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Dec. 15, 1998 - Art Bell
02:35:04
19981215_Art-Bell-SIT-Michio-Kaku-Advanced-ET-Civilizations

Zachariah Sitchin’s 12th Planet theory claims Anunnaki from Nibiru genetically engineered humans 450,000 years ago for gold mining, later elevating them to partners every 3,600 years. Michio Kaku links this to string theory’s 10-dimensional vibrations, suggesting advanced civilizations could manipulate Planck energy for wormholes or teleportation. NASA’s $14B budget, mostly spent on the $100B ISS, could instead fund $0.3B Mars robotic missions, where Viking data confirms ancient riverbeds and oceans. Kaku critiques NASA’s Cold War-era priorities while acknowledging persistent conflicts may keep humanity stuck as a "type zero" civilization despite progress toward type 1 global unity. [Automatically generated summary]

Participants
Main
a
art bell
44:28
m
michio kaku
01:14:06
z
zecharia sitchin
27:33
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Speaker Time Text
Art Bell Somewhere in Time 00:05:06
unidentified
Welcome to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 25th, 1999.
art bell
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be across this great land of ours and beyond.
From the Tahitian and Hawaiian Islands out west, visions of hammocks and native girls and drinks with umbrellas, eastward to the Caribbean, where there are similar visions, south into South America, north all the way to the pole, and worldwide on the internet.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
I'm Art Bell.
Coming up in just a moment is Zachariah Sitchin.
And Zachariah's time is always at a premium, so we've only been able to get him for an hour.
Sadly, only for an hour.
He promises one of these days he will spend an entire program with us and with what he's got to say.
Certainly, it takes that to get some of the information to you, but we'll do our best.
Zachariah Sitchin coming up shortly.
And then in the next hour, Neil Walsh, a fellow who has authored a best-selling book now called Conversations with God.
That's a little change in scheduling for tonight, but I did that because I got so many calls from so many of you who had read that book.
And what you had to say about it, I found shocking.
So we'll ask the author himself, Neil Walsh.
That's coming up in the next hour.
Zechariah Sitchin, one of a small number of Orientalists who can read these Sumerian clay tablets, which trace Earths and human events to their very earliest times, was born in Russia, raised in Palestine.
where he acquired a profound knowledge of modern and ancient Hebrew and of other Semitic and European languages, the Old Testament, and the history and archaeology of the Near East.
He graduated from the University of London, majoring in economic history, having attended the London School of Economics and Political Science, and after a writing career as a journalist, began writing his Earth Chronicle series of books.
Many thousands of years ago, a race of extraordinary visitors to planet Earth deciphered the cosmic code and used genetic engineering to short-circuit evolution and bring about us, Homo sapiens.
Their footprints include the vast monolithic structures on Earth and the surface of Mars.
Zachariah Sitchin, internationally acclaimed author, biblical scholar, and Orientalist, reconstructed in his books the events on Earth from the time the Anunnaki, those who from heaven came to Earth, had come here for gold, created Adam as a primitive worker, and after the deluge gave mankind increasingly sophisticated knowledge every 3,600 years when their planet Nibiru comes closer to Earth.
But the knowledge embedded in the Cosmic Code, his latest book, by the way, remained an enigma.
And so we'll ask him about Cosmic Code.
And here he is once again on the program.
Zachariah Sitchin, welcome back to the program, Zachariah.
zecharia sitchin
Good evening, guys.
art bell
great to have you are you are back in uh...
where where are you In New York?
zecharia sitchin
In New York.
New York City.
art bell
New York City.
Okay.
How many books now have you written?
zecharia sitchin
Eight.
art bell
Eight books.
zecharia sitchin
And they've been translated into 14 languages.
And I have a worldwide interest in what I had to say.
And I'm really happy to be on your program, Art, after some brief interval.
Thank God, only brief.
art bell
Yes, well, there should be, then there will be another brief interval, and you promise me that you will come and spend more time next time.
zecharia sitchin
I always keep my promises.
art bell
Okay, good.
I think everybody should be familiar with your theory of the 12th planet, but maybe you could take one second for those new listeners, and there are many who have never heard it, and tell them what it is.
zecharia sitchin
Okay, if there are still any left that are not familiar, briefly it is my eighth book started with the twelfth planet 22 years ago, and it's still going strong.
Alien Genetic Engineers 00:15:19
zecharia sitchin
And it dealt with the issue of are we alone?
Are we alone in the universe?
Are we alone in our solar system?
And it answered the question by saying, based on archaeological evidence and texts that were considered sacred in antiquity, and some of them, like the Bible, are still held sacred and divinely inspired to this day.
And the answer was that yes, there is one more planet, not out there light years away from us, but in our own solar system, from which intelligent beings started to come and go between their planet and our planet about 450,000 years ago.
As you mentioned, their purpose for coming here was selfish.
They needed gold, which is still the only perhaps retainer of value compared to the paper currencies that are current.
art bell
Zachariah, let me ask you this.
Why did they need gold?
I've always wondered about that.
I understand why we consider gold to be valuable, but of what value was it to them?
zecharia sitchin
Well, not for coins and not for currency and not for jewelry, but because this is the evidence, the answer that comes to us from primarily the Sumerian writings.
They apparently were losing atmosphere on their planet, which depended on its internal heat and its only atmosphere.
And if they would have lost it, they couldn't survive.
And they tried to create a shield of gold particles to protect their atmosphere and their planet and to be able to survive.
And at the beginning, they thought they'll get gold here the easy way from the waters of the Persian Gulf, but when it didn't work, they went to Southeast Africa, started mining, and there there's evidence of mining 80 and 100,000 years ago.
And at some point, when the few of them who were here, astronauts who were turned to the job of toil in the mines, mutinied.
A Sumerian text describes very vividly the mutiny.
Any of your listeners who have access to ancient literature may look up the so-called epic or myth of Atrahasis.
And in the course of the mutiny, the chief scientist, his name was Enki, said, I have a solution.
Let us create a Lulu Amelu, a primitive worker.
And when the others questioned him, said, How can you create a new being?
He said, oh no, the being that we need already exists.
All we have to do is put our genetic mark on it.
And then there are texts that describe a course, a trial and error of genetic engineering, trying to combine their genes with those of the hominids that already existed on earth until finally a perfect model was achieved.
And what I'm doing in my new book is not justly telling this general tale, but what I said to myself is if we would know, like a watchmaker who,
if he knows how the watch was put together, knows how to repair it, if we would study those ancient texts in detail, step by step, of how the genetic combination process took place and such texts exist, we would be far ahead in repairing the genetic defaults that are really the cause of our sicknesses.
So what I've done in this new book, the COSME Code, is really take it from the general to the individual.
There was the general story which I've told in the previous books.
And now I'm dealing with the issue of how can it affect, how can it cure each one of us individually.
art bell
How can it affect, how can it cure each one of us individually?
What is the answer to that question?
In other words, what is there in the cosmic code that would be of interest to or value to an individual?
zecharia sitchin
There are, for example, texts that describe how the two Anunnaki, the chief scientist and the chief medical officers, trying to bring about what they call the perfect model, the Adam, how they tried by adding or detracting or subtracting this gene or that gene, came up with beings that had some defect.
For example, if they did it this way, then the being that they produced had only one kidney or was deaf.
Or some of them described what we call a genius or idiots that have a very low IQ, but they can really play fantastic music.
music.
They can remember music without notes.
And all these instances are described in the text.
What I'm saying that if others, not me, because I'm not a biologist, I can read ancient tablets, but I'm not a biologist, I'm not a geneticist.
But I see enough there that if people who are in the field and who are providing us almost daily with these headlines that here they find a way how to reach the stem cells and here they find a way how to fight cancer, etc.
If they would see detail by detail how we were made, how we were created step by step genetically, there would be a shortcut and time would be saved and they would be able to cure us and help avoid the maladies, especially the genetic ones, much quicker.
art bell
Well, we are then actually the descendants, we are the slaves of extraterrestrial visitors.
Slaves.
We were created to dig for gold, to mine for gold for the Anunnaki.
zecharia sitchin
At the beginning.
art bell
At the beginning, yes, but now we are unraveling the human genome.
As you said, we're getting very close.
Just a few more years.
And my question, Zachariah, is, when we do unravel it and we begin to modify our own genetic structure and use more of our brains and cure our sicknesses, the next time the Anunnaki come back, they're going to be rather surprised, aren't they?
zecharia sitchin
I don't think so, because at the beginning, indeed, they just needed us for manpower, creating us as hybrids, and then through a second genetic manipulation, which is the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, gave us the ability to procreate.
But after the flood, after the deluge, they treated us as partners, not as workers for them, not as slaves, and started to give us knowledge.
We call it civilization.
And again, the text, which I now go into detail in this new book, The Cosmic Code, describe the methods by which that knowledge was transmitted and given to us.
And because I wondered, for example, many are familiar with the biblical tale of Moses going up to Mount Sinai and God dictating to him for 40 days and 40 nights information or instructions which spread over pages and pages and pages in the Bible.
And all that was, according to the same Bible, written on just two stone tablets.
So in what language was the dictation made?
How could so much information be contained just on two tablets which Moses could carry?
The Sumerian taste tells how much vaster information was carried on on whatever computer chips.
I say this because we don't know better technologically.
That could be hundreds of them carried in one hand.
So in what language, in what code?
Because all that, as is clear from both the Bible and from Mesopotamian texts, was transmitted through encoding in a kind of a shorthand.
And I'm trying to give the answer is the new book.
And that information is also the basis for all the prophecies and other events that happened in the last millennium BC.
So it is a vast yarn.
I'm trying to tell it in the new book as concisely as possible with illustrations, etc.
And hopefully it will serve its purpose and that is to stimulate interest by people whose business or profession it is to look at those ancient texts now with a more microscopic and believing eye.
art bell
Would you please now when we talked the other day before you came on the program you told me about a Catholic priest who had been following your work Father Charles Moore.
zecharia sitchin
Yes.
art bell
And I'm going to have Father Moore on Thursday night.
zecharia sitchin
Oh wonderful.
art bell
So he's going to be here.
I am very, very curious how a Catholic priest embraced your information, Zachariah.
How did that happen?
zecharia sitchin
Well, he should certainly speak for himself, but may I say this, that About two years ago, a sitchin studies day was conducted in Denver, and he was one of the participants that contributed to the studies of that day.
Others were some college professors and others.
And all those proceedings are available in a book titled Of Heaven and Earth, and I hope we'll tell people how they can get it.
And so they can read and not just wait for the interview with you.
But what he said was this, that number one, what I did was I provide a bibliography of the Bible.
I give all the ancient sources on which the Bible is based.
So to understand the Bible, read Sitchin, he said.
Secondly, he said, in order to grasp the immensity of a cosmic God with the capital G, you have to accept the evidence of God's present on earth with the small G, which where the Anunnaki, those who from heaven to earth came.
And if, as I point in this new book, if you understand that they too had God with the capital G, the one that we really should accept and venerate, the cosmic God, then he says everything falls into place and any doubts people have about the veracity of the biblical story falls away and the whole thing becomes much clearer.
There were messengers, there were emissaries of the creator of the universe who came here.
You asked me why did the Anunnaki come here?
They thought that they are coming for their own selfish purposes, but indeed they were only carrying out some cosmic plan by the God of the whole universe.
And I have no doubt, and the book also deals interlia with the issues of what is the difference between fate and destiny, that we too have a destiny.
The fact that we were genetically engineered is not an accident.
It's not the will of just some visitor to Earth 300,000 years ago.
I think this is part of the destiny, part of the godly with the capital G plan, and that one day we will repeat the same thing.
We will go to some other planet and for our own selfish reasons and end up doing the same thing and carrying the seed of life from one planet to another, from one solar system to another.
art bell
Well, isn't there a pretty good parallel, Zachariah, in what early Americans did with slaves from Africa?
Isn't it very much like that in a lot of ways?
We brought them here to work for us, didn't we?
zecharia sitchin
Yes, that was the excuse.
art bell
And we sort of kept them down and in their place for so many, many years.
And then finally, there was a kind of a consciousness raising on our part, not just theirs, but ours as well.
And you're saying that cosmically, basically, the same thing occurred with the Anunnaki.
zecharia sitchin
Yes, you can find many parallels in that.
art bell
Yes.
All right, stay right there.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
Zachariah Sitchin is my guest.
His latest book is The Cosmic Code.
It begins to get very specific from the Sumerian text about the message and what it can do for you, what it can do for us.
I'm Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified
This is Premier Networks.
That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
Listening to Art Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from the 25th of March, 1999.
art bell
And my guest is Zachariah Sitchin.
Zachariah's Cosmic Code 00:02:21
art bell
He is known worldwide.
He has published worldwide, beginning with the 12th planets, and now the newest, the latest, the most detailed, the Cosmic Code by Zachariah Sitchin.
That's what we're talking about, and we'll be right back.
In the Cosmic Code, Zachariah's latest book, the newest entry in a lifetime of research and writings based on Sumerian clay tablets, the Bible, and archaeological evidence in the Old and New World.
Zachariah Sitchin lifts the veil that has separated humanity's fate from its destiny and dares reveal the nature of prophecy in the Old and New Testaments and the secret code that links mankind to the stars.
In doing so, he reconstructed the dramatic events of the last millennium BC when a god, small G, returned to earth and another came back from exile and the last king of Babylon heard prophecies of the end days.
And I still have a hard time, Zachariah, understanding how any Catholic priest could accept the presence of gods with small G's.
zecharia sitchin
Well, you have Father Charlie to ask, and I think he's a better man to answer than me.
I'm not a Catholic priest, but all those that truly believe in the biblical tales believe in angels, believe in emissaries, and that's really what the Anunnaki or the gods of antiquity with the small G where they were just emissaries and angels.
Ancient Texts and Encoding Information 00:11:23
zecharia sitchin
And once you read the word, for example, the term angel, which in Hebrew is Malach, literally means emissary.
Does not mean one with wings, means emissary.
So it is very easy once you grasp the difference between God, the Creator, with the capital G and his emissaries with the small G, I think everything falls into place.
But you will have him to ask.
But may I say this, Art, while when I in my writings or now and then speak of the ancient texts with all their information, genetic information, encoding information, etc., people may say, well, we don't read Sumerian.
We don't read Akkadian.
We don't even know Hebrew.
So we sort of have to take what Zachariah Sitchin says in trust, though there's no argument by anybody that those texts exist and they say what they say, except other scholars say, well, yes, there is such a text, but this is a myth.
And I say, no, it's not a myth.
These things really happen.
But there's evidence all around us.
And I've been traveling sometimes by myself to research, sometimes with small groups of my fans, to look at the evidence which is spread, as you said, both in the old world and the new world.
And I've been just barely two months ago in Syria and Lebanon.
In Lebanon, there is a place called Baalbek, which anyone can visit.
Now it's a little more safer than it used to be.
In the Cedar Mountains, there, the Sumerian text that call it the landing place, it is an immense structure with an immense stone platform that rises many, many feet, almost 100 meters high, built of colossal stone blocks, some of them weighing well over a thousand tons each, which someone, someone in antiquity,
according to the evidence even before the flood, quarried, picked up, and put in place, stone upon stone, that withstood all the earthquakes and other natural and man-made assaults on the place.
And when I was there trying to figure out whether it was really a landing place, the way the Sumerians called it, and then just two weeks later, it was at Cape Canaveral, the night there was a launch there of the shuttlecraft, I realized that indeed this was a giant stone-made launching pad.
If you go to Jerusalem, the so-called newly opened archaeological tunnel along the western wall, and I say that Jerusalem served after the flood as mission control center, you also come upon three colossal stone blocks weighing almost 600 tons each that somebody again quarried, brought over and then placed in place, not on the ground,
but lifting them and pushing them into place.
And that's something other evidence of pre-deluvial or certainly prehistoric activities by someone that people can see with their own eyes.
There's even a much smaller object.
I take pride in achieving a great achievement that the Archaeological Museum in Istanbul in Turkey has kept an object that was discovered 25 years ago that really depicts a one-man spacecraft.
And they did not put it on exhibit claiming that it's a fake.
I showed them that the reason to doubt whether it is a fake, maybe it is not a fake, and persuaded them to put it on exhibit so that people could come and judge for themselves.
So there's evidence like that all around us.
People do not have to devote a lifetime to studying Sumerian or Akkadian or Egyptian hieroglyphics.
And I really urge people to go to these various places, to the various museums.
In the British Museum, and I give illustrations in my books, there is a round tablet that really depicts the route, the space travel route between Nibiru and our planet, which they call the seventh planet, as anyone would who comes in from the outside into our solar system.
So the evidence is all around us.
And I mention it, I show illustrations, but people can go and see with their own eyes.
And I think this is really the beauty of the fact that they don't really have to rely on me saying this text says this or that text says that.
People should really have an open mind and seek or search for the truth by themselves.
art bell
Zachariah, is humanity's destiny to become emissaries with a small G?
zecharia sitchin
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
All the scriptures, if that's the right word to refer to them, say that the last things will be the first things.
The first things are the last things.
This is stated by all the prophets of the Old Testament.
This is repeated in the New Testament Book of Revelation.
And there's no doubt, and this is part of the answer of this code, that how could prophecy exist unless somebody could refer to records or information of the first things and an indication that this will be repeated.
There are cycles, there are repetitions, and not only for events on earth or not only the comings and goings every 3,600 years, but cycles like that and repetitions in the universe.
And what was done to us, we will go and do to others.
This is our destiny.
art bell
Well, it's the way it works with parents and children.
So I imagine it would work that way between creators with a small G and their creations.
I can imagine that would be true.
Where is your book, Cosmic Code, now available?
zecharia sitchin
Well, it's available in all major bookstores, but there are other things that are not readily available, like the book that I mentioned that records what Fathers Charlie Moore and others have said, which is of heaven and earth.
There are two videos of mine.
And if people would call, may I?
art bell
Yes?
zecharia sitchin
888-519-8481.
I'll repeat, 888-519-8481.
I think if they actually buy some of the video or this book of heaven and earth, they may even get as a bonus as a special for my appearance on your talk show art because they got for free.
art bell
Okay, that's the number again.
It's 888-519-8481.
Zachariah, 888-519-8481.
unidentified
Yes.
Okay.
art bell
What you just cited some archaeological evidence, very ancient evidence.
What other evidence would you cite?
There are many people who say if all this was true, there should have been great amounts of evidence all over the earth, if not above, then below ground.
zecharia sitchin
Well, I mentioned some of the evidence, which people call archaeological evidence, but some I know question it by saying if they were really here and if they came and went and if they did this and they did that, where is the screwdriver?
This is how we among us say it's the question of the sc the missing screwdriver.
But my answer is this.
If they had the technology 450,000 years ago to come and go between their planet and our planet, what would be our technology in 450,000 years from now?
Will we still be using screwdrivers?
Will we still be using computers based on electronics?
Or will we, as the indication is, and I deal with it in my new book, will we use DNA?
for computing, for retaining and transmitting information.
Will we be using metals that rust?
Or will we use biodegrading materials?
So in order to answer or deal with this question, that we seek the evidence based on what we know.
I sometimes say I show an illustration of two astronauts, two Anunnaki, saluting a rocket ship.
But I myself, if this were shown to me 50 or 100 years ago, I would say, well, the two beings saluting a very large pencil.
And if somebody would say, no, no, no, that's a rocket, I would say, what?
A rocket?
What's a rocket?
So we are all, I myself included, we are captives of our technology.
When the text described how the Anunnaki had or retained or kept their information on some tiny, tiny bits of something, I say, well, it's something like computer chips.
But will we use computer chips half a million years from now?
Will we use, I sometimes say, it is really funny to me, all this search called SETI, you know, search for extraterrestrial intelligence.
art bell
Yes, I interview people.
zecharia sitchin
Not for beings, but for intelligence.
Intelligence.
Out there, out there, out there, and it's done with the aid of looking for radio, radio waves.
And I say how fortunate we are that the search is done today and not 100 or 200 years ago, because then the search would be for evidence of bonfires.
Is Jesus Unique? 00:04:03
zecharia sitchin
But isn't that how you signal from one mountain, one place to another?
Why not telepathy?
Why not laser beams?
Why not, I don't know.
So just to assume that our technology is the dominant in the universe is really, well, I don't want to use any harsh language.
It is not reasonable.
art bell
Zachariah, who was Jesus?
Was Jesus the Son of God with the big G?
zecharia sitchin
Well, I have not dealt yet in my books with this issue.
And the question does come up.
You know, I've been traveling, I've been addressing large audiences or having interviews on the air.
And I feel that there's a need, I really must deal with this issue.
And to me, it It is not the question of was a certain person the son of God, because this really diminishes, diminishes the subject or the fact that so many millions venerate this personality, because there were many others.
There were Egyptian pharaohs before Jesus who claimed that they are sons of God.
Alexander the Great rushed from Macedonia to an oasis in Egypt.
And that some say was the real reason for his conquest in order to verify a rumor that existed in the court of Macedonia that his real father was not King Philip, but was an Egyptian God, the God Todd.
And he went all the way to the oasis of Siwa to consult an oracle and said that this was concerned.
So to call somebody the Son of God was really not only nothing new, but was, I think, even degrading.
I think the issue is that at that time there was messianic expectation that things would happen, that a contact, a contact with the cosmos, with God, with the capital G is imminent.
And I think this is really the issue to face or tackle, which I intend to do hopefully in one more book concerning Jesus.
art bell
Is it possible, I have something for you to consider, Zachariah, that if we had a sample of the DNA of Jesus, now there are many recorded miracles performed by Jesus, is it possible that if we had a sample of his DNA, that we would find subtle or even large differences in the DNA?
zecharia sitchin
Well, this is a hypothetical question.
You may be really making a very important suggestion because if indeed the what is it called in Turin, the shroud of the truth, contains remainders of the blood of Jesus, then it has the DNA of Jesus.
art bell
Yes, that's correct.
zecharia sitchin
And I think that what you have just asked as a question should be made into a very forceful suggestion and something that whoever possesses that shroud, I don't know if it's the Vatican or just a certain church in Italy, in one place, I think that you really raised a tremendous and tremendous issue and something that ought to be done and not just to be speculated upon.
Planets as Living Beings 00:02:15
art bell
All right.
We have very little time.
Of course, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Zachariah Sitchin.
Where are you, please?
Where are you, sir?
unidentified
I'm in Babylon.
art bell
Babylon.
zecharia sitchin
Babylon?
Yes.
unidentified
Babylon, Long Island.
Babylon, Long Island, New York.
Sort of appropriate name, right?
art bell
Yes, indeed.
unidentified
Mr. Stitchin, in your Sumerian writings where Where these non-human beings came down and talked to the Sumerians.
They mentioned the planets as telling how the origin of the Earth, how we were knocked out of orbit.
Like these planets had a consciousness.
And I was just wondering why they would relate the story like that.
Is it possible that they believe that planets have a consciousness to them?
zecharia sitchin
Some intelligence?
No, not consciousness is not the right word.
But they did consider those who came to Earth as visitors and taught the Sumerians, they did consider planets as living, as living objects, not as dead bodies, but as something that has its own life cycles and history and origin and a beginning and an end, perhaps.
So to them, planets were living organisms the way the Greeks later on called referred to Gaia.
And there's a whole discussion, I mean, even academic circles called the theory of Gaia, that planets are really living organisms.
art bell
Yes, there are also modern astronomers like Professor Van Flandren who believe that there is a great deal of energy within all planets and that suns in fact derive their energy from the planets that revolve around them.
And that, of course, would answer the question of how Nibru is able to survive though it travels far outside the sphere of our sun in a very long cycle.
Intriguing Repeats Ahead 00:05:20
art bell
So there are even modern astronomers that I think support a lot of what you say, Zachariah.
Listen, we're out of time.
See, we're out of time already.
We just got started.
zecharia sitchin
Well, I'll come back, Art.
I promise.
art bell
All right, you really must, must do that, all right?
unidentified
Thank you.
art bell
In the meantime, I wish you all the luck with your new book, Where Are You Going to Be?
zecharia sitchin
Right now, I try to sleep in my own bed for a week or two because I've been, I've been invited to speak, and I did speak in Vienna and in Zurich and in Mexico, and I've been all over, and it's time to speak food to celebrate Thanksgiving with my family and welcome the new year here.
art bell
Good for you, Zachariah.
Next time, a longer show, my friend.
zecharia sitchin
Thank you.
art bell
Good night.
zecharia sitchin
Good night.
art bell
That is Zachariah Sitchin, upon which so many people base their work.
I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified
The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
More Somewhere in Time coming up.
Dream Year Networks presents Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 25th, 1999.
art bell
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning, as the case may be.
Across all these many varied time zones, and they are varied from the Tahitian and Hawaiian Islands out west, east to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands.
Good morning in St. Thomas.
South all the way to South America and north to the Pole and worldwide on the internet.
Thank youbroadcast.com.
This is Coast to Coast AM, and I'm Art Bell.
And tonight you are to be graced with the presence of one of our nation's greatest theoretical physicists, Dr. Michio Kaku.
I'll tell you more about him in a moment.
First, I have an announcement to make.
And I'll give you whatever news there seems to be today.
The announcement is that for the next three days, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, I am going to be gone.
Now, the reason I'm going to be going relates in some way to the reason for my absence from the radio, period.
But I will only be gone three days, and it's something I have to tend to.
So there will be some intriguing repeats for you to listen to over the next three nights while I take care of some very important stuff.
Let me put it that way.
And then I'll be back on Monday.
As a matter of fact, Monday, Major Ed Dames is going to be here, Citex Majorette Dames.
And Tuesday, guess who I just booked for Tuesday?
You may remember, we just finished doing a show on these new majestic documents that are sweeping the country that were supplied by Dr. Robert Wood.
Well, the man who gave the documents to Robert Wood, Dr. Wood, is Tim Cooper.
And Tim Cooper wrote a fact to me and said, hey, Art, I am the researcher who turned over the Cantwheel Majestic documents to Dr. Wood.
There is more to tell.
If you're interested, you can contact me at so-and-so.
And I didn't waste two minutes in picking up the telephone, of course, and making that call.
So the man who delivered the documents to Dr. Wood, who would know perhaps where they came from and has apparently information not even contained in these volumes of documents, will be my guest on Tuesday.
But again, let me tell you that in something related to the reason that I left the air in the first place, related to it, I'm going to be gone for the next three days, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday.
And then we'll be back Monday.
Having said that, looking at the news, what a shock.
The top news item is, Clinton loses key GOP support.
He had some, you mean?
In fact, I guess several House Republican moderates announced their support for impeachment, prompting the president to weigh advice to make an explicit, last-minute confession of wrongdoing to stop the GOP slide.
A Last-Minute Confession 00:03:11
art bell
A last-minute confession of wrongdoing.
Now, that is really interesting, isn't it?
A last-minute confession of wrongdoing.
This would be how many times now he's done that.
And then the second headline is, GOP report seeks Clinton removal.
Otherwise, Endeavor is back on Earth.
Iraq is still screwing around with arms and the inspectors.
Nothing new there.
A court has ruled that Libya can be sued in the bombing of the downing of Pan Am Flight 103.
And that's about it.
Now, coming up in a moment, something far more interesting than any of that.
Dr. Michio Kaku.
He is a professor of theoretical physics at the City College of New York.
He is co-founder of the String Field Theory.
I know that sounds like something you can't understand or won't understand or make glaze over your eyes, but trust me on this.
You're going to like this.
You're going to understand it because he is in it.
Really, I think that Dr. Kaku is stepping into the large shoes left by the sad passing, the very, very sad passing of Carl Sagan, which still affects me.
I'm so sorry that Carl is gone.
He is the author of the critically acclaimed and best-selling Hyperspace, as well as Beyond Einstein, Quantum Field Theory, a modern introduction, and introduction to superstrings.
He also has his own weekly radio science program that is nationally syndicated.
But tonight, tonight, he is ours.
unidentified
Here from New York is Dr. Michio Kaku.
art bell
Dr. Kaku, welcome back.
It's been too long.
michio kaku
Yes, glad to be back on, Art.
art bell
Boy, you know, I said it at the beginning of the program, and I made the analogy of you and the late Dr. Carl Sagan, because you both have the ability in your fields uniquely to explain something that normally could never be explained to a regular person, and yet you're able to somehow get them to understand what you're talking about.
Type 4 Civilizations and Gateways 00:15:22
art bell
Where does that ability come from?
michio kaku
Well, you know, I think part of it is that both of us share an enthusiasm.
That is, we see the wonders of the universe, and we think that what's out there is so fantastic, so neat, that it really has to be told to as many people as we can possibly reach.
And we share that childlike wonder looking at the heavens.
For example, 1998 has been a banner year in terms of cosmology and astronomy.
And we want to share the fact that in our own Milky Way galaxy, for example, we have now identified a black hole, a black hole right in our own backyard, practically a hop, skip, and a jump away from us.
art bell
How much of a hop, skip, and a jump?
michio kaku
Well, it is about 20,000 light years away.
unidentified
20,000.
michio kaku
So as far as the crow flies, it would take an enormous amount of time for one of our rockets to reach there.
art bell
Well, we're never going to get there as the crow flies, are we?
michio kaku
Probably not in our lifetime.
However, the other black holes that we've seen in outer space, 12 of them, are like millions of light years away, 30 to 50 million light years away.
art bell
Well, you missed a little bit of what I was saying.
I said, we'll never get there ever as the crow flies.
And what I meant by that is that we're never going to traverse those kinds of distances as the crow flies or in a straight line all those light years.
One light year taking one Earth year, one human year to traverse at the speed of light.
We're not going to do it.
However, there may be another way.
michio kaku
That's right.
Going at velocities below the speed of light, perhaps a Ramchet fusion engine will take us very close to the speed of light.
But if you want to break the light barrier, you have to have energies far beyond anything that our puny civilization can harness.
And you have to reach what is called the Planck energy, at which point space-time becomes unstable.
Now at the Planck energy, which is 10 to the 19 billion electron volts, holes in space begin to form, we think.
art bell
So in other words, you've got to generate the kind of energy that it takes to create a black hole.
michio kaku
In some sense, yes.
Black holes can reach that kind of energy, 10 to the 19 billion electron volts.
And some of us believe that at the center of a black hole, there could really be a gateway, a gateway to perhaps another portion of our universe, or perhaps even an anti-universe.
We're not sure.
But our civilization is too puny, you know.
Like I mentioned before on your show, we physicists believe that there are type 1, type 2, type 3 civilizations.
art bell
And I have many, many new affiliates since last time you were on, so let's do the 101 on the different type civilizations there are.
We are a what?
michio kaku
Okay, we are on this scale of cosmic energy, type zero.
We get our energy from dead plants.
art bell
Zero.
michio kaku
Oil and coal is our source of energy on the planet Earth.
But in about 100 years to 200 years, we will attain genuine type 1 status.
art bell
Maybe.
michio kaku
Maybe, and that is truly planetary energy can be harnessed.
A type 1 civilization in space, for example, would have enough energy to play with hurricanes, to play with volcanoes, to create earthquakes.
If it's raining on a Sunday picnic, well, hey, gee, we'll just change the rain, that's all.
We're not going to bellyache about the hurricanes.
We're just going to change the hurricane.
That's a type 1 civilization that can harness any kind of energy that is planetary.
But then in outer space, we physicists have seriously looked now.
We've spent millions of dollars on this now.
Looking for type 2 and type 3 civilizations.
A type 2 civilization would be stellar.
They use solar flares for their energy supply.
So when Junior wants to borrow the starship, Dad says, fine, just put a few white dwarf stars and neutron stars in your gas tank, and off you go.
So type 2 civilizations play with the output of a star, a single star.
art bell
Well, gee, our little single star, by the way, while we're on a type 2, has been having quite a bit of solar flare activity of late.
In fact, it's been downright amazing.
michio kaku
That's right.
Right now, we are, of course, helpless against the 11-year sunspot cycle.
And in fact, our astronauts, of course, have to be told ahead of time that they're going into a sunspot cycle.
But a type 2 civilization would simply say, hey, let's turn off the sun for a little bit and make sure that there's no disturbance coming from our sun.
art bell
Turn it off?
michio kaku
Well, turn off the energy bursts that come from the sun.
And then a type 3 civilization has exhausted the power of just one star, and they are galactic.
You know, the recent Star Trek movie that's out, for example, which is the number one movie in the country, and that's the Federation of Planets, which is a Type 2 civilization.
And Captain Kirk and Captain Jean-Luc Picard basically deal with just a few planetary systems in a tiny little sector of a galaxy.
art bell
And I know who a Type 3 is.
Type 3 has got to be Q.
michio kaku
Well, the Borg.
art bell
The Borg?
michio kaku
The Borg, right.
art bell
But what about Q?
Q is a virtual God, or is he beyond 3?
michio kaku
He's beyond 3.
See, the Borg eats Type 2 civilizations for breakfast.
Great.
Because they are galactic.
They roam across the galaxy, the Alpha, the Beta, the Gamma Quadrant, and they pillage wherever they can.
And Independence Day with Will Smith is another Type 3 civilization, a very savage-type civilization like Locust.
art bell
Did you like that movie?
michio kaku
I like the movie for the special effect.
It was really neat watching Los Angeles being blown up.
art bell
Yeah, it was.
The reason I like the movie, and I thought the second half of it, But the first half of it, you know, when they came to the explanation of we don't want to bargain, we don't want to negotiate, we don't want to talk to you, all we want to do is kill you.
I thought that was pretty right off.
michio kaku
Yeah, no ifs, ands, or buts.
You know, what do you want us to do?
Die.
art bell
Die.
Yeah, die.
unidentified
Right.
michio kaku
Well, that's a type 3 civilization that could roam across different sectors of the galaxy.
And they can treat type 2 civilizations as, you know, lunch, basically.
That's what the Borg is all about.
You know, if you watch Star Trek Voyager, what, five of nine?
art bell
I do it religiously.
michio kaku
Yeah, and that's.
So the Federation is a type 2 battling against a type 3, the Borg.
However, there is something called Type 4.
And as you pointed out, Type 4 would have to be beyond galactic.
They would have to be able to go between galaxies.
And they would essentially have the power of a god at that point, the energy output far beyond the Planck energy.
And so space and time is their playground.
And that would be the Q.
So the Q, for those Star Trek fans who are out there, would be beyond galactic in terms of energy output.
art bell
Here's a question that could potentially get you in trouble.
michio kaku
Yeah.
art bell
Doctor, is it possible that our creation was the two-second whim of a Q somewhere?
michio kaku
Yes, there has been some speculation among physicists about that fact that if a civilization attains type 4 status, they would have enough computer power to recreate realities of some sort.
And they may simply have a supercomputer with a hard disk, and they may simply want to run simulations like we run simulations in our supercomputers.
Like in my computer, I can run simulations of colliding black holes, for example.
Well, perhaps the Q may put in his, in his super CD-ROM, a simulation of our galaxy.
In which case, this phone conversation that we're having right now could be simply a simulation in somebody's CD-ROM.
art bell
So we're nothing but SimCity, the build-up portion of SimCity in somebody's video game.
michio kaku
That's right.
There have been several books about.
I find this rather disturbing.
I prefer not to believe that I am simply a thought on somebody's hard disk drive.
art bell
Well, sure, but if you imagine that there can be a type 4, a type Q, I hope there's lots of Star Trek fans, and I trust there are out there, who know who Q is, then you really do have to imagine that as one distinct possibility.
michio kaku
That's right.
See, before I thought about the Q and Type 4, I would have thought that this would be ridiculous.
But energy is for the taking.
You wait long enough, and if you grow at 3% gross national product increase per year, sooner or later you will hit type 1, type 2, type 3.
It's inevitable unless you blow yourself up.
And then Beyond Galactic is supergalactic.
And at that point, you will have enough computer power to simulate not just colliding black holes, but to simulate whole realities.
In which case, it could be very disturbing.
But it could be that we are, in some sense, somebody's hard disk drive playing at the present time.
art bell
Doctor, when I was 12 years old, I was beginning to get an intense interest in electronics.
And I lived at that time in Media, Pennsylvania.
And down the street from me lived a physicist who was deeply involved.
He explained it to me, and I can only explain it to you as he did to me, in trying to get reactions like nuclear reactions from materials other than uranium.
That's the work he was doing.
Is that theoretically possible?
I mean, he would tell me that in the desk in front of you, there is more potential energy if you knew how to unleash it than the world could even handle.
michio kaku
That's right.
In principle, a tiny bit of matter can be turned into a fabulous amount of energy.
That little matter could be uranium, and the energy could be the atomic bomb.
art bell
This was the man who got me my CAM license.
You know, he taught me.
He was my mentor.
And I have always wondered about that ever since.
michio kaku
Well, if you have antimatter, which, in fact, when I was in high school, I used to play with antimatter and I photographed antimatter and I went to the National Science Fair and won Grand Prize manipulating antimatter.
If you have large quantities of antimatter, it will annihilate with ordinary matter.
And this is not science fiction.
We do this every day with our atom smashers in Switzerland and in Chicago, outside Chicago.
Then, yeah, even a small piece of rock on your table would be enough to create the energy of a hundred hydrogen bombs.
art bell
Wow, all right.
michio kaku
You can totally annihilate that with antimatter, which is very expensive.
It would bankrupt the United States to create antimatter on that scale.
But it's doable.
It's possible.
art bell
It's doable.
All right.
Hold on, doctor.
Stay right where you are.
As a matter of fact, the man's name, I'm sure he's no longer with us, was Dr. Paul Weiss.
And he used to spend afternoons with me teaching me theory and code and electronics and giving me little hints of what he did or the kind of work he was doing.
That was his name, Dr. Paul Weiss.
Wonder if anybody knows him or remembers him.
I'm Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified
This is Premier Networks.
That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
Now, we take you back to the past.
On Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell
That's such a classic line, isn't it?
Good morning, everybody.
I'm Art Bell.
Dr. Michio Kaku is my guest, and he'll be back in a moment.
Now to Dr. Michio Kaku.
Doctor, welcome back.
michio kaku
Glad to be on again.
art bell
Okay.
I'm going to ask you to do what is probably going to be the most difficult thing for you, and that is to ask you to explain.
You're co-author of the string theory, right?
michio kaku
String fields.
Super string is one of the main branches of string theory.
unidentified
All right.
art bell
Can you explain that?
Make me understand it.
michio kaku
Okay, well, let me try.
unidentified
All right.
michio kaku
Einstein spent the last 30 years of his life chasing after the theory of everything, an equation one inch long that would allow him to, quote, read the mind of God.
It was an equation one inch long that would unify all the four fundamental forces into one coherent equation.
It would explain gravity, the electromagnetic force, like radio and light.
It would explain the weak nuclear force, which governs radioactive decay, and the strong nuclear force, which helps to light up the sun.
All that was to be included in one equation into one theory, and he failed.
He spent 30 years of his life chasing after this theory of everything, and he blew it.
He couldn't do it.
Well, today we think we have it.
Today, we actually have a candidate for the theory of everything.
art bell
The theory of everything.
michio kaku
Right, which would allow us to calculate what is called quantum gravity.
Quantum gravity is the most exotic.
It's the most gorgeous branch in all of physics.
Quantum gravity is what dominates the instant of the Big Bang and would explain to us what happened before the Big Bang.
Quantum gravity dominates the center of a black hole and would allow us to go through the center of the black hole.
So all the interesting phenomenon as to where the universe came from and what happens at the center of a black hole, we have to go to a theory of everything.
A theory of everything may eventually give us the ability to go through wormholes, perhaps.
This is a question mark, of course.
Perhaps to drill a hole in space and to leap across millions of light years in an instant.
Strings And Quarks 00:14:50
michio kaku
Perhaps the ability to bend time into a pretzel and to build a time machine.
All these are possible if you could solve a theory of everything, a theory of quantum gravity.
Now, we think that if you had a supermicroscope and could look at an electron, you would see not a point, but you would see a vibrating string.
And the string, of course, can have many notes on it.
You can have, just like a violin string, A, B flat, C sharp, F.
No one says that C sharp is more important than F. Everyone says it's just a violin string.
That's all it is.
Well, we think that that's why there are so many fundamental particles in the universe.
How come we have so many darn particles?
We have electrons, protons, neutrons, quarks.
We have mesons.
We have hundreds, thousands of particles.
When I got my PhD from Berkeley, I had to memorize about 100 of these damn particle names.
And now we realize that they're all perhaps just vibrations of a single object.
art bell
Have we actually seen yet a quark?
michio kaku
Well, we have not seen a quark because we think the quark is combined or confined inside a proton with glue.
The glue is called gluons, and the gluons condense to hold the quarks together.
art bell
And they actually call it gluons?
michio kaku
They become gluons, right?
The particle of glue that glues the quarks together are called gluons.
And it's called the color force because the quarks come in three colors.
And so this is called quantum chromodynamics.
And it's the theory of the strong interactions.
So we now have an understanding as to why we don't see individual quarks because they're bound together very tightly by these gluons which hold the quarks together.
art bell
Have we seen a gluon?
michio kaku
No, but we, in our atom smashers, we've smashed protons apart and in the debris, all the debris is consistent with the quark model.
Now the quark model itself is very ugly.
You have so many quarks.
They occur in many colors, many flavors, they have many gluons.
And still we have so many fundamental particles that we cannot believe that the quarks are fundamental.
We now believe that the quarks themselves are nothing but musical notes on this super string.
So when the super string vibrates one way, you get electricity.
When it vibrates another way, you get a quark.
When it vibrates another way, it turns into light.
When it vibrates another way, it turns into a graviton.
art bell
You're virtually saying that everything is vibration.
michio kaku
That's right.
Everything is vibration.
This is a theory of everything.
art bell
Oh, you mean, so I actually just nailed it?
Everything is vibration.
michio kaku
That's right.
And it's vibrations of what?
What is vibrating?
The little tiny strings.
Now, if this is so simple, then how come Nobel Prizes aren't awarded for this theory?
How come we don't get telephone calls from Stockholm?
And the reason is because the theory predicts that these strings vibrate in 10-dimensional hyperspace.
Now, when that result came out, we physicists, our minds were boggled.
We thought that this was science fiction.
This is not physics.
We believe that our universe is three dimensions in space and one dimension in time.
So string theory for many years was laughed at by many physicists.
art bell
So then, Doctor, would this field properly be called hyperdimensional physics?
michio kaku
That's right.
This is hyperspace.
This is the ultimate theory.
We think that in hyperspace there is enough room to accommodate all the fundamental interactions.
Now, we string theorists have the last laugh.
Now, all the major Ivy League schools and the major technical schools are scrambling to hire as many string theorists as they can.
Harvard now has hired two string theorists.
Princeton has three of them now.
Caltech has hired several.
They're all giant cum latelys, but they all begin to realize that, hey, this is the only game in town.
This could be it.
This could be, quote, reading the mind of God.
The mind of God could be in hyperspace, in other words, because only in hyperspace do we have enough room to accommodate all four fundamental forces into equations that can be compressed to just a few inches.
That's what's fantastic.
This is what's causing all the shock waves reverberating through the world of physics.
The latest incarnation of string theory is called M-theory.
If you've been reading the New York Times, you know that.
art bell
What is that?
michio kaku
M stands for membranes.
We now believe that strings can exist along with membranes in 11 dimensions.
So we've now kicked up one more dimension.
We're up to 11 now.
And the people at the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton are the ones pushing M-theory really hard.
And there must be at least 500 papers now written on M-theory.
And so string theory, it's still the same theory, of course.
String theory is now the center of gravity in all of physics.
If you want to become a theoretical physicist, if you want to follow in the footsteps of Einstein, you have to learn string theory.
And my book is the Bible of string theory.
It's called Introduction to Superstrings.
It's for second and third year PhD students.
But my book is essentially the Bible of superstring theory.
And it, of course, is wall-to-wall equations.
It's not afternoon reading.
art bell
I understand.
michio kaku
That's why I wrote the book Hyperspace.
I wrote the book hyperspace so that high school kids can really look at this theory and say, oh, my God, this is gorgeous.
This is beautiful.
This is, quote, the mind of God, as Stephen Hawking likes to say.
Stephen Hawking is a very big fan of superstring theory.
And he believes that this is it.
This could be the theory of everything.
art bell
Well, when we split the atom, we figured out how to blow things up in a bigger, better way and maybe ultimately destroy ourselves totally.
michio kaku
That's right.
art bell
If we were to come up with this equation, this theory of everything equation, I bet, like everything else, it would have good and evil uses.
michio kaku
Yes, but the energy at which this theory manifests itself is the energy of creation.
It's the energy of a black hole.
It's the energy of a Big Bang.
So we are too primitive to play with this theory.
You know, when Newton discovered the law of gravity, he could calculate what it would take to jump to the moon.
He was the first human who could do that.
But the answer was you'd have to jump 25,000 miles per hour to reach the moon.
art bell
Right.
michio kaku
And what did they have in England in the 1600s?
They had horses and carriages that went five miles per hour.
So he must have cried realizing that he had a theory, an equation one inch long, that would allow him to predict what it would take to manipulate gravity to reach the moon.
He couldn't imagine that one day we would have rocket ships.
Well, today, we physicists feel like Newton.
have a theory a theory of ten dimensions which would allow us to manipulate space allow us to play with space and time like the cube perhaps do you but we don't have the energy to do that do Do you actually have the mathematical formula that you believe proves this?
Well, proving it experimentally is extremely difficult because we would have to recreate...
unidentified
No, theoretically.
art bell
Theoretically.
Do you have one great line of math that theoretically explains this and...
And if you were able to actually do this, you would truly be able to, as you said, virtually become a god.
michio kaku
The equations so far have not been theoretically solved.
No human on the earth is smart enough to solve these equations right now.
These equations are well defined.
In fact, I wrote many of them myself.
These equations are well defined.
Mathematicians, some of the world's greatest mathematicians, have cracked their heads trying to solve these equations, and they have failed.
But I think that within my lifetime, a young physicist will solve these equations and be heralded as the next Einstein and win a Nobel Prize.
And verify the fact.
art bell
Doctor, do you think that it will take a virtual evolution in humankind or possibly a savant of some sort to come along and do what Einstein did and take the next step?
Or do you think that, as you said, some young physicist will come along and do it?
michio kaku
Well, I think that this theory is the next step.
We just can't complete it because this theory was discovered by accident.
We were not supposed to see this theory for perhaps another 50 to 100 years.
The theory was discovered by accident.
No human was smart enough to create this theory.
art bell
How'd we get it?
michio kaku
It was discovered by accident in 1968.
The first inkling of strings came in 1968 when two young postdocs at CERN, Geneva, Switzerland, were flipping through a math book of all things and came across the Euler beta function.
And that rocked the foundations of physics when the first indication that there could be simplicity coming from hyperspace rocked the world of theoretical physics.
And then the theory died in the 1970s because no one could believe that the mind of God could be in 10 dimensions.
But now, like I said before, it's the dominant theory in theoretical physics.
If you look at any physics journal, all the big papers on quantum gravity are not dominated by string theory.
It's even worked its way into science fiction, in comic books now.
It's such a powerful theory now.
In comic books, they even refer to string theory.
And I get all sorts of email from science fiction writers who want to incorporate string theory into their latest version of how we will go to the star and see wormholes and stuff like that.
So it's worked its way into the mainstream now.
And in Stephen Hawking's universe, the six-part series and PBS, I was in part six.
And in part six, Ed Witten, who's the leader of the field, and myself, explained what this theory is.
This is probably the greatest theory ever formulated in the history of humankind, the crowning achievement of 2,000 years of work on the nature of matter and space and time.
But we were careful to say that it's not finished yet.
We can't solve the equations.
We're not smart enough yet.
We're not clever enough to solve these equations.
But if you want to see what these equations look like, you can go to Amazon.com and see references to my book, Introduction to Superstrings, which has all these equations listed for you.
art bell
They would definitely be Greek to me, and I suppose most people, but there are a lot of people, I'm sure, who would like to see them.
michio kaku
Yeah, but the picture behind it is beautiful.
The physical picture of little strings creating musical notes, that our bodies are symphonies of strings, that the harmonies of a string are the laws of physics.
The physics can be reduced to the harmony of music.
unidentified
That's a fantastic idea.
art bell
It is.
And music, of course, is itself mathematical, is it not?
michio kaku
That's right.
In fact, the Pythagoreans 2,000 years ago were Greeks who believed that, well, they figured out the laws of harmony.
They thought that the universe must obey these laws of harmony.
art bell
Well, let me take you out way out on a limb into metaphysics almost.
Are you aware of the work that the Monroe Institute does?
michio kaku
No, but go on.
art bell
Dr. Robert Monroe was, he's now passed on, a proponent of out-of-body travel.
And he was able to induce this state in human beings by playing what he called this hemisink music with these vibratory tones behind it.
And they would induce a certain state in a person that would allow them to experience something in the metaphysical.
Now, it may well be there's a connection between what the work he was doing and what you're talking about because it's all vibratory.
And he was talking about other dimensions, and you're talking about other dimensions.
unidentified
That's right.
michio kaku
In fact, we physicists hate to admit this, but we owe a great debt to the mystics of the turn of the century who tried to capture higher dimensions and to visualize them.
And the techniques they invented back in 1900 or so are still used in mathematics textbooks to visualize higher dimensions, to visualize hypercubes and hyperspheres.
You know, when I was a kid, I used to dream that I could leap into the fourth dimension just by jumping up into the sky.
Now I realize I can't do that because, you know, again, think of fish in a pond, a fish carp swimming beneath the lily pads in a pond.
They think that two dimensions is all there is in the universe.
Their eyes point to the side of their face.
They swim beneath the lily pads.
And this shallow pond of theirs, they think, is the universe.
That's all there is in the universe.
And I used to go to the Japanese tea garden in San Francisco and just spend hours watching the carp swim swim beneath the lily pads in two dimensions.
And I used to wonder what happens if I were to grab one of the fish and lift them into hyperspace, the third dimension, where they would see a whole universe just outside their silly little pond.
art bell
Well, to show you why you're doing what you're doing, and I'm now doing what I'm doing when I was that age, I was jumping off of a very tall barns with umbrellas trying to fly.
Getting hurt.
unidentified
A lot.
art bell
I had flight on my mind.
All right.
Doctor, hold on.
We're at the top of the hour, which means you've got a pretty good long break here, and we've got a ton of stuff to talk about.
Picasso's Fourth Dimension 00:07:54
art bell
You're listening to one of the brightest minds in America.
His name is Dr. Michio Kaku.
And he is a professor of theoretical physics at the City University of New York.
He'll be right back.
I'm Art Bell, and this, of course, is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified
The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
More Somewhere in Time coming up.
Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM from the 25th of March, 1999.
art bell
Let me tell you, coming up this weekend, this Sunday on Dreamland, a brand new show, is William Buhlmann.
And we're going to be talking about the exact thing we left off this last hour talking about, out of body experiences.
That'll be coming up on Dreamland this coming Sunday.
In a moment, back to Dr. Kaku.
Dr. Michio Kaku, one of our nation's greatest theoretical physicists, is our guest.
And we were, actually, it worked rather well what I just did because I am doing a show this coming Sunday that I recorded earlier today, Doctor, on out-of-body travel.
And we were talking about the metaphysical and the kind of work that you do, and that there is a kind of a loose, rarely acknowledged relationship between the two.
michio kaku
That's right.
Back at the turn of the century, the fourth dimension occupied the imagination of writers and composers and artists.
And many of them tried to represent the fourth dimension on their canvases.
Picasso and Salvador Dali.
Many of their greatest paintings were inspired by the fourth dimension.
Salvador Dali's painting of Jesus Christ being crucified on a cross in space.
That was a hypercube, a four-dimensional cube that Jesus Christ was crucified on in Salvador Dali's famous painting of the crucifixion of Christ.
And Salvador Dali's famous painting of the melted clocks.
art bell
Yes.
michio kaku
The reason why he painted those melted clocks was he was trying to represent time as the fourth dimension.
And in the painting New Descending Staircase, where you see a sequence of the human body walking down a staircase, New Descending Staircase was also an attempt to represent time as the fourth dimension on canvas.
And in Picasso's painting, everyone wonders why is it that the woman's face, you can see her nose and her eyes and her lips, even if she's facing sideways all at the same time.
Picasso was trying to represent the fourth dimension with these women.
Because if you are peering down on the pond and look at the fish, you can see the fish in their entirety, the whole fish, all at once.
Which means that a hyper-being looking down on you could see the front and side and back simultaneously.
That's what Picasso was trying to do with cubism.
The essence of cubism is, in fact, the fourth dimension.
And so we sometimes forget the tremendous debt that we owe the artists, the mystics, the philosophers at the turn of the century who tried to grapple with representations of these higher dimensions in their artwork, their music, and in their artistic creations.
And we mathematical physicists steal, basically, many of the techniques that they pioneered at the turn of the century in our journals.
When we write journals, we use many of the techniques that they pioneered to represent higher dimensions graphically with, and today, of course, we can use PCs and computers.
But we owe a lot of debt to the people of the turn of the century who tried to represent the fourth dimension in their art, in their philosophy, and in their work.
art bell
Do you think, Doctor, that some of what is now in the field of the metaphysical, and there are certain things well documented, yogis, things yogis can do that they ought not be able to do, and some psychics and so forth and so on.
Do you think that there ever will be a scientific explanation for what they can do?
That will be when perhaps the theory of everything is upon us.
michio kaku
Well, if you can manipulate these higher dimensions at will, if you are looking down on the pond, looking down on the fish in this very, very shallow pond that are swimming in two dimensions, you would have the power of a god.
That is, you'd be able to lift the fish, make them disappear off the pond, and put them someplace else in the pond.
That's teleportation.
That's disappearing and reappearing someplace else.
art bell
To a fish.
michio kaku
To a fish, right.
To you, of course, it's nothing but lifting a fish in the third dimension.
But to a fish, the third dimension is hyperspace.
So their eyes only look to the side.
They can't see up.
Up makes no sense if you spent your entire life in a shallow two-dimensional pond.
And if you can imagine, you know, people living on a tabletop, two-dimensional stick figures living on a tabletop, you could peer inside their bodies, inside their bodies.
Their guts would be open to you, and you could perform surgery without cutting their skin.
Now imagine that, doing surgery without cutting the skin of a person.
Imagine taking the meat of an orange without even cutting the shell of the orange.
A safe with gold in it would be nothing but a square with little pieces of gold in it that is totally open to you.
You can simply reach into the middle of a clothes safe and take out the gold.
Now, so I'm not saying that there are beings that live in higher dimensions.
art bell
I'm sure you just gave a cheap thrill to Chase Manhattan.
michio kaku
That's right.
But if there really were beings that could move in these higher dimensions, that is type 3 people that have harnessed this kind of power, you could walk through walls, you could disappear, reappear, you could look with x-ray vision right into a safe and take out the gold without breaking the safe, taking out the gold without breaking the safe.
You could perform surgery without cutting people's skin.
And these are feats, of course, that many mystics claim that they can perform.
art bell
I would have said it if you had not.
michio kaku
Right.
Now, all I'm saying is, if you attain type 3 status, then the Planck energy, this 10 to the 19 billion electron volts, is yours for the taking, by definition.
And civilization with that kind of galactic power can manipulate energy on that scale.
At which point, space and time become unstable.
Holes begin to form, holes into hyperspace.
And if you could access that and play with it, then in principle, all the feats that you see talked about, walking through walls, disappearing, performing surgery, would be child's play, the same thing that you could do with a stick figure living on a tabletop, basically.
Balloon Expanding Universe 00:07:40
art bell
When we talk about this energy that is all around us, this energy that is in space, that is virtually everywhere.
michio kaku
That's right.
art bell
That Nikola Tesla talked of, I think.
michio kaku
The zero-point energy, right.
art bell
The zero-point.
Are we talking about hyper-dimensional energy?
michio kaku
Yes and no.
When Tesla first came up with the idea that you could extract energy from nothing, energy from the vacuum, right?
zecharia sitchin
Yes.
michio kaku
People laughed at him and it never got anywhere.
However, now we physicists are seriously looking at these old theories of energy in the vacuum.
If you've been reading the science journals, you know that the latest theory of creation is that the universe is expanding and accelerating.
The galaxies seem to be moving away from us at ever increasing.
art bell
Expanding speeds.
Now, how did they determine that?
michio kaku
Oh, well, if you look into the night sky, the stars you see at night are about 30 to 50 light years away.
But if you start to look at galaxies that are farther away, you're looking backwards in time.
Because, of course, light travels at a very slow velocity compared to the universe.
So you're looking backwards in time.
So you can have a snapshot of how fast the universe was expanding when it was very young.
So we took photographs of these ancient galaxies that we see in the heavens.
We calculated their expansion rate.
And we compared it with the expansion rate of our present universe.
art bell
Yes.
michio kaku
And we found that there must be an anti-gravity pushing the galaxies apart.
art bell
I was about to say that doesn't make sense to me because if we imagine a big bang, boom, it's like an explosion where what is blown up moves out very quickly at the instant of the explosion, but then the velocity of these pieces and parts begins to slow, gravity finally pulling them back to the ground.
michio kaku
Right, that's what we thought.
Think of a balloon, with the surface of the balloon being the universe.
So think of fish now that swim on the surface of a balloon, a two-dimensional balloon.
The balloon is expanding.
And we once thought that the balloon is getting slower and slower in its expansion.
But now we find that's not true.
We find that you can make a case that the balloon is speeding up, that it's accelerating.
And this has thrown physics into a turmoil.
The emails are just buzzing with hundreds of messages from different cosmologists saying, oh, my God, what's happening here?
And the conclusion is that the vacuum of Tesla may have an energy associated with it, which pushes the galaxies away.
This is anti-gravity.
Now, anti-gravity was not supposed to exist.
Things fall down.
They don't fall up, right?
I mean, I've never seen anything fall up.
However, anti-gravity is a very weak force, but it seems to be pushing the galaxies farther and farther away from you.
art bell
Well, then, why can't we prove that at a macro level?
And when I say macro, I mean our sun, our planets, if what you are suggesting is so, should slowly be repelling from each other, should they not?
michio kaku
Yeah, it's a very tiny force.
The force is called the cosmological constant.
And we're trying to get an exact beat on it.
We're trying to measure it.
And it's a very small force, and it's only measurable on cosmological distances.
You're not going to see, in other words, it would happen even inside the solar system.
But on a galactic scale, between galaxies, you would see this as a very powerful force because there's lots of vacuum between the galaxies.
Between the galaxies, it's pretty empty.
And there's lots of energy in this emptiness.
Even emptiness has energy associated with it, which is Tesla's original idea, reincarnated on a cosmological universal scale now.
And so between galaxies, there's lots of nothingness.
There's lots of vacuum.
Therefore, there's lots of energy pushing these galaxies apart.
But in our solar system, there's not much vacuum.
Our solar system is quite small.
Our solar system is only a few light hours across.
And therefore, there's not much vacuum to push.
But in outer space, there's plenty of nothingness out there.
And this cosmological constant seems to be pushing the galaxies apart.
In which case, the universe will probably die in ice rather than in fire.
We once thought the universe may die in fire in a big crunch.
But now we believe that the universe may die in a big freeze or a big chill.
art bell
Simply everything expanding away from everything else.
michio kaku
Until it reaches absolute zero, near absolute zero.
And that's pretty depressing.
I mean, sometimes I say to myself, why should I wake up tomorrow morning knowing that eventually the universe itself is going to wind down, that the stars will blink out, that eventually the galaxies will collapse into black holes, and everything is going to become dark and cold, and intelligent life is going to huddle next to the embers of dying neutron stars.
It's pretty pathetic.
We're going to have cosmic homelessness.
art bell
Perhaps so, but is it not also possible that like the Phoenix, there would be another bang?
michio kaku
The possibility that I like to believe is that we will leave the universe at that point.
The law of evolution says that when organisms face a harsh weather change, they leave.
They leave or they perish if the food supply dries up.
art bell
Or adapt.
michio kaku
Or adapt, right?
In our universe, if the universe gets so cold that we have to huddle like homeless people next to the embers of dying black holes, if it gets to that point, I would suggest that we use the Planck energy to drill a hole in space and leave our universe and go into another universe.
This is called the multiverse idea, which is now the dominant theory in cosmology.
There are now about three or four books written by leading cosmologists on the multiverse idea.
art bell
Would that be leaving in the physical or not?
Or would we transcend the physical?
michio kaku
Well, think of this balloon again.
If our universe is a balloon and the balloon is ever expanding and accelerating, getting colder and colder and colder to the point where our machines don't work anymore, we may want to take a lifeboat and drill a hole and go through a wormhole, slide, slide between our universe and the next universe.
There's a Fox TV program called Sliders, and on the very first episode of Sliders, they show a copy of my book, Hyperspace.
A boy is reading my book, and that starts the whole series, basically, called Sliders.
Now, I do not believe that I will slide in my lifetime or the lifetime of my great-great-great-grandkids.
But it is conceivable that billions of years from now, when we do attain, let's say, type 3 status, or type 4 perhaps, we will see the universe dying, and we will be very much tempted to build machines which will allow us to slide to the next bubble.
art bell
Now, we better put the caveat in here that we never got to when you gave the explanation of the various levels of civilizations, and that caveat was, in past shows we've talked about it.
Witnessing Nuclear Dawn 00:02:45
art bell
You said, percentage-wise, type zero civilizations, i.e. us, very rarely make it to be type one civilizations after discovery of element 92.
And the last time you and I spoke, I think we had just witnessed Pakistan lighting off a nuke and India lighting off a nuke and the bulletin of atomic scientists went and moved their clock further toward midnight and all the rest of it.
How do you feel about it now?
michio kaku
Well, let me say that ever since I was in high school, my mentor was Edward Teller, father of the hydrogen bomb.
And I know I owe a deep debt of gratitude.
He was the one who arranged a scholarship for me to go to Harvard University to begin my career as a physicist.
But he always impressed upon me the enormous power of these weapons.
He witnessed, of course, these weapons.
He helped to create the hydrogen bomb.
He's the father of the hydrogen bomb.
Yes, sir.
And now we have India and Pakistan with a blood feud that goes back centuries.
And they've detonated collectively, I think, what, 11 atomic and hydrogen bombs between them.
art bell
Something like that.
michio kaku
And that's horrible because the Pakistani arsenal has perhaps around 20 atomic bombs.
The Indians have perhaps around 80 atomic bombs.
Great.
We can estimate that, by the way, because we know how many ultra-centrifuges and how many reactors they have.
And between them, they could vaporize the Indian subcontinent if they felt like it.
And oh, by the way, as a footnote, they probably have a Y2K problem.
And when the year 2000 hits, think of what happens to Russian and Pakistani and Indian missiles.
art bell
Well, the Russians have actually made a statement with regard to Y2K.
They have so little money.
Their way of handling it, this really is official, is they have decided to, quote, wait and see what happens, end quote, unquote.
michio kaku
That's assuring.
art bell
Wait and see what happens.
michio kaku
You know, two weeks ago, the USA Today reported that one of the main agencies of the Pentagon that handles the command and control of our nuclear arsenal falsified, falsified data and claimed that they were in compliance with Y2K when they were not.
unidentified
I know.
michio kaku
And they were supposed to be in compliance by December 31st of this year, and they're not going to make it.
Y2K Predictions 00:02:57
art bell
I've been doing shows on Y2K for a long time.
They told me I was a crackpot, and I noticed two weeks ago on 60 Minutes they validated just about everything that we've been having on this show for a long time now.
michio kaku
Yeah, well, look, you know, I'm a physicist, and on December 31st, 1999, I'm going to be in my house.
I'm not going to make any plane reservations on that day.
I'm not going to be in an airplane.
I'm not going to make any stock transactions.
I'm not going to make any banking transactions.
I'm simply going to sit in my house, far away from a nuclear power plant, far away from a nuclear arsenal, and simply wait it out.
art bell
Well, I guess I would like to ask your professional opinion, though you're not a computer person, of what is going to happen on January 1st, 2000.
But we'll hold that one for the break.
So relax for a moment.
I love hooks.
know I love hooks.
And I did not realize that Dr. Kaku had a strong opinion on Y2K, but obviously, obviously he does, doesn't he?
So, as you can see, this is going to be a very interesting night.
One of our nation's greatest theoretical physicists, Dr. Michio Kaku, is my guest.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified
You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from the 25th of March, 1999.
Your Networks presents Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 25th, 1999.
art bell
Once again, I do seem to be here.
Constantly surprises me.
My guest is Dr. Michio Kaku, and he'll be right back.
It's a busy night, lots and lots to talk about.
So, as the old, very old saying goes, don't touch that dial.
unidentified
All right, here we go again.
art bell
Dr. Kaku, Y2K.
Now, I'm really interested in what you think about this.
Responsible People and Power Outages 00:15:34
art bell
I've had people like Gary North, Ed Yorden, and a variety of others, and we'll have more.
And the majority of them seem to think several things.
One, it's way too late.
And no matter what we do, we cannot prevent what is going to occur.
That there are tens of thousands or hundreds or even millions of embedded chips that cannot be fixed in time.
That even if you had as many programmers as you could gather, there would not be enough time to rewrite all the code.
We are interconnected computer-wise across this nation, in fact, across the globe, really.
And that even if we did a pretty good job here in the U.S., the rest of the world would crash us.
And there will be a depression.
There will be horrible things.
What do you think?
michio kaku
Well, I think for the most part, because billions of dollars are being thrown at this problem, that much of the problem will be alleviated.
However, and this is a big however, it only takes a small percent of the computers to fail to bring down whole networks.
Now, let me explain.
I live in New York.
In fact, I live next to Wall Street.
In fact, I can even see Wall Street from my window right now.
art bell
Do you really?
michio kaku
Yeah, I live not that far from Wall Street.
And I talk to friends of mine who program big banking programs in Wall Street.
And they tell me that they're hired for a week or two weeks, and they add a small little tentacle to a huge computer program, and then they're fired because they go on to the next project.
And after 20, 30 years, you begin to get an octopus with thousands of these little tentacles created by programmers who are hired for two weeks, do their job, and then they're fired.
Each little tentacle in turn could have a Y2K problem associated with it.
Well, why don't they change it?
Because anyone who tampers with the octopus could perhaps accidentally crash the whole system and cause hundreds of billions of dollars in trading losses.
art bell
And nobody wants to be responsible for that.
unidentified
That's right.
michio kaku
Nobody wants to be responsible for a crash.
So they simply live with this octopus.
Now, the way to change the problem is to, of course, duplicate the octopus.
That is, make a copy of it, turn the clock forward to the year 2000 to see whether it crashes or not.
But that costs money to do something like this.
Now, in Sweden, we had the first crash of a nuclear power plant that took place this past summer, in fact.
One of their software programs made a reference to the year 2000, didn't know what to do, so it simply shut down.
So we had the first shutdown of a nuclear power plant already this summer.
art bell
Nobody told me that.
michio kaku
Yeah, and as a consequence, a second Swedish utility got very nervous, and so it deliberately set its clock forward to 1999, and sure enough, its nuclear power plant would have crashed if it had simply waited to 1999.
So this is the first example of a nuclear power plant that fortunately did not melt down, but simply just shut down as a consequence of hitting a reference, not the year 2000, but a reference to the year 2000.
And so my point of view is that in the main, we're going to get 99% of these bugs eliminated.
We're spending billions of dollars on them.
But only a few percent are necessary to bring down very critical systems.
art bell
Well, and then there's one other aspect.
As well as we may be doing, which may not be good enough, the rest of the world has not yet really even begun.
michio kaku
That's right.
That's where I think the real danger is.
I think in the United States, we're going to see cripplings of certain major networks, which ones we don't know for sure.
But I think in Russia, and I think in other areas of the world where they simply don't have the cash to duplicate their octopuses and run the program by sitting the clock forward, that's the only way to do it, really.
And they also have embedded chips in their watches and in their refrigerators and what have you, that they're going to have the same kind of problem, except they're not throwing billions of dollars at this problem.
So I think in the rest of the world, you're not going to have a 99% compliance.
You're going to have maybe a 50% compliance because they simply don't have the money.
art bell
Well, do you know that on any given night, the Prime Minister of Great Britain said this, billions and billions, if not trillions of dollars flash across the world in trades.
Now, if the rest of the world is not ready, if the Japanese stock market, if the Chinese, the Hong Kong stock market, the rest of them, the British, the French, the Germans, if they're not ready, and we are, it won't make a whole lot of difference, will it?
michio kaku
Yeah, that's the danger.
Many of my friends who work with supercomputers, right, they kind of laugh at the Y2K problem.
But then I mentioned to them that everything's connected via the internet.
And if one system goes down, it's like the power grid.
Remember blackouts when one little squirrel knocks out one power line, then it brings down an entire city, like San Francisco got knocked out.
art bell
The other day, and they said that couldn't happen.
michio kaku
Yeah, all of San Francisco got knocked out.
art bell
I know.
michio kaku
And it's because we're so connected that one thing trips the next, trips the next.
And that's why this problem, I think, has been underestimated.
I think there's too much poo-pooing going on.
art bell
So do I. Doctor, here's something I want to understand, and maybe you can help me with the power grid.
I always thought that the power grid, as we understand it, existed so that if one little area lost power, it could draw power from another area.
And it existed so that like watertight doors in a submarine, if one compartment flooded, the door would slam shut, preventing the sinking and the death of all involved as you implode at crush depth.
So in other words, it was supposed to stop this cascade of events.
But we've had several examples in the western U.S. of exactly the opposite.
One little tiny problem in Idaho in some little substation somewhere taking down the western third of U.S., Canada, and Mexico.
michio kaku
Yeah, because the system actually operates slightly differently.
One of my friends works for a power company and explained to me that if there's a power outage in one area, you don't want to inconvenience a few thousand people.
So they draw power from the neighboring area.
And in the main, it works perfectly fine.
You simply borrow power from the next.
But if you overload it, then they in turn borrow power from the next, borrow power from the next, until you have this domino effect.
And the domino effect can ripple out and cripple whole power systems.
Now, you may say to yourself, well, they must have compensated for this, right?
But the probability of this happening is so small, and therefore they tend to overlook this problem as a serious problem.
art bell
No, what I'm asking is, why are the doors not designed to slam shut at some point?
michio kaku
They could.
They could.
But however, you know, they hesitate to do that because then it means thousands of people will be inconvenienced.
But what happens is millions of people are inconvenienced.
art bell
That's exactly right, yes.
michio kaku
When it brings down the other parts of the system.
So in the Maine, power companies think it's not going to happen, so don't worry about it.
But when it does happen, by saving the power of a few thousand people, you then deprive power to millions of people, and that's why you can bring down whole power systems because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
People say it's not going to happen.
Let's not put in the circuit breakers.
Let's not shut off power and inconvenience people and get a thousand angry people at us.
So what happens now is that you can bring down power systems and have a million angry people at you.
art bell
Or there is this for me to consider.
For you and I to be able to do what we are now doing requires, let us think about it for a moment, a lot of equipment on my end.
It requires a KU-band uplink that goes to a KU-band satellite, comes back down in Oregon, is mixed and matched, sent back up on another KU-band satellite, which goes to New Jersey, which then sends it up to a great big satellite, which sends it down to all the radio stations.
And we require what else?
Telephones.
It's a talk show.
Got to have phones, right?
michio kaku
Right.
art bell
Got to have power, right?
So I asked Gary North: what are the odds of my being, what would you suggest to me on January 1st, 2000?
There was a long pause, and he said, about a month's vacation.
michio kaku
Well, we'll see.
I'm going to write out that day myself.
Like I said, I'm not going to be on any airplane.
I'm not going to make any banking transaction.
art bell
But I am dependent on all of those things performing flawlessly to get from here to there.
michio kaku
Not just one system, but you're talking about hundreds of subsystems working flawlessly.
art bell
The Internet that carries me internationally?
unidentified
Mm-hmm.
art bell
All of it.
unidentified
Satellites.
art bell
All of it.
michio kaku
Relays.
Power updates.
art bell
On and on.
unidentified
Right.
michio kaku
The internet.
art bell
That's right.
unidentified
All of that.
art bell
It must all work for me to get from here to there.
So I stay out of airplanes, yes, but I'm really expecting something somewhat worse than that, and apparently you are too.
michio kaku
Well, it's the unknown that we don't know.
At the present time, I don't think anyone can say with confidence precisely what's going to happen because it's a race against time.
At least in the States, we're throwing billions of dollars at the problem.
But inevitably, we're going to overlook a few problems here, a few embedded chips there, and inevitably some of the systems are going to be brought down.
I think a few critical systems, I'm not sure which ones, are going to go down.
And around the world, a large number of critical systems could go down.
art bell
And all of this is going hard.
And all of this is going to occur as people are probably celebrating bringing in the millennium with lots of champagne and they're going to be partying like crazy and midnight is going to come and poof.
michio kaku
That's right.
unidentified
So hold your hat.
michio kaku
And again, this is a totally self-inflicted problem.
You know, it's just money, that's all.
But people pass the buck, you know.
They said, it's not going to happen during my watch.
Why should I worry about this?
You know, when I was in high school programming computers at Sanford University, I knew about the problem.
We talked about the problem.
You did, yeah, this is, you know, back in the early 60s.
art bell
And what were you saying back then?
michio kaku
And people kept telling me, don't worry about it, you're not responsible, it's not going to happen during our watch, let the next poor jerk worry about it.
And the next poor jerk said the same thing, it's not going to crash during my watch.
I want to be in Florida, i'm going to be retired by the year 2000, so let the next poor jerk worry about it.
And so everyone passed the buck, saying that yes, we know about this problem, we've written about it.
But hey look, i'm not responsible, it'll take people off my job to work on the Y2k.
Let my successor let him sweat about it.
art bell
I wonder if we're going to have the modern version of the Salem witch hunts.
michio kaku
Well, I think there are going to be a lot of responsible people.
Um, you know, I live in Manhattan, where we have the bridges that are falling apart the Brooklyn Bridge, the Manhattan Bridge yes, but every mayor of New York says well, they're not, the bridges are not going to fall during my watch.
Let me just put a little band-aid on it and let the next poor mayor, the next poor jerk, worry about it.
And that's how we get into these problems.
There's no responsibility.
No one is responsible for the Y2k problem.
art bell
All right, you said earlier that a lot of the uh things that we imagine for thousands of years, hundreds or thousands of years into the future right, we can't do now because we don't have the computer power for it or the brain power.
And yet computer power and speed is, I forget, doubling every 18 months or something like More's law.
You know, faster and faster and faster, as storage is increasing exponentially.
It's amazing.
Everything is getting cheaper.
michio kaku
You can't possibly buy a computer today 2020, though it could collapse around 2020.
I wouldn't bet on Silicon Valley after 2020.
It could become a rust belt after 2020.
art bell
Why?
michio kaku
Uh, because silicon uh, cannot be etched at the molecular level.
We're going to have transistors the size of molecules by then and silicon is not stable at that level.
So um, Silicon Valley could become a rust belt by 2015.
They're going to see real serious problems etching transistors uh, you know billions of them in in an area the size of your fingernail and they're going to be unstable.
And by 2020 silicon, the age of silicon will end, just like the age of vacuum tubes.
art bell
And what will begin?
michio kaku
Well, this is a wild card.
Uh, we may have to go to a new generation of computers, optical computers that compute on laser beams, quantum dots that compute on individual electrons, Dna computers that compute on dna molecules, protein computers, and the ultimate computer is the quantum computer, which does not yet exist.
But you know, in the year 2020 you may see a homeless person with a tin cup selling pencils that look suspiciously like bill gates.
Because the age of silicon, the laws of physics say the age of silicon must end, just like the age of vacuum tubes ended.
So Moore's law may begin to break down in 20 years.
unidentified
Um, all right, what about?
art bell
What about Consciousness?
intelligence.
In other words, as we get faster, as storage increases, at some point, is it possible, I'm asking you very godlike questions, but is it not possible that a computer will attain what we know to be consciousness, self-awareness?
michio kaku
Okay, well, in my book, Visions, I have a whole chapter on the next 50 years of computers.
In fact, the next 100 years of computers.
Now, our brain computes at about 500 trillion bytes per second.
As you listen to this radio station, your brain is computing at 500 trillion bytes per second.
So the next time your boss, by the way, thinks that you're not performing that well, you tell your boss, you're calculating at 500 trillion bytes per second.
Now, it turns out that by Moore's Law, you can calculate when our PCs will hit that speed.
By 2050, Machines Think Like Us 00:04:02
art bell
Well, I see Intel advertising that by the year 2000 or before, we'll be calculating, their chips will be calculating at 2 trillion bytes per second.
michio kaku
Yeah, but you see, by 2050, 2050, if Moore's Law were to hold, which it won't, but if Moore's Law were to hold to 2050, then you would have machines that are every bit as fast as our brain is.
But that's not going to happen.
Because by 2020, the age of silicon will end.
We're going to have to have a new type of computer that computes on molecules.
Because, of course, that's what our brain does.
unidentified
Probably then.
art bell
It just computes on molecules.
Some sort of biological creation.
michio kaku
That's right.
And it may go to DNA computers.
It may go to protein computers.
We will be computing on molecules because that's what our brain does.
Our brain is a beautiful molecular computer.
They exist.
Just take a look in the mirror.
You know, that 10 pounds of stuff you have on your shoulders is a molecular computer.
And its transistors, its transistors are on that kind of scale, the scale of molecules.
And that's where we're going to have to go.
We're going to have to go in that direction.
And that's why I think that real thinking machines, machines that have consciousness, will not happen by 2050 because of this problem.
Maybe late in the 21st century.
But some probably have silicon consciousness.
They're not going to think like us.
They'll have a different type of consciousness.
But I think that eventually they'll get closer and closer to our ability to think.
And in my book, by the way, I've interviewed some of the leading people in artificial intelligence theory.
And they all tell me the same thing, that we should have one hand firmly on their plug when we reach that fantastic computation speed, just so that we can yank their plug if they get uppity and too smart allocates.
art bell
Well, aren't they very likely to?
I mean, from our perspective, they will think logically and as quickly or even eventually faster than we do, no doubt creating their own successors, like nanotechnology tells us.
And eventually, even if we think we have our hand on the plug, they're smarter than we are.
michio kaku
This is for the 22nd century now.
art bell
We should approach this very tenuously, shouldn't we?
michio kaku
Right.
In the 22nd century now, when we do have optical computers or quantum computers that can compute at the molecular level and have machines that are every bit as fast as us, some computer scientists are not worried about this because they claim that we will merge with them, that we are creating the next successor, a homo superior, basically, is what we are creating.
Individuals that will be bioengineered that will have cybernetics included.
They'll be stronger, healthier, prettier, you know, can compute faster and have better personalities and won't be so cranky and what have you.
We could be creating our successors.
Now, I don't know about this, but I was shocked to find that many of the leading people in this field believe this, that we are creating the next step in human evolution, homo superior, that'll be half machine, half genetically engineered to be better than us.
Now, I say that we need enormous democratic controls over this technology.
You know, the ability to create stem cells that could give us a form of immortality, the ability to control telomerase, which will slow the aging process, and the ability to create, you know, computer chips that are every bit as fast as parts of our brain.
Spare Parts for the Future 00:15:55
art bell
They're already getting very close now to this aging process thing, aren't they?
michio kaku
That's right.
Two developments just in 1998 have shocked the world of biology.
One took place this last month with the discovery of human stem cells, which means that one day when our children, our grandchildren, are born, we may create spare parts for them.
All right, standard for children.
art bell
Hold that thought, Doctor, and we'll be right back.
Top of another hour.
I'm Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified
This is Premier Networks.
That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
Somewhere in Time with Art Bell.
Continues, courtesy of Premier Networks.
art bell
Anybody out there want to live forever?
We're going to talk about longevity, and I mean longevity with Dr. Michio Kaku in a moment.
As you know, I interview Dr. Klatz frequently, and there really have been a lot of advances recently.
Things that will eventually lead to longer and longer lives, hundreds of years, perhaps, maybe even eternity.
And according to Dr. Klatz, even the possibility, if we can hang on, if you and I can hang on for, say, another 30 years, even the possibility of moving backwards, getting younger.
Can you imagine that?
Is it possible?
unidentified
We will ask Dr. Kaku in a moment to Dr. Michio Kaku.
art bell
Dr. Kaku, there have been recent...
First of all, what are stem cells, please?
michio kaku
Okay, stem cells are the mother of all cells.
They are cells that can reproduce and create practically any organ of the body.
So they are the most elusive of all cells.
They are the fountainhead, the mother of all cells.
art bell
Really?
michio kaku
And just last month, they were isolated for the first time in history.
1998 is a banner year, not just for cosmology, but for biotechnology and the aging process, which means that within five to ten years, according to many of the Nobel laureates and directors of laboratories that I interviewed for my book, Visions, in five to ten years, we'll probably grow the first human liver.
The liver is not that complicated.
It's just a few tissues.
There are about 200 tissues that make up the human body.
The liver is not that complicated on that scale.
And Mickey Mantle, who was a hard-drinking man, right?
Mickey Mantle died because his liver gave out.
And there are thousands of people in line for livers and kidneys.
And in five to ten years, we will start to grow the first of these organs of the human body.
Skin cells already, by the way, can already be grown.
We can grow about two acres of skin from just a few of your skin cells.
unidentified
Really?
michio kaku
Yeah, about two acres' worth.
And that, of course, would be a godsend in case of a burn.
Burn victims can be saved by being wrapped in their own skin.
And in the future, near future now, because we've isolated the stem cells, we expect to grow livers and perhaps kidneys.
The higher organs are more difficult.
The heart and the other organs have many kinds of tissues and are going to be more difficult to grow.
But we see this happening as organs begin to wear out.
We will simply have spare parts.
And in the future, when children are born, chances are we'll take a few of their embryonic stem cells near birth, at birth, and freeze them as basically spare parts for our children when they're born.
This is, of course, still science fiction, but what is not science fiction is the discovery last month that the holy grail, the holy grail of embryology, was finally found.
Now, in January of this year, the holy grail of the aging process was finally found.
Human skin cells were taken by the Geron Corporation and placed in a petri dish.
Usually human skin cells age by dividing 50 times.
They get old and then they die.
In fact, that's one of the main reasons why we die, because our cells only reproduce about 50 times and then they die.
art bell
Right, there's a little clock ticking in there, isn't there?
michio kaku
That's right, called the telomer.
art bell
Yes.
michio kaku
The telomer is like the plastic tip of your shoelace.
Every time you tie your shoelace, that plastic tip gets shorter and shorter until it frays.
art bell
That's right.
michio kaku
Now, we scientists wondered, where is the clock of a cell?
What tells the cell to die after 50 reproductions?
There's no clock.
But then we began to realize that at the ends of chromosomes, chromosomes are like your shoelace.
And the plastic tip at the end of your shoelace is the telomer.
And the telomer gets shorter and shorter and shorter every time the cell divides until it hits 50.
When it hits 50, then the cell begins to fall apart and die.
We took telomerase, which alters the shortening of the telomers, hit human skin cells with telomerase, and stopped the aging process cold.
Again, this is not with animal cells.
We're not talking about insects.
We're talking about human cells in a petri dish.
They've divided 90 times.
And just like the ever-ready bunny, it does keep on going.
art bell
Okay.
Isn't the ultimate answer, I mean, cancer, what is cancer?
Cancer is the out-of-control, continuous growth of cells, multiplication of cells, out of control until it finally chokes everything out and kills you.
michio kaku
That's right, the tumor.
art bell
Now, wouldn't the answer to the generation of cells at a reasonable rate ultimately be known when we cure cancer?
Or you could approach it the other way around, I suppose.
michio kaku
Well, cancer also uses the telomer trick.
We now realize that cancer, when it spins out of control, it stops the telomers from contracting to zero, and therefore cancer cells are immortal, just like stem cells are immortal.
Sex cells, stem cells, and cancer.
art bell
Until they kill their host.
michio kaku
Until they kill their host, right?
And they're basically immortal.
art bell
Yes.
michio kaku
However, if you can fine-tune telomerase, in other words, we just did this just this past January.
It's a very new technology.
If we can fine-tune it so that in the future we take a cocktail of telomerase, different kinds of telomerase for different organs of the body.
And plus, there are probably other enzymes, other aged genes that affect the human body.
We found three AIDS genes so far.
Three of them have been discovered.
Two of them speed up the aging process.
And one of them, the gene for telomerase, stops the aging process, at least in certain cells.
And one of the genes which speeds up the aging process is for progeria.
You've probably seen pictures of children that die of old age.
art bell
I have, yes.
michio kaku
These are pictures published in the National Inquirer.
Children look like plucked birds.
They lose all their hair.
They have the features of a bird.
Their teeth fall out.
They die of a heart attack by the time they hit puberty.
That is a gene called progeria, which also accelerates the aging process.
It shortens the telomers real fast.
So we now realize that these telomers are involved with either speeding up or stopping the aging process.
Cancer stops the aging process cold, while progeria accelerates the aging process.
Now, if you can fine-tune this, and this is the key, if you can locate all the AIDS genes and fine-tune it, in the future, our children may take a cocktail of telomerase when they hit 25 or 30 and decide to cruise, cruise at 25 or 30 for 20, 30, 50 more years.
That is now conceivable.
It was inconceivable last year.
It is now conceivable that our children will have a technology by which all the aged genes have been unraveled by the Human Genome Project, and we will fine-tune it.
They will take a cocktail of this substance and slow down the aging process and cruise at the age of 25 for another 25, 30 years.
art bell
Now, there's something to be jealous of.
michio kaku
That's right.
It may not be for us, but it may be for our children.
And again, this technology is growing so fast that it's hard to make any predictions.
But in my book, I say flatly that, hey, this is now a working model, a working model of the fountain of youth.
This is not the fountain of youth.
You should not buy stock in this company thinking you're going to become a millionaire and live forever.
But it is now a working model by which we can begin to extract other genes for the aging process.
art bell
But very much like our discussion with regard to computers a little while ago, shouldn't we approach this rather cautiously?
We are approaching 6 billion people now on the planet.
Were we to slow down the aging process and therefore the process of dying by that amount or more without proper birth control, and so far we certainly are not controlling ourselves there.
michio kaku
In my book, Visions, I interviewed the people at the United Nations, their best computer projections.
They figured that by 2100, the population of the Earth could begin to seal off and stabilize at about 11 billion, about double the current population.
And the reason for that is that the world's greatest contraceptive is prosperity.
As soon as nations become prosperous, peasants no longer want to have 12 children, of which six die in childbirth, of which two become their social security when they age.
art bell
Yes.
michio kaku
And two of them take over the family business and one goes to war.
When they become middle class, they want to have two kids.
And they want to have two cars.
They want to have MTV.
They want to have vacations.
unidentified
And who needs 12 kids?
art bell
Absolutely true.
Absolutely true.
But they want TVs.
They want VCRs.
They want a couple of cars in the garage.
They want a nice house.
michio kaku
They want hamburgers.
They want refrigerators.
art bell
They want all of that stuff.
michio kaku
All of which is going to drain the resources of the planet.
art bell
Yes, sir.
michio kaku
Now, let me explain.
In Europe, the population, in fact, is actually shrinking.
The birth rate has to be 2.1 children per woman in order to keep a steady state.
In Italy, Germany, Sweden, Japan, Singapore, we are seeing negative growth rates.
Their population is actually contracting rather violently.
And the same thing in the United States.
If it wasn't for immigration, the United States population would also contract as women have fewer than 2.1 children.
And Italy, which is a Catholic country, has one of the smallest birth rates in all of Europe.
art bell
And a lot of disobedience, I guess, huh?
michio kaku
That's right.
But in third world countries, the numbers are dropping.
Women no longer have 10 kids.
They have like four, three to four kids in places like Bangladesh because of education of women, because of knowledge and education, rather than prosperity.
Their population is dropping.
But this still means that with four children per family in the third world, that's where most of the growth will take place.
Now, this means that if China, for example, has a huge middle-class population, there's enough room for them.
There's no problem with that.
The problem is that if they all want to live like Hollywood movie stars.
art bell
Or even the average American.
michio kaku
If they want to live like the average American with two cars and access to hamburgers and refrigerators, there's not enough hamburgers.
There's not enough refrigerators.
art bell
And there sure as hell isn't enough oil at present levels of use.
We should run out in about 45 years.
michio kaku
Probably less than that.
The projections I've seen put it at within 25 to 30 years, prices are going to soar.
Prices will soar first.
And then, you know, we're going to see disruptions of our economy take place.
art bell
We will fight over oil.
michio kaku
Right.
However, that's why I think that solar hydrogen will be the energy of choice within the next 20 to 30 years.
We are within striking distance now of approaching the cost of oil with solar technology.
Right now, solar technology is still more expensive than oil or coal.
But within 10, 20 years, as oil prices slowly begin to rise, right now, of course, oil is dirt cheap.
There's an oil glut right now.
But within 10, 20 years, price of solar will drop to the point where it's going to be competitive with oil and coal.
And it'll mean that we could make a slow transition to solar hydrogen technologies.
The car, for example, the solar, the electric hybrid, is perhaps the next generation of power sources for the cars.
art bell
Here's my problem.
We're not moving fast enough.
Like Y2K, isn't it going to come upon us nearly all at once?
michio kaku
That's right.
There's going to be a race against time.
We are a type zero civilization.
We are highly unstable.
We have all the remnants of the fundamentalism and all the ethnic conflicts of the last 2,000 years still with us.
People that have hated each other for 2,000 years still hate each other.
art bell
They still do.
michio kaku
And they have nuclear weapons now.
art bell
That's right.
michio kaku
So I think that in our galaxy, there probably were many type zero civilizations, just like the astronomer Frank Drake predicted.
Maybe 10,000 of these civilizations that are type 0, just like us.
However, very few of them negotiated these barriers, the population problem, discovering element 92, uranium, discovering what Dustin Hoffman discovered in the movie Graduate, plastics and petrochemicals and pollution that comes out of the petrochemical industry.
art bell
I was recently in Bangkok, and Bangkok is an interesting city, Doctor.
Over 50% of the traffic police in Bangkok have congenital lung disease, probably fatal lung disease.
Global Warming Crisis 00:15:20
art bell
And you cannot walk in Bangkok without every breath you take hurting you.
That's how bad it is.
And Bangkok is not necessarily unique.
michio kaku
Yeah, I was in Bangkok actually myself about three months ago.
I was keynoting a conference about the 21st century in Bangkok.
art bell
And you saw some of it.
michio kaku
It is horrible.
And you see the economic crisis there.
art bell
Oh, yes.
michio kaku
And you see really the worst of what could happen if things spiral out of control.
And that could happen on a planetary basis, not just in Bangkok, but for the Earth.
If we get too cocky and if we don't realize that the Earth is finite, and there could be a lot of dead type zero civilizations out there in space.
If we go into space and visit other planets, we may find other planets whose atmosphere is radioactive and whose atmosphere is just full of hydrocarbons and pollution.
And maybe that's why we can't pick their signals up with our radio telescopes.
art bell
Because there aren't any.
michio kaku
Because many of them, very few, reach type 1.
See, once you reach type 1, and that's where we're headed, once you reach type 1, if you successfully reach type 1 civilization, then you become planetary.
Where else can you go unless you colonize Mars?
And that, of course, takes hundreds and hundreds of years to do that.
art bell
Indeed, but be honest with everybody.
What are the actual odds that we will become type 1?
michio kaku
Okay, well, first of all, we physicists think that we are maybe 100, 200 years away from being type 1.
If we can survive.
You see the beginning of English, the language of type 1.
The Internet is a type 1 telephone system.
That's what the Internet basically is all about.
We see the beginnings of a Type 1 economy.
The European Union, NAFTA, gigantic trade blocs are forming.
You see the beginning of a Type 1 culture.
Any human on the Earth recognizes the figures of Madonna and Arnold Schwarzenegger.
That's going to be the culture of Type 1.
It's going to be Hollywood.
It's going to be very flashy.
Young kids are going to be into rock music and what have you.
That's a type 1 culture that's emerging in every corner of the earth at the present time.
However, as you pointed out, Pakistan and India between them have over 100 nuclear weapons.
art bell
What I asked you for, actually, were odds.
michio kaku
Well, it's hard to say, but it could be a few percent.
Of the type zeros out there, very few of them may have successfully become the fundamentalist barriers.
art bell
Not better than 10%, Doctor?
michio kaku
Probably less.
art bell
Less than 10%.
All right, hold it right there.
That's what I thought.
This is Coast to Coast AF.
unidentified
This is Premier Networks.
That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
Listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from the 25th of March, 1999.
art bell
It is indeed, and my guest is Dr. Michio Kaku, one of our nation's premier theoretical physicists.
He teaches at the City University of New York, and he'll be right back.
Frankly, everything is a race.
Our race to get more energy, better energy, cheaper energy, our race to not multiply as quickly as we are before we can live longer, our race to leave the planet before it becomes unlivable.
Everything's a race.
And we're odds makers here.
The odds don't sound so good to me.
If it's going to be under 10%, that's not a very good bet, but of course, you've got to take it, I guess, huh?
michio kaku
Right.
See, what happens is, you know, our brain is pretty much identical to the brain that came out of Africa 125,000 years ago.
You take a caveman from those days and give him a shave and put them on Wall Street, and they look like all the other people on Wall Street.
However, because our thinking processes haven't changed for 125,000 years, we think that way.
We think we have unlimited resources, that we have a whole forest that we can conquer.
But now we have nuclear weapons.
Now we have populated the whole planet Earth.
But what happens is, you know, our caveman brain responds to emergencies when we get very close to a catastrophe.
And only then are we really shaken to the core.
And then we start to galvanize the troops.
We start to then put our shoulder to the grindstone and start to move things collectively.
So I think what's going to happen is that we are going to face a series of crises in the next decade, two decades, three decades.
And each of these crises is going to really shake up the world.
And at that point, we will muster collectively enough political and monetary power to resolve these crises.
Now, whether we can resolve each and every one of them, that's the big question, Mark.
Look at the ozone problem.
You know, the ozone layer has been pretty much collapsed over the South Pole.
Satellite photographs over the South Pole show a huge ozone hole the size of the United States.
art bell
And getting bigger, yes.
michio kaku
And it's getting bigger, right?
And it's going to get worse.
It's going to probably peak in the next 10 to 20 years.
It hasn't peaked yet.
But the nations of the Earth got together and signed the Montreal Protocols and said, hey, you know, we're going to all die of skin cancer.
And animals that don't have suntan lotion, they're going to die of skin cancer and they're going to be blinded because there's no ozone layer.
art bell
Actually, they already are.
Look at the research with frogs and frog eggs and all the rest of that.
michio kaku
Yes, some people think they are like the canary in the mine shaft.
The canary, as you recall, were taken by miners down to the mineshaft because canaries were sensitive to methane gas.
Humans cannot smell methane very well, but these canaries would collapse and alert the miners.
art bell
When they drop dead, it's time to go.
michio kaku
That's right.
And so some people think that the mutations in frogs and salamanders and the strange kinds of illnesses affecting animals.
art bell
Coral reefs are dying.
michio kaku
That's right.
And phytoplankton around the South Pole is dying.
art bell
Yes.
michio kaku
And that's the food chain.
art bell
The frozen tundra in Alaska is melting.
Chunks are breaking off in the Antarctic.
We could go on and on.
michio kaku
Two chunks of ice.
You know, a chunk the size of Delaware broke off just a few months ago.
And a few years ago, another chunk the size of Rhode Island broke off.
Now, these are huge chunks of ice.
unidentified
Oh, I know.
michio kaku
Size of Delaware, size of Rhode Island.
art bell
I know, and this is being attributed, for the most part, to global warming.
Now, that may or may not be the case, but I know there is a large political constituency out there that says the whole concept is ludicrous, and it's being promulgated by people who want to return us to the Stone Age and bring the U.S. down to the level of other countries around the world.
And this, Doctor, is a very, very powerful political force.
michio kaku
I agree, but I also think that most scientists, in fact, I would estimate now about 99% of climatologists believe that there are enough signs, enough signs with regards to hurricanes that are battering Florida and the Caribbean, the melting of the tundra of Alaska, the breaking up of the ice shelf in Antarctica, the weird weather we've been having.
Enough signs, all of it pointing in one direction, to warrant caution.
Not that we should have a crash program and go back to the Stone Age, but to begin the process of weaning ourselves away from oil and coal and going towards solar hydrogen as an alternative economy.
Now, I mean, think about it.
We wouldn't have to have a Gulf War.
We wouldn't have to worry about Saddam Hussein anymore.
We wouldn't have to have the, what, the American 7th Fleet keeping oil prices low every time some dictator in the Middle East starts to rattle his saber.
We could begin to increase fuel mileage.
You know that with the electric hybrid car, you can get 60 miles a gallon on the electric hybrid car.
And the hypercar, which the Swedes have been playing with, the hypercar gets 90 miles a gallon.
Now, with that kind of energy efficiency, you wouldn't have to worry about Iraq.
You wouldn't have to worry about all the crises that take place there because we have fuel-efficient cars in the United States.
Our standard of living is going to be as high as ever.
art bell
Well, I really like the half-full glass that you paint.
But at the same time, let me interject this to counter what you have said.
Now that oil is again cheap, gasoline is cheap, we have seen the return of the muscle car.
Have you noticed?
michio kaku
That's right.
You see it on the streets.
art bell
During the 70s, when we had the terrible gas crunch, why we began to get all kinds of fuel-efficient cars, the moment gas got cheap again, where'd we go?
michio kaku
That's right.
art bell
We went right back to where we were.
michio kaku
Right.
And unfortunately, that's the ape brain, the brain of the forest, saying that, well, gee, the crisis has disappeared.
Why not go back to our profligate wayward ways and live like we used to until the next crisis comes and we panic again.
art bell
And I'll tell you, this ape used to drive a Geometro and just bought a Trans Am.
michio kaku
And unfortunately, part of that is programmed into the brain.
You know, our brain is programmed to respond to emergencies and crises.
art bell
Yes.
michio kaku
And unfortunately, that's how you move people in a democracy, which is very sad.
But you have to scare the pants off people sometimes before they will move on something.
art bell
I try and try, but they don't want to listen.
We ring alarm bells all the time about the environment here.
And what it brings, I can tell you, since I talk to millions, it brings anger.
You do your own radio program, and I'm sure when you've talked of these types of topics, you've received all kinds of vitriolic comment, and if not, on the phones, then certainly by email and letter.
Haven't you?
michio kaku
Yes, but I also realize that I have the weight of scientific evidence behind me.
I mean, there are any number of Nobel laureates, any number of climatologists that will back everything that I say.
art bell
Oh, I know, but I never said politics had a thing to do with science.
michio kaku
Right.
Like oil and water, right?
It sounds like don't make it.
art bell
That's correct.
Yes.
All right.
Anyway, wherever we're going with that, we're going.
I just wonder, again, playing the odds, even though you're an optimist, you've got to be honest with people.
It's less than 10% and maybe only a very few percent that will ever go from type zero to type one.
michio kaku
Yeah, and the shame is that right before our eyes, we can see the beginnings of a type one civilization.
art bell
Sure.
michio kaku
Again, it's maybe a hundred years away.
But you read the newspapers and you read about the dominance of English, about the dominance of MTV and television, the formation of currencies across national borders.
art bell
Oh, yes.
michio kaku
You see the inevitable.
You know, we're not going to be able to colonize Mars for several hundred years.
We're stuck on the Earth.
And with the Internet wiring up everybody, within 10, 20 years, all of us will have a watch with the Internet on it.
And we'll simply talk to the watch in English and access anybody else's web page and everyone else's channel just by talking to our appliances.
Now, this is coming.
It means that in the future, we'll simply be able to have embedded chips in our clothing and our furniture that will allow us to access the technology of a Type 1 civilization.
For example, I saw a demonstration of the smart glasses.
Glasses that you put on that you can download videos on so that if you're at the beach and there's a home emergency at the home office, your glasses will ring when you're at the beach, and your glasses will be hooked up to the internet, and you'll download the video conference of what's happening at the meeting.
You'll be at the meeting when you're at the beach.
And your glasses will be able to recognize people's faces.
Again, these prototypes already exist.
And at a cocktail party, how many times have we bumped into somebody and said, is this Jim, John, Jake, who is this person?
In the future, your glasses will tell you it's Jim.
Because this is the kind of computer power that's linking the world.
So we're seeing the beginning of a Type 1 civilization emerge.
And I would really hate to see the whole thing spoiled by the fact that we still have the fundamentalism, we have the ethnic passions that have caused massacres and genocide over the last 2,000 years.
And I would really hate to see that spoil our march toward a Type 1 civilization.
art bell
But it is most probable.
michio kaku
It is fairly probable because we have so many emergencies that we have to negotiate.
Each one successively.
We have to negotiate correctly.
Each one requires scaring the pants off people as we head toward an ozone problem.
unidentified
I think that's a problem.
michio kaku
We can toward a global warming problem.
art bell
I think that's my purpose in life, is scaring people.
Listen, Endeavor, Endeavour, just came back to Earth after attaching our part of the brand new, spanking new, $100 billion space station, our part to the Russian part.
And I'd like to get your thoughts on the efficacy of the $100 billion, or no doubt by the time it's done much more, dollar space station.
michio kaku
Well, this may come as a surprise to many of your listeners, but every scientist who's looked at the science versus the cost has realized that it costs too much for the little science that we're going to get from the space station.
Single Rockets to Mars 00:07:11
michio kaku
Microgravity is what we call weightlessness, but even President George Bush's science advisor, Dr. Alan Bromley of Yale, once said that microgravity is of micro importance.
The space station, all its duties can be done by single rockets.
We don't need a $100 billion bathtub in outer space.
The money, this $100 billion, could be transferred to a project to go to Mars instead.
You know, Columbus did not need a refueling station.
He did not need a space station in the middle of the Atlantic to reach the new world.
Columbus just did it in one big jump.
And that's how we can do it to Mars and to the other planets.
We don't need a halfway house up there.
We don't need a space station in that sense.
So it's going to drain a lot of money.
art bell
Well, when you say go to Mars, when you say go to Mars, do you mean send men to Mars or do you mean send robots to Mars?
michio kaku
I think in the near term, we should build a robot base on Mars.
It would be quite cheap compared to the space station.
You know, just last week, we launched the Mars Climate Orbiter.
art bell
Yes.
michio kaku
It cost $0.3 billion.
That's pocket change.
That's the interest on the International Space Station.
You could send a whole fleet of robots to Mars with the interest on the money in the bank that would go to an International Space Station.
art bell
So then why are we doing it?
michio kaku
Well, it's national prestige.
Back in the 70s when the Russians were beginning to put up the Mir, we had to do a space station too.
And so there's been this rivalry, this horse race between the Russians and the United States.
Well, the Russians have dropped out.
The Russians are no longer competing with us.
And in fact, we are now funding their program.
The Russian Zaria module was paid for by United States taxpayers.
art bell
I know.
michio kaku
The Russian space program is basically paid for by you and me and the American taxpayer.
So I think that for the buck, for the buck, we should really begin to put a robot base on the moon and a robot base on Mars, paving the way for eventual human habitation.
Because at some point we're going to have to leave the Earth, right?
I mean, at some point, the Earth's, you know, it's going to be dangerous to be on the Earth with meteors and comets and what have you.
But that's not for centuries.
We still have centuries in which we can lay the foundation for that.
But in the meantime, I think that we're spending too much money on the International Space Station when every scientific body, including the National Academy of Sciences, which advises the United States Congress, every scientific body has said that dollar for dollar, we could better spend the money by simply going to the moon, going to Mars, going to Jupiter with robots, rather than building this bathtub in outer space.
And what are they going to do up there?
Wait at us.
All the experiments that are done up there could be done with single rockets for a fraction of the cost.
art bell
Well, I mean, that really is a very good question.
What are they going to do up there?
michio kaku
Well, you know, the space shuttle, for example, all the space shuttle does is it launches commercial satellites.
But as you know, we could launch commercial satellites with single rockets.
art bell
Sure.
michio kaku
We don't need a space shuttle to do that.
art bell
Well, they do other little experiments and grow things and make crystals and do stuff like that.
michio kaku
Right, but that also can be done with single rockets.
We can also, with a fraction of the cost, do experiments on crystals with single rockets.
The point here is that the Cold War is over.
We don't have to win the propaganda race with the Russians.
We won.
We scored the touchdown.
We don't have to always have these space spectaculars with humans waving at us from out of space because that costs a lot of money.
The NASA space budget is only $14 billion.
And that money is large amounts of that is going to be diverted for the space station because it's going to cost upwards of $100 billion.
And the robotic colonization of Mars, each mission costs about 0.1 to 0.3 billion dollars.
So dollar for dollar, we could be paving the way for the exploration of Mars.
While here we are building an international space station that's only 200 miles above the Earth.
I mean, think about that.
It's only a hop, skip, and a jump directly above the Earth.
art bell
Mars is an interesting place.
Mars apparently once had an atmosphere and once had water.
michio kaku
That's right.
Our Viking has photographed riverbeds and ocean beds.
art bell
Is that now a fairly conclusive piece of knowledge?
michio kaku
That's right.
I have beautiful photographs of the floodplains.
They look very much like the Mississippi River Delta.
art bell
I can't let the good doctor get away without asking about UFOs.
Doctor, there is overwhelming evidence that things are flying in our skies that are unidentified.
There's no question about it.
Even if you eliminate all of the obvious hoaxes and the misinterpretations in the swamp gas and all the rest of it, there's been some serious study at major universities lately that's begun to say, hey, look, we had better study what's going on because it appears something is going on.
What do you say?
michio kaku
Well, in fact, I interviewed the scientist at Sanford University who was one of the co-directors of the study, the first since the Hondan report.
art bell
Yes, sir.
michio kaku
And he eliminated many of the hoaxes and many of the swamp gases, many of the radar echoes.
And he had a handful of cases where you had airline pilots and people of reputable reputation with multiple sightings, not just one person with one flying saucer, but many people seeing the same object with the same characteristics.
Now, I was a little bit disappointed with the report because the conclusion was that we should simply study these objects.
My attitude is to propose propulsion systems, to propose mechanisms by which these objects can manipulate their trajectories and do things that are quite fantastic.
And my personal point of view is that magnetism is probably the leading choice for a propulsion system, but it would have to be monopoles rather than dipoles.
A dipole simply spins like a compass needle.
And you don't want your flying saucer to simply flop over like a bug upside down.
You want it to hover.
And monopoles have never been seen.
You can take a magnet and smash it in half.
You get a North Pole and a South Pole.
Folks Show Finale 00:00:31
art bell
No matter how many times you smash it in half.
Doctor, we are running out of time.
I've got to leave an hour early.
I absolutely am going to have you back again soon.
There's nobody like Dr. Michio Kaku.
And so again, all I can do is thank you, my friend, and say we'll get together again soon.
michio kaku
Okay, my pleasure.
art bell
Good night.
unidentified
Okay.
art bell
There you go, folks.
What a show, huh?
I've got about three days of biz to take care of, and I'll be back Monday night, Tuesday morning.
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