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May 21, 2001 - Art Bell

02:51:31

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Jeffrey Long - NDEs. R.C. Hoagland, Peter Gersten - NASA and Cydonia

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	Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 21, 2001.
	From the high desert in the great American southwest, I bid you all good evening and or good morning wherever you may be across this great land of ours from the island of Guam in the west, eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, south into South America, north all the way to the Poland worldwide on the internet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM and I'm Art Bell.
	Don't forget everybody, we're up on Seaban now.
	I'll keep reminding you, we've got a C-band satellite transponder for those of you out in the boonies with the big dish.
	I think we can, uh, we can take care of you.
	So, if you want to listen to W3 or GE3, whatever you want to call it, transponder 18, that's where the Fox Movie Channel is, and just set your receiver audio for 6.8, wideband audio, there we will be.
	So much to do, so little time tonight.
	I really mean that.
	We've got a very great deal to do.
	Welcome to KIAK in Fairbanks, Alaska.
	970 on the dial in Fairbanks.
	And I'd like to say hi to Pete Hutton, the GM, Clint Michaels, operations manager, Charlie Oh, true.
	I believe it is.
	Oh, that's Chucker.
	That's an old friend of mine.
	Hey, Charlie, how you doing?
	That's Chucker from Anchorage.
	As a matter of fact, I used to work there with Chucker.
	Radio is a very small world indeed.
	Also, a quick note, we'll announce more about this tomorrow night, but moving to, picking up, moving across town to WLAC in Nashville, Tennessee, 50,000 watts on 1510.
	So we've got 1510 covered on both sides of the country, as a matter of fact.
	WLAC, Nashville, Tennessee, 1510, 50,000 watts, and I imagine you can hear them, oh my God, all over the place.
	North to South Canada, I imagine down to the We're working on a number of stories at once, folks.
	mean you know it's just one of those signals so tell you more about that
	officially tomorrow night in a moment the most in we're working on a number of
	stories at once folks as you know we're working on this Cuba story what may well
	turn out or could turn out to be Atlantis this amazing story in Cuba
	We're working that one hard.
	Linda's working it so hard right now, bumping into such interesting walls that she's unwilling to even talk about it all on the telephone.
	So we're going to get an update for you on that in the next two or three days.
	But something's happened with NASA.
	In a moment, Richard C. Hoagland and somebody you haven't heard from in quite a while, Peter Gersten, a now defense attorney in Navajo County, I previously had been the cause guy.
	And we'll tell you, but what's happened with NASA is absolutely astounding.
	Coming right up.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 21st, 2001.
	Alright, we better sit down, curl up near the radio for here comes a large story indeed.
	Richard C. Hoagland, one-time advisor to NASA, science advisor to Walter Cronkite, Angstrom Science Award winner, along tonight with Peter Gersten, a voice from the past, but you haven't heard him in a while.
	Peter Gersten of Cause.
	Peter Gersten, a defense attorney now in Navajo County, Arizona.
	That's right, a defense attorney.
	Uh, he always has been an attorney, but now he is defending the, um, well, I want to say wrongly accused.
	I guess he, he defends everybody who, uh, he needs to defend.
	Gentlemen, welcome to the program.
	I'm going to turn the mic to you and let you unwind your stories.
	Good evening, Art.
	Good evening, Richard.
	Good evening, Arthur.
	Hi, Peter.
	Now, that's good to hear your voice.
	Welcome to Navajo County.
	Well, thank you.
	Actually, you're right.
	It is the first time since your return that I've been on, so welcome back, my friend.
	Well, thank you very much, and the very same to you.
	I admire your profession.
	I watched The Practice with Absolute Religion.
	It's my favorite TV show of them all.
	And now you're a defense attorney, so I can identify with you.
	Anyway, gentlemen, you've got a lot to get on the air.
	Well, I'll tell you what, Peter.
	Let me kind of synopsize how we got to where we are tonight by telling everyone that because of Peter's stalwart efforts in the arena of cause and legal You know, assault against the Freedom of Information Act, vis-a-vis the DoD, and the Triangle.
	Remember the Triangles that were flying over Phoenix and other places in the country?
	You're asking me, do I remember Triangles?
	But there may be people out there who don't.
	Yes, uh-huh.
	Anyway, Peter was reasonably successful in getting all the way up to what was a district court.
	Yes.
	In Phoenix.
	The case is still on appeal.
	Hopefully we will hear the appeal in San Francisco sometime the end of this year.
	Okay.
	And the idea was to get information from inside regarding what the DOD, the military, army, navy, air force, intelligence agencies, whatever, knew about Flying Triangles and what Peter was trying to do in essence with the case was to track the paper trail because he'd asked in his suit For copies of emails and conversations and phone logs and always tracking how the conversation flowed when these things appear and who sees what and who doesn't see what and who reports what to whom.
	Right.
	Peter Gersten is our nation's only UFO lawyer.
	And he's gone to bat for years for UFO related issues.
	But tonight they've got a whopper.
	It better get started.
	Well, based on that, Peter and I engaged in some conversations.
	Could we do the same thing with NASA?
	Could we take NASA to court?
	Could we force them to, A, show us everything they've taken of Cydonia going back, you know, decades?
	And, B, could we force them maybe to take important new pictures that would resolve the issue in some kind of scientific forum?
	And so, Peter came to New Mexico on one trip, I believe, and I went to a seminar in Phoenix, and the bottom line is that with the assistance of another individual, who we shall keep kind of silent tonight, because I want to protect his identity, we were able to get a small pool of funds together, and we put together a consortium of interests in Mars and artifacts and potential artifacts called Facets.
	And Peter, you might tell them what FACETS stands for.
	FACETS is the Formal Action Committee for Extraterrestrial Studies whose primary focus at this time is on the artificial structures on Mars.
	Sounds like a front organization to me.
	It's basically an umbrella.
	All right?
	Enterprise is part of it.
	In other words, let's get this straight.
	FACETS was going to go where Enterprise hasn't gone before.
	Actually, where no one has gone before.
	Right.
	The idea of this organization, folks, so that we might get this done quickly, I guess, was to be able to make a request of NASA that would not appear as though it came from... Obvious political sources.
	Okay.
	So, Peter, do you want to pick it up there?
	Well, on behalf of the Formal Action Committee for Extraterrestrial Studies, and the person's name is David Jinks, and I think we should give him the credit due, because he was the spearhead behind FACETS and behind my sending a letter to NASA on March 16th of this year.
	It was a two-page letter where I summarized the history of what NASA had done on Mars and the fact that based on their own images there was evidence that there were artificial structures on Mars and that since they have the Mars Global Surveyor going around the planet with the orbit camera I think I wrote to them saying I wrote to Gold and then I copied Senator John McCain and basically I said I think we should take advantage of this opportunity and let's take some more
	images of Mars And I said listen, I would like a response within 30 days
	there are also at least five other areas on Mars We want you to reimage so right, but did you request a full-on?
	Photo of the face on Mars. Yes, definitely. I think we even specified the entire face
	I believe only, what is it, only the west side has been imaged so far.
	The northwestern side has been imaged so far.
	Yeah, and there was evidence that basically they had the image of the entire face, but they hadn't released it.
	So we asked, number one, release all the images that you have, that you haven't released so far of Cydonia.
	Number two, re-image the face.
	I think there was another request also.
	So I didn't think they were going to respond at all, and 30 days passed and there was no response.
	I returned to Sedona on Friday night, and lo and behold, I found a letter from NASA, from Dr. Wyler, the Administrator for, what is it, Space Sciences?
	The Associate Administrator for Space Science.
	He's basically one of Golden's Vice Presidents.
	And it was a three-page letter, and the most important section of the letter was this quote, NASA has responded to the requests of the Facets Group in exactly the fashion requested in the March 16th letter by targeting the Cydonia feature under question with the highest possible resolution and most optimized illumination as well as in stereo.
	And it goes on to state that it has posted these images on the internet.
	Wait, wait.
	Peter, are they saying that they have already done what you asked, or did they do it after you asked?
	Let me be clear on that.
	No.
	In three different places, they indicated, thus, and this is another quote, on the basis of the requests made in the March 16th letter, these actions were taken.
	So in other words, you asked, they said, we took the photos.
	Yeah.
	We have now complied with your, meaning that they did it after you asked.
	All right.
	Within a 21 day period.
	Holy smokes.
	It says in this case, NASA responded to the request by facets presented in the letter by Peter Gersten to Mr. Golden on March 16th by initiating a complex set of MGS spacecraft operations To ensure that the highest possible resolution images of the Cydonia face feature were acquired.
	Wonderful!
	Wonderful!
	So, how do they look?
	Well, as my grandma used to say, damn if I know!
	Because we have now spent three days, a lot of us, you know, in this facet umbrella group, all over the country, all over the world, via the internet, emailing each other, looking at every possible NASA website, Malin's websites, JPL websites, We can't find anything that corresponds to Ed Weiler's letter.
	Nothing.
	It does not exist on any NASA public website.
	How many people have you had on this?
	At least a dozen.
	So let's get this straight.
	These would be photographs, if we understand the response from NASA correctly, that were taken after the request.
	So it would have been post what date?
	The images were acquired on April 8, 2001 and posted on the Internet, April 19th, according to their letter.
	So, put on the Internet, April 19th.
	Yep.
	April 19th.
	Yeah.
	And the letter arrived May 11th.
	I'm sorry, it was sent May 11th.
	A little over a month ago, then.
	Yes.
	And there's a huge amount of time in there.
	In fact, at one point, Dr. Weiler says in his letter, in terms of timely release, Yes.
	That there is a, um, he says, uh, they, let's see, where are we here?
	I apologize for the delay.
	These data are released and available for interpretation by the FACET members.
	There were so, they were so recently required from the MGS that there may have appeared to have been a delay in their release, but this is not the case.
	When an image is acquired of Mars, it must be relayed to Earth by a specific process And when reconstructed on the ground before it can be posted on a public website.
	Right.
	This was accomplished at the end of last week, by April 19th, and the data released on that date.
	And there's nothing on any NASA website.
	I think that it's pretty clear from this letter that there is a division within NASA.
	A huge division.
	Remember how I talked about the war?
	Oh, I know.
	The internal war at NASA, you believe.
	Between JPL And NASA Headquarters.
	Now, let me make it very clear.
	I have said again and again and again that 99% of the NASA system is honest.
	Sure.
	You know, they're brilliant, they're dedicated, they work enormous hours without overtime, they have a vision, you know, the last best hope of mankind, which I firmly still believe.
	Yes.
	I think Ed Weiler has been stabbed in the back.
	I think somewhere between the, with the directives from Headquarters, take these pictures And the carrying out of the process by Dr. Malin and company at Malin Space Science System.
	Richard, did they have gone up on the web and then been taken down?
	Anything is possible because we were not notified because of the lengthy delay of communications of this until this letter of May 11th, which is almost a month after he says they were posted.
	Now, there are so many people, you know, on our behalf and others looking at Malin's site and NASA sites.
	Yes.
	I cannot believe that one of our guys wouldn't have said, hey look at that!
	Wow!
	A picture of the face with high detail, high resolution.
	In 3D stereo, and he even says in his letter here, he says in addition to 1.5 meter per pixel resolution, NASA released a stereo anaglyph of the feature.
	That allows the viewer with colored 3D glasses to view the feature in 3D!
	Oh my God!
	This is the first release of a 3D image of any feature on Mars acquired at this resolution!
	Holy smokes!
	But we can't find it!
	But uh... It's like, remember the story of the guy with the pony?
	No.
	The guy with the pony?
	Yeah, there's a story of the two brothers.
	And the one brother's always playing dirty tricks on the other brother.
	And one guy's a pessimist, the other guy's an optimist, and finds this great grin.
	He says, oh boy!
	There must be a pony in there somewhere!
	No, Richard, I haven't heard that story.
	Nor have I fully calculated how it applies, but I guess it does.
	Because they're claiming we've got a pony.
	The problem is, you can't find it for all the stuff in the way.
	I see.
	I think the NASA letter also indicates what the division is, and on the second page, Basically, Wireless states, at present, the scientific advisory committees that formerly advised NASA have not interpreted the Cydonia feature as evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence.
	Then, in the next sentence, NASA will continue to explore all possibilities for the origin of landscapes on Mars using the open process it has traditionally utilized, as well as the timely release.
	Now, so the scientists won't acknowledge that there's anything artificial on Mars, but I guess there are people within NASA that says, wait a second, it seems pretty obvious that there is.
	Isn't it something, they don't characterize the photographs in any way, so we can't even take any hints from that, can we?
	Well, no, wait a minute.
	On the bottom of the first page, he says, the newly released Cydonia observations reveal an intriguing Mesa-like feature Not unlike those found in the southwestern USA, with geological features that can be attributed to processes observed in multiple areas on Mars in which isolated topographic features, per-en, remnants, have been observed.
	Remnants?
	Which basically says they think it's a mesa.
	Okay.
	NASA encourages the development of multiple working hypothesis models for the formation of such features.
	Really?
	Yeah, exactly.
	That's news to me.
	Yeah, me too.
	And in this case, the new observations... That's quite a long way from tricks of lights and shadow.
	Isn't it?
	Yeah, well, that's a long ways.
	In this case, the new observations have been publicly released to permit further debate about controversial and enigmatic landforms on Mars.
	So there's a dichotomy here.
	Read the next sentence, because I think that's pretty significant.
	Well, I'll get to that in a second.
	But on the one hand, he's saying this is just a mesa.
	On the other hand, they're acknowledging it's an enigmatic landform.
	They can't have it both ways.
	Either you know what it is, or you don't know what it is.
	If you know what it is, it's not enigmatic.
	Well, this is a Mars mesa with a Mars past president's face carved in it.
	You got it.
	Next sentence.
	Here's Peter's sentence.
	Dr. Michael Malin The principal investigator of the MGS Mars Orbiter camera has provided his experienced interpretation of the new images.
	We can't find that either.
	We can't find that.
	But NASA welcomes additional opinion.
	Indeed, NASA promotes innovative analysis of such spacecraft data.
	By a competitive peer review, as well as by an open discussion in public meetings, and by all members of the interested public.
	All right, so then to most of us right now, it looks worse than the cat box picture.
	It's totally blank, because it isn't up there.
	There's nothing.
	So there should be a brand new picture, or pictures, high res.
	I want my pony!
	Up there on the web, but they're not there.
	Now, we can enlist the aid of the audience in trying to find it, though a thorough search has already been conducted, everybody.
	We will tell you about it anyway.
	Now, think about this.
	They're saying we've got a high-res picture of the face on Mars, which is open, they say, to interpretation.
	So where's the damn picture?
	Anyway, isn't that an amazing letter and an amazing response and an even more amazing missing photograph?
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Premier Networks.
	That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
	This is a video of the Coast to Coast AM event.
	Tomorrow never comes.
	I said tonight I'm living in the forest of a dream.
	I know the night is not as it would seem.
	I must believe in something so I'll make myself believe it.
	This night will never go Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah,
	woah, woah, woah On the night, it's my world
	City lights, painted girl In the day, nothing matters
	It's a nice time of matter I, I live among the creatures
	Now, we take you back to the past On Art Bell Somewhere in Time
	So, let's see if I have this straight.
	Some old, well-known characters, some of which I have on the phone, form an organization to write a letter to NASA to get what they might not otherwise get using their normal names.
	NASA answers, says we're doing it.
	We've done it.
	It's posted on the website at long last.
	The photo that everybody has been waiting for.
	The face on Mars.
	Hallelujah!
	It's on the website.
	Only...
	It's not there.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 21st, 2001.
	Music.
	Tonight at the top of the hour, Dr. Jeff Long will be here with a NDE sent rival or surpass in its terror, the rendition
	of its terror, that of Sarah's.
	We've just got a lot today.
	It's going to be a big program tonight, already is a big program.
	I guess let me start out by asking Richard, have you posted these letters, the ones sent to NASA and the answer on your website?
	Okay, we're assembling a package that will be up by tomorrow of our first letter, the one that Peter wrote on March 16th.
	Alright, so in other words, not until tomorrow.
	Not until tomorrow, Dr. Wilder's response.
	Peter drafted another response today after calling headquarters.
	So, Peter, do you want to tell them what happened when you did that?
	Well, let me just mention that the letters now are posted on the InfoSourceResearch.com website, which is the Facet's website.
	The Facet's name isn't available, so if anybody wants to check them out, it's InfoSourceResearch.com, www.
	And they'll be on Enterprise tomorrow.
	All right.
	The problem that we had over the weekend is that even though the letter looked authentic, we really didn't know that it was authentic.
	There have been some sophisticated hoaxes in ufology.
	You wrote a letter to them and this was ostensibly a response to that letter.
	What are the odds?
	It was circulated on the internet, so somebody could have gotten ahold of the stationery and described the response.
	I see.
	So I called NASA today and I asked for Dr. Weiler, and he's out of town for a couple of days, so I made some further inquiry as to whether in fact this letter was authentic, and they go into their computer, and they have a database of letters that they send, the addressees, and sure enough my name was there.
	But they also indicated that Dr. Weiler did not write the letter, because Dr. Weiler does not write letters.
	He has action officers write the letters.
	And that they looked up and they thought that this individual would be the action officer, and they connected me to him.
	Unfortunately, he was not, and I left a message on his voicemail that I would like to speak to him.
	And?
	And he never called me back.
	I'm hoping he will call me back tomorrow.
	But, you know, The case file on my request, on the facet's request, should be very interesting, what they did with the letter, where it went to, the responses to the letter, and that's obtainable under the Freedom of Information Act.
	But you know this to be an authentic letter?
	Oh yeah, it's definitely authentic.
	Authentic, okay, wow.
	Weiler may not have written it, but he signed it.
	Yeah, I gotcha, I gotcha, alright.
	It's authorized.
	Could it be that they've got this stuff parked on some URL that's not quite public or some derivation of the normal URL?
	Well, that's what originally Richard thought.
	That Malin reluctantly posted these images on the internet, but made it so difficult that nobody could find it.
	Except what he says on page two is, thus, on the basis of the request made in the March 16th letter addressed to Mr. Golden by Peter Gersten, the following items have been met or exceeded as follows.
	One, all images of the Cydonia area have been released on the internet via www.msss.com, that's Malin's website, and other public NASA sites via JPL.
	Two stereoscopic full-resolution 1.5 meter per pixel MOC images were acquired at optimized illumination conditions of the Cydonia features and have been released via the internet.
	My God, with that kind of resolution we could probably pick out cavities in the teeth.
	Well, we will definitely if we've got a 3D stereo anaglyph representation.
	Satisfy once and for all the left-right symmetry The various features, eyeballs, teeth in the mouth, all the questions we've wanted answered.
	The only problem is, we can't find it!
	What suggestions, other than obviously hoping for a further response from NASA, do you have to try and find these photos?
	What can the audience do, if anything?
	I think the reason we're getting a really important response here, and the problem of the image not being around, notwithstanding, which I think indicates the war, or as Peter says, diplomatically, the division between NASA and JPL, I think the only reason we're getting responses is because of the copying to Senator McCain.
	Senator McCain, from our White House sources, is the biggest dark shadow looming over the Bush administration that they could ever imagine.
	John McCain is George Bush's worst nightmare.
	And anytime you raise John's name, things suddenly happen because they do not want McCain to have another issue.
	Campaign finance reform is moving, albeit slowly, but it is moving at a rate that nobody in Washington imagined would ever happen after he, quote, lost his presidential bid.
	So they are desperate to keep him from having an issue.
	So one can imagine, kind of like the conversation you were imagining between the people of the National Geographic when Linda was being held on the line, you can imagine the conversations At headquarters, when this letter comes in with copies to McCain, and they look down and they see that Peter's very carefully sent a copy over to the Senator, who presides over the Commerce Committee and could call hearings tomorrow on this issue.
	And it's clear in this letter, all three pages, over and over again, the statements are being made for the record that NASA is withholding nothing.
	That they've been fully, you know, upfront that everything has been released, nothing delayed, etc., etc.
	That is building a legal case In case there are hearings.
	So where are our pictures?
	That's what we have asked.
	So Peter sent a letter today.
	Did you send it electronically or a surface mail?
	Overnight mail.
	Overnight mail.
	And tomorrow we hope that he will get a call back from Ed Weiler's agent of action to clarify which URL this has been hidden on.
	Because it's obviously not public.
	It's hidden somewhere.
	If Malin carried out the orders.
	Now, from 98 forward, Mark, we have tracked the problem between NASA and JPL and Mike Malin, right?
	Well, let me ask this of both of you.
	What possible motivation do you think they could have for answering your letter the way they did, indicating the pictures exist and they're up there, and then not having them up there?
	Why?
	Well, let me just take a minute.
	I think NASA is sending us a message that you have to read between the lines.
	I don't necessarily believe That this image was taken pursuant to my letter.
	I think there is an image, and there was evidence that they always had an image of the entire face.
	I don't know if it was in 3D or not, but a high-resolution image.
	And NASA has always publicly stated that it does not withhold any information pertaining to Cydonia.
	It is fully and openly distributed by means of public websites, all images.
	Except... So now they have a problem.
	They have an image that they haven't released yet.
	And if they're caught withholding this image, then their credibility comes into issue, as well as what else are they withholding.
	So I think they're trying to find a way to release this image.
	I don't necessarily think it's been released yet, but I think they're trying to... There are some people that do not want to release it, and I think there are people that want to release it, and they think by doing it this way, by sending this letter saying that this was imaged as a result of my letter, that they can then sneak
	it out maybe in a day or two once we make further inquiry.
	But I mean words have meaning here.
	If they said that they imaged as a result of your letter, then that has meaning.
	If it's a lie, then that has meaning too.
	And if they say they posted it on April 19th and here it is a month later, and there's
	no evidence of it.
	Look, they're not dummies.
	They know how controversial this photograph is.
	They know damn well how controversial it is.
	So, I wonder, maybe they're just screwing with you.
	I think they have the image and they're just trying to find a way to release it if they haven't released it already.
	Maybe they know who was really behind this acronym.
	Requesting all this and they're just screwing with you.
	It only makes NASA look bad because their whole thesis of the letter here is that their credibility is based on their not withholding and being forthcoming.
	I agree.
	We can prove in front of a national audience, if they claim there's been a stunning image, 3D of the whole thing up there for a month, and nobody has found it, it makes them look like liars.
	I don't believe that Ed Weiler is lying.
	I think that the orders were given, get it all out there.
	I do tend to agree that the picture may already have been taken.
	In fact, Lance Fleming, who is one of the other prestigious members of this informal group, did a calculation based on the April 8th image that was released.
	Remember the new image that was taken?
	Yes.
	Of the face?
	Yes.
	And he calculated that in fact it's only half the width that it really should be, indicating Malin got the whole thing.
	But sliced it in half so we'd only get the same western half that we'd all be seeing, so we couldn't confirm the rest of the features.
	These letters are really important.
	Since, Peter, give me that URL again, please.
	It's www.infosourceresearch, I-N-F-O-S-O-U-R-C-E, research, R-E-S-E-A-R-C-H dot com, infosourceresearch.
	And both letters are up there?
	Yeah, I'll have a link, I'll have my website.
	I think all three letters, right Peter?
	Yeah, everything should be up there.
	Now, there's another interesting aspect of this, and the way we interpreted this letter originally is that it was an olive branch.
	It was basically a kind of, okay guys, let's bury the hatchet, let's start over and do this the way we should have done it 20 years ago.
	Listen to this.
	Point number three that Weiler makes.
	NASA awaits a specific list of requests for targeting, quote, the five additional areas of Mars from a list submitted by Facets, but no such list has as yet been received.
	NASA welcomes a variety of opinions about the origin of enigmatic features on Mars, as observed by the instruments aboard the Mars Global Surveyor.
	NASA relies upon the peer-review process They'll go do it.
	peer review to fund analyses of the data it acquires and awaits newly published or proposals
	to undertake such interpretations of the Cydonia phase feature.
	Now what that is saying, translation folks, is if FACET submits a scientific proposal
	for an analysis of artificial structures on Mars, they will go do it.
	I mean this is an amazing letter, barring the fact that we can't find the central feature
	Yes, you're right, it's amazing.
	Well, alright, again I ask Richard, are you requesting any help from the audience, and if so, what?
	Well, the first thing you want to do is have people, remember we got John McCain's fax number up there.
	Right.
	They should drop a line to John and basically say, where's this image?
	NASA claims they have now done what we've all been asking.
	Where is it?
	Can you make a few phone calls over to NASA and kind of help us out here?
	That will be extremely efficacious.
	And for those that have email and computers, the McCain numbers are up on the Enterprise site, and I presume they're linked through your site?
	They are.
	That would be the first thing.
	The second thing is they ask us for other sites to look at, and we're having a lively discussion among ourselves as to what other five sites we should ask for them to go look at.
	Because there's a whole bunch of new data now that's come from Mars Global Surveyor, including some pretty astonishing things.
	Yes.
	I mean, for one, I would like a real Ultra close-up of the glass tubes, the glass tunnels.
	Oh, so would I. Would you love to see those?
	I mean, those were not the highest resolution that camera can give us.
	There are other features that we found, like the flying saucer I found up in the Valles Marineris Canyon.
	I've seen it, yes.
	Which is pretty astonishing.
	It is, yes.
	So we're in the next 10 days or 15 days or whatever, we're going to go through a process of distilling the best five sites.
	Alright, I think the answer to this then is people should, at their leisure, Read these letters, your letter to NASA, their response, your second letter, I guess that's the way it goes.
	So, we'll get the link up for you to do that, folks, and if you feel motivated by this, and you should, then I guess you could go ahead and get a hold of Senator McCain.
	Now let me make a program announcement here.
	A program announcement?
	The PAX TV special, the Mars special.
	Oh yes, that's going to be airing.
	On PAX Network, on satellite and cable.
	Yes.
	On Sunday, the 27th of May.
	Okay.
	Again.
	Alright.
	And for those that miss it or don't have cable or whatever, we have it available at an 800 number now in video form.
	And if you're just joining this controversy, as you can see, amazing things are happening, and this would give you a background for how we've gotten to where we are.
	So that number, if you want to order the video, the PAX special, which got some pretty good reviews, is 800 3-5-0-4-6-3-9.
	All right.
	Let's see, there's... Oh, Richard, you have not yet commented on this incredible, incredible story that we're following off the coast of Cuba with this high-resolution sonar imaging said to be of Archaeological, architectural actually, objects, roads, tunnels, at 2,200 feet below the water off the coast, the western coast somewhere of Cuba, they don't specify.
	But I mean, it's an incredible story, incredible story!
	Well, as you know, we've all been looking at this and holding our breath, and I've got to take my hat off to Linda.
	Linda has done an extraordinary Investigator reporter's job of nailing down the National Geographic and confirming that the oceanographer Paulino Zielinski is real.
	Yes.
	That there is, that she's well known to the Geographic.
	There is a pending deal between the Cuban government and this oceanographic firm, ADC, and the Geographic to go and look at this stuff this summer.
	That's real.
	And then things get really bizarre because I've been talking to one of our geologists, Ron Nix, About the geology of a city sitting on a plateau in the midst of white sands, half a mile down.
	And he tells me this is impossible by any conventional geology.
	Of course, yes.
	Because the ocean rise and fall, as Linda correctly pointed out on Friday, from the ice age is about 300 feet.
	So there's no way that the ocean could have risen or fallen by 2,000 feet to give us, in the so-called classic period, You know, Mayan-type temples and roads and all that.
	Right.
	So, the last time the ocean was that low, Nick tells me, was, get this, hold on to your hats, folks, 65 million years ago, by conventional geological dating.
	That's close to the dinos, right?
	That's dinosaur time, alright?
	So, the only other thing that the fallback position is, if we're looking at a catastrophic model, if we're looking at pole shifts, we're looking at Rand Flemming, Charles Hapgood, Einstein, etc.
	If there had been a major event in the last few thousand years, that plateau could have sunk en masse through some geology that most geophysics is not currently familiar with to that depth, but only if it was a geophysics we're not familiar with.
	This is looking more and more like the infamous A-word.
	Atlantis.
	Atlantis.
	And today, as a separate string to Linda's efforts in Washington, we have opened up a front, courtesy of Robin, who had a brilliant idea and followed through on it, and it looks like it's going to pay off.
	And in the next few days, Art, we'll be able to report to you, possibly, new input from a major underwater exploration outfit that is independent of the Cuban government, The National Geographic, the U.S.
	Government, etc., and they may weigh in with their own ideas and opinions, and maybe data, on this remarkable find.
	It is.
	It's remarkable.
	Peter Gerson... And the coincidence of all this happening with the Mars story... Yes.
	...is... I know.
	...cannot be lost on everybody.
	It's the workload.
	Peter Gerson, what are you doing these days?
	You're a defense attorney now.
	Everybody asks, what's happened to cause?
	The Cause website is temporarily offline.
	We're switching the Alien Zoo without a business.
	And they were the hosts, so we're finding another server.
	We found one, but because of some administrative problems, we're having a difficult time transferring.
	But you're saying Cause will, like the Phoenix, rise again?
	Of course.
	Very, very soon.
	Of course.
	All right, gentlemen.
	Well, good one.
	There's only one way to wind this up.
	Yes?
	Stay tuned.
	Stay tuned is right.
	Gentlemen, good night.
	Good night, Art.
	All right, there you have it.
	So, to sum up, they wrote this cover letter, this organization they put together, asking for high-res photos of the face on Mars.
	NASA writes back and says, good idea, we've done it, and we put them up on the website.
	Well, guess what, folks?
	The photos don't seem to be there.
	The ones we've been waiting for all this time.
	Anyway, we're going to break here at the top of the hour.
	And then, boy, do I have something for you.
	Dr. Jeff Long has something for you.
	We both do.
	Coming up next.
	As Richard said, don't touch that dial.
	The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
	More, somewhere in time, coming up.
	Hey, way.
	Yeah.
	If a cause was right, I'd leave to find an answer on the road.
	I used to be a heartbeat for someone.
	But the times have changed.
	The less I say, the more my work gets done Cause I'm living free, it's still a deadly freedom
	From the day that I was born I made my life Build it up, you feel it, took me knee high to a man
	Give me a piece of mind my daddy never had Build it up, got me a free, sound mind
	Premier Networks presents Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM, from May 21, 2001.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Or afternoon, or evening, or whatever.
	If you want to see the letters, the NASA letters, we're going to call them for now, alright?
	Just go to my website, artbell.com.
	Tonight's guest info, and then look down under the name Richard Hoagland, Peter Gersten, and you will go to the website that has these letters, these amazing letters.
	In a moment, coming up, is Dr. Jeffrey Long, and he is, as a matter of fact, practicing the medical specialty of radiation oncology.
	You know what that is, I suppose.
	If not, we'll discuss what it is.
	But that's not really why he's here.
	Or maybe it is, in a way.
	Dr. Jeffrey Long is the one who brought us, in part, brought us Sarah.
	Remember Sarah's NDE?
	I know you do, because I have recently replayed it.
	One of the most harrowing, wild descriptions of a trip to another place in death.
	That has ever been done on the air as far as I know.
	Now, you should prepare yourself tonight because what we've got coming up is yet another one.
	Dr. Long has brought us one that he suggests I warn you about, and so I certainly will.
	The material you're going to hear tonight could be very disturbing to some children, to some adults as well, It, uh, if you remember the interview of Sarah, it goes, I am told, even beyond that in some ways.
	I'll let Dr. Long characterize it for you here in a moment.
	At any rate, that's what you're facing tonight.
	Oh, by the way, even Sarah may be out there.
	She's somewhere in Pennsylvania and trying to get through to the show.
	That's never going to happen, Sarah.
	You'll never, ever make it through.
	What you can do, Sarah, is send me email at All that said, in a moment, Dr. Jeff Long.
	just market from sarah giving uh... me your phone number there in pennsylvania and
	i will call you but you would never be able to make it in the odds of that
	uh... are slimmer than having the said only a pictures by tomorrow morning
	so you should send me some emails are if you're really out there are bill at
	mine spring dot com does market sarah
	all that said in a moment doctor jeff long stay right there
	you're listening to our bills somewhere in time Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM, from May 21st, 2001.
	21st 2001.
	Now comes Dr. Jeffrey Long, actively practicing in the medical specialty of
	radiation oncology, the use of radiation to treat cancer in Tacoma Washington.
	I serve, he serves on the board of directors and is second vice president of IANDS.
	That's the International Association for Near-Death Studies.
	He served as chairman of that organization.
	His major NDE research effort has been through his website, Devoted Near Death Experiences, and we've got a link to that right now, NDERF.org.
	We've got a link up tonight.
	This website has received hundreds of original contribution NDE accounts, and has more NDE accounts posted than any other website in the world.
	That is That's quite something to consider.
	This is THE website, then, for near-death experiences, and one has to wonder how a doctor who works in such a hard area of medical practice, radiation oncology, would get Or maybe it's not such a long reach at all, because you're not successful in all cases, and a lot of your patients do approach death's door, I suppose, Doctor.
	Is that true?
	Yeah, unfortunately Art, that's absolutely true.
	Even though medical advances really do a lot for what we can do for cancer patients now.
	We're curing far more than we ever did even a few years ago.
	Sure.
	But an awful lot of people still don't make it.
	Most of us doctors in oncology have an interest in life after death issues because that's something we deal with and our patients deal with on a daily basis.
	Is that in fact then how, you know, you became interested in NDEs?
	It's a long way from the hardware part of radiation oncology.
	That's helped accelerate my interest in near-death experience.
	Actually the very first time I got interested in near-death experience was I was going through some medical literature looking up a totally unrelated medical article And quite serendipitously, I saw an article that had a provocative title about near-death experience.
	This was about, oh, 14 years ago.
	I'd never heard about near-death experience, and the title intrigued me, and I read it.
	And I said, my gosh, there's thousands of people having these remarkable experiences.
	And immediately was struck with the fact that there really should be more research in this area, and there really wasn't.
	Then, several years later, I talked to the wife of a friend we were just meeting socially, And heard an absolutely astounding near-death experience that she had.
	Involved a code on an operating room.
	She had an out-of-body experience.
	Left her body.
	Saw them trying desperately to resuscitate her right on the operating room table.
	Right.
	Floated out through the walls of the operating room and actually drifted back to the nursing room section that she had been an inpatient at.
	Actually, very carefully heard all the conversations of the nurses while she was technically dead.
	I had a very transcendent experience, beautiful experience, light, deceased relatives, a lot of the elements that are common with near-death experience ultimately was revived and was able to tell the nurses in great detail what they were saying right while she was clinically dead.
	That made a big impression on me.
	I bet it did on the nurses, too.
	It really did.
	This was way before Raymond Moody's landmark book in 1975 where people really understood that near-death experiences existed.
	Before that time, and even up to the current day, there's still a lot of disbelief and a lot of people that really have a hard time accepting that this really does happen, and it's fairly common.
	The one that we did with Sarah was pretty universally acclaimed to be one of the most dramatic NDEs ever related on the air, and you told me that the one we have tonight is, in its own way, perhaps more frightening than that which occurred to Sarah?
	I think so, Art.
	Now that I've had a chance, as you mentioned earlier, to have the generous contribution of others contributing hundreds of near-death experiences, over that time I've been able to sort of see the pattern of it.
	Certainly it's there, but there are certainly periodically some hellish or very frightening near-death experiences that come along.
	The one that we have tonight, the gentleman's name is Cougar.
	That's actually his legal middle name.
	It's absolutely astounding.
	I have never heard anything quite like it.
	You and your listeners are in for a big treat.
	Well, if it's a treat to go to hell, in a way it is, because it all adds up as we consider all of this information that Doctor, how many, by percentage, how many patients do you think, if we knew the real truth, have experienced hellish NDEs as opposed to, you know, the white light and everything wonderful and relatives and the usual?
	How many do you suppose, if we knew the whole truth, might have experienced the other?
	Okay, you know, they're very, very unusual, but not entirely rare.
	A 1993 Gallup poll estimated there was as many as 12 to 15 million Americans who personally experienced a near-death experience.
	So out of that, a fairly large number of people that have had an NDE, near-death experience, probably about 15% of them are frightening.
	And of those that are frightening, probably about 20, 30, 40% involve hellish imagery.
	That being imagery that depicts either classic depictions of hell, Or other sort of very terrifying beings, imagery, etc.
	You know, one might imagine, if you're thinking about classic heaven and hell, and the behavior of human beings, that if we've got a really compassionate God, which I hope we do, that those numbers might be about right.
	At least we hope for that.
	Well, you know, here's the surprising thing, Art, and some good news also.
	That is that people that have a frightening near-death experience, actually after they've had a time to process it, and usually it takes many years, they actually end up growing enormously as individuals.
	I'm sure they do.
	They actually grow closer to God.
	They actually are grown spiritually.
	Do they?
	And so then they modify their behavior, right?
	Absolutely, I think.
	One thing I would emphasize is that The people that have frightening near-death experiences, to the very best that I and other researchers can discern, are every bit as upright moral people as the people that have pleasant near-death experiences.
	Well, you see, that is... there's the big puzzle, isn't it?
	After all, only society's lesser parts should be having these hellish near-death experiences, you would think.
	Wouldn't you?
	I mean, if the classic heaven-hell Is true.
	Our understanding of it is true, then it ought to be the people who have been bad, bad, bad, one way or the other, who have the bad experiences.
	But that's not necessarily true.
	How can we account for that?
	And that's something that we're still struggling to understand as investigators and near-death experience.
	There's no question that there doesn't seem to be any distinguishing characteristics.
	I think one of the major answers for that is that Our near-death experiences are not punishment.
	As best we can tell, all experiences are provided by, or at least guided by, a loving God.
	There's potential for enormous growth.
	In fact, people that have frightening near-death experiences will very often, years later, say that it was their life's greatest gift.
	What that gift has given to them is the ability to confront their greatest fears, to look right down the barrel of that which most of us would flee in horror from or not even want to consider.
	And as a consequence of facing that fear, of growing from it, of realizing that it's not a threat to them, that they've transcended that frightening experience, they're much braver people, they're less frightened, and for lacking that fear, I think they're better able to go out and live their life courageously.
	Huh.
	And you can certainly, please feel free to ask Cougar.
	Cougar is an excellent example.
	Well, I will, but I still...
	Are there things, for example, when you do deeper research about these people that you... I mean, take Sarah, for example.
	Yes.
	Sarah was a church volunteer on her way home from church volunteering.
	Yes, she was riding her bicycle.
	Smack!
	Bam!
	And so, Sarah should have gone straight to heaven without pass and go, right?
	Absolutely.
	From our terrestrial point of view.
	No question about that.
	Way that she would judge a person.
	Church-going, very serious, volunteer, going the extra mile, very dedicated, very sincere in her spiritual search, and boom!
	She had at least a component of her experience.
	Okay, but this destroys my understanding of heaven and hell.
	That's the problem with all of this, and it's a non-trivial problem.
	And I understand you are, and it's probably a question on a lot of listeners' minds, What I can say is, I'm here not to tell you what conclusions you or anybody else listening can draw.
	Just give us the research.
	I'm going to give you the research, and I'm going to tell you just absolutely the facts as I know them.
	I have some ideas on this, but this is such a deep question.
	Well, if you really do have some ideas, let's hear them.
	Okay.
	Well, again, like I said, I think when you follow up with these folks that have had these frightening experiences many, many years later, They don't really look at it as being a punishment.
	I mean, it's not something where they ultimately felt that they were damned in any way.
	They don't feel that they were judged.
	It's just something that they went through.
	It's just one very difficult part of the trail of this experience we all go through called life.
	They just happen to take an especially challenging part of this.
	In fact, you could almost take a look at the flip side and say, maybe these people that have these horrific, frightening experiences at some level, Have some kind of courage that allows them to face experiences that those of the rest of us wouldn't be willing or able to face.
	So that's the flip side of it.
	What they have to face and go through to come to grips with an experience like that is tough.
	It takes work.
	It takes time.
	It takes a tremendous amount of courage.
	But at the end of all that, I think they come through with some understanding that even most near-death experiencers don't.
	Well, I in no way mean this to denigrate anybody who's had the courage to come forward with a hellish experience.
	But is it also possible, doctor, that there are things about their lives that have been unsaid, that aren't part of the research, that might connect all the dots, that would make us understand?
	Is that one possibility?
	Yes, and you make a very good point there.
	There's certainly, when you ask a lot of questions to people that have had frightening near-death experiences, For some of them, and it's less than half, you can find some correlates with their experience with some repressed guilt or some repressed angers that these individuals had.
	And this hellish experience they go through is, even by their own confession often at times, many years later, it's the only way that they could have confronted this.
	It's the only way they could have gotten over those issues that were preventing them from being loving, completely happy individuals.
	And this seems to be a part of a guidance of some loving God.
	However rough it seems, but ultimately they end up being far more loving, far happier,
	and very grateful for the experience.
	How did you hook up with the man we will call Cougar?
	Well, when I came up here in Tacoma here nearly a year and a half ago,
	I was very, very happy to find out that one of the leading friends of IONS groups,
	We talked about INs earlier, the International Association for Near Death Studies.
	Right.
	They have a large number of support groups, and I would emphasize that if anybody's had a near-death experience, or especially a frightening near-death experience, please look up Friends of Ions group in your area.
	They are tremendous support.
	Now that's interesting.
	You said particularly a frightening one.
	Are those of particular interest to you, Doctor?
	Well, I think they're variants.
	They're unusual.
	By the time you've encountered many hundreds of near-death experiences, I think you tend to hone in on some of the more unusual ones because they are challenging and they raise the very questions, the very good questions that you've brought up, Art.
	And I think they cause all of us to think and challenge us more to some greater understanding.
	They're tough for us researchers.
	And certainly people that have had these experiences Probably need even more support than people that have had very pleasant near-death experiences.
	Those are easy to talk about.
	People listen and go, ooh, and aww.
	But when you've had a frightening near-death experience, I mean, think of it.
	You try to tell anybody, what do they think?
	They think, oh, what's this person done?
	That they should be damned in such a way.
	No, that's right.
	Yes, of course.
	That's tough.
	Yes.
	But in these Friends of Alliance groups, in general, they've encountered all types of experiences, and they know that this is part of the spectrum of near-death experience.
	And it was there I met Cougar and heard of his absolutely remarkable account.
	This is where I met Cougar, who was in one of the largest Friends of I Am's groups in
	the nation, headed by Kimberly Clark Sharp, up in Seattle.
	She's been doing this for about 18-odd years.
	Very large groups of absolutely phenomenal people meet there once a month.
	It was there I met Cougar and heard of his absolutely remarkable account.
	Did he go through it for you then?
	What he did is he had it all written out.
	He initially shared it with me in written form and even when I read it I considered
	it to be absolutely astounding.
	But shoot, by the time you've encountered a few hundred near-death experiences and reviewed those accounts, even the remarkable ones you do encounter periodically.
	But what really caught my attention was late last year when Cougar just totally serendipitously found a book sitting in his house that he had never read before read a legend from back in the ancient Sumerian culture back actually written about several millennia BC and absolutely astonishingly there were a tremendous number of parallels of his frightening experience with this ancient legend of millennia ago
	That's unusual.
	And it reminds me of Sarah, and how her experience remarkably parallels the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
	And that was really not discovered until later, was it?
	Everybody after Sarah's experience said, oh my God, look at the parallels to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, right?
	Yeah, you'll remember that dramatic time that we shared her experience on your show.
	Not once did any of us have a clue that this was a very I had very similar imagery to the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
	I had no clue.
	Sarah had no clue.
	None of us did.
	But only after the show did we start getting emails.
	And even though I got quite a few emails, I said, there's just no way.
	I mean, this is too amazing.
	And only after I actually started doing the research into the Tibetan Book of the Dead myself did I say, hey, this really happened.
	Why?
	I don't know.
	And then the same things happened again here with Cougar.
	Just absolutely more questions raised than answers here are.
	Alright, well that's what's coming up.
	So stay right where you are, everybody.
	My guest is Dr. Jeffrey Long.
	He's a radiation oncologist.
	They treat cancer victims, people trying to recover from cancer.
	But here he's talking about near-death experiences.
	And the one coming up is It's not one of those easy ones, so, you know, you might want to get the kids out of the room.
	We'll digest it next.
	This is Premier Networks.
	That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
	You shout all these goodbyes, you can't even play them easy.
	Forget about the past and all your sorrows.
	The future won't last, it will soon be over tomorrow.
	I don't ask for much, I only want trust and you know it don't come easy.
	And this love of mine keeps growing all the time and you know it just ain't easy.
	Open up your heart, let's start.
	I don't ask for explanations, you'll just tell you that you're game.
	In the end, right?
	of the cat she doesn't give you time for questions
	as she locks up your love in hers and you follow to your sense of which direction
	Complete participants.
	you By the blue top walls, near the market stalls, there's a hidden door she leads you to.
	These days, she says, I feel my life just like a river running through the air as a cat
	I feel my life just like a river running through the air as a cat
	Thanks for watching!
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM, from May 21st, 2001.
	Good morning, or evening, or afternoon.
	What you're about to hear is going to be frightening.
	It's going to be a rendition by a man named Cougar.
	Maybe we'll give his whole name here, that's up to him.
	Of a man who went to hell, who had a near-death experience.
	Actually, he's had a total of three, but a final real whopper Which involved hell, or a hellish experience.
	So I'm relaxing myself for that.
	You should too.
	Some of this is rather difficult to listen to, and I know that it will bother some people, so please be advised.
	Having said that, it's coming up.
	Sound of thunder.
	Now, we take you back to the past on Arkbell Somewhere in Time.
	Alright, here we go.
	Cougar is a copier service technician and 50 years old.
	He experienced three NDEs in his life.
	Remarkably, they were 13 years apart, 87, 94, and 61 as a child.
	The first two were pleasant.
	The final, 1987 NDE, was remarkable for its graphic, hellish content.
	Dr. Long writes, I think his experience is a chilling look at another dimension of hell, which closely parallels an earlier Sumerian writing.
	It's your call, Art.
	Dr. Long writes, you might want to consider advising listener discretion.
	This graphic depiction of hell may be frightening to many, especially those who are squeamish.
	I'll be honest, even as a seasoned NDE investigator, I got goosebumps hearing this account.
	And I don't scare easily.
	Dr. Long, those were your words, right?
	That is correct.
	All right.
	Welcome to the program, Cougar.
	Thank you.
	Glad to be here.
	Happy to have you.
	You're 50 now, right?
	Yes.
	Usually, I guess, the best thing to do is to just... You had two other... You had two initial NDEs.
	Most people don't have one cougar, much less three.
	Right.
	What brought these on?
	Tell us what you will of the first two, first.
	Okay, like you say, it happened within 13 years.
	It seems to cycle in 13 years.
	periods least for this and the other interesting part was when we discovered the
	Anonymous that was also 13 years from the 1918 1987 event Which was the hellish experience right what what?
	Nde's mean exactly that they're near-death. What what put you in a position where you had these?
	Well 1961 when I was 11 years old I went out to a swing set that I wasn't used to and got
	into it. It was a Long rope swing so it was something I can swing way out on
	When I did, I got a little too enthusiastic and swung out to where the rope got loose at the top.
	I went too high, came out through the swing in the back side of it, straight into the ground and hit a log with my back and it knocked the breath out of me and shocked my diaphragm.
	I couldn't do anything but breathe it out.
	And from what I understand it's called respiratory arrest and I just had to accept that I was dying and being 11 years old I guess that's quite a shock of not really living too long and having to go through that and saw a little bit of the past in the earth and the surroundings there.
	Saw a little of the past of the earth?
	Well the first contact actually was seeing the green in the trees get greener and the blue of the skies get bluer and just saying goodbye to it all and when I was doing that I had flashes into the past where I was seeing some events taking place.
	Not in your life necessarily?
	Not in my lifetime.
	And from that point I went up into the sky, and this is what I call surface experience, because I went out a little bit.
	I saw a lot more than I would have at that age.
	But I didn't have what I call a deeper experience, which happened in the other two.
	Alright, let's go ahead and go to 1987 and tell me what happened to you.
	Okay, in 1987 I had gone to visit a medicine man of the Cherokee Nation and spent some time with him around on his
	land in his pot house.
	and...
	I had gone through some initiations with him on stuffed medicine animals in exchange for doing work for him.
	I was cutting some steps into a dirt path that led to his pothouse.
	It was like 200 feet from the road.
	In the steep areas where I cut through and cleared better steps for him since he was an older man at the time.
	He was an 84-year-old medicine man.
	Why were you seeking, offhand, just as a matter of interest, why were you seeking the counsel or the help of a Native American medicine man anyway?
	Well, a lot of people went there.
	He was pretty well known in the area.
	They had gone for healings and advice and marital problems and stuff like that.
	I had come in to visit him probably the year before that through a mutual friend who said, you've got to meet this guy.
	He's got energy like yours, you'll like each other.
	It turned out we had a recognition bond going on and we kind of understood a lot of the same things.
	I had come from another background of Native American dance and enjoyed that kind of ceremony.
	By the way, Cougar, do you want to give your full name or not?
	It's up to you.
	Well, I can say this is Robert Cougar.
	Last name's kind of long, and people tend not to either remember it or mispronounce it, so... Okay.
	All right.
	We'll omit it if you wish.
	At any rate, you went to this medicine man.
	You befriended this medicine man, I guess.
	Older fella, 87, you said?
	Yes.
	87 years old in 1987.
	All right.
	And you were helping him.
	Did you have issues that, other than, you know, what did you say, issues of mutual interest?
	In other words, did you have personal issues that you wanted to resolve with this man?
	No, I did not.
	Okay.
	So just a friendship?
	Yes.
	Okay, so what happened?
	Well, there was a period of time there where I was feeling kind of odd, and I didn't understand what it was.
	It went on for a couple of days, and one day it just felt bad.
	I felt bad.
	I didn't know what it was.
	It felt like there was something there I didn't understand.
	And I started getting feverish, and that was at the point when I went up to him and asked him if he had any ideas what was going on.
	He was looking at me and I was spiritualized and thought I was getting prepared for a spiritual initiation, which I guess I did.
	I didn't know what I was walking into.
	So what he wanted me to do was go out to a medicine circle and deal with it out there.
	He knew it was going to be a big ordeal and he didn't say much else other than, This wasn't good for me, but he said that you're probably going to a place where very few people come back and those that do have gone crazy.
	He had a pretty interesting look in his eyes and he wouldn't say much more other than that.
	He saw a lot of things and a lot of people.
	So I guess he was tapping into this with me.
	Essentially what I was feeling was very ill, very feverish, and I had an experience in childhood where I went through a fever stage as well.
	My temperature was registered about 105, still with my parents as a child.
	Fever had gone on so long they were getting ready to take me to the hospital and just wanted to see if I would go down.
	They thought it was critical, but to me I wasn't near death and I did have some hallucinations Over that.
	And so I can kind of take that experience and compare it with the one I had in 1987, which was totally different.
	105 degrees will give either a child or an adult hallucinations.
	No question about it.
	Yes.
	And so what happened here in 87 was not really the hallucination sort.
	It was a deeper level intimate contact with stuff, which I'll be getting into here in a second.
	When I went out to the medicine circle by myself, he stayed back in the pothouse.
	I went out and laid down and this fever was on me.
	It was very unusual.
	I had never felt anything like this before.
	It was like poison ivy inside me and outside me.
	It was burning really bad.
	I checked the temperature later.
	After this event to see what was going on and I heard it was pretty consistent.
	It was probably about 57 degrees throughout that evening and into the morning and into
	the next day.
	So I realized it wasn't the outside temperature having any influence over this.
	57 was pretty comfortable for me.
	I know it's cold for a lot of people but that's a pretty good living temperature for me.
	I like it cool but not that cool.
	So you were outside.
	You went to this medicine circle he wanted you to go to?
	Yes, they had constructed one for him that was a fairly large one with beautiful stones around it and wanted me to do ceremony in there for this thing that was going to come on to me.
	I was reaching a point in the middle of the night where I was just blacking out.
	I was going out of consciousness in the end.
	On top of feeling hot there were times I got chills so I was going from one extreme to the other and it was just really wracking my body and making me feel weak, uncomfortable to say the least.
	I went from total clarity to total oblivion.
	At one point, to throw out a number, it was like 7 a.m.
	I think it was, when one time I came straight out into consciousness.
	And things were not right.
	I wasn't quite there anymore.
	I know I was there somewhere in the circle, but... What sort of Native American was he?
	Can you tell us what tribe?
	Yes, he was a Cherokee Nation.
	Cherokee Nation.
	And a medicine man.
	Yeah, he was.
	Something that has to be asked before we even really get underway.
	Can you be sure he didn't slip you something?
	In other words, he was saying you were going to have this experience.
	He knew it was going to come on to you, right?
	He knew that evening.
	He didn't have any suspicion at all until I brought it to his attention that I just wasn't feeling good.
	He got very concerned and he threw his energy into me and tried to find out, like a doctor, what was going on with me, being a medicine man.
	Yeah, but you don't think there's any possibility he slipped you any sort of drug?
	I don't think so.
	I mean, I was spending a couple hours a day with him, but I was also watching a lot of people go in and out and listening to their stories and what he was doing to work with them.
	Alright, so you're getting very ill and he has you go outside?
	Yes.
	To explain that, that's a good question because what he was thinking, and I don't really totally agree with this but I respect it at the time, he remembered that someone, they bring him gifts all the time, and someone had an object there that was probably cursed because some objects in different parts of the world are really not permitted to be taken from those areas and somebody had actually brought one back to the states.
	And he had neglected to do any work with that object.
	And he thought it might be coming from that object that was doing this to me.
	So he wanted me to leave the pothouse.
	He lived in a little pothouse out there in the wilderness.
	When you say pothouse, some people are going to say you mean he was growing pot?
	No.
	P-O-D.
	Pothouse.
	Like a seed.
	Right.
	Like a roundhouse.
	Right.
	I understand.
	Oh, a pothouse.
	It sounded like you were saying pot.
	One room house.
	Pothouse.
	I've got you.
	Just to make that clear.
	So what he was essentially looking at was keeping, if it was an evil force, he wanted to keep it trapped in the pothouse.
	He had me go out and he sealed my pathway from this thing to not follow me as I went out.
	And that was the work he was doing from that level.
	So he stayed away.
	And this was interesting with the Inanna legend also, the myth that's from the 18th century BC is that when Ananah was going to hell, she had a
	discussion with her minister along the same lines that I had with my medicine man.
	We did the same things.
	We had gone out away from the minister where they stayed back and did prayer for us and
	beat a drum even.
	So even those two compared.
	So you went to this circle that had been prepared and what happened?
	Well like I say about 7 o'clock in the morning from what I can remember is when I came to
	and when I came out, I looked around through the trees and could see, to my perception
	there were the forces of nature behind the trees.
	I was beginning to see.
	Coming over that was what I It could feel like a battle between good and evil.
	Somehow evil allowed the rains for that day to come to me.
	When that occurred I saw an abyss, or went into an abyss, which was completely dark.
	So you found yourself in a completely dark place.
	I called it an abyss because it seemed to be kind of like a pit that I was in.
	I was standing on a cold metal bridge that was about two feet wide.
	When I looked in both directions, I could see as far as them extending out maybe a hundred yards in either direction.
	So you could see something?
	Yes, it was like with spiritual eyes.
	In the darkness, much as in a heavenly experience when you can still see with the brilliant light that is up there, you see things and you see them in a different sense than you do in the physical world.
	So even though it was probably totally dark, I was able to see and sense things around me.
	So the combination of these heightened senses actually gives you at least the same vision, if not better than what you would have in the physical world.
	Alright, Doctor, most NDEs involve a cessation of vital signs to some degree or another.
	Was that not the case here?
	Cougar knows what it's like to die.
	He's had, this was his third near-death experience, and this had the flavor of all his prior two experiences.
	Actually, in the initial, and I went through all his questions, of course, with him, too.
	In his initial febrile episode he had as a child, he was 105 degrees.
	Fever is life-threatening and yet he really didn't he hallucinated, but didn't really go on to
	Basically have cessation of vital signs at this point He was sick enough that he was clearly not only unconscious
	but in a completely different realm So this was this was of the flavor of consistency with his
	prior to near-death experiences So once again Cougar you had a temperature probably right
	up there around 105 or worse Equivalent life-threatening you were on a you said you're a
	very narrow bridge
	Yes with an abyss all around you Yes.
	It was unsettling for me because I learned through my other near-death experiences a taste of immortality and that we live on.
	I really didn't fear death or anything at that point until I was in this abyss and all of a sudden everything was stripped away from me.
	Yeah, everybody I've talked to who's had an NDE says they no longer fear death and that was true of you too.
	Right.
	And now I'm back to feeling like a complete mortal within an immortal battlefield and was just completely overwhelmed with this and didn't understand why I didn't have any protection with me at all that I had normally carried with me.
	Protection of what sort?
	Well, the protection of love or some kind of sustenance from outside, or the internal strength that one would have, the ability to discern and be mentally acute and verbally defensive if you need to come to your own defense, all that was just gone.
	Gone away from me.
	And here you are in the middle of nowhere with nothing.
	Yes.
	That really would be frightening.
	So completely all alone?
	Yes, and I had no clue that anything like that could happen to us.
	Even though I'm finding out later that it seems to be a law of hell to be stripped naked when you go down there, and I saw that through the Inanna legend as well.
	All right.
	Hold on, Cougar.
	Hold on, Doctor, and we'll be back.
	We're talking about near-death experiences, and Cougars had one, and you've only heard but the beginning.
	I'm Art Bell.
	The trip back in time continues, with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
	More, somewhere in time, coming up.
	Letters I've written, never meaning to send.
	Beauty out of places With these eyes before Just what the truth is.
	I'm.
	Now we take you back to the past, on ArcBell Somewhere in Time.
	My guest is Dr. Jeff Long, a radiation oncologist who's brought to us Cougar.
	He researches NDEs and Cougar had a whopper and we're only beginning to hear about it.
	So there'll be more of that in a moment.
	Listen, a lot of you ought to take the time to go to my website before the night is over tonight and read a very special letter.
	There's a letter up there that ostensibly has been sent from the future.
	And it's a pretty serious letter, and I'm getting very serious responses from it.
	First item under what's new, email, message from the future, question mark.
	You might want to read that, digest it, and let me know what you think.
	In the meantime, we'll get right back to Cougar.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 21st, 2001.
	Once again to Dr. Jeff Long and to Cougar.
	And, uh, Doctor, feel free to break in anytime I'm not developing this the right way.
	Uh, or I'm missing something important.
	Okay.
	Uh, Cougar, you were on this little apparent metal bridge with an abyss all around you.
	Take it from, take it from there.
	Okay.
	Also within this abyss as things were going on, um, there was a little bit of light coming from the top and I can see that it was gradually closing up.
	It was like capping me off from the rest of the world.
	So I was inside this abyss now that was completely I was surrounded in darkness.
	I was trapped in there and there was no way out.
	At this point there were two beings that came up to me that were huge beings.
	All I can relate to them, they didn't give me names, but the only way I can relate is I called them like the great-grandmother and the dark great-grandfather had come to me.
	That's also the feeling and energy and everything that I was getting off of them.
	You were obviously relating things in a Native American way, weren't you?
	Yes.
	The Dark Great American Grandfather, or Great American, or Great Grandfather, that sounds very Native American.
	Well, to me it doesn't anymore, I guess, from the explorations I've had of Native.
	I mean, sometimes I will say Great Spirit also, instead of Holy Ghost, or the Father, or God, or whatever.
	They're all just different names for the same thing.
	All right, but this was not, this dark great-grandfather was not, as we think of God, but more like the devil?
	It would probably be transferable in that direction, yes.
	And it also, I guess, gives it the connotation of being from the earth rather than from the heavens.
	Okay.
	So this is something within the material creations that has actually reached the other polarity, you know, the lower polarity.
	The lower indeed.
	Yes, and that abyss is about as low as you can get.
	So they came to me and they were welcoming me there.
	They had stripped me naked and I guess they were getting me prepared to be as vulnerable as possible to give me their spiel on the underworld.
	What they did was they introduced me to the real creation.
	All of the universe and creation came into being.
	This is our story.
	We're telling you things you never knew before, and this is the truth.
	And what I was getting out of them was very terrifying, and I realized it was half-truth and half-lie.
	And what was scary was knowing the truthful parts and not being able to tell where the lie began and ended.
	Well, I'm interested.
	How did they suggest to you that all was created?
	And how does that differ from what we believe?
	Yeah, that's a good question.
	I kind of break my story up when I sometimes talk about it and don't really get the complete imagery there.
	But they didn't just tell me, but they showed me.
	I was watching the creation they gave me.
	They thrust it into my mind and so I was in the middle of this big thing.
	A lot of this part I blocked out because it was too terrifying.
	When I came out of this experience I tried to get as far away from it as I could because There is enough truth in it, you'd really wonder about the whole thing.
	Well, is there a way for you to describe what you saw?
	Yes, I know there is.
	One place I can give as an example of the whole creation story they gave me was the place where we were migrating to the Earth.
	There hasn't been life here on the Earth at that point in time, and they were coming from different parts, different galaxies.
	And they showed the migration as if we were tiny spores, like spiny spores, floating through space, reaching the earth.
	We were glad to be here.
	We had used up wherever we had been previously, and we were coming to this planet, engaged in this planet, went through the evolutionary scales, and we tore down trees.
	We would eat things to survive.
	So they were showing me how we had to kill Other things in order to survive ourselves.
	This is the way of life.
	This is the way of nature.
	In other words, in other words, if I just heard you correctly, we were not created as God has said the Earth and human beings were created, but rather we came from other galaxies as sort of drifting spores that found their new home here on Earth.
	Right.
	To exploit this place.
	Yeah, to survive, to live.
	I mean, it's our will, our desire.
	This is what we need to do.
	And what else could there be?
	You know, they were trying to reel me into this story.
	And that was pretty terrifying because I know there are elements of that.
	I mean, we do have to eat and we have big debates over whether we should be meat eaters or vegetarians.
	It goes into all kinds of ramifications from that point.
	Well, it's not just that.
	Other implications are a lot bigger than that.
	They're, where did we come from?
	Did it really happen, as God said, in seven days?
	Six days, excuse me, a day of rest, were we whipped up?
	Or did we drift here to just use up this planet?
	Which, by the way, we're doing right now.
	Yes.
	I might have to interject.
	Whenever Cougar talks about the Communication from these dark beings that he's encountered
	you are everybody must understand that these are malicious lies
	intended to deceive They're intended to try to convince Cougar that he is one
	of them And it's a temptation to lead him deeper and deeper into
	hell which he's going to listen to It's eerie artists to see how you start processing. This is
	potentially true. It's not it's a lie, and it's a manifestation of a very intelligent evil force. How do you
	know it's a lie?
	Well being in a heavenly experience I had a heavenly in you as well to compare it to so I had some preparation
	Myself in order to have I guess some kind of resistance against it
	Even though I was stripped completely naked, I did kind of know better in the back of my head, but they were really overwhelming me with their versions of things.
	Did you have a sense of yourself?
	Were you in the physical?
	Could you touch yourself?
	I could touch myself, but I don't think it was my real body that was there in that place.
	It's like one world comes in, and when it's strong enough, it overwhelms the other world.
	So at this point, the material world was not there anymore.
	Were you thinking in a rational way?
	In other words, you were standing on the bridge, for example.
	Were you saying, oh God, you know, I'm on a bridge, I'm all alone, and I could fall off, and what am I going to fall into?
	Exactly.
	So you were processing information like that?
	But now I probably couldn't have added two and two together.
	It was like a different kind of emotional logic had come into being with me that I had never quite experienced before either, having to deal with what was going on.
	I was in what I call fast thought time.
	There was a lot of stuff to process.
	There was more than one conversation going on at the same time and I could read all of those conversations.
	I understood the processes.
	You know what I mean?
	I was going in parallel with the different things happening and understanding it all.
	It was not overwhelming from that standpoint of not being able to capture it all.
	I wasn't trying to capture it, but it was thrust on me.
	Alright, so they showed you their version of creation.
	Yes.
	Then what?
	In that sense what they were trying to do was show me that I was the kindred spirit with them and I was of them and I should accept being with them because we were all the same in one.
	They went on into a second stage and by the way I kind of call this the first stage that they took me through like the throne room because I saw the great dark grandmother and great dark grandfather, the central beings of this place.
	Next place, well before the place they took me into, they showed me people who had lived on this earth before.
	They made me feel what they felt.
	They showed me people who were famous by history and they showed me many unknowns.
	All these people had been doing work for the dark side.
	The dark side was using them and at the same time they were also using the dark side to get what they want.
	So it was kind of an advertisement of here are your comrades?
	Yeah, see look what they're doing.
	They're doing this great work and look at the heady feelings they're getting out of this, the triumphs and rewards that they get from living this kind of life.
	And these were very successful people for the most part?
	Yes.
	And I think successful a lot because of the dark power that was able to play through them and manipulate Um, probably certain events around them to have things happen, you know, that we call coincidence.
	Well, let me tell you.
	Father Malachi Martin, uh, I interviewed many times, the late Father Malachi Martin.
	I respected him, uh, greatly, and he had told me a number of times that there were what he called perfectly possessed people, and that these people, uh, They weren't twisting their heads around like Linda Blair.
	Right.
	Tossing up green pea soup or whatever.
	They were simply, quietly, or not so quietly, very successful people, rich many times, powerful many times, who had made their deal with the dark side.
	And it was a deal in progress.
	In other words, they were having their success.
	And he told me he could recognize these people when he'd pass them on the street.
	You could see it in their eyes.
	You could see it in their aura.
	You could... Everything about them said they were possessed of the dark.
	Are you getting goosebumps off this, Dr. Long?
	God, Art, you don't know what you just said.
	Yeah.
	I'll bet you... Are you Cougar?
	We're gonna have to talk.
	Oh, my.
	That's...
	I was not aware of that particular show, but I need to listen to it again.
	Cougar, carry on.
	Why?
	What you just talked about comes up just around the corner here.
	I see.
	So they showed me these people on the planet and showed me how they survived it and how they did more than survive it and become powerful people.
	Some of them are still considered famous today who did great things.
	Of course, there are great things that are side effects from what they did for their
	personal power.
	Then they showed me these same people there in the banquet room in hell.
	This is the only other way I can describe it.
	It's like the hall of feasting in the abyss.
	These people were not being tortured.
	They weren't torturing each other.
	I did not hear suffering.
	I just heard pleasure.
	I saw pleasure.
	I saw them doing whatever they wanted to do.
	They were doing everything they wanted to do with each other.
	They're all willing participants.
	Really?
	And I was forced to feel what they were feeling.
	Do you mean like physical stuff?
	Sexual orgies?
	Yeah, some of it was sexual, some of it was eating, some of it was just, I don't know, pushing at each other and having fun.
	All the pleasures of life.
	Yeah, thoroughly intoxicating.
	And they were trying to draw me into this, not only by seeing it, but by feeling it.
	They put it inside my head.
	They put it in my body.
	They made me feel their lust and everything else.
	And this was very difficult to resist because there's a human side of us that say, geez, they just set me free in this playground, you know?
	Well, there is this, Cougar.
	Most of us have thought of heaven as sort of a sterile place where there wouldn't be beer, smokes, Women, you know, in the sense we know them here on earth, biblically, that there wouldn't be any of that.
	That we'd be flying around up there with maybe wings, which sounds somewhat appealing, but otherwise it would be kind of boring.
	And then other people have pictured hell in sort of the way you're talking about it.
	Yes.
	They were showing me everything pleasurable.
	They were trying to indoctrinate me, I guess, into their side.
	They wanted my power.
	They wanted me to work for them.
	And I guess the only thing I can presume is that my own spiritual growth was reaching a point that it came to their attention that they thought they might as well give me a tour of hell.
	Before I start going too far on the side of the light and actually work against their efforts, or not really against their efforts but in a different direction, not giving them any power whatsoever or any justification in this world.
	So how did you react to this?
	I mean, you're being fed all these conversations.
	Yeah, it was very difficult.
	I realized that it was too excessive.
	Don't be afraid to say anything.
	I needed to join them, I didn't have much choice.
	But on the other hand, when I was drawing back in it and realizing the temporalness
	of it, there's just passing pleasure, the more I drew away from it, the more nauseated
	I got.
	I got very sickened by what I was seeing.
	So I remained in that place and stayed in a sickened state and did not like what I was
	seeing.
	I would look over to the dark grandmother and grandfather and tell them, thank you for
	showing me this, but I don't want to see any more.
	I was giving them respect.
	I was saying, I appreciate you showing me, but I don't want to see any more.
	I'd like to get out of here.
	They would not let go of me.
	They weren't about to give up on me here.
	Weren't they telling you, Cougar, that if you chose to leave, you would die?
	Yeah, that came a little bit later.
	There was a point where...
	You know, either join us or we will kill you.
	You know, that's your choice.
	You have a choice.
	You can join us or kill us.
	But that was just the last resort.
	That was the last step of saying, okay, he's not buying into any of this other stuff.
	Well, excuse me, but when you're in hell and they say they're going to kill you, what does that mean?
	They were going to annihilate my soul.
	Oh.
	You know, I would be completely wiped out.
	And it wasn't that they were going to take me to the killing fields or anything.
	They were just going to kill me.
	And of course, I was mortal now.
	I was no longer feeling any kind of immortality, so yeah, I was going to die.
	And for me, it was just, okay, here's my choice.
	What do I do?
	I said I'd just rather die than deal with this side, but I kind of missed a step here.
	Before that choice came up, also the other part of the temptation they were doing was Now you see how these people operated on earth.
	You see what they're enjoying here in hell.
	We can work through you and here's how it's done.
	They threw their energy into me in another different way.
	They said, now we can work through your eyes.
	This is touching on what you said earlier.
	They also showed me how these other people operated and the darkness was working through their eyes.
	I was saying, well this is too obvious.
	They recognized me immediately on the street with this dark power.
	They said, no, there will be a mist that will cover your eyes that the average person would
	not be aware that we were working through you.
	There would be only a few people like you or maybe some other people who would recognize
	these people on the street by looking in their eyes.
	But overall, most of mankind would not have a clue.
	I was just floored.
	That's what put the chills down your spine then, isn't it?
	Yes.
	And I was floored because I saw what they were saying was true.
	Even though I could look at my own eyes there in hell and see that dark power.
	They were offering you the deal.
	The big deal.
	I think I've got it all right.
	And it would be in your eyes, but other mortals would not notice it.
	Maybe normal mortals.
	But maybe mortals who are like Father Malachi Martin do.
	I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 21st, 2001.
	Let's get started.
	This is a test.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 21, 2001.
	Dr. Jeff Long is here.
	And I love every school boo. Love me tenderly. Even crying.
	Premier Networks presents Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM. From May 21, 2001.
	Dr. Jeff Long is here. He's a radiation oncologist.
	And he's brought Cougar with him, who is giving you a description of his trip to...
	the place you don't want to go to, necessarily.
	And so, he was kind of in the middle of being shown what pleasures would await should he make, I guess, what they consider to be the right decision.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 21st, 2001.
	Alright, back down we go with Dr. Long and Cougar.
	Gentlemen, welcome back.
	You're back on the air again.
	You were being shown all these fleshy type things and all this fun and debauchery that was going on down there.
	Not exactly your classic picture of hell for most people.
	I mean, most of us think it's fire and brimstone and burning coals and all that sort of stuff.
	Cougar?
	Yes.
	They were trying to win me over, I think, so that I could do their work for them on the earth.
	They were going to use my body to do that, and at the same time they promised me I could have whatever I want.
	So it was kind of a mutual thing.
	They were trying to get me to agree with them.
	I've been asked why I didn't just give in to the pleasures, which is pretty human to want to do that.
	One of the other things other than what I talked about earlier about feeling mortal The other thing that was obvious to me was the extreme lack of love down there.
	There was no love at all there, whereas in the heavenly experience there was all love surrounding.
	So this kind of gave away something to me here.
	That was extremely terrifying also.
	I could not even generate any love within myself, let alone feel it from anywhere outside of me.
	So I was completely trapped in this cold place.
	The other processing thoughts I had was that this was a real place of power.
	For people who wanted to do dark power, and that if there were sorcerers who came into this area that had no heart themselves or had no real love on earth, that they may not even know, they may not even notice that there was no love there.
	They may think things were fine down there.
	Hey, this is a great place!
	Yeah, do you think that was a real depiction of what hell is like, what you described?
	I think that there's probably many different levels and areas and aspects of it, and I was kind of given the royal treatment here.
	I was taken to the throne room and the halls of feasting and stuff, but like I said, they did not show me anything that I would consider the killing fields or the torture chambers or whatever they do.
	They weren't trying to do that.
	They weren't trying to trap me and keep me there and make me suffer.
	Yeah, very interesting.
	They were offering you, here it is folks, every kind of debauchery you can imagine.
	Want to join in?
	It's here for the taking.
	I also had the intuition enough to know that if they did this to me they would just use me up until I was gone so it was not like an eternal thing that I would probably have.
	The ugly stuff would come later.
	I definitely did not want to join in with what they had.
	And so?
	Well, I wanted eternal life back and I knew this would not last down there.
	Like I said, they gave me that choice of either join us or die, and so now I was dealing with not even existing in either place.
	And the ultimate decision was to not join in.
	And that's when I went into unconsciousness.
	I do not know what happened at that point.
	I don't know.
	So in other words, it's like they carried through with their threat.
	Yes.
	But it seemed to be several hours.
	It would go on forever.
	I had no promise of when I was going to come out.
	They would keep me there a day or a week.
	It could be a month before I'd get out of there.
	And all I could do was just grip my teeth and bear it and hang on as long as I could.
	So, uh, you say you went unconscious?
	Yes.
	And yet you had a sense of time?
	No.
	No.
	No, the hours that went on was when I was there and I could not close my eyes.
	When I closed my eyes, they would burn the images into my brain.
	If I stopped my ears up, I would still hear all this stuff going on.
	There was no way to back off from what they were showing me.
	And this did go on for hours.
	In a conscious state.
	All right, but finally you rejected it and it was lights out.
	And they wore me down to where, what else could I do, you know?
	And I just went unconscious.
	That's all I know how to say.
	I don't know how to describe what happened.
	That's fine.
	Nope, that's fine.
	I know I was, you know, immediately afterwards I blocked out as much as I could because if I tried to rehearse it or rehash what happened just an hour or two after I came out of it, It would have been just following me that much more, and I just wanted to leave it as far behind as I could.
	Okay.
	Unconscious.
	Then what?
	I came, I don't know how long the time was, but I just woke up, straight woke up, shot woke up in the consciousness, and I felt safe.
	But I did feel very fragile, very weak, and very empty.
	But at least I know that they The tough part was over.
	That was gone.
	I survived.
	I don't know how I survived.
	I thank God for that.
	Part of the story that connects with Inanna as well, even as the physical events occurred, is that when I stepped out of the sacred circle, I had two bees come up to me at eye level, one at each eye.
	They stayed right on track with my eyes.
	And as I stepped out of the circle, they stayed equal distance from my head.
	I said, what is going on here?
	They're not stinging me.
	They're not coming any closer.
	They're staying an exact distance.
	So I just thought about what I was around and what I was in and said, oh yeah, I forgot to thank the Sacred Circle for its protection.
	I forgot to thank Grandpa Roberts out in his pod house for sending love to me and hoping everything would go okay, doing the drumming for me.
	Again when I did that prayer the bees disappeared and I went further from the sacred circle.
	About 40 feet later there was like another outer circle there where I had to go through
	a rock and some trees kind of like a gateway out through that way.
	When I was stepping through there those two bees, I assume they were the same two bees,
	came up to me.
	They were the same place.
	They went at my eye level.
	They hovered right there and would not let me go any further.
	I said, okay what else am I missing here?
	And what I had to do was reconnect with the land is what I picked up and I did.
	I felt everything around me and thanked the land, I guess, for just being here.
	It's like kissing the earth when you finally come off the ocean and you finally reach ground.
	And right when I did that, they left again.
	And this ties in with the Inanna story as well, which maybe Dr. Jeff can go into that later if he does any review of this, because there were Nine obvious phases between the process I did going into hell and Inanna.
	We went through all nine of those phases and there turned out to be like 20 similar items within the whole experience between what we experienced.
	It was almost like I was reliving that myth from the 18th century B.C.
	I did not know this until last year.
	I had books boxed away for like 15 years and had just This is another strange thing.
	It seems like most of these things happen in September, around September, and I believe this was also like September 17th when I uncovered this book on Poems of Heaven and Hell.
	During this time I was writing documentation for Dr. Long on these three Indies I had when I came across this book.
	I've got to read this book because I'm writing him experiences about Heaven and Hell as well.
	I wonder what this book contains.
	I got into that book and it blew me away.
	And so I ended up writing another whole comparison study between her stuff and mine.
	Her stuff?
	Whose?
	Ancient Inanna.
	Between her journey to hell and how compared to my legend.
	I have like a 14 page document I made of that in perfect description.
	Alright, well I really want to thank you for relating all of this.
	Is there anything else we should know?
	Well, let me think.
	Where do you want to go with this?
	What do you think, Dr. Jeff?
	Well, you've had quite a few, Bob, similar to other post-Indy years.
	You've had your share of sort of special psychic or paranormal abilities following this.
	You relate some of those to me, which I think are quite interesting.
	You know, the electrical sensitivity is a very common thing.
	I know you can't wear a watch.
	Whenever you're around a group of near-death experiencers, it's very typical that the ones that have had an experience can't really wear a watch well.
	They keep having trouble with it.
	Yes, for a while it seemed coincidental, but apparently there were times when I felt a higher energy.
	I don't know how to explain this, but when you're kind of on a high, a natural high, like when you're first falling in love and stuff like that.
	There was more of a tendency that light bulbs would blow out and I experimented with that
	on some street lights one night because it happened so often.
	I said this has got to be more than a coincidence.
	I actually worked my way down the street from standing in one spot and looking at street
	lights.
	I worked my way down the street blowing out the lights just to prove it to myself that
	it was really me doing it and not just coincidence.
	You're sure you made no deals, right?
	I know.
	This was actually after the second experience, the heavenly experience where this came about
	and I was aware of that power and was doing that.
	From the hellish experience, there was something occurring to Inanna.
	They described it as demons clinging to her thighs as she came out of hell.
	I felt something similar in the sense that they were still trying to work the dark power through me.
	They wanted to tempt me still.
	They said, here, you have it.
	Use it.
	I had to resist using that.
	I was telepathically reading people's minds.
	When I looked at people's faces, I could tell what kind of past they had, if they were in spousal, abusal situations or if it was childhood abuse.
	There's usually all the negative stuff, as well as picking up from people.
	I kept trying to block that.
	It was very difficult.
	It came apart within three days to a week.
	It was just too much.
	Grandpa Robert saw that I was going through a lot.
	And he said, what you need to do is go out to Mount Shasta and clear yourself of this dark power, which I did.
	I took a journey to Mount Shasta and spent about a week on the mountain.
	I had a pretty high experience there.
	I had a lot of dreams during this time in different places.
	I would park near lakes, lake beds near Mount Shasta and seem to get some resolution off this dark side about what the purpose of the Dark Power was.
	Why do they do this bad stuff to you?
	Why are they here?
	Why wasn't it a heavenly experience?
	And a lot of these questions were answered to me in my dreams, which I'd like to call the spirit of the Lady of the Lakes.
	The different lakes I was at.
	Lake Siskiyou and stuff like that.
	All right.
	Well, Cougar, I want to thank you for coming on and telling us about this tonight.
	And thank you.
	And you take care, my friend.
	Okay.
	All right.
	There's Cougar.
	Take care, Cougar.
	Dr. Long, I don't know.
	I'm not sure that in my mind, interesting as it was, that his story rises to the level of Sarah's, and a couple of reasons.
	I guess, one, he seems inclined toward the exact kind of spiritual experience, positive or negative, he had because of his connection, his Native American connection.
	He seemed inclined toward that in the first place, and there goes an alarm here.
	That's probably our local cat doing that.
	Anyway, he seemed inclined toward that kind of experience, and that's exactly what he got, either positive or negative.
	He related it to what he believed.
	Actually, what he did... Encountering hell like that was really not anything that he had a preconceived notion of.
	Neither he, nor I, nor I think most people have an expectation of hell.
	First of all, there's actually Two beings of darkness.
	You know, people think of a single devil.
	Yes, but you refer to them as a great-grandfather and great-grandmother.
	So there are actually two of them.
	And second of all, I don't really think any Native American spirituality or teaching really talks about the kind of temptations that he faced.
	So I found that to be... No, I agree with that.
	And then finally, generally when people have mystical experiences, You don't seek out an experience where you're basically going to be tortured or racked, as Cougar was.
	That's right.
	He was sickened trying to resist this overwhelming temptation.
	The take I got on this art is, and this is what's so chilling about this account, is that this wasn't anything, and like most near-death experiencers, the experience really is not what they're expecting, and you can ask them directly, and very, very few will say that this is what they expected, and I ask that as part of my research.
	What my take on this is that he encountered a diabolic, markedly intelligent evil being.
	An evil being that was so cunning that right from the moment they introduced themselves, they used family terms, grandmother, grandfather, to try to make him feel like he was one of them.
	Oh, yes.
	The whole course of this experience was that of trying to make him think that he was a part of them.
	I mean, even to this very chilling concept that, hey, you have to kill on Earth here, In order to survive, so doesn't that make you like us, who kill with impunity, out of evil?
	And with this half-truth, they sort of gradually took him down the path of step-by-step, starting out with a very logical, sort of familial connection, greeting, and just going down the path, showing him Even famous people, wouldn't you like to be famous?
	Wouldn't you like to have this feedback of being rich, of being powerful on earth?
	Look at how these people felt, and he felt it just like them.
	And then finally, to the bowels of hell, where you're actually seeing all these people acting out, as Cougars relate to me, in every possible type of perversion, gluttony, in an environment that superficial.
	It might actually be a form of heaven, but it's not.
	Lost minus love.
	Yeah, this is not anything that I've ever run to from anybody that would ever have expected this as part of their spiritual experience.
	This seems to be some kind of a combination of Cougar's readiness and something very, very dark and very intelligent and very, very evil trying to capture him, lure him into something unspeakable, become part of them.
	And you say that you think probably about 15% of NDEs are of this sort.
	Nothing as graphic where you actually encounter like a grandmother or grandfather of hell.
	Of the population of frightening near-death experiences, most are different from this quite a bit.
	In fact, one of the most common types of near-death experiences that I've run into that are perceived as frightening are
	people that have seemingly pleasant experiences, but because it's so unfamiliar to them and they feel out of
	control, they're frightened.
	I had a very graphic near-death experience where somebody got into a car wreck and the
	ambulance picked them up and the ambulance was taking them off.
	A lot of near-death experiences involve ambulance trips, because that's where they code or die.
	Sure.
	Very typically, they'll have an out-of-body experience where they can actually see the ambulance people trying to resuscitate them.
	Oh, yes.
	You've run into those.
	Oh, yes.
	They're fairly common.
	Well, in one experience I ran into, this individual was in the out-of-body experience, and Art Angel You came to visit this person while they were out of body and while they were basically coded, right in the ambulance.
	Now, you and I would say, great, angels, and welcome them, and it would be a blissful experience, but this person was terrified.
	He flailed at the angels.
	He tried to fight them off.
	He was frightened.
	And this is a type of frightening near-death experience where you have very positive, pleasant imagery, most people would think, but the experience is just so unusual, and they're just not ready for it, and it scares them.
	That's one type of frightening near-death experience.
	There are two others.
	We've talked about the hellish.
	I guess a third type of frightening near-death experience is a void, an emptiness, a complete lack of connection with anything or anybody.
	Often it's a void experience, which can be accompanied by cold feelings and distant feelings.
	It can also involve a sense that you've been annihilated, that you never existed and never have and never would.
	Is that a total emptiness even to your very being?
	Well, that would be kind of hell, wouldn't it?
	That's a form of hell.
	So that's another fairly common type of theme that I see in the frightening near-death experiences, and it's very frightening when people come through this and feel that they've been totally disconnected, and they really come through an experience like this basically asking questions.
	Well, what is there?
	How are we really all connected?
	How do I really fit in?
	So that's the kind of questions that these types of experiencers have to answer in their own lives when this happens.
	Those are the three types of frightening near-death experiences.
	Again, about 15% or so, as best we can tell, of near-death experiences being frightening like this.
	Alright, Doctor.
	Well, we've got a link to your website.
	I want to thank you for being here tonight and for bringing Cougar to us.
	My pleasure.
	And we surely will do this again sometime because these things seem to go on and on.
	It's remarkable.
	Near-death experiences are absolutely astonishing.
	They are.
	Thank you, Doctor.
	My pleasure.
	Good night.
	And then, also to note, folks, the one common experience they all have, positive or negative, is they seem to come away with some sort of phenomenal power which fades given time.
	Some sort of ESP, the ability to read minds.
	The ability to blow out light bulbs, but it fades.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 21st 2001 We never had a guy such as this, yeah
	He starts me off, why can't I get him?
	Love is what our heart aint never redeemed, yeah I've never had a kid that's all the way
	I'm trying to raise you but I just can't win, yeah He starts me off, why can't I get him?
	Outro Music What will you do when you get lonely?
	Oh, I'm waiting by your side.
	You've been runnin', I've been rushin' on.
	You know it's just your foolish mind.
	Yeah, love got me on my knees.
	Dang it, darling, please don't leave.
	Darling, don't you use my money now I tried to give you consolation
	But your old man had let you down You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 21st, 2001.
	You know, it does make you wonder what hell really is like, doesn't it?
	It's a kind of a blurry, strange distinction that's been drawn for us.
	One thing I did get from the The NDE experience tonight was a debauchery going on down
	there that he found he was very drawn to and then sickened by
	There's some synchronicity for you Anyway, good morning everybody.
	We're in open lines for the next hour.
	or anything you want to talk about.
	Somewhere in time with Art Bell continues courtesy of Premiere Networks.
	Well, I would suggest that you all follow the trail.
	Go to my website, go to Program Tonight's Guest Info, and under the name Richard Hoagland and Peter Gersten, you'll see website NASA alleges new images on the face on Mars.
	Read the letter that went out from this front group that they formed called Facets.
	The first one, 316, Facets Demand Letter to NASA's Dan Golden.
	And then the incredible answer, NASA responds to Facets Demand Letter, And in there, you will find a statement from NASA that, in fact, they had complied with the demands, or requests, depending on how you put it, of FACET, I guess demand is the word they use, and had imaged a face in question with even more, and everything wanted is up on the web as of
	The 19th of April of 2001.
	And then you'll see Facet's response to the NASA letter.
	And then if you want to go looking for yourself, you're certainly welcome to.
	But the face of it, excuse the pun, on the face of it, it seems as though NASA's saying, we got a full-on shot of the face on Mars, and it's all up there for you.
	We have done as you have asked.
	And the part of the letter that gets me is that they seem to suggest, directly in the letter, that it was done as a result of the letter and following the letter.
	So... What's going on here?
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Hi, is this Art?
	Yes.
	Hi, Art.
	This is Ken from Sacramento County.
	When I spoke to you once before, But I've got a little story to tell that happened to me when I was a younger man.
	I was about 33, as a matter of fact, and I lived in Florida.
	Yes, sir.
	And I lived down in an area, I don't know if you're familiar with it, Pensacola, Milton, Eglin Air Force Base, down that way.
	I know where it is, yes.
	And I was out hunting one day, and I was on a river called the Yellow River on Eglin Air Force Base.
	And I've heard you talk about the triangles of UFOs or whatever.
	And I was sitting there, you know, stalking some deer, just, you know, hanging out down on the river there.
	Yes.
	And there was this, it looked like a stealth fighter, except this plane that went over me had a pointed nose, it was triangular, and it had like six propellers in the back of it.
	Really?
	And it made the same noise that a person that you spoke about here three or four weeks ago was talking about the different noises like that.
	Oh, yes.
	Yes.
	And it made that very same sound.
	Well, this airplane, vehicle, whatever it was, was going very, very slow.
	I mean, it was just going so slow you couldn't even imagine how slow it was going.
	Right.
	And it was going up the river.
	And it was on Eglin Air Force Base there, and there was cloud cover, and it was making that noise, and it just went right on.
	I'm just wondering if that's something similar to what you've seen, or... No.
	No?
	So I'm just wondering if that was a forerunner to a stealth, or... Uh... I... I would have no way of knowing, but I wouldn't think that propeller technology would have any relationship to stealth, although I suppose they could be This is 1973.
	Yeah, they might be checking out some sort of aerodynamic design or something.
	I suppose that would be possible.
	You know, a pre-stealth aerodynamic test.
	But it sounded... Like that?
	Well, I can hardly hear what you're playing.
	Really?
	Wow.
	Oh yeah, you've got to have a little bass response to be able to hear it, and that just doesn't go over a phone.
	But kind of a throbbing sound?
	Oh yeah, yeah, it made that very same sound.
	And this thing was, as it passed over, I saw it coming right at me with, you know, like a window kind of pointed down, and it was a triangle-shaped airplane, if that's what it was.
	And that's down in that area, you know, where they have a lot of sightings of UFOs and so forth, down in that Gulf Breeze area.
	Well, that's what I would say to you.
	I would say that if it had any relationship to stealth, that it might have been an aerodynamic test of the physical design of the airframe.
	That's all I could imagine.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Turn your radio off, please.
	Hello?
	Hello?
	Yes, this is Art Bell.
	Yes, it is.
	This is Mike.
	I'm in Fort Benton, Montana.
	I'm driving my big truck loaded with tombstones.
	Tombstones?
	You're driving a truck loaded with tombstones?
	Yes, sir.
	Okay.
	That's what I do for a living.
	I do it all the time.
	Actually, I delivered to Pahrump, Nevada one time.
	Really?
	Well, people die here.
	Like everywhere else.
	Do these tombstones, are they yet inscribed with names?
	Some of them are, yeah.
	Some of them are?
	Yeah, for the most part, they're not.
	Now, how'd you like to be loading your truck one day and load a tombstone with your name on it?
	Well, I always said that when I was unloading them, if we had an accident and it fell on me and killed me, that that would be mine.
	That would be your tombstone.
	Right, right.
	I didn't have to put my name on that one.
	No, I wouldn't like to see my own name on it there.
	Well, that's a heavy load.
	That's right.
	So, um, anyway.
	I've got it all figured out, Art.
	All right.
	Good, because I don't.
	Well, it seems to me how, like, you know, how there's the sun and the solar system and everything and all the planets flying around it.
	Yes?
	It just seems so similar to an atom.
	Yes, it does.
	It's what it is.
	And I've got it figured out now.
	I know what life is.
	In each living thing, there's an exact replica of our own solar system.
	Well, then what's life?
	If you've got that part figured out, I want to know.
	What are we as nothing but tiny specks on an atom, running around like... Well, I see when you die now, okay?
	Or whatever.
	You decompose and all your atoms or whatever get dispersed throughout the world.
	But there's that one big atom that is...
	It's an exact replica of our own solar system, and that's you!
	You know and you float around you go up into a piece of grass get eaten by a cow or whatever and then come out
	In the milk and and then you're born again Well I never quite thought of it that way but
	You know the the high women sound about a song about coming back as a single drop of rain, so
	Yeah, maybe It just seems so coincidental that it seems exactly the same model as a solar system is to an atom, and you know, I don't know if that... Oh, it's as good an explanation as anybody else's.
	Listen, do you have a good big air horn on that giant tombstone hauling machine?
	Oh yeah, sure, you betcha!
	Alright, let her rip.
	Let's hear it.
	You got it.
	Oh my God.
	Alright, thank you very much and take care.
	That sounded like, uh, can you imagine rolling tombstones?
	Why not?
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, it's Mike again.
	Mike again?
	I mean Michael from Indio, California.
	I'm listening to KNews 970.
	Yes, sir.
	Or, uh, a few minutes ago, this is kind of weird.
	While I was listening to your show on 970, you made me change the dial to the more monstrous KFI 640.
	Yes.
	Yeah, the monster.
	Yes, sir.
	Yeah.
	A few minutes ago, I was, you know, listening to the callers and stuff.
	Yes.
	I called you last month about the, I believe, the UFO story I emailed you.
	Are you still on?
	I'm listening.
	There was a giant crunch on the line.
	I don't know what that was.
	Well, a few minutes ago, the radio was making some weird frequency noise.
	And we had like a little rumble, like an earthquake or something around 210.
	Oh, you did?
	And what happened, it made the radio have some kind of weird frequency, and across the street from us, we had dogs barking.
	Yeah, sounds like you might have had a little earthquake.
	Right, and also my plate collection was shaking.
	That would be an earthquake.
	Yeah, but it wasn't not like over four or five, but you could feel it, and I could tell You know, it's interesting, thank you, that you would notice a frequency disruption in the radio during an earthquake.
	During an earthquake, there are electromagnetic things happening as tectonic plates shift against each other.
	There is energy released, and so I'm not surprised you would hear something strange on the radio.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	This is Kathy in Oklahoma City.
	Hi, Kathy.
	Hi.
	I just have a couple things for you.
	First, the guest tonight, just remember that the two beings that he saw, whether he was actually dead or not, called themselves grandmother and grandfather.
	Yes.
	The demonic realm is extremely intelligent.
	Listen, I'm very comfortable with that.
	It's just that, you know, as I measure it, I measure everything now against Sarah's NDE.
	Yeah, I understand.
	And you heard, I think, the same differences I heard, right?
	Oh yeah, major differences.
	In other words, this man would be predisposed to see grandmother and grandfather.
	It's possible, but remember that they knew what he would be predisposed to see.
	Absolutely.
	Yeah, okay.
	As long as I know that you know that.
	Oh, sure.
	Okay.
	Sure.
	Anyway, none of the other stuff seemed to be predisposed to anything.
	I thought it was interesting the way they were trying to deceive him.
	That part was interesting to me.
	Okay, second, I have a ghost on video.
	On video?
	Yes.
	A couple months ago, I recorded Linda Blair's The World's Most Scariest Places.
	They went to Chillingham Castle in Northern England.
	I recorded the whole show, and at the end, this girl's down in the dungeon, and there's this mirror on a table behind her.
	And all the electrical equipment starts going off one by one, all the cameras in the other rooms, because they have those night-vision cameras set up, because it's so black.
	Yes.
	Well, just before her camera goes off, The mirror goes flying off the table and so I thought, well that's interesting.
	So I ran it back and I ran it in slow motion and you can see the ghost go by the camera.
	It comes from the right, goes to the left and swirls back around and hits the mirror from the top because I thought they were pulling it off of a string and so I was running it in slow motion.
	It's interesting.
	Well, I would say send it to me, but it's a copyrighted piece of material, so you can't do that.
	They have a website.
	They may have it on there.
	ScariestPlaces.com.
	One last thing for you, Art.
	Yes.
	I've listened to you for a long time.
	You used to call yourself maybe a Christian.
	Now you say maybe an agnostic.
	Maybe.
	Well, you know why I stopped calling myself a Christian?
	Please tell me.
	I don't compare favorably to what most Christians say they are.
	Right.
	I understand.
	So I don't even attempt to.
	If I don't measure up, then I don't measure up, and I don't have a problem with that.
	I'm in search of, and I don't know what I am.
	Really, I don't know what I am.
	I do think there is a creative force, a God force, and that's about as far as I can go.
	Well, I do hear your heart crying out for the truth, and if you could just give me 30 seconds, I just want to tell you something.
	This is very simple.
	Forget everything you've ever heard, especially what the Christians have said.
	I'm going to be real brief.
	God is holy.
	Satan is evil.
	Adam and Eve used their free will to choose to do the one thing God warned them not to do.
	God, being a God of justice, had to follow through with the penalty of death, but, being a God of mercy, did not want them to have eternal death.
	Became a man, lived a holy life, and died for us because we are their children.
	We inherited their sin.
	But what an insidious plan for us.
	In other words, the God you speak of.
	On the one hand, gives us paradise, and then gives us free will, and tempts us, he would have to know since he is God, beyond our ability to resist, crunch, big bite, oh apple, and out of the pool, everybody, right?
	It just, I don't know, the whole story never quite clicked with me for some reason.
	That's my problem.
	It just doesn't quite click with me.
	Such an all-knowing, all-being, all-loving God would know exactly the twisted little scenario that he's setting up for mankind.
	Wouldn't he?
	Or shouldn't he?
	And that's just one of the little problems that I have with it all.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, this is Bobby in San Diego.
	Yes, Bobby.
	I was wondering when the next time you might give Charles Tartt Um, for an interview again.
	Oh, you never know.
	Anytime.
	He's a great interviewer, of course.
	Uh, yeah.
	Um, also I was wondering, uh, what, uh, Mike Siegel is up to.
	I think he's filling in for, um, uh, Michael Reagan.
	Hmm.
	And, um, it was really, uh, interesting, uh, the, uh, Driver of the tombstones who drew the analogy of the atom in our solar system.
	Of course, that's crossed my mind.
	Yeah, he was pretty much right on.
	I mean, that's as good a theory as anybody's.
	Everything is a microcosm of everything else, but it's all related.
	Right?
	Oh yeah, of course.
	Okay, thank you.
	In other words, when you look at the atom, And you look at the way electrons move, and you consider the way the Sun and the planets move, and everything around that moves bigger and bigger, or smaller and smaller, depending on the direction you want to go, then it might all make sense.
	There might be a commonality there.
	Sure.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, how are you doing today?
	Fine.
	My name is Dana, and I'm from Riverside, but I kind of I don't mind telling you that, but I'm not sure if I want to disclose it on the air, but I have some things.
	You're on the air, sir.
	Oh.
	Okay, thank you.
	Turn your radio off.
	It is off.
	Is this Mr. Art Bell?
	Yes.
	I'm the only one here.
	It's the only possibility.
	Oh, yes.
	Hey, uh, gosh.
	Boy, there's so many things.
	Just pick one.
	Okay, sure.
	I enjoy your website very much, and I want to say that I think it's great that you're incorporating Oh, just how you handle the calls.
	You let people kind of go on with what they say.
	I just want to say it's a great show.
	I enjoy listening to it.
	Thank you.
	I've had a near-death experience, maybe not so near as others.
	I've had situations where I could have lost my life very easily.
	I kind of question why sometimes I did live in one sense and in another deeper sense I realized A sense of purpose, not just for my life, but for all life.
	And one thing I heard you mention, just most recently, is that something didn't click with you.
	Now, I just want to touch on that briefly.
	Well, the lady gave me the standard, you know, we had paradise and then we had free will and then they took the big bite of the apple and then we were tossed out and all that.
	Right now, oddly enough... Seems like an insidious plan for mankind, if you ask me.
	Yeah, great, great cue.
	My thoughts sometimes get scattered.
	The thing is, as far as making a point there, I'd have to say that God being, let's assume for a moment here, whether he be the God of the Bible or this or the Koran or what have you, a perfect God, a holy God, creating something Speaking into existence, according to some teachings, he would have to, in order to get a creature that wasn't, if you will, pre-programmed, like his creations in heaven, that haven't faced this yin and this yang, haven't faced a choice, and they're kind of automated in his presence, to get a being that has a free will,
	There has to be the ying to the yang.
	As it's told, Lucifer was one of the highest angels.
	Well, we certainly have the yang and the yang.
	No question about that.
	Listen, we've got a break here at the bottom of the hour.
	I don't know.
	I just don't get it, and I've never gotten it.
	And maybe it's my lot never to get it.
	It's morning, but still of the same day we sing.
	This is Premiere Networks.
	That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
	I'm just beginning to see Now I'm on my way It doesn't matter to me Chasing the clouds away Something calls to me.
	The tree...
	By the sea...
	All the fools around the sheep...
	I can't help falling in love with you...
	Shall I stay?
	Would it be a sin?
	I can't help falling in love with you...
	And let me love you...
	Just like you did to me...
	Now, we take you back to the past...
	On Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
	You ever wonder about NDEs?
	In other words, maybe that's all we have, and that really is all we have, are NDEs, near-death experiences, some closer than others, but never the complete thing.
	In other words, nobody yet has come back from serious death.
	Let's say, Six to twelve hours or more.
	Dead.
	Cold.
	No vitals.
	The whole thing.
	Really dead.
	Nobody yet has ever come back from that.
	Not a one.
	When we have the first, that's sure gonna be worth a listen.
	In the meantime, what we've got is the close stuff.
	And that varies in degree from those who actually have had vital signs completely cease.
	To those who have had some sort of spiritual experience, or maybe something induced by a fever, or food poisoning, or any one of a million different things that would be lesser than all vital signs gone.
	They do seem to have something all in common though, don't they?
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM, from May 21st, 2001.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air, hello.
	Well, hello, Art.
	I finally got through.
	This is wonderful.
	This is Dr. Patricia McGill.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	How are you doing?
	I'm doing great.
	You know, I've been on your show six times with Jeff Long.
	Yes, indeed.
	Yes, indeed.
	I've been trying to get through for hours.
	I've got two really important things to say, so I'm hoping that it's okay if I get those out real fast.
	Go.
	Okay, here's the deal.
	I've got something from Sarah to tell you.
	And then I also have... Okay, if you have a radio in the background, turn it off, please.
	Okay, it's off.
	I'm in another room altogether, actually.
	Okay.
	Okay?
	I'm going to shut the door, though.
	That'll make sure it's off.
	Okay, one thing is from Sarah.
	Let me tell you really fast, and then I've got something to tell you about a haunting, okay?
	Sure.
	Well, first of all, Sarah, after her experience, I decided to get two independent uh... past life regression to work on her to see if there's
	anything that we we could come up with
	we found out that she had a past life as a tibetan monk and she would be headed at a young age like about twenty
	and that could account for why she had what's considered to be a tibetan experience with the uh...
	monsters that were flaming Yeah, nobody really put that together until after she was on the air, and then everybody put it together.
	And then everybody put it together, and the past-life regression proved it.
	Two independent people.
	Now, I could have done her, but I didn't want to do a past-life regression and then have other people say, well, you had an ulterior motive for coming up with that.
	Well, they would say that, of course.
	Yeah, and so two people who didn't know her story.
	Okay, she's listening, so I hope I present everything correctly.
	Then the next thing is, she was always just an observer.
	She was never sent to hell.
	She floated out of the cloud-like tunnel.
	I just talked to her yesterday, and she said there was a hole in the tunnel, and instead of going totally towards the light, she took a detour, went through one hole, and it was that first form of hell.
	Then she floated out of there, and she got the impression, and she confirmed it again That anybody could have left any time they wanted to if they would just look toward the light.
	She said that, yes.
	She did.
	And then the second form of hell was that jury... Excuse me, with a clear implication that those people were keeping themselves there.
	That's right, by their own mindset.
	That's right.
	That plays into the next thing I want to tell you, too.
	I have developed a way, believe it or not, to reliably induce And after she had a nice chat with her mother, which instantly resolved all her grief issues, another entity came through her, appeared before her, and she became very cold and turned kind of blue and started shivering.
	I had to go get her a blanket.
	But this entity was in that second form of hell, which was the dreary one, where they're very isolated and they keep reliving some of their past experiences that they consider to be, you know, unforgivable.
	So what happened was this entity came through her and we weren't trying to get this entity through.
	I mean, this was a shock to both of us.
	But this entity told me that he had murdered, uh, killed himself.
	Suicide?
	Mm-hmm.
	And he gave me the date.
	He told me he, that he wanted me to contact his girlfriend because when he killed himself, he blamed her and wrote her a long letter.
	And then he stabbed himself, which I think is kind of a bizarre way to die.
	Boy, it is.
	It is.
	But he stabbed himself in the stomach of all things.
	He gave me all kinds of, and even provided me with the phone number for this girlfriend to call, for me to call her.
	And so I did.
	And the person I reached said, oh, she moved a couple months ago.
	So I'm not sure if I could ever track her down, but it did prove that she at one time lived there.
	And I don't think the subject was faking it, because like I said, she turned blue.
	She was shattering.
	This ghost, if you will, the suicide, said that he was in a kind of a landscape which was featureless.
	That's a good question.
	and everybody kind of walked around totally feeling isolated and depressed and they were
	unaware of anybody else around them.
	So this fit that second view of hell that she had where also people could leave if they
	wanted to.
	All he had to do was just ask for some help.
	Doctor, how do you define an NDE?
	A near-death experience, that's a good question.
	There's lots of different definitions, but Jeff and I worked on this one and that is
	it's a situation where you basically travel to the other side through whatever event that
	caused it such as a death type of situation.
	Does there have to be, in your opinion, clinical death?
	No, I don't think so.
	I don't think so.
	I think that people can regularly go to the other side during their sleep in an OBE situation.
	And by the way, Jeff and I have an OBE website for anybody who wants to check that out.
	Well, we have a link to it.
	What was your take on the Cougar NDE?
	I have to agree with you.
	I was rather disappointed.
	I thought it was anti-climactic.
	I wrote Jeff a six page email and sent it off to him.
	He moved and got a better job offer so he left Vegas.
	I was kind of disappointed because I thought the whole thing might have come out of his
	own mindset of what he expected to see and therefore it played out in a hallucination
	possibly brought on by his fever or like you hinted earlier it could have been some peyote
	something.
	Sure.
	And you remember one time you said, Art, that you had a hallucination from a month, what is it, days and days, hours and hours of being without sleep?
	I went 116 hours and 15 minutes without sleep.
	And you said the hallucinations were just as real as anything you ever As real as what I'm doing right now.
	As real as anything you've ever experienced.
	Absolutely.
	I think that's what may have happened to him.
	I think that's the situation.
	You see what I'm saying is, how do we not apply that to all NDEs?
	Why should we not necessarily?
	All we have is our near-death experiences.
	Even when we have so-called clinical death, all we have Is something that almost happened.
	We don't yet have anybody who's actually come back from dead dead.
	Oh shoot, I'm trying to turn that off.
	Leave it off please.
	Oh yeah, I've got it off as far as it'll go.
	Alright, all we've got is people who have come close.
	We don't have anybody yet who really has been dead dead dead.
	Yes we have.
	Don't you remember, somebody asked me this when I was on your show.
	There is a guy by the name of George Redonia.
	Who was a Russian gentleman who was trying to get out of Russia.
	The KGB didn't want him to leave.
	They ran him over.
	He was in the morgue for three days.
	Literally in the morgue.
	He didn't come back to the body until they started to do an autopsy on him.
	And when they started to do the the body art autopsy that's when he came to
	probably said, ouch!
	three days and he was, yeah, that was an ouch experience, I'll tell
	you that and then it changed his whole life, he was a
	total atheist but how do we know though, how do we know
	that he was not in some sort of comatose state that they took to
	be death
	Well, when you're put in the freezer for three days, think about it.
	I mean, how many people live through that?
	Three days of being in the freezer?
	Nobody, I thought.
	I didn't think anybody.
	And you know, of course, Danny had no heartbeat, no respiratory.
	So I think that's kind of untrue what you said.
	I think that there have been people who are really, really dead, dead, you know?
	But there's just this slim thread, which some people call the silver cord.
	Which hasn't been severed yet, and as such, they can come back.
	Well, I will absolutely buy that as a possibility, and that's why I keep listening to these.
	Yeah.
	Because I want to know.
	But you know, my impressions of hell, really, are that they're all self-created manifestations of that particular person's personality.
	Maybe.
	There are evil people in the world.
	Evil exists.
	Negative influences.
	Starting at childhood can create people who can either rise above them and go on, or there's people who buy into the negativity and they just are negative in life and they're negative after they die.
	They don't necessarily change.
	By the way, that suicide that hung around, I had to have an exorcism on him to get him to leave.
	Essentially, I brought in two psychic friends who both saw him.
	I couldn't see him, but they could.
	We told him to go to the light.
	He said that he wasn't worthy of going to the light.
	He felt like he had done something terrible and he needed to figure out a way to make that right.
	Well, I'm with you.
	Determine our own destiny and if we put ourselves in a hellish place, we keep ourselves there.
	That's right.
	I would tend to agree with you.
	Until a person really realizes their own true nature, their own God self.
	If they just could connect with that, if they have spirit guides that work to come down and convince them of that.
	See, it's always free will, even in hell.
	The hell that they create for themselves.
	Right.
	It's a mindset.
	That's right.
	You know, if you talk to James Von Prague and all these other people who have actually dealt quite a lot with the other side, they all say that there is no real hell.
	What it is, it's a mind projection.
	And we put ourselves there because we feel we need to be there.
	All right.
	Well, listen, thank you for calling, and we'll have you on the air again sometime soon.
	You know, as soon as I get 100%, I'll be there.
	But right now, I'm only hitting 98% success on these induced... Yes, I've heard what you've been working on.
	Yeah, okay.
	Well, I'd love to be on.
	Let me get 100% and then I'll be definitely there.
	Alright.
	Alright, thanks.
	Thank you and good night.
	I tend to agree with that assessment, that if there is a hereafter, that we generally determine our own fate.
	And that if we go to a hellish or negative place, that we are keeping ourselves there.
	That we literally determine our own fate.
	That we become our... that judgment is not so much from God as it is from our own... from ourself.
	Things that we either can forgive ourselves for or cannot forgive ourselves for.
	Random thoughts.
	A wild card line?
	You're on the air, hello!
	How are you doing, Art Bell?
	Okay, sir.
	I'm phoning from Armstrong, B.C.
	My name is Paul, and I'm listening to Como in Seattle.
	1,000.
	Yep, and I'm in the beautiful Okanogan Valley here.
	Yes, sir.
	How are you doing?
	The one thing you were saying about the Christians there, that's... I know a Christian, eh?
	She's... I don't know.
	I ask her questions about the stuff that Richard Hoagland always talks about.
	Why would you ask her about Richard Hoagland stuff?
	Oh, the stuff on Mars and all that kind of stuff?
	Oh, you mean whether it would disturb her?
	Well, she thinks that that stuff... Here's a good question.
	This is so funny.
	She thinks that the government put that stuff up there.
	She does?
	Yeah, that's what she thinks.
	And she's an Orthodox Christian, that's what she is.
	And what do you think of that?
	Why does she think the government would do that?
	I do not know, Art.
	I don't know.
	It is.
	I don't know.
	I just laugh at her.
	She's a real nice person, but I don't know.
	Well, you ought not laugh at her.
	I appreciate your call.
	What she's doing is she's embracing the concept that there may be those kind of artifacts on Mars.
	And in her world as a Christian, the only way she can explain it and keep her faith is to suggest something like that.
	Oh, the government put it there, or whatever.
	And in that way, there's no challenge at all to her faith.
	And so now you see why the Brookings Report is probably still as true today as it was the day it was written.
	I believe.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Good morning, Art.
	How are you?
	Okay, sir.
	This is Dale calling from Texas.
	Yes, Dale.
	There's been a lot of talk with you guys about the energy crisis in California, right?
	Correct.
	Why can't something be installed on a Los Angeles freeway system that would generate power to some kind of reactor by driving over it?
	Has anybody ever thought of something like that?
	A road that absorbs the energy from the cars that are on it and transfers it into electricity.
	Correct.
	Is that feasible or am I talking off the wall?
	Well, it's off the wall.
	Did I fall out of a tree or what?
	Well, I don't know.
	Only you can tell me that.
	Have you recently fallen out of a tree?
	No, never.
	Well, I'm not sure how that energy transferal would take place.
	Yes.
	Are you?
	Not at all.
	I just, you know, with the cars projecting over a pad or something, I know it would eventually wear out, but could it generate some kind of energy into something that could be... Well, I've heard crazier ideas.
	Well, I wouldn't know.
	All right, sir.
	Thank you.
	I've heard crazier ideas.
	I don't know how it would be done, but Maybe that'll get somebody out there thinking about it.
	Oh, what's for the Rockies?
	You're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, how are you doing today?
	My name's Rick from Paris, California.
	Yes, Rick.
	Yeah, see, I was listening in, and I gotta say that... Turn your radio off, Rick.
	Oh, yes, yes.
	I was on the web there.
	How are we doing now?
	Better.
	Okay, great, great.
	Listen, I've known all manner of people, and some people that I've known have been pretty uh... off
	off the deep end whether they call themselves christians are not but uh...
	i for one have to say that uh...
	the face on mars but bears a striking resemblance of the face on uh...
	shrouded to rin i don't know if you've heard of that i've heard of it you know okay okay
	uh... and uh...
	it just bears a remarkable uh... resemblance and uh... i don't know if
	you uh...
	all too much of that but uh... somebody uh... yes i have I've done quite a number of shows on the Shroud of Turin, and certainly on Facebook.
	The degrees and what them numbers represent.
	And I was also noticing... I was looking at your webpage and noticed some times that were given.
	Like one, I believe it was...
	12621 when you were doing the, uh, something about the witch reversals.
	Oh, you remember that, do you?
	Yeah.
	And, um, and it's just interesting to note how that time, uh, you know, the time, not only that.
	Actually, what it was, I think it was 12621 and that works either forward or in reverse.
	Right.
	Now, now that's really weird.
	Yeah.
	And there's a whole subject to that.
	I know one of the bands that had a number one song for over 10 years running was a Stairway to Heaven song, and the interesting thing... Led Zeppelin.
	Yes, and the interesting thing to note about that was everywhere there was a statement that disagreed with the core principles of what the Bible would have to say on its shell and how things are.
	Every time there was a place that it mentioned You know, like, for instance, the Bible says, hey, in the end, you can't change your road.
	But in the song, it says there's still time to change the road you're on.
	And I played that backwards for myself.
	And there's stuff coming out of those lies, if you will.
	Oh, I've heard that with Led Zeppelin.
	Listen, I'm sorry.
	We're out of time.
	That's all there is.
	See you tomorrow night with a guy who's going to launch himself into space.

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