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Aug. 29, 2001 - Art Bell

02:06:15

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Colm A. Kelleher - NIDS Research Projects

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	I'm with Arthel on the premier radio networks.
	If you want to see what everybody's talking about, join us at artbell.com.
	That's my website, artbell.com.
	When you get there, click on program tonight's guest.
	The name Richard Hoagland, you'll see.
	And then it says topic, crop glyph images.
	Click on those.
	Go down to, I don't know, image number two first, because that'll blow your mind.
	That's the new glyph with the apparent answer from the Arecibo message in 74, right in front of that telescope, the physical picture of it.
	Then, go down to image number three, and you'll see a detailed presentation of the Arecibo message and the Chilbolton glyph.
	Take a look at that.
	And then, if that's not enough for you, Go down to image number seven and you will see the complexity on the ground that would have been required in the middle of the night to produce something as complicated as what's in that field.
	I say impossible.
	Well, nothing's impossible, but very nearly impossible.
	I think that's the real McCoy.
	That's what everybody's talking about.
	In a moment coming up, We've got Colm Culloher from NIDS.
	He is the Deputy Administrator of the National Institute of Discovery Science.
	He runs day-to-day operations.
	He's their researcher.
	He's going to obviously have something to say about this and related topics, animal mutilations, what went on in New Jersey.
	There's just a lot going on out there right now, and I imagine they're having a big debate.
	We'll hear all about it.
	from across the hill in Las Vegas from NIDS which is now actually is honored to be the first and only reporting number in the official FAA manual for UFO related stuff you know for pilots and FAA people to report actually listed in the FAA manual.
	What an honor, huh?
	NIDS has come a long way and with it Colm Culloher the Deputy Administrator and researcher for NIDS.
	Welcome back to the program, Colm.
	Great to be here again, Art.
	Well, gosh, Colm, it's kind of an interesting time.
	Yeah, it seems like a lot is happening.
	A lot is happening, and I guess we could begin with this incredible Chilbolton glyph.
	That's what we're calling it.
	It doesn't really seem like a traditional crop circle to us, so we're calling it a glyph.
	But it's in crops, so I don't know.
	I don't know.
	What's your take?
	What do you think?
	When did you hear about it?
	What's going on?
	Well, we heard about it about a week ago, or less than a week ago, and since then it's provoked probably the most intense discussion on our email list that I've seen in a long time.
	In other words, our science advisory board with backgrounds in physics And a lot of consultants have chimed in on this topic.
	And the main point of argument is, how could it be done?
	And most of the arguments have focused on whether it could be done successfully from the air by a government aircraft.
	Well, that would indicate to me that the discussion participants, then for the most part must discount the
	possibility that it was done on the ground by some students or something.
	Yeah, I think there's been very little discussion about whether or not several people were using
	planks at night, that kind of thing, because the level of sophistication and especially
	the face which first appeared followed by the chill Bolton glyph, both of those are
	not indicative of being done on the ground.
	To us, that's in contrast to a lot of the other formations that have appeared this summer.
	I think the formations in England for the last couple of years have been Not as spectacular as they were a few years ago, but these latest ones are the exception.
	Turn you right on your ear.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And I think the Mill Hill one with the 409 separate circles, which I know you've discussed previously on your program.
	Oh, yes.
	To us, that was a departure because of the technical perfection.
	You want to hear something interesting that somebody wrote to me about that?
	And this is just speculation about the 409 circles.
	It says, if I'm right about the 409 circles being a geometric representation of the 409 elements that structure the universe, I predict that when they investigate, they will find a trace amount of each of those elements in each circle.
	Now, that I haven't heard before.
	I wasn't even aware that 409 elements made up the universe.
	The head of SEPRA, which is a French organization dedicated to the study of UFOs and other things,
	it was funded originally by the French government and it is still in existence but on a much
	slower level than it used to be.
	The head of SEPRA is Jean-Jacques Velasco.
	Several years ago, he wrote a very interesting paper on the electromagnetic requirements of creating crop circles or crop formations or glyphs from an aircraft.
	In other words, he put in some of the physics and some of the electromagnetic requirements.
	There's been a lot of discussion on our list from people who are very sympathetic to the idea that This may be some form of weapon or some form of instrumentation that's been tested and calibrated and perfected over several years.
	The question of why it would be used for so long, obviously, is an interesting one.
	You know, I suppose anything is possible, and that's certainly possible.
	I've speculated myself about satellites, but I refuse to believe that it was done on the ground.
	I absolutely refuse to believe Yeah, we don't think it was done on the ground either.
	The actual content of the message that Richard Hogan was talking about, I found some of his comments pretty interesting.
	Particularly on the silicon.
	The fact that silicon is an integral member, or part of bone formation, which it is, but it's nowhere near as important as the other elements.
	If you look at the total biochemistry of the human body, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, nitrogen and phosphorus are really the main players in formation.
	Here on Earth.
	And what?
	Here on Earth.
	That's right, here on Earth.
	Right through the animal and plant kingdoms.
	He is correct on the silicone angle.
	He also put out an interesting thing on the triple helical DNA, which has been used routinely in the last several years for interrupting gene transcription.
	In other words, you can actually create triple helical DNA in the lab, and it is used for I have no idea.
	Yeah, so that is correct, but I'm actually looking at the glyph or the comparison that Paul Vigay had created on your website, and I can't actually see the triple helical DNA, but I do know that triple helix DNA is routinely used.
	That's fascinating.
	The other aspect about the short-lived nucleides that he had mentioned, I was not aware that they had been found in crop formations.
	As you probably know, Robert Bigelow was instrumental in creating Project Argus, which was a, I think it was one of the first major instrumented studies of crop formations in southern England, and it was in the early 90s.
	But one of the instruments that they had with them was specifically to look at the short-lived nuclides, which had been reported.
	And the results of Project Argus were negative.
	In other words, there were no nuclides found in that study in the formations that they looked at in the early 90s.
	Now, obviously, that's not to say that all formations didn't have them, but they specifically looked for them, they didn't find them.
	Unambiguously intended to be an answer to the Arecibo signal.
	You would agree with that, sir?
	Definitely.
	Alright, so if government, if some government did this from a plane with some new experimental technology, why would they do this?
	I mean, why would they do this?
	Why would they provide an answer to what was sent from Arecibo?
	Why would a government do that?
	I can see they might make circles, They might do other things, but why would they do this?
	That doesn't make sense.
	Well, I think you could certainly look at it from the point of view of humor.
	Really?
	Particularly the humanoid figure stuck in there with the large head, which is very classical Hollywood.
	You could also point out that Silicon has been For decades, it's been discussed in the science fiction literature as the alternative to carbon-based life.
	When I was in the Air Force, there wasn't a lot of humor there.
	I mean, really.
	Well, you may be right, but I was focusing mostly on the face as a possible, you know, having been done from the air.
	Because the face is one of those computerized versions of an image.
	That would have to be done with a computer.
	In other words, manually doing it and hoping that you got all of the eyes correctly would just not work.
	Nigh on to impossible.
	Yeah, the structure of that particular formation is about 220 separate honeycombs.
	In each honeycomb, the crop is laid down in varying amounts.
	That's right.
	And even if you made six mistakes in, say, six to seven honeycombs around the nose area, you would totally destroy the entire image.
	So, out of 220 honeycombs, there are no mistakes that can be seen that are obvious.
	So, that seems to suggest the machine... Gosh, Colm.
	I agree with you.
	It would have to suggest a machine of some sort.
	This kind of accuracy just could not be achieved in the dark.
	We know they were done overnight by I don't care who's on the ground.
	That's all there is to it.
	And so this is a really, really big story.
	And I guess, obviously, the people you associate with are at least treating it that way as well, because even if it means our government did it from the air, That's a big, big story.
	It is.
	It is a big story.
	Now, the other part of the discussion that has been raging within NIDS is the naysayers who are, you know, they're technically adept physicists as well and engineering backgrounds, and they're saying that it couldn't be done.
	So, you know, there's a group saying, yes, it can be done.
	And then there's another equally expert group saying, no, it can't be done.
	So it's certainly not a I suppose it could be somebody's sense of humor, but to design this Joe Bolton glyph would have required pretty serious study and thought
	I mean, you'd really have to kind of think it out to come up with this before you ever got to the, let's trump it out in the field, or drop it, or irradiate it from a playing part.
	Yes, I saw an alternative explanation for the DNA, and that is that usually DNA has about nine nucleotides per spiral in a double helix.
	One of the interpretations I saw was six nucleotides per spiral, which means the actual bonding in the DNA, in the return glyph, if you want to call it like that, is very, very different from the normal nine turns per spiral in normal DNA as we know it.
	And that actually implies a totally different structure of the backbone of the DNA in the return glyph.
	So it's not actually a triple helical DNA, it's just an entirely different bonding structure.
	Is NIDS getting calls asking what NIDS thinks about this?
	Yes, we've had a few, mostly emails, but yeah, we've had quite a few actually.
	And how do you generally respond to those?
	We generally respond by saying that we have Not actually looked at the formation, but some of our consultants think that it's been done from the air.
	And, you know, that can be anywhere from a couple thousand feet to, you know, a hundred thousand feet.
	Or, as you mentioned, satellite.
	I'm not aware of the kinds of technology that would be used from satellites, but an aircraft with the appropriate camouflage at daytime or nighttime, and we know, I think, Pretty well.
	We know that that sort of aircraft is routinely deployed.
	That is very difficult to see either daytime or nighttime.
	So you would not have to be at a very high altitude in order to accomplish this.
	If you were using something like a microwave laser to carry it out, the altitude may not be too high.
	Uh, and so would a laser, could a laser do that?
	Well, that's been the, that's been the fundamental argument on our list.
	You know, there's, there's people who worked in laser research who have said, no way.
	And then there's other people who said yes.
	So, um, it's right now the jury is out, but I think the general agreement so far that I've seen is that definitely this, these, These latest ones have definitely been done from the air.
	From the air?
	Yes.
	By us or by somebody?
	Yes.
	But the idea of a bunch of students kind of randomly putting this Arecibo message together and doing it on the ground seems to me to be pretty ludicrous.
	Ludicrous.
	as you as you mentioned it required a lot of thought and a lot of planning and
	also at fairly good level of biochemistry
	probably graduate level biochemistry not original actor by the way column that
	uh...
	uh... no human uh... footprints uh... or signs of human activity
	were found around either one of these uh... nor the uh...
	four hundred nine circles for that matter and that's always looked at very
	carefully at the very beginning before people are moving around well that
	that's one of the uh...
	that the really interesting issues because according to the information
	that we heard that it was raining on the night that the uh...
	the four hundred nine circles appeared that is correct now i went over to uh...
	southern england to investigate the crop circle uh... crop formation situation a few years ago
	ago.
	And after a rainy night, if you're tromping around in those fields, you very, very quickly get about six inches of very thick, dense mud on the bottom of your boots.
	I mean, it's impossible to avoid that.
	And so it slows you down, number one.
	But secondly, it makes you leave tracks.
	It would be very, very difficult to avoid leaving tracks like that on the ground, especially during rain.
	So the NIDS position on all of this right now is Very interesting, or fascinated?
	Oh yeah, the net position is fascination.
	We have not had any people on the ground over in Southern England for the last couple of years, but before that we usually had one person on the ground during every summer.
	Well, when they sent you over there, and you walked in these, right?
	Not these, but ones like them.
	What was it like?
	I mean, what were your impressions on the ground?
	Well, the first formation that I went into was the famous Stonehenge formation, right across the A303 road motorway from Stonehenge.
	And that was in 1996, July 1996.
	motorway from Stonehenge and that was in 1996, July 1996, it was a formation of about 150
	circles, reminiscent actually of the Mill Hill formation this year.
	Alright, I'll call him.
	That's a good place to hang people up.
	I love cliffhangers.
	We'll find out.
	I mean, how many of us have been on the ground in a crop circle?
	He has.
	Falling in love was the last thing I had on my mind.
	Holding you with the warmth that I thought I could never find.
	I'm very gratified that NIDS is having a big discussion about this and believes it can't be done from the ground because I'm just a lay person.
	And I looked at this and I said, there's no way in hell this is a serious story, one way or the other.
	This glyph in front of this telescope at Chilbolton, this answer from Arecibo's message of 1974, this is a big story, folks, and it is.
	The following is entitled, Microsoft Technician at Boot Camp.
	One of Microsoft's finest techs was drafted and sent to boot camp.
	At the rifle range, he was given some instruction, a rifle, and bullets.
	He fired several shots at the target.
	Report came back from the target area that all attempts had completely missed the target.
	The Microsoft tech looked at his rifle.
	Then at the target again.
	Looked at the rifle again, then at the target again.
	Put his finger over the end of the rifle barrel and squeezed the trigger with his other hand.
	The end of his finger went off, whereupon he yelled toward the target area, It's leaving here just fine!
	The trouble must be at your end!
	Stanley Nidds has a 24-hour hotline for anything that happens to be going on out there.
	They have the resources, the money, the ability, the energy to go out and, if necessary, put an investigator in the field to look at whatever you've got going.
	Now, not every call uh... of course uh... the results in a two-thirds of the
	investigators from sort being dispatched in fact i would imagine a small
	percentage but they do have that ability and they do in fact do it
	and there is in fact a hotline number and uh... what is that uh... please call
	it's a very good seven oh two right seven nine eight
	one seven zero zero and you can also uh... log onto our website at uh... w w w
	dot net side and i'd be f c i dot o r g and you can fill out a a
	form electronically if you don't want to talk on the telephone
	but tonight if you do talk if you do call up tonight
	We will take your number quickly, because of the number of calls, and then we'll get back to you tomorrow.
	All right, so in other words, if you've got something you want to say, folks, that number is available right now.
	Normally not at night, but tonight it is.
	At area code 702-798-1700.
	And I'm going to try and do something, and I've got a little bit of echo coming on here, so let me try this again.
	That's 702-798-1700.
	Okay, Colum, if you have any more on these incredible Things in England, fine.
	If not, we'll move on to whatever else you have.
	Well, I was just going to mention that in 1996, in the summer of 1996, I was with a group of people who were one of the first into the so-called Julius Act, which was a formation that appeared very quickly across the road, across the highway from Stonehenge.
	The interesting thing about entering this formation was, number one, we were completely befuddled as to what the whole formation looked like.
	As far as you could see, all you could see were different sized circles.
	We kept on walking.
	We just had no idea what it looked like.
	And then a day later, when somebody had taken an aerial shot of it, we realized what exactly it looked like.
	But to us on the ground, it was Almost impossible to see what the overall shape was.
	The second thing that we noticed, I was with a group that was four of us total, and all four of us experienced dizziness and disorientation after going in there.
	This was very, very fresh.
	This formation apparently had just appeared less than 24 hours, and we were one of the first people in.
	Two of the people with us had to leave the formation because they felt so nauseous.
	Myself and this other guy were in there to collect samples, so we had a protocol that we were following that was essentially the Leavengood Protocol, which is gathering ten sets of samples from within the formation, and then ten sets of controls at varying distances from the formation, and then shipping the plants back to him.
	We had an enormous amount of difficulty in actually Focusing and concentrating and overcoming the dizziness and disorientation to accomplish collecting those samples.
	It took us, literally, it took us hours.
	That's remarkable.
	I've heard that before, but that's remarkable.
	And then other formations that we went into, maybe in the ensuing days, there was no hint of that whatsoever.
	And it just seemed to be this particular formation It was very disorienting and all of the people that I was with felt the same.
	So one might speculate a little bit of residual energy of some sort or another left because it was so fresh?
	That was the speculation that was going around.
	We didn't have any measuring equipment with us.
	We were simply there to gather the plants and to ship them back to Dr. Leavengood.
	And what did Dr. Leavengood find?
	From my memory, and I'm really going on my memory, he did find differences in what he calls the radox ratio, which is a measurement that he uses to estimate the anion-cation ratio in these plants compared with the controls that were found outside the formation.
	In other words, there was an effect.
	Now, I think he's interpreted that as being indicative of microwave radiation.
	Uh, but from my memory, he did find those effects in those plants.
	Well, you know, I just, I don't know what to say about all this, except that, uh, obviously we've turned a corner with this thing.
	Up until now, they've been mysterious.
	They've been beautiful.
	They've been a puzzle.
	Everybody's, you know, but all of a sudden you, you've got, you turn a corner.
	I mean, you've got a face and then you've got this incredible answer to Arecibo's message.
	Unambiguously, it's turning a corner.
	Yeah, I think it's definitely a new level of sophistication, and beginning with that Mill Hill formation with the 409 circles, I think that quickly followed by the face, which in turn was quickly followed by the Arecibo glyph.
	I think, yes, we have turned a corner in terms of sophistication.
	Prior to that, I did not see anything this summer that really Raised any interest?
	Certainly there was no discussion in our group on crop formations up until the appearance of the face actually.
	And then we backtracked to talk about the Mill Hill formation too.
	Any comments on the face itself other than the technical aspects of how it might have been made?
	How does the face strike you?
	Well, I've got a printout on my wall, which I'm looking right at right now.
	I just printed it out from the Crop Circle Connector website, and to me, my interpretation is that it looks definitely human, and it looks almost like a teenager looking out through a very, very small window.
	And I know there's been lots of interpretations about neanderthal type features and this kind of thing, but as I'm looking right across the room and it's a superficial look, that's what I see.
	It's just a young boy just looking out a small window with an expression that is not particularly happy.
	The media ultimately is going to... There is a warming up that's going on right now.
	I mean, it's been on Fox, you know, it's been on CNN.
	Yeah.
	So it's beginning to move from the fringes to the mainstream.
	Do you think it'll keep going?
	Do you think the night will come that soon, you know, Tom Brokaw, whoever, is going to report on this?
	I think there's a definite change in the tone of the media reporting In the last 12 months, it's pretty obvious to me.
	Yes, I think the trend is going to continue.
	I think the numbers of print articles and the number of TV coverages of the different nations that we went into maybe in the ensuing days, there was no hint of that whatsoever.
	It just seemed to be this particular formation.
	It was very disorienting and all of the people that I was with felt the same.
	So one might speculate a little bit of residual energy of some sort or another left because it was so fresh?
	That was the speculation that was going around.
	We didn't have any measuring equipment with us.
	We were simply there to gather the plants.
	To ship them back to Dr. Leavengood.
	And what did Dr. Leavengood find?
	From my memory, and I'm really going on my memory, he did find differences in what he calls the radox ratio, which is a measurement that he uses to estimate the anion-cation ratio in these plants, compared with the controls that were found outside the formation.
	In other words, there was an effect.
	No, I think he's interpreted that as being indicative of microwave radiation.
	But from my memory, he did find those effects in those plants.
	Well, you know, I don't know what to say about all this, except that obviously we've turned a corner with this thing.
	Up until now, they've been mysterious.
	They've been beautiful, they've been a puzzle, but all of a sudden you turn a corner.
	I mean, you've got a face, and then you've got this incredible answer to Arecibo's message.
	Unambiguously, it's turning a corner.
	Yeah, I think it's definitely a new level of sophistication.
	And beginning with that Mill Hill formation with the 409 circles, I think that quickly followed by the face.
	Which in turn was quickly followed by the Arecibo glyph.
	I think, yes, we have turned a corner in terms of sophistication.
	Prior to that, I did not see anything this summer that really raised any interest.
	Certainly, there was no discussion in our group on crop formations.
	Well, I've got a printout on my wall, which I'm looking right at right now.
	to uh... to talk with the mill hill formation to any comments on on the face
	itself other than the uh... the technical aspects of how it might have
	been made uh... how does the face strike you
	well i've got a uh... i've got a printout on my wall which i'm looking
	right at right now i'd just printed out from the uh... the crop circle connector
	website and to me a
	my interpretation is that it looks definitely human and it looks like a uh...
	almost like a uh...
	uh... a teenager looking out through a uh... very very small window
	So, that's it.
	And I know there's been lots of interpretations about Neanderthal-type features and this kind of thing, but as I'm looking right across the room, and it's a superficial look, that's what I see.
	It's just a young boy just looking out a small window with an expression that is not particularly happy.
	What do you think the media ultimately is going to do?
	There is a warming up that's going on right now.
	I mean, it's been on Fox, you know, it's been on CNN.
	Yeah.
	So it's beginning to move from the fringes to the mainstream.
	Do you think it'll keep going?
	The night will come that soon, you know, Tom Brokaw, whoever is going to report on this.
	I think there's a definite change in the tone of the media reporting in the last 12 months.
	It's pretty obvious to me.
	And yes, I think the trend is going to continue.
	I think the numbers of print articles on the number of TV uh... coverages of the different ufo phenomena as well as
	uh... the crop formations
	there are there are many of column who believe that part of this could be a government program to condition
	people to the the fact of uh... alien possible alien presence or
	that there are others now
	earlier tonight i put it out on my website i'm gonna link
	to something that says disney site asks have aliens visited birth
	Now, this is for children.
	I think MSNBC and Disney, and it's for children.
	Yeah.
	And it shows a little gray with almost a smile on its face, and it's for children.
	Now... Yeah, the Disney, I saw that on MSNBC, yeah.
	Isn't that curious?
	Yeah.
	Whether it's a program, it certainly...
	It certainly seems to be a very obvious change in tone in the media.
	Where that change in tone is coming from, you know, is definitely an interesting question.
	But we have noticed it dramatically.
	Even the coverage on the animal mutilation phenomenon is covered matter-of-factly.
	There's no giggle factor.
	The UFO, the various UFO incidents that have happened in the last couple of months that have been high profile, They've made NBC News, they've made CNN, and it's all been straight reporting.
	Compare that to a few years ago where there would always be a one-liner inserted from the Anchorman after talking about something that's not mainstream.
	I think it's a very big change.
	You know, one thing that I think helped in this process was so many of these things for years, at least it seemed to me, Always happened out west, Nevada.
	Well, we've got, you know, special test sites and all kinds of secret stuff out here, and so they could always put it off to that.
	Then, it suddenly happened in the skies over New Jersey.
	Different story, right?
	Yeah, that's right.
	Maybe it's just the East Coast media kind of thing that caught on to that, but that particular case got an enormous amount of media play.
	I mean, we were We were quite amazed at the amount of media play it got.
	ABC, CNN, and it was not just one night, it just continued for several nights as the story was being updated.
	And if that had happened over Las Vegas or Tucson or Phoenix, would it have had that kind of play?
	well the phoenix ninety ninety seven uh...
	uh...
	where there's there was quite a few parallels with the new jersey
	fighting that we were we've been investigating the new jersey fighting
	uh... that that happened on on july fifteenth and
	we see quite a few parallels uh... between the phoenix
	uh... lights on on this particular that we're going to be mean actual physical parallels or
	media coverage parallels or both world parallels and the in the fact that
	there were a hundreds of people who uh... who saw the
	the v-shaped formation of light and
	they were uh...
	There was a lot of media attention, eventually, on the Phoenix Lights.
	You know, USA Today did a fairly big spread, but several months after the event.
	That's right.
	We reported on it here, and it seems to me about three or four months later, kaboom!
	All of a sudden it was like it happened last night.
	That's right.
	I remember seeing that USA Today article, it was like months late, you're right.
	But the multiple eyewitnesses, the fact that there were multiple lights in a V-shaped formation reported from a lot of witnesses in different locations around both the New Jersey Turnpike and on Staten Island, there are quite a few parallels.
	Oh, by the way, just back for a second to the weak fields of England.
	Can you imagine in your wildest dreams that if the government itself, or a government in conjunction with others, did not do this, that our government and the English government wouldn't be intensely interested scientifically, militarily, however you want to look at it, at how in the hell this did happen, And if they don't know, then they'd be out there measuring themselves and wanting to know how such formations arrived there, wouldn't you think?
	Oh, absolutely.
	I know when I was over there in 1996, there was a lot of helicopter activity and aircraft activity over the areas that had these formations.
	Really?
	And that was the year when the so-called DNA double helix was quickly followed by this Juliozet stone in Stonehenge.
	And then in August of 1996, there was this triple Juliozet in Windmill Hill, which kind of was a preamble to the Mill Hill formation of this year with the 409 circles.
	And we had a lot of activity.
	Probably helicopter activity, photographing.
	Oh.
	Now, you see, I didn't know that.
	Nobody had ever said that to me.
	Yeah, but you were in the field, and you saw it.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, there was a lot of aircraft activity, and everybody I talked to at that time had reported the same thing, and I believe even in the subsequent years, there was aircraft activity.
	Was it obviously military?
	Although I suppose if the military didn't want to be obvious, they wouldn't be.
	Well, there's a fairly big military facility in the Salisbury Plains, I think it's called, and that's not very far from the Avebury Formation, which is kind of a central point where there's a lot of formations that have appeared.
	it's in Wilshire. Has any government...
	I mean they're making statements or denials about UFOs all the time.
	Yeah.
	Have they ever made a statement about crop circles?
	Not that I'm aware of, with the exception of that paper written by Jean-Jacques Falasco, who was the head of JEPAN, which became SAPRO, which is the official government French organization that was funded to look at UFOs.
	This paper written by Velasco was looking at what it would take for a laser or some other type of beam to create these formations.
	That's the only time I've ever seen even tangential.
	Otherwise complete government silence.
	That's right.
	One of the really interesting questions is why are all of these formations being done in Europe?
	in terms of complexity compared to the kinds of formations that have been seen over here.
	There's been a few in Montana in the last year or two that we looked at, actually, but
	the complexity is orders of magnitude lower.
	Well, I hope it's not some sort of comment on expectation of IQ.
	Yeah, that's definitely an interesting possibility.
	But the kinds of formations that are being seen in Utah and Montana in the last three or four years are very reminiscent of the sort of formations that were seen in the United Kingdom in 1992 and 1991.
	At the very beginning, yes.
	It's like there's a disconnect, a time disconnect, between what's happening over here on this side of the pond as compared to Europe.
	Well, the whole thing is really odd.
	It defies explanation right now, other than, I suppose, what's being discussed on your list about the possibility of aircraft having done it.
	Yeah, and I mean, the discussion is definitely, you know, that's all it is, is discussion.
	It's definitely informed discussion, but Certainly no conclusions, and we have not... As a matter of interest, how high-level are the people engaged in this discussion that have been intrigued by this and are looking at it?
	Well, we have, on our Science Advisory Board, there's some very high-level physicists working in government labs, and one guy especially who's had a 30-year career in lasers And then we have other consultants who chime in who are very high level material science and have worked in high levels in the government.
	So yeah, there is a good background there for discussion.
	All right.
	I know that we should touch also on animal mutilations.
	I have almost been sort of side-by-side for some reason.
	I really don't know why, with crop circles, other than the fact that both are mainly unexplained.
	If anything, animal mutilations probably more so.
	I don't think there's been one person ever arrested for doing these precision animal mutilations.
	Is that correct?
	That's our information.
	We have retired police officers on our staff.
	That is one of the big enigmas with animal mutilations, that not a single person has been caught or charged in 30 years.
	And we know that from the hotspot areas that we've looked at, and that is Montana and northern New Mexico and in Utah, the numbers of mutilations, and in Colorado actually, a lot of cult activity was investigated.
	From all of the investigations by police, not a single person has been charged.
	Not one person?
	And that remains the single biggest question of why not.
	Alright Colm, we're going to break here at the top of the hour and then we will talk more about animal mutilations.
	In all of these years and all of these mutilations, by the way, Most have occurred here.
	We seem to be the favorite for that, I believe, in North America.
	Not one person has ever been caught nor charged.
	As in the fields of England in these crop circles, not one person, not one footprint, not one sign of human activity on the ground.
	To substantiate the old board and chain theory, obviously not done that way.
	Happy to hear NIDS say that.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Good morning.
	Organization of its kind, NIDS, the National Institute for Discovery Science.
	He's the Deputy Administrator, and we're talking about the things that are happening right now, and they are many, including the incredible formations in Great Britain, and now coming up, the animal mutilations right here at home.
	All of that's up for discussion.
	Stay right where you are.
	NIDS, this is a number you should write down on a piece of paper, a post-it or something, and put on your fridge.
	If anything weird happens to you, if anything strange is going on, inexplicable, literally anything, you can call NIDS.
	They've got a website as well, but I'm going to give you their hotline number, and it's manned right now, right this minute.
	If you have something you've been wanting to report, and perhaps you've been sort of hesitating, I know that feeling.
	I thought very hard before I reported my UFO sighting with my wife on the air.
	I thought really hard about that, believe me, so I understand.
	But the only way we're ever going to get to the bottom of all of this is with your help.
	NIDS is the national organization that has the manpower, the financial ability, and the expertise Top of the line expertise to investigate these things.
	The hotline number is area code 702-798-1700.
	That's 702-798-1700, and they will treat your inquiry with great... They will respect your privacy, let me put it that way.
	Once again, Colm Cullinan.
	Colm, welcome back.
	Thank you.
	Okay, let's talk a little bit about what's been going on here in North America to a great degree.
	These animal mutilations out west, Montana, that sort of area.
	What's the latest?
	Well, it's one of the unexplained features of these mutilations is that they seem to come in waves and then they decrease and then come in waves again.
	Right now, in the last five or six weeks, we know about six animals that have gone down in different parts of Montana.
	That's two in the DePuy area, which is in the northwest.
	There was one or two, and we're talking about in the last couple of months, two near Great Falls, and then we got a report, two near Great Falls, and then We got a report actually today of a case that was near Whitefish, Montana, which is famous for its crop formations of all things, but there was a mutilation just east of Whitefish about seven days ago.
	Now, we were very lucky because normally in mutilations the ranchers do not call immediately, and law enforcement Sometimes they're slow, too, but we were lucky.
	We got a call within two days of a mutilation in Dupuir, just outside Dupuir, Montana, and that was a six-year-old red angus cow that was found dead, and it had been seen alive the night before.
	Its left eye and its left eyelid were gone.
	Its tongue had been removed.
	And it's the left jaw tissue and the hide.
	In other words, the entire jaw was stripped.
	And then underneath the jaw bone, there was a greenish colored substance embedded in the flesh.
	And then there was the usual reproductive organs were removed.
	But we got a call from the deputy sheriff a few days, well, probably a couple of days after the mutilation, but it was still In that time period where we could still manage to get something.
	Veterinarian was not available, so we decided to go the unorthodox route, which is we asked the deputy to cut the head off the animal.
	What?
	Which, you know, is like a reminiscence of a Godfather movie.
	And send it to you?
	Yeah, put it in the mail and send it to us.
	Put it in the mail?
	That was the only way we could actually examine the head, because we had the tongue removed, we had the left eye gone, and then we had the greenish substance underneath the jaw.
	Yeah, I should be laughing.
	Did they UPS it or what?
	Did they what?
	Did they UPS it or what?
	They actually FedExed it.
	They FedExed it!
	And this was a six-year-old red angus, so it was a pretty Pretty heavy FedEx parcel.
	Actually, the deputy sheriff had the presence of mind to put it on dry ice.
	Actually, it was over the holiday weekend.
	Oh, great.
	For everybody's sake, good.
	Yeah, exactly.
	So he put it on dry ice and kept it in his freezer for a few days and then sent it to us.
	And we immediately, on receipt, we put it into a minus 85 degree freezer which really flash froze it and stopped the decomposition because the whole deal is to try to get biologically viable samples and decomposition reverses that whole thing.
	So we flash froze it and then we got samples of the greenish tissue under the jaw.
	We have sent them out to a lab to be looked at.
	And so far, the feedback has been very, very preliminary Is the lab saying it is biological, the green substance?
	but we haven't nailed down anything in terms of actual molecules that are in there.
	That's what we're hoping to do.
	Is the lab saying it is biological, the green substance? Is it biological?
	...viable samples and decomposition reverses that whole thing.
	So we flash froze it and then we got samples of the greenish tissue under the jaw.
	We have sent them out to a lab to be looked at.
	And so far, the feedback from the lab has been very, very preliminary that there does seem to be some difference with the green substance.
	But we haven't nailed down anything in terms of actual molecules that are in there.
	That's what we're hoping to do.
	Is the lab saying it is biological, the green substance?
	Is it biological, part of that animal in some way, or external?
	They haven't got that far.
	They just said that there are differences in extraction.
	They use a preliminary method for extracting the relevant molecules from the tissue, and the greenish This area behaves differently from the non-greenish area.
	That's the only information we have.
	So there's a second level of analysis, gas chromatography, mass spectrometry, which hopefully will yield some of the actual molecular constituents.
	You see, folks, this is why NIDS is important.
	The only way we're ever going to get to the bottom of this kind of thing is with this kind of work, and that takes money.
	It takes money.
	Don't do a lot of pro bono work in this area.
	That's correct.
	That's absolutely correct.
	There's no free lunches.
	We did a very extensive analysis on an animal from Utah a couple of years ago.
	It was in the thousands of dollar range because we actually ended up using nine separate laboratories around the country.
	For different sets of tests, everything from veterinary pathology analysis to chemical analysis, biological analysis, the kind of gas chromatography that I've just described, as well as pregnancy tests and blood tests, elemental analysis of the blood.
	So we really pulled out all the stops.
	What were the high points?
	I mean, what did you find, if anything?
	In that Utah animal?
	Well, the first thing we found was that there was a bluish gel on the eye of the animal, which we had analyzed, and we found two separate compounds in there which were indicative that the substance had been added to the animal.
	In other words, it did not come from the animal.
	Wow.
	We also showed that the animal was pregnant at or close to the time of death.
	We showed that the heart had been shredded in the animal, but the pericardium, which is the membrane surrounding the heart, was left intact.
	It sounds very interesting because the investigator who had actually been present at the necropsy of the animal said that the heart looked like it had been shot.
	Right in the heart with a bullet, but there was no entry wound and there was no exit wound and the actual pericardium was completely intact.
	What could do that, Colin?
	Well, that was a question that we never answered because it had all the hallmarks of a projectile without the entry and exit wound.
	We could speculate about various shock waves and that kind of thing.
	But we never nailed it down.
	And then we found different levels of potassium.
	Now, potassium is notoriously difficult to analyze in postmortem samples, but we did find different levels of potassium in different blood samples that we had taken from the animal.
	So, the bottom line with this animal that we had done the extensive analysis with, it was It did not die a normal death.
	Sharp instruments were used on the animal.
	We verified that using microscopy and histopathology.
	We never got a handle on the perpetrators, but we were pretty sure that the animal did not die a normal death.
	Now, this latest animal in Montana We were fortunate when the head arrived one of the first things that we did was to examine the right eye which was underneath the animal and we found that the right eye was totally intact so what we did was we stuck it in the freezer minus 85 and then when we thawed it out the first thing we did was we got a needle inserted right into the eye and we took the vitreous fluid from the eye because
	That is a very, very good snapshot of the different types of compounds in the animal and the status of the animal at death.
	In other words, it's a very accurate way of measuring the different features, different chemicals and biological substances in the animal, as opposed to the blood, for example, which runs through the liver and if there's toxic substances in there, they get degraded very quickly.
	So we were very lucky to get the vitreous fluid and that has been currently analyzed.
	The next thing we did with this animal in Montana was that we flew one of the top forensic anthropologists, pathologists in the country out to Las Vegas to spend a day going through the head inch by inch and we learned a lot from this examination because It turned out that you can actually use the maggots on the animal, believe it or not.
	It's not a very savory topic, but you can use the maggots to get a lot of information on time of death, depending on the developmental stage of maggots.
	What would that tell us?
	I mean, the rate at which maggots munched, or what?
	That's right.
	Really, there are four separate stages.
	Human pathologists use these kind of techniques all the time in establishing time of death because it's a definite point of interest in court cases.
	So these techniques can be applied to the animal mutilation scenario because usually the only information we have is from the rancher who last saw the animal alive.
	It's plus or minus 12 hours, plus or minus 24 hours.
	The forensic anthropologist and forensic entomology people that we're talking to right now are saying that we can establish time of death, plus or minus two to three hours, over a period of seven days after death.
	So that is a very accurate time of death, and it's very useful then for pinpointing the kinds of tests that are possible.
	So when did that animal die, out of curiosity?
	Well, the animal died on June 27th.
	Were they able to nail it down as they can in homicide cases to say between 2 and 4 o'clock in the morning or whatever?
	That actually is still being done.
	The second really interesting thing about the maggot issue is that maggots have this tendency to actually concentrate drugs or toxic substances.
	If we wanted to find out what was actually killing the animal, if the animal was sedated or if the animal was immobilized in some way, the maggots are the perfect thing to analyze.
	And we don't know of any other cases in the animal mutilation area where maggots are actually analyzed for the presence of toxic substances.
	So we think that might be a useful way to go and that actually is being done too.
	You know, with all of the years of research that I know that you all have done on animal mutilations, do you have the slightest idea what is going on?
	Well, that's a pretty pointed question, Art, I must say.
	What we've found out so far is, number one, we are absolutely certain that sharp instruments are used in some cases.
	Why those sharp instruments are used, we don't.
	We have had the minority of the cases that we've looked at, we have been able to get to the animal within hours or just between a day and two days after death, and they're the ones that are most biologically relevant.
	Right.
	The second piece of information is, in a small minority of cases, There is a substance or substances added to the animal which did not come from the animal.
	Thirdly, in close to all of the cases that we've looked at, there's been substantial hemorrhaging underneath the hide along the back area of the animal.
	And the fourth piece of information that we've had that is reproducible is that there is very, very low levels of copper in the liver of these animals.
	That it's independent in at least a couple of cases of the nutritional status of the animal.
	Any idea what could cause that?
	That's one of the real burners, because we've had cases where we've had vanishingly low levels of copper in the animal, but normal levels of zinc.
	Now, anything that removes copper should be able to remove zinc, because I've done that kind of work in my previous lab work, and it's very, very difficult to specifically remove copper without removing zinc?
	So that's a major question, but there are the four bits of information that we've managed
	to glean from the animal mutilation cases that we've done so far.
	That does not address the perpetrators.
	It doesn't address actually the cause of death.
	And so when you ask what have we found out, we've found those four elements out, but we
	have no idea of who's doing this.
	Not enough information to even make a guess.
	Right now, I can say that we do not have enough information to make a guess.
	Let me try this.
	In the discussion groups, the same ones that we're talking about, the crop circles, when these discussion groups take up this subject, what's the speculation?
	In the animal mutilation arena, the discussion groups get brutally direct.
	Essentially, what needs to happen is a vastly expanded series of forensic focuses.
	In other words, a lot more attention needs to be paid to the forensics rather than checking the animal for bacteriology, virology, that kind of thing.
	Toxicology needs to be really finely focused into chemical analysis.
	So the discussions that happen within our organization are mostly very, very strong advice to focus on the forensics rather than doing the kind of veterinary pathology work that's been traditional.
	Does anybody venture out on a limb and guess what might be doing this
	there have been no there's been a lot of discussion back and forth about
	possibilities of uh...
	you know that cult group
	uh...
	possible uh... government testing of all of them brought up but it's you
	quickly usually quickly shot down uh...
	the uh... the idea that uh... u f o activity has been traditionally associated with uh... with animal mutilations
	is brought up again and again and i Actually, one of the high points of the Montana set of mutilations that happened in the 1970s was we were very fortunate to get the cooperation of one of the deputy sheriffs up there in
	Yeah, around Great Falls, Montana, who had done an extensive series of investigations.
	And he found, using his police blotters, he had investigated between 60 and 70 mutilations in the mid-70s during the major mutilation wave in the west part of the United States.
	And at the same time, the locals were reporting a very intense wave of UFO activity, so there Um, 150, 160 cases of UFO activity that were superimposed right on top of the mutilation phenomenon.
	So it's almost impossible to ignore the connection.
	Exactly.
	We were able to do a good statistical analysis, which was backed up by our science advisory board.
	And that's the kind of thing that they're interested in doing.
	Nailing down the kind of statistics that are they can stand up in court.
	All right, Callum.
	Hold it right there.
	We'll be right back from the high desert.
	I'm Ardell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Alright, we're going to open the lines here in just a moment for Colm Culloher.
	If you have any questions about all of these things that are going on right now, I mean, it really is a hot time.
	There's no question about that.
	You're welcome to ask if you have something that's happened to you that is strange that you want to relate to him, that's fine too.
	So we'll get the phone lines open shortly.
	Here's Colm once again.
	Colm, very quickly, Jim in St.
	Louis, Missouri asks the following, how often are these animals pregnant?
	You see where I'm going with this, Art?
	Reproduction is important for every species, so it is an interesting question.
	You mentioned that from time to time.
	How often are they pregnant, Carl?
	The case we did in Utah, the animal was definitely pregnant, but the fetus was missing.
	When we did the examination and we nailed it down to the animal was pregnant at or close to the time of birth, or sorry, of death.
	So that's the only real case that we've looked at.
	However, in the literature, there's plenty of cases where the animals have been pregnant.
	Now, there was another case where we talked extensively with the rancher who had two separate cows who had been pregnant.
	But in each case, the fetus was missing when the animal was mutilated.
	My, my.
	Completely missing.
	Gone.
	Not just tossed aside.
	Not just tossed aside, no.
	One of the intriguing things about one of these cases was it happened on the night of a storm.
	A lot of rain, a lot of thunder and lightning.
	But in the mud next to the animal was the tiny footprint of a calf.
	There was no calf present.
	The animal was lying mutilated in mud.
	But the only track there was a single track of a fetal cough print.
	Oh, that is weird.
	The rancher was extremely spooked by that because the implication was obvious, you know, that the cough had been removed.
	All right.
	I would like to take a few calls, if we might, and see what's on everybody's mind out there, unless you have anything you absolutely want to get on first.
	No, I'd be happy to take some calls.
	Let's see what's out there.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Column Caller.
	Hello.
	Is that me?
	That's you.
	I got a question.
	The 409 crop circles, were they all the same diameter?
	You have not seen it, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	That accounts for the question.
	Yes, they were.
	They were done at the same time.
	No, the same diameter.
	Oh, the diameter, no.
	They were not the same diameter.
	Well, let's assume that the smallest one that we know of was in the range of inches and the largest in that formation was over 70 feet.
	So in other words, sir, it was kind of like an outward going spiral.
	I think there were 13 different sized Circles, I may be wrong here, but I think there was a whole range.
	There were a range, and it was even.
	In each spiral, they were the same size.
	That's right.
	The smallest was less than a foot in diameter, and we think it was in the inches diameter, and the largest was over 70 feet.
	Now, the interesting thing also in terms of timing of this is Over in the United Kingdom, because of the latitude, the hours of darkness are not that much.
	In other words, six to seven hours is the best you can hope for.
	So if that was done during a rainy night, 409 circles in six hours, which is 360 minutes, if you do the math, it means that one circle every 48 seconds would have needed to be done Yes, if you take the mathematics of it and assume that they're all the same diameter, wouldn't that give you a three-dimensional image?
	I can circle whether it's 70 feet in diameter or 6 inches, but it would have needed to be
	done without mistakes.
	All right, Carly, anything else?
	Yes, if you take the mathematics of it and assume that they're all the same diameter,
	wouldn't that give you a three dimensional image?
	If it was a three dimensional connected dot, if one circle is half the diameter of the
	other circle, then there would be a certain distance to the background.
	Actually, your question is a very interesting one.
	There have been people that have worked on the three-dimensional aspects of crop circles, and that's some pretty interesting work.
	Colm, do you know anything about that?
	Yes, I know that one of the gentlemen discussed earlier, Paul DeGay, has done some of that work using I think computer technology to translate the two-dimensional into the three-dimensional, but I don't know what the upshot of that research was.
	And I'll tell you some other interesting research.
	I had a pilot major in crop circles, and he had done this by taking crop circles and placing them on cardboard, you know, making actual reproductions of them, placing them on cardboard and Good morning, Art.
	Good morning, Colum.
	table you know like forty five rpm seventy eight rpm and spinning them and
	he got three-dimensional representations very interesting uh...
	a stop and it was several years ago and i i we never did get a follow-up to it
	awhile card liner on the local colorado good morning or good morning call this is going to recalling
	from holloway I just want to say, Art, this is another fine show you've gotten us into.
	These facts and figures you're putting forth, especially on the cattle mutilation, just in itself is so mind-boggling.
	I'm wondering this.
	Obviously, we've gotten beyond the point of questioning whether these things are Or beyond human can or not.
	Obviously, there's something going on with the crop circles and the mutilations that seems to be, well, somewhat beyond our technology.
	So, I'm wondering, has there any correlation been done to, these things are happening throughout the world, and have you done any correlation between the number and placement of crop circles along with the number and placement of the cow mutilations?
	Well, there is not much of a correlation in terms of geography between animal mutilations and crop formations.
	If you look at the numbers, the vast majority of crop formations occur in Europe, primarily in the United Kingdom, and primarily in the south of England, whereas the majority of the mutilated animals occur in the United States.
	But mutilated animals have been found everywhere from Europe to Australia to Africa.
	Alright, let me try a variation on the caller's question.
	You did find a correlation between animal mutilations and UFO sightings in North America, correct?
	Correct, in Montana.
	Yes.
	Has there been a correlation in Great Britain between crop circles and UFO sightings?
	I don't know if that study has ever been done.
	You really need the numbers, you know.
	You need numbers up in the several dozen in each category in order to be able to do it because the Montana study that we did, we're talking about a two-year period in which nearly 70 animals were mutilated and close to 150 cases of UFO activity reported.
	So it stands out in our minds as being one of the few times when Police blotters, the original police blotters could be analyzed statistically because the times and the dates of each of these events were annotated by the law enforcement officers.
	Usually the data is much more scattered and I know in the case of crop circles or crop formations in the United Kingdom, There have not been overwhelming reports of UFO activity.
	Certainly, balls of light are featured fairly prominently, but not all the time in crop formations.
	One thing I would like to ask you personally is, what is the most inexplicable investigation you've ever done in the realm of crop circles and or the Something you've personally seen that just boggles your
	mind?
	Well, that will generate a story.
	All right, Colin.
	Well, taking the mutilation, one of the fastest rapid reactions that we've ever done was a
	case of a newborn calf that was mutilated on a property in Utah.
	And the rancher had just tagged the animal, an 84-pound calf, that it was newly born the night before.
	It was in the middle of a very large field.
	This was on the ranch?
	Yes, on a property that we had purchased up there in Utah, and had walked 300 yards to proceed to tag other animals there.
	In that time interval, which was about 45 minutes, the newborn calf had been mutilated.
	In other words, most of its body tissue was gone when the rancher and his wife came back 45 minutes later.
	Now, this happened in broad daylight.
	It happened with no cover.
	In other words, the nearest fence line was about 100 meters away.
	It happened with two potential eyewitnesses within 300 yards of the animal.
	Now, Rancher called us at 11 o'clock in the morning immediately after finding the animal.
	We were on a plane and we had three people, including me, there within six hours.
	So we were standing over that animal, that dead animal, within six hours of death.
	And that was the fastest rapid reaction.
	In other words, we could get to the animal very quickly.
	And the interesting thing, or the most inexplicable thing pertaining to your question about this was that at first superficial sight, this looked like a real predator attack.
	However, there was not a drop of blood on the grass.
	The animal was laid out perfectly, spread-eagled with all four legs.
	It was almost like a ritual laying out of the animal.
	It had no inside internal organs whatsoever.
	All of the flesh had been cleaned from the ribs.
	Its left ear had been totally removed at the skull with what we did subsequent pathology analysis and microscopic analysis.
	In several different laboratories who all confirmed that a sharp instrument had been used to remove that ear.
	Furthermore, one of the femurs of the animal had been physically torn out and laid on the grass about 10 feet away from the animal.
	Wow.
	That was subsequently analyzed by one of the top forensic people in this country who determined that two separate sharp instruments were used on the animal.
	One was a machete type instrument, heavy machete.
	The other was a small, scissors-like instrument.
	So, in terms of the most bizarre, that was one of the freshest cases we've ever done.
	We unambiguously showed that sharp instruments were used, but at the same time, this had the hallmarks of some kind of almost like a predator attack, but sharp instruments were used.
	There was no blood at all on the grass.
	How was the rancher after this?
	Rancher was extremely upset and paranoid because he had been 300 yards away during this whole thing.
	During broad daylight, in 45 minutes, it scared him enough to make a phone call very quickly.
	Speaking about the hotline number, operative even at this hour, and otherwise, what is it, 9 to 5?
	Well, actually, it's until 9 p.m.
	Pacific Time every night.
	That's midnight Eastern Time every night.
	We've got a live person there on Saturdays between 8 a.m.
	and 5 p.m.
	Except tonight, it's being manned right now.
	Area code 702, 798, 1700.
	702, the area code 702, then 798, 1700.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Colm Cullohar.
	Hi.
	Is that me?
	the record seven oh two than seven ninety seventeen hundred used to the
	rockies you're on the air with column color hot that's you
	or you're gonna have to yell at us or you You're not very strong.
	Can you hear me now?
	Barely.
	Go ahead.
	All right.
	First of all, I just want to say, Art, I really have to admire you because most of the general public just doesn't really believe in anything on your shows, and it's good to have somebody like you on the radio to get that out.
	Thank you.
	And secondly, I was wondering, I was listening to the news the other day, and I was wondering if you thought that maybe there was a connection between all of the wildfires and I was listening There's going to be a volcano eruption that could cause 150-foot waves, a tsunami... Well, no, wait a minute.
	These are all different things.
	There is a story saying that if there is an earthquake in the mid-Atlantic, that it could produce tsunamis that would wipe out East Coast cities.
	That's what you're referring to, right?
	Right.
	And then also, the UFO and the crop circles, all of this at the same time.
	You were talking about the quickening.
	I never read the book, but I was wondering if you thought maybe that all had a connection along with the animal attack right at once.
	Oh, the answer is absolutely yes.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	I did write a book called The Quickening, which you can get an autographed copy of, by the way.
	I've got a deal going on right now.
	Anyway, the point is, yes, it's all part of that.
	Events do seem to be accelerating in almost every field.
	Certainly in the strange and unusual category, we've got a real acceleration going on right now.
	I'm sure you'd agree with that, Colin.
	Yes, definitely.
	I think in the last several months, certainly we've had a lot more calls than we've had before, and also the incidence of animal mutilations have increased.
	In the last several months.
	Let me tell you something that NIDS probably should be looking at right now.
	I'm sure you've heard about this, but all of a sudden, Colm, there are animal attacks going on all over the world.
	Shark attacks in absolutely incredible numbers.
	I mean, sharks have always, from time to time, attacked, but it's going on almost constantly now.
	Bears are attacking people.
	Animals are behaving suddenly in a very, very bizarre fashion.
	Some insects are virtually disappearing that ought to be around.
	Some pretty weird things are going on.
	I don't know what it means, but I do observe it is occurring.
	Yeah, I've seen those reports too, especially of the sharks.
	It seems pretty intense if you're living out in Florida.
	We're not aware, though, of any specific linkage between these attacks and anything else in the paranormal area.
	But I do know that the incidence and the intensity of the paranormal slash UFOs are definitely on the increase.
	Right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Colm Culler.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	This is Anthony in Fairbanks.
	Yes, sir.
	Fairbanks, Alaska.
	Yes, I have a comment and a question.
	Now, I haven't seen these crop circles that you've been talking about in Chabotin, crop circles, but I've been listening intently to all of your descriptions of them, and you said that there was a representation of DNA, one of the glyphs was a representation of DNA.
	In the signal that we sent from Arecibo, sir, there was a representation of human DNA.
	In the received glyph, There was a representation of what some are saying is triple helix.
	I think Colm differs with that a little bit, but obviously DNA that's different than ours.
	Colm?
	Yeah, certainly the representation in the glyph of the DNA is different than the representation that was sent out from the Arecibo radio telescope in 1974.
	The two DNAs are different.
	Yes, I gather that.
	Now thinking, what if there was a race who, instead of sending out astronauts across the vast distances of space, would just send out their own DNA patterns to races who are doing cloning, who are doing genetic manipulation, who could possibly build them and recreate them on their own planet.
	That way they wouldn't have to send anybody, but they'd still be making contact.
	Well, you know, that was a favorite theory of the late and great Sir Fred Hoyle, who just died in the last couple of weeks, this theory of panspermia, in which he alleged that viruses, bacteria, were constantly coming in from outer space into Earth.
	And obviously, if you look at the virus The whole way it operates is by incorporating into human DNA and by acting accordingly.
	So, you could make the case for panspermia via viral genetic engineering, if you wanted to use that term.
	Okay, and my question was, I've heard about the cattle mutilations and I've heard stories of cat mutilations.
	And even horse rippings, but has NIDS ever looked into any other anomalous mutilations of animals or humans?
	We've had reports and we've actually, we've seen buffalo mutilations, we've seen elk mutilations, there's been sheep, but we've never actually done analysis on any of those animals.
	The only animals we've done are horse...
	It was a single horse mutilation we were involved in and all of the rest are cattle.
	But mutilations of wildlife are definitely well known, and as are buffalo.
	What about humans?
	We'll answer that when we get back.
	It's the one question you didn't answer.
	That'd be homicide, I guess, huh?
	You got me running, going out of my mind You got me thinking that I'm wasting my time
	Don't bring me down No, no, no, no, no
	I'll tell you a song before I get off the floor Don't bring me down
	You want to see a picture when I'm depressed I'm feeling you regardless, being in tears
	Don't bring me down Don't bring me down
	You got to understand the phenomenon, what's really going on that's necessary
	We've got to give it to you the way it is Hope you can take it.
	Everybody, NIDS will respect your privacy.
	They are an agency now listed in the FAA manual as a reporting agency for what pilots see out there.
	You are invited to report what you see, what you experience.
	And I've got a hotline number for you that is open at this hour.
	It's open right now.
	And it's generally open until 9 o'clock at night Pacific, but tonight, because Colin is here, it's open while he's on the air.
	That number is.
	Write it down.
	Keep it.
	Put it on your fridge.
	Put it next to the telephone.
	Whatever.
	Area code 702-798-1700.
	That's 702-798-1700.
	You can also go to my website, and under the name Colm Cullohar for tonight's guest, you will find a link to the website where you can also fill out a form if you don't want to make a phone call.
	Once again, Colm Cullohar.
	Welcome back.
	Thank you very much.
	Okay, there are lots and lots of people that wish to speak with you, so here we go.
	First time caller on the line, you are on the air with Cullum Culler.
	Hi.
	Hello, Art.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Mark from Great Falls, Montana.
	Yes, Mark.
	Hello, Art.
	I guess I just have two questions and then I'll hang up and let you guys talk.
	The first question is for you.
	I was just wondering, you mentioned a little earlier about Disney opening up a UFO thing
	for children.
	Absolutely, yes.
	I was just wondering, I heard a couple of weeks ago about one of your callers said that
	he had actually been in contact with extraterrestrials and they said they prefer children because
	children have an open mind.
	And I was just wondering, you know, maybe...
	Well, here's I think the way I would answer that.
	Look, if we are undergoing some sort of conditioning process, and anytime you want to condition an entire population, as in the whole population of the world, or at least this country, you would absolutely concentrate on children.
	The link on our webpage right now says, Disney site asks, have aliens visited Earth?
	It's for children.
	It's got a little gray alien with kind of a little smile on its face.
	You tell me.
	Okay.
	And well, the second question is for your guest.
	I am from Great Falls, Montana, and about a week or a week and a half ago, I can't remember the exact date, but we had in the Great Falls Tribune, that's our paper here in Great Falls, we actually had some stories about cow mutilations, and there were a couple photos in that paper.
	Now, I don't know the exact website of the Great Falls Tribune, but I bet if you found a search engine for it, You could find the pictures, which would show.
	As your guest said, some of the jaw was missing and some of the eyelids were missing.
	I don't have that address.
	As you point out, a search engine will bring it up.
	What I wanted to ask your guest was, I'm in Great Falls, Montana, like I said.
	Home of Malmstrom Air Force Base.
	Lately, in the past couple days, there's been a lot of helicopter activity here.
	It's been really late that I've been hearing choppers flying around.
	I'm talking about 11 or 12 at night.
	I just wanted to ask your guest, do you think the government knows what's going on?
	Do you think they might be trying to catch whoever's doing this?
	Do you think there's some concern?
	I guess that's about it.
	Oh, no.
	Well, that is a good question, actually.
	If they are not, in fact, the perpetrators, are they trying to catch them or are they monitoring them?
	Yeah, it is a good question because it really, certainly not the first time that helicopters have been seen in conjunction with both animal mutilation activity and in In conjunction with UFO activity, because even going back to Great Falls, that study that the Deputy Sheriff did during the mid-70s when there was a huge rush of UFO activity that were centered around Malmstrom Air Force Base, Malmstrom Air Force Base personnel were actually calling the Sheriff's Department for help because
	Unidentified flying objects were hovering over the various missile silos.
	You guys have 220 Minuteman missile silos in your general area spread out around a radius of maybe 100 to 200 miles, but there were several calls that were logged by the law enforcement officers of unknown helicopters As well as unknown flying objects that were seen directly over the missile silos.
	So this must have been a cause of grave concern.
	The second part of the whole issue was that the law enforcement people got very friendly with the people from Malmstrom Air Force Base.
	And it became pretty obvious that most of the personnel on the base had no idea what was going on.
	In other words, they were not the perpetrators.
	Of the UFO activity or indeed some of the so-called helicopter activity that was seen around the base.
	Now, whether or not that has anything to do with the current happenings, I'm not sure.
	But we do know, we've interviewed law enforcement people in Colorado who have seen helicopters right on the ground beside Certainly would be nice to have one of those pilots call your hotline number, wouldn't it?
	Yes, that would be really good.
	702-798-1700, because we actually had a testimony from a sheriff who got in his car and followed the helicopter after it took off from beside the mutilated animal, followed it all the way to one of the Air Force bases in Colorado.
	Knocked on the door and demanded to know what was going on because a lot of his constituents were extremely concerned about the mutilations and essentially was told to go away.
	Really?
	Yes.
	And this happened in the... I've never heard of that.
	Oh my.
	So it happened in Colorado and the testimony is very high quality.
	Now the question is, was the helicopter investigating or perpetrating?
	And that question has never been answered because it is not outside the bounds of possibility that the helicopter was investigating the mutilation and they just didn't want people to know or else the helicopter was part of the problem.
	But that actually took place in Colorado and we have two separate sets of testimony that bear that kind of thing out.
	All right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Colm Culloher.
	Hello.
	Hello, Mr. Bell.
	How are you?
	I'm fine, sir.
	Mr. Bell, and yourself.
	This is Steve out of Tennessee near the hospital plant down here, the one that you talked about a while back, Mr. Bell.
	Yes, sir.
	What I wanted to mention is I don't know if either one of you have ever noticed, I saw a movie, I don't believe in a lot of science fiction movies, but I saw A movie one time called the Roswell UFO Autopsy, and in that thing they showed this metal piece, and this pertains something to the crop circles we're talking about.
	On that metal piece, you have to observe it very quick and very close, the same symbols that are in these fields are on those pieces of metal, if you follow my meaning.
	I don't think I've ever seen it.
	I certainly know what you're referring to.
	I'd have to go back and look.
	It shows pieces of the wreckage, and this one piece of I-beam has the large circle with a straight line coming off of it, with small circles.
	It also has wavy lines.
	You know, that might be right.
	It does.
	It has the same identical markings of the 47 Roswell crash.
	I don't think I've ever seen it.
	I certainly know what you're referring to.
	I'd have to go back and look.
	and i think i think it was i appreciate the culture you know you really might be right
	about that i do seem to recall
	i don't think i've ever seen it i i certainly know what you're referring to
	uh... i'd have to go back and look it shows pieces of the wreckage
	and this one piece of i've been has the
	the uh... large circle
	with a straight line coming off of it with small circles, it also has wavy lines.
	You know, that might be right.
	It does.
	It has the same identical markings of the 47 Roswell crash that are showing up in England, and in all these quad circles that are showing up, it has the same identicals.
	I appreciate the call, sir.
	You know, he really might be right about that.
	I do seem to recall I do seem to recall the circle on the line and the other circles that he's talking about on some of the Roswell crash debris.
	That's very interesting.
	So this must have been in some of the early crop formations?
	Yeah, in the early, that's right.
	Yeah.
	That's correct.
	Yes, he's got a really good point.
	I'm going to go back and look.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Colm Culloher.
	Hello.
	Yes, sir.
	This is Brooke.
	I'm calling from the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont.
	Yes, sir.
	And I spoke to you last week about the mysterious hum phenomenon.
	Oh, that's right.
	And I was going to ask Colm if he is aware of this phenomenon, and I also wanted to get your website for the German hum phenomenon, and I have found out some very interesting information in the last week that I've spoken to you.
	All right, indeed.
	Newsweek Magazine covered this in 1993.
	in uh... times vermont tell him tells new mexico yes
	and in vermont and in indiana you know about the interesting thing about this
	is no one's been able to resolve it that's right and you also did a very interesting show on saturday night
	with barbara simpson where she had a guest on
	who was discussing this phenomena as it relates to animals in the ocean like dolphins and
	whales yes and how sonar or radiation
	uh... affects the animals and their uh...
	means of thinking and how it disorients them and confuses them
	And according to the story I have does the same thing to uh... people uh... there really is a big story right now
	that i i bet you're aware of column are going on in germany
	uh... some sort of uh... in in germany's southwest people it says are being driven to destruction by a
	mysterious nocturnal buzzing
	noise seriously enough for the local authorities there to decide to
	investigate the matter scientifically many been complaining of racing pulse fatigue along with a
	sense of excitation
	uncontrollable muscle quivering during the resulting insomnia
	This is going on all over the southwest of Germany.
	It did go on in Taos.
	It's pretty weird.
	Have you been hearing about it?
	I've been hearing the reports from Germany, but we have really no background on it at all beyond the news reports.
	We certainly were aware of the talisman that went on several years ago, but that has never been resolved either.
	It certainly wouldn't surprise me that there's these intense physiological reactions in response to different frequencies of sound.
	Who's doing it?
	We have no idea.
	Well, in this story, there's a bit of speculation.
	I have interviewed any number of people on the Heart Project in Alaska.
	It is not the only project of its type around the world.
	There is a lot of research going on right now.
	uh... by the military and uh... as civilian connected uh... uh... companies into bouncing of very very high power are signals off the ionosphere they say that one application of this technology would be to confuse and disrupt the mental processes of thinking processes of uh... enemy troops for example You know, there's a lot of speculation going on that a little bit of testing might be underway.
	So you're saying then that the radio frequencies are bouncing back and then that they're vibrating within the skulls and they're being heard as a hum?
	Well, I couldn't speculate that far, but resonating in some way with something that's causing the buzzing and the disorienting feeling that people are getting, racing pulse, that kind of thing.
	Exactly the kind of thing that it was said harp could potentially produce.
	Was that kind of thing also found in Taos?
	No.
	Because I wasn't aware of physiological reactions in Taos.
	No.
	No.
	Although that kind of deep, low frequency rumble isn't irritant to human beings, of course.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Wes of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	We'll call him, call her.
	Hello?
	Hello.
	Yes, sir.
	You're on the air.
	You're on the air, sir.
	Going once.
	Going twice.
	Gone.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Colm Culloher.
	Hello.
	Wow, Art Bell?
	Yes, sir.
	Hey, I just want to pay a patronage to your show.
	Around here we say patronage, I'm sorry.
	Oh, that's great.
	Thank you very much.
	It's kind of a subjective, kind of a patriotic, you know, patriarchal kind of thing.
	But if I could, I'd just like to glorify your ego a minute and just ask you a question and have you respond maybe, possibly.
	Well, I've got a guest right now, sir, so I'd prefer you glorified his ego and asked him a question.
	Well, that's exactly what I'd be happy to do.
	Good, good.
	Could you put me on hold?
	You're asking to be put on hold?
	Yeah.
	You're on the air.
	Why do you want to be put on hold?
	Well, because I'd like to ask the question.
	I never got to talk to you before.
	Sir, you're on the air.
	This is it.
	This is your moment.
	Ask your question.
	I got on late and I've always wanted to talk to Art Bell.
	I've talked to everybody at Books a Million and everywhere around the world that talks about Art Bell.
	Then I get on the air and I don't know that I'm on the air.
	I know they're talking about the crop-fill things.
	I studied a lot of Jungian archetypal psychology, and I just want to say that I think those British kids are playing a prank.
	There would be an easy way to settle that.
	Listen on the air.
	What do you think of this idea, Colin?
	It was suggested to me earlier today in an email that to settle this once and for all, why not take some college kids, good bright ones that we could find, Yeah, I think it would be a good experiment.
	the Arecibo message and or better yet perhaps the reply so we're exactly doing the same
	thing and give them the overnight hours and whatever boards and chains they'd like send
	them off into the field and let them try and reproduce it you know the best and the brightest
	in Britain and let them try and reproduce it overnight what do you think?
	Yeah I think it'd be a good experiment especially if there were monitors there because there
	is a tendency for these TV production things to get very nebulous in terms of what's actually
	been done how many people are involved how long it takes that kind of thing and it
	It would be very nice for once and for all to set it up under controlled conditions where none of the students, in this case, would have a chance to change the ground rules because a lot of these Well, I say take the best and the brightest.
	in the past, the ground rules suddenly change, the formation gets a lot smaller, the time
	allotted gets a lot longer, and it really never has turned out properly.
	Well, I say take the best and the brightest, let them have as big a team as they want.
	Personally, I think you get too many cooks in the wheat kitchen and it's going to be
	ruined, but let them pick as many as they want, and in the six hours or seven hours,
	whatever they have of darkness over there, reproduce with precision what we have in that
	field.
	Simple as that.
	And I suspect in the morning, what you're going to have is a miserable mess that's not
	even close to what's there.
	Would you concur with that?
	Well, I would like to see the attempting done on the face, too, because it would really be very, very harsh on mistakes, because mistakes would show up very easily on that face.
	Well, the other night I interviewed Seth Shostak from SETI, you know, the SETI Institute.
	Oh, yes.
	And that was his reply when he was asked what he thought uh... did that he thought uh... graduate level college
	students had done it that was uh... his explanation and
	and uh... you know i i just thought will find them let's let's go get some of those bright uh...
	guys and gals and give them love whatever they want boards and chains and
	let them have added overnight and and see if they could do it
	well certainly that the biology in the uh... the astronomy behind the the
	message is is is certainly graduate level
	but in terms of uh... technique is uh... that's a bit Well, having been in a crop circle yourself, the people that I've talked to that have actually been inside crop circles have not had the faintest idea, really, where they are within the crop circle, and they sort of stumble around.
	They don't even know when they're at the center of the crop circle, much less the ability to make that in the overnight hours.
	Even in the daylight, trying to make your way from one part of the crop circle to the other is actually rather difficult.
	Looks like it'd be real easy from the air shots, but not so easy when you're on the ground.
	Yeah, it's a totally different viewpoint when you're on the ground.
	I bet it is.
	Stay right where you are.
	Bend me, shape me.
	But you better stay away from my eye without needle, partner.
	I'm a woman, I'm a woman, I'm a woman.
	I'll give you all that I own.
	Got the things that you like.
	I'm in the zone, leaving the line.
	Fuck baby, fuck anyway.
	the did and uh... a column colorado column you there yes i am
	good for one more little segment here brochure or a or when he returns first
	time caller line your audio column colorado dot gov good morning
	good morning this is gone now I'm listening to you out of Bowling Green, Kentucky at 5010 WLAC out of Nashville.
	All right for you, Don.
	All right, thank you.
	It's an honor.
	Mr. Culliger, have you heard of anything about this massive UFO in Maine that happened on the 22nd at about 1014 p.m.?
	I've seen the reports, but we haven't done any investigation of it.
	According to family members that lived there, it blacked out the sky.
	And not only that, it coincided at the same time with three or four other towns within a 25 mile radius.
	So you haven't heard of anything.
	They're listening to your show, this show tonight, and wondering.
	Do you happen to have any phone numbers?
	Yes, I will give them.
	I will call your number and I will give that.
	to you. Yeah, because the person that we have on the line can take those numbers of the eyewitnesses
	because we'd like to talk to those people. Okay, in fact I'll have them contact you personally.
	That'd be great. I'd be glad to know if you heard of anything and thank you very much.
	All right sir, thank you very much. That's exactly the kind of thing that you're looking for.
	Yes, exactly. What was the report?
	Did you get something massive in Maine?
	Yeah, it was on the internet actually in the last couple of days, and I can't remember which side it was on, but I came across a very, very large UFO, just as he described.
	Details are really scanty, and quite honestly, before the call, we hadn't followed it up because of the lack of detail.
	Alright, well, maybe you've got it now.
	We'll see.
	That's right.
	All right, wildcard line, you're on there with Callum Kelleher.
	Hello.
	Yes, hello.
	Yes, sir.
	Hi, Art.
	Hi, this is Bill in West Hartford, Connecticut.
	Dr. Kelleher, I am an amateur astronomer, and I have a fantastic idea regarding the origins of these beings that are in the UFOs, and I do think there's something to the ufology.
	It has to do with timelines.
	Let me explain.
	What I'm going to say solves the question that Dr. Carl Sagan was fond of saying, that An alien being many trillions of miles away, light years away, independent biological evolution, could have less chance of mating, or even if their science was a million years ahead of us, combining with human sperm or egg, than a man could mate with a petunia.
	Now, if instead these beings are not so much some where, meaning where, but some when, what I'm trying to say is if you consider Dr. John Gribbon's multiverse, or Michio Kaku's multiverse, different timelines of the Earth, Well, I'm trying to say is, let's say if that asteroid that we know hit the Earth 65 million years ago and destroyed the dinosaurs, let's say in an Earth of another timeline that asteroid missed the Earth 5 million miles or whatever, and these dinosaurs had 65 million more years to evolve from then to now, could some of these aliens, the greys, be sort of, I'll coin a term, dinosauroids, meaning intelligent dinosaurs who evolved to these beings now because they had 65 million more years to live?
	Alright, well, okay, that's fine right there, thank you.
	That actually is not...
	Not wild a concept, is it?
	Not that wild, because there was a really intriguing report that came through one of our consultants regarding the alleged alien autopsy.
	When that was performed, one of the things that they noticed was a three-chambered heart.
	Which is characteristic of, as you probably know, reptiles.
	Oh yes.
	And so this was one of these alleged beings that were found in one of the crashes.
	I'm not sure if it was the so-called Roswell crash or some other, but the striking part was the three-chambered heart.
	Regarding the other, the parallel universe or time shift theory, The way we look at it is that the jury is still out.
	I think it would be almost as easy these days, or perhaps even easier, to convince a jury of, for example, what that gentleman just laid out from Connecticut, as it would to convince them we're being visited by little green guys from another planet in another system, impossible light years away from us.
	One is as good a case as the other, isn't it?
	Well, right now, the science is so far behind the kinds of observations that are being generated almost on a daily basis.
	It really does mean that the people who are on the edge in terms of physics, we have one of our physicists who is investigating the whole wormhole phenomenon, which is definitely allied with time shifts.
	Sure.
	Yeah, I would say we would need to keep an open mind.
	Actually, a grand jury would probably toss either one out with equal zeal.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Colm Culloher.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Yes, sir.
	Where are you?
	Where are you?
	Hello.
	Going once.
	Hello.
	Yes, speak.
	Hi, this is Chris in Chicago.
	Yes, Chris.
	And I have something to comment concerning what was happening in southern Germany.
	Oh, the buzzing, yes.
	Well, from what was said about it, it sounded exactly like what would happen if someone was being exposed to high power microwaves or radar waves.
	In fact, the late Fordian researcher, Frank Edwards, once wrote about that in one of his books, that some people have the ability to hear radar waves.
	And it sounds similar to bees buzzing.
	You know, I think if you were exposed to high-power microwave energy, you'd hear a buzzing in your head.
	I think that's pretty well known.
	Colum?
	Yes, and actually, James McComble, who is also very well known, Research with an engineering background has coined a similar theory that microwaves of a specific wavelength resonate inside the skull, the actual human skull, to create that kind of a sound.
	So the perception is that the person is hearing the buzzing, or sometimes it can be a higher pitch or a lower pitch, And he always, McCampbell always said that if the pitch rose to the level of a whistle, that danger was there.
	In other words, the person needed to get the hell out of there.
	also are scientific american in the past issue i forget what year and month
	uh... they did uh... an article on that on the plane plane
	and which they are uh... were
	discussing how the experimental set up how how well people
	can hear some people in a way can hear microwaves
	all right uh... thank you very much that could account for that story who knows
	uh... just on on that too we we had a uh... a case uh...
	pretty close to that experiment once we have in utah
	of a gentleman who was sitting watching t v and uh... he heard exactly that kind of found
	It was a lower pitch, and then it rose to a shrill whistle, and almost instantaneously, he started nose-bleeding.
	At that time, there were UFOs seen in the area.
	Oh, what a strange world.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Colm Callagher.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, I just saw this send over in San Diego and I was just had two questions
	that one to Dr. Kelleher.
	Do you happen to know if on most cloth circles or specifically on the galaxy one, whether
	or not the circles are clockwise or counterclockwise?
	I don't have information on these particular ones, but I know in general, they're both
	clockwise and counterclockwise and sometimes they're both in the same formation.
	In other words, sometimes the swirl goes clockwise and then the next circle down the swirl will be anticlockwise.
	I see.
	The second question is kind of a question and comment.
	It seemed to me if these were made from a higher being or from extraterrestrials or something like that, that they'd be very precise in their formation.
	symmetry and whereas the galaxy one is very symmetrical it seems I was noticing a small
	I guess a very small problem with the symmetry I don't know if you can go to the internet
	but the one from Steve Alexander the photo of the galaxy one it shows on the spiral coming
	up from the center circle between the seventh and eighth circles there's a big space on
	between the circles coming down from each of those as opposed to the other spirals in
	the same position.
	And I was just curious what you thought about, you know, it seems like with a problem like that it would have to be a man made circle or crop formation because of that.
	lack of complete symmetry.
	I don't know, what do you think about that?
	Are you talking about the Chilbolton formation?
	Yes, I guess it's there by the Chilbolton, but yeah, the one with the 409 circles.
	Oh, I see, the Mill Hill one.
	Oh, I see.
	Yes, the galaxy or Mill Hill.
	Okay, and you're saying that there's a lack of symmetry.
	Yeah, that there's a lack of symmetry.
	I could walk you through it if you are looking at the actual picture that I am looking at
	by Steve Alexander.
	It's on Art's website.
	Logistically, that particular one was 409 separate circles.
	Like I mentioned before, it would need an enormous number of people to have carried
	that out because I'm not sure if it was discussed on the show before, but from any given point
	in the circle, there are so many hills and valleys in that actual field that it is impossible
	to see all points in the circle from any vantage point.
	In other words, if you're trying to coordinate this kind of 409-circle construction in the rain during the night, You would need an army of people with walkie-talkies.
	Right.
	Well, I'm sorry, I can't get to it that quickly.
	Yeah, I'm looking at it right now.
	Oh, you are?
	So you're saying that at any angle, even from an airplane?
	Well, not from an airplane, but I'm talking about from the ground.
	The aerial shot does not show the terrain.
	Well, I'm saying it's not made on the ground.
	valleys in the terrain in this field where the crop formation is, which means that at
	any given point you cannot see the total formation.
	Right.
	I guess, so it's obviously that you're saying that it's not made by man.
	Well I'm saying it's not made on the ground.
	I would speculate that it's made from the air.
	Wow, and you were mentioning I think before either by aircraft or of some sort that you
	can't even begin to speculate on how they did it, like whether it be microwave radiation
	Well, some of the speculation is laser, which is microwave laser, or some kind of, maybe even high-intensity infrared, or straight microwave.
	I see.
	Now, the only people who would really have equipment to do that from aircraft would obviously be the military, the government, right?
	That's correct.
	And if they're doing it, then we should have lots of questions about why and why they're sending us messages now with faces and with answers from Arecibo signals.
	That gets a little out on the edge.
	The so-called military or government explanation gets more tenuous all the time because if you're trying to calibrate an instrument, it's gone way beyond the stage of calibration now because this kind of circle or formation was being made in 1996, five years ago.
	This is a more complex version of those I can't fathom why they would do that.
	So five years in the interim, you really don't need to calibrate the instrument anymore is
	what I'm saying.
	Yeah, wouldn't you wonder why your government would be doing that, sir?
	Right, right.
	I can't fathom why they would do that.
	I really want to believe that it's from extraterrestrial because it would be an interesting, I don't
	know, way of communicating.
	Well, one thing to bear in mind, and that is what we discussed heavily the other night,
	when you consider the extraterrestrial scenario, everybody says ridiculous.
	They'd have lots of better ways to communicate.
	But, you know, we don't know that they think as we do.
	In fact, there's really a pretty good chance that they don't.
	That they may communicate and transmit their thoughts in an entirely different manner.
	than ours. Just a thought. Wildcard line, you're on the air with Colm Cullohar. Hello.
	Going once. Are you there? Wildcard line, going once. Going twice.
	Well, you know, Art, just on that communication issue, one of the things that has crossed our
	mind is the recent increase in the UFO phenomena. We wondered, was there an increase, a corresponding
	increase in people receiving communications from these alleged UFO or ET phenomena?
	Good question.
	Because traditionally during UFO waves in the 40s and 50s, for example, there was a big increase in even mediums contacting UFOs or contacting ETs.
	And we're wondering, is the same thing happening?
	In the year 2001.
	Good question.
	Maybe time for one more.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Colm Callagher.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello, where are you?
	Fort Myers, Florida.
	Okay.
	What do you think if it was like a teenager using a Natchez sketch?
	Just passing time.
	What?
	I don't know what you mean.
	Using the Wheatfields as a Natchez sketch.
	How?
	How, yes.
	How?
	Yes.
	The method wouldn't be up to us.
	But he's just amusing himself.
	I don't... Playing in a medium where he can create something and then it goes away.
	Come down to the ground with us, sir.
	How did this teenager do it?
	Hello?
	Everybody's been talking about radio waves.
	That could be a way.
	I don't mean a teenager from Earth.
	I mean a teenager from outer space.
	You mean somebody just... Amusing themselves.
	A prankster, huh?
	Yes.
	The son of Q.
	Yes.
	Look, that's as good an answer as any other.
	The fact of the matter is, there are really no good answers.
	I think that all we've really determined is, this has not been done on the ground.
	Again, I would invite Anybody to get some, you know, graduate-level students together, give them what they want, and let them go have at it, trying to duplicate this in the overnight hours, and then we'll know.
	Yeah, I just got an interesting email on the faith formation in which this gentleman, Patrick Tolan, is saying that the faith is actually I've heard yes, I've had similar emails.
	You have?
	Okay, so I hadn't heard that before.
	Colin, we're coming toward the end of all this.
	Of course, you should give out your hotline number again and your website info and whatever else you want to say at the very end of the program here.
	The hotline number is area code 702-798-1700.
	We keep all of the identities of our eyewitnesses completely confidential.
	That goes for animal mutilations, people reporting animal mutilations.
	Our website address is www.nidsci.org and if you go to the website One of the reports that we've just put up today is on the Carter at New Jersey series of sightings.
	We now have transcripts from 13 separate eyewitnesses on the website.
	That's both from the New Jersey Turnpike side and as well as the Staten Island side.
	In other words, we're beginning to triangulate from two different locations the eyewitness accounts of that V-shaped formation of lights that occurred in new jersey uh... last month
	uh... so you can go to the website to to check out the all of the transcripts
	from all thirteen eyewitnesses are now on the website uh... furthermore we we do have some uh... preliminary into
	the information from the f a a regarding the new york international airport
	that does say that uh... there were
	objects in the air at the time that did not have transponders Oh, really?
	As in seen on radar?
	As in seen on radar.
	Oh, you should have told me that a lot earlier.
	I didn't know that.
	I actually meant to, but I got carried away with the time.
	Seen on radar.
	In the Carteret Sightings.
	Oh my, oh my.
	In the Carteret Sightings.
	So our initial take was, you know, maybe flares or Some such, but the overwhelming testimony that has come out, plus the new preliminary data coming from the FAA, is saying that... Incredible.
	...that objects were in the air that did not have transponders, that should not have been there at the time.
	Well, this is some way to close.
	Thank you, my friend, and good night.
	Oh, absolutely.
	Good night, Colin.
	Great to talk to you.
	And you.
	Good night.

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