Dr. David M. Jacobs, a Temple University historian and 35-year UFO researcher, presents his edited book UFOs and Abductions: Challenging the Borders of Knowledge, the first academic work in decades to frame abductions as systematic, non-human programs involving hybrid reproduction—2% to 5% of Americans may be affected. Callers describe telepathic enforcement of secrecy, species targeting AB-negative blood types, and patented military tech from encounters, while Jacobs cautions against dismissing trauma as mere psychology. Yet skepticism lingers: MIT’s 1992 conference questioned hypnosis-induced memory reliability, and callers clash over whether abductions stem from cold invasion or a "Luciferian rebellion" tied to Earth’s ascension—suggesting humanity’s fate hinges on resisting or adapting to an unseen, controlling force. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert in the great American Southwest.
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Good morning.
This will be an interesting week, and we'll lead it off with Dr. Jacobs, one of my favorite guests of all time, because we agree.
Dr. Jacobs is one of the only people to ever suggest that the visitations that we're getting from elsewhere may not be the warm, fuzzy little guys that so many people imagine them to be.
That the guys waiting with the needles and the probes just may not be who you want them to be.
So, Dr. Jacobs tonight in a few moments, as a matter of fact.
Now, we have new guys tonight.
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For those of you from Tulsa, I know many listening long distance to various stations.
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We have just landed in Tulsa on KTBZ 1430 on the dial.
And they will carry the entire program every night.
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Good to be in Dubuque now, too.
1490 on the dial in Dubuque.
So two new ones tonight, Tulsa and Dubuque, Iowa.
Tulsa, Oklahoma, Dubuque, Iowa.
That's excellent.
And we are so close to 500 affiliates right now.
And actually, once we get there, we may, let's put it this way, we're within reach of being the largest talk show, period, in number of affiliates.
And so we may take a race toward that mark.
Already we are the largest talk show in the history of the country, nighttime talk show.
Affiliate-wise, certainly we are there now.
However, as we're about to hit the 500 mark, and I can't tell you it's very close though, from that point, we're going to be racing toward the next mark, which will be the largest number of affiliates ever gathered by any talk show.
Ever.
Which would be an interesting goal to pursue.
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so if you'll stay right there tonight will kick it off with a guest and a good one too dr david m jacobs coming up Dr. David M. Jacobs is Associate Professor of History at Temple University, specializing in 20th century American history and culture.
That's us.
He is the former director of the American Studies Program.
Dr. Jacobs has been a UFO researcher for 35 years, long time.
In 1973, he completed his doctoral dissertation in the field of intellectual history.
That's interesting.
We'll have to talk about that.
At the University of Wisconsin-Madison on the controversy over identified, unidentified, or are they now, identified flying objects in America.
This was only the second Ph.D. degree granted involving a UFO-related theme.
Indiana University Press published a revised version of his dissertation by Indiana University Press as The UFO Controversy in America in 1975.
It was the first positive book toward UFOs published by an academic press.
He's written and delivered many articles, papers, and addresses on the subject of UFOs and abductions, has been a consultant to the major UFO organizations for many of them.
For over 20 years, he has offered the only regular curriculum university course on UFOs, UFOs in American society.
He delivered the first paper to a scientific organization about the abduction phenomena, Cornell University in 1989, participated in the first session on UFOs at the History of Science Society, Washington, D.C. in 92, developed the first scientific topology of the abduction experience.
Since the early 80s, he specialized in the UFO abduction phenomena, conducted more than 800 hypnotic regressions, 800, with over 130 abductees has lectured widely on the subject, giving papers at universities and colleges all across our country.
Dr. Jacobs and colleague Bud Hopkins, you know, Bud, conducted the much-discussed Roper Organization poll of the abduction phenomenon.
The results of that highly influential survey were published in 1992 in the booklet Unusual Personal Experiences, commissioned by Bob Bigelow.
Remember that?
He has just done so much.
He has so many books.
And we're going to discuss, in all probability, all of his books.
So the one that I really fell in love with, I think, along with, I guess, a lot of the rest of the country, was The Threat.
He's got a brand new book, though, and we'll tell you about that.
The threat I fell in love with because The Threat outlined perhaps an unpopular notion, and that is that these beings may not be what we hope they are all warm and friendly.
It's edited by me, and it includes 10 authors, and it's published by an academic press also, and it's really only the second academic press book that takes primarily a positive viewpoint towards UFOs and abductions that's been published in the last half century.
It's really a not very good sort of comment on the academic world and this subject.
Well, it's called UFOs and Abductions Challenging the Borders of Knowledge.
And I've contributed a chapter, of course, and Bud Hopkins and John Mack and Eddie Bullard and Jerry Clark and Don Dondre, Stuart Appell, and for people into UFO research, they'll recognize these names.
Yeah, Michael Swords and Michael Persinger, who did a sort of a negative article up in Ontario, and Ron Westrom and so forth.
And I hope I didn't leave anybody out, but it's a really solid, well-done, I think, book.
And Michael Briggs at the University of Kansas Press was instrumental in making it into a first-rate book.
And so I'm very proud of it and pleased with it.
And it's aimed at the academic community because, you know, most academics not only don't know anything about the subject, but they don't know that there is anything to know about the subject.
They don't know that there's a there-there, as they say.
I got interested in the subject in the mid-1960s, and by the late 60s, I was subscribing to Flying Saucer Review, and then I joined NICAP and APRO and became a, quote, field investigator, end, quote, for APRO back in the late 60s and early 70s.
And that's where I published my first words on the subject was through APRO, actually.
In terms of my personal opinion about this subject, I tend to, you know, everybody these days is a skeptic or a debunker or good on UFOs and bad on abductions or whatever.
And if I stay away from abductees for a long period of time, I begin to think, well, you know, maybe I was barking up the wrong tree.
Maybe my life has been totally wasted, for example.
But these thoughts kind of come into me.
And then I get back to the data, and I get back to abductees, and I get back to the testimony, and I think, no, no, no, no, no.
I did the right thing as far as I'm concerned.
I always have doubts, of course, but the evidence just overwhelms it every time I go back to it.
So I'm pretty much, as I said for the threat, it's a downright embarrassing book, and I am embarrassed by it, but at the same time, I'm really quite confident that it's not.
you know obviously for an academic to come out in Well, I mean, unfortunately, most abduction researchers have to say this eventually, but, you know, this is a deal which is reproductively oriented, and there's sort of a sexual component to it at times.
And what I'm saying in this book is that women are being used as hosts for hybrid babies.
Well, I went further than that, and then I talked about what I thought was the meaning of all this, and I did talk about the fact that I think that ultimately this is probably some sort of an integration program or integration program or a colonization or a takeover.
I'm not sure what phrase To use because I don't know how the shape of it will be in the future.
But I do think that this is a situation where we're not looking at a study, we're not looking at an experiment, we're not looking at a learning situation.
What we're seeing here is a systematic program, a systematic agenda, in essence, that has a beginning, a middle, and an end.
It's goal-directed, and it's primarily for these beings' purposes and not necessarily for us.
And, you know, when you say things like that, that aliens from another planet are coming down here and having sex with women to take over the country of the planet or whatever, I'd say that's pretty far out.
And, you know, I'll talk with people who've had abduction experiences, who've never read anything that I've written, and who really don't know much about the subject.
And they'll come out in hypnosis with the same things.
You know, I've been doing radio for a whole lot of years now on related subjects.
And in the early years, even though we talked about abduction, women would never call the show ever and say that they had had sexual experiences in connection with abduction.
But in the last couple of years, in the last two or three years, and especially the last year, I've been getting a lot of those calls, Doctor.
Yeah, you know, I don't think this is going to go away.
I think we're in for the long haul with this, and it's opening up, it's becoming safer for people to come forward, and more and more people are recognizing that these odd things are happening to them.
And it's programs like yours that have allowed for that to happen because they've opened up channels of communication and safety for people.
And there's a ripple effect throughout the society.
And in general, a lot of the publicity that's in the past two decades over the subject has done that.
Well, what happens is that in my opinion, and now I can't tell you actual statistics.
I'd have to go back in my own files and start leaking through and see how many reported a pregnancy that turned out not to be a pregnancy, you know.
And I hope your audience understands that as a person who's used as a host for a hybrid fetus, and I know that I'm saying a lot for people who, excuse me, who just might be tuning in and not know much about the subject,
but what we found, and what actually what Bud Hopkins found in the early 1980s was that these sort of reproductive aspects were involved in the subject and that women were being implanted with these little fetuses or embryos and then they were removed sometime later so they're pregnant and then they're mysteriously not pregnant.
My guess is that virtually all of the women whom I've worked with have had that.
Now the problem is that sometimes when I work with somebody, I'll only see them once.
and so we'd have not felt the relationship enough to to find that all the inner particulars of the person's life but people who are worked with for any number for any period of time will immediately say that because that is ultimately one of the reasons why they're being abducted why would why would they need these women Obviously, yes, for reproductive purposes, but I mean, I didn't mean - I guess I should rephrase my question.
We really don't know why they need to have men and women, why this aspect takes place, because one would assume that we know that they take eggs and sperm, and then this has been a constant in this phenomenon forever, practically.
But if you take a couple of gallons of sperm, you've got enough to last you for a long time, it seems to me.
But if you take a couple hundred thousand follicles and then just sort of have them mature in vitro, why do you need to keep coming back over and over and over again and doing this?
And the answer is, well, we don't know.
And the same thing with using a woman as a host to incubate the fetus.
Why can't they do that through some sort of technological means in vitro in some way?
And the answer to that is, we really don't know.
But your answer is the best one.
And that is they do it because they need these procedures and they need these women and men for reasons that we don't fully understand yet because we just don't have all the answers.
And if that's related to the abduction phenomenon, then it's all part of the same package in some way that we don't understand.
But the fact is, though, that for abductees, this is a constant.
And what I found, which is in the threat, is the fact that the hybridization program is far more complex and far more important than we had ever thought.
In other words, when Bud Hopkins first discovered this back in 19, well, which he wrote up in his book Intruders, we were just astonished.
I remember him calling me up maybe in 1983 or so and telling me that he'd had this case where this woman was presented with this odd little baby, and the baby looked weird, sort of across an alien and a human.
Since we're loosely on the subject, by the way, Dr. Stevens, a heart specialist, had died, and his friends and loved ones were attending his funeral.
His coffin was placed before what appeared to be a mock-up of a very large heart.
Appropriate, I guess, for a heart specialist, huh?
When the priest had finished the sermon, and after everyone had said their goodbyes, the heart opened up, and the coffin proceeded to slowly roll inside.
After several moments had passed, the large heart slowly closed.
Just as the heart had closed, one of the mourners started laughing uncontrollably.
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The guy next to him said, what are you laughing at?
In a phenomenon as widespread as this, you're going to get a spectrum of opinion both personally and, of course, societally about what it all means.
And personally, for many abductees, especially those who really don't understand what's happened to them, they live in a kind of coping world where they feel that this is wonderful and it's great and it's all things that are good and kind.
Well, they don't want us to know that they're taking us and that they're doing all this reproductive stuff and they're manufacturing these hybrids and that it's a worldwide phenomenon and that it occupies a tremendous amount of people's lives, time and energy and so forth, because we might want to stop it.
I think primarily, as I might have mentioned before, that the government takes its cues from the scientific community.
And the scientific community not only thinks that it's just total nonsense, but they're resolutely hostile to looking into it, even on the most superficial levels.
And which brings us back to the they're there question.
And so I really think that the government doesn't know.
And the problem is that with all the research into government activities for all these years, and the first sort of government secrecy theories were formed in the late 40s.
But from that time on, from Kehoe's first book in 1950 on, the amount of information that we've gotten from the government in terms of the goals and motivations of this phenomenon has been pretty close to zero.
And once again, what that is, is just people coming forward and saying that they've seen UFOs, and this has nothing to do with motivations and goals, you see.
Oh, no, of course not.
And I think that it's important that people understand that serious people in important positions are UFO witnesses, and they have the ability to differentiate between a UFO and something that's conventional.
I guess my point is that even if they do, we've never uncovered it, never found it, and it's never, the government, doing government research has not aided much in our understanding of the phenomenon itself.
So we just have to take the bull by the horns and do the research ourselves.
now once again this is sort of jumping to a tremendous conclusion without without proper preparation because We do that here all the time.
Well, everything sort of leads to this in my own research, and that is that the key is these little hybrid babies, because people describe them as fetuses being taken from them, and every once in a while they'll be shown these little fetuses.
And we see them as babies and other fetuses actually in tanks, and this is very common, where they're sort of suspended in a nutrient liquid from what I can gather.
And we see them by the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds in this way, and even more at times.
And then people describe them as babies, you know, where they have to hold the babies and feed the babies and all that.
And then we see them as toddlers, and we see them as youngsters, as children, and older children, and adolescents and adults, and sometimes even older adults, although with a tremendously decreasing frequency of that.
But the fact is, though, that we see them throughout a lifespan.
And what we've seen also is that they don't just grow up and just hang around, you know, smoking cigarettes and watching TV and all that.
We see them actively engaged in the abduction phenomenon as well.
And recently, in the thread, I've talked a little bit about hybrid life.
You know, what do hybrids do Saturday night and all that sort of stuff?
And what we see is these sort of class or learning situations where hybrid children are learning things, and we see older hybrids having tasks within the abduction scenario.
Anything is possible, and my guess is that you probably would not be able to tell, because what I found is that hybridization is not simply taking egg and sperm and putting them together and altering the zygote in some way, that there is stages of hybridization, and they become increasingly more human while retaining key sort of alien qualities.
And I know that this sounds totally insane, as I said it would.
There's a certain logic that's built in here that it all sort of inexorably points to.
It doesn't point to many other directions from what I can see.
But the point is that the hybrids, when they're young, they're extremely interested in Earth.
They're extremely interested in the flora and the fauna.
They're interested in four-legged animals, and they're interested in family structure, and they're interested in all sorts of things like that.
As if their interest is leading to, I mean, they're interested in so much in Earth that you begin to suspect that there's no reason why they're interested in Earth.
And then I got lots of reports of aliens, of the hybrids and aliens, just saying that in the future we'll all be together and you'll be very happy and we're going to be happy and we're just going to love each other to death.
And in the future, you know, when we're here with you.
In other words, there's never any discussion of finishing a program and going away and saying thanks for your cooperation and we'll see you later and goodbye and good luck.
It's always, when discussions of the future take place, it's always here on earth with you.
And to me, that's slightly unsettling, to tell you the truth.
I don't know what to make of all that, but I've come to think that this is why they're doing these hybrids, who in the later stage hybrids look really very human, quite human.
So the question then is, well, are they walking around and working at the 7-Eleven and all that?
And I used to say, oh, no, no, no, there's no evidence for that at all.
But now I've been hearing reports from people saying that they used to know a person and they think that this person was a hybrid.
And of course, my first answer is, well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But then they would go ahead and begin to describe various traits of this person and the oddities of it.
I think, well, God, I don't know.
Maybe he's onto something here, you know.
And so, and I've heard so many of these stories that I'm thinking, well, I've moved to the position of, I don't know, as opposed to, no, I don't think so.
When I look at alien society, I see a far more regimented society than ours is, a society that has a lot less individuality, that is much more involved with a group ethic, and a society that does not value privacy or anything like that.
And I don't like that kind of society.
To me, that is an alien society.
And the problem here is that these beings have certain powers, certain sort of physical and mental abilities that we do not have.
And they all seem to have it, and so do the hybrids.
Well, but they're still within a certain free ethic.
That is to say, people have a freedom to do what they want to do to a certain extent, maybe less or maybe more in those societies, and certainly more in Japan than maybe in China.
But the way I took this sentence, that this person who was extremely reliable in her memories, I must say.
You know, there isn't any way to gauge that right now.
The closest we've ever been able to come is through that rover poll, flawed though it might have been.
And what we did was we simply asked abductees a lot of questions about unusual experiences in their life, and then we asked non-abductees a lot of questions about unusual experiences in their life.
And we filtered out those questions that abductees answered positively to in the highest numbers, and we asked those questions of 6,000 people randomly selected around the country.
And we came up with a fairly high number that we whittled down in a slightly arbitrary way to only 2% of the American population, but it's probably higher than that.
It's probably 5%, I would say, and maybe even higher than that.
And the problem is that we can't really know because it's a clandestine phenomenon.
And what we know is that tens of thousands of abductees have come forward and said things have happened to them.
But maybe 99.999% of all abductees would answer no to that, even though they're being abducted on a daily basis, for example.
Well, you see, the problem is that they know they've been abducted.
They might remember being on board a UFO and having missing time.
They might remember little snippets, bits and pieces of that.
But sexual contact, they're not necessarily going to remember, as they're not going to remember maybe 99% of everything else that's happened to them without competent investigation.
But now the question you're asking, is it sexual or is it reproductive that you're looking at?
In other words, I've had people on my show that I consider very serious who have reported what they say is sexual contact, which results, I guess, in reproduction, but then the opposite as well, those who report sort of a clinical type of reproductive investigation.
Doctor, hold on, we're at the top of the hour.
We'll be right back.
Dr. David M. Jacobs is my guest, Associate Professor of History at Temple University.
And by now, you should be listening very carefully.
I'm Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified
You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an on-court presentation of Coast to Coast AM from May 29th, 2001.
Everybody is looking for something.
Some of them want to use you.
Some of them want to get used by you.
Some of them want to abuse you.
Some of them want to be abused Sweet deep on me.
Touching the bag on the beam.
You need it to be what you want to be.
No, you can't fool me.
I've been loving you too long.
It started so easy.
You're welcome.
Carry on Carry on Carry on I'm lost in love and I don't know much Was I thinking of love?
I'm not a touch but I'm back on my feet Thank you.
I love you.
He is the first thing you love.
You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 29th, 2001.
doctor david and jacobs associate professor of history temple university is my guest and he'll be right back Back now to Temple University's Dr. David Jacobs.
This is, you realize, of course, when you talk about this, and it's been a long time since you've been on my program, a fairly long time, and a lot of new listeners are out there, and they're going, oh my God, could this really be going on all around us?
Right, well, let me just say in terms of the statistics I said before, was that we don't really know how many people are actually abductees.
All we can say is how many of them had experiences similar to those who are abductees.
So we can't really know that.
But we do know that it is going on all around us because people all around us are reporting it all the time.
And on my website, I have a little questionnaire for people to fill out, which I unfortunately can't answer every one.
But I've gotten questionnaires from all around the world, people who have obviously had very unusual experiences that relates to abductions from what I can tell.
Although one can never know that, obviously, without investigation.
And we know that this has happened.
And I've worked with people who were born in Asia and Africa and, of course, Europe and Latin America and just everywhere.
And this is a global phenomenon, and that, of course, that is consistent with what we've been talking about before, the ultimate purposes of this.
I don't know whether it's uniformly global because I don't know what's happening in Nepal, for example, or Tibet or whatever.
But we do have, well, the concept of a hotspot really, really isn't a concept.
Every person who's from every town in the country has come rushing up to me to tell me that their town is a hotspot of UFO activity, and it's just everywhere.
Every town seems to be that way, at least what people tell me.
But what happens sometimes is that this is an intergenerational phenomenon.
That is to say, if a person is abducted, the chances are that their mother or their father was an abductee as well.
But I think there might be a little bit more to it.
But the point is, though, that in some towns which are more isolated, for example, in Brazil or whatever, there'll be a lot of UFO activity.
And people will start saying that there's a lot of UFOs in this town in the middle of nowhere.
And what has happened, my guess is, and once again, I'm speculating here, but I think I might be right about this.
I don't know.
But is that if the abduction phenomenon is intergenerational, what happens is the people who grow up in this town tend to marry into each other.
They marry people down the block, and then everybody eventually becomes sort of semi-related.
They're cousins and this and that, and they have large, large, large, extended families.
And you get a very rapid growth of abduction activity in that town, and abductees tend to see UFOs in extremely high numbers compared to non-abductees.
Right.
And so that's where you get these little hotspots in the middle of nowhere that makes no sense otherwise.
I guess the first side to the question is, when did this all start?
And the key to this is the intergenerational aspect of it.
We know that it did not start back in the year zero.
We know that because if it is intergenerational, it won't take very many generations through normal spreading out through the society for everybody to be an abductee.
The mystery airship wave took place starting in 1896, 1897, and I know a lot of people feel that this was just a sort of folklore spread, so to speak.
But in my opinion, I think that this might, in fact, have been the first UFO wave, and people were seeing these things, and I think that this might have been the onset of it, at least thereabouts within that decade, anyway.
And they do answer that every once in a while if they deign to answer, and I have to admit most of the time they don't deign to answer.
But one would expect that the answers, if they were interdimensional, to be something like, we live here among you all the time.
We're from here, there, and everywhere.
There's some sort of dimensional.
Well, we don't really get that.
Or if they were from time travelers, and there's built-in problems with time travelers, they'd say, we're from your future, or whatever, you know.
But actually, they invariably will say, well, we're from another place.
And they'll indicate a place in the sky.
Sometimes they'll point up and they'll say, look in that direction and look towards that star and look down a little bit and that's where we're from.
So they usually point to a point in space that would be commensurate with our own space-time continuum.
And they don't live in a parallel universe necessarily or another dimension or anything, which of course doesn't.
It shouldn't matter one way or the other.
I mean, the point is, it's not where they're from that's important.
It's what they're doing here.
That's the important thing.
But the odd thing is, is that if this were psychological, well, we'd know where they were from and everybody would have an answer.
I mean, because that's the very first thing that people think of.
when they're inventing an alien, they always say that the alien came up to them and said they came in peace and they're from the planet Vortec and their name is York, you know.
But we don't get names for aliens, although hybrids sometimes are given names by people.
And we don't know where they're from after all this time.
Now, there might be a reason for that.
And the reason is because there's an awful lot of stars up there in the sky.
More than I can even count.
And some of those stars have names, and some of those stars have numbers.
Most don't.
And therefore, I don't know whether they know whether what they're pointing to, the star would have a name or a number for us.
My guess is it probably would have something.
But would they even know that?
So it may be not possible, in a sense, for them to tell us where they're from in a way that we could understand.
In other words, one of the things that we noticed, you can take a look at what the evidence is, but you can also take a look at what people don't say.
And one of the things that one would expect them to say, and we should be getting, is quite a lot of interest in the political, social, and economic institutions of the society.
And what is an election, and what is a hanging chat, or any question like that.
But actually, we virtually never get any concern or interest in anything societal or political or economic or historical or anything like that.
Now, once again, I'm extrapolating here, obviously, but that their society, their rules, their regulations, their structure will be the one that is salient, not ours.
That's the one that's important to them, not ours.
From what I can gather, the ones that are in charge are what people sometimes call insect-like ones or insectoids or whatever.
And they are very thin.
They don't have any sort of mouth, really, and they don't have any sort of nose or earholes that the gray aliens seem to have.
And they're taller as well.
And they actually will sometimes wear a sort of an odd kind of gown that's quite distinctive and quite striking that there's quite a lot of drawings about now that people don't know that this has been drawn before.
We'll draw it and say everything like this before.
And I'll look at that and say, my God, that's the standard one that we see on these other types of beings.
But anyway, they're the center of activity in the Queen Bee style.
And then come, and I'm going to have to be vague here about reptilians because I really don't know much about reptilians.
I don't see them much, and I have a feeling that these are sort of offshoot things.
But then come aliens, the taller aliens who do most of the specialized procedures for abductees, and the smaller aliens who do more of the menial tasks.
And then come, I think, hybrids.
And then there's early and middle and late stage hybrids, which might look more alien, middle, and then more human.
And they have special tasks that they perform too, depending on the degree of hybridization.
And then comes abductees.
And I think that's sort of the packing order that we see here.
But when you take a look at what happens during abduction activity, it is all extremely systematized.
There's no standing around and wondering what to do next.
There's no joking.
There's no downtime.
There's no taking a plunge in the pool in the back.
There's nothing like that.
It's just strictly business, mister.
And that's all we see.
Now, of course, we're looking at this from a specialized point of view.
We're looking at it from the view of the abductee, and that's the only time that they see them usually is in this kind of procedure.
It depends on the degree of telepathy and how open the society is.
But certainly the whole concept of secrecy and privacy would be extremely different than the kind that society we have.
And the group ethic is all important.
And when we take a look at these aliens of any sort, they all pretty much look alike, you know, and they act alike, and they pretty much think alike, and you don't see rebels and that sort of stuff.
In a sense, you know, people have compared it to that, or certainly, as you said, to the Third Reich before.
And now, those are obviously extrapolations, but you can't help but do that as you see, as more and more people come forward with these descriptions of what's happening to them, and you realize that the other side of this is how these beings are acting.
Maybe this is a silly question, but has it ever occurred to you that saying what you're saying, if you're right, could perhaps be a really dangerous thing for you?
There is a price to pay in academics if you do this.
And you'll notice that you introduced me as associate professor of history.
Yes.
I'm sure that the audience knows that there's three levels of professor.
There's assistant, there's associate, that means with tenure, and there's full, that means sort of with national recognition.
We're all professors, but those are the stepping stones.
And I will remain associate professor of history as long as I continue to do this work.
That's the price.
And so even though I've published more than many of my colleagues who have already been promoted and all that, this is an area which is considered to be illegitimate.
And so it takes a toll on you.
There is a toll to be exacted, so to speak.
But for me, it's worth it.
It's something that I made a decision about a long time ago.
and uh...
that's just just part of the deal you don't expect any There have been things at Temple which didn't go as far as John's did.
Well, you know, as I've said before, one doesn't have the opportunity to make a contribution in a field of enormous potential importance or potentially enormous importance very often in one's life.
And I sort of kind of went on that pathway and just continued on it against all reason and sanity, I guess, and have just continued through my entire adult life doing this.
Dr. David M. Jacobs is here, Associate Professor of History at Temple.
I'm Art Bell, and we're talking about the abduction phenomenon.
Many, many tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people have had it happen to them.
Maybe you're one of those.
If you are, you know what the doctor is talking about.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified
You're listening to Arkbell somewhere in time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 29, 2001.
She's coming in 12 hours light.
The moonlit wings reflect the stars that guide her towards salvation.
I stopped an old man along the way, hoping to find some old forgotten words or ancient mellow games.
He turned to me as if to say, So many people, but it's God knows when it's taken you so long to find out you were wrong when you thought it held everything.
You used to think that it was so easy.
You used to think that it was so easy.
But you're trying, you're trying now.
How do you make it be happy?
How do we make it be happy?
You're crying, you're crying now.
The End You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from May 29th, 2001.
Yeah, I think that there's something to that because I do think that the closest that you can relate this to is a sort of hive mentality where you've got workers and other sort of specialized beings who are just working for one purpose, one goal essentially, and that's for the survival of the hive or for whatever the goal these beings are working for.
And I think that's a good analogy.
You know, this subject is such that I really have become so, I don't know if it's a word as disenchanted with it, but I used to be so excited about studying it.
And when I was younger, I was so thrilled with it and very much taken by the intellectual challenge that it posed.
And now I find it to be really difficult to deal with.
And it's scary.
And I don't like what I hear.
And I don't want people to tell me what they tell me.
And as part of the, there's lots of problems with hypnosis, obviously, and I've gone into that in the thread.
And there's a wonderful essay on hypnosis in UFOs and Abductions, Challenging the Boards of Knowledge book from Kansas, by Bud Hopkins.
But one of the problems that I had when I first started doing hypnosis was that I was too credulous.
I was just sort of taking what people said at face value.
And I got caught on that very, very early on and realized the mistake I was making.
And it was a wonderful thing to be caught so early on at this problem.
But the fact is, though, that, oh gosh, I sort of lost the train for my thought right now.
Anyway, hypnosis is something that is very, very useful in studying this subject, and yet we have to be very careful with it.
And everything that I've been saying is in large part based on hypnotically retrieved testimony, and so you have to take that into consideration.
But for most American people to imagine a future in which we're part of a hive and happy by, I guess, their standards, not ours, that's what you have wars and die for.
And this is not, and as I said, it's not a position I've adopted because I just think it's some sort of a wonderful triumph or something like that.
In fact, in hypnosis, now I picked up my train of thought.
What I've done is I've tried to instill in people to see what will happen the idea that they shouldn't tell me anything bad.
And I've taken at times for some people to have that said, I'll say, I don't want you to tell me anything bad as the last thing I say before we do a regression session to see if it affects anything that they will say later on.
Yeah, and the answer is, no, it doesn't affect anything they say.
They couldn't care less what I say.
What they're interested in is just remembering what happened to them, you know.
But in other words, I've tried to, in some way, put some sort of checks on what I'm hearing just to make sure that what I'm hearing is coming out of me.
Yeah, they remember everything, of course, that's happened to them.
And for them, what's bad is what happens to them physically, usually, personally, and that sort of thing, the intrusive quality of it and all that.
And there is, as we sort of talked about a little bit before, a sexual or reproductive aspect to it.
And I deal with that right then and there in this session.
I mean, they need help getting over that.
And I will intervene right then and there, and we'll talk about it a little bit before they resume their kind of story.
The other things, though, like what this all means and what it's pointing to, they generally don't know that.
All I know is that they're standing in front of a class of little kids, maybe nine years old, all of them are hybrid, and the hybrids are asking them questions about Earth in some way, and they're answering the questions.
That's what they know.
In other words, it's hard for them to put it in a larger context, because I am fortunate enough to be able to hear lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of these kinds of accounts, and I can kind of put it together into a context that makes sense.
But most abductees don't know that.
All they know is what happened to them, so they don't understand that what they're saying is maybe ominous in some way.
Well, most of them know that it's already happened many times in the course of their life.
They've already generally outlined a whole series of odd experiences in their life that they want to look at, that they might, you know, they think maybe it's related, maybe it isn't, but they know that they've had a whole lot of odd things.
However, you're right, it is like being a rape counselor to a certain extent.
And everybody who does this kind of work becomes a therapist.
And I was fortunate enough to work with a psychologist on this for a number of years beforehand.
And so you are a therapist.
You have to say the right thing at the right time right now.
I mean, you can't let things slide.
You've got to help people over the difficult areas that they encounter.
And you have to follow up and keep in touch with them.
And that's what I do.
And so that, in other words, I take somebody on.
And that means a certain amount of emotional output on my part and time and all that.
Oh, I'm sure.
And they can see me for as many times as they want.
It's up to them usually.
And of course, I don't charge for anything that I do.
And the answer is that they do want to know that, but I tell them usually right away that what I'll do with that, with them, is we'll work for a form of intellectual and emotional control over the subject so they can get their lives back in order.
But I can't give them physical control.
I can't stop it from happening.
Now, having said that, as you know from previous conversations, we've had a whole heck of a lot of people who slept underneath the watchful eye of a video camera that's on SLP with a T160 tape in it that will run for eight straight hours.
And as long as that camera is on and as long as everything is working properly, they will not be abducted.
But that doesn't mean that they won't get up at 3 o'clock in the morning and walk towards the camera, as I have tapes showing them doing, and turning it off.
Or just not turn it on, decide, oh, I don't need that camera tonight.
What do I need that for?
Oh, I just, I'll be fine.
I just won't turn it on.
Followed by an event.
And it doesn't mean that they're not going to be abducted during the day or watching television earlier that evening when there is no video camera trained on them.
So it's extremely limited, but at the same time, it gives them a sense of protection, at least.
It gives them a sense of some sort of control, no matter how small, and it allows them to sleep easier, and it gives them a more peaceful feeling, in a sense.
Number one, I think that there's too much water under the bridge.
i don't really don't think that there's much we can do about it now maybe fifty years earlier or earlier we might have been able to Well, the problem here is that it's already advanced through the generations of the 20th century.
And we don't know who 99% of abductees are.
So we really don't know where the front lines are, so to speak.
And the other thing is that you're dealing with a technologically advanced civilization that is necessarily technologically advanced, that they can get here from there.
And it's not just that it's technologically advanced.
And the key problem here, I think, is that it is neurologically advanced.
That is, they can control us and we cannot control them.
And it's sort of a triple whammy in a sense.
So I don't think there's a whole heck of a lot we can do about it.
But the problem here is that the scientific community just has that aversion to this.
And so we haven't had a whole lot of people putting their heads together to try to figure out if there is something that can be done.
But this is going to be, I think what we're looking at here is a very, very alien society.
For example, with telepathy, in telepathy, and I do have this article that I'm submitting to IUR, International UFO Reporter, about this, if they'll run it, which they may not because it may not be appropriate for them.
But with telepathy, you have a situation where you don't have a verbal society, and therefore, even when you look at aliens, you don't see, for example, any kind of facial expression to give you a hint of the exact, for example, you can say something to somebody and raise an eyebrow and they know that you don't mean it, that you're saying the exact opposite to it.
Nothing like that exists in this kind of a society, at least in terms of expressiveness.
We don't see body language, and we see a very restricted range of emotions.
And as a result of that and this restricted range of emotions, the whole world of art and music and literature and color and emotions is very, very different than what we have.
The only thing that we can relate to that they have is this sort of extreme logical mentality for them.
In other words, they have science and 2 plus 2 equals 4 no matter where you are.
And they have advanced science, and therefore they can think logically, and they can do it really, really, really well.
And that's the major touch point.
After that, all bets are off in the kind of society that they live in.
And, you know, it's just, it's really not human.
And when you think about what makes us human, what makes us different from other animals, well, one of the things is our ability to enjoy, our ability to have this sort of expansive emotional expression that gives us all the arts and all the enjoyment and the recreation, everything that everybody loves that we don't necessarily see within the kind of society that these beings represent.
What we see is a society of work, a society of progress, a society of logic and science, and that's it.
So now I may be wrong about that, obviously, but I think that you can really build a substantial case for that just to the idea of restricted emotional range and telepathy.
Well, I think that I've been fortunate in that I've been able to give a tremendous amount of time and energy to this.
I've made this sort of my work, and my teaching schedule is such that I can spend several days at home doing work, and I've been able to work with people over long periods of time.
I see people who I saw 15 years ago, and I've been able to watch what's happened to them over a long course of time.
And I've been able to dig very, very deeply and very minutely into people's experiences.
Do you think that if your conclusions had been less controversial about the nature of the entire phenomena, that you wouldn't have been challenged as academically as you have been?
Well, to a certain extent that went into it, maybe it's hubris or ego or vanity, I don't know, but I felt that I could advance the first sort of evidence-driven idea or hypothesis about what this is about that has yet been advanced.
Now, you've got to remember, and it's important for everybody in the audience to keep this in the absolute forefront of their temporal lobes, and that is that this is human memory recovered through hypnosis administered by amateurs.
You've got to keep that in mind.
This is as weak an evidence, an evidentiary body as one can have.
It doesn't get much worse than this.
At the same time, we have tremendous amounts of it, and even the weakness of it can be controlled for to a certain extent.
And a lot of the accounts are done without hypnosis.
And a lot of the people who I've worked with have PhDs and MDs and are well aware of all the problems of testimony themselves.
Yeah, do we have the ability to resist what's happening?
And we certainly don't right now, it seems to me.
I mean, it's hard enough for us to stop individual abductions.
And I know that there have been people who claim that they can and all that.
But the problem is that most people, when they have abduction experiences, don't even know it themselves, so they don't know what's happened to them, and it's hard for them to say that they've stopped something.
Well, I'm waiting for other people to come forward and sort of verify and validate what I found.
And it might be a long wait, but I think I've done a certain amount of it.
And I think that there are people who are specialists in this sort of resistance, of people in the government, perhaps, or people in the psychological or psychiatric community, who might be able to figure out some ways.
But I think that the first thing that we ought to do is get together people, large numbers of people, who can think very systematically about this in concert and come up with some sort of a plan, no matter how small, and see if it's workable.
But, you know, all this is just, I mean, this is not going to happen probably in my lifetime.
It's just, it's unthinkable at this point.
I mean, it's something that what I'm saying is simply totally crazy, and every right-thinking person out there should be thinking that even as I say it.
So, I mean, you just, I'm sort of at a forward point, I think.
Yeah, and I think that that's going to happen with the threat also, although it's a lot more speculative and therefore I'm a lot more vulnerable and I might be a lot wronger about certain aspects of it.
But I feel that the people who I've worked with and my own controls that I've had over the questions that I've asked and the answers that I've accepted have worked towards a certain solidity that I feel comfortable with, even though I fully realize how crazy it is.
You know, I haven't found a whole lot of people who have a sort of, who feel that they're abductees and who aren't.
I have found some.
That does happen once in a while, but you know, as John Mack says, this is a club that nobody wants to belong to.
And I think he's right about that.
I think most people really are concerned about what has happened to them.
Most people don't immediately think, oh my God, I've been abducted.
They just know that there have been a whole series of odd things happening in their life, and they've been on a fishing expedition to try to figure out what it is.
And it turns out to be this, even against their better judgment, in a sense.
And so there's not a whole lot of wannabes.
Now, there probably are out there, and maybe I just haven't encountered them because I screen other people pretty carefully before I see them.
Well, they fill out a questionnaire, and if they ultimately get through to me, I have them jump through all sorts of hoops and hurdles before they get to me.
I talk with them usually for a couple of hours before they actually enter into my office.
And I normally can tell pretty much whether this is a substantial person or whether this person has got serious mental problems.
I try not to go forward with people like that because we don't know how they're going to handle things that might have happened to them.
and they don't make any other thought to her right obviously and and so are consequently that I worked with one woman who became floridly schizophrenic, who had been hospitalized before I saw her.
This was years ago when I was just beginning.
And we had a whole bunch of sessions, and she progressively got worse and wound up in the hospital again.
And her hallucinations and her fantasies, oddly enough, were not about the abduction phenomenon.
They were about other things in her life, people plotting against her and this and that, interestingly enough.
And of course, I didn't use any of her material in anything.
And the odd thing was, what she described was pretty much the same thing as everybody else described, you know, and I was genuinely concerned about it.
I think that people have suffered silently in their lives thinking that they are totally insane.
And I think that people who might have had those sort of proclivities, who might have had a kind of neurochemical imbalance that could have been functional throughout their lives might have been pushed over the brink by this phenomenon.
yeah that makes sense it but but i don't think it causes the i think that the main mental problem that we've seen with this is depression Remarkable.
Dr. Jacobs, in your book, you stated that there was an individual who at one time you wanted to tell under deep regression hypnosis, and they refused to tell you things.
And you respect that, and they were fearful.
But you didn't press it in your book about whether that person was threatened or not to keep quiet.
Yeah, that just moved on through the book and skipped those kind of people.
I once had a session arranged for one person, and I mean, for a first session with a person, and we had talked for long periods of time, and everything was set up, and she came with a friend of hers, and after about two minutes, she just decided, no, no, no, no, that she wasn't going to tell me this stuff.
She was not supposed to tell me this stuff.
And she got up, and we never did do a session.
And then I had another guy who I did 10 sessions with, and on the 11th session, I guess it was, we were doing a regression, and he was pretty much used to it and pretty much into it and all that.
And he just sat bolt upright and said, I'm not supposed to tell you this.
Really?
And he got up, he mailed me all his tapes that I'd given him back to me.
And he came to several abductee get-togethers that I have, and then he sort of moved out of the area, and he never left the forwarding address, and that was that.
And we had 10 sessions together beforehand.
And then I've had another woman who was told in no uncertain terms that what she was doing was wrong by telling me this, that she shouldn't be doing this.
And I wrote this part up in the book, that they told her that what she was doing was she was endangering future generations by going to a gynecologist, by seeing me, and that sort of stuff.
In other words, she was hurting their program in some way.
But they tried to instill a certain amount of guilt in her as opposed to just warning her or anything like that.
I've had other people who say that who tell them, I'm seeing Dave Jacobs and I'm telling him everything, and he knows all about you.
And their answer is, you know, what do they care?
There is no answer.
Couldn't care less.
unidentified
Dr. Jacobs?
Yes.
In 1965, around the end of the World's Fair, I had a man who came to me who said he was me from the future, or more like not from the future, more like the past future of past Earth of a, what do they call it, alternate universe.
He said he was from a gray ship, and he said that he was me.
My father tried to call the police many a time, and I've seen him off and on through the years.
And in 1965, we were in Salisbury Park walking across a field.
He was talking about a Dr. Jacobs and a book called The Threat.
Now, this was 1965.
And he says this book was never around until years later.
He said, in the 1990s, you're going to see a lot of books about the Grays.
Everything before that, he says, is trash, basically.
Now, I must say I've never heard anything like that, and that person certainly had abilities that I don't have, but certainly there's been a lot of really excellent works on abductions that came before me.
I mean, there was, you know, Bud Hopkins Missing Time and Intruders and An Interrupted Journey by John Fuller and a whole bunch of other really excellent works.
I mean, you can see our advancement of knowledge of this subject incrementally through the years, just like any other subject as more and more evidence accrues and more and more ideas come out of that.
And you do that just by going back through the generations, and you realize that it had to start at a certain point.
It's like taking a look at the Big Bang, and you can see all the planets, all the stars flying apart, rather, and you know that they came from a central point at one time because they're all sort of flying from some direction.
And that's the way the abduction phenomenon is intergenerationally.
And if you go much past the mid-19th century, it starts not to make any sense then because the numbers don't add up.
It's just a simple matter of arithmetic in terms of how many FFPs there would be if you started out with that X number of people in a population over the generations and it's intergenerational and X number of people are born.
You know, you can just work out the math and it doesn't come out to very long.
Well, they know more, I think, what to think about their own experiences, what to think about what's happened to them.
But, you know, it's like the UFO phenomenon in general.
After Kenneth Arnold had his sightings of UFOs and there were other sightings in 1947, then what do you do with all the rest of the sightings from 1947 on if people know what they look like and then they describe them again?
You see what I mean?
You just have to sort of factor that in, that there is this sort of general knowledge about the subject and maybe they are picking it up.
But I'll tell you, when people come to me, they're wringing their hands with worry over two things.
Number one, they don't want to be led.
They don't want the hypnotist to lead them.
They all know about leading, and they don't want to be led.
That's the first thing they tell you.
And the second thing that they're worried about is they don't want to pick up things in the society and parrot them back to me as if it happened to them.
They're keenly, most people are extremely sensitive to that.
They know it.
And they're very careful about their own memories, and they're careful about what they think might have happened or might not have happened to them.
And they'll discuss with you, well, I might have picked this up in the society.
All right, now, what is the fact that a few moments ago you said that a number of patients have just abruptly got up, said, I shouldn't be talking about this, and left, and you've never seen them again?
But if you've had those, and then you have a lot who don't seem to care or who apparently were not instructed to keep silent, what does that suggest about the phenomenon itself?
Well, I think that, once again, that most people can go ahead and just describe what's ever happening to them, and these beings don't particularly care.
The bottom line for them is as long as it does not interfere with the program, for them, continuing the program is the bottom line.
Yeah, and he thought that I could be ducky, so I told him, you know, I always seem like I'm always being watched or something.
Or I go out there, you know, the street lights are always going off and stuff.
And I kept seeing those little off to the side, those spears, you know, and I'd have seen a big spirit that come down, you know, close to the house here.
This is Coast to Coast A.M. You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 29, 2001.
Coast AM from May 29, 2001.
Music When in the springtime of the year, when the trees are crowned with leaves, When the usual look and they're bird and you're dressed in ribbons here When hours cold,
The breathless moon in the moving of the night The shadows of the trees appear In the midst of the lantern night We remember the night In some time of the day Nothing turning back again We bring the garden again
We bring the garden again
to the shady coast Some shadows here tight ring on the sheltering arms in the springtime of the year You're listening to Arkbell somewhere in time tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 29th 2001.
I'll tell you this we're having something really weird go on with our lines here.
I wonder if it relates in any way to uh the subject of the discussion really strange crunches crashes clicks I've never heard anything like it on the phone lines weird anyway uh Dr. Jacobs is here maybe that does have something to do with it and we're talking to abductees and about the subject of abduction and it's not a ride you necessarily want to take we'll get back to Dr. Jacobs and
your calls in a moment Dr. Jacobs if somebody were to be stumbling into our program tonight aside from what they've heard so far they're probably scared out of their minds if they're believing this and if they think they've had an experience themselves and you have four books what would you start them out on well probably secret life actually the
The new one, UFOs and Abductions, is a good sort of primer in what we know about certain areas.
In other words, there's a wonderful article in there by Michael Swords about the early, early Air Force's take on the subject.
And it turns out that they were much more involved with thinking this was extraterrestrial than we had thought before.
And as I said, there's an excellent article by Hopkins on hypnosis.
And I've done a little piece about the history of the abduction controversy in the United States.
And there's some arguments back and forth between people in there and some articles about science.
But if they want to know about the abduction phenomenon, I would start with secret life, probably, and then go on to the threat, which sort of extends our knowledge and brings it up to date.
Right, but sometimes if you're seeing the same tape in the same way over and over again, and if that tape is turned off, you'll suddenly just switch to what was taped the previous night.
Yes, and so you have to be very careful and very discreet.
And I have a woman who I worked with for a very long time who is getting married next month, and she has decided not to tell her new husband.
Oh, my.
And there's another woman who lives in Ohio, who I've talked with for a number of years, who also never told her husband about what's going on.
Although he knows odd things are happening because he sees things every once in a while and all that.
And then other people tell their husbands or their wives, and sometimes their spouses are supportive, and sometimes they're not.
And it's a real problem.
This is part of the hidden life of abductees.
All these problems, the problems of relationships, when people find out about it, and supposing your husband or your wife believes it and thinks it's really happening, and what that can do is that can drive a wedge in a relationship as well, because the person becomes frightened to be around the abductee and doesn't want to sleep in the same bed with him or her.
And there's all these other kind of problems that abductees have that most people don't know about.
Not only that, but there's even more practical problems.
If there's a lot of activity, there's just a problem of sleep deprivation, of getting up in the morning and not being able to function well.
I'm an abduction researcher with CE4 Research Group, and we have right now over 100 documented cases where we've been able to help these abductees, experiencers, defeat their experience and terminate the experience through their faith in the name and authority of Jesus Christ.
We offer hope for these experiences.
I wonder if is there any way that you can honor hope?
It is my experience that it has never worked enough without trying.
I've worked with several people who are ministers.
I'm working right now with a woman who is a member of a nun's order.
And that's all they do is pray.
They're heavily into praying.
Oh, yes.
And obviously, and they are just abducted as many times as anybody else.
Now, the problem here is this.
Most people don't know when experiences have happened to them.
And what happens is they might remember something.
They'll see beings in the room, and they'll get up and they'll yell something out, which might be religious in nature or some sort of incantation that they decided they were going to say if they saw these beings.
And sure enough, the beings leave.
And they've stopped the abduction.
But what they don't realize is that the abduction has already occurred, and they're waking up or remembering it just in the last few seconds.
And they're thinking, well, I've stopped it, you know, and you get quite a lot of that.
But most of the time, people don't even know when it's happening, and then they say it hasn't been happening.
And in fact, if you examine it very closely, it has been happening.
So I wish, I mean, obviously that'd be one of the very first things that people tried many years ago was just reasoning or bargaining or praying or whatever.
You know, Doctor, if I did what that lady did and I suspected, for example, something was happening to my wife or child and put a clock in there, what a brilliant idea, and then ran a VCR with it, and I saw on a fresh tape the kind of jump she said she saw, or a longer one, I would have to sit down.
And the only thing you can do is try to figure out what exactly is happening and gain some sort of intellectual and emotional control over the situation and go on with your life.
And what I try to do with people is get them to the point where they don't obsess on the subject, where I know it sounds crazy.
You have to remember that it's been happening to people since they were born.
It's a lifelong thing.
It's been with them all through their lives.
It's part of their lives in an odd way.
And they have been able to lead a fairly normal life most of the time with it happening.
And what ultimately drives them to find out is some triggering event, you know, that really they begin to think about all the time and they're driven to find out what's been going on.
And once they learn about it, and they learn more and more and more, and they sort of figure out, they realize, listen, I only have one life to live.
This is it, you know.
And they can abduct me for two hours every week or whenever they want, but all the rest of that time is mine and I'm going to live it to the fullest, and I'm just not going to grant them the power over me that they don't care about in the first place.
So I'm going to go ahead and leave my life.
And once I get people to that point, I figure that I've won as good a victory as we're going to get.
It's interesting that you brought me on at this point because my experiences since I was young, and I'm 40 now, have not been traumatic whatsoever.
They haven't been that intense at all.
And I was just wondering how many of your abductees have experiences like mine where I have learned to communicate with them.
It's a visual communication, not a language of any sort, but they sort of basically, as I discussed before, they kind of like download my brain into their computer or whatever it is, and then they're able to communicate to me certain things visually, not like a picture screen, but almost like a dream.
And they can understand what I'm saying because I've learned to speak to them through a visual type concept, through pictures and things, and show him certain things.
And I think that you have to remember that for most people, if it's happened over and over and over and over and over again since the time that they were born, which is what all the evidence seems to suggest, that by the time a person is 40 or 49, they might have had literally hundreds of abductions.
I mean, if it's only five a year, which is very, very low count, at age 40, you're dealing with 200.
I mean, the numbers add up very, very quickly.
And so the question is, how traumatic can it be if you've had these things done to you over and over and over again over all the course of your life?
And the answer is that oftentimes the trauma, oddly enough, comes in remembering it for the first time when they suddenly, when they bring it into memory, and you get this tremendous fear from people.
But I found that after people get used to remembering it, there's still unease and there's still fear and all that, but they become more curious about it and it tends to leave them.
And it's not as traumatic as people might say it is.
So I don't look upon it as some abduction researchers do as just one trauma after another.
Now, there are other things that happen to women, especially, and that is sperm collection procedures where there's sort of sexual contact between humans, which is sexual, and it's not sexual since sperm is collected and all that.
And that can be fairly embarrassing and even traumatic for some people.
And for children, it can be quite traumatic.
I won't go into all the things that can happen, but there's some pretty awful things that can happen too as well.
But during the course of one's life, there is a certain familiarity with all this.
And so it mitigates the trauma to a large extent.
Now, having said that, a lot of people feel that it's spiritually uplifting and all that.
And I've had a lot of people who were intent on recreating that feeling when they went back and remembered their experiences.
And I have not found that yet.
In all these years that I've been doing this, I have not found anything spiritually uplifting or transcendent or anything like that involved in this phenomenon, even by people who desperately want it to be that way.
That's not what they tell me when they begin to remember what happened to them.
You know, maybe we ought to keep doing abductions tonight.
We're going into open lines now.
And I guess we'll sort of leave it that way.
We will leave it In open lines, but you know, I think if you're an abductee and you want to tell us what happened, or is happening, I guess is more like it, then my inclination is to go with that and to kind of stay with that.
So if you're an abductee, try real hard to get through.
And let's see if we can't get you on the air.
Talk about it a little bit.
Can you imagine what if everything he said is true?
What if the entire planet is being assaulted?
what if the idea is that eventually we all are going to join a high and that's As a species, we're going to become the hive.
Alicia, you're going to have to get close to the phone and yell at us because I can barely hear you, hon. Okay, this is Alicia from Wilderville, Oregon.
Much better.
unidentified
Okay.
And my husband and I were abducted three months ago.
It was the first time I had ever remembered anything like that happening.
I guess I'm beginning to see what the professor was talking about.
It's occurring.
What are we going to do about it?
What can we do about it?
If it's from a civilization that far ahead of us technologically and socially and intellectually, then it is as magic to us as Magic or religion or whatever name you want to lay on it.
And my abduction experiences started when I was four years old.
I was missing for three days.
And I didn't really have vivid recall of it until I was about 24 when I was completing my undergraduate studies in clinical psychology, where part of my training, sorry about that, part of my training was to undergo psychological assessment and evaluation by my peers and my mentors, at which time the abduction experiences came to surface.
Now, through the course of the years, and I'm 48 years old now, and I'm educated and have advanced degrees, I've pretty much learned to roll with this thing, as Dr. Jacobs has said.
What has been suggested to me by these friendlies, I call them friendlies, the star people, is they tell me to concentrate on the color blue.
There's a universal color blue that stops the bad ones.
The ones I've encountered are the grays, the blues, and reptilians.
The reptilians are the worst.
I was terrorized.
But I've learned to deal with this and to turn some of this stuff into positive things in terms of what they've told me and showed me regarding technologies that I have turned into issued patents.
And some of the stuff is pretty important things that our military uses.
So, I mean, it's been quite an experience in my life.
And I'm always worried about appearing to be normal.
I once did a study of normalcy and found that in the United States, the normal male spends 20 minutes, approximately, every Saturday morning cleaning doggie do out of his yard.
That issue of normalcy hits a nerve because since my first experience that I realized was an actual experience, part of that made me realize that I never did feel normal around people for the most part.
and since the experience I've made more of an effort to be more normal around people right in the back of your I'm just speaking for myself.
And I was forced to get on the road to drive home from my girlfriend's house.
It was about a 20-minute ride with no traffic, no snow.
And it took me an hour and 45 minutes to get home, whereas it should have taken maybe 40 minutes to get home in the snow.
The snow was about a foot deep.
And I was actually driving along slowly in this virgin snow, kind of enjoying the fact that I was the only one on the road.
On the other side of the patch of woods that divides these two north-south lanes comes this bright light that's pacing me at the same exact speed that I'm going at.
But it's Higher than a car.
It's higher than any car.
And it's not making a sound as far as I could hear.
I rolled down my window to listen to see what kind of a truck or snowmobile or device this was.
It didn't make a sound, but there was this light.
I'd slowed down, it would slow down.
So it was sort of pacing me.
At one point, all of a sudden, it sort of lifted up in a way, in a blink, where I couldn't really turn my neck around to see where it went, but in that lifting up, it was gone.
Wow.
I thought, gee, that was odd.
If that was a truck, I don't know where he could have gotten off the road because there are no exits on that side of the road where he was to get off.
I had dreams that night that my car was stopped in the middle of the snow and I was surrounded by what appeared to be deer with arms and legs and hands.
Now if you look at a deer head on, what do you see?
Large eyes, small face.
Of course you have the big ears because deers have the ears.
But all I could make out were the small statuesque outlines of these small deer that were surrounding my car, which was in place.
A deer coming over to the side of the car, opening my door for me.
And I felt very good.
I felt like this was the right thing to do.
And they helped me out of the car.
One of them took my hand, and I looked down to see a hand coming from a deer.
Like it was a small hand, like a child's hand.
I didn't think anything of it at the time, and it led me away from my car on the road, back toward this very bright light where now I was hearing a little bit of a hum and there was a little bit of steam coming from around the snow.
And I don't remember anything after that from that dream.
Well, I mentioned Zachariah Sitchin to him for obvious reasons.
He was talking about the hive, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
that really is what dr jacobs was talking about the high no other kitchen i've got that the and not you look more that killing because Yeah, Enki was like the called a serpent and a snake.
And the Anunnaki were very emotional beings.
They weren't non-emotional like these beings that he's talking about.
So I think he is talking about the insect types.
And so I thought I would put that in.
And also, this is kind of a comforting thing.
They're always talking about pole shifts.
And everybody's really concerned about the cataclysm coming up if there is a pole shift.
Maybe there won't be one, because if there was going to be a pole shift, these beings are so intelligent they would surely know that.
If they want to occupy the Earth, maybe we could just forget about the pole shift.
In other words, if the Earth is going to be occupied, if in fact we're in the middle of an invasion right now, which is something to contemplate, something to think about.
If we're in the middle of an invasion right now, then what is this whole pole shift stuff?
All we know is, a lot of us know that something is coming.
John Mack and Dave Pritchard were co-chairs for that meeting.
Right.
Yeah.
The title of my paper there was Possible Telepathic Spread of UFO Abduction Stories.
I just made the point that if there was telepathic rapport between aliens and people, that there might be telepathic rapport between people and people and also the abductees and the hypnotherapists.
yeah i think that the question might be how many of them are hybrids mean where you know you don't even have to be a Telepathy happens so frequently between people, and it's actually enhanced.
Telepathic rapport is enhanced by hypnosis.
So I brought up the problem of people doing hypnosis and having in mind the abduction format and then having their subjects extract the story from their own mind and parrot it back to them.
It gets a little complicated.
You don't know if you're hearing what's already in your head.
How do you even know if your own thoughts are original?
Have you ever wondered about that?
How do you know that your own thoughts are original?
You really don't.
If somebody was able to telepathically, in essence, inject a thought into your mind or into the collective consciousness so that it would pop out as sort of an original thought, we'd never know it.
Professor Jacobs seems convinced from an awful lot of research, sir, over 30 years now, 35 years, that you're wrong.
That you may be right about the abduction aspect of the experience, but your comfort with it is just something that either they've manufactured for you or you've manufactured for yourself to be comfortable with the experience.
unidentified
Oh, I consider that, too.
I have.
But the fact is, he's right about one thing.
We can't do anything about it.
We really can't.
But we can learn to flow much better with it, and as we flow better with it, we grow as we flow.
And that's all we can do.
But there is an enjoyable aspect to it, and there is a blossoming aspect to it.
It's happening one by one, and it's happening collectively.
Now, if they want to believe that we are nuts, by all means, examine us, get to know us, talk to us, because we're trying to talk to the source that's causing this, too.
Well, aside from what you've been telling me, you sound completely lucid.
unidentified
Well, I try to be, because I'll tell you, it's not easy.
It really is not easy.
Because these things, it becomes part of your life, and you accept it.
And I'll tell you the truth, if it were to go away tomorrow, I would feel lost.
I would feel totally disoriented, and I would need something greater to hold on to.
Remove this, and it's like taking God out of your life.
I'm not saying this is God, but it's your next step that you're reaching for.
It's like an escalator you're going up.
it's taking you something higher if all of a sudden there were to change But I fear you're not.
Well, yeah, we're all, like I said, the best thing to do is go with the flow, enjoy it, and try to get to know them and give them our highest qualities.
And it was, you know, your typical bright light that did the maneuvers that were impossible and then just sped off.
And then a few months later, I was driving between Chico and the Bay Area, you know, 2 or 3 in the morning, had the missing time saying, oh, two hours, you know, of missing time.
And right before that happened, it looked like a floating city.
That's all I can describe.
It had little windows, and it looked like little stairways above this field.
We did a mile check.
And, you know, it was late at night, so we thought, well, maybe it's a grain field.
But it looked awfully strange.
It had a strange blue glow to it.
And then we went off on our trip.
Now, it was odd because it was a three-hour trip should have, you know, it took us six hours.
So that was a little strange, but we didn't question it because we just, you know, don't.
And came back through, and sure enough, there was nothing there at that same, nothing there.
And the doctor that took it out said he'd never seen anything like it.
So there's these little series of events.
I never strung them together until four years ago.
I started taking.
I was recovering from an illness, and so I had a lot of time on my hands, and I did a lot of oh counseling, meditation groups, you know, so on and so forth.
And things started falling together, and I started remembering things through rebirthing sessions and through this meditation.
And it was a study of sacred geometry and the Merkaba, which is an energy field around the body.
And this is how I understand this whole thing with the greys, because they were greys.
Well, what I understand with the greys is that they're a part of the Luciferian rebellion and that they have become so techno, they have forgotten how to love.
And so what I think, it's all coming up with the ascension or the polar shift or whatever you want to call it that's coming up, you know, soon.
whatever and because if you look at all the clues it's like putting all the dots together and it's starting to become a picture the other thing too that is this Mrs. Hoagland pardon me I was asking if this was Mrs. Hoagland no this is actually when you start talking about dots you know oh dots well all right well listen I think the thing is though is that the grays you know I think they're hybriding because
They need that capacity to love to make the shift because if you're not in the vibration of love and you're with that, if you don't know that, you won't make the shift.
It's a really fast vibration.
It's got a really fast wave as opposed to fear, which has a really slow one.
So the really fast wave activates all the codons, all the amino acids, everything to make us the highest potential human being we can be so we can join our star brothers and sisters.
And so along comes the devil and his people saying, hey, we can get you no more riots, no more labor unrest, no more complete control of your agriculture and everything.
And all you've got to do, you know, is let us complete the genetic experimentation that we're doing.
I hear you.
And for all the people who are saying that this is a positive thing, you know, if I went into your house and took you and did experiments on you against your will, I would be one of the most wanted people in America, especially doing it to kids.
I know, but you know what, that's how people come to terms with it.
If you have something like this happening to you that you have absolutely no control over, no hope of stopping, maybe a slim hope of slowing it down with extraordinary measures, but otherwise really in the long run, you have no way to stop it, no way to control it, no way to make it better.
Then you're going to rationalize it in some way because you want to go on living.
unidentified
Right.
But, and also they say it's positive, but that could be another suggestion put in during their hypnosis when they're positive.