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April 2, 2002 - Art Bell

02:46:00

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Gary Schwartz - Proof of Life on the Other Side

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50:25

gary schwartz

01:04:09

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in all 24 time zones covered by this program, which is Coast to Coast AM.
		I'm Art Bell, and it is great to be here this morning.
		I'm going to do something tonight that I promised I would do, I don't know, a week or two ago, something like that.
		Somebody called up and talked about the man who had attached balloons to his lawn chair and thought it was a big old urban legend type deal.
		Well, it isn't, and I have historic audio to prove it.
unidentified		You this is the wildest story you've ever heard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Larry Walters and his lawn chair would hit mainstream press and then it sort of went away and got buried and returned as an urban legend.
		It is not an urban legend and nobody ever knew any evidence existed.
		But it does.
		I've got it from tonight.
		You're going to hear it.
		In the next hour, Dr. Gary F. Schwartz is going to be here talking about proof of life on the other side.
		He is a Harvard psychiatrist.
		Really, really interesting.
		So all of that's going on.
		Welcome to the big one up in Kellisfell, Montana.
		KOFI, as we jump across KOFI, 1180 on the dial.
		And during the day, 50,000 watts.
		At night, a respectable 10,000 watts.
		It ought to just sort of rage across Montana and western states.
		GM Dave Ray, P.D., Scott Davis.
		Thank you both very much.
		Welcome to the weirdest radio show on the planet.
		So, if everybody will stay put, coming up in a moment, boy, do I have, well, no, I don't have a tale for you.
unidentified		I have proof for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You know, everybody did think it was an urban legend coming up in just a moment.
		One of the most remarkable pieces of audio you're ever going to hear in your whole life.
		Tell you more about it in a second.
		Listen, I'm well aware that our website is approaching 100 million hits, truly a historic number.
		And in view of my age, we'll never hit it again.
		We call them encounters.
		Our website only counts main page hits, and it stands, as I just clicked, at 99,792,978.
		So we have concocted a special screen that will pop up for the 100 millionth visitor with a special magic keyword so we know who you are.
		Now, what we're going to do for you, I don't know.
		Maybe I'll talk to you on the air.
		Maybe we'll send you something or another.
		Certainly, your name is going to get on the air as probably the one and only 100 millionth visitor.
		Can you match a lot of hits to a website, baby?
		That's a lot of hits.
		All right.
		Well, anyway, here it comes.
		You've never heard anything like this in your life.
		If you have a recorder, I urge you to roll it about right now.
		And what you are about to hear is not the urban legend, but the true story of what a man named Larry Walters did.
		He hooked up balloons to his lawn chair.
		And, oh boy, did he go flying.
		And I just, I would not have believed it until one day a man got hold of me and said that he had the documentation in the form of two-way radio communications that went on between this man and his wife on the ground and authorities on the ground and all the rest of this.
		And it was a true mind blower, and I've meant for a long time to repeat it.
		So tonight I'm going to do so.
		So at the network, if you would please, segment number one, roll it.
		My guest on at the last minute is Mark Berry.
		Mark, welcome to the program.
unidentified		Well, welcome.
		Thank you.
		I'm in Houston, Texas, and glad to be on your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Houston, huh?
		All right.
		First of all, most people, as I've said, you know, I've read the story of Larry Walters to my audience a couple of times, the man who attached balloons to his wheelchair, or wheelchair, lawn chair.
		But a lot of people, I think, don't believe it's a real story for starters.
		How did you get onto this?
		And it is a real story, isn't it?
unidentified		It is.
		And for those who are not familiar with the lawn chair pilot, you know, when we explain this incredible, controversial story, most of your listeners probably will not believe what we're about to tell them.
		I mean, it's just a crazy story.
		But I'll give you a little history.
		The reason why I put together and dedicated some research on a website for Larry Walters was a few years ago I had an aviation website and I kind of stuck an article on there about Larry Walters.
		Next thing I knew, I was getting a bunch of emails from people from all over the world basically saying, oh, come on, this is one of those urban legends and, you know, this is not true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it does sound like one.
unidentified		Well, of course, but it was documented in many newspapers and magazines and so on.
		And so after I started getting all these emails, I decided to do a little research and found out that there was an audio file from a C V organization out in California called React.
		And they're a nonprofit organization that basically monitors the C V community.
		And they just happened to be recording what was going on back in 1982.
		And so they had this audio file.
		Well, they had never let anybody do anything with it.
		When I told them that I had been in communication with Larry's family and that I had done extensive research and I was doing this out of respect for Larry and his family, I was not doing anything To make Larry look like a psycho.
		He was a very professional man.
		I say that in past tense because he's passed away.
		And they agreed to let me take the audio file and turn it into digital audio, excuse me.
		And now it's on my website.
		Even now, people still kind of have a little hard time believing it's true, but it's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Before the hour is out, we will give the website URL, but I don't want to do it right now.
unidentified		That's fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It'll crash your site.
unidentified		That's okay.
unidentified		That's a good problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You'll learn where your band with the limits are.
unidentified		I'm sure I'll hear from ISP tomorrow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, first of all, I don't think what he did, and this may be a comment on me, but I don't think what he did was so crazy.
		I've had the dream all my life of flight.
		Broke my arm trying to hang glide.
		Actually, crashing is when I broke my arm.
		But I've had this dream all my life.
		And so I kind of think what he did was neat, really neat, really.
		And what do you know about his motivation?
		Do you know anything at all about what he was thinking when he lashed all this together?
unidentified		Yeah, and that's a very good point, because I was thinking about that right before the show this evening, that, you know, everybody has some type of fantasy.
		And a lot of us guys have this fantasy of doing something crazy, like going out and, you know, flying in a balloon or something.
		And Larry did what a lot of us just haven't done, and he actually went out and did it.
		And to answer your question, Larry, from what I know, from my research, he attempted to join the Air Force and could not get in for, I believe, reasons of poor vision.
		And so he said as a child he would watch these airplanes go over his house all the time.
		And so he decided one day he was going to build his own craft.
		And that was his inspiration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But his craft, of course, was his lawn chair.
unidentified		His lawn chair and some weather balloons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And some weather balloons.
unidentified		A little unorthodox.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've often wondered how many weather balloons it would take to lift a lawn chair.
unidentified		Well, we know it took 40, 35 or 40 to get him up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yes, but that shot him up pretty quick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, he off the ground?
unidentified		Oh, yeah, he sailed so quick that he lost his glasses on launch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
unidentified		And went up to 16,000 feet before leveling up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This would be a few balloons too many.
unidentified		Yeah, I'd say so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, my dream was always to sort of hover maybe 100 feet above the trees or something like 50 feet above the tree level, something like that.
unidentified		That was his intentions.
unidentified		In fact, if you read my website, it talks exactly about that, how his plan was to lazily float around the L.A. area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I meant to ask you that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where was Larry?
unidentified		Larry was in a suburb outside of Los Angeles when this whole thing occurred.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I'm not a big expert on airports, but I know LAX is really, really controlled airspace.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Along with Chicago, you know, O'Hare and Kennedy and some of the other big ones, they're really severely controlled.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so they get really nervous when they see things like lawn chairs going to that sort of altitude.
unidentified		Well, I'm a pilot myself, and I know that there are many rules and regulations you have to follow to the T. And if you do just the slightest thing wrong in airspace, especially around LAX, you're going to hear about it.
		And so Larry really did some things wrong.
		Had he?
		Oh, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, the fact that he was going to be in LAX airspace.
unidentified		Absolutely.
		In fact, his ground crew had notified the FAA authorities and told them what was going on after launch.
		He couldn't do it beforehand because obviously they would stop him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He had a ground crew?
unidentified		Oh, yes.
		Yeah.
		In fact, what's really funny, what you're going to hear on the tape is the authorities were contacting him and they kept asking, what airport did he take off from?
		And they're like, we didn't take off from an airport.
		We took off at my girlfriend's house.
		So they're trying to get a little idea of what's going on here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so then the communication, at least at the beginning, was, I take it, between Larry in the chair and his girlfriend?
unidentified		Yes, there's several characters involved.
		Larry Walters is the lawn chair pilot, as we refer to him.
		Carol is Larry's girlfriend.
		She dominates the conversation.
		She's basically freaking out on the audio tape because things didn't start out very well because he prematurely launched before.
		And then you'll hear the ground crew.
		There's a gentleman named Ron Richland, and they're based at Carol's house.
		And then you'll hear the authorities.
		But one thing I will say, you get your audience to imagine this.
		You've got a guy in a lawncher with these 40 helium balloons, probably going up 100 plus feet above the lawn chair.
		It's an incredible sight.
		He's floating over LAX.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		His 40 helium balloons were how far up above him?
unidentified		I would say close to 100 feet above him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
unidentified		Yeah, if you look at the photos on the website, you'll see the pictures taken during and before flight.
		So you've got this guy.
		He's got a balloon.
		He's got a gun in his hand because a pellet gun because his intentions was to shoot the balloons one at a time so he can descend.
		And so you've got this guy with the sodas, the sandwiches.
		You've got a gun.
		And he's prepared.
		And he even brought a second pair of glasses, which he did need because he lost the first pair when he launched.
		And so he drifts over LAX, okay, and a TWA pilot spots him.
		And you can imagine the conversation that went on in the cockpit.
		And so what was reported was the TWA pilot reports to LAX saying, LAX, we've got a guy up here in a lawn chair and balloons, and he's got a gun.
		And so it's like, you want to repeat that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good powers of observation on the part of a pilot who must have been passing the lawn chair fairly quickly.
unidentified		Exactly.
		So you can imagine if they wanted to report that or not.
		Well, he caused quite a bit of trouble with the FAA at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		they went crazy did larry managed Do you know offhand?
		He must have had a plan.
		In other words, he thought these balloons would take him how high?
unidentified		Oh, he only wanted to lift off a couple hundred feet, like you said.
unidentified		And he had no intentions on going over LAX, nor did he plan on shooting up to 16,000 feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, at 16,000 feet, there is oxygen.
		Well, there is oxygen, but not very much.
		Above about 12 or 13,000 feet, when I was in the Air Force, we put on masks.
unidentified		Right, and that's the way it is today in the civilian world as well.
		But at 16,000 feet, you do have enough, but you'll start feeling kind of wheezy.
		But he wasn't up there for that long.
		He went up and down.
		In fact, when you listen to the audio tape, you'll hear him reporting his altitude.
		One time he's at 8, next time he's at 6, next time he's at 10,000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did he know how high he was?
unidentified		I believe he had an altimeter with him.
		I see.
		He was prepared.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sounds like it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was his girlfriend's attitude about this?
unidentified		Well, she was, him and Carol, Larry and Carol planned this quite detailed.
		They had the maps out.
		I've got photos of them laying out everything.
		And they went over everything with a fine-tooth comb.
		And she was really into it.
		And I think his friends didn't think he was going to do it.
		But Larry was determined.
		And it's just an incredible story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's not too many people who would plan and then actually execute something like this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They would dream of it, but to actually get right down there in the pits and start filling the balloons and all the rest of that, there's not too many people.
unidentified		And that's why Larry is seen as a herald to many people.
		I've gotten emails from people in Europe that said, you know, there is actually a lawn chair balloon now that they have over in Europe where there's several little balloons strapped to a lawn chair.
		And they're selling them like hotcakes over there.
		They just think Larry is the greatest inspiration to many of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, how did he get back down?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did he manage to, in fact, shoot the balloons one by one?
unidentified		And that's a great question.
		What you're not going to hear on the tape is the descent.
		And I'll tell you what happens.
		Larry is now descending.
		He realizes he's endangering himself.
		And so he starts shooting these balloons.
		And the story goes, and this is what his sister had told me over the phone when I talked to her, that Larry's descending, and he's going over this suburb of L.A., and he's going over this old man's yard, and this old man is in the backyard reading the newspaper on a lawn chair.
		He looks up, he sees Larry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here comes Larry.
unidentified		Yeah, here comes Larry.
		Boom.
		Right in front of him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What happened to Larry?
		So, in other words, his plan did work then.
		He was descending at a good slow rate if he could sort of drift over this guy's yard and then plop down.
unidentified		Yeah, he landed safely, and he was surrounded by kids, and the kids took the lawn chair from him, and he said to this day he regrets it because he said the Smithsonian wanted the lawn share.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm astounded that there's any audio of this.
		I had no idea such a thing existed.
		And that'll be most of the country as well.
		They'll be all hearing this for the very first time.
		Apparently, it's not out much elsewhere, is it?
unidentified		Well, no, it is not anywhere.
		In fact, I've been given exclusive rights to post this on my personal website, and nobody has done it before, and I'm the only one who's been allowed to do that because I've done it.
		I've done a lot of research, and I've done it all in good taste for Larry's memory and his family.
		And there are some big fans of Larry Walters who are quite familiar with this audio tape, but there are many people who don't even know the story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm kind of one of them.
		The authorities, I take it, after the children, the authorities probably found Larry.
		I'm sorry, what was that?
		I said after the children took the launcher, I assume the authorities found Larry.
unidentified		Yes, they found him quite quick.
		And at first, the FAA didn't know what he had done.
		They knew he had done something wrong.
		They knew he had violated some rules, but they actually could not do anything to him until they figured out.
		And he was fined, but it really wasn't that big of a deal.
		And later he went on a little touring circuit and went on David Letterman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would imagine even the FAA would have some bit of sense of humor about this.
unidentified		I think privately they snickered about it and only did what they had to do because, well, that's the FAA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so coming up after the break at the bottom of the hour, you're going to hear what nobody else has ever heard.
		The actual voice of Larry Walters and his girlfriend and others as he did what he said he was going to do up in a lawn chair.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		All right, so we're back live, and that was part number one.
		Part number two is the compelling, incredible, actual evidence, the audio evidence of this flight, and you're going to want to listen very carefully to the wife who is, you know, like totally freaking out, even though she helped plan this for Larry.
		Now, I should also tell you, I'm working on a guest right now who makes some pretty wild claims.
		He claims, now, he's got this contraption that I'm not sure about yet.
		I'm not sure about it at all.
		Using a Briggs and Stratton engine, and he apparently doesn't have a large enough engine to power a man, but he claims that just a little bit bigger Briggs and Stratton engine and this device would provide personal flight.
		You know, like it would be a backpack kind of deal.
		And you know me, I'm absolutely riveted, fascinated with all of this sort of thing.
		And so I may pursue him as a guest.
		I'm not sure yet.
		I may pursue him as a guest.
		At any rate, I will continue to pursue these stories.
		And if you have not yet turned on your tape recorder, you should have, you know, for the background that I just gave you in the first segment, then you're going to want to get it on during the break because I'm telling you folks, this audio is just, it's beyond anything you've ever heard in your whole life.
		So crack out a tape recorder and you'll have a little bit of history by the time the hour is over.
		At any rate, this half hour is over, and when we get back, we'll go right into the audio of what Larry Walters did, the actual communications by radio.
		Of course.
unidentified		I can see the real heart.
		Cause when you shook me, took me out of my work, I woke up.
		Suddenly I just woke up to the heart of me.
		When you find that you love the beauty of me.
		Cause when you gotta tell that love you don't take care of.
		Then you better beware of the heart of me.
		One day you're up.
		We turn around.
		You'll find your world.
		It's coming down.
		It happened to me.
		And it's gonna happen to you.
		Would you like to ride in my beautiful blue?
		We could float among the stars together, you and I. For we can fly.
		We can fly.
		Up and away.
		My beautiful.
		My beautiful.
		The world's in love.
		The world's in love.
		To recharge bells in the Kingdom of Nine.
		From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the premier radio network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here we go.
		Here comes Mark Berry.
		Mark, are you there?
unidentified		I am here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so where we hear this tape begin is when?
unidentified		Well, what you're about to hear is the actual conversations between Larry Walters, his ground crew, and the local and federal authorities.
		And the tape begins right after liftoff.
		Now, keep in mind, he had tied his lawn chair to the bumper of his Jeep.
		And there was a picture taken right before he took off.
		But what happened was he took off prematurely.
		The lines broke.
		And so the first thing you're going to hear is that he lost his glasses and his girlfriend Carol is freaking out.
		Everything started off really bad.
		And so that's where you're going to start the tape.
		And it's going to go 12, 14.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounds like he had about 20 balloons too many, and he came out like a rocket.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He did.
unidentified		He did a little error on his calculations, but for the most part, it's an exciting tape to listen to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, okay folks, here we go.
unidentified		Can you read me, anyone?
		Ron, the center is straight, can you read me over?
		Ron, no, I can hear you.
		Okay, evidently, I lost my glasses.
		Ron, come in, come in, come in there, you gotta come down if you can't see, come in there.
		I've got my other glasses.
		I can see perfectly, don't worry.
		Everything is okay.
		notify all the proper authorities, etc.
		We can't be alright.
		I can't be.
		Are you okay?
		Just please get there.
		We can see you.
		Are you okay?
		I mean, okay, but you're a very far way over.
		Okay, keep talking.
		We can't see you.
		We are okay.
		Okay, I'm.
		I'm okay.
		I'm rising.
		Now the code 1,500 feet.
		You can't wait to go.
		Listen to me.
		I'm coming over the dog.
		Over.
		Oh, man.
		Don't worry.
		Let us know where you can come pick you up.
		We'll be exactly where you are.
		We'll be over.
		Mary, keep talking.
		Yeah, I'm OK.
		We're fine.
		Can you see yet?
		Are you in tears, guys?
		I'm a clear, close guy.
		You can see perfectly.
		Everything's clear.
		Okay.
		Everything's clear over.
		Are you heading towards the ocean still or I have a guy's other way?
		I'm heading towards the ocean.
		I can see Marineland right now.
		Oh my God, you're going to a ocean already.
		Okay, have you called up?
		Have you...
		Okay, have you...
		If you get to a ocean, land over by my...
		Wait, do you got?
		Make it a damn going to inland.
		Notify LAX.
		Over.
		Opposite right now.
		What's your opposite?
		2,300 C. 2,300.
		2,300.
		We can see you.
		We can see your class customers.
		We can't see you, but we see your customers.
		Oh.
		Okay.
		Notify.
	Is someone notified LAX?
	Get notified LAX!
	applause
	Mary, talk again.
	Elevation 2,500.
	Everything is okay.
	Hey, everybody, heading up to come and get down now.
	Cut your goods and come down now.
	Everyone wants you down now.
	Can you please?
	It would be unsafe.
	There's houses.
	It's unsafe.
	If I get to a safe terrain, yes.
	He said if you get to a safe terrain, he will, but now he comes down and talk to houses and needs a flat land.
	Okay, if you have any flat land, please tell us who you are and come down immediately.
	Please, can you hear me?
	Yes, I can read you over.
	You have to keep talking.
	I mean, just constantly talk for me.
	Hold me, stop.
	Oh.
	Larry, what's under you right now?
	I'm moving away from the tower, and what's directly under me is the fog.
	And I can see the ocean, but I am moving slightly away from it.
	So I'm picking up an easterly wind current.
	Over.
	Okay.
	As soon as you get on this level terrain, come on and start descending.
	Jerry, what directions are you headed right now?
	We're on the airport right now.
	I am headed north, slightly east.
	We can see your garrulous, but not you.
	You're over.
	You're like north of our house right now.
	Can you try to find some kind of...
	Negative.
	I'm over residential areas over.
	Okay, you're looking over Paul 30s.
	What directions are you heading right now?
	Let's see.
	I'm east of Paul's 30s.
	I'm more or less just kind of right now.
	I'm just mo in mobile.
	I'm kind of stabilized right here.
	Moving, you're just in one spot.
	You're right.
	You're over us.
	We can see you, so you've got to be, you have to be kind of north of our house right here.
	Over.
	You're hotel 30, it's north of our house.
	Can you see anything besides just houses only zero?
	As the airport been notified over.
	Don't get forward because they need a lot of questions.
	Okay, just keep throwing up your directions anymore, but it's after your alternator every time you came.
	We'll do over.
	We can see you now.
	We see you right over north of us.
	You can see the whole craft.
	If I wanted to come down to it, it'd be very hazardous, even if I wanted to.
	There are all houses, there are open fields.
	Over.
	There's no open field, only houses.
	Okay, if you keep coming this way, we're heading this way.
	If you slowly release the balloons, they can track you with the truck, and they can help you.
	The people down here can help you come down safely in the city.
	Can you hear me?
	Over.
	Yes, I can hear you over.
	Well, you try to come down slowly, and you can always, if you start coming down and it's not working, you can always kind of go off on a little bit if you just come too fast down, but they're going to try to track you.
	Altitude's 4,750 feet.
	All systems are normal up here.
	They're coming down to the visual area now.
	But I can't possibly.
	What?
	How many roads are there in 444?
	444, yeah.
	42, I think.
	44.
	I'll never rap.
	What is it?
	Okay, 42.
	Over.
	Keep talking.
	altitude 5000 feet.
	Can you track you?
	Is that coming down a little?
	And then see if they can track you.
	Over.
	It'd be very hazardous if I did right now.
	Over.
	We got the glasses.
	Is it right?
	We got the glasses and they're okay.
	Nothing's wrong with the glasses down here.
	Over.
	Well, that's good news.
	Good news, Azir.
	Good news of you when you land.
	Did you please?
	Oh, we can see you over here, come right over us now.
	Try to, try to look.
	Can you see us down here over?
	Well, directly over here?
	You're coming and you're going to be jumping over us.
	Oh, and if you've got a minute or two, can open and see if you can see us over.
	Okay, I'll be looking for you.
	We're trying to see your baroons, but maybe when you get over, you're going to go into it.
	You're going to go into a good stop.
	Can you see us down now?
	Can you see us over?
	No, I'm almost 6,000 feet over.
	I can't see much of anything except for a lot of houses.
	Over.
	Can you look down at house today?
	You're looking at my house right now.
	Over.
	Can you hear me?
	Are your house houses right now?
	Over.
	Jerry, can you hear me?
	Are you are you enjoying it?
	Over.
	Jerry, can you hear me?
	Over.
	Oh, Carol, let's point to channel 14.
	Over.
	Alrighty.
	KLW 901-6-02.
	This is County Artillery at KBW-8882 Unit 66.
	Sir, have you identified your location at this time?
	I can from my house, which is across 15,000 feet.
	I'm over an airport.
	I think it's Long Beach Airport.
	Over.
	They should have me on radar.
	Over.
	Roger, what kind of service can I take for you as location with me, Jack?
	And also in my later.
	I'm planning for a gradual descent.
	And what we're on the descent, I don't know.
	And I can see a few, I believe I see the interchange of the...
	I can see a full way, which is probably a fall fight.
	So that would make it to Moscow's full way.
	I mean, the, uh, uh, 1PTL point, over.
	KLW 91602, uh, stay at the end of your point of departure.
	My point of departure was 1633 West 73 and Teeth O. This is T.L.W. I want to talk to you.
	I'm having difficulty in reaching the face over.
	Could you please please?
	TLW 90160.
	I'm talking with a five-part portable CD handheld unit.
	Hold up.
	I'll take you into conversation.
	This is KRR-91405 ground control of am I being copied over?
	The closest airport would be 2RD7 at the closest.
	Correct airports would be closest in my departure.
	Mr. Bell.
	I'm going to stop it right there, and I'll let listeners listen to the rest of it.
	I'm afraid it's getting hard to listen because he's going out of range there with the CV.
	But if they want to listen to it, they're welcome to go to my website.
	There's about three or four more minutes there as he's talking with those agencies, but it's getting out of range.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they just couldn't get it through their heads, could they?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That he didn't take off from any airport.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he's sitting up there in his lawn chair trying to figure out the closest airport he could name that would make them happy.
unidentified		Right, and they're going, okay, what kind of avionics do you have?
		Do you have this type of frequency?
		And he's like, no, you don't understand.
		I've got a C D in my hand.
		And he goes, well, what's the color of your balloon?
		He goes, it's not a balloon, sir.
		It's multiple balloons.
		He goes, are you telling me?
		And he goes on and on and on.
		And so it's just hilarious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, why don't you go ahead and let us hear about the last two or three minutes of it.
unidentified		Okay, is it sound okay?
		I'll hold my phone up at the speaker.
		No, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can hear it fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You go right ahead.
unidentified		Okay, I'll play a couple more minutes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, go ahead.
unidentified		Okay.
		All right, airport.
		Roger, that's fine.
		Sir, can you give me the direction of your trip in the wind loft, over?
		Thank you.
		I suspect KLW and I'm not the same.
		I can make out the facts.
		I can make out what seems to be a testing of maybe about maybe like oil north tech.
		What is the direction out here north?
		Northeast, south, west.
		Right now, it's going approximately north northwest.
		Register, that's northwest.
		That's correct.
		That's correct.
		I still have your voice contact, sir.
		Do you have a crew on the ground that has been prepared to visit you at this time?
		This is the ground crew.
		Can anybody copy?
		I am KRR 91405.
		Robert.
		Please see.
		This is KRR 91405 on the ground at the launch point.
		Here you copy.
		23844.
		Margin, is that 2138?
		Yes, sir.
		What information can I disseminate through that telephone number at this time?
		What information do you wish me to tell them at this time as to your location or your difficulty?
		Well, the difficulty is this is an unauthorized balloon lock.
		And I know I'm in a general air state, and I'm sure my grandcrew has lose the proper authority.
		but just to call them and tell them that I'm okay.
		Roger, that is a family.
		Stand by this frequency.
		I'll stay on the sequence of y'all.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So he just wanted everybody notified that he's an unauthorized balloon launch.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And let him know I'm okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how long from that point until he drifted over this other fellow sitting in his lawn chair who looked up and saw Larry drifting along?
unidentified		Oh, I think it went on for another hour or more even.
		I don't know the exact time.
		But you know what amazes me is his calmness in the whole thing.
		Here his ground crew is freaking out.
		Nothing's going right.
		And he's just enjoying the view.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, his girlfriend was really losing it there.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
		She just is freaking out.
		And it's for his safety.
		She's concerned about his safety.
		You know what's funny, too, is Larry took a camera with him, and he was so into the view, he never took any pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
		Really?
		But at least the ground crew got photos.
unidentified		Yeah, there's a few photos on my website that shows right before he launched and right after he launched.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we have now put up a link.
		So prepare to test Your bandwidth.
		But on my site, for those who want to know how to find it, go to artbell.com, go to program tonight's guest info, and there you will see now in the 10 o'clock position the name Mark Berry, and you will see Larry Walters Launch Air Trip audio recordings, and the website link is right there.
		So we'll see now how well your website holds up.
unidentified		Yeah, we're just a humble little website, just a little personal website I put together.
unidentified		It's nothing professional, but if they can't get to it tonight, then just they can check back the next day or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		They can try tomorrow or something.
		Anyway, all turned out well, at least in the short run, for Larry.
		He had to pay a fine, but I take it he didn't do any jail time.
unidentified		No, in fact, not that I know of, but he did get a lot of publicity.
		He went on a tour.
		He went on David Letterman.
		He went on the Tonight Show.
		He did Timex commercials.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I bet they never had this audio, though.
unidentified		Not that I know of.
		React was very possessive of that audio tape.
		And as far as I know, you just did the exclusive on national radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm glad that it exists.
		And now from now on, when people tell this story or hear this story, at least my listeners will be there to say, hey, I know it's real.
		I heard it.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, what's his family's attitude?
		He, of course, has passed away since.
		Is his family still contacted about this?
unidentified		You know, I don't know that.
		I know when I contacted them, they were a little bit reluctant, but they were the nicest people I've ever spoke with.
		They gave me plenty of information.
		They wanted to make sure that what I was doing was nothing negative, which it wasn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course not.
unidentified		Yeah, and I was letting people know, hey, this is not a myth.
		And there were a lot of myths out there about he was some psycho.
		And my website says this guy was not a psycho.
		He was professional.
		He worked for the movie studios.
		Oh, he did.
		Oh, yeah.
		He did some kind of delivery with the films or something like that.
		But he was a very professional guy.
		And you can tell by just listening to him that the guy just had everything planned out and very organized.
		And he never, ever did this for the publicity.
		He never did it for anything like that.
		He just did it to fulfill a dream.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I think that was obvious.
		I mean, they would have had the media right there, and they didn't.
		All they wanted to do was make sure the authorities were notified and that he could find himself a safe place to land is what it sounds like to me.
unidentified		Exactly.
		And you can tell he wasn't really in a hurry to get down.
		He was enjoying the view.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How was his landing, by the way?
unidentified		Like I said, it was phenomenal.
		He came down in that guy's backyard and landed pretty safely.
		And, you know, when they interviewed him later, they said, Larry, why'd you do it?
		And he said, you know, a man's got to do what a man's got to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there you've got it.
		That's the story of Larry Walters.
		That's the actual audio.
		Pretty historical.
		In my opinion.
		Pretty historical stuff.
unidentified		Road his wings, Carlos.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I think Larry Walters is absolutely a hero in my book.
		My kind of guy.
		We'll be right back with Dr. Gary Schwartz.
unidentified		He left his labor.
		Oh, yeah.
		Ladybird, come on down.
		I'm your waiting on the ground.
		Ladybird, I'll treat you good.
		Ladybird, I wish you would do ladybird.
		Pretty ladybird.
		Destiny, I will follow him.
		Estates touch my heart, I knew there isn't an ocean to thee.
		A mountain so high it can keep, keep me away.
		Oh wait from his, I love it, I love it.
		And where he goes, I'll follow, I'll follow, I'll follow, follow him, follow him wherever he may go.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		I hope you managed to get hold of that audio and got it on tape.
		That's truly historic stuff.
		And as I said, Larry Walters is, in my opinion, a great American hero.
		No question about it.
		All right, coming up in a moment, the greatest, deepest, most important question in life, and life is very short, and that is whether there's anything that comes afterwards.
		Now, this is unique scientific research you're about to hear, you're going to hear in a moment.
		Dr. Schwartz is currently professor of psychology, medicine, neurology, psychiatry, and surgery.
		My mind, director of the Human Energy Systems Lab and director of the Bioenergy Corps of the Pediatric Alternative Medicine Center at the University of Arizona.
		He served as senior research advisor to Dr. Andrew Wells' program in integrative medicine from 1998 to 2000.
		He Received his Ph.D. in psychology from Harvard in 71.
		Served as assistant professor of psychology at Harvard 71 through 76.
		Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at Yale University.
		Director of the Yale Psychophysiology Center.
		And co-director of the Yale Behavioral Medicine Clinic from 76 through 88.
		That's quite a pedigree.
		He's received many honors, including a Young Psychologist Award, an Early Career Award for Distinguished Research, both from the American Psychological Association.
		He has served as president of the Biofeedback Society of America and the Health Psychology Division of the American Psychological Association.
		He is a fellow of numerous societies, of course, as you might imagine, including the American Psychological Association, the American Physiological Society, the Academy of Behavioral Medicine, and the Society of Behavioral Medicine.
		He has co-edited 11 academic books, published more than 400 scientific papers, including six in the journal Science, and has co-authored the Living Energy Universe.
		in a moment, Dr. Gary Schwartz.
unidentified		Dr. Gary Schwartz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And now, that is really some pedigree I just read for Dr. Schwartz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to the program, Doctor.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		It's a pleasure to be here.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Great to have you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, by the way?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		I'm in Tucson, Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tucson.
		Okay.
		Very good.
		I mean, with such a background as you have, I would think that the area of research that you have plunged into would be at best risky for you.
		Very, very, very risky.
		Harvard, Yale, all of that.
		You know, people have become in trouble at Harvard, as you know.
		John Mack got into a batch of trouble.
		And so, you know, with that kind of pedigree, how do you get into the kind of area that you're in?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, very carefully, because this is not the kind of area that is reinforced by your colleagues.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		In fact, as I sometimes affectionately put it, now that our work has become extremely public, especially with the new publication of this book, The Afterlife Experiments, I say that some of my colleagues would prefer that I do this research somewhere else, preferably on another planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On another planet.
unidentified		Yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So the truth is, of course, it's very controversial.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		In my case, I began doing this work partly accidentally from a scientific point of view and partly for personal reasons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was the specific kind of work you were doing just prior to beginning this?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was working in areas that bridged mind-body medicine, which is sort of mainstream, energy medicine, which of course is now bridging into the alternative medicine area, and a little bit of what you might call spiritual medicine, or the spirituality side of psychology and health.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in a way, then, you were already slipping out of the mainstream a little bit anyway.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		In fact, when we had created this human energy systems laboratory, it was really going from my background actually in electrical engineering and taking it into contemporary science.
		In fact, we always talk about that I do work on using mainstream methods to address frontier questions.
		But addressing the question of life after life, of course, was way off the mark from where I had been before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Way, way off.
		It is, however, in my opinion, the biggest question that all of us have, period.
		I mean, that's it.
		It's the big one.
		What could be bigger than that?
		I mean, even aliens.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well I think the only question that's actually bigger than this one, which is actually going to be the topic of the next book that I'm writing, is the topic of whether there's some sort of design or plan to the universe and whether or not we can see the future of the universe.
		Yes.
		In fact, the research on the afterlife actually points us to the idea of something bigger than all of us, of course.
		So it really does take us there.
		But I think that for most people, the number one question is, is this the end?
		Is it asshole to asshole, dust to dust?
		Or is this really just part of the beginning, so to speak?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So in a quest to try and answer that question, you apparently began investigating psychics, right?
		People who claim they can speak to people on the other side, that sort of thing.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		What happened was that once I had, when I was a professor at Yale, come to the realization that contemporary physics didn't merely allow for the possibility of survival of consciousness, but actually seriously required it.
		That is, once you understand how physics works, it then became justifiable to bring in some of these mediums, ultimately people like John Edward from the program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Crossing over, sure.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		To see whether or not what these people claimed that they were doing, they actually could do under laboratory conditions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me take you back just a step, because you said that physics, if you understand it, demands that there be an afterlife consciousness continue, and I'd be very Interested to hear how you figure that.
unidentified		Okay.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		When we look at the starlight at night on a clear sky, what we're actually seeing and what physics tells us is we're actually seeing a history of the starlight.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		In fact, this starlight may have traveled thousands or millions of years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're looking into time, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if something is 100 light years away, relatively very close, we are seeing the light we're seeing is 100 years old.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		In fact, what astrophysics claims is that photons going back to shortly after the, quote, Big Bang, if you believe that possibility, which are 12 billion years old, that those literal photons are present everywhere in the universe, including in your room where you're sitting, in my room where I'm sitting, we can measure those photons as what's called background radiation.
		And those photons are vibrating just as they were 12 billion years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In what scientific method do we understand that that is in fact what we are observing?
		That they are actually the remnant of the Big Bang?
		How do we really know that, by the way?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a lot of inference in order to do that.
		You have to make certain assumptions about the nature of light, the frequencies that are observed, and the prevalence.
		And so there's a lot of storytelling there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So put it another way, we think it's the stuff of the Big Bang, but we cannot prove it.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		No.
		However, but what we can know for sure is that the light from the distant stars that we're seeing has been traveling for thousands of millions of light years.
		That we know.
		And the interesting thing about that is that long after the star has, quote, died, that energy and information is still there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		The other thing that we know, and this is a fact, is that each and every one of us, we are emitting photons.
		And those photons are going into space.
		So, for example, spy satellites can see our images, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Which means what?
		That our photons are going out into space.
		And I don't mean just the visible ones, but all the invisible ones, the infrared, the ultraviolet, the microwave, the X-rays, all of the energies that we record in our laboratory, all that information is streaming out and going into space like the light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so then in a sense, you could say, once we're gone, we're not gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're just traveling on.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Once we're gone, we're not gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Eternally traveling on.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That's beautifully put poetry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You remember that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine, but how does that translate to some coherent gathering of these photons that would represent something that we loosely call consciousness?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's what neuroscience assumes.
		And it's an assumption.
		Neuroscience assumes that our brains are biological systems that allow us to see and hear and think and so on.
		That's the normal assumption.
		And whether we posit that the brain is creating these experiences or merely serving as an antenna and receiver for these experiences, which, by the way, our research speaks to very strongly, suggesting it's the latter rather than the former.
		But whether it's either one of those, the fact is that because we have this apparatus, we can do certain kinds of things.
		Now, what does physics tell us about the nature of matter?
		Matter is actually organized energy.
		In fact, as you know, matter is mostly empty space.
unidentified		Right?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So all of the energy and information that is contained in our physical structure, which is constantly streaming into space, it does not lose any of its individuality.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise, when we looked up at the sky at night, what we would see is just random noise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's an interesting theory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or perhaps better than theory.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		It's a basic assumption of astrophysics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The organization of the matter that flows from us, which really is us, no matter how it's formed, you're saying, continues unabated forever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's so interesting.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And so that's the beginning basis, which says that if we just accept the basic tenets of astrophysics and combine it with neuroscience, we're forced to entertain the hypothesis that if consciousness is related to matter and matter is energy and energy continues, then our consciousness continues.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		You don't need to be a rocket scientist to come to that logical conclusion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It helps.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		You just have to be logical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would help.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Rocket scientists would understand this more easily.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		We would like to think so.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		But they have to be open-minded rocket scientists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know that.
		Well, I'm not so sure about that.
		I mean, as you point out, this is consistent with the laws of physics that we understand.
		And if everything that is you continues to flow as it now flows, minus the physical body, and we know that to be true as the stars shine in the night sky, then so there is a continuance.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		The way I put it is that the probability that our consciousness continues after we die is the same probability that the light from distant stars continues forever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Makes sense.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That was the sort of the simplest way to describe a theoretical framework that said we should be open to the possibility.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So when skeptics say science says that this is impossible, these people don't understand simple physics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And or care to apply it to the emanations of a biological entity.
unidentified		Right.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Which means that they're then being hypocritical about the nature of physical, the nature of the physical theory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a pretty doggone good jumping-off point for an investigation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can certainly see that.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So that's where it began.
		But that wasn't sufficient, by the way, for me to bring in these initially what I consider to be very strange folks, people who were talking to dead people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've seen John Edward.
		I have interviewed, of course, many people like James von Prague and others who claim to do this.
		And I guess I must say I've always had a seed of doubt, a pretty strong seed of doubt about what they claim.
		However, it's closing in on me.
		You know, I've been interviewing, for example, these people with electronic voice phenomena.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's pretty interesting stuff.
		And then every now and then, of course, I do a ghost show.
		And when I do, you know, I do a serious program.
		And the lines never, ever stop ringing.
		I mean, the number of people, it would be interesting to do a survey of some sort, maybe some national survey of how many people have had encounters with ghosts, people who have passed on.
		And the numbers, doctor, are huge, absolutely huge.
		I bet they've never done a study like that.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So in fact, you know what would be wonderful to do?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And I'm going to suggest this on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That you consider, maybe with me or with some group of people, using your audience as an initial sample to do that kind of study.
		You've got a website.
		You've got people who listen to you all the time.
		One could literally put on a website the same way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but instead of quit.
		You know what, though?
		You would get a disproportionate response from my audience.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, in my mind, you've got to commission like a Roper survey or something like that and do it of the random sample.
		That's right.
		Absolutely.
		But I mean, even with my program, you know, we get telephone reports of how many people try to reach a show, like what I'm doing in Open Line Sean Ghosts.
		And the numbers are in the hundreds of thousands.
		Wow.
		So a lot of American people, people across the world, of course, have had these encounters.
		I don't know what you want to call them.
		Messages, encounters, whatever they are.
		It's so common.
		I really would love to see a survey.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think someday it's going to have to happen, maybe sooner rather than later.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		You see, what's interesting is that the research that I report in this new book, The Afterlife Experiments, this research is so definitive that it now requires us to be open to the idea that observations like ghosts and so on are probably not all just hallucinations or people's misperceptions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That quite the contrary.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		These are real phenomena and that we've got to come to understand them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think the implications are of the ability of an entity, a consciousness on what we call the other side or on this long journey, somehow either still being present in some manner here or reaching back from where they are to manifest themselves here?
		Is that consistent with the physics?
		Absolutely.
		It is?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely consistent with the physics.
		And what you have to do, in order to make it consistent, is to integrate the physics with what's called systems science.
		And what systems science is, simply put, is the analysis of what are called feedback loops.
		And all physical systems, whether they're atoms or molecules or cells or organs or people or planetary systems, galaxies, it doesn't matter.
		Whatever the scope of the system is, the components are connected with each other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, on that note, hold it.
		We'll pick up right here when we get back.
		My guest is Dr. Gary Schwartz.
unidentified		You get a shiver in the dark.
unidentified		It's raining in the park.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we're talking about what's coming for all of us.
unidentified		Out of the river you stop and you hold everything.
		A band is throwing Dixie, double fall time.
		You feel alright when you hear the music ring.
		Now now you step inside.
		Music.
		Time, time, time, see what's become of me.
		While I looked around all my possibilities, I was so hard to please.
		In the ground, in the ground, in the sky, is a hazy shade of winter.
		To recharge bells in the Kingdom of Nine, from west of the Rockies, tile 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-8255033.
		First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with our bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is Dr. Gary Schwartz.
		He'll be right back.
		Listen, I almost hate to do this, and I'm going to tell you why.
		My website is approaching the 100 millionth visitor, and since I mentioned that, it's now approaching it too darn quickly.
		Now, we were going to write software, so there'd be a little magic word that would appear on your screen with a, you know, sort of a keyword, code word, so we'd know it was you that hit the hundred millionth time.
		However, we may hit it too soon before the software is written.
		We may hit it before the show is over.
		I've got a picture on my website.
		It's of the damnedest fish you ever saw in your whole life.
		A guy actually caught this fish in the Mississippi River.
		You want to see it?
		Good luck to us.
		If we have many more like this, all I can say is good luck to us.
		Take a look at this fish.
		You're going to need a strong stomach.
unidentified		Look around.
		He's our friend.
		There's a passion on the ground.
		Look around.
		All right, I'm going to be here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, we're getting uncounted hits right now because it was going so damn fast that we're going to slow it up to get the software written so we'll actually know who the hundredth millionth person actually is.
		So when you go up there right now, it's just going to say millions, and we're putting together that software, and then we'll allow it to begin counting again.
		That's how scary as it is.
		I forget the last one I looked at, but we took like 100,000 hits or something in an hour and a half.
		So we're just going to slow everything down a little bit for a while.
		All right.
		Back now to Dr. Gary Schwartz.
		Dr. Schwartz, welcome back.
		We were talking about how this stream of what we are that is outgoing, and I can grasp that, and I think most people in the audience can, as Starlight continues, so do we in some form and some apparent coherent form.
		But the reaching back part of it that we were talking about and somehow manifesting to a loved one or even just getting a message across what I guess we can call the veil or whatever separates us, that is a little harder to understand.
		And in fact, let me tell my audience, I'm going to do a ghost-to-ghost show on Friday.
		I just decided in the last few minutes after talking about it, so I just called Keith.
		We're going to do a ghost-to-ghost program this Friday night, Saturday morning.
		And I'm telling you, doctor, I could be on the air for 20 hours straight and still the lines would be jammed with people, honest, sincere people, many of them like, you know, firemen, policemen, all walks of life who have had experiences that they cannot even begin to explain.
		Many, including some proof, and, oh, God, it's incredible.
		So we'll do that Friday night, Saturday morning.
		In the meantime, how, again, let's look at it.
		Can these things manifest in any way or even communicate?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Once you understand what I'm about to explain to you about how feedback in a system works, it will be as clear to you about how the past circulates in the present as the story that I told you about the light from distant stars.
		But we just have to talk for a couple of minutes here.
		Any system involves two or more components, and they're joined, like hydrogen and oxygen come together and make water.
		Now, what hydrogen does is it sends information and energy to oxygen, and oxygen sends energy and information back to hydrogen.
		And that circulates over and over.
		That's what's called a feedback loop.
		I talk to you, you talk to me, I talk to you, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
		Now, when you analyze what's circulating in this loop, what you realize is what returns to a given component is actually a history of what it sent out.
		In other words, if I say to you hello and you say hello back, what you're doing to me is you're sending back to me a response of what I sent to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So what I'm actually doing is responding to a history of myself as perceived and revised by you.
		And the way to simply say this is that what goes around and stays around evolves around.
		What goes around and stays around evolves around.
		Because each time it goes through the loop, it picks up new information.
		And what's interesting about this analysis, by the way, is that what this says is that anything that is a system is constantly storing information and energy.
		And what we call intention or consciousness involves this memory process.
		And I call that systemic memory, meaning it's memory in the system.
		Now, once you understand that basic concept, by the way, that's how neuroscientists explain how neurons learn.
		You've heard of what's called a neural network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		The way that a neural network works is that the output of the neurons is fed back into the input.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's feedback.
unidentified		It's called feedback.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And if you cut that feedback, you know what happens?
		The network won't learn.
		The feedback is critical for the system to learn, to grow, and to have intention.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So once you understand that, that is a universal principle because this feedback loop applies in everything from the micro to the macro.
		Now the question is, to what extent when we die, do we lose those feedback loops?
		And the answer is, we don't lose those feedback loops any more than we lose any of our information and energy.
		All of that's preserved.
		So the very apparatus that allows for the internal coherence and organization, which allows for feedback processes to occur, is as real as the starlight from distant stars.
		And therefore, I can talk to you when I'm dead just like I talk to you when I'm alive.
		The only difference is I don't have the same concentration of energy because I've lost some of my matter.
		So that's the logic of what leads us to realize that when we literally die, we don't lose the history of our neurons or the history of our ears or the history of our eyes.
		All that information is preserved as a system, a living energy system, in the quote, vacuum of space.
		That's the explanation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		When you investigated people like John Edward and Laurie Campbell, I guess, Susie Smith, so many of these mediums that you investigated, you haven't gotten around to some of them yet, but this would be enough.
		When you went to investigate them, how did you investigate them and what were your findings?
unidentified		Okay.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, the best way to explain this is to pick like a prototypic experiment.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Because the first thing that you have to do with these mediums is you have to rule out any possibility that what they're doing is that they're engaged in fraud.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		You want to rule out fraud.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		You also want to rule out what's called cold reading, which are these magic tricks, which we can talk about later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sort of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not really magic, but.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Not really magic.
		No, it's not real magic.
		It's pseudo-magic.
		It's illusions.
		And by the way, I've had training.
		I know how to be a fake medium.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so how do you rule that out?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you rule all of this out?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Here's how you do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, first fraud would be obviously information obtained ahead of time, through some other means.
		Let's see, what else?
		There could be microphones.
		There could be all kinds of that obvious type fraud.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you check for that?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you how we did the experiment, and you'll see how it eliminates all of this.
		Alrighty.
		In the Afterlife Experiments book, in what's called the Canyon Ranch Experiments, because these experiments were literally conducted at Canyon Ranch.
		In fact, Canyon Ranch, which is a health resort in Tucson, actually helped fund the research.
		What we did is, imagine you've got a medium like John Edward.
		There were actually three of them in three different rooms, John Edward, Suzanne Rothrop, and Laurie Campbell.
		But let's take John Edward.
		John Edward is in a room by himself, and he's facing a wall with his back to the door.
		He's facing a video camera and a backup tape recorder.
		And behind him is a floor-to-ceiling screen.
		So even if he turned around, he couldn't see who was behind him.
		So the first thing we've done is we've eliminated any visual cues.
		He can't see.
		So he doesn't know who's behind him.
		I now, as the experimenter with John, I bring in a given sitter.
		Now, a sitter is a person who wants to hear from their deceased loved ones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If I may, when did John Edward agree to do this?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, the first time he agreed, because he's been actually to the Tucson for four different experiments.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		The very first one he agreed to in the winter of 1998, which was just before what was called the HBO special Life After Life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you approach him?
		Did he approach you?
		How did it occur?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		How it occurred was that originally, Lisa Jackson, who was the producer director, she approached John Edward, and John Edward said no, he didn't want to participate in their show because he didn't trust them.
		She then approached me and my laboratory and asked and was interested because she had heard that we were doing mediumship research.
		And she, of course, had access to John Edward, and I did not because John didn't know me then.
		John didn't trust scientists, of course.
		He didn't trust scientists, and he didn't trust the media.
		And when Lisa Jackson came out to visit with us, I proposed to Lisa that if she was really interested in science and the truth, what she should do is bring these mediums and pay to have these mediums, including John Edward, come to Tucson to take part in an experiment where we could actually test them in front of live cameras under controlled conditions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm certainly impressed that he agreed to it.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, he didn't initially agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He didn't initially agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But ultimately, he did anyway.
unidentified		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ultimately, he did.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		You know what happened was?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		He insisted that he talk to me, and he grilled me for two to three hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't blame him.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		I don't blame him either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What I'm saying is, though, that to me it is impressive that he allowed himself to be tested in that manner.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you know, people like John Edwards are very controversial, and I've seen a lot of stuff floating around the internet accusing him of this and that.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's true, of course, of most of the mediums.
		So that they would even allow themselves, ultimately, to be tested, I think, is really important and adds a great deal to what they claim they can do.
		Credibility-wise, in my eyes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		I completely agree with you.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		In fact, we have a slogan which says if mediums are willing to stand up and be counted, scientists should be willing to stand up and count them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And count, yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		If they're willing to put their careers on the line, we should be willing to test them under the very best conditions possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I want to hear now about these tests.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		So I bring in a sitter.
		Now, these, by the way, are not just grieving parents, for example.
		These are research sitters.
		These people have been secretly selected because they're interested in research.
		They're trained how to score the data before they're ever brought into an experiment.
		And they're interested in finding out the truth.
		And by the way, these people have to score every single item from every single transcript, not just from their readings, but from everybody else's readings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They don't have to sit there and do that live and truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They can pick it apart later, right?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		In fact, they couldn't do it live because there's too much information occurring too quickly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
unidentified		Okay.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Now, here's the critical part.
		Imagine for the moment that John Edward, or one of these mediums, had my phones tapped.
		Somehow they got the names of the sitters ahead of time.
		And they even got the information about these people ahead of time.
		What we did was we made it impossible for them to use it.
		And let me explain how.
		The first thing that we did was that the order of which sitter was going to be run at which time was not determined until a half hour before the experiment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, when you refer to a sitter, this is a.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		This is a person.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		A sitter is a subject who's going to be read by John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, they're going to sit and John is going to talk to their dead whatever.
unidentified		Yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		But here's the critical thing in this experiment.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		For the first 10 minutes, the sitter doesn't say a word, and John's not allowed to talk to them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They just sit there and stare at each other?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, they can't stare at each other because John can't see them.
		But there's a shield.
		And John's back is to them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So John can't see them.
		He can't talk to them.
		And that eliminates any possibility of fraud.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And it eliminates any possibility of cold reading because they're not getting any feedback.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		They're not getting any cues.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even small facial expressions or tics or little responses to something John might say, all of that is eliminated.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		It's eliminated because John can't see them.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		John's back is on them and there's a shield between them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So what we've done is eliminated all the normal cues and all the possibility for fraud.
		Okay.
		Now the question is, to what extent can John get specific information, initials, names, causes of death, historical facts, personal descriptions, descriptions of people's personalities and temperament, information that can be independently confirmed by other living relatives and friends that is specific to the individual behind him, and he doesn't know who that person is.
		That's the number one question.
		And much to my absolute amazement, because I was an agnostic when I came into this work, much to my amazement, they can do it and they can do it in spades.
		And I'll give you lots of examples and stories of data that just are breathtaking with the kinds of findings that they do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, what was it like running these controlled experiments and having it dawn on you that this was real?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy, it was amazing.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Because, first of all, in this kind of work, you have to be prepared for surprises.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		I mean, Louis Pasteur used to say that great discoveries are accidents observed by prepared minds.
		And I was continually floored.
		In fact, during the HBO experiment, which was the first time that I saw people like John Edward and Suzanne Northrop and George Anderson work, you know, literally side by side with me, the way I explain it is my jaw dropped about 50 times during the day.
		My jaw was so tired at the end of the day from witnessing things that I could not believe.
		And what happened was, after experiment after experiment of witnessing new stuff under ever more controlled conditions, the way I put it is I was finally, quote, pushed off the fence of the data.
		And then you know what happened the next morning?
		I climbed back up the fence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		I know the feeling.
		On this program, so many times I have really been pushed over the fence, particularly on this topic.
		And then I, too, withdraw a little bit back from it again and reinstitute my doubts.
		And then inevitably I'll get pushed over again.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		It's a constant you'd be pushed off, you climb back up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder why that happens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, is it some sort of something in the mind that just refuses to believe what it is presented with if it's too outside our frame of reference or what?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's more than that.
		Let me tell you what.
		Have you heard of what's called PTSD, which is post-traumatic stress disorder?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I know about it, yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, I believe that I, and I think you and many others, suffer from what I call a PESD, which is a post-education stress disorder.
		Here's what happened to me.
		I was brought up to believe that there's the Easter Bunny, there's Santa Claus, and there's survival of consciousness after death.
		And I was taught that this idea is stupid, that it is wrong, that it is impossible, that it can't be true.
		And I was a good student.
		Remember, I went to good schools.
		I went to Harvard.
		I was a professor at Yale and so on.
		So I learned this stuff really well.
		Then what happens when all of a sudden you start seeing data?
		And the data is inconsistent with what you've been conditioned over and over to believe.
		I'm sort of like Pavlov's dog salivating to the bell.
		I've been so conditioned to believe it's impossible that now when I see information that says not only is it possible, but it's actually happening, I find it just very hard to believe because I have to get over it.
		In fact, I describe myself now as a recovery agnostic because I have to recover from the prior training that I've had, which is that all of this can't be true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so you withdraw even from the reality of your own experiments.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, in fact, people ask me, they say, Gary, they say, what do you believe?
		And I say, it's not what's important, what I believe, it's what I know.
		And what I know, and what I present in the Afterlife Experiments book, is that these experiments are real.
		The data are real.
		They're replicated.
		I have no question that these experiments are real.
		The problem is, I still have a hard time believing them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even now, huh?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Even now.
		And you know how I explain this to people?
		Do you remember September 11th?
		I'm sure you do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, many of us had the, and I call it a privilege, as horrible as it was, to witness 9-11 happening as it was occurring.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And what millions and millions of people saw and said was they couldn't believe what they were seeing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold it right there, Doctor.
		Dr. Gary Schwartz is my guest.
		And what we're going to do when we get back, aside from follow this up, is to hear what it is that convinced Dr. Schwartz.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Trees swaying in the summer breeze Showing off their silver leaves As we walk side Kisses on a
		summer's day Laughing all our cares away Just you and I Sweet Sleepy warmth of summer lights Gazing at the distant lights In the starry sky They say that all
		good things must end Someday All your dreams must fall Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of My, from West of the Rockies, at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-8255-033.
		First time callers may recharge at 1775727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1775-727-1295.
		To recharge on the Full Free International line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Listen, let me say this one more time, all right?
		Our website is headed toward the 100 millionth hit.
		100 million hits on the main page, and that's all we record.
		Now, of course, the minute I opened my big mouth, zillions of you started going up there, and we're writing, Keith is writing a special little piece of software that will cause to pop up on the screen of the 100th millionth visitor a sort of a magic keyword and a very special message that I'm obviously not going to reveal right here.
		And maybe we'll get a winner and maybe we won't.
		I mean, there are people, we understand, there are people out there who are going to just sit there and hit reload again and again and again, hoping to be the one.
		Well, the one possible fatal error in that strategy is that you will get the magic screen and you will hit reload and just, you know, you will have missed it.
		So it may well be that nobody will become the magic person with the key word or the phrase or whatever it is that we put in there for you to tell us that we know you are, in fact, the person who did it.
		Plus, you ought to get a screenshot, if you can, get a camera, if you happen to get it.
		So what we have done is turned off the counter until the software is in place, which could be a matter of hours or in the morning, whatever.
		And we'll turn the counter back on.
		And then maybe, maybe, if somebody is not twitchy-fingered out there, they will get the special hundredth millionth message.
unidentified		We'll see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Gary Schwartz is my absolutely fascinating guest.
		he'll be right back All right, with respect first to the 9-11 disaster, Doctor, you say you experienced that as it occurred.
		In what sense?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was awoken in the morning at 6.15 Tucson time, which was 8.15 New York time.
		And I was told that something horrible was happening and I should turn on the television.
		Of course, I turned on the television.
		And I saw the first tower burning.
		And I couldn't believe it.
		And of course, I turned the channels to see whether there was some mistake.
		And virtually all the channels were showing this.
		And then I saw this second plane crashing into the building.
		And at this point, I could not imagine that two planes in a short period of time could somehow crash into this building.
		Certainly not deliberately.
		It didn't make any sense to me.
		I then got out of bed.
		I went and I made some coffee.
		I went into another room and turned on the television set.
		I received another phone call.
		And while I was on this phone, and it's important about who this phone call was from, I'll tell you in a second.
		While I'm on the phone with this person, I see the first building collapsing.
		And I realize that for the first time in my life, I'm literally witnessing, as are millions of other people, thousands of people dying.
		Thousands of people are dying.
		Meanwhile, I know, because I have a book called The Airflow Experiment that's about to be published.
		I know the significance of what this means in terms of the whole issue of survival of consciousness to death.
		And of course, I can't believe that this is happening.
		And yet, I knew it was true, but I couldn't believe it.
		And what was even more unbelievable for me personally were the conditions under which I was witnessing this.
		You see, when I was woken up at 6.15 in the morning, I was actually awoken by a woman by the name of Joanne Rule, who's a research medium in Tucson.
		She works in my laboratory.
		And when I was on the phone and the first building collapsed, I actually had received a phone call from Lori Campbell, who's the chairperson of our mediumship committee.
		She was in California, and she was in tears because she was worried about whether or not John Edward, who was in that area typically at that time of the day, she was worried that maybe something had happened to him.
		So on top of everything else, I'm literally talking to a medium about another medium when thousands of people are dying.
unidentified		Maybe.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And yet, I knew it was true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe you could try and explain this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what they're doing at Princeton, right?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The consciousness stuff.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All the computers, the eggs scattered around the world reporting back to the computer at Princeton.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you see the graphs, Professor, of the 9-11 event, and did you see them begin to go off the chart four hours prior to the event itself and then for hours after the event itself?
		These are a random number of computers reporting back.
		Really, we believe, they believe, monitoring consciousness, the mass consciousness out there and the fact that they started to go off the graph four hours prior to the event is so incredibly intriguing and mind-boggling in what it suggests about space and time and all kinds of things that I just wonder how you reacted to all of that.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the amazing discoveries that we report in the afterlife experiments book is that every now and then these mediums in the laboratory would literally see the future before it happened.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		We call them, you know, you've heard the term precognitive dreams or precognitive experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And these mediums like John Edward and Lord Campbell and so on, they're not just mediums.
		They are typically, quote, psychic.
		They have other gifts.
		And we actually had documented cases of verified precognitive information where even they didn't know that it was precognitive.
		All they were doing was reporting the experience.
		They didn't know whether it was present or future.
		They were just experiencing it.
		So I was already seeing data in the laboratory that things about what's going to happen in the future can be known before they happen.
		Then I began doing research with a man called the Dream Detective from England, who for the past 13 years after a near-death experience, and by the way, he's an undercover policeman who had a near-death experience.
		He began recognizing that when he would be going to sleep at night, he'd be having dreams not only about bombings and other terrorist activities that had taken place, but more remarkably, about terrorist activity that was going to happen in the future.
		In fact, in his dreams, the way he reports it is that very often he will get information from deceased policemen in his dreams telling him about events that are going to happen in the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Still on the job.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Still on the job.
		It gives new meaning to the work.
		It used to phrase, our work is never done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I really would like to know the results of the experiments.
		In other words, what dropped your jaw?
		Tell me and tell everybody, because we weren't there.
		We've heard how the experiments were controlled.
		I really want to hear what you got.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let me give you an example.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And this is one of my favorite examples.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And this was a turning point.
		And by the way, I've now done this, I've described this particular experiment, these findings, to over 7,000 people.
		So I'll give you the results of what they reported.
		And your audience can even try this as we go along.
		It's sitter number three, the third sitter, in the Canyon Ranch experiment, the one that I told you about.
		And John says, first of all, he says, during the sitter-silent period, he says, I'm sensing that the person has a deceased grandmother.
		Well, if you ask people, how many of you have a deceased grandmother, almost everybody raises her hand.
		So that's not terribly meaningful.
		Even though it's true, maybe true.
		Then he says, and the grandmother is showing me that she really loved the sitter.
		Most grandmothers really love this sitter.
		So that doesn't count.
		And then he says, the grandmother is showing me that she brought daisies to the wedding.
		He says, daisies to the wedding?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now you're cooking.
unidentified		Yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		When I've asked people how many people's grandparents brought daisies to the wedding, three people out of approximately 7,000 have said that their grandmothers brought daisies to the wedding.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's why I say you're cooking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that would stand the hair up on the back of my neck right away.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And in this particular case, you haven't heard anything yet.
		In this particular case, it turned out that for this sitter's grandmother, she literally wove the daisies into her daughter's hair, so it was meaningful.
		Then John says, he says, the grandmother is showing me that she had two dogs, two large poodles, in fact, a black poodle and a white poodle, and the white poodle tore up the house.
		And now you ask, how many people had grandmothers that had two large dogs, two poodles, a black poodle and a white poodle?
		And the white poodle tore up the house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, right.
		Now the numbers are going off the chart.
		And you're telling me the sitter...
		Are you telling me the sitter in this case, the subject, was on the other side of the screen and silent during all of this particular time that we're now talking about?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Yes, this is all during this time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good lord.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		This is the kind of information that you get during the sitter-silent period.
		But let me give you the really interesting part, okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought that was it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
		This is now where we get to the part that was the convincing part.
		See, John does this a lot.
		John and our other mediums, they will often get information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but not under these kind of controls.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Even under these kind of control conditions in our laboratory, they can do this, okay?
		Let me tell you the surprise.
		For this particular sitter, he gets good 70 to 80% accuracy.
		I bring the sitter back to the sequestered area where they're hidden.
		And now I bring in sitter number four.
		And John says, he says, hmm, he says, I keep hearing the song on the good ship lollipop.
		And then he goes, hmm.
		And then he says, I'm hearing Sabrina the Teenage Witch.
		And then he says to me, Gary, He said, Did you bring a sitter in?
		And I said, Yes.
		Remember, he couldn't tell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		He said, Gary, he said, I've got a problem.
		Remember, he could talk to me.
		I said, What's your problem, John?
		He said, I can't get anything for this sitter.
		I said, What do you mean you can't get anything for this sitter?
		If you can't get anything for this sitter, that's a zero.
		That means you're going to get nothing for the sitter, which lowers your average.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		He said, I'm sorry, Gary.
		I said, what's the problem?
		He says to me, the previous sitter's grandmother is still here.
		And I said, excuse me?
		I couldn't believe my ears.
		I'd never heard anything about this.
		He said, Gary, he said, mark my words.
		He said, I'm going to tell you that you will find that this particular sitter is currently waiting to see another medium.
		Because remember, there were five sitters.
		There were only three mediums.
		So at any one point in time, two sitters were waiting.
		He said, this grandmother is here because he wants to give the sitter more information.
		And then he said something I couldn't verify.
		He said, and I think the grandmother likes me.
		I thought that was cute.
		Okay, so I said, okay, you get a zero.
		All right?
		I bring sitter number four back who's waiting, just like John said, but sitter number three.
		So I sit down next to sitter number three, and I said, can I ask you a couple of questions?
		And she said, sure.
		And I said, does the good ship lollipop mean anything to you?
		And the sitter broke into tears.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		The reason was, when she had been a little girl, she had had curly brown hair.
		She used to sing and dance, and she used to sing Shirley Temple songs for her grandmother.
		Now, she did not remember if she had actually sung on the good ship lollipop.
		She had to call her mother to confirm that.
		Now, you want to guess what the sitter's name was?
		Sabrina.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God, really?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And when she had been a teenager, some kids had teased her.
		And guess who she went to for solace?
		That grandmother.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, mackerel.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That kind of data, you see, is just more than jaw-dropping.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's more than jaw-dropping.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You must have even gone back on yourself and said, no, he has to have gotten this information some other way.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, because the alternative is to be thrust into the belief that what you just tested is real.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		In fact, one of the things that I did after we did all of these sets of experiments, before we started, actually, we're doing now long-distance experiments over the telephone.
		So we're eliminating olfactory cues and everything else, and we're doing double-blind studies and the like.
		I convened seven of the world's best-known psychic magicians.
		These are the fake people, the people who cheat all the time.
		I flew them into Los Angeles.
		I showed them all the videotapes of these different experiments.
		And I asked them if there was any way that they could imagine cheating and faking under the conditions of these experiments.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And none of them could do it.
		They all said, every one last one of them, that if they were put under the conditions of these experiments, their tricks wouldn't work.
		Now, some of them said that maybe if I gave them a year or two, they might be able to figure something out and practice something.
		And they couldn't imagine it either.
		And you know what I told them?
		I said, listen, I said, when the mediums tell me that they can do something, I don't take their word for it.
		I say, you come into the laboratory and show me.
		I said, if a subset of you think that in a year or two you might be able to figure out something to do, you think it's possible, I'm not going to take your word for it.
		You're going to have to come in and show me that you can do this.
		The truth is, nobody knows how they could fake under these conditions.
		And that's why the experiments described in the Afterlife Experiments book force us to really entertain the idea that something real is going on, at least with this select group of mediums.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any overall numbers as a result of those experiments?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, the average accuracy of the percent accuracy of perfect hits that were scored as a plus 3, from minus 3 to plus 3, where plus 3 is a perfect hit.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		If you allow the readings to be sort of normal, and what I mean by sort of normal is that you allow the mediums to ask yes or no questions, their average accuracy, if you can believe this, is over 80%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Over 80%.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Over 80%.
		If you make it stringent, in other words, if you make it to the point where they're not allowed to ask any questions, it's completely blind.
		Then the accuracy drops down to about 50%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Still, when you're dealing with it.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Do you know what chance would be?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		It's going to be less than 5%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The numbers would be off the chart.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the p-values are in the billions or trillions in terms of this occurring by chance.
unidentified		I bet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I bet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, oh my.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, once you've done enough of these studies, you know, what happens is I ended up surrendering to the data.
		I finally said, I give up.
		I give up.
		Something's going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hold it right there.
		That's a good place to hold it, actually.
		I'm going to gather my thoughts together.
		The odds of that, of course, as you said, millions or trillions per individual under either one of the conditions described.
		All of this would seem to support with absolute proof of the existence of consciousness following death.
		That is no trivial matter to be sure.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Well, I think it's time to get ready To realize just what I have found I have been only there Of what I am It's all clear to me now My heart is on fire
		Oh, the night is my world City
		light, painted good In the day, nothing matters It's the night, time to plan In the night, no control Through the
		walls, something breaking Wearing white, as you're walking Down the street Of my soul You take myself, you take myself A home Because you're living only for the last
		To recharge Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255, East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222, or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's interesting.
		I'm getting fast-blasted by Ham, who said, listen for me on 7225, 40-meter band.
		Well, tell you what I'll do.
		In about an hour and a half, when I get off the air, I'll fire up my rig on 7225 on the 40-meter band, lower sideband.
		And so if there's any hams out there, I think I'll do that at this time of night.
		Why, of course, 40 meters probably is pretty much coast to coast.
		So I'll do that.
		About an hour and a half, 7225 lower sideband.
		We've got Dr. Gary Schwartz here, who I think, if you're willing to believe what he just said about scientifically controlled experiments, has proven that there is consciousness life after a death.
		That's exactly what he has proven.
		Now, I understand that sitting out there on the other side of the radio, you're probably trying to tear holes in it mentally one way or the other.
		I know that I am.
		I know that I fight evidence as strong as this.
		It's something that for some reason, we discussed this a little earlier.
		You actually fight it.
		It's just, it's almost too hard to grasp, and yet I don't for one second doubt the legitimacy of his experiments or the carefully controlled nature of his experiments.
		So that taken into consideration with what he just said proves life after death.
		And like the song about suicide bringing on many changes, that brings on many questions, and I've got a few in a moment.
		There is one other really, really, really important question for Dr. Schwartz.
		And that is that I believe that what you have proven is life after death with one possible caveat.
		And that, of course, is how do we know that the medium is not, and this would be really its own astounding story, but how do we know the medium is not either essentially remote viewing, A, or B, reading the mind of the sitter?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful question.
		Absolutely wonderful question.
		So let's say for the moment that we've ruled out convincingly these conventional explanations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think you have done that, yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Right, okay.
		That's where we get to other research.
		And let me give you one more study that's described in one of the last chapters of the afterlife experiments and is also discussed in a new book by George Dalzell called Messages.
		Because George is a psychiatric social worker who subsequently became a medium.
		Now let me describe the experiment and then I'll describe to you the finding that makes it virtually impossible to explain as being telepathy mind reading of the sitter.
		Here's the experiment.
		The medium is Lori Campbell.
		She's located in Tucson.
		I flew to Tucson.
		The sitter is located in Los Angeles.
		The sitter is George Dalville.
		And George is in Los Angeles.
		And George is completely silent during the early phase of the reading.
		So we're now doing it long distance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What does the medium, how did you control this experiment?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what did the medium know about the sitter?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		The medium knew nothing about the sitter.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		The medium didn't know where the sitter was in the country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or who?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		There were multiple sitters, yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		It's all controlled, just like all the other studies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		What we've done is just now made it long distance.
		Sure.
		And what's interesting about this particular sitter and experiment was that during the course of the reading, Lori received four pieces of information, specific pieces of information, that the sitter did not know.
		So remember, she's doing a reading long distance.
		She doesn't know where in the country the sitter is.
		She's getting information about the deceased loved ones of the sitter, and she includes four pieces of information which later, upon questioning, the sitter himself doesn't know.
		And he then has to make other phone calls, including to Europe.
		In order to confirm the information that Laurie has obtained.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would do it.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would do it.
		All right.
		So was the initial reason for this experiment, this long-distance experiment, to determine if distance was any factor at all?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Part of the reason.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you ended up with unintended consequences.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and again, it's just a surprise.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Remember, I told you great discoveries are accidents observed by prepared minds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, indeed.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		I did not anticipate that Lori would get not just a piece of information, but four specific pieces of information in a given reading.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you care to say how specific?
unidentified		Sure.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Let me give you an example.
		She received information about the deceased best friend of the sitter, where she was shown, supposedly, by the deceased, that on the way home from in Europe,
		she didn't know where in Europe, from some major city going to the country, that on the way to his country house, there was this church, an old monastery-like church on the right-hand side of the road along a river.
		Now, George did not know that there was any church or old monastery along the right-hand side of the road.
		So what he did was he called the parents of this man who died.
		They lived in Germany, and asked the parents, was there such a church?
		And it turned out that not only was there such, and is there such an old monastery, but two weeks before the experiment, they had held a memorial service in that church for their deceased son.
		You want to hear another specific one?
		Sure.
		Another deceased person who was among the list of deceased that George was hoping would come through was a man by the name of Jerry.
		And Jerry, Lori correctly obtained information that there was a man by the name of Jerry, that he was deceased, that he had been an alcoholic, but that he was changing his ways just before he died.
		And in the course of the reading, Lori described that Jerry had spent some time on the East Coast in Brooklyn, drunk.
		Now, George did not know that his friend Jerry had ever been in Brooklyn.
		So what he did was called one of Jerry's friends, and lo and behold, discovered that for apparently, I think it was two years, Jerry had lived in Brooklyn and had been an alcoholic in Brooklyn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, sold.
		Now, I mean, I don't know what else you can say, sold.
		All right.
		You know, if I were you, and I'm not, once I had come to that strong a threshold, I would then, I think, begin to want to know something about the nature of the other side.
		I mean, there are questions now that pop up all over the place, like, well, what was it like to die?
		What immediately occurred to you when you died?
		Are you in a different place now than you were then?
		Are others with you?
		Are you in an environment?
		What kind of an environment are you in?
		And on and on and on.
		Once I had achieved the threshold that you achieved, those are the kinds of questions I would begin to ask.
		Did you?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		The answer is we are just now beginning to ask them.
		Because remember, I am a conservative scientist.
		I've got to be clobbered over the head before I am willing to give in and give up and say, okay, there's enough.
		Now we can go on and ask other questions.
		So these set of experiments described in the afterlife experiments book is, is there an afterlife?
		One of the next questions is, what is the afterlife like?
		Now what's interesting about this is that the methods that we've developed, these single-blind and double-blind methods, allow us to now ask questions about what's the afterlife like in a way that we can confirm it scientifically as opposed to just getting the medium's stories.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know how you're going to confirm it.
		I mean, if somebody says, look, you know, it's great up here.
		There's McDonald's and Burger King, and we live in nice neighborhoods and blah, blah, blah, or we're floating around on clouds with wings, or how are you going to confirm what we're doing?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Let me explain how we do this.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And again, I must admit, it's a little clever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You ready?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Imagine for the moment, and all of this is true, that we have a team of mediums, okay?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		A team.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Multiple mediums.
		And what we do is we have multiple mediums independently read a given sitter.
		And remember, they don't know who the sitter is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So they're blind to the sitter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All reading the same sitter.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		They're all reading the same sitter.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		But their task is now not simply to verify the existence of a deceased person, but to get specific information from this specific deceased person about what is their life like in the afterlife.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, in the afterlife, yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And now, to the extent that the mediums obtain replicable information, independently verified across mediums that is specific to the life of a particular deceased person,
art bell ▲ ● ▼		you then have strong scientific support for some sort of having come to the threshold that you have come to with people like John Edward and others.
		Inevitably, you've heard some things about what life is like, or what existence is like, or consciousness is like on the other side.
		And once you believe them at one level, then I would like to at least know what you've heard so far.
		I understand these are not controlled experiments yielding results, but what have you heard, Doctor?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you the most interesting detailed information that I've just obtained.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And let me tell you about the context of this particular deceased person, and then I'll give you some of that information.
		Okay.
		Last February 11th, a little over a year ago, Susie Smith died.
		Now, Susie Smith was a woman who, just before she died, she was almost 90 years old, she had published a total of 30 books in the field of parapsychology and survival of consciousness after death.
		In fact, her Elastic book called The Afterlife Codes was published just shortly before she died.
		Now, Susie became my, so to speak, my adopted grandmother.
		She used to consider me her illegitimate grandson.
		She was a really lovely and very smart woman.
		And when she died, I began a scientific quest to see whether I could determine whether she was, if you would, still here.
		And in fact, I ended up publishing two scientific papers with a total of five different mediums documenting the continued existence of Susie Smith.
		Now, here's where it gets interesting.
		A medium in St. Louis, Missouri, her name is Janet, she, who I, by the way, never met in person, I've only spoken to on the telephone, Janet started receiving communication from Susie Smith.
		And we began an experiment, an ongoing experiment, where five days a week, Monday through Friday, Janet contacts Susie, and then Janet sends me an email where Susie describes, first of all, what she has witnessed taking place in my life in the previous day.
		Oh.
		And also, she describes what she sees happening in the future in my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so then obviously the first important piece of information is they can see us.
unidentified		Yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So the first thing we're able to verify, over and over, is that we can verify what Lori Campbell and other mediums say, which is our loved ones are only a thought away.
		Okay?
		That's fact number one.
		In fact, we're going to be working on a new book tentatively titled Messages from Susie that describes the whole series of the communications and controlled scientific experiments with Susie since she died.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the other side can see this side.
unidentified		Yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That's number one.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Number two, Susie has also now verified via Janet that she can see things in the future happening to me before they happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So now we are to imagine that from the other side, they see our linear time progression as a person from 10,000 feet would see a road and a car traveling along a road and everything that it was about to encounter.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		In fact, that's a very good metaphor.
		Thank you, Art.
		It's beautiful.
		It's a very good way of, you know, trying to express what...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're going to be able to see what that car is going to get to in 20 miles, 40 miles.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		It's a perfect example.
		I'm going to quote you on that.
		It's beautiful.
		So that's the second thing that we have.
		Now, the third thing that we have is data indicating that Susie can bring to Janet deceased people that I don't know who can then be independently verified by their relatives.
		So for example, and this, I'll just give you an example.
		This just happened two days ago.
		Are you ready for this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		It happened two days ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not sure, but go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you sitting down?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Are you lying down?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm sitting.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		You're sitting down.
		I met a family, a physician and his wife, and they had some deceased relatives who, of course, I've never met and know virtually nothing about.
		When I met this family, because of their deep interest in this work, what I did was, in their presence, since they know about John Edward and are very interested in this research, I invited Susie to contact their deceased relatives and bring them to Janet in Missouri, in St. Louis, Missouri.
		What I then told them was, and this was on Friday that I did this, on Monday morning, I emailed Janet and asked and told Janet that I had met a family who had some deceased loved ones and that I had invited Susie to bring them to her.
		Janet was then to contact Susie and to ask Susie to then invite these people to come to Janet.
		Janet then received information from the deceased people and mailed this information to me.
		Now, of course, when it came to me, I had no idea whether any of it applied to the family or not, right?
		I then passed the email from Janet, from Susie, from these deceased people, on to the doctor.
		And this doctor went through the material, and he emailed me back literally, I got on email a half hour before your show was to begin, and lo and behold, there was his email.
		And his email started off with a title that said something to the effect that Janet and Susie were more accurate than his tax accountant.
		And he went out to describe all the information that Janet had written in her email that precisely described his father, his deceased father, and other details about their deceased relatives.
		And I would say that the accuracy, if I was scoring it from what he described, was probably close to 90%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holy smokes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So what this also says is that people can meet each other in the afterlife.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Apparently.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Right?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That they can have relationships in the afterlife.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And distance is no object.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Distance is no object.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Time is no object.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Time is no object.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And apparently I don't know what we are to imagine about the nature of the other side.
		If they can see us and we cannot generally or normally under normal circumstances see them, then we must imagine some sort of one-way mirror or something like a one-way mirror.
		Or they have so many more abilities to see us than we do them.
		Much more of a struggle for us to see them.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Yes, because we're more limited than they are.
		And let me give you, again, a simple explanation for how to understand this.
		I know that you've had on your show various people who have talked about near-death out-of-body experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And you know that when people have these near-death experiences, they experience light.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		A bright light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A bright light.
		Oh, hold it right there.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		We have no choice.
		A bright light.
		Into the light.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		Dr. Gary Schwartz is my guest, and that's where we're all going, you know, into the light.
		Don't touch that dial.
		More to come.
unidentified		More to come.
		The mist across the window hides the light.
		But nothing's hard to come.
		The mist across the window hides the light.
		One or two days away.
		Jenny was sweet.
		She always smiled for people she needs.
		On trouble is dry.
		She had another way to get her right.
		Call Art Bell in the county.
		Kingdom of my from west of the Rockies at 1-800-6188255 East of the Rockies 1-800-8255-033 First-time callers may recharge at 17757271222 And the wildcard line is open at 17757271295 To recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed my guest is the remarkable Dr. Gary Schwartz.
		And what he has said tonight, I don't know how you're going to digest what he said tonight.
		Maybe we'll find out before the hour's over.
		Certainly we'll take some calls.
		I've got a couple of more things that I want to ask the good doctor, and then we will go to calls.
		Stay right where you are.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, back now to Dr. Gary Schwartz.
		Doctor, a couple of other things that I would like to run by you.
		One is an obvious question, and I wonder if anybody has been asked, and that is, of course, everybody wants to know if you have detected in any of the sessions experiments or asked or become aware that there is a creator,
		a God, whether any specific religion seems to be ever mentioned or whether the whole notion of a creator is not something that has even been broached in the experiments.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That's a great question.
		What's interesting is that, at least in terms of what people spontaneously tell us from the other side, if you would, in other words, the kinds of things that come through in these one or two hour readings, I can't think of a single reading where any spontaneous conversation about either religion or God was communicated.
		Now, that doesn't mean that if we asked deceased people about what is your experience of a God process, or have you seen any angels, or how have your perceptions of religion changed as a result of your experience, that we wouldn't get answers to those questions?
		It's just that, believe it or not, it has never, to my knowledge, spontaneously come up in these readings.
		Isn't that interesting?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is extremely interesting.
		Yes, extremely interesting.
		And the answer could be that you have not yet asked the question specifically or made that part of the experiment.
		Or, well, gosh, I'll leave it to everybody's imagination.
		Look, I was watching Larry King.
		Oh, gee.
		I don't know.
		It seems months ago now.
		And on Larry King, I think it was Sylvia Brown.
		And I'm going to have Sylvia Back myself pretty soon.
		And I hope I'm not wrong about that, but I think it was Sylvia Brown.
		And Larry King was going to conduct some experiments.
		Actually, he had the less-than-a-fully amazing Randy on with her, is my recollection, and they really kind of got into it.
		I thought she did comported herself very well in the face of what Randy was spewing out.
		But I never found out the results of those experiments.
		And I know that I guess Larry is not the only one doing this.
		Rosie O'Donnell is doing something along these lines, and you've got a lot to say about all of this.
unidentified		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I ended up, I said, I know you've got a lot to say about all of this, and I wonder what it is.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, first of all, the experiment that Randy described on the Larry King show, if I could be so blunt as to say this, is one of the poorest designed and most inadequate experiments that one could design to test the hypothesis.
		Because although most readers would remember this, and they're also not scientists, you know, most people watch the program, what James Randy was proposing was that a single sitter be read by Sylvia Brown,
		and then the single sitter would make a single rating, just an overall global rating, about how this information related to them.
		And then, in addition, this information would be given to other people to rate on some simple, single global measure.
		And based on that one reading and that one global measure, they would conclude whether she was a good medium or not.
		That's tantamount to asking Michael Jordan to shoot one basket and then making a decision about whether he's a superstar or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's ridiculous.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		It's so embarrassing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you recall how the experiment came out?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		They didn't do the experiment as far as I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know they had set it up to do it.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, they talked about it on television.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And never did it.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		To the best of my knowledge, it was never conducted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That certainly wouldn't have been anywhere near the class of experiments that you have done.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe you should be on Larry King.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's very interesting about that because, you know, Larry King, a year ago, had a program where he had a group of mediums, which included John Edward, James Von Prague, and Sylvia Brown, and some skeptics, including Leon Jariff.
		And he had written an article in Time magazine, essentially accusing John Edward as being a fraud.
		And John Edward, on this program, I was not on the program.
		They, by the way, just conveniently didn't have any scientists on the program.
		John Edward pointed out that he could not have been engaged in fraud.
		In fact, that he had conducted three experiments at that time at the University of Arizona.
		And Leon Jaroff made the following comment on national television.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Referring to your experiment.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Referring to me personally.
		He said, oh, Dr. Schwartz.
		He said, Dr. Schwartz believes in the tooth theory, levitation, UFOs, and the tooth theory.
		In fact, he repeated the tooth theory twice.
		He said, Dr. Schwartz is not a credible scientist.
		And that was the end of the discussion about the science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Now, when that happened, various people called me the next day, were infuriated, and said that I should actually have a lawsuit.
		This is slander because it's based on no fact, and of course it's completely derogatory.
		But since I'm not a litigious person, I didn't do anything, okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're probably a public person, too, just the way they are.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Now, listen to this.
		Two Weeks ago, on Saturday night, on Larry King, he had on Dr. Phil, who is a person who apparently is on Oprah every Tuesday.
		And they were talking about the afterlife.
		And Dr. Phil made a comment, essentially, saying that he believed in the afterlife, but there was no scientific evidence addressing the question, and not that even that it was unclear whether science could be done.
		And Larry King agreed.
		Now, the interesting thing was, however, Larry King had been sent a copy of the Afterlife Experiments book by the publisher, Pocket Books, which is a division of Simon Schuster, asking him, inviting him to have a discussion on this latest science on his television program.
		had declined to have the science discussed on his show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's unclear, but yet he was actually saying that there was no science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Larry is a pretty good guy.
		You know, I've been on his program.
		I spent a whole hour on his program, and he's a pretty genuine guy.
		have never even seen the book for a long time.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		It's very possible.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So here's what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's more than possible.
unidentified		Right, it's very possible.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		So, when I learned about this, what I suggested to the publisher was that what they should do is send a copy of the book to Dr. Phil and also to recontact Larry King's producers to inform him that Larry King is actually presenting false information to the public about this whole area and that he should have the Afterlife Experiments book discussed on his show.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And Larry King, again, producers decline.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, that's his, let me tell you, that's his producers.
		You know, Larry is very well insulated by his producers.
		I can tell you that right now.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Is that right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that is right.
		Yes.
		And it's in all likelihood Larry has never seen the book.
		And what I would suggest is, believe me, plenty of my listeners will write to Larry and suggest that he pursue this line, because obviously this is the scientific line, despite the statement you made a little while ago about whoever it was who slammed you.
		I wouldn't worry about that.
		I think that Larry is a very reasonable person, and if he understands the significance of your research and how carefully it was done compared to what he tried to do, he would have you on.
		I believe that.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		I think that you're right.
		And by the way, I hope that your listenership, which really cares about the truth about all this work, that they will write to Larry King, or they'll call Larry King.
		And what they'll do is they'll say, look, this book has appeared.
		This research exists.
		It deserves to be discussed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's seriously debated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's real.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		It's real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Research, yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		It is real.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		This is not vaporware.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, that will happen.
		So everybody out there who's got a way to write to Larry King, write to Larry King and urge him to get some real science on his show, this kind of science.
		You know, I think it's important for the American people to understand your research, to actually hear, as you have described on this program.
		Now, of course, you know, on television you have smaller, even with Larry King, who's got a pretty good long-form TV show as they go, you've got an hour minus breaks.
		That's not a lot of time, assuming he has you on for the entire hour.
		And it's hard to make your case as succinctly as you've been able to make it here tonight.
		But I'm sure with a little practice, you could compact it and probably get...
		Can you?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		I can give three hours.
		I can give five minutes.
		Depends upon what the environment allows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But obviously, the credibility rises greatly as you have more time to actually explain the details of all this.
		Some of them have to be in there.
		Why is that important?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		What's a tremendous, for me, a privilege is that you actually take the time to not only ask the questions and to really listen to the answers and then come to your own conclusion about the data.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And that's very reassuring, actually, for your listenership and for the public at large.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's the only way I know to do it.
		Anyway, this is extremely significant.
		It deserves large national publicity.
		What do you think?
		This is sort of a social question.
		What do you think the effect would be on us socially if the country suddenly embraced the hard science of life after death?
		I mean, if there appeared to be incontrovertible evidence, and you get, in my estimation, real close to that, incontrovertible evidence, there's life after death.
		How would that affect society?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that is a profound question, of course.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And in the afterlife experiments book, I have a chapter called How Would Our Lives Change?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
unidentified		Yes.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And it's a whole chapter devoted to this.
		And the bottom line, and I'll give you some specific examples, the bottom line is that every aspect of life, from science, education, religion, politics, personal lives, will be touched, directly or indirectly, by this shift in consciousness and awareness.
		Let me give you some simple examples.
		Let's take our personal lives.
		If we knew as an incontrovertible fact that death, that physical death was not the end of our life, and that in fact our life was much longer than that, we would then be able to reevaluate what's most important in our lives.
		And by the way, therefore, consider, seriously consider, putting more time into our personal relationships, into our families, into our children, into taking care of the planet, into doing good and responsible things on the Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would affect our thoughts about war.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		We affected our thoughts about war, about global peace, and so on.
		Give you another example.
		Take the legal system.
		If we knew, for example, that life continued, you could ask a question, well, gee, should a person, let's say a person's been murdered, should they be allowed to testify at their own trial after they've died using mediums?
		Should they be allowed to speak to the question of the kind of punishment that the perpetrator should do?
		How do we conceive of the death penalty once the death penalty is not actually ending life?
		Or consider the fact that you are deceased and your children are squabbling over your will.
		Do you have a right to revise your will and make sure that it's after death?
		What happens, for example, if you come up with an idea?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't care how good the evidence gets.
		We're a long way from that one.
		We're a long way.
		They won't even let lie detector results in.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
		But you see, what we have to do is once we entertain this hypothesis seriously, then we have to again allow, we have to look to the future.
		Remember, when the Wright brothers were first trying to get the plane off the ground, we had to look to the future, right, about how far airplanes would come.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, you know, now this is kind of interesting, Doctor, but the truth of the matter is, after the Wright brothers flew, a majority of the nation still refused to believe they had done it.
		Now, that's the truth.
		Despite the evidence, and there was tons of evidence, people didn't believe it.
unidentified		Right.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		And I think that's exactly what's happening in spades, this research with mediumship, even though people like John Edwards do this thing on television all the time.
		Now, of course, what people think is that he must be cheating.
		By the way, John Edward came to the University of Arizona a few weeks ago, and we did a controlled experiment.
		And partly it was my own personal suggestion to John, and it was partly his own conviction that I wanted to actually see whether or not what he does on television, the whole group of process could be brought into the laboratory.
		And we did an experiment with almost 300 people under blind conditions with curtains and complete secrecy in the whole nine yards.
		And much to my absolute amazement, everything that you see John do on television, we were able to replicate under the controlled conditions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I made a sort of a weak attempt to contact John Edward thinking I would like to interview him.
		I did that, oh, I don't know, about a year ago or so and didn't really follow up.
		But if you have an avenue to John Edward, would you please tell him that I indeed would like to interview him?
		Sure.
		Particularly after hearing all you have had to say tonight, I really think I would like to speak with him on the air.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		I think he would be a great interviewee for you, and I will certainly strongly suggest that he contact you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, done.
		Doctor, stay right there.
		We're going to go to the phones with Dr. Gary Schwartz in just a moment.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		This, of course, is Coast to Coast A.M. What else in the nighttime?
		We own the night.
unidentified		As the midnight moon was drifting through, the lazy sway of the trees.
		I saw the look in your eyes, looking into mine.
		Seein'what you wanted to see Darnin'don't say a word'Cause I already heard What your body's sayin'to mine I'm tired of fast moves I've got a slow groove
		oh Be it sight, sound, smell, or touch.
		There's something inside that we need so much.
		The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sand, or the strength of an oak leaves deep in the ground.
		The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up from tarmac to the sun again.
		Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing To have all these things in our memories home And they use them to help us to find Yeah!
		music
		Wanna take a ride?
		Call heartbell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-6188255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-8255-033.
		First time callers may reach Art at Area Code 7757271222.
		Or call the Wildcard line at 7757271295.
		To talk with Art on the Toll-Free International Line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be the ride, I guess, at the end of your life, wouldn't it?
		Dr. Gary Schwartz is my guest.
		And some of the information presented tonight should be very challenging, even to the biggest skeptics out there.
		In a moment, we'll go to the phones.
		Actually, simulates the sound of a modem connecting quite well.
		All right, Dr. Gary Schwartz is here, and we're about to go to the phones.
		Anything else you'd like to get in, Doctor, before we do?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		I think the only thing that I would say is that the most important thing about this work ultimately all relates to the topic of love.
		Because the final motivation that connects people, both here and there, is love.
		And that's what the mediums all claim.
		They all claim that our loved ones are only a thought away.
		They all claim that all of us, by the way, have the capability to develop these kinds of skills to various degrees, which, of course, is also something that can be addressed in future research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, mediumship is not exclusive to the ones that, you know, the names that roll off our lips like John Edwards.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		In fact, the metaphor that I use is that all of us can play basketball.
		We can all learn to make shots.
		Very few of us are going to be Michael Jordan's, but most of us can learn to play the game.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here we go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Schwartz.
unidentified		Hello.
		Yes, Art.
		A couple of things here.
		Number one, it's a pleasure and an honor to speak with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		I've watched you for about three years and tried, I don't know how many times to get in, but I never could.
unidentified		I'm out here at a big truck, and you and I have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles together here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here we are, so far away.
unidentified		Yeah, Dr. Schwartz, pleasure to talk to you too.
		Has anything ever come up on one other thing?
		You fill the void.
		Now, I've always felt like there's got to be something more than just this.
		And you really provided something for me tonight.
		You never know how much.
		But has anything come up about the possibility of reincarnation?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let's tackle that.
		Thank you.
		Reincarnation.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful question.
		Here's what's sort of novel about the implications of the discoveries that we've made.
		You see, if our energy is like the light from distant stars and it continues forever, then it's improbable that one could take all of that energy and squeeze it back into a single cell.
		So therefore, the idea that we could take all of our consciousness and put it back into a single cell is improbable.
		What is more probable is that what we can do is with our consciousness seed new cells as opposed to simply completely reincarnating.
		So rather than it being the question of reincarnation versus survival of consciousness, we come to an interesting idea of the possibility of reincarnation plus survival of consciousness.
		And that's actually consistent with some of the most ancient visions of religion about how, for example, in Christianity, how Christ could still be alive and well, if you would, and simultaneously be seeding or living in millions of people simultaneously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, millions would claim he is.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, onward.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Gary Schwartz.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Houston, Texas.
		Okay.
		And you know, it's really interesting, and I believe that destiny is one, and that's what we're talking about.
		And as far as your consciousness, in July 17th, 1997, I asked an observation telescope to look at a certain point of light.
		And I did that because I had a back surgery and I had lost my memory.
		And I used my computer, and I figured maybe I can look back and capture some known points in time and come back.
		And ironically, rather than look at past lives or contacting with people, the principle of being able to have space and time together and being able to have known points in time, I actually used, believe it or not, the Hubble telescope.
		And I did that to Stephen Hawking.
		And last couple of Augusts Ago, he ended up with severe bruises and a really, really bad situation.
		And I was tackling a problem on a computer, basically trying to take disorder into order.
		I figured maybe I could help myself recall and remember.
		and I actually took points in place and time on July 17, 1997, and asked for a known points, and then I predicted it slightly out into the future, and it gave a curve.
		And the anthropocopic principle of being able to take a memory and a space and your being, if you can...
		I took the most distant point of light that was the best known point of light, which is a point called 133247.
		It's the most distant part of the galaxy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That we can see?
unidentified		Well, that the Hubble Telescope could see.
		And what I did is, give an example, I deal in technologies and technology.
		I understand.
		But what I did is I picked colors of the spectrum that were slow enough to be able to predict, And I put GNOME points in time to see where those happened and happened and happened.
		And believe it or not, it came through a constellation of Capellas through Hercules and ended up getting me in contact with a person that you had interviewed, Howard Jones and James Wilkie.
		And what that had done is I ended up being in contact with someone that affected my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I think I've got it.
		Doctor, it might fit into this whole, you know, everybody now that I talk to almost is talking about this concept of non-locality.
		That everything is connected virtually in one sense or another to everything else, which I think is sort of what you're saying, too.
		And that information derived from remote viewers, maybe from people like this, maybe from Mr. Edward, exists everywhere.
		I mean, virtually is available to everyone everywhere.
		It's like some giant pool of cosmic information.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		The only interesting wrinkle that the afterlife experiment book proposes is that if the universe is literally filled with conscious beings, some of whom may have lived on the Earth and other planets,
		then phenomena like precognition and phenomena like remote viewing and phenomena like healing may actually involve some sort of, if you would, spirit-assisted capabilities.
		So the whole issue of genius or the whole issue of people who are the Mozarts of the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Hawkings, yeah.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and the Hawkings, that they may actually be receiving information from deceased individuals who have come before us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In any of your experiments or in any of your discussions with mediums, have you received any information that any of them have contacted what they believe to be a non-human entity?
		Or one that was never human?
		Yes.
		That was yes?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		The answer is yes.
		I mean, what's very interesting is when you talk to mediums about their conscious experience, many of them, for example, believe that they are receiving communication either from, for example, from angels who have never lived on the earth or from, quote, ETs or beings from other planets.
		And of course, that work is even more controversial in some respects than survival of consciousness per se.
		And one of the things that science can address in the future are things like what we call the angel hypothesis, or, for example, the guide hypothesis, or, for example, the extraterrestrial hypotheses.
		All of these questions can be addressed in future research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on air with Dr. Gary Schwartz.
		Hello.
unidentified		Dr. Schwartz, and to some extent you are also, I've got this story that I haven't discussed in 20 years.
		And I had an experience with a ghost.
		I was in Germany on my honeymoon.
		My wife and I were traveling all over, and we spent about a week there.
		Well, we went to visit Neuss Veinstein, and that's located in Schwangau.
		Well, around evening time, so the way we traveled, we didn't have any prearranged reservations, so we just picked places wherever we went.
		And somebody steered me to this place that they said was being remodeled, and it hadn't been used since World War II, and it was a former barracks.
		Well, we went in there and tried it.
		It looked clean and brand new, and they were still painting, in fact, and we were their first guest.
		They really didn't know what to do with us, actually, and they didn't know whether to turn us away or not, but we had no place to stay, so they gave us a finished room down the hall.
		And it was way the heck down.
		And you know, if it was a barracks, it was kind of a shotgun-like arrangement.
		Well, we were way down in the middle of it.
		And when we got in our room, it started storming, and I said, you know, this is kind of spooky being in this barracks here.
		And my wife and I were sitting in bed, and lo and behold, the shutters outside started to clatter, and we had lightning and all this kind of stuff.
		Well, then I heard something, and my wife heard it too.
		It was the sound of hobnailed boots marching in unison down the hall.
		And, you know, I mean, they just went past us in the hall.
		I said, look, her name's Patty.
		I said, Patty, look, don't go to sleep.
		I said, you know, normally I don't get scared by things like this, but I said, I'm scared, you know.
		But as it is with my wife, she goes to sleep regularly at 10 o'clock regardless and fell asleep.
		Well, there I was.
		And so finally, I tossed around and I finally got to sleep.
		Well, about 2 o'clock in the morning, and this has never happened to me before.
		I just shot bolt upright in bed.
		I had no reason to.
		You know, I had no dream or anything like that.
		All of a sudden, my eyes were wide open.
		I sat straight up in bed.
		And at the foot of the bed was a glowing orb.
		I mean, that thing had to be at least four feet tall.
		It wasn't a white light.
		It was sort of a yellowy white light.
		And I knew it was a man.
		I knew it was a man.
		I couldn't speak.
		I was so scared.
		I looked at that thing, and I couldn't even get words to come out of my mouth.
		I couldn't move my left arm to wake my wife up.
		And finally, I managed to push her, you know, and wake her up.
		I turned around and looked at her.
		When I looked back, the thing was gone.
		Now, I don't believe in ghosts.
		I still don't believe in them.
		I'm a Christian scientist.
		If you know anything about that, you know that we just don't give credence to that.
		But I'm telling you, I saw this thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I certainly appreciate the stories there.
		Now, lots of people have been recently telling stories about these manifestations of these orbs, these balls of energy or light or whatever they are.
		And I'm sure you've heard many similar stories.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		In fact, we were talking about this earlier.
		And let me give you the explanation for this.
		We normally assume that because when the sun goes down, it looks dark.
		We normally assume that in the absence of sunlight, there is no light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		But what we forget is that our eyes only see a narrow spectrum of light.
		So, for example, we don't see infrared and we don't see ultraviolet.
		If we could see infrared and ultraviolet, we would discover that it's never dark.
		In fact, the universe is much brighter than what we see with our eyes.
		So what happens theoretically when we die is that we're no longer constrained by our eyes.
		And that's the reason why we can see ever brighter light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I've talked to a lot of experimenters, sorry to interrupt, who have been using night vision equipment, which depends on the infrared.
		And they have been seeing things they absolutely cannot account for.
		I've heard some remarkable, just absolutely remarkable stories about things seen with this equipment.
		Now, that simply extends our vision into the infrared, and it doesn't begin to go into the other spectrums.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		So once we become aware that most of the light that exists in the universe we cannot see with our naked eyes, we immediately begin to recognize all of this possibility.
		And that's what I'm trying to convey, is that there's a very good reason to say that these, quote, ghost phenomena are real.
		The problem is that we get so scared by them.
		I mean, put yourself in the shoes of a dead person.
		You want to reveal yourself, but whenever you do, you frighten the people you're trying to communicate with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Very frustrating.
		You have two books I want to be sure and get the plugs in.
		You've got The Afterlife Experiments, the one that we've been talking about tonight, Breakthrough Scientific Evidence of Life After Death, Good, Hard Science.
		And then, of course, The Living Energy Universe, your first book.
		So Afterlife Experiments is available now on amazon.com through my website, however you want to get there.
		And I guess it's sort of a longer, more detailed, very specific version of what people heard to some degree tonight.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		However, what's important is that the book was co-written by a professional writer who speaks in plain English.
		And we have all these transcripts, and we tell the story behind the story.
		And so what happens is that it brings all of this to light and to life.
		And the book was written for whether you're a believer or an agnostic or a skeptic.
		It's written in a way that literally anyone who has an interest in the discovery process and the adventure of exploration can enjoy this kind of thing.
		And I wrote this with the hope that anybody who was interested in this topic, that it would be accessible, that it would be fun, it would at least be entertaining, if not challenging in terms of raising our consciousness about all this work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope a lot of people go grab it up.
		Wildcard line, not a lot of time, but you're on the air with Dr. Schwartz.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		This is the first time I've called you, so I'm a little bit nervous.
		I've had a question I've been wanting to ask you, and this guest just seemed to be the perfect time to ask it.
		I'm going to toss this out.
		As far as when you cross over or whatever, I believe the Internet has a lot of energy and stuff behind it, and then you have a lot of energy in yourself, and when you cross over, do you think there's any way that someone from the other side or whatever you want to call it could communicate through the Internet now or something like that?
		That's a dumb question, but you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no.
		No, that is not a dumb question.
		Doctor, I've talked to, I don't know how many people who have said the Internet is a developing ultimate neural network of its own.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I would say that it is completely plausible that deceased individuals are going to be able to activate all of this technology, particularly as we design it in such a way where we allow them to receive it.
		And so one of the things that we're doing is we're actually developing new technology, drawing on internet phenomena and audio phenomena and light phenomena, taking advantage of the latest technology, but designing it in such a way where, quote, spirits can activate the technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's all we need.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The dead on the internet.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		It's already clogged enough.
		Well, we have a motto in the lab.
		You know what the motto is?
		My students sometimes laugh at me about it.
		It's semi-humorous, which is, it's going to get worse before it gets even worse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doing these kind of experiments must be fun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess the only way that you can be reimbursed in any way at all at this point in your career is by doing what you have done, and that is writing books, correct?
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		In fact, there's no way to raise money for this kind of research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Precisely.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		The NIH doesn't support it.
		NSF doesn't support it.
		Private foundations even don't support it.
		So save for a few anonymous donors, we and the mediums have paid this virtually all out of pocket.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Got to do it yourself.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		It's do-it-yourself research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can't tell you how I want to thank you for being here tonight.
		We will do another program, I'm sure, soon.
		Your information is absolutely astounding.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you so much for having me.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		You are the ideal person to discuss this material, let me tell you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care, my friend.
gary schwartz ▲ ● ▼		You too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
		All right, as I promised, I'm going to go get On the 40-meter amateur band, and I'm going to be near 7225, actually, more like 7223, or whatever I can find that's you know clear close to that point.
		So, in about five minutes, I'm going to be on the 40-meter band as requested by somebody who fast-blasted me about an hour ago.
		So, again, 40-meter band, lowers high band, I don't know, 7223 or somewhere in there, somewhere where there's a clear frequency close to that.
		You will hear me.
		My call letters, by the way, my ham call is W6OBB, Whiskey6Ocean, Bravo, Bravo.

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