So the very apparatus that allows For the internal coherence and organization which allows for feedback processes to occur is as real as the starlight from distant stars and therefore I can talk to you when I'm dead just like I talk to you when I'm alive.
	The only difference is I don't have the same concentration of energy because I've lost some of my matter.
	So that's the logic of what leads us to realize That when we literally die, we don't lose the history of our neurons, or the history of our ears, or the history of our eyes.
	All that information is preserved as a system, a living energy system, in the quote vacuum of space.
	That's the explanation.
	Alright.
	When you investigated people like John Edward, and Laurie Campbell, I guess, Susie Smith, so many of these mediums that you investigated.
	You haven't gotten around to some of them yet, but this would be enough.
	When you went to investigate them, how did you investigate them, and what were your findings?
	The best way to explain this is to pick a prototypic experiment.
	Because the first thing that you have to do with these mediums is you have to rule out any possibility that what they're doing is that they're engaged in fraud.
	Of course.
	You want to rule out fraud.
	Right.
	You also want to rule out what's called cold reading.
	Right.
	Which are these magic tricks, which we can talk about later.
	Not really magic.
	Not really magic.
	No, it's not real magic.
	It's pseudo magic.
	Yeah.
	It's, you know, illusions.
	And by the way, I've had training.
	I know how to be a fake medium.
	OK, so how do you How do you rule that out?
	How do you rule all of this out?
	Here's how you do it.
	I mean, first, fraud would be obviously information obtained ahead of time through some other means.
	Let's see, what else?
	There could be microphones.
	There could be all kinds of that obvious type fraud.
	Right.
	How do you check for that?
	Well, let me tell you how we did the experiment, and you'll see how it eliminates all of this.
	All righty.
	In the Afterlife Experiments book, In what's called the Canyon Ranch experiments, because these experiments were literally conducted at Canyon Ranch.
	In fact, Canyon Ranch, which is a health resort in Tucson, actually helped fund the research.
	What we did is, imagine you've got a medium like John Edward.
	There are actually three of them in three different rooms.
	John Edward, Suzanne Northrup, and Laurie Campbell.
	Let's take John Edward.
	John Edward is in a room by himself, and he's facing a wall with his back to the door.
	He's facing a video camera and a backup tape recorder.
	Right.
	And behind him is a floor-to-ceiling screen.
	So even if he turned around, he couldn't see who was behind him.
	Okay.
	So the first thing we've done is we've eliminated any visual cues.
	He can't see.
	Right.
	So he doesn't know who's behind him.
	I now, as the experimenter with John, I bring in a given sitter.
	Now a sitter is a person who wants to hear from their, you know, deceased loved ones.
	If I may, when did John Edward agree to do this?
	Well, the first time he agreed, because he's been actually to Tucson for four different experiments, the very first one he agreed to in the winter of 1998, which was just before what was called the HBO special, Life After Life.
	Did you approach him?
	Did he approach you?
	How did it occur?
	How it occurred was that originally Lisa Jackson, who was the producer-director, She approached John Edwards and John Edwards said no.
	He didn't want to participate in their show because he didn't trust them.
	She then approached me and my laboratory and was interested because she had heard that we were doing mediumship research.
	She of course had access to John Edwards and I did not because John didn't know me then.
	John didn't trust scientists of course.
	He didn't trust scientists and he didn't trust the media.
	When Lisa Jackson came out to visit with us, I proposed to Lisa that if she was really interested in science and the truth, what she should do is bring these mediums and pay to have these mediums, including John Edwards, come to Tucson to take part in an experiment where we could actually test them in front of live cameras under controlled conditions.
	Well, I'm certainly impressed that he agreed to it.
	Well, he didn't initially agree.
	He didn't initially agree, but ultimately he did anyway.
	Ultimately he did.
	He insisted that he talked to me and he grilled me for two to three hours.
	I don't blame him either.
	What I'm saying is, though, that to me it is impressive that he allowed himself to be tested in that manner.
	I mean, you know, people like John Edwards are very controversial, and I've seen a lot of stuff floating around the Internet accusing him of this and that.
	Right.
	And that's true, of course, of most of the mediums.
	So that they would even allow themselves, ultimately, to be tested, I think is Really important and adds a great deal to what they claim they can do.
	Credibility wise, in my eyes.
	I completely agree with you.
	In fact, we have a slogan which says if mediums are willing to stand up and be counted, scientists should be willing to stand up and count.
	If they're willing to put their careers on the line, we should be willing to test them under the very best conditions possible.
	So I want to hear now about these tests.
	I bring in a sitter.
	Now these, by the way, are not just grieving parents, for example.
	These are research sitters.
	These people have been secretly selected because they're interested in research, they're trained how to score the data before they're ever brought into an experiment, and they're interested in finding out the truth.
	And by the way, these people have to score every single item from every single transcript Not just from their readings, but from everybody else's readings.
	They don't have to sit there and do that live.
	No, no, no.
	Because they can pick it apart later, right?
	Exactly.
	In fact, they couldn't do it live because there's too much information occurring too quickly.
	Gotcha.
	Okay.
	Now, here's the critical part.
	Imagine for the moment that John Edward, or one of these mediums, had my phone tapped.
	Somehow they got the names of the sitters ahead of time.
	And they even got the information about these people ahead of time.
	Yes.
	What we did was we made it impossible for them to use it.
	And let me explain how.
	The first thing that we did was that the order of which sitter was going to be run at which time was not determined until a half hour before the experiment.
	Now when you refer to a sitter, this is a... This is a person.
	A sitter is a subject who is going to be read by John.
	In other words, they're going to sit and John is going to talk to their dead whatever?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	But here's the critical thing in this experiment.
	For the first 10 minutes, the sitter doesn't say a word and John's not allowed to talk to them.
	They just sit there and stare at each other?
	Well, no, they can't stare at each other because John can't see them.
	There's a shield to them, and John's back is to them.
	So John can't see them, he can't talk to them.
	And that eliminates any possibility of fraud, and it eliminates any possibility of cold reading.
	Because they're not getting any feedback, they're not getting any cues.
	Even small facial expressions, or tics, or little responses to something John might say, all of that is gone.
	It's eliminated because John can't see them.
	John's back is hidden and there's a shield between them.
	Gotcha.
	So what we've done is eliminated all the normal cues and all the possibility for fraud.
	Okay.
	Okay?
	Now the question is, to what extent can John get specific information, initials, names, causes of death, Historical facts, personal descriptions, descriptions of people's personalities and temperaments, information that can be independently confirmed by other living relatives and friends, that is specific to the individual behind him, and he doesn't know who that person is.
	That's the number one question.
	And much to my absolute amazement, because I was an agnostic when I came into this work, much to my amazement, they can do it, and they can do it in spades.
	I'll give you lots of examples and stories of data that just are breathtaking with the kinds of findings that they do.
	Now, what was it like running these controlled experiments and having it dawn on you that this was real?
	Oh boy, it was amazing.
	Because, first of all, in this kind of work, you have to be prepared for surprises.
	Well, yes.
	Louis Pasteur used to say that great discoveries are accidents observed by prepared minds.
	And I was continually floored.
	In fact, during the HBO experiment, which was the first time that I saw people like John Edward and Suzanne Northrup and George Anderson work, you know, literally side by side with me.
	The way I explain it is my jaw dropped about 50 times during the day.
	My jaw was so tired at the end of the day from witnessing things that I could not believe.
	What happened was, after experiment after experiment of witnessing this stuff under
	ever more controlled conditions, the way I put it is, I was finally pushed off the fence
	by the data.
	Then you know what happened the next morning?
	I climbed back up the fence.
	On this program, so many times I have really been pushed over the fence, particularly on this topic, and then I too withdraw a little bit back from it again and reinstitute my doubts, and then inevitably I'll get pushed over again.
	It's a constant.
	You'd be pushed off, you'd climb back up.
	Oh, I wonder why that happens.
	I mean, is it some sort of something in the mind that just refuses to believe what it is presented with, if it's too outside our frame of reference, or what?
	Well, I think it's more than that.
	Let me tell you, have you heard of what's called PTSD, which is post-traumatic stress disorder?
	Yes, I know about it, yes.
	Okay.
	Well, I believe that I, and I think you, and many others, suffer from what I call a P.E.S.D.
	Which is a post-education stress disorder.
	Here's what happened to me.
	I was brought up to believe that there's the Easter Bunny, there's Santa Claus, and there's survival of consciousness after death.
	And I was taught that this idea is stupid, that it is wrong, that it is impossible, that it can't be true.
	And I was a good student.
	Remember, I went to good schools.
	I went to Harvard, I was a professor at Yale and so on, so I learned this stuff really well.
	Then what happens when all of a sudden you start seeing data, and the data is inconsistent with what you've been conditioned over and over to believe?
	I'm sort of like Pavlov's dog salivating to the bell.
	I've been so conditioned to believe it's impossible, that now when I see information that says not only is it possible, But it's actually happening.
	I find it just very hard to believe, because I have to get over it.
	In fact, I describe myself now as a recovering agnostic, because I have to recover from the prior training that I've had, which is that all of this can't be true.
	And so you withdraw even from the reality of your own experiments.
	In fact, people ask me, they say, Gary, they say, what do you believe?
	And I say it's not what's important, what I believe, it's what I know.
	And what I know, and what I present in the Afterlife Experiments book, is that these experiments are real.
	The data are real.
	They're replicated.
	I have no question that these experiments are real.
	The problem is, I still have a hard time believing them.
	Even now, huh?
	Even now.
	And you know how I explain this to people?
	Do you remember September 11th?
	I'm sure you do.
	Well, many of us had the, and I call it a privilege, as horrible as it was, to witness 9-11 happening as it was occurring.
	And what millions and millions of people saw and said was, they couldn't believe what they were seeing.
	Hold it right there, doctor.
	Dr. Gary Schwartz is my guest, and what we're going to do when we get back, aside from follow this up, is To hear what it is that convinced Dr. Schwartz.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Thanks for watching.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	It certainly is.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Listen, let me say this one more time, all right?
	Our website is headed toward the hundredth millionth Hit.
	100 million hits on the main page, and that's all we record.
	Now, of course, the minute I opened my big mouth, zillions of you started going up there, and we're writing, Keith is writing a special little piece of software that will cause to pop up on the screen of the 100th millionth Visitor.
	A sort of a magic keyword and a very special message that I'm obviously not going to reveal right here.
	And maybe we'll get a, you know, a winner and maybe we won't.
	I mean, there are people, we understand, there are people out there who are just going to sit there and hit reload again and again and again, hoping to be the one.
	Well, the one possible fatal error in that strategy Is that you will get the magic screen and you will hit reload and just, you know, you will have missed it.
	So it may well be that nobody will become the magic person with the key word or the phrase or whatever it is that we put in there for you to tell us that we know you are in fact the person who did it.
	Plus you ought to get a screenshot if you can get a camera if you happen to get it.
	So what we have done is turned off the counter Until the software is in place, which could be a matter of hours or in the morning, whatever, and we'll turn the counter back on.
	And then maybe, maybe, if somebody's not twitchy fingered out there, they will get the special hundredth, millionth message.
	We'll see.
	Dr. Gary Schwartz is my absolutely fascinating guest.
	He'll be right back.
	All right, with respect, first to the 9-11 disaster, Doctor, you say you experienced that as it occurred in...
	In what sense?
	Well, I was awoken in the morning.
	Right.
	At 6.15 Tucson time.
	Right.
	Which was 8.15 New York time.
	And I was told that something horrible was happening and I should turn on the television.
	Right.
	Of course I turned on the television and I saw the first tower burning.
	And I couldn't believe it.
	And of course I turned the channels to see whether there was some mistake.
	And virtually all the channels were showing this.
	And then I saw this second plane crashing into the building.
	And at this point I could not, I couldn't imagine that two planes in a short period of time could somehow crash into this building.
	Certainly not deliberately.
	It didn't make any sense to me.
	I then got out of bed.
	I went and I made some coffee.
	I went into another room and turned on the television set.
	I received another phone call.
	And while I was on this phone, and it's important about who this phone call was from, I'll tell you in a second.
	While I'm on the phone with this person, I see the first building collapsing.
	And I realize that for the first time in my life, I'm literally witnessing, as are millions of other people, thousands of people dying.
	Thousands of people are dying.
	Meanwhile, I know, because I have a book called The Afterlife Experiment that's about to be published, I know the significance of what this means in terms of the whole issue of survival of consciousness after death.
	And of course, I can't believe that this is happening.
	And yet, I knew it was true, but I couldn't believe it.
	Now, what was even more unbelievable for me personally We're the conditions under which that I was witnessing this.
	You see, when I was woken up at 6.15 in the morning, I was actually awoken by a woman by the name of Joanne Rule, who's a research medium in Tucson.
	She works in my laboratory.
	And when I was on the phone and the first building collapsed, I was actually had received a phone call from Lori Campbell, who is the chairperson of our mediumship committee.
	She was in California and she was in tears.
	Because she was worried about whether or not John Edward, who was in that area typically at that time of the day, she was worried that maybe something had happened to him.
	So, on top of everything else, I'm literally talking to a medium about another medium when thousands of people are dying.
	And yes, I do, it was true.
	Maybe you could try and explain this.
	You know what they're doing at Princeton, right?
	Yes.
	The consciousness stuff?
	Yes.
	All the computers, the eggs scattered around the world, reporting back to the computer at Princeton?
	Yes.
	Did you see the graphs, Professor of the of the 9-11 event and did you see them begin to go off the
	chart four hours prior to the event itself and then for hours after the
	event itself?
	These are a random number of computers reporting back.
	Really, we believe, they believe, monitoring consciousness, the mass
	consciousness out there and the fact that they started to go off the graph
	four hours prior to the event is so incredibly
	intriguing and mind-boggling in what it suggests about space and time and
	all kinds of things that...
	I just wonder how you reacted to all of that.
	Well, one of the amazing discoveries that We report in the Afterlife Experiments book is that every now and then these mediums in the laboratory would literally see the future before it happened.
	We call them, you know, you've heard the term precognitive dreams or precognitive experiences.
	Oh, yes.
	And these mediums, like John Edward and Laurie Campbell and so on, they're not just mediums.
	They are typically, quote, psychic.
	They have other gifts.
	And we actually had documented cases of verified precognitive information where even they didn't know that it was precognitive.
	All they were doing was reporting the experience.
	They didn't know whether it was present or future.
	They were just experiencing it.
	So I was already seeing data in the laboratory that things about what's going to happen in the future can be known before they happen.
	Then, I began doing research with a man called the Dream Detective from England, who for the past 13 years, after a near-death experience, and by the way, he's an undercover policeman who had a near-death experience, he began recognizing that when he would be going to sleep at night, he'd be having dreams not only about bombings and other terrorist activities that had taken place, But more remarkably, about terrorist activity that was going to happen in the future.
	In fact, in his dreams, the way he reports it, is that very often he will get information from deceased policemen in his dreams.
	Telling him about events that are going to happen in the future.
	Still on the job.
	Still on the job.
	It gives new meaning to the phrase, our work is never done.
	Alright, I really would like to know the results of the experiments.
	In other words, what dropped your jaw?
	Tell me and tell everybody, because we weren't there.
	We've heard how the experiments were controlled.
	I really want to hear what you got.
	Okay, let me give you an example.
	This is one of my favorite examples, and this was a turning point.
	By the way, I've described this particular experiment, these findings, to over 7,000 people, so I'll give you the results of what they reported, and your audience can even try this as we go along.
	It's sitter number three, the third sitter in the Canyon Ranch experiment, the one I told you about, and John says, first of all, he says, During the sitter-silent period, he says, I'm sensing that the person has a deceased grandmother.
	Well, if you ask people how many of you have a deceased grandmother, almost everybody raises their hand.
	Most.
	That's not terribly meaningful.
	Right.
	Even though it's true.
	Maybe true.
	Then he says, and the grandmother is showing me that she really loved the sitter.
	Well, still.
	Most grandmothers really loved the sitter.
	So that doesn't count.
	And then he says, The grandmother is showing me that she brought daisies to the wedding.
	He says, daisies to the wedding?
	Now you're cooking?
	Yes.
	When I've asked people how many people's grandparents brought daisies to the wedding, three people out of approximately 7,000 have said that their grandmothers brought daisies to the wedding.
	Right.
	That's why I say you're cooking.
	That would stand the hair up on the back of my neck right away.
	And in this particular case, you haven't heard anything yet.
	In this particular case, it turned out that for this sitter's grandmother, she literally wove the daisies into her daughter's hair, so it was meaningful.
	Then John says, he says, the grandmother is showing me that she had two dogs, two large poodles in fact, a black poodle and a white poodle, and the white poodle tore up the house.
	And now you ask, how many people have grandmothers that have two large dogs, two poodles?
	A black poodle and a white poodle.
	And the white poodle tore up the house.
	Right, now the numbers are going off the chart.
	And you're telling me the sitter, what did the sitter do during these responses?
	Are you telling me the sitter in this case, the subject, was on the other side of the screen and silent during all of this particular time that we're now talking about?
	Yes, this is the kind of information that you get during the sitter-silent period.
	But let me give you the really interesting part.
	I thought that was it.
	No, no, no.
	This is now where we get to the part that was the convincing part.
	See, John does this a lot.
	John and our other mediums, they will often get information.
	Yeah, but not under these kind of controlled... Even under these kind of controlled conditions in our laboratory, they can do this.
	Let me tell you the surprise.
	For this particular sitter, he gets a good 70-80% accuracy.
	I bring the sitter back to the sequestered area, where they're hidden, and now I bring in sitter number four.
	And John says, I keep hearing the song on the good ship Lollipop.
	And then he goes, I'm hearing Sabrina, Sabrina the Teenage Witch.
	And then he says to me, Gary, did you bring a sitter in And I said, yes.
	Remember, he couldn't tell.
	Right.
	He said, Gary, he said, I've got a problem.
	Remember, he can talk to me.
	I said, what's your problem, John?
	He said, I can't get anything for this sitter.
	I said, what do you mean you can't get anything for this sitter?
	If you can't get anything for this sitter, that's a zero.
	That means you're going to get nothing for this sitter, which lowers your average.
	Right.
	He said, I'm sorry, Gary.
	I said, what's the problem?
	He says to me, the previous sitter's grandmother is still here.
	And I said, excuse me?
	I couldn't believe my ears.
	I'd never heard anything about this.
	He said, Gary, he said, mark my words.
	He said, I'm going to tell you that you will find that this particular sitter is currently waiting to see another medium.
	Because remember, there were five sitters.
	There were only three mediums.
	So at any one point in time, two sitters were waiting.
	He said, this grandmother is here because she wants to give the sitter more information And then he said something I couldn't verify.
	He said, and I think the grandmother likes me.
	I thought that was cute.
	Okay.
	So I said, okay, you get a zero.
	All right.
	I bring sitter number four back.
	Who's waiting?
	Just like John said, but sitter number three.
	So I sit down next to sitter number three and I said, can I ask you a couple of questions?
	And she said, sure.
	And I said, does the good ship lollipop mean anything to you?
	And this sitter broke into tears.
	The reason was when she had been a little girl, she had curly brown hair, she used to
	sing and dance, and she used to sing Shirley Temple songs for her grandmother.
	Now she did not remember if she had actually sung on the good ship lollipop.
	She had to call her mother to confirm that.
	Now you want to guess what the sitter's name was?
	Sabrina.
	Oh my god, really?
	Yes, and when she had been a teenager, some kids had teased her.
	And guess who she went to for solace?
	That kind of data, you see, is just more than jaw dropping.
	Yeah, it's more than jaw dropping.
	You must have even gone back on yourself and said, no, he has to have gotten this information from some other... Exactly.
	I mean, because the alternative is to be thrust into the belief that what you just tested is real.
	Yes, in fact, one of the things that I did after we did all of these sets of experiments, before we started, actually we're doing now long distance experiments over the telephone, We're eliminating olfactory cues and everything else, and we're doing double-blind studies and the like.
	I convened seven of the world's best-known psychic magicians.
	These are the fake people, the people who cheat all the time.
	I flew them into Los Angeles.
	I showed them all the videotapes of these different experiments, and I asked them if there was any way that they could imagine cheating and faking under the conditions of these experiments.
	No.
	And none of them could do it.
	They all said, every one last one of them, that if they were put under the conditions of these experiments, their tricks wouldn't work.
	Now some of them said that maybe if I gave them a year or two, they might be able to figure something out and practice something.
	But at the present time... Under those conditions, I cannot imagine what that would be.
	I'm not going to take your word for it.
	And you know what I told them?
	I said, listen, I said when the mediums tell me that they can do something, I don't take
	their word for it.
	I say you come into the laboratory and show me.
	I said if a subset of you think that in a year or two you might be able to figure out
	something to do, you think it's possible, I'm not going to take your word for it.
	You're going to have to come in and show me that you can do this.
	The truth is nobody knows how they could fake into these conditions and that's why the experiments
	described in the Afterlife Experiments book force us to really entertain the idea that
	something real is going on, at least with this select group of mediums.
	Do you have any overall numbers as a result of those experiments?
	Well, the average accuracy If you allow the readings to be sort of normal, and what I mean by sort of normal is that you allow the mediums to ask yes or no questions, their average accuracy, if you can believe this, is over 80%.
	right if you allow the readings to be sort of normal money but sort of normal
	Over 80%?
	is that you allow the medium to ask yes or no question their average accuracy if you can believe this is
	over 80 percent over 80 percent over 80 percent if you make it stringent
	In other words, if you make it to the point where they're not allowed to ask any questions, it's completely blind.
	Then the accuracy drops down to about 50%.
	Still, when you're dealing with specific things, the numbers would be off the chart.
	The p-values are in the billions or trillions in terms of this occurring by chance.
	I bet.
	I bet.
	So, oh my.
	So you know, once you've done enough of these studies, what happens is I ended up surrendering I finally said I give up.
	I give up.
	Something's going on.
	All right.
	Hold it right there.
	That's a good place to hold it.
	Actually, I'm going to gather my thoughts together.
	The odds of that, of course, as you said, millions or trillions for individual data under either one of the conditions described.
	All of this would seem to support, with absolute proof, the existence of consciousness following death.
	That is no trivial matter, to be sure.
	I'm Art Bell.
	this is Coast to Coast AM.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	That's interesting.
	I'm getting fast-blasted by Ham, who said listen for me on 7225, 40 meter band.
	Well, I'll tell you what I'll do.
	In about an hour and a half, when I get off the air, I'll fire up my rig.
	On 72.25 on the 40 meter band, lower side band.
	And if there's any hands out there, I think I'll do that at this time of night while of course 40 meters probably is pretty much coast to coast.
	So I'll do that.
	About an hour and a half.
	72.25 lower side band.
	We've got Dr. Gary Schwartz here, who I think, if you're willing to believe what he just said about scientifically controlled experiments, has proven that there is consciousness life after a death.
	That's exactly what he has proven.
	Now, I understand that sitting out there on the other side of the radio, you're probably trying to tear holes in it mentally one way or the other.
	I know that I am.
	I know that I know that I fight evidence as strong as this.
	It's something that for some reason, we discussed this a little earlier, you actually fight it.
	It's just, it's almost too hard to grasp and yet I don't for one second doubt the legitimacy of his experiments or the carefully controlled nature of his experiments.
	So, that taken into consideration with what he just said, Proves proves life after death and Like the song about suicide bringing on many changes that brings on many questions, and I've got a few in a moment There is one other
	Really, really, really important question for Dr. Schwartz.
	And that is that I believe that what you have proven is life after death with one possible caveat.
	And that, of course, is how do we know That the medium is not, and this would be really its own astounding story, but how do we know the medium is not either essentially remote viewing, A, or B, reading the mind of the sitter?
	Wonderful question.
	Absolutely wonderful question.
	So let's say for the moment that we've ruled out convincingly these conventional explanations.
	Correct, yes.
	I think you have done that, yes.
	That's where we get to other research.
	Now let me give you one more study that's described in one of the last chapters of the Afterlife Experiments and is also discussed in a new book by George Dalzell called Messages because George is a psychiatric social worker who subsequently became a medium.
	Now let me describe the experiment and then I'll describe to you the finding That makes it virtually impossible to explain as being telepathy, mind reading of the sitter.
	Okay.
	Here's the experiment.
	The medium is Lori Campbell.
	She's located in Tucson, because I flew her to Tucson.
	Right.
	The sitter is located in Los Angeles.
	The sitter is George Dalzell.
	And George is in Los Angeles, and George is completely silent during the Early phase of the reading.
	So we're now doing it long distance.
	What does the medium, how did you control this experiment and what did the medium know about the sitter?
	The medium knew nothing about the sitter.
	Nothing?
	The medium didn't know where the sitter was in the country.
	Or who?
	There were multiple sitters, yes.
	It's all controlled just like all the other studies.
	All right.
	What we've done is just now made it long distance.
	Sure.
	And what's interesting about this particular sitter and experiment During the course of the reading, Laurie received four pieces of information, specific pieces of information, that the sitter did not know.
	So remember, she's doing a reading long distance.
	She doesn't know where in the country the sitter is.
	Right.
	She's getting information about the deceased loved ones of the sitter.
	And she includes four pieces of information, which later, upon questioning, the sitter himself doesn't know.
	And he then has to make other phone calls, including to Europe.
	In order to confirm?
	In order to confirm the information Lori has obtained.
	That would do it.
	Right.
	That would do it.
	Alright, so what was the...
	Initial reason for this experiment, this long-distance experiment, to determine if distance was any factor at all?
	Yes.
	It was?
	Part of the reason was... But you ended up with unintended consequences?
	Yes, and again, it's just a surprise.
	Remember I told you, great discoveries are accidents observed by prepared minds.
	Yes, yes, indeed.
	I did not anticipate that Laurie would get not just a piece of information, but four specific pieces of information in a given reading.
	Would you care to say how specific?
	Sure, let me give you an example.
	She received information about the deceased best friend of the sitter, where she was shown, supposedly, by the deceased, that on the way home from Europe, she didn't know where in Europe, from some major city going to the country, That on the way to his country house, there was this church, an old monastery-like church, on the right-hand side of the road along a river.
	Now, George did not know that there was any church or old monastery along the right-hand side of the road.
	So what he did was he called the parents of this man who died, they lived in Germany, and asked the parents, was there such a church?
	And it turned out that not only was there such and is there such an old monastery, but two weeks before the experiment, they had held a memorial service in that church for their deceased son.
	You want to hear another specific one?
	Sure.
	Another deceased person, who was among the list of deceased that George was hoping would come through, was a man by the name of Jerry.
	And Jerry, Lori, correctly obtained information that there was a man by the name of Jerry, that he was deceased, that he had been an alcoholic, but that he was changing his ways just before he died.
	And in the course of the reading, Lori described that Jerry had spent some time on the East Coast in Brooklyn, drunk.
	Now, George did not know that his friend Jerry had ever been in Brooklyn.
	So what he did was called one of Jerry's friends, and lo and behold, discovered that for apparently, I think it was two years, Jerry had lived in Brooklyn and had been an alcoholic in Brooklyn.
	Okay.
	Sold.
	Now, I mean, I don't know what else you can say.
	Sold.
	All right.
	You know, if I were you, and I'm not. Once I had come to that
	strong a threshold, I would then I think begin to want to know something
	about the nature of the other side. I mean there are questions now that pop up
	all over the place like well what was it like to die?
	What immediately occurred to you when you died?
	Are you in a different place now than you were then?
	Are others with you?
	Are you in an environment?
	What kind of an environment are you in?
	And on and on and on.
	Once I had achieved the threshold that you achieved, those are the kinds of questions I would begin to ask.
	Did you?
	The answer is we are just now beginning to ask them.
	Because remember, I am a conservative scientist.
	I've got to be clobbered over the head before I am willing to give in and give up and say, okay, there's enough.
	Now we can ask, go on and ask other questions.
	So these set of experiments described in the Afterlife Experiments book is, is there an afterlife?
	One of the next questions is, what is the afterlife like?
	Now what's interesting about this is that the methods that we've developed, these single-blind
	and double-blind methods, allow us to now ask questions about what's the afterlife like
	in a way that we can confirm it scientifically, as opposed to just getting the medium's story.
	Well, I don't know how you're going to confirm it.
	I mean, if somebody says, look, you know, it's great up here.
	There's McDonald's and Burger King and we live in nice neighborhoods and blah, blah, blah.
	Or we're floating around on clouds with wings.
	Or how are you going to confirm?
	Let me explain how we do this.
	And again, I must admit, it's a little clever.
	You ready?
	Imagine for the moment, and all this is true, that we have a team of mediums, OK?
	A team.
	Yes.
	Multiple mediums.
	And what we do is we have multiple mediums independently read a given sitter.
	And remember, they don't know who the sitter is.
	Gotcha.
	They're blind to the sitter.
	All reading the same subject?
	They're all reading the same sitter.
	Okay.
	But their task is now not simply to verify the existence of a deceased person, but to get specific information from this specific deceased person.
	About what is their life like in the afterlife?
	Yeah, in the afterlife, yes.
	And now, to the extent that the mediums obtain replicable information, independently verified, across mediums, that is specific to the life of a particular deceased person, you then have strong scientific support For some sort of... I'm with you.
	You got it?
	Yeah, of course I've got it.
	But nevertheless, having come to the threshold that you've come to, with people like John Edward and others, inevitably you've heard some things about what life is like, or what existence is like, or consciousness is like, on the other side.
	And once you believe them at one level, then I would like to at least know what you've heard so far.
	I understand these are not controlled experiments yielding results, but what have you heard, Doctor?
	Well, let me tell you the most interesting, detailed information that I've just seen.
	Yes.
	And let me tell you about the context of this particular deceased person, and then I'll give you some of that information.
	Okay.
	Last, February 11th, a little over a year ago, Susie Smith died.
	Now, Susie Smith was a woman who, just before she died, she was almost 90 years old, she had published a total of 30 books in the field of parapsychology and survival of conscience after death.
	In fact, her last book, called The Afterlife Codes, was published just shortly before she died.
	Now, Susie became, so to speak, my adopted grandmother.
	She used to consider me her illegitimate grandson.
	She was a really lovely and very smart woman.
	And when she died, I began a scientific quest to see whether I could determine whether she was, if you would, still here.
	And in fact, I ended up publishing two scientific papers with a total of five different mediums documenting the continued existence of Susie Smith.
	Now, here's where it gets interesting.
	A medium in St.
	Louis, Missouri, her name is Janet, who I, by the way, never met in person.
	I've only spoken to her on the telephone.
	Janet started receiving communication from Susie Smith, and we began an experiment, an ongoing experiment, where five days a week, Monday through Friday, Janet contacts Susie, and then Janet sends me an email.
	Where Susie describes, first of all, what she has witnessed taking place in my life in the previous day.
	Oh.
	And also, she describes what she sees happening in the future in my life.
	Alright, so then obviously, the first important piece of information is, they can see us.
	Yes.
	So the first thing we're able to verify, over and over, Is that we can verify what Lori Campbell and other mediums say, which is our loved ones are only a thought away.
	That's fact number one.
	In fact, we're going to be working on a new book, tentatively titled, Messages from Susie, that describes the whole series of communications and controlled scientific experiments with Susie since she died.
	So the other side can see this side?
	Yes, that's number one.
	Number two, Susie has also now verified, via Janet, that she can see things in the future happening to me before they happen.
	Ah, so now we are to imagine that from the other side they see our linear time progression as a person from 10,000 feet would see a road and a car traveling along a road and everything that it was about to encounter.
	That's right.
	In fact, it's a very good metaphor.
	Thank you, Art.
	That's beautiful.
	It's a very good way of trying to express what... Well, the guy down on the road, obviously, can only see to the horizon at 10,000 feet.
	You're going to be able to see what that car is going to get to in 20 miles, 40 miles.
	Exactly.
	It's a perfect, perfect example.
	I'm going to quote you on that.
	It's beautiful.
	So that's the second thing that we have.
	Now, the third thing that we have is data.
	Indicating that Susie can bring to Janet deceased people that I don't know, who can then be independently verified by their relatives.
	So for example, and I'll just give you an example, this just happened two days ago.
	You ready for this?
	I met a family, a physician and his wife, and they had some deceased relatives, who of course I've never met and know virtually nothing about.
	You're lying down.
	No, I'm sitting.
	You're sitting down.
	Okay.
	I met a family, a physician and his wife, and they had some deceased relatives, who
	of course I've never met and know virtually nothing about.
	When I met this family, because of their deep interest in this work, what I did was, in
	their presence, since they know about John Edward and are very interested in this research,
	I invited Suzy to contact their deceased relatives and bring them to Janet in Missouri.
	Louis, Missouri.
	What I then told them was, and this was on Friday that I did this, on Monday morning I emailed Janet and asked and told Janet that I had met a family who had some deceased loved ones and that I had invited Susie to bring them to her.
	Janet was then to contact Susie and to ask Susie to then invite these people to come to Janet.
	Janet then received information from the deceased people and mailed this information to me.
	Now of course when it came to me I had no idea.
	Whether any of it applied to the family or not, right?
	I then passed the email from Janet, from Suzy, from these deceased people, on to the doctor.
	And?
	This doctor went through the material, and he emailed me back, literally, I got on email a half hour before your show was to begin, and lo and behold, there was his email.
	And his email started off With a title that said something to the effect that Janet and Suzy were more accurate than his tax accountant.
	And he went out to describe all the information that Janet had written in her email that precisely described his father, his deceased father, and other details about their deceased relatives.
	And I would say that the accuracy, if I was scoring it from what he described, was probably close to 90%.
	Holy smokes.
	So what this also says is that people can meet each other in the afterlife.
	Apparently.
	Right?
	They can have relationships in the afterlife.
	Wow.
	And distance is no object.
	Distance is no object.
	Time is no object.
	And apparently I don't know what we are to imagine about the nature of the other side.
	If they can see us, and we cannot generally, or normally, under normal circumstances, see them, then we must imagine some sort of one-way mirror, or something like a one-way mirror, or they have so many more abilities to see us than we do them.
	Right.
	Much more of a struggle for us to see them.
	Yes, because we're more limited than they are.
	And let me give you again a simple explanation for how to understand this.
	I know that you've had on your show various people who have talked about near-death, out-of-body experiences.
	Absolutely.
	And you know that when people have these near-death experiences, they experience light.
	A bright light.
	A bright light.
	Oh, hold it right there.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	We have no choice.
	A bright light.
	Into the light.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Dr. Gary Schwartz is my guest, and that's where we're all going, you know.
	Into the light.
	Don't touch that dial.
	More to come.
	This is a test.
	This is a test.
	but he was still at the top of his game He joined the database
	That turn made his life As a freelance southern french jazz player
	He was a great influence on the music industry He was a great influence on the music industry
	He was a great influence on the music industry He was a great influence on the music industry
	We're doing alright.
	A little driving on a Saturday night.
	Come walk with me.
	Wanna dance the day away Jenny was sweet
	She always smiled for the people she knew On troubled strides
	She had another feeling in her eyes Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh from west of the Rockies
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	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
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	To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	It is indeed my guest is the remarkable Dr. Gary Schwartz and what he has said tonight...
	I don't know how you're going to digest what he said tonight.
	Maybe we'll find out before the hour's over.
	Certainly we'll take some calls.
	I've got a couple of more things that I want to ask the good doctor, and then we will go to calls.
	stay right where you are alright back now to uh...
	doctor gary schwartz Doctor, a couple of other things that I would like to run by you.
	One is an obvious question, and I wonder if anybody has been asked, and that is, of course, everybody wants to know If you have detected in any of the Sessions experiments, or asked, or become aware that there is a Creator, a God, whether any specific religion seems to be ever mentioned, or whether the whole notion of a Creator is not something that has even been broached in the experiments?
	That's a great question.
	What's interesting is that, at least in terms of what people spontaneously tell us from the other side, if you would, in other words, the kinds of things that come through in these one or two hour readings, I can't think of a single reading where any spontaneous conversation about either religion or God was communicated.
	Now that doesn't mean that if we asked deceased people about what is your experience of the God process, or have you seen any angels, or how have your perceptions of religion changed as a result of your experience, that we wouldn't get answers to those questions.
	It's just that, believe it or not, it has never, to my knowledge, spontaneously come up in these readings.
	Isn't that interesting?
	That is extremely interesting, yes.
	Extremely interesting.
	The answer could be that you have not yet asked the question specifically, or made that part of the experiment, or...
	Well, gosh, I'll leave it to everybody's imagination.
	Look, I was watching Larry King, oh gee, I don't know, it seems months ago now, and on Larry King, I think it was Sylvia Brown, and I'm going to have Sylvia back myself pretty soon, and I hope I'm not wrong about that, but I think it was Sylvia Brown, and Larry King Was going to conduct some experiments actually he had the less than fully amazing Randy on with her is my recollection and they really kind of got into it.
	I thought she did comported herself very well in the face of what Randy was Spewing out, but I never found out the results of those experiments and And I know that I guess Larry is not the only one doing this Rosie O'Donnell is doing something along these lines and you've got a lot to say about all of this what?
	I know you've got a lot to say about all of this, and I wonder what it is.
	Well, first of all, the experiment that Randy described on the Larry King Show, if I could be so blunt as to say this, is one of the poorest designed and most inadequate experiments that one could design to test the hypothesis.
	Because although most readers wouldn't remember this, and they're also not scientists, you know, most people watch the program, what James Randi was proposing was that a single sitter be read by Sylvia Brown, and then the single sitter would make a single rating, just an overall global rating, About how this information related to them.
	And then, in addition, this information would be given to other people to rate on some simple, single, global measure.
	And based on that one reading, and that one global measure, they would conclude whether she was a good medium or not.
	That's tantamount to asking Michael Jordan to shoot one basket And then making a decision about whether he's a superstar or not.
	I mean, it's so ridiculous.
	It's so embarrassing.
	What?
	Do you recall how the experiment came out?
	They didn't do the experiment, as far as I know.
	Well, I know they had set it up to do it.
	Well, they talked about it on television.
	And never did it.
	To the best of my knowledge, it was never conducted.
	Well, you're right.
	That certainly wouldn't have been anywhere near the class of experiments that you have done.
	Right.
	Maybe you should be on Larry King.
	Well, it's very interesting about that, because, you know, Larry King, a year ago, had a program where he had a group of mediums, which included John Edward, James Van Praag, and Sylvia Brown, and some skeptics, including Leon Jarref.
	And he had written an article in New York, in Time Magazine, essentially accusing John Edward of being a fraud.
	And John Edward, on this program, I was not on the program, they by the way just conveniently didn't have any scientists on the program.
	John Edward pointed out that he could not have been engaged in fraud.
	In fact, that he had conducted three experiments at that time at the University of Arizona.
	And Leon Jaroff made the following comment on national television.
	Referring to your experiments?
	Referring to me personally.
	Okay.
	He said, oh, Dr. Schwartz.
	He said, Dr. Schwartz believes in the tooth fairy, levitation, UFOs, and the tooth fairy.
	In fact, he repeated the tooth fairy twice.
	He said, Dr. Schwartz is not a credible scientist.
	And that was the end of the discussion about the science.
	Oh, really?
	Now, when that happened, various people called me the next day, were infuriated, and said that I should actually have a lawsuit.
	This is slander, because it's based on no fact, and of course, it's completely derogatory.
	But since I'm not a litigious person, I didn't do anything, okay?
	Well, you're probably a public person, too, just the way they are, so... Exactly.
	Now, listen to this.
	Two weeks ago, On Saturday night, on Larry King, he had on Dr. Phil, who is a person who apparently is on Oprah every Tuesday, and they were talking about the afterlife.
	Dr. Phil made a comment essentially saying that he believed in the afterlife, but there was no scientific evidence addressing the question.
	And Larry King agreed.
	Now the interesting thing was, however, Larry King had been sent a copy of the Afterlife Experiments book by the publisher, Pocket Books, which is a division of Simon & Schuster, asking him, inviting him to have a discussion on this latest science on his television program.
	He had declined to have the science discussed on his show.
	Well, it's unclear, but yet he was actually saying that there was no sign.
	Larry is a pretty good guy.
	You know, I've been on his program.
	I spent a whole hour on his program, and he's a pretty genuine guy.
	He may have never even seen the book.
	It's very possible.
	More than possible.
	Right, it's very possible.
	So when I learned about this, what I suggested to the publisher was that what they should do is send a copy of the book to Dr. Phil, and also to re-contact Larry King's producers, To inform him that Larry King is actually presenting false information to the public about this whole area, and that he should have the Afterlife Experiments book discussed on his show.
	And Larry King, again, producers, declined.
	Yeah, well that's his, let me tell you, that's his producers.
	You know, Larry is very well insulated by his producers.
	I can tell you that right now.
	Is that right?
	Oh, that is right, yes.
	And it's in all likelihood, Larry has never seen the book.
	And what I would suggest is that, believe me, plenty of my listeners will write to Larry and suggest That he pursue this line because obviously this is the scientific line despite statement you made a little while ago about whoever it was who slammed you.
	I wouldn't worry about that.
	I think that Larry is a very reasonable person and if he understands the significance of your research and how carefully it was done compared to what he tried to do, he would have you on.
	I believe that.
	I think that you're right and by the way I hope that your listenership Which really cares about the truth about all this work.
	That they will write to Larry King, or they'll call Larry King.
	And what they'll do is, they'll say, look, this book has appeared.
	This research exists.
	It deserves to be discussed.
	And it's seriously debated.
	And it's real.
	It's real.
	Research, yes.
	This is real.
	This is not vaporware.
	All right, well, that will happen.
	So everybody out there who's got a way to write Larry King, write Larry King and urge him to get some real science on his show, this kind of science.
	You know, I think it's important.
	For the American people to understand your research, to actually hear, as you have described on this program.
	Now, of course, you know, on television you have smaller, even with Larry King, who's got a pretty good long-form TV show as they go, you've got an hour minus breaks.
	That's not a lot of time, assuming he has you on for the entire hour.
	And it's hard to make your case as Succinctly, as you've been able to make it here tonight, but I'm sure with a little practice you could compact it and probably get... I can give ten-minute radio shows, which I do regularly.
	Can you?
	Oh, absolutely.
	I can give three hours, I can give five minutes.
	Depends upon what the environment allows.
	But obviously, you know, the credibility rises greatly as you have more time to actually explain the details of all this.
	Some of them have to be in there.
	What's a tremendous, for me, privilege is that you actually take the time to not only ask the questions and to really listen to the answers, and then come to your own conclusion about the data.
	And that's very reassuring, actually, for your listenership and for the public at large.
	Well, it's the only way I know to do it.
	This is extremely significant, it deserves large national publicity.
	What do you think, this is sort of a social question, what do you think the effect would be on us socially if the country suddenly embraced The hard science of life after death.
	I mean, if there appeared to be incontrovertible evidence, and you get, in my estimation, real close to that, incontrovertible evidence, there's life after death, how would that affect society?
	You know, that is a profound question, of course.
	And in the Afterlife Experiments book, I have a chapter called, How Would Our Lives Change?
	Oh, really?
	Yes.
	And there's a whole chapter devoted to this.
	And the bottom line, and I'll give you some specific examples, the bottom line is that every aspect of life, from science, education, religion, politics, personal lives, will be touched, directly or indirectly, by this shift in consciousness and awareness.
	Let me give you some simple examples.
	Let's take our personal lives.
	If we knew, as an incontrovertible fact, That death, that physical death, was not the end of our life, and that in fact our life was much longer than that.
	We would then be able to re-evaluate what's most important in our lives.
	And by the way, therefore, consider, seriously consider, putting more time into our personal relationships, into our families, into our children, into taking care of the planet, into doing good and responsible things on the earth.
	It would affect our thoughts about war?
	We've talked about a war, about global peace, and so on.
	I'll give you another example.
	Take the legal system.
	If we knew, for example, that life continued, you could ask the question, well gee, let's say a person's been murdered.
	Should they be allowed to testify at their own trial after they've died, using mediums?
	Should they be allowed to speak to the question of the kind of punishment that the That the perpetrator should do?
	How do we conceive of the death penalty once the death penalty is not actually ending life?
	Or, consider the fact that you're deceased and your children are squabbling over the will.
	Do you have a right to revise your will and make sure that it's after death?
	What happens, for example, if you come up with an idea?
	I don't care how good the evidence gets, we're a long way from that one.
	They won't even let lie detector results in.
	Of course.
	But you see, what we have to do is once we entertain this hypothesis seriously, then we have to again allow, we have to look to the future.
	Remember when the Wright brothers were first trying to get the plane off the ground?
	We had to look to the future, right?
	About how far airplanes would come.
	Actually, you know, now this is kind of interesting, Doctor, but the truth of the matter is, after the Wright Brothers flew, a majority of the nation still refused to believe they had done it.
	Now that's the truth.
	Despite the evidence, and there was tons of evidence, people didn't believe it.
	Right.
	And I think that's exactly what's happening in states.
	This research with mediumship, even though people like John Edward do this thing on television all the time.
	And of course, what people think is that he must be cheating.
	By the way, John Edward came to the University of Arizona a few weeks ago, and we did a controlled experiment.
	And partly it was my own personal suggestion to John, and it was partly his own conviction.
	That we wanted to, I wanted to actually see whether or not what he does on television.
	The whole group of process could be brought into the laboratory.
	And we did an experiment with almost 300 people under blind conditions with curtains and complete sequencing in the whole nine yards.
	And much to my absolute amazement, Everything that you see John do on television, we were able to replicate under the controlled conditions.
	You know, I made a sort of a weak attempt to contact John Edward, thinking I would like to interview him.
	I did that, oh, I don't know, about a year ago or so, and didn't really follow up.
	But if you have an avenue to John Edward... I do.
	Would you please tell him that I indeed would like to interview him.
	Sure.
	Particularly after hearing all you have had to say tonight.
	I really think I would like to speak with him on the air.
	I think he would be a great interviewee for you, and I will certainly strongly suggest that he contact you.
	All right.
	Done.
	Doctors, stay right there.
	We're going to go to the phones with Dr. Gary Schwartz in just a moment.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This, of course, is Coast to Coast AM.
	What else in the nighttime?
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	you Be it sight, sound, smell or touch, there's something inside that we need so much.
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	Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
	To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
	To have all these things in our memories.
	And their memory is hard, and they use them to help us to fight!
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	That would be the ride, I guess, at the end of your life, wouldn't it?
	Dr. Gary Schwartz is my guest.
	And some of the information presented tonight should be very challenging, even to the biggest of skeptics out there.
	In a moment, we'll go to the phones.
	Sound of a motor.
	Actually, it simulates the sound of a modem connecting.
	Well, ha, ha, ha.
	Alright, Dr. Gary Schwartz is here and we're about to go to the phones.
	Anything else you'd like to get in, doctor, before we do?
	I think the only thing that I would say is that the most important thing about this work
	ultimately all relates to the topic of love.
	Because the final motivation that connects people, both here and there, is love.
	And that's what the mediums all claim.
	They all claim that our loved ones are only a thought away.
	They all claim that all of us, by the way, have the capability to develop these kinds of skills to various degrees, which of course is also something that can be addressed in future research.
	In other words, mediumship is not exclusive to the ones that, you know, the names that roll off our lips like John Edwards.
	Exactly.
	In fact, the metaphor that I use is that all of us can play basketball.
	We can all learn to make shots.
	Very few of us are going to be Michael Jordans, but most of us can learn to play the game.
	All right, here we go.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Dr. Schwartz.
	Hello.
	Yes, Art.
	A couple of things here.
	Number one, it's a pleasure and an honor to speak to you.
	Thank you.
	I've been listening to you for about three years and tried, I don't know how many times to get in, but I never could.
	I'm out here in a big truck and you and I have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles together here.
	Well, here we are, so fire away.
	Yeah, and Dr. Schwartz, pleasure to talk to you too.
	Pleasure to talk to you.
	Has anything ever come up on one other thing?
	You've filled a void now.
	I've always felt like there's got to be something more than just this, and you've really provided something for me tonight.
	You never know how much, but has anything come up about the possibility of reincarnation?
	Okay, let's tackle that.
	Thank you.
	Reincarnation.
	Wonderful question.
	Here's what's sort of novel about the implications of the discoveries that we've made.
	You see, if our energy is like the light from distant stars, and it continues forever, then it's improbable that one could take all of that energy and squeeze it back into a single cell.
	So therefore the idea that we could take all of our consciousness and put it back into a single cell is improbable.
	What is more probable is that what we can do is with our consciousness seed new cells as opposed to simply completely reincarnating.
	So rather than it being the question of reincarnation versus survival of consciousness, we come to an interesting idea of the possibility of reincarnation plus Survival of consciousness.
	And that's actually consistent with some of the most ancient visions of religion.
	About how, for example, in Christianity, how Christ could still be alive and well, if you would, and simultaneously be seeding, or living, millions of people simultaneously.
	Well, millions would claim he is, so.
	Exactly.
	Anyway, onward.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Gary Schwartz.
	How are you?
	Okay, sir.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Houston, Texas.
	Okay.
	And you know, it's really interesting, and I believe that destiny is one, and that's what we're talking about.
	And as far as your consciousness, in July 17, 1997, I asked an observation telescope to look at a certain point of light.
	And I did that because I had a back surgery, and I had lost my memory.
	And I used my computer, and I figured maybe I can look back and capture some Known points in time and come back.
	And ironically, rather than look at past lives or contacting with people, the principle of being able to have space and time together and being able to have known points in time, I actually used, believe it or not, the Hubble telescope.
	And I did that to Stephen Hawking.
	And last, a couple of Augusts ago, he ended up with severe bruises and a really, really bad situation.
	And I was tackling a problem on a computer basically trying to take disorder into order and I figured maybe I could help myself recall and remember.
	And I actually took points in place and time on July 17, 1997 and asked for a known point and then I predicted it slightly out into the future and it gave a curve.
	The anthropic principle of being able to take a memory and a space and your being, if you can... How did you associate that with a specific point of light, as a matter of curiosity?
	I took the most distant point of light that was the best known point of light, which is a point called 133247.
	It's the most distant part of the galaxy.
	That we can see?
	Well, that the Hubble telescope could see.
	Gotcha.
	Here's an example.
	I deal in technologies and... We don't have a lot of time here.
	I understand, but what I did is I picked colors of the spectrum that were slow enough to be able to predict, and I put known points in time to see where those happened and happened and happened, and believe it or not, it came through a constellation of Capellas through Hercules and ended up getting me in contact All right, I think I've got it.
	Howard Jones and James Wilkie and what that had done is I ended up
	being in contact with someone that affected my life and All right, I think I've got it doctor it might fit into
	this whole You know everybody now that I talked to almost is talking
	about this concept of non locality that everything is
	interconnected virtually in one sense or another to everything else which I think is sort of what you're saying
	to and that that information derived
	I'm going to be back in a minute.
	from remote viewers, maybe from people like this, maybe from Mr. Edward, exists everywhere.
	I mean, virtually is available to everyone, everywhere.
	It's like some giant pool of cosmic information.
	Absolutely.
	The only interesting wrinkle that the Afterlife Experiments book proposes is that if the universe is literally filled With conscious beings, some of whom may have lived on the Earth and other planets, then phenomena like precognition, and phenomena like remote viewing, and phenomena like healing may actually involve some sort of, if you would, spirit-assisted capabilities.
	So the whole issue of genius, or the whole issue of people who are the Mozarts of the The Hawking's?
	Yeah, the Hawking's.
	That they may actually be receiving information from deceased individuals who have come before us.
	In any of your experiments, or in any of your discussions with mediums, have you received any information that any of them have contacted what they believe to be a non-human entity?
	Or one that was never human?
	That was yes?
	The answer is yes.
	I mean, what's very interesting is when you talk to mediums about their conscious experience, many of them, for example, believe that they are receiving communication either from, for example, from angels who have never lived on the earth, or from, quote, ETs, or beings from other planets.
	And of course, that work is even more controversial in some respects than survival of consciousness per se.
	And one of the things that science can address in the future are things like what we call the Angel Hypothesis, or for example, the Guide Hypothesis, or for example, the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis.
	All of these questions can be addressed in future research.
	East of the Rockies, you're on air with Dr. Gary Schwartz.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Dr. Schwartz, and to some extent you, Art, also, I've got this story that I haven't discussed in 20 years, and I had an experience with a ghost.
	I was in Germany on my honeymoon.
	My wife and I were traveling all over, and we spent about a week there.
	Well, we went to visit Neuschwanstein, and that's located in Schwangau.
	Around evening time, the way we traveled, we didn't have any pre-arranged reservations, so we just picked places wherever we went.
	And somebody steered me to this place that they said was being remodeled, and it hadn't been used since World War II, and it was a former barracks.
	Well, we went in there and tried it.
	It looked clean and brand new, and they were still painting, in fact, and we were their first guest.
	They really didn't know what to do with us, actually, and they didn't know whether to turn us away or not, but we had no place to stay, so they gave us a finished room down the hall.
	And it was way the heck down, and you know, if it was a barracks, it was kind of a shotgun-like arrangement, but we were way down in the middle of it, and when we got in our room, it started storming, and I said, you know, this is kind of spooky being in this barracks here, and my wife and I were sitting in bed, And lo and behold, the shutters outside started to clatter, and we had lightning and all this kind of stuff.
	Well, then I heard something, and my wife heard it too.
	It was the sound of hobnail boots marching in unison down the hall.
	And, you know, I mean, they just went past us in the hall.
	I said, look.
	Her name's Patty.
	I said, Patty, look.
	Don't go to sleep.
	I normally don't get scared by things like this, but I said, I'm scared.
	But as it is with my wife, she goes to sleep regularly at 10 o'clock regardless and fell asleep.
	Well, there I was.
	So finally I tossed around and I finally got to sleep.
	Well, about 2 o'clock in the morning, and this has never happened to me before, I just shot bolt upright in bed.
	I had no reason to.
	You know, I had no dream or anything like that.
	All of a sudden, my eyes were wide open.
	I sat straight up in bed.
	And?
	At the foot of the bed was a glowing orb.
	I mean, that thing had to be at least four feet tall.
	Wow.
	It wasn't a white light.
	It was sort of a yellowy-white light, you know?
	And I knew it was a man.
	I knew it was a man.
	I couldn't speak.
	I was so scared.
	I looked at that thing, and I couldn't even get words to come out of my mouth.
	I couldn't move my left arm to wake my wife up.
	And finally, I managed to push her and wake her up.
	I turned around and looked at her.
	When I looked back, the thing was gone.
	Now, I don't believe in ghosts.
	I still don't believe in them.
	I'm a Christian scientist, okay?
	If you know anything about that.
	You know that we just don't give credence to that, but I'm telling you, I saw this thing.
	Well, I certainly appreciate the story, sir.
	Now, lots of people have been recently telling stories about these manifestations of these orbs, these balls of energy or light or whatever they are, and I'm sure you've heard many similar stories.
	Absolutely.
	In fact, we were talking about this earlier, and let me give you the explanation for this.
	We normally assume that, because when the sun goes down it looks dark, we normally assume that in the absence of sunlight there is no light.
	That's right.
	But what we forget is that our eyes only see a narrow spectrum of light.
	So, for example, we don't see infrared and we don't see ultraviolet.
	If we could see infrared and ultraviolet, we would discover that it's never dark.
	In fact, the universe is much brighter than what we see with our eyes.
	So what happens theoretically when we die is that we're no longer constrained by our eyes, and that's the reason why we can see ever brighter light.
	I've talked to a lot of experimenters, sorry to interrupt, who have been using night vision equipment, which depends on the infrared.
	And they have been seeing things they absolutely cannot account for.
	I've heard some remarkable, just absolutely remarkable stories about things seen with this equipment.
	Now that simply extends our vision into the infrared and it doesn't begin to go into the other spectrums.
	So once we become aware that most of the light that exists in the universe we cannot see with our naked eyes, we immediately begin to recognize all of this possibility.
	And that's what I'm trying to convey, is that there's a very good reason to say that these, quote, ghost phenomena are real.
	The problem is that we get so scared by them.
	I mean, put yourself in the shoes of a dead person.
	You want to reveal yourself, but whenever you do, you frighten the people you're trying to communicate with.
	That's right.
	Very frustrating.
	You have two books I want to be sure and get the plugs in.
	You've got The Afterlife Experiments, the one that we've been talking about tonight, Breakthroughs, Scientific Evidence of Life After Death, Good Hard Science, and then, of course, The Living Energy Universe, your first book.
	So, Afterlife Experiments is available now on Amazon.com, through my website, however you want to get there, and I guess it's sort of a longer, more detailed, very specific version of what people heard to some degree tonight.
	That's correct.
	However, what's important is that the book was co-written by a professional writer who speaks in plain English.
	And we have all these transcripts and we tell the story behind the story.
	And so what happens is that it brings all of this to light and to life.
	And the book was written for whether you're a believer or an agnostic or a skeptic.
	It's written in a way that literally anyone who has an interest in the discovery process and the adventure of exploration can enjoy this kind of thing.
	And I wrote this with the hope that anybody who was interested in this topic, that it would be accessible, that it would be fun, it would at least be entertaining, if not challenging in terms of raising our consciousness about all this.
	Well, I hope a lot of people go grab it up.
	Wild Card Line, not a lot of time, but you're on the air with Dr. Schwartz.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	This is the first time I've called you, so I'm a little bit nervous.
	I've had a question.
	I've been wanting to ask you, and this guest just seemed to be the The perfect time to ask it.
	Go right ahead.
	As far as like when you cross over or whatever, I believe like the internet has a lot of energy and stuff behind it and then like you have a lot of energy in yourself and when you cross over, do you think there's any way that someone from the other side or whatever you want to call it could communicate through the internet now or something like that?
	That's a dumb question.
	No, no, no, that is not a dumb question.
	Doctor, I've talked to I don't know how many people who have said the internet is a developing ultimate neural network of its own.
	Right.
	I would say that it is completely plausible that deceased individuals are going to be able to activate all of this technology.
	Particularly as we design it in such a way where we allow them to receive it.
	And so, one of the things that we're doing is we're actually developing new technology, drawing on internet phenomena and audio phenomena and light phenomena, taking advantage of the latest technology, but designing it in such a way where, quote, spirits can activate the technology.
	Well, that's all we need.
	The dead on the internet.
	That's right.
	It's already clogged enough.
	We have a motto in the lab.
	You know what the motto is?
	My students sometimes laugh at me about it.
	It's semi-humorous, which is, it's going to get worse before it gets even worse.
	Doing these kind of experiments must be fun.
	I guess the only way that you can be reimbursed in any way at all at this point in your career is by doing what you have done, and that is writing books, correct?
	That's correct.
	In fact, there's no way to raise money for this kind of research.
	Precisely.
	The NIH doesn't support it, NSF doesn't support it, private foundations even don't support it.
	So, save for a few anonymous donors, we and the mediums have paid this virtually all out of pocket.
	Gotta do it yourself.
	It's do-it-yourself research.
	Well, I can't tell you how I want to thank you for being here tonight.
	We will do another program, I'm sure, soon.
	Your information is absolutely astounding.
	Well, thank you so much for having me.
	You are the ideal person to discuss this material, let me tell you.
	Take care, my friend.
	You too.
	Good night.
	All right, as I promised, I'm going to go get on the 40 meter amateur band.
	And I'm gonna be near 72.25, actually more like 72.23 or whatever I can find that's, you know, clear.
	Close to that point.
	So in about five minutes, I'm gonna be on the 40 meter band as requested by somebody who fast blasted me about an hour ago.
	So, again, 40 meter band, lower side band.
	I don't know, 72, 23, or somewhere in there, somewhere where there's a clear frequency close to that, you will hear me.
	My call letters, by the way, my ham call is W6OBB.
	Whiskey, six, ocean, bravo, bravo.

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