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Aug. 9, 2001 - Art Bell

02:40:51

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard C. Hoagland - Monuments of Mars

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	What do Mel Gibson and the Coral Castle have in common?
	Find out in the Yeti of the Dark News.
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be across the world.
	From coast to coast and well beyond, this is Coast to Coast AM and I'm Art Bell.
	How they do, all you chosen ones out there.
	Great to be here tonight.
	Next hour, Richard C. Hoagland will be here.
	He claims to have solved the mystery of Mars.
	No small claim.
	Listen, as we sail over 500 affiliates now nationwide, I would like to welcome WCBX in Martinsville, Virginia.
	900 on the AM dial in Martinsville.
	And get this, folks.
	We thought they had been there earlier, but tonight, I really, really, really would like to welcome WTNT.
	Interesting call letters for Washington, D.C., wouldn't you say?
	Washington, Bethesda.
	570 on the dial.
	That should carry and carry and carry.
	570 on the dial.
	Washington, D.C.
	and the Bethesda area.
	WTNT.
	TNT.
	All right.
	I want to get open lines fairly soon this hour, but a couple of things, a few things to get in here.
	President Bush, as you know, said Thursday night he is in fact going to support federal funding for limited medical research on embryonic stem cells.
	Ending months of anguish on the diverse issue, Bush said his decision balanced concerns about protecting life and improving life.
	I've made this decision with great care and pray it's the right one.
	Bush said in a primetime speech from his Texas ranch, I think he made, all in all, probably a good decision.
	I have a feeling that the pro-life forces on the right are not going to feel that way at all.
	We'll see.
	A Palestinian suicide bomber detonated a nail-studded explosive inside a crowded Jerusalem pizzeria At lunchtime on Thursday, it killed 15 people, wounded 90 more.
	There will be retribution, and I fear, soon, a Mideast war.
	NASA has delayed the shuttle launch.
	Guess why?
	Thunderstorms.
	But we'll see.
	And indeed, the weather is a story.
	The heat wave that has baked much of the country for days set more records Thursday.
	The mercury reaching 102 in New York, 103 in Newark, breaking the record for the date of 100 set in both cities in 1949.
	Up where my network is in Oregon, 108 degrees hotter than it was here near Death Valley.
	Here's a couple of emails I thought you might like to hear, Art.
	Here in Ontario, We've had 15 heat records broken this week, coupled, not too ironically, with record severe smog alert days.
	Temperature has been about 36 to 7 Celsius, or something like 97 or 98 degrees Fahrenheit.
	With humidity, they say, we're well into the 105s.
	And to top it all off, at the beginning of the week appeared thousands and thousands, if not millions, of tiny fruit fly-type bugs flying around everywhere in Toronto.
	I mean, there was not a person walking around In the sixth largest city in North America that wasn't swiping at the bugs, wiping them off their eyes, mouths, blowing them out of their noses.
	Yuck!
	I mean, these bugs were everywhere like rain.
	When I got home, there were hundreds of them, mostly dead in my pockets and all over the outside of my clothes.
	At first, I thought it must be normal somehow, and it was just one of those strange bug days that I'd never really noticed before.
	And these bugs had all hatched at the same time or something.
	The paper says they're aphids, and this had never happened in the city before.
	It said it had something to do with them migrating because of the heat wave or something like that.
	Guess what?
	They were back again today, and then I got this.
	Hey, Art!
	Hello from Northern Italy.
	That's where I am, and these hailstorms are incredible.
	It damages cars and homes all the time now.
	Three weeks ago, there was a tornado by my home near Milan.
	A tornado that's really unheard of here.
	I've lived in Seattle for many years.
	Never seen weather like this.
	Locals say it's weirdest they've ever seen.
	And so it goes on and on and on.
	I get all kinds of email, faxes, and stories about the bizarre weather.
	Wake up, everybody.
	The change is underway.
	Investigators in north-central Montana are baffled by a string of cattle mutilations since mid-June, prompting one agency to seek help from a group that studies unconventional theories, including UFOs.
	Ranchers in Dubai and Fort Shaw have reported four cattle deaths in which portions of the animals' faces were cut or peeled off and eyeballs and genitals removed.
	The animals have not been shot.
	Investigators say whoever is responsible left very few clues behind.
	The killings are similar to a string of cattle deaths in the 1970s in the same general area in which more than 60 cattle in five counties were found mutilated.
	Those remains remain unsolved and prompted speculation at the time that some of the deaths were the work of aliens or satanic cults of some sort.
	But none of that really works out.
	You might want to know nobody has ever been charged and convicted of doing any of this stuff.
	Colm Cullerhard, Deputy Administrator of the National Institute for Discovery Science in
	Las Vegas, you know him, he's on here all the time, confirmed Tuesday the Sheriff's
	Office had contacted the Institute for help.
	They heard about some of our previous research from a retired Deputy Sheriff in the area,
	said Colm.
	The group describes itself as a research organization that studies a variety of unconventional scientific
	theories, well you certainly know about nids, don't you?
	One of you writes in email, Art, could these animal mutilations have anything to do with cloning?
	Going after reproductive organs and other parts like udders, eyeballs, tongues, well it sounds somewhat similar to what they did to clone Dolly, the sheep in the UK.
	With Dolly, they took a cell from a sheep's udder, and by using electricity, combined it with a cell from another sheep.
	I don't know, but I thought it could be an interesting theory, and it is an interesting theory, isn't it, as we prepare, I guess, on a ship offshore to clone 200 human beings.
	You know about that story.
	Ah, but we do indeed live in strange times, don't we, folks?
	Anyway, I want to get the lines open very early tonight, so that's coming up in a moment.
	All right, let us move to open lines.
	Anything goes.
	Talk radio.
	Anything you want to talk about is fair game.
	Those were just a few suggestions at the beginning.
	First-time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Uh, hello, Art.
	Hello, sir.
	I'm calling from Bington, New York.
	Okay.
	Well, it's kind of hot here, but Yeah, it's been a pretty good heat wave, huh?
	Listen, I want to do a follow-up on that story you did about the guy that hooked himself up to his long-term insurance and took off with balloons.
	Oh, yes.
	I remember you said you like stories like that.
	Well, I've got the original guy.
	Back around 1954, an airline pilot was coming into Albany Airport in Albany, New York.
	And he called the tower and said that he was looking at a guy through his binoculars, sitting on a bicycle tire, eating a lettuce and tomato sandwich, and waving at him.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	Sitting on a bicycle?
	On a bicycle tire.
	On a bicycle tire.
	Right.
	And it was suspended by about 20 weather balloons.
	Now, was this bicycle tire horizontal?
	Allowing him to sit in it?
	Yeah, he was sitting horizontally.
	Suspended by 20 weather balloons?
	Yep.
	And he was eating what?
	He was eating a lettuce and tomato sandwich and he was waving at the pilot.
	And at what altitude roughly was all this?
	Well, I would say probably maybe 2,000 feet or so.
	The state police immediately took after him.
	How did they do that?
	I don't know.
	They tracked them and they finally found them bouncing along in a garden.
	What?
	Bouncing along in a garden?
	Yeah, trying to get down.
	The ground winds were pretty gusty and he kept blowing them back up.
	One of the state police grabbed them, pulled them down, and they dragged the two of them
	through a tomato patch.
	Didn't make the state policeman too happy because he put on a brand new uniform that day.
	Now, I worked for a TV station at that time, WTRI, a little UHF station in Albany, and we brought this guy in for an interview.
	Well, it turned out the guy was very intelligent.
	His name was Garrett Cashman, a very intelligent sounding fellow, very well dressed, just an
	adventurer.
	The upshot of that was that Pepsi-Cola, it may have been Coca-Cola, picked him up for
	an advertising campaign for some time.
	He used to appear at fairs and different events.
	I remember when they came into the stage, they asked, how did you get down once you
	got up there?
	And he had himself a pocket full of, I think it was BBs or, I don't know, what do you call them, ball bearings, and a slingshot, which the guy in the lawn furniture had a BB gun.
	That's right.
	Either one would work.
	Yeah, and so it worked.
	But anyway, the guy became quite famous over this, and he was in, I don't know if you remember, they used to call them men's magazines.
	They had Argosy and True Magazine.
	Oh, sure.
	And they had big full-page spreads with him.
	They had an article in them, you know, a two- or three-page article about the guy.
	You know, it's something I'd be tempted.
	I actually would love to try it myself.
	You figure it would take about 20 weather balloons, huh?
	Well, he's, I don't remember, not 20 or so.
	The thing of it is, I'd love to know whatever happened to the guy.
	He'd be a guy in his 70s probably now, and the Albany Papers would have a story on it, or the Schenectady Papers, New York.
	Probably in microfiche archives by now.
	Yeah, I imagine, because as I say, he got quite a lot of notoriety over the thing, and he wasn't a dummy.
	He knew what he was doing, you know?
	Would you do it?
	Huh?
	Would I get on a bicycle tire?
	Well, I mean, not necessarily a bicycle tire.
	He also corrected, he had a pillow where the hub of the thing was, because he got a little uncomfortable if you didn't.
	Well, yeah, I can imagine that.
	So I can imagine a... I mean, a lawn chair was perhaps more intelligent in terms of raw comfort.
	Well, yeah, yeah.
	I really might... I'd be tempted to do that.
	I mean, you've got to admit, floating in that way would really be cool.
	Yeah, I would imagine it would be the thrill of a lifetime.
	It would be dangerous, however.
	Here in the desert, for example, we have these wonderful, calm, beautiful, nothing-stirs kind of days.
	But then, here in the desert, near Death Valley, the wind can come up.
	With zero warning, and you can go from zero, I mean absolute calm, to 30 miles an hour in about one minute.
	And my luck, I'd get up there.
	Anyway, you get the picture.
	Alright, listen, I really appreciate the story.
	Well, I wish, if anybody remembers him, I wish they'd call in, because I'd love to know whatever happened to the guy.
	Alright, well let's find out.
	Thank you very much for the, I had no idea there was a A precursor to Larry's lawn chair adventure.
	This is really something.
	I mean, you've got to admit, it's probably a guy thing.
	Maybe not.
	Maybe a lot of gals would want to try it, too.
	Would you?
	It is pretty tempting.
	I don't think I'd go overboard and put up enough balloons to carry me to some gigantic great altitude.
	I'd want to kind of just float, you know, above the trees, maybe, and certainly above the power lines, but not much higher.
	About like that, and sort of drift across the valley on a nice day.
	That would be a trip, wouldn't it?
	But somehow, something always goes wrong, and you're waving at 747s at full cruise altitude.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yeah, in regard to the balloonist with the lawn chair, I don't know if it's a case of art imitating life or life imitating art, but that was the thing of an A-Team episode several years back.
	Well, listen, sir.
	I don't know whether you heard it on the program, but one night, we found a man who had the actual audio from the ascent.
	In other words, Larry had a radio with him, and he was communicating with his wife and with authorities, and we played all of that on the air.
	Were you aware of that?
	Unfortunately, I missed that one.
	I'm a long-haul truck driver, and there are dead spots, believe it or not, in this nation.
	Oh, one of these nights, I will play that again, because it's classic.
	Please do.
	Okay.
	And do something about getting on the air in Arizona, because I, uh, 10, all the way from Phoenix into, like, Barso, I don't get to pick you up.
	You're kidding.
	No!
	Uh, why don't you try, um, KDWN, for example, In Las Vegas.
	Why don't you try... 720.
	I don't get them.
	How about 770 from Albuquerque?
	That should certainly work.
	I'll try that one.
	I got you on 550 right now, but I'm going to lose you in about another 15 miles.
	Well, try 770.
	770.
	I will do that.
	Or maybe even 640 KFI from Los Angeles.
	Believe it or not, they don't come through to the desert.
	All right.
	Well, just keep trying those lower end stations and you'll find us, I guarantee.
	Oh, well, especially now that you've got so many more stations coming up, it's getting easier and easier to find you again.
	In excess of 500 and building, actually.
	We're chasing Rush right now.
	And whether or not we make it is really immaterial to me.
	Going in excess of 500 affiliates nationwide really is some kind of record for a long-form radio show, and I'm very, very, very proud of that.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hi, how are you?
	I'm okay, sir.
	Where are you?
	This is Rich in Rochester, Michigan.
	Okay, Rich.
	We've got static on here.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	Do you hear all that?
	Yeah, a little bit.
	Question for you.
	Real quick.
	When the remote viewers do the remote thing, is there like a time frame of how far they can go back?
	Okay, the answer for you is no.
	There is no limitation to remote viewing.
	Either in space, although that is disputed by some.
	In other words, how far you can go.
	Or time.
	And I believe there is no dispute about that at all.
	In other words, you can remote view into the past or into the future.
	Or naturally, the present as well.
	No limitations with regard to time.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	I think we've got a non-functional cell phone there.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, um, I was wondering, you know MTV has a, like a reality show, it's like called Fear.
	Have you ever seen it?
	Oh yes.
	Is those, do you think it's interesting?
	Um, yes.
	I would do it a little differently.
	Yeah, it's kind of cheesy.
	It's like they try and make it more psychologically, like the kids are freaking themselves out.
	I think it should be a long form thing.
	I think it should be a real haunted house.
	I think that, uh, the network doing it should Really screw with them big time.
	Yeah.
	You know, with all special effects capabilities that they have these days.
	And then there would be no way the people inside could discern if it was real or fake.
	And the idea would be they could leave any time.
	And I guarantee you quite a few would.
	Yeah.
	I also like to see the footage they have with all those infrared cameras and everything they have set up everywhere, you know?
	Sure.
	Let's see if they picked up anything.
	Well, I just thought you'd be interested in seeing it.
	I don't know if you've ever watched it.
	Oh, you bet, of course.
	OK, great.
	Have a good night.
	All right, thank you.
	I'm a big fan of reality TV, which a lot of people hate.
	Even Big Brother, I watch that.
	People pan that.
	Boy, that got a terrible review and TV Guide, just terrible.
	But it is interesting because it's a study of human nature.
	It's kind of like putting all the rats together and watching them eat themselves alive.
	And it's really not all that much different from that.
	And so it's kind of an interesting study, despite how it's been panned.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, hi.
	You're on the air.
	Is this on?
	Yes, and you're on the air.
	All right.
	Your voice does sound different, like always.
	So do they say.
	All right.
	Good to hear from you.
	Turn your radio off, sir.
	And actually, I'm hearing from you.
	It's off.
	I'm on a handheld phone.
	I can tell.
	It's not the best one.
	Anyway, sir, go ahead.
	Well, I'm a big cat lover, too, and I really like those pictures you put up of Yeti every now and then.
	Yes.
	But do you still have the deal where some of the listeners have sent their cat photos in?
	Yeah, we had a section that we called the Cat Box, and I've been trying to encourage Keith Rowland, my webmaster, To reinstitute it, so we're going to do that.
	I mean, there are a million good cat pictures out there, and so we're going to get it back.
	Oh, I know.
	You know, I have a cat, and you know, they say that cats are not very smart.
	Well, they're full of crap, whatever they are.
	One of my cats can say a word in sign language, and he says, tuna.
	And what he does, I've taught him to raise his paw and shake his paw.
	And that means tuna?
	And that means tuna.
	Because I can show him a can of tuna fish, and I can say, say tuna, Tigger.
	He'll raise his paw and just shake it.
	It's the cutest thing he's ever seen.
	You know what we're going to do one night, sir?
	We're going to have a night where animals talk on the program.
	That's right.
	Where your animal may talk.
	So I'll tell you why.
	You get your cat working on actually saying tuna, and we'll make your cat a star.
	Something like that anyway.
	I'm Art Bell.
	That she had the longest, blackest hair, the prettiest green eyes anywhere, and the reasoned name of the greatest flame.
	Though our smiles and tears inside were all burning, I wished I could walk again, but instead I'd be smiling.
	He was gone, but still his words kept returning.
	All over the world, this is Quote to Quote AM on the Premier Radio Networks.
	All over the world, this is Coat to Coat AM on the Premier Radio Networks.
	I've got a lot of love for Amy I've got a lot of love for you, love for Amy
	And if he finds me alive, can I get him?
	You and I, all of the way, this is my heart, it can't go away
	Wanna take a ride?
	Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	at 1-800-825-5033. First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
	The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295. And to recharge on the toll free
	international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-825-5033.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	Those are the magic numbers.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Open lines through the top of the hour and then Richard C. Hoagland.
	I'm Art Bell from the network that absolutely owns the nights.
	All right, back into the great stem cell pool out there and open lines.
	First time calling a line, you're on the air.
	Good evening or morning or something.
	Good evening or morning, I suppose.
	As I said, I I just came across your show, and it's rather amazing.
	Where are you?
	Washington, D.C.
	Really?
	WRC.
	And this used to be 1260.
	It's what it is, 1260.
	It used to be a jazz station.
	Yeah, I know.
	We bounced all over the dial in Washington, D.C.
	Yeah.
	But finally, we appear to be settling down in not one but two places with the addition of WTNT.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, and of course this particular one, WWRC, is very well received all over the area.
	Oh, indeed so.
	So you will be successful with that, and as a matter of fact, I was very amazed to hear that you've been on for years.
	And it seems like I've wasted a lot of my lifetime without ever hearing you before.
	This is why we have archives.
	If you have a computer, you can dig back.
	I see.
	Well, anyway, in spite of that, I did catch a couple of your shows, or three, and they are very captivating, and of course it's kind of tough for people who have to be up at six o'clock in the morning.
	Oh, I know.
	To get your three and four o'clock in the morning.
	Especially back near the nation's capital.
	Gee, I don't even come on until about one o'clock in the morning there.
	That's right, exactly.
	And then you get really interesting around three or four, and then of course, that's the end of that.
	Well, my advice is, if anything else... Taping?
	That's absolutely right, taping.
	Yeah.
	Well, as a matter of fact, I did get to tape a part of your Dr. Day Show.
	Oh, yes.
	And she is something else.
	She is something else.
	And very well known among the doctors.
	Yes.
	And everybody says she's got a point, but they don't want to be quoted on it.
	Well, that's right.
	If you go to most doctors and you talk to them about what she did, for example, to cure her own cancer, almost all of them will absolutely agree.
	But, boy, will they say that officially?
	No, of course not.
	But you can't argue with the fact that she did and how she did it.
	That's all there is to it.
	You're absolutely right.
	There's no argument about it.
	She did it.
	Thank you very much.
	Not one, but with two affiliates in our nation's capital.
	That's good, though.
	Ronald Cardline, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Good morning, how are you?
	I am just spiffy, sir.
	Well, I'm calling from Galveston, right on the beach.
	Ah, yes.
	740 KTRH.
	Right.
	And my question is, have you heard anything back from the guy who found the big metal cylindrical object in the mountains?
	Metal cylindrical object in the mountains.
	I think it was either Ohio or Kentucky.
	Boy, I hate to say this, but you stumped me.
	You had a show on about right before you went on vacation that was about a guy who discovered, he was the one who was doing the excavation of the mountains and found something in the mountains.
	Could that have been somebody who was a sub-host while I was gone?
	It could have been.
	That would account for my not recalling it.
	A cylindrical metal object?
	They found a big cylindrical metal object in a mountain somewhere in Kentucky or Ohio and they believe it to either be a buried UFO or an undiscovered missile silo.
	In the movies, I know they take metal objects like that and open them up, and something inevitably crawls out, usually between midnight and about 3 a.m., and eats the people in the lab, and then gets into the woods and starts eating the locals.
	Yes, movies are always like that, aren't they?
	Yes.
	And the other thing that I had to say was that all this weather stuff that's going on here lately, if you look in Revelations or in the Bible even, it says that There will be no more water but fire next time.
	Do you think this represents the beginning of the end, the apocalypse?
	Not really.
	It's the beginning of the opening of the seals.
	And that is the beginning of the end of the apocalypse.
	So somebody opened the weather seal.
	Basically, yeah.
	If you look at the way things are going, pieces being taken from the earth.
	The bug thing up there we were talking about.
	Sure.
	Bugs coming down and killing the crops.
	That will go right along hand-in-hand with the change in weather.
	Yes, it would.
	I hear you have an advisor in the background.
	That's my wife.
	I see.
	She's always advising me on things.
	Well, thank you both very much.
	Don't ask me how I knew, but I knew years ago the weather was about to dramatically and profoundly change.
	I simply knew it.
	It's one of those knowing things.
	I knew it was going to change.
	We are now in the middle of that change.
	Houston to the Rockies.
	You're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	This is Mike from Cleveland.
	Hello, Mike.
	I've got a question about stem cell research.
	Are we going too far in our scientific endeavors?
	Mike, I'm almost convinced that there is no such thing as too far, and you're not going to stop science.
	You're just not going to stop science.
	And science has proven to us, given every opportunity, that even if it's chancy, even if it's a button they might push or something they might do, I don't know.
	Education is not exactly a complete thing.
	Their egos are bigger than whatever perceived danger they've got, and they will plunge ahead
	and do it.
	You've got the education and the willpower to do so.
	Well, I don't know.
	Education is not exactly a complete thing.
	When you come out of academia, you've got a certain level of knowledge, but you don't
	have the experience and wisdom to balance that with.
	Oh, yeah.
	So, if there's a button to push, my friend, they will push it.
	If there's a vial to open, they will open it.
	And we can, I guess, argue about the advisability of doing stem cell research, or any other sort of on-the-edge research, all we want, but they are going to move ahead, whether or not we like it.
	West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Art.
	Hi there.
	Hi, this is Tammy.
	Tammy.
	Tammy in Bellingham, Washington.
	Yes, Tammy.
	I just want you to know that my family in Canada, six and a half years ago, told me about your show.
	And since I'm a nighttime person anyway, I was flipping through the channels and I got to hearing your show and I really like your show and my family in Canada, we really like your show, they really like your show too.
	Well, I'm not sure even what my show is.
	It's a mishmash of all kinds of things.
	It kind of blurs science and science fiction and moves back and forth and can be anything at any time, which is something that people learn after a while.
	When they first hear the program, they're kind of confused by what we're doing.
	But getting to know you on the show, it's like I know you, you know, I know you, but I don't know you.
	And Ramona, hello Ramona, I wanted to say hello to her too.
	Well, if she wants to step in here and yell hello, she can do that.
	Anyway, I just got to know you a little bit, and you're really honest, and a lot of us callers really appreciate you being so honest.
	Well, I try.
	And you're really courageous.
	I like how courageous you are.
	And I don't know really, we don't know very much about your wife, but she must be very
	honest and courageous as well.
	I'll tell you what I'll do.
	Since she didn't step in, she may be occupied with something else, but I've done it in the past.
	One of these nights, I will put her on the air and let her tell you about herself.
	That would be really nice.
	Also, I want to say, yes, thank you for talking about the weather changes, and thank you for keeping us listeners.
	Okay, here's what I would say in furtherance about the weather, and I've said this many times.
	Let's say it again.
	The weather is changing.
	The change is already underway.
	It's going to be a profound change, and we should not argue about whether it's occurring any longer, because even the experts now agree it is occurring.
	What we should do is begin to plan for it.
	So that whatever is going to occur, we can make it through to the other side.
	In other words, if the farm belt begins to fail, we need to begin making alternative plans right now.
	And maybe, unlike other civilizations that have come and gone and have been decimated by weather changes, short, fast weather changes that we appear to be on the edge of right now, our civilization has a chance of making it through All we need to do is to begin the plan.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hello, Art.
	How are you?
	I'm all right, sir.
	Where are you?
	My name's Dale, and I'm in Illinois.
	I'm a truck driver.
	I'm rolling through the night toward Mason City, Iowa.
	Yes, sir.
	And my question for you, Art, is I'm sure you're aware of this coming, they're coming out with this digital satellite radio for cars and stuff?
	I am aware of it, yes.
	Is there any chance your program's going to be available through that?
	Yes, there's a good chance.
	That answers my question, because I'm going to buy that just specifically.
	I'm going to subscribe specifically so I can pull you in wherever I'm at.
	Well, I imagine it's going to be something like that is going to, I think, mainly people like yourself, you know, long-haul truck drivers.
	And I can absolutely understand why you would want it.
	Well, I tell you, Art, the way these trucks are built with so much fiberglass in the cabs and stuff anymore, it's really tough to get anything on AM radio.
	It's true.
	There's no ground plane.
	You're exactly right.
	There's no ground plane.
	And there are ways around that.
	The Sea Crane Company manufactures a really, really good antenna.
	One of the drawbacks of any AM antenna is that it's short.
	AM radio really requires a very long antenna.
	And it's very short.
	Even a car antenna is very short.
	And so if you have a coil there that electrically makes it longer, you're going to hear a lot more.
	And they've got one like that.
	You might want to check into it.
	I'll do that.
	All right, sir.
	Thank you, sir.
	Thank you, and take care.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Yes.
	Hi, Art.
	Hello.
	Where are you?
	I'm Laura from Miami.
	All right, Nora.
	Laura.
	Laura.
	Yeah, Laura.
	Sorry about that, Laura.
	OK.
	That's OK.
	Um, I knew you liked reality TV.
	Have you watched Fear Factor?
	Someone just asked me that a few minutes ago.
	Yes.
	Oh, jeez.
	I'm sorry.
	I must have been out of the room.
	Oh, yes, indeed, Laura.
	What about Murder in Small Town X?
	That I have not seen.
	That's on Fox on... Let me see.
	What is it?
	Tuesdays at 9 o'clock.
	Reality TV?
	Yeah, reality TV.
	Oh, no kidding.
	I'll have to check it out.
	Yeah, that's cool.
	I kind of like Fear Factor.
	Yeah, did you see the episode where they had to eat boiled buffalo testicles?
	Yes, I did.
	That was gross.
	And both gals, I think, bailed out, right?
	Yes.
	Oh, absolutely.
	You know, it looked gross.
	I don't think... I mean, $50,000 is a lot of money, but it's not that much.
	Right, absolutely.
	Oh, and I have a cat, too, named Chi-Chi.
	Chi-Chi?
	Yeah, Chi-Chi.
	She's so cute.
	Yeah, cats are cute.
	Some fella called earlier and said, well, a lot of people say cats are dumb.
	Oh, no.
	They're smart.
	Cats are far smarter than other animals.
	Right.
	Well, my dog's pretty smart, too.
	She's a nice girl.
	It's just that the owner has to be smart enough to see the subtle brilliance of felines.
	Yeah.
	I appreciate the call.
	Thank you.
	And that's what they do have.
	They have a kind of a subtle brilliance and if you don't recognize subtle brilliance
	then I suppose they seem dumb to you but you've got to look for the small
	things if you look carefully in a smart cat's eyes the intellect is unmistakable.
	East of the Rockies you're on the air good morning. Hi, it's Dave Kaufman,
	Scranton, Pennsylvania.
	Hi Dave.
	What happened to the guy from the day you had your tooth pulled out?
	You were going to have someone from Oregon to report?
	Oh, yes.
	Well, he has simply been moved and he will be on Monday.
	Monday?
	Yeah, his book is very interesting.
	I ordered his book from Amazon.
	Yeah, he'll be on Monday, this coming Monday.
	How'd you make out with your tooth?
	You didn't mention it.
	Well, I... I know you don't want to talk about your illness.
	I understand that, but I didn't hear you.
	Well, it was under, you see, it was this I had, about 1995 or 6, I had this root canal done so they could put a bridge on, and they put the bridge on, and they put it on with super-duper glue or whatever, so the bridge didn't come off, so they had to drill down through the bridge into the tooth, and it turns out that, lucky me, most normal people have two roots, right?
	Right.
	Well, in that tooth, there were two roots with two branches, so I had four roots. And when they originally did the root canal,
	they only did a root canal on two roots. So the other two roots decided that they would
	do what roots do, and so they had to drill down through anyway. Lucky you. Lucky me. I
	sent you a link also about vampire researchers from Great Britain and how you can get in touch
	with them. I really would like to do a show on vampires. I sent you a link on it.
	There's a group of folks from the England area, Great Britain, England, the UK.
	And how to contact them.
	They have a whole website up there and they're really into that.
	They travel around the world and I sent you a link on how to contact them.
	Well, our British listeners and guests are going to be more accessible soon.
	Coming up next month, I think, we're going to be on London Broadcasting.
	We're going to have a full five hour show on London Broadcasting.
	It's going to be interesting to see what the British think of the program.
	I'll check into it.
	Vampires... I don't know.
	Are they myth?
	Or is there some reality at the base of the myth?
	Certainly some of it, or even a lot of it, is myth.
	But is all of it myth?
	I don't know.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
	Yes, sir.
	This is George from San Jose.
	Hi, George.
	Yes, I've sent you several emails in the past about OverUnity.
	Yes, sir.
	I don't know if you saw the one I sent you about the company that's coming out with the... Whatever you have on in the background, turn it off, please.
	TV.
	OverUnity.
	I have a real problem with overunity because I don't think it's possible, or at least I've not yet seen it demonstrated, even at the toy level.
	I don't want to hear talk about it.
	I don't want to see drawings.
	I want to see something that actually demonstrates Well, the people on the website that I sent you, along with the email, they show you demonstrating these two machines that they have.
	One is a generator and one is a motor.
	And it's really interesting.
	I mean, if you just look at the website.
	Oh, okay.
	I appreciate your call, sir.
	Bring me a working model.
	I mean, let me just lay it out for everybody, alright?
	I'm sorry.
	I don't believe it.
	Overunity just is not possible.
	Now, I nevertheless remain open-minded.
	Not to talk, and not to drawings, and not to schematics, but to a device.
	And if you really have such a device, then I've got over 500 radio stations, and I'm not afraid of a damn soul.
	So if you bring this device to me, and it really is overunity, I would be glad to give you five hours Four, if it's real soon.
	Five hours, though, beginning next week, of a national forum to blast your news to the entire country, in fact, to the world, and to all of the oil companies and all of the big concerns.
	It would go berserk.
	I really could care less.
	If you've got it, and if you've really got the goods, then either ship it to me or bring it to me under armed guard.
	I would be glad to check into it, and then I will give you the biggest national forum you ever saw.
	And you can tell everybody about it.
	That's my offer.
	It's a simple one.
	There's no money involved.
	All you've got to do is get your magical OverUnity device to me, and I will put you here on the radio, and that will lead to other large media appearances, and you will get your device in front of the world.
	That's the standing offer.
	But don't send me talk.
	Don't send me schematics.
	Don't send me pictures.
	Don't send me claims, just either send or bring a device to me that actually achieves what you say it does.
	You need not leave it here.
	And I will make the appropriate measurements, or if I'm not good enough scientifically to do it, I will have others step in who are.
	And I will give you the national form that will let you just tell the whole world about it.
	Now that's the best offer I can think of.
	It really is the best offer I can think of.
	So there it is, out on the table, and we need not have any more talk about all of this.
	If you've got the goods, you get them here, I'll get it on the air, you'll be a billionaire.
	Maybe just a few months, but you'll be a billionaire.
	So that should be there.
	Let's stop the talk and do the walk.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM, where, if you'll stay tuned, Richard C. Hoagland is coming up next.
	We're going to talk a lot about Mars.
	Music playing.
	Once to NASA, now revered in the halls with, oh you can't turn a corner in a hall at NASA
	without seeing a bust of Richard C. Ogun.
	A science advisor wants to Walter C. Cronkite, an Angstrom Science Award winner, and for years a very important science adjunct to this program, here tonight saying, well, he said to me on the phone, he solved the mystery of Mars.
	That's quite a claim.
	Richard, welcome.
	Good evening, Art.
	Good evening.
	How are you feeling?
	Just spiffy, Richard.
	Yeah, we actually probably have solved a lot of things, and what I want to do tonight is to set up a mystery, and as we go from half hour to half hour, unfold segments of it, and then maybe halfway through, because I know we're going to do an abbreviated show tonight, We'll give everybody the bottom line, but it's really pretty cool.
	Can you review the recent news headlines with respect to Mars, the gas and the life in the gas?
	These feed directly into the mystery.
	For a lot of people, they may not know why Mars is a mystery, so maybe we should start there.
	Maybe we should quickly give people a thumbnail sketch.
	Why is Mars a mystery?
	Because it's Earth, but it's not.
	I mean, for literally centuries, we have looked at it with the eye, and the night sky is this reddish thing.
	By the way, I want to talk about your telescope in a little while, because obviously you have now joined the pleasured ranks of those of us who actually look through real glass, and at real mirrors, not at images and JPEGs and all that stuff.
	It really is something else.
	Totally another world?
	Yeah, it's a blow away.
	I mean, I'm sitting here looking out the bridge windows of Enterprise at this gorgeous, almost last quarter moon, rising over my desert.
	And it's just, it's just breathtaking.
	And for people who live in cities, you know, the only way you're going to get to see the sky now is to get a telescope.
	And this one sounds like it's a pretty cool deal.
	Yeah, it is.
	And I am not being paid to say this, okay?
	But I'm just so thrilled that you have joined the ranks of those of us for years who have
	frozen our buns off in the middle of the winter to go out and look at Orion and other things.
	And there are all kinds of neat mysteries.
	And we will probably not have time tonight, but at some point I need to introduce you
	to how to marry some of your gadgets to your telescope.
	Yeah, I really want to do that.
	There is a whole body of knowledge and even websites of people who have taken camcorders
	and webcams.
	Well, yeah, I've got all that stuff.
	I've even got night vision.
	I mean, I've got more stuff that I could marry if I could marry it, and I know there is a way.
	It's so simple.
	There are people, for instance, there is a guy in Boston who works at the Planetarium, which was the kind of competitor to the Planetarium I worked at when I was in New England in Springfield.
	And he has published in Sky & Telescope several articles, I guess he's got a book now and he's got a website, for how to shoot with a really relatively small telescope, amazing views, not just of You know, the big celestial objects, moon, planets, stuff like that.
	But he captures things like the space station and the shuttle and produces recognizable images through this shimmering sea there we call the atmosphere.
	Well, it's following the space station, for example, which is very bright and very easy to see.
	It comes roaring over us here.
	And it's bright.
	It's as bright almost as Venus.
	And if you take a very strong pair of binoculars, you can even see the solar panels on it.
	You can see the shape.
	And so it's very exciting.
	My only problem, Richard, I mean, my advantage is I've got this webcam, so if I can get something married, I can put the shots up on the web and just let it continue to scroll.
	So I'm all for that.
	Listen, back to Mars.
	Why is Mars a mystery?
	Well, because when you start looking at it with the eye and then with a telescope, like for instance Percival Lowell did at the turn of the century, he thought he saw this faint webbing of artificial lines that indicated there was somebody home, somebody building something, somebody digging something.
	The famous canals.
	Canals, yeah.
	Which were actually discovered in 1877 by an Italian astronomer named Schiaparelli.
	Well, for 30, 40 years, up until the first couple of decades of this century, a little longer, everybody was intensely debating the canals on Mars, like they have debated now Cydonia and the face and all that, because it looked as if, with the technology we had, pretty good telescopes, that somebody might be doing massive global engineering.
	Well, that was the debate when I was a child, Richard.
	They were talking about the canals, and about half the scientists were saying, These are engineered canals for the moving of water on Mars.
	That's what everybody thought when I was a child.
	From the polar caps, yeah.
	Right.
	And the other half thought those first half were crazy.
	Right.
	Which is kind of the way the whole space on Mars thing is now divided.
	Half the folks think they're there and, you know, somebody built them, or built it, and there's an ancient civilization in ruins, and the other half thinks that us, us half, you know, because obviously in that camp, are totally out to lunch.
	Well, as this debate has evolved, we suddenly entered the space age.
	This was now in 1957.
	And in the early mid-60s, in 1965, we, the United States, the world, because we represented the world at that time because the Russians had not been able to achieve this, we sent our first unmanned spacecraft to Mars called Mariner 4.
	And in July of 1965, on July 14th, Bastille Night, I created and orchestrated and conducted and hosted a five-hour show, Art, which was nominated for a Peabody, a radio show which involved people from JPL and people from Harvard and people like Alan Hynek in an auditorium that I had set up in Springfield, Massachusetts to celebrate and to inquire over the flyby of Mars by this first little unmanned spacecraft, Mariner 4.
	And it was that spacecraft which basically killed the Martian legend.
	It basically drove the spike into the whole Lowell idea of, you know, valiant Martians digging canals, preserving their dying civilization, etc., because it gave us the cratered Mars.
	It gave us the Mars which has basically no atmosphere.
	There's no air there.
	It's 1,100th of the air we're breathing.
	And it's the wrong kind of air.
	It's CO2 as opposed to oxygen.
	And it gave us this battered, ancient, cratered, lunar-type landscape that basically, in one fell swoop, killed all of the romance and the visions and the fantasies and the projections of literally dozens of generations of people who had come before, because it showed us that Mars, if it ever had been alive, it was now dead.
	It's dead, Jim, and it really seemed dead.
	And then in 71, when we sent our first spacecraft to orbit, called Mariner 9, the Martian legend kind of did a revival, it did a renaissance.
	Because that spacecraft, which went into orbit, as opposed to just flying by in a few hours, it photographed over the next couple, three years, the whole planet.
	At pretty good resolution.
	And it showed us that Mars was this amazing place that had Incredible towering mountains, vast waters that looked like they had carved riverbeds and canyons.
	It had polar caps.
	It had water.
	It had definite water ice.
	It had all the essences of potential life that had long gone, that maybe once it had been alive, it had been like the Earth.
	But in the ensuing billions of years of solar system history, it had taken the divergent path, and it had died, and we had not, and then everyone said, well, now we can do comparative planetology.
	We can take a look at Mars and see, you know, how planets die.
	And that was the condition that existed, that kind of, well, there was something there a long time ago, but nothing now, until Viking.
	Viking was 76, and I, of course, was one of the privileged few to actually be at JPL the night week, Landed the first Viking spacecraft, and I was sitting there at literally dawn, it was 5 o'clock in the morning Pacific time, as we're landing on another planet for the first time, and those first pictures come in, and on my right is Gene Roddenberry, my dear friend who created Star Trek, and on my left is Eric Burgess, who along with Arthur Clarke and others formed the British Interplanetary Society, and Eric actually wrote the first paper on unmanned probes to Mars, way back in the 1930s.
	And there were like a thousand plus other people, newsmen and space groupies and scientists, and I mean, it was just one of those incredible moments when everybody was looking at the dream fulfilled.
	At that incredible moment, what were the expectations?
	We didn't know.
	I mean, we really didn't know what we would see when those first pictures came in.
	We knew we had a cold and kind of desolate place, but there was hope.
	I mean, Sagan, for instance, who was there, Had insisted that the cameras have a function that allowed them to record movement, because his greatest fear was that we would land during the day, we'd look out at, let's say, a desolate Arizona, New Mexico kind of landscape, and at night, you know, there'd be rumblings and shufflings and the IMUs, the little gyroscopes and accelerometers in the spacecraft would kind of detect footsteps.
	Right.
	But there'd be no lights and there'd be no way to catch whoever was coming up and sniffing around the lander to see if anybody was home.
	So there was a feature built into the camera where you could basically take a series of still images and then play them back to detect motion.
	Sure.
	Like a motion detector.
	Sure.
	My first picture came in, it was of the footbed.
	Which, I mean, I had argued myself with the engineers, why the hell do you go all the way to Mars, sit down, and take your first picture looking down at the ground.
	I think I understand that one.
	So that you can calibrate and understand the resolution your camera has arrived with.
	That plus they wanted to see that there was some possibility that the spacecraft could
	sink into deep sand dunes.
	And we got this vision that they have this picture of the last few instances of picture
	showing the foot pads of the spacecraft being swallowed by dust and sand.
	So, in other words, they see where the foot is, they get to look at the foot, and they test the resolution, and they look at something recognizable.
	Exactly.
	Sure.
	Makes sense, yeah.
	The second panorama, a few minutes later, because this thing did not take pictures like, you know, digital pictures now, full frame.
	Right.
	It wiped them on vertically, line by line.
	Right, it's called slow scan.
	Slow scan.
	And it went from left to right.
	And we literally sat there, 1500 of us, holding our breath, watching this picture of Mars come in line by line by line.
	And it was, well, the really neat thing was when the whole thing had finished, Roddenberry, sitting to my right, leaps up and yells, Cut!
	Print!
	And I said, I don't know that man.
	He's not my friend.
	I don't know him.
	No, it was just an incredible, joyous moment, because we finally were seeing the real Mars, and the real Mars looked like New Mexico!
	And a few hours later, it calibrated, so they got... Actually, that's very good, Richard.
	You know, it does look like New Mexico.
	It does!
	Particularly, well, in places like Sedona, which is northern Arizona, which has red rocks.
	I mean, I've always had this quiet suspicion, you know, as our work has progressed, and we've figured out that maybe we're from Mars, that The reason a lot of people like to hang out in Northern Arizona is because they're really secret Martians and they like the landscape.
	Well, you know, maybe we're from Mars.
	Did you happen to hear my program last night?
	Yes.
	It was represented to me that there are ice, there are clumps of ice, clumps of essentially water by the time it gets to the atmosphere, that just bombards every planet, literally everything, This is Louis Frank's idea.
	With the seeds of life, or potential life, with the ingredients of life.
	There are two things going on here.
	One is Louis Frank's idea.
	He's at the University of Iowa, by the way.
	He's not in California, as Stephen said.
	I've known Stephen Schwartz for a very long time, and he's very good at some things, but his memory for details sometimes.
	So Louis Frank is at the University of Iowa, and he propounded this very controversial model that the solar system is filled with mini-comets, and they are bombarding not only the Earth, but other planets.
	There are huge problems with that model, and we don't have time to get into them tonight, but there's a possible way to salvage the model, if they're not solid chunks, but dust clouds of ice crystals, so they have no mass, but they have enough water to feed the second theory, which is a report from a British astrophysicist, actually he's Indian, named Wick Rama Singh.
	I just love saying his name.
	He's a friend of Fred Hoyle's, who was a very Brilliant British astrophysicist who propounded the steady state model of the universe back in the 50s and 60s.
	And Wickramasinghe and Hoyle together have worked for years on the idea of panspermia, that life exists in interplanetary space between the planets, even interstellar space, and that from time to time we are bombarded by comets or cometary stuff that seeds the Earth with viruses and other You know, small life forms.
	Sure.
	That, in fact, life-owners began because it was seeded from outer space.
	And he, at a conference in England recently, in the last couple, three days, stood up and pointed to an experiment that I guess he was involved in, involving a stratospheric balloon that was lofted up to like 40, 45 miles, something like that.
	At such an altitude where there should not be any living organisms.
	Anything from the ground.
	From the ground.
	Not get up above the... Is that a reasonable tenant?
	It is a very reasonable tenant.
	All right, so he got up there above the life zone, we'll call it.
	Yep, because the air currents simply don't propel anything up that high.
	And he found?
	He found little microbes.
	Son of a gun.
	And they look weird, and they look alien, and they look definitely non-terrestrial.
	And if this is confirmed, it would be the first detection of living, breathing little guys.
	Would it confirm the theory?
	It would confirm the theory that there's something floating around the solar system that we have not been aware of.
	That potentially could seed life.
	Now, obviously, if the planet in question would not harbor life or be conducive to life, then they could crash in all they wanted.
	There wouldn't be any life.
	Exactly.
	You have to have a fertile petri dish.
	Right.
	So, this is pretty interesting news.
	We'll have to stay tuned and see whether it's corroborated.
	He's had a lot of flack from some folks, but some support from other folks.
	You know, we'll just watch this play out.
	What is the argument, Richard?
	Do some argue, yes, somehow, something could make it up there?
	Yeah, that's the idea.
	That he's just not recognizing that there are unusual events.
	For instance, when volcanoes, big ones... But Richard, if that were so, they would be recognizable bacterium, wouldn't they?
	Well, it depends on how long they've been up there.
	For instance, we know now that microbes can live in all kinds of exotic environments.
	In fact, there's a whole term coined for little guys that can live in extreme places.
	And in fact, the radiation levels at that altitude would perhaps reshape them a bit, eh?
	That's right.
	These are called extremophiles, and we find them You know, 20,000 feet down in the bottom of the ocean in this so-called Black Smokers.
	You find them in the hot springs like Yellowstone.
	Black Smokers are volcanic vents.
	On the bottom of the ocean erupting iron sulfide.
	And this life gathers all around them.
	It's absolutely amazing at a depth where there ought to be nothing.
	And there's life because there's no, well, there's no light down there so you'd think there'd be no life but it turns out that they have a of a life chain, a metabolic chain, based on metabolizing
	things like hydrogen sulfide bacteria.
	So you have even complicated guys like clams and tube worms and relatively sophisticated
	life forms living off this interior energy of the Earth.
	It's basically geothermal energy.
	So if it could happen here, it could happen on another planet with similar volcanic energy.
	That's right, like the oceans of Europa, which is one of our ideas.
	All right.
	Take a good breath, a half hour mark.
	Gather yourself, take a good deep breath, and we'll be right back.
	All right.
	We're talking about Mars.
	Actually, Mars is a planet that's been around for a long time.
	It's solving the mystery of Mars to some degree tonight.
	Richard C. Hoagland is my guest.
	Don't touch that dot.
	You know you don't gotta be mad.
	You don't gotta be mad.
	You know you don't gotta be mad.
	Must have made you, you wanted to lose.
	And you know it don't come easy.
	You don't have to shout or think about it, you can even play me.
	I'm a street, I'm a dog, and you're a man.
	It's just so much of this love of mine that I don't understand.
	You shouldn't worry out there, that ain't no crime.
	Cause if you get it wrong, you'll get it right next time.
	Wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
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	To talk with Art on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	What good is Mars?
	Guess you might want to ask yourself that question.
	What good is Mars?
	Well, maybe a day when we need it.
	Because didn't we just decide a little while ago that planets can die?
	Wait a minute.
	Planets can die?
	So that means, one day, our planet could die.
	Like Mars died.
	We might need it.
	That is so cool.
	Not one thunderclap, but two.
	I just realized I could do that.
	I did it actually by mistake.
	That's the way most of these things get started, right?
	I realized I could do it by mistake, and now I realize I can do it on purpose.
	Check this out.
	One more time.
	A big dual thunderclap.
	Watch this.
	Oh, that's really cool.
	All right.
	Back now to Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard, you're back on the air again.
	Sounds like New Mexico!
	I know, you've been getting a lot of that lately, haven't you?
	Yes, it's gorgeous.
	One of the things I missed when I lived in San Francisco was that we never had thunderstorms.
	One night, very late, many, many years ago, a front rolled through across the Pacific and we had thunderstorms and everybody got up.
	The whole city, Berkeley, Oakland, everybody waked everybody, they called everybody, and there was a huge all-night block party.
	I don't have block parties here, Richard.
	We have it occasionally.
	This is the month when we get it.
	When you have a 100-foot tower in your backyard during a big thunderstorm, you don't go observe the beach.
	Well, you do, but you sit out there and mostly pray.
	Please don't hit my tower.
	Please.
	I know the feeling.
	Remember, I'm 8,000 feet, and I have electronic gadgets like you do.
	Yes.
	And you don't want something to hit.
	Actually, when it strikes close, the EMP is very impressive.
	I know.
	It's very impressive.
	So, we were talking about life and possible life on Mars, and this Wikrama-thing thing, you know, the little bacteria in the stratosphere?
	Yes.
	And the Louis Frank thing, the possible little mini-comets, in fact, is tied in to the potential solution to the mystery of Mars.
	So we're going to come back to this, folks.
	You've got to stay tuned, because later in the evening we're going to tie these two things, which I did not know were connected, back to what we think we have now discovered.
	All right.
	We're also going to have some very interesting photographs for you, probably just after the top of the hour on my website, so stay tuned for that.
	Stay by your computer.
	We'll tell you when we're ready.
	I remember when we could do radio and not have to worry about the pictures.
	Well, look, there's nothing like pictures to punctuate whatever you're saying, Richard.
	No, no, no.
	I'm obviously tongue-in-cheek here, because we have developed, through your show, this incredible combined medium.
	Remember, we did the first Internet radio simulcast?
	I remember.
	They absolutely should be combined, and I will continue to combine them as long as I'm here, increasing that every time I get an opportunity.
	Then there's this gas thing on Mars.
	I want to understand that controversy, Richard.
	Well, this segues nicely, because as I said, in 1976, there I was at the JPL with Gene on my right, Eric on my left, and 1,500 friends, watching Viking land.
	Now, Viking was built by NASA as the search for life on Mars, for a good reason.
	The idea was you'd land this VW-sized spacecraft by remote control, because it's eight minutes away by the speed of light, So there was no hands-on, Ma.
	We literally were getting our data eight minutes after everything had happened.
	So it either happened or it didn't, and there was not a damn thing anybody could do about it.
	So we get the pictures, and then a couple days after, the little hoppers in the top of the spacecraft opened up, and an arm reached out, a kind of a remote robotic arm, and the computer, under pre-stored ground commands from JPL, Picked up the soil sample, brought it back, and then dumped the soil in the containers on the top of the spacecraft.
	Kind of equilibrating, you know, between the first and the second and the third experiment.
	So everybody got their samples, and then the instruments went to work.
	Now, what NASA had done is to go to TRW, which is a major aerospace company in Southern California, and they had built into about a cubic foot of space Cubic foot is about what?
	The size of your monitor, maybe?
	Right.
	They had built an incredible, complex, remote-controlled biochemistry laboratory.
	One cubic foot.
	And sent it 40, 50 million miles away to Mars and set it down on the surface.
	And the idea was that this laboratory would sniff and sample and examine the stuff going on in the three chambers and report from three different experiments Whether there were any microbes in the soil.
	Let me represent the average person now.
	That was a long time ago, Richard, and as far as I knew from then, there wasn't much to be announced.
	And now, all of a sudden, now, in 2001, we're getting some sort of announcement about something they found then.
	I just don't get it.
	I love the way you mention the number 2001.
	Because there's a lot of things happening this year that I think it's kind of time that they happen.
	Well, okay, but to answer my question, I mean, why are we hearing about this just now?
	Is it some... Well, according to the story, when... I mean, I was there, so I can tell you what happened at the other end of this pipeline 25 years ago.
	The three experiments did their thing.
	And all of them reported positive results, Art.
	Every experiment that NASA did in this gadget said there's life on Mars.
	And those of us who were watching were absolutely dumbfounded because the experiments had been designed to look for opposite kinds of chemistry, and you couldn't have a positive registering life if there was opposite stuff going on in the soil.
	In other words, it was like having a yes and a no answer simultaneously.
	And then there was a fourth experiment called the GCMS, which was basically designed to measure organics, to measure the dead bodies.
	On Earth, when we have life going on, we have hydrocarbons involved.
	Hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, things like that.
	And there's organic residues left over.
	Dead bodies.
	This gadget was designed to sniff the soil down to the parts per billion level, that's what it'd be, and detect the residue of life.
	The dead bodies.
	Well, it didn't detect any dead bodies.
	It didn't detect any organic chemistry at all.
	And so NASA officially said that the three experiments which had Quote, positively detected life?
	Couldn't.
	In fact, it was what they called funny chemistry, having to do with a very weird surface, a highly oxidized, a super oxidized surface of Mars, given its peculiar history and environment, and in fact, it was only chemistry, it wasn't life, and everybody would go home and nobody got excited.
	Well, one guy wouldn't go home.
	His name is Gil Levin, Dr. Gilbert Levin.
	I think I've discussed him a couple times on your show briefly.
	You have, yes.
	And he ran a company called Biospherics, Inc., and he and his co-investigator have insisted for 25 years that their experiment, in fact, did detect microbial life in the soils of Mars, and NASA simply changed the rules in mid-game.
	Why?
	Well, that's a huge political discussion, and I don't want to kind of get off in the politics tonight.
	But what he has been doing is he has been pursuing every possible loophole to try to counter the official NASA position that we didn't discover life, or his experiment didn't discover life.
	Now, his experiment was called the Labeled Release Experiment, and the theory was as follows.
	You basically put the soil in the chamber, and in his gadget, his little vial, you then dropped in a little nutrient.
	Which was called, affectionately, chicken soup.
	It was actually a complex organic compound.
	And the idea was that the little beasties, the little microbes in the soil, if they were there, if they were alive, they would glom onto the chicken soup, they would eat it, and they would then respire, I mean, they would outgas, exhale carbon dioxide, like microbes do here on Earth.
	Right.
	The difference was, this chicken soup was laced with radioactive carbon-14.
	So as they exhaled their carbon dioxide, the gas would float up to the top of the chamber and there was a little radiation detector up there that was supposed to measure the amount of radioactive carbon locked up as CO2.
	Everything worked as advertised.
	Instrumentally, engineeringly, this was an incredible tour de force.
	We did an incredible job in 1976 because everything worked.
	The only thing that didn't work was the interpretation, the scientific reception of what these gadgets were trying to tell us.
	Because what happened in all these experiments, but particularly in Levin's experiment, is that the label release thing worked, the gas came off, CO2, the radiation detector measured the carbon-14, which is how it knew how much gas was coming off, and over the next nine weeks, Art, nine weeks, that's two months plus one week, right?
	This thing continued to evolve.
	Now, they did controls.
	They then dumped it out, you know, flushed it out, put new soil in, started it up again, they got the same reaction, and then they raised the temperature to about 160 degrees centigrade.
	Like an oven.
	And that was supposed to kill the microbes, to sterilize them, and you would then see if you had any reactions after that, and the reactions went away.
	Poof.
	Gone.
	Bang.
	Flat.
	Dead.
	Mine.
	So then why didn't they announce, oh my god, life on Mars?
	They couldn't detect, in that fourth instrument, any organics.
	And they claimed that that was their control, and that if they couldn't detect the organic residues of little microbes, then there couldn't be microbes, and therefore there couldn't be life, and there had to be some kind of weird oxidizing chemistry.
	Well, Levin spent 25 years, a quarter of a century, almost as long as I've been pursuing the Cydonia thing, he and his team had been pursuing the idea that they did detect life, That NASA politically didn't want to admit it for whatever reasons, and he's been up against a very stiff uphill climb.
	In 1999, a guy named Joseph Miller, who's a neurobiologist and a circadian rhythm expert.
	You know what circadian rhythms are, right?
	Yes, I do.
	Well, for folks who don't, every biological organism appears to have an internal clock.
	And even when you isolate organisms, ranging from microbes, to bacteria, to mussels, to frogs, to us, in the dark, away from light and dark, there is this internal clock, which tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, and seems to somehow know the planet's rotation, the day of the planet you're on.
	So, this guy, Miller, somehow had a chance to look at Levin's data.
	25 years later, back in 1999.
	And he was struck by the fact that as the gas came out and was measured by the radioactive detector, it showed little peaks and valleys.
	Bing, bing, bing.
	Right.
	And they looked like they corresponded to the Martian day.
	So he said, oh my God, maybe.
	So he went to NASA and he said, get me all this Viking data.
	And they said, well, Dr. Miller, we kind of have a problem there.
	Because we lost it.
	We lost it?
	They lost it.
	And so they scurried around and they finally found it.
	He thought it was on one of the national websites, like everything is supposed to be out there somewhere.
	No.
	It wasn't.
	It wasn't anywhere to be found.
	Now, he's assuming a benign interpretation.
	You know me.
	I think there may be less benign, but let's not get sidetracked.
	He finally got some people to get him the original magnetic tapes, and lo and behold, they had been programmed In an arcane machine code that was so primitive compared to what we're using now that the programmers had died.
	There was no way to get the data off the tapes.
	So then he gets hold of Levin.
	Fortunately Levin had made paper copies of everything and was able to supply him with this and together over the last year or so, it's two years since 99, two and a half years, they have been working to restore this data and Miller has been subjecting it To the kind of controls and statistical analyses that his profession brings to it, neurobiology and circadian rhythm studies.
	Right.
	And last week in San Diego, at a major conference, he published a result which is pretty astounding.
	Because he claims that what Levin has found is evidence, unequivocal evidence, of biological activity in the soil which exhibits the circadian rhythm All right, Richard, again, on behalf of the normal person, why should we care whether there is microbial life on Mars right now or not?
	I mean, basically, it's a wasteland.
	If Mars once was alive, as we understand major life, it is not now.
	And if there is microbial life there, What difference is that going to make to us?
	Well, in the context of your discussion with Stephen last night, and in some of the things you were doing in the first hour, we should care because planets are not immortal.
	Planets can die.
	And if this incredible, vibrant living world right next door and something terrible happened, or a series of something terribles, and we could be inadvertently doing stuff to our world that would bring on the same catastrophe, we've got to know that.
	Because we've got to be able to take another road.
	We've got to be able to take the left fork and not the right fork.
	I see that, clearly.
	The other thing is that if there is life on Mars, then it presumably had a history.
	It had an origin, it had an evolution, and if it's there now, it exists in its current condition because of all the things that have happened to it.
	I think certainly it's fair to say if it once had the water on it that we think that it had, or even that we know that it had, Then there could have been big life there.
	There could have been complex life there.
	I mean, you're absolutely right.
	We need to know for that reason.
	In addition, there are a lot of people talking about the possibility of terraforming Mars in case we might need it.
	So, I can see all that.
	And of course, is there a heart that is so dead that it doesn't want to know if it's alone?
	Because as Carl was so fond of saying, if we find so much as a microbe next door on Mars, it means the galaxy, the universe, is teeming with life.
	And of course, it would back up with the science, the claims of all the UFO people that there are folks visiting, and claims like us that there might have been an ancient civilization there, and it would be an extraordinary, even to find a microbe.
	What you're going to hear tonight as we get through the rest of our mystery is that we're thinking now there's a lot bigger stuff than microbes and what's amazing is that what we think may have happened to Mars may have left only the microbes alive.
	Everything else that we think could have been there may now have been deceased.
	In other words, everything larger than a microbe It's gone.
	Deader than a doornail.
	Because of what happened to Mars, and what could happen to this planet.
	It comes back to, what do you do about your home?
	How do you protect life and limb and home?
	And so looking at Mars is not an academic exercise, it's a cautionary tale, and if you don't do this and this and this, maybe, for the grace of God, you'll go that way too.
	Well Richard, we do know there's a long history of probe failures.
	Incredible, statistically weird failures, yes.
	Is it so weird that there is some external force at work, whether it be earthly or otherwise, in your opinion?
	Well, as I said on the PAX show, my bet is that if there's any weird force, it's political.
	Its missions don't die, they're just kept from us, who are paying for them, because they find things that those guys don't want us to know, until the right time.
	Well, you know, going to Mars, or any other planet, is a chancy That's a good thing to do, and there are going to be failures, but there does seem to be a very disproportionately large number with regard to Mars.
	Compared to other places we have gone, which are a lot more hostile, like when you go toward Venus, toward the Sun, it gets hot.
	Electronics don't like hot, okay?
	They like cold better.
	When you go to the big planets like Jupiter, Saturn, they have huge radiation fields, and we've got a Galileo, which we're going to have to go out there and beat to death with a stick.
	It's just going and going and going.
	In fact, they're going to dive into the atmosphere in a couple of years to permanently get rid of it so it won't clutter up the radio channels and possibly collide with Europa.
	Actually, it's diving in with a bunch of plutonium, isn't it?
	Yes, just a little bit.
	Not a lot.
	It won't do anything.
	Don't even go there.
	That's not a real problem.
	The point is that technology in space works extraordinarily well.
	We've had pioneer spacecraft that were sent to Venus.
	Back in the 60s, they're still alive, 20, 30 years after they were launched?
	That's true.
	The fact is that going to Mars, which is a relatively benign place, it's right next door, it's just a little further from the sun than we are, the Russians, and even us lately, have had an extraordinary series of, quote, failures, boys and girls.
	It really should be the easiest place to go, short of the moon.
	That's right.
	And it's really the hardest.
	Richard, hold on, we're at the top of the hour.
	We will be right back.
	I've been drifting on the sea of heartbreak, trying to get myself ashore for so long.
	For so long Listen to the strangest stories
	Wondering where it all went wrong For so long
	For so long But hold on, hold on, hold on
	But hold on, hold on, hold on See what you got
	See what you got I'll break through the glass
	I'm a victim in his lies Hold on, girl, girl
	For so long so long
	He never makes her stay Hold on, girl, girl
	As she rises to her apology Anybody else would surely know
	He's watching her grow And he's loving who you be
	No time to be fighting, my love Wanna take a ride?
	Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	It certainly is.
	Good morning, everybody.
	We've got the visuals up now to go with the discussion we're about to have.
	Let me tell you how to get to them, all right?
	You go to artbell.com.
	And when you get there, you go to Program over on the left-hand side.
	Simply go to Tonight's Guest Info.
	Repeating, Tonight's Guest Info.
	There you will see the name Richard C. Hoagland.
	The first thing you'll see is Images, Mars Illustrations for tonight.
	Click on that.
	There are going to be nine illustrations there that we're going to be talking about.
	So if you start up to the web right now, you'll be able to follow along with us.
	Again, artbell.com.
	Go to Program, tonight's guest info, and right under the name Richard C. Hoagland, you'll see the images for tonight.
	Click on those and follow along with us.
	Richard C. will be right back.
	Stay right where you are.
	Alright, back now to Richard C. Hoagland.
	Figure number one, the first figure, is sort of an introductory photograph.
	I suppose it's a photograph of Mars.
	And boy, is it a good photograph of Mars!
	Richard, that's really a pretty picture of Mars.
	Isn't that gorgeous?
	Yeah, it's gorgeous.
	Well, it's not a photo, it's a piece of art.
	Oh, well that's why.
	And it's a piece of art as Mars may have looked many, many, many hundreds of millions or even billions of years ago.
	Yeah, I thought it looked a little blue.
	It's very blue, and there's water running down Valles Marineris.
	Yes.
	There's an ocean on the left.
	Yes.
	Toward Olympus Mons.
	There's blue sky, there's Rayleigh scattering, there are clouds.
	It's warm, it's wet, and this is part of the mystery.
	What we're going to talk about for the next couple hours is the work that I and Mike Barra have been doing for about a year, quietly, with a number of other colleagues, to try to put together all the pieces of the puzzle ever since 1971, since the first Mariner 9 images that told us we had a place that was maybe like the Earth once and was nowhere like the Earth now.
	I mean, the temperatures on Mars are extraordinarily cold now.
	Oh, can I ask about one more thing?
	Sure.
	The recent storms on Mars... The dust storms.
	Yeah, the dust storms.
	You know, I've heard from varying sources that dust storms of the magnitude they're having actually shouldn't be possible.
	That's one theory.
	Um, it's an interesting theory.
	I mean, we know they occur roughly every couple of years when Mars comes around closest to the Sun, and we only really get to see them when we're closest to Mars, when it's closest to the Sun, which happens roughly every 17 or 15 years.
	I mean, these are monstrous storms.
	Well, you've got several things working for you.
	You have a very thin air atmosphere.
	Right.
	You have an extremely dry surface.
	I mean, it is bone dry.
	Right.
	So when you stir up dust, Even in a thin atmosphere, there's no water to wet it.
	There's no wetting agent.
	It doesn't stick together.
	It's been dry for many, many millions of years and getting drier.
	So it's kind of like out here where I live, so dry that when the wind blows, it picks up everything.
	Yeah, that's right.
	Except on Mars, it picks it up and there's no precipitation falling to bring it back down.
	There's no nucleation, or very little, which would make it bigger and clump together and make it fall.
	Yeah.
	So that's why, when Viking landed, we were astonished to see that the skies looked pink.
	So then it's the, it's how close it gets, in other words, when it warms up, when it's closer to the sun.
	Mars orbit is not circular like the Earth.
	The energy is sufficient to get it going?
	It's sufficient, and plus you're tilted, you know, that hemisphere, the southern hemisphere, is tilted toward the sun.
	So you get an enhanced effect.
	Okay.
	On Earth, you know, we have a tilt, 23.5 degrees.
	Mars is tilted 25 degrees.
	The tilt creates seasons, right?
	On Earth, we're closer and tilted toward the Sun in the winter in the Northern Hemisphere, so the two things kind of moderate.
	Even though our orbit is pretty circular, it's not exactly a circle.
	Mars is very elliptical.
	It's quite elliptical, egg-shaped.
	And so you can get millions of miles closer to the Sun on Mars in the Southern Hemisphere summer than you can in the Northern Hemisphere winter.
	So the summers on Mars are warmer.
	And the winters are colder by a lot than they would be if the Mars orbit was circular.
	Okay.
	So the dust storm that we're seeing erupted from a place called Hellas, and like the one back when Mariner 9 went into orbit in 71, it quickly spread around the entire planet, so for weeks you couldn't see anything but dust.
	That's right.
	You got your telescope just at the wrong time, Art.
	I know.
	Although it was really, and I could clearly see the storms.
	It was incredible.
	Well, I was watching before the storms.
	Ha ha.
	In fact, that was the night we were going to do the show, the night it was closest, and then you had to leave a little early?
	Yes.
	We had an incredible view, and all kinds of neat, mysterious things have happened, but the view you see on the screen now, for everybody watching on Web TV or on their computer, that is the view of what we now think Mars may have looked like hundreds of millions of years ago, and what we've been trying to do is to piece together the puzzle.
	That would allow us to say some very certain things that have never been said before about Mars, and by the end of the evening, we hope to be able to tell you how we got there.
	Okay.
	This all comes down to water.
	It all comes down to where did the water go?
	That's why Mars Observer and Mars Surveyor were sent.
	Right.
	Because NASA, since 1971, has seen these incredible evidences of ancient water, You know, vast canyons carved by rushing floods and streams and tributaries and ancient rivers, all bone dry now, all sitting there under their, you know, 100th atmosphere of Earth.
	Yeah, water is life.
	Water is life.
	And water is definitely connected to life.
	If you don't got water, you don't got anything.
	Right.
	So where did the water go?
	Well, about a year ago, when we finally got our first sets of pictures, this is now the second picture down, Art, all right?
	All right.
	In July, a little over a year ago, We published on Enterprise a photograph right after the NASA press conference on water.
	Remember when they announced they'd found evidence of arroyos?
	I do, indeed.
	Of erosion that looked like it could have been maybe a million years ago.
	Sure.
	Could have been yesterday, but there was no liquid water.
	Well, we found some images, and this is one of them, which show things, dark, streaky stains.
	Yes, indeed, dark.
	Indeed, dark.
	Look for all the world, they go from high level stuff down to lower level stuff.
	Downhill.
	I see that, yes.
	And you can see here several different versions.
	There's real dark ones, then there's lighter ones, then there's real light ones.
	If this is moisture being represented.
	That's what we thought.
	And it does look like it's going downhill, folks.
	Take a look for yourself.
	Alright.
	Inevitably, the darker, the further down you go, the darker it gets, indicating the water's pooling down below.
	So this has been a mystery now for about a year, and we were the first to publish and claim it was liquid water, and here's the model we actually presented to Enterprise.
	Coming from where?
	Ah, coming from underground.
	Coming from water that is being melted underground.
	Because remember, the temperatures refer to the surface.
	Air temperature.
	But you know, living in the desert, that it can be relatively comfortable standing up, but if you put an egg on your sidewalk, Yeah, that's right.
	of the house, it can actually fry.
	Yeah, that's right.
	So the ground can be warmer and can trap energy more than the air.
	The air is very thin on Mars, so the air temperature is very, very cool all the time.
	But the ground temperature can get up to 50, 60, 70, 80 degrees.
	Did you know that?
	I had heard that, yes.
	And this was measured by Lowell and Geyser Telescopes and now reconfirmed.
	So the ground near the equator can actually rise well above the boiling point of water.
	I'm sorry, the liquid point, not boiling point.
	You mean the melting point of ice?
	Exactly.
	So it's about 32 degrees Fahrenheit.
	Now, the theory says, well, wait a minute.
	Even if you had water, as soon as it hits the air, it's going to evaporate.
	So if you have a liquid pool, it'll go poof.
	It'll disappear within minutes.
	But if you wet the ground from underneath, and the ground has certain properties, and we'll get into that in a minute, you might be able to have liquid water that would stay liquid Wetting the ground like a sponge.
	You know how you can wet a sponge from underneath and it seeps up through?
	Sure.
	It would stay liquid for hours or maybe even half a day before it evaporated, depending upon the kind of soil and where the water was coming from, how deep.
	So we looked at these last year and we said, holy, whatever, it's liquid water.
	And as soon as we said that, NASA said, you guys are crazy.
	It's dust.
	These are dust avalanches.
	Flowing downhill, that's better.
	End of discussion.
	And a whole bunch of people in the so-called anomalous community.
	How do they know?
	Well, they don't.
	They're looking at the same photographs we are, right?
	That's right.
	And we've had now geologists, we've had Ron Nix look at this, we've had a lot of other people look at it.
	There have been a lot of independent investigators, people like Efren Palermo and Jill England, who are two people I really want to cite tonight, because they did some amazingly good scientific research which allowed us to create the paper that we have published in Enterprise.
	Richard, you can even see in this photograph some of these downhill shadings
	which are almost dried up. If you imagine it's water and at the very
	bottom it's darker as it certainly would be if water
	if it was liquid.
	If it cooled under gravity and the bottom had more than the top.
	No question about it.
	Drying slower.
	Now notice that there are light ones in between.
	I do, yes.
	Okay, everybody who's ever lived in the Midwest or in the mountains knows that you have a terrible problem, the so-called bathtub or bathroom sink stain problem, which is caused by calcium carbonate.
	That's right.
	Or any one of a number of other minerals.
	Right.
	If you were to have mineral-laden springs underground Soaking up through the sand and the dust, and wetting it, and looking darker because it's wet, and then drying, what you would get as a residue after that process had gone, would be the mineral that are left.
	Right.
	You get the white stuff, and you can see some of these streaks now instead of being dark, they're light.
	Yes.
	Well, we were pretty convinced that we were looking at liquid water.
	And then other people picked up the cudgels.
	As I said, Efren Palermo put up a website, and he started culling through thousands of Mars images for the stains, as we've called them, the stains, because they're dark stains, right?
	Yes.
	And he's got an incredible website, which is linked to Enterprise, you know, if you go down a little bit, where he mapped, you know, he basically looked all over, and he put up images and images and images.
	And finally, I got together with him this past spring, and I said, Efren, have you made a map?
	A global distribution of these images.
	Right.
	Because if we're looking at water art, our idea was it should be around the equator, because that's where it's warmer.
	Sure.
	And it might even be seasonal.
	And if you looked over enough of Malin's pictures covering a couple of Martian years, you may be able to decode all that.
	Well, he set up a global Mercator projection, and he involved a very bright young gal named Jill England, who is a statistician.
	She gives a whiz at mathematics, and what she has done is gone through, get this, all of the 70-plus thousand images from Mars that Malin has given us, and done a statistical analysis, a first-rate statistical analysis, which they, by the way, have put into a paper that they're publishing at the Mars Society Conference in, I believe it's in a few days, in Denver, the annual conference.
	Of people who basically want to send manned missions back to Mars?
	Yes.
	The paper was accepted.
	And what it shows is that the distribution of these stains is very, very weird.
	It is.
	I'm looking at figure three jumping out.
	That's it.
	Jump down now to figure number three.
	Yeah, okay.
	And we're looking at a 180 degree difference from a planetary point of view, correct?
	That's right.
	You've got a cluster, a big cluster of stains in one place on Mars.
	And then if you look at Mars as a globe, and we'll get to that in a moment, 180 degrees away, on the other side of the planet, are where the rest of the stains are.
	Yep, there they are.
	And there's nothing in between!
	And you've got them coded.
	The red dots indicating stain images, the yellow dots indicating light stain images, and the green dots indicating non-stain images.
	This is Jeffery and Jill's coding, but as I said, we suggested that he do the mapping.
	This became the central mystery all spring into the summer.
	We've had all kinds of discussions among ourselves.
	Yes.
	What in the world could be causing this distribution?
	Now, this distribution has a name.
	It's called bimodal distribution.
	What does that mean?
	Bimodal means it's got two poles.
	Oh.
	It comes up in two places.
	Right, right.
	Like bipolar distortion.
	Sure, sure, sure.
	There is no way that these can be dust.
	Because dust, I mean, the areas of Mars flow all around the planet.
	You have global dust storms, boys and girls.
	That's what we just stopped discussing, right?
	So how can you, falling down, you know, steep cliffs and other places on Mars, only in two areas, That are 180 degrees apart.
	So I looked at this, and I looked at this, and I looked at this... You can't.
	It's water.
	No.
	It's got to be water.
	Well, let's put it this way.
	It has to be a fluid.
	A fluid of some sort.
	It might not be... I mean, you know, if you want to be very scientific... Well, water's a good guess if we... Water's a very good guess.
	If we think there was a lot of water on Mars, then it follows there could be still, obviously, could still be water below the surface on Mars.
	As we said in our original note last year, Those dark things could be oil.
	Well, it could be.
	They're so damn dark.
	It could be.
	Tommy Gold, you know Tommy Gold?
	And the way it's going in about 35 years, it'll be worth, financially, worth bringing oil back from Mars.
	George, you hear that?
	You want to drill in Anwar?
	I've got a place for you.
	Yes, indeed.
	Long pipeline.
	Very long pipeline.
	Tommy Gold, who is a brilliant astrophysicist, he actually was the one who coined the term Pulsar and Neutron Star, he has proposed that the oil on Earth is not due to organisms, you know, little biogenic things, ancient guys buried... I thought it was dinosaurs, yeah.
	Or dinosaurs, you know, we're digging up the T-Rexes and putting them in our gas tanks.
	Right.
	He is claiming, with some reasonable evidence, that the production of oil is not biological, but it's chemical.
	And, yeah, it involves hydrocarbons, but those are made, you know, naturally, as opposed to with life, and that any planet with enough chemistry should have deep layers of oil under its surface, even if it never had life.
	Well, then, shouldn't there be, here on Earth, more oil forming underground?
	Well, but it takes a long time to form.
	Oh, well, I understand, but shouldn't they be able to see, even at the macro level, some development of new oil?
	It would depend on where you're drilling, and In other words, how would you know if you're drilling into a pool of sediments that it isn't abiogenically formed?
	Well, shouldn't they see something in process?
	Well, Gold's theory is so controversial and it has not been really tested yet.
	I think they tried to test it in the Baltic Sea.
	I'd be more comfortable with the fluid idea, the water idea even, than oil.
	Well, you have to be kind of objective here and say it could be another fluid.
	Back down to the map, all right?
	All right.
	Because the map, the map is gold.
	I mean, this is where Efren is hopefully listening tonight, because we've not told him what we've figured out from his map.
	All right, everybody.
	For those of you that don't have computers, the two areas 180 degrees apart at both poles of Mars are just filled with these red dots that would indicate some sort of stain images, serious stain images.
	Elsewhere on the planet, you've got mostly green.
	Which means non-stain images.
	It's just impossible.
	It's absolutely impossible.
	It probably is water.
	Okay, I'll give you that, Richard.
	Well, the thing that is conclusive that it's got to be a fluid and most likely water is the next graphic down.
	Because I'm looking at this, and I'm looking at this, and I'm suddenly thinking, oh my God, what would give you an unmistakable, bimodal, double-pole, 180-degree signature?
	Tides.
	Tides.
	Tides, indeed, yes.
	If you look at that diagram, this is listed from a guy named Michael Payne.
	Yes.
	And what people don't realize, you know, even though we live on Earth, even if you live near the seashore, most people don't realize that we, for a very good reason, have two high tides a day.
	I mean, you living in a desert, you wouldn't know anything about this, but presumably when you were out in Okinawa or places like that, you watched the ocean?
	Yes, Richard, I've watched the ocean from time to time.
	The reason we have two tides is because the Moon is the culprit here.
	The Moon raises gravitationally a lump of water on the one side of the Earth.
	That's where you have one high tide.
	But what most people don't know is that on the other side of the Earth, at exactly the same moment, you have another high tide, 180 degrees opposite.
	And there's some funny little physics, and that diagram explains it if people want to go and kind of study it.
	But, you know, we don't have to get into the details, but on every body where you would have tides... Actually, I would like to understand that.
	Hold on, Richard.
	He's right.
	We have a high tide on this side, which is facing the Moon.
	I understand, I think, the physics behind that, but I don't understand the physics that would create a high tide on the other side of the Earth, which is not seeing the Moon, or the influence from the Moon.
	Hmm.
	We'll ask about that.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Good morning or afternoon or evening or whatever it is wherever you are.
	I'm happy and I'm finally walking in.
	We can be right there.
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	We'll be able to fly.
	the next video.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nauvoo.
	Think about it.
	Is it really important to know what happened to Mars?
	Yes, it probably is.
	Because it could happen to us.
	In addition to that, should it occur to us, we might need a place to go.
	So, what have we got up there?
	Do we have small life?
	Large life?
	Do we have water?
	That's what we're talking about tonight.
	You might want to stick around and see how it turns out.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Yeah, I don't love machines.
	All right.
	I am kind of curious.
	I can understand the physics, I think, of why we have a high tide when the moon's looking at us.
	But why would we have one on the other side of the Earth?
	Richard?
	Okay, let me try to do this simply.
	And for folks who don't have computers, you're going to really have to think about this metal picture.
	All right.
	When the Moon is over any part of the Earth that has an ocean, there's a bulge of water pulled up toward the Moon by the Moon's gravity.
	The Earth is also rotating at a thousand miles an hour.
	So even if we didn't have a Moon, Art, there would be a kind of an inner tube of water around the equator.
	Because of the centrifugal force effect of the rotation, like swinging a bucket of water around your head on an old piece of rope.
	Which, in fact, I actually did one day, and had very interesting results.
	This was a long time ago.
	Science is experimental, and sometimes you've got to experiment, even if it means blowing up your mother's kitchen.
	Well, that's another story, so we won't go there either tonight.
	Anyway, so we're on a rotating planet, and you've got gravity plus centrifugal force.
	Okay.
	So the bulge toward the moon is even a little bigger.
	But why do we have a bulge away from the moon?
	On the other side, yeah.
	Ah, that's a really interesting puzzle, and a lot of people don't understand it, so let me try here.
	Try me.
	Okay.
	It's because the force of gravity from the moon is not linear.
	In other words, it isn't constant.
	Okay.
	It decreases with distance.
	Okay.
	And it decreases rapidly with distance.
	Right.
	That's why they call it the inverse square law.
	Right.
	So by the time you get to the other side of the world, which is 8,000 miles farther from the moon... Yes.
	...than the side facing the moon, the force of the moon's gravity is significantly smaller.
	Right.
	So the centrifugal force that's spinning up the inner tube of water... Yes.
	...can spin it up high on that side, because the Earth is being pulled out from under it.
	Differentially.
	It's that differential force.
	It's the difference between the Moon pull and the centrifugal force of the rotating water on the rotating Earth.
	You wind up with two bulges.
	Opposite.
	Yeah, but it seems to me it ought to be the opposite of that.
	In other words, it ought to be a low tide there, because the Moon continues, albeit a lesser pull, and as you're looking outside of the Earth, it seems to me that would pull it Toward the bulge, which would make it a lesser tide on the opposite side.
	It would be if we were just sitting in space and suddenly moving toward the moon.
	Right.
	But because we're in orbit, you have that bucket effect.
	Okay.
	And it's all in the rotation.
	Remember rotation, rotation, rotation?
	Yes, okay.
	Now, tides like this, because planets are going to orbit other bodies anywhere in the galaxy, anywhere in the universe, you will have two lobe tides.
	Bimodal tidal distribution on any planet with tides anywhere in the universe.
	So then your theory is, with regard to Mars, that that tidal effect is what produces the water bulging from the ground on opposite sides.
	That's right.
	Okay, I've got it.
	But here's the big problem.
	What is causing the tides?
	On Mars?
	On Mars.
	It has no moons.
	I mean, it has two little tiny potatoes.
	Not enough, not enough.
	No, no way, no way, no way.
	And the Sun, tidal force, by the way, goes as the inverse cube.
	The height of tides is as the third power divided of the distance.
	So, by the time, I mean, we have small solar tides on Earth.
	They're about half the height of the lunar tides.
	But by the time you get out to Mars, any solar tide is insignificant.
	Plus, Mars is rotating.
	24 hours, 37 minutes.
	Half an hour longer than it takes for the Earth to spin.
	Why would you have two tidal signatures permanently now on the surface, fixed in time?
	I don't know.
	Ah, that's where the break... I mean, I've got to tell you that the emotional high, pun intended, of coming up with the answer to this and finding it was the answer to a whole series of mysteries going back to Lowell's time.
	It answers so many questions.
	That's why we've written this 32-page paper that we have published on Enterprise.
	You just go to EnterpriseMission.com or go through your website to us, and right at the very top, there's a big banner that says, Attention.
	You know, you're going to be swept away by the tides of Mars, and we explain in much more detail than we can tonight How this now answers so many extraordinary mysteries of Mars, including what happened to Mars' life.
	Okay, we'll answer it.
	Why do they have tides?
	Why do they have tides?
	Because it has to be an echo.
	It has to be telling us about an ancient Mars, a condition, a situation, where Mars was close to a big object with good gravity, which maintained those tides.
	Yeah, but that accounts for then, not now.
	Because, well, here's where things get more interesting.
	Okay.
	Go the next graphic down.
	Alright?
	Alright.
	Okay, here we have a picture of, I guess, Mars.
	Well, we have Palermo's map.
	You know, computers can now take Mercator and wrap him around spheres.
	Right.
	So what we did is, we had Efren wrap his map around the globe of Mars, and you wind up now, look at the various captions, you wind up with Most of the stains are on what's called the Tharsis Bulge.
	Fewer stains are on the opposite side of what are called the Arabia Bulge.
	And I've got here a graphic showing a tidally distorted ocean.
	If Mars had an ocean, you know, that egg-shaped thing is aligned.
	And to the right it says, Two Planet Five.
	Yes.
	That would account for it then, but how now?
	We'll get there.
	Remember Tom Van Flanders?
	Tom Van Plannern has maintained for many, many years that Mars used to be a satellite of a bigger guy in the outer solar system, near the asteroid dome.
	We think tonight, boys and girls, we have proven Tom is right.
	How?
	Because of the tides.
	If Mars existed as a satellite relatively close, within let's say 100,000 miles, what would happen is it would become tidally locked.
	Like the Moon goes around the Earth, so you only see one side every month?
	Right.
	Mars would go around the big guys, so it would always see the same side.
	If you were standing on the big planet, with Mars as the Moon, you'd only see one hemisphere.
	Okay.
	We have a weird situation.
	We've had it since the 70s, when Mariner 9 first went into orbit.
	They found that there's this huge bulge in Mars.
	Go down to the next graphic, okay?
	This is a MOLA graphic.
	The MOLA is the Mars Orbiter Laser Altimeter.
	Yes.
	It's bouncing, pinging, laser pulses.
	Right.
	Measuring the altitude of various things under the spacecraft orbiting Mars now.
	Right.
	So it's developed this incredible, complete Mars map of the altitudes to an error rate of less than a few centimeters.
	Okay, I'm on it.
	Okay.
	Notice that the red stuff, if you look at the key at the top.
	Yeah, what does that indicate?
	That color scale, what does it mean?
	The blue stuff is low.
	Right.
	The red stuff is high.
	Okay.
	Look at where the red stuff is.
	They're opposite.
	Opposite!
	Roughly.
	Yep.
	Now, the one on the left is reversed from the previous diagram.
	The one on the left is what's called the Tharsis Bulge, where all the huge volcanoes are.
	Yes.
	Olympus Mons and Arsia Mons and all those others.
	Gotcha.
	Kind of down at the 4 o'clock position, is Arabia Bulge.
	There are two bulges in the crust and mantle of Mars that have never been explained.
	They are unique in the solar system.
	The Tharsis Bulge is the biggest bulge on any planet we've ever visited or ever surveyed in the last 40 years of NASA.
	And is completely mysterious.
	Totally, bafflingly mysterious to every mainstream planetologist within the sound of my voice.
	Unless there was another...
	Unless, yes, because what would happen over long periods of time, Art, is things get frozen in.
	Right.
	They get deformed.
	Planets are plastic.
	Okay, I understand that.
	You don't think of rock as being plastic, like toothpaste.
	Okay, I'm with you all the way, except Richard.
	Let's go down to the next graphic.
	And you're except.
	Okay.
	I'm there.
	Alright, the next graphic shows a schematic version of what we think happened.
	Mars got captured sometime between the origin of the solar system, 5 billion years ago, and X time.
	You know, back in time millions of years?
	Right.
	Mars got captured.
	Okay.
	By a planet that used to exist out there, where there's now but rubble.
	And remember Tom's idea?
	Sure.
	That there were a couple of planets that blew up?
	Absolutely.
	Well, we may not have to go that far.
	We may just have to smash them together.
	And it would have the same effect.
	If they were big enough, and they collided at fast enough speed, you'd get the equivalent of a huge explosion.
	Right.
	And what that would do is liberate Mars.
	So this is the schematic of Mars before it was liberated, before it was released in this event.
	Okay.
	And what you can see is it would rotate around the big guy, maintaining the same face toward the planet.
	We think it would have rotated around around 24 hours, kind of like its rotational period now.
	That that's the ancient rotation revolution period?
	Yes.
	And it would raise bulges, both in the crust and in the oceans.
	Okay.
	Now, if this occurred, several important other things would happen.
	That huge bulge, the Tharsis Bulge, has all those big volcanoes.
	What do big volcanoes do, Art?
	They belch stuff out.
	Right.
	And what kind of stuff is it?
	Well, molten stuff, rocks, dust, ashes, gas, yeah.
	And that's where we think the Earth's atmosphere came from.
	In fact, we think the planetary atmospheres of so-called silicate worlds, Earth-like worlds, all comes from volcanoes belching out their guts from the inside on the outside, and exhaling gases that then form the atmosphere.
	Then on Earth, life modified the atmosphere.
	Because these primitive atmospheres would be CO2, and they'd be nitrogen, and they'd be the other things, trace elements.
	But ultimately, for the last 500 plus million years, life on Earth has transformed the CO2 into oxygen, nitrogen, things like that.
	So our atmosphere is very atypical of the normal planetary process.
	But in terms of its ancient origins, it would have been the same on Mars.
	Big volcanoes mean lots of belching, mean lots of atmosphere.
	So, as you wind up with Mars in this tidal configuration, you wind up augmenting the internal heating process, particularly if, and Flanner is also right, that this big guy had another moon.
	Remember what's going on in the Jovian system right now, where you have these four moons, the so-called Galilean satellites?
	Yes.
	And they're nudging each other gravitationally?
	Right.
	And they wind up inputting energy into Io, and it's got all that volcanic activity we found back in 1979 with Voyager?
	Yes.
	A similar situation could have gone on with one other moon in the Planet 5 system.
	All it would take is one other moon, and there'd be enough tidal disturbance of the rotation revolution that you'd get, basically, it's like bending a wire back and forth where the wire gets hot.
	The energy gets dumped into the interior, it's belched up in volcanoes, the volcanoes add to the gaseous atmosphere, so you get a very dense atmosphere.
	Much denser than the one now.
	A hundred times denser.
	But Richard, I'm sorry, I still do not understand.
	If there is interior water in Mars, what is causing the tidal effect that brings it to the surface at 180 degrees?
	You're getting there.
	You're getting there, okay?
	But you've got to have a little foundation here.
	The ultimate upshot of all this is that Mars would have had a dense atmosphere.
	And the denser the atmosphere, the more it traps heat from the sun.
	Right.
	It's called the greenhouse effect.
	Right.
	With enough greenhouse, you get nice balmy temperatures.
	Sure.
	You get liquid water.
	You get liquid water for potentially hundreds of millions of years.
	Alright?
	So, what then happened is, according to Tom and according to our separate calculations, either the big guy exploded, Or that's our next diagram down.
	Or it got collided by the other planet, so-called Planet K in his model.
	Right.
	Either way, you would have had an incredible detonation right on Mars' doorstep.
	And on Mars, there's a huge southern hemisphere that's absolutely peppered with craters.
	Right.
	Shoulder-to-shoulder craters.
	This diagram demonstrates how we think the craters formed.
	It's the debris from the explosion of the planet.
	What that did, and that's our last diagram, is to release Mars back into a solar orbit all by itself.
	I dig it.
	This final picture is indeed a photograph of Mars.
	It's a photograph taken by Hubble a few days ago.
	Boy, it's a beauty.
	Isn't that gorgeous?
	Yeah, it is.
	Yep, yep.
	It's, by the way, the Cydonia side of Mars.
	What's the blue at the top and bottom?
	That is water ice crystals and CO2 that are scattering sunlight, like blue sky.
	That's clouds.
	It's a vestige of the atmosphere.
	Let me go through the last steps.
	In this model, which I'm really thinking is real, not only would you have the planet deformed into those two bulges in the crust... I understand.
	...the oceans, the water, would have collected in two oceans, clustered over Tharsis and over Arabia.
	Okay, I can buy that.
	And it would have sat there for millions, if not hundreds of millions of years.
	What happens when the planet blows up or it gets collided?
	You suddenly lose the gravitational tidal lock.
	Suddenly this condition, which has existed for maybe half a billion years, is released.
	The gravity field suddenly goes away.
	The tides of Mars are gone.
	And the water is released to rush at headlong velocity, hundreds of miles an hour, back to the lowest places on Mars, which is in between the two oceans.
	We see these incredible huge channels.
	That's why when we talked the other day and you said they just found these incredible big channels?
	Yes.
	Guess where they are?
	They're right at the edges of this ocean.
	They're where the waters would have rushed for 1,000 miles, 150 miles wide, and carved incredible channels in the crust because of the vacuum forces of that much water rushing at that speed over the surface under Mars' gravity.
	What we're now saying is that the water that we're seeing in these stains opposite on both these poles, these tidal oceans, are the ancient seabed waters coming up from underneath the ground where there used to be the ancient oceans!
	But doesn't it take some kind of remaining tidal pressure to force that?
	No.
	All it takes is temperature, heat.
	And all it would do is... Remember, the only place water can go is up.
	If you melt it, it will flow upwards.
	Right.
	It will percolate upwards.
	Sure.
	So if you had ancient seas sitting over two places, you know, think of two round oceans on both sides of Mars, and then they're suddenly released, and the atmosphere goes away, you have massive impacts, most of the water and the atmosphere is literally vaporized and blown into space.
	We're talking a catastrophe of unimaginable biblical proportions.
	How large do you imagine these Well, they're not oceans, they are the remaining rivulets of ancient water.
	Now, here's something important.
	Under the current Martian conditions, it would be very hard to maintain liquid water, right?
	At the recent Lunar and Planetary Science Conference in Houston, two Russian guys from the Russian Academy of Sciences, from the Institute of Geochemistry, proposed a model where if you add salt to water under Mars conditions, It can be liquid, even well below 10, 20, 30 degrees, below zero?
	Sure.
	And what would you find on the seabeds of two ancient oceans, Art?
	Salt.
	Salt.
	So we go down the list, ping, ping, ping, ping, every mystery that they are now propounding.
	The discovery of huge channels, the bimodal distribution of the stains, The strange atmosphere, the weird presence of sulfur.
	You know that Mars has a lot more sulfur on the surface?
	43 times more sulfur than the Earth does?
	This should mean that if we were to go to Mars with man, or even with a robot, we could drill into the appropriate areas and find water pretty quickly.
	Oh, it's got to be close to the surface.
	Yeah, exactly.
	In these regions.
	Now, here, remember, any scientific theory, and again, I want to call people's attention, if you go to the Enterprise website, Follow the links at the top of the main page.
	You'll go to the paper.
	We have it in PDF form because we are so convinced this is real that we're submitting this to scientific peer-reviewed journals to be published under that process.
	That's going to take a long time because you can't send them simultaneously.
	You've got to send them one at a time.
	So you get rejection, rejection, rejection.
	Somebody is going to publish this in a peer-reviewed journal.
	It is that good.
	It answers every single mystery.
	Now, your question, where do you drill?
	Obviously, go to the two places where you have stains.
	Right.
	And that's where you put your man base.
	That's where you drill, because that's where the water is, and you can easily filter out the salt.
	That is trivial, alright?
	But you've got lots of water there, if this model is correct.
	Well, I asked about that.
	When you say lots of water, how much water?
	Well... Maybe.
	Certainly, given the number of stains we're seeing, And the fact that we now have a time constant.
	We know that they appear and darken immediately.
	Yes.
	But they don't dry up for years.
	So how much water maybe?
	Well certainly enough to fill maybe the Mediterranean Sea.
	Enough certainly to support a man based on Mars.
	No question about that.
	All right.
	Well that's pretty interesting stuff.
	Take a look at the It really does look like water up there.
	I'm Art Bell.
	this is Coast to Coast AM.
	and I'm a man who's got it all.
	I'm a man who's got it all.
	You know it's just your foolishness.
	Yeah.
	Catch me on my heels, yeah.
	I'm beggin' God and please, yeah.
	you Wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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	You know, you really want to take a look at the photograph that Richard has up there.
	The last one.
	The real photograph of Mars as it is today.
	I think you'd be very surprised to see the blue.
	Art Bell, learning a little bit more about Mars.
	You know, you really want to take a look at the photograph that Richard has up there.
	The last one, a real photograph of Mars as it is today.
	I think you'd be very surprised to see the blue, the blue, the atmosphere.
	Looks like our blue sky.
	It's a real photograph.
	Recent photograph taken of Mars.
	It's really cool.
	A lot of blue up there.
	More blue than anybody would have expected.
	All right, welcome back to Richard C. Hoagland in New Mexico.
	And Richard, I think you've made a pretty convincing case that the water is under those two areas.
	What I guess I want to know is what does that What does that really mean for us?
	Does that mean that a manned base on Mars is feasible?
	Oh, trivial, trivial.
	Because if there's that much water, and we're talking a lot of water, residual water, then everything that Robert Zubrin and the others that want to go Mars direct, and the fast and cheap, and not the massive $400 to $500 billion mission, but their $30 billion maybe, is totally, totally doable.
	That's the first fallout of this model.
	And let me tell you why this danger is so dark.
	I mean, the deeper we get into the model, pun intended, the deeper title model, the better this gets.
	And for those people who can't download PDF files, I've been getting a few faxes like, what the hell do you mean putting the PDF up there?
	We're doing that because that's what we're submitting to the journals.
	Right.
	Tomorrow, next day, sometime, we will have an HTML version on the web, web-friendly for all the web pages.
	So they can just read it directly.
	They can read it directly.
	The reason this is such a powerful model, and so amazing, and I want everybody in the planetary community out there, so the anomalists, all the people following the Cydonia, you know, up and down, back and forth, to basically think about this.
	Because if we are right, this is not only the key to the kingdom of putting men and women on Mars now, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap.
	George, are you listening?
	But it's the key to solving what happened to Mars in the past.
	And whether there was anybody home.
	And that's the thing that I'm so excited about, because this now allows me, in Heritage, to lay out, to preview tonight, but to lay out in detail, the past history of Mars, and what happened there, the parallel, what happened here!
	Why do you think Arthur C. Clarke is suggesting there may be, now, large life still on Mars?
	It falls out of the model!
	Get this, okay.
	If Tom is right, and you know how Tom Van Planderen You created the idea of a possible other set of planets out there, and Mars is a satellite?
	Yes.
	Based on the celestial mechanics of comets and asteroids?
	That's right.
	You can't really cheat celestial mechanics.
	It's pretty simple stuff.
	And he basically sees the signature in his evidence of explosions or collisions, all right?
	Big ones.
	Yes.
	We've got a Mars now with all these tidal signatures.
	That's the part tonight I'm totally firm on.
	Mars was tidally bound to a big object.
	It then was released.
	How it was released, whether it was an explosion or a collision, is almost irrelevant.
	We know from the data now that Mars had to have been captured into this orbit,
	24-hour orbit, and held there for a long time.
	How long? That's the key $64 million question. How long?
	Tom says that this all came to an end, a catastrophic end, 65 million years ago, right?
	Yes.
	That's when the dinosaurs bought it.
	That is indeed.
	The dinosaurs bought it because a fragment of the colliding or exploding planet hit the Earth and killed them.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So that's our end stop.
	That's when Mars went to hell.
	You know, Elton John's, Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids because it's cold as hell?
	Well, that's when Mars got cold as hell because that's when the Garden of Eden period, as I'm calling this, came to an end.
	But the real question is, how long did it last?
	Now, I can get into the details if you want, but I'll give you the number.
	We think that Mars was in this tidal lock condition for about 500 million years.
	Wow.
	Half a billion years.
	Now, why is that number important?
	Because that's the same number as it took for the Earth to create all the advanced life we enjoy on Earth tonight.
	We had something called the Cambrian Explosion of biological diversity.
	540 million years ago, scientists, paleontologists, biologists, evolutionary guys, all say that that's when we went from little bacteria that cover the earth to suddenly a huge explosion of evolution where all the advanced families, all the advanced forms that we find now, so-called body plans of big guys, suddenly appear.
	And the Swedes think that it may have happened in as little as 5 million years.
	and it set the blueprint for everything that's happened in the last 540 million years.
	It has always been a mystery, yes.
	A huge mystery, and I will try to solve that one in Heritage.
	It's too big to tackle tonight.
	But the interesting thing is that from our separate work on Mars, it looks like Mars
	was captured about the same time as advanced life on Earth was basically appearing.
	Now, would all of this lead you to believe that there was some sort of advanced civilization on Mars?
	And that during this specific period, the one that you identify there and here, they made their way from there to here, being aware of what was happening?
	Kind of.
	This is what we think happened.
	You had a primitive Mars with little guys in the soil, little bacteria.
	Mars gets captured.
	The Tharsis Bulge in Arabia begin to develop under the tidal forces.
	They belch out gases.
	They create a greenhouse effect.
	You get warm temperatures.
	You get rain.
	You get oceans.
	You get volcanic activity putting out chemicals.
	You get lightning.
	Remember your lightning zapping the little warm pond you talked about with Stephen last night?
	Yes.
	You get a parallel development with similar temperatures and a similar amount of time, and I'm going to argue that you have similar type evolution.
	I think a reasonable person would conclude that.
	Now, last year when we found the water stains and published them, we also found some other things that frankly were so unbelievable that I kind of buried them in the middle of one of our reports.
	We found things, Art, that look for all the world like huge fossilized life forms.
	I'm talking huge.
	I'm talking enormous.
	Life forms?
	Life forms.
	Ancient skeletons.
	And we have them on our website, alright?
	I don't have the link up there right tonight because we published them a year ago, and I can't prove it yet because I haven't talked to him, you know, but I'm beginning to suspect because Arthur C. has been following what we're doing at Enterprise.
	Apparently.
	I think that that's where he got the idea that the glass tunnels may be big, ancient fossils of worms or mid-living worms.
	Now, I can grant him that they might be fossils.
	They might not be, you know, Lincoln Tunnels or Holland Tunnels, like we've been saying.
	They might be organic forms.
	But they might be ancient organic forms.
	You mean real Martian worms.
	Exactly, like in Dune, alright?
	Yeah, like in Dune.
	Like in Dune.
	Now, the reason that biology would have grown so huge on Mars, compared to our normal experience, Mars is not the Earth.
	Mars is smaller, it has a lighter gravity, It was under a very peculiar tidal condition, which does things in my physics model that would precipitate big life.
	But remember, we went through a period on Earth of big life, did we not?
	Very big.
	Huge things that could not exist on Earth, by the way.
	Jurassic Park, I think, could not happen now, because the gravity... Well, let me put it to you this way.
	If I'm right, when these planets blew themselves to pieces, or collided, and the fragments were scattered to the wind...
	The physics of the solar system went down a peg, so big stuff can no longer exist.
	But back in the heyday of the solar system, when everything was hunky-dory, you had huge biological developments on, if we're right, two worlds, not just one, and we're seeing in these photographs some of the evidence that Arthur is jumping up and down about.
	Now, I don't think they're currently alive.
	I think they are dead.
	They're fossilized.
	But if that's true, It means that you could find a tremendous panoply of the whole biological spectrum on Mars, waiting for human expeditions, like you have here on Earth.
	And it isn't going to be hard to find the big stuff, because they're huge.
	They are enormous, if we're right.
	And we published them, as I said, last year.
	You probably may have missed those images, but they're just astonishing.
	Oh, you're right.
	I missed them.
	I always saw the glass worm.
	I will put up tomorrow on the web the reposted link to them.
	So everybody can see what these big possible fossils look like.
	Okay.
	But they're just so, I mean, they just look so organic.
	I mean, Robin, you know, who has a medical background, she looked at them and she says,
	those look like skeletons.
	They look like the cross sections of a bone where you get the honeycombing.
	Well, they actually do, yes.
	Sure they do.
	I also saw some pictures that you put up of what appeared to be, you know, I could swear, even to my eye, it looks like foliage on Mars.
	That's the trees.
	Yeah, they look like trees.
	Well, they could be from an ancient... Remember, they're now frozen and uncovered at the poles.
	And there's no oxygen, so they'd be covered and uncovered with CO2, frost, snow, like dry ice.
	That's exactly the way they look.
	You pack them in dry ice, right?
	That's the way they look.
	So if these are primitive, ancient organisms, they may be preserved, and I think they are going to be huge.
	This is the big untold story of Mars.
	When we finally get there, we're going to find that life was there, and it was big.
	You know, the old joke about the 800-pound gorilla.
	Well, think about this, though.
	If you had big life, and if you had enough time to develop all the incredible intricacies of life on Mars, as we did here, what's to stop it, Art, from going to intelligence?
	Nothing.
	What this now gives us, and I'm really believing this, guys, it gives us a basis to say that the ruins we see at Cydonia, and all those other places, is indigenous Martian intelligence.
	Before the catastrophe.
	And if that was true, and they knew their planet was going to buy the farm, where would they go?
	Where would be the only other place in the whole solar system you could go?
	Right here.
	Here.
	I mean, we would be the obvious choice.
	Yep.
	Now, we've got to adjust the timescales, because there are parts of the time periods that don't fit yet, but that's because we haven't thought long and deep enough.
	I mean, this has all kind of come to a head in the last month.
	We've been really working on this paper, and I'm so proud of it, because Mike and I have really put our heart into it.
	It's 32 pages, 74 references of all the current things that have been found, and all the little pieces you have to put together in the puzzle to support and document your model.
	Nothing doesn't fit.
	That's what's so astonishing.
	There is not one mystery.
	I sound like the great Carsoni, right?
	Not one mystery is not explained by this model.
	If there was large life on Mars, and ultimately intelligent life on Mars, particularly life that could have made it to Earth, shouldn't there be far more remnants available to see, even if they're drastically misshapen and almost gone?
	Just as there would be a New York City to see, sort of in a mangled form for millions if not billions of years.
	Just look at the pictures.
	You have not had time.
	Arthur, of course, has a lot of time down there in Sri Lanka.
	Yes.
	And he has looked and looked and looked.
	Now, you know he has a mission going back.
	2001 Mars Odyssey.
	The NASA spacecraft is 80-some days away from planetfall at Mars again.
	It's going to go into orbit in October.
	By December, it will be in a position to test this model.
	Arthur's own spacecraft.
	The day it was launched, April 7th.
	The one named for him.
	The one named for him, yeah.
	Well, they didn't do that because they had nothing better to do.
	No, most people get spacecraft named after them after they're gone.
	After they're gone.
	Well, Arthur's pretty much alive and he's going to have one hell of a good time because he sent an email, which I've got, to the project manager at Lockheed Martin the day it was launched.
	And he said, I'm not quite willing to believe in artifacts yet, but go find them.
	And I think that's his tongue in cheek way of saying that he knows more than he's telling.
	And he's basically giving everybody a hint that they have to be there.
	Now, what will his spacecraft do that will test the tidal model?
	It carries three instruments.
	Are you aware of that?
	What are they?
	Okay.
	One is called TESS, which is a thermal imaging system.
	It's going to give us surface composition data with much higher resolution than the
	Mars Observer in the infrared.
	So it'll give us materials, what stuff is made of down there.
	Number two is an instrument called GRS, or Gamma Ray Spectrometer.
	It's going to basically look at gamma rays, which are very high energetic electromagnetic
	radiation, very high energy, that are emitted by nuclear events.
	And what it's going to look for is the interaction of cosmic rays, because Mars is bathed by
	cosmic rays like the Earth is, and what that does is generate secondary emission from certain
	It can look at like about 20 elements, from hydrogen up through silicon and aluminum and things like that.
	So it's going to map, with this gamma ray gadget, the distribution of elements on the surface.
	Okay.
	It's going to look at the hydrogen.
	Now what is the most likely form that you will find hydrogen on any planet?
	H2O, right.
	So it will map the hydrogen.
	Science is nothing if it's not prediction.
	A key prediction of this model tonight, Art, on your show, and in our paper, is that when Odyssey gets there and begins mapping in December with the Gamma Ray Instrument, it will find two anomalous, bimodal pools of hydrogen on both sides of the planet, Pharsis and Arabia, and almost nothing in between.
	And that would certainly solidify your model, yes.
	Indicate the presence of underground water.
	Agreed.
	Okay.
	Number two, it carries a gadget called MARIA, which stands for Mars Radiation, etc., etc.
	And NASA claims that they're measuring the ambient environment to see if it's safe for astronauts.
	Okay.
	And I said to, oh, I forget who I told this to, that it didn't make any sense because the Mars radiation environment is the same as here.
	We already have measured it with spacecraft, so who needs to measure it on Mars?
	But maybe there's a hidden agenda.
	God, NASA having a hidden agenda?
	I can't believe I said that.
	Maybe they already know all this.
	Now remember, we know now tonight that Mars had to be tidally locked around a big planet.
	And that planet got destroyed somehow.
	So if they already know this, what are they measuring for?
	Ah!
	Because there are two modes of destruction.
	One is the collision.
	Yes.
	Which is kind of normal.
	And the other is the explosion.
	Remember, Tom's biggest problem has been he can't explain to folks how you blow a planet up.
	Right.
	You can't go out and get the Acme Planet Blowing Up Kit.
	Remember the comic books used to have all these ads?
	Oh, sure.
	You can't buy one and do it in your garage, thank God.
	We think the hyper-dimensional physics model gives you more than enough energy to blow a planet up.
	And if that is true, When Odyssey gets there and begins measuring the radioactives on the surface, if the planet was destroyed and the materials splattered on the southern hemisphere, there should be very weird radioactive signatures still there.
	Very true, yes.
	From aluminum-26 and magnesium... I forget all the elements, but we have them in the paper, alright?
	Those should be incredible crystal-clear signatures of an anomalous nuclear-class event Because blowing up a planet involves nuclear energy level energies, and they should be spread all over Mars, and that's what the GRS and MARIA would find and map, if in fact that's true.
	Now why would that be useful to a manned Mars mission?
	Because if this all took place 65 million years ago, which is just yesterday, some of those isotopes could still be hot, Art.
	Alright.
	And they might be too hot to land near, so you don't want to land where there's a big radioactive thing.
	Uh-huh.
	So that's why Maria, I think, is being carried on Odyssey.
	Okay.
	Because they're measuring the environment to basically... But since they've done it before, what are they saying about why they're re-measuring?
	No, no, no.
	They've only measured here.
	They've never measured on Mars.
	Oh, I see.
	Okay.
	But the only environment that we know is radioactive is cosmic rays.
	So if you measure cosmic rays at the Earth and you measure them at Mars, it's the same thing.
	Cosmic rays come from the galaxy.
	So there's no source of radiation near Mars, or there shouldn't be.
	Unless it's the surface itself, which is still hot from the detonation the blue planet will come.
	Okay.
	And the third device?
	Well, there's the thermal camera, there's a GRS, the Gamma Ray Measuring, and MARIA, which is the Mars Radiation Instrument.
	MARIA is the acronym.
	Alright, so you're hoping this will then verify everything you sort of just said.
	And that's the test.
	The first test is, where is the water?
	And the water should be in two pools under those ancient oceans of Tarsus and Arabia.
	But if it is, this means a manned mission, a Mars base... Is cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap.
	Because we know how to do it.
	The problem is living off the land, as Zubrin says, and this would allow us to live off the land.
	Live off the land.
	Live on Mars.
	And perhaps even begin slowly converting Mars... Back to what it was.
	All right.
	Hold on, Richard.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	My guest is Richard C. Hoagland, and he's laid it out for you, what he thinks the mystery of Mars was and is, and what it would mean for us, and might mean for us relatively soon, if we get off our butts and get on the way back to Mars.
	We'll be right back.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	Well, you've got to admit, what Richard has said tonight makes sense.
	I suppose now the next step is to get all of this peer-reviewed.
	And should it come true, should all of this begin to bear fruit,
	then I guess we know where the manned mission to Mars would go.
	There'd be no choice about it.
	It would go where the water is.
	You gotta love the double one.
	That's really cool.
	Once again, back to Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard, you're back on.
	Ancient lightning on Mars.
	Oh man, that sounds so cool.
	It is.
	You'll listen to that as you watch the last picture, the one really taken by Hubble of Mars.
	That is really a cool picture.
	Yep.
	And there's water there.
	That's what the blue is.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	And, you know, there's a loop.
	Now, we can go further.
	We can tell now what happened after this incredible catastrophe.
	Okay.
	And, you know, it's like, what would have happened?
	The waters would have been released from their tidal lock.
	I mean, imagine oceans, two oceans sitting.
	Like two huge circular swimming pools on opposite sides of the planet?
	Right.
	For hundreds of millions of years?
	What happens with tides, Art, is that the whole planet gets deformed, like squishing an egg.
	Sure.
	And the water in between, because of the way the tide... We have a diagram in the paper that shows how the force lines go into the planet at right angles to the tidal line.
	Yes, sir.
	So basically, there's a band around the middle of Mars that would be really bone dry, and all the water would have been on these two poles.
	Now, why would it just sit there?
	Why wouldn't it go like the Earth's tides go around the Earth?
	Because the planet was locked with one side facing Planet 5.
	It wasn't rotating like we are relative to the Moon.
	Which, of course, is why you believe they put the artifacts Uh, like the phase on Mars, facing in that direction.
	That's right.
	Yes.
	And the angles and the tilt and the geometry.
	And by the way, these so-called tunnels that we found, the glass tunnels.
	Yes, sir.
	Which are all helter-skelter.
	They now, if that was a living site, if that was a city, as we say, and there are other places around Mars, but that one is the one we've looked at, obviously, the hardest.
	They would have had to have water, right?
	Yes.
	Where would the water have to come from?
	From one of the two oceans.
	Right.
	Right?
	Except for a little rain, which would quickly go away, the main water would be on one of those two oceans, so you'd have to construct pipelines to bring water to that desert strip in between.
	So we now might imagine that these incredible tubes we see are the huge conduits for water, and the reason that they're all held or sheltered is because of seismic energy.
	People have said on the web, and there's a lot of anomalous now, researchers, you know, commenting and looking and sharing data and all that.
	Yes.
	There's a huge growth industry, which I'm so glad to see, because it takes a huge burden off what a few of us have been trying to do all these years.
	It's now unstoppable, and I'm hoping this community looks at this model, says to NASA, you guys have got to fess up and be serious about this and go back.
	Just like you said, we need the manned mission now.
	But one of their My complaint has been about the big tubes as man-made, as artificial, is that they appear not to have an orderly geometry.
	Well, this model explains that.
	Well, I can imagine that.
	In other words, the amount of geological action that would have been going on would not give them much geometry, except at micro-level.
	At the moment of collision, when half that planet got hit by the explosion, I've calculated, based on models which are again referenced in the paper, the amount of seismic energy that would have been imparted to Mars.
	Can you say Richter-15 earthquake?
	Yeah.
	Do you understand what would happen, I mean not you, but everybody out there in the country, if the ground were to shake with a Richter-15 earthquake?
	Every number on the Richter scale is 10 times the previous number.
	Right.
	So the earthquake that leveled San Francisco was 8.6, I think, back in 1911?
	Something like that, yeah.
	All right.
	Imagine an earthquake a thousand, ten thousand, a hundred thousand times greater.
	All over the planet!
	Well, it would shake everything to the ground.
	That's right.
	Or, if they were made of stern stuff, which we think they are, it would make them go all cockawampus.
	Sure.
	Right?
	And so there would be no pattern left.
	The only pattern would be the integrity of the links themselves, if they are artificially made.
	If they're organisms, huge organisms, they would have died at the moment of the impact.
	Absolutely.
	All right?
	So you're looking at fossils then buried by material falling on top.
	I was going to get back to why the stains are so dark and how really cool this is, all right?
	Because when Viking landed in 76, we got our first surface chemistry, okay?
	And one of the things that popped out of the chemistry, which is the actual analysis of what the elements are, was an anomalous amount of sulfur.
	There's 43 times more sulfur on the surface of Mars than there is on the surface of the Earth.
	That's a lot.
	That is.
	Now, where does sulfur come from?
	Well, it turns out that sulfur is beneath our feet.
	It's buried in the natal and the cores of planets.
	If a planet spews its guts all over you, alright, you're going to have a lot of surface sulfur.
	And so you do in volcanoes.
	And that's what we have.
	Exactly.
	Volcanoes are belching up sulfur in the natal of the Earth.
	This sulfur on the surface appears now from the Mars Global Surveyor data to be in the form of sulfates, which are oxidized forms of sulfur.
	But I've turned to a chemistry friend of mine.
	In fact, you know him.
	Remember the guy that I connected you with for the chemtrail problem, Mike Castle?
	Sure.
	I called Mike and I said, OK, Mike, I've got this chemistry.
	What happens if I wet it?
	What do I get?
	And he said, oh, you get, and then he gave me the equations of what you would get.
	The water coming up underneath, even to have a salt in it, Interacting with the sulfur-rich surface stuff would produce sulfuric acid, which would then react with the iron to produce iron sulfide, which is pitch black.
	So I think the stains are pitch black iron sulfide from the surface sulfur iron materials being wetted by water from underground.
	Then over time, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, the little bit of oxygen that's released by the ultraviolet working on the CO2 would oxidize the iron sulfide back into iron oxides and sulfates.
	So they would go back to faded ground.
	Except if there is also salt in this water, the salts would remain as a whitish stain.
	If you look at that picture, number 2, you can see the sequence in these images.
	Old, medium, and young stains.
	Yep, you can.
	So again and again, the specifics of this model answers everything.
	I would love to open the lines.
	We have 15 minutes, so we probably can't do it tonight.
	But I'll bet there isn't one question that could be posed about Mars now that this model cannot answer.
	That's how powerful and confident I am that we're really onto it.
	Well, do you think you're going to be able to get good peer review?
	It's all a matter of the politics.
	If people out there really demand that there be honesty, and we know there are a lot of young church and planetary science community who listen to your show, who look at our websites, all right?
	That's why we're putting this paper in PDF form, so they can download it in the conventional format.
	Sure.
	It's kind of like when Playboy used to be so avant-garde, people would take it home in a brown paper wrapper.
	Can you imagine, three o'clock in the morning, various planetary science guys tiptoeing down to their dens and logging on to Enterprise and downloading the paper?
	Sure.
	But, because it's so powerful, and it answers so many things, what I'm really thinking is, inside the system, even if we don't get it published in a peer-reviewed journal, with the net now, it's almost irrelevant.
	It almost is.
	Because the net is democratic.
	The net is everywhere, and everybody talks to everybody, particularly with email.
	So it's going to get read.
	And we're going to make sure.
	We're going to send copies to all the key people in electronic form, so they can't avoid having it come in their mailbox.
	It's going to have to take root somewhere, because it answers too many questions.
	And if you're serious about finding out, if you're really a scientist at heart and you want to know what makes things tick, it's got to percolate down to where, even if they never acknowledge that we came up with it, which I doubt they would do, like Europa, it will get used and moved, and it will move the process, and we'll have missions based on this model, and that is another political prediction tonight.
	I think this is so powerful, an idea whose time has come, that it will get used, even if it's abused, and we, again, kind of get ignored.
	But in the short term, I don't care about that, because, as you said very rightly opening the show, if this is true, if the water is there in the amounts we now believe, it makes a manned mission mandated for a whole bunch of reasons, and economically trivial to do.
	How hard would it be, assuming that you are correct and the water is there, for a manned mission to derive everything they would need to virtually sustain life?
	I don't see that part yet.
	Well, here's what happens.
	You land on Mars where these stains are, and there are areas, by the way... Fine, now let's say you find water.
	How close to the surface is the water?
	Let's say it's close.
	Let's say it's easy.
	Fine, you find water.
	Okay.
	What does water give you?
	Water gives you oxygen.
	Yes.
	Right?
	So you don't have to take a lot of oxygen.
	Right.
	Water gives you water.
	Right.
	You know, one human being takes how many kilograms per day to live?
	Yeah, but where do your hamburgers come from?
	Well, you take it as freeze-dried food.
	But you can also, if you want to live as a colony, you build greenhouses.
	True.
	If you've got water, you've got hydrogen and oxygen.
	We know from the Viking element list, you've got all the other stuff.
	To assemble a biosphere again, the key missing element was the water.
	If there's enough water there, particularly if it's mixed with other things, you filter out the other things, you know, like they're having to do in the space station.
	You know, they take up water and then they don't even recycle it.
	They kind of dump it into space because they don't need to recycle it in the space station, but you need to recycle on a long mission to Mars or else you'd have to take a huge amount of weight.
	Sure.
	If there's water there, it's again the, you know, the Lewis and Clark model.
	Lewis and Clark did not take everything with them.
	They ate along the way.
	They hunted along the way.
	Well, you can't hunt on Mars, but you can grow things.
	You can grow chickens.
	You can grow, you know, the soy burgers.
	You can grow all kinds of plants, corn and soybeans and other things, provided you've got water.
	They would be able to extract enough oxygen from the water for their needs and for greenhouses and or whatever else?
	Absolutely.
	But what else does water give you?
	It gives you rocket fuel.
	Hydrogen.
	Hydrogen and oxygen.
	Yes.
	You split it with solar energy, or nuclear energy, or hyperdimensional energy, you know, one of these gadgets you don't think exists, which do, and you have all the rocket fuel you'd ever want.
	All I ask is you deliver me one.
	All right.
	You're on.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	I'm awaiting.
	Okay.
	The point is that with water, known supply, able to be seen on the images, where you can
	land there on the map and know you can drill down three feet and get to it, you have licked
	the problem of the manned Mars problem, and you have made it incredibly cheap.
	Zubrin has got a neat idea.
	By the way, have you ever talked to him?
	Have you ever had him on the show?
	No.
	You should have Robert Zubrin.
	In fact, you should have both of us, and we should go over this model and have him look
	at it with you kind of like the arbiter, as to how it helps him politically accomplish
	his dream, which is to get men and women to Mars quick.
	Richard, what would a manned presence on Mars do for us?
	Well, in the long term, if we're really going to allow sub-planet Earth and we're going to do dumb, dumb, stupid things, you know, if the climate's going to hell in a handbasket and chemtrails are a desperate effort to paper it over and keep us all fat and happy until it's too hot, it's our lifeboat.
	And I frankly think that NASA has been working on this for a long time, quietly and gently, and we've published many.
	Now, that would imply they know in all likelihood, or perhaps positively or absolutely, we're going to need a lifeboat.
	That's right.
	Now, if you go to Enterprise, if you go to the top of our page, you will see this logo.
	In fact, can you do that while we're talking about this?
	I want to comment on something, all right?
	Go to Enterprise main page.
	Okay, I'm working on it.
	At the very top, under the Now Hear This, We have a rectangle.
	And we say in the rectangle, attention, in this year of discovery, 2001, the Enterprise mission announces the launching of a major new research initiative that will forever change the way you and the world looks at the origins of Mars.
	Prepare to be swept away by the tides of Mars.
	Now look at the thing on the left, the logo.
	Yes.
	That's the official NASA JPL logo for the Mars Surveyor Program.
	And look at Mars.
	Yes, I'm looking.
	Okay.
	It's half modern Mars and half... And where is the ocean?
	Yes, indeed.
	It's clustered in one little area.
	Right.
	Like a tidal marsh.
	It absolutely is, yes.
	Take a look at it, folks.
	It's true.
	Now, one of the cool things in our paper is that we have a painting by Arthur Clarke.
	My dear friend, Arthur.
	About ten years ago, he published a book called The Snows of Olympus.
	That's back when computers were kind of newer, and he was all jazzed by something called Vista Pro, which allowed him to mock up synthetic worlds in the computer.
	Right.
	And he chose Mars, and he did scene after scene after scene, and he was entranced by Olympus Mons.
	Olympus Mons is this huge volcano, the size of Arizona or Kansas, Dorothy, sitting on the top of the Tharsis Bulge.
	At 19.5 degrees, by the way.
	That's also in this model.
	And around this huge volcano, the biggest in the solar system, I mean, one volcano the size of Arizona?
	Give me a break!
	That's enormous!
	Now we understand because it was extruded in the regime of the tidal influence of Planet 5.
	But around this huge volcano, there is an enormous cliff, Art, 22,000 feet high.
	22,000 feet!
	Big cliff.
	That's one hell of a hang gliding cliff, right?
	Oh, it sure is.
	Nobody's been able to explain this cliff.
	It is our proposal that this cliff was because Olympus stuck up above the ocean.
	And that cliff is where the water, for hundreds of millions of years, beat against the shore,
	like the White Cliffs of Dover, and eroded those basalt lava flows into vertical or semi-vertical
	cliffs.
	They're actually 23rd degree angles.
	Over hundreds of millions of years.
	When Arthur did the Snows of Olympus ten years ago, he painted a scene, which we have in
	the paper, of stars surrounded by an ocean beating at those cliffs.
	Now he claims that that's what will happen if we terraform a future Mars and melt the
	ice caps and the water rises.
	Right.
	The problem is, boys and girls, that under current conditions, the waters could never get as high as the Farses Bulge.
	The bulge is too high!
	It sticks up 25 kilometers in the sky!
	So, how could he know there might have been an ocean, or could be an ocean, to lap at those cliffs, to create those cliffs?
	That's why I put the picture in the paper, because I think Arthur knows A little more than he's been told.
	Well, I've always been very good at that kind of predictive science fiction.
	In fact, we're sending him his own very special copy of this paper, and I will be able to tell you in a few days what he thinks.
	He'll either think we're totally cracked, or I think most reasonable people will look at this... No, I don't think you're totally cracked.
	I think this is quite reasonable.
	I'm not as sure of the fifth planet that you talk about.
	The rest of this really does make sense.
	Well, but here's our problem.
	If you've got... You need the fifth planet.
	I know.
	You need a big guy from Mars to be a ventilator.
	I understand.
	So, that's what tells me that Tom has been right.
	Now, has he been right about it blowing up?
	Or has he just been right about its existence?
	It kind of doesn't matter.
	All right?
	Actually, it'd be kind of cool if we find that planets can blow up, because then we can find out ways to keep them from blowing up.
	You know, knowledge is important.
	Very important?
	I would prefer the model where planets don't blow up.
	Well, either way, you've got to live with the universe you've got.
	So if that's the universe we have, we need to know it, and Mars Odyssey, with those radiation measurements, will tell us.
	And you know the other neat thing it's going to tell us, Art?
	When it happened.
	Because what's the key signature of radioactive elements?
	They have half-lives.
	That's right.
	Which means you can reel back the clock.
	That's right.
	Well, maybe this latest craft will tell us that.
	Listen, Richard, we're right at the end of the program.
	Is there anything you'd like to promo?
	Well, go to the web and read the paper.
	Obviously, we want people to politic the planetary science community and NASA to look at this seriously.
	If you want to know the backstory, in other words, if all the work we've done on Cydonia means anything in this context now, you might want to take a look at the Monuments of Mars or the video series we have.
	There's an 800 number, which is 1-800-350-4639.
	which is 1-800-350-4639.
	That's 1-800-350-4639.
	And the new 2001 edition of Monuments, with some of this neat stuff in it,
	will be going to the printer in September, and available probably a month after.
	Alright, that's 1-800-350-4639.
	Wanted to get you to promo something for this gift you have given us.
	I hope a lot of people go and do the reading and I'm sure some of them Richard, I promise you, We'll get back to me.
	I bet they do.
	I bet they do, too.
	And when they do, perhaps we'll arrange some sort of debate, perhaps we'll arrange another guest or two to come on with you, and we'll find out what they think of this new model.
	This should be taken seriously and should be addressed at that level.
	I understand.
	Wonderful night, Richard.
	Thank you, as always.
	Thank you, my friend.
	Good night.
	All right, that's Richard C. Hoagland, and That was a lot about Mars, wasn't it?
	Tomorrow night, Sean David Morton will be here.
	Next week, we'll resume the five-hour schedule.

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