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Feb. 16, 2001 - Art Bell
02:49:51
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Near Death Experiences - Dr. Melvin Morse
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Time Text
The music plays, so nonchalant Lonely days, lonely nights, where would I be without my
woman?
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
Oh, good morning everybody.
Listen, we've got Dr. Melvin Morris here about NDE shortly.
He knows all about near-death.
He's a doctor, pediatrician, neuroscientist.
Who spent 15 years studying NDEs of children.
You know, the innocents.
The Maggies!
So that's going to be really, really interesting.
It's one of my favorite subjects.
Should be for everybody, actually.
But first, I'm going to... One more time, because there are stations joining in this hour, and because I just want to harp on this until you Get off your duff and go over to your computer and see one of the wildest things you're ever going to see in your whole life.
It's about MRI.
And here's the deal.
A guy went out and risked his job for us.
He's a MRI technical guy.
And he made a couple of videos with sound that are just absolutely awesome.
There are two of them, and as I said, you'll get moving video, and you'll get sound.
The first shows, you can see the MRI machine, and you won't see his face, he doesn't want his face seen.
And then he's got an aluminum block.
And what he does with that aluminum block, well he asks the question, does the aluminum block fall slower, and it's at full speed, does it fall slower because of eddy currents from the magnet, or does time slow down?
And then he's got a second demonstration with an 8-inch Crescent wrench.
And these together, I guarantee, I guarantee will blow your mind and it's nothing that I think has ever been really shown before.
So I want to thank him for, you know, risking his position to do it for us.
He is anonymous.
We will not give you his name.
And, you know, you better go see it while it's still there.
That's what I can say in case somebody gets to us.
You never know.
But I got them right after the show last night, and they're mind-blowers, and it'll show you all about MRI and this giant electromagnetic field.
In fact, we'll ask Dr. Morse about electromagnetic fields as it relates to his work, and oh boy, might it ever.
So, coming up in a moment, is Dr. Morris, but get to my website at www.artbell.com and be sure you watch these videos.
Capture them if you can.
They are truly one of a kind, and we're going to be talking more about MRIs and large electromagnetic fields.
It's just sort of what I'm on to at the moment, so it's worth seeing.
Oh, that's so appropriate for so much of what we do, isn't it?
Listen, we just sailed... We just set a record.
Keith Rowland, my webmaster, informs me we just set a record.
Last hour, we utilized... We hit a peak of 36.1 megabits downloading to you all.
That is an all-time peak for the site.
36.1 megabits of bandwidth.
That's a lot of you out there.
All right.
Dr. Melvin Morse, pediatrician, neuroscientist, who spent 15 years studying the near-death experiences and the ease of children.
He says, I've learned the final moments of life are not frightening nor horrible.
When we die, we become fully conscious.
aware of our surroundings and experience spiritual insights we do not often have at other times in our lives.
By studying the neuroscience of the near-death experience, we learn that human beings have an underused area of the brain which is responsible for spiritual intuitions, paranormal abilities such as telepathy and remote viewing, and the power to heal not only the soul but the body as well.
As a young critical care physician, I started listening to children's stories of what it was like to die and return.
My research ultimately led to my discovery of our God Spot, our biological link with an interactive universe.
Dr. Morse, welcome to the program.
How are you?
I'm doing great, Art.
Thank you very much.
Is the first time that you and I have spoken officially on the air, correct?
I've been looking forward to it for a long time, Art.
I've heard a lot about your show.
It was so embarrassing.
I'm going to tell the audience earlier today.
I got this from somebody in the audience, and you said you should have Dr. Morse on, and I thought I had Dr. Morse on maybe a year, two years, three years, four years ago.
I don't know.
I had him on.
But the fact of the matter is you were on with Mike Siegel and some other talk show hosts, But never on with me personally, right?
That's correct, Art.
I'm looking forward to it, that's for sure.
I've been on your show with different substitute hosts such as that, and I know that your listeners are really informed and really able to explore really the deepest kinds of insights that studying near-death experiences can bring us.
How old are you now, Doctor?
I'm 47.
47.
And when did you begin practice?
Oh, I started, well I graduated from medical school in 1980, and I started in private practice in pediatrics in 1985.
But from about 1980 to 1990, I spent a good deal of time in critical care medicine, working for an air transport service out of Seattle Children's Hospital, Airlift Northwest.
That's rough work, huh?
I finally burnt out, and I think that most people that do that kind of work do.
It's very grueling, it's tedious, and most patients that have to be resuscitated from nearly dying unfortunately die.
Oh, they do?
And that's very difficult.
You know, that in itself, Doctor, is a really good question.
We always on TV see generally the success cases.
Right.
But in real life, people who have to have the paddles put on, how many What percentage actually return?
Well, you know, only 1 out of 100 or 1 out of 300.
Oh, you're kidding!
Yeah, you know, it's bad for you to have your heart stop beating, Art.
Now a lot of it depends, you know, if in the operating room your heart stops beating really quickly, that's, you know, they can just put the pedals on and restart it.
But if you're talking about in the field, Now, the Seattle area for adults has one of the highest success rates, and I think their success rate is in the 5 or 10 percent range.
5 or 10 percent?
Yeah, but it is not good to have your heart stop beating.
Well, you know, then that's really something the American public should know, because if you watch movies and TV, you'd figure that at least you've got a 50-50 or better shot, according to television and movies.
Well, here's a better way to look at it, Art.
At Seattle Children's Hospital, Where, you know, we resuscitate children from a four-state area, you know, the Idaho, Montana, Alaska, etc.
I studied near-death experiences in children from 1985 to about the year 2000, maybe going back as far as 1975.
about the year 2000, maybe going back as far as 1975, but over, you know, really a 15 year
time period, we only came up with 26 children who survived what we would call clinical death.
Wow.
So, I mean, the children that I studied were truly at the brink of death.
And, you know, there's a lot of, I know, debate and, you know, in the literature, are these kids really near death?
Or, you know, how do you define near death, etc.?
In our study at Seattle Children's Hospital, you had to have your heart stop beating and be resuscitated in the field.
In order to gain interest in the study, and we only found 26 children over a 15-year period that fit our criteria as truly being, you know, surviving what I call clinical death, meaning that their heart had stopped beating, the blood had stopped flowing to their brain, and yet they were still resuscitated.
Boy, does that pop a giant myth.
Holy mackerel.
Alright, let's try this one out for size.
You mentioned actually dead.
What is actually dead?
Well, you know, Art, when you're dead, you're dead.
You know, I've never resuscitated anybody who had truly died, so I guess in this day and age you would define The death is the irreversible onset of brain function.
Yeah, but that is somewhat controversial.
Oh, sure.
I mean, but not for the purposes of you and me.
You know, we're talking about, you know, we're trying to, you know, talk about people who have been to the brink of death and come back.
And we will.
I certainly know that there's, you know, there's lots of people that are sort of living in a semi-comatose state that are never expected to revive.
You know, all the debate over life and death applies to those patients.
I think my question is, doctor, after your heart has stopped and the vitals have stopped, how long are you still able to detect some emanations from the brain?
Well, you know, in an ideal situation, about four to six minutes.
Before the brain dies.
Four to six minutes.
But, you know, a lot of the children we resuscitated were cold water drownings.
And there's an old adage that if you're not warm and dead, you're not dead.
And, you know, so the cold water has a protective effect on the brain.
And we have resuscitated patients who were underwater for as long as 45 minutes.
And also reported in the literature, those kinds of extraordinary resuscitation.
Is there any possibility, Doctor, it's a weird question, that somebody who has just died is in some way still able to hear or understand some bit of what's going on around them, even though they have died.
Might they hear somebody like you say, I'm sorry, he's gone?
Sure.
And the preparations to begin taking the body away?
Oh, absolutely, Arden.
I think that's the main... Oh, my.
When people are profoundly comatose, you know, they still might hear little bits of conversation.
I thought so.
You know, yeah.
You know, there's... When people are described as being in profound comas, you know, there's still some brain activity and there's still something going on.
So, I think, in fact, that's what most physicians think near-death experiences are.
Most physicians, or medical scientists, would think that a near-death experience is just that your brain comes to the point of death, but of course, while you're comatose, maybe you hear little snatches of the operating room conversation, maybe you hear little things going on around you, little blips and blaps, and then when you're resuscitated, your mind hates the memory gap, and you hate the idea that you might have died, and so then you create a pleasing fantasy, something that Sure, but you're talking about people who come back to tell us about that sort of thing.
I'm talking about those who don't.
In other words, there might be these few minutes where you could actually hear somebody like yourself say, oh, sorry, he's gone.
Wrap him up.
Take him away, guys.
Kill yourself.
Well, that's the exciting thing about near-death research, Art, is that what you're describing is now, I think, demonstrated beyond a doubt that when we die, We do die fully conscious, even if our ears aren't working properly, our eyes aren't working properly, etc.
All the evidence would indicate that when you die, you're completely conscious, you're completely aware.
In fact, you have a consciousness that extends beyond your physical body.
That's correct.
What you're saying is not a weird question at all.
This is one of the most important questions that people have for me.
I'll give you an example.
A close friend of mine, he called me up one night crying after reading my research.
And I said, why is this so moving to you?
And he said, well, it's because when my dad died, I felt so guilty that I couldn't say goodbye to him.
He hadn't really known his dad very, kind of estranged from him over the years.
You know, I hadn't told him he loved him in a long time, and he was in the intensive care unit, but his dad was profoundly comatose.
Yes.
And he wanted to know, you know, could my dad hear me?
And, you know, and understand I was saying goodbye and that I loved him.
And sure, from a scientific standpoint, I could reassure him, absolutely.
When we die, even if we seem to be comatose, we're fully conscious and alert.
Well, that's fascinating and frightening at the same time.
Frightening in a way.
Why's that?
Well, because there would be this strange little period of time if you died.
Oh, I don't know.
Well, you know, it's funny you say that, Art, because you're absolutely right.
When children describe their near-death experiences, you're right.
Come to think of it, they are often frightened.
They're frightened because it's so puzzling to them.
Like, you know, one child told me that she was in a tunnel and she was frightened.
She knew that she had died.
She knew that her body wasn't working anymore, so she wondered why she was still conscious and what was going on.
That, I think, is the element of these spiritual helpers.
In her case, a woman named Elizabeth came to her and then comforted her and took her to a place that she thought was heaven.
But many children are... Sort of an amusing story, one young man told me that he nearly died from trying to siphon some gasoline.
uh... any aspirated at he said he floated out of body and then he became
very frightened because he didn't know how it's going to get back into his body
and camp you know that was uh... and eighty you know so it's
interesting you say that i i i i i just a one more quick link of the uh... i'm so
struck by this uh... we were suspected of the young man com
and it was quite dramatic how we were suspected him by in the uh...
uh... well after the operating room in the recovery room uh...
he is uh... his pacemaker stopped working on it
He had a congenital heart disease, and it was very dramatic.
We resuscitated him.
He opened his eyes, and he looked at us, and he goes, that was really weird.
You guys sucked me back into my body.
Oh, really?
Yeah, so I think there is an initial disorientation in those first few minutes, because you don't expect to be conscious.
You know, I always thought when you died, you just kind of, you know, I have yet another question, Doctor.
If so few are resuscitated, percentage-wise, nationally, or even worldwide, it's probably even worse, then would you say that most physicians, upon resuscitating a person, ask about their experiences, or want to listen to their experiences, or do they think it's caca, or what?
Boy, that's a tough question.
I think that five years ago, most of physicians would say it was just some sort of hallucination of the brain.
It was caca, as you say.
It was something that they're not interested in.
I think that in this day and age, probably 10% of physicians listen very attentively to these reports.
For example, I just got a letter not less than three weeks ago from the director of an intensive care unit.
At a children's hospital down in Texas, and he was writing to me because a child had told him about a near-death experience, and he wanted to know my opinion of the situation and the case.
I don't think I would have gotten such a letter ten years ago, whereas now, actually, it's fairly routine.
I get such a letter maybe two or three times a month.
Can you remember the first person you resuscitated who began all of this?
Oh, absolutely.
Gosh, like it was yesterday, Eric.
Tell me about it.
You've got to understand, you know, I trained at Johns Hopkins.
It's a very kind of, you know, rigid medical mentality.
Oh, yeah.
I really had an idea.
Well, first of all, you know, the critical care physician is fairly arrogant.
You've got to have a strong personality.
Doctors?
Arrogant?
Really?
Well, you do.
You have to think a lot of yourself.
And that was kind of my mindset.
You know, I really thought I was sort of this hot shot critical care physician.
We would fly into places.
And we went to Pocatello, Idaho and picked up a young girl who had been in a community swimming pool documented as being underwater for 19 minutes.
Wow.
And when I saw her, her pupils were fixed and dilated, which we, of course, take as a sign of impending brain death.
Well, sure.
And she had a long resuscitation and ultimately went down to Salt Lake City to primary children's there.
and ultimately regain consciousness and is doing great today, married and has kids, etc.
19 minutes?
Yes.
I just happened, it was just a total coincidence, I just happened to be moonlighting or working
actually as a resident in a clinic there in Pocatello and she just happened to be a patient
there.
And so she came in about two or three weeks after her successful resuscitation and she
looks over at me and she goes, ìHey, thatís the doctor that the tall thin doctor said
to, ìThank God youíre here.îî And she looks at me and she goes, I saw you put a tube in my nose.
Ah, see, that's what I mean.
19 minutes.
And she saw that?
And I was just floored.
Because, first of all, now that I've told you this, Art, you watch on TV, you see if you ever see a resuscitation where they put a tube in the nose.
You know, actors don't like tubes put in their nose.
Invariably, they'll put it in their mouth.
I just happen to have been trained to put it in their nose.
I knew right away that wasn't something she picked up from TV or something like that.
I'll tell you what happened to me.
When she said this to me, I actually laughed.
I giggled.
Then she immediately became very embarrassed and she wouldn't say another word to me.
The reaction that many physicians have.
I could have gone through my whole career and have never heard about one of these experiences.
Well, what kind of giggle was it?
I mean, it was like a little nervous.
You know, it was like a nervous giggle.
Yeah, a nervous giggle.
That's what I thought.
You know, but luckily for me, I did have the sort of the courage to then go back, and I called her mom, and I asked her to come back.
Hold on to that story.
We're at the bottom of the hour here, doctor.
We'll get right back to it.
19 minutes.
minutes 19 minutes oh my And she actually was able to tell the doctor what she saw?
A tube in her nose?
I just have this feeling that there's a lot about life and death that we don't understand at all.
Maybe we're not supposed to, but we do the best we can late at night here.
I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
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Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
It is, and I just turned on my live webcam.
Doesn't happen that frequently, but Keith got me a good one tonight.
I was, uh... I held up this electromagnet from the time machine that I have.
...to demonstrate it the previous night.
I was going to leave that image up there for a while at the beginning of the program, and I went and checked my own website.
I said, I'd better check before I do this.
I was actually on the air when I did it.
I went to my webcam, and here's Art Bell sitting there with an alien head.
He didn't tell me about that.
Anyway, we've got the live webcam back up now.
Dr. Melvin Morris will continue the story of the first one, 19 minutes in the water, in a moment.
Once again, here is Dr. Melvin Morris.
Dr. Morris, welcome back.
Thank you very much, Art.
All right, fine.
Let's finish up with this first young lady ever.
I wanted to hear about that first case, and so she, anyway, came back to you.
You had a nervous little giggle.
Yeah, I was in the theater, just some follow-up, and she I got her back in and sort of gently sat with her and just asked some open-ended questions like, you know, what you remember about, you know, the time that you saw me stick a tube in my nose.
And she told me basically blow-for-blow every detail of her resuscitation.
Every detail?
Oh, sure.
She had little comments that the nurses said, the tall, thin doctors said to you, thank God you're here.
I saw you put a tube in my nose.
I saw you take me into a machine that looked like a donut, which was her description of a cat scanner.
Then I saw you on the phone calling some other doctors saying, you know, what am I supposed to do now?
You know, she remembered everything, and trivial little things, you know, little comments that nurses made, stuff like that.
And that's actually what most intrigued me about her story, because at the time, of course, she was profoundly comatose.
At a time, you know, the gods that I worshipped at the time were Plum and Posner, who wrote a book called The Diagnosis of the Stupor and Coma, and they taught me that coma wipes clean the slate of consciousness.
And yet, here's a child who clearly was conscious and awake throughout her... The whole time.
You keep using the word coma.
And I suppose that's appropriate, or else she wouldn't be alive at all.
But to me, after 19 minutes underwater, you're profoundly dead.
Well, you know, if you want to call it clinical death or what have you.
Well?
You know, but she certainly, I mean, people don't come back to life after they've died.
I mean, she was just in the last few minutes of life.
You know, and then she went on to tell me a further story.
She said that She was in this place of darkness, and that a woman came to her named Elizabeth, took her to a place she thought was heaven.
She had met some friends up there.
She was given kind of a vision of her family, and then she was told that she needed to go back and help her mother, and then she returned to consciousness.
But what intrigued me not so much was the spiritual aspects of her story, but that she had any experience at all Because, of course, you know, as you're saying, dead or nearly dead brains should not be having complex visions of other realms.
You... Or, accurately describing their own resuscitations.
It just... It shouldn't be, and if it really is, I mean, to you, I guess the proof is absolutely conclusive after that.
It would have to be.
Oh, no, that wasn't the start of it.
I know, but I mean, still, that's pretty conclusive.
If that doesn't launch you into an investigation, then you're not a really good, a very good scientist at all.
Oh, sure.
It was convincing to me, Art, but that's not the standard of proof that I think the scientific community needs, and I don't think that that's what they've responded to in the last 15 years.
I don't think they're ever going to get enough.
Oh gosh, oh no, we're right on the edge now.
I completely disagree.
Well, let me tell you three facts that everyone agrees with.
Convince me, yes.
Okay, here's three facts.
Everyone agrees that, first of all, when you die, you're conscious and alert and having some kind of spiritual experience.
So that's beyond dispute now.
Nobody disagrees with that.
Oh yes, they do.
Listen, I've seen doctors on programs like 20-20 stand up and say,
look, white tunnels, visions of relatives, it can be attributed to the fact that when
we die, our brain dies from the outside moving inward.
Sure.
And that would produce the vision of the tunnel of light and the bright spot at the center and all.
But it's just a matter of the brain closing down.
That's what they say.
But these are scientists who are not familiar with the literature.
I guess I'm saying anyone who has looked at the literature objectively.
I've been on those same shows, Art.
They have to look far and wide to find someone Who is willing to say that kind of stuff?
That's the hardest thing for TV producers nowadays, is to find a so-called skeptic.
In fact, I was on national radio with Paul Kurtz, you know, who's head of, what is that, the Psycopts?
Yes.
And I absolutely shredded him, because he had no knowledge of the enormous amount of scientific evidence backing up what I'm saying.
You know, for people... By the way, Doctor, speaking of Psycopts, did you know That I won the Snuffed Candle Award.
Oh, is that right?
Oh, yes.
That's their big maximum yearly award that they give to somebody to try and make them feel bad.
Oh, is that right?
Oh, yes.
I don't know that necessarily, you know, an award like that from that institution might be more of an honor.
Doctor, I have it proudly on the wall.
I put it on my website.
It was such a badge of honor.
But, well, let me just give you one piece of evidence that'll just tweak your imagination.
This is research now that comes from the National Warfare Institute.
So, you know, this is published in some sort of obscure aerodynamics journal.
That's why a lot of people aren't familiar with this literature because, you know, there's little bits and pieces of it everywhere.
But here's what this guy did.
His name's Jim Winery.
He's a flight surgeon from the National Warfare Institute.
He took fighter pilots and he put them in centrifuges and he whirled their brains at
tremendous speeds to try to understand what happens to the human brain with these tremendous
G-forces.
He was able to show that as the forces became greater and greater and the blood stopped
flowing in their brain, they would go through definite stages in which they would become
comatose and then they would go through muscle spasms and they would have seizures.
And then listen to this, right at the point where the blood stops flowing in their brain,
they regain consciousness.
What?
Absolutely.
And there's no doubt that that's when it happens.
You know, in my studies, you could argue, of course, you know, maybe this child heard some things here and there.
She wasn't really comatose, you know, blah, blah, blah.
But, I mean, he's able to vary his centrifuge runs to the point... Yes, I understand.
What sort of physiological reason would there be for that, or don't we know?
Well, we don't know.
I mean, that's what's so exciting about it.
You know, but we do know from studies like Jim Winery's and also studies like mine out of Seattle Children's Hospital, that the closer you come to death, the deeper you go in coma, that suddenly you hit a phase in which you're conscious and awake.
And these fighter pilots described the same thing as, you know, my children described in their near-death experience.
They would describe going through tunnels, floating out of their body, seeing themselves below.
So that's the one fact.
We're conscious and awake when we die.
The second fact is that about 20% of our brain apparently is hardwired to allow us to have
this experience.
Again, this is not controversial.
You have people like Matthew Alpert that wrote The God Area of the Brain.
He basically agrees with that too.
He just happens to think that there is no God, but... Well, I think that you and I talked for a moment, uh, when we did a pre-interview, when I wanted to get you on the air, and I mentioned Matthew to you.
Sure.
And you said, how could he get it so right and so wrong?
Well, he was so close!
I mean... Well, listen, I'm not saying that Matthew's wrong.
And you're going to have to prove to me I mean, nobody can prove the existence of God, but I'm just saying that even a skeptic agrees that 20% of our area of the brain allows us to have this experience.
And then you have the final piece of information.
That's double what we use in everyday life.
Absolutely.
Right.
Think about that for a bit.
I am.
But the final piece of information comes to us from the world of theoretical physics.
And you know, Art, you know, I always hear so much about, you know, pseudo-physics and quantum gobbledygook and stuff like that.
So the information I'm giving you now comes right from the top theoretical physicists at the National, you know, our National Theoretical Physicists Lab.
Quantum gobbledygook?
Yeah, you know, that's what, you know, the so-called skeptics are always accusing, you know, sort of New Age practitioners of indulging in So what I'm saying is that I'm not a theoretical physicist, but I went to the top theoretical physicists in this country to vet what I had to say and make sure that the information that I'm about to share with you now is correct.
And they said absolutely that the nature of the universe is that it is a timeless, spaceless place where everything that ever happened and everything that ever will happen is happening all at once.
That we are all swimming in these patterns of energy Which code for everything?
So, you know, so okay, so let me give you the three facts just real quick.
One fact, die, we're conscious, awake, we see a timeless, spaceless place where everything exists.
Number two, 20% of our brain allows us to have that experience.
Number three, the theoretical physicists tell us that such a place exists.
Well, you know, I'm not, that's not proof art, but I mean, those are three pretty solid scientific facts.
And you don't have to connect the dots very much to say, hey, wait a minute.
Well, maybe when we die, we use this area of the brain to perceive the timeless, spaceless place that the physicists are talking about.
I mean, that's not a huge stretch.
In fact, that's a better explanation than the alternative.
Doctor, this place that you're talking about, is it a place provided by God, in your opinion?
Well, I think it is what people call God.
People who interact with this.
You can't really call it a place.
I mean, I know I call it a place, too, but it's spaceless.
So, you know, unfortunately, we don't have words as biological human beings to understand the nature of reality.
But sure, people who interact with this space, well, adults call it God, but children say something very different.
They'll go, wow, it was a place that had a lot of good things in it.
Or they'll say, oh, it was just smiling at me, or I knew everything, or, you know, it could have lasted a second, it could have lasted my whole lifetime.
I mean, you know, that's what the children who interact with it describe it as.
Do you, uh, it's just maybe a rude question, but I'll just ask, do you believe in the God of the Bible?
The God of the Bible?
The God of the Bible.
Oh, gosh, no.
Well, gosh, what was that?
Gosh, no, so quickly.
No, that's fine.
Are you saying gosh, no?
Yeah, no, I think that the God of the Bible is more, you know, that was just, you know, that's, you know, the Bible, I'm sure you're aware, was a series of books written by human beings over, you know, several hundred period of time, and, you know, mostly is, you know, just, you know, shows what their internal spiritual life was like, but, you know, no, I don't think that there's a You know, that God is some sort of male being that is, you know, watching our every move or anything like that.
You saw the movie Contact, right?
Sure.
You remember?
The movie Contact, I think, is right on.
But you remember when the person was in the hot seat, Jodi was in the hot seat, and in the end, after a dramatic exchange, she was asked virtually the same question.
And her ride, or lack of it, depended on her answer, and she said, no.
And she didn't ride.
Not that time, anyway.
And so, I've asked some of the best theoretical physicists in the world the same question, and they always answer, no.
Not the God of the Bible.
Yeah, well, right, because the God of the Bible was written by, you know, ancient man, you know, thousands of years ago.
You know, probably, you know, A lot of that is a lot of hallucinations and a lot of, you know, being starved in the desert for days and such as that.
Do you believe in the concept of creation?
Boy, you know, that's something I guess I'm just going to pass on.
I wouldn't know whether... Alright, that's fine, but if anything, in my mind, this makes your research and your reports more credible.
Because if I thought you were coming at it from a religious point of view, I would detect strong motive, which would be all right.
I would just want to know that.
It's that you're coming at this from a straight-on medical view, having answered a couple of really tough questions I just tossed at you, and so that frames your research in a more credible way for me, personally.
Well, I tried to do that.
I tried to start with what these children told me about being at the point of death.
Well, Art, we went even further than that.
When I started my research, we thought that a drug, an anesthetic agent called halothane, probably caused the experience.
Right.
So, you know, in fact, we probably wouldn't have gotten our research funded if we hadn't actually... We were out to sort of prove that, you know, these Elizabeth Kubler-Rosses and Raymond Moody's were wrong.
I had seen Elizabeth Kubler-Ross on the television, you know, trying to comfort some parents who had had a child who had died.
I thought, what a bunch of baloney.
How can a respectable physician even say that kind of thing with a straight face?
We set out to prove her wrong, but on the other hand, you've got to balance that with it.
Like this little girl, that first girl I told you about?
Yes.
I looked at her and when she told me this whole story, went to heaven and all this kind of stuff, I was looking at her with obvious skepticism.
She reaches over and she pats me on the wrist and she goes, You'll see, Dr. Morse.
Heaven is fun!
After you have an experience like that, or you resuscitate a three-year-old that, again, you know has been at the bottom of the swimming pool for five or ten minutes, and they look you in the eye and they go, I saw the sun!
I saw the sun!
And it had a happy face!
And, you know, and that was on an overcast day that, you know, there was no sun out.
I guess that's how a child would react.
Yeah, you know, it's just that when you have those kinds of experiences, you know, it does, you can't be completely objective, but I have tried to start with the children's experiences and then build from there and try to make sense of them.
Alright, sort of a medical question for you.
Sure.
If, I said, if you tossed ethics and the morality of it out the window, I asked you to put me on a table, take some paddles, and stop my heart for me, and then wait a small period of time, and then bring me back.
These are the ideal circumstances.
You're there with all the drugs you'll need, the paddles, everything's right there.
What would be my chances of coming back?
Boy, it would be pretty slim.
Really?
Less than 10%, I'm sure.
Really?
Yeah, an adult physician, I think, would have to answer that question better than me.
What would be a child's chance?
A child's chance would be in the 1 in 100 or 1 in 10 range.
When we looked at cardiac arrest, even in a hospital setting, By and large, most of them did not have a good outcome.
So then the movie Flatliners was just full of it?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, there's no question about it.
Nobody would ever do such a thing.
Okay, I'm giving up on that idea.
I've actually thought about that.
Yeah.
I've actually thought about it, that if there was a pretty good, not full guarantee, but a pretty good guarantee that you could come back, that sure would be interesting research.
Of course, you'd end up in jail, but it would be interesting.
Yeah, boy.
You know, there's a journalist at the University of Tokyo who actually wanted to do that, and the Tokyo physicians, of course, refused.
But, you know, there have been people that have at least volunteered to do such a thing.
But boy, the other thing is that if it was such a brief cardiac arrest, you probably wouldn't have a near-death experience.
When we looked at how long the resuscitations were, we found that these very brief resuscitations, one or two seconds, You know, a minute or two, usually the person would just say they were out of their body or they would say that they were in blackness or something like that.
It wasn't until the more, you know, 19 minutes, 45 minutes that you really had that.
But, you know, there is one thing that is patients that undergo heart transplants and undergo bypass.
Yes.
And many of them have reported near-death experiences.
And you could probably find somebody that would put your heart on bypass and stop your heart.
It's just one of those things like you consider in a lifetime.
Yeah.
That's all.
Doctor, we're at the top of the hour, so hold on.
No, I'll pass on that.
Not for the purpose of just finding out if I'd see the tunnel.
There's got to be better ways in the conscious world to do that.
Especially with those odds.
I never knew, did you, that the odds of resuscitation, even under the best of circumstances, are that small.
Boy, those so-and-so's in Hollywood.
What lies they tell!
I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM, and we're talking about what happens after... after you've died.
We'll be back.
Girl, I know there's no one above you.
You are the sun, you are the rain.
You make my life this foolish game.
You need to know, I love you so And I'd do it all again and again
Wanna take a ride?
Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
It is.
Good morning, everybody.
Yes, I actually actively considered that.
You know, finding somebody who would put me away, as it were, and then bring me back.
I thought about it.
Probably in the way most human beings at one time or another consider taking their own life.
Not many admit it, but they, you know, it crosses your mind.
It's one of those little things that a human considers every now and then, but I got so interested in NDEs that I thought about that for a while.
But, uh, listening to Dr. Morse, I don't think the odds are so good.
We'll pass on that one.
But hearing about it is nevertheless fascinating, because eventually, you know, we're all going to have the experience one way or the other.
Had you thought about that?
You hear that?
There are a few people who have gone that way, too.
Daniel Brinkley's one.
A crack like that, and he was gone.
Talk about NDEs.
All right, once again, here is Dr. Melvin Morse.
Dr. Morse, welcome back.
Thank you very much.
Doctor, have you heard of Danion Brinkley?
Oh, of course!
I guess I was responsible a little bit for unleashing Danion on the world because I was on the Larry King Show and I needed a guest and I knew Raymond Moody and Raymond said, well, you've got to have Danion Brinkley on.
I think pretty much the rest of history after that.
Unleashed on the world.
Unleashed on the world is the proper way to put it, all right.
I want to take you off course for just one second, or maybe it's not off course.
A few days ago, Doctor, I stumbled into this thing where a lady called me on the phone and said, Art, I'm an MRI tech, and I've been working in MRI for years, and Art, I've been seeing things around MRI machines now for years and I won't talk to my you know my my fellow technicians about it and I really thought holy mackerel I mean you talk about the part of the brain that allows for this sort of thing you use about twenty percent Matthew Alper calls it the God part of the brain you don't disagree on that basic tenet after that you'll disagree but you don't disagree on that
It's our God communicator.
It's the thing that allows us to access this non-local reality, this timeless space.
The God part of the brain, then, okay?
Well, but it also allows for the paranormal talents, such as telepathy.
I'm with you.
I'm with you all the way.
So, we all, I think, agree that exists, at least the three of us and a lot of the audience.
So, is it unreasonable, Doctor, That people exposed to extremely strong electromagnetic fields would have an effect on that part of the brain, or could?
Well, I don't know that the MRI scanner is an extremely strong electromagnetic field.
Oh, yes it is.
Yeah, I know it's a giant magnet.
Oh, Doctor, are you on the web?
Yeah, oh yeah, I mean I could get on it.
You go to my website and there are two video clips there of just how strong a field the MRI is.
It's incredibly strong.
But I think it more has to do with the sensitivity of the person, because what you're describing is not just people that see things around MRI scanners.
There are people who actually see the electromagnetic signature that we have around our own bodies.
That's right, Deora.
You know, we have a... I've got a good friend, Vernon Nepi, who's... You're only confirming this for me.
You're saying, yes, indeed, we're electromagnetic beings.
Oh, absolutely.
Neurons are firing away at human beings first.
Yeah, their neurons are firing away in there like crazy in our brain.
We've got a Reiki healer up here in Seattle, and every time she comes into my friend's office, she shorts out all the computers.
You know, people start complaining all over the building, you know, asking, Asking my friend, you know, has that person come by again and shorted out all of our equipment?
Oh yeah.
We showed the people that had near-death experiences frequently watches don't work for them or they'll lose the electromagnetic signature of credit cards or such as that.
Or how about this?
After they have returned, frequently they exhibit a paranormal ability they did not previously have, don't they?
So I guarantee you that the woman you're describing had some sort of a near-death experience or profound spiritual experience that opened up that area of the brain.
Yeah, but suppose, doctor, after that was on the air, I were to tell you I had a thousand emails from people who have had unusual experiences with MRI.
Yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all.
You know, the MRI scanner is very interesting.
It actually listens to the sound.
It's actually a You know, they listen to the sounds of different, you know, the differences in your body.
And then it's only through computer software that those sounds are converted to visual images.
That's right.
You know, if we were more auditory, you know, radiologists could actually listen to, you know, a brain tumor.
They could listen to, you know, what your kneecap looked like.
So, you know, it doesn't surprise me at all what you're describing.
All right.
Well, it is, trust me when I tell you, one of the largest electromagnetic fields in use anywhere.
I was unaware of that.
Oh my, yes.
I guess you're just used to ordering them and looking at the results.
Correct.
Not operating them.
I understand.
Well, I know a little bit about them because I've talked to the radiologists about this issue of, you know, That our body is constantly broadcasting signals that you can hear or that we're actually patterns of energy that can be interpreted.
We think we're so solid.
We think of ourselves as a biological machine and nothing could be further from the truth.
The distance between the molecules in our body is greater than the distances between the planets.
We're really patterns of energy embedded in greater patterns of energy.
And when you understand that, then you can understand the mechanism of how our brain can communicate with this, you know, greater reality, because it's just, we're just patterns of energy resonating with this greater one, and so then you can understand things like how a comatose brain could possibly be seeing and hearing things, because even though it has no energy itself, it's tapping into an energy source, you know, that's outside the body.
Alright, answer this for me.
Because I've done this radio program so long now, so many years, I have interviewed quite a number of people, including Sarah.
We spoke of Sarah briefly before the program.
My Sarah, that interview.
I've talked to a number of people, Doctor, who have had negative NDEs put straight on to you.
They said they went to hell.
Sure, why not?
I mean, of course.
You know, the actual imagery of the experience comes from your own life art.
And just to amplify your thought, I mean, let's think about near-death researchers just in this country.
You look at the New Age researchers such as, you know, Ken Ring and such as that, well, by and large, his subjects describe very kind of New Age-type near-death experiences, floating out of their bodies, seeing a tunnel in the light, etc.
Well, the negative experiences you talk about, you know, we would Since, you know, the experience itself comes from your own personal psychology, we would then predict that that would come from people who believe in heaven and hell, and sure enough, Maurice Rawlings, the Tennessee cardiologist... Oh, yes.
Yes, I've interviewed Dr. Rawlings.
Well, then you know he's right from the Bible Belt.
Yes, I am.
A great percentage of his patients have a very literal belief in heaven and hell, so of course that's the imagery that would be reflected upon them.
Well, but you say that, but okay, let me briefly review Sarah's NDE.
Sarah was A church volunteer, a young lady.
Sarah was on her way home from church.
She was riding her bicycle, and she got hit at a high speed from the rear.
She was clinically dead for a long time.
She was the sweetest little thing you can imagine, a believer with faith, and she went to hell.
In part, at least.
She went to hell, Doctor, now.
Well, in her mind.
I mean, she went to the hell that she knew of for her own personal psychology.
Don't get hung up on the individual elements of the experience, Art.
I'm trying not to, but I've heard of it.
When you look cross-culturally, let's just take a step back from her experience.
We went to Japan.
We heard over 400 Japanese near-death experiences.
I worked with a psychiatrist at the University of Tokyo.
Oh, yes, and?
And we didn't hear any heavens or hells.
We heard all kinds of Japanese religious images and experiences.
But what does that mean?
Does that mean that you get what you expect?
Correct.
Well, let me just finish the thought.
I didn't go to Africa.
I collected 50 native African near-death experiences.
They were primarily people walking down paths in the jungle and meeting men dressed in white robes saying, what are you doing here?
But you really see this when you look at children, because children don't have all these images.
You're right.
You know, see, that's when you really understand how much of it's your personal psychology.
When you look at children's experiences, they go, I saw the sun.
Or they'll say, wow, it was really weird.
I saw this light, and it had a lot of good things in it.
That's all they say, but isn't that what you would expect a child to say?
Sure, exactly.
Japanese children are the same way.
They just saw experiences of light.
Here's, well, I'll tell you what Chris Carr said.
He's an anthropologist at the Arizona State University, and he looked at this whole cross-cultural issue, and also throughout time, and he said that what we learn is that we're conscious when we die, and we learn something when we die.
That dying is a time to learn something.
And when you understand it in that context, then you understand that, of course, the images come from your own personal psychology, because you're not going to learn much from You know, from someone else's experience, you know, when I die, you know, I'm going to see my own life.
I'm going to be, you know, comforted by images from my own life.
Well, I'm sure you'll die and find out doctors really are gods, right?
Well, that's interesting, but it worries me a little.
In other words, when we're talking about consciousness and we're talking about the universe and we're leaving God out of the equation for the moment, well then, you would expect A great commonality from the pediatric patients to the old people to anybody who's resuscitated, you would expect a commonality.
And I guess you're going to say there probably is one, but without that commonality... No, I disagree.
There is no commonality.
What about the tunnel?
The tunnel is entirely a 20th century artifact art.
Here's what I like to say, the tunnel got swallowed, not the tunnel, excuse me, the golden, there used to be a golden cord, and I like to say the golden cord got swallowed by the tunnel.
If you look in this country, European-American near-death experiences prior to 1960, you know, from let's say about 1800 to 1960, primarily people described floating out of their body attached by a silver cord.
It wasn't until Raymond Moody came along in the Shirley MacLaine days, then you started hearing about this tunnel going into a light.
it's actually then you know when reymond moody came along in the surely
mcclean days then you started hearing about this tunnel uh... going into a light but
you know uh... people from uh... africa didn't describe tunnels uh...
studies of micronutrient near-death experiences don't uh...
well if there's no commonality if you're arguing against that point for a
most i am indeed people argue for it but so what they're all of the whole
There's no evidence whatsoever!
I'm with you, fine, they're wrong.
Okay, well then, that argues, though, against there really being something after death.
It doesn't argue for it, it argues against it.
In other words, you're getting your own perceptions, or what you expect, or what you believe, But if there's no commonality, then maybe there is a point where it all cuts off.
I love you, Art.
I wish I could kiss you.
Sure.
That's absolutely true.
I've studied near-death experiences.
That's why I'm not on Larry King with you.
Here's the deal.
That's true.
Near-death experiences tell us very little about life after death.
They tell us we're conscious when we die.
They tell us we learn something when we die.
Inferentially, you know, why would we learn something when we die if there wasn't something else afterwards?
But these experiences teach us about life.
The exciting part of these experiences is to learn we have this area of the brain, start to use it while you're still alive.
Start to have this communication.
Well, we have it anyway.
You know, what you call intuition is just the natural functioning of your right temporal lobe tuning in information from this non-local reality.
So, you know, yeah, it teaches us about living, but I agree.
I've studied these experiences for 15 years.
I don't think they tell us really much about life after death, or we don't know what happens after we die.
So then you would imagine that there's a significant possibility that there is light out, goodbye at some point.
Well, you'd have to either think it's some sort of final fireworks in which you sort of merge into this Endless pattern.
You know, after hearing these experiences for 15 years, I think the best thing I've heard is a sort of a Muslim concept that when you die, you're like a drop of water returning back to the ocean.
You know, that we're merging back with this universal energy pattern.
But, you know, I want to be quick to point out that I may not believe in life after death, but certainly I think near-death research tells us that people can communicate with people who have died.
Or people can have premonitions of the future.
Absolutely!
Uno momento!
If you can communicate with somebody who has died, then there has to be life after death, or consciousness after death.
Otherwise, that's not a real communication.
It's timeless, Art.
It's timeless.
So the future and the past are meaningless in the context of something that's timeless.
But are you communicating with a consciousness?
Well, I think people who interact with it describe it as a consciousness.
Or just some sort of echo of what was, that will always remain going around and around.
You know, I don't know that we can answer that question.
I can only tell you that people who've had the interaction describe it as a consciousness.
And, you know, certainly, you know, we know that we're patterns of energy that reside in this timeless place.
So clearly, if we have the ability to access information from this timeless place, then we can communicate with people who have died.
But that doesn't, you know, I don't think that necessarily says there's necessarily life after death.
Like you're saying, it may just be an echo going around and around.
Well, it says that to me.
i have to talk to people who have uh...
uh... actually communicated with the dead and received a great deal of contemporary
accurate information
yeah contemporary keyword contemporary that they have the key lost is
it's in the garage under uh... under the table leg or something like that
that's true and i have an experience of those kinds of uh...
uh... stories in the documented many of them myself all you have to play the
devil's advocate once again you could just say that's an echo though
You could say, you know, that's similar to, let's say, a ghost story.
No, no, no, no, you couldn't say that.
An echo wouldn't be able to instruct you on something that's happened since its passing.
Hmm, that's a good point, alrighty.
Okay, well, see, ha ha ha, yeah, alright.
You and I are switching positions here.
You're playing devil's advocate and then I am.
Well, I've never really thought of these experiences as proof of life after death.
I do agree that these kinds of experiences you're describing are convincing for For example, a psychologist that I work with was telling me that he was working with one of his patients, a widow, who had died.
This widow was grieving and was in a terrible world of hurt.
He had a shamanistic, lucid dream, out-of-body experience.
In which he got some information from her husband, contemporary information, that he then gave it to the woman, and it was tremendously meaningful to her.
So it is true, and I also know a young man who, his mother's boyfriend died, and he has the experience of this man coming to him, and Giving him information on like carpentry projects or things like that.
Exactly.
But I guess in my mind I separate what's scientific proof and what's an illustrative anecdote.
And I don't think that these anecdotes rise to the level of scientific proof.
I think they're suggestive.
They're tempting.
But, I mean, just, I mean, the scientific proof, you know, just knowing that we have this area in our brain, it allows us to access information that's outside our brain, and that we die conscious and aware, I mean, boy, that's pretty, that's pretty amazing right there.
You haven't come a long way in 20 years.
Yes, it is.
But if you and I are only sitting here discussing something that's very short-lived indeed, if you'll excuse the apparent pun, For people who die, well, there's this brief little interlude that is sort of interesting that you and I are talking about, but then after that, poof!
Yeah.
Well, that's the opinion of Michael Schroeder.
He's a well-known near-death researcher.
He's a German psychiatrist, and he wrote a really definitive review of the experiences in the Journal of Scientific Exploration.
And he agrees that when we die, we die conscious and alert, and he agrees that when we die we have this expanded sense of consciousness, you know, to leave our body, etc.
And then that's what he agrees, that's his position.
He says, and then that's it, we just poof, into whatever's... That's really it?
Yeah, he calls it the near-death experience foreplay.
You are, other than Matthew Albart, you're really the first person to come along and really tell me they believe this.
I don't know that I believe it.
I actually think that we are energy, and I think that we are something.
I think there is a soul.
Actually, I do believe that.
I think we have a soul that we're more than just the electrical impulses and all the rest of it.
You know, in the back of my book are over 250 scientific references.
I'm documenting everything that I've said.
I think this is no longer an issue of belief, but this is an issue of any fair-minded person's objective analysis.
Well, you can't prove we don't have a soul, can you?
Well, I'll give you... No, I think we do have a soul.
I think that's... You do have a soul?
Sure.
I mean, if by a soul you mean this electromagnetic resonance which allows us to communicate with... Doctor, hold on.
we'll be right back i was a highway man
along the coast road i did ride sword and pistol by my side
many a young maid lost her marbles to my trade many a soldier shed his white blood on my blade
the master hung me in the spring of twenty five Bye.
you But I am still alive.
I was a sailor.
I was born upon the tide.
With the sea I did abide.
I sailed a schooner around the Horn of Mexico.
I went aloft to twirl the mainsail in a float.
And when the yards broke off, they said that I got killed.
But I'm livin' still.
I was a dam builder, across the river deep and wide.
Listen to the words, doctor.
Where steel and water didn't collide.
A place called Porter on the wide Colorado.
I slipped and fell into the wet concrete below.
They buried me in that grey tomb that knows no sound.
But I am still around.
I'll always be around, around, around, around.
To recharge Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
800-618-8255, east of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222, or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them
dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM, with Art Bell, on the Premier Radio Networks.
But I will remain, I will remain.
I'll be back again and again and again.
Good morning, everybody.
We are back right now.
Dr. Melvin Morse is my guest, and we have a related question for him coming up in just a moment.
It can happen that fast.
Life and death, just that fast.
Crack of a lightning.
Once again, Dr. Melvin Morse.
Doctor, welcome back.
Thank you very much.
Did you hear the words to that song?
Yeah, I'm still alive.
You know what they were singing about, right?
No.
They were singing about reincarnation, Doctor.
Oh, is that right?
Uh-huh.
Back again and again and again.
Maybe a single drop of rain, but back again and again.
They were singing about reincarnation, and you've been so absolutely, starkly honest with me this morning that I'm going to see if I can push it a little further.
A lot of people believe in reincarnation, but if I've listened to you carefully, Reincarnation to you is as much, you know, I don't want to use, I hate to use the word bunk because that'll get people angry, but is as invalid as the probability of life after death.
Yes?
I agree.
I think, I think if you look at the reincarnation research carefully, it really suggests that we're tapping into memories and energy patterns outside our body to be sure But doesn't suggest life after death.
Let me give you an example.
Some of the, you know, you know the work of Ian Stevenson, I'm sure.
Of course.
And, you know, so what we're dealing with is, you know, children who are recalling past lives and then people like Dr. Stevenson rigorously investigate these.
Yes.
And find out that, sure enough, quite frequently they do report, you know, true past lives that Seemingly, they would have no way of knowing.
Sometimes doing it in other languages, Doctor.
How do you account for that?
We'll just add some more credence to that research.
know someone is uh... skeptical of skull carl sagan i made the comment that um...
uh... that such uh...
you know such such information was uh...
was uh... at least uh... worthy of further uh... yes investigation yes
okay so but look at this research carefully and you find that uh... they're
well documented cases in which two children remember the
same past life or
one child remembering what they think is one past life when actually analyzed
very carefully is two or three
stories spliced into one uh...
You know, these kinds of anomalies really make it more likely That we're tapping into sources and memories that are outside of our body, and that people are just mistakenly thinking that that's a past life.
Yes, that would suggest though that your life, for example, Dr. Morse's life, once it's over, remains in some realm Uh, as some sort of complete record that occasionally somebody can tap into.
And that's correct, I think, you know.
You think that's what it is?
Oh sure, I mean, a guy named Frank Tipler, a theoretical physicist, wrote a book called The Omega Point, which made that very point, that we are, at least in some Theoretical sense, eternal, in that our lives are just patterns of behavior and energy.
But not eternally conscious.
Eternal in another sense, right?
Correct.
Not eternally conscious, but eternal in that we're... Let's skip from past lives to then after-death communications.
Most after-death communications are very simple.
Uh, almost like the echoes you discussed earlier.
They're usually things like, uh, the child returning to their parents saying, don't cry.
Yes.
I'm okay now.
Yes.
But nothing more than that.
I'm okay now.
That's a pretty serious sentence.
I'm okay now.
That implies I'm conscious and I'm okay.
Otherwise, if you were just getting sort of some sort of echo that was hanging in the ether, it would be some little replay of something that had been or It wouldn't be a contemporary message of that kind.
Not, I'm okay now.
But it's so stereotypical, and they always say pretty much the same thing, and you only, you know, you hear that again and again and again.
It does actually make me think more of, you know, when I drive down the highway and I see a memorial sign, you know, that says, you know, such and such was killed by a drunk driver on the spot.
You know, actually it reminds me more of that.
There's one thing that we haven't discussed that I've got to twist your brain around with.
I don't think you can understand my theories or what I'm speculating unless you understand that my opinion is that most if not all of our memories are stored outside our brain and that we don't keep our memories inside our brain the way I think that at least I was taught in medical school.
I've come to reject that position.
In fact, we are accessing memories from outside our brain all the time.
Once you understand that, then I think this reincarnation kind of business comes into play.
Or think about what the false memory syndrome is, where therapists will interview somebody and they'll say that they went back into their past and were abused as a child.
Many of these things turn out to be false.
It's because these people are mistakenly accessing memories.
Let me give you a quick example of that.
We all think of hypnosis as being some sort of truth serum or that, you know, you wouldn't lie, etc.
Well, a lot of times they'll do past life regressions in which they'll regress someone back to, I mean, not past life, but, you know, within their own life, they'll regress them back to their third or fourth year of life.
And then they'll say to the person, well, describe your birthday party.
And they'll tell their birthday party in great detail.
And believe it to be true, and then you ask their mother, and the mother will say, that person, you know, my son didn't have a birthday party, you know.
Well, how did that happen?
Well, because that person, in a well-meaning way, wanting to please the hypnotherapist, is accessing someone else's birthday party and reporting it as their own.
And this is not medical heresy, what I'm telling you.
There is no modern theory of how memory could be stored in the brain.
So I'm not actually stepping out on some huge, long, skinny limb by saying it's stored outside the brain.
No one has a theory of how memory could be stored.
Well, it's a fairly skinny limb, Doctor.
No, absolutely not.
Yes, it is, too.
Fred Lashley, who is, I think, arguably the foremost memory expert, he made the point, he said that at the end of his life, he said if he didn't know it were impossible, He would think memories were stored outside the brain.
You have people like Rupert Sheldrake, who... Well, I'm not... I'm certainly not saying it's impossible, not by any means.
I'm just saying that the brain is an organism to some degree, we understand.
Sure, but more of a transmitter, more of a, you know, more of a allowing us to access information back and forth and actually storing memory inside the brain.
I'll just tell you this much, they can't find it.
They take rats, they teach them how to run mazes, Then they chop up those brains to try to find out where the memory trace of how to run that maze is, and they can't find it.
They slice and dice those rats' brains and... Oh, you're making a good point.
And in fact, I think that a lot of times humans can lose a very large portion of their brain and still be just fine, huh?
Sure.
Well, I first actually got this idea when I was in medical school when I was at Johns Hopkins and took care of a patient in which we removed half of his brain.
There you are.
One half of his brain.
And yet that guy, after he recovered, talked, walked, acted normally.
You know, you could have spent an hour with him and you would never have known that he had one half of his brain.
Well, how is that possible unless we start to think of the brain as some sort of holographic memory In other words, Rush Limbaugh shouldn't be bragging about having a brain because he could function just as well with it, right?
Well, I've seen it for myself.
When I realized that, I said, wait a minute.
That just totally twisted my brain around.
How could they remove half this guy's brain and yet he's still acting normally?
When half the brain was removed, that's incredible.
Were there any missing memories?
No.
No, absolutely not.
And this has been shown in animal research as well.
And I started to say, Rupert Sheldrake is a very well-respected evolutionary biologist.
He came to this conclusion independently, in which he feels the best understanding of modern evolutionary biology is that we are constantly resonating With some sort of pattern of information outside of our body that really codes for the information that allows us to be uniquely human or any animals are resonating with their sort of perfect animal image.
Take this one on then.
I'm sure you know the story of the lady who received, I think, heart and lung transplants all at once from a young man.
Yeah.
She awakened She had all the urgings that a young man would have, wanted things that she never wanted before, and then had a dream and dreamed her donor's name.
Oh gosh, and there's more.
Those sort of anecdotes abound.
Well, maybe they do, but it's a true story.
How could that possibly, possibly be unless memory perhaps is stored Throughout our body.
Those stories make my point, Art, is that memory is not necessarily stored in our brain.
You know that we have memories... I'm helping you here.
Does that mean that it's a collective thing?
Sure.
It's got to be something along those lines.
I don't think we fully... Well, what I hope with my theory, Art, is that my theories ultimately will be proven wrong, but in the process of proving them wrong, we'll learn what the real story is.
But at least I provided a template where we can now start to look at this stuff in a critical way, instead of just, you know, before everyone was just kind of, woo woo, isn't that weird, remote viewing, or past life memories, etc.
You know, now I've actually, you know, I've said, hey, look, here's this area in our brain.
Maybe it allows us to communicate with the world at large, pick up energy body, you know, energy patterns throughout our body, throughout the rest of the universe.
You know, we can start to tease that apart and see if it's really true or not.
What are ghosts, doctor?
Well, I think ghosts are very similar to what you were talking about earlier with echoes.
I think that ghosts are just memory patterns embedded in nature that, you know, similar to the things that your, you
know, not your patient, but you know, the young woman you described that saw things out in the MRI scanner.
Oh, that young woman, yes.
Think about what ghost stories are usually.
Usually they involve very highly emotional events.
Killings, battles, or something like that.
Let me give you an example of a cool ghost story that illustrates this.
There's an archaeologist working over in Turkey.
He kept seeing every night this person loading dead bodies onto a mule and taking them off somewhere.
He saw a very stereotyped vision of it.
He saw a certain angle of the man and the mule and the body draped over it.
Many years later, he was in the Gallipoli area in Turkey.
Many years later, he happens to see a postage stamp from Australia, which depicted the very man he saw, in fact, the very scene he saw.
But this was a postage stamp that was developed by an artist ten years after this person had, you know, this archaeologist had his, you know, his ghostly vision.
Yes, but it must have been commemorating some historical event.
Exactly, it was.
In fact, this was a I've forgotten some hero in Australia.
I've forgotten exactly who it was.
And so you have the entire consciousness of Australia with the many tragic deaths at Gallipoli, and they've memorialized it into their mind into this postage stamp image that an artist created.
And here you have an archaeologist who taps into that same idealized vision, but instead
in his, you know, the way he interprets it is he actually sees it as the person, you
know, out on the field gathering up bodies.
But he couldn't actually be seeing it.
You know, it's not as simple as that he actually saw, you know, the ghost, you know, of that
person, because if that was true, why wouldn't he have seen the person's face and, you know,
different views and you know etc.
No, he only saw that very stylized version of this person that was then later commemorated on the postage stamp.
So he was tapping into an idealized vision.
You know, do you see what I'm saying?
Yes.
But he wasn't actually seeing, you know, the reincarnated person living in nature as, you know, we imagine a ghost as some sort of a, you know, like a gaseous vapor.
You know, obviously it wasn't as simple as that.
He was tapping into a memory trace, a memory trace that actually wasn't created until 10 years into the future.
Well, why not?
If he's tapping it from a timeless place, he's going to obviously be able to access information from the future.
That sounds like remote viewing.
Absolutely.
And remote viewing is well established.
Again, only skeptics who are unfamiliar with the literature, I'll put it to you that way, dispute remote viewing.
So now, do you think that your research, as you have articulated it tonight, removes the fear of dying?
Oh, absolutely.
I'm not afraid to die.
First of all, why?
I mean, if you think there's going to be a brief little spurt of consciousness and then blackness... There's one piece of information that I've learned from children that, you know, we haven't really talked about, and that is that something that is so important to you accompanies you and helps you with the dying experience.
And, you know, with children you see this so dramatically, you know, they'll tell you that either Uh, maybe it was their blankie, maybe it was a pet who died.
Yes.
Um, you know, but for example, for me, if my wife dies before me, I have no doubt that when I die, I will see my wife again.
And that in itself... But just for a very short time though, huh?
Well, I didn't say that.
I don't know what... I mean, we don't know what's going to happen after that short time.
I mean, I'm hoping that it continues.
Nevertheless, I'm not afraid to die.
I know that the process itself is very spiritual, and it involves comforting people from your own life.
What could be better than that?
Well, the difference is, I'm looking forward to the beginning of an adventure.
I got an email that I want to run by you.
It was so simple, so quick.
And it just, the email just said, beginning, and there was an underline after beginning, and the text of the email said, my death was not as I expected.
Yeah, well that's what they all tell me.
I mean, people that have the near-death experience are not afraid to die, that's for sure.
No, no, no, that's not people who have died.
Doctor, you talk to people who, in your own words, have been in a deep Yeah, they haven't died.
You haven't talked about people who have died.
You've talked about people who have almost died.
People who have come to the last few minutes of life.
That's right.
Yeah, do not describe it as a scary or unpleasant experience.
Now, I certainly lost my fear of death.
I want to awake to the meaning of this, you know, this email.
My death was... If I can consider the manner of my death, then obviously I'm off on a new adventure, right?
Correct.
Yeah, okay.
Stay right there.
We're at the top of the hour.
This is really, really interesting.
Getting a doctor, a physician to open up this way, you don't hear it all that frequently.
I'm Art Bell.
You could rewind my love What a tale my thoughts could tell Just like an old time movie About a ghost from a wishing well In a castle dark Or a fortress strong With chains upon my heels You know that ghost is me.
And I will never be set free.
As long as I'm a ghost, you can't see me.
Be it sight, sound, smell, touch, there's something inside that we need so much.
The sight of the touch, or the scent of the sound, or the strength of an oak when it's deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
To have all of these things in our memories.
from the universe to hell.
I'll be back.
Well, call Art Bell from west to the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East to the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
east of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
And to reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
Tune in, indeed!
And we have Dr. Melvin Morris here.
Very, very interesting man.
Very interesting.
Not the usual NDE interviews that we get.
That's for sure.
And there's going to be more of it in a moment.
And yes, we're getting close to opening the phone lines.
So don't despair.
Crawl up near your phone.
Get comfortable.
Get ready.
It's getting close.
Here we go again.
Dr. Melvin Morse, back with us.
Doctor, I'm reading a little of the material I got from your website, and one of the things it says here is that the effects of near-death experiences Apparently, occasionally, in some way affect the immune system?
Absolutely.
How so and why so?
I think in two ways.
One way is that it causes a personality transformation, which is for the positive.
People that have near-death experiences generally feel connected with all of life.
They have kind of an optimistic, upbeat point of view.
They think that their lives have meaning, and just that alone will boost your immune system.
I believe that.
It's good for you to be happy.
It's good for you to feel wanted.
It's good for you to feel that your job is meaningful, and people who have those perceptions live longer and have healthier lives.
In fact, we showed that people with near-death experiences take fewer over-the-counter medications They have fewer symptoms of depression.
They have less drug use.
You know, sort of like having a near-death experience and never need an aspirin again is what I learned from studying this.
Yes, but... But then there's also, I think, the more dramatic healings that we see in which people are cured of cancers or I had a patient once that was cured of a fatal liver disease.
And these seem to involve some kind of wholesale restructuring of our DNA, probably mediated by this interaction with this universal energy pattern, or light, or God, or whatever you want to call it.
Oh, whatever you want to call it.
Yeah, the non-local reality, I don't know.
You know, Doctor, take Daniel Brinkley as an example.
Sure.
The two of you would agree to a certain point And then you'd really disagree, because Danion will tell you, don't fear death, it's not the end, it's only the beginning.
Sure, but he's had this experience, but there's one thing that Danion and I agree with, and that is that the experience itself is of tremendous importance for dying patients, and that we need to start to educate them that the process of dying is spiritually dynamic, it's not to be feared, I've tried to twist your brain so many times, I'm going to give you one more little teaser.
If we listened up to near-death experiences and we forgot all this business about life after death and we just understood that they're real and they happen to us when we die, I believe we could save four billion dollars a year in this country in health care costs.
How could I make such a dramatic statement?
Because we spend four billion dollars a year in this country unnecessarily over-treating and over-medicating dying patients, providing them with care that will not prolong life one second, care that they usually don't want, care that physicians usually don't want to deliver but just feel sort of like the machine just grinds on.
But doctor, we're giving them really a fairy tale.
No.
According to what you really believe, we're telling them a fairy tale.
Absolutely not.
No.
I haven't presented my position properly.
Yes, yes.
Entirely properly.
I get it entirely.
Oh, yes, I do.
Yes, I do.
You're saying, and I don't disagree with you, that the dying process is a very spiritual thing, something not to be feared.
But, you know, Daniel will say, hey, I'm looking forward to when I die.
Because it's, you know, it's just the beginning.
That's where you and Dannion really depart radically.
Sure, but a fairy tale is not doing justice to what I'm saying.
I'm saying this is of intense importance to you, the person who's dying, to the people who are around you, to your loved ones, to your... I mean, the knowledge that when you die you're conscious and awake Just as I started off the whole program, one of my close friends, just that knowledge brought him to tears because he knew he said goodbye to his father.
I mean, so, you know, it has the power to reverse the isolation of a dying patient, to bring back the old deathbed scene, you know, to get rid of these irrational rules and taboos that we have surrounding dying patients.
Really, to break the whole taboo of death altogether, you know, right now, I mean, when patients die, nobody wants to be around them.
Doctors spend less time at the bedside.
Relatives visit less frequently.
And yet, they're undergoing this very dynamic spiritual experience that has intense meaning, gives them a tremendous insight and understanding into life.
They have something to teach us dying patients, too.
And that alone could trigger A cascade of sort of benefits, which would include, in my opinion, the withering away of all this unnecessary medical technology.
I really believe that.
You know, just forget about life after death.
Just focusing on what we do know.
That when, you know, the whole thing, when we die, that alone could save us $4 billion a year.
So that's not a fairy tale.
That's, you know, in our country.
You know, anything that's going to save healthcare dollars.
Well, I'll put it to you a different way.
In the near-death experience of a pill, we would be ordering it by the bucket load.
Doctors would be prescribing it like crazy.
That all sounds very practical, and I believe that you're exactly right.
I'm sure it would save in healthcare and all the rest of it.
But that's not enough for you, Art.
It's got to be proof of life after death, too!
Well, I don't know.
I think that's still going to, at least at this point, still an issue of faith.
Not necessarily for science to address.
Well, fine.
That's fine.
But I'm just being really blunt, and I'm saying that you must agree, then, when people are told stories of How it's going to be so wonderful and there's going to be a whole new experience and you're going to go to heaven where all your relatives are going to be and you're going to, whatever concept of heaven you have, is going to be eternally yours.
Yeah.
And then aren't we weaving a fairy tale according to your belief system?
Well, not really my belief system.
I'm just telling you what the objective evidence is.
Objective evidence.
You know, my belief system would be, you know, you believe in things like life after death, etc.
But what does the science tell us?
Yeah, sure.
I think that the science tells us that we get so far and then we don't know what's after that.
How do you feel about the concept of, you know, we're actually perhaps getting close in the next hundred years or so, To not dying.
It may well be that science will develop a way for us to remain essentially alive forever, barring some... Well, I think we're certainly going to be living to at least 100 or 120.
I think, you know, people who are born today are most likely going to live to be 100 or 110 or 120.
I agree.
Well, that's, yes, that's in the near term, but eventually If they find all the right keys, they could virtually stop aging, and some researchers, Doctor, even say regress it.
Yeah, to me that's exciting.
I don't really crave getting old, that's for sure.
So that would be the ultimate goal of somebody who thinks that there's a very good chance that even though you would have this experience when you die, essentially there'd be lights out after that.
Well, I am a physician.
My goal is to prolong life as long as possible.
What's after death?
I don't know.
I agree with you.
Well, I don't know.
It's hard to say.
You've actually opened a crack in my thinking.
I don't know.
I think we just have to wait and see what more we learn about these experiences.
I think there's a lot we could do right now to look into what you're saying.
There's a guy named Michael Persinger up in Canada.
He's learned to stimulate this area of the brain.
He's actually been able to induce this God experience.
Yes, I've been hearing about that.
So I think that the next step then is to take his apparatus and let's see whether people who have the induced God experience can communicate with the dead or can demonstrate paranormal talents.
You know, I think once we start looking at those kinds of issues, that's going to be a lot more convincing to me.
You know, most of the people that you interview on your show that communicate with the dead, you know, after all, you know, our professionals, I mean, they have kind of a bad track record in terms of being clever, convent, and such as that.
I'm saying generically the field.
Whereas if someone like Michael Persinger is able to, you know, take one of his college students, stimulate the right temporal lobe, and And that college student discovers he can communicate with a dead relative.
That would be very convincing to me.
And that's what's exciting to me about my research.
At least it points to new avenues of research.
At least it looks at ways of trying to study these issues.
Well, I start to become convinced when there is contemporary information relayed.
That's what convinces me.
Otherwise, I'm kind of with you.
An active human brain can probably draw from whatever source we care to name its own brain or an external source, as you theorize, memories of that person that I think sort of remain forever.
Yeah.
Well, like we're talking about with ghosts.
But what I'm searching for here, Doctor, is consciousness after death.
Consciousness after death.
And contemporary information that's relayed Well, it goes a pretty long way toward proving that, so that's the kind of research I would like to see, and I'm sure you would like to be convinced of.
Correct, but that research, to my knowledge, does not exist today.
You have people that, I think, demonstrate that kind of thing, but I don't know, you know, you just always wonder, you know, whereas I think if it could be reliably replicated in a laboratory setting.
Now, there is one interesting piece of research I'm sure you're familiar with Dean Radin out of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas.
Just over the hill from me, although I hadn't expound a bit.
Well, he took college students and he showed them slides, either of pleasant scenes or very unpleasant scenes, you know, car accidents and the like.
Yes.
And he hooked them up to measure their blood pressure and their heart rate and such as that.
And he found that these college students would actually anticipate When they were going to see an unpleasant scene, meaning that even though these slides are shown randomly, their bodies somehow knew, you know, their heart rate would rise and their blood pressures would rise before they were shown an unpleasant slide.
And, you know, that's I think a fairly convincing piece of evidence That there's something going on, but that's not a communication like you're saying with contemporary evidence from another consciousness.
That's not a piece of consciousness type of research, but I think that that type of study could be done to try to look at the issue of can we communicate with other consciousnesses.
When you have patients that are near death and they ask you Well, I tell them, first of all, that the perceptions that they have are real.
That, I think, is tremendously important right there.
I reassure them that what's happening to them is not some sort of meaningless hallucination of their mind, but that it's as real as the experiences of any other experience.
You know, let them know that the experience that they have may not precisely match, you know, what our cultural stereotype of the experience is.
I have many people that have had profound experiences, but they'll say, but it wasn't a near-death experience because I didn't see a tunnel.
Or, you know, it wasn't a near-death experience because, you know, X, Y, or Z didn't happen.
And, you know, that is the importance of understanding it comes from our own personal psychology.
And then I encourage them just to try to understand their own meaning of the experience.
These experiences usually have some sort of powerful spiritual meaning to the person.
All you really have to do is validate it.
I don't handle it any differently than, for example, when I'm dealing with a mom that has a baby that cries all night.
I just look at that mom and I'll say, boy, it must be really, you know, tell me what it's like, you know, what's it like with a baby that cries all night?
Doctor, what would you think?
That the audience, which is very religious out there, would be thinking about what you've said this morning.
Well, a lot of religious people are offended by what I have to say.
That's for sure.
I have this little thing called Fast Blast where I can get comments from my audience on the internet as the show progresses.
Yeah.
And here's one from somebody named Dr. Suck.
And the message is, see you in hell.
A little hint of what may be coming, you never know.
But you've been really honest and really forthright, and I really commend you for that.
It does conflict with a lot of people's deeply held religious beliefs.
Yeah, obviously, of course it does, sure it does.
But, you know, let's face it, I mean, you know, these are just Books written thousands of years ago for different cultures, I think the idea that we sort of cling to them, and yet here we have an area in our brain which allows us to directly communicate with God.
I think that people should start to use their own abilities to find their own valid spiritual and religious experiences and not be so dependent On someone else's religious vision, which is after all, I think, you know, what you're dealing with when you're dealing with, you know, these different religions or Bibles or what have you.
All right.
I would like to tentatively go to the phones here and see what we get.
I think I have a pretty good hint.
But I would ask my audience, you folks out there, keep it civil, because I'm seeing these comments that are coming in.
And I know what they mean.
It means there's a bunch of people out there with Bible in their hair right now, and they're stompin' on it, and they're dialin', and they're stompin' on it, and they're dialin', and when they get in, look out!
So, we'll just, we'll see what we get out there.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hi, good evening, gentlemen.
This is the Zen Man from Alaska.
The Zen Man from Alaska.
The Zen Man.
Yes, you know, I used to know a woman who had a son that was in a car accident, And he was in a coma for two months.
And when he awoke, I had an opportunity to speak with him.
He said he was fully aware for something like what seemed to him to be a couple hours.
Which kind of goes back to what the doctor said about timeless, spaceless space.
Almost like he woke up from a short nap.
Yes.
And he didn't see a tunnel and he didn't see his body or anything.
But he did say he went to a beautiful and comfortable place.
He said there was a great elder or master that greeted him.
Oh, that's frequent.
Yeah, and he said that he asked the elder where he was, and the elder told him that a human moves upward through spheres of increasingly higher consciousness, based on one's capacity for compassion and love.
Oh, and he also said that the place seemed more real to him than this place.
Yes, a realer than real is what one child told me.
He said to me, I said, did you think it was real?
It was realer than real!
Now this brings me to my question for the doctor.
In the movie Flatliners, there was an element of karmic retribution.
Now doctor, you said that the little girl intimated to you that she went to a fun place.
I was wondering, have you heard of anyone ever having a panoramic life review like Daniel Brinkley, where their behavior and life is specifically accounted for?
Well, I mostly deal with children, and so it's been pointed out to me that maybe children are immune from that kind of thing, or what have you.
I honestly don't know, but children typically don't have these complex life reviews, and children usually have just very kind of brief, powerful experiences.
It's just really a fragment of experience.
Well, why wouldn't they have the same thing?
I used to put snakes in my lunchbox when I'd come home from school.
My mom would open it and, well, I'd be in terrible trouble.
But, you know, I did a lot of things that would be considered generally negative for a child.
So why wouldn't a child go through the same sort of review?
And why would they be immune?
I can tell you.
All I can tell you is I don't hear that kind of thing.
I'll tell you the typical child near-death experience.
This is a girl that we put a needle into her heart to resuscitate her.
All right, hold that thought.
Obviously, we can't get started now.
We will in a moment.
A needle into the heart to resuscitate.
Maybe there's nothing after all of that.
A brief little experience and a couple of sweet dreams.
And then it's down the dark highway.
I don't know.
From the high desert, it's a little different tonight, isn't it?
I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
Going through the night like a freight train.
Don't touch that dial.
Sweet dreams are made of this.
Who am I to disagree?
Travel the world and the seven seas Everybody's looking for something
Some of them want to use you Some of them want to get used by you
Follow the city streets to the sea Lights from the neon turn the dark to day
Things were too hard to take, believe me We had to get out before the magic got away
In the mornin' with the night.
I'm playin' in the shadows.
I'll play in the shadows I'll touch you at night
Till the morning light Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh
From West of the Rockies at 1-800-9-4-0-0 East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
It is indeed, and I've got a really good guest, Dr. Melvin Morris.
I understand the Christians out there are saying, No, he's not a good guest.
He doesn't believe what I believe.
That doesn't make him a bad guest.
That just means you don't agree with him.
There's a big difference.
He's a really good guest.
He's opened up more than any physician that I think I've ever talked to.
Actually, he's fascinating.
And we'll continue with him momentarily.
It's that kind of a night, isn't it?
All right, back now to Dr. Melvin Morris.
Hi, Dr. Morris.
Welcome back.
Thank you very much.
All right.
Here's somebody who says, is Walter from Odessa, Texas.
If a ghost is an echo, how was I physically attacked more than once by it?
I'd like to hear more about that story.
Let's hear what that story is.
Oh, listen, doctor.
I do a program.
In fact, I'm going to do one at the end of next week called Ghost to Ghost.
In which I just let people tell ghost stories, and the stories of physical attacks are legion.
Sure.
But are they really ghost stories?
Or are they, you know... When I'm talking about a ghost story, the typical kind of ghost story is, you know, a house that's haunted, a place that's haunted.
For example, one very famous ghost story involves a World War II plane that was in a museum in one location, And they move the plane, and sure enough, the ghosts move with it.
Well, so, you know, to me, that's, you know, that's, I think, a memory embedded in nature.
Why?
In other words, if... If they were actual beings... How does the fact that a ghost would move with an airplane or with a home... Oh, I see, you're saying maybe these ghosts are living in this airplane as kind of a home.
That's what I'm suggesting, yes.
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't feel I'm on shaky ground here.
Over a hundred years ago, the scientists at the time investigated ghost stories from the American Psychical Research Society and the British counterpart, and they actually concluded the same thing.
Let me tell you a ghost story then.
They're like the people that give the snuffed candle award.
No, these were people who were really trying to honor the people that give the snuff candle award.
They're not real skeptics.
They actually have a religious point of view.
A lot of times when you do a study, you start out with a bias and you end up with a bias.
No, well, Psychops doesn't claim that they do studies.
No, but they're biased, though.
Right, because they have a religious point of view.
Their religious point of view happens to be that there is no God or there is no consciousness or nothing exists outside the body, but nevertheless, I bought a house on the Oregon coast, and it was haunted by a ghost.
think you can uh...
and put them in the same catch let me i i just real quick i think i bought a
house in the oregon coast and it was haunted by a ghost
and we heard the footsteps of the ghost all the time and we heard a door opening
and then we saw the footsteps uh... really you know yeah
and you know keep going and you know we thought to ourselves well this must be
some sort of you know ghost You heard footsteps, or you actually saw footprints, or what?
No, we heard them.
And we didn't just hear them.
We would occasionally rent the place out, and our renters would also make the same comments.
Well, no, see, that should have modified your attitude a little bit.
Not at all, because listen to the end of the story.
Okay.
So, the house, we had bought it from an old woman who had lived there her whole life, so we thought that, of course, you know, she had died and her ghost still lived in this house.
Yes.
Well, it turns out she was still alive, Art.
We were haunted, not by a ghost, but we were haunted by the pattern of her life.
You know, every day at 10 o'clock, or every night at 10 o'clock, she would get out of bed, walk across the floor, open the closet door, put back her slippers, walk back, and get back in bed.
And we were haunted by a pattern, by a pattern of being.
But she was still alive!
Awfully, awfully, awfully good point, Doctor.
So you were haunted by the imprinted pattern of her life?
Yes.
Now, I'm not saying that there aren't beings that we can encounter, From other dimensions or other realities.
And that's what I think people are talking about when they're saying they're attacked by a ghost.
I think that falls more into the category of, you know, these people that encounter alien beings while they're in a lucid state of sleep.
Or, you know, or such as that.
People that encounter angels or demonic beings, etc.
Do you allow for their existence?
Oh, of course.
You do angels and demonic beings?
Oh, there's no question in my mind that angels exist.
If you pay attention to your own life, R, you can find angels.
And I've seen angels in my own life.
Well, all right then, Doctor.
Let's define angel.
Sure.
Angel, please.
Okay.
You know, our reality is based on certain leptons and muons and certain subatomic particles.
Well, we know That there's at least two other realities which are based on similar subatomic particles.
So, you know, that's well known, and we can speculate... Okay, you're describing a realm.
Describe an angel, please.
Well, an angel would just be, to us, the perception of, you know, whatever those, you know, just like...
When we use our mind to encounter this universal sort of timeless, spaceless place, people from, you know, other universes also can use their mind to encounter this timeless, spaceless place.
And so I see the interactions between those, you know, these different sentient beings.
This is what we call angels.
An angel wouldn't be, for example, an entity that has been with God and has been cast down.
Well, that's often the interpretation that we put on it.
Other people encounter angels and think that they're UFOs, and other people encounter angels and think that, you know, and I've heard lots of angel stories in which the angels are perceived as just being ordinary citizens, or the one angel that happens, you know, in my own personal life, presented just as a medic, just seemed to all intents and purposes.
Let me give you a quick example.
To you, that angel for that person would be an echo, wouldn't it?
Well, let me give you an example that is not quite an echo.
There's a woman psychiatrist from Russia and she had a recurring experience in which she was out of her body and she was uh... you know presented herself to a group of people
who are very astonished to see her and asked uh... her to uh... he'll ha
uh... you know different ailments they hadn't such that this is a recurring
dream that she had yes she then uh... traveled to a distant place uh... in russia
and uh...
just to have a very circumstances encountered
people had a
folk beliefs that a woman that look just like her
would occur to them would appear to them can interact with them and have
different uh... encounters and belief
So, you know, she was their angel.
And yet she was just a living human being.
She was just basically communicating with them through time or through this timeless, spaceless place.
They just misinterpreted her as being an angel.
She, in fact, was just a person from the future.
They were just perceiving her energy patterns and interacting with her just the way people interact with after-death communications.
Well, in her case, you wouldn't call it an echo.
She was a real person.
Yes, I hear very clearly what you're saying.
You know, if when you die, Dr. Morris, you go through the white tunnel, go whizzing through, end up at the pearly gates, and there's a real traditional religious setting there, and a guy way up high on a table with a white beard is going to look down on you and say, All right, Doctor, you've got a lot of talking to do.
Yeah, I'll be humbled, that's for sure.
All right, listen, listen, here we go.
We've got to get the phones a little bit.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Dr. Morse.
Hi, Art.
Hi.
This is Dave in Pahrump.
Hi, Dave.
Oh, here in town?
Yeah.
Wow.
And I have a question for Dr. Morse.
Actually, yeah, a question.
And I'll need your help, because I've been listening this week, and And everything he's saying coincides with Whitley's new book, I mean... The Key.
The Key.
Yes.
And his conversation with that man.
And then there was an analogy made on another show where God was a lonely being who exploded.
Yes.
And it's what we now know as our universe, I guess.
That was a big bang.
Yeah.
Yes, I am familiar with that.
So if, when we die, And that 20% of our brain is responsible and well we know that like a half ounce or something like that escapes our body.
I'll tell Dr. Morse about that.
Okay, well wouldn't it be logical to think that 20% is the energy leaving our body and becoming the energy of the universe and that we are in fact going back to what Some may call God.
To which, Dr. Morris, I guess you would say what?
Well, maybe.
I didn't know that there was evidence that some piece of energy or something left our body.
Well, let me tell you a little story, and I'm going to have to ask Keith, my webmaster, to dig for it.
I heard this as a sort of a myth for years, that there had been a real medical study done, A long time ago, late 1800s, early 1900s, I can't remember, a long time ago, that put people up on a scale, a very sensitive scale, and waited for the moment of death.
Now, I have a copy of this medical study.
They actually did this, and they observed the loss of between A half and three quarters of an ounce at the instant of death.
Can you imagine any scientific reason in the world why that could be true?
Well, when you stop breathing, I guess you stop exchanging water.
When you're breathing, you lose quite a bit of water and you gain quite a bit of water.
Not at the very instant.
They actually put people who were dying up there.
You know, is that a reference on your website?
I would love to read that.
It will be.
I'll get it up there for you.
I've had it up there, oh, I don't know, a couple of years ago.
Oh, gosh.
I couldn't believe it, but I did.
Because I've heard of that, but I've never actually seen the study or known that that was a real study.
I wonder if people, you know, reproduce that today.
Well, you think, Doctor.
In today's politically correct world, could you do such an experiment?
No way.
Yeah.
No way.
I don't know.
That's something I would have to review.
You know, I'm not saying I'm skeptical.
Well, I am pretty skeptical of it.
What kind of scales they had and how accurate they were.
They were good scales.
It's all described in the study, of course.
Otherwise, it wouldn't be legit.
Now, one other thing.
They tested all kinds of dogs and cats.
And here's something I really disagree with.
Noted no loss of weight whatsoever when they passed.
None.
Only in humans.
Well, you know, I agree with you.
I agree for a change.
We do agree here.
And that is that if you imagine a soul of substance in a human, then anybody who's got a pet and loves your pet knows they have souls too.
I always thought that a soul would be something immaterial that you, you know, that would then, of course, defy being a soul.
I agree.
The caller pointed out the study, and I just had to say it, in fact, was done.
Well, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to read it.
Oh, I'll get it.
Don't find it.
It's buried somewhere in the archives.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Melvin Morse.
Hi.
Hello.
Going once.
Hello.
Yes, hello.
I see you are there.
Barely.
I'm here.
Yes.
My name is Shane, and I'm calling from Charleston, West Virginia.
Hi, Shane.
How you doing?
Alright.
Hello, Dr. Morris.
Hi.
I need to get the doctor's opinion on something that happened to me when I was about 20 years old.
Incidentally, this is unrelated, Mr. Bell.
I am an operator for WQBE AM950, and I've been with you since the beginning.
Oh, that's a long time.
Oh, I see.
Well, that's a short time, actually.
But I'm glad you've been there.
I had a really good friend in high school, and he was killed in a rock climbing accident.
Well, a couple of weeks before he died, he and I were sitting around a campfire, and he was telling me about a dream he had involving his grandfather, who had passed away several years before.
He said his grandfather had come to him in this dream and took him into the wall, his words.
And he said to me very seriously, I think it's my time to go.
You know, being 18, 19 years old, we're laughing.
Oh, come on, you know.
I didn't take it seriously.
Well, two weeks later, he was killed.
Yeah.
And this was rather disturbing for everybody when they'd heard about the dream, you know.
What made it even worse was the fact that he was buried in a mausoleum wall next to his grandfather.
Interesting.
Wow.
So it made it worse, it wasn't of comfort to you then?
Well, it seemed to me that he knew.
I guess my question is, I don't really have a specific question, I just wanted to get your opinion on it.
Well, I certainly have documented many, many such cases.
In fact, we did a study of mothers who had infants die of sudden infant death.
And we showed that about 25 to 30% of the time, they also had vivid premonitions, not of course that they were going to die, but that their infant was going to die.
These are vivid premonitions, things that they would write down in journals, lucid dreams, not just the ordinary fears that a parent might have.
Certainly, we know from studies of adults that many adults know a week or two Before they die, and usually it is because they've had some sort of a dream or spiritual vision.
That's precognition, right?
Oh, correct.
Yeah, a very nice study in the medical literature and the nursing journals in which they actually had a control group.
You know, they looked at patients who didn't die, looked at their dreams and their visions, you know, over a two-week period, and then they looked at, you know, the dreams and the visions of people who did die.
And sure enough, they showed that people had these kinds of dreams, and they usually had this kind of a flavor, you know, a dead relative coming to them, you know, such as that.
I would have discounted it as kind of coincidence, but he did say specifically that his grandfather brought him into the wall.
Yeah, yeah.
He seemed to believe that death was kind of a dimensional thing, that when you die, you actually move to a different A level of consciousness.
And a while after that, a few, I would say a couple years later, I started having this dream that he was trying to talk to me.
Yeah.
And I could remember everything that he said up to a point.
He would say, I'm going to tell you something you have to remember when you wake up.
Yeah.
And at that point, I can't remember what he told me.
Well, you need to go to bed at night with a pad of paper and a pencil.
And you should just, you know, spend like a few minutes doing some sort of brief self-calming or self-hypnosis, a regimen like, you know, tensing your muscles in sequence or something like that.
And then you should just ask him, you know, just right before, try to make it your last thought before you go to sleep, you know, tell me what is it you're trying to say.
And then when you wake up in the morning, write down your very first thought, not your second thought, not your third thought, but that very first thought.
It's a great technique to tap into what that dream is trying to tell you.
Okay.
Alright, thank you very much for the call.
Now, what I took out of that, Doctor, that was interesting was that most people, by way of premonition, or just, you know, if it's a woman, feminine intuition, whatever you want to call it, know they're going to die.
Yes, I agree.
Yeah.
You know, that's the more exciting part of my research to me.
You know, that the same area of the brain that allows us to have the near-death experience is the same area of the brain that accounts for our everyday intuition.
Yeah, the intuition is not... See, I'm going to say this one more time.
Why is all of this all that exciting if there is a brief spurt and then followed by blackness or Or just being a memory circulating out in the ether eternally, but nothing that resembles consciousness.
Why is it exciting?
Because it's a short little thing.
You know, I guess I've been around so many children that have near-death experiences that have emphasized to me, they say it again and again, that what they learn from their near-death experience is that life is for living and the light is for later.
Yes, however, they came back to consider that.
Well, that's true.
I mean, they have the luxury of making those mistakes.
That's right.
That's right.
Hold on, Doctor.
We're going to break here at the top of the hour.
we'll be right back.
Thank you for watching.
And we'll see you next time.
Bye.
Difficult to strike, I did.
To find an answer on the road.
I used to be a hard beating, both on one.
But the times have changed.
But the times have changed And if I stay no more, my work gets done
Cause I've been breathing in the deadly of freedom From the day that I was born I've been denied
I've been in the dumps of freedom, looking knee-high to the man
Give me peace of mind my friend, never mind Stand by.
This is really gonna be interesting.
Wanna take a ride?
Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator
and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
I'll tell you something, Keith Rowland is really good.
During the news break, I was able to get the doctor on his computer
and Keith got up before a thunderclap could occur and got this article that we've been talking about
the web and i let the doctor right to it And as we speak right now, he's reading it.
The article, it's a very rare article, and so the rest of you may want to see it too.
The way you do it is go to my website, click on program, and then tonight's Let's see, what does it say?
Tonight's guest info.
And you'll see a bunch of links that relate to what we're doing tonight with a good doctor.
And then you'll see the newest link at the bottom of that list, which is the medical study that we were talking about a little while ago that the doctor said he would have to see.
It's entitled, Soul Substance.
It's from American Medicine, April of 1907.
It continues, Hypothesis Concerning Soul Substance Together with Experimental Evidence of the Existence of Such Substance by Duncan McDougall, M.D.
of Haverhill, Massachusetts.
And it documents the experiments that I just talked to you about regarding weight and the soul and loss of that weight at the instant, the exact instant of death.
And so the doctor is reading that article that he said he'd love to see right now.
You can too by going to my website.
You should preserve it.
It's a very rare study, very hard to find, and I always thought it was myth until I got the hard copy, and now you can too.
Oh, this is going to be interesting.
So now, back to Dr. Melvin Morse, and I imagine you've not had an opportunity to read all of this.
No, no, I've read it all.
Oh, no kidding.
I'm very impressed.
Really?
You know, I always thought that this was either a myth, or one of these urban legends, or some, you know, study out of Russia, or something like that.
Right.
From American medicine, which at the time was, you know, one of the better journals And, you know, the concerns that I had when you first brought it up.
Remember, I was saying about respiratory effort and the, you know, just when you breathe, you take in a lot of moisture.
Yes, as you see, it's addressed.
It's all addressed in the article.
But, boy, he really, for your listeners, he looked at about six patients.
They made every effort to account for how much The dying patients were losing in terms of their respiratory effort, and he's very specific that his scale is extremely accurate, can measure one-tenth of an ounce.
That's a very impressive study.
Something to think about.
That's for sure.
He himself, the author, points out that it has to be replicated and other people had to do it.
We wonder why other people didn't pick up the ball.
Yes, but you know today you wouldn't get away with it.
You could never do a study like that today.
That could only be done back in the grand old days of medicine where there was no informed
consent and they could do whatever they wanted.
We'll leave it at that, Doctor.
I'm glad we were able to impress you, and I hope the audience will go up there and read it as well, because for many people, it has sort of been a myth and dismissed, by the way, as a myth.
Oh, I've heard that, but that's not true.
Well, Ron... You know, I have spent years looking for this article.
Well, I have spent years, too, until I found it.
For American medicine, and other people, they should at least know that the author says that in all cases, right at the point of death, the scale dropped.
And he monitored these patients anywhere from, you know, it sounds like four or six hours or such as that, and he's very rigorous in his design, you know, the patients Uh, that he screwed up and he, you know, he wasn't ready to measure them and they suddenly died unexpectedly, and not just that, he includes that and all of that.
Wow.
It's all there.
All right, um, to the phones.
First time we call our line, you're on the air with Dr. Melvin Morse.
Hello?
Ardell?
Yes.
Mark, The Spark, West Palm Beach, Florida.
Hi, Mark, welcome.
Hi, listen, great show.
I love your show.
Welcome back.
Thank you.
Okay, my doctor, uh, the doctor, I have a question for you.
I, I was shocked.
By electricity.
I was an electrician for a lot of years.
And I received a shock by high voltage.
It was 220 volts.
And since then, it wasn't a near-death experience, but at the time it happened, I was on a ladder.
And I fell off the ladder, and I seemed to be disconnected.
I was there, but my vision was like a TV screen at 3 in the morning when the station goes off the air.
And it lasted for about half an hour.
And what I was wondering is, Now I have these very vivid, powerful dreams, and I wonder, do you think there's any connection or relation to that?
Oh, absolutely!
How do you know you didn't have a near-death experience?
That's what I'm saying.
It was amazing, and by the way, Art, I caught your show last night, and I just wanted to let you know, I've had five MRIs.
And so I've been exposed to that magnetic field that you're talking about.
I'm just... With any effect, or do you think perhaps that is an answer for what we're talking about right now?
I'm not sure, but one of the MRIs that I had was what they call the full series of shots, I guess.
Yes.
And I was in there for about 25 minutes.
And while I was in there, I actually was able to fall asleep, but these really, really vivid dreams, like, and they seemed Completely real, but when it came out, I found that I had dozed off.
Well, we studied people that had near-death experiences, and we found that their psychic abilities were clearly heightened.
We looked at adults that had near-death experiences as children, and we found that they had more verifiable psychical experiences than professional psychics that we used as controls.
And this goes back to what we were talking about earlier, Art, about The importance of understanding how personal the experience is.
You know, you were saying, well, gosh, if the experience is so personalized, etc., well, that sort of devalues it.
But on the other hand, it helps to understand our scholar's experience, because our scholars certainly had a near-death experience, but it contained imagery that didn't fit with our conventional description of a near-death experience.
Well, all it devalues is The concept of consciousness continuing.
Sure.
That's all.
I'm not in any way devaluing the experience itself.
I'm sure it's very spiritual, very wonderful, comforting, eases death, and does all of that.
Heightens your psychical ability to activate the very brain.
All of that, yes.
Listen, since he brought that up, electrocution.
Did you hear the story I read the first hour before you got on the air?
Let me read it to you.
It's from Reuters News Service.
Mainstream news service, right?
Just in.
Electrocuted man rises from the dead.
A Kazakh man, as in Kazakhstan, who was electrocuted and buried, shocked his friends and family by turning up for his own funeral feast.
Now listen carefully.
The man was wrapped in a cloth shroud, according to Muslim tradition, buried in a shallow grave, After apparently dying while trying to steal power cables in Eastern Kazakhstan.
But get this, Doctor.
Two days later, he regained consciousness, rose naked from the ground, and actually they go on to say he had difficulty flagging down a vehicle to take him home.
Yes, I'm sure he did.
Two days in a shallow grave, buried.
You believe that?
I don't know what to think of that.
It's just hard for me to believe, I guess, because you just can't think.
I mean, you would think that decomposition would set in.
Certainly it doesn't fit with anything in my experience.
Well, that's Reuters News Service for you.
That doesn't make it golden.
I thought I'd read it.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Melton Morse.
Hi.
Hi, this is Mary in North Pole.
North Pole, Alaska.
Yes, yes.
For a long time I've been puzzled by, you know, why unpious people can work miracles.
And I started studying this a long time ago.
I'm laughing because I know an unpious person that worked a miracle.
Like, go on.
Yeah, I think it's a soft system of physics we're dealing with here.
And I've even said at times that Christ is a physicist, but my Christian friends don't like that, so I quit doing that.
But if you look at some of this, like, There's a vibrational weight within us, an energy.
I think Mesmer called it animal magnetism or something.
When that vibration quits, we lose weight.
When you spin a top at a certain speed, it will actually gain weight.
You have to get way high up there.
And then when it quits, it weighs less.
And I think this is somewhat of an explanation.
It's a real soft physics.
You can't put your finger on it.
I think if we get high-speed, variable-speed cameras, we're going to be able to pick up some of this energy that we're seeing walking around.
I think further than rods, this is going to happen.
Something about Mesmer, too, he was doing experiments with running wires from people's fingernails over to bathtubs where people had magnets around them sitting in salt water.
You know, I think maybe we should go back to some of his work, because there's something there.
Mary Eddie Baker was healed and then formed Christian Science Religion, and it's based on the Gimbley papers.
He was a lab assistant for Mesmer.
So all this stuff with magnetism, I think, is real interesting, and I think we're stumbling onto something.
Yeah, Messmer was doing work with Krillian photography also, and although he's noted as the father of hypnotism, there was a heck of a lot more going on there.
I know he was a Rosicrucian, which means he studied ancient Egyptian philosophy, sort of like in a form of physics, and so I thought that was interesting.
Also another thing about magnetism is there was a guy who went up to help measure one of the big pyramids.
This was way back in the early expeditions.
And he took a bottle of wine up there for him because he knew he'd be up there all day for lunch.
He opened it and got shocked so bad they had to go up and replace him.
And so the guy who went back up took a case of wine and they all charged up.
Well then in another find in Egypt they found these potteries with two electrodes.
Well, I would like to just comment on a couple of things.
Valerie Hunt, who's a Ph.D.
start of a handle or something and a physicist says, oh that's a battery.
Yeah, yeah. Alright, well thank you very much. You know, that's a lot of anecdotal stuff.
Well, I would like to just comment on a couple things.
Valerie Hunt, who's a PhD down at the, I think, University of California, Los Angeles, she
has done a lot of the same kind of work. So this kind of work is being done in a modern
sense.
She has actually mapped out the energy patterns surrounding people's bodies.
She's shown that these energy patterns change with different degrees of health.
She's even shown that people who have had near-death experiences have a unique Electromagnetic signature.
You know, our caller was kind of in a sort of in a rambling way, pointing at some research that I think is pretty interesting.
All right, I wanted, before I forget, earlier, I think I blocked it out mentally, before we had a break, you were describing a girl and you were sticking a needle in her... Oh yeah, because I got to tell you this story, because, you know, the point of the story I'm going to tell you now is uh... that i think when you look at children's experience and i think of the purest experiences you get at the heart of the matter which is that we really don't know what's going on and let me listen to what she told me okay we stuck a needle into her heart yes and she was resuscitated uh... so i asked her what she remembered about the time she was in the hospital we always asking these kind of broad open-ended question yes and she says to me she doesn't remember anything except she said that suddenly i remember that uh...
You were asking for that crash cart thing and the nurses were bringing it to you.
She said, and then you did something to me and she said, suddenly I saw my grandmother and I was just so shocked to see her.
And her grandmother, of course, had died.
And then she says to me, and then I was back.
And that was her whole experience.
And I said to her, well, what do you mean by that you were back?
And she clenched her fingers in frustration and pounded them on her knees.
And she said, that's what I've been trying to figure out.
And I think that that's what, you know, I think that an adult who had the same experience would blend in their own preconceptions, their religious beliefs, their, you know, and you go, you know, you hear these adult stories that just go on and on and on.
When you hear these children's stories, they are just these very brief impressions of something that they can't quite understand.
Well, Doctor, if I was conscious enough to see you coming at me with a needle that you were going to thrust into my heart, that would kill me, right?
Well, if I wasn't already dead, that would do it.
She was comatose when that happened.
Remembering, though, that so many patients described the procedures that went on, right?
That's true, but she did see her grandmother.
And her grandmother comforted her during this procedure, and then she says it's very enigmatic, and then I was back.
You know, I just can't... I can't understand how you can tell me these things and not make the leap of faith, which, after knowing so much as you know, it shouldn't be much of a leap for you.
I mean, when you tell me these stories, I'm almost... I want to ask you, well then, how can you not believe?
Yeah, I know, I know.
You know, I had my own experience, but my experience didn't give a hint of life after death.
I did have the experience... I know, I know, but a lot of what you're telling me does.
Yeah, I know, I know.
You know, I think a lot of it is just my own...
You know, I've come a long, long way, Art.
You know, when I started all of this, I thought it was a bunch of baloney.
Uh-huh.
And I would say that I've only become really emotionally engaged in this, you know, really thinking that there might be something in it in the last couple of years.
Well, there's a longer journey ahead, Doctor.
I'll hang in there.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Melvin Morris.
Hi.
Hi, Doctor.
My name is Michael.
I'm calling from Norfolk, Virginia.
I will talk about your external memory, external brain theory, which I compare to a kind of World Wide Web.
Before I do that, I'd like to discuss the problems of consciousness after death, and the impossibility of proving it to a person like yourself, who believes in a kind of World Wide Web that records everything, And who also believes in demons and angels.
The reason it would be impossible is because it's virtually impossible to prove a negative, and what you have to do when you're dealing with a medium is prove that they are not either contacting some extraterrestrial being to get their information, or using this World Wide Web that you talk about.
Correct.
I think that's... I don't know about the extraterrestrial being part, but... Right.
I think that's the whole problem, right?
You've summed it up.
You put your finger on it, but let's hear, let's hear, you know, Let's hear more now.
You put your finger on the problem.
Okay, well, now to look at the problem that you present.
It's very unclear as to what your anthropology is, but if it is true that men are born with these capabilities, and men have been on this planet for thousands of years, at a time when the Bible was written, then We've got a real problem there, because the question is, if you believe in evolution, do you believe that there could be even more superior beings somewhere else in the universe that perhaps even created the mankind that we see on this planet?
Doctor?
Yeah, boy, I'm going to pass on that, Art.
I think that's outside my area of expertise.
Well, actually, no, it doesn't really require any expertise, because if you make the assumption Let's find out if you do, right, Doctor?
Absolutely.
With that assumption on the table, then we must also assume that there's a possibility that evolution has occurred elsewhere in the universe, and that it may have occurred at a much earlier date than it occurred here, And therefore, there may be beings with much more sophisticated technology than we have on this planet.
All right, hold it there, Caller.
Do you... I certainly agree with that.
I think, you know, Christian de Dove is a Nobel Prize-winning scientist who, you know, writes, I think, most movingly about this.
He wrote a book called Conscious Dust.
Okay, now I got you locked in, Doctor.
I agree with that.
Exactly.
Caller, remember exactly where you are, and Doctor, remember how locked in you were, and we'll break here.
And come right back and continue this.
Both of you, hold on.
From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM, and I'm Art Bell.
Ain't it good?
Ain't it right?
That you are with me here tonight?
Music playing, our bodies swaying in time Dun, dun, dun
Touching you so warm and tender Lord, I feel such a sweet surrender
Music playing, our bodies swaying in time Music playing, our bodies swaying in time
Music playing, our bodies swaying in time I can't use it anymore Gettin' tired, too tired to speak Still I'm knockin' on heaven's door
Wanna take a ride?
Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Has bumper music synchronicity or what?
Feel I'm not on heaven's...
Good morning, everybody.
Dr. Melvin Morse is my guest, and it's been quite a night.
If you've been listening, you'll have to admit, it's been quite a night.
So we'll continue into one final segment coming up in just a moment.
Stay right there.
Alright, let's resume the storm, shall we?
The caller thinks it's 2-0.
The caller has managed to get the doctor to agree that, in fact, we are a product of evolution.
That, in fact, evolution probably, in all likelihood, occurred elsewhere.
Probably evolution that precedes ours, and that will come after ours, I'm sure.
We're that far, and I'm sure the caller thinks it's 2-0.
So, spring it on, caller.
Way to go from there.
Well, the problem for any honest evolutionist who really believes in evolution and outright rejects the Bible is this.
They are the equivalent, or you come to the equivalent conclusion for this reason.
If you believe that intelligences exist in the universe, that may precede us by millions or even billions of years, then you have to accept the possibility that those intelligences may have been responsible for the phrase, let us make man after our image.
Alright, well that's obviously your crashing point.
Doctor, do you make that leap?
Well, you know, have you ever heard about this Dogon tribe in Africa?
This is a tribe that believes that we came from a dog star in another galaxy, but they have a sophisticated knowledge of astronomy.
And I never quite put it together with what the caller was saying, but Yes, there is.
I mean, there are some sort of intriguing hints like that from, you know, when you study anthropology and such as that.
This is, I think it's called the Cirrus Mysteries.
It's written by an astronomer in England, and he took the trouble to actually document what this tribe believed, and he showed how they have a lot of sort of belief systems that match with modern astronomy, and their myths are that they came from this star, And, you know, such as that.
Or you could have just watched Arthur C. Clarke's 2001.
Remember the obelisk?
Yeah, yeah.
That didn't get there by accident.
Yeah.
But I don't know why that would negate the concept of evolution.
It just pushes evolution back a few, you know, million years or billion years or what have you.
And when you look, like I was saying before the break, the Christian de Dove Nobel Prize winning molecular biologist, he says that there is an imperative in the universe, too, Evolve towards conscious life.
So, you know, not just that we evolve, but that, you know, specifically that we evolve towards conscious life.
So if that's true, then I think it is reasonable that we have evolved, you know, in multiple places throughout the universe.
I'm not sure why that, you know, the leap I don't understand is, you know, is why that then sort of I'm with you there.
There may have been some further crashing point that we missed, unfortunately, that would have gone in that direction, but I don't see how from where he went.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Melvin Morris.
Hi.
Good morning, Art.
Good morning.
Yes, I'm trying to wake up here.
Just a quick answer to what he had to say, you know, and then the question.
If all the capability of human beings from whenever to The question is, Doctor, are you familiar with the writings of Dr. Osis and Dr. Harrelson?
Oh, of course.
Pioneer near-death researchers, absolutely.
looks like it's pretty slim but the question is this doctor are you familiar
with the writings of Dr. Osis and Dr. Harrelson? Oh of course, you know
pioneer near-death and you know researchers absolutely.
Well yes you know and they brought out to the experiences of 2,000 people and
most of them were death experiences where they had apparitions of people
coming to get them.
Correct.
We alluded to that in the last hour.
Research shows that when people die, these apparitions do come for them.
Yes, but one thing they brought out in some of the accounts was there was accountability in that people's relatives would come for them.
Yeah, under some circumstances, and people unknown to them would come to them if they did not live a just life, apparently.
But, what's your feeling?
I'm going to have to disagree with you.
That is not my interpretation of Osama Bin Laden's work.
They did a lot of work on Indian experiences, but not Native American, but from India.
And they found that in India, it was more of a bureaucratic society, and And kind of people would say things like, oh gosh, you know, you're not in our book and such and such.
I thought the accountability examples really came from American society, but not necessarily from other examples from Indian society.
Well, you know, in both the Hindu and Muslim that they accounted for, and of course about half were in the U.S.
and Canada, and the episode where it was, you're not in my book, was when they came took a person of one name and there was another person with
an identical name and the one person regained consciousness or we might say started
breathing again and the other person of the same name died.
But this accountability question came indeed in the Hindu experience in the Indian hospital.
Interesting.
I'm going to have to read that work again.
But I certainly agree in the sense that I don't know about always accountability, but
certainly when we die it's a time for learning.
So we learn something, and obviously the accountability factor or the judgment factor or the life review factor is part of that learning experience.
You know, Mormon leader Brigham Young made the comment, you know, if you spend five years, or excuse me, five minutes in the afterlife, you'll know more than all the books that have been written.
Have you ever had an afterlife experience, Doctor?
I have not, but certainly the children I would agree with you.
I have studied many, many children that have had these experiences, and they would say that absolutely, that they learn more from that brief near-death experience than they learned in their entire lives.
Oh, but Doctor, you know, I listen to you and you're such a contradiction in so many ways.
You talk about this wonderful learning experience at death, at death's door.
Knocking on heaven's door, whatever, this wonderful experience, learning experience, which is followed by absolutely nothing.
Well, I... You're a living, breathing, walking contradiction.
I mean, what a... It's hard for me.
I will admit, Artie, I think you've done an excellent job of bringing out my own ambivalence with this material.
Yes.
It does go against my grain.
It's hard for me to accept this on an emotional level.
I know.
I really appreciate, though, you're nevertheless just giving the hard, cold facts and not going beyond that.
It's tough.
It is.
It's very difficult to, you know, to make the leap and say that there's some kind of life after death.
I just, I don't know.
I know.
All right.
First time caller on the line.
You're on the air with Dr. Melvin Morris.
Hi.
Good evening, Art.
Good evening.
And doctor.
I am the son of two ordained ministers and obviously was brought up very spiritual and with religion, etc.
And I have had two near-death experiences, one when I was 26 years old and the other when I was 42.
I would like to endorse 99% of what the good doctor has said this evening about all the experiences, the tunnel, the light, hearing what people are saying, etc.
I think the point that I wanted to make was, when I came back on both occasions, it gave me a much, much greater appreciation of life.
And I am not looking forward to death.
However, I have to tell you, I do not fear death at all.
As a matter of fact, there is a scripture that says, you know, I put before you life and death, therefore choose life.
And I have learned to appreciate life more than I think I ever could if I had not had those experiences.
And one of those experiences allowed me to meet my father, who is deceased, and speak.
Now, are you listening to this, Art?
No, I'm listening.
You're emphasizing the importance of living life.
I'm listening, yes.
But by percentage, how many people get to have this experience that we're Well, Art, here's something else I'd like to point out that I am a Christian and I believe that way, however, near-death experiences is not confined to Christians.
Not just Christians come back.
I've heard Jews come back.
I've heard blacks come back.
Sure, sure.
All people come back.
So if indeed there is a God of the Bible, okay, He's no respecter of persons.
Okay, I'm fine.
We'll leave it there.
That, I think, is pretty well established.
I'll just tell you a real quick one.
One girl who comes from a family with no religious beliefs, she told me that three doctors were at her bedside.
And I said to her, well, how did you know they were doctors?
She said they were 14 feet tall and they had light bulbs in their bodies.
You know, I think a more religious child would have called them angels.
Well, perhaps so.
You have a book called Into the Light, right?
Closer to the Light was my first book.
My most recent book is called Where God Lived.
Paranormal science and how our brains link to the universe.
That's interesting, just above your name it says Into the Light, so it's something you must have considered.
Yes.
So if somebody's going to do a first reading of Dr. Morse, what would you recommend?
Oh gosh, I wish they would read this book, Where God Lives.
That really is a book that tried to summarize My whole 15 years.
Really?
Why would Dr. Morse write a book called Where God Lives?
Well, because this area of the brain, this is where I believe what people call God is right in our brains.
what people call God, it's right in our brains. I don't think, you know, people don't have
to look very far for the God experience. You know, what do they say about it?
A fool looked for a fire with a lighted candle?
You know, you don't have to look very far for the God experience.
We're all hardwired to have it.
You don't have to care whether I believe in life after death.
You know, each person has the ability to access their own experience themselves.
Where is your book available?
Gosh, it's on Amazon.com or I guess in, you know, the library or bookstores.
Bookstores?
Currently in bookstores.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
All right.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Dr. Melvin Morris.
Hi.
Hello.
You say wildcard?
Yes, that's you.
Okay, this is Stephen Phoenix.
Hi, Stephen.
You've already answered my first question.
I've asked many of Art's guests, has anyone ever met a ghost that later turned out to be alive?
And so I'll direct this to Art, could you open a, my ghost turned out to be a live line when you hold the ghost to ghost?
Could I say that again?
Could I do what?
Hold a line open for those who found out that their ghost is still alive.
You've also had a ghost that was alive?
I haven't personally, but I've been asking for years.
It's the first time, I've got to be honest, and look, I've done the show a lot of years, and I have never before heard about a ghost that's still alive.
It's intriguingly It's fascinating.
I've been asking for years your guests and nobody else has ever heard of one either.
Anyway, my question was, number one, I've had near-death experience when I died on an operating table, and then I had another one when I went into a grand mal seizure, and I understand that they have similar activities for Uh, this date rape drug and for, um, centrifugal force and, uh, oxygen deprivation, et cetera.
LSD, Geronimo.
And I was wondering what's the differences between them, and let me ask real quick, and then I'll get off the air and listen on the radio.
Um, secondly, uh, reincarnation.
Once you figure in the fact that time is not relevant on the other side, and multiple children could be living from the same soul during the same time period, doesn't that I mean, I heard you completely negate reincarnation because children were coming up with the same story and the same life.
Well, it doesn't seem as simple to me that the same soul is recycled through body after body after body.
It seems more complex than that to me, yes.
The first question, how about if I answer your first question?
That's a lot easier.
Yeah, sure, go ahead.
I think that, first of all, nobody has systematically studied this issue, so I wish somebody would.
Nobody has ever looked into whether the ketamine-induced experience and the mescal-induced experience is the same as the near-death experience.
There was a group of scientists at Northwestern University.
Get this, Art.
They were actually suffocating patients with a mixture called the Madun mixture.
These weren't way-out doctors.
This was a guy named Atkinson.
At the time, he was the head of the gastroenterology department at Northwestern University back in 1960, and he was actually inducing the near-death experience by having people breathe a very high concentration of carbon dioxide.
But unfortunately, he didn't do any further research on them, the kinds of things we'd like to know.
Was that the center thrust of the research, to induce the NDE?
And he thought that he would, well he cured a lot of people of their physical ailments, and he mostly focused on the personality transformation, and he felt that this was psychotherapy in a bottle.
He envisioned a day where practicing doctors in their office would suffocate their patients and basically cure them of their neuroses.
Well, you know, here's an interesting thing.
Let me ask you about this.
There's a lot of recent medical evidence.
That people who have undergone open-heart surgery and or heart transplants end up with significant personality changes.
Yes.
To what do you attribute that?
I attribute it to that they've had near-death experiences.
But that's the kind of research that needs to be done.
And it is being done.
A guy named Bruce Grayson over at the University of Virginia is starting to do a lot of this research.
My impression is that they're all the same experience, that it doesn't really matter how the theory of the brain gets triggered, whether it gets triggered in the process of dying, Or whether it's what's called the hypnagogic state, which is that sort of dreamy, half-awake, half-asleep state.
Or whether it's a lucid dream.
Or magic mushrooms, maybe.
Another path, right?
Well, you know, I know it's not politically correct to say.
Well, this is not a politically correct show.
I'm asking you straight out.
It may be as valid a path, right?
Absolutely.
I was at, as a medical student, I was at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Washington, D.C., where they did a lot of the LSD research.
And when you talk to those old-time LSD researchers, they would tell you that people's lives were transformed by it.
They describe the same kinds of changes through this kind of LSD research that you see with near-death research.
Well, I talked to Terence McKenna before he passed on.
He was a big researcher.
Yeah, and what did he say?
Timothy Leary, too.
Well, Timothy Leary, of course, would think of this as a transforming experience.
I don't really know whether it's the same experience because, like I said, nobody has systematically studied it.
Well, they don't talk about it because that one's against the law.
Anyway, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Morris.
Hi.
Hello.
I just wanted to ask him, I have fallen asleep and missed some of the show, I'm sorry.
How does he reconcile that people can predict things years ahead and how can I know what the weather is going to be the next three months or even the next day without listening to the weather?
My theory is that we use a certain part of our brain called our right temporal lobe to access a timeless, spaceless, sort of endless source of energy and knowledge.
That physicists would call non-local reality, which is basically all of reality all wrapped up together.
Seeing the future and seeing the past, of course, then would be quite straightforward, because you're accessing this timeless place.
I would use as evidence of that, when you look at people like, for example, Edgar Cayce, who I think is a credible sort of prophet, One thing that you notice about them is they can't tell you exactly when it's going to happen.
And Edgar Cayce himself said that when he was in these states, he couldn't really tell whether it was going to happen in ten years or a hundred years or a thousand years.
Remote viewers have the exact same difficulty.
Exactly.
They seem to get the events right and the timelines way wrong.
But remote viewing studies also show that it's not time dependent.
For example, they can ask someone to remote view What a target, you know, what the target person is going to see tomorrow or saw yesterday, and they're just as accurate, you know, with those kinds of targets as they are with real-time targets.
Doctor, this has been so much fun.
You have been so much fun, but we're out of time.
Gosh, it seems short, Art.
I'll have to tell you, it was grueling.
You've exposed all of my contradictions and weaknesses.
I think it's because we're still learning.
I encourage everyone to look at this from an objective point of view.
The true insights, I think, haven't come true yet.
Like I told you earlier, I'm hoping all my theories will be proven wrong.
There's still time for that, but not for the show.
Good night, my friend.
Thank you very much, Rod.
I really enjoyed it.
Take care.
I'm going to go watch the Las Vegas Outlaws clobber Los Angeles later today.
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