Art Bell

All Episodes

Previous Next

Feb. 14, 2002 - Art Bell

02:47:44

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Philip Tierno MD - Bioterrorism, Secret Life of Germs. Jim Berkland - Earthquake Predictions

Participants

Main voices

45:44

jim berkland

24:36

philip tierno

01:13:04

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Welcome to Arkbell, Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 14th, 2010.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest webinar.
		Good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be, located in all 249 zones from the globe covered by this program, which is Coast to Coast AM.
		I'm Arkbell.
		You had better get ready for, well, first, you know, there's good news and bad news.
		There always is, right?
		The good news, I think, is that the six men named in an FBI terrorism alert this week are now in custody in Yemen and elsewhere have now been removed from the list of those being fought.
		And hopefully will be permanently removed.
		So that's the good news.
		Now, the bad news is the man who has successfully predicted too many good earthquakes, Jim Birkland, is my guest coming up this hour.
		And why, you might ask, would I have Jim Birkland here in a moment's notice?
		Well, because I began to get emails from all of you, or many of you, I should say, saying, hey, Jim Birkland saying that more pets are disappearing and he's got all kinds of information indicating there's about to be a pretty good-size earthquake.
		That's why Jim Birkland is here.
		In a moment, he will make his appearance.
unidentified		Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Art Bell All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jim Birkland is an interesting guy indeed.
		He was the first official geologist for Santa Clara County, which is only the most populated county in Northern California.
		Northern California has a habit of shaking.
		In fact, as does California generally.
		He predicted the 1989 World Series earthquake, hit it dead on the head.
		He's in Who's Who in America, and he's got a few things to say about what condition our condition is in at the moment.
		Jim Birkeland, welcome back.
		Long time.
		Thank you.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Real pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Great to have you.
		Well, Jim, I started getting these emails from people fairly frantic saying, you know, I'm hearing Jim Birkeland say that pets are disappearing all of a sudden and a lot of them at that.
		What's any truth to that?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, not as much as to really raise my level of concern to an extreme level.
		Like just before the World Series quake, we had 58 missing dogs and 27 missing cat ads in the local paper, and there's normally about 3, 4 cats and 15 or 20 dogs.
		So right now, in the LA Times, there are 17 missing dogs, which is the highest since the 6th of September.
		And three days later, there was a 4.2 quake, right, practically under the La Brea tar pits.
		So that was the strongest quake since September was that one.
		And we're tying the number of missing pets at that time.
		But what's of more concern, I think, is what Jack Coles has observed with the glitches in the radio and television.
		He was an electronic quiz and noted that there were sudden pops and snaps when he had the shielding off the television he was working with, a couple of firms, television repair.
		And then there would be a small shake in the San Jose area.
		And after about the third time, he put it together that there must be something coming out of the ground that causes electronic interference.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wouldn't surprise me for one second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course there is.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And so he began then to pin down even the direction.
		The first time I ever heard of him, somebody said, you know, there's some fellows kind of trying to take over your job and predicting earthquakes around here.
		And he has a little notice in the paper.
		So I said, well, I'll straighten this guy out.
		Hello, this is Jim Berkeland.
		Oh, Mr. Birkland, you know, I've been following you for some years.
		And really, it was coincidental.
		He says, just as the phone rang, I got a final confirmatory signal that we're going to have this, about a 4.2 quake around here within a few days.
		And I said, well, can you pin it down better than that?
		You know, trying to egg and all of it.
		Well, it looks like tomorrow.
		I said, oh, about what time?
		And he said, well, it's a little hard to say, but about 9.30.
		And I said, well, what direction?
		From San Jose.
		He said, well, when they're this close, it's pretty hard to separate, but I just know it's within about 30, 40 miles of San Jose.
		The next day at 9.40, we had a 4.0.
		And I said, huh.
		And I called him up to congratulate him.
		And he pointed out a couple more quakes that happened.
		And he said, you know, at church on Sunday before the Tuesday World Series earthquake or Loma Creative quake, he had warned his congregation of this upcoming big quake because he had some of the biggest signals he'd ever seen.
		Well, he just now warns us that the signals that preceded that and Northridge and Landers and the Colby quakes were exceeded by what he just observed on the 26th of January.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh my god.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And he finds that the optimum dates are squares, like 2, 4, 9, 16, 25 days.
		And so the dates that he's picked up this time was between the 11th of February and the 15th of March, the Ides of March.
		Now this was especially interesting because you had a couple of predictors that were talking about the first week in February.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I did, yes.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And so when you put that together with a lot of people reporting strange animal behavior, and then from my standpoint, at the end of this month, we're having the optimum seismic window of the year based upon the tides from the sun and moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know that's been an important factor for you, and I've seen your quake predictions come true in those windows again and again and again and again.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's just lay it out.
		I summarize this here on the last page of my latest newsletter, Syzygy.
		And if people would like to get a sample copy, they can send me a self-addressed stamped envelope with a couple of bucks in it.
		So here's, to be concise, this is why I'm concerned about February.
		The seismic window of February 24th to March 3rd figures to be quite potent.
		The highest oceanic tides until December will occur on February 26th and 27th, with an 8.1-foot range at the Golden Gate and a 14.4-foot range in Puget Sound on February 27th.
		The astronomical tidal effects on the Earth's crust will be even more stressful.
		The solid Earth, of course, moves up and down as well as the ocean waters.
		Because of the full moon on February 27th, when the Sun, Moon, and Earth are lightened up, that's physygy.
		And that will be only 11 hours before the closest approach of the moon, the perigee, for the whole year.
		And the fact that we are less than two months after perihelion, which is the closest separation of the Earth and the Sun.
		So at this month's perigee, the Moon will be only 221,633 miles from the Earth.
		And that will be within 200 miles of the closest possible distance.
		And the nearer these astronomical bodies are, the higher the tides.
		In fact, the tide-raising force varies with the cube of the distance.
		Not just the square of the distance or the distance, but the cube of the distance.
		Which is why the effect of the moon on our tides is almost about twice as much as the effect of the sun, because the moon is so much closer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		And so you would make a window out of that, wouldn't you?
		In other words, if the exact date is February 27th, you'd put a window around that, right?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so February 24th to March 3rd is the eight-day window.
		And so I'm calling for a 3.5 to 6 magnitude quake with 140 miles of Montiablo.
		Well, it's just east of San Francisco.
		I'm now north of San Francisco instead of south.
		So I've spread out my area of concern a little bit so I can share in my own predictions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and Jack Cole's prediction?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		He says the Bay Area and secondarily the Los Angeles area.
		And sometimes, as in 1906 when we had our 8.2 quake here, the Great San Francisco earthquake quake on April 18th, that afternoon at 4.30 there was a 6.5 down in the southern part of the state near Brawley that did quite a bit of damage down there.
		It was in essence an aftershock of the great quake up here.
		And when I asked Bruce Bolt, a seismologist from Berkeley about that about 15 years ago, he said, you know, he's quite aware of that.
		And that does open up the possibility of a superquake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A superquake.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		The whole fault rifts at once.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jack Cole's prediction, is he specific with regard to the Richter scale?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and it's really a little troublesome because he says a 7 or an 8.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		When he sees the greatest anomaly he's ever seen with electronic glitches there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you explain a 7 or 8 is a catastrophic earthquake?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An 8 is catastrophic.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		A 7.1 was the World Series quake, and that's called a major quake.
		We normally get around the world 16 major quakes per year.
		This year, so far, we've only had one, and it came three days after the January full moon.
		But we haven't had one since.
		Now, we normally get about one great earthquake, an eight per year.
		And last year, we had 19 quakes that exceeded 7.0, and 15 were in my seismic window, and one was just a day out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		That's some record.
		So in other words, we're looking at your window, the biggest probably opportunity of the year from your point of view, and we're looking at Jack Coles.
		May I understand more about what exactly is Jack Coles monitoring?
		You said television interference of some kind.
unidentified		Yes.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		You remember the work of Stanford professor Tony Frazier Smith, Dr. Smith, was doing some work for the military on communication with the naval submarines, nuclear submarines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And of course, they need high power, very low frequency to communicate with them when they're down a few hundred feet below the surface.
		And so they were looking for optimum times for these communications because things like BART, and streetcars and things like that, and large dynamos of various kinds, cause interference with communication.
		So they're looking for windows of time, quiet windows.
		So they were monitoring in the quiet area up on the Santa Cruz Mountains.
		Well, the station that he had, coincidentally, was only about three miles from the epicenter of the Loma-created quake.
		And about a month before the quake, his background levels suddenly jumped up about twice, still very low levels, but they were about twice what they had been.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what frequencies were they monitoring at?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Less than 10 hertz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		10 hertz.
		And that's down Near the ULF and ELF category.
		Oh, it certainly is.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And so, and then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, that's near Schumann resonance, isn't it?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		I don't know even the term.
unidentified		Okay.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		But when the quake happened, it knocked off the power.
		And when he got to his instrument a couple days later, he found that about an hour before the quake, it had gone off scale.
		And then when everything reconnected, there were a number of aftershocks.
		It was quite chattery for a while.
		And it never achieved that high anomaly again.
		But the quakes never achieved more than about a 5.5 Richter for aftershocks.
		So it seemed that he was really onto something.
		We know that there are earthquake lights for earthquakes, often.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which would have to be electromagnetic in nature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		So they think of the quartz.
		It is gasoelectric.
		And it's also, and they've only discovered this in the last 25 years, that it's tribal luminescent.
		When you rub it, it glows like...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I played with that the other night.
		And I've got some pretty good-sized pieces of crystal here.
		And I went in during a break to a dark room and rubbed them together.
		And it bowled me over.
		I couldn't believe it.
		Not only were there sparks, but there were these little weird lights as well.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, the whole crystal, if it's a nice rock crystal, it glow internally.
		Yeah, oh, yes.
		But if you rub it together and then smell it, you actually get the smell of ozone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, oh, yes.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		You think lightning's going off.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, that phenomenon associated with quartz, the most common mineral in the world, was not known by scientists until the 1970s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So does that mean that when they get signals like that, then down deep somewhere, compressed quartz is rubbing together?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, most rocks on the continents have quartz in them, and most of our beach sands are made up of quartz.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		If you go over to Hawaii, you don't have any quartz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we get these electromagnetic bursts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But there's a big difference between listening down in the Hertz range, very low, and television, which is, you know, that's UHF.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a whole range of frequencies and harmonics and everything else.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And that adds to the complexity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it would be all the way across the spectrum, actually.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Now, I'm not quite sure what they were measuring in Alaska in 1964, but on the island of Kodiak, they had installed a device to measure the ionosphere, the radiation from their electromagnetic radiation of the ionosphere.
		And it suddenly went to a 100-gamma anomaly.
		They'd never seen anything like it.
		Normally, a daily change is two or three gammas.
unidentified		Right.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And sometimes maybe five or ten before an earthquake.
		Oh, it went to 100.
		And they thought, oh, that can't be this damn machine and kicking the machine, I guess, the equipment.
		Well, that afternoon, they had the 8.5 Great Alaskan quake on the day of the full moon.
		And there's so many scientists that think, oh, that was coincidence.
		And that's what really gripes me.
		When you get the evidence and you turn your back on it, it's just foolish.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your prediction is for the 24th through the 3rd, your window.
		Does Jack Coles make a similar 11th through the 15th is his window.
		11th through the 15th.
		Yeah.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Of March.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of March.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Now, there's something else.
		Of course, despite his many successes, he's had a couple of spectacular failures, I guess, like we all have.
		But the most spectacular failure brings chills down my spine because he was so concerned back in 1991 that this terrible event was going to occur because he had not only the electronic signals, but he had premonition, call it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And so much so that he had his family evacuated to the San Joaquin Valley from San Jose.
		And the media was right on him, following him locking the door and everything and sending the family off.
		The date he was concerned about was 9-1191.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And exactly 10 years was something else for us to be concerned about.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		So I think that Jack has something more going for him than just electronic signals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Jim, I've been doing a lot of work in this big collective mind.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, it just might, all of this, in fact, might fit possibly into that category.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've been watching Crossing Over.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		I stumbled onto it about a month over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And I'm fascinated by that show.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And I can say, if he's merely a showman, he is doing wonders of comforting people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really good at what he does.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You refer, of course, to John Edwards.
		Jim, hold on.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		We'll be right back.
		Jack Coles, talking about a 7 or an 8.
		Jim Berkland, something lesser, both in roughly the same area.
unidentified		This is Premier Networks.
		That was R. Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
		on this, Somewhere in Time.
		Music
		Music
		Since the day I saw the cat at my door So I came in to you, sweet lady Answering your mystical call Crystal ball on the table Showing the future to the past Same cat with them evil eyes And I knew it was a spell she cast She's just a
		devil woman with evil on her mind Beware the devil woman, she's gonna get you She's just a devil woman with evil on her mind Beware the devil woman, she's gonna get you from behind Get me the ring on your finger When you see the lines on
		your hand I can see me a tall, dark stranger Giving you what you had planned I drank the potion she had your me You are listening to Art Bell somewhere in time tonight featuring Coast to coast AM from February 14th 2002 you know I don't much like what I'm hearing tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		this is quadruple reaching jack calls with a prediction of the seven eight earthquake jim berkland my guest right now with his own prediction roughly in the same time period where the uh...
		end of february in the first part of those march with the electronics and then there's the dogs and the cats cover quadruple reaching and then by the way speaking of cats on the front page of my website tonight under what's new you're going to want to look at this because researchers in texas have cloned a cat this is from the bbc and i've got a link directly to it for you and they have a picture of the cat up there the cat's name
		is cc haha it's a cute little cat but take a good look at its like little on the work is described in the scientific journal nature and is the first time anyone has cloned a pet cc is a copy of her genetic mother not of the surrogate cap which actually birthed her but i was in jeans and the same color code as her genetic mother cc
		has a different food pattern given these patterns are not exclusively down to jeans wall street journal saying the work at texas and university was financed by an eighty one-year-old financier called john spurling who wants to charge wealthy pet owners to clone their animals he was put by reuters news agency is saying that he'd also like to see cloning used for socially useful animals such as rescue
		dogs you want to see a picture of cc out kidding about the eyes cc along with the story the full story is on my website right now right right right right right right right right right right you're listening to art bell somewhere in time tonight
unidentified		featuring coast to coast a.m. from February 14th 2002 quadruple witching Birkeland's prediction Cole's prediction the moon the animals and again about animals what do you think Jim about this animal reaction
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What have you concluded, if anything, over the years?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		No question about it.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Animals detect changes in electromagnetic fields that precedes quakes because of strain in the crust affecting the magnetic minerals like magnetite, nilmanite, and chromite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think it would make them run away?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		They are used to navigating by means of the magnetic fields, whether it's marine mammals or bees or homing pigeons.
		And when there become these glitches in the field that they're used to depend on, just linking to the magnetic field that goes from pole to pole, prior to quakes there are these local anomalies.
		And so you can imagine, they now pretty well understand that whales travel in magnetic loads.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, there's no question about it.
		So what you're saying really is they don't run away, Jim.
		They get lost.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, they become very uneasy.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Now, if we're used to seeing a nice golden sun out there, if it should suddenly turn purple and pink and wink off and on, we'd get very upset.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Some of us would burrow in under the covers, and others might just take off blindly.
		And as an old hunter, when we'd take a new dog out on a deer hunt, and you'd see a deer, and bangety-bang, bang.
		And these young dogs, they would panic and just run off totally out of control, and you might get lucky to find them 15 miles away.
		But they had to get used to this anomaly.
		When I worked in the Santa Clara County building, they had this white sound.
		And the only time it would, that was so weird.
		You weren't bothered by somebody's telephone conversation in the next desk, you know.
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And for about three weeks, the women especially said, we can't work under these conditions.
		Do something.
		And then all of a sudden, it got into the background.
		They totally forgot about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		White noise, really.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		White noise, exactly.
		And so the only time there'd be a disturbance in that white noise, you'd hear some static, and then somebody would have picked up a microphone upstairs, said, folks, there's been a bomb scare.
		We have to walk down the stairs.
		There's going to be a fire drill.
		They would never say, you're all doing a great job.
		Keep it up.
		It was always something bad.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Huh.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		So when you heard a break in the white noise, you perked up your ears and said, oh, boy, what's this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's coming, yeah.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And so that's where the animals react.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was really the first thing you worked on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		on wasn't it i mean you you were making predictions uh by watching the number of lost animals no actually that came five years after i started using the tides oh really i made uh I saw that the highest tidal force in about three or four years was coming on January 8th, 1974.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And I thought then that this close approach of the moon on the same day as the perigee and lined up with the sun, moon, earth, that might cause the solid earth to move up and down as well as the ocean waters.
		And sure enough, that was the case.
		I didn't know it at the time.
		But I looked in the six quakes that had greeted me into Santa Clara County, and they all fit this time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, Jim, is there any way that you could suggest or imagine that a quake the magnitude of Jack Cole's prediction?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, what I'm asking is that a quake of that magnitude would be along the San Andreas.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		If it's an 8, it would just about have to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would have to be?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		To get a quake, a great earthquake, you have to have a long fault line.
		And in 1906, it ruptured for 270 miles, which is one of the reasons that I just scoff at trying to lower the magnitude down to a 7.7, as some people in high science have tried to do in recent years.
		That would make it, say it wasn't even a great earthquake, and it ruptured the ground 270 miles for a maximum displacement of 21 feet, and you don't get that from a 7.7.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Since you know the geology and the building practices along the San Andreas, at least certainly up in your area, what would an eight-point quake do in your area?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've had such new regulations, building codes.
		I don't think it would be as severe as 1906 if it were on the San Andreas.
		If it were even a 7.5 on the Hayward Fault in the East Bay, it might be worse because it's so close to all the buildings.
		The main fault went right through Kobe, and they hadn't even considered that part of Japan to be that earthquake-prone, and they got a major earthquake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, wouldn't something that size on the San Andreas have a good chance of setting the other one off or the other way around?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, it didn't.
		There has been an effect of a lag time about two to five years where it seems that it has ricocheted back and forth from one side of the bay to the other.
		But it doesn't cause large quakes at the same time.
		Following the World Series quake in 1989, about a week later there was something like a four magnitude on the Hayward Fault.
		And it did cause quite a bit of apprehension that it might have been another foreshock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I was about to ask about foreshocks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How frequently is a major quake foreshadowed by a foreshock?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		In California, about half the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Half the time.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		That's all.
		And in California, about half of the damaging earthquakes have been on faults they either hadn't recognized or thought were not a problem.
		So we were constantly learning.
		And it was like the Northridge earthquake was on a fault that was deeply buried, didn't even reach the surface.
		And so they were unaware of that.
		The Koalinga quake in 83, the same thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dumb question for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Other than using the methods that you use and Jack Coles uses, why don't we know more about earthquakes by now, Jim?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		I think it's a scientific ego many times, not born here syndrome.
		Like we tried to emulate what the Chinese did with the animals and set up a four-year program funded by the USGS and through Stanford Research.
		And it was called Earthquake Watch.
		And I was a member for three of those four years, made some predictions that hit, and reported on animals that I was observing and that friends were telling me about.
		Towards the end of the program, their newsletter said there had been seven earthquakes in California preceded by so many hotline calls, there was only one chance in thousands that it was accidental.
		Now, this was the best program they had, and they dropped it immediately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right after that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, that program had more success than any other all the lasers and the measurement stuff that they did.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		I can't think of another success they've had.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why would they drop it, Jim?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Because it was hard to justify it to Congress.
unidentified		What?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		You're going to study animals?
		Come on.
		I would rather fund this $500,000 black box for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How stupid are we?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah.
		Well, why are they not looking at the tides?
		In fact, there are hundreds of papers in the world literature demonstrating the statistical validity of tides and quakes.
		There are also almost an equal number saying there's nothing to it.
		And I've seen leading scientists completely change 180 degrees over time.
		And so truth is hard to establish if every time you find some evidence, they turn their back on it and say, we don't see any evidence.
		And, well, I haven't missed a five-magnitude quake in the Bay Area since 1973.
		And we had one over here in Napa Valley.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, I just had somebody send me something by, it could be totally inaccurate.
		Somebody says about 10 minutes ago, there was a 5.3 earthquake near the coast of Chiapas, Mexico.
		5.3, it says.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's called a moderate earthquake.
		And it's about a monthly occurrence down in Mexico.
		But this is a likely time.
		We just had the new moon on the 12th of February.
		And on that same day, there was the 3.0 just north of Seattle, the strongest of the year, western Washington.
		That's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, with all of these things coinciding, what advice would you give to people?
		The standard stuff, I suppose.
		I mean, what advice do you give?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are numbers of things to think about.
		If you got ready for Y2K, then you're ready for a strong earthquake.
		I bought a generator and we put in a 2,500-gallon water tank, and I say, you've got your generators going, wind and solar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So power could be out for days or even longer.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		And water is the number one problem, not only for fighting fires, but just for staying alive.
		Now, we've had well over our annual supply of rainfall here in Sonoma County, so we're in good shape.
		But lots of the country is under drought conditions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, and in a large earthquake, what would happen to the distribution system for water?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, we know what happened in 1906.
		It just absolutely ruptured them, where the pipelines crossed the fault line.
		And then where you get liquefaction and sandy soils that are saturated, it just shakes longer and stronger and just ruptures pipes and other things.
		Oh, there's something going on in Southern California, too, that hasn't been resolved yet.
		There's this gas, this stinky gas that spread over a couple of counties down there last night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hadn't heard about that.
unidentified		Oh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What, what, what?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope it's...
		It hasn't been explained.
		If it's H2S, hydrogen sulfite or the rocky, the rotten egg smell, that's the kind of thing that does precede quakes.
		It's one of the clues as your well waters begins to stink.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where did you get this?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Somebody sent me a copy from the Times, and it's been on the internet here.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		There's a whole series of things on my website under Phenomena.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
		Yeah.
		That doesn't sound real good at all.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		No.
		And I do want to make sure that people know just exactly where I stand on this.
		I'm not nearly as concerned about a big one here in the next month as I was prior to the Loma Prieta quake.
		Before Loma Prieta, we had, instead of 20 missing dogs, we had 58, which was one of the all-time highs, and they ended the all-time high of missing cats.
		Also, we had unusual rare whales beaching themselves at Santa Cruz and Ocean Beach.
		And we had a waterfall that had been just trickling, begin to flow in high volume.
		We had banana slugs and newts crawling through the woods.
		They could hardly avoid them.
		We had homing pigeons that couldn't find their way home.
		We had seagulls flying miles inland.
		And this one here, there were a number.
		One doctor said all 10 of his multiple sclerosis patients deteriorated rapidly just before Loma Prieta.
		And right after Loma Prieta, they got back to where they were before.
		And I have a very good friend.
		The same thing happened to her.
		And we didn't put it together until this doctor called me.
		And that made 11 out of 11.
		And when you have MS, your nervous system, your body attacks the insulation.
		And so you are very susceptible to stray electronic radiation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the fact that all of these things are true and documented, and you've documented them again and again and again, even a scientist, Jim, should be susceptible to numbers.
		I mean, to collected information.
		To not be sensitive is to not be scientific.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's been my standpoint ever since 1974.
		And it's amazing the heat I've taken.
		But actually, in the last few months, there's a lot more credibility being established.
		I've been asked to give talks at scientific meetings.
		And some of my longtime critics have eased off and says, well, maybe there's something to it, but it's not enough so we can use it yet.
		See, mainstream science has said it is impossible to predict earthquakes.
		They only came to that conclusion after they failed dozens of times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I remember some spectacular warnings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy, they thought they had it nailed and they warned of it, and it just didn't happen.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, they gave it a 95% chance for the sixth magnitude at Parkfield halfway between Los Angeles and San Francisco.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why were they so damn sure of themselves?
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, they looked at history and they said, well, gee, they had a quake about that big in 1857 and 1881 and 1901 and 1922, so about every 22 years.
		And it didn't bother them that there was one in 34, just 12 years after the 22 one.
		And then it wasn't again until 1966 when I felt the two down at Koalinga.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they were going by a pattern.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And you can't deny history, but it's not the final answer.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		And they went way overboard on their probabilities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They had the statistics, you know, but I remember seeing on CNN people packing up and leaving and all the rest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, I remember.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Well, so I don't suggest anything like that.
		If you are, if you're living in the earthquake country, you should be well aware of it.
		You should explain it to the kids.
		You should pick up things from the Red Cross and the Office of Emergency Services and the planning departments and the geology departments.
		Educate yourself.
		Get the book Peace of Mind in Earthquake Country by Peter Yanov or the book Earthquake Country by Sunset.
		If you want to find out about what the animals are doing, the best, absolutely the top book on that subject that should be reprinted is When the Snakes Awake by Helmut Tribute, an absolutely incredible book.
		And he said in the foreword, when a scientist comes up against a totally inexplicable, mysterious phenomenon, he is inclined to be cautious.
		If he is smart and concerned about his reputation, he will take no public position on it.
		But when the phenomenon is one on which life and death may depend, and when those enigmatic observations made under tragic circumstances are passed on to him by people whom he knows and trusts, then he cannot escape serious Conflicts of conscience.
		And that was exactly the position that I've been in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, scientists have always said weird things.
		Everything that can be invented has been invented.
		That was Charles H. Dewell, U.S. Commissioner of Patents, in 1899.
		Get this.
		There is no known reason for any individual to have a computer in their home.
		Kenneth Olson, president and founder of Digital Equipment Corporation, 1977.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Storms of the sun have nothing to do with weather on the earth.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Lord Kelvin, about 1890.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Harry M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927.
unidentified		So, yes, yes, indeed.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		So we have to be persistent.
		My colleague at the U.S. Geological Survey, in fact, my mentor, Edgar Bailey, he said, Jim, I don't know about this Syzergy thing you're dealing with, but you're never going to convince your severest critics.
		Your goal should be to outlive them or have your ideas outlive them.
		And I'm working on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're all watching these days.
		All right, listen, thank you for being on the program.
		Scissor G, the newsletter available.
		Just send a couple bucks.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Self-addressed stamped envelope.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise, they won't get it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because you just can't do that much licking.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not an older geologist, anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jim, thanks.
jim berkland ▲ ● ▼		You're welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care, everybody.
		All right, so there you go.
		That's a quadruple witching for you.
		Something that you need not panic about, but certainly you want to note it.
		Maybe you even want to write it down.
		If you're in California, you didn't get ready for Y2K, you might want to get ready now.
		Store a little water.
		Have a good radio.
		Have a good light.
		Do the sensible things to get ready for what may come.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		The Trip Back in Time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
		More Somewhere in Time coming up.
		More Somewhere in Time coming up.
		Be it sight, sand, smell, or touch, there's something inside that we need so much.
		The sight of the touch, or the scent of a sand, or the strength of an oak when you're deep in the ground.
		The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
		Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, to lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
		all these things in our memories home and they use them to help us to find them.
		Why, why would she so take this place on this strip?
		Just for me, take a free ride, take the place of my sea.
		It's all free.
		I will never send it for years.
		Worked so hard just to end my fears.
		Had to risk my life for my life.
		But by now, I know, I shall make the world.
		Premier Networks presents Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 14th, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Berkeley got me started.
		Now I can't stop.
		Bill Hamilton sent me some of these.
		Listen.
unidentified		These quotes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, before you get your nose buried too far in science, believe me, Germany is unable to wage war.
		That was former British Prime Minister David Lloyd George, August 1st, 1934.
		We don't like their sound.
		Group of guitars are on their way out.
		Deck of records rejecting the Beatles in 1962.
		Airplanes are interesting toys, but of no military value.
		Marshal Ferdinand Foche, the French military strategist figures and future World War I commander 1911.
		Or how about this?
		The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty, a fad.
		A president of the Michigan Savings Bank advising Horace Rackham, Henry Ford's lawyer, not to invest in the Ford Motor Company, 1903.
		Rackman ignored the advice, bought $5,000 worth of stock, sold it several years later at $12.5 million.
		Or this one, relevant.
		Radio has no future.
		Lord Kelvin, Scottish mathematician and physicist, former president of the Royal Society, 1897.
unidentified		Radio has no future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So before you get your nose too buried in science, remember some of these, and I have more, many more.
		In a moment, Dr. Philip Tiarno Jr.
		He's a well-known microbiologist with more than 30 years experience in the field of clinical and medical microbiology.
		He's got a lot to say about BT bioterrorism and germs in general.
		Right up.
unidentified		Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell And now comes Dr. Philip M. Tierno, who is a well-known microbiologist with, I guess, more than 30 years of experience in the field of clinical and medical microbiology.
		He is director of the Clinical Microbiology and Diagnostic Immunology at Tish Hospital, New York University Medical Center, Haumai, as well as Mount Sinai Medical Center, and is a part-time associate professor, departments of microbiology and pathology at the New York University School of Medicine.
		He also lectures at both NYU School of Dentistry and the Sunny, that's S-U-N-Y School of Optometry in New York City as a member of numerous respected scientific societies.
		Did his graduate studies at the New York University where he was awarded an M.S. degree in 1974, his Ph.D. following in 1977.
		Dr. Tierno acts as a consultant to the Office of Attorney General of New York State, Department of Health of the City of New York, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland, and the College of American Pathologists.
		Dr. Tierno is a member of the New York City Mayor's Task Force on Bioterrorism.
		Dr. Tierno has been recognized extensively for his numerous contributions to the medical scientific community.
		In 86, he was bestowed the honor of Knighthood.
		So he's really Sir Philip Tierno.
		Sir Tierno, huh?
		Wow, that's something knighthood.
		Absolutely.
		And then there's so much more here, but let us begin with.
		Is it Sir Tierno then?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Not really.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		That's an honorary knighthood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Still a knighthood, though.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		For contributions in science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My, my, my.
		What an extensive background you've got.
		And what an interesting job it must be at the moment to be advising in New York on bioterrorism.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Actually, it's a fascinating field and one that is opening up all sorts of doors to interesting avenues of exploration.
		And one of the reasons why I wrote my book, The Secret Life of Germs, is to express my profound love for this field so that individuals, the lay public, can get some insight as to what microbiology is.
		Many of them have very little awareness of the dynamics of that field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you were to discover a particularly horrible new germ, some complex, at the beginning, certainly indecipherable something or another, you would probably privately describe it as beautiful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know whether I would describe it as beautiful.
		Well, I would say that this is another example of a germ probably jumping species.
		Most of the new germs that we've seen, like the Ebola virus, the Marburg virus, and even the West Nile organism, either jump species in that their original species that they infect was an animal of some sort, or they tend to move in geographic areas, as is the case of the West Nile.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the very inability to explain what it is at the time and see what it does is sort of a beautiful process to watch.
		I mean, they are very complex and I would imagine represent an immediate and great challenge for you.
		So beautiful in that sense.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Just as has occurred with the HIV virus, before we knew what it was, the chase, so to speak, was extraordinary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		And so too for the Legionnaire's disease until we found the culprit.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		And the same is so for a wide variety of other organisms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as a general question, I would ask you, are we, would you say it's fair to say we are seeing in the last decade or two an increase in emerging diseases and new things, or at least new things to us, that suddenly all of a sudden take off?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they've always been there, but for something keys them and suddenly they're on the go.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		No question about that.
		Whether it's something as simple as certain types of cold viruses expressing themselves better or easier in the population so that a larger segment of the population comes down with them, or whether it's like a whole host of different organisms that are more virulent and are able to infect us at a better rate.
		Or simply like Lyme disease, we are interfacing in areas that we probably, because of our expansion, shouldn't be.
		And we're interfacing with the forested areas and we're seeing a greater incidence of Lyme disease because we are on the turf of various animal cycles, animal tick cycles.
		And so we put ourselves in the middle of that and wind up with Lyme disease.
		And there's many other examples.
		The Ebola virus is another one.
		Because of deforestation in areas in Africa and because we're moving populations from cities to the suburbs and encroaching on forested space where man has never been before, we're interfacing them with strange diseases.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ebola has been very interesting because it has struck in Africa and in a relatively isolated way.
		Ebola seems to strike so hard, too hard, that it burns itself out fairly rapidly.
		But an analogy for me is I live out here in the desert, a doctor, and in many areas you have just a little bit of brush and then some bare land and then some more desert brush and bare land, more desert brush, That kind of area.
		And it's kind of like Ebola.
		In other words, one of those bushes could go very quickly and then just burn right out, and there'd be enough space so that it wouldn't catch to the next piece of brush.
		But then there's other parts of the desert, Doctor, where if one catches and the conditions are just right and the wind is right, it's the fastest, most fierce fire you've ever seen in your whole life, and it could conceivably consume vast amounts, you know, areas very, very, very quickly.
		Does Ebola have that potential?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, every organism, if it's found in the wrong place at the right time, has the potential to cause a scourge for a particular point in time that may be very detrimental to the human species.
		Ebola virus strains vary.
		Some of them are very aggressive and result in 90% death rate.
		Others are less aggressive and result in maybe a 40 or a 50% death rate.
		The idea here is that the human host is not the designated host for that particular virus.
		No organism, no germ, would want to kill off the species it infects because it too will be killed.
		A successful parasite likes to cause an infection that's sort of low-level so that it's always there and it can use that species to propagate itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any bullet kills its own victims.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		So eventually, man will acclimate sufficiently to that virus to allow infection without actually succumbing to the infection.
		Much the same is so for the HIV virus.
		If the chimpanzees have an HIV virus, something similar, it's called a simian virus, simian in a deficiency virus, that does not kill them.
		In fact, almost all of them have it.
		And as such, that virus is said to be a successful parasite.
		Whereas the HIV virus in man is not very successful because it was killing off most of the people it infected.
		But over time, even HIV will not be a killer of man if we survive the interlude.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you recall the Ruston, Virginia situation?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I remember watching 60 Minutes, and about the most chilling thing I ever saw in my whole life was the end of their report where they had somebody like yourself who said, you know, it's a funny thing.
		If there had been just the tiniest, teeny, tiniest switch that had been thrown in another direction, a genetic switch, we'd have had it airborne and, well, I don't know.
		You tell me what would have happened.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, you can have a mode of transmission change that could be detrimental for any organism, not just Ebola.
		For example, an HIV.
		Imagine if it were to be transmitted, and currently it's transmitted by blood and by secretions.
		Imagine if it were transmitted respiratorily.
		If people talk and their droplets, and it would spread like wildfire within the population before the population has time to acclimate to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is possible?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're saying it's possible.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		The HIV, you know, anything is possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		HIV mutates constantly, does it not?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		It's even more mutatable and changeable than the influenza A virus.
		And influenza A, as you know, and B virus, we get different vaccines for it every year.
		That's how rapidly it changes its base.
		We call that changing the antigenic composition.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, some years they even miss it.
		It modifies itself.
		Everybody takes shots and it doesn't work.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		So much the same is so for a whole host of viruses.
		Yes, you get a change in the way it's transmitted.
		And germs are transmitted in four general ways.
		One is by contact, person to person.
		And in fact, there's an interesting statistic that goes with that.
		80% of all infectious disease is transmitted by contact, by touch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		80%.
		So that's the primary way germs are spread.
		Secondly, you can get something called a common vehicle spread.
		In that, let's say you get a foodstuff that is replete with some salmonella, and you ingest that at a picnic or at a fair, and you come down with gastroenteritis.
		That's another way germs are spread.
		Of course, in the air, like tuberculosis, is a third way.
		And fourthly, by the wing, I call it a leg method.
		That is, mosquitoes and flies can provide germs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like West Nile virus, right?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, how did West Nile virus get here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any idea?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a very good point.
		I have my own idea, and in the book I go into it in detail.
		In fact, it's a speculation, but it is a possibility the way I speculate.
		And I believe it got here most probably on a plane as a rider, just as passengers are riding the plane, probably in the luggage hold or perhaps on a passenger's sweater or hair.
		As the mosquito took its ride after the landing, let's say at Kennedy, it maybe bit a few of the passengers and then went to some swampy area as we would find around the Kennedy Airport.
		Actually, you'd even find it around LaGuardia.
		And from there on, it went through its cycle, biting some birds and then probably passing the virus in that way.
		Other mosquitoes picked up the virus and propagated it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have planes crisscrossing every landmass and ocean in the world in mass quantities today as compared to yesteryear.
		And so that's going on constantly.
		Is that level to bring us more little goodies like this?
unidentified		I would say absolutely.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		It's an obvious thing that a disease, let's say, that is infecting a rural African city or some little country in Asia or even South America, an individual from that country can make a trip to New York or to London or to some other major city.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there it is.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		And there you go.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		You have it introduced.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, hold it right there.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		My guest is an expert in these matters, advises New York on these matters and bioterrorism.
		Should be an interesting evening, I would say.
		Because these, as the Chinese have said, actually are very interesting times.
		They are here now.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		This is Premier Networks.
		That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
		The End
		Through the night through the night, Love you.
		the night in the desert, shooting stars across the sky.
		This magical journey will take us on a ride filled with the longing, searching for the truth.
		Will we make it to tomorrow with the sun shine on you?
		Midnight in the desert, and we're listening.
		There's none of you.
		Now we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Gierno acts as a consultant to the Office of Attorney General of New York State Department of Health, City of New York National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's a member of the New York City Mayor's Task Force on Bioterrorism.
unidentified		and he'll be right back.
		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 14th, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you're any kind of regular listener to the show, you know every now and then something gets in my craw and I can't let it loose, and I want to ask Dr. Tierno about this.
		It's an article that appeared in The Observer, London, and the headline is, is human evolution finally over?
		And here's my application with Dr. Tierno.
		We're using antibiotics at an unheard of rate.
		We are conquering disease.
		We are learning all kinds of things.
		And this professor in London is saying that basically evolution in the West basically has come to a standstill because the process of natural selection has been perverted and continues to be perverted.
		A stark controversial view of a group of biologists who believe that a Western lifestyle now protects humanity from the forces that used to shape Homo sapiens, obviously not totally, but sufficiently that they think the process of evolution may have been perverted.
		It's an interesting theory.
		What do you think of that, Doctor?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would say a better word would be diverted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, diverted.
unidentified		Perverted.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		It's kind of true about evolution and selection of organisms.
		If you leave everything to chance, there would be a certain evolving going on until the species either burns itself out or evolves into something else.
		However, because man has a gift that no other living creature has, and that is the brain, man is able to interject himself in places that no other species has found itself in a position to do.
		Today, actually, you know, we talk about the new age and the new millennium.
		We're finally uncovering the deepest biochemical and genetic workings of germs.
		In so doing, we're gaining the capacity to use the knowledge of this, these breakthroughs, for the benefit of mankind.
		In fact, helping mankind evolve in a specific way using these smallest of creatures.
		And one day, they may allow us, these little creatures, gaining insight into their genetics, just as we're gaining insight into human genome, we can use these organisms to help us address the most pressing human problems of disease, hunger, and even pollution that we face that could cause our demise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, we could become the engineers of our own evolutionary.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And that's the way we're exploring a gargantuan potential of germs.
		And that may sound ridiculous, but it is in fact true.
		We can harness their power for the good of mankind.
		And isn't it strange right now that the future of nature's greatest creature, man, depends upon an intimate cooperation with nature's least, the germ?
		nobody gives troops a second thought when they could be well they're harnessing their If we look at Earth as being 4.5 billion years old, germs have originated in the very beginning, around 4 billion years ago.
		We have, in fact, indirect evidence of their existence, the first prototypical cells being around 3.8 to 4 billion years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then in some sense, scientifically, we owe our existence to them.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		But we have actual fossilized bacterial cells in an Australian rock about 3.5 billion years old.
		And that's hard evidence.
		The first prototypical type cells were cyanobacteria that still exist to this day.
		And everything has evolved from them, in a sense.
		And if you look at another fact, and that's why I say man, we're learning so much about microorganisms that we thought had nothing to do with the evolution of man and realizing that we can use them as instruments of man's evolution.
		So I think it's quite amazing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, may I take a sidestep for a second?
		I would imagine you'd be in some way involved in this, or at least in the information flow regarding this.
		But with regard to the anthrax attack that was made, there was a very great deal in the press about doing the genetic research on the anthrax to trace its likely origin.
		And I was sort of waiting and waiting and waiting to hear the results of that research, and I still have not heard.
		Have you?
		Have you?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can only talk about what is in public information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you know more than you can say.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		That's another way of looking at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thank you.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		I will tell you that a lot of that has been done.
		See, there were two avenues of exploration.
		The anthrax bacterium has a chromosome, just like we have chromosomes inside the nucleus of our cells.
		Well, bacteria don't have nuclei, but they do have a chromosome, chromosomes, dependent upon the organism.
		And that was probed.
		Just like we unfolded the genome of man, we unfolded the genome of anthrax.
		And it was thought that we would be able to look at various segments to see what might be in common with the organisms that kill those people, with the inhalation anthrax cases, and the known strains.
		Well, unfortunately, that did not yield very much since most of the virulent strains were what we call the Ames strain, which was found in Ames, Iowa, in some cattle, and that's where it got its name from.
		But we then looked at something very important.
		Bacteria carry little segments of DNA, circular DNA, called plasmids.
		These are separate from the chromosomes.
		This was worked out in Arizona, actually, at the laboratories, the anthrax laboratories in Arizona.
		And they started to break down the genetic makeup of these plasmids.
		There are two plasmids in an anthrax bacillus.
		One carries the genes for the toxins, and there are three toxins, protective antigen, lethal factor, and edema factor.
		And another plasmid, a separate plasma, carries the genes for the capsule.
		By looking at these genes, by looking at the segments, the sequence of the DNA, investigators were able to make an identity.
		And that's all I will say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, we are at hand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, Doctor, what you cannot say right now is what you know, and what you know is the specific identity of this strain.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		I don't have that information in my hands, but I know that that was done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		Okay, good enough.
		Do you believe the public will be made aware of this at some point?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		I think it's a matter of FBI domain here.
		They want sort of a heads up.
		Why should anybody reveal all of their hand if they're playing a card game?
		You don't just put your hand for everybody to see so that they have an advantage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As strains of anthrax go, how pure and we've heard a million different things about this.
		How pure and how deadly and how refined was this particular anthrax?
		Was it to the category to be called weaponized?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		The answer to that is yes and no.
		There were two, what should I say, letters or a series of letters that were submitted.
		The first contained a less pure spore.
		In fact, there was some brown discoloration, which shows that whoever did it sort of did it in a more crude manner.
		The second letters, the Dashel letters, were weapons grade.
		They were extraordinarily good, extraordinarily pure, extraordinary in every way.
		And in fact, I have a second book on bioterrorism.
		I go into it in detail about what a weapons grade is.
		It's called Protect Yourself Against Bioterrorism.
		It's a paperback.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it almost seemed, Doctor, as though it would have to be that strong to have been infecting people from the casual, you know, sort of in the letter processing area, cross-contaminating and that sort of thing, because there would have been very little cross-contamination, and yet it certainly did get people, didn't it?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it did.
		That's because the spore size was extremely small, and the spores themselves lost electrostatic ability to adhere to one another.
		In the ground, for example, when cattle graze, you might find spores of anthrax naturally along the old cattle trails in this country and throughout the world, in fact, can be found.
		But cattle don't ordinarily come down with, it's pretty difficult for them to come down with anthrax because the spores in nature clump together.
		And that's some sort of protection that species have.
		And of course, they do cut themselves on twigs and branches, and they come down with a cutaneous form that could be pretty fatal to the herd.
		But in general, it's very difficult to aerosolize.
		But the weapon grade spores of the second group of letters was really extraordinary in that it was a whitish powder, apparently, not as brown as the first batch.
		And as such, this was what I would call weapons grade.
		The only thing the delivery system did not make it a weapon.
		However, we learned a lot from that situation because no one thought that anthrax could be delivered so well by letter.
		But then again, most people had no clue what's going on in the post office with regard to those sorting machines.
		Looking at that, it amazed me how rapidly that mail is handled.
		And they even use suction devices and blowers and all sorts of things that would make it more hazardous handling mail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What have we done since all of this has happened?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if a weapons grade letter of the type sent we just talked about were to be sent again today, what would happen?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you the truth.
		We are lucky in a sense that we were exposed to this small series of events.
		Of course, there was fatalities involved, and that's unfortunate.
		But the learning experience has been traumatic.
		It's been unprecedented.
		And because of that, I think we are better prepared today than we have ever been prepared before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What I'm asking is the sorting machines, the whole process the mail system uses, has that been modified so that in all likelihood it wouldn't occur again?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		To a great degree that it has.
		To other degrees, there are sanitizing methods that are used on the mail prior to getting to that step.
		There's a whole host of things that were done in response, not only in the mail room, but throughout the country and throughout institutions.
		And we have sort of been given a practice run, and we responded to it in an exemplary way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If a terrorist doctor were to obtain a large amount of this weaponized anthrax and get it to the air, as in a small plane or in some dispersal system, God knows what, what's the potential?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is a significant potential.
		In fact, crop dust, if it were retrofitted, and that's not easy to do, that could be extraordinarily detrimental to whomever is in the way of those spores.
		In fact, in chapter 12 of my book, I talk about Terror by Night, which describes an individual leaving from a hangar in Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in Rhinebeck, New York.
		In fact, about 100 miles from the city up the Hudson.
		And I describe this disgruntled former Army employee as having a bone to pick with the Army, and he's going to make his mark.
		And most bioterrorists want to make a statement.
		They don't have the wherewithal to make a grand statement except to resort to bio-terror weapons as anthrax.
		He had access in my little scenario here to anthrax.
		So he cooked up a batch of spores, put it in his crop duster, which, by the way, he got access to by looking for a job during the preceding year, the year before he decided to do this episode, as a crop duster.
		And he would get part-time work, so he cut the suspicions of anybody at The time.
		And this book, by the way, was written about three years ago.
		It was three years in the making, well before the bioterror events that took place in September.
		And he decides to take his chance on New Year's Eve, get into the plane.
		He's got access because he's a working member of Crop Dusting Corporation upstate.
		And he decides to fly at night, generally by wind direction, using, what you said, a bunch of spores in a plane, releasing it.
		It could be monumentally disastrous.
		As you saw, what happens with a few letters?
		Anyway, he does this during the night because we have what's called inversions of temperature, inversions of the atmosphere where you have sort of everything closer to the ground so that any current of air would follow the path that is predicted.
		Let's do this go to the weather maps and understand where he should drop that load and at what time he should drop it to be just in time for the revelers during Niaziv celebration.
		And in fact, my scenario was written for the new millennium, the year 2000 celebration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In your scenario, how many people might be affected?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Literally everyone that was in that New York city Times Square environments and everyone down the path that would have gone outside even to walk their dog as the flow of spores came towards the city carried by the jet stream.
		It would have been catastrophic.
		Hundreds of thousands, if not a million, individuals at least would have been affected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you weren't really surprised when the FAA grounded all crop dusters?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, absolutely not.
		The thing is, it's very difficult to retrofit.
		I took liberties in the book, but it's very difficult to retrofit a crop duster to be able to dispense spores of anthrax.
		So that's something we could rest easy on, although it is possible.
		And it would have to be a country that sponsors that kind of an event.
		I don't believe it's going to be sponsored by an individual terrorist or a group of terrorists or terrorist cells.
		They would not have the capacity to do that.
		They may try.
		And fortunately for us, one of our greatest weapons, 300 million pair of eyes and 300 million pair of ears.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Doctor, the President recently referred to an axis of evil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be three countries with that capability, I presume.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		That and other things like dirty bombs, nuclear weapons.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Of course, bioterrorist weapons is very important consideration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In your mind, with regard to a terrorist, for example, with the help of some nation, would a biological weapon be more effective than a nuclear, say a dirty nuclear weapon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard they wouldn't be as effective as we have previously thought.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's my feeling.
		And I mentioned that in the little soft-covered book on bioterrorism.
		I go through a litany of the 18 agents that are on the Department of Defense list of bioterroristic weapons.
		The one I fear most is not smallpox, is anthrax.
		Just as a scenario we discussed, anthrax can be a pretty wicked weapon, and it's my number one on the hit list of weapons to be used against humanity by a terrorist.
		The one I fear the most.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, hold it right there.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		My guest is Dr. Tierno.
		He has a book.
		We'll tell you all about that book.
		But as I've mentioned to you, he acts as consultant to the Office of Attorney General of New York State Department of Health of New York City, the NIH, Bethesda, College of American Pathologists.
		Dr. Tierno is a member of New York City Mayor's Task Force on Bioterrorism.
		From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
		more somewhere in time coming up so Make the long way home.
		I'm gonna open up your gate and baby.
		Tell you about Phaedra And how she gave me life And how she made it in Some velvet mornin'when I was trained Flowers growing on a hill
		Dragonflies and daffodils Learn from us very much Look at us but do not tell Phaedra is my name Some velvet mornin'when I was trained And when
		I'm straight I'm gonna open up your gate And make sure maybe tell you about Pedra and how she keep me live And how she made You are listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 14th, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Philip M. Tierno Jr., among other things, since 1977, for example, has been recognized as a biography in consecutive editions to date of Who's Who for his work in the field of microbiology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He'll be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 14, 2002.
		Coast to Coast AM from February 14, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, Dr. Philip M. Tierno Jr., Doctor, a straight-out question for you.
		Do you have the knowledge necessary that if you were a bad man, you could concoct what would virtually be weaponized grade anthrax?
		Could you do that?
		Is that within your scientific knowledge to do that?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		It's a possibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a possibility.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		At least I would be able to concoct spores that would be pretty good.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Not ideal, but pretty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, how many people do you suppose there are in America with the knowledge that you have?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		I would say that the members of the American Society of Microbiology, of which I'm one, any one of the members have access to microorganisms, and that would be in a neighborhood of maybe 30,000 people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to read you a very quick story and get your reaction.
		This is breaking news.
		It's on my website right now.
		It's dated February 13th, 2002.
		Of course, from British News, but you'll find it as the first item under What's New Right Now.
		Detectives were last night trying to unravel the circumstances in which a leading university research scientist was found dead at his blood-spattered and apparently ransacked home.
		The body of Ian Langford 40, who was a senior fellow at the University of East Anglia Center for Social and Economic Research on Global Environment, was discovered Monday night by police and ambulancemen.
		The body naked from the waist down, partly wedged under a chair.
		It is understood the doors to the terrorist house were locked.
		A post-mortem examination failed to establish how Dr. Langford, who lived alone in the house in Norwich, died.
		Dr. Langford began working at the university in 1993 after gaining a Ph.D. in childhood leukemia and infection following a first-class honors degree in environmental sciences work most recently as a senior researcher assessing risk to the environment.
		Now, Dr. Tierno, my question for you is as follows.
		In your field, you cannot help but be aware that recently there have been a lot of very, very suspicious deaths of people in your field, and a very unusual, disturbing number of them.
		I've been reading them in the news.
		I'm supposing you've heard about it.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I have heard about it.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly it is alarming when you see an unusual number of scientists die strangely, but yet there's no hard evidence that they have died because of involvement in some underhanded operation of some sort or because they were not cooperative with, let's say, some terrorists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but it's a scenario one can certainly imagine.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and it certainly crosses my mind.
		I'm extra careful that anybody can basically walk into my office.
		They just have to go through my secretary.
		And if they check her out when she goes to lunch and takes a break, they could possibly get me there alone, that's for sure.
		Even though we do have security, there's been a recent survey showing how security lapses missed several individuals who came in with backpacks.
		So I'm aware of all of that, and I'm extra cautious.
		But I mean, I can't do any more than that.
		I will not allow any terrorist to arouse my fear.
		And that is the biggest weapon that they have, regardless of all of these agents and their use, and regardless of the amount of death and disease that they can cause, the greatest weapon that they have is fear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, indeed, both for somebody like yourself and for the country as a whole.
		Doctor, let me jump very quickly to another question that I've been meaning to ask somebody like yourself.
		In San Francisco, now several years ago, in a quest to try and help an AIDS patient, and it was certainly a valiant attempt to help this patient, my recollection is that some scientists,
		people in your field, completely destroyed what was left of the immune system of some poor man who had AIDS and inserted in his system that immune system of a simian in the hopes of obviously having it take and beat what he was fighting.
		Now, I remember the story at the time and I remember reading about it, and I remember reading that scientists at the time admitted that there was a certain global risk to what they were doing.
		We were talking about earlier about diseases and germs, and when you take a simian immune system and you put it in a human being, it seems to me as a layman that there's some potential risk for All of us.
		And it was announced more or less after the fact, the general population, that this had been done.
		And I remember objecting heavily to that at the time, thinking, my God, you know, if something had jumped or developed and spread, it would have been a pretty big oops.
		And I wonder if you have any comments on this line of research.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I personally would be against such a thing.
		No question that we are in enough trouble and difficulty with antibiotic resistance and pathogens becoming so-called supergerms.
		We don't need any help from scientists to create a condition in a human which allows germs to come through that individual and then infect the general population as might occur.
		And I can understand the idea behind it.
		We're trying to take the simian cells, which are refractory to the HIV.
		In other words, the HIV would not kill a monkey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Putting that in a human, making those cells very much like a monkey cell, would protect the human against the HIV.
		I mean, I can understand that.
		I'm not familiar with the case.
		But on the other side of that coin, when you're fooling with Mother Nature to that degree and you don't know all of the consequences, the inherent dangers are extraordinary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought so.
		I would be against it.
		So then, there must be some large ethical debate that rages in circles like your own about the advocacy of doing something of this sort and whether you inform the general public that you're going to try this.
		I don't know who decides, but I mean, it's like they told us about it afterwards.
		And I thought, well, gee, thanks.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, review boards in institutions really make the decisions as to what kind of research will be allowed and what kind won't be allowed.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		And I'm very surprised that an institutional review board allowed that kind of experimentation to occur, unless it was guised in some way that duped these people into believing that it was a benign type extraordinary measure to be taken because the person was going to die anyway, so maybe they gave permission under those circumstances in hopes of some sort of breakthrough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course.
		Sure.
		I understand.
		I thought at the time, hmm, gee.
		Anyway, I want to talk, I do want to back away from all of this a little bit and just talk about disease in general.
		I know that you recently did an experiment there in, I guess, New York with a reporter.
		What was it all about?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the reporters came to me with a question related to how risky is living in the environment, the New York City environment.
		And the idea here would be to take specimens from various areas within New York City.
		Yes, the so-called hotspots of New York City to get a better understanding as to what dangers might be lurking there.
		In fact, the reporter, she was then of the New York Observer, now she's with the New York Times, came to me and I taught her how to collect samples from about 34 germ hotspots in New York, which range, by the way, from the back seat of a cab, a taxi cab, to an engagement ring counter at Tiffany's, and restrooms at both Waldof Astoria Hotel as well as the subway system.
		And she taught fellow reporters what I taught her, and we did this throughout New York City in a fairly rapid time frame.
		They brought the cultures to me, and I tested these to see what we grew.
		And just to give you some idea, for example, a sample taken at a taxicab seat from a taxicab seat, it contained what we call Streptococcus viridans, which is a common mouth bacteria, probably expelled by a cough.
		I found an intrabactus species, which is an organism, a gram-negative bacterium, which is usually found in the feces.
		A Staph aureus, which is usually said shed from the skin.
		A movie Tenocyte, for example, had Staph aureus, as well as a Group B strep, which is usually found in vaginal fluids.
		And an enterococcus, which is usually found in the feces.
		Again, the idea here is probably a woman wearing shorts or a short skirt probably deposited these germs on the seat.
		And in that regard, you can sort of tell a lot about the germs that are present in a particular site.
		The bottom line is we run into all sorts of germs such as these every day of our lives.
		Some of them, like Staph aureus, which is shed from the skin, or even the intestines that get passed in feces, are part of the body's normal flora or normal complement of germs that are necessary for our health.
		And I can explain that at a later point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, would the next person, or the next 50 people who sat in that taxi, be at risk, or somebody with a compromised immune system sat there, would they be at risk?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, only in as much as you'll pick up that strain.
		You may have one of those strains, actually one of the isolates of Staphortius, on your own skin, which is harmless to you because you've acclimated to it.
		You'll pick this strain up, which might not be as harmless.
		And what kind of illnesses?
		Probably very low-level illnesses would be involved.
		Remember, man is very resilient.
		Man is able to fight off most challenges to his immune system.
		And in fact, I don't want to be disgusting, but the average individual could spoon eat human feces without coming down with any deleterious effect.
		Except, of course, if you have pathogens.
		Let's say, for example, you didn't.
		And I say that because human feces contain probably the largest repository of germs known to man and is probably involved in most infections of man.
		There are one times ten to the twelve bacteria per gram of feces.
		That's one with 12 zeros after it per gram.
		In fact, there are more germs in any individual's intestinal tract than there were men who have lived on the face of the earth since the beginning of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a cheery thought.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and now knowing that, you can actually eat that and your body would fight it.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Because we do have a normal immune system, and part of that immune system comes from the germs that we harbor in and on our body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll take your word for it.
		You did a 20-20 segment on money.
		Now, money, money, money, money, money.
		We all handle money.
		And what do you know about money?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Actually, the segment was called Dirty Money.
		And it's interesting in that the concept here was to take paper money from various places throughout actually the country.
		We did an East Coast and a West Coast survey of dirty money.
		Considering that, oh, let's say individuals, let's take a Frankfurter man, a so-called hot dog vendor in New York City.
		Let's say he comes into work in the morning, he's got a little cold, and colds happen in the summer too.
		Let's say it's a summer day, very hot and humid, and he retrieves his cart, which sat idly, let's say, overnight.
		Ample time for germs to flourish, by the way, on food particles and drippings that might have been left from the day before.
		As the vendor prepares his wagon for the day, of course he heats up his water so he can put his hot dogs into the hot water tank.
		Mind you, he's handling these now with a cold.
		He coughs into his hands, he blows his dripping nose, let's say, with a tissue.
		And without washing his hands, because not every one of these vendors is hygienic, he arranges his buns, let's say, and fills up the tubs of relish, sauerkraut, or whatever other condiments he has, and therefore transfers the viruses to all of these things.
		Next, let's say he'll load some canned soda drinks into his ice chest.
		We're getting ready to sell to consumers.
		And let's say some of the moisture drips on the cart, allowing moisture.
		By the way, germs need moisture to propagate.
		And finally, let's say he starts up his money count with his wet hands, interfacing all of those bills with his germs.
		And then he heads to a busy street corner somewhere in the city.
		And one of the other things, by the way, one of the challenges of all of these street vendors, especially in New York City, is that every few hours they have to visit a restroom.
		Now, some vendors employ what's called a floating substitute.
		You might see these people.
		They come around to relieve an individual so that he could go to bathroom duties periodically.
		Or he may relieve himself in his own car.
		Any of them have the machine, their vending card attached to a car, and they go there and relieve themselves in a container of some sort.
		This may be more than I wanted to know about hot dog vendors, but also I'm just trying to create a scenario and what happens with one aspect of money.
		And here, as the vendor sells his food and drink, let's say to customers, his splatted condiments and melting ice water and meat drippings provide food and drink for the germs.
		And they eventually inevitably find their way to both customers' food and onto the fibers of paper money.
		And actually, they're exchanged in various transactions.
		When you go to buy a hot dog, you hand money to the vendor and he gives you a change.
		And you're touching that money and you're touching the change.
		And then you touch your hot dog and you eat.
		Well, basically, what we found was various types of microorganisms indigenous to the feces, respiratory tract, and skin, which is not unusual and which was anticipated.
		We just wanted to prove it, showing that you can have an effective transfer of germs via paper money.
		So the bottom line here is not that you're going to become deathly sick, but who needs an unnecessary bout of diarrhea or an unnecessary cold or a stomach flu?
		Nobody really needs that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nobody.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		You need to wash your hands prior to eating or drinking anything.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		That would be the bottom line of that scenario.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you're in the middle of the streets of New York City, that's not always an immediately available option.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, just as a matter of simple curiosity, having researched all of this as thoroughly as you obviously have, and being somebody from that part of the world, I am curious, Doctor, in New York, do you buy hot dogs?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		On occasion, I buy a hot dog, and prior to eating them, I would use a soapless hand cleaner.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		It's an alcohol-based product.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I presume you'd recommend that for everybody.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Doctor, hold it right there.
		We're at the bottom of the hour, and we'll be right back.
unidentified		I see the lightning.
		Mmm.
		I see the town.
		Yummy, the trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
		More Somewhere in Time coming up.
		We'll be right back.
		I remember, don't worry.
		How could I never forget?
		It's the first time.
		The last time we ever met.
		But I know the reason why you keep your silence so far.
		The beautiful me.
		The hurt doesn't show.
		But the pain still grows.
		So stranger to you and me.
		But I knew it would come any other night.
		Oh Lord.
		But I knew it was longer for all my life.
		Oh Lord.
		I knew it was longer for all my life.
		Oh Lord.
		Oh Lord.
		I knew it was longer for all my life.
		Network presents Heartbell somewhere in time tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 14th, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Philip M. Tierno Jr. is my guest.
		His book, by the way, his book is Protect Yourself Against Bioterrorism.
		That's the name of it.
		Protect yourself against bioterrorism.
		You might want to check it out.
		My website has a link.
		You can go to Amazon.com and places like that and buy it.
		We'll find out more about that as the morning goes on.
		Stay right there.
unidentified		Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Money, money, money, money.
		Let's talk a little bit more about money in a slightly different vein.
		If money is such a good vector, then, Doctor, as a matter of curiosity, what would money be like as a vector mechanism for some sort of terrorist?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		It would probably be very inefficient because most weapons that are going to be used by a terrorist would probably be aerosolly dispersed.
		In other words, like the anthrax hit the air and it was inhaled.
		That seems to be the best way outside of food and water intrusions, which is not as good a means of spreading germs as is aerosol.
		You aerosolize it, you can spread it to large numbers of people.
		And that's the route that most terrorists would take.
		If I might, Oort, you mentioned my book, Protect Yourself Against Bioterrorism.
		But that may confuse the listeners because there is another book, my first book, The Secret Life of Germs, which is a hard-covered book.
		The bioterrorism book is a softcover that deals just with bioterrorism, but the secret life of germs deals with germs in general and deals with all the concepts we're talking about now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Secret Life of Germs, Observations and Lessons from a Microbe Hunter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that correct?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard a lot lately about prions.
		Preons, prions, prions.
		Some sort of virus-like protein.
		You know, I know it has a lot to do with mad cow disease or something, but can you explain so the average person might be able to understand what a prion is?
unidentified		Okay.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		They used to be referred to as what's called a slow virus, but they're really not viruses at all.
		They're bits of protein material.
		We sometimes refer to them as a sub-viral particle.
		What happens is that prions actually exist as normal components of the human body.
		But in a prion disease, the prions are folded in an unusual way that makes them disease triggers.
		In human prion disease, for example, we know that genetics, genetic susceptibility also plays a role.
		But about 40% of the British population have an abnormality in their prion gene that makes them very susceptible to this folding that might occur if they ingest a prion from mad cow disease.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow, I didn't know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that is specific to the British population?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know if it's only them, but primarily it's they who are being looked at.
		In fact, these patients possess a specific genotype called MM, as opposed to two other possible genotypes that occurs in Britain, and that's MV and VV.
		So since only 100 people in Great Britain became sick after ingesting materials from mad cows, so to speak, there is some other cofactor that is obviously involved.
		In fact, there are some researchers that are thinking that you need a bout of tonsillitis to facilitate the prions from getting in and causing problems, because tonsils are known reservoirs of prions.
		Prions and tonsils can migrate, of course, to lymph nodes adjacent to it.
		And that could explain why most of the victims have been relatively young, because younger people are more susceptible to repeated bouts of tonsillitis.
		Interestingly, the prion is unique, as you pointed out, from every known germ in its structure and effects on people.
		In fact, it's not a full cell, and therefore, unlike viruses, which are primitive as they are, they contain no nucleic acids of any kind and solely made up of proteins.
		It's interesting in that they're able to particularly attack the brain's axons and neurons, and they actually eat them to create sponge-like appearances.
		You might hear the term spongy-form encephalopathy.
		In fact, mad cow is called bovine spongy-form encephalopathy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it virtually turns your brain into a sponge.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		You lose ability to carry on, literally.
		In fact, British farmers back in 1986 named it mad cow disease when they reported their cows dancing.
		And they really weren't dancing.
		They were losing their balance and moving side to side.
		So the British farmers didn't know what the problem was.
		The bad thing here is, if you want to talk about prions, is they're very difficult to kill.
		In fact, they're very difficult.
		Well, you really need heavy incineration.
		Yes, that could do it.
		You can use pure lye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy, I was talking about the farmer going out into the field, piling the dead cows together and burning them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not necessarily a good idea.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, that's okay.
		You can incinerate them.
		You can use things like autoclaving, which is steam under pressure, like a pressure cooker.
unidentified		Sure.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		That can kill them or break them up.
		Interestingly, we first recognized the cases of prion disease in 1977 in New Guinea, in the New Guinea Highlands.
		But we coined the term kuru, K-U-R-U, as designating the disease.
		Research has linked it actually to funeral practices, which involve these natives, these New Guineans, eating the parts of the dead.
unidentified		Oh.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		In fact, as an act of mourning and like a final affirmation of kinship.
		And when the New Guineans stopped eating their dead, the disease stopped.
		They would eat, of course, as part of the dead, the brain.
		And that's cool.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then that goes back then to the practice that many said caused mad cow disease, which was feeding cows other cow or animal parts, yes?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Sheep brains.
		In fact, there is a disease similar to this encephalopathy in sheep.
		It's called scrapie.
		It gets its name because when sheep come down with this mad sheep disease, if you want to use the term loosely, they tend to get very itchy and they rub their back on trees and they scrape their back.
		And so that's why they coined the term scrapie for that.
		It's a very interesting disease.
		We used to refer to it, and it can occur one in a million cases, as CJD disease.
		You might have heard that disease.
		Kritzfeldt-Jakob disease.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have, yes.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		That's very similar to Kuru.
		And that's the naturally occurring prion disease that we've been used to, and that's a rare entity.
		But the new Kritzfeld-Jakob disease, or mad cow, it's actually called V, V for variant Kritzval-Jakob, in that Kritzval-Jakob used to be what I referred to earlier as a slow viral disease, which took maybe 20 years, 30 years to develop, to reach fruition.
		Whereas the new variant Kritzval-Jakob, or what we commonly refer to as med cow, only takes a few months or years to fully develop.
		And once it does, the patient invariably dies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's almost 100% fatal at that point.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		At that point.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		When they express symptoms, it's fatal, unfortunately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Too late when you get to symptoms.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I recently heard that there was some kind of something that was close to Marburg that they found all along the border of Afghanistan.
		And it was interesting timing and an interesting place for that to be showing up.
		Perhaps it's a normal place for it to be showing up.
		But I mean, here we've got these terrorists said to be in Afghanistan with lots of really good samples all around them.
		Any thoughts on that?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		They're actually, I think the disease you're referring to is CCHF.
		It's sometimes known as Crimean Congo fever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		It's actually a hemorrhagic fever.
		It's very closely related to the Ebola or Marburg family.
		And it is interesting in that this particular strain, unlike most other strains of hemorrhagic agents, are transmissible by contact and by ticks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, brother.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		It's one of the few hemorrhagic fevers that can be transmitted by ticks.
		So if one were to utilize this as a terroristic weapon, one might take ticks from a person who is suffering from this disease, place it in their scalp, and take a plane ride.
		And by contact, you can potentially unleash this particular Crimean Congo on a population such as ours where it does not exist and which probably would result in fatalities before we even identified.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was about to ask, Doctor, if we were attacked in the manner you just described, how long would it be before we realized we were under attack?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		It would be a considerable length of time.
		To give specifics, it would depend on the incubation period.
		For this particular disease, Crimean Congo, incubation could be anywhere up to three weeks.
		And by the time we notice people starting to bleed from orifices, Having high fever or what we call petychia, little black and blue marks all over their body.
		And most people might not think that's strange, you know, because people tend to have bloody noses and they may have other lesions that bleed, or they may keep it private, other orifices that might bleed for a while before they even go to their doctor.
		And many of their physicians might not even know the symptoms.
		And that's one of the good things that came out of bioterrorism.
		More people are into symptoms now, and they're better able to recognize this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it could be three weeks before.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		But it could be up to three weeks.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		The incubation period can vary from about five days or so to about 21 days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And by the time 21 days came along, if the infection were started in New York City or Los Angeles or a populated area, how many people would perhaps be infected?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		It would depend on the number of terrorists that would make this visit and would have this disease and how many contacts they make and how efficient their secretions are containing the virus.
		See, it does vary.
		And as the individuals who have this disease get ill themselves, they may be taken out of circulation by the illness.
		So it also varies with their stamina and ability to continue on as sick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm sure if they were the terrorists we'd become familiar with, they'd go till they dropped.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's for sure.
		If they go till they drop, then that might be evidence.
		But in general, I don't want to scare anyone, but in general, hemorrhagic fevers, even though they're horrific diseases, they're difficult to weaponize because there's no real carier state.
		And they can be contained if we knew that somebody had them by simple nursing techniques, barrier techniques, we call it, aseptic technique.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could somebody like yourself or in your field take something like hemorrhagic fever and toy with it a little bit and weaponize that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know it's a horrible question, but.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes, the answer to all those questions would be yes.
		And hopefully the integrity of the microbiologists are such that that would not be a likely scenario.
		I mean, someone would have to be mad to do that.
		And certainly we do have plenty of mad people going about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, mad is by perspective.
		And you're right.
		We have plenty of mad people by that definition in the world.
		And we have people that simply want us dead.
		They don't really want to change, have us change anything, or they're not making any specific demands.
		We all might have noticed since the World Trade Centers came down, the Pentagon, then the Anthrax, all the rest of it.
		No real demands, no real claim of responsibility.
		The conclusion there is they want us dead.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, if that's the case, then the kind of scenarios we're talking about right now, they make sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They may seem mad, but they would make sense, wouldn't they?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		yes uh...
		certainly com somebody intent on doing harm may cause The greatest agent of fear, I think, personally, is the anthrax.
		But outside of that, the other 18 agents, yes, they can cause death to a limited number of people.
		Just like in Israel, you can have Obama who is going to go and take out 10 people or 5 people.
		You can never prevent that completely.
		But I'm talking about the human race and the American in America.
		I don't think that a bioterrorist organization or even a country can take out a good segment of our population.
		We've just become too aware of circumstance and we have now risen to the occasion.
		And I think the three greatest abilities that we have at this point in time, after having experienced all these events, is the vigilance that we have, the education, we're becoming aware of symptoms, diagnosis, and even treatment of each agent, and the knowledge that we have, what is and is not possible, as well as how to limit attacks.
		That knowledge and those things are making it better for us to defend against bioterrorism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Our government has recently been taking the position that it informs us there is an imminent threat.
		In other words, they get wind of something or another.
		And there's an imminent threat, they will say, and they're now beginning to nail it down to this day or that day or within a couple of days of whatever date.
		And they're not getting specific beyond that.
		How do you feel about those kinds of warnings?
		If you were the one in possession of information that would perhaps generate such a warning, would you issue it or would you hesitate to?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		I think I would issue it because periodically we need to be, what should I say, reminded of our vigilance.
		I think we live in a very strange world and we live in a unique place in American history.
		I think if the population is forewarned, it is forearmed.
		And you need to heighten the guard at times when you get good information saying that there may be a bomb threat or there may be a person with a nuclear weapon or a dirty bomb, let's say, which is contaminated by nuclear waste.
		That person might be likely to express himself anywhere, not only in this country, but outside this country.
		So we must make everyone alert to that so that one anomaly that might occur where it results in one phone conversation with a police authority, that might mean the difference between life and death.
		So I think, yes, it is necessary to warn the public at the right time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, with regard to this anthrax thing, we did all sort of go through it because we had no idea of the extent of it.
		Doctor, if you were to guess, would you say that this was perpetrated by a foreign nation of some sort with regard to origin or the money or the power behind the action?
		Or would you say that's more likely homegrown?
		Just if you were to guess.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Okay, if I were to guess, how is it a guess?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		I would say this looks like it's an internal situation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Homegrown.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		It looks like it's coming from someone who had access to very, very good grade anthrax, very potent, very toxic, and someone who had excellent microbiological knowledge, therefore some scientific background.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Whether that person is foreign-born or a United States citizen remains to be determined.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you think homegrown.
		I appreciate your guest, Dr. Stan Mai.
		Stay right where you are.
		Got a good break coming up.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is Dr. Philip M. Giro Jr.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 14, 2002.
		Don't come easy.
		You know it don't come easy.
		Customs made use if you want to see the blues.
		And you know it don't come easy.
		You don't have to shout all these the vows.
		You can't even play them easy.
		But you have lost your mind.
		Whatever happened to our love.
		I wish I understood.
		It just evades.
		the lights, it's just the face of the face of us It's just the face of the face It's
		a very bad thing It's something that I've been trying to make it up I wish I understood What happened to my love?
		It used to be so I love me Somewhere in Time with Art Bell continues courtesy of Premier Networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Philip M. Tiarno Jr., one of our nation's leading microbiologists, is my guest tonight.
unidentified		Talking about the little things.
unidentified		You know, those little things that might get us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually get us all the time.
		We'll get back to it in a moment.
		Stay right there.
unidentified		Stay right there.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 14, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, Dr. Philip M. Tierno Jr., whose books are out there, one you might want to get right away, Protect Yourself Against Bioterrorism, or the hardback, The Secret Life of Germs, Observations and Lessons from a Microbe Hunter.
		And he even wrote one before that called Staying Healthy in a Risky Environment.
		Well, the environment certainly has become riskier since that book.
		Doctor, I'm going to ask you something kind of weird and strange, but it's another thing that I've been wanting to ask somebody of your stature about.
		I've been watching these interesting shows on TV that show these archaeologists going into various places and digging up dead folk, people who have died long, long ago, even mummified folk.
		And, you know, I just have this vision in my mind of some casket and opening it and hearing.
		You know, I mean, something from thousands of years ago that hasn't been around tickling us for thousands of years, suddenly coming loose from one of these damn expeditions.
		Is there anything to that?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you consider the fact that organisms, like I say, have been around for about four billion years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Man is the interloper who's appeared in an imaginary day, let's say, to depict the appearance of various species.
		We appeared a few minutes before midnight or a few seconds before midnight, depends on who you read.
		I don't think that's a likelihood.
		It's a possibility.
		There are many plagues and many organisms in the past that probably disappeared.
		At least the different strains may reappear, but it's unlikely that they would have survived that amount of time unless they were, let's say, in the amber of some fossil or how about frozen.
		We have evidence of frozen organisms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The reason I say that is because in parts of Alaska, I saw a program not long ago, they were actually intentionally going into tundra country, you know, frozen tundra country, and attempting to dig up victims of the 1918 flu Disaster.
		And, you know, I wondered about that at the time, which was really a good idea or not.
		I understand the theory, certainly, that you get your hand on a specific good sample of the virus and maybe you do some work trying to figure out how to prevent it, should it get loose again.
		So that's certainly the theory, but a little bit of danger there.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, to some degree, if you consider that we've isolated germs from the gut of a 40-million-year-old bee and from a 250-million-year-old piece of frozen brine, we isolate, yes, we've isolated germs.
		So what you're saying is possible.
		I don't think it's likely, but it is a possibility.
		It's something that can't be dismissed, so we should handle such carcasses very carefully.
		I don't believe they will pose any more any unreasonable danger, but we should be cautious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so there's always a possibility, though, that some little bug that was around thousands of years ago could, through some method, intentional method like this, become resurrected and look around and say, hey, look at this environment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gee, this is better than one I was around before.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's a possibility, but as I say, it's not likely that you're going to uncover such a germ.
		If you look at the cyanobacteria, which were around about 4 billion years ago, they've not changed very much.
		And in fact, germs have a very interesting role.
		We didn't touch on that, if I might.
		If there were no germs, for example, that existed, there'd be no food, there'd be no oxygen, there'd be no nitrates for plants to grow, there'd be no recycling of life.
		There'd be no life, in fact.
		The role of germs is, of course, the foundation of the food chain.
		As you know, all the seas have microorganisms of various types that provide foodstuff for other organisms to eat.
		They also supply, unknown to most people, more than 90% of the oxygen on Earth are provided by germs, not by plants.
		Less than 10% of the oxygen is provided by green plants.
		And in fact, one of the reasons why we're afraid that the ozone layer might be broken down by various use of hydrocarbons, fossil fuels, and chlorocarbons, we're afraid that that would allow ultraviolet radiation to kill the cyanobacteria that reside in the water and provide the bulk of the oxygen and thereby suffocate humanity as well as other oxygen-requiring species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I never looked at it that way at all because I did not know that germs provide, you said 90% of the world's oxygen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we should worry more about that than we should the rainforests?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		But we should worry about both.
		Green plants, for example, can only exist if there were germs.
		Even though we're bathed in nitrogen gas around the atmosphere, about 78% of the Earth's atmosphere, we can't use nitrogen.
		That is, plants can't use it.
		Germs have to break down nitrogen gas to nitrates.
		And therefore, these bacterial conversion of nitrogen gas allows plants to survive.
		And lastly, without germs, we could not recycle organic matter.
		All organic matter, including plants, animals, and human beings, die.
		If it were not for germs, we could not recycle those organics into inorganic compounds to be reused.
		There would be a build-up, literally, of carcasses on this planet until we run out of resources and life would cease to exist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, Professor, I know with regard to the ozone, they're very worried about small things like frogs and other things that they think have been affected by the ozone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, something as large as a frog or even a polywog or whatever is already being affected by the depletion of the ozone, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the little tiny things were affected some time ago?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, the ozone layer is revealed in just one particular area right now that's really bad.
		In fact, it's about the size of, oh, I would say, Australia.
		It's about the hole that was uncovered is about 390, no, strike, it's about 10 million square miles.
		It's in the southern hemisphere of our globe.
		If that increases in size, more ultraviolet light would be able to strike the Earth, thereby killing off animal species that are sensitive to it.
		And you know, already we're seeing more skin cancers caused by this ultraviolet radiation.
		So man is affecting adversely his environment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, up by hundreds of percent for both men and women in the last, I think, 30 years.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		But again, there is the other caveat that we must always keep in mind to temper this condition, and that is man has unique knowledge and is able to, in fact, intervene in the phenomenon and take the necessary steps to rectify whatever damage he causes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		man with his brain has been doing a lot of intervention and uh...
		particularly since the discovery of antibiotics we've been intervening a lot now um...
		i've It is, and it's one I want to get into a little bit here.
		I notice that in the last several years, we've been getting fewer and fewer newer heroic antibiotics.
		I mean, sort of last-ditch tri-antibiotics.
		But, you know, it seems like the diseases are mounting up faster than the new heroic antibiotics.
		And I wonder what you think about that.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's mainly because of the improper use of antibiotics that has occurred.
		Let's look a little bit at antibiotics, extraordinary concept.
		In the United States, 150 million prescriptions are written annually.
		Of these, 60%, 6-0, are for antibiotics.
		That translates to about 90 million prescriptions.
		Of the 90 million antibiotic prescriptions, 50 million antibiotic prescriptions are totally unnecessary.
		Now, when you consider that that's the primary reason for antibiotic resistance development, the inappropriate use of antibiotics, that is profound.
		50 million of the 90 million are unnecessary.
		Now, 3 million antibiotics are used to treat disease.
		I'm sorry, 3 million pounds of antibiotics.
		Of course, with the inappropriate and improper use.
		In the United States agricultural industry, 25 million, which is 70% of the production of antibiotics, goes into livestock and other non-medicinal uses.
		That's a second reason for antibiotic resistance development.
		And in fact, this costs the American taxpayer around $5 billion.
		So antibiotic resistance is a man-made phenomenon.
		Certainly, microorganisms have been around a long time and have the biochemical ability to eventually evade even the smartest of man's creations, unless we go into something called multi-headed antibiotics.
		And by that I mean antibiotics generally work in one way.
		Let's say they interfere with cell wall.
		Let's take penicillin.
		And once they interfere with the cell wall synthesis, they create a hole in the bacterium, and that eventually kills the bacterium.
		The bacterium just explodes and loses its ability to function.
		But if the organism develops a resistance to penicillin, penicillin no longer works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which is its natural evolutionary reaction to penicillin, right?
unidentified		Correct.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		And we select for strains, of course, that would be resistant if a patient is on that.
		But if we do something, and that's what manufacturers are doing now, called multi-headed antibiotic development, take different sites on a molecule and have it interfere, let's say, with a cell wall, have another portion of the molecule interfere with protein synthesis, have another portion of the molecule interfere with DNA replication, have another interfering with cell membrane function, let's say, and on and on.
		We have what's called multi-headed antibiotics to which germs will have a difficult time developing resistance during the average treatment period.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope we're really smarter, but I mean, suppose one of them actually evolves sufficiently to tackle this multi-headed approach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, what are you going to end up with then?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, it's unlikely because let's say by mutation, you have one in a million cell divisions of bacteria that would give rise to a mutant that would be resistant.
		If you have two methods of injuring a cell, that would be double the mutation rate, one times ten to the twelfth.
		That's one with twelve zeros after it, number of cell divisions that would have to occur before you develop resistance to both drugs.
		With three, it's one times ten to the eighteenth.
		With four, it's one times ten to the twenty-fourth, and on and on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But every now and then, someone hits the $100 million lottery.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but $100 million is nothing in comparison.
		I wouldn't say nothing.
		Anyway, but $100 million as a number is nothing compared to the number I'm talking about.
		I'm talking about 1 times 10 to the 32.
		I mean, 32 zeros after the 1.
		That's the number of divisions it would take to, let's say, have 5 mutations occur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then maybe we are smarter.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think we're pretty smart.
		And we're starting to learn that we can't give antibiotics to patients because they demand it.
		But we need to have also what I call a paradigm change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But here we're fighting nature, human nature, because if you go in with something that could get kicked away fairly quickly with an antibiotic, you're going to damn well want it.
		And if your doctor doesn't give it to you, he's not going to have a lot of business.
		I mean, he knows he's in business to try to make people that come to him feel better, so he's going to give them what they want to feel better.
		That's just human nature.
		Now, I know that a lot of these things, if untreated, the immune system would take care of just fine without antibiotics, but that isn't the way the world works.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		But as they say, if we have a paradigm change, that is, instead of treating infections with antibiotics, we look to nature to treat the infection, like probiotics, for example, is a perfect example.
		You take good bacteria like lactobacilli.
		People take yogurt and cultivates when they're on antibiotics to protect their body from flora that will be lost with the antibiotics and to allow those good bacteria to reside in our intestines and thereby protect us.
		In the same way, we can take those antibiotics when we have gastroenteritis.
		I'm sorry, probiotics.
		We take those bacterial cultures and we can ingest them, and that will help maintain the normal fluorous state of the intestines, thereby eliminating the pathogenic germ.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But how do you get this paradigm shift that says we need to begin treating in a different way 90% of the time or better?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the hard part.
		I addressed that in the last chapter of my book.
		I give 17 different ways of treating other than the use of antibiotics.
		And some of them, if you might want to hear biopharming, for example, using a botanic like spinach to administer vaccines.
		Have the genes for the vaccine in the spinach leaf so that when you're eating your spinach, you can take a vaccine instead of using injections.
		Having the use of certain decoy molecules, and we're doing this with the flu, influenza, where you inject an individual with decoys or you take them by mouth, and the sites are like receptor sites on the body, so they compete with the germ.
		You can also do what's called bacteriopharge therapy, which was used by the Russians during World War II, where they drink a little cocktail of bacterial viruses that kill dysentery, let's say, which you often get in battle.
		This diarrhea would be raising havoc with soldiers fighting.
		So the Russians would take these cocktails.
		The Americans would use antibiotics, and the Russians would fare better by having these bacterial viruses which were specific against specific pathogens in the intestines, killing them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So why haven't we taken this path?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, to tell you the truth, the easy answer is antibiotics developed, and we thought we had it licked.
		We thought there wouldn't even be need to culture various infecting sites.
		Just give people antibiotics.
		Germs are passe.
		They're gone.
		Well, it looks like germs were a little smarter than we thought they were, and they don't even have a brain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We thought we win, and we didn't win.
		Yes.
		One very quick question, because we're near the bottom of the hour.
		There's one school of thought among the general populace that says colds and flu are really good for us, that it builds our immune system and prepares us, and that people who really are ultra-clean and careful and wash their hands, they just, you know, you hear them all the time, oh, I never get sick.
		Well, then something comes along and really just clobbers the hell out of them because their immune system wasn't ready for it.
		Is that foolishness or is that true?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's not true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's not true.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Nobody can eliminate all of the germs we come in contact with.
		There is nothing you can do.
		No use of a germicide, no use of a product, an antibiotic, nothing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So boil down, we're out of time here.
		But in other words, the point is that getting colds or getting the flu does not build you stronger.
		Is that right?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		It does initially when you first get them in your immune system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But not in the long term.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		But not in the long term.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I wanted to know.
		Stay right there.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		My guest is Dr. Philip M. Giro Jr.
		He's one of our nation's leading microbiologists.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		This is Premier Networks.
		that was our bell hosting coast-to-coast a m on this somewhere in time To be free again.
		And I've got such a long way to go.
		Take it to the border of Mexico.
		So I ride like the wind.
		I'm a broken sun of the longest man.
		I'll spoke my mind.
		With a gun in my hand, living life.
		I'm dancing, but I ride like the wind.
		And I've got since long.
		So long we're not going to warn you.
		So Sweet dreams are made of the end.
		Whoever might be.
		I travel the world and the temperatures beat.
		Everybody is looking for something.
		Some of them want to use you.
		Some of them want to get used by you.
		Some of them want to abuse you.
		Some of them want to be abused Ooh Sweet dreams are made of leaves.
		We're mine to discover.
		Travel the world and seven seas.
		Everybody is looking.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 14th, 2002.
		We're about to go to Crohn's with Professor Gerno.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm Art Bell.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Stay right where you are.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 14, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Coast to Coast AM Doctor, my wife and I love Paris, France.
		It's our favorite city.
		Even if the French aren't our favorite people, Paris is beautiful.
		It's romantic.
		We go there when we can a lot.
		But, you know, you get on an airplane at Charles de Gaulle and you fly to Los Angeles.
		Inevitably, you get on the plane, no matter where you are, you're next to some lady who's got a little kid about like eight months old that's dumping in his diaper about every, I don't know, 45 minutes or so for the flight.
		And then you have another person very near you who's snotting all over the place, has obviously the flu or a terrible cold or whatever.
		And I have yet to take one transatlantic or Pacific flight and not come back sick as a dog.
		Airplanes are bad, aren't they?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, unfortunately, to some degree, you're right.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		They are like trapping their guests, if you want to call them that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Baluminum incubators.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and you can transmit.
		I have gotten ill after a flight, in fact, to Paris, France.
		There was a woman in front of me sneezing and coughing without covering themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		And three days later, into my Paris trip, I developed the symptoms of a cold.
		Unfortunately, those in closest proximity to individuals are more susceptible.
		Interestingly enough, a few years ago, the air packs that airplanes used to be closed, and about 50% of them during a flight to save on fuel, these air packs allow fresh air to come in and to mix with the cabin air.
		And that helps a great deal in fighting such infections, but it cannot eliminate them totally.
		So you are subject to the vagaries of life dependent upon the passenger list.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's inevitable.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		There have been interesting case reports where tuberculosis was actually passed during a flight.
		And in fact, that occurred in a few cases.
		There are a few reports by the World Health Organization.
		The same is so for some other organisms like influenza that had been shown and documented to have been spread during a flight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I want to go to the phones.
		I'm late doing that, so let's do that.
		First time call our line.
		You're on the air with Dr. Cherno.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
		Thank you for taking my call.
		Sure.
		I had a couple of related questions for your guest with regards to CJD.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I had two family members, a great aunt and a great uncle, who both died from it.
		They were in the same immediate family.
		And then a couple years later, I went in for surgery and received tainted albumin from a donor who later turned out to have CJD and died from it.
		And now I've been looking into getting further surgery.
		It's an ongoing problem with a birth defect that I had.
		And now the doctors are a little concerned about my exposure to this with regards to the instruments because I'll be working close to my brain.
		And I'm wondering, is there any test for me to get to tell whether or not I have CJD?
		And if not, or if so, is there a way for them to be able to sterilize their equipment without destroying it?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not going to give you any medical advice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can't do that on the air, really.
		Is there a test?
		That's a therapist.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		There is a test that is available.
		It's a special test that your doctor has access to.
		It's an expensive test.
		As to its efficacy, it may not be the highest in sensitivity.
		I guess the best way to detect is by doing brain scans and to examine by doing an MRI whether you do have any evidence of such lesions on the brain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So short of those sorts of procedures, if you were advising a surgeon, you would say do all that before operating under those circumstances?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		No, with this pure suspect, Chris Vol-Jakob disease, and the good thing is, if anything, you would have the slow type, the one we're used to seeing, not the Mad Cow type.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		The best thing to do is to destroy the instruments that are used because of the difficulty in sterilizing them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is Mad Cal likely to show up in the United States?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Not at this time.
		There's no evidence for that.
		We do have a disease very similar to it called the chronic wasting disease, CWD, of elk and moose, which is very similar, if not identical, with prion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's in the wild, yes.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes, in the wild.
		And we're afraid that some hunters, when they go eat the deer, they may eat portions of the deer that may be tainted with this material.
		So that's being looked at very carefully.
		As far as may cow coming here, it's not likely.
		We take extreme care to assure that our beef stocks are absolutely good.
		And, of course, anything is possible.
		It's not probable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it would kill me.
		I'm a beef eater.
		I love beef.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Tirno.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		This is Brandy in East Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Doctor?
		How are you?
		Two summers ago, my daughter was one of the children in this area who came down with encephalitis in a very short period of time.
		Several, a great many children did.
		And I wondered, is there any connection between encephalitis and urinary tract infections?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		What was the organism of encephalitis?
unidentified		See, we never got, you know, I was there for a week and you talked to the other parents when you're in a hospital for a week.
		And they never really gave us much.
		They said that it was most likely a mosquito-borne encephalitis.
		But other than that, that's all they told us.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		So then it's a viral encephalitis, much like the equine encephalitis carried by mosquitoes, much like West Nile.
		No, there would be no connection of those organisms with that syndrome.
		You sure it was encephalitis and not meningitis?
unidentified		That's what they said, but there were like eight kids that came in within like three or four hours to the hospital, and she was one of them.
		And talking to the other parents, nearly all of them that I spoke to said that they had severe, according to the doctors, severe urinary tract infections, and they wanted to put catheters in all of them because they couldn't determine whether the infection was in their bladder or the kidney.
		And I thought it was very strange.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes viruses, in addition to their target organ, which might be the brain in this case, sometimes viruses can cause systemic Damage.
		So that's a possibility.
		In other words, even a flu virus can not only infect your respiratory tree, but it may infect other organs in the body during the course of that.
		Even poliomyelitis, that has a predilection for the spinal cord and the brain, may give you gastroenteritis, let's say, and other types of syndromes or symptoms before it does its final target organ thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, in the last month or two, I've been getting a lot of stories of schools closing because of unidentified rashes that have been appearing in clusters in students.
		Some describe it as something like slapped-faced disease or something like that.
		They call it something like that, but not that.
		Something else that they have not yet identified.
		You've been hearing anything about that?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes, in New York City, we've had, in fact, a couple of schools involved.
		I spoke with the Department of Health on that, in fact, last week.
		And no determination was made as to what caused these rashes that were not only on the face, they were elsewhere on the body, and it looked like a typical allergic reaction.
		Sometimes you're not going to find out the cause.
		It could be something as simple as a child putting itch powder throughout a particular classroom or area, and no one will determine that because by the time symptoms develop, people are scratching and all traces of the itch powder is gone.
		There were no infecting organisms that could be detected in any of these events.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then after the rash is gone, I've heard that people are left with sort of a bumpy, weird skin.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, some of that has to do with trauma.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		But in any hypersensitive reaction, you might react that way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		East of the Rockies, you are on the air with Dr. Tierneau.
		Hello.
unidentified		Gentlemen, I have two extremely important questions.
unidentified		First, isn't it true that colds kill weak cells and let the strong cells survive and flourish?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Get the answer to that one.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Is that true, Dr. First off, when you say colds, there are so many agents that cause the common colds that we experience attributed to different groups.
		Rhinoviruses, coronaviruses, adenoviruses.
		Even an influenza virus can give rise to symptoms that we would call colds and para-influenza viruses, although they do cause also the flu.
		So when you generalize like that, immediately we have to say that is not the case.
		All cells have receptocytes for specific viruses, and it is those cells that are infected.
		The virus eventually, by nature, kills the cells that it infects because it has to do what's called burst.
		It's a burst size.
		It reaches, in other words, it reaches a large enough size where it's reproduced many viruses within the cell, and the only way to get the viruses out is to burst the cell.
		Once it reaches burst size, it infects any cells in its area so that the cells are not resistant necessarily to the virus.
		The virus is going to infect at random different cells and kill them.
		So what you're saying, I don't believe is true.
		You're saying the virus basically is selecting weak cells.
		That's not the case.
unidentified		Is it true, Doctor, that Ebola patients that survive are carriers after they survive?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		A lot has been unknown about the Ebola virus.
		It's interesting that you bring up Ebola virus because I do go into that in my book.
		In fact, I have a scenario of a man at a urinal almost fainting, being a United Nations employee, having come down with Ebola, unknown to him.
		And at the urinal, as he moves away, he almost faints, and two Good Samaritans grab him to hold him up.
		And in so doing, they contact his hands and his garments, which are replete with some vomitus, which contains the Ebola, as well as secretions, including urine, that contains the Ebola, so it could be spread in that way.
		The chances are, if you survive it, you have antibody sufficient.
		Nobody really knows if there's a dormancy of the Ebola viruses or the hemorrhagic viruses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Antibody sufficient, yes, for yourself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the question was, are you a carrier?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		So I'm saying, you may have antibodies, but nobody really knows if you do have remnants of the virus in you.
		That would be one of the hemorrhagic viruses.
		It would appear to me not to be the case because we have vaccines against some of the hemorrhagic viruses, and after Vaccination: We don't see people come down with those hemorrhagic viruses anymore or that particular strain that they got vaccinated from.
		So, I would imagine if you develop an immune response, you're not going to carry the virus.
		Although, I don't know, and I don't think anyone does, there's no absolute evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, your books, The Secret Life of Germs, Observations and Lessons from a microbe hunter, the hardback, and protect yourself against bioterrorism, the softcover that you've got out right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are both of these currently available at Amazon and the usual?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Amazon.com, Barnes and Noble's, and available at most bookstores.
		You may have to ask for it.
		Sometimes they put it in the science section, so they put it off the front of the store.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you written this?
		I mean, you are a microbiologist.
		Have you written this so that people really, the average person can understand what you're saying?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		This is written for the lay public and is a book that is dedicated to make them understand the magnificence of microorganisms and not to make them fearful of microorganisms, but to give them the knowledge they need to carry on their everyday life with the least amount of risk.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's see if we have time.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Tierneau.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello, Doctor.
		This is J.D. Collin from Arcata, California, up here in the Redwood Nation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I had a question about the origin of protocells.
		I understand our ancient atmosphere was comprised of mostly like methane and ammonia and other nasty compounds.
		And I heard in a lab situation, scientists have synthesized organic molecules using the Miller apparatus and basically creating the building blocks of life.
		And my question is, do you think we'll be able to take that essential next step and synthesize basic life in a lab situation in the near future from these organic molecules?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Well, as you pointed out, I do address that, by the way, in my book.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		And there were many researchers that have discovered abilities of germs, and they've actually concocted prototypical type cells or cell-like materials.
unidentified		Were they photosynthetic?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		No.
		In fact, what they were, they were just materials, genetic materials that would be the beginning or the start of primordial type life.
		Using the Miller-Uray experiments and then later experiments performed by other researchers, they've managed to put together compounds that would have been put together during the formation of the primordial cells.
		So I think it is possible for that to occur, where the life itself can be created de novo.
		That's another question.
unidentified		So was the first thing they created, the scientists, when they were creating these protocells, was it RNA?
unidentified		Was that the basic key?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		No, what they were doing is they used, in the early Earth, the atmosphere had no gaseous oxygen.
		It was comprised mostly of methane, hydrogen, and ammonia, and some water vapor.
		And what they did is they synthesized, remember the experiments of the Russian biochemist Ulperin and the British biologist Haldale, Haldane rather.
		Well, Miller and Ure used their model and constructed the primordial conditions of the Earth and showed that with an electrical spark, as would occur with lightning, you can make amino acids and you can make other types of building blocks of life.
		The idea here is to show how life began rather than to create life.
unidentified		But I don't understand.
		If life began mostly as simple organisms that had to have RNA, you know, to start synthesizing the proteins, it's kind of like a chicken and the egg.
		Which came first?
		You can't have RNA to make the proteins, but you have to have the proteins to make the organisms.
		Right.
		How did that start?
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Okay, scientists currently believe that life was in a primordial soup which was replete with all the necessary ingredients for the propagation of life.
		For example, they didn't need to be photosynthetic.
		Life started with all the ingredients in a pool, and the first cell coalesced into a rounded mist cell, it's called.
		And that mist cell was able to get nutrients.
		Later, organisms had to be able to produce what they needed.
		So it evolved over a long period of time.
		It's not like the chicken and the egg.
		It's really like a cell was formed in this primordial sea that was able to utilize whatever was accumulated over the time of the evolution of the Earth, enabling it to survive and divide.
		Later, it depleted that store so that evolution favored those organisms that were able to become autosynthetic, able to produce their own materials to survive, and killed off the so-called heterotrophs in that primordial sea.
		Evolution occurred slowly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
		All right.
		Doctor, we're out of time.
		That's how quickly it goes.
		Boy, what a fantastic guest you are.
		Kind of the Carl Sagan of microbiology.
		Really something.
		I really appreciate your being here, and I hope that when we invite you back, you will come.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		My pleasure.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Yes, definitely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hope you sell lots and lots of books, and I'm sure you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, sir.
philip tierno ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, and good night to you all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that was Dr. Philip M. Tierno, Jr.
		His book's available at Amazon.com through my website link to his book.
		And you certainly may want to read Protect Yourself Against Bioterrorism for the Secret Life of the Germ sounds fascinating.
		From the high desert, you know who I am.

▲