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April 3, 2001 - Art Bell

03:27:58

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Gilbert Lavoi - Shroud of Turin

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	Right decisions.
	On Newstalk 1230 WMFR you'll get more business news than any other radio station.
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	And.
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good
	evening and or good morning, wherever you may be across this great land of ours.
	We're on the island of Guam, way out there on the Pacific, across the state line, where it's actually a different day, to the Caribbean and the U.S.
	Virgin Islands.
	South all the way into South America, North to the Pole, and worldwide on the Internet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM, and I'm Marcel.
	Good morning.
	Well, I'd like to welcome WBBD in Wheeling, West Virginia.
	1,400 on the dial, normally rockin' and rollin' at this hour, but... Well, we'll be rockin' and rollin' just a different time.
	So, WBBD, Wheeling, West Virginia, glad to have you along.
	All right.
	There's so much, uh, where to begin?
	I guess... this way.
	We dodged a bullet yesterday.
	Earth dodged a bullet.
	That's the only way you can put it.
	The, um, the size of the solar flare that we had, had it hit Earth, had it been pointed at Earth directly, may have taken out all of our satellites.
	Or the majority of our satellites.
	May have taken my show off the air.
	Might have taken your HBO and cable and, uh, A direct satellite off the air.
	It was a mother.
	Let's see.
	Currently, we've just had an X-class flare.
	Whether or not it's from the same region, I don't know.
	Let me read you.
	Solar activity forecast.
	Solar activity expected to be high.
	Region 93-93.
	That's the big mother.
	Will continue to be a threat for major flares and put out events during the next three days.
	Although the probabilities will decrease as it rotates around the solar limb.
	Region 94-15 also clearly has shown major flare potential, is expected to be a source of M-class flares and probably additional isolated X-class flares.
	The forecast says geomagnetic field should increase to minor to major storm levels during the next 24 hours.
	Listen to this.
	The two recent CMEs, Coronal Mass Ejections from Region 93 and 93, are likely to have combined by now.
	And the size and possible partial earthward component of the second CME creates the expectation of some interaction at Earth.
	That would be us.
	The response is less certain than in the case of a full-halo CME and probably less dramatic than the result in the case of a direct hit.
	Head-on hit.
	I'm reading what they're saying.
	The forecast is for minor storm levels At the mid-latitudes with major storm levels at higher latitudes.
	So, you guys up north are going to have a nice show.
	Minor storm conditions expected to persist throughout the second day.
	This was really something.
	This was the biggest one they think they've ever recorded.
	Might have been an X-22, which would make it bigger than the X-20, which was gigantic back in 89.
	How well I remember that one.
	And so, Earth dodged a bullet.
	There's no other way to put it.
	We'll see.
	Uh, by the way, I talked with Major Ed Dames about, oh, I don't know, ten minutes before showtime.
	He'll be here Friday.
	And he said he's got some pretty grim news.
	Gonna be putting on his Dr. Doom hat.
	Well, he's never taken it off for me.
	He's tried a couple times, but...
	The news has always been bad, and he says this time it's really bad.
	He did not elucidate.
	We'll see.
	Well, the big story, I guess, is our airplane, huh?
	They're not giving it back.
	And I've been trying to... I've been watching the President and the way he's been... He addressed the nation.
	I'm sure you saw that, right?
	And I'm trying to figure out, from the way he's reacting, I'm sure that you're the same way, and we haven't learned how to read President Bush yet.
	Exactly.
	So I can't tell you what I read in his face when he's talking about it.
	It is time for our servicemen and women to return home, he said.
	There was a, you know, we got to meet with them and they're apparently in good shape.
	The crew is in good shape.
	Nobody knows about the pilot.
	I keep waiting to hear about that.
	And he says, you know, relationships between America and China will be damaged unless the American crew is returned quickly.
	And we want our airplane back too, by the way.
	And then there were other warnings from the administration about, and they better not be tearing into it.
	They better not be taking stuff off our airplane.
	Well, of course that's what they're doing.
	Anybody knows that.
	That's what we'd be doing.
	That's what we've done.
	Anybody who has a windfall of an airplane coming right down into their territory can always claim it was in their airspace, and they can always take it apart and look at it.
	It's high-tech U.S.
	stuff, and the Chinese like high-tech U.S.
	stuff, so, you know, they're pouring over it right now.
	Probably taking out little pieces and parts.
	Wouldn't want to be the person trying to fly that home.
	Assuming we get it back.
	Earthquake in Japan.
	Central part of Japan.
	Late Tuesday.
	Injured six.
	Just hours after another quake.
	Well, these quakes and sunspots and flares go together as far as I'm concerned.
	They always have.
	Our stock market.
	Sheesh!
	The Dow fell almost 300 points.
	The Nasdaq 100 plus.
	Really, really getting to be rough on Wall Street.
	And by the way, you may recall, Sean David Morton made a prediction with regard to the stock market.
	And it was date-specific.
	Basically, Sean said if the Nasdaq were to go below $1,700, we may be in for a very, very hard economic period.
	Well, the Nasdaq closed at $1,672.
	John in Tampa, Florida says, how about an update from Sean?
	You know, I kind of thought the same thing.
	So maybe we'll dial Sean up toward the bottom of the hour and ask him if this Nasdaq closing fits
	with his prediction.
	And if so, what does it mean?
	Well, one thing's for sure.
	The Nasdaq can't fall $2,000 more.
	I can't crawl 2,000 more.
	I watched the guys on MSNBC, and some of them are pretty funny.
	I like the guy with the longer hair.
	And he was sort of pulling it out today, and he was saying, you know, I'm really fed up with all this.
	I can't watch the market anymore.
	I'm going to go fishing.
	I forget what he said.
	I'm going somewhere.
	You can do the reporting, but I've sort of had it.
	I mean, he's so depressed.
	He always was one to dig down and find, you know, the few companies, even on a bad day, that are doing really well and promote that because he's a positive kind of guy.
	But he's like he's had it.
	He's going to go fishing.
	We don't want to report on it anymore.
	Well, again, reporting on this, because here it comes again.
	Two of three cloned calves, under the care of university researchers, have died in recent weeks, causing another delay in the race to clone livestock for commercial use.
	Researchers at California State University Chico believe the two calves died from an intestinal infection.
	Such immune problems are common in cloned calves.
	Well, you know, I don't know if I'm happy about science getting ready to clone animals that we might eat, for example.
	Why?
	I mean, what's the matter with the old process of... Well, you know the old process, right?
	We all know the old process.
	What's the matter with that?
	Why do we have to clone?
	Maybe they'll, you know, it'll turn out that their immune systems are wrong and they're not good to eat, and now they're gonna clone human beings, and I just don't know about all of this.
	I think we are rushing in where angels fear to tread.
	I just don't think we ought to do it.
	I don't think we ought to do it.
	Yet.
	And then here, this story is back to, again, I get it, today.
	It's a big, apparently pretty big story.
	Uh, for Yeti hunters and Yeti fanciers.
	Bigfoot.
	Uh, the headline is, Yeti's hair defies DNA analysis.
	By Mark Henderson, science correspondent.
	British scientists on the trail of the Yeti have found some of the best evidence yet for the existence of the mythical Himalayan creature.
	A sample of hair that is now proven impossible to identify.
	Genetic tests on the hair, which was gathered from a tree, have failed to match its DNA to that of any known animal.
	So, what do we have?
	Alright, listen, we're gonna take a break here.
	I've got a little more and then we'll have an open line.
	and stay right where you are.
	Are you afraid of losing more money in today's markets?
	Well, I don't blame you.
	I really don't.
	I mean, look at the Dow and the Nasdaq today.
	Anyway, you don't have to be in fear.
	There is a way to protect your investments, but you need to know where to look and what to buy.
	Please listen very carefully.
	The most important aspect of investing is diversification.
	We all know that.
	But what you may not know is, at today's levels, gold has a 20% profit already built in.
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	All right on my website right now another UFO photograph that I'm sending to all you
	pixel people with love.
	This one is pretty pretty interesting.
	It comes from Asmodeus, who writes, if Phil Craft is right, then this just may be a burdened ship.
	Now, it's a photograph taken in Texas in 1990.
	And you're looking down a long, dirt road, with trees on either side, to give you a reference in the photograph.
	And here's this incredibly large UFO way down there.
	Again, with reference in the foreground of the trees, there's the UFO way down there.
	Looks pretty good to me.
	I'm sure the pixel people will rip it apart as usual.
	Interesting thing, of course, is that the pixel people have ripped apart photographs that are absolutely genuine.
	Makes me wonder about them.
	They have done that.
	But, nevertheless, I turn it over to you for your perusal.
	And, uh, uh, whatever you wish to do with it.
	Another UFO.
	What a big UFO.
	Now, the electricity shortage in California.
	This is worth considering.
	There's a fellow named Angelo Arvaniz, I believe?
	Anyway, Angelo, when rolling blackouts hit the state of January, Angelo got rid of one of his two walk-in freezers.
	February and March, when state officials announced utility rate hikes for residents and businesses, he replaced his air conditioner, ran it only a few hours a day.
	Still, the Riverside County businessman knows that he faces a very long hot summer in the desert after the California Public Utilities Commission announced a 42% electricity hike.
	Well, right-o.
	He said, my bill has gone from, get this folks, $900 to $1,400.
	Got a restaurant, right?
	Even with all the conservation steps, and it's not even summer.
	This is what I wonder about, folks.
	It really is.
	He goes on, what am I going to do when it hits 100, 110, 120 degrees?
	I have to run the air conditioner, said.
	I'm probably going to have to close for the summer, this restaurant, right?
	Close it.
	It just simply won't be worth it to stay open.
	Then I have to worry about my employees.
	How will they get by?
	And I, you know, I'm with him.
	It's a question that many residents and business owners are asking in this high desert community about 130 miles southeast of LA, where summer swelter can easily top 120 degrees.
	What are those people supposed to do?
	Isn't it likely going to turn some of those towns into ghost towns?
	I mean it.
	If you can't operate a business, if you can't afford to keep your house cool, In the summertime, if it becomes so expensive, then you're going to pick up sticks and go somewhere else.
	Get me out of here, right?
	And what are we going to end up with?
	We're going to end up with ghost towns.
	Speaking of ghosts, they're not exactly ghosts.
	They're shadow people.
	And this is driving me absolutely insane.
	I have no idea what to do about this.
	I now have over 3,500 emails.
	And as you know, the minute I open up the lines, I'm going to start getting shadow people calls.
	This is something, it's the proverbial can of worms.
	Really big can, I'll tell you.
	One fellow called up, talked about the shadow people that he could see in peripheral vision, corner of his eye kind of stuff.
	We began a small discussion about it that began, it absolutely became a tidal wave of faxes and emails and phone calls and all of a sudden everybody, it's like everybody who had been holding back decided they're not going to hold back anymore.
	And they're out there saying, by God, you know, I've seen those things too.
	A lot of them not in peripheral vision, but straight on.
	And so I don't know what to do about this.
	I'm still looking for an expert in shadow people.
	I know that Brad Steiger, I am reminded by some of you, wrote a little bit about shadow people somewhere.
	So I could ask Brad.
	But this is so, is so overwhelming.
	I don't know what to... And by the way, Ed Dames, if you're listening, and you have time, Between now and the program on Friday, do me a favor, will you, and remote view the Shadow People.
	As a concept, remote view the Shadow People.
	Everybody's seeing them!
	Everybody!
	And, well, that's an exaggeration, but when I get 3,500 emails on one subject, like that, all of a sudden you know that somebody lit the fuse out there somewhere.
	It's an explosion that was getting ready to happen.
	Gordon in Portland, Oregon writes Yo art we are lucky to see the shadow people as they're out
	taking their pet rods for a walk Their pet rods
	Indeed.
	Then, maybe some of you can help me out with this.
	Arn, I had a question about a past show.
	I do not recall the exact date, but I think it was last month.
	You were doing a show on time travel.
	Had a guest who said that he was from the year 2004 or something like that, around there.
	You asked him what we could expect from the future.
	I always do.
	For some reason, I recall him saying that the China problems will worsen, and he said something about a plane crash.
	I was wondering if you recall the caller and what was said.
	And the answer is no, I don't.
	You know what?
	I don't.
	I don't recall the caller specifically.
	We have a lot of predictions made here.
	Some about China.
	But if he said something about an airplane, I am interested.
	So if any of the rest of you remember the specifics of that, whether it hits what has happened here, I'd like to know.
	Hey Art, remember the slip on your show that you detected after watching CNN?
	Remember the night Mirror was going down and one of the Russians said, maybe I'll see you on Mirror too?
	Well guess what folks, the Russian government is considering building a successor to the recently abandoned Mirror Space Station, although there is no money to do it now, according to a top Cabinet official, Deputy Prime Minister, gave no details of the possible Mir 2, saying only that Russia's participation in the 16-nation International Space Station provides a technical base for building a new Russian station.
	He said the U.S.-led international project would remain Russia's top priority.
	Mir's demise in the South Pacific After a record-setting 15 years in orbit, was bemoaned by many Russian politicians and cosmonauts as the end of Soviet aerospace might.
	So, they're saying that they might build a Mir-2.
	That'd be about 400 million dollars, bottom line.
	You know, discount price Mir-2.
	400 million.
	But they can't afford that.
	They don't have the money.
	And yet, you'll recall the cosmonaut, as I caught, immediately saying, well maybe I'll see you on Mirror 2.
	And I said, what?
	What Mirror 2?
	And this from England, this tale apparently proves that crime does pay.
	If you're fishing for elective surgery to go along with your stolen goods, get this folks, A 24-year-old supermarket shoplifter stuffed five lobsters in his pants and sprinted for the door, but he never had a chance.
	The violated crustaceans brought the thief to his knees in front of startled cashiers when they fastened their powerful claws about his delicate parts.
	Doctors were able to remove the animals with pliers!
	They say the thief will fully recover, except for one more detail.
	It was a do-it-yourself asectomy.
	This man's daring supermarket exploits make him one of the few Darwin Award winners to live and tell the tale.
	The supermarket manager declined press charges.
	Saying why the culprit has already gone through enough pain to learn his lesson.
	Five pissed off lobsters in your pants.
	bad idea.
	I don't think he'll be alright, but I can hear him.
	I don't think he'll be alright, but I can hear him.
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	We have Larry Craven and Judy Mendenhall with the Chamber of Commerce Show each Wednesday at 9 to keep you up-to-date on local business news.
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	A Canadian study suggests that women who breastfeed...
	Hi, I'm Lucinda Bassett, founder of the Midwest Center for Stress and Anxiety.
	I suffered with anxiety and depression and panic attacks for over 20 years.
	I was afraid of everything.
	My thoughts.
	Losing control.
	Embarrassing myself.
	Death and dying.
	I was totally consumed with worry.
	But I didn't know that these symptoms were from anxiety and depression.
	I believe I suffered with anxiety and depression all those years so that I could help other people do what I've done.
	Recover completely.
	Our program is sponsored by...
	...the people of the world.
	And read the name of his latest flame.
	He talked and talked, and I heard him say...
	...that she had the longest, floppiest hair...
	...the prettiest green eyes anywhere.
	And read the name of his latest flame.
	Though I smiled at tears inside of her brain...
	...I wished him long and very sad goodbye.
	He was gone, but still his words kept returning...
	...what else was there for me to do but cry?
	Would you wanna take a ride?
	Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-3-4.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	to the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	And to reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator.
	It's not like any other Presley song.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
	What is it about this song that just gets into my soul and stays there?
	It's not like any other Presley song.
	It's just, it's different enough that it just, I don't know, just one of those things that keeps going around in your
	head.
	We're going to check in with Sean David Morton in a moment because he made a prediction about the Nasdaq that has a lot of people pretty shaken, so we will ask him about that.
	From John in Delta, Colorado.
	Art, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather.
	Not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car.
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	There is little doubt.
	The weather continues to get worse.
	The severity and frequency of these super storms has been a topic of my program many times.
	Some of the most frightening predictions have been about the impact of global storms changing the surface of our Earth and directly affecting you.
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	That crackles us into the world of prophecy for a few moments here.
	Now, we had Sean David Morton on the show, and he made a specific prediction.
	I've got a... I've got a fax here from John in Tampa.
	Actually, email.
	According to Sean David Morton, The bottom of the Nasdaq was supposed to be around $1,780.
	Sean said that if the Nasdaq were to go below $1,700, we may be in for a very, very hard economic time.
	Well, the Nasdaq closed at $1,672.
	How about an update from Sean?
	Jon and Tampi also said, P.S., he calls it this Y-class sun flare.
	Has Precursor Event written all over it?
	I'm not a fatalist, I do try to be optimistic, but one thing I do not believe in is blind optimism.
	Optimism, you have to see the forest and the trees.
	Uh, so maybe we'll even ask about that, but here's Sean David Morton.
	Hi, Sean.
	Hi, Art.
	Great to be back with you.
	I certainly didn't think I'd be back on this soon, but... Well, I just wanted... Just a few minutes, Sean, because I wanted to ask you about The prediction you had made.
	He didn't have it quite right.
	What was the precise prediction?
	I'll make the exact quote, and I'll actually read it verbatim out of the February 21st, 2001, issue 68 of the Delphi Associates newsletter, where I said, and we talked about this on the 2nd of March on your show too, that as I write today, which was actually February 19th of 2001, the NASDAQ was at $2,346, And the Dow Jones Industrial Average was at 10,715.
	And I said, listen closely, the NASDAQ will continue a downward trend in the next six weeks through late March to early April, and the bottom of this projected wave will be around April 5th through the 17th.
	So we're off it by less than two days.
	Right.
	At this point, and April 5th through the 17th, 2001, And the barrier resistance line will be 1789.69.
	Now, interesting enough, just before I continue with the quote, on the 22nd of March, the NASDAQ actually bounced down to 1792, and then skyrocketed back up again.
	So I only missed it by about 2.31, and skyrocketed back up to about 200 or so.
	Right.
	So to continue the quote, at this point, one of two things will happen.
	And you would be foolish indeed not to pay attention to what I'm about to say.
	If the NASDAQ continues down below 1700, which of course it did today, literally just two days before my projected low for this, which is the barrier resistance line for this wave, in other words, the floor, the cellar, the tank, the sewer, we are in major trouble and nothing anyone can do is going to save the massive bust in tech stocks.
	This will be the beginning of the Silicon Valley Dust Bowl, the computer depression of the 21st century, Hordes of jobless internet geeks and slick software salesmen
	will be roaming the streets, turning over coffee machines at Starbucks, pawning a Rolex's,
	BMW's, and Razor scooters and ransacking comic book stores.
	And I go on to say my own brother didn't listen to me.
	Oh gosh.
	And you'll actually remember too that in, all the way back I think in 1998 where I talked
	about the October 2000 stock market crash.
	What was your brother heavily in tax?
	Oh, man.
	My brother was in, uh, he had, uh, huge shares in a company called Interwoven, and he lost about two million bucks.
	By the way, your phone has big-time hum on it.
	Oh, it does?
	Yes.
	Okay, I'm sorry.
	Let me see if I can fix this.
	I'm on the good phone, actually, so, uh... That's the good phone?
	Yeah, that's the good phone.
	I'll try the other one.
	Is this better?
	Uh, yeah, I can hear the hum, too.
	I'm sorry.
	Maybe you can fix it at the break, but, uh... Uh, no problem.
	Uh, there is no break.
	I already did the break.
	Oh, okay.
	Um, anyway, the whole point of this is that I had two scenarios of this.
	The second scenario, which was less depressing and more optimistic and more likely, and I'll just continue the quote here, because once again, this is from the February 21st newsletter.
	The NASDAQ hits the barrier line of $17.89 in April.
	First quarter earnings are announced which will not be as bad as expected and it begins a gradual zigzagging sideways motion back upwards.
	Also new advances in genetics and biostocks including new configurations for computers and revelations about new super broadband transmission speeds will be announced.
	This year will be future shock whiplash all the way.
	These truly incredible new techniques will fuel the NASDAQ recovery and it should hit the projected high for this year of 4,117.19 Late September or October.
	The only problem is that the first scenario seems to be taking effect.
	Yeah, that's the problem.
	Right, and that's the first scenario which was below $1,700.
	This is what I think is happening, and it's very interesting because the financial markets very much connect into your show and a lot of the things that you talk about on this program.
	I mean, this is the physical reality of the technological advances that are about ready to occur Internet broadband speeds, nanotechnology, computer transmissions, and all of the stuff that seems to be, we're right on the edge of downloading a huge amount of information from the black ops shadow world of places like the Department of Naval Intelligence, the National Reconnaissance Office, the NRO,
	And our little grey buddies out of Area 51.
	Yeah, the Chinese are downloading new information, too.
	A massive amount of it.
	And there is usually about a 10-year lag.
	And if you remember, you know, way back in the good old days, in 1990, 1991, when we were talking about the DNA supercomputers and the computers out of Area 51 that they called the BEAST computers.
	Oh, sure.
	Battle engagement, area simulation, tracking, etc., etc.
	This is what I think is happening with the market right now.
	I think that what's going on is that we're seeing a carefully manipulated collapse of a series of these big company stocks directly into the sewer, right before the release of the next echelon of super-advanced high technology.
	So all of the spooky stuff that comes out of Area 51 that's about to be downloaded into the public sector by companies like Omnigon, Soterra, Connection Technologies, All of these companies have become fronts for very, very high-level organizations.
	For example, ConnectTech.
	Back-engineered technology.
	Back-engineered technology that specifically has to do with things like the broadband speed transmission.
	Just to give you an idea.
	The connection technologies, you can actually find them on the web at connecttech.com.
	These guys are sort of like the front garage for the National Security Agency.
	These guys sell everything from engines to wiring to super-advanced carburetors, all kinds of wild stuff that the NSA basically just downloads out into the public sector.
	The other thing is, too, is that when you have a company like, for example, a company like Omnigon that's about ready to go public, this company has gone from about $6 a share to literally like $0.24 a share.
	Now, what better way, when you're about to introduce a new technology, Uh, then to basically collapse your stocks to the point of where they're virtually useless, core the market on your own technology, and then turn around and release the next phase into the public sector.
	It seems as though With these companies, and to give you an example, with a company like... There's too many million investors to just sort of decide to collapse the market.
	I mean, how do you do that?
	There's millions of people investing, actually now, and losing in taxes.
	Yeah, losing substantially.
	So many millions of people, but how do you orchestrate anything?
	Well, there are a lot of reasons why the stock market's been dropping, and I think none of them have anything to do with what Clinton did for eight years, or George Bush.
	I think the biggest factor Is that Alan Greenspan, since the crash of 92, instituted a totally illegal, what he called his plunge protection team, to rig the market and huge sums of cash, resulting in high and the horribly unstable market we've had.
	Sounds like a version of the plumbers or something.
	Exactly, right.
	And that coupled with the U.S.
	government's reluctance to rein in a whole series of unscrupulous financial practices Uh, such as pooling, that basically led to this extremely unstable market.
	Okay, but in a way, you're telling me you're personally optimistic, but your prophecy, on the other hand, was pretty specific with regard to the number, and it did close at 1672, so, um, separate personal optimism from actual prophecy.
	Alright, this is what I think is going to occur.
	The market in general, what's happened is that they've basically shaken out all the dot-com suckers.
	That you basically You know, I think the most interesting effect of this is, remember all those stadiums all across the country that are, you know, 3Com Park and DotCom this and that?
	Qualcomm, yeah.
	Those are going to go the way of the dinosaur.
	They're already scrambling to find different names.
	You might be able to buy one cheap, Art.
	It could be, the Packers might be playing in Art Bell Stadium pretty soon.
	Why would that be cool?
	No, actually, I wouldn't want a stadium.
	Anyway, so you think that you're personally optimistic, but with regard to this specific prophecy, can it happen?
	In other words, let me put it like this.
	Here's the best way to put it.
	The first thing that's going to happen is that the financial markets are going to do very well.
	I still, in my prediction, I believe that as the NASDAQ began to tank, that the DAX would go quack and the Dow would go wow, as they say, the trend being your friend.
	That the best investments right now, there's a whole stack of them, is to get, obviously those who did not listen to me before, and get out of the NASDAQ, the best way to go is to get into the financial markets.
	I think that Greenspan, when the Fed finally meets in May, is going to cut interest rates even further.
	I think you're going to see the interest rates, and I'll make a wild prediction here, but you'll see interest rates go down to between 4 and 4.25%.
	You know, the Japanese are at zero.
	Uh, yeah.
	I've never heard of an economy going to zero interest rates, but they're at zero.
	They've cut everything to try to basically try to stop the slide in their economy.
	Um, there's a whole number of reasons why they can do that because their social security system is linked directly into Uh, their savings and loans.
	So, they have an entire system, which, strange enough, was actually set up by Douglas MacArthur.
	Anyway, bottom line, you think the markets are going to be okay?
	They're going to start zig-zagging and go back up again?
	Let me say this about the NASDAQ.
	The NASDAQ in the next, watch it the next three weeks.
	If in the next three weeks, we see the NASDAQ climb in a steady sideways path back up to about $1,800 or so, then I think that the NASDAQ will be okay.
	I think that the Dow Jones will continue to go up if people invest in financial stocks like JP Morgan, Washington Mutual... Right, but if the Nasdaq doesn't go up, then what?
	Then we're looking at, once again, I think about 60 to 75% of the major computer companies and dot-com companies will be bought up by the majors like Microsoft and Cisco Systems, and that those are still going to be your best bets.
	That now is actually an excellent time to invest in certain companies like Cisco Systems, Corning because of fiber optics, Microsoft is far from finished, Walmart is going to be a great investment.
	There's got to be a lot of good buys out there right now.
	A ton!
	I'm saying that what's happening is that everybody realized finally that Yahoo was simply not worth as much as Texaco, obviously.
	And I've been saying this for a long time, that as the NASDAQ begins to collapse, that there are certain fabulous buys That if the market begins to climb out of a hole... Yeah, but right now, I'll be the fatalist here.
	Right now, a lot of people who took a bath in the Nasdaq are selling their regular stocks, their blue chip stocks, to cover margins in the techs.
	I still see it as a... The only thing I can say is that the markets aren't finished.
	The big... Oh, no, they're not finished.
	The big end of the wave that I see, I mean, if you really want the dire prediction, the end of the wave, this whole ride, Happens about 2005.
	And I've been on your show over and over and over again talking about how the market was going to go to, you know, just under $12,000.
	I mean, I said that years ago when the market was at like $6,000.
	You did say that, that's right.
	And I mean, the markets, I think the Dow Jones will still climb back up to by October of, well, I'd say the spring of next year by 2002.
	I think we'll see the Dow Jones back around well over 12,000.
	I think we'll see it at about 13,100 or so.
	Wow.
	The big collapse is going to come in 2005.
	Every single indicator that I've seen, every Elliott Wave I've done, every chart I've done, has everything hitting a wall in 2005.
	Alright.
	Listen, one other quick thing, maybe you have nothing to say on this, but yesterday Earth dodged a bullet.
	Oh yeah, yeah.
	We had a blast from the sun that perhaps was an X-22, biggest one they've ever seen since they've been recording these kinds of things, and it's like if it had been two days earlier, would have hit Earth, probably knocked out the majority of satellites and done a lot more damage, really would have clobbered the economy.
	Have you seen anything at all about the sun?
	Well, absolutely, because the financial markets are all related directly back to the sun,
	because the sun controls the most primal function in the human body, which is the limbic system.
	The entire markets and all economies run on two basic principles, greed and fear.
	And what happens is when people get greedy, they buy.
	When they get afraid, they sell.
	And what happens at a solar, whenever you have usually a massive solar ejecta,
	it triggers something in the limbic system of the brain, and you have these massive collapses in the market.
	And for the last few years, as we've seen, I mean, there's a reason why the market is as huge as it is.
	Maybe people have a primal fear about the sun doing this because at some time in our distant past, something came along from the sun and wiped out a lot of life.
	Maybe.
	And maybe we have some sort of genetic memory of some event in the past.
	There's a lot of strange things going on and I'm sure you've seen I remember as far back as 1996 when Palladian contactee, Audrien, told me that the Palladians were doing something with the sun and showed me a series of photographs that he claimed to have actually taken on a craft that had the sun in the background with the Palladians.
	He said we're somehow fixing the magnetic field of the sun and that the sun would get, that without this the sun would get completely out of control right around 2000, 2001 or so.
	And now with a lot of the, as a matter of fact I'm Working on two parts of the newsletter right now.
	I'm working on sort of a UFO section which shows a series of photos from the SOHO satellite that then are compared to a series of Pleiadian spacecraft that are supposed to be around the sun fixing it.
	You actually see the SOHO photos with these craft of the same shape.
	And I'm also working on everything that I think people should be buying right now that if they're selling out of the market or if they got out of the market when they told them to get out, then they're sitting pretty.
	Uh, but I'm putting everything together right now as far as, uh, a whole series of analysis of what I think is not only going to survive, uh, but what I think is going to thrive.
	Alright, well plug your newspaper, uh, uh, newsletter.
	How do you get your newsletter?
	It's called the Delphi Associates Newsletter.
	There's a lot of ways you can order it.
	We have an 800 number.
	Uh, the 800 number is 888, that's 888-452-7999, 888-452-7999.
	The 800 number is 888-888-452-7999.
	You can order it off our website if you go to www.delphiassociates.org.
	Actually, you can just go to ArtBell.com also, and there's a link directly to our website.
	That's right.
	ArtBell.
	That's right.
	And you can go to the shopping cart there and order it, or you can send us a check.
	It's $60 for a one-year, 12-month subscription, which is a hell of a deal when you figure about that the best financial analysts out there charge anywhere from $1,000 to $1,500 for their newsletter, and I beat them every single time.
	Uh, so, you know, it's a $60 deal.
	We also have an honor to elder discount, uh, goes over $65 or, uh, for $45 or we give the newsletter actually free to anybody that's indigent, uh, seriously handicapped, uh, sick or incarcerated.
	So, you know, we're, we're not trying to, uh, we're not trying to squeeze anybody.
	And also, um, uh, let me see, 888-452-7999.
	You can order off the website where you can send us a check to, uh, PRI, Prophecy Research Institute.
	And our address is 2207.
	Hermosa Avenue, H-E-R-M-O-S-A.
	That's Hermosa Beach, California, 90254, PRI 2207, Hermosa Avenue, H-E-R-M-O-S-A, Hermosa
	Beach, California, 90254.
	And we are a religious educational organization, so all subscriptions to the newsletter are
	All right, Sean, thank you, my friend.
	All right, thank you.
	I hope to be back on the show for a little bit longer, so I'll talk to you soon, but I really appreciate the chance, and go get them, pal.
	You're doing great.
	All right, thank you.
	Take care, Sean.
	That's Sean David Morton.
	We'll have him back, of course, into the whole show, but I just, because of the fact that the NASDAQ did hit figure that he was talking about, I thought it wise to get the word from him, and I'm not sure about what I just heard.
	I guess.
	Why am I not sure about what I just heard?
	In other words, the prophecy could go as predicted below 1700, as it went below 1700.
	But I think he just said, watch it the next couple of weeks.
	If it makes sideways up moves, then it'll continue up to about 1800, he said.
	I think that sums it up.
	I'm Art Bell.
	66 years.
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	If everything written in the Bible is real?
	to call out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	Have you ever wondered if Jesus was real?
	If everything written in the Bible is real?
	But especially whether the man, Son of God, Jesus, in the flesh, walked on Earth.
	Have you wondered about that?
	I sure have.
	Boy, have I wondered.
	I mean, is there any greater question?
	Probably not.
	Not in importance, not in the long run, because, you know, we're all here for the short run.
	Tonight, Dr. Gilbert Lavoie is my guest, and he has been researching the Shroud of Turin, and he says that he can prove That not only is the shroud real, that the carbon dating is wrong, but that it was Christ, indeed Christ.
	That image was Christ, the one of the Bible, the Son of God.
	And that's who we're going to be talking to here in a moment.
	He's a native of Springfield, Massachusetts, graduated from Boston College, And, uh, the Medical College of Virginia.
	He then attended Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, earning an MPH in internal, uh, international medicine, actually.
	He is an internist, by the way.
	Dr. Lavoie served two years in the U.S.
	Army as Chief of Epidemiology and of the European Command in Germany.
	I'm reading this from his website because it's a little too wide to print out.
	He then participated in the World Health Organization's smallpox eradication program, working in Bangladesh, board certified in internal medicine.
	Dr. Lavoie practiced internal medicine in the Boston area for many years.
	In 1990, he began working in occupational medicine and earned his boards in occupational medicine in 1977.
	So he's a mainstream doctor, folks.
	He's a recognized international authority on the Shroud of Turin.
	An international authority on the Shroud of Turin.
	For the last 22 years, he has pursued a medical and scriptural study of the shroud, which some believe to be the burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth.
	Now, I'm not going to go on reading, because it's a little hard reading directly from the website, but we have photographs on our website, as he does on his, that will track with the story we're telling.
	So you might want to log on to my website right now at www.artbell.com.
	And, uh, there will be several options for you there.
	We've taken a little bit of care in tonight's program, uh, so that we could be sure you would all see these photographs.
	We have links, uh, of course, to, uh, The Good Doctor's website.
	The book is Resurrected, Tangible Evidence that Jesus Rose from the Dead.
	The photographs that we're going to look at tonight are the first item we've got listed.
	We've got those on our website right now, multiple servers.
	Exhibits of the Shroud, those would be the photographs.
	They're also available on his website, which is called the Shroud of Jesus.
	And so all of that is up there right now.
	I suggest you begin making your way toward my website at www.artbell.com.
	You're welcome to go to his website.
	The only reason we put up photographs on ours is so that just in case, I mean,
	We have killed our share of websites, you know.
	We want you to be able to see those photographs one way or the other.
	So coming up in a moment, Dr. Lavoie.
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	The website is mysafetykit.com Alright, now to Dr. LaVoy, to Boston, and Dr. LaVoy, who's
	up real late, because it's after 2 o'clock in the morning in Boston, I guess.
	Doctor, welcome.
	Nice to be with you, Art.
	Uh, happy to have you.
	I am, I guess I should start by telling you that I'm, uh, well, what am I?
	I, I, I really don't know what I am.
	I, I doubt that I could be called, I would be called a Christian by most Christians.
	I tend not to believe things that I can't lay my hands on, and I have proof for.
	I have a hard time making a leap of faith, which is necessary, I've always felt, to be a good Christian.
	And I just wanted you to know that up front.
	I guess I'm agnostic.
	I don't know.
	I don't know what I am.
	I'm something in the middle.
	Something weird.
	You are a Christian.
	Correct?
	Yes, that's correct.
	But there must be a little bit of me in you.
	Because you took off on a scientific journey.
	To try and figure out if the Shroud was real.
	So, I mean, there must be a little of me and you.
	Why not just take the usual leap of faith required by Christians and stop there?
	Why pursue... Why did you begin to pursue this, is what I'm asking?
	Well, you're right.
	I did a little bit of Me and you, because from the point of view of looking at The Shroud, I was really a skeptic when I started.
	And I actually, I read a book about The Shroud many years ago.
	I was in college, I was in pre-med, and I saw a book called The Doctor Calvary by Dr. Pierre Barbet.
	And I read that book.
	It was the first time I had heard about The Shroud.
	I was fascinated by it.
	And then I forgot about it until 1978 when I was In practice of medicine and in Boston and I opened the Boston Globe and there was a picture of the shroud and I decided to I talked to my wife about it we decided we go and just take a look at it and I was fascinated what I saw there but when I came back I was still definitely a skeptic and approached this from definitely a scientific point of view I don't need the shroud for my faith in the sense of a
	Well, my faith is one thing, but the Shroud was entirely different.
	Well, maybe it's worth asking why a physician, and you guys in internal medicine, you're really busy.
	Why would a physician, even a Christian, take off on this quest in the first place?
	I mean, what drove you to this?
	I think as a physician that was really, because of my background, I was fascinated with the blood marks and so forth that were on this clot.
	And that's what sort of, I really approached this as a physician you might say, looking at a patient at the bedside.
	You know, we were sort of investigative types.
	We presented with a problem.
	And we have to find out the answer, generally for the welfare of the patient, of course.
	But from this point of view, it seemed like a medical mystery.
	What were these blood marks?
	Were they real?
	And so forth.
	In fact, when I started, the first thing I did is I went to see, this is 1978-79, I went to see Dr. Ernst Kitzinger at the Harvard University.
	He was just about ready to retire.
	He's one of the foremost experts on icons.
	And I went to him, and you'll see my skepticism, and I said, How could, uh, was there a painter who had done paintings like this or painted blood like we see on the Shroud of Turin?
	And I was very surprised when he told me and informed me that the Shroud of Turin was absolutely unique in the world.
	It did not fall into any artistic category at all.
	That I could look all I wanted, but I would never find a blood painted like the Shroud of Turin in any paintings.
	Uh, and indeed he was right, as I looked, I found absolutely nothing like this.
	Do we know that's blood?
	Yes.
	Uh, it's, uh, in 1978, uh, the SHRP group, uh, which is a group from, uh, of American scientists, about, um, three, or three American scientists, Went over, and what they did is they placed sticky tapes on the cloth.
	They placed it over the image area, over the blood area, and over just non-image areas and non-blood areas.
	That's what police forensics do, right?
	Right.
	They, they, they, well, I'm, I'm, I'm not a, I'm not a police forensic person, but I imagine they would do that.
	I watched the OJ trial.
	They were talking about swatches.
	You remember that?
	Yes.
	Swatching.
	That would be it, yeah.
	I avoided that trial.
	Well, anyway, they talk about swatches.
	They have the forensics experts there, and so I would presume what you're talking about is sticky tape.
	They use these very special, you know, tapes to do this, and they brought back material.
	Now, Dr. Alan Adler, who I got to know very well, unfortunately he just recently died, is a chemist at Western Connecticut University.
	Not only was he a chemist, but he was an expert in porphyrins, which is part of the chemistry of blood.
	He did some exquisite studies on this, and proved without any doubt that what looks like blood on the shroud of Turin is indeed blood.
	And we'll talk about this as we go along, about blood and about image, because we're really talking about two phenomena here on the shroud.
	One is blood marks.
	And one is an image, and for the people that may be not familiar with the Shroud of Turin, the Shroud of Turin is a cloth that is 14 feet 3 inches long by 3 feet 7 inches wide, and on that cloth is the very faint image of the front and back of a naked man who's been both scourged and crucified in the same manner as Jesus.
	And as you mentioned, on my, you have it on, some of the pictures on your website, we just have about ten there.
	Right.
	And if somebody, if my website, which is shroudofjesus.com, shroudofjesus.com, that people can follow along if they have the opportunity.
	If not, we'll try to describe things as best we can.
	All right.
	Just one last question.
	14 feet 3 inches by 3 feet 7 inches.
	All right.
	One last question.
	If they were able to identify the fact that it was blood, was it, in fact, human blood?
	And were they actually able to type the blood or not?
	A researcher by the name of Milo Bologna in Italy has typed the blood.
	He states that it is type AB blood.
	AB?
	Yes.
	So that's where we are with that.
	Wow.
	Type AB blood.
	One other question.
	This may be out of your field, but if you can get... I'll tell you if I don't know.
	Alright, fine.
	If you can get blood and you can actually go so far as to type the blood to AB, then would there be recoverable DNA?
	Well, there was a group out of Texas that got some blood from the shroud.
	Unfortunately, they got it in a way that was not formal, through other means.
	And so, it isn't recognized by the church, the Catholic Church that actually owns the shroud at this point in time.
	Right.
	And they state that this was a, they did a DNA study on there stating that this was a male.
	Of course, you can just tell that by just looking at the shot itself.
	That doesn't give us really new information.
	People complain about that particular study because of how they got the blood, and some other people feel that, well, it could be a lot of contaminants on that clot.
	Which is true.
	So DNA...
	May not be the best way of approaching this problem, plus the fact that to know exactly who that person is, one would have to have a sample of Jesus' blood.
	Well, the only reason I even bring this up is I read a lot of science fiction, and I read a book that you may have read that indicated that if you could get the DNA of Jesus Aside from the wild cloning stuff going on right now, you might be able to determine whether the DNA of Jesus was human DNA all the way, or whether a man who worked miracles might have had some subtle, tiny difference in his DNA.
	That allowed what he did to occur.
	It's just a fascinating question, and I guess they don't have that kind of quality DNA to do that.
	You're probably right.
	Maybe they wouldn't have.
	I understand there's a lot of degradation of that blood that probably they don't have that kind of quality, but I can't be sure about that.
	All right, but it is blood, and it is AB negative blood.
	All right, fine.
	So now we come to the shroud.
	The first photograph is a generic kind of photograph, I guess, of the material of the shroud.
	Is that what we're looking at?
	Okay, on my website here.
	Yes.
	Okay, what we're...
	Okay, that first one is on your website.
	It's woven, it's like a woven... Yes, what you're seeing there is something that is really unique and that is sort of a... I'd like to sort of get to that point.
	Alright, go right ahead.
	What's happening there is that's actually...
	Uh, at 64 times magnification right over the nose.
	Uh, that particular, we're right, we're really deep into the cloth right over an image area.
	And, uh, I think probably one of the most fascinating things before we get there is really just to talk about, uh, and those images are sort of not in the order that probably would best be to approach this.
	Well, probably on my website, if people can get to it, shroudofjesus.com, or actually you have the two pictures there, a little further down, and that's the positive and negative picture of the man of the shroud, or let's say the face of the man of the shroud.
	You see those a little further down?
	Alright, now I'm on your website right now, so I made it, others can make it.
	Where should I go?
	I'm on the front page.
	Okay, let's go to question one.
	Question one, uh, how do we know the image is not a painting?
	Yes.
	Alright.
	I'm there and I'm waiting for something to come up, so I may have spoken too soon.
	Everybody's no doubt following along with me and we may be murdering your site right now.
	Wait a minute, something's coming.
	Yeah, how do we know the image is not a painting?
	The shroud image has a quality of a photographic negative.
	Boy, is it going to take a long time for all of this to come up.
	Doctor... On your website you have it there too.
	You've got these two pictures, a positive and negative face.
	Alright, I'm going back to my website because apparently yours has slowed way down.
	Okay.
	So, just tell me where to go on my site.
	Photo number... Alright, your site would be...
	Negative face.
	That would be, the negative face would be photo number 84.
	84.
	Okay, let's see.
	Sorry about the wait.
	Here it is.
	Okay, I'm there.
	I'm looking at it.
	Okay, well back in, let's go back to 1898 when the first photograph of the Shroud was taken.
	And what they, if What people saw was simply that particular face that you're looking at right now.
	A black and white of that.
	A black and white picture of that face.
	It's the only thing that anybody saw for centuries.
	In that particular face, something had happened in 1898.
	The first photograph was taken.
	It was taken by a man called Secundopia.
	And he didn't go there with his little camera, but he went there with a, in those days, a very large camera with a very large negative plate.
	And he took his picture of the shroud, of what you're looking at, not just the face, but the entire shroud.
	And then he went back to his darkroom, and when he did that, he was developing his negative plate.
	And all of a sudden, as he was developing his negative plate, he saw what looked like a positive image of a man, and that would be figure 85.
	Uh, oh my.
	You see now, this is just my side comment, that looks like the classical Jesus that we see depicted in churches on paintings on walls, and it's what we think Jesus looked like, essentially, isn't it?
	It is, and that's what a lot of work... I don't get into this in my book, Resurrected, but what it's believed is that this cloth was found... we have sort of a history of this cloth that brings us back into Constantinople, and we find there the beginning of iconography in pictures of Jesus, and there's Uh, there's a tremendous congruence of the pictures of Jesus to this shroud.
	And it is believed that, uh, by those who have done the studies, that they had this shroud available to them and they were copying it.
	Well, that would make sense.
	I mean, uh, usually, uh, these things start somewhere and this would be an obvious place, especially with the way it looks.
	So this is a positive rendition of the negative.
	Yes.
	And the, And Pia, at the time when he took that and saw this incredible positive image on a negative plate, he asked himself, how could there be a positive image on a negative plate?
	He didn't know why.
	And then he realized that what indeed was on the original shroud was a negative.
	These had negative qualities.
	And the question was, how could a negative image get onto an ancient cloth when photography was only invented in the 19th century?
	Because of this discovery, people began to study the shroud, and actually, there was a wave of interest around the turn of the century, 1902 or so, when this was all discovered.
	Scientists began to look into this, and men like Barbet in the 30s and 40s, who also started as a skeptic as I have, I came to study the Shroud and start looking at it from a medical point of view, which is the way that I look at it.
	Okay, Doctor, a real quick question, layman question, sorry about these, but just so I understand, whether it's carbon dating, which argues with what you believe, or what you believe, it doesn't make any difference at all, does it?
	In other words, if this was all, no matter what date you settle in on as the one you like, it predates photography, right?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	If you want to say it's a 14th century artifact, it's predated by 500 years.
	The Shroud of Jesus is predated by 2,000 years.
	All right, so whatever date you'd like to pick.
	No argument on all that then.
	All right, doctor, hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	That's a good place to break.
	Boy, you've got to see this.
	You look at the negative and then you look at the positive, photo number 85 on the website, on our website.
	And you will recognize this as every photograph you've ever seen of Jesus.
	I'm Art Bell.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	We have an internationally recognized expert on the Shroud of Turin here, Dr. Gilbert R. Lavoie.
	And we've got photographic evidence that you might want to follow along with on my website.
	You might try to make it to his website.
	You might make it.
	It's slowing up a little right now as thousands of you hit it.
	So, good luck.
	There's a lot more information on his website than there is on mine right now.
	We just got these ten photographs so that you might follow along just in case what's happening right now began to happen and his website began to slow down a little bit.
	My, my.
	There are a lot of you out there.
	A question about the negative to the positive on the Shroud of Turin in a moment.
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	Back now to Dr. Lavoie.
	Doctor, I'm gonna, I'm afraid I'm gonna ask some stupid layman-like questions, but going back to 84, the negative of the shroud, here's what I'm trying to understand.
	I think everybody knows if you have a negative, as a photographer, you can create a positive.
	And that's what was done here?
	So what is the surprise?
	You seem to suggest that how could there be a negative and a positive?
	I didn't quite understand that.
	Well, first of all, what you have is, if you have a negative, okay?
	Right.
	That concept of a negative really didn't come into existence until photography came, you know, was invented.
	That's right.
	You're correct.
	So, the fact that you have a negative on an ancient cloth, I mean, that's a very, that's a very fascinating phenomena.
	Of course.
	Because who would create a negative?
	Before even understanding what their negative image would be.
	Oh, they couldn't have.
	It would result in a positive.
	Oh, right.
	They couldn't have.
	So, there's no question about that.
	So, what you have is a negative on this shroud, and when you take a picture, instead of another negative, you go to the opposite.
	When you look at negatives, you're seeing all the, what look like The light areas are actually shadows, and on the positive, you know, you see them as shadows.
	It's like a mirror.
	The lights and shades and so forth all reverse.
	Right, and so that's the second photograph that we're calling the positive.
	Alright, gotcha, gotcha.
	It ends up on a negative plate simply because of the phenomena that you started with the negative.
	Right, gotcha.
	Okay, so here we are.
	That's a very good question because a lot of people have trouble understanding that.
	Glad you brought it up.
	Thank you, I guess.
	Alright, so here we are, we're at the positive, and it's quite a clear face.
	It's a very clear face.
	What's interesting from the medical point of view, just looking at that face while we're right there, you see there's a number of what look like blood flows in the hair and on the face.
	And, uh, and also, if we had a picture of the back of the head, you'd see a number of blood flows that are just at the back of the head.
	You're referring to the white, uh, the, the white... Yeah, there it is.
	Those white areas actually are negative blood marks.
	And on the, and on the actual original cloth, where you go back to the negative, they are, they are the dark blood areas.
	They're, in other words... I see them, yes.
	Blood areas on the negative picture, the original, are positive.
	And when you get to the positive picture on the negative plate, the blood is negative.
	Right.
	And then there is a long horizontal, almost looks like a scratch line, or surely not blood in that case.
	What is that?
	By the beard down below?
	Yes, uh-huh.
	That's a fold, and that's just a fold in the cloth.
	A fold in the cloth, all right.
	Yeah, so it just came out that way, that's all.
	All right, no, that's fine.
	Just wanted to know.
	It looks white in the positive, as does the blood.
	But that's just a fold.
	Okay.
	It's just a shadow of the fold.
	Gotcha.
	All right, so I see the blood.
	No question about it.
	And so, Barbette, when I first remember reading his book, and naturally other people looking at that, is that These blood flows would probably indicate numerous puncture wounds and come up with the possibility that this person had a cap of thorns on his head as opposed to a crown of thorns.
	A cap of thorns on his head.
	You can't, you know, just by looking at these, you can't tell it was a cap of thorns, but you know there are numerous puncture wounds at the top of the head, right?
	But the interesting thing here, if you come down the face, In medicine, we like to say a thing is symmetrical or asymmetrical, whether they're the same on both sides or not, on the positive face that you have in front of you.
	If you look underneath the left eye, you see it's very smooth, but underneath the right eye, you see there's a swelling there, what we call in medicine a contusion.
	Can you see it?
	I can see it clearly, yes.
	As if someone had hit this man with either a fist or a stick.
	It's just remarkable.
	You don't see that in paintings.
	I mean, these are details here.
	They're just remarkable.
	Alright.
	Alright.
	The argument about how old this shroud is... Okay.
	I know that there's been carbon dating, which would seem to argue with the time period that it ought to be in.
	Right.
	When Jesus was crucified.
	So, when does carbon dating say this shroud is from, and why is it wrong?
	Okay.
	The carbon dating occurred in 1988.
	I had been studying the clock about 10 years when that came out.
	Being a physician, I deal with data all the time.
	We're trained to look at data and we're also trained to question data if it comes back and it doesn't seem to fit the circumstances.
	Well, anyway, when the 1988 data came back on the carbon dating, I accepted that data.
	What did it say?
	It said that the cloth was a 14th century cloth.
	Cloth is, in other words, made in the 14th century, simply because in carbon dating, that's when the plant would have been picked from the ground.
	And I feel it was a 14th century cloth.
	I accepted that date, and it was sort of like two truths sort of colliding, and I had a buzz in my head.
	I said, something's going on here.
	Anyway, I said, well, I accepted that date, and I actually went out and made presentations and whatever, stating that The Shroud was actually a 14th century artifact, and then I would show my pictures and the work that I had done.
	And it was very interesting, because my audiences would say, Uh, they'd end up doubting all the, uh, the carbon dating.
	And I said, well I must be doing something right.
	So I decided to, uh, being here in Boston, I went to MIT and started studying the, uh, the scientific literature with regard to carbon dating.
	Sure.
	And, uh, and I came to find the following fascinating thing.
	When we do studies in medicine, we do protocols, scientific protocols.
	We're doing cancer studies, research, and so forth.
	We follow our protocols to be sure something works or doesn't work.
	Yes, sir.
	From the point of view of care and therapy.
	Anyway, the scientific protocol that the carbon daters used, they stated that they should take six samples from the shroud.
	And send it to seven labs to get the best results.
	Right.
	Now, and of course the reason for that, throughout the carbon dating literature, and all the literature when you do sampling, and everyone who does this kind of work, either in chemistry, physics, or whatever, biology, epidemiology, we know that you need to have a number of samples to be sure that the samples that you have are representative of the material you're testing.
	Sure.
	And right in the carbon dating literature, you see that.
	Of course, they demand that.
	That's why they asked for six samples.
	But through no fault of theirs, they only received one sample.
	One sample?
	One sample, and that sample was cut into three pieces.
	So right away, you start with the fatal flaw of the study.
	One sample is very thin ice to be on if you're going to make any kind of decisions on anything.
	Sure.
	So, it turned out that As time went on, in 1996, a piece of the sample that they used for carbon dating was checked chemically to the rest of the cloth, to the non-image areas of the cloth.
	Right.
	And the chemistry of that sample they used for carbon dating was found to be different than the rest of the shroud cloth.
	Therefore, the investigator came to the conclusion, and rightfully so, that the piece that they used for carbon dating was not representative of the rest of the cloth.
	And because of that not being representative, you really have to have samples that are representative of the whole in order to make a good study.
	There's no question, is there, that the original single sample taken And then divided, uh, for testing, was in fact from the Shroud.
	It was in fact from the Shroud, right?
	It was in fact from an area of the Shroud that was near a repair area.
	At a repair area.
	Oh!
	It was at a, uh, it was at a, um... Well, why would they take it from a repaired area in the first place?
	Well, they took it from that corner.
	That was the designated area they were supposed to take, so... There, they were nearer...
	A repair area, they were near a burn mark, they were near a water mark, and if you were going to pick this cloth up, that would be the exact corner that you would have used to pick it up for 2,000 years.
	So there's a lot of problems with that, and so therefore really the carbon dating, because of the fact that the chemistry is different, is really of no value.
	Unfortunately.
	Oh no, that's... This is in the scientific literature.
	I mean, this is not... In my book, Resurrected, you... You know, if anybody's interested in these references, they're all there.
	Alright, is there any scientific evidence to suggest that it is as old as you represent it to be?
	That is, to be, of course, the time when Jesus was crucified.
	From the point of view of Of carbon dating, I think we have to say that carbon dating is really not a valid study, so we just have to put that aside.
	I just... I wish it had been a valid study that we had some... this whole thing went to Kurt.
	But from looking at the claw, from an archaeological point of view, there are many scourge marks over the body.
	These are... and one would...
	They're all over the body.
	One can see them on my website.
	And actually, there isn't a good picture of them on your website right now.
	But they're dumbbell in shape.
	In other words, they're a Roman phlegm.
	A first century Roman phlegm was made of leather straps.
	And they had, at the ends, balls that were little balls of leather or bone.
	Uh, and they would form these type, a type of dumbbell-shaped marks over the body, and there's about 120 of these all over the body.
	So from an archaeological point of view, that's suggestive of a first century event.
	Okay.
	That's all I can say.
	Also, it's very interesting from the point of view of place.
	I met a doctor, Max Fry, when I was interned in 1978.
	He's a criminologist from Switzerland.
	who had done placed also sticky tapes on the shroud and found pollen spores that were not only from France and Italy from flowers from France and Italy but from from uh Anatolia and from the uh areas that would be around the Dead Sea so that brings us to the let's say the Jerusalem area generically and so we have placed this shroud it has an itinerary At one time, it was around the Dead Sea, which is fascinating.
	All right.
	The big question that I have, and I guess that a lot of people have, is, and you're able to answer it, and that is, this obviously is an image of a man, I think a man who has been bleeding, as you have suggested, How do we know?
	I said to you, how do we know this is Jesus?
	And that's the big question.
	How do we know this is Jesus?
	How do we know this is of a man crucified at all?
	How can we possibly know that?
	And you have answers for that, don't you?
	Yes, I do.
	I think that one of the first things is for your listeners to understand is A little bit more about the blood marks and the image itself, these two different events.
	I think the first thing is that the blood marks are definitely, from a forensic medical point of view, that of a crucified man.
	In other words, in studying this, this man had died in the position of crucifixion, had been taken down from that position.
	Layed on one end of this cloth and then the other end was draped over and sufficiently tucked around to to result in the in the blood marks that we actually see here on the cloth.
	We have some pictures for example in your on your website now that if people can't get to mine or it's too slow uh picture 56.
	Okay.
	And that's a wrist wound Uh there's two hands that are crossed and you see there's a there's a there's a wound there with a blood flow.
	I see it.
	And uh actually Barbette did this work originally and what it turned out is that when he studied that he realized first of all that the wound wasn't in the middle of the hand like we we'd see in all types of crucifixes and whatever that the wound was actually uh at the wrist.
	And he did some studies, took cadavers, put nails through the palms of the hands and found that the weight of the body would just tear through the flesh.
	Really?
	However, when he placed the nail on the wrist, he found that the ligaments and bone area would actually hold up the body.
	So anatomically, this mark was correct found in the wrist.
	So the other thing there is if you can see that blood flow as it goes along, you can see that the arm had to be 60 degrees from the vertical.
	In other words, in the crucified position for blood to flow down and just follow gravity.
	So the position of the arm when this man died was in the position of crucifixion by just sort of studying that blood mark and that blood flow.
	And finally, what was very interesting here and fascinating me is that he was a surgeon who worked in the 30s and 40s.
	There were situations where he had to amputate an arm.
	And each time he did this, he would place a nail through the wrist of his hand, an arm that has still muscles and nerves still active.
	And each time he did that, he noted that the thumb would go inside the palm of the hand.
	And therefore, with the back of the hand, if you looked at your back of the hand with the thumb inside the palm, you see four fingers and no thumbs.
	And that's what you see there on the shroud in that picture.
	Four fingers and no thumbs.
	Right.
	So the question is, how could a, let's say, a 14th century artist have anticipated the scrutiny of a 20th century surgeon?
	And sort of, it's a very interesting phenomenon.
	Couldn't have.
	Could not have.
	No, he couldn't.
	No.
	This is a real, this is a real event.
	And, uh, we can even go a little further than going to my study.
	Uh, if you go to picture 62.
	Okay.
	That you have on your website.
	I'm right there.
	And you see, you're at the arms, okay?
	Yes.
	And you see, but you see to the left there, there's this off image, blood mark, you see it just goes right off the elbow.
	Yes.
	In pools, like a little, little circle.
	Yes, I see it.
	I didn't know for about three years.
	I started looking at that and for about three years I tried to figure out what that was.
	In fact, I asked all the experts and I read the books and no one knew what that was.
	So, and I couldn't figure out what it was and how it got there.
	And one day I said, if I can only figure that out, I took a, I had a full-sized copy of
	the Shroud in my home.
	Somebody had let me borrow.
	And I placed that, I placed it over myself one day and I discovered what that was.
	And in my book, of course, and also you can see on the website, that what I did is I did transparency, I did a transparency of that, of those blood marks and an arm, and I placed it over volunteers, people that are looking at my website can see, and then they could see that That when that cloth drapes around, it drapes not only in the front of the body, but drapes around the side of the arm.
	Right.
	It touches the back of the upper arm.
	Right.
	And there, and that is where that blood flow was.
	It was in the back of the arm.
	And then we go to the very next photo, which would be 65.
	Right, I'm there, I'm there, I'm there.
	And you can see, I hope, that The blood, what happened was that the blood... How it would flow?
	Well, you're right.
	It dripped from the wrist wound, down the arm, around the elbow, pulled, and then dripped off the body.
	Which, you know, we all experience that when we wash our hands.
	I'm sure you feel that way, Art, too.
	Ask audiences, they all raise their hands.
	When you wash your hands and you hold them up looking for a towel or asking somebody for a towel and you feel that water dripping down your elbow.
	Or if you want to experiment with this, just go get your hands all wet and hold it up in the manner depicted in photo 65 and...
	And you'll see exactly what happens.
	In fact, I'm gonna try that.
	We're out of break, doctor, so hold it right there.
	You need the latest information to make the right decisions.
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	www.wmfr.com And you follow to your sense of which direction can quickly disappear.
	By the blue carved walls, there's a market for souls, with a hidden door she leads you to.
	I feel my life just like a race for a lemon juice The air as a cat
	Call Archbell in the Kingdom of Nigh from Western The Rockies at
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	It is.
	Good morning.
	For those of you who have not caught up with us, the way to get to the photographs that we're talking about is as follows.
	Go to my website, www.artbell.com.
	Go to tonight's guest information.
	Click on program and then tonight's guest info and you will see there several choices.
	The Good Doctor's website is one of them.
	It's running a little slow right now because a lot of you are hitting it obviously.
	And we've got photographs up there for you to see as well.
	Some of them, about 10 of them, the 10 important ones for this discussion.
	So that's how to get there.
	A lot of people asking about that.
	My guest is an internationally recognized expert on the Shroud of Currents, Dr. Gilbert LaVoy.
	We'll get back to him in a moment.
	and stay right where you are.
	♪♪ Are you afraid of losing more money in today's markets?
	You don't have to be.
	There is a way to protect your investments, but you need to know where to look and what to buy.
	Please listen carefully.
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	Back now to Dr. Lavoie. And you know, doctor, I went into the bathroom, cupped a bunch of
	water in my hand, put my hand up at the angle in photo 65, and it flowed exactly as depicted
	there.
	Bye.
	Yes, it's a universal event.
	It follows gravity.
	It's amazing.
	This is going to leap ahead, but I get these computer questions during the course of the program.
	And I think you've established, in fact, it was a crucifixion, though we may do more of that.
	The question from Daniel in Wisconsin is, Art, crucifixion was a common form of punishment during that time period.
	There is no evidence stating that this is Jesus.
	This could easily be the shroud of a thief, rapist, or other criminal.
	I think that's a great observation, and that's the truth.
	If you're just dealing with the blood marks that are on here, that is indeed what you
	could say.
	Because even though I have to say this, that it's remarkable that the blood marks, and
	we don't have time to go into that, but it's not even in my website, it's in my book, Resurrected,
	it gets into all these details.
	But it's just remarkable how every single description that we read about of Jesus' crucifixion,
	you find on this cloth, even the blood and the water, it's just amazing.
	It's just, the details, it's just incredible.
	But you could say, with all the thousands of people crucified, possibly somebody also
	had a crown of thorns or a cap of thorns, or somebody also had a wound to the side.
	Right.
	And you could create that argument, and I say, yeah, that's true.
	That's very possible.
	So it could be any man, from the point of view of the blood marks, as long as we recognize that definitely there was a crucified man.
	Science brings us to that point.
	And believe me, I've presented this to many physicians.
	I was just invited by another physician to a large physician group in Omaha, Nebraska.
	I'm going to this weekend.
	And I stand in front of physicians and audiences, thousands of people presenting this, and there's no question nobody ever asks me whether or not there's a crucified man when they see the forensics that I have to offer.
	I think it's established, yes.
	There's no question about it.
	Now, the question is, who is the man?
	And that individual is absolutely correct.
	It could be any man.
	Except now we've got to go to the image.
	And we can start with just a couple of things about the image.
	Realizing the blood marks are one event, and the blood actually soaks through to the back of the clot.
	And in some of my pictures in the website, and of course in my book, it gives you an idea of what that means.
	But anyway, we'll just go right to the image itself.
	And we have to understand that a little bit.
	First of all, we have to establish what this image is.
	And the best way to do that is to now go to that first slide there that you look on your website.
	that uh that linen magnification. Got it. That's number 40.
	Up at the top. Right. Right.
	Now and other people can look at it on the website my website shroudofjesus.com.
	Anyway it turns out that if you look at this at uh you go right down deep into the closet.
	If you look over a blood area, that is not a blood area we're looking at.
	We're looking over a 64 times magnification over the image area on the nose.
	But if you were to look at over a blood area, which I have on my website, you would see that there is a sort of brownish-reddish material that's intertwined among the fibers and so forth of the cloth.
	Yes.
	And there's debris there, in other words.
	And that has been proven to be blood.
	Now we're looking over an image area, and you see no debris at all.
	Right.
	Debris.
	Yes, I do.
	Well, I see some shadowing, and I wouldn't know what that is in the upper left hand corner.
	Other than that... You're just seeing some shadowing at that level, but you're not seeing actual debris.
	And what's happening is that, you know, what you're seeing is, those are threads.
	large threads, and each one of those threads you can see is made up of tiny fibers.
	Can you see the fibers there?
	Yes, sir. I sure can.
	And each one of those fibers, to give you sort of an idea of how big they are,
	each one is less than half the diameter of the hairs on your head.
	Very, very tiny.
	Wow.
	Less than half the diameter, way less than half the diameter of the hairs on your head.
	And it is the yellowing of these individual fibers that are responsible for the image.
	Now, if you take a pen and start pushing those fibers around,
	you would find that right underneath the fibers that are yellowed,
	you'd find immediately they're white.
	Right, gotcha.
	So the image only goes down into the cloth one fiber deep.
	Right.
	And then if you follow that fiber underneath the next cross thread, you'd find it would go from immediately from yellow to white.
	That means That no liquid dye or stain could have caused that, otherwise we would have had the material going deeper down into the cloth and wicking along the cloth.
	And what I mean by wicking, an oil lamp, it wicks up to the flame.
	Sure.
	You have the wicking of the yellow underneath the next cross, if you don't have that.
	I absolutely understand what you're saying.
	And again, this goes to the authenticity of it, as opposed to the creation of it.
	I think you've established that.
	I don't see how there can be any argument.
	I think you've scientifically established that.
	You're absolutely correct.
	It would be much deeper if this were somebody's handiwork.
	Sure.
	So, it's a very... That phenomenon, first, it's a negative image.
	We have this phenomenon that people on television and some people have claimed that they've been able to reproduce this kind of thing, but at the microscopic level, And the photographic and so forth, and the anatomy, and the blood marks.
	No one has been able to recreate this image.
	It's unique in the world, okay?
	And if they had, I believe me, I'd be there to find out what it is.
	Because it's just... I have done that.
	And each time I do, it's just a major disappointment.
	In the sense that it's not... They can't do it.
	So it hasn't been done.
	Now, we come to the major point.
	A major phenomenon.
	Try to understand why.
	So first of all, if it's made, if it's created by a painter, it's not the Shroud of Jesus, obviously.
	So it's not a painter here.
	Right.
	We have something that brings us, science tells us again that this phenomenon is something that, it's an amazing phenomenon that we cannot understand.
	At least, we don't know how to do it today.
	No one has technically been able to do it today.
	You need that as a prerequisite if you're going to start talking about this being the Shroud of Jesus.
	Alright.
	So science brings us to this point.
	The Shroud is not a painting.
	This is really the blood of a crucified man.
	And basically, science can go one more step here.
	And if you go to my other picture, uh, uh, let's see here.
	Uh, the, um, the little, okay.
	It's 72.
	72.
	I'm there.
	Okay, now what that is, I'll just have to explain what that is.
	Actually, what we should do is go first to the positive face, 85.
	Let's go to that.
	Alright.
	I'm there.
	And there, you see on the face, that there's hair, there's, in the hair, there are blood marks.
	Can you see them?
	Yes.
	So what I did is I, because the same thing as the study of the blood off the left elbow,
	I did a tracing of these blood marks and in my website and also in my book, Naturally,
	you can see these pictures.
	I did a tracing of these blood marks and then I took, I did a cutout of that tracing and
	then I placed that over a face of a man.
	I draped it over a face of a man and then I filled in the cutouts with blood, not with
	blood, I'm sorry, with paint.
	It's getting a little late for me here.
	With paint and then I, and when I took the, and when I took off the cloth, underneath
	I saw that the blood did not originate from the hair but literally originated from the
	temples and cheeks of the man under the cloth.
	This is very difficult for people who do not have the pictures in front of them, and it's a difficult concept, but what it is is that the blood marks originated, in other words, they were on the temples and cheeks of the man under the cloth.
	The cloth was draped around the face, and the moist blood clots that were on the face soaked into the cloth.
	Do you picture that?
	Yes.
	Now, then, but the image, so that's one event in time.
	Now, uh, but, but what we have here is we find that the blood is in the hair.
	It's almost as if the cloth, and we go back to that other picture I did, um, 72.
	Now we're going back to 72.
	All right.
	With the negative face and the blood, the blood marks that are the cutout there.
	I see it.
	I see it.
	Yes.
	And that, and you see that the It's as if the cloth was originally on the face, and then it was straightened out, and then in between the blood marks that were originally on the temples and cheeks, a snapshot, you might say, or a negative image of the face came in between those blood marks that were originally on the temples and cheeks, if you get what I mean.
	I do, yes.
	That shows us that this is an incredible enigma.
	We don't understand this.
	In other words, the blood marks are a very simple thing to understand.
	They're simply a contact process.
	Cloth coming in contact with blood marks.
	Right.
	But the image is not a contact process.
	Because if it were, the size of the face would be out where the hair is.
	So is there any natural No.
	People have tried for a hundred years.
	One hundred years.
	that has appeared on the shot, is there any natural means?
	Could you take somebody out, lay them down short of the blood, because nobody's going
	to allow that, and cover them, and in any period of time, would you get what we've got?
	Ever?
	No.
	No.
	People have tried for 100 years.
	100 years.
	And since 1898, better than 100 years, people have tried to reproduce this using, doing
	the kinds of things you're talking about and no one has ever been able to do it.
	It's been tried over and over and over again.
	Have they tried it with a woven material that is identical to the woven material shown up here?
	Yes, absolutely.
	And no one's been able to do it and neither do you find you when you when you investigate and look at shrouds of true shrouds of true cloth, covered bodies, Egyptian stuff. You don't find
	anything like this, just smudges and things. There's nothing like this in the world. This is
	a unique image.
	I think this is a little complex. I think people really have to read my book, Resurrected.
	They can start with my website to really get to the... This is a fascinating phenomena
	that really takes a little time to think about. Basically, to summarize it, the blood marks
	are simply a contact process, but the image is not a contact process.
	If they look at my study on the blood off the left elbow... So put simply, doctor, the image itself is...
	Uh, miraculous.
	In other words, absolutely.
	You're the one that said that!
	I am the one that said that.
	Well, I'm listening to what you're saying, and there's no other answer for it.
	There's no way to duplicate it, therefore it must be, uh, miraculous.
	Magic is something we don't understand, so it's magic.
	It's miraculous.
	Well, what it is is a, is a, you know, scientifically, it's a phenomena that, uh, it's a wonder that remains unexplained.
	That's what it is.
	It's a wonder that remains unexplained.
	And is that the strongest, um... You can use the word miracle if you like.
	I did.
	Is it the strongest thing, then, that says that this is Jesus?
	The miraculous nature of the image itself says it must be Jesus?
	Is that the strongest thing?
	We've got one more step to go.
	Alright.
	At least we're starting with the basics here.
	I think it is a very good question. I think it is a very good question. I think it is
	a very good question. I think it is a very good question. I think it is a very good question.
	I think it is a very good question. I think it is a very good question. I think it is
	a very good question. I think it is a very good question. I think it is a very good question.
	I think it is a very good question. I think it is a very good question. I think it is
	a very good question. I think it is a very good question. I think it is a very good question.
	I think it is a very good question. I think it is a very good question. I think it is
	I was adamant that nothing would ever convince me of that.
	And I have to say that, and we'll go into that, is that I have to say that I feel that I was wrong about that and I'd like to explain why.
	I'd like to hear why.
	Well when I was doing that work on the blood on the face, I took my pictures of my volunteer and of course the blood marks indicate this man is lying down.
	So I had the, and everybody who's ever studied the shroud has ever, we've all believed that the man of the shroud is a man laid out in burial.
	That the image is also of a man laid out in burial.
	Yes sir.
	So I took pictures of my volunteer in the lying position.
	When I got the negatives back, I naturally thought the negative of my volunteer would look somewhat like the negative of the Shroud image.
	After all, I was, you know, we were led to believe that the Shroud image is a negative, right?
	Yes, sir.
	So the negative of my volunteer should look like the negative of the Shroud.
	However, if we go to the picture on your website and also on my website, we could look at that.
	The negative of the face.
	Let's go to 84 for a second.
	Picture 84.
	84.
	Right.
	And you just take a look at the shroud and you see that there's light areas around the eyes, under the nose, and at the lips.
	That's right.
	If we go now to the negative of my volunteer, 73.
	This is a negative of your volunteer?
	Yeah.
	Let's go to 73.
	Got it.
	Negative lying down, and you see that that whole face is gray and bland.
	Yes.
	So when I saw that, I said, what's going on here?
	Again, you have to remember, I was the major skeptic, you know?
	Well, what's wrong?
	This whole thing is a fake or whatever.
	What's going on?
	This is supposed to be a negative.
	It doesn't look like a negative at all when I take a real person, you know?
	Yes.
	So then I started to look through the rest of my negatives.
	And to my amazement, I came across another negative of my same volunteer.
	And that's, let's go to figure 74.
	74.
	That's my same, that's the same volunteer.
	Obviously so, yes.
	And but you see that here there's light areas around the eyes.
	I see that.
	Under the nose and at the lips.
	Just like we see on the shroud.
	And it turned out, and that was sort of an awesome moment for me because That image does have some of the appearance of the qualities of what we see on the shroud, light areas around the eyes, under the nose, and at the lips.
	All right, hold it right there.
	We'll get to the punchline.
	There really is a punchline to this, folks.
	You're not going to believe this.
	Coming up right after the break, Dr. Gilbert Lavoie is here, an internationally recognized expert on the shroud of Turin.
	I'm Art Bell. This is Coast to Coast AM.
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	There's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do I guess the rain's down in Africa
	Gonna take some time to do the things we never did To reach Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh, from West of the
	Rockies, dial 1.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
	1-800-825-5033. First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
	My guest is Dr. Gilbert LeVoy, an internationally recognized expert on the Shroud of Turin.
	And I know that a lot of this is very technical.
	I hope as many as possible are able to follow along on the website because it is important to see the photographs.
	We'll do another segment with Dr. Lavoie in a moment.
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	Mike, can I ask, do you get any ITC?
	What's an EITC?
	Earned Income Tax Credit.
	It's for people who work hard but don't earn much.
	Huh, that's me.
	If your income last year ranged from a small amount up to a little over $31,000, and if you qualify for this credit, it can save you hundreds of dollars, even thousands!
	Wow!
	How do I get the EITC?
	Get the fax by calling 1-800-TAX-FORM, that's T-A-X-F-O-R-M, and ask for free publication 596.
	A public service message from the IRS.
	She took on the system and wouldn't take no for an answer.
	I'll do anything, and I'm not leaving here without a job.
	See Julia Roberts in Erin Brockovich, just one of the new hit movies you'll see on the Star Super Pack, number one in new hit movies.
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	All right, once again, Dr. LaVoy, and we're looking on the website at photo number 73, which is of a volunteer.
	Doctor?
	Yes, and that's the volunteer lying down.
	It's at 73, but there's no light areas around at the face.
	It doesn't look at all like the shroud negative.
	That's right.
	Then we went to Negative of the 74, the same volunteer.
	And here we have light areas by the eyes, the nose, and lips.
	Yes.
	Like we do on the shroud face.
	Correct, right.
	And, uh, but the fascinating thing about this was that this was the same volunteer, but he wasn't lying down.
	He was actually in the upright position with light coming from above.
	Ah, as though somebody was, as in a crucifixion.
	Well, no, as, as in an upright man.
	Uh, we have to think in terms, this man is no longer in a crucified position, but as an upright man.
	Uh, in other words... Sorry, the shout was after that, so... Oh, so, oh!
	Ta-da!
	Light goes on.
	So you have, what you have is you have, uh, and I, and I, what, what are light areas around the eyes and the nose and the lips are actually Well, what appear to be shadows.
	Oh no, I'm with you.
	As in a... As in a resurrected man.
	As in a man who's lifted up.
	Uh, right.
	A man who's lifted up.
	Now, the fascinating thing is that these shadows were not only, well, looked like shadows, I should say, because I'm not saying this was made by, this isn't an actual photograph, because the shot is much, the image is much more complex than that, and I'm not saying regular light made this or anything.
	We don't know how this image was made, but basically, what looked like shadows are not only on the face, but I did studies, and you can see them in my book, That you see this not only at the face, but you see him at the pectoral muscles, the shadows and at the hands and so forth.
	So it's consistent throughout the body that it looks like a man who is upright.
	And if you want to, I've asked painters, expert painters looking at this, and if a painter wanted to paint this, this is exactly what they do.
	They put these shadows in to make this person look upright.
	Right.
	So it's consistent with an upright man from the point of view of shadows.
	Then I did another study.
	I said, is there anything else in this plot that tells us that this man is upright?
	And I studied his hair.
	And you look at the hair, and if you probably go to the positive image 85 of the face, And there you see the hair falls down to the shoulders, just like a person is upright.
	I hope you can see that.
	I can clearly see it, sure.
	And if you had the picture of the back of the head, you would have the very same thing.
	The hair just falls right down to the shoulders.
	And I have pictures on my website, of course, and my book that show this hair just falls right down.
	So that would be vertical?
	Following gravity.
	A vertical person who's vertical, exactly.
	And, um, it turns out that, uh, The, uh, I also have a picture of a young lady lying down and you can see that the hair falls backward.
	It doesn't fall down, you know, it follows gravity.
	Yes.
	So this is definitely, uh, obvious from the point of view of just looking at it.
	We, everyone knows what the hair falls down following gravity.
	Now the feet, if you don't have a picture of that, but the feet actually, you see the soles of the feet, they're actually bloody imprints of the feet.
	So this man is not standing.
	So what you get is the impression of a man who is upright and suspended in mid-air.
	That's the impression you get.
	Upright and suspended in mid-air?
	As if suspended in mid-air, right.
	And it's very interesting, many years ago when I first started showing these pictures, I was with a group of physicians, and before I even understood this phenomenon, years before I understood it, And after I gave a lecture to a group of physicians and one of the physicians sort of stayed back as if he really wanted to ask this question alone.
	He's an orthopedic surgeon.
	And after the lecture he came to me and he said, you know, he says, when I look at these pictures, it seems to me that this man is suspended in midair.
	He's upright and suspended in midair.
	That orthopedic surgeon saw that immediately when he looked at those pictures, years before I figured it out, because I was so prejudiced to believe this man was lying down.
	But he wasn't.
	He just saw it that night.
	And there it was, and that's what he saw.
	So years later, you remembered what he said.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I said that, and I said, well, maybe you're right.
	You know, I just didn't really think very much of it.
	But that indeed, he was right that night, and that indeed is what we have.
	And again, those pictures are there for people to look at and decide for themselves.
	I mean, that's the way I see it, and if you see it, see it.
	No, you don't.
	We have no way that this image could have been transferred to the Shroud.
	We've not been able to duplicate it, and we now know that it was a vertical picture as though suspended in mid-air.
	Not in the crucified position, right?
	Right.
	But suspended in mid-air.
	As though resurrected.
	And so the moment this image... You might imagine the moment the image was transferred to the shroud was the moment of resurrection.
	Is that what you're saying here?
	This is where we have to leave science.
	Okay?
	Fine.
	Now you've brought me a long way, so go ahead.
	Science brings us to this point, okay?
	And we cannot... So what we have is exactly what you just said.
	The blood of a crucified man.
	Now we have an image of an upright man who's suspended in midair.
	I said, what am I going to do with this?
	And I was not a person that read the Bible.
	But I can tell you that this discovery caused me to To go and try to look for answers, and I really didn't have any other place to go but to the Bible.
	So I started reading, and I went from one gospel to another, and I finally reached the gospel of John.
	And it states in the gospel, in chapter 12, verse 32, Jesus is talking.
	He's talking, and He states, and I, when I am lifted up above the earth, when I'm lifted up from the earth, We'll draw all people to myself.
	When I saw lifted up above the earth, I said, that's the very same imagery that I'm seeing on the Shroud, lifted up above the earth.
	And so I then went to the commentaries and I read, I went to one of the best commentaries on the Gospel of John by Raymond Brown, respected by all faiths actually.
	This commentary.
	This gentleman, Raymond Brown.
	And at the very beginning of his book, and throughout different sections of the book, there he talks about, there's an extensive work in the Gospel of John, he talks about this sentence, and I, when I am lifted up above the earth, will draw all people to myself.
	He states, lifted up, when Jesus talks about that, that is the culminating event of his life, the culminating, the reason why he came.
	Which is the Resurrection.
	And that, lifted up, he's lifted up in crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension.
	And so, there we have the imagery of being lifted up from the words of Jesus, the culminating events of his life, and there what we have on the shroud is the very same imagery.
	And it is because of this And that, this is the reason I believe this is indeed the Shroud of Jesus.
	Wow.
	Doctor, when you have presented this final clinching evidence, and I realize how you had to work up to it, when you present this evidence to others, to colleagues, to other researchers, with regard to the Shroud, how's it greeted?
	Well, it depends on, when I present this to people who are Are interested or just looking at the shroud for the first time or just have an interest in the shroud.
	It's greeted very well.
	I present this to physicians and it's greeted very well.
	There is a group of people that have studied the shroud that are very interested in understanding the mechanics of how this image got onto the cloth.
	Some of those guys are a little bit upset with my fact that I'm saying this man is upright.
	And they use studies like VPA image analysis and so forth stating that I'm saying this is a photograph.
	And indeed, I'm not saying that.
	It has photographic-like qualities.
	And some people say, in other words, it's very difficult once I have this man lifted up to figure out a mechanical way A body-to-cloth relationship that allows one to figure out how this image got onto the cloth, you know, as it covered a body.
	And the fact is that a small group of those people disagree with me.
	Can't we imagine, or mustn't we at least imagine, that if it's what we believe it is, that the energy of that moment, of that instant, was transferred to the cloth in the manner you've described,
	vertically, in midair, and so it was, and I use the word, miraculous,
	but for lack of any better word, that instant described is the only way this could have happened.
	Well, to be very frank with you, I guess what it comes down to,
	as you're saying this, I guess the best way to describe how this happened,
	my mother has the best answer for this, I think.
	And, you know, she says, how did Jesus turn water to wine?
	In other words, what you're saying is a miracle.
	Yes.
	We can't understand this phenomena, and the fascinating thing is that it's right in front of us, and we can look at it scientifically.
	And we can make observations and then it's something that has no answer and the word miracle certainly can be applied to this and I don't use that word but it certainly can be.
	I think I understand what you mean when you use that word.
	There is never going to be enough evidence I suppose for those Who believe it's a hoax, is there?
	Or is there?
	Or do you think that what you have presented here is sufficiently conclusive, perhaps not to silence them, but at least to quiet them a bit?
	I think what I have here, if I sit in a room with you, or any of those people, we're just covering the very top of what I have to offer here.
	Just skimming the top of it.
	If we sat in a room and discussed this, I think if I had time to talk to everybody who disagreed with this, and they saw these images and so forth, they'd come to understand that this was indeed an incredible enigma that's worthy of at least looking at and contemplating, as opposed to just thinking in terms of it as being a hoax.
	I think there's definitely a tremendous amount of information That points to this being the Shroud of Jesus.
	Well, that sure is a clincher.
	The one last conclusive piece of evidence that this would have occurred in mid-air, as somebody was suspended in mid-air, not crucified, not lying down, but suspended in mid-air.
	People are going to have to give that some pretty serious thought.
	Yes, you have to really give it a lot of serious thought.
	And you've got to look at the images, make a decision for yourself.
	Is what I'm saying here, because a lot of people don't have these pictures in front of them right now.
	Oh, let me plug your book.
	You do have a book, and obviously the images are in the book, I trust, right?
	Absolutely.
	I have at least 70 pictures in the book, about 40 pictures on the website.
	Some of the pictures on the website are not in the book.
	And of course, many pictures in the book, many more that are on the... The book is simply called Resurrected.
	Right.
	And it's available where, Doctor?
	Well, certainly it's available through my website.
	They can call.
	There's a telephone number there.
	They can call from 8 to 5.
	eight to five, the company Thomas More, it's available in bookstores, it should be, if
	it's not they can order it, it's certainly available on Amazon.com, they can visit through
	my website.
	You don't know what the number is do you because not everybody...
	Yes, I'll give you the telephone number.
	Please.
	Telephone number for...
	By the way, Susan in Seattle writes, why shouldn't I believe this is just another Christian
	trying to make money off Jesus?
	I'm telling you.
	He's a physician and internist who probably has all the money he needs anyway.
	I don't make any money on this.
	I spend money on this.
	I'm sure you do.
	You don't make money on these kinds of books.
	I do this because I tripped over this and it's been a fascinating Detective story that I just have to share with people because it is so fascinating.
	Okay, that toll-free number is 1-800-264-0368.
	And that's 2-800-264-0368.
	1-800-2-6-4-0-3-6-8.
	All right.
	And that can be just dialed during daytime hours, 8 to 5.
	Oh, OK.
	So you don't have operators standing by.
	No, no.
	There's no operators standing by.
	All right.
	Daytime phone number, folks.
	Yeah.
	And then, of course, Amazon.com.
	Through my website, through your website, and just going here directly.
	Yeah, we will keep the photographs that I've got on our website at least for a few days, because I know a lot of people will listen to this by computer the next day, and replays of it, and they're going to want to go and look at the photographs.
	Yeah, you can keep them on as long as you'd like.
	Well, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your being here.
	It's a difficult, under the best of circumstances, if you've got the photographs in front of you, it's a difficult story to To tell, technically.
	But the conclusion you come to is certainly something new for an awful lot of people, including me, to think about.
	And I appreciate your being here.
	Well, it's a pleasure to be with you.
	Take care, Doctor.
	Alright, that's Dr. Gilbert Lavoie.
	And it is something I'm going to have to think about.
	There have been many, many arguments about the Shroud of Turin.
	All kinds of arguments about it, haven't there?
	Big carbon dating, when it came from, I think conclusively he proves that it came from the time when we know that, first century, alright?
	So I think he's established that, I think he's established beyond any shadow of a doubt that this was a man crucified.
	And I think if you look carefully at the evidence that he has established also That this was a shroud that came from a man that was in mid-air.
	That's the amazing one.
	That's the one you've got to think a little bit about or a lot about.
	As you consider what you just heard tonight.
	And again, we will keep the photographs on my website.
	Because I know a lot of you are going to want to review them.
	And we'll also continue to allow you to go to the link As a matter of fact, we've got, uh, you'll find under Dr. Gilbert Lavoie's name, photos, exhibits of the shroud.
	Uh, those are the photos we have on, so we could be sure that you'd get to see something tonight.
	Uh, then the link to book resurrected, tangible evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.
	Then the website itself, The Shroud of Jesus, and of course the NBCI search on The Shroud of Turin.
	If you just want to do a lot of reading on The Shroud of Turin and begin to come to your own conclusions, you may want to back up a little bit, do a lot of your own research, and then move forward into Dr. Lavoie's research and come to your own conclusions.
	That's what I try to do on this program.
	is to sort of lay things out for you, very controversial things, and this is certainly one of those, and let you come to your own conclusion.
	At the very least, I think the research of this man, who's internationally recognized as an expert on the Shroud of Turin, has to be taken into consideration, no matter how you feel about whether Jesus was real, Or concocted by somebody and all the words in the Bible that were supposedly his words were concocted.
	You have to roll over this kind of evidence to get to any sort of conclusion at all.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	When we come back, we'll go to Open Lines.
	We'll talk about this.
	And your impressions of Dr. Jones.
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	Sweet dreams are made of years.
	Who am I to disagree?
	I travel the world and the seven seas.
	Everybody's looking for something.
	Some of them want to use you.
	Some of them want to get used by you.
	Some of them want to abuse you.
	Some of them want to be abused.
	Wanna take a ride?
	Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	to the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	And to reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 808-930-903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	I know that was a very hard technical interview to do, but it was a very profound interview as well.
	Profoundly important.
	And so, when we end the show at 3 o'clock Pacific Time, we're going to replay the two hours of that interview.
	Those of you who know about The Shroud will have followed it and will understand the profound conclusion reached at the end of the interview.
	I certainly do.
	Others may have to take their time and follow along, so we'll give you that opportunity if you get a repeat.
	And the same goes for tomorrow night.
	The concluding hours of the show will be played, so if you get the pre-feeds, and yes, we do pre-feeds now, you'll be able to go through it again.
	Very, very, very interesting.
	I'm Art Bell.
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	Alright.
	David in Sacramento fast blasts me.
	Art, what do you believe?
	800-557-4627. One more time. 1-800-557-4627.
	Alright. David in Sacramento fast blasts me.
	Art, what do you believe? Is it real?
	What about Ramona?
	Well, I don't know about Ramona.
	I'll speak for myself.
	I don't know.
	It's always been my problem.
	It may always be my problem.
	Please do not attempt to call, email, or write me and convert me.
	I'm incontrovertible.
	Sorry about that.
	I just...
	I am intrigued with what the good doctor just said, Dr. Lavoie.
	Surely, you know, he delineated very clearly where he left science at the very end and where he made the leap.
	But the science does take us to an interesting point.
	That the individual on the shroud We have no idea how the image got on the shroud.
	There's no way to duplicate that.
	It does go back to the time that it would have to have been.
	Moreover, the final crushing point that this was a shroud, an image done at the moment that a body was vertically in the air suspended from the ground.
	I don't know.
	I don't know what I believe.
	I wish I did.
	I'm happy for all of you who have faith, and you're able to simply believe without scientific evidence.
	I wish I was there.
	I would love to be there, but I'm not there, and I'm not sure I'll ever be there, and that's as honest an answer as I can give you.
	I hope it's true.
	How about that?
	I hope it's true.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, sir.
	I'm on the air.
	Great.
	Yes, you are.
	Well, I was listening to you off the delay, so I didn't get your last few comments.
	Actually, you were listening to me on the delay.
	What I said was, at the very end, all I can do is I'll say, I hope it's true.
	That's what I said.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I heard that.
	I heard that.
	And that's kind of fascinating.
	My name is Michael.
	I'm calling from Norfolk, Virginia.
	Yes, sir.
	And, um, I think probably the most significant thing about this program and about, uh, what, uh, Gilbert has brought forth is, is not what it will produce in, uh, the Christian or religious world, uh, but what it will produce in the scientific world.
	Yes.
	Uh, what you've done on this program, and I've been listening to it very carefully now for Since about two weeks before you came back on the program.
	And what you've done is you've created in this time some real milestones for science that I think need to be followed through on.
	And tonight's program is one of them.
	Just before you came back, a couple of weeks before, Mike had on a guest by the name of Dean Radin, who Who made a very, very significant statement.
	He's a scientist who's looking into the paranormal.
	Uh, he's gotten some funding from, uh, from Bill Gates' partner, Paul Allen.
	And, uh, it was a very significant program, but the statement that he made, as it applies to tonight's program, that I thought is very, very significant, is that, um, there's a great difference between getting people's attention And getting their intention.
	And he applied this to scientists.
	He said that when he shows the evidence that he has shown to scientists that there is reason to believe the paranormal really has sound basis.
	He gets their attention.
	But it's very different from getting their intention.
	And I think that As an agnostic, anyone who is an agnostic, listening to tonight's program, I think the thing that would give us hesitance about jumping into something like this is not wanting to become what Christianity is in our minds.
	Not wanting to be like another Christian, so to speak.
	And, uh, So the significant question that we have to ask is... You mean fear of faith?
	Well, no, it's just that what we see in religion, we don't want to become a part of it.
	Yeah, fear of faith.
	Well, maybe you could call it fear of faith.
	I do.
	But what if, what if this man, Jesus, was resurrected in the manner described What technology was behind that?
	What kind of system produced that?
	And why was it done in the way in which it was done?
	Well, a technology we don't have today, obviously.
	And how can we interact with that civilization?
	What are they trying to tell us that obviously has not gotten through to the Christian world?
	I think that's the big question, and people like Dean Radin need to be brought back on this program so we can start getting into those questions.
	We know there's something phenomenal out here, and every reasonable person who listened to tonight's program would say, yeah, this was an agnostic doctor, a scientist, looking at this.
	Yes.
	When he came to all this.
	And I could hear the open-mindedness in your mind as well.
	But I think you're like many people in the scientific community who have a willingness to believe, but there's that other notion.
	Am I going to become another one of these?
	Alright, I think I get the message.
	Fear of faith is again what I would say.
	Maybe?
	Maybe.
	You know, all of your comments are interesting and you may be absolutely right.
	It may have something to do with a fear of faith because Once you made the jump, once you made the jump, there wouldn't be any turning back, would there?
	In other words, suddenly, you believe it all.
	Once you believe part of it, I guess you believe it all.
	You can't believe in all of this part way, can you?
	That there was a man who walked on earth, the Son of God, who was crucified and then resurrected?
	If you believe that, then everything else has to be embraced as well, and I'm sure that caller's right.
	I'm sure there's some fear about that, because it would change you incontrovertibly.
	Rose to the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	This is Gemini from Oakland, California.
	Yes, indeed.
	I wanted to change the subject a little bit, although I thought that was pretty awesome.
	It was.
	I got onto his website and read the whole thing.
	I'm going to tell my brother, who's an avid Christian, To check out the website.
	Anyway, someone called a few days ago and alluded to Ed Daines concentrating on the Jonathan Reed thing.
	Oh, yes.
	And you never mention on the air whether he thumbed down or thumbed up it.
	Oh, pretty much thumbed down.
	As a matter of fact, we're going to have Ed Dames on again at the end of the week, and we'll ask him that again.
	Well, I have a theory about it that makes Ed Dames right and makes Jonathan Reid right.
	Okay.
	Well, when you go on Jonathan's website, he mentions that... In fact, I was disappointed.
	He mentions a lot of things that he didn't mention on the air.
	Like he's met Freddy again, he's met creatures like him.
	There's no way to cover everything.
	I know, I know.
	But anyway, he said that not only are people on the planet after him and after his friends, but there are off-planet forces trying to keep this quiet too.
	Now, if they wanted to keep it quiet on all levels, they could wrap the whole incident in a thought form of a hoax.
	You know, as Ed Dames would call it, the Target.
	Mm-hmm.
	...wrapped the target in, uh, in thought form, layers of thought forms, like, that they project onto the whole thing, because they figure there's not only going to be physical investigators, there are going to be psychic investigators.
	So, Ed Dames comes along, and he tunes into it, and he bumps into these thought forms that are wrapped around the incident, that say hoax and everything like that, so he, so he can be right, and Jonathan can be right.
	Well, um, we shall see, in a, in a kind of an interesting way, Well, I'm just going to get myself lost.
	If I backtrack into the interview we just did, I'm going to get lost, so I'm going to avoid it.
	Listen, thank you very much for the call, and take care.
	Maybe I'll say a word or two.
	If we're talking about the possibility of extraterrestrial life, go back to the Brookings Report.
	What did the Brookings Report really tell us?
	It's commissioned by the government.
	It told us that people would basically go bonkers if extraterrestrial life was suddenly present.
	Or the truth of their presence was suddenly revealed in some official way.
	Everybody would go bonkers.
	Well, I think they would.
	And I think most Christians would.
	And now I'll back up into the program a little bit.
	Dr. Lavoie came to an incredible conclusion, and he did so scientifically, that this man had to be in midair.
	That this image had to have been transferred at that moment, in midair.
	Okay, well, if you embrace that, and then you embrace Christianity in general, and you embrace the whole thing, you buy the whole package, which is what we were talking about a little while ago with that other caller, And then you contemplate the possibility of there being extraterrestrial life that, for example, might claim to have created us.
	Us?
	Then everything that you have embraced and believed blows up in your face.
	Doesn't it?
	Everything.
	If you embrace everything as written in the Bible, if you embrace Jesus the man being on the planet, The true son of God, crucified, then resurrected, in a way we could not possibly explain today.
	If you buy all of that, and then you consider the possibility that others would come along from elsewhere and claim they created us, that they are the authors of our genetic makeup, the Anunnaki, Sitchin's Anunnaki, whatever it is that you want to contemplate, It collides immediately with this deep Christian belief.
	And a lot of other beliefs, by the way, also, around the planet.
	So, I have always believed, and believe now, that the Brookings Report is accurate, and that, pretty much, people would go bonkers.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yeah, hi, Eric.
	Hello.
	I'm calling from Santa Rosa, California.
	Yes, sir.
	And one of the things that I've come to think over time is that When you look at the creationists and you look at Christianity, and you have to make the leap of faith, I think that one of the things that becomes very obvious or something that has to be considered is that any god that can create the universe, that can create people, can also create a world that has artifacts of dinosaurs and ancient civilizations
	And all the things that science looks at to say that things are different than what those with faith have.
	And that's the ultimate test of faith, if you follow what I'm saying.
	Actually, I don't.
	Okay, let's say... You're gonna have to try it on me again here.
	Let's say that dinosaurs never actually existed.
	What?
	Let's say that... Why do we want to say that?
	Because there's hard scientific physical evidence that in fact they did.
	A god that created the universe and has that kind of power?
	Yes.
	Could create an earth that has artifacts and dinosaurs and fossils to test our faith?
	Why would any God want to taint our faith?
	Why wouldn't it be sufficient that people would have faith?
	They would have made that leap.
	They believe without the necessity of evidence.
	Why would a God in effect torture people by providing additional evidence that would argue against the whole premise?
	I mean, I just don't understand.
	That's not a God-like thing to do!
	I think that what the issue is You would need to have the ultimate faith in belief, and I'm going back to the creationists.
	The creationists who talk about... But what kind of God would need to test that?
	Aren't we tested in our faith daily?
	I mean, God does not come down from on high every day and say, I am God, I am the miracle worker, here are my miracles.
	Everything that we know is based on faith.
	And those who don't have the faith say, The faith that we have, or those that profess to have faith, do that to fill in a gap, to make existence mean something.
	Well, it's okay.
	It's hard enough as it is, that X number of things must be accepted on faith.
	Ah, what a word, on faith.
	Why would a creator throw in 50 million more things to be considered and to challenge that faith?
	Because then, You have an absolute of saying, I believe without questioning that God exists as opposed to having to continually go through this argument of science.
	Well, then he did too damn good a job for me because I cannot bring myself to make that leap of faith.
	How's that?
	Did much too good a job for me.
	They're just... I see exactly what you're saying, but I just don't see why a god, or at least a god that I understand... Well, you don't understand him!
	Well, probably I don't.
	You're right.
	But why would he throw up tests like that?
	I've got to say it anyway, and ask it.
	Why would he make it more difficult to believe?
	Why not make it easier to believe, not more difficult?
	Why challenge?
	A leap of faith that's already been made.
	Why throw more roadblocks in the way?
	That doesn't seem God-like.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, thank you.
	You're welcome.
	My name is Matt.
	I'm calling from Canada.
	Yes, Matt.
	Yes, I wanted to discuss something related to Nostradamus with you.
	Alright.
	Okay, are you familiar fairly well with the prophecies of Nostradamus?
	Ooh, yeah.
	A little bit?
	Yeah.
	Little wee bit.
	Yes.
	Okay, well, in Nostradamus, he predicts that there will be three Antichrists.
	Okay.
	Two of them will obviously come.
	The first one... Well, what do you mean, obviously?
	I know Hitler will be named, no doubt, as one, right?
	Well, hindsight being 20-20, Napoleon is considered the first.
	The third one, considered by most people who study Nostradamus, think that the third one's name is an anagram, Mavis.
	Yes.
	Now, when he talked about Hitler, he talked about a man named Hister who would be born
	Yes.
	near the Rhine, carrying the crooked cross, referring to the swastika.
	And he made a lot of symbolism around that.
	With this, Mabus, as an anagram, do you have a pen and paper in front of you?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay.
	Now, if you take these letters, take the M, turn it upside down and turn it into a W,
	The B, the U, and the S, and the A are all still there.
	Now, if you take the W, the B, the U, the S, and switch the H to an- or an A to an H, you have W. Bush.
	W. Bush.
	You've got to do switching of letters to get there.
	Yes, well, as you did with Hitler.
	He called him Hister.
	Yeah.
	I don't know, sir.
	I've always had a problem with that kind of thing.
	You always had a problem with it, eh?
	Yep.
	I always have.
	Well, that's too bad.
	It is.
	It's a rotten shame, actually.
	But yes, I've always had a problem with it.
	That's kind of like other things that you accept on faith, alone.
	How about this?
	Let me run this one by you.
	Are you ready?
	In 1555, Nostradamus wrote the following.
	Come the millennium, month 12, in the home of the greatest power, the village idiot will come forth to be acclaimed the leader.
	It finally happened.
	I don't want to have to switch the H to get there.
	W, I think you're all right.
	I'm Art Bell.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	It is indeed, and to continue in the same discussion we're having right now is going to cause me cranial difficulties.
	I'm really hurting right here in the very center.
	So, if we turn to something else, that'd be alright with me.
	How about those shadow people, huh?
	How about that airplane on that island?
	We could talk about that.
	A lot of other things, too.
	Cause this makes my head hurt.
	I can't hear How they still got married And just when they came in This line is great.
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	You know, I would think the program we just did would be very important for Christians.
	Or maybe not.
	Maybe it would be more important for non-Christians.
	People who are constantly demanding impossible scientific proof.
	Because he did get to a place I've never heard anybody go before.
	So maybe it's important for everybody.
	Everybody.
	Hmm.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Oh my... Oh my God.
	Uh, hi Art.
	This is JD from Maine.
	Yes, JD.
	Uh, you're surprised you got in, huh?
	Yes, I actually am.
	It's like the lottery.
	It very much is.
	Somebody has to get in.
	So here you are.
	So here I am.
	Where are you in Maine?
	Where am I in Maine?
	I'm from the great city of Portland, Maine.
	I'm listening to you on W... W...
	W is safe.
	I mean, they're pretty much everything used to be.
	Yeah, everything used to be W. Pretty much.
	Except for KDKA.
	Yeah, anyways, I called in.
	It's amazing that I actually got through on the shot of Turan, although your guest is gone, so... That's true.
	My question is a little bit null and void.
	I was going to ask him about the... He talked about the bloodstains around the face area, and I was going to ask him how he accounts for the The face cloth placed on Jesus' face after the crucifixion by Mary.
	Well, you're right.
	You would have to answer that, and I couldn't even begin to, so... And you can't.
	No.
	Anyways, I've been trying to get through on something else, too.
	You seem to have a lot of people call in every once in a while.
	You also have the Antichrist line, but you seem to have a lot of people talk about future and Bible prophecy and stuff like that.
	Sure.
	You never seem to have an amillennialist come on.
	An Amillennialist?
	An Amillennialist, or Amill, is what I like to call them.
	Well, that must be you then.
	That's what I am, actually.
	And what does that mean?
	What are you?
	There's two things that an Amillennialist does.
	The first thing is, they take a look at Bible prophecy and they say, okay, this thing is written... First thing you've got to do is learn how to say that.
	I can't even... Amillennialist.
	See, it doesn't work.
	Amillennialist.
	It's like trying to say unique New York three times fast.
	Anyway, so what are you all about?
	The two things that we do, the first thing we do is we accept that this stuff was written 2,000 to 2,500 years ago, depending on which religion and what have you that you take all this prophecy from.
	Yes.
	So we have no idea what these people saw.
	So the second thing that we do is we say, okay, this might not be literal stuff, this might be the same lines as taking a book like Brave New World and
	sending that 2,000 years into the future, which if they would look at their timeline they
	would say, well, this is 2,000 years after Ford is the year written here in the book.
	He must have been writing about our time.
	That's right.
	So that's the first thing.
	The second thing that we do is we take little marks that are written in prophecy that we
	can find in other places in the Bible.
	And the classic one that I like to use is you talk about the Mark of the Beast in Revelations.
	and And the term Mark is actually used in the Gospels, in the book of Luke if I remember right, when Jesus Christ is asked by the Pharisees, uh, should we pay taxes to Caesar?
	He asks for a coin and he says, whose mark is on the coin?
	So, uh, and the exact same Greek word used for Mark in that reference is used for Mark in the Reference and Revelation when it talks about the
	mark, or more precisely, the image of the beast.
	Alright, uh, well, I figure it this way. Probably 2,000, 2,500 years from now,
	somebody will stumble across Spider-Man, and they will, uh, make their conclusions about our society based on that.
	Uh...
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air. Hello.
	Hey, Art.
	Hey, yes.
	Hey, uh, you know, you were talking earlier about, uh, you know, the entire concept...
	Okay, my name's Brian, I'm a truck driver, I'm headed south on I-35, somewhere near the, uh, Oklahoma-Texas border, but,
	uh...
	On a digital cell phone.
	Oh yeah, man, best thing I can do, bear with me.
	Alright.
	But the concept that they got an all-powerful being with the ability to create the universe and everything within and then placing within that humans, you know, a species there with the Yeah.
	the ultimate purpose of worshipping him and then if they fail to do so, to torture them
	in an all-fiery burning hell, something I'm not really comfortable with, I want to be
	a part of.
	I'm the same here, I'm with you.
	I'm with you.
	Yeah.
	And the other caller said, and you know, and we'll put down, we'll put all these dinosaurs
	in and we'll throw in all kinds of artifacts and we'll really make it hard to believe in
	me and then we'll see what those lowly humans do.
	We'll see if they can get over these obstacles, not my kind of God.
	I mean, we're here.
	That's right.
	I agree.
	I'm with you all the way, sir.
	I mean, you know, I mean, there's a lot of good things about religion.
	I can't quite follow any of the Ten Commandments, but, uh, I do have a hard time believing it as it's put forth.
	And, uh... I'm with you.
	Truck on.
	Well, I thank you.
	I appreciate it.
	All right, take care.
	These are the Rockies.
	You're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes.
	Hello.
	Thanks for taking my call.
	You're welcome.
	Very well.
	Great show tonight.
	Uh-huh.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Bloomington, Indiana.
	My name's Steve.
	Okay, Steve.
	Yes.
	Um, I just want to, uh, say that, um, you know, it really doesn't take, um, any more greater leap of faith to, uh, believe in Jesus Christ or God, you know, with a capital G, as it does in little green men from other worlds, you know?
	Well, I've never said I believe in little green men from other worlds.
	I've never met one.
	I've never touched one.
	But you pretty strongly... No, no, no.
	No, no.
	Don't misinterpret my investigation, whether it be like with tonight's show, or investigations into little green men.
	Don't misinterpret that to mean faith or belief in, because I don't have it.
	I'll tell you straight out.
	Any other approach you want to take?
	Well, I just wanted to make a comment about the dinosaurs and things.
	Oh, yes.
	Go ahead.
	Uh, most Bible scholars today and a lot of Christians believe that the world is a lot older than 6,000 years, you know.
	And, uh... And there's a lot of them that believe 6,000 years is it?
	Yeah, well, you know, the Bible says that the God, you know... I've had them on the air, sir.
	You know what they do?
	What's that?
	They, uh, they bring forth fuzzy photographs to try and prove That, um, a man and dinosaur walked along together, happily, hand-in-hand, or claw-in-hand.
	Well, there's something really important here that I want to get out, and that is, um, in the first chapter of Genesis, on the first verse, you know, um, it says that the world was without form.
	Well, the Bible also says that God cannot create imperfection.
	So?
	There's speculation here that there was more than one destruction, you know, other than the flood.
	We can't create imperfection, then what are you and I doing here?
	Well, I mean, you know, we were influenced by other things.
	Well, we can be influenced by other things.
	Maybe that was up until the bite out of the apple, huh?
	Right.
	Okay.
	I mean, you know, it's just different beliefs.
	Everybody has their own beliefs, you know.
	It's true.
	But, you know, as far as the Bible itself is concerned, I mean, you know, as from a Christian viewpoint, you know, there was two destructions.
	In, you know, the Old Testament, you know, there was the flood.
	Yes.
	But there's also this destruction, you know, because the world was without form, and God, you know, the Bible also says that God cannot create imperfection.
	I mean, the Bible states that.
	I mean, I can't give you the verse and chapter here.
	Well, the only perfect moment was the one without form.
	Right.
	All right, sir.
	I appreciate this call.
	Thank you.
	This is hurting my head.
	Stop.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Alright, Jeff, Colorado Springs.
	How you doing?
	I'm alright, Jeff.
	Alrighty.
	Hey, I'll switch gears on ya.
	Alright, thank you.
	Bless you.
	Bless you, son.
	Bless you.
	Oh, yeah.
	Hey, uh, I just wanted to ask.
	You made a brief comment the other night regarding some irrefutable type of evidence coming forward regarding the existence of Bigfoot Somewhere in... No, no.
	I didn't say irrefutable.
	Yes, I did.
	There are two simultaneous stories.
	One is out of Britain right now, where they tested the hair, and it's of no known species.
	The other, though, I don't know about irrefutable, but it's an ongoing, important contact in the middle part of the country between many individuals, not just one, and Bigfoot.
	And I'm not allowed to go beyond that until I get the okay.
	From the person who's going to bring these witnesses on the air.
	Yes, I said that.
	All right.
	Well, buddy, I'll tell you what.
	I have actually been playing phone tag a little bit with you.
	And I can get with you some other time.
	But I do have Bigfoot on videotape at close range.
	Oh, I think I know who you are.
	Yep.
	It happened in Colorado.
	And I'll definitely get with you on that later.
	It is absolutely, without question, the best image of the face to date.
	And it's simply standing behind a tree.
	Yes, uh, is your first name, uh, Jeff?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	I've got, uh, all of your information here, Jeff, including your contact number and all the rest of it.
	Yes, and I apologize, uh, I know I've missed your call a couple times, but we can... Describe to me what, since I've got you on the phone now, and what the hell, we've got an audience.
	Describe to me exactly what you've got, Jeff.
	What I have, Art, is I... I had designated a percentage chance for the existence of the animal, but to my friends in the field of research, I was at the point where I would justify it by saying, oh, what the heck, maybe I can go up there and Catch some hoaxers doing this and... You know, I was a little bit... Kind of a closet.
	Jeff, I understand.
	I'm an investigator.
	Oh, right.
	What evidence do you have?
	You have a photograph that shows exactly what.
	Okay, I was at 11,200 feet within the Colorado Rockies.
	It was 11.30 at night.
	I had a Sony night shot camera with an external infrared light source.
	Ooh.
	And what I would do, Art, I was in... I was, uh...
	Following up on a very, very credible report from two professionals who were extreme hiking.
	And so I believe that absolutely that they saw something.
	So what I would do is I would slowly pan tree lines with the camera.
	And during my two hours of panning, which started at 1130 at night, I literally got the animal's right shoulder, his entire face, The top of a sagittal crest.
	How much detail is in the face?
	Well, it is a night shot, so naturally it's grainy.
	But Art, I was 20 feet away.
	I do have some of the best photo experts who specialize in the area of video forensics.
	And?
	And what have they said?
	And they have the tape now.
	But what I have now is pretty impressive.
	But I'm leaving nothing to chance.
	Um, the first thing I did is I sent it to NASA.
	NASA?
	This is going to be a whole can of worms here, but I actually... Why would you send it to NASA?
	Well, I got a disclaimer from them and I sent the tape to them because I happen to have done a project with NASA eight years ago.
	Still had a contact there.
	I got the tape in the door under the auspices of I have something on a tape that I cannot explain.
	Art, what they did is they analyzed the tape and after three days, they got back to me saying, and I quote, Jeff, what you have on the tape is for sure a bipedal subject.
	However, without thermal imaging, there would be no way for us to determine absolutely whether or not The top of that, as you call, this is them talking, sagittal crest, is prosthesis, or if it's actual skin tissue.
	Alright, look, this sounds so interesting.
	I presume you've got not just videotape, but probably stills, don't you?
	Yes.
	Alright, why don't you send me the stills?
	Why don't we begin there?
	You have a computer, right?
	Yes, I do.
	Alright, and then you have JPEGs, I presume?
	Yes, I do.
	Why don't you send me the JPEGs and allow me to put them up so everybody can look?
	Okay, I'll tell you what, I'm at that number tomorrow during the day.
	Yes?
	It would be, I'll tell you what, the photographs that are being analyzed will be downloaded onto a disk and sent to me and I'm told that they're going to be a minimum of 300% Better than what I actually have right now, you know?
	You want to wait for that?
	Is that what you're saying?
	I would rather.
	All right, how long are we going to be waiting?
	Oh, well, I can certainly send you a few now.
	Do it.
	OK.
	Art Bell at Minespring.com.
	OK, Art.
	All right.
	I'll look for them and I'll get them up on the website right away.
	Sounds great.
	All right, my friend.
	Thank you.
	And we'll be in touch on the phone.
	Yes, by all means, send me what you have now and then send me the enhancements when you get those.
	Gee, I don't know if I would have sent photographs to NASA or not.
	Not with all the controversy about NASA and photos.
	Yikes!
	But, okay, we'll get what he has that has not gone to NASA here shortly and we'll get it up on the website for you.
	How about that?
	He said that he had been given a tip from some extreme hikers.
	And that brought to mind something that I just want to quickly cover.
	I don't know whether any of you out there watch Survivor.
	I do.
	My wife and I watch Survivor.
	Avid fans, actually.
	And now, Miss Barnett's actually older thing called Echo Challenge.
	Have you seen Echo Challenge?
	It's running now.
	Echo Challenge is Survivor times 10,000.
	To be in Echo Challenge, you have to pay.
	And then you have to travel to Borneo.
	And then you have to be willing to suffer unbelievably.
	I mean, I watch people pulling leeches out of their belly buttons.
	And anywhere else you can think of.
	I watch people that have gone to the point of exhaustion and way beyond to a life-threatening state trying to go through this course.
	And these people do it voluntarily.
	I suppose there's... Why do we climb the mountain?
	Well, because the mountain's there, right?
	Why do we put ourselves through torture?
	Well, because the torture's there and we want to test ourselves.
	But personally, after watching, what, three episodes now?
	Three hours?
	I think these people have lost their minds.
	Lost their minds.
	I would never in a million years... Even if there was a million dollar prize at the end of the line.
	Up it!
	Five million dollars.
	No way would I do that!
	Anybody who's seen Echo Challenge can probably relate to what I'm saying.
	Or maybe, maybe not.
	Maybe you're out there saying, hey, I'd try it.
	Well, I wouldn't.
	Yesterday's episode had some guy who had a... He was on a bicycle portion of it, going over land, and he did a flip, came off the front of the bike, went mid-air, and impaled himself on a stick.
	A big stick, a branch, which went right through his chest up into his arm.
	It had to be a helicopter down.
	So, I'm interested, you know, in what would cause a person to go through this, to set themselves up for this torture.
	Now, I understand there is a firm psychology somewhere behind it.
	But none that I can grasp.
	I suppose there are people who just want to suffer and want to test themselves to the absolute, utter limit and beyond.
	So when I say these people went through misery, that doesn't even begin to describe what they went through.
	For almost no price.
	I mean, the likelihood of placing in the money is almost zero.
	The likelihood of finishing is not quite 50-50 or something like that.
	And the likelihood of getting hurt is very high indeed.
	Maybe even dying.
	And yet, they have an echo... Barnett sets it up, they have an echo challenge, and they have hundreds of people who go down there to be part of this... this... this... self-torture.
	If you haven't caught it, it's still running.
	My wife would have to tell me where.
	I forget where it's running, but on one of the cable channels.
	It's really worth checking out.
	Just to observe the human condition.
	And I think the people that are doing this have lost their minds.
	They're absolutely crazy.
	But it's still very entertaining to watch.
	Because, you know, you sit there and you're entertained going, These people, out of their blinking minds!
	I wouldn't do something like that.
	Why would they?
	Well, because they're crazy.
	But it's very entertaining.
	I'll give it that.

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