Art Bell

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Oct. 17, 2001 - Art Bell

02:39:00

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - J. Richard Gott - Time Travel

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57:11

j richard gott

01:13:55

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you good evening, good afternoon, and or good morning wherever you may be across the globe.
unidentified		We cover all the 24 time zones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Coast Coast AM and I'm Art Bell.
		The Aaron Art Bell back again.
		Situation with my back is better, and I feel pretty doggone good, everybody.
		I'm on a new medicine.
		A new kind of medicine that seems to be doing a very good job, hence.
		Here I am.
		And I hope that's exactly where I stay.
		I've got a lot of announcements to get out of the way and a few things to talk to you about, so let me begin.
		First of all, welcome.
		A new affiliate, WVA, in Emporia, Virginia, 860.
		Good dial position.
		860 on the dial in Emporia, Virginia.
		That's WEVA.
		Welcome to the network.
		As we continue to soar well above 500 affiliates now, I'll get you a number.
		Let's see.
		I don't even know where to begin.
		Oh, by the way, survey results beginning to come in.
		Number one in Los Angeles.
		Number one!
		From number six in Los Angeles to number one, and I'll keep feeding you those.
		I know also 2554 big increase in Chicago as well.
		So I will keep you informed as I always try to do with respect to ratings.
unidentified		Now, streaming audio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh my God.
		We have the company has instituted.
		Well, let me read you what I read, actually what I wrote in order to go on the website about streaming audio and paying for streaming audio.
		The company has indeed, company-wide, not just my program, but all programs across the board at Premier are now, you have to pay for streaming.
		That's the news.
		And here's what I said about it on the website.
		I'll just read it to you.
		I would like to tell my listeners a couple of things for the record about pay for listening.
		It was not my decision to change the free Internet access.
		It is a company-wide change.
		All the programs produced by Premier are not just mine.
		The reason, as I understand it, is simple and it is cost.
		As many of you may know and many probably don't know, there are now millions of people on the Internet.
		The growth on the Internet is exponential, of course.
		And every time you send a stream to a listener, it costs money.
		A lot of people don't know that.
		It costs money.
		Bandwidth costs a lot of money, as a matter of fact.
		In fact, about $1.5 million a year for all the premiere shows to be streamed.
		$1.5 million.
		Now, in the old days, that wasn't such a big deal because there weren't so many people listening to audio streams.
		The Internet has now become a megalith monster everywhere.
		And obviously, with that many, with zillions of people trying to tune into the streams, it begins to cost the company a very great deal of money, which they have been absorbing until now.
		The company hopes to at least break even with this.
		I certainly am not going to make any money from this.
		I am sad about the change personally, because it will be very difficult, obviously, for me to get calls on the international line.
		I have had emails, oh my God, they call me the bin Laden of talk radio and everything you can imagine under the book, in the book.
		I understand the anger at having to pay for what was once free, but I also understand that my company cannot continue to cover the ever-growing cost.
		The bright spot, it's still free on the radio, folks.
		They tried advertising to support the streaming cost, but that did not work out.
		And so they are charging a fee.
		Now, let me tell you what I'm doing.
		So you might know what I'm trying to personally do.
		I'm trying to get the price reduced.
		And I may have information for you on that tomorrow night.
		I'm doing behind the scenes all I can do, as you might well imagine.
		You know, I'm not pleased with this either.
		It's just an economic fact.
		As you know, the economy stinks right now, to put it mildly, and that compounds the whole situation.
		And they are getting exponentially more people using streaming every day, and that does cost money.
		Pure and simple, cost money.
		Radio is a business, it costs money.
		I understand it, but I'm not happy about it, which puts me in the same category with most of you.
		Because, as you know, I've been extremely interactive, as you know, with the Internet.
		We've had a lot of firsts on this program in our combination with what we do on the Internet, and I'm very proud of that.
		And I'm not happy about the fact that we have to begin charging.
		It's just a fact of business life.
		That's all there is to it.
		However, before raising your voice one way or the other, hold tight.
		I'm doing what I can behind the scenes, and I think I've got some movement, so just hang in.
		I'll probably have an announcement tomorrow, the next day, soon anyway.
		So that's the deal on streaming audio.
		Let's see, what else do I need to tell you about?
		Well, not in the written news this morning, but certainly all over CNN, is the fact that India and Pakistan are beginning to have a problem.
		Again, as usual, over Kashmir, they are both nuclear powers, as I'm sure you're aware.
		Indian troops are said to be on the move.
		India, of course, is saying it's part of a regular exercise, and that's what every country before they do something always says.
		I'm not saying they're going to, but that's what they always say, regular exercise, scheduled exercise, you know, that's standard BS fare, right?
		Pakistan has responded by putting their military on high alert.
		This is something we all have to watch Very carefully.
		Could there be a use of a nuclear weapon?
		Yes.
		In fact, Pakistan said it would use any and all methods if it comes to that.
		And that translates to, hey, stupid, we got the bomb, and if you come at us, we're going to use it.
	Well, India has one too.
	So we're just going to have to watch that very carefully, not what we need in the middle of everything that's going on right now as we continue to bomb the hell out of Afghanistan.
	The big news, of course, everywhere, unrelenting news, is anthrax, and we're going to talk about that in a moment.
	But I want to tell you that next hour we have a Princeton professor, J. Richard Gott, Princeton professor, who's going to be here talking about time travel.
	Real time travel.
	It is one of the favorite subjects that I cover on this program and cover and cover as much as I can.
	Every time I can get somebody of his caliber to talk about something like this, I jump at it.
	So that'll be next hour.
	And we're going to kind of play this on a daily basis.
	It's the way I'm doing it.
	If there are developments, if we suddenly put troops on the ground or something happens with regard to the war we're in, you know, we'll cover that right away.
	Otherwise, we'll cover topics more associated with this program generally.
	I'll kind of slip them in and do what is right for any given night.
	Tonight, I think, after this hour, we'll have open lines this hour.
	You know, I think after this, we'll do open lines here in this hour, and then we'll do the professor in the next hour, and then every night I'll make a decision about what we're going to be doing.
	I'll tell you about tomorrow in a minute.
	31 Senate employees tested positive for anthrax exposure, prompting the shutdown of a House and three Senate office buildings.
unidentified		That's pretty serious stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The anthrax seems, if you watch the news, like it's showing up everywhere.
		And of course, the anthrax and the NBC in New York and a tabloid newspaper company in Florida were the same strain we now find out.
		Now that's really, really interesting.
		The Florida case and the New York case, the same strain.
		Isn't that interesting?
		Anthrax found in Governor George Pataki's Midtown Manhattan office brought to three the number of times the bacterium's turned up in the city now in less than a week.
		And, you know, you've got to wonder how many of these, kind of a chilling thought, have they not found?
		You can bet if we know about this many, then, God, how many people out there opened an envelope and didn't even know they were exposed?
		Only time will tell, unfortunately.
		And toward this end, I think I'd like to ask all of you, who do you think is doing this?
		The fact that the strains are the same in New York and Florida, the fact that it is a very pure strain, I am told, makes me think or lean toward the terrorists' cells remaining in the country doing this.
		I'm kind of personally leaning that way, but others are imagining it could be some domestic militia-type groups, whatever.
		I don't want to believe that.
		I know the commentary on CNN from many has been that many militia groups consider this horrible tragedy in New York to be some kind of call to arms.
		I don't want to believe that either.
		So I'm leaning toward, God don't let it be true that it's one of our own.
		I'm leaning toward thinking it's the same damn terrorists that have done the rest of this.
		But, you know, I'd like your thinking on that, whatever it is you think.
		Well, well, well, Daniel Golden, head of NASA, who espoused a leaner, meaner space agency, has resigned.
		He announced his resignation from NASA today in the news coming after about 10 years in that job.
		Dan Golden is resigning.
		Here with his take on that, but even more importantly, something going on at Princeton tomorrow night will be Richard C. Hoagland.
		Now we will tap his psyche on what he thinks about Dan Golden resigning.
		And we will also, tomorrow night, in the first hour, pass the word.
		I'm good to my word.
		It's a little late, but better late than never.
		As you know, Rush Limbaugh is going deaf.
		And we are going to do what we have not done now in some years.
		We are going to do a great experiment.
		And what do I mean by that?
		I mean tomorrow night, in the first hour, during breaks, we are going to try a mass concentration effort.
		This seems to work best in exactly this kind of case where somebody has an illness that looks like it's going to consume their hearing or in the case of Richard C. Hoagland, his heart attack, and Daniel Brinkley and the brain problem.
		All I know is this mass concentration, call it prayer if you want, and some will pray, some will just concentrate, sending white light.
unidentified		It works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It works.
		I've seen it work time after time after time after time.
		I know it works.
		And so we're going to see what we can do.
		And that'll be tomorrow night.
		And that'll be followed by Richard C. Hogland, who's going to be commenting on the experiments ongoing at Princeton.
		The incredible experiments ongoing at Princeton.
		Now, as you know, they've got these big computers generating random numbers.
		And for some time, without the public's knowledge, they have been watching these random-numbered generators, kind of like watching a Richter scale for an earthquake.
		Except they've been watching these random-numbered generators as big events like 9-11 occur and other big events that affect people nationwide, if not worldwide, and kind of like a Richter scale movement at earthquake.
		They have noticed that when big events happen, the chart goes nuts and things become not so random.
		And I have this feeling that what we're going to do tomorrow night in the first hour, and then what we're going to talk about with Richard in hours following, I have this feeling they're profoundly connected.
		So anyway, that's coming up tomorrow night.
		In a moment, we'll move toward Open Lines.
unidentified		Stay right where you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, as promised, let's go to Open Lines.
		Anything you want to talk about is absolutely fair game.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Art, it is so good to hear you tonight.
unidentified		I'm glad you're on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Glad to be here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Believe me, I'm glad to be here.
unidentified		Hey, this is Joe.
unidentified		I'm listening out of KSTE in Sacramento, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Hey, I've noticed since the crisis, this huge power crisis that we have here in California seems non-existent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mary, a word about it.
		Isn't that something?
		Now, have you had any blackouts I didn't know about?
unidentified		I haven't been hearing a thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, huh?
unidentified		What kind of crisis was it that all of a sudden they can just turn the crisis off because we have a bigger crisis?
unidentified		If it was a power crisis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's an awfully good point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, actually, and Conduit, how often do you hear the name Conduit now?
unidentified		How involved was he in that Chandra Levy's disappearance?
unidentified		Well, yeah, who knows?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it was big news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was every news.
unidentified		It looked like he had his hands in it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But then 9-1-1 came along, and all kinds of things just fell right through the cracks.
		How about the black boxes?
		Some of them, thankfully.
unidentified		How about the black boxes?
		What was on those?
		Did we hear anything?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, you didn't miss it?
		No.
		They released sort of a partial transcript, and I don't even, it was so partial it didn't even register with me.
		I remember a report that Flight 93, they said, well, there was some kind of struggle, but actually releasing it?
		No, I haven't seen it.
unidentified		You're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's gone, too.
unidentified		These are the things I miss when you're not on the air, you know?
unidentified		The subterranean city off of Cuba.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I talked to Linda Moulton Howe last time I was on the air, and she said, I said, Linda, does it still have legs?
		Is it still a big story?
		She said, absolutely yes.
		And people have clamped their mouths shut.
		National Geographic is involved, as you know, and they won't talk.
		But be assured, sir, it's the big story it always was, and we won't let go.
		We'll keep you informed.
unidentified		Right on.
		All right?
		Hey, Art.
		Thanks a lot, and welcome back tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much, and take care.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Art, it does my heart good to hear your voice.
unidentified		This is Steve from Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Steve.
unidentified		You used to be frightened of earthquakes guy?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean you've grown to love them now?
unidentified		Oh, yeah, sure.
		I've grown to love them now that I'm in Phoenix.
		Listen, Art.
		Yes.
		Can you give me some...
		They were talking to Barbara last night, a couple of people, and I know your audience is...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the last fellow just asked about that.
		Yes, I'm in close contact with Linda Moulton Howe, and she is the lead person on that story right now.
		If there's any news at all, she'll have it, and I'll have it.
unidentified		One more thing, Mark, before you go?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		They shot the Israeli tourism guy, and they had a headline early in the evening, about 12 o'clock on CNN.
		Then all day, my friends that were listening to the news, I couldn't do it.
		They haven't heard a thing.
		It was kind of hush, hush.
		I know it's, you know, tit-for-tat over there, but I'm kind of worried.
		A lot of people are starting to get on Israel's case because we're sending them money, and they fail to realize that we send Palestine money, too.
		And I was wondering what your audience thought about how that's going to affect what's going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Good question.
		Thank you very much.
		One or more gunmen shot and killed an Israeli cabinet minister Wednesday.
		And how Israel is going to react to this?
		We're going to have to wait and see.
		I think Israel is being requested at the moment to do what we've requested them to do every time we've had a problem lately, and that is cool it.
		But they're not that cool.
		And I don't know how far Israel can be pushed before they will say, I would like to help you out with cooling it, but sorry.
		And they will act.
		At some point, there's going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
		And right now, we've got a lot of areas to worry about.
		We've got that area, of course, as always.
		And then we've got this Pakistan-India thing.
		I'm telling you, the dice are really out there rolling on the table right now.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, how are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing okay, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not a lot of time before the bottom of the hour.
unidentified		What's up?
		Yeah, I was just wondering that something that your caller just said that wanted me to bring this up.
		There is a phone in front of every passenger on all those planes that flew in the World Trade Center.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's correct, yes.
unidentified		There was a number of calls, let's say 30, 40, or 50 calls that were made from those phones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I heard, yes.
unidentified		And I want to know why the government is holding the 911 recordings back because the 911 operator would ask, what's your emergency?
		I'm in an airplane, too.
		It's being hijacked.
		And the operator, 911 operator, would say, describe the subject.
		I want to know what they were.
		I want to know if they were Africans or whites or whatever.
		They won't release it because they're not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I suppose it's all, quote, part of the investigation right now, the criminal investigation, end quote.
		But, You know, who knows?
		I agree with you.
		I don't see why we can't get to hear these things.
		It doesn't seem like it would compromise an investigation.
		Listen, I gotta run.
		Thank you.
		Take care.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Drifting of a Sea of Hovering.
		Tryna get myself assured for so long You see, the wise man has the power Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To reach out on the Toll-Free International line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Arthell from the Kingdom of Nile.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed.
		God, it's good to be here.
		You may have noticed that I make music more a part of what I do than a lot of other talk show hosts do, and that's because I love music.
		It's really the only reason I absolutely love it.
		Anyway, good morning.
		Open lines.
		Continue in a moment.
		Stay right where you are.
unidentified		Stay right where you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		One quick announcement.
		I should have said this earlier.
		Regarding snail mail.
		No more snail mail.
		That's one effect all of this is having on me.
		Now, for obvious reasons, my wife opens my mail.
		And then she constructs a pile of mail for me to consider.
		But because of the mass amount of mail that we get, we get mail many bins at a time.
		You know what a bin is like?
		A bin of mail?
		Thousands of letters and packages.
		Now, obviously, because I'm national media, there's some risk involved.
		Fortunately, we were so backed up with our mail that since September 11th, we haven't opened anything.
		Thank God.
		We've got it all, and first of all, we're going to refuse any future mail, TFN, till further notice.
		Secondly, regarding the mail we have, I don't know how we're going to dispose of it.
		Now, maybe the authorities would like to come take a look because there could well be something in our mail.
		But if there is, I'm not going to allow my wife to find it, nor am I going to go searching for it myself.
		But we have just kept the mail.
		We have it all since 9-11.
		It wouldn't surprise me.
		As a matter of fact, as I said earlier, it would not surprise me but that the attack is much wider than we know right now with regard to the cases we know about, the high-profile cases of anthrax.
		I think it's been a larger attack, and it wouldn't surprise me but that my mail contains some, and I'm not going to go find it, nor am I sure as hell not to let my wife go find it.
		So we have the mail.
		Some authority wants to come and go through it, they're welcome to it.
		Otherwise, we're going to have to decide what to do with it.
		With regard to future mail, we're not going to accept it for obvious reasons.
		Mail is nice.
		It's not worth dying for.
		So that's that.
		And if you want to reach me, best ways, email artbell at mindspring.com.
		That's artbell, A-R-T-B-E-L-L, at mindspring.com.
		First time caller line, you are on the air.
unidentified		Hello?
		Hello.
		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, hello.
unidentified		Man, how's it going?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on a cell phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where?
unidentified		I'm in New York City.
unidentified		Listen to your WABC.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, right.
		WABC.
		My.
unidentified		Yeah, you're in second home.
		Actually, the greatest city is second to Perrump.
		And usually I try to remember how to spell Perrump, but I forgot.
		Right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's all right.
unidentified		Listen, when you say postal bins, you mean like one of those canvas big postal bins with like the four wheels on them?
unidentified		Those things you get?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, this is a...
		It's about, I don't know, probably about three feet by two feet, you know, and you have to heft it on each side.
		It's got a holder on each side.
		That's a bin.
		And you can fit thousands of letters in a bin.
		And we get mail typically three or four bins at a time.
		Give you an idea.
unidentified		You know, no snail mail.
unidentified		That means the emails are going to jump by about 50,000 at least.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
		I know.
		But I mean, under the circumstances, if you were national media knowing what's going on, what would you do?
unidentified		Oh, no.
		Believe me, I think you're doing exactly the right thing for your sake and Ramona's.
		I mean, I wouldn't, I don't hold that against you at all.
		I mean, God only knows, before any of this happened, you must have gotten some freaky stuff to begin with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Always.
unidentified		I mean, we got things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, people know I love cats.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've been set cat ears.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that disgusting?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, yeah, we've always had strange male along with a good cat.
unidentified		I'm sure there's things that you can't say on the radio either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You got it.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Listen, I'm trying to cram in about four years' worth of stuff into about 30 seconds, so excuse me if I go a little faster because I never thought, I heard the phone ring, I never thought in my life that he would answer, and there you were.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And you sound exactly like you sound on the radio.
		I don't know what people are talking about.
		Glad to hear about the thing about Rush, you know, the experiment that you're going to be doing tomorrow, Rush.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had scheduled to do that, but the next day my back went belly up.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, and I'm glad to hear you're feeling better, you know, being a fellow back sufferer.
unidentified		I could kind of sympathize with what you don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, only back people will really understand.
unidentified		Everybody else is, oh, what a wussy, you know, after a little backache.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It wasn't a little backache, folks.
		I'm on the floor and not even comfortable there.
		Anyway, go ahead, sir.
unidentified		And about maybe about three hours ago, your ears must have been ringing because me and my friend Tony were talking about you, about the archive.
		Glad to hear you doing something about that also.
		Two things.
		A comment on what Louis Faraton said today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And if you have a comment, did you see the front page of the post the other day about the guy in Portland, Maine, who was ready to join the jihad to fight against the Americans?
		The American citizen.
		He's a fifth-generation American.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Look, I'm getting a lot of email like that.
		Yeah, I appreciate the call, sir.
		I've got a lot of anti-war mail, and it's strident, and it's ugly.
		And you know what I don't understand?
		I really honestly, honest to God, I don't understand, folks.
		This supposed anti-war peace nickmail is some of the most violent, threatening, nasty, I could go on and on, and language, oh my, from these supposedly peaceful people, I think it's centered a lot more around fear than I do any intellectualizing of the actual situation, if you follow me.
		Usually fear generates that kind of vitriol.
		And I think that's what I'm sampling.
		But I'm telling you, it's bad.
		It's really bad.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Rich listening on KOGO in San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Rich.
unidentified		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I'd like to address the anthrax thing about it being domestic or international terrorism, but didn't Microsoft receive the anthrax from Malaysia?
		It did, yes.
		And didn't Ata have a subscription to the tablet?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's got a compatriot down there, you know, in that area of the world, down actually in the Philippines.
		So, you know, I lean toward this whole thing being connected to the terrorist attack, the 911 thing, but I'm not sure.
		How about you?
unidentified		I'm leaning towards terrorism.
unidentified		I just don't think that the local nuts would have access to anthrax that easily.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not just that.
		I think they probably have access to anthrax, but if I'm hearing the experts, if I quote correctly, it's too finely ground.
		It's too pure for a domestic group to have concocted.
		They generally seem to agree on that.
		Plus, the fact that there's a connection between Florida and New York, same strain, that kind of thing.
		It's beginning to shape up more like a bigger thing than a smaller thing.
unidentified		Exactly.
		I totally agree.
		And one more thing is I have an idea.
		I'm a private pilot, and I'd love to see the federal government mobilize us through the Civil Air Patrol to guard our borders and water reservoirs.
		Because I live on the West Coast.
		We have a lot of unfenced water reservoirs.
		And what more, I think a lot of the panic is happening is because they're not giving the citizens anything to do to help.
		And a lot of people want to do things, and if they can start doing things like that, they really keep their minds off the farm effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I think we do have to keep it in perspective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think last year, 20,000 people died of the flu, right?
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		20,000 people.
		Now, I'm not in any way lessening the horrible nature of the anthrax attacks and the one death we've had so far and the illness so far.
		But it should be put in perspective in terms of risk versus how much we go, oh my God, the panic, panic, you know.
unidentified		Yeah, exactly.
		I'm not afraid of the anthrax.
		I'm more afraid of explosions and explosives and dirty nukes myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm more afraid, and you should be too, of biological agents.
unidentified		Oh, the smallpox does scare me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that'd be a good one.
		Or others.
		There are others.
		Any sort of thing that would be transmissible and deadly, that's something to be afraid of.
		You know, one of those little bugs gets away, and that could be all she wrote.
unidentified		Hopefully that doesn't happen anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hopefully.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
unidentified		You're welcome.
unidentified		I hope your back gets better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Well, it is.
		I've got new medicine.
		And like all newly better-feeling people, I have high hopes that it will continue.
		I'm just about back to normal right now.
		Back to normal.
		Actually, this medicine has been wonderful for I don't think I really ought to name it.
		I'm not going to.
		Because, you know, it's like everybody's situation is different, and what works for me might not work for you.
		So I don't want to ballyhoo this as a cure-all.
		It simply got me right now feeling really great.
		So cross fingers, knock on compressed wood.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I think the Rush Lumball experiment is a great idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Because I started noticing you two have a lot in common.
		You both had this intense love of radio and the radio business.
		That comes through.
		Both of you talk about, you know, hang out radio stations are equivalent when you're in teen years.
		You both have a great sense of humor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hope so.
unidentified		I'm glad it's my work day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, we are not exactly ideological twins, mind you.
		Not even close.
		Not even close.
		But background in radio, very, very similar.
		And, you know, for this to happen to that poor man at the zenith of his career, can you imagine to lose it being a radio personality and losing your hearing?
unidentified		Being on top of his game the past six months to a year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		And your thing, okay, this is not, you rush, but that's why I'm glad I didn't miss out on the VID experiment.
		I wound up having an odd situation a week or two ago, and I missed the fact Barbara took over that night.
		That's right.
		But I'm glad I got a chance to participate tomorrow night.
		But another topic, whatever happened with all the weird stuff in Antarctica that was going on at the beginning of the year?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, like every other story that we have not had time to pay attention to, it's dropped off the edge of the earth, sir.
		I'll tell you the best reading I had on what went on in Antarctica, and they're not admitting it, but what I believe went on was a good old-fashioned fight.
		I mean, they had a real roundhouse down there.
		People came out injured, and that's my take on what happened.
		You're not going to hear it from them, I'm sure, but that's exactly what I believe happened.
unidentified		An embarrassing brawl.
unidentified		They didn't know how to cover up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if anybody in the Antarctic would wish to send me an email, they listen to the program down there and correct me, why go right ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Until then, that's what I'm going to believe with the evidence I've seen has occurred.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		That's all plausible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate the call.
		I lived in Alaska, and I can tell you the people get cabin fever.
		And in the Antarctic, it's even amplified from that.
		You know, the winters are long and dark in Alaska.
		Very long and very dark.
		And most people Party most of the winter.
		I'm telling you, Anchorage is one big party town during the winter.
		When everything closes down and freezes down, there's ice, fog circulating outside, and nobody wants to go anywhere.
		You party.
		Sort of try to stay sane, but some people don't totally make it, and it may be that they have a situation in the Antarctic.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, I'm calling with something a little bit different from what's been going on here lately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's all right.
unidentified		The reason I'm calling is about a book called The Arantia Book.
unidentified		Oh, Arantia, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, of course.
unidentified		I thought it might be of some interest to your listeners.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, we had the Rancha book people advertising on the program for a while.
unidentified		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you must have missed it.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm a new listener, actually.
unidentified		I heard of you a long time ago, but I just got your station here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in San Point, Idaho.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Point, Idaho.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		But yeah, we just started listening the last couple of months, and I was fascinated with this book, and the fact that I have only met a couple of people that have read the book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, believe me, among my listeners, it would be widely well known.
unidentified		Really?
		Sure.
		And the history as well?
		Yes.
		It's got a fascinating history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and it would be fascinating to have a guest on the subject, too.
unidentified		Yeah, and I visited the website also, and it's kind of controversial.
unidentified		I guess they're having some kind of argument over the rights.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, good.
unidentified		That'll make it even more interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Well, I'll see if I can get somebody wind up on the subject.
		How's that?
unidentified		Yeah, that'd be great.
		Ookie.
		Okay, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good deal.
		Thank you.
		First time caller line.
		You're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Hello.
		Hi.
		This is Jesse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Jesse.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Did you ever get a CD I sent of our group called The Haunting?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I believe it resides in the other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When did you send it?
unidentified		Guy, quite some time ago now, I guess, at the beginning of the year.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I think I've seen it in the other room, so I think we have it, yes.
unidentified		Oh, okay, great.
		Yeah, I was just wondering, do you ever listen to music like that?
		I mean, I know it's hard rock and stuff, but.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I always listen to what I got.
unidentified		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Musically, yes.
unidentified		Because, I mean, I wasn't sure if you'd listen to it because it is hard rock, but the lyrics are great.
unidentified		The lyrics are...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I tend, you know, if you listen to my bumper music, I'm sure you know I tend toward playing music, no offense, sir, with a tune.
		Right.
		But I will go back and take a re-listen.
		Music is very, very important to me, but showing my age, I still enjoy music that, I don't know, I guess I don't want to anger anybody out there, but you know it's music.
		When you hear it, you can hum along, you can tap your foot, you can even sing along if you want to.
		And some of which issues today and passes mustard among some demographics is music I reject as the next thing to white noise.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Extinguish your radio force, please.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn it off.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, on the air, you are.
unidentified		Cool.
unidentified		Is this art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		This isn't art.
		Okay.
		Well, I have a question, but I was just listening to the radio, and I didn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, see, that's why you're confused.
unidentified		Yes, I know, with somebody else.
		Okay.
		I have a question about the anthrax.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And what seems curious to me is that whoever is sending it has to know, they have to, I think they would have had to have one of those biological suits on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean to make it?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're absolutely correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's so sophisticated, from what I understand, that it lends itself to the probability, not absolute, but probability that it may be state-sponsored, meaning it came from some country's lab, if you follow me.
unidentified		Well, that's what I was wondering.
unidentified		And I was thinking if it was someone here that wasn't doing it in a lab with protection and so forth, then they would be coming down with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me give you the dark possibility side, all right?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do think it came from a lab somewhere in the world, and I would suggest to you there's at least a 50% possibility that it came from a lab right here in the good old U.S. of A. Now, I may be wrong about that, but I say at least 50-50.
unidentified		Okay.
		Would you think that it would be a terrorist?
		I mean, someone who is American?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a possibility.
unidentified		Well, I guess, of course, it's a possibility.
		But that just seemed to be the strangest thing to me.
		And then I was thinking, well, what if, I mean, if they weren't using biological suits and so forth, then they would come down with it, and then they would either be found dead or in a hospital.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you were working on a pure strain of anthrax, ma'am, just saying you were for a second, would you demand a suit before you went and mixed it up?
unidentified		Yeah, I would think so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Put it in the cauldron and stirred it up or ground it up or whatever.
		You'd say, hey, give me a suit or I'm out of here, right?
		Mm-hmm.
unidentified		So they would have to be very professional, and they would have to do it in the lab with protection and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Otherwise they would bring it and not get it themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise, they're dead.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unless, you know, you've got somebody that is going to sacrifice their life and then they just go in and mix away and inhale away and they turn the batch over to the boss and die.
unidentified		Well, yeah, and I was thinking, well, if it was that, then that means, though, that they would come up dead somewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Come up dead is right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, listen, I got to run.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for the call.
		Take care.
		From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		All the times have come.
		The Golden Halls got high.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Call Art Bell from West of the Rockies at 1-800-6188255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-8255033.
		First-time callers may reach out at area code 775-727-1222.
		Or call the Wildcard line at 7757271295.
		To talk with Art on the Toll 3 International Line, call your AT ⁇ T operator.
		And open dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with our fellow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright, tonight we're gonna have an anti-war show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right, anti-war.
unidentified		And we're not gonna talk about the war.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're gonna do something a little different.
unidentified		We're going to talk to a Harvard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Harvard.
		Now, there was a critical, fatal mistake at Princeton.
		We're gonna talk to a Princeton professor about time travel, which is one of my favorite topics in all the world.
		You know me in time travel.
		I'm the guy who went to Mackinac Island to have a reunion for a movie all about time travel.
		That's me in time travel, and so much more.
		I actually have a time machine, one which I've never tried.
		I would have been shipping to try it, but Professor J. Richard Gott from Princeton will be here talking about exactly that time travel.
		I'll tell you more about him in a moment.
unidentified		Stay right where you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, J. Richard Gott is a professor of astrophysics at Princeton University of Phi Beta Kappa.
		Simicum Laude graduate in physics from Harvard.
		Oh, he was at Harvard.
		Okay, I didn't blow that too badly.
		In 1969, he received his Ph.D. in astrophysics from Princeton in 1973.
unidentified		Oh, right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He was a postdoctoral fellow at the California Institute of Technology and at Cambridge University in England before returning to join the Princeton faculty.
		He is noted for his contributions to cosmology and general relativity.
		He received the Robert J. Trumpler Award from the Astronomical Society of the Pacific and was named Alfred P. Sloan Fellow.
unidentified		Mm-mm-mm-mm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Heavyweight.
		In 1998, he received the Astronomical League Award and Princeton's President's Award for Distinguished Teaching.
		Mine, my, mine.
		He was for many years chair of the judges for the Westinghouse and Intel Science Talent Search, the oldest and most prestigious science competition for high school students in the United States.
		Wow.
		He has also served as chair of the advisory committee for the Hayden Planetarium renovation and contributed to the theory that the universe will continue to expand forever.
		Oh, we'll talk about that.
		He and his colleagues proposed that the clustering pattern of galaxies in the universe should be sponge-like, a prediction now confirmed by numerous surveys.
		He discovered exact solutions to Einstein's field equations for the gravitational field around one cosmic string in 1985 and two moving cosmic strings in 1991.
		This second solution has been of particular interest because if the strings move fast enough at nearly the speed of light, time travel to the past can occur.
		His paper, Can the Universe Create Itself, explores the idea of how the laws of physics may permit the universe to be its own mother.
		Its own mother.
		All these topics that we're going to talk about tonight in detail are discussed in his book, Time Travel in Einstein's Universe.
		Here is Professor Gott.
		Professor, welcome to the program.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		How do you do?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Glad to talk to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you anyway?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		I'm at home.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where is your home?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Princeton.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Princeton.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're at Princeton.
		I said Harvard.
		I thought, man, am I in trouble?
		No, I went there.
		That's good.
		That was a stroke of luck, actually.
		Dumb luck.
		Time travel, Professor, is, I guess, my favorite subject in all the world, actually.
		And I have been thinking so hard about it for years and years and years.
		Is time travel going to be eventually possible, in your opinion?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, time travel to the future is possible.
		Einstein showed that in 1905.
		Moving clocks tick slowly.
		And so if you wanted to visit the world in the year 3000, all you'd have to do is get on a spaceship and go at 99.995% the speed of light, go out to a star 500 light years away, turn around, come back.
		When you got back, the Earth would be 1,000 years older, but you would have only aged 10 years.
		So this is how you can visit the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that would be one way.
		That would be one way.
		But of course, we can't go that fast just yet.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, we send protons at speeds faster than that in our particle accelerators.
		And so speeds that fast are certainly possible.
		And it's a matter of money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For human beings, you mean?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		It's a matter of money.
		It's very expensive because a person weighs, you know, 40 quadrillion times as much as a proton.
		So in terms of energy alone, it's that much more expensive.
		But there have been proposals for fast interstellar travel and using various things, which I could talk about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much money?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Suppose we were to put you in charge right now, and we want a human being to be able to go to the future, and we'd give you unlimited funds.
unidentified		How much would you need?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's see.
		I think you'd need, well, roughly speaking, you'd need sort of 40 quadrillion times as much money as we're spending on, let's say, our particle accelerators.
		No problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll just run the cost of streaming up a buck.
		That's right.
		Okay, well, so you'd need a whole lot of money, a whole lot of money, right?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes, roughly speaking, yes, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But still, it's possible.
		Is it a matter of power?
		Is that what it would take?
		Power?
unidentified		Yes.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		I mean, one way you might accelerate your rocket to high speed is several proposals that are made for fast interstellar travel.
		One of them is to have a laser light sail.
		So on the back of your rocket, you would put a large mirror, and you'd build an enormous laser somewhere in the solar system.
		You'd shine this laser light on the sail.
		And this would accelerate the rocket outward.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would be a constantly increasing acceleration, right?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, you could have a 1G acceleration, just like we experience on the Earth.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		So if you did that and had that gentle acceleration, which you could obviously stand, then the trip to 1,000 years to the future would take you about 24 years in your spaceship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're kidding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For how long, just for fun, how long would you have to accelerate at 1G to achieve 99% of the speed of light, say?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, in this picture, it would take you to get up to this speed would take you about six years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's doable.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		That's doable, yes.
		And it would take you about six years to slow back down to zero when you got to the star at the 1,000 light-years away.
		And you'd accelerate back up for another six years, and then you'd slow back down for another six years.
		So the total trip would take you 24 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you would arrive back on Earth when?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		You'd arrive back on Earth in the year 3000, and in this case, you'd be 24 years older.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holy smokes.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Which is exactly as long as it took Marco Polo to make his voyage, 24 years.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		And I think it'd be as interesting a voyage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, wait a minute then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		actually have the technology we really have Oh, that'd be easy, I think.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, you just build a closed life support system.
		To slow the rocket down, I should mention, probably the best thing to do would be to use matter, antimatter fuel.
		We have antimatter.
		We make it an atom at a time today.
		You would have to make it and store it in large quantities, but that's an efficient way to slow down.
		So you turn off the laser, and then you fire the rocket about the back, and that slows you down for six years.
		When you get to the other end, you use that antimatter rocket to continue to accelerate back toward the Earth.
		And then as you're coming in on the final leg, when you're slowing down, coming into Earth, then we could use a laser to, again, you pull out another mirror, and laser would slow you down efficiently as you came back to Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A thousand years in the future.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's unimaginable.
		I mean, just in the, you know, in the time that I've been alive, I remember when my dad carried in the first little 7-inch television we had, and look where we are today.
		So 1,000 years, you'd be coming to an alien planet, wouldn't you?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, it'd be quite different.
		As different as the world was 1,000 years ago, I think.
		I mean, you can compare what it was like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It'd be an alien planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alien planet.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I should say we've had people that have done time travel like this already to a smaller extent.
		The greatest time traveler to date is a man named Sergei Avdev.
		He's a Russian cosmonaut.
		He spent 748 days on three different spaceships on the nearest space station.
		And because of those trips, he's traveling very slow relative to the speed of light, but still his clock is ticking slightly more slowly.
		And so he's aging slightly less.
		So because of that, he is about 1 50th of a second younger than he would have been if he hadn't have made those trips.
		And so when he arrived back on the Earth, he found the Earth to be 1 50th of a second to the future of where he expected it to be.
		So this is a man who's traveled 1 50th of a second into the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What does that mean for him?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really nothing, right?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a small amount.
		You might say, well, human beings would have a hard time detecting it.
		But it's the sort of thing that can be detected very easily with an atomic clock.
		In fact, a scientist in the 70s took an atomic clock on a plane trip east around the Earth so that the airplane's speed added to the rotational velocity of the Earth.
		And when the plane came back, its atomic clock was 59 nanoseconds slow.
		A nanosecond is a billionth of a second.
		But this was easy for them to measure.
		And it was in accord with what Einstein's theory would have predicted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So even Einstein says time travel is possible to the future at least.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		In Einstein's theory of special relativity, which he brought out in 1905, time travel to the future was possible.
		In his theory of curved space-time, though, his general theory of relativity, which is his theory that explains gravity as being a curvature of space and time, that theory opens the door, opens the possibility for time travel to the past even.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We will get to That.
		I'm still thinking about time travel to the future.
		If you went a thousand years into the future, aside from coming back to an alien planet, with time travel to the future, is there any sort of paradox problem contemplated at all?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just you're a heathen in a thousand years in the future.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you couldn't really take advantage of anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If anything, they'd take advantage of you.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		There are no interesting paradoxes like that as far as let's say that you had an opportunity to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is kind of a different sort of question, Professor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if you could go 1,000 years into the future, would you do it or would you...
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		I think if I came back a thousand years in the future, I would find people here.
		I think that, I mean, if you ask me where I'd like to go in the future, I think I would be even more venturesome.
		I would like to go about 200,000 years in the future.
		That's as long as human beings, our species, Homo sapiens, has been around on the earth.
		And so I'd like to go 200,000 years in the future and see what had become of the human race, see whether we were still surviving, and if so, what we were up to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You believe in evolution, right?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Sure, sure.
		I'd be interested to see what had happened.
		And I would certainly, that would be worth a one-way trip, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it would be a one-way trip, wouldn't it?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, except for the possibilities of traveling to the past.
		H.G. Wells, in his book, it was interesting, his time traveler went 800,000 years into the future to see what had happened to the human race.
		And he found out it had split into two species, one that was living above ground and one that was below.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The below guys ate the above guys.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		It was not a very pleasant one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what would you guess would happen?
		Forget Wells for a second.
		If you try to, you're a scientist.
unidentified		If you try to look that far into the future, what do you see?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think you'd find?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that's an interesting epoch to look at because we've, again, human beings have been around here for 200,000 years.
		And as I talked about in the last chapter of my book, one should consider here the Copernican principle, which is the idea that your location is not special, not likely to be special.
		And so if you're not special, why, you're as likely to live in the last half of human history as in the first half.
		And just like you're as likely to be in the first half of the phone book or in the last half of the phone book.
		So if we're in the first half of human history, why then the human race will last longer than 200,000 years in the future.
		If we're in the last half of human history, then the human race will last less long than 200,000 years in the future.
		So that's an interesting epoch to go to.
		And I would look there to answer the question, are we still around?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know, but you still haven't exactly answered my question.
unidentified		In other words, what kind of world do you think you would find?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if you had to guess right now, what do you think you'd find?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think things, in other words, I would expect to find things there that had been around for much longer than 200,000 years.
		So unfortunately, I would expect to still find, you know, cockroaches around a long time.
		You know, many of the endangered species that we're talking about today that are sort of on the decline, you might not find.
unidentified		Well, it sounds like a good nature hunt so far, but what about the two-legged variety?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, the possibilities, we have a large range of possibilities.
		I think the interesting thing as far as the human race is concerned, the interesting question is would the human race have gone off the Earth?
		We're sitting on a small planet that is full of the bones of extinct species.
		And so it would be a good idea for us to colonize off the Earth, put a colony on Mars, say, and other places.
		It's a life insurance policy against any catastrophe that might occur to us on the Earth, whether that be a natural disaster, ecological disaster, or something that we've brought on ourselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are evading my question.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		I'm getting to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think the world would look like?
		Would there still be human beings?
		If I'm listening to you correctly between the lines, I don't think you think there would be human beings there, do you?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I only ask for your best guess.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Well, I guess I'd be an error on the side of optimism and say yes, a few hundred thousand years.
		If you ask me about a further time in the future, though, like 7.8 million years in the future, then it's less likely that we're around because there's by this Copernican principle, there's a 2.5% chance you're in the first 40th of human history.
		All right, one 40th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Professor, hold it on that note.
		We're at the bottom down, and we'll be right back.
		Stay right there.
unidentified		Stay right there.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Never breaking the chain.
		That probably has something to do with time travel, doesn't it?
		Good morning, Professor J. Richard Guck, Princeton Professor.
		On time travel is my guest.
		That's exactly what we're talking about.
		Time travel.
		Real time travel.
		And yes, it is possible.
		In a moment, we'll discuss a little more about the future of the human race, what we think about it, and then we'll move on.
		Stay right there.
		Back now to Professor J. Richard Gott.
		He's got a book, by the way, that you're going to want to look into if you go to my website, of course, and click on tonight's guest info.
		Time Travel in Einstein's Universe is available.
		You can jump over to Amazon.com and grab a copy of the professor's book, Time Travel in Einstein's Universe.
		Meantime, back we go.
		The reason I asked about that, and I'm pinning you down so hard, is because I frequently interview Professor Kaku.
		Oh, yeah.
		I'm sure you're aware of Professor Kaku.
		And he has the theory that there are different classes of civilizations, type 0, type 1, type 2, type 3, varying from caveman at the bottom of the scale to nearly a god at the top of the scale.
		And he says there are many, no doubt, many type 0 planets like ours.
		And we're on the cusp of becoming a type 1.
		But when you really pin the professor down, the odds of going from 0 to type 1 without blowing oneself up, igniting the planet with the element 92 explosions, is very slim indeed.
		Very slim indeed.
		That's why I was asking whether you think the human animal, you said cockroaches will be here, but they'll probably make it through that kind of Armageddon, right?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes.
		I mean, I think that there's a very interesting argument here.
		We're having this conversation in the United States of America, which happens to be the third largest country in the world in terms of population.
		You've got China with 1.2 billion and India with 1 billion, and we've got 300 million with the third largest.
		There's 190 countries in the world, and half of them, that's half of them, have populations of less than 5.8 million.
		But you are not likely to come from one of those tiny little countries because most people don't live in them.
		They live in the populous countries.
		So only like 97% of the people in the world live in countries that are larger than the median in population.
		So we are likely, this is the good news, we are likely, our civilization right now in terms of population is likely to be one of the larger ones, larger than the median, larger than half of them that you would find out in the universe.
		Other intelligent civilizations sprinkled out in the universe.
		And the reason for that is that most intelligent observers in the universe would come from the more populous civilizations.
		Now, the Type I civilization that just controls the energy of its planet, which is a bit ahead of where we are, this could have a population that would fill up a planet like ours with a population of 6 billion.
		The Type II civilization that could control the energy of its entire star, this could have a population, let's say, a billion times larger than ours, maybe 100 million times as large as our own.
		Therefore, if you're not special, if you're just an intelligent observer in the universe, then those civilizations that have achieved this type 2 status must be rare compared with the type 1 civilizations.
		Very rare, yeah.
		Because otherwise, you'd be likely to be living on one right now.
		So the ones that colonize their whole galaxy, say, again, if you colonize the whole galaxy, you can have a population a billion times larger than we have on our one planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of aliens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a lot of aliens.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of them.
		But the chances of that must be low, of us doing that, must be low, because otherwise we'd be living on that one right now, and we would know about.
		It doesn't mean that they're not impossible.
		They just have to be rare.
		And we live in an enormous universe, so even rare things can happen.
		The universe may be infinite in extent, in fact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then your trip 1,000 years into the future, even 1,000 years would be a real chancy trip.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
		But I'd be willing to take the trip.
		You know what?
		If you came back...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you kind of cavalier as you say that.
		You know, I saw the movie with Jody Foster that I so dearly love.
		And it was fairly true in its possibilities, wasn't it?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was very interesting because Carl Sagan, who's a friend of mine, he wrote this book, Contact, about a character who traveled through a wormhole to a distant location.
		That was his plot.
		And so he wrote to Kip Thorne, expert on general relativity, and Sagan wanted to know if this possibility of taking a shortcut to a distant place through jumping through a wormhole, was the physics of that.
		And so Thorne looked into the physics of that with his two colleagues, and he found that if you manipulated the wormhole mouse correctly, you could make a time machine out of that.
		And so that's what got this great interest in time travel to the past possible, which is possible under Einstein's theory of curved space-time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then it is, I mean, the whole thing is at least scientifically plausible.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		The way this works is that if you go faster and faster, you know, toward the speed of light, your time slows down.
		But there's a famous limerick that says there was a young lady named Bright.
		She traveled far faster than light.
		She left one day in a relative way and returned home the previous night.
		And so the trouble is in special relativity, you can't beat a light beam.
		It's sort of the ultimate speed limit in the universe.
		But in general relativity, where space and time are curved, you can beat a light beam by taking a shortcut through a wormhole, or as I found, by going around an opposite side of a cosmic string.
		And you can beat a light beam to its destination.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So again, if you were sitting in Jody Foster's seat in front of that panel, and they laid it on you, look, Professor, yes, we are prepared to spend the money to send you a thousand years into the future.
		But really, your family, everything you know, everything you're familiar with, it's all going to be gone, Professor.
		It's a one-way ticket to the future.
		As you really, really, really thought about that, you would jump at it, huh?
unidentified		Yes, I would go.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Let me say, I met one of my friends is Story Musgrave, the astronaut who helped to fix the Hubble Space Telescope.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		And I think at the present time, I mean, he told me, he said, I'd be willing to go to Mars to colonize Mars and not come back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, and not come back?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so that's right.
		Because, you know, it's the astronauts on, it's having the astronauts on Mars starting up a new civilization over there, really having children on Mars and developing a whole colony on Mars that would give us some safety margin life insurance policy for any kind of catastrophe that occurred on Earth.
		And so it's important, I think, to do this while we have the space technology that we have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or put it away before we destroy ourselves, right?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes, or we could say, absolutely.
		Or we could abandon the space program.
		I think instead of just destroying ourselves, I think one of the possibilities that people don't often consider, but which I think is a very real possibility, if I came back at a time, you know, say 200,000 years from now, you might well find the population to be smaller than it is today.
		Because just like you and I come from a large country, because most people will, we also come from a century, now the 21st century, where the population is larger than it is in the median century of the 200,000 years people have been here.
		So we're likely to live at a population peak because most people do.
		So the population could well go down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, in fact, the current trends in industrialized countries are that it is going down.
		Certainly here in America, we're reducing our reproduction rate.
		Right.
		So I would agree with that.
		But again, I would think the chances, even a thousand years in the future, look, based on current trends, I mean, look around the world right now.
		Nuclear proliferation all over the place.
		India and Pakistan are making noises at each other tonight.
		We're in the middle of God knows what, and it could become God knows what.
		There are so many dangers, biological, chemical.
		Surely somebody out there has a bug that, you know, a 12 monkeys bug out there somewhere.
		And so the odds of our still being around in 1,000 years, with Dr. Kaku's theory or anybody else's, it seems to me, are pretty slim, possible, but slim.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think the sobering thought is that we're sitting here, you and I are born, and we're sitting here and the human race is 200,000 years old.
		And the typical mammal species last 2 million years.
		That's the typical longevity, the average longevity of mammal species.
		So we're not remarkably old relative to other mammal species.
		In fact, if you look across species, we're just all species to mammal species.
		Mammals don't live any longer than your average insect species and so forth.
		And so there's no big positive correlation that we would like to hear between intelligence and how long you last as a species.
		So I think all of these things make us keenly aware, particularly the fact that you and I are having this conversation on the Earth, on the home planet.
		If people colonize off and colonize the whole galaxy, then you and I are very lucky to be living on the home planet when most all human beings, the intelligent beings that evolved from us, will be living elsewhere in the galaxy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that's our safety margin, right?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		That's our safety margin.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		That's what we should be doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Professor.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		But if we don't do that, if we're just stuck on the Earth and we go extinct on the Earth, then you and I are not special at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		All right, look, let's talk a little bit about travel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, let's for a second.
		You believe, I'm sure, that in 1,000 years, 2,000 years, 5,000 years, somewhere in there, time travel to the past is probably going to be technically feasible.
		Fair?
		If we don't destroy ourselves?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think, again, to do time travel to the past, as I would mention, time travel to the past is a project really that only a super civilization could attempt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Uncle.
		No, a million years, Professor.
		A million years from now, time travel, if we survive, might.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		And keep getting bigger.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		it should be possible, though, shouldn't it?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, we think that it may be possible under the laws of physics.
		And so some super civilization, if it's possible under the laws of physics, then some super civilization, maybe not us, but maybe some intelligent civilization in the universe, will be lucky enough to survive and become powerful enough.
		I mean, just to give you an idea, the sort of wormhole solution that Kip Thorne and his associates talked about involves a mass of 200 million solar masses, so 200 million times the mass of the Sun.
		So we're talking about really vast engineering projects here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but look how far we've come.
		So let's assume for the sake of the discussion that we have arrived there.
		It's a million years in the future, and we now have time traveled to the past.
		If we survive.
		My question is, is it not at least probable that we didn't survive?
		Because shouldn't there be time travelers here now?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Ah, well, that's a very interesting question.
		The solution that I found with cosmic strings and the solution that Kip Thorne found with the wormholes have the following property.
		That before you're taking space-time and you're twisting it, when the two cosmic strings are moving past each other, as the strings pass, then you can circle around them and travel to the past.
		But before that, there's an epoch before which, both in the wormhole and in the string solutions, where there's no time travel is possible yet.
		And so there's no using the time machine, so to speak, before you've built it.
		So if you build a time machine capable of going to the past in the year 3000, you might use it to go from 3002 back to 3001, but not to 2001 because that's before you built the time machine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then time travel to a time any second before you built that machine might not be possible?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good answer to the question.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so the answer to why we haven't been overrun by time travel to the future is very simple.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		No one's built a time machine yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No one ever gave me that answer before.
		That's...
		Why...
		Why would...
		Why would that be?
		In other words, if the physical conditions that you specify could exist to allow that travel, what would prohibit it to a time prior to the invention of the machine itself?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me give an example.
		In the wormhole solution, here's the way the wormhole time machine works.
		Let's say we have a wormhole that connects us with a distant location near Alpha Centauri.
		This would look like a sphere.
		It would look like the mouth of the wormhole.
		It would look to you like a sphere, like one of these reflecting balls that you see in a garden.
		It reflects the whole garden.
		Except in that, what you would be seeing in there would not be your earthly garden, but one on Alpha Centauri.
		Right.
		Because you'd be looking through the wormhole.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		If you jump into that sphere, you would pop out in Alpha Centauri.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		And you would have gone there, they'd only maybe be 10 feet through the wormhole instead of four light years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Now, when you got to Alpha Centauri, let's say we were making the trip in the year of 3000, you would pop out in Alpha Centauri.
		But then, you would pop out in Alpha Centauri, let's say, in the year 3000.
		Well, no time travel there.
		However, Thorne showed that if you move the wormhole mouth that's near the Earth, let's say you take it on a little trip 2.5 light years away and back at 99% the speed of light, you'll find that if, let's say there was an astronaut who was standing right in the middle of the wormhole mouth, if you would look at him as he went from the Earth, you would see him go away and come back at high speed.
		So you would see him aging very slowly.
		Let's say only six months.
		But it's five years later.
		So just like the slowly aging astronaut, you would see him aging slowly.
		So he would look six months older to you, even though it's the year now on Earth, it's the year 3005.
		So on the other side of the wormhole, though, that mouth has not been moving relative to Alpha Centauri, because there's nothing over there to pull it around.
		You're pulling it around near the Earth with a massive spaceship moving it around.
		And so the mouth on Alpha Centauri is stationary.
		So someone looking at Alpha Centauri looks at the astronaut and he sees them aging normally.
		So that means that the astronaut is six months older.
		It means that the people looking at that astronaut in Alpha Centauri are also only six months older.
		So that means once that mouth has come back to the Earth, you jump through that wormhole, and now you find yourself not in the year 3005 as you were on Earth, but you find yourself in the year 3000 plus 6 months.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Okay.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		And so now the two mouths are desynchronized, you see, because you've moved one of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, I understand.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		So now you're on the year 3006 months, and it's four light years back to Earth.
		You just travel the ordinary way back at nearly the speed of light.
		You arrive a little more than four years later.
		And so now it's 3004 and six months, and you've arrived back home before you started.
		So what built the time machine was desynchronizing those wormhole mouths.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha, all right.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		That was something you did in the year 3000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so prior to that, Professor Hula, we'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is coast to coast AM top of the hour coming up.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Professor J. Richard Doc is my guest from Princeton.
		He is a physics professor here talking about time travel.
		He says it's possible we're going to discuss all kinds of things agree.
		Like to time travel one way or the other.
		He'll be right back.
unidentified		Stay right where you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, back now to Professor Gott.
		So, Professor, even with all you have told me, I'm still not totally clear.
		You're saying that under no circumstances would time travel to a time earlier than the time machine was invented be possible.
		Is that an absolute?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, see, well, you have to, the time machine has to be in existence when you're using it.
		So, for example, you might think of space and time like a sheet of paper that you would hold up, and the top of the page is toward the future, and the bottom of the page is toward the past, and the horizontal dimension represents space.
		And so, here, space-time is pretty flat.
		But then imagine crumpling up the top of the paper.
		You're creating a time machine.
		You're twisting space up there in the future.
		And you're creating a loop.
		You're creating a change in geometry so that you can circle back to the past.
		Very much like Magellan's crew left Europe.
		They went west, west, west, west, west, west, steadily west, and yet they returned back to Europe because the Earth was curved.
		This could only happen because the Earth was curved.
		So likewise here, if you imagine taking a piece of paper and curling it up like a cylinder, that line that's going straight up the page could circle back and come back to where it started.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can imagine that, yes.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so that's what's happening.
		The time traveler is going always locally toward the future.
		Time seems to flow perfectly normally to him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then the H.G. Wells thing was baloney.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, you know, it's very interesting because H.G. Wells, although in the story itself, it looked like you could take the time machine almost anywhere, curiously, the time traveler invents, in the story, the time traveler invents the time machine, takes it 800,000 years to the future, and brings back to his friends one week after he invented the time machine.
		So he does not violate this rule.
		He doesn't go back before he invented the time machine machine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, then he comes back after he invented.
		Then movies where there is travel to the past prior to when any machine or anything has been invented to use, they're baloney.
		Yes.
		Therefore, paradox questions are baloney.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Paradox questions are not baloney because if I go from the year 3002 back to the year 3001, after I've created my time machine, you could still kill yourself, or you could go from the year 3100 back to the year 3001, and then you could kill your grandmother as a young girl.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, then let's talk about that.
		I know what Professor Cocku said in answer to that question.
		If you were to go back and kill your grandmother, your mother, whatever, even yourself, what would happen?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, scientists who deal with working on these time travel solutions in general relativity, they have to deal with this paradox.
		And there are two answers to the grandmother paradox.
		And they both solve the grandmother paradox, but they're different answers.
		The conservative notion is that the time travelers don't change the past.
		They were always part of it.
		So if there were time travelers, if someone had built a time machine in 1900, you know, so you could go back to the Titanic, if there were time travelers that went back to the Titanic in this picture, they may have warned the captain about the iceberg, but he didn't pay attention to the warning because the ship actually sank.
		And so it's one four-dimensional thing, and you may have a world line or a path through space and time that your world line may loop back and visit the same event twice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're just saying you can't change the past.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		You can't change the past.
		That's a conservative view.
		The other view is that there's the idea of the many-worlds theory of quantum mechanics.
		And that is that there are many worlds existing in parallel.
unidentified		Here we go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now you're going down the Professor Kaku path.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's right.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		He was quite right about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All you would do is virtually create a new universe, a universe in which things unwound in a totally different way because of what you did.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it would not Interfere with the original one.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To which theory do you prefer to subscribe?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would say that I tend to be on the conservative side there.
		And I like the idea that one has one self-consistent picture because Kim Thorne and his associates did a lot of experiments with imagining, trying to produce paradoxes, billiard balls going back in the past and hitting each other, knocking each other out of the way of wormholes.
		And they were always able to find a self-consistent solution.
		So that didn't have any paradoxes in it.
		However, I would say that this is an unsettled question and that many of the people who are at the forefront of looking at understanding quantum mechanics do take the many worlds theory of quantum mechanics quite seriously.
		So I would not say that hard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is a growing theory in acceptance, isn't it?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think a lot of physicists might say that it's sort of an unnecessary addition that you can sort of understand the rules of quantum mechanics without relying on the many worlds theory.
		But again, as I would say, a lot of the people that are working at the forefront of trying to understand quantum mechanics do indeed take it seriously.
		So again, I wouldn't come down strongly on either side there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I prefer the latter theory because it seems to me it answers things more readily.
		I mean, if you went back and prevented the assassination of President Kennedy, surely things would be really, really different.
		I'm supposing they would be different.
		For one thing, he'd be alive.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or I suppose...
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		And that can happen in the many-world theory of quantum mechanics.
		Absolutely, yes.
		And you're not...
		The time traveler is basically, you know, jumping from...
		causing the universe to branch off on a different branch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, Professor, so that I understand the other theory, if I were to be able to go back, assuming the time travel had already been invented then, and prevent the assassination of Kennedy, I would be ultimately always, no matter how many times I tried it, frustrated and Kennedy would, in some other way, another bullet would find him, another, the grassy knoll guy would get him, you know, whatever.
		It would happen no matter what I did.
		It would be incredibly, totally frustrating.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because no matter what I did, it wouldn't change it, right?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		It's like you, in other words, assuming a time machine had been built before then, any time travelers that were there, why, you would have seen them on the Zaputa film.
		They would be standing there.
		And they'd always been there.
		And, you know, if you found that you tried to get up into the book depository, you'd find that something prevented you because the shot was fired.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because the universe can't allow that to occur.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, it occurred that one way.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Like I say, no matter how many times you watch the movie Casablanca, why Ingrid Bergman always gets on that plane.
unidentified		Well, you know, what would...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If we were back trying to affect something, would we be seen?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		would we not be seen what would be In the physical, in every way, you'd be seen.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		You'd be there.
		You have atoms.
		If you're made out of atoms, you would walk around like anyone else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but it's such an act of finality, for example, to kill somebody.
		That's where I begin to have problems with that theory.
		I mean, you killed them, you killed them.
		You're saying that something would go wrong.
		The gun would go off.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		There's a lot of sort of time travel stories that address this kind of question and tell a self-consistent story.
		For example, you mentioned you went to Mackinac Island.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, oh, yes.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		This is somewhere in time.
		And in that story, Christopher Reeves character, there's a couple of interesting things about physics, about that story.
		Christopher Reeves character meets an old Jane Seymour, and she gives him a watch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A watch, yes.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		And she says, come back for me.
		He takes this watch, by using hypnosis, you know, and so on, which we'll skip over that last.
		But anyway, he gets back in time, and he takes the watch with him.
		He gives the watch to her, and she takes it with her, keeps it the rest of his life.
		He's sucked back to the future because he's made a mistake, and he's brought a coin from the present day with him, and he breaks the spell, and he's back in the future, and he can't get back anymore.
		And so she takes that watch with her and gives it to him.
		So an interesting thing about that, there's several interesting things about that story.
		One is that when he goes to, when he's researching the time travel, he's encouraged because he sees her picture in the hotel lobby from 1912, and he wants to go back there.
		And he gets a check-in book, a ledger from that epic.
		He sees that he has signed in.
		His own signature is there in the 1912 book.
		And the room number and the time is 9.18 a.m.
		And so when he goes back in the past, he endeavors to get there at exactly 9.18 a.m.
		So he'll sign that book to be self-consistent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he's up in front of the registry and looks at the time and says, oh my God, this is wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there's a little delay and then he gets to put 9.18 in it.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		And it's perfect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's absolutely perfect.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Now the watch is interesting because the watch, the path of that watch through space-time, I mean, your world line is a line that goes through space and time.
		It starts at your birth.
		It goes through all the events of your life.
		And it ends up at your death.
		But that watch, because there's a time loop, that watch has a world line that's a circle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		And so that watch never went anywhere near a watch factory.
		James Seymour had it.
		She gave it to Christopher Reeves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Reeve took it back.
		He gave it to her.
		Where did they ever visit a watch factory?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was the one question that could not be answered, of course.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And so these are particles called gin particles that have circular world lines.
		And you have to consider them when you consider the quantum mechanics of all this.
		And one of the things I should mention is that to know whether you can do this, really, according to laws of physics, it's possible under general relativity.
		But then when we add in quantum mechanics, to really understand whether you could actually do it, we probably need to understand the laws of quantum gravity, which we don't at present.
		And so that's one of the reasons that the problem is particularly interesting to physicists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back to Michigan for a second.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a physicist.
		Yes.
		If I were to ask you to consider the possibility that, after all, there are some amazing things going on.
		There's some amazing research going on right now at Princeton with the random number generators that I'm going to be spending some time on.
		There are many who believe that remote viewing is real and that there is a collective out there and that maybe it has something to do with another dimension.
		I don't have the slightest idea, Professor.
		I just know remote viewing certainly appears real.
		A lot of the work going on at Princeton seems real.
		A lot of it seems related to this thing that A lot of the mystics are calling this collective.
		And I understand, as a physicist, it's hard for you to probably grasp.
		But do you imagine time travel to be possible in the manner described in that movie or something very much like it?
		Can you even consider it?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, I'm interested in actually doing the physical time travel.
		I'm with you.
		And so this is, I mean, in that movie, he sort of did it in hypnosis or something, which, again, I found to be not a physical mechanism.
		So I think the interesting thing is that, again, if you'd come back and you'd say, well, in Isaac Newton's view of the universe, time travel really wasn't possible.
		And so here in Einstein's universe, where we have the concept of curved space-time, and we have these time is flexible, different clocks tick at different rates, you can really physically go back in time or toward the future requiring any quantum effects.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm with you all the way, Professor.
		I'm just asking.
		I think the answer is probably you cannot consider that, can you?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		I haven't been, no.
		Okay.
		I'm looking at actually doing it using the laws of physics that we know.
		And one of the reasons that people take these solutions of general relativity seriously is that Einstein made predictions about light bending around the sun.
		And these were confirmed in an eclipse expedition in 1919.
		They got Einstein's value and not the value that Isaac Newton would have predicted.
		So we have a lot of tests of general relativity.
		And so we take things like black holes seriously and these solutions where space and time are twisted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so I'll just leave that alone.
		Obviously, you're not going to consider it.
		Let's see where to go.
		Is there any research that you would suspect that might be going on right now in, say, private labs or even secret government labs for that matter into this whole question of time travel?
		In other words, could there be active research going on that we're not aware of?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		I would suspect not because again, Einstein's equations tell you that twisting space and time takes a certain amount of energy.
		His equations of general relativity say that mass and energy creates curvature of space-time.
		So if you want to have a time machine of a certain size, if you want it to go back a certain amount of time, if you want to have build any of these things that a human being could go through and so forth, these must necessarily involve large amounts of energy.
		And it's, you know, again, like I said for some of these, these are like hundreds of millions of times the mass of the Sun.
		So it's hard to hide large amounts of energy or get it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is, but amazingly, every now and then the human race discovers a new form of energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		After all, nuclear energy, it's here now.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In one form, not the best form, but it's here.
		And so every now and then we suddenly stumble into some new form of energy.
		And there are many people who believe there are other forms of energy to be found.
		They're beginning to speculate a whole lot about them now.
		If somebody were to suddenly discover one, then time travel could be a lot closer very quickly, couldn't it?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but I think, again, you have a situation where the energy has to come from somewhere, and there's laws in general relativity that govern that.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		So, I mean, as we may get to, one of the places to look for time machines is in the early universe where space and time are sharply curved and where you have a lot of energy to deal with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Suppose we suddenly found some of this special matter.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There would be potentially a whole lot of energy involved in that, wouldn't there?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, the thing is that you'd see, I mean, for example, we have a lot of dark matter in the galaxy today.
		And in fact, it looks like most of the matter holding the galaxies and clusters of galaxies together is not in the form of ordinary particles like electrons, protons, and neutrons that we're all familiar with.
		These are other particles.
		These are weakly interacting with our particles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, we're at another breakpoint, but there are special particles out there, aren't there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That they speculate about.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		I'm not exactly sure what you're saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's matter and antimatter, and then okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on, Professor.
unidentified		We'll be right back, and we'll do a little more with this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm Mark Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This, of course, is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Well, I think it's time to get ready To realize just what I have found I have been only here Welcome to the Abuse Wanna take a ride?
		Call Art Bell from West of the Rockies at 1-800-6188255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-8255033.
		First-time callers may reach out at area code 7757271222.
		Or call the wirecard line at 7757271295.
		To talk with ARD on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and add them down 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		Here's what I was thinking.
		In other words, if we were suddenly stumble into some new energy source, which is an ever-present possibility, you never know.
		Experimental AML country would be done, right?
		But if we got enough power to just make that first leap, say a thousand years, two thousand years into the future, and we did that, and came back with the technology from that time, and used it to jump even further and so forth, you'd get the idea, right?
		Would that come under the paradox, uh, category?
		Or do you think we could suddenly, before you know it, in the space of an eye blink, literally, become a type 3 civilization?
		I think that's the question that I was trying to ask.
		If we were to discover enough power to take that first jump, then why not?
unidentified		From there, hey, sky's the limit, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here once again is the professor.
		And professor, did you follow what I was saying?
		If we were to stumble into that first additional amount of energy, even though it would be a very great amount, I understand, enough to allow us to make the first leap, could you then potentially leapfrog your way technologically to a type 3 pretty quickly?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, one thing might lead to another.
		I was going to pick up on what you were saying there about creating new energy.
		So I think one of the best possibilities for this is a high-density vacuum state like existed in the very early universe.
		And the universe expanded by a large factor and got larger and larger and created more and more energy.
		And there's a possibility of making this kind of vacuum state in the lab.
		Alan Guth and his colleagues have talked about this.
		You take a sphere of matter, which might only be 10, I don't know, 50 or 100 pounds worth, and you compress it to enormous densities so that you're heating it up to the temperature that we had in the early universe.
		This takes an enormous amount of energy, of course.
		But once you did that, it would usually just collapse and form a black hole, and nothing special would happen.
		But occasionally, it would quantum tunnel to a state where it had formed like a doorknob hanging off a door.
		And this would be a baby universe there.
		And you would be in the lab that's in the door.
		And you would see, it would look like a black hole to you because you would just see the neck connecting the doorknob to the door.
		You'd be looking in.
		But this knob, it would start expanding faster and faster.
		And this would make a whole universe.
		It would create an enormous amount of energy over there.
		But to you, it would just look like a black hole in the lab.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Professor, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they toying with something like that at Brookhaven?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, some people have talked about.
		I mean, one of the things that's been discussed is that there are some experiments that have been done with making a medium, Bose-Einstein condensate, where the speed of light is very slow.
		And when the speed of light is very slow in this medium, you might think that this would make it very easy for you to make a black hole.
		It would lower the energy requirements to make a black hole or to make a time machine of a given size because the speed of light was slower and it would take, you know, therefore it would be easier to do.
		But you have to distinguish between the speed of light through empty space, which is 300,000 kilometers a second, that's the speed of light that we know, and the speed of light in a medium, which is less.
		Like in water, it goes the slower light goes, you know, at sort of three quarters of that speed through a medium, through water.
		And so that doesn't, the speed of light through empty space, which is 300,000 kilometers a second, what relates years and time to, that's the thing that establishes the relationship between space and time, a year and time versus a light year in space.
		And so it doesn't mean that it's easier to twist space and time or that it takes less energy to twist space and time just because the velocity of light in that medium you're dealing with is slow.
		So according to the equations of general relativity, it should still take just as much energy to curl the space and time around to make a time machine that would be 10 meters across and would allow you to go back a year or something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Aren't they working on the possibility of many big bangs?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, to some of these experiments, what they're doing is they're sort of simulating what would happen.
		And you can use this slow velocity of light to sort of simulate what could happen.
		One of the things that people have mentioned that's an interesting thing, I don't know if this is not at Brookhaven necessarily, but one of the things that's certainly been talked about is that if we build a bigger and bigger particle accelerator,
		the worry was expressed by Martin Rees and Pete Hutt that if you had an energetic enough reaction with two particles hitting each other, you might Change the vacuum state in the universe.
		And this could either be a higher density vacuum state, which would cause one of these doorknobs, would cause a baby universe to be born, or it could cause a lowering in the vacuum energy density state, which would cause a lower density bubble, which would expand at nearly the speed of light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bring it down to where we can understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are the possible consequences for us if somebody should achieve that?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could be catastrophic because if you had a lowering of the vacuum energy density, we know today that the universe is showing an acceleration.
		It's expanding faster and faster.
		And we think that this is due to a very small low-energy vacuum state.
		This is a very low energy density.
		And it has a negative pressure throughout, which is a negative gravitational effect and causes the universe to expansion to accelerate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, the catastrophic part.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would happen?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, if we created a bubble of zero energy density vacuum, that would expand out at nearly the speed of light.
		And the laws of physics inside that bubble might be different.
		It might cause protons to decay, for example.
		And so it might cause a catastrophic decay of the stuff that we're made of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So essentially, we would or could blink out.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Now, the reason we don't worry about this too much is that we have observed cosmic rays in the universe created by natural causes.
		And these are very high-energy particles, higher energy, in fact, quite higher energy than the ones that we're currently creating in the lab.
		And these would have had the chance to naturally hit each other over the past history of the universe.
		And so if any one of those collisions, which we can calculate how often they would have occurred, if any one of those collisions had caused a bubble like this to occur, we wouldn't be having this conversation here.
		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nevertheless, there is that possibility.
		And it's always interesting to ask the opinion of the scientists.
		If somebody was on the precipice of doing this, and even though it was a lesser consideration that we would blink out and that the catastrophic occurrence would happen, most scientists would go right ahead and push the damn button anyway, wouldn't they?
		I mean, doesn't all of history support that?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, we do show a tendency to be that way.
		I would say that, you know, the point of some of these papers that was written is that, in other words, we should take that question seriously when we get to an energy in our particle accelerators that it begins to exceed the energy that we've already seen in the cosmic ray particles.
		Then we would be in unknown territory, and then we couldn't be sure that we might not be causing a catastrophic decay of the vacuum state, which could destroy the Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and why is it not reasonable to assume that if that does at some point become possible, many, many, many, many, many civilizations push the button.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's why they're not here anymore.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that's a very interesting point.
		Let me discuss that on two different levels.
		If they've done this catastrophic thing of making a bubble of low-density vacuum that expanded, this would just keep on expanding.
		And so if one of them, say, a billion years ago and 500 million light years away had produced this, then we would already be engulfed in this bubble, so we wouldn't be having this conversation.
		So there are some limits on that kind of catastrophe that we could set by the fact that we're still here talking about it.
		But many civilizations may, as you say, may blow themselves up or come to a bad end because the, again, because we're having this conversation on Earth.
		We have not yet successfully colonized the galaxy and so forth.
		And so many civilizations may, the typical one, may typically not get off its planet.
		And you wonder why that might be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that might be one answer.
		All right.
		A little while ago, you said something I'd like to explore.
		You said, since the Big Bang, we've been expanding and creating more and more energy.
		You said that, right?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would like to understand how from any initial explosion, no matter the scale, there would be more energy.
		In my way of thinking, from any explosion, any initial source of energy, there would be progressively less energy.
		How can there be more energy?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a very interesting fact in general relativity, and that is that the equations of general relativity tell you that locally, if you look in one tiny region, you never see energy and mass and energy coming out of nothing.
		And in fact, the equations are designed to say, that's one of the things that they produce.
		But in curved space-time, that doesn't mean that globally you can't do it because there's no place, so to speak, in the universe, in cosmology, there's no place far away from all the gravitational sources for you to stand to measure an energy standard.
		So in inflation, in the theory of inflation, the universe starts off as a very small thing, and it's expanding at a high rate.
		In that early epoch, the universe the total energy in the universe goes up.
		And this is because of this peculiar effect in general relativity that energy is not conserved in a global solution.
		Even though at each little point, if you look, you'd say, yes, energy looks conserved to me.
		Still, because it's curved, there's a possibility of taking a little bit of energy and blowing it up and making a lot of energy out of it.
		And in fact, this is the trick that the universe has used to take a little bitty tiny thing that may be 10 to the minus 24 centimeters across and blow it up into an enormous universe full of galaxies and things that we see today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me ask you the question that I ask everybody and never get a good answer to and never will, and that is, I'm told that everything that we now see, all the planets, all the suns, all the everything, came from one initial explosion, from something that was probably smaller than a quark.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, my mind doesn't understand that, and I don't think many minds do understand that.
		How can so much come possibly from so little?
		It just doesn't work in the world of physics, does it?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Only in God's world.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, one of the things that we've discovered is that, again, the total energy density, the content of the universe isn't conserved in an expanding universe.
		Well, let me give one example.
		In the epoch since the universe was about 300,000 years old, the universe during that epoch up to quite recently was slowing down in its expansion, but it was getting bigger and bigger.
		So cosmic microwave background photons that filled up the whole that are batting around from the very early hot phase of the universe, each one of these photons has been stretched as the universe has expanded by about a factor of 1,000.
		So they're longer wavelengths today.
		This is called the redshift effect.
		And again, you can imagine a balloon that's expanding with a wave drawn around it.
		As the balloon expands, the wavelength of the wave gets longer.
		And so by Einstein's work, why the energy of each one of those photons goes down.
		So the universe has been cooling off and losing energy, as you said.
		It's been losing energy as it's expanded.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And slowing down, right?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		And also the expansion rate has been slowing down because the galaxies are all pulling on each other and slowing the gravity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, Professor has two great theories about that.
		Others say, no, no, no.
		The universe is not only expanding, but it's speeding up.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		It's speeding up today.
		In other words, it spent a long time.
		There are several epochs of the expansion of the universe.
		We think that in the very early universe, we had a period of very rapid accelerating expansion called inflation.
		In that epoch, the energy density in the universe was dominated by a quantum vacuum state that was very high energy density and had a negative pressure.
		And this negative pressure has a negative gravitational effect.
		And it caused the universe to, it caused a repulsion effect that caused the universe to accelerate faster and faster.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got that part.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And eventually energy was lost.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		And yet when the energy density remained the same during this period, because if you imagined a box in this universe, you would say, oh, here's a box.
		It has negative pressure and it has a positive energy density.
		Now the expansion of the universe pulls on the sides of that box.
		And that, because there's a negative pressure or a suction, this expansion of the universe does work on the box and adds to the energy density in the box.
		So if you were looking at it as one little box, you'd say, I understand what's going on.
		The energy density in the universe is staying the same because I'm in this expanding box and the walls are pulling outward and therefore I'm getting an additional energy.
		But actually what's pulling on you is just the next box.
		So from the point of view of the total energy density content of the universe, you're seeing that go up just as the volume of the universe increases.
		So during that epoch, the energy density in the universe is going up as it's getting bigger.
		Then this vacuum energy decays into normal particles that we would experience and it becomes very hot.
		And then the pressure is positive and you get an opposite effect where as the universe expands, things cool off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And slow.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		And during that epoch, the expansion is slowing.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		But recently, for the last several billion years, at least, the universe has been showing a renewed accelerating expansion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dark matter?
		Dark matter?
		Is that the answer?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		This is called dark energy.
		Dark energy.
		It permeates all of space.
		It's not what's holding the clusters of galaxies together.
		That's dark matter, which is some other particle.
unidentified		Dark energy.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		But this dark energy just pervades all of space.
		It's very low density.
		It's like 10 to the minus 29 grams per cubic centimeter.
		It's just very tiny.
		But it's enough to give a cosmic repulsion and to cause the universe again to start a new epoch of accelerated expansion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe then that eventually we'll be lonely here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, all other systems, stars, and everything will move away from us and we'll be essentially by ourselves.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a yes?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		In fact, the galaxies around us that are in the local group, like Andromeda Galaxy, which is actually coming back toward us, it's all gravitationally bound.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Eventually it's going to either pass us or whatever.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		It'll collide with our galaxies.
		It'll sort of merge together and so forth.
		But other galaxies out there, like beyond the Virgo cluster, those galaxies are going to be fleeing from us faster and faster.
		And eventually, the space is expanding so fast that it's like a rubber band that's going to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it exponential?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		Oh, my.
		Listen, Professor, hold on.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		I want to come back and take some calls if you're up for it, all right?
		Sure.
		Stay right where you are.
		We will be right back.
		coast to coast a.m.
		in the nighttime.
unidentified		A very old friend came by today, cause he was telling everyone how to do yesterday, and yesterday's Wanna take a ride?
		Well, call our bell from west to the Rockies at 1-800-6188-255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-8255-033.
		First time callers may return at 17757271222.
		The wire card by yourself and at 17757271295.
		And to return on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them file 800-893-0903.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Those are the numbers according to the Professor.
		Professor God, yesterday's gone, alright?
		You can't go back.
		You might be able to go to tomorrow, but that would have to be from the day after tomorrow.
		Yesterday's gone.
		And it's not coming back.
		But the professor is.
unidentified		In a moment...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, there are so, so many things that we could talk about.
		Aye, aye, aye, aye, aye.
		But I want to turn the professor over to you for any questions you might have.
		So, Professor, welcome back.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's see what lies out there for us, shall we?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Professor Gott.
unidentified		Hello.
		Well, hello, Art.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you're very welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		Art, this is Tom at KSFO 560 Hot Talk in San Francisco.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Francisco.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Art, I've got to say for all the callers, maybe they won't repeat it, but talking to you, sir, is like the sun coming up tomorrow morning.
unidentified		It is so good to hear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's very kind.
		Thank you.
		Do you have a question for the professor or something?
unidentified		Dude, Professor Gott, this is a very, very, very intelligent audience that you're speaking to, sir.
unidentified		And with all due respect, I have got to say that after two hours, I have not yet been able to determine, it's my own problem, whether you believe that a time machine device that is created today on the 17th of October 2001 can bring us into the or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you saying into the past?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You cut out there.
unidentified		Sure.
		All right, I did say that.
		Into the past, September 16th.
		Yes or no?
		And all further discussion has to emanate from that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		If you create the time machine today, before that, space-time was really more or less flat, and you've twisted space-time today in order to make a time loop, in order to make a time machine, then you won't be able to use the time machine to go back to yesterday or the day before yesterday or last year.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		You could use it three days from now to come back to two days from now.
unidentified		Well, that's kind of sad.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I always really wanted to go back to the mid-50s.
		I love the mid-50s.
		I had so much fun.
		I was a ham operator.
		The sun cycle was great.
		God, I was having a ball.
		So that's not going to be possible, is it?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, these are the solutions.
		This is what the general relativity solutions look like.
		They say that a time machine you can make by twisting space-time.
		And before you've made the time machine, you can't use it to go back before that epoch.
		Now, Li Jing Li and I have talked about that there might be a naturally occurring time machine, not one baby, but one that existed at the very beginning of the universe that has quit.
		So it existed for a while at the very beginning and it quit.
		In this picture, you have Professor Linde in California has shown that inflating universes can butt off baby universes like branches coming off a tree.
		And each branch grows up to be as big as the trunk and sprouts its own branches.
		You get an infinite fractal tree of universes there.
		But you still might wonder where the trunk came from.
		So we propose that one of the branches simply curved back around and grew up to become the trunk.
		So you had a little time loop at the beginning.
		Maybe it was very short, maybe 10 to the minus 40, 5 times 10 to the minus 44 seconds even.
		But a very tiny time loop at the beginning of the universe, naturally occurring when the universe was very young.
		And this would allow the universe to be its own mother.
		And there, the time machine exists at the very beginning of the universe, but it goes out of existence.
		And then today, again, you're seeing a more or less flat universe.
		So it's not sufficiently twisted today to exist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it could not be reached since it ceased to exist.
		It couldn't get back to it, no.
		Since it ceased to exist, there would be no way.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		We couldn't get back to it, no.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		But it could explain how the universe got here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Gott.
		Hello.
		Hello, Art.
unidentified		And Professor Gott, I just wanted to quickly say I'm Colin from Denver, Colorado.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Denver, yes, sir.
unidentified		First time I've been able to get through to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here you are.
unidentified		Okay, the question I had, I just wanted to real quick say, I love your program.
		It's just great, great topics.
		Thank you.
		And the question I had is: is there anything in physics that may prove or disprove the existence of parallel dimensions?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, the parallel universe thing, if you could build a time machine, let's say you build a time machine in the future, and that goes to the past, then the time traveler who went to the past could check it because he would, let's say, try to change events.
		And if he found out that he was frustrated in his attempts, that wouldn't necessarily prove that there wasn't multiple universes like the many worlds theory of quantum mechanics because he might not just have tried hard enough or he might not have done the right thing.
		He could never quite be sure.
		But if he went back in time and changed the past, then he would be sure that there was more than one universe because he would see the new universe that, let's say he went back in the past and prevented some assassination from occurring that he knew occurred.
		Then he'd know there was at least two universes, the universe he grew up in where that assassination did occur, and the universe that he went and he prevented the assassination from occurring.
		So a time traveler could test this theory of multiple, the many worlds theory of quantum mechanics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you are, Color.
unidentified		All right, well, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you, and take care.
		And if that proved to be the case, that there were many worlds and many parallel universes, what possibilities would open to us?
		How could we use that?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, one thing it would mean would be that there would be a world out there where World War II never happened.
		There would be all the different possibilities would be out there, regardless of whether or not anyone had built a time machine up to now.
		These would all be interlaced and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It might not matter because you could visit the world or if you will immigrate to the world of your choice where things were more to your liking.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you might go through, I mean, when this was talked about in terms of, David Deutsch talked about this in terms of, you know, a wormhole, you might find a wormhole that would go through, and instead of landing on Alpha Centauri, you might land on Alpha Centauri in an alternate universe where the universe is.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Gott.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello.
		Hi, my name is Nancy, and I'm from Honolulu, Hawaii.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or 20 guys to every girl, Nancy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, go ahead.
unidentified		Well, first of all, I'd like to tell you how much I'm glad to see you back.
		And I have two questions.
		One is, you had a man on your show one time that said that he had built a tar machine and he had sent one to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, yes, indeed.
unidentified		Have you ever used it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not.
		We nearly sent one of our company's lawyers away.
		We came within about two seconds of it.
		My wife was about to plug him in, but we never did that.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I later regretted that, by the way.
unidentified		This question to your guest is, I would like to know, I feel that we create our own reality, and most of us have the very same reality as our parents, you know, in the religion.
unidentified		And I had a brain tumor for 12 years, and I went to the Buddhist, and they explained to me that you were reincarnated many lifetimes, and you choose your parents, and you choose your lessons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And so that means that the people on the planet that you think have done all this terrible stuff to you, actually, when they're in spirit on the other side, they're the ones that love you the most.
unidentified		And so I wanted to ask him if he felt that the way we could get to the next level, instead of bombing everybody, if we would forgive them and send them love, if that would help us get to the next level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it would probably cause our extinction if you're referring to the current situation.
		That would be my take on it.
		And I don't think it's exactly a physics question.
		So we'll pass that one up.
		Bomb them with love.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Professor God.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		Hi, Professor.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		Oh, I'm sorry.
unidentified		I'm in Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seattle, okay.
unidentified		Yes.
		Wasn't it Einstein who said that if you travel faster than the speed of light that at varying degrees that you could travel, that you could actually time travel and not age?
		And what about, has anybody ever thought about the reverse effect of going against the speed of light at the same speed?
		Wouldn't that be able to get you back in time, in essence?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, the thing is that if you, let's say you're trying to go from here to Alpha Centauri and it's four light years away, if you could beat a light beam there, then let's say you got there faster than four years, then in special relativity, there's some observer traveling in a rocket ship at a certain speed that would see your departure and your arrival as simultaneous events.
		And so this is why if you could beat a light beam, you know, that way you could get from planet, according to the rocket observer, you could get from planet A to planet at noon to planet B at noon on the same day.
		And this is what's happening in my cosmic string solution.
		And then you take one string, you go behind one string, and you get from noon to noon, from planet A to planet B, you take the other string, you go back the other way, and you get from planet B back to planet A at noon.
		So then you can shake hands with yourself on planet A at noon when you left.
		So it's true that if beating a light beam allows you to make trips to the past, going against, whether you're going against or with the light beam is not so important.
		It's just whether you can exceed that speed.
		Now, you can't beat the light beam in a fair race because it's going faster than you are.
		But by a shortcut, if you sneak around and take a shortcut through a wormhole or around the other side of a cosmic string, then you can.
		And so this is a mechanism that we're using to make these twisted solutions where time travel to the past is possible.
unidentified		Are they sure though that wormholes would work every time?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, wormholes can be propped.
		The problem with making the wormhole is that you have to find we think that on very small scales of like 10 to the minus 33 centimeters, space-time is frothy.
		And so you would hope to find a wormhole that connected, a microscopic one that connected two different places.
		And then you have to enlarge this and then keep it propped open.
		And it would require a negative energy density stuff to keep it propped open.
		But we've observed that in the laboratory that if you take two parallel plates of metal and put them very close together to each other, the vacuum, the empty space between them acquires a negative energy density.
		So this has been observed in the lab.
		And so this is what Thorne and his associates are using to pop open the wormhole.
		There's quantum effects that have to be considered.
		You have to consider whether in this wormhole geometry you have a self-consistent quantum state that doesn't blow up.
		And Li Jing Li and I found one of these for this early universe solution.
		But we it's one of the things that's under investigation as to whether or not you can find a quantum state that doesn't cause the wormhole time machine to fail.
		But it's allowed in general relativity, and we have found some examples where the quantum state doesn't blow up, and so there may be that possibility seems to be open.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does that help you?
unidentified		A little bit, but can I say one more thing?
		You know, you guys were talking about the movie Somewhere in Time.
		Yes.
		Can thought travel faster than the speed of light?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You'll say, well, thought doesn't travel at all, right, Professor?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is your view.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I would say, again, speaking as a physicist, I would say that your thought processes and things have go at speeds slower than the speed of light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you imagine that thought travels outside the physical brain at all?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even at speeds slower than light?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		No, I mean, I'm talking about the nerve impulse.
unidentified		Oh, I'm just speaking here in terms of as a physicist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, you know what she was talking about, though.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you just don't buy into that one at all, do you, as a physicist?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, it's a question beyond physics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think physics will ever have to tackle for it the impossible?
		In other words, to stumble in repeatable, a scientifically verifiable proof of the paranormal, for example, thought traveling from point A to point B?
		I mean, how would a physicist even deal with that if it could be scientifically proven?
		Then what?
		Then everything goes turned upside down.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, I think one of the people that I knew that was interested in this question was Brian Josephson, who invented the Josephson junction, which is important in integrated circuits and so forth.
		I mean, it was his thought, which was certainly somewhat unconventional, that some of these unusual effects, as it were, of consciousness in particular had to do with peculiar quantum mechanical effects, such as, you know, we see superconductivity, and that's where a current passes around through a wire with apparently no resistance.
		And superfluidity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're working that one up to room temperature now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's getting close.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But even going back to what I said earlier, Professor, even there at your University of Princeton, they're doing work with random number generators.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you looked into that, what they're doing?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		I have not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The effect of the human mind, oh, the effect of the human mind or many minds on random number generators.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		That's not my field.
		But I would say that scientists are certainly, you might say, a skeptical lot, but they can be persuaded by the right kind of experimental evidence.
		The example that comes to mind, which was one that was told by Phil Morrison, was that in the past, scientists doubted whether meteors actually hit the ground.
		In other words, everyone knew that a meteor was going in the sky, you know, something burning up in the Earth's atmosphere.
		But farmers would come in and say, look, I found this rock on my farm, and this is a meteor that came and hit my farm.
		And scientists doubted this.
		Finally, enough meteors.
		Finally, there was a case where Mr. B.L., who was a famous chemist, was invited to examine a meteor strike.
		And there was a meteor that broke apart in the Earth's atmosphere, and it made into hundreds of pieces.
		And so people saw from this village hundreds of meteors coming down.
		And then hundreds of meteors landed in this village.
		They went through the roofs of houses.
		They landed on people's hearts and so forth.
		He went out and investigated it.
		And then after that, people said, yep, that's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, so in other words, Professor, a lot of physicists and hard scientists have to be literally hit in the head with a meteor before they buy it.
		Professor, hold on, we'll be right back.
		I'm Marpell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM, and we're talking about time and time travel, and really the nature of everything.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast AM, and we're talking about time travel, and really the nature of everything.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Call our bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
		The Boyle Card line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to call out on the Toll Free International Line, call your ATT operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coaster Coast AM with our bell from the Kingdom of Knives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Certainly is.
		Good morning, Professor Gott.
		J. Richard Gott is my guest.
		His book is Time Travel in Einstein's Universe.
		Or in Einstein's Universe.
		And if you'd like to get a hold of that book, and I can imagine you wouldn't do a lot more reading, it's available by going to my website, tonight's guest info, and it'll take you right over to Amazon.com where you can snatch up a copy for yourself.
		Professor will be right back.
unidentified		Groan Groan
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back now to Professor Gott.
		Behind me, Professor, I've got a Pentium IV, 1.7 gigahertz computer, and things are changing rapidly.
		But suppose we were to get to the point, Professor, where we suddenly had a Pentium 7000, you know, a quantum computer.
unidentified		If we had a quantum computer, what could we do with that?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the people have talked about is having a quantum computer, which takes advantage of the fact that particles have a wave-like nature.
		And so when you do some calculation or you send an electron through a couple of slits and hit a wall, there's just a wave function that tells you the probability of the electron landing at different places.
		And so one of the things that people have talked about is arranging a quantum computer so that it would do a calculation.
		You were taking advantage, as it were, in the many worlds theory of quantum mechanics of the fact that in the many different worlds, the computer would be working on many different aspects of the problem.
		And then at the end, you would, all in parallel, and then they would interact with each other, and you'd put together the answer at the end, and it would give you your answer at the end.
		And again, if you were on the conservative side, you'd say, well, the peculiar laws of quantum mechanics allowed you to do this calculation and get the benefit of many different calculations being done, and you got your answer at the end.
		So there are people thinking about these things, of using this aspect of quantum mechanics to increase the computational ability of computers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if you actually had a quantum computer and it was doing these calculations simultaneously in parallel universes, essentially, then you actually might also have just arrived at time travel, mightn't you?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, all these would be like going forward in time.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		So the idea was to use you might pluck the answer from how to build one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Right?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		That might be helpful, yeah.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time calling a line, you're on the air with Professor Gott.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		I got a question for Professor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm out of Madison, Wisconsin.
		All right, go.
		Yeah, he claims that if you travel fast enough, like, through Einstein's theory, that one can go back in time.
		However, I got a question for him.
		The fastest one could possibly travel between point A and B would be zero time, thus being in two places at one time.
		So you're essentially traveling from point A to point B in zero time.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Now, how is that going back in time?
		Time is relevant.
		Space and time are one.
		And time passes everywhere in space simultaneously.
		So if you have, like, an alien on planet B and you're on planet A, time passes simultaneously throughout the universe.
		So the time there is the same as here.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		What I'm talking about is the fact that if we have a planet A and a planet B and they're separated by four light years or something like this, I can travel, if I go around the cosmic string, so I'm taking a shortcut, so I'm getting there in less than four years according to my time.
		There's some observer that's moving in a rocket ship at a speed less than the speed of light.
		And that observer, Einstein, showed that simultaneity of distant events depends on observers.
		Observers will disagree over whether two distant events, whether one of them happened before or after the other one.
		So you can find an observer who will say that I departed from planet A at noon on January 1st, and I arrived on planet B at noon on January 1st.
		And then if I can do that trick once by taking a shortcut around one cosmic string, I can have a cosmic string moving in the opposite direction where I could make a point.
unidentified		Isn't the sort of distance between two points a straight line?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		It is in Euclidean geometry.
unidentified		If space-time is flat, space-time is curved is a finite, definite distance, that being a straight line.
		Now, the distance between two objects in space can be however great a distance one can imagine.
		And this theory, as far as going back in time, is just ridiculous because time is a measurement.
		And if the measurement's not taken, time in itself does not exist.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, these solutions are curved.
		And so, again, it's like on the surface of the Earth, if you imagine going around the equator of the Earth, and the equator was time, and the north and south direction was space.
		If you go around the equator, you would be going west all the time, and that would be like toward the future.
		And so a person would look at you, and you would look at yourself, and you'd say, I'm going toward the future.
		But you'd continue on west around west, west, west, around the Earth.
		You'd come back to the same place you were.
		So you would visit the same event twice.
		So you would arrive back and shake hands with yourself and say, have a nice journey starting off.
		So people differ in their measuring sticks and in their clocks.
		This could only occur if space and time were curved.
		And if you're used to thinking of space and time as being flat, like a sheet of paper, this is like someone saying, well, there's no way you could ever travel west, steadily west, and ever return to where you started because you'd always end up further west.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Professor, just a second or two before the Big Bang, was there time?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, the standard answer to that question is time was created at the Big Bang along with space.
		And so there was no time and was no space.
		This is like saying there's no point south of the South Pole, so to speak.
		We were also saying that Li Jing Li and I were saying that there could be a small time loop at the very beginning so that there was no, the universe had a finite beginning, but no actual earliest event that you could point to because there was a little circular loop of time right at the beginning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think I finally followed that now.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the only explanation I've ever heard that makes any sense.
		Most people just get stuck.
		Most scientists have.
		Yeah, that's very interesting.
		All right.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Professor Gott.
		Hello.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, glad you're back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Yes.
		I'm calling from Midland, Texas.
		I'm Jeff listening to 550 KCRS.
		Okay.
		A question for your guest.
		I do some reading about physics and especially quantum physics.
		And like some of the things that he's talking about tonight, I understand some of it.
		And some of it I just can't get my brain around it.
		Like what?
		Things about internet expansion or, in other words, what happens then?
		What happens next?
		Ideas about starting at a small point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And it expands to all this.
unidentified		And I was just wondering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then do you even do one better?
		Then all this starts going faster.
		That's the part I haven't grasped yet.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
unidentified		And it's a little bit troubling because I think I do have also a human side, a religious side that looks at things with one view.
unidentified		and i had some of these concepts but how All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're breaking up on it, but you've got a cell phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, you saw Jodi Foster's movie, right?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you had been in her seat, and I just love asking people like you, and I know what your answer is going to be, you're going to really be stuck.
		If you were sitting in her seat and you were facing that panel, and there was the question, the ultimate question they asked, and that is considering that you might be on your way to meet an alien race for the first time, Earth's representative, you know, our ambassador representing all the people on Earth, and prior to your trip, you had to declare that you believed in God to take your seat on the machine, in the machine, and make your trip.
		How would you answer that one?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, I believe in God.
		I think that that's the humble position to take.
		I'm a Presbyterian.
		So I think that I liked Einstein's comment.
		He said he thought God was subtle but not malicious.
		I think that there's I certainly approach the universe with a sense of awe and wonder.
		And there are scientists that believe in God.
		There are scientists that don't.
		And it's a matter of faith.
		And I think that how people do their physics, they're just doing physics.
		Certainly I have no theological axis to grind.
		Li Jing Li and I were just, and we never discussed theology.
		We were just trying to find if an interesting property of relativity might be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me try this one then.
unidentified		Do you believe in miracles?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		I don't think that God will violate the laws of physics.
unidentified		Okay.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		I think it's...
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think that's like if you're playing a game of solitaire, it's not fun to cheat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thanks for taking the hard ones anyway.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		But here, I'm sort of taking off my sort of scientist hat and just talking like a regular person has to confront these issues like anyone does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No problem.
		East of the Rockies, you're on here with Professor Gott.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm calling from Mississauga, Ontario.
		Okay.
		My, well, actually, a couple of comments.
		The one theory about traveling back in time, and say if I was to take a step back in time for even an hour or two and maybe stop someone from crossing a street, the impact of that action is like I'm creating an entire new universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Possibly.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that certainly would be true in the many worlds theory of quantum mechanics, yes.
unidentified		Because that would be so incredible, because that's all that mass, all that energy, just recreated, and it's on its separate course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe that is the manner of creation.
unidentified		If we were to go that route, then we may never really know until we actually create a time machine in this timeline that we have created a time machine and have changed the past.
unidentified		There could be multiple, multiple universes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There sure could, and they could be exploding all around us, and we wouldn't know, would we, Professor?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes, in that picture, it's like a railway switching yard where you have many parallel tracks, and they're all interlaced.
		And you're like riding down the train.
		You see one track, and you see the stations go by.
		Oh, there's World War II.
unidentified		That's sure.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there's people landing on the moon.
		And you just see one track.
		But there are many parallel tracks.
		There may be a track there where World War II didn't happen.
		In this picture, anytime anyone makes an irreversible decision or any irreversible thing happens, an atom changes from one energy level to another, you have a branching off of another universe.
		But these are always branching off and converging and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, Professor, time travel could be happening and these explosions of universes could be actually going on around us and we'd never know the difference, would we?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because we're traveling down whatever track we're on.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		We're seeing one track.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		There could be another track over there where people discovered a time machine in 1936 and used it to go back around.
unidentified		So, yes.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Time travel could be used to test this area, as I pointed out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you are.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Dott.
		Hi.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Professor.
unidentified		Hello, how are you guys doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine, sir.
unidentified		Okay, I got a couple of very quick questions.
		I'll try to make it very brief.
		I was just wondering, okay, I myself personally, I do believe time travel, in fact, is going to be possible in a way that I think is possible.
		What do you think the intent of even searching out for it to be possible?
		What do you think that is?
		I mean, is it just to say that you could get the girl your dreams that you missed a chance to in high school?
		Or would you say it's to say just that you can?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that would depend on the traveler, right?
		In other words, you might be after the girl.
		The professor might be after something entirely different.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
		Well, I mean, the actual drive to actually learn how to time travel.
		Like, science, its goal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would science's goal?
unidentified		Oh, that's a question.
unidentified		Would it actually rely on the individual or would it actually rely on the individual?
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		We're trying to press the...
		In other words, understand how the universe works.
		An example I would give of this is that Richard Feynman mentioned that learning the laws of physics was like watching chess games and trying to figure out the rules.
unidentified		I'm a chess player.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And you'd say, well, oh, I've noticed that these bishops, they seem to always stay on the same color.
		And then you'd say, oh, that's the law of chess.
		And you'd write this down.
		Then you'd say, oh, I get it.
		They move along a diagonal, and then they must move on the same color.
		And now you've discovered, like, general relativity after Newton.
		That's a great idea.
		But you watch chess games, and you say, well, one of the things that never happens is pieces never change their identity.
		And you write that down as the law of physics.
		But then you watch an extreme chess game where the pawn goes to the end and it gets promoted and turns into queen.
		And you never saw a chess game that extreme before.
		So you say, wait a minute, that violates the law of physics.
		But no, that's really the laws of chess.
		You do change to a queen.
		So we're interested in exploring the laws of physics in extreme situations in order to see what possibilities they have.
		And so time travel is one of the possibilities that comes up in curved space-time.
		And we're interested to see if this provides clues as to how the universe works or, as I said, even how it began.
		This might be a trick that the universe has used at the beginning.
unidentified		Well, in that case, that pretty much answers it.
		The only thing I'll just leave it with a comment then is that knowing that man himself has a desire quite often, I find through what I've at least observed of history to want to break the laws, there's a love for that.
		I'll say that nonetheless it'll be very interesting if we actually can travel through time.
		And man, what a trip.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What a trip is right.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Take care of yourself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your book.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		We're interested in kind of getting around the laws of physics, like using a shortcut to beat a light beam or warping space like in the warp drive in Star Trek to make a shortcut to the stars.
		And we're interested in seeing what the laws of physics are capable of.
		People said that you couldn't have a heavier-than-air plane that would fly.
		Leonardo da Vinci knew that birds flew.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was your brethren now that said that.
		What?
		That was your brethren that said that in the past.
		Scientists.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Scientists, yeah.
		Well, scientists are going to be wrong in the past.
		But Leonardo da Vinci was smart enough to know that if birds could fly, then in principle, so could we.
		The laws of physics did not stop a bird from flying, so you can imagine a flying machine.
		So, like I said, we see particles that are going fast enough to allow time travel to the future, right, today.
		Professor.
		And so we could do it too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're out of time.
		Okay.
		Out of time.
		All right.
		So Time Travel in Einstein's Universe is your book, and it's available generally around everywhere, right?
		At Amazon.com and so forth.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Professor, we've got to go.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		We'll have you back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We only have just begun.
j richard gott ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for having me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, my friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we are out of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		RCH is here tomorrow night.

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