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Feb. 11, 2002 - Art Bell

02:35:20

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Janis Amatuzio - The Compassionate Coroner - Death And Hereafter

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01:01:19

janis amatuzio

57:34

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		News.
		It had been in restricted airspace.
		It was pretty cool to see.
		Well, so they're not taking any chances up in Salt Lake, of course.
		And it would be a likely target, wouldn't it?
		Now, gee, we've got this big warning, and we've got the Olympics going on.
		Let me see.
		Big warning.
		Olympics.
		Big warning.
		Olympics.
		Could there be a connection?
		Well, of course, they're not going to say anything about it, but I'm sure they're thinking there could be.
		Check this out.
		Acme, this is from Newsmax.
		Acme Red-A-Car.
		There really is an Acme Red-A-Car, but it was just in cartoons.
		A Connecticut-based car rental company has been ordered by state officials there to stop tracking its customers by satellite.
		Acme installed GPS on all of its rental cars in an effort to prevent speeding.
		Acme began tracking customers with a GPS unit in 2000.
		Any customer who exceeded 79 miles per hour for at least two minutes was then fined $150.
		I didn't even know they were doing it.
		I had no idea they were doing that.
		I mean, I know about what is it, Lojack, I think, a system that can locate a stolen car, but I had no idea they were actually monitoring the speed of people who rent cars.
		Gee, that's a new one.
		All right, break, and we'll be right back.
		I've got quite a bit more here.
		There's so much interesting stuff going on in the world.
		How's your back?
		My back is absolutely, well, you know about my back, right?
		It's a disaster area.
		And the thing that will help you if you have a bad back is an air mattress.
		I wonder how many of you know about air mattresses, really high-quality air mattresses.
		Well, Select Comfort, a company that's advertised here before, makes a really, really high-quality air mattress.
		The fact of the matter is, 80% of all of you out there at some point in your lives will experience back pain, and it's horrible.
		There probably isn't anything worse.
		And there'll be a lot of contention about that, but I tell you when your back is out, Select Comfort provides a bed that is so good, so high-tech, that either side of the bed can be set precisely in a way to cause you to have the best night's sleep in your whole life.
		So if you have trouble sleeping, and I'm the king of that category too, this bed is what you want.
		Not only that, but it's so high-tech that when you find the precise setting that is right for you, and that's so, I can't even begin to stress how important that is, a number comes up, and that's the memory.
		In other words, it remembers exactly the way you like your bed.
		So if you ever change it, you just put the number back, and your exact setting comes back.
		You have a setting for your side.
		Your partner has a setting for her side, his or her side, depending on who I'm speaking with right now, I guess.
		And everybody wins.
		It's an incredible bed.
		Absolutely an incredible bed.
		So if you've got a bad back, if you're having trouble sleeping, then I guarantee, I guarantee this is the answer for you.
		The Sleep Number Bed by Select Comfort uses adjustable air chambers that will let you set up each side of the bed exactly the way you want it.
		And then this smart bed remembers the way you wanted it.
		This is so cool.
		Call them at 1-800-985-7100.
		That's 1-800-985-7100.
		You know what they'll do?
		They will send you a free video and a brochure.
		It's much easier to see what I'm talking about than it is for me to tell you about it.
		So they offer this free video and a brochure.
		You can read about it, and you can slam a video into the VCR, and you can decide if it's for you.
		And if you've got a bad back, it's for you.
		Trust me.
		Their number again is 1-800-985-7100.
		Now, if you would like to begin to virtually get younger as you sleep on that nice bed, then listen to me very carefully because there is something new in the world.
		There's HGH, human growth hormone.
		And at first, in the first 10 weeks, you will experience the feeling of being 10 years younger than you are today.
		Then as time goes on, though, the physical changes begin.
	The wrinkles that were deepening begin to not be so deep, and you haven't put any cream on at all.
	All you do is take this orally.
	It's not like the shot in the stomach that the other HGH is.
	This you take orally.
	And I guarantee you will begin to see physical differences in yourself.
	Aside from the skin, your immune system is going to get stronger.
	Your vital organs, which you cannot see, will begin to regenerate.
	You'll have more energy.
	You'll notice your vision is getting better.
	That's right.
	Your vision getting better.
	Your memory improving.
	Mood elevation stronger.
	Bones, all the things that we associate with youth.
	Human growth hormone causes your own body to manufacture more of your own HGH.
	So it's safe and it works.
	If you want to try it, it's about $33 a month from Great American Products.
	It's called HGH, Ultimate HGH.
	Call them and get some on the way at 1-800-557-4627.
	That's 1-800-557-4627.
	Well, well, well, well, check this out.
	Apparently, our schools here are not the only ones having problems, mold problems all across the country, and now rash problems across the country as well.
	I read you a story last week, and now a mystery rash that seems to have infected up to 40 students, mostly girls, at Abraham Lincoln Elementary School in Medford, Oregon, might, they think, be related to A viral infection known as slap cheek disease.
	Slap-cheek disease.
	We want to say it's not serious at Medford dermatologist David Trask.
	It's our opinion that this could very well be viral.
	At first, six dermatologists and one general practitioner thought the children were suffering from some sort of eczema.
	But Trask said, quote, I think these kids have more than just eczema.
	So something he wanted to assuage the parents' fears and said that it could be something, it probably is not something worries, certainly not anthrax, he said.
	And so these children have something.
	I'm seeing more and more every day I get more and more of these stories of a mysterious this, a mysterious that, lashes, things, odd diseases that we haven't seen before, things that the scientists just can't figure out, more and more and more of that sort of thing.
	Here's something that we talk about with a couple of guests that verifies what they were saying.
	You may recall Richard C. Hoagland mentioned that one of our satellites out there, one of our deep space probes, was actually being slowed by some mysterious force.
	Now listen to this article.
	Mysterious force holds back NASA probe in deep space.
	A space probe launched 30 years ago has come under the influence of a force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the laws of physics.
	Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up pictures of Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 83, is being pulled back to the sun by some unknown force.
	The effect shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels deeper into space.
	Scientists are considering the possibility that the probe has revealed a new force of nature.
	A new force of nature.
	So as we travel into deep space, something begins pulling us back.
	Oh my, what could that be?
	If the effect is real, according to Dr. Lang, it will have a very big impact on cosmology and spacecraft navigation.
	I wonder if that means that we can't leave.
	I mean, really leave.
	That there is some force of nature that we so don't understand that it would actually disallow us to go to deep space to travel to some other star, perhaps.
unidentified		That's incredible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so is this.
		Frances Foster was pronounced dead at 2.20 p.m.
		But three hours later, she came back to life.
		You heard me.
		Three hours later, she came back to life.
		You've got to hear this.
		And last night, as the Brooklyn woman remained in critical condition at New York Methodist Hospital, two emergency medical techs were placed on modified duty while officials investigate whether they witnessed a miracle or made a mistake.
		BEMTs, one of whom has 16 years experience on the job, pronounced the 77-year-old woman dead in her apartment Saturday afternoon.
		Police said a source said the fact that she was extremely cold to the touch and that her seventh-floor apartment had a strong odor made it seem rather unlikely she could be alive.
		When a coroner from a medical examiner's office, like my guest tonight, arrived at 5.35, however, he found Foster to have a faint pulse.
		They rushed her to Methodist emergency room.
		Emmy came in, lifted the body, and it apparently caused a spontaneous heartbeat.
		Foster's next-door neighbor reported her missing Saturday afternoon, police said.
		She hadn't been seen in a while, police said.
		It was not clear yesterday how long it had been since she had left her apartment.
		Police arrived.
		They found the woman's body, called an ambulance.
		EMTs arrived less than two minutes later and pronounced her dead.
		Source said police at the scene, also believing she was dead, called for a supervisor.
		Mike Prindegast, a fire department spokesperson, said that two EMTs will be placed on modified duty pending an internal review by the State Health Department.
		They will not be permitted to treat patients, he said, but what may have happened there, as they admitted earlier in the article, is a miracle.
		It could have been a miracle.
		I mean, if the body has, well, ask the ME we're going to have on tonight.
		But if there's a bad smell coming from the body and it's dead cold, most of us would make, I'll tell you, I've got a lot to say on this subject.
		I'm doing a lot of thinking about it lately.
		Listen to this.
		Men may be redundant.
		The article says, men redundant.
		Now we don't need women either.
		Doctors are developing artificial wombs in which embryos can grow outside a woman's body.
		The work has been hailed as a breakthrough in treating the childless.
		Here we go.
		Scientists have created prototypes made out of cells extracted from women's bodies.
		Embryos successfully attached themselves to the walls of these laboratory wombs and began to grow.
		However, the experiments had to be terminated after a few days to comply with the in vitro fertilization regulations, IVF regulations.
unidentified		Yikes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		According to Dr. Ching Lu of the Cornell University Center for Reproductive Medicine, we hope to create complete artificial wombs using these techniques.
		Women with damaged uteruses and wombs will be able to have babies now for the first time.
		The pace of progress in the field has startled experts.
		Artificial wombs could end many women's childbirth problems.
		They also, of course, raise major ethical headaches, which are going to be debated at a major international conference titled The End of Natural Motherhood.
		Question mark.
		That'll be in Oklahoma next week.
		The organizer of that said there are going to be real problems.
		Some feminists even say artificial wombs mean men could eliminate women from the planet and still perpetuate our species.
		That's a bit alarmist.
		Nevertheless, this subject raises strong feelings.
		It raises strong feelings in me, too.
		First, it was the whole thing about artificial insemination and semen, and pretty soon there'd be feminists out there who don't need men.
		Remember all that?
		Remember the big brouhaha over all that?
		Well, now you might not need women either.
		In an artificial womb, it's kind of like being born in a test tube, really, isn't it?
		How far are we from the year 25, 25, when your arms, if I recall, hang limp at your side?
		Something about the child you choose being plucked from the bottom of a long black tube.
		I have to remind myself of those words.
		But is that what they're talking about here?
		Don't need many women anymore.
		Don't need women anymore.
		Don't need parents anymore.
		You just need a place.
		These really are wild times.
		Place your order now.
		Would that be blonde?
unidentified		Oh, blue eyes?
		Okay.
		Don't frown.
		Sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The radio station that sets the standard for News Talk in Chicago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		News Talk 89 WLS.
unidentified		I'm Tom Hubert with the SCUPULS News update brought to you by InsureOne.
		Fed up with high insurance premiums, then call InsureOne, the insurance superstore.
		They represent over 60 different companies and save you as much as 20%.
		Call 1-800-I-N-S-U-R-E-D or check yellow pages for locations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Scump ULS traffic.
		Happen Stevenson.
		The exit at the Dan Ryan blocked with Road War Tail One this morning.
unidentified		In the year 45, 45, we're going to keep walking in your eyes.
		You won't find a thing with you.
		Nobody's gonna look at you.
		In the early 55, 50 five.
		Your hornbang and lift back your cry.
		Your legs got nothing to do.
		Come to me doing that for you.
		In the beginning, take me by, pick me by.
		Ain't gonna need no husband, no need, no wife.
		You make your son, take your daughter too.
		From the bottom of the long battle, that's how it went.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		Reachart at 1-775-7722.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the Toll-Free International line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. with Ark Bell from Bart Kingdom of Nive.
		Going ahead and missed it by about 4,000 years or so, huh?
		Sounds like now, doesn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I knew the words were something like that.
		You've known Dan Aykroyd since Saturday Night Live, the Blues Brothers and the House of Blues, but did you know he's got a deep interest in UFOs?
		You can read about Dan in the February issue of the After Dark newsletter.
		You'll find out about his interest in the NASA UFO cover-up.
		And yes, there is evidence that UFO activity has been seen at NASA.
		Also, read about the future of nanotechnology, real-life stories of levitation.
		Find out who tried to levitate the Pentagon.
		Yes, the Pentagon.
		It's all in the February issue of the After Dark newsletter.
		If you haven't subscribed yet, it's a good time to get on board.
		Call right now.
		1-888-727-5505.
		And you'll get two free issues, 14 for the price of 12.
		That number, again, 1-888-727-5505.
		Or subscribe online at artbell.com.
		Hit the library link to the secure server to order the one and only After Dark newsletter.
unidentified		I love you.
		Do you know if you qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit?
		Well, if you have kids, you should find out because it's for people who earn around $32,000 or less.
		Have kids and meet from 10061-53133.
		That's 1-800-61-53133.
		Or go to www.getmask.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, back into the night we go, or should I say, into the night we go.
		But lies between now and the top of the hour when we're going to have the speaker for the dead.
		I wonder if she'll object to that term.
		That's what coroners really are.
		That's what forensic people really are.
		They speak for the dead because the dead cannot or can no longer.
		Or at least, let me modify that.
		Up until fairly recently, they weren't supposed to speak for themselves.
		Dr. Janice Amatusio.
		For now, two open lines.
		And the wildcard line is on the air.
		Hi, you're on the air.
unidentified		Good morning, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		This is Brandy in East Tennessee again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Brandy.
unidentified		All right.
		First of all, before I get to what I actually call for, I want to throw in this real quick.
		I heard on Dennis Mother Live, he had a comment about the Enron miss.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And he wanted to know why none of the execs had the coconuts to lie under oath.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, everybody's had lots of practice watching previous scandals take place, and so they all know how it's done now.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, you cannot recall.
		I cannot recall.
		That's a key phrase there.
		I can't recall.
		You're not exactly in trouble or out of trouble if you say I can't recall.
unidentified		I'm sure you are.
		That smells like a lie.
		Yes, it does.
		Anyway, the article you were talking about last week about the human evolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How is evolution finally over?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was in the London Observer.
unidentified		Right.
		Yes.
		And I gave some thought to that.
		And I think that human evolution itself has not stopped, but maybe the factors that influence it have changed.
		And it's not all about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, then.
		Let's go with that for a second.
		If the factors that influence evolution have changed, then in what way do you see us evolving?
unidentified		Well, here's where, here's, this is GC.
		You're going to love this.
		Here's what I think.
		What may happen five or ten generations from now in the Western world, we may have like two classes of humans.
		We'll have smart, beautiful people and stupid, ugly people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, they'd be the poor ones then, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The stupid, ugly people would be the poor ones.
unidentified		Right, they'd be the lower class.
unidentified		But can't you see that happening five or ten generations down the road?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I can.
		I mean, that goes with the other story that I had tonight as well.
		In other words, they don't need men.
		They don't need women.
		They just need like this artificial womb they've got.
		The only reason that this didn't continue and become a child was because by law they were required to stop it.
		But oh my God, look where we're headed.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		It was awfully scary as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Aye, yi.
		Well, I guess change always is.
		But, you know, I'm with you.
		It's kind of scary.
unidentified		I can see that.
unidentified		That popped into my head almost immediately after.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How old are you?
unidentified		I'm 27.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		27.
		Well, I'm a good bit older than you are, and it scares me.
		And normally I would say it's probably just my age showing.
		No, huh?
		All right.
		Appreciate the call.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Randy.
		It is enough to scare anybody, huh?
		Where we're headed.
unidentified		That is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I find the argument compelling.
		I don't know that I buy it totally, but the question is, is human evolution finally over?
		And the scientist bases his theory on the fact that in the West we have eliminated the process of natural selection.
		Natural selection, of course, being basically the strong survive, the weak do not.
		And so the genome is enriched, and we continue to change and become stronger.
		Now, of course, we're very compassionate here in the West, and we do.
		We save people.
		We keep people alive who would normally never, never, never be able to continue to live without heroic medical techniques that we have now.
		And so you could make that case.
		Now, it could be all wrong, and this young lady could be exactly right, that the factors influencing evolution have changed, therefore we will become something else, simply something else.
		Maybe we'll kind of merge with computers somehow.
		We're slowly doing that now anyway.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, sir.
unidentified		Friday evening, a lady called you from Alaska.
unidentified		This is Harvey from Memphis, Tennessee, by the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Harvey.
unidentified		She called and asked about the earthquakes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And you couldn't remember where you had heard that from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I had some fast blasts that told me there were two earthquakes there.
unidentified		Okay, well, it was Vincent Blord that made that prediction.
		Okay.
		The levitator.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Okay, he's the one that did that.
unidentified		Now, the other thing, have you heard about the weird sounds that have been going on in Kokomo, Indiana?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, actually, not just Kokomo, over a much wider area.
unidentified		Is that right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I'm hearing, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What have you heard?
unidentified		Well, the only thing, I heard this about 10 days ago, and I've been trying to get back in with you because there hasn't been anything on our news or in our paper about it, but I heard it on Paul Harvey that they even asked the government to get involved in trying to help them locate the noise because the government wouldn't get involved.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, the government may be making the noise.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Well, the other thing, right quick, the FBI in New York called our offices here the other day and informed us that there would be five Arabs coming down to buy driver's licenses from a member of the Tennessee Highway Patrol here in Memphis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, sir.
unidentified		And they sat back and waited, and sure enough, the five came in and handed a lady a bunch of papers.
		No conversation or anything involved.
		And they sat back and waited until she filled out the driver's license and handed them to them.
		And then they arrested her and the five Arabs.
		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, there's another story I haven't heard a thing about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Well, it won't get in the paper.
unidentified		And I wondered to myself, how many times each week is this happening across the country in different cities?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know, but I'll give the FBI this.
		Thank you very much.
		They weren't on it before.
		They sure seem to be now.
		And, boy, it's like we're almost in lockdown in some ways.
		The Olympics, pretty much in lockdown.
		They certainly are coming off well.
		I've been watching a little bit of the Olympics.
		I particularly love women's figure skating or figure skating in general.
		Actually, both sexes, you know, couples.
		I like figure skating.
		There's a very beautiful thing about well-executed figure skating.
		And so I enjoy that.
		But oh, it's a lockdown.
		And it's pretty much lockdown across the country for most things.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Ert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hi.
unidentified		Morgan in Boulder City.
unidentified		How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boulder City, just over the hill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir, fine.
unidentified		All right, good deal.
unidentified		Hey, you know, I'll stand by you tooth and nail if anyone wants to argue about what's the worst kind of pain, because the pain, amen, is far the worst.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, those who have not had it just simply don't understand.
		Those who do know that it ruins you as a human being.
		I mean, that's what it's to it.
		It just ruins you.
		You can't move, you can't do it.
unidentified		Everything hurts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
unidentified		Oh, man.
unidentified		Anyway, I wanted to talk about that Oxford glitch over Salt Lake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		I was wondering if the EMAP say it was like something blasted from the sky.
unidentified		Is that how it was put?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you referring to the radar return stuff?
		They're just, in other words, apparently the weather people there are seeing returns on their radar that don't match up with anything in the sky.
		And so, you know, that obviously indicates there's something in the air or the sky there that they don't understand.
		You can take it from there.
unidentified		Yeah, and like you were saying before the bottom of the hour about the new terror alert and the Olympics, you know, maybe, you know, I have no way to back this up, maybe it's like a mass inoculation for a chemical weapon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I tell you, anything is possible.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, after 9-11, I'm prepared to believe almost anything can happen.
		Thank you.
		And, you know, our government would not be doing its job if it did not take extraordinary safety measures and precautions for us.
		That is, after all, what they are there for.
		To protect the constituents, that would be all of us.
		And so you can bet they're doing it.
		They appear to be doing a pretty good job of it, too.
		So far, so good.
		I mean, the FBI really seems to be full-time on this.
		And really, so far, since 9-11, you've got to give them a pretty good rating overall.
		They get a pretty good rating.
		What we've done militarily, pretty good rating.
		What they've done domestically, pretty good rating.
		The tendency, of course, is to go a little bit overboard, and I'm sure there's going to be, I've already given you an instance or two of that, but generally, you've got to say that our government has been doing a fair to middle and job here in protecting us since 9-11.
		Wild Card line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Hi.
		Thank you, Phil, from Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I saw an infomercial tonight, and I'm not going to name a company, but I thought you'd be the person to ask about this.
		Okay.
		They were talking about people who live very, very old and without wrinkles.
		And they mentioned certain areas of Japan, and they specifically mentioned Okinawa.
		And I remember that you'd lived there for a long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Decades, sir.
unidentified		And they say that the one thing in common that these people ingest is something called coral calcium from the coral from the sea.
unidentified		Is that anything that you ever knew about when you were in Okinawa?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but I probably ate a lot of it.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		I'm not looking at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you a little story about how I ate when I was there that might amuse you, Sarah.
		I spent a year, a year, a decade, or better than a decade, on Okinawa, and first in the Air Force at Kadena Air Force Base on Okinawa.
		And then following that, working for the only commercial English-speaking broadcast station in the Far East, KSBK.
		In fact, I got an email from somebody who had some tapes from KSBK on Okinawa.
		And I wrote back to them and asked, with me on it, and I wrote back and asked and begged they send me copies, and I hope I get them.
		If I do, I'll play them for you.
		It's remarkable stuff.
		Anyway, Okinawa was a kind of an interesting place.
		And I lived when I went back in Naha, which is the main city, capital city was of Okinawa.
		And now a prefecture, actually.
		The island is a prefecture of Japan.
		But it wasn't then.
		At any rate, I lived as a civilian.
		You know, once I came back and I was no longer associated with the Air Force, I liked it so much I went back.
		Then I had to sort of live as a Japanese person at Okinawan would live.
		And that means that I had to eat mostly what they would eat.
		And so the only way you could do it would be to go into a restaurant, and they had many of those.
		And all the menus were put on little strips of paper that would hang from above the counter.
		And of course not knowing how to read Kagani at that point, and certainly not Kanji, still can't read Kanji, what I was forced to do would be I would go into the restaurant and I would just look at the pieces of paper, not knowing what any of them meant, and I would point at one of them.
		And they would bring me stuff.
		Now, sometimes there was stuff in this bowl that, you know, like you wouldn't recognize.
		Floating stuff.
		Stuff like teeth.
		Not really teeth, I suppose, but you know, you never quite tell exactly what it was.
		It was floating in there.
		And sometimes you'd get rice, which was always easy and good.
		And sometimes you'd get other things that were indiscernible.
		But you ate them, you know.
		And instead of starving to death, you ate them.
		But that's the way we had order until I learned.
		And, you know, I made friends and I began to learn which strip to point to.
		West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
		Hello.
		Hello there.
		Going once, going twice, going first-time caller line.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		My name is Leonard.
unidentified		I am calling from Portland, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Leonard.
unidentified		On the mighty KEX 1190.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, and you're a first-time caller?
unidentified		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		I am calling about a picture that I discovered in one of your old issues of After Dark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		This picture has got me doing flip-flops.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it?
unidentified		First of all, I've been a science fiction fan for 40 years.
		I've seen every movie, all the pictures of alleged aliens, all the documentaries, all the alleged interviews.
		I've never seen anything that remotely looked real until I looked in this issue of After Dark.
		And there's no caption.
		There's no information on it, but it is the real thing.
		I have never seen anything like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is the issue of After Dark?
unidentified		It is December 1996 Volume 2, number 12.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Volume 2, number 12.
unidentified		It's on page 5.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Dead Center.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't have that for immediate reference here, but I'm sure it's a photograph we probably had up on the website at one point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll try and get to that issue, find the photograph, and take a look myself.
unidentified		That would be great.
unidentified		I'd love to hear any information that you or anybody else can throw out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm sure that I talk about it at the time, sir, but 96, that's a long time ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to have to, as the witnesses would say, refresh my memory.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Looking at this, though, you know how someone can see something and they'll describe it to someone else, they'll describe it to somebody else, down the line, everything gets bigger.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And the drawings of the gray's eyes are so big these days.
		But looking at this picture, I can see where, down the road, everything gets exaggerated.
		This looks like what would have to be a gray from Roswell.
		It's just got to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, if there's not reality behind, thank you very much, if there's not reality behind these pictures and depictions we see of grays, then something curious to wonder about is where it all got started.
		Suppose the whole thing is nonsense.
		Suppose the whole thing about aliens is nonsense, and all of the photographs and the pictures and the renditions and the, you know, people have told us about seeing these creatures, these aliens.
		Suppose all that is hogwash.
		Then where do you suppose all of this got started?
		And how did a gray become popularized?
		As a matter of fact, if you look at my webcam photo, I think it's on there.
		Let me see which one I took today.
		Tonight.
		You know, as you know, Rush Limbaugh had a statue of an alien, which blew me away when I went to his studio in New York at WABC.
		Absolutely blew me away.
unidentified		I went in there and I said, what is Rush doing with this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why would Rush have this here?
		And I got some chuckles, and my wife left, I think, a $20 bill in the alien's hand.
		And it was this gigantic five-foot-high wood-carved alien.
		And, oh, what is Rush doing with this?
		And so time went by, perhaps a year, and Rush bequeathed it to me.
		He sent it to me.
		We were doing a thing down in Los Angeles, you know, a talk radio type thing.
		And they presented this thing to me on stage.
		And if you look at my webcam photo, it's at artbell.com, on the right-hand side, past my smiling face, on the right-hand side, you will see this gray alien.
		Now, you don't see all of it.
		There are arms and legs and all the rest of it, but you will see this alien with gigantic black eyes, absolutely a gray, no question about it.
		Where do you suppose all of this got started?
		If there's not some germ of truth, was it some science fiction writer that began all this?
unidentified		And then did the stories build from there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or is there just too much, I guess it's got to be called anecdotal evidence, to ignore that they really are out there?
		East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Hey, Steve from the Virgin Islands calling you back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Steve.
unidentified		Hey, how's it going?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Hey, listen, I want to plant it in your ear again, Art, about this decision you've made to not do these experiments anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not an absolute decision, Steve, but it's a decision to wait a little bit and to think it over.
unidentified		I know, I know.
		But let me just say this real quick.
		How about instead of thinking about actually affecting something, why don't we all, as listeners, decide on creating an event?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, because it's a Steve, the same thing.
		Now you've got your radio on in the background, and I've got to go anyway because we're about to do a break at the top of the hour and then the speaker for the dead.
		But I don't see the difference whether we create an event or we attempt to manipulate the weather or we do any other mass mind experiment.
		I really feel like we're tampering with things that we don't even begin to understand.
		I certainly don't.
unidentified		A very old friend came by today Cause he was telling everyone in town All the love that he just found And the reason they are the way it's From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
		He taught and taught, and I heard him say That he had the longest bucket there The prettiest green guy anywhere And the reason ain't for the gladest flame Hmm.
		So I smiled and tears inside were burning.
		I wished him luck and then he said goodbye.
		Goodbye.
		The End
		To rechart Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I think Speaker for the Dead is just a fine term for what Dr. Janice Amatuzio does.
		Janice Amatuzio MD trained at the University of Minnesota and the Hempen County Medical Center and the Medical Examiner's Office in Minneapolis, Minnesota before founding the Midwest Forensic Pathology PA Board, certified in atomic and atomic, forensic and clinical pathology.
		She is a recognized authority in forensic medicine, has developed many courses in topics like death investigation, forensic nursing, and forensic medicine in mortuary science.
		Dr. Amatuzio serves as coroner and a regional resource for multiple counties in Minnesota and Wisconsin.
		Dr. Amatusio, often called the compassionate coroner, is an exemplar for the compassionate practice of forensic medicine.
		As someone whose life's work has been speaking for the deceased, there you are.
		She has now also provided a voice for family and friends by allowing their stories to be heard in her new book called Forever Ours.
		coming up in just a moment All right, here comes Dr. Janice Amatuzio.
		Doctor, welcome to the program.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Thank you so much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's great to have you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I am in Anoka, Minnesota, just to the northwest of the Twin Cities area.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it really cold up there?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's really windy, and it's kind of warm.
		It's about 33 degrees.
		We're lucky it's not below zero.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that is warm in that area.
		Is that an unfair phrase?
		I said Speaker for the Dead.
		I once read a book, one of my favorite books called Speaker for the Dead.
		Didn't relate exactly to forensic anything, but it just works so well, it seems to me, for what you do.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		That's an excellent way to put it.
		We really do speak for the dead, and that's an old phrase.
		They say because the dead can no longer speak for themselves.
		But I think the importance is who we speak to.
		And we have to speak to law enforcement, to physicians, to the county attorneys, but most of all to the families.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		May one ask, in medicine, doctor, how does one decide or become impassioned, you know, to take the road to what you do?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, you really just have to follow your heart.
		I had an opportunity to do a rotation at the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office with some of the great physicians, Dr. John Coe, Dr. Cal Bant, Dr. Kenny Osterberg.
		And I saw them solving puzzles and solving mysteries, and it just got me so very excited.
		I knew that was my chosen work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they run specials on TV, and I can't remember which network, but autopsies and mysteries that are solved by people just like yourself in ways that are so, so incredibly astounding.
		I mean, it is amazing, I guess, what the body of a person can tell you about what happened to them.
		Is that right?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the truth.
		And, you know, when I started this, it was long before many of those wonderful shows that are on now were on.
		We still had Quincy back then, but it is fascinating because death investigation, in its essence, is an investigation of a life.
		And every life is different.
		And we get the opportunity to take an intimate look into a person's life.
		Not only do we examine the body, but we examine the death scene.
		When we get to see how a person lived, when we get to look at their clothing, what's in their pockets, their refrigerators, their wastebaskets.
		And then we get to look not only outside the body, but inside the body.
		Talk with their friends, talk with their families, and try to answer the question of what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		You can, I guess you can tell, what can you tell about a person?
		I mean, aside from, you know, the criminal aspect of how they might have been died or murdered or something, just in a normal autopsy, what kind of things can you reveal to you about the way that person lived?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, we start with the outer surfaces of the body, and everything we do says something about ourselves.
		Everything we do is a decision.
		For example, what type of clothes we wear, whether we choose to drink while we drive, whether we choose to have a tattoo.
		I can remember a case I did where a man actually had a wonderful tattoo right on his belly button.
		It said, oil here, and he was a mechanic.
unidentified		You're kidding.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, you really can tell something about a sense of humor.
unidentified		Oil.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		You know, you can tell an awful lot.
		And, you know, and then when you get into the internal aspects of a body, you can begin to see how a person lived, if they've destroyed their lungs with cigarette smoking or, you know, whether or not they've eaten diets that are high in sugar and fat and have some of the hardening of the arteries, all those cholesterol problems, or whether they're fit.
		It really is an examination of the choices of our lives.
		We don't always die as we live, but when we die, and when we die suddenly or unexpectedly or from violent causes, the medical examiner, the coroner, becomes involved, and we have to do some explaining.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's HBO that does the series.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I would imagine that you have seen it.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it good work?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		It's excellent work.
		I thought so.
		You know, these death investigators are always so much more attractive.
		And they always get the story solved in an hour or so.
		But actually, the work that they've done on autopsy and explaining to the public has been absolutely phenomenal.
		I've seen such a change since the O.J. Simpson case, where the whole world had the opportunity to see how death investigation works.
		And it's been a time where I think the public has become educated.
		They have now more expectations of excellence in forensic medicine as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think that we understand, or at least the general public, a great deal about the process of death itself.
		It's something most people cringe about and don't want to talk about.
		And I would imagine that, I mean, when you bring up what you do in social circles, how does that go over?
		Sometimes not as well as you'd hope, I suppose.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Well, sometimes it's an absolute conversation.
		And of course, though, there's this incredible fascination with death.
		And what we do is so public that many times people say, oh, so you handled such and such a case.
		And I'll say, yes, I did, but you know, I can't really talk about it.
		Not the specifics of it.
		But the comment I get most frequently is, how do you do that work?
		How do you do that work and not get depressed about it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can I ask that?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, for one thing, you really feel like you're making a difference.
		In order for people to get on with living, they have to grieve.
		And in order to grieve, they have to have answers.
		And what we can do is to go in dispassionately and examine some very tragic and horrible circumstances, make sense of them, put them together, give people answers, and give people a chance to go on living.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so you work with it every day, so you're used to the dead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In every movie that I've ever seen, Doctor?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They have the two detectives that come into the room to talk some to somebody like yourself, and the work is going on, and who knows what's going on deep inside the body.
		And inevitably, just for a fact, the Emmy reaches over and during the course of the conversation, grabs a sandwich, takes a bite, and goes back to work.
		Any truth in that?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		No, absolutely not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I've always wanted to ask that question.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I do have to tell you, when I started in 1978 with Dr. John Coe, the Hennepin County Medical Examiner, I actually did see him smoke a cigar once down in the on-top store.
		But that is not done at all anymore.
		We're now in all of our no-smoking zones.
		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I want to read you a quick story and get your take on this.
		All right.
		Here it is.
		Frances Foster was pronounced dead at 2.20 p.m.
		But three hours later, she came back to life.
		This is a breaking story today.
		Last night, as the Brooklyn woman remained in critical condition at New York Methodist Hospital, two EMT technicians were placed on modified duty while officials, I'm reading word for word from the story, while officials investigate whether they witnessed a miracle or made a mistake.
		The EMTs, one of whom has 16 years experience on the job, pronounced the 77-year-old woman dead in her apartment Saturday afternoon, police said.
		Source said the fact that she was extremely cold to the touch and that her seventh-floor apartment had a strong odor made it seem rather unlikely she could be alive.
		When a coroner from the medical examiner's office arrived at 5.35 p.m., that's 5.35, folks, three hours cold and dead, he found Foster to have a faint pulse.
		As he picked her up, it apparently started.
		The quote here is the ME came in, lifted the body, and it caused a spontaneous heartbeat.
		Foster's next-door neighbor reported her missing Saturday afternoon, police said.
		She hadn't been seen in a while, police said.
		It was not clear yesterday how long it had been since she had last left her apartment.
		Have you ever heard of anything like this?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I have never heard of anything like that, and I've got to tell you, that would be any coroner's or paramedics worse nightmare to think that something like that would happen.
		I think sometimes when people are extremely cold, their heartbeats can be very low or faint.
		And, you know, they don't give us a whole lot of details about the rest of the story here.
		Did she have a low blood pressure, a cardiac condition, et cetera?
		Right.
		But my goodness.
		You know, everybody does their very best to make those assessments.
		That doesn't mean it's foolproof.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you give me the official what you would say officially or what conditions would have to be present for you to declare somebody dead?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		No pulse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No pulse.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		No respirations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No respirations.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		No corneal reflexes.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		In other words, no blinking, no response to pain.
unidentified		Right.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And when we begin to see post-mortem signs, no blood pressure, the settling of the blood in the dependent portions of the body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you had the ability, what about a dead EEG?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No brain activity, zero?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Well, that, of course, is the exact criteria they would use in the hospital.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And that would be something a neurologist would use when they go through the criteria for pronouncing brain death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that is dead.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but you see, in the hospital, you have all of the other tools that you can use.
		Out at the death scene, or the scene where the paramedics were, they're not going to have the advantage of an EEG.
		They're going to be able to put the paddles on and see that there may not be any detectable heart rate.
		And I guess I'd like to know if they had those tools available to them or if they were just doing this by feeling for a pulse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I don't want to bore my audience, nor you, so I'll keep this very short.
		But I did a recent interview.
		My mind is beginning.
		I'm actually a very serious skeptic.
		People who hear me do the show don't think so because I listen to all guests.
		It doesn't mean I believe all that I'm hearing.
		In fact, I'm skeptical about most of it.
		And after death has been one of the more interesting areas of skepticism for me all my life.
		And I had a lady named Pam Reynolds on the show.
		48 Hours did a piece on her as well.
		She had a brain aneurysm, a very bad brain aneurysm.
		She was about to die.
		And there wasn't anything they could do.
		They couldn't operate.
		So what they ended up doing in Arizona was they removed all of her blood, all her blood.
		They stopped her heart.
		They measured her brain activity, which went to zero, absolute zero.
		They lowered her body temperature to achieve all this.
		Then removed her blood, no EEG, no sign of life, no respiration, no eye movement, zero zilch.
		By your definition, dead for an hour, doctor, for an hour.
		And what they did is they went into her cranium.
		Now, of course, no blood in the body, so the aneurysm was now deflated.
		They simply clipped it, sewed her up, warmed her up, put the blood back in her body, put the paddles on her chest, and brought her back to life.
		And Pam Reynolds came back with a hell of a story, I can tell you, a hell of a story.
		She was able to document what went on during that hour that she was gone, what equipment was used, how people moved, what they said in the operating room.
		Her doctor can verify all of this.
		It's an incredible story.
		So for one hour, Mrs. Reynolds was, she was dead.
		In every way we can imagine, we measure death, she was, she was dead.
		Where was she for one hour?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Sounds to me like she was watching the procedure.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, she was.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		That is just fascinating.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Now, that is just fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's one little aspect of death that I certainly don't understand.
		It's beginning, You know, hearing things like this, it's beginning to close the door on my skepticism, and I'm beginning to believe, and I'm a tough case, too.
		I really am, despite what a lot of people think I'm a tough case, I'm starting to think there is absolutely life after death.
		Do you have any thoughts on that?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I do.
		I've got to tell you that I am a skeptic as well.
		I am, first and foremost, a scientist, and I came at this with the education I had in medical school and everything that was taught to me in residency and fellowship.
		And the stories, similar to what you have related to me, have really caused me to think.
		I've heard them now for over 20 years, and at first would think about them and think, ah, I don't know what to make of this, and I would dismiss it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Most of the people in your line of work won't talk about this at all.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		They won't.
		They won't say a word about it.
		And they tend to think that those of us who do, may be a little out in the fringe.
		I've got to tell you, it's taken me a while, kind of taking this huge leap from my mind to my heart to even be able to talk about them.
		But I am a documenter.
		A forensic pathologist is basically a historian.
		We document the stories, the medical history, the bullets, the stab wounds, the cardiac disease.
		And when I talk with families or law enforcement during a case, I document everything I hear.
		I put it all together and come to a conclusion.
		And for me, what has happened is in the course of this documenting, I have heard some hard to believe, incredible stories.
		And when I'd hear one, I'd think, hmm, that's interesting.
		But when I put them all together, well, it was hard to ignore.
		They really had the ring of truth to me.
		And to tell you the truth, I used to just hope, but now I believe that life goes on in ways we just can't even explain.
		I saw a wonderful quote by Albert Einstein, and he said, the most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.
		And I think we all have a tremendous curiosity about this, and in some ways, almost unknowing.
		But I have heard some unusual stories that I do not know how to explain, that I didn't ask for, that just have happened in the course of my practice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you've been doing this how long now?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Since 1978, about 24 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a long time.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we've got a break coming up.
		When we get back, I would very, very much like to hear some of those stories.
		It sounds as though you and I are in very much the same sort of evolution of thinking about death.
		It's happened to me just by doing this program and interviewing people like Pam Reynolds and many, many others.
		Pam Reynolds was just sort of the clincher for me.
		But, you know, this is a relatively big story.
		Maybe, you know, the biggest story in the entire world, whether or not our mortal existence is all there is.
		Doesn't get any bigger than that, does it?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's it.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		That is the ultimate question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold it right there.
		I've always said that.
		It really is the ultimate question.
		That's why we deal with it a lot here on this program.
		I'm Ardell from the High Desert.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast A. My body's weak.
		I won't run, don't dance to me.
		I've got to run, fight like the wind, to be free again.
		I've got to run, fight like the wind, to be free again.
		The heart of the beauty streets meeting.
		I bring the beyond turn to darkness with you and do things.
		sleeping You cannot be full.
		I'm glad you got away at night till the morning die.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To reach Art on the Toll-Free International line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This night, we are honored with the presence of Dr. Janice Amatusio, who is a recognized authority in forensic medicine, has developed many courses in topics like death investigation, forensic nursing, forensic medicine, and mortuary science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Amatuzio serves as coroner and regional resource for multiple counties in Minnesota and Wisconsin, currently doing that work in ME.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, welcome back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your book is forever ours, right?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why that title?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		You know, I chose that because it really shows my belief that our loved ones are always with us and that maybe we just simply go on and on.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I've really come to that conclusion after the stories I have heard over the years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Stay close to the phone for me and remind, not remind me, because I haven't read the book yet.
		Sort of give us all a little idea of what began to convince you.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		May I tell you a couple of the stories that I have heard?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Because that's really what started me on this track.
unidentified		Please.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Our office investigates deaths.
		And back in 1995, I had a case that was really one of those that really stood out in my mind.
		It was the death of a 22-year-old man.
		He was on his way home from a softball game.
		It was about 1 o'clock in the morning.
		It was in the summer.
		He was on unfamiliar dark roads.
		He evidently ignored a stop sign, and he collided with the side of a semi-boom truck.
		He was driving a mid-sized car, and unfortunately, his car was wedged beneath that truck bed.
		The driver of the truck was rattled, but he wasn't badly hurt.
		And he called 911.
		Paramedics arrived.
		They found this young man, Greg.
		He had no pulse, no respirations, and they pronounced him dead.
		My investigator got to the scene and noted the severe head injuries and did what is according to our protocol.
		He got the circumstances, did the scene investigation with the State Patrol, informed the mother of Greg's death, and sent the body in for an autopsy.
		The autopsy was performed by one of my colleagues.
		Now, the mother, who is a nurse, called several weeks later.
		She had a couple of questions about the report, and me being the coroner, I called her back and had the chart in front of me, and she had a number of questions, and really regarding the extent of the injuries.
		And so I went through those with her, and she asked that question that is always so hard to answer.
		She said, did he suffer?
		And I was able to tell her that from the extent of his injuries, I was quite certain he would have lost consciousness immediately and died shortly thereafter, and that he could not have survived his injuries.
		And she started to cry.
		She said, oh, I miss him so.
		And he was so full of energy.
		And she paused for a minute, and she said, Doctor, may I tell you something?
		And these are such intimate, intimate conversations.
		And I said, go ahead.
		And she said, you know, I have two boys, Greg and another son.
		And when they were young and I was working, I hired a babysitter, and her name was Sheila.
		And she was with us for a number of years until the boys got a little bit older.
		And then we drifted apart.
		She says, I've not talked to Sheila for five years.
		After Greg's death, she said, I received a card from her.
		She's now out in California.
		So she said, I called her.
		And she said, what I heard, I cannot explain.
		Sheila told me that on the night of Greg's death, she was awakened at 2 or 3 in the morning by what she can only describe as an inaudible voice.
		And the voice said, hey, Sheila.
		And she awakened, and Greg was standing next to her bed.
unidentified		Wow.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		She was stunned.
		And she said that Greg appeared distraught.
		And she did what she always did for him.
		She comforted him.
		And she said, what's wrong?
		And he said, I'm so upset that I've caused my family such distress.
		And then suddenly, he was gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		But three nights later, Sheila, and Sheila didn't do anything, didn't call anyone.
		She said, her bedroom filled with a gentle light.
		There was a presence.
		She woke up, and Gregory was standing by the bed.
		And this time, he was calm, he was clear.
		And he said to her, would you tell my mother that I am fine, that I love her, and I am with Vernie now?
		Now, I'm talking to the mother, and she said, Doctor, what do you think this means?
		And I said, well, who is Vernie?
		Because I've got to tell you, as I'm writing this down, the hairs are standing up on my arms.
unidentified		Sure.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And she says, well, Vernie is my mother.
		She said, my mother died two years before Greg was born.
		And she says, and Doctor, that's not all.
		She said, Greg visited his girlfriend, Trish, three nights after his death as well.
		Trish awakened.
		Gregory was there.
		He appeared calm.
		And she said to him, are you okay?
		And he said, yes, I am not alone.
		There are so many people here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And she says, doctor, well, what do you think this means?
		And, you know, I'm real well aware that I am an appointed county official.
		And if I start doing dream interpretation, I won't have a job for very long.
		And I said, well, Mrs. Berry, I said, what do you think this means?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A good answer.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		That is the most important thing is what this means to you.
		And she said, well, to tell you the truth, doctor, at first I didn't know.
		But now I am very peaceful.
		It's given me hope.
		She said, I know that we will meet again soon.
		And she said, as a matter of fact, she said, my husband and I put on his gravestone the words, we will meet again one fine day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was pretty astonished by that story, and I remember thinking, hmm, I wrote it all down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, Doctor, I do serious ghost shows in which all we do is tell ghost stories.
		And if I tell you, I have heard so many that approximate that story that you just can't believe it.
		Or maybe you can.
		I just, it is getting to the point where it's no longer possible to ignore.
		And the meaning of it, well, as we said at the bottom of the hour, it's the biggest story in the world.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think there's any possibility, Doctor, and this one's a real reach, that we will ever understand conclusively, beyond any question, even scientifically, that there is life after death?
		Do you think that will ever occur?
		Science will ever get to that threshold?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I don't know that we're ever going to get to it scientifically, but I think there are three levels of awareness about everything.
		And I think the first one is hope, the second one is belief, and the third one is knowing.
		And I think that those people who have experienced this go from hope to knowing in a way that many of us don't even understand.
		You know, recently you have been talking about the power of our thoughts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you have been listening.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I have been listening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		All right.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I've been holding my eyes open and balancing my radio on the bed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're exactly right, yeah.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And I wanted to, I was listening to you the other night, and I was thinking about two stories that I have heard that add an additional thought or a bit of gracefulness to what you have been speaking about.
		And I think sometimes these stories that we hear make us aware of the power of our thoughts.
		And I know on one of your shows you speculated on how powerful this is and how some of the coincidences seem to happen.
		And it might just be the collective thoughts of all of your listeners.
		I'd love to tell you a story about actually two stories that came to mind when I was listening to your show last week.
		Fire away.
		I had a case of a woman who came home, this was about seven or eight years ago, and she found her 45-year-old husband collapsed in a living room recliner.
		And he was dead.
		He was gone.
		And she was stunned.
		She called 911.
		They talked her through CPR.
		When the first responders got there, they attempted everything they could, but they pronounced him dead.
		One of my investigators got out there to the scene, found out there was no significant medical history, and told the wife that he felt that an autopsy was in order, and she agreed.
		And she had two young children.
		I did the examination the next morning, and I found a very unusual tumor in this man's heart, something I had only read about in medical school.
		I'd never seen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A tumor in his heart?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		In his heart, in the left ventricle of his heart.
		And it was a pepillary sort of a tumor, and I really wasn't sure what it was.
		And so I sent this specimen, with her permission, to a specialist, a cardiac pathologist that we have here in the Twin Cities area, and just to do a little extra study on it, to really determine what this was, because I'd never seen anything like it, actually, before or since.
		And when we request special studies, sometimes it takes a week or two, or sometimes three weeks to get the results back.
		And in this case, I delayed doing the death certificate until I had a specific cause of death.
		Well, as you know, a death certificate is needed whenever we have to close out our legal affairs or do insurance or pay bills.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And this poor lady got more and more upset with me because the weeks were going on and there was no death certificate.
		And she was upset, and I understood it.
		And I also know that anger is one of those responses to grief.
		When I got the report, it was about three and a half weeks later.
		And I called her.
		And I called her.
		It was at work.
		It was a Friday.
		It must have been 20 after 5.
		And she was still at work.
		She was an accountant.
		And she said, oh, so you're finally getting back to me.
		And I said, you know, I'm really sorry, but it was really important for us to figure out exactly what happened.
		So I told her that it was this papillary fibroelastoma, medical term, to the heart, and that a portion of that tumor had broken off and floated into the coronary artery and acted just like a blood clot.
		It plugged the coronary artery and it precipitated a sudden abnormal heart rhythm, and this man had started to have an acute myocardial infarct or heart attack.
		After I explained all that to her and the fact that it was not hereditary, that her children had nothing to worry about, she thanked me.
		And she said, could I tell you something?
		And what followed was one of the most astonishing stories because of the depth of it.
		She said, you know, Doctor, this has been the worst thing that's ever happened to me in my life.
		We have been married for 17 years, and we've never spent a night apart.
		And we have two children.
		She said, the first night after he died, I slept on the living room couch.
		I couldn't even bear to sleep in our bed.
		She said, the second night, I actually went to bed, but she said I couldn't sleep because I could smell him on the sheet, and all I did was cry.
		On the third night, she said, I was exhausted.
		And I shut the doors to my bedroom so as not to awaken the children with my sobs.
		She said, I finally, after tossing and turning, fell asleep at about 3 a.m.
		I awakened at 4 a.m. to the sound of footsteps.
		She said, I sat up.
		I was wide awake.
		I thought, oh my goodness, are my kids up?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		When she said, through the door walked her husband.
		She said, it was dark, but he just glowed.
		He smiled.
		He walked over to the bed.
		And she said, Doctor, we talked for such a long time.
		We talked about the future and our children and the finances and that land in Wisconsin that I've been waiting for that darn old death certificate on.
		She said, you know, I felt so calm and so reassured and I didn't want him to leave.
		And she said, what he said to me will last a lifetime.
		She said, he was sitting on the bed next to me.
		He had his hand on my shoulder.
		And he said to her, Our love will be forever.
		And whenever I need him, to just think of him.
		And my thought would send him rushing to my side.
unidentified		Wow.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And then he told me that I would feel his presence many times in my life in many ways.
		And that he would be there to help guide me and the children.
		And she said, Doctor, I mean, I was writing like crazy, and I was just astonished.
		Just your thought of me will send me rushing to your side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you wrote down even this sort of thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you would think this would be something that, I don't know, would be so unofficial that you just wouldn't think to write it.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		You know, it probably is rather unofficial, but I just, you know, practice a habit of always writing down my conversations because I never know when it's going to be important.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I'm not writing this one down, are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Feel free.
		That's quite all right.
		There's plenty of people transcribing it out there, believe me.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Let me tell you the rest of this.
		She says, she was overwhelmed, and she said, you know, my husband and I always slept together like spoons.
		And I knew immediately what she meant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		She said, as far-fetched as this is, she said, Doctor, he then laid down in bed next to me, wrapped his arms around me.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I felt the weight of his body and the warmth of his body, and I slept soundly and contentedly for the first time since his death.
unidentified		Wow.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I was just.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you respond to that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you say?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I was just overwhelmed.
		And actually, the tears were rolling down my cheeks.
		It was late.
		My secretary had left.
		I thought to myself, nothing in medicine has ever prepared me for this.
		And I have to tell you, I thought, what if it's true?
		I mean, what if it's true?
		If this is true, just think of the power of our thoughts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, the explanation the skeptics would give in a case like this is simple, and that is that her own mind, of course, produced all of this as a protective mechanism for her to deal with her grief.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		And what I say to the skeptics is, you know, that not everything that counts can be counted.
		Not everything that's meaningful can be measured.
		And to this lady, this was the world.
		This was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Her husband was the world, yes.
		I understand that.
		I have a soulmate as well.
		We spoon.
		That's the only way we sleep.
		So, of course, I understand.
		And it's unthinkable to lose somebody like that.
		And I suppose if there was any way that, in fact, your loved one could come back to you or give you some message of solace, that would be the number one priority after dying, wouldn't it?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, it would.
		And, you know, these occurrences seem to be the thing that maybe begins the healing.
		I've sometimes said that maybe grief is like a big wound.
		You know, it hurts.
		It gets our immediate attention.
		And we really just don't know how we heal.
		But, you know, even physicians don't even know how wounds heal, but we know that we do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't know how wounds heal.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		We don't know why.
		We can measure them, but what causes them to heal, it's still, it's just kind of our body's, you know, natural wisdom.
		And I sometimes wonder if we just don't kind of echo that with our grief.
		And these stories really seem to have a healing effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course they do.
		Of course they do.
		Now, again, that story, a skeptic would certainly say.
		It was a protective mechanism in her mind doing that.
		But there were too many contemporary things discussed.
		I mean, financing, even the death certificate itself and what that was holding up.
		All right.
		When we get back, I have a study which I would like to discuss with you a little bit, done back in the late 1800s, I think, or early 1900s.
		We're at a break point, so relax and we'll be right back.
unidentified		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stay right there.
		Dr. Janice Amatusio is my guest.
		Emmy, we'll be right back.
unidentified		Dripping of a sea of heartbreak.
		Trying to keep myself ashore for so long.
		For so long.
		Listening to the strangest stories.
		Wondering where it all went from for so long.
		For so long.
		Hold on, hold on, hold on.
		Do what you got.
		Hold on, hold on.
		Short bell in the Kingdom of Nye.
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		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With the Reaper's diagnostician, Dr. Jennis Amatusio.
unidentified		The song says, 40,000 men and women every day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is fascinating, albeit a bit morbid, but fascinating stuff.
		And when you hear these stories, you will slowly begin to realize that maybe it's not all over when it's seemingly all over.
		The End The CC Radio Plus is the best radio in the world.
		Now, it is 100 feet, and then we'll sort of resume where we were.
		Doctor, there was a story that ran on the Associated Press, oh, gosh, years ago now, not too many, though, where an NME, like yourself, opened up a body in an autopsy, and some incredible noxious gas began escaping from the body, and I think several of the people in the room passed out, and it was really, it was a big story.
		I don't know whether you recall hearing about that or not.
		Do you?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I do recall hearing about that, and I don't recall knowing what the answer to that was or if they ever figured out what that was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, right, exactly right.
		That's the same position I was left in.
		It is like they told the story and went, oh my God, what was that?
		And then there was never any follow-up.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And you know, in the forensic literature and at the meetings, I have never heard that case discussed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Never.
		Very interesting.
		You know, there's a lot we don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess there is a lot we don't know.
		And somebody else here is asking, you know, since it's your job, they're wondering, people have wondered for a long time about our brains.
		Now, I know that's one thing in an autopsy you certainly look at.
		And people ask about a serial killer.
		People ask about an Einstein, somebody who's particularly brighter than somebody else.
		Do you find any, in autopsies, any clues at all with regard to an examination of the brain that reflect on the person that, you know, the person's life that you were examining?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		That's an interesting question.
		You know, with the exception of injury or tumor or a disease process that we can look at and track microscopically, I don't see any difference.
		I don't see any difference in anyone who is kind or if anyone or in anyone who is violent, like you say, a serial killer.
		What we can see and measure, and it may just be the limitation of our examination, is really looking at the tissue under the microscope, examining the chemical levels, and looking at the anatomy of it as well.
		And I'm very good at, you know, as most forensic pathologists are, you know, documenting injuries and diagnosing disease.
		And whenever we're at all at a loss, we will send them off to another specialist, a forensic neuropathologist, to help us as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But nothing specifically that you or anybody else in your field has really noted about, I don't know, somebody totally antisocial, you know, a multiple killer, a serial killer, something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No real physical differences noted?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		You know, maybe there will be somebody else that can answer that question.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		But from my standpoint, and I've performed, you know, a lot of autopsies, I have not seen any difference.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's something I would like to say.
		Do you have Internet access?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where you are?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you able to get to my website?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I did on Sunday, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You did on Sunday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then you'll make it again tonight.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, I will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just had my webmaster put up an article that's sort of been with me for years that people only believed as a myth.
		And the article is up there, and you can read it during a break.
		It's the first item, folks, under What's New.
		And what it is, is it's an article that appeared in American Medicine in April of 1907 by a Dr. Duncan McDougall, M.D., of Haverhill, Massachusetts.
		And if you read the article, what he did, doctor, was a meticulous study, which I guess you could do back in 1907 without problems, of people measuring, he actually measured people's weight, doctor, with their permission, I guess, at the instant of death.
		And what he found was, you can read in there, I know this is wild, off-the-shelf stuff, but he found that there was a documentable three-quarter of an ounce loss in weight at the exact instant of death.
		Now, fascinating, is right.
		Now, I've got the study in American Medicine, very prestigious publication, on my website right now, so everybody can go see it.
		But they documented this doctor, and I can understand that in this modern day, you'd never get away with doing that kind of study, you know, dying, huh?
		Well, hop up here.
		But is there anything that you can imagine?
		And they accounted for bodily fluids and gases and all the rest of it.
		I mean, it's all in the article there.
		Is there anything that you could even think of that would explain the loss of, say, three-quarters of an ounce at the exact instant of death?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Well, nothing is coming to mind that I could answer scientifically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought not.
		I'm dragging you down paths here that are kicking and screaming, I might add.
		So during a break, go to artbell.com if you can.
		Read this study for me and sort of give me a reaction to it maybe at the next top of the hour break or something.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I will.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You have other stories.
		A man who died following some sort of procedure on his chest?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
		I have an interesting story.
		And, you know, you and I, and I'm sure so many of your listeners agree that these stories aren't new.
		But whenever we can hear how it applies to living, I think that's probably one of the most valuable lessons we can learn from these.
		And I have a story that I heard, you know, first person, when I was an intern some 20-some years ago that Was quite astonishing to me because of what this man had learned.
		This was during the time when I was on 36 hours and off 12, and on 36, off 12, as many interns are.
		I was internal medicine at the time, and I got called about 2:30 in the morning to restart an intravenous catheter in a man.
		And I remember how very tired I was at 2.30 in the morning, having been up all day, you know.
		I said to the nurse, oh, would you just hot pack his arm and call me back in a half hour?
		And of course, that's the quickest half hour.
		The nurse came in the room, not only awakened me, but turned the light on and said, get up now and go start that IV.
		So I did.
		You know, the nurses give you orders and you follow.
		And so I remember going down the hall, and there's a certain intimacy to 3 a.m.
		It was on a ward where each room had two beds, and his bed was the closest to the hall.
		The curtain was drawn.
		There was a little light, and I remember looking in on him, and this man was so swollen that my heart sank.
		The only thing bright about him were his eyes, and his left arm was hot-packed, and I pulled the dressings off, and I began to palpate for a vein.
		And as I was palpating intently, I have to tell you, I wasn't my usual perky, chatty self.
		I was much quieter, and this man looked at me, and he said, I'm so sorry you had to get up.
		And I said, that's okay.
		You know, it's my job.
		And a few moments went by and he said, you know, Doc, I died once.
		Now, this was 1977.
		This was before any of the movies, any, you know, Melvin Morse's books, any of that.
		And I thought to myself, oh, I've got a wild one here.
		I've got a live wire.
		I don't know what this means.
		I said, yeah, sure you did.
		And he says, you don't believe me, do you?
		And I said, I'm really not sure what to make of that statement.
		And he said, well, let me tell you.
		And he proceeded to tell me this astonishing story when he had had a filter put in his inferior vena cava because of all the blood clots in his legs that kept going through his lungs.
		The surgery was long.
		It was intensive.
		And after the surgery, he was wheeled into the post-anesthesia recovery room.
		And he said he can remember the nurse squeezing his shoulder and trying to awaken him and that he had trouble coming too.
		And he said, the next thing that happened was that he says, Doc, I left my body.
		And I remember going, yeah, right.
		How did you do that?
		And he said, right through the top of my head.
unidentified		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And he said, yes.
		And he said, and you know the most amazing thing was I could hear the thoughts of everybody in that room.
		He said, I felt the enormous concern of all of the nurses and the anesthetists that came running over.
		I saw the doctor come rushing over, and I felt his anguish and panic.
		And he said, I went down to the doctor.
		That was up near the ceiling now.
		And by now, of course, I've got the IV in.
		I've got it taped.
		But I'm all ears.
		I'm listening to this man.
		And I said, well, what happened?
		He says, I went down to the doc and I said, listen, I am just fine.
		I'm okay.
		And he said, the doc couldn't hear me.
		And he says, I actually went around the front of him and I tried to stop him.
		He said, I looked down on my body.
		I felt so sorry for it.
		And he said, the next thing that happened was amazing.
		He said, the guy in the bed next to me, he had a cardiac arrest.
		And I said, don't tell me.
		He left through his head, too.
		And he goes, yep.
		And was he surprised to see me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So here they are both floating.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		They're both floating.
		He says they're both looking down.
		And he said, you should have seen the confusion in that PAR.
		He said they had only one crash cart.
		They used up all the medications on me.
		They were rushing to get another crash cart.
		And he said, I got to tell you, he said, I could hear everybody's thoughts.
		He said there was even one nurse that was really irritated that all of this had happened because she had a hot date right after work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, that's the same thing I went through with Pam.
		She could in infinite detail describe what people were thinking and doing with tools and medical instruments and what was moved around and what was said during this hour when she was dead.
		There simply is no...
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		These are things that happened, irrefutably occurred.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this is beginning to change my mind.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it changes the whole way of thinking.
		I mean, maybe life is perfectly safe, you know?
		Let me tell you the rest of this story.
		By all means.
		He said, when the two of them got so frustrated, they couldn't communicate with any of those who were resuscitating them.
		He said, you know, we just decided to leave.
		And I said to him, and how did you do that?
		I said, did you go through the door?
		And he said, no, Doc, we went through the wall.
		And I said, and how did you do that?
		He said, Doc, we thought our way through.
		And he says, I was in the waiting room, and I could feel all of the love that the people, the families had for those of us in the PAR.
		I felt this tremendous compassion.
		And then he said, we just thought our way right outside the hospital.
		I remember looking back and seeing the red brick and mortar.
		And he said, when we got outside, he said it was quiet.
		It was still.
		But he said it was warm.
		He says, I can't describe it.
		And he said, and off in the distance, I saw the most magnificent light.
		He said, no, maybe it was love.
		But he said, we both were just drawn to it.
		We rushed to it.
		And he said, I found myself in this swirl of magnificent colors and lights I've never seen before.
		He said, I saw my family members who had died.
		I saw my dog.
		But he said, more importantly, I remembered the purpose of my life.
		I remembered how it worked.
		And I was stunned at the loving kindness that surrounded me.
		He said, at some point, I was aware of my companion.
		And he said, but then I became aware that I couldn't stay.
		And Art, even though this happened some 20-some years ago, this next part I remember like it was yesterday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That I couldn't stay.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		That I couldn't stay.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		He said, the other guy, and I said, yes, he said, the other guy, he got to go on, and I had to come back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does he remember how this maybe there aren't words you can put to it, but I mean, was it in some way related to him?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		He said that he was made aware that he had to go back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was it just an understanding?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		It was annoying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Annoying.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		It was annoying.
		But he said when he got back, he said he was so overwhelmed with peacefulness.
		He said it was hard to be back in his body, and there was a lot of pain.
		But he said he was so overwhelmed that he didn't even speak of the experience for days, weeks.
		He said the first time that he mentioned it was to his doctor about a month later.
		And his doctor flat out didn't believe him.
		He said, it must have been the medication.
		He said, the nurses had to have told you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that what they always say?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It had to be told to have the medication.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And this guy said, it wasn't a reaction.
		He said, it was the most real thing that has ever happened to me.
		The doctor said, you were dead.
		You were dead and gone.
		You were gone for 15 minutes.
		And this man said, I know.
		I watched you.
		And the guy said, impossible.
		You were unconscious.
		And a few minutes passed, and this patient said to me, you're the first person I've ever told that whole story to.
		And I said, I am so honored.
		And even then, I said, what did this mean to you?
		Has this changed your life?
		Because I think that's what we're all really asking.
		And he said, I'm not afraid to die.
		It's the most magnificent thing that's ever happened to me.
		And he said, doctor, I know that love is what counts, not things.
		And I've learned, I have found out that I'm supposed to learn something each day and apply it because wisdom is knowledge applied.
		And my goal is to live as well as I can and to make the lives of others better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's almost universally what those who have had near-death or death experiences say.
		They say, I'm not afraid of death.
		A good friend of mine is Daniel Brinkley.
unidentified		I'm sure you've heard the name.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, great books.
		All right, and I don't even have to tell you.
		Dan, when you talk to Dan about death, he laughs.
		I mean, he actually laughs.
		He is the furthest thing, the furthest worry from his mind.
		And then there's one more thing.
		You said that during that period of time, that man understood what the people were thinking, the compassion and the love they were feeling.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are many people like this, doctor, that for a period of time, though it begins to fade, but for a period of time after they're back, retain the ability to understand what others are thinking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you heard those stories?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I have only read about those.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Stay right where you are.
		I mean, to the degree in Daniel's case that it became like a noise that he couldn't block out no matter how hard he'd try.
		He would hear others' thoughts to the point where he had to be alone.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. with Dr. Janice Amatusio.
		Amy, stay right there.
unidentified		And I'm smiling, walking mild to drink your water.
		I'm smiling, walking mild to drink your water.
		I'm smiling, walking mild to drink your water.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell, Frombought Kingdom of Knot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed, and you should know who you're listening to if you're joining us late.
		Dr. Janice Amatuzio, who is a forensic medicine type person.
		M.E. actually has developed many courses in topics like death investigation, forensic nursing, forensic medicine, and mortuary science.
		Dr. Amatusio serves as coroner and regional resource for a multiple of counties in Minnesota and Wisconsin.
		She's a heavyweight in her field, and she's got some very interesting views.
		Would you like to feel 10 years younger in 10 weeks?
		A forensic pathologist's perspective on immortality and living.
		And, Doctor, how is this being greeted by your colleagues as a matter of interest?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's quite interesting.
		Most of my colleagues Have accepted it pretty well, particularly the physicians here at the hospital and several other of the forensic pathologists.
		But I have had two rather different reactions.
		One of them was a very good friend of mine, a coroner in another county.
		And when I had lunch with him the other day, he said, Oh, Janice, he said, thank you for the beautiful book and the inscription in it.
		But he says, you know, I don't believe a word of it.
		Oh, I said, really?
		What do you think?
		And he said, well, I think when we die, we're all roadkill.
		And I said, well, we'll see, won't we, John?
		And another time.
unidentified		John will see, yes, he will.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Another time I was lecturing to a group of physicians at a hospital in St. Paul.
		And, you know, physicians are skeptical, and particularly on this subject.
		And they were all sitting way in the back of the room, and I was tethered to the microphone in the front.
		There was this chasm between us.
		And I finished telling my stories, and I felt that I'd been greeted with some interest, but mainly skepticism.
		And I was finished up and gathered my notes and was putting on my coat and boots.
		And a couple of doctors came down.
		And one of them said to me, have you ever heard any of these stories from an atheist?
		And I said, you know, I'm not sure.
		Perhaps.
		And he nodded, and he said, okay.
		And he turned to walk away and he turned back and he said, you know, I heard a saying in the old country that might just apply here.
		He said, the saying is this, if all the world were blind and only one man could see, they would call him crazy too.
		He said, good luck.
		And he walked away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good luck and walked away.
		Yes, yes.
		You said earlier that a lot of people, when they deal with you, you know, relatives who are just in the grieving process, respond with anger.
		And I wonder how you handle that in your job.
		I mean, you must get a lot of it, a lot of anger.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Oh, we do.
		Anger and shock and such incredible sorrow.
		You know, I had a lady come into this office once who was so angry and so upset, and she was very difficult with our secretaries who are the first people they greet.
		And I don't allow the people in my office to get abused.
		And I took this lady in the room, and I talked with her.
		And afterwards, I said to our secretaries, you know, we have to be, we can't let terribly bad behavior happen.
		But remember, she's the one who lost her mother.
		And that is so incredibly hard.
		And usually, there was a man that came in and his wife had been sick for a long period of time, a number of weeks in the hospital of a disease that the doctors just didn't diagnose right away because it was unusual.
		It was a vasculitis, an unusual disease called polyarteritis nodosa, which is a systemic, system-wide inflammation of the blood vessels.
		And wherever the blood vessel is inflamed, it gives that symptom.
		Like if it inflames the blood vessels around the spinal cord, you end up with paralysis, perhaps, or all sorts of different fleeting symptoms.
		And she was a woman, his second wife, about 17 years younger than him, and he was furious.
		He was certain that there had been a problem with the diagnosis and treatment.
		And I did the autopsy, and I have to tell you, this man called almost every day, angrily, until all of the special studies had been completed.
		And I decided to meet with him because I knew a phone call or a letter wouldn't be enough.
		And he came into my office so he looked as angry as he was.
		He was disheveled and unshaven.
		And I brought him into our conference room, and we sat down.
		And we must have spent an hour and a half going through the autopsy report, the chart, and finally we finished.
		And he had no more questions.
		And I looked at him and I said, how are you doing?
		And he said, you know, I just can't believe this has happened to me.
		He said, you know, this was my second wife.
		My first wife died right after I had retired.
		And along with that went all of my dreams for retiring and spending time together.
		Of course.
		And he said, I went to our church's grief group, and I met this lovely younger woman.
		He said, you know, we had more fun.
		He said, love is different with her.
		He says, but we had a wonderful time.
		He said, I sold my house.
		We traveled up and down the country.
		We did all of the things I never took time to do in the earlier part of my life.
		And I never expected her to die before me.
		And now she's gone, and I'm bereft.
		And, you know, there was just something.
		And, you know, I said to him, oh, I said, what a love.
		I said, you know, I talk to so many people after the death of a loved one.
		And it's so infrequent I hear somebody describe their spouse with such passion.
		I said, you have really been loved.
		And you have really loved.
		I said, do you know how few people get to really do that, live full out and love with all their might?
		And he looked at me and he just calmed down and he said, thank you.
		I'll remember that.
		I think I can go on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll help him deal with it, sure.
		And I guess, in a way, you're a grief counselor.
		Yes.
		Doctor, I've got a question here from Scranton, Pennsylvania.
		I have this cute little computer next to me, and they can fire questions at me, which they do during the show.
		We hear many stories of near-death, like the ones you've told, with relatives appearing, with people floating in operating rooms, even moving out and then coming back, and everything you said.
		But what you don't hear and what people don't talk about are the lesser discussed bad experiences, those people who have had NDEs and have gone to not such nice places and have returned.
		Have you heard any such accounts?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I have not heard one of those.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not one, huh?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Not one.
		I have not heard one.
		I have found people finding themselves in phenomenal places of light and coming back with some of them have come back and have changed their lives, have had the opportunity to look over their life and have changed them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the life review?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Many come back and mention that to you.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I had a man who had a actually this was a story told to me by a physician friend of mine.
		He had a patient who had a, oh, I guess he was a difficult human being, always fighting with his neighbors.
		His yard was a mess.
		His farm was a mess.
		And this man developed a melanoma, a tumor of the pigment-bearing cells in the skin.
		And when it was diagnosed, it was already in his lungs, and it was already on his arm.
		And he had let this thing ulcerate and had let it go beyond where he should have.
		And the doctors told him the only thing they could do was palliative surgery.
		And they took him into the operating room and removed the tumor from his arm.
		And evidently, when this man awakened, he had had one of these experiences.
		And he said he had the opportunity to review all of the consequences of his actions.
		And he had decided to change his life.
		And not only did his life change, but his farm changed, and his relationship changed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And unbelievable as it was to this physician, four years later, there was not a tumor in his lung.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have, I mean, when you hear that sort of thing, my father passed of melanoma, which got to his lungs just a couple of years ago.
		And it's unrelenting.
		It's just a horrible disease.
		There's no question about it.
		And I just, how, can you explain to me, doctor, how that can happen?
		How these things that we hear about that we call miracles can occur?
		How can you have melanoma and have tumors in your lungs and have them regress.
		And have it go away?
		How does that happen, doctor?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Sir, I don't know.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I really don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it does really happen, doesn't it?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		It does really happen.
		It happens sometimes.
		I wished I could tell you why it happens sometimes and not others, or why these out-of-body experiences happen to some and not others.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I really don't.
		It almost seems unfair in a way.
		You know, I can't really calculate how I'm living my life, probably not all that well.
		And if I had a review, I'd probably change some things, I'm sure.
		And that's kind of like a second chance that some very few people seem to get and that most don't.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And you know, I think we are so lucky to even hear about these.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And sometimes, as Dr. Rachel Naomi Remon says, we just have to live in the mystery and maybe control what we can control.
		And perhaps one of those things are our thoughts and our words and our actions.
		And now, that's how I feel personally.
		But, you know, what is fascinating is not that these things exist, but how we react to them and how they change our lives.
		And most of the people who have had good experiences, and frankly, that is all that I have had the privilege of hearing about, have come back with a renewed sense of the power of love, of wanting to make the world a better place.
		I had a sheriff in a rural county when I was meeting with him after we had had an elderly woman brutally murdered in her farm home, and the assailant had been caught and had pled guilty.
		And I was meeting with the county attorney and the sheriff, and one of the detectives was sitting at lunch who knew I was working on my book.
		And, you know, he casually said, oh, Doc, how's your book coming?
		And, you know, that's just an absolute showstopper.
		You know, they'd been talking about hunting and fishing.
		And all of a sudden, I was caught in that uneasy feeling of treading on what I perceived to be the fringe.
		And, of course, there's all that law enforcement type, healthy skepticism.
		And I tried to get off the subject quickly when the sheriff of the county said, hey, Diane's not the big deal people make it out to be.
		I drowned once.
		And I thought, drowned.
		He didn't say, you're going to be drowned.
		He said, drowned.
		And I wondered what really happened.
		And the county attorney leaned over and said, well, you grew up on Clearwater Lake, didn't you?
		The sheriff said, yes, my brother and I spent every waking moment of the summer swimming there.
		He said, there was a lifeguard tower.
		It had four legs, and each of the legs was like a ladder with rungs.
		He said, when we were young, we'd just race to the bottom of the lake and back.
		And when we got older, we would make it a little harder.
		We'd swim in and out of the rungs.
		And he said, one day he was on his way back, and he says, I was almost at the top, and I got stuck.
		He patted his hips.
		He said, there's a part of my anatomy that really got stuck.
		And he says, I was wedged, and he said, I started to panic.
		He said, I could look up, I could see the surface, and he said he saw his brother up there, and he saw his brother get the lifeguard and pull him out.
		And the next thing he knew, he was on the bottom of a boat.
		And I looked at the sheriff, and I thought, you know, I bet there's something more to this story.
		And I said, Sheriff, do you remember anything else?
		And he said, yes, but I don't usually talk about it.
		And the county attorney said, go on, go on, sheriff.
		What is it you want to say?
		Sheriff took a deep breath and he said, well, what happened is as clear as if it happened yesterday.
		He said, I was struggling and I thought I'm going to die.
		What a dumb way to die.
		He said, I took a gulp of water and I found myself up above the water.
		He said there were beautiful colors.
		I was calm.
		I watched all of that frantic activity and I found myself racing along the surface and I could move by just thinking about it.
		And then I was jolted back into my body and they were doing CPR.
		And he said, you know, Doc, what was so interesting was that everything looked like it was in black and white.
		It almost took me several days to get back to color vision.
		He said, I wondered if things were just so stunningly vivid and bright there that everything here seemed a little dull.
		And then he turned to me and he said, you know, Doc, I know you're the coroner.
		I know you see death every day and it bothers lots of folks.
		But I'm not afraid of death after what happened.
		He said, dying, that's easy.
		It's living that counts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's living that's hard.
		That's right.
		You don't have to answer this, of course, if you don't want to, but it would be interesting to understand are you a religious person?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I was a Catholic.
		I no longer attend church.
		I wouldn't describe myself as religious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Spiritual, though.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		But spiritual, yes.
		I have a great deal of respect for all of the religions.
		I have a great deal of respect for whatever helps people find meaning in their life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, then, you and I are right on the same exact note.
		I, too, have a great deal of respect for religion, and I know that it helps many people.
		And there's probably something to it all.
		I really don't know.
		But I'm sort of concentrating, because of the hotten person I am, and apparently you are too, on what we can seem to really prove.
		And we're beginning to get on the edge of some things that finally we may be able to really make a very strong case.
		I mean, and it's books like yours that are helping to do this that there is an afterlife.
		Maybe, you know, it's who knows, God, Buddha, whoever.
		Yes, the Creator, but there is some sort of continuation that seems to occur.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		It's so overwhelming, and it's so common.
		I just, two weeks ago, spoke with a woman.
		Her 38-year-old husband had died.
		He was an alcoholic, had alcoholic liver disease and hepatitis B, and he wouldn't stop drinking.
		And here he was, you know, dying.
		And I called to tell her the results of the autopsy and toxicology tests.
		And when I had finished talking with her, she said, Doc, can I tell you something?
		And it doesn't happen that often.
		But I said, go ahead.
		And she said, you know, I was in bed with him when he died.
		And just before he died, he looked up at the ceiling and he said, do you see that light?
		And she said, no.
		And she said, he said, wow, it's beautiful.
		He said, Lori, I have no pain.
		I have found what no drug would ever do for me.
		This is what I've waited for all my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he died.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And he died with his eyes wide open.
		And I listened, and she said, what do you think?
		And I said, well, what does this mean to you?
		And she, interestingly, said, she paused a minute and she composed herself and took a moment to pull it together.
		And she said, Doctor, I've always believed in God and heaven before, but now I know.
		I have no doubt.
		And I will love him forever for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something.
		Doctor, hold on.
		When we get back, I'll tell you what.
		During the break, if you can, read some of that study if you have an opportunity to, and maybe we can get your comments on it when we get back.
		Stay right there.
		My guest is an ME.
		She's Dr. Janice Amatuzio.
		She's got a book.
		You might want to read it after hearing all of this.
unidentified		Miracles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a separate and also very interesting topic, isn't it?
		Her book, once again, is Forever Ours, a forensic pathologist's perspective on immortality in living.
		And there's a link, of course, from my website, I presume amazon.com and all the usual places.
		From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
		When we get back, we'll go to the phones.
unidentified		I How could I get the first time the last time we're here?
		I know the reason why you get such a significant recharge bells in the Kingdom of Nye.
		From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To recharge on the toll-free international line, call your agency operator and ask them dial 800-893-0903.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is Dr. Janice Amatuzio.
		She's an ME and kind of a heavyweight in the area.
		And we're talking about life and death.
		And we're going to the phones with all of you shortly.
		Well, there are flashlights and there are flashlights now.
		The flashlight that...
		Doctor, welcome back.
		Thank you.
		Did you have a chance to at least glance at that article?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I've actually had a chance to look the whole thing over.
unidentified		It's quite fascinating, Dr. McDougall's work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm referring, of course, to the study done in the early 1900s about a loss of weight at the instant of death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, can you imagine that any study such as that could be done today?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure that I don't see why it couldn't be done if somebody wanted to do it.
		But, you know, what I find fascinating about this is that I think that this is medicines or sciences attempt.
		You know, to it's an old study to answer an age-old question, and that is what left?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What left, yeah?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		What left?
		And, you know, I don't know that we are ever going to be any better at measuring.
		But as you and I have been talking the last hour or two, I think we're beginning to understand.
		We're understanding.
		And that understanding is really coming through what is for us an unlikely source, and that is stories.
		I know in other cultures, sometimes Native American cultures, stories play a very important role in helping us find meaning.
		That always has not been as important a source in our current culture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think that is?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I think because we like to rely on science because we have begun to be able to measure things and explain things.
		And some of our technological advances are astonishing.
		But I think it's always a balance.
		I think we have to balance, you know, the mystery and the mastery.
		And the mystery is usually explained by the stories, and the mastery is explained by the science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		Absolutely true.
		All right, I would sure love to take some phone calls.
		Are you up for that?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you bet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, the switchboard, as they say, is all lit, so let's see what we've got.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Janice.
		Habituzio.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good morning, Art and Dr. Janice.
unidentified		First thing, could I get the last name spelling of Janice's name?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, go ahead.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's A-M-A-T-U-Z-I-O.
unidentified		Okay.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Common Italian spelling.
unidentified		That's great.
		One you won't forget.
		Let me begin first.
		I'm up here in Seattle, and I actually lived a few blocks from the King County Morgue when it was located at Queen Anne Hill in Seattle.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Right at the foot of Space New and whatnot.
		And as kids, we used to walk by that morgue on the way home from school, and we'd see the panel vans with the gurneys going in with the body bags and whatnot.
		But as kids, we weren't really scared going by there.
		It was kind of like we treated it as like a hospital, even though we knew these people weren't coming back to life.
		The irony about that location, it was closed down and they moved facilities, but it became a haunted house for a time for a local radio station when Halloween.
		We had the opportunity to walk through it, and it was definitely disturbing at that point because then we had memories of what this building served purpose.
		Now it serves as a retirement home and nursing home.
		So if you can imagine that the patients knew that.
		My second point was I've also been with my mom and mother-in-law at the time of their passing.
		And I think that's remarkable for anybody to experience death at first close at hand with loved ones.
		But at both times, I felt at ease letting them go in the next life.
		And my mother-in-law had told my wife not to worry because she believed this was her last time on earth, that she had lived many lives before, and that this was the time that she was not going to be coming back.
		Now, the one last point I have, I've experienced deaths close at home with neighbors or friends, one of which was a neighbor across the street from where I lived, and I happened to come by the house, and the husband was out on the front stoop one Monday afternoon in the sun, and we were talking,
		and then he eventually invited me in, and here's his wife laying in the front living room with a dog jumping all over her body, and he tells me that she had been laying there for two days, dead, and I asked why had the body still not been removed, and he said that the Seattle police had called the Seattle morgue, the King County morgue rather.
		They had told him that they would get a funeral director in there, of which I called the SPD dispatch, and they said, no, he's to call for the funeral director.
		But the morgue had issued a tow tag.
		Now, my question, as well as this other point, I also had a landlady that...
		Well, I'm going to get to it.
		My former landlady died mysteriously one weekend, and her son had just appeared out of nowhere, and neighbors heard screams and whatnot.
		And the officers at the scene both had questioned whether it was a homicide or natural cause.
		But in both cases, these women were of elderly age, and the King County morgue issued toe takes, and both bodies were cremated before an autopsy was ever performed.
		And I'm just wondering, is there not a law that autopsies are to be performed?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Doctor?
		I'm not certain exactly what the rules in Washington are, but the general overall principles are that a death scene investigation is performed, a scene investigation, an investigation of the circumstances.
		And if the manner of death is not explained by the scene investigation, or if there are any injuries to document or specimens to gather, then a post-mortem examination is Performed.
		The King County office is highly respected.
		Excellent work comes out of their office.
		And I'm not familiar enough, and I don't know that you are either with all of the details, but I would surmise in the first case there was a miscommunication as to when the funeral director should be called.
		And in the second case, perhaps the screams you heard were grief, because grief has many faces.
		But I would dare say that after a thorough scene investigation, an investigation of the circumstances and her medical history, that they decided to release her without an autopsy.
		And whenever there is cremation, there should be a death investigation, at least a discussion with the physician who was attending that person as to whether or not there was anything untoward, any accident or any reason not to cremate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me yank you back for a second.
		I have had several people call me, doctor, who have been with a loved one at the moment of death and have actually been over them, hugging them, holding them at the instant of death.
		And I have been told by some fair number of people, doctor, that they actually, at the instant the person passed, they felt something move through them.
		Have you ever heard that?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I have heard that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you have?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I have heard that.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I've not experienced it personally, but I've heard it from several close friends and acquaintances.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're back to stories here, but I mean, those are some stories.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Those really are.
		There's certainly more than meets the eye here, isn't there?
		I read a quote once that might fit here.
		It said, there's more in this universe, seen and unseen, than the imagination can hold or the heart can fathom.
		It might have been Shakespeare.
		I'm not certain, but we're at that point here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Jonas Amatizio.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		Hello.
		Hi, this is David in Devor, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, David.
unidentified		I just want to say phenomenal program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		And, well, earlier, somebody asked the question of people having negative near-death experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And a few years ago, I had a roommate, and we were outside, we were talking, it was late in the night, and he told this story about how he died.
		And at that time in his life, there was a lot of bad things going on.
		And he was on a lot of drugs at the time, but he had an overdose, and his heart stopped.
		And he said that he felt himself just sucked out of his body faster than anything he could describe.
		And that he ended up in this place.
		And the only way he could describe it was complete darkness forever.
		And that he was completely isolated, could communicate with nobody.
		But out inside of this darkness, he could feel the presence of other souls out there, but no way to contact them, just complete and utter desolation and isolation.
		And when he told me this story, it still brings chills down my spine.
		And so I just wanted to share that with you.
		I'm sure it's possible that you could say it was the drugs that did this, but I believe that he died and went to what he believes was hell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure I would apply the drug explanation any more easily here than I would in the good stories that we get.
		But there you are, Doctor.
		We do get these.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Did his life change at all after that experience?
unidentified		I don't think it did.
		And that's one of the problems with it because this was years before I knew him.
		And when I knew him, he was still on drugs.
		He had a methamphetamine problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I suppose if you didn't want to quit your way of life, caller, you could say to yourself, it was the drugs and just plow right back into your life.
unidentified		Yeah, but I think he realized that it was more than the drugs because the way he told it, too, you know, I recount this story, but he said what I'm telling you right now is a millionth of what it actually felt like.
unidentified		It's just, you know, words cannot describe the pure just terror and isolation of it.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Almost the same things that drugs do to individuals is isolate them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, caller, thank you very much.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		There are stories like that, Doctor.
		And I've heard them, and I've heard some really amazing stories.
		Every bit as detailed and on the other side, horrific as the good ones.
		There was a young lady.
		Get this.
		She was a church volunteer.
		Her name was Sarah.
		Most moving story I ever heard.
		I'd play it again and again if I could.
		And she was on her way home from church, get this, church volunteer work.
		And she was hit by a car really hard from the rear.
		And it just threw her, I don't know, 150 feet or something or another.
		And she was dead.
		She was clinically dead for a very long period of time.
		I can't recall how long.
		But she went to a hellish place, and she described it in incredible detail, more like a visitor than a permanent resident.
		But she got to travel around and look in these various areas where she saw what she described as millions of tormented souls.
		And it was, you would have had to have heard the story.
		My relating it just is insufficient, but it went on for hours.
		It was incredible.
		So there are these things.
		Do you believe, Doctor, that there is a, see, how can I ask this?
		Do you believe in good and evil?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I believe there are opposite polarities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Opposite polarities, right.
		So is in an NDE or a death experience, somebody who experiences evil, does that surprise you or has a very bad experience?
		Now, people, of course, remember, coming back, as unlikely as you are to even talk about a good experience, You know, floating around the room, whatever.
		You're much less likely to talk about meeting the horned one or something like that, right?
		I mean, you're going to keep that one to yourself, probably.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm not going to comment on that, Ark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I'm going out far enough on a limb even relating these stories.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear you in your position.
		I understand.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Janice Abatusio.
		Hi.
unidentified		My name is Roger.
unidentified		I'm calling from Auburn, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Wonderful show, Art and Doctor.
		Wonderful.
		Anyway, I have a story about 20 years ago.
		I grew up in a small town close by here, Nevada City, a little old mining town.
		And I had two friends that were like best friends.
		We went through grade school and high school together.
		And one's name was Dan, one's name was Rock Wendell.
		And basically, we'd been partying at the California State Fair.
		And then we went home.
		I had my girlfriend.
		I had to take my girlfriend to her house.
		And she promptly snuck out of the house.
		And we went to my house.
		Well, at 1.29 in the morning, I remember because I looked at the clock.
		I snapped awake out of a deep sleep because somebody was in my room.
		And when I kind of in and out of the grogginess, I knew that it was Wendell and he was with somebody.
		And Wendell was saying to whoever he was with that he didn't want to wake me up, didn't want to disturb me.
		And the whatever he was with said, no, he won't mind.
		He wants you.
		And Wendell came up to me and said, goodbye.
		And I got a really good feeling from the person or being or whatever it was that he was with.
		And my girlfriend also woke up.
		And she remembered something about Wendell being in the room.
		And I went back to sleep.
		Had to get up early to sneak my girlfriend back to her house.
		Drove back home.
		Went back to sleep.
		At about 10 o'clock, my mom came in, woke me up crying, and said that Wendell and Dan had gotten a car accident, and Wendell was killed at 1.29 in the morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
unidentified		And then the accident happened in front of my girlfriend's house.
		And by the time I had brought her back, they'd already removed the wreckage.
		Dan, who was the driver, had popped out of the windshield and landed in a pile of hay.
		And when I asked him, does he remember what happened?
		He said that somebody grabbed a hold of him, carried him out of the windshield, and set him on the hay.
		And that's a God's Honest Truth story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, I believe it.
unidentified		And I went from, like you said, a disbeliever or non-interest to a definite believer because I was a football player in the Army and everything, and I've been always serious about things.
unidentified		It just convinced me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is something to be very curious about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Color, thank you very much.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor.
		So there you are, another one.
		I've also heard stories that people who don't experience an instant death or some tragedy or accident or murder or suicide, whatever, but people who die slowly and know that they're near death inevitably begin to report seeing people and sometimes loved ones, but as frequently as not, people they don't even know.
		They just report seeing people in their hospital rooms, that sort of thing.
		Have you heard a lot of those reports?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I have.
		I actually had a nurse come up to me after one of my lectures and she had a twinkle in her eye and she said, you know, Doc, she says, those of us nurses who care for very sick patients know that when they start talking to people not in the room, that they're not going to be here much longer.
		That's it.
		That's right.
		And she laughs.
		And I said, yes, I just do wonder what that's all about.
		You know, maybe they're just starting to see with different eyes, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And see a different place.
		Hold on, Doctor.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		A very different place.
		Maybe a different dimension.
		That's just a word, isn't it?
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		Don't you feel it's growing day by day?
		Keep up getting ready for the moon.
		I'm a happy day.
		Come out and say, come let me say what the people need is a way to make them fine.
		The International...
		The International...
		Somewhere in the morning when I free it maybe about faith,
		how she gave me life, how she made it more here, Thank you.
		look for us.
		Look at us, but you know, there is my head call, Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies At 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
		Dr. Janice Amatuzio is my guest.
		She's an M.E. from the upper Midwest, and she's told some pretty interesting stories.
		Should help you think about what may be coming.
		No, correction.
		What is coming?
		I'm Art Bell.
		Stay right where you are.
		Doctor, somebody fastblast me that they've been checking Amazon.
		Cannot find your book.
		Is it not available there?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		It's not quite yet on Amazon.
		We hope it'll be on in the next week or so.
		Right now, you can get it through our website or by calling our office.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, geez.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		This has only been a couple of weeks out yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Calling your office.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What number would that be?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		That would be 763-236-9050.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Or they can download an order form off of our website, foreverhours.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which we have a link to.
		No problem there.
		But there is a phone number, and it's 763-236-9050.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, gosh.
		I wish we'd had that earlier.
		Well, so I presume that in the next two or three weeks or so, Amazon.com will have it.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they will.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		We've put in our application, but we have not yet gotten it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So this is really a new book, isn't it?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		It's just out.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I just published it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did you feel when you finished?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've written a few books myself, and I'm always curious, when you finally put the last touch on it and sent it off, how did you feel?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Exhilarated and like sending a child off to college.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		All of those mixed emotions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just like I've heard it described as something like birth.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		And postpartum depression.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, yes, yes.
		Do you think there is more in you?
		Will you write more?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		Yes.
		I am going to write a second book on these experiences.
		And it's been absolutely fascinating.
		And they don't happen very often, but more and more are pouring in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here we go.
		East of the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Dr. Janice Amatusio.
unidentified		Hello.
		Yes.
		Hi, Art.
		Hi, Dr. Janice.
		Hi, as a skeptic myself and an atheist on religious matters.
		Of course, I'm just as scared of death as Art Bell is and most people, too, because I think death logically, rationally, is non-existence.
		But of course, ultimately, it's the unknown, the fear of the unknown, and everybody, or most everybody, is frightened of the unknown.
		But we must look at this from a scientific point of view using the scientific method.
		And I have a little theory, a little hypothesis, I should say, better word than a theory, as to where we could both have it both ways, meaning there still could be an existence after death, say the mind.
		I would not use the word soul, that's a religious-loaded word.
		But let's say the mind, which is the thinking, feeling, emotions, and memory of the person, maybe could exist once the body dies without there being a God, without there being a creator.
		If you'll bear with me, I'll say it briefly and then you can comment on this.
		Let's say the mind is some kind of energy.
		We know there are matter and energy, two basic forms of things in our cosmos.
		If the mind is energy, if you want to use the term, I suppose, I don't know if it's valid, but intelligent energy, assuming that makes some kind of sense.
		So that if energy, energy which cannot be created or destroyed, therefore once the brain and the body dies, the mind, which is energy, does not destroy, let's say, and keeps existing after the body dies.
		But also, the mind, which is energy, does not have to be created.
		Therefore, you don't need a God, certainly not a biblical God, to create the mind or the body or the brain for that matter.
		So my point is simply, what do you think of the possibility or the concept, looking at it from as scientific as we can, from the year 2002 science that we have now, medical science, that maybe the mind or consciousness, which I like instead of the word soul, I'm saying again, could exist after the body dies.
		And maybe we always existed, but we don't remember.
		Maybe we always existed and we'll always continue to exist, but we just don't remember except maybe unconscious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Bill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, doctor?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I think that's fascinating.
		I think, Bill, there's some very, what I think are real elements of truth in what you say.
		But, you know, more than anything else, we don't know.
		I think we may come to some more and more scientific conclusions, but it takes us right to the edge of the mystery.
		I just don't think we know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I, too, find myself more in agreement with him than disagreement.
		And I don't know about religion.
		I'm respectful of it, as you are, but I don't know about it.
		What I do seem to know more about is this increasing amount of evidence that there simply is something that goes on.
		And I'm not sure.
		You know, I will get a million emails saying, fool, of course you go on.
		It's God.
		You know, and so that's all right.
		That's fine.
		It may well be, and I hope that's true.
		Doctor, do you have an email address?
		And be cautious here.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Not yet, but when I upgrade my website, which is happening soon, there will be an email address on our website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A way to contact you, okay.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so we'll leave it at that for now.
		And again, the number of folks to order the book.
		The only way to get it right now, other than the website, is 736.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		763.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, 763-236-9050.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, is that a daytime?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		That's daytime.
		That's central time.
		So it's 7.30 in the morning until 5 in the afternoon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Central time.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Central time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		763-236-9050.
		All right.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Janice Amatuzio.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Oregon.
		Okay.
		First of all, I think that that last caller was a pantheist, not an atheist.
		Well, so am I. But I first just have a couple comments, and I want to ask a question, and I'll listen to it off the phone.
		I'll turn my radio back on.
		Sure.
		I do a lot of reading about past life regressions and near-death experiences.
		And the dark place that that caller described, where his friend had a near-death experience and went to a dark place and felt like he couldn't have any communication or contact with anything, that's been described by a lot of different sources and a lot of different people from various backgrounds as a place where you go to overcome grief and attachments that are no longer of use to moving on to the next place and that your perspective in that area
		matters.
		Like, who knows?
		Maybe that's where the atheists go.
		You don't believe in anything.
		You don't get anything.
		But in a lot of the reading I've done, it says that it's a place to overcome griefs and attachments.
		And then the people, same people that you know or that you don't know, or people that even you feel like they know you, those could be people from past lives that you don't remember from your current incarnation or whatever, but that's why you seem to not know them, but they seem to know you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's run that one by the doctor.
		Doctor, is that something you have considered, the whole concept of reincarnation?
		And, you know, some hypnotists have done some pretty incredible stuff.
		You know, if you do some reading, people have been regressed, and I've heard the most remarkable evidence of past lives described and then confirmed.
		You know, halfway across the country, they'll check a name or an address or something, and boom, there it is.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Art, I think personally, for me personally, it's a given.
		It's the truth.
		It seems to me, personally, to be what is real.
		And that's apart from being a forensic pathologist or medical examiner.
		For me, it just has the ring of truth about it.
		And I've never had a past life regression.
		I just think we've got to have at least more than one try at this to get it right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, exactly.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller blind.
		You're on the air with Dr. Janice.
		I'm Atuzio.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		I have a question.
		My mom died like three years ago.
		And while she was in the hospital, the doctors never let me know toward the end that she was going to die.
		They never said anything to us as family.
		We had called the day before she died because we had sensed that something was not right.
		And she had never said anything herself, and the doctors never said anything to us either.
		And my first question really is, I mean, I realize doctors can't tell when the death is going to come, but why would they not talk to family at all?
		You know, they just completely shut us out.
		And it has had very devastating impact on me.
		And I have to say that my mom went downhill so quickly that I, at this point, feel that it is possible that someone messed with her in some way.
		Because there were reports from the nurses that my mom kept dialing 911 from her hospital room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this would be certainly a sub.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was there an autopsy done?
unidentified		Unfortunately not.
		And she was cremated right after.
		And I didn't even, I was so devastated with grief that I didn't think to have one done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would think that under those circumstances, if they were known, there would have been an autopsy, doctor.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Excuse me.
		I think an autopsy would have been indicated if there was some question.
		You certainly could have someone help you review the medical chart.
		I would say to you that physicians, many of them, are uncomfortable with letting a patient go and dying.
		And I don't know exactly what your mom's physical condition was.
		I would also ask you what were your mother's wishes about sharing family information or sharing information with the family members.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, so in other words, it could have been that she really didn't want anybody to know.
		That's it.
		May I ask you one other thing?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Certainly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is a very, very sensitive topic, and it's one you don't have to broach.
		You don't have to answer.
		But there are a lot of people, you know, we have a lot of cancer.
		We have a lot of really terrible ways, I suppose, to die.
		And I think I know, and I think most or a lot of people in the country know that there comes a time in the treatment of a patient where pain control and the hastening of death become a very blurry line indeed.
		And I've had personal experience with some of my friends who have passed who I know were given a pain medication that would likely result in their death.
		And how common a practice, in your opinion, doctor, is that?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Well, I will put on my medical hat here and tell you, I don't see that very often.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		No, I do not.
		We investigate all the deaths of individuals in hospice.
		And one of the problems for us as scientists and forensic pathologists is that when pain medications such as morphine are given over a long period of time, individuals get a remarkably increased tolerance to pain, so, or excuse me, increased tolerance to the medication, so that their levels are extremely high.
		And it's sometimes very hard for us to determine whether that was an overdose or a deliberate overdose or just a result of a pretty hazy line, isn't it?
		It's a very hazy line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Morphine and Valium, there are certain combinations that can hasten the passing, aren't there?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Absolutely.
		Or ease the pain, because so many people in those terminal stages have...
		I actually think that the greater problem at times is not giving people enough pain medication to help them.
		I really do.
		Here, here.
		I think we get so frightened of this whole problem of death and dying that we withhold medications at a time we shouldn't take.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We also get rather frightened of the DEA, don't we?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		We get terrified.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		The DEA and the medical examiner.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's so wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What can be done in America, in your opinion, to?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Bill?
		I think that I think we as a society have, and you know, have kept death at a distance.
		And I think it's coming right to us right now.
		I mean, the events in the past couple of months have put it right in our face.
		And we've all been learning how to grieve again and how to live.
		And I think with our increasing consciousness and awareness and sensitivity and kindness, I think we'll all learn or remember together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Janice Amatuzio.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, Art.
		Hi, Doctor.
		This is James from Phoenix.
		Art, you're just asking how often I was practiced?
		Well, that just happened to me a couple months ago.
		They told me I'm off the terminal list.
		They changed my medication because I keep going and going.
		But anyway, I had an ordeal with a scorpion a few years ago in the mid-90s.
		It stung me in my jugular vein.
		And it just, I couldn't get to the vet hospital.
		I finally had to stop it long closer.
		And they didn't know what to do.
		I mean, I had to force myself to breathe.
		And come to find out later.
		It was a scorpion that was extinct in North America for 10 years.
		It got shipped up on a package from South America.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holy smokes.
unidentified		Yeah, and so 11 hours, I had to hover out of my body.
		It hurt so bad I couldn't stand it.
		And I could sense the whole room full of, well, anyway, I could sense the whole room full of entities, people sitting beside, you know, as in intensive care, people sitting all around everybody, and there were more astral than physical.
		Anyway, I didn't have time to concentrate on that around me because every time the machines, the EKGs and the EEGs went flat, I had to wait a while.
		And then once they started getting nervous, I had to switch my toe and it just pulled me right back in my body.
		The pain was so intense.
		And I had to do that.
		Finally, the doctor found out what it was.
		They shipped up some medication from Tucson, some anti-venom, at the medical labs they were experimenting with.
		The first one didn't work, so they had to use the other one.
		It was a goat's blood, but I could finally get back into my body, and the doctor came in and shook my hand, and that really put me back in intense pain.
		He said, I made his day because he was just farting around on the computer and figuring it out, and it made his day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is an incredible story.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		That really is incredible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you remember going in and out, in and out of your body?
unidentified		Oh, yes, I had to.
		I mean, I kept watching the machines, and I didn't want to go too far.
		I'd had experience when I was real little because nobody told me I couldn't leave, you know.
		But this made me do it.
		And you can't talk over there.
		You have to use your intent.
		And after I got out, I couldn't form a complete sentence for weeks.
		I mean, poison control center was calling me a few times a day.
		But now I got this nerve problem.
		Like I said, they just had that practice on me.
		Cancer is like a 27 on a 50 scale, and this is like a 43 RSD.
		And I can actually see my dead brother and my grandpa, and people that know me know that I can because they know I'm kind of weird, but I don't lie.
		And their conscious entities are still around sometimes.
		And I just wanted you to know about that.
		And I was wondering how often things like that happen that people can actually see on the other side afterwards.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Apparently, sir, pretty frequently is the answer.
		We were talking about that earlier, that people that don't go in some instant way do seem to begin to see others around them, not even necessarily loved ones or relatives, but others.
		And this is a pretty frequent report to the point where people in hostels, you know, for those who are dying, as the doctor said, once they say they're starting to see people, they know they're very close to death.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Has this changed your life at all?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has this changed my life?
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		The caller's life?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's gone.
		It's changed my life.
		Doing this program, listening to these kind of calls and people and guests like you has changed my life.
		Doctor, we're out of time.
		It has been an absolute pleasure having you on the air, and I want to have you back again if you will consent to.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I'd love to.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		It's really been marvelous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the meantime, I hope your book does very well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I suspect it's going to do exceptionally well.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I'll owe a lot of that to you, Art.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you take care, and we'll see you next time.
janis amatuzio ▲ ● ▼		Thank you so much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Doctor.
		Good night.
		That phone number, Central Time, folks, daytime, Central Time telephone number for the book is 763-236-9050.
		That's what I want to read.
		763-236-9050.
		And a BNAB and a BNABNA.
		That's all, folks, from the high desert.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Can't even get my own name straight.

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