Dr. Melvin Morse, a pediatrician and neuroscientist, reveals 15 years of research on children’s near-death experiences (NDEs), where only ~1 in 300 survive clinical death yet recall precise details like resuscitation tubes or conversations, defying coma-induced memory loss. He argues consciousness persists beyond brain function, citing fighter pilots in centrifuges and a 1907 study measuring weight loss in dying patients—half to three-quarters of an ounce—while dismissing reincarnation as invalid. Morse links NDEs to electromagnetic energy patterns, intuition, and even precognition, like mothers dreaming of infants who later die suddenly, but stops short of proving life after death, calling it a matter of faith. The discussion suggests consciousness may access external, timeless realms, altering stress responses and DNA, yet leaves the universe’s ultimate design—whether spiritual or physical—unresolved. [Automatically generated summary]
Listen, we've got Dr. Melvin Morse here about NDEs shortly.
He knows all about near-death.
He's a doctor, pediatrician, neuroscientist who spent 15 years studying NDEs of children.
You know, the innocents.
The Maggies.
So that's going to be really, really interesting.
It's one of my favorite subjects.
Should be for everybody, actually.
But first, I'm going to one more time because there are stations joining in this hour and because I just want to harp on this until you get off your duff and go over to your computer and see one of the wildest things you're ever going to see in your whole life.
It's about MRI.
And here's the deal.
A guy went out and risked his job for us.
He's a MRI technical guy.
And he made a couple of videos with sound that are just absolutely awesome.
There are two of them.
And as I said, you'll get moving video and you'll get sound.
The first shows, you can see the MRI machine and you won't see his face.
He doesn't want his face seen.
And then he's got an aluminum block.
And what he does with that aluminum block, well, he asks the question, does the aluminum block fall slower?
And it's at full speed.
Does it fall slower because of eddy currents from the magnet or does time slow down?
And then he's got a second demonstration with an eight-inch crescent wrench.
And these together, I guarantee, I guarantee, will blow your mind.
And it's nothing that I think has ever been really shown before.
So I want to thank him for risking his position to do it for us.
He is anonymous.
We will not give you his name.
And you better go see it while it's still there.
That's what I can say in case somebody gets to us.
But I got him right after the show last night, and they're mind blowers.
And it'll show you all about MRI and this giant electromagnetic field.
In fact, we'll ask Dr. Morse about electromagnetic fields as it relates to his work.
And, oh boy, might it ever happen?
So coming up in a moment is Dr. Morse.
But get to my website at www.artbell.com and be sure you watch these videos.
Capture them if you can.
They're truly one of a kind.
And we're going to be talking more about MRIs and large electromagnetic fields.
It's just sort of what I'm on to at the moment.
So it's worth seeing.
Oh, that's so appropriate for so much of what we do, isn't it?
Listen, we just sailed, we just had a record.
Keith Rowland, my webmaster, informs me, we just set a record.
Last hour, we utilized, hit a peak of 36.1 megabits downloading to you all.
That is an all-time peak for the site.
36.1 megabits of bandwidth.
That's a lot of you out there.
All right.
Dr. Melvin Morse, pediatrician, neuroscientist, who's spent 15 years studying the near-death experiences and the ease of children.
He says, I've learned the final moments of life are not frightening nor horrible.
When we die, we become fully conscious, aware of our surroundings, and experience spiritual insights we do not often have at other times in our lives.
By studying the neuroscience of the near-death experience, we learn that human beings have an underused area of the brain which is responsible for spiritual intuitions, paranormal abilities such as telepathy and remote viewing, and the power to heal not only the soul but the body as well.
As a young critical care physician, I started listening to children's stories of what it was like to die and return.
My research ultimately led to my discovery of our God spot, our biological link with an interactive universe.
I've been on your show with different substitute hosts and such as that.
I know that your listeners are really informed and really able to explore really the deepest kinds of insights that studying near-death experiences can bring us.
Oh, I started, well, I graduated from medical school in 1980, and I started in private practice of pediatrics in 1985.
But from about 1980 to 1990, I spent a good deal of time in critical care medicine, working for an air transport service out of Seattle Children's Hospital, Airlift Northwest.
That's rough work, huh?
I finally burnt out, and I think that most people that do that kind of work do.
It's very grueling.
It's tedious.
And most patients that have to be resuscitated from nearly dying unfortunately die.
Yeah, it's bad for you to have your heart stop beating art.
Now, a lot of it depends, you know, if in the operating room your heart stops beating really quickly, that's, you know, they can just put the paddles on and restart it.
But if you're talking about in the field, now the Seattle area for adults has one of the highest success rates, and I think their success rate is in the 5% or 10% range.
At Seattle Children's Hospital, where we resuscitate children from a four-state area, Idaho, Montana, Alaska, et cetera, I studied near-death experiences in children from 1985 to about the year 2000, maybe going back as far as 1975.
But over really a 15-year time period, we only came up with 26 children who survived what we would call clinical death.
So, I mean, the children that I studied were truly at the brink of death.
And, you know, there's a lot of, I know, debate in the literature.
Are these kids really near death?
Or, you know, how do you define near death, et cetera?
In our study at Seattle Children's Hospital, you had to have your heart stop beating and be resuscitated in the field in order to gain entrance into the study.
And we only found 26 children over a 15-year period that fit our criteria as truly being, you know, surviving what I call clinical death, meaning that their heart had stopped beating, the blood had stopped flowing to their brain, and yet they were still resuscitated.
I think my question is, Doctor, after your heart has stopped and the vitals have stopped, how long are you still able to detect some emanations from the brain?
Is there any possibility, doctor, it's a weird question, that somebody who has just died is in some way still able to hear or understand some bit of what's going around them, even though they have died, might they hear somebody like you say, I'm sorry he's gone?
And I think that's the main when people are profoundly comatose, you know, they still might hear little bits of conversation or they might, you know, yeah, you know, when people are described as being in profound comas, you know, there's still some brain activity and there's still something going on.
So I think, in fact, that's what most physicians think near-death experiences are.
Most physicians or medical scientists would think that a near-death experience is just that your brain comes to the point of death, but of course while you're comatose, maybe you hear little snatches of the operating room conversations.
Maybe you hear little things going on around you, little blips and blaps.
And then when you're resuscitated, your mind hates a memory gap and you hate the idea that you might have died.
And so then you create a pleasing fantasy, something that you're calling confabulation.
Well, that's the exciting thing about near-death research part: is that what you're describing has now, I think, been demonstrated beyond the doubt that when we die, we do die fully conscious.
Even if our ears aren't working properly, our eyes aren't working properly, etc.
All the evidence would indicate that when you die, you're completely conscious, you're completely aware.
In fact, you have a consciousness that extends beyond your physical body.
So I think that that's correct.
What you're saying is not a weird question at all.
This is one of the most important questions that people have for me because they, you know, I'll give you an example.
A close friend of mine, he called me up one night crying after reading my research, and I said, you know, why is this so moving to you?
And he said, well, it's because when my dad died, I was so, felt so guilty that I couldn't say goodbye to him.
You know, he hadn't really known his dad very, you know, kind of got estranged from him over the years and, you know, hadn't told him he loved him in a long time.
And he was in the intensive care unit, but his dad was profoundly comatose.
And he wanted to know, you know, could my dad hear me and, you know, and understand I was saying goodbye and that I loved him.
And sure, from a scientific standpoint, I could reassure him, absolutely.
When we die, even if we seem to be comatose, we're fully conscious and alert.
If so few are resuscitated percentage-wise, nationally, or even worldwide, it's probably even worse.
Sure.
Then would you say that most physicians, upon resuscitating a person, ask about their experiences or want to listen to their experiences, or do they think it's caca or what?
And she had a long resuscitation and ultimately went down to Salt Lake City to primary children's there and ultimately regained consciousness and is doing great today, married and has kids, et cetera.
I just happened, it was just a total coincidence, or just kind of these, you know, I just happened to be moonlighting or working actually as a resident in a clinic there in Pocatella, and she just happened to be a patient there.
And so she came in about two or three weeks after her successful resuscitation, and she looks over at me and she goes, hey, that's the doctor that the tall, thin doctor said to, thank God you're here.
And she looks at me and she goes, I saw you put a tube in my nose.
And I was just floored because, first of all, you know, now that I've told you this, Art, you watch on TV, you see if you ever see a resuscitation where they put a tube in the nose.
You know, actors don't like tubes put in their nose.
Invariably, they'll put it in their mouth.
But I just happened to have been trained to put it in their nose.
So I knew right away that wasn't something she picked up from TV or something like that.
But I'll tell you, what happened to me is when she said this to me, I actually laughed.
I giggled.
And then she immediately became very embarrassed and she wouldn't say another word to me.
And I think that that's, I think, the reaction that many physicians have.
I could have gone through my whole career and have never heard about one of these experiences.
She was nervous and follow-up, and I got her back in and sort of gently sat with her and just asked some open-ended questions like, you know, what do you remember about, you know, the time that you saw me stick a tube into my nose.
And she told me basically, blow for blow, every detail of her resuscitation.
Listen, I've seen doctors on programs like 2020 stand up and say, look, white tunnels, visions of relatives, it can be attributed to the fact that when we die, our brain dies from the outside moving inward.
But these are scientists who are not familiar with the literature.
I guess I'm saying anyone who has looked at the litter objectively, I've been on those same shows, Art, they have to look far and wide to find someone who is willing to say that kind of stuff.
That's the hardest thing for TV producers nowadays is to find a so-called skeptic.
In fact, I was on National Radio with Paul Kurtz, you know, who's head of, what is that, PsycOps?
Well, let me just give you one piece of evidence that will just tweak your imagination.
This is research now that comes from the National Warfare Institute.
So, you know, this is published in some sort of obscure aerodynamics journal.
So that's why a lot of people aren't familiar with this literature because there's little bits and pieces of it everywhere.
But here's what this guy did.
His name is Jim Winnery.
He's a flight surgeon for the National Warfare Institute.
He took fighter pilots and he put them in centrifuges and he whirled their brains at tremendous speeds to try to understand what happens to the human brain with these tremendous g-forces.
And he was able to show that as the forces became greater and greater and the blood stopped flowing in their brain, they would go through definite stages in which they would become comatose and then they would go through muscle spasms and they would have seizures.
And then listen to this.
Right at the point where the blood stops flowing in their brain, they regain consciousness.
You know, but we do know from studies like Jim Winnery's and also studies like mine out of Seattle Children's Hospital that the closer you come to death, the deeper you go in coma, that suddenly you hit a phase in which you're conscious and awake.
And these fighter pilots described the same thing as my children described in their near-death experience.
They would describe going through tunnels, floating out of their body, seeing themselves below.
So that's the one fact.
We're conscious and awake when we die.
The second fact is that about 20% of our brain apparently is hardwired to allow us to have this experience.
And again, this is not controversial.
You have people like Matthew Alpert that wrote the God area of the brain.
But the final piece of information comes to us from the world of theoretical physics.
And you know, Art, you know, I always hear so much about, you know, pseudo-physics and quantum gobbledygook and stuff like that.
So the information I'm giving you now comes right from the top theoretical physicists at the national, you know, our national theoretical physicist lab.
Yeah, you know, that's what, you know, so-called skeptics are always accusing, you know, sort of new age practitioners of indulging is.
So what I'm saying is that I'm not a theoretical physicist, but I went to the top theoretical physicists in this country to vet what I had to say, make sure that the information that I'm about to share with you now is correct.
And they said, absolutely, that the nature of the universe is that it is a timeless, spaceless place where everything that ever happened and everything that ever will happen is happening all at once.
That we are all swimming in these patterns of energy which code for everything.
So, you know, so, okay, so let me give you the three facts just real quick.
One fact, die, we're conscious, awake, we see a timeless, spaceless place where everything exists.
Number two, 20% of our brain allows us to have that experience.
Number three, the theoretical physicists tell us that such a place exists.
Well, you know, I'm not, that's not proof art, but I mean, those are three pretty solid scientific facts.
And you don't have to connect the dots very much to say, hey, wait a minute.
Well, maybe when we die, we use this area of the brain to perceive the timeless, spaceless place that the physicists are talking about.
I mean, that's not a huge stretch.
In fact, that's a better explanation than the alternative, which, you know.
I think that the God of the Bible is more, you know, that was just, you know, that's, you know, the Bible, I'm sure you are aware, was a series of books written by human beings over, you know, several hundred period of time.
And, you know, mostly is, you know, just, you know, shows what their internal spiritual life was like.
But, you know, no, no, I don't think that there's a, you know, that God is some sort of male being that is, you know, watching our every moves or anything like that.
But you remember when the person was in the hot seat, Jodi was in the hot seat, and in the end, after a dramatic exchange, she was asked virtually the same question.
And her ride, or lack of it, depended on her answer.
And she said, no.
And she didn't ride.
Not that time anyway.
And so I've asked some of the best theoretical physicists in the world the same question, and they always answer, no, not the God of the Bible.
Yeah, well, right, because the God of the Bible was written by, you know, ancient man, you know, thousands of years ago.
You know, probably, you know, a lot of that is a lot of hallucinations and a lot of, you know, being starved in the desert for days and, you know, and such as that.
So, you know, in fact, we probably wouldn't have gotten our research funded if we hadn't actually were out to sort of prove that, you know, these Elizabeth Kubler-Rosses and Raymond Moody's were wrong.
I had seen Elizabeth Kubler-Ross on the television, you know, trying to comfort some parents who had had a child who had died.
And I thought, what a bunch of baloney.
How can a respectable physician even say that kind of thing with a straight face?
And we set out to prove her wrong.
But on the other hand, you've got to balance that with that.
Well, like this little girl, that first girl I told you about, I looked at her, when she told me this whole story, went to heaven, all this kind of stuff.
I was looking at her with obvious skepticism.
And she reaches over and she pats me on the wrist and she goes, you'll see, Dr. Morse.
Heaven is fun.
You know, I mean, after you have an experience like that, or you resuscitate a three-year-old that, again, you know has been at the bottom of a swimming pool for five or ten minutes and they look you in the eye and they go, I saw the sun.
If I said, if you tossed ethics and the morality of it out the window, and I asked you to put me on a table, take some paddles, and stop my heart for me, and then wait a small period of time and then bring me back.
These are the ideal circumstances.
You're there with all the drugs you'll need, the paddles, everything's right there.
Shock you, I've actually thought about it, that if there was a pretty good, not full guarantee, but a pretty good guarantee that you could come back, that sure would be interesting research.
Of course, you'd end up in jail, but it would be interesting.
You know, there's a journalist at the University of Tokyo who actually wanted to do that, and the Tokyo physicians, of course, refused.
But, you know, there have been people that have at least volunteered to do such a thing.
But boy, the other thing is if it was such a brief cardiac arrest, you probably wouldn't have a near-death experience.
When we looked at how long the resuscitations were, we found that these very brief resuscitations, one or two seconds or a minute or two, usually the person would just say they were out of their body or they would say they were in blackness or something like that.
It wasn't until the more 19 minutes, 45 minutes that you really had that.
But there is one thing that is patients that undergo heart transplants and undergo bypass.
And many of them have reported near-death experiences.
And you could probably find somebody that would put your heart on bypass and stop your heart.
I kind of, I guess, was responsible a little bit for unleashing Daniel on the world because I was on the Larry King show and I needed a guest and I knew Raymond Moody and Raymond said, well, you've got to have her hut Daniel Brinkley on.
And I think pretty much the rest is history after that.
So we all, I think, agree that exists, at least the three of us and a lot of the audience.
So is it unreasonable, doctor, that people exposed to extremely strong electromagnetic fields would have an effect on that, that it would have an effect on that part of the brain or could?
But I think it more has to do with the sensitivity of the person, because what you're describing is not just people that see things around MRI scanners.
There are people who actually see the electromagnetic signature that we have around our own bodies.
But we've got a Reiki healer up here in Seattle, and every time she comes into my friend's office, she shorts out all the computers.
People start complaining all over the building, asking my friend, that person come by again and shorted out all of our equipment.
We showed that people that had near-death experiences, frequently watches don't work for them or they'll lose the electromagnetic signature of credit cards or such as that.
So I guarantee you that the woman you're describing had some sort of a near-death experience or profound spiritual experience that opened up that area of the brain.
Yeah, but suppose, doctor, after that was on the air, I were to tell you I had a thousand emails from people who have had unusual experiences with MRI.
Well, I know a little bit about them because I've talked to the radiologists about this issue of that our body is constantly broadcasting signals that you can hear or that we're actually patterns of energy that can be interpreted.
We think we're so solid.
We think of ourselves as a biological machine, and nothing could be further from the truth.
The distance between the molecules and our body is greater than the distances between the planets.
We're really patterns of energy embedded in greater patterns of energy.
And when you understand that, then you can understand the mechanism of how our brain can communicate with this greater reality because we're just patterns of energy resonating with this greater one.
And so then you can understand things like how a comatose brain could possibly be seeing and hearing things, because even though it has no energy itself, it's tapping into an energy source that's outside the body.
You know, the actual imagery of the experience comes from your own life art.
And just to amplify your thought, I mean, let's think about near-death researchers just in this country.
You look at the new age researchers such as, you know, Ken Ring and such as that.
Well, by and large, his subjects describe very kind of New Age type near-death experiences, floating out of their body, seeing a tunnel in the light, etc.
Well, the negative experiences you talk about, we would, since, you know, the experience itself comes from your own personal psychology, we would then predict that that would come from people who believe in heaven and hell.
And sure enough, Maurice Rawlings, the Tennessee cardiologist.
So, you know, Japanese children were the same way.
They just saw experiences of light.
So here's, well, I'll tell you what Chris Carr said.
He's an anthropologist at Arizona State University.
And he looked at this whole cross-cultural issue and also throughout time.
And he said that what we learn is that we're conscious when we die and we learn something when we die.
That dying is a time to learn something.
And when you understand it in that context, then you understand that, of course, the images come from your own personal psychology because you're not going to learn much from someone else's experience.
When I die, I'm going to see my own life.
I'm going to be comforted by images from my own life.
I'm sure you'll die and find out doctors really are gods, right?
Well, that's interesting, but it worries me a little.
In other words, when we're talking about a consciousness and we're talking about the universe and we're leaving God out of the equation for the moment, well then you would expect a great commonality from the pediatric patients to the old people to anybody who's resuscitated.
You would expect a commonality.
And I guess you're going to say there probably is one, but without that commonality.
The tunnel is entirely a 20th century artifact art.
Here's what I love to, this is what I like to say.
The tunnel got swallowed, not the tunnel, excuse me, the golden, there used to be a golden cord, and I like to say the golden cord got swallowed by the tunnel.
if you look in this country european american near-death experiences prior to nineteen sixty you know from what's what's about eighteen hundred nineteen sixty years primarily people described floating out of their body attached by a silver cord it wasn't until raymond moody came along and Yeah, well, no, no.
It's actually then, you know, when Raymond Moody came along and the Shirley MacLean days, then you started hearing about this tunnel going into a light.
But, you know, people from Africa didn't describe tunnels.
Studies of micronesian near-death experiences don't.
Well, you'd have to either think it's some sort of final fireworks in which you sort of merge into this endless pattern.
You know, after hearing these experiences for 15 years, I think the best thing I've heard is a sort of a Muslim concept that when you die, you're like a drop of water returning back to the ocean.
You know, that we're merging back with this universal energy pattern.
But I want to be quick to point out that I may not believe in life after death, but certainly I think near-death research tells us that people can communicate with people who have died or people can have premonitions of the future.
Well, I've never really thought of these experiences as proof of life after death.
I do agree that these kinds of experiences you're describing are convincing.
For example, a psychologist that I work with was telling me that he was working with one of his patients, a widow who had died, and this widow was grieving and it was just in a terrible world of hurt.
And he had sort of a shamanistic, lucid dream, out-of-body experience in which he got some information from her husband, contemporary information, that he then gave it to the woman, and it was tremendously meaningful to her.
So it is true.
And I also know a young man who he his, well, it's his mother's boyfriend died, and he has the experience of this man coming to him and giving him information on like carpenty projects or things like that.
Exactly.
So, you know, yeah, you know, but I guess in my mind, I separate what's scientific proof and what's an illustrative anecdote.
And I don't think that these anecdotes rise to the level of scientific proof.
I think they're suggestive.
They're tempting.
But the scientific proof, just knowing that we have this area in our brain, it allows us to access information that's outside our brain, and that we die conscious and aware.
But if you and I are only sitting here discussing something that's very short-lived indeed, if you'll excuse the parent pun, for people who die, well, there's this brief little interlude that is sort of interesting that you and I are talking about, but then after that, poof.
I went along the world and made the little clothes.
And when the yard broke up they said that I got killed But I'm living still I was a damn builder Across the river deep and wide Listen to the words, doctor.
We're stealing what it did to lie.
A place called Boulder on the wide Colorado.
I slipped and fell into the wet concrete below.
They buried me in that straight to the snow slow sound.
But I'm still around.
I'll always be around.
I'll always be around.
have them dial 800-893-0903 this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks But I will remain I'll be back again and again and again.
Back again and again and again, maybe a single drop of rain, but back again and again.
They were singing about reincarnation, and you've been so absolutely, starkly honest with me this morning that I'm going to see if I can push it a little further.
A lot of people believe in reincarnation.
But if I've listened to you carefully, reincarnation to you is as much, I hate to use the word bunk because that'll get people angry, but is as invalid as the probability of life after death.
I think if you look at the reincarnation research carefully, it really suggests that we're tapping into memories and energy patterns outside our body, to be sure, but doesn't suggest life after death.
Let me give you an example.
Some of the, you know, you know, the work of Ian Stevenson, I'm sure.
And, you know, so what we're dealing with is, you know, children who are recalling past lives, and then people like Dr. Stevenson rigorously investigate these and find out that, sure enough, quite frequently, they do report, you know, true past lives that seemingly they would have no way of knowing.
And, you know, well, just to add some more credence to that research, you know, someone as skeptical as Carl Sagan made the comment that such information was at least worthy of further investigation.
Okay, so, but look at this research carefully and you find that there are well-documented cases in which two children remember the same past life or one child remembering what they think is one past life when actually analyzed very carefully is two or three stories spliced into one.
You know, these kinds of anomalies really make it more likely that we're tapping into sources and memories that are outside of our body and that people are just mistakenly thinking that that's a past life.
Yeah, so that would suggest, though, that your life, for example, Dr. Morse's life, once it's over, remains in some realm as some sort of complete record that occasionally somebody can tap into.
I mean, a guy named Frank Tipler, a theoretical physicist, wrote a book called The Omega Point, which made that very point, that we are, you know, at least in some theoretical sense, eternal in that, you know, our lives are just patterns of behavior and energy.
correct not eternally conscious but eternal and that were Most after-death communications are very simple, almost like the echoes you discussed earlier.
They're usually things like the child returning to their parents saying, don't cry.
Otherwise, if you were just getting sort of some sort of echo that was hanging in the ether, it would be some little replay of something that had been, or it wouldn't be a contemporary message of that kind.
But it's so stereotypical, and they always say pretty much the same thing.
And you hear that again and again and again.
It does actually make me think more of when I drive down the highway and I see a memorial sign that says such and such was killed by a drunk driver on the right spot.
Actually, it reminds me more of that.
There's one thing that we haven't discussed that I've got to twist your brain around with.
I don't think you can understand my theories or what I'm speculating unless you understand that my opinion is that most, if not all, of our memories are stored outside our brain.
And that we don't keep our memories inside our brain the way I think that at least I was taught in medical school.
I've come to reject that position.
In fact, we are accessing memories from outside our brain all the time.
And once you understand that, then I think this reincarnation kind of business comes into play.
Or think about what the false memory syndrome is, where therapists will interview somebody and they'll say that they went back into their past and that they were abused as a child.
Well, many of these things turn out to be false.
Well, it's because these people are mistakenly accessing memories.
Let me give you a quick example of that.
We all think of hypnosis as being some sort of truth serum or that, you know, you wouldn't lie, etc.
Well, a lot of times they'll do past life regressions in which they'll regress someone back to, I mean, not past lives, but within their own life, they'll regress them back to their third or fourth year of life.
And then they'll say to the person, well, describe your birthday party.
And they'll tell their birthday party in great detail and believe it to be true.
And then you ask their mother, and the mother will say, that person, you know, my son didn't have a birthday party.
Well, how does that happen?
Well, because that person in a well-meaning way wanting to please the hypnotherapist is accessing someone else's birthday party and reporting it as their own.
And this is not medical heresy, what I'm telling you.
There is no modern theory of how memory could be stored in the brain.
So I'm not actually stepping out on some huge, long, skinny limb by saying it's stored outside the brain.
No one has a theory of how memory could be stored in the brain.
Sure, but more of a transmitter, more of allowing us to access information back and forth and actually storing memory inside the brain.
I'll just tell you this much, they can't find it.
They take rats, they teach them how to run mazes, then they chop up those brains to try to find out where the memory trace of how to run that maze is, and they can't find it.
I first actually got this idea when I was in medical school when I was at Johns Hopkins and took care of a patient in which we removed half of his brain.
And this has been shown in animal research as well.
And I started to say, Rupert Sheldrake, who's a very well-respected evolutionary biologist, he came to this conclusion independently, in which he feels the best understanding of modern evolutionary biology is that we are constantly resonating with some sort of pattern of information outside of our body that really codes for the information that allows us to be uniquely human or
any animals are resonating with their sort of perfect animal image.
Well, what I hope with my theory, Art, is that my theories ultimately will be proven wrong, but in the process of proving them wrong, we'll learn what the real story is.
But at least I've provided a template where we can now start to look at this stuff in a critical way.
Instead of just, you know, before everyone just kind of, woo, woo, isn't that weird, remote viewing or past life memories, et cetera.
You know, now I've actually, you know, I've said, hey, look, here's this area in our brain.
Maybe it allows us to communicate with the world at large, pick up energy patterns throughout our body, throughout the rest of the universe.
You know, we can start to tease that apart and see if it's really true or not.
Well, I think ghosts are very similar to what you were talking about earlier with echoes.
I think that ghosts are just memory patterns embedded in nature that similar to the things that your not your patient, but the young woman you described that saw things in the MRI scanner.
Oh, oh, that, you know, well, you know, think about what ghost stories are usually.
Usually that they involve very highly emotional events, you know, killings, battles, or something like that.
Let me give you an example of a cool ghost story that illustrates this.
There's an archaeologist working over in Turkey and he kept seeing every night this person loading dead bodies onto a mule and taking them off somewhere.
And he saw a very stereotyped vision of it.
He saw a certain angle of the man and the mule and the body draped over it.
Well, so then many years later, he was in the Gallipoli area in Turkey.
Many years later he happens to see a postage stamp from Australia which depicted the very man he saw, in fact the very scene he saw.
But this was a postage stamp that was developed by an artist ten years after this person had, you know, this archaeologist had his, you know, his ghostly vision.
In fact, this was a, I've forgotten, you know, some hero in Australia.
I've forgotten exactly who it was.
And so you have the entire consciousness of Australia, you know, with a very, you know, the many tragic deaths at Gallipoli, and they've memorialized it into their mind, into this postage stamp image that an artist created.
And here you have an archaeologist who taps into that same idealized vision, but instead in his, you know, the way he interprets it is he actually sees it as the person, you know, out on the field gathering up bodies.
But he couldn't actually be seeing it.
You know, it's not as simple as that he actually saw, you know, the ghost, you know, of that person, because if that was true, why wouldn't he have seen the person's face and many different views and etc.?
No, he only saw that very stylized version of this person that was then later commemorated on the postage stamp.
So he was tapping into an idealized vision.
You see what I'm saying?
But he wasn't actually seeing the reincarnated person living in nature as we imagine a ghost as some sort of a gaseous vapor.
Obviously, it wasn't as simple as that.
He was tapping into a memory trace, a memory trace that actually wasn't created until 10 years into the future.
Well, why not?
If he's tapping it from a timeless place, he's going to obviously be able to access information from the future.
I mean, if you think there's going to be a brief little spurt of consciousness and then blackness, one piece of information that I've learned from children that, you know, we haven't really talked about, and that is that something that is so important to you accompanies you and helps you with the dying experience.
And with children, you see this so dramatically.
You know, they'll tell you that either maybe it was their blankie, maybe it was a pet who died.
you know but for example for me if my wife dies before me i have no doubt that when i die i will see my wife again and that in itself but but just just It was for a very short time though, huh?
Well, I didn't say that, I don't know what, I mean, I'm hoping that it continues.
But nevertheless, I mean, I'm not afraid to die.
I know that the process itself is very spiritual and it involves comforting people from your own life.
My death was, if I can consider the manner of my death, then obviously I'm off on a new adventure, right?
Correct.
Yeah, okay.
Stay right there.
We're at the top of the hour.
This is really, really interesting.
Getting a doctor, a physician to open up this way.
You don't hear it all that frequently.
I'm Art Bell.
unidentified
Good read.
What a tale my thoughts could tell.
Just like an old-time movie, about a ghost from wishing well.
In a castle dark or a fortress strong, with chains upon my feet.
You know that ghost is here.
And I will never be set free.
Long as I'm a ghost, you can't see me.
If I could...
Beats on the side.
Smack touch something inside that we need so much.
the sight of the touch or the scent of the sand, or the strength of the line that is deep in the ground, the wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac and the sun again, or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, To lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing, I hold it in my memory as well, and the universe is the cover.
I'm not going to die.
Wanna take a ride?
Well, call Art Bell from west to the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
And to reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
Not the usual NDE interviews that we get, that's for sure.
And there's going to be more of it in a moment.
And yes, we're getting close to opening the phone lines.
So don't despair.
Crawl up near your phone.
Get comfortable.
Get ready.
It's getting close.
Here we go again.
Dr. Melvin Morris back with us.
Doctor, I'm reading a little of the material I got from your website, and one of the things it says here is that the effects of near-death experiences apparently occasionally in some way affect the immune system.
It's good for you to feel that your job is meaningful.
And people who have those perceptions live longer and have healthier lives.
In fact, we showed that people who have near-death experiences take fewer over-the-counter medications.
They have fewer symptoms of depression.
They have less drug use.
So it's sort of like have a near-death experience and never need an aspirin again is what I learned from studying this.
But then there's also, I think, the more dramatic healings that we see in which people are cured of cancers.
Or I had a patient once that was cured of a fatal liver disease.
And these seem to involve some kind of wholesale restructuring of our DNA, probably mediated by this interaction with this universal energy pattern, or light, or God, or whatever you want to call it.
But there's one thing that Daniel and I agree with, and that is that the experience itself is of tremendous importance for dying patients, and that we need to start to educate them that the process of dying is spiritually dynamic.
It's not to be feared.
I've tried to twist your brain so many times.
I'm going to give you one more little teaser.
If we listened up to near-death experiences and we forgot all this business about life after death and we just understood that they're real and they happen to us when we die, I believe we could save $4 billion a year in this country from health care costs.
How could I make such a dramatic statement?
Well, because we spend $4 billion a year in this country unnecessarily over-treating and over-medicating dying patients, providing them with care that will not prolong life one second, care that they usually don't want, care that physicians usually don't want to deliver, but just feel sort of like the machine just grinds on.
unidentified
But, doctor, we're giving them really a fairy tale.
But a fairy tale is not doing justice to what I'm saying.
I'm saying this is of intense importance to you, the person who's dying, to the people who are around you, to your loved ones, to your, you know.
I mean, so, you know, it has the power to reverse the isolation of the dying patient, to bring back the old deathbed scene, you know, to get rid of these irrational rules and taboos that we have surrounding dying patients, to really break the whole taboo of death altogether.
You know, right now, I mean, when patients die, nobody wants to be around them.
Doctors spend less time at the bedside.
Relatives visit less frequently.
And yet they're undergoing this very dynamic spiritual experience that has intense meaning, gives them a tremendous insight and understanding into life.
They have something to teach us dying patients too.
And that alone could trigger a cascade of sort of benefits which would include, in my opinion, the withering away of all this unnecessary medical technology.
I really believe that.
Just forget about life after death, just focusing on what we do know, that when the whole thing, when we die, that alone could save us $4 billion a year.
So that's not a fairy tale.
In our country, anything that's going to save health care dollars, well, I'll put it to you a different way.
Well, if the near-death experience is a pill, we would be ordering it by the bucket load.
But I'm just being really blunt, and I'm saying that when you must agree then, when people are told stories of how it's going to be so wonderful and there's going to be a whole new experience and you're going to go to heaven where all your relatives are going to be and you're going to, whatever concept of heaven you have is going to be eternally yours.
So that would be the ultimate goal of somebody who thinks that there's a very good chance that even though you would have this experience when you die, essentially there'd be lights out after that.
So I think that the next step then is to take his apparatus and let's see whether people who have the induced God experience can communicate then, let's say, with the dead or can demonstrate paranormal talents.
I think once we start looking at those kinds of issues, that's going to be a lot more convincing to me.
Most of the people that you interview on your show that communicate with the dead, after all, are professionals.
I mean, they have kind of a bad track record in terms of being clever con men and such as that.
I'm saying generically the field.
Whereas if someone like Michael Persinger is able to take one of his college students, stimulate the right temporal lobe, and that college student discovers he can communicate with a dead relative, that would be very convincing to me.
And that's what's exciting to me about my research is that at least it points to new avenues of research.
At least it looks at ways of trying to study these issues.
Well, I start to become convinced when there is contemporary information relayed.
That's what convinces me.
Yeah, otherwise I'm kind of with you that an active human brain can probably draw from whatever source we care to name, its own brain or an external source, as you theorize, memories of that person that I think sort of remain forever.
Well, he took college students and he showed them slides either of pleasant scenes or very unpleasant scenes, you know, car accidents and the like.
And he hooked them up to measure their blood pressure and their heart rate and such as that.
And he found that these college students would actually anticipate when they were going to see an unpleasant scene, meaning that even though these slides are shown randomly, their bodies somehow knew their heart rate would rise and their blood pressures would rise before they were shown an unpleasant slide.
And that's, I think, a fairly convincing piece of evidence that there's something is going on.
But that's not a communication, you know, like you're saying with contemporary evidence from another consciousness.
That's not a piece of consciousness type of research.
But I think that that type of study could be done to try to look at the issue of can we communicate with other consciousnesses.
Well, I tell them, first of all, that the perceptions that they have are real.
And that I think is tremendously important right there.
I reassure them that what's happening to them is not some sort of meaningless hallucination of their mind, but that it's as realistic experience as any other experience.
And I try to let them know that the experience that they have may not precisely match what our cultural stereotype of the experience is.
I have many people that have had profound experiences, but they'll say, but it wasn't a near-death experience because I didn't see a tunnel.
Or it wasn't a near-death experience because the X, Y, or Z didn't happen.
And that is the importance of understanding it comes from our own personal psychology.
And then I encourage them just to try to understand their own meaning of the experience.
These experiences usually have some sort of powerful spiritual meaning to the person.
All you really have to do is validate it.
I don't handle it any differently than, for example, when I'm dealing with a mom that has a baby that cries all night.
I just look at that mom and I'll say, boy, must be really, you know, tell me what it's like.
But let's face it, I mean, these were just books written thousands of years ago for different cultures.
I think the idea that we sort of cling to them, and yet here we have an area in our brain which allows us to directly communicate with God, I don't really, I think that people should start to use their own abilities to find their own valid spiritual and religious experiences and not be so dependent on someone else's religious vision,
which is, after all, I think, you know, what you're dealing with when you're dealing with these different religions or Bibles or what have you.
I would like to tentatively go to the phones here and see what we get.
I think I have a pretty good hint, but I would ask my audience, you folks out there, keep it civil because I'm seeing these comments that are coming in, and I know what they mean.
It means there's a bunch of people out there with Bible in their hand right now, and they're thumping on it, and they're dialing, and they're thumping on it, and they're dialing, and when they get in, look out.
Yes, you know, I used to know a woman who had a son that was in a car accident, and he was in a coma for two months.
And when he awoke, I had an opportunity to speak with him.
He said he was fully aware for something like what seemed to him to be a couple hours, which kind of goes back to what the doctor said about timeless, spaceless space.
Almost like he woke up from a short nap.
And he didn't see a tunnel and he didn't see his body or anything.
But he did say he went to a beautiful and comfortable place.
He said there was a great elder or master that greeted him.
Now, this brings me to my question for the doctor.
In the movie Flatliners, there was an element of karmic retribution.
Now, Doctor, you said that the little girl intimated to you that she went to a fun place.
I was wondering, have you heard of anyone ever having a panoramic life review like Daniel and Brinkley, where their behavior in life is specifically accounted for?
Well, I mostly deal with children, and so it's been pointed out to me that maybe children are immune from that kind of thing or what have you.
And I honestly don't know, but children typically don't have these complex life reviews, and children usually have just very kind of brief, powerful experiences, just really fragments of experiences.
I used to put snakes in my lunchbox when I'd come home from school, and my mom would open it, and, well, I'd be in terrible trouble, but I did a lot of things that would be considered generally negative for a child.
So why wouldn't a child go through the same sort of review?
Are they, you know, when I'm talking about a ghost story, the typical kind of ghost story is, you know, a house that's haunted, a place that's haunted.
For example, one very famous ghost story involves a World War II plane that was in a museum in one location, and they moved the plane, and sure enough, the ghosts moved with it.
Well, so, you know, to me, that's, I think, a memory embedded in nature.
Over a hundred years ago, the scientists at the time investigated ghost stories from the American Psychical Research Society and the British counterpart, and they actually concluded the same thing.
Not at all, because listen to the end of the story.
So the house, we had bought it from an old woman who had lived there her whole life, so we thought that, of course, she had died and her ghost still lived in this house.
Well, it turns out she was still alive, all right?
We were haunted, not by a ghost, but we were haunted by the pattern of her life.
That, you know, every day at 10 o'clock or every night at 10 o'clock, she would get out of bed, walk across the floor, open the closet door, put back her slippers, walk back, and get back in bed.
And we were haunted by a pattern, by a pattern of being.
Now, I'm not saying that there aren't beings that we can encounter from other dimensions or other realities.
And that's what I think people are talking about when they're saying they're attacked by ghosts.
I think that falls more into the category of, you know, these people that encounter alien beings while they're in a lucid state of sleep or, you know, or, you know, or such as that.
People that encounter angels or demonic beings, etc.
Well, an angel would just be, to us, the perception of, you know, whatever those, you know, just like when we use our mind to encounter this universal sort of timeless, spaceless place, people from, you know, other universes also can use their mind to encounter this timeless, spaceless place.
And so I see the interactions between those, you know, these different sentient beings is what we call angels.
Well, that's often the interpretation that we put on it.
But other people encounter angels and think that they're UFOs.
And other people encounter angels and think that, you know, and I've heard lots of angel stories in which the angels are perceived as just being ordinary citizens or the one angel that happens, you know, in my own personal life presented just as a medic, just seemed to all intents and purposes.
Well, let me give you an example that is not quite an echo.
There is a woman psychiatrist from Russia, and she had a recurring experience in which she was out of her body, and she was, you know, presented herself to a group of people who were very astonished to see her and asked her to heal different ailments they had and such as that.
This was a recurring dream that she had.
She then traveled to a distant place in Russia and just through various circumstances, encountered people who had a folk belief that a woman that looked just like her would occur to them, would appear to them and interact with them and have different encounters and beliefs.
So she was their angel, and yet she was just a living human being that she just was just basically communicating with them through time, or through this timeless, spaceless place.
They just misinterpreted her as being an angel.
She, in fact, was just a person from the future, that they were just perceiving her energy patterns and interacting with her just the way people interact with after-death communications.
You know, if when you die, Dr. Morris, you go through the white tunnel, go whizzing through, end up at the Pearly Gates, and there's a real traditional religious setting there, and a guy way up high on a table with a white beard who's going to look down on you and say, all right, Doctor, you've got a lot of talking to do.
Well, wouldn't it be logical to think that that 20% is the energy leaving our body and becoming energy of the universe and that we are, in fact, going back to what some may call God?
I had a really good friend in high school, and he was killed in a rock climbing accident.
Well, a couple of weeks before he died, he and I were sitting around a campfire, and he was telling me about a dream he had involving his grandfather, who had passed away several years before.
He said his grandfather had come to him in this dream and took him into the wall, his words.
And he said to me very seriously, I think it's my time to go.
You know, being 18, 19 years old, we're laughing, oh, come on, you know.
I didn't take it seriously.
Well, two weeks later, he was killed.
And this was rather disturbing for everybody when they'd heard about the dream, you know.
What made it even worse was the fact that he was buried in a mausoleum wall next to his grandfather.
I certainly have documented many, many such cases.
In fact, we did a study of mothers who had infants die of sudden infant death.
And we showed that about 25 to 30 percent of the time, they also had vivid premonitions, you know, not, of course, that they were going to die, but that their infant was going to die.
And, you know, these are vivid premonitions, you know, things that they would write down in journals, lucid dreams, you know, not just the ordinary fears that a parent might have.
And certainly we know from studies of adults that many adults know a week or two before they die, and usually it is because they've had some sort of a dream or a spiritual vision, etc.
A very nice study in the medical literature, in the nursing journals, in which they actually had a control group.
They looked at patients who didn't die, looked at their dreams and their visions over a two-week period, and then they looked at the dreams and visions of people who did die.
And sure enough, they showed that people had these kinds of dreams.
And they usually had this kind of a flavor, a dead relative coming to them, such as that.
unidentified
I would have discounted it as kind of coincidence, but he did say specifically that his grandfather brought him into the wall.
He seemed to believe that death was kind of a dimensional thing, that when you die, you actually move to a different level of consciousness.
And a while after that, a few, I would say, a couple years later, I started having this dream that he was trying to talk to me.
And I could remember everything that he said up to a point.
He would say, I'm going to tell you something you have to remember when you wake up.
And at that point, I can't remember what he told me.
Well, you need to go to bed at night with a pad of paper and a pencil, and you should just, you know, spend like a few minutes doing some sort of brief self-calming or self-hypnosis or regimen, like, you know, tensing your muscles and sequence or something like that.
And then you should just ask him, you know, just right before, try to make it your last thought before you go to sleep, you know, tell me what is it you're trying to say.
And then when you wake up in the morning, write down your very first thought.
Not your second thought, not your third thought, but that very first thought is a great technique to tap into, you know, what that dream is trying to tell you.
Now, what I took out of that, Doctor, that was interesting was that most people, by way of premonition or just, you know, if it's a woman, feminine intuition, whatever you want to call it, know they're going to die.
That's the more exciting part of my research to me.
You know, that this same area of the brain that allows us to have the near-death experience is the same area of the brain that accounts for our everyday intuition.
Why is all of this all that exciting if there's a brief spurt and then followed by blackness or just being a memory circulating out in the ether eternally, but nothing that resembles consciousness?
You'd think the people were badding up a silly little day.
I used to feel your rolling, don't you know?
If the core is right, I need to find an answer on the road.
I used to feel your heart beat more than one.
But the time came if the thing is for my world gets done.
Cause I'm never breathing, and still there'll be a freedom Come the days that I was born away tonight Then the donkey freedom took me knee-high to a man Yeah, give me peace of mind my dad, never had Am I?
During the news break, I was able to get the doctor on his computer, and Keith got up before the thunderclap could occur and got this article that we've been talking about on the web.
And I led the doctor right to it.
And as we speak right now, he's reading it.
The article, it's a very rare article, and so the rest of you may want to see it too.
The way you do it is go to my website, click on program, and then tonight's, let's see, what does it say?
Tonight's guest info.
And you'll see a bunch of links that relate to what we're doing tonight with a good doctor.
And then you'll see the newest link at the bottom of that list, which is the medical study that we were talking about a little while ago that the doctor said he would have to see.
It's entitled, Soul Substance.
It's from American Medicine in April of 1907.
It continues hypothesis concerning soul substance together with experimental evidence of the existence of such substance by Duncan McDougall, M.D. of Haverhill, Massachusetts.
And it documents the experiments that I just talked to you about regarding weight and the soul and loss of that weight at the instant, the exact instant of death.
And so the doctor is reading that article that he said he'd love to see right now.
You can too by going to my website.
It is, you should preserve it.
It's a very rare study, very hard to find.
And I always thought it was myth until I got the hard copy.
And now you can too.
Oh, this is going to be interesting.
So now back to Dr. Melvin Morse.
And I imagine you've not had an opportunity to read all of this.
It's from American Medicine, which at the time was one of the better journals.
And the concerns that I had when you first brought it up, remember I was saying about respiratory effort and the just when you breathe, you take in a lot of moisture.
I'm glad we were able to impress you and I hope the audience will go up there and read it as well because for many people it has sort of been a myth and dismissed, by the way, as a myth.
Well, we studied people that had near-death experiences, and we found that their psychic abilities were clearly heightened.
We looked at adults that had near-death experiences as children, and we found that they had more verifiable psychical experiences than professional psychics that we used as controls.
This goes back to what we were talking about earlier, Art, about the importance of understanding how personal the experience is.
You know, you were saying, well, gosh, if the experience is so personalized, et cetera, well, that sort of devalues it.
But on the other hand, it helps to understand our caller's experience because our callers certainly had a near-death experience, but it just contained imagery that didn't fit with our conventional description of a near-death experience.
It's from Reuters News Service, mainstream news service, right?
Just in.
Electrocuted man rises from the dead.
A Kazakh man, as in Kazakhstan, okay, who was electrocuted and buried, shocked his friends and family by turning up for his own funeral feast.
Now listen carefully.
The man was wrapped in a cloth shroud, according to Muslim tradition, buried in a shallow grave after apparently dying while trying to steal power cables in eastern Kazakhstan.
But get this, doctor.
Two days later, he regained consciousness, rose naked from the ground, and actually they go on to say he had difficulty flagging down a vehicle to take him home.
The point of the story I'm going to tell you now is that I think when you look at children's experiences that I think are the purest experiences, you get at the heart of the matter, which is that we really don't know what's going on.
And listen to what she told me.
Okay, we stuck a needle into her heart, and she was resuscitated.
So I asked her what she remembered about the time she was in the hospital.
We always ask them these kind of broad, open-ended questions.
And she says to me, she doesn't remember anything except she said, suddenly I remember that you were asking for that crash cart thing and the nurses were bringing it to you.
And she said, and then you did something to me.
And she said, suddenly I saw my grandmother and I was just so shocked to see her.
And her grandmother, of course, had died.
And then she says to me, and then I was back.
And that was her whole experience.
And I said to her, well, what do you mean by that you were back?
And she clenched her fingers in frustration and pounded them on her knees.
And she said, that's what I've been trying to figure out.
And I think that that's what, you know, I think that an adult who had the same experience would blend in their own preconceptions, their religious beliefs, and You hear these adult stories that just go on and on and on.
When you hear these children's stories, they are just these very brief impressions of something that they can't quite understand.
But she did see her grandmother, and her grandmother comforted her here during this procedure, and then she says it's very enigmatic, and then I was back.
You know, I just can't understand how you can tell me these things and not make the leap of faith, which after knowing so much as you know, it shouldn't be much of a leap for you.
I mean, when you tell me these stories, I'm almost, I want to ask you, well, then, how can you not believe?
You know, when I started all of this, I thought it was a bunch of baloney.
And I would say that only I've only become really emotionally engaged in this, you know, really thinking that there might be something in it in the last couple of years.
I will talk about your external memory, external brain theory, which I compare to a kind of worldwide web.
But before I do that, I'd like to discuss the problems of consciousness after death and the impossibility of proving it to a person like yourself who believes in a kind of worldwide web that records everything and who also believes in demons and angels.
The reason it would be impossible is because it's virtually impossible to prove a negative.
And what you have to do when you're dealing with a medium is prove that they are not either contacting some extraterrestrial being to get their information or using this World Wide Web that you talk about.
Okay, well, now to look at the problem that you present.
If, and it's very unclear as to what your anthropology is, but if it is true that men are born with these capabilities and men have been on this planet for thousands of years at a time when the Bible was written,
then we've got a real problem there because the question is, if you believe in evolution, do you believe that there could be even more superior beings somewhere else in the universe that perhaps even created the mankind that we see on this planet?
Well, actually, no, it doesn't really require any expertise because if you make the assumption that mankind was produced by evolution and therefore Absolutely.
With that assumption on the table, then we must also assume that there's a possibility that evolution has occurred elsewhere in the universe and that it may have occurred at a much earlier date than it occurred here, and therefore there may be beings with much more sophisticated technology than we have on this planet.
Dr. Melvin Morse is my guest, and it's been quite a night.
If you've been listening, you'll have to admit, it's been quite a night.
So we'll continue and do one final segment coming up in just a moment.
Stay right there.
All right, let's resume the storm, shall we?
The caller thinks it's 2-0.
The caller has managed to get the doctor to agree that, in fact, we are a product of evolution.
That, in fact, evolution probably, in all likelihood, occurred elsewhere, probably evolution that precedes ours and that will come after ours, I'm sure.
So we're that far, and I'm sure the caller thinks it's 2-0.
So spring it on them, caller.
Where you to go from there?
Well, the problem for any honest evolutionist who really believes in evolution and outright rejects the Bible is this.
They are the equivalent, or you come to the equivalent conclusion for this reason.
If you believe that intelligences exist in the universe that may precede us by millions or even billions of years, then you have to accept the possibility that those intelligences may have been responsible for the phrase, let us make man after our image.
Well, you know, you ever heard about this Dogon tribe at Africa?
This is a tribe that believes that we came from a dog star in another galaxy, but they have a sophisticated knowledge of astronomy.
And I never quite put it together with what the caller was saying, but yes, there is, I mean, there are some sort of intriguing hints like that from, you know, when you study anthropology and such as that.
This is a, I think it's called The Cirrus Mysteries.
It's written by an astronomer in England.
And he took the trouble to actually document what this tribe believed.
And he showed how they have a lot of sort of belief systems that match with modern astronomy.
And their myths are that they came from this star.
But I don't know why that would negate the concept of evolution.
It just pushes evolution back a few million years or billion years or what have you.
And when you look at it, like I was saying before the break, Christian de Dove, Nobel Prize-winning molecular biologist, he says that there is an imperative in the universe to evolve towards conscious life.
So not just that we evolve, but specifically that we evolve towards conscious life.
So if that's true, then I think it is reasonable that we have evolved in multiple places throughout the universe.
I'm not sure why that, you know, I'm not sure the leap I don't understand is why that then sort of solidifies the Bible's.
There may have been some further crashing point that we missed, unfortunately, that would have gone in that direction, but I don't see how from where he went.
You know, and then the question, if all the capability human beings from whenever to here cannot make life, all right, the probability to my understanding, it looks like it's pretty slim.
But the question is this, Doctor, are you familiar with the writings of Dr. Osis and Dr. Harrelson?
Research shows that when people die, these apparitions do come for them.
unidentified
Yes, but one thing they brought out in some of the accounts was there was accountability in that people's relatives would come for them under some circumstances and people unknown to them would come to them if they did not live a just life, apparently.
That is not my interpretation of Oslo and Harold's work.
They did a lot of work on Indian experiences, not Native American, but from India.
And they found that in India it was more of a bureaucratic society and kind of people would say things like, oh gosh, you know, you're not in our book and such as that.
I thought the accountability examples really came from their examples from American society, but not necessarily from their examples from Indian society.
unidentified
Well, you know, in both the Hindu and Muslim that they accounted, of course, about half were in the U.S. and Canada.
And the episode where it was, You're Not in My Book was when they came and took a person of one name, and there was another person in there with an identical name.
And the one person regained consciousness, or we might say, started breathing again, and the other person of the same name died.
But there was this accountability question came indeed in the Hindu experience in the Indian hospital.
But, you know, I certainly agree with you in the sense that I don't know about always accountability, but certainly when we die, it's a time for learning.
Well, certainly we learn something, and obviously the accountability factor or the judgment factor or the life review factor is part of that learning experience.
unidentified
Well, you know, the Mormon leader Brigham Young made the comment, you know, if you spend five years, or excuse me, five minutes in the afterlife, you'll know more than all the books that have been written.
Have you ever had an afterlife experience, Doctor?
I have not, but certainly the children would agree with you.
I have studied many, many children that have had these experiences, and they would say that absolutely, that they learn more from that brief near-death experience than they learned in their entire lives.
Oh, but, doctor, you know, I listened to you, and you're such a contradiction in so many ways.
You talk about this wonderful learning experience at death, at death's door, knocking on heaven's door, whatever, this wonderful experience, learning experience, which is followed by absolutely nothing.
You're a living, breathing, walking contradiction.
And, Doctor, I am the son of two ordained ministers and obviously was brought up very spiritual and with religion, etc.
And I have had two near-death experiences, one when I was 26 years old and the other when I was 42.
I would like to endorse 99% of what the good doctor has said this evening about all the experiences, the tunnel, the light, hearing what people are saying, etc.
I think the point that I wanted to make was when I came back on both occasions, it gave me a much, much greater appreciation of life.
And I am not looking forward to death.
However, I have to tell you, I do not fear death at all.
Matter of fact, there is a scripture that says, you know, I put before you life and death, therefore choose life.
And I have learned to appreciate life more than I think I ever could if I had not had those experiences.
And one of those experiences allowed me to meet my father who had deceased and speak.
I'll just tell you a real quick one that one girl who comes from a family with no religious beliefs, she told me that three doctors were at her bedside.
And I said to her, well, how did you know they were doctors?
She said they were 14 feet tall and they had light bulbs in their bodies.
You know, I think a more religious child would have called them angels.
And look, I've done the show a lot of years, and I have never before heard about a ghost that's still alive.
It's intriguingly fascinating.
unidentified
I've been asking for years, your guests, and nobody else has ever heard of one either.
Anyway, my question was, number one, I've had a near-death experience when I died on an operating table, and then I had another one when I went into a grand mall seizure, and I understand that they have similar activities for this date rape drug and for centrifugal force and oxygen deprivation, etc.
And I was wondering what's the difference is between them.
And let me ask real quick, and then I'll get off the air and listen on the radio.
Secondly, reincarnation.
Once you figure in the fact that time is not relevant on the other side, and multiple children could be living from the same soul during the same time period, doesn't that, I mean, I heard you completely negate reincarnation because children were coming up with the same story of the same life.
Well, it doesn't seem as simple to me that the same soul is recycled through body after body after body.
It seems more complex than that to me, yes.
The first question, how about if I answer your first question?
That's a lot easier.
Yeah, sure, go ahead.
I think that, well, first of all, nobody has systematically studied this issue, so I wish somebody would.
Nobody has ever looked into whether the ketamine-induced experience and the mescaline-induced experience is the same as the near-death experience.
There was a group of scientists at Northwestern University, get this art, they were actually suffocating patients with a mixture called the Medoon mixture.
And these were, you know, these weren't, you know, these weren't way out doctors.
This was a guy named Atkinson, who at the time was the head of the gastroenterology department at Northwestern University back in 1960.
And he was actually inducing the near-death experience, you know, by, you know, having people breathe a very high concentration of carbon dioxide.
But unfortunately, you know, he didn't do any further research on them, you know, the kinds of things we'd like to know.
There's a lot of recent medical evidence that people who have undergone open heart surgery and or heart transplants end up with significant personality changes.
I attribute it to that they've had near-death experiences.
But that's the kind of research that needs to be done.
And it is being done.
A guy named Bruce Grayson over at the University of Virginia is starting to do a lot of this research.
But my impression is that they're all the same experience, that it doesn't really matter how this area of the brain gets triggered, whether it gets triggered in the process of dying or whether it's what's called the hypnagognic state, which is that sort of dreamy, half-awake, half-sleep state, or whether it's a lucid dream.
Because my theory is that we use a certain part of our brain called our right temporal lobe to access a timeless, spaceless, sort of endless source of energy and knowledge that physicists would call non-local reality, which is basically all of reality all wrapped up together.
So seeing the future and seeing the past, of course, then would be quite straightforward because you're accessing this timeless place.
I would use as evidence of that when you look at people like, for example, Edgar Casey, who I think a credible sort of prophet, one thing that you notice about them is they can't tell you exactly when it's going to happen.
And Edgar Casey himself said that when he was in these States, he couldn't really tell whether it's going to happen in 10 years or 100 years or 1,000 years.
But remote viewing studies also show that it's not time dependent.
For example, they can ask someone to remote view what a target, you know, what the target person is going to see tomorrow or saw yesterday, and they're just as accurate With those kinds of targets, as they are with real-time targets.