Art Bell

All Episodes

Previous Next

Aug. 9, 2001 - Art Bell

02:40:51

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard C. Hoagland - Monuments of Mars

Participants

Main voices

48:08

richard c hoagland

01:28:31

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		What do Mel Gibson and the Coral Capsule have in common?
unidentified		Find out in the After Dark News from the high desert and the great American Southwest Navy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be across the world, from coast to coast and well beyond.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M., and I'm Mark Bell.
		Howdy do, all you chosen ones out there.
		Great to be here tonight.
		Next hour, Richard C. Hoagland will be here.
		He claims to have solved the mystery of Mars.
		No small claim.
		Listen, as we sail over 500 affiliates now nationwide, I would like to welcome WCBX in Martinsville, Virginia.
		900 on the AM dial of Martinsville.
		And guess this, folks?
		We thought they had been there earlier, but tonight, I really, really, really would like to welcome WTNT.
		Interesting call letters for Washington, D.C., wouldn't you say?
		Washington, Bethesda.
		570 on the dial.
		That should carry and carry and carry.
		570 on the dial.
		Washington, D.C., and the Bethesda area.
		WTNT.
		ENT.
		All right.
		I want to get to open lines fairly soon this hour, but a couple of things, a few things to get in here.
		President Bush, as you know, said Thursday night he is, in fact, going to support federal funding for limited medical research on embryonic stem cells.
		And in months of anguish on the diverse issue, Bush said his decision balanced concerns about protecting life and improving life.
		I've made this decision with great care and pray it's the right one, Bush said in a primetime speech from his Texas ranch.
		I think he made, all in all, probably a good decision.
		I have a feeling that the pro-life forces on the right are not going to feel that way at all.
		We'll see.
		A Palestinian suicide bomber detonated a nail-studded explosive inside a crowded Jerusalem pizzeria at lunchtime on Thursday.
		It killed 15 people, wounded 90 more.
		There will be retribution, and I fear, soon, a Mideast war.
		NASA has delayed the shuttle launch.
		Guess why?
		Thunderstorms.
		But we'll see.
		And indeed, the weather is a story.
		The heat wave that has baked much of the country for days set more records Thursday.
		The Mercury reaching 102 in New York, 103 in Newark, breaking the record for the date of 100 set in both cities in 1949, up where my network is in Oregon, 108 degrees hotter than it was here near Death Valley.
		Here's a couple of emails I thought you might like to hear.
		Art, here in Ontario, we've had 15 heat records broken this week, coupled not too ironically with record severe smog alert days.
		Temperature has been about 36 to 7 Celsius or something like 97 or 98 degrees Fahrenheit with humidity they say we're well into the 105s and to top it all off at the beginning of the week appeared thousands and thousands if not millions of tiny fruit fly type bugs flying around everywhere in Toronto.
		I mean there was not a person walking around in the sixth largest city in North America that wasn't swiping at the bugs, wiping them off their eyes, mouths, blowing them out of their noses.
		I mean these bugs were everywhere like rain.
		When I got home there were hundreds of them mostly dead in my pockets and all over the outside of my clothes.
		At first I thought it must be normal somehow and it was just one of those strange bug days that I'd never really noticed before and these bugs had all hatched at the same time or something.
		But the paper says they're aphids and this had never happened in the city before.
		It said had something to do with the migrating because of the heat wave or something like that.
		Guess what?
		They were back again today.
		And then I got this.
		Hey art.
		Hello from northern Italy.
		That's where I am and these hailstorms are incredible.
		It damages cars and homes all the time now.
		Three weeks ago there was a tornado by my home near Milan.
		A tornado is really unheard of here.
		I've lived in Seattle for many years, never seen weather like this.
		Locals say it's the weirdest they've ever seen.
		And so it goes on and on and on.
		I get all kinds of email faxes and stories about the bizarre weather.
		Wake up, everybody.
		The change is underway.
		Investigators in north central Montana are baffled by a string of cattle mutilations since mid-June prompting one agency to seek help from a group that studies unconventional theories including UFOs.
		Ranchers in Dubai and Fort Shaw have reported four cattle deaths in which portions of the animals' faces were cut or peeled off and eyeballs and genitals removed.
		The animals had not been shot.
	Investigators say whoever is responsible left very few clues behind.
	The killings are similar to a string of cattle deaths in the 1970s in the same general area in which more than 60 cattle in five counties were found mutilated.
	Those remains remain unsolved and prompted speculation at the time that some of the deaths were the work of aliens or satanic cults of some sort.
	But none of that really works out.
	You might want to know nobody has ever been charged and convicted of doing any of this stuff.
	Column Cullerher, Deputy Administrator of the National Institute for Discovery Science in Las Vegas, you know him, he's on here all the time, confirmed Tuesday the Sheriff's Office had contacted the Institute for help.
	They heard about some of our previous research from a retired deputy sheriff in the area, said Column.
	The group describes itself as a research organization that studies a variety of unconventional scientific theories, while you certainly know about NIDS, don't you?
	One of you writes in email, Art, could these animal mutilations have anything to do With cloning.
	Going after reproductive organs and other parts like udders, eyeballs, tongues.
	Well, it sounds somewhat similar to what they did to clone Dolly, the sheep in the UK.
	With Dolly.
	They took a cell from a sheep's udder and by using electricity combined it with a cell from another sheep.
	I don't know.
	But I thought it could be an interesting theory, and it is an interesting theory, isn't it, as we prepare, I guess, on a ship offshore to clone 200 human beings.
	You know about that story.
	Ah, but we do indeed live in strange times, don't we, folks?
	Anyway, I want to get the lines open very early tonight, so that's coming up in a moment.
	All right, let us move to open lines.
	Anything goes, talk radio, anything you want to talk about is fair game.
	Those were just a few suggestions at the beginning.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello, Art.
	Hello, sir.
	I'm going from Boomton, New York.
	Okay.
	Where it's kind of hot here, but still alive.
	Yeah, it's been a pretty good heat wave, huh?
	Listen, I want to do a follow-up on that story you did about the guy that hooked himself up to his lawn furniture and took off with balloons.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember you said you like stories like that.
		Well, I've got the original guy.
		Back in around 1954, an airline pilot was coming into Albany Airport, Albany, New York.
		Right.
		And he called the tower and said that he was looking at a guy through his binoculars sitting on a bicycle tire, eating a lettuce and tomato sandwich, just waving at him.
unidentified		Wait, wait, wait.
unidentified		Hold it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sitting on a bicycle bire.
		On a bicycle tire.
		On a bicycle tire.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it was suspended by about 20 weather balloons.
		Now, was this bicycle tire horizontal, allowing him to sit in it?
		Yeah, he was sitting horizontally on it.
		Suspended by 20 weather balloons?
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he was eating what?
unidentified		He was eating a lettuce and tomato sandwich, and he was waving at the pilot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And at what altitude roughly was all this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would say probably maybe 2,000 feet or so.
unidentified		The state police immediately took after him.
unidentified		How?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did they do that?
		Well, I don't know.
		They tracked him, and they finally found him bouncing along in a garden.
		What?
		Bouncing along in a garden?
unidentified		Yeah, trying to get down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The ground winds were pretty gusty, and he kept blowing them back up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So one of the state police grabbed him, pulled him down, and they dragged the two of them through a tomato patch.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Didn't make the state policeman too happy because he'd put on a brand new uniform that day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Now, I worked for a TV station at that time, WTRI, a little UHF station in Albany.
		And we brought this guy in for an interview.
		Well, it turned out the guy was very intelligent.
		His name was Garrett Cashman.
		A very intelligent-sounding fella, very well-dressed, you know, just an adventurer.
		And the upshot of that was that Pepsi Cola, I think, or it may have been Coca-Cola, picked him up for an advertising campaign for some time.
		I mean, he used to appear at fairs and different events.
unidentified		And I remember when they came into the state, they said, well, how did you get down?
unidentified		Once you got up there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he had himself a pocket full of, I think it was BBs or I don't know what do you call it, ball bearings, and a slingshot, which a guy in the lawn furniture had a BB gun.
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Either one would work.
unidentified		Yeah, and so it worked.
		But anyway, the guy became quite famous over this.
		And he was in the, I don't know if you remember the, they used to call them men's magazines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They had Argosy and True Magazine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
unidentified		Yeah, and they had big full-page spreads with him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They had an article in them, you know, two or three-page article about the guy.
		You know, it's something I'd be tempted.
		I actually would love to try it myself.
		You figure it would take about 20 weather balloons, huh?
unidentified		Well, I don't remember, not 20 or so.
		And the thing of it is, I'd love to know whatever happened to the guy.
		He'd be a guy in his 70s probably now.
		And the Albany Papers would have a story on it, or the Schenectady Papers, New York.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably in Microfish Archives by the way.
unidentified		Yeah, well, I imagine, because as they say, he got quite a lot of notoriety over the thing.
		And he wasn't a dummy.
		I mean, he knew what he was doing, you know.
		Would you do it?
		Huh?
		Would I get on a bicycle tire?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, not necessarily a bicycle tire.
unidentified		He also corrected he had a pillow where the hub of the thing was, because he got a little uncomfortable if you didn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, I can imagine that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I can imagine a lawn chair was perhaps more intelligent in terms of raw comfort.
unidentified		Well, yeah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I really might be tempted to.
		I mean, you've got to admit, floating in that way would really be cool.
		Yeah, I would imagine it would be the thrill of a lifetime.
		There would be dangers, however.
		Here in the desert, for example, we have these wonderful, calm, beautiful, nothing stirs kind of days.
		But then here in the desert near Death Valley, the wind can come up with zero warning, and you can go from zero, I mean absolute calm, to 30 miles an hour in about one minute.
		And my luck, I'd get up there.
		Anyway, you get the picture.
unidentified		I can understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, listen, I really appreciated the story.
unidentified		Well, I know, I wish if anybody remembers him, I wish they'd call in because I'd love to know whatever happened to the guy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right, well, let's find out.
		Thank you very much for the, I had no idea there was a precursor to Larry's lawn chair adventure.
		This is really something.
		I mean, you've got to admit, it's probably a guy thing.
unidentified		Maybe not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe a lot of gals would want to try it too.
unidentified		Would you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is pretty tempting.
		I don't think I'd go overboard and put up enough balloons to carry me to some gigantic great altitude.
		I'd want to kind of just Float.
		You know, above the trees, maybe, and certainly above the power lines, but not much higher.
		About like that, and sort of drift across the valley on a nice day.
		That would be a trip, wouldn't it?
		But somehow something always goes wrong, and you're waving at 747s at full cruise altitude.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello?
unidentified		Yeah, you know, in regard to the balloonist with the lawn chair, I don't know if it's a case of art imitating life or life imitating art, but that was the thing of an A-Team episode several years back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, listen, sir.
		I don't know whether you heard it on the program, but one night we found a man who had the actual audio from the ascent.
		In other words, Larry had a radio with him, and he was communicating with his wife and with authorities, and we played all of that on the air.
		Were you aware of that?
unidentified		Unfortunately, I missed that.
unidentified		When I'm a long-haul truck driver, and there are dead spots, believe it or not, Miss Nation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One of these nights, I will play that again because it's clever.
unidentified		Please do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And do something about getting on the air in Arizona because I tend all the way from Phoenix into Barso.
unidentified		I don't get to pick you up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're kidding.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, why don't you try KDWN, for example, in Las Vegas?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why don't you try 720?
unidentified		I don't get them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about 770 from Albuquerque?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That should certainly work.
unidentified		I'll try that one.
unidentified		I got you on 550 right now, but I'm going to lose you in about another 15 miles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, try 770.
unidentified		770, I will do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or maybe even 640 KFI from Los Angeles.
unidentified		Believe it or not, they don't come through to the desert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, just keep trying those lower end stations, and you'll find us, I guarantee.
unidentified		Oh, I will, especially now that you've got so many more stations coming up, it's going to be easier and easier to find you as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In excess of 500 and building.
		Actually, we're chasing rush right now.
		And whether or not we make it is really immaterial to me.
		Going in excess of 500 affiliates nationwide really is some kind of record for a long-form radio show, and I'm very, very, very proud of that.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, how are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm okay, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		This is Rich in Rochester, Michigan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Rich, we've got static on here.
unidentified		Oh, I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you hear all that?
unidentified		Oh, yeah, a little bit.
unidentified		Question for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Real quick.
unidentified		When the remote viewers do their remote things, is there like a time frame that they can how far they can go back?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, answer for you is no.
		There is no limitation to remote viewing, either in space, although that is disputed by some, in other words, how far you can go, or time.
		And I believe there is no dispute about that at all.
		In other words, you can remote view into the past or into the future, or naturally, the present as well.
		No limitations with regard to time.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
		I think we've got a non-functional cell phone there.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
		I was wondering, you know, MTV has a reality show.
		It's like called Fear.
		Have you ever seen it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		Don't you think it's interesting?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I would do it a little differently.
unidentified		Yeah, it's kind of cheesy.
unidentified		It's like they try and make it more psychologically like the kids are freaking themselves out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it should be a long-form thing.
		I think it should be a real haunted house.
		I think that the network doing it should really screw with them big time.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you know, with all the special effects capabilities that they have these days.
		And then there would be no way that people inside could discern if it was real or fake.
		And the idea would be they could leave any time.
		And I guarantee you, quite a few would.
unidentified		Yeah.
		I'd also like to see the footage they have with all those infrared cameras and everything they have set up everywhere, you know?
		Sure.
		To see if they picked up anything.
		Well, I just thought you'd be interested in seeing it.
		I was wondering if you ever watched it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you bet, of course.
unidentified		Okay, great.
unidentified		Have a good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, thank you.
		I'm a big fan of reality TV, which a lot of people hate.
		Even Big Brother, I watched that.
		People pan that boy.
		That got a terrible review in TV Guide, just terrible.
		But it is interesting because it's a study of human nature.
		It's kind of like putting all the rats together and watching them eat themselves alive.
		And it's really not all that much different from that.
		And so it's kind of an interesting study, despite how it's been panned.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
		Hello?
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air?
unidentified		Is it Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and you're on the air.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Your voice does sound different, like always.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they say.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Good to hear from you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Junior radio officer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And actually, I'm hearing from you.
unidentified		It's off.
unidentified		I'm on a handheld phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can tell.
unidentified		That's not the best one.
unidentified		I've got a.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, sir, go ahead.
unidentified		Well, I'm a big cat lover, too, and I really like those pictures you put up of Yeti every now and then.
		Yes.
		But do you still have the deer where some of the listeners have sent their cat photos in?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we had a section that we called the cat box, and I've been trying to encourage Keith Rowland, my webmaster, to reinstitute it.
		So we're going to do that.
		I mean, there are a million good pictures out there, and so we're going to get it back.
unidentified		Oh, I know.
unidentified		You know, I have a cat, and you know, they say that cats are not very smart.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're full of crap.
unidentified		Oh, one of my cats.
		One of my cats can say a word in sign language, and he says tuna.
		And what he does, I've taught him to raise his paw and shake his paw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that means tuna?
unidentified		And that means tuna.
		Because I can show him a kind of tuna fish.
		And he'll raise his paw and tuna.
		I can say, say tuna, Tigger.
		And he'll raise his paw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		And just shake it.
unidentified		It is the cutest thing you've ever seen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, you know what we're going to do one night, sir?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're going to have a night where animals talk on the program.
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where your animal may talk.
unidentified		So I'll tell you what.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You get your cat working on actually staying tuna, and we'll make your cat a star.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something like that, anyway.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		That's what we used to make of the grave.
		So I smiled at you and smiled.
		I wish someone smiled until you were going to work all over the world.
		This is Coast to Coast AM on the Premier Radio Networks.
		This is Coast AM on the Premier Networks.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
		The wild chart line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Arpel on the Premier Radio Network.
		Those are the magic numbers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reporting, everybody, open lines to the top of the hour.
		And then Richard C. Hopeland.
		I'm Arpell from the network that absolutely owns the nice.
		All right, back into the great stem cell pool out there and open lines.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Good evening or morning or something.
unidentified		Good evening, or morning, I suppose.
unidentified		As I said, I just came across your show, and it's rather amazing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Washington, D.C. Really?
unidentified		WRC.
		And this used to be 1260, it's what it is, 1260.
		It used to be a jazz station.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We bounced all over the dial in Washington, D.C. But finally, we appear to be settling down in not one, but two places with the addition of WTNT.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah, and of course this particular one, WWRC, is very well received all over the area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, indeed so.
unidentified		So you will be successful with that.
		And as a matter of fact, I was very amazed to hear that you've been on for years.
		And it seems like I've wasted a lot of my lifetime without ever hearing you before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is why we have archives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you have a computer, you can dig back.
unidentified		I see.
		Well, anyway, in spite of that, I did catch a couple of your shows or three, and they're very captivating.
		And, of course, it's kind of tough from people who have to be up at 6 o'clock in the morning to get your tree at 4 o'clock in the morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Especially back near the nation's capital.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		G.I. don't even come on until about 1 o'clock in the morning.
unidentified		That's right, exactly.
		And then you get really interesting around 3 or 4.
		And then, of course, that's the end of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, my advice is if something else...
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Well, as a matter of fact, I did get the tape part of your Dr. Day show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And she is something else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She is something else.
unidentified		And very well known among the doctors.
		Yes.
		And everybody says she's got a point, but they don't want to be quoted on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
		If you go to most doctors and you talk to them about what she did, for example, to cure her own cancer, they'll all, almost all of them will absolutely agree.
		But boy, will they say that officially?
unidentified		No, of course not.
		But you can't argue with the fact that she did and how she did it.
		And that's all there is to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you're absolutely right.
		There's no argument about it.
		She did it.
		Thank you.
		Thank you very much.
		Yes, now on the air, not one, but with two affiliates in our nation's capital.
unidentified		That's good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildguardline, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Good.
unidentified		Morning, how are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am just spiffy, sir.
unidentified		Well, I'm calling from Galveston right on the beach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, yes.
unidentified		740 KTRH.
		Right.
		And my question is, have you heard anything back from the guy who found the big metal cylindrical object in the mountains?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Metal cylindrical object in the mountains.
unidentified		In I think it was either Ohio or Kentucky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hate to say this, but you stumped me.
unidentified		You had a show on about right before you went on vacation that was about a guy who discovered.
unidentified		He was the one who was doing the excavation of the mountains and found something in the mountains.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could that have been somebody who was a sub-host while I was gone?
unidentified		It could have been.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would account for my not recalling it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A cylindrical metal object in the mountains.
unidentified		They found a big cylindrical metal object in a mountain somewhere in Kentucky or Ohio.
unidentified		And they believe it to either be a buried UFO or an undiscovered missile silo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the movies, I know they take metal objects like that and open them up, and something inevitably crawls out, usually between midnight and about 3 a.m. and eats the people in the lab, and then gets into the woods and starts eating the locals.
unidentified		Yes, the movies are always like that, aren't they?
		Yes.
		And the other thing that I had to say was that all this weather stuff that's going on here lately, if you look in Revelations or in the Bible even, it says that there will be no more water but fire next time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think this represents the beginning of the end of the apocalypse?
unidentified		Not really.
		It's the beginning of the opening of the seals.
		And that is the beginning of the end of apocalypse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So somebody opened the weather seal.
unidentified		Basically, yeah, if you look at the way things are going, pieces being taken from the earth, the bug thing up there where you were talking about.
		Sure.
		Bugs coming down and killing the crops.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That will go right along hand in hand with the change in weather.
unidentified		Yes, it would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear you have an advisor in the background.
unidentified		That's my wife.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
unidentified		Always advising me on things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, thank you both very much.
		Don't ask me how I knew, but I knew years ago the weather was about to dramatically and profoundly change.
		I simply knew it.
		It's one of those knowing things.
		I knew it was going to change.
		We are now in the middle of that change.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the or hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, it's Mike from Cleveland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Mike.
unidentified		I got a question about Splim Snow Research.
unidentified		Are we going too far in our scientific endeavors?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, Mike, I'm almost convinced that there is no such thing as too far, and you're not going to stop science.
unidentified		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're just not going to stop science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And science has proven to us, given every opportunity, that even if it's chancy, you know, even if it's a button they might push or something they might do that would endanger the larger population, their egos are bigger than whatever perceived danger they've got, and they will plunge ahead and do it.
unidentified		Got the education and the willpower to do this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		Education is not exactly a complete thing.
		When you come out of academia, you've got a certain level of knowledge, but you don't have the experience and wisdom to balance that with.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if there's a button to push, my friend, they will push it.
		If there's a vial to open, they will open it.
		And we can, I guess, argue about the advisability of doing stem cell research or any other sort of on-the-edge research, all we want, but they are going to move ahead whether or not we like it.
		West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
unidentified		Hi, this is Tammy.
		Tammy.
		Tammy in Bellingham, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Tammy.
unidentified		I just want you to know that my family in Canada, six and a half years ago, told me about your show.
		Oh.
		And since I'm a nighttime person anyway, I was flipping through the channels and I got to hearing your show.
		And I really like your show.
		And my family in Canada, we really like your show.
		They really like your show, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure even what my show is.
		It's a mishmash of all kinds of things.
		It kind of blurs science and science fiction and moves back and forth and can be anything at any time, which is something that people learn after a while.
		When they first hear the program, they're kind of confused by what we're doing.
unidentified		But getting to know you on the show, it's like I know you.
		You know, I know you, but I don't know you.
		And Ramona, and I, hello, Ramona.
		I wanted to say hello to her, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if she wants to step in here and yell hello, she can do that.
unidentified		Anyway, I just got to know you a little bit, and you're really honest.
unidentified		And a lot of us callers really appreciate you being so honest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I try.
unidentified		And you're really courageous.
		I like how courageous you are.
		And I know, I don't know really, we don't know very much about your wife, but she must be very honest and courageous as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you what I'll do.
		Since she didn't step in, she may be occupied with something else.
		But I've done it in the past.
		One of these nights, I will put her on the air and let her tell you about herself.
unidentified		That would be really nice.
		That would be really nice.
		Also, I want to say, yes, thank you for talking about the weather changes.
		And thank you for keeping us listeners informed about the worldly news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, here's what I would say in furtherance about the weather, and I've said this many times.
		I'm going to say it again.
		The weather is changing.
		The change is already underway.
		It's going to be a profound change.
		And we should not argue about whether it's occurring any longer because even the experts now agree it is occurring.
		What we should do is begin to plan for it so that whatever is going to occur, we can make it through to the other side.
		In other words, if the farm belt begins to fail, we need to begin making alternative plans right now.
		And maybe, unlike other civilizations that have come and gone and have been decimated by weather changes, short, fast weather changes that we appear to be on the edge of right now, our civilization has a chance of making it through.
		All we need to do is to begin to plan.
		First time call online, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
unidentified		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm all right, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		My name's Dale, and I'm in Illinois.
		I'm a truck driver.
		I'm rolling through the night toward Mason City, Iowa.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And my question for you, Art, is I'm sure you're aware of this coming, they're coming out with this digital satellite radio for cars and stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am aware of it, yes.
unidentified		Is there any chance your program's going to be available through that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, there's a good chance.
unidentified		That answers my question because I'm going to buy that just specifically.
		I'm going to subscribe specifically so I can pull you in wherever I'm at.
		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I imagine it's going to be something like that is going to, I think, mainly people like yourself, you know, long-haul truck drivers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I can absolutely understand why you would want it.
unidentified		Well, I tell you, Art, the way these trucks are built with so much fiberglass in the cabs and stuff anymore, it's really tough to get anything on AM radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's true.
		You're exactly right.
		There's no ground plane.
		And there are ways around that.
		The Sea Crane Company manufactures a really, really good antenna.
		One of the drawbacks of Any AM antenna is that it's short.
		AM radio really requires a very long antenna, and it's very short.
		Even a car antenna is very short.
		And so if you have a coil there that electrically makes it longer, you're going to hear a lot more.
		And they've got one like that.
		You might want to check into it.
unidentified		I'll do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir?
unidentified		Thank you, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, and take care.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm Laura from Miami.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Nora.
unidentified		Laura.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Laura?
unidentified		Yeah, Laura.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry about that, Laura, okay?
unidentified		That's okay.
		I knew you liked reality TV.
		Have you watched Fear Factor?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Someone just asked me that a few minutes ago.
unidentified		Yes.
		Oh, geez.
		I'm sorry.
		I must have been out of the room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, indeed, Laura.
unidentified		What about Murder in Small Town X?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That I have not seen.
unidentified		That's on Fox on, let me see, what is it?
unidentified		Tuesdays at 9 o'clock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reality TV?
unidentified		Yeah, reality TV.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no kidding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll have to check it out.
unidentified		Yeah, that's cool.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I kind of like Fear Factor.
unidentified		Yeah, did you see the episode where they had to eat boiled buffalo testicles?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I did.
unidentified		That was gross.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And both gals, I think, bailed out, right?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Oh, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it looked gross.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think, I mean, $50,000 is a lot of money, but it's not that much.
unidentified		Right, absolutely.
		Oh, and I have a cat, too, named Chi-Chi.
		Chi-Chi.
		Yeah, Chi-Chi.
		She's so cute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, cats are cute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Some fellow called earlier and said, well, a lot of people say cats are dumb.
unidentified		Oh, no.
unidentified		They're smart.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cats are far smarter than other animals.
unidentified		Right.
		Well, my dog's pretty smart, too.
		She's a nice girl.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just that the owner has to be smart enough to see the subtle brilliance of felines.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate the call.
		Thank you.
		And that's what they do have.
		They have a kind of a subtle brilliance.
		And if you don't recognize subtle brilliance, then I suppose they seem dumb to you.
		But you've got to look for the small things.
		If you look carefully in a smart cat's eyes, the intellect is unmistakable.
		Easter the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		All right, it's Dave Coffee from Scranton, Pennsylvania.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Dave.
unidentified		Hi.
		What happened to the guy from the day you had your tooth pull out?
		You were going to have someone on from Oregon or reporting?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he has simply been moved, and he will be on Monday.
unidentified		Monday, yeah.
		His book's very interesting.
		I ordered his book from Amazon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he'll be on Monday, this coming Monday.
unidentified		How did you make out with your tooth?
		didn't mention it.
		I understand that, so I didn't hear you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was under, you see, it was this, I had, boy, 1995 or 6, I had this root canal done so they could put a bridge on.
		And they put the bridge on, and they put it on with super dupa glue or whatever, so the bridge didn't come off.
		So they had to drill down through the bridge into the tooth.
		And it turns out that lucky me, most normal people have two roots, right?
		Right.
		Well, in that tooth, there were two roots with two branches.
		So I had four roots.
		And when they originally did the root canal, they only did a root canal on two roots.
		So the other two roots decided that they would do what roots do, and so they had to drill down through anyway.
unidentified		Lucky you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lucky me.
unidentified		I sent you a link also about vampire researchers from Great Britain and how to get in touch with them.
		What you have an idea for a show?
		Did you ever look at it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I really would like to do a show on vampires.
unidentified		I sent you a link on it.
		There's a group of folks from the England area, Great Britain, England, the UK, and how to contact them.
		They have a whole website up there, and they're really into that.
		They travel around the world, and I sent you a link on how to contact them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, our British listeners and guests are going to be more accessible soon.
		Coming up next month, I think, we're going to be on London Broadcasting.
		We're going to have a full five-hour show on London Broadcasting.
		It's going to be interesting to see what the British think of the program.
		So I'll check into it.
		Vampires.
		I don't know.
		Are they myth?
		Or is there some reality at the base of the myth?
		Certainly some of it, or even a lot of it, is myth.
		But is all of it myth?
		I don't know.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Good afternoon.
		Good evening, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		This is George from San Jose.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, George.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		I've sent you several emails in the past about Over Unity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I don't know if you saw the one I sent you about the company who's coming out with the whatever you have out in the background.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn it off, please.
		TV, huh?
		Over Unity.
		You know, I have a real problem with Over Unity because I don't think it's possible, or at least I've not yet seen it demonstrated, even at the toy level.
		I don't want to hear talk about it.
		I don't want to see drawings.
		I want to see something that actually demonstrates over Unity.
unidentified		These people have on the website that I sent you along with the email, they show you demonstrating these two machines that they have.
		One is a generator and one is a motor.
		And it's really interesting.
		I mean, if you just look at the website, if you can find that email.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
		I appreciate you.
		Call, sir.
		Bring me a working model.
		I mean, let me just lay it out for everybody, all right?
		I'm sorry.
		I don't believe it.
		Overunity just is not possible.
		Now, I nevertheless remain open-minded not to talk and not to drawings and not to schematics, but to a device.
		And if you really have such a device, then I've got over 500 radio stations, And I'm not afraid of a damn soul.
		So if you bring this device to me, and it really is over unity, I would be glad to give you five hours, four if it's real soon, five hours, though, beginning next week, of a national forum to blast your news to the entire country, in fact, to the world, and to all of the oil companies and all of the big concerns.
		It would go berserk.
		I really could care less.
		If you've got it, and if you've really got the goods, then either ship it to me or bring it to me under armed guard.
		I would be glad to check into it, and then I will give you the biggest national forum you ever saw, and you can tell everybody about it.
		That's my offer.
		It's a simple one.
		There's no money involved.
		All you've got to do is get your magical over-unity device to me, and I will put you here on the radio, and that will lead to other large media appearances, and you will get your device in front of the world.
		That's the standing offer.
		But don't send me talk.
		Don't send me schematics.
		Don't send me pictures.
		Don't send me claims.
		Just either send or bring a device to me that actually achieves what you say it does.
		You need not leave it here.
		And I will make the appropriate measurements.
		Or if I'm not good enough scientifically to do it, I will have others step in who are.
		And I will give you the national form that will let you just tell the whole world about it.
		Now, that's the best offer I can think of.
		It really is the best offer I can think of.
		So there it is, out on the table.
		And we need not have any more talk about all of this.
		If you've got the goods, you get them here.
		I'll get it on the air.
		You'll be a billionaire.
		Maybe just a few months, but you'll be a billionaire.
		So that should either, you know, let's stop the talk and do the walk.
		I'm Ardell.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M., where if you'll stay tuned, Richard C. Hoagland is coming up next.
		We're going to talk a lot about Mars.
unidentified		Mars.
unidentified		Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once to NASA, now revered in the halls with, oh, you can't turn a corner in a hall at NASA without seeing a bust of Richard C. Ogland.
		A science advisor once to Walter C. Cronkite, an Angstrom Science Award winner, and for years a very important science adjunct to this program, here tonight saying, well, he said to me on the phone, he solved the mystery of Mars.
		That's quite a claim.
		Richard, welcome.
		Good evening, Art.
		Good evening.
		How are you feeling?
		Just spiffy, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Yeah, we actually probably have solved a lot of things.
		And what I want to do tonight is to set up a mystery.
		And as we go from half hour to half hour, unfold segments of it, and then maybe halfway through, because I know we're going to do an abbreviated show tonight, we'll give everybody the bottom line.
		But it's really pretty cool.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you review the recent news headlines with respect to Mars, the gas, and the life in the gas maybe in the controversy?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We see directly into the mystery.
		And, you know, for a lot of people, Art, they may not know why Mars is a mystery, so maybe we should start there.
		Maybe we should kind of quickly give people a thumbnail sketch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why is Mars a mystery?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because it's Earth, but it's not.
		I mean, for literally centuries, we have looked at it, you know, with the eye, you know, in the night sky is this reddish thing.
		By the way, I want to talk about your telescope in a little while.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because obviously you have now joined the pleasured ranks of those of us that actually look through real glass and at real mirrors, not at images and, you know, JPEGs and all that stuff.
unidentified		You know, it's the old-fashioned way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It really is something else.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it is, isn't it just totally another world?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a blowaway.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I'm sitting here looking out the bridge windows of Enterprise at this gorgeous, almost last quarter moon rising over my desert.
		And it's just breathtaking.
		And for people who live in cities, you know, the only way you're going to get to see the sky now is to get a telescope.
		And this one sounds like it's a pretty cool deal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it is.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I am not being paid to say this, okay?
		But I'm just so thrilled that you have joined the ranks of those of us for years who have frozen our buttons off in the middle of the winter to go out and look at Orion and other things.
		And there are all kinds of neat mysteries.
		And we will probably not have time tonight.
		But at some point, I need to introduce you to how to marry some of your gadgets to your telescope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I really want to do that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There is a whole body of knowledge and even websites of people who have taken camcorders and webcams.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, I've got all that stuff.
		I've even got night vision.
		I mean, I've got more stuff that I could marry if I could marry it, and I know there is a way.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It is so simple.
		There are people, for instance, there is a guy in Boston who works at the planetarium, which was the kind of competitor to the planetarium I worked at when I was in New England in Springfield.
		And he has published in Sky and Telescope several articles.
		I guess he's got a book now, and he's got a website, for how to shoot with a really relatively small telescope amazing views, not just of the big celestial objects, moon, planets, stuff like that, but he captures things like the space station and the shuttle and produces recognizable images through this shimmering sea of air we call the atmosphere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's following the space station, for example, which is very bright and very easy to see.
		It comes roaring over us here.
		And it's bright.
		It's as bright almost as Venus.
		And if you take a very strong pair of binoculars, you can even see the solar panels on it.
		You can see the shape.
		And so it's very exciting.
		My only problem, Richard, I mean, my advantage is I've got this webcam, so if I can get something married, I can put the shots up on the web and just let it continue to scroll.
		So I'm all for that.
		Listen, back to Mars.
		Why is Mars a mystery?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, because when you start out looking at it with the eye and then with a telescope, like for instance Percival Old did at the turn of the century, he thought he saw this faint webbing of artificial lines that indicate that there was somebody home, somebody building something, somebody digging something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The famous canals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The canals, yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which were actually discovered in 1877 by an Italian astronomer named Scaparelli.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, for 30, 40 years, up until the first couple of decades of this century, a little longer, everybody was intensely debating the canals on Mars like they have debated now Sidonia and the face and all that, because it looked as if with the technology we had, pretty good telescopes, that somebody might be doing massive global engineering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was the debate when I was a child, Richard.
		They were talking about the canals, and about half the scientists were saying, these are engineered canals for the moving of water on Mars.
		That's what everybody thought when I was a child.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		From the polar caps, yes.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the other half thought those first half were crazy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which is kind of the way the whole face on Mars thing is now divided.
		Half the folks think they're there, and somebody built them or built it, and there's an ancient civilization in ruins, and the other half thinks that us half, you know, because obviously I'm in that camp, are totally out to lunch.
		Well, as this debate has evolved, we suddenly entered the space age.
		This was now in 1957.
		And in the early mid-60s, in 65, we, the United States, the world, because we represented the world at that time, because the Russians had not been able to achieve this, we sent our first unmanned spacecraft to Mars called Mariner 4.
		And in July of 1965, on July 14th, Bastille Night, I created and orchestrated and conducted and hosted a five-hour show art, which was nominated for a Peabody, a radio show,
		which involved people from JPL and people from Harvard and people like Alan Hynek in an auditorium that I had set up in Springfield, Massachusetts, to celebrate and to inquire over the flyby of Mars by this first little unmanned spacecraft, Mariner 4.
		And it was that spacecraft which basically killed the Martian legend.
		It basically drove the spike into the whole Lowell idea of valiant Martians digging canals, preserving their dying civilization, etc., because it gave us the cratered Mars.
		It gave us the Mars which has basically no atmosphere.
		There's no air there.
		It's 1 100th of the air we're breathing.
		And it's the wrong kind of air.
		It's CO2 as opposed to oxygen.
		And it gave us this battered, ancient, cratered, lunar-type landscape that basically, in one fell swoop, killed all of the romance and the visions and the fantasies and the projections of literally dozens of generations of people who had come before because it showed us that Mars, if it ever had been alive, it was now dead.
		It's dead, Jim, and it really seemed dead.
		And then in 71, when we sent our first spacecraft to orbit called Mariner 9, the Martian legend kind of did a revival.
		It did a renaissance.
		Because that spacecraft, which went into orbit as opposed to just flying by in a few hours, it photographed over the next couple, three years, the whole planet at pretty good resolution.
		And it showed us that Mars was this amazing place that had incredible towering mountains, vast waters that looked like they had carved riverbeds and canyons.
		And it had polar caps, it had water, it had definite water ice.
		It had all the essences of potential life that had long gone.
		That maybe once it had been alive, it had been like the Earth, but in the ensuing billions of years of solar system history, it had taken a divergent path and it had died and we had not.
		And then everyone said, well, now we can do comparative planetology.
		We can take a look at Mars and see how planets die.
		And that was the condition that existed, that kind of, well, there was something there a long time ago, but nothing now, until Viking.
		Viking was 76.
		And I, of course, was one of the privileged few to actually be at JPL the night we landed the first Viking spacecraft.
		And I was sitting there at literally dawn.
		It was 5 o'clock in the morning Pacific time as we're landing on another planet for the first time.
		And those first pictures come in.
		And on my right is Gene Roddenberry, my dear friend who created Star Trek.
		And on my left is Eric Burgess, who, along with Arthur Clark and others, formed the British Interplanetary Society.
		And Eric actually wrote the first paper on unmanned probes to Mars way back in the 1930s.
		and there were like a thousand plus other people, newsmen and space groupies and scientists.
		It was just one of those incredible moments when everybody was looking at the dream.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not that incredible moment.
unidentified		What were the expectations?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we really didn't know what we would see when those first pictures came in.
		We knew we had a cold and kind of desolate place, but there was hope.
		I mean, Sagan, for instance, who was there, had insisted that the cameras have a function that allowed them to record movement because his greatest fear was that we would land during the day, we'd look out at, let's say, a desolate Arizona, New Mexico kind of landscape, and at night, you know, there'd be rumblings and shufflings and the IMUs, the little gyroscopes and accelerometers in the spacecraft would kind of detect footsteps.
		But there'd be no lights and there'd be no way to catch whoever was coming up and sniffing around the lander to see if anybody was home.
		So there was a feature built into the camera where you could basically take a series of still images and then play them back to detect motion.
		Sure.
		Like a motion detector.
		Sure.
		My first picture came in.
		It was of the footpad, which, I mean, I had argued myself with the engineers.
		Why the hell do you go all the way to Mars, sit down, and take your first picture looking down at the ground?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think I understand that one, so that you can calibrate and understand the resolution your camera has arrived with.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That, plus they wanted to see that there was some possibility that the spacecraft could sink into deep sand dunes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, we got this vision that they'd have this picture of the last, you know, the last few instance of picture showing the foot pads and the spacecraft being swallowed by dust and sand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, in other words, they see where the foot is, they get to look at the foot, and they test the resolution, they look at something recognizable at the end of the day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then it tells what makes sense.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		A second panorama, a few minutes later, because this thing did not take pictures like digital pictures now full frame.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It wiped them on vertically, line by line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, it's called slow scan.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Slow scan.
		And it went from left to right, and we literally sat there, 1,500 of us, holding our breath, watching this picture of Mars come in line by line by line.
		And it was, well, the really neat thing was when the whole thing had finished, Roddenberry, who's sitting to my right, leaps up and yells, cut, print.
		And I said, I don't know that man.
		He's not my friend.
unidentified		I don't know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, it was just an incredible, joyous moment because we finally were seeing the real Mars, and the real Mars looked like New Mexico.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And a few hours later, they got it calibrated so they got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's very good, Richard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it does look like New Mexico.
unidentified		It does.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Particularly, well, in places like Sedona, which is northern Arizona, which has red rocks.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I've always had this quiet suspicion, you know, as our work has progressed and we figured out that maybe we're from Mars, that the reason a lot of people like to hang out in northern Arizona is because they're really secret Martians and they like to land stay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, maybe we're from Mars.
		Did you happen to hear my program last night?
		Yes.
		It was represented to me that there are ice.
		There are clumps of ice, clumps of essentially water by the time it gets to the atmosphere, that just bombards every planet, literally everything.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this is Louis Frank's idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, with the seeds of life or potential life, with the ingredients.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There are two things going on here.
		One is Lewis Frank's idea.
		He's at the University of Iowa, by the way.
		He's not in California, as Stephen said.
		I've known Stephen Schwartz for a very long time, and he's very good at some things, but his memory for details sometimes.
		So Louis Frank is at the University of Iowa, and he propounded this very controversial model that the solar system is filled with mini comets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And they are bombarding not only the Earth, but other planets.
		There are huge problems with that model, and we don't have time to get into them tonight, but there's a possible way to salvage the model if they're not solid chunks, but dust clouds of ice crystals, so they have no mass, but they have enough water to feed the second theory, which is a report from a British astrophysicist.
		Actually, he's Indian, named Wick Rama Singh.
		I just love saying his name.
		He's a friend of Fred Hoyle's, who was a very brilliant British astrophysicist who propounded the steady-state model of the universe back in the 50s and 60s.
		And Wick Rama Singh and Hoyle together have worked for years on the idea of panspermia, that life exists in interplanetary space between the planets, even interstellar space, and that from time to time we are bombarded by comets or cometary stuff that seeds the Earth with viruses and other small life forms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That in fact life on Earth began because it was seeded from outer space.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And he, at a conference in England recently in the last couple, three days, stood up and pointed to an experiment that I guess he was involved in involving a stratospheric balloon that was lofted up to like 40, 45 miles, something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have such an altitude where there should not be any living.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that a reasonable tenant?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It is a very reasonable tenant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so he got up there above the life zone, we'll call it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yep, because the air currents simply don't propel anything up that high.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he found little microbes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Son of a gun.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And they look weird, and they look alien, and they look definitely non-terrestrial.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And if this is confirmed, it would be the first detection of living, breathing little guys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would it confirm the theory?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It would confirm the theory that there's something floating around the solar system that we have not been aware of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that potentially could see life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There wouldn't be any life.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You have to have a fertile Petri dish.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So this is pretty interesting news, and we'll have to see, you know, we'll have to stay tuned and see whether it's corroborated.
		He's had a lot of flack from some folks, but some support from other folks.
		And, you know, we'll just watch this plan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is the argument, Richard?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do some argue, yes, somehow something could make it up there?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's the idea, that he's just not recognizing that there are unusual events.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		For instance, when volcanoes, big ones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But Richard, if that were so, they would be recognizable bacterium, wouldn't they?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, it depends on how long they've been up there.
		For instance, we know now that microbes can live in all kinds of exotic environments.
		In fact, there's a whole term coined for little guys that can live in extreme places.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And in fact, the radiation levels at that altitude would perhaps reshape them a bit, eh?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		These are called extremophiles, and we find them, you know, 20,000 feet down on the bottom of the ocean, and they'll call black smokers.
		We find them in hot springs like Yellowstone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Black smokers are volcanic vents forming the size of the surface.
		On the bottom of the ocean, erupting iron sulfide gathers all around them.
		It's absolutely amazing at a depth where there ought to be nothing.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And there's life because there's no light down there, so you'd think there'd be no life, but it turns out that they have a life chain, a metabolic chain based on metabolizing things like hydrogen sulfide bacteria.
		So you have even complicated guys like clams and tube worms and relatively sophisticated life forms living off this interior energy of the Earth.
		It's basically geothermal energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if it could happen here, it could happen on another planet with similar volcanic actions.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right, like the oceans of Europa, which is one of our ideas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Richard, we're at the half-hour mark.
		Gather yourself, take a good deep breath, and we'll be right back.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're talking about Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, Solving the mystery of Mars to some degree tonight, Richard C. Hoagland is my guest.
unidentified		don't touch that dot You don't want me.
		You know, you don't got me.
		I'm the thing you want.
		And you know, don't come for me.
		don't have I'm a greedy, I'm a beautiful man.
		Oh, my brother's love for my doubt.
		You shouldn't worry after that, ain't no crime.
		If you get wrong, you'll get right next time.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Call Art Bell from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach Art at area code 775-727-1222.
		Or call the Wildcard line at 775-727-1295.
		To talk with Art on the Toll-Free International Line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and add them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What good is Mars?
		Kish might want to ask South that question.
		What good is Mars?
		Well, maybe a day when we need it.
		because didn't we just decide a little while ago that planets can die?
unidentified		Planet Liar, yeah, life is a cheat.
		It will lead you on it through the ground for one another.
		Wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Planets can die.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that means one day our planet could die.
unidentified		Like Mars died.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We might need it.
		That is so cool.
		Not one thunderclap, but two.
		I just realized I could do that.
		I did it actually by mistake.
		That's the way most of these things get started, right?
		I realized I could do it by mistake, and now I realize I can do it on purpose.
		Check this out.
		One more time.
unidentified		A big dual thunderclap.
unidentified		Watch this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's really cool.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back now to Richard C. Hogwind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, you're back on the air again.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Sounds like New Mexico.
unidentified		Yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've been getting a lot of that lately, haven't you?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's gorgeous.
		It really is.
		One of the things I missed when I lived in San Francisco was that we never got thunderstorms.
		And one night, very late, oh, many, many years ago, a front roll through across the Pacific, and we had thunderstorms, and everybody got up.
		The whole city, Berkeley, Oakland, everybody waked everybody.
		They called everybody.
		And there was a huge all-night block party as people watched lightning and rain and heard thunder.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't have block parties here, Richard.
		We have it occasionally.
		This is the month when we get it.
		When you have a hundred-foot tower in your backyard during a big thunderstorm, you don't go observe the people.
		Well, you do, but you sit out there and mostly pray.
unidentified		Please don't hit my tower.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I know the feeling.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember, I make thousand feet and I have electronic gadgets like you do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And you don't want something to hit.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Actually, when it strikes close, the amp is very impressive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's very impressive.
		So we were talking about life and possible life on Mars.
		And this Wickrama Singh thing, you know, life, the little bacteria in the stratosphere, and the Louis-Frank thing, the possible little mini-comets, in fact, is tied in to the potential solution to the mystery of Mars.
		So we're going to come back to this, folks.
		You've got to stay tuned because later in the evening, we're going to tie these two things, which I did not know were connected, back to what we think we have now discovered.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're also going to have some very interesting photographs for you, probably just after the top of the hour on my website.
		So stay tuned for that.
		Stay by your computer.
		We'll tell you when we're ready.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I remember when we could do radio and not have to worry about the pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, there's nothing like pictures to punctuate whatever you're saying, Richard.
unidentified		No, no, no.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I'm obviously tongue-in-cheek here because we have developed through your show this incredible combined medium.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember, we did the first internet radio simulcast?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember.
		They absolutely should be combined, and I will continue to combine them as long as I'm here, increasing that every time I get an opportunity.
		Anyway, then there's this gas thing on Mars.
		I want to understand that controversy, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, this segues nicely because, as I said, in 76, there I was at the JPL with Gene on my right, Eric on my left, and 1,500 friends watching Viking land.
		Now, Viking was billed by NASA as a search for life on Mars for a good reason.
		The idea was you'd land this VW sci spacecraft by remote control because it's eight minutes away by the speed of light, so there was no hands-on law.
		We literally were getting our data eight minutes after everything had happened.
		So it either happened or it didn't.
		There was not a damn thing anybody could do about it.
		So we get the pictures, and then a couple days after, the little hoppers in the top of the spacecraft opened up, and an arm reached out, a kind of a remote robotic arm, and the computer,
		under pre-stored ground commands from JPL, picked up the soil sample, brought it back, and then dumped the soil in the containers on the top of the spacecraft, kind of equilibrating between the first and the second and third experiment.
		So everybody got their samples, and then the instruments went to work.
		Now, what NASA had done is to go to TRW, which is a major aerospace company in Southern California, and they had built into about a cubic foot of space.
		A cubic foot is about, what, the size of your monitor maybe?
		They had built an incredible complex remote-controlled biochemistry laboratory.
		One cubic foot, and set it 40, 50 Million miles away to Mars and set it down on the surface.
		And the idea was that this laboratory would sniff and sample and examine the stuff going on in the three chambers and report from three different experiments whether there were any microbes in the soil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me represent the average person now.
		That was a long time ago, Richard, and as far as I knew from then, there wasn't much to be announced.
		And now all of a sudden, now, now, in 2001, we're getting some sort of announcement about something they found then.
		I just don't get it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I love the way you mentioned the number 2001.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because there's a lot of things happening this year that I think it's kind of time that they happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, but they answered my question.
		I mean, why are we hearing about this just now?
		Is it some.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, according to the story, I was there, so I can tell you what happened to the other end of this pipeline 25 years ago.
		The three experiments did their thing, and all of them reported positive results art.
		Every experiment that NASA did in this gadget said there's life on Mars.
		And those of us who were watching were absolutely dumbfounded because the experiments had been designed to look for opposite kinds of chemistry, and you couldn't have a positive registering life if there was opposite stuff going on in the soil.
		In other words, it was like having a yes and a no answer simultaneously.
		And then there was a fourth experiment called a GCMS, which was basically designed to measure organics, to measure the dead bodies.
		On Earth, when we have life going on, we have hydrocarbons involved, hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, things like that.
		And there's organic residues left over, dead bodies.
		This gadget was designed to sniff the soil down to the parts per billion level, that's what it be, and detect the residue of life, the dead bodies.
		Well, it didn't detect any dead bodies.
		It didn't detect any organic chemistry at all.
		And so NASA officially said that the three experiments, which had, quote, positively detected life, couldn't.
		That in fact it was what they called funny chemistry, having to do with a very weird surface, a highly oxidized, a super oxidized surface of Mars, given its peculiar history and environment.
		And in fact, it was only chemistry, it wasn't life, and everybody go home and nobody got excited.
		Well, one guy wouldn't go home.
		His name is Gil Levin, Dr. Gilbert Levin.
		I think I've discussed him a couple times on your show briefly.
		And he ran a company called Biospherics Inc., and he and his co-investigator have insisted for 25 years that their experiment, in fact, did detect microbial life in the soils of Mars, and NASA simply changed the rules in mid-game.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a huge political discussion, and I don't want to kind of get off in the politics side.
		But what he has been doing is he has been pursuing every possible loophole to try to counter the official NASA position that we didn't discover life, or his experiment didn't discover life.
		Now, his experiment was called the labeled release experiment.
		And the theory was as follows.
		You basically put the soil in the chamber, and in his gadget, his little vial, you then dropped in a little nutrient, which was called affectionately chicken soup.
		It was actually a complex organic compound.
		And the idea was that the little beasties, the little microbes in the soil, if they were there, if they were alive, they would glom onto the chicken soup, they would eat it, and they would then respire, meaning they would outgas, exhale carbon dioxide like microbes do here on Earth.
		The difference was this chicken soup was laced with radioactive carbon-14.
		So as they exhaled their carbon dioxide, the gas would float up to the top of the chamber, and there was a little radiation detector up there that was supposed to measure the amount of radioactive carbon locked up as CO2.
		And when everything worked as advertised, I mean, instrumentally, engineeringly, this was an incredible tour de force.
		I mean, we did an incredible job in 1976 because everything worked.
		The only thing that didn't work was the interpretation, the scientific reception of what these gadgets were trying to tell us.
		Because what happened in all these experiments, but in particularly in Levin's experiment, is that the label release thing worked.
		The gas came off, CO2.
		The radiation detector measured the carbon-14, which is how it knew how much gas was coming off.
		And over the next nine weeks, Art, nine weeks, that's two months plus one week, right?
		This thing continued to evolve.
		Now, they did controls.
		They then dumped it out, you know, flushed it out, put new soil in, started it up again, they got the same reaction, and then they raised the temperature to about 160 degrees centigrade, like an oven.
		And that was supposed to kill the microbes, to sterilize them, and you would then see if you had any reactions after that, and the reactions went away.
		Poof, gone, bang.
		Flat, dead line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then why didn't they announce, oh my God, life on Mars?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because they couldn't detect in that fourth instrument any organics.
		And they claimed that that was their control and that if they couldn't detect the organic residues of little microbes, then there couldn't be microbes and therefore there couldn't be life and it had to be some kind of weird oxidizing chemistry.
		Well, Levin spent 25 years, a quarter of a century, almost as long as I've been pursuing the Sidonia thing.
		He and his team have been pursuing the idea that they did detect life, that NASA politically didn't want to admit it for whatever reasons, and he's been up against a very stiff uphill climb.
		In 1999, a guy named Joseph Miller, who's a neurobiologist and a circadian rhythm expert, you know what circadian rhythms are, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, I do.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, for folks who don't, every biological organism appears to have an internal clock.
		And even when you isolate organisms ranging from microbes to bacteria to mussels to frogs to us, in the dark, away from light and dark, there is this internal clock which tick, tick, Tick, tick, tick, and seems to somehow know the planet's rotation, the day of the planet you're on.
		So this guy, Miller, somehow had a chance to look at Webin's data 25 years later, back in 99.
		And he was struck by the fact that as the gas came out and was measured by the radioactive detector, it showed little peaks and valleys.
		Bing, ping, ping.
		And they looked like they corresponded to the Martian day.
		So he said, oh my God, maybe.
		So he went to Nest and he said, get me all this Viking data.
		And they said, well, Dr. Miller, we kind of have a problem there because we lost it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We lost it?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They lost it.
		And so they scurried around and they finally found, he thought it was on one of the NASA websites, like everything is supposed to be out there somewhere?
		It wasn't.
		It wasn't anywhere to be found.
		Now, he's assuming a benign interpretation.
		You know me.
		I think they're maybe a less benign, but let's not get sidetracked.
		He finally got some people to get him the original magnetic tapes.
		And lo and behold, they had been programmed in an arcane machine code that was so primitive compared to what we're using now that the programmers had died.
		There was no way to get the data off the tapes.
		So then he gets hold of Levin.
		Fortunately, Levin had made paper copies of everything and was able to supply him with this.
		And together, over the last year or so, it's two years since 99, two and a half years, they have been working to restore this data.
		And Miller has been subjecting it to the kind of controls and statistical analyses that his profession brings to it, neurobiology and circadian rhythm studies.
		And last week in San Diego at a major conference, he published a result which is pretty astounding because he claims that what Levin has found is evidence, unequivocal evidence, of biological activity in the soil which exhibits the circadian rhythm of the 24.66 hour Martian day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Richard, again, on behalf of the normal person, why should we care whether there is microbial life on Mars right now or not?
		I mean, basically, it's a wasteland.
		If Mars once was alive, as we understand major life, it is not now.
		And if there is microbial life there, what difference is that going to make to us?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the context of your discussion with Stephen last night and in some of the things you were doing in the first hour, we should care because planets are not immortal.
		Planets can die.
		And in this incredible, vibrant, living world right next door and something terrible happened, or a series of something terribles, and we could be inadvertently doing stuff to our world that would bring on the same catastrophe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We've got to know that.
		Because we've got to be able to take another road.
		We've got to be able to take the left fork and not the right fork.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see that clearly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The other thing is that if there is life on Mars, then it presumably had a history.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It had an origin, it had an evolution, and if it's there now, it exists in its current condition because of all the things that have happened to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think certainly it's fair to say if it once had the water on it that we think that it had, or even that we know that it had, then there could have been big life there.
		There could have been complex life there.
		And if there was, I mean, you're absolutely right.
		We need to know for that reason.
		In addition, there are a lot of people talking about the possibility of terraforming Mars in case we might need it.
		So I can see all that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And, of course, there's, you know, is there a heart that is so dead that it doesn't want to know if it's alone?
		Because as Carl was so fond of saying, if we find so much as a microbe next door on Mars, it means the galaxy, the universe, is teeming with life.
		And, of course, it would back up with the science, the claims of all the UFO people that there are folks visiting and claims like us that there might have been an ancient civilization there.
		And it would be an extraordinary, even to find a microbe.
		But what you're going to hear tonight as we get through the rest of our mystery is that we're thinking now there's a lot bigger stuff than microbes.
		And what's amazing is that what we think may have happened to Mars may have left only the microbes alive.
		Everything else that we think could have been there may now have been deceased.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, everything larger than a microbe is deader than a doornail.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because of what happened to Mars and what could happen to this planet.
		It comes back to what do you do about your home?
		How do you protect life and limb and home?
		And so looking at Mars is not an academic exercise.
		It's a cautionary tale in if you don't do this and this and this, maybe for the grace of God, you'll go that way too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Richard, we do know there's a long history of probe failures to Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Incredible, statistically weird failures, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it so weird that there is some external force at work, whether it be earthly or otherwise, in your opinion?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, as I said on the PAC show, my bet is that if there's any weird force that is political, its missions don't die.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They're just kept from us who are paying for them because they find things that those guys don't want us to know until the right time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, going to Mars or any other planet is a chancy thing to do, and there are going to be failures, but there does seem to be a very disproportionately large number with regard to Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Compared to other places we have gone, which are a lot more hostile, like when you go toward Venus, toward the sun, it gets hot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, oh, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Electronics don't like hot, okay?
		They like cold better.
		When you go to the big planets like Jupiter, Saturn, they have huge radiation fields.
		And we've got a Galileo, which we're going to have to go out there and beat to death with a stick because it's just going and going and going.
		In fact, they're going to dive it into the atmosphere in a couple of years to permanently get rid of it so it won't clutter up the radio channels and possibly collide with Europa.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, it's diving in with a bunch of plutonium, isn't it?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, just a little bit.
		Not a lot.
		It won't do anything.
		Don't even go there.
		That's not a real problem.
		The point is that technology in space works extraordinarily well.
		We've had pioneer spacecraft that were sent to Venus back in the 60s that are still alive, 20, 30 years after they were launched.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The fact is that going to Mars, which is a relatively benign place, it's right next door, it's just a little further from the sun than we are, the Russians and even us lately have had an extraordinary series of, quote, failures, boys and girls.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it really should be the easiest place to go short of the moon.
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's really the hardest.
		Richard, hold on.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		We will be right back.
unidentified		I've been drifting on the sea of heartbreak, trying to get myself ashore for so long.
		For so long.
		Listen to the strangest stories.
		Wondering where it all went wrong for so long for so long.
		But hold on, hold on, hold on to what you got.
		I think it was nothing worse.
		But you ride this through apology.
		Everybody else would surely know He's watching my girl And the love is moving Nobody's talking about it Wanna take a ride?
		Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
		The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
		Good morning, everybody.
		We've got the visuals up now to go with the discussion we're about to have.
		Let me tell you how to get to them, all right?
		You go to artbell.com, and when you get there, you go to program over on the left-hand side, simply go to tonight's guest info, repeating tonight's guest info there.
		You will see the name Richard C. Hoagland.
		The first thing you'll see is images, Mars illustrations for tonight.
		Click on that.
		There are going to be nine illustrations there that we're going to be talking about.
		So if you start up to the web right now, you'll be able to follow along with us.
		Again, artbell.com.
		Go to program, tonight's guest info, and right under the name Richard C. Hoagland, you'll see the images for tonight.
		Click on those and follow along with us.
		Richard C., you'll be right back.
		Stay right where you are.
		All right, back now to Richard C. Hoagland.
		Figure number one.
		The first figure is sort of an introductory photograph.
		I suppose it's a photograph of Mars.
		And boy, is it a good photograph of Mars.
		Richard?
		That's really a pretty picture of Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that gorgeous?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's gorgeous.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not a photo.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's a piece of art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, that's why.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it's a piece of art as Mars may have looked many, many, many hundreds of millions or even billions of years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I thought it would look a little blue.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's very blue.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And there's water running down Valles Marineris.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There's an ocean on the left.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Toward Olympus Mons.
		There's blue sky.
		There's Rayleigh scattering.
		There are clouds.
		It's warm.
		It's wet.
		And this is part of the mystery.
		What we're going to talk about for the next couple hours is the work that I and Mike Berra have been doing for about a year, quietly with a number of other colleagues, to try to put together all the pieces of the puzzle ever since 71, since the first Mariner 9 images that told us we had a place that was maybe like the Earth once and was nowhere like the Earth now.
		I mean, the temperatures on Mars are extraordinarily cold now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, can I ask about one more thing?
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The recent storms on Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The dust storms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the dust storms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I've heard from varying sources that dust storms of the magnitude they're having actually shouldn't be possible.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's one theory.
		It's an interesting theory.
		I mean, we know they occur roughly every couple of years when Mars comes around closest to the sun, and we only really get to see them when we're closest to Mars, when it's closest to the sun, which happens roughly every 17 or 15 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, these are monstrous storms.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, you've got several things working for you.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You have a very thin air, thin atmosphere.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You have an extremely dry surface.
		I mean, it is bone dry.
		So when you stir up dust, even in a thin atmosphere, there's no water to wet it.
		There's no wetting agent.
		It doesn't stick together.
		It's been dry for many, many millions of years and getting drier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's kind of like out here where I live, so dry that when the wind blows, it picks up everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Except on Mars, it picks it up, and there's no precipitation falling to bring it back down.
		There's no nucleation, or very little, you know, which would make it bigger and clump together and make it fall.
		So that's why when Viking landed, we were astonished to see that the skies looked pink.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then it's how close it gets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, when it warms up, when it's closer to the sun.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Mars orbit is not circular like the Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The energy is sufficient to get it going?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's sufficient, and plus you're tilted, you know, that hemisphere, the southern hemisphere, is tilted toward the sun.
		So you get an enhanced effect.
		On Earth, you know, we have a tilt, 23.5 degrees.
		Mars is tilted 25 degrees.
		The tilt creates seasons, right?
		On Earth, we're closer and tilted toward the sun in the winter in the northern hemisphere, so the two things kind of moderate.
		Even though our orbit is pretty circular, it's not exactly a circle.
		Mars is very elliptical.
		It's quite elliptical, egg-shaped.
		And so you can get millions of miles closer to the Sun on Mars in the southern hemisphere summer than you can in the northern hemisphere winter.
		So the summers on Mars are warmer, and the winters are colder by a lot than they would be if the Mars orbit was circular.
		So the dust storm that we're seeing erupted from a place called Hellas, and like the one back when Mariner 9 went into orbit in 71, it quickly spread around the entire planet, so for weeks you couldn't see anything but dust.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You got your telescope just at the wrong time, Mark.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Although it was really, and I could clearly see the storms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was incredible.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was watching before the storms, ha ha.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it was, you know, in fact, that was the night we were going to do the show, the night it was closest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And then you had to leave a little early.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We had an incredible view and all kinds of neat, mysterious things have happened.
		But the view you see on the screen now, for everybody watching, you know, on web TV or on their computer, that is the view of what we now think Mars may have looked like hundreds of millions of years ago.
		And what we've been trying to do is to piece together the puzzle that would allow us to say some very certain things that had never been said before about Mars.
		And by the end of the evening, we hope to be able to tell you how we got there.
		This all comes down to water.
		It all comes down to where do the water go.
		That's why Mars Observer and Mars Surveyor were sent.
		Because NASA, since 71, has seen these incredible evidences of ancient water, you know, vast canyons carved by rushing floods and streams and tributaries and ancient rivers, all bone dry now, all sitting there under their 100th atmosphere of Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, water is life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Water is life.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And water is definitely connected to life.
		If you don't got water, you don't got anything.
		So where did the water go?
		Well, about a year ago, when we finally got our first sets of pictures, this is now the second picture down art.
		In July, a little over a year ago, we published on Enterprise a photograph right after the NASA press conference on water.
		Remember they announced they'd found evidence of arroyas of erosion that looked like it could have been maybe a million years ago.
unidentified		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Could have been yesterday, but there was no liquid water.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, we found some images, and this is one of them, which show things, dark, streaky stains.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed, dark, indeed dark.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That appear to look through all the world.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They go from high-level stuff down to lower-level stuff, downhill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see that, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And you can see here several different versions.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There's real dark ones, then there's lighter ones, then there's real light ones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If this is moisture being represented.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's what we're doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it does look like it's going downhill, folks.
		Take a look for yourself.
		Inevitably, the further down you go, the darker it gets, indicating the water's pooling down below.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So this has been a mystery now for about a year.
		And we were the first to publish and claim it was liquid water.
		And here's the model we actually presented at our enterprise of June.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Coming from where?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Ah, coming from underground.
		Coming from water that is being melted underground.
		Because remember, the temperatures refer to the surface, air temperature.
		But you know, living in the desert that it can be relatively comfortable standing up, but if you put an egg on your sidewalk out in front of the house, it can actually fry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So the ground can be warmer and can trap energy more than the air.
		The air is very thin on Mars, so the air temperature is very, very cool all the time.
		But the ground temperature can get up to 50, 60, 70, 80 degrees.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you know that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had heard that, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And this was measured by Lowell and guys with telescopes and now been reconfirmed.
		So the ground near the equator can actually rise well above the boiling point of water.
		I'm sorry, the liquid point, not boiling point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean the melting point of ice?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In other words, above 32 degrees.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, sure, sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, the theory says, well, wait a minute.
		Even if you had water, as soon as it hits the air, it's going to evaporate.
		So if you have a liquid pool, it'll go poof.
		It'll disappear within minutes.
		But if you wet the ground from underneath, and the ground has certain properties, and we'll get into that in a minute, you might be able to have liquid water that would stay liquid, wetting the ground like a sponge.
		You know how you can wet a sponge from underneath and it seeps up through?
unidentified		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It would stay liquid for hours or maybe even half a day before it evaporated, depending upon the kind of soil and where the water was coming from, how deep.
		So we looked at these last year and we said, holy, whatever, it's liquid water.
		And as soon as we said that, NASA said, you guys are crazy.
		It's dust.
		These are dust avalanches flowing downhills, et cetera, end of discussion.
		And a whole bunch of people in the so-called anomalous community.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do they know?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, they don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're getting the same photographs we are, right?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And we've had now geologists, we've had Ron Nix look at this, we've had a lot of other people look at it.
		There have been a lot of independent investigators, people like Efren Palermo and Jill England, who are two people I really want to cite tonight because they did some amazingly good scientific research which allowed us to create the paper that we have published on Enterprise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, you can even see in this photograph some of these downhill shadings which are almost dried up if you imagine it's water and at the very bottom it's darker as it certainly would be if water if it was liquid.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It was cooled under gravity and the bottom has more than the top drying slower.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now notice that there are light ones in between.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay, everybody who's ever lived in the Midwest or in the mountains knows that you have a terrible problem, the so-called bathtub or bathroom sink stain problem, which is caused by calcium carbonate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Or any one of a number of other minerals.
		If you were to have mineral-laden springs underground soaking up through the sand and the dust and wetting it and looking darker because it's wet and then drying, what you would get as a residue after that process had gone would be the minerals that are left.
		You get the white stuff and you can see some of these streaks now instead of being dark, they're light.
		Well, we were pretty convinced that we were looking at liquid water.
		And then other people picked up the cudgels.
		As I said, Efren Palermo put up a website and he started culling through thousands of Mars images for the stains, as we've called them.
		The stains, because they're dark stains, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And he's got an incredible website, which is linked to Enterprise, you know, if you go down a little bit, where he mapped, you know, he basically looked all over and he put up images and images and images.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And finally, I got together with him this past spring, and I said, Ephraim, have you made a map, a global distribution of these images?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because if we're looking at water art, our idea was it should be around the equator because that's where it's warmer.
		Sure.
		It might even be seasonal.
		And if you looked over enough of Malin's pictures covering a couple of Martian years, you may be able to decode all that.
		Well, he set up a global Mercator projection, and he involved a very bright young gal named Jill England, who is a statistician.
		She has a whiz at mathematics.
		And what she has done is gone through, get this, all of the 70 plus thousand images from Mars that Malin has given us and done a statistical analysis, a first-rate statistical analysis, which they, by the way, have put into a paper that they're publishing at the Mars Society conference in, I believe it's in a few days in Denver, the annual conference of people who basically want to send manned missions back to Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The paper was accepted, and what it shows is that the distributions of these stains is very, very weird.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm looking at figure three, jumping down.
unidentified		That's it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Jump down now to figure number three.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we're looking at a 180-degree difference from a planetary point of view, correct?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		You've got a cluster, a big cluster of stains in one place on Mars.
		And then if you looked at Mars as a globe, and we'll get to that in a moment, 180 degrees away on the other side of the planet where the rest of the stains are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, there they are.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And there's nothing in between.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you've got them coded, the red dots indicating stain images, the yellow dots indicating light stain images, and the red dots indicating that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And Jill's coding, but as I said, we suggested that he do the map, and this became the central mystery all spring into the summer.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We've had all kinds of discussions among ourselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What in the world could be causing this distribution?
		Now, this distribution has a name.
		It's called bimodal distribution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What does that mean?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Bimodal means it's got two poles.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It comes up in two places.
unidentified		Bimoding two.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Like bipolar disorder.
		There is no way that these can be dust.
		Because dust, I mean, the areas of Mars flow all around the planet.
		You have global dust storms, boys and girls.
		That's what we just stopped discussing, right?
		So how can you be falling down, you know, steep cliffs and other places on Mars only in two areas that are 180 degrees apart?
		So I looked at this, I looked at this, and I looked at this.
unidentified		You can't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's water.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, it's got to be water.
		Well, let's put it this way.
		It has to be a fluid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A fluid of some sort.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It might not be.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you know, if you want to be very scientific.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what is a good guess if we...
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But as we said in our original note last year, those dark things could be oil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could be.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They're so damn dark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It could be.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Tommy Gold, you know, you know Tommy Gold?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the way it's going, in about 35 years, it'll be worth, financially, worth bringing oil back from Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		George, you hear that?
		You want to drill in Anmar?
		I got a place for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Long pipeline.
		Very long pipeline.
		Anyway, Tommy Gold, who is a brilliant astrophysicist, he actually was the one who coined the term pulsar and neutron star.
		He has proposed that the oil on Earth is not due to organisms, you know, little biogenic things, ancient guys buried etc.
		Or dinosaurs, you know, we're digging up T-Rexes and putting them in our gas tanks.
		He is claiming, with some reasonable evidence, that the production of oil is not biological, but is chemical.
		And, yeah, it involves hydrocarbons, but those are made, you know, naturally as opposed to with life.
		And that any planet with enough chemistry should have deep layers of oil under its surface, even if it never had life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then, shouldn't there be here on Earth more oil forming underground?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, but it takes a long time to form.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But shouldn't they be able to see, even at the macro level, some development of new oil?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It would depend on where you're drilling.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In other words, how would you know if you're drilling into a pool in sediments that it isn't abiogenically formed?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, shouldn't they see something in process?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, gold's theory is so controversial, and it has not been really tested yet.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I think they tried to test it in the Baltic Sea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd be more comfortable with the fluid idea, the water idea even than oil.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, you have to be kind of objective here and say it could be another fluid.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Back down to the map, all right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because the map is gold.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, this is where Efren was hopefully listening tonight because we've not told him what we figured out from his map.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, everybody.
		For those of you that don't have computers, the two areas 180 degrees apart at both poles of Mars are just filled with these red dots that would indicate some sort of stain images, serious stain images.
		Elsewhere on the planet, you've got mostly green, which means non-stain images.
		It's just impossible.
		It's absolutely impossible.
		It probably is water.
		Okay, I'll give you that, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, the thing that is conclusive that it's got to be a fluid and most likely water is the next graphic down.
		Because I'm looking at this, and I'm looking at this, and I'm suddenly thinking, oh, my God, what would give you an unmistakable bimodal double pole 180-degree signature?
		Tides.
		Tides.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tides, Indeed, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If you look at that diagram, this is listed from a guy named Michael Payne.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And what people don't realize, you know, even though we live on Earth, even if you live near the seashore, most people don't realize that we, for a very good reason, have two high tides a day.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you're living in a desert, you wouldn't know anything about this, but presumably when you were out in Okinawa or places like that, you watched the ocean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Richard, I've watched the ocean from time to time.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Tongue-in-cheek.
		The reason we have two tides is because the moon is the culprit here.
		The moon raises gravitationally a lump of water on the one side of the earth.
		That's where you have one high tide.
		But what most people don't know is that on the other side of the earth, exactly the same moment, you have another high tide, 180 degrees opposite.
		And there's some funny little physics, and that diagram explains it if people want to go and kind of study it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, we don't have to get into the details, but on every body where you would have tides, Hold on, Richard.
		He's right.
		We have a high tide on this side, which is facing the moon.
		I understand, I think, the physics behind that, but I don't understand the physics that would create a high tide on the other side of the Earth, which is not seeing the moon or the influence from the moon.
		We'll ask about that.
		I'm Ardell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		Good morning, or afternoon, or evening, or whatever it is, wherever you are.
unidentified		�� Happy and I'm finally walking.
		Happy and I'm finally walking.
		Want to take a ride?
		Call our bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
		The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to call out on the Toll Free International Line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Novels.
		Music
		Think about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it really important to know what happened to Mars?
		Yes, it probably is, because it could happen to us.
		In addition to that, should it occur to us, we might need a place to go.
		So, what have we got up there?
		Do we have small life?
		Large life?
		Do we have water?
		That's what we're talking about tonight.
		You might want to stick around and see how it turns out.
		I'm Arthel.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		Yeah, they'll love machines.
		All right.
		I am kind of curious.
		I can understand the physics, I think, of why we have a high tide when the moon's looking at us.
		But why would we have one on the other side of the Earth, Richard?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let me try to do this simply.
		And for folks who don't have computers, you're going to really have to think about this mental picture.
		When the moon is over any part of the Earth that has an ocean, there's a bulge of water pulled up toward the moon by the moon's gravity.
		The Earth is also rotating at 1,000 miles an hour.
		So even if we didn't have a moon arc, there would be a kind of an inner tube of water around the equator because of the centrifugal force effect of the rotation.
		Like slinging a bucket of water around your head on an old piece of rope.
		Which, in fact, I actually did one day and had very interesting results.
		This was a long time ago.
		Well, you know, science is experimental, and sometimes you've got to experiment.
		Even if it means blowing up your mother's kitchen.
		Well, that's another story, so we won't go there either tonight.
		Anyway, so we're on a rotating planet, and you've got gravity plus centrifugal force.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So the bulge toward the moon is even a little bigger.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But why do we have a bulge away from the moon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the other side, yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Ah, that's a really interesting puzzle, and a lot of people don't understand it, so let me try here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Try me.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay, it's because the force of gravity from the moon is not linear.
		In other words, it isn't constant.
		It decreases with distance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it decreases rapidly with distance.
		They call it the inverse square law.
		So by the time you get to the other side of the world, which is 8,000 miles farther from the moon than the side facing the moon, the force of the moon's gravity is significantly smaller.
		So the centrifugal force that's spinning up the inner tube of water can spin it up high on that side because the Earth is being pulled out from under it.
		Differentially.
		It's that differential force.
		It's the difference between the moon pull and the centrifugal force of the rotating water on the rotating Earth.
		You wind up with two bulges.
		Opposite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but it seems to me it ought to be the opposite of that.
		In other words, it ought to be a low tide there because the moon continues, albeit a lesser pull.
		And as you're looking outside of the Earth, it seems to me that would pull it toward the bulge, which would make it a lesser tide on the opposite.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It would be if we were just sitting in space and it's suddenly moving toward the moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But because we're in orbit, you have that bucket effect.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it's all in the rotation.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember, rotation, rotation, rotation?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, tides like this, because planets are going to orbit other bodies anywhere in the galaxy, anywhere in the universe, you will have two lobe tides, bimodal tidal distribution on any planet with tides anywhere in the universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then your theory is with regard to Mars that that tidal effect is what produces the water bulging from the ground on opposite sides.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Okay, I got it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But here's the big problem: what is causing the tides?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On Mars.
unidentified		On Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It has no moons.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it has two little tiny potatoes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not enough, not enough.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, no way, no way, no way.
		And the sun, tidal force, by the way, goes as the inverse cube.
		The height of tides is as the third power divided of the distance.
		So by the time, I mean, we have small solar tides on Earth.
		They're about half the height of the lunar tides.
		But by the time you get out to Mars, any solar tide is insignificant.
		Plus, Mars is rotating.
		24 hours, 37 minutes.
		Half an hour longer than it takes for the Earth to spin.
		Why would you have two tidal signatures permanently now on the surface, fixed in time?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Ah, that's where the break.
		I mean, I got to tell you that the emotional high, pun intended, of coming up with the answer to this and finding it was the answer to a whole series of mysteries going back to Lowell's time.
		It answers so many questions.
		That's why we've written this 32-page paper that we have published on Enterprise.
		You just go to Enterprisemission.com or go through your website to us, and right at the very top, there's a big banner that says, attention.
		You know, you're going to be swept away by the tides of Mars.
		And we explain in much more detail than we can tonight how this now answers so many extraordinary mysteries of Mars, including what happened to Mars' life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, answer it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do they have tides?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Why do they have tides?
unidentified		Because it has to be an echo.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It has to be telling us about an ancient Mars, a condition, a situation where Mars was close to a big object with good gravity, which maintained those tides.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but that accounts for it then, not now.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because, well, here's where things get more interesting.
		Okay, go to the next graphic down.
		All right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, here we have a picture of, I guess, Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have Palermo's map.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know, computers can now take Mercator and wrap them around spheres.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So what we did is we had Ephraim wrap his map around a globe of Mars, and you wind up now, look at his captions.
		You wind up with most of the stains are on what's called the Tharsis bulge.
		Fewer stains are on the opposite side of what are called the Arabia bulge.
		And I've got here a graphic showing a tidally distorted ocean.
		If Mars had an ocean, you know, that egg-shaped thing is aligned.
		And to the right, it says to planet five.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Yes.
		That would account for it then.
		But how now, brother?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We'll get there.
		All right.
		Remember Tom Van Flandern?
		Tom Van Flandern has maintained for many, many years that Mars used to be a satellite of a bigger guy in the outer solar system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Near the asteroid belt.
		We think tonight, boys and girls, we have proven Tom is right.
		How?
		Because of the tides.
		If Mars existed as a satellite relatively close within, let's say, 100,000 miles, what would happen is it would become tidally locked.
		Like the moon goes around the Earth, so you only see one side every month.
		Mars would go around the big guys, so it would always see the same side.
		If you were standing on the big planet with Mars as a moon, you'd only see one hemisphere.
		We have a weird situation.
		We've had it since the 70s when Mariner 9 first went into orbit.
		They found that there's this huge bulge in Mars.
unidentified		Go down to the next graphic, okay?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is a MOLA graphic.
		The MOLA is the Mars Orbiter Laser Altimeter.
		It's bouncing, pinging laser pulses, measuring the altitude of various things under the spacecraft orbiting Mars now.
		So it's developed this incredible, complete Mars map of the altitudes to an error rate of less than a few centimeters.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'm on it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Notice that the red stuff, if you look at the key at the top.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, what does that indicate?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That color scale, what does it mean?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The blue stuff is low.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The red stuff is high.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Look at where the red stuff is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're opposite.
unidentified		Opposite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Roughly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		Now, the one on the left is reversed from the previous diagram.
		The one on the left is what's called the Tharsis bulge, where all the huge volcanoes are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Olympus Mons and Arcea Mons and all those others.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The one on the right, kind of down at the four o'clock position, is Arabia Bulge.
		There are two bulges in the crust and mantle of Mars that have never been explained.
		They are unique in the solar system.
		The Pharsis bulge is the biggest bulge on any planet we've ever visited or ever surveyed in the last 40 years of NASA.
		And is completely mysterious.
		Totally, bafflingly mysterious to every mainstream planetologist within the sound of my voice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unless there was another big body.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Unless, yes, because what would happen over long periods of time, Mart, is things get frozen in.
		Right.
		They get deformed.
		Planets are plastic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I understand that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You don't think of rock as being plastic, like toothpaste.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'm with you all the way.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Except, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Let's go down to the next graphic.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And you're accept.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm there.
unidentified		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The next graphic shows a schematic version of what we think happened.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Mars got captured sometime between the origin of the solar system five billion years ago and X time, you know, back in time millions of years.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Mars got captured by a planet that used to exist out there where there's now but rubble.
		And remember Tom's idea?
		Sure.
		That there were a couple of planets that blew up?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, we may not have to go that far.
unidentified		We may just have to smash them together.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it would have the same effect.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If they were big enough and they collided at fast enough speed, you get the equivalent of a huge explosion.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And what that would do is liberate Mars.
		So this is the schematic of Mars before it was liberated, before it was released in this event.
		And what you can see is it would rotate around the big guy, maintaining the same face toward the planet.
		We think it would have rotated around around 24 hours, kind of like it's rotational period now, that that's the ancient relic rotation revolution period.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it would raise bulges, both in the crust and in the oceans.
		Now, if this occurred, several important other things would happen.
		That huge bulge, the Tharsis bulge, has all those big volcanoes.
		What do big volcanoes do, Arch?
		They belch stuff out.
		And what kind of stuff is it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, molten stuff, rocks, dust, and gases.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ashes, gas, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Gases.
		And that's where we think the Earth's atmosphere came from.
		In fact, we think the planetary atmospheres, so-called silicate worlds, Earth-like worlds, all comes from volcanoes belching out their guts from the inside on the outside and exhaling gases that then form the atmospheres.
		Then on Earth, life modified the atmosphere because these primitive atmospheres would be CO2.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And they'd be nitrogen.
		And they'd be other things, trace elements.
		But ultimately, for the last 500 plus million years, life on Earth has transformed the CO2 into oxygen, nitrogen, things like that.
		So our atmosphere is very atypical of the normal planetary process.
		But in terms of its ancient origins, it would have been the same on Mars.
		Big volcanoes mean lots of belching, mean lots of atmosphere.
		So as you wind up with Mars in this tidal configuration, you wind up augmenting the internal heating process, particularly if then Planner's also written that this big guy had another moon.
		Now, you remember what's going on in the Jovian system right now, where you have these four moons, the so-called Galilean satellites, and they're nudging each other gravitationally, and they wind up inputting energy into Io, and it's got all that volcanic activity we found back in 1979 with Voyager.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Similar situation could have gone on with one other moon in the Planet 5 system.
		All it would take is one other moon, and there'd be enough tidal disturbance of the rotation revolution that you'd get, basically it's like bending a wire back and forth, where the wire gets hot.
		The energy gets dumped into the interior.
		It's belched up in volcanoes.
		The volcanoes add to the gaseous atmosphere.
		So you get a very dense atmosphere, much denser than the one now.
		100 times denser.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But Richard, I'm sorry, I still do not understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If there is interior water in Mars, what is causing the tidal effect that brings it to the surface at 180 degrees?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You're getting there.
		You're getting there, okay?
		But you've got to have a little foundation here.
		So the ultimate upshot of all this is that Mars would have had a dense atmosphere.
		And the denser the atmosphere, the more it traps heat from the sun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's called the greenhouse effect.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		With enough greenhouse, you get nice, balmy temperatures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You get liquid water.
		You get liquid water for potentially hundreds of millions of years.
		So what then happened is, according to Tom and according to our separate calculations, either the big guy exploded, or that's our next diagram down, or it got collided by the other planet, so-called planet K in his model.
		Either way, you would have had an incredible detonation right on Mars' doorstep.
		And on Mars, there's a huge southern hemisphere that's absolutely peppered with craters, shoulder-to-shoulder craters.
		This diagram demonstrates how we think the craters formed.
		It's the debris from the explosion of the planet.
		What that did, and that's our last diagram, is to release Mars back into a solar orbit all by itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I take it, this final picture is indeed a photograph of Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's a photograph taken by Hubble a few days ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, it's a beauty too.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that gorgeous?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it is.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yep, yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's, by the way, the Sidonia side of Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's the blue at the top and bottom?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That is water ice crystals and CO2 that are scattering sunlight, like blue sky.
		That's clouds.
		It's a vestige of the atmosphere.
unidentified		So let me go through the last steps.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In this model, which I'm really thinking is real, not only would you have the planet deformed into those two bulges in the crust, the oceans, the water would have collected are in two oceans clustered over Tharsis and over Arabia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can see that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it would have sat there for millions, if not hundreds of millions of years.
unidentified		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What happens when the planet blows up or it gets collided?
		You suddenly lose the gravitational tidal lock.
		Suddenly, this condition, which has existed for, you know, maybe half a billion years, is released.
		The gravity field suddenly goes away.
		The tides of Mars are gone.
		And the water is released to rush at headlong velocity, hundreds of miles an hour, back to the lowest places on Mars, which is in between the two oceans.
		We see these incredible huge channels.
		That's why when we talked the other day and you said they just found these incredible big channels, guess where they are?
		They're right at the edges of this ocean.
		They're where the waters would have rushed for 1,000 miles, 150 miles wide, and carved incredible channels in the crust because of the vacuum forces of that much water rushing at that speed over the surface under Mars gravity.
		And what we're now saying is that the water that we're seeing in these stains opposite on both these poles, these tidal oceans, are the ancient seabed waters coming up from underneath the ground where there used to be the ancient oceans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But doesn't it take some kind of remaining tidal pressure to force that?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All it takes is temperature, heat.
		And all it would do is, remember, the only place water can go is up.
		If you melt it, it Will flow upwards.
		It will percolate upwards.
		So, if you had ancient seas sitting over two places, you know, think of two round oceans on both sides of Mars, and then they're suddenly released, and the atmosphere goes away, you have massive impacts, most of the water and the atmosphere is literally vaporized and blown into space, we're talking a catastrophe of unimaginable biblical proportions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How large do you imagine these underground oceans to be?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're not oceans.
		They are the remaining rivulets of ancient water.
		Now, here's something important.
		Under the current Martian conditions, it would be very hard to maintain liquid water, right?
		At the recent Lunar Planetary Science Conference in Houston, two Russian guys from the Russian Academy of Sciences, from the Institute of Geochemistry, proposed a model where if you add salts to water under Mars conditions, it can be liquid even well below 10, 20, 30 degrees, below zero.
		Sure.
		And what would you find on the seabeds of two ancient oceans, Art?
unidentified		Salt.
unidentified		Salt.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So we go down the list, ping, ping, ping, ping, every mystery that they are now propounding.
		The discovery of huge channels, the bimodal distribution of the stains, the strange atmosphere, the weird presence of sulfur.
		Do you know what Mars has a lot more sulfur on the surface?
		43 times more sulfur than the Earth does?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This should mean that if we were to go to Mars with man or even with a robot, we could drill into the appropriate areas and find water pretty quickly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's got to be close to the surface in these regions.
		Now, remember, any scientific theory, and again, I want to call people's attention, if you go to the Enterprise website, you follow the links at the top of the main page, you'll go to the paper.
		We have it in PDF form because, Art, we are so convinced this is real that we're submitting this to scientific peer-reviewed journals to be published under that process.
		Now, it's going to take a long time because you can't send them simultaneously.
		You've got to send them one at a time.
		So you get rejection, rejection, rejection.
		Somebody is going to publish this in a peer-reviewed journal.
		It is that good.
		It answers every single mystery.
		Now, your question, where do you drill?
		Obviously, go to the two places where you have stains.
		And that's where you put your man base.
		That's where you drill because that's where the water is, and you can easily filter out the salt.
		That is trivial, all right?
		But you've got lots of water there if this model is correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I asked about that.
		When you say lots of water, how much water?
		Well, maybe.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Certainly, given the number of stains we're seeing and the fact that we now have a time constant, we know that they appear and darken immediately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But they don't dry up for years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how much water, maybe?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly enough to fill maybe the Mediterranean Sea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Enough, certainly, to support a manned base on Mars.
		No question about that.
		All right.
		Well, that's pretty interesting stuff.
		Take a look at the stains yourself.
		See what you think.
		It really does look like water up there.
		I'm Ardell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Music
		You know me.
		You're one way to die your time.
		You feel love.
		I don't watch you.
		You won't trust your booze.
		Tell us.
		Got me on my feet.
		Bag and God bell and keep a ride?
		Call Art Bell from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach Art at area code 775-727-1222.
		Or call the Wildcard line at 775-727-1295.
		To talk with Art on the Toll-Free International Line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell, learning a little bit more about Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, you really want to take a look at the photograph that Richard has up there.
		The last one.
		Real photograph of Mars as it is today.
		I think you'd be very surprised to see the blue.
unidentified		The blue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The atmosphere.
		Looks like our blue sky.
		It's a real photograph, recent photograph taken of Mars.
unidentified		It's really cool.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of blue up there.
		More blue than anybody would have expected.
		All right, once again, Dr. Richard C. Hopeland in New Mexico.
		And Richard, I think you've made a pretty convincing case that the water is under those two areas.
		What I guess I want to know is what does that really mean for us?
		Does that mean that a manned base on Mars is feasible?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's trivial, trivial, because if there's that much water, and we're talking a lot of water, residual water, then everything that Robert Zubrin and the others that want to go Mars direct and the fast and cheap and not the massive $400 to $500 billion mission, but their $30 billion maybe is totally, totally doable.
		That's the first fallout of this model.
		And let me tell you why the stage is so dark.
		I mean, the deeper we get into the model, pun intended, deeper title model, the better this gets.
		And for those people who can't download PDF files, I've been getting a few faxes like, what the hell do you mean putting that PDF up there?
		We're doing that because that's what we're submitting to the journals.
		Tomorrow, next day, sometime, we will have an HTML version on the web, web-friendly for all the web teams.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they can just read it directly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So they can read it direct, yeah.
		The reason this is such a powerful model, it's so amazing, and I want everybody in the planetary community out there, it's going to be anomalous, all the people following the Sidonia, you know, up and down, back and forth, to basically think about this.
		Because if we are right, this is not only the keys to the kingdom of putting man and women on Mars now, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap.
		George, are you listening?
		But it's the key to solving what happened to Mars in the past and whether there was anybody home.
		And that's the thing that I'm so excited about because this now allows me in Heritage to lay out, to preview tonight, but to lay out in detail the past history of Mars and what happened there that paralleled what happened here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think Arthur C. Clarke is suggesting there may be now large life still on Mars?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It falls out of the model.
		Get this.
		Okay.
		If Tom is right, and you know how Tom Van Plander created the idea of a possible other set of planets out there, Mars is a satellite?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Based on the celestial mechanics of comets and asteroids?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You can't really cheat celestial mechanics.
		It's pretty simple stuff.
		And he basically sees the signature in his evidence of explosions or collisions.
unidentified		Big ones.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We've got a Mars now with all these tidal signatures.
		That's the part tonight I'm totally firm on.
		Mars was tidally bound to a big object.
		It then was released.
		How it was released, whether it was an explosion or a collision, is almost irrelevant.
		We know from the data now that Mars had to have been captured into this orbit, 24-hour orbit, and held there for a long time.
		How long?
		That's the key $64 million question.
		How long?
		Tom says that this all came to an end, a catastrophic end, 65 million years ago, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's when the dinosaurs bought it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is indeed.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The dinosaurs bought it because a fragment of the colliding or exploding planet hit the Earth and killed them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		So that's our end stop.
		That's when Mars went to hell.
		You know, Elton John's, Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids because it's cold as hell.
		Well, that's when Mars got cold as hell because that's when the Garden of Eden period, as I'm calling this, came to an end.
		But the real question is, how long did it last?
		Now, I can get into the details if you want, but I'll give you the number.
		We think that Mars was in this tidal lock condition for about 500 million years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Half a billion years.
		Now, why is that number important?
		Because that's the same number as it took for the Earth to create all the advanced life we enjoy on Earth tonight.
		We had something called the Cambrian explosion of biological diversity 540 million years ago.
		Scientists, paleontologists, biologists, evolutionary guys all say that that's when we went from little bacteria that cover the Earth to suddenly a huge explosion of evolution where all the advanced families, all the advanced forms we find now, all so-called body plans of big guys suddenly appear.
		And the Swedes think that it may have happened in as little as 5 million years.
		And it set the blueprint for everything that's happened in the last 540 million years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has always been a mystery, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Huge mystery, and I will try to solve that one in Heritage.
		That's too big to tackle tonight.
		But the interesting thing is that from our separate work on Mars, it looks like Mars was captured about the same time as advanced life on Earth was basically appearing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, would all of this lead you to believe that there was some sort of advanced civilization on Mars?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that during this specific period, the one that you identify there and here, they made their way from there to here, being aware of what was happening.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Kind of.
		This is what we think happened.
		You had a primitive Mars with little guys in the soil, little bacteria.
		Mars gets captured.
		The Tharsis bulge in Arabia begin to develop under the tidal forces.
		They belch out gases.
		They create a greenhouse effect.
		You get warm temperatures.
		You get rain.
		You get oceans.
		You get volcanic activity putting out chemicals.
		You get lightning.
		Remember your lightning zapping the little warm pond you talked about with Stephen last night?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You get a parallel development with similar temperatures and a similar amount of time.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I'm going to argue that you had similar type evolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A reasonable person would conclude that.
unidentified		Yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, last year when we found the water stains and published them, we also found some other things that frankly were so unbelievable that I kind of buried them in the middle of one of our reports.
		We found things that look for all the world like huge fossilized life forms.
		I'm talking huge.
		I'm talking enormous life forms, ancient skeletons.
		And we have them on our website.
		I don't have the link up there right tonight because we published them a year ago.
		And I can't prove it yet because I haven't talked to him, you know, but I'm beginning to suspect because Arthur C. has been following what we're doing at Enterprise, I think that that's where he got the idea that the glass tunnels may be big ancient fossils of worms or living worms.
		Now, I can grant him that they might be fossils.
		They might not be Lincoln tunnels or Holland tunnels like we've been saying.
		They might be organic forms, but they might be ancient organic forms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Real Martian worms.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Exactly, like in Dune, all right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, like in Dune.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Like in Dune.
		Now, the reason that biology would have grown so huge on Mars compared to our normal experience, Mars is not the Earth.
		Mars is smaller.
		It has a lighter gravity.
		It was under a very peculiar tidal condition, which does things in my physics model that would precipitate big life.
		But remember, we went through a period on Earth of big life, did we not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very big.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Huge things that could not exist on Earth, by the way.
		Jurassic Park, I think, could not happen now because the gravity...
		If I'm right, when these planets blew themselves to pieces or collided and the fragments were scattered to the winds, the physics of the solar system went down a peg.
		So big stuff can no longer Exist.
		But back in the heyday of the solar system, when everything was hunky-dory, you had huge biological developments on, if we're right, two worlds, not just one.
		And we're seeing in these photographs some of the evidence that Arthur is jumping up and down about.
		Now, I don't think they're currently alive.
		I think they are dead.
		They're fossilized.
		But if that's true, it means that you could find a tremendous panoply of the whole biological spectrum on Mars waiting for human expeditions like you have here on Earth.
		And it isn't going to be hard to find the big stuff because they're huge.
		They are enormous if we're right.
		And we published them, as I said, last year.
		You probably may have missed those images, but they're just astonishing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're right.
		I missed them.
		I only saw the glass worm.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I will put up tomorrow on the web the reposted link to them so everybody can see what these big possible fossils look like.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But they're just so, I mean, they just look so organic.
		I mean, Robin, you know, who has a medical background, she looks at them.
		She says, those are like skeletons.
		They look like the cross-sections of a bone where you get the honeycombing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they actually do, yes.
		Sure, they do.
		I also saw some pictures that you put up of what appeared to be, you know, I could swear, even to my eye, it looks like foliage on Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's the trees.
unidentified		They look like trees.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They look like trees.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, they could be from an ancient nature.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And there's no oxygen, so they'd be covered and uncovered with CO2, frost, snow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Like dry ice.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know, how do you preserve it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly the way they look.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You pack them in dry ice, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the way they look.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So if these are primitive ancient organisms, they may be preserved, and I think they are going to be huge.
		I think this is the big untold story of Mars.
		When we finally get there, we're going to find that life was there and it was big.
		You know, the old joke about the 800-pound gorilla.
unidentified		Well, think about this, though.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If you had big life, and if you had enough time to develop all the incredible intricacies, say that later tonight, intricacies of life on Mars, as we did here, what's to stop it, Art, from going to intelligence?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, nothing.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What this now gives us, and I'm really believing this, guys, it gives us a basis to say that the ruins we see at Sidonia and all those other places is indigenous Martian intelligence before the catastrophe.
		And if that was true, and they knew their planet was going to buy the farm, where would they go?
		Where would be the only other place in the whole solar system you could go?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right here.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Right here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we would be the obvious choice.
unidentified		Yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, we've got to adjust the time scales because there are parts of the time periods that don't fit yet, but that's because we haven't thought long and deep enough.
		I mean, this has all kind of come to a head in the last month.
		We've been really working on this paper, and I'm so proud of it because Mike and I, you know, have really put our heart into it.
		We've got, it's 32 pages, 74 references of all the current things that have been found and all the little pieces you have to put together in the puzzle to support and document your model.
		Nothing doesn't fit.
		That's what's so astonishing.
		There is not one mystery.
		I sound like the great Carconi, right?
		Not one mystery is not explained by this model.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, Richard, if there was large life on Mars and ultimately intelligent life on Mars, particularly life that could have made it to Earth, shouldn't there be far more remnants available to see, even if they're drastically misshapen and almost gone, just as there would be a New York City to see, sort of in a mangled form for millions, if not billions, of years.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Just look at the pictures.
		You have not had time.
		Arthur, of course, has a lot of time down there in Sri Lanka.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And he has looked and looked and looked.
		Now, you know he has a mission going back.
		2001 Mars Odyssey, the NASA spacecraft, is 80-some days away from planetfall at Mars again.
		It's going to go into orbit in October.
		By December, it will be in a position to test this model, Arthur's own spacecraft.
		The day it was launched, April 7th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the one named for him.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The one named for him, yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, they didn't do that because they had nothing better to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, most people get spacecraft named after them after they're gone.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		After they're gone.
		Well, Arthur's very much alive, and he's going to have one hell of a good time because he sent an email, which I've got, to the project manager at Lockheed Martin the day it was launched.
		And he said, I am not quite willing to believe in artifacts yet, but go find them.
		And I think that's his tongue-in-cheek way of saying that he knows more than he's telling.
		And he's basically giving everybody a hint that they have to be there.
		Now, what will his spacecraft do that will test the tidal model?
		It carries three instruments.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you aware of that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are they?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay, one is called TESS, which is a thermal imaging system.
		It's going to give us surface composition data with much higher resolution than the Mars observer in the infrared.
		So it'll give us materials.
		What stuff is made of down there?
		Number two is an instrument called GRS, or Gamma Ray Spectrometer.
		It's going to basically look at gamma rays, which are very high-energetic electromagnetic radiation, very high energy, that are emitted by nuclear events.
		And what it's going to look for is the interaction of cosmic rays, because Mars is daved by cosmic rays like the Earth is.
		And what that does is generate secondary emission from certain elements.
		It can look at like about 20 elements, from hydrogen up through silicon and aluminum and things like that.
		So it's going to map with this gamma-ray gadget the distribution of elements on the surface.
		It's going to look at the hydrogen.
		Now, what is the most likely form that you will find hydrogen on any planet?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Water.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		H2O, right.
		So it will map the hydrogen.
		Science is nothing if it's not prediction.
		A key prediction of this model tonight, Art, on your show and in our paper, is that when Odyssey gets there and begins mapping in December with the gamma-ray instrument, it will find two anomalous bimodal pools of hydrogen on both sides of the planet, Sarsis and Arabia, and almost nothing in between.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that would certainly solidify your model.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Indicate the presence of underground water.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Agreed.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Number two, it carries a gadget called Maria, which stands for Mars Radiation, et cetera, et cetera.
		And NASA claims that they're measuring the ambient environment to see if it's safe for astronauts.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I said to, oh, I forget who I told this to, that it didn't make any sense because the Mars radiation environment is the same as here.
		We already have measured it with spacecraft, so who needs to measure it on Mars?
		But maybe there's a hidden agenda.
		God, NASA having a hidden agenda?
unidentified		I can't believe I said that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they already know all this.
		Now, remember, we know now tonight that Mars had to be tidally locked around a big planet.
		And that planet got destroyed somehow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if they already know this, what are they measuring for?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Ah, because there are two modes of destruction.
		One is the collision, which is kind of normal.
		And the other is the explosion.
		Remember, Tom's biggest problem has been he can't explain to folks how you blow a planet up.
		You can't go out and get to the Acme planet blowing up kit in the back of, you know, those, remember the comic books that used to have all these ads?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You can't buy one and do it in your garage, thank God.
		We think the hyperdimensional physics model gives you more than enough energy to blow a planet up.
		And if that is true, when Odyssey gets there and begins measuring the radioactives on the surface, if the planet was destroyed and the material splatted on the southern hemisphere, there should be very weird radioactive signatures still there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very true, yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		From aluminum-26 and magnesium.
		I forget all the elements, but we have them in the paper, all right?
		Those should be incredible crystal-clear signatures of an anomalous nuclear-class event, because blowing up a planet involves nuclear energy level energies, and they should be splattered all over Mars, and that's what the GRS and Maria would find and map if, in fact, that's true.
		Now, why would that be useful to a manned Mars mission?
		Because if this all took place 65 million years ago, which is just yesterday, some of those isotopes could still be hot, Art.
		And they might be too hot to land near, so you don't want to land where there's a big radioactive thing.
		So that's why Maria, I think, is being carried on Odyssey.
		Because they're measuring the environment to basically refine the model.
		No, no, no.
		They've only measured here.
		They've never measured on Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But the only environment that we know is radioactive is cosmic rays.
		So if you measure cosmic rays at the Earth and you measure them at Mars, it's the same thing.
		Cosmic rays come from the galaxy.
		So there's no source of radiation near Mars.
		Or there shouldn't be.
		Unless it's the surface itself, which is still hot from the detonation the blue planet will come.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the third device?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's the thermal camera.
		There's the GRS, the gamma-ray measuring, and Maria, which is the Mars radiation instrument.
		Maria is the acronym.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so you're hoping this will then verify everything you sort of just said.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Basically.
		And that's the test.
		The first test is where is the water?
		And the water should be in two pools under those ancient oceans of Tharsis and Arabia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if it is, this means a manned mission, a Mars base.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap.
		Because we know how to do it.
		The problem is living off the land, as Ubern says, and this would allow us to live off the land.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Live off the land.
		Live on Mars.
		And perhaps even begin slowly converting Mars.
unidentified		Back to what it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hold on, Richard.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		My guest is Richard C. Hoagland, and he's laid it out for you what he thinks the mystery of Mars was and is, and what it would mean for us and might mean for us relatively soon if we get off our butts and get on the way back to Mars.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		I love you.
		Please reach out, Bell.
		They've got Kingdom of Nile.
		From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you've got to admit, what Richard has said tonight makes sense.
		I suppose now the next step is to get all of this peer reviewed.
		And should it come true, should all of this begin to bear fruit, then I guess we know where the manned mission to Mars would go.
		There'd be no choice about it.
		It would go where the water is.
		You got to love the double one.
		That's really cool.
		Once again, back to Richard C. Hogwind.
		Richard, you're back on.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Ancient Lightning on Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, man, that sounds so cool.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you'll listen to that as you watch the last picture, the one really taken by Hubble of Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is really a cool picture.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yep, and there's water there.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's what the blue is.
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right?
unidentified		Yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, there's a loop.
		Now, we can go further.
		We can tell now what happened after this incredible catastrophe.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, it's like, what would have happened?
		The waters would have been released from their tidal lock.
		I mean, imagine oceans, two oceans sitting like two huge circular swimming pools on opposite sides of the planet for hundreds of millions of years.
		What happens with tides art is that the whole planet gets deformed, you're like squishing an egg.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the water in between, because of the way the tide, we have a diagram in the paper that shows how the force lines go into the planet at right angles to the tidal line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So basically, there's a band around the middle of Mars that would be really bone dry.
		And all the water would have been on these two poles.
		Now, why would it just sit there?
		Why wouldn't it go like the Earth, would tides go around the Earth?
		Because the planet was locked with one side facing planet 5.
		It wasn't rotating like we are relative to the Moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which, of course, is why you believe they put the artifacts like phase on Mars facing in that direction.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And the angles and the tilts and the geometry.
		And by the way, these so-called tunnels that we found, the glass tunnels, which are all Helder-Schilder, they now, if that was a living site, if that was a city, as we say, and there are other places around Mars, but that one is the one we've looked at, obviously the hardest, they would have to have water, right?
unidentified		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Where would the water have to come from?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		From one of the two oceans.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Right?
		Except for a little rain, which would quickly go away.
		The main water would be on one of those two oceans, so you'd have to construct pipelines to bring water to that desert strip in between.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we now might imagine that these incredible tubes we see.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Are the huge conduits for water, and the reason that they're all held or stelter is because of seismic energy.
		People have said on the web, I mean, there's a lot of anomalous now, researchers, you know, commenting and looking and sharing data and all that.
		There's a huge growth industry, which I'm so glad to see because it takes a huge burden off what a few of us have been trying to do all these years.
		It's now unstoppable.
		And I'm hoping this community looks at this model, says to NASA, you guys have got to fess up and be serious about this and go back.
		Just like you said, we need the manned mission now.
		But one of their complaints has been about the big tubes as man-made, as artificial, is that they appear not to have an orderly geometry.
		Well, this model explains that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can imagine that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, the amount of geological action that would have been going on would not give them much geometry except at the micro level.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		At the moment of collision, when half that planet got hit by the explosion, I've calculated, based on models which are, again, referenced in the paper, the amount of seismic energy that would have been imparted to Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Can you say Richter-15 earthquake?
unidentified		Yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Do you understand what would happen?
		I mean, not you, but everybody out there in the country, if the ground were to shake with a Richter-15 earthquake?
		Every number on the Richter scale is 10 times the previous number.
		So the earthquake that leveled San Francisco was 8.
		What, 6, I think, back in 1911?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something like that, yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Imagine an earthquake 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 times greater all over the planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, would shake everything to the ground.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Or if they were made of stern stuff, which we think they are, it would make them go all cockawampus.
		Sure.
		And so there would be no pattern left.
		The only pattern would be the integrity of the links themselves, if they are artificially made.
		If they're organisms, huge organisms, they would have died at the moment of the impact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So you're looking at fossils then buried by material falling on top.
		I was going to get back to why the stains were so dark and how really cool this is.
		Because when Viking landed in 76, we got our first surface chemistry.
		And one of the things that popped out of the chemistry, which is the actual analysis of what the elements are, was an anomalous amount of sulfur.
		There's 43 times more sulfur on the surface of Mars than there is on the surface of the Earth.
		That's a lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, where does sulfur come from?
		Well, it turns out that sulfur is beneath our feet.
		It's buried in the mattle and the cores of planets.
		If a planet spews its guts all over you, all right, you're going to have a lot of surface sulfur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so you do, and volcanoes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And that's what we have.
		And we have, exactly, volcanoes are belching up sulfur in the mattle of the Earth.
		This sulfur on the surface appears now from the Mars Global Surveyor data to be in the form of sulfates, which are oxidized forms of sulfur.
		But I turned to a chemistry friend of mine.
		In fact, you know him.
		Remember the guy that I connected you with for the chemtrail problem, Mike Castle?
unidentified		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I called Mike and I said, okay, Mike, I've got this chemistry.
		What happens if I wet it?
		What do I get?
		And he said, oh, you get, and then he gave me the equations of what you would get.
		The water coming up underneath, even had a salt in it, interacting with the sulfur-rich surface stuff, would produce sulfuric acid, which would then react with the iron.
		There's a lot of iron, right?
		That's why it's red.
		Sure.
		To produce iron sulfide, which is pitch black.
		So I think the stains are pitch black iron sulfide from the surface sulfur iron materials being wetted by water from underground.
		Then over time, five years, ten years, twenty years, the little bit of oxygen that's released by the ultraviolet working on the CO2 would oxidize the iron sulfide back into iron oxides and sulfates.
		So they would go back to faded ground.
		Except if they're also salts in this water, the salts would remain as a whitish stain.
		And if you look at that picture, number two, you can see the sequence in these images.
		Old, medium, and young stains.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yup, you can.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		go through the season.
		So again and again, the specifics of this model answers everything.
		We will have 15 minutes, so we probably can't do it tonight.
		But I'll bet there isn't one question that could be posed about Mars now that this model cannot answer.
		That's how powerful and confident I am that we're really onto it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, do you think you're going to be able to get a good peer review?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's all a matter of the politics.
		If people out there really demand that there be honesty, and we know there are a lot of young churches in the planetary science community who listen to your show, who look at our websites, all right?
		That's why we're putting this paper in PDF form so they can download it in the conventional format.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's kind of like when Playboy used to be so avant-garde people would take it home in a brown paper wrapper.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Can you imagine 3 o'clock in the morning, various planetary science guys tiptoeing down to their dens and logging onto Enterprise and downloading the paper?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So no one Knows, but because it's so powerful and it answers so many things, what I'm really thinking is inside the system, even if we don't get it published in a peer-reviewed journal, with the net now it's almost irrelevant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It almost is.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because the net is democratic.
		The net is everywhere, and everybody talks to everybody, particularly with email.
		So it's going to get rid.
		And we're going to make sure we're going to send copies to all the key people in electronic form so they can't avoid having it come in their mailbox.
		It's going to have to take root somewhere because it answers too many questions.
		And if you're serious about finding out, if you're really a scientist at heart and you want to know what makes things tick, it's got to percolate down to where even if they never acknowledge that we came up with it, which I doubt they would do, like Europa, it will get used and moved and it will move process and will have missions based on this model.
		And that is another political prediction tonight.
		I think this is so powerful.
		You know, an idea whose time has come that it will get used even if it's abused.
		And we, again, you know, kind of get ignored.
		But in the short term, I don't care about that because, as you said very rightly opening the show, if this is true, if the water is there in the amounts we now believe, it makes a manned mission mandated for a whole bunch of reasons and economically trivial to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How can live off that?
		How hard would it be, assuming that you are correct and the water is there, for a manned mission to derive everything they would need to virtually sustain life?
		I don't see that part yet.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's what happens.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You land on Mars where these stains are and there are areas, by the way, you know the...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's say you find water.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		How close to the surface is the water?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's say it's close.
		Let's say it's easy.
		Fine.
		You find water.
		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What does water give you?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Water gives you oxygen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So you don't have to take a lot of oxygen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Water gives you water.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know, one human being takes how many kilograms per day to live.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but where do your hamburgers come from?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, you take it as freeze-dried food.
		But you can also, if you want to live as a colony, you build greenhouses.
		If you've got water, you've got hydrogen and oxygen.
		We know from the Viking element list, you've got all the other stuff.
		To assemble a biosphere again, the key missing element was the water.
		If there's enough water there, particularly if it's mixed with other things, you filter out the other things like they're having to do in the space station.
		They take up water and then they don't even recycle it.
		They kind of dump it into space because they don't need to recycle it in the space station, but you'd need to recycle on a long mission to Mars or else you'd have to take a huge amount of weight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If there's water there, it's again the Lewis and Clark model.
		Lewis and Clark did not take everything with them.
		They ate along the way.
		They hunted along the way.
		Well, you can't hunt on Mars, but you can grow things.
		You can grow chickens.
		You can grow the soyburgers.
		You can grow all kinds of plants, corn and soybeans and other things, provided you got water.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They would be able to extract enough oxygen from the water for their needs and for greenhouses and or whatever else?
		Absolutely.
		But what else does water give you?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It gives you rocket fuel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hydrogen.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Hydrogen and oxygen.
unidentified		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You split it with solar energy or nuclear energy or hyperdimensional energy, you know, one of these gadgets you don't think exists, which do, and you have all the rocket fuel you'd ever want.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All I ask is you deliver me one.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You're on.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm awaiting.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The point is that with water, known supply, able to be seen on the images, where you can land there on the map and know you can drill down three feet and get to it, you have licked the problem of the manned Mars problem.
		And you have made it incredibly cheap.
		Zubrin has got a neat idea.
		By the way, you ever talk to him?
		Ever had him on the show?
unidentified		No.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You should have Robert Zubrin.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And we should, in fact, you should have both of us, and we should go over this model and have him look at it with you kind of like the arbiter as to how it helps him politically accomplish his dream, which is to get men and women to Mars quick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, what would a manned presence on Mars do for us?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the long term, if we're really going to allow planet Earth, if we're going to do dumb, dumb, stupid things, you know, if the climate's going to hell in a handbasket and chemtrails are a desperate effort to paper it over and keep it all fat and happy until it's too hot, it's our lifeboat.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I frankly think that NASA has been working on this for a long time quietly and gently, and we've published many.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would imply they know, in all likelihood, or perhaps positively or absolutely, we're going to need a lifeboat.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Now, if you go to Enterprise, if you go to the top of our page, you will see this logo.
		In fact, can you do that, Art, while we're talking about this?
		Because I want to comment on something.
		Go to Enterprise main page.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'm working on it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		very top under the "Now Hear This" we have a rectangle and we say in the rectangle, "Attention, in this year of discovery, 2001, the Enterprise mission announces the launching of a major new research initiative..." Prepare to be swept away by the tides of Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now look at the thing on the left, the logo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's the official NASA JPL logo for the Mars Surveyor Program.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And look at Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, as I'm looking.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's half modern Mars and half...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's clustered in one little area.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Like a tidal Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It absolutely is.
		Yes, take a look at it, folks.
		It's true.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, one of the cool things in our paper is that we have a painting by Arthur Clark, my dear friend Arthur.
		About 10 years ago, he published a book called The Snows of Olympus.
		That's back when computers were kind of newer and he was all jazzed by something called Vistapro, which allowed him to mock up synthetic worlds in the computer.
		And he chose Mars, and he did scene after scene after scene, and he was entranced by Olympus Mons.
		Olympus Mons is this huge volcano the size of Arizona or Kansas, Darcy, sitting on the top of the Tharsis bulge at 19.5 degrees, by the way.
		That's also in this model.
		And around this huge volcano, the biggest in the solar system, I mean, you know, one volcano the size of Arizona, I mean, give me a break.
		That's enormous.
		Now we understand because it was extruded in the regime of the tidal influence of Planet V. But around this huge volcano, there is an enormous cliff, Art, 22,000 feet high.
		22,000 feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Big cliff.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's one hell of a hang-gliding cliff, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it sure is.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Nobody's been able to explain this cliff.
		It is our proposal that this cliff was because Olympus stuck up above the ocean.
		And that cliff is where the water, for hundreds of millions of years, beat against the shore, like the white cliffs of Dover, and eroded those basalt lava flows into vertical or semi-vertical cliffs.
		They're actually 20, 30 degree angles, over hundreds of millions of years.
		When Arthur did the snows of Olympus 10 years ago, he painted a scene, which we have in the paper, of Starsis surrounded by an ocean beating at those cliffs.
		Now he claims that that's what will happen if we terraform a future Mars and melt the ice caps and the water rises.
		The problem is, boys and girls, that under current conditions, the waters could never get as high as a Tharsis bulge.
		The bulge is too high.
unidentified		It sticks up 25 kilometers in the sky.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So how could he know there might have been an ocean or could be an ocean to lap at those clips, to create those cliffs?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's why I put the picture in the paper, because I think Arthur knows a little more than he's been telling me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Arthur has always been very good at that kind of predictive science fiction.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In fact, we're sending him his own very special copy of this paper, and I will be able to tell you in a few days what he thinks.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He'll either think we're totally cracked, or I think most reasonable people will look at this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think you're totally cracked.
		I think this is quite reasonable.
		I'm not as sure of the fifth planet that you talk about, but the rest of this really does make sense.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, but here's our problem.
unidentified		If you've got a big guy for Mars to be a satellite of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So that's what tells me that Tom has been right.
		Now, has he been right about it blowing up, or has he just been right about its existence?
		Kind of doesn't matter.
		Actually, it'd be kind of cool if we find the planets can blow up, because then we can find out ways to keep them from blowing up.
		You know, knowledge is important.
		Very important.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would prefer the model where planets don't blow up.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, either way, you've got to live with the universe you got.
		So if that's the universe we have, we need to know it.
		And Mars Odyssey, with those radiation measurements, will tell us.
		And you know, the other neat thing it's going to tell us, Art?
		When it happened.
		Because what's the key signature of radioactive elements?
		They have half-lives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which means you can reel back the clock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Well, maybe this latest graph will tell us that.
		Listen, Richard, we're right at the end of the program.
		Is there anything you'd like to promo?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, go to the web and read the paper.
		And obviously, we want people to politic, the planetary science community and NASA, to look at this seriously.
		And if you want to know the backstory, in other words, if all the work we've done on Sidonia means anything in this context now, you might want to take a look at the Monuments of Mars or the video series we have.
		And there's an 800 number, which is 1-800-350-4639.
		That's 1-800-350-4639.
		And the new 2001 edition of Monuments with some of this neat stuff in it will be going to the printer in September and available probably a month after.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's 1-800-350-4639.
		Wanted to get you to promo something for this gift you have given us.
		I hope a lot of people go and do the reading.
		And I'm sure some of them, Richard, I promise you, will get back to me.
		I bet they do.
		I bet they do, too.
		And when they do, perhaps we'll arrange some sort of debate.
		Perhaps we'll arrange another guest or two to come on with you, and we'll find out what they think of this new model.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This should be taken seriously and should be addressed at that level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		Wonderful night, Richard.
		Thank you, as always.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, my friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
		All right, that's Richard C. Hoagland.
		And that was a lot about Mars, wasn't it?
		Tomorrow night, Sean David Morton will be here.
		Next week, we'll resume the five-hour schedule.

▲