Dr. Jeffrey Long and Tricia McGill discuss Karen-2’s NDE, where she witnessed her own funeral—her son Jake laughing unknowingly, her husband remarrying, and a stepmother allegedly mistreating him—sparking emotional resistance to death. Spirit guides revealed her return was permitted to prevent unresolved grief from trapping her as a ghost, though she negotiated new lessons for her next life, including easing others’ trauma about the afterlife. Both experts validate NDEs as credible, citing consistent details beyond hypoxia or endorphins, and propose meditation as safer exploration while dismissing skepticism that NDEs are mere brain artifacts, suggesting instead a higher spiritual trigger. [Automatically generated summary]
Talk with Dr. Jeff Long and Dr. Tricia McGill, and then downline a little bit, we're going to talk to a young lady.
They brought us Sarah.
Remember Sarah with her MDE?
Well, they've got more to say about Sarah, and I've got a couple of questions for them, too.
No doubt questions that will cause them to squirm a little bit in their seats.
So we'll get to all of that coming up directly ahead.
Okay.
Dr. Jeff Long, a medical doctor, is a physician specializing in something very mainstream, radiation oncology, the use of radiation to treat cancer.
He's developed the website devoted to NDEs at www.NDERF.org, and we've got a link to that on my website now.
It is one of the world's premier NDE websites, serves on the board of directors of IANDS, the International Association for Near-Death Studies, and chairman of the research committee of the International Association of Near-Death Studies.
Then we also have Tricia McGill, a licensed clinical psychologist who holds a PhD in hypnotherapy.
And she's occasionally done her own radio talk show regarding psychology issues in the past, has talked with scores of NDE experiencers, has published many of their experiences in yet another website, www.nderf.org.
And you don't have to really remember those.
Just go up to my website and go down to the guest area, click on Dr. Long's website or Dr. McGill's website, and you can do a lot of reading, and you're going to want to.
They're the ones who brought us Sarah, who had what I consider to be the most articulate, spellbinding description of an NDE that I've ever heard in my whole life.
They've got another young lady they're going to bring on a little later in the show here who's going to tell you about her experience.
And apparently, in Scandinavia or in France, I'm not sure where, you were invited to participate in an experiment, basically a flatliners experiment, a real one in which prisoners would be used, presumably volunteers, to produce, to let them go flatline.
In other words, actually stop all their processes, I don't know by what means, and have a real NDE and then bring them back to life if you could.
Well, no, no, we'll get separate and then see if the near-death experience with its reported full life review would change their criminal behavior.
Isn't that about right?
unidentified
Well, actually, I don't believe there was anything so noble as to try to change their criminal behavior, although that would be, to me, one of the major interests.
Yeah, medically, I was intrigued with how they planned to induce an NDE with these prisoners.
They were going to induce a cardiac arrest.
As I recall, it would have been electrical stimulation in the area of the heart to the point that the heart stopped beating, and then as a result, they would have a cardiac arrest and clinical death by cessation of the heart and cessation of breathing.
As a matter of morbid curiosity, how long in the series of experiments were they planning to let people be clinically dead?
unidentified
That's a good question.
I think the end point that they discussed with us after some prodding would have been at least the induction of clinical death for a while, you know, i.e.
several minutes.
After several minutes of cessation of heart function and breathing, you can resuscitate the person in a very, very high probability with very low risk of damage.
But I think that was what they were planning to do and then see if they had a near-death experience.
I mean, are we talking about, you know, resuscitation or resurrection here?
And they said, well, if you lose a few, it's no big deal.
They sign a permission that no matter what happens, they don't hold you liable.
And so what if you lose a few prisoners along the way?
And I was just flabbergasted.
I didn't even want to talk to them any further.
But for the sake of politeness, I said, well, you know, I don't think we're really interested in that because it just sounds just a little bit too unethical and altogether too frightening.
Is it your impression that they intend to go ahead with this with or without you?
unidentified
Well, I think the good news is that they needed some funding, and they were looking for us for some funding and some support, and we were not willing to do that.
We, like virtually all near-death experience researchers, are highly ethical, and we really want no part of research like that.
Nonetheless, they seemed very determined in their efforts to seek out funds and seek out support for research like that.
It seems like anything we can think of, we're going to do eventually, despite societal restrictions or mores or whatever, we're going to go ahead and do it, and nothing really is going to stop it, right?
unidentified
I hope that it's stopped.
I hope it's stopped by ethical people that won't provide the money, by ethical prisoners that won't subject themselves to experiments like that.
However, all that having been said, I understand you're on the side of the white light, doctors.
But after they've completed the experiments and they've written the report, having done this on, say, 100 patients, having lost, say, five in the process, how anxious would you both be to read the report?
Honest answers, please.
unidentified
Obviously, I would be interested in seeing what they did.
I'd read about it.
I think there's a precedent in history that the work that they do may not be published and widely distributed.
the Nazis did some exceedingly unethical medical, so-called medical research, and while the results were of some, quote, medical value, unquote, in general, they were suppressed and not circulated because of the highly unethical nature of the experiments.
I think the nature of work like that would be fantastic enough that just out of just plain interest, I think virtually anybody would want to see what happened.
Well, I'm trying to remember now what they did, but they took twins and would like torture one and see if they'd get a reaction out of the other one in a separate room.
But you know, also, I believe it is fair to say that some knowledge that obviously would not have been gained otherwise was gained.
Now, where that knowledge now rests, I would have no idea, but there was obviously some knowledge gained that is locked in a vault somewhere.
unidentified
Oh, I wouldn't doubt it.
It could be.
I think the philosophy is that if they're that unethical in pursuing that type of research, then they don't have any particular credibility in terms of the results.
But in those countries, they do have those different laws.
And it seems to me, in a volunteer situation, one can imagine the law would allow this to go on with respect to volunteering prisoners.
Yes?
unidentified
Yep.
There's other international conventions regarding obtaining informed consent for human studies, and that was set up in the Geneva Convention.
And, you know, I guess arguably, yes, you could find prisoners that give informed consent for even such an experiment.
I know where you're heading with this, Art, and unfortunately, I think you're right.
As you mentioned earlier, if something theoretically can be done sooner or later or behind closed doors, but if they can get the funding for it, I'm sure this group is going to go ahead with this.
And I'm sure the way they present it to the prisoners is that it's, you know, possibly has some slight risk, but they could have suicidal prisoners anyway that wouldn't mind it.
Art, for your sake and your listener's sake, if we hear anything further about that, you'll be the first to know.
We didn't want to even encourage them to that slight degree because we thought what they were proposing was really unethical, yeah, to the max, you know.
So we wouldn't hear about it directly, but we have a lot of connections, including international connections, and our website helps us to maintain that.
So if it's going on anywhere, folks that are interested in near-death experience anywhere in the world are going to hear about that and hopefully let us know.
Terrence McKenna is one of the most brilliant, articulate, philosophically fascinating people I've ever known in my life.
I have interviewed him many, many times.
Was planning to go to Hawaii to see him.
And, you know, so we're pretty close.
Well, the other day out of the blue, he began to go into convulsions.
They rushed him to the hospital.
They found an apparently extremely aggressive type of malignant tumor in his frontal lobe area of his brain.
The prognosis was not good at all.
He might have from days to weeks, six weeks, and maybe at best a few months to live, period.
That's the prognosis.
Yesterday, Dr. Wong, he went through the gamma knife operation, which reportedly removed reasonably without damaging other tissue about 90% of the tumor.
And he appears to be just fine, other than having a big headache, as you might imagine he would.
He seems to be okay.
Would the fact that they got 90% of the tumor in the frontal lobe area, doctor, very likely mean very much in terms of the long-term prognosis?
unidentified
I'm assuming from what you've told me that this is one of the most aggressive primary brain tumors called a glioblastoma.
But I've also heard that these tumors are capable, they're so malignant, they're capable of returning to their original size virtually in a week or so.
unidentified
That's pushing it in terms of recurrence.
If indeed this is a glioblastoma, the chances of curing it are extremely poor.
The survival rate of this very aggressive type of brain tumor is less than 1%.
I've only seen one person in my life who was a long-term, i.e.
And Keith, would you please put Sarah's NDE back up there one more time so anybody who hasn't heard it can go to my website and hear it at your convenience over the weekend?
Sarah was bicycling home from a volunteer position at a church in the evening.
She was hit by a pickup truck traveling around 50 miles an hour.
She and the bike were slammed against the truck, and she was thrown 60 feet into the air, had major physical damages.
Next thing she knew, she was floating.
She noticed a hum and then sort of a pinprick of light way off in the distance, and she was just in this void.
And then she saw a first, what she considered to be a demonic creature surrounded by flames with huge eyes and teeth, and it started running towards her, and she just didn't know what to do.
She told me she just froze in fear, and the thing went right through her.
And as it went through her, it was laughing, and it popped kind of out of her back, is the way she put it.
Two more creatures with different colors came by, and she just stood her ground, and the same thing happened.
Then the next thing she saw was a tunnel.
She went into the entrance of the very black tunnel, and she could see there were doorways on both sides.
She popped into the first doorway.
Actually, she was sort of sucked into it, as she called it, and she saw a traditional form of hell, the fire and brimstone torture type.
And she looked at everything and was quite repulsed and said, well, I'm out of here.
And she left.
At the same time, she noticed that she'd lost her astral body and she'd become a blue-white sort of a star, what she called it.
Anyway, after this NDE, and it was such an unusual NDE that, you know, we brought her on your show.
And, gosh, before we even got off the air, we had maybe a dozen emails from people saying, this sounds exactly like a Tibetan Buddhist, you know, what they describe in the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
Well, frankly, I admit that I had not read the Tibetan Book of the Dead because I was too busy reading, you know, American NDE type books and research and so forth, and I never got into Tibetan.
She dies and she does not go to the traditional Baptist after life.
She goes to something from a prior life.
What does that suggest about our spirits, our souls, our very current consciousness?
That's really something.
unidentified
It's the most unusual in the EWE have ever collected.
I think Jeff's bursting at the scenes to tell you about it.
Yeah, I think to help answer your question, both me and Tricia were flabbergasted when we got the results on this.
This is absolutely amazing.
And especially to use somebody who is totally independent of the two of us to do the past life regression to try to reduce any risk of bias in terms of leading her.
Neither Tricia nor I had heard of the Tibetan Book of the Dead until after our last broadcast on your show.
And then, oh my gosh, did your very astute listeners clue us in on what that was all about?
And then we had a chance to read it.
I think you have to understand that in Tibetan customs, they spend a great deal of time sort of processing what they're supposed to do when they die.
And that's put down in writing in the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and it sort of gives the imagery of what they're supposed to expect.
So as a Buddhist monk, Sarah would have had a great deal of time and energy and effort expended in her training and understanding as to this is the imagery as to what to expect when she dies.
And I think that probably had something to do with it.
And see, I suggested that the hypnotherapist ask her about certain daily activities.
And she said that she spent a great deal of time in prayer, and she started naming off these prayers.
But once again, what does this say about the nature of our very beings that the afterlife we might expect from what we believe now, our current held beliefs and convictions, might not be what we get at all, but we might get something from a few lifetimes ago?
unidentified
I think that's very clear from Sarah, and even talking with some of the other major NDE researchers about this, who are also very intrigued, I think it's opening up our thoughts in terms of what could possibly be.
This certainly raises the very distinct possibility, actually it further substantiates reincarnation and further raises the possibility that we may be taking some beliefs back with us when we reincarnate.
I would remind your listeners that Sarah's NDE is prominent on our website, www.nderf.org, as well as some of the additional commentary and some additional stuff that we learned from the subsequent work with her.
Let me also say one thing.
Now, Carl Jung, who's a famous psychiatrist, father of modern psychology, as some people call him, he had a heart attack and he went into outer space.
And it reminded me a little bit of what you were doing.
You were flying over Paris, but he went even further than that, saw the Earth as a blue ball.
He could recognize oceans and continents, and he was looking at all of that.
And then he saw, according to the report, a rock, a huge, kind of like a meteorite, come up right next to him.
And there was a Hindu priest sitting in the lotus position on this rock and beckoned for him to join him.
And he was about to go over, but he knew that if he did cross over to this rock, he was floating in space and he wanted to kind of walk in there.
If he did cross over, he would gain all knowledge of all things.
But if he didn't cross over, he could come back to Earth.
And he chose to come back to Earth, even though it was a hard choice for him to make.
I want to ask you, Dr. Long, this is a little sort of an aside, but it would be in your area.
I have been hearing from, I've unfortunately had a lot of friends with heart attacks and strokes lately.
Must be some kind of message.
But anyway, I've heard from people that even heart attacks which do not produce NDEs or anything close, that people survive, and strokes that people survive, but particularly with heart attacks, which you wouldn't expect, when they come back from it, and once they've done the rehabilitation, chelation, whatever they're doing afterwards, they have a different aspect to their personality.
Is that common?
unidentified
You know, that actually is.
In fact, one of the great researchers on near-death experience, Dr. Kenneth Ring, did a lot of work on studying the life changes that resulted for people that had near-death experiences and for people that had faced life-threatening events but did not have a near-death experience.
And I might add, only about 30% of people that have life-threatening events actually have a near-death experience.
There's certainly life changes and what are generally perceived as positive life changes occurring when people come close to dying.
But as far as a near-death experiences, I think it's an order of magnitude more of those type of changes.
But I've heard that they actually come back with discernibly different traits to their personality, and that's not the end of years.
That's just that people have had heart attacks and very serious things occur to them.
unidentified
You know, I think you're right, and I know what you're getting at.
It's certainly possible that they had a near-death experience that they did not remember or some other event that would have shaped their personality or their...
Absolutely possible.
No question about that.
Time and time again, Art, we have near-death experiencers that come back and say they had knowledge of the experience taken away, that it wasn't for them to know here.
And I'm sure that a significant proportion of people that die that don't remember an event actually did have an experience and the memory was taken away.
I think, Art, sometimes it's really, and this is going to sound really funky, but I don't believe it's really meant for us to, some people to know about the ENDE because they could not ever adjust back to normal life.
They are of the temperament that it would be very difficult for them.
They would be full of rage and resentment if they had to come back.
And it might actually be a negative thing in their life instead of a positive.
Well, actually, Karen came to us via she had submitted her NDE on a Kevin Williams website, and Kevin Williams was kind enough to allow us to contact her, which we did.
And we got her NDE up on our website, and I talked to her at length.
And whenever you asked me a couple days ago if I had any NDEs in mind that would be interesting like Sarah's was, I thought of her.
Yes, I thought of Karen.
I thought, Karen has got an unusual one, and I think she's a school teacher and a mother and a wife, and I think she's very articulate, and you'll really enjoy her MDE.
And then as I got into high school, I really started to reject some of those ideas because my beliefs just didn't fit with the Baptist belief completely.
Well, three years ago, I was, well, actually, let me start before my actual accident, before my NDE.
After the birth of my first child, I would say my son Jacob was probably about six to eight weeks old, somewhere around there.
And I had a dream one night that I woke up just sobbing hysterically because I had died.
And this dream was so real.
It was like other premonition dreams that I had had previously in the past.
And so because of the fact that this was so real, for months, every time I would get in my car and I was driving, then I was looking out for this vehicle that I had seen for fear that this was actually going to happen.
Well, it was the realness of the dream in which I took it as a forewarning.
If it were just a typical dream, like my parents had told me, you know, that when, after the birth of, you know, of me and my sister, that it was a common thing for mothers to have dreams, something was going to happen to their children, but not necessarily to themselves.
And so they thought that maybe it was just along that line, but because of the realness of this dream and the realness of other dreams that had actually come true for me, then I knew that this was something a little bit more than just a typical dream.
So I had the dream, and so for months, you know, I was driving around watching, you know, for this car, trying to be extra careful and everything and making turns and stuff.
And finally, you know, I would say when my son was probably about six or seven months old, you know, I just decided, you know, I can't live my life scared forever and just forget about it.
And so finally, you know, when I just gave it up and said, you know, whatever is going to be is going to be, I was at school one day and there was a student that I was having a real difficult time getting along with and I wanted to go to get along with him better.
So I thought, you know, well, gee, maybe if I find out what some of his interests are, he was on the baseball team, I thought, you know, maybe we can get a conversation going dealing with baseball and maybe we can find some way to create a friendship out of this.
And from my understanding, from what the paramedics had said and from what the doctors and the nurses had said, was that they believe, I had my seatbelt on, they believe that from the force of this and the hype of the pickup, that my head ended up hitting the glass window and hitting the headlight of the truck.
So because they had there was blood and everything that they found on the truck and the paramedics had said that it wouldn't have gotten there unless my head had actually hit it.
And the doctors and the nurses had said that I was very lucky to survive this accident because of the severity of it.
And that my injuries that I had, that I were expecting me to be able to remember this, but because I have absolutely no recollection of it, they believe that I probably wasn't looking and I didn't see the car come through the red light.
Otherwise, I would have pinned up and my injuries would have been a lot worse.
The way that I think now, I have to go from head to toe, so let me start with my head.
My whole face was with black and blue.
It was just swollen up like a balloon.
They said that I had a concussion.
At first they were worried about whether or not I would actually remember anybody.
And I remember my parents and my husband and bringing in my son and everything.
And they wanted to know if I remembered who they were and different pieces of information because they didn't know at the time just how serious the head injury was.
Basically what happened is that instantly I was in this other world.
It was the most beautiful place I've ever been.
There's nothing on earth that even compares to the beauty of this place.
It was a very park-like setting, a lot of trees, kind of like a mountain landscape in the background, flowers all over, I remember, you know, kind of like Park benches and everything.
I don't remember actually seeing anyone else there besides my guides that I ended up meeting.
And shortly after that, you know, everything, like I said, you know, just irradiated love.
And I was just filled with the most intense feeling.
I guess finding the words is really hard to describe this, but it was a feeling of ecstasy, a feeling of really intense love, peace, tranquility, happiness.
And it was just, you know, just looking from above.
I didn't actually see my body in the car or anything like that.
It was just simply them, you know, their showing me was enough that, you know, that I instantly knew, I realized, you know, that this was actually, you know, this was truly what could happen.
You're on a ride this morning, all right, to the other side.
Young lady named Karen is with us, a school teacher, a mom, housewife, and somebody who went places that I sure haven't gone, and I imagine many of you as well.
So if your curiosity has been tweaked a little bit, then stay right where you are because we have only just begun.
All right, once again, my guest, Dr. Jeff Long, Dr. Tricia McGill, and Karen from Arizona is with us.
And Dr. McGill, you were going to add something.
We were talking during the break.
unidentified
No, I just wondered how many of your listeners realize that as they are listening to this woman's tale, that she was already told by the beings in heaven, if you will, that she was dead.
So basically, you're listening to a dead woman.
I mean, who better to tell somebody if they're going to live or die?
In other words, you weren't, some people seemed to be given choices to go back or to stay, and they weren't having that kind of conversation with you, Karen.
Well, basically, I started out telling you that there were three guides, and I really wanted to point out who my guides were because I feel that that's really important.
One of my guides, as I had said previously, was that it was my grandfather.
And his purpose was basically to help me move my human self into a spiritual self.
Okay, so anyway, so my grandfather was one of my guides to help me because he was someone that I had known in this human life to help connect me or help me shed my human life there.
The second guide was basically just one of my spirit guides throughout life, and he was basically the leader of all of this, about transitioning me from the human life to my past soul life.
And then the third guide was a spirit that I was supposed to have known previously in another life.
And I didn't remember who this person was.
It was a feminine spirit.
But they told me that as I began transitioning and that once I had completed that, that I would remember who the spirit was and that there would be many more spirits that I would meet as we went on, that I would recognize who they were and that the memories would come back.
But basically, all of the levels, including Earth, are connected with the spirit realms.
my understanding was that earth was the lowest um...
this place for us The place where I was at, this transition zone, was almost like a loading stock of sorts, you know, that this was a place where any spirits, you know, to go from the higher realms, if you were going to Earth, then you had to pass through this transition zone.
And then for those spirits that were going up, then you had to, you know, again, you had to pass through this area.
unidentified
Actually, I've heard that a lot.
That there is sort of like a transitioning plane, and you hang around there until you know which way you're going.
And so anyway, so I was told, you know, that as I transitioned, then I would get to learn about these other levels.
And that basically, you know, some of the learning that I had acquired on Earth would determine, you know, where I was able to go within this realm.
Let me think, what else?
I know that I had questioned the fact, even though I had seen the accident, why is it that I didn't remember it?
And I was told basically that my soul was taken out immediately because of the fact that it wasn't necessary for my soul to experience that death process.
And that sometimes in violent deaths, it's better for the soul to be taken out immediately so that it doesn't suffer any ill effects.
In really, really bad deaths, where we think people are suffering a great deal, actually their soul is taken out, and it's just a shell that's going through it.
I've only recently begun looking into trying to find other people who have had experiences like mine.
And what I found is that the reviews that I've heard of are basically in which they're shown their whole life.
But my review wasn't like that.
It was showing me the lessons that I had learned and what I had taught while I was here.
And I don't remember you know, I don't have any recollection of feeling pain.
I know that I had read Betty Eady's book and she had talked, you know, that she had felt all of this pain and everything that she had ever caused anybody.
And I don't remember feeling that it was just everything that I had learned and everything that I had taught to other, you know, to other people.
As I was listening to them talk and having them show me all of these different things, I began to think about the people that I had left behind.
And even though their voices, and it wasn't really voices, it was more like their thoughts, it seemed to be pulling me away from helping me to transition.
Yeah, well, the spirits in talking to me, my guides in talking to me, seemed to be pulling me away in just their talking.
But then I began to think about my husband and my son.
I had only had one child at the time, and he was about seven or eight months old.
And I was thinking about my mom, and I just thought, you know, the first one that I thought of was my son.
He was so young, and I just felt that I couldn't leave him.
My husband at the time had been working all the time.
He really didn't have much experience or patience in actually caring for a son.
And so I was really frightened about what was going to happen to him.
My mom, when I was growing up, she had always said that if anything ever happened to her children, then she would just climb into bed and she'd never get up again.
And running through my mind, it's like, you know, there's absolutely no way that I can be dead.
You know, these people, I need these people, and these people, I felt, needed me at the time.
And, you know, my husband, I was definitely concerned about him and how he would handle things.
And I was given an understanding as far as what would happen to them.
They were trying to tell me, you know, don't worry about it.
This is just your human side.
You're just having a difficult time getting rid of your human shell.
And just kind of relax and just kind of flow with it.
And listen to what we have to say.
And we'll show you what's going to happen to them.
And then that way you won't worry any longer.
And basically, my son was supposed to be, because my husband was working so much, my son would be taken care of by my mother and father-in-law until he was older.
And I began fighting and struggling with that issue.
And with my mom, I was shown that she would get through this, that my grandmother would actually help her in dealing with my loss and that everyone would be okay.
And they ended up proceeding to show me my funeral.
Basically, one of the reasons why they showed me my funeral was so that I could have an understanding that even though I was gone, I could still have a connection to my family members.
And so anyways, I was taken into this Chapel of Swords, wherever it was, and I remember seeing my caskets.
I didn't look at myself, but my mother was on the left-hand side with my sister and my father, and she just looked very, very gray.
And I was so upset by that.
And she was the first person that I went to.
And I was basically told that I could talk to them, but not to expect them to hear me or to know that I was there.
That there were some people, some humans that were sensitive enough that could sense the spirits or that could actually hear what I was saying.
My view on it is that from their point of view, they were doing something that they considered was right, that as a spirit form that was fully transitioned.
They didn't look upon this as something bad.
And actually, when they pulled me up above it all, basically they told me that Karen, I'll tell you what.
Our guest is Karen at the moment, along with Dr. Jeff Long and Dr. Trisha McGill.
Imart Bell, this is Coast to Coast.
The thing, this kind of thing we're doing right now is the kind of thing that you do after dark, and you do it for a lot of important reasons because people during the day can't absorb this kind of information.
They're too busy.
But at nighttime, somehow, you can.
All right, back now to Dr. Long, Dr. McGill, and Karen in Arizona.
Once they pulled me away from the funeral and we were up above everything again, it wasn't in the same spot with the park and everything.
It was almost more of an astral projection.
I remember just stars and blackness.
And I don't know where exactly we were, but that wasn't important because I wasn't focusing on that.
But once they pulled me back out of the funeral, then they started discussing with me again the purpose of life, the fact that we go down to earth because we have lessons to learn and we have lessons to teach, and that here my family had lessons that they were supposed to be learning from my death, and that because of that, then this was critical.
And they started telling me the fact that I was not going to, that once I had transitioned, I wouldn't see the pain that they were in as something that was bad and something that I felt sorry about, but it was going to be something that I was happy about.
That I would be happy to see that they're going through this grieving process.
Well, before I had incarnated on this earth, then before my birth, then I had chosen basically what my lessons were going to be and agreed upon a time when I was going to die.
As we were talking about the purpose of life and everything and the fact that my family members had lessons that they were to learn from it, I was still thinking and feeling very, very bad about leaving my son, Jake.
And I really felt sickened by this idea that they were giving me that I could somehow feel happiness over seeing them in so much pain.
And I didn't understand it then that I would see it as their spiritual growth, and therefore I would be happy about it.
That isn't to say that they don't have empathy for the pain that people go through here on earth.
It's just that they have this bigger picture than what we have.
And they know that if we're going through that grieving process or if we're struggling with cancer or whatever it is, if we've got suicidal thoughts, then we're dealing with parts of our spiritual growth that will eventually get us through and that it will work itself out in the end.
But, you know, as they were telling me, you know, this, that I would find happiness in seeing these struggles and these lessons that they were learning.
You know, like I said, I wasn't really going for that.
I didn't really believe, you know, I didn't really feel that that was right.
And I was upset still because I'd never see Jake walk.
I wouldn't hear him talk.
I wouldn't see him, you know, take him to school on his first day of kindergarten.
And so, you know, again, I became very upset and was crying.
And, you know, again, they were so, so patient in transitioning me.
And they kept reminding me that the feelings that I was having was simply because I was having a really difficult time shedding my human self.
But that, you know, give them patience, you know, relax and just go with it and let myself release my human self.
And then I would have a deeper understanding of things.
Again, in another way of trying to calm me, they told me that for a time being, I could enter the earth realm as a spirit to watch over my loved ones for as long as I felt was necessary.
Basically, as long as I felt that they were grieving.
And that would be okay, that I could appear before with my mom.
So Karen, unlike other near-death experiencers that are told, your time hasn't come, you need to go back, you are told, your time has come, you need to stay, you are dead.
And they were showing me ways in which my spirit then would live and foster.
And so they're telling me that I can stay here in the earth realm.
They also told me, though, that most spirits choose to only stay here for a very short time, such as just through the grieving process, because the longer that you stay, and the more connected that you are, and I'm going to use a word here that I don't really like very much,
but you end up, some spirits would be so connected that they would become lost, that they would forget about the reason why they had come down into the earth realm, and they wouldn't go back.
It's important for everybody to know that excessive grief is very harmful to the one you're grieving for because it holds them earthbound.
And if the grief goes on for a very long time, the longer they hang around the earth plane, the more they become, like you said, they go back into their earth ways and they sometimes will forget that grief and to try and die.
You know, as I was going through these waves of grieving over leaving Jake and then accepting heaven and all that it had to offer, when I would go back into that wave of grief again, then it was this idea, I can't do this.
I can't do this.
This can't be happening.
And it was more of a disbelief that it was happening.
And so back to what we were talking about, that they told me that I could come down here to the earth realm.
But they said they really didn't recommend that, especially for very long.
And that most actually stayed in this other realm, heaven if you want to call it that.
And basically that you could be from up there and watch everything that was happening very quickly, come and go, do what you want to do, and kind of peek in and see how your family members are doing from time to time.
It was really up to you, but most actually preferred just to stay above and to keep track of their family members from that way.
And they knew that I was still upset over leaving Jake.
And then when he came back to live with my husband, with his dad, then he was dealing with his lot in life, his path, was a very difficult one that had been chosen.
And many rocks along the way.
And he was very temperamental and having some difficulty.
My husband didn't quite have the patience, but that's to be expected, though, because of the fact that he wasn't really raising my son from the time that he was a baby.
So he hadn't really learned that patience with him.
Yeah, especially like I had said before, you know, around seven or eight when my husband was to get remarried, that's when I especially found it disagreeable because I didn't like the way that his new stepmother was going to be taking for him.
I didn't like it at all, you know, and I became so upset again and cried and, you know, I couldn't let this happen to my son.
No, they were, like I said, you know, they were so patient and they were so loving.
And they were just trying, you know, any way.
It was just they just didn't give up in teaching.
I know, you know, some teachers, you know, they try and get through to a student and they try many different methods.
But then when the methods that they know don't work, you know, they kind of throw up their hands.
And these teachers, these guides, it was Like they had this multitude of things that they were willing to try anything in order to help me release myself.
We started talking again so that they could continue this transition.
They talked to me about the tasks and challenges that Jake was going to face, that he had actually chosen this path, that he had very valuable lessons to learn and to teach to progress the growth of his spirit, and that because of that, that I needed to accept to allow him to continue on this path.
And we talked about religion, and because I had seen such a difference in the way that the spirit realm was set up than what I had believed, I found that some of the things that I knew, that I felt I knew about the afterlife were totally wrong.
And some things that I questioned existed that they were actually true.
And it was basically that all religions of the world have some aspect of truth about the afterlife.
But that they disagree upon many different ways and how it actually functions.
And I question how is that possible?
Why, if they all have these components of truth, why don't we just go and why can't the spirits just find some way to blend all these religions into one?
Why is it that there had to be so many and that there had to be so many disagreements?
Yeah, and the reason was that the various religions were important to help spirits on their spiritual path.
That if a person chooses to be an atheist, if that is their path that they chose before they incarnated to earth, then that was going to be very vital to the decisions and to their belief system that impacted their decisions that they made in their life here.
And if someone was a very devout Catholic or a Buddhist, that belief system there was going to move them along that path of learning and understanding that certainly, you know, and this was for all of the lessons that we had to learn, not just dealing with religion, but there's a part here I don't understand.
And it was basically spirits in heaven, you know, they can learn or book read, whatever you want to call it.
They can look at a situation or a lesson and understand it, but they don't really get this full comprehension unless they experience it.
And so that's why we choose to come to earth and then we take on these various personalities and beliefs and everything so that we can get a full comprehension of what this feeling or what this action is like.
And then we talked about there were some aspects of karma and hell and everything that I was shown.
And I wasn't shown, unlike some NDEs that I've read, where there's actually a hell that exists, the fire and brimstones it down from.
And what I was shown was that it doesn't actually exist, that it's something that if we don't live the life that we're supposed to, if we haven't learned the lessons, if we've chosen to be this evil person and we choose all the wrong things instead of trying to follow this path that we're on,
then when we die and we go to heaven, instead of being shown all these wonderful things, then what ends up happening to us is that we're sent back down to Earth without the choice of making the decisions of what lessons we want to learn.
New lessons are, or it's basically the same lessons are forced upon us, but in a much more difficult way.
You know, it all revolved around the fact that I just could not give him up.
And basically, it got to the point that after all of these things that they were showing me, I felt myself on the brink of no return, that I had this choice that I was willing to take full acceptance of my death and make my final transition, or I wasn't.
And when I felt myself at that point, I just became so hysterical.
I just could not bear the thought of leaving Jacob behind.
Even though they had shown me that I could watch over him, that I could see all the things that I wanted to see, I just wanted to be here with him.
I needed him so much.
And I began crying so hysterically that immediately after this hysteria began, I felt this, almost like this arm.
I have a really difficult time explaining it.
It's almost like a wing, just wrapping me up.
I was thinking about a way how I could explain it.
In the movie, is it King Kong?
How the gorilla grabs the woman up and she's just all in this gorilla's hand.
And I felt that I was just completely enveloped by this higher being, higher than what my spirit guides were.
And I felt this immediate sense of love and compassion and peace.
And I was told, it's okay, don't worry about it.
My spirit guides were told to allow me to return.
And they actually began arguing a little bit about it, that I was almost there, I was almost through the transition, that they needed just a little bit longer, and then my spirit would be whole.
And this higher being said no, that they felt, or this being felt that because it was taking me so long to transition, that they didn't believe that my spirit would actually be at rest,
that they feared that if I chose to come down to the earth realm that I could become one of those lost, that I would stay stuck here so that I could be around them as much, that I would become this ghost here on earth, following around my family members.
And so they didn't want that for me.
They didn't want to take that chance.
And so they said, you know, it was better to allow me to come back and to just rearrange the lessons that were to be learned and some of the situations or postpone some of the situations that were to happen and to let, you know, to make the arrangements to come back.
Yes, actually what ended up happening is that it was part of my return in deciding what my lessons were to be.
I was thinking, as this higher being was saying, let them return, I was telling them, I was thinking of reasons why they should let me return.
Not just because I need to be with my son, but because when my mom died, not when my mom died, but when my grandmother died, then I could share with my mom what I knew about heaven.
And that way I could provide some sense of peace to her.
I guess so at that point, I guess I kind of, you know, I was trying to make sure that they also agreed to it, you know, that they didn't continue arguing and then talk this higher being into letting me stay.
And, you know, and I wanted to use, you know, I said, you know, that I could use what I know, all the knowledge that they had given me to help others.
And it was basically, you know, mostly for those people who were grieving.
And we ended up working on what my new lessons were going to be in coming back.
Well, I was told that many of the things that I had been taught that there were things that I was not supposed to bring back with me, that they would have to be taken away because there were things that as humans we just can't know.
The last thing that I actually remember was being placed above the accident site and looking down upon it.
And I was wondering, you know, the last thought came into my mind, well, you know, how much longer do I have with my son?
You know, that way I know how long that I have and I can really enjoy every time that I have.
And I was told, you know, when your children are older.
And at the time I only had one child.
And I said, you know, at first I was more than accepting of that grace, you know, when they're older.
And then just before my departure, I thought, wait a minute, you know, what does that mean?
Does older mean when he's 3?
Does it mean when he's 8?
Does it mean when he's 16 or what?
Will I see grandchildren and all that stuff like you had said?
And again, it was just reiterated that when they're older, it isn't for you to know when your time is because then you'll focus on how much time you have left rather than really focusing on learning your lessons and enjoying your life and living your life the way that you're supposed to.
They said that, you know, the paramedics basically said that this truck must have hit me hard enough or jarred the car just right to hit the little sensors because that part where the sensors are actually at were not even touched.
So I have never heard of an NDE where I don't want to minimize this in any way, but where if the person complained enough, they went back.
That is what we're talking about here, really, isn't it?
unidentified
In other words, where she was told that her time was up, that she needed to stay there, and yet, unlike other NDEs where they're told your time's not up, Karen's time was up.
She was really ready to make the transition, but she's here today, Art, and talking with you.
I wonder how many of your listeners would walk away from heaven.
I mean, from see that love, that connection, know that that's home, be with the ones that they knew that they were supposed to be with before life and after life, and walk.
And when you hear her emotions breaking right under the surface, it is very hard to believe that this is anything less than true in form and substance.
And I would agree with that.
But then we get this.
Once again, the deceivers have created a dupe to pass on their BS.
unidentified
Research committee of the largest near-death study organization in the world, the International Association for Near-Death Studies, they've listened to us, processed us, and said, hey, these people are credible.
They have integrity, they have decency, and they have honesty.
So that's one reason.
Secondly, as a physician, my entire goal has been to simply bring the truth to the surface, to do the right thing.
And that's been part of my spiritual walk, too.
I mean, those of you listeners that heard me when I talked last time, that's what I'm all about.
That's what Trisha's all about, too.
I can understand that's a fantastic account, but I challenge any listener to listen to Karen, to listen to Sarah, who we had on before, and believe that they're both.
I mean, I think the truth is just simply self-evident to anybody that listens to that.
Not only that, but I want whoever is out there that thinks this is fraudulent to know that we're not making one penny on any of this.
We fund both OBIRF and INDERF.
We have two websites.
We fund it strictly out of our own pockets.
I give away my time as a psychologist to do free grief counseling with anybody that needs it or to help people who are terminally ill and to help those who've had NDEs and are having a hard time getting back adjusted.
But the one reservation I have, and it haunts me like a ghost, is whether a dead or dying mind, more accurately, I guess a dying mind, in a very short amount of time indeed, is capable itself of producing all that we heard from both of these young ladies.
And I don't doubt them for one second.
So the only argument that Art Bell has inside himself is not whether they were telling us what they really believe is true, but whether it could have been a function of a living and in the process of dying brain of somebody who made it.
I mean, that's the reasonable doubt that one might have.
unidentified
And I'm glad you brought that up because some of your other listeners may have that too.
Art, I can speak to you as a medical doctor about the possible alternate explanations of the near-death experience.
What about hypoxia?
Lowered blood oxygen is a reduced result of reduced blood flow to the brain from being in a life-threatening event.
When you have reduced blood flow to the brain, or hypoxia or reduced brain oxygen, that results in every single time I have ever seen this in my medical career, and I'm sure other doctors will back this up, the result is confusion.
The result is a very imprecise sense of what's going on.
It's nowhere near the kind of lucid, detailed events that any near-death experiencer has ever described to me could ever do.
Okay, that's one.
Number two, another alternate explanation proposed by some skeptics is that of brain chemistry.
Well, what about endorphins?
You know, long-term distance runners get this runner's high.
Well, that's been attributed to the brain chemical, so-called endorphins.
Nobody has ever, with any endogenous, which means naturally produced, or exogenous, which means exogenously or delivered externally, drug, has ever produced the kind of consistency and persistency of near-death experiences ever.
Well, that indeed is another example of probably the best candidate of something that might produce a near-death experience, and it is simply not panning out.
There's no question about that.
Near-death experiences are unique.
There's nothing that we've encountered.
In fact, I talked to one of the leading pharmacologists in the world, and the source would surprise you and your listening audience.
I won't identify them.
But a pharmacologist studies the effects of chemicals on the brain.
And this very, very prominent pharmacologist, who nearly won a Nobel Prize, assures me there has never been a drug that's been administered that ever produced to any consistent degree the effects of any elements of a near-death experience.
Doctor, I have heard that some scientists doing experimentation with electrical stimulation of parts of the brain have been able to produce some aspects of an NDE, the tunnel and white light experience.
unidentified
You're talking about some of the neurosurgical experiments that were done in the early 1950s, and I think a lot of that's kind of gotten a little bit overblown.
All that ever happened is that there were some very rare, transient, inconsistent, and certainly not reproducible senses of peace or light or love sort of as a single event, but nothing, nothing like any near-death experience that I or Tricia or any one of your other listeners that have ever heard a near-death experience, Sarah, have ever heard.
I said that I had a theory, and this came strictly out of my own head.
I mean, I didn't read it anywhere or get it from anybody else, that there is probably sense, let's just assume that there is a creator, okay?
If this creator is powerful enough to make us and to make our brains, isn't it possible that he would also create a sense of us letting him know that we were in the process of coming over?
That is, i.e., a trigger.
That would trigger the beginnings of an NDE and that at some point in time, a spiritual event would just take over.
In other words, I don't see that that is so unrealistic.
Nor do I. And I think that if you look at it that way, there could be triggers.
There could be triggers that start an NDE, but that at some point in time, God takes over.
It's a God thing, Art.
I really think it's a good thing.
Listeners, it's a God thing.
No matter what the Trigger, no matter what the pre-existing condition, you cannot have a Sarah, you can't have a Karen, you can't have any of the near-death experiencers descriptions that me and Trish have heard, the scores and scores, the hundreds, unless it were a God thing.
Both of you, should we, I repeat again, should we be studying this?
unidentified
Yes.
Oh, well, let me tell you something.
Trisha and I have spent a huge amount of time studying this because we perceive it's important, it's significant, it's reproducible, it meets scientific evidential criterion in the sense that it is reproducible, it is studiable.
If a person can come back from an NDE and totally changed from being a selfish, greedy, egotistical, SOB type of person and has an NDE and comes back and they're 100% different, they go around feeling love towards everyone and they lose all this materialistic, you know, greedy behavior and they become more spiritual and they live a better life.
My gosh, how can you change the world except one person at a time?
I've been trying to get through to you a long time.
And hi, Dr. Long and Dr. McGill.
Greetings.
Hi.
Yeah, I'm thinking about your earlier statement about the prisoners, about the unethical part of it.
I'm thinking about the positive side of taking a person that is totally rotten and transforming them, as you say, into a person that's totally committed to something good.
Like, I'm reading what Sarah says.
She says at the very end, I have a great wish that everyone could experience the wonders that I have without having to suffer the trauma that I did, for it would transform the world.
I'd like your comments.
I'd be happy to, Larry.
I think the real critical thing is that the transformative things that Sarah or Karen or any other near-death experiencer experiences is not so much from their own power or from the power of others that induced their death.
It's a God thing.
And I think anytime, anytime in the history of mankind that we've attempted to short-circuit or play God, it's failed.
And it's failed miserably and very often had the opposite effect.
I think to the extent that we allow God to play out with us what we're supposed to learn, and listen to what Karen had to say.
We have lessons to learn.
There's a sequence in which they're supposed to be learned.
It's planned.
It's of a higher power far beyond what we can conceive.
And I think that's really what the message is.
I think anytime we try to short-circuit those lessons or to play God, if you will, not only are we doomed to failure, but I think we're going to cause a great deal of problems.
And I know Tricia's got some comments on this.
Yes, I feel that I would like everybody to experience the good parts of an NDE without having to come close to the trauma of dying or of taking drugs, which could also lead to their death or possibly impair them in other ways.
And I mention it in an article on NDERF, which is www.nderf.org.
I have an article called Life, Death, NDE, and Beyond.
In that, I really make a strong case for meditation And the importance of meditation, especially the last of about 28 pages of work that I put into this article.
I think that if you can meditate, if you can teach yourself how to have an out-of-the-body experience, like my friend Al Taylor does on a regular basis, it proves to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that mankind is dual in his nature.
He's not only physical, but he is spiritual.
The consciousness can leave the body.
If you can prove that to yourself, then maybe you can take it one step further and go into the heavenly realms and see what it's all about and come back.
There are people that claim they can do that through meditation, through the use of being able to have an out-of-the-body experience.
We have a new website, by the way, which is dedicated to the out-of-the-body experience.
So his question was simply, how do you explain that?
unidentified
You know, I really wish I had a good answer for that.
There's a lot of mystery that we face with near-death experience research, and that's one of them.
I don't really, and Tricia doesn't really know why seven out of ten people that come close to death don't have a near-death experience.
And we were talking earlier about that.
Possibly it's because they may have actually had an experience but don't remember it.
And probably the best indication whether they've had a near-death experience that they remember or a near-death experience that they don't remember is what happens for the rest of their life.
Are they changed?
Have they become more loving, more spiritual, more godly?
I think anybody that's had that kind of change in their life, whether they remember it or not, has probably had a near-death experience.
She was not allowed to bring back some of her knowledge.
Why?
Because it wasn't good for mankind to know.
Some people, I don't think they could handle it.
I'm treating several people now who've had MDEs, and they are really, I'm sorry to say this, but they really messed up because they felt like, oh, heaven was so wonderful, and they were forced out, and they feel like they've been kicked out of heaven, and it's a really bad feeling, and they're having a hard time getting back into normal life.