Art Bell

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April 23, 2001 - Art Bell

02:55:47

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Nanotechnology - Mark Pesce -Richard Hoagland

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52:15

mark pesce

50:15

richard c hoagland

06:29

roger leir

24:32

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you were at war with a nation, how would you use it against another nation?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		You could produce a nanobot that would destroy a very specific type of material.
		Perhaps it would look for explosives and break them down into inert components so that someone's guns wouldn't fire.
		So you could do something as targeted as that, as simple as that.
		And so when you think about a smart bomb, this is in fact the ultimate sort of tininess of a smart bomb in that it can go and diffuse a bomb.
		Or you could take another type of nanobot and have it replicate so that it produced an explosive out of an inert material.
		You could perhaps transform a clay surface into an explosive surface.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What if you wanted to kill only Iraqi people?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Then you probably have to look at something that was very specifically targeted at the genome of a particular class of people.
		That sounds to me like it would be a little bit more difficult to do.
		Or conceivably you could distribute a widespread weapon but only distribute the antidote to your own size.
		If there were a lot of dangers in that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean to the one doing the dispersing?
unidentified		Yes.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Because anytime you release something into the environment, there's obviously the chance that it could mutate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I mean the military is going to be in love with this technology.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		They already are.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		They're funding it.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They are, huh?
unidentified		Oh, yes.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Yes, the funding is coming from DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, the same agency that gave us the internet 30 years ago, and from the federal government and also from universities.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		So you have places like MIT, University of Michigan, University of California, Los Angeles, places like this that are really becoming hotbeds of nanotechnology research and that are really going to be the focal centers for the nanotechnology revolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you were a scientist working in that area, when the U.S. motary came to you, you can imagine what their interests would be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you accept that funding to keep doing what you want to do?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I personally would not.
		I personally would want to focus on the positive applications of nanotechnology.
		The nanotechnology would quickly be capable of wiping out any disease or any sort of malnutrition, that you could take garbage materials, literally throw some nanites or bugs onto the top of this, and then convert it into edible food.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, or conversely, wiping out the human race.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And so I would want to, as far as I could, work on the positive aspects of it.
		And I think that's one reason why the ethical dimension of this technology needs to be examined closely, because it promises so much and threatens so much.
		They're really, in a sense, a perfectly equal balance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, Senator Bell again asks, what precise regulation would you recommend to this committee?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that nanotechnology research needs to be conducted on the same kinds of safeguards that we would do very sort of dangerous biological research, that we need to develop the kinds of facilities that can prevent things from getting into the environment accidentally, or otherwise you're going to have an environment strain scenario where something is created that can't be contained or controlled and will destroy any population in countries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then the equivalent of the CDC should be formed?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Yes, or it may in fact be a branch of the CDC.
		Because again, when you get down to this level, the differences between biology and nanotechnology start to become very indistinct.
		They start to blur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One would imagine many countries about the world would be hard at work at this right now.
		The Japanese, for example, they're really good in these sorts of areas.
		They would be, I would think, involved, are they?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		The Japanese just produced a single atom transistor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there you are.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		So the Japanese are right alongside with the Americans and the Britons.
		The British are also right alongside with the Americans in this field.
		And we're really the three powers with America by far being in the lead with the most researchers working on this.
		Now, one of the most interesting things that's being done long term, one of the longest projects that's been going on, has been NASA's project to use nanotechnology for space exploration.
		The reason being that right now, spacecraft are very large, and when they're very large, it means it costs a lot of money to put them into orbit, to send them to another planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure does.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		And when you only have one of them, if it happens to crash, you're out of luck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		So instead, why don't you produce 50 or 100 million small craft, deliver them in a small missile, release them, say, onto the surface of Mars, let them gather their data and send it back.
		And so this is now a very efficient way of doing it.
		Because even if you lose half the spacecraft, you still have 50 million spacecraft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well then, wait a minute here, Mark.
		If you're talking about Mars and releasing something on Mars, then why not release some form of the gray goo scenario on Mars?
		And why, before you know it, you'll have yourself a habitable planet, hello there, with an atmosphere and water and growing stuff and maybe even little furry things running around.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It's been talked about.
		We don't know how to do something like that yet, but clearly as we grow into a fully realized nanotechnology, something like that will become more and more within the realm of possibility.
		And perhaps in another generation or two, there will be the moral equivalent of an Apollo project to green Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		This is amazing.
		Let's come back to reality, today's reality for a moment.
		Video games.
		Sony's new PlayStation 2.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I guess Microsoft's Xbox?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's what it's called.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It's going to be released in October.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They have made such a jump.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do they begin to blur the line between reality and simulation?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, back when people were first working in virtual reality, so in the late 80s, early 90s, it was believed that you could create realistic images if you could create about 80 million little units that your eyes can see per second.
		If you could create these 80 million units, they figured it would be pretty much indistinguishable from a real thing.
		Well, with the PlayStation 2 and with the Xbox, we've gotten to that point.
		And if you've seen some of the things that have come out, some of the NFL games, some of the racing games, quite often when you look at them, you have to do a double take.
		Because you can't quite tell if it's a video image or if that's a computer-generated image.
		So we're now starting to enter this area of blurriness, whether we can tell if it's a computer-generated image or if it's in fact a live image of some sort.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what are we liable to have by the time we get to Sony PlayStation 10 or 20?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's another way of asking, where is that going?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, right now, computer graphics and the kind that we use in, say, home video games, are increasing not as fast as Moore's Law.
		They're not getting twice as good every 18 months.
		They're getting eight times as good.
		Really, every 18 months.
		It's Moore's Law Cubed.
		So between 1995 and 2000, computer graphics got 1,000 times better.
		Between 2000 and 2005, everyone expects that they will get 1,000 times better again.
		So you don't have to wait for the PlayStation 10.
		You have to wait for the PlayStation 3, which Sony has already announced will be 1,000 times faster than the PlayStation 2.
unidentified		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		At that point, there really won't be any strict difference between live video and a computer-generated image, at least none that your eye can easily see.
		I've seen a prototype for the PlayStation 3, something called the GS Cube, which is still itself only about a 16th as powerful as the PlayStation 3 will be.
		And it was just absolutely stunning.
		The images were so clear, so beautiful, so crisp, and so realistic that you can clearly see that by the time 2005 comes around, we will be there.
		We will be at this blurring between real imagery and computer-generated imagery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how far of a leap is it from PlayStation 3 or 4 to the Holodeck on Star Trek?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		The Holodeck is really just a matter of how do we project it.
		Right now, that's been a big problem.
		We have television sets, we have monitors, we have flat panel displays, but we don't have an environment we can stand up and walk around in yet.
		We had the head-mounted display, which everyone was looking at 10 years ago as being the way we get into the holodeck.
		Well, it turns out the head-mounted display is really bad for your eyes, which is why we're not all wearing them now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've seen them advertised, and I've been tempted, and I don't know why I haven't gone for one, but it's not so good for your eyes, huh?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It'll give you, at the minimum, it'll give you a headache, it'll give you eye strain.
		In the worst case, it'll cause something called binocular dysphoria.
		Because what happens is when you put the head mount on, your eyes are seeing the world in a different way than you see it in the real world.
		And your brain learns that way so that when you take the head mount off again, your brain is still thinking in the way it was when you were in the head mounted display.
		And this is not such a big problem for adults.
		Adults will come back anywhere between 20 minutes and 24 hours.
		But for children, and these video game companies were going to release these and sell them to children, could actually cause perhaps permanent changes in brain function.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, their little brains, which are just in the formative stages, would or could perhaps take that as the reality and then the real world would be the non-reality for them.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Exactly, and they would have trouble moving through the real world because their brains had adapted to something that wasn't real.
		In the mid-1990s, I participated in my project with Sega, the video game company, developing a head-mounted display.
		And we got it all the way through the design process and ready for production, and they sent it out for testing.
		And when they sent it out for testing, the testing company came back and said, you cannot give these devices to children.
		Well, Sega said, thank you very much.
		We're going to take the results.
		We're going to take the project.
		We're going to bury it.
		Company that actually did the testing, SRI, went and retested on their own dimes so they could release the results to the public because the results were important enough that they needed to be widely known.
		So head-mounted display use is fine for, say, 20 minutes or less.
		It won't really hurt you, although I wouldn't give it to a child for that length of time.
		But in terms of this holodeck world where we'd be sitting inside of our head-mounted display and the world would be projected around us, that doesn't seem to be a good way to do it.
		Now there's just some breaking technology of people who are starting to do holographic projection inside of 3D globes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excuse me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Inside 3D globes.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		So you can think of a clear glass globe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		And they can project a 3D environment inside of it.
		You look into it almost as if you're looking into a crystal ball.
		And you can see a world inside of that.
		That technology has just entered the prototype stage.
		They've just gotten it working.
		But that may be one way of having a holodeck.
		Now, clearly, you're not inside that environment, but you can see into it, and it's fully 3D.
		You don't need to wear any fancy glasses.
		It's just there in front of you.
		And that may be one direction it's going in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Suppose we made it all the way to Holodeck, where you create a complete new reality all about you.
		You don't have the glasses on.
		It's all about you in 3D.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That presumably will be possible one day, right?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I would suggest that a better way to do that, rather than using a projection technology, is to use nanotechnology.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Remember what I said earlier?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To actually create that world.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Create the objects themselves out of material.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ay, yeah, yeah.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I think that's going to be the cheaper, safer, more satisfying route for people, is to have a holodeck that doesn't use objects made out of light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, but the problem with that is you are then literally creating an alternate reality because it is a reality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so, but we're almost up to the matrix here in a way.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		I think there's going to be a point 20 years from now or so when the difference between the synthetic world and the physical world is going to have blurred completely.
		Now for the kids who are growing up with these kinds of video games, they're not going to have an issue with it.
		They've been used to it all of their lives.
		For us, it's going to be a little bit more disorienting because we're never going to know what really real is.
		It's going to make a difference for us, but wouldn't it make a difference?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wouldn't that be fatally dangerous for mankind in the sense that people would be able to create their own realities, and in every sense of the word, reality, an alternate reality, and to hell with this world in every way?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just why not live in this idyllic created reality?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It would be a fatal flaw if it cut us off from other human beings.
		Otherwise, it wouldn't be qualitatively different than the worlds we see showing up in cyberspace, the chat environments, the websites, the webs of connectivity by which humans create their own mental spaces and gather and congregate.
		It would simply be a physical manifestation of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but I mean, people would be creating Britney Spearsland, right?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Indeed, they would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how do you stop a human being from preferring that over the real world?
		Hold that answer.
		Hold that answer.
		We'll be right back.
		Weird stuff.
		I'm Markel.
unidentified		I'm Markel.
		Every night when I hope and pray, a dream lover will come my way.
		A girl will hold in my arms.
		You know the magic of her darling.
		But I won't be girl in my home, my dream.
		I don't have to be alone Be alone Be alone Where are you with love so true?
		And the hands that I can hold, getting near as I go.
		'Cause I want these girls to call my own.
		I wanna dream of a girl I don't have to dream alone.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Well, call our bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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		And to reach out on the full-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with ourselves on the Premier Radio Networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, why not?
		If it's nanotechnology, and we'll ask about this in a moment, why not?
		Shouldn't that alternate reality contain your dream lover?
		And then, is that your real mate, or is that your fantasy mate?
		The End Well, Kevin in Yarmouth, Maine, way up in Maine, says it a little more bluntly than I would have.
		He says, will nanotech be the future drug abuse?
		I want a Raquel Welsh nano-doll.
		You think internet porno is bad now?
		Just wait till nano porno comes along.
		Mark, is there any reason to believe that an alternate reality that you could eventually create with nanotechnology couldn't contain your mate?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's no fundamental reason to believe that.
		No, I think you're absolutely right.
		I think one of the promises, if you could call it that, of nanotechnology is that it's going to blur the line for most people between the fantasy world and the real world, that that line isn't going to be as firm, as fixed, as neatly constructed as we are familiar with in the early 21st century.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We may really look back on these as the good old days.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Or as the real old days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The real old days.
		Yeah, that's right.
		Oh, man.
		It's hard to imagine the kind of world you're talking about.
		And yet, you're not the only expert, Mark, who said the things you're saying.
		You're articulating them, I think, a little more clearly and directly for me.
		Thank you for that, by the way.
		But there have been many experts who have said the same things you're saying.
		And I don't know.
		I don't know if it's the kind of world that I could accept.
		How about you?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's going to be for us, for the folks who grew up in the static world, the old world almost.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The old world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It's going to be a little bit disorienting for us.
		It's almost as if you think about how people adopt technology, younger people always use an ATM.
		Older people tend to go to see the teller.
unidentified		That's right.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		So it's almost like that.
		We may want this corner of our lives to have the kinds of benefits of nanotechnology.
		For example, life extension technologies.
		We'll clearly be taking full advantage of that sort of thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about his comment from Maine about the equivalent of drug abuse?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that there's a more direct equivalent of drug abuse, which is that we could probably engineer nanocytes that would directly stimulate centers of the brain.
		So you're not even talking about formulating a Raquel-Wellstahl.
		You're talking about generating what you would think of as probably a superheroin and be able to tie someone into that.
		And so there's a potential for abuse there.
		That's also enormous.
		And the question is whether these technologies will exist only in the pharmacological laboratories or whether they'll be relatively widespread.
		Every indication is that nanotechnology doesn't really require an expensive, huge environment to create.
		The basic tools of nanotechnology are relatively inexpensive.
		Less expensive than, say, a gene splicing laboratory.
		And as the techniques are discovered, those are going to be the things that will allow someone to do nanotechnology, say, in their den.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that the present state of social evolution in the world would support that technology being available right now, or would it, in essence, destroy the human race?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If we had all that ability right now, we'd probably do ourselves in, wouldn't we?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I think we'd have to be very careful.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I think we'd get wise very quick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, or get gone.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Or get gone, or get gone very quick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, I guess I want to ask this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is social development, in your opinion, moving in parallel with nanotechnological developments?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I think for our children it definitely is.
		Our children are used to all of this blurriness, all of this in-betweenness, between animate and inanimate, between static and active, between real and virtual.
		These are a matter of course for them.
		They really won't have the same sort of philosophical issues that we as grown-ups have.
		Now, whether that's going to be the thing that guides them safely into a nanotechnological era is anyone's guess.
		I think the most important thing we can do with our children is to educate them about the responsibilities that are inherent in any technology.
		Do you think about the trouble we have with guns today?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, do you think, for example, that a child of the future, say the next generation, because you're talking about 20 or 30 years or 40 years, not that long.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Not that long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That that child will be able to easily make a decision about whether to turn little conscious Freddy off and that it's not killing and that the child will have come to grips with the fact that even though this is a conscious entity capable of emotions and feeling and learning and all those things,
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that that child will be able to just flip the switch understanding that it's somehow different?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's interesting because the Furby itself does not have an off-switch.
		One of the most interesting things about a Furby, one of the things that tends to drive adults crazy about it, is that there is no switch.
		You can take the batteries out if you want, but otherwise the Furby itself has to go to sleep on its own.
		You basically have to give it a timeout.
		And then it will snore and go to sleep.
		So in that sense, these kids are already being prepared philosophically, psychologically, for objects that have their own intent.
		You wouldn't turn Billy off.
		You might stop playing with Billy.
		He might whine about it a little bit.
		And then he'll go to sleep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if you didn't want Billy anymore at all.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Then you're talking about a different kind of problem.
		You're absolutely right.
		You're talking about what a child does when he doesn't want a pet anymore.
		It's that kind of plain emotional.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you can already see what happens in some cases when children decide they don't want their schoolmates anymore.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Right, exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, things are changing and pretty fast, too.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		I mean, we have to take a look at our society's reaction to violence and the kinds of tools we use to create violence, whether they're guns or anything else.
		We have to say, okay, if we know that a child can walk in with a gun and, God forbid, kill several people, well, what can they do if they can cook something up in their living room and wipe out a city?
		That's the world of the mid-21st century.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's going to be some world, isn't it, Mark?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's so close.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It's close, and it's a beautiful place because of the powers that we gain.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		They're almost godlike powers that we gain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Godlike, yes, I was going to say that.
		Godlike.
		Creation.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Creation, almost.
		But at the same time, we have the same destructive powers that you would associate with a very sort of Old Testament God.
		And unless we can temper that with our humanity, with our desire to continue, not just individually, but as a species, you're absolutely right.
		We can't make it through a transition like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This discovery could then be more potentially dangerous to humankind than the splitting of the atom was.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's been my firm belief that this is absolutely the case.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		The thing about the atom bomb is that it's very difficult to gather the materials necessary to make one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And in the case of nanotechnology.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Everything's lying around.
		It's just a matter of putting it into the correct organization.
		And that's what we're learning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how many different centers and places right now around the U.S., around the world, are in serious development in these areas?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, how widespread is the technological research?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		In America, certainly any major materials science program at a major American university has some unit that's looking into nanotechnology.
		So you think about the major research centers, Harvard, MIT, University of California, University of Michigan, University of North Carolina, all of these centers have programs that are looking into these issues right now.
		But in addition, you also see the high-tech firms, IBM, for example.
		One of the things that IBM did back in 1981 was create something called the scanning tunneling microscope.
		The scanning tunneling microscope is very simple.
		It's really nothing more than a very, very sharp pin with a weak electrical charge on it.
		But it turns out that with that pin, you can move individual atoms around.
		Now, the fellows who invented this in 1981 won the Nobel Prize just five years later for their work because their work was so significant.
		Because it allowed us to start pushing atoms around.
		And it's now become, in a sense, the basic building block for all nanotechnology applications because we now have a finger that we can poke into the atomic world.
		And so you have research centers like IBM, like Chulik, Packard, like Intel, and they need nanotechnology in order to stay ahead of the curve, in order to be able to provide us the next level of chips that we're going to need for the computers that we're going to need to do the things we're going to need in the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, your website is called FAIFL World.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Obviously, you're an optimist about the technology for the most part.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I believe that the most important thing is to make people aware and to educate them about the possibilities, both the upside and the downside.
		I'm very straightforward about talking about Grey Goo.
		Most of the nanotechnology community tries to downplay that scenario.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do these researchers, Mark, talk about the Grey goo scenario a lot privately.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Privately, they'll talk about it.
		Publicly, they don't want to alarm the public.
		They don't want to alarm the public to the degree that will scare them from looking at this research because everyone's fairly convinced of its inevitability.
		And so what they want to do is to keep the public informed.
		So they phrased it differently.
		They talk about different kinds of problems.
		One is called the toner war, where you basically have different types of nanobots fighting it out in the environment, replicating and fighting it out.
		Almost a war between two colonies of bacteria fighting for control.
		And the problem with that is that it can cloud the atmosphere with so much dust that it could clog our lungs.
		And so it might not wipe out the earth, but it could easily wipe out the human race.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, to us, same thing.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No difference.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, there would still be an earth going on.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		There would still be a chance for another emergence of evolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there are a lot of people who suggest, here I am trying to be positive, that events of this magnitude are what will cause evolution to take the next major jump.
		You know, that things like this that come along, big rocks that hit the planet, suns that sterilize planets, that sort of thing.
		And then from the ashes, you know, will arise the next generation of intelligence.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It's possible, it's also possible that we will learn enough in the investigation that we will be able to mature ourselves sufficiently.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what do we do then about the mad scientist in the little lab somewhere in Switzerland who decides to become the grey goo god and to take the earth to the next level?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, even though everybody on it right now is going to more or less go belly up.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that in the same way that we developed antivirus software after viral infections, we need to be thinking of developing anti-nanite software while we're developing nanites.
		If we have the capacity to create Grey Goo, then we have the capacity to create something that could stop Grey Goo.
		They go together.
		They really do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how long did you say it would take Grey Goo to do its thing if released?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It's believed to be about 72 hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		72 hours.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It's sufficiently small enough that it can be caught up in the air currents and travel the air.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Yes, the Norton anti-nanotechnology utilities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if you were to actually see the release of this gray goo, what would the eye see?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you could see the release and it were released, I don't know, five or ten miles from you and you had a pair of binoculars, what would you see?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		You'd probably see things melt.
		It would just look like things were melting.
		And there would be probably an energy release.
		It would probably be hot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean kind of like somebody was taking a big paintbrush the size of Earth and just beginning to move it across the surface of the Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And as it went, everything that was turned gray.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Or rather, almost that the buildings themselves would start to cave in.
		The biological beings, ourselves, the animals would simply fall down and slowly sort of decompose into this gray goo.
		I'm not sure how fast, how rapid that would be because part of the sort of break on a gray goo scenario is that there's an enormous amount of energy released when you break all those chemical bonds.
		And so there's a fine balance between the number of times that you can break a chemical bond and the amount of heat that can be sustained.
unidentified		So it would be slow and hot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then finally, fast and hot, right?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Finally, as it covered the entire Earth's surface, it would just be hot.
		It would still have the same relative rate of progression everywhere you looked, but there would be more and more spots where it would be proceeding.
		So it might start out in one location.
		And frankly, people who have thought about this think that if there's ever a breakout in a location like that and there's time to contain it, the only way to contain it is to drop a nuclear weapon on the site immediately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A nuclear weapon?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Because it's the only way you could actually destroy nanites before they spread irreversibly into the environment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And a nuclear weapon would be, what, hot enough?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		It would break the chemical bonds.
		It would just vaporize any nanites in the environment.
		And you'd have to hope, I mean, you'd do that and cross your fingers and pray that you did it in time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's almost unimaginable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unimaginable.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		And yet it's almost here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When will we see the first examples of, you know, I have a lot of people talk about free energy all the time, and I say, give me a toy.
		At least just a little toy.
		Prove to me you've got an over-unity device.
		A little toy will do.
		And I never get one.
		When might we see the first little nanotechnological toy?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Probably within about five to seven years, you're going to see artificial blood.
		Artificial blood is a small sphere that's made out of diamond.
		One of the things that we'll get as sort of low-hanging fruit from nanotechnology is very inexpensive sheets of diamond because it's simply a regular lattice of carbon atoms.
		If you can make that into a sphere, fill it with very high-pressure oxygen, and then have a small motor on it that sputs out the oxygen at a regular level, you can use that as artificial blood.
		Wow.
		Now that there's already a design for.
		So now it's a matter of the fabrication process involved in the design.
		There is a startup in Texas called Zyvex.
		There's a link to it on the Playful World site.
		And they're a nanotechnology startup.
		And so they are working now on the applications of nanotechnology.
		I think the real threshold isn't going to be these sorts of devices, but what is called the nano-computer.
		So a computer built out of atomic level elements.
		This computer that would be a million, million times faster than any computer we have today and a thousand times smaller than a human cell.
		The experts in the field, people like Ralph Merkel, who's one of the fathers of nanotechnology, expect that by around 2011 or 2012, the elements will be in place to create a nanocomputer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's really soon.
		It's really soon.
		2012, 2012.
		That's really soon.
		So, again, I'll ask you one more time.
		Do you think that socially we're going to be able to keep up with the technological advances?
		Because socially, we're going to have to, or it definitely will do us in.
		We've got to make some pretty dramatic social advances.
		And as you look around the planet right now, do you see those occurring at a rate that pleases you when you look at what's happening with nanotechnology?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I don't think it's nearly as fast as I would like it.
		Whether it's fast enough, I can't say.
		I think that we need to be able to think almost as if it were magically, that we need to be able to think about the fact that the actions, the consequences of our actions can have a nearly magical effect, that we could almost cast a spell with atoms and either wipe out the earth or cure someone of cancer.
		And we have to understand that there's an individual responsibility there and a social responsibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, on a scale of 10, how are we doing in the area of individual responsibility right now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that your answer?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, who wants to be an antech millionaire?
		I think that as a culture, we're coming to an understanding of the problem of violence.
		I think that's one reason why we find violence as abhorrent as we do.
		It's because there is a cultural understanding of the nature of violence, of the problem of violence, of what happens when you take an instrument of destruction, a gun, and put it in someone's hand.
		And I think that that's the first step to this broader understanding of what this complete violence of nanotechnology could release.
		So I'm optimistic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was a good answer.
		I mean, that was a safe answer.
		I wish I believed, as you do.
		Well, we may understand.
		I don't even know that we understand more about violence.
		Well, I guess we've been good.
		We haven't had a big world war in a while.
		But the micro scale, not macro, but micro scale on Earth right now isn't too good.
		There's a lot of killing going on out there.
		A lot of violence.
		And in this nanotechnological world you're talking about, it wouldn't take but a few bad apples to ruin the whole bunch.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Right?
		Yes, but I think that at the same time, we will be working, and there will be a vast number of people who will be working on how to defeat that problem, how to bring it to a stalemate.
		So I think that at the same time that you see Grey Goo, you will see 100,000 solutions to that problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		We're going to break here, and when we come back, I want to turn you over to the audience.
		This I can't wait for, all right?
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you stay?
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stay right there then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're next.
unidentified		I'll be real.
		I've been dreaming the queen ready to go to be.
		I've been blue fucking you.
		And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
		I see skies of dreams and clouds of white.
		The End The lights that be tonight.
		Cannot think to myself What a wonderful world Wanna take a ride?
		Call our dell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255 East of the Rockies 1-800-8255033 First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222 The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295 and to call Art on the toll-free international line call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		I must let go.
		There might much more than I will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, that certainly is an understatement, isn't it?
		Remember, what we're talking about right now isn't that hard in the future.
		It's not science fiction.
		It's what your children are about to encounter.
		Okay, we're about to go to phones.
		Joe in Alameda, California, says, hey, Art, how come I find myself not laughing along?
		I know, Joe.
		I understand exactly how you feel, Joe.
		I've been sort of chuckling along because you've got to keep us some sort of sense of humor about these kinds of things, but I'm with you all the way.
		And then I think Jim in Denver asks the question of Mark that we ought to tackle first, then we'll go to the phones.
		It's simple, and it's blunt.
		Mark, he says, Mark, I'm an African-American.
		Does this gentleman truly believe this technology will not be abused?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Will not be what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Abused.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Understand why an African-American might ask that.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I understand why I think anyone would ask that.
		Anyone who's seen the history of the 20th century should really ask, will this technology be abused?
		I think that we have to consider very rationally the possibility that it will be abused and prepare for it on that basis.
		If we don't go in with our eyes wide open, I can paint a very pretty picture with the possibilities, but I can also paint a very ugly one with the downside.
		And I think that we need to keep both of those points of view in our sights at all times as we move into the 21st century.
		If we don't, then yes, the potential for abuse will overcome our ability.
		It will overcome our sense of what to do about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Most Americans, Mark, think of what we're talking about right now as they think of a science fiction movie, you know, something that, while we might imagine, but, you know, isn't really ever going to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The problem with this is it's not science fiction and it's happening already, right?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		You could have said the same thing about cloning just two years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we did.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		We did.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		And now it's likely that a human being is being cloned somewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		And so we now are faced with all of the ethical issues that come from that.
		And we have a little bit more lead time.
		We have at least a good five years, probably a good ten years, before we really have to be able to say, this is how we're going to approach this problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but in terms of observed human social evolution, five or ten years, well, I just don't know, Mark.
		Anyway, listen, we've got a lot of phone calls, and so let us begin.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hey, this is Rob, listening to you in Minneapolis on KSGP 1800.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the way to do it, thank you.
unidentified		Wavelength, and I have a brief comment before I ask Mark a question.
		The seasons are reversed in Minnesota and central Minnesota here.
		It's supposed to be spring, but it's pretty much fall here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We know what's happening all over the nation, not just there.
unidentified		Just a note on the weather changes.
unidentified		We're feeling it up here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's obvious everywhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, do you have a question?
unidentified		My question was, in terms of nanotechnology and, I don't know, using, Mark, you talked about the crystal ball.
		I'm using that to have whatever the experience, like video game type experiences.
		And you talked about the hologram room using nanotechnology.
		How much energy would a hologram room like that use?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a really, really, really good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The energy.
unidentified		Would it be similar to Los Angeles or would it be more like Nintendo or what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, how much power consumption would you imagine being used in something to create eventually a holodeck, let's say?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the advantages of nanotechnology is that it works on such a micro level that you can effectively sort of optimize all of the energy usage.
		And in fact, in nanotechnology, it's important to do that.
		One of the technical stumbling blocks that people are working through now is how you can create something that's working very quickly at such a small level and doesn't burn itself up in the process.
		But if you take a look at biology, human beings are very flexible.
		We move relatively quickly, and all sorts of things from bacteria up to elephants do so.
		And so there's probably a lot of lessons we'll learn from nature about how to effectively use energy in a conservative way.
		Now, a human being uses about as much energy as 120-watt light bulb at any given point in time.
		So if you're thinking about building an environment, you can probably use that as a convenient multiple.
		We're equivalent to 120-watt light bulb in terms of the amount of energy we use.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, at least we're fairly bright.
		Yeah, I have to laugh sometimes.
		East of the Rockies, you're on there with Mark Petcey.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Kathy from Woodwards, New Jersey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Kathy.
unidentified		And, yeah, I wonder if we're the long-lasting light bulbs or the old Phillips.
		Yeah, right.
		Listen, I'm going into the not-so-distant future, and I'm going to ask you something about the future of computers as if they could be the mother and fathers of children born either here because we screwed up, sowing the seeds of life on a new planet, being the guardians on a new planet.
		You get my drift?
		In the future, we may mess up so bad down here that we have to program a computer to literally plant the seeds of life and then nurture them and watch them.
		And I'll end it with this.
		Guys, once in a while, just catch the PBS and watch the teletubbies and tell me why these four little things are watched by a computer and never have any parents around them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's a lot to tackle.
		Mark?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		If we were going to do some sort of Genesis project, I suppose is the best name for it, of replanting a Garden of Eden somewhere else.
		And if there were a computer that we were responsible for bringing human beings into maturity, you would have to be sure that this computer had been raised itself by human beings because there's a human transmission of values that would be necessary from the humans to the computer to the children.
		And if you break that continuity, essentially what you're doing is you're breaking what makes us human.
		And so in that sense, you'd have to make a decision if you were embarking on a project like this whether you wanted those children to be the offspring, the philosophical offspring, the psychological offspring of a purely rational intellect, or whether you really wanted it to be a much broader, more human intellect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wouldn't a purely rational intellect be frightening for humans?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe dangerous for humans?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I think it would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		think that it would be given to making decisions that we would not normally be given to make ethically morally I think that this is the It would have ethics and morals, but it's its own.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It would be its own, and they would be alien to us because they wouldn't be influenced by the concerns that we would normally think of as being human concerns.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it might make decisions that we couldn't possibly understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like, for example, if it were running the justice system right now, it might, the very first time a child is brought in who's been fooling around with marijuana, it might decide to euthanize That child on the spot.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Right, it would be capable of justice, but no mercy.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		And human beings tend to temper all of their justice and all of their actions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With mercy.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		With mercy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But perhaps not most effectively so.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a question of what you're considering effective.
		If you're considering effective in a purely sort of rational frame, then perhaps you're right.
		But human beings, again, don't think in a purely rational frame.
		We think in a much broader frame than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then we better be careful what we create.
		West of the Rockies, you're on there with Mark Pesci.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, this is Jim in LA 640 KFI area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the way I love people doing promos for their radio stations.
		Everybody do it.
		All right, go ahead, sir.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Oh, good to have you back.
		All right.
		And Mark, I was wondering, I was at Disneyland with my wife, well, this is back in the early 70s, and at their, I guess they call it Haunted Castle, where they have these holograms or whatever you call them.
		Yes.
		And on the exit, they had one that was in a bell jar, oh, maybe 20 inches or two foot high with a woman in it.
		And she was in 3D, actual 3D.
		I mean, her arms moving and all this stuff.
		Somehow they projected it in there.
		And I was just wondering, how the heck did they do that anyway?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		That's actually almost like a magician.
		It's all done with mirrors.
		That's a parabolic mirror.
		So it's a curved mirror.
		And the image is projected onto the mirror.
		But because of the way the light reflects back from the mirror, it resolves into an image that's in front of the mirror.
		So it looks as though the image is solid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
unidentified		I'll be daring.
		But I was just curious if they, you know, like they have to have glasses, I guess, for 3D on television.
		Man, if they came out with something like that with the games, holy macro.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, there's a good question.
		What would the movie?
		I guess I think I already know the answer, but what would the movies or the television of tomorrow be in a nanotechnological world?
		I think I know the answer.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that what you're talking about is not typing a program in, but typing a reality in.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		So you're literally out of the cable is coming the instructions to redesign the environment that you're in the midst of around whatever drama is going to take place there, and whether that's a drama that you sit and watch as a member of the audience or you participate in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mark, you know, even with Turn Off Your TV Week underway right now, word is that we watch, on average, about four or five hours of television, you know, the old two-dimensional, yes, nice color, but two-dimensional TV now.
		We watch five hours, Mark, in that future that you're describing, not all that far distance.
		How are you going to ever, I mean, you know, once they've been to Paris and all that, how are you ever going to get them back?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me give you another example.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if you've heard of a new game that's coming out called Majestic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's interesting that you would mention the new game Majestic because I understand that they have woven my name into it somehow.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Majestic was described by the president of Electronic Arts, who is creating the game as a cross between CNN and the X-Files.
		When you sign up for the game, you go onto the web and you give it all of your contact points.
		You give it your phone, your fax, your email, your cell phone, and you give it the hours it can call you and annoy you and involve you in the game and call you and tell you that there's a character that's in jeopardy and you have to go do this thing right now to solve this mystery.
		You have to find the pieces of the vast conspiracy that is swirling around you.
		So already, without the projection technology, we're finding that the next generation of games, this isn't really even a PlayStation game, this is almost a game that starts to confuse the real world with the world of the game.
		So this is now becoming trend.
		It's expected that this game is going to be wildly popular because it really involves you in a world that's right next door and yet it's completely in your living room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't this like the next logical step to fantasy football or baseball or whatever it is that people get so involved in?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, and it will appeal to the people who really love the X-Files or Millennium or shows like this or people who listen to Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, my audience.
		Actually, I heard from the people who were constructing this, whatever you call it, game, Majestic, and they are using my name somewhere in it.
		And I guess I was honored.
		I guess I'm honored.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I think you should be.
		I think it's going to be very interesting.
		And this is, again, the future of entertainment.
		It's not just something that you sit and watch passively, although I think that'll still exist.
		People will still make movies as we think of them, or TV as we think of it, where you sit and watch a drama or a performance or a comedy.
		But there will also be these other more subtle forms of games where you are literally taken in.
		And you use the best virtual reality machine we have, which is between your ears.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But how are people going to break away from this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How will this not be an irresistible narcotic that will make television look like kid stuff?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		500 years ago, Art, all across Europe, theologians, priests, preachers decried a new narcotic that had come out and was destroying the best minds in Europe.
		Do you know what it was?
		The novel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The novel?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		The novel.
		I mean, you take a look at Don Quixote.
		Don Quixote, the plot of Don Quixote is that Don Quixote has read so many romance novels, he's gone mad.
		And he starts to act out on all of these novels that he's read.
		And it was a popular theory in the day that reading all of these books was going to drive you crazy.
		So I think that we see over and over that these new ways of telling stories coming into our lives, and we make room for them.
		The same way we don't think twice when someone says, oh, I was up all night because I was reading a really good book.
		Yet at the same time, you'd have to say, wow, that person is addicted to reading this book.
unidentified		That's how good this book was.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It was a narcotic.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		And I think that's how we'll think about majestic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But taking leaps ahead, not to majestic, but farther ahead, why wouldn't a government which is concerned with productivity, And I'm convinced that's one of the main reasons that we have drug laws right now, Mark, that we do in the drug war and all the rest of it, is because they consider drugs to be a war on productivity.
		Or a threat to productivity, and so that we have the war on drugs.
		Why wouldn't we have the war on nanotechnological entertainment for exactly the same reason, classic, a dangerous narcotic?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that nanotechnology is going to upend the whole argument about productivity because when you can literally fabricate anything that you need on demand, about the only activity of civilization will be the design of those things that can be fabricated on demand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, right, but then what about Zagreb and Evans 2525?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, our arms hanging useless by our side, right?
unidentified		I don't know that our arms will be hanging useless by our side.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I don't think that's the case.
		I just think that the emphasis on what constitutes productivity in the material world is going to move more, I think, into a design sense.
		That what's going to be important are the things that we can design and play with rather than the things that we actually fabricate.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time, CallerLine, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
unidentified		Hello?
		Yeah, I've got a couple questions for Mark.
		Oh, go ahead.
		One is, what would be some good effects of this new nano technology?
		Right.
		And my other is, what kind of benefits will we get for our human society?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think one of the things that nanotechnology can promise us is freedom from want.
		That you can, in fact, go to a place where the population is starving, throw nanites out on the ground, and have them produce food just from raw soil.
		And it wouldn't matter whether there's a drought or whether there's a flood or anything like that, that you can actually remove human need at a fundamental level by using these machines.
		I think the second benefit is going to be in medical technology, that we will be able to both observe the human body in incredible detail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mark, quick question.
		Unless we can make it real expensive, then what would that do to our economy?
		And I mean the world economy, not just ours.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		And that's exactly the point.
		I think that we're going to see this transition away from the value of the material world.
		Right now, money and value are based on scarcity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have wars over this.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Because there are wars of scarcity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have wars over this.
		What do you think we went to war with, almost went to war with Russia over and may yet go to war with China over?
		It's materialism versus the greater common good.
		That's what we go to war about, right?
unidentified		Absolutely.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		But if we've removed the sort of focus of materialism, if we've taken that out of play, then it becomes in a sense a war of creativity.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		And to bring us back to the Grey Goo versus the anti-Grey Goo, the virus versus antivirus scenario, that's a war of creativity, of design, not a war of materiel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that would require an entire shift from an economy based on consumption or materialism.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		On materialism, not on consumption, because we will still be consuming things, but we'll be consuming designs rather than actual products.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be consuming designs.
		That's an interesting concept.
		So then everything we know about money and the way everything is transacted, all of that is going to change, isn't it?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I believe so, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		That's no minor change.
		All right.
		Bottom of the hour, I'm going to try much harder to be good and get to the phones.
		Oh, there goes the international line.
		Don't forget the international line, 800-893-0903.
unidentified		She's got something to put my door.
		And she knows.
		If man is still alive, if woman can survive, they may fall.
		Oh, my God.
		Me 35, 35.
		You're gonna need to tell the truth, tell the lies.
		Everything you think, do, and say is in the field you could do today.
		35, 45.
		You're gonna need to pop the gun.
		You won't find the thing to do.
		Nobody's gonna look at you Indelieve 55, 55 Your arm dangling live past your side Your lady's got nothing to do.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Call Art Bell from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach ART at area code 775-727-1222.
		Or call the Wildcard line at 775-727-1295.
		To talk with ART on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and ask them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, our trip into the world of nanotechnology is not a voluntary ride.
		So perhaps we should rephrase the opening there.
		this is a variety you're on like it or not uh...
		As dramas now, back to Mark Beshe.
		And Mark, anytime I ever bring a guest on here, I just want to give them the opportunity to plug a book or plug whatever they've got going.
		In your case, I know you've got a website.
		Anything else?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, the book, The Playful World, which has been out for six months, it's in cover.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And is it generally available in bookstores?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It should be available in most bookstores nationwide.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It's carried by all the major chains, and you can buy it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble.com if you want to get it online.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where you get deep discounts.
		You do.
		People with computers already have advantages, disproportionate advantages.
		People without them, don't they?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		In general, we're starting to see, I guess, what people are calling a knowledge gap.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		People who have computers, if you think about a child.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it's a money gap, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I can go buy your book for cheap on Amazon, but if I don't have a computer, I've got to go to a bookstore.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and you've got to pay the fullest price.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Same deal with airplane fares.
		You can go get very cheap airplane fares on the web.
		I mean, really cheap compared to what you'll pay at a travel agency.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Although more of this information is starting to migrate now to voice systems on the telephone, so that the web and the telephone over the next years will start to become more and more indistinguishable so that anyone who has access to a telephone will have access to the same kind of rich information and rich discounts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't it rather likely with broadband that when that arrives for most Americans, let's say, that your telephone won't even be going over a phone line anymore?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		That's absolutely right.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		More and more of the phone network is looking like the internet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it sure is.
		All right, here we go.
		On the international line, you're on there with Mark Pesci.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		I'm from Australia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm in Melbourne.
unidentified		Andy here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Melbourne, Australia.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, welcome to the show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have a question?
unidentified		Yeah, well, as you were saying a minute ago, computer people do, in a way, we do have advantages, but we already have problems with bots in IRC kicking us and all sorts of dramas going on left, right and centre with those, Bob.
unidentified		So what I was wanting to know also...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bots in IRC.
		All right, IRC is Internet Chat Relay or Internet Relay Chat or whatever it is.
		Anyway, it's a place where people gather on the Internet and they have what are called bots.
		And these bots keep control of things when humans aren't around.
		You know about those, right, Mark?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, I didn't know whether the audio, a lot of the audience, not computer savvy, wouldn't have known, but the bots are already there on these groups.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Carler.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, well, they're basically ruling us in the Art Bell IRC chat room already.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard that, yes.
unidentified		It can happen.
		It can happen.
		What I would like to know is about if there's software for this nanotechnology, you know, if we're going to have a problem such as a Microsoft software and buggy beta testing and all sorts of drama with it, or if it's chemical or how it works.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, right now, they're thinking to design nano computers not along the lines of computers as we think of them with electrons flowing across silicon surfaces, but in fact they're taking a page out of the very first computers which were built out of mechanical parts.
		You think about an old mechanical adding machine.
		Perhaps people remember these from the 1950s and the 1960s.
		They were wheels and gears.
		And in fact, it seems that the right way to make a nanocomputer is to build it out of these very small components in wheels and gears, wheels of carbon and other elements that would work together in the same way.
		So in a sense, although they're much faster than the computers we see today, they are mechanical.
		Now, as to software testing, we're going to have exactly the same issues with buggy software that we do in the world with our computers today.
		And that perhaps is the biggest problem, because even if we manage to effectively prevent someone from producing something that's toxic with nanotechnology, that doesn't mean that a computer with bad software can't do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then the blue screen of death in the year 2050 might be grey goo.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		The grey goo of death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, geez.
		All right, on the international line, you're on the air.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Oh, I'm calling from Australia again, just like your last call event.
		Yes, sir?
		In Darwin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Darwin, all right.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		My name's Aaron, by the way, and I've got a question going to nanotechnology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Basically, isn't a part of life the struggles we face in order to reach our wants and needs?
unidentified		So isn't creating this instantaneous gratification removing a part of our existence?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, a social question.
		In other words, without the wants and needs that we struggle for today, if these wants and needs are all delivered to us so easily in the future, then what happens to human struggle?
		A good question.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Aaron's making a very good point, Art.
		There's no question that the way we visualize or philosophize about what human ends are, what our purpose is in the world, is going to be radically redefined by a pervasive nanotechnology.
		That you're essentially saying that part of what constitutes human need is just there.
		It's there like the air that you breathe.
		But we also think that if you take a look at the pyramid of needs, as was constructed by Maslow back in the 1930s, breathing is at the very bottom.
		We don't really normally worry about breathing.
		And so in the same way, the other material needs for housing, for food, are going to be, in a sense, subsumed down to that level.
		And so we will focus on the higher end of that, which is creativity, expression, the more artistic pursuits.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doesn't sound like a big world for the blue-collar worker.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you take a look at the whole sort of progression of American culture, American culture over the last 50 years has progressively reduced the role of the blue-collar worker.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but that would eliminate it.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		There's no question that within the generation of a widespread nanotechnology, people would not be fabricating things per se.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		My name is Michael.
unidentified		I'm calling from Norfolk, Virginia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Michael.
unidentified		In your conversation tonight, Mark, with Art, you've done two rather significant things.
		You've made the case for one world government in a more powerful way than it has ever been made on this program and on almost any other program in the United States.
		And that, of course, is something that frightens a lot of religious people, people who believe in the Bible, particularly religious conservatives.
		But the case That you've made is it can't be argued.
		This is something that is inevitable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it can be argued and fought over.
		I mean, that's the reason right there for a war, and you know it.
		Yeah, but let's ask him about that.
		You really have, as the caller points out, made the case for a one-world government, the necessity for it before tackling any kind of technology like this, yes?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I really actually disagree.
		I have the same, I think, very natural qualms about centralization of authority in this kind of system.
		I don't think that's the answer, because I don't think that any centralized state can be so omniscient as to prevent something from happening.
		I think what you need is as much decentralization as possible.
unidentified		Well, let me just make my point about it.
		People have been thinking about this, serious thinkers have been thinking about it for well over 50 years and actually working towards that because they find it as an unavoidable thing.
		The problem is we can't talk about one world government as such, so we talk about free trade.
		But realists in the world today know that we must go in this direction for the dangers that you have pointed out here tonight, and your own arguments argue against you.
		I won't attempt to do it in this short space of time.
		But I would like to make another point.
		Your discussion of technology has also made another very significant point.
		You have made the case for the 3,500-year-old Genesis account of Moses and the Tower of Babel.
		And because you have made this so effectively by saying that, yes, what mankind is doing is actually recreating Genesis in his own time.
		And because you have done this, you have given people who are religious conservatives out there and all kinds of religious people who are normally very paranoid about this thing an opportunity to enter into the discussion, to think more rationally about it, not be knee-jerk in their reaction to the whole idea of one-world government.
		And actually, we can begin now talking about a one-world radio program on the lines of Coast to Coast AM, which will begin introducing the entire world simultaneously to the ideas, opportunities, and problems that we're talking about right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've even got the new name, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From coast to coast to coast to coast to coast to coast to coast.
unidentified		Well, I think instead of looking at 20 million people in the Art Bell audience, we ought to start seriously and realistically talking about a 2 billion person audience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you, my network is working on it, sir.
		I can't reveal any more than that right now, but trust me when I tell you, from coast to coast to coast to coast is closer than you might imagine.
		His first point was an interesting point.
		And how would you make the case, Mark, that the kind of technology you're talking about wouldn't necessitate a single control and a very strong control at that?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		There's a lovely line.
		It's my favorite line in the entire Star Wars trilogy when Princess Leah turns to General Tarkin and says, the more you tighten your grip, the more star systems slip through your fingers.
		When you impose order, escalate chaos.
		And that's probably the worst of all possible situations.
		Yeah, but chaos, I would think, want to have as many different centers working on different problems as possible.
		They may want to be coordinated.
		We can see with the Internet the kinds of loose coordination, or even in the nanotechnology community, the kinds of loose coordination where researchers are aware of each other's work.
		They're trying to engender public discussion, public awareness, public debate.
		I think the idea of having a radio program where people can be educated about these issues is incredibly beneficial.
		It's a thing that should happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
		But I mean, you're such a social optimist, I can't believe it.
		I mean, somehow you see things that just aren't happening today, aren't even trending today, and you're applying them to, you know, this incredible new technology.
		And I don't know.
		I guess the glass is just always half-full for you, huh, Mark?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		You can't say that, Art.
		I definitely have my nightmares.
		I've lived with the ideas of this.
		Part of the reason I'm well-versed in nanotechnology is because I was around when the key people involved in inventing it were actually inventing it.
		This was back at MIT in the very early 1990s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, Mark, as long as we have separate nation-states and rogue nation-states and that difference and that separation, this kind of technology, I mean, begin to apply the probabilities.
		Go crunch the numbers on somebody like Gaddafi getting hold of something like this.
		And as long as the nation-states are all separate, you've got to imagine that as a possibility, then your chaos numbers are really going to get you.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		But in a sense, you haven't even gone far enough.
		It's not rogue nations that we necessarily need to worry about.
		But as you pointed out earlier, the rogue human beings, even if you have one world government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Rogue Harry down the street.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Is that one-world government going to be so powerful and so omniscient that it could keep the chains on every single person?
		I mean, I don't think, A, that anyone wants that, and B, I don't think that's actually possible.
		And so I think we're confronted with the fact that we are what we are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, then that in itself is a social comment.
		We're absolutely stubborn individuals who would never allow anything like that to happen, even though it was on the way.
		And so we'll be then the same stubborn individuals who'll be toying with this new technology.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Who will be toying with all aspects of it, though?
		We'll be toying with the upsides and the downsides.
		And I think that if you can encourage as much breadth, If you have children who understand it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but how many bad days with gray goo do you need?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, it's a question, how many bad days does your body have with bacteria?
unidentified		A lot of them.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		And yet your body manages to survive.
		And I think that if we look toward the natural world, we can see that we can sustain certain types of injuries.
		There might be some that would be a knock-out punch, but most of them our body is prepared for.
		Even for the ones we aren't prepared for, our body learns, adapts, and attacks.
		I think that's the metaphor.
		I think that's the reason why I have this optimism.
		Because we can look to the natural world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'm not doing this enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
unidentified		Hi.
		Good evening, Art.
		This is Chris in Los Angeles.
		Listening to you at 640 KFI AM Radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the way to do it.
unidentified		Okay, let's, you guys have touched the subject that I'd like to get into.
		It's a little bit more on the wild side of this.
		This grey goo matter is pretty terrifying, but let's look at something else.
		What if we could take the nanotechnology, release it into a human body, it goes into our fat cells or sperm cells, whatever, and learns the T cells, and becomes a cell management system that we can control.
		So as we're aging and if there's any heart defects, the nanotechnology reports it, say, to a wristband that we wear and it alerts us and it automatically gets, we give it a signal and approval to go ahead and do the repairs.
		Now we take it a step further.
		Say we want to have available to us programs that we can insert.
		For example, we want to become a cat for an hour.
		We want to play with our cat.
		And we put in the program and the nanos go in and for an hour we can become an animal of our choice.
		Or say we want to become a football player.
		We can increase our size and our mass through the nanotechnology.
		Okay?
		Now to take it a little bit further, say this device we wear becomes an interface to computers or to communicating with other people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Certainly is going to destroy the steroid market.
unidentified		But what about these people who have frozen themselves and they're waiting for the technology to cure their diseases?
		This would probably be the only thing that could be capable of doing, reviving them.
		For a dead person, it would be pretty scary if we could inject it into Einstein's remains and rebuild his body.
		All of a sudden he comes to life.
		What kind of out of body experience would he tell me?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It's funny that you should mention this.
		The first major book on nanotechnology called The Engines of Creation was published in 1986.
		I read a very early draft of it in 1983, and there was an entire chapter which talked about exactly this.
		It was basically debating how much of the remains of someone did you need before you could reanimate them.
		And I mean, I read that chapter.
		I was frightened by it.
		And yet, at the same time, you can see that when the technology is sufficiently advanced, those kinds of applications become very easy.
unidentified		Okay.
		Well, you've got my real spinning.
		I don't know about you guys, but who needs a hologram if he can just become something?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, in other words, if you had enough of a person's just basic DNA, which could come from blood or hair or skin scrapings or whatever, that might be enough information to rebuild a duplicate of that person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A real duplicate, not a clone, but a duplicate, right?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, clearly, if you're talking about the person, the person is a combination of the body.
		It's not just the genes.
		If you're talking about Einstein, I mean, I think they have Einstein's brain in a jar somewhere.
unidentified		They do.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		And so it's conceivable that you could reanimate someone with sufficient remains.
		Again, we think that most of the qualities of the person are kept inside the brain, although there's some argument about where it all is.
		So it wouldn't necessarily be completely faithful, but it would be a reasonable fact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've had other experts on, and they engage in language that the average person simply cannot understand.
		So you articulate this very well.
		Did you do that in your book?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that was really one of the main theses of my book, was to take these ideas that have been, in a sense, locked in the IFRE Towers and put them in terms that everyone can understand, because I look at children's toys and I show how children's toys, like Legos, can be used as a metaphor for understanding what anotechnology is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Legos, huh?
		Legos.
		All right, listen, Mark, we're at a junction point where I always ask my guests, and you know, I can't even, where are you?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Los Angeles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're in L.A. I am.
		All right.
		I always ask my guests right here whether they want to do the final hour or they've done too much and they're ready to rest.
		You don't sound ready to rest.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		No, you've got my wheels turning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they turn pretty quickly at that.
		All right, then hold it right there.
		We'll come back and do another hour.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		In America.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed, only in America.
		Actually, that may not be true.
		wonder what the chinese are doing right now in this area maybe Fortunately for us, they're very socially advanced over there in communist China now.
		We don't really need to worry about what they're doing with this kind of stuff, right?
unidentified		A poor boy like me in America.
		I have a wonderful dimension with a tear in every room.
		All I want to love you from an experience.
		The Hell of Doom.
		But you think I should be happy with your money and your name.
		And I must have been thorough while you say you're a cheating game.
		Silver, red and golden needln and I mend this heart of mine.
		And I dare not drown my soul in the world of wonder why.
		But you think I should be happy with your money and your name.
		And I must have been thorough while you play your cheating game.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Well, call our bell from west to the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		Postline callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
		The white card line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast of Coast AM with ourselves on the Familiar Radio Networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Certainly, as I was listening during the news to a guy, a very nice guy who sells the auric vacuum cleaners that we need today.
		You've got to wonder, in the future, you've got dirt around your house.
		But I don't think you're going to need a great big vacuum cleaner in the nanotechnological world.
unidentified		You're going to just need this little thing, and you release it, and it goes and it eats all the dirt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I mean all the dirt.
		All right, once again, for all my friends overseas, give it a try.
		Take the plunge, whether you're in Europe or Asia or North or South America, wherever you are, save here in the U.S. and Canada.
		Try this.
		Call 800-893-0903 Worldwide.
		We'll pay the bill.
		Doesn't matter where you are.
		China, I don't care.
unidentified		We'll pay the bill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Worst case, get hold of the AT ⁇ T operator and have her dial 800-893-0903.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, back now to my guest, Mark Pesci.
unidentified		Mark?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So hanging in there, huh?
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
		All right.
		Well, lots of people want to talk to you, so here we go.
		West of the Rockies, you're on air with Mark Pesci.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, my name is Ray.
		I'm calling from Mahogan, Utah.
		Listening to you on 570K NRS out of Salt Lake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good for you.
unidentified		Okay, you know, here's the big problem I'm having with all this.
		I can mentally picture it, but there are so many things that bother me about it.
		Okay, I'm a martial arts enthusiast.
		I'm an amateur musician.
		And I'm a student of Zen Buddhism or Chan Buddhism, whichever you want to call it.
		And to me, without the human element of striving, struggling, and aspiring, and I could just say to myself, bang, I'm a master swordsman, or bang, I'm an enlightened Buddhist, or bang, I'm a really good musician.
		It would all be hollow and empty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a lot like another question we had, really.
		Very much like it.
		And it's not an easy answer, is it, Mark?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		No, I think that it's going to displace some of the things that we think of as being worth striving for and replace them with others.
		I think that it's in the human nature to strive, to improve, to get better.
		And the question is, when certain things become easy, for instance, I live in Los Angeles.
		It's a huge city, but it's very easy for me to get across.
		Transportation is not an issue unless I happen to be going around at rush hour.
		And so it's changed what I consider a challenge appropriately to my level of ability.
		So every time our abilities extend, what becomes important, what becomes challenging also changes.
		Now, I don't believe that you'll be able to flick a switch and become the Buddha, because I think that's a spiritual change.
		We're talking about material manifestations of the world.
		We're not talking about the nature of sort of spiritual changes, but I think that one of the things that this could foment, that the nanotechnology revolution could foment, is an examination of what truly is important.
		Once you've satisfied your basic material needs, what then is important?
unidentified		And another thing I did want to mention is that it sounds to me a lot that what we're talking about tonight has been more or less predicted in James Redfield's books, the Tenth Insight and the Celestian Prophecy.
		He mentioned something in one of those books about the possibility of there being such a synergy between humans and machines.
		I think that this is a real, I think that's a core part of it.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		The entire passage of human history from the invention of fire through the present day has been an increasing human ability to work with the material world, to get finer and finer levels of control over it.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		And we're now just in that last half mile, that last sprint before complete control of the material world, which brings with it a whole host of problems and a whole host of opportunities.
unidentified		Indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I appreciate the call, sir.
		I guess I would like to ask about Mr. Oryx, a very nice fellow who sells his Oryk vacuum cleaner that still goes after 25 years.
		I was listening to his little commercial during the news.
		Not everybody might have caught it, but they know what I mean.
		You know, how's Mr. Oryk going to be doing there in another 50 years?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, there has already been proposed what we would call household mannites, which will eat the dust off the floor, and in fact, use the dust off the floor as the thing that keeps them powered.
unidentified		How about chat bars?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		They'd be able to do it off of any sort of organic substance.
		It would be a general-purpose device that would be looking for things that don't belong in the environment.
		And so they'd probably be talking to some device that has a rough idea of how the environment should be.
		Now, you don't want it to eat your books.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but I mean a hairball-filled chat bar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sick of cleaning those up.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		That you can probably actually do something with.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		You might actually, maybe what you'll have is a magic wand in your hand, and you'll point it at the device, and that will then cause all the nanites in the room to run over and eat the chat bars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nanites!
unidentified		Chat bars!
unidentified		No!
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Great show this evening, or this morning, I should say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is morning.
unidentified		A few questions.
unidentified		One, for you, have you ever considered a weekly television show, say like on Sci-Fi Channel or something?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've been offered that by the Sci-Fi channel and about a million others, and I've turned every one of them down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not going to do TV.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Well, good answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Honest answer.
unidentified		Well, honest answer.
		As far as your guest goes, Mark, I have a question for you.
		The reason I'm asking this is because I'm finishing college and hopefully I'm going to be going into the military.
		But I saw a program about nanotechnology on the History Channel, and one concept that they put out was the use of nanotechnology for a skin covering, something that I guess you would inject into your skin or put on you, something that could change colors like if you were a Navy SEAL or something that could provide a barrier for protection against the environment.
		Is something like that practical?
		How far away are we from that sort of technology and would it be safe?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It certainly would be practical.
		Depending on the qualities of that kind of covering, it's relatively easy to do because it's a polymer.
		And so really what you want is some sort of active polymer that can be controlled.
		Is it safe?
		They would probably design it to be at least as safe as a wetsuit.
		You'd have to do something like that.
		Now, if it binds directly to your skin, you're going to have another level of problems because you're going to deal with perspiration and all sorts of issues like that.
		But I think you could definitely see those kinds of things.
		Those will happen, I would say, five to ten years out because those are almost the benefits of material science.
		And then the question is, how active are those materials?
		You take a look at the enormous leaps that are being made in display technology now where we have what they're calling bioluminescent LEDs and things like this.
		These are all sorts of parts of the same revolution that's going on with using materials for surfaces that have particular qualities.
unidentified		So I guess like something like, for instance, if your skin, you know, in the future, if you're in a bad accident and you get burned all over, I guess the idea of some sort of skin covering that would basically mimic your own skin, I guess, you know, the potential for that is also there.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Yes, the potential for that's also there, although I think that by the time we do that, you'd probably also then be able to take your genome into high care and regrow new skin.
unidentified		Well, one quick question.
unidentified		As far as car technology, do you know if anybody's working on something to where you would be able to like maybe you buy a car in just plain white by changing something, spraying something, whatever, it would instantly change the color of your car.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		That is one of the things that people are working on.
		This is again a lot of work that's going on in material science.
		There's a big push toward what we call digital ink right now, which is another type of material which allows you to have, say, a book, but the book's pages are actually active.
		They're not printed so much as they are electronic and they portray something, and yet the surface is very flexible and very thin like a book.
		And so you can see that as being a very easy extension from a book cover to a car cover.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I was just thinking as he was talking about the car.
		I used to be a police dispatcher.
		Boy, it would complicate that job.
		You're looking for a green Chevy, right?
		Then you're looking for a blue Chevy and a yellow Chevy and an orange Chevy.
		And pretty soon you're not even Looking for a Chevy anymore.
		You're looking for a Ford because it just morphed into a Ford.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		No, but probably what the police officer would do would be to fire a dart of nanites at it, which would tag the car and then make it possible to capture, no matter what the car looked like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hey, this is Nick, another 640 man in L.A. Yes, sir.
		The blockbuster program is one of the three best I've ever heard in several years.
		That last caller really leads into my double question because the two questions are related about productivity and about violence for hire.
		But that's going to be great when your closet's going to start looking like a broom closet.
		You have a jar for every article of clothing you want to wear.
		You just spray and poof your dress and whatever you need to protect yourself.
		The two questions, this is on the other extreme rather than right next to your body.
		In the whole world, you're going to have sheepherders in Mongolia.
		You're going to have jitney drivers in Brazil.
		Millions of workers suddenly going to telework centers to support the new technology.
		That's great.
		Productivity is wonderful.
		But there's one downside is that everything they do will have absolutely nothing to do with their immediate environment, which will mean whole cultures will be just completely absorbed.
		Maybe you call it a kind of a cultural gray goo type of concept.
		And that leads to my main question, which is you're going to have boxing matches, bare knuckles matches, really brutal games that some rogue countries will be willing to supply, real blood being shed, real people being killed, like in the movie Gladiator, and even far more repulsive practices in which the participants are either drugged or coerced into participating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All for entertainment.
unidentified		Yeah, even torture for entertainment, and you can't stop it because it will go through the underground, through hundreds of servers, or email.
		There'll be three basic means of transmission.
		Direct server networks, email, which is storing forward where the computers don't always have to be on, or just removable media like CDs and VHS and the like.
		I'll get off the air while you address the second problem because it's concerned me for a long time as I've studied the Internet and what the next step will be.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Mark?
		Well, I mean, you can see the parallels already with sort of very far into the pornography industry.
		This is something that really is already in existence that some people will always be looking for with certain types of things that will thrill them.
		I think that the thing that matters in a situation like this is that there are people out there who are monitoring, who are actively working to monitor this.
		When you look at the issue of productivity, of where people are going to go in a culture like this, I think people will find the issues that concern them.
		We talk about striving for goals, what goals are important.
		And it may be that the goals of production will be left behind in favor of the goals for sort of humankind, for the kind of greatest benefit, so that if you find something like this that's going on at a subterranean level, perhaps someone who's been freed from a blue-collar job actually would take an interest in finding and solving these kinds of problems.
		So that the social displacements that happen may be made up for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gosh, you're an optimist.
		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mark Pesci, the optimist.
unidentified		Hello?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, yes.
		Your turn.
		Where are you, sir?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Bluefield, West Virginia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		They don't carry your last hour, so I'm going to have to ask if you don't mind after I ask my second question, if you could keep them on.
		It'll be a short answer, I'm sure.
		The first one, both of you can give me your opinion on.
		Have you read The Cat's Cradle by Kurt von Varnegat?
unidentified		Oh, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		So, you know the premise of some kind of foreign agent being creative and getting out of the lab and destroying the world is not new.
unidentified		No.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		So, I don't think with that history, and I'm sure it goes back further, I just haven't read one that's older than that, that's still going to be kept on men's minds.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		So, I think there's always going to be somebody that's going to be looking and watching out for that kind of stuff.
unidentified		Although, you know, there's no guarantees.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're an optimist, too, aren't you?
unidentified		An optimistic realist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm not sure that works, but all right.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		The second question to remark is, can those nanoprobes be turned against the Internet?
		Well, the Internet is coming through so many different media these days.
		It's either over a wire, or it's over the air, or it's over a fiber optic link, or it's over a laser link, or it's over a microwave.
		And so it's not clear that you could take out the whole Internet in a situation like that.
		You could certainly, say, produce a nanite bomb that would take out the physical wiring somewhere.
		Or perhaps produce a microwave storm so that people couldn't get their calls through.
		So in a limited sense, it could do it.
		Whether it could do it in the global sense, that's not clear.
		I mean, certainly if you produced something that was just the grey goo, then that would take the internet out because it would take everything else out with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But as you see the internet now, or even in its immediate future, its broadband future, nanotechnology would not directly apply to destroying it.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		You could take out sections, but I don't think you could take out the whole thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm right.
		Exactly.
		All right, good.
		At least there's some limit there.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello, gentlemen.
		This is Lee out of Seattle on Como.
		How you doing?
		Yeah, I agree with you in 100,000 spades that this man is a cockeyed optimist.
		You know, let me say I'm not a Luddite, and I read a tremendous amount of science fiction.
		I've read about this, but it just scares the hell out of me.
		The combination of this, especially with our breakthroughs in genetic technology, is just astoundingly scary.
		To me, it would be like, in our present form of society, I believe it would be like giving a group of cannibal headhunters an armed atomic bomb and just letting them play around with it.
		I'm going to address a military question in a minute, but let me make a couple other observations.
		I came across a very interesting thing applies to this.
		It was a quote from someone who says, experience is a hard teacher.
		It gives the test first and the lesson afterwards.
		And when we start dealing with these super technologies like we're getting into now, we're only going to have one chance for a world-changing mistake.
		I think particularly the thing that scares me with this technology is its application to tyranny.
		And as you said, Art, I mean, let's look at the examples we've got.
		Mr. Fuller pointed out 50 years ago, we could feed all the world and we could manage all our energy needs.
		We've got everything we need under our current technology, but we're not doing so.
		We're still killing the world with out-of-date petroleum pollution.
		And that's because people are making money and they're controlling power with it.
		This is just going to be that ramped up a hundred times.
		What if a dictator, for instance, wanted to secretly assassinate someone?
		He could key one of these things into their genome, have it so it would only strike one person, it would hunt them out, it would go into their brain, pop a blood vessel, and then they would destroy themselves.
		It looked like he had a stroke and no one would ever know.
		Let me cite an example from The Outer Limits.
		I know some people you had on just recently.
		They did a show about this.
		Incredibly interesting and frightening.
		This was going to take a tremendous amount of programming to make these work.
		They're incredibly specialized, but yet they're very stupid because they're so small.
		This guy was a medical application, and they injected these things inside of a body for experimental first-generation nanites.
		And they told them to protect and repair his immune system.
		So they went in there and they repaired him all right, but then they discovered he wasn't good enough.
		And so they started changing his skin, adding ribs.
		Pretty soon his head started itching in the back, and he discovered he had a second pair of eyes in the back of his head.
		They made him better than he was.
		And that was because the programming wasn't done properly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, but look, programming is always done properly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, does Windows 98 ever crash?
unidentified		Exactly.
		I would never want to inject anything like this in my body.
		Not if I can help it.
		But the problem is, you know, it could be spread around the world and you wouldn't know it's there.
		So how does the guest address the tyrannical aspects of this?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I think that the thing we're going to need to develop is a very powerful defense.
		There's no question about that.
		I think that we're going to need to take a look at the human body and use that as the model and really inflate the idea of the human body and its elaborate defenses against penetration and say, okay, we need to replicate that in a nanotechnology world.
		We need to bring those defenses not only inside the body, but outside the body.
unidentified		How about this could be targeted against specific people and you wouldn't even know it was in your environment until it killed you.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		But you would because you'll have nanites in your butt that are checking for foreign invader in them.
unidentified		You know, the people that have the power right now can control us.
unidentified		They can do that kind of programming, but the common people won't be able to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, they'll have it first.
		And the people with the money will have the bots, and everybody else will have, well, they'll be in the pots.
		The haves and the have-nots, bot-wise.
		Nanotechnologically speaking, I'm Marfell.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I was just thinking, listen to the words of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It really defines the current social human condition on Earth almost perfectly.
unidentified		Are we ready for nanotechnology hunt?
		Some of them want to use you.
		Some of them want to get you by you.
		Some of them want to use you.
		Some of them want to be of you.
		Want to take a ride?
		Call our Dell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to call it on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, come on, get off your worldwide dust and give me a call internationally.
		Figure it out.
		Call the operator, the AT ⁇ T operator.
		Beg her, she'll help you.
		800-893-0903.
		That's 800-893-0903.
		It's actually free from anywhere in the world.
		Oh, look what Ben in Calgary, Alberta says.
		He says, hey, Art, if you think Microsoft on your computer is unpleasant, can you imagine it in your body?
		Once again, the prince of micro...
		Mark, welcome back.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would it be possible, do you think, this is just an offhand question, to design a nanotechnological something or another that would literally go around the world and destroy every single cell phone?
unidentified		Is that a yes?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		That's an I don't know.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I think once we get GPS and all of them, it'll certainly be easy to track them down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
unidentified		Hello.
		Oh, good evening, Mark.
		John from Kauai, KQNG 570, listening to you out here.
		Thanks again for making us all stop and think.
		Good morning, Mark.
		Good morning.
		My question is twofold.
		Number one, could nanites be made to be dispersed and then sit dormant, maybe recharging on solar power until they were globally awakened?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Yes, absolutely.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		The question with that is, what signal do you use to awaken them?
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Secondly, if I had a nanite and I took it in for inspection, could it be detected under a normal laboratory microscope at, say, 250 to 500 power?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It would depend on the scale of the nanite.
		Most nanites, We think will be between the size of a bacterium and a virus.
		It would depend on the complexity of them.
		And so you can't really see a virus with a 500 times microscope.
		You can see a bacterium.
unidentified		And my last question to you, Argus, would you ask him if it could be sprayed in an aerosol form from an area tanker?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And for you, Caller?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Regarding the signal?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We all know what it is.
unidentified		It's clap-on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Clap-on.
		All right, thank you.
		And later.
		I don't think you would have to go to the extreme of spraying this stuff from anything, would you?
		Or would there be instances where you would?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess it would depend on what your needs were.
		I mean, if there was an immediate problem and you wanted an immediate application, it's the same thing we use normal materials for.
		You use a spray when you want to apply something directly over a particular area.
		And then you know it's there rather than waiting for it to find whatever its target is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
		Gregoo?
		Gregoo.
		Wanna Cardline, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
unidentified		Hi.
		Yeah, hi, yeah.
		This is Franco calling from L.A., KFI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, Mark, would it be possible to use nanotechnology to help us, like, with the supernatural sector, the area as far as helping detect all these shadow people, the ghosts, and the spirits?
		And I'll listen up here.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, to learn something about what we now consider to be the metaphysical.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, it would depend on whether there's anything measurable by a nanite in that area.
		And clearly, the one thing that a nanite can do is it can make very, very precise and fine measurements to a detail and to a degree that normal scientific instruments aren't normally able.
		And so if there is something that is physically present in a phenomenon, a nanite might be able to detect it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
unidentified		Aye.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		Okay, this is Mark from Grafton, Wisconsin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Okay.
		When you mentioned the gray goo in the beginning, it was really fascinating.
		And it kind of reminded me of, I don't know, the Big Bang, or at least the theory of the Big Bang.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's kind of like the Big Bang in a way.
unidentified		An expansion, I had a few comments on this.
		It's kind of a not-so-down-to-earth comment, but like the ultimate nanites, I guess, if you can look at it, it's the Big Bang released stuff.
		Maybe the ultimate nanites are nuclear material itself.
		I mean, because what we build everything with in science, you know, it's some stuff that already exists, you know, nuclear atoms, molecules.
		And, you know, from the Hindu and Buddhist perspective, we live in an interactive universe.
		So, you know, these ultimate nanites that I call nuclear material, I mean, we're interacting with them all the time.
		The way the Buddhist and Hindu philosophy goes is that for everything there's a cause.
		It's just an endless chain of cause and effect.
		So we know we're interacting with something.
		My point is we're interacting with these ultimate nanites I call the stuff of the universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're getting metaphysical on this.
unidentified		Well, it's metaphysical.
unidentified		My point is with this, again, is even everything that we create, you know, like even, I remember when the Cray computers, you familiar with Cray?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course.
unidentified		Cray computer systems?
		Yes.
		Their computers were approaching even the human form because they started using artificial blood plasma to cool the computer systems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the point is Well, I guess you could think of it as artificial blood plasma, but I don't.
unidentified		My point is to Mark, what's his, you know, with respect to scale or the end, how far we can go from now on technology, that's why I bring up this kind of metaphysical point.
		What's his view on scale?
		I mean, how far can we take it?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's going to be a complete transformation of the material world.
		Now, because we live in the material world, because we interact with and are engaged in a chain of causality in the material world, if we completely transform the material world, there is no choice but to completely transform what we are.
		Humanity on the other side of the nanotechnology revolution does not look like the humanity of the early 21st century.
		As Art points out repeatedly, there may not be any humanity at all.
		We may have pressed the wrong button, or maybe there was a software glitch and Microsoft and our bodies decided to just melt us all down.
		That said, it is possible that this transformation will take us somewhere else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder what they'd call that operating system.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Mark Pesci.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, this is Quinton in Portland.
		Hello, Quentin.
		I have two comments.
		The last caller kind of led up to it, the first one.
		My opinion is that technology is a way to reflect back to ourselves our own makeup.
		I mean, we learn about, like you were saying earlier, you know, we create a mechanical emotional human, and we learn about our own emotions.
		And I think that nanotechnology really gets down to the level of quantum physics and consciousness.
		And, you know, once we get into that level, we're in the arena of our consciousness affecting reality.
		Now, we're using technology to do that, but I think that we already have that ability already within the human form.
		I mean, I'm thinking of someone like Jesus who manifested the loaves and fishes directly out of energy in the universe.
		And so I just see that nanotechnology is kind of a stepping stone to spiritual awakening because, like you say, we're getting into a time when we'll be directly manipulating physical reality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly correct.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		If we have that kind of ability right now, a direct control over matter, it's latent.
		It's not something we normally imply.
		And yet technologies are the way we convince ourselves that we have control over the material world.
		And so nanotechnology is, in a sense, that last step of control, That last actualization in which we've managed to prove to ourselves that we really do have the degree of control over the material world, that was always latent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But at some point, nanotechnology, for example, would allow a virtual duplication of every miracle or pestilence that occurred from God or Jesus when he was on earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All of these things could be manifested by nanotechnology.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		In the twinkling of an eye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then in a twinkling of an eye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then how do we separate ourselves from God at that point?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Well, you'd have to, I think, be careful about psychological ego inflation.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		That's probably going to be one of the major psychiatric disorders of a nanotechnology world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		People believing that they are the entire universe.
		And so there's going to have to be a balance.
		And again, when you strike the sort of cautionary note, what we're saying is that we have to find that balance between our incredibly realized abilities as individuals and the fact that we need to keep existing as a species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any way for people to get in contact with you, Mark?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Email addresses?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Email address is right there on the website, right on the front page of playfulworld.com.
		I encourage everyone.
		I got a couple of emails during the program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it, just for grins?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Mark with a K at playfulworld.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's easy.
		Okay, Mark at playfulworld.com.
		That's really easy.
		All right.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you have Hum.
unidentified		Yes, I'm a first-time caller.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I'm calling from El Paso, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I'm KTSM 690.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And my name is Gary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Gary, fire away.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Is this our bell?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure is.
unidentified		Just one question, sir.
		Well, I have two questions.
		One, first of all, are we live across all 50 states of the United States of America?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Say that again, please.
unidentified		Are we live across the whole world?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, the entire world.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		My name is Gary, and I'm calling from El Paso, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I got that already.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		The reason why I'm calling, sir, Mr. Belt, Art Belt, is because I was to say that from my understanding of physics and the universe and astronomy, one time I posed a question to a man that was a planetarium director.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you're going to have to get on subject here, or we're going to have to move on.
		Oh, I've got a guest.
		Do you have a question for him?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it?
unidentified		It's about the nanoworld, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Okay.
		I just want to ask one question.
		What is the definition of nanotechnology?
		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's probably something we should have really defined at the beginning of the program.
		What is your definition of nanotechnology?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Nanotechnology is the human ability to build devices out of individual atoms.
		So we take a look at the natural world, they take a look at a piece of wood, it's carbon atoms and oxygen atoms and hydrogen atoms that have been grown by nature's nanotechnology, a tree, biology.
		And so nanotechnology is our ability to take individual atoms and assemble them in any way we want to create anything we need.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		International Line, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		Where are you?
		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm in Canberra.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		England?
unidentified		Canberra, Australia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Australia.
unidentified		And basically, I've just had a comment, something that I think is pretty good.
		First, I want to say hi to Maastrax in IRC.
		My comment is, you're talking before about the possible deployments of nanoproaches.
		Maybe, if you think about it, some chemtrails are just that.
		Deployment of nanoproaches.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could be.
		And there might be some applications where it would be sprayed.
		There are a lot of people who believe that we are being sprayed with one thing or another, Mark.
		That's what they mean by chemtrails.
		Again, would that be an effective way to disperse some early forms of nanotechnology?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		If you're looking to disperse things into the environment that would be protective, the things that would protect against Greygou, you'd probably want first to test them very carefully in the laboratory to make sure that they are not dangerous.
		And then after that, release them first at control levels and then very widespread levels into the environment.
		And this way, we will end up constructing an immune system that will help us defend against Grey Goo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kind of a Grey Goo SDI.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Yes, a Grey Goo antivirus.
unidentified		Gotcha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildguard Line, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
unidentified		Aye.
		Yeah, greetings, Art.
		Greetings, Mr. Pesci.
		I think one thing that hasn't been properly really touched on, a few people have addressed it, but putting this in the context of a national security state and the exponential erosion of privacy that we've had in this country through surveillance technology and what was originally military technology applied to civilian law enforcement.
		Basically, I think maybe we should introduce Mr. Pesci to Nick Begich.
		I think Mr. Begich, if you put it in the context of that, of electronic mind control, of mind control technologies of which there are patents, of the CIA's history of mind control experiments, and again, of this growing, it's a cliché, but this growing police state, the means of mass control of individuals is never-ending.
		You could determine each individual's reality, not only the perception, but the response to it.
		And while I've been listening to this just absolutely glued, it's like listening to Michi Okaku in the sense of how theoretically fascinating it is in practical application.
		I'm afraid that the end result of this is going to be nanological chains.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, Mark, in other words, there we are again, the one world government, the iron fist upon all of us.
		He somehow sees that completely tied into the development of this technology.
		I mean, in some ways, I see why he fears that, because we're kind of moving in that direction now.
		I mean, what if they have the tools to really make it so?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		The question here is, is there a they in this situation?
		Nanotechnologies will be both totally very easy to make, which is a great benefit and danger, and very easy to distribute.
		And so in the sense that we don't really have to worry about a centralized state trying to control nanotechnology, there probably won't be a single point of focus for control.
		That also means that if there are control nanites in the environment, someone clever will develop anti-control nanites in the environment.
		At least we'd have to want to work for that kind of thing.
		I mean, again, perhaps the biggest, most important issue in nanotechnology is the issue of defense against nanotechnology.
		That that really is almost a bigger part of the problem than anything of the benefits that we get.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Not a lot of time.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mark Pesci.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, this is Justin listening in Minneapolis on the M1500.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir, KSTP.
unidentified		Yep.
unidentified		I have a question about how could you possibly power all these trillions of little nanites in a sustainable way?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It's a very good question.
		There are a lot of proposals on the table right now.
		Some of them involve using microwaves, ultraviolet light, sunlight, and infrared light.
unidentified		You can use the photoelectric effect on these devices.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Now, if you have a nanite that's floating around inside your body, it might be metabolizing sugars that are in your body.
		It might be beaming microwaves at a very low level into your body to keep them activated.
		Now, one of the upsides of this sort of thing is it provides a way to turn them off.
		Because if you deprive them of whatever their power source is, you've effectively deprived them of their ability to function.
		But it's one of the issues that researchers are looking into right now when they're studying how to make these devices work.
unidentified		And also, if they're electronically based, what would happen if you aimed extremely high-powered ENPs at them, or high-powered microwaves, or what if they got hit by a solar flare?
unidentified		Would that knock them out?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		It would probably knock them out in the same way that our computer chips these days can be knocked out by solar flares.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		I never even considered that aspect of it.
		In other words, there might be things in the environment that would kill a nanotechnological project of some sort, dead or nodornail.
		Absolutely.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		The smaller you get, the easier it is for them to break.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Once again, your book is called Playful World.
		And your book is available all around the playful world right now, right?
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bookstores and on Amazon.com and website, all the rest of it.
		We've got a link to your website up there right now.
		And your email address is mark at playful.com.
unidentified		Playful World.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Playful World.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So easy.
		Well, you're going to get a lot of emails.
		Are you able to answer them?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		I'll try.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you say you're looking forward to the development of this technology or you are wary of the development of this technology?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Or both?
		I would say I'm guardedly optimistic.
		I believe the basic principle of chaos theory is sensitive dependence on initial conditions.
		And I think that we need to make the best possible world for nanotechnology.
		We need to make the best possible awareness for the public, for the government, for the researchers.
		If we do that, we stand the best possible chance of navigating this incredible transition.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it sure has been a pleasure having you on the program.
		And if you're up to it, we will definitely do it again because we've hardly scratched the nanotechnological surface here.
		And so will you come back?
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		I've had a great time.
		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're very welcome.
		Good night, Mark.
		All right.
		Tomorrow night, Linda Molten Howe will be here in the first hour.
		She was displaced and she volunteered to be displaced.
		And she's got a lot of very important information.
		But as you know, Richard Hoagland had also some incredibly current, important information in tonight's first hour.
		So she will be here tomorrow night in the first hour.
		I'm Art Bell from the high desert, where finally the devil winds have let up a little bit.
		High pressure is settling in.
		Is the break big or is it a little tiny?
		nanotechnological tautonom.
unidentified		The End
unidentified		From the high deserts, And the great American Southwest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I bid you all.
		Good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in all the world's time zones.
		And both of them are pretty dark.
		We talked to a good time tonight.
mark pesce ▲ ● ▼		How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm Mark Bellin.
		It's the weekend version of Coast to Coast A.M. As a little follow-up to last night's program, we're going to be very busy tonight, but Prince, New Jersey, Associated Press, Lena Slow, documented as the world's oldest woman, died today at the nursing home where her daughter died three days earlier.
		She was 114 or 15, depending on which story she believed.
		Her daughter had died at the same nursing home a few days earlier.
		Her daughter was 90 years old.
		Now, can imagine being old enough to watch your 90-year-old daughter die.
		Being old enough to watch your 90-year-old daughter die.
		Anyway, so much for longevity.
		Tonight we will examine the story of the claw.
		Actually, there are two many things, but the claw is going to be first.
		Dr. Roger Lear is here.
		Dr. Roger Lear, author of his book is Aliens and the Scalpel.
		It's an intriguing title, isn't it?
		And it's said to be one of the world's most important leaders that we're about to interview in physical evidence research involving the field of ufology.
		He and his surgical team have performed nine surgeries on alleged alien abductees.
		This has resulted in the removal of 10 separate and distinct objects suspected of being alien implants.
		These objects have been scientifically investigated by some of the most prestigious laboratories in the world.
		Their findings have been baffling.
		Some comparisons have been made to meteorite samples.
		Dr. Lear anticipates performing yet more surgeries in the future and will investigate the physiological and biological aspects of the abduction phenomena.
		He has also formed a non-profit organization for this specific purpose called ANS Research Inc.
		In a moment, Dr. Lear will relate for you the story of the claw.
unidentified		Music
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, in the next hour, Richard C. Hoagland is here with some shocking information.
		And we're going to have a discussion with Mike Heiser in the hour following that about ETs and religion.
		That's going to be very interesting.
		I plan to play the part of a right-wing religious fundamentalist fanatic, and we'll see how they do with me.
		In the meantime, we're about to hear the story of the claw.
		Delivered serendipitously one day to Dr. Lear's front porch in a large box.
		He opened it.
		And it came directly at him.
		And he just barely cut it off.
		No, that's not the story of the claw, but here comes the real story of the claw.
		Dr. Lear, welcome to the program.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Nice to be with you again, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Great to have you.
		We're going to have to treat this, though I know the claw has been under investigation for a long time.
		Really, this is going to be more the story of how things are investigated the real way when something anomalous shows up.
		It doesn't happen frequently enough.
		You know, they go in drawers and closets and they're forgotten and they're never investigated properly.
		So let's tell the story of the claw.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, Art, this is a non-implant case that we've been investigating for some years now.
		And as far as abduction cases go, it probably has more physical evidence than any case in the books that are on record.
		And that's why I got interested in it.
		And I don't mind to say the name because people will recognize it if they've been following so long.
		So this we're talking about the Gary Lowery case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Gary, well, okay, give us a brief overview of that case.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		What happened?
		He's a gentleman with a family who was a fireman, and his job in the fire department was that of an arson investigator.
		So he was sort of a professional at collecting physical evidence in the first place.
		He and his family have been involved with the alien abduction phenomena for some years now.
		And during the course of this, there's been a lot of physical evidence things that go on around the house, which there's magnetic anomalies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, they're victims of abduction themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		It involves him and the whole family.
		Now, to shorten the story so we can get basically to the point, one of the things that Gary was doing was trying to collect footprints.
		And he did this in a very simple manner.
		He took a towel, which was the same color as the rug on the floor, and he laminated a piece of heavy tin foil on the back side of the towel, and then placed that down on the floor in front of the wall area where he saw these whatever come through.
		And he successfully got some footprints which he casted.
		So he got one centerprints.
		Why not get more?
		That's right.
		So he tried doing this for several times and was relatively unsuccessful.
		So whoever or whatever was stepping on the towel decided maybe they would step over it or something.
		And he got a few scratches and things, but no more prints.
		But one morning he woke up and looked at the towel and he could see a dark object that was kind of hooked in the loops of the towel.
		So he called his wife in, who had seen him place the towel on the floor the night before and was aware of the fact that it was clean.
		There was nothing on it.
		In fact, she was the one that laundered the towel.
		So here we have two eyewitnesses to this thing that's caught up in the fibers of this towel.
		So we took a look at it, and it's an object that's maybe about three-quarters of an inch long, and it's dark in color and sort of has a point that goes down at the end.
		So he looked at it and he said, hmm, this looks like a claw and got a hold of me.
		I said, you know, I'd be very much interested in seeing this.
		So I made a trip up To Bakersfield and looked at the towel and looked at this thing, and by golly, it looked like a claw, and it felt like a claw.
		So, here's where it all began.
		I said, We've got to find out, you know, what this thing is, because we may really have something here of scientific importance.
		So, we sent it off, first of all, to the University of California in Berkeley, to the Department of Zoology, and a professor there who was head of the department to look at it, and he couldn't identify it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He didn't know what kind of claw it was.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		He didn't know what it was.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So, we went back with a letter written and signed by him that said he couldn't find out what this is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the basic, is it animal-vegetable mineral?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, did they do any initial tests try and find out whether it was biological at all?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		Because the next thing we did was we sent it to my very good friend and friend, the Whitley Friever, Bill Mallow, who passed away last year at Southwest Laboratories.
		And again, I don't mind saying the name of the laboratory because Bill's gone and will never get in there again.
		So, no sense hiding the laboratory anymore over Southwest Labs in San Antonio, Texas.
		He looked at it, and he looked at it microscopically, and he had a couple of people look at it at the University of Texas, and he ran some tests on it.
		And in the first place, under the microscope, he found a vegetable layer on the outside of this thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A vegetable layer.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		A vegetable layer.
		So he called me on the phone and said, told me what he found.
		And I said, well, you know, Bill, that may not be too unusual because if it is a claw or a nail, one of the most common things is they become infected with fungus.
		So you would find a vegetable layer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So he thought that sounded okay.
		And he went ahead and proceeded to do some more tests on the inner layers.
		And he found that they contained a proteinaceous substance which was very close to keratin.
		Keratin is what makes up our fingernails.
		So with that ammunition, we were pretty well convinced.
		Now, it went from there to a primate zoologist, PAC, at the San Diego Zoo.
		We took it down there personally, and this kind lady looked at it and pondered over the books and got on the internet and looked at it under their microscope and probed it with a probe and couldn't identify it as any primate claw that she ever saw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so now, by now, you're really starting to think you've got something on your hands.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Now, we could have started tooting horns at any time, including right at that.
		Hey, guys, I think we've got a claw for an extraterrestrial.
		But we didn't do that because that's not the way I work.
		I try and get some scientific basis.
		So we knew what we had to do at that point was obviously to look at the DNA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, of course.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So specimens were very carefully taken in the manner in which they should be taken, which wasn't done in the OJ case.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And we sent these sterile specimens to a very, let's say, world-famous genetic researcher who I can't mention his name.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's all right.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And he started doing the DNA studies.
		And he was funding it himself at the beginning.
		As we got onto it, the reports that we started getting back were absolutely earth-shocking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In what sense?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		They came back as non-terrestrial DNA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Non-terrestrial.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So we said, oh boy, we got a tiger by the tail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But nevertheless, DNA, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, recognizable DNA.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Recognizable DNA chains, but these chains didn't match anything in the database.
		Not human, not primate, nothing.
		So we went on, and as we went on, we had to raise some more money.
		And if you don't mind me mentioning their names, Bob and Zoe Hieronymus were very, very responsible for getting us some further funding on this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't mind at all.
		Some people.
		So you raised more money.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So we raised more money and continued the research, which virtually went on for about two years, still getting reports of stuff that we couldn't match for any terrestrial animal.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So we had to go further with this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think by now anybody would have declared, hey, we've got something biological not from this earth.
		I mean, once you had DNA would seem to be, would seem to be, and stand by folks, because there's more to this, a pretty conclusive hunk of evidence.
		If you get DNA, but it's not human or not known DNA, you've got it, I would think, but maybe not.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, as I said, you know, the temptation was there to really toot the horn about this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's probably when I would have tooted.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		It was a great temptation, believe me.
		I mean, you know, I certainly believe in the scientific method and scientific approach, but when we get reams of paperwork and DNA analysis that comes back that tells you you got something that's not from here, boy, you know, and to keep your mouth shut, of course, the people that were involved kept saying, I think we should keep our mouths shut because the eventuality here was to get an article written in a scientific, peer-reviewed journal.
		Sure.
		And by doing so, this would have been a first for not only phenomenology, but certainly for the field of UFOs and particularly that of abduction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so you lip-sealed.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So lip-sealed, and I stopped talking about this case on television, on radio, and traveling about the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I remember when you began to shut up about it.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and of course, you know, you get all the character assassination stuff that he's hiding something, he's burying something, something he's not going to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you actually were.
unidentified		Yeah, for the moment.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		But certainly not forever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So anyway, we had to do something to really push this through organized science.
		And so I got my good friends at National Institute for Discovery Science involved again.
		And as we know, they've produced some scientific investigation of this portion of phenomenology.
		And Bob Bigelow has become quite famous in the field for certainly putting up funds for these investigations.
		And of course, now he's branched out in other things with Bigelow, aerospace, and so on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nevertheless, over the years, Bob Bigelow gets a lot of credit for being there with the money for the real serious research when people needed it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Over the years, he's done a hell of a lot of that.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And for those out there that aren't familiar with the whole story, the stuff and the rumors and everything they've heard, I'm sure you'll agree, Art, that Bob has not only put up money for this stuff, but in many cases, he's put up money and never taken credit for what he's done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm very well aware of that, yes.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So as far as I'm concerned, they've been very good, good friends to me, and they've pioneered some fantastic research.
		The Roper poles, of course, everybody knows, but there's a lot of investigation they don't know about.
		And of course, there's a lot of rumors that things go into a pit and it never comes out and so on.
		So that's far from the truth.
		As a matter of fact, if folks want to go up on your website or my website or the NIDS website, they'll see not only photos of this object we're talking about, but there's a complete giant DNA report of every facet that we went to.
		So again, on with the story.
		They've got the claw now, the specimens, the DNA, all the data.
		We have meetings.
		A plan of attack is formulated, and we start getting some first confirmatory results.
		If you got something and you got something that's this unusual, and believe me, it was unusual, what you want to do is to get somebody else to confirm it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So that's the way science works.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And if you would stick with the science, I think we'd all be better off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so what happened?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So we got some confirmatory data.
		And then as this was going on, the original genetic researcher kept working on the object along with these outside sources and developing new techniques and looking at this and looking at this piece of DNA and on and on and on.
		Then we sent it out to a third laboratory which was doing some more work and a different aspect of the DNA and we were looking at more primate things.
		What could this be closest to and so on and so on.
		So as this is going on, I mean we are getting real close now to getting this first article in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.
		As a matter of fact, we had a big meeting in Las Vegas at MIDS.
		It was an all-day meeting.
		And believe me, I'm not ashamed to say that three-quarters of the material presented at this meeting was way over my head.
		I'm not a geneticist, and I don't have the background and expertise in this field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, even when they go into courtrooms with genetic material, you mentioned the OJ trial, you know, they have to talk in numbers, and they have to make very simple charts for people to try and understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And even then, it goes right over the heads of a lot of the jurors, so it's tough.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you, at one point, I felt privileged to be there and just sit there and listen to this stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Shaking your head every now and then, like, oh, yeah, I got it.
unidentified		Yeah, man.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		That's it.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You know, and they're talking about multi-tos tests and this test and that test.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, let's get to the bottom line because I do have a lot of other stuff I want to ask you about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, the bottom line here is.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		So we got a plan formulated to what we were going to do is to get this results published in a small scientific journal that was peer-reviewed.
		And then we talked about the criticism that we were going to get.
		We tried to obviate that and so on, you know, one jump ahead.
		And so things were going in that direction.
		We left the meeting and everybody was jazzed and we thought we had the tiger by the tail and some very strange DNA.
		So researcher number one, Walcomb, goes back to the lab.
		And while Niz is in the process of writing the article for the journal, my original friend decides to look at the RNA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold it right there, Doc.
		That's a good hook.
		It's the bottom of the hour.
		I'm RBL.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Subscribe to After Dark.
		Call toll-free.
		1-888-727-5505.
		Why did I feel gone?
		Watching that cloud till you return.
		Writing that door and watching you burn.
		Now it begins day after day.
		It's only a crime and a shadow in the way you come to me.
		Baby, you'll see.
		Without you pretty, baby, without you pretty, mama, there's always good to me.
		Without you.
		Who's gonna love you, love you?
		Who's gonna love you?
		Who's gonna love you?
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the Wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Arpell from the Kingdom of Nod.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is in a moment.
		The Claw makes its final scratch.
		Dr. Roger Lear is my guest.
		And we'll wind this up and move on to other aspects of abductions and things, little things left behind.
		if you'll just stay right there.
unidentified		music
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, Into the Night with Dr. Roger Lear.
		Doctor, welcome back.
		All right, the final scratch of the claw.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we can't leave everybody hanging like a Chad.
unidentified		Like a Chad.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So, yes, we started looking at the RNA, and of course, that's ribonucleic acid, which is there before the DNA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, doctor, do me a favor and back away from the phone just a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your phone has a sort of a sound to it.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
		No, that's much better.
		Okay, so you looked at the RNA.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		We're looking at the RNA, and suddenly we get a match in the GenBank, a database match.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And it turns out to be in the family of molluscum, a mollusk, a snail, a slug.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was a slug.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		It was a slug.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		A terrestrial slug.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Slug.
		Oh, boy.
		And so I'm sure you felt like you just got slugged.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I sure did.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		But boy, at that time, I was just so tickled to death that I didn't flap my lips in the wind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, indeed.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		How would all involved look, if we had published this article and someone would have come along with this and looked like slugs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there you have it, ladies and gentlemen.
		There's a story of what somebody has to go through to investigate something of this possible magnitude.
		Not a story of one that came out to be extraterrestrial, but nevertheless, that's the kind of thing you've got to go through.
		So if you've got a sort of a little anomalous something, don't be afraid to get hold of somebody like Dr. Lear or the Big Low Foundation or somebody who can do the right kind of research because, baby, that's what it takes.
		Dr. Lear, you have removed implants from people who have been abducted and had things put in them.
		Are you convinced, Doctor?
		After all, who better to ask than someone who's taken them out?
		Are you convinced that there really are abductions and that things really are being implanted in people?
		That's a straight-out question.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's take part one.
		Am I convinced personally that there is such a thing as an abduction?
		Yes, I am.
		I've been all over the world and I've talked to people in many, many countries, and the things that they talk about here in the U.S. are the same as what they talk about in South America or in Israel or Czechoslovakia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And by the way, you know, China too, that's not too well known.
		But the fact of the matter is, while China will not allow a lot of things to be investigated, for some reason, the communist Chinese are actively even encouraging and backing UFO investigation.
		It's kind of strange.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they've got the largest organization for the investigation of UFOs in the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, why would you think that would be, Doctor?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		It's strange.
		I mean, given their governmental system and so on, that I have, along with many other things, have no answer for.
		And that's what I was going to say.
		If people come along, so-called experts in this field, and they claim to know the answers, put your fingers in your ears, flap your arms, and run just as fast as you can because it's nonsense.
		No one has the answer.
		All you wind up with are, if you follow the science, just follow the science, you'll wind up with more questions.
		And back to the claw, if you don't mind me, just a sec.
		Here's some of the questions.
		How did the slug get in a towel in Gary's closet?
		How did the slug get mummified to the state in which it was found?
		Now, we just found out recently, and I haven't even published this yet, that slugs in the Bakersfield area are no longer than a half an inch.
		This slug was almost three-quarters of an inch in its mummified state.
		And when we look at the DNA, again, follow the science, we got a 97% match to a slug from New Zealand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		New Zealand.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And a 94% match to a sea slug.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		How did either one of those get into Gary's head?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe whoever it was who had been conducting the abductions had a sense of humor.
		And you mentioned that it had recognized, apparently, the towel with the aluminum foil for the footprint, so maybe it just said to its little alien self, hey, let's have some fun.
		Let's drop one of these New Zealand slug claws.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Or was it something that was on somebody's foot and fell off?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I know I discussed this with Whitley, and he verified the fact that a number of different physical evidence cases showed things that were mysteriously there from the sea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you've had probably more experience with physical evidence than almost any other investigator, save perhaps crop circle investigation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So of those items that you have removed from people, how many, what percentage of those, only 10, but what percentage are anomalous today?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, the total number of the surgeries was 10 to date, and the number of objects was 11.
		One of these objects turned out to be a very expensive piece of glass, not expensive from the manufacturing standpoint, from the standpoint of the research to find out exactly what it was.
		But the other 10 have all had anomalous things, both metallurgically and biologically.
		The two most outstanding things are three.
		One is when you examine the individual prior to the time that they're removed, you found that these objects are emitting electromagnetic field of about six milligauss.
		Now that, as you know, that's a pretty field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And once they're out, they emit nothing, so they're obviously unplugged.
		Then you go look at the biological anomalies.
		We find that there's no inflammatory response by the body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can I just stop you one second?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The fact that the radiation ceases when it's removed from the body, would that indicate to you that it's drawing its power from the biological entities to which it's attached or that it's just remotely shut off?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I would say that the power source has been disconnected.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		It's been unplugged because one of the biological findings we find is that there's not only a lack of inflammatory response, but there's a large number of nerve cells which are not politically correct for the anatomical area that they're in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's modified the nerve structure near it.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		That's what it seems to be.
		And of course the other startling things, you know, here's somebody that comes and they allege an alien abduction scenario, and the stories are all great.
		They're extremely interesting.
		I love them, love to hear them, catalog them, write them, and so on.
		But to me, the thing is the physical evidence actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, of course, yes.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So you look at the metallurgy, and I mean that information comes back to me from laboratories like New Mexico Tech, Los Alamos National Labs, and on and on and on.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And they tell me, for example, they find iron, and the iron turns out to be amorphous iron, but yet the object is so magnetic, they can't understand how it could possibly be magnetic at all when the iron and the object has no molecular structure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, is there anything in any and or all of the cases that would lead you toward a clue about function?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Function is entirely theoretical as far as I'm concerned.
		I mean, there's a number of popular theories.
		One, they could be transponders for location or modifiers of behavior, or they could be detection devices such as we use with astronauts.
		But I have another theory, and I think that they are, perhaps at least some group of them, are genetically genetic detection devices to detect modification in our genetics.
		I believe, again, that going around the world, I think that the kids that have been born within the last 40, 50 years are not the same human beings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, you know, you're not the first person to say that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you back that up with any science at all?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I know that it's possible.
		I was talking to Colin Kelleher at NIDS.
		He thinks that we could do a study to look at old DNA versus new DNA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Possibly pinpoint it.
		All we need is the funds to do it.
		But, you know, there's a large amount of books that are coming out now, the Millennium Children, the children of the world.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Star children, all of them.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Star children, indigo children.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Okay, then let's try this angle.
		What do you think is the difference between these children and my generation?
		What's the difference?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can tell you exactly.
		You asked me if there's scientific proof.
		There's statistical scientific proof because they've done a study on 17 functional growth characteristics.
		This has nothing to do with the child's mood or their IQ or anything else or what they're wearing or what they ate.
		It's just what age did they stand, what age did they raise their head, which age did they talk, and so on.
		And we find looking at 17 functional growth characteristics in a 40-year period, 1947 to 1987, they've been accelerated from 16, that's 1 six, to 80%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You can't argue with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is a big difference.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And how many mothers do you talk to that tell you their child has done this or said this that they don't know where it'll look at them?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, Doctor, maybe all of these alien abductions and this interaction between aliens and humans, I mean, so many researchers think it's for genetic purposes, favoring them or favoring us, but genetic because of the examination of reproductive organs, that kind of thing.
		The cows, all of that, the genetics there.
		All of this perhaps could be to our benefit in the sense that right before our very eyes, they're changing us.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you, I tend to lean in that direction, but I hate to use the word all because, as you know, folks like David Jacobs, a very famous, well-respected researcher.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have a lot of respect for Dr. Jacobs.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		He thinks that there's some hybrid program going on, and I tend to agree that maybe the word all shouldn't be used because maybe different strokes for different folks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I respect about Dr. Jacobs is he's one of the very few people who has said with regard to aliens, hey, wait a minute now, all this warm, fuzzy stuff.
		You know, they may not be our friends.
		And we don't really know, and you've got to admit, we don't really know what they're doing.
		And so I'd say it's even money on whether it's good for us or perhaps not so good for us.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head, and it just goes back to what I said before.
		If any one of us claims to have the answers, you better put your fingers in your ears and run.
		Because we don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many, this is just asking for a guess here, but how many people do you suppose are running around who are implanted, who, A, may not have the faintest idea of themselves they've been implanted, and B, nobody else knows as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, how many are out there that we don't know about versus the ones that have come and complained?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's look at the few figures that we have from the Roper poll, for example, in relation to the amount of abductees up to 2%.
		And we're talking about quite a few million people if we multiply this on a worldwide basis.
		And it would seem to me that in my experience, which is small and brief, that there's about 15% that might have objects in them for some reason.
		And this kind of goes along.
		Think about what do we do with our implanting lesser life forms?
		About 15%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're suggesting you do believe that 15% of the totality of the population is implanted?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		To the totalitarian abductee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of those who have claimed abduction?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Now, also, another thing you just hit on it a minute ago, if things go the way they're supposed to go, I don't think you're supposed to know you've been abducted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I rather suspect not.
		Except in perhaps rare cases, I don't think you're supposed to know you are either.
		And if they're really talented at creating a situation where you don't remember and you don't know, then most of them probably haven't been reported.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I think one of the things that's going on is, as we discussed with the kids, is an expansion of consciousness.
		And this can become a problem because it can become a problem for the abductor.
		If one's consciousness is being expanded, then all of a sudden you're going to have a few leak-through memories of things that you may have not been aware of before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you were aware, doctor, that you had an implant yourself, would you remove it or would you leave it and see what happened?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I would have to give you a very biased answer on that because, I mean, if someone asked me if, you know, a craft landed and I was waved aboard, would I go?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Of course I'd go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		all fear would be outweighed by the scientific curiosity you know someone asked me probably On the one hand, you could take it out and try and examine it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the other hand, you could leave it in and try and figure out what it was doing to you.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's good.
		That's a good question, because, boy, that ticks it right home.
		Again, scientific curiosity could go two ways.
		But I think I would leave it in, and if I could get the test done that I thought should be run on it, I would leave it in there for as long as I possibly could to get the most amount of knowledge out of it before it was ever removed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Well, you know, the one that stood the hair on the back of my neck straight up was when Whitley and the surgeon who did the work on Whitley were on the program.
		And the surgeon said, straight to me, Art, I got in there, I got near it with the scalpel, and I watched it move within his ear.
		The implant moved by itself to a place where I couldn't get it without doing damage.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, Art, the last case I did was a case of a lady who had an object in the arm that when you touched it, it moved out of the way.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And when we went to remove it, the surgeon that did it had to put a finger on either side to keep it in the surgical wound area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And we got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you got it.
		And we got it.
		And was it moving after you got it?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		now so i guess all of this is going to remain very mysterious and unsettling uh...
		into weekend It's too interesting.
		Where do you go?
		That's, I guess, a good question.
		Where does your research go now?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've got to raise the necessary funds so that we can keep the fires of scientific research going in the manner that we did with the CLAW.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		The CLAW should be a really good example of how academic science can be applied to phenomenology, ufology, or any other field that you want to investigate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as you know, I was given a piece of material said to be from the Roswell crash, which we had investigated by Carnegie and others, and is indeed anomalous, not from this world.
		And I still have it.
		And it's a kind of an odd thing because when I got it, I really thought very hard about what to do about it.
		And I can tell you that most people, most people, doctor, are going to just put it away as an oddity and they're never going to turn it over to anybody.
		If somebody's got something out there, and you can bet your bottom dollar they do, and they want to get hold of you to have you take a look-see at something or test something.
		How do they do that?
		How do they get hold of you?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the easiest way is to go through my website, which is alienscalpel.com with 1S.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, and by the way, your book, they might want to read, The Alien and the Scalpel, still out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Still, I take it available on eBay or whatever.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, should be able to get it.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And if they can't, again, go through the website, and we'd be happy to get them a copy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So one way or the other, they can get it.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And then my new one out that has one great story in it, the anthology that we wrote called Chopped Liver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Chopped Liver?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, there's a title for a book, Chopped Liver, huh?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Chopped Liver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, as always, Dr. Lear, it's a pleasure having you here, and I want to thank you for all the work you do on behalf of those who want to know what the hell's going on out there.
		Thank you.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You're welcome, Mark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Dr. Lear.
		It is a very odd world we live in, isn't it?
		All right, coming up, this is going to be really fun, I think.
		Richard C. Hoagland is coming on next.
		He's got some ton of breaking news for you on the face on Mars.
		And then we're going to move into another area, which will be the subject of one of Richard's conferences coming up shortly.
		And I think it's been needed for a very, very long time.
		And that is what the world is going to do from the point of view of religion and all of that if they become obvious.
		How will we all handle it?
		That's what we're going to be talking about.
		I'm Art Bell and this is Post to Post AM.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell and this is Post to Post AM.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Hold on to start your actor dark.
unidentified		Don't you love her as she's walking out the door like she did one thousand times before?
		Don't you love her way and tell me what you say?
		Don't you love her as she's walking out the door?
		Are you love?
		Are you loving it for?
		Gotta sing a lonely song Of a deep love dream Seven horses say you'd be on the mark Want to take a ride?
		Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach ART at area code 775-727-1222.
		Or call the wildcard line at 775-727-1295.
		To talk with ART on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed a brand new weekend version.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How y'all doing?
unidentified		And by the way, we're here all of Saturday and all of Sunday night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so if your radio station doesn't carry all of Saturday and all of Sunday night, call them up and say, hey, what's up?
		What are you doing in the middle of the night when you could be doing something much better?
		Right on the mark is Richard C. Hoagland, a former Space Science Museum curator.
		Target picture him in that role.
		A former NASA consultant and during the historic Apollo missions to the moon was science advisor Walter C. Krunkite in CBS News.
		For the past 19 years, Hoagland has been leading an outside scientific team in a critically acclaimed independent analysis of possible intelligently designed artifacts on Mars and annoying legions of people.
		In the past four years, he and his team's investigators have been quietly extended to include over 30 years of previously hidden data from NASA.
		That's part of why he's annoyed people.
		NASA, the Soviet and Pentagon missions to the moon.
		Now, he's a remarkable man, and what I would suggest as a beginning point for all of us that are computer capable is that you immediately go to your computer for the conversation that's about to ensue and go to Enterprisemission.com.
		There'll be a link certainly on the Coast Coast AM website.
		Get to EnterpriseMission.com.
		And you're going to want to, and I know that everything's going to go berserk here, you're going to want to go to the page that shows, there's a link there that says light finally dawns at Sidonia.
		And you're going to want to get that picture on your computer screen for what's coming.
unidentified		And it's coming next.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And here is Richard C. O. Glenn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yay, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know, we've got to stop meeting like this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People are beginning to meet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you doing, buddy?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing great.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm just fine.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There's a little in your voice that I have not heard in quite a while.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You're like the old Dalmatian in a damn fire engine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if my cheeks have a little rosy teenage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, look, you've got something pretty big, in my opinion.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So you went and looked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, hell yeah.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and you know what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had Ramona in here just before showtime, and you know, she's seen the face many times.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Excellent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And she just took a real quick glance at it, and she said, What's that reflecting?
		You know, and that's total layman.
		Ramona's, you know, and she just, boom, hit it right on the head, and I said, yep, that's what it's going to be about.
		What the hell's reflecting?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's like the Robin test.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's way of the Robin Test.
		Yes.
		It's a new picture of Sidonia.
		Now, I'm sure Richard will tell us how they got it and what they used and all the rest of it.
		But a new picture of Sidonia.
		It's at EnterpriseMission.com.
		You ought to be on the way there already.
		And you should be going to the area I said.
		There's a link down there.
		It says the light finally dawns at Sidonia.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You like the title?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
		So when, what took it?
		What mode was the satellite in?
		From what distance?
		And blah, blah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, oddly enough, this was released.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it was taken over a year ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it takes them that long to kind of release these things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They probably feel like they have to have it in a desk drawer for a period of time to age it properly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was taken on the one-year anniversary, exactly on the one-year anniversary of the arrival of the Mars Odyssey spacecraft at Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And these guys remember, they're into dates and anniversaries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you say.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, in their own published data, they took this on October 24, 2002, which was one year after they arrived.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Exactly one year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They'd probably take it at 19.5 minutes after the hour in your honor or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So anyway, one year after the satellite went up, they'd take the photo.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, the thing that struck me was I was in Roswell the weekend that they actually released this image.
		They released it around July 4th.
		And I had never gone to Roswell.
		I wanted to take Robin down there and see a few friends, you know, like Paul Davids was going to be there and Larry Landsman from sci-fi.
		And I'd never been part of the Roswell circus.
		So while I'm there, kind of taking a vacation, they released this picture.
		So I get back and I get caught up on email and someone sent me some links and said, take a look at this.
		And what was unusual, first of all, is that it was the first morning shot of Sidonia we've ever had.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And showing with light on the eastern side.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		On the eastern side of the face and other structures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so you might explain to the audience, the sun actually on Mars at the moment this is taken really is not over the horizon.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Well that's if you if you go and look at the logs that they're required by law to post, if you go to the ASU website, Arizona State University website, which is the university team actually running the camera on the Mars Odyssey spacecraft, they have a website which is linked through Enterprise.
		And you can go to the actual page in the article that you have cited.
		We have extensive links to all the official information so that everybody can follow the bouncing ball.
		There's nothing here, no sleight of hand, no magic, no hidden stuff.
		We're laying out what they have given the American people and the world.
		So I went to their official website and I'm looking at this picture, first dawn image of Sidonia.
		And the first thing that rings a bell is when I look at the very bottom of the data block, it says Sidonia face at night.
		How the heck can you take a picture with this camera at night?
		They have trouble taking pictures when the sun is fairly low above the horizon.
		How the heck can they take it at night?
		So I looked a little closer, and in the data block, there's a whole bunch of angles listed.
		You know, the sub-spacecraft point, where the sun is, you know, the angle that the spacecraft is rolled to the ground, all that stuff.
		And there's one little line that says phase angle, which is the angle between the sun, the surface, and the camera, which read 90.304 degrees.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the sun then, that would put the sun then just below the horizon.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Below the horizon.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Three-tenths of a degree below the horizon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so then what in the hell is the story with this picture?
		I mean, obviously the entire eastern side of the face is lit up like it's made out of damned aluminum foil.
		I mean, it's impossible or not, I guess.
		Has anybody toyed with this photograph in any way?
		If so, in what way?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is from what's called the official archive.
		You know, there's a whole procedure of putting things into the planetary data system.
		And when things pop up on these websites, we're not supposed to believe the PR versions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're telling me this hasn't been toyed with.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is exactly as they have given it to us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got to be kidding.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And there are five bands represented from the near-infrared through the violet.
		You pick three of them.
		You put red, green, and blue filters on them in essence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And you make yourself a pretty picture.
		And unlike the broadband filters in CCD television cameras or film, these are very narrowband filters.
		They're one micron wide, more or less.
		So they're basically scientifically isolating the way the light is interacting with the ground much more precisely than a normal color picture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's what's hitting me, and I could be wrong about this, but I think what we're seeing is the areas that we previously regarded as those that were damaged.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Damaged, right?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In other words, that was the general consensus.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, just kind of a general consensus.
		If you imagined the face to be whole and complete, then you would look at the areas that we're now looking at as kind of damaged areas.
		Who knows, meteorites, whatever it is that did damage to the face originally, if you buy the fact that it was a full face at one time.
		These were then the damaged areas.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		When the 2001 image came out a couple years ago, the famous full face image, you and I have such.
		By the way, Art, you know, I've been listening to you for years.
		I have known you for even more years.
		I'm about the only guy that you really argue with.
		Normally, you're come on.
		You give a lot of your guests a chance to just lay out their story.
		But you and I, either consciously or unconsciously, have decided that it's much more interesting if we really confront those things we don't agree with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe it's just that you're fun to argue with.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Maybe that's true, too.
		And likewise.
		Back when that first full-face image was released in 2001, you took one look at it and told me to go into Storm Windows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, basically, I said it's a cat box.
		It's got about as much interest as my cat box on a full day.
		And that was exactly correct.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You did not see what we saw, and a lot of other people saw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which is that, no, it's not symmetrical.
		But remember, back at the UN, 11, 12 years ago now, I said it was not symmetrical.
		I said there were two different species represented from the western to the eastern half.
		And 99.98% of the other people looking at Sidonia seriously, people like Ben Flandern and a whole bunch of others, they have been, Carlado comes to mind, they had been expecting a symmetrical or close to symmetrical representation, and I think that's what you expected too.
		When it did not look symmetrical or anything close to it, you guys threw your hands up and said, oh my God.
		Now, you threw it up in one way.
		They threw it up in another way.
		They had the damaged side preserved side hypothesis.
		And everybody thought that the eastern side, the side on the right, was the damaged side.
		We said in papers we published on Enterprise then that, no, guys, you got it exactly backward.
		It's the western side, the hominid side, the side toward the city, toward the pyramids, which is the damaged side.
		And it's the eastern side which has been protected and has preserved the original casing, whatever that was.
		Now we fast-forward the film to July of this year.
		Odyssey takes a picture precisely at the one moment of day art where you can decide the issue.

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