Dr. Janis Amatuzio, the "compassionate coroner," explores death’s mysteries through cases like Greg’s post-accident apparitions and a husband’s glowing return to his widow, defying grief-hallucination explanations. She examines rare phenomena—Einstein’s weight-loss study, a 1977 surgery patient’s out-of-body claims, and hospice patients seeing deceased loved ones—while acknowledging science’s limits. Callers debate "intelligent energy" as consciousness, with Amatuzio noting morphine tolerance and DEA scrutiny often obscure death’s true circumstances. Ultimately, the episode blurs science and spirituality, leaving lingering questions about life after death and the boundaries of human experience. [Automatically generated summary]
Well, so they're not taking any chances up in Salt Lake, of course.
And it would be a likely target, wouldn't it?
Now, gee, we've got this big warning, and we've got the Olympics going on.
Let me see.
Big warning.
Olympics.
Big warning.
Olympics.
Could there be a connection?
Well, of course, they're not going to say anything about it, but I'm sure they're thinking there could be.
Check this out.
Acme, this is from Newsmax.
Acme Red-A-Car.
There really is an Acme Red-A-Car, but it was just in cartoons.
A Connecticut-based car rental company has been ordered by state officials there to stop tracking its customers by satellite.
Acme installed GPS on all of its rental cars in an effort to prevent speeding.
Acme began tracking customers with a GPS unit in 2000.
Any customer who exceeded 79 miles per hour for at least two minutes was then fined $150.
I didn't even know they were doing it.
I had no idea they were doing that.
I mean, I know about what is it, Lojack, I think, a system that can locate a stolen car, but I had no idea they were actually monitoring the speed of people who rent cars.
Gee, that's a new one.
All right, break, and we'll be right back.
I've got quite a bit more here.
There's so much interesting stuff going on in the world.
How's your back?
My back is absolutely, well, you know about my back, right?
It's a disaster area.
And the thing that will help you if you have a bad back is an air mattress.
I wonder how many of you know about air mattresses, really high-quality air mattresses.
Well, Select Comfort, a company that's advertised here before, makes a really, really high-quality air mattress.
The fact of the matter is, 80% of all of you out there at some point in your lives will experience back pain, and it's horrible.
There probably isn't anything worse.
And there'll be a lot of contention about that, but I tell you when your back is out, Select Comfort provides a bed that is so good, so high-tech, that either side of the bed can be set precisely in a way to cause you to have the best night's sleep in your whole life.
So if you have trouble sleeping, and I'm the king of that category too, this bed is what you want.
Not only that, but it's so high-tech that when you find the precise setting that is right for you, and that's so, I can't even begin to stress how important that is, a number comes up, and that's the memory.
In other words, it remembers exactly the way you like your bed.
So if you ever change it, you just put the number back, and your exact setting comes back.
You have a setting for your side.
Your partner has a setting for her side, his or her side, depending on who I'm speaking with right now, I guess.
And everybody wins.
It's an incredible bed.
Absolutely an incredible bed.
So if you've got a bad back, if you're having trouble sleeping, then I guarantee, I guarantee this is the answer for you.
The Sleep Number Bed by Select Comfort uses adjustable air chambers that will let you set up each side of the bed exactly the way you want it.
And then this smart bed remembers the way you wanted it.
This is so cool.
Call them at 1-800-985-7100.
That's 1-800-985-7100.
You know what they'll do?
They will send you a free video and a brochure.
It's much easier to see what I'm talking about than it is for me to tell you about it.
So they offer this free video and a brochure.
You can read about it, and you can slam a video into the VCR, and you can decide if it's for you.
And if you've got a bad back, it's for you.
Trust me.
Their number again is 1-800-985-7100.
Now, if you would like to begin to virtually get younger as you sleep on that nice bed, then listen to me very carefully because there is something new in the world.
There's HGH, human growth hormone.
And at first, in the first 10 weeks, you will experience the feeling of being 10 years younger than you are today.
Then as time goes on, though, the physical changes begin.
The wrinkles that were deepening begin to not be so deep, and you haven't put any cream on at all.
All you do is take this orally.
It's not like the shot in the stomach that the other HGH is.
This you take orally.
And I guarantee you will begin to see physical differences in yourself.
Aside from the skin, your immune system is going to get stronger.
Your vital organs, which you cannot see, will begin to regenerate.
You'll have more energy.
You'll notice your vision is getting better.
That's right.
Your vision getting better.
Your memory improving.
Mood elevation stronger.
Bones, all the things that we associate with youth.
Human growth hormone causes your own body to manufacture more of your own HGH.
So it's safe and it works.
If you want to try it, it's about $33 a month from Great American Products.
It's called HGH, Ultimate HGH.
Call them and get some on the way at 1-800-557-4627.
That's 1-800-557-4627.
Well, well, well, well, check this out.
Apparently, our schools here are not the only ones having problems, mold problems all across the country, and now rash problems across the country as well.
I read you a story last week, and now a mystery rash that seems to have infected up to 40 students, mostly girls, at Abraham Lincoln Elementary School in Medford, Oregon, might, they think, be related to A viral infection known as slap cheek disease.
Slap-cheek disease.
We want to say it's not serious at Medford dermatologist David Trask.
It's our opinion that this could very well be viral.
At first, six dermatologists and one general practitioner thought the children were suffering from some sort of eczema.
But Trask said, quote, I think these kids have more than just eczema.
So something he wanted to assuage the parents' fears and said that it could be something, it probably is not something worries, certainly not anthrax, he said.
And so these children have something.
I'm seeing more and more every day I get more and more of these stories of a mysterious this, a mysterious that, lashes, things, odd diseases that we haven't seen before, things that the scientists just can't figure out, more and more and more of that sort of thing.
Here's something that we talk about with a couple of guests that verifies what they were saying.
You may recall Richard C. Hoagland mentioned that one of our satellites out there, one of our deep space probes, was actually being slowed by some mysterious force.
Now listen to this article.
Mysterious force holds back NASA probe in deep space.
A space probe launched 30 years ago has come under the influence of a force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the laws of physics.
Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up pictures of Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 83, is being pulled back to the sun by some unknown force.
The effect shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels deeper into space.
Scientists are considering the possibility that the probe has revealed a new force of nature.
A new force of nature.
So as we travel into deep space, something begins pulling us back.
Oh my, what could that be?
If the effect is real, according to Dr. Lang, it will have a very big impact on cosmology and spacecraft navigation.
I wonder if that means that we can't leave.
I mean, really leave.
That there is some force of nature that we so don't understand that it would actually disallow us to go to deep space to travel to some other star, perhaps.
And last night, as the Brooklyn woman remained in critical condition at New York Methodist Hospital, two emergency medical techs were placed on modified duty while officials investigate whether they witnessed a miracle or made a mistake.
BEMTs, one of whom has 16 years experience on the job, pronounced the 77-year-old woman dead in her apartment Saturday afternoon.
Police said a source said the fact that she was extremely cold to the touch and that her seventh-floor apartment had a strong odor made it seem rather unlikely she could be alive.
When a coroner from a medical examiner's office, like my guest tonight, arrived at 5.35, however, he found Foster to have a faint pulse.
They rushed her to Methodist emergency room.
Emmy came in, lifted the body, and it apparently caused a spontaneous heartbeat.
Foster's next-door neighbor reported her missing Saturday afternoon, police said.
She hadn't been seen in a while, police said.
It was not clear yesterday how long it had been since she had left her apartment.
Police arrived.
They found the woman's body, called an ambulance.
EMTs arrived less than two minutes later and pronounced her dead.
Source said police at the scene, also believing she was dead, called for a supervisor.
Mike Prindegast, a fire department spokesperson, said that two EMTs will be placed on modified duty pending an internal review by the State Health Department.
They will not be permitted to treat patients, he said, but what may have happened there, as they admitted earlier in the article, is a miracle.
It could have been a miracle.
I mean, if the body has, well, ask the ME we're going to have on tonight.
But if there's a bad smell coming from the body and it's dead cold, most of us would make, I'll tell you, I've got a lot to say on this subject.
I'm doing a lot of thinking about it lately.
Listen to this.
Men may be redundant.
The article says, men redundant.
Now we don't need women either.
Doctors are developing artificial wombs in which embryos can grow outside a woman's body.
The work has been hailed as a breakthrough in treating the childless.
Here we go.
Scientists have created prototypes made out of cells extracted from women's bodies.
Embryos successfully attached themselves to the walls of these laboratory wombs and began to grow.
However, the experiments had to be terminated after a few days to comply with the in vitro fertilization regulations, IVF regulations.
According to Dr. Ching Lu of the Cornell University Center for Reproductive Medicine, we hope to create complete artificial wombs using these techniques.
Women with damaged uteruses and wombs will be able to have babies now for the first time.
The pace of progress in the field has startled experts.
Artificial wombs could end many women's childbirth problems.
They also, of course, raise major ethical headaches, which are going to be debated at a major international conference titled The End of Natural Motherhood.
Question mark.
That'll be in Oklahoma next week.
The organizer of that said there are going to be real problems.
Some feminists even say artificial wombs mean men could eliminate women from the planet and still perpetuate our species.
That's a bit alarmist.
Nevertheless, this subject raises strong feelings.
It raises strong feelings in me, too.
First, it was the whole thing about artificial insemination and semen, and pretty soon there'd be feminists out there who don't need men.
Remember all that?
Remember the big brouhaha over all that?
Well, now you might not need women either.
In an artificial womb, it's kind of like being born in a test tube, really, isn't it?
How far are we from the year 25, 25, when your arms, if I recall, hang limp at your side?
Something about the child you choose being plucked from the bottom of a long black tube.
I don't know that I buy it totally, but the question is, is human evolution finally over?
And the scientist bases his theory on the fact that in the West we have eliminated the process of natural selection.
Natural selection, of course, being basically the strong survive, the weak do not.
And so the genome is enriched, and we continue to change and become stronger.
Now, of course, we're very compassionate here in the West, and we do.
We save people.
We keep people alive who would normally never, never, never be able to continue to live without heroic medical techniques that we have now.
And so you could make that case.
Now, it could be all wrong, and this young lady could be exactly right, that the factors influencing evolution have changed, therefore we will become something else, simply something else.
Well, the only thing, I heard this about 10 days ago, and I've been trying to get back in with you because there hasn't been anything on our news or in our paper about it, but I heard it on Paul Harvey that they even asked the government to get involved in trying to help them locate the noise because the government wouldn't get involved.
Yeah, well, the government may be making the noise.
unidentified
Right.
Well, the other thing, right quick, the FBI in New York called our offices here the other day and informed us that there would be five Arabs coming down to buy driver's licenses from a member of the Tennessee Highway Patrol here in Memphis.
Hey, you know, I'll stand by you tooth and nail if anyone wants to argue about what's the worst kind of pain, because the pain, amen, is far the worst.
They're just, in other words, apparently the weather people there are seeing returns on their radar that don't match up with anything in the sky.
And so, you know, that obviously indicates there's something in the air or the sky there that they don't understand.
You can take it from there.
unidentified
Yeah, and like you were saying before the bottom of the hour about the new terror alert and the Olympics, you know, maybe, you know, I have no way to back this up, maybe it's like a mass inoculation for a chemical weapon.
You know, after 9-11, I'm prepared to believe almost anything can happen.
Thank you.
And, you know, our government would not be doing its job if it did not take extraordinary safety measures and precautions for us.
That is, after all, what they are there for.
To protect the constituents, that would be all of us.
And so you can bet they're doing it.
They appear to be doing a pretty good job of it, too.
So far, so good.
I mean, the FBI really seems to be full-time on this.
And really, so far, since 9-11, you've got to give them a pretty good rating overall.
They get a pretty good rating.
What we've done militarily, pretty good rating.
What they've done domestically, pretty good rating.
The tendency, of course, is to go a little bit overboard, and I'm sure there's going to be, I've already given you an instance or two of that, but generally, you've got to say that our government has been doing a fair to middle and job here in protecting us since 9-11.
I'll tell you a little story about how I ate when I was there that might amuse you, Sarah.
I spent a year, a year, a decade, or better than a decade, on Okinawa, and first in the Air Force at Kadena Air Force Base on Okinawa.
And then following that, working for the only commercial English-speaking broadcast station in the Far East, KSBK.
In fact, I got an email from somebody who had some tapes from KSBK on Okinawa.
And I wrote back to them and asked, with me on it, and I wrote back and asked and begged they send me copies, and I hope I get them.
If I do, I'll play them for you.
It's remarkable stuff.
Anyway, Okinawa was a kind of an interesting place.
And I lived when I went back in Naha, which is the main city, capital city was of Okinawa.
And now a prefecture, actually.
The island is a prefecture of Japan.
But it wasn't then.
At any rate, I lived as a civilian.
You know, once I came back and I was no longer associated with the Air Force, I liked it so much I went back.
Then I had to sort of live as a Japanese person at Okinawan would live.
And that means that I had to eat mostly what they would eat.
And so the only way you could do it would be to go into a restaurant, and they had many of those.
And all the menus were put on little strips of paper that would hang from above the counter.
And of course not knowing how to read Kagani at that point, and certainly not Kanji, still can't read Kanji, what I was forced to do would be I would go into the restaurant and I would just look at the pieces of paper, not knowing what any of them meant, and I would point at one of them.
And they would bring me stuff.
Now, sometimes there was stuff in this bowl that, you know, like you wouldn't recognize.
Floating stuff.
Stuff like teeth.
Not really teeth, I suppose, but you know, you never quite tell exactly what it was.
It was floating in there.
And sometimes you'd get rice, which was always easy and good.
And sometimes you'd get other things that were indiscernible.
But you ate them, you know.
And instead of starving to death, you ate them.
But that's the way we had order until I learned.
And, you know, I made friends and I began to learn which strip to point to.
No, I'm sure that I talk about it at the time, sir, but 96, that's a long time ago.
I'm going to have to, as the witnesses would say, refresh my memory.
unidentified
Yes.
Looking at this, though, you know how someone can see something and they'll describe it to someone else, they'll describe it to somebody else, down the line, everything gets bigger.
You know, if there's not reality behind, thank you very much, if there's not reality behind these pictures and depictions we see of grays, then something curious to wonder about is where it all got started.
Suppose the whole thing is nonsense.
Suppose the whole thing about aliens is nonsense, and all of the photographs and the pictures and the renditions and the, you know, people have told us about seeing these creatures, these aliens.
Suppose all that is hogwash.
Then where do you suppose all of this got started?
And how did a gray become popularized?
As a matter of fact, if you look at my webcam photo, I think it's on there.
Let me see which one I took today.
Tonight.
You know, as you know, Rush Limbaugh had a statue of an alien, which blew me away when I went to his studio in New York at WABC.
Absolutely blew me away.
unidentified
I went in there and I said, what is Rush doing with this?
And I got some chuckles, and my wife left, I think, a $20 bill in the alien's hand.
And it was this gigantic five-foot-high wood-carved alien.
And, oh, what is Rush doing with this?
And so time went by, perhaps a year, and Rush bequeathed it to me.
He sent it to me.
We were doing a thing down in Los Angeles, you know, a talk radio type thing.
And they presented this thing to me on stage.
And if you look at my webcam photo, it's at artbell.com, on the right-hand side, past my smiling face, on the right-hand side, you will see this gray alien.
Now, you don't see all of it.
There are arms and legs and all the rest of it, but you will see this alien with gigantic black eyes, absolutely a gray, no question about it.
Where do you suppose all of this got started?
If there's not some germ of truth, was it some science fiction writer that began all this?
Well, all right, because it's a Steve, the same thing.
Now you've got your radio on in the background, and I've got to go anyway because we're about to do a break at the top of the hour and then the speaker for the dead.
But I don't see the difference whether we create an event or we attempt to manipulate the weather or we do any other mass mind experiment.
I really feel like we're tampering with things that we don't even begin to understand.
I certainly don't.
unidentified
A very old friend came by today Cause he was telling everyone in town All the love that he just found And the reason they are the way it's From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
He taught and taught, and I heard him say That he had the longest bucket there The prettiest green guy anywhere And the reason ain't for the gladest flame Hmm.
So I smiled and tears inside were burning.
I wished him luck and then he said goodbye.
Goodbye.
The End
To rechart Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
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First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
Actually, I think Speaker for the Dead is just a fine term for what Dr. Janice Amatuzio does.
Janice Amatuzio MD trained at the University of Minnesota and the Hempen County Medical Center and the Medical Examiner's Office in Minneapolis, Minnesota before founding the Midwest Forensic Pathology PA Board, certified in atomic and atomic, forensic and clinical pathology.
She is a recognized authority in forensic medicine, has developed many courses in topics like death investigation, forensic nursing, and forensic medicine in mortuary science.
Dr. Amatuzio serves as coroner and a regional resource for multiple counties in Minnesota and Wisconsin.
Dr. Amatusio, often called the compassionate coroner, is an exemplar for the compassionate practice of forensic medicine.
As someone whose life's work has been speaking for the deceased, there you are.
She has now also provided a voice for family and friends by allowing their stories to be heard in her new book called Forever Ours.
coming up in just a moment All right, here comes Dr. Janice Amatuzio.
Well, you know, you really just have to follow your heart.
I had an opportunity to do a rotation at the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office with some of the great physicians, Dr. John Coe, Dr. Cal Bant, Dr. Kenny Osterberg.
And I saw them solving puzzles and solving mysteries, and it just got me so very excited.
Well, they run specials on TV, and I can't remember which network, but autopsies and mysteries that are solved by people just like yourself in ways that are so, so incredibly astounding.
I mean, it is amazing, I guess, what the body of a person can tell you about what happened to them.
You can, I guess you can tell, what can you tell about a person?
I mean, aside from, you know, the criminal aspect of how they might have been died or murdered or something, just in a normal autopsy, what kind of things can you reveal to you about the way that person lived?
And, you know, and then when you get into the internal aspects of a body, you can begin to see how a person lived, if they've destroyed their lungs with cigarette smoking or, you know, whether or not they've eaten diets that are high in sugar and fat and have some of the hardening of the arteries, all those cholesterol problems, or whether they're fit.
It really is an examination of the choices of our lives.
We don't always die as we live, but when we die, and when we die suddenly or unexpectedly or from violent causes, the medical examiner, the coroner, becomes involved, and we have to do some explaining.
Well, for one thing, you really feel like you're making a difference.
In order for people to get on with living, they have to grieve.
And in order to grieve, they have to have answers.
And what we can do is to go in dispassionately and examine some very tragic and horrible circumstances, make sense of them, put them together, give people answers, and give people a chance to go on living.
They have the two detectives that come into the room to talk some to somebody like yourself, and the work is going on, and who knows what's going on deep inside the body.
And inevitably, just for a fact, the Emmy reaches over and during the course of the conversation, grabs a sandwich, takes a bite, and goes back to work.
I do have to tell you, when I started in 1978 with Dr. John Coe, the Hennepin County Medical Examiner, I actually did see him smoke a cigar once down in the on-top store.
All right, I want to read you a quick story and get your take on this.
All right.
Here it is.
Frances Foster was pronounced dead at 2.20 p.m.
But three hours later, she came back to life.
This is a breaking story today.
Last night, as the Brooklyn woman remained in critical condition at New York Methodist Hospital, two EMT technicians were placed on modified duty while officials, I'm reading word for word from the story, while officials investigate whether they witnessed a miracle or made a mistake.
The EMTs, one of whom has 16 years experience on the job, pronounced the 77-year-old woman dead in her apartment Saturday afternoon, police said.
Source said the fact that she was extremely cold to the touch and that her seventh-floor apartment had a strong odor made it seem rather unlikely she could be alive.
When a coroner from the medical examiner's office arrived at 5.35 p.m., that's 5.35, folks, three hours cold and dead, he found Foster to have a faint pulse.
As he picked her up, it apparently started.
The quote here is the ME came in, lifted the body, and it caused a spontaneous heartbeat.
Foster's next-door neighbor reported her missing Saturday afternoon, police said.
She hadn't been seen in a while, police said.
It was not clear yesterday how long it had been since she had last left her apartment.
I have never heard of anything like that, and I've got to tell you, that would be any coroner's or paramedics worse nightmare to think that something like that would happen.
I think sometimes when people are extremely cold, their heartbeats can be very low or faint.
And, you know, they don't give us a whole lot of details about the rest of the story here.
Did she have a low blood pressure, a cardiac condition, et cetera?
Right.
But my goodness.
You know, everybody does their very best to make those assessments.
I don't want to bore my audience, nor you, so I'll keep this very short.
But I did a recent interview.
My mind is beginning.
I'm actually a very serious skeptic.
People who hear me do the show don't think so because I listen to all guests.
It doesn't mean I believe all that I'm hearing.
In fact, I'm skeptical about most of it.
And after death has been one of the more interesting areas of skepticism for me all my life.
And I had a lady named Pam Reynolds on the show.
48 Hours did a piece on her as well.
She had a brain aneurysm, a very bad brain aneurysm.
She was about to die.
And there wasn't anything they could do.
They couldn't operate.
So what they ended up doing in Arizona was they removed all of her blood, all her blood.
They stopped her heart.
They measured her brain activity, which went to zero, absolute zero.
They lowered her body temperature to achieve all this.
Then removed her blood, no EEG, no sign of life, no respiration, no eye movement, zero zilch.
By your definition, dead for an hour, doctor, for an hour.
And what they did is they went into her cranium.
Now, of course, no blood in the body, so the aneurysm was now deflated.
They simply clipped it, sewed her up, warmed her up, put the blood back in her body, put the paddles on her chest, and brought her back to life.
And Pam Reynolds came back with a hell of a story, I can tell you, a hell of a story.
She was able to document what went on during that hour that she was gone, what equipment was used, how people moved, what they said in the operating room.
Her doctor can verify all of this.
It's an incredible story.
So for one hour, Mrs. Reynolds was, she was dead.
In every way we can imagine, we measure death, she was, she was dead.
There's one little aspect of death that I certainly don't understand.
It's beginning, You know, hearing things like this, it's beginning to close the door on my skepticism, and I'm beginning to believe, and I'm a tough case, too.
I really am, despite what a lot of people think I'm a tough case, I'm starting to think there is absolutely life after death.
I am, first and foremost, a scientist, and I came at this with the education I had in medical school and everything that was taught to me in residency and fellowship.
And the stories, similar to what you have related to me, have really caused me to think.
I've heard them now for over 20 years, and at first would think about them and think, ah, I don't know what to make of this, and I would dismiss it.
This night, we are honored with the presence of Dr. Janice Amatusio, who is a recognized authority in forensic medicine, has developed many courses in topics like death investigation, forensic nursing, forensic medicine, and mortuary science.
Dr. Amatuzio serves as coroner and regional resource for multiple counties in Minnesota and Wisconsin, currently doing that work in ME.
And back in 1995, I had a case that was really one of those that really stood out in my mind.
It was the death of a 22-year-old man.
He was on his way home from a softball game.
It was about 1 o'clock in the morning.
It was in the summer.
He was on unfamiliar dark roads.
He evidently ignored a stop sign, and he collided with the side of a semi-boom truck.
He was driving a mid-sized car, and unfortunately, his car was wedged beneath that truck bed.
The driver of the truck was rattled, but he wasn't badly hurt.
And he called 911.
Paramedics arrived.
They found this young man, Greg.
He had no pulse, no respirations, and they pronounced him dead.
My investigator got to the scene and noted the severe head injuries and did what is according to our protocol.
He got the circumstances, did the scene investigation with the State Patrol, informed the mother of Greg's death, and sent the body in for an autopsy.
The autopsy was performed by one of my colleagues.
Now, the mother, who is a nurse, called several weeks later.
She had a couple of questions about the report, and me being the coroner, I called her back and had the chart in front of me, and she had a number of questions, and really regarding the extent of the injuries.
And so I went through those with her, and she asked that question that is always so hard to answer.
She said, did he suffer?
And I was able to tell her that from the extent of his injuries, I was quite certain he would have lost consciousness immediately and died shortly thereafter, and that he could not have survived his injuries.
And she started to cry.
She said, oh, I miss him so.
And he was so full of energy.
And she paused for a minute, and she said, Doctor, may I tell you something?
And these are such intimate, intimate conversations.
And I said, go ahead.
And she said, you know, I have two boys, Greg and another son.
And when they were young and I was working, I hired a babysitter, and her name was Sheila.
And she was with us for a number of years until the boys got a little bit older.
And then we drifted apart.
She says, I've not talked to Sheila for five years.
After Greg's death, she said, I received a card from her.
She's now out in California.
So she said, I called her.
And she said, what I heard, I cannot explain.
Sheila told me that on the night of Greg's death, she was awakened at 2 or 3 in the morning by what she can only describe as an inaudible voice.
And the voice said, hey, Sheila.
And she awakened, and Greg was standing next to her bed.
Do you think there's any possibility, Doctor, and this one's a real reach, that we will ever understand conclusively, beyond any question, even scientifically, that there is life after death?
And I wanted to, I was listening to you the other night, and I was thinking about two stories that I have heard that add an additional thought or a bit of gracefulness to what you have been speaking about.
And I think sometimes these stories that we hear make us aware of the power of our thoughts.
And I know on one of your shows you speculated on how powerful this is and how some of the coincidences seem to happen.
And it might just be the collective thoughts of all of your listeners.
I'd love to tell you a story about actually two stories that came to mind when I was listening to your show last week.
Fire away.
I had a case of a woman who came home, this was about seven or eight years ago, and she found her 45-year-old husband collapsed in a living room recliner.
And he was dead.
He was gone.
And she was stunned.
She called 911.
They talked her through CPR.
When the first responders got there, they attempted everything they could, but they pronounced him dead.
One of my investigators got out there to the scene, found out there was no significant medical history, and told the wife that he felt that an autopsy was in order, and she agreed.
And she had two young children.
I did the examination the next morning, and I found a very unusual tumor in this man's heart, something I had only read about in medical school.
And it was a pepillary sort of a tumor, and I really wasn't sure what it was.
And so I sent this specimen, with her permission, to a specialist, a cardiac pathologist that we have here in the Twin Cities area, and just to do a little extra study on it, to really determine what this was, because I'd never seen anything like it, actually, before or since.
And when we request special studies, sometimes it takes a week or two, or sometimes three weeks to get the results back.
And in this case, I delayed doing the death certificate until I had a specific cause of death.
Well, as you know, a death certificate is needed whenever we have to close out our legal affairs or do insurance or pay bills.
And this poor lady got more and more upset with me because the weeks were going on and there was no death certificate.
And she was upset, and I understood it.
And I also know that anger is one of those responses to grief.
When I got the report, it was about three and a half weeks later.
And I called her.
And I called her.
It was at work.
It was a Friday.
It must have been 20 after 5.
And she was still at work.
She was an accountant.
And she said, oh, so you're finally getting back to me.
And I said, you know, I'm really sorry, but it was really important for us to figure out exactly what happened.
So I told her that it was this papillary fibroelastoma, medical term, to the heart, and that a portion of that tumor had broken off and floated into the coronary artery and acted just like a blood clot.
It plugged the coronary artery and it precipitated a sudden abnormal heart rhythm, and this man had started to have an acute myocardial infarct or heart attack.
After I explained all that to her and the fact that it was not hereditary, that her children had nothing to worry about, she thanked me.
And she said, could I tell you something?
And what followed was one of the most astonishing stories because of the depth of it.
She said, you know, Doctor, this has been the worst thing that's ever happened to me in my life.
We have been married for 17 years, and we've never spent a night apart.
And we have two children.
She said, the first night after he died, I slept on the living room couch.
I couldn't even bear to sleep in our bed.
She said, the second night, I actually went to bed, but she said I couldn't sleep because I could smell him on the sheet, and all I did was cry.
On the third night, she said, I was exhausted.
And I shut the doors to my bedroom so as not to awaken the children with my sobs.
She said, I finally, after tossing and turning, fell asleep at about 3 a.m.
You know, it probably is rather unofficial, but I just, you know, practice a habit of always writing down my conversations because I never know when it's going to be important.
Well, of course, the explanation the skeptics would give in a case like this is simple, and that is that her own mind, of course, produced all of this as a protective mechanism for her to deal with her grief.
And I suppose if there was any way that, in fact, your loved one could come back to you or give you some message of solace, that would be the number one priority after dying, wouldn't it?
This is fascinating, albeit a bit morbid, but fascinating stuff.
And when you hear these stories, you will slowly begin to realize that maybe it's not all over when it's seemingly all over.
The End The CC Radio Plus is the best radio in the world.
Now, it is 100 feet, and then we'll sort of resume where we were.
Doctor, there was a story that ran on the Associated Press, oh, gosh, years ago now, not too many, though, where an NME, like yourself, opened up a body in an autopsy, and some incredible noxious gas began escaping from the body, and I think several of the people in the room passed out, and it was really, it was a big story.
I don't know whether you recall hearing about that or not.
And somebody else here is asking, you know, since it's your job, they're wondering, people have wondered for a long time about our brains.
Now, I know that's one thing in an autopsy you certainly look at.
And people ask about a serial killer.
People ask about an Einstein, somebody who's particularly brighter than somebody else.
Do you find any, in autopsies, any clues at all with regard to an examination of the brain that reflect on the person that, you know, the person's life that you were examining?
You know, with the exception of injury or tumor or a disease process that we can look at and track microscopically, I don't see any difference.
I don't see any difference in anyone who is kind or if anyone or in anyone who is violent, like you say, a serial killer.
What we can see and measure, and it may just be the limitation of our examination, is really looking at the tissue under the microscope, examining the chemical levels, and looking at the anatomy of it as well.
And I'm very good at, you know, as most forensic pathologists are, you know, documenting injuries and diagnosing disease.
And whenever we're at all at a loss, we will send them off to another specialist, a forensic neuropathologist, to help us as well.
But nothing specifically that you or anybody else in your field has really noted about, I don't know, somebody totally antisocial, you know, a multiple killer, a serial killer, something like that.
I just had my webmaster put up an article that's sort of been with me for years that people only believed as a myth.
And the article is up there, and you can read it during a break.
It's the first item, folks, under What's New.
And what it is, is it's an article that appeared in American Medicine in April of 1907 by a Dr. Duncan McDougall, M.D., of Haverhill, Massachusetts.
And if you read the article, what he did, doctor, was a meticulous study, which I guess you could do back in 1907 without problems, of people measuring, he actually measured people's weight, doctor, with their permission, I guess, at the instant of death.
And what he found was, you can read in there, I know this is wild, off-the-shelf stuff, but he found that there was a documentable three-quarter of an ounce loss in weight at the exact instant of death.
Now, fascinating, is right.
Now, I've got the study in American Medicine, very prestigious publication, on my website right now, so everybody can go see it.
But they documented this doctor, and I can understand that in this modern day, you'd never get away with doing that kind of study, you know, dying, huh?
Well, hop up here.
But is there anything that you can imagine?
And they accounted for bodily fluids and gases and all the rest of it.
I mean, it's all in the article there.
Is there anything that you could even think of that would explain the loss of, say, three-quarters of an ounce at the exact instant of death?
And, you know, you and I, and I'm sure so many of your listeners agree that these stories aren't new.
But whenever we can hear how it applies to living, I think that's probably one of the most valuable lessons we can learn from these.
And I have a story that I heard, you know, first person, when I was an intern some 20-some years ago that Was quite astonishing to me because of what this man had learned.
This was during the time when I was on 36 hours and off 12, and on 36, off 12, as many interns are.
I was internal medicine at the time, and I got called about 2:30 in the morning to restart an intravenous catheter in a man.
And I remember how very tired I was at 2.30 in the morning, having been up all day, you know.
I said to the nurse, oh, would you just hot pack his arm and call me back in a half hour?
And of course, that's the quickest half hour.
The nurse came in the room, not only awakened me, but turned the light on and said, get up now and go start that IV.
So I did.
You know, the nurses give you orders and you follow.
And so I remember going down the hall, and there's a certain intimacy to 3 a.m.
It was on a ward where each room had two beds, and his bed was the closest to the hall.
The curtain was drawn.
There was a little light, and I remember looking in on him, and this man was so swollen that my heart sank.
The only thing bright about him were his eyes, and his left arm was hot-packed, and I pulled the dressings off, and I began to palpate for a vein.
And as I was palpating intently, I have to tell you, I wasn't my usual perky, chatty self.
I was much quieter, and this man looked at me, and he said, I'm so sorry you had to get up.
And I said, that's okay.
You know, it's my job.
And a few moments went by and he said, you know, Doc, I died once.
Now, this was 1977.
This was before any of the movies, any, you know, Melvin Morse's books, any of that.
And I thought to myself, oh, I've got a wild one here.
I've got a live wire.
I don't know what this means.
I said, yeah, sure you did.
And he says, you don't believe me, do you?
And I said, I'm really not sure what to make of that statement.
And he said, well, let me tell you.
And he proceeded to tell me this astonishing story when he had had a filter put in his inferior vena cava because of all the blood clots in his legs that kept going through his lungs.
The surgery was long.
It was intensive.
And after the surgery, he was wheeled into the post-anesthesia recovery room.
And he said he can remember the nurse squeezing his shoulder and trying to awaken him and that he had trouble coming too.
And he said, the next thing that happened was that he says, Doc, I left my body.
See, that's the same thing I went through with Pam.
She could in infinite detail describe what people were thinking and doing with tools and medical instruments and what was moved around and what was said during this hour when she was dead.
There are many people like this, doctor, that for a period of time, though it begins to fade, but for a period of time after they're back, retain the ability to understand what others are thinking.
You know, I had a lady come into this office once who was so angry and so upset, and she was very difficult with our secretaries who are the first people they greet.
And I don't allow the people in my office to get abused.
And I took this lady in the room, and I talked with her.
And afterwards, I said to our secretaries, you know, we have to be, we can't let terribly bad behavior happen.
But remember, she's the one who lost her mother.
And that is so incredibly hard.
And usually, there was a man that came in and his wife had been sick for a long period of time, a number of weeks in the hospital of a disease that the doctors just didn't diagnose right away because it was unusual.
It was a vasculitis, an unusual disease called polyarteritis nodosa, which is a systemic, system-wide inflammation of the blood vessels.
And wherever the blood vessel is inflamed, it gives that symptom.
Like if it inflames the blood vessels around the spinal cord, you end up with paralysis, perhaps, or all sorts of different fleeting symptoms.
And she was a woman, his second wife, about 17 years younger than him, and he was furious.
He was certain that there had been a problem with the diagnosis and treatment.
And I did the autopsy, and I have to tell you, this man called almost every day, angrily, until all of the special studies had been completed.
And I decided to meet with him because I knew a phone call or a letter wouldn't be enough.
And he came into my office so he looked as angry as he was.
He was disheveled and unshaven.
And I brought him into our conference room, and we sat down.
And we must have spent an hour and a half going through the autopsy report, the chart, and finally we finished.
And he had no more questions.
And I looked at him and I said, how are you doing?
And he said, you know, I just can't believe this has happened to me.
He said, you know, this was my second wife.
My first wife died right after I had retired.
And along with that went all of my dreams for retiring and spending time together.
Of course.
And he said, I went to our church's grief group, and I met this lovely younger woman.
He said, you know, we had more fun.
He said, love is different with her.
He says, but we had a wonderful time.
He said, I sold my house.
We traveled up and down the country.
We did all of the things I never took time to do in the earlier part of my life.
And I never expected her to die before me.
And now she's gone, and I'm bereft.
And, you know, there was just something.
And, you know, I said to him, oh, I said, what a love.
I said, you know, I talk to so many people after the death of a loved one.
And it's so infrequent I hear somebody describe their spouse with such passion.
I said, you have really been loved.
And you have really loved.
I said, do you know how few people get to really do that, live full out and love with all their might?
And he looked at me and he just calmed down and he said, thank you.
Doctor, I've got a question here from Scranton, Pennsylvania.
I have this cute little computer next to me, and they can fire questions at me, which they do during the show.
We hear many stories of near-death, like the ones you've told, with relatives appearing, with people floating in operating rooms, even moving out and then coming back, and everything you said.
But what you don't hear and what people don't talk about are the lesser discussed bad experiences, those people who have had NDEs and have gone to not such nice places and have returned.
I have found people finding themselves in phenomenal places of light and coming back with some of them have come back and have changed their lives, have had the opportunity to look over their life and have changed them.
And sometimes, as Dr. Rachel Naomi Remon says, we just have to live in the mystery and maybe control what we can control.
And perhaps one of those things are our thoughts and our words and our actions.
And now, that's how I feel personally.
But, you know, what is fascinating is not that these things exist, but how we react to them and how they change our lives.
And most of the people who have had good experiences, and frankly, that is all that I have had the privilege of hearing about, have come back with a renewed sense of the power of love, of wanting to make the world a better place.
I had a sheriff in a rural county when I was meeting with him after we had had an elderly woman brutally murdered in her farm home, and the assailant had been caught and had pled guilty.
And I was meeting with the county attorney and the sheriff, and one of the detectives was sitting at lunch who knew I was working on my book.
And, you know, he casually said, oh, Doc, how's your book coming?
And, you know, that's just an absolute showstopper.
You know, they'd been talking about hunting and fishing.
And all of a sudden, I was caught in that uneasy feeling of treading on what I perceived to be the fringe.
And, of course, there's all that law enforcement type, healthy skepticism.
And I tried to get off the subject quickly when the sheriff of the county said, hey, Diane's not the big deal people make it out to be.
I drowned once.
And I thought, drowned.
He didn't say, you're going to be drowned.
He said, drowned.
And I wondered what really happened.
And the county attorney leaned over and said, well, you grew up on Clearwater Lake, didn't you?
The sheriff said, yes, my brother and I spent every waking moment of the summer swimming there.
He said, there was a lifeguard tower.
It had four legs, and each of the legs was like a ladder with rungs.
He said, when we were young, we'd just race to the bottom of the lake and back.
And when we got older, we would make it a little harder.
We'd swim in and out of the rungs.
And he said, one day he was on his way back, and he says, I was almost at the top, and I got stuck.
He patted his hips.
He said, there's a part of my anatomy that really got stuck.
And he says, I was wedged, and he said, I started to panic.
He said, I could look up, I could see the surface, and he said he saw his brother up there, and he saw his brother get the lifeguard and pull him out.
And the next thing he knew, he was on the bottom of a boat.
And I looked at the sheriff, and I thought, you know, I bet there's something more to this story.
And I said, Sheriff, do you remember anything else?
And he said, yes, but I don't usually talk about it.
And the county attorney said, go on, go on, sheriff.
What is it you want to say?
Sheriff took a deep breath and he said, well, what happened is as clear as if it happened yesterday.
He said, I was struggling and I thought I'm going to die.
What a dumb way to die.
He said, I took a gulp of water and I found myself up above the water.
He said there were beautiful colors.
I was calm.
I watched all of that frantic activity and I found myself racing along the surface and I could move by just thinking about it.
And then I was jolted back into my body and they were doing CPR.
And he said, you know, Doc, what was so interesting was that everything looked like it was in black and white.
It almost took me several days to get back to color vision.
He said, I wondered if things were just so stunningly vivid and bright there that everything here seemed a little dull.
And then he turned to me and he said, you know, Doc, I know you're the coroner.
I know you see death every day and it bothers lots of folks.
And as kids, we used to walk by that morgue on the way home from school, and we'd see the panel vans with the gurneys going in with the body bags and whatnot.
But as kids, we weren't really scared going by there.
It was kind of like we treated it as like a hospital, even though we knew these people weren't coming back to life.
The irony about that location, it was closed down and they moved facilities, but it became a haunted house for a time for a local radio station when Halloween.
We had the opportunity to walk through it, and it was definitely disturbing at that point because then we had memories of what this building served purpose.
Now it serves as a retirement home and nursing home.
So if you can imagine that the patients knew that.
My second point was I've also been with my mom and mother-in-law at the time of their passing.
And I think that's remarkable for anybody to experience death at first close at hand with loved ones.
But at both times, I felt at ease letting them go in the next life.
And my mother-in-law had told my wife not to worry because she believed this was her last time on earth, that she had lived many lives before, and that this was the time that she was not going to be coming back.
Now, the one last point I have, I've experienced deaths close at home with neighbors or friends, one of which was a neighbor across the street from where I lived, and I happened to come by the house, and the husband was out on the front stoop one Monday afternoon in the sun, and we were talking,
and then he eventually invited me in, and here's his wife laying in the front living room with a dog jumping all over her body, and he tells me that she had been laying there for two days, dead, and I asked why had the body still not been removed, and he said that the Seattle police had called the Seattle morgue, the King County morgue rather.
They had told him that they would get a funeral director in there, of which I called the SPD dispatch, and they said, no, he's to call for the funeral director.
But the morgue had issued a tow tag.
Now, my question, as well as this other point, I also had a landlady that...
Well, I'm going to get to it.
My former landlady died mysteriously one weekend, and her son had just appeared out of nowhere, and neighbors heard screams and whatnot.
And the officers at the scene both had questioned whether it was a homicide or natural cause.
But in both cases, these women were of elderly age, and the King County morgue issued toe takes, and both bodies were cremated before an autopsy was ever performed.
And I'm just wondering, is there not a law that autopsies are to be performed?
I'm not certain exactly what the rules in Washington are, but the general overall principles are that a death scene investigation is performed, a scene investigation, an investigation of the circumstances.
And if the manner of death is not explained by the scene investigation, or if there are any injuries to document or specimens to gather, then a post-mortem examination is Performed.
The King County office is highly respected.
Excellent work comes out of their office.
And I'm not familiar enough, and I don't know that you are either with all of the details, but I would surmise in the first case there was a miscommunication as to when the funeral director should be called.
And in the second case, perhaps the screams you heard were grief, because grief has many faces.
But I would dare say that after a thorough scene investigation, an investigation of the circumstances and her medical history, that they decided to release her without an autopsy.
And whenever there is cremation, there should be a death investigation, at least a discussion with the physician who was attending that person as to whether or not there was anything untoward, any accident or any reason not to cremate.
I have had several people call me, doctor, who have been with a loved one at the moment of death and have actually been over them, hugging them, holding them at the instant of death.
And I have been told by some fair number of people, doctor, that they actually, at the instant the person passed, they felt something move through them.
And a few years ago, I had a roommate, and we were outside, we were talking, it was late in the night, and he told this story about how he died.
And at that time in his life, there was a lot of bad things going on.
And he was on a lot of drugs at the time, but he had an overdose, and his heart stopped.
And he said that he felt himself just sucked out of his body faster than anything he could describe.
And that he ended up in this place.
And the only way he could describe it was complete darkness forever.
And that he was completely isolated, could communicate with nobody.
But out inside of this darkness, he could feel the presence of other souls out there, but no way to contact them, just complete and utter desolation and isolation.
And when he told me this story, it still brings chills down my spine.
And so I just wanted to share that with you.
I'm sure it's possible that you could say it was the drugs that did this, but I believe that he died and went to what he believes was hell.
Well, I suppose if you didn't want to quit your way of life, caller, you could say to yourself, it was the drugs and just plow right back into your life.
unidentified
Yeah, but I think he realized that it was more than the drugs because the way he told it, too, you know, I recount this story, but he said what I'm telling you right now is a millionth of what it actually felt like.
It's just, you know, words cannot describe the pure just terror and isolation of it.
So is in an NDE or a death experience, somebody who experiences evil, does that surprise you or has a very bad experience?
Now, people, of course, remember, coming back, as unlikely as you are to even talk about a good experience, You know, floating around the room, whatever.
You're much less likely to talk about meeting the horned one or something like that, right?
I mean, you're going to keep that one to yourself, probably.
I grew up in a small town close by here, Nevada City, a little old mining town.
And I had two friends that were like best friends.
We went through grade school and high school together.
And one's name was Dan, one's name was Rock Wendell.
And basically, we'd been partying at the California State Fair.
And then we went home.
I had my girlfriend.
I had to take my girlfriend to her house.
And she promptly snuck out of the house.
And we went to my house.
Well, at 1.29 in the morning, I remember because I looked at the clock.
I snapped awake out of a deep sleep because somebody was in my room.
And when I kind of in and out of the grogginess, I knew that it was Wendell and he was with somebody.
And Wendell was saying to whoever he was with that he didn't want to wake me up, didn't want to disturb me.
And the whatever he was with said, no, he won't mind.
He wants you.
And Wendell came up to me and said, goodbye.
And I got a really good feeling from the person or being or whatever it was that he was with.
And my girlfriend also woke up.
And she remembered something about Wendell being in the room.
And I went back to sleep.
Had to get up early to sneak my girlfriend back to her house.
Drove back home.
Went back to sleep.
At about 10 o'clock, my mom came in, woke me up crying, and said that Wendell and Dan had gotten a car accident, and Wendell was killed at 1.29 in the morning.
And I went from, like you said, a disbeliever or non-interest to a definite believer because I was a football player in the Army and everything, and I've been always serious about things.
I've also heard stories that people who don't experience an instant death or some tragedy or accident or murder or suicide, whatever, but people who die slowly and know that they're near death inevitably begin to report seeing people and sometimes loved ones, but as frequently as not, people they don't even know.
They just report seeing people in their hospital rooms, that sort of thing.
I actually had a nurse come up to me after one of my lectures and she had a twinkle in her eye and she said, you know, Doc, she says, those of us nurses who care for very sick patients know that when they start talking to people not in the room, that they're not going to be here much longer.
That's it.
That's right.
And she laughs.
And I said, yes, I just do wonder what that's all about.
You know, maybe they're just starting to see with different eyes, you know.
Hi, as a skeptic myself and an atheist on religious matters.
Of course, I'm just as scared of death as Art Bell is and most people, too, because I think death logically, rationally, is non-existence.
But of course, ultimately, it's the unknown, the fear of the unknown, and everybody, or most everybody, is frightened of the unknown.
But we must look at this from a scientific point of view using the scientific method.
And I have a little theory, a little hypothesis, I should say, better word than a theory, as to where we could both have it both ways, meaning there still could be an existence after death, say the mind.
I would not use the word soul, that's a religious-loaded word.
But let's say the mind, which is the thinking, feeling, emotions, and memory of the person, maybe could exist once the body dies without there being a God, without there being a creator.
If you'll bear with me, I'll say it briefly and then you can comment on this.
Let's say the mind is some kind of energy.
We know there are matter and energy, two basic forms of things in our cosmos.
If the mind is energy, if you want to use the term, I suppose, I don't know if it's valid, but intelligent energy, assuming that makes some kind of sense.
So that if energy, energy which cannot be created or destroyed, therefore once the brain and the body dies, the mind, which is energy, does not destroy, let's say, and keeps existing after the body dies.
But also, the mind, which is energy, does not have to be created.
Therefore, you don't need a God, certainly not a biblical God, to create the mind or the body or the brain for that matter.
So my point is simply, what do you think of the possibility or the concept, looking at it from as scientific as we can, from the year 2002 science that we have now, medical science, that maybe the mind or consciousness, which I like instead of the word soul, I'm saying again, could exist after the body dies.
And maybe we always existed, but we don't remember.
Maybe we always existed and we'll always continue to exist, but we just don't remember except maybe unconscious.
First of all, I think that that last caller was a pantheist, not an atheist.
Well, so am I. But I first just have a couple comments, and I want to ask a question, and I'll listen to it off the phone.
I'll turn my radio back on.
Sure.
I do a lot of reading about past life regressions and near-death experiences.
And the dark place that that caller described, where his friend had a near-death experience and went to a dark place and felt like he couldn't have any communication or contact with anything, that's been described by a lot of different sources and a lot of different people from various backgrounds as a place where you go to overcome grief and attachments that are no longer of use to moving on to the next place and that your perspective in that area
matters.
Like, who knows?
Maybe that's where the atheists go.
You don't believe in anything.
You don't get anything.
But in a lot of the reading I've done, it says that it's a place to overcome griefs and attachments.
And then the people, same people that you know or that you don't know, or people that even you feel like they know you, those could be people from past lives that you don't remember from your current incarnation or whatever, but that's why you seem to not know them, but they seem to know you.
This is a very, very sensitive topic, and it's one you don't have to broach.
You don't have to answer.
But there are a lot of people, you know, we have a lot of cancer.
We have a lot of really terrible ways, I suppose, to die.
And I think I know, and I think most or a lot of people in the country know that there comes a time in the treatment of a patient where pain control and the hastening of death become a very blurry line indeed.
And I've had personal experience with some of my friends who have passed who I know were given a pain medication that would likely result in their death.
And how common a practice, in your opinion, doctor, is that?
We investigate all the deaths of individuals in hospice.
And one of the problems for us as scientists and forensic pathologists is that when pain medications such as morphine are given over a long period of time, individuals get a remarkably increased tolerance to pain, so, or excuse me, increased tolerance to the medication, so that their levels are extremely high.
And it's sometimes very hard for us to determine whether that was an overdose or a deliberate overdose or just a result of a pretty hazy line, isn't it?
Yeah, and so 11 hours, I had to hover out of my body.
It hurt so bad I couldn't stand it.
And I could sense the whole room full of, well, anyway, I could sense the whole room full of entities, people sitting beside, you know, as in intensive care, people sitting all around everybody, and there were more astral than physical.
Anyway, I didn't have time to concentrate on that around me because every time the machines, the EKGs and the EEGs went flat, I had to wait a while.
And then once they started getting nervous, I had to switch my toe and it just pulled me right back in my body.
The pain was so intense.
And I had to do that.
Finally, the doctor found out what it was.
They shipped up some medication from Tucson, some anti-venom, at the medical labs they were experimenting with.
The first one didn't work, so they had to use the other one.
It was a goat's blood, but I could finally get back into my body, and the doctor came in and shook my hand, and that really put me back in intense pain.
He said, I made his day because he was just farting around on the computer and figuring it out, and it made his day.
We were talking about that earlier, that people that don't go in some instant way do seem to begin to see others around them, not even necessarily loved ones or relatives, but others.
And this is a pretty frequent report to the point where people in hostels, you know, for those who are dying, as the doctor said, once they say they're starting to see people, they know they're very close to death.