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Aug. 10, 1999 - Art Bell

02:45:18

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - John Nolan - Corporate Espionage. RC Hoagland - Miami Circle, Cydonia

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	Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM, from August 10th, 1999.
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, or good morning, as the case may be, across this great land of ours.
	From, in the West, the Tahitian and Hawaiian island chain, to the East, and the Caribbean islands, the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, specifically, St.
	Thomas, And the rest of the island.
	South into South America.
	North all the way to the bowl.
	And worldwide on the internet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm Art Bell.
	And my thanks to Broadcast.com for the distribution of the program.
	And of course the Intel Corporation for the Kodak that allows the G2 player to bring you live streaming video.
	And I hope that's going to work tonight.
	Because I'm conducting a test for about the next hour or two and I have a third generation night vision camera hooked up to a video camera pointed at the northwest sky because of course the precedence, hope that's correct, precedence, the meteor shower will begin in earnest tomorrow night and I want to be able to put that on streaming video so hopefully that's up and running.
	We'll check here in a moment.
	If it is, you're certainly going to want to take a look.
	In a moment coming up, Richard C. Hoagland from 7,000 feet in New Mexico.
	He's back.
	You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from August 10th, 1999.
	Music.
	Well, alright.
	Now, he, as you know, was in Miami, was the man who they credit, along with many others, with the leading force in saving the Miami Circle.
	He's won an Angstrom Science Award.
	He was a one-time correspondent or, I guess, advisor to Walter Cronkite and to NASA.
	He is Richard C. Hoagland.
	And he's at 7,000 feet in New Mexico.
	Richard, welcome back.
	Good evening, Art.
	How is it to be back in the mountains?
	It feels fantastic.
	You know, a lot of people said I wasn't going to be able to do this.
	We won't mention any names.
	Yes.
	But I've been here since Friday.
	This is a test to see whether I can actually function.
	And I've got to say that the treatments, the regimen, the alternative stuff I've been taking, the chelation, the hyperbaric, you know, enough drugstores to go from here to Miami and back.
	Obviously it's working.
	Obviously, you know, you can come back from something as serious as what I went through.
	And I've been doing all kinds of, you know, kind of home-like things like plumbing and running up and down the stairs and crawling under porches to try to fix some stuff on the swamp cooler and stuff like that.
	Sure.
	Not a twinge.
	I'm running out of breath.
	I feel, of course, there's also, you know, the old Dorothy Syndrome.
	You know, there's no place like home.
	Sure.
	It really is true, Art.
	And New Mexico is so special.
	The sky here tonight is incredible.
	The Perseids should be really spectacular.
	The only thing we're not going to be able to see, of course, is a solar eclipse tomorrow morning, because you have to be in a rowboat in the Atlantic or on Cornwall at the edge of England or in Europe somewhere to see that.
	Yes.
	We'll get to that in a couple of minutes.
	But being here is It's just as good for the soul.
	It just feels nice to be back at Enterprise.
	I understand.
	Going home is always great, and it's great to have you there, Richard.
	You've been missed.
	What we're going to have to do tonight, Richard, is, as you and I discuss part of the program, because we only have an hour, we'll line up more time.
	What we're going to do is tease, and we're going to cover a variety of subjects, things that Richard We'll cover with you on the air next week.
	Are you going to be back in Miami next week?
	Probably.
	There are some things here that might require me to stay a few extra days.
	So you might be there.
	So I might be here.
	But we'll leave a trail of breadcrumbs, as my grandmother used to say.
	Begin the tease.
	Tell us what it is that you've been working on, where you're going, that kind of thing.
	Well, the thing at the top, of course, about the circle, the hot new news is that the Wall Street Journal called us on Tuesday following this cute little surprise you didn't tell me about on Monday.
	You know, I had you all calling me up and saying, hey, you're in Time Magazine, congratulations.
	And I said, yeah, right.
	And after the third person called me, I realized, wait a minute, these guys are onto something.
	So I went out and got a copy, and lo and behold, there we are.
	So what does your most reliable spellbinder mean, hmm?
	Yeah, that's what they called you, my most reliable spellbinder.
	Well, go ahead and you're right, everybody, you can see Richard's picture in Time Magazine.
	You better hurry because a new one will be on the stands shortly, if it's not already.
	I think it's already on the stands.
	Yeah, but you can probably still get the one that was.
	No, we're going to stick it up on the website.
	This is one of those things where Time actually said something halfway decent.
	And then the article on you was very good.
	It's fair.
	It's balanced.
	I mean, it's amazing journalists actually can write.
	Anyway, following that, on Tuesday, the Wall Street Journal called.
	They apparently have been working quietly on a piece for some time on the Miami Circle, and the piece is apparently going to take the tone that, yes, we in Miami, you know, pulling in people like Robert Ghostwolf and some of our other friends, and overwhelmingly, with your support and this incredible audience, literally created a miracle.
	And the journal is going to have a front page story probably toward the end of this week, to that effect.
	And I think it should be pretty interesting, and as soon as I know when it's going to appear, I'll give you a nod and you can tell people.
	All right.
	Number two, we of course have something that we're doing on the Circle front, which is SaveTheCircle.org, which is the website of the organization we put together to raise funds.
	The trial where the eminent domain proceeding will be decided will take place October 4th.
	We have had a tremendous response from people all across the country and I want to thank everybody who's reached in their pockets and you know bought the medallions and the posters and I have to go back now and sign a lot more because they all went like snow and sunshine.
	That is the reason that the journal is really interested is because this is the first time That grassroots America, ordinary rank-and-file folks, are really interested in something so ancient and something so provocative.
	And this thing that's been created in Miami, where ordinary folks got together and basically said to the political structure, stop.
	You know, the dollar stops here.
	You're not going to destroy this.
	This is news.
	So let's continue to make news, folks, okay?
	If you want to donate to the Circle, if you want to get access to any of the things we've created as keepsakes, we have a Really amazing t-shirt now, which has the Miami City Circle logo that Kentia created, and we've got the medallions, you know, the actual facsimiles of the circle that are astronomically accurate.
	We love those.
	Ramona and I love those.
	They're gold, and they're incredible, Richard.
	I am just so glad, because I made so many people unhappy by saying, nope, go back to the drawing board.
	It's not right.
	So that number, if you want to get involved in this, is 1-800 One of the things we're working on is an auction on eBay.
	So if people have anything of value that they would like to donate, so the proceeds go to Miami-Dade County to save this thing, you can reach us at Save the Circle And there's a whole list of items that I was supposed to go through that we don't have time to go through tonight.
	Right.
	So I'll go through.
	We have more time next week.
	I'll go through all the things that are valuable, that are keepsakes, that are hot, like animations or classical art, deco stuff or whatever.
	There's a whole series of categories of things that you may think are worthless, but actually could be worth something to somebody and could help us save this.
	So I will get into the details next week.
	Just be thinking auction.
	Think eBay.
	Think the circle.
	And one last thing, if you want to volunteer to help us, and we really need volunteers, that's why some people have had a bit of a time getting the materials they've asked for and ordered.
	Right.
	It's because we are incredibly short-handed.
	The Wall Street Journal guys couldn't understand that we're not paying people, you know, because if we were to pay people, you couldn't afford to do this.
	That's right.
	So you need to get people who are sharp, who are motivated, and who want to be involved in something that's kind of neat and nifty.
	And if you're in the Miami or Fort Lauderdale area, And you want to reach us to volunteer some time, and to meet some other neat folks, you call this 800 number, which is 1-800-628-6277.
	That's 1-800-628-6277.
	Alright.
	People really like to help out with this kind of thing, so... Well, it's never been done this way, Art.
	This is historic.
	From the time that Robert and I did the show, and you pitched in and helped, we have been creating history.
	And now the journal, to companion Time Magazine, is going to make another little checkmark as to what the Art Bell audience can really do when it gets its dander up.
	Okay.
	Alright, there's so much to get in.
	Next most important item.
	Well, the next most important item is we're coming up on Mars again.
	While, you know, remember that movie?
	Well, a few years ago, while you were sleeping.
	Oh, sure.
	Well, while I was kind of gone, Mike Malin slipped over on us.
	How so?
	On June 27th of this year, he took another picture of Sedonia.
	I didn't see it.
	He sat on it for 12 days.
	Was he trying to get it to hatch, or what?
	One wonders.
	12 days, and then he posted it.
	And we have a thing up on the web, if Mike and Keith have done their usual in the yeoman service which is a new posting on Sedonia
	because not only do we have the June 27th shot but we have an opportunity coming up now this month
	August 21 the spacecraft according to Mark Carlotto and the SPSR guys will pass over Sedonia
	again and it will be the most optimum time until November to get a full face on comparative image
	of the face.
	In other words, like, the face.
	Looking straight down.
	Alright, what happened?
	One thing at a time.
	The one that he sat on for 12 days, I haven't seen it.
	What does it look like?
	It's on the web.
	If you go to EnterpriseMission.com and go to Art Bell and link to Enterprise, you will see the posting by Mike tonight.
	There is a link there actually to the latest Sidoni image which was taken a few weeks ago.
	On June 27th.
	Right, but not everybody has a computer, so... And even for me right now.
	Well, what he did was, he redid what he did a year ago in April.
	Right.
	He took a slice, a tiny slice, across the city, managing to miss the fort.
	I see.
	Managing to miss the interesting rebar of the southern end of the main pyramid.
	The stuff that Tom Van Flanern and I think is most extraordinary.
	Right.
	Remember that stuff that looks like, like, comb?
	Sure.
	Oh, I recall, yes.
	like little bar after bar after bar all over the hall yes all like look like
	piano keys there is a regular and geometric is piano keys
	he managed to make those this time he managed to make everything
	any claims that it's because he had to narrow the with to get the shot of all
	this malarkey and it's all just elder card is
	an old producer friend of mine used to say all right so an opportunity is coming up to get a shot
	comparable to the one where we all saw the face.
	Same angles of sun and photography and so forth.
	Coming up on the 24th.
	On the 21st of August this month.
	About a week and a half away.
	Okay.
	What I would like to do is to bombard Dan Golden and our friends of the network with faxes.
	Remember folks, you know those faxes work.
	They got the first set of pictures a year ago.
	They saved the Dan Miami Circle.
	Let's try now to get a real live shot, full resolution, full grayscale of the face on the 21st, and I have a series of fax numbers if you want to express your opinion.
	All right, we don't want to give out too many now.
	Pick the most important pressure points, otherwise we confuse you.
	Well, obviously you want to send to Dan Golden, who's the administrator of NASA.
	Right.
	Which is 202, area code, 358. 358.
	2-8-1-0.
	2-8-1-0.
	2-0-2-3-5-8-2-8-1-0.
	August 21st, picture of Cydonia.
	Now, because, you know, it's like, if a tree falls in the forest, and CNN is not there to cover it, does it make a sound?
	Right.
	You've gotta copy your faxes.
	Send a duplicate copy to Ted Koppel.
	Now, why Ted Koppel?
	Because Ted Koppel has launched into a very interesting new thing for Nightline.
	For the next several weeks, they're doing Nightline in primetime on Thursday nights, an hour tackling unusual things that never have been seen in primetime television.
	We are pitching the Nightline staff to make Sedonia and Mars and the cover-up and Malin's complicity in all of this one of their new shows.
	So, you want to send a copy of your Golden Facts to Ted Koppel at Nightline, which is 7-9-7-6.
	Okay.
	202-222-7-9-7-6.
	And then just for the heck of it, send one over to CNN in honor of my friend, the late John Alleman, at 404-681-3578.
	There are reporters there, and they will get the drift of the story if enough faxes come in.
	And remember, when we did this in Miami for the Circle, they said all the network crews that were there, and the local crews, That literally tens of thousands of faxes came in, which is what got their attention.
	This is an opportunity we really shouldn't pass up.
	They have been, you know, waffling on this far too long.
	Mail-in taking a picture and then sitting on it for almost two weeks is unconscionable.
	And without the glare of publicity and the glare of your attention, that's what they will probably try to do again.
	So let's try an experiment.
	Let's see if with enough attention we can demand some honesty Because maybe we can get surprised and get the honesty we deserve.
	All right.
	So there are the numbers, folks.
	It is up to you.
	And maybe we'll get lucky, Richard.
	Maybe a lot of people will decide to help out.
	And we'll get it done.
	So Mars is back in the news again.
	And if they take, let's say that we manage to do it, and they take the photograph that you want, Do you expect to see?
	Well, if it's done correctly, which means a proper grayscale, none of this in the middle of a black cat during an eclipse at midnight, and it's the similar lighting to the 1976 shots from Viking, then the comparisons of the features that were arduously rung from that really blurry cat box image should really leap out.
	And people won't have to twist and squint and scowl and turn the TV upside down and all that.
	There should be a really simple point-by-point comparison.
	And it will leap out of the screen.
	We should be able to see that this thing is what it is, which is an architectural, symmetrical, very ancient monument lying where it has no business being.
	Now, in the years since the photographs were taken last April, there has been inside NASA a real Donnybrook of a fight.
	Between those honest folks who are looking at this and seeing what we say is there and are terrified with the political implications, a la Brookings, and the cover-up crowd who are doing everything to keep us from ever knowing the truth.
	And this sitting on photographs for 12 days of Sedonia is just, it's just unconscionable.
	I agree.
	Alright, Richard, hold it right there.
	We're at the bottom of the hour and we'll be right back.
	Richard C. Hoagland is my guest.
	You've got the numbers.
	Whether or not it happens really is in your hand.
	I'm Art Bell from the high desert.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	This is Premier Networks.
	That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
	AMC News at 5 Music playing.
	Music playing.
	We've only got to get right back to where we started from Do you remember that day?
	Surely you did When you first came my way
	I said no one could take your place And if you get hurt
	If you get hurt By the little things I say
	I can put that smile back on your face When it's all
	You're listening to Ark Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from August 10, 1999.
	Once again I'm conducting an experiment with a third generation night vision camera attached
	to a TV camera which is feeding my streaming video.
	And I'll tell you, I saw something arc across the screen in the strangest way a while ago.
	If you see it on streaming video in the lower left hand corner, you're going to see a part
	of a building, that's part of my racquetball court, and you're going to see a wire, that's
	a guy wire for my tower.
	Otherwise, you're going to see the northwest sky, right here in the desert.
	And I'm trying to make adjustments as I go, but that's on streaming video, so I'm sort of I'm getting it adjusted the way I want tonight so that when tomorrow night comes and the next night we'll have an opportunity to give you a view of what's going on in the sky.
	It really is amazing.
	Absolutely amazing.
	They may make a few adjustments in Dallas.
	We'll see.
	We'll get back to Richard C. Hoagland and more tease for what's coming up in depth next week in a moment.
	Right now, this.
	Sound of explosion.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM, from August 10th, 1999.
	Alright, back now to Richard C. Hoagland, back up at home in the mountains at 7,000 feet in New Mexico.
	Richard?
	You know, I thought of starting the night show by playing the Star Trek theme, but I didn't think you were very ready for it, so I... I've got it here, actually.
	Well, you know, it's amazing to be back because some things have changed and some things are exactly the same.
	But it's eerie how this part of the country grows on you.
	I mean, the Southwest is an incredibly rich region for lore and history and, you know, ancient archaeology.
	And in fact, the whole Native American tradition is spearheaded here in terms of what our predecessors did on this continent where we wandered over, which is a neat segue into a surprise.
	You don't know about this yet, okay?
	Every time I do that, folks, you can hear this pause and that look.
	One of the things that we're planning for the fall, and we just got confirmation last night in a conference call that it looks like it's going to work, a group of very, very entrepreneurial, warm, open-spirited people have gotten together and have put up funds so we can actually hold a celebrity concert to help save the circle.
	Really?
	And we're going to have some of the talent That you and I really, really, really love art, alright?
	I can't mention any names yet because contracts have not been signed, but I was instructed tonight to go ahead and let people know that in the coming weeks, up to the 2nd and 3rd of October, which is when this dual night concert will take place, we're going to be giving people information on how they can get tickets, where it's going to be held, who's going to be involved, and how it will help the circle.
	And of course the neat part is that on October 4th begins the trial.
	So our plan here is to raise consciousness, raise funds, have some fun at the same time.
	Sure.
	Plug people in who normally are not involved in helping save ancient archaeology.
	The actual operative term for this is holding sacred ground, which I think is an exquisite idea.
	Robert Goswolf has come up with this, and I think it's dynamite, it's a continuation of what he and I did in Miami.
	And as the weeks progress, we will give you more details, but I can tell you tonight that as of last night, it looks like this is going to fly.
	All right.
	There are just so many things you have to get in.
	I'm trying not to take up your time and just make you go to the next thing.
	Okay.
	Well, one of the things I want to do is to get you and Ramona out of Pahrump and have you actually come to this.
	We can discuss details about that.
	When was the last time you actually were out of there to do something fun?
	Oh, it's been a while, Richard.
	I figured.
	Well, you and me both.
	So let's look forward to this, okay?
	Anyway, the thing I want to talk about next, of course, is overhead.
	You have the webcam up tonight looking at the Perseids.
	Yes.
	It is exquisitely synchronistic and coincidental that tomorrow, across the Atlantic, And England and down across Europe and into the Middle East, the last solar eclipse of this century will take place.
	That's right.
	And there has been so much hype around this eclipse.
	If I felt a little better and I didn't have to come west, I would have actually gone to Cornwall because I have friends there who have cameras and video and they're plugged into the web and there is some rumor Which I think may not be that ill-founded.
	That if they see something, if the sky is clear enough, and as you know, the odds for clear weather in southern England this time of year is about 50-50.
	Right.
	But if the thousands of people who are gathering on the southern part of the island, so that it's actually gently sinking, if they see something, it may be a little more extraordinary than just an eclipse.
	The reason I say this is because some years ago in Mexico, as you know, there was a total eclipse of the sun.
	And people were out looking, you know, Mexico City is at 19.5 degrees, of course.
	And lo and behold, something like 140 or 150 different people with video cameras recorded on that one afternoon for a few moments, a few minutes, a whole cluster of what they called UFOs up around the sun.
	That's right.
	And they started sending them to our mutual friend Jaime Musson, who at that time was the anchor and chief reporter for the Mexican 60 Minutes.
	And that basically is what launched Jaime into looking into, you know, things overhead.
	What's really remarkable is that we don't see any video in this country of any of the networks that are now almost a daily occurrence of unusual, remarkable vehicles flying around, hovering, and flitting here and there in the skies over Mexico, particularly Mexico City.
	It is conceivable, and even such bastions of conservatism as our friend Steve Bassett, believe that it's not beyond the realm of possibility, that in terms of, quote, disclosure, that those guys may be fed up with our guys, and they may stage something over England.
	Now, the reason that I'm even bringing this up tonight is because of something that was pointed out to me a few days ago.
	I've had people emailing and sending me links to look at the current crop of crop circles.
	Oh, they're incredible.
	Have you looked at them carefully?
	Yes, I have, Richard.
	This is the heaviest year for crop circles in the history of them, and the most unreported, and they are complex.
	And they're a tour de force of hyper-dimensional physics.
	The geometry, the cubes, the 3D figures, this is nothing but hyper-dimensional physics over and over and over again.
	So you take that, that somebody is doing something in the crop to send us a message big time, which we are ignoring.
	The establishment is ignoring this, okay?
	Number two, that it's Going on around these ancient stone circles, there are 40,000 analogues to the Miami Circle in England alone.
	These ancient cairns of upright standing stones, whose purpose has been lost in the midst of time, although there's a new book out by Chris Knight and his co-author, David, his name escapes me, and I think that they have gone a long way toward cracking the code And the next time that we do a show I'm going to go into some of the math and some of the exposition that they have figured out that's applicable not only to what's in England but also in Miami.
	Okay, you should know Linda Moulton Howe is presently in Great Britain investigating the crop circles one and two preparing to be in the path of totality.
	Okay.
	And she'll be reporting to us so we do have a reporter there.
	Well we have Enterprise as their own team You know, we have wonderful volunteers and there are people that went over with cameras and digital cameras and video and all that, so, you know, this will be covered.
	If we're right, if we're coming up to a break point, some kind of a dramatic new paradigm, I mean, you may call it, as Bassett does, disclosure, you may call it, you know, the time has come, you can call it anything you want.
	Right.
	This eclipse could well be An interesting time for somebody who wants to break a log jam to do something.
	And there are cultural and technical reasons why England might be the place.
	Now, would I bet the farm on it?
	No, of course not.
	Because you can't.
	I'm just saying that it's just so eerily coincidental that you have all these incredible geometries signifying this hyperdimensional model I keep talking about over and over again.
	And the actual solar system geometry of the various major planets during this eclipse, this so-called Grand Cross that everybody's been talking about?
	Yes.
	It is opportune for something to happen in the physics.
	Well, escaping from the physics and sticking with Nostradamus was something about the King of Terror and all the rest of it, so... Well, that leads us to our old friend Comet Lee.
	Yes.
	When we last talked about Comet Lee, remember, it was going behind the sun.
	It is now to an observatory in Australia, apparently.
	They got some observations, I think, late last week, indicating that it had brightened considerably beyond projection.
	Oh, really?
	Yes.
	There are other intimations out there on the web, people making predictions that there are going to be a whole flotilla of comets showing up during the eclipse.
	Because when you look at the sun, if you have an object in space, you know, between us and the sun or beyond the sun, and it's too close, you of course can't see it from the ground, and you can't even see it from Hubble, so you'd have to wait to an eclipse so you can see a dark sky for that two and a half minutes when something might be visible.
	Right.
	It is conceivable, if Lee is doing what we were talking about the last time I did the show, a couple, three weeks ago, It's conceivable that, having passed the sun, that Lee has now split into multiple components.
	The various satellites that Tom Van Flandern, you know, has been making, you know, very good predictions with?
	Yes.
	If that's true, then all these objects suddenly appearing during this eclipse could certainly qualify as, to the untutored, something in the sky that bodes something strange coming this way.
	And there's been a lot of noise like that on the internet.
	I've been reading it.
	What is interesting to me is if you actually look at the plot of these objects, by the time the Earth physically sails into the beta-torrid stream, which is November 5th and 6th, this comet, Lee, will be like a harbinger moving through Pegasus.
	Remember Pegasus last year?
	Well, comets are harbingers, yes.
	Yes.
	Remarkable morass we got ourselves into with Pegasus?
	Yes.
	Well, that is not stopped.
	That is continuing quietly.
	I, Richard, I'm getting reports, unverified reports, but reports from guests that I've had on previously who I will not name right now, again, of objects that they think they've found that may be headed this way.
	I say no more.
	You've seen the reports?
	Yes.
	Obviously, what we need to do is to keep an eye out for what's going to happen tomorrow morning.
	And obviously, tomorrow night, you know, in one way or another, you're going to be discussing it.
	And it will be on the web.
	We're going to do some links ourselves or on Enterprise.
	Now, let's keep it straight.
	It's really not tomorrow morning my time.
	It's Wednesday, correct?
	Wednesday.
	Wednesday.
	I realize it's already August 11th.
	So it is tomorrow, really.
	It is tomorrow, yes.
	And I believe it will occur Unless I'm wrong, about three o'clock in the morning Pacific Time, totality across that portion of Great Britain.
	Is that about right?
	That's about right.
	So that's just as I'm going off the air?
	Yep.
	Okay.
	Yeah, it starts about dawn for the East Coast.
	In fact, just to the east of Long Island, if you were in a rowboat sitting out there, the sun will rise eclipsed.
	Then the shadow, because of the way the moon moves, will race across the Atlantic at 2,000 miles an hour.
	Remember, the shadow is moving.
	As fast as the moon is moving.
	Right.
	So in about an hour, the whole thing is over from start to finish.
	But in terms of time zones down on the ground, on the Earth, it goes from dawn to sunset.
	Well, if I begin to get reports of something really weird going on, I can always stay on an extra hour.
	I always have that option.
	Well, the thing I would watch for is what do they see in Cornwall?
	Now, NASA has a ship in the Baltic where they're going to be uplinking live video.
	The reason they're in the Baltic and not in England is because the chances of better weather are increased as you go further east.
	Oh, so I can put my Seaband satellite over on the NASA Select channel?
	Mm-hmm.
	Oh!
	There actually is a website listed under NASA Headquarters.
	If you go to Enterprise or go to your site and go to NASA Headquarters, you will see a big flashing eclipse site here, that kind of thing.
	Like we did with the Perseverance.
	We had it showered last year.
	Right.
	So, one way or another, we're going to see something, and it could be something really interesting in addition to an eclipse.
	Just what we need right now.
	Well, we're coming up on a break point, and I don't know what better way to describe it than that.
	If you keep your ear to the ground, there's a lot of stuff rumbling inside that this bubble, this calm, tranquil, We're going to have trillion dollar surpluses from now to the end of God knows when.
	It's about to burst.
	It's about to burst.
	We're being quietly lulled into sleep while the real things are ticking in the background.
	And those of us who have been sharp enough to watch and to listen and to put the dots together, we can be prepared.
	And everybody else will have to catch up.
	Hopefully there'll be time for them to catch up when it's apparent to everybody that life is not exactly the way we've been led to believe.
	Um, well, I'm always prepared for surprises.
	So we will schedule a program next week, which will be particularly important if something does happen.
	We'll have time to do some analysis.
	We'll obviously want to hit again on Mr. Golden and NASA and make sure we try to get some decent images on this opportunity.
	And I want to spend some considerable time discussing Egypt, the fallout from the Fox show, our intensive investigation into the glyphs, those incredible Remarkable glyphs that caused all the controversy.
	Yes.
	And all the attack on me.
	Yes.
	And in part the Stevens business and all that.
	There's some exquisitely substantive new data which we're putting up on the web methodically.
	We have part one and part two up there now.
	People can go see that now.
	They can go there now.
	In fact, they really should in order to prepare themselves for what they're going to hear next week.
	And in the next day or so we'll have part three and four.
	Alright.
	We have learned some pretty amazing things.
	And we're going to try to connect a lot of dots when we have the time.
	Alright, good.
	So, listen folks, if you've got a computer working, go to a library and get to a computer.
	Go to my website, go down to Richard C. Oglen's name, or the Enterprise Mission link, and go over and read about what's going on.
	The way the whole thing came down in Egypt, it'll give you a little head start on what's going to happen next week.
	Anything else you want to get on?
	Well, it's just kind of nice to be back.
	Really, you know, I didn't want to spend a lot of time going over that, but I got to say that, you know, there's no place like home, folks.
	You bet.
	And listen, I want to caution everybody.
	Both Richard and I have referred to a lot of messaging that's going on on the Internet right now about what may or may not be happening.
	So I caution you, we have not reported anything as fact tonight.
	Just what we're hearing.
	And it's going to be an interesting few days, to say the least, huh, Richard?
	I would think that's a fair statement, yes.
	So, it's great to have you back.
	Very quickly, give out Dan Golden's number again.
	Okay, Dan Golden's number.
	If you want to get straight pictures of Sidonio, let's give it one good last college try.
	Sure.
	202-358-7000.
	2-8-1-0.
	A public fax machine.
	That's a public fax machine in his office.
	2-0-2-3-5-8-2-8-1-0.
	Yep.
	And Ted Koppel?
	ABC Nightline, 2-0-2-2-2-2-7-9-7-6.
	All right.
	There you have it.
	And in the meantime, it's going to be wild times ahead, Richard.
	Take care, my friend.
	Glad you're well at 7,000 feet.
	That says good stuff.
	I feel fantastic.
	Be around for a while.
	Richard, thanks.
	Talk to you next week.
	Okay, Art.
	Take care, my friends.
	All right, once again, what we alluded to with regard to the reports on the Internet is just that, unsubstantiated reports, but something for you to be aware of.
	We'll be right back.
	The trip back in time continues, with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
	More somewhere in time coming up.
	I have been only half of what I am.
	It's all clear to me now.
	My heart is on fire.
	My soul's like a wheel that's turning.
	My love is alive.
	My love is undying.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	www.LRCgenerator.com Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
	To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
	To have all these things in our memories home.
	And they use them to cover us so far!
	Yeah!
	Why, why was he sold?
	To this place, on this trip?
	This trip just won't be I'll take a free ride
	Just for me?
	Why, take a free ride?
	Check the price of my seat It's not free
	I've worked in the city for years Worked so hard just doing my beers
	Had to end my life before I read But by now I know I should have cried
	I'm a man of faith I'm a man of faith
	Faith, faith Premier Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from August 10th, 1999.
	Good morning everybody.
	In a moment, John A. Nolan.
	He is a retired intelligence officer, military intelligence officer and he's written a book called Confidential.
	Uncover your competitor's top business secrets legally and quickly, and protect your own.
	It should be an interesting program.
	A couple of announcements.
	One, I have a kind of an experiment going on tonight, and I would like your feedback.
	The precedes a meteor shower is going to begin tomorrow night.
	and continue over the next couple of days and so I've got a third-generation night vision camera hooked up to a TV camera hooked up to my streaming video and it's it's really a shame because about 20 minutes before airtime something really weird cut a circle across the northwest sky and I saw it perfectly in here and of course that was before we began the streaming video about 20 minutes And it really irks me.
	In the lower left-hand corner of the photograph, you'll see just the corner of the roof of my racquetball court, and you'll see a kind of a horizontal line going down.
	That's a guy wire from my tower.
	But otherwise, what you're looking at is a picture of the northwest sky.
	And I may change the angle at the half-hour point here.
	I'm going to keep this up for about another hour, and then we'll go back to the norm.
	But I wanted to bring up This tonight, to see if it was going to work okay, so when the meteor shower is happening, you'll be able to get a look at the desert sky.
	So I'm wondering if you're seeing that okay or not.
	You're listening to ArkBell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from August 10th, 1999.
	Music.
	Alright, here we go.
	What an experience you are about to have, John A. Nolan III.
	He's Chairman and Managing Director of Phoenix Consulting Group, Inc.
	Serves as the Director of the Commercial Services Practice.
	Further, he is periodically engaged on behalf of the Federal Intelligence Community through PCG's Federal Services Practice.
	That's a hell of a paragraph.
	I wonder what all that means.
	Mr. Nolan is a retired military intelligence officer whose 22-year career was almost equally divided between area intelligence and counterintelligence assignments, both domestic as well as international.
	Upon retirement in 1988, if you ever do retire from something like this, he joined an international management consulting firm where he provided a range of Specialized Services and relocated to Huntsville, Alabama in late 1989 to manage a special intelligence project on behalf of the U.S.
	government.
	You know, I'm reading this and I'm thinking, what the hell does all this mean?
	In 1991, he co-founded Phoenix Consulting Group along with four other retired or former intelligence officers A firm which has now grown to 47 professionals in four offices around the U.S.
	and with associates in most major countries.
	The preponderance of the firm's work is in the commercial arena in providing business intel, both collection and analysis, as well as corporate counterintelligence services to American firms.
	As an extension of this practice, A considerable part of the business base provides organizational development and training in intelligence crafts for firms which are dedicating themselves to the application of intelligence principles for competitive advantage.
	Now, to me that boils down to spying on your competitor.
	John, welcome to the program.
	Good morning, Art.
	That's a very interesting resume.
	Uh, it sounds like it was written by somebody who drew black lines through the rest of it, you know?
	This part you couldn't talk about.
	You did this for intelligence, counterintelligence, and this and that, but it never really quite exactly really says, but I suppose you can't say, can you?
	Exactly what you did.
	Is that about right?
	That's about right.
	What it really comes down to, in a very short phrase now, is that companies hire us to find out what their competition is going to do before they do it, so that they can gain some kind of advantage.
	I remember when the Cold War ended that there was some talk about the CIA redirecting their efforts toward business espionage.
	In other words, For example, spying on the Japanese or something or another, and then turning that information over to American industry.
	Do you recall that?
	Oh, absolutely.
	As a matter of fact, I remember specifically that Bob Gates, who was the Director of Central Intelligence at the time, did a number of things to include going out into the field and asking people, how do you folks feel about it?
	Because you're going to be at the point of the spear.
	One particular guy, he quoted in his testimony to the House on this matter, and he said that nobody seems to mind dying on behalf of their country, but nobody's willing to go to jail on behalf of General Motors.
	And that pretty much sums up the views of the operational side of the intelligence community with regard to helping American businesses.
	So they didn't like it?
	No.
	No, I understand that point of view, as a matter of fact.
	Why go to jail for somebody's commercial advantage here?
	No, that's true.
	Sure, and if you're doing 15 years in a Turkish prison with some guy who is 6 foot 8 and hasn't seen his wife in 5 years, and the product that you were attempting to gather information about is no longer on the shelves, how does that make you feel?
	Well, you're probably a really angry person at that point.
	I would think.
	So you were in intelligence, military intelligence, for how long altogether, really?
	Twenty-two years.
	Twenty-two years.
	1966 to 1988.
	You come recommended by somebody I am very close to, Colonel John Alexander, who is a friend of yours?
	Yes, indeed.
	As a matter of fact, he and I both served in the same organization in the Western Delta Uh, at different times, but at the same A-Team.
	Uh-huh.
	He was the commander of Boss Y. I noted earlier that both of you have a sort of similar cadence and sound to your voice, and I wonder if that is a product of the work you did.
	Uh, that may be the case.
	I frankly don't know.
	It may just be that he is such a wonderful orator, and I've just chameleon-like adapted myself to his pattern.
	I don't know that to be true.
	But I take that as a compliment, because I esteem him pretty highly.
	John says, I've known him for many years.
	John was one of the best agents we have ever had.
	Then he suggests that I ask you about something, and you can tell me to climb a tree if you wish.
	But I'm going to ask anyway.
	Something about a Soviet automobile in Washington.
	uh... something you're able to talk about or not uh...
	uh...
	uh...
	yes i'd really prefer uh... not to uh... speak uh... specifically
	about uh...
	that having been a uh... soviet uh... vehicle Okay, let's erase that.
	Let's say some foreign sourced automobile in Washington.
	Well, let's just suggest that sometimes it's necessary to ensure that you know where your adversaries are all the time.
	Right.
	And it's important to understand who is going where and when they're going there.
	Sometimes there are vehicles that you need to surveil.
	More aggressively than you otherwise would.
	I think that John is making reference to something that he learned about and I believe has been written about.
	It involves the removal of a car from its rightful ownership and replacement with another one for a brief period of time.
	You mean a switch?
	Uh, yeah, you could call it that.
	Okay.
	Uh, sufficiently long enough for people to, uh, to ensure that wherever that vehicle went, it, uh, it carried with it, uh, the means whereby it could be tracked wherever it went.
	Almost a full Hollywood soundstage.
	Almost.
	Pretty neat.
	Uh, you know, when you've got lots of resources.
	Yes.
	And, uh, you can do a lot of things.
	Well, look, uh, fair is fair.
	As I recall, The embassy that we spent an awful lot of money trying to build in Moscow, or wherever it was it was built, I forget.
	In Moscow.
	In Moscow.
	It was so full of bugs they had to tear the damn thing down, or tear it apart.
	Well, you know, that's an interesting story.
	I have a friend who was brought in at about that same time that they discovered those things.
	And what they were going to do, the initial group of people and wonderful decision makers, Well, let's just tear the damn thing down, raise it to the ground, and start all over again.
	And they looked at what the problem had been, and they said that the ultimate issue was that things were being brought in from outside the Soviet Union, manufactured in the West, and then trucked in, or flown in, or what have you.
	And the on-the-site Russian manager who was responsible for putting it all together, Explain the slowdown in the construction by saying it's because of things coming through the borders and the amount of time it takes.
	If you could build many of those things here in the Soviet Union, then we'd be able to get your building done on time.
	So he violated, I mean the American manager there, Agreed to that and violated the responsibilities that he had and allowed them to then start bringing in concrete slabs and whatnot that had been already pre-equipped with listening devices.
	So they were going to raise the whole thing and turn it all back over to the Russians.
	Then this friend of mine happened to have been there listening to this with shock.
	He started thinking like an intelligence officer thinks, and he said, time out!
	Why give all that back?
	Let's take it all apart and ship it all to the United States.
	Take it all apart, and then that way we'll be able to see exactly what their state-of-the-art listening equipment is.
	Oh, that's true.
	And so that's what they wound up doing.
	So they did that?
	Yeah!
	Which is a far greater thing than to sit around, contemplate your navalman, wring your hands, And whine and snivel about how bad the Russians were in building this building.
	I mean, they're taking advantage of an opportunity that virtually any responsible national government is going to take when it has a definable national interest.
	All right.
	Does that sound harsh?
	Um, no.
	No.
	It's reality.
	Realpolitik, I guess.
	I went to, about three years ago, I went to Russia.
	And I went to Moscow and I had lunch in the Kremlin.
	Right inside the Kremlin.
	It was really neat.
	But you know what I noticed when I was there, John, was that I was being watched every single second.
	Every tour had a person with it that was government-affiliated.
	And even though there have been many changes, sort of on the surface, in Russia, there were a lot of things.
	For example, we were on a tour and we had one fellow who was Sightless, who didn't have sight, and he had a video camera with him, and he was using the video camera not to capture pictures, but to capture audio, you know, because of the length of a videotape, and he was out wandering around Moscow, and happened to be, um, had his camera on near a factory, and this was a factory where people were showing badges as they went in, and they arrested him, and they arrested his mother,
	Well, I'd have to answer you in two ways.
	hours and hours we found that
	you know that there was not another as i guess i'm asking you
	is the cold war really
	well i'd have to answer you in two ways uh... the first is that the xenophobia and the suspicion that is so
	ingrained in the russian mind is not something that is a creature of the
	uh... the soviet state but rather of the russian states and you saw that same
	fear of the outside that fear and suspicion of foreigners uh...
	back uh... two hundred years so it's not a matter of it just because the wall was come
	down the bad guys are supposedly not in charge anymore
	that they're going to do away with that Second piece of it is that, of course, I can understand why they would be taking, uh, Umbridge is somebody taking pictures of badges.
	Because, of course, it's a very easy trick to replicate a badge, put it on, and walk through the turnstile and gain access to whatever it is.
	And that's an old, uh, that's an old counterintelligence plan.
	Sure, but this was on an open Moscow street.
	Yeah.
	The other part is that they might very well have wanted to make a statement to whatever group you were associated with on that tour.
	I mean, all they've got to do is make one person miserable and everybody else becomes paranoid, and then they don't do anything.
	I had a video camera with me inside.
	I had a video camera with me when I went inside the Russian Armory, which is an incredible place.
	it probably pay off their entire national debt if they began so what's in
	that armor i was taking some uh... video and
	this big bone gigantic russian gorilla of a woman came up to me
	drew her finger across her throat like turn it off sucker or your you're going to be
	dead meat and like i turned it off
	so she must have liked you hahahaha shift as she definitely uh... affected me
	but i i i mean i guess the question is the russians still have atomic weapons
	gazillions of them they still have submarines they still have
	lots of stuff Is there reason still to be concerned, or is the concern now far less?
	Well, I think that the issue is, what is their focus?
	I don't know that their focus is necessarily on the same kinds of things that they have been Uh, concerned with previously.
	They have been previously concerned with military and political supremacy and superiority.
	Now, uh, the issue, I think, is economic stability and viability, and ultimately bringing to bear their economic resources.
	And they're really vast economic resources, if they can get at them.
	If they can get at them.
	Right.
	That's exactly right.
	Alright, we're at the bottom of the hour.
	Hold on, John.
	We'll be right back.
	A lot of oil there if you could get to it, but they don't let anybody get to it.
	We're going to break here at the bottom of the hour.
	John Nolan is my guest.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	This is Premier Networks.
	That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
	Thanks for watching.
	We've been looking like the Queen and the sailors dreaming Listen to the wind blow, watch the sun rise
	Run in the shadows, damn your love, damn your lies.
	Now, we take you back to the past on Arkbell Somewhere in Time.
	Good morning, everybody.
	I'm Art Bell.
	My guest is John Nolan.
	He is an ex, if you ever are an ex, military intelligence officer.
	And we are going to shortly talk about the application to the civilian sector, and there is a big application in the civilian sector.
	He's written a book called Confidential, Uncover Your Competitor's Top Business Secrets Legally and Quickly.
	And protect your own.
	Listen, I am conducting an experiment right now with our streaming video, and what I have now done is to swing the camera around for about the next half hour to a more northern sky, from the northwest to a more northern sky, and you will see, it's pitch black out there, but you will see my tower, my radio tower, in the photograph.
	And then, of course, the stars behind, so the radio tower will give you some form of, or some sort of reference for what you're seeing.
	And you might let me know how it's coming out on your monitor.
	But what you're seeing out there is dead black, I mean, it is totally black out there.
	And it should be pretty interesting, so it's experiment time tonight.
	You might let me know whether it looks okay.
	I'll keep it up for a half hour, then we'll go back to in-studio pictures, and tomorrow night When the meteor shower begins, we'll try and focus on that part of the sky that is relevant.
	I hope it's somewhere between northeast, north, and northwest.
	Otherwise, I'm going to have to move a camera and that'll be a big pain in the neck.
	So, with all of that said, we'll get back to John Nolan.
	In one moment, stay right where you are.
	Sound of explosion.
	Somewhere in time with Art Bell continues courtesy of Premier Networks.
	Music.
	Alright, I'm probably going to venture into areas where I'm sure that John will not want to go, and John, when I do, you can tell me to get stuffed, alright?
	But I've got to ask the questions.
	There is a Matt Drudge report out in the last few days, John, that indicates that Osama Bin Laden, the terrorist, may have up to 20 briefcase, suitcase-type nuclear devices from the Russians.
	You think that could be true?
	I think it's absolutely possible.
	They've not had a good control of their tactical, nor very good Command and control of their strategic nuclear forces.
	We also know that the Spetsnaz guys, the Soviet version of our special forces, have always had, not always, but for the past decades, at least two, have all been equipped with suitcase-sized nuclear devices for the express purpose of being able to carry them into various countries and use them For a variety of nefarious purposes.
	It's a heck of a lot more difficult to intercept them, if they're given that mission, than it is to intercept an intercontinental ballistic missile.
	Would we know, if somebody got into the country, God knows we've got porous borders, would we know if a weapon of that sort had crossed our borders?
	Probably not.
	Although I do know that there are all kinds of people dealing with potential doomsday situations such as those.
	Localized doomsday, if you will.
	Well, I mean, I know that we've got some sort of task force that reacts whenever there might be a nuclear anything, anywhere, rather immediately.
	But would there be, I guess I'm asking, would there be a sufficient way for whoever brought it across to keep it from being detected?
	And your answer is yes.
	My answer would be yes, simply because our borders are so large, so unprotected, in many cases so remote, it's, as you said, quite porous.
	No question about it.
	And then, with the amount of freedom that we enjoy as we move across the United States, it's not difficult for someone, once they've come in, to travel by bus, or by train, or by whatever mode of transportation they wanted to
	except of course one of the airlines conveyed subject your your uh... your luggage to a lot more scrutiny
	search uh... you know that's not going to happen
	in any of the other modes of transportation which will automatically
	allow you the opportunity to be did in the middle of a uh... major metropolitan area in a
	fairly uh...
	yeah i would i would assume that if uh... a mexican national
	or for that matter even a canadian national wants to come into the country
	undetected uh... probably
	seven or eight times out of ten they're gonna make it
	Mm-hmm.
	Yep.
	So a professional wanting to come in undetected would probably have better odds than that.
	I would submit to you that that's a very likely possibility, but then again at the same time, there needs to be somebody who has a roguish enough behavior, and that's one of the things that we always counted on was a certain air of discipline.
	As a matter of fact, really, you were in that field.
	In other words, you were psychologically profiling foreign leaders and other intelligence targets.
	Yes.
	Indeed.
	As a matter of fact, it's sort of like Patton.
	Patton said that he had studied the enemy all his life.
	He'd read the memoirs of his generals and his leaders.
	He'd even read his philosophers and listened to his music, and he studied in detail the account of every damned one of his battles.
	You know exactly how he'd react under any set of circumstances, and he hasn't got the slightest idea of when Patton was going to whip the hell out of him.
	And that's the whole nature of understanding the personality and psychological makeup of the guy on the other side of the equation.
	And we now do that, of course, in business.
	But if you're asking about Bin Laden, it's the kind of thing that you really need to understand that adversary before you can ever try and take any countermeasures.
	If he would be willing to bomb the barracks that he did in Saudi Arabia, then if he had access to a suitcase nuke, the question would be, if you were assessing whether he had the intention to use it, what would you be likely to say?
	Would he use it if he had the intention and the capability?
	Yeah.
	I would think that it would be foolish of us to discount the possibility.
	At the same time, we had to consider that Saddam Hussein could use exactly the same methodology earlier in this decade for still non-offensive purposes, and he still may.
	It's a heck of a lot cheaper than costing you 100,000 casualties, if you care about those kinds of things.
	Arguably, Saddam Hussein doesn't care very much about those kinds of things.
	Well, yeah, I mean, look, if an American city went up, I have no idea even what we would do, how we would react, how we could react.
	We would, I'm sure, investigate, but would we ever be sure who it was?
	How could we retaliate?
	What could we do?
	Where is our defense for this kind of thing?
	It's pretty scary in a lot of ways.
	When the Cold War was going on, everybody knew who the players pretty much were, and everybody was held in check by the terror.
	Now we have individuals acquiring weapons of terror who are not held in check the way they once were.
	That's true.
	We've become a much less stable world.
	of the conditions of bipolarity when it used to be the United States against the Soviet Union, and all the rest of them fell in pretty handily on one side of the equation or the other, and there was a clear set of leaders.
	Now, in these conditions of multipolarity with many different sources of potential panic and terrorism and black rain, that you're going to have to look all the more closely at who your adversaries are.
	And unfortunately, the current administration doesn't seem to think that that's a plausible way of looking at the world.
	It's a lot easier to hug all the trees and to hug all of the people around those trees and call them all your friends.
	Well, Jimmy Carter pretty well dismantled, effectively, a lot of our intelligence operations and really slashed and burned his way through them.
	Then they were sort of revived during the Reagan administration.
	Exactly.
	And now we're kind of back to the Carter days with regard to intelligence, aren't we?
	Well, you know, it's really interesting.
	At the top you asked about whether or not the agency was considering the possibility of conducting operations on behalf of American businesses.
	Yes.
	One of the leading proponents of that was Stansfield Turner.
	Who was Jimmy Carter's classmate at the Naval Academy and then director of CIA.
	Correct.
	Who presided over that dismantling of the intelligence, the human side of the intelligence community.
	That is, the human source side of intelligence collection activities.
	Preferring, of course, the technological collection platforms.
	And he's the one who was the The primary floater of the trial balloons that the Clinton administration was setting up in the early days of its first term, to have CIA do those kinds of things.
	And at the same time, there was a drawdown and a general derogation, a general dismissal of the need for human intelligence in the Clinton administration, preferring instead to listen to their own voices.
	And now, however, It's almost as if it's the beginning days of the Reagan administration again.
	The agency is out doing a far more aggressive job of recruiting human case officers.
	Assets?
	Yes, intelligence professionals who can then go out and find the people who know what's happening.
	In other countries, in terrorist camps, you name it, wherever, we need to have information.
	In the interest of the national community.
	Now, that's really interesting.
	And at the same time, the people who are there are leaving because they're so burdened with... It's almost like the way that pilots are fleeing the Air Force and the Navy in favor of American Airlines.
	Well, what accounts for the pendulum swinging back while Clinton is still there?
	I think that it's happening in spite of him.
	rather than because of him.
	It may have been that there were some things, and I would not ever claim to know everything
	about the inner machinations of the system.
	It may very well have been that he got such a terrible scare that he's changed the focus
	and given additional latitude to the development of the intelligence community.
	You mean like the liberal who got mugged?
	Becomes a conservative.
	That's exactly right.
	Ethical definition of a conservative is the one who got mugged last night.
	That's right.
	You know, there were lots of places that Mr. Clinton has learned some lessons.
	And I think that the absence of the ticker tape parades for anybody who You recently participated in the issue in Kosovo.
	They fired Clark, effectively.
	Not openly, but he's certainly not being treated as the great hero that Schwarzkopf and others were.
	There were wholesale failures throughout the system.
	for several years and it may very well have been that at some point somebody
	got to mr clinton said you know we will screw the perch pretty badly here and let's
	uh... let's stop doing this
	and we need to have better eyes and ears and let's build this back up a little
	again but we don't have to advertise that we screwed the pooch all we have to
	do is go out and tell people
	add to your staff there were also recent reports of
	massive amounts of information walking out of los alamos another
	uh... national secure high national security uh... areas to the chinese and
	Any comment on that?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Yes, the losses were considerable.
	All you've got to do is read the Christopher Cox report, as I'm sure Art, you've already done.
	Yes.
	And you can gain pretty clear insights into that.
	The issue, of course, is that, sadly, that really dwarfs The amount of loss that American businesses suffer at the hands of the literally thousands of companies that exist in the United States solely for the purpose of serving as covers for action or covers, that is to say, front organizations on behalf of the People's Liberation Army, which of course owns virtually every business in the People's Republic of China.
	Which, by the way, there's another place where I went.
	I went to China.
	And went up into Canton and on up into China.
	What's really... This was a couple of years ago and it scared the... Jesus!
	God, it scared me!
	I went up into the so-called economic area first, Shenzhen, and I have never, in all my life, and of course I wasn't around during the mobilization for World War II, the industrial mobilization we went through, Seeing the old clips of it reminded me of what was going on there then.
	And it scared me.
	I mean, there were thousands and thousands of just thousands of trucks and commerce and factories.
	We went past 40 miles of nothing but factories on both sides under construction.
	And a good friend of mine, Bob Crane, just went back and he said, everything that was being worked on then is finished now.
	So if you were scared then, You ought to see it now.
	They're going to be, within the next decade, an industrial nightmare for us, aren't they?
	Yes, and that's absolutely true.
	If there's anything that the Chinese have done extraordinarily well, it's been to divert, copy, obtain, encourage, or otherwise transfer American and other Western technologies for the express purpose of building their economic infrastructure to guarantee that they will be able to achieve that regional, and then later, worldly hegemony that the Chinese have always been after.
	If they look at a long-range plan, they're not looking at it like an American corporate executive who is concerned with quarterly earnings and reports, what they're interested in.
	Is what will be on the horizon 10 years, 20 years, 50 years from now, 100 years from now.
	They can understand the long view.
	We don't have the art of the long view, no pun intended.
	But we just don't have that in American society today.
	And so we tend not to be able to recognize it.
	But taking those snapshots, as you've just provided us, is an excellent way of understanding that the Chinese have used our openness, if you will, and our desires to sell our products in other parts of the world to include selling the plants that make those products.
	Well, how really bad a position are we in?
	For example, I'm into electronics, have been since I was a youngster, and I used to build things, John, but in America today, You can't build things anymore.
	Our young people are no longer able to go down and buy pieces and parts and electronics and capacitors and resistors and transistors.
	I mean, there are rare places where you can get them, but as a general rule, you can't.
	And what you do is you buy completed products that come from Japan or China or Korea or Taiwan or wherever it is.
	You buy completed products.
	We don't make things anymore.
	We import them.
	True.
	And what they're making is on the platforms that we have provided them.
	Oh, that's right.
	And the extent to which export controls are ever placed on anything are merely gone around by the intelligence process that is part and parcel of the Chinese understanding That economic security is a critical element of national security.
	A concept that is very difficult in the United States for people to grasp.
	They do understand that very well over there.
	What I have never been too clear on is they're undergoing certainly an economic revolution right now.
	Most people say that a social revolution will follow fairly closely on the heels of an economic revolution.
	But the Chinese seem to have that more or less under control.
	Their communist political system is still firmly in place, and yet they're proceeding economically almost as a full capitalist state.
	It's really weird.
	Well, as far as I can detect, and from my poor humble view of the world, the Chinese probably learned a great deal from Mr. Gorbachev's experience.
	You know, he tried to turn a socialist slant capitalist Or a socialist-slant communist system into a capitalistic system without all of the economic infrastructure in place, and yet with all of the freedoms that democracies require.
	And unfortunately, he put the political and social horse behind the cart that is the economic cart that it should have been dragging.
	In the Chinese case, what they've essentially done is they've recognized that they have to have all of the economic reforms and all of the economic power in place first, or else the people who are striving for openness, freedom, and all of that, which means freedom and openness and access to many creature comforts, they're not going to be able to get that unless the infrastructure is there.
	Gorbachev didn't have the infrastructure.
	The Chinese are going to make dang sure that the infrastructure is there.
	Before they allow any economic or social, or I'm sorry, any political or social changes to occur.
	Well, they're certainly doing that.
	All right, John.
	Hold on.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	Pretty good break here for you.
	We'll be right back and we'll discuss your book, Confidential.
	Uncover your competitor's top business secrets legally and quickly and protect your own.
	The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
	More somewhere in time coming up.
	I don't you.
	so so
	so so
	so you are listening to art bell somewhere in time
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from August 10th, 1999.
	Alright, I'm told that the northeast part of the sky is where I want to be for the meteor shower that we're going to monitor with live streaming video.
	I'm looking right now at the north to slightly east of north sky.
	And we'll move it around to the northeast when we do the experiment.
	In the next half hour, this next half hour, I will bring it back in studio again so you can see what's going on.
	What you're seeing right now is a shot in absolute darkness of my radio tower.
	It's a third generation night vision scope hooked up to a TV camera and then sent to you on streaming videos.
	Remarkable.
	My guest is an ex-spy, John Nolan.
	He would use the term military intelligence officer.
	I think probably out here we'd say spy.
	We'll get back to him shortly.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from August 10th, 1999.
	Alright, welcome to the show.
	Once again, here is John Nolan.
	John, welcome back.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	John, in the agency, do they use the word spy?
	Typically not.
	I didn't think so.
	They'll use things like case officer to describe those of us who Go out and convince other people to take $50 a month and the undying gratitude of the American people to betray their countries.
	So that would be a case officer.
	An agent or a source would be the type of person that you would recruit from that other country to help achieve our national names.
	So there are professional intelligence officers on one hand who really Don't enjoy being called spies.
	And the people who are the people whom you recruit... They're the spies, really?
	They are the real spies, yes, indeed.
	We're people who help them do what it is they need to do by way of giving them training and those kinds of things, which of course is partly why we sat down and wrote the book Confidential.
	Was to allow other people to gain access to those same kinds of skills that we would.
	All right, you've taken your military experience, obviously.
	Obviously.
	And converted it to the civilian sector.
	Just the title of your book alone really says it all, Confidential.
	Uncover your competitor's top business secrets legally and quickly and protect your own.
	All right, there's a lot of business people out there listening this morning.
	And I'm sure they would like to know.
	Obviously, they can buy your book.
	They can go to my website and hop across to Amazon.com and buy the book.
	And by the way, thank you for the autographed copy.
	Oh, you're welcome.
	They can also, no doubt, go to their local bookstore.
	Is it presently available nationwide?
	Yes, in effect.
	I've been in several borders and barns and nobles here, up and down the East Coast, during this most recent tour.
	and uh... they've had them in the quite a few of the places uh... pretty weird
	and i i i i've written a few books to him you go to a story called around you look around who there's
	a book in to sort of go well
	at the at the at the well the best part of it was uh...
	being in new york a couple weeks ago walking down fifth avenue walking past the
	barnes and noble and there was and there were about eighteen of them all
	stacked up in a window display of the shit
	that they must be serious about this book They must be.
	You tend to be your own harshest and worst critic.
	Oh, I know.
	You don't expect to see things like that, and when you do, it's kind of crazy.
	And for people such as myself, my family, it gives me all kinds of grief for having spent so many years avoiding even family cameras, and now I talk on the Art Bell Show.
	Yes, yes, there you are.
	It's kind of the yin and the yang.
	I mean, you know, on CNBC financial stuff at noon on one day and the next, and later on that same day talking Art Bell.
	Alright, let us then begin to look at the business community a little bit and how you take what you have done and apply it to the civilian sector.
	How do you do that?
	Give me an example of somebody who might be in business who could utilize your techniques and what they would be.
	Okay, say for example you're a manufacturer and you've got a competitor.
	Who has better products than you do, gets them out on time at a better price point, and you see that their rejection rates or their return rates are much lower than yours, and they're much more profitable.
	You're not aware of exactly how they do that, and so you want to learn what gives them that advantage so that you can reduce that advantage somehow.
	Or, if they are somebody who has been consistently beating you to market.
	I mean, for the intelligence professionals, we have a phrase that is, there's no such thing as a coincidence.
	You see the guy in the airport in Madrid one day, and you see him again in Orly the next day, and you see him in Frankfurt the next day, and I will not be able to see him the day in Warsaw.
	I would be dead by then.
	The same thing happens if you're If your competitor is always beating you to market, there's no such thing as a coincidence.
	Typically, it's because he's better and generally better informed about you.
	What it means is that he is probably capitalizing on a process that allows him to A, identify what it is that he needs.
	B, send those requirements to the people who can go out and get the information.
	See, have them report it back and analyze it and put it into an actionable form.
	That is something you can take action upon.
	Because there's no sense in going out and saying, tell me everything about Company X. That doesn't really give you any advantage.
	Tell me when Company X is coming out with a new product, at what price point, in what quantities, and through which distribution system or channel.
	Then that's going to give you an opportunity to perhaps build your own uh... product similar product order to
	either counter or perhaps even achieve uh... the first market advantage that uh... your competitor
	may otherwise enjoy
	how would you argue to the business person out there
	you know i mean the old american ethic of uh...
	i don't know where we were entrepreneurs and i guess some would make an
	argument that what you're discussing right now is not ethical
	uh...
	moon say that uh... john d rockefeller was a fairly successful
	entrepreneur One of the things that he felt was a necessary ingredient was that next to knowing everything about your own business, the next best thing is knowing all about the other guy's business.
	And he was fairly successful doing that.
	If you've got stockholders, say for example your IBM, and IBM of course had a body blow shock when their whole world got turned around by two guys hanging out in Steve Jobs' mother's garage in Cupertino, California, huh?
	Yep.
	I mean they weren't paying attention to their knitting and all of a sudden there was such a thing as a personal computer.
	Now, IBM has one of the better business intelligence organizations in the world.
	Do they?
	And they're not looking just at their big competitors, because they know them fairly well, but they're also looking at all the smaller companies.
	Everything that's coming up from below?
	Sure, because that's where their real threats are.
	I mean, they're watching the other guys all the time, of course, but they're also looking for new technologies that are going to change the face of their business, and arguably, Apple changed the face of American business with the introduction of the personal computer.
	Not that they have primacy now, but they certainly had a major impact.
	And could IBM have done some other things?
	If IBM had paid a little bit more attention to Bill Gates, we wouldn't know who Bill Gates was.
	As an example.
	When you get down, though, to the nitty gritty of how this Is actually done?
	Yeah.
	Then you're really talking about all the same things that you're talking about with regard to the old Soviet Union or whatever current level of military intelligence gathering we're doing.
	In other words... Certainly.
	You're finding people who know what's going on and then finding the ways in which you can cause them to tell you what it is that you need to have them give you.
	If a company would say, go out and get me everything about this particular issue, and I don't care how you get it, then the chances are that you're going to step over certainly some ethical boundaries as well as some legal boundaries.
	We operate, as I said earlier, we're not interested in going to jail for any company, certainly not, but we know where the Legal guidelines take us.
	We know where we're not going to do something illegal.
	We're not going to go out and bribe somebody.
	We're not going to go out and pay somebody for the secrets to the kingdom.
	But we are going to very assiduously, piece by piece by piece, gather up that information that may very well represent that secret that somebody else May not wish to have out in the marketplace.
	And we would do that by identifying all of those places where information exists.
	All those information nodes.
	For example, in the old days we might go out and try and recruit somebody who we might tempt with a lot of money.
	And he or she sits near a safe that contains all of the secret information and so we give them a Minox And when nobody else is looking, they take out the file, and they photograph everything, and then they leave that cassette of film in a dead drop somewhere, and somebody comes along, services it, takes it back, reads what's on the film, and then we've got the secrets.
	Okay?
	That's not something that we would do.
	However, if it's a matter of knowing that there are five vendors who all visit a company's Manufacturing facility and get tours, then we'll darn sure go find some of the representatives from those vendor companies and we'll start talking to them about what it is that they've learned.
	We'll for sure talk to people who used to work at that company.
	We'll for sure talk to people who work there now, if we need to, and employ a variety of techniques.
	Indeed, the whole first third of the of the book, Confidential, speaks to the nature of elicitation
	as opposed to interviewing or interrogating people in order to get them to give you
	information without necessarily making them suspicious or uncooperative or what have you.
	In a little while, if some people in your audience would like to get a piece of paper
	and a pencil, we'll give a list of maybe a dozen of those kinds of things that are taken
	straight out of the book that speak to the kinds of techniques that we would use.
	And, of course, it's useful for people to be aware of those things so that if they encounter them the next time that an IRS agent is auditing, it might be useful for them to be aware of those kinds of things.
	Well, what about intelligence gathering?
	For example, using audio bugs, using various technological ways to gather intelligence about what's being done, what your competitor is doing, and so forth.
	What's legal and what's not?
	Well, that's clearly illegal.
	Putting a listening device in somebody's office, broadcasting from one place to another for the purpose of intercepting proprietary and sensitive conversations is clearly illegal.
	That doesn't mean that people don't do it.
	As a matter of fact, a fellow whom we use for many of our protection projects, that is when a company hires us to find out what their competition is doing, very often they also ask us to make sure that their competitors can't do it to them.
	And sometimes we call upon this particular group of folks headed by Kevin Murray up in New Jersey, who bring a quarter of a million dollars worth of equipment into a facility to see whether or not somebody's bugging their facility.
	And not too long ago, Kevin and his guys were twisting knobs at a place in the middle of the United States, and they suddenly heard a broadcast.
	Of somebody talking on a channel that they shouldn't have been talking on.
	And so the more they researched it, there inside that facility, it was a large manufacturing facility, they learned that they were hosting a delegation from a certain Asian country.
	And this broadcast was in the language of that certain Asian country.
	And it turned out that what they were doing was they were forbidden to bring in cameras and other devices such as that.
	So they knew that and as they were going through what it turned out was that two of the people on this tour group were broadcasting from their body mics The things that they were reading on desks, the layout of the plant, and etc.
	Holy smokes!
	All that kind of stuff to the bus that was out in the parking lot, which was the listening station for the microphones.
	And so, that is not an unusual event.
	Now, once you have found something like that, how do you address it?
	Well, you've got a couple of ways you can address it.
	You can rip it out, which is not the smart thing to do, or, knowing that it's there, you leave it there, and then you make certain that they hear what it is that you want them to hear.
	That's the smarter approach.
	That's the smarter approach.
	In the world of warfare, they call that deception.
	In business, people are squeamish about using that word, and so we refer to it as perception management.
	That is, creating perceptions and some points mind that might be inaccurate
	and managing them sufficiently to ensure that they take actions so that are consistent with uh... our clients best
	interests instead of uh... their own
	with regard to your action in the civilian sector if you were to find
	something like this you would not perhaps hesitate to advise a client
	of his options with regard to
	disseminating disinformation absolutely not Nothing illegal about that?
	Nothing.
	I mean, it's certainly not illegal, immoral, or fattening to protect yourself.
	I mean, it may be illegal, immoral, and fattening to go out and use things that are like bugs, for example, but to protect yourself from those things, certainly not.
	So then, do you think it would be more advantageous, generally, To have your client begin feeding disinformation more advantageous than to, say, call the police and have him busted and pay a big fine or something like that?
	Well, the problem with busting them and fines and all that other stuff is that, number one, that's not real sexy stuff for most of your local gendarmerie, huh?
	Sure.
	Secondly, typically people who are going to put something in are not going to leave their fingerprints on it.
	So, for example, they may have gone down to their local Spies R Us and bought something.
	Could be hard to prove.
	But it's typically very hard to prove who put it in.
	Unless they happen to come in and get caught one night servicing it because a battery went dead.
	If it happens to be one of those real cheap things that uses batteries that go dead.
	But it's almost inevitably, well, it's not inevitable.
	It's nearly impossible unless you do something to Poison the information stream and then track the behaviors of others to see what they're doing with the information that you put into the stream.
	That's the only time that you're going to find that somebody has actually engaged in an activity.
	There was a firm up in Boston that was manufacturing things that helped huge mailings.
	Go out.
	Kind of like an addressograph monograph, but not that exact process.
	And they had a Japanese competitor, and the Japanese competitor hired away the sales manager from the company.
	Duplo was the name of the company.
	And ultimately, what he was doing was penetrating their dial-in marketing system to identify who the company's clients were, and what he would do is then erase The incoming message is... Okay, John, hold it right there.
	We've got a break.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from August 10th, 1999.
	Oh Oh
	Premier Networks presents Art Bell somewhere in time Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from August 10th, 1999.
	My guest is a spook.
	An ex-spook.
	An ex-military intelligence operative.
	John Nolan.
	His book is confidential.
	Uncover your competitor's top business secrets legally and quickly.
	And protect your own.
	And we'll get back to him shortly.
	Listen, we live in strange times.
	A Chinese curse is upon us.
	Interesting times and all that.
	Well, they sure are interesting.
	Y2K is looming.
	By the way, I have booked, you will want to know, Gary North for the 19th.
	A lot of you have been asking for that, and here it comes.
	Gary North on the 19th.
	That's next week.
	Anyway, Whether Y2K turns out to be something or nothing, the weather certainly is something right now.
	There is something radically, radically wrong with the weather.
	Here in the American Southwest, I can assure you, I mean, we're in August right now.
	We should be at 115 degrees every day near Death Valley.
	The people in Arizona should very much like This area be in that temperature range.
	We have been in the 80s and 90s at best.
	We've seen it going down to 61 degrees at night.
	The East Coast is in severe drought.
	The Northwest plagued by lightning storms like they've never seen.
	And the weather has changed.
	tonight featuring coast-to-coast AM from August 10th 1999 once again John Nolan and you were talking about a company
	I think in Boston was it?
	Yeah, exactly, Art.
	We were talking about how Company might want to find the ways in which its adversaries are doing it dirt, and in this particular case, it was a foreign competitor that hired away as director of marketing, and he took with him the access codes to their dial in customer service marketing lines.
	Find out who called in and said, hey, send one of your people over to buy an X or to sell me an X. Then he'd write that down and then send one of his guys over ahead of the other people.
	Well, actually, he'd just go ahead and delete the message and they never knew that it came in.
	Then they finally figured out what was happening and so they went to some of their preferred customers and said, hey, would you call us and just leave?
	This pre-arranged telephone number will only be used for this purpose, and so they gave five or six of their customers a couple of telephone numbers that these people could leave on the message that didn't exist in any other way or for any other purpose.
	So they'd say, Hi there, this is Art Bell calling, and I'd like for you to come out and sell me something.
	Call me back at 555-1212.
	Of course, 555-1212 is the only number.
	Assigned to Art Bell and had nothing to do with his company, and so when that phone number rang by Dirtballs Incorporated, they knew that Dirtballs Incorporated was reading their mail.
	You bet.
	And they did that.
	They probably got about 30 or 40 of those that they used in the evidence, and that's, I believe, still under litigation in the Northeast.
	As a trade secret violation.
	And that's not an uncommon practice.
	It's an illegal practice.
	And of course, that's what we're trying to avoid, is encourage people to use the legal and the ethical ways of getting information, which is already there.
	I mean, we're such a porous society.
	We talked about our porous borders earlier.
	Yes.
	People talk far too much, far more than what they need to talk about.
	They sure do.
	And what we're trying to do is encourage people to To do things legally and not get themselves or their companies in trouble.
	And just as effectively, I presume.
	And just as effectively.
	You know, it's really interesting.
	We've got a professional society of which we're members.
	There's about 8,000 members of an organization called the Society of Competitive Intelligence Professionals.
	The headquarters is located in Arlington, Virginia.
	Alexandria, Virginia.
	And you can find out more about that off of our website, which is IntelPros.com, just in case you'd like to take a look at some of the library articles there, things we've been discussing.
	But the SCIP code of ethics is also listed there.
	And one of the things is that we always have to identify ourselves before conducting an interview by our real name and by our company name.
	And we always do that.
	And, you know, we keep track of the people that we call.
	We always want to be able to call them back if we need to, and we build a little file on each of the sources that we use, whether we meet them at a trade show or whether we meet them over the phone.
	Well, it's always easy.
	You must walk a very fine line.
	Sure we do.
	And it's because we know where the line is.
	We do essentially what they teach you in in the flight school. They tell you that there's a rule.
	The first rule is not to fly your aircraft into the trees. So the way that you violate that
	rule is by flying pretty close to the trees and all of a sudden there's one that's big
	enough that comes up and bites you in the butt.
	Now you bet.
	So when we know where the line is, we stay far away from it enough. But we don't have
	to go over that line.
	Whereas the average businessman who would decide to take this route, without your assistance, would probably crash right into the tree.
	They might very well do that.
	And that's one of the reasons that we wrote the book for small and medium-sized companies as well.
	Because the large guys have got the bodacious bucks that they can put into a business intelligence organization.
	Our approach to it is helping small and medium-sized companies as well as larger ones to understand how much information is already inside the company.
	Without going into details, I have a sponsor who is a friend of mine, Bob Crane, C. Crane Company.
	He has invented a number of proprietary products, things that he invented or that I helped him invent one way or the other.
	They were invented and they have been ravaged, I mean stolen and Ideas ripped off and on and on and on and on.
	And it's something he's faced.
	He's what I would call somewhere between probably now a medium-sized company.
	When I first met him, he was, you know, in his kitchen putting things together to sell.
	He's now at least a medium-sized company.
	And he's really, really got problems of the sort you're talking about.
	Sure.
	And it's a source of Yes, absolutely.
	That's the third part of the book.
	The first, of course, is the elicitation that we talked about earlier.
	steal something from you you also then have to know what to do to try to
	a direct five at uh... to go after them and uh...
	get them to stop doing what they're doing does your book address that
	oh yes absolutely uh...
	at the third part of the book the first of course of the most patient we talked about
	earlier second is collecting information from both internal sources
	of external sources
	uh... in an organized coherent and rigorous way And the third part is on protecting yourself from people who do these kinds of things and worse.
	The people who not only do them legally and ethically, but also the ones who do them illegally.
	For example, if you were to want to really protect yourself, the first thing you've got to do is understand what it is that you want to protect.
	I mean, you can't just say, I want to protect everything in the company because then you put gates and guards and guns and dogs around everything and you never get your product out the door.
	You can't do business that way.
	You can't do business that way.
	So, at some point you've got to say, this is the crown jewel of the week.
	This is the set of crown jewels of the month or the year.
	These are the things that we need to protect.
	Then you have to understand who the other guys are who are looking at you.
	Who are your competitors?
	Who are your direct competitors?
	Who are your emerging competitors?
	uh... and it's a trip once you've got an idea of who they are then you can begin
	to isolate on the kind of things that they will do to get the information
	about you some companies
	only go on the basis of what they read uh... in the media
	so those would be librarian function intelligence or organizations okay
	then there are others that have got full service intelligence organizations where
	they go after people as well as they might do overhead photography of your
	facility Okay?
	Well, I've talked to Bob.
	He's shopped all the time.
	Oh, I'm sure he is.
	When he says shopped, that means somebody comes in and wants to visit, wants to buy part of his technology, wants to team with him, wants to partner with him.
	You betcha.
	You got all those things.
	Yep.
	And if he's not getting a non-disclosure agreement and a confidentiality agreement with very stringent penalties for violation of them, As soon as that guy walks in the door, then he doesn't have a good corporate counsel advising him.
	That's part number one.
	And so he should have.
	And so he should have.
	The second thing he should do is understand what it is the guys are going to do when they come in.
	Are they going to be trying to recruit away his leading technical experts, or are they going to try and develop relationships with him so that while the guy continues to work for uh... for crane then he winds up uh... uh... what it is and he gets me to come on the phone to get some soccer game he gets a trade show he gets a professional meeting something like that and he begins to develop a relationship with him a good example uh... would be and i i don't want to get too specific but a a technical product which bob uh... bob's technicians improved on vastly the manufacturer of that product
	Didn't want to have to buy that or lease that from Bob.
	Right.
	And so... He stole it.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And it happens all the time.
	And it happens all the time because most of the people who have pieces of the information aren't aware of how much, when they're aggregated, those individual pieces add up to.
	Well... Does that make sense to you?
	Yes, it does.
	Within the company itself, let's say you've got 50, 60 employees in a company.
	What kind of steps does the CEO of that company take to ensure that information is not walking out the door through the telephone, through conversations with vendors and all the rest of it?
	How do you do that?
	Well, there's one way that is even described in the book, Confidential, where we actually
	laid out in the book a whole project where we helped a company identify what was most
	critical for them to protect and all the things that we did to attack the company on behalf
	of the company, replicating the behaviors that is acting like all of the bad guys in
	their competitive universe.
	We attacked them through waste archaeology.
	That's a nice way of saying dumpster diving.
	Not a nice thing to do in the South in the summertime, I'll tell you.
	So in other words, you act as kind of like a computer hacker is employed to try and test the security of... Exactly.
	We might call people at their homes, call them with a ruse that might suggest that we are representing a company that wants to hire somebody with
	their talents.
	The very first thing they start doing is selling themselves, talking about the projects that
	they're working on today.
	Sure.
	Because, I mean, that's their only commodity, isn't it?
	People talk too damn much.
	And exactly.
	And when people, you know, we train.
	I mean, we've got the Center for Operational Business Intelligence down in Florida where
	we've processed about 250 people through there in a one-week course.
	And we offer a solicitation course around the country teaching people how to get people
	to tell them things without asking them questions and making them suspicious or uncooperative
	or what have you.
	When we do that, people open up.
	People tell us things.
	As a matter of fact, one of the things at the school, one of the evening exercises to go And get people's bank account numbers, their PIN numbers, the amount of money they've got in the bank or on their credit card or what have you.
	Not for the purpose of misusing it, but just as a confidence builder for our students.
	To show how easily Americans will give up what most people think is pretty sensitive personal information.
	But we can get them to do that with very little training.
	And the flip side of it is training your people To know when these techniques are being used against them, either in person or on the phone or via email, as an example.
	Businesses, innovative businesses, really are almost at war.
	I mean, that's a strong word to use, but there's not a big difference, is there?
	If you're looking at it the way that Sun Tzu does it, The fifth century B.C.
	Chinese military strategist whose writings are in many CEOs' offices.
	When we go and talk to the senior leadership of American companies, they've got Sun Tzu, Sun Tzu and the Art of War, Sun Tzu and the Art of Business, a variety of books that set the stage.
	And if, of course, you're dealing with the Japanese, most of their military orientation is transplanted directly.
	Into their economic battlefield.
	Well, let me tell you a little something.
	I lived in Japan for 10 years, actually, Okinawa, for a decade.
	So I learned a lot about the Japanese people.
	And one thing I learned, I actually worked for a Japanese company.
	My boss was Japanese.
	And they are deceptively polite and cordial.
	We'll just go out of their way to put forward the very best face they can, but if it suits their purpose, they will steal you blind in business and won't think twice about it.
	True enough.
	You know, there's an interesting movie that came out about three years ago in Japan, probably after you came back, and the opening sequences of it show this fellow in an airport getting ready to check all of his luggage.
	A Japanese fellow.
	And he's in Rome.
	The setting is in the early 1950s.
	And he goes on to become the hero of this whole movie.
	But the opening scene is of him with three suitcases, one with his clothes in it and the other two with sprockets and carburetors.
	Belts, seat arrangements, handlebar things, etc.
	Braking instruments, brake pads, you name it.
	And it was Mr. Honda who had been touring all over Italy looking at Moto Guzzi and a variety of other Bespa motorcycle manufacturers, getting the best of their technology to take back to Japan.
	And when they said, sorry, you can only take two suitcases, Uh, then he took a bunch of the other stuff that was in the third suitcase, uh, out and dangled it on his body.
	I mean, he had, uh, jeans hanging from his belt and all kinds of things.
	Looked almost like a comical figure until you realized that he was then going to throw away that third suitcase with his clothes in it so that he could carry back all of these things in order to start building Honda motorcycles.
	And unfortunately, uh, characterized him as a hero.
	Unfortunately, our, uh, Customs people, customs people around the world, really are not prepared nor trained properly to understand what it is they're seeing, are they?
	Absolutely not.
	People don't look.
	How many times has U.S.
	Customs ever tossed your bags when you've been on your way out of the United States?
	Never.
	No full body cavity searches on the way out.
	Never, never, never.
	On the way back in, it's a different story.
	Right?
	In some cases.
	Yes, but... According to the profile.
	But I must tell you, when I travel, I travel with a great deal of electronics.
	I mean, I have suitcases that are just nothing but stem to stern electronics.
	And going to all kinds of wild places in the world, I watch, occasionally, yes, they'll open up a suitcase, but I must tell you, That most times it runs through that little scanner, and the person sits there and looks at it, and passes the suitcase right through, and there's no way in hell, there's no way in hell they could have known what was in that suitcase.
	It was nothing but a tangle of electronics that would have taken an hour if they'd opened it to figure it out.
	And they just, they just boop!
	Right by it.
	But they're not rocket scientists sitting there at $4.25 an hour anyway.
	They'd never be able to identify what it is anyway.
	You're absolutely right, but I have been just simply astounded at what they have let through.
	It's scary, because if they'll let that through, then any sort of circuitry, electronics, simply disguised to look like a radio is going to go right through.
	You know, the funniest thing that I ever saw with regard to going through those gates was my Going through the gates at Honolulu, going further west into the Pacific.
	Yes.
	Where I had not recharged.
	And this was in the early part of the 1980s.
	Wait a minute, John.
	We're again at the top of the hour, so hold that story.
	It's a good cliffhanger.
	And then I've got some breaking news for you.
	We'll turn back to the international situation.
	India and Pakistan, not good news there, folks.
	We'll be back.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	This is Premier Networks.
	That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
	I'm gonna lie, ooh, see that girl, watch that sea, diggin' some dancing queen.
	Friday night and the lights are low, looking out for a place to go.
	Oh When you play the right music, getting in the swing, you
	come to the station.
	Sailing away, on the crest of a wave, it's like magic.
	Oh, rolling and riding and slipping and sliding, it's magic.
	And you, as you sink inside, you can reach, oh, higher and higher, baby.
	It's a living thing.
	What a terrible thing to lose.
	It's a given thing.
	What a terrible thing to lose Somewhere in time with Art Bell continues courtesy of
	Premiere Networks.
	This is a very interesting program.
	John Nolan is here.
	He is a 20-year military intelligence operative, and he's turned his attention to the private sector with his book, Confidential.
	Uncover your competitors' top business secrets legally and quickly and protect your own.
	It's kind of a 101 on How to do what, uh, I guess you have to do these days.
	And we'll get back to John in a moment.
	and I've got a couple of very, very interesting facts here.
	Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
	Now, back to the past.
	you you
	All right, here we go once again with John Nolan.
	John, this comes from the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra.
	Kind of an interesting fax.
	Somebody involved at the top.
	It says, Art, please ask John about a few movies and how close to reality they might have been.
	Conspiracy theory, true lies, and enemy of the state.
	I get asked that question quite a bit, most particularly with Enemy of the State.
	Enemy of the State, of course, being the 25th reunion, I guess, of Gene Hackman with that basic story from the movie The Conversation.
	So it's not a new treatment, but rather an older treatment of a basic theme.
	Where there's a rogue within the intelligence community who does terrible things to small furry animals, if you will.
	But then again, on the flip side of it, Will Smith does play a lawyer, and so it might not be that it's bad things that the intelligence rogue was doing.
	There are some aspects to Certain roguish behaviors, and those roguish behaviors have been perpetrated by people in many different countries.
	I mean, there are French intelligence operatives and Germans and British as well as Americans and others who have done things that have been off the reservation, if you will.
	But by and large, those kinds of things are of the creation of Hollywood as opposed to the way in which most intelligence operations are managed and run and controlled so as to ensure that nobody gets so caught up and so fixated in their own quest for power that they don't play by the rules.
	And the rules actually are rather stringent.
	If I were to say anything at all about that I would say that we probably play by more stringent rules than most other countries, and indeed my colleagues from other intelligence services have often characterized it in pretty unflattering terms, almost as if we play the intelligence game as Pomnianas.
	Oleg Gordievsky, who was one of those guys who was placed at risk by Walter James, uh... defected in london before uh... they put the habeas
	gravis on for for being uh... somebody who cooperating with uh... with
	our government uh... for k g b officer
	uh... said about uh... summary here's as long as you americans continue to make
	intelligence a moral issue
	who won't understand that pretty much captures
	the way that other countries view intelligence operations as opposed to
	the united states well wasn't there a uh...
	wasn't there an incident in which uh... back during the uh...
	the kidnappings in uh... in iran as was so on where some russians were kidnapped
	And I seem to recall the Russian intelligence services sent a whole bunch of body parts back to family members, to the kidnappers.
	Indeed.
	And that was always a very profound lesson, to get seven of your brother's fingers.
	To somebody who was doing it, yeah.
	The Russians were not going to play the games.
	The Israelis don't play the game very much.
	I mean, they play by their own rules.
	And, you know, we might say, please let our people go, please let our people go.
	We're going to file a diplomatic protest.
	We're going to send you a diplomatic note.
	Well, you know, that really doesn't bother a whole lot of people.
	What bothers them is if somebody takes directed actions against them, such as exactly the case that you just described, where the Iranians, the new Iranians, stopped doing dastardly things to the Russians because they knew that the price they'd have to pay was just not a satisfactory price.
	Yeah.
	Lim's coming back.
	Yep.
	Alright, then he goes on here, a little more mundane and down the alley of your book here, How easy is it, he asks, for contract security officers, or janitors even, to get secret information for companies who are the targets?
	Who are the targets?
	That's terrifically easy, as a matter of fact.
	I'm acquainted with a case where a fellow came in to the security director one morning, and he was a contract janitor.
	Working in the company at night.
	He was coming off his shift and going off to his regular day job and he stopped in to tell the security manager that he had been approached the day before by somebody who wanted him to take $10,000 for a year to take every bit of trash out of the proposal conference room and the executive suite and put them into orange trash bags so that when he took them out and laid them next to the dumpster out back, they would know which trash bags to take.
	So the security manager thought that was kind of neat.
	One of our fellows happened to be in there at the time and said, wait a second, why is it that you came in and reported this?
	And the guy said, well I was pissed.
	He said, what were you so angry about?
	And he said, Well, that they would think that I would do that for $10,000.
	And they said, well, why is that?
	And he said, well, so-and-so is already paying me $15,000 a year, and then realized that he was about to step on his nose.
	He no longer works there, but the simple fact is that he was offended that somebody was offering him less money than he was already getting paid to do exactly the same thing.
	I've got you.
	So the answer is, it's very easy.
	Yeah, and most people, I mean, if you want to know the most dangerous trash can in the company, it's the one immediately adjacent to the photocopying machine.
	And the principle operating there is that if the secretary goes down and makes ten copies, and nine of them come out fine and one of them comes out somewhat skewed, and she knows that her boss isn't going to want to pass those around the table because it doesn't look as pretty as the rest of them.
	She'll throw those into the trash can because they don't look pretty, not because of the informational value.
	I understand.
	And sometimes they'll make the trash guy's job a little bit easier by tearing it in half, as if to say, this is more important, pay attention to this.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, hello there, you're on the air with John Nolan.
	Good evening, gentlemen.
	Good evening.
	Let's just leave it at West of the Rockies.
	Yeah.
	I've got a question and a comment.
	How does one deal with the Israelis?
	Question.
	Well, that's a very broad question, sir.
	Yes, in what regard?
	Are you talking about industrial espionage directed against the United States, or terrorism, counter-terrorism, political issues?
	Well, I had the privilege, if you want to call it that, of attending a company function.
	Not my company.
	Another company.
	And when everybody was properly oiled at the table, the escort of one of the ladies started very subtly pumping people as to what they did.
	Spotting and assessing is what we would call it.
	And I immediately took offense to it.
	So I took a napkin and started sketching, getting all the data basically I could on
	it. And then I went to my interface within the company and said, you got a problem. This
	is what he looks like. This is the name he's going by. He claims to be Israeli.
	So that was my approach.
	I understand, but I don't understand exactly the nature of the question.
	I guess that John's answer would be to do what you did.
	You did the right thing.
	Yes, most people don't pay attention to that, Yusef, as you have.
	Most people are not as situationally or generally aware of the ways in which people try and gather information.
	That's the whole point of your book.
	Yes.
	Obviously, you're aware of the nature of identifying somebody who is in a position and assessing that person's vulnerabilities or willingness to provide information for one reason or another.
	It may be Jonathan Pollard, who is, of course, now in the United States in jail for a very long time.
	Hopefully, he'll remain there no matter what pressures are being brought to bear on Mr. Clinton to have him released.
	But there are many people who will be under an assessment microscope virtually every day to find out what it is that would cause them to violate company secrecy or national secrecy agreements about what it is that they have access to each day.
	That's just the simple process of the intelligence world.
	Where you spot someone, you identify them, you assess what their motivation is, and then you feed that motivation to allow them the opportunity to make you a happier and smarter camper.
	There you are.
	First time caller on the line.
	You're on the air with John Nolan.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yeah, all right.
	Yes, sir.
	Where are you?
	I'm Jim.
	I'm up in Northwest Georgia.
	Okay.
	I'm a security director for a large nationally known carpet manufacturer.
	Okay.
	Over the last, I'd say, five years, here in this area, we've had a number of incidences that have involved the theft of proprietary information.
	In fact, there's a couple of lawsuits pending over that among competition, but it also goes outside the United States.
	We have some problems with a couple of our foreign competitors.
	I guess I've got two questions here.
	Based upon what I've heard tonight, and I was fortunate enough to have bought John's book in advance, just, I guess, somewhat serendipitous, and then dumbed into this whole thing, I believe, or at least it's my understanding, that these things that we call in my industry, you know, classical security protocols, things like Physical security, bigger locks, higher fences, things like information security, even personnel security really don't combat this.
	And so if I want to examine my facilities, and we've got a number in this area, we have about 10 facilities that I'm responsible for, how can I examine my own facilities to determine where my vulnerabilities exist In relationship to what I think my threat might be.
	And then the second side of that is that myself, as well as my colleagues in this particular industry, we come out of the law enforcement community.
	And so, you know, our concept of dealing with these kinds of problems are the cuff and stuff.
	You know, we deal with everyday issues like theft of property.
	Information seems to be something that it's real hard to get our hands around.
	How can I go about getting trained or getting more information or training in this area?
	Are there companies out there that offer that type of training?
	Well, Jim, thank you very much for your call.
	Two good questions.
	The second one is a bit easier.
	One of the things that our firm does is we provide in-house training to companies.
	And you can find us at www.intelpros.com.
	That's one level.
	Second is the Center for Operational Business Intelligence.
	You can find that on the web at the T-H-E-V-C-E-N-T-R-E dot org.
	Or you can call for some additional information at 615-833-9333.
	And that's open to the general public?
	That's open to the general public, and as a matter of fact, we get lots of people from your background, the law enforcement background, that want to do more, and what they want to do is learn more about the counterintelligence side, because it's kind of the difference of the way that they do things in government.
	You know, if you've got Bank robbers, their modus operandi, their way of doing things is understood by the folks who work on bank robbery details.
	The typical police officer has a law enforcement orientation that seeks to understand and thereby capture somebody who has already committed an act.
	The counterintelligence methodology, however, is much more proactive.
	It means understanding where somebody comes from and how they might do something and neutralize
	them before they actually do it.
	It requires kind of a mind shift.
	You don't have cops in New York City looking for spies and you don't have counterintelligence
	people looking for rapists and murderers.
	That's one side of the equation and that may provide you some resources.
	The second is even more fundamental but it partly relates to this issue of the distinction
	between the gates and guards and guns and dogs that are the typical security protocols.
	That's what my management feels will stop this problem, but our history doesn't show that.
	We've gotten bigger fences and bigger locks.
	We lock our information in safes, but they've used, and some from your earlier discussion, some apparently to me have been illegal.
	One of the ways that I might suggest to do that is to have somebody, us, would be a great example, but there are a couple of firms that can help you understand and make your employees aware of the exact way in which competitive intelligence people gather information, and the way industrial espionage people do it, and the way that economic espionage people do it.
	And then, by way of making them aware of it, institutionalize some processes, like Yosef was calling earlier.
	He went in and made a report.
	Most people don't know what to report.
	They don't recognize what to report.
	And I'll pretty much guarantee that if you institutionalize something, and where you make the employees understand that it's part of their responsibility, and maybe even tie it to some of their performance or some of their They're awareness of, A, they keep their job because the company stays in business, or B, their stock options are better.
	Those kinds of tie-ins generally make people a little bit more cooperative.
	And third, provide them a mechanism for reporting, whatever it is, so that then you can get a handle on who is calling into your company from where are they calling, what kind of questions are they asking.
	And those things are very, very important in understanding what the nature of your Your threat environment, as we might call it, represents.
	Who are the bad guys?
	What are they doing?
	How are they doing it?
	What are they probably getting?
	And then you can even attack yourself.
	You sound like somebody who's got a fairly large staff.
	What I would encourage you to do is replicate the behaviors.
	Act like the bad guys.
	Attacking yourself and finding out where the real holes are and then you can determine what countermeasures are appropriate to Kind of an extension of the recording you always get.
	This call may be monitored to ensure quality assurance.
	Exactly.
	Very good.
	All right, listen partner, I've got to run.
	All right, I love your show.
	Thank you very much and take care.
	What they mean is that they're going to be listening in to be sure that their representative is doing the right kind of stuff.
	Just an extension of that.
	I'm Art Bell from the high desert.
	Is Coast to Coast AM.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from August 10th, 1999.
	Music Music
	Music You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from August 10th, 1999.
	John Nolan is my guest.
	He's been a military intelligence operative for 20 years.
	Now taking that experience and applying it to the private sector.
	He's written a book.
	And it sounds like a book that if you're in business, you should have.
	It's called Confidential.
	Uncover your competitor's top business secrets legally and quickly and protect your own.
	and uh...
	we'll get back to him in a moment you're listening to are bills somewhere in time
	tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from August 10th, 1999.
	♪♪♪ All right, here we go.
	Once again, John Nolan is my guest, and if you have a question for him, we would certainly love to hear from you.
	John, I've got a couple of facts here that I would like to explore with you if I might.
	One asks about encryption of data.
	Somebody here is talking about encrypting data.
	I'm using, he says, a 4096-bit key software and advise my clients to do it as well.
	The originating programmers were going to put the source code on the net.
	I advise them against it, mentioning that if the software proves stronger, Then ISSAK, whatever that is, there would be people coming through the door and they would not be police.
	Pass on best wishes to John.
	I think I met him about 19 years ago.
	Signed, Clark.
	Oh!
	Clark Kent, probably.
	This certainly is an issue.
	I mean, in the computer age, encryption I guess anything encrypted can be unencrypted, but what kind of safeguards can somebody... Well, the first thing that you can appreciate is that most people are not going to be read.
	I mean, it's so incredible the number of emails, for example, that are going out, being received.
	There's no way that that somebody's just going to willy-nilly go through every
	encryption protocol, nor try and just rip off your email in the first place.
	There are a whole bunch of things that you shouldn't say, just like you shouldn't say things in conversation.
	And of course the informality of the web causes people to do more and more
	than perhaps they might do in a company letter-headed letter,
	if it were to go out, right?
	Right.
	So the informality of the web makes people write more than perhaps they otherwise would.
	And of course, that's a whole other dimension to gathering information from people.
	That's just the straightforward part.
	When it comes to encryption, if you've got an attachment that you need to send to someone, The first question is, do you actually need to send it to them electronically?
	If you don't, then download it onto a diskette or burn it onto a CD and ship it to them by FedEx.
	Most of the world doesn't revolve around world peace.
	Things don't have to necessarily be shipped within nanoseconds.
	They can go FedEx and be there the next business morning and handle it that way.
	The next level up is if you actually do have stuff that has to go out that frequently, and that rapidly, then buy an encryption program such as PGP, which stands for Pretty Good Privacy.
	You can get the commercial version of it.
	And it is pretty good.
	And it is pretty good.
	It was intriguing to me.
	I deal with a bunch of people in Eastern Europe, and one day I had something that we needed to encrypt going back and forth between us.
	And I said, unfortunately, you don't have PGP.
	And they said, well, as a matter of fact, we've got PGP.
	And I said, well, you've probably got the old version.
	Anyway, and they said, because the new one just came out last week.
	And they said, well, actually, we downloaded it from the University of Oslo bulletin board the day before yesterday.
	And, of course, it's something that was not supposed to come in the United States.
	Oh, that's a joke.
	We were able to download it from a Finnish thing.
	That got it from somewhere else.
	Of course.
	And at the same time, they have in Eastern Europe some pretty good encryption protocols as well.
	I just don't know how reliable they are and who else knows how to read those.
	You know, of course, the folks at No Such Agency, which are the initials NSA, I've had some difficulty with, and so has the FBI, which people at NSA say stands for Famous But Incompetent.
	They all have registered their disdain for encrypted communications because it does not allow them access to Intelligence information or criminal information.
	Actually, they want keys.
	They want the keys if, indeed, they can't keep people from being able to use them.
	All they really want are the keys so that then they can open something up when they need to.
	With regard to No Such Agency, there is great lore that they have Krays and whatever comes after a Kray that monitors Telephone conversations, domestic and foreign, looking for keywords.
	Yes.
	Would you put that in the category of lore, or lo and behold, it's probably true?
	Probably the latter.
	That's why I always advise people during conversations on the phone to drop keywords like kilo, kilo, in a conversation every now and then.
	I'd probably drive somebody back there absolutely nuts, because I'm sure it kicks it out and says, listen to this, will you?
	Well, you know, it's interesting.
	I've been told, without the veil of secrecy attached to it, that, are you familiar with the, and I need to ask you the first question, are you familiar with the facility at Lourdes in Cuba?
	I've heard of it.
	It was the station that the Russians, the Soviets put in.
	To listen to American military and diplomatic voice traffic.
	And it had about 1,200 people working at this facility before the wall came down.
	And the former Soviet Union became less and less economically viable.
	Since that time, you would expect that One of those outlying way stations would have fallen into disrepute and disrepair.
	Certainly.
	And disuse.
	My understanding is that now they've got almost 2,000 people working there, that the equipment that they're using is designed to intercept business and technological traffic as opposed to governmental traffic, and that it's possible to now buy the results of those intercepts internationally.
	Great.
	I've just been told that.
	I don't have a firm assurance of that, but it is sufficient enough for me to understand that I'm not going to discuss things over the phone that I ought not to.
	In other words, you should always assume... You should always assume that somebody isn't listening.
	Because indeed they could.
	I mean, Newt Gingrich would have been a lot better off a couple of years ago if he had simply assumed that somebody else was listening.
	Yes, indeed.
	Cell phones are...
	People don't understand their little broadcast stations.
	Now, of course, the scanners are keeping up quite well, even with the trunk systems, which should be rather secure.
	They have scanners that will follow a trunk signal all over the place.
	Right, exactly.
	Just amazing what can be done, actually.
	First time caller on the line, you are on the air with John Nolan.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	I just want to say I'm lucky to get through tonight, and I wanted to know if you, John, Have you had any experience with the LSD and mind control subject?
	Actually, my only experience with that was helping cremate Timothy Leary just a couple of weeks ago.
	Did you really?
	No, I'm sorry.
	that are going to do we know at one time well actually uh...
	i my only experience with that was helping cremate timothy leary
	uh... just a couple weeks ago really no i i i i'm sorry
	i was big should off
	uh...
	in actuality that uh... that does go back to what they thought was a fairly
	legitimate program back in the nineteen fifties But then again, they thought that nuclear testing was a fairly legitimate activity as well that wasn't going to be injurious to anyone.
	And indeed, it turned out to be.
	With regard to mind control, my own understanding and my very limited experience was more of an offensive nature than of A defensive nature, that is, us trying to learn what it was that the Russians and particularly the Bulgarians, who were the ones who had the most well-developed programs, were doing internationally.
	I do not know that they were as successful as some writers have purported them to have been.
	And the use of mind-altering drugs and the other approaches to mind control, I think, are probably a little bit more fantastic than they are reality-based.
	There were some promises, if you call that promising, that were actually achieved.
	But again, that's only the tip of the iceberg for you.
	Beyond that, I don't think it would be appropriate to comment more or to conjecture unwisely.
	Okay, we'll leave it right there, and everybody can read between all that.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with John Nolan.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	On a quick side note, when's the last time that you've had any conversations with David Adair and what he's doing?
	I talked to David Adair about a week ago.
	Excellent.
	He was just in a conversation with him.
	John, if you could give out your web address and the phone number again, I'd appreciate that.
	Oh, surely.
	It's IntelPros, www.IntelPros, which is short for Intelligence Professionals, I-N-T-E-L-L-P-R-O-S dot com.
	okay your father you gave out a six one two yes seven eight zero
	one seven one eight
	uh... eight zero one seven one eight yes sir uh... and as far as p gp is concerned from the
	information i have i think up to tell p g p four point
	six then the uh...
	i think the national securities act kicked in on the anti-terrorism legislation distinct some universal
	uh... keys were given out to law enforcement on anything above
	Do you have any knowledge of that?
	I also heard that, yes.
	Yes, I've heard that, but frankly, I don't know all of the particulars.
	So just use the old PGP 4.6.
	Everybody makes some people very unhappy, but it works real well.
	And Project Echelon.
	Is the monitoring of 1.5 million simultaneous phone calls by some supercomputers.
	Bob Barr mentioned it in his Barr amendment on June 17th.
	Yes.
	It was actually mentioned in the congressional record and I had some first-hand experience.
	Forbes magazine in late May did an article entitled Patent Terrorists Dealing With Some rather large Asian companies.
	I won't go into the specifics of what the article talked about, but I had some first-hand dealings with some of those companies and some of the tactics that they use to tie into the 3,000 Chinese front companies that the Cox Commission had detailed out as working not only with the two spies that they got, Dr. Peter Lee up in Lawrence Livermore and Winho Lee In Los Alamos, but there was 3,000 other front companies mentioned.
	I can't find a list of those 3,000 companies, but I think I've got a few of them that revolved around some SERP technology that I had and some of the methodology that the Asians used, and I think I've ran across a couple of other people that were the unfortunate recipients of their attention also.
	...was putting pressure on their families of the Chinese-Americans here, both university students and students participating in study projects for their PhDs.
	They simply put pressure on the family in China, in particular some of the 1.2 million kids that had participated in Tiananmen Square, which they subsequently came in and pulled their Communist Party cards.
	They went into the underground economy, which makes them essentially felons in China.
	You can't work in China without being a member of the Communist Party.
	So that makes them subject to arrest.
	They documented them.
	Anything that they need done, you may have a very honest Yes, absolutely.
	working for you but uh... when he gets a tap on the shoulder by special forces
	p l a or something equivalent uh... they just say look at you will do what you're told or
	your sister your your job
	you know cousin or whatever other family member that they have a handle on in
	china's going to suffer beyond belief these people do what they're told
	yes absolutely and
	i thought i might uh... invite you uh... there to our website that i just give
	you the address for uh... there's a uh... section on those called library
	and there are a couple of articles there on chinese intelligence services
	practices here in the united states And one of them specifically addresses those issues that you're concerned about, particularly the front companies.
	There are a couple of references to it in the article, and particularly all of those in the 22nd province of China.
	which we call california uh...
	and uh... you might find
	uh... that and the links to additional information on that in that article not to be used to you
	i could i could write a of an in-depth spy novel regarding what the week where we're right now involved in a
	uh... in a patent infringement suit which probably is is going to be
	protracted forever because these companies to grab your technology
	uh... they're they're such large companies worth billions with some of
	the most high-powered and i would also add to your law firms
	Yes, they're involved with them, some of the largest.
	I mean, anybody would recognize the names of the largest in the country.
	Therefore, please don't give them.
	Oh, I won't.
	It's just that some of them are within Kenneth Starr's background as well, coincidentally possible.
	Close enough.
	If you get involved with these people, they'll run you into the ground.
	We're not the only ones that are involved in some of this.
	There are some large corporations that are running afraid of these people because of the PLA connections and some of the other tactics that they use.
	It's quite incredible.
	Oh, it absolutely is.
	As a matter of fact, there are some people who think that the Economic Espionage Act of 1996 is the answer to every maiden's prayer, but in fact, It's probably more problematic than many other pieces of legislation, if for no other reason than when they sought to criminalize it, they also extended all of those criminal protections that judges tend to give, and that includes discovery.
	When Bristol Myers got involved in the attempted theft by some Chinese nationalists, or Chinese nationalists from Taiwan, of their cervical cancer drug, Taxol.
	The judge allowed them to allow the defense of the underdiscovery to gain access to the information that they were supposed to have attempted to steal, and a lot more.
	And because it was in the hands of the Justice Department by then, Bristol-Myers no longer had control of the case.
	The case went forward with the perpetrators being able to gain access to more under discovery than they were alleged to have tried to steal in the first place.
	So that becomes kind of problematic, as I'm sure you can well imagine.
	Indeed.
	And rapidly.
	So it's really up to you to protect yourself, not to ask the federal government to come in on any given day.
	And there's where your book would come in very handy.
	I would hope.
	That was the reason it was written.
	All right.
	How long has your book been out, John?
	What's today?
	It's been out since the 1st of August.
	So it's all of 12 days.
	Make that 11 days old.
	Yes, indeed.
	Oh my.
	Alright, so you can get it in bookstores.
	You can go to Amazon.com and get it, folks.
	John, we have come to the end of the program.
	I thank you very much for your time, Art.
	Well, thank you, and let's do it again sometime.
	It's been an absolute pleasure.
	My pleasure, indeed.
	I look forward to it.
	And when you can tell...
	Another 10% will do another show.
	See you later, John.
	Thank you, Art.
	Good night.
	Good night.
	All right, everybody.
	I'm sorry we're out of time.
	That's all there is.
	And so tomorrow night, Sylvia Brown is going to be here.
	I know many of you have been waiting a long time for that.
	We're going to be talking, obviously, about the eclipse, which is going to be occurring just as I go off the air tomorrow night.
	And should strange things begin to occur, I would extend my hours tomorrow night just because.
	I don't expect that to have to happen, but you never know.
	So she's a good guest for tomorrow night.
	She's nationally known.
	Then on Thursday night, Friday morning, Ed Dames will be here, and I should remind you that I have now booked Gary North for the 19th.
	That is what is immediately ahead, aside from the unknown.
	And that's always ahead.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.

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