Art Bell

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April 3, 2001 - Art Bell

03:27:58

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Gilbert Lavoi - Shroud of Turin

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01:21:06

dr gilbert lavoi

52:16

sean david morton

14:01

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Right decisions.
		On News Talk 1230 WMFR, you'll get more business news than any other radio station.
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		5-0-5.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening and or good morning wherever you may be across this great land of ours.
		From the island of Guam, way out there in the Pacific, across states of Naples, we're tightly a different day to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands.
		South all the way into South America, north to the Pole, and worldwide on the internet, this is coast to coast a.m.
unidentified		And I'm Marcelle.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'd like to welcome WBBD in Wheeling, West Virginia, 1,400 on the dial, normally rocking and rolling at this hour, but, well, we'll be rocking and rolling just a different time.
unidentified		So, WBBD, Wheeling, West Virginia, glad to have you along.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's so much.
		Where to begin?
		I guess this way.
		We dodged a bullet yesterday.
		Earth dodged a bullet.
		That's the only way you can put it.
		The size of the solar flare that we had, had it hit Earth, had it been pointed at Earth directly, may have taken out all of our satellites, or the majority of our satellites, may have taken my show off the air, might have taken your HBO and cable and direct satellite off the air.
		It was a mother.
		Let's see.
		Currently, we've just had an X-Class flare.
		Whether or not it's from the same region, I don't know.
		Let me read you.
		Solar activity forecast, solar activity expected to be high.
		Region 9393, that's the big mother.
		Will continue to be a threat for major flares and put-out events during the next three days, although the probabilities will decrease as it rotates around the solar limb.
		Region 9415 also clearly has shown major flare potential, is expected to be a source of M-class flares and probably additional isolated X-class flares.
		The forecast says geomagnetic fields should increase to minor to major storm levels during the next 24 hours.
		Listen to this.
		The two recent CMEs, coronal mass ejections from region 93 and 93, are likely to have combined by now, and the size and possible partial earthward component of the second CME creates the expectation of some interaction at Earth.
		That would be us.
		The response is less certain than in the case of a full halo CME and probably less dramatic than the result in the case of a direct hit, head-on hit.
		I'm reading what they're saying.
		The forecast is for minor storm levels at the mid-latitudes with major storm levels at higher latitudes.
		So you guys up north are going to have a nice show.
		Minor storm conditions expected to persist throughout the second day.
		This was really something.
		This was the biggest one they think they've ever recorded.
		Might have been an X-22, which would make it bigger than the X-20, which was gigantic back in 89, how well I remember that one.
		And so Earth dodged a bullet.
		There is no other way to put it.
		We'll see.
		By the way, I talked with Major Ed Dames about, oh, I don't know, 10 minutes before showtime.
		He'll be here Friday.
		And he said he's got some pretty grim news going to be putting on his Dr. Doom hat.
		Well, he's never taken it off for me.
		He's tried a couple times, but the news has always been bad.
		And he says, this time, it's really bad.
		He did not elucidate.
		We'll see.
		Well, the big story, I guess, is our airplane, huh?
		They're not giving it back.
		And I've been trying to, I've been watching the president and the way he's been I'm sure you saw that, right?
		And I'm trying to figure out from the way he's reacting.
		I'm sure that you're the same way, and we haven't learned how to read President Bush yet.
		Exactly.
		So I can't tell you what I read in his face when he's talking about it.
		It is time for our servicemen and women to return home, he said.
		There was a, you know, we got to meet with him and they're apparently in good shape.
		Crew is in good shape.
		Nobody knows about the pilot.
		I keep waiting to hear about that.
		And he says, you know, relationships between America and China will be damaged unless the American crews return quickly.
		And we want our airplane back, too, by the way.
		And then there were other warnings from the administration about, and they better not be tearing into it.
		They better not be taking stuff off our airplane.
unidentified		Well, of course that's what they're doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anybody knows that.
		That's what we'd be doing.
		That's what we've done.
		Anybody who has a windfall of an airplane coming right down into their territory can always Claim it was in their airspace, and they can always take it apart and look at it.
		It's high-tech U.S. stuff, and the Chinese like high-tech U.S. stuff, so you know, they're pouring over it right now.
		Probably taking out little pieces and parts.
		I wouldn't want to be the person trying to fly that home, assuming we get it back.
		Earthquake in Japan, central part of Japan, late Tuesday, injured six just hours after another quake.
		Well, these quakes and sunspots and flares go together as far as I'm concerned.
		They always have.
		Our stock market.
unidentified		Sheesh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Dow fell almost 300 points.
		The NASDAQ 100 plus.
		Really, really getting to be rough on Wall Street.
		And by the way, you may recall Sean David Morton made a prediction with regard to the stock market.
		And it was date-specific.
		Basically, Sean said if the NASDAQ were to go below 1700, we may be in for a very, very hard economic period.
		Well, the NASDAQ closed at 1672.
		John in Tampa, Florida says, how about an update from Sean?
		You know, I kind of thought the same thing, so maybe we'll dial Sean up toward the bottom of the hour and ask him if this NASDAQ closing fits with his prediction.
		And if so, what does it mean?
		Well, one thing's for sure, the NASDAQ can't fall 2,000 more.
		I watched the guys on MSNBC, and some of them are pretty funny.
		I like the guy with the longer hair.
		And he was sort of pulling it out today, and he was saying, you know, I'm really fed up with all this.
		I can't watch the market anymore.
		I'm going to go fishing.
		I forget what he said.
		I'm gone somewhere.
		You could do the reporting.
		But I've sort of had it.
		I mean, he's so depressed.
		He always was wanting to dig down and find, you know, the few companies, even on a bad day, that are doing really well and promote that because he's a positive kind of guy.
		But he's like, he's had it.
		He's going to go fishing.
		He doesn't even want to report on it anymore.
		Well, again, reporting on this, because here it comes again.
		Two of three cloned calves under the care of university researchers have died in recent weeks causing another delay in the race to clone livestock for commercial use.
		Researchers at Copper State University Chico believe the two calves died from an intestinal infection.
		Such immune problems are common in cloned calves.
		Well, you know, I don't know if I'm happy about science getting ready to clone animals that we might eat, for example.
unidentified		Why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, what's the matter with the old process of...
		We all know the old process.
		What's the matter with that?
		Why do we have to clone?
		Maybe they'll, you know, it'll turn out that their immune systems are wrong and they're not good to eat, and now they're going to clone human beings.
		And I just don't know about all of this.
		I think we are rushing in where angels fear to tread.
		I just don't think we ought to do it.
		I don't think we ought to do it yet.
		And then here, this story is back to, again, I get it today.
		It's apparently a pretty big story for Yeti hunters and Yeti fanciers.
		Bigfoot.
		The headline is, Yeti's hair defies DNA analysis by Mark Henderson, science correspondent.
		British scientists on the Trail of the Yeti have found some of the best evidence yet for the existence of the mythical Himalayan creature, a sample of hair that is now proven impossible to identify.
		Genetic tests on the hair, which was gathered from a tree, have failed to match its DNA to that of any known animal.
		So what do we have?
unidentified		Hmm?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, listen, we're going to take a break here.
		I've got a little more, and then we'll have an open line.
		Stay right where you are.
		Are you afraid of losing more money in today's markets?
		Well, I don't blame you.
		I really don't blame you.
		I mean, look, look at the Dow and the NASDAQ today.
		Anyway, you don't have to be in fear.
		There is a way to protect your investments, but you need to know where to look and what to buy.
		Please listen very carefully.
		The most important aspect of investing is diversification.
		We all know that.
		But what you may not know is at today's levels, gold has a 20% profit already built in.
		In fact, I'm holding an article from Barron's magazine that says gold could hit $850 an ounce.
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		Call my friends at Lear Financial and request their free gold diversification guide.
		The guide outlines all the benefits gold has to offer and shows you step-by-step how you can use gold to protect and grow your savings and retirement.
		Mention my name, Art Bell, and they'll also send you a new audio seminar, how to safely double your investment returns with gold, a $29 value for both absolutely free.
		Call.
		Call now at 800-474-4259.
		That's 800-474-4259.
		Don't let your family savings and retirement dwindle away.
		Call Lear Financial Now for your free audio seminar and gold diversification guide.
		That's 800-474-4259.
		Now, how are you doing around the middle?
		How are you doing with the Battle of the Bulge?
		Not too well?
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unidentified		It really works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, on my website right now, another UFO photograph that I'm sending to all you Pixel people with love.
		This one is pretty, pretty interesting.
		It comes from Asmodeus, who writes, if Phil Craft is right, then this just may be a burdened ship.
		Now, it's a photograph taken in Texas in 1990.
		And you're looking down a long dirt road with trees on either side to give you a reference in the photograph.
		And here's this incredibly large UFO way down there.
		Again, with reference in the foreground of the trees, there is the UFO way down there.
		Looks pretty good to me.
		I'm sure the Pixel people will rip it apart, as usual.
		The interesting thing, of course, is that the Pixel people have ripped apart photographs that are absolutely genuine.
		Makes me wonder about them.
		They haven't done that.
		But nevertheless, I turn it over to you for your perusal and whatever you wish to do with it.
unidentified		Another UFO, photograph, big UFO.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, the electricity shortage in California.
		This is worth considering.
		There's a fellow named Angelo Arvademiz, I believe.
		Anyway, Angelo, when rolling blackouts hit the state of January, Angelo got rid of one of his two walk-in freezers February and March when state officials announced utility rate hikes for residents and businesses.
		He replaced his air conditioner, ran it only a few hours a day.
		Still, the Riverside County businessman knows that he faces a very long, hot summer in the desert after the California Public Utilities Commission announced a 42% electricity hike.
		Well, right-oh.
		He said, my bill has gone from get this, folks, $900 to $1,400 at a restaurant, right?
		Even with all the conservation steps and it's not even summer.
		This is what I wonder about, folks.
		It really is.
		He goes on, what am I going to do when it hits 100, 110, 120 degrees?
		I have to run the air conditioner, he said.
		I'm probably going to have to close for the summer.
		This restaurant, right?
unidentified		Close it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It just simply won't be worth it to stay open.
		Then I have to worry about my employees.
		How will they get by?
		And I, you know, I'm with them.
		It's a question that many residents and business owners are asking in this high desert community about 130 miles southeast of L.A., where summer swelter can easily top 120 degrees.
		What are those people supposed to do?
		Isn't it likely going to turn some of those towns into ghost towns?
		I mean it, if you can't operate a business, if you can't afford to keep your house cool in the summertime, if it becomes so expensive, then you're going to pick up sticks and go somewhere else.
		Pete, get me out of here, right?
		And what are we going to end up with?
		We're going to end up with ghost towns.
		Speaking of ghosts, they're not exactly ghosts.
		They're shadow people.
		And this is driving me absolutely insane.
		I have no idea what to do about this.
		I now have over 3,500 emails.
		And as you know, the minute I open up the lines, I'm going to start getting shadow people calls.
		This is something, it's the proverbial can of worms, really big can, I'll tell you.
		One fellow called up, talked about the shadow people that he could see in peripheral vision, corner of his eye kind of stuff.
		We began a small discussion about it that began, it absolutely became a tidal wave of faxes and emails and phone calls.
		And all of a sudden, everybody, it's like everybody who had been holding back decided they're not going to hold back anymore.
		And they're out there saying, by God, you know, I've seen those things too.
		A lot of them not in peripheral vision, but straight on.
		And so I don't know what to do about this.
		I'm still looking for an expert in shadow people.
		I know that Brad Steiger, I am reminded by some of you, wrote a little bit about shadow people somewhere.
		So I could ask Brad.
		But this is so, is so overwhelming.
		I don't know what to end.
		And remote view the shadow people.
		As a concept, remote view the shadow people.
		Everybody's seeing them, everybody.
		And that's an exaggeration, but when I get 3,500 emails on one subject like that, all of a sudden, you know that somebody lit the fuse out there somewhere.
		It's an explosion that was getting ready to happen.
		Gordon in Portland, Oregon writes, We are lucky to see the shadow people because they're out taking their pet rods for a walk.
		Their pet rods.
		Indeed.
		Then maybe some of you can help me out with this.
		Arn, I had a question about a past show.
		I do not recall the exact date, but I think it was last month.
		You were doing a show on time travel.
		Had a guest who said that he was from the year 2004 or something like that around there.
		You asked him what we could expect from the future.
		I always do.
		For some reason, I recall him saying that the China problems will worsen, and he said something about a plane crash.
		I was wondering if you recalled the caller and what was said, and the answer is, no, I don't.
		You know what?
		I don't.
		I don't recall the caller specifically.
		We have a lot of predictions made here, some about China.
		But if he said something about an airplane, I am interested.
		So if any of the rest of you remember the specifics of that, whether it hits what has happened here, I'd like to know.
		Hey, Art, remember the slip on your show that you detected after watching CNN?
		Remember the night Mirror was going down and one of the Russians said, maybe I'll see you on Mir 2?
		Well, guess what, folks?
		The Russian government is considering building a successor to the recently abandoned Mir space station, although there is no money to do it now, according to a top cabinet official.
		Deputy Prime Minister gave no details of the possible Mir 2, saying only that Russia's participation in the 16-nation international space station provides a technical base for building a new Russian station.
		He said the U.S.-led international project would remain Russia's top priority.
		Mir's demise in the South Pacific, after a record-setting 15 years in orbit, was bemoaned by many Russian politicians and cosmonauts as the end of Soviet-era space might.
		So they're saying that they might build a Mir 2.
		That'd be about $400 million, bottom line.
		You know, discount price Mir 2, $400 million.
		But they can't afford that.
		They don't have the money.
	And yet, you'll recall the cosmonaut as I caught immediately saying, well, maybe I'll see you on Mirror 2.
	And I said, what?
	What Mirror 2?
	And this from England.
	This tale apparently proves that crime does pay.
	If you're fishing for elective surgery to go along with your stolen goods, get this, folks.
	A 24-year-old supermarket shoplifter stuffed five lobsters in his pants and sprinted for the door.
	But he never had a chance.
	The violated crustaceans brought the thief to his knees in front of startled cashiers when they fastened their powerful claws about his delicate parts.
	Doctors were able to remove the animals with pliers.
	They say the thief will fully recover, except for one more detail.
	It was a do-it-yourself asectomy.
	This man's daring supermarket exploits make him one of the few Darwin Award winners to live and tell the tale.
	The supermarket manager declined to press charges, saying why the culprit has already gone through enough pain to learn his lesson.
	Five pissed-off lobsters in your pants.
	an idea.
unidentified		Love is what a heart is never a day.
		I'm so glad I'm in here.
		He's gonna be over when I get healed.
		Love is what a heart is never a day.
		Love is what a heart is never a day.
		He's gonna be over when I get healed.
		Love is what a heart is never a day.
		News and information.
		There's only one station in the High Point area that actually specializes in providing news and information.
		Newsstock 1230 WMFR has been in the business of keeping the High Point area informed for 66 years.
		Larry Craven brings you 16 local newscasts each day.
		We have ABC News at the top of the hour and ABC headlines at the bottom of the hour.
		We have our SkyWatch meteorologist Elliott Abrams, Brian May, and Bob Larson with the latest weather.
		We have Larry Craven and Judy Mendenhall with the Chamber of Commerce Show each Wednesday at 9 to keep you up to date on local business news.
		We have ABC Business Week and CBSMarketWatch.com to keep you up to date with national business news.
		We have the Dennis Elliott Show each afternoon from 3 until 5 with local topics, local guests, and your phone calls.
		And we have the number one radio commentator in the country, Paul Harvey, with his news and comment and the rest of the story.
		News and information on Newstalk 1230 WMFR and WMFR.com.
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		Want to grow bigger tomatoes this year?
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		Garden Talk Saturday mornings from 8 until 9 on Newstalk 1230 WMFR.
		Hello, this is Judy Meadinghall, inviting you to join Larry Craven and me on News Talk 1230 WMFR each Wednesday from 9 to 10 in the morning.
		Ours is a new show featuring the High Point Chamber of Commerce.
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		Each Tuesday morning from 9 until 10 here on News Talk 1230 WMFR, I host Money Talk.
		Our show is your opportunity to have your questions answered about strategies to reduce tax liabilities and how to provide a comfortable and secure retirement.
		Don't deny yourself the information you need to make more out of your money.
		Money Talk each Tuesday morning from 9 until 10 on News Talk 1230 WMFR is CDS News.
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		A Canadian study suggests that women who breastfeed.
		Hi, I'm Lucinda Bassett, founder of the Midwest Center for Stress and Anxiety.
		I suffered with anxiety and depression and panic attacks for over 20 years.
		I was afraid of everything.
		My thoughts, losing control and embarrassing myself, death and dying.
		I was totally consumed with worry, but I didn't know that these symptoms were from anxiety and depression.
		I believe I suffered with anxiety and depression all those years so that I could help other people do what I've done, recover completely.
		Our program helps.
		I've been told that he just found and believed the name of his latest friend.
		He called and talked, and I heard him say that he had the longest one his man.
		The brilliant green eyes anywhere.
		And we'll play.
		No one smiled, but he's a smile.
		And we can walk.
		He was gone, but still his words kept returning What else was there for me to do and cry?
		Would you be a...
		Wanna take a ride?
	Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	And to reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Arthur on the Premier Radio Networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it about this song that just gets into my soul and stays there?
		It's not like any other Presley song.
		It's just different enough that it just, I don't know.
		It's one of those things that keeps going around in your head.
		We're going to check in with Sean David Morton in a moment because he made a prediction about the NASDAQ that has a lot of people pretty shaken, so we will ask him about that.
		From John in Delta, Colorado, Art, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car.
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		There is little doubt the weather continues to get worse.
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		Some of the most frightening predictions have been about the impact of global storms changing the surface of our earth and directly affecting you.
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		That crackles us into the world of prophecy for a few moments here.
		Now, we had Sean David Morton on the show, and he made a specific prediction.
		I've got a fax here from John in Tampa, actually email.
		According to Sean David Morton, the bottom of the NASDAQ was supposed to be around 1780.
		Sean said that if the NASDAQ were to go below 1700, we may be in for a very, very hard economic time.
		Well, the NASDAQ closed at 1672.
		How about an update from Sean?
		John in Tampa also said, P.S. He calls it this Y-class sunflare has precursor event written all over it.
		I'm not a fatalist.
		I do try to be optimistic, but one thing I do not believe in is blind optimism.
		You have to see the forest and the trees.
		So maybe we'll even ask about that.
		But here's Sean David Morton.
		Hi, Sean.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
		Great to be back with you.
		I certainly didn't think I'd be back on this soon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I just wanted, just a few minutes, Sean, because I wanted to ask you about the prediction you had made.
		He didn't have it quite right.
		What was the precise prediction?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I'll make the exact quote, and I'll actually read it verbatim out of the February 21st, 2001 issue 68 of the Delphi Associates newsletter, where I said, and we talked about this on the 2nd of March on your show too, that as I write today, which was actually February 19th of 2001, the NASDAQ was at 2,346, and the Dow Jones Industrial Average was at 10,715.
		And then I said, listen closely, the NASDAQ will continue a downward trend in the next six weeks through late March to early April, and the bottom of this projected wave will be around April 5th through the 17th.
		So we're off it by less than two days.
		At this point, and April 5th through the 17th, 2001, and the barrier resistance line will be 1,789.69.
		Now, interestingly enough, just before I continue with the quote, on the 22nd of March, the NASDAQ actually bounced down to 1792 and then skyrocketed back up again.
		So I only missed it by about 2.31, then skyrocketed back up to about 200 or so.
		So to continue the quote, at this point, one of two things will happen, and you would be foolish indeed not to pay attention to what I'm about to say.
		If the NASDAQ continues down below 1700, which of course it did today, literally just two days before my projected low for this, which is the barrier resistance line for this wave, in other words, the floor, the cellar, the tank, the sewer, we are in major trouble and nothing anyone can do is going to save the massive bust in tech stocks.
		This will be the beginning of the Silicon Valley Dust Bowl, the computer depression of the 21st century.
		Hordes of jobless internet geeks and slick software salesmen will be roaming the streets, turning over coffee machines at Starbucks, pawning their Rolex with BMWs and razor scooters and ransacking comic book stores.
		And I go on to say my own brother didn't listen to me.
		Oh, gosh.
		And you'll actually remember, too, that all the way back, I think, in 1998, where I talked about the October 2000 stock market climate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was your brother heavily in tech?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Oh, man.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		My brother was in, he had huge shares in a company called Interwoven, and he lost about $2 million.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, your phone has big-time hum on it.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it does?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'm sorry.
		Let me see if I can fix this.
		I'm on the good phone, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the good phone?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's the good phone.
		I'll try the other one.
		Is this better?
		Yeah, I can hear the hum, too.
		I'm sorry.
		Maybe we can fix it at the break.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No problem.
		There is no break.
		I already did the break.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
		Anyway, the whole point of this is that I had two scenarios of this.
		The second scenario, which was less depressing and more optimistic and more likely, and I'll just continue the quote here, because once again, this is from the February 21st newsletter.
		The NASDAQ hits the barrier line of 1789 in April.
		First quarter warning, earnings are announced, which will not be as bad as expected, and it begins a gradual zigzagging sideways motion back upwards.
		Also, new advances in genetics and biostocks, including new configurations for computers and revelations about new super broadband transmission speeds, will be announced.
		As this year will be future shock whiplash all the way, these truly incredible new techniques will fuel the NASDAQ recovery, and it should hit the projected high for this year of 4,117.19 in late September of October.
		The only problem is that the first scenario seems to be taking effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's the problem.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Right, and that's the first scenario which was below 1,700.
		This is what I think is happening, and it's very interesting because the financial markets very much connect into your show and a lot of the things that you talk about in this program.
		I mean, this is the physical reality of the technological advances that are about ready to occur in internet broadband speeds, nanotechnology, computer transmissions, and all of the stuff that seems to be,
		we're right on the edge of downloading a huge amount of information from the black ops shadow world of places like the Department of Naval Intelligence, the National Reconnaissance Office, the NRO, and our little gray buddies out at Area 51.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the Chinese are downloading new information, too.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		A Massive amount of it, and there is usually about a 10-year lag.
		And if you remember, you know, way back in the good old days in 1990, 1991, when we were talking about the DNA supercomputers and the computers out of Area 51 that they called the beast computers, sure, battle engagement area simulation and tracking, etc., etc.
		This is what I think is happening with the market right now.
		I think that what's going on is that we're seeing a carefully manipulated collapse of a series of these big company stocks directly into the sewer right before the release of the next echelon of super advanced high technology.
		So all of the spooky stuff that comes out of Area 51 that's about to be downloaded into the public sector by companies like OmniGon, Seltera, Connection Technologies, all of these companies have become fronts for very, very high-level organizations.
		For example, Connectect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back engineered technology.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Back engineered technology that specifically has to do with things like the broadband speed transmissions.
		Just to give you an idea, the connection technologies, you can actually find them on the web at connecttech.com.
		These guys are sort of like the, they're like the garage, they're like the front garage for the National Security Agency.
		These guys sell everything from engines to wiring to super advanced carburet.
		I mean, all kinds of wild stuff that the NSA basically just downloads out in the public sector.
		The other thing is, too, is that when you have a company like, for example, a company like OmniGon that's about ready to go public, this company has gone from about six bucks a share to literally like 24 cents a share.
		Now, what better way when you're about to introduce a new technology than to basically collapse your stocks to the point of where they're virtually useless, corner the market on your own technology, and then turn around and release the next phase into the public sector.
		It seems as though with these companies, and to give you an example, with a company like Army.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's too many million investors to just sort of decide to collapse the market.
		I mean, how do you do that?
		There's millions of people investing actually now in losing in technology.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Right, and losing, yeah, losing substantially.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So many millions of people that how do you orchestrate anything?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are a lot of reasons why the stock market's been dropping, and I think none of them have anything to do with what Clinton did for eight years or George Bush.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I think the biggest factor is that Alan Greenspan, since the crash in 92, instituted a totally illegal, what he called his plunge protection team to rig the market and huge sums of cash, resulting in high, and the horribly unstable market that we've had.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounds like a version of the plumbers or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly, right.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And that coupled with the U.S. government's reluctance to rein in a whole series of unscrupulous financial practices such as pooling have basically led to this extremely unstable market.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but in a way, you're telling me you're personally optimistic, but your prophecy, on the other hand, was pretty specific with regard to the number, and it did close at 1672.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So separate personal optimism from actual prophecy.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		All right, this is what I think is going to occur.
		The market in general, what's happened is that they've basically shaken out all the dot-com suckers.
		That you basically, I think the most interesting effect of this is, remember all those stadiums all across the country?
		They're, you know, 3Com Park and dot-com this and that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Qualcomm.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		You know, those are going to go the way of the dinosaur.
		They're already scrambling to find different names.
		You might be able to buy one cheap, Art.
		It could be the Packers might be playing in Art Bell Stadium pretty soon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why would that be cool?
		No, actually, I wouldn't want a stadium.
		Anyway, so you think that you're personally optimistic, but with regard to this specific prophecy, can it happen?
unidentified		In other words, let me put it like this.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Here's the best way to put it.
		The first thing that's going to happen is that the financial markets are going to do very well.
		I still, in my prediction, believe that as the NASDAQ began to tank, that the DAC would go quack and the DAO would go wow, as they say, the trend being your friend.
		That the best investments right now, there's a whole stack of them, is to get, obviously those who did not listen to me before and get out of the NASDAQ, the best way to go is to get, yeah, like my brother, like my own brother, yeah, is to get into the financial markets.
		I think that Greenspan, when the Fed finally meets in May, is going to cut interest rates even further.
		I think you're going to see the interest rates, and I'll make a wild prediction here, but you'll see interest rates go down to between 4 and 4.25%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, the Japanese are at zero.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never heard of an economy going to zero interest rates, but they're at zero.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		They've cut everything to try to basically try to stop the slide in their economy.
		There's a whole number of reasons why they can do that because their social security system is linked directly into their savings and loans.
		So they have an entire system, which, strangely enough, was actually set up by Douglas MacArthur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, bottom line, you think the markets are going to be okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're going to start zigzagging and go back up again.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Let me say this about the NASDAQ.
		The NASDAQ in the next, watch it the next three weeks.
		If in the next three weeks we see the NASDAQ climb in a steady sideways path back up to about 1800 or so, then I think that the NASDAQ will be okay.
		I think that the Dow Jones will continue to go up if people invest in financial stocks like JPMorgan, Washington Mutual.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, but if the NASDAQ doesn't go up, then what?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Then we're looking at, once again, I think about 60 to 75% of the major computer companies and dot-com companies will be bought up by the majors like Microsoft and Cisco Systems, and that those are still going to be your best bets.
		That now is actually an excellent time to invest in certain companies like Cisco Systems, Corning because of fiber optics.
		Microsoft is far from finished.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Walmart is going to be a great investment because of- A ton.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I'm saying that what's happening is that everybody Realized finally that Yahoo was simply not worth as much as Texaco, obviously.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And I've been saying this for a long time: that as the NASDAQ begins to collapse, that there are certain fabulous buys that if the market begins to climb out of the hole.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but right now, I'll be the fatalist here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right now, a lot of people who took a bath in the Nasdaq are selling their regular stocks, their blue chip stocks to cover margins in the techs.
unidentified		I still see it as a...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, they're not finished.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		The big end of the wave that I see, I mean, if you really want the dire prediction, the end of the wave, this whole ride happens about 2005.
		And I've been on your show over and over and over again talking about how the market was going to go to just under 12,000.
		I mean, I said that years ago when the market was at like 6,000, 5,000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I did say that.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And I mean, the markets, I think the Dow Jones will still climb back up to by October of, well, I'd say the spring of next year by 2002.
		I think we'll see the Dow Jones back around well over 12,000.
		I think we'll see it at about 13,100 or so.
		The big collapse is going to come in 2005.
		Every single indicator that I've seen, every Elliott wave I've done, every chart I've done, has everything hitting a wall in 2005.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Listen, one other quick thing.
		Maybe you have nothing to say on this, but yesterday Earth dodged a bullet.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		We had a blast from the sun that perhaps was an X22, biggest one they've ever seen since they've been recording these kinds of things.
		And it's like if it had been two days earlier, it would have hit Earth, probably knocked out the majority of satellites and done a lot more damage, really would have clobbered the economy.
		Have you seen anything at all about the sun?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, absolutely, because the financial markets are all related directly back to the sun, because the sun controls the most primal function in the human body, which is the limbic system.
		The entire markets and all economies run on two basic principles, greed and fear.
		And what happens is when people get greedy, they buy.
		When they get afraid, they sell.
		And what happens at a solar, whenever you have usually a massive solar ejecta, it triggers something in the limbic system of the brain, and you have these massive collapses in the market.
		And for the last few years, as we've seen, I mean, there's a reason why the market is as huge as it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe people have a primal fear about the sun doing this because at some time in our distant past, something came along from the sun and wiped out a lot of life.
		Maybe.
		And maybe we have some sort of genetic memory of some event in the past.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of things.
		There's a lot of strange things going on, and I'm sure you've seen, I remember as far back as 1996 when Pleiadian contactee Audre Ain told me that the Pleiadians were doing something with the sun and showed me a series of photographs that he claimed to have actually taken on a craft that had the sun in the background with the Pleiadians.
		He said we're somehow fixing the magnetic field of the sun and that the sun would get, that without this the sun would get completely out of control right around 2000, 2001 or so.
		And now with a lot of the, as a matter of fact, I'm working on two parts of the newsletter right now.
		I'm working on sort of a UFO section which shows a series of photos from the SOHO satellite that then are compared to a series of Pleiadian spacecraft that are supposed to be around the sun fixing it.
		And you actually see the SOHO photos with these craft the same shape.
		And I'm also working on everything that I think people should be buying right now that if they're selling out of the market or if they got out of market when they told them to get out, then they're sitting pretty.
		But I'm putting everything together right now as far as a whole series of analysis of what I think is not only going to survive, but what I think is going to thrive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, plug your newspaper, a newsletter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you get your newsletter?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		It's called the Delphi Associates newsletter.
		There's a lot of ways you can order it.
		We have an 800 number.
		The 800 number is 888.
		That's 888-452-7999.
		888-452-7999.
		You can order it off our website if you go to www.delphiassociates.org.
		And actually, you can just go to artbell.com also, and there's a link directly to our website.
		I think it's Art Bell.
		That's right.
		And you can go to the shopping cart there and order it.
		Or you can send us a check.
		It's $60 for a one-year 12-month subscription, which is a hell of a deal when you figure that the best financial analysts out there charge anywhere from $1,000 to $1,500 for their newsletter, and I beat them every single time.
		So, you know, it's a $60 deal.
		We also have an honored elder discount, those over $65 for $45, or we give the newsletter actually free to anybody that's indigent, seriously handicapped, sick, or incarcerated.
		So, you know, we're not trying to squeeze anybody.
		And also, let me see, 888-452-7999.
		You can order off the website where you can send us a check to PRI, Prophecy Research Institute, and our address is 2207 Hermosa Avenue, H-E-R-M-O-S-A.
		That's Hermosa Beach, California, 90254.
		P-R-I, 2207-Hermosa Avenue, H-E-R-M-O-S-A.
		Hermosa Beach, California, 90254.
		And we are a religious educational organization, so all subscriptions to the newsletter are tax deductible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Sean, thank you, my friend.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		I hope to be back on the show for a little bit longer.
		So I'll talk you soon, but I really appreciate the chance, and go get him, pal.
		You're doing great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		Take care, Sean.
		That's Sean David Morton.
		We'll have him back, of course, and do the whole show.
		But I just, because of the fact that the NASDAQ did hit figure that he was talking about, I thought it wise to get the word from him.
		And I'm not sure about what I just heard.
		I guess, why am I not sure about what I just heard?
		In other words, the prophecy could go as predicted below 1700 as it went below 1700.
		But I think he just said, watch it the next couple of weeks.
		If it makes sideways up moves, then it'll continue up up to about 1,800, he said.
		I think that sums it up.
		I'm Art Bell.
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		This is Coast to Coast AM with I Bell from the Kingdom of Nigh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you ever wondered if Jesus was real?
		If everything written in the Bible is real, but especially whether the man, Son of God, Jesus, in the flesh, walked on earth.
		Have you wondered about that?
		I sure have.
		Boy, have I wondered.
		I mean, is there any greater question?
		Probably not.
		Not in importance, not in the long run, because, you know, we're all here for the short run.
		Tonight, Dr. Gilbert Lavoy is my guest, and he has been researching the Shroud of Turin, and he says that he can prove that not only is the Shroud real, that the carbon dating is wrong, but that it was Christ, indeed Christ.
		That image was Christ, the one of the Bible, the Son of God.
		And that's who we're going to be talking to here in a moment.
		He's a native of Springfield, Massachusetts, graduated from Boston College and the Medical College of Virginia.
		He then attended Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene, Public Health, earning an MPH in internal international medicine, actually.
		He is an internist, by the way.
		Dr. Lavoie served two years in the U.S. Army as Chief of Epidemiology and of the European Command in Germany.
		I'm reading this from his website because it's a little too wide to print out.
		He then participated in the World Health Organization's smallpox eradication program, working in Bangladesh, board certified in internal medicine.
		Dr. Lavoy practiced internal medicine in the Boston area for many years.
		In 1990, he began working in occupational medicine and earned his boards in occupational medicine in 1977.
		So he's a mainstream doctor, folks.
		He's a recognized international authority on the Shroud of Turin, an international authority on the Shroud of Turin.
		For the last 22 years, he has pursued a medical and scriptural study of the Shroud, which some believe to be the burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth.
		Now, I'm not going to go on reading because it's a little hard reading directly from the website, but we have photographs on our website, as he does on his, that will track with the story we're telling.
		So you might want to log onto my website right now at www.artl.com.
		And there will be several options for you there.
		We've taken a little bit of care in tonight's program so that we could be sure you would all see these photographs.
		We have links, of course, to the Good Doctor's website.
		The book is Resurrected, Tangible Evidence That Jesus Rose from the Dead.
		The photographs that we're going to look at tonight are the first item we've got listed.
		We've got those on our website right now, multiple servers, exhibits of the Shroud.
		Those would be the photographs.
		They're also available on his website, which is called The Shroud of Jesus.
		And so all of that is up there right now.
		I suggest you begin making your way toward my website at www.artbell.com.
		You're welcome to go to his website.
		The only reason we put up photographs on ours is so that just in case, I mean, we have killed our share of websites, you know, we want you to be able to see those photographs one way or the other.
		So coming up in a moment, Dr. Lavoy.
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	Now, to Dr. Lavoy, to Boston, and Dr. Lavoy, who's up real late because it's after 2 o'clock in the morning in Boston, I guess.
	Doctor, welcome.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Nice to be with you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Happy to have you.
		I am, I guess I should start by telling you that I'm, well, what am I?
		I really don't know what I am.
		I doubt that I would be called a Christian by most Christians.
		I tend not to believe things that I can't lay my hands on and have proof for.
		I have a hard time making a leap of faith, which is necessary, I've always felt, to be a good Christian.
		And I just wanted you to know that up front.
		I guess I'm agnostic.
		I don't know.
		I don't know what I am.
		I'm something in the middle, something weird.
		You are a Christian, correct?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But there must be a little bit of me in you because you took off on a scientific journey to try and figure out if the shroud was real.
		So, I mean, there must be a little of me and you.
		Why not just take the usual leap of faith required by Christians and stop there?
		Why pursue, why did you begin to pursue this?
		Is what I'm asking.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're right.
		I did a little bit of me and you because from the point of view of looking at the Shroud, I was really a skeptic when I started.
		And I actually read a book about the Shroud many years ago.
		I was in college.
		I was in pre-med, and I saw a book called The Doctor of Calvary by Dr. Pierre Barbet.
		And I read that book.
		It was the first time I had heard about the Shroud.
		I was fascinated by it.
		And then I forgot about it until 1978 when I was in practice of medicine in Boston.
		And I opened the Boston Globe, and there was a picture of the Shroud.
		And I decided to, I talked to my wife about it.
		We decided we'd go and just take a look at it.
		And I was fascinated what I saw there.
		But when I came back, guys, I was still definitely a skeptic and approached this from definitely a scientific point of view.
		I don't need the shroud for my faith in the sense of, well, my faith is one thing, but the shroud was entirely different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe it's worth asking why a physician, and you guys in internal medicine, you're really busy.
		Why would a physician, even a Christian, take off on this quest in the first place?
		I mean, what drove you to this?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think as a physician, that was really, because of my background, I was fascinated with the blood marks and so forth that were on this cloth.
		And that's what sort of, I really approached this as a physician, you might say, looking at a patient at the bedside, you know, we're sort of investigative types.
		We're presented with a problem, and we have to find out the answer, generally for the welfare of the patient, of course.
		But from this point of view, it was just, it seemed like a medical mystery.
		What were these blood marks?
		Were they real?
		And so forth.
		In fact, when I started, the first thing I did is I went to see, this is 1978, 79, I went to see Dr. Ernst Kitchener at the Harvard University, who was just about ready to retire.
		He's one of the foremost experts on icons.
		And I went to him, and you'll see my skepticism.
		I said, how could, was there a painter who had done paintings like this or painted blood like we see on the Shroud of Turin?
		And I was very surprised when he told me and informed me that the Shroud of Turin was absolutely unique in the world.
		It did not fall into any artistic category at all.
		That I could look all I wanted, but I would never find a blood painted like the Shroud of Turin on any paintings.
		And indeed he was right.
		As I looked, I found absolutely nothing like this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do we know that's blood?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		It's in 1978, the STRIP group, which is a group of American scientists, about 30 or 30 American scientists, went over and what they did is they placed sticky tapes on the cloth.
		They placed it over the image area, over the blood area, and over just non-image areas and non-blood areas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what police forensics do, right?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not a police forensic person, but imagine they would do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I watched the OJ trial.
		They were talking about swatches.
		You remember that?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, swatches.
		That would be it.
		Yeah.
		I avoided that trial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, anyway, they talk about swatches.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They had the forensics experts there, and so I would presume what you're talking about, sticky tapes.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		They use these very special, you know, Q-tapes to do this, and they brought back material.
		Now, a doctor, Alan Adler, who I got to know very well, unfortunately, he just recently died, as a chemist at Western Connecticut University.
		Not only was he a chemist, but he was an expert in porphyrins, which is part of the chemistry of blood.
		He did some exquisite studies on this and proved without any doubt that what looks like blood on the Shroud of Turin is indeed blood.
		And we'll talk about this as we go along, about blood and about image, because we're really talking about two phenomena here on the shroud.
		One is blood marks and one is image.
		And for the people that maybe not familiar with the shroud of Turin, the shroud of Turin is a cloth that is 14 feet 3 inches long by 3 feet 7 inches wide.
		And on that cloth is a very faint image of the front and back of a naked man who's been both scourged and crucified in the same manner as Jesus.
		And as you mentioned, you have it on some of the pictures on your website.
		We just have about 10 there.
		And if somebody, if my website, which is shroudofjesus.com, shroudofjesus.com, that people can follow along if they have the opportunity.
		If not, we'll try to describe things as best we can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Just one last question.
		14 feet 3 inches by 3 feet 7 inches.
		All right.
		One last question.
		If they were able to identify the fact that it was blood, was it, in fact, human blood?
		And if, were they actually able to type the blood or not?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		A researcher by the name of Vino Bellona in Italy has typed the blood.
		He states that it is type AB blood.
		AB?
		Yes.
		And so that's where we are with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		type AV blood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then, one other question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This may be out of your field, but if you can get...
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you if I don't know.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		That's for sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you can get blood and you can actually go so far as to type the blood to AB, then would there be recoverable DNA?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Well, there was a group out of Texas that got some blood from the shroud.
		Unfortunately, they got it in a way that was not formal through other means.
		And so it isn't recognized by the church, the Catholic Church that actually owns the shroud at this point in time.
		And they state that they did a DNA study on there stating that this was a male.
		Of course, you can just tell that by just looking at the shroud itself.
		That doesn't give us really new information.
		People complain about that particular study because of how they got the blood, and some other people feel that, well, there could be a lot of contaminants on that clot, which is true.
		So DNA may not be the best way of approaching this problem.
		Plus, the fact to know exactly who that person is, well, we'd have to have a sample of Jesus' blood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The only reason I even bring this up is I read a lot of science fiction, and I read a book that you may have read that indicated that, why, if you could get the DNA of Jesus, aside from the wild cloning stuff going on right now,
		you might be able to determine whether the DNA of Jesus was human DNA all the way, or whether a man who worked miracles might have had some subtle, tiny difference in his DNA that allowed what he did to occur.
		It's just a fascinating question, and I guess they don't have that kind of quality DNA to do that.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		You're probably right.
		Maybe they wouldn't have.
		You know, there's a lot of degradation.
		I understand there's a lot of degradation of that blood that probably they don't have that kind of quality, but I can't be sure about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but it is blood, and it is A-B-negative blood.
		All right, fine.
		So now we come to the Shroud.
		The first photograph is a generic kind of photograph, I guess, of the material of the Shroud.
		Is that what we're looking at?
		On a website?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Okay, on a website here.
unidentified		Yes.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		What we're well that, okay, that first one that's on your website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is woven.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's like a woman.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yes, what you're seeing there is something that is really unique, and that is sort of a...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, go right ahead.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		What's happening there is that's actually at 64 times magnification right over the nose.
		We're really deep into the cloth, right over an image area.
		And I think probably one of the most fascinating things before we get there is really just to talk about, and those images are sort of not in the order that probably would best be to approach this.
		We're probably on my website, if people can get to it, shroudofjesus.com, or actually you have the two pictures there a little further down, and that's the positive and negative picture of the man of the shroud.
		Let's say the faith of the man of the shroud.
		Do you see those?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, now I'm on your website right now.
		So I made it.
		Others can make it.
		Where should I go?
		I'm on the page.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Let's go to question one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Question one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do we know the image is not a painting?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'm there and I'm waiting for something to come up.
		So I may have spoken too soon.
		Everybody's no doubt following along with me and we may be murdering your site right now.
		Wait a minute.
		Something's coming.
		Yeah, how do we know the image is not a painting?
		The shroud image has the quality of a photographic negative.
		Boy, is it going to take a long time for all of this to come up.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Dr. On your website you have it there too.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		You've got these two pictures, a positive and negative face.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'm going back to my website because apparently yours has slowed way down.
		Okay, so just tell me where to go on my site.
		Photo number.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Alright, your site would be negative face.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		That would be the negative face would be photo number 84.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		84.
		Okay, let's see.
		Sorry about the weight.
		Here it is.
		Okay, I'm there.
		I'm looking at it.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, back in, let's go back to 1898 when the first photograph of the shroud was taken.
		And what people saw was simply that particular face that you're looking at right now, a black and white of that, a black and white picture of that face.
		It's the only thing that anybody saw for centuries.
		And that particular face, something had happened in 1898.
		The first photograph was taken.
		It was taken by a man called Secundapia.
		He didn't go there with his little camera, but he went there with a, in those days, a very large camera with a very large negative plate.
		And he took his picture of the shroud, of what you're looking at, not just the face, but the entire shroud.
		And then he went back to his dark room.
		And when he did that, he was developing his negative plate.
		And all of a sudden, as he was developing his negative plate, he saw what looks like a positive image of a man.
		And that would be figure 85.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
		You see, now, this is just my side comment.
		That looks like the classical Jesus that we see depicted in churches, on paintings, on walls.
		And it's what we think Jesus looked like, essentially, isn't it?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		It is, and that's what a lot of work...
		We have sort of a history of this cloth that brings us back into Constantinople.
		And we find there the beginning of iconography in pictures of Jesus.
		And there's a tremendous congruence of the pictures of Jesus to this shroud.
		And it is believed by those who have done the studies that they had this shroud available to them and they were copying it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that would make sense.
		I mean, usually these things start somewhere, and this would be an obvious place, especially with the way it looks.
		So this is a positive rendition of the negative.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And Pia, at the time when he took that and saw this incredible positive image on a negative plate, he asked himself, how could there be a positive image on a negative plate?
		He didn't know why.
		And then he realized that what indeed was on the original shroud was a negative.
		At least had negative qualities.
		And so the question was, how could a negative image get onto an ancient cloth when photography was only invented in the 19th century?
		And because of this discovery, people began to study the shroud.
		And actually, there was a wave of interest around the turn of the century, 1902 or so, when this was all discovered.
		And scientists began to look into this.
		And man like Barbet in the 30s and 40s, who also started as a skeptic, as I have, came to study the shroud and start looking at it from a medical point of view, which is the way that I look at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, doctor, a real quick question, layman question, sorry about these, but just so I understand, whether it's carbon dating, which argues with what you believe or what you believe, it doesn't make any difference at all, does it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if this was all, no matter what date you settle in on as the one you like, it predates photography, right?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		Way, way, absolutely.
		If you want to say it's a 14th century artifact, it's predated by 500 years.
		If it's the Shroud of Jesus, it's predated by 2,000 years.
		All right, so no, whatever date you'd like to pick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No argument on all that then.
		All right, Doctor, hold on.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		That's a good place to break.
		Boy, you've got to see this.
		You look at the negative, and then you look at the positive, photo number 85 on the website, on our website, and you will recognize this as every photograph you've ever seen of Jesus.
		I'm Art Bell.
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		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have an internationally recognized expert on the Shroud of Turin here, Dr. Gilbert R. Lavoy.
		And we've got photographic evidence that you might want to follow along with on my website.
		You might try to make it to his website.
		You might make it.
		It's slowing up a little right now as thousands of you hit it.
		So good luck.
		There's a lot more information on his website than there is on mine right now.
		We just got these 10 photographs so that you might follow along just in case what's happening right now began to happen and his website began to slow down a little bit.
		My my, there aren't a lot of you out there.
		A question about the negative to the positive on the Shroud of Turin in a moment.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back now to Dr. Lavoy.
		Doctor, I'm afraid I'm going to ask some stupid layman-like questions, but going back to 84, the negative of the shroud, here's what I'm trying to understand.
		I think everybody knows if you have a negative as a photographer, you can create a positive.
		And that's what was done here?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what is the surprise?
		You seem to suggest that how could there be a negative and a positive?
		I didn't quite understand that.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, what you have is if you have a negative, okay?
		Right.
		That concept of a negative really didn't come into existence until photography came, you know, was invented.
		You're correct.
		So the fact that you have a negative on an ancient cloth, I mean, that's a very fascinating phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Because who would create a negative before even understanding what their negative image would be?
unidentified		Oh, they couldn't.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		They could result in a positive.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Oh, right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They couldn't have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there's no question about that.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		So what you have is a negative on this shroud.
		And when you take a picture, instead of another negative, you go to the opposite.
		When you look at negatives, you're seeing all the light areas are actually shadows.
		And on the positive, you see them as shadows.
unidentified		So it just reverses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's like a mirror.
unidentified		Right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		The lights and shades and so forth all reverse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And so that's the second photograph that we're calling the positive.
		All right, got you.
		Got you.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		It ends up on a negative plate simply because of the phenomena that you started with the negative.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, got you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so here we are at the positive.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		That's a very good question because a lot of people have trouble understanding that.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Glad you brought it up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, I guess.
		All right.
		All right, so here we are.
		We're at the positive, and it's quite a clear face.
		It's a very clear face.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		What's interesting from a medical point of view, just looking at that face while we're right there, you see there's a number of what look like blood flows in the hair and on the face.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And also, if we had a picture of the back of the head, you'd see a number of blood flows that are just at the back of the head.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're referring to the white, the white areas.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Those white areas actually are negative blood marks.
		And on the actual original cloth, where you go back to the negative, they are the dark blood areas.
		In other words, the blood areas on the negative picture, the original, are positive.
		And when you get to the positive picture on the negative plate, the blood is negative.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then there is a long horizontal, almost looks like a scratch line or surely not blood in that case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is that?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		By the beard down below?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, uh-huh.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		That's a fold, and that's just a fold in the cloth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A fold in the cloth, all right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so it just came out that way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's all.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's fine.
		Just wanted to know.
		It looks white in the positive, as does the blood.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		But that's just a fold that conscious shadow of the fold.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
		All right, so I see the blood.
		No question about it.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And so, Barbé, when I first remember reading his book and naturally other people looking at that, is that these blood flows would probably indicate numerous puncture wounds and come up with the possibility that this person had a cap of thorns on his head as opposed to a crown of thorns, a cap of thorns on his head.
		You can't, you know, just by looking at these, you can't tell it was a cap of thorns, but you know there are numerous puncture wounds at the top of the head.
		But the interesting thing here is you come down the face.
		In medicine we like to say a thing symmetrical or asymmetrical, are they the same on both sides or not, on the positive face that you have in front of you?
		If you look underneath the left eye, you see it's very smooth, but underneath the right eye, you see there's a swelling there.
		What we call in medicine a contusion.
		Can you see it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can see it clearly, yes.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		As if someone had hit this man with either a fist or a stick.
		It's just remarkable.
		You don't see that in paintings.
		I mean, these are details here that are just remarkable.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		The argument about how old this shroud is.
		Okay.
		I know that there's been carbon dating, which would seem to argue with the time period that it ought to be in when Jesus was crucified.
		So when does carbon dating say this shroud is from, and why is it wrong?
unidentified		Okay.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		The carbon dating occurred in 1988.
		And that is, I have been studying the cloth about 10 years when that came out.
		Being a physician, I deal with data all the time.
		And we're trained to look at data.
		And so we're also trained to question data if it comes back and it doesn't seem to fit the circumstances.
		Well, anyway, when the 1988 data came back on the carbon dating, I accepted that data.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did it say?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		It said that the cloth was a 14th century cloth.
		Cloth is, in other words, made in the 14th century simply because in carbon dating, that's when the plant would have been picked from the ground.
		And I feel it was a 14th century cloth.
		I accepted that date, and it was sort of like two truths sort of colliding, and I had a buzz in my head, and I said, something's going on here.
		Anyway, I said, well, I accepted that date, and I actually went out and made presentations and whatever, stating that the shroud was actually a 14th century artifact.
		And then I would show my pictures and the work that I had done.
		And it was very interesting because my audiences would say they'd end up doubting all the carbon dating.
		And I said, well, I must be doing something right.
		So I decided to, being here in Boston, I went to MIT and started studying the scientific literature with regard to carbon dating.
		Sure.
		And I came to find the following, a fascinating thing.
		When we do studies in medicine, we do protocols, scientific protocols, doing cancer studies, research, and so forth.
		And we follow our protocols to be sure something works or doesn't work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		From the point of view of care and therapy.
		Anyway, the scientific protocol that the carbon daters used, they stated that they should take six samples from the shroud and send it to seven labs to get the best results.
		Now, and of course the reason for that, throughout the carbon dating literature and all the literature when you do sampling and everyone who does this kind of work, either in chemistry, physics, or whatever, biology, epidemiology, we know that you need to have a number of samples to be sure that the samples that you have are representative of the material you're testing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And right in the carbon dating literature, you see that.
		Of course, they demand that.
		That's why they asked for six samples.
		Well, through no fault of theirs, they only received one sample.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One sample.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		One sample, and that sample was cut into three pieces.
		So right away, you start with the fatal flaw of the study.
		One sample is very thin ice to be on if you're going to make any kind of decisions on anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		So it turned out that as time went on, in 1996, a piece of the sample that they used for carbon dating was checked chemically to the rest of the cloth, to the non-image areas of the cloth.
		And the chemistry of that sample they used for carbon dating was found to be different than the rest of the shroud cloth.
		Therefore, the investigator came to the conclusion, and rightfully so, that the piece that they used for carbon dating was not representative of the rest of the cloth.
		And because of that, not being representative, you really have to have samples that are representative of the whole in order to make a good study.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's no question, is there, that the original single sample taken and then divided for testing was in fact from the shroud.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was in fact from the shroud, right?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		It was in fact from an area of the shroud that was near a repair area or at a repair area.
		It was at a...
		It was at a...
		Well, they took it from that corner.
		That was the designated area they were supposed to take.
		So there they were near a repair area.
		They were near a burn mark.
		They were near a watermark.
		And if you were going to pick this cloth up, that would be the exact corner that you would have used to pick it up for 2,000 years.
		So there's a lot of problems with that.
		And so therefore, really the carbon dating, because of the fact that the chemistry is different, is really of no value, unfortunately.
		This is in the scientific literature.
		I mean, this is not.
		And in my book, Resurrected, if anybody's interested in these references, they're all there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Is there any scientific evidence to suggest that it is as old as you represent it to be?
		That is, to be, of course, the time when Jesus was crucified.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		From the point of view of carbon dating, I think we have to say the carbon dating is really not a valid study, so we just have to put that aside.
		I wish it had been a valid study that this whole thing wouldn't have occurred.
		But from looking at the cloth, from an archaeological point of view, there are many scourge marks over the body.
		These are, and one would, they're all over the body.
		One can see them on my website.
		And actually, there isn't a good picture of them on your website right now.
		But they're dumbbell in shape.
		In other words, they're a Roman phlegm, a first century Roman phlegrum, was made of leather straps.
		And they had at the ends balls that were little balls of leather or bone.
		And they would form these type of dumbbell-shaped marks over the body.
		And there's about 120 of these all over the body.
		So from an archaeological point of view, that's suggestive of a first century event.
		That's all I can say.
		Also, it's very interesting from the point of view of place.
		I met a doctor, Max Fry, when I was interned in 1978.
		He's a criminologist from Switzerland who had done, placed also sticky tapes on the shroud and found pollen spores that were not only from France and Italy, from flowers from France and Italy, but from Anatolia and from the areas that would be around the Dead Sea.
		So that brings us to the, let's say, the Jerusalem area, generically.
		And so we have a place.
		This shroud has an itinerary, and at one time it was around the Dead Sea, which is fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		The big question that I have, and I guess that a lot of people have, is, and you're able to answer it, and that is, this obviously is an image of a man.
		I think a man who has been bleeding, as you have suggested.
		How do we know, I said to you, how do we know this is Jesus?
		And that's the big question.
		How do we know this is Jesus?
		How do we know this is of a man crucified at all?
		How can we possibly know that?
		And you have answers for that, don't you?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
		I think that one of the first things is for your listeners to understand is a little bit more about the blood marks and the image itself, these two different events.
		And I think the first thing is that the blood marks are definitely, from a forensic medical point of view, that of a crucified man.
		In other words, in studying this, this man had died in the position of crucifixion, had then been taken down from that position, laid on one end of this cloth, and then the other end was draped over and sufficiently tucked around to result in the blood marks that we actually see here on the cloth.
		We have some pictures, for example, on your website now that if people can't get to mine or it's too slow, picture 56.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And that's a wrist wound.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		There's two hands that are crossed, and you see there's a wound there with a blood flow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see it.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And actually, Barbet did this work originally.
		And what it turned out is that when he studied that, he realized, first of all, that the wound wasn't in the middle of the hand like we'd see in all types of crucifixes and whatever, that the wound was actually at the wrist.
		And he did some studies, took a dabbers, put nails through the palms of the hands, and found that the weight of the body would just tear through the flesh.
		However, when he placed the nail on the wrist, he found that the ligaments and bony area would actually hold up the body.
		So anatomically, this mark was correct, found in the wrist.
		The other thing there is if you can see that blood flow as it goes along, you can see that the arm had to be 60 degrees from the vertical, in other words, in the crucified position, for blood to flow down and just follow gravity.
		So the position of the arm when this man died was in the position of crucifixion by just sort of studying that blood mark and that blood flow.
		And finally, what was very interesting here, fascinating me, is that he was a surgeon that worked in the 30s and 40s.
		There were situations where he had to amputate an arm.
		And each time he did this, he would place a nail through the wrist of this hand, an arm that has still muscles and nerves still active.
		And each time he did that, he noted that the thumb would go inside the palm of the hand.
		And therefore, the back of the hand, if you looked at your back of the hand with the thumb inside the palm, you see four fingers and no thumbs.
		And that's what you see there on the shroud in that picture, four fingers and no thumbs.
		Right.
		So the question is, how could a, let's say, a 14th century artist have anticipated the scrutiny of a 20th century surgeon?
		And sort of, it's a very interesting phenomenon.
unidentified		Couldn't have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could not have.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		No, he couldn't.
		No.
		This is a real event.
		And we can even go a little further than going to my study.
		If you go to picture 62 that you have on your website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm right there.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And you see you're at the arms, okay?
		Yes.
		And you see, but you see to the left there that there's this off-image, blood mark.
		You see it just goes right off the elbow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		In pools, like a little circle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I see it.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		I didn't know for about three years.
		I started looking at that, and for about three years I tried to figure out what that was.
		In fact, I asked all the experts and I read the books, and no one knew what that was.
		So I couldn't figure out what it was and how it got there.
		And one day I said, if I can only figure that out, I had a full-sized copy of the shroud in my home.
		Somebody had let me borrow.
		And I placed it over myself one day, and I discovered what that was.
		And in my book, of course, and also you can see on the website, that what I did is I did a transparency of those blood marks and arm, and I placed it over a volunteer.
		People that are looking at my website can see.
		And then they could see that when that cloth drapes around, it drapes not only in the front of the body, but drapes around the side of the arm and touches the back of the upper arm.
		Right.
		And there, and that is where that blood flow was.
		It was in the back of the arm.
		And then we go to the very next photo, which would be 65.
		Right there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm there, I'm there.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And you can see, I hope, that the blood, what happened was that the blood...
		Well, you're right.
		It dripped from the wrist wound down the arm, around the elbow, pooled, and then dripped off the body.
		Which, you know, we all experience that when we wash our hands.
		I'm sure you feel that way, Art too.
		I ask audiences, they all raise their hands.
		When you wash your hands and you hold them up looking for a towel or asking somebody for a towel, you feel that water drip.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or if you want to experiment with this, just go get your hands all wet and hold it up in the manner depicted in photo 65 and you'll see exactly what happens.
		In fact, I'm going to try that.
		We're at a break, Doctor, so hold it right there.
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		75505 Explanation to the value that you gain from the era of the cast.
		Thank you.
		She doesn't give you time to watch you as she walks up your heart and you follow your bath with a witch direction.
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		The year of the castle, Arch Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell, formbought Kingdom of Nine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For those of you who have not caught up with us, the way to get to the photographs that we're talking about is as follows.
		Go to my website, www.artbell.com.
		Go to tonight's guest information.
		Click on Program and then Tonight's Guest Info.
		And you will see there several choices.
		The Good Doctor's website is one of them.
		It's running a little slow right now because a lot of you are hitting it, obviously.
		And we've got photographs up there for you to see as well, some of them, about 10 of them, the 10 important ones for this discussion.
		So that's how to get there.
		A lot of people asking about that.
		My guest is an internationally recognized expert on the Shroud of Turin, Dr. Gilbert Lavoy.
		We'll get back to him in a moment.
unidentified		Stay right where you are.
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		Back now to Dr. Lavoy.
		And you know, Doctor, I went into the bathroom, cupped a bunch of water in my hand, put my hand up at the angle in photo 65, and it flowed exactly as depicted there.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's a universal event.
		It follows gravity.
		It's amazing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, this is going to leap ahead, but I get these computer questions during the course of the program.
		And I think you've established, in fact, it was a crucifixion, though we may do more of that.
		The question from Daniel in Wisconsin is, Art, crucifixion was a common form of punishment during that time period.
		There is no evidence stating that this is Jesus.
		This could easily be the shroud of a thief, rapist, or other criminal.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		I think that that's a great observation, and that's the truth.
		If you're just dealing with the blood marks that are on here, that is indeed what you could say.
		Because even though I have to say this, that it's remarkable that the blood marks, and we don't have plan to go into that, but it's not even in my website.
		It's in my book, Resurrected.
		It gets into all these details.
		That, you know, it's just remarkable how every single description that we read about of Jesus' crucifixion, you find on this cloth.
		Even the blood and the water.
		It's just amazing.
		It's just the details, it's just incredible.
		But you could say, you know, with all the thousands of people crucified, possibly somebody also had a crown of thorns or a cap of thorns, or somebody else also had a wound to the side.
		And you could create that argument, and I say, yeah, that's true.
		That's very possible.
		So it could be any man from the point of view of the blood marks, as long as we recognize that definitely there was a crucified man.
		Science brings us to that point.
		And believe me, I presented this to many physicians.
		I was just invited by another physician to a large physician group in Omaha, Nebraska.
		I'm going to this weekend.
		And I stand in front of physicians and an audience, thousands of people presenting this.
		And there's no question.
		Nobody ever asks me whether or not there's a crucified man when they see the forensics that I have to offer.
		I think it's established, yes.
		There's no question about it.
		Now, the question is, who is the man?
		And that individual is absolutely correct.
		It could be any man.
		Except now we've got to go to the image.
		And we just could start with just a couple of things about the image.
		Realizing the blood marks are one event, and the blood actually soaks through to the back of the cloth.
		And some of my pictures in the website, and of course in my book, gives you an idea what that means.
		But anyway, we'll just go right to the image itself.
		And we have to understand that a little bit.
		First of all, we have to establish what this image is.
		And the best way to do that is to now go to that first slide there that you look on your website, that linen magnification.
		That's number 40.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Up at the top, right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Now, and other people can look at it on the website, my website, shroudofjesus.com.
		Anyway, it turns out that if you look at this, you go right down deep into the cloth.
		If you look over a blood area, that is not a blood area we're looking at, we're looking over a 64 times magnification over the image area on the nose.
		But if you were to look at over a blood area, which I have on my website, you would see that there is a sort of brownish-reddish material that's intertwined among the fibers and so forth of the cloth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And there's debris there, in other words, and that has been proven to be blood.
		Now we're looking over an image area, and you see no debris at all.
		Debris.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I see some shadowing, and I wouldn't know what that is in the upper left-hand side.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		You're just seeing some shadowing at that level, but you're not seeing actual debris.
		And what's happening is that, you know, what you're seeing is those are threads, large threads, and each one of those threads you can see is made up of tiny fibers.
		Can you see the fibers there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir, I sure can.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And each one of those fibers, to give you sort of an idea of how big they are, each one is less than half the diameter of the hairs on your head.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Very, very tiny.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Less than half the diameter, way less than half the diameter of the hairs on your head.
		And it is the yellowing of these individual fibers that are responsible for the image.
		Now, if you take a pin and start pushing those fibers around, you would find that right underneath the fibers that are yellowed, you'd find immediately they're white.
		Right, gotcha.
		So the image only goes down into the cloth one fiber deep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And then if you follow that fiber underneath the next cross-thread, you'd find it would go immediately from yellow to white.
		That means that no liquid dye or stain could have caused that.
		Otherwise, we would have had the material going deeper down into the cloth and wicking along the cloth.
		And what I mean by wicking, an oil lamp, it wicks up to the flame.
		Sure, the wicking of the yellow underneath the next cross.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I absolutely understand what you're saying.
		And again, this goes to the authenticity of it as opposed to the creation of it.
		I think you've established that.
		I don't see how there can be any argument.
		I think you've scientifically established that.
		You're absolutely correct.
		It would be much deeper if this were somebody's handiwork.
unidentified		Sure.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		So it's a very, that phenomenon, first it's an it's a negative image.
		We have this phenomena that no one, people on television and some people have claimed that they've been able to reproduce this kind of thing, but at the microscopic level and the photographic and so forth, and the anatomy and the blood marks, no one has been able to recreate this image.
		It's unique in the world, okay?
		And if they had, believe me, I'd be there to find out what it is, because it just, I have done that, and each time I do, it's just a major disappointment in the sense that it's not, they can't do it.
		So it hasn't been done.
		Now we come to the major point, a major phenomena, try to understand why.
		So first of all, if it's created by a painter, it's not the shroud of Jesus, obviously.
		So it's not a painter here, but I have something that brings us, science tells us again that this phenomena is something that it's an amazing phenomenon that we cannot understand.
		At least we don't know how to do it today.
		No one has technically been able to do it today.
		So that's annoying.
		You need that as a prerequisite if you're going to start talking about this being the Shroud of Jesus.
		So science brings us to this point.
		The Shroud is not a painting.
		This is really the blood of a crucified man.
		And basically, science can go one more step here.
		And if you go to my other picture, let's see here.
		The okay, it's 72.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		72.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm there.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Okay, now what that is, I'll just have to explain what that is.
		Actually, what we should do is go first to the positive face, 85.
		Let's go to that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm there.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And there, you see on the face that there's hair, there's in the hair there are blood marks.
		Can you see them?
		Yes.
		And so what I did is I, because the same thing as the study of the blood off the left elbow, I did a tracing of these blood marks.
		And in my website, and also in my book, naturally, you can see these pictures.
		I did a tracing of these blood marks.
		And then I took, I did a cutout of that tracing, then I placed that over a face of a man.
		I draped it over a face of a man, and then I filled in the cutouts with blood.
		Not with blood, I'm sorry, with paint.
		It's getting a little late for me here.
		With paint.
		And then when I took off the cloth, underneath I saw that the blood did not originate from the hair, but literally originated from the temples and cheeks of the man under the cloth.
		This is very difficult for people that do not have the pictures in front of them, and it's a difficult concept.
		But what it is, is that the blood marks originated, in other words, they were on the temples and cheeks of the man under the cloth.
		The cloth was draped around the face, and the moist blood clots that were on the face soaked into the cloth.
		Do you picture that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Now, then, but the image, so that's one event in time.
		Now, but what we have here is we find that the blood is in the hair.
		It's almost as if the cloth, and we go back to that other picture I did, 72.
		Now we're going back to 72.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		With the negative face and the blood marks that are the cutout there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see it, yes.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And that, and you see that it's as if the cloth was then, it was originally on the face, and then it was straightened out, and then in between the blood marks that were originally on the temples and cheeks, a snapshot, you might say, or a negative image of the face came in between those blood marks that were originally on the temples and cheeks, if you get what I mean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do, yes.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		That shows us that this is an incredible enigma.
		We don't understand this.
		In other words, the blood marks are a very simple thing to understand.
		They're simply a contact process, cloth coming in contact with blood marks.
unidentified		Right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		But the image is not a contact process.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Because if it were, the sides of the face would be out where the hair is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So is there any natural means of reproducing what happened with the shroud, this image that has appeared on the shroud?
		Is there any natural means?
		Could you take somebody out, lay them down short of the blood, because nobody's going to allow that, and cover them, and in any period of time, would you get what we've got?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ever.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		No.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		People have tried for 100 years.
		100 years.
		Since 1898, better than 100 years, people have tried to reproduce this using, doing the kinds of things you're talking about, and no one has ever been able to do it.
		It's been tried over and over and over again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have they tried it with a woven material that is identical to the woven material shown up here?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yes, linen, yes, absolutely.
		And no one's been able to do it.
		And neither do you find, when you investigate and look at shrouds of true shrouds, true cloth that covered bodies, Egyptian stuff, you don't find anything like this, just smudges and things.
		There's nothing like this in the world.
		This is a unique image.
		I think this is a little complex.
		I think people really have to read my book, Resurrected.
		They can start with my website to really get to the So basically to summarize it, the blood marks are simply a contact process, but the image is not a contact process.
		If they look at my study on the blood off the left elbow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Put simply, Doctor, the image itself is miraculous.
		In other words, absolutely.
		You're the one that said that.
		I am the one that said that.
		Well, I'm listening to what you're saying, and there's no other answer for it.
		There's no way to duplicate it.
		Therefore, it must be miraculous.
		Magic is something we don't understand, so it's magic.
unidentified		It's miraculous.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Well, what it is, is a, you know, scientifically, it's a phenomenon that, it's a wonder that remains unexplained.
		That's what it is.
		It's a wonder that remains unexplained.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And is that the strongest?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		You can use the word miracle if you'd like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I did.
		Is it the strongest thing, then, that says that this is Jesus, the miraculous nature of the image itself, says it must be Jesus?
		Is that the strongest?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		So, we have to, that's, that's, we got, we got one more step to go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		So this, at least we're starting with the basics here.
unidentified		Sure.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And the way the people can see for themselves, rather than, it's nice to say those things, but what I've tried to do is to visualize this.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		So, people can look at it and say, gee, they can decide for themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		As opposed to just saying, well, I believe it's this or I believe it's that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm big on letting people decide for themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		They, you know.
		So, therefore, the next step is to really, it was an event.
		I'll have to, as I talked to you when I first, when I first talked to you on the phone, the truth of it is that I never believed that I would ever find anything on this clock that would convince me that this was definitely, you know, like, for example, that this image appeared at the moment of the resurrection.
		I was adamant that nothing would ever convince me of that.
		And I have to say that, and we'll go into that, is that I have to say that I feel that I was wrong about that, and I'd like to explain why.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to hear why.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Well, when I was doing that work on the blood on the face, I took my pictures of my volunteer, and, of course, the blood marks indicate this man is lying down.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		So I had the, and everybody who's ever studied the shroud has ever, we've all believed that the man of the shroud is a man laid out in burial, that the image is also of a man laid out in burial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		So I took pictures of my volunteer in the lying position.
		When I got the negatives back, I naturally thought the negative of my volunteer would look somewhat like the negative of the shroud image.
		After all, I was, you know, we were led to believe that the shroud image is a negative, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		So the negative of my volunteer should look like the negative of the shroud.
		However, if we go to the picture on your website and also on my website, we could look at that.
		but it's the negative of the face 84 for a second picture 84.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		34.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And you just take a look at the shroud, and you see that there's light areas around the eyes, under the nose, and at the lips.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		If we go now to the negative of my volunteer, 73.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is a negative of your volunteer?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Let's go to 73.
		Got it.
		Negative lying down.
		And you see that that whole face is gray and bland.
		Yes.
		So when I saw that, I said, what's going on here?
		have to remember i was the major skeptic you know well what's wrong this whole thing is a fake or whatever what's going on this is supposed to be a negative it doesn't look like a negative at all when i take a real person you know yes so then i i started to look through the rest of my negatives and to my amazement i came across another negative of my same volunteer and that's let's go to figure 74.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		74.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		That's the same volunteer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Obviously so, yes.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		But you see that here there's light areas around the eyes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see that, yes.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Under the nose and at the lips, just like we see on the shroud.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And it turned out, and that was sort of an awesome moment for me because that image does have some of the appearance of the qualities of what we see on the shroud, light areas around the eyes, under the nose and at the lips.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold it right there.
		We'll get to the punchline.
		There really is a punchline to this, folks.
		You're not going to believe this.
		Coming up right after the break, Dr. Gilbert Lavoie is here, an internationally recognized expert on the shroud of Turin.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is Dr. Gilbert Lavoyd, an internationally recognized expert on the Shroud of Turin.
		And I know that a lot of this is very technical.
		I hope as many as possible are able to follow along on the website because it is important to see the photographs.
		We'll do another segment with Dr. Lavoy in a moment.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, once again, Dr. Lavoy, and we're looking on the website at photo number 73, which is of a volunteer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And that's the volunteer lying down.
		It says 73, but there's no light areas around the face.
		It doesn't look at all like the Shroud negative.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		But then we went to negative of the 74, the same volunteer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And here we have light areas by the eyes, the nose.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And lips.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Like we do on the shroud face.
		But the fascinating thing about this was that this was the same volunteer, but he wasn't lying down.
		He was actually in the upright position with light coming from above.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, as though somebody was, as in a crucifixion.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, as in an upright man.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		We have to think in terms of this man is no longer in the crucified position, but as an upright man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, that's right, the shroud was after that.
unidentified		So.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, so, oh, da-da.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Light goes on.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		So you have, what you have is you have, and I, what are light areas around the eyes and the nose and the lips are actually what appear to be shadows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, I'm with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As in a resurrected man, as in a resurrected man.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		As in a man who's lifted up.
		Right.
		A man who's lifted up.
		Now, the fascinating thing is that these shadows were not only, what looked like shadows, I should say, because I'm not saying this was made by, this is an actual photograph, because the image is much more complex than that.
		And I'm not saying regular light made this or anything.
		We don't know how this image was made.
		But basically, what look like shadows are not only on the face, but I did studies, and you can see them in my book, that you see this not only at the face, but you see them at the pectoral muscles, the shadows and at the hands and so forth.
		So it's consistent throughout the body that it looks like a man who is upright.
		And if you want to, I've asked painters, expert painters, looking at this, and if a painter wanted to paint this, this is exactly what they do.
		They put these shadows in to make this person look upright, right?
		It's consistent with an upright man from the point of view of shadows.
		Then I did another study.
		I said, is there anything else on this cloth that tells us that this man is upright?
		And I studied his hair.
		And you look at the hair, and if you probably go to the positive image 85 of the face, and there you see the hair falls down to the shoulders, just like a person is upright.
		I hope you can see that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can clearly see it, sure.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And if you had the picture of the back of the head, you would have the very same thing.
		The hair just falls right down to the shoulders.
		And I have pictures on my website, of course, in my book, that show this.
		Hair just falls right down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that would be vertical.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Following gravity, a vertical person who's vertical, exactly.
		And it turns out that I also have a picture of a young lady lying down, and you can see that the hair falls backward.
		It doesn't fall down, you know, it follows gravity.
		So this is definitely obvious from the point of view of just looking at it.
		Everyone knows what hair falls down following gravity.
		Now, the feet, you don't have a picture of that, but the feet, actually, you see the soles of the feet, they're actually bloody imprints of the feet, so this man is not standing.
		So what you get is the impression of a man who is upright and suspended in midair.
		That's the impression you get.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Upright and suspended in mid-air.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		As if suspended in mid-air, right.
		And it's very interesting.
		Many years ago when I first started showing these pictures and I was with a group of physicians and before I even understood this phenomenon, years before I understood it, and after I gave a lecture to a group of physicians and one of the physicians sort of stayed back as if he really wanted to ask this question alone and an orthopedic surgeon.
		And after the lecture he came to me and he said, you know, he says, when I look at these pictures, he says, it seems to me that this man is suspended in midair.
		He's upright and suspended in midair.
		The other orthopedic surgeon saw that immediately when he looked at those pictures years before I figured it out because I was so prejudiced to believe this man was lying down.
		But he wasn't.
		He just saw it that night and there it was and that's what he saw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So years later you remembered what he said.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		I said that night.
		I said, well, maybe you're right.
		You know, I just didn't really think very much of it.
		But that indeed, he was right that night and that indeed is what we have.
		And again, those pictures are there for people to look at and decide for themselves.
		I mean, that's the way I see it.
		And if you see it, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have no way that this image could have been transferred to the shroud.
		We've not been able to duplicate it.
		And we now know that it was a vertical picture as though suspended in mid-air.
		Not in the crucified position, right?
		Right.
		But suspended in mid-air, as though resurrected.
		And so the moment this image, you might imagine the moment the image was transferred to the shroud was the Moment of resurrection.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Is that what you're saying here?
		This is where we have to leave science.
		Okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you've brought me a long way.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Science brings us to this point, okay?
		And we cannot.
		So, what we have is exactly what you just said: a crucified, blood of a crucified man.
		Now we have an image of an upright man who's suspended in midair.
		I said, what are I going to do to this?
		And I was not a person that read the Bible.
		But I can tell you that this discovery caused me to go and try to look for answers.
		And I really didn't have any other place to go but to the Bible.
		So I started reading, and I went from one gospel to another, and I finally reached the Gospel of John.
		And it states in the Gospel, in chapter 12, verse 32, Jesus is talking.
		He's talking and he states, and I, and I, when I am lifted up above the earth, when I'm lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
		When I saw lifted up above the earth, I said, that's the very same imagery that I'm seeing on the shroud, lifted up above the earth.
		And so I then went to the commentaries and I read, went to one of the best commentaries on the Gospel of John by Raymond Brown, respected by all faiths, actually, this commentary, this gentleman, Raymond Brown.
		And at the very beginning of his book, and throughout different sections of the book, there he talks about, he does an extensive work in the Gospel of John.
		He talks about this sentence, and I, when I am lifted up above the earth, will draw all people to myself.
		He states, lifted up, when Jesus talks about that, that is the culminating event of his life, the reason why he came.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which is the resurrection.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And that lifted up means lifted up in crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension.
		And so there we had the imagery of being lifted up from the words of Jesus, the culminating events of his life, and there what we have on the shroud is the very same imagery.
		And it is because of this, and that this is the reason I believe this is indeed the shroud of Jesus.
		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, when you have presented this final clinching evidence, and I realize how you had to work up to it, but when you present this evidence to others, to colleagues, to other researchers with regard to the shroud, how's it greeted?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Well, it depends on, when I present this to people who are interested or just looking at the shroud for the first time or just have an interest in the shroud, it's greeted very well.
		I present this to physicians and it's greeted very well.
		There is a group of people that have studied the shroud that are very interested in understanding the mechanics of how this image got onto the cloth.
		Some of those guys are a little bit upset with my fact that I'm saying this man is upright.
		And they use studies like VP8 image analysis and so forth stating that I'm saying this is a photograph.
		And indeed, I'm not saying that it has photographic-like qualities.
		And some people say, in other words, it's very difficult once I have this man lifted up to figure out a mechanical way, let's say the body-to-cloth relationship that allows one to figure out how this image got onto the cloth, you know, as it covered a body.
		And the fact is that a small group of those people disagree with me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can't we imagine or mustn't we at least imagine that if it's what we believe it is, that the energy of that moment, of that instant, was transferred to the cloth in the manner you've described vertically in mid-air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so it was, and I use the word miraculous, but for lack of any better word, that instant described is the only way this could have happened.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Well, to be very frank with you, I guess what it comes down to, as you're saying this, I guess the best way to describe how this happened, my mother has the best answer for this, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, she says, how did Jesus turn water to wine?
		In other words, what you're saying is a miracle.
		We can't understand this phenomena, and the fascinating thing is that it's right in front of us.
		And we can look at it scientifically, and we can make observations, and then it's just something that has no answer.
		And the word miracle certainly can be applied to this.
		And I don't use that word, but it certainly can be.
		I think I understand what you mean when you use that word.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is never going to be enough evidence, I suppose, for those who believe it's a hoax, is there?
		Or is there?
		Or do you think that what you have presented here is sufficiently conclusive, perhaps not to silence them, but at least to quiet them a bit?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		I think what I have here, if I sit in a room with you or any of those people, and we're just covering the very top of what I have to offer here, just skimming the top of it,
		that if we sat in a room and discussed this, I think if I had time to talk to everybody who disagreed with this and they saw these images and so forth, they'd come to understand that this was indeed an incredible enigma that's worthy of at least Looking at and contemplating,
		and as opposed to just thinking in terms of it as being a hoax, I think there's definitely a tremendous amount of information that points to this being the shroud of Jesus.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that sure is the clincher.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The one last conclusive piece of evidence that this would have occurred in mid-air, as somebody was suspended in mid-air, not crucified, not lying down, but suspended in mid-air, people are going to have to give that some pretty serious thought.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you have to really give it a lot of serious thought, and you've got to look at the images, make a decision for yourself.
		is what I'm saying here, because a lot of people don't have these pictures in front of them right now.
		Really, I just recommend...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do have a book, and obviously the images are in the book, I trust, right?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		I have at least 70 pictures in the book, about 40 pictures on the website.
		Some of the pictures on the website are not in the book.
		And of course, many pictures in the book, many more that are on the website.
		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's available where, Doctor?
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly it's available through my website.
		They can call, there's a telephone number there.
		They can call from 8 to 5 the company Thomas Moore.
		It's available in bookstores.
		If it's not, they can order it.
		It's certainly available on Amazon.com.
		Okay.
		Through my website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't have to know what the number is, do you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because not everybody.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		I'll give you the telephone number.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please, please.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Telephone number for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, Susan in Seattle writes, why shouldn't I believe this is just another Christian trying to make money off Jesus?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's a physician and internist who probably has all the money he needs anyway.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		I don't make any money on this.
		I spend money on this.
		I'm sure you do.
		You don't make money on these kinds of books.
		And I do this because I tripped over this.
		And it's been a fascinating detective story that I just have to share with people because it is so fascinating.
		Okay, that toll-free number is 1-800-264-0368.
		And that's 264-0368.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		1-800-264-0368.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		All right.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And that can be just dialed during daytime hours, 8 to 5.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you don't have operators standing by.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		No, no, there's no operators.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Daytime phone number, folks.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, 90.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		And then, of course, amazon.com through my website, through your website, and just going there directly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we will keep the photographs that I've got on our website at least for a few days because I know a lot of people will listen to this by computer the next day and replays of it and they're going to want to go and look at the photographs.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, you can keep them on as long as you'd like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your being here.
		It's a difficult, under the best of circumstances, if you've got the photographs in front of you, it's a difficult story to tell, technically.
		But the conclusion you come to is certainly something new for an awful lot of people, including me, to think about.
		And I appreciate your being here.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		It's a pleasure to be with you.
dr gilbert lavoi ▲ ● ▼		Take care, Doctor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's Dr. Gilbert Lavoie.
		And it is something I'm going to have to think about.
		There have been many, many arguments about the Shroud of Turin.
		All kinds of arguments about it, haven't there?
		The carbon dating, when it came from.
		I think conclusively he proves that it came from the time when we know the first century, all right?
		So I think he's established that.
		I think he's established beyond any shadow of a doubt that this was a man crucified.
		And I think if you look carefully at the evidence, that he has established also that this was a shroud that came from a man that was in mid-air.
		That's the amazing one.
		That's the one you've got to think a little bit about or a lot about as you consider what you just heard tonight.
		And again, we will keep the photographs on my website because I know a lot of you are going to want to review them.
		And we'll also continue to allow you to go to the link.
		As a matter of fact, we've got, you'll find under Dr. Gilbert Lavoy's name, photos, exhibits of the Shroud.
		Those are the photos we have on, so we could be sure that you'd get to see something tonight.
		And then the link to book Resurrected, Tangible Evidence that Jesus Rose from the Dead.
		Then the website itself, the Shroud of Jesus, and of course the NBCI search on the Shroud of Turin.
		If you just want to do a lot of reading on the Shroud of Turin and begin to come to your own conclusions, you may want to back up a little bit, do a lot of your own research, and then move forward into Dr. Lavoie's research and come to your own conclusions.
		That's what I try to do on this program, is to sort of lay things out for you, very controversial things, and this is certainly one of those, and let you come to your own conclusion.
		At the very least, I think the research of this man who's internationally recognized as an expert on the Shad of Turin has to be taken into consideration no matter how you feel about whether Jesus was real or concocted by somebody and all the words in the Bible that were supposedly his words were concocted.
		You have to roll over this kind of evidence to get to any sort of conclusion at all.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
		When we come back, we'll go to Open Lines.
		We'll talk about this and your impressions of Dr. For 66 years.
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		Music We teams are made of the earth.
		When my youth is free, I travel the world and the seven seas.
		Everybody is looking for something.
		Some of them want to use you.
		Some of them want to get used by you.
		Some of them want to abuse you.
		Some of them want to be of you.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Arpell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know that was a very hard technical interview to do, but it was a very profound interview as well, profoundly important.
		And so when we end the show at 3 o'clock Pacific time, we're going to replay the two hours of that interview.
		Those of you who know about the Shroud will have followed it and will understand the profound conclusion reached at the end of the interview.
		I certainly do.
		Others may have to take their time and follow along, so we'll give you that opportunity if you get a repeat.
		And the same goes for tomorrow night.
		The concluding hours of the show will be played.
		So if you get the prefeeds, and yes, we do prefeeds now, you'll be able to go through it again.
		Very, very, very interesting.
		I'm Art Bell.
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unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David in Sacramento, fast blasts me.
		Art, what do you believe?
		Is it real?
		What about Ramona?
		Well, I don't know about Ramona.
		I'll speak for myself.
unidentified		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's always been my problem.
		It may always be my problem.
		Please do not attempt to call, email, or write me and convert me.
		I'm incontrovertible.
		Sorry about that.
		I just am intrigued with what the good doctor just said, Dr. Lavoie.
		Surely, you know, he delineated very clearly where he left science at the very end and where he made the leap.
		But the science does take us to an interesting point, that the individual on the shroud, we have no idea how the image got on the shroud.
		There's no way to duplicate that.
		It does go back to the time that it had to have been.
		Moreover, the final crushing point that this was a shroud, an image done at the moment that a body was vertically in the air, suspended from the ground.
unidentified		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what I believe.
		I wish I did.
		I'm happy for all of you who have faith and you're able to simply believe without scientific evidence.
		I wish I was there.
		I would love to be there, but I'm not there, and I'm not sure I'll ever be there.
		And that's as honest an answer as I can give you.
		I hope it's true.
unidentified		How about that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hope it's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I'm on the air.
unidentified		Great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you are.
unidentified		Well, I was listening to you off the delay, so I didn't get your last few comments.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, you were listening to me on the delay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What I said was at the very end, all I can do is I'll say I hope it's true.
unidentified		That's what I'm saying.
		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
		I heard that.
		I heard that.
		And that's kind of fascinating.
		My name is Michael.
		I'm calling from Norfolk, Virginia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I think probably the most significant thing about this program and about what Gilbert has brought forth is not what it will produce in the Christian or religious world, but what it will produce in the scientific world.
		Yes.
		What you've done on this program, and I've been listening to it very carefully now since about two weeks before you came back on the program, and what you've done is you've created in this time some real milestones for science that I think need to be followed through on.
		And tonight's program is one of them.
		Just before you came back, a couple of weeks before, Mike had on a guest by the name of Dean Raden, who made a very, very significant statement.
		He's a scientist who's looking into the paranormal.
		He's gotten some funding from Bill Gates' partner, Paul Allen.
		And it was a very significant program.
		But the statement that he made, as it applies to tonight's program, that I thought is very, very significant, is that there's a great difference between getting people's attention and getting their intention.
		And he applied this to scientists.
		He said that when he shows the evidence that he has shown to scientists that there is reason to believe the paranormal really has sound basis, he gets their attention, but it's very different from getting their intention.
		And I think that as an agnostic, anyone who is an agnostic, listening to tonight's program, I think the thing that would give us hesitance about jumping into something like this is not wanting to become what Christianity is in our minds, not wanting to be like another Christian, so to speak.
		And so the significant question that we have to ask is you mean fear of faith?
		Well, no, it's just that what we see in religion, we don't want to become a part of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, fear of faith.
unidentified		Well, maybe you could call it fear of faith.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
unidentified		But what if, what if this man, Jesus, was resurrected in the manner described, what technology was behind that?
		What kind of system produced that?
		And why was it done in the way in which it was done?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, technology we don't have today, obviously.
unidentified		And how can we interact with that civilization?
		What are they trying to tell us that obviously has not gotten through to the Christian world?
		I think that's the big question.
		And people like Dean Raden need to be brought back on this program so we can start getting into those questions.
		We know there's something phenomenal out here.
		And every reasonable person who listened to tonight's program would say, yeah, this was an agnostic doctor, a scientist, looking at this when he came to all this.
		And I could hear the open-mindedness in your mind as well.
		But I think you're like many people in the scientific community who have a willingness to believe.
		But there's that other notion, am I going to become another one of these?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I think I get the message.
		Fear of faith is, again, what I would say.
		Maybe.
		Maybe.
		You know, all of your comments are interesting, and you may be absolutely right.
		It may have something to do with a fear of faith, because once you made the jump, once you made the jump, there wouldn't be any turning back, would there?
		In other words, suddenly you believe it all.
		Once you believe part of it, I guess you believe it all.
		You can't Believe in all of this part way, can you?
		That there was a man who walked on earth, the Son of God, who was crucified and then resurrected?
		If you believe that, then everything else has to be embraced as well.
		And I'm sure that caller's right.
		I'm sure there's some fear about that because it would change you incontrovertibly.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hi, Art.
		This is Jiminy from Oakland, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
unidentified		I wanted to change the subject a little bit, although I thought that was pretty awesome.
		I got onto his website and read the whole thing.
		I'm going to tell my brother, who's an avid Christian, to check out the website.
		Anyway, someone called a few days ago and alluded to Ed Dames concentrating on the Jonathan Reed thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And you never mentioned on the air whether he thumbed down or thumbed up it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, pretty much thumbed down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, we're going to have Ed Dames on again at the end of the week, and we'll ask him that again.
unidentified		Well, I have a theory about it that makes Ed Dames right and makes Jonathan Reed right.
		Okay.
		Well, when you go on Jonathan's website, he mentions that, in fact, I was disappointed.
		He mentions a lot of things that he didn't mention on the air, like he's met Freddie again, he's met creatures like him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's no way to cover everything.
unidentified		I know, I know.
		But anyway, he said that not only are people on the planet after him and after his friends, but there are off-planet forces trying to keep this quiet too.
		Now, if they wanted to keep it quiet on all levels, they could wrap the whole incident in a thought form of a hoax.
		You know, as Ed Dames would call it, the target.
		Wrap the target in thought form, layers of thought forms that they project onto the whole thing because they figure there's not only going to be physical investigators, they're going to be psychic investigators.
		So Ed Dames comes along and he tunes into it and he bumps into these thought forms that are wrapped around the incident that say hoax and everything like that.
		So he can be right and Jonathan can be right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we shall see in a kind of an interesting way.
		Well, I'm just going to get myself lost.
		If I backtrack into the interview we just did, I'm going to get lost, so I'm going to avoid it.
		Listen, thank you very much for the call and take care.
		Maybe I'll say a word or two.
		If we're talking about the possibility of extraterrestrial life, go back to the Brookings report.
		What did the Brookings report really tell us?
		It's commissioned by the government.
		It told us that people would basically go bonkers if extraterrestrial life was suddenly present or the truth of their presence was suddenly revealed in some official way.
		Everybody would go bonkers.
		Well, I think they would.
		And I think most Christians would.
		And now I'll back up into the program a little bit.
		Dr. Lavoie came to an incredible conclusion, and he did so scientifically, that this man had to be in mid-air, that this image had to have been transferred at that moment in mid-air.
		Okay, well, if you embrace that, and then you embrace Christianity in general, and you embrace the whole thing, you buy the whole package, which is what we were talking about a little while ago with that other caller, and then you contemplate the possibility of there being extraterrestrial life that,
		for example, might claim to have created us, us, then everything that you have embraced and believe, believed, blows up in your face, doesn't it?
		Everything.
		If you embrace everything as written in the Bible, if you embrace Jesus, the man being on the planet, the true Son of God, crucified, then resurrected in a way we could not possibly explain today.
		If you buy all of that and then you consider the possibility that others would come along from elsewhere and claim they created us, that they are the authors of our genetic makeup, the Anunnaki, Sitchins, Anunaki, whatever it is that you want to contemplate, it collides immediately with this deep Christian belief and a lot of other beliefs, by the way, also around the planet.
		So I have always believed and believed now that the bookings report is accurate and that pretty much people would go bonkers.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
		I'm calling from Santa Rosa, California.
		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And one of the things that I've come to think over time is that when you look at the creationists, you look at Christianity, and you have to make the leap of faith, I think that one of the things that becomes very obvious or something that has to be considered is that any God that can create the universe,
		that can create people, can also create a world that has artifacts of dinosaurs and ancient civilizations and all the things that science looks at to say that things are different than what those with faith have.
		And that's the ultimate test of faith, if you follow what I'm saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I don't.
unidentified		Let's say that dinosaurs never actually existed.
unidentified		Let's say that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do we want to say that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because there's hard scientific, physical evidence that, in fact, they did.
unidentified		A God that created the universe and has that kind of power could create an earth that has artifacts and dinosaurs and fossils to test our faith.
unidentified		why would it...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why would any God want to test our faith?
		Why wouldn't it be sufficient that people would have faith?
		They would have made that leap.
		They believe without the necessity of evidence.
		Why would a God, in effect, torture people by providing additional evidence that would argue against the whole premise?
		I mean, I just don't understand.
		That's not a godlike thing to do.
unidentified		I think that what the issue is, is you would need to have the ultimate faith in belief, and I'm going back to the creationists, the creationists who talk about Aren't we tested in our faith daily?
		I mean, God does not come down from on high every day and say, I am God.
		I am the miracle worker.
		Here are my miracles.
		Everything that we know is based on faith.
		And those who don't have the faith say the faith that we have or those that profess to have faith do that to fill in a gap, to make existence mean something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's okay.
		It's hard enough as it is that X number of things must be accepted on faith.
		Ah, what a word, on faith.
		Why would a creator throw in 50 million more things to be considered and to challenge that faith?
unidentified		Because then you have an absolute of saying, I believe without questioning that God exists as opposed to having to continually go through this argument of science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then he did too damn good a job for me because I cannot bring myself to make that leap of faith.
unidentified		How's that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		did much too good a job for me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're just, I see exactly what you're saying, but I just don't see why a God, or at least a God that I understand, Well, probably I don't.
unidentified		You're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But why would he throw up tests like that?
		I've got to say it anyway and ask it.
		Why would he make it more difficult to believe?
		Why not make it easier to believe, not more difficult?
		Why challenge a leap of faith that's already been made?
		Why throw more roadblocks in the way?
		That doesn't seem godlike.
		Wildcardline, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're welcome.
unidentified		Turn it off.
		My name is Matt.
		I'm calling from Canada?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Matt.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		I wanted to discuss something related to Nostradamus with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Are you familiar fairly well with the prophecies of Nostradamus?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ooh, yeah.
unidentified		A little bit?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		A little wee bit.
		Yes.
		Okay, well, in Nostradamus, he predicts that there will be three Antichrists.
		Okay?
		Two of them will obviously come.
		The first one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean, obviously?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know Hitler will be named no doubt as one, right?
unidentified		Well, hindsight being 2020, Napoleon is considered the first.
unidentified		The third one, considered by most people who study in Nostradamus, think that the third one's name is an anagram, Mabus, spelt M-A-B-U-S.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Now, when he talked about Hitler, he talked about a man named Hister who would be born near the Rhine carrying the crooked cross, referring to the swastika.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And he made a lot of symbolism around that.
		With this, Mabus, as an anagram, do you have a pen and paper in front of you?
		Yes, yes.
		Okay.
		Now, if you take these letters, take the M, turn it upside down, and turn it into a W, the B, the U, and the S, and the A are all still there.
		Now, if you take the W, the B, the U, the S, and switch the H to an, or an A to an H, you have W Bush.
		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		W Bush.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, but you've got to do switching of letters to get there.
unidentified		Yes, well, as it is with Hitler.
		He called him Hister.
		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've always had a problem with that kind of thing.
unidentified		You always had a problem with it, eh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, I always have.
unidentified		Well, that's too bad.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it is.
		It's a rotten shame, actually.
		But yes, I've always had that's kind of like other things that you accept on faith alone.
		How about this?
		Let me run this one by you.
		Are you ready?
		In 1555, Nostradamus wrote the following.
		Come the millennium, month 12, in the home of the greatest power, the village idiot will come forth to be acclaimed the leader.
		It finally happened.
		I don't want to have to switch the H to get there.
		W, I think you're all right.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Music I've got to climb by like a wind to be free again.
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		Clean out that garage and make some money.
		The flea market Saturday morning from 7 to 8 on News Talk 1230 WMFR.
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		And if the night wasn't quite as bold as the night should be, he rode an old grey mare called Bets.
		There she was a damsel in distress just to see if he could be rusty on the ride to her raid.
		Deep is hanging at his side with a rusty blade.
		Wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	And to call Art on the Toll-Free International Line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and add them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with IFL from the Kingdom of Nye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed.
		And to continue in the same discussion we're having right now is going to cause me cranial difficulties.
		I'm really hurting right there in the very center.
		So, if we turn to something else, that'd be all right with me.
		How about those shadow people, huh?
		How about that airplane on that island?
		We could talk about that.
		A lot of other things, too.
		Because this makes my head hurt.
unidentified		I can't hear how they still got married next when they came in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This line is great.
unidentified		Every suit of armor ever made has a kink, chainmail pants with a missing link.
		The End Hi, I'm Marriette Hartley.
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		I discovered a powerful at-home program called the See Clearly Method based on 50 years of combined research with amazing results.
		In just minutes a day, I'm seeing better.
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		And best of all, it can help almost anyone.
		The American Vision Institute guarantees that if you don't eliminate or reduce your need for glasses or contacts in 30 days, they'll refund your money.
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		Call now.
		Someone who understands and cares is waiting to take your call.
		Call 1-800-MU2020.
		That's easy.
		1-800-MU2020.
		Call 1-800-MU2020.
		Commercials are more believable when real customers give a testimonial.
		So on the line with me is Karen Ellis, a GEICO Auto Insurance customer.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I would think the program we just did would be very important for Christians.
		Or maybe not.
		Maybe it would be more important for non-Christians, people who are constantly demanding impossible scientific proof.
		Because he did get to a place I've never heard anybody go before.
		So maybe it's important for everybody.
		Everybody.
		First time caller line, you're on here.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Oh, my God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Arts.
unidentified		This is JD from Maine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, JD.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Surprised you got in, huh?
unidentified		Yes, I actually am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's somebody, you know, it's like the lottery.
unidentified		It very much is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somebody has to get in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So here you are.
unidentified		So here I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you in Maine?
unidentified		Where am I in Maine?
		I'm from the great city of Portland, Maine.
		Okay.
		Listening to you on W. W. W is safe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they're pretty much everything used to save.
unidentified		Yeah, everything is safe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has to be W. Pretty much.
unidentified		Except for KDKA.
		Yeah, anyways, I called in.
		It's amazing that I actually got through on the shot of Turan, although your guest is gone, so my question is a little bit null and void.
		I was going to ask him about the, you talked about the bloodstains around the face area, and I was going to ask him how he accounts for the face cloth placed on Jesus' face after the crucifixion by Mary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He would have to answer that, and I couldn't even begin to, so.
unidentified		And you can't.
		Anyways, I've been trying to get through on something else, too.
		You seem to have a lot of people call in every once in a while.
		You also have the Antichrist line, but you seem to have a lot of people talk about future and Bible prophecy and stuff like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		You never seem to have an amillennialist come on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An amillennialist?
unidentified		An amillennialist, or amills, is what I like to call him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that must be you, then.
unidentified		That's what I am, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what does that mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are you?
unidentified		There's two things that an amillennialist does.
unidentified		The first thing is they take a look at Bible prophecy and they say, okay, this thing is written.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First thing you've got to do is learn how to say that.
		See, it doesn't.
		A millennialist.
		It's like trying to say unique New York three times fast.
		Anyway, so what are your thoughts?
unidentified		The two things that we do, the first thing we do is we accept that this stuff was written 2,000 to 2,500 years ago, depending on which religion and what have you that you take all this prophecy from.
		So we have no idea what these people saw.
		So the second thing that we do is we say, okay, this might not be literal stuff.
		This might be along the same lines as taking a book like Brave New World and sending that 2,000 years into the future, which if they would look at their timeline, they would say, well, this is 2,000 years after Ford is the year written here in the book.
		He must have been writing about our time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		So that's the first thing.
		The second thing that we do is we take little marks that are written in prophecy that we can find in other places on the Bible.
		And the classic one that I like to use is you talk about the mark of the beast in Revelations.
		And the term mark is actually used in the Gospels, in the book of Luke, if I remember right, when Jesus Christ is asked by the Pharisees, should we pay taxes to Caesar?
		He asks for a coin and he says, whose mark is on the coin?
		So, and the exact same Greek word used for mark in that reference is used for mark in the reference in Revelation when it talks about the mark, or more precisely, the image of the beast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I figure it this way.
		Probably 2,000, 2,500 years from now, somebody will stumble across Spider-Man, and they will make their conclusions about our society based on that.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		There you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, yes.
unidentified		Hey, you know, you were talking earlier about, you know, the entire concept.
		Okay, my name's Brian.
		I'm a truck driver.
		I'm headed south on I-35, somewhere near the Oklahoma, Texas border.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On a digital cell phone.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
		Yeah, best I can do.
		Bear with me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		But the concept of a God, an all-powerful being with the ability to create the universe and everything within, and then placing within that humans, you know, a species there with the ultimate purpose of worshiping him.
		And then, if they fail to do so, to torture them in an all-fiery, burning hell.
		Yeah.
		Something I'm not really comfortable.
		I want to impart of.
		Same here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm with you.
		I'm with you.
		And the other caller said, and, you know, and we'll put down, we'll put all these dinosaurs in and we'll throw in all kinds of artifacts and we'll really make it hard to believe in me.
		And then we'll see what those lowly humans do.
		We'll see if they can get over these obstacles.
		It's not my kind of God.
unidentified		Yeah, it seems kind of petty for a being that has the ability to create the entire universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that's right.
		I agree.
		I'm with you all the way, sir.
unidentified		I mean, you know, I mean, there's a lot of good things about religion.
unidentified		I can't find fault with any of the Ten Commandments, but I just have a hard time believing it as it's put forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Truck on.
unidentified		Well, I thank you.
unidentified		I appreciate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Take care.
		You see the Rockies?
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Thanks for taking my call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very well.
unidentified		Great show tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Bloomington, Indiana.
unidentified		My name's Steve.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Steve.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		I just want to say that, you know, it really doesn't take any more greater leap of faith to believe in Jesus Christ or God, you know, with capital G as it does in little green men from other worlds, you know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've never said I believe in little green men from other worlds.
		I've never met one that you've never touched on.
		No, no, no, no, no.
		Don't misinterpret my investigation, whether it be like with tonight's show or investigations into little green men.
		Don't misinterpret that to mean faith or belief in, because I don't have it.
		I'll tell you straight out.
		Any other approach you want to take?
unidentified		Well, I just wanted to make a comment about the dinosaurs and things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		Go ahead.
unidentified		Most Bible scholars today and a lot of Christians believe that the world is a lot older than 6,000 years, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there's a lot of them that believe 6,000 years is it.
unidentified		Yeah, well, you know, the Bible says that the God, you know...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what they do?
		What's that?
		They bring forth fuzzy photographs to try and prove that a man and dinosaur walked along together happily, hand in hand, or a claw in hand.
unidentified		Well, there's something really important here, though, I would want to get out, and that is in the first chapter of Genesis, in the first verse, you know, it says that the world was without form.
		Well, the Bible also says that God cannot create imperfection.
		So there's speculation here that there was more than one destruction, you know, other than the flood.
		They can't create anything.
		Well, I mean, you know, we were influenced by other things, though.
		I mean, or we can be influenced by other things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe that was up until the bite out of the apple, huh?
unidentified		Right.
		But I mean, you know, it's just different beliefs.
		Everybody has their own beliefs, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's true.
unidentified		But, you know, as far as the Bible itself is concerned, I mean, you know, from a Christian viewpoint, you know, there was two destructions in, you know, the Old Testament.
unidentified		You know, there was the flood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		But there was also this destruction, you know, because the world was without form.
		And God, you know, the Bible also says that God cannot create imperfection.
		I mean, the Bible states that.
		I mean, I can't give you the verse and chapter here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the only perfect moment was the one without form.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
unidentified		I appreciate this call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		This is hurting my head.
		Stop.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		All right, Jeff, Colorado Springs.
		How you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm all right, Jeff.
unidentified		All righty.
unidentified		Hey, I'll switch gears on you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		Bless you.
		Bless you, son.
		Bless you.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		Hey, I just wanted to ask, you made a brief comment the other night regarding some irrefutable type of evidence coming forward regarding the existence of Bigfoot somewhere in...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, I did.
		There are two simultaneous stories.
		One is out of Britain right now, where they tested the hare, and it's no known species.
		The other, though, I don't know about irrefutable, but it's an ongoing, important contact in the middle part of the country between many individuals, not just one, and Bigfoot.
		And I'm not allowed to go beyond that until I get the okay from the person who's going to bring these witnesses on the air.
		Yes, I said that.
unidentified		All right.
		Well, buddy, I'll tell you what.
		I have actually been playing phone tag a little bit with you, and I can get with you some other time.
		But I do have Bigfoot on videotape at close range.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I think I know who you are.
unidentified		Yep, it happened in Colorado, and I'll definitely get with you on that later.
		But it is absolutely, without question, the best image of the face to date.
		And it's simply standing behind a tree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, is your first name Jeff?
		Yes.
		Yeah.
		I've got all of your information here, Jeff, including your contact number and all the rest of it.
unidentified		Yes, and I apologize.
		I know I've missed your call a couple times, but we can...
		What I have, Art, is I had designated a percentage chance for the existence of the animal, but to my friends in the field of research, I was at the point where I would justify it by saying, oh, what the heck?
		Maybe I can go up there and catch some hoaxers doing this.
		And, you know, I was a little bit kind of a closet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jeff, I understand.
unidentified		Investigator.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		What evidence do you have?
		You have a photograph that shows exactly what.
unidentified		Okay, I was at 11,200 feet within the Colorado Rockies.
		It was 11.30 at night.
		I had a Sony night shot camera with an external infrared light source.
		And what I would do, I was following up on a very, very credible report from two professionals who were extreme hiking.
		And so I believed that absolutely that they saw something.
		So what I would do is I would slowly pan tree lines with the camera.
		And during my two hours of panning, which started at 11.30 at night, I literally got the animal's right shoulder, his entire face, the top of his sagittal crest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much detail is in the face?
unidentified		Well, it is night shot, so naturally it's grainy, but Art, I was 20 feet away.
unidentified		I do have some of the best photo experts who specialize in the area of video forensics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what have they said?
unidentified		And they have the tape now, but what I have now is pretty impressive.
		But leaving nothing to chance, the first thing I did is I sent it to NASA.
		NASA?
		This is going to be a whole can of worms here, but I actually...
		Well, I got a disclaimer from them and I sent the tape to them because I happened to have done a project with NASA eight years ago.
		Still had a contact there.
		I got the tape in the door under the auspices of I have something on a tape that I cannot explain.
		Art, what they did is they analyzed the tape and after three days they got back to me saying, and I quote, Jeff, what you have on the tape is for sure a bipedal subject.
		However, without thermal imaging, there would be no way for us to determine absolutely whether or not the top of that, as you call, this is them talking, sagittal crest, is prosthesis or if it's actual skin tissue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		Look, this sounds so interesting.
		I presume you've got not just videotape, but probably stills, don't you?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, why don't you send me the stills?
		Why don't we begin there?
		Yet, Aunt, you have a computer, right?
unidentified		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and then you have JPEGs, I presume?
unidentified		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why don't you send me the JPEGs and allow me to put them up so everybody can look?
unidentified		Okay, I'll tell you what, I'm at that number tomorrow during the day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		It would be, I'll tell you what, the photographs that are being analyzed will be downloaded onto a disk and sent to me, and I'm told that they're going to be a minimum of 300% better than what I actually have right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to wait for that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that what you're saying?
unidentified		I would rather give you the best process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, how long are we going to be waiting?
unidentified		Well, I can certainly send you a few now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do it.
		Okay.
		Art Bell at MindSpring.com.
unidentified		Okay, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'll look for them and I'll get them up on the website right away.
unidentified		Sounds great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, my friend.
		Thank you, and we'll be in touch on the phone.
		Yes, by all means, send me what you have now, and then send me the enhancements when you get those.
		Gee, I don't know if I would have sent photographs to NASA or not.
		Now with all the controversy about NASA and photos, yikes.
		But, okay, we'll get what he has that has not gone to NASA here shortly, and we'll get it up on the website for you.
unidentified		How about that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He said that he had been given a tip from some extreme hikers.
		And that brought to mind something that I just want to quickly cover.
		I don't know whether any of you out there watch Survivor.
		I do.
		My wife and I watch Survivor.
		Avid fans, actually.
		And now, Miss Barnett's actually older thing called Echo Challenge.
		Have you seen Echo Challenge?
		It's running now.
		Echo Challenge is Survivor times 10,000.
		To be an Echo Challenge, you have to pay.
		And then you have to travel to Borneo.
		And then you have to be willing to suffer unbelievably.
		I mean, I watched people pulling leeches out of their belly buttons and anywhere else you can think of.
		I watched people that have gone to the point of exhaustion and way beyond to a life-threatening state trying to go through this course.
		And these people do it voluntarily.
		I suppose there's, why do we climb the mountain?
		Well, because the mountain's there, right?
		Why do we put ourselves through torture?
		Well, because the torture's there and we want to test ourselves.
		But personally, after watching, what, three episodes now, three hours, I think these people have lost their minds.
		Lost their minds.
		I would never, in a million years, even if there was a million dollar prize at the end of the line, up at $5 million.
		No way would I do that.
		Anybody who's seen Echo Challenge can probably relate to what I'm saying.
		Or maybe not.
		Maybe you're out there saying, hey, I'd try it.
		Well, I wouldn't.
		Yesterday's episode had some guy who had a...
		It had to be a helicopter down.
		So I'm interested, you know, in what would cause a person to go through this, to set themselves up for this torture.
		Now, I understand there is a firm psychology somewhere behind it, but none that I can grasp.
		I suppose there are people who just want to suffer and want to test themselves to the absolute utter limit and beyond.
		So when I say these people went through misery, that doesn't even begin to describe what they went through.
		For almost no price.
		I mean, the likelihood of placing in the money is almost zero.
		The likelihood of finishing is not quite 50-50 or something like that.
		And the likelihood of getting hurt is very high indeed.
		Maybe even dying.
		And yet, they have an echo.
		Barnett sets it up.
		They have an echo challenge and they have hundreds of people who go down there to be part of this self-torture.
		If you haven't caught it, it's still running.
		My wife would have to tell me where.
		I forget where it's running, but on one of the cable channels.
		It's really worth checking out just to observe the human condition.
		And I think the people that are doing this have lost their minds.
		They're absolutely crazy.
		But it's still very entertaining to watch.
		Because, you know, you sit there and you're entertained going, those people got their blinking minds.
		I wouldn't do something like that.
		Why would they?
		Well, because they're crazy.
		But it's very entertaining.
		I'll give it that.

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