Dr. Gilbert Lavoi’s 22-year study of the Shroud of Turin reveals a first-century cloth with AB-negative blood and Roman-era scourge marks, yet carbon dating flaws—like a single chemically altered sample—cast doubt on its medieval classification. The image’s negative-like properties, vertical hair flow, and mid-air posture (noted by an orthopedic surgeon) defy replication, suggesting resurrection energy over natural processes. While skeptics dismiss it as exploitative or photographic, Lavoi insists the shroud’s inexplicable details demand reconsideration of its origins, leaving faith and science in tension. [Automatically generated summary]
On News Talk 1230 WMFR, you'll get more business news than any other radio station.
Each morning between 6 a.m. and 10 a.m., each day during the noon hour, and each afternoon from 3 p.m. to 5 p.m., you'll hear two business reports each hour.
At 24 past the hour, find out the latest information from ABC's Business Week report.
And then at 10 minutes before each hour, you get another update from the CBS MarketWatch.com reports.
In addition, you can find out the latest business news and track your stocks on our website at WMFR.com.
If you need business news, then you'll find it right here on News Talk 1230 WMFR and on WMFR.com.
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening and or good morning wherever you may be across this great land of ours.
From the island of Guam, way out there in the Pacific, across states of Naples, we're tightly a different day to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands.
South all the way into South America, north to the Pole, and worldwide on the internet, this is coast to coast a.m.
Well, I'd like to welcome WBBD in Wheeling, West Virginia, 1,400 on the dial, normally rocking and rolling at this hour, but, well, we'll be rocking and rolling just a different time.
unidentified
So, WBBD, Wheeling, West Virginia, glad to have you along.
The size of the solar flare that we had, had it hit Earth, had it been pointed at Earth directly, may have taken out all of our satellites, or the majority of our satellites, may have taken my show off the air, might have taken your HBO and cable and direct satellite off the air.
It was a mother.
Let's see.
Currently, we've just had an X-Class flare.
Whether or not it's from the same region, I don't know.
Let me read you.
Solar activity forecast, solar activity expected to be high.
Region 9393, that's the big mother.
Will continue to be a threat for major flares and put-out events during the next three days, although the probabilities will decrease as it rotates around the solar limb.
Region 9415 also clearly has shown major flare potential, is expected to be a source of M-class flares and probably additional isolated X-class flares.
The forecast says geomagnetic fields should increase to minor to major storm levels during the next 24 hours.
Listen to this.
The two recent CMEs, coronal mass ejections from region 93 and 93, are likely to have combined by now, and the size and possible partial earthward component of the second CME creates the expectation of some interaction at Earth.
That would be us.
The response is less certain than in the case of a full halo CME and probably less dramatic than the result in the case of a direct hit, head-on hit.
I'm reading what they're saying.
The forecast is for minor storm levels at the mid-latitudes with major storm levels at higher latitudes.
So you guys up north are going to have a nice show.
Minor storm conditions expected to persist throughout the second day.
This was really something.
This was the biggest one they think they've ever recorded.
Might have been an X-22, which would make it bigger than the X-20, which was gigantic back in 89, how well I remember that one.
And so Earth dodged a bullet.
There is no other way to put it.
We'll see.
By the way, I talked with Major Ed Dames about, oh, I don't know, 10 minutes before showtime.
He'll be here Friday.
And he said he's got some pretty grim news going to be putting on his Dr. Doom hat.
Well, he's never taken it off for me.
He's tried a couple times, but the news has always been bad.
And he says, this time, it's really bad.
He did not elucidate.
We'll see.
Well, the big story, I guess, is our airplane, huh?
They're not giving it back.
And I've been trying to, I've been watching the president and the way he's been I'm sure you saw that, right?
And I'm trying to figure out from the way he's reacting.
I'm sure that you're the same way, and we haven't learned how to read President Bush yet.
Exactly.
So I can't tell you what I read in his face when he's talking about it.
It is time for our servicemen and women to return home, he said.
There was a, you know, we got to meet with him and they're apparently in good shape.
Crew is in good shape.
Nobody knows about the pilot.
I keep waiting to hear about that.
And he says, you know, relationships between America and China will be damaged unless the American crews return quickly.
And we want our airplane back, too, by the way.
And then there were other warnings from the administration about, and they better not be tearing into it.
Anybody who has a windfall of an airplane coming right down into their territory can always Claim it was in their airspace, and they can always take it apart and look at it.
It's high-tech U.S. stuff, and the Chinese like high-tech U.S. stuff, so you know, they're pouring over it right now.
Probably taking out little pieces and parts.
I wouldn't want to be the person trying to fly that home, assuming we get it back.
Earthquake in Japan, central part of Japan, late Tuesday, injured six just hours after another quake.
Well, these quakes and sunspots and flares go together as far as I'm concerned.
Really, really getting to be rough on Wall Street.
And by the way, you may recall Sean David Morton made a prediction with regard to the stock market.
And it was date-specific.
Basically, Sean said if the NASDAQ were to go below 1700, we may be in for a very, very hard economic period.
Well, the NASDAQ closed at 1672.
John in Tampa, Florida says, how about an update from Sean?
You know, I kind of thought the same thing, so maybe we'll dial Sean up toward the bottom of the hour and ask him if this NASDAQ closing fits with his prediction.
And if so, what does it mean?
Well, one thing's for sure, the NASDAQ can't fall 2,000 more.
I watched the guys on MSNBC, and some of them are pretty funny.
I like the guy with the longer hair.
And he was sort of pulling it out today, and he was saying, you know, I'm really fed up with all this.
I can't watch the market anymore.
I'm going to go fishing.
I forget what he said.
I'm gone somewhere.
You could do the reporting.
But I've sort of had it.
I mean, he's so depressed.
He always was wanting to dig down and find, you know, the few companies, even on a bad day, that are doing really well and promote that because he's a positive kind of guy.
But he's like, he's had it.
He's going to go fishing.
He doesn't even want to report on it anymore.
Well, again, reporting on this, because here it comes again.
Two of three cloned calves under the care of university researchers have died in recent weeks causing another delay in the race to clone livestock for commercial use.
Researchers at Copper State University Chico believe the two calves died from an intestinal infection.
Such immune problems are common in cloned calves.
Well, you know, I don't know if I'm happy about science getting ready to clone animals that we might eat, for example.
I mean, what's the matter with the old process of...
We all know the old process.
What's the matter with that?
Why do we have to clone?
Maybe they'll, you know, it'll turn out that their immune systems are wrong and they're not good to eat, and now they're going to clone human beings.
And I just don't know about all of this.
I think we are rushing in where angels fear to tread.
I just don't think we ought to do it.
I don't think we ought to do it yet.
And then here, this story is back to, again, I get it today.
It's apparently a pretty big story for Yeti hunters and Yeti fanciers.
Bigfoot.
The headline is, Yeti's hair defies DNA analysis by Mark Henderson, science correspondent.
British scientists on the Trail of the Yeti have found some of the best evidence yet for the existence of the mythical Himalayan creature, a sample of hair that is now proven impossible to identify.
Genetic tests on the hair, which was gathered from a tree, have failed to match its DNA to that of any known animal.
All right, listen, we're going to take a break here.
I've got a little more, and then we'll have an open line.
Stay right where you are.
Are you afraid of losing more money in today's markets?
Well, I don't blame you.
I really don't blame you.
I mean, look, look at the Dow and the NASDAQ today.
Anyway, you don't have to be in fear.
There is a way to protect your investments, but you need to know where to look and what to buy.
Please listen very carefully.
The most important aspect of investing is diversification.
We all know that.
But what you may not know is at today's levels, gold has a 20% profit already built in.
In fact, I'm holding an article from Barron's magazine that says gold could hit $850 an ounce.
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Now, how are you doing around the middle?
How are you doing with the Battle of the Bulge?
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There's a fellow named Angelo Arvademiz, I believe.
Anyway, Angelo, when rolling blackouts hit the state of January, Angelo got rid of one of his two walk-in freezers February and March when state officials announced utility rate hikes for residents and businesses.
He replaced his air conditioner, ran it only a few hours a day.
Still, the Riverside County businessman knows that he faces a very long, hot summer in the desert after the California Public Utilities Commission announced a 42% electricity hike.
Well, right-oh.
He said, my bill has gone from get this, folks, $900 to $1,400 at a restaurant, right?
Even with all the conservation steps and it's not even summer.
This is what I wonder about, folks.
It really is.
He goes on, what am I going to do when it hits 100, 110, 120 degrees?
I have to run the air conditioner, he said.
I'm probably going to have to close for the summer.
It's a question that many residents and business owners are asking in this high desert community about 130 miles southeast of L.A., where summer swelter can easily top 120 degrees.
What are those people supposed to do?
Isn't it likely going to turn some of those towns into ghost towns?
I mean it, if you can't operate a business, if you can't afford to keep your house cool in the summertime, if it becomes so expensive, then you're going to pick up sticks and go somewhere else.
Pete, get me out of here, right?
And what are we going to end up with?
We're going to end up with ghost towns.
Speaking of ghosts, they're not exactly ghosts.
They're shadow people.
And this is driving me absolutely insane.
I have no idea what to do about this.
I now have over 3,500 emails.
And as you know, the minute I open up the lines, I'm going to start getting shadow people calls.
This is something, it's the proverbial can of worms, really big can, I'll tell you.
One fellow called up, talked about the shadow people that he could see in peripheral vision, corner of his eye kind of stuff.
We began a small discussion about it that began, it absolutely became a tidal wave of faxes and emails and phone calls.
And all of a sudden, everybody, it's like everybody who had been holding back decided they're not going to hold back anymore.
And they're out there saying, by God, you know, I've seen those things too.
A lot of them not in peripheral vision, but straight on.
And so I don't know what to do about this.
I'm still looking for an expert in shadow people.
I know that Brad Steiger, I am reminded by some of you, wrote a little bit about shadow people somewhere.
So I could ask Brad.
But this is so, is so overwhelming.
I don't know what to end.
And remote view the shadow people.
As a concept, remote view the shadow people.
Everybody's seeing them, everybody.
And that's an exaggeration, but when I get 3,500 emails on one subject like that, all of a sudden, you know that somebody lit the fuse out there somewhere.
It's an explosion that was getting ready to happen.
Gordon in Portland, Oregon writes, We are lucky to see the shadow people because they're out taking their pet rods for a walk.
Their pet rods.
Indeed.
Then maybe some of you can help me out with this.
Arn, I had a question about a past show.
I do not recall the exact date, but I think it was last month.
You were doing a show on time travel.
Had a guest who said that he was from the year 2004 or something like that around there.
You asked him what we could expect from the future.
I always do.
For some reason, I recall him saying that the China problems will worsen, and he said something about a plane crash.
I was wondering if you recalled the caller and what was said, and the answer is, no, I don't.
You know what?
I don't.
I don't recall the caller specifically.
We have a lot of predictions made here, some about China.
But if he said something about an airplane, I am interested.
So if any of the rest of you remember the specifics of that, whether it hits what has happened here, I'd like to know.
Hey, Art, remember the slip on your show that you detected after watching CNN?
Remember the night Mirror was going down and one of the Russians said, maybe I'll see you on Mir 2?
Well, guess what, folks?
The Russian government is considering building a successor to the recently abandoned Mir space station, although there is no money to do it now, according to a top cabinet official.
Deputy Prime Minister gave no details of the possible Mir 2, saying only that Russia's participation in the 16-nation international space station provides a technical base for building a new Russian station.
He said the U.S.-led international project would remain Russia's top priority.
Mir's demise in the South Pacific, after a record-setting 15 years in orbit, was bemoaned by many Russian politicians and cosmonauts as the end of Soviet-era space might.
So they're saying that they might build a Mir 2.
That'd be about $400 million, bottom line.
You know, discount price Mir 2, $400 million.
But they can't afford that.
They don't have the money.
And yet, you'll recall the cosmonaut as I caught immediately saying, well, maybe I'll see you on Mirror 2.
And I said, what?
What Mirror 2?
And this from England.
This tale apparently proves that crime does pay.
If you're fishing for elective surgery to go along with your stolen goods, get this, folks.
A 24-year-old supermarket shoplifter stuffed five lobsters in his pants and sprinted for the door.
But he never had a chance.
The violated crustaceans brought the thief to his knees in front of startled cashiers when they fastened their powerful claws about his delicate parts.
Doctors were able to remove the animals with pliers.
They say the thief will fully recover, except for one more detail.
It was a do-it-yourself asectomy.
This man's daring supermarket exploits make him one of the few Darwin Award winners to live and tell the tale.
The supermarket manager declined to press charges, saying why the culprit has already gone through enough pain to learn his lesson.
Five pissed-off lobsters in your pants.
an idea.
unidentified
Love is what a heart is never a day.
I'm so glad I'm in here.
He's gonna be over when I get healed.
Love is what a heart is never a day.
Love is what a heart is never a day.
He's gonna be over when I get healed.
Love is what a heart is never a day.
News and information.
There's only one station in the High Point area that actually specializes in providing news and information.
Newsstock 1230 WMFR has been in the business of keeping the High Point area informed for 66 years.
Larry Craven brings you 16 local newscasts each day.
We have ABC News at the top of the hour and ABC headlines at the bottom of the hour.
We have our SkyWatch meteorologist Elliott Abrams, Brian May, and Bob Larson with the latest weather.
We have Larry Craven and Judy Mendenhall with the Chamber of Commerce Show each Wednesday at 9 to keep you up to date on local business news.
We have ABC Business Week and CBSMarketWatch.com to keep you up to date with national business news.
We have the Dennis Elliott Show each afternoon from 3 until 5 with local topics, local guests, and your phone calls.
And we have the number one radio commentator in the country, Paul Harvey, with his news and comment and the rest of the story.
News and information on Newstalk 1230 WMFR and WMFR.com.
Got brown patches in your yard?
Your azaleas not blooming?
Want to grow bigger tomatoes this year?
Then you need the expertise of Pam and Wendell from Garden Talk.
Each Saturday morning from 8 until 9, you can get the advice and help you need on Garden Talk on Newstalk 1230WMFR.
Pam and Wendell will take your phone calls and help you to develop your very own green thong.
Garden Talk Saturday mornings from 8 until 9 on Newstalk 1230 WMFR.
Hello, this is Judy Meadinghall, inviting you to join Larry Craven and me on News Talk 1230 WMFR each Wednesday from 9 to 10 in the morning.
Ours is a new show featuring the High Point Chamber of Commerce.
Each week we bring in interesting guests and provide valuable information about chamber programs and activities.
We also highlight local business people who are our members.
Tune us in.
I think you'll like what you hear and you may even learn a few things.
Hello, I'm Certified Financial Planner Peter LaMaralia from the Financial Group.
Each Tuesday morning from 9 until 10 here on News Talk 1230 WMFR, I host Money Talk.
Our show is your opportunity to have your questions answered about strategies to reduce tax liabilities and how to provide a comfortable and secure retirement.
Don't deny yourself the information you need to make more out of your money.
Money Talk each Tuesday morning from 9 until 10 on News Talk 1230 WMFR is CDS News.
You live a nice home, drive a fine car, enjoy the good things of life.
So why squander away a third of your life sleeping on a painfully obsolete mattress?
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A Canadian study suggests that women who breastfeed.
Hi, I'm Lucinda Bassett, founder of the Midwest Center for Stress and Anxiety.
I suffered with anxiety and depression and panic attacks for over 20 years.
I was afraid of everything.
My thoughts, losing control and embarrassing myself, death and dying.
I was totally consumed with worry, but I didn't know that these symptoms were from anxiety and depression.
I believe I suffered with anxiety and depression all those years so that I could help other people do what I've done, recover completely.
Our program helps.
I've been told that he just found and believed the name of his latest friend.
He called and talked, and I heard him say that he had the longest one his man.
The brilliant green eyes anywhere.
And we'll play.
No one smiled, but he's a smile.
And we can walk.
He was gone, but still his words kept returning What else was there for me to do and cry?
Would you be a...
Wanna take a ride?
Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
And to reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Arthur on the Premier Radio Networks.
What is it about this song that just gets into my soul and stays there?
It's not like any other Presley song.
It's just different enough that it just, I don't know.
It's one of those things that keeps going around in your head.
We're going to check in with Sean David Morton in a moment because he made a prediction about the NASDAQ that has a lot of people pretty shaken, so we will ask him about that.
From John in Delta, Colorado, Art, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car.
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There is little doubt the weather continues to get worse.
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That crackles us into the world of prophecy for a few moments here.
Now, we had Sean David Morton on the show, and he made a specific prediction.
I've got a fax here from John in Tampa, actually email.
According to Sean David Morton, the bottom of the NASDAQ was supposed to be around 1780.
Sean said that if the NASDAQ were to go below 1700, we may be in for a very, very hard economic time.
Well, the NASDAQ closed at 1672.
How about an update from Sean?
John in Tampa also said, P.S. He calls it this Y-class sunflare has precursor event written all over it.
I'm not a fatalist.
I do try to be optimistic, but one thing I do not believe in is blind optimism.
I'll make the exact quote, and I'll actually read it verbatim out of the February 21st, 2001 issue 68 of the Delphi Associates newsletter, where I said, and we talked about this on the 2nd of March on your show too, that as I write today, which was actually February 19th of 2001, the NASDAQ was at 2,346, and the Dow Jones Industrial Average was at 10,715.
And then I said, listen closely, the NASDAQ will continue a downward trend in the next six weeks through late March to early April, and the bottom of this projected wave will be around April 5th through the 17th.
So we're off it by less than two days.
At this point, and April 5th through the 17th, 2001, and the barrier resistance line will be 1,789.69.
Now, interestingly enough, just before I continue with the quote, on the 22nd of March, the NASDAQ actually bounced down to 1792 and then skyrocketed back up again.
So I only missed it by about 2.31, then skyrocketed back up to about 200 or so.
So to continue the quote, at this point, one of two things will happen, and you would be foolish indeed not to pay attention to what I'm about to say.
If the NASDAQ continues down below 1700, which of course it did today, literally just two days before my projected low for this, which is the barrier resistance line for this wave, in other words, the floor, the cellar, the tank, the sewer, we are in major trouble and nothing anyone can do is going to save the massive bust in tech stocks.
This will be the beginning of the Silicon Valley Dust Bowl, the computer depression of the 21st century.
Hordes of jobless internet geeks and slick software salesmen will be roaming the streets, turning over coffee machines at Starbucks, pawning their Rolex with BMWs and razor scooters and ransacking comic book stores.
And I go on to say my own brother didn't listen to me.
Oh, gosh.
And you'll actually remember, too, that all the way back, I think, in 1998, where I talked about the October 2000 stock market climate.
Anyway, the whole point of this is that I had two scenarios of this.
The second scenario, which was less depressing and more optimistic and more likely, and I'll just continue the quote here, because once again, this is from the February 21st newsletter.
The NASDAQ hits the barrier line of 1789 in April.
First quarter warning, earnings are announced, which will not be as bad as expected, and it begins a gradual zigzagging sideways motion back upwards.
Also, new advances in genetics and biostocks, including new configurations for computers and revelations about new super broadband transmission speeds, will be announced.
As this year will be future shock whiplash all the way, these truly incredible new techniques will fuel the NASDAQ recovery, and it should hit the projected high for this year of 4,117.19 in late September of October.
The only problem is that the first scenario seems to be taking effect.
Right, and that's the first scenario which was below 1,700.
This is what I think is happening, and it's very interesting because the financial markets very much connect into your show and a lot of the things that you talk about in this program.
I mean, this is the physical reality of the technological advances that are about ready to occur in internet broadband speeds, nanotechnology, computer transmissions, and all of the stuff that seems to be,
we're right on the edge of downloading a huge amount of information from the black ops shadow world of places like the Department of Naval Intelligence, the National Reconnaissance Office, the NRO, and our little gray buddies out at Area 51.
A Massive amount of it, and there is usually about a 10-year lag.
And if you remember, you know, way back in the good old days in 1990, 1991, when we were talking about the DNA supercomputers and the computers out of Area 51 that they called the beast computers, sure, battle engagement area simulation and tracking, etc., etc.
This is what I think is happening with the market right now.
I think that what's going on is that we're seeing a carefully manipulated collapse of a series of these big company stocks directly into the sewer right before the release of the next echelon of super advanced high technology.
So all of the spooky stuff that comes out of Area 51 that's about to be downloaded into the public sector by companies like OmniGon, Seltera, Connection Technologies, all of these companies have become fronts for very, very high-level organizations.
Back engineered technology that specifically has to do with things like the broadband speed transmissions.
Just to give you an idea, the connection technologies, you can actually find them on the web at connecttech.com.
These guys are sort of like the, they're like the garage, they're like the front garage for the National Security Agency.
These guys sell everything from engines to wiring to super advanced carburet.
I mean, all kinds of wild stuff that the NSA basically just downloads out in the public sector.
The other thing is, too, is that when you have a company like, for example, a company like OmniGon that's about ready to go public, this company has gone from about six bucks a share to literally like 24 cents a share.
Now, what better way when you're about to introduce a new technology than to basically collapse your stocks to the point of where they're virtually useless, corner the market on your own technology, and then turn around and release the next phase into the public sector.
It seems as though with these companies, and to give you an example, with a company like Army.
Well, there are a lot of reasons why the stock market's been dropping, and I think none of them have anything to do with what Clinton did for eight years or George Bush.
I think the biggest factor is that Alan Greenspan, since the crash in 92, instituted a totally illegal, what he called his plunge protection team to rig the market and huge sums of cash, resulting in high, and the horribly unstable market that we've had.
And that coupled with the U.S. government's reluctance to rein in a whole series of unscrupulous financial practices such as pooling have basically led to this extremely unstable market.
Okay, but in a way, you're telling me you're personally optimistic, but your prophecy, on the other hand, was pretty specific with regard to the number, and it did close at 1672.
So separate personal optimism from actual prophecy.
The first thing that's going to happen is that the financial markets are going to do very well.
I still, in my prediction, believe that as the NASDAQ began to tank, that the DAC would go quack and the DAO would go wow, as they say, the trend being your friend.
That the best investments right now, there's a whole stack of them, is to get, obviously those who did not listen to me before and get out of the NASDAQ, the best way to go is to get, yeah, like my brother, like my own brother, yeah, is to get into the financial markets.
I think that Greenspan, when the Fed finally meets in May, is going to cut interest rates even further.
I think you're going to see the interest rates, and I'll make a wild prediction here, but you'll see interest rates go down to between 4 and 4.25%.
Then we're looking at, once again, I think about 60 to 75% of the major computer companies and dot-com companies will be bought up by the majors like Microsoft and Cisco Systems, and that those are still going to be your best bets.
That now is actually an excellent time to invest in certain companies like Cisco Systems, Corning because of fiber optics.
I'm saying that what's happening is that everybody Realized finally that Yahoo was simply not worth as much as Texaco, obviously.
And I've been saying this for a long time: that as the NASDAQ begins to collapse, that there are certain fabulous buys that if the market begins to climb out of the hole.
We had a blast from the sun that perhaps was an X22, biggest one they've ever seen since they've been recording these kinds of things.
And it's like if it had been two days earlier, it would have hit Earth, probably knocked out the majority of satellites and done a lot more damage, really would have clobbered the economy.
Well, absolutely, because the financial markets are all related directly back to the sun, because the sun controls the most primal function in the human body, which is the limbic system.
The entire markets and all economies run on two basic principles, greed and fear.
And what happens is when people get greedy, they buy.
When they get afraid, they sell.
And what happens at a solar, whenever you have usually a massive solar ejecta, it triggers something in the limbic system of the brain, and you have these massive collapses in the market.
And for the last few years, as we've seen, I mean, there's a reason why the market is as huge as it is.
Maybe people have a primal fear about the sun doing this because at some time in our distant past, something came along from the sun and wiped out a lot of life.
Maybe.
And maybe we have some sort of genetic memory of some event in the past.
There's a lot of strange things going on, and I'm sure you've seen, I remember as far back as 1996 when Pleiadian contactee Audre Ain told me that the Pleiadians were doing something with the sun and showed me a series of photographs that he claimed to have actually taken on a craft that had the sun in the background with the Pleiadians.
He said we're somehow fixing the magnetic field of the sun and that the sun would get, that without this the sun would get completely out of control right around 2000, 2001 or so.
And now with a lot of the, as a matter of fact, I'm working on two parts of the newsletter right now.
I'm working on sort of a UFO section which shows a series of photos from the SOHO satellite that then are compared to a series of Pleiadian spacecraft that are supposed to be around the sun fixing it.
And you actually see the SOHO photos with these craft the same shape.
And I'm also working on everything that I think people should be buying right now that if they're selling out of the market or if they got out of market when they told them to get out, then they're sitting pretty.
But I'm putting everything together right now as far as a whole series of analysis of what I think is not only going to survive, but what I think is going to thrive.
You can order it off our website if you go to www.delphiassociates.org.
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If everything written in the Bible is real, but especially whether the man, Son of God, Jesus, in the flesh, walked on earth.
Have you wondered about that?
I sure have.
Boy, have I wondered.
I mean, is there any greater question?
Probably not.
Not in importance, not in the long run, because, you know, we're all here for the short run.
Tonight, Dr. Gilbert Lavoy is my guest, and he has been researching the Shroud of Turin, and he says that he can prove that not only is the Shroud real, that the carbon dating is wrong, but that it was Christ, indeed Christ.
That image was Christ, the one of the Bible, the Son of God.
And that's who we're going to be talking to here in a moment.
He's a native of Springfield, Massachusetts, graduated from Boston College and the Medical College of Virginia.
He then attended Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene, Public Health, earning an MPH in internal international medicine, actually.
He is an internist, by the way.
Dr. Lavoie served two years in the U.S. Army as Chief of Epidemiology and of the European Command in Germany.
I'm reading this from his website because it's a little too wide to print out.
He then participated in the World Health Organization's smallpox eradication program, working in Bangladesh, board certified in internal medicine.
Dr. Lavoy practiced internal medicine in the Boston area for many years.
In 1990, he began working in occupational medicine and earned his boards in occupational medicine in 1977.
So he's a mainstream doctor, folks.
He's a recognized international authority on the Shroud of Turin, an international authority on the Shroud of Turin.
For the last 22 years, he has pursued a medical and scriptural study of the Shroud, which some believe to be the burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth.
Now, I'm not going to go on reading because it's a little hard reading directly from the website, but we have photographs on our website, as he does on his, that will track with the story we're telling.
So you might want to log onto my website right now at www.artl.com.
And there will be several options for you there.
We've taken a little bit of care in tonight's program so that we could be sure you would all see these photographs.
We have links, of course, to the Good Doctor's website.
The book is Resurrected, Tangible Evidence That Jesus Rose from the Dead.
The photographs that we're going to look at tonight are the first item we've got listed.
We've got those on our website right now, multiple servers, exhibits of the Shroud.
Those would be the photographs.
They're also available on his website, which is called The Shroud of Jesus.
And so all of that is up there right now.
I suggest you begin making your way toward my website at www.artbell.com.
You're welcome to go to his website.
The only reason we put up photographs on ours is so that just in case, I mean, we have killed our share of websites, you know, we want you to be able to see those photographs one way or the other.
So coming up in a moment, Dr. Lavoy.
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Now, to Dr. Lavoy, to Boston, and Dr. Lavoy, who's up real late because it's after 2 o'clock in the morning in Boston, I guess.
Well, I think as a physician, that was really, because of my background, I was fascinated with the blood marks and so forth that were on this cloth.
And that's what sort of, I really approached this as a physician, you might say, looking at a patient at the bedside, you know, we're sort of investigative types.
We're presented with a problem, and we have to find out the answer, generally for the welfare of the patient, of course.
But from this point of view, it was just, it seemed like a medical mystery.
What were these blood marks?
Were they real?
And so forth.
In fact, when I started, the first thing I did is I went to see, this is 1978, 79, I went to see Dr. Ernst Kitchener at the Harvard University, who was just about ready to retire.
He's one of the foremost experts on icons.
And I went to him, and you'll see my skepticism.
I said, how could, was there a painter who had done paintings like this or painted blood like we see on the Shroud of Turin?
And I was very surprised when he told me and informed me that the Shroud of Turin was absolutely unique in the world.
It did not fall into any artistic category at all.
That I could look all I wanted, but I would never find a blood painted like the Shroud of Turin on any paintings.
And indeed he was right.
As I looked, I found absolutely nothing like this.
It's in 1978, the STRIP group, which is a group of American scientists, about 30 or 30 American scientists, went over and what they did is they placed sticky tapes on the cloth.
They placed it over the image area, over the blood area, and over just non-image areas and non-blood areas.
They use these very special, you know, Q-tapes to do this, and they brought back material.
Now, a doctor, Alan Adler, who I got to know very well, unfortunately, he just recently died, as a chemist at Western Connecticut University.
Not only was he a chemist, but he was an expert in porphyrins, which is part of the chemistry of blood.
He did some exquisite studies on this and proved without any doubt that what looks like blood on the Shroud of Turin is indeed blood.
And we'll talk about this as we go along, about blood and about image, because we're really talking about two phenomena here on the shroud.
One is blood marks and one is image.
And for the people that maybe not familiar with the shroud of Turin, the shroud of Turin is a cloth that is 14 feet 3 inches long by 3 feet 7 inches wide.
And on that cloth is a very faint image of the front and back of a naked man who's been both scourged and crucified in the same manner as Jesus.
And as you mentioned, you have it on some of the pictures on your website.
We just have about 10 there.
And if somebody, if my website, which is shroudofjesus.com, shroudofjesus.com, that people can follow along if they have the opportunity.
If not, we'll try to describe things as best we can.
Well, there was a group out of Texas that got some blood from the shroud.
Unfortunately, they got it in a way that was not formal through other means.
And so it isn't recognized by the church, the Catholic Church that actually owns the shroud at this point in time.
And they state that they did a DNA study on there stating that this was a male.
Of course, you can just tell that by just looking at the shroud itself.
That doesn't give us really new information.
People complain about that particular study because of how they got the blood, and some other people feel that, well, there could be a lot of contaminants on that clot, which is true.
So DNA may not be the best way of approaching this problem.
Plus, the fact to know exactly who that person is, well, we'd have to have a sample of Jesus' blood.
The only reason I even bring this up is I read a lot of science fiction, and I read a book that you may have read that indicated that, why, if you could get the DNA of Jesus, aside from the wild cloning stuff going on right now,
you might be able to determine whether the DNA of Jesus was human DNA all the way, or whether a man who worked miracles might have had some subtle, tiny difference in his DNA that allowed what he did to occur.
It's just a fascinating question, and I guess they don't have that kind of quality DNA to do that.
What's happening there is that's actually at 64 times magnification right over the nose.
We're really deep into the cloth, right over an image area.
And I think probably one of the most fascinating things before we get there is really just to talk about, and those images are sort of not in the order that probably would best be to approach this.
We're probably on my website, if people can get to it, shroudofjesus.com, or actually you have the two pictures there a little further down, and that's the positive and negative picture of the man of the shroud.
Well, back in, let's go back to 1898 when the first photograph of the shroud was taken.
And what people saw was simply that particular face that you're looking at right now, a black and white of that, a black and white picture of that face.
It's the only thing that anybody saw for centuries.
And that particular face, something had happened in 1898.
The first photograph was taken.
It was taken by a man called Secundapia.
He didn't go there with his little camera, but he went there with a, in those days, a very large camera with a very large negative plate.
And he took his picture of the shroud, of what you're looking at, not just the face, but the entire shroud.
And then he went back to his dark room.
And when he did that, he was developing his negative plate.
And all of a sudden, as he was developing his negative plate, he saw what looks like a positive image of a man.
And Pia, at the time when he took that and saw this incredible positive image on a negative plate, he asked himself, how could there be a positive image on a negative plate?
He didn't know why.
And then he realized that what indeed was on the original shroud was a negative.
At least had negative qualities.
And so the question was, how could a negative image get onto an ancient cloth when photography was only invented in the 19th century?
And because of this discovery, people began to study the shroud.
And actually, there was a wave of interest around the turn of the century, 1902 or so, when this was all discovered.
And scientists began to look into this.
And man like Barbet in the 30s and 40s, who also started as a skeptic, as I have, came to study the shroud and start looking at it from a medical point of view, which is the way that I look at it.
Okay, doctor, a real quick question, layman question, sorry about these, but just so I understand, whether it's carbon dating, which argues with what you believe or what you believe, it doesn't make any difference at all, does it?
In other words, if this was all, no matter what date you settle in on as the one you like, it predates photography, right?
You look at the negative, and then you look at the positive, photo number 85 on the website, on our website, and you will recognize this as every photograph you've ever seen of Jesus.
I'm Art Bell.
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We have an internationally recognized expert on the Shroud of Turin here, Dr. Gilbert R. Lavoy.
And we've got photographic evidence that you might want to follow along with on my website.
You might try to make it to his website.
You might make it.
It's slowing up a little right now as thousands of you hit it.
So good luck.
There's a lot more information on his website than there is on mine right now.
We just got these 10 photographs so that you might follow along just in case what's happening right now began to happen and his website began to slow down a little bit.
My my, there aren't a lot of you out there.
A question about the negative to the positive on the Shroud of Turin in a moment.
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Doctor, I'm afraid I'm going to ask some stupid layman-like questions, but going back to 84, the negative of the shroud, here's what I'm trying to understand.
I think everybody knows if you have a negative as a photographer, you can create a positive.
What's interesting from a medical point of view, just looking at that face while we're right there, you see there's a number of what look like blood flows in the hair and on the face.
And also, if we had a picture of the back of the head, you'd see a number of blood flows that are just at the back of the head.
And so, Barbé, when I first remember reading his book and naturally other people looking at that, is that these blood flows would probably indicate numerous puncture wounds and come up with the possibility that this person had a cap of thorns on his head as opposed to a crown of thorns, a cap of thorns on his head.
You can't, you know, just by looking at these, you can't tell it was a cap of thorns, but you know there are numerous puncture wounds at the top of the head.
But the interesting thing here is you come down the face.
In medicine we like to say a thing symmetrical or asymmetrical, are they the same on both sides or not, on the positive face that you have in front of you?
If you look underneath the left eye, you see it's very smooth, but underneath the right eye, you see there's a swelling there.
Cloth is, in other words, made in the 14th century simply because in carbon dating, that's when the plant would have been picked from the ground.
And I feel it was a 14th century cloth.
I accepted that date, and it was sort of like two truths sort of colliding, and I had a buzz in my head, and I said, something's going on here.
Anyway, I said, well, I accepted that date, and I actually went out and made presentations and whatever, stating that the shroud was actually a 14th century artifact.
And then I would show my pictures and the work that I had done.
And it was very interesting because my audiences would say they'd end up doubting all the carbon dating.
And I said, well, I must be doing something right.
So I decided to, being here in Boston, I went to MIT and started studying the scientific literature with regard to carbon dating.
Sure.
And I came to find the following, a fascinating thing.
When we do studies in medicine, we do protocols, scientific protocols, doing cancer studies, research, and so forth.
And we follow our protocols to be sure something works or doesn't work.
Anyway, the scientific protocol that the carbon daters used, they stated that they should take six samples from the shroud and send it to seven labs to get the best results.
Now, and of course the reason for that, throughout the carbon dating literature and all the literature when you do sampling and everyone who does this kind of work, either in chemistry, physics, or whatever, biology, epidemiology, we know that you need to have a number of samples to be sure that the samples that you have are representative of the material you're testing.
So it turned out that as time went on, in 1996, a piece of the sample that they used for carbon dating was checked chemically to the rest of the cloth, to the non-image areas of the cloth.
And the chemistry of that sample they used for carbon dating was found to be different than the rest of the shroud cloth.
Therefore, the investigator came to the conclusion, and rightfully so, that the piece that they used for carbon dating was not representative of the rest of the cloth.
And because of that, not being representative, you really have to have samples that are representative of the whole in order to make a good study.
From the point of view of carbon dating, I think we have to say the carbon dating is really not a valid study, so we just have to put that aside.
I wish it had been a valid study that this whole thing wouldn't have occurred.
But from looking at the cloth, from an archaeological point of view, there are many scourge marks over the body.
These are, and one would, they're all over the body.
One can see them on my website.
And actually, there isn't a good picture of them on your website right now.
But they're dumbbell in shape.
In other words, they're a Roman phlegm, a first century Roman phlegrum, was made of leather straps.
And they had at the ends balls that were little balls of leather or bone.
And they would form these type of dumbbell-shaped marks over the body.
And there's about 120 of these all over the body.
So from an archaeological point of view, that's suggestive of a first century event.
That's all I can say.
Also, it's very interesting from the point of view of place.
I met a doctor, Max Fry, when I was interned in 1978.
He's a criminologist from Switzerland who had done, placed also sticky tapes on the shroud and found pollen spores that were not only from France and Italy, from flowers from France and Italy, but from Anatolia and from the areas that would be around the Dead Sea.
So that brings us to the, let's say, the Jerusalem area, generically.
And so we have a place.
This shroud has an itinerary, and at one time it was around the Dead Sea, which is fascinating.
The big question that I have, and I guess that a lot of people have, is, and you're able to answer it, and that is, this obviously is an image of a man.
I think a man who has been bleeding, as you have suggested.
How do we know, I said to you, how do we know this is Jesus?
I think that one of the first things is for your listeners to understand is a little bit more about the blood marks and the image itself, these two different events.
And I think the first thing is that the blood marks are definitely, from a forensic medical point of view, that of a crucified man.
In other words, in studying this, this man had died in the position of crucifixion, had then been taken down from that position, laid on one end of this cloth, and then the other end was draped over and sufficiently tucked around to result in the blood marks that we actually see here on the cloth.
We have some pictures, for example, on your website now that if people can't get to mine or it's too slow, picture 56.
And what it turned out is that when he studied that, he realized, first of all, that the wound wasn't in the middle of the hand like we'd see in all types of crucifixes and whatever, that the wound was actually at the wrist.
And he did some studies, took a dabbers, put nails through the palms of the hands, and found that the weight of the body would just tear through the flesh.
However, when he placed the nail on the wrist, he found that the ligaments and bony area would actually hold up the body.
So anatomically, this mark was correct, found in the wrist.
The other thing there is if you can see that blood flow as it goes along, you can see that the arm had to be 60 degrees from the vertical, in other words, in the crucified position, for blood to flow down and just follow gravity.
So the position of the arm when this man died was in the position of crucifixion by just sort of studying that blood mark and that blood flow.
And finally, what was very interesting here, fascinating me, is that he was a surgeon that worked in the 30s and 40s.
There were situations where he had to amputate an arm.
And each time he did this, he would place a nail through the wrist of this hand, an arm that has still muscles and nerves still active.
And each time he did that, he noted that the thumb would go inside the palm of the hand.
And therefore, the back of the hand, if you looked at your back of the hand with the thumb inside the palm, you see four fingers and no thumbs.
And that's what you see there on the shroud in that picture, four fingers and no thumbs.
Right.
So the question is, how could a, let's say, a 14th century artist have anticipated the scrutiny of a 20th century surgeon?
I started looking at that, and for about three years I tried to figure out what that was.
In fact, I asked all the experts and I read the books, and no one knew what that was.
So I couldn't figure out what it was and how it got there.
And one day I said, if I can only figure that out, I had a full-sized copy of the shroud in my home.
Somebody had let me borrow.
And I placed it over myself one day, and I discovered what that was.
And in my book, of course, and also you can see on the website, that what I did is I did a transparency of those blood marks and arm, and I placed it over a volunteer.
People that are looking at my website can see.
And then they could see that when that cloth drapes around, it drapes not only in the front of the body, but drapes around the side of the arm and touches the back of the upper arm.
Right.
And there, and that is where that blood flow was.
It was in the back of the arm.
And then we go to the very next photo, which would be 65.
Or if you want to experiment with this, just go get your hands all wet and hold it up in the manner depicted in photo 65 and you'll see exactly what happens.
In fact, I'm going to try that.
We're at a break, Doctor, so hold it right there.
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And you know, Doctor, I went into the bathroom, cupped a bunch of water in my hand, put my hand up at the angle in photo 65, and it flowed exactly as depicted there.
I think that that's a great observation, and that's the truth.
If you're just dealing with the blood marks that are on here, that is indeed what you could say.
Because even though I have to say this, that it's remarkable that the blood marks, and we don't have plan to go into that, but it's not even in my website.
It's in my book, Resurrected.
It gets into all these details.
That, you know, it's just remarkable how every single description that we read about of Jesus' crucifixion, you find on this cloth.
Even the blood and the water.
It's just amazing.
It's just the details, it's just incredible.
But you could say, you know, with all the thousands of people crucified, possibly somebody also had a crown of thorns or a cap of thorns, or somebody else also had a wound to the side.
And you could create that argument, and I say, yeah, that's true.
That's very possible.
So it could be any man from the point of view of the blood marks, as long as we recognize that definitely there was a crucified man.
Science brings us to that point.
And believe me, I presented this to many physicians.
I was just invited by another physician to a large physician group in Omaha, Nebraska.
I'm going to this weekend.
And I stand in front of physicians and an audience, thousands of people presenting this.
And there's no question.
Nobody ever asks me whether or not there's a crucified man when they see the forensics that I have to offer.
I think it's established, yes.
There's no question about it.
Now, the question is, who is the man?
And that individual is absolutely correct.
It could be any man.
Except now we've got to go to the image.
And we just could start with just a couple of things about the image.
Realizing the blood marks are one event, and the blood actually soaks through to the back of the cloth.
And some of my pictures in the website, and of course in my book, gives you an idea what that means.
But anyway, we'll just go right to the image itself.
And we have to understand that a little bit.
First of all, we have to establish what this image is.
And the best way to do that is to now go to that first slide there that you look on your website, that linen magnification.
Now, and other people can look at it on the website, my website, shroudofjesus.com.
Anyway, it turns out that if you look at this, you go right down deep into the cloth.
If you look over a blood area, that is not a blood area we're looking at, we're looking over a 64 times magnification over the image area on the nose.
But if you were to look at over a blood area, which I have on my website, you would see that there is a sort of brownish-reddish material that's intertwined among the fibers and so forth of the cloth.
You're just seeing some shadowing at that level, but you're not seeing actual debris.
And what's happening is that, you know, what you're seeing is those are threads, large threads, and each one of those threads you can see is made up of tiny fibers.
Less than half the diameter, way less than half the diameter of the hairs on your head.
And it is the yellowing of these individual fibers that are responsible for the image.
Now, if you take a pin and start pushing those fibers around, you would find that right underneath the fibers that are yellowed, you'd find immediately they're white.
Right, gotcha.
So the image only goes down into the cloth one fiber deep.
So it's a very, that phenomenon, first it's an it's a negative image.
We have this phenomena that no one, people on television and some people have claimed that they've been able to reproduce this kind of thing, but at the microscopic level and the photographic and so forth, and the anatomy and the blood marks, no one has been able to recreate this image.
It's unique in the world, okay?
And if they had, believe me, I'd be there to find out what it is, because it just, I have done that, and each time I do, it's just a major disappointment in the sense that it's not, they can't do it.
So it hasn't been done.
Now we come to the major point, a major phenomena, try to understand why.
So first of all, if it's created by a painter, it's not the shroud of Jesus, obviously.
So it's not a painter here, but I have something that brings us, science tells us again that this phenomena is something that it's an amazing phenomenon that we cannot understand.
At least we don't know how to do it today.
No one has technically been able to do it today.
So that's annoying.
You need that as a prerequisite if you're going to start talking about this being the Shroud of Jesus.
So science brings us to this point.
The Shroud is not a painting.
This is really the blood of a crucified man.
And basically, science can go one more step here.
And if you go to my other picture, let's see here.
And there, you see on the face that there's hair, there's in the hair there are blood marks.
Can you see them?
Yes.
And so what I did is I, because the same thing as the study of the blood off the left elbow, I did a tracing of these blood marks.
And in my website, and also in my book, naturally, you can see these pictures.
I did a tracing of these blood marks.
And then I took, I did a cutout of that tracing, then I placed that over a face of a man.
I draped it over a face of a man, and then I filled in the cutouts with blood.
Not with blood, I'm sorry, with paint.
It's getting a little late for me here.
With paint.
And then when I took off the cloth, underneath I saw that the blood did not originate from the hair, but literally originated from the temples and cheeks of the man under the cloth.
This is very difficult for people that do not have the pictures in front of them, and it's a difficult concept.
But what it is, is that the blood marks originated, in other words, they were on the temples and cheeks of the man under the cloth.
The cloth was draped around the face, and the moist blood clots that were on the face soaked into the cloth.
And that, and you see that it's as if the cloth was then, it was originally on the face, and then it was straightened out, and then in between the blood marks that were originally on the temples and cheeks, a snapshot, you might say, or a negative image of the face came in between those blood marks that were originally on the temples and cheeks, if you get what I mean.
So is there any natural means of reproducing what happened with the shroud, this image that has appeared on the shroud?
Is there any natural means?
Could you take somebody out, lay them down short of the blood, because nobody's going to allow that, and cover them, and in any period of time, would you get what we've got?
Since 1898, better than 100 years, people have tried to reproduce this using, doing the kinds of things you're talking about, and no one has ever been able to do it.
And neither do you find, when you investigate and look at shrouds of true shrouds, true cloth that covered bodies, Egyptian stuff, you don't find anything like this, just smudges and things.
There's nothing like this in the world.
This is a unique image.
I think this is a little complex.
I think people really have to read my book, Resurrected.
They can start with my website to really get to the So basically to summarize it, the blood marks are simply a contact process, but the image is not a contact process.
If they look at my study on the blood off the left elbow.
So, therefore, the next step is to really, it was an event.
I'll have to, as I talked to you when I first, when I first talked to you on the phone, the truth of it is that I never believed that I would ever find anything on this clock that would convince me that this was definitely, you know, like, for example, that this image appeared at the moment of the resurrection.
I was adamant that nothing would ever convince me of that.
And I have to say that, and we'll go into that, is that I have to say that I feel that I was wrong about that, and I'd like to explain why.
Well, when I was doing that work on the blood on the face, I took my pictures of my volunteer, and, of course, the blood marks indicate this man is lying down.
So I had the, and everybody who's ever studied the shroud has ever, we've all believed that the man of the shroud is a man laid out in burial, that the image is also of a man laid out in burial.
And you see that that whole face is gray and bland.
Yes.
So when I saw that, I said, what's going on here?
have to remember i was the major skeptic you know well what's wrong this whole thing is a fake or whatever what's going on this is supposed to be a negative it doesn't look like a negative at all when i take a real person you know yes so then i i started to look through the rest of my negatives and to my amazement i came across another negative of my same volunteer and that's let's go to figure 74.
Under the nose and at the lips, just like we see on the shroud.
And it turned out, and that was sort of an awesome moment for me because that image does have some of the appearance of the qualities of what we see on the shroud, light areas around the eyes, under the nose and at the lips.
Coming up right after the break, Dr. Gilbert Lavoie is here, an internationally recognized expert on the shroud of Turin.
I'm Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
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From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
My guest is Dr. Gilbert Lavoyd, an internationally recognized expert on the Shroud of Turin.
And I know that a lot of this is very technical.
I hope as many as possible are able to follow along on the website because it is important to see the photographs.
We'll do another segment with Dr. Lavoy in a moment.
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Now, the fascinating thing is that these shadows were not only, what looked like shadows, I should say, because I'm not saying this was made by, this is an actual photograph, because the image is much more complex than that.
And I'm not saying regular light made this or anything.
We don't know how this image was made.
But basically, what look like shadows are not only on the face, but I did studies, and you can see them in my book, that you see this not only at the face, but you see them at the pectoral muscles, the shadows and at the hands and so forth.
So it's consistent throughout the body that it looks like a man who is upright.
And if you want to, I've asked painters, expert painters, looking at this, and if a painter wanted to paint this, this is exactly what they do.
They put these shadows in to make this person look upright, right?
It's consistent with an upright man from the point of view of shadows.
Then I did another study.
I said, is there anything else on this cloth that tells us that this man is upright?
And I studied his hair.
And you look at the hair, and if you probably go to the positive image 85 of the face, and there you see the hair falls down to the shoulders, just like a person is upright.
Following gravity, a vertical person who's vertical, exactly.
And it turns out that I also have a picture of a young lady lying down, and you can see that the hair falls backward.
It doesn't fall down, you know, it follows gravity.
So this is definitely obvious from the point of view of just looking at it.
Everyone knows what hair falls down following gravity.
Now, the feet, you don't have a picture of that, but the feet, actually, you see the soles of the feet, they're actually bloody imprints of the feet, so this man is not standing.
So what you get is the impression of a man who is upright and suspended in midair.
Many years ago when I first started showing these pictures and I was with a group of physicians and before I even understood this phenomenon, years before I understood it, and after I gave a lecture to a group of physicians and one of the physicians sort of stayed back as if he really wanted to ask this question alone and an orthopedic surgeon.
And after the lecture he came to me and he said, you know, he says, when I look at these pictures, he says, it seems to me that this man is suspended in midair.
He's upright and suspended in midair.
The other orthopedic surgeon saw that immediately when he looked at those pictures years before I figured it out because I was so prejudiced to believe this man was lying down.
But he wasn't.
He just saw it that night and there it was and that's what he saw.
So, what we have is exactly what you just said: a crucified, blood of a crucified man.
Now we have an image of an upright man who's suspended in midair.
I said, what are I going to do to this?
And I was not a person that read the Bible.
But I can tell you that this discovery caused me to go and try to look for answers.
And I really didn't have any other place to go but to the Bible.
So I started reading, and I went from one gospel to another, and I finally reached the Gospel of John.
And it states in the Gospel, in chapter 12, verse 32, Jesus is talking.
He's talking and he states, and I, and I, when I am lifted up above the earth, when I'm lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
When I saw lifted up above the earth, I said, that's the very same imagery that I'm seeing on the shroud, lifted up above the earth.
And so I then went to the commentaries and I read, went to one of the best commentaries on the Gospel of John by Raymond Brown, respected by all faiths, actually, this commentary, this gentleman, Raymond Brown.
And at the very beginning of his book, and throughout different sections of the book, there he talks about, he does an extensive work in the Gospel of John.
He talks about this sentence, and I, when I am lifted up above the earth, will draw all people to myself.
He states, lifted up, when Jesus talks about that, that is the culminating event of his life, the reason why he came.
And that lifted up means lifted up in crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension.
And so there we had the imagery of being lifted up from the words of Jesus, the culminating events of his life, and there what we have on the shroud is the very same imagery.
And it is because of this, and that this is the reason I believe this is indeed the shroud of Jesus.
Doctor, when you have presented this final clinching evidence, and I realize how you had to work up to it, but when you present this evidence to others, to colleagues, to other researchers with regard to the shroud, how's it greeted?
Well, it depends on, when I present this to people who are interested or just looking at the shroud for the first time or just have an interest in the shroud, it's greeted very well.
I present this to physicians and it's greeted very well.
There is a group of people that have studied the shroud that are very interested in understanding the mechanics of how this image got onto the cloth.
Some of those guys are a little bit upset with my fact that I'm saying this man is upright.
And they use studies like VP8 image analysis and so forth stating that I'm saying this is a photograph.
And indeed, I'm not saying that it has photographic-like qualities.
And some people say, in other words, it's very difficult once I have this man lifted up to figure out a mechanical way, let's say the body-to-cloth relationship that allows one to figure out how this image got onto the cloth, you know, as it covered a body.
And the fact is that a small group of those people disagree with me.
Can't we imagine or mustn't we at least imagine that if it's what we believe it is, that the energy of that moment, of that instant, was transferred to the cloth in the manner you've described vertically in mid-air.
And so it was, and I use the word miraculous, but for lack of any better word, that instant described is the only way this could have happened.
Well, to be very frank with you, I guess what it comes down to, as you're saying this, I guess the best way to describe how this happened, my mother has the best answer for this, I think.
I think what I have here, if I sit in a room with you or any of those people, and we're just covering the very top of what I have to offer here, just skimming the top of it,
that if we sat in a room and discussed this, I think if I had time to talk to everybody who disagreed with this and they saw these images and so forth, they'd come to understand that this was indeed an incredible enigma that's worthy of at least Looking at and contemplating,
and as opposed to just thinking in terms of it as being a hoax, I think there's definitely a tremendous amount of information that points to this being the shroud of Jesus.
The one last conclusive piece of evidence that this would have occurred in mid-air, as somebody was suspended in mid-air, not crucified, not lying down, but suspended in mid-air, people are going to have to give that some pretty serious thought.
Yeah, we will keep the photographs that I've got on our website at least for a few days because I know a lot of people will listen to this by computer the next day and replays of it and they're going to want to go and look at the photographs.
And it is something I'm going to have to think about.
There have been many, many arguments about the Shroud of Turin.
All kinds of arguments about it, haven't there?
The carbon dating, when it came from.
I think conclusively he proves that it came from the time when we know the first century, all right?
So I think he's established that.
I think he's established beyond any shadow of a doubt that this was a man crucified.
And I think if you look carefully at the evidence, that he has established also that this was a shroud that came from a man that was in mid-air.
That's the amazing one.
That's the one you've got to think a little bit about or a lot about as you consider what you just heard tonight.
And again, we will keep the photographs on my website because I know a lot of you are going to want to review them.
And we'll also continue to allow you to go to the link.
As a matter of fact, we've got, you'll find under Dr. Gilbert Lavoy's name, photos, exhibits of the Shroud.
Those are the photos we have on, so we could be sure that you'd get to see something tonight.
And then the link to book Resurrected, Tangible Evidence that Jesus Rose from the Dead.
Then the website itself, the Shroud of Jesus, and of course the NBCI search on the Shroud of Turin.
If you just want to do a lot of reading on the Shroud of Turin and begin to come to your own conclusions, you may want to back up a little bit, do a lot of your own research, and then move forward into Dr. Lavoie's research and come to your own conclusions.
That's what I try to do on this program, is to sort of lay things out for you, very controversial things, and this is certainly one of those, and let you come to your own conclusion.
At the very least, I think the research of this man who's internationally recognized as an expert on the Shad of Turin has to be taken into consideration no matter how you feel about whether Jesus was real or concocted by somebody and all the words in the Bible that were supposedly his words were concocted.
You have to roll over this kind of evidence to get to any sort of conclusion at all.
I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
When we come back, we'll go to Open Lines.
We'll talk about this and your impressions of Dr. For 66 years.
unidentified
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Music We teams are made of the earth.
When my youth is free, I travel the world and the seven seas.
Everybody is looking for something.
Some of them want to use you.
Some of them want to get used by you.
Some of them want to abuse you.
Some of them want to be of you.
Wanna take a ride?
Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Arpell on the Premier Radio Network.
I know that was a very hard technical interview to do, but it was a very profound interview as well, profoundly important.
And so when we end the show at 3 o'clock Pacific time, we're going to replay the two hours of that interview.
Those of you who know about the Shroud will have followed it and will understand the profound conclusion reached at the end of the interview.
I certainly do.
Others may have to take their time and follow along, so we'll give you that opportunity if you get a repeat.
And the same goes for tomorrow night.
The concluding hours of the show will be played.
So if you get the prefeeds, and yes, we do prefeeds now, you'll be able to go through it again.
Very, very, very interesting.
I'm Art Bell.
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Please do not attempt to call, email, or write me and convert me.
I'm incontrovertible.
Sorry about that.
I just am intrigued with what the good doctor just said, Dr. Lavoie.
Surely, you know, he delineated very clearly where he left science at the very end and where he made the leap.
But the science does take us to an interesting point, that the individual on the shroud, we have no idea how the image got on the shroud.
There's no way to duplicate that.
It does go back to the time that it had to have been.
Moreover, the final crushing point that this was a shroud, an image done at the moment that a body was vertically in the air, suspended from the ground.
And I think probably the most significant thing about this program and about what Gilbert has brought forth is not what it will produce in the Christian or religious world, but what it will produce in the scientific world.
Yes.
What you've done on this program, and I've been listening to it very carefully now since about two weeks before you came back on the program, and what you've done is you've created in this time some real milestones for science that I think need to be followed through on.
And tonight's program is one of them.
Just before you came back, a couple of weeks before, Mike had on a guest by the name of Dean Raden, who made a very, very significant statement.
He's a scientist who's looking into the paranormal.
He's gotten some funding from Bill Gates' partner, Paul Allen.
And it was a very significant program.
But the statement that he made, as it applies to tonight's program, that I thought is very, very significant, is that there's a great difference between getting people's attention and getting their intention.
And he applied this to scientists.
He said that when he shows the evidence that he has shown to scientists that there is reason to believe the paranormal really has sound basis, he gets their attention, but it's very different from getting their intention.
And I think that as an agnostic, anyone who is an agnostic, listening to tonight's program, I think the thing that would give us hesitance about jumping into something like this is not wanting to become what Christianity is in our minds, not wanting to be like another Christian, so to speak.
And so the significant question that we have to ask is you mean fear of faith?
Well, no, it's just that what we see in religion, we don't want to become a part of it.
What are they trying to tell us that obviously has not gotten through to the Christian world?
I think that's the big question.
And people like Dean Raden need to be brought back on this program so we can start getting into those questions.
We know there's something phenomenal out here.
And every reasonable person who listened to tonight's program would say, yeah, this was an agnostic doctor, a scientist, looking at this when he came to all this.
And I could hear the open-mindedness in your mind as well.
But I think you're like many people in the scientific community who have a willingness to believe.
But there's that other notion, am I going to become another one of these?
You know, all of your comments are interesting, and you may be absolutely right.
It may have something to do with a fear of faith, because once you made the jump, once you made the jump, there wouldn't be any turning back, would there?
In other words, suddenly you believe it all.
Once you believe part of it, I guess you believe it all.
You can't Believe in all of this part way, can you?
That there was a man who walked on earth, the Son of God, who was crucified and then resurrected?
If you believe that, then everything else has to be embraced as well.
And I'm sure that caller's right.
I'm sure there's some fear about that because it would change you incontrovertibly.
But anyway, he said that not only are people on the planet after him and after his friends, but there are off-planet forces trying to keep this quiet too.
Now, if they wanted to keep it quiet on all levels, they could wrap the whole incident in a thought form of a hoax.
You know, as Ed Dames would call it, the target.
Wrap the target in thought form, layers of thought forms that they project onto the whole thing because they figure there's not only going to be physical investigators, they're going to be psychic investigators.
So Ed Dames comes along and he tunes into it and he bumps into these thought forms that are wrapped around the incident that say hoax and everything like that.
Well, we shall see in a kind of an interesting way.
Well, I'm just going to get myself lost.
If I backtrack into the interview we just did, I'm going to get lost, so I'm going to avoid it.
Listen, thank you very much for the call and take care.
Maybe I'll say a word or two.
If we're talking about the possibility of extraterrestrial life, go back to the Brookings report.
What did the Brookings report really tell us?
It's commissioned by the government.
It told us that people would basically go bonkers if extraterrestrial life was suddenly present or the truth of their presence was suddenly revealed in some official way.
Everybody would go bonkers.
Well, I think they would.
And I think most Christians would.
And now I'll back up into the program a little bit.
Dr. Lavoie came to an incredible conclusion, and he did so scientifically, that this man had to be in mid-air, that this image had to have been transferred at that moment in mid-air.
Okay, well, if you embrace that, and then you embrace Christianity in general, and you embrace the whole thing, you buy the whole package, which is what we were talking about a little while ago with that other caller, and then you contemplate the possibility of there being extraterrestrial life that,
for example, might claim to have created us, us, then everything that you have embraced and believe, believed, blows up in your face, doesn't it?
Everything.
If you embrace everything as written in the Bible, if you embrace Jesus, the man being on the planet, the true Son of God, crucified, then resurrected in a way we could not possibly explain today.
If you buy all of that and then you consider the possibility that others would come along from elsewhere and claim they created us, that they are the authors of our genetic makeup, the Anunnaki, Sitchins, Anunaki, whatever it is that you want to contemplate, it collides immediately with this deep Christian belief and a lot of other beliefs, by the way, also around the planet.
So I have always believed and believed now that the bookings report is accurate and that pretty much people would go bonkers.
And one of the things that I've come to think over time is that when you look at the creationists, you look at Christianity, and you have to make the leap of faith, I think that one of the things that becomes very obvious or something that has to be considered is that any God that can create the universe,
that can create people, can also create a world that has artifacts of dinosaurs and ancient civilizations and all the things that science looks at to say that things are different than what those with faith have.
And that's the ultimate test of faith, if you follow what I'm saying.
Why wouldn't it be sufficient that people would have faith?
They would have made that leap.
They believe without the necessity of evidence.
Why would a God, in effect, torture people by providing additional evidence that would argue against the whole premise?
I mean, I just don't understand.
That's not a godlike thing to do.
unidentified
I think that what the issue is, is you would need to have the ultimate faith in belief, and I'm going back to the creationists, the creationists who talk about Aren't we tested in our faith daily?
I mean, God does not come down from on high every day and say, I am God.
I am the miracle worker.
Here are my miracles.
Everything that we know is based on faith.
And those who don't have the faith say the faith that we have or those that profess to have faith do that to fill in a gap, to make existence mean something.
It's hard enough as it is that X number of things must be accepted on faith.
Ah, what a word, on faith.
Why would a creator throw in 50 million more things to be considered and to challenge that faith?
unidentified
Because then you have an absolute of saying, I believe without questioning that God exists as opposed to having to continually go through this argument of science.
Now, when he talked about Hitler, he talked about a man named Hister who would be born near the Rhine carrying the crooked cross, referring to the swastika.
But yes, I've always had that's kind of like other things that you accept on faith alone.
How about this?
Let me run this one by you.
Are you ready?
In 1555, Nostradamus wrote the following.
Come the millennium, month 12, in the home of the greatest power, the village idiot will come forth to be acclaimed the leader.
It finally happened.
I don't want to have to switch the H to get there.
W, I think you're all right.
I'm Art Bell.
unidentified
Music I've got to climb by like a wind to be free again.
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And if the night wasn't quite as bold as the night should be, he rode an old grey mare called Bets.
There she was a damsel in distress just to see if he could be rusty on the ride to her raid.
Deep is hanging at his side with a rusty blade.
Wanna take a ride?
Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
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It's amazing that I actually got through on the shot of Turan, although your guest is gone, so my question is a little bit null and void.
I was going to ask him about the, you talked about the bloodstains around the face area, and I was going to ask him how he accounts for the face cloth placed on Jesus' face after the crucifixion by Mary.
First thing you've got to do is learn how to say that.
See, it doesn't.
A millennialist.
It's like trying to say unique New York three times fast.
Anyway, so what are your thoughts?
unidentified
The two things that we do, the first thing we do is we accept that this stuff was written 2,000 to 2,500 years ago, depending on which religion and what have you that you take all this prophecy from.
So we have no idea what these people saw.
So the second thing that we do is we say, okay, this might not be literal stuff.
This might be along the same lines as taking a book like Brave New World and sending that 2,000 years into the future, which if they would look at their timeline, they would say, well, this is 2,000 years after Ford is the year written here in the book.
The second thing that we do is we take little marks that are written in prophecy that we can find in other places on the Bible.
And the classic one that I like to use is you talk about the mark of the beast in Revelations.
And the term mark is actually used in the Gospels, in the book of Luke, if I remember right, when Jesus Christ is asked by the Pharisees, should we pay taxes to Caesar?
He asks for a coin and he says, whose mark is on the coin?
So, and the exact same Greek word used for mark in that reference is used for mark in the reference in Revelation when it talks about the mark, or more precisely, the image of the beast.
But the concept of a God, an all-powerful being with the ability to create the universe and everything within, and then placing within that humans, you know, a species there with the ultimate purpose of worshiping him.
And then, if they fail to do so, to torture them in an all-fiery, burning hell.
And the other caller said, and, you know, and we'll put down, we'll put all these dinosaurs in and we'll throw in all kinds of artifacts and we'll really make it hard to believe in me.
And then we'll see what those lowly humans do.
We'll see if they can get over these obstacles.
It's not my kind of God.
unidentified
Yeah, it seems kind of petty for a being that has the ability to create the entire universe.
I just want to say that, you know, it really doesn't take any more greater leap of faith to believe in Jesus Christ or God, you know, with capital G as it does in little green men from other worlds, you know?
They bring forth fuzzy photographs to try and prove that a man and dinosaur walked along together happily, hand in hand, or a claw in hand.
unidentified
Well, there's something really important here, though, I would want to get out, and that is in the first chapter of Genesis, in the first verse, you know, it says that the world was without form.
Well, the Bible also says that God cannot create imperfection.
So there's speculation here that there was more than one destruction, you know, other than the flood.
They can't create anything.
Well, I mean, you know, we were influenced by other things, though.
But, you know, as far as the Bible itself is concerned, I mean, you know, from a Christian viewpoint, you know, there was two destructions in, you know, the Old Testament.
Hey, I just wanted to ask, you made a brief comment the other night regarding some irrefutable type of evidence coming forward regarding the existence of Bigfoot somewhere in...
One is out of Britain right now, where they tested the hare, and it's no known species.
The other, though, I don't know about irrefutable, but it's an ongoing, important contact in the middle part of the country between many individuals, not just one, and Bigfoot.
And I'm not allowed to go beyond that until I get the okay from the person who's going to bring these witnesses on the air.
Yes, I said that.
unidentified
All right.
Well, buddy, I'll tell you what.
I have actually been playing phone tag a little bit with you, and I can get with you some other time.
But I do have Bigfoot on videotape at close range.
I've got all of your information here, Jeff, including your contact number and all the rest of it.
unidentified
Yes, and I apologize.
I know I've missed your call a couple times, but we can...
What I have, Art, is I had designated a percentage chance for the existence of the animal, but to my friends in the field of research, I was at the point where I would justify it by saying, oh, what the heck?
Maybe I can go up there and catch some hoaxers doing this.
And, you know, I was a little bit kind of a closet.
Okay, I was at 11,200 feet within the Colorado Rockies.
It was 11.30 at night.
I had a Sony night shot camera with an external infrared light source.
And what I would do, I was following up on a very, very credible report from two professionals who were extreme hiking.
And so I believed that absolutely that they saw something.
So what I would do is I would slowly pan tree lines with the camera.
And during my two hours of panning, which started at 11.30 at night, I literally got the animal's right shoulder, his entire face, the top of his sagittal crest.
And they have the tape now, but what I have now is pretty impressive.
But leaving nothing to chance, the first thing I did is I sent it to NASA.
NASA?
This is going to be a whole can of worms here, but I actually...
Well, I got a disclaimer from them and I sent the tape to them because I happened to have done a project with NASA eight years ago.
Still had a contact there.
I got the tape in the door under the auspices of I have something on a tape that I cannot explain.
Art, what they did is they analyzed the tape and after three days they got back to me saying, and I quote, Jeff, what you have on the tape is for sure a bipedal subject.
However, without thermal imaging, there would be no way for us to determine absolutely whether or not the top of that, as you call, this is them talking, sagittal crest, is prosthesis or if it's actual skin tissue.
It would be, I'll tell you what, the photographs that are being analyzed will be downloaded onto a disk and sent to me, and I'm told that they're going to be a minimum of 300% better than what I actually have right now.