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Dec. 7, 1999 - Art Bell

02:21:20

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard Hoagland - Mars Conspiracies

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	Ha ha ha ha, lost in space.
	You gotta be old enough to remember that, or if you don't get that one, maybe you'll remember the more sedate version from the recent movie called Lost in Space.
	And Lost in Space is what we're gonna be talking about.
	I think the facts I got earlier sums it up.
	Dear citizens of Earth, thank you for the Mars Lander Happy Meal with exclusive primitive data recorder toy.
	It was delicious!
	But not as good as you Homo sapiens are going to be.
	Please send us another lander with a side of huge wasted taxpayer dollars.
	Signed, the McMartians.
	So I thought Lost in Space would be appropriate.
	Coming up in a moment, my popular demand, Richard C. Hoagland.
	Immortalized by statues at NASA and JPL.
	Actually, truly a one-time advisor to NASA.
	Richard has been a regular on the program for years.
	He won the Angstrom Science Award.
	He knows a lot about this kind of stuff and he's the obvious guy to have on.
	On a day when CNN is showing pictures of a lot of controllers at their consoles with their chins in their hands, Looking kind of dejected.
	The official news.
	Here, CBS, I'll read you this one.
	I get it from any of them.
	Silence from Mars.
	Still no radio signal from Polar Lander.
	The last best opportunity passes early Tuesday.
	In other words, past.
	NASA to review Mars program future missions.
	NASA has all but given up contacting the Mars Polar Lander after another overnight attempt to get the signal failed.
	Early Tuesday morning, scientists tried to contact the lander using an alternate antenna.
	It was their last realistic chance to find it, but the 10-minute window came and went, and nobody phoned home.
	And now they're saying, in bold here, we're at a point where our expectations are remote.
	So, in a moment, I have no idea what Richard C. Hoagland is going to say, and I told him before the show, I don't want to know.
	We'll all find out together in a moment.
	Well, faster, cheaper, more dysfunctional.
	I don't know.
	Richard, welcome to the program.
	Hi, Art.
	Thank you.
	I wish we were doing this under Better circumstances.
	Yeah, so do I. But here we are again.
	I mean, it might be useful for the audience who might not be totally caught up on, you know, they hear the latest failure of this probe, but they probably don't know the history of Mars probes.
	And it might be useful to for you to kind of roll over it a little bit.
	Well, we've had an extraordinary success rate with Mars.
	The Russians have had a lot of problems.
	We've had far more successes than the Russians.
	I know that earlier you were talking to one of the callers that the Russians have had a problem in the past as well, and that's true, but theirs seems much more technologically based than ours.
	Back in the good old days when I was advising Walter Cronkite Running around CBS and traveling around the world on their nickel, I would go to JPL a lot.
	In fact, JPL to me, which is the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, which is NASA's main unmanned mission center in Pasadena, California, kind of became a second home.
	I mean, I knew an awful lot of people there.
	I was allowed free run of an awful lot of the place.
	Even at a very tender age of 18, 19, when I was Curator of Astronomy in Springfield, I was the youngest Curator of astronomy in the country for a while and I got this cockamamie idea in my mind because no one told me I couldn't do it that a small museum in the middle of New England could establish relations with the Space Agency and do things in radio with graphics and cross-country communications that had never been done before and we actually pulled off some pretty amazing radio stuff with an NBC affiliate called TIC in Hartford Connecticut and
	Which was nominated back in 65 for an Emmy.
	That must have been WTIC.
	WTIC.
	You know, the good old Travelers Insurance Company station.
	And I mean, I, you know, wet my whistle and, you know, cut my teeth early on in this.
	And I got a lot of friends in NASA helping at every stage until I began to open doors that you were not supposed to open, such as, was there possibly ancient ruins of stuff left on Mars by either us or somebody else?
	And at that point, an awful lot of those doors, 99% of them closed because we are not supposed to know.
	In that huge, I mean, I've been at this now 20, 30 years.
	I'm beginning to feel a little ancient.
	And I've seen the best and I've seen the worst, and this is the worst, not because we don't know what we're doing technically.
	But because something is wrong politically, somebody does not want us to know.
	Period.
	End of discussion.
	Now, we're gonna discuss for the next four hours details and... I gotta tell you that a lot of people, Richard, who have in the past criticized you, have written to me begging to have you on tonight.
	Begging to have you on, because they're now saying, I give up.
	Richard must have something.
	This is just not mathematically coherent.
	Well, it's also at the wrong end of the curve.
	Remember, we have something in technology called a learning curve.
	You know, we go back to the Wright Brothers.
	When you were learning to fly, You fall out of the air a lot because you don't know about aerodynamics, you don't know about wires, you don't know about center of gravity.
	And in my case, you don't know that umbrellas don't hold a human body up.
	You didn't try that, did you?
	Oh, of course I didn't.
	The Mary Poppins gambit?
	Yeah.
	And I can tell you this, a good umbrella, a really good umbrella, will hold a 13 year old from free fall for about a second and a half.
	Oh my God.
	Before it turns inside out.
	And then of course it's Roadrunner from there on.
	Yeah.
	Oh my gosh.
	Anyway, the Da Vinci route notwithstanding, at the beginning of anything we try to do as human beings, we're always dumb and stupid.
	We don't know what we're doing.
	And a lot of people pay, you know, the ultimate price to give us valuable, priceless information about how to do things.
	I lived, I grew up with the space program.
	I probably, and I want to say this as modestly as I can, But I probably have forgotten more than Miles O'Brien will ever know.
	And I wish I had been at CNN, you know, asked to ask some questions of these guys in these press conferences because all the wrong questions were asked.
	Sure.
	And all the right questions never even got a nod.
	I can't imagine they didn't come to you, that CNN would not come to you.
	With an old friend gone, I would have imagined they'd have come directly to you.
	John Hallman?
	Yes.
	I wish, I sure, John would have known what to ask.
	Maybe, maybe John would have come to you.
	Well, he would have, and that's unfortunately one of those incredible ironies of history that just after we had talked really seriously about Sedonia, and I'd send him data on Pathfinder.
	That's when John had his mysterious accident a couple, three years ago.
	I cannot prove there's any connection, but it haunts me that I sent him and talked to him, perhaps last, of any of
	the people doing what we do, before he was no longer with us.
	And Miles is a nice guy, he's a good reporter, but he doesn't have...
	he doesn't have what we call institutional memory.
	Right.
	You have to have a track record of where you have been compared to where you were going.
	And let me tell you one of the key questions that I wanted to ask, and we'll elaborate as we go through the morning on this.
	Sure.
	But in the early days of the space effort, when we were not good at this stuff, when it was all brand new, when it was vacuum tubes, boys and girls, real vacuum tubes, when the computers had You know, not 64K of memory or 1K of memory.
	They had a quarter of a K of memory.
	That was it.
	I recall.
	We would send unmanned spacecraft in the Mariner series to Mars.
	And I remember vividly one experience late afternoon in La Cañada, which is a little town next to JPL, next to Pasadena.
	We were... I had just come off the Apollo 11 beat down at Rockwell, where a whole bunch of us had spent an extraordinary experience covering Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin's first landing on the moon.
	And then we packed up our stuff and we moved north to the foot of the San Gabriel Mountains to hang out waiting for the flybys of two little unmanned spacecraft, Mariner 6 and Mariner 7, that were going to fly by Mars about a week later.
	We were having lunch, you know, hanging out with, you know, the in crowd, you know, because we all talked to each other and we went to parties and we, you know, drank too much booze and we basically had a lot of fun.
	And we also got the job done.
	So we're hanging out at this little place, this little bar down the street from JPL, and one of the public affairs guys that we were, you know, there with, his beeper went off.
	So in those days, you know, you had to literally, it wasn't alphanumeric, it just went beep, beep, beep, and you had to go find a phone.
	I remember.
	So he went, you know, the good old days.
	So he went to find a phone, and he came back, and his face was like ash, and he says, they've lost it.
	We've got to get the hell out of here.
	We've got to get back.
	So we all funneled the bottle in the car, Raced back around to JPL, up, you know, that little road that goes past the horse farm.
	Screeched to a halt in front of the Von Karma Auditorium and dashed inside.
	And sure enough, Mariner 6, which was trundling in toward Mars, following by about several million miles, Mariner 7, had gone off the air, had just disappeared.
	Poof!
	And what we saw was the professional NASA operation up close and personal.
	Because the first thing they did was send a command in the blind.
	I mean, they knew from tracking where it was in space, heading toward Mars.
	Sure.
	And Mariner 7 was doing fine.
	It was due to fly by, I think, the following day.
	What they did is they sent a command to the spacecraft to switch antennas.
	The first thing they did.
	Now, why do they do that?
	Because spacecraft operate normally, at least they used to, with two kinds of antennas.
	One, a what was called a high gain, where you have basically a satellite dish aiming a very narrow beam toward Earth.
	And if the spacecraft moves off target, if it rolls in some unprogrammed way,
	or if it gets hit by a meteor, which is what they theorized might have happened to this,
	it turned out that it actually was a battery case that burst.
	Well, this will help you, folks.
	If you have the DISH system or DirecTV or RCA, one of those, you know that if you are just a little tiny bit off the
	right place, pointed at the satellite in geosynchronous orbit,
	your picture goes away.
	You get nothing.
	Because the beams are very narrow, and that's how you communicate high-powered information.
	That's right.
	It's even more critical when you're dealing with something that far away.
	Now, in this case, the beam on the antenna on this Polar Lander is supposed to be about five degrees wide, which is pretty wide.
	And they call it not a high-gain antenna, they call it a medium-gain antenna.
	Anyway, these spacecraft, in the primitive good old days when we didn't know what we were doing, carried two sets of antennas and two different radio systems that could be switched You know, back and forth, so that you have backups and redundancy, and you could cross-switch from Transmitter B to Antenna A, and et cetera, et cetera.
	So you had lots of no-single-point failure.
	Sure.
	The first thing they did was to switch it in a command, which took several minutes at the speed of light to get there, from Goldstone, California, I think was the antenna that was pointing in that direction that afternoon.
	And then, about 30 or 40 minutes later, they got confirmation that, lo and behold, the spacecraft was still there.
	The computer, when it got this, remember, primitive computer, by today's standards, incredibly primitive, properly switched from the high gain, which was hopelessly mispointed because the spacecraft was rolling, to what was called an omni-antenna, which broadcasts a much lower power in all directions of space, in a 360 degree bubble.
	So it didn't matter which way the spacecraft was rolling or pointing it, they would get a signal.
	They would get a signal, because they have these huge 100, 200-foot dishes on the ground that can pick up a man's wings, flapping an Alpha Centauri on a bad day during an eclipse.
	The sensitivity of these antennas is extraordinary, because they're liquid-cooled masers, hydrogen-cooled down to absolute zero, and that technology has gotten a tremendous amount of information back to Earth that would not have been otherwise possible.
	So the first thing they did was to go through this routine, which is switch from your narrow antenna to your wide angle.
	And lo and behold, there it was.
	Then they had the leisure of, uh, they could actually tell the computer, you know, okay, now give us some engineering.
	Give us the state of the health of the spacecraft.
	Sure.
	What the voltages are, what the roll rates are, what the little gyros are telling us about pitch and roll and y'all.
	And within a half a day, they had electronically From a hundred and some million miles away, diagnosed what was wrong, had sent corrective commands, had re-established LOCK, which is the Attitude Control, and then switched back to a high-gain antenna, and the mission was even reprogrammed based on data they got from Mariner 7, they'd sent up a new set of picture commands to take close-ups of things they wouldn't... They did all this in less than a week!
	I'm watching this travesty, this fantasy being played out on CNN with this Mars Polar Lander, And I'm saying this just sucks.
	This is nonsense.
	This is not what real people would really be doing to find a real lost spacecraft.
	Because Cook, who was the project manager, said two nights ago, he said, well, we're going to save the best for last.
	We're going to use this wide-angle antenna and try on Tuesday morning to hear it.
	And I'm thinking, well, wait.
	Why not cut to the chase?
	You've got a mission which is in trouble.
	Every moment that goes by, you don't know if other problems will be compounded.
	Of course.
	So why not save the, just plunge ahead with the best first?
	Precisely.
	So that was one of the first telltales I had that something about this was not copacetic.
	Then, and I'm going to get this guy a bottle of champagne.
	This guy deserves, from Enterprise Mission, an absolute best bottle of champagne for the new year that money can buy.
	It was the correspondent for Irish television.
	And I have his name, I've recorded it, I have it on tape, so I know who he is.
	I forget his name at the moment, but he was the senior correspondent for Irish television, sitting there in a cardigan and sweater, you know, doing what reporters used to do, think, and ask real questions.
	And he said in the press conference on Friday afternoon, after they had not heard it in their first, I guess, 45-minute window, And they were basically regaling us with all the things they were going to do leading up to Tuesday.
	Right.
	He said, Mr. Cook, he says, don't get me wrong, but are you in the next pass going to send all those people home and give up again like you did about an hour ago?
	And I went, what?
	He said, I noticed that after about 10 minutes, he says, you seem to give up and you told them all to just go home.
	Yes.
	And it was absolutely true.
	As I recall having a phone conversation with you, because I called you when it happened, and you said it's a damnedest thing.
	They've sent everybody home.
	Now think about this.
	I mean, I have lived these missions.
	When I was with Cronkite and with CBS, I was young and I was enthusiastic and I was young
	all the time.
	I had stars in my eyes and I believed that NASA was mankind's last best hope because
	we've got to diversify and get our eggs out of one basket.
	And I still believe all that.
	I still believe that 90% of NASA people are the same people that I knew and loved when
	I worked with them and covered them and all that.
	But I know that you could not have pried me out of that control room at JPL on Friday
	afternoon with no information as to what was happening with my baby that I spent five years
	building and nursing and sending and praying would get there to a totally new terrain.
	Sure.
	The South Pole of Mars.
	You couldn't have gotten me out of there with a nuclear weapon!
	And we're supposed to believe these people simply got up and walked out because somebody said, OK, lunch!
	Yeah, I...
	I mean, how do you explain that?
	The fix is in, Art!
	Ladies and gentlemen all over the United States, the fix is in!
	And it's such a tiny group, that instead of having to control hundreds and hundreds of people, you only have to control 10 or 15 or 20.
	And the benign interpretation is that those people were ordered off those consoles under pain if you won't have a job if you don't.
	And Cook said that a handful of people, the key people, the ace people stayed on the consoles.
	Well, the people who weren't on those consoles, who were ordered away, they've got to know because of scuttlebutt that this thing is perfectly okay.
	And I saw it at the Academy Awards in those TV shots.
	All these people with their head in their hands to go around for the next 10 years.
	That's right.
	This is pathetic.
	And I've been thinking for the last day or so since, you know, I mean, you called me, I was in midair flying back from Las Vegas.
	And I got messages at various stops along the way.
	I want to talk to you!
	That's right.
	So when I walked in the door, I called you and you said we're going to do this thing tonight.
	By the way, how is Jack Anderson?
	Uh, Jack is alright.
	Uh, he is still in the hospital with complications from what was supposed to be very simple surgery.
	So, um, he's okay, Richard, and I think with luck, next week or the following as he recovers, we'll have him on.
	It might be useful to ask him about this.
	Indeed.
	Uh, we're at the bottom of the hour, so hold it right there.
	Richard C. Hoagland is here and we'll be right back.
	NASA Administrator Dan Golden announced an investigation Tuesday that will
	examine the space agency's entire Mars program and could delay upcoming missions.
	See you next time.
	Scientists, again I'm reading from CBS, presume the spacecraft is on the surface of Mars in a sort of safe mode hibernation.
	And Richard C. Hoagland just said, the fix is in.
	And obviously, Richard, that's a very provocative statement.
	People want to know what you mean.
	Well, what I mean is, I'm going to hit it right on the head.
	There is a conspiracy here.
	And we have been tracking it now for several years.
	I didn't start out, you know, looking in this direction.
	This is the last thing I wanted to find.
	And fortunately, we have excellent documentation.
	We have a paper trail.
	And this was one of the reasons Just by coincidence, I have been asked to come to Las Vegas over this past weekend to speak to the, I guess, the 10th or 11th Preparedness Conference that has been held there.
	Looking, I mean, this conference was looking at everything from Y2K to various other things that might interrupt your power, interrupt your food supply, and I mean, there's some of the things that you and I have talked about and many other of your guests have talked about, and what they wanted me to come over was to basically discuss The impact of the things that we see going on in NASA in terms of the larger societal and public policy decisions that are being made and so we did that and I went to a great deal of effort to create two new presentations
	Both around this trail of evidence leading us to firmly conclude tonight that there is some kind of rogue group operating inside NASA that does not want us to know, anyone to know, what is out there.
	Ranging from what's on Mars, to what's on the Moon, to what's in the Galilean system, you know, the moons of Jupiter, etc.
	And then the following day, on Sunday, we discussed at great length some of the paper trail we now have In terms of what may have happened to Egypt Air 990.
	You know, every time you and I go down this trail, we get attacked.
	Not that I care.
	I've been attacked so many times I'm full of holes.
	Doesn't matter.
	But we get attacked mercilessly.
	There's a reason for that.
	I mean, we're not being attacked for no reason.
	We're being attacked for a reason.
	Now, I might be inclined to say, Richard is reaching conspiracy.
	Oh, come on.
	We've heard this so many times.
	But every time we go down this road, Richard, we get attacked.
	And to me, that means we're touching some nerve somewhere.
	Well, we're definitely touching a hot button.
	And tonight I'm going to lay out some evidence we've never discussed before.
	All right.
	We have new evidence, evidence that is going to be up on the website because of the bizarreness around Mars Polar Lander.
	My plan had been To do the presentations, come back, and then prepare material, upload it to Keith, and have it on the web before we have this conversation.
	We've gotten a bit ahead of ourselves because I don't have this ready tonight to go and tell you to go to the web and look at it, but it will be there in the next week or so.
	All right.
	Well, I'm the one who did that because Jack Anderson is still in the hospital.
	They declared it to be lost today.
	They were giving up.
	It seemed the appropriate time to have you on.
	Well, it's also newsworthy.
	It's time.
	I remember my first experience with Walter during the First missions to the moon, I had prepared this whole careful presentation, you know, on Christmas Eve of 1968.
	And not knowing the vagaries of television, you know, I was prepared very carefully and methodically to over the space of the lunar experience back in 68 to regale the CBS audience with, you know, profiles of what they were going to do in lunar orbit and how the orbit worked and what the terrain was under the spacecraft.
	And instead, over the intercom, as soon as they, you know, got into orbit, I heard this voice bellowing, Where's Hoagland?
	Where's that stuff?
	They wanted it in five minutes, not even completion of the first orbit.
	They wanted everything.
	So television and news is hit it while it's hot, while people are paying attention, because it's a very busy world, and people have a lot of other things, and this will, if we let this die, it will quietly recede into the midst of history, except for one very important difference now.
	For the first time, I am hearing very disturbing noises about shutting down NASA because of this.
	Yeah, I know.
	And unfortunately, I think this is the objective.
	I think this rogue group, who I will hone in specifically with great detail as we go through the evening, I think their plan has been, when they got what they needed from the public taxpayer program, in terms of data on Mars, data on the outer solar system, data on the moon, The objective here is to kill NASA.
	You know, you can't rule it out.
	And if you go to the spacecraft that went down just before this one, the Climate Orbiter, the news has been, I can almost give you a report the way CNN or one of the networks has been doing it, coming on the heels of the embarrassing loss of the Climate Orbiter.
	For the stupidest of reasons.
	Yeah, indeed.
	The entire program is now being questioned faster, cheaper.
	They may end up scrapping the whole thing, which means we don't go to Mars with anything for a long time.
	Exactly.
	Which may be exactly... I mean, I can't rule out what you're saying.
	Well, again, as I try to do, I try to document these outrageous, you know, assertions, and tonight I have some pretty extraordinary and outrageous documentation of the outrageous assertions, and I must tell you that the audience of the Paradise Expo was absolutely bowled over.
	They were dumbfounded with what we have now been able to put together, and we've worked very hard on this.
	I've been working most of the summer, even during my recovery from the heart attack, To put these pieces together, because I frankly think, as I did 10, 15, 20 years ago, that NASA is our last best hope.
	If we do not diversify, if we don't take the lessons from the solar system, if we don't understand the planet we live on as a planet, if we don't put human beings, you know, on Mars and on the Moon and in the rest of the solar system, the things that nature itself has planned for this planet, if we don't Gather enough information to swing the difference, to make a difference, are going to wind up with an awful lot of us being very, very, very sorry with nothing we can do about it.
	Well, Richard, right now they just reported the Arctic ice is 40% thinner than it was two decades ago.
	Now, the New York Times is tonight reporting the North Atlantic current may be changing.
	Now, if all of this happens, Oh, there may be indeed some very dark days ahead for Earth.
	Very dark days.
	And the high leverage of space technology.
	I mean, I've worked with people like Jerry O'Neill and Jerry Gray, who was at one of the basic trade groups of aerospace trade groups.
	I mean, over the years I've done a lot of mainstream things trying to get space industrialization to be realized.
	Well, there's another thing I want to ask you about.
	And nothing has happened on that?
	Well, exactly.
	In other words, Congress gave NASA a mandate a long time ago to begin privatizing space.
	And NASA, with very, very few exceptions, has not fulfilled that mandate at all.
	Not only that, but it has also curtailed and choked off and censored and sat upon all of the various private efforts, some of which I have been involved with, like Jerry Hudson, who tried to build a private rocket ship to basically take payloads into orbit much cheaper than NASA.
	NASA is an 800-pound gorilla.
	It has stifled competition.
	It does not want anybody to play in its sandbox, and yet it isn't playing in its sandbox, at least in a way that we can appreciate, because there is some kind of internal war.
	There's some kind of internal thing going on between the left hand and the right hand, and neither group wants us to know that it exists.
	So the good guys, as I'll call them, they aid and abet the conspiracy.
	They aid and abet the criminal activity because they don't also want us to realize that there is this incredible dissension within the ranks for control of who is going to own space and who's going to own and have access to the information, the real information.
	All right, let us, for the sake of conversation, assume there is a small cabal of people with a very, very different agenda for our space program.
	Well, let me give you one data point on that.
	Sure.
	My friend from Irish television, I say my friend, I've never met him, you know, I would like to shake his hand someday.
	He asked this key critical question in a most mild, genteel, you know, fellow, well-met attitude, right?
	Yes, yes.
	He never got to ask another question during the entire subsequent four days.
	They never called upon him again.
	Yep.
	No, that's... I mean, he's a guy who represents a major foreign network.
	You know, he wasn't, you know, someone you could just kiss off, but they did, because he had embarrassed them.
	He asked the question you weren't supposed to ask, which is, why is something occurring at a human level that simply makes no sense?
	I mean, I have lived with these missions.
	I have sweat blood with them, even though I haven't actually physically worked on them, except as a consultant when I was at Goddard.
	But I understand the passions of people.
	I have felt those passions.
	If all else were level, if all else were even, if it was honest, the idea of sending a robot to the South Pole of Mars, Amid those snow fields of carbon dioxide, and those reddish cliffs, and that banded terrain, and that incredibly sculpted landscape, and all of the things that we could have learned, and the vistas, and the impressive views, and the different kind of sky.
	I mean, it just, it makes your heart sing that we were really exploring, and you're going to tell me that in that 12 minutes of silence, from the time that the spacecraft landed in the atmosphere of Mars, to the time it was supposed to land, Followed by half an hour of waiting for the various systems to come up and the panels to unfold and the radio transmitter queued by the computer to send its first signal.
	You mean to tell me there was any red-blooded American working on that program who could have walked out and gone to lunch?
	No, it's hard to buy.
	Hard to buy.
	Hard to buy.
	I found the previous mission, not even counting all the other ones we've lost, but the orbiter, the climate orbiter.
	I never bought that, Richard.
	You know, I just never was able to buy it.
	An error in metric to feed in inches?
	Again, it's at the end of the curve.
	We've been doing this using conversion between English system, which American industry uses, and metric, which NASA and JPL use, for decades.
	I have a letter which we put on the web that came to me as an email from a Lisa in Denver.
	I want to read it to you because it was so telling.
	All right.
	She says, a few days after the Mars orbiter crashed, I was at a dinner party near Denver and spoke with a man who is deep inside Lockheed Martin and works on the Mars Observer projects and has for years.
	We discussed in great detail the events that led up to that fateful day.
	This is the one that disappeared ten weeks ago now.
	As he described what had happened, he appeared to be distraught and very puzzled.
	He said that everything had been going along perfectly.
	Even some of the complicated maneuvers earlier in the mission had gone on without a hitch.
	As he was explaining the events, I made special note that he was using metric measurement in his description.
	The next day, the official NASA press release was distributed, and the Denver Post reported that Lockheed Martin was being blamed because they had been using imperial measurement, which is the English system, foot, pounds, inches, that kind of thing, and JPL was using metric.
	Why would this man's description be in metric if all along Lockheed Martin was using imperial measurement?
	May I ask a question?
	Yeah.
	With all the various maneuvers and commands they would have sent the spacecraft from the time it left Earth until it prepared to enter Mars orbit, hopefully, wouldn't they have had, wouldn't they have, in other words, if you had two separate systems going on, would you not have had Did the problem crop up long before you were ready to insert into orbit?
	Absolutely.
	And this is one of the things we pointed out in one of our postings on the Enterprise website.
	Really?
	Oh yeah.
	I mean, we've been looking at this, and we actually, the conversion between metric and imperial is something like two and a half to one.
	So the error would have gotten bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, and the JPL analysis claimed that they saw a divergence at the end, but decided to dismiss it.
	And not risk a fifth mid-course correction.
	And that's why they lost it.
	Let me finish what Lisa says here.
	Something is very fishy.
	I had never been suspicious before about the Mars missions, but after seeing the complete despair and exasperation of this poor man, I am now convinced that a major cover-up is in the works.
	I don't want to reveal my friend's identity because I believe he may fear for his job I can say, however, that he would certainly be in a position to know.
	And then she just signs it, Lisa, in Denver.
	Yeah.
	Now, I've got another one that came in from a Canadian radio station this morning to Mike Beres' site, to the LunarAnomalies.com.
	Right.
	And let's see, we've got, what, eight minutes here?
	Well, not quite, but enough time.
	Go ahead.
	A bit of interesting trivia, this emailer says.
	While listening to the radio on my way to work this morning, the morning news came on.
	This was Tuesday morning.
	And during the news, the subject of the failed Mars polar lander came up.
	During this conversation, they also mentioned the failed Mars Global Orbiter and went on further to say that yesterday on the internet, they, the two DJs having this discussion, had come across a story about the orbiter.
	And the fact that one day before the orbiter was due to reach Mars, staff at NASA had noticed two people uploading new telemetry data to the orbiter.
	Security was called and the two men were checked out.
	Their IDs were verified and apparently they did check out at the time.
	However, according to this story, about a month later, they were investigated again And found to have never worked at NASA or JPL.
	What?
	This story aired this morning in Vancouver, British Columbia by radio station CFOX 99.3 FM on the dial.
	The morning DJs are Larry and Willie.
	They have a website at cfox.com.
	They talked about this at 7am during the height of rush hour and again at 9am.
	And this, completely separate from what I was going to talk about tonight, is the methodology of how you hijack A space program.
	Like Mars Observer, many, many years ago, which also failed to reappear after its mid-course correction, did not call home.
	The simplest way you keep the honest guys from knowing their spacecraft is alive and well and sending data to somebody is you reprogram the computer so it doesn't answer the wrong area code.
	And they can send their commands and listen in the dark till doomsday.
	And they'll never hear a thing, because this spacecraft, if it's alive, if it wasn't just killed, is transmitting on another frequency that we, of course, are not supposed to hear.
	And the honest guys are the ones sitting around there at JPL with their hat and their head in their hands, and the dishonest guys are the ones who told them all to go to lunch because they already know that the fix is in and the game has been rigged, etc., etc.
	The question is, how do we stop this?
	This is criminal.
	Because it isn't just about money.
	This is not about $165 million or a $125 million probe.
	This is hijacking the future and the past.
	Alright, I think, Richard, the next question we should tackle is, let us, for the sake of our discussion tonight, assume that what you're suggesting is so.
	That there is this group, that they have done these things, that this is simply the latest outrage.
	The obvious question is, Why?
	Why would a small, elite group of people want to, in effect, hijack missions?
	And what are they hiding?
	I mean, just the obvious questions, the ones that all Americans would ask.
	What is it that's on Mars that they don't want us to know about or see?
	Well, based on 15 years of work, you know, looking at Cydonia and with Enterprise and all the various colleagues that have been participating in this investigation, I can say flatly that they don't want us to know that there are the remains of an ancient civilization covering Mars that was somehow connected with us as part of our own history and that they intend to use in the not-too-distant future for their own objectives, the devil and the rest of us, to be damned.
	I know what NASA would say.
	But it's not NASA we're talking about.
	I know what a spokesperson would say, so let me give you their spiel.
	They would say, how ridiculous.
	If something that amazing were true about Mars, we would be clamoring to get the information to you so our budget would be increased.
	So that we could send more missions, if not a manned mission, to Mars.
	We could leverage all kinds of money from Congress and the American people with that kind of info.
	So hold your answer, Richard.
	We'll come back and address that after the break.
	I'm Art Bell.
	And this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Could what Richard says be so?
	And if so, why?
	Why wouldn't they want us to know?
	Alright, once again, back to Richard C. Hoagland on the loss of the latest Mars probe.
	We have lost so many.
	Richard, that's what I want to ask.
	In other words, assuming the first part of our discussion tonight to be fact, for the sake of this conversation, Then, the obvious question is, if there was a civilization on Mars that had some connection to us, why would they not want us to know this?
	Why would this be held in secret, particularly if in some way it bore on our own future?
	Well, the simplest answer, and I'm going to give you a very detailed answer, because it's an exclusive question, and we now really, for the first time, we've got real data.
	We can really answer this question.
	The simplest answer is that knowledge is power.
	And this is the ultimate knowledge of who we are, what we're all doing in this place, where we came from, etc.
	And that knowledge is not meant for anybody but a few elite insiders, self-chosen, self-proclaimed.
	And they would die, or make others die, before they would allow this knowledge to be widely and freely promulgated.
	Because of the enormous set of implications that come with that knowledge.
	Ranging from biblical studies, to economics, to technology, to racial aspects, to, you know, who has a right to be here?
	Who's the interloper?
	I mean, there are all kinds of implications of us not being the first on this planet and tracing, at least some of us, our heritage to another planet, namely Mars.
	Now, let me get to the actual data, because that's speculative.
	That's in the realm of what might be valuable.
	Sure.
	In all the years that I've been doing this, which is more than I really want to count, we only could approach this theoretically.
	In other words, there were the, what I call, gold carders.
	You know, they said, look, this is the equivalent of a gold card for NASA.
	You take the extraterrestrial life coin, or card, and you play it on Capitol Hill, And you get a blank check for anything NASA ever wants to do forever and ever and ever more.
	Period.
	End of discussion.
	Hoagland and colleagues, you're all crazy because if that was true, NASA would be up there beating on the door, showing the photographs.
	That's right.
	Going off to office and getting their gold chip, you know, ticket punched.
	Right.
	That only worked as an argument up until 1996, the summer of 1996.
	And what happened in that year?
	That was the year That NASA announced the rock.
	The meteorite.
	Oh, the meteorite, yes.
	Life.
	And look at what did not happen around the gold card.
	What I found remarkable was that pre-dawn morning, when there were even just rumors that these guys at NASA Johnson had submitted a paper to Science Magazine, I got calls from Fox, I got calls from CNN, I got calls from the BBC, and I wound up being a very busy boy that day, including NBC, until like midnight.
	And I was on with the players, the creme de la creme.
	I was on Richard Berenson, I was on with one of the co-discoverers of The Rock, you know, I was on Talkback Live.
	I mean, I was on for that 12-hour period non-stop in equal footing with the rest of the discussion.
	And what I found extraordinary was how limited and narrowly held the discussion was
	in terms of what it might mean if there was life in a rock that had come from Mars.
	You follow?
	I do.
	Why don't you roll over some of it?
	In other words, they discovered, they said, microbial life.
	Sixty million years ago, a meteor hit Mars.
	It chipped this thing off.
	It had been blasted into space.
	It had sailed around the solar system until around 13,000 years ago.
	It had crashed on the ice fields of the Antarctic.
	And back in 1984, where they got the number in the name ALH84001, it was picked up by a NASA team that goes down there periodically and scavenges for meteorites.
	and was brought back to Johnson, to the Johnson's meeting.
	There is now a great controversy about it, by the way.
	Where do you stand on that?
	Are you convinced that rock, in fact, was from Mars?
	No, no, I think that Tom Van Flander is correct.
	I think these things that they think are from Mars are actually from the exploded planet
	that blew up that Mars used to orbit.
	That's a whole other discussion.
	Let's assume for the sake of argument it's from Mars.
	Alright.
	Let's assume for the sake of argument that the stuff we see on the electron microscope photos, which by the way were leaked to me weeks before, and I didn't understand what the leak was because the leakers were so incredibly obtuse and arcane.
	That whole story is on the Enterprise website, including how we were kind of asleep at the switch, because we didn't have any inkling this was coming.
	Ah, the President got involved.
	Remember his Rose Garden speech about invigorating, you know, NASA and, you know, putting real pedal to the metal in terms of search for life?
	Oh, yes.
	Remember the conference at the White House of, um... Vividly.
	...of, uh, biblical scholars and theologians and all that?
	Yes, oh, vividly, yes, sir, of course.
	But, where the pedal meets the, you know, the metal, or where the rubber meets the road, we had a bizarre thing happen.
	Instead of using the occasion to open the door and go to the hill and get a lot of money to go and do neat stuff, Dan Golden and others simply said, oh, but this doesn't mean there's life there now or there ever was anything more interesting or it evolved into anything.
	It's just a little bunch of guys in a rock and maybe we can go and find some fossils.
	Well, who the hell gets interested in finding fossils?
	Unless you're a paleontologist.
	And what was really interesting is that JPL, the center that would stand to make the money, and would stand to get the missions and the robots to go and look for more fossils, and would obviously be in the queue to send unmanned missions to bring samples back to Earth, They started doing papers and studies and all that saying that the guys from Johnson were out to lunch and there was no stuff in the rock.
	There were no little living or one-time living beings fossilized now.
	And in fact, the whole thing had been a big mistake.
	So what we saw, instead of the gold card played, we saw everything being done in an effort to stamp out burning ducks.
	To stamp out enthusiasm, to stamp out speculation, to stamp out the implications Basically, it was so counterintuitive that I could only say, well, well, well.
	Because the only thing that rationally explains it, is you got an honest group that really believe the mantra, and then you got this dishonest group who are in a position to play their power cards, and they'll do everything to turn off interest in what's out there, because they dare not let us know that it's a lot bigger and more interesting than a microbe in a rock.
	Well, Richard.
	If Mars had water, and they all seem to agree it did, if Mars had an atmosphere at one time, and everybody seems to agree it did, and all the rest of that, and Mars had microbial life, at least, then is there not a pretty decent chance that over billions of years Mars had intelligent life.
	I mean, is that such a far reach?
	No, it's not.
	And that's why I... You remember how I said that the Irish guy never got asked to ask another question?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Actually, that's not true.
	I had someone call me in the break and tell me that he did ask a couple more, but they were nothing of the caliber of that first one.
	I was on Talkback Live, and I went toe-to-toe with Baronson and some of the other NASA guys, and I held up the face on Mars.
	Much to the absolute chagrin and horror of Susan Rook.
	I'm sure.
	You know, who Rook did it by.
	I mean, I said to myself, why did they invite me?
	They know I've been leading this investigation, looking at these things that are designed by intelligence, perchance.
	But when I held it up and started talking about it, it was like inviting a skunk to the wedding.
	Well... I mean, they were not very happy campers.
	Richard, you know what was really telling to me, after all the face on Mars, brouhaha, it was when they began to release the pictures of the happy face.
	And all that kind of crap.
	I said to myself, boy, there's some people with real attitudes at JPL, or Malin, or whoever did it.
	They've really got an attitude, and it's like they're snubbing this whole thing.
	I kind of internalized that, and I went, man, there's probably something to this.
	Otherwise, why are they doing that?
	Well, again, it's your back to, if it didn't count, if it was trivial, if it was not interesting, if it was wrong, why would they bother?
	Yeah.
	The disproportionate response.
	I have a little thing that just came in that I'll read right from the computer here.
	Someone sent me this little thing which says, there is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument.
	And which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance.
	That principle is contempt.
	Prior to investigation.
	Right.
	And that's what we've seen and what McDaniel documented before he turned weird for 20 years.
	We've seen contempt of the idea of life on Mars prior to any investigation.
	And when some of NASA's own claim to have found, you know, not ruins and not Martians or whatever, but little tiny microscopic guys who couldn't threaten us because they can't hold ray guns.
	What did the rest of NASA do?
	They ate them for lunch!
	Yeah.
	So, the gold card is a specious argument.
	The fix is in.
	If it had been honest, this would have been the opening gambit to more money, more probes, building toward a manned mission.
	You start small, you say, yo, we gotta do the science, but you don't try to build these things in some Radio Shack garage.
	You put the proper teams on, you put the proper amount of money, and you actually go and you look!
	But I've still got to ask you to be somewhat speculative with regard to motive.
	Is it religion?
	Is it our government, which knows that there's information that would be revealed that would be too much for the public to assimilate?
	In other words, why hold this information Uh, from the public.
	Why?
	What's your best guess?
	Well, alright, let me develop this in the next half hour, but let me tease now what I think is going on.
	I think it's all of the above.
	I think it's religion.
	Because I think what's driving the system here, driving the train, is a cult.
	A Mars cult.
	A, we are not from...
	...
	Is it our government which knows
	that there's information that would be revealed that would be too much for the public
	to assimilate?
	In other words, why hold this information from the public?
	Why?
	What's your best guess?
	Well, alright, let me develop this in the next half hour, but let me tease now what I think is going on.
	I think it's all of the above.
	I think it's religion.
	Because I think what's driving the system here, driving the train, is a cult.
	A Mars cult.
	A we-are-not-from-Earth kind of cult that harkens back to this ancient Egyptian pattern we have talked about over and over again.
	Oh yes.
	And which now we have new, extraordinary evidence is in fact real.
	And I'll get into that in the next half hour.
	This is Marianne Weaver's startling confirmation.
	Of our contentiousness 96, that there is this ancient religious agenda by some inside the Space Agency.
	There is a collusion between those folks and an equally daft and crazy group that are located at JPL.
	In fact, we're part of the founding of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, who were disciples of a guy who'd self-styled himself as the most evil man in the world, Alistair Crowley.
	JPL was founded by an engineer named Jack Parsons, who was the heir apparent to Crowley.
	And we'll get into some of that history, which most people, I'll bet 99% of the people listening to me now are looking at the radio and saying, huh?
	I'm sure they are.
	I can tell you this, in the years that you and I have been walking down this trail, I, without any question whatsoever, You know what I mean.
	made to stop you cold, there were attempts made to get me off the air, there were attempts
	made to discredit you, to discredit me and others who have been working on this and talking
	about it. Very, very serious attempts. You know what I mean.
	Yes, I do. And that doesn't come from nothing. Somewhere there is a power orchestrating this, putting it together
	and aiming it at us every time we get on to this. And I just don't give a damn. I won't
	let go. And obviously you're not going to either.
	No, we're still here and we're winning.
	In a weird way, Art, and everybody listening tonight, we are winning.
	What we need to do now is to take what we know and make it effective politically.
	There has to be a way to translate our anger and our ire at being led down this primrose path one too many times, of being lied to, of having dumb, stupid reporters asking dumb, stupid questions And ignoring the obvious, like, why don't you switch antennas now?
	Why do you wait four days?
	Why let that happen?
	Why send people home?
	Were there really two guys programming stuff to one of the Mars spacecraft who had nothing to do with NASA?
	See, what I would like is for the honest folks who are listening, and we know, Art, that the honest people in NASA who would not be caught dead appearing with me anywhere, do listen.
	I know they do, yeah.
	Alright, what I need now is for the honest people to make a very important decision tonight.
	I love what NASA stands for.
	The real NASA.
	The NASA that you go to work every single morning and would pay them to let you work there and do what you do as the last best hope of mankind.
	What I need is for a few brave people to send Art or send me or send Mike Farah either email or fax Information that will allow us to catch the guilty here to finally get enough evidence together for a critical mass to take to a congressional investigation or take to some of the presidential candidates who right now... Hold it right there.
	Hold it right there. Hold it right there. We'll be right back.
	By the way, our new affiliate in Las Vegas, KXNT 840 on the AM dial is very, very good
	down the LA corridor.
	In other words, as you head toward Los Angeles from Las Vegas, and or the other way around, you'll find 840 a very pleasurable listening opportunity.
	It fills in a lot of holes for some people who have had a tough opportunity in that area.
	So welcome again, 840 KXNT Las Vegas, just over the hill from me.
	Richard, welcome back.
	Hi there.
	All right.
	I want to get to that question, but I know you've got a little before it.
	I want to get some detail on it because I really do want to understand.
	I think people, before they can buy this in their own minds, they need to understand why this would be kept from us and what benefit it would be to those who kept it from us.
	Well, it's certainly not in the benefit of NASA as a whole.
	And it's not to the benefit of all those honest folks who work for NASA.
	No, and there were probably a lot of people listening this morning really pissed off.
	I mean... I have been saying this for years, that this is not NASA.
	This is not official policy.
	This is a manipulation of that policy by a small group who managed to infiltrate the agency, and other government agencies if the truth were known, and who have their own agenda, their own goals, their own timetable, their own objectives, And who believe.
	I mean, these people actually believe they are the only heir apparent, the rightful descendants of the ones who came from Mars, and that's why they are doing, among other things, what they're doing.
	Alright.
	This is part of their belief system.
	Now, everybody has to think like an FBI profiler.
	Everybody's seen, you know, the NBC TV show, The Profiler, and they saw Silence of the Lambs, and they've seen, you know, X-Files, and they've seen a lot of these shows now.
	That demonstrate how you don't have to be the criminal to get inside the mind of the criminal to figure out how he or she or they think and what they will do in a certain set of circumstances.
	That's what we have had to do.
	I mean, a lot of people have been criticizing us at Enterprise for the last several years because they think we've kind of lost our way.
	That we wandered off the reservation and we used to do good science and now we're doing something that they frankly don't understand.
	And I've been told by many people, many close friends and colleagues, we just don't want you to go there.
	We don't want to know whatever's at the end of that road.
	Yeah, I know.
	And the fact is, you've got to.
	At the moment, I realized that we were being snookered.
	And that came from Stan McDaniel's exquisite, eloquent, and painstaking report, put together over a couple of years with input from us and a lot of other people.
	And the fact that NASA documentedly did not play honest or fair with Cydonia from the get-go, and up until he had a change of heart or change of life or whatever, he felt strongly that there was malfeasance in high office and told the Mars Observer Program scientist, Bevan French, this.
	Less than 24 hours before they lost that spacecraft back in 93, and felt this was a telling blow for freedom and democracy and openness.
	Up until that point, I thought, like everybody else, that we could probably explain the missing opportunity of seizing the Sedonia card, of playing the NASA gold card, as the standard problem of The science is so new that most people can't bring themselves to really admit that the data is real.
	Well, obviously if what you believe and you're telling us this morning is true, then the way they handled Cydonia makes all the sense in the world.
	Of course!
	Because it wasn't dumbness, it wasn't stupidity, it wasn't ignorance, it wasn't honest scientists grappling with the incomparable and trying to fight against their own unwillingness to believe.
	You know, remember it was Sagan who coined this rather bizarre rule of thumb that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
	Yes.
	Well, what that does is put you behind the eight ball at the beginning of the race, because you define science in terms of ordinary claims versus extraordinary claims.
	Well, how about extraordinary failures demand extraordinary investigations?
	It should.
	It should.
	But if I make a claim and you say, oh, wait a minute, that's an extraordinary claim, Hoagland, you must come at me now with extraordinary evidence.
	What you have done is inject into a supposedly objective scientific discussion, a qualitative emotional
	psychological hurdle that I can never climb over. Because every time I present evidence you can say,
	and all you have to do is read the Enterprise Mission Conference to see there's a lot of
	folks over there that are playing by these weird daffy rules.
	Oh, but your evidence is not extraordinary enough.
	Well, they keep moving the goalposts.
	They keep moving the goalposts and it is designed that way.
	It is a specious argument.
	Carl should have been ashamed of himself.
	Because what we really ought to be doing is looking at all evidence as equal.
	Well, there's some evidence that toward the end Carl was, I don't want to say ashamed of himself, but beginning to modify his public statements.
	In the last book, Demon Haunted World, he actually came out in favor of looking at Cydonia.
	Of subjecting it to the ordinary scientific criteria.
	That's right.
	That every other, you know, high value, and I'll use that as opposed to extraordinary claim, should be subjected to.
	And the reason we got into this little cul-de-sac is because there are certain scientific issues that everybody knows in their bones.
	If they're real, they will change everything.
	It is impossible to really divest the emotion from the objective science.
	If I find one more atom in a beach of a thousand trillion grains of sand, it's like, who cares?
	But if I find an E.T.
	civilization coming to Earth to invade and eliminate the human race, That's kind of different.
	That's kind of different, yes.
	So obviously there's an emotional, subjective, psychological, qualitative component and it
	can never be divorced.
	The problem is that science is supposed to try to eliminate this uneven playing field.
	It's supposed to at least go through the pretense that we subject all claims to the same standard.
	Well, in fact, over the last 25 or 30 years, the Cydonia claim, the discovery by an official NASA mission to Mars, of evidence that looks like life, as part of the search for life, which is what Viking was about, has been met not with any objective, rational, public test of that hypothesis, But has been met with ridicule, with character assassination, with all kinds of things beyond the realm of possibility, with the hiding of data, with the lying about evidence, with misleading letters going to Congress, and all of this is not Hoagland claiming it, this is all in Stan McDaniel's epic work on the investigation of Cydonia that did not take place for a quarter of a century, for one human generation.
	Then we get to the point where we're going to send a mission back.
	The first mission in 20-some years called Mars Observer.
	And I am in a debate on Good Morning America with the program scientist, Bevan French.
	And during that whole debate, all that we asked for is, look, test the theory, test the hypothesis.
	Simply take new pictures and give them to us live so we won't be snookered.
	Right.
	And we'll all make our own decisions.
	And we walked out of the studio, obviously with ABC, you know, in our corner, because the host at one point said, look, Dr. French, why don't you just do what these guys want?
	If they're all crazy, we'll all go home.
	Yeah.
	And we no sooner walked out of that studio than they then announced that they had lost the whole spacecraft.
	Yeah, I remember.
	Not only lost it a few minutes before, but 14 hours before.
	And I stood up three days later at the National Press Club, and I said, there is a rogue group Inside NASA, a cancer on NASA.
	Parodying, you know, good old John Dean, talking about the Nixon presidency.
	Right.
	And this cancer, we now know who it is, we know where it came from, and we know what has to be done to eliminate it, provided anybody really cares.
	Because ultimately, you know, you get the government you deserve.
	If people don't give a damn about this tonight, if this is just listening to you and me on the radio because they have nothing better to do at quarter to mountain time, then it's not going to change and their space program is gone and we will sit here until whatever's going to happen happens and the favorite tiny few, the elite, who have maneuvered us into this position through keeping us in ignorance, they will have won.
	People care, Richard.
	They just don't know what to do.
	Well, the folks in Seattle knew what to do.
	All right?
	The folks in Seattle took this faceless, nameless bureaucracy, the WTO, and they actually fought it to a standstill.
	It ended in disaster.
	It's because they made political liaisons with all kinds of strange bedfellows.
	Yep.
	I mean, you had Long Sherman out there with Tom Hayden, and you had young hippies out there with old hippies.
	And you had people protesting in the neatest and best American tradition, with their bodies in the streets, peacefully.
	Telling the world on television that this is too important any longer to sit still for.
	Now, am I calling for people to get out on the streets on this?
	No.
	You know what that affects?
	That affects their pocketbook.
	We're talking about pocketbook issues here.
	Input to an otherwise bottom-line oriented trade organization that isn't going to get two tickered dams.
	You're telling me that people only care about their pocketbooks and I'm telling you that's not true.
	I'm telling you they primarily care about it.
	They care about that, but they also care about the intangible.
	Well, there's a lot of people listening to this program who care very much about what you're saying.
	Exactly.
	But they don't know what to do.
	Well, we are 20 million in a country, in a nation of 260 million.
	The last time I looked at numbers like that, that's about, what, 10%?
	Yep.
	It only takes 2% to create a revolution anywhere, anytime.
	I know.
	So all we need is 2% of that 10%.
	We're going to follow what we're going to recommend we do this morning.
	Dan Golden and Bill Clinton and the House and the Senate and the presidential candidates, particularly, who are vying for our votes and our attention a year from now as to who's going to lead this country in the new millennium.
	Well, believe me, if we can't have honest data coming from space about what's really out there, If we have been snookered and seduced and bought and paid for behind our back because we didn't really want to know who was taking from the till, then we deserve what's going to happen.
	But I happen to believe we're made of sterner stuff.
	I happen to believe that you're right.
	People would like to do something, they just don't know what to do.
	That's right.
	So tonight, after we go through some evidence, we're going to lay out some things that we might do.
	Mainly, we need to create a big, big discussion around this in the mainstream media.
	Miles O'Brien and colleagues have to realize that they too have been snookered.
	That this does not make sense.
	You do not tell people to go home after five years before you find out whether your baby has arrived.
	I mean, that's like telling, you know, can you imagine a guy and a gal arrive at the hospital and she's about to have a baby?
	And they come out in the waiting room and they say, well, Mr. So-and-so, you know, she's doing fine and we don't know anything yet, but you can go home.
	Would he go?
	No.
	Of course not!
	Of course not.
	Let's look at this from a human perspective.
	That telling question from our friend at Irish television was the answer to what we've all been asking for the last week.
	The fix is in!
	And somebody at JPL knows it and is part of it, and a lot of other people know it and are not part of it, but they don't know what to do either.
	It's like, what was it, Edmund Burke who said, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
	All right, let me pick up on exactly that point.
	You and I both know there are a lot of good people at NASA.
	You've said it again and again and again.
	Do you think, Richard, that a lot of these good people that we're talking about know that something is rotten in Denmark or Pasadena or Houston or wherever?
	Do you think they suspect that something is going on?
	Do you think they have come to the point where even the good people at NASA are beginning to wonder?
	Yes.
	But I also think they haven't a clue as to where it came from, where it started, who's in on it, what's its purpose.
	They are as flummoxed as everybody else because they have not done their homework.
	They have been... Remember what, I think it was Felix Frankfurter said when he was brought a report about the Holocaust in Europe?
	Yes.
	He said, I cannot believe what I am hearing.
	It's that outrageous.
	It's that over the top.
	It's that beyond the edge of the paper.
	So tonight, I think finally we're seeing a lot of people.
	Inside NASA, looking around and saying, what the hell is going on?
	But they don't know where to start to unravel what it is, so hopefully they will take... Alright, let us suppose that there are some of those people out there and they would like to be in touch with you, no doubt, anonymously.
	They've got jobs and families to be concerned about, but they want to be in touch with you.
	How do they get in touch with you?
	Okay, there are two ways.
	Primarily two ways.
	One is they can fax Enterprise directly, which is area code 505.
	505-571-0820.
	505.
	771.
	0820.
	I just replaced the cartridge, so we got a lot of fax time tonight.
	Okay, 505-771-0820. Got it.
	Now, if they're really lazy, or they want to be super anonymous and go through 15 different ISPs and repeaters
	and bounce off 9 satellites so that no one ever...
	Well, we can do that now.
	Yeah, I know.
	That's the advantage of the Internet.
	We can actually get information to us without the paper trail of who sent it if they don't want to know.
	I know.
	You can be a dog on the Internet.
	You got it.
	They can email our kind of counter Identity, which is lunaranomalies.com, Mike Barra's website, my colleague and friend from Boeing, at www.lunaranomalies.com.
	If you go there, you will see an email address.
	Send email.
	It is forwarded to me after appropriate filtering so I don't get any of the noise, because there's no way that with our limited resources we could go through what you have to go through, Art, alright?
	So I have deliberately not had a public email for Enterprise because we would never get anything done.
	And a lot of this requires a lot of time and research and effort and even paying people.
	There's the fax machine.
	Yep.
	And paying people to go through the National Archives.
	So in the next half hour, I'm going to detail some of the things I laid out at the Preparedness Conference in terms of what we found in the National Archives as to who is doing what to us in terms of hijacking the NASA program and what their agenda is, where it came from, and what we can do about it to change it.
	Because unless you can change it, it's pointless to even have the discussion.
	Well, uh, I suppose so, and unless you can tell me what you think the endgame is.
	In other words, if we don't change anything, then what is the endgame for those who are doing what you think they're doing?
	The endgame is that most of us are going to be sitting here with rather terrible things happening, while a few think they're going to get away.
	That's what it is.
	It has to do with Earth change.
	It has to do with... See, that's where I have a problem.
	The Arctic ice is melting.
	If the North Atlantic current is beginning to change, which would be incredibly awful, if the ice shelves in the Antarctic are slipping away, if the ozone is thinning even more, and it is, by the way, they've had a recent measurement showing that over Europe, for example, it is really thinning right now, there's a lot of bad environmental signs.
	I mean, we're all on the same ship here, partner.
	Unless they plan not to be on this ship.
	Unless they are planning to go home.
	As they perceive home.
	Which is Mars.
	I mean, this is very heavy stuff and I don't think we can probably do it justice without all the documentation I intend to put on the web.
	Yes.
	With the proper links and the proper... I mean, we have spent a fortune It's sending researchers into the National Archives looking for things and connecting dots that most people don't know even how to begin looking for.
	But Richard, if we're murdering the space program, or the failures are murdering the space program, we can't get a robot to Mars, much less get a man, or men, or many men and women to Mars.
	But you're presuming that that's the only space program in town.
	Remember, we're also discussing what we have seen on the shuttle videos.
	Which is that somebody upstairs is operating extraordinary electrogravitic spacecraft, and they're probably from here.
	They're probably part of the same rogue group.
	And the NASA we see is window dressing.
	It's magician stuff.
	It's left-hand, right-hand stuff.
	And before everybody says, oh my God, we're spending billions, you know, but it's not their money, it's our money.
	They don't care that it's spending billions.
	Remember, the name of the game here, if we're correct, if we extrapolate this curve far enough, is the survival of a few at the expense of the many.
	And those few happen to have the power and the knowledge that we don't tonight.
	We have bits and pieces.
	We also outnumber them.
	And part of the reason for secrecy is if it became known how few they are and how many we are, the game would be over.
	That's why we need the honest folks in NASA who are the only ones, really, who can make a short-term difference.
	If those folks really understand what's at stake, that they have to clean house, they have to come forward, they have to provide us, if not with names, at least with clues and directions to look, then, you know, the whole game really is over.
	All right.
	Richard, hold it right there.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	I would like to remind people I also have a fax number.
	If you are a NASA person, you would like to get on the air with Richard, pro or con, uh, fax me, send me a number, tell me who you are, and maybe I'll call you.
	That number is 1, area code 775-727-8499.
	Area code 775-727-8499.
	Let me give that to you again.
	Area code 775-727-8499.
	Or of course you can directly fax Richard C. Hoagland at area code...
	That's 5-0-5-7-7-1-0-8-2-0.
	We'll be right back.
	Good morning.
	Richard C. Hoagland is here and we are talking about the latest loss.
	771-0820. We'll be right back.
	Good morning, Richard C. Hoagland is here and we are talking about the latest loss, very
	serious loss by NASA.
	Of the Mars Polar Lander.
	It's gone.
	Even NASA is now saying, uh, it's not gonna phone home.
	They don't expect to hear from it.
	They're giving up.
	So, unless we get a sudden SOS from space, rather unlikely right now, we've got to contemplate what all of this means.
	But it may be a bit darker than what you thought Got a couple of interesting faxes here
	Art on Sunday's Dreamland, Whitley Streber, said to us there is a rumor, and he stressed it was only a rumor, that we've received a contact signal from SETI.
	Whitley told us the star this was coming from, he named it.
	The signal was in the process of being confirmed.
	Please ask Richard.
	Well, I will, but of course I know, I know Seth Shostak, of course, is a friend and He's pretty well convinced me that he would get me word if such a thing were occurring.
	Right, Seth?
	So we'll ask Richard, but those are consistently on the internet.
	Those rumors are constantly going around.
	But here's the one that I really want to lay on Richard.
	Dear Art, It is evident that Richard believes in the super-secret inside cabal at NASA.
	However, Richard must be aware that the European Space Agency, Japan, United Kingdom, Russia, and also China, who yesterday placed their first astronaut in space, have all announced space exploration mission to Mars within the next number of years.
	Please ask Richard how this insider NASA cabal could possibly control all of these governments.
	In the corresponding missions, space explorations to Mars can hide any information from the global community.
	Pretty good question, Richard.
	Yeah, it is unless you understand how these things work.
	And this takes me back where I wanted to go, which is the history of this and why we know we're dealing with factual data and a factual evidentiary trail and not just speculation.
	The modern space programs of all nations trace themselves back to exactly where we are, okay?
	Can we do anything about that ringing in the background?
	That's the fax machine.
	There's no way to shut off the ringer?
	Not... Not if... Well, let me turn it to this, alright?
	Let me, um... That's a good idea, alright?
	It is possible.
	Yep, and I can do that.
	Okay, good.
	Anyway, all the space programs of the world began Relatively recently, within the last 50-60 years, in Germany.
	Alright?
	They began in the minds of people, theoretically, in England, the British Interplanetary Society, with people like Arthur Clarke and others, you know, at the helm.
	And then in Germany they began with people like Werner Von Braun and others.
	And here they began with people like Robert Goddard.
	And of all those efforts, of the English effort and the American effort, the guys that really made it work, that created real rockets and interplanetary spacecraft, were in Germany.
	And they were funded by a guy named Hitler.
	And Heinrich Himmler, who got very interested toward the end of the war in taking over from the German army.
	The actual cadre of specialists that von Braun and others have had assembled toward the end of the war.
	At the end of the war, we are told by history books, von Braun led a group of about 115, 120 of these brilliant Nazi engineers, rocket scientists, literally, and others, to a rendezvous with the American forces.
	And an official operation called Operation Paperclip was set up to bring this talent, this engineering, this gem of wisdom from Germany to the United States to put it to use in service to the free world.
	To basically give us rockets and spacecraft and ballistic missiles and All of that in competition with our tribals on this planet, which was the Soviet Union.
	Right.
	We also were told that a lesser group was captured by the Russians of the same, you know, rocket scientists, not, you know, under Von Braun's tutelage, and they wound up going to places in the, you know, far to the east, and they wound up building the foundations of the Russian, or Soviet Union, rocket program.
	Which then led to the space race and Sputnik and all that we have lived through and ultimately led to Apollo and the unmanned missions and the last 30 or 40 years of space history under NASA that we in the West have looked at.
	Okay.
	That's the story we have been told.
	What is not known is that these people that were brought over, deliberately placed in the Army, in the CIA, and in NASA as part of Operation Paperclip, Had some pretty crazy and strange and bizarre credentials.
	Because in addition to being good rocket engineers and scientists, it turns out that they also were card-carrying members of the Nazi Party, who have these extraordinary beliefs, particularly some of them sharing the beliefs of Heinrich Himmler.
	In the destiny of the Aryan race, In the progenitor of the Aryan race on the planet Mars, and in the destiny of the Nazis to rule the world for the next thousand years, and return to that planet.
	And, as recently as 1984, it turns out from documents I am sitting here tonight looking at, which will be published on the web in the next few days, there has been under FOIA, the Freedom of Information Act, the most interesting set of paper trails as to who we
	actually brought over and what they did in our...
	You know, you know what? All of this argument works rather well if you're talking about
	Europe or North America.
	But when you begin to talk about the Chinese getting into space
	and or the Japanese, then, you know, you've got to make a different argument
	because I don't think they would have the same religious, cultural
	restrictions about saying, hey, look, an ancient civilization, maybe
	maybe we did come from Mars.
	Wait, wait, wait, let me stop you there.
	Today, well actually yesterday, but today, Kind of.
	Is an anniversary, it's December 7th.
	Yes.
	Right?
	Yesterday.
	What happened on December 7th?
	Pearl Harbor.
	Yeah, and who was behind Pearl Harbor?
	The Japanese.
	Yeah, and who were they allied with?
	Oh, well... Adolf Hitler!
	Uh, well... It was a world conspiracy, a religious conspiracy against a West, alright?
	The underpinnings of Nazism, which is part of what we have been carefully looking at, are so intriguing in terms of this cult phenomenon, in terms of the belief systems.
	When you actually read Mein Kampf, which very few people have, you find that Adolf Hitler, in the most extraordinary phrase, and I don't have it in front of me so I can't quote it, but we will have it up on the web verbatim, word for word, he basically looks to, and this is going to strike a responsive chord, to Freemasonry in Europe as a model For how he will define his order and his party and create a church which will enslave men and women through appealing not to their brains, not to their minds, but to their emotions.
	So you mean from a structural point of view?
	From a structural perspective and in terms of similar beliefs.
	Because, you know, beliefs are kind of like technology.
	It's all who's behind them.
	And the Chinese?
	Well, the Chinese, of course, are part and parcel of close community.
	And now we're talking contemporaneously, I presume.
	All right?
	Not years ago.
	Right.
	Well, contemporaneously, when you look at where the rocket technology comes from, the rocket technology the Chinese are using came from the Soviet Union, which came from the Germans, which came from World War II.
	And Los Alamos, no doubt.
	And some of it may have come from Los Alamos.
	My point is that when you look at this tiny club, of technological ability to get off planet.
	And we trace it all back to its roots.
	It doesn't take a rocket scientist, pun intended, to see that if key people who still believe what their fathers or their grandfathers believed, who were part of a cult of belief that they are better than everybody else and they are destined to own this information, if not the world to which it is part, That they could, by putting themselves in key positions, manipulate, without anybody else really knowing, an enormous amount of other subsystems.
	Because this is so difficult, and so arcane, and so abstract, that most people, even in the program, only know their own job, their own specific, you know, mandated part of a much bigger whole.
	Sure.
	I mean, when you look at how many million pieces were in the Saturn V, What I have is an absolute replicated trail.
	Let me tell you where some of this leads.
	I am sitting here looking at a document that came from the Deputy Director of Intelligence Headquarters at the Army Command from June 1947 in Berlin to the Director of Intelligence in the War Department, General Staff in Washington, D.C.
	And it says, It cannot be ascertained by this office what the reasons were which caused von Braun to become a member of the SS.
	Neither can it be determined whether his positions in the SS were honorary, required by the Nazi Party, or desired by von Braun.
	No records of his arrest have been located.
	Then it says, as regards subject military and political activities, they are best summarized by the following report received from, and then it gives a whole series of Nazi Party records from the custody of the center, but it gives, among other things here, von Braun's SS number, which was 185068.
	Now this man, who became the favorite of presidents and kings all over the world, but particularly in this culture, took his band of fellow Nazis to Fort Bliss, And then to White Sands, a few miles south of me, here in New Mexico tonight, some 50 years ago.
	We have a photograph I'm going to put up on the whip of their time they spent in Fort Bliss.
	And there's a whole bunch of them standing around on the steps of a saloon in Fort Bliss.
	And there is this extraordinary sign.
	It's called Billy the Kid Curio Shop.
	And in the middle of the sign, there is this big, fat swastika.
	And what's really interesting is that the sign is in the shape of an unidentified flying saucer.
	It is a profile of a classic UFO.
	Now, there have been rumors for years that Von Braun and company and the Nazis were involved in a lot more interesting technology than a bunch of broken down V2s.
	Yeah, I've heard the rumors, yes.
	I have maps, we will put up.
	I was astonished when my colleague found in the National Archives the site maps For the Von Braun activities at White Sands.
	I don't know whether you've ever been to White Sands, okay?
	No, I have not.
	It's a big, flat desert.
	Right.
	And it was chosen as the first rocket site because you could launch rockets into Mexico and they could fall in the Schiaparello and nothing would be harmed.
	And a lot of rockets were launched from White Sands, unequivocally.
	What I found astonishing, absolutely astonishing, given the The Egyptian ritual trail, which also was the same trail that Himmler and the SS were following.
	Himmler was patterning his SS after a secret order, the Knights Templar, or the Jesuits in the Roman Catholic Church.
	Himmler called him his Ignatius Loyola.
	He was looking to recreate a religious order which had extraordinary aggressive and militaristic overtones.
	But was founded on occult information derived, among other things, from Egypt and Tibet.
	And the people who were high up in the SS and Von Braun eventually achieved the rank of Major.
	None of this is known.
	People don't know that Werner Von Braun was a Major in this extraordinarily evil organization that everybody sees as the, you know, the custodians of the death camps.
	Well, among other things, the SS was sent by Himmler to look for extraordinary information and technologies, ancient technologies, all over the world.
	Right.
	The cliché we see in the Indiana Jones movies is not a cliché.
	It's real.
	They actually sent on expeditions.
	I have film from the archives, 8mm film, of an SS expedition coming back with a mule train of 140 mules loaded with crates of documents.
	Including several monks.
	No, I really believe I've seen quite a bit on that.
	I think you're right.
	So this is not a secret.
	What is astonishing, of course, given that we have found a pattern encompassing two key numbers in these ritual alignments, 19.5 degrees and 33, over and over and over again.
	What is absolutely astonishing is to discover that out in that damn desert in the middle of nowhere, when Von Braun set up his test site, they They named and numbered their launch site for the V2's Launch Site 33.
	It was the only one?
	Even all of this, Richard, going back to the Faxer's original contention.
	With the Europeans, the Chinese, the Japanese, others planning Mars missions, at some point, you know, it's going to fall apart.
	It's going to fall apart.
	At some point, but will that point be when it is too late?
	When it doesn't matter?
	In other words, if we're looking at a clock ticking, And this is what makes me so apprehensive as to the nakedness now of two missions being stolen.
	It means either people are getting really desperate or they're getting so they just don't give a damn.
	That the clock is now so close on what their plans are.
	And what they have secretly prepared and how they're about to move on them.
	They've only got to keep the dike plugged up for a little while longer.
	You got it.
	I mean, I will call to mind that there was a very aggressive Mars probe sent by the Japanese last year.
	Mars?
	Yes.
	And it's now been delayed three years.
	It's kind of lost in space on its own.
	Right.
	It rounded the moon, made the wrong kind of mid-course correction.
	And it will not get to Mars out by a way-bound route for another three years.
	You'll wonder how that happened.
	Yeah, well, when you start looking at these alignments and apply them to other space programs, you find exactly the same ritual.
	And let me, while we have this couple of minutes here, let me talk about that.
	In 1996, I found, by a rather serendipitous route, this pattern in the original lunar landings.
	By Aldrin and Armstrong on the move.
	Oh, well, I recall.
	And we have been following this trail and expanding the database and trying to interest other researchers and other, you know, mathematically inclined people to test our data.
	We have not claimed it's extraordinary.
	It requires extraordinary evidence.
	All it required was good statistical analysis.
	Well, a couple, three months ago, a young engineer out of Boeing named Mary Ann Weaver, who now works for another company, decided to give our model a test.
	And she has written an extraordinary paper which is published on the web and is available through your website and enterprise.
	And there have now been mathematically inclined people and scientists, chemists and physicists and others from universities all over the world who have given her strong approbation that she has done her homework correctly.
	She has followed the proper rules of statistical analysis, and she has come to the conclusion that we are right.
	That the Hoagland-Berra model for these stellar alignments, repeating over and over again these extraordinary ancient religious patterns of 19.5 degrees, 33 degrees, the meridian, the horizons, are accurate, covering launches that she looked at from 1958 to the late 1970s.
	Something like 85 or 90 launches, including the Apollo missions.
	Her final odds that this is just coincidence or accident or chance are over 20 trillion to one.
	20 trillion to one against chance.
	Yeah, she's willing to come on the air, isn't she?
	She's absolutely willing to come on the air.
	In fact, she's in Texas tonight, probably listening to us, because when she heard I was going to be on, she called me up and she said, Art wouldn't want to have me on tomorrow night.
	I can't do it for another couple of days.
	I have some fan business to attend to, and I said, no, I said we were going to go through this tonight, but I would make well mention of her paper, because she has been joined now by an economist from Britain.
	All right, we will pick up on this when we get back.
	We're near the bottom of the hour.
	I'm Art Bell.
	How many trillion to one?
	Are you listening out there?
	I'm Art Bell.
	By the way, this from Florida Today Space Online, dated December 7th, yesterday, entitled, By the Light of a Communist Moon.
	Landmark launch shakes the world.
	Indulging in a bit of jingluistic hyperbole, the China Daily headline proudly proclaims launch and recovery of the Shenzhou spacecraft, China's entry into the exclusive club of human spaceflight.
	While few governments or scholars were actually shaken by this great leap forward, The launch of this manned precursor has positioned China to become a major player in space as the 21st century dawns.
	And while not an event of Sputnik-like proportions, despite Chinese boast to the contrary, the flight of Shenzhou, or the Vessel of the Gods, demonstrates China's willingness to make a substantial investment required I just got an interesting fact myself, and I think it deserves reading, because people, you know, they look to what are called opinion makers to make up their minds.
	during the heated years of the space race.
	So there's the story on the Chinese, Richard.
	I just got an interesting fact myself, and I think it deserves reading, because people,
	you know, they look to what are called opinion makers to make up their minds.
	Sure.
	Well, here's a note from an opinion maker.
	Dear Richard, I am a reporter for Canadian's national newspaper, The National Post.
	I interviewed you, I believe, in 1996 after your National Press Club lecture in Washington.
	When we got back to Toronto, our footage ended up being quashed by higher-ups at the Toronto TV station we were shooting for.
	Really?
	I always regretted not being able to get the interview on the air.
	But I just wanted to let you know that some members of the national media do support you.
	I find your analysis far more believable and plausible than any of the pablums spoon-fed from NASA or the so-called experts.
	You could be 100% wrong, but isn't it worth reporting as part of the infinite possibilities of ongoing space exploration?
	Indeed.
	Independent thought is the weakest quality of today's journalists.
	The pack mentality of the Fourth Estate is deplorable.
	And too many reporters would rather recite official press releases than do their own digging, their own thinking.
	That's true.
	I'm up at this hour writing a piece and happen to have the radio show on with Art Bell and heard your interview.
	Your passion and expertise is quite evident.
	I applaud your years of research.
	Please heave up the flight.
	The world needs more people like you.
	Hopefully we can talk in the near future and run a feature on your recent developments.
	Best regards.
	I wonder if they'll let him run it now.
	Exactly.
	Now, the other thing I want to make very clear is that before we leave tonight, I want to lay out an agenda for what we can do.
	Well, you better do that now.
	We should do that now.
	We're speaking to most of the audience up until 3.
	That's right, and I want to take some calls in the next hour anyway, so let's get it out.
	Well, the first thing you can do is to fax Dan Gold and let him know you know the jig is up.
	You know what faster, better, cheaper really now means.
	Alright?
	And that you're not going to stand for it.
	Remember, these people still have to obey a Congress, and there are a lot of people in Congress who I'm sure tonight are shaking their heads and wondering how many times can this happen before something is really wrong.
	Yeah, I'm sure.
	So there's a very sensitive window here where if you fax Golden, whose phone number is 202-358-2810,
	that's 202 in Washington, D.C., 358-2810, it can have an impact.
	Because what you want to do when you send any of these faxes, don't just send them to one person.
	Send copies at the bottom to other people, like my friend Ted Koppel over at ABC.
	Send the Dan Golden copy to Ted.
	202-222-7976.
	That's 202-222-7976.
	That's 202-222-7976.
	The CNN number, and you send the same tracks you sent to Golden to CNN.
	With a copy to Golden saying you're sending it to CNN.
	This is the way the game works, alright?
	404-681-3578.
	That's area code 404 down there in Atlanta.
	681-3578.
	Now here's one that may be more difficult for you to swallow.
	down there in atlanta six eight one
	three five seven eight
	now here's one that may be more difficult for you to swallow
	this is the white house number and what you want to do is to forget bill clinton but send
	it to al gore Say, Al, we know you can change this, but if you don't change it, or speak out about it, you may not get to be the president you want to be.
	Let him know that his reputation as a technologist, as someone who is trying to be the president of the 21st century, or the first one, He's on the line.
	Yeah, he should be speaking out.
	Absolutely.
	The phone number there, the fax number, we've tested all these.
	These really work.
	They ring through.
	There are real live fax machines at the other end of these numbers.
	In addition, folks, they're public fax machines, including that of Dan Golden.
	So we're not swapping somebody's private number.
	These are all public fax machines.
	We'll get to that later.
	Just kidding.
	Okay, the YMF fax number is 202-456.
	2-4-6-1.
	Area code 202 in Washington.
	4-5-6-2-4-6-1.
	Now, I got a wild card or two on the list here, alright?
	Sure.
	I've got Pat Buchanan's number.
	Pat Buchanan is not, I repeat, not a Nazi.
	That is the most remarkable piece of disinformation Because the powers that be are absolutely terrified that he and Ventura together in that party, the Reform Party, are going to shake the political system to its foundations.
	And when you see what happened in Seattle, and all the people that believe like Buchanan that there has been too much amorphous bureaucracy, you know, trading our sovereign- A Nazi.
	That is the most remarkable piece of disinformation, because the powers that be are absolutely terrified that he and Ventura together in that party, the Reform Party, are going to shake the political system to its foundations.
	And when you see what happened in Seattle, and all the people that believe like Buchanan that there has been too much amorphous bureaucracy, you know, trading our sovereignty at home for amorphous deals abroad, You can see why they might be a little bit concerned.
	You bet.
	Now, if Pat were to add to his arsenal of weapons, taking back the Constitution and kind of giving us a space program we deserve?
	To find out what's really out there that we bought and paid for?
	Right.
	He would resonate with an awful lot of people, and you don't have to believe again.
	You're out of politics, you don't believe everything somebody says, but you rely yourselves with those that have a chance of striking a blow for your freedom.
	So here's Pat Buchanan's number. 703.
	7-3-4-2-7-0-5.
	Area code 703, they're in Arlington, Virginia.
	7-3-4-2-7-0-5.
	Now, somewhere around here I have the number for the Libertarian Party.
	Are you still a Libertarian, Art?
	I sure am.
	Okay, well... More firmly than ever, I might add.
	Here it is, here it is.
	Okay.
	Harry Brown.
	He's still the presidential candidate, as far as I know.
	Am I correct?
	Well, in my eyes, I mean, yes.
	Okay.
	And they have their convention sometime next year, next summer, next summer, but Brown is still the standard bearer for the Libertarian Party.
	Well, I think he's going to be.
	Okay.
	Their phone number is area code 202-333-0072.
	code 202-333-0072. That's area code 202 in Washington, 333-0072.
	Now all these numbers are on the Enterprise website at the very top on the main
	page right next to a backwards NASA symbol, which is not an accident.
	This is not Keith, you know, Scott Eagle, you know, making a dumb mistake tonight.
	This is deliberate.
	There is something rotten in Denmark and in the United States.
	It smells all the way from here to Mars.
	But unless we do something, folks, it ain't going to change.
	This is really in our hands.
	Now, remember the win we had last year.
	Remember that it was your faxes and your phone calls and your emails that forced Golden and Mail and Company to take those three pictures of Sedonia.
	I well recall, yes.
	Unequivocally, without your efforts, that would not have occurred.
	Well, this is a little bigger.
	This is for all they wrote.
	This is for the entire McGilla.
	This is the game.
	If they close down NASA, if they say, oh, well, we can't really do all this, And you heard tonight, of course, they're delaying the shuttle for the Hubble repair mission.
	I can't wait to run the numbers and the alignments on to see whether they're waiting for the appropriate ritual time.
	The thing that is most important for people to do now is to go to the web and read Mary Ann Weaver's paper, and then read Bob Harrison's paper.
	He's the economist from London.
	Who ran similar alignment calculations on 990.
	And once again, Mary Ann Weaver is a mathematician, right?
	Well, she's an engineer.
	Engineer.
	Who used mathematics and analyses of radio and emission patterns and aircraft systems at Boeing.
	But the mathematical technologies and techniques are exportable to all kinds of other analyses.
	And her assessment is, give it to them again.
	Her assessment is that based on, you know, 35, 40 years of NASA launches that were pre-lunar, she restricted her initial investigation only to pre-lunar and lunar missions.
	Something like 85 separate missions in which the Apollo program was part.
	Right.
	She found that the bottom line is that there are odds of over 20 Brilliant to one against this repeating 19.5 and 33 degree pattern for Sirius and Orion and Leo and Regulus and those key Egyptian ancient ritual stars coming up over and over and over and over again like they do and they came up for Mars Polar Lander!
	At the instant this spacecraft was supposed to land on Friday at 12.01 Martian time, you know, allowing the 15 minutes for the signal to get back.
	Right.
	If you had been standing at the landing site watching this thing come down out of the sky, you would have looked to the southwest and you would have seen Orion at 33 degrees and the Earth at 19.5 degrees.
	and the earth at 19.5 degrees.
	Oh, and by the way, the landing site was 76 degrees south and 195 west.
	195.
	Right.
	I mean, this sounds like a broken record, but unless you understand the kooky minds that have crafted this ritual, which is part of a lot of other kooky rituals of people all over this planet for the last several thousand years.
	No, I must admit, the mathematical odds are pretty interesting.
	Oh, they're extraordinary!
	Yeah.
	I was in Vegas over the weekend, and I said to my audience, look, you give me odds like this, and I will own the world by tomorrow night going down this trip.
	There is no way these odds are not compelling evidence of a reality.
	Now, you may not want to go there.
	You may not want to believe there are Nazis running things behind our back that have quietly been planning for 40 or 50 years to get back at you-know-who for killing and defeating you-know-what.
	But they have, and they are, and the numbers prove it, and the bizarreness of things not getting where they're supposed to go at the end of the process As opposed to the beginning.
	I've got to tell every honest person there's something wrong here and want to help us figure it out.
	All right.
	Well, you've given people plenty of numbers and contacts and things they can go do.
	So hopefully they will do that.
	In the meantime, I'm rather interested now in what the audience has to say to you.
	So in the next hour, let's turn our attention a little bit to the phones and see what questions people have for you.
	That be all right?
	Absolutely.
	All right, good.
	That's exactly what we're going to do.
	Hold on, Richard.
	We'll hold you through the final hour tonight.
	And we'll go to the phones.
	And no, it don't come easy.
	It never does, but you just keep plugging away.
	So if you have questions, Richard's about to go on the air with you.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	All right, once again, back to Richard C. Hoagland, and as promised, we are going to take Richard to the telephones and see what's on your minds.
	We're exploring what's happened with the Mars Polar Lander that apparently didn't land.
	You know, I have a couple of facts with you.
	One that just came in from Florida today, which is Kind of the Space Coast... Oh, yes.
	I read one myself.
	Yeah, well, I just noticed the name of the Chinese spacecraft.
	Yes.
	Shenzhou?
	That's right.
	You know what it translates to?
	No.
	Vessel of the Gods.
	Oh, Vessel of the Gods.
	Yes, I read that.
	Give me a break!
	Art, they're all in on it.
	When I say they, I mean the ones that are actually controlling the flow.
	This is a religious cult.
	It is global.
	It all stems from the German efforts after the war.
	I mean, all that technology they actually admit in this piece that they got their hardware from the Russians.
	Yeah, you must have missed it at the beginning of the last hour, Richard.
	I read that.
	Well, I heard you read something relating to it, but I didn't think you had actually read the name.
	No, I said Vessel of the Gods.
	Amazing.
	The other one I got here is from another Boeing engineer.
	You know, we've got a lot of good friends at Boeing.
	Oh, yes.
	He says, Art, I have more photos and technical drawings of Nazi special equipment.
	There is more to this than Hoagland realizes.
	Well, with all due respect, sir, I doubt it, because he has a photo and a seal, a patch, From the German Antarctic Expeditions of 1938.
	Oh yes.
	And I gotta tell you that what they were doing in the Antarctic and how that fits into their gestalt, their worldview of who they are and where they came from and where they should rightfully go back is all part of the bigger picture.
	Obviously we gotta do more programs on this as we get this data up and the documentation out there because this is a key thread to explore.
	Who has been doing what in terms of our history?
	And manipulating a lot of honest people for their own secret, hidden agenda, and for how long.
	All right.
	To the phones, as promised.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland and Art Bell.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning, Richard.
	Good morning.
	I'm kind of disturbed at what I'm hearing here.
	Good.
	So am I. Yeah, it kind of sounds like to me that you're saying that humanity and history is kind of being guided here by secret society.
	And we're kind of locked into something where we're blind and Americans can't see past our bellies.
	You know, you're summarizing the last four hours very appropriately.
	You really are.
	You're almost saying exactly some very disturbing things that I've heard on our Bell Show.
	I've heard you guys talking about it a lot.
	It's just all starting to tie together, this new world order.
	The good news is that we have a forensic tool, which I've been talking about since 96.
	We've now got independent studies that demonstrate overwhelmingly it's real.
	I'm calling it our ritual fingerprint tool.
	And whenever you see a crime, the first thing that the cops or the FBI or whatever agency is in charge of investigating looks for is a modus operandi, kind of a pattern of behavior.
	Sure.
	And when they see that pattern attached to a particular event, they say, oh, it's probable that so-and-so did it.
	We now have this extraordinary tool, and you don't have to believe what these guys believe to apply the tool.
	Well, you know, what we do is we apply the tool to all these various events and missions, and lo and behold, we see the same pattern come up over and over and over again, and it's internally consistent.
	A lot of people have asked me, well, how in the world can you connect 19.5 degrees, which is a geodetic measurement, with 33 degrees, which is a Masonic ritual, you know, hierarchical order?
	And the answer is very simple.
	If you take a calculator, everybody who's got a calculator now, take it out and do the following.
	Punch in 19.47 degrees, which is the actual, you know, four decimal digit for 19.5.
	Then you punch sine.
	on your calculator.
	And you'll see that it's 0.33333 for that number.
	So the relationship between 33 and 19 1⁄2 is simply that one is the sign of the other.
	And what the Masons did, Albert Pike actually, in changing the Scottish Rite when it was brought to the United States, Is he set up a system whereby you awarded a high level 33 degree to those few people that made it through the torturous labyrinth of the other 32 degrees of masonry.
	And the sum of the 33rds, not everybody but a few, were apparently brought in the back door to learn or believe or work on certain things unbeknownst to everybody else.
	It's the way You gather people together to do things you don't want everyone else to know about.
	What is striking to me is that into this system, which existed long before the Nazis were ever even a twinkle in Hitler's eye, we had a basic system in this country where masons of prominence fulfilled public policy positions.
	George Washington was a mason.
	Many of the founding fathers, some 50 of them were masons.
	It was an extraordinarily honorable calling to be a Mason and to be part of the founding of this country and guiding its evolution.
	But somewhere along the line, as NASA was born at the end of the 50s, after the gestation of the German Nazi rocket scientists in the 40s and 50s, The Masons were taken over, these small people, this small group of people inside NASA that felt they were guiding NASA to an evolutionary and enlightening path, and they appear to have been taken over by a much more destructive and secretive organization that superseded them, namely the crowd that came in from Europe, from Operation Paperclip.
	And now it's hard to tell in terms of the pattern whether it's being managed by the Masonic side, Which I believe is trying to do the right thing, or it's being managed by the Nazi side, which is definitely not trying to do the right thing.
	The fingerprints only tell us what is being done, it doesn't tell us the agenda.
	Now, losing spacecraft is not a good thing.
	If someone is trying to kill NASA, the way to do that is to basically go after the money.
	You basically get a string of failures.
	You get ordinary folks sitting in their living rooms, watching TV, watching CNN, saying, I'm not going to waste any more of my money going out there for that damn you-know-what.
	And suddenly, you no longer have an open space program with a prayer of finding out what's out there.
	And you all go black.
	I don't want that to happen.
	It can't happen.
	It must not be allowed to happen.
	All right, Wild Card Line, you're on here with Richard C. Holcomb.
	Hi, good morning, this is Dave.
	I'm calling from San Jose, listening on KSFO.
	Yes, sir.
	I want to touch on Jack Parsons, but quickly, Richard, isn't this mission the 33rd NASA attempt?
	And if you're giving a score at home, if this is, Mars is winning 19 to 14 so far.
	Those are interesting numbers.
	Now, when you say 33rd, do you mean in terms of all missions sent to Mars?
	I think, you know, I'm not really sure of this, but I know I could send this via Mike Barra to you.
	Yeah, send me an email via Lunar Anomalies, because if that's true, that would be remarkable.
	No, no, really, honestly, you know, I don't have the article in front of me if they work right now.
	But I thought yesterday... Well, when you get it, when you get it, pass it on.
	I certainly will, and... Well, let me tell you another coincidence, which I don't believe is coincidence, because we're dealing... I may have forgotten to bring it up, by the way.
	I don't mean to interrupt.
	We're dealing with people that are pretty nasty.
	Oh, yeah.
	You know, this is... Let me phrase this correctly.
	Mars Polo Lander was supposed to land on Friday, December 3rd, right?
	That happened to be, and I don't think it's happenstance, and we'll get into this in another program, But it happened to be precisely 33 days after the sacrifice at Egypt Air Flight 990.
	Brilliant.
	Brilliant, Richard.
	It is connecting back.
	Which carried a NASA high-level person, the head of the Physics and Chemistry Division of NASA-Lewis.
	Yeah, I sent that to you, didn't I?
	Yes, you did.
	I did.
	I found that.
	Who was a colleague with Abe Silverstein back in the 60s, who was director of NASA-Lewis, who was the person who named The Apollo program after Apollo slash Horus, which is the Egyptian son of Orion and Isis.
	Alright, uh, Caller, Caller, I know you have something else, so get it out.
	Yeah, real quick.
	You mentioned Jack Parsons, by the way?
	Yes.
	Are you going to be posting some of his... Oh, absolutely.
	There's a treasure trove on Parsons, on Theodore von Karman, for whom von Karman Auditorium is named.
	The strange occult beliefs.
	I have nothing against occult beliefs because occult is a whisker away from hyper-dimensional in terms of how the physics really operate.
	Absolutely, and people... But we're talking beliefs here.
	We're talking whacked-out religious idiots who basically think nothing of killing people for death magic in pursuit of their own agendas.
	Absolutely, Richard, and people want to do a search.
	all they have to do is go to a basically a yahoo search and do a search of jack
	parsons and punch in the babylon working and you'll have the crawley parsons jpl
	connections brought right to you i know it sounds outlandish but it's it's
	surreal i mean a lot of people have computers and they can go and do it
	Thank you very much.
	This is the nexus that we have had to be very careful about approaching until we have the absolute evidence, and we do.
	Richard, you mentioned 990, and I want to let the program get by before asking you about Flight 990.
	What do you know?
	Um, that is so complicated.
	In my opinion, based on our research from the last month, 990 was deliberately killed It had too many of these key numbers, including 33 military officers, um, 33 passengers from Los Angeles.
	That is true.
	33, uh, Egyptian military officers.
	You got it.
	It was cut down 33 minutes after leaving JFK, but the actual physics of what happened to it, which we have been publishing in increments on the website, is most remarkable.
	The most remarkable thing of all, and I tested this on, on Saturday with, I'm sorry, Sunday with a commercial 767 captain in my audience.
	He agreed with me there is no way that aircraft could have magically climbed without engines over two miles from below 16,400 feet up to 24,000 feet.
	Something incredibly interesting happened to that vehicle and unfortunately all those people died because of it.
	And in a future program when we have a few more facts and we have the offer of a 767 simulator Yes.
	to enterprise to actually check out some of our ideas.
	Yes.
	We will come back on and we will do a program on the details.
	The remarkable physical and ritual details surrounding 990.
	But thank God the Egyptians are not letting this pass and letting Gamal El-Bakouti, who was a relief pilot,
	take the fall, because in fact something much more awful and mysterious
	happened and it appears to be part of this awful ritual pattern.
	Watching the politics of this was interesting.
	The U.S., of course, originally laid on this co-violet.
	Yep.
	And most assuredly so.
	I mean, very strongly so.
	And then all of a sudden, all hell broke loose from Cairo.
	And the U.S.
	backed off at about 1,000 miles an hour and began to agree, well, let us not prejudge this and blah, blah, blah, blah, so you could see the politics moving Washington from 1,000 miles away.
	Well, what's happening is that things are becoming so outrageous and these founders are being transgressed so openly that the honest part of the system, which cannot imagine that this could have been going on, is in a dither and looking around and and fumbling for explanations and is beginning to figure out that life and reality and politics is not exactly the way we were all taught.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Mark.
	Good morning, Richard.
	Hi, my name is Bill.
	I'm calling from West Hartford, Connecticut.
	Hi, Bill.
	Hi.
	Hi, Richard.
	My old stomping grounds.
	Yes, yes.
	I'm trying to get a job.
	I'm an amateur astronomer.
	I'm trying to get a job, if I can, where I used to work, by the way, at the Jangerous Planetarium in St.
	Petersburg.
	Jangerous Planetarium, yes.
	Yes.
	Richard, I have a fantastic theory.
	Let me tell you about what I think really happened to the Mars Polar Lander.
	I think both MPL and MCL were co-opted.
	I think that Once the signal was turned off, the bad guys got control of Mars Polar Lander.
	Assuming they could do this, you'll tell me in a second if they could, they changed their trajectory to fly over Cydonia, to use the Marvian descent imager.
	No, no, no, I'm not going to get to that last review, because Mike Perry and I were discussing this outrageous idea.
	And while they were sending the signal to NCO, NASA was following the South Poles, so they relayed it there.
	The fake signal to the Mars Global Surveyor.
	Technically, it is not at all impossible, alright?
	The key thing here is, who in their right mind designs a mission like Mars Observer was designed back in 93?
	Yes.
	Where you turn off the signal and can't follow, for any engineering, the flight all the way to the surface.
	Yes.
	There's nothing to analyze.
	When Dan Golden says, we're going to go back now and analyze this, He's listening up, whatever, because there's nothing to analyze.
	What do you think of the possibility that NPM, the polar lander, flew over Cydonia, got real close-up pictures of the fort, etc., etc., landed relatively near Cydonia, sent back a signal via Mars Climate Orbiter, and the bad guys got real super-duper close-ups of the fort and everything?
	Technically, it is feasible.
	Whether it happened, I mean, I have no way of knowing, but technically what you're describing could have been done.
	Could you run the number to see if the trajectory could have either sped up or slowed down, because it was a, I guess it was going from the south to the north?
	No, remember, remember, remember, just before the entry on Friday morning, CNN and JPL proudly told us that they put in a last-minute mid-course correction, and I'm saying, wait a minute, that's crap!
	They wouldn't do that for Mars Yeah.
	Climate Orbiter because they didn't want to risk you know every time you do one of these things. There's a certain
	risk But on that mission where they already have the bad
	experience of the previous ten weeks You know the climate orbiter they decided to tweak it for
	one lousy kilometer yeah
	Make no sense Everybody you know the other thing they were saying that I
	don't understand how they were saying was that When they thought it was down they were saying it's
	wonderful. We came down within a couple of kilometers of where we wanted to come down
	Mm-hmm.
	How the hell would they have known that?
	They can't.
	They can't?
	No.
	But they were saying it.
	But that was in the same time frame that they were goodnighting all those people at the consoles.
	Yep.
	Our guy from Irish television, I mean, he was astounded.
	I gotta get this guy a bottle of champagne.
	I know, but I'm still trying to figure out how they possibly could say where it went down when they still don't know that it Well, one would presume it was based on a trajectory plot.
	In other words, it was here at this time, and it was there at that time, and the model said that it then should have landed within X number of miles of where it was supposed to.
	But, the fact that they did a mid-course that morning, our friend, you know, I think you have something in that it would have been so easy when it turned around to steal it electronically.
	And that midcourse was in fact designed to send it somewhere else totally.
	And they've been looking in the wrong place, the honest guys.
	Because the space program is not ours anymore.
	And this is getting much more egregious.
	I mean, we're being told tonight The Hubble is upstairs with broken gyroscopes, not looking at anything.
	How much would you want to bet it's looking at something that we're not supposed to know about?
	I gotcha.
	Alright, hold it right there, Richard.
	Maybe we'll find out, cuz...
	The song says, if we get that far, the night has a thousand eyes.
	Some of them are tightly shut.
	Once again, Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard, we are back on.
	I've got a fact I've got to read you.
	It's one line and it's just fascinating.
	Oh, sure.
	Fire away.
	It says, Dear Art, your guest has entirely too much information to be on the up and up.
	I don't know.
	You know, it's like, if you want to put your head in the sand, if you don't want to go where we're going, fine.
	But don't deny the actual documentation that we have assembled, which is available for anybody.
	The last caller who said, just go to the web, do a search on Parsons, the web is an extraordinary tool.
	Certainly is.
	I was fascinated last night during the debate between McCain and Orrin Hatch.
	To see McCain trying to enlist Hatch in an effort, which was really a kind of a dig at George W. Bush, when McCain said that most governors do not want to tax the Internet, they don't want to, you know, put a lid on this extraordinary genie.
	That's right.
	And Bush is one of the few governors who has not signed on to keep the Internet tax-free.
	Not surprising.
	Well, but it's important to see the flow, the ebb and flow of the undercurrents politically.
	The web now gives us an extraordinary equalizer.
	In the other eras, you know, when the bad guys started doing stuff, you didn't have a clue, first of all.
	By the time you did, you know, the only thing you could confront the web with was a 45 or a 22.
	Now we've got this extraordinary tool.
	If enough people get together and do their own homework and come to the same conclusions independently that we have, based on years of looking, Then things can change, because the evidence is there.
	It's been so overwhelmingly loaded onto this extraordinary information reserve called the Internet, the World Wide Web, that a lot of stuff now that you would have to spend thousands of dollars to go to the National Archives, you can sit in your den and get for nothing.
	For nothing!
	Provided you want to know what's really going on.
	It's all true about the web.
	It's absolutely true, and taxing it is an insane idea.
	The irony of it, though, is that the government birthed the web, and now here it is, probably their archenemy.
	Well, the rogue elements that are trying to steal the Constitution from us, it certainly is theirs, but again, Alright, come back to what I've said earlier.
	Which means they're not quite perfect, huh?
	Nothing is perfect.
	These guys put their pants on one leg at a time, just like everybody else.
	And we have caught them in all kinds of very inconsistent lies.
	Occasionally, I guess, they get caught in a zipper, huh?
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard C. Holguin.
	Hi.
	Oh, is this me?
	That's you.
	Yeah, um...
	I was off air for a little while there, so I probably missed some key important details here, but I'd like to fill you guys in on some.
	You know, I mean, I listen to your show, man.
	I know about the aliens and whatnot, and I think it's kind of a moot point, but they nabbed the Martian lander.
	The Martian.
	You know, I mean, who grabbed all theirs?
	What else are they gonna do?
	Geez.
	I mean, come on.
	That's just, you know, like, about the easiest thing to think of.
	Well, now, wait a minute.
	Let's look at this carefully.
	If that's true, When would you want to nab a spacecraft being sent out from Earth from a young civilization?
	From a young civilization?
	Like how you're talking here?
	Like newborn?
	Well, in other words, think of us, forget anything I've ever said, and just assume that the standard model is correct.
	That the human race has evolved from the caves, and we've finally developed spaceships, and we're exploring our own backyard for the first time, right?
	So we started sending out probes 30-some years ago.
	The first Mars mission, successful mission, was 1965.
	That's right, right.
	Why would the Martians wait until 30-some years later to begin knocking off probes?
	Wouldn't you want to keep yourself a secret from the get-go, from the beginning?
	Never let us know we were out there?
	One would think so, wouldn't one?
	This has a pattern of a human conspiracy.
	Where humans find out there's stuff where the rest of us aren't supposed to know about, and they take belated steps to, A, keep it to themselves, and make sure we don't figure it out.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	I've got a question for Richard.
	All right.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in West Lafayette, Indiana.
	Okay.
	And James Chadwick, who basically discovered the neutron, have you heard of him, Richard?
	Of course.
	I was reading a brief history of time here.
	Just as you were talking about the Germans coming over here after the war.
	We brought them over.
	In fact, Art, would you like to know the date that the Joint Chiefs signed the order, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs signed the order to bring paperclip scientists over here?
	What was the date?
	July 20th, 1945.
	I just want to read this real quick.
	He won the Nobel Prize for that.
	Right.
	And as it later says, he later resigned as master because of disagreements with the fellows.
	There had been a bitter dispute in the college ever since a group of young fellows returning after the war voted many of the old fellows out of the college offices.
	This also happened with another Nobel Prize winner, Neville Knott.
	Sir Neville Knott.
	Do you know anything about that?
	Who these people were?
	Cause him to resign?
	Not specifically, but this is a pattern where, you know, young blood takes over old blood.
	I mean, that's not unusual.
	What would be unusual is if there were any interesting political overtones.
	Was Chadwick, you know, holding a particular position that was, shall we say, I mean, there were a lot of Germans who were infiltrated in British society before and during and after World War II.
	Who actually championed the Nazi cause?
	Somebody will have that answer.
	Uh, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Morning, gentlemen.
	I'm getting a low battery warning on my cell phone, so I'm just gonna ask a couple questions and listen on the air.
	Alright.
	So, uh, first off, is there any place that lists all of the missions to Mars?
	You know, all sources, Russia, China?
	Our military, NASA... I'd bet on the web, but... Well, I have got a document that was sent to me by one of our listeners.
	Let me reach over here.
	This is a stretch, because I'm... I'm going to have a second on the cell phone, so I can get my second question.
	I want to see if I understand your theory correctly.
	Adolf Hitler accidentally stumbled across an ancient secret that the Masons have been protecting all these centuries.
	And they've been fighting ever since for control of this secret.
	I would say that's a variant of the truth.
	It could have a lot of, you know, accuracy to it.
	What you have to understand is that there are two space programs.
	have been wiping out satellites in order to go up, excavate, catalog, and destroy the
	evidence before any of us find out what the secret is.
	Is that close?
	I would say that's a variant of the truth.
	It could have a lot of, you know, accuracy to it.
	What you have to understand is that there are two space programs.
	It's very clear now from the NASA videos, particularly the STS-80 that I, you know,
	gave Art years ago.
	Oh, yes.
	That we have spacecraft in orbit, photographed from our space shuttle, that clunky, cantankerous, primitive, Newtonian, reactive thing that we spent billions and billions and billions of gampsine to go anywhere.
	That spacecraft has been used to photograph some other kind of spacecraft that, frankly, I don't think are aliens.
	I think they're ours.
	Let me tell you why I think they're ours.
	The STS-80 mission As you know, photograph those things art at 19.5 degrees
	over the Amazon jungle.
	Things art at 19.5 degrees over the Amazon jungle at dawn with Orion on the horizon,
	which is the last shot when the camera pans down.
	Yep.
	What you may not know is it took me two years, but through one of our aerospace contacts, we got a copy of the flight plan.
	The revised flight plan of STS-80, which, as you also may remember, was delayed and delayed, and was the one where the astronauts couldn't get the hatch open to go outside and play with their tools in the cargo bay.
	I'm going to really introduce you to somebody, Richard.
	I had somebody at the house, and I showed them that video.
	I think I've told you this before.
	Yes, you have.
	And this person said, oh my God, I worked on that.
	Yep.
	I mean, that was the exact immediate comment.
	Anyway, that flight was delayed, and here's the punchline.
	So that all these events took place exactly according to his flight plan on orbit 195.
	When this pattern is realized, fully realized, as a forensic tool, we have a mechanism to nail who these guys are and what they're up to.
	We just have to apply it.
	And what I've said in Las Vegas, and I'll say it tonight on the air, is the more of you people who use Redshift and begin to look at this separately, and come up with your own analyses, and follow them to us through the web, to Enterprise, and to Lunar Anomalies, and to Art, the better it is, because ultimately, with all these eyes watching, nothing will happen that doesn't ring a bell, in terms of this pattern, if the pattern is there.
	Alright.
	First on color line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hi, Aaron.
	Hi, Rich.
	Hi, there.
	Good morning.
	Let me just say that I was turned on to your show just only a couple of months ago, and it's been freaking me out ever since.
	And I'm like, I'm a lifer.
	As long as you're on the air and as long as we can get it up here in Canada, I'll be listening.
	By the way, my name's Ray.
	I'm up in Winnipeg.
	Okay, Ray.
	Listening on CJOD 680.
	Yes, sir.
	I don't know, I just had an interesting thought.
	I'd heard Rich saying, like, 33 a whole lot, and it's something that I came up with, I don't know, basically taken from the Aztec calendar and some of your shows and whatnot with the year 2012.
	I don't know, it was just a weird thought, and I was like... Well, go ahead, lay it out.
	Yeah, I was playing around on a calculator, and I divided 33 into 2012.
	And it was funny, the number that came up, because it was 60.969696.
	Now, after the decimal point, either way you look at it, there's three sixes there.
	And it kind of freaked me out.
	Well, there's a lot of interesting mathematical things that happen when you play with calculators.
	I don't think I would attribute any special significance to that, because you can get a lot of interesting weird oddities that way.
	Well, some people would make that same argument, though, towards some of what you've said.
	The difference is that when you subject what we've said to any kind of decent analysis, it is totally non-coincidental.
	That's why Marianne Weaver should definitely be a guest as soon as you can find some room, because she'll tell you what her methodology was, how she started, She's laid it out in very basic terms.
	In the meantime, it's on the web, right?
	It's on the web.
	It's on the Enterprise website.
	All right.
	Good.
	So people can find that.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	This is Dusty out of Texas.
	Hi, Dusty.
	How are you doing?
	Fine.
	I had a question for Rich.
	I saw his report on the tetrahedral triangle and a face on Mars.
	I was wondering if you thought that pointed back to a Judean Christian God.
	You know, signs of that?
	Well, this whole concept of God and who he or she is, and how we all got to be here, is very deftly intermixed with history.
	In other words, if we're a lot older, the human race is a lot older than the 6,000 years according to the Bible, and some of the entities and beings and characters and personages that are enumerated In religious texts, in fact, were real entities, real people, real beings that interacted with the human species.
	Then, of course, the question is, you know, well, is it supernatural or is it merely very advanced cultures and technologies and mythologies that come down after a tremendous amount of time when people are remembering things and passing it down through verbal and vocal histories as opposed to being able to write it down.
	In other words, the more we look at the history of the solar system, particularly in terms of Dr. Van Flandern's work, where he has whole planets blowing up and Mars spinning off as a wandering planet after being a trapped moon of this other planet that was exploded, you begin to see that if these catastrophes have occurred over millions of years on a scale which the science is beginning to suggest they did, then an awful lot of what we think of as mythology, or as made-up stuff, Or as perhaps religious projections of our human yearnings to higher beings and a greater state of perfection may in fact be telling us a part of our own history which has passed into oblivion because nobody is around now to read what was written down.
	Well, a lot of preachers say they thought the world was created in 6,000 years, but the Bible really doesn't say that literally.
	No, it doesn't.
	They interpret that, but their interpretation really is wrong.
	And the interpretation is where it all comes down to the road, doesn't it?
	Right.
	Right.
	But see, the Bible speaks really literally.
	And a lot of preachers... But in other cases, it's extraordinarily poetical and metaphorical.
	Oh yeah, it is.
	You're correct there.
	A lot of preachers use it to their own context and their own benefit.
	The people who haven't exactly studied the Bible, um, with great, um, I don't know how to describe it, with a lot of enthusiasm.
	It is so subjective though and what that caller said at the beginning I thought was rather revealing.
	He wanted to know if everything you studied about Egypt and so forth points to the Christian God.
	And behind that remark is a wish and a hope and a prayer that you're going to say yes.
	Obviously.
	So it really relates to the entire apple cart That would get turned over, and maybe why we're not getting the information that's being held from us.
	Well, you know, Art, you've tapped on something important here, because in any conspiracy, you have... I mean, the term during the Nixon years was unindicted co-conspirator.
	That's right.
	There are other folks that will go along with the program because their objectives are also satisfied.
	They may not be directly involved in the conspiracy, but they don't speak up and they don't say anything because As long as it's going along in that direction, their ox is not being gored or their particular view is not being attacked or assaulted.
	And in this sense, you have a lot of people who I think have suspected there were weird things going on, but they haven't really wanted to blow the whistle because it might turn out not to be too good for their particular paradigm or their particular belief.
	And let things leave well enough alone.
	Alright, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland and not a lot of time, hello.
	Hi, my name's Ramon in the San Bernardino Mountains.
	Yes sir.
	And I was just wondering, hi Richard, hi Art, I've been listening to you guys for a while.
	Thank you.
	I was wondering if you had seen or heard of the trailer of the new movie Mission to Mars?
	Oh yes, yes, in fact I was going to announce that at the top of the show.
	Oh man, it was great, I just saw the trailer and it said, and they sum up the trailer very well, they say For all time, people may have been looking for the answers to the origins of life on Earth, but they've just been looking on the wrong planet.
	Well, I have something better, sir.
	All right?
	Remember, we have a Hollywood movie based on our work, which is at Universal, which is being given a very close hearing.
	I mean, the actual head of Universal called a few weeks ago and said that they love the script.
	They actually find the script enthralling, and now they're discussing practicalities of budget and stuff like that.
	So, we'll wait with bated breath to see which way they decide.
	But, as part of this research, we've been looking at all these other sudden Mars movies coming out of Hollywood.
	And you know, Arthur, there's a big one next spring, supposed to be debuting in March, called Mission to Mars.
	Yes.
	Coming out of Disney, which has a tremendous amount of NASA backing.
	Well, I had a call three days ago from Paul Davids.
	You know Paul.
	I do, of course.
	Paul, of course, is my co-author and writer and is going to be one of the key producers on our film.
	He was able to finally tell me with unequivocal assurance that it's real because he has good sources.
	The last scene in Mission to Mars takes place at Cydonia.
	All right, listen, we are out of time, Richard.
	Let's take your most important numbers.
	We only have a little time here.
	Important phone numbers and give them out one more time.
	Okay.
	Unfortunately, my web connection disappeared, so I can't do that.
	Oh.
	Alright.
	I would hit Dan Golden first.
	It's on the web.
	You know, I would copy a very strong fax to him, to all the other media people, and all the political candidates that we have listed there, from Pat Buchanan to John McCain.
	We've got John McCain's number up there now.
	We have the official White House Capitol Hill phone number.
	You get a real live person, an operator, Who can then give you the fax number of any senator or congressman if you want to send copies of your fax to Golden to them.
	If everybody does this, if millions of people really respond and take this back, things will change radically.
	Because we have had intelligence information that there have been some quiet, high-level inquiries from some political people of NASA in terms of the ritual alignments and the data that we've been presenting over the past several years.
	This last mission, this last straw, this disappearance of a mission that should have been a piece of cake, is literally the last straw, and should galvanize all of us into doing something, unless you don't care.
	If you don't care, do nothing, and you'll get exactly the same old same old.
	But if you do care, and I think if you stayed up all night with the rest of us, you do, then if you do these few simple things, I guarantee you, some remarkable results will happen.
	Alright, my friend, then, until next time, and that's what we always do, until next time, and there will be one, Richard, as always, thank you, a wonderful presentation, timely, right on the mark, thank you.
	Thanks, Art.
	Good night.
	That's Richard C. Hoagland, folks, and he will, of course, be back.
	Well, what a night!
	Tomorrow night, Ed Dames.
	Then, the following night, Dr. Reed with a whole lot of information that you haven't had before.
	Information which you've been screeching for regarding his background.
	Information, for example, from a microbiologist who will come on and testify about the samples, the negatives that I have, a new photograph, the alien in the freezer.

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