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April 11, 2000 - Art Bell
45:34
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard C. Hoagland with Tom van Flandern - Cydonia Photos
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Who's used?
I wonder if you have a light on or something.
Uh, no.
No?
No.
Uh, it sounds hyper-dimensional to me.
Very appropriate.
Yeah, there is hum, though, so... That's weird, nothing's changed.
You're not on a portable, are you?
Oh, no, of course not.
Move it a little bit.
I mean, I can't really move the desk that much.
No, the phone.
I am moving the desk set phone.
Doesn't seem to want to... Maybe you should try another line.
Well, we'll live with it.
Okay.
It's all right.
All right, so anyway... Backstage radio.
Love it.
So anyway, here come these photographs from Mr. Malin out O.V.
Blue.
We think political pressure because of this divisive thing between JPL and NASA.
But anyway, they're here.
We have the photos.
They took them of Cydonia.
Yep.
They missed the face.
Of course.
But they got Zufort and more.
And more.
And so, now, more days have passed, and we have looked these photographs over.
If you want to give any background on why we got the photographs... Well, it's important to know this is a drama that's been going on for 20-some years.
The first photographs were taken in the summer of 1976 by Viking.
They came out in a very curious way, tongue-in-cheek, very softened.
The Viking program scientist stood up in front of a bunch of us at JPL on an afternoon and said, isn't it funny what tricks the light and shadow can do?
And showed the face.
In close-up.
And it was splotchy, and it had noise in it, and it had pixel dropouts, and transmission errors, and I mean, it just looked like crud.
And we all said, ah, it went away!
And he said at the same time, oh, by the way, when we took a picture a few hours later, the whole thing was just a trick of light and shadow, and it had all gone away.
Well, many, many years later, and I've written an entire book describing this in exquisite, excruciating detail, called The Monuments of Mars, A City on the Edge of Forever, which you can get at Amazon.
Anyway, I described the process of investigation by DiPietro and Molinar, and the teams I put together, people like Mark Carlotto, and of course, Ben Flandern, and, you know, Errol Torren, and a whole bunch of scientists, really solid people, who basically have said over the last generation, Art, wait a minute, NASA, you're not playing with a full deck here.
This is an extraordinarily interesting and important problem.
If those of us that have looked at this are right, then everything changes.
And Stan McDaniel, who of course was at that time the head of the philosophy department of Sonoma State University, wrote a three or four hundred page report with exquisite, careful, meticulous footnotes, which was sent to NASA a couple of days before the next mission after Viking.
Mars Observer was supposed to go and maybe take new pictures, And the day or two after that report arrived, where there was a scathing indictment in McDaniel's report that NASA was about to commit the most egregious crime against science in the history of science by ignoring Cydonia, the whole spacecraft disappeared.
And Dr. Tom, Michael Malin rather, was the principal investigator on the camera on that mission.
He was as resolute then as he apparently is now, that this is all nonsense, it's not science, it's not real, why are you bothering me?
Go away!
And so... Now this was the same, Dr. Madelon, who had said earlier, I will keep taking photographs of Cydonia until everybody is satisfied.
Well, not exactly.
Yeah, he did say that, too.
Well, no, no, actually, we sent Golden.
Golden said it, but Golden was supposedly...
I mean, Mike Malin works for us through NASA under a NASA federal government contract.
Well, I wasn't satisfied.
Well, neither was I. Anyway, fast-forwarding the film, the Mars Surveyor was the replacement for Mars Observer, and it went up a couple, three years ago, and has been in orbit now, taking pictures.
Two years ago, in April of 1998, after this audience, the folks listening to my voice, expressed their constitutionally given opinion to Dan Golden and John Holliman and Ted Koppel and a whole
bunch of other folks, we want those pictures, suddenly, miraculously, magically.
Dan Golden said, okay, and Carl Pilcher, his deputy, set up a formal agreement with JPL
and with Malin to take three images across the month of April 98, which they did.
Unfortunately, the images were very, very, very, very poor.
Yeah, how come, by the way?
Well, you know...
I mean, when all the other photos were high resolution and really cool...
Oh, this camera and that spacecraft have given us gangbuster views of Mars.
I mean, right now, though, on the websites all over the world, and on the news wires, you can see images of the South Pole, where you can almost count the penguins.
Just kidding, folks.
Just kidding.
We've not discovered penguins on Mars.
But they're crystal-clear, razor-sharp, nice shadows, wonderful, you know, gamma, everything you'd want.
Just somehow, every time this camera tries to take Sedonia, it doesn't quite work out well.
So, up until two years ago, we thought we weren't going to get pictures.
Then suddenly, because of the oar-pourings of this audience, we got pictures.
And they said, okay, that's all we're going to get.
My friend John Holliman, God rest his soul, went to Golden after he received hundreds and hundreds of emails.
And asked Dan, you know, what's with this?
Are you going to, you know, satisfy people?
And Golden made the promise to him, on a stack of whatever they do at NASA headquarters, that he would continue taking pictures, this is a direct quote, which will be in my very extensive piece that I'm doing with Mike Barra, on our website sometime between now and the next couple of days.
We've had a lot of work to try to do, so we decided tonight to put up images first, so people can see some of the real goodies.
that we found that Tom and I are going to discuss.
You're telling me that the photos we're about to talk about are on your website?
Oh, they will be.
Scotty Roland from the wilds of Las Vegas is doing this by remote control tonight.
He's using magic as opposed to technology, but he's going to get them up there.
They've all been Twitted over to him, and he will put them up in the next few minutes, certainly within the program.
All right.
So just keep going to EnterpriseMission.com or to ArtBell.com, and at some point, magically, you will see some astonishing things that we are going to talk about Over the next 45 minutes.
All right, on that note, hold on for a minute, Richard.
I didn't do my break.
I must do that.
I must do my break.
Here we go.
All right, now to the photographs that we are going to be discussing.
That'll be on my website.
Actually, not mine, but if you'll go to my website, you'll see a link to Richard's very shortly.
They're in the process of going up.
Richard loves doing stuff at the last minute.
Do you know how many hundred square miles we've got suddenly dumped on us?
Um, I know.
You know, people look at these and say, oh, I can spot the artificial stuff.
Yeah, there's the, there's the bandshell and there's the, you know, the Yankees, uh, uh, Mets game.
I mean, come on!
You know, when you look at satellite reconnaissance imagery over the last 30, 40 years, there are teams of experts who sit in rooms looking at high-res images like we've got here with magnifying glasses and computer enhancements and All kinds of algorithms that do this for a living and get paid very, very well.
And we're all doing this almost on a volunteer basis, and we've got a few other things to do, so yeah, it kind of wound up at the last minute.
But it's still going to be there, and you have a five-hour show, so it will be there during the program.
That's right.
And it will be there in exquisite additional detail as we upload things across the next several days.
When Mr. Olberg is on your show on Thursday night, Friday morning, there will be delicious, juicy, interesting things to talk about.
James Olberg, who worked at Mission Control for years and years and years in Houston.
And has come up with some very intriguing indictments of NASA, his old... That's absolutely amazing.
Anyway, these pictures.
You know, obviously we've been very suspicious that something is rotten in Denmark because they sat in this drawer.
There is an agreement on the JPL website that was hammered out between the SPSR people, that's the Society for Planetary Steady, which includes people like McDaniel and Carlotto and Horace Crater and a whole bunch of scientists that I brought into this game many, many years ago, and ourselves as part of the Art Bell Contingent, which formed the political action side of things, and we together forced NASA to do what it didn't want to do over somebody's dead body, namely take these first pictures three years ago.
There is an agreement to that, to what was actually going to happen, henceforth, on the JPL website, which will be linked to the things we're going to post in the next few days.
In that agreement, it specifically says, it specifically states that NASA, the Mars Surveyor Project, JPL, whatever, will give adequate warning when a Cydonia imaging pass was coming up.
That was so everybody would be on the same level playing field.
No hanky-panky of hiding pictures, or doctoring pictures, or doing God knows what with pictures.
Richard, on your website now are new details of the THOL US FOLIS.
That's it!
Is that what we've been waiting for?
That's one of the things you've been waiting for.
Okay folks, they're up there now.
Because one of the strips that Malin took, and then sat on, was a high-resolution pass over this remarkable thing at the end of the Sedonia complex, at the eastern end, called the FOLIS.
Which looks, initially, kind of like Silbury Hill in England, taken on an aerial photograph.
What the hell is that, Richard?
Well, it turns out now that- It looks like a round, almost round, hole.
What's a hole?
No, it's a- it's a raised structure.
Okay, that's raised.
It's raised, yes.
The shadows are coming from the left.
I gotcha.
And it is oval, it is not round.
That thing on the top is kind of like a ditch or a moat or something.
But the neat discovery, and there should be a composite up there, is that when we look now at these extraordinary high-res images, which have probably four or five feet per pixel... Oh, God, these are absolutely great compared to what we had in the cat box photo.
Yep, yep.
Well, on the top of the photo, as it turns out, there is, drumroll please, a ruined tetrahedron.
Well, there's a ruined something.
I can see it.
Yep, and if you just follow the albedo, the shading, you can see the outline.
This thing is eroding, eroding, eroding, and when buildings collapse, they kind of spread.
It's like middle-age spread.
You think this was a building?
It was a huge tetrahedron.
Now, what is remarkable is, if you look at the map on the far right of the picture, that tetrahedron, the folus, is at 19.5 degrees to the other tetrahedron up on the rim of the crater to the north of it.
And so you've got two tetrahedrons connected by a 19.5 angle to the cliff.
Right.
And, of course, the circumscribed angle.
If you put a tetrahedron in a sphere, where it touches is a 19.5 north or south.
So there's a redundancy, an overwhelming redundancy here, which is just wondrous.
I mean, this is what science is.
It's confirmation of the model.
All right.
Well, look, we have... If you look at the details, let me get to a couple of additional details.
There is a hole or a crevice or something to the south of the apex of this.
We speculated in the Viking photographs.
What in the world was that?
Somebody, you know, I think was cut out of thought.
It might have been the entrance.
When you look at that in detail now... I'm looking at it.
You see there is structure.
There is latticework.
There are girders.
There are structural supports.
You know what?
I actually do see that.
Yep.
I do see that.
Yep.
And obviously... What the hell is that anyway?
It's a huge entrance!
And it's collapsed because entrances are the weak point in a structure, so obviously around entrances, doorways, you want erosion taking place, and think how many millions of years.
It is weird.
Alright?
I'll give you that.
Listen, we have an expert here.
Professor Van Flanderen has been going over these, and I think he should be part of this conversation.
Absolutely.
Alright, Professor Van Flanderen, welcome to the show.
Yes, good evening.
How are you doing tonight?
Well, I'm fascinated.
I'm looking at these new images, and I must say, Gee, real pictures!
Richard and I have both been working hard at this.
There are so much data released.
I don't want to complicate your life, but I also have some extracts that I took from the released images and put over on the Metta Research website.
If you go to Enterprise, at the top, there are links to Tom's site.
It's one-stop shopping.
Alright.
There's also links to Carlotto's initial take on some of these images a few days ago.
Just go to my website, folks.
There's a link right there to take you, you know, Tonight Show info will take you right there.
Alright.
Professor, you've had a few more days now to look at all this.
What is your professional opinion?
Well, I mean, you know, I asked you the other night, are we looking at something artificial?
How much further toward being convinced of that are you tonight?
Well, I have good news and bad news on that score.
All right.
Looking at overall of the new images so far, I didn't see and Both Richard and I, I should say, have seen things in there that fascinate us, but I didn't see anything and I haven't seen a report of anything that I would classify as smoking gun evidence of artificiality that can begin to compare with the evidence we already had from the face.
Right.
In my view, and I'll state it again, the face is proven artificial beyond a reasonable doubt.
Well, dammit, I've got this feeling that the face photo is still in the drawer.
I think it's more than one, because we now know that he's had 15 opportunities to cross Sedonia since last April 98.
And what the pattern appears to be is that every time he went across Sedonia, he took pictures.
Now, I find that extraordinary given his public position.
He said at meetings, and Tom was actually a witness, Where he stood up and apparently decried and lamented how Dan Golden had twisted his arm and forced him to do this and it was damn not science and it was stupid and it was ridiculous and he felt embarrassed and he'd never do it again and we find out that quietly behind the scenes he's been taking every picture he could.
What's wrong with This picture, pun intended?
Of Cydonia, not of the face.
Yeah, I know, but the question would be, Tom, if what you're saying, professionally, is accurate, that the best case is for the face, regarding artificiality, almost beyond any shadow of a doubt, pun intended, then where the hell are the pictures of the face?
We'll be right back.
How many opportunities?
Fifteen opportunities?
It is, even if you look at the last movie, the most interesting part of Mars.
And where are the photos, huh?
Where are they?
We'll be right back.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Yes, indeed it is.
Richard C. Hoagland is here along with Professor Tom Van Flanderen.
We're discussing the high-resolution photographs of the Cydonia area minus the face, which is like talking about a body without a face.
Trying to describe a body without a face.
These really are high-res photos, and the entrance really is interesting.
We're going to get the professors take on that in a moment.
Stay right where you are.
All right, once again, Richard C. Hoagland and Professor Tom Van Flanderen.
And, Professor, we were just talking about, you know, we've got these wonderful high-res photographs of Part of the Sedona region, minus the all-important face.
And I want to discuss these photographs that we just have up tonight in a moment, but is it beyond the pale that we do not yet, after 15 passes, have another good, clear photograph this good, as I'm seeing this stuff tonight, of the face?
Well, that's bad luck, but not beyond the pale.
One of the snapshots I posted at the MetaResearch site is an overview of where the strips are in the Cydonia region.
And you can see that we've, despite eight new strip images added to the three we already had, we've still only covered a fraction of the Cydonia region.
Approximately a 20 kilometer square region of Mars.
Just bad luck?
Yes, there was one of the images that started out heading toward the face And that was the one that had a malfunction.
Well, how many malfunctions like that do they have?
That was the only one in the set of eight or nine strip images just released.
They have had previous malfunctions.
For example, in one of the original Cydonia images, there was an interruption Alright, let us address what we do have.
covered from after a small section of the image was lost.
So these things do happen.
These things do happen.
It's just bad luck that it happened on the one that was headed toward at least part of the face on this occasion.
All right, let us address what we do have.
Now, I must admit, when I look at these photographs, particularly the one of the entrance, I see, oh, I don't
know, Tom, I see what Richard's talking about a little bit. It almost looks like ruins within the entrance,
but it may not be.
I mean, it could just be holes and crags and rocks, and it's hard to tell, but it does look kind of interesting.
Well, I think you said, put your finger right on it right there, if you look over all these images, you don't see any one thing That jumps right out at you and says, this couldn't possibly be natural, it has to be artificial.
Right.
But we're looking at very large-scale things, much, much larger than buildings.
They are hundreds of meters to kilometers in size.
Okay, just as an example, the entrance that I'm looking at that is interesting, how big is it?
That's probably of the order of Half a kilometer to a kilometer in diameter.
Oh, no, not the entrance on the Tholus.
The whole Tholus itself is only a mile across.
Oh, OK.
So look at the size of the hole, Art, compared to the diameter of the structure.
And that'll give you a rough rule of thumb.
OK, well, then bring it down to size for me.
How big?
Well, it's on the order of 100, maybe 75 feet.
So the things we're seeing in there are structural kind of supports we're familiar with.
You agree with that, Tom?
Um, okay, well, if you're just talking about, uh... The entrance alone.
You're calling the entrance.
Oh, yes, it would probably be a little bit larger than that, but not much.
Well, that's a pretty damn good picture of it.
I mean, there's a lot of relief there.
There's a lot of detail.
And if they had one of the face of that magnitude, the argument would be over.
Well, remember, back when I got involved in this, I was interested in Sidonian not just because of the face,
which is the potential for being a trick of light and shadow, a projection, you know, the clouds of Berengeria 7,
to quote from Star Trek.
What got me involved was the relationship of these very interesting geometries to each other.
And the way I've been trying to construct our protocols is you look for things that will build on that model.
Now, finding a ruined tetrahedron on the top of the Tholus at the tetrahedral angle of 19.5 degrees to another tetrahedron
up north on the edge of that cliff, the edge of that crater, that's the kind of redundancy
which is echoed on the other side of the complex in the mounds that I originally looked at,
and then that Horace Crater and Stan McDaniel did a lot of work on,
and found overwhelming tetrahedral redundancies to this level of trillions to ones against chance.
It's not any one object or any one feature, it's the sum total of the whole ball of wax.
Do you agree with that assessment, Doctor?
No, I don't agree with it, but I have to say that although I'm working on my own interpretation of what the Cydonia images contain and what they mean, any interpretation at this point, including mine, is somewhat speculative.
Shall we say, depends completely for its credibility on the argument that purports to prove that the face is artificial, because if that isn't a given, then the other things we're seeing here, and you'll see quite a number of them at my site, of the objects that I think are suspicious looking and trying to give us a message about what Cydonia is all about, none of those would That would be impressive enough to compel a conclusion that they have to be artificial unless the face is, but given that the face is artificial, then all of these other things are certainly artificial too, because we get triangles, sharp angles, parallel lines, special shapes far, far more often than occur normally on planetary and moon surfaces.
Professor, what about the rest of Mars?
Is the rest of Mars as interesting and suspiciously possibly artificial?
Generally speaking, not.
There have been just a couple of other places on Mars that have been spotted that seem to show some suspicious things that people want to have a closer look at, but nothing anywhere else so far on Mars That is as large an area containing so many anomalous looking objects as the Cydonia area.
So, if you were setting a list of priorities, of things that should be looked at, Cydonia would be at the top of the list?
That's right.
I'd be making that Mission to Mars movie as the NASA's marching orders for the next generation.
And the face would be at the top of the list of Cydonia?
That's right.
It sure would.
Top of my list.
Well, the nice part about Sedona is you've got so many neat things in a relatively small area that you could use rovers, and depending upon your stay time, if it was a year, you could visit everything, investigate all kinds of things, go inside.
I mean, that's the place to land because if you're looking for intelligent life or ruins, It's the single signal in the noise that says, come here.
Richard, is it a reasonable place to land, Richard?
In other words, could you get one of their little buggies down there?
There's tons of flat areas.
In fact, as you know, we were really, really hoping that the Pathfinder had been targeted secretly to land, you know, somewhere at Cydonia.
Let me make one important point.
First of all, you guys have all crashed Enterprise.
We can't get in.
That's a success tonight.
And you're going to have to look over the next several days to see these things, and to linger over them, and to download them, and to look at them yourselves.
You're going to have to read the analyses that we're posting, because that's important.
And you're going to have to look at the new stuff we're going to upload in the next several days.
And then in about two weeks, in the first major weekend in May, in conjunction with Cause and Peter Gersten, Enterprise is going to Phoenix, Arizona, Actually, to Scottsdale, to do a major two-day series of seminars, workshops, on all the new data and the political implications of the real mission to Mars.
And we will have photographs, and you can look at them at your leisure.
We'll spend hours and hours with you.
There's going to be two sets of presentations on Sunday.
There's a contact number.
If you want more information, just call 602-850-3254.
602-850-3254.
That's 602-850-3254.
And it will give you all the information you need.
We're going to repeat this between now and the time that Art, unfortunately, is leaving us.
But this is a way to get up close and personal, because I frankly think, and I think Tom does agree with me,
that we're at some kind of watershed.
I mean, for two years, we wanted new pictures, wanted new pictures, wanted new pictures.
We then have an administrator who has a huge set of problems with JPL.
Richard, there is some news that we didn't get a chance to get to last time, speaking of the administrator.
There is talk now of a manned mission to Mars.
How soon?
The cover of Time Magazine last week, which had a picture of Dan Golden in a space suit walking a Sony Automaton dog against the backdrop of the Mission to Mars set.
Really?
You will see this on our website.
We will compare the photographs and show you why it's really Dan Golden.
He has this grim glint in his eye.
Yeah?
It looks like he's saying, I got it.
I got it.
Now, the article inside says that the first opportunity to go is 2007.
And?
This is, you know, seven years from now.
Well, I know.
Is Dan saying he's going?
We're going?
Well, no.
They haven't said that.
Remember, he said on CNN a couple weeks ago that within, like, ten years now.
Yes, yes.
You've got to read the tea leaves here.
None of this is linear.
None of this they're going to tell you.
I think we're building towards something.
And I think that Tom can affirm that when he talks to the experts, they say, and correct me if I'm wrong, Tom, that technically we could be there in 2007, or we could leave in 2007, provided the money was there.
It all comes down to Congress.
So why is Dan moving the goalposts closer?
Why is he on the cover of Time Magazine in a spacesuit last week?
Why did Malin suddenly dump eight new wondrous images of Cydonia on us?
Well, I was going to just make a general comment.
Why did Golden suddenly tell us that the head of the NSA, the former head of the NSA, Admiral
Bobby Inman, is really running the JPL program, as he did in his speech?
In other words, you put all these tea leaves together, and this is the way the Soviet watchers
used to do it.
They used to try to read the mind of the guys in the Kremlin.
I do find the Inman thing a little strange.
It's exquisite.
Do you, Tom?
Well, I was going to just make a general comment.
I don't, as a rule, agree with the conspiratorial interpretation of these facts, but Richard
and I were talking earlier on the subject of manned missions to Mars, and I expressed
how I would love to be on such a mission and go there myself, especially if it was headed
towards the Cydonian.
He allowed that he would, too, and I wondered if we could get on the same manned mission, and I said, Make me a believer in conspiracy theories, because I predicted if he and I were on the same manned mission, it has a very low probability of returning successfully.
Yeah, I certainly would agree with that, but I would consider the odds of the two of you being on the first manned mission to Mars greater than those of, you quoted about, face.
Hey look, in this wondrous winds of change, Anything is, in fact, possible.
Look where we are tonight.
We have gone from where NASA absolutely claimed there was nothing there to where a major motion picture worth 120 clams, million clams, comes out and says, yes, guys, the whole MacGuffin's at Thedonia.
That's the secret of the existence of the human species and all life on Earth.
Sure.
We then have the NASA administrator sitting on CNN and saying, well, We could, you know, maybe do it in 10 years.
Then Time Magazine comes out with his picture in a spacesuit on the cover, which you will see.
We'll put it on the web.
Boy, that'd be a hell of a story.
Richard Hoagland to go to Mars.
You want to come, Art?
No.
No, but I'd, you know, it'd be great to have an interview with you while you're there.
You got it.
Before the air runs out and we hear the final gurgles.
The point here is that we're in changing times.
I mean, you wrote this damn book called The Quickening.
And it's been quickening.
I mean, look at the curve.
Look at the inflection.
It's like you don't know what shoe they're going to drop next.
Yeah, it's true.
It's true.
Well, I imagine as traffic lights up, lightens up a little bit, people will be able to get through and see these photographs.
Fortunately, I got in early and I've still got them on my screen.
But I, you know, I'd have to say, I think That it's interesting, Richard.
I think that what I'm seeing at the entrance is interesting, but I've got to agree with Tom.
Not, not conclusive by any means.
Have you seen the domes yet?
The domes?
The domes.
We haven't talked about the domes.
Where are the domes?
They're north of the Tholus.
The strip that was taken between the cliff up north and the Tholus.
Not quite long enough to get to the cliff.
At the very northern part.
Well, maybe toward the middle part.
I see apex tetrahedron.
That's all in that one mosaic.
There's another set of mosaics that we're uploading.
Keith is uploading it.
Okay.
People will lighten up so you can actually get into our own server.
Yeah.
There'll be more pictures, folks.
Don't be greedy, you know.
Let everybody have a chance here.
And then you'll see there are things that I'm calling domes.
Now, I sent them to Tom earlier this afternoon.
Because Tom's kind of like our anchor, you know.
Sure.
He keeps us grounded.
Yeah.
He's good for you.
Thank you.
They're very geometric.
They're very regular.
They're all the same size.
They're highly polished.
They're glinting in the sun.
They look metallic.
And one of them, the most well-preserved, which is maybe 100 feet across, if not a little bigger, has regular arches around the bottom, like it was standing on legs and you could walk under it.
Yes.
I mean, it's the damnedest things you've ever seen.
And again, everybody has to make their own mind up, but at least you're going to have a chance.
Tom, do you see him the same way?
Well, I... that isn't...
Shall we say my imagination runs in different directions than Richard's does.
I do see some things here in these images and you'll see my interpretations of a few at my website and also one that I've labeled, what is this?
Because I kind of like to get a sense of How much my interpretation of that is universal versus how much everybody sees what's in their own minds.
All right.
Well, I haven't been to your website yet because it's all jammed up, but are they of equal high resolution?
Yes.
Yes, they are.
Well, some of them, I think a couple of the things I show at my site have more detail than the things that Richard's showing.
Some of the shapes there are quite complex.
These are more in the eastern part of the, I'm sorry, the western part of the Cydonia complex as opposed to the strip I chose to focus on, which is over in the east.
That's true.
I'm in the strips that are over near the fort and the tholus primarily.
And of course we haven't discussed what I think we're seeing on the fort, which is so intriguing.
What?
Well, there's detail.
There's definite structural detail and we'll put that up over the next several days and By the time I'm back on next week for the final, you know, go around with you for a while, we'll have some other materials.
If people want to come and see these in person, we're going to be in Phoenix the weekend of the 5th, the famous 552000 alignment.
Oh yes.
We chose that one deliberately.
We're going to, you know, spit in the eyes of the gods.
The phone number, if you want more info, is 602-850-3254.
And we'll return.
Well, I wouldn't be spitting in the eyes of any God if I were you.
Professor, thank you very, very much for being here tonight.
My pleasure, Art.
And Richard, as always.
More to come, folks.
Good night.
Good night, Art.
Good night.
All right.
When I come back, we're going to be naming the successor to this program, as I promised you and as Craig Kitchen, CEO of Premier Radio Networks, promised.
We'll do that when we come out at the top of the hour.
I'm Art Bell.
Well, good evening.
Good morning, if appropriate.
I am Art Bell.
Coming up shortly is Professor Charles T. Tartt, who's internationally known for his psychological work on the nature of consciousness, particularly with respect to altered states of consciousness.
I'll tell you a lot more about him shortly.
But in a moment, I have an announcement coming up, as was promised to you last week.
We're going to announce, uh, many of you I'm sure know I'm retiring from the program, and, uh, just retiring back into private life, period, on the 26th of this month.
It'll be my final show.
And the successor to the program has now been named.
In a few moments, I'm gonna have that name for you.
Alright.
All right, indeed, there may be some of you who do not know, but I announced my retirement, I don't know, a week ago or so.
And my last program is going to be the 26th of April.
26th of April.
And I will then be retired.
Grazing in the grass.
Whatever.
We're going to have a new host.
It is my pleasure tonight to be able to announce the new host's name to you.
After much thought, trial, and tribulation, listening to various people who have applied for the job, kind of like who wants to be a talk show host, I'm proud to announce it's Leonard Palmore Wozinski.
No, it isn't.
Leonard would have liked it though.
No, actually after an exhaustive search and trials that went on for virtually a year, the new talk show host I'm proud to announce is Mike Siegel.
Now I imagine that a lot of you probably imagined that after hearing Mike for the last four nights.
Mike Siegel is a veteran broadcaster.
Many, many, many years under his belt.
With a background in Seattle in the Great American Northwest.
Like my Great American Southwest.
He's been in the Great American Northwest in the Seattle area.
And most recently in Spokane.
And will continue, I believe, to broadcast from the Great American Northwest.
And he was here, secretly, today.
At my home, along with others.
And we had a confab, and he is... I think you're going to find he is going to be a great pleasure for you to listen to.
Now, it was promised to you, and it is going to be true.
This program will continue in the same genre.
He wouldn't have it any other way.
He's a bit of a novice at these kinds of topics, but that's a good thing.
Because when I began, so was I.
And so it will be a great, I think it will be a great exploratory experience for all of you, as well as for Mike, who will be with you learning many new things.
And many of the things that no doubt we have covered on this program, Mike will continue to cover from his unique perspective, and he will add a unique perspective to it.
And because he might not know as much about The Paranormal.
He will be inquisitive.
His nature, to be sure.
That's, I think, a prime... a prime directive for anybody who's going to do this show.
That they have a naturally inquisitive mind.
And if they do, they're gonna do fine.
And that's Mike.
He's articulate.
He has many, many years experience as a broadcaster.
But more important to me, he's interested in these topics.
And though he'll be a novice at many of them, he will explore them From the beginning, which for many of you is going to be very, very good, because a lot of you have come into this midstream, and so you can kind of explore with Mike.
He's a great guy, he's got a great sense of humor, and he's really gung-ho on doing this program.
And so I really am proud to announce that it's going to be Mike Siegel of Great American Northwest fame, The Seattle area, then KGA in Spokane.
I think maybe he can be heard for the rest of the week doing his normal show before jumping on this.
You will hear him for the balance of the month on the four days live.
As a matter of fact, he'll be live for the four days that I am not here.
In other words, I'm here Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.
He'll be here Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday.
And so you will begin to have an opportunity to get Introduced to Mike.
That'll take a while, as it does with anybody new.
You learn about them, they learn about you, and together you have an experience.
And doing this program, I promise Mike, and I promise you, it'll be an experience.
So, Mike Siegel is the heir apparent.
Actually, no, that's before you're named, you're the heir apparent, right?
So, he is the heir named.
The heir obvious.
The guy.
The dude.
He's gonna be the one, folks.
Mike Siegel.
Proud to announce it.
Happy to have him here today.
The guy has a constitution of steel.
I'll tell you that.
He's been doing his program at KGA.
Then he's been doing this program.
Then he's been flying on airplanes and coming down here to have secret meetings with me.
Stuff like that.
So he's obviously got a constitution of steel.
He's gonna need it.
And he's gonna need your help.
So that's what I would say to you.
Um, sit back, listen.
Give the fellow, um, a good, uh, even break.
He's going to need it.
He's got all of you after all.
So the program will continue in the genre in which, uh, you have, uh, uh, come to, uh, enjoy it.
And... there you have it.
Mike Siegel.
Da-da-da-dum-da-dum!
Mike Siegel.
That's the announcement.
Now comes the program.
Charles T. Chart, PhD, doctor, obviously, is internationally known for his psychological work on the nature of consciousness, particularly altered states of consciousness.
As one of the founders of the field of transpersonal psychology, and for his research in parapsychology, his two classic books, Altered States of Consciousness and Transpersonal Psychologies, We're widely used texts that were instrumental in allowing these areas to become part of modern psychology.
He was a radio engineer, man after my own heart.
He is a core faculty member at the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology, Palo Alto, a unique PhD-granting institution that believes that you should educate a person's body, spirit, and emotions, as well as their talking mind.
Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the Davis Campus of the University of California consulted on the original remote viewing research at SRI, where some of his work was important in influencing government policy against the deployment of the multi-billion dollar MX missile system.
Wow!
Now, he's written some other interesting books that we will talk about tonight.
For example, He wrote a book called, On Being Stoned, A Psychological Study of Marijuana Intoxication.
I wonder how he fit that one in there, On Being Stoned.
States of Consciousness, Symposium on Consciousness, Learning to Use Extrasensory Perception, PSI, Scientific Studies of the Psychic Realm, I mean, it just goes on and on.
Mind at Large.
Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers.
Symposium on the Nature of Extrasensory Perception.
Holy mackerel!
Open Mind.
Discriminating Mind.
Reflections on Human Possibilities.
Living the Mindful Life.
It just goes on and on and on and on.
He's also a student of Keto.
I think it's Keto.
In which he holds a black belt.
A black belt of meditation.
That's interesting.
So, in other words, if you don't agree with him, he can beat the hell out of you, I guess.
Psychologically, at least.
Here he is.
Doctor, welcome.
Good evening, Art.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Does that mean you have a black belt in acupuncture?
Is that correct?
Yeah, that's right.
Now, does that mean the meditation side of it, or the physical side, or both?
Oh, they both go together.
So you really could beat the hell out of somebody?
No, that's not my style.
No, I didn't say would you, I said you could.
I could, presumably.
You could.
Alright.
You've never had to do that, though.
And I hope I never will.
You are, instead of being in your hotel, where are you, first of all?
Well, it's very strange.
I'm in an empty ballroom in the basement of the hotel in Tucson.
You're in a hotel in Tucson?
Yep.
I'm at the conference called Tour de Science of Consciousness.
It's the fourth one in the series that the University of Arizona has been sponsoring every other year.
And it's a major breakthrough for scientists to begin to recognize that consciousness is important and to study it.
Now, that'll probably sound crazy to most people.
Science has taken a long time to recognize the consciousness is important, but, you know, scientists are people, too, and they go down crazy dead ends and have their fashions.
So, it's really exciting to be here, but it is strange to be in this large, empty ballroom.
Why are you there?
Well, because I could have done it from my hotel room, but my wife, Judy, said, if you do that, I'll be getting, I'll hear you, but the radio will be delayed and I can't listen to the program.
Get out of here.
I must say, Art, it's a bittersweet experience to be here with you tonight.
It's bittersweet knowing that you're retiring soon.
So there you are in this ballroom with a million chairs in front of you and you're all by yourself.
It's strange I don't even hear an echo.
That's great.
Yeah, but I must say Art, it's a bittersweet experience to be here with you tonight.
It's bittersweet knowing that you're retiring soon.
Okay, I mean I'm going to wish Mike Siegel the best, but he's going to have a hard time
coming up to the standard you've set of inter-curiosity.
I think he's going to do just fine.
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