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March 22, 2001 - Art Bell

02:42:28

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Eugene Mallove, Richard C. Hoagland - Infinite Energy. Steve 'Dr. Sky' Kates - Fall of Mir

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	♪♪♪ ♪♪♪
	♪♪♪ I bet you can't hear me!
	Hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello.
	Oh boy, ah!
	Where is my microphone?
	My microphone, my microphone is not working!
	Ha ha ha!
	I bet you can barely hear me out there.
	My mic is not working.
	Let me smack it a little.
	Hello there!
	Hello!
	Hello.
	There we go.
	There we go.
	That's how they made stuff work on Mirror.
	How you doing everybody?
	I've got a microphone here that's a little bit under the weather and it needs a good Mirror smash every now and then.
	My Mirror... Welcome back photos on my...
	Go up to my website on the webcam, you'll see how I felt about Mir as I watched it plunge to Earth.
	Here shortly, we're going to have, we're going to have Dr. Sky on, who's going to engage us in a little conversation about Mir.
	I was watching two astronauts on CNN, excuse me, cosmonauts, who were sort of, you know, reminiscing about the old Mir days.
	Incidentally, no tacos.
	Forget the tacos, it missed.
	It is the Pacific.
	They were reminiscing about the old Mir days, and they said something I thought was rather interesting.
	One of the cosmonauts said to the other, Come on, boy, he didn't say that.
	Maybe we meet on Mir 2.
	Something like that.
	Mir 2?
	I thought we had the International Space Station.
	Dr. Sky coming up on the demise of Mir, and maybe the more interesting topic right now, since she's in the water, would be What about that fungus?
	🎵 Ha ha ha, you remember that, huh?
	I can't hit my mic to demonstrate.
	You remember that movie, I think it was... Armageddon, wasn't it?
	Where the Russian cosmonaut said, I show you how you fix things!
	Banged on it.
	That's how I fixed my mic.
	I wonder if that's what Mir sounded like as it came crashing back to Earth.
	Well, ladies and gentlemen, here comes Dr. Skye.
	Steve Case, actually.
	Dr. Skye has been engaged in the science and astronomy business.
	Is that a business?
	The science of astronomy, actually, for well over 30 years.
	And he got his first experiences while a young man.
	From his parents, Bob and Dolores, his first true observations occurred when he was just 7 years old, viewing the moon and planets in a $10 telescope provided by family members.
	And you know how it goes from there.
	You get hooked, right?
	The first real event that he saw was the 1966 landed meteor shower from his home in New York City.
	Atop a tall building.
	This encouraged him to make the sky his passion.
	And it's been so ever since.
	Here is Dr. Sky, who happens to be just over the hill in Las Vegas right now.
	Dr. Sky, welcome.
	Good to be with you, Art.
	How are you?
	I am just fine.
	Well, a mirror actually came down, I guess, Just a few minutes before 10 o'clock or this last hour here in the West, right?
	That is correct.
	I was watching, as you were, on CNN.
	Was there anything at all anomalous about the fall of Mir or was it sort of well within what they thought it was going to be?
	Well, actually Art, it seems like it happened a little sooner than they actually predicted.
	And looking at some of the feeds, as we all were, I'm sure, with CNN and some of the other networks, it appears that those lucky people On the island nation of Fiji, some of the eyewitness accounts coming in describe fingers of material moving across the horizon at great speed, making sonic booms.
	The envy of the whole world if you're fascinated by this stuff with the science of astronomy and space science.
	But the end of Mir is here.
	And I just got off the telephone just before we went on the air with the folks at the U.S.
	Space Command.
	And they're going to have a confirmation very shortly from some of their ground telemetry stations.
	As to the exact end of Mir for the final confirmation.
	You mean so there is some possibility they could get up and say, well, we thought it was down, but it's still, there's still part of it in orbit or something?
	Well, maybe some pieces that have not struck the ocean at this point in time.
	But Art, can you imagine just being down there?
	I mean, I was trying myself to get a small group of people together, but logistics aside, it just wasn't going to work.
	But it's an amazing sight, you know, as Dr. Skye goes around the country talking about these kind of things.
	The basic premise here is, as you promote, you know, all the time in your time on the air, looking to the skies, I mean, there's just so much that people can see.
	And up on our website, just for all the world to know, which of course is linked directly right off of your site, We have shot, with Keith Rowland's help, a wonderful video of a passage of Mir just about two weeks ago over Phoenix, so if you never got to see it, you can download this interesting video.
	Mir memories.
	Oh yes, Mir memories of Mir that is no longer.
	Alright, did you happen to see the discussion of the two cosmonauts on CNN?
	I just did, yeah.
	They were talking about Maybe see you on Mirror 2?
	Yeah, what's that all about?
	That's my question.
	What's that all about?
	I thought it was the International Space Station.
	Well, you know, Art, they didn't want to give this baby up for a long time.
	I mean, they just kind of kicked their heels up and said, well, we're just going to keep the year going.
	And, well, I don't know what that really means, but I think they're going to try.
	At least the best information that I've gotten from some space experts is... Stay good and close to that phone for me there, Doctor.
	Yes.
	How are we?
	Are we closer?
	That's good.
	That's good.
	Well, it appears that they may be, you know, putting their efforts toward this International Space Station of sorts, but I wonder about that, Art.
	I'm going to be checking that out in great detail over the next couple of weeks myself.
	We'll see you on Mirror 2 Business.
	Yes.
	All right.
	Now that Mirror's down, we don't get tacos.
	It missed that.
	Listen, what about this space fungus thing?
	You know, I saw A message to me, an email message that said that somebody at KGO, the sister station that I'm on in San Francisco, called NASA and asked about fungus and basically got hung up on.
	I'm not surprised.
	Really?
	That's one of the most interesting parts of this story and a little bit of information I've been able to gather on this and try to do some research on it is that over the last year or two, this potential for wide-scale growth on board the nearest piping Some sort of an organic compound eating away at the titanium piping and other assorted metals.
	I'm a little confused about all of this because I talked to Linda Moulton Howe who said she talked to some scientists and that the mold or the fungus on Mir was the same thing that you would find behind your refrigerator.
	Well if that's the case I think we should all invest hard in a tremendous amount of Lysol stock because if it's that common garden variety type of a fungus.
	I don't know that for sure, but it does seem that there's not been a wealth of information anywhere that you go to at least explore what this stuff is.
	Well, I know that the fungus, if I have it behind my fridge, is not eating my fridge.
	Now, titanium is pretty tough stuff to be getting eaten, isn't it?
	Absolutely.
	It's extremely lightweight, as we know, and extremely durable.
	So this brings up a whole host of interesting questions as to what the heck this thing is.
	And the big question, of course, is As it went into the ocean, what becomes of this fungus?
	Did it all disintegrate?
	And an interesting part about this whole Mir complex, as everybody who's been watching this and, you know, waiting for the countdown anxiously or otherwise, is that as we know, this is a big right-angled structure.
	So a lot of blockage in front may prevent the vehicles or the assemblies behind it from burning up completely.
	So the possibility of whatever was on board Mir goes into the oceans.
	But as you know, Art, It's stated that comets have seeded the Earth, potentially, as one theory of how life, of course, has come to this magical planet, but, oh, we're bringing back something from space this time, and that's the big question.
	What the heck?
	What the heck?
	Well, alright, so it can eat titanium, and the other thing I read about this fungus was that it was Surviving on whatever little biological give-off the astronauts and cosmonauts who are on Mir had.
	You know, little skin flakings or whatever would come off a person.
	That's not much to be able to actually subsist on biologically.
	Not at all.
	If some of it, Doctor, does survive and get into the ocean, Now, the ocean, compared to the sterile inside of the mirror, or even the dirty inside of the mirror, is a pretty nutrient-rich environment.
	And I've seen all the horror movies, and so I wouldn't be at all surprised if something with giant teeth, probably a screeching comrade, comes ashore in Fiji and eats somebody.
	Well, it'll be like those science fiction movies, like a Godzilla-type movie of sorts, but who the heck knows, Art?
	I mean, that's still one of the most incredible stories.
	And checking this out on the internet, I mean, there just doesn't seem to be a whole wealth of information anywhere you look.
	Well, there were a number of Russian scientists worried about it, I know that.
	I read several of those stories.
	That is true.
	So I guess in the big ocean, we're going to have to see if anything, as they call the area where this craft landed, the Roaring Forties.
	And for certainly a good reason, because this part of the ocean, as many people may not know, is some of the most turbulent waters on the entire Earth.
	Great.
	Latest information that we had about the downing of the Mir on its own is that that whole area right now has a tremendous low pressure system moving through it right now, stirring up the muck, so to speak.
	So, who knows, Art?
	That's...
	Interesting stuff that I'm sure we'll be pursuing with great fever over the next couple of weeks here.
	By the way, if anybody in New Zealand or Australia wants to try the international line right now, you can get through at 800-893-0903, just in case you've got a report for us out there.
	Would anybody in New Zealand, for example, or Australia, would they have had a chance to see anything?
	I doubt it at all, Art, because the time as you move the opposite direction, meaning moving west, Would have increased, of course, the amount of daylight that was there.
	How about Guam?
	That area?
	Possibly.
	I don't have a Terminator map right in front of me right now, but probably your best sightings, as was reported before, this is an area that, as I mentioned, I, myself, and a lot of other people were looking to go to.
	This is the area that the mere re-entry people chose for a good reason, that apparently the object was supposed to come nearly overhead.
	In art, to me, that's still the most fascinating thing, because I've listened to you for years, I know that of reports that many of your callers call in about fireballs in the sky, those of course not being man-made, at least we don't think so.
	This one is quite fascinating, because back in 1979, it's kind of a deja vu night for me.
	I did this back on radio in 1979, and we're talking to the good folks at NORAD, and then they were not giving out a lot of information about the Skylab, but kind of interesting, almost the same area of the Earth, but they realistically probably didn't get to see too much unless you were in Fiji, And I also understand there's fishing boats that are off the island nation of Tonga.
	And I've been monitoring, I'm sure like yourself and all the folks that are listening to the program, any of the feeds that are coming in.
	I wonder if any fishing boats got to see it.
	Real close up.
	I'm sure they did.
	And I bet you we're going to have a wealth of information coming here on our own website.
	Of course, I'm sure Keith will be streaming whatever feeds come through.
	Oh, we'll have it all up there.
	And soon, I heard them dismiss the CNN reporter on Fiji to run over to the uplink.
	So, obviously, we're going to get... They said they had good video of it from Fiji.
	Yes.
	So, we're going to get to see that pretty soon, I suppose, on CNN.
	Oh, yeah.
	Well, it should be quite exciting, Art.
	And, you know, I know you've talked about fireballs in the sky, and I've witnessed so many of these optics.
	And, you know, I live, of course, in the Arizona area, Phoenix, Arizona, but in the deserts of Arizona, just like your high desert over there.
	I mean, folks that have never seen the skies like that, they should certainly take advantage if they ever get a chance to head west and see the wonders of the nighttime skies.
	Well, fireballs are cool.
	They're amazing.
	And now there is a distinction, however, between a fireball and a fireball which either stops or changes course.
	Or reverses itself.
	Peter Davenport at the UFO Reporting Center in Seattle has told us about some of those, or particularly, hovering fireballs.
	Because you don't get a lot of hovering fireballs as a natural re-entry sort of thing, right?
	Quite rare, Art.
	You're absolutely right.
	And I've seen an amazing object once that's a direct line-of-sight fireball.
	Where the sky, of course, looks like it brightens like a star.
	Oh, you saw that during the day?
	Oh, I don't.
	This was in the evening.
	Okay.
	But this is amazing.
	I mean, this is just so rare.
	And I've witnessed, like many people, the propensity of these big fireballs moving across the sky.
	I remember back in New Jersey when I was quite young, looking into the early evening sky, an object shaking across the sky, making noises like that of a mini sonic boom.
	So the folks in Fiji and in Tonga, they got to see, and hopefully we'll get to see, some amazing footage.
	Do you think, as you mentioned earlier, there were several privately chartered jets and planes that headed to the Pacific to see this?
	I wonder if they were, since they laid a little heavy on the re-entry, The Progress rocket.
	I guess somebody had a heavy finger on it.
	Yes.
	Pedaled to the metal.
	Do you think the planes were able to get in position that went out there?
	Or do you think they were disappointed a long, long way away?
	I think they may be disappointed.
	I think from what I've watched on the ground tracking, or the CNN tracking, it appears that the object came in short of that mark, at least for initial impact.
	So I imagine The aircraft that they had in the area.
	And to the best of my knowledge, after checking this out, I thought they were going in one big jumbo jet.
	And I was interested to find out that apparently it's a small series of turboprop aircraft, thus limiting the potential range.
	They're going to be on some 747 or maybe a new nice modern 777 or something like that from Boeing.
	But it appears, Art, that they were probably forced to be closer to land than previously thought.
	I think over the next few hours, as you get the show rolling, I think we're going to see some amazing turns in this.
	And hopefully some of their video, and the rest of the folks, the regular networks, will get to show us some of this.
	It's quite exciting stuff.
	But I think the fishing boats might have had the tuna boats off of Tonga.
	In my opinion, Art, I think they might have had the best view of this, possibly even streaking overhead.
	And that's something that we all live for, if you love this kind of stuff.
	I'm sure we're going to get an interview with an incredibly excited Mr. Tagahashi, who was out there just about a mile or two from where it probably came down.
	Oh, Eric, that's wonderful.
	I can't wait!
	I think that's exactly the most amazing stuff going on here.
	But the whole point of this is, from my perspective, is that, you know, folks can go out there, as you do, as we do, and I know thousands of listeners do, maybe millions of listeners, I would hope.
	You go out and you don't really need a lot of expensive equipment to see things.
	There's just a wealth of objects that you can observe regularly.
	And we observe the International Space Station on just about every other day here in Phoenix.
	Oh, it's very bright.
	Oh, it's beautiful.
	And even the Hubble Space Telescope.
	I tell the folks on one of the TV shows, the stations here in Phoenix, how to see that.
	And they're amazed that that little dot has given us this beautiful series of the eye into the depth of the universe.
	There's so much to see out there, and we just want to stay in touch with you.
	How long do you think the International Space Station might be up there?
	I think, Art, the best information that I've gotten on that is probably, when it is completed, say in the year 2004, probably about 15 years is what the estimation is for that survivability in space, which is kind of like that of Vermeer.
	But what I think is interesting is, I think we're learning a lesson on this, and I think the way we could sum it up tonight It's morning for those listeners out there that may have just joined us, is that the little Progress supply ship that attaches, of course, to the Mir, it's really the story of the little rocket that could, because we heard if the telemetry links were down, that's the only way they could return safely to the Earth without dispersing it.
	But again, this is different, much different than what Skylab, because remember, Skylab had no rocket control.
	It was just doing the thing, and gravity was doing its thing.
	But I would imagine we've learned a lesson from this, and I would hope Now, when the International Space Station, bigger and brighter than the mirror, is due to come down, maybe they'll build in some systems onto that that are, of course, we hope, better than what we've got now.
	But a lot of people are curious.
	Why don't you just disperse it?
	I keep hearing, why don't you just separate the object?
	Well, the simple truth is, as you know, why would you want to have five or six randomly moving objects that are going to come in on their own?
	There's where you have a problem.
	All right.
	Well, so there it is.
	The end of Mir, I guess, unless there's some special announcement.
	Right.
	We're waiting, as I said.
	U.S.
	Space Command will issue a complete analysis very shortly.
	But it looks, Art, to the best of, I think, the world right now.
	Nothing unusual happened.
	It was probably the biggest and brightest light show that many people have ever seen in their life.
	Do you feel nostalgic now?
	Yeah, I really do.
	Sorry, sorry that it's gone.
	I feel sorry.
	I mean, a lot of people were knocking on the space station, but you know, Art, We learned a lot over the course of the 15 years from the space station.
	Though peace is in the ocean, of course meaning Mir, obviously I think there's a whole new frontier ahead.
	Well, I was told that for those who stayed on Mir, it was like a course in terror.
	That a lot did go wrong.
	A lot of emergencies and they were banging on stuff and I guess they had a real time with it.
	There's a lot of cosmonauts and even our astronauts complained about Mir.
	But now she's gone so we can all be, I guess, nostalgic.
	Yes, it's sad.
	I mean, that's my answer.
	I mean, I think it's sad that we've lost the spacecraft.
	But the new era, as I call it, begins when we have Astronaut Titov, hopefully going up to the International Space Station soon, though to the objections of some of the folks at NASA, obviously money is what helps provide that entrance or admittance to the park, so to speak.
	But I think it's a step in the right direction, and I think we're going to have lots of neat stuff, so I can just encourage all of the listeners to always stay in touch with The program and how to find these objects in the nighttime sky, Art, because there's a whole bunch of stuff coming up, and we've just begun.
	All right, well, listen, Dr. Sky, we will use you again as needed, I guess.
	I really appreciate your appearing on the program.
	Well, thank you, Art.
	It's good to have you back on the air, and thank you so much for having me here.
	Okay, take care, my friend.
	There is Dr. Sky for you.
	And so, at the end, a mirror.
	Sort of anticlimactic, huh?
	No tacos.
	Nothing landed on land.
	The only thing that we have to consider is... Did the fungus make it down?
	You see, we won't know about that.
	In fact, we may not know about that until... Something green.
	Long.
	Extremely slimy.
	With large teeth.
	Falls ashore.
	Probably in Fiji.
	Or Tonga.
	Try to be on one of the next Survivors, actually.
	On a Survivor TV show and eat somebody.
	I don't know about that, but we do have to follow this, and how we're going to follow this story from here on out, I guess we can.
	Actually, can we?
	All we know is, if it made it back, it's in the Pacific Ocean, churning about now with lots of nutrients.
	And I will leave you this hour without thought.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Want to take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	to the Rockies 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	And to call out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	Alright, we've got that working again.
	I was wondering, I'll tell you this is malfunction day around here.
	That's what I was going to use for vulgar music this time, but it wasn't there when I called for it.
	Gosh, that was interesting.
	And my microphone malfunctions right at the beginning of the show and I have to pound on it like the cosmonaut on Armageddon.
	Anyway, so much for that.
	Welcome back everybody.
	So there's no more Meera and there's no free lunch.
	No tacos.
	She's down and there will be video of it, I would imagine, shortly on CNN that we'll all get to see.
	At the top of the hour we're going to have Dr. Eugene Malov and Richard C. Hoagland here with a number of things to talk about many of which we have covered some new stuff with regard to Mars and Sir Arthur C. Clarke.
	I'm just going to be talking about all kinds of things at the top of the hour,
	and I've got a few surprises for you in this half hour.
	All right, I'm...
	I finally can talk to you about something tonight.
	This is, uh, not really an advertisement.
	I guess in a way it's an advertisement, but I, I've... I broke Bob's arm, Bob Crane's arm, until he went and got these.
	And so I'm gonna tell you about it.
	Finally!
	Finally!
	It's one of the neatest things that I think that I've ever seen, and, um... I'll just tell you about it.
	It's called... The Buzz.
	What is the Buzz?
	What is it?
	Is it it?
	No, it isn't it.
	But it's close.
	The Buzz, I've got some photographs on my website right now, is an electric scooter.
	It's a better scooter than I saw Dean... Remember the picture of Dean Kamen's scooter?
	The little girl on the scooter?
	This one's a lot better, a lot nicer, from my point of view.
	My wife and I have two of these, and we've had them for months and months and months.
	And when we got them, well, we actually got one first.
	And it blew our minds.
	It absolutely blew our minds.
	This little scooter has a seat.
	It has, in the back of it, a cage where you can put groceries or something like that.
	It has smooth acceleration.
	It's totally electric.
	Totally electric.
	Now check this out, folks.
	This, uh, it folds up, by the way.
	This little scooter, on one charge, one electric charge, will go 13 miles.
	13 miles of quiet, personal transportation.
	You can use it instead of a car.
	In most, you know, instances, I think the stats in America say that Americans make very short trips.
	Maybe if you're in a retirement community.
	I mean you take a look at this on the website.
	What I did is I took several pictures of Ramona on the buzz.
	And it's got a computer in it.
	It's got a key.
	You turn the key, and the computer comes on.
	You press the brake, and by the way, it's got drum brakes.
	Really nice drum brakes.
	And you release it once, and then the computer comes on, tells you, okay, go.
	And all you do is press the accelerator.
	Now let me tell you something about this scooter.
	Let me tell you a lot of things about it.
	Number one, Because the center of gravity is so low, you think, oh, I couldn't ride one, I'd fall off one of those.
	No.
	No, not at all.
	In fact, the center of gravity is so low that you don't feel, you don't even feel as though you're gonna tip over.
	I'm not saying somebody couldn't tip over in one, because obviously anybody can do anything, right?
	But this thing will go at 15 miles per hour, up to 15 miles an hour, For 13 miles on one charge.
	Folds up.
	It's good for everyday transportation to the store, whatever.
	Drum brakes.
	Tough aircraft aluminum frame.
	Comes with a basket big enough for a grocery bag.
	It comes... If you buy it, it's got a one-year warranty.
	I'm really not trying to make this a commercial, but available soon to go with it.
	A solar power system to run appliances and charge your scooter.
	So in other words, shortly there will be a solar system that will, not exactly come with this, but be available so that the charging can all occur from the sun.
	So you don't even have to use grid power for it.
	But once you have seen this thing, it will blow your mind.
	Go to my website at www.artbell.com.
	Let me see, let me do it myself so I'm sure.
	Go to What's New, and the first item on What's New is going to be the Buzz.
	This is just the coolest thing in the whole world.
	The first one, I can tell you, I did not buy from Bob Crane, nor did he send me.
	Uh, we bought it ourselves, and I, I was, my wife and I were so blown away by it, that we called Crane and we bugged him until he said, alright, alright, alright, we'll sell a few.
	So there'll be an advertisement here on the air later in the show for the Buzz.
	I think, uh, that, uh, they're $599.95.
	But I mean, we're talking everyday transportation here.
	Leave the car in the garage.
	You don't need it.
	This thing is quiet.
	It's just, you don't even really hear it running.
	It just propels you along.
	Will it take the steepest of hills?
	No, no, no.
	This is meant for... It'll certainly take reasonably sized hills.
	It won't take 10% grades or anything like that.
	But 15 miles an hour.
	For, uh, 13 miles on one charge, then you just plug it in, charge it up, ready to go again.
	This thing is awesome!
	And I'll tell you what else it is.
	It's fun!
	It is so much fun to just be, uh, we get a lot of stares in the neighborhood, you know, as we zip around on these little things.
	We've got two of them, and I couldn't recommend it more highly.
	It uses a little electricity, and that's it.
	No gasoline to spill, no muss, no fuss, You get the thing, it's UPS shippable, and you go, toonk, toonk, toonk.
	You know, it comes out of its collapsed position, and you're ready to rock!
	You're ready to go!
	It's got a gigantic, beautiful charger with it, so it charges rapidly.
	It's got a, as I said, it's got a key, an ignition system, and it's so amazing to just be Almost floating along.
	That's the closest description I can give you.
	That's why it's so much fun.
	It's silent, and you're just floating along.
	Well, I've been wanting to tell you about this for months.
	Because I think it's so efficient.
	I mean, imagine something that goes 13 miles on one charge.
	Up to 15 miles an hour, which is plenty fast enough, believe me.
	And you'll feel the wind in your face, and you'll feel free, and it's just really cool.
	This is, this was so much fun.
	God, it was a blast.
	And, and I just had to keep my mouth shut about it.
	I kept bugging Bob and said, I kept saying, Bob, you've got to carry this.
	You've got to carry it.
	You know, this should be out there.
	It should be everywhere.
	And so if you want to see what it looks like, I took some photos, uh, not the greatest photos the other day.
	And, and you can see it on my website right now.
	What a totally cool item.
	You have no idea how difficult it has been for me to keep my mouth shut about this for the last, oh, what?
	Month and a half?
	Two months?
	Going on two months?
	Something like that?
	Been really hard to keep my mouth shut.
	By the way, I wanted to make a quick call and have you hear something.
	Here, let me see if I can do it.
	Let's see.
	See if we can do this.
	That's fine, that's fine, let's see.
	Let's see.
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	Oh, great!
	Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
	A voicemail for heaven.
	Wouldn't you like to have that number?
	Hmm?
	Hey, I'd like to... Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
	I'd like to welcome K... V... M... L... KVML in Sonora, California.
	They're 1450 on the dial there, and they probably wonder by now in this hour, what have we got ourselves into?
	You'll find out as time goes on.
	Heaven.
	Anyway, listen.
	I just, I can't rave enough about this buzz.
	This incredible It's really just awesome, this buzz thing.
	My wife and I have had more fun on it, and you know, that's the key word.
	Even though, obviously, with this kind of range, you can use this thing every single day, right?
	And that's what a lot of people are going to do.
	But for me, it's just plain fun to get out there and let the wind hit you in the face and go cruising down the road.
	And it inevitably, everybody stops you and they say, man, that is excellent.
	Absolutely.
	Where'd you get that?
	Where do I get one?
	Well, uh, you can get one from Bob Crane, and there'll be an actual advertisement for it later.
	This is my pitch, because it was my idea, and I found it.
	Uh, not as though it hasn't been out there before, because it has.
	Although, it certainly was new to us.
	So we've got it, the Buzz.
	Take a look at it.
	It is absolutely, absolutely awesome.
	And your, the seat is comfortable.
	Unlike, by the way, I would like to say some bicycle seats these days.
	Has anybody noticed out there that bicycle seats have taken a downturn?
	Now, what do I mean by that?
	I mean that bicycle seats on modern bicycles look like they're made for the area between your cheeks.
	You know?
	Instead of supporting your cheeks, they're made for the area between your cheeks.
	They're crack crunchers.
	They're very uncomfortable.
	They're just very uncomfortable.
	And the seat on this thing is not that way at all.
	You'll notice it recognizes the fact that a human has a butt.
	They're just a lot of fun.
	Maybe Dean Kamen does have a scooter.
	And if he does, that'll be cool.
	In the meantime, there is the Buzz and it's here right now.
	And to imagine that kind of range.
	I hope a lot of people use them in view of the energy situation out there.
	Sure, they've got to be charged.
	To go that far on one charge, it's got one sealed lead-acid battery, which you can't see in the photograph.
	And you just hook the wire up to it when you get home, charge it, and it's ready to go.
	It's ready to go, you know, another 13 miles of fun.
	So that's the buzz.
	It's on my website if you want to see it at www.artgold.com.
	Alright, here's some nice bad news for you, like we needed more of that, right?
	A 25-kilometer crack Has just been discovered on Pine Island Glacier on the west coast of the Antarctic continent.
	Suggesting that in the next 18 months a great big piece of the Antarctic is going to break off and become a monstrous iceberg.
	The crack photographed by NASA's mapping satellite Landsat 7 was spotted by NASA Goddard Space Flight Center Glaciologist Robert Bin Shatler on January 16th.
	Only 10 months earlier, there had been no fissure there.
	So another part of the Antarctic is going to, uh, is preparing to fall off.
	Now, I know that you all, I would presume, have heard about the school shooting in Southern California once again.
	It's, uh, it's, you know, you run out of words.
	comments this time at least as far as I'm aware nobody nobody killed but the
	shooter was shot the and two others were wounded and I you know I just don't know
	what to say about it anymore I watched the the sheriff there comment on it he
	was just he was just saying I'm tired of the whole thing I'm tired of hearing about it.
	I have no answers for it.
	Nobody has answers for it.
	Here's another headline for you.
	Bomb threat closes 44 schools in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.
	44 schools, they say, were closed.
	And a second shooting in the San Diego area.
	That was at Granite Hill High School in El Cajon.
	Not very far, not very many miles away from the last shooting.
	And I'm- I am also out of things to say about it.
	Absolutely out of things to say about it.
	I'm- I'm... I am considering the fact and have been considering the fact that this is some sort of overall evil.
	I- I really don't rule that out.
	I don't rule it absolutely in either, but... Even the sheriff, uh, as- as I just mentioned, uh, down I- I think in El Cajon, was saying that, uh, This simply didn't happen when he was young.
	He's probably my age or a little older, and it didn't happen when he went to school, and it didn't happen when I went to school.
	It's a fairly recent phenomenon.
	Our children taking guns and shooting their classmates and teachers and all of that.
	Pretty recent stuff, folks.
	And we all should be asking ourselves, what has changed in our society?
	And I saw one lady interviewed who said, well, they've taken God out of the schools, what do you expect?
	Others have said that it had to do with what happened 30 or 40 years ago in our society.
	You know, a change of the mores in our society.
	Separate and apart from the God aspect.
	I think most people feel it's probably all tied together.
	I prayed in school.
	My wife and I, we looked at this lady who was describing what she thought about the situation.
	She was saying it's because God's out of the schools and my wife is a bit younger than I am and she never prayed.
	She said, you prayed in school?
	You prayed in school?
	She said, well, I prayed in Catholic school, but not in the school.
	You know, in church.
	Sure, I've prayed in school.
	Yes, indeed.
	I remember that.
	I've got to be honest with you, I don't know that my praying in school, as not specifically religious as I am, had anything to do with the fact that I didn't pick up a gun and shoot anybody.
	But of course I haven't.
	Yet.
	So I don't know, I guess what I'm saying is I don't know that the whole religion angle is it.
	But on the other hand, I don't know what it is.
	Do you?
	Have any of you given this a lot of thought?
	It appears to be completely societal.
	In other words, totally ingrained in almost every aspect.
	It can happen in, uh, kitchens in Kansas.
	Or it can happen in San Diego.
	Or it can happen, it seems like, anywhere.
	There's nowhere that's immune.
	The inner cities.
	Of course it occurs, but El Cajon, that's a beautiful area now.
	Two shootings in the San Diego area, and you couldn't find a prettier part of the country.
	San Diego is, well, kind of paradise compared to a lot of places, frankly.
	And the weather is eternally spring-like.
	Attitude should be pretty good, you would think.
	Not too much heat.
	For rage?
	Not too much cold?
	To wear people down?
	Or, you know, have them be depressed?
	It's sort of eternal springtime.
	So, two recent incidences in San Diego.
	What's a mother to think?
	I don't know.
	I'm puzzling about all of this.
	And I'm reaching for answers and I don't have them.
	So, we will do more on it.
	As soon as I can figure out what it is we should be doing.
	I suppose we could reach out and tap somebody from the clergy and see what they think.
	I don't really know what they think.
	At least, I think I do.
	Anyway, we're going to turn our attention from all of this.
	Don't forget the incredible buzz on my website right now.
	You've got to see this thing.
	www.artbell.com under What's New.
	Coming up, Dr. Eugene Maloff and Richard C. Hoagland and a big night tonight.
	Don't, don't, don't cry by the wind.
	Don't, don't, don't die in a film.
	I cared you not, I thought you'd flee.
	I made you feel a doubt.
	I gave you all I had to give.
	Why did it have to stop?
	You're floating off guide Without telling me a lie
	Without a reason why What you can't know, can you see in the ground?
	So I need no flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac and the sun again.
	Or to fly to the sun without turning a wing.
	To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
	And all these things in our memories are lost to me because of the color of the sun.
	I'm not alone, I'm not afraid of anything, I'm not afraid of anything, just call me.
	Wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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	Mirrors down, no free lunch, no tacos.
	It's in the ocean.
	and twelve ninety-five to talk with art on the toll-free international line call
	your AT&T operator
	and have them dial eight hundred eight nine three zero nine zero three
	this is coast to coast AM with Art Bell. It certainly is, mirrors down, no free lunch, no tacos
	it's in the ocean thing to wonder about is the
	in fact the only thing to wonder about is what it's going to look like on CNN when they get the video
	Maybe they've already got it.
	For all I know, I'm doing radio.
	Number two, what about that fungus, folks?
	That fungus.
	I wonder if it made it down.
	I wonder if it's in the ocean now.
	Eating.
	Anyway, Mir is safely down.
	Didn't fall on anybody's head that we know of.
	Of course, we haven't heard about fishing boats yet, but it's down.
	Alright, we've got a lot to do this hour and hours, uh, forward of this one.
	There is just one thing I want to repeat for those who joined at this hour.
	Of course you know about the, uh, the school shooting.
	Another sad head shaker in Southern California.
	Three hurt, including the shooter.
	Uh, we'll get more details on that, I'm sure, as time goes on.
	Uh, there's a big chunk of the Antarctic, uh, that's about to break off.
	Many, many, many, many miles of ice are going to break off.
	How often have we heard that lately?
	There is, uh, the market, uh, that was almost down 400 points today recovered to about 100 points down.
	So we only lost 100 points today.
	I guess that's... I guess that's good news in this bear market, huh?
	Coming up in a moment, uh, Dr. Eugene Mello and Richard C. Hoagland, and we're going to be talking about cold fusion and stuff like that.
	with these gentlemen, scholars.
	But I do want to repeat, just briefly, the buzz.
	Oh my God, I've been waiting months and months and months to tell you about the buzz.
	It is a scooter that goes on one electric charge.
	It goes up to 15 miles an hour for 13 miles.
	13 miles, and you plug it in, and you can do another 13 miles.
	What I did, to escape having to do too much vocalization about it, My wife and I got this months ago, and I've kept my mouth shut because I wanted Bob Crane to carry them.
	I've got three photographs, quick photographs that I took of Ramona on the bus, and they're on my website right now.
	This thing is so cool and so much fun, it's almost like being a kid again, and it's for adults.
	It's just a blast, and as I said earlier, the center of gravity on this thing is so low that you don't even know you're on a scooter.
	It's just, it's awesome.
	Take a look.
	Go to my website, www.arpal.com, and then go to What's New.
	So, there you have it.
	We'll talk about the buzz later in an actual advertisement, because I made Bob get these.
	I made him get them.
	It took about two months.
	But I just kept pestering him until he finally did it.
	Anyway, that's the buzz as it were and we'll be right back.
	Alright.
	You know Richard C. Hoagland, advisor to NASA at one time, science advisor to Walter Cronkite, Batty, and of course the Angstrom Science Award winner.
	Also tonight, Dr. Eugene Maloff.
	Since 1995, Dr. Maloff has been the editor-in-chief and publisher of the bimonthly Infinite Energy magazine, Cold Fusion, and new energy technology based in Concord, New Hampshire, Now entering its fifth year of publication, Infinite Energy has subscribers in 42 countries, with a print run of 10,000 in March of 99.
	The magazine's New Hampshire-based parent company, Cold Fusion Technology Inc., operates the New Energy Research Laboratory, NERL, and the magazine publishing facility at the Boe Technology Center in Boe, New Hampshire.
	Dr. Maloff holds a Master of Science degree A Bachelor of Science degree in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a Science Doctorate in Environmental Health Studies, Air Pollution Control Engineering from Harvard University in 1975.
	Holy smokes!
	Broad experience in high technology engineering at companies including Hughes Research Labs, TASC, the Analytics Science Corporation.
	That's interesting.
	And MIT Lincoln Laboratory.
	He has extensive hands-on experience in laboratory settings, more recently in cold fusion colometry.
	I think that's right.
	First of all, let's see if we have both these gentlemen on the line.
	You never know these days.
	Richard C. Hoagland, are you present?
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning, Richard, from the mountains of New Mexico.
	And Dr. Eugene Malof, doctor?
	Good morning, Art, from New Hampshire.
	From New Hampshire.
	Live Free or Die.
	That's right, Live Free or Die.
	How is it there?
	I hear there was a storm winding its way through there.
	We've had huge quantities of snow.
	We've had 24-inch snows and 30-inch snows recently, and old New Hampshire-style winters seem to be here, actually, in spring, of course.
	But this one was slightly mispredicted, at least for our area.
	We're supposed to get 14 inches.
	It looks more like 2 or 3 to me.
	Yeah, 2 or 3 feet, you mean?
	Inches.
	Oh, I see, 2 or 3.
	So it wasn't as bad.
	It wasn't as bad as I thought.
	This one has been pretty bad, yeah.
	It's amazing.
	All right.
	Global warming at work.
	Global warming at work, that's right.
	That's what I think is going on.
	Richard, just quickly, since Mir is down, do you have any, well, either one of you, really, both of you, comments on the demise of Mir?
	And most interestingly, Richard, What were those two cosmonauts doing talking about Mir 2?
	I'll see you on Mir 2.
	What was that all about?
	That is a very interesting slip in terms of something.
	Yeah, I thought so.
	The Russians are not happy campers under the NASA umbrella.
	There's a private gentleman, Dennis, is it Tito?
	Tito.
	Tito.
	Now, don't confuse him with Germantito.
	I know, I know, Germantito.
	Yeah, who is a former, excuse me, NASA employee.
	He actually worked at JPL for a while.
	He then went out in the private sector and made millions and millions and millions, I guess, in telecommunications or the stock market or something, and he decided to spend $20 million on a private tourist ride into space.
	He was supposed to go to Mir.
	And then NASA put extraordinary pressure on the Russians to basically end its life.
	So what you saw, frankly, I think it was very sad.
	I mean, I sat here watching, and all I could think of is that this is an incredibly historic vehicle, which, like Skylab, Simply came down because of political reasons, not because of technical reasons.
	The Russians obviously were sad.
	They were very sad, and they had a right to be, because they did some incredible engineering and pioneering in terms of the first real habitable spacecraft that has served us for now almost 15 years.
	But this slip about Mir 2 indicates to me that the Russians are not going to be content just to be a module on the International Space Station.
	And I think you saw a preview of a more feisty, independent Russian space program.
	If I may interject here, as an old astronautical engineer, the idea that two space stations now have been allowed to go into the drink, not only historic, but useful, is absolutely disgraceful in nuclear cosmic terms.
	If someone had told me this while I was studying astro-engineering at MIT from 65 through 70,
	that we were going to have large space structures and just let them fall into the drink because
	no one wanted to send up more fuel and keep it going, I would have thought they were out
	of their minds.
	Well, gentlemen, comments here.
	I mean, over the last few years particularly, both Americans and Russians who have spent
	you know their little time on there have come back and you know talk of terror
	I mean, everything but little aliens hopping on the window on one internet message.
	I mean, real terror.
	Things have gone wrong.
	It's started to spin.
	New technology at work.
	Oh, yeah.
	So, you're saying that Mir really was useful and shouldn't have been brought back and burned up?
	Of course not.
	It's a useful, it's a... Today, with our stupid, uh, uh, anachronistic, uh, it'll eventually be anachronistic, Let's do a back of the envelope calculation.
	Mir weighed in tonight at about 140 tons, okay?
	It's gonna cost us a lot to do it and once you get it up there
	You've paid for it let it stay up there. Just add a little more fuel set up another mission etc. Keep it from
	Getting the kids orbit degrading by the you know the asterisk Let's do a back of the envelope calculation near weight in
	tonight at about a hundred and forty tons, okay?
	at the shuttle launching rate of about Mm-hmm.
	Can you do the calculator handy?
	Not really.
	How much money... A lot.
	How much money literally burned up over the South Pacific tonight?
	Because every pound... Did you say 150 tons?
	Huh?
	Did you say 150 tons?
	140 times.
	140 tons.
	That's 1.4 times 2,000... 1.4 times 2,000, about a hundred some thousand pounds.
	Uh, 300,000 pounds.
	300,000 pounds.
	Okay?
	Times $10,000.
	It's billions.
	Billions of, and billions and billions of rubles, to be sure.
	Exactly.
	Right.
	And, you see, um, Robert Heinlein, who is, uh, you know, obviously known to, to all the audience that, uh, is astronautically inclined, I had a saying once. He said, once you're in Earth orbit,
	you're halfway to anywhere.
	It is priceless to put things in orbit. It is despicable to let them come back to Earth.
	Absolutely.
	And when we launch the shuttle, for instance, every time that external tank reenters over the Indian Ocean, it's a
	crime.
	Right.
	Because those tanks could have been mothballed in orbit, assembled as a megalopolis space station,
	do all kinds of engineering and manufacturing, NASA.
	I've had a guest on that many times, who's been saying those would have made an incredible space station.
	We could have taken tourists up there.
	Oh my God, we could have taken... And here we're talking about NASA stupidly, incompetently, causing any fuss whatsoever about An American entrepreneur who wants to pay the Russians $20 million to go up into orbit.
	They should say, what a wonderful idea, let's do more of this.
	Let's up the price, in fact.
	I think what we're seeing is what I keep talking about in terms of the NASA now.
	Not the NASA of old, but the NASA we have now, which is it exists politically to maintain absolute control.
	And what I find fascinating is the Russians' initial recalcitrance.
	I mean, they really dug in their heels and said, no, we're not going to bring that Gorgeous thing down, meaning near.
	Finally, they were grudgingly forced, because of economics, to basically admit to the realities.
	And they now have said, very defiantly, NASA, you don't own us.
	We're going to have Tito come to our laboratory on the International Station.
	There's not a damn thing you can do about it.
	And that, of course, is the foot in the door, because if Tito goes into orbit and pays his way, There's a lot of people, a lot of people who are not even very rich by today's standards of being rich, who can afford to fund space tourism.
	And we have been saying among ourselves, those of us that kind of looked at the sky and talked about the high frontier, people like Jerry Pornel and Highline and others, we've talked about the idea that it's tourism, ordinary citizens going into space, which will democratize and ultimately industrialize near-Earth orbit and then beyond.
	And that's what I think NASA is desperately afraid of.
	Yeah, I do, too.
	Because NATO represents the first foot.
	I do, too.
	They don't want tourists in space, do they?
	No, they don't want anything free.
	Why not?
	Well, because if you open that door, you open the door to private missions.
	Yeah, well, so... Private missions might take cameras to the moon and show us what's really there.
	As a matter of fact, Richard, you know, we were talking about a moment ago what could be with the SRBs, right?
	Yes.
	I heard that it might be possible, for example, to have as many as hundreds of people up there in such a space station that could be built from these things, and moreover, that it could be boosted up out of orbit, and you could take a tour of the Moon and back!
	Absolutely!
	Again, the timeline.
	Once you're in Earth orbit, you're halfway to anywhere.
	And with the coming online of more advanced conventional propulsion, like ion and plasma and whatever, Or coming online are the most extraordinary exotic physics that Gene and I are going to discuss later this evening, which is not really science fiction anymore.
	You know, the solar system has been waiting, as I said earlier today in another context, and that is the kind of surprise that I was telling you off the air that I want to talk about tonight briefly.
	Oh, you were telling me it was a surprise.
	You wouldn't tell me what it was.
	It is a surprise.
	Well, I said it wouldn't be if I told you, right?
	So I couldn't tell you.
	So we're on the air now.
	Well, we're not quite ready.
	But what I said in another context was, It's been 33 years since Apollo, and 33 years, more or less, is the span of time between Lindbergh's first lonely flight across the Atlantic.
	Remember that movie with James Stewart?
	Yes, I've seen it several times.
	That epic journey of one American across the Atlantic paved the way for millions of Americans in 747s and 777s and whatever, And 30 years is all that separated that flight from the 707, or Sputnik.
	In the same 30 years, from Apollo to now, we should have, on that learning curve, inherited the solar system.
	And instead, we've just been marking time.
	Why?
	Because we've got an agency called NASA sitting in the middle of the road.
	Well, why?
	Unimaginative.
	You know, the analogy, I would say, is very similar to the Department of Energy and Coal Fusion.
	The Department of Energy has this huge aggressive interest, and they've spent already $15 billion, and God knows which years, dollar terms, on trying to mimic the sun in large tokamak hot fusion reactors at Princeton and MIT and so forth.
	These guys were the shock troops against this phenomenon.
	All right, in the beginning it was highly questionable, no question about that.
	I didn't believe it.
	It took a while, but all right.
	After the shaking and quaking of the early days came on, there should have been a reassessment, but this reassessment has not occurred.
	Even as the overwhelming data built up from corporations and Federal Research Labs.
	We can talk later, if you want, about Mitsubishi Heavy Industries.
	But it all boils down to a brain deadness.
	When you have a large, uncified federal agency whose right hand doesn't know what its left hand is doing, we have a golden means now to add energy sources that could be developed without that much difficulty, I think, to run the ion engines.
	Ion engines, which are already developed for solar system-wide flight,
	the golden means now to add energy sources that could be developed,
	without that much difficulty, I think, to run the ion engines.
	Ion engines, which are already developed for solar system-wide flight and qualified,
	are lacking only one thing, a power source.
	Add the power source in terms of cold fusion and other new energy reactors,
	and we do own the solar system.
	Well, I don't even know about cold fusion.
	I've heard six stories from Sunday.
	Of course.
	Hans and Fleshman, they're out of the country.
	Yep.
	Cold Fusion's out of the country.
	It works in one university.
	It doesn't work in another university.
	It's getting bad publicity.
	Yep.
	Now it's flying under the radar and nobody's hearing about Cold Fusion.
	That's right.
	Because of what?
	Because it doesn't work?
	Or because what?
	It's exactly like the transistor.
	Precisely like the transistor.
	It's a solid state phenomenon, typically.
	A catalytic phenomenon.
	You can look up in any chemistry book, and you can look into the standard catalysis processes that are used in industry.
	Ask any industrial chemist about catalysis, and you'll find out that catalysis, in chemical energy of course, is itself a very difficult thing.
	But the transistor, suppose you had a transistor announcement, and you had a small group, not a large group, with billions behind it.
	And you had to develop a semiconductor industry while, A, you had virtually no money.
	You're right, millions have been spent on cold fusion, without question.
	Tens of millions have been spent.
	But at the same time you spent the tens of millions, you had peer-reviewed journals having literally an index, as they have for such things as Mars surface artifacts and so forth, in which it is impossible even to have a technical article reviewed on the subject.
	So you can't even, for example, submit a highly qualified, excellent, bulletproof article showing helium correlation with the excess heat in cold fusion, as has happened... Doctor, are you telling me cold fusion works?
	Of course!
	It's been proved over and over and over... Alright, well what happened in the experiments where it didn't work?
	Well, it's a, as I say, it's a catalytic phenomenon.
	It's like, suppose someone says, hey, hey, you all right?
	Well, we want you to go to your sandbox in the backyard, melt some silicon from the box, build it up a little bit, and make a transistor for me.
	You think you'd succeed?
	Nope.
	No!
	Okay, well, that's a lot of what happened.
	But I mean, we're talking not about art in the sandbox, we're talking about accredited universities, some of which said it didn't work.
	Alright, well let's talk about the three very important ones that said it didn't work.
	Played a role in the Supreme Court... I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what, Doctor.
	There's a tree that said it didn't work.
	We'll do that when we get back from the break.
	We're at the half hour point here.
	Richard Steele, Dr. Eugene Malivar, my guests.
	We're talking about cold fusion and lots more stuff.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Well, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I hear the drum, the jack-o'-lanterns a-singin' She has only whispered just some quiet conversation.
	She's coming in from the deep night.
	And I'm not the type to judge, but you're coming in for a bloody fight.
	Moon red wings, reflect the sun, red flies, it's what our babies show.
	Come down inside and take care, if I find you've been creeping round my backstage.
	You've been looking like a queen in a sailor's dream, and you don't want to say what you really mean.
	Do rechart bell in the kingdom of Nigh, from west of the Rockies dial 1-800-618-8255, east of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	We are blessed to have with us two experts on spacecraft, space travel, and space travel.
	Energy, all the stuff that is really interesting.
	Richard C. Oglen.
	He's no introduction to you, I know.
	And Dr. Eugene Maloff, who's here to talk about energy systems and no-doubt drives and, I don't know, something about Arthur C. Clarke, Sir Arthur C. Clarke, and lots of other stuff.
	Hey, listen, I am so excited about this Buzz thing.
	I finally got the photographs up.
	I don't have time to tell you about it all right now, but go take a look at it.
	It's on my website.
	Photographs, anyway.
	I took some photographs of Ramona on the bar.
	I've been waiting months to tell you about this.
	Months!
	we'll get back to uh... cold fusion and the institutions three of them i guess
	tested it and
	well for them anyway it didn't work maybe i'm jumping the gun a little when i say that it didn't
	work at these three Let me rephrase it and see which one is right.
	The three institutions that said it didn't work.
	Dr. Melloff?
	Yes, well, the three institutions that are most noted in the historical record and in the public mind and certainly the media mind were MIT, my alma mater, and I was the chief science writer, by the way, at the time of the Cold Fusion announcement, March 23rd, 89.
	That's 12 years, by the way, to the day.
	Well, we have a nice program.
	MIT, Caltech, okay, on the West Coast, the Gulf Coast, and Harwell Laboratory in England, all three did cold fusion calorimetry experiments, that is the measurement of excess heat.
	Right.
	And all three reported no excess heat.
	Now, here's the truth about it.
	This is no conspiracy story.
	All these facts are completely documented in the peer-reviewed literature.
	I can hear Richard sighing in the background.
	Right.
	Basically, MIT fudged its data.
	There's absolutely no doubt about that.
	They did?
	They did.
	You were the science writer there, right?
	I didn't know they had fudged it until about a year and a half after they did the experiment.
	By the way, they did their PR hatchet job on Punz and Feichman.
	That's a hell of an accusation to make, that MIT would fudge the data?
	One person did it on the team.
	16 co-authors of the paper.
	The facts are very simple.
	We've published this extensively, and all the details are there in the 1999 10th anniversary issue of Infinite Energy.
	It's a 55-page report, which I wrote, with original source materials that shows That in 1989, after they pretty much had done a PR hatchet job on Pons and Fleischmann with press conferences of their own and so forth, that is, MIT people and Fusion did, they had positive data on graphs showing excess heat on July 10th, 1989.
	Absolutely no doubt about it.
	The data was shifted.
	On the 13th, it was made to look like there was no excess heat.
	Now, by the way, we do not need these MIT results, of course, to substantiate coal fusion.
	That's not the issue.
	No, it isn't.
	It's the issue of ethics and what happened to coal fusion as a result.
	The image of public MIT has, of course, a very, very high profile.
	I'm proud of MIT generally, but in this instance, this is an absolute disgrace.
	I brought to the attention of the president of MIT after I resigned in 1991 After seeing too much of this baloney going on, and too much defense of this outrageous fudging of data, I wanted an investigation, and it was not properly done.
	Virtually nothing was done.
	And I was swept under the rug.
	This man now, Charles Vest, ironically, is under consideration as the science advisor, would you believe, to the current administration.
	Well, let me stop you long enough to ask this.
	Why in God's name would any scientist Who's also a human being and a U.S.
	citizen and a citizen of the world.
	Fudge data that would, if it weren't fudge, obviously lead to a serious development of cold fusion and a new energy source for the whole world.
	I mean, this is not a trivial matter.
	No, no, not at all.
	It's a very simple thing to explain, Art.
	It's a very human thing to understand.
	The hot fusion people, when they first heard about cold fusion, We're actually somewhat excited and maybe a little afraid.
	I saw it in their eyes on the very first day of the announcement.
	It was palpable.
	Then they began to believe, oh gee, these guys are just chemists.
	And they looked at the paper.
	It was crude.
	None of it was faxed.
	And they thought they could find silly mistakes.
	And there were mistakes in the initial paper that Pontiff Fleischmann submitted.
	Uh, and so they thought they'd got them right there.
	Aha!
	They're stupid.
	They're dummies.
	Our program is saved.
	Aha!
	So, they began to be very afraid.
	Hey, they didn't believe it.
	What program?
	We don't have a Hot Fusion yet.
	We don't have a Hot Fusion program.
	We spent $15 billion on it.
	We don't have one single watt of excess heat, though.
	So what program was saved?
	Do you mean the development money?
	Hot Fusion, which is to mimic the sun.
	Right.
	In large vessels called Tokamaks at hundreds of millions of degrees.
	Huge salaries are paid to people who work on this program.
	Now, when they saw this, and they saw any PR in the newspaper that was leading in the direction of, hey, this group here at Los Alamos has reproduced it, this group at Texas A&M has reproduced it, this group in Russia, this group in China, this group in Japan, they didn't believe it for a minute, but they were fearful That the powers that be in the Congress would take some money from them, and Congress was about to take $25 million right out of their hide, not much for Hot Fusion, nonetheless something, kill off a lot of researchers that way, and put it into Cold Fusion.
	What they did is they held a press conference on May 1st, 1989.
	They called Pons and Fleischmann frauds and incompetents.
	And then, they pretty much had done the job, right then and there, on May 1st, 1989, just weeks after the announcement.
	Then, they finished their so-called calorimetry experiment, phase 2 calorimetry as they called it, and one lowly researcher, one man, okay, on the team, was not about, in the summer of 1989, to bring to his boss, Ronald Parker, the head of the Plasma Fusion Center at MIT, bring results that were positive, and certainly a positive looking didn't prove confusion it
	just was a positive result that's all there was one positive result
	that should have been shown as a positive result okay if they wanted to
	look at it and say well even though it looks positive we don't think it's
	That would have been fine.
	So are you saying out of a number of experiments that were done, there were a number of negative results, uh, in fact?
	No, no, no.
	This one, no, this one.
	And one, and one positive.
	No, no.
	This was the key experiment that they did.
	The most important experiment, and there was no other experiment that had any degree of importance at MIT compared to this one.
	And it was fudged.
	Period.
	End of story.
	I could defy anyone to look at what has been... Well, there's... Richard, there's got to be a conspiracy here.
	Well, there is a... Let Richard talk if he wants, but let me... One more comment.
	Well, then I'll say it.
	There's got to be a conspiracy.
	I mean, obviously, if you fudge results so that this country doesn't proceed with cold fusion when it should have been, if that's not a conspiracy, what the hell is it?
	Well, it certainly was a conspiracy to the extent that one experiment, the one at MIT, was altered.
	I mean, you can clearly see... No question.
	The lines... Alright, then fine.
	What about Caltech?
	Okay, Caltech.
	Caltech is... To show you how it's not a... See, Richard and I share similar views, okay?
	But on some views, some situations, we might have slightly different takes.
	Caltech, for example, was certainly not a conspiracy.
	It was stupidity.
	Here's what they had.
	They published in Nature Magazine an article that said, no excess heat.
	Okay?
	Fine.
	No shifting of data, no ethical issues as far as that's concerned.
	Several PhD chemists, electrochemists, looked at it and said, now wait a minute, this is very interesting data, but the conclusions you are drawing from this, Dr. Lewis, in chemistry at Caltech, are not correct.
	You really do have Excess heat here, if you'd only use the right algebra on it.
	He fumbled the algebra, believe it or not.
	He basically did not properly analyze his data.
	Now, subsequently, since Nature Magazine refused adamantly even to have letters of correspondence critiquing the Caltech work, these critiques are published in other peer-reviewed journals.
	We can get them for you.
	But they are definitely public, and it was done by a U.S.
	Navy scientist by the name of Dr. Melvin Miles of China Lake.
	So there's Caltech, completely killed off.
	Then as far as Harwell goes, that's also killed off.
	They published their data, this is the Harwell Research Facility in England, another big name at the time.
	Subsequently, Dr. Michael Mielich, also of the Navy, U.S.
	Navy, analyzed their data and found that they have excess heat.
	Now again, It wasn't as though all these people, Harwell, MIT, Caltech, got into a smoke-filled room with oil barons or anyone and said, hey, let's kill off Cold Fusion because if we don't, it's going to plunge oil stocks.
	No, no, no, no.
	It was simply like-minded people who were arrogant about their scientific position and who did not even want to open their big blue eyes.
	That's it, in a nutshell.
	Well, I have a slightly different take.
	You know, Gene and I go back a long way.
	We have a lot of mutual friends.
	My surprise tonight, by the way, involves one of our mutual friends.
	All right.
	But on this one, I clearly think that Gene is looking at the world through, if not rose-colored glasses, at least they're slightly milky.
	All right.
	Because it doesn't take people in a smoke-filled room now.
	All it takes is a phone call or an email and someone saying, you know, if you don't kind of put the kibosh on this, the funding that you want for your department next year may not go up as much.
	There are a million ways Believe your lover.
	There are a million ways for brilliant guys to make dumb, stupid mistakes in algebra.
	Actually, there are only 50 ways.
	Believe your lover.
	I mean, right now, in a totally different area, we're having this running argument on the internet regarding the so-called glass tunnels of Mars, where experts at JPL are claiming that if you stand on your head, they're sand dunes lying flat.
	That's sheer idiocy.
	Whereas, if you look at them with the shape from shading algorithms, they're clearly 3D convex objects.
	The point is that when authority figures, even in journals, put out the spin on an experiment and claim there is no result, the odds are that 99.99% of the readers are not going to go through the map.
	They're going to assume, besides an honest scientist, he's telling the truth and that's the result.
	There's an unholy... Look, let's face it.
	There's an unholy alliance between what we would have to call, across the board in virtually all topics, from Mars artifacts, Potentialities, which I strongly support.
	Cold fusion, memory of water, big bang, nonsense, and so forth.
	There's an unholy alliance between the scientific established views and journalists.
	Fine.
	I've got another question for you, Doctor, and or Richard.
	Fine.
	That was how long ago?
	Twelve years.
	Twelve years ago.
	Alright, so Ponson and Fletcher discussed it, I guess, split for Europe.
	Right.
	Twelve years have gone by.
	So where the hell is the Cold Fusion gigantic demonstration proving everybody to be a liar?
	Twelve years?
	Come on, they could have had it going by now!
	Please, let's talk about something.
	Look, right here in my kitchen in Bowen, New Hampshire, where I am, I have in my hand the proceedings of the 8th International Conference on Cold Fusion, which was held in Lerici, Italy, Last May of 2000.
	Fair.
	Right?
	Fair.
	This is printed, right on the cover, by the Italian Physical Society.
	Now, just because it's the Italian Physical Society doesn't mean it's right or wrong, okay?
	I'll just tell you.
	I'll go ahead and read it.
	Alright.
	Now, in here, the very first article is by Dr. Michael McCrubbery of SRI International.
	Remember, he was funded, and he and others, he was the primary funding, funded Cold Fusion Group, by the Electric Power Research Institute.
	That's the arm of all the electric utilities which are now frying, okay?
	They funded him and in 1994, they made a final report, a final report of the original experiments
	that said, look, we approve Pond and Feichman, period, end of story.
	Now we have further results, even better, that show through better processes
	that have been developed, thanks to Dr. Les Case in New Hampshire,
	who has a catalytic cold fusion process where it does it in high temperature gas
	and it's much simpler than the original electrochemical method.
	Right here on page seven is a beautiful curve which shows over numerous experiments
	the absolute correlation of the production of helium, the transmutation of heavy hydrogen from the water
	to helium, a straight line showing that very high correlations
	between the production of helium and the excess heat that they've got in those experiments.
	And it's irrefutable.
	Okay, fine.
	Alright, now, that's the proof of it.
	Now, let's talk about what that means, that one graph, and then I want to switch to another one, which is even more remarkable.
	What this means is that in every gallon of water, whether it's from the brook, the lake, Your snowbank, your ocean, in every gallon of water there's the equivalent of 300 gallons of gasoline.
	Period.
	That's the God's honest truth.
	And you can get it with no deadly radiation as you would have if you ever succeeded in hot fusion.
	Where's the machine, doctor?
	Not there.
	Why not?
	12 years, why not?
	Conspiracy.
	Because of, wait a minute, I'm sorry, what was that word?
	Fair question.
	Conspiracy.
	Conspiracy.
	No, no, no, no, listen.
	We have to, this is where Gene and I part company.
	Now, just a second here.
	We have, Co-Fusion has climbed up a cliff.
	I defy any, it's a heroic effort.
	I have been thrown off a cliff.
	Thrown off a cliff and climbed up a cliff, but listen, okay?
	It's not as though all the Co-Fusion researchers have been killed off, far from it.
	In fact, it's impossible to kill co-fusion.
	We have now proved conclusively the effect in increasingly robust ways.
	Now, if it had been a highly reproducible phenomenon initially, like high-temperature superconductivity was, this wall would have been over in the first week, or two weeks, or three months, you know, a month or two, clearly.
	High school students would have been doing it without question and having it succeed every single time.
	But since it was more like the transistor in 1947, that did not happen.
	And so what happened was, while the establishment was attacking, and while the, uh, evolved conspiracy was happening, yes, it wasn't a conspiracy, an evolved public conspiracy, you might say, while that was happening, Cold Fusion kept going, and it now has proof.
	It doesn't have devices.
	And in fact, we've just had a Supreme Court decision stating, to the total disgrace of the legal process, But they won't even hear a case standing out of the U.S.
	Patent Office's rejection of the patent of Dr. Mitchell Schwartz of Massachusetts, an MIT graduate, who filed a patent in 1989 on the loading of heavy hydrogen into palladium.
	And would you believe, even though the particular patent that he applied for has nothing to do with excess heat?
	Normally stated, this is just a method of helping to assess the loading of palladium by heavy hydrogen.
	Okay?
	They still rejected it because it had something to do with cold fusion.
	Alright.
	Disgraceful.
	Yes.
	Alright.
	Fine.
	Disgraceful.
	So how does a company, basically, how does a company, how does a company survive if it can't, A, make a working device that powers a car, or B... But Doctor, if you can make a...
	Working device.
	You can knock a lot of places.
	You're right.
	That will happen.
	When?
	I mean, 12 years is a long time.
	If this is a viable... You're laying it on me.
	It's a viable process.
	I am proven fine.
	So why wouldn't somebody circumvent all the BS and just build a machine and say, here.
	All right, I'll give you two real simple answers.
	Thank you for that.
	A, not enough money.
	B, some of our friends in ColdFusion didn't do the right things.
	Period.
	They screwed it up.
	In other words, with friends like these, we don't need enemies.
	I'll give you an example.
	One company, let's not mention names.
	One company clearly had a wonderful process and had tremendous excess heat.
	No question about it.
	It appeared on Good Morning America and so forth.
	They did get patents because they didn't use the awful ColdFusion word.
	They had cells that Motorola tested.
	Was this the company, uh... I saw the... Clean Energy Technology.
	Was this the one that said they could take, um, uh, nuclear waste and clean it up?
	That was an offshoot of the process.
	It was an offshoot of the process, okay.
	That's been done about by four companies.
	So they didn't present that as cold fusion, but rather as a way to clean up waste, right?
	Oh, that was another one of their... I saw that.
	Excess heat and that.
	One of the cells that Motorola tested, by the way, we have the data, we put it in our video,
	ColdFusion Fire from Water, the video about this, and they tested a cell which had zero input.
	Once it got started, they turned off the input power, and 20 watts continued for at least 11 hours and for days
	it petered off.
	20 watts?
	20 watts.
	20 watts.
	You can't miss that, it's like a hot light bulb, okay?
	It was heat, not electricity.
	The battery starter disconnected.
	That was an ongoing reaction.
	Correct.
	In other words.
	And this so-called heat after death has occurred sporadically in many co-fusion experiments.
	You like that, Art?
	Heat after death.
	I do like that.
	It's called heat after death.
	Gentlemen, hold on.
	Richard, this one's for you.
	Okay?
	Okay.
	It's only 50.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
	I do not have a dream Now that's gotta be my theme
	Good morning, everybody.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Listen here.
	Check out the buzz on my website.
	I'm gonna be talking more about it next hour.
	Somebody... I've been getting a million messages.
	Will it go on gravel?
	Yes, it will.
	We have done that on dirt as well.
	It's really cool.
	But it's really meant, you know, it's meant for the streets, like bicycle, except... It's got power!
	Anyway, Dr. Eugene Melov and Richard C. Hoagland back in a moment.
	Back now to Dr. Eugene Melov and Richard C. Hoagland.
	Dr. Melov is in New Hampshire, Richard C. Hoagland in the mountains of New Mexico.
	Electronically, we're all together.
	And, Doctor, he says it again.
	No machine.
	Where's the machine?
	Twelve years since Ponsonflashman left the shores.
	No machine yet.
	And I just want to clearly understand why not.
	All right.
	We're talking about that.
	Let me finish that one company that did receive an offer from Motorola,
	this is public record, of about $15 million for a buyout.
	That was cheap, of course. They refused.
	But that company did not reduce its patented technology, which clearly produced excess heat and sustained heat-after-death
	reactions to the 20-watt level with zero input power.
	They didn't make demonstration cells.
	The personal computer revolution in 1975 was ignited by a demonstration device computer called Altair.
	Yeah.
	And once that was out, instead of selling 800 of these, okay, as the fellow in New Mexico originally thought he would do to save his electronics company, he sold 250 a day.
	Bill Gates flew in.
	All the The smart boys and girls came flying in and took off when they saw it in their hands.
	The problem with cold fusion is this.
	There has been no commercially available demonstration cell for two reasons.
	One, it's been tough to do it.
	Two, when a demonstration cell approached significance, the companies typically that had them Decided to just sit on it and get rich other ways, right?
	That doesn't make sense to me.
	Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!
	It did happen.
	But doctor, what you just said doesn't make sense.
	They decided to sit on it and get rich some other way.
	What I meant was sit on it.
	I know what you meant by that.
	In other words, when Motorola comes to your door and says, here's $15 million, we want to buy you out 100%, okay?
	And you're smart, okay?
	You think you're smart.
	You say, well, gee, you know, I think I'm worth billions instead of just $15 million.
	Yes.
	Instead of negotiating a deal, in that particular instance, it should have been done.
	These are good people, but they didn't do the right thing, in my opinion.
	Instead of negotiating a deal and having some, of course, equity position, and then having the benefit of having a high-profile, high-tech, very good corporation that was eager to develop it with them, they didn't.
	They failed in that instance.
	Now, what's happening today with them, by the way, is good news.
	They are developing They're not the only ones by any stretch of the imagination.
	There are dozens of little companies now in co-fusion that are trying to avoid the mistakes of the past.
	They know the mistakes that have been made.
	And it's going to happen.
	And by the way, co-fusion is not, we'll talk about this later, co-fusion is by no means the only free energy source.
	Okay, but I'll talk about that.
	We'll focus on co-fusion.
	Okay, let's focus on co-fusion.
	The first part of your answer was, well, because it's hard.
	That's one thing.
	Now, the next reason... Well, what do you mean?
	It's hard.
	Hard in the sense that if you want to sell a demonstration cell, you want it to work pretty much fairly consistently.
	You're darn right.
	Right.
	That has not been possible with confusion cells.
	You mean, it's a cranky... It's a cranky process.
	Even through today, it's not possible.
	Of course!
	Now, wait, let me give you the best analogy of all.
	All right.
	Aviation.
	Yes.
	Now, at the end of the... People have short memories.
	Not you, Art, but people don't always look at these things in the way they should.
	Now, we all know that the Wright Brothers flew in 1903, and many of us, such as you and Richard and others, know that they were, even though they were flying in broad daylight, they were not accepted for five years, okay?
	They were not, they were thought of as crooks and cranks, even though they were in broad daylight flying over Huffman Prairie in Ohio, they were considered frauds and whatever.
	They didn't have it.
	The War Department wrote to them and said, prove it on paper that you have it, not we go out and see it.
	Bear in mind, the Wright Brothers had a very, the device which you want us to have in Perfusion right now, something that was really working and doing the thing.
	And still they were not believed.
	But before that, before the Wright Brothers flew in 1903, 30, 40, 50 years of flapping around with all kinds of crazy devices all over the place, some of which almost flew and others never could have flown.
	That's decades of work.
	Now, ColdFusion, by contrast, 12 years, okay?
	12 years in which numerous things have occurred beyond the original experiment.
	For example, if anyone wants to say ColdFusion is Dad and Barry, we don't believe that.
	Try this out.
	Here's page 141 of this ICC, the 8th International Conference on Co-Fusion.
	Advanced Technology Research Center of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Limited.
	They've got their name on this.
	The Iwamura, Ito, and Sakano paper.
	Here's the title.
	Nuclear products and their time dependence induced by continuous diffusion of deuterium through multilayer palladium blah blah blah blah.
	But you know what there's a picture of on page 146?
	What?
	A little pile of silicon powder that was created on the surface of an ultra-clean piece of deuterium, of plating, excuse me, ultra-clean piece of plating in a multi-million dollar laboratory, with heavy hydrogen diffusing through it, and guess what?
	What?
	Silicon, visible, the size of the Three or four times the size of a pencil lead at the end of a sharpened pencil.
	There's a picture here on page 146.
	It has anomalous isotope ratios.
	Ergo, one of the largest industrial corporations in the world, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, has one of their laboratories verifying one of the many cold fusion reactions, which should really be called modern alchemy now, that's what it is, and literally produced visible silicon and is Alright, Doctor, no disrespect, but I'm going to run over this again.
	Number one, it's hard.
	Translation, according to you, it's not reliable.
	To me, that means not viable.
	and all right doctor wrote no disrespect but i i'm gonna run over this again
	uh... number one it's hard translation
	according to you it's not reliable uh... to me that means not
	i don't i don't i don't do uh... those who have uh... developed it
	have said let's make our millions some other way They had a way to make millions of dollars, and they turned their backs on it.
	That is correct.
	You're absolutely correct.
	Well, I'm sorry, until I see a machine, until I see a working model, to me it's all just so much baloney talk.
	Okay.
	I'm sorry.
	Wait a second.
	Are we talking science?
	Are we talking technology?
	Robert Park in the American Physical Society refuses to He will attack coal fusion as an example.
	Yep, a lot of people do.
	Yeah, of course.
	Make bad names about it.
	He's been handed the data.
	But I'm just going by what you said, Doug.
	Sure, sure, sure.
	But he, now look, here's the science of technology.
	What it has come down to now is this.
	People are very impatient.
	People want new energy.
	Desperately.
	You know, we've got people getting blacked out in California.
	Exactly!
	They desperately want the energy.
	Of course they want the energy.
	But they want it right now, and I don't blame them.
	One minute, I want it now.
	In fact, our laboratory is working on not things that will, you know, create a heater in your, you know, for your room.
	We just want to get to step one, which we had hoped would have been done a long time ago.
	You know, Rick Richard says all the time, isn't it suspicious that we haven't been back to the moon in 30 plus years?
	I am right, it's suspicious.
	I agree with him.
	Isn't it?
	And to me, it's beyond suspicious that 12 years after these fellows took off for Europe, nobody has any sort of demonstration model.
	Now, that is... Well, how do you define... Let me ask you something, Arden and Richard.
	How do you define demonstration model?
	What is normally meant in science?
	A viable machine, a repeatable... Yes, that's science.
	Yes, we have repeatable processes.
	We have fully repeatable processes.
	You just said we didn't, though.
	No, no, no, no.
	We don't have processes that anyone has put into a demonstration kit and sold yet.
	We have absolutely repeatable experiments.
	They may go, let's say, 80% sometimes, or 100% repeatability, in some cases, rarely.
	But it just so happens those are being done by people who are mostly interested in the academic research.
	They are funded, okay?
	In one case, there's military money funding it.
	In one particular case, I won't mention the group, they are funded by a branch of the military.
	The reason why I'm not going to repeat who it is, is because as soon as it is known which research laboratory is being funded by the military, to a smallish extent, Probably less than a million a year.
	As soon as that's known by the enemies, they're gonna clamp down and they're gonna find a way to kill it.
	They've done it many times before.
	But you know, that's the wrap on all magic alternative energy.
	I'll use the word magic here.
	Magic alternative energy, free energy, some people call it.
	That's the wrap.
	You know, it's always bottled up by an oil company, put on a shelf, the people are killed, something happens to it, Just show me one little mark.
	Let me make a prediction.
	I want to make one prediction here.
	Sure.
	I don't think coal fusion, with all due respect to my very fine colleagues in coal fusion, it will become a technology.
	There's absolutely no doubt about it.
	But I do not believe it will be the first of the three energies.
	Well, then maybe we ought to shift our discussion.
	Richard, you wanted to say something.
	Yeah, I've been extraordinarily patient and quiet here, which is imperative.
	Let me say a couple things.
	You know, Gene's analogy with the history of flight is only good up to a point.
	Because the history of flight was building on a well-developed science of aerodynamics, fluid dynamics, etc.
	That was literally a hundred years old.
	It was a very mature science.
	It was a very immature technology and immature engineering, but it was based on a very mature science.
	Richard, I would just differ a little on that.
	I don't think the science of aerodynamics was that mature when the White Brothers flew.
	In fact, they built their own wind tunnel and had to make their own measurements.
	But that was engineering, all right?
	That was an application of things like Bernoulli.
	It wasn't that mature science.
	Well, okay.
	Well, let's say it was applied science.
	My point is that when you're dealing with coal fusion, And these other so-called free energy technologies.
	They are free.
	We have crossed the Rubicon.
	We are in complete freefall.
	We are.
	Against all known physics, period.
	Correct.
	And that's what I have been saying on this show for many years.
	You know, I have a model.
	I call it the hyperdimensional model.
	Others have other approaches to this.
	But the bottom line is that we're basically claiming That physics, as it is now known in practice, is a small subset of a much larger universe of physics that is basically unknown to most academic professionals.
	I agree with that 100%.
	Richard is 100% right.
	Alright, so from that point, Art, when you're not merely trying to apply a previously known science and make it engineering, But you're trying to pioneer the science and the engineering simultaneously to go where no one has gone before and where every time you try to go, someone says you're crazy.
	It is a very different economic milieu.
	People bet money to make money.
	They don't bet money to gain new knowledge with no foreseeable reward or benefit.
	So I think it's a little unfair to say, why can't we buy at a Kmart?
	It must not work.
	What we really should be asking is why every time you get a viable process that shows scientifically that it's really there, it really works, it's real physics, why doesn't it go the next step?
	What process are we talking about?
	I mean, we just finished saying that cold fusion...
	Is not viable because it's not reliable yet.
	Maybe someday it will be, but it's not... I think you should say, not viable yet, but you should not say, not viable in the sense that it never will be viable.
	We're not viable now.
	That's correct.
	Okay, so it's not viable now.
	That's important.
	Well, there are a lot of inventions that are not viable now, but money still flows because someone says they'll be viable someday, and I want to be on the winning team!
	I want to make money!
	Hey, I'm with you all!
	I'll be behind it a thousand percent, but I want to see it!
	Well, if you were to read the literature that Gene reads and I read, you know, from all over the world, we're talking, what, maybe a thousand, two thousand scientists?
	In every different social stratum and academic environment.
	Are you talking Cold Fusion or free energy?
	What are you talking?
	No, Cold Fusion or other forms of free energy.
	Oh, I'm just talking Cold Fusion.
	If you're talking just Cold Fusion... If you expand the pool... There are thousands of people working in Cold Fusion, hundreds, who are extremely good and sort of really devoted almost round the clock to it.
	And, you know, a very viable device was demonstrated on Good Morning America.
	I come back to this terrible word, the C-word, because I think, because it is so fragile, you know, you're pioneering a physics that's into the unknown, simultaneously with an engineering trying to capture the physics and put it in a bottle and make it work every time.
	That is such a fragile economic situation, it only takes someone saying, Let's make investors run at warp time.
	That is called science, right?
	Repeatability 100% of the time.
	That's science.
	No, no, no, no.
	Nothing is ever 100%.
	No, nothing.
	Meteorite is coming down.
	Go out in your garage and turn your key on.
	I'll tell you, you probably have one chance out of 100 that it won't start.
	Right.
	And you cannot predict when a meteorite will come down.
	Therefore, there was a huge controversy, as Richard You know, Art, at the beginning of the 19th century, how could stones possibly be falling from the sky?
	You couldn't command it.
	That was a natural phenomenon.
	It could not be commanded at will.
	But once it was understood what was going on, of course they were falling from the sky.
	Well, you could go to space if you had the ability and get bombs and throw them at Earth reliably.
	Sure.
	If we didn't then, though, of course.
	Have you ever seen those films of Robert Goddard's early experiments, Art?
	You know, there was a whole song by Tom Lehrer.
	I have, yes I have.
	Remember Tom Lehrer at MIT?
	You know, something about Werner Von Braun, he sends his rockets up, and who knows where they come down.
	It's not rocket stuff, because there they come down.
	I don't mean to be too rough on any of you.
	It's just that I've had years and years and years of people preaching this free energy thing to me, and for years and years and years, I've only said one thing.
	Fine.
	If you don't have a big model, show me a little free energy toy.
	I don't care.
	Anything.
	Bring it here.
	That'll happen.
	It never has happened yet.
	It's going to happen.
	Well, good.
	You know the really good news?
	Let me tell you the really good news.
	Here's the logical framework, which I think Richard and you will both agree with.
	Postulate that there is new physics.
	Okay?
	For the sake of argument.
	Sure.
	There is new physics.
	Okay.
	In other words, lurking behind the textbooks, there are things in those textbooks that are not complete.
	I agree.
	They work in a certain regime.
	But there are things that are just dead wrong.
	And some of them, exactly, some of the physics that's in the textbooks is dead wrong.
	In our own laboratory we've proved that in a number of areas.
	So therefore, given that Mother Nature is doing those things, what we have in the situation in the world today is this.
	We have lots of people on a variety of fronts.
	Cold fusion is just one subset.
	We have people working on electromagnetic anomalous motors.
	We have people working on thermodynamic anomalies, etc., etc.
	I know.
	Which you'll hear more about in our magazine in the coming... Oh, look, they even have shows.
	They had one in Denver not long ago, where everybody with their little machine came out and did demonstrations, and nobody would open up their little machines.
	But what I'm telling you, Art, is this.
	There are a lot of crazy people doing it, and I can assure you there are a lot of them who don't have anything.
	They come into our, they call us up and they say, oh I've got this, this and this and this.
	And they come to the lab and we test it out at New Energy Research Lab here in New Hampshire
	and we find, I'm sorry gentlemen, you don't have what you say you have.
	You've just made a mistake and they get very upset or whatever.
	I know.
	There are a lot of crazy people like that, sometimes very well meaning but wrong.
	But mixed in with that there are gems.
	There are working things that are beginning to, we are seeing the glimmerings of the strong
	possibility of life.
	All right, we've got a break coming up.
	Maybe when we come back from the break, we can talk about the things that are working.
	Sure.
	Can you do that?
	Let's do it.
	I want to introduce Arthur Clarke.
	All right, all right.
	We'll do that then.
	And Buzz Aldrin and their conversation.
	All right.
	Oh, really?
	All right.
	We'll do that when we get back.
	Buzz Aldrin, and then we will get back to what machines do work.
	I'm intensely interested in that.
	And again, folks, I don't mean to be down on anybody.
	It's just I've been waiting and saying this for years, and still the machines do not come.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Line is open at 1775-727-1295.
	And to call out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Mind.
	Oh boy, here we go again.
	My microphone is not working, folks.
	Here we go again, so...
	Just like in Armageddon, I'm going to beat on this thing until it works, I think.
	Hello, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
	It's really an interesting night.
	Dr. Eugene Malov is here.
	We're talking about free energy.
	I guess that's what we're talking about, free energy.
	Sure, really.
	It essentially is free if it's from water, right?
	Richard C. Hoagland, and they'll both be back in a moment.
	Also, I want you to go to my website and look at the buzz.
	It's the first item, the first item in the What's New section.
	It is absolutely awesome.
	In the next half hour, I'll be giving you specific details on it.
	That's the buzz on my website now.
	Under what's new, first item, www.artbell.com.
	Ramona, by the way, somebody asked on the fast blast, who is she?
	In case you've never seen her before, that is my wife.
	We'll be right back.
	Alright, let's talk a little bit about Mars and Sir Arthur C. Clarke and Richard promised
	me some kind of surprise.
	Here's Richard and Dr. Malov, once again.
	Gentlemen?
	Well, this is actually not a diversion from the conversation we've been having for the last few minutes.
	In that meeting that Arthur had with Buzz Aldrin a couple of weeks ago in Sri Lanka, where they had the conversation, and Arthur said basically the following, he said, I'm fairly convinced that we have discovered life on Mars.
	And then he said, there are some incredible photographs from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, which to me are pretty convincing of evidence of large forms of life on Mars.
	Have a look at them.
	I don't see any other interpretation.
	Well, what people don't know, because we haven't kind of gotten around to telling them, is that Aldrin did not comment, but he responded by referring to another remarkable topic, the subject of so-called zero-point or free energy.
	by some physicists to be a powerful new energy source that exists in the vacuum of space.
	Aldrin said in that same conversation, as reported by Andrew Chaikin at Space.com,
	quote, to put this into perspective where Arthur and I might agree,
	it may take 200, 300, or 400 years, but it's going to take zero-point energy,
	i.e. free energy, Art, to get us to Alpha Centauri.
	I'm sure that's true.
	Turning to Clark, he added, correct.
	Now, Gene can tell you that it's been a kind of a quiet but unsung partnership
	between Infinite Energy and Gene Maloff, and this effort to get free energy or hyperdimensional
	energy, whatever term you want to put it to,
	accepted that Arthur Clark has been a stalwart supporter In fact, even a financial supporter of some key critical experiments.
	And he has put his reputation on the line there much more visibly Until most recently in terms of Mars, then in terms of the subjects that I'm kind of interested in.
	And it's that background of Arthur as a visionary, as someone who has attested to that this is real.
	Cold fusion is a real scientific fact, not a fiction.
	But we're having this conversation tonight because if Arthur is now suddenly saying there's life on Mars, he's been saying for several years There's energy in space that is untapped, that defies the current laws of physics, and it's only a matter of time until we figure out how.
	And it's a kissing cousin to the kind of real space drives that will make the kind of space tourism we were talking about at the top of the show absolutely derrigare.
	Gene?
	I fully agree.
	Arthur, I call him Arthur because we have a lot of correspondence on email and phone calls, He has supported our efforts at Infinite Energy Magazine.
	He even gave some of the first money that was required to really get it going in a big way in 1997.
	We thank him for that.
	But mainly his significant thrust, as Richard says, is to be a voice, a stalwart voice against the opposition.
	He does not deal, as we have to some time in the trenches, with polemics, okay?
	He merely With the grandeur of his persona, much deserved, is allowed to on occasion write in Science Magazine or write an essay in Nature or something like that.
	And he writes affirmatively for Cold Fusion and Free Energy.
	He does not blink.
	They do not edit him out.
	The words are there.
	They never, of course, comment on those things.
	In other words, even though he says those things, they don't turn around with their
	editorial policy and change it.
	But lots of people see it.
	And Arthur, let's face it, is in contact with many people.
	He knows what's going on.
	In fact, Buzz Aldrin knows what's going on.
	Buzz Aldrin went to the 5th International Conference on Cold Fusion in Monte Carlo.
	So these people know what's going on.
	They know that things are happening, that they will happen, and that the kind of space
	propulsion that we have today is useful up to a point, but it's going to get us nowhere
	as far as the solar system and certainly not the stars.
	I personally believe that in the coming year, approximately, enough new experimental evidence of other forms of free energy will emerge that there will, at that point, not much longer than a year from now, possibly a lot sooner, There will be devices on the market that will be, A, demonstrations of the principles.
	Definitely show there is free energy in space, okay?
	And then it will be a horse race, a rather remarkable race after that point to develop the new energy sources.
	And it will probably not, there will probably also be cold fusion devices, by the way, on the market in terms of demonstration kits.
	But these will not be, in my opinion, as powerfully compelling, in a way, as some of the more radical things that I foresee happening.
	Gentlemen, some of what's on the horizon, in free energy, zero point, whatever you want to call it, does any of this, in your opinions, collectively, stem from the work of Tesla?
	Yes, in some cases.
	Absolutely.
	Tesla, and many other people, the literature is very rich with With inventors, Tesla was a brilliant mind, okay?
	And he made speculations about thermodynamics, incompleteness of thermodynamics, for example, that ran completely counter to what the self-satisfied smug people today who say, the second law is a barrier, blah blah blah blah blah blah.
	Textbook chapter A, B, and C says it can't be done.
	Tesla was far ahead of them.
	In 1900, he wrote an essay for Century Magazine in which he showed his contempt for the so-called fixed science of thermodynamics.
	He also had contempt for the so-called fixed science of electromagnetism.
	Our subjects are incomplete.
	Doctor, let's not go back to cold fusion.
	We've covered that.
	Let's instead have you name, if you would, What do you think will be the first emerging device that will practically demonstrate any sort of what we laughingly, I guess, call, or not so laughingly, free energy?
	All right.
	First of all, I don't think it will be a device.
	I think it will be something more profound than that.
	Okay.
	Okay?
	Frankly.
	I can't spell out the details right at this minute, and forgive me if you don't mind.
	You'll see it coming real soon.
	I'm clearly not interested in just selling magazines.
	That's not my intent here.
	But I am going to inform your audience that in the next issue of our magazine, which should be coming out in May, there will be some very concrete experiments revealed.
	Okay?
	That are indicative.
	Very indicative.
	Very simple to do experiments, by the way.
	Very indicative of I have to go beyond indicative.
	I don't want to mention it in words this way.
	We'll essentially prove that there is an energetic aether.
	All right?
	An energetic aether.
	In other words, there's power available from... Right.
	We will have proof of that.
	There's power available from the air.
	From aether.
	From the aether.
	Let's put it that way.
	Okay.
	And these experiments are incontrovertible.
	That sounds Tesla-like.
	It's very minimal.
	It is.
	Well, let us venture.
	It's a complex story, I can tell you that.
	The experiments are simple.
	They're bulletproof.
	They haven't been properly done in the past.
	It will be seen shortly.
	I don't want to make people wait too long.
	That's why we're going to be publishing this material in May.
	Mid to late May.
	In your magazine.
	In magazine.
	In the infinite energy, there's absolutely no doubt about these experiments.
	Alright.
	And that is, by the way, just the beginning, the tip of the iceberg of more experiments
	that will be revealed.
	Well, I hope both of you gentlemen understand that over the years, I have had some pretty
	high profile people come on my program and announce, we've got it.
	I tell you, we've got it.
	Let me be clear, because we do not want to create any misimpression at all here.
	Okay?
	Okay.
	I am not saying at all that a free energy device will be announced in our magazine next month.
	Not in May.
	I'm not saying that.
	Okay?
	In other words, it's not going to run your house or anything.
	It's not going to spin wheels or anything.
	Okay?
	Okay.
	But it will be so irrefutable by the processes demonstrated in the concrete experiment, it will be so irrefutable that there will be no choice but to get on the wagon and say, look, clearly there is a profound energy source in space.
	There won't be any choice, okay?
	For those who do the experiments, now, obviously, I am not predicting the scientific establishment caving in under any circumstances, but I am telling you, my good friends, that when you properly do some rather simple experiments, okay, when you do them, you see the genie.
	He's there.
	He's been here for a hell of a long time, and he is ready to come out.
	Art, do you remember on your show, however many times I have said, That about a hundred years ago, in the heyday of Maxwell and those other giants of classical physics of the 19th century, we somehow took a wrong turn.
	Yes.
	And we went in the wrong direction.
	Of course.
	And it wound up being a box canyon with no exit.
	Yes.
	What these experiments are going to do is demonstrate that that statement is absolutely right.
	That if the ether experiments had been pursued, if the implications of the early works And all its glory and grandeur for opening up literally multiple dimensions of energy and possibility have been pursued.
	We will be living on a very different world tonight.
	You know, it sounds so good, but let me lay on you what I see happening today.
	I see rolling blackouts all the way up and down the president of California, millions of people without power in California, threatening millions of people out of power in New York City this coming summer.
	This summer it's all going to get worse, Fred, God knows where, maybe all across the nation.
	Rolling blackouts.
	And what do I see the politicians doing?
	Not just this one, but past politicians as well.
	We do have A few technologies that, at the margins, would kill the blackouts.
	We've got solar power, we've got wind power, we've got wave power, we've got geothermal power, and when the blackouts came, all I saw were coal trucks heaped up with coal, and they're saying, that's what we should be doing, we should be drilling elsewhere and getting more oil.
	Not one word about existing alternative power, much less what you're all talking about.
	Don't confuse vision with pragmatic greed.
	They're all involved here, whether it's solar panels, we can't even get solar panels up.
	I love greed.
	You know what greed is going to do?
	Greed is good, isn't that what they said?
	You know what greed has got us in the box we're in?
	It's short-term pragmatism and long-term stupidity.
	Greed is good, because I'll tell you how greed is going to work.
	Government has no greed.
	Government has power.
	Okay?
	And that's what's wrong, by the way.
	They have so much power and money that they can afford to do stupid things like ignore cold fusion.
	Right?
	But when capitalists and entrepreneurs see enough, they haven't seen enough yet, apparently.
	don't blame of course you should free when they have enough when they
	have the out there demonstration of the personal computer equivalent
	at nineteen seventy five a raging free energy revolution will take off because money
	and entrepreneurship do the deep
	government research programs manhattan style and so forth are going nowhere
	it's going nowhere in nasa it's going nowhere in uh... it is a talk about confusion program
	it's going to go a lot of places when entrepreneurs and capital
	and venture capitalists put their money into the fight is that they can
	deal with and talk to her and i have a As this program proceeds, I can read computer messages sent to me instantly from listeners, and I'm just going to give you Jack in Kentucky.
	Jack in Kentucky just said, with respect to what you just said, Doctor, Art, you got ripped off.
	They aren't giving you anything except buy the book, right?
	Buy the magazine.
	Oh, come on.
	You know something?
	Let me respond to this guy in Kentucky.
	Sure.
	Okay?
	I don't make a big salary, my friend.
	I'm making a salary that is what I made in 1991 and I consider that large.
	Okay?
	Okay.
	Okay?
	For some years, while we were trying to get this magazine off, we are in 42 countries, but we only have several thousand readers, so we do not make a profit on this magazine.
	It has been required that benefactors and investors help it along.
	The point is, of course we want the message out, dear man in Kentucky, Of course we want people to read our message.
	Why the hell would you have a magazine or a radio program for that matter?
	But we're certainly not on Easy Street, and frankly, I'd rather have zero salary and have Cold Fusion and New Energy work, than to have a large salary and have it not work.
	So that's what I say to that gentleman.
	I'd rather depend on greed.
	I do depend on greed.
	The problem with Cold Fusion is... No, he's complaining about you're not giving any You did a big build-up, and then you didn't give us any.
	Oh, sure.
	He wants the machine.
	This is the real thing.
	This is just like Park on the American physical side.
	The same echo.
	Show us the car that works, okay?
	Yes.
	Right.
	The same thing could have been said of the Wright Brothers.
	And, in fact, it was.
	After the astronomer Newman.
	Well, they let him do it.
	I mean, they flew.
	After Newcomb.
	I'm sorry.
	After Simon Newcomb, when he finally admitted that they were flying, even though he had said it would take a million years for them to ever learn how to fly, if ever.
	Once he agreed that they had flown five years after they had done it, he finally, he said, oh, well, they'll never have a passenger.
	Same kind of crapola.
	In other words, I might... It's called moving the goalposts.
	I might believe, yeah, the goalposts keep moving.
	I might believe that the data is real, but where is the car?
	And then after the car, oh, now that you have a car, you'll never, of course, power the grip or anything.
	It was one of the things that has to happen before you can go and buy your gadget at Kmart.
	You know, you have to understand how the whole social dynamic of this process works.
	Let's go back to what I said before.
	This is the pioneering of a totally new physics to this generation of physicists.
	Exactly.
	It was a known physics beginning to be explored a hundred years ago, and then we took a right-hand turn.
	We wound up down the end of this box canyon with enormous amounts of oil, spent enormous numbers of generators, Pursuing enormous numbers of consumers with failing power and grid systems and rolling blackouts.
	We did something wrong.
	You know, I have a question now.
	I mean, do the two of you understand what I'm saying?
	When we've got the blackouts now, they're real as the darkness.
	And we can't, Richard, if we can't get solar or wind power introduced, how do we get something?
	That will happen.
	When you have consumers angry and mad and furious.
	Oh, you've got that.
	And realize, well, they're just beginning to get there.
	They're not desperate yet.
	Oh, you need to travel west, young man.
	There's some pretty ticked off people in California.
	There's businesses that are getting ready to leave.
	I mean, there have been for ten years, because I used to drive through there, spinning windmills in Altamont Pass.
	Huge windmill farms generating wind power from the Pacific, you know, trade winds.
	Oh yeah, sure, I've seen them.
	Okay.
	But the consumer has been manipulated by greedy power people and oil companies and that incredible, bizarre deregulation thing they did in California.
	Yes.
	And they're now in their Boxer Canyon.
	Alright, we've got to hold it there.
	Gentlemen, hold it, hold it, hold it everybody.
	Are you good to go for another hour?
	Absolutely.
	Of course.
	All right.
	Dr. Melov, Richard Hoagland, hold on.
	I guess my point is, if we can't even get a mention of alternative methods that exist right now, when we're having people in the dark, then how do we get to the exotic stuff?
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
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	Good morning, everybody.
	If you'll hold on just one moment.
	I'm called your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	It certainly is.
	Good morning everybody.
	If you'll hold on just one moment.
	Details on the buzz coming right up.
	That's some rumble, huh?
	Some bars.
	Let me give the number one more time.
	I think it got thunderclapped out.
	1-800-522-8863, beginning at 6.30 a.m.
	Pacific Time.
	All right, back now to Dr. Eugene Malov and Richard Sealdman.
	Gentlemen, welcome back.
	You know, you said at the top of the hour, or just before the news, you asked the question, what is it going to take?
	You know, there's angry consumers, there's blackouts, you know, and conventional, I can use that term, alternative power, is not making the grade.
	It's not even being... We're supposed to have leaders, Richard.
	Our politicians are supposed to provide leadership.
	To me, that means the future.
	Look ahead.
	Be visionary.
	Do something, dammit.
	Don't just talk about coal and oil.
	I know that's the short-term solution.
	But we need something now to begin building toward the future.
	And if they won't even talk about what we already have developed, and you can go down to Kmart and buy, then how are we going to get to something even more exotic?
	I'm depressed about it.
	Well, but you can't quite go down to Kmart.
	You spent a lot of money on your system.
	So did you.
	Before we left Placidus, we spent a lot of money on our system.
	That's right.
	I agree.
	People are not in that position.
	Alternative power is still Richard, we're about to come out with an affordable one.
	I'm serious about that.
	want to be able to do because they can only afford to do that
	basically go to the wall with the switch at the right to come off that's right
	i'm glad that is change
	individual alternative power units will remain the the the preview of
	he select few were about another than a rigid we're about to come out of
	with an affordable uh... i'm serious about that something uh... a hundred-watt
	that uh... panel an inverter three uh... lead acid battery
	sealed lead acid batteries and it's going to be enough to power up but you know
	appliances in the house We're going to do that because nobody else is doing it.
	It really makes me angry.
	And our 100 watts, honestly, 100 watts is really not enough, so when you multiply that by what you really need, I'll tell you what you need.
	Well, you put in more panels.
	You just add more panels.
	Well, yeah, but it gets expensive.
	We have, right here in New Hampshire, a 5,000-watt backup generator for our home.
	Okay.
	Right.
	And tell you our experience.
	Right.
	It's a Coleman backup generator.
	That's a small one, doctor.
	I've got 11 kilowatts here.
	Okay, fine.
	But I'll tell you, you were just talking about a 100 watt backup system with a solar panel.
	You need 50 of those, of course, to even equal approximately the 5,000 watt.
	What?
	Now, the 5,000 watt Coleman with gasoline is, of course, on demand.
	What, doctor?
	Uh, what you can do is use it for emergencies.
	In other words, you've got a 100 watt panel up there that's charging three batteries that hold 200 amps, amp hours apiece.
	That's a serious amount of power for at least a period of time.
	And if they turn out your lights and turn off your power, then you can use it.
	I think triple charge for a few hours.
	But a normal home is how many kilowatts?
	If you try to even live a normal life with a 5000 watt generator, you're fine.
	You can't.
	If you have some lights on and then you put on the TV and God forbid you put on the Let me turn the conversation a little bit because you asked a key question.
	What's it going to take to change it?
	That was the intent of my question.
	And what it is going to take is what you and I and Gene are well versed in doing, which is television.
	Commercial broadcast cable satellite television When programs are begun to begin to lay out
	the real options for people and the stunning breakthroughs and
	Knock down the myth that it's impossible Because the laws of physics won't permit it
	Then you will begin to see entrepreneurship to fill these gaps in the public policy discussion
	There is no leadership at the political level. It's so obvious.
	So that puts us back in the area of the gene, of course, and I discuss a lot, which is the private sector
	Why does the private sector not move vigorously ahead in these alternative areas?
	Richard, they don't think they can make money!
	Richard and Art, I'm sorry, I have to disagree on this point.
	The private sector, right at the moment, is almost the sole supporter of, as an example, clofusion, and certainly all the other weird energies, okay?
	Unless someone is claiming that the Black Project community as it locked up and saved which may have some extent
	of R&D over the years that we simply don't know about.
	Right.
	They are pretty confident they are brain dead.
	We have proof they are brain dead.
	Because we found one of these characters running around and we proved he was brain dead.
	The basic bottom line is this, private entrepreneurs need to feel, see and smell the free energy
	And it's not going to come just by technical papers and conferences.
	Those are fine and wonderful.
	It's going to come by demonstration devices, and then prototypes, and then the rest will be history.
	Look at the personal computer revolution.
	That is the prototype... Oh, you sound like me now.
	You're absolutely right.
	That is the prototype of the conversation two hours ago, which is, why don't we have the prototypes team?
	And my answer is, you're not.
	You're going to have a conspiracy to keep us from ever having the prototypes, unless there's a political breakthrough.
	And I bolster that by saying, I mean, here we are with an honest-to-God crisis in power, and no matter how you believe the crisis is generated, I don't care, there's a crisis, lights are going out, and we can't even get our leadership to mention other methods of power, existing ones.
	So I am Let us talk a little bit about this political issue, okay?
	We have had, we in the co-fusion field are, I would have to say, experts on what can happen over a 12-year period of time when numerous scientists, some of whom work in the government and are working on positive co-fusion devices and so forth, and positive proof of this.
	What can happen when they attempt to just get heard, shall we say, by the head of the Department of Energy, By the President's advisors and so forth.
	Now, we are now in the fourth administration during which co-fusion has been an issue.
	This is just co-fusion, forget the other issues.
	Right.
	The first administration, not the President's fault at all, it was the con job of the academic scientist Glenn Seaborg, may he rest in peace, went into President Bush's office on April 14th, this is record, he wrote it down, okay, he boasted about it.
	He went in, before any experiments had been done in close fusion by anybody to verify or reject it, and told President Bush, you know, it's not fusion.
	Okay?
	And they said, well, let's have an investigation anyway, because it was obviously a big slap in the press, and they did the investigation, and the kangaroo court occurred, and then there was a Department of Energy report, and to get that report turned around and to be re-investigated based on new data has been impossible.
	The Clinton Administration, including Gore and Clinton, both passed the buck.
	I received a call from the White House in February 2000, thanks to Sir Arthur C. Clarke.
	They asked me to write an 8,500-word memorandum to the President, which I did.
	It's posted on our website.
	And the President did not respond.
	I did receive, on January 24, 2001, a thank-you note, which he had written.
	He was President in the last few days of office, January 18th, thanking me for the memorandum.
	Nothing whatsoever was done.
	I have resubmitted the same thing with a cover letter to President Bush, which went out on March 20th, to Ari Fleischer, and to, uh, because it's the Communications Office, and President Bush.
	We have the memorandum, we shall see what will happen.
	I asked for only one single thing.
	One, no money, just one thing.
	What?
	Will you please, and that's all you have to do, Mr. President, is to announce that you're interested in the topic, and that you will investigate it.
	Now, Art, and Richard, please.
	Is that too much to ask for the President of the United States after 12 years?
	You're talking about a guy who won't even say he's interested in solar power, or wind power, or ocean power, or thermal power, or... But Clinton and Gore... Mr. Earth and the Balance Gore, let's put it this way.
	He was the one who was supposed to know everything about everything.
	Well, he didn't.
	In fact, when the Coal Fusion people approached him, courtesy of Vice President of Apple Computer Corporation, who was briefed on the topic, and then went to his buddy, Gore, and said, Hey, Vice President, would you please take a briefing from the Coal Fusion people?
	Guess what Al Gore said?
	He said, No.
	It's too complex.
	It's too controversial.
	Give it to the Science Advisor, i.e., 13.
	Neither political party, frankly, has done anything, and as for... Wait, wait, wait.
	There was one positive man running for president in this last election, several of them, who did reach one interesting hearing.
	Who did?
	His name was John McCain.
	Yes, he did.
	McCain was the first person, I agree, was the very first person who, upon being asked for whether or not they would accept a briefing on coal fusion, and right here in Bow, New Hampshire, when I asked McCain, Well, I will make the following recommendation.
	that he had, and many people have heard it, it's on tape, he said, yes I will, okay, and
	he sent his top advisor one week later to my office, this rush kind of thing, but he
	did get the information, there was subsequent discussion with another advisor, and then
	it sort of ended.
	Well McCain would have been my choice for president, but he didn't win.
	Well I will make the following recommendation.
	John McCain holds a very pivotal position in Washington, in fact in some ways it's probably
	more interesting than if he were president.
	He is chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, which oversees not only energy, but also NASA.
	When we were able to get John McCain to say a few words about what would happen to NASA if they could be proved to have withheld data from the American people last year, suddenly Dr. Malin coughed up 60 A thousand frames of images that have been sitting in a drawer somewhere for two years.
	I recommend, Gene, that you go back to Senator McCain, who is a senator who is now on the hot seat with campaign finance reform and planning of McCain-Feingold, and you get his people to seriously tackle this issue as a long-term campaign to build his case For why he should be president in the next election cycle, which you know, that's where his eye is focused.
	McCain is a straight shooter, he has been a man of his word, and we got remarkable results out of a system that was politically insulated totally.
	Well, let us see.
	Look, we have 60,000 images, and they are stunning.
	One of them, the one Clark, that you referred to earlier, that I looked at, when Arthur C. Clark emailed me the coordinates of that frame, I think you know what we're talking about.
	It's 82 degrees south latitude.
	What are we talking about?
	It's those large oyster so-called bushes.
	They look like it's on a 2.8 kilometer strip, 20 kilometers long, but up at the top of the strip, okay, you see, you should link this on your website, Art, you see what looks like Very large organic forms.
	Richard, do you have it on your website?
	We're in the process of preparing a report.
	It looks extraordinary, and I don't know what it is, but I don't know either.
	All right, the suggestion is, right, that it's some kind of shrubbery, that it's some kind of growing something.
	Is that true?
	Yes, it looks that way.
	But I'm not absolutely sure.
	All I can say is, just like with the faece on Mars and many other things that Richard has talked about and others have talked about, absolutely without question, In the final year, or whatever it is, Richard knows the answer, of the remaining orientation fuel on this spacecraft that's orbiting Mars, we must get images of many strange objects, including that, on the surface.
	Now, Arthur C. Clarke made a comment, which Richard has nicely superimposed on one of the glass tunnels.
	What do you think, Dr. Melam, what do you think of the glass tunnel?
	I don't believe it's sand dunes.
	I think these people who have attacked Arthur C. Clarke on this subject.
	You mean NASA, right?
	Richard knows who they are.
	You mean NASA, right?
	Yes.
	And affiliates of NASA and people who are on the take with money from various other unnamed sources, shall we say.
	On the take might be a little strong.
	You mean, are good... No, they are on the take.
	They're on the take.
	You mean research money, right?
	Research money from... Okay, well let's... Alright, alright.
	They're doing research money, alright.
	Research money is being put into certain individuals.
	That's not the answer.
	Who have a big mouth against someone who just said, like Clark, who has been much more often right than wrong.
	I sure do.
	Who said, hey, I'm 95% convinced this is a large form, or that there are large forms of life on Mars.
	And he might say, for all I know, in the coming weeks or months, we really must look closer at some of the artificial seeming images on Mars.
	There are huge numbers of them.
	It's not just the face.
	Dr. Mellon, do me a favor.
	I know that Sir Arthur is considering coming on this program.
	I know he's thinking about it.
	You communicate with him.
	Please try and encourage him to do so.
	I know how he likes to do things.
	I will encourage that.
	We've already gone the official path.
	Well, I'm thinking about it.
	I promise you on the air, I promise you I will do this.
	I will write you a note tomorrow, which I would say that I recommend that you do go on the Alex Jones Show.
	Expound on all of your views about anything you wish.
	My suggestion, of course, goes without saying, is that he should be the sole guest at that point.
	I want to get his view.
	I mean, what he's saying right now has implications for the entire human race.
	Of course.
	For the entire planet.
	He's a well-respected man with a proven track record, and I think he deserves... You know, yelling from Sri Lanka, it gets heard, but to hear Arthur C. Clarke say it, I think would be...
	I do.
	I will urge him, strongest terms, to go on your program ASAP.
	Thank you.
	When we come back after the break at the bottom of the hour, I want to get to the surprise.
	The surprise is directly connected to what Arthur has said in the last few weeks, to what Gene has now said in the last few minutes regarding these extraordinary photographs, and what Clark says is probably there.
	And today, not only did Mir come down, but something else went up.
	And there is a very important announcement I have to make, and a surprise guest that I'm going to bring on, who's an old friend of Gene's and mine, who you didn't know we had in Minnesota.
	I had no idea.
	You're kidding.
	Nope.
	You're kidding.
	He's right here.
	And when we come back at the bottom of the hour, I will put him on, and we will have an interesting few-minute conversation about where Where the breakthroughs are now.
	Only on radio, only on radio can you do this, Richard.
	Television would never allow you to do this.
	That's why I love radio.
	They are so scripted, and you know, everything is rehearsed and scripted, and you could never in a million years do this.
	But, I guess you can surprise me.
	Well, a couple of weeks ago, or the last time I was on, I talked about there was a surprise building.
	It turns out that I'm going to be able to announce tonight what it is, and when it's going to take place, and who's involved.
	And what it's going to mean for this entire conversation.
	And so we'll do that.
	But the thing that strikes me about Arthur is that Arthur is not a dumb guy.
	Oh, no.
	Arthur, I've known Arthur for thirty-some years.
	Well, I'll bet you they'll start to say, Arthur's getting too old.
	Well, they aren't getting too old.
	And he's saying things he ought not be saying now.
	That's exactly what Gene was alluding to in a very gentlemanly fashion.
	There are some people who should know better.
	Who are trying to attack Arthur Clarke is some senile, doddering idiot.
	Yep.
	There you go.
	Might as well come out and say it.
	Well, he's not.
	Richard and Eugene, hold on.
	We'll be right back.
	This is Coast to Coast AM, roaring through the nighttime.
	Whatever surprise is coming is coming next.
	Stay right there.
	First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	The fire guard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	The fire guard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	And to reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Powell on the Premier Radio Network.
	It certainly is.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Dr. Eugene Malov and Richard C. Hoaglander here, and we've got some kind of surprise directly ahead, so let's not wait.
	And with a clap of the thunder, here we go.
	Dr. Eugene Malov, Richard C. Hoaglander, and I don't know what awaits out there.
	Something.
	Gentlemen, you're back on.
	I'm enjoying this, Art.
	I know you are.
	It's only with your friends you can do this.
	You know, you asked the question again before, what is so difficult, why does it take so long, if it's real, to go to something we can pick up at Kmart?
	Well, I haven't had as much experience in the free energy or hyperdimensional field or co-fusion at the hands-on level as Gene has, but I can tell you I have spent something like Twenty years, a generation, trying to get people to see the reality of something which is frankly a lot less far out than energy from nowhere, energy from space, from zero point or whatever.
	And that is the concept of an ancient civilization on a nearby world.
	Oh, you bet.
	And the uphill climb we have had to get people to purely begin to look at the data.
	I mean, when someone with the prestige and awesome Well, today we reached a new height on that climb.
	As Sir Arthur Clarke says, there's life on Mars and immediately is attacked by NASA and
	its lackeys.
	As some doddering old fool, you know that you are climbing a very steep mountain.
	Agreed.
	Well, today we reached a new height on that climb.
	About a year ago, I was approached by an independent production company which had a contract with
	a major network and they wanted to know if I would be interested in doing a full hour
	program on in essence the monuments of Mars.
	And I said, sure.
	And like so many other of these things that have come and gone, I thought that, well, nothing will come of this.
	I have spent the entire day today with a television crew here at Enterprise.
	I mean, not at Albuquerque.
	The day began very early this morning, Art, and I have not had a nap.
	I am still going strong.
	They have been all over the country filming people like Tom Van Flandern, Kinsea, Greg Molinar, and many other valued colleagues and members and associates and acquaintances of Enterprise and the pursuit of the reality of the monuments of Mars.
	And I was authorized this afternoon to announce this evening on your show that this program is going to run on PAX TV on April 27th.
	That's a Friday evening.
	What TV?
	PAX TV, which is owned partially by the NBC television network.
	Oh.
	And it is going to be part of a series called Encounters with the Unexplained, which is hosted by Jerry Orbach.
	It will deal solely with the question of, is there something remarkable and artificial on the planet Mars?
	And the title of the show is, What is Really on Mars?
	Now, this subject has been dealt with as a snippet, as a soundbite in various other shows.
	But it's never had a solid hour devoted to nothing.
	No, that's right.
	No, that's right.
	When is this going to run?
	This will run in three weeks.
	Wow.
	Right?
	Wow.
	The 27th of April.
	Two days after my birthday.
	They would have put it on my birthday, but the show doesn't run on my birthday, so they had to do it Friday night.
	It will then run again on Sunday night, on the 29th.
	So within two days on network television, on satellite and cable all over the world, the Monuments of Mars and all of the new stuff, including the film, the video of Arthur Clarke discussing with Buzz Aldrin, That is a remarkable statement about life on Mars.
	Well, they've got that.
	They've got that, and they've also tracked down the BBC footage from Arthur's documentary a few days ago, where he not only was talking about, you know, life on Mars, but calling up graphics from the Enterprise mission website.
	All right, Richard, I want to be clear on where we can see this.
	Is it going to actually be on NBC or no?
	No, it will be on PAX TV.
	Okay, where does a person see that?
	I've got a lot of... PAX is on your cable listing.
	It's a very big, widely well-distributed cable network.
	It's also on satellite.
	Just look in your TV Guide for the PAX TV.
	All right, I've got it all, so I'll find it.
	It is there, and believe me, you know, we will tell people well in advance.
	We've got several weeks here.
	But what they did today, what they've been doing around the country in filming, you know, they went to San Francisco and spent a whole day with Kinsey in the studio filming her exquisite modeling.
	Yeah.
	They're going to Van Planet and talking about his exploded planet hypothesis and what JPL did to the so-called cat box image.
	Okay, that's called what's on Mars?
	It's called what is really on Mars.
	What is really on Mars.
	What is really on Mars.
	That's great, that's great news.
	And Arthur will be a major player because he again has rightly come out and broken the ice And said, it's there, boys and girls.
	Just look at the pictures.
	Yeah, I want to see the statement by Arthur.
	I really want to see that.
	I'm sure a lot of people do.
	Now, one of the things that we're doing on this show, and it's possible because of a couple of people that I mentioned on the last show, you know, nobody does this alone.
	And Enterprise, if it's anything, has tried to become a meeting ground for like-minds and people who love to climb mountains with little hope of maybe reaching the top in their lifetime.
	Two people, Efren Palermo and a gal named Jill England, have done extraordinary yeoman service on something brand new in the mix of this question, is there life on Mars?
	They have been pursuing the question of the current liquid water.
	And in this show, for the first time anywhere, we're going to lay out for a global audience a stunning model For why these stains are dripping down these hillsides.
	Why they are patterned in two separate hemispherical aggregations on opposite sides of Mars.
	And I'll give everybody a big hint on how this is indirectly connected with Tom Van Flandern's model for the history of Mars.
	This is going to be one program you're going to want to tape.
	You're going to want to show it to your friends, your neighbors, you're going to want to call them up and tell them, for God's sake, get to the TV and look at this, because finally, we will have a major network hearing.
	And a whole group of people, not just the Art Bell audience, but a whole new group of mainstream viewers are going to get a chance to see what NASA has resisted them seeing for over 20 years.
	Alright, well, I just got a message from Jeff in Wichita, Kansas.
	He said, Art, PAX TV is channel 181 on Dish Network.
	I've got that.
	No sweat.
	I'll be seeing it.
	Now, here's my surprise.
	They flew Ron Nix from Las Vegas yesterday to Albuquerque to be here at Enterprise to do the show premiere.
	Ron was taping most of the morning and I did the rest of the day and into the evening.
	Ron and Gene have not talked to each other for, what, maybe a couple, three years?
	When you came to Placidus for that meeting we all had?
	Yeah, I guess so.
	And Ron has written a very important paper on the internet, posted to Enterprise, absolutely refuting the NASA claim that these glass tunnels are just sand dunes.
	So what I'd like to do is to bring him on and let him say a few words of greeting.
	By all means.
	And explain why he thinks this program could be a landmark.
	Alright.
	Ron?
	Ron?
	Hello.
	Hi Ron!
	Hello, how are you?
	It's been a while, how are you doing?
	Yes, well, I'm fine.
	I left my home over the hump from Trump and came to New Mexico for a while.
	It's probably cold down there, huh?
	It's very, very nice.
	All right, we'll say hi to you, Dr. Melloff.
	How are you doing?
	Just fine.
	Good.
	Let's hear what you have to say.
	Well, we had a fascinating day today looking at some stunning images, discussing some of those images for this upcoming program, essentially talking about Oh, sand dunes and not sand dunes.
	Golly, that one seems to be a pretty popular idea.
	Yeah, why don't you, as long as you're here, comment on that.
	I mean, that's what the critics are saying, sand dunes.
	What do you say?
	Well, absolutely not.
	If you have a sand dune, why is it along the side of a valley?
	Part of it's in the bottom and parts on the side.
	These dune trains, the dunes themselves, although it does look like some kind of a harmonic
	that has deposited these dunes along, that does exist, but the edges of those dunes,
	why are they shaped like a hook?
	One edge is bent around while the other, in some cases, is almost straight at the ends.
	I've even heard them called, and I think it was just a matter of an error actually,
	Well, safe dunes are huge, long, longitudinal dunes.
	I mean, I think that was just a mistake.
	So that's clearly not true.
	But the thing is, how many people are going to go get a geologic glossary and look up what a safe dune is?
	Word comes that it's Arabic for saber.
	So you're doing interviews, Ron, for the show What Is Really on Mars, right?
	Yes.
	I guess nobody as yet has seen the program put together.
	It's probably not finished yet.
	Oh, no.
	It's still in the interview process and they say it's going to take about four weeks to do the editing and put all these various pieces together in some coherent form.
	I mean, making a network television show is not trivial.
	Okay, Ron, you're a geologist, right?
	Yes, sir.
	All right.
	In your professional opinion then, looking at that, not sand dunes.
	In my professional opinion, those are not sand dunes.
	No, Officer Arthur C. Clarke obviously doesn't think they are either, so it'll take a program like this to blow it all wide open, and maybe that's all it'll take.
	One of the things that we're going to be able to do now that we've got this in the can is we have two different groups who have done what's called shape from shading analysis.
	That is, you take the two-dimensional picture, and you put it through an algorithm developed by Dr. Mark Carlotto, who graciously made this available.
	One group is a guy named Christopher Joseph, who's been doing some pretty neat work on this over the last few days.
	Another group was led by Cynthia and Fred Torres in California, who did a completely independent analysis and put together a pretty amazing animation, which we're going to have in the show, which as you rotate around and do aerial spins overhead and come down to the surface, you can see that these things are clearly three They're dimensional convex tubes.
	They're sticking up.
	Sure they are.
	They're not lying flat.
	And they've got glassine sides.
	They have specular reflections.
	They interact with this algorithm, the shape-shifting algorithm, in a very weird way.
	You turn the camera around and look up sun and down sun, which sand dunes would not do.
	And Arthur Clark has not seen any of this, and I'm going to surprise him in the next day or so by sending him a direct email with these as attachments So he himself can see now, with his own eyes, that his bet was right.
	These are three-dimensional, tubular forms.
	We can still have a lot of fun arguing what exactly they are.
	Well, listen, Richard, I want to say something, and that is, I said it before, and I think this is really important.
	For me, it's important.
	I've been with you now for years and years, or you would me, however you want to look at it, and you have shown me probably thousands of pictures, and a lot of times, Richard, you say, mortar, and I say, Rock.
	You say tank, and I say rock.
	But when I looked at this thing, I said, mm-mm, that's an artifact.
	That's not nature.
	That's not anything that happened artificially.
	That's something that came from life on Mars.
	That's what I said, and I don't say that easily, and I guess Arthur C. Clarke doesn't say it easily either.
	I think you're really honest up this time.
	Well, I'm glad to hear that, Art, and we're going to keep surprising you with additional bizarre, exquisite things that we have found.
	I guess there are others.
	I'm looking forward to seeing this photograph of what is being called possibly some kind of growing vegetation.
	It looks radiative and it looks, what I would call, fractalized in a way that I don't think Could be explained geologically.
	It is, of course, very large, which would let us believe normally that it was geology.
	But the way it radiates out, and then also there's another image that I've talked about with Richard in the past, an area within several craters where there's, on a white, what looks like white sand, there are very ratchety things that look like they're radiating out, and they look organic too, Well, then we may be on the edge of disclosure about Mars.
	No question about it.
	Then there's one other little thing that anybody's welcome to comment on, who wants to.
	What?
	That is now telling us they have found the lost Mars sojourner.
	Lander.
	Yeah, Lander.
	Sojourner.
	I like that word.
	On its legs.
	Now, we all know, or at least we all have been told, That resolution that good is not possible.
	How could they possibly be seeing this little thing sitting on its legs?
	Well, I think you...
	Somebody's not being honest with us.
	There's something very interesting.
	It's interesting you should bring that up because Mark, Mike Barra and I published tonight
	a new story on the Enterprise website, you know, the weird background story of the Mars
	polar lander.
	Yes.
	And if you go read that with a couple of graphics, you will see how impossible it is, at face
	value, unintended, for NEMA to have accomplished what they claim to have done, given only Dr.
	Malin's published data.
	There is a back story here.
	We are in the process, like we are with Fraser.
	We haven't dropped the Fraser thing, by the way.
	There's some new news coming on that.
	Did you get the tape I sent you?
	Not yet.
	Not yet.
	It has not arrived.
	All right.
	So who knows?
	Maybe it went somewhere.
	I will let you know when that arrives.
	We have got someone who is now...
	Having a meeting in Washington next week on background to discuss with some of the NEMA sources the actual content behind that story, what really has gone down.
	And already from one conversation, and we put this in our story on the web tonight, it appears that NEMA had potentially another source of information over and above the mail-in photographs in order for that leak to have occurred and then to have come clean with the fact that they were looking for 14 months There's more here politically than meets the eye.
	And what is critical in all of this is timing.
	I come back to this program.
	We believe that by April 27th, when this program airs network-wide and millions of people who have never heard of you or me or Gene or Ron or maybe even Arthur Clarke When they see the evidence in visual form put together by the kind of crew which is producing this program, they will be up in arms to demand from NASA what the hell is going on and why can't we get to the bottom of this.
	Well, that's what I said.
	It may be the edge of disclosure then, if it really is that hard-hitting and Arthur's lending his voice to it.
	Yep.
	Maybe, maybe finally.
	The establishment has an amazing ability to explain away almost anything they want.
	I am very happy to hear that this is one of the best pieces of news I have heard in a
	long time.
	The establishment has an amazing ability to explain away almost anything they want.
	On the other hand, pictures speak a thousand words.
	Very powerful, and maybe this will crack.
	Because when people see those glass tunnels... I know.
	They look like, I agree with you, both, they look very much like glass tunnels.
	I don't think that there's this doom explanation.
	The doom explanation makes as much sense for the glass tunnels as, you know, tritium found in co-affusion experiments.
	Well, what I'm hoping will happen is that enough people will see this program, will see the entire model of extraterrestrial presence on Mars in an ancient form, having left a stunning array of artifacts, will then the next morning With a little help from our friend here with our bell, pick up the phone or send a fax or send an email to people like John McCain and say, what the hell is going on at NASA?
	And it is that specific laser wedge of political pressure, on the pressure point that matters, where change can in fact occur.
	Alright, let's get it out again so everybody knows.
	What is really on Mars.
	That is the name of the program.
	It's going to be on April 27th, and then again on April 29th.
	On Friday night and Sunday night.
	And normally they run these things a week apart, but for some reason, when they saw the script and they saw the people that we'd involved in this, they decided to put this program essentially back-to-back and run it twice.
	Good.
	We're going to have the Cold Fusion documentary eventually.
	Say again?
	Maybe they'll even broadcast our cohesion documentation.
	The thought had crossed my mind.
	All right, gentlemen, listen.
	I want to thank both of you for being here tonight.
	You're welcome.
	Listen, take a moment before you go to sleep, go to CNN, check out Mir re-entering, coming over Fiji.
	They have some absolutely spectacular... I've been watching it with the TV on in the background.
	Pretty awesome stuff, huh?
	Awesome.
	And very, very sad.
	This is not a good day.
	This is a bad day for space because that should not have come home that way.
	All right.
	Richard, as always, thank you, my friend.
	Dr. Mellon, thank you.
	Good night, Art.
	Good night.
	Good night, Ron.
	Good night, Gene.
	Good night.
	All right.
	We're going to come back and do an hour of open lines.
	You can discuss what you have just heard.
	You can discuss anything you want.
	Lord knows there's enough to talk about out there right now.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.

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