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Jan. 7, 2002 - Art Bell

02:34:58

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Mark McLaughlin - Alternative Energy

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01:33:05

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is the largest program of its kind in the world.
		Good beer.
		And it's getting a little larger tonight, JIML.
		Intellectual welcome.
		Well, something on the dial into left wyoming.
		And welcome to David Schoolfield, P.M., P.D. Mitch Miller, and Oxford Director Stephen.
unidentified		So another one joins the package.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Zooming, zooming, zooming over 500 affiliates.
		All right, well.
		Let's see what has happened in the world.
		The war news.
		British Prime Minister Tony Blair and nine U.S. senators swept into Bagram Air Base.
		It's a former Soviet airbase north of Kabul on Monday and promised Afghan leaders their full support in rebuilding the shattered country.
		Really?
		Did we, really?
unidentified		Hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's interesting.
		So I guess we didn't.
		The British did, but if they're doing it, we're doing it.
		So I wonder how much money it's going to cost us to rebuild Afghanistan.
		Now, it was in pretty bad shape before we began, which should be taken into account.
		I mean, when I first saw shots of Afghanistan, the ones that they showed, you remember, before the bombing began, it looked like the bombing had already happened.
unidentified		So it's going to be a big job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So are we supposed to put it back into the state that it was prior to our arrival?
		Or are we supposed to restore it totally so they have nice shiny cities?
		I'm not clear.
		Military officials said today that U.S. forces in Afghanistan are focusing now much more on attacking all remaining Taliban and al-Qaeda members and less on the hunt for Osama bin Laden and other individuals.
		Well, let's think about what that one means.
		We're back to attacking al-Qaeda and we're not looking for Osama.
		That means, translation, we can't find Osama, so here's what we're doing.
		That's basically it, and they can't find him yet.
		So I guess, you know, you've got to say what you're doing.
		And if you're sort of not finding him, then you shouldn't be looking for him.
		And if you're not looking for him, you should be doing something.
		So they're back to bombing.
		And I want to say that, well, let me finish up what news there is.
		The Red Cross is saying that a lot of people who donated blood after September 11th are reneging on their deal.
		And they're not coughing up the promised blood.
		So blood banks are in trouble, which seems incredible to me because when the September 11th thing occurred, there were, I thought, giving immediately, just hundreds and thousands of people, just giving blood immediately.
		So you would think they would have it, but no, I guess they just collected.
		They probably had so many they had to just collect chits.
		You know, blood chits.
		And when the chit got turned in, why there was, you know, no blood, no blood tonight.
		And then there's this teenager who crashed his airplane into the building.
		A skyscraper at Tampa.
		You know, it's just you shake your head.
		Here's a story about he was remembered as a patriot.
		He used to sing patriotic songs.
		And I've heard everything, I've heard everything about this fellow like you have over the weekend.
		And I don't know, I can't quite put it together.
		He had sympathy with Osama bin Laden is the one story, right?
		And the other story is he was a patriot and sang, sat around singing patriotic songs.
		And then I hear he was saddened by what happened September 11th.
		But then I hear he, in his note, praised and was in sympathy with the attack on September 11th.
		So I don't get it.
		I don't know.
		I don't know what you do with this story.
		I guess we're going to have to wait until we hear what the real deal is.
		Listen, my radon earthquake guy is predicting something slightly.
		He says a 7.2 earthquake near LA within 14 days.
		Now, this is just a guy who predicts earthquakes by measuring radon levels in his well.
		And he's been sending me these or calling them in.
		Used to be easier to get in, you know, so he'd call them in.
		Now I get them by email, and I've got a code on here, so I know it's him.
		And he's been terribly accurate.
		Sometimes a little off in the magnitude one way or the other, but in terms of accuracy within days, awfully good.
		Things to think about.
		It seems as though we're going to have a very close encounter.
		I don't know if you've heard about this yet or not.
		These things are not widely known, you know, past my program.
		If you didn't listen to my program, I doubt that you'd get this at all.
		Maybe you would.
		But just in case you don't have it yet, an asteroid discovered just one month ago is, in fact, making a very close approach to the Earth, though there is no apparent danger of colliding with it.
		The astronomers say that its proximity reminds us just how many objects are out there in space and ones that could strike our planet with devastating consequences.
		Moving closer to the Sun, the asteroid is passing less than twice the moon's distance from us.
		That's not much.
		370,000 miles they calculate at 0737 greenwich mean time on 7 january which is you know close in cosmic terms it is now get this it's 300 meters in size it says here actually uh large enough to wipe out any given entire country country I
		if it should hit Earth.
		It's 2001 YB-5, if you want to go check on it.
		Discovered early December by the Near Earth Asteroid Tracking Survey Telescope at Mount Palomar in California.
		Astronomers add it is potentially hazardous, meaning there is a slim chance that it may strike the Earth sometime in the future.
		So, it circles the sun every 1,321 days.
		Now, that's really interesting, isn't it?
		That's a real short-term big mama, and it comes by us very frequently.
		And it's coming...
		I wonder if they've calculated out the orbits from the one they're talking about, missing the Earth by two moon...
		That's not very much at all.
	That's really, really, really close.
	And I guess, you know, they can certainly calculate that it will be...
	will miss Earth by that much, and be right, I hope.
unidentified		Do you remember...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that we talked a little bit, only again on this program, right?
		about the Mir space station, and...
		do you remember the fungus in the Mir space station?
		Remember that?
		Well...
		maybe you don't.
		The Mir had a fungus growing in it that was eating through super materials that were on Mir.
		I mean, this fungus was eating...
		It was incredible what it was doing.
		It was really thick on the space station.
		And the space station fell, what, somewhere to the east of New Zealand and Australia.
		And I said to myself then...
		You know, they're all saying, well, of course, it'll burn up in the atmosphere, whatever it is.
		It'll burn up.
		I thought, yeah, but what if it doesn't?
		Because there was a big piece of the Mir that got down and crashed into the ocean, right?
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, bearing that in mind, as I...
		as I see the following story, there's a guy...
		It's in the New Zealand Herald, if you want to check on it, folks.
unidentified		And it shows...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		this scientist holding...
unidentified		this stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They call it a mystery marine animal that has invaded...
		Wanda...
		and I'm going to have to spell it for you...
		W-H-A-N-G-A-M-A-T-A.
		Wangamata Harbor, I guess, could threaten New Zealand's aquaculture industry.
		Because whatever this is, this parasite sponge-like animal...
unidentified		get this...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		it kills all other sea life...
		when it embeds itself on the surface.
		And they found it, apparently, late last year.
		Merv Martin, the harbormaster there, found it.
		And they are now investigating like crazy...
		to try and figure out...
		exactly what the hell this is.
		But it...
		I mean, it eats plankton.
unidentified		It eats all sea life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we've got something new.
		And while they try to figure out what the hell it is they've got...
		it's ugly, whatever it is.
		He's holding it in his hand.
		Now, I'm not saying...
		that this came from the mirror.
		Because I certainly wouldn't know that to be a fact at all.
		I'm merely calling your attention...
		to the fact that I did say...
		it's possible, in my opinion...
		that whatever was growing in mirror...
		could survive re-entry...
		and going into our ocean...
		where it would find all kinds of spiffy nutrients...
unidentified		Well...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		you know the rest, right?
		So...
		you all think about that one.
		We're...
		next hour, incidentally...
		we're going to be talking about energy...
		and...
		what we can expect...
unidentified		you know...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		what's real and what's BS...
		in terms of alternative energy.
		And you get so damn many claims...
		I do on this program...
		of people who say...
		this and that...
		is not only viable...
		but being ignored, you know...
		with the oil company police...
		keeping all the information at bay...
		and, you know...
		all the stuff we hear, right?
		We'll try and separate...
		with an expert...
		what looks real...
		in the immediate...
		alternative...
		fuel world...
		and what looks...
		not so real.
unidentified		and we'll talk generally...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		about the subject...
		and it should be...
		very, very interesting.
unidentified		Bye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that'll be Mark McLaughlin later you hear about him he's been doing writing on this for a long time all right let us take a very quick break and then we will continue open lines oh tomorrow night Richard C. Hoagland will be here in the second hour and he has a a big announcement for you he told me to tease you with exactly that line that he's
		got a big announcement for you coming up tomorrow night well all right I'm considering the implications of what happened Friday night, Saturday morning, on Friday night, Saturday morning show, I asked what I thought was a somewhat controversial but nevertheless interesting question, and it has set off an avalanche.
		I have been getting email by the thousands.
		This really is going to interest you over the weekend, thousands of emails.
		On Friday night, Saturday, just for the heck of it, I asked my audience, what would you do if you were the devil?
		What would you do if you were the devil?
		The evil one himself, Lucifer.
		And I'm trying to figure out, and I went into some big rap about, hey, look, really put yourself in his shoes.
		Before you answer your question, really put yourself in his shoes.
		And it provoked such a response.
		I'm trying to understand why it provoked such a gigantic response.
unidentified		My God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've been flooded with responses to this question.
		Maybe it's because no one ever asked it before.
		I don't know.
		I don't know.
		It's one of those questions that just somehow caught everybody's attention.
		So I guess it's a cool question.
		We'll probably get more of it.
		You know, the phones prior to the beginning of the live show were ringing off the hook.
		Just flat ringing off the hook.
		And it was trying to respond to exactly that.
		So prepare yourself.
		I imagine this half hour you're going to see some, hear some responses to that.
		It's been overwhelming.
		Why, oh, why, oh, why is this such an interesting question to respond to?
		Why are so many of you responding to it?
		What does it mean that so many of you are responding to it?
		Does it mean that we, you know, is there some general sense of people understanding really well and fast, if they were evil, what they would do and how they would subvert themselves virtually, right?
unidentified		We may have a...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I am not going to read the last names.
		They are included in the story.
		I'm going to omit the last names.
		They need not be read anyway.
		The late John Blank and his friend, the late Sal Blank, of the great state of Washington decided to attend a local Metallica concert at the George Washington Amphitheater, having no tickets.
		But having had 18 beers between them, they thought that it would be easy to hop over the nine-foot fence and sneak into the show.
		They pulled their pickup truck over to the fence, and the plan apparently was for a John, who was 100 pounds heavier than his friend, to hop the fence and then assist the friend over.
		Unfortunately, for the late John, there was a 30-foot drop on the other side of the fence.
		In other words, he thought he was going over a rather short fence and would hit the ground right away.
		He didn't hit it for 30 feet.
		Having heaved himself over, he found himself crashing through a tree.
		His fall was abruptly halted and broken, along it might be added, with his arm, by a large branch that snagged him by the shorts.
		Dangling from the tree with a broken arm, he looked down and saw some bushes below him.
		Possibly, figuring the bushes would break his fall, he removed his pocket knife and proceeded to cut away his shorts to free himself from the tree.
		Finally free, John crashed into holly bushes.
		The sharp leaves scratched his entire body, and now, without the protection of his shorts, a holly branch actually penetrated his backside.
		To make matters worse, on landing, his pocket knife penetrated his thigh.
		Now, Sal, seeing his friend in considerable pain and agony, threw him a rope and tried to pull him back to safety by tying the rope, get this part, folks, by tying the rope to a pickup truck and slowly driving away.
		Good plan?
		However, in his drunken haste or state, he put his truck into reverse and apparently crashed through the fence, landing on his friend and killing him.
		Police arrived to find the crash pickup with its driver thrown 100 feet from the truck and dead on the scene of massive internal injuries.
		Upon moving the truck, they found John under it half naked, scratches on his body, a holly stick where it ought not to be, a knife in his thigh, and his shorts dangling from a tree branch 25 feet in the air.
		So, according to this article, congratulations, gentlemen, you win.
		It is indeed, and I wish you a good morning.
		We're going to throw the lines wide open to all of you here in a moment, and it's going to be very interesting to see what it is you're calling about tonight over this next segment.
		But I think I know.
		In a moment, we'll find out.
		All right.
		Into the night and the unknown we go.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Cheerio.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
		Hello?
		Yes, if I were the devil, first of all, I would just deceive everybody's mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would trick everybody.
unidentified		Yes, I would make them believe that everything in the Bible is a lie, and I would make them believe that the Roman Catholics are the only ones in the world that have the truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would, as a devil, you would help the Catholic Church like that?
unidentified		Yes, I would.
unidentified		Because since the year 325 A.D., the devil has been deceiving the nations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Now, you see what I mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This has attracted a tremendous, just a tremendous amount of response.
		People answering it sometimes in exactly, in my opinion, the wrong way.
		I mean, if I ask you to get into the devil's shoes, you're not supposed to say, well, Fouse devil, I get down on my hands and knees and pray to God and Jesus and everything.
		Because the devil's a bad dude.
		And he's not interested in doing any of that stuff.
		Not at all.
		He's interested in subterfuge, killing, Armageddon, and harvesting of human souls.
		So if you're truly putting yourself in his shoes, I mean, you've got to move out of character a little bit.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hi.
		Hi.
		Jim Phoenix.
		Yes, sir.
		Well, if I was, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The devil?
unidentified		I think that I would deceive everybody by letting them know the truth about everything.
		And then they'd start thinking, and then the front part of their mind would start rationalizing, and their intuitive part would come to get lost.
		And after the centuries, thoughts would become darker and less light from creation would get through, and then he'd be able to surface closer to the surface.
		But can I add one to something else?
		I believe that hell is like in a black hole.
		That's the only way that you can have eternity and burn forever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would be a black hole.
		Well, according to cosmologists, there are plenty of black holes out there.
		So, yeah, I mean, it could be all right.
		Well, listen, I appreciate the call.
		I'm just sort of, you see what I'm talking about, right?
		I'm just sort of speculating on the sociological meaning of people responding this hard to that question.
		There may be a meeting there.
		There really may be a meeting there.
		An important one.
		First time caller align, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
		I just had a question for you.
		Well, you had, I guess, like about a week ago, I had asked for a couple people to call you.
		It said my name, Lindsay, in Seattle.
		Was that, I wasn't sure if I heard it right or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That I was asking for what now?
unidentified		You had asked, like, my name, like, on the air, to call about something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, unless you were in the news or there was a news story about you.
unidentified		No, it was like a...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I read some emails on the air.
		Maybe it was that.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
unidentified		Well, I'd sent you some pictures of UFOs, but I don't know if maybe that was it or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of photographs that are really, really interesting I pass on to my webmaster, and then we decide whether we're going to put them up.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Thank you very much.
		I have no idea whether I told you to call or not.
		I don't recall it specifically.
		Wildcard line, you are on the air.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		I didn't call for the devil issue, but I will answer that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just leap at the opportunity.
		Yes, I understand.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		If I were the devil, I would become a minister and a very, very highly influential minister.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe even the Pope?
unidentified		Maybe, no, I wouldn't go that direction because that kind of limits your outreach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		But it would be more along the lines of Protestant.
unidentified		But I mean, I would go full scale.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then, well, out of curiosity, let's say you attained this position of high religious power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would you do with it?
unidentified		I would then announce that I had a revelation from some entity or being that there was no God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		But the reason I called was over the weekend on Discovery Channel, one of the Discovery Networks, Digital Cable, they interviewed the assistant director of the Pope Scope in Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the telescope the Vatican muscled their way into in Arizona.
unidentified		Yeah, yes.
unidentified		And his last statement as he closed out the program was extremely interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did he say?
unidentified		He says, you would have to be crazy to believe that God would only create life on one planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did he really say that?
unidentified		He really said that.
unidentified		Amazing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, cross your heart and hope that.
unidentified		You can contact Discovery and have them bring it up.
unidentified		I was florid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, you know, add to that the fact that Sam Donaldson, as you know, has predicted this year will be the year of contact by SETI.
unidentified		Well, I see, I don't understand what the hoopla is over SETI.
unidentified		I mean, if you look at the big picture, why would aliens need to contact us when they're already here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, there's official contact and then there's unofficial contact.
		Maybe what we've been getting so far is unofficial contact.
		And they're talking about official contact.
unidentified		Well, also, like, the CIA has satellites.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you've got to ask yourself, if you were an alien, really here, track with me for a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you were an alien and you had been observing this world for 30 or 40 years, how would you feel about contacting it?
unidentified		I would not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You wouldn't contact it.
unidentified		The average human, 99% of humans are not ready.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate the call, sir.
		Thank you.
		Probably a Brookings boy.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Turn your radio off, please.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		This is Aaron in Dayton, Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Aaron.
unidentified		I was just curious if you'd heard anything about the, I don't know what government agency it is, but wanting to immunize children for hepatitis.
unidentified		And I was just curious if you thought this was related to the digital angel that I've been reading about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't know.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The digital angel, huh?
unidentified		Just a way for the big brother to keep track of this, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		Well, hmm.
		Immunizations.
		I don't know.
		Digital angel.
		I think he refers to something so small that it could be injected into your body.
		If they really had something like that and it could more or less keep track of you, why I think people would get rather upset about that, don't you?
		Imagine that.
		You go down to get an injection of something or another to prevent something you think.
		Or even just a shot of whatever to prevent some infection because you bumped into something and inside it you receive a digital angel.
		No, really, an angel.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Mr. Bell.
unidentified		This is Gary out of Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Gary.
unidentified		Hey, I wonder if you heard today about the new hydrogen car that GM announced.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I heard some about it.
unidentified		It's quite interesting, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, very interesting.
unidentified		Yeah, and it actually went beyond what I would ever have expected them to even announce at this point because it's got what might be called an independent platform, which could be adapted to sports cars, vans, all kinds of vehicles.
		And it's just a basic platform with four wheels and a hydrogen power system in the bottom, and you can snap bodies on the top of it.
		Yep, yep, yep.
		And I tell you, the guy that you really need to have on your show in these days, I don't ever heard you actually talk about him, maybe you have, but a guy named Amory Lovins from the Rocky Mountain Institute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I haven't heard of him.
unidentified		Well, he's got his own think tank.
		He wrote a number of books over the years.
		Maybe 20 years ago, he wrote a book called Soft Energy Paths, trying to convince government to convert to bio-friendly energy systems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the government is a mule.
		It's an oil mule.
		And yeah, this is, I mean, we're going to talk about this tonight.
		So, you know, hang in there.
unidentified		If you ever do a hydrogen show, though, you really should get Lovins on.
unidentified		I believe he got one of those geniuses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sir, we'll do something on hydrogen, and we'll do it tonight.
		So maybe I'll investigate this guy.
		Send me some email with some contact information.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Bye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people out there with energy things.
		And that's some of what we're going to talk about tonight.
		You know, I want to know, too.
		I am so tired.
		I am bone weary.
		I mean, bone-wear of the people with the energy claims.
		I'm sorry, but I've heard it.
		It's all talk.
		It's all hot air.
		I haven't seen one thing, even to the scale of a toy.
		And trust me, I would love to be challenged.
		Please challenge me on this and tell me I'm wrong and demonstrate to me better yet that I'm wrong.
		But I haven't seen so much as an over-unity or even unity or slightly even just a hair less than unity kind of device brought forward.
unidentified		Not really.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They all don't want to be examined.
		They all seem paranoid about the oil companies.
		And or something always falls apart.
		You know, there's some pretty big people in this country.
		Dr. Stephen Greer, for example, was obviously taken in by somebody who had a claim.
		I think he was anyway.
		He certainly never followed up on it.
		And I'm sure what happened, I'll bet what happened is that it just turned out to be a dead-end road.
		So I really do want to separate a little reality, and tonight we're going to do that from fantasy in this question of energy.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi, Art.
unidentified		How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doing okay, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Great.
unidentified		Hey, yeah, this is Ron in the San Joaquin Valley, by the way.
		I found out something kind of interesting that you may want to check into.
		I don't know what kind of software you have or what program you're using, but I'm kind of new to computers.
		Yes.
		I've been going through your galleries.
		And there's a photo in there of a UFO.
		And you personally say in there that you scan this yourself.
		Do you know which one I'm talking about?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Over the years I've scanned many, many, many UFO photographs.
unidentified		No, it's up on your website right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, fine.
		Well, the reason I say I scanned it myself is so that people understand, at least, that I have a photograph in my hand.
		It's not a digital image that somebody sent.
		It's a real photograph that I personally scanned.
		So that's all I'm guaranteeing.
		It was once in the form of a real photograph.
unidentified		One thing that's very interesting, you'll find interesting, if you have, I'm sure you have a pretty good photo studio and whatnot.
unidentified		I took it into my ArcSoft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I've just got a good Hewlett-packet scanner.
unidentified		Okay.
		Well, I'm talking about your photo software in your computer.
		Like, I've got about four different programs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I took it to ArcSoft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I, first thing I did is I zoomed in because it said you can't see a wire.
		And sure enough, you know, I'm thinking, well, somebody could have modified this still.
		And, you know, it could have been a double exposure or something.
		I don't know.
		But I don't know enough about this software.
		But one thing I found that was really interesting is I started playing around with this picture and putting flames on it and doing all kinds of funny stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And one thing I tried to do, I used this feature that's called rub.
unidentified		It's like a smear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is rub, yes, I know.
unidentified		And I put it on its lowest setting, you know, like 1%.
		Barely rubbing, and I went over the thing, over the UFO itself and all the way around it.
		And it's, I wish you could do this, or I'd be willing to send this to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is bizarre.
unidentified		What it's doing, and it's either...
unidentified		Well, it's beaming it down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you can see the beam.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		but you did that, sir.
unidentified		No, no, I didn't put anything in.
unidentified		I'm taking away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
		Oh, I see.
		I see.
		I see what you're saying.
		That's interesting.
		All right.
		Well, send it to me.
		So, if you're saying that you have found something in the photograph that is not there until you apply a particular effect, I'll be willing to look at that.
		However, once you have a picture like the one he's working with in digital form, you can do anything to it.
		I mean, you can modify it, and he was just at the beginning of learning how to use his photo program and amazed.
		But I would suggest that, well, maybe you never know.
		He might have found something, so send it along, and I'm willing to look.
		But it's likely an artifact of what you have done.
		Was it the Rockies?
		You're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Off the radio, please.
unidentified		If I was the devil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		I would get people to hate God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How would you do that?
		People love God, so how would you do that?
		You have a big job on your hands.
unidentified		Well, I would do what they did to Job, you know, make them think all the problems, it's all God's fault.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Make it out all as God's fault.
unidentified		You know, tricking, making all the problems happen to Job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, in other words, people out there, as it is, when something really goes wrong, they know how they are.
		They say they get angry for a while with God, like if somebody close passes away or that sort of thing.
		How can there be a God?
		How would God do this and all the rest of it?
		You mean like that?
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Mr. Devil would be.
		Thank you.
		There is a definite study that should be done about the fervored, and I use that word advisedly, fervored response to this question.
		First time caller, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hi, Art.
		This is Ben from Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Ben.
unidentified		Well, regarding the devil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		What I would think would be distinctive about the devil is that the devil would be motivated to actually destroy as opposed to just kind of torture or provoke.
unidentified		I think furthermore that it would be doing this by tempting people, particularly getting to acting ways that would be a weakness for them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are these things you would do if you were the devil?
unidentified		I would try to create circumstances where people would act along, would hurt each other with full knowledge that they were doing the wrong thing.
unidentified		I think it's important that the devil would also go after people, since, as far as I understand, people and who they are is much more precious to God than institutions or worldly power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounds like you've thought this thoroughly through.
unidentified		It's crossed my mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you mind if I ask a couple of questions?
unidentified		Not at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you find it hard to put yourself in the devil's shoes and begin thinking of what you would do?
unidentified		Not really, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just sort of came to you right away?
unidentified		No, not really.
unidentified		It usually began in just discussions that I would have with peers, et cetera, about what was really the nature of what was wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you mean to tell me that my question was not the first time that you've considered this at all?
unidentified		Oh, not at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
		So you've thought about this before if you were the devil.
		All right.
		I appreciate your answering the questions.
		Thank you.
unidentified		Hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now maybe we've stumbled onto some social phenomena here, folks.
		I'm not sure why everybody is reacting to that.
		And again, I think it's probably because nobody ever asked such a question before.
		That man said he's thought about it before, but I've never heard anybody ask the question, have you?
		Maybe that's why we're getting this kind of response.
		Once to the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, nobody there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off and imagine you're on the air.
unidentified		Yes, I would say that.
unidentified		I would give up take away hope from everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you were the devil.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you'd take away hope.
unidentified		Everybody would have lots of despair.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, you would place everybody, the whole world, in some kind of hopeless situation.
unidentified		Exactly.
unidentified		Oh, by the way, I'm up here in Benlark, North Dakota, listening on 550 KFIR.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Appreciate giving them a plug.
		You bet.
		What do you think?
		Something like, say, an asteroid that would hit the Earth in, say, give the Earth, what, two or three years?
unidentified		Oh, no, just general hope, because if you're all hopeless, you're all despair.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Ethereum, but if there was a five-mile-wide rock coming in Earth, there'd be a lot of despair.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Believe me.
unidentified		Well, I think people would turn to God in that sort of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You think so, huh?
unidentified		Oh, sure.
unidentified		See optimistic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
		You might be right about that.
		You might.
		I'm Mark Bellen.
		This is Coast to Coast a.m.
		We are going to be talking about energy tonight.
		And we'll see about this question later.
		It sure is.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Mark McLaughlin is coming up in a moment.
		We're going to talk about energy.
		He is a professional researcher.
		He's been a writer for 10 years, more than 200 articles published.
		Mark McLaughlin trained as a historian and cultural geographer at the University of Nevada, Reno.
		His work appears regularly in California and Nevada newspapers, was awarded the Nevada State Press Writing Award five times.
		Author of three books, McLaughlin frequently writes historical articles for magazines like Sierra Heritage, Nevada, WeatherWise, and his work will appear in the Grawl Your Education 2002 Science Annual.
		McLaughlin is a professional lecturer, frequent guest on regional TV and radio programs, and consultant for the History Channel.
		That must be fun.
		As lead writer for the Alternative Energy Institute, Inc., a nonprofit educational organization, he spent two years researching material for turning the corner energy solutions for the 21st century.
		Mark McLaughlin owns Mick Mac Printing, publishing rather, which I guess puts stuff into print, right?
		Located at Lake Tahoe, California.
		And in a moment, he's up, and we'll talk about energy.
		And now, here is Mark McLaughlin.
		Mark, where are you?
unidentified		I'm located at North Shore Lake Tahoe, Northern California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You ready to talk about energy?
unidentified		It's my pleasure to be here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Why are you interested in energy?
		I mean, what got you going in this direction, first of all?
unidentified		Well, first of all, just maybe a little bit of background information.
		I work for the Alternative Energy Institute.
		As you mentioned, we're a nonprofit educational organization.
		Began in 1998.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I said, why did you get it?
unidentified		Why did I do it?
		Personally, first of all, I'm an environmentally concerned person, and I think that's what's the most compelling issue about energy today.
		It's polluted the biosphere.
		The U.S. spends between $50 billion and $100 billion a year on health costs from air pollution.
		But just from the very beginning, even as a young person, to see the rivers polluted, I grew up back east and the rivers were polluted and the refineries and everything.
		And it's just ugly business.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		What is your, in other words, I guess I want to understand the depth of your feeling about this.
		If everything continues as is, how much environmental trouble are we in and are we causing with what we're doing?
unidentified		I think that we're in very serious environmental trouble.
		And of course, I'm not the only person.
		I mean, besides the pollution aspects, we have the very severe threat of global warming, you know, from greenhouse gas emissions, increasing the carbon dioxide, changes the weather patterns, has a very strong potential for rapid climate change, which would have tremendous ramifications for people all over the world, and mostly the people who probably can least afford it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I have a new scientist article here somewhere.
		I don't know where it is.
		I'll find it here in a minute.
		It just came out, the new scientists talking about global climate change.
		And they're talking about the Gulf Stream specifically.
		And they're talking about new measurements that show the Gulf Stream seems to be slowing up and stopping what it's doing.
		And if that happens, Europe is going to freeze, period.
unidentified		Yeah, that's a very major, that's a big trigger.
		I did not read that article, but I'm familiar with the situation.
		It has things to do with salt density in the water and temperatures.
		The Gulf Stream is part of a very deep water conveyor belt that brings much more energy and disperses it from the equator to the north than does the atmosphere itself.
		And Europe is the beneficiary of that warm stream because it has a very mild climate.
		And if those salt densities and temperature changes and affect the stream flow, it could really change the way.
		Western Europe, it may be, you know, really under the gun if that kind of a situation came about.
		And they do believe that other rapid climate changes that have occurred in the past have been fundamentally affected by that very thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, they're suggesting Europe could become exactly, that part of Europe would become the same climate as Alaska, roughly.
unidentified		More continental cold air influence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's all that keeps Europe mild, is that flow.
		That's right.
		And things are really changing.
		So these are pretty interesting stories.
		I wondered how really concerned about all of this you are.
		I mean, do you think it's a ultimate terminal issue for the world's population if something is not done?
unidentified		Ultimately, yes.
		But the most important thing to think about is that we've been producing these emissions for a long period of time.
		The carbon age has been going on for quite a long time.
		So we've put and pumped a lot of gases into the atmosphere.
		And the one thing I think it's important for us to understand that to address this issue will be a multi-generational thing.
		And it will also have to be an international community effort.
		This isn't the kind of thing if you knock out a coal plant here and you knock out an oil refinery there and okay, everything's looking rosy.
		It's going to take time to turn it around.
		But the beautiful thing about it, if you think about it, I mean, addressing these emissions, first of all, will not change the CO2 concentration, will not change the possibility for global warming and those ramifications.
		But the immediate benefits will be healthier air and less health issues impacted by air pollution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
		There's a lot of that.
		I was in Las Vegas earlier in the day.
		And in Las Vegas, it's a bowl.
		It's a pollution pot if the conditions are right.
		And they've got an inversion going on right now, an air inversion.
		And what's to be seen there is incredible.
		The air hanging over the city is seen from a distance is a dark brown cloud.
		And I mean dark brown.
		That's what I saw earlier today.
unidentified		It was like that today.
		Reno is frequently like that.
		And that's actually a situation.
		Climate and topography in the Intermountain West and in the West in general dictate stagnant air and especially in the winter where there's very little mixing.
		So any of the exhaust that's coming from your vehicles, because hey, let's face it, we all know Las Vegas is not an East Coast industrial city.
		You're looking at a lot of emissions from automobiles exhaust.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's mostly cars.
unidentified		Yeah, absolutely.
		And the fact is, when you're there, all that is being trapped underneath warm air flowing above.
		So where the animals live, the plants live, and the humans live, you're breathing in that toxic stew.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much do we know about breathing in air in Los Angeles or Las Vegas or any of the other many cities where it gets that bad, when we have inversions, when it really gets bad, and they start advising other weather, this is unhealthful.
		Stay inside.
		You know, that's what I heard him saying.
		It's unhealthful.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stay inside.
unidentified		That's a scary thing to hear.
		I know.
		And it's totally legitimate.
		There's issues with young children, elderly, people with asthma, bronchial problems.
		These are all very serious effects.
		Plus, the particulates that are also in the air, depending on their size, can become lodged deep in your lungs.
		There's a lot of health costs that, and you know, it's like we don't really think about, I mean, you think about it.
		People tell me all the time when I'm trying to explain to them the ramifications of the gasoline that they use.
		And I'm not telling people they can't drive or whatever, but I'm just telling them the cost of the use.
		And they say, well, geez, it's only a buck a gallon.
		How bad can the things be?
		But, you know, when we sell gasoline at the pump, yes, it's taxed.
		The taxes are used for a variety of things depending on the area.
		But we don't penalize the cost of that gasoline for the health costs that it's going to make on society.
		Well, that's kind of what the Europeans do.
		And I know even there where they've been tolerating high prices four or five years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how bad is it really?
		And now, here's, let's see what you do with this.
		With regard to smoking, oh my God.
		There is a campaign out there, and nearly every death you can imagine is, if anybody's ever, you know, walked within 10 feet of the cigarette, they declare it smoking-related.
		You hear a lot about smoking.
		So to put it in scale, people are breathing that air every day.
		How do they compare with regard to health risk to those who smoke?
unidentified		Truthfully, Art, I couldn't tell you.
		That's beyond my expertise.
		I do believe, however, that...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		they don't talk about it.
		So you would think there'd probably be no risk at all compared to smoking.
		Right?
		I mean, that would...
unidentified		Not necessarily.
		Not necessarily.
		I certainly don't rely on the government or state governments or the federal government to give me all my knowledge or information that I need to protect myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You listen to other sources?
unidentified		I just don't happen to be independently minded, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		All right.
		Well, this is an auspicious night to have you on.
		Why so?
		Well, because I'm going to read you something here.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is a writer's story that broke today, mentioned by a caller earlier.
		I'll just read a little bit of it.
		After 100 years of making gasoline-burning cars, General Motors Corporation sees a not-so-distant future when vehicles powered by hydrogen will revolutionize the industry and make transportation more affordable for the world's population.
		GM, the world's largest automaker, unveiled at the Detroit Auto Show on Monday a fuel cell vehicle that it said could rewrite the laws of how automakers design cars and make them much cheaper to build because fuel cells consume hydrogen and emit only water and heat.
		Automakers have talked for years about the arrival of the cleaner technology over the next decade as a way to make cars more environmentally friendly and curdale the need for foreign oil.
		GM said its so-called autonomy fuel cell car, which it says is the first vehicle designed exclusively for the fuel cell, could have a far broader impact.
		It's a long story.
		It's a skateboard-like chassis between four wheels, and I guess you can make it into anything you want.
		So this sounds like a really big step for General Motors.
		I mean, GM, I mean, they are the ones, and if they're introducing a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, that's a big, big, big story.
unidentified		Sounds like GM wrote the story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no Reuters wrote it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, it sounds a little promotional, yeah.
unidentified		Yeah, it does.
		It does.
		Let me talk about that.
		I mean, we've been hearing about the hydrogen economy for a while now.
		I mean, this isn't brand new stuff, and they're not the first ones to come out with a fuel cell-powered vehicle either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but it is GM now.
unidentified		Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it will be something we're going to see.
unidentified		Most important, I think the most important thing to think about here, first of all, because we live in a world of soundbites, and one of the problems with living in a world of sound bites, you never get the story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you give me the story then.
		If I had a hydrogen-powered car, tell me what I would have.
		Now, compare it to today's cars and what they will do, power, speed, efficiency, blah, blah, blah.
		And tell me now about a hydrogen car.
		If I had a hydrogen car, what would its abilities be?
unidentified		It would be just like the car you're driving today, except it's not using gasoline.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would it be as powerful?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would.
unidentified		I think so.
unidentified		I think once they get these things tuned up, I don't think you're going to have an issue with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would it sound like a regular gas combustion engine?
unidentified		No, it would be silent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would be silent.
unidentified		It runs on electricity.
		They're going to use that hydrogen, run it through a membrane, separate the hydrogen out, burn the hydrogen, and the remaining water and heat are just dissipated.
		The whole key here is we're going to get the hydrogen from.
		That's what I want to know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you tell me.
unidentified		You're not.
		Well, the thing is, right now we do have fuel cells that are working.
		The technology certainly exists.
		They're being, actually, you know, California had that very serious electricity supply problem last year.
		Yes.
		And so companies are starting to install them themselves.
		Hospitals have them in this.
		I mean, the technology completely works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're used in space shuttles.
unidentified		Yeah, but you know what they're running on?
		They're running on hydrocarbons.
		They're not running on hydrogen.
		They're stripping those hydrocarbons, the hydrogen out of either natural gas or gasoline or other or coal.
		They're using fossil fuels to power these things.
		Hydrogen is the ultimate coup.
		If you can run something on hydrogen, yeah, that would be great.
		It would be a non-polluting thing, but how are you going to generate the hydrogen?
		It's not found free in the atmosphere.
		It's not found free like oil.
		You know, you go to Iraq, you stick a straw on the ground, and oil shoots out.
		You know, you're going to have to use, well, the way they're doing it now is they're using fossil fuels.
		Well, excuse me, first of all, they're getting the hydrogen primarily from fossil fuels.
		Then if you said, okay, I want to run the vehicle on hydrogen, you're going to use that coal plant, that natural gas plant or a nuclear reactor to generate the power, to electrolysize water, separate the hydrogen out of the water molecule, and then you're going to have the hydrogen to distribute.
		Okay, that's all great.
		So if you think about it conceptually, you have just taken the pollution and the emissions from the tailpipe of the vehicle and put it back into the power plant.
		And we would need many more of them.
		And the emission problem would still be there today.
		would still be there.
		It doesn't answer...
		It really will come together over time.
		You know, with the actual fantasy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not computing what you're saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're saying it's, on the one hand, a great technology, and on the other, you're saying, but you can't get fuel.
unidentified		That's what you can say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why is it a great technology if you can't get fuel?
unidentified		Because I think over time, as we develop better energy sources, power generation sources that are carbonless, we will be able to generate quantities of hydrogen.
		You know who's doing it?
		Here's an example.
		Iceland.
		Iceland is a very small country, a lot of geothermal activity there.
		So they're really tapping into that.
		They're using that geothermal heat to create power, to separate the hydrogen, and they want to become a hydrogen economy.
		And Iceland could probably pull it off.
		But Iceland is Iceland.
		And the U.S. is the big boy and has a lot greater demand on those kinds of sources.
		So if you, now let's just follow this one step further.
		The fantasy will be to use clean renewable energy like solar power or wind power or biomass to make the electricity.
		To make the electricity and then create the hydrogen.
		And when the wind dies and the sun goes down, you burn the hydrogen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how much energy does it cost to create the hydrogen?
unidentified		I don't know.
		I don't know.
		I mean, exactly how you would say that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what it's going to come down to, though, isn't it?
		In other words, if you're going to manufacture hydrogen and you have to do so in burning fossil fuels, conventional fossil fuels, you're going to have to know what the ratio is.
		It's got to be economically feasible or it's an idea out the window.
unidentified		Well, that's one way to look at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's...
		You're still using fossil fuels, though, and that still puts us in a position where we're in a...
		Hold on.
		We'll be right back to you.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		All right, back now to our guest, Mark McLaughlin.
		Mark, you're back on.
		I've got a computer next to me, and people can fast blast me these little sentences.
		And Wayne says, you put your finger on the palm.
		It takes more energy to free the hydrogen than you get back from it.
		However, there is as much energy in one gallon of water, more than 300 gallons of gasoline.
		One gallon of water equals 300 gallons of gasoline if they can figure out how to do it.
unidentified		But see, the fundamental issue of using fossil fuels is still a serious problem.
		You know, the U.S. has good, you know, strong sources or vast sources or vast, I guess, is depending on how you want to look at it.
		Tremendous sources of coal, and that's local and within the country if you're thinking of national security on energy issues.
		But coal is the dirtiest of all the hydrocarbon fuels.
		The U.S. used to have as much oil as Saudi Arabia.
		We were the number one producer.
		We produced by far the greatest amount of oil for the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's a finite thing.
		Yeah, oil is a finite thing.
		It's going to be gone.
		When will it be gone?
unidentified		No one can tell you that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How come?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, when they look at prison supplies and what they could anticipate, they could still find, I hear these claims of 40 years, 35 years at present rates of consumption.
unidentified		Consumption, yeah.
		Well, you know what's kind of happening?
		Think about it this way.
		Like in the 1950s, for every barrel of energy you use, let's say you take the energy worth of a barrel of petroleum for the drilling and the pumping to find other oil.
		In the 1950s, you'd use one barrel's worth of energy and you'd pull in 50 barrels of oil.
		Now you use one barrel of energy, you're pulling in four barrels of oil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yeah.
		And one of the things that's most important, and you know, this is the other, these are all the spins, all right?
		Think about it.
		They're going To say shell oil or BP or ARCO, they're all going to say, oh, you know what?
		We're finding more and more stuff out in the Gulf.
		And yeah, we've got all this oil in the Alaskan refuge.
		But look what's happening.
		These are getting to be more and more hostile environments.
		They take tremendous more technologies.
		It's more expensive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mark, they're going to, look, even if what we all hope happens happens and they dive into alternative energy as fast as they can, unlikely as that is, they're still going to have to go up to Alaska and get that oil.
		They're going to need that oil.
		There's no argument about that.
		The only argument is whether they're going to start down the road at the same time, isn't it?
unidentified		Well, I kind of agree with you there, even though, you know, the argument is if we just improve the nation's fuel efficiency standards, we won't even need the juice.
unidentified		You know what I mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe that'll happen, too.
unidentified		I think that will happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe it will, but we still need the Alaskan oil before we are ever going to get to a conversion sufficient enough to stop what you're talking about.
		Yeah.
		Long before that, hell, we're going to need the Alaskan oil for sure.
		Even if we dive right into this.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Yeah, you could very well be right about that.
		The main thing that you want to think about, it's not about how long will the oil last.
		There's a couple things.
		One is oil, yes, we use it primarily as a transportation fuel in the United States.
		I mean, less and less they use it to generate electricity or anything like that.
		So we use it as a transportation fuel.
		We're burning it in our cars.
		And really, oil is like a feedstock for plastics and medicine and fertilizer and herbicide and pesticide.
		I mean, we need these chemicals that come from there as feedstocks for other things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The economy is based on a whole thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
unidentified		And the other part of it is, it's not like when are we going to run out?
		It's when you reach this peak of production in any finite resource.
		And, you know, all these things that we're talking about are really explained in our energy book, which is available at our website at aughtenergy.org.
		And, you know, we've got a lot of testimonials and things for your viewers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Wendy, I have listeners mostly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When do you think this peak?
unidentified		Within the next 20 years is what they say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That'll be the peak of production.
unidentified		Yeah, and after that, it just kind of ramps down slow.
		It's not like going to fall off the map.
		It'll slowly, slowly go down.
		But what's going to happen here, and this is really the most important part.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What will happen to prices?
unidentified		Slowly go up, of course.
		But it's where, who has exportable oil?
		That's the key.
		If you can produce enough oil for yourself, hey, that's all well and good.
		But Asia doesn't have any oil.
		They're going to need it from somewhere.
		The U.S., we suck up, we have 4% of the population of the world.
		We suck up 25% of the oil.
		And, you know, bring China in, Asia in, and who's going to have it?
		The politically volatile Persian Gulf.
		That's where the oil is going to, the conventional, easily accessible, inexpensive oil in the next couple of decades is going to be primarily located in the Persian Gulf.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they seem to have mixed feelings about whether they want us to have it.
unidentified		Oh, they want us to have it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, on the one hand.
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, it's the only thing that those countries have to sell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know, but there's a lot of trouble that comes along with it.
unidentified		Oil is big business, and it's also dangerous business and dirty business, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, there's really a lot of trouble.
		The whole mess over in the Far East, or in the Near East, rather, Middle East.
		God, I'll get it.
		Middle East is really the worst.
		Every president has said it.
		We'd go to war to protect the oil flow.
unidentified		Well, you know, you think that the U.S. would have put together that coalition to protect Kuwait if Kuwait didn't have any, if they weren't worried about the stability of that area and everything?
		You know, Iraq has 10% of the oil, the oil-proven oil reserves.
		And sometimes I make the joke, I say, yeah, we bomb them into oblivion.
		That way it's like the 51st state.
		I mean, they have all the oil underground.
		It's just sitting there waiting for us to get it when we need it.
		I mean, it's kind of a calloused view.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not recommending, actually, that we...
unidentified		You know, you know how this is.
unidentified		When you allow your mind to think about how things can be, we don't know everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're going to get it one way or the other.
		If we have to have it, we're going to get it.
		If it means going to a war to get it, we would go to a war to get it.
		That's what the country runs on.
		Without it, stop.
		So it's really interesting what we're doing.
		Now, let me take a giant leap and see what you have to say.
		I am barraged.
		I am beseeched by people with machines and plans and ideas to have this or that scheme or machine to produce energy.
		Virtual, they say, free energy or very near free energy or over unity.
		There are 10 million claims.
		I've been waiting years and years and years to even see a toy that would demonstrate it.
		I have not yet seen one.
		Have you?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You haven't?
unidentified		No.
		I have.
		I have met and seen the evidence of professional scientists and researchers who have data and physical evidence that show anomalous effects.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anomalous effects.
unidentified		Anomalous effects.
unidentified		They're not really explained by the present-day physics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But many times they're not repeatable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or they're not.
unidentified		Profusion is one of them, especially.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or they're not feasible economically or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you seen one where you go, oh my God, here it is, the answer?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		You know, there's Randall Mills.
		He's actually an MD, I should say, Dr. Randall Mills.
		He's got a company in, I think it's in Princeton, New Jersey.
		Guy was a whiz, got his MD from Harvard.
		In the meantime, he was taking advanced physics courses at MIT in his spare time.
		So no intellectual slacker at all.
		And he's got this thing.
		I'm still trying to figure out if it's the real deal or not.
		He's got some money behind him.
		He's got a couple utilities put in 20 mil.
		But that's small money for a utility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is the claim?
unidentified		Well what it is, he takes hydrogen, which is really the most simple atom kind of thing, and what he says is using chemical action, he reduces the state.
		You have the electron, the proton spinning around, he reduces their orbit.
		It makes it, if you can think about it, kind of denser, and by collapsing it a little bit like that, it releases tremendous amounts of energy.
		Now, when I, and I really try to approach this idea as a journalist and as a responsible researcher, and when I come upon this and I see people saying that can't be true, this is all baloney, it's a scam, and then I have other people willing to line up and buy in and other professional type people.
		I don't know what's going on with him.
		There was something happening where he was trying to get some patent work, and the U.S. Patent Office is a pain already.
		You're probably familiar with some of the things with them when it comes to these, let's say, breakthrough energy situations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, yes, yes, sir.
unidentified		And so I don't know.
		They've kind of like flipped off the radar in the last, I would say, half a year.
		So I couldn't tell you exactly what's going on, but it did raise a lot of excitement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very exciting, kind of slipped off the map.
		Haven't heard about it lately.
		That's right.
		Okay, so now there's a million people out there who say, of course it slipped off the map.
		Their attitude is the big oil companies in some way squished, broke, bought, otherwise acquired, stopped any news of this, took control of the situation.
		A lot of people believe that conspiracy theory.
		Are you one of them?
		No.
unidentified		I believe I can see easily why.
		Let me throw a caveat out there.
		I'm sure that things have happened, illegal, violent, and other things, small things.
		I don't believe there's this giant orchestrated thing.
		What it is, I think a lot of it comes down to R ⁇ D. When you get into R ⁇ D with the product or this potential innovation, you run into the obvious things that your data were flawed, you set the experiment up incorrectly, and things happen, you know.
		And as you mentioned before, is the economics about it too.
		If you can't get any money, then effectively you are shut down.
		And so things do happen, but I don't believe in this grand conspiracy idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The only way you could know for sure would be to have the black box that worked, and then you'd find out.
unidentified		Hey, I'll tell you right now, you get a black box that works, people are going to be lining up.
		I mean, if you can get...
		And one of the things that happens with a lot of these people, either individuals or outfits, professional labs who are working in this field, very reluctant to share information.
		No data comes out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, moreover, I mean, these people say if you did have the black box at work, you would be with the O, you'd be with the fishes.
unidentified		Yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so anyway, you sort of don't buy into that.
unidentified		Well, you know, I have a little bit of skepticism in me, you know, but it's hard for me to buy that, but it wouldn't surprise me if things like that do happen at certain levels.
unidentified		And of course I know that the government will come in, and under national security, the laws are on the books if they believe that you have something and they think it's going to upset the balance of the status quo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, wait a minute.
		If you had a black box, we'll just call it that for a while.
		No, but black box produce energy.
		Yeah, whatever it is, it produces energy.
		It's just a generic term.
		You've got the black box.
		The government, you're saying they could put it under the banner of national security.
unidentified		Yeah, there's a law in the books from the 50s, I think, made right after World War II.
unidentified		It's a secrecy thing, and they have used it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute, though.
		What justification would there be?
		Such a thing would save society's butt.
		So what would be the national security implication of it, please?
unidentified		Well, you'd have to look at each individual example, but it would be something that they felt pretty much carte blanche.
unidentified		If the government wants what you have, they can come and get it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something that would threaten the oil companies, would that be national security?
unidentified		It wouldn't surprise me if it was.
unidentified		Wouldn't surprise me if it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We live and breathe oil in this country.
unidentified		It's in our blood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oil in our blood, yes, I suppose.
		All right, let's turn our attention for a minute to things that we know are out there.
		I have other energy sources where I live here.
		I have wind energy and I have solar energy.
unidentified		That's your house, you mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have so much of it that I can power my entire house with it.
unidentified		24 hours a day?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		That's great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
		But it's a lot of money.
		Yeah, I know.
unidentified		It's expensive to get in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and so these two technologies, where do we stand with wind and where do we stand with solar, the cost of solar panels and the cost of manufacturing solar panels, by the way?
		Manufacturing them would be a monstrous job that would require a lot of fossil fuels.
		So how about what we do have now, wind and solar?
		What do you say?
unidentified		Wind is by far the best one right out there now.
		Solar is actually the most expensive.
		Wind power in some areas of the country, and this country has a lot of wind potential.
		It's coming down to near nickel for a megawatt, and that's what you're getting for a megawatt hour or whatever.
		That's what you're getting for coal-produced electricity in some areas.
		So wind power really has a lot of potential.
		And that's why the Europeans have now taken over.
		The U.S., it wasn't even that long ago, the U.S. led the world in solar photovoltaic technology development and wind power.
		Now Western Europe's all over it.
		Japan's blowing us away in solar.
		These countries see that the future economies, even though we know that these decentralized renewable technologies are inadequate to replace oil, they will be part of the growing economy and there's jobs involved and everything else.
		But you know what's interesting?
		You just said, you're down in southern Nevada.
		Nevada ranks 21st out of the 50 states for wind potential.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, it's really good.
		Where I am is if you look on a map and you'll look specifically at where I am, we are in a particularly high wind zone.
		They rate the zones.
		And I'm in a particularly high wind zone for Nevada.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that's one thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the other is I'm also in an extremely high, although our weather right now would defy what I'm about to say, husbandifying it, but we have generally cloudy days you could count on maybe three hands if you have three hands.
unidentified		Hey, Nevada's the driest state in the country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, very low humidity.
		All of this favorable to both solar and wind, which is one of the reasons that I proceeded with what I did.
		But it still is not economically really feasible.
		It's just not.
		Now maybe wind.
unidentified		Well, it's not compared to the price you're paying for your electricity now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		That's the one thing you have to remember.
		Hydrogen is not fossil fuel.
		It's an energy carrier.
		Hydrogen and electricity are going to be like the sisters in the future is the idea.
		But let me just show you one of the things.
		Now, Nevada, we know has the potential for the solar because it's so sunny all the time.
		And as you said, there are areas that have very good wind potential.
		There's no commercial electricity being generated in Nevada at this time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, there was a proposal, I don't know where it is, to build a gigantic, immense wind farm where I am here in Nevada.
		Oh, yeah, in this area.
		A proposal to just build this incredible, incredible wind farm.
		Yes.
		A monstrous thing.
		I don't know where the proposal is now, but they were talking about it.
unidentified		Was this a long time ago or a few years ago?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
		Fairly recently.
		But I don't know where it went.
unidentified		You can see more and more.
		California has a tremendous amount of wind potential because of the gaps in the mountains and the winds, onshore winds.
		You know, you're going to run into people who don't like the aesthetics of it and this, that, and the other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ethnological groups that bitch about the birds hitting it.
unidentified		Yeah, they're figuring that out.
		I mean, they put them in flyways and they do say, yeah, I mean, they're not doing that.
		We can figure things out how to kind of ameliorate some of these issues, you know.
		But this definitely has to be done.
		Now, I'm really impressed that you feel like you can be pretty much disconnected from the grid that you have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's great.
		In fact, when power failures occur in the neighborhood, I don't even know they've occurred.
		I actually don't know they even happen until I happen to look and I see all my neighbors gathered around, you know, looking up here and wondering why there's light up here nowhere else.
unidentified		Does the Nevada utility allow you to have your meter run reverse when you have enough power to put back in?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll have to talk about that in a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We will, too, all right?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stay right there.
		I'm our bell.
		Yes, of course.
		In the nighttime, it's coast to coast A.M. It certainly is, and I certainly did screw up, so you're going to get treated to a little bit more commercial activity than you normally would in the next hour.
		My fault.
		And here we go.
		Okay, let's talk about this for a second with Mark.
		Are you there, Mark?
unidentified		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let me tell you my little story here.
		I did this because I think for the following reasons.
		Number one, because I could, because I think it's really cool to produce your own energy.
		I did it with full knowledge that I was spending money that I really wasn't going to be able to recoup probably in my lifetime.
		And I did it because of probably, far down the line, some sort of actual honest concern for our ecology.
unidentified		That's the best reason I've ever seen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Those are the reasons.
		But you know what?
		There was not a good financial reason to do it.
		And I did some serious checking.
		We've got a power co-op here, and what I'm going to say doesn't reflect negatively on them, or I don't mean it to.
		But, for example, I checked into what you said, hooking up to the grid and selling power back to the power company.
		I thought about that, and so I called them.
		And are you interested in what they said?
unidentified		Yeah, I know I think in Nevada makes it pretty hard to do, but go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, it's individual.
		This particular co-op is one.
		And what they said was, yes, there is provision for this, but it would require that we come out and install a new meter, another meter, which, of course, you have to pay for it.
		Sure.
		And then they would pay me wholesale.
		In other words, as I sold power to them, they would pay me the wholesale price, the same price they pay other people who sell them power.
		That's what they would be willing to pay.
		And so I balanced that.
		These are the things you do if you really have a system like mine.
		So I balanced that against just instead using the power myself, and I would, in effect, then be offsetting their retail rate.
		So for me to sell it to them wholesale is really stupid.
		Instead, I'd be better off using it, which I am myself at what amounts to the retail rate.
		So you can't say that what I did was smart economically or any other way.
		You just have to sort of imagine that I'm a little bit of a geek and I thought it'd be cool and I had the resources and so I went and did it.
		But I couldn't recommend to anybody that it's a great idea economically because it's not.
		What do you say?
unidentified		It depends.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why what?
unidentified		it depends on where you live in the Sacramento area they have the Sacramento Municipal Utility District they'll fork out 50% of the cost of a $10,000 solar array and really what they're using are shingles that are actually you know you've seen them and they'll come out and they'll lay them on your house and everything they will put up the five grand to pay for the first for the ten thousand of the cost of the system and then give you a low interest loan for another ten years to pay off the balance uh-huh and why are they doing that they're the
		most aggressive utility in the world for solar power.
		This particular...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why, I ask again, why are they doing that?
unidentified		Oh, I think it's all business for them.
		You know, it's...
		Why not?
		They're still going to be able to sell out all the electricity that they can possibly have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm just wondering how it makes economic sense for them to do that.
unidentified		Oh, well, I don't necessarily know that it actually does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, yeah.
unidentified		You know, if you pay a surcharge on your fuel bills and your energy bills, and part of that money goes towards the utilities'public awareness campaigns and things of that nature, see, I think it's the wrong...
unidentified		I mean, it's the nuts and bolts of a capitalist society to look at it economically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is how I'm trying to look at it.
		And if it doesn't make economic sense for them to do that, I mean, to applaud them for doing it and so forth.
		but it's not going to be widespread.
		Right.
		So this kind of thing isn't going to
		to be financially feasible or is not financially really feasible except in a special case like that yet so how's anything going to change one way you get congress all right i know this is a bad start you get congress to mandate that the u.s government which is the largest consumer of energy in this country mandates that they have to buy 20 percent of their juice from renewable power sources once you do that that
unidentified		That means companies are going to start ramping up.
unidentified		This is what they did with the microprocessors and the silicon chips.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's just going to cost the taxpayer money, though, right?
		I mean, you're going to be subsidizing something that really ultimately isn't profitable right now.
		Well, maybe initially, and then it becomes economically feasible as they start to pump them out and the prices come down, the effectiveness of the technology becomes better with the investment.
unidentified		You know, it's what they did with the silicon wafer for the computer.
unidentified		The military and the government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so then what it comes down to is you're saying that this generation and maybe even the next generation is going to have to pay for the future of a couple of generations, at least two or three down line, where it finally becomes economically feasible, what's been done.
		Until then, we're going to fork over the bill for the fact that it's not really economically feasible at all.
		If we start on that path.
		I'm sorry to be hitting you with such tough questions, but I mean, that is a truth, isn't it?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		So what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, look, Art, I don't have any children, but I've got brothers and they've got their children and such.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's not like I'm stopping here in the sense that I don't care about what's down the road.
unidentified		So what do we do?
unidentified		Like, what does our generation do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's say the last two after, let's say, the 20th century generation, not the 21st century people coming along now.
unidentified		Let's say the last two generations.
		And here we have, we're sucking up all the oil.
		We're polluting the atmosphere.
		We're an indulgent, hedonistic party.
		I agree.
		You know, why, well, why should we be able to do that?
		And then when we die off, we've left crap behind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, because we can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And, uh...
unidentified		But is that the right choice?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		You made, you cost money to do what you did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		You did it for, you did it for a good reason.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		Not necessarily.
		I did it because I thought it was cool.
		I did it because...
unidentified		That was one of your reasons, you said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was, well, that was actually above the ecological reason.
		I'm telling the honest truth here.
		And I really did look at this all very carefully before I did it.
		So it was slight madness, to be honest with you, to do it.
		But I'm not sorry I did it.
		I'm happy with it.
		I love it.
		It's like a pet that I have out there.
		I love it.
		I won't deny that.
		But it's more of a...
		It's like...
		It's like a...
		I don't know.
unidentified		Do you use the system to charge batteries and then use it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I use it for everything.
		Look, you can fall in love with stuff like this.
		That doesn't mean that it's economically feasible.
		And my larger point here is, and it really is the larger point, that if all of this is not economically feasible, to talk this generation into forking over big dollars, to subsidize something that's not going to pay off for two more generations, brother, good luck.
unidentified		Let's change the equation.
unidentified		Let's make it economical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's penalize fossil fuel use.
unidentified		And let's reward renewable power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, so raise the taxes on fossil fuel usage, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is what you're talking about?
unidentified		One way, yeah.
		That's right.
		And...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Make gas $3 a gallon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right?
unidentified		If you can handle the riots.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's my point.
unidentified		I know.
		Hey, what?
		I know.
		But, you know, see...
		Well, you're right.
		You know what?
		It almost always does come down to the wallet.
		It almost always does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not almost.
unidentified		Well, always.
		Okay.
		But the thing is, you know what?
		We have to be looking forward.
		Oh...
		Geez, we spend $100 billion a year for that Persian...
		for imported foreign oil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		You know?
		That's some serious dough.
		We spend $100 billion a year on the health costs from the fossil fuels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		That's some serious dough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but we're really living comfortable lives.
		Oh, you bet we are.
		at the i kind of think we're at the apex you know at the pinnacle uh-huh i don't know but uh you know there's yeah when if you get if you just want to make it into dollars and cents and you're not willing to address you know trying to compensate for like the well-established fossil fuel industry is already in there.
		So now you've got some up-and-coming good, clean, decentralized renewable power sources, technologies that do work.
		And maybe it's not as cheap as it seems that coal is if you if you you know if you don't consider all the other ramifications But it doesn't mean it shouldn't be implemented.
		Yeah, I know.
		I know.
unidentified		I mean you're playing devil's advocate and that's fine with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
unidentified		I don't have a problem with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, unfortunately, though, I think in this case, I'm right.
		In other words, about what will happen.
		I'm sorry, but I believe that I'm right.
		If you could present me with evidence that there was an economic reason to do something other than what we're doing, then we would do it.
		We would say otherwise we're dreaming and wishing and hoping.
unidentified		Okay, here you go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The world community all comes together, not the U.S., but the world community, and I know this is another pipe dream.
		The world community comes together, like they did with the Kyoto Protocol.
		You sound like a beauty contestant answering a question.
		World peace.
		The world comes together.
		All right.
		Continue with saying.
unidentified		Hey, hey, hey, we know what we're talking about here.
		Yes.
		But they already have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The international community has shown that they have been able to hammer out some kind of international agreements to redeal with greenhouse gas emissions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which we promptly bowed out of.
unidentified		We walked away.
		We're going to be back.
		You know, you can't just be the only, we're the largest polluter, and here we are not even paying attention to the game.
		You know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And of course, what's anybody, you're going to say, oh, well, geez, what's anybody else going to do to this country?
unidentified		And you're right.
unidentified		I mean, what are they going to do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you, here's something that's very, here's the sense of optimism in this dark topic we're mired in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The European community has just elected their new president for the period of time, I believe it's the president of Spain.
unidentified		And it'll be the leader of the European community.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And their three main points of agenda are sustainability, environment, and climate change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so the Europeans are showing some very forthright and aggressive action.
unidentified		I don't know how they're actually going to pull it off.
		Germany has outlawed nuclear power.
		They intend to phase it out.
		Right now, they get 32% of their electricity from nuclear power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you how they're going to pull it off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're socialists.
unidentified		They still need a white bulb.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But they're socialists.
		That's how they're going to pull it off.
		They're going to use this incredible amount of taxation that they have.
		And what is a gallon of gasoline over there?
		It's $4 or $5.
		Oh, you bet.
		They're going to use that to do it.
		And they've got the money to do it because they're socialist states.
		Here, supply and demand dictates the price of oil.
		Period.
		Period, period, period.
		That's supply and demand.
		And so it is where it is right now.
		And that's all there is to it.
		I know you scare me because, I mean, I realize you're an open-minded individual.
		I am.
unidentified		And I believe that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I'm also a realist.
unidentified		Yeah, I know.
		I know.
		I'm pragmatic, too.
		I mean, I am.
		And it is.
		It's a frustrating thing.
		And that's the whole thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you just want status quo, look at, geez, look at Bush Cheney's 2002 natural energy policy.
unidentified		Talking about status quo.
		I know.
		Let's dig out the coal, baby.
		Drill more oil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know where they're going to find it.
unidentified		Not in this country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've got Alaska.
unidentified		Yeah, that's a short shot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the Middle East will keep pumping for a while.
		There's Russia now.
		Russia's got an awful lot of oil, and that has not been explored because they don't have the money to build the things to do it.
		That's right.
		So, I mean, there still is oil around.
		I just...
		Do you think this is like crying wolf about how important this is?
		No, I don't.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		I just wanted to get to the grit there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't.
		Okay.
		I think your wolf cry is absolutely justified.
		I just think you're a howl in the night.
unidentified		Tom, tell me about it.
unidentified		I feel like I'm just spitting in the wind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you are.
		You are.
		I mean, everything you're saying, when you boil it down, goes against everything we're doing right now.
		Our whole produce and consume economy is based on what we're doing, and what you're talking about would tear all of that shredded, sort of.
unidentified		It's a flagrant abuse of the natural resources and lots of things, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I know, I mean, we're discussing this now, and maybe we're not getting calls, I don't know.
		Oh, I could take nothing but calls.
		I'm enjoying this a lot right now.
		But there are, I mean, I talk to people like I'm talking to you, and there really are many people that are concerned about this, you know.
unidentified		They're concerned about the environment.
		They're connected.
		They're concerned about their children.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm one of their grandchildren.
		Yeah, I'm one of these people.
		It's just, it's just.
unidentified		How do you beat the system, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mark, I see what's happening, and you can talk at the edges of this, but the bottom line is what I said it is, and for this country, anyway.
		And I know what they're doing in Europe, and I know what it's costing, and I know how they're doing it.
		I mean, they're not like we are.
unidentified		No, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		A little bit like apples and oranges.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A little.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, if you get down with me and get realistic, do you honestly think any of this is really going to begin happening here anytime soon?
unidentified		Yeah, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it's going to happen just the way it is now.
unidentified		Slowly.
unidentified		Here's a scary thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I read Bush's energy plan, the 20-year program.
		Right now, the U.S. gets less than 1% of its energy, electricity we're talking about, electricity from non-hydro sources.
		Meaning, let's talk about wind power, solar power, this, that, the other.
unidentified		Less than 1%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In his plan, by 2020, the U.S. will be generating, renewables will be generated, non-hydro renewables will be generating 2%.
		And I had to write a critique for our outfit for that.
		And I opened my critique saying, you know what, it's a very pragmatic plan.
		I mean, but some of that's unacceptable, and that's one of them, I believe.
		You know, I just think that that's just, I don't know, it's just not willing to address the issues.
		And I know, but if you just want to talk about the money, then geez I mean what are we you know is it all just money we are what we are yeah I know but I I do think there's a lot of people that care and and why do you think GM's so fired up about putting out that vehicle I don't know after hearing what you said about hydrogen I don't have the slightest idea I felt like I burst the bubble there you know plus the fuel cells themselves use you know platinum and things are very expensive metal and
unidentified		And they're a little bit pricey.
unidentified		But over time, they will come down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, they probably are better and more fuel efficient.
unidentified		Like, we didn't talk about the hybrid vehicles, you know, that are out now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you are.
		That's good.
		I would like to talk about the hybrids.
		I have most of my driving, even though I have two, we have two other cars that are sort of muscle cars that I have because I like them.
		So, there, I get a lot of criticism about that.
		I don't care.
		Most of the time, 90% of our driving, I have a Geo Metro.
		And we do 90% of our driving in that Geo Metro.
		The only time we drive the other cars is for pure D, power beneath me fun, if you follow.
unidentified		Got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we do it here in Nevada.
		I'm not going to lie to you.
		It's fun.
		You get a muscle car going.
		It's a lot of fun.
unidentified		Yeah, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But 90% of our driving is in a Geo Metro that we own.
		And we love this car.
		We love this car.
		And it gets many, many, many miles per gallon.
		Yes.
		And they have, by the way, discontinued the Geo, which really kicked me off.
unidentified		Oh, I didn't know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they have.
		It's sickening.
		My wife and I swear it's because it's too damn good.
		It lasts too long.
		It uses too little good.
		The mileage was too good.
		You know, I have all these conspiracies.
unidentified		The manufacturers can't make enough money off of it because it lasts too long.
		Yeah.
		And then the oil companies don't get in your pocket either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what my wife and I are saying to each other.
		I mean, why in God's name would they discontinue as good a car as this?
		But now there are these hybrids coming.
		And I'm thinking maybe that'll be my next car.
		When we get back from the break, I want you to try and convince me that it should be my next car.
		Okay?
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Good.
		Stay right there.
		Mark McLaughlin is my guest, and we're having a hard-nosed conversation about energy.
		Can you handle it?
		How are you all doing this morning?
		We're talking with Mark McLaughlin about energy.
		And if you'll stay right there, there's much more ahead.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that catches me up.
		And, yeah, of course we can go to calls.
		We're going to do that.
		The final hour usually is when we do that.
		In the meantime, I seem to be having, I'm sure, from his point of view, fun torturing Mark McLaughlin.
		All right.
		Well, so when my Geo Metro expires, we'll have like a burial for it, and we'll be really sad and all the rest of it.
		And my wife and I have been talking about, well, how about a hybrid?
		I wonder about the hybrids.
		So maybe you can tell me about the hybrids.
		What is going to be available?
		What's the upsides?
		What's the downside?
		What's the deal?
unidentified		Well, the first thing I think that we should say is what a hybrid vehicle really is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it?
		It's a combination gasoline, internal combustion engine, just like you're driving right now.
		Right.
		And electric propulsion in the sense that the engine's going to use the gasoline, which has the really high, strong power density.
		It's going to use the gasoline to get you accelerated and get your momentum going.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then they will use some batteries to run little electric motors that will maintain your momentum.
		And then when you want to come to a stop, you will use low-resistance rolling tires.
		And then when you bring the vehicle to a stop, the brakes will convert that momentum back into electricity to put back into the batteries for when, when you start you're on your way again.
		Sounds smart.
		Yeah, and the beauty of it is, all right, is the fact, and I sound like a chauffeur.
		No, no, go right ahead.
		I want to know about these things.
		Yeah, no, the thing about them is it's basically a hybrid of the kind of technology that we've been using for 100 years, and they've just tweaked it up a little bit by making it much more energy efficient with the electric backup system.
		Okay.
		And I think that I've driven the Toyota Prius, and I thought it was a very nice car.
unidentified		It wasn't very quiet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard that sometimes those regeneration braking systems can be a little bit clumsy or clunky kind of, but I didn't find that to be a problem with this one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It operated just like a regular car?
unidentified		Yeah, pretty much.
unidentified		Yeah, I really had no complaints.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the beauty of it is you're looking at 60, 70 miles to the gallon for a gallon of gasoline.
		80 to 70 miles for a gallon.
		Yes.
unidentified		And that could get better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, how about the batteries?
		Everybody said, well, every couple of years, you're going to have to replace the batteries.
		Yes?
unidentified		Don't know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's one criticism that I hear about it, that you'll have to replace the batteries, and that's pretty expensive.
unidentified		And the batteries are super expensive?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty expensive proposition, I suppose.
		I don't know.
		That was going to be one of my questions for you.
unidentified		That I don't know.
unidentified		Yeah, I'd have to look into that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		ever have to plug this car in, in other words, if somehow You don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, it's totally independent, using only that much gasoline, and then all of the energy that's collected in the various ways is dumped right back into the batteries and used at cruise speeds.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a pretty cool concept.
unidentified		It's an awesome concept.
		And it's here today.
		And they're pretty affordable.
		The only thing that my concern is now, your local mechanic.
		You know, I never want to get on a prototype, if you know what I mean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I surely know what you mean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're out there now, and I think over time they're going to become mainstream in a lot of ways, I think, because it's too easy to do it, I think, in that sense.
unidentified		The battery option.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you happen to know what the projected cost for these when they're available or I guess they're available now to the consumer?
unidentified		Yeah, I've been looking, they're like low 20s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Low 20s.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean you can get some that are more expensive and you know as they start making more of them it should come down.
		Well that's that's within reason.
		That's within reason.
		Let's see 70 miles to the gallon, huh?
unidentified		Yeah, 60, 70.
unidentified		And what about the emissions price?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Obviously, obviously.
unidentified		And that's a good thing too.
unidentified		I know it's not money, but it's still a good thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know any of the technical aspects of they're using lead acid batteries?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, okay.
		No, I don't.
		You don't.
		See, the one thing about my job is I'm going to have a broad, I can paint a broad stroke, but when we get into specifics, and I mean, I wrote the book, the Turning the Corner Energy book, and it's, I mean, I know pretty much what's in here, but I didn't go into the specifics about each an individual thing because you can't get too bogged down.
		But that is one really important point.
		Batteries will take generally X number of charge cycles.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then their history.
		Their history, yes.
		So do me a favor between now and whenever we might talk again and find out how long the batteries last and what they cost, because that's got to be factored into it.
unidentified		Makes sense.
unidentified		That makes sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you buy one of these?
		I would, yes.
		But I bet you'd ask that question first, wouldn't you?
		Sure.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, I went into it as like in a reporter's mentality at first to see if the thing was really even, was it really even real?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because it's like, you know, I've looked at lots of different battery-operated vehicles, and that battery technology just never happened.
unidentified		And that's why nobody's getting them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, they're improving battery technology all the time.
unidentified		Incrementally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, listen, we're getting some pretty big jumps, actually, in storage capacity.
		But if it's still that anyway, I need to understand more about that.
		It does look like a pretty good technology to you, though, generally.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because I think a lot of it is based on existing tried and true kind of stuff.
		You know, the more you go and that leap of faith, the more things that seem to turn up.
		All right, since you follow the journalistic, or from a journalistic point of view, this whole thing, big, big news this last summer about California.
		And, you know, they had their blackouts and rolling blackouts.
		And, oh, even Las Vegas had a rolling blackout.
unidentified		Yeah, I heard you had one down there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was amazing.
		Yes.
		It was amazing.
		I mean, people here were, they were walking around with their mouths wide open because they couldn't believe it.
		Las Vegas doesn't have a power outage.
		Nothing stops Las Vegas.
		And it happened.
unidentified		They figured that Hoover dried up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know about that.
unidentified		No, I know what you mean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, anyway, we were all caught up in this thing that happened in California.
		You know, they get a cold, Nevada sneezes, so I guess we see you get something by default.
		I thought it was ironic from a personal level that, because in California, the rolling back out, and I understand businesses, I mean, that's some businesses, and this may be a really, really big deal, but for the average guy to have the power go out for one hour during the course of the day is such a whipout mode?
		Absolutely catastrophic.
		What countries in the world get electricity for one hour a day?
		It was catastrophic for a lot of businesses in California.
		It really was.
		It was especially young.
		Oh, man, it was incredible.
		Anyway, my question is, what do you know?
		Is this going to happen again this coming summer?
		Is this going to be a common occurrence?
		Or since all the news about all of this has dried up, does that mean it was an aberration and it's not going to happen anymore?
unidentified		No, but also California was kind of a special case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I do want to make one minor correction here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As you said this summer, maybe the Vegas blackout was like in July or something.
unidentified		I forget what month that was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the California blackout for the summer did not come to fruition because a variety of reasons.
unidentified		The two primary ones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, then it was the spring.
		I mean, what I'm saying is temperatures really began going through the roof, and that's when the big strain hit.
		I remember that much anyway.
		Temperatures were incredible.
		And so I'm asking, number one, is it going to happen again?
unidentified		It can, yes.
unidentified		But several things have changed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One of them is, first of all, conservation in the state of California anyway was tremendous.
unidentified		It was like 12 or 15 percent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think Governor Davis asked for 8 percent, and he got a lot more than that.
unidentified		So that was nice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Plus, some new power generation plants have come online since then.
		And they are really the two fundamental aspects.
		It doesn't mean that the situation certainly isn't over permanently.
		I remember stories about power companies were going to go completely broke, right?
		They were going to declare bankruptcy, all kinds of things.
unidentified		Oh, that's still on the table.
		Edison, Conrad Edison.
		And yeah, that's, no, they're still in court.
		All that stuff is still happening now.
		They say, you know what, who's going to pay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The waypayers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's only, I hate to bring it back to where it was, but in the end, it's going to be a matter of money, right?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the one thing about California is it has the worst air pollution in the country in general.
		So less than one half of 1% of the electricity generated in the state comes from oil or a gasoline product or something like that.
		The fact is, and you know how the mentality of Californians are, not going to build any of that dirty stuff here.
		So California imports more juice from all the Western states.
unidentified		It doesn't produce its own.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has to import it.
		So it's susceptible in that respect.
		And in the deregulation process, it's very complicated.
		I don't really understand.
		But what it boils down to, though, Mark, is that California then was punished severely for its good environmental ways.
unidentified		By poor vision.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But isn't that generally right?
		In other words, you were right.
		We're not going to put any of that dirty stuff here.
		And they did.
		So they didn't build plants and all the rest of it.
		And so they were environmentally friendly and economically it slit their throats.
unidentified		Yes.
		Yes.
		Well, hmm.
		Hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, okay, now see, now what's happening is they're going to be building, and of course these things take time, but they're going to be building natural gas generation power plants.
unidentified		That's the new phase.
		That's the new phase.
		And here I just wanted to bring this up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's very interesting when you read the Bush-Cheney energy policy for the next 20 years.
		Of course, their administration, whoever, well, they'll be here for, you know, they'll get their shot, maybe one more who's going to be able to do that.
		But natural gas is fossil fuel, too, right?
unidentified		It's the queenest one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but it's fossil fuel.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And here, I know a guy who is a well-respected geologist, retired professor out of Oregon.
unidentified		And his sources, and of course I don't know who his sources are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I always wanted to ask him about these particular ones, but he's got a couple books.
unidentified		His information is very good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He says that by the time these natural gas plants are put online in the United States over the next 10 years, there won't be enough gas for a third of them.
		And if you look at the Bush-Cheney plan, he doesn't talk about natural gas very much because of that very reason.
		You figure natural gas shadows oil.
		President Bush is doing a fabulous job.
		Most Americans think as President of the U.S. We're talking about Adams.
		I know he's got very, very high marks right now as a president.
		You know that.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You also know that he's an oil guy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so then, what do you expect?
unidentified		I guess I got what I expected, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, the point was that he pushed, his plan pushes coal and more domestic drilling for oil.
		Not exactly the cleanest emitter of coal, right?
		But he doesn't talk about natural gases, which you would want to think because that's the cleanest of the fossil fuels.
unidentified		We don't have it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, but maybe that's why he doesn't talk about it.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm trying to bring that.
		That's exactly right.
		That's all the point I was trying to make, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's just being realistic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If we don't have enough, then what's the point of talking about that as something we can do?
unidentified		Because we're building 125 of them.
unidentified		That's why.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's like the great answer, but I don't know if we'll have enough to keep them going.
unidentified		You know what I mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's not the great answer.
unidentified		No.
unidentified		And what happened with the electricity prices?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were reflecting, one, the providers' spikes because they weren't controlled.
		Two, the cost of natural gas went through the roof, and California generates its electricity through natural gas, a lot of it, a lot of it hydro too, but a lot of it natural gas.
		And when the natural gas spikes in temperature, that goes right into the cost of the electricity.
		All right.
		Let's cover a few things.
		Is cold fusion a dead end?
unidentified		It's still happening.
unidentified		There's guys all around the world working on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there have been real, as we talked about, anomalous results in the sense of excess heat and different things, but it's very hard to replicate.
unidentified		It's taking a long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you bring it up like you're trying to work on it, you're excommunicated.
unidentified		You know, you can't get your, in a peer-reviewed journal.
unidentified		Why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because it's like you're a pariah when you talk about it.
		Once again, it's going against the status quo.
		Why?
		Why are you a pariah?
		If you're in an institution, either governmental, academic, or whatever, you've got your whole thing.
unidentified		You've got your whole world paradigm all locked up.
unidentified		You figure out how everything's supposed to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And somebody comes along and says, oh, you know, I was able to do that stuff at home in the garage.
unidentified		And that changes things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the main thing would happen to, and you probably know the story, Pons and Fleischman come out, they said, look, this is what we did.
		They released their information at a press conference, which is unprecedented.
		MIT come out and says, look, we tried to do it with the information we had.
		It failed.
unidentified		It turns out they smudged that information, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, and Pons and Fleischman took off to Europe.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they kind of blew it in a lot of ways in that respect.
unidentified		But it didn't stop the...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anomalous results not good enough.
unidentified		You're saying it's going to be a commercial application.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm asking if you know whether it is viable enough that that's what it will become, yes?
unidentified		I don't think anybody knows that yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nobody knows.
unidentified		No.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I know some people that I respect highly who believe it's something worth pursuing.
		Well, I do too.
		I just thought you might have some insight.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I wish I had, you know, all this kind of inside information about all these wonderful things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And in a sense, it's...
unidentified		Oh, I'll tell you, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you'd have to be killed.
		Disposed of immediately with prejudice, so that's why you don't have to kill.
		Hey, but once I got it out to all your listeners, then it wouldn't matter if you killed me.
		Yes, it would.
		Because then you couldn't go on other shows.
unidentified		Oh, well, that could be...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People would say, you know, just like...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would go where the carburetor that gets 1,000 miles per gallon went.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wherever in the hell that is.
unidentified		Well, you know, I've been to a couple energy conferences, and I noticed one particular gentleman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, we're not talking names or anything, and he has a gizmo that he uses on an internal combustion engine that he pours soda into it, and it runs, or different kinds of non-hydrocarbon fuels.
		And what was really funny because a friend of mine, when he got back from the conference, and we all watched the motor run for a little bit and this kind of a thing, but he went back and says, you know, I went to my local store and root beer is way more expensive than gasoline, which was pretty funny, I thought.
		Yeah.
		All right.
		Well, what about other out there sort of things right now?
		I don't know.
		People are working on, in other words, if we, for example, did something with gravity, if we learn some secret about gravity there's got to be an energy source there somewhere right absolutely and more specifically I think propulsion systems and such are we working on that NASA's got their NASA's spending money on it you know there was this guy from Russia who started working as in a as a grad student in Norway a guy from Russia we'll pick it up there after the top of the hour all right you got it good
		There was this guy from Russia.
		I'm Art Belt.
		All right, as a quick little addendum to our conversation about these hybrid cars coming up, you know, I'm pretty attracted.
		John in Colorado Springs says, Art, they use, according to the Ford HEV website, nickel metal hydride batteries, and they are amazing batteries.
		He goes on to say, it'll last the life of the vehicle.
		Toyota says battery can be charged tens of thousands of times.
		Now, I make very heavy use of nickel metal hydride batteries.
		They're amazing, amazing batteries, but I have never until now heard of tens of thousands of charge cycles.
		I tend to doubt that, but if it's on their website, maybe it's true.
		And if it is true, if the manufacturer of nickel metal hydrides of that capacity doesn't in itself cost environmentally dearly, then we're really on to something here, and a vehicle like this really would be a gigantic jump for all of us.
		And so maybe, you know, I guess I'm looking down the right road.
		I mean, we're really thinking about buying one, so it sounds cool to me.
		Mark, maybe it is the answer for the most immediate future, huh?
unidentified		Well, that was good news about the batteries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I didn't know myself, and if it's true, that may not be as big a factor as we were worried about.
		All right.
		Well, listen, I am going to turn you over to the hordes, to the minions, to those who have no doubt questions for you.
		You ready for that?
unidentified		I think I can try.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here it comes.
		First time caller line, you are on the air with Mark McLaughlin.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello, Mark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		My name is DG.
unidentified		I'm calling from CGOB lifting area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's where?
unidentified		Central Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Central Canada.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		I'm an undergraduate student.
unidentified		I'm studying environmental sciences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
unidentified		I read a white book.
		It was published jointly with Congress and Vatican.
		It had a model of world events leading up until now.
		It was published in 1967.
		For a population model, there are only a half million people out, but for the fuel consumption, the white book said we're only about eight years away from total petroleum exhaustion.
		Do you see any future for new sources that are viable in the near future?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's first of all address that.
		Do you think that's true or false?
		Eight years away from total exhaustion?
		No, I don't buy it.
		No?
		No.
unidentified		I don't really think.
		I'm surprised that that would be in a paper of significance.
		It doesn't make sense to me.
		It just doesn't make sense.
		Colin?
		I can send to you the call number of the book that was published sometime in the future.
		I'm writing papers right now.
		I can have it to you by Friday if you want.
		That would be great.
		I'm always interested in seeing what kind of information is out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think one of the big problems that happens in any field, but as energy becomes more and more of a critical topic and such, you get all this, just like this is happening kind of with the global warming thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have all these competing and contrasting media that I think they really tend to confuse the picture and they kind of make the regular person feel like, well, what can I do?
unidentified		Or is this guy true?
		Or is this guy real?
		Is that right or not?
		But I can't go with the eight years.
		But what was the second part of the question?
		I'm forgetting that now.
		The second part of the question, I was just asking, what do you see as the most viable part of fuel for the future?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The most viable type of fuel, you mean?
		Yes.
		Okay.
		All right.
		Mark?
		Well, if we're going to limit ourselves to a fuel, I think we're going to be stuck with the fossil fuels for a while now.
unidentified		And I mean, there are a variety of things.
		You've got zero point energy.
		As we talked about before, hydrogen's a carrier.
		Electricity's a carrier.
		It's not energy.
		It's not a producer of energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I personally, through the research that I have done, see nothing that's going to be commercially applicable within a decade or two.
unidentified		I mean, these things take a long time to ramp them up and get them going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You just mentioned zero point energy.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you know about that?
unidentified		Well, you know, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		very interesting thing and it actually does exist it's just the state of low energy that's in the vacuum and they believe it's just produced by the you know the fluctuations of the you know electromagnetic and gravitational force fields that's throughout the universe that energy does exist it's a true thing now how do you tap it and there are people working on different things of that I know a guy I know in Bodega Bay is Ken Shoulders he's he has the first patent actually that the U.S. Patent
		trade office gave him that apparently does get energy out of the ZPE, out of the zero-point energy.
		He has this thing called high-density charge clusters.
unidentified		He uses a very low power source.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He gets these electrons to cluster even against the repelling force.
unidentified		Then he uses them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He blasts them into these various materials.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the very interesting thing about it is he uses very little input power.
unidentified		He uses a cathode.
unidentified		He blows these things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He shoots them at these aluminum foils and different kinds of metallic foils.
		And he uses these very amazing photographs that he uses with these very close-up photographs.
		And you can see the melting of the material, the sloshing, the propelling of this liquid material.
		And it would look like it would need thousands and thousands of degrees centigrade to make this happen.
unidentified		Yet, there is no sense of any conventional heat.
unidentified		He uses wax and stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		such and it doesn't even melt so and and he actually got a patent for that from the and but see and I know Ken I've met him many times he's been to my He was at my house just about three months ago.
unidentified		And he doesn't know what he's got.
		He's been working on this thing for 18 years.
		Very straight shooter, smart guy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		His problem is using these electron clusters like this tends to it.
		And he had an idea of trying to use it to evaporate water to make a steam generator and a variety of ideas.
		But the delicate nature of the apparatus is constantly eroded and destroyed by the violence of the actual result.
unidentified		And that's been very frustrating to him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the machine essentially destroys itself.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		Okay.
		All right.
		Let me stop you there.
		If it does that, then we're not yet going anywhere.
unidentified		No, but it doesn't mean you just walk away from it all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, perhaps not.
		I forgot to follow up.
		You said there was this guy from Russia.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		The man from Russia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I may not be saying his name correctly, Eugene Potkludnov, but really what he did, he was working in Norway, and he took these special kinds of ceramic discs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He chilled them to near absolute zero, stacked them, rotated them.
unidentified		I mean, how are they going to figure all this out?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And apparently measured reduced gravity, force of gravity, above this rotating discs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
unidentified		Mass is already on top of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, not that they put out a $750,000 job for a commercial company in the United States.
unidentified		They're making them now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're looking at this and trying to figure out what's really going on.
		You know, something that's really very exciting is that there's a small group in the DOE, the Department of Energy, and they are trying to put forward this new program where they are going to make a national database and go out and get all of these disparate results of phenomena,
		look at what's most close, look at what looks like makes sense, and start looking at it instead of just always crossing your fingers and walking away like it's some kind of pariah.
unidentified		And that's kind of interesting thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They haven't been funded, of course, but we'll see what happens in that direction.
		All right.
		Wild Carline, you're on the air with Mark McLaughlin.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm calling from New York.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you ever hear something called the Peterson Power Cell?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A couple of years ago, it's something that's supposed to put electricity in and more of it comes out the other end.
unidentified		Yeah, he uses these certain kinds of beads.
		I mean, it was on Good Morning America and such.
		They're apparently, I don't know what's going on with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They kind of come up and disappear and come up and disappear.
unidentified		So I have that.
		That's still on the back shelf.
		There's something going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I wonder why.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I saw that Good Morning America.
unidentified		Did you like the actual show?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, not only did it generate power, but it did it for nuclear waste.
		It converted nuclear waste into reusable power.
		It was amazing, amazing, amazing.
		And, you know, they had this big demonstration.
		Everybody went, oh, my God.
		And I haven't seen a word about it since.
unidentified		No, he's still around.
unidentified		I think they have a website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think I have covered them in our book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it's like there's got to be a hole in that or somebody will be all over it.
unidentified		That's right.
unidentified		I agree with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I tend to say alleged or appears to be or something.
		And once again, we might get back to those bad measurements or things like that.
		I mean, he doesn't seem like a scam artist to me, and there's a lot of them out there.
		But I don't know why it hasn't gone further than you might have thought.
		But now you can see why so many conspiracy theories develop.
		How could they not?
		Look at the atmosphere.
		I mean, stories like this, they just go away.
		Yeah, but he's not locked up or corraled somewhere.
unidentified		He's still around.
unidentified		Maybe there's a technical problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but for all we know, his frontal lobe is missing now or something.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
		Yeah, you're you right.
		I wasn't going that far, but you knew right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, East of the Rockies.
		You're on there with Mark McLaughlin.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
		I was wondering why we stay Neanderthal when it comes to energy.
		I mean, yeah, we need to produce and get the better technologies.
		But I mean, like, I live here in Florida.
		Why don't we try out wind power with the large windmills like they have over in Norway?
		Yeah, over in Germany for heat at night where it's cold.
		They have those, I'm sure you've heard of them, Mark, where it's like bricks and they've got them in a metal heating container.
		Well, through the night, when the factories are shut down, the frog heats up and then through the day there's no electric at all except for the factories.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't tell you, he's been telling me all night, it's because you can get cheaper power from fossil fuels in Florida than you can from any other source.
		That's exactly what it is.
		And it's also because companies, countries like Germany and other countries in Europe are mainly sort of socialistic and they're willing to take taxpayer money and, gosh, money that comes from incredible tax on gasoline.
		It pushes it to $4 and $5 a gallon.
		Well, I think they can manhandle the private sector much more there.
unidentified		You know what I mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, I do.
		We're not all that manageable here.
		You point it out yourself.
		$4 or $5, riots.
		And you're absolutely right.
		Riots.
		You bet we'd have riots.
unidentified		Yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mark McLaughlin.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, this is John calling from Laguna Beach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, John.
unidentified		I really enjoy the conversation that Mark McLaughlin and you are having on the subject, but I've got a couple of points.
		One is I would hesitate to suggest that you purchase a gasoline hybrid or gasoline electric hybrid since there's probably in the background, I think GM is showing that regarding the hydrogen car.
		You know, there are hydrogen conversion kits that are available commercially.
		As a matter of fact, there is a high school in Arizona that has, as a class project, conversion of a gas car to a hydrogen car.
		I don't know where they get their hydrogen, but that's the problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the economics and we're going, kind of going back to hydrocarbon sources for the hydrogen.
unidentified		But it's, I understand from a prior guest on the Coast to Coast program over the weekend that was with one of the other people that handled the weekend program.
		Roy McAllister, who is the president of the AHA, the American Hydrogen Association, was there and very knowledgeable about the entire process.
		One of the callers called in and says, oh, I want to do this.
		I'm an engineer.
		I've got all kinds of facilities.
		I want to be able to convert my house to generate electricity since he was talking about a device that would be about the size of a refrigerator or smaller.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do a whole house, yes.
unidentified		Yeah, do the whole house from water.
		From water.
		And not only regular water.
		And also, he mentioned that, well, question, you're going to use up all the water?
		Well, it doesn't really take that much water to go through the process.
		Plus, salt water can be used just as easily.
		So you've got a whole ocean of water.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a conversion process that's at question here.
		Right, Mark?
		Well, also the fact is what he's using to create the hydrogen in his house is the natural gas or the electricity coming from the centralized fossil fuel power plant.
		One way or the other.
		It always backs up to the fossil fuels.
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I don't want to be the guy who put the big kibosh in the opinion level on this hydrogen technology.
unidentified		I mean, it works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We know it works and everything, but everybody always seems to fall short.
unidentified		They look at the good news and say, you know what?
		I don't have to worry.
		I'm going to sit back.
		Everything's going to be taken care of.
		You know, it's a technological optimist.
		But, you know, it's like never even be concerned.
		And I'm not saying, oh, wring your hands and lament in the night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I think it's important to understand the whole picture and not just look at the little plugs of good news and such.
		Okay.
		First time call our line.
		You're on the air with Mark McLawson.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, I'm Chris, and I'm in Virginia.
		I would just like to go back to talking about biomass.
		First, I would like to apologize.
		I didn't hear the first half an hour of the show.
		And if you guys have covered this already, I don't want to we didn't talk about biomass.
		Yeah, go ahead.
		Okay, specifically about hemp as fuel, because it's very easy to sow.
		It burns efficiently.
		As a matter of fact, there's a car right now called the Hemp Car that they have actually made a slight modification to a diesel engine where they can burn hemp as biomass.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
unidentified		You know, you can get four times as much fuel from hemp as you can from corn, turning it into biomass.
		you know, without going back to the whole, you know, 1938, you know...
		Reefer Madness?
		Yeah, well, not necessarily Reefer Madness, but, yeah, you know, the whole marijuana tax act and the whole...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it was the Wall Street Journal published an article that said that if we simply legalized hemp and utilized it for clothing and energy sources, this gentleman is talking about, even marijuana for people to smoke tax at all, it would be a half trillion dollars in immediate tax benefit revenue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a very, very serious amount of money.
unidentified		That's right, that is serious money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But we have this big thing about hemp, right?
unidentified		Yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's funny, we're starting to get a lot of questions about hemp and such, and I haven't looked into its specific qualities as far as using it as a biofuel.
		My general feelings about and the way that it's the research and the way it's been presented to me is agricultural crops, whether you're going to get ethanol from corn or whatever, are kind of like an end-loser.
		When you think about you've got to take large amounts of land to grow crops, that's going to take fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides.
unidentified		They're all fossil fuel derived.
unidentified		You need the mechanized equipment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And of course, you can use the product of the field if that's how you're going to do it.
		And I actually know a gentleman in Australia who's working in this too.
		But all the impact on the land, the variety of things, it seems that the way it seems to me is that the end result of using an agricultural product on the scale of replacing conventional oil.
		Very quickly, we're at a break.
unidentified		Yeah, it doesn't seem to work on that level, on that size, that scale.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's interesting.
		All right.
		I've never heard that said before.
		And there are problems.
		It seems like no matter what you use and what you do and what idea you come up with, unless it's absolutely free.
		Ain't it the truth?
unidentified		You don't come easy.
unidentified		You don't come meeting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the truth is, it don't come cheap either.
unidentified		You don't have to shout.
		New South Radio 630 WPRO.
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		Partly to mostly cloudy Tuesday night, low 26 with WPRO's exclusive AccuWeather on Red View Buck.
		You can depend on AccuWeather at News Talk Radio 630 WPRO.
		General Tommy Franks, in charge of the military operation in Afghanistan, says there's no longer any need for carpet bombing, but he says daily flights will continue, and if terrorist holdouts are spotted, they'll be hit.
		The Washington Post, reporting that the Justice Department is looking to arrest some 6,000 Middle Eastern men in this country who have ignored deportation orders.
		The crash of a private plane into a skyscraper in Tampa, Florida is prompting the federal government to rethink air security regulations.
		Details from ABC's Bill Greenwood.
		There are roughly 200,000 general aviation aircraft in the United States, operating from 18,000 airports, and many of them have virtually no security.
		Since September 11th, the Federal Aviation Administration has done nothing to make it more difficult to steal or misuse a private aircraft.
		However, since the Tampa incident, that's about to change, and the FAA has been talking with industry leaders on possible security improvements.
		Bill Greenwood, ADC News, Washington.
		I'm Sherry Press.
		WPRO and Channel 12 News bring you a reality check.
		Weekday afternoons at 5.40, WPRO's Dan York joins Channel 12 anchors Pat Masters and Walt Biuto to talk about the hot issues of the day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of stuff hanging around the house.
		Santa Claus, very good to the kids, right?
		And there's stuff piled upon stuff.
unidentified		Cares, don't say no enough.
		Right.
		We're not that good at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just take a look around the tree and see how much stuff.
unidentified		Reality check afternoons at 540 on Channel 12 and WPRO.
		The only thing better than courtside seats is courtside seats with me, Bolger's Cafe Latte.
		I'm the finger-dunking mug in your face.
		Covet a game, baby.
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		Three, two, one, these two.
		Get out for.
		Bolger's Cafe Latte.
		The big-headed coffee.
		I know it's basketball and all, but you got a little dribble on your lip, cuz new windows?
		You know you need them.
		Your energy bills are high, and your home isn't comfortable when your windows are drafty and noisy.
		So who can you count on for energy-efficient windows at a fair price?
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		Just call 1-800-225-5991 for a free in-home consultation and estimate.
		Sears vinyl-framed windows glide smoothly, tilt in for easy cleaning, and are virtually maintenance-free.
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		Just call 1-800-225-5991 for a free in-home estimate.
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		So replace your old windows.
		Call Sears now at 1-800-225-5991.
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		I'm a Gold Bond guy.
		Ordinary products don't work for me, but Goldbond's medicated to work as hard as I do.
		Drill press operator Michael Harding of Charlotte, North Carolina talks about Gold Bond medicated body powder.
		Goldbond powder keeps me cool, dry, and itch-free.
		I'm a Goldbond's mom.
		For her family, Allison Lee from Atlanta, Georgia uses Gold Bond Medicated Anti-Itch Cream.
		Goldbond anti-itch cream works for fast relief of skin irritations, rashes, and buzz bites.
		Gold Bond, medicated to work as hard as you do.
		Use only as directed.
		This is Coast to Coast with Art Bell, Afternoons at 3.
		It's the Dan York Show on WPRO.
		Give him a week and you'll be hooked.
		On AM 630, WPRO.
		Come.
		We'll be right back.
		Thank you.
		Reachart bell in the Kingdom of Nadi.
		From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure is.
		We're talking with Mark McLaughlin about energy.
		It was a very, very interesting conversation.
		you would like to get in on it.
		Those were the numbers, and the phone is the way you do it.
unidentified		The phone is the way you do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't seem to me that any conversation like this could be complete without some discussion of nuclear energy.
		The Russians, of course, have Chernobyl, which more or less melted down, is now in a big casket thing that they're afraid is going to explode and poison a good portion of the world there again.
		We had Three Mile Island and some other interesting incidents that have occurred with nuclear power.
		It is sort of stalled in this country.
		The Europeans are abandoning nuclear power for wind power and other sources.
		And then, of course, there's the problem of the fuel rods, which they're trying to put in my backyard in Yucca Mountain, where we're only going to have to be custodians of it for a few hundred thousand years.
		So we haven't really touched on nuclear power.
		What's your take, Mark, on nuclear power?
		The big picture is nuclear power is uneconomical, which should make you feel good because we're talking about money.
		If you take into consideration the construction of the plant, the operation of the plant, not That big of a deal.
		But then you get into the decommissioning of the plant and the long-term storage of high radioactive waste.
unidentified		And it's a dead end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fact is, the best part about it is it doesn't emit greenhouse gases.
unidentified		But it can emit a lot of other things, you know.
		There's another little side to that, though.
		First of all, you were talking about the rods.
		They're working on these pebble beads now, which is a little bit better.
		And gas as opposed to water.
		They've got a thing they're building in South Africa.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the main crux of it will come out to if they can do that transmutation of nuclear waste like they think they might be able to, they can stabilize it and possibly generate power again from it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when nuclear plants do emit gases, they're far worse in the immediate than greenhouse bylaws.
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, back to the phones.
		Here we go.
		First time call our line.
		You're on the air with Mark McLaughlin.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		Hello, Ark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		Hi.
		Where are you?
unidentified		This is Ark from down here sitting in Houston waiting to unload.
		I wanted to just make a comment to you and Mark if I could.
		You could.
		I heard about your Geo Metro going out.
		Oh.
		Stopping producing them.
		Yeah.
		I bought a Chibi Sprint Turbo back in 86.
		It made them for two years and stopped producing them.
		Of course, they were made by Suzuki.
		Right.
		I used to get 57 miles per gallon with it.
		I know.
		And I still got it getting 46 now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, listen, the Metro XFI, the first one I had, got about 60 to the gallon.
unidentified		Did it really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, God, it was amazing.
unidentified		You throw that turbo on there, and it runs like a souped up six.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but a lot of people will not ride in them.
		You know, I get it all the time.
		Why do you ride around in that?
		Is it not safe?
		Yes, sir.
		It has been very safe, as a matter of fact.
unidentified		Real safe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, sir, do you have a question for us?
unidentified		Well, I'm just kind of confused on some of the hydrogen.
		It shouldn't be that.
		I don't see where it'd be that hard to produce myself.
		I just don't understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Can you help him understand, Mark, why is hydrogen going to cause fossil fuel to produce?
		Well, back to the two main principles.
		Either you strip the hydrogen from a hydrocarbon, which is a fossil fuel, we know the ramifications there, or you're going to use another power source to create the hydrogen, which is just an energy carrier.
		And until you can replace that power source with something other than fossil fuel, it just doesn't seem to make sense yet.
		It seems cleaner for the end user, but for the environment as a whole.
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'm with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Mark McLaughlin.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, sir.
unidentified		This is Ence Collin from Denver, List Menteen, KHOW.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In Denver, of course.
unidentified		And my question falls under the category of whatever happened to.
		Okay.
		I remember I heard a, I actually saw a TV report in the ABC News where they interviewed a fringe engineer who had perfected a car that ran on compressed air.
		He spoke in this interview.
		They showed him driving around in the park.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
unidentified		I'm not familiar with this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there was this guy, I got a million emails about it, who claimed to have invented a car that ran on compressed air.
unidentified		Well, they showed him driving in it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure he was.
unidentified		He cleaned that on a billet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sir, how did he compress the air?
unidentified		Well, just like you go up to a filling station and like...
		Well, obviously, from whatever power source powered the gas station, I guess.
		In other words, electricity or natural gas or something.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
unidentified		It's funny how all roads lead to Rome, don't they?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All roads lead to...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They lead to Saudi Arabia.
unidentified		Well, yeah, there you go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
		So I'm not, you know, I'm sure that that did run, but it required, you know, a power source to compress the air.
		But again, maybe it's a good idea.
		I haven't heard any more about it.
unidentified		When was that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies.
		I don't know.
		It was fairly recently.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mark McLawson.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Am I on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you are.
unidentified		Okay, I have been appalled at the answers you've been getting.
unidentified		You've been asking all the right questions and getting this information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like what?
unidentified		I'm a bona fide energy expert, and I could answer every one of those questions.
		Now, let's start with a hybrid engine.
		Okay.
		The reason it gets good fuel energy is you've got a 15-horsepower engine.
		It takes 8 horsepower to drive a car at 60 miles an hour on a straight and level road.
		To go uphill, it takes more.
		If you want to accelerate from 0 to 60 in 10 seconds, it might take 100 horsepower.
		So how do you harness this?
		Well, you let this 15 horsepower engine run continuously all the time, putting out 15 horsepower.
		A lot of the time, you're only using half that, so you're charging the batteries.
		If you suddenly need the 100 horsepower, that comes out of the battery.
		Electric motors, you run the battery down a little bit, but you've stored a lot of energy there.
		And then you keep adding to that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you have not really yet told us anything that we...
unidentified		The answer that your reporter gave you was that it has a big engine to get the acceleration and then runs on electricity.
unidentified		Exactly, backwards.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but that is...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does have a gas engine to...
unidentified		and it gets 80 miles per gallon because it's a very small gasoline engine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but again, I don't think you...
		You didn't tell us anything that we didn't discuss.
		Yeah, that's exactly the way it was laid out.
		Now, any engine that's going to take you 0 to 60 in five seconds or something, or six seconds, is going to take a hell of a lot of horsepower.
		And during that time, you're probably going to be utilizing the piston engine, you know, the good old gas engine, to do it right mark that's how i understand it yes sir and so to perform as today's cars advertise everybody loves them to perform 0 to 60 and whatever it is you know that's your trip then it's gonna it's still gonna use gasoline folks um western the rockies or on the air uh i'll try to be quick uh but
unidentified		but I have a question and a comment.
		First of all, do you know in this country we use 5% more power each year?
		So maybe solar power isn't such a bad idea anyways.
		And maybe, have you ever heard of saltwater power?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Saltwater power?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean ocean wave power, right?
unidentified		Well, me and my friends in high school, we tried making saltwater power because saltwater is acidic.
unidentified		So we just got two different metals, and we got actually a little bit of energy from it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You get a little bit, oh, I see, from dissimilar metals.
		Yes, you do get a little bit of energy from it.
		I think that's the operative word.
		Yeah, a little bit.
		I thought the interesting question, though, was about ocean power.
		Ocean thermal or ocean current?
		Ocean current.
unidentified		Well, that's something they're looking at for sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ocean thermal is very isolated areas, certain areas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, a lot of these applications, and the one thing I do want to say, Art, and I think you know this, and I just want everybody to know this, I mean, I support solar power.
unidentified		I support wind power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just don't think any particular thing, and even with these agricultural biofuels, I don't want to push everybody down and squish them and say none of this works, but none of these are the panacea that will replace the vast consumption of fossil fuels that we're talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I think it's going to be a whole variety of energy sources that we're going to be using to help us cut back.
unidentified		It's the very beginning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Efficiency and conservation is really kind of the first steps.
		And I think there are quite a few viable things, and they all should be slowly done and slowly implemented.
		But as you said, money is an issue, and like you said again, the average guy can't really afford to go out and set his whole house up so he can unplug from the grid.
		No.
		No, he can't.
		And if he could, he's still not doing something that's necessarily profitable for him.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly right.
		That's honest.
		God, that's the key.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Mark McLaughlin.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
		Wow.
		I've been dialing for so long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here you are.
unidentified		Well, I have a couple things to say.
		I've just been listening to your dialogue, and I'm feeling kind of some sympathy for this guy, Mark, because he seems to sometimes can't get his rebuttals in order quick enough for you, Art.
		And you were talking about California being paying because they're clean.
		Do you remember that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We were talking, yes.
		I think, I believe I said that California acting in probably what a lot of Californians consider to be an environmentally friendly way have paid for it with what's happened to them now.
		Yes, yes.
		Yes.
		Because they didn't build the plants.
		Yes.
unidentified		Right.
		But it's not actually environmentally sound because like your guest said, they're drawing this from non-environmentally sound sources out of the state, actually.
		So they're just sort of...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, that's true.
unidentified		Yeah.
		What do you call that when you...
		Not in my backyard.
		Well, some people call it...
		Exploit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Some people call it stupid.
unidentified		They do.
		Yeah.
		They're called exploiting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		They call it stupid.
		In other words, California says, oh, we're not going to do that here, not in our backyard.
		Right.
		They buy it from people who are doing it in their backyard.
		So the net effect is the same.
		It's just stupid for California because they have a crisis and end up with 300% more of an electric bill than they had.
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right?
unidentified		I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Mark McLaughlin.
		Hello.
		Hi, Art.
		Yes, sir.
		This is Brian of Prompt.
unidentified		And...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're in Prompt.
		Yeah.
		Very good.
		Listening to what affiliates, sir?
		Listening to Canine.
unidentified		He's speaking of nine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Now, proceed.
		Okay.
		My main gripe is with jet aircraft.
		I work in Las Vegas.
		I drive a taxi.
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we depend on airplanes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I would say that the aircraft landing at McCarran International Airport far outweigh the exhaust produced by vehicles.
unidentified		By particularly cars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, that's a good point.
		Airplanes really do use a lot of that jet fuel.
		Yeah, they do.
		And they're lined up all day and all night long.
		They're landing at...
		And they're full of people, aren't they?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're full of people.
		We depend on that.
		But can we please clean up the aircraft before you pick on the cars?
		My car virtually doesn't...
unidentified		It doesn't burn anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't?
		Well, it blew...
		I want to see your car.
		It blew four parts per million hydrocarbons.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		You know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know?
unidentified		But...
		Well, you have to multiply them by hundreds of thousands.
		You know?
		Hundreds of thousands of vehicles.
		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's other contributing factors other than strictly automobiles.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's making a very good point, Mark.
		He's right.
		I mean, it's not just cars.
unidentified		No, it's not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's other fossil fuel burners.
		Look at jets.
		My God.
		He's right.
		Look at them lined up out there.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
		I wasn't trying just to pick on car owners.
		I mean, it wasn't about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's like any engine or any device or any apparatus that uses a hydrocarbon fuel contributes to the problem.
unidentified		And, once again, a lot is coming back to you.
		So, are we going to go into...
		Well, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It'd be great to have an aircraft that would be extremely or highly fuel efficient.
unidentified		And don't you think the airliner would like to have that, too, if they didn't have to pay the fuel costs?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
unidentified		I don't know if that technology is readily available.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I certainly don't see them flying on a fuel cell that generates electricity.
unidentified		Well, if it were...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		was available you could darn well bet they'd be using it because that's a big part of their operating costs and because i agree with the caller i mean i understand and i'm not trying to pick on any particular sector it's uh it's a very large and it's a very intricate and complex situation all right most of the Rockies, you are on the air now with Mark McLaughlin and Art Bell.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there you are.
unidentified		Yeah.
		I just sent you an email where I outlined what I had intended to say.
		It's basically that the real cause of global warming has nothing to do with carbon dioxide.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That may or may not be.
unidentified		Well, I have...
		It is not a good idea.
		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's not a good idea.
unidentified		But the carbon dioxide from human sources is such a puny part of the total carbon dioxide that's going eventually into the water.
unidentified		The real problem is one of getting the coral reefs back to good health because they are the ones that are tying up the carbon dioxide that winds up in the water, which is nearly all of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I appreciate it.
		And I'm sure you're right about the coral reefs, which are dying, by the way.
unidentified		They're just indicative of the environmental problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The coral reefs are dying at a frightening rate.
		A frightening rate.
		So, you know, that argument, I know, you hear it from the political right all the time.
		What man is doing is nothing.
		They say nothing.
		And in some ways, they're right.
		But it doesn't matter.
		Is putting all this stuff into the atmosphere of that idea?
		Anybody in their gut knows damn well it isn't.
		Be damn the argument about how much effect we're having on the planet by doing this.
		Is it a good idea?
		No.
		Are we going to run out of it?
		Yes.
		Basics.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Mark McLaughlin.
		Hello?
		Yes.
unidentified		Good show.
		Say, hydrogen is viable.
		Be honest about it.
		First of all, you treated that engineer who called in rather crudely.
		He was a scientist.
		You should have heard him out.
		He had more to say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure he did, and I'm sure you do too, but you're going to have to try to be quick about it.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		If you use wind power and solar power to generate, split the water molecules into the hydrogen, then you can have a hydrogen-powered economy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then you weren't listening because that's exactly what Mark Michael Aughlin said about what, Mark, an hour and a half ago?
unidentified		Yeah, we did talk about that, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, yes.
unidentified		I agree with him then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Understand, but it's still going to take, and this is what we're recovering, that he apparently didn't listen to very carefully, a long period of time for it to become financially viable to do and to transfer our society, which is now absolutely dependent on fossil fuels and will be for our lifetimes.
		Yes, I agree with you.
		I mean, this is something people have to understand.
		East of the Rockies are on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		You were talking about numbers a little bit ago, and the one time that you mentioned numbers, it sounded like that it might be less time than you talk about the rest of the program.
unidentified		I mean, you said $10,000 would be about what the solar energy would cost, but that ought to be payable within eight years, I would say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, who said that?
unidentified		Well, I did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a subsidized program in the Sacramento Municipal Utility District.
unidentified		And that's what I said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The key words here is subsidized.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, they give you half of what you owe.
unidentified		Half of $5,000.
unidentified		$5,000 was half.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And the $10,000, if you pay the whole thing yourself without the subsidy, $10,000, you could pay that off in eight years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		You could pay it off at any level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't make you, you're not self-sufficient at that level either.
unidentified		It's going to be helpful.
		How close to self-sufficient?
		Well, let me just give you one good thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, everybody always says, oh, geez, when the sun goes down, the solar power is over.
		You think about it in the West specifically, but also in the East, too.
		The greatest electricity use, it's peak power usage, summertime afternoons when the air conditioners are just blowing their doors off.
		And that's when the solar panels are working the best.
		People, though, don't understand or even begin to understand how much power it actually takes to run home with air conditioning, for example, and all the appliances.
		Yeah.
		They just don't have a clue until you start trying to actually do it.
		You don't know.
		You've learned.
		Oh, I've learned, all right.
unidentified		You've learned firsthand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, thanks.
		It's been an absolutely totally stimulating program.
		Oh, thanks, all right.
		Mark, and I really appreciate your being here.
		We'll have you back again, all right?
unidentified		I'm going to send you a complimentary copy of our new book because.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the name of your book?
		The book is called Turning the Corner, Energy Solutions for the 21st Century.
		And I bet you can get it on Amazon.com.
unidentified		Yes, you can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bless your heart for being here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we cover all that stuff, cold fusion, zero-point energy, gravity modification, all of it.
unidentified		But thanks again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you and your listeners.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have a good night, Mark.
unidentified		You too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert, I'm Mark Bell.

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