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June 3, 1999 - Art Bell

02:01:05

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Jeffrey Long & Tricia McGill - NDEs

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	Talk with Dr. Jeff Long and Dr. Tricia McGill and then down line a little bit.
	We're going to talk to a young lady.
	They brought us Sarah.
	Remember Sarah with her NDE?
	Well they've got more to say about Sarah and I've got a couple of questions for them too.
	No doubt questions that will cause them to squirm a little bit in their seats.
	So we'll get to all of that coming up directly ahead.
	Okay.
	Dr. Jeff Long, a medical doctor, is a physician specializing in something very mainstream, radiation oncology, the use of radiation to treat cancer.
	He's developed the website devoted to NDEs at www.nderf.org and we've got a link to that on my website now.
	It is one of the world's premier NDE websites.
	Serves on the board of directors of IANDS, the International Association for Near-Death Studies, and chairman of the research committee of the International Association of Near-Death Studies.
	Then we also have Tricia McGill, a licensed clinical psychologist, who holds a PhD in hypnotherapy.
	And she's occasionally done her own radio talk show.
	Regarding psychology issues in the past has talked with scores of NDE experiencers has published many of their experiences in yet another website www.nderf.org and you don't have to really remember those just go up to my website and go down to the guest area and click on Dr. Long's website or Dr. McGill's website and you can do a lot of reading and you're going to want to they're the ones who brought us Sarah Who had what I consider to be the most articulate, spellbinding description of an NDE that I've ever heard in my whole life.
	They've got another young lady they're going to bring on a little later in the show here.
	Who's going to tell you about her experience.
	But first, let us bring them both on the air.
	Hello, you two.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	All right.
	It's good.
	One's female, one's male.
	No trouble telling the differences in the voices.
	Good.
	That's always good.
	All right.
	You had some news, and I know you've got some news about Sarah, which I know my audience is really going to be interested in.
	But first, I want to ask you about something, and I think Trisha, you know what's coming.
	I don't know, Art.
	I'm not a mind reader.
	Go ahead.
	I can take any kind of squirmy thing you throw my way.
	Good.
	Here it comes.
	You know that I got a message from somebody in France.
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, yes.
	So now you know what's coming, right?
	Now I know what's coming.
	And apparently in Scandinavia or in France, I'm not sure where, you were invited to participate In an experiment, basically a flatliners experiment, a real one in which prisoners would be used, presumably volunteers, to produce, to let them go flatline, in other words, actually stop all their processes, I don't know by what means, and have a real NDE,
	And then bring them back to life, if you could.
	And the ones that you couldn't.
	Well, we'll get to that part.
	And then see if the near-death experience, with its reported full life review, would change their criminal behavior.
	Isn't that about right?
	Well, actually...
	I don't believe there was anything so noble as to try to change their criminal behavior, although that would be, to me, one of the major interests.
	It definitely has possibilities, because after a life review, most people do change for the better.
	They are much more spiritual, less materialistic, loving, and generally good people.
	To me, that would be an interesting thing.
	These people didn't tell us initially what they had in mind.
	They kind of hooked us first.
	How did they hook you?
	Well, they hooked us by saying that they had a way of producing an artificial, or let's put it this way, a controlled NDE.
	And they didn't tell us how until much later on.
	They didn't mention the flatliners?
	No, no.
	How would they have done it, Tricia?
	Did they tell you?
	Well, actually, let Jeff tell you this part, because he's a medical doctor.
	Dr. Long, how would they have done this, doctor?
	Yeah, medically, I was intrigued with how they planned to induce an NDE with these prisoners.
	They were going to induce a cardiac arrest.
	As I recall, it would have been electrical stimulation in the area of the heart to the point that the heart stopped beating, and then as a result, they would have a cardiac arrest and clinical death by cessation of the heart and cessation of breathing.
	As a matter of morbid curiosity, How long in the series of experiments were they planning to let people be clinically dead?
	That's a good question.
	I think the end point that they discussed with us after some prodding would have been at least the induction of clinical death for a while, you know, i.e.
	several minutes.
	After several minutes of cessation of heart function and breathing, you can resuscitate the person in a very, very high probability with very low risk of damage.
	But I think that was what they were planning to do, and then see if they had a near-death experience.
	Wow!
	Really, truly, at least up until one point, what they did in flatliners.
	I think that's kind of where they got the idea, maybe.
	And you see, I brought up the question, well, now wait a minute, let me understand what you're saying here.
	You plan on taking people to the point of actual clinical death.
	Yes.
	And then you're hoping to revive them?
	Yes.
	I said, what happens if they don't revive?
	I mean, are we talking about, you know, resuscitation or resurrection here?
	And they said, well, if you lose a few, it's no big deal.
	They sign a permission that no matter what happens, they don't hold you liable.
	And so what if you lose a few prisoners along the way?
	And I was just flabbergasted.
	I didn't even I don't want to talk to him any further, but for the sake of politeness, I said, well, you know, I don't think we're really interested in that because it sounds just a little bit too unethical and altogether too frightening, and I don't think we should play God like that.
	Well, now, let me ask you both.
	After talking to them, which you obviously did, and yeah, I can understand why you would be intrigued, certainly, and why they would have hooked you.
	Oh, yeah, we were hooked, you know, right away.
	Is it your impression that they intend to go ahead with this with or without you?
	Well, I think the good news is that they needed some funding and they were looking for us for
	some funding and some support.
	And we were not willing to do that.
	We, like virtually all near-death experience researchers, are highly ethical, and we really want no part of research like that.
	Nonetheless, they seem very determined in their efforts to seek out funds and seek out support for research like that.
	I don't have to do anything further yet.
	Doctor, let me put it this way.
	Is it your impression that if they find the funding, they will go ahead without you?
	Oh, yeah.
	I'm concerned that they will make an effort and go ahead without us if they can.
	Yes, I think so.
	That's absolutely incredible.
	Yeah.
	I knew it.
	I knew this was going to be done.
	It seems like anything we can think of, we're going to do eventually.
	Despite societal restrictions or mores or whatever, we're going to go ahead and do it and nothing really is going to stop it, right?
	I hope that it's stopped.
	I hope it's stopped by ethical people that won't provide the money, by ethical prisoners that won't subject themselves to experiments like that.
	However, all that having been said, I understand you're on the side of the white light, doctors, but after they've completed the experiments and they've written the report, having done this on, say, a hundred patients, having lost, say, five in the process, how anxious would you both be To read the report.
	Honest answers, please.
	Obviously, I would be interested in seeing what they did.
	I'd read about it.
	I think there's a precedent in history that the work that they do may not be published and widely distributed.
	The Nazis did some exceedingly unethical medical, so-called medical research, and while the results were of some, quote, medical value, unquote, in general, they were suppressed and not circulated because of the highly unethical nature of the experiments.
	I think... Yeah, well, maybe not widely distributed in, you know, in private areas, but you can bet our government agencies who wanted to know No.
	Wouldn't you agree?
	It would be very interesting.
	I think the nature of work like that would be fantastic enough that just out of plain interest, I think virtually anybody would want to see what happened.
	Yeah, they did a lot with twins.
	Oh, the Nazis?
	Yeah.
	Like what?
	Well, I'm trying to remember now what they did, but they took twins and would, like, torture one and see if they'd get a reaction out of the other one in a separate room.
	Good Lord, really?
	Yeah, it was really bizarre.
	And they also did biological experiments on twins.
	Unethical research has a tragically long history like that, I regret to say.
	This isn't the first time ideas like that for unethical research have been brought up.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	But you know, also I believe it is fair to say that some knowledge that obviously would not have been gained otherwise was gained.
	Now where that knowledge now rests, I would have no idea, but there was obviously some knowledge gained that is locked in a vault somewhere.
	Oh, I wouldn't doubt it.
	It could be.
	I think the philosophy is that if they're that unethical in pursuing that type of research, then they don't have any particular credibility in terms of the results.
	Well, these Scandinavian countries, with regard to a lot of things, have very different laws.
	I mean, for example, it is legal to assist in suicide in some of those countries.
	It's just plain legal.
	It's a practiced, everyday thing.
	They do it.
	Dr. Kevorkian, I know where you can go.
	Well, not anymore.
	Actually, he's behind bars.
	It makes it a little tough now.
	Yeah, that's right.
	He probably doesn't have a passport in hand.
	But in those countries, they do have those different laws.
	And it seems to me, in a volunteer situation, one can imagine the law would allow this to go on with respect to volunteering prisoners.
	Yes?
	There's other international conventions regarding obtaining informed consent for human studies and that was set up in the Geneva Convention.
	And you know, I guess arguably, yes, you could find prisoners that give informed consent for even such an experiment.
	I know where you're heading with this, Art, and unfortunately, I think you're right.
	As you mentioned earlier, if something theoretically can be done, sooner or later... Somebody's going to do it.
	Somebody's going to do it under the table or behind closed doors, but if they can get the funding for it, I'm sure this group is going to go ahead with this.
	And I'm sure the way they present it to the prisoners is that it's, you know, possibly has some slight risk, but...
	Yes.
	They could have suicidal prisoners anyway that wouldn't mind it.
	Art, for your sake and your listeners sake, if we hear anything further about that, you'll be the first to know.
	Right.
	We'll keep you informed.
	Well, are you in the loop of information or did you utterly divorce yourself?
	We utterly divorced ourselves.
	You didn't even say, here's my email address, I'd like to know what happens?
	No.
	We didn't want to even encourage him to that slight degree because we thought what they were proposing was Unethical.
	Yeah, to the max.
	So we wouldn't hear about it directly, but we have a lot of connections, including international connections, and our website helps us to maintain that.
	So if it's going on anywhere, folks that are interested in near-death experience anywhere in the world are going to hear about that and hopefully let us know.
	Boy.
	We have ways of finding out.
	That is really wild stuff, you two.
	All right, you do have information, more, or an update on Sarah, right?
	You bet.
	All right, when I come back, I want to ask Dr. Long very briefly, since oncology is his stock and trade, about Terrence McKenna.
	So we'll do that, and we'll talk a bit about Sarah, and we have a young lady coming up you're definitely going to want to hear from, believe me.
	I'm Art Bell.
	From the high desert, where you're liable to hear just about anything in the night time, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	If you were a career criminal, and you had a life sentence, no possibility of parole, would you volunteer for an experiment like that?
	Go to the other side for a few minutes, see what it's like.
	Come back and tell us.
	Probably come back.
	Dr. Jeff Long is a radiation oncology physician.
	Dr. Tricia McGill is a licensed clinical psychologist with a PhD in hypnotherapy.
	In a moment, they'll be right back and we'll ask about Terrence McKenna.
	We may not get an answer, but we'll ask.
	Top of the evening or morning to you, wherever you are.
	Great to have you along.
	Let us go back now to our guests, Dr. Long and Dr. McGill.
	Are you two there?
	Yes.
	Good, good, good.
	Terrence McKenna is one of the most brilliant, articulate, philosophically fascinating people I've ever known in my life.
	I have interviewed him many, many times.
	I was planning to go to Hawaii to see him, so we're pretty close.
	Well, the other day, out of the blue, he began to go into convulsions.
	They rushed him to the hospital.
	They found a apparently extremely aggressive type of malignant tumor in his frontal lobe, the frontal lobe area of his brain.
	The prognosis was not good at all.
	He might have from days to weeks, six weeks, and maybe at best a few months to live, period.
	That's the prognosis.
	Yesterday, Dr. Long, he went through the gamma knife operation, which reportedly removed reasonably, without damaging other tissue, about 90% of the tumor.
	And he appears to be just fine, other than having a big headache, as you might imagine he would.
	He seems to be okay.
	Would the fact that they got 90% of the tumor in the frontal lobe area, doctor, very likely mean very much in terms of the long-term prognosis?
	I'm assuming from what you've told me that this is one of the most aggressive primary brain tumors called a glioblastoma.
	Yes.
	And certainly the more of that, that rings a bell, that's what we're talking about.
	Yes, sir.
	That indeed is a very poor prognosis.
	The fact that they were able to get that much of it with a gamma knife is certainly helpful.
	The more you can shrink the tumor, then the better is his chances for living.
	A little bit longer, living a little bit healthier.
	Both, of course, are important endpoints.
	Sure.
	The gamma knife is actually a series of over a hundred different arrays of a radioactive source beaming a radiation down to a focused area.
	It's something that I do with my radiation oncology practice, and it's a good way to treat tumors.
	I thought you might be familiar with it.
	Yes, I am.
	But I've also heard that these tumors are capable, they're so malignant, they're capable of returning to their original size virtually in a week or so.
	That's pushing it in terms of recurrence, that if, indeed, this is a glioblastoma, the chances of curing it are extremely poor.
	The survival rate of this very aggressive type of brain tumor is less than 1%.
	I've only seen one person in my life who was a long-term, i.e., greater than 5-year survivor.
	1%?
	Yeah.
	1%?
	If it's a glioblastoma, and from all you're telling me, it certainly sounds like it.
	Yeah.
	1%.
	Yeah.
	Well, that'd be a hard one to take.
	Well, anyway.
	You know what, Art?
	It's interesting.
	This Terrence McKenna, I heard about Terrence McKenna just this past Sunday.
	I was at a National Institute for Discovery Science meeting we have here in Las Vegas, and a group of us sat down right at 2 o'clock, and I think there was a lot of people all around the country that were doing that right at 2 o'clock.
	I announced the heck out of it.
	That's what we were doing, and at that time we all sat down and we prayed for him.
	the group that we had going there in our news group.
	Thank you. People over a large part of the world did that.
	I call it grand experiment number eight. It's worth a try, even if it's only 1%.
	So I appreciate your participation in that.
	Thank you.
	You've had good luck with your other seven grand experiments and we're certainly hoping... We have.
	We may be pushing the envelope this time, but we had to try.
	All right, listen.
	YouTube brought to us the most interesting NDE I've ever heard.
	Sarah's NDE.
	And by the way, I hope the young lady that we're going to bring on in the next half hour, Karen, is still awake.
	Stay awake, Karen.
	We're getting to the end of the next half hour.
	Hang in there, Karen.
	You've got some news for me, don't you, on Sarah.
	Yes, I do.
	And, Keith, would you please put Sarah's NDE back up there one more time so anybody who hasn't heard it can go to my website and hear it at your convenience over the weekend.
	This is an incredible story.
	I mean, it should be told everywhere.
	Everybody should hear what Sarah had to say.
	It was so amazing.
	I agree.
	Let's leave it up for as long as we can.
	Yep.
	What's the news?
	Okay, well, do I need to kind of give a thumbnail sketch of what happened?
	Go right ahead.
	It's a long, intricate, articulate story, but I'll make it as fast as I can.
	Sarah was bicycling home from a volunteer position at a church in the evening.
	She was hit by a pickup truck traveling around 50 miles an hour.
	She and the bike were slammed against the truck and she was thrown 60 feet into the air, had major physical damages.
	Next thing she knew, she was floating.
	She noticed a hum and sort of a pinprick of light way off in the distance and she was just in this void and then she saw a first what she considered to be a demonic creature surrounded by flames with huge eyes and teeth and it started running towards her and she just didn't know what to do.
	She told me she just froze in fear and the thing went right through her and as it went through her it was laughing.
	And it popped kind of out of her back is the way she put it.
	Two more creatures with different colors came by and she just stood her ground and the same thing happened.
	Then the next thing she saw was a tunnel.
	She went into the entrance of the very black tunnel and she could see there were doorways on both sides.
	She popped into the first doorway, actually she was sort of sucked into it as she called it, and she saw a traditional form of hell.
	fire and brimstone torture type and she looked at everything and was quite repulsed and said
	well I'm out of here and she left at the same time she noticed that she had lost her astral
	body and she had become a blue white sort of a star is what she called herself.
	And she said there were other stars that were blue and some amber ones in the same tunnel.
	Then she went to another doorway across maybe or just down a ways from the first one and
	it with a different form of hell.
	It was the kind where everybody walked around in a deep depression, bumping into each other, but seemingly totally absorbed in their own misery, and very depressing landscape, nothing lived, everything was very dead, and that sort of thing.
	And she said, oh, this is not for me either, and she left on her own free will.
	Next thing she did, she came to a doorway in which there was a heaven-like scene, and she came in and saw a being of light, and she says, I'm here!
	And the being of light says, Great!
	And she looked around there, and after a while she just kind of got bored with all the wonderful bliss and love, and I can't imagine anybody getting bored in it, but that's what happened.
	So she said, I'm leaving!
	And the being of light said, Great!
	And it rang out with happiness and bliss, and then she went into another one that was even more glorious, another kind of a doorway, but she couldn't get into it.
	She said that there was like saran wrap over this door, and she bumped her little star nose into it, and then she heard a voice behind her that basically said, you can't go in there, you don't know enough to go in there yet.
	Well, to make it as short as possible, She ended up going back to rejoin her son.
	That was what brought her back.
	She's had many years of therapy.
	A completely paralyzed right arm that she has to move around with her left arm.
	Wow.
	And I mean, in order to get it to move at all, she has to do that.
	So the physical damage is still... Severe.
	Yeah.
	She still has constant pain.
	She's on medication every day.
	Every day.
	Anyway, after this NDE, and it was such an unusual NDE that, you know, we brought her on your show.
	Gosh, before we even got off the air, we had maybe a dozen emails from people saying, this sounds exactly like a Tibetan Buddhist, you know, what they describe in the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
	Right.
	Well, frankly, I admit that I had not read the Tibetan Book of the Dead because I was too busy reading, you know, American NDE-type books and research and so forth, and I never got into Tibetan.
	Well, you've got to imagine, always the possibility that they could be right and we could be wrong.
	Mm-hmm.
	Right?
	There's no doubt about it.
	But see, it piqued my curiosity.
	I'm thinking, wait a minute, wait a minute.
	All these people are saying this sounds exactly like a Tibetan Buddhist.
	Yes.
	So what gives here?
	I asked Sarah immediately upon getting these emails.
	I said, Sarah, have you ever read anything about Tibetan Buddhism?
	Good question.
	She looked very blank.
	No.
	Did you even hear anybody ever talk about it?
	No.
	Do you care about it?
	No.
	In other words, no, no, no, no.
	I got you.
	She could care less.
	Well, anyway, and I checked with her husband separately, and he confirmed everything she said, so I knew she didn't have the first clue.
	So, I am a licensed hypnotherapist.
	I have a Ph.D.
	in it.
	I could have, you know, easily worked with her and put her into a past life regression to see if that might have anything to do with it, but instead I decided not to contaminate the study, but to go to two People who had no prior knowledge of the situation and I wasn't going to, you know, in any way influence what was going on.
	So the first one worked with her and got an interesting result.
	The second one worked with her and after about, oh gosh, I lost track, maybe seven or eight other kinds of past life events, we finally came up with one that was a Buddhist He was a Tibetan Buddhist monk that was beheaded.
	That was beheaded?
	Beheaded.
	And we think that that maybe somehow has some kind of a connection with her Tibetan Buddhist entity.
	Now, that's a mind blower.
	Yeah, that is a mind blower.
	He was quite shaken too, and we taped it all.
	We've got it on tape, and I can even have you talk to one of the hypnotherapists who's here with us now.
	Holy mackerel!
	So you've got all this on tape?
	Yes, I do.
	Do you have anybody's permission to play selected portions of that, or is that proprietary?
	You know what?
	I did not think to ask Sarah, but I think she may be listening to this broadcast.
	I told her a couple days ago we were going to be on, so perhaps she's hearing this now.
	She might just agree to it, and we could put it on another future broadcast.
	Indeed.
	Boy, is that fascinating.
	In this lifetime, no connection whatsoever.
	But in a prior lifetime, she was a beheaded monk.
	A young one, too.
	Do you remember when the Chinese overran Tibet and murdered literally thousands of people?
	Yes, of course, yes.
	From the best idea of time that we can get, this is what happened.
	They, the Chinese, were just slaughtering.
	But, oh, Tricia, what... Let's, for the sake of discussion, for either one of you, let's say this is absolutely true.
	In other words, that's why she had the NDE of the nature she had.
	What does that say, then, about, you know, the nature of our soul?
	I mean, suppose in this life, what religion was there?
	I don't know if you ever told us.
	I think she was a traditional, you know, like Baptist.
	Baptist.
	Oh, Baptist.
	Alright, very strict beliefs.
	Yeah, really.
	Very traditional.
	Yeah, very traditional.
	I mean, they don't bring up any other.
	So she dies.
	Believe me, I know, they don't bring up any other ideas.
	So she dies.
	She dies.
	And she does not go to the traditional Baptist afterlife.
	She goes to something from a prior life.
	What does that suggest about our spirits, our souls?
	Our very current consciousness, that's really something.
	It is.
	It's the most unusual NDE we have ever collected.
	I think Jeff's bursting at the seams to tell you about it.
	Yeah, I think to help answer your question, both me and Tricia were flabbergasted.
	When we got the results on this, this is absolutely amazing.
	Yes!
	And especially to use somebody who is totally independent of the two of us to do the past life regression to try to reduce any risk of bias in terms of leading her.
	Neither Tricia nor I had heard of the Tibetan Book of the Dead until after our last broadcast on your show and then, oh my gosh, did your very astute listeners clue us in on what that was all about and then we had a chance to read it.
	I think you have to understand that in Tibetan customs they spend a great deal of time sort
	of processing what they are supposed to do when they die.
	That is put down in writing in the Tibetan Book of the Dead and it sort of gives the
	imagery of what they are supposed to expect.
	So as a Buddhist monk Sarah would have had a great deal of time and energy and effort
	expended in her training and understanding as to this is the imagery as to what to expect
	when she dies.
	I think that probably had something to do with it.
	See I suggested that the hypnotherapist ask her about certain daily activities and she
	said that she spent a great deal of time in prayer and she started naming off these prayers.
	Yes.
	And so, these are all factual, you know?
	These are things that the Tibetan Buddhist monks would know about, that Sarah has no clue.
	I know, but I hear you, but once again, what does this say about the nature of our very beings?
	That the afterlife we might expect, from what we believe, now, our current held Beliefs and convictions might not be what we get at all,
	but we might get something from a few lifetimes ago I think that's very clear from Sarah and even talking with
	some of the other major NDE researchers about this who are also very intrigued
	I think it's opening up our thoughts in terms of what could possibly be
	This certainly raises the very distinct possibility it further substantiates
	reincarnation and further raises the possibility that we may be taking some
	beliefs back with us when we reincarnate I would remind your listeners that Sarah's NDE is prominent on our website www.nderf.org as well as some of the additional commentary and some additional stuff that we learned from the subsequent work with her.
	Let me also say one thing.
	Now, Carl Jung.
	He's a famous psychiatrist, father of modern psychology as some people call him.
	He had a heart attack and he went into outer space and it reminded me a little bit of what you were doing.
	You were flying over Paris but he went even further than that and saw the earth as a blue ball.
	He could recognize oceans and continents and he was looking at all of that and then he saw, according to the report, a A rock, a huge, kind of like a meteorite, come up right next to him, and there was a Hindu priest sitting in the lotus position on this rock and beckoned for him to join him.
	And he was about to go over, but he knew that if he did cross over to this rock, he was floating in space, and he wanted to kind of walk in there.
	If he did cross over, he would gain knowledge of all things, but if he Didn't cross over, he could come back to Earth.
	And he chose to come back to Earth, even though it was a hard choice for him to make.
	That would have been a tough choice.
	And he regretted it at times.
	He wished he'd gone over there.
	Now, why would Carl Jung have a Hindu experience?
	This is another thing that's sort of like Sarah's.
	Exactly right.
	Oh no, this is really fascinating.
	And he was not a Hindu, as far as I know, anyway.
	And here's one other thing.
	I want to ask you, Dr. Long.
	This is a little sort of an aside, but it would be in your area.
	I have been hearing from, unfortunately I've had a lot of friends with heart attacks and strokes lately.
	Must be some kind of message, but anyway, I've heard from people that even heart attacks which do not produce NDEs or anything close, that people survive, and strokes, that people survive, but particularly with heart attacks, which you wouldn't expect, when they come back from it, and once they've done the rehabilitation, chelation, whatever they're doing afterwards, They have a different aspect to their personality.
	Is that common?
	You know, that actually is.
	In fact, one of the great researchers in near-death experience, Dr. Kenneth Ring, did a lot of work on studying the life changes that resulted for people that had near-death experiences and for people that had faced life-threatening events but did not have a near-death experience.
	And I might add, only about 30% of people that have life-threatening events actually have a near-death experience.
	There's certainly life changes and what are generally perceived as positive life changes occurring when people come close to dying, but as far as the near-death experiencers, I think it's an order of magnitude more of those type of changes.
	But I've heard that they actually come back with discernibly different traits to their personality, and that's not the end of years.
	That's just the people who've had heart attacks and very serious things occur to them.
	You know, I think you're right, and I know what you're getting at.
	You know, it's certainly possible that they had a near-death experience that they did not remember, or some other event that would have shaped their personality or their... That was going to be my question.
	Absolutely possible.
	Absolutely.
	No question about that.
	Time and time again, Art, we have near-death experiencers that come back and say they had knowledge of the experience taken away, that it wasn't for them to know here, and I'm sure that a significant proportion of people that die that don't remember an event actually did have an experience and the memory was taken away.
	I think sometimes it's really, and this is going to sound really funky, but I don't believe it's really meant for some people to know about the ENDE because they could not ever adjust back to normal life.
	They are of the temperament that it would be very difficult for them.
	Full of rage and resentment that they had to come back.
	And it might actually be a negative thing in their life instead of a positive.
	So those memories were taken away.
	All right, you two hold it right there because we're at the top of the hour.
	We'll be right back.
	Dr. Jeff Long and Tricia McGill and joining us from I think somewhere in Arizona is a young lady named Karen.
	Who would like to introduce Karen?
	I'll do it.
	All right, Tricia.
	Well, actually Karen came to us via She had submitted her NDE on a Kevin Williams website and Kevin Williams was kind enough to allow us to contact her, which we did.
	We got her NDE up on our website and I talked to her at length and whenever you asked me a couple days ago, If I had any Indies in mind that would be interesting like Sarah's was, I thought of her.
	You thought of Karen?
	Yes, I thought of Karen.
	I thought Karen has got an unusual one and I think she's a school teacher and a mother and a wife and I think she's very articulate and you'll really enjoy her Indies.
	Well, hi Karen.
	Welcome to the program.
	Hi, Art.
	How are you?
	Very well, Karen.
	You're a teacher.
	What do you teach?
	I'm a high school history teacher.
	High school history.
	I had a hard time, Karen, with high school history.
	You know, I hear that a lot.
	All right, Karen, how old are you now, if we might ask?
	I'm 27.
	27?
	Yes.
	And when did this occur to you?
	I was 24.
	It was three years ago.
	Three years ago.
	Okay, I guess I don't know any other way.
	I mean, you're married, you have children.
	Is there anything else that's important to know about your life before we find out what happened?
	I wouldn't necessarily say that there's really anything that's critical to know.
	Before my NDES, I was growing up as a teenager.
	I guess I would call them psychic experiences, but I wouldn't consider myself psychic.
	What about religious affiliation?
	Are you a religious person?
	That's an interesting question.
	As I was growing up, my parents gave me a Baptist religious background.
	When I went into elementary school, I began going into a Southern Baptist background.
	And then as I got into high school, I really started to reject some of those ideas because my beliefs just didn't fit with with the Baptist belief completely.
	It was, you know, I felt that I was fed too much of this, you know, be careful what you do.
	You know, God is, I'm sorry, God is, what's the word I'm looking for?
	Vengeful?
	Thank you very much.
	Very vengeful, you know, that Uh, you know, if you didn't, if you didn't serve Him right, then, then you would go to Hell, you know, and that, you know, uh, believe in, in, that Jesus was our Savior, and all of this other stuff, and, and if you didn't, you know, then it was that fire and brimstone sort of reality that you were supposed to be facing, and, uh, and I just didn't have that, that belief, you know, that, that God was that way, and that, you know, God was supposed to be this, this loving, uh, this loving, you know, uh, being.
	That's the same with you.
	So, in other words, you drifted away from Southern Baptism.
	Yes.
	And you sort of went where?
	Just to sort of your own counsel?
	You know, many of the ideas that I had, I was very interested in Greek mythology, and I guess I would say I drifted into Paganism of sorts, believing that there were various gods.
	You know, why would there just be just one god?
	You know, why couldn't there be possibly more?
	And so my beliefs just kind of drifted from there and, you know, astrology and different things like that.
	All right.
	Well, that's very interesting.
	I think that's an important background.
	Or maybe important.
	I don't know.
	Maybe it's not important.
	So three years ago, what happened to you, Karen?
	Well, three years ago, I was... Well, actually, let me start before my actual accident, before my MDE.
	After the birth of my first child, I would say my son Jacob was probably about six or eight weeks old, somewhere around there.
	And I had a dream one night that I woke up just sobbing hysterically because I had died.
	And this dream was so real, it was like other premonition dreams that I had had previously in the past.
	And so, because of the fact that this was so real, for months, every time I would get in my car and I was driving, then I was looking out for this vehicle that I had seen, for fear that this was actually going to happen.
	So, in your dream, you were what, run over by a car?
	Yes, a truck, a utility truck that actually ran a red light and hit my car.
	I have never dreamed I died.
	I mean, you know, like an accident or anything like that.
	So I can understand you would take that as a forewarning.
	Well, it was the realness of the dream in which I took it as a forewarning.
	If it were just a typical dream like my parents had told me that when after the birth of me
	and my sister that it was a common thing for mothers to have dreams that something was
	going to happen to their children but not necessarily to themselves.
	So they thought that maybe it was just along that line.
	But because of the realness of this dream and the realness of other dreams that had
	actually come true for me then I knew that this was something a little bit more than
	just a typical dream.
	All right.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	So you have the dream.
	So I had the dream.
	And so for months, you know, I was driving around watching, you know, for this car, trying to be extra careful and everything and making turns and stuff.
	And finally, you know, I would say when my son was probably about six or seven months old, you know, I just decided, you know, I can't live my life scared forever.
	And just forget about it.
	You know, it probably really was just a dream.
	So you really, really took it that seriously that for months you watched out for this vehicle?
	Wow!
	Okay.
	And so finally, you know, when I just gave it up and said, you know, whatever is going to be is going to be.
	I was at school one day and there was a student that I was having a real difficult time getting along with and I wanted to go, you know, to get along with him better.
	So I thought, you know, well gee, maybe if I find out what some of his interests are.
	He was on the baseball team.
	I thought, you know, maybe we can get a conversation going dealing with baseball and maybe we can find some way to create a friendship out of this.
	Gotcha.
	And so I was planning on going to a baseball game that afternoon.
	It was going to be one of the last few of the season.
	And so I was on my way home, and I wanted to pick up my son and then go back and spend, you know, this afternoon at this baseball game with him.
	And I had gotten off the freeway and was making a left-hand turn, and that's the last thing that I remember, you know, from a human state anyways.
	I don't remember the accident itself.
	Well, obviously it's been described to you by others, no doubt, witnesses and so forth and so on.
	What had happened?
	What had happened is that a utility truck and it actually, you know, it was the same company that I had seen in the dream.
	A premonition.
	Yeah, it was definitely a premonition.
	Anyways, the truck had also gotten off the freeway.
	It was headed in a different direction and it ran a red light and it hit my car right in the driver's door.
	Wow!
	And from my understanding, from what the paramedics had said, and from what the doctors and the nurses had said, was that they believe, I had my seatbelt on, they believe that from the force of this and the height of the pickup, that my head ended up hitting the glass window and hitting the headlight of the truck.
	Your head hit the headlight of the truck?
	Yes, that's what I was told.
	No, because there was blood and everything that they found on the truck and the paramedics had said that it wouldn't have gotten there unless my head had actually hit it.
	So were you thrown out of the vehicle?
	I wasn't thrown out of the vehicle.
	Well, with your seatbelt on, help me to understand how your head could hit the headlight of the other vehicle.
	Oh my God!
	It was the way that the truck had actually hit the car.
	It must have been quite a bit higher for one thing.
	Yes, it was.
	Oh my!
	Um, so what condition were you in?
	Obviously not good.
	Well, I was knocked out.
	I don't, you know, I don't remember it.
	Um, and, uh, when I went, when I woke up, uh, I did wake up in the car and I remember seeing, you know, um, a young lady trying to get into my car.
	And, uh, and at first, you know, I was thinking, you know, what happened?
	And I looked over and I remember seeing the actual headlamp of this car right there next to me.
	And at first, you know, I thought, wow, this is what it feels like to be in an accident.
	And this girl was trying to get into the car.
	And I just kind of looked over and I didn't think anything about it.
	And I don't remember doing this, but she says that I reached over and I unlocked the door to help her get in.
	So there's a lot of physical blank spots for you and time.
	Yes, a lot.
	And the doctors and the nurses had said that I was very lucky to survive this accident because of the severity of it.
	And that my injuries that I had, they were expecting me to be able to remember this, but because I have absolutely no recollection of it, they believe that I Probably wasn't looking and I didn't see the car come through the red light.
	Right.
	Otherwise I would have tensed up and my injuries would have been a lot worse.
	You were completely blindsided.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	So... What were your physical injuries specifically?
	What happened to you?
	The way that I think now, I have to go from head to toe, so let me start with my head.
	My whole face was black and blue.
	It was just swollen up like a balloon.
	They said that I had a concussion.
	At first they were worried about whether or not I would actually remember anybody.
	I remember my parents and my husband and bringing in my son and everything and they wanted to know, you know, if I remember who they were and different pieces of information because they didn't know at the time, you know, just how serious the head injury was.
	But I was diagnosed with a concussion.
	Concussion.
	And I was in the hospital for about six weeks.
	Six weeks?
	No, not six weeks.
	Six days.
	Six days, alright.
	That's a big difference there.
	I broke my collarbone on the left side.
	I had, I believe it was two broken ribs and then I had two pelvic fractures.
	Alright.
	Well, at some point, apparently, when you were out, I guess, or I don't know when during this process, you had what you believe is an NDE?
	Yes.
	Basically what happened is that instantly I was in a southern realm.
	It was the most beautiful place I've ever been.
	There's nothing on earth that even compares to the beauty of this place.
	It was a very park-like setting.
	A lot of trees, kind of like a mountain landscape in the background, flowers all over.
	I remember, you know, kind of like park benches and everything.
	I don't remember actually seeing anyone else there besides my guides that I ended up meeting.
	But the colors were just amazing.
	That was the first thing that drew me into this place were the colors.
	They were so vibrant.
	Have you seen in What Dreams May Come with Robin Williams?
	Yes, I have.
	Those kind of colors?
	It was different in a way.
	Honestly, I wasn't really happy with the way that they did the paint.
	Did you have a physical presence of yourself?
	I don't remember actually seeing myself.
	It was just more that I knew that I was there.
	real shimmery, everything just exuded love and peace.
	Did you have a physical presence of yourself?
	I don't remember actually seeing myself, it was just more that I knew that I was there.
	Alright, but you had a definite physical landscape to look at.
	Yes.
	Like a park with trees and wonderful colors and all the rest of it.
	Yes.
	Park benches, you said.
	Yes.
	And shortly after that, you know, everything, like I said, you know, just radiated love.
	And I was just filled with the most intense feeling.
	I guess finding the words is really hard to describe this, but it was a feeling of ecstasy, a feeling of really intense love.
	I don't know.
	peace, tranquility, happiness, everything.
	And it was just so overwhelming.
	It was just awesome.
	And then I ended up meeting three guides and one of those was my grandfather who had passed
	away many years ago.
	Another one was a guide basically through this life.
	Not quite my guardian, but, uh, but he helped me through, you know, through various aspects of life.
	Are these people who just sort of wandered to you or materialized in front of you or what?
	You know, quite honestly, I don't remember, um, how they came to be there.
	It was just like they were just there.
	All right.
	Um, were you, um, sorry for the interruption.
	Were you, were you aware Consciously that you were dead or might be dead, were any of those thoughts in your mind?
	No, actually at first I didn't know what had happened.
	I didn't know where I was.
	My three guides ended up telling me, you know, I had asked them, you know, where I was, and because I had been taken from my body so quickly, then I didn't, you know, I didn't have that actual death experience.
	So you were more or less confused.
	Yes, I was very confused.
	And what they did to show me, you know, they told me that I had died.
	And I had, you know, I didn't have any knowledge of me dying, you know, so how could that be true?
	And they ended up showing me the accident.
	They showed you the accident?
	Yes.
	Well, that would follow.
	In other words, for you to understand the manner of your death since it occurred, you were blindsided like that.
	Right.
	No time to think about it at all.
	Not even to go, oh damn, or whatever before the car hit.
	So they showed you the accident?
	Correct.
	And it was just looking from above.
	I didn't actually see my body in the car or anything like that.
	Um, it was just simply them, you know, their showing me was enough that, you know, that I was, I was, I instantly knew, I realized, you know, that, that this, that this is actually, you know, this was truly what could happen.
	Gotcha.
	All right, Karen, hold on, uh, and doctors, hold on.
	Now, that's interesting.
	Karen is with us.
	Dr. Jeff Long, Trisha, uh, Dr. Trisha McGill as well.
	And we're listening to what happened to Karen, and she was shown Because she didn't... she didn't think about it.
	She was actually shown sort of a vision from above of the accident.
	As in, here's what happened to you.
	We'll take it from there when we get back.
	I'm Art Bell.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	You're on a ride.
	This morning a ride to the other side.
	A young lady named Karen is with us.
	A school teacher, a mom, a housewife.
	And somebody who went to places that I sure haven't gone, and I imagine many of you as well.
	So, if your curiosity has been tweaked a little bit, then stay right where you are, because we have only just begun.
	All right, once again, my guest, Dr. Jeff Long, Dr. Tricia McGill, and Karen from Arizona is with us.
	And Dr. McGill, you were going to add something.
	We were talking during the break.
	Well, I just wondered how many of your listeners realize that as they are listening to this woman's tale, that she was already told by the beings in heaven, if you will, that she was dead.
	So basically, you're listening to a dead woman.
	I mean, who better to tell somebody if they're going to live or die?
	Not to come back.
	Yeah, that is in not getting to return.
	In other words, some people seem to be given choices to go back or to stay, and they weren't having that kind of conversation with you, Karen.
	They were saying, yo, you're dead.
	Right.
	It was something that had been preplanned before.
	Well, basically, I started out telling you that there were three guides and I really wanted to point out who my guides were because I feel that that's really important.
	One of my guides, as I had said previously, was that it was my grandfather and his purpose was basically to help me move my human self I'm going to ask you to go back to the other phone.
	It had kind of a weird characteristic to it, but it was much louder, so if you would pick up that other phone and hang up your portable.
	Okay, no problem.
	Yeah, well that's much better.
	Much better?
	Yeah, much better.
	Sorry about that.
	Alright, so your guides.
	Okay, so anyway, my grandfather was one of my guides to help me because he was someone that I had known in my human life.
	to help connect me or help me shed my human life there.
	The second guide was basically just one of my spirit guides throughout life and he was
	basically the leader of all of this about transitioning me from the human life to my
	past soul life.
	And then the third guide was a spirit that I was supposed to have known previously in
	another life.
	And I didn't remember who this person was.
	It was a feminine spirit.
	But they told me that as I began transitioning and that once I had completed that that I would remember who this spirit was and that there would be many more spirits that I would meet as we went on.
	That I would recognize who they were and that the memories would come back.
	Do you remember having a sense of curiosity?
	I mean, once you had been told, shown, that you had died, did you have a normal human curiosity or not at all?
	No, yeah, actually there was.
	Because what I wanted to know first was, Basically what had happened to my grandparents.
	I had always had this idea that when you pass on, when you die, that you're going to meet up with your family members.
	And my grandparents from my father's side were very dear to me, just as my grandfather from my mom's side was.
	But I wanted to know where they were and I wanted to know when I would be able to meet with them.
	And I was told at that time that they were actually in another level.
	And I think that this is kind of interesting about it too.
	I don't remember exactly.
	This seems more like, from what I can recall, they were in another solar system.
	They were in another galaxy of sorts.
	But I didn't get a picture or anything of what that was and my memory on it isn't so clear any longer.
	I'm hoping to go through some sort of a hypnosis so that I can remember that better.
	I think you would save tomorrow on that.
	Right.
	Hypnosis saves us.
	But basically all of the levels, including earth, are connected with the spirit realms.
	My understanding was that earth was the lowest.
	The place where I was at, the transition zone, was almost like a loading dock of sorts.
	This was a place where any spirit to go from the higher realms if you were going to earth
	then you had to pass through this transition zone and then for those spirits that were
	going up, then you had to, you know, again you had to pass through this area.
	Actually, I've heard that a lot.
	That there is sort of like a transitioning plane and you hang around there until you know which way you're going.
	Gee, that reminds me of the Air Force.
	Wait here until we come for you.
	Okay, go on.
	And so anyway, so I was told, you know, that as I transition, that I would get to learn about these other levels.
	And that basically, you know, some of the learning that I had acquired on Earth would determine, you know, where I was able to go within this realm.
	Let me think.
	What else?
	I know that I had questioned...
	You know, the fact, even though I had seen the accident, why is it that I didn't remember it?
	And I was told basically that my soul was taken out immediately because of the fact that it wasn't necessary for my soul to experience that death process.
	And that sometimes in violent deaths, it's better for the soul to be taken out immediately so that it doesn't suffer any ill effects.
	Gotcha.
	I heard that before, too.
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	That really does make sense.
	And really, really bad death.
	Where we think people are suffering a great deal, actually their soul is taken out and it's just the shell that's going through it.
	There's no consciousness of the pain.
	So, there's no way that you were coming back.
	It was like... No, it wasn't like that.
	Big decisions in the sky had already been made.
	You were dead.
	Your soul was taken.
	You were shown how you were killed.
	That seems pretty conclusive and final, Karen.
	Correct.
	And it seemed pretty final.
	I was shown a life review.
	I've only recently begun looking into trying to find other people who have had experiences like mine.
	And what I found is that the reviews that I've heard of are basically in which they're shown their whole life.
	But my review wasn't like that.
	It was showing me the lessons that I had learned and what I had taught while I was here.
	And I don't have any recollection of Well, maybe you haven't inflicted a lot of emotional distress on other people, Karen.
	I hope not.
	Is that possible?
	I hope not.
	Well, it's your life.
	pain and everything that she had ever caused anybody and I don't remember
	feeling that it was that it was just you know just everything that I had learned
	and everything that I had taught to other people. Maybe you haven't inflicted a lot of
	emotional distress on other people Karen is that possible?
	I hope not.
	Well it's your life is it is it within reason to say that?
	I would say within reason that I that I am a fairly decent person. Considerate
	and compassionate.
	No mass murders?
	No mass murders on your hands?
	No, not on my hands.
	Okay.
	Well, and then maybe you didn't have anything like that to go through.
	That could be.
	That definitely could be.
	So, it all happened so quickly, I really don't even have a real recollection of what those lessons were that I saw, but Were they big lessons or small lessons?
	Some of them were big lessons and some of them were small.
	Just minor things that I had learned along the way that ended up culminating into a big understanding or a big lesson.
	Were you judging yourself or simply reviewing yourself?
	Do you think it was a process of judgment you went through?
	It seemed more like a process of understanding what my purpose was here.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Let me think.
	And the reason why I say that, it wasn't that I was judging and that I felt that anyone else was judging whether I did right or wrong.
	It was taking a look at the good that had happened as a result of my being here and what I had actually accomplished.
	No.
	Okay.
	These experiences seem so very, very different.
	Sarah's and what you've told us of yours so far.
	And what you've told us of yours so far.
	But the fact of the matter is, you're back with us.
	Right.
	Now, it seems so conclusive that you were dead you were well into the process of the
	life review of seeing your own death all the rest of it so excuse me for being blunt but how come
	you're back? As I was listening to them talking and having them show me all of these different
	things I began to think about the people that I had left behind and even though their voices
	and it wasn't really voices it was more like more like their thoughts you know it there it
	seemed to be pulling me away and helping me to transition. Your children? Your husband?
	Yeah well well the The spirits and my guides have been talking to me and seem
	to be pulling me away in their talking but then I began to think about my husband and my
	son.
	I had only had one child at the time and he was about seven or eight months old.
	I was thinking about my mom and I just thought the first one that I thought of was my son.
	You know, he was so young, and I just felt that I couldn't leave him.
	My husband at the time, you know, had been working all the time.
	He really didn't have much experience or patience in actually caring for our son, and so I was really frightened about what was going to happen to him.
	My mom, when I was growing up, she always said that if anything ever happened to her children, she would just climb into bed and never get up again.
	For running through my mind, like, you know, there's absolutely no way that I can be dead.
	You know, these people, I need these people and, you know, these people I felt needed me at the time.
	And, you know, my husband, I was definitely concerned about him and how he would handle things and I was given an understanding as far as what would happen to them.
	They were, you know, they were trying to tell me, you know, don't worry about it.
	This is just, you know, your human side.
	You're just having a difficult time getting rid of your human shell.
	Sure, sure.
	And, you know, just kind of relax and just kind of flow with it and, you know, listen to what we have to say and, you know, we'll show you what's going to happen to them and then that way you won't worry any longer.
	And basically, you know, my son was supposed to be, because my husband was working so much, my son would be taken care of by my mother and father-in-law.
	Until he was older.
	So you were really shown what would happen to your child.
	Yes.
	And that your child would be taken care of.
	Or at a later time.
	And what about your husband?
	My husband was going to remarry.
	Remarry?
	Yes.
	He was going to, when my son was going to be about 7 or 8 years old, he was going to meet another woman.
	Very pretty.
	She had kind of a dishwater blonde hair.
	Um, you know, and I kind of laughed when I saw this woman that he was supposed to marry because it wasn't anything like he always said, you know, with what he was looking for.
	But she seemed to be this very sweet and kind and loving person.
	And I felt very comfortable and very happy that he was going to find happiness with this woman.
	You did?
	Yeah.
	Well, you really had already shed some human emotions.
	The problem was that this woman, initially, she loved my son and she took care of him very well.
	She was very kind and considerate and everything.
	The only thing was that she and my husband were going to have their own child and she ended up treating this child differently than she treated my child.
	And when I saw that, then that broke my heart.
	Oh!
	In other words, obviously she would treat her own child in a more loving, caring, nurturing manner than yours.
	Yes.
	Okay, I see your problem.
	And when I saw that, then I couldn't bear that.
	That's not what I wanted for my son.
	And I began fighting and struggling with that issue.
	And with my mom, I was shown that she would get through this, that my grandmother would actually help her in dealing with my loss, and that everyone would be okay.
	And they ended up proceeding to show me my funeral.
	Your own funeral?
	Yes.
	to help me deal with it.
	Basically, one of the reasons why they showed me my funeral was so that I could have an understanding that even though I was gone, I could still have a connection to my family members.
	And so anyways, I was taken into this chapel of sorts, but wherever it was, and I remember seeing my casket.
	I didn't look at myself, but My mother was on the left-hand side with my sister and my father, and she just looked very, very gray.
	I was so upset by that.
	She was the first person that I went to.
	I was basically told that I could talk to them, but not to expect them to hear me or to know that I was there.
	That there were some humans that were sensitive enough that could sense the spirits or that could actually hear what I was saying, but that most wouldn't.
	My mom was just sobbing so much.
	And I walked away from that.
	I didn't know how to deal with that.
	Your emotion was just overwhelming.
	In other words, your own funeral was too much for you.
	Yeah.
	And I saw my husband and he was far more upset than I realized that he would ever be.
	But again, I knew that he was going to be okay.
	And then I saw my son.
	And at seven and eight months old, you know, they don't realize what's going on.
	And he was sitting there laughing and, you know, giggling and playing and everything.
	And, uh, you know, it hit me.
	He doesn't realize, he doesn't realize anything.
	And, uh, um, he is not ever going to remember who I am.
	and he wasn't ever going to know the love that I had for him.
	To know you.
	And he wasn't going to know my values and my hopes and wishes for him.
	And because that became so overwhelming, they pulled me out of that situation.
	and we ended up having this discussion a little bit more.
	So I guess they don't know at all, huh, Karen?
	In other words, they put you into that situation thinking, no doubt, that it was going to help you transition, but they were wrong.
	Yeah, they were.
	They misjudged that one.
	Well, now, that says something about wherever that is, if that's heaven or more likely the loading dock or something, that says something about the nature of it.
	In other words, I always thought they would always be right.
	But maybe not, huh?
	Well, I do believe there are accidents in heaven and misjudgments, and this is just one of them.
	Well, so not only is this earth imperfect... My view on it is that, from their point of view, they were doing something that they considered was right, that as a spirit form, that was fully transitioned.
	Right.
	They didn't look upon this as something bad.
	And actually, when they pulled me up above it all, Basically, they told me that... Karen, I'll tell you what.
	Okay.
	Hold it right there.
	Thank you.
	And rest during the top of the hour.
	Same for you doctors.
	Stand by and we'll be right back.
	Oh man, what a story.
	Our guest is Karen at the moment, along with Dr. Jeff Long and Dr. Tricia McGill.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	I think this kind of thing we're doing right now is the kind of thing that you do after dark, and you do it for a lot of important reasons, because people during the day can't absorb this kind of information.
	They're too busy.
	But at nighttime, somehow, you can.
	All right, back now to Dr. Long, Dr. McGill, and Karen in Arizona.
	Welcome back, everybody.
	Are we all here?
	Are we here?
	Yeah, we are.
	Good, great.
	All right, well then, now this is really becoming some story.
	Here we have Karen beginning to see her own funeral, not being able to handle it, and then I guess they withdrew you from that.
	And then what?
	Okay, once they pulled me away from the funeral and we were up above everything and it wasn't in the same spot with the park and everything.
	It was almost more of an astral projection.
	I remember just stars and blackness and I don't know where exactly we were.
	Um, but that wasn't important because I wasn't focusing on that.
	But once they pulled me back out of the funeral, then they started discussing with me again the purpose of life, the fact that we go down to earth because we have lessons to learn and we have lessons to teach.
	And that, you know, here my family had lessons that they were supposed to be learning from my death.
	And that because of that, you know, then this was critical.
	And they started telling me, you know, the fact that I was not going to, that once I had transitioned, I wouldn't see the pain that they were in as something that was bad and something that I felt sorry about, but it was going to be something that I was happy about.
	That I was happy to see that they're going through this grieving process.
	So, in other words, they were sort of, in a strange kind of way, saying, look, it's okay to be dead.
	Everything's going to work out.
	Here, we can show it to you.
	Yes.
	Not only that, but that she wanted to be dead and chose to be dead at that time in a previous Earth existence.
	Right?
	Well, before I had incarnated on this Earth.
	Right.
	Before my birth and I had chosen basically what my lessons were going to be and agreed upon a time when I was going to die.
	Seems like pretty much of a done deal to me.
	But obviously not.
	I mean that must be the hook in this story.
	Obviously not.
	How in heaven's name did you get back?
	Um, do you want me to skip right to that?
	No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	Take it in the proper chronological order.
	Go right ahead.
	As we were talking about the purpose of life and everything and the fact that my family members had lessons that they were to learn from it, I was still thinking and feeling very, very bad about leaving my son Jake and I really felt sickened.
	By this idea that they were giving me that I could somehow feel happiness overseeing them in so much pain.
	And I didn't understand it then that I would see it as their spiritual growth and therefore I would be happy about it.
	That isn't to say that they don't have empathy for the pain that people go through here on earth.
	It's just that They have this bigger picture than what we have and they know that if we're going through that grieving process or if we're struggling with cancer or whatever it is, if we've got suicidal thoughts, then we're dealing with parts of our spiritual growth that will eventually get us through.
	and that it will work itself out in the end.
	But somehow through all this process you weren't buying it.
	No, no I wasn't. I mean I was buying it because you know in a sense I wasn't buying the fact that
	that I would be happy with seeing their pain. You know that that just really turned me off.
	I just thought no absolutely not. You know I don't want to see the pain that that my son is going to
	have. I couldn't bear the thought of the pain that my mom was going to go through in you know
	in dealing with the loss of a child. But with you know it's really hard to explain but in the way
	that they were talking it was so so soothing.
	And they just, you know, it was just all of this love and all of this, you know, this peacefulness that they were giving you.
	They were telling you, look, it's going to be all right.
	It's going to be wonderful for you.
	You're not going to feel all this pain.
	What lies ahead for you is some kind of paradise or whatever, something wonderful.
	And it's all in the grand scheme of things.
	It sounds like a parent telling a child that it's okay to take the shot because now you won't be sick anymore.
	Right.
	And the kid screaming, I don't want the shot, I don't care!
	Right.
	Yeah, it does sound that way.
	But you know, as they were telling me this, that I would find happiness in seeing these struggles and these lessons that they were learning.
	You know, like I said, I wasn't really going for that.
	I didn't really feel that that was right.
	And I was upset, still, because I'd never see Jake walk.
	I wouldn't hear him talk.
	I wouldn't see him, you know, take him to school on his first day of kindergarten.
	I wouldn't see him graduate from high school.
	I wouldn't see him get married.
	You know, all of these important milestones.
	Have children?
	Your grandchildren?
	Right.
	And so again I became very upset and was crying and again they were so, so patient in transitioning me and they kept reminding me that the feelings that I was having was simply because I was having a really difficult time shedding my human self.
	Um, but that, you know, uh, you know, give them, give them patience, you know, relax and, you know, just, just go with it and, and let myself release, uh, release my, you know, my human self.
	Um, and then I would, you know, I would have a, have a deeper understanding of things.
	Um, again, in another way of trying to, uh, to calm me, they told me that, uh, that, uh, For a time being, I could enter the earth realm as a spirit to watch over my loved ones for as long as I felt was necessary.
	Basically, as long as I felt that they were grieving.
	And that would be okay, that I could appear before my, you know, with my mom.
	As a spirit?
	Yes.
	And I could try and talk to her inner self and make her inner self at peace and help her to deal with the grieving.
	And at the same time I would be able to see things that Jake was doing.
	And even though I wasn't actually there to be his mom, I could see some of those things that were happening.
	I'm done.
	Sure, sure.
	So Karen, unlike other near-death experiencers that are told, your time hasn't come, you need to go back.
	You were told, your time has come, you need to stay.
	You are dead.
	Right, and they were showing me ways in which my spirit then will live and foster.
	And so as they're telling me that I can stay here in the earth realm, they also told me though that most spirits choose to only stay here for a very short time, such as just through the grieving process, because the longer that you stay and the more connected that you are, and I'm going to use a word here that I don't really like very much, but you end up Some spirits would be so connected that they would become lost, that they would forget about the reason why they had come down into the earth realm, and they wouldn't go back.
	In other words, they virtually turn native again.
	Right.
	They're still in their spirit form, but yet, you know, they cling so much to that human Attention, ladies and gentlemen, possible explanation for ghosts.
	Can I say something here?
	Yes.
	It's important for everybody to know that excessive grief is very harmful to the one you're grieving for because it holds them earthbound.
	And if the grief goes on for a very long time, the longer they hang around the earth plane, the more they become, like you said, They go back into their earth ways and they sometimes will forget their grief.
	And to tell them it died.
	The Irish have it right.
	Yeah, I guess they do.
	They have a big party.
	Yeah, they do.
	It's a celebration.
	Anyway, sorry to interrupt.
	Go on.
	No, that's quite all right.
	Karen, obviously something in you, and here's what I guess I want to ask.
	Obviously, you're struggling really very strongly with what they're telling you, and you're not feeling like this is what you want to do at all, and you must have had some growing antagonism toward the whole process that was going on.
	No, you know what?
	It wasn't antagonism.
	It was just extreme Extreme grief over leaving my son.
	Karen, you were fighting to leave heaven?
	No, I wouldn't say that I was fighting to leave heaven.
	I just didn't want to be there.
	I didn't want to accept that I was dead.
	Not that I was fighting tooth and nail to get back.
	Do you remember, was there any communication between yourself and the spirit guides with regard to this?
	In other words, did you ever sort of say to them, mentally or however you communicated, Sorry, I want to go back.
	I don't want to be here.
	I mean, what happened?
	You know, as I was going through these waves of grieving over leaving Jake and then accepting Kevin and all that he had to offer, when I would go back into that wave of grief again, then it was this idea, you know, I can't do this.
	I can't do this.
	This can't be happening.
	And it was more of a disbelief that it was happening than it was an argument.
	Right.
	Gotcha.
	And so, you know, back to what we were talking about, that they told me, you know, that I could come down here, you know, to the Earth film, but they said, you know, they really didn't recommend that, especially for very long, and that most actually stayed in In this other realm, heaven if you want to call it that, and basically that you could be from up there and watch everything that was happening very quickly, come and go, do what you want to do and kind of peek in and see how your family members are doing from time to time.
	It was really up to you, but most actually preferred to stay above and to keep track of their family members from that way.
	And they knew that I was still upset over leaving Jake.
	And so they ended up showing me his future.
	Your son's future?
	Yes. And I saw him as a baby staying with my in-laws until he was about 4 or 5 years old.
	Right.
	Basically at an age where my husband felt comfortable enough to take care of him.
	Then when he came back to live with my husband, with his dad, He was dealing with his lot in life, his path, was a very difficult one that had been chosen.
	Many rocks along the way and he was very temperamental and having some difficulty.
	My husband didn't quite have the patience, but that's to be expected, though, because of the fact that he wasn't really raising my son from the time that he was a baby.
	Right.
	So he hadn't really learned that patience with him.
	But let me think.
	I've just lost my train of thought.
	Well, your husband, you'd been shown the future of your son.
	And you found it somewhat disagreeable, I guess.
	Yeah, especially like I had said before, you know, around 7 or 8 when my husband was to get remarried.
	That's when I especially found it disagreeable because I didn't like the way that his new stepmother was going to be taking for him.
	I didn't like it at all, you know.
	And I became so upset again and cried.
	I couldn't let this happen to my son.
	It couldn't be real.
	So by now these guys are probably saying to themselves, we can't deal with this one.
	Let's just kick her out.
	No, like I said, they were so patient and they were so loving.
	And they were just trying any way.
	They just didn't give up.
	In teaching, I know some teachers, they try and get through to a student and they try many different methods, but then when the methods that they know don't work, they kind of throw up their hands.
	These teachers, these guides, it was like they had this multitude of things that they were willing to try anything in order to help me.
	Obviously.
	Release, release myself.
	Show you anything.
	Show you what happened to your family, to your husband, to your child.
	Show you everything.
	All right.
	Hold on.
	Hold on Karen.
	Okay.
	We'll be right back.
	Top of the hour once again.
	It's been a too long time.
	We're doing it again.
	I'm getting nothing but fantastic guests.
	Incredible.
	Here's one that says, Karen is so enriching, so loving, so believable.
	It might be a positive understanding, short of positive proof.
	I do believe.
	Fantastic guest.
	You know, that kind of thing is just rolling in.
	So, Karen, here we are, back on the air again.
	Sounds like you're coming from a distance to us.
	I'm sorry.
	There you are.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Now, I guess we've got to know in this half hour somehow, somehow you got back.
	So, I mean, here they are doing everything in their power, being patient, showing you all these things, how they'll work out.
	And at some point, you're not, you're just not responding positively.
	No, I guess not.
	We started talking again so that they could continue this transition.
	They talked to me about the tasks and challenges that Jake was going to face, that he had actually chosen this path, that he had very valuable lessons to learn and to teach to progress the growth of his spirit.
	Um, and that, you know, and that because of that, that I needed to accept to allow him to continue on this path.
	Right.
	Um, and they, we talked about religion, um, and, you know, because I had seen such a difference, um, in, um, in the way that, that the spirit realm was set up than, than what I had believed.
	I found that some of the things that I knew, that I felt I knew about the afterlife were
	totally wrong.
	Some things that I questioned existed, that they were actually true.
	It was basically that all religions of the world have some aspect of truth about the
	afterlife.
	It seems reasonable.
	But they disagree upon many different ways and how it actually functions.
	I questioned how is that possible?
	Why if they all have these components of truth, why can't the spirit just find some way to
	blend all these religions into one?
	Why is it that there had to be so many and that there had to be so many disagreements?
	Did you get an answer to that?
	Yes.
	The reason was that the various religions were important to help spirits on their spiritual
	path.
	That if a person chooses to be an atheist, if that is their path that they chose before they incarnated to earth, then that was going to be very vital to the decisions and to their belief system that impacted their decisions that they made in their life here.
	And if someone was a very devout Catholic or a Buddhist, that belief system there was going to move them along that path of learning and understanding.
	And this was for all of the lessons that we had to learn, not just dealing with religion.
	There's a part here I don't understand.
	An atheist, one who doesn't believe in God, doesn't believe in God at all, period.
	Just no God.
	You're dead.
	Worms crawl in.
	Worms crawl out.
	Right.
	But an atheist is still going.
	Does an atheist get up there and go, damn!
	I would assume so.
	I see.
	Because we all go to the same spot.
	That's interesting.
	We might have different perceptions when we get there of what that is.
	But an atheist is still going to return to the spirit form.
	Gotcha.
	Having that belief as an atheist, not believing in any sort of a God, was very influential upon the lessons that they learned while here.
	Understood.
	And it was basically spirits in heaven, they can learn or book read, whatever you want
	to call it.
	They can look at a situation or a lesson and understand it, but they don't really get this
	full comprehension unless they experience it.
	And so that's why we choose to come to earth and then we take on those various personalities
	and beliefs and everything so that we can get a full comprehension of what this feeling
	or what this action is like.
	And then we talked about, there were some aspects of karma and hell and everything that
	I was shown.
	And I wasn't shown, unlike some NDEs that I've read where there's actually a hell that
	exists, the fire and brimstone.
	You weren't shown that?
	No.
	What I was shown was that it doesn't actually exist.
	That it's something that if we don't...
	live the life that we are supposed to. If we haven't learned the lessons, if we have
	chosen to be this evil person and we choose all the wrong things instead of trying to
	follow this path that we are on, then when we die and we go to heaven, instead of being
	shown all these wonderful things, then what ends up happening to us is that we are sent
	back down to earth without the choice of making the decisions of what lessons we want to learn.
	New lessons are, or it's basically the same lessons are forced upon us but in a much more
	difficult way. In other words, we create our own hell. We create our own hell here on earth.
	Right. In other words, like flunking a grade and getting sent back. Right. Except you're
	put through a more rigorous test the second time around.
	It all revolved around the fact that I just could not give him up.
	Alright, now again, we've got to move toward how you got back.
	Okay.
	Basically, I was so upset over leaving my son.
	It all revolved around the fact that I just could not give him up.
	And basically, it got to the point that after all of these things that they were showing
	me, I felt myself on the brink of no return.
	I had this choice that I was going to take full acceptance of my death and make my final transition or I wasn't.
	When I felt myself at that point, I just became so hysterical.
	I just could not bear the thought of leaving Jacob behind.
	Even though they had shown me that I could watch over him, that I could see all the things that I wanted to see, I just wanted to be here with him.
	I needed him so much.
	I began crying so hysterically.
	Um, that immediately, um, you know, after this, this hysteria began, I began, I felt this, this, um, almost like this arm, like a, I, I have a really difficult time explaining it, like a, almost like a wing, you know, just wrapping me up, or, you know, I was thinking about a way how I could explain it, you know, in the movie, uh, um, is it King Kong?
	How the gorilla grabs the woman up and she's just all in the gorilla's hands.
	Yes.
	And I felt that I was just completely enveloped by this higher being, higher than what my spirit guides were.
	And I felt this immediate sense of love and compassion and peace.
	And I was told, it's okay, don't worry about it.
	My spirit guides were told to allow me to return, and they actually began arguing a little bit about it, that I was almost there, I was almost through the transition, that they needed just a little bit longer, and then my spirit would be whole.
	And this higher being said no.
	That they felt, or this being felt, that because it was taking me so long to transition that they didn't believe that my spirit would actually be at rest.
	That they feared that if I chose to come down to the earth realm that I could become one of those lost, that I would stay stuck here so that I could be around them as much, that I would become this ghost here on earth, following around my family members.
	And so they didn't want that for me.
	They didn't want to take that chance.
	And so they said, you know, it was better to allow me to come back and to just rearrange the lessons that were to be learned.
	And some of the situations, or postponed some of the situations that were to happen, and to let, you know, to make the arrangements to come back.
	To change?
	You mean to really come back?
	Yes.
	To change everything that you had seen would occur from your funeral to the remarriage of your husband and your son growing up and all the rest of it?
	Everything was going to be rearranged.
	History was altered.
	In other words, yeah, time stood still and was re-arranged.
	I've never heard of this.
	That's why we wanted you to hear this particular NDE, Art.
	Yeah.
	Now, so you were enveloped by this wing, which made a decision virtually overruling your guides.
	That's right, huh?
	Yeah, higher authority.
	Were you told anything before you went shooting back?
	Yes, actually what ended up happening is that it was part of my Part of my return and deciding what my lessons were to be.
	You know, I was still, I was thinking, you know, as this higher being was saying, you know, let them return, I was telling them, you know, I was thinking of reasons why they should let me return.
	You know, not just because I need to be with my son, but because when my mom died, not when my mom died, but when my grandmother died, then I could share with my mom what I knew about heaven.
	And that way I could provide some sense of peace to her.
	In other words, you were arguing your case.
	Yeah.
	I guess so at that point.
	I guess I kind of, you know, I was trying to make sure that they also agreed to it, you know, that they didn't continue arguing and then talk this higher being into letting me stay.
	And I wanted to use, I said I could use what I know, all the knowledge that they had given me to help others.
	And it was basically mostly for those people who are grieving.
	And we ended up working on what my new lessons were going to be in coming back.
	Planning the resumption of your life.
	Yes.
	Now remember there's a time span here, Art.
	If she was going to live instead of die in this accident, it had to be like going back in time.
	Well, either that or the place where she went has no reference for time compared to our linear understanding of time.
	Exactly.
	Time in this realm is totally different than time here on Earth.
	Everything that was happening from the point of this accident, it was happening so fast.
	Compared to anything that was here, you know, we can't put a time limit on the afterlife.
	What is the last thing you remember from the other side?
	Well, I was told that, you know, that many of the things that I had been taught, that I wasn't, that there were things that I was not supposed to bring back with me, that they would have to be taken away, because there were things that, as humans, we just can't know.
	The last thing that I actually remember was being placed above the accident site and looking down upon it.
	I was wondering, the last thought came into my mind, how much longer do I have with my son?
	That way I know how long I have and I can really enjoy every time that I have.
	I was told, when your children are older, and at the time I only had one child, I said, At first I was more than accepting of that grape, you know, when they're older.
	And then just before my departure, I thought, wait a minute, what does that mean?
	Does older mean when he's three?
	Does it mean when he's eight?
	I see grandchildren and all that stuff like you had said.
	And again it was just reiterated that when they are older it isn't for you to know when
	your time is because then you will focus on how much time you have left rather than really
	focusing on learning your lessons and enjoying your life and living your life the way that
	you are supposed to.
	And many of these memories were taken away or have just been forgotten.
	Again, like I said earlier, I'm hoping that through the hypnosis that I might be able to remember some of these things that I've forgotten.
	Has this removed the fear of death from you?
	Completely.
	Completely?
	Completely.
	What is the first thing you remember?
	Do you remember rushing back into your body?
	Do you remember the first moment of return consciousness?
	I remember a fall.
	But to be honest, I don't remember waking up in my car and thinking, I just died.
	I remember waking up and like I said I had wondered what happened and did I fall asleep and cause this accident and let me unlock this door so that this woman can come in and help me and then I was in and out of, I don't remember very much because of my head injury, everything that happened She was only about 16 actually.
	She was talking to me in a car trying to keep me awake.
	She said that I kept wanting to go to sleep, that I was so tired and everything.
	I remember just thinking of her as being very angelic at the time.
	I wasn't connecting it to this experience.
	Because at that time I didn't realize that I had really just died.
	And I remember thinking that she was just so angelic and that her voice just kept drawing me to her.
	And the questions that she was asking me were dealing with my son.
	Tell me about him.
	How old is he?
	Where is he at?
	She was trying to keep you here.
	Yes.
	Tell him about the airbags.
	What I was told later is that if my airbags had not gone off in my car, then I would not be here.
	Despite the fact that I had my seatbelt on, that I would not be alive if my airbags had not gone off.
	And they do not open on side impact.
	This is an impossibility, yet they did open.
	That's how she was saved.
	They said that, you know, the paramedics basically said that this truck must have hit me hard enough or jarred the car just right to hit the little sensors.
	Because that part where the sensors are actually at, we're not even touched.
	Wow.
	So in that sense, you know, it's really a miracle that I'm here, that I'm alive.
	Well, there's more ways than one.
	Yeah, I'll say.
	Really?
	So I have never heard of an NDE where... I don't want to minimize this in any way, but where If the person complained enough, they went back.
	That is what we are talking about here, really, isn't it?
	In other words, she was told that her time was up, that she needed to stay there, and
	yet, unlike other Indies where they are told your time is not up, Karen's time was up.
	She was really ready to make the transition, but she is here today, Art, and talking with
	You know, and I honestly don't believe that I'm the only one.
	I think that there's got to be other people out there who have had that experience, that they have clung on so much to something in this human life that, you know, maybe I'm the first one that you guys have heard about that, you know, is expressing that.
	You're the first one for me, Karen.
	You virtually talked your way out of heaven.
	That's right.
	Karen walked away from heaven.
	You're the first one I've ever heard of, Karen.
	What an incredibly remarkable... Isn't this an interesting NDE, Art?
	Oh, interesting.
	I wonder how many of your listeners would walk away from heaven.
	I mean, from seeing that love, that connection, know that that's home.
	be with the ones that they knew that they were supposed to be with before life and after life
	and walk. I think most of us never imagined you could walk away from heaven. Karen, it's the top
	of the hour and I'm going to say thank you and let my two guests answer questions in the next hour,
	but you've been fantastic Karen. Well thank you. I don't know what to say but I mean... For allowing
	me on your show. Mark, can you put her real audio up on your website for us to hear? Of course.
	Of course, of course.
	Welcome back to life, Karen.
	Thank you.
	We'll be right back.
	Indeed.
	I'm getting better.
	I almost interrupted myself, but not quite.
	All right, here are my guests once again, Dr. Long and Dr. McGill.
	Welcome back, you two.
	Greetings.
	What a story.
	Oh, man, what a story, isn't it?
	Okay, here are two reactions to that story.
	The first says, Art, what an account.
	And when you hear her emotions breaking right under the surface, it is very hard to believe that this is anything less than true in form and substance.
	And I would agree with that, but then we get this.
	Once again, the deceivers have created a dupe to pass on their BS.
	Research committee of the largest near-death study organization in the world, the International Association for Near-Death Studies, They've listened to us, processed us, and said, hey, these people are credible, they have integrity, they have decency, and they have honesty.
	So that's one reason.
	Secondly, as a physician, my entire goal has been to simply bring the truth to the surface, to do the right thing, and that's been part of my spiritual walk, too.
	Those of you listeners that heard me when I talked last time, that's what I'm all about.
	That's what Trisha is all about, too.
	I can understand that's a fantastic account, but I challenge any listener to listen to Karen, to listen to Sarah, who we had on before, and believe that they're both... I think the truth is just simply self-evident to anybody that listens to that.
	Not only that, but I want whoever is out there that thinks this is fraudulent to know that we're not making one penny on any of this.
	We fund both Oberf and Inderf.
	We have two websites.
	We fund it strictly out of our own pockets.
	I give away my time as a psychologist to do free grief counseling with anybody that needs it, or to help people who are terminally ill, and to help those who've had an ease and are having a hard time getting back.
	Well, let me say this.
	We're not in it for the money.
	Listen to me, you two.
	I don't for one second... I heard Sarah, and now I've heard Karen, and I don't for one second think it's a fraud.
	No.
	Absolutely not.
	But...
	The one reservation I have, and it haunts me like a ghost, is whether a dead or dying mind, more accurately I guess a dying mind, in a very short amount of time indeed, is capable itself of producing all that we heard from both of these young ladies, and I don't doubt them for one second, So the only argument that Art Bell has inside himself is not whether they were telling us what they really believe is true, but whether it could have been a function of a living and in the process of dying brain of somebody who made it.
	I mean, that's the reasonable doubt that one might have.
	And I'm glad you brought that up because some of your other listeners may have that too.
	Art, I can speak to you as a medical doctor.
	about the possible alternate explanations of the near-death experience.
	What about hypoxia?
	Lowered blood oxygen is a result of reduced blood flow to the brain from being in a life-threatening event.
	When you have reduced blood flow to the brain, or hypoxia, or reduced brain oxygen, that results in every single time I have ever seen this in my medical career, and I'm sure other doctors will back this up, the result is confusion.
	The result is a very It is nowhere near the kind of lucid, detailed events that
	any near-death experiencer has ever described to me could ever do.
	That is one.
	Number two, another alternate explanation proposed by some skeptics is that of brain
	chemistry.
	What about endorphins?
	You know, long-distance runners get this runner's high.
	That has been attributed to the brain chemical so-called endorphins.
	It's a naturally produced narcotic in the brain.
	A protective narcotic?
	Yeah, a protective narcotic.
	Nobody has ever, with any endogenous, which means naturally produced, or exogenous, which means exogenously or delivered externally, drug, has ever produced the kind of consistency and persistency of near-death experiences ever.
	And we've even talked about that with you, Art.
	You remember Drug X?
	Yes.
	Well, that indeed is another example of probably the best candidate of something that might produce a near-death experience, and it is simply not panning out.
	There's no question about that.
	Near-death experiences are unique.
	There's nothing that we've... In fact, I talked to one of the leading pharmacologists in the world, and the source would surprise you and your listening audience.
	I won't identify them, but a pharmacologist studies the effects of chemicals on the brain.
	And this very, very prominent pharmacologist who nearly won a Nobel Prize assures me there has never been a drug that's been administered that ever produced to any consistent degree the effects of any element of a near-death experience.
	Doctor, I have heard that some scientists doing experimentation with electrical stimulation of parts of the brain have been able to produce Some aspects of an NDE, the tunnel and white light experience.
	You're talking about some of the neurosurgical experiments that were done in the early 1950s, and I think a lot of that's kind of gotten a little bit overblown.
	All that ever happened is that there was some very rare, transient, inconsistent, and certainly not reproducible senses of peace or light or love, sort of as a single event, but nothing, nothing.
	Do you remember when this same subject came up?
	I believe it was the first time we were on?
	Yes.
	About what, six months ago or so?
	Yes.
	I said that I had a theory, and this came strictly out of my own head.
	Let me add also one other thing.
	Do you remember when this same subject came up?
	I believe it was the first time we were on about six months ago or so.
	I said that I had a theory and this came strictly out of my own head.
	I mean I didn't read it anywhere or get it from anybody else.
	But there is probably since, let's just assume that there is a creator, okay?
	If this Creator is powerful enough to make us and to make our brains, isn't it possible that He would also create a sense of us letting Him know that we were in the process of coming over?
	That is, i.e., a trigger that would trigger the beginnings of an NDE and that at some point In time, a spiritual event would just take over.
	Yes.
	In other words, I don't see that that is so unrealistic.
	Nor do I. And I think that if you look at it that way, there could be triggers.
	There could be triggers that started in the E, but that at some point in time, God takes over.
	It's a God thing, Art.
	Yeah, I really think it is.
	Listeners, it's a God thing.
	No matter what the trigger, no matter what the pre-existing condition, you cannot have a Sarah, you can't have a Karen, you can't have any of the near-death experiencers.
	descriptions that me and Trisha have heard, the scores and scores, the hundreds, unless it were a God thing.
	Now, both of you, should we, I repeat again, should we be studying this?
	Yes.
	Oh, well let me tell you something.
	Trisha and I have spent a huge amount of time studying this because we perceive it's important, it's significant, it's reproducible, it meets scientific evidential criterion in the sense that it is reproducible, it is studyable.
	I know, I know, I know.
	No, no, no, I'm with you there, but I mean, you said it's a God thing, Art, and okay, I love maybe.
	Maybe.
	Are we really supposed to study God and the afterlife in this way?
	In other words, some people, remember, they used to say, well, if man had been meant to fly, he'd have wings.
	Well, if man had been meant to know what happens when he dies, No.
	God would have us know.
	We're spiritual beings.
	We have connections with God.
	I think even before we came here we all have connections with God when we're gone from here.
	I think it's our very predestiny.
	I think it's very much our post-destiny.
	I think it's a part of studying who we really are.
	I mean it's in the greatest sense of all It's a scientific study of reality, and that's what's intriguing to me.
	So both of you then never really have reservations about your field of study?
	No, not at all.
	Not after I started studying Indies, I didn't.
	You hear Karen, you hear Sarah, I get it.
	There's a bigger picture.
	Also, I think it's important to know a couple of things.
	One, it's easier to make a transition from life to death if you know what to expect.
	But if you know that this other side exists, you can get yourself prepared mentally for
	it and if you don't fear death, what a marvelous way to approach the end of your own physical
	life.
	In other words, my lucky listeners might die one day.
	They will all die.
	One out of one is going to die here.
	That's right and they are going to get up there and instead of being completely confused,
	they are going to say, hey, I heard the Art Bell show.
	I'm cool with this.
	Well, you know what, I think the understanding of the near-death experience is very clear that there is a bigger picture, that there is a life after death, and I think we have some glimpses, mind you, not a detailed picture, but some glimpses of what happens, and yes, your listeners are very much blessed by your willingness to share the Karens of the world and the experiences they've had and I really
	think that will help people to prepare people for what lies ahead because that's art, that's
	really what's going to happen.
	And also Art, I think the most important reason to study Indies more than anything else is how
	it affects us in our daily life right here on earth. Of course.
	If a person can come back from an Indie and totally change from being a selfish, greedy,
	egotistical...
	SOB type of person and has an end to eating and comes back and they are 100% different.
	They go around feeling love towards everyone and they lose all this materialistic, greedy
	behavior and they become more spiritual and they live a better life.
	My gosh, how can you change the world except one person at a time?
	Well, isn't that what the Scandinavians are thinking?
	Well, no, I don't... I'm not so sure that they have all these great motives, although if they did, I could kind of like... Get behind it a little more?
	No, not really get behind it, but I could at least understand it more.
	Well, I hope that these two young ladies Who have been so passionate and articulate are right.
	I hope nothing more in my life than that, and that'll be for all of us.
	Let's try a few calls.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with the entire group here.
	Dr. Long, Dr. McGill, Lennart, Bill, hi.
	Yeah, this is Larry from Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania.
	Hello, Larry.
	Hi, Art.
	I've been trying to get through to you a long time.
	And hi, Dr. Long and Dr. McGill.
	Greetings.
	Hi.
	Yeah, I'm thinking about your earlier statement about the prisoners, about the unethical part of it.
	I'm thinking about the positive side of taking a person that is totally rotten and transforming them, as you say, into a person that's totally committed to something good.
	Like I'm reading what Sarah says.
	She says at the very end, I have a great wish that everyone could experience the wonders that I have without having to suffer the trauma that I did, for it would transform the world.
	I'd like your comments on it.
	I'd be happy to, Larry.
	I think the real critical thing is that the transformative things that Sarah Or Karen or any other near death experience or experiences is not so much from their own power or from the power of others that induced their death.
	It's a God thing.
	And I think any time in the history of mankind that we've attempted to short circuit or play God, it's failed.
	And it's failed miserably and very often had the opposite effect.
	I think to the extent that we allow God to play out with us what we're supposed to learn.
	Listen to what Karen had to say.
	We have lessons to learn.
	There's a sequence in which they're supposed to be learned.
	It's planned.
	It's of a higher power, far beyond what we can conceive.
	And I think that's really what the message is.
	I think any time we try to short-circuit those lessons, or to play God, if you will, not only are we doomed to failure, but I think we're going to cause a great deal of problems.
	And I know Tricia's got some comments on this.
	Yes, I feel that I would like everybody to experience the good parts of an NDE without having to come close to the trauma of dying or of taking drugs which could also lead to their death or possibly impair them in other ways.
	How do we do that?
	I think there's a good way to do it and I mention it in an article on NDERF which is www.nderf.org.
	I have an article called Life, Death, In that I really make a strong case for meditation and the
	importance of meditation, especially the last of about 28 pages of work that I put into this
	article.
	I think that if you can meditate, if you can teach yourself how to have an out of the body
	experience like my friend Al Taylor does on a regular basis, it proves to you beyond a
	shadow of a doubt that mankind is dual in his nature.
	He's not only physical, but he is spiritual.
	The consciousness can leave the body.
	If you can prove that to yourself, then maybe you can take it one step further and go into
	the heavenly realms and see what it's all about and come back.
	There are people that claim they can do that through meditation, through the use of meditation.
	Being able to have an out-of-the-body experience.
	We have a new website, by the way, which is dedicated to the out-of-the-body experience.
	Okay, well we've got both websites.
	Okay, great.
	Linked.
	Linked, great.
	You wanted both, we've got both.
	Okay.
	So anybody who wants to know more about what you're hearing tonight, go to my website, take your choice, you can get both.
	the Near Death Experience Research Foundation or Out of Body Research Foundation
	which is the new website. Both are linked on my site right now
	which is www.artbill.com and now east of the Rockies you're on the air with Dr. Jeff Long
	and Trisha McGill. Hi. Hello.
	Oh, is this me? That's you. Hey, uh... Where are you?
	Oh, I'm in Yeralton, Texas. Alright. This is Gary. Hi, Gary.
	KJFK 98.9. Big, big FM down there. Yeah, great. Hey, what about people that, see I've had a near
	death, I've been near death, but I didn't have an experience. How do they explain that? Oh, good,
	good, good, good, good questions.
	Thank you.
	Yes, remember, doctors, there's a great percentage of people who come back from near death and say they remember absolutely nothing.
	It was good night, Charlie Brown, no memories, no dreams, nothing, blackness, and then they're back.
	Art, you are absolutely right.
	It's about 70% or 7 out of 10 people that come very, very close to death will not have a near-death experience that they remember.
	And, Gary, it sounds like you're one of those.
	You're actually in the majority.
	You're among those people that really didn't remember anything.
	Gary, I have a question for you, though.
	Well, Gary's not here to answer it, so his question was simply, how do you explain that?
	You know, I really wish I had a good answer for that.
	There's a lot of mystery that we face with near-death experience research, and that's one of them.
	I don't really, and Tricia doesn't really know why, seven out of ten people that come close to death don't have a near-death experience.
	And Art, we were talking earlier about that.
	Possibly it's because they may have actually had an experience but don't remember it.
	And probably the best indication, whether they've had a near-death experience that they remember or a near-death experience that they don't remember, is what happens for the rest of their life.
	Are they changed?
	Do they become more loving, more spiritual, more godly?
	I think anybody that's had that kind of change in their life, whether they remembered or not, has probably had a near-death experience.
	Also, may I add one other thing?
	Could it be compared to going to sleep at night and some nights you have a dream you remember and some nights you don't?
	That's correct.
	Also, do you recall in the case that we just heard, Karen's situation?
	Yes.
	She was not allowed to bring back some of her knowledge.
	Why?
	Because it wasn't good for mankind to know.
	Some people I don't think they could handle it.
	I'm treating several people now who've had Indie Eats, and they are really, I'm sorry to say this, but they're really messed up.
	I've got you.
	Because they felt like, oh, heaven was so wonderful, and they were forced out, and they feel like they've been kicked out of heaven, and it's a really bad feeling, and they're having a hard time getting back into normal life.
	Right.
	Hold it right there.
	We'll be right back.
	I'm Art Bell.

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