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Feb. 16, 2001 - Art Bell

02:49:51

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Near Death Experiences - Dr. Melvin Morse

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50:33

dr melvin morse

01:27:40

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		The music plays So nonchalant Lonely day Lonely night Where
		would I be without my woman?
		The lonely day The lonely night Where would I be without my woman?
		Wanna take a ride?
		Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach ART at 1-775-727-1222.
		The FileCard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to call it on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nineveh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good morning, everybody.
		Listen, we've got Dr. Melvin Morse here about NDEs shortly.
		He knows all about near-death.
		He's a doctor, pediatrician, neuroscientist who spent 15 years studying NDEs of children.
		You know, the innocents.
		The Maggies.
		So that's going to be really, really interesting.
		It's one of my favorite subjects.
		Should be for everybody, actually.
		But first, I'm going to one more time because there are stations joining in this hour and because I just want to harp on this until you get off your duff and go over to your computer and see one of the wildest things you're ever going to see in your whole life.
		It's about MRI.
		And here's the deal.
		A guy went out and risked his job for us.
		He's a MRI technical guy.
		And he made a couple of videos with sound that are just absolutely awesome.
		There are two of them.
		And as I said, you'll get moving video and you'll get sound.
		The first shows, you can see the MRI machine and you won't see his face.
		He doesn't want his face seen.
		And then he's got an aluminum block.
		And what he does with that aluminum block, well, he asks the question, does the aluminum block fall slower?
		And it's at full speed.
		Does it fall slower because of eddy currents from the magnet or does time slow down?
		And then he's got a second demonstration with an eight-inch crescent wrench.
		And these together, I guarantee, I guarantee, will blow your mind.
		And it's nothing that I think has ever been really shown before.
		So I want to thank him for risking his position to do it for us.
		He is anonymous.
		We will not give you his name.
		And you better go see it while it's still there.
		That's what I can say in case somebody gets to us.
		But I got him right after the show last night, and they're mind blowers.
		And it'll show you all about MRI and this giant electromagnetic field.
		In fact, we'll ask Dr. Morse about electromagnetic fields as it relates to his work.
		And, oh boy, might it ever happen?
		So coming up in a moment is Dr. Morse.
		But get to my website at www.artbell.com and be sure you watch these videos.
		Capture them if you can.
		They're truly one of a kind.
		And we're going to be talking more about MRIs and large electromagnetic fields.
		It's just sort of what I'm on to at the moment.
		So it's worth seeing.
		Oh, that's so appropriate for so much of what we do, isn't it?
		Listen, we just sailed, we just had a record.
		Keith Rowland, my webmaster, informs me, we just set a record.
		Last hour, we utilized, hit a peak of 36.1 megabits downloading to you all.
		That is an all-time peak for the site.
		36.1 megabits of bandwidth.
		That's a lot of you out there.
		All right.
		Dr. Melvin Morse, pediatrician, neuroscientist, who's spent 15 years studying the near-death experiences and the ease of children.
		He says, I've learned the final moments of life are not frightening nor horrible.
		When we die, we become fully conscious, aware of our surroundings, and experience spiritual insights we do not often have at other times in our lives.
		By studying the neuroscience of the near-death experience, we learn that human beings have an underused area of the brain which is responsible for spiritual intuitions, paranormal abilities such as telepathy and remote viewing, and the power to heal not only the soul but the body as well.
		As a young critical care physician, I started listening to children's stories of what it was like to die and return.
		My research ultimately led to my discovery of our God spot, our biological link with an interactive universe.
		Dr. Morris, welcome to the program.
		How are you?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing great, Art.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is the first time that you and I have spoken officially on the air, correct?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I've been looking forward to it for a long time, Art.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I've heard a lot about your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was so embarrassing.
		I'm going to tell the audience earlier today, I got this from somebody in the audience, and you said you should have Dr. Morris on.
		And I thought I had Dr. Morse on maybe a year, two years, three years, four years ago, I don't know.
		I had him on.
		But the fact of the matter is, you were on with Mike Siegel and some other talk show hosts, But never on with me personally, right?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		That's correct, Art.
		I'm looking forward to it, that's for sure.
		I've been on your show with different substitute hosts and such as that.
		I know that your listeners are really informed and really able to explore really the deepest kinds of insights that studying near-death experiences can bring us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How old are you now, Doctor?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I'm 47.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		47.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And when did you begin practice?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I started, well, I graduated from medical school in 1980, and I started in private practice of pediatrics in 1985.
		But from about 1980 to 1990, I spent a good deal of time in critical care medicine, working for an air transport service out of Seattle Children's Hospital, Airlift Northwest.
		That's rough work, huh?
		I finally burnt out, and I think that most people that do that kind of work do.
		It's very grueling.
		It's tedious.
		And most patients that have to be resuscitated from nearly dying unfortunately die.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, they do?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		That's very difficult.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, that in itself, Doctor, is a really good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We always on TV see generally the success cases.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But in real life, people who have to have the paddles put on, how many, what percentage actually return?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, only one out of 100 or one out of 300.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're kidding.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's bad for you to have your heart stop beating art.
		Now, a lot of it depends, you know, if in the operating room your heart stops beating really quickly, that's, you know, they can just put the paddles on and restart it.
		But if you're talking about in the field, now the Seattle area for adults has one of the highest success rates, and I think their success rate is in the 5% or 10% range.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		5 or 10%.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but it is not going to have your heart stop beating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, then that's really something the American public should know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because if you watch movies and TV, you'd figure that at least you've got a 50-50 or better shot according to television and the movies.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's a better way to look at it, Art.
		At Seattle Children's Hospital, where we resuscitate children from a four-state area, Idaho, Montana, Alaska, et cetera, I studied near-death experiences in children from 1985 to about the year 2000, maybe going back as far as 1975.
		But over really a 15-year time period, we only came up with 26 children who survived what we would call clinical death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		So, I mean, the children that I studied were truly at the brink of death.
		And, you know, there's a lot of, I know, debate in the literature.
		Are these kids really near death?
		Or, you know, how do you define near death, et cetera?
		In our study at Seattle Children's Hospital, you had to have your heart stop beating and be resuscitated in the field in order to gain entrance into the study.
		And we only found 26 children over a 15-year period that fit our criteria as truly being, you know, surviving what I call clinical death, meaning that their heart had stopped beating, the blood had stopped flowing to their brain, and yet they were still resuscitated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, does that pop a giant myth?
		Holy mackerel.
		All right, let's try this one out for size.
		You mentioned actually dead.
		What is actually dead?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, Art, when you're dead, you're dead.
		You know, I've never resuscitated anybody who had truly died.
		So I guess in this day and age, you would define death as the irreversible onset of brain function.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that is somewhat controversial.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
		I mean, but not for the purposes of you and me.
		You know, we're talking about, you know, we're trying to talk about people who have been to the brink of death and come back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we will.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Certainly, though, that there's lots of people that are sort of living in a semi-comatose state that are never expected to revive.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, all the debate over life and death applies to those patients.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think my question is, Doctor, after your heart has stopped and the vitals have stopped, how long are you still able to detect some emanations from the brain?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, in an ideal situation, about four to six minutes before the brain dies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Four to six minutes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, a lot of the children we resuscitated were cold water drownings.
		And there's an old adage that if you're not warm and dead, you're not dead.
		And, you know, so the cold water has a protective effect on the brain.
		And we have resuscitated patients who were underwater for as long as 45 minutes.
		And, you know, and also reported in the literature, those kinds of extraordinary resuscitations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any possibility, doctor, it's a weird question, that somebody who has just died is in some way still able to hear or understand some bit of what's going around them, even though they have died, might they hear somebody like you say, I'm sorry he's gone?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the preparations to begin taking the body away?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely, Art.
		And I think that's the main when people are profoundly comatose, you know, they still might hear little bits of conversation or they might, you know, yeah, you know, when people are described as being in profound comas, you know, there's still some brain activity and there's still something going on.
		So I think, in fact, that's what most physicians think near-death experiences are.
		Most physicians or medical scientists would think that a near-death experience is just that your brain comes to the point of death, but of course while you're comatose, maybe you hear little snatches of the operating room conversations.
		Maybe you hear little things going on around you, little blips and blaps.
		And then when you're resuscitated, your mind hates a memory gap and you hate the idea that you might have died.
		And so then you create a pleasing fantasy, something that you're calling confabulation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, but you're talking about People who come back to tell us about that sort of thing.
		I'm talking about those who don't.
		In other words, there might be these few minutes where you could actually hear somebody like yourself say, sorry, he's gone.
		Wrap him up, take them away, guys, heal yourself.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the exciting thing about near-death research part: is that what you're describing has now, I think, been demonstrated beyond the doubt that when we die, we do die fully conscious.
		Even if our ears aren't working properly, our eyes aren't working properly, etc.
		All the evidence would indicate that when you die, you're completely conscious, you're completely aware.
		In fact, you have a consciousness that extends beyond your physical body.
		So I think that that's correct.
		What you're saying is not a weird question at all.
		This is one of the most important questions that people have for me because they, you know, I'll give you an example.
		A close friend of mine, he called me up one night crying after reading my research, and I said, you know, why is this so moving to you?
		And he said, well, it's because when my dad died, I was so, felt so guilty that I couldn't say goodbye to him.
		You know, he hadn't really known his dad very, you know, kind of got estranged from him over the years and, you know, hadn't told him he loved him in a long time.
		And he was in the intensive care unit, but his dad was profoundly comatose.
		And he wanted to know, you know, could my dad hear me and, you know, and understand I was saying goodbye and that I loved him.
		And sure, from a scientific standpoint, I could reassure him, absolutely.
		When we die, even if we seem to be comatose, we're fully conscious and alert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's fascinating and frightening at the same time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Frightening in a way.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And why is that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, because there would be this strange little period of time if you died.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't know.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, it's funny you say that, Art, because you're absolutely right.
		When children describe their near-death experiences, you're right.
		Come to think of it, they are often frightened.
		They're frightened because it's so puzzling to them.
		Like, you know, one child told me that she was in a tunnel and she was frightened.
		She knew that she had died.
		She knew that her body wasn't working anymore, so she wondered why she was still conscious and what was going on.
		And that, I think, is the element of these spiritual helpers.
		In her case, a woman named Elizabeth came to her and then comforted her and took her to a place that she thought was heaven.
		But many children are.
		Sort of an amusing story.
		One young man told me that he nearly died from trying to siphon some gasoline and he aspirated it.
		And he said he floated out of his body, and then he became very frightened because he didn't know how he was going to get back into his body.
		And, you know, that was, and, you know, so it's interesting you say that.
		I'll just say one more quick one because I'm so struck by this.
		We resuscitated a young man, and it was quite dramatic.
		We resuscitated him in the, well, after the operating room, in the recovery room, his pacemaker stopped working.
		He had a congenital heart disease.
		And it was very dramatic.
		We resuscitated him.
		He opened his eyes and he looked at us and he goes, that was really weird.
		You guys sucked me back into my body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so I think there is an initial disorientation in those first few minutes because you don't expect to be conscious.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, I always thought when you died, you just kind of, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have yet another question, Doctor.
		If so few are resuscitated percentage-wise, nationally, or even worldwide, it's probably even worse.
		Sure.
		Then would you say that most physicians, upon resuscitating a person, ask about their experiences or want to listen to their experiences, or do they think it's caca or what?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that's a tough question.
		I think that five years ago, most of physicians would say it was just some sort of hallucination of the brain.
		It was caca, as you say.
		It was something that they're not interested in.
		I think that in this day and age, probably 10% of physicians listen very attentively to these reports.
		And for example, I just got a letter not less than three weeks ago from the director of an intensive care unit at a children's hospital down in Texas.
		And he was writing to me because a child had told him about a near-death experience.
		And he wanted to know my opinion of the situation and the case.
		And I don't think I would have gotten such a letter 10 years ago, whereas now, actually, it's fairly routine.
		I get such a letter maybe two or three times a month.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you remember the first person you resuscitated who began all of this?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Gosh, like it was yesterday, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell me about it.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, you've got to understand, you know, I trained at Johns Hopkins.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		It was a very kind of rigid medical mentality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I really had an idea.
		Well, first of all, the critical care physician is fairly arrogant.
		You've got to have a strong personality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctors?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Arrogant?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Well, you do.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You have to think a lot of yourself.
		And that was kind of my mindset.
		I really thought I was sort of this hotshot critical care physician.
		We would fly into places.
		And we went to Pocatella, Idaho, and picked up a young girl who had been in a community swimming pool documented as being underwater for 19 minutes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And when I saw her, her pupils were fixed and dilated, which we of course take as a sign of impending brain death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, sure.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And she had a long resuscitation and ultimately went down to Salt Lake City to primary children's there and ultimately regained consciousness and is doing great today, married and has kids, et cetera.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		19 minutes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I just happened, it was just a total coincidence, or just kind of these, you know, I just happened to be moonlighting or working actually as a resident in a clinic there in Pocatella, and she just happened to be a patient there.
		And so she came in about two or three weeks after her successful resuscitation, and she looks over at me and she goes, hey, that's the doctor that the tall, thin doctor said to, thank God you're here.
		And she looks at me and she goes, I saw you put a tube in my nose.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, see, that's what I mean, 19 minutes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And she saw that?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And I was just floored because, first of all, you know, now that I've told you this, Art, you watch on TV, you see if you ever see a resuscitation where they put a tube in the nose.
		You know, actors don't like tubes put in their nose.
		Invariably, they'll put it in their mouth.
		But I just happened to have been trained to put it in their nose.
		So I knew right away that wasn't something she picked up from TV or something like that.
		But I'll tell you, what happened to me is when she said this to me, I actually laughed.
		I giggled.
		And then she immediately became very embarrassed and she wouldn't say another word to me.
		And I think that that's, I think, the reaction that many physicians have.
		I could have gone through my whole career and have never heard about one of these experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what kind of giggle was it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it was like a little nervous.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, it was like a nervous giggle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a nervous giggle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I thought.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, but luckily for me, I did have the sort of the courage to then go back and I called her mom and I asked her to come back into the house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		Hold on to that story.
		We're at the bottom of the hour here, Doctor.
		We'll get right back to it.
unidentified		19 minutes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		19 minutes.
		Oh, my.
		And she actually was able to tell the doctor what she saw, a tube in her nose.
		I just have, I have this feeling that there's a lot about life and death that we don't understand at all.
		Maybe we're not supposed to, but we do the best we can late at night here.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Coast AM
		No, put out the moon.
		So we're making love Power Power Power That's really nothing we can be.
		You know we couldn't, no, we wanted.
		no Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, and I just turned on my live webcam.
		Doesn't happen that frequently, but Keith got me a good one tonight.
		I held up this electromagnet from the time machine that I have to demonstrate it previous night.
		I was going to leave that image up there for a while at the beginning of the program, and I went and checked my own website.
		I said, I'd better check before I do this.
		I was actually on the air when I did it.
		I went to my webcam, and here's Art Bell sitting there with an alien head.
		He didn't tell me about that.
		Anyway, we've got the live webcam back up now.
		Dr. Melvin Morris will continue the story of the first one, 19 minutes in the water in a moment.
		Once again, here is Dr. Melvin Morris.
		Dr. Morris, welcome back.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much, Arch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, fine.
		Let's finish up with this first young lady ever.
		I wanted to hear about that first case.
		And so she, anyway, came back to you.
		You had a nervous little tea.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		She was nervous and follow-up, and I got her back in and sort of gently sat with her and just asked some open-ended questions like, you know, what do you remember about, you know, the time that you saw me stick a tube into my nose.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And she told me basically, blow for blow, every detail of her resuscitation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Every detail.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
		She had little comments that the nurses said, tall, thin doctors said to you, thank God you're here.
		I saw you put a tube into my nose.
		I saw you take me into a machine that looked like a donut, which was her description of a CAT scanner.
		Then I saw you on the phone calling some other doctors saying, you know, what am I supposed to do now?
		You know, she remembered everything.
		And trivial little things, you know, little comments that nurses made, stuff like that.
		And that's actually what most intrigued me about her story because at the time, of course, she was profoundly comatose.
		At a time, you know, the gods that I worshipped at the time were Plum and Posner, who wrote a book called The Diagnosis of Stupor and Coma.
		And they taught me that coma wipes clean the slate of consciousness.
		And yet here's a child who clearly was conscious and awake throughout her whole time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You keep using the word coma, and I suppose that's appropriate, or else she wouldn't be alive at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But to me, after 19 minutes underwater, you're profoundly dead.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, if you want to call it clinical death or what have you.
		Well, you know, but she certainly, I mean, people don't come back to life after they've died.
		I mean, she was just in the last few minutes of life.
		You know, and then she went on to tell me a further story.
		She said that she was in this place of darkness and that a woman came to her named Elizabeth, took her to a place she thought was heaven.
		She had met some friends up there.
		She was given kind of a vision of her family, and then she was told that she needed to go back and help her mother.
		And then she returned to consciousness.
		But, you know, what intrigued me not so much was the spiritual aspects of her story, but that she had any experience at all.
		Because, of course, as you're saying, dead or nearly dead brains should not be having complex visions of other realms.
		You were accurately describing their own resuscitations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It just shouldn't be.
		And if it really is, I mean, to you, I guess, the proof is absolutely conclusive.
		After that, it would have to be.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		That was just the start of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but I mean, still, that's pretty conclusive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If that doesn't launch you into an investigation, then you're not a really good scientist at all.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
		It was convincing to me, Art.
		But that's not the standard of proof that I think the scientific community needs.
		And I don't think that that's what they've responded to in the last 15 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think they're ever going to get enough.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, gosh.
		Oh, no.
		We're right on the edge now.
		I completely disagree.
		Well, let me tell you three facts.
		Everyone agrees with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Convince me, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Okay, here's three facts.
		Everyone agrees that, first of all, when you die, you're conscious and alert and having some kind of spiritual experience.
		So that's beyond dispute now.
		Nobody disagrees with that, even though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, they do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, I've seen doctors on programs like 2020 stand up and say, look, white tunnels, visions of relatives, it can be attributed to the fact that when we die, our brain dies from the outside moving inward.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that would produce the vision of the tunnel of light and the bright spot at the center and all the stuff.
		But it's just a matter of the brain closing down.
		That's what they say.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		But these are scientists who are not familiar with the literature.
		I guess I'm saying anyone who has looked at the litter objectively, I've been on those same shows, Art, they have to look far and wide to find someone who is willing to say that kind of stuff.
		That's the hardest thing for TV producers nowadays is to find a so-called skeptic.
		In fact, I was on National Radio with Paul Kurtz, you know, who's head of, what is that, PsycOps?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		and I absolutely shredded him because he had no knowledge of the enormous amount of scientific evidence backing up what I'm saying.
		Speaking of people.
		Oh, is that right?
		I don't know that necessarily, you know, an award like that from that institution might be more of a honor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, I have it proudly on the wall.
		I put it on my website.
		It was such a badge of honor.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me just give you one piece of evidence that will just tweak your imagination.
		This is research now that comes from the National Warfare Institute.
		So, you know, this is published in some sort of obscure aerodynamics journal.
		So that's why a lot of people aren't familiar with this literature because there's little bits and pieces of it everywhere.
		But here's what this guy did.
		His name is Jim Winnery.
		He's a flight surgeon for the National Warfare Institute.
		He took fighter pilots and he put them in centrifuges and he whirled their brains at tremendous speeds to try to understand what happens to the human brain with these tremendous g-forces.
		And he was able to show that as the forces became greater and greater and the blood stopped flowing in their brain, they would go through definite stages in which they would become comatose and then they would go through muscle spasms and they would have seizures.
		And then listen to this.
		Right at the point where the blood stops flowing in their brain, they regain consciousness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		And there's no doubt that that's when it happens.
		You know, in my studies, you could argue, of course, you know, maybe this child heard some things here and there.
		she wasn't really comatose, you know, blah, blah, blah.
		But, I mean, he's able to vary his centrifuge runs to the What sort of physiological reason would there be for that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or don't we know?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, we don't know.
		I mean, that's what's so exciting about it.
		You know, but we do know from studies like Jim Winnery's and also studies like mine out of Seattle Children's Hospital that the closer you come to death, the deeper you go in coma, that suddenly you hit a phase in which you're conscious and awake.
		And these fighter pilots described the same thing as my children described in their near-death experience.
		They would describe going through tunnels, floating out of their body, seeing themselves below.
		So that's the one fact.
		We're conscious and awake when we die.
		The second fact is that about 20% of our brain apparently is hardwired to allow us to have this experience.
		And again, this is not controversial.
		You have people like Matthew Alpert that wrote the God area of the brain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The God part of the brain, yes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I mean, he basically agrees with that, too.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		He just happens to think that there is no God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think you and I talked for a moment when we did a pre-interview when I wanted to get you on the air, and I mentioned Matthew to you.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you said, how could he get it so right and so wrong?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, he was so close.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, listen, I'm not saying that Matthew's wrong.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And you're going to have to prove to me that nobody can prove the existence of God.
		But I'm just saying that even a skeptic agrees that 20% of our area of the brain allows us to have this experience.
		And then you have the final piece of information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that's double what we use in everyday life.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Think about that for a bit.
		I am.
		But the final piece of information comes to us from the world of theoretical physics.
		And you know, Art, you know, I always hear so much about, you know, pseudo-physics and quantum gobbledygook and stuff like that.
		So the information I'm giving you now comes right from the top theoretical physicists at the national, you know, our national theoretical physicist lab.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Quantum gobbledygook.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, that's what, you know, so-called skeptics are always accusing, you know, sort of new age practitioners of indulging is.
		So what I'm saying is that I'm not a theoretical physicist, but I went to the top theoretical physicists in this country to vet what I had to say, make sure that the information that I'm about to share with you now is correct.
		And they said, absolutely, that the nature of the universe is that it is a timeless, spaceless place where everything that ever happened and everything that ever will happen is happening all at once.
		That we are all swimming in these patterns of energy which code for everything.
		So, you know, so, okay, so let me give you the three facts just real quick.
		One fact, die, we're conscious, awake, we see a timeless, spaceless place where everything exists.
		Number two, 20% of our brain allows us to have that experience.
		Number three, the theoretical physicists tell us that such a place exists.
		Well, you know, I'm not, that's not proof art, but I mean, those are three pretty solid scientific facts.
		And you don't have to connect the dots very much to say, hey, wait a minute.
		Well, maybe when we die, we use this area of the brain to perceive the timeless, spaceless place that the physicists are talking about.
		I mean, that's not a huge stretch.
		In fact, that's a better explanation than the alternative, which, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This place that you're talking about, is it a place provided by God, in your opinion?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it is what people call God.
		People who interact with this, you can't really call it a place.
		I mean, I know I called it a place too, but it's spaceless.
		So, you know, unfortunately, we don't have words as biological human beings to understand the nature of reality.
		But sure, people who interact with this space, well, adults call it God, but children say something very different.
		They'll go, wow, it was a place that had a lot of good things in it.
		Or they'll say, oh, it was just smiling at me.
		Or I knew everything.
		Or it could have lasted a second.
		It could have lasted my whole lifetime.
		I mean, that's what the children who interact with it describe it as.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just maybe a rude question, but I'll just ask.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe in the God of the Bible?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		The God of the Bible?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The God of the Bible.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, gosh, no.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that's what I'm saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was that?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Josh, no, so quickly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you saying gosh, no?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no.
		I think that the God of the Bible is more, you know, that was just, you know, that's, you know, the Bible, I'm sure you are aware, was a series of books written by human beings over, you know, several hundred period of time.
		And, you know, mostly is, you know, just, you know, shows what their internal spiritual life was like.
		But, you know, no, no, I don't think that there's a, you know, that God is some sort of male being that is, you know, watching our every moves or anything like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You saw the movie Contact, right?
		Sure.
		You remember?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		The movie Contact, I think, is right on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you remember when the person was in the hot seat, Jodi was in the hot seat, and in the end, after a dramatic exchange, she was asked virtually the same question.
		And her ride, or lack of it, depended on her answer.
		And she said, no.
		And she didn't ride.
		Not that time anyway.
		And so I've asked some of the best theoretical physicists in the world the same question, and they always answer, no, not the God of the Bible.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, right, because the God of the Bible was written by, you know, ancient man, you know, thousands of years ago.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, probably, you know, a lot of that is a lot of hallucinations and a lot of, you know, being starved in the desert for days and, you know, and such as that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe in the concept of creation?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Boy, you know, that's something I guess I'm just going to pass on.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't know whether...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If anything, in my mind, this makes your research and your reports more credible.
		Because if I thought you were coming at it from a religious point of view, I would detect strong motive, which would be all right.
		I would just want to know that.
		It's that you're coming at this from a straight-on medical view, having answered a couple of really tough questions I just tossed at you.
		And so that frames your research in a more credible way for me personally.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I tried to do that.
		I tried to start with what these children told me about being at the point of death.
		Well, we went even further than that.
		When I started my research, we thought that a drug, an anesthetic agent called halophane, probably caused the experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, in fact, we probably wouldn't have gotten our research funded if we hadn't actually were out to sort of prove that, you know, these Elizabeth Kubler-Rosses and Raymond Moody's were wrong.
		I had seen Elizabeth Kubler-Ross on the television, you know, trying to comfort some parents who had had a child who had died.
		And I thought, what a bunch of baloney.
		How can a respectable physician even say that kind of thing with a straight face?
		And we set out to prove her wrong.
		But on the other hand, you've got to balance that with that.
		Well, like this little girl, that first girl I told you about, I looked at her, when she told me this whole story, went to heaven, all this kind of stuff.
		I was looking at her with obvious skepticism.
		And she reaches over and she pats me on the wrist and she goes, you'll see, Dr. Morse.
		Heaven is fun.
		You know, I mean, after you have an experience like that, or you resuscitate a three-year-old that, again, you know has been at the bottom of a swimming pool for five or ten minutes and they look you in the eye and they go, I saw the sun.
unidentified		I saw the sun and it had a happy face.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, and that was on an overclass day that, you know, there was no sun out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess that's how a child would react.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, it's just that when you have those kinds of experiences, you know, it does, you can't be completely objective.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		But I have tried to start with the children's experiences and then build from there and try to make sense of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sort of a medical question for you.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If I said, if you tossed ethics and the morality of it out the window, and I asked you to put me on a table, take some paddles, and stop my heart for me, and then wait a small period of time and then bring me back.
		These are the ideal circumstances.
		You're there with all the drugs you'll need, the paddles, everything's right there.
		What would be my chances of coming back?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Boy, it would be pretty slim.
unidentified		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, less than 10%, I'm sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, an adult physician, I think, would have to answer that question better than me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would be a child's chance?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		A child's chance would be in the sort of 1 in 100 or 1 in 10 range.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		When we looked at cardiac arrests, even in a hospital setting, by and large, most of them did not have a good outcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then the movie Flatliners was just full of it.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		Yeah, there's no question about it.
		Nobody would ever do such a thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'm giving up on that idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've actually thought about that.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Shock you, I've actually thought about it, that if there was a pretty good, not full guarantee, but a pretty good guarantee that you could come back, that sure would be interesting research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, you'd end up in jail, but it would be interesting.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, boy.
		You know, there's a journalist at the University of Tokyo who actually wanted to do that, and the Tokyo physicians, of course, refused.
		But, you know, there have been people that have at least volunteered to do such a thing.
		But boy, the other thing is if it was such a brief cardiac arrest, you probably wouldn't have a near-death experience.
		When we looked at how long the resuscitations were, we found that these very brief resuscitations, one or two seconds or a minute or two, usually the person would just say they were out of their body or they would say they were in blackness or something like that.
		It wasn't until the more 19 minutes, 45 minutes that you really had that.
		But there is one thing that is patients that undergo heart transplants and undergo bypass.
		And many of them have reported near-death experiences.
		And you could probably find somebody that would put your heart on bypass and stop your heart.
		No, it's really all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's just one of those things like you consider in a lifetime.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's all.
		Doctor, we're at the top of the hour, so hold on.
		No, I'll pass on that.
		Not for the purpose of just finding out if I'd see the tunnel.
		There's got to be better ways in the conscious world to do that, but especially with those odds.
		I never knew, did you, that the odds of resuscitation, even under the best of circumstances, are that small.
		Why, those so-and-so's in Hollywood, what lies they tell.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM, and we're talking about what happens after you've died.
unidentified		We'll be back.
		We'll be back.
		I don't mind and I don't mind Girl, I love There's no one above you You are the sun, you are the rain.
		And make my land the foolish thing.
		You need to know I love you.
		And I do it all again and again.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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		To talk with ART on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Yes, I actually actively considered that.
		You know, finding somebody who would put me away, as it were, and then bring me back.
		I thought about it.
		Probably in the way most human beings at one time or another consider taking their own life.
		Not many admit it, but they, you know, it crosses your mind.
		It's one of those little things that a human considers every now and then.
		But I got so interested in NDEs that I thought about that for a while.
		But listening to Dr. Morse, I don't think the odds are so good.
		We'll pass on that one.
		But hearing about it is nevertheless fascinating because eventually, you know, we're all going to have the experience, one way or the other.
		Had you thought about that?
unidentified		You hear that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are a few people who have gone that way, too.
		Daniel Brinkley's one.
		A crack like that, and he was gone.
		Talk about NDEs.
		All right, once again, here is Dr. Melvin Morse.
		Dr. Morris, welcome back.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, have you heard of Daniel Brinkley?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, of course.
		I kind of, I guess, was responsible a little bit for unleashing Daniel on the world because I was on the Larry King show and I needed a guest and I knew Raymond Moody and Raymond said, well, you've got to have her hut Daniel Brinkley on.
		And I think pretty much the rest is history after that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Unleashed on the World.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		On the character.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unleashed on the World is the proper way to put it, all right.
		I want to take you off course for just one second, or maybe it's not off course.
		A few days ago, doctor, I stumbled into this thing where a lady called me on the phone and said, Art, I'm an MRI tech.
		And I've been working in MRI for years.
		And Art, I've been seeing things around MRI Machines now for years, and I won't talk to my fellow technicians about it.
		And I really thought, holy macro, I mean, you talk about the part of the brain that allows for this sort of thing.
		You said about 20%.
		Matthew Albert calls it the God part of the brain.
		You don't disagree on that basic tenet.
		After that, you all disagree.
		But you don't disagree on that.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		But it's the God communicator.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		It's the thing that allows us to access this non-local reality, this timeless space.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's the God part of the brain, then.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, but it also allows for the paranormal talents of telepathy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I'm with you.
		I'm with you all the way.
		So we all, I think, agree that exists, at least the three of us and a lot of the audience.
		So is it unreasonable, doctor, that people exposed to extremely strong electromagnetic fields would have an effect on that, that it would have an effect on that part of the brain or could?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know that the MRI scanner is an extremely strong electromagnetic field, aren't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know it's a giant magnet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Doctor, are you on the web?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, oh, yeah.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I could get on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You go to my website, and there are two video clips there of just how strong a field the MRI is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's incredibly strong.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		But I think it more has to do with the sensitivity of the person, because what you're describing is not just people that see things around MRI scanners.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		There are people who actually see the electromagnetic signature that we have around our own bodies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right, the aura.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, we have a I've got a good friend, Vernon Nepe, who's You're saying, yes, indeed, we're electromagnetic beings.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Neurons are firing.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		We're electromagnetic beings first.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, neurons are firing away in there like crazy in our brain.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		But we've got a Reiki healer up here in Seattle, and every time she comes into my friend's office, she shorts out all the computers.
		People start complaining all over the building, asking my friend, that person come by again and shorted out all of our equipment.
		We showed that people that had near-death experiences, frequently watches don't work for them or they'll lose the electromagnetic signature of credit cards or such as that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or how about this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		After they have returned, frequently they exhibit a paranormal ability they did not previously have, don't they?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		So I guarantee you that the woman you're describing had some sort of a near-death experience or profound spiritual experience that opened up that area of the brain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but suppose, doctor, after that was on the air, I were to tell you I had a thousand emails from people who have had unusual experiences with MRI.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all.
		You know, the MRI scanner is very interesting.
		You know, it actually listens to the sound.
		It's actually, you know, they listen to the sounds of different, you know, the differences in your body.
		And then it's only through computer software that those sounds are converted to visual images.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, if we were more auditory, you know, radiologists could actually listen to a brain tumor.
		They could listen to what your kneecap looked like.
		So it doesn't surprise me at all what you're describing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is, trust me, when I tell you, one of the largest electromagnetic fields in use anywhere.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I was unaware of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I honestly don't know.
		Oh, my, yes.
		I guess you're just used to ordering them and looking at the results and not operating on the electron.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know a little bit about them because I've talked to the radiologists about this issue of that our body is constantly broadcasting signals that you can hear or that we're actually patterns of energy that can be interpreted.
		We think we're so solid.
		We think of ourselves as a biological machine, and nothing could be further from the truth.
		The distance between the molecules and our body is greater than the distances between the planets.
		We're really patterns of energy embedded in greater patterns of energy.
		And when you understand that, then you can understand the mechanism of how our brain can communicate with this greater reality because we're just patterns of energy resonating with this greater one.
		And so then you can understand things like how a comatose brain could possibly be seeing and hearing things, because even though it has no energy itself, it's tapping into an energy source that's outside the body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine, all right.
		Answer this for me.
		Because I've done this radio program so long now, so many years, I have interviewed quite a number of people, including Sarah.
		We spoke of Sarah briefly before the program.
		My Sarah, that interview.
		I've talked to a number of people, Doctor, who have had negative NDEs put straight on to you.
		They said they went to hell.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Sure, why not?
		I mean, of course.
		You know, the actual imagery of the experience comes from your own life art.
		And just to amplify your thought, I mean, let's think about near-death researchers just in this country.
		You look at the new age researchers such as, you know, Ken Ring and such as that.
		Well, by and large, his subjects describe very kind of New Age type near-death experiences, floating out of their body, seeing a tunnel in the light, etc.
		Well, the negative experiences you talk about, we would, since, you know, the experience itself comes from your own personal psychology, we would then predict that that would come from people who believe in heaven and hell.
		And sure enough, Maurice Rawlings, the Tennessee cardiologist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I've interviewed Dr. Rawlings.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, then you know he's right from the Bible Belt.
		A great percentage of his patients have a very literal belief in heaven and hell.
		So of course that's the imagery that would be reflected on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you say that.
		But okay, let me briefly review Sarah's NDE.
		Sarah was a church volunteer, a young lady.
		Sarah Was on her way home from church.
		She was riding her bicycle, and she got hit at a high speed from the rear.
		She was clinically dead for a long time.
		She was the sweetest little thing you can imagine, a believer with faith.
		And she went to hell.
		In part, at least, she went to hell, Doctor.
		Now.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, in her mind.
		I mean, she went to the hell that she knew of her own personal psychology.
		Don't get hung up on the individual elements of the experience art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm trying not to, but I've never.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, when you look cross-culturally, let's just take a step aback from her experience.
		We went to Japan.
		We heard over 400 Japanese near-death experiences.
		I worked with a psychiatrist at the University of Tokyo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, and?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, and we didn't hear any heavens or hells.
		We heard all kinds of Japanese or religious images and experiences.
		And I collected all of you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, but what does that mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does that mean that you get what you expect?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		Yeah.
		Well, let me just finish the thought.
		You know, we went to, I didn't go to Africa.
		I collected 50 native African near-death experiences.
		They were primarily people walking down paths in the jungle and meeting men dressed in white robes saying, what are you doing here?
		But you really see this when you look at children because, see, children don't have all these images.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, see, so that's when you really understand how much of it's your personal psychology.
		When you look at children's experiences, they go, I saw the sun.
		Or they'll say, wow, it was really weird.
		I saw this light.
		And it had a lot of good things in it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But isn't that what you would expect a child to say?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Sure, exactly.
		So, you know, Japanese children were the same way.
		They just saw experiences of light.
		So here's, well, I'll tell you what Chris Carr said.
		He's an anthropologist at Arizona State University.
		And he looked at this whole cross-cultural issue and also throughout time.
		And he said that what we learn is that we're conscious when we die and we learn something when we die.
		That dying is a time to learn something.
		And when you understand it in that context, then you understand that, of course, the images come from your own personal psychology because you're not going to learn much from someone else's experience.
		When I die, I'm going to see my own life.
		I'm going to be comforted by images from my own life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure you'll die and find out doctors really are gods, right?
		Well, that's interesting, but it worries me a little.
		In other words, when we're talking about a consciousness and we're talking about the universe and we're leaving God out of the equation for the moment, well then you would expect a great commonality from the pediatric patients to the old people to anybody who's resuscitated.
		You would expect a commonality.
		And I guess you're going to say there probably is one, but without that commonality.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No, no, I don't really disagree.
		There is no commonality.
		There's no commonality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the tunnel?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		The tunnel is entirely a 20th century artifact art.
		Here's what I love to, this is what I like to say.
		The tunnel got swallowed, not the tunnel, excuse me, the golden, there used to be a golden cord, and I like to say the golden cord got swallowed by the tunnel.
		if you look in this country european american near-death experiences prior to nineteen sixty you know from what's what's about eighteen hundred nineteen sixty years primarily people described floating out of their body attached by a silver cord it wasn't until raymond moody came along and Yeah, well, no, no.
		It's actually then, you know, when Raymond Moody came along and the Shirley MacLean days, then you started hearing about this tunnel going into a light.
		But, you know, people from Africa didn't describe tunnels.
		Studies of micronesian near-death experiences don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if there's no commonality, if you're arguing against that point, most ANDE people argue for it, but they're wrong.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		There's no evidence whatsoever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm with you.
		Fine.
		They're wrong.
		Okay, well, then that argues, though, against there really being something after death.
		It doesn't argue for it, it argues against it.
		In other words, you're getting your own perceptions or what you expect or what you believe.
		But if there's no commonality, then maybe there is a point where it all cuts off.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No, oh, Gardner, I love you, Art.
		I wish I could kiss you.
		Sure, that's absolutely true.
		In fact, I've studied near-death experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's why I'm not on Larry King with you.
unidentified		Yeah.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Here's the deal.
		That's true.
		Near-death experiences tell us very little about life after death.
		They tell us we're conscious when we die.
		They tell us we learn something when we die.
		So inferentially, you know, why would we learn something when we die if there wasn't something else afterwards?
		But these experiences teach us about life.
		You know, the exciting part of these experiences is to learn we have this area of the brain, start to use it while you're still alive.
		Start to have this communication.
		Well, we have it anyway.
		You know, what you call intuition is just the natural functioning of your right temporal lobe, tuning in information from this non-local reality.
		So, you know, yeah, it teaches us about living, but I agree.
		I've studied these experiences for 15 years.
		I don't think they tell us really much about life after death, or we don't know what happens after we.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then you would imagine that there's a significant possibility that there is lights out goodbye at some point.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, you'd have to either think it's some sort of final fireworks in which you sort of merge into this endless pattern.
		You know, after hearing these experiences for 15 years, I think the best thing I've heard is a sort of a Muslim concept that when you die, you're like a drop of water returning back to the ocean.
		You know, that we're merging back with this universal energy pattern.
		But I want to be quick to point out that I may not believe in life after death, but certainly I think near-death research tells us that people can communicate with people who have died or people can have premonitions of the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you can communicate with somebody who has died, then there has to be life after death or a consciousness, excuse me, consciousness After death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise, that's not a real communication.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		It's timeless, Art.
		It's timeless.
		So the future and the past are meaningless in the context of something that's timeless.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But are you communicating with a consciousness?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		People who interact with it describe it as a consciousness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or just some sort of echo of what was that that will always remain going around and around.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, I don't know that we can answer that question.
		I can only tell you that people who've had the interaction describe it as a consciousness.
		And, you know, certainly, you know, we know that we're patterns of energy that reside in this timeless place.
		So clearly, if we have the ability to access information from this timeless place, then we can communicate with people who have died.
		But that doesn't, you know, I don't think that necessarily says there's necessarily life after death.
		Like you're saying, it may just be an echo going around and around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, to me, I have talked to people who have actually communicated with the dead and received a great deal of contemporary, accurate information.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Contemporary.
		Keyword, contemporary.
		The key you lost is, you know, it's in the garage under the table leg or something like that.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		And I have experienced those kinds of stories and have documented many of them myself.
		Well, you have to play the devil's advocate, once again, you could just say that's an echo, though.
		You could say, you know, that's similar to, let's say, a ghost.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no.
		You couldn't say that.
		An echo wouldn't be able to instruct you on something that's happened since its passing.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Hmm, that's a good point.
		All righty.
		Okay.
		Well, see, yeah, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You and I are switching positions here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're playing devil's advocate, and then I am.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've never really thought of these experiences as proof of life after death.
		I do agree that these kinds of experiences you're describing are convincing.
		For example, a psychologist that I work with was telling me that he was working with one of his patients, a widow who had died, and this widow was grieving and it was just in a terrible world of hurt.
		And he had sort of a shamanistic, lucid dream, out-of-body experience in which he got some information from her husband, contemporary information, that he then gave it to the woman, and it was tremendously meaningful to her.
		So it is true.
		And I also know a young man who he his, well, it's his mother's boyfriend died, and he has the experience of this man coming to him and giving him information on like carpenty projects or things like that.
		Exactly.
		So, you know, yeah, you know, but I guess in my mind, I separate what's scientific proof and what's an illustrative anecdote.
		And I don't think that these anecdotes rise to the level of scientific proof.
		I think they're suggestive.
		They're tempting.
		But the scientific proof, just knowing that we have this area in our brain, it allows us to access information that's outside our brain, and that we die conscious and aware.
		I mean, boy, that's pretty amazing right there.
		We have come a long way in 20 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
		But if you and I are only sitting here discussing something that's very short-lived indeed, if you'll excuse the parent pun, for people who die, well, there's this brief little interlude that is sort of interesting that you and I are talking about, but then after that, poof.
		Yeah.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, some of Michael Schroeder.
		He's a well-known near-death researcher.
		He's a German psychiatrist, and he wrote a really definitive review of the experiences in the Journal of Scientific Exploration.
		And he agrees that when we die, we die conscious and alert.
		And he agrees that when we die, we have this expanded sense of consciousness, you know, that leaves our body, et cetera.
		And then that's what he agrees.
		That's his position.
		He says, and then that's it.
		We just poof into whatever's.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's really.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he calls the near-death experience foreplay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are, other than Matthew Albert, you're really the first person to come along and really tell me they believe this.
		I don't know that I believe it.
		I actually think that there, you know, we are energy, and I think that we are something that I think there is a soul.
		Actually, I do believe that.
		I think we have a soul, that we're more than just the electrical impulses and all the rest of it.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, in the back of my book are over 250 scientific references documenting everything that I've said.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I think this is no longer an issue of belief, but this is an issue of any fair-minded person's objective analysis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you can't prove we don't have a soul, can you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll give you a soul.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No, I think we do have a soul.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that's, you know.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, if a soul, if by a soul you mean this electromagnetic resonance, which allows us to communicate with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on, Doctor.
		Hold on.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		I was a highwayman.
		Along the coast roads I did ride.
		With sword and pistol by my side.
		Many a young maid lost her bottles to my trait.
		Many a soldier shed his lifeblood on my blade.
		The master trunked me in the spring of 25.
		But I am still alive.
		I was a sailor.
		I was born upon the sky.
		With a sea idea to buy.
		I sailed a scooter around the port of Mexico.
		I went along the world and made the little clothes.
		And when the yard broke up they said that I got killed But I'm living still I was a damn builder Across the river deep and wide Listen to the words, doctor.
		We're stealing what it did to lie.
		A place called Boulder on the wide Colorado.
		I slipped and fell into the wet concrete below.
		They buried me in that straight to the snow slow sound.
		But I'm still around.
		I'll always be around.
		I'll always be around.
		have them dial 800-893-0903 this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks But I will remain I'll be back again and again and again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		We are back right now.
		Dr. Melvin Morse is my guest, and we have a related question for him coming up in just a moment.
		It can happen that fast.
unidentified		Life and death, just that fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Crack of the lightning.
		Once again, Dr. Melvin Morse.
		Doctor, welcome back.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you hear the words to that song?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm still alive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what they were singing about, right?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, they were singing about reincarnation, Doctor.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, is that right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		Back again and again and again, maybe a single drop of rain, but back again and again.
		They were singing about reincarnation, and you've been so absolutely, starkly honest with me this morning that I'm going to see if I can push it a little further.
		A lot of people believe in reincarnation.
		But if I've listened to you carefully, reincarnation to you is as much, I hate to use the word bunk because that'll get people angry, but is as invalid as the probability of life after death.
		Yes?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
		I think if you look at the reincarnation research carefully, it really suggests that we're tapping into memories and energy patterns outside our body, to be sure, but doesn't suggest life after death.
		Let me give you an example.
		Some of the, you know, you know, the work of Ian Stevenson, I'm sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, so what we're dealing with is, you know, children who are recalling past lives, and then people like Dr. Stevenson rigorously investigate these and find out that, sure enough, quite frequently, they do report, you know, true past lives that seemingly they would have no way of knowing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes doing it in other languages, Doctor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you account for that?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, well, just to add some more credence to that research, you know, someone as skeptical as Carl Sagan made the comment that such information was at least worthy of further investigation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so, but look at this research carefully and you find that there are well-documented cases in which two children remember the same past life or one child remembering what they think is one past life when actually analyzed very carefully is two or three stories spliced into one.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, these kinds of anomalies really make it more likely that we're tapping into sources and memories that are outside of our body and that people are just mistakenly thinking that that's a past life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so that would suggest, though, that your life, for example, Dr. Morse's life, once it's over, remains in some realm as some sort of complete record that occasionally somebody can tap into.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And that's correct.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I think, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You think that's what it is?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I mean, a guy named Frank Tipler, a theoretical physicist, wrote a book called The Omega Point, which made that very point, that we are, you know, at least in some theoretical sense, eternal in that, you know, our lives are just patterns of behavior and energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I'm specifying not eternally conscious, eternal in another sense, right?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		correct not eternally conscious but eternal and that were Most after-death communications are very simple, almost like the echoes you discussed earlier.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		They're usually things like the child returning to their parents saying, don't cry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I'm okay now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		But nothing more than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I'm okay now.
		That's a pretty serious sentence.
		I'm okay now.
		That implies I'm conscious and I'm okay.
		Otherwise, if you were just getting sort of some sort of echo that was hanging in the ether, it would be some little replay of something that had been, or it wouldn't be a contemporary message of that kind.
		Not I'm okay now.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		But it's so stereotypical, and they always say pretty much the same thing.
		And you hear that again and again and again.
		It does actually make me think more of when I drive down the highway and I see a memorial sign that says such and such was killed by a drunk driver on the right spot.
		Actually, it reminds me more of that.
		There's one thing that we haven't discussed that I've got to twist your brain around with.
		I don't think you can understand my theories or what I'm speculating unless you understand that my opinion is that most, if not all, of our memories are stored outside our brain.
		And that we don't keep our memories inside our brain the way I think that at least I was taught in medical school.
		I've come to reject that position.
		In fact, we are accessing memories from outside our brain all the time.
		And once you understand that, then I think this reincarnation kind of business comes into play.
		Or think about what the false memory syndrome is, where therapists will interview somebody and they'll say that they went back into their past and that they were abused as a child.
		Well, many of these things turn out to be false.
		Well, it's because these people are mistakenly accessing memories.
		Let me give you a quick example of that.
		We all think of hypnosis as being some sort of truth serum or that, you know, you wouldn't lie, etc.
		Well, a lot of times they'll do past life regressions in which they'll regress someone back to, I mean, not past lives, but within their own life, they'll regress them back to their third or fourth year of life.
		And then they'll say to the person, well, describe your birthday party.
		And they'll tell their birthday party in great detail and believe it to be true.
		And then you ask their mother, and the mother will say, that person, you know, my son didn't have a birthday party.
		Well, how does that happen?
		Well, because that person in a well-meaning way wanting to please the hypnotherapist is accessing someone else's birthday party and reporting it as their own.
		And this is not medical heresy, what I'm telling you.
		There is no modern theory of how memory could be stored in the brain.
		So I'm not actually stepping out on some huge, long, skinny limb by saying it's stored outside the brain.
		No one has a theory of how memory could be stored in the brain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a fairly skinny limb, Doctor.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No, absolutely not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is, too.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Fred Lashley, who is, I think, arguably the foremost memory expert, he made the point.
		He said that at the end of his life, he said if he didn't know it were impossible, he would think memories were stored outside the brain.
		You have people like Rupert Sheldrake who...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not by any means.
		I'm just saying that the brain is an organism.
		To some degree, we understand that.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Sure, but more of a transmitter, more of allowing us to access information back and forth and actually storing memory inside the brain.
		I'll just tell you this much, they can't find it.
		They take rats, they teach them how to run mazes, then they chop up those brains to try to find out where the memory trace of how to run that maze is, and they can't find it.
		They slice and dice those rats' brains.
		Oh, you're making a good point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And in fact, I think that a lot of times humans can lose a very large portion of their brain and still be just fine, huh?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I first actually got this idea when I was in medical school when I was at Johns Hopkins and took care of a patient in which we removed half of his brain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you are.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		One half of his brain.
		And yet that guy, after he recovered, talked, walked, acted normally.
		You could have spent an hour with him and you would never have known that he had one half of his brain.
		Well, how is that possible unless we start to think of the brain as some sort of holographic memory and transparency?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, really, Rush Lindmore shouldn't be bragging about half his brain because he could function just as well with it.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I've seen it for myself.
		And, you know, it was the first, you know, when I realized that, I said, wait a minute.
		I mean, that just totally twisted my brain around.
		How could they remove half this guy's brain and yet he still is acting normally?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about when half the brain was removed?
		That's incredible.
		Were there any missing memories?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not.
		And this has been shown in animal research as well.
		And I started to say, Rupert Sheldrake, who's a very well-respected evolutionary biologist, he came to this conclusion independently, in which he feels the best understanding of modern evolutionary biology is that we are constantly resonating with some sort of pattern of information outside of our body that really codes for the information that allows us to be uniquely human or
		any animals are resonating with their sort of perfect animal image.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take this one on then.
		I'm sure you know the story of the lady who received, I think, heart and lung transplants all at once from a young man.
		She awakened.
		She had all the urgings that a young man would have, wanted things that she never wanted before, and then had a dream and dreamed her donor's name.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, gosh, and there's more.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so those sort of anecdotes abound.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe they do, but it's a true story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I mean, how could that possibly, possibly be, unless memory perhaps is stored throughout our body?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, those stories make my point, Art, is that memory is not necessarily stored in our brain.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, that we have memories that we're going to be doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm helping you here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does that mean that it's a collective thing?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		It's got to be something along those lines.
		I don't think we, you know, we fully under.
		Well, what I hope with my theory, Art, is that my theories ultimately will be proven wrong, but in the process of proving them wrong, we'll learn what the real story is.
		But at least I've provided a template where we can now start to look at this stuff in a critical way.
		Instead of just, you know, before everyone just kind of, woo, woo, isn't that weird, remote viewing or past life memories, et cetera.
		You know, now I've actually, you know, I've said, hey, look, here's this area in our brain.
		Maybe it allows us to communicate with the world at large, pick up energy patterns throughout our body, throughout the rest of the universe.
		You know, we can start to tease that apart and see if it's really true or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are ghosts, doctor?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think ghosts are very similar to what you were talking about earlier with echoes.
		I think that ghosts are just memory patterns embedded in nature that similar to the things that your not your patient, but the young woman you described that saw things in the MRI scanner.
		Oh, oh, that, you know, well, you know, think about what ghost stories are usually.
		Usually that they involve very highly emotional events, you know, killings, battles, or something like that.
		Let me give you an example of a cool ghost story that illustrates this.
		There's an archaeologist working over in Turkey and he kept seeing every night this person loading dead bodies onto a mule and taking them off somewhere.
		And he saw a very stereotyped vision of it.
		He saw a certain angle of the man and the mule and the body draped over it.
		Well, so then many years later, he was in the Gallipoli area in Turkey.
		Many years later he happens to see a postage stamp from Australia which depicted the very man he saw, in fact the very scene he saw.
		But this was a postage stamp that was developed by an artist ten years after this person had, you know, this archaeologist had his, you know, his ghostly vision.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but it must have been commemorating some historical event.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		It was.
		In fact, this was a, I've forgotten, you know, some hero in Australia.
		I've forgotten exactly who it was.
		And so you have the entire consciousness of Australia, you know, with a very, you know, the many tragic deaths at Gallipoli, and they've memorialized it into their mind, into this postage stamp image that an artist created.
		And here you have an archaeologist who taps into that same idealized vision, but instead in his, you know, the way he interprets it is he actually sees it as the person, you know, out on the field gathering up bodies.
		But he couldn't actually be seeing it.
		You know, it's not as simple as that he actually saw, you know, the ghost, you know, of that person, because if that was true, why wouldn't he have seen the person's face and many different views and etc.?
		No, he only saw that very stylized version of this person that was then later commemorated on the postage stamp.
		So he was tapping into an idealized vision.
		You see what I'm saying?
		But he wasn't actually seeing the reincarnated person living in nature as we imagine a ghost as some sort of a gaseous vapor.
		Obviously, it wasn't as simple as that.
		He was tapping into a memory trace, a memory trace that actually wasn't created until 10 years into the future.
		Well, why not?
		If he's tapping it from a timeless place, he's going to obviously be able to access information from the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That sounds like remote viewing.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		And remote viewing is well established.
		No one, you know, well, again, only skeptics who are unfamiliar with the literature, I'll put it to you that way, dispute remote viewing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So now, do you think that your research, as you have articulated it tonight, removes the fear of dying?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I'm not afraid to die.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First of all, why?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if you think there's going to be a brief little spurt of consciousness and then blackness, one piece of information that I've learned from children that, you know, we haven't really talked about, and that is that something that is so important to you accompanies you and helps you with the dying experience.
		And with children, you see this so dramatically.
		You know, they'll tell you that either maybe it was their blankie, maybe it was a pet who died.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		you know but for example for me if my wife dies before me i have no doubt that when i die i will see my wife again and that in itself but but just just It was for a very short time though, huh?
		Well, I didn't say that, I don't know what, I mean, I'm hoping that it continues.
		But nevertheless, I mean, I'm not afraid to die.
		I know that the process itself is very spiritual and it involves comforting people from your own life.
		I mean, what could be better than that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the difference is I'm looking forward to the beginning of an adventure when I'm not, you know, I got an email that I want to run by you.
		It was so simple, so quick, and it just, the email just said, beginning.
		And there was an underline after beginning.
		And the text of the email said, my death was not as I expected.
unidentified		Yeah.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what they all tell me.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I mean, people that have the near-death experience are not afraid to die, that's for sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		They all tell you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, that's not people who have died.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, you talk to people who, in your own words, have been in a deep coma.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They haven't died.
		You haven't talked to people who have died.
		You've talked to people who have almost died.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		People who have come to the last few minutes of life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, do not describe it as a scary or unpleasant experience.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I've certainly lost my fear of death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to awake to the meaning of this email.
		My death was, if I can consider the manner of my death, then obviously I'm off on a new adventure, right?
		Correct.
		Yeah, okay.
		Stay right there.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		This is really, really interesting.
		Getting a doctor, a physician to open up this way.
		You don't hear it all that frequently.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Good read.
		What a tale my thoughts could tell.
		Just like an old-time movie, about a ghost from wishing well.
		In a castle dark or a fortress strong, with chains upon my feet.
		You know that ghost is here.
		And I will never be set free.
		Long as I'm a ghost, you can't see me.
		If I could...
		Beats on the side.
		Smack touch something inside that we need so much.
		the sight of the touch or the scent of the sand, or the strength of the line that is deep in the ground, the wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac and the sun again, or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, To lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing, I hold it in my memory as well, and the universe is the cover.
		I'm not going to die.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Well, call Art Bell from west to the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed.
		And we have Dr. Melvin Morris here.
		Very, very interesting, man.
		Very interesting.
		Not the usual NDE interviews that we get, that's for sure.
		And there's going to be more of it in a moment.
		And yes, we're getting close to opening the phone lines.
		So don't despair.
		Crawl up near your phone.
		Get comfortable.
		Get ready.
		It's getting close.
		Here we go again.
		Dr. Melvin Morris back with us.
		Doctor, I'm reading a little of the material I got from your website, and one of the things it says here is that the effects of near-death experiences apparently occasionally in some way affect the immune system.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How so and why so?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I think in two ways.
		One way is that it causes a personality transformation, which is for the positive.
		People that have near-death experiences generally feel connected with all of life.
		They have kind of an optimistic, upbeat point of view.
		They think that their lives have meaning.
		And just that alone will boost your immune system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I believe that.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Good for you to be happy.
		It's good for you to feel wanted.
		It's good for you to feel that your job is meaningful.
		And people who have those perceptions live longer and have healthier lives.
		In fact, we showed that people who have near-death experiences take fewer over-the-counter medications.
		They have fewer symptoms of depression.
		They have less drug use.
		So it's sort of like have a near-death experience and never need an aspirin again is what I learned from studying this.
		But then there's also, I think, the more dramatic healings that we see in which people are cured of cancers.
		Or I had a patient once that was cured of a fatal liver disease.
		And these seem to involve some kind of wholesale restructuring of our DNA, probably mediated by this interaction with this universal energy pattern, or light, or God, or whatever you want to call it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whatever you want to call it.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the non-local reality.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, Doctor, take Daniel Brinkley as an example.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The two of you would agree to a certain point, and then you'd really disagree.
		Because Daniel will tell you, don't fear death.
		It's not the end.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		It's only the beginning.
		Sure, but he's had this experience.
		But there's one thing that Daniel and I agree with, and that is that the experience itself is of tremendous importance for dying patients, and that we need to start to educate them that the process of dying is spiritually dynamic.
		It's not to be feared.
		I've tried to twist your brain so many times.
		I'm going to give you one more little teaser.
		If we listened up to near-death experiences and we forgot all this business about life after death and we just understood that they're real and they happen to us when we die, I believe we could save $4 billion a year in this country from health care costs.
		How could I make such a dramatic statement?
		Well, because we spend $4 billion a year in this country unnecessarily over-treating and over-medicating dying patients, providing them with care that will not prolong life one second, care that they usually don't want, care that physicians usually don't want to deliver, but just feel sort of like the machine just grinds on.
unidentified		But, doctor, we're giving them really a fairy tale.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		According to what you really believe, we're telling them a fairy tale.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No, absolutely not.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No, I've really, I haven't presented my position properly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Entirely properly.
		I get it entirely.
		Oh, yes, I do.
		Yes, I do.
		You're saying, and I don't disagree with you, that the dying process is a very spiritual thing, something not to be feared.
		But, you know, Daniel will say, hey, I'm looking forward to when I die because it's, you know, it's just the beginning.
		That's where you and Daniel really depart radically.
		Sure.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		But a fairy tale is not doing justice to what I'm saying.
		I'm saying this is of intense importance to you, the person who's dying, to the people who are around you, to your loved ones, to your, you know.
		I mean, so, you know, it has the power to reverse the isolation of the dying patient, to bring back the old deathbed scene, you know, to get rid of these irrational rules and taboos that we have surrounding dying patients, to really break the whole taboo of death altogether.
		You know, right now, I mean, when patients die, nobody wants to be around them.
		Doctors spend less time at the bedside.
		Relatives visit less frequently.
		And yet they're undergoing this very dynamic spiritual experience that has intense meaning, gives them a tremendous insight and understanding into life.
		They have something to teach us dying patients too.
		And that alone could trigger a cascade of sort of benefits which would include, in my opinion, the withering away of all this unnecessary medical technology.
		I really believe that.
		Just forget about life after death, just focusing on what we do know, that when the whole thing, when we die, that alone could save us $4 billion a year.
		So that's not a fairy tale.
		In our country, anything that's going to save health care dollars, well, I'll put it to you a different way.
		Well, if the near-death experience is a pill, we would be ordering it by the bucket load.
		Doctors would be prescribing it like crazy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That all sounds very practical, and I believe that you're exactly right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure it would save in health care and all the rest of it, but...
unidentified		It's got to be proof of life after death, too.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I think that's still going to, at least at this point, still an issue of faith, not necessarily for science to address.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, fine.
		That's fine.
		But I'm just being really blunt, and I'm saying that when you must agree then, when people are told stories of how it's going to be so wonderful and there's going to be a whole new experience and you're going to go to heaven where all your relatives are going to be and you're going to, whatever concept of heaven you have is going to be eternally yours.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		That's, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then aren't we weaving a fairy tale according to your belief system?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, not really my belief system.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I'm just telling you what the objective evidence is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Objective evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, objective evidence.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, this is, you know, well, it's one.
		I mean, my belief system would be, you know, you believe in things like life after death, etc.
		But what does the science tell us?
		Yeah, sure.
		I think that the science tells us that we get so far and then we don't know what's after that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you feel about the concept of you know, we're actually perhaps getting close in the next hundred years or so to not dying?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It may well be that science will develop a way for us to remain essentially alive forever, barring some.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think we're certainly going to be living to at least 100 or 120.
		I think people who are born today are most likely going to live to be 100 or 110 or 120.
		I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's, yes, that's in the near term.
		But eventually, if they find all the right keys, they could virtually stop aging.
		And some researchers, doctor, even say regress it.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		To me, that's exciting.
		I don't really, I don't crave getting old, that's for sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that would be the ultimate goal of somebody who thinks that there's a very good chance that even though you would have this experience when you die, essentially there'd be lights out after that.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I am a physician.
		You know, my goal is to write, to prolong life as long as possible.
		Yeah, what's after death?
		I don't know.
		Yeah, but I agree with you.
		It's probably, well, I don't know.
		It's hard to say.
		I mean, you've actually opened the crack in my thinking.
		I'm going to, you know, I don't know.
		I think we just have to wait and see more we learn about these experiences.
		I think there's a lot we could do right now to look into what you're saying.
		There's a guy named Michael Persinger up in Canada.
		He's learned to stimulate this area of the brain.
		He's actually been able to induce this God experience.
		What have you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I've been hearing about that.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		So I think that the next step then is to take his apparatus and let's see whether people who have the induced God experience can communicate then, let's say, with the dead or can demonstrate paranormal talents.
		I think once we start looking at those kinds of issues, that's going to be a lot more convincing to me.
		Most of the people that you interview on your show that communicate with the dead, after all, are professionals.
		I mean, they have kind of a bad track record in terms of being clever con men and such as that.
		I'm saying generically the field.
		Whereas if someone like Michael Persinger is able to take one of his college students, stimulate the right temporal lobe, and that college student discovers he can communicate with a dead relative, that would be very convincing to me.
		And that's what's exciting to me about my research is that at least it points to new avenues of research.
		At least it looks at ways of trying to study these issues.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I start to become convinced when there is contemporary information relayed.
		That's what convinces me.
		Yeah, otherwise I'm kind of with you that an active human brain can probably draw from whatever source we care to name, its own brain or an external source, as you theorize, memories of that person that I think sort of remain forever.
unidentified		Yeah.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, like we're talking about with ghosts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But what I'm searching for here, Doctor, is consciousness after death.
		Consciousness after death.
		And contemporary information that's relayed.
		Well, it goes a pretty long way toward proving that.
		So that's the kind of research I would like to see.
		And I'm sure you would like to be convinced of.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		But that research, to my knowledge, does not exist today.
		You have people that, I think, demonstrate that kind of thing, but I don't know.
		You just always wonder.
		Whereas I think if it could be reliably replicated in a laboratory Setting.
		Now, there is one interesting piece of research.
		I'm sure you're familiar with Dean Raden out of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just over the hill from me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead and expound a bit.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, he took college students and he showed them slides either of pleasant scenes or very unpleasant scenes, you know, car accidents and the like.
		And he hooked them up to measure their blood pressure and their heart rate and such as that.
		And he found that these college students would actually anticipate when they were going to see an unpleasant scene, meaning that even though these slides are shown randomly, their bodies somehow knew their heart rate would rise and their blood pressures would rise before they were shown an unpleasant slide.
		And that's, I think, a fairly convincing piece of evidence that there's something is going on.
		But that's not a communication, you know, like you're saying with contemporary evidence from another consciousness.
		That's not a piece of consciousness type of research.
		But I think that that type of study could be done to try to look at the issue of can we communicate with other consciousnesses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you have patients that are near death and they ask you about it, what do you tell them?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I tell them, first of all, that the perceptions that they have are real.
		And that I think is tremendously important right there.
		I reassure them that what's happening to them is not some sort of meaningless hallucination of their mind, but that it's as realistic experience as any other experience.
		And I try to let them know that the experience that they have may not precisely match what our cultural stereotype of the experience is.
		I have many people that have had profound experiences, but they'll say, but it wasn't a near-death experience because I didn't see a tunnel.
		Or it wasn't a near-death experience because the X, Y, or Z didn't happen.
		And that is the importance of understanding it comes from our own personal psychology.
		And then I encourage them just to try to understand their own meaning of the experience.
		These experiences usually have some sort of powerful spiritual meaning to the person.
		All you really have to do is validate it.
		I don't handle it any differently than, for example, when I'm dealing with a mom that has a baby that cries all night.
		I just look at that mom and I'll say, boy, must be really, you know, tell me what it's like.
		What's it like with a baby that cries all night?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, what would you think that the audience, which is very religious out there, would be thinking about what you've said this morning?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot of religious people are offended by what I have to say.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		That's for sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have this little thing called Fast Blast where I can get comments from my audience on the internet as the show progresses.
		And here's one from somebody named Dr. Suck.
		And the message is, see you in hell.
		Oh, my gosh.
		A little hint of what may be coming.
		You never know.
		But you've been really honest and really forthright, and I really commend you for that.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		It does conflict with a lot of people's deeply held religious beliefs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, obviously, of course it does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure does.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		But let's face it, I mean, these were just books written thousands of years ago for different cultures.
		I think the idea that we sort of cling to them, and yet here we have an area in our brain which allows us to directly communicate with God, I don't really, I think that people should start to use their own abilities to find their own valid spiritual and religious experiences and not be so dependent on someone else's religious vision,
		which is, after all, I think, you know, what you're dealing with when you're dealing with these different religions or Bibles or what have you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I would like to tentatively go to the phones here and see what we get.
		I think I have a pretty good hint, but I would ask my audience, you folks out there, keep it civil because I'm seeing these comments that are coming in, and I know what they mean.
		It means there's a bunch of people out there with Bible in their hand right now, and they're thumping on it, and they're dialing, and they're thumping on it, and they're dialing, and when they get in, look out.
		So we'll see what we get out there.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, good evening, gentlemen.
unidentified		This is the Zen Man from Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Zen man from Alaska.
unidentified		The Zen Man.
		Yes, you know, I used to know a woman who had a son that was in a car accident, and he was in a coma for two months.
		And when he awoke, I had an opportunity to speak with him.
		He said he was fully aware for something like what seemed to him to be a couple hours, which kind of goes back to what the doctor said about timeless, spaceless space.
		Almost like he woke up from a short nap.
		And he didn't see a tunnel and he didn't see his body or anything.
		But he did say he went to a beautiful and comfortable place.
		He said there was a great elder or master that greeted him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's frequent.
unidentified		Yeah.
		And he said that he asked the elder where he was.
		And the elder told him that a human moves upward through spheres of increasingly higher consciousness based on one's capacity for compassion and love.
		Oh, and he also said that the place seemed more real to him than this place.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yes, realer than real is what one child told me.
		He said to me, I said, well, did you think it was real?
		It was realer than real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Realer than real.
unidentified		Now, this brings me to my question for the doctor.
		In the movie Flatliners, there was an element of karmic retribution.
		Now, Doctor, you said that the little girl intimated to you that she went to a fun place.
		I was wondering, have you heard of anyone ever having a panoramic life review like Daniel and Brinkley, where their behavior in life is specifically accounted for?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mostly deal with children, and so it's been pointed out to me that maybe children are immune from that kind of thing or what have you.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And I honestly don't know, but children typically don't have these complex life reviews, and children usually have just very kind of brief, powerful experiences, just really fragments of experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, why wouldn't they have the same thing?
		I used to put snakes in my lunchbox when I'd come home from school, and my mom would open it, and, well, I'd be in terrible trouble, but I did a lot of things that would be considered generally negative for a child.
		So why wouldn't a child go through the same sort of review?
		And why would they be immune?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I can tell you, all I can tell you is I don't hear that kind of thing.
		I'll tell you, here's a typical child's near-death experience.
		This is a girl that we put a needle into her heart to resuscitate her.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold that thought.
		Obviously, we can't get started now.
		We will in a moment.
		A needle into the heart to receive.
		Maybe there's nothing after all of that.
		A brief little experience and a couple of sweet dreams, and then it's down the dark highway.
unidentified		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert, it's a little different tonight, isn't it?
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
		Going through the night like a freight train.
		Don't touch that die.
unidentified		Sweet dreams are made of Indians who have mind to disagree.
		I travel the world and the seven seas.
		Everybody is looking for something.
		Some of them want to use you.
		Some of them want to get used by you.
		Thank you.
		Follow the city of the baby.
		Light from the medium turned the dark to day.
		We're too hot to make me.
		We had to get out before.
		But now I like to get away.
		We were born overnight.
		I'll take it with the saddle.
		I'll come to that night.
		You're born at night.
		Call Arch Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the Toll-Free International line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. with Arthell from the Kingdom of Nye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed, and I've got a really good guest, Dr. Melvin Morris.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I understand the Christians out there are saying, no, he's not a good guest.
unidentified		He doesn't believe what I believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That doesn't make him a bad guest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That just means you don't agree with him.
unidentified		There's a big difference.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's a really good guest.
		He's opened up more than any physician that I think I've ever talked to.
		Actually, he's fascinating.
		And we'll continue with him momentarily.
		It's that kind of an ideal, isn't it?
		All right, back now to Dr. Melvin Morris.
		Hi, Dr. Morris.
		Welcome back.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's somebody who says, is Walter from Odessa, Texas, if a ghost is an echo, how was I physically attacked more than once by it?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to hear more about that story.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Let's hear what that story is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, listen, Doctor.
		I do a program.
		In fact, I'm going to do one at the end of next week called Ghost to Ghost, in which I just let people tell ghost stories.
		And the stories of physical attacks are legions.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		But are they really ghost stories?
		Are they, you know, when I'm talking about a ghost story, the typical kind of ghost story is, you know, a house that's haunted, a place that's haunted.
		For example, one very famous ghost story involves a World War II plane that was in a museum in one location, and they moved the plane, and sure enough, the ghosts moved with it.
		Well, so, you know, to me, that's, I think, a memory embedded in nature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if they were actually, how does the fact that a ghost would move with an airplane or with a home?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I guess, oh, actually, you're saying maybe these ghosts are living in this airplane as kind of its home.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I'm suggesting, yes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I don't know.
		I don't feel I'm on shaky ground here.
		Over a hundred years ago, the scientists at the time investigated ghost stories from the American Psychical Research Society and the British counterpart, and they actually concluded the same thing.
		Let me tell you a ghost story then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But they're like the people that give the snuffed candle award.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No, these were people that were really trying to understand.
		people that give the Snuff Candle Award, they're not real skeptics.
		They're, you know, they actually have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of times when you do a study, you start out with a bias and you end up with a bias.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No, well, PsychOps doesn't claim that they do studies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, they're biased, though.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Right, because, well, they have a religious point of view.
		Their religious point of view happens to be that there is no God or there is no consciousness or nothing exists outside the body.
		But nevertheless, that is starting from a bias.
		And there, I think, I don't think you can put them in the same category.
		Let me just real quick, I can tell you, I bought a house on the Oregon Coast and it was haunted by a ghost.
		And we heard the footsteps of this ghost all the time and we heard a door opening and then we saw the footsteps.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, oh yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you said, no, keep going.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And so we thought to ourselves, well, this must be some sort of ghost.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You heard footsteps or you actually saw footprints or what?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No, we heard them.
		And we didn't just hear them.
		We would occasionally rent the place out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And our renters would also make the same comments.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now, see, that should have modified your attitude a little bit.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Not at all, because listen to the end of the story.
		So the house, we had bought it from an old woman who had lived there her whole life, so we thought that, of course, she had died and her ghost still lived in this house.
		Well, it turns out she was still alive, all right?
		We were haunted, not by a ghost, but we were haunted by the pattern of her life.
		That, you know, every day at 10 o'clock or every night at 10 o'clock, she would get out of bed, walk across the floor, open the closet door, put back her slippers, walk back, and get back in bed.
		And we were haunted by a pattern, by a pattern of being.
		But she was still alive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Awfully, awfully, awfully good point, Doctor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you were haunted by the imprinted pattern of her life.
unidentified		Yes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Now, I'm not saying that there aren't beings that we can encounter from other dimensions or other realities.
		And that's what I think people are talking about when they're saying they're attacked by ghosts.
		I think that falls more into the category of, you know, these people that encounter alien beings while they're in a lucid state of sleep or, you know, or, you know, or such as that.
		People that encounter angels or demonic beings, etc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you allow for their existence?
		Oh, of course.
		You do angels and demonic beings?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there's no question in my mind that angels exist.
		If you pay attention to your own life art, you can find angels.
		And I've seen angels in my own life art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right then, Doctor.
		Let's define angel.
		Sure.
		Angel, please.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		You know, there's, you know, our reality is based on, you know, certain, you know, leptons and muons and, you know, certain subatomic particles.
		Well, we know that there's at least two other realities which are based on similar subatopic particles.
		So, you know, that's well known.
		And we can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're describing a realm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Describe an angel, please.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, an angel would just be, to us, the perception of, you know, whatever those, you know, just like when we use our mind to encounter this universal sort of timeless, spaceless place, people from, you know, other universes also can use their mind to encounter this timeless, spaceless place.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And so I see the interactions between those, you know, these different sentient beings is what we call angels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An angel wouldn't be, for example, an entity that has been with God and has been cast down.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's often the interpretation that we put on it.
		But other people encounter angels and think that they're UFOs.
		And other people encounter angels and think that, you know, and I've heard lots of angel stories in which the angels are perceived as just being ordinary citizens or the one angel that happens, you know, in my own personal life presented just as a medic, just seemed to all intents and purposes.
		But, you know, let me give you a quick example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you wouldn't, again, you wouldn't consider that there, to you, that angel for that person would be an echo, wouldn't it?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me give you an example that is not quite an echo.
		There is a woman psychiatrist from Russia, and she had a recurring experience in which she was out of her body, and she was, you know, presented herself to a group of people who were very astonished to see her and asked her to heal different ailments they had and such as that.
		This was a recurring dream that she had.
		She then traveled to a distant place in Russia and just through various circumstances, encountered people who had a folk belief that a woman that looked just like her would occur to them, would appear to them and interact with them and have different encounters and beliefs.
		So she was their angel, and yet she was just a living human being that she just was just basically communicating with them through time, or through this timeless, spaceless place.
		They just misinterpreted her as being an angel.
		She, in fact, was just a person from the future, that they were just perceiving her energy patterns and interacting with her just the way people interact with after-death communications.
		Well, in her case, you wouldn't call it an echo.
		She was a real person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I hear very clearly what you're saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, if when you die, Dr. Morris, you go through the white tunnel, go whizzing through, end up at the Pearly Gates, and there's a real traditional religious setting there, and a guy way up high on a table with a white beard who's going to look down on you and say, all right, Doctor, you've got a lot of talking to do.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'll look through.
unidentified		I'll be humbled, that's for sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Listen, listen, here we go.
		We've got to get to the phones a little bit.
		Wild Carline, you're on the air with Dr. Morse.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		This is Dave in Perump.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Dave.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, here in town.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Wow.
		And I have a question for Dr. Morse.
		Actually, yeah, a question.
		And I'll need your help because I've been listening this week and everything he's saying coincides with Whitley's new book.
		I mean, The Key.
		The Key.
		Yes.
		And his conversation with that man.
		And then there was an analogy made on another show where God was a lonely being who exploded.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And it's what we now know as Our universe, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was the Big Bang.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm familiar with that.
unidentified		So, if when we die, and that 20% of our brain is responsible, and well, we know that like a half ounce or something like that escapes our body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell Dr. Morse about that.
unidentified		Okay.
		Well, wouldn't it be logical to think that that 20% is the energy leaving our body and becoming energy of the universe and that we are, in fact, going back to what some may call God?
		I mean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To which, Dr. Morris, I guess you would say, what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, gosh.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, I didn't know that there was evidence that something, some piece of energy or something left our body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you a little story, and I'm going to have to ask Keith, my webmaster, to dig for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I heard this as a sort of a myth for years, that there had been a real medical study done, Doctor, a long time ago.
unidentified		Well, it just said it was late 1800s, early 1900s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can't remember.
		Yeah.
		Long time ago.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That put people up on a scale, a very sensitive scale.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And waited for the moment of death.
		Now, I have a copy of this medical study.
		Doctor.
		They actually did this, and they observed the loss of between a half and three-quarters of an ounce at the instant of death.
		Can you imagine any scientific reason in the world why that could be true?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you stop breathing, I guess you stop exchanging water.
		You're not taking in, when you're breathing, you lose quite a bit of water and you gain quite a bit of water.
		Not at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not at the very instant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They actually put people who were dying up there.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Is that referenced on your website?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I would love to read that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It will be.
		I'll get it up there for you.
		I've had it up there, I don't know, a couple of years ago.
		Oh, gosh.
		I couldn't believe it, but I did.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Because I've heard of that, but I've never actually seen the study or known that that was a real study.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if people reproduce that today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you think, Doctor, in today's politically correct world, could you do such an experiment?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No way.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No way.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		That's something I would have to review.
		I'm not saying I'm skeptical.
		Well, I am pretty skeptical of it.
		What kind of scales they had?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's real.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		How accurate they were.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There were good scales.
		It's all described in the study, of course.
		Otherwise, it wouldn't be legit.
		Now, one other thing.
		They tested all kinds of dogs and cats.
		And here's something I really disagree with.
		Noted no loss of weight whatsoever when they passed.
		None.
		Only in humans.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, huh.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, as a dog lover, it's hard to believe that dogs have been.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I agree with you.
		I agree for a change.
		We do agree here.
		And that is that if you imagine a soul of substance in a human, then anybody who's got a pet and loves your pet knows they have souls too.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I always thought, though, that a soul would be something immaterial that you, you know, that would then, of course, defy being.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The caller pointed out the study, and I just had to say it, in fact, was done.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm going to read it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Keith will find it.
unidentified		It's buried somewhere in the archives.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Melvin Morris.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Going once.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see you are there, barely.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		My name is Shane, and I'm calling from Charleston, West Virginia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Shane.
unidentified		How you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Hello, Dr. Morris.
		Hi.
		I need to get doctor's opinion on something that happened to me when I was about 20 years old.
		Incidentally, this is unrelated, Mr. Bell.
		I am an operator for WQBE AM950, and I've been with you since the beginning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, she came back.
		Oh, I see.
		All right.
		Well, that's a short time, actually.
		But I'm glad you've been there.
unidentified		I had a really good friend in high school, and he was killed in a rock climbing accident.
		Well, a couple of weeks before he died, he and I were sitting around a campfire, and he was telling me about a dream he had involving his grandfather, who had passed away several years before.
		He said his grandfather had come to him in this dream and took him into the wall, his words.
		And he said to me very seriously, I think it's my time to go.
		You know, being 18, 19 years old, we're laughing, oh, come on, you know.
		I didn't take it seriously.
		Well, two weeks later, he was killed.
		And this was rather disturbing for everybody when they'd heard about the dream, you know.
		What made it even worse was the fact that he was buried in a mausoleum wall next to his grandfather.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Interesting, wow.
		So it made it worse.
		It wasn't of comfort to you then?
unidentified		Well, it seemed to me that he knew.
		I guess my question is, I don't really have a specific question.
		I just wanted to get your opinion on it.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I certainly have documented many, many such cases.
		In fact, we did a study of mothers who had infants die of sudden infant death.
		And we showed that about 25 to 30 percent of the time, they also had vivid premonitions, you know, not, of course, that they were going to die, but that their infant was going to die.
		And, you know, these are vivid premonitions, you know, things that they would write down in journals, lucid dreams, you know, not just the ordinary fears that a parent might have.
		And certainly we know from studies of adults that many adults know a week or two before they die, and usually it is because they've had some sort of a dream or a spiritual vision, etc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's precognition, right?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, correct.
		Yeah.
		A very nice study in the medical literature, in the nursing journals, in which they actually had a control group.
		They looked at patients who didn't die, looked at their dreams and their visions over a two-week period, and then they looked at the dreams and visions of people who did die.
		And sure enough, they showed that people had these kinds of dreams.
		And they usually had this kind of a flavor, a dead relative coming to them, such as that.
unidentified		I would have discounted it as kind of coincidence, but he did say specifically that his grandfather brought him into the wall.
		He seemed to believe that death was kind of a dimensional thing, that when you die, you actually move to a different level of consciousness.
		And a while after that, a few, I would say, a couple years later, I started having this dream that he was trying to talk to me.
		And I could remember everything that he said up to a point.
		He would say, I'm going to tell you something you have to remember when you wake up.
		And at that point, I can't remember what he told me.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, you need to go to bed at night with a pad of paper and a pencil, and you should just, you know, spend like a few minutes doing some sort of brief self-calming or self-hypnosis or regimen, like, you know, tensing your muscles and sequence or something like that.
		And then you should just ask him, you know, just right before, try to make it your last thought before you go to sleep, you know, tell me what is it you're trying to say.
		And then when you wake up in the morning, write down your very first thought.
		Not your second thought, not your third thought, but that very first thought is a great technique to tap into, you know, what that dream is trying to tell you.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		Now, what I took out of that, Doctor, that was interesting was that most people, by way of premonition or just, you know, if it's a woman, feminine intuition, whatever you want to call it, know they're going to die.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I agree.
		Yeah.
		That's the more exciting part of my research to me.
		You know, that this same area of the brain that allows us to have the near-death experience is the same area of the brain that accounts for our everyday intuition.
		The intuition is known.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, I'm going to say this one more time.
		Why is all of this all that exciting if there's a brief spurt and then followed by blackness or just being a memory circulating out in the ether eternally, but nothing that resembles consciousness?
		Why is it exciting?
		Because it's a short little thing.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, I guess I've been around so many children that have near-death experiences that have emphasized to me.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		They say it again and again, that what they learn from their near-death experience is that life is for living and the light is for labor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		However, they came back to consider that.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's true.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they have the luxury of making sure that hold on, Doctor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're going to break here at the top of the hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		be right back.
unidentified		You'd think the people were badding up a silly little day.
		I used to feel your rolling, don't you know?
		If the core is right, I need to find an answer on the road.
		I used to feel your heart beat more than one.
		But the time came if the thing is for my world gets done.
		Cause I'm never breathing, and still there'll be a freedom Come the days that I was born away tonight Then the donkey freedom took me knee-high to a man Yeah, give me peace of mind my dad, never had Am I?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is really going to be interesting.
unidentified		Want to take a ride?
		Call our bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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		This is Coast to Coast AM with our Bell from the Kingdom of Nana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you something.
		Keith Rowland is really good.
		During the news break, I was able to get the doctor on his computer, and Keith got up before the thunderclap could occur and got this article that we've been talking about on the web.
		And I led the doctor right to it.
		And as we speak right now, he's reading it.
		The article, it's a very rare article, and so the rest of you may want to see it too.
		The way you do it is go to my website, click on program, and then tonight's, let's see, what does it say?
		Tonight's guest info.
		And you'll see a bunch of links that relate to what we're doing tonight with a good doctor.
		And then you'll see the newest link at the bottom of that list, which is the medical study that we were talking about a little while ago that the doctor said he would have to see.
		It's entitled, Soul Substance.
		It's from American Medicine in April of 1907.
		It continues hypothesis concerning soul substance together with experimental evidence of the existence of such substance by Duncan McDougall, M.D. of Haverhill, Massachusetts.
		And it documents the experiments that I just talked to you about regarding weight and the soul and loss of that weight at the instant, the exact instant of death.
		And so the doctor is reading that article that he said he'd love to see right now.
		You can too by going to my website.
		It is, you should preserve it.
		It's a very rare study, very hard to find.
		And I always thought it was myth until I got the hard copy.
		And now you can too.
		Oh, this is going to be interesting.
		So now back to Dr. Melvin Morse.
		And I imagine you've not had an opportunity to read all of this.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No, no, I've read it all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no question.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I'm very impressed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You know, I always thought that this was either a myth or one of these urban legends or some study out of Russia or something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		It's from American Medicine, which at the time was one of the better journals.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And the concerns that I had when you first brought it up, remember I was saying about respiratory effort and the just when you breathe, you take in a lot of moisture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, as you see it, is it all addressed in the area?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		But boy, he really, for your listeners, he looked at about six patients.
		They made every effort to account for how much the dying patients were losing in terms of their respiratory effort.
		And he's very specific that his scale is extremely accurate, can measure one-tenth of an ounce.
		It's a very impressive study.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something to think about, huh?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		That's for sure.
		You know, he himself, the author, you know, points out that, of course, it has to be replicated and other people had to do it.
		You wonder why other people didn't pick up the student.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, but you know today we just you wouldn't get away with it.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you could never do a study like that today.
		That could only be done back in the grand old days of medicine where there was no informed consent and they could do whatever they wanted.
		But boy, he's very wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		We'll leave it at that, Doctor.
		I'm glad we were able to impress you and I hope the audience will go up there and read it as well because for many people it has sort of been a myth and dismissed, by the way, as a myth.
		Oh, I've heard that, but that's not true.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have spent years looking for this article.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I had spent years, too, until I found it.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Wow, for American medicine.
		And people, they should at least know that the author says that in all cases, right at the point of death, the scale drops.
		And, you know, and he monitored these patients anywhere from, you know, it sounds like four or six hours or such as that.
		And he's very rigorous in his design.
		You know, the patients that he screwed up and he, you know, he wasn't ready to measure them and they suddenly died unexpectedly and such as that.
		He includes that and all of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		It's all there.
		All right.
		To the phones.
		First time calling our line, you're on the air with Dr. Melvin Morse.
		Hello.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Mark the Spark, West Palm Beach, Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Mark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Hi, listen.
		Great show.
		I love your show.
unidentified		Welcome back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Okay, my doctor, the doctor, I have a question for you.
		I was shocked by electricity.
		I was an electrician for a lot of years.
		And I received a shock by high voltage.
		It was 220 volts.
		And since then, it wasn't a near-death experience, but at the time that it happened, I was on a ladder.
		And I fell off the ladder, and I seemed to be disconnected.
		I was there, but my vision was like a TV screen at 3 in the morning when the station goes off the air.
		And it lasted for about half an hour.
		And what I was wondering is, now I have these very vivid, powerful dreams.
		And I wonder, do you think there's any connection or relation to that?
		Absolutely.
		I don't know you didn't have a near-death experience.
		That's what I'm saying.
		It was amazing.
		And by the way, Art, I caught your show last night, and I just wanted to let you know I've had five MRIs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And so I've been exposed to that magnetic field that you're talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With any effect, or do you think perhaps that is an answer for what we're talking about right now?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure, but one of the MRIs that I had was what they called a full series of shots, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And I was in there for about 25 minutes.
		And while it was in there, I actually was able to fall asleep, but I had these really, really vivid dreams, and they seemed completely real.
		But when it came out, I found that I had dozed off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, we studied people that had near-death experiences, and we found that their psychic abilities were clearly heightened.
		We looked at adults that had near-death experiences as children, and we found that they had more verifiable psychical experiences than professional psychics that we used as controls.
		This goes back to what we were talking about earlier, Art, about the importance of understanding how personal the experience is.
		You know, you were saying, well, gosh, if the experience is so personalized, et cetera, well, that sort of devalues it.
		But on the other hand, it helps to understand our caller's experience because our callers certainly had a near-death experience, but it just contained imagery that didn't fit with our conventional description of a near-death experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All it devalues is the concept of consciousness continuing.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's all.
		I'm not in any way devaluing the experience itself.
		I'm sure it's very spiritual, very wonderful, comforting, eases death, and does all of that.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		It heightens your psychical ability, activates the very activities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, since he brought that up, electrocution, did you hear the story I read the first hour before you got on the air?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		No, tell me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me read it to you.
		It's from Reuters News Service, mainstream news service, right?
		Just in.
		Electrocuted man rises from the dead.
		A Kazakh man, as in Kazakhstan, okay, who was electrocuted and buried, shocked his friends and family by turning up for his own funeral feast.
		Now listen carefully.
		The man was wrapped in a cloth shroud, according to Muslim tradition, buried in a shallow grave after apparently dying while trying to steal power cables in eastern Kazakhstan.
		But get this, doctor.
		Two days later, he regained consciousness, rose naked from the ground, and actually they go on to say he had difficulty flagging down a vehicle to take him home.
		Yes, I'm sure he did.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Two days in a shallow grave, buried.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You believe that?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what to think of that.
		It's just hard for me to believe, I guess, because you just can't think of it.
		I mean, you would think that decomposition would set in.
		Certainly it doesn't fit with anything in my experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's Reuters News Service for you.
		That doesn't make it golden.
		I thought I'd read it.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Melvin Morse.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, this is Marianne North Pole.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		North Pole, Alaska.
unidentified		Yes.
		Yes.
		For a long time, I've been puzzled by why unpious people can work miracles.
		And I started studying this a long time ago.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I'm laughing because I know an unpious person that worked a miracle.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Go on.
unidentified		Yeah, I think it's a solid system of physics we're dealing with here.
		And I've even said at times that Christ is a physicist, but my Christian friends don't like that, so I quit doing that.
		But if you look at some of this, like there's a vibrational rate within us, an energy.
		I think Mesmer called it animal magnetism or something.
		When that vibration quits, we lose weight.
		When you spin a top at a certain speed, it will actually gain weight.
		You have to get way high up there.
		And then when it quits, it weighs less.
		And I think this is somewhat of an explanation.
		It's a real soft physics.
		You can't put your finger on it.
		I think if we get high-speed, variable-speed cameras, we're going to be able to pick up some of this energy that we're seeing walking around.
		And I think further than rods, this is going to happen.
		Something about Mesmer too.
		He was doing experiments with running wires from people's fingernails over to bathtubs where people had magnets around them sitting in salt water.
		And I think maybe we should go back to some of his work because there's something there.
		Mary Eddie Baker was healed and then formed Christian Science Religion.
		And it's based on the Gimbley papers.
		He was a lab assistant for Mesmer.
		So all this stuff with magnetism, I think, is real interesting.
		And I think we're stumbling onto something.
		Yeah, Mesmer was doing work with Krillian photography also.
		And although he's noted as the father of hypnotism, there was a heck of a lot more going on there.
		I know he was Rosicretian, which means he studied ancient Egyptian philosophy, sort of like in a form of physics.
		And so I thought that was interesting.
		Also, another thing about magnetism is there was a guy who went up to help measure one of the big pyramids.
		This was way back in the early expeditions.
		And he took a bottle of wine up there for him because he knew he'd be up there all day for lunch.
		He opened it and got shocked so bad they had to go up and replace him.
		And so the guy who went back up took a case of wine and they all charged up.
		Well then in another find in Egypt they found these potteries with two electrodes sticking through the top of them.
		And the archaeologist said, well, we don't know what they said, start of a handle or something.
		And a physicist says, oh, that's a battery.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, thank you very much.
		That's a lot of anecdotal stuff.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would like to just comment on a couple things.
		Valerie Hunt, who's a PhD down at, I think, University of California, Los Angeles, she has done a lot of the same kind of work.
		So this kind of work is being done in a modern sense.
		She has actually mapped out the energy patterns surrounding people's body.
		She's shown that these energy patterns change with different degrees of health.
		And she's even shown that people who have had near-death experiences have a unique electromagnetic signature.
		So our caller was kind of in a rambling way pointing at some research that I think is pretty interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Before I forget, earlier, I think I blocked it out mentally before we had a break.
		You were describing a girl and you were sticking a needle in her heart.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		Because I've got to tell you this story.
		The point of the story I'm going to tell you now is that I think when you look at children's experiences that I think are the purest experiences, you get at the heart of the matter, which is that we really don't know what's going on.
		And listen to what she told me.
		Okay, we stuck a needle into her heart, and she was resuscitated.
		So I asked her what she remembered about the time she was in the hospital.
		We always ask them these kind of broad, open-ended questions.
		And she says to me, she doesn't remember anything except she said, suddenly I remember that you were asking for that crash cart thing and the nurses were bringing it to you.
		And she said, and then you did something to me.
		And she said, suddenly I saw my grandmother and I was just so shocked to see her.
		And her grandmother, of course, had died.
		And then she says to me, and then I was back.
		And that was her whole experience.
		And I said to her, well, what do you mean by that you were back?
		And she clenched her fingers in frustration and pounded them on her knees.
		And she said, that's what I've been trying to figure out.
		And I think that that's what, you know, I think that an adult who had the same experience would blend in their own preconceptions, their religious beliefs, and You hear these adult stories that just go on and on and on.
		When you hear these children's stories, they are just these very brief impressions of something that they can't quite understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, doctor, if I was conscious enough to see you coming at me with a needle that you were going to thrust into my heart, that would kill me, right?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, she was.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		If I wasn't already dead, that would be a comatose when that happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remembering, though, that so many patients describe the procedures that went on, right?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		But she did see her grandmother, and her grandmother comforted her here during this procedure, and then she says it's very enigmatic, and then I was back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I just can't understand how you can tell me these things and not make the leap of faith, which after knowing so much as you know, it shouldn't be much of a leap for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, when you tell me these stories, I'm almost, I want to ask you, well, then, how can you not believe?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know, I know.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I had my own experience, but my experience didn't give a hint of life after death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I did have the experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, I know, but a lot of what you're telling me does.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know, I know.
		You know, I think a lot of it is just my own.
		You know, I've come a long, long way, Art.
		You know, when I started all of this, I thought it was a bunch of baloney.
		And I would say that only I've only become really emotionally engaged in this, you know, really thinking that there might be something in it in the last couple of years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a longer journey ahead, Doctor.
		Hang in there.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Melvin Morris.
		Hi.
		Hi, Doctor.
unidentified		My name is Michael.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm calling from Norfolk, Virginia.
		I will talk about your external memory, external brain theory, which I compare to a kind of worldwide web.
		But before I do that, I'd like to discuss the problems of consciousness after death and the impossibility of proving it to a person like yourself who believes in a kind of worldwide web that records everything and who also believes in demons and angels.
		The reason it would be impossible is because it's virtually impossible to prove a negative.
		And what you have to do when you're dealing with a medium is prove that they are not either contacting some extraterrestrial being to get their information or using this World Wide Web that you talk about.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		I think that's, I don't know about the extraterrestrial being part, but right, I think that's the whole problem, right?
		You've summed it up.
		You put your finger on it.
		But let's hear more now.
		You put your finger on the problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, now to look at the problem that you present.
		If, and it's very unclear as to what your anthropology is, but if it is true that men are born with these capabilities and men have been on this planet for thousands of years at a time when the Bible was written,
		then we've got a real problem there because the question is, if you believe in evolution, do you believe that there could be even more superior beings somewhere else in the universe that perhaps even created the mankind that we see on this planet?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Doctor.
		Boy, I'm going to pass on that, Art.
		think that's outside my area of expertise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, no, it doesn't really require any expertise because if you make the assumption that mankind was produced by evolution and therefore Absolutely.
		Evolution.
		We evolution.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With that assumption on the table, then we must also assume that there's a possibility that evolution has occurred elsewhere in the universe and that it may have occurred at a much earlier date than it occurred here, and therefore there may be beings with much more sophisticated technology than we have on this planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold it there, Caller.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I certainly agree with that.
		I think, you know, Christian DeDove is a Nobel Prize-winning scientist who, you know, writes, I think, most movingly about this.
		He wrote a book called Conscious Dust.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, now I got you locked in, Doctor.
		I agree with that.
		Exactly.
		Caller, remember exactly where you are.
		And, Doctor, remember how locked in you were.
		And we'll break here and come right back and continue this.
		Both of you hold on.
		From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast A.M., and I'm Arfell.
unidentified		Ain't it good?
		Ain't it right?
		You are with me here tonight.
		The music playing.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I'll bite its way anytime.
unidentified		I see you, a woman's tender.
		I feel such a sweet surrender.
		We surrender.
		Don't take this mess off of me.
		I can't use it anymore.
		Getting dark, too dark for me.
		Feeling not on heaven's dream.
		Wanna take a ride?
		Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach ART at area code 775-727-1222.
		Or call the Wildcard line at 775-727-1295.
		To talk with ART on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
		I can't shoot them anymore.
		That long black cloud is coming down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As but for music synchronicity or what?
unidentified		I feel I'm not on heaven.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		Dr. Melvin Morse is my guest, and it's been quite a night.
		If you've been listening, you'll have to admit, it's been quite a night.
		So we'll continue and do one final segment coming up in just a moment.
		Stay right there.
		All right, let's resume the storm, shall we?
		The caller thinks it's 2-0.
		The caller has managed to get the doctor to agree that, in fact, we are a product of evolution.
		That, in fact, evolution probably, in all likelihood, occurred elsewhere, probably evolution that precedes ours and that will come after ours, I'm sure.
		So we're that far, and I'm sure the caller thinks it's 2-0.
		So spring it on them, caller.
		Where you to go from there?
		Well, the problem for any honest evolutionist who really believes in evolution and outright rejects the Bible is this.
		They are the equivalent, or you come to the equivalent conclusion for this reason.
		If you believe that intelligences exist in the universe that may precede us by millions or even billions of years, then you have to accept the possibility that those intelligences may have been responsible for the phrase, let us make man after our image.
		All right.
		Well, that's obviously your crashing point.
		Doctor, do you make that leap?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, you ever heard about this Dogon tribe at Africa?
		This is a tribe that believes that we came from a dog star in another galaxy, but they have a sophisticated knowledge of astronomy.
		And I never quite put it together with what the caller was saying, but yes, there is, I mean, there are some sort of intriguing hints like that from, you know, when you study anthropology and such as that.
		This is a, I think it's called The Cirrus Mysteries.
		It's written by an astronomer in England.
		And he took the trouble to actually document what this tribe believed.
		And he showed how they have a lot of sort of belief systems that match with modern astronomy.
		And their myths are that they came from this star.
		And, you know, such as that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or you could have just watched Arthur C. Clarke's 2001.
		Remember the obelisk?
		Yeah.
		That didn't get there by accident.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		But I don't know why that would negate the concept of evolution.
		It just pushes evolution back a few million years or billion years or what have you.
		And when you look at it, like I was saying before the break, Christian de Dove, Nobel Prize-winning molecular biologist, he says that there is an imperative in the universe to evolve towards conscious life.
		So not just that we evolve, but specifically that we evolve towards conscious life.
		So if that's true, then I think it is reasonable that we have evolved in multiple places throughout the universe.
		I'm not sure why that, you know, I'm not sure the leap I don't understand is why that then sort of solidifies the Bible's.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm with you there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There may have been some further crashing point that we missed, unfortunately, that would have gone in that direction, but I don't see how from where he went.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Melvin Morse.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes.
		You're trying to wake up here.
		Just a quick answer to what he had to say.
		You know, and then the question, if all the capability human beings from whenever to here cannot make life, all right, the probability to my understanding, it looks like it's pretty slim.
		But the question is this, Doctor, are you familiar with the writings of Dr. Osis and Dr. Harrelson?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, of course.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Pioneer near-death and researchers, absolutely.
unidentified		Well, yes, you know, and they brought out the experiences of 2,000 people.
		And most of them were death experiences where they had apparitions of people coming to get them.
		Correct.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		And we alluded to that in the last hour.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Research shows that when people die, these apparitions do come for them.
unidentified		Yes, but one thing they brought out in some of the accounts was there was accountability in that people's relatives would come for them under some circumstances and people unknown to them would come to them if they did not live a just life, apparently.
unidentified		But what's your thinking?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to have to disagree with you.
		That is not my interpretation of Oslo and Harold's work.
		They did a lot of work on Indian experiences, not Native American, but from India.
		And they found that in India it was more of a bureaucratic society and kind of people would say things like, oh gosh, you know, you're not in our book and such as that.
		I thought the accountability examples really came from their examples from American society, but not necessarily from their examples from Indian society.
unidentified		Well, you know, in both the Hindu and Muslim that they accounted, of course, about half were in the U.S. and Canada.
		And the episode where it was, You're Not in My Book was when they came and took a person of one name, and there was another person in there with an identical name.
		And the one person regained consciousness, or we might say, started breathing again, and the other person of the same name died.
		But there was this accountability question came indeed in the Hindu experience in the Indian hospital.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
		I'm going to have to read that work again.
		But, you know, I certainly agree with you in the sense that I don't know about always accountability, but certainly when we die, it's a time for learning.
		Well, certainly we learn something, and obviously the accountability factor or the judgment factor or the life review factor is part of that learning experience.
unidentified		Well, you know, the Mormon leader Brigham Young made the comment, you know, if you spend five years, or excuse me, five minutes in the afterlife, you'll know more than all the books that have been written.
unidentified		Have you ever had an afterlife experience, Doctor?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I have not, but certainly the children would agree with you.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I have studied many, many children that have had these experiences, and they would say that absolutely, that they learn more from that brief near-death experience than they learned in their entire lives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, but, doctor, you know, I listened to you, and you're such a contradiction in so many ways.
		You talk about this wonderful learning experience at death, at death's door, knocking on heaven's door, whatever, this wonderful experience, learning experience, which is followed by absolutely nothing.
		You're a living, breathing, walking contradiction.
		I mean, what of what?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		It's hard for me.
		I will admit, Art, I think you've done an excellent job of bringing out my own ambivalence with this material.
		It does go against my grain.
		It's hard for me to accept this on an emotional level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I really appreciate, though, you're nevertheless just giving the hard, cold facts and not going beyond that.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		It's tough to be very difficult to make the leap and say that there's some kind of life after death.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		All right.
		First time caller align.
		You're on the air with Dr. Melvin Morse.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good evening, Art.
		Good evening.
		And, Doctor, I am the son of two ordained ministers and obviously was brought up very spiritual and with religion, etc.
		And I have had two near-death experiences, one when I was 26 years old and the other when I was 42.
		I would like to endorse 99% of what the good doctor has said this evening about all the experiences, the tunnel, the light, hearing what people are saying, etc.
		I think the point that I wanted to make was when I came back on both occasions, it gave me a much, much greater appreciation of life.
		And I am not looking forward to death.
		However, I have to tell you, I do not fear death at all.
		Matter of fact, there is a scripture that says, you know, I put before you life and death, therefore choose life.
		And I have learned to appreciate life more than I think I ever could if I had not had those experiences.
		And one of those experiences allowed me to meet my father who had deceased and speak.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Now, are you listening to this art?
		No, I'm listening.
		Emphasizing the importance of living life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm listening.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But by percentage, how many people get to have this experience that we're getting so excited about?
unidentified		Well, Art, here's something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By your own stats, Doc, pretty few.
unidentified		Here's something else I'd like to point out, that I am a Christian and I believe that way.
		However, near-death experiences is not confined to Christians.
		Not just Christians come back.
		I've heard Jews come back.
		I've heard blacks come back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, sure.
unidentified		All people come back.
unidentified		So if indeed there is a God of the Bible, okay, he's no respecter of persons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, fine.
		We'll leave it there.
		He's no respecter.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That, I think, is pretty well established.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I'll just tell you a real quick one that one girl who comes from a family with no religious beliefs, she told me that three doctors were at her bedside.
		And I said to her, well, how did you know they were doctors?
		She said they were 14 feet tall and they had light bulbs in their bodies.
		You know, I think a more religious child would have called them angels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, perhaps so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have a book called Into the Light, right?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Closer to the Light was my first book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Closer to the Light.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		My most recent book is called Where God Lives, Paranormal Science and How Our Brains Link to the Universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's interesting.
		Just above your name, it says Into the Light.
		So it's something you must have considered.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if somebody's going to do a first reading of Dr. Morse, what would you recommend?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, gosh, I wish they would read this book, Where God Lives.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		That really is a book that tried to summarize my whole 15 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
		Really?
		Why would Dr. Morse write a book called Where God Lives?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, because this area in the brain is this is where I believe what people call God is right in our brains.
		I don't think, you know, people don't have to look very far for the God experience.
		You know, what do they say?
		A fool looked for fire with a lighted candle.
		You know, yeah, you don't have to look very far for the God experience.
		We're all hardwired to have it.
		You don't have to care whether I believe in life after death.
		You know, each person has the ability to access this own experience themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where is your book available?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Gosh, it's on Amazon.com or I guess in the library or our bookstores.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bookstores?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Currently in bookstores?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Dr. Melvin Morris.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		You say Wildcard?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's you.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		This is Stephen Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Stephen.
unidentified		You've already answered my first question.
		I've asked many of Art's guests, has anyone ever met a ghost that later turned out to be alive?
		And so I'll direct this to Art.
		Could you open a My Ghost Turned Out to Be Alive line when you hold the ghost to ghost?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Say that again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could I do what?
unidentified		Hold a line open for those who found out that their ghost is still alive.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		You've also had a ghost that was alive?
unidentified		I haven't personally, but I've been asking for years.
unidentified		It's the first time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got to be honest.
		And look, I've done the show a lot of years, and I have never before heard about a ghost that's still alive.
		It's intriguingly fascinating.
unidentified		I've been asking for years, your guests, and nobody else has ever heard of one either.
unidentified		Anyway, my question was, number one, I've had a near-death experience when I died on an operating table, and then I had another one when I went into a grand mall seizure, and I understand that they have similar activities for this date rape drug and for centrifugal force and oxygen deprivation, etc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		LSD, etc.
unidentified		And I was wondering what's the difference is between them.
		And let me ask real quick, and then I'll get off the air and listen on the radio.
		Secondly, reincarnation.
		Once you figure in the fact that time is not relevant on the other side, and multiple children could be living from the same soul during the same time period, doesn't that, I mean, I heard you completely negate reincarnation because children were coming up with the same story of the same life.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, it doesn't seem as simple to me that the same soul is recycled through body after body after body.
		It seems more complex than that to me, yes.
		The first question, how about if I answer your first question?
		That's a lot easier.
		Yeah, sure, go ahead.
		I think that, well, first of all, nobody has systematically studied this issue, so I wish somebody would.
		Nobody has ever looked into whether the ketamine-induced experience and the mescaline-induced experience is the same as the near-death experience.
		There was a group of scientists at Northwestern University, get this art, they were actually suffocating patients with a mixture called the Medoon mixture.
		And these were, you know, these weren't, you know, these weren't way out doctors.
		This was a guy named Atkinson, who at the time was the head of the gastroenterology department at Northwestern University back in 1960.
		And he was actually inducing the near-death experience, you know, by, you know, having people breathe a very high concentration of carbon dioxide.
		But unfortunately, you know, he didn't do any further research on them, you know, the kinds of things we'd like to know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was that the center thrust of the research to induce the NDE?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And he thought that he would, well, he cured a lot of people of their physical ailments.
		And he mostly focused on the personality transformation.
		And he felt that this was psychotherapy in a bottle.
		He envisioned a day where practicing doctors in their office would suffocate their patients and basically cure them of their neuroses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, here's an interesting thing.
		Let me ask you about this.
		There's a lot of recent medical evidence that people who have undergone open heart surgery and or heart transplants end up with significant personality changes.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To what do you attribute that?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I attribute it to that they've had near-death experiences.
		But that's the kind of research that needs to be done.
		And it is being done.
		A guy named Bruce Grayson over at the University of Virginia is starting to do a lot of this research.
		But my impression is that they're all the same experience, that it doesn't really matter how this area of the brain gets triggered, whether it gets triggered in the process of dying or whether it's what's called the hypnagognic state, which is that sort of dreamy, half-awake, half-sleep state, or whether it's a lucid dream.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or magic mushrooms may be another path, right?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I know it's not politically correct to say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is not a politically correct show.
		I'm asking you straight out.
		It may be as valid a path, right?
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		I was as a medical student, I was at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Washington, D.C., where they did a lot of the LSD research.
		And when you talk to those old-time LSD researchers, they would tell you that people's lives were transformed by it.
		You know, they described the same kinds of changes through this kind of LSD research that you see with near-death research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I talked to Terrence McKenna before he passed on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He was a big researcher.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and what did he say?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Timothy Leary, too.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, Timothy Leary, of course, would think of this as a transforming experience.
		So, you know, I don't really know whether it's the same experience because, like I said, nobody has systematically studied it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, and they don't talk about it because that one's against the law.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So anyway, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Morris.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		Hello.
		I just wanted to ask him, I have fallen asleep and missed some of the show.
		I'm sorry.
		But how do you predict, how does he reconcile that people can predict things years ahead?
		And how can I know what the weather is going to be the next three months or even the next day without listening to the weather?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
		Because my theory is that we use a certain part of our brain called our right temporal lobe to access a timeless, spaceless, sort of endless source of energy and knowledge that physicists would call non-local reality, which is basically all of reality all wrapped up together.
		So seeing the future and seeing the past, of course, then would be quite straightforward because you're accessing this timeless place.
		I would use as evidence of that when you look at people like, for example, Edgar Casey, who I think a credible sort of prophet, one thing that you notice about them is they can't tell you exactly when it's going to happen.
		And Edgar Casey himself said that when he was in these States, he couldn't really tell whether it's going to happen in 10 years or 100 years or 1,000 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remote viewers have the exact same difficulty.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They seem to get the events right and the timelines way wrong.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		But remote viewing studies also show that it's not time dependent.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		For example, they can ask someone to remote view what a target, you know, what the target person is going to see tomorrow or saw yesterday, and they're just as accurate With those kinds of targets, as they are with real-time targets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, this has been so much fun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have been so much fun, but we're out of time.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Gosh, it seems short, Tara.
		I'll have to tell you, it was grueling.
		You've exposed all of my contradictions and weaknesses, but I think it's because we're still learning.
		I encourage everyone to look at this from an objective point of view.
		The true insights, I think, haven't come true yet.
		Like I told you earlier, I'm hoping all my theories will be proven wrong, but in the doctor's, we'll learn what's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's still time for that, but not for the show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, my friend.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much, Art.
dr melvin morse ▲ ● ▼		I really enjoyed it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to go watch the Las Vegas Outlaws clobber Los Angeles later today.

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