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Aug. 19, 1998 - Art Bell

03:16:04

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Art Bell - NDE's - Dr. Jeff Long & Trisha McGill - Karl Grossman - Cassini Launch

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	The End.
	Music.
	From the high deserts and the great American southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning, as the case may
	be, across all these many, many time zones, stretching from the Hawaiian and Tahitian Islands, out west, eastward to
	the Caribbean, the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, good morning in St.
	Thomas, South into South America, north all the way to the pole, and worldwide on the internet, thanks to broadcast.com.
	This is Coast to Coast AM, and by the way, tonight we've got the, uh, the raw feed back up for those of you listening on the internet.
	And when I say raw feed, that means, uh, the things that are discussed or talked about or comments I make.
	During what would otherwise be the news and station break times you'll hear on the internet.
	It'll all come pouring forth in its most raw form.
	And so we've gone back to that.
	We've been kind of shifting around getting a receiver here and there and getting it done.
	But I thought that some would enjoy hearing the raw feed.
	Kind of like if you have satellite TV, getting raw feeds.
	You're allowed to hear anything.
	And that's exactly what I intend.
	All right, in the first hour, I have something just absolutely astounding to relate to you, and I am going to do that through two guests.
	And they are Jim Warren and Carl Grossman, who has a Master in Journalism.
	He's an investigative journalist.
	Jim Warren, uh... heads and organization in of durham
	north carolina uh... and will let him tell you about his organization
	and a call he received uh... shortly
	and i it's a bone chiller for sure so you better sit down and strap in
	now what you are about to hear i want to tell you about first of all that what
	you are about to hear we cannot confirm
	uh... we cannot uh...
	in any way uh...
	suggest that it is authentic but it could be
	It's a good thing.
	It could be.
	And so all we're doing tonight is relating the content and discussing the content of a phone call received by Jim Warren's organization, which we're going to hear about in a moment.
	In the next hour, I'm going to have two guests on.
	And they're going to discuss something that is every bit as volatile, I guess we'll put it that way, volatile, huh?
	Near-death experiences induced, I repeat, induced near-death experiences.
	Dr. Tricia McGill will be here, along with Dr. Long, who is an oncologist.
	And they're going to be talking about chemically... Actually, they're going to be talking about NDEs.
	Period.
	But a very, very controversial new subject, chemically induced NDEs, which were only at the rumor stage, you know, just a few days ago, and tonight we've got the lowdown for you on this, and we'll discuss NDEs generally.
	So that's kind of what's on tap.
	That's a lot to be on tap.
	We're going to have a very, very busy night tonight.
	I want to repeat again, what you are about to hear is in no way verified, nor do we have even a second source for what we are going to tell you.
	We are going to tell you this because I think it would be irresponsible not to tell you this, but I want to do that and be very, very careful to tell you that what you are about to hear may be totally Untrue.
	It is simply a warning, which I guess is a pretty good way to put it, that was received by my guest Jim Warren at the Waste Awareness and Reduction Network, or WARN if you will.
	Sounding pretty synchronistic already, huh?
	Waste Awareness and Reduction Network.
	They're in North Carolina.
	Here is Jim Warren, and also with us is a journalist, His master is in journalism and investigative journalist, Carl Grossman.
	Gentlemen, welcome.
	First, let me go to you, Jim, and ask you, what is WARN?
	Well, NC WARN, which we're mainly known by, is, as you said, Waste Awareness and Reduction Network.
	We're a grassroots environmental organization working on industrial and radioactive pollution issues around North Carolina.
	Again, as you mentioned, we don't have any way to verify this, what has happened.
	Before we even get to that, you, for example, in North Carolina, there has been a big problem with hysteria.
	I'm sure you're well aware of Fisteria with its effects on the toxic waste.
	Does Warren get into those kinds of areas?
	No, we're more involved in the chemical and radioactive pollution side of things, which we have enormous problems in North Carolina.
	one of our primary issues is challenging a seven state nuclear waste dump that the state
	is trying to license in central North Carolina.
	Okay, so you're doing that kind of work.
	You're located where, in Durham?
	In Durham, in the central part of the state.
	We work with communities trying to stop heavily polluting facilities.
	Okay, so we now understand what kind of organization you are.
	That's good, thank you.
	Now, you received a call on Warren's answering machine.
	I assume we've got an answering machine there for your organization.
	Right.
	And you got a message.
	Was it anonymous, the message we're about to hear?
	Yes.
	All right.
	It came in on Monday, actually.
	It came in on Monday.
	Now, I think at this point, so that we can get the discussion going, we're going to have Our second guest, if you would be so kind as to read us exactly, you have a transcript, I believe, an actual written transcript of what came in.
	Right.
	That is correct?
	Yep.
	Okay, Carl Grossman, you're an author, you're an investigative journalist, you have a master's in journalism.
	How did you, if you wouldn't mind just before you read this for us, how did you get involved in this?
	In other words, did Jim get this and humbly, as I would have done, freak out and call you for some sort of investigation?
	Yeah, exactly.
	And this has been an area, in fact, I was on the program with you, Art, just before the launch of the Cassini space probe with 72 pounds of plutonium back in October.
	That's right.
	Oh, by the way, Carl, before we move forward, since you mentioned that, Cassini is due Well, that's the irony.
	This is Monday when Jim called me, and what I was working on then, Monday, was work on August 18th, Tuesday, which is, well, now a day before yesterday, but essentially yesterday, depending on your time zone.
	That's exactly a year before the flyby.
	So as 1 August 18th of 1999, Cassini, with its 72.3 pounds of plutonium dioxide, is, uh, NASA isn't stopped.
	And there's a big effort now to try to stop NASA when people should join in, and my judgment isn't stopped.
	They're going to have this Cassini probe come hurtling back at the Earth for a gravity-assist maneuver.
	In other words, they're going to use Earth as a slingshot, gravity-wise, to launch Cassini toward what?
	Well, the final destination of Cassini is Saturn, and its moons, particularly Titan and the rings, it's supposed to arrive, if the slingshot works, in the year 2004.
	But for us, it would be our point of concern, our date of concern.
	If the slingshot is successful, then bye-bye Cassini.
	We won't have to worry about it again.
	The biggest is, but if it isn't successful, should it re-enter the atmosphere with 72 pounds of plutonium?
	Carl, what do you imagine will occur?
	It isn't even an imagination.
	In fact, what I was working on when Jim called was a new report that I just obtained.
	It's a safety evaluation report.
	done by the interagency nuclear safety review panel.
	This is a government panel. This is a report to the White House.
	Before the launch, July 1997, the launch was in October, and this was obtained, this document, by Dr. Earl Butin of
	UCLA, the radiology professor.
	Yes.
	And he forwarded it to me.
	Now, the whole issue here, folks, is if it screws up, to come very close to Earth to achieve the slingshot effect.
	Now, if they screw up and it comes too close and re-enters, then what happens?
	There's no heat shield.
	They admit in the environmental impact statement that the plutonium would come raining down.
	And in fact, much of it as respirable particles, which is just what you don't want with plutonium.
	It's been described as the most toxic substance known.
	The big danger is if it is in the form of dust.
	And a little particle gets into one's lung, it can cause lung cancer and here you have an enormous amount and a particularly toxic form of plutonium.
	Plutonium-238 is hotter, it's more radioactive than the plutonium, the committee with plutonium-239.
	The report by this Nuclear Safety Review Panel, I mean this is after NASA claimed there would be only It's supposed to come in at 496 miles high.
	It dips down into the 75 mile high atmosphere as it whips around the Earth at 42,000 miles an hour.
	It'll disintegrate, the plutonium will rain out, and here I'm just reading from, this is again an official nuclear regulatory, Interagency Nuclear Safety Review Panel report.
	Which says what?
	It is possible, using the Linear Non-Threshold Dose Hypothesis, to postulate up to several tens of thousands of latent cancer fatalities worldwide, if this flyby doesn't work.
	If the flyby doesn't work?
	The five agencies that sign or fund this, and again, it's to the White House.
	This is the Department of Defense, Lieutenant Colonel, Department of Energy, The EPA, the U.S.
	Nuclear Regulatory Commission, this is the same time this agency is talking about the possibility of tens of thousands of deaths, and NASA was saying only 2,300 or maybe even less.
	This particular report, which contradicts NASA's official line at that point, was signed off in addition to the other agencies by John W. Reiter, The serious damn stuff.
	In other words, tens of thousands could die.
	Now, aren't we fortunate that our probes, our space probes, like the ones that have gone to Mars and elsewhere, have never screwed up?
	And that spacecraft, which are launched, never blow up.
	Aren't we lucky?
	Because otherwise, think what we'd be risking.
	Tens of thousands dead.
	Actually, that's not precisely correct.
	Well, look, my tongue hurts where I bit it, you know.
	I was trying to lead you into this.
	Obviously, our probes do fail.
	They do go spinning out of control.
	All kinds of terrible crap happens.
	And should something spin out of control in a maneuver and re-enter the atmosphere, we're in deep doo-doo.
	We don't have plutonium on these things.
	I mean, if this Cassini was powered work, and it could have been, in fact.
	Plutonium is just there to generate a very modest amount of electricity to run instruments.
	But 200 watts?
	Watts.
	If it had solar panels, worse comes to worse, it hit the atmosphere, debris would rain down, but not plutonium.
	And the issue is injecting into the equation lethal nuclear poisons, and, I mean, rockets are going to blow up on launch, what goes up, I
	mean, the set of years ago will come down often. The issue here is not that accidents won't
	happen, they will happen, because you throw plutonium into the equation and you're
	not just going to lose a lot of money and lose a lot of time, you're going to lose a lot of
	people.
	Yes, indeed, and of course they say, when I say they, NASA says that they have tested
	all of this to the nth degree and that the containment for the plutonium is impervious
	to anything.
	Now, that of course is an issue.
	They suggest it would come down whole intact, there would be no plutonium disbursement.
	Do you argue with that?
	Yeah, well, that's what they say in their press releases and stuff, that it's like bank But if you go to the documentation, and my specialty is investigative reporting, I'm not into press releases.
	I hear you.
	And here I'm reading actually from the environmental impact statement, the official quote, final environmental impact statement for the Cassini mission.
	Right.
	And I'm just reading from it.
	It's page 4-51.
	Fuel, particle, and vapor.
	For all re-entry cases studied, 32-34% of the plutonium fuel What?
	No, wait a minute, wait a minute.
	That's a long way from me.
	It's completely encased and nothing would get loose.
	It would come down intact.
	You're reading from the environmental impact statement.
	And then even more important, if the stuff stayed together as marble-sized pellets that
	people couldn't breathe in, okay, that wouldn't be a serious problem at all.
	It would be a problem, but not a kind of problem.
	And here, the gist goes on.
	The fraction of fuel particles released during re-entry estimated to be reduced to vapor or respirable particles less than 10 microns ranges from 66% for shallow re-entries to about 20% for steep 90 degree re-entries.
	So what they're saying is of the 72 pounds of plutonium-238 On Cassini, they're estimating that about 30 pounds would be released, and up to 30 pounds, anywhere between 20 and 66 percent, would be released as dust.
	If that slowly rained down, I speak of it raining down over months and years, and people will breathe in this stuff, I've, meanwhile, run this, uh, this page through, uh, independent scientists, and they've said, you know, it isn't going to be 32 to 34 percent, and 20 to 66 percent as dust.
	If this thing hits the atmosphere on October 18th, 1999, coming in at 42,000 miles an hour, that is thicker than the speed of a, of a bullet, uh, no heat shield, uh, it's going to be 100 percent belief.
	Uh, I must say that the only thing I'm, uh, The only defense NASA has isn't that a plutonium is not going to get out.
	You get into the documentation, you see that it will get out.
	The only defense NASA has, and this actually is the issue, brings us back to the issue we were talking about this evening primarily, but it covers this issue as well as the likelihood, the probability.
	When I was on your show earlier, before the launch, NASA was not only claiming You know, we're coming to the bottom of the hour here.
	Dr. Michio Kaku agrees with you completely on these dangers.
	Gentlemen, hold on.
	We'll be right back.
	You haven't even heard the scary part yet.
	I'm going to get accident.
	As you know, we're coming to the bottom of the hour here.
	Dr. Michio Kaku agrees with you completely on these dangerous...
	Gentlemen, hold on. We'll be right back.
	You haven't even heard the scary part yet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	This is Coast to Coast AM from the Kingdom of Nye.
	I'll tell you something, we live in one screwed up world.
	Missions that could come back to Earth to haunt us, good word actually, and dump 100% of their carried plutonium, 72 pounds, into the atmosphere.
	In a way that would keep it raining down.
	One little tiny, tiny bit of plutonium inhaled into your lungs and you have been executed.
	You're walking dead.
	That's it.
	It'll be about a year and Cassini's gonna come roaring back.
	But you haven't even heard what may potentially be the bad news yet.
	Stay right where you are.
	Once again, I want to say what you have just heard regarding Cassini and plutonium is completely accurate.
	Completely accurate, and there's no controversy about it at all.
	What you are about to hear, there's going to be plenty of controversy about, and it may not be accurate at all.
	We don't warrant in any way that what we are going to allow you to hear is accurate information, but because of the nature of it, I
	felt that it really needed to get on the air. So again, bear in mind there may be no
	basis to what you're about to hear, and I hope there isn't at all. But having said
	that, Jim from Warren, Jim Warren rather, from Waste Awareness and Reduction Network.
	You got a phone call on your answering machine.
	When did it come in, please?
	On Monday afternoon.
	Monday afternoon, huh?
	And I take it, as I said a little while ago, you kind of freaked out and your first contact was Carl Grossman?
	Yeah, I got to Carl Grossman through someone else.
	I knew of Carl's work in writing about and investigating the Cassini.
	All right.
	It's my position, as you know, that since it came on the answering machine, as far as I'm concerned, you ought to just play it on the air, but you don't want to do that, which is fine.
	I'll take it as I can get it.
	You made a transcript of the phone call received on the answering machine, and that transcript is in Carl Grossman's hands now, right, Carl?
	yeah and i think it is concerned about buying it the the the message that he did he fears that
	at the point of of this person would be heard uh...
	some people might be able to identify the individual who could get to him
	then i thought what let's talk about that after we hear what's been a message
	and then we'll talk about whether or not it should be a real
	okay it was a little bit like a little bit of justice I was mentioning the word probability.
	NASA, when we last spoke, was saying, well, the launch will be fine because there's Titan IV rockets, very reliable.
	Well, it turned out that there was a blow-up on launch in 1993 of a Titan rocket just like Titan IV, just the kind of thing that lifted the Cassini probe and its plutonium.
	And then, just a couple of weeks ago now, on August 12th, A second launch explosion.
	25 launches of Titan IVs.
	Two launch explosions.
	Spectacular ones.
	As a matter of fact, this last one was a damn expensive one.
	It had a secret military satellite on it.
	That's all we've been able to discern so far.
	Some kind of secret satellite.
	The Titan IV went kaboom.
	Roughly when?
	7.30 in the morning was the launch.
	This is October 12th.
	The satellite is August 12th, a week ago, at 1.3 billion dollars, and again, it makes the chances of a Titan 4, I mean, you're talking about real odds, not what the numbers NASA wants to make up, at 1 in 12, it shows the folks who are upset about it, including myself, concerned about the Cassini launch being dangerous were quite right.
	Well, it sure as hell did blow up, we all know it was very expensive, some serious kind Defense satellite.
	As a matter of fact, I think the Secretary of Defense came out and made a statement that as a result of the loss of the satellite, the explosion of the Titan, that U.S.
	national security would not be compromised.
	Why ever in the world he said that, I don't know.
	It makes one wonder why you've got to launch something so expensive if it isn't going to make any difference to our national security if it isn't there.
	However, having said that, Let's have you read, if you wouldn't mind, the text of this answering machine message.
	Okay.
	The guy begins, Hi, I'm calling in regards to the accident on Wednesday involving the Vortex classified satellite being launched by the Titan.
	I'll make this very brief.
	I'm a project engineer and I think the public needs to know There was an RTG power device that's called a Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator.
	It's one of these devices like a casino with plutonium aboard.
	When the Air Force issued the Destruct Command after the initial explosion, they did so to reduce the possibility of the public determining that there was indeed a plutonium fuel cell.
	They reduced everything to particulate matter.
	When they issued the destruct sequence, which means that the 20 pounds of plutonium went airborne at 20,000 feet off the coast of Florida on Wednesday during a failed Titan launch of the Vortex, that plutonium has now passed over the majority of the East Coast.
	This is the single largest nuclear accident in the history of the United States.
	Its risks for public safety are unprecedented.
	Those aren't major media sources that are reporting this.
	They're reporting the accident, but they're not including the critical piece of information the public needs to be aware of, and that is, there was an RTT power device and the Air Force chose to detonate it after the initial explosion, thus ensuring the plutonium went to particulate and was dispersed atmospherically across the East Coast.
	I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but like I say, I'm a project engineer.
	We have all been affected by this and I hope that you or somebody in your organization can help get the word out.
	Please get out on the internet, contact for our newspapers, contact everybody you can because this has to get out.
	There are three more Vortex launches scheduled.
	Thank you very much.
	And that was the entire message?
	That's the message.
	Now, I can only imagine, I can only imagine, uh, Jim, when you receive this, You probably totally freaked out for one thing you're on the East Coast.
	Well, I wouldn't quite describe the response quite that way, but it was very disturbing and immediately wondered, of course, was it true?
	Was it some sort of hoax?
	All right, let me ask you this.
	For the audience, since we're not hearing the tape, can you characterize the man's demeanor Uh, voice.
	Um, can you characterize for us whether he sounded credible?
	He sounded credible.
	He sounded credible.
	And, um... All right, Carl, have you heard the tape?
	Heard the tape, and this is not a 14-year-old kid or some crazy... It sounds like a serious, uh... Legitimate caller?
	Yeah, it's... I mean, I've been in this field for a long time.
	It sounded like the kind of calls I've gotten from insider whistleblowers through the years.
	Well, I can certainly imagine that such call would be made to an organization like Waste Awareness and Reduction Network.
	But I mean, good God, what we're talking about here is the release of, it would have been plutonium, correct?
	Yeah.
	Dispersed at 20,000 feet of the plutonium, it says in here, in the In this transcript went to airborne at 20,000 feet off the East Coast now.
	If that had occurred, Carl, I take it you've done some looking into this in some way or another.
	Wouldn't Geiger counters be going nuts?
	Wouldn't people have been warned?
	Wouldn't all kinds of things be occurring depending on what the winds were?
	Do we know what the conditions were?
	Where this stuff might have gone?
	Usually there's an onshore breeze, not all the time, but usually.
	So, what have you found out, Carl?
	Well, I've been on this ever since I heard the tape trying to see if... This is raw information.
	The question is whether it's going to be corroborated.
	It's also a question of whether there are agencies within our government straight enough, independent enough, honest enough to tell us the truth.
	I think the first thing that has to be established, and I've been trying to establish it, is what's called a footprint in this type of situation.
	The meteorological conditions at that time, on August 12th, which would determine where, if indeed there was a plutonium RTT, where the plutonium fell out.
	as to determining then how it fell out.
	I mean, whether in fact the RTG, if it wasn't RTG, was broken up
	and the plutonium ended up as respirable particles of vapor and where it might've landed.
	I mean- What were the weather conditions?
	The weather conditions were good at 7.30 in the morning.
	So we're not talking onshore breezes that generally build up in the afternoon.
	So it might've gone into the ocean?
	It could've gone to the Bahamas or 20,000 feet.
	It's kind of, I mean, it is, I was just on a jet coming back from Europe,
	but 37,000 to 25,000 feet.
	It isn't that high, but it's high enough.
	This stuff is heavy metal.
	It's protonated dioxide.
	It's heavy metal.
	But still, it's taken by the winds, and it can fall out with the rain, or it can fall out just naturally.
	The big problem on this issue, I mean, I've spoken to so many people, including, for example, speaking of whistleblowers, Alan Cohen.
	He, for many years, 30 years, Was a NASA career official, was their emergency operations officer for a number of nuclear launches at the Cape.
	He's one of the people I've spoken to on this issue and he doesn't know, but he just thinks that there are circumstances here in terms of the actions being taken by the government.
	It's a huge search at this point that's underway for debris from this thing.
	They are searching now?
	it's supposed to be the biggest operation, search operation since the Challenger accident.
	What would, does anybody know what would happen if the plutonium, let's say the best case happened and it never reached east
	coast shores, if it fell into the water and was dispersed, what would the,
	does anybody have any idea what the effect would be?
	That's relatively, much would be the word.
	I'm serious.
	I did a book on this called The Wrong Stuff last year, and in the book I spent several pages looking through this, mostly about Cassini, and the other space... I mean, speaking of plutonium spaceships, or those we know and those We know what will happen in the future.
	It turns out that NASA is planning anywhere from 8 to 13 additional plutonium shots in coming years.
	So, I mean, this is a big, ongoing situation.
	Now, unless we can stop it again, I think we must.
	All right.
	Well, now, this was a military-class 5 satellite that would have been in Earth orbit.
	Right.
	Making the probability of an RTG power device not impossible, certainly, but Less likely.
	You would think they'd be less likely to put an RTG power device in a satellite that goes around and around.
	But, listen, never underestimate the idiots.
	They've done a lot.
	They'll do more.
	So it could be.
	This is one of those things that could be.
	Now, after having read that message, this is such a godforsakenly important thing, should it be true, that I said, look, there's two ways of looking at this.
	I said, you ought to play the message on the air so people can hear it.
	And apparently, I don't know how you feel about that, Carl.
	I'll ask in a moment.
	But I know that Jim didn't want to do it.
	And I said, look, there's two ways of looking at it.
	One, if it's true, it's so important that it's one of those things that people ought to hear.
	I mean, it would affect millions and millions of people.
	And to hell with one man's career.
	On the other hand, if it's a hoax, Then the voice of the hoaxer ought to be heard and, if possible, identified.
	Now that, of course, is the position of a guy who wants to broadcast whatever information he can, and why would either one of you take a position not to play that part?
	Let me address that real briefly, as some of us have talked earlier.
	Our feeling is, at this point, as you say, it's a very important issue.
	But the importance of the issue does not rest in this man's voice.
	The other thing, if it were true, or if this person believes it to be true, the last thing in the world that people that want to find out the truth would want to do is to broadcast the man's voice and then have him, or potentially others who may come forward, I certainly agree that it would be a horror for him to be outed, so to speak, because somebody recognized his voice.
	internet or anywhere else and it would seem to be imprudent in that respect.
	I certainly agree that it would be a horror for him to be outed, so to speak, because
	somebody recognized his voice.
	On the other hand, this is, it's also a horror should millions of people be in mortal danger.
	I agree, but I just don't understand why, this man's voice is not the story itself.
	Alright, Carl Grossman, and Carl, you're going to follow up and keep investigating.
	I don't know what paths you're going to take to try to find out if it's true.
	It's going to take more than little me, and maybe your listeners can help.
	Okay.
	I think the key here, as you were mentioning before, is what now have been, if there was an article, if there was plutonium.
	uh...
	but now i think the consequences in terms of radiation and what we need to
	do i think i i i i think that i hope the air force is saying no this one's saying no
	and so forth uh... but what we need are people to call the congresspeople
	tomorrow morning and i mean this is obviously a national security issue but
	i think the public health and welfare
	have to override in this type of situation well y'all i agree if there was an RTG
	and this guy again claims to be a project manager Project Engineer.
	The U.S.
	Department of Energy.
	I mean, accidents happen.
	This isn't a sky is falling kind of thing, this nukes in space issue.
	Out of the 27 space nuclear shots the U.S.
	done, there have been three accidents, including a 1964 military satellite with an RTG aboard.
	The SNAP-9A came tumbling down into the atmosphere, disintegrated, plutonium was spread all over
	the planet. In my book, The Rockstar Fight, I cite a report of a grouping of European
	radiation agencies talking about how by 1970, debris, radioactive debris from the SNAP-9A
	was found at all latitudes on all continents. The Soviets, now Russia, they've done now
	41 of these states that we have shot.
	Six accidents.
	Alright, gentlemen, our hour is up.
	Look, is there, uh, you would like them to contact their congressmen and demand to know what was on this, uh, whether there was an RTG on this, uh, uh, uh, Titan.
	More than that, to get the U.S.
	Department of Energy, which has the equipment, to get at them, we can trust them, give us readings, If the government is not going to do it, universities, with physics departments, with the proper equipment, if more people can be deployed, we've got to find out.
	All right, look, my fax machine and the conduit to me is open, so if there's anybody checking radiation levels and we get any information, I'll pass it on.
	If you get any more information, you guys call me.
	We'll go from there, all right?
	Right.
	All right, thank you all, and good night, gentlemen, and thank you very much for coming on.
	That's it.
	Now you've heard it.
	It may be completely groundless, but it sort of sounded like it might be something to it.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Well this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm here in the middle of the night.
	Deep in the country, I'm saying.
	Feel the air beneath, everything.
	Oh, I'm gonna dance with you today.
	My feelings come to you when you listen to me.
	There ain't nothing you can't do today.
	Feeling good, feeling fine.
	From the Kingdom of Nye, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	From east of the Rockies, call Art at 1-800-825-5033.
	West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, at 1-800-618-8255.
	First time callers may reach Art at area code 702-727-1222.
	Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico at 1-800-618-8255.
	First-time callers may reach our area code 702-727-1222.
	Good morning.
	Anybody out there think of any subject that is really more important to us inside
	than whether we live after we die, whether we continue to exist,
	whether we come back as something else or somebody else, or whether it's just lights out, good night, worms crawl in
	and worms crawl out.
	Ha ha ha.
	So here.
	It's, I suppose, life's biggest question.
	And tonight we're going to move toward a very controversial way of answering it.
	I have two guests coming up that were both inducted at the last minute.
	Both of them agreeing to come on virtually at the last minute earlier today.
	Both of them well qualified to be discussing what they are discussing.
	So, I will introduce them to you in a moment.
	You have heard the rumors of a drug which induces a near-death experience.
	I think I talked about that not long ago.
	And I told you there was a rumor out there, running hard, that such a drug existed.
	Well, tonight we are going to talk about, generally, about NDEs.
	And we are going to specifically touch on something which we are going to call Drug X.
	Because there is apparently such a drug.
	So I'll tell you about my guests and all of this in just a moment.
	Let's take care of a little bit of business.
	Good morning.
	It should be a fascinating morning.
	Strap in.
	All right, here they come.
	My guests are Dr. Tricia McGill, who is a clinical psychologist.
	She also holds a PhD in hypnotherapy.
	She has in the past posted her own talk show regarding psychology issues.
	We are as well joined by Dr. Jeff Long.
	He is a radiation oncologist.
	I don't know what that is.
	He'll have to tell us.
	I guess he treats cancer patients with radiation therapy and both practice in Las Vegas.
	Both have had a long-term Interest in the near-death experience, NDE, and we are going to be touching on some pretty controversial things this evening.
	So, as I said, strapping both of you.
	Welcome.
	Let's see if we all can hear each other.
	Dr. McGill?
	Yes, I'm here, Art.
	Thank you.
	Dr. Long?
	I'm here, Art.
	Okay.
	Let us begin by, I think either one or both of you Telling us, and I've heard from many people, what you believe a near-death experience is.
	Okay, Art, I might take over there.
	Okay.
	Basically, we are in the process of putting up a website.
	It's not quite ready yet.
	You mean an NDE is a website?
	An N-D-E-R-F.
	We're going to call it Enderf.
	And it should be up by next week, but right now we are still in the process of getting it up.
	Okay, well, so you don't have it up, so what is an NDE?
	Okay, NDE, of course, is a term that was coined by Dr. Raymond Moody, who was basically the pioneer in all of this, who brought this to the attention of the world in his book, Life After Life.
	Are you working with Dr. Moody?
	Yes, I am working with him.
	I'm going to be doing a workshop connected with the We came up with this interview, Jeff and I, between us.
	in the Bigelow Consciousness Chair.
	Yes, I think he is the second.
	Over at UNLV, yes.
	I believe he is the second chair and I'm going to be interviewing him soon.
	Oh, wonderful.
	Yes, in fact he asked me to tell you that he wants to talk to you.
	There you are.
	All right.
	Anyway, we came up with this interview, Jeff and I, between us.
	The near-death experience, or NDE, may be defined as a lucid experience associated with
	perceived consciousness apart from the body occurring at the time of actual or threatened
	imminent death.
	And this definition, of course, is subject to being... Yeah, we're going to tug at it as the night goes on.
	We're going to tug at that definition, but it is a classic definition.
	In other words, frequently you're either faced with immediate death or you clinically die.
	You actually clinically die.
	Many people have been actually clinically declared dead.
	By their doctors for over a period of an hour or more.
	Yes.
	You know the old three to five minute rule doesn't really apply.
	By the way, for either one of you, why is that?
	Why isn't there a hard and fast medical rule about when you're dead?
	I mean really dead.
	Apparently the brain continues to function even if everything else stops, which is in itself kind of a scary thought.
	Let me have Dr. Jeff The concept of what constitutes death has changed over the past several decades in medicine.
	For the longest time it was considered to be the cessation of the heart and breathing.
	That really isn't an adequate definition because there can still be active brain function.
	in the presence of cessation of heart and breathing.
	Doctor, does that mean that you are in any sense of the definition conscious?
	Usually people that have a cessation of heart and breathing are unconscious.
	The modern concept of death includes an irreversible cessation of brain activity
	and that is the current modern accepted definition of death.
	And when might that come after the old heart stops pumping?
	Apparently not just three to five minutes.
	Brain function might continue recorded to be recorded for how long?
	You know that's interesting.
	As you've mentioned, in years gone by it was thought that after three to five minutes of
	no heart function and no breathing that there would be irreversible damage to the brain.
	That's really not true.
	For example, individuals have drowned in icy waters and especially children can be pulled
	out of ice water after they've stopped breathing and their heart stopped for 30 or 40 minutes
	and yet their brain function returns and they can return to life.
	So it's a much more complex issue than we thought before.
	What about room temperature?
	Let's say that you're working on a patient...
	You've got a patient in an operating room and the heart ceases functioning and you're monitoring brainwave activity.
	Would you normally expect to see a cessation of measurable activity in three to five minutes at room temperature?
	Somewhere around three to five minutes.
	You're talking about some significant damage.
	You get out five to ten or more minutes and you're probably going to have some irreversible cessation of brain function, i.e.
	our current concept of clinical brain death.
	And yet, there are people, like Danion Brinkley, a friend of mine, and others, who have been dead at room temperatures, or even above, because he was struck by lightning.
	He was out for 27 minutes, as I recall.
	You've got it.
	27 minutes is a lot longer than the 3-5 minute rule.
	That's exactly my point.
	Now, Danion is a pretty weird fellow, but He is still articulate and he seems to be with us in a strange fashion perhaps, but he's with us.
	So the three to five minute rule, even at room temperature, remember this guy was on fire to this day, he has no body hair, it all burned off.
	He's still alive, folks.
	You know, rules are made to be broken, and this is a classic example.
	The body is very resilient.
	Certainly there are other people like Mr. Brinkley and a variety of others that have had a cessation of breathing and heart function for far longer than we would have normally conceived as possible.
	The body is very mysterious in its ability to recoup.
	You're a straight-on doctor.
	Do you treat cancer patients with radiation?
	Is that what you do, Dr. Long?
	Yes.
	My specialty is radiation oncology, as you mentioned earlier, and that's the use of radiation to treat cancer.
	So you're dealing all the time with people that They're contemplating their own mortality and in many cases will die, correct?
	Absolutely.
	Cancer by its very definition is a life-threatening illness and that is the thing that all the patients that I treat are wrestling with to a greater or lesser extent.
	We cure an awful lot of people with radiation therapy these days but some we can't and certainly that is very much on the mind of essentially all the patients that we treat.
	Just as a matter of interest, I guess there's no hard, fast rule you can give, but of the people that you treat, Doctor, what percentage get better for five years or something else compared to those who don't make it?
	Is there a rough percentage?
	It's a little hard to say.
	For people to have cancer that's metastasized, radiation therapy is highly effective in relieving symptoms.
	These people may not be curable, but 90% or better can have those symptoms relieved, and their quality of life can improve dramatically.
	The other group of patients we treat, about the other half of the group of patients, are those that we treat with the hopes of curing.
	It's highly dependent on what type of cancer they have and how advanced it is.
	There are a large number of cancers that we have an excellent chance of curing with radiation therapy, possibly in combination with surgery or chemotherapy.
	That's a rough road, isn't it, for a patient?
	It's patients that have cancer go through a lot.
	It's very, very difficult on them.
	All of us that deal with cancer patients have to be very sensitive to that.
	We deal with that every day.
	Do you, either one of you, deal with patients in the terminal stage of their illness frequently?
	In other words, at the very last?
	Well, in my case, being a psychologist, I don't deal with terminally ill patients as a general rule.
	However, I am devoting my entire practice, I'm turning it over strictly to grief counseling and also preparing people who are terminally ill to prepare for their own death and to accept it not with fear and panic and dread, but to look at it with a whole new understanding that they may be going on to a much better existence without the pain and suffering that they... Now therein lies the 64 billion dollar with inflation question.
	Right.
	Is there, in your opinions collectively or individually, is there A continuation of life.
	Is there substantial evidence that some sort of existence, spiritually, with some sort of consciousness that we can understand, would continue?
	Well, that's the big question, like you said.
	So what do you tell the people who are dying?
	We have to say that we're biased, based on not just faith alone.
	But on a lot of what we can consider to be fairly reliable research.
	I've talked to hundreds of patients, I mean hundreds of people, excuse me.
	Stay good and close to your phone, doctor.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	I've talked to a lot of people who have been actually concerned about this very question.
	Of course.
	And I tell them, you know, that I'm biased based on my observations, my interviews with people, all the books that I've read.
	Everything I can get my hands on for the last umpteen years I have been preparing to try to make a conclusion based on everything that I've gathered and I have to say I'm biased.
	Alright, you said that.
	I'm not totally being, you know... Alright, let's try it this way doctor.
	I think there's lots of evidence for that.
	Let's say I'm dying.
	Okay.
	And I want to know if you as a psychiatrist and as a medical person believe that there is anything or
	am I just as it lights out time for me, you'll say you're biased and then what?
	And then I'll say I believe that based on all this information and hundreds and hundreds
	of accounts that have similar what I would call patterns that keep coming up, I've identified
	about 30 of them actually.
	Yes.
	And based on that and some really incredible things that people can come back with from their experience, this is the key thing.
	You see a lot of people say, oh you know this is the brain that's starving of oxygen.
	That's right.
	Or these are chemicals released to help ease your trauma.
	That's right.
	But really there's been, and I have had too just recently, I came back with what I call verifiable evidence that they could not have gotten.
	Unless they were separate from their body.
	Okay.
	Explain those please.
	Okay.
	That's very important.
	Okay.
	Um, okay, there's so many I don't know where to start, but let me just say that... Take your best examples.
	Okay.
	There was a lady, uh, who was pronounced dead in a hospital, who floated out of her room, floated out of the hospital, spotted a tennis shoe on a ledge, and then floated back in her room She saw what was going on with her body in the doctor's, went out into the hall and listened to conversation that her brother-in-law was having about, you know, well I guess I'm going to have to bury my sister-in-law because she kicked the bucket.
	She's getting ready to kick the bucket in those terms.
	And this was occurring while she was... While she was supposedly near or almost dead.
	In other words, she was, well, let's put it this way.
	I'm not sure she was declared dead at that point, but she was totally unconscious.
	Totally unconscious.
	She drifted out like on a fifth floor, saw the tennis shoes, drifted back in the hallway, picked up a conversation.
	Then she decided she wanted to visit her sisters.
	Yes.
	So in totally different states, mind you.
	Yes.
	She went to see both of her sisters and could tell what they were wearing, what they were doing, what they were saying, who they were with.
	You're telling me then she came back and when she was revived, I take it she was revived reasonably and came back to us somehow, right?
	And she related all of this about the tennis shoe, about the conversation, about what her sisters were wearing.
	The one that couldn't find her car keys and was looking all over the house.
	I hear you.
	Who verified all of this?
	The relatives involved and an impartial doctor.
	I think her name was Kim Clark Sharp.
	I know her.
	Dr. Sharp was actually the one that was in charge of this woman.
	I think her name was... I'm not sure.
	It's not important.
	It's not important.
	The doctor actually heard all of this and because she'd heard it so many times before her curiosity was piqued so she crawled out on the ledge to see if there was really in fact a tennis shoe there with the right color and the right shape and everything was exactly the way the woman described it.
	There's no way this woman could have seen that or known about that tennis shoe because somebody had probably dropped it from the roof.
	Now these are the kinds of things that I I really take, you know, very seriously.
	I take them very seriously as well.
	And I've had two recent NDEs that I think are incredible, and I don't know that we have time for me.
	Oh, yes, we do.
	Well, maybe not before the bottom of the hour, but radio's fat on time.
	Listen, we've got lots of time.
	I want to explore this whole idea of having you on here.
	Okay, fine.
	Dr. Long, have you also, since you're interested in this particular field, Have you also had any first-hand experience with this sort of thing?
	Oh, absolutely.
	I've talked to people.
	In fact, over 15 years ago I talked to my first NDE experiencer before it was well-known in the press or well-described in a variety of books.
	This person was very baffled.
	Very consistent with what Dr. Tricia was describing, this individual coded, means complete cessation of breathing and heart, on an operating room table, experienced an out-of-body experience where she perceived that she floated up to the top of the operating room, observed people working on her frantically down below, floated out to the nurse's station, very clearly heard the nurses talking in the nursing station of the inpatient unit where she was at at the hospital, Very clearly perceiving what all they were talking about, what the conversation was.
	I went through the classic NDE experience, which I hope we have a chance to discuss a little bit further later on in your talk.
	Oh, believe me, we will.
	Excellent, excellent.
	And ultimately was resuscitated.
	Now, when she described her experience to the nurses and told them in great detail after she'd been revived about exactly what they were talking about, they were very frightened and very concerned.
	Clearly, she was absolutely accurate in what she was describing.
	What's interesting is that this experience as well as the one Trisha is describing are not rare or isolated events.
	We keep seeing this time and time and time again where people have near-death experiences
	and receive some information that is only explicable by their being consciously apart
	from their body and able to perceive, see and hear things that are occurring remote
	from where their physical body is.
	It's not at all unusual.
	All right, doctor.
	We're at the bottom of the hour break.
	A quick answer.
	Can either one of you think of any more important question for mortal man to answer than whether
	this is it or there is more?
	Actually, that's probably the oldest question known to mankind and one of the most basic
	to all cultures, religions and every...
	All right, there you are.
	Alright, so the answer is yes, it is the most important.
	We'll be right back.
	Oh no...
	Some of the best lines around are in music.
	I love that line.
	Some of the best lines around are in music.
	Amazing, isn't it?
	All right, I've got two guests.
	One is a very special guest.
	He's a very special guest.
	One is Dr. Tricia McGill.
	She's a clinical psychologist.
	And the other is Dr. Jed Long.
	He's a radiation oncologist.
	The subject is near-death experiences, what they are.
	And ahead, and not very far ahead, we are going to touch on something that we probably ought not be touching on.
	It's a drug.
	We're going to call it Drug X. Drug X is said to produce a near-death experience or may produce an NDE.
	As you listen to Dr. Tricia McGill, listen very carefully because Dr. McGill intends to experiment with this drug personally.
	Listen, updating you on a story we tracked last night in Wichita, Kansas.
	Everything we told you last night unfolded as we told you Indeed, a building was evacuated.
	Indeed, there was a white powdery substance said to be anthrax.
	Indeed, 25 people were considered to have been directly exposed.
	The good news today is that the white powdery substance was not, as stated, anthrax, but something else.
	So, it was It was like a, I don't know, probably more than a false bomb trap because there was actually a substance there.
	But thankfully, it was not anthrax.
	Now, I do want to note here that the development of this story was extremely muted.
	And obviously there has been a decision at some level To keep this kind of thing under wraps as much as possible, and so if something should occur, don't expect to hear it unless you hear it here.
	Everything else we reported to you occurred exactly as reported, but unfortunately, to update you, it was not, repeat, was not anthrax.
	All right, back now to Dr. Tricia McGill and Dr. Jeff Long.
	Welcome back, both of you.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Okay.
	I guess, Tricia, for now, if you would, you had a couple of other really prime examples.
	You gave me one wonderful example of an NDE where there appears to be absolute proof that the person really was where they said they were.
	One other kind of example like that do you have?
	Well, Dr. Ritchie, who was the psychiatrist that first alerted Dr. Moody to the fact that there was such a phenomenon, actually went to a place he'd never been before while he was out of the body.
	Now, when he was revived, he knew exactly what this place looked like, down to every last detail, and he went there and confirmed it.
	Now, this man would not lie about these kinds of things.
	He's a very credible individual.
	So that's another example.
	All right.
	Any others you want to toss out or shall we describe the experience itself?
	Well, actually there's two that I've just gotten in in the last week.
	In fact, I want to let every person who's listening to this, if they would like to contribute to our growing pile of NDEs, which we are studying.
	In other words, if somebody out there has had an NDE and they want to contribute, how do they do it?
	Okay.
	Since we don't have our website up, they can write to us at N-D-E-R-F N-D-E-R-F N-D-E-R-F N-D-E-R-F N-D-E-R-F N-D-E-R-F N-D-E-R-F P.O.
	postal address, no slower, M-D-E-R-F, E-R-F, yes, P.O. Box 36543, Las Vegas, Nevada, 89133.
	Alright, I'll repeat that for everybody.
	You've got your pencils out there, folks.
	It's N-D-E-R-F P.O.
	Box 36543 Las Vegas, Nevada 89133.
	Alright, we've got that.
	So if they have one they want to share, you would be happy for them to do that.
	Now, you say you've got two recent ones.
	Anything interesting in either one of those?
	Oh yes, I do have two interesting ones, but Jeff motioned to me that he'd like to tell you about something.
	NDERF stands for the non-profit organization that we founded that we're going to be featuring on the website.
	That stands for the Near Death Experience Research Foundation.
	I thought I'd explain that since we've used that abbreviation previously.
	All right.
	Okay, thanks.
	All right, let me just tell you about this one that I got last week that's quite incredible.
	It's a little gory, so I will try not to... No, just tell us the way it is, that's all right.
	I'll tell you the way it is.
	This audience can handle it.
	This was a young lady, I'm going to call her Mary, to protect her privacy.
	When she was a young girl, she was admitted to the hospital with severe complications following a failed attempted abortion, which she had done in her apartment bathroom.
	Oh boy.
	Yeah, being raised Catholic, she didn't want to try to Have anybody help her so she tried to do it herself and it didn't work and instead she ended up nearly bleeding to death.
	Hemorrhaging, yeah.
	Yeah, she hemorrhaged quite badly, lost a lot of blood.
	She did call the ambulance and then she passed out.
	She was taken into the emergency room and people started doing a lot of things, you know, the typical emergency room type procedures trying to save her life.
	She remembered popping out of her body and floating above her body, watching everybody below, hectically and frantically trying to save her life.
	At two times during this experience, the doctors had said, well, we lost her and we lost the baby.
	Right.
	She was about three or four months along at that point.
	I think four months.
	Right.
	Anyway, she floated out of her body.
	She tapped through a ceiling fan.
	A ceiling fan?
	A ceiling fan and then the ceiling.
	When she was passing the ceiling fan, for some reason she noticed a bright red warning sticker on the back of the ceiling fan.
	But anyway, this was just sort of a weird thing.
	No, that's an interesting point.
	Yes, it's a minor detail, but listen, it's important because it has a corroborating effect.
	It's not a minor detail.
	Anyway, she left her body.
	Instantly she saw a tunnel.
	Oh, by the way, Jeff pointed out something to me.
	The sticker that was on the ceiling fan was not visible from the floor.
	It was only visible from the ceiling.
	Figures.
	Okay?
	So she passed through the ceiling and she saw a tunnel.
	She remembered popping out of her body.
	That's kind of something that I hear fairly often, a popping sound.
	She passed through the ceiling into the tunnel.
	She felt the presence of her grandfather but never heard anything or never saw anything, but she felt his loving presence guiding her through this.
	She came out into the light and she felt immediately happy, you know, ecstatic.
	Words are hard to describe it, but she felt really, really very peaceful and very loved.
	There was this overwhelming, unconditional love.
	Well, she thought she killed herself and she thought she probably also, of course, murdered her unborn child.
	So she was feeling a little bit apprehensive because she didn't know how all this was going to be accepted.
	She kind of felt she had died and that there was going to be some consequences to this behavior.
	Yes, of course.
	But anyway, while she was there she saw a being of pure light and he basically had her do kind of a past life review situation.
	And she was feeling pretty guilty about some things she had done, even though she was a good Catholic girl for most of her life.
	But nevertheless, she was feeling a lot of guilt at times.
	So, to me, this was sort of her own personal hell that she went through, self-punishment.
	Well, then he asked her telepathically, of course.
	He?
	He or the entity, the being of pure life.
	Yes.
	I'm sorry, did I leave that out?
	Anyway, she came out of the tunnel and saw the being of light.
	The being of light basically said to her telepathically, do you want to stay or go back?
	Well, she immediately fell on her knees in a begging position and said, I want to stay.
	Well, then he said, watch this.
	And then there formed a bubble.
	Inside the bubble, There was a little baby nursing at a woman's breast and she couldn't tell who the woman was because the head was down.
	Yes.
	But then after the nursing part she saw this little baby who was sitting up and then it was taking its first steps and then the little baby became a full blown, you know, little boy.
	Yes.
	Toddler and was running around playing and as he was doing all these things she was getting this strange sensation about this child, kind of a bonding effect.
	Oh, a bonding effect.
	A bonding, a sort of an emotional bond.
	Then the child became a teenager and then a young adult and then a full grown man.
	She was looking at this person and she was not sure who this person was, but she was curious and she said, Who's that?
	And the being of light said, That's your son, Michael.
	Well, she didn't have a son, Michael.
	But she was shown that this could be her son if she did not want to say, if she could go back, that this could be her son, the one that she was trying to abort.
	Gotcha.
	Now, in her mind, she was panicking and she's saying, but I can't afford, I can barely afford to support myself.
	And all she was doing was just housecleaning.
	And this was over me.
	Which was the reason that she was doing this?
	Uh, botched abortion on herself in the first place I presume, right?
	Yeah, well, there was more to it.
	She actually had a married boyfriend.
	She didn't know he was married at the time.
	He was only 19.
	So that even adds to it.
	Okay.
	Yeah, and so when she told him she was pregnant, he immediately broke off the relationship and told her he had a wife and five children.
	Okay, I'm with you.
	In another city.
	Well, that just made her feel worse.
	Of course.
	And she's trying to struggle and make it on her own.
	She couldn't stand living with her mother who was overbearing and extremely religious fanatic.
	So she ended up going out on her own, getting pregnant, in a very poverty-like situation.
	She was panicking about this.
	She felt a little guilty about it, but she was still asking the Being of Light, how in the world can I manage?
	I can barely manage my own life.
	This is not an unusual story anyway.
	This is a usual.
	There is lots of this going on of course.
	Yeah, well anyway she was panicking about this.
	She felt a little guilty about it, but she was still asking the being of life, how in
	the world can I manage?
	I can barely manage my own life.
	Then he showed her a picture of a man holding like a baby, not a baby, but a toddler's hand.
	And then she was in the background.
	So she understood instantly that this was her future husband, that there would be somebody
	provided in her life to help her with this child.
	And then she felt an overwhelming sense of guilt that she was trying to murder this child
	essentially because she was worried about finances and basically being very selfish
	This is her own words.
	Then pop!
	She was back in her body.
	All the pain and all the anguish and everything came right back to her.
	There was a nurse standing over her.
	This was the only nurse that was in a blue uniform.
	She'd seen that woman when she was admitted to the hospital.
	The one woman in the blue uniform was like the head nurse.
	So she recognized that nurse.
	When she came to, you know, when she was basically over the worst part of her situation, the doctor came in and said, it's a miracle that we saved your life.
	We thought we'd lost you and the baby.
	I don't understand how.
	It's an absolute miracle.
	He kept saying, it's a miracle that we saved the baby.
	And she said, yes, I know, and his name is going to be Michael.
	And the doctor kind of looked at her like, oh God, you know, she was slipping out, hallucinating.
	So he didn't want to hear about it.
	Then later on the nurse came in and she told the nurse.
	Now the nurse had been used to hearing these kinds of tales.
	So the nurse thought, gosh, you know I better listen to this woman because obviously nobody
	else wanted to be bothered with this weird woman.
	And she said, you know, there is a red sticker on the ceiling fan and it was in German, which
	didn't bother her.
	She could still read the sticker even though she was Polish.
	But nevertheless that doesn't seem to be a problem when you are in this state.
	So the nurse ordered the orderly to go down and get the ladder and they climbed up and
	confirmed that there was a sticker indeed on the underside of the ceiling fan that nobody
	else could see, nobody else knew.
	And it was full of dust.
	So it's obvious that nobody has ever touched it since it was installed years before.
	Okay, now that's just one.
	Do you... I mean, that's an astounding story.
	Mm-hmm.
	Particularly the last part of it.
	Mm-hmm.
	Now, how do we know... Let's see, she would not have been in any state where she could have gotten up and looked at that fan and gotten above it.
	So, um, whose testimony do we have That all of this is so?
	Well, basically, you see, this happened 34 years ago, so it's not like the people are easily found, especially in Warsaw, Poland.
	You're right, of course, yes.
	So, all I'm doing is I'm going by this woman's word, and believe me, I had to work hard and long, and Jeff can confirm this, to get this woman to spill the beans, because She told me she'd had a near-death experience six months ago and it took me that long to get it out of her.
	And the reason she gave it to me at all was because I think she knew that she was going to be going back to Poland to be with her son Michael, who by the way now has a grandchild.
	Which, you know, proves the story.
	I've got a better one coming up next.
	Go ahead.
	We'll do that.
	Let me just say one thing.
	I had to worm it out of her the world's worst way.
	This was an embarrassing thing.
	She was Catholic, after all.
	Of course it's embarrassing.
	This is one of those life secrets that everybody has, in one form or another, that, yeah, you've got to worm it out of them and you'd be lucky to get it all.
	I mean, all of us have.
	Secrets in our life and shames in our life, you know, we're just not perfect beings, so we all have them.
	She said this experience totally changed her life and she became a much better person afterward and even got back into the church, but a different sort of church, one that was a little more liberal.
	Also, the man in the life that she saw that the being gave her a preview of actually did come along and help her raise that child.
	A lot of these things have come together.
	Since she had this child, Michael, it was her only child because she couldn't have any other children due to the damage she had done to herself.
	She and he had been exceptionally close in all ways and even psychically bonded.
	Every time he had a problem, she knew about it.
	Anytime he was going to get hurt, he knew about it.
	All right.
	I have heard, and certainly it was true with Danion Brinkley and so many others who have had NDEs, when they come back, they seem to have acquired psychic powers of one sort or another.
	Very strong at the beginning, and then, according to Danion, I don't know if this is typical, but over the years, then beginning to fade.
	Either one of you, is that typical?
	Yes, now this lady had said to me that in the beginning she had a lot of visionary dreams of things that were going to happen to her and her loved ones.
	Yes.
	And they came true.
	Yes.
	But then this has been 35 years ago since this event and she still is in a way psychic But it's not nearly as prevalent as it used to be.
	Alright, so then there really does seem to be a kind of typical NDE experience.
	The tunnel, the light, the relatives, many times a life review.
	Is that kind of typical of an NDE?
	Am I missing something here?
	Obviously seeing things in the external world that you couldn't possibly see.
	That sort of thing.
	Is that typical of an NDE, or am I missing some part?
	No, that's pretty common, actually, Art.
	That happens quite a bit.
	I'm going to let Jeff.
	He's motioning he'd like to talk.
	Yeah, sure.
	Go ahead, Jeff.
	Yeah, I think for the listeners, you know, that might be quite startled by a story like that.
	They may come away wondering, well, how do we know is this story unusual or unique in some particular way?
	And I'd like to assure your listeners that this story is not Rare or even particularly unusual, but there are dozens and dozens, hundreds, and certainly with our Near Death Experience Research Foundation, we're logging more and more of these types of experiences.
	This is not unusual for people to have experiences where there is this kind of sense of consciousness outside of their body where they get information that is absolutely not verifiable, that absolutely could not have happened.
	With any other explanation other than near-death experience working.
	I mean, there's no brain chemistry explanation for this.
	There's really no alternate explanation other than that this is some kind of a significant phenomenon of a near-death experience.
	Well, Dr. Long, being an oncologist, you're just very much a mainstream medical doctor, and so I think that an awful lot of your colleagues, where they hear what you're saying right now, I've seen them as you have on programs explaining brain death and the entire experience is such a crock.
	It's just brain cells that are dying on the outside moving inward and that the light is at the center of this and so people seeing light is no big surprise.
	Look, we're at the top of the hour.
	So when we come back, Dr. Long, would you pick up on that point as we proceed, all right?
	Absolutely.
	All right, stand right there, everybody.
	We are going to break here at the top of the hour.
	I have two guests, Dr. Tricia McGill, who is a clinical psychologist, and Dr. Jeff Long, who is an oncologist, radiation oncologist, and we're discussing near-death experiences.
	The really controversial part of this discussion lays ahead.
	Stay right where you are.
	I'm not afraid of the dark.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM, with Art Bell.
	Now, here again is Art.
	Once again, here I am.
	We're talking, very seriously, talking about near-death experiences.
	We have two guests right now, Dr. Tricia McGill, who is a clinical psychologist, and Dr. Jet Wong, who's a radiation oncologist.
	And they're both talking about NDEs.
	Dr. McGill has told us several stories now that seem, in some cases, irrefutable.
	People who have clinically died for varying periods of time, and then have seen things that they could not possibly have seen, things that were checked out and proven to be true.
	They have visited relatives, in one case one woman who died saw a sneaker on a ledge outside of the building that she was in the hospital and that was confirmed.
	Now, some of this sort of testimony and evidence really begins to seem irrefutable.
	We will continue with some of that and talk to Dr. Long about brain death, brain cell death, in a moment.
	I'm Art Bell And this is Coast to Coast AM.
	All right, back now to my guests, Dr. Jeff Long and Dr. Tricia McGill.
	Welcome back, both of you.
	Hi.
	Lots of good stories.
	I wanted to move to Dr. Long for a moment and ask Dr. Long, a lot of regular physicians, Doctor, stand up, as we briefly touched on earlier, and they say, This whole NDE experience is easily explained.
	The brain dies, and it does so from the outside moving inward to the more inner portions of the brain, and that accounts for the white light that people see, and there are endorphins released in a protective manner by the body to make the dying process, I guess, more physically palatable.
	For a person, and there is really nothing more to this whole NDE thing than that.
	And I'm sure if they were to hear you deviate from that, they would no doubt take issue with you.
	Most of your colleagues would, wouldn't they?
	Well, I think that a lot of physicians are closed-minded and some are fairly open-minded.
	I think some of the more open-minded ones would be open to the concept we have that there's some reality to near-death experience that goes above and beyond just simply the physiological.
	You talked about endorphins and the concept of the brain sort of shutting down from the outside to the inside.
	These are all incorporated in some of the alternate theories of near-death experience.
	In other words, there's some physicians and other health science professionals that argue, hey, there's an alternate way to explain near-death experience.
	There may be something related to endorphins, which for your listeners' sake is a type of naturally produced narcotic substance in the brain that helps relieve pain.
	There's a lot of other psychological or physiological explanations that aren't... I don't think any of these explanations that have been advanced by any health professional at any time can really explain the kind of experiences that we're describing.
	I mean, time and time again we're hearing about people that simply describe things that they simply could not have known if they didn't have a full-blown out-of-body experience associated with consciousness removed from their physical body.
	And there's nothing, there's no chemical in the brain That can cause this kind of thing to the best of my knowledge.
	Well, what about endorphins?
	What are endorphins and why are they not... What occurs?
	In other words, how are your colleagues wrong in that regard?
	Well, endorphins are a type of naturally produced, if you will, narcotic type substance.
	And I say that in a sense that they have narcotic type of effects.
	They reduce pain.
	They can sort of be associated with a sense of euphoria.
	The people that, for example, joggers that do very vigorous physical activity can raise their endorphin levels in their brain and feel sort of, if you will, a high or a sort of a narcotic type of a sensation as a result of naturally occurring endorphins.
	And I think, certainly in my clinical practice, managing cancer patients, we use an awful lot of Narcotics and relieving cancer pain.
	At no point have I heard anybody that we've treated with these type of narcotic drugs describe anything like a near-death experience.
	It simply is not associated with, to the best of my knowledge, either naturally occurring endorphins or synthetic type of medications that we use to relieve pain.
	How many of your colleagues do you think would argue with you over this issue?
	I think there are certainly some what I would refer to as open-minded skeptics that would quibble with me based on some alternate explanations of near-death experience.
	I'm open to that.
	I think that's entirely reasonable.
	I support open-minded skeptics and any alternate explanation that they can possibly provide.
	I think that's how we're going to learn.
	As researchers here with the Near-Death Experience Research Foundation, I welcome this kind of challenge.
	I welcome this kind of input.
	I welcome this kind of open-minded Uh, alternate type of explanations to near-death experience.
	Uh, and I... Alright, one of your telephones is about to quit working.
	That's a low battery warning.
	Uh-huh.
	Could you call... Do the wild thing at 702-727-1295.
	Okay, now hold on.
	Um, I just eliminated that.
	I didn't want to put that phone number on the air.
	Yeah.
	Um, so, um, you say, uh, we have lost, uh, Tricia?
	Oh, you've lost that line.
	Okay, we'll reconnect with that at the bottom of the hour.
	Okay.
	In the meantime, I've got lots of really good questions for you.
	Have you interfaced with anybody who has actually done work on brain cell death and on the death of the brain?
	I mean, there's some pretty... On this program, we've discussed some pretty outrageous stuff.
	And one of the outrageous things we've discussed is, long ago, they used to lop people's heads off.
	They would just, you know, the guillotine.
	And there is some substantial reason to believe, I think, that people actually, there were some very gory, macabre experiments done by some people who were given the guillotine in which They would blink as their head was in the basket and that sort of thing.
	I mean, that would indicate that even with a complete cessation of blood flow, some seconds, at least, some seconds of consciousness would remain.
	Yes?
	Absolutely, yeah, that certainly, yes.
	It sounds like that's what's going on.
	So, potentially then, you really could be laying there in the basket thinking, well, here I am in the basket.
	I suppose conceivably for a little while the brain has about as high a dependency on blood
	flow as any other organ in the body.
	So once it loses its blood flow, as you would if it's been severed from the body, you're
	talking about a matter of a relatively short number of seconds before you would lose consciousness,
	at least the way we conceive of it medically.
	What do you consider to be...
	Are you familiar with a Dr. White in Chicago?
	Uh, no.
	And his research.
	Dr. White, I interviewed him and I've read about his research and he did some kind of interesting things.
	He removed the head of one monkey and attached it to the body of another monkey.
	I have heard of that, yes.
	Okay, now they obviously were not able to attach the spinal cord.
	We don't have that kind of ability yet.
	However, in every other way, the monkey was responsive with eye movement.
	The monkey would follow you.
	The monkey was able to function in every other way other than, I suppose, being paralyzed, obviously.
	But in every other way appeared to be normal.
	Now, I don't know if they can do that kind of experimentation anymore.
	But it goes to, there are a lot of questions here.
	What is the soul?
	What is our consciousness?
	Is our consciousness and our souls, are they the same thing?
	And as long as the blood keeps flowing, does it remain there?
	Is it in your brain?
	Is it within your brain?
	Care to even address these kinds of questions?
	Yeah, those are some very interesting questions.
	Part of what we're doing with the Near-Death Experience Research Foundation is we're starting with the premise that we don't know the answers to a lot of those very important questions.
	You know, Art, we're asking ourselves some of those very same concepts and our method of research is our belief that the more near-death experience research and the more near-death experiencers that we talk to, the more we're going to try to get some idea about the answers to that.
	We're very early in our work with the Near Death Experience Research Foundation and our ideas that we're developing are fairly preliminary.
	One of the ideas that we have that I think is relatively original is that at the time of many near-death experiences, there's a life review.
	At the time of life review, very often this is associated with not only perceiving your entire life and understanding how you felt when you interacted with other people, But understanding how the other people felt that interacted with you throughout your entire life, a concept that occurs about maybe one out of every four of the near-death experiences that we've run into.
	All right.
	Here's a controversial question for you.
	The world is full, and again, I think your phone is now dying, Doctor.
	I'm sorry about this, B. It'll be good for another 15 or 20 minutes at least.
	twenty minutes. I see. There are lots of people who seem to report the exact same thing.
	Is it reasonable, then, is it reasonable scientifically to conclude, yet, that based on the evidence Trisha was talking about earlier, based on what you know, that there really is a life after death, some sort of existence, some sort of passage of energy You know, that's my very strong bias, that based on all available evidence that we have, and the near-death experience is probably the strongest evidence that we have, I think from, and I'm a pretty skeptical guy, Art, you know, I don't jump into believing things or accepting things without some proof that goes along with it, and based on what I've encountered with near-death experience, I get it.
	I think there's some life after death.
	I think very clearly There's some consciousness that exists after death and apart from the physical body.
	Near-death experiences are not rare.
	In 1982, a Gallup poll suggested that as many as 8 million Americans have near-death experiences.
	8 million?
	Yeah, this is not a rare or unusual event.
	Alright, what about religions?
	I mean, do people come back, and here you'll probably step into trouble, but do people come back and report that They experienced what, you know, their Catholicism told them they would experience, or their Baptist background, or their Protestant background, or Buddhist, or whatever.
	Do people come back and report those things, or not?
	And if not, don't be afraid to say not.
	Well, you know, I think there's sort of a duality.
	I think I'm very impressed with the fact that near-death experiences are very consistent.
	Some of the consistent elements that I hope we have a chance to go over later on in the show are very consistent no matter where you are in terms of time over centuries, no matter where you are in terms of country or religious belief or cultural background.
	That's one of the really fascinating parts of near-death experiences.
	The common elements seem to be very, very persistent.
	Throughout very diverse cultures and religious backgrounds.
	So I think that's one of the real significant things that adds credibility and credence.
	But doesn't that suggest that it doesn't make a tinker's bit of difference what your religious background is.
	You're going to have a common experience in death.
	Yes?
	I think that is implied by the fact that the near-death experience seems to be so constant.
	I think that's a strong, suggestive evidence that all of us are going to end up in, quote, the same place, unquote, because of the consistency of that experience across so many diverse cultures.
	And if people had, if their entire life history preceding the near-death experience was to have a strong bearing on what happened to them or what they perceived at the near-death experience, You know, i.e.
	if it was a physiological or brain chemistry thing, you know, that would be one thing.
	But that part, that's not what we're seeing.
	We're seeing consistency and persistency of the experience across a tremendous diversity of cultures and times and religious beliefs.
	And I think that really suggests that there's something, something lying out there beyond.
	And that really suggests, again, I walk down the rough road here, that the individual religious rules Could you turn on the radio, please?
	That's going to have to stay off during the interview, Doug.
	That suggests to me that all the individual religious rules, and I'll say rules, involved, for example, in Catholicism, and I'm not picking on that by any means, are really sort of out the window and these are made up things made up by man and that really there is something that happens but it's a common thing that doesn't have anything specifically to do with any specific religion because each one of these religions is always running around saying we're the only path!
	You can go down any other path and you know where you're going?
	You're going to hell!
	Nothing that I'm encountering in our research or in my Talking with people that have had NDE experiences or reading about them, nothing at all seems to contradict any of the teachings of any of the major religions that I'm aware of.
	I think if anything, this helps substantiate the major religions and their teaching that there is going to be a God, there is going to be love, and I find that this reinforces my personal religious beliefs.
	Okay, I'm with you, but I mean, there are a lot of, well for example, Uh, there are religions that suggest if you are not baptized in a specific way, you're going to hell.
	Now that's a good specific example for you.
	I happen to believe that's a bunch of baloney.
	That if you've been a good person, um, and if your life review goes well, you're probably going to have the white light and whatever all awaits on the other side that is good.
	Yeah.
	And you know, in the white light of me, You know, a positive, if you will, experience occurs in 97-98% of the people that have this.
	So it's certainly very unusual.
	People have a frightening near-death experience.
	But not unheard of.
	Not unheard of.
	Yeah, I would agree with that.
	Getting back directly to your question, I guess what we're saying with our research is all the people that describe the being of light are talking about a being of love.
	A being that loves people, that cares, intense compassion.
	People that have near-death experiences, the great majority of them find that this is a very life-changing, positive event in their life.
	They lose, to a large degree, their fear of death.
	They're much more interested in issues regarding God and their spiritual side.
	I think if this isn't the goal of the major religions, it ought to be.
	But don't they mostly seem to come back, I know I seem to be dwelling on this, And where they might have been involved in a specific religion, they come back and while they are more spiritual, they tend to drift away from a specific religion.
	Yes?
	I don't know that that's been... I don't know that that's a consistent or persistent pattern of what we're seeing.
	People are more concerned about their spiritual side.
	All the major religions are uh... pretty much by definition concerned about the
	individual spirituality sharing that has a lot to do with it
	actresses certainly have a lot more experience with near-death experiences
	with her over uh... two hundred near-death experience that we need to
	know i'd be interested in her comment right and we'll get them in a moment but she
	did give us one example of the lady who
	uh... i think converted she said to a more liberal uh... religion of some sort
	Well, she actually remained in the Catholic Church.
	She started out in the Catholic Church and remained in the Catholic Church.
	But I think, you know, across all religions, there's going to be people that are closed-minded, that are judgmental, that will hear a person describe a near-death experience and say, hey, this is something that is so outside of my personal life experience that this can't be real.
	Do you reject the people who came back and said they were in hell?
	Yeah, I'm sorry, reject them?
	Yeah, do you reject those stories?
	Not at all.
	Not at all?
	Probably one to two percent of people have frightening near-death experiences and I think
	that's probably just part of the spectrum of what we're running into with near-death
	experiences.
	With regard to the earlier story, the individual stayed in the Catholic Church, just the more
	liberal denomination.
	I got you.
	Hold on, hold on, Doctor.
	We'll be right back.
	Birds of love, so soft and tender, won't win a girl's heart anymore.
	If you love her, then you must save her somewhere where she's never been before.
	You must save her somewhere where she's never been before.
	More nasty phrases and more engaging home, get you where you want to go.
	More nasty phrases and more in-gays as well get you where you want to go.
	Birds of a feather, soft and tender, won't wither.
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	If you're overweight, the catabolic diet is the most effective.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM, from the Kingdom of Nye, with Art Bell.
	Back now to our guests, and we're reduced now to one telephone, so here is Dr. Tricia McGill, I believe, back on the line.
	Doctor?
	Yes, we'll get you Tricia right here.
	Okay, Dr. Long.
	Hello.
	Hi, Tricia.
	Hi.
	Welcome back.
	I'm sorry we got reduced to one phone, but such is the... Actually, we've got another phone now.
	We dug it out real fast and plugged it in.
	If you want to call on that other number, the 395 number?
	Um, okay.
	Well, once we're back on the air here, I can't do it.
	So we'll have to do it.
	Okay, I'll tell you what.
	I'll tell you what.
	Hold on.
	Maybe I can do it.
	Oh, that'd be great.
	Jeff accidentally hit the button on the phone and disconnected it and we've had trouble ever since trying to get.
	I see.
	All right.
	Let me take one more quick break and try that.
	Stand by a moment, please.
	We will take, just to get them both on, I really want them both on because we're about to get into the very controversial portion of what we're going to be talking about.
	And what we're going to be talking about is a new drug.
	A chemically induced NDE.
	And we're only going to tell you so much about it, so strap yourself in.
	And get ready, that's coming up.
	All right, here we go, and I think we've got everybody back online.
	Dr. Long, you're there?
	I'm here.
	Okay, and Dr. McGill?
	Yes, I am.
	All right.
	Dr. McGill, we're about to talk about this very controversial new drug, which we are going to call Drug X. We're not going to call it anything else.
	But before we do, you said you had an NDE you wanted to describe.
	That in itself is very controversial, and people, I guess you better brace yourselves for what you're about to hear, Doctor.
	Well, okay, I'm going to try to put this as tactfully as possible, but a MDE was reported to me several years ago.
	This gentleman was quite high up in his church's order, if you follow me.
	He was a minister.
	Well, actually, he was Yeah, you can say what he was.
	Was he a bishop or something?
	In the Catholic Church, yes.
	Okay, you forced me to say it.
	I was going to try to be very vague.
	But yes, he was.
	He was quite high up and he just thought he was automatically going to have this wonderful life review and that he was just going to be ushered directly right into the throne of heaven, so to speak.
	He found out later on, much to his shock, that that doesn't really count.
	What really counts, basically, more than any other thing, is what's in your heart.
	Do you love your fellow man?
	How do you treat your fellow man?
	Well, exactly what was his experience?
	Well, his experience was that he died, or came close to it anyway.
	That's a questionable term.
	You know, death is sort of undefined at this stage.
	But yes, he did die.
	Through the tunnel he saw the being of light and he just thought everything was just going to be hunky-dory.
	Yes.
	But he saw in his past life review where he had been egotistical.
	He had been insufferably boring at times and he did some things that were kind of like self-serving and greedy.
	A lot of these things came up in his past life review, and basically the Being of Light said it really doesn't matter.
	What really counts is what's in your heart.
	You could be the highest of all the high.
	You could be a Pope, for example.
	In other words, the Being of Light told him, we don't care what your position is in the church?
	That's exactly right.
	What really counts, and this came as a horrible shock to him, and he didn't even like telling it, but what really counts is did you live a good life?
	How did you treat others?
	What was your intention?
	Intention counts for a lot.
	For example, if you go to church three times a week and you do all the right things, but in your heart you think you're better than everyone, if you lord it over them, for example.
	You're so much better and so much more godly.
	That's the opposite of what God really wants.
	This is counterproductive to the bigger picture.
	So in other words, his experience was less than joyful.
	Yes, that's exactly it.
	It was a real shake-up for him.
	Even though he went to the light, he saw the being, it was more of a dressing down than it was an experience of love and peace.
	There are no secrets in the afterlife.
	There just aren't any.
	Everything you've ever done and every motive you've ever had is exposed completely for what it is.
	Sometimes people get into this power trip and ego trip and that kind of thing.
	Even if you're doing good, basically, you're being a good person, but if you're doing a lot of things with the wrong motives, that does come out.
	Just as a matter of interest, if you were our president and dying, would you want an extra long cassette for the length of your life review?
	If you were president?
	Our president.
	Oh, you mean Clinton.
	I think Clinton would prefer to fast forward, dear.
	Alright, now look, we're going to start stepping into it.
	I want to tell my audience, and I want to tell you all, I began to hear A couple of weeks ago, and I mentioned it on the air, I began to hear rumors of a drug that can produce... Did you two see Flatliners?
	Yeah.
	You saw it too, Dr. Long?
	You're going to have to stay good and close to that phone, doctor.
	I sure will.
	There you go, that's better.
	So you've both seen it.
	Yeah.
	A really nice fictional story.
	Right.
	A fascinating story.
	And before we move on to what we're about to talk about, before it got into the ghosts and people coming back to haunt you and all the rest of it that was in Flatliners, would what they did in Flatliners, Dr. Long, I'll ask you, be technically feasible?
	In other words, could you extinguish somebody's life signs?
	With by some means and they're breathing their heart to all the rest of it in a clinical setting
	And then as they did in flatliners, uh wait uh
	an amount of time uh two minutes say And revive them. Could you could that be done?
	I aren't I think theoretically you could do that, but I think that would be
	An incredibly unethical form of research. I think it would be almost an insane form of research
	But I'm not asking that.
	Yeah, theoretically, yes.
	Ethically, no.
	Of course, ethically, no.
	Alright, the rumors that I've been hearing about a drug that is said to produce an MDE, and we know what this drug is, all of us, all three of us know what it is, and we're not going to name it, but are these rumors true?
	Is there a drug X?
	We're going to call it drug X. Is there such a thing?
	Well, I will have to say that there is, Art.
	There is indeed a drug X, as we've alluded to all along in this show, which can reproduce some of the elements of a near-death experience.
	It's been used by some skeptics of near-death experience to say, hey, there seems to be a chemical or some physiological reason for near-death experience outside of the spiritual realm.
	So I would have to say that, and it's certainly from some of the experiences that have been described by users of DrugX, I would have to say yes, it is a very interesting issue.
	Oh my.
	I want to stay away from discussing the specifics of DrugX, but Dr. Long, I think you'd be the one to properly ask about this.
	What would you consider An honest evaluation, if you would please, to be the medical risks of drug X. I think any drug that substantially impairs your consciousness and your ability to interact with the environment and further a drug that has some risk of at least psychological dependence has some risks.
	I would view this drug very cautiously as I would any other drug that has this kind of effect.
	Is there a risk of death?
	I think with any drug, if you take it in a high enough dose, yes.
	The drug we're talking about, drug X, is actually a type of anesthetic.
	And this drug, in a high enough dose, will result in cessation of heart rate and breathing, i.e.
	clinical death.
	Dr. McGill, it's my understanding that you intend to personally use, experiment with drug X, is that correct?
	Well, actually, I don't know where you got that information, Art.
	By talking to you earlier in the day?
	Oh, gosh, did I say that?
	Yes, ma'am, you did.
	Okay, yes.
	Look, this is radio.
	We're just laying it out here on the table.
	You can say this.
	You can say it.
	It's not that I was hedging the question.
	I think the way I tried to put it was that after a certain amount of research into the dangers, the risks, Everything I can find out about this drug.
	If I think it's safe enough, and it has been used, by the way, extensively since the 70s on, by the way, it's not that new a drug.
	If I feel that it's safe enough, I will, under controlled situations, do it.
	For example, if Dr. Long would be willing to You mean to be your control?
	Yeah.
	Dr. Long, would you be willing to do that?
	I think the use of a drug for other than its prescribed approved utility, which happens to be an anesthetic, I think should only be done under an approved investigational study.
	There are some very definite criteria for establishment of an investigational study.
	I'd really want to see that established before I'd want anybody to take this.
	Any drug that impairs your consciousness and perception of the world around you has hazards.
	I'm certainly very, very interested in to what extent this can reproduce some of the experiences of a near-death experience.
	I'm very, very concerned for the safety of the individuals using this.
	I guess a direct answer to your question would be yes.
	I would be involved with that, but only under some very kind of rigid circumstances and under an approved investigational protocol.
	Okay, Dr. Long.
	Do you imagine that a board of physicians like yourself reviewing the use of this drug by Dr. McGill or anybody else for the purposes that we're discussing tonight would or could be approved Yes, absolutely.
	Absolutely. In fact, the National Institute of Health is toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
	It's on the individuals and it's a...
	Okay, I just... Hold on a second. I just had to eliminate that.
	Yes.
	We are going to call it Persistently Drug X and you just use the name of the drug.
	We don't want to do that.
	I understand that both of you are doctors and that both of you would use the name of the drug by accident, which we just did.
	Anyway, your answer then, Doctor, is you would be a control for Dr. McGill under these circumstances.
	You know, I think if the proper study were designed to investigate this, absolutely.
	In fact, studies like that have already been done.
	Any drug that is used, and in particular, drug X, If you do it under controlled circumstances so that you get the maximal amount of information from it to you, I think that might be useful.
	I think it might help us to understand a little bit about what the effects of drug X are and try to compare and contrast it with some of the near-death experiences that we shared with your listeners.
	How would you medically want to monitor Tricia if she took drug X?
	In other words, just now without the panel review, if I were to ask you, What kind of medical monitoring would you want to do while she took this drug in those amounts?
	Okay.
	Well, as with any investigational study, you need to make sure there's informed consent.
	You then need to do it under circumstances in which all the, you know, you'd want to get an EKG going and check blood pressure and check all the other vital functions at the time they're taking it.
	I'd want to do it very, very cautiously and perhaps with a certain dose escalation so that it maintains a maximal amount of safety.
	It would be a little bit of a tricky thing to do, but I suppose it's possible.
	All right.
	Dr. McGill, can you tell me what we know of those who have experimented with drug X?
	What reports we've received?
	How close are they having real NDEs?
	Is it the same story?
	What do we hear?
	Well, I'll tell you what.
	A lot of people say that there's some very common elements with an NDE.
	But there's also some things that are not the same.
	So I think what I'm going to do here is I'm going to let Jeff explain a little bit, and then I'm going to take it back over and explain my part of it.
	Okay?
	Well, I was just curious about what reports you'd had.
	In other words, there are a lot of similarities.
	People report tunnels.
	They report beings of light.
	Do they get that with Drug X?
	According to one study, they do.
	I'm not sure that I'm going to totally buy into that study.
	It's the one that I faxed you earlier today.
	This is the one that is supposedly the only really in-depth study on this subject.
	Yes.
	And you got that right?
	Oh yes, but I want the audience to get it, so if you could summarize.
	Okay.
	Basically, according to this situation, in the can be induced using this dissociative drug.
	And the kinds of things that they have are very similar, according to this study of course, to an NDE.
	For example, they talk about leaving the body or feelings that you're separated from the body, going into a tunnel, they even talk about that.
	Common hallucinations include landscapes, I don't know.
	people, including partners, parents, teachers, friends, and even religious and sometimes
	mythical figures, including angels and that sort of thing.
	Then they see a light, which they sometimes interpret as the source or God.
	Then they sometimes have memories that are frequently of their past leading up to the
	They emerge into consciousness.
	Meaning a life review?
	Yeah, like a life review.
	They hear noises during the initial part of the NDE.
	Do they report out-of-body experiences?
	Yeah, some of them feel like they're separated from their body according to this report.
	I don't really know because, you see, since I haven't taken the drug and I'm a researcher, it's hard for me to say.
	That I agree with this until I have experienced this sort of thing or interviewed people who have this drug and up to this point I have not interviewed a single person who has.
	Although you do have one hard medical report about it, don't you?
	I have this one, yes.
	The one I faxed you.
	But that's it.
	I don't have any others.
	You know what?
	I've been interviewing people about NDEs for years now.
	Years.
	And I have never heard of DrugX until just recently.
	Now, I'm not exactly sure how that can be because I've been so involved with the NDE community.
	Is this something that was sort of held tightly in a small circle of physicians?
	That kind of thing?
	No, I wouldn't say so, Art.
	I think it was fairly commonly used. Dr. Moody and I discussed this
	earlier today as soon as you called me this afternoon and asked me to be on the show. Yes. I
	immediately called him to see what he knew about some of the history and he told me that when he
	started into medical school back in 72 they had already taken this drug and basically said we're
	not going to use it anymore because...
	Well look I'll tell you something...
	I've interviewed... Look, I've interviewed Dr. Moody many times, and trust me, he's never mentioned Drug X. The two of you... I'm not surprised.
	Hold on.
	We're in a break.
	We'll be back.
	Take a rest.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM from the Kingdom of Nye. That's exactly what it is. I'm Art Bell.
	Morning everybody.
	We're treading some pretty strange ground here.
	Dr. Jeff Long, who's an oncologist, and Dr. Tricia McGill, who's a psychologist, are my guests.
	And we are discussing something now called Drug X, that is said to produce an NDE.
	And we'll get back to these two in a moment.
	It is a... It's definitely a wild subject.
	So...
	Stay right where you are.
	There's more to come.
	This is Coast to Coast AM, venturing out on what I call the Cut Edge.
	Now, back to my guests.
	Welcome back, you two.
	Hello, Art.
	Yes, Dr. Long.
	Hello.
	Good.
	I want to tell you both something.
	You seem very tentative, almost treating my audience with kid gloves.
	You don't have to do that.
	This is serious radio, and you know, you just don't have to do that, alright?
	You can just lay it out the way it is, with the exception of giving the name of this drug.
	We don't have to be tentative about anything we're saying.
	These are grown-ups out there, and it's very early in the morning, so we can just lay it on them.
	Okay, Art, we pull no punches.
	Yeah, don't pull any punches, that's right.
	That's exactly what I want.
	Here's a fact.
	In fact, I'm going to read you two facts.
	Art, why are these doctors holding back on us?
	Sounds like they're lying sometimes.
	Thanks for dragging the truth out of them.
	Something is very funny about those two.
	And this is from Dallas, Texas.
	Fort Worth, Texas, I'm sorry.
	And I, of course, disagree.
	I don't think either one of you have lied at all.
	I think that what you've done is to try to, in some cases, kind of soft-pedal some stuff.
	And you don't have to do that.
	Um, the second fax, uh, is as follows.
	Uh, tonight, Art, your subject really is hitting home with me.
	My mom is, right now, in the hospital, dying of cancer.
	Third, fourth, and fifth, lumbar and liver cancer.
	Uh, she's, uh, received radiation treatment.
	Tomorrow, we find out, hopefully, what's going on.
	Obviously, that's why I'm so interested in the show.
	See, my family is not religious, especially me.
	So, I guess that makes dealing with an impending death hard.
	I found some solace in the idea of NDEs, and my question is, how linked to religion are these experiences?
	Do they vary with the religious status of the person?
	And here's where the gloves can come off.
	And I think we really already, in a way, addressed this, but we did it with kid gloves.
	Now, you told the story of the person in the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.
	We've got a pretty cold reception from the being of light.
	No, I wouldn't say cold.
	I would say that it was a very realistic kind of appraisal of some of the things in his life that he thought, where he had made great strides, that the motivation was not totally selfless.
	I meant to say more or less.
	I'm not trying to squatter this down, but I'm trying to be as honest as I can.
	I hear you.
	Alright.
	Then, in discussion of what are a person's... Suppose... What reports do we have of agnostics or atheists, even atheists, who have had NDEs?
	What reports do we have of those?
	Any?
	Yes.
	Yes?
	Agnostics and...
	What would you call it?
	Absolutely atheists have the same exact NDEs that everybody else has.
	Do they now?
	They do.
	There's no difference at all.
	So then there's solace for this fellow because he's in effect saying, look, my family is not religious.
	My mom's dying.
	Obviously, I want to know if NDEs seem to apply to everybody.
	It may be something of a foxhole conversion, but there's a lot of that.
	It's human nature.
	The whole point of our existence, from what I can gather, is love.
	That's the bottom line.
	Yeah, I agree with that.
	If you lead a good life, if you don't deliberately set out to hurt anybody, if you try to be considerate of other people, if you treat them the way you'd like to be treated, if you have compassion, if you have all those good motives, it doesn't matter whether you set foot in a church or not.
	I'm sorry, I don't mean to tread on anybody's religion, but this is what I'm getting repeatedly.
	It's kindness.
	It's selfless acts of love.
	It's a smile that can light the end of the day for somebody who's dying, a kind act, a pleasant smile, a word, a pat.
	It's the little things that count.
	I mean, you could be the highest holy of whatever church you belong to, but if your heart isn't good and if your mind isn't in the right place and your motives are self-serving, it doesn't really matter.
	It's basically what's in your heart.
	I absolutely agree with you and I think that love, I know it sounds trite, but the truth is that love really is, I think, I don't even know what to say about it.
	Alright, I'm going to leave that subject for a second.
	Again, Dr. McGill, you did earlier today, I'm sure you'll now recall in the conversation, suggest that you would give this drug a try or wanted to give this drug a try.
	Yeah, I do recall that now.
	I believe I prefaced it by saying, just between you and I are.
	Did you say that?
	I did, I did.
	Did you whisper it?
	You know what?
	I don't care.
	It's out.
	You know, let me ask Jeff to take over from here because he's got some information on that.
	You may have whispered that in my ear.
	I think I said it quite clearly, but okay, go ahead.
	Well, I don't mind being candid between friends.
	That's not a problem.
	You know, I think your listeners need to know that, you know, when Tricia talks about the possibility that she would consider Using Drug X as a research tool to understand what exactly the similarities and dissimilarities are of India.
	I think it's probably important for your listeners to know that, and I've known Tricia for a long time, this is an individual that essentially does not drink alcohol, has never smoked a cigarette in her life, has never used any illicit substance in her life ever.
	And yet, because of her interest, and passionate interest, understanding this phenomenon, is willing to take what could be a personal risk and do this.
	So I think that's somewhat courageous, if not heroic.
	So do I. I certainly wouldn't recommend it for the general public, and she certainly has a long history of not using illicit substances for thrills.
	No, no, I'm with you all the way.
	Do you, too, in this endeavor, feel Probably a little like those participants in Flatliners.
	I think anybody that uses drug X under controlled circumstances is going to be... I don't think they're taking any kind of risk of Flatliners, where if your listeners aren't familiar with the movie, they actually induced some kind of cessation of heart and lung breathing and saw what happened next.
	That really isn't This drug, X, is not that dangerous, but it's still, you know, anytime you use a hallucinatory drug, there's always some risk.
	So, that's, I think it's somewhat courageous for anybody that would be willing to do this in the name of science and under very tightly controlled circumstances.
	Yes.
	By the way, again, I don't want to name it, but is this drug a controlled drug?
	Is it on the list of controlled drugs?
	Yeah, controlled substances are those that are considered to have significant potential for abuse from a medical point of view.
	And this is kind of an interesting... Drug X is an interesting drug.
	It's considered a controlled substance in a number of states, but not all states.
	It's not a federally recognized controlled substance, which I find surprising, given the effects of this drug and the fact that some people are using it in an abuse manner.
	But that is, at this point, The fact that actually even a minority of states consider it to be a controlled substance.
	Well, I'm still shocked.
	I've interviewed Dr. Moody.
	I've interviewed just about every important person in the field and nobody until you all have mentioned Drug X and a chemically induced NDE.
	Nobody.
	Are you surprised or do you just think that people wouldn't mention something like that on the radio?
	I'm not at all surprised about that, Art, and I'll tell you why.
	This is a difficult subject to talk about.
	I think any serious investigators of the near-death experience at some time have to face the fact that there is the existence of a drug, X, which seems to reproduce some of the aspects of a near-death experience.
	It's difficult to put on national radio a drug, X, which has the potential for abuse.
	I think it's something that we all kind of You know what?
	I'm not exactly sure that it goes... If a person made a personal decision to do this, I'm not sure I would respond by saying that person is irresponsible.
	to induce a near-death experience because it's really not that easy.
	You know what, I'm not exactly sure that it goes...
	If a person made a personal decision to do this, I'm not sure I would respond by saying that person is
	irresponsible.
	I would need to know a lot more about their thinking on the subject,
	but it wouldn't automatically indicate to me irresponsibility.
	This is...
	There is no greater question in my mind, and I think the minds of many out there, about whether or not there's something on the other side.
	And if there's a way to find out, then I'm not sure it's irresponsible.
	It certainly could be, but it would be on an individual basis.
	Okay.
	Well, let me address that.
	I agree with you.
	Well, since we're being honest, I'll tell you, if I thought that it would induce an NDE and I could do it with reasonable safety, I'd try it.
	Near Death Experience Research Foundation, which both me and Tricia are working very
	hard on.
	The question is, what is the best path to that truth and that understanding?
	Well, since we are being honest, I'll tell you, if I thought that it would induce an
	NDE and I could do it with reasonable safety, I'd try it.
	Okay, well that's heroic.
	You have the same...
	It's not heroic.
	...as Tricia does.
	However, Art, let me read to you, if I might, some writings about what the exact experience
	that you get with drug X is from people that have actually experienced it.
	I invite you and your listeners to compare and contrast this experience with the kind of near-death experiences that Tricia and I have been discussing previously.
	Fire away!
	Is this a good time for that?
	Yes, fire away!
	This is from the most credible source I can find.
	From people that have actually used this.
	And don't forget, this is an illegal substance.
	In some states.
	In some cases.
	This is illegal to be used for, if you will, a trip or a high.
	But here's the description of people that use it.
	You've heard near-death experiences.
	Now hear what happens when you take Drug X.
	Fragmentation will occur.
	The world will begin to spin, but it won't be dizzying.
	Music will become fragmented.
	Chaos will ensue.
	At some point you will find yourself completely removed from your surroundings and your body.
	Description of the experience varies substantially, but most include talk of alternate planes of existence, oneness, past and future revelations, and strange fabrics of sorts.
	That will be very difficult to communicate at this point.
	You probably will not be able to see or hear others that are around you.
	Some revelations will be extremely, quote, heavy, unquote, and some scary.
	Does this sound to you like the near-death experiences we've described previously?
	This is from the most credible users of this drug I could identify.
	Yeah, some of it does.
	Some does, but an awful lot of it doesn't.
	Well, some of it does, but I mean, you're talking about revelations?
	You're talking about knowing the future?
	Disassociation?
	Well, people who have NDE sure as hell get disassociated with them, don't they?
	Yeah, here's one final statistic.
	Nearly 100% of near-death experiencers believe in the reality of their experience.
	Among those that take drug X, about 30% believe in the reality of their experience.
	I see.
	There is a difference.
	I think there's some similarities, and I agree with you, Art.
	I'm very open-minded about this.
	I think it's interesting.
	I think it's intriguing.
	I'm very interested, and I guess I come to you saying that I don't know if Drug X is the path to near-death experiences.
	Or not.
	I'd say there's some similarities, and there's certainly some dissimilarities.
	Certainly some more research under carefully controlled circumstances would be appropriate, and that's not going to come from people that acquire Drug X illicitly.
	And use it for recreational purposes.
	Alright, it's going to have to come through a controlled experiment.
	Absolutely.
	I think that would be the only credible source and I would preface the... Alright, but you would like to do this study, wouldn't you?
	I would be intrigued by it, absolutely.
	Okay.
	Alright, next question for both of you.
	Either one or both can answer.
	On this program, we've dealt extensively With OBEs, out-of-body experiences, what is the difference, if any, between an OBE and an NDE?
	Okay, I'll start with that one.
	The best thing I can say is that an OBE, actually OBE standing for out-of-the-body experience, is a necessary part of the NDE.
	You do not have to have an NDE in order to have an OBE, as you well know, because you had one recently, right?
	Yeah, I had a whopper and I will briefly describe it, but is there a difference and or are they the same thing?
	To the degree that you have to separate your consciousness from your body, your soul separates from the body.
	That is the absolute first step in both an MDE and an OBE.
	All right.
	And after you have the OBE first and foremost, because obviously you cannot leave that body down in the morgue, for example, the way that Daniel Brinkley was, for example, and go and have all these experiences if you were actually, you know, and you can't come back with information and that kind of thing that he was able to do and other people were able to do exact information on things that They couldn't have known while in this unconscious state.
	But to the extent that you have a separation of the body and the spirit, that is both what's going on in an OBD and an ND.
	When you sleep at night, a lot of people, including my friend Albert, I do too.
	He's a very credible person, as you may know.
	I had dinner with him a while back and we discussed this.
	I consider Al to be probably the preeminent expert in this country on OBEs.
	Right.
	I do too.
	And he's a very credible person, as you may know.
	I had dinner with him a while back and we discussed this and he feels that a lot of
	people do this almost nightly, but we're just not aware of it.
	Well, I can only go by personal experience.
	And I can tell you that I, sure as hell, have never done it before.
	But when I was in Paris, France on vacation with my wife, I was lying in bed.
	I've had a gazillion flying dreams in my life.
	Not a gazillion lots.
	I know when I wake up and I've had a dream.
	No problem.
	No problem separating a dream from here I am awake and this is reality and that was a dream.
	But in Paris, I was lying in bed and Al Taylor and others, a million people have told me, I exaggerate with zeros always, That you have this buzzing sound and you perhaps feel paralyzed and then suddenly you move out of your body or, as you put it earlier, pop out of your body.
	Well, guess what?
	None of that happened to me.
	I was lying in bed and instantly, no warning whatsoever, no buzzing, no feeling of being paralyzed.
	I didn't just pop out of my body.
	An acceleration that I could not describe.
	I flew straight up out of my body.
	There was no warning.
	Straight up.
	I was way above Paris somewhere.
	And I was in... The only way I can describe... There really aren't good words for it.
	Except ecstasy.
	A feeling of overwhelming...
	Y'all love and peacefulness and joyfulness and just that was wonderful and it shocked me so terribly.
	Not in a bad way, but it shocked me nevertheless.
	I mean, a shock to the system.
	I've never had anything like this happen.
	I sat back and immediately knew what had happened, and I woke my wife up, who's, you know, going, huh?
	And I'm going, my God, you wouldn't believe what just happened.
	And it was a very quick experience, but there was no question about what I experienced.
	So you weren't having a lucid dream then?
	Oh, no.
	No, this was a real thing.
	Did you get a chance to check out your body while you were in the open?
	No, no.
	I didn't see my own body.
	I do vaguely recall seeing Paris way below, and I didn't see it being a light, no tunnel, none of that.
	It was short, sweet, shocking, surprising, and almost indescribably Wonderful, and that's how I described it to my wife, and it's actually beyond all of that.
	There aren't words for it.
	I haven't found the words for it yet, so I don't know what I had.
	I don't know what it was.
	If I'm correct on this, Art, I remember when you interviewed Al Taylor.
	Yes.
	He said, why don't you try it?
	Yes.
	He said, oh, not me.
	That's right.
	I'm not going to do it.
	No way.
	That's right.
	That's right, and I've come to the stage before where I've felt the buzzing and I felt paralyzed, and it actually nauseates me.
	I may be such a control freak, I'm not sure, but I almost feel nauseated, and I snapped myself back right away.
	I hated it.
	Oh, that's too bad.
	But this one, none of that.
	No control, no warning.
	It just happened.
	It just happened.
	Would you say it's fair to say, Art, that an OBE cures an OBE disbelief?
	Uh, oh yes, uh, absolutely.
	An OBE, sure is an OBE.
	This week, you bet it does.
	So before you might have been skeptical, but now you are a firm believer.
	In OBEs, but, but then, and I'll pick up on that after the break here.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	Stand by, we'll be right back.
	This is Coaster Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Now again, here's Art.
	Once again, here I am.
	Good morning.
	We're going to begin taking calls shortly for Dr. Jet Long and Dr. Tricia McGill.
	Now listen to me.
	Now listen to me very closely.
	When you call, Even if you know what drug X is, don't name it.
	I repeat, do not name it.
	If you do, I'll blow you out of here like a bad wind.
	So that's the only caveat, as I invite you to call in.
	Don't name this drug, even if you know what it is.
	I certainly didn't.
	All of this is new to me, and I've been interviewing people on NDEs for years, and I sure have never heard of it.
	But apparently it's been around for years.
	So with that caveat, we're going to shortly open the lines.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	You two are back on the air again.
	How are you doing?
	You holding up okay?
	We're doing great.
	You think you're ready to ask or respond to some questions from the audience?
	We'd be very happy to.
	Just one question by fax before we proceed to that, and it is, Would you please ask the two doctors why there have been no high-profile studies done on NDEs by major medical associations or universities?
	Good question.
	Oh, I like that question a lot.
	You know, I think that's a very good question.
	I don't know.
	I think something, a phenomenon that is so significant that involves hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Americans and an even greater number of people around the world I think this is worthy of further study.
	That's why we've set up the Near Death Experience Research Foundation.
	We believe in this.
	We want to learn more about this.
	Obviously.
	Do you think there is a chance that serious funding for such a study could be forthcoming?
	That would be wonderful.
	At this point, our plans Do not involve applying for grants or any source of funding.
	This is something that we are doing because we are personally interested.
	We have very busy professional practices.
	I understand.
	In spite of all that, the issue of the near-death experience is important enough to us that we're simply willing to spend a lot of time and carry this out.
	Doctor, do you think that doctors and physicians like yourself spend a lot of time considering I think most physicians are like most anybody on the entire planet and I think we do spend some time considering what happens to us after we die.
	I think part of being human is to consider that very question.
	How do most physicians personally handle it?
	I think most physicians are like most anybody on the entire planet.
	I think we do spend some time considering what happens to us after we die.
	I think part of being human is to consider that very question.
	I think that's important to physicians.
	I think it's important to non-physicians and every listener you have tonight.
	Maybe more so with physicians simply because you know the rest of us are not faced with mortality and tend to sort of block out the whole concept of dying for the most part.
	We consider it every now and then but physicians have it in their face every day.
	I accept that.
	Every day I see patients that have advanced metastatic cancer and I don't think we're going to be able to cure them.
	And for this, I guess, maybe that's what's driven me to think more about this issue than a lot of other physicians and maybe more people, you know, maybe more than the average member of the public.
	I encounter this every day, people that are going to succumb from disease and I guess that's led me to think about this.
	Let me also add one other thing, if I might.
	Sure.
	I had lunch yesterday with Dr. Moody and several staff members of a hospice that's local here.
	It's called the Odyssey.
	Right.
	And every single one of the staff members that I interviewed, I took an opportunity after lunch to run around and talk to everybody.
	They were all 100% convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is survival of the human spirit after bodily death.
	They had all seen many cases of people who had What's called the near-death vision, where they suddenly perk up, sit up in bed, and say, Dad, or Grandpa, or Mom, or something along this line, and they light up.
	Doctors, has there ever been a survey of physicians with regard to belief in an afterlife?
	Forget the religious angle for a second, but has there ever been an official survey in a medical journal or anything?
	You know Art, if there has been, I don't know the results.
	That's a very good question.
	I know doctors have written books.
	There's lots of books out including of course Raymond Moody's books.
	He has now a new one coming out.
	He'll have five books in total.
	And there's Dr. Melvin Morse who did the NDEs with young children who were too young, you know, to have preconceived ideas of what religion or... Oh, I know that's fascinating, fascinating.
	But as far as a group of doctors getting together to do any kind of serious study, I'm not totally aware of anything like that.
	That's interesting because they've surveyed doctors on everything else under the sun.
	I'm surprised they would not have asked physicians.
	And I'm curious, Dr. Long, what you think the results of such a comprehensive survey of American physicians would be.
	What do you think the results would be?
	Well, I would extrapolate from Trish's comments, working with hospice workers, and hospice is a healthcare There's a mechanism whereby we care for the terminally ill patients, and so the greater the exposure to people that are actually dying and are near that time when they're going to die, the greater is their belief of a survival of the spirit beyond death.
	I think we doctors in some way are blessed with whatever our specialty is that we generally have exposure to people because they're unhealthy, because they need a physician's services, Some significant percentage of them are going to be facing death, and I think I would suspect that a survey would show, somewhat like the hospice workers, that there would be a higher than normal belief in the survival of the spirit beyond the death.
	Okay, then I've got a real zinger for the both of you, and either one of you can grab this.
	There is a man named Matthew Alper, who I had an opportunity to interview on my program, who wrote a book called The God Spot of the Brain and the Contention Basically, I'm going to give it to you very simply, is that no matter where you go in the world, find lost tribes in the Amazon jungle or wherever you want to go in the Philippines, tribes that have never touched civilization, all of them seem to worship something.
	And Mr. Alper's contention is that we are mortal beings with an incredible fear of death.
	A real serious fear of death, and that this might be for you, Tricia Moore, and that our minds, in order to compensate for that otherwise unmanageable fear, have a spot in the brain that demands belief in the afterlife, and that our brain, in effect, and this has been a matter of our development as a species, that our brain has concocted this God part of the brain, he calls it, to
	protect itself against this fear.
	Can you deal with that question, Dr. McGill? That's an absolutely interesting theory.
	I know. Very interesting theory.
	With probably pretty good psychological underpinnings.
	Yes.
	I think, back to one of the things that you first started the program with, was the question, isn't this one of the most important things that we could study?
	You bet it is, yes.
	One of the most important questions we could ask, and it absolutely is, and it goes back to why.
	Why is it so important?
	Because we have, as human beings, a consciousness which can perceive our own demise, in other Unlike an animal, at least we think that this is the way animals think.
	They don't worry about dying all the time.
	My cat does not walk around worrying about what's going to happen to it when it dies.
	At least we think it doesn't.
	We don't know for a fact why my cat is thinking half the time she's asleep.
	We just don't feel that animals like rabbits out in the forest are worried about necessarily dying.
	They may try to get away from that hawk, of course, but that's only after the hawk attacks.
	That's right.
	They don't spend a lot of time thinking about it.
	They don't contemplate it.
	At least that we know of.
	That's right.
	Well, we do, but we do.
	But the idea of a part of the brain being kind of a, what would you call it, a primeval Well, something that adapted as the ages went on in order to deal with the concept of death.
	Well, you know, that's an interesting possibility.
	The way I kind of look at a lot of this sort of possibility of brain chemicals and a part of the body actually being, or the brain rather, being identified as where an NDE takes place, I kind of I feel that if I can just, you know, say it out loud, God works in mysterious ways.
	I do believe in that, and I believe that if God created our brain, we have sort of a partnership in that, and He may have very well come up with a very true way for us to go to a different and very real plane of existence.
	First Time Callers, Area 702-727-1222.
	Ken, I hope you bleeped that, didn't you?
	Yeah.
	Okay, good.
	Just because a drug may open the door to an alternative plane or dimension... Drug X. Drug X, which really does exist, does that necessarily mean that God didn't sit there and have a hand in that?
	No, it doesn't.
	Is it possible that God is in partnership with the mind that he created?
	Of course it is.
	Yes, of course it is.
	I kind of look at this whole thing with Drug X as being, if somebody is going to call me later on and say, hey, if Drug X can do this, then that means that there is no such thing as God, there is no such thing as afterlife, there is no bigger plan, there is no hand in this thing, there is no orderly progression, and that our consciousness goes into oblivion after we have this little hallucination, if you will.
	I don't look at it that way.
	I have to admit my bias in that, and in that I do believe that it doesn't diminish the realness of the situation.
	Alright, but coming back to where I was, Dr. McGill, do you believe in evolution?
	Yes.
	Dr. Long, do you believe in evolution?
	Yes, I do.
	Alright.
	Evolution, if I understand it correctly, aside from bringing us from the cavemen, Despite the gaps that some argue would allow evolution to be called a science, but just a theory.
	As conditions have changed, for example, there's more ultraviolet radiation, so in some way our bodies adapt to that over a long period of time, or some other change, climatic, climate change, occurs and we adapt to it.
	The process of evolution Yes?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Then with death as a consistent thing that man has been able to consider since he's been able to consider, it is reasonable psychologically to conclude that our brains have adapted and created Matthew Alper's Godspot, the demand in belief in something in almost everybody, most people, very few atheists, to protect itself.
	Possibly.
	I mean, that's a complex issue.
	Yes, it is.
	You know, I guess evolution implies that if there's going to be a change, that it's going to result in some change that's going to enhance the survival of the species.
	And when we're talking about an evolution potentially leading to the development of some part of the brain which would allow a near-death experience as part of an evolutionary process, that's really not consistent.
	When you face a life-threatening event, the normal psychological reaction is fight or flight.
	There's a very strong nervous reaction, sweating, increased muscle tone, increased alertness.
	It is totally, if you will, the opposite of what's occurring with near-death experience.
	Dissociation, you know, peace, harmony.
	This is not fight or flight.
	What you described is exactly right.
	When I was in the Air Force in Amarillo, I had a A lump discovered in my left shoulder blade.
	And I worked in a hospital.
	I was a medic.
	And so I knew the doctors.
	You know, they were all friends.
	Air Force doctors are a different breed, believe me.
	Okay.
	And so I went in and I saw the doctors and said, oh boy, it's a big lump.
	We're going to have to operate.
	And so they did.
	And it was a big, long, protracted, horrible operation.
	And they took this out.
	Nothing but a, it turned out to be nothing but a fatty tumor.
	In those days, they had to send, I was at Amarillo Air Force Base, and I think they sent the tumor, I can't remember, I think the Lackland, or not Lackland, some other base, you know, for a biopsy.
	And I had to wait several days to find out.
	And he brought me in his office.
	And sat me down when he got the reports, stared at me stone cold and said, well, you've got about six months.
	No, you're kidding.
	Wow.
	Uh, no, I'm not kidding.
	And I experienced what you just described, uh, cold sweating, uh, a panic attack.
	I could have had a damn heart attack on the spot, you know?
	Oh, sure.
	In the meantime, uh, after this long, deadly silence, when the beads of sweat were forming on my forehead, he started cracking up.
	Before it was over, he was on the floor, this doctor, on the floor, rolling around, laughing, funniest thing he thought he'd ever done.
	Well, like you said, those doctors are different.
	That's very special.
	Unethical.
	Yeah, well, you know, when you work with them every day, I guess they have a different, they have different attitudes anyway.
	So, yes, I understand.
	Let's take a call or two.
	On our first time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, Mr. Bell and Doctors.
	Hi, where are you ma'am?
	This is Judy and I'm in Kansas City.
	Okay, Judy, you're going to have to yell at us a little bit.
	Do you have a question?
	Yes, I do.
	Fire away.
	I lost a daughter at 17 from cancer and she was treated for four years.
	She had Hodgkin's and she was misdiagnosed in Kansas City and all of her treatment took place at MD Anderson in Houston.
	Right.
	Actually, she had two experiences, if you have time to hear them.
	Well, that can be a long discussion.
	What is the point of the question?
	Well, I just wanted to ask between the two experiences, the difference.
	Because one experience she had, she was in the hospital and she had shingles and we were in a protective environment.
	And she told me that she had floated up above her body and she could look down and she could see me and she could see her body.
	Yes, and?
	And the next experience she had, she was in the hospital for the latter part of her life.
	It was in the last three months prior to her death.
	Sure.
	And she had to be hospitalized to adjust her PCA pump, which is the pump that's there in the small pump given to cancer patients to control the medication.
	Yes.
	My husband was at the hospital with her at the time, and I was speaking on the phone with him, and I heard this blood-curdling scream, and of course he dropped the phone, and I could hear people, you know, rushing around.
	Yeah.
	And she'd had a horrible pain in her chest.
	Yes.
	And so I went to the hospital the next day.
	Better hurry.
	Alright, and she told me that she had died.
	She said, Mother, I died.
	And she said I didn't want to tell Dad because I didn't want upsetting.
	And she said that Um, she just felt very peaceful when she died, but she told God that she couldn't go then.
	And, um, and I don't know what he said, but she came back into her body, but she told my sister that she told God that she couldn't go because her parents weren't ready yet.
	Alright, uh, so... It was so different after that.
	Alright, alright, one, alright, thank you.
	Uh, one sounds like, more like an O-B-E.
	Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
	And the other sounds more like an N-D-E.
	Yes, I, correct, I would agree.
	But she didn't really suggest other than the scream and the physical whatever happened that there was any negative spiritual event either time.
	What it sounds like to me is the OBE occurred in the first event because she was not in any real what I would call severe threat of bodily death or at least she did not herself to be in that threat.
	So that's an OBE.
	The second one sounds more like she had a full-blown NDE.
	At least she got to the part where she was talking to the being of light.
	So that is an NDE.
	I hope that clarifies that.
	Jeff, can you add anything?
	No, I agree with that.
	Although, by our definition of NDE, it's a lucid experience associated with consciousness
	apart from the body, associated with actual or threatened imminent death.
	You'd have to know more about that first experience to know if that met our definition.
	Alright, the two of you, we have one last hour.
	Are you capable of sticking around and answering questions?
	Well, I'm brain dead, but I will if you really want me to.
	We'll do our best.
	Yeah, I really want you to.
	Alright, then both of you stand by.
	There are going to be many people out there who are going to want copies of this program.
	To get a copy of this program, I'm getting so many inquiries, please call 1-800-917-4278.
	It's going to be a four-hour program.
	It's going to be a four-hour program.
	Again, it's 1-800-917-4278.
	And when I say ride, you know, hey, want to take a ride?
	I mean a real ride.
	I had a real short one, but boy, it was a real ride.
	Believe me.
	I'm not going to let you get away.
	Take the long way home.
	You never see what you want to see.
	She watches over me, a river flowing through the gathering It takes a long way to know, it takes a long way to know
	Or everything good you got in you.
	When you're up one day, you know what you need at home Oh, and you say that you're lonely, I bet you're lonely
	Then you watch things you think you do, do you say Oh, and you say that you're lonely, with a lonely heart
	Too drunk with art thou, in the kingdom of night From east of the Rockies, dial 1-800-825-5033.
	West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, 1-800-618-8255.
	Wyoming, Colorado and New Mexico 1-800-618-8255.
	First time callers may reach us at area code 702-727-1222.
	Do I scare you?
	I've had a number of, uh, faxes lately.
	card line at area code 702-727-1295. To recharge from outside the U.S., first dial your access
	number to the USA, then 800-893-0903. This is Coast to Coast AM from the Kingdom of My
	with Art Bell. Do I scare you? I've had a number of faxes lately, people saying, you
	know, you really scare me. You actually scare me.
	Are these subjects that scary for you all?
	I'm curious.
	I don't work and live in a scary world, and this doesn't scare me.
	But I can understand that it would... I guess it would scare a lot of people, wouldn't it?
	Anyway, my guests will be right back, and we're going to lay heavily into the phones this hour.
	Alright, back to my guest now, Dr. Jeff Long and Dr. Tricia McGill.
	Dr. Long is a radiation oncologist.
	Dr. Tricia McGill is a clinical psychologist.
	The subject is near-death.
	And I'm not sure near-death is an appropriate term exactly.
	And that's almost worth a little discussion on its own.
	I wanted to backtrack and provide closure for something.
	Dr. McGill, you said to me that are you now a believer in OBEs?
	I'm so glad you brought that up.
	And the answer is, oh, yes, I am.
	But you know what?
	I'm a stubborn sucker, and I have to sit here and still wonder, not having experienced an NDE, a near-death experience, I have to ask myself if what I experienced was not the product of a living mind.
	It was, and so I haven't answered the question to myself, you know, about existence after death by what I experienced.
	I believe that our brains have incredible power.
	Oh yeah, way more than we're even vaguely aware of.
	So a believer in what I've experienced, heck yeah!
	Does that cross over to creating a belief in existence after death?
	Let me say one thing, Art.
	I was trying to say this, but we cut the break.
	Sure.
	NDE experience cures NDE disbelief.
	Oh, I'm sure it does.
	Just as your OBE experience cured your OBE disbelief.
	So the people who've had these absolutely, without any doubt, know what they've had was a spiritual There is just no doubt in their mind.
	Unlike if they have a drug-induced hallucination, they don't come back with their life changed.
	They don't come back with knowledge that they didn't leave with.
	They didn't come back with things that can be verifiable.
	Well, usually they think they have come back with knowledge they didn't have before, but
	after about a day or so they realize that it was nonsense.
	Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
	So there is a difference.
	It's not an event where an NDE absolutely changes people's lives.
	They're never going to be the same.
	Look at Daniel Brinkley.
	I know.
	I mean, here was a guy who was an absolute hell-raiser and not a very nice person.
	Yeah, well, he still has aspects of his personality that I know Daniel.
	I can say this about him.
	He is a character beyond description.
	That's right.
	To love him is to love him.
	He is a genuinely entertaining, exceptionally charismatic, believable son.
	I asked him once, Daniel, what about all these earth changes that are predicted by people like Major Ed Daines and other remote viewers?
	Oh, go out and have a party.
	Throw a ball.
	I know, yeah, that's Daniel.
	Doesn't that sound like him?
	Yep.
	But there's the Dr. Hyde.
	Jekyll Hyde?
	You bet.
	That aspect of his personality to this day, and a lot of the public, you know, they don't see that.
	They don't see it on TV or on the radio, but I've discussed it with Daniel on the radio, and he immediately cops to it, and you know it's true.
	Yes, I do.
	All right, let's go to some more calls here.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi, where are you, sir?
	I'm in Minneapolis.
	Minneapolis, all right.
	Welcome.
	What's your first name?
	Craig.
	What can we help you with, Craig?
	Okay, I'll try to make this as quick as I can here.
	Basically, I'm first of all disappointed that you're not mentioning the name.
	All right, now if you push me into that, you'll get blown off the air.
	No, I'm not pushing.
	I'm just kind of disappointed.
	Well, be disappointed then.
	Okay.
	Second of all... Live with it.
	I'm actually kind of appalled of the humanocentric kind of attitude with the whole indie thing.
	Humanocentric?
	Well, when you mentioned, like, and this leads into my question, actually, is what I thought of it.
	When you mentioned Robert White.
	Yes.
	The monkey head transplant?
	Yep.
	Something Joseph Mangala would never even have dreamed of doing.
	But, since there's animals involved, everyone seems to be okay with it.
	Joseph Mangala would have dreamed of that.
	Eh, don't know about that.
	Maybe he just didn't think of it.
	But, I mean, that would have been down his alley.
	But, um, as an agnostic person, I'm wondering, okay, they mention the, um, The bishop who had what he considered a negative thing.
	That's right.
	He still saw the white light and all that.
	That's right.
	I'm wondering if, what I'm thinking Robert, white would go through if there is any God.
	If they have any, if the doctors have heard of any experiences of NDE, no white light, no nothing, just a pure descent into hell.
	Alright.
	Or what would be viewed by them as hell with No, no, no.
	That's a fine question, and there are two answers to it.
	One is, yes, there are reports.
	I think one of you said only one or two percent, something like that.
	Right.
	But there's a big factor here that has to be talked about, and that is that I would bet you 90% plus of those people who go to hell and back don't exactly come back and tell their family members about it, or a nurse, or a doctor, or anything else.
	That's just my opinion.
	That's probably likely, yes.
	Dr. Long?
	Yeah, I think that's true.
	It's a lot harder to talk about a negative experience, especially now that there's so much publicity about the positive aspects of NDE.
	I would quibble a little bit with your term of going to hell.
	I think these people have unpleasant or frightening experiences, but I don't know that it's hell and it might actually be very, very important for their spiritual development.
	But there are people that have reported virtual hell.
	A lot of people that talk about NDEs and all the rest of the spiritual thing don't like to talk about this, do they?
	No, they really don't.
	And that includes you, doesn't it?
	Hell and Drug Hex, you're really going after us tonight, Art.
	Well, look, I'm trying to be honest.
	I interview a lot of people, not just you.
	This is common right across the whole NDE community.
	They don't want to talk.
	About the possibility of negativity.
	It's for some reason, and I can't quite understand why.
	I mean, if there are reports of this, then you should be as scientifically curious about this as you are the positive reports.
	Oh, I am.
	Oh, the Near-Death Experience Research Foundation that we're working on is absolutely interested in both positive and frightening NDE experiences.
	I think that's very important to learning Why do you think people in NDE study are reluctant to discuss that?
	much a real part of the spectrum of NDE experiences, even though they only occur, at least among
	reported experiences, 1-2% of the time, they're significant and they're real.
	Why do you think people in NDE study are reluctant to discuss that?
	Well, I think that it's not so much that people are reluctant to discuss it because I plan
	to have a, um, every single NDE report that comes to me or A lot of people think it's kind of a state of mind.
	get it up I plan to post it.
	So the way I look at it is we should post everything we have.
	Now I've read a lot of reports on hell.
	A lot of people think it's a kind of a state of mind.
	Other people I have read say that there are like two levels of hell.
	A friend of mine who is a psychic actually according to her went to hell, got permission
	actually to take a quick visit.
	She said it was a dreary place to be in.
	Like, just visiting jail and monopoly, you mean?
	Yeah, exactly.
	She got permission to visit briefly.
	Honestly, this is what she told me.
	Now, I'm not saying this is the truth, but I've heard this enough times that I have to say that maybe there's something to it.
	I don't know.
	I tell them it's a place devoid of love, interaction.
	People shuffle around with drooped, stooped posture.
	Actually, you know what?
	That's the best explanation I've heard yet.
	A place devoid of love.
	A place devoid of compassion, love, interaction.
	They walk around dejectedly with their heads down in a lost and confused state.
	Like in that made-for-TV movie called America with a K.
	You remember that, when we were all suddenly slaves and everybody was wearing brown drab
	clothing and they were all walking with their heads down and slaves to the new one world
	order or whatever it was.
	Well honestly I don't watch TV so I don't know but this is how she described it and other people have described it the same way.
	Now the good news is you can get out of hell.
	And how do you get out of hell?
	Would they get out of hell free card?
	You know, get out of jail free?
	Yeah.
	Do not pass go.
	Now, how can you be making this statement?
	You can get out of hell.
	How do you know you can get out of hell?
	I'm saying according to what I've read and I've heard and I've studied, okay?
	I can't even tell you because I'm so tired right now.
	Maybe if you can get out of hell, then you can get out of heaven and go to hell after you're up there.
	I never heard of that.
	I never heard of anybody that wanted to go to hell.
	But let me explain this to you.
	Briefly, based on everything I've been able to put together and believe me, I don't have all the answers.
	I don't even claim to have the answers.
	This is a work in progress.
	This is a study.
	This is something that we get one piece of the puzzle and then we find out there are four more pieces that we need to make a complete picture.
	So I'm not trying to say I've got all the answers and I'm not even sure what I'm telling the listening audience is 100% correct, but based on a few people that I have Well, several people that I've talked to and based on my friend who actually got permission to go to hell and come back with a report.
	It's this sort of a place and you can get out of it.
	Now here's how you get out of it according to everybody.
	you basically realize and you are willing to accept in all the various deepest levels
	of your mind and your being that you really didn't make a mess of your life and that you
	did not lead the right life and you get over this ego trip of being too good.
	In other words a Hitler type would get into hell and just stay there for a long time because
	he had such an enormous ego that he thought he was too good to say he screwed up.
	But that would imply that spiritual development continues after death.
	It does, absolutely.
	Oh my gosh, this is just the dress rehearsal.
	A lot of people refer to this though as school.
	This is, this is the dress rehearsal.
	And when you're out, not to mimic what the Heaven's Gate people said, but it's graduation time and you can't go back.
	You're saying you can go back, in effect.
	Well now, do you mean go back meaning go back to Earth or go back?
	Well, in other words, whatever happens or doesn't happen in your life happens while
	you are here and alive and you get a review of that when you pass on.
	True.
	And that there is no going back in the sense of correcting what you did that was wrong.
	Not in this earth life.
	After you die you can't come back and correct it.
	What you do though, and this is based again on everything I have been able to piece together
	after 20 years of studying this, is you do go on to higher forms of learning and you
	get the whole picture when you are in the afterlife.
	So we should think of it as post-graduate school, huh?
	Absolutely.
	Alright, Wild Card Line, you're on the air, hello.
	Hello, this is Steve from Cleveland, Ohio.
	Cleveland, okay, you're not very loud.
	You're going to have to yell into that phone for us.
	Okay, yeah, I wanted to talk about my OBE experience, and I had a question.
	Alright, fire away.
	Okay, yeah, my OBE experience is kind of like yours.
	I had no sleep paralysis or humming.
	I was just floating above the taupo poles in the trees.
	It was really cool.
	Did you have a question about it?
	Oh, yeah, I had a question.
	I had a bird's eye view and I had a question about that X drug.
	Yes.
	Would it have anything to do with a drug from Haiti?
	Look, I told you, and he said a drug from Haiti.
	Look, I'm telling this audience again, And, uh, I don't know how I can be any more specific.
	We're not going to play 20 questions about this drug.
	We're not going to tell you what the drug is.
	Don't ask us what the drug is, and don't play 20 questions, because you won't be around long if you do.
	We're not going to do that tonight.
	Period.
	Uh, West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hello?
	Hello.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	You're on the air.
	This is Kathy.
	I'm listening on KFYI in Phoenix, Arizona.
	Hi, Kathy.
	Two things.
	Number one, something just clicked with what you've been saying here.
	Many years ago, 41 years ago, I had an experience that I am suddenly coming to believe might have been an out-of-body experience.
	And it had nothing to do with sleep, but it had to do with the fact that I had drunk two shot glasses of whiskey.
	And the problem that happened then was that all of a sudden they put me down on a bed because I guess I'd bonked out or something.
	And when I was lying there on that bed, I could see everyone.
	I could see people walking around.
	I could hear voices.
	I was in another room.
	And yet everything was in black and white check.
	I couldn't tell who was who until I spoke, because everything, the tables, the chairs, the people, everything was in black and white checks.
	Okay, well, actually, you're just describing another chemical, another drug.
	That's what alcohol is, is a drug.
	Dr. Long, could conceivably you imagine that somebody would have Some kind of valid experience, not associated just with being drunk, but as a result of ingesting alcohol?
	I don't know much about this from personal experience, but I would imagine you could have some unusual experiences.
	What we've described as the near-death experiences, I think, is quite different from anything I've ever heard from people describing intoxication or heavy use of alcohol.
	I mean, it's a totally different thing.
	All right, let's see if we can fit one more in here.
	Good morning.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Where are you, please?
	I'm calling from Menlo Park, California.
	Menlo Park, all right.
	My battery's running low.
	I have two quick questions.
	The first question, is there an address Or a phone number where you can get in touch with the Near-Deaf Research Foundation.
	Yes, we can give you, uh, if you're ready to, can you write?
	I'm all ready.
	I wrote it down.
	It's N-D-E-R-F.
	Okay.
	That's, um, Near-Deaf, uh, Research Foundation actually is what it stands for.
	Near-Deaf Experience Foundation.
	N-D, right, E-R-F.
	Thank you.
	Appeal Box 36543.
	36543.
	3-6-5-4-3 3-6-5-4-3
	Las Vegas, Nevada Okay
	And the zip code is 89133.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	I'd be very interested in talking with him, and I won't take a lot of time on the air.
	I had an experience, a near-death experience when I was about 13, and it was very different from anything that I've heard discussed, and I've never really been able to talk with anyone that's had an experience.
	Okay, different in what respect?
	We don't have a lot of time.
	How different?
	Well, the end result was I was drowning.
	I was having a conversation and the end result of the conversation, I was told, you have to go back.
	I didn't want to go back to the surface.
	I was told I had to.
	It was not my time yet.
	And then there was a perception of this, and it may sound silly, but you have to remember I was 13, of this gigantic hand that just Push, lift me up very gently and push me to the surface.
	Oh, that's absolutely, that's an amazing story.
	I've heard that before.
	Hold on everybody, hold on.
	If you want to hold on, we'll be right back.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	♪♪♪ Glad you're along.
	My guests this morning are now open and running on automatic, which is the best way to happen.
	Dr. Long, Dr. Jeff Long, and Dr. Tricia McGill, a clinical psychologist.
	Dr. Long is an oncologist.
	We're talking about near death.
	And I guess a lot more.
	We'll get right back to them.
	All right.
	Back now to our guests, and they've hung on, Dr. Jeff Long and Dr. Tricia McGill.
	You're both back on the air.
	So is this young lady.
	Young lady, what is your first name again?
	I'm Sharon.
	Sharon, okay.
	Sharon, you were drowning.
	Yes.
	And you felt, you said, a hand Yes, it was incredible.
	There was a brief conversation telling me that I had to be realistic and understand that I wasn't breathing underwater, which I felt I was.
	And this conversation went back and forth, and I said, we have to get back up to the surface.
	I said, I don't want to go.
	I like it here.
	It's peaceful.
	And the conversation went back and forth for a short while, and then finally it said, you have to go back up.
	It's not your time yet.
	And with that, this perception of a large hand that came up and just kind of scooped me up very gently and started to push me towards the surface and I didn't want to go.
	So I kept trying to swim out of the hand and go back down in the water.
	You fought it?
	I fought it.
	Oh, that's very interesting.
	I just fought it.
	It was a very, I had been going through a great deal of trauma at the time and I had finally found some peace.
	Dr. McGill, have you heard stories like this before?
	Sharon, I got a chance to talk to her on the break a little bit, although we had to scream a lot.
	Yeah, there's been lots of cases.
	I don't even know where to start.
	There's so many cases of that, where people have been absolutely guided by some mysterious force, a hand, a gentle nudge.
	I myself was saved from imminent death in a horrible wreck by the most mysterious magic.
	Do I have time to talk about that?
	Okay, quickly, I was coming back from a ski trip with my husband, okay?
	I stopped in at Denny's, we had lunch.
	I left and just as I was pulling out of the Denny's I said, oh my gosh, I can't find my prescription sunglasses, I have to run back in and look for them.
	I looked everywhere, couldn't find them, jumped back in the car.
	That took about a total of four minutes.
	Right.
	That four minutes saved my life because just as we pulled around, you know where the Virgin River Gorge is, how narrow and twisty it is?
	Not specifically.
	Not really?
	Okay, it's coming back from Bryan Head, Utah towards Vegas, okay?
	Okay.
	Anyway, just as I pulled around the corner, I noticed there was this horrible wreck where two of those gigantic trucks that are like double, you know what I'm saying, double container trucks?
	Yes, all I know.
	Okay, they had crashed head on.
	If I had been four minutes earlier, I would have been right in the middle of it in a compact car and I would have died instantly.
	As it was, I was there on the site to send two dead people to the light because I sensed that they were confused and they were hanging around their bodies.
	I sent them both to the light, both dead drivers of the trucks, okay?
	This is my perception anyway.
	And then after clearing this The road, one was hauling lettuce, the other one cat food.
	After clearing that out of the way, my husband and I were the first ones to get through.
	I took a picture of this.
	As I was putting the camera back in my purse, guess what I saw?
	A what?
	The glasses that were missing from before.
	I'm sorry, the what?
	The glasses, the sunglasses.
	They were absolutely not in my purse, I swear to God.
	Where were they?
	They had been made invisible, I swear to you.
	They had been made invisible to me, and I had dumped everything out of my purse, and while I was back in Denny's restaurant, back in St.
	George... I'm confused.
	Where did you see the glasses when you finally saw them again?
	Where were they?
	In the purse that had been dumped and completely emptied of everything, looking for the green glasses.
	They were right there on top, Art, I swear to you.
	This is not a lie.
	I have witnesses to this.
	And there they were.
	They had been made You're a psychiatrist, right?
	purse so that I would have to spend four minutes going back into the Denny's
	restaurant to look for them. Now you're a psychiatrist right? Psychologist. Well
	psychologist. If you were to to lay this story out for a colleague, what do you
	think they would say when you when you when when you get to the part where the
	glasses had actually disappeared because you dumped it out?
	Yes.
	When you get to that part, what would another psychologist say to you?
	Well, it depends if they're an open-minded person.
	Let's say an average psychologist.
	The average psychologist would probably walk away with the feeling of, God, that was an interesting story, but, you know, I don't know what to make of it.
	I don't think, well I'm not sure about this, but I don't think the average psychologist would dismiss it right off hand and say, oh she's hallucinating.
	Alright, here is one more good question and then it's back to the phones.
	This is from Dennis in Chicago who says, Art, I don't believe there's ever going to be money granted for research in this area because it might take away the fear of dying and the fear of death.
	What's wrong with that?
	Well, listen to the final sentence.
	The fear of death is the way you control the masses.
	Now, that produced a nice silence.
	Well, you know what?
	I'm thinking of that, and honestly, who's using the fear of death to control it?
	Is it President Clinton?
	Oh, please, no.
	Is it the hospital?
	The doctor?
	No, half the time when you consider the whole Clinton thing, you want to die.
	No, it's religion.
	In other words, the fear Of the wrath of God, the fear of hell and brimstone, the fear of, let's face it, the fear of hell.
	Well now, some, I have to admit, some religions do still go back on that old fire and brimstone stuff.
	Yeah, and surely you've heard religion called the opiate of the masses.
	Of course.
	In fact, I'm the first one to say that organized religion has been a control But today I don't think the average person is totally controlled.
	Well, I may be speaking out of turn here.
	I don't think the majority of people... I think Dennis has a point.
	I think Dennis has a definite point, but I don't personally know anybody.
	Maybe I don't hang around with people that are controlled that easily, but I don't really think... A lot of control is very subtle and unconscious.
	Yeah.
	Oh, I know.
	The fear of death.
	Art, honestly, this is my opinion, and I know I'm tired, so I'm getting sloppy here.
	Well, we're getting better opinions when you're tired.
	I believe that all the references of reincarnation were deliberately taken out of the Bible.
	Oh!
	The reason that they were taken out of the Bible, in my humble opinion, and I could be wrong, is because of that very issue that Dennis mentioned, the spiritual issue.
	Thank you.
	That is true.
	I've had clerics on here who have fully admitted to me that, in fact, man made that decision.
	Man made the decision to take the references out to reincarnation.
	Exactly, because you know why?
	Some sort of committee decision.
	Right.
	The control is... That is his point.
	Yeah.
	But see, my issue with that is that I was thinking in my own current life, and those are the people I associate with, We are not held in any kind of grip by any organized religion.
	However, I do realize that some people are.
	Okay.
	And that's sad.
	Okay.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Where are you, please?
	I'm in Tucson, Arizona.
	Tucson.
	All right.
	Stay close to your phone and ask whatever you would like.
	Yes.
	I don't want to discount any of the OBE or religious aspects of the NDEs.
	I'm still very dubious to the idea that they relate to a consciousness that exists several days or more after a person dies.
	I mean, because isn't it very possible that some cognitive activity still exists in the brain, you know, even hours after death that couldn't be detected?
	I think so.
	I think so, but that's me.
	I've had my OBE, so I'm a believer.
	I haven't had an NDE.
	So, I don't know what happens after you die.
	I have hopes and wishes, but I sure as hell don't know.
	Well, I think, Art, there can be a consciousness after you clinically die, and I think if you have that consciousness, it's going to remain in the source of the consciousness, and that is the brain and in your physical body.
	The stories we've shared with you involve people who have very clearly seen and heard Well, you know what would really help me out a lot?
	What's that?
	their physical body is that were later verified by people.
	I agree, it's very impressive.
	It's not due to consciousness remaining in the body.
	Very impressive and believe me, I want to believe.
	These are not unique stories or rare stories.
	There have been thousands of these types of stories that occurred in the past and there's
	going to be thousands of stories like this that occur in the future.
	You know what would really help me out a lot?
	What's that?
	Somebody who's been dead for say a week came back and told these stories.
	Boy, I'll tell ya, my belief would be raised several notches.
	How about you, Caller?
	Well, see, I mean, I'm still stuck with that idea.
	Well, I just said, if somebody came back after a week Well, I think you're talking about something that would be miraculous in terms of the recovery of the physical body.
	That's very extraordinary and I've never heard of that.
	That's the whole point.
	That's the caller's point, I think, that we haven't had that happen yet.
	I think you're talking about something that would be miraculous in terms of the recovery
	of the physical body.
	I'm trying to distinguish that a little bit from an experience that seems to be more consciousness
	apart from the body.
	I'd be impressed, too, if someone was dead a week.
	Or one other possibility, communication from the other side that was somehow verified.
	Well, didn't you have a gentleman by the name of James Von Prague on?
	Oh, absolutely.
	James has been on several times, and I'm due to have him on again, yes.
	Good.
	I'm sorry I missed those, but... Yes, he says he talks to the dead.
	He's a medium that talks to the dead.
	I know.
	Have you ever heard of a gentleman by the name of Harold Sherman?
	The Dead Are Alive is the name of his book.
	No, but it sounds like somebody I'd love to interview.
	Well, I tell you what, he's rather hard to interview, but let me explain something really quick with you on him.
	He's done some marvelous things, if you can believe it, with simple tape recorders of communicating with the dead.
	I interviewed Mark Macy.
	Uh, Mark Macy and the Germans are doing a lot of work in this area.
	Do you know who else right here in our neighborhood is doing something?
	Who?
	That's Raymond Moody.
	Dr. Raymond Moody, the person that I am working with at this current time.
	Tell Dr. Moody to call... I have already.
	Alright.
	And he'll get to you.
	Let me just tell you a little bit about a psychomantium situation.
	Have you ever heard of that?
	Oh, of course.
	Dr. Moody?
	Those have been, I would say, the centerpiece discussion points with Dr. Moody.
	Psychomantium.
	Well, let me tell you, Jeff and I are planning to build one, and we're going to be doing some experiments with that to see just what comes through.
	Are you really?
	Yes, we are, and furthermore, if you would like, Art, after I have my experience with Yes.
	My controlled experience providing, I decide that it's safe.
	Yes.
	I would be happy to come back on the air and tell everybody with an unbiased opinion exactly what I experienced.
	I wouldn't pass it up for all the tea in China.
	Okay, we'll do it and I'll also explain what's going on with the psychomantum because we should have that up and around in about a month or two.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hello.
	Hi, where are you?
	Hi, Doreen from Vancouver.
	Vancouver, B.C., okay?
	Yeah, um, I had an accident when I was 14 or so, and I just wanted to quickly tell you what it was, and, um, because there was no tunnel, no light, and there was no hill, um, like you guys were talking about earlier, either.
	Was there just nothing?
	Well, I wanted to tell you quick what it was, and, um, I questioned your guests was if they've heard anything like this.
	Fire away.
	I fell, uh, 35, 40 feet.
	When I hit the ground, there was no break in my consciousness.
	I passed through it as though it was a curtain.
	And I was in a dark void, speckled with stars, like deep space or something.
	And I could see and think, but I couldn't hear or feel anything.
	And I was very calm.
	And I thought to myself, am I dead?
	You know, silly me, did I kill myself?
	And then I wondered where I was.
	And then these different shaped, colored light blobs, blobs of light, I don't know what they were, but I watched them for a few minutes, and then I looked up past them at the stars again, thinking, oh, man, where am I, you know?
	And one of the stars at that moment flared up really bright, and at the same time, the ceiling came back, and I was staring up into the face of my horse.
	I'd fallen from a very high barn, and the horse was standing over me going, my God, are you alive?
	I was wondering if anyone's ever, you know, like, where the heck was that?
	The only thing I could think of was, like, that reference, and I'm not religious at all, I'm not a Bible pounder, but, you know, do they say the valley of the shadow?
	I don't know.
	I think it was called the tunnel experience, the valley of the shadow of death, which is referred to, of course, in the Bible.
	Interesting.
	I don't know, really, where you were.
	But it's possible that you had an NDE because a lot of people experience total blackness
	in the very beginning.
	And that's not unusual.
	Now also, let me just say something about the little light that you saw.
	It could be that you were knocked somewhat unconscious and saw stars.
	That's the old version of...
	Right.
	I actually thought about that.
	It was a little...
	Yeah.
	You remember the old...
	The old saying, there's a light at the end of the tunnel, you might have just been knocked
	slightly unconscious for a short time and saw stars.
	But it's possible that you had an NDE to the degree that you went to this void and then
	the little stars are actually angelic figures.
	We are running out of time, but make it quick.
	Make it quick.
	Okay, this one is out of body and that one happened later in life, probably around, I don't know, 22 or so, and I was lying in bed, very relaxed, and I was waving my right hand in front of my face and just idly watching it go back and forth and when it flipped down to my right, And I followed it with my eyes.
	There was something really close by my face, and I nearly leaped out of my skin, thinking there was something on my pillow, and I looked at it and realized it was my right hand.
	And I thought, what the hell?
	Because I'm waving my right hand in front of my face.
	And I looked down my arm, and coming out of my elbow was another arm.
	And it was, um, it glowed as if from, like, an inner light, and I was moving it and going, holy God, you know, and when I saw it, I thought, Let me tell you, there is a photograph that's incredible.
	It's in the Time-Life book series.
	I don't know if anybody knows what I'm referring to.
	Very quickly, because we're running out of time.
	Yeah, there's actually a photograph of a body leaving a body.
	The astral body Oh, that I've got to see.
	I've got that.
	Do you have that photo?
	Would you send me a copy of that photo?
	I certainly will, Art.
	Can I just say one really quick thing?
	Alright, just one last thing.
	The modern version of the tunnel, by the way, is due to budgetary cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.
	Yeah, I've heard that one.
	The good news, there's good news and bad news.
	The bad news is we're all going to die.
	The good news is there is no death.
	So anybody who's had a fearful experience by listening to this, they should know that it's just the opposite.
	We do not go into oblivion.
	We are not extinguished.
	We do not just disappear.
	Our consciousness does live on.
	Alright.
	Again, the address, if you would like to relate an experience to these two, is NBERF.
	N-D-E-R-F, P.O.
	Box 36543.
	That's P.O.
	Box 36543, Las Vegas, Nevada, zip code 89133.
	That's 89133.
	Well, Dr. Long, Dr. McGill, thank you both.
	We'll do it again sometime.
	This has been absolutely riveting.
	That's 89133.
	Well, Dr. Long, Dr. McGill, thank you both.
	We'll do it again sometime.
	This has been absolutely riveting.
	And of course, Dr. McGill, after your experience, assuming all works out well, you'll be back
	on the air with us.
	Well, thank you.
	I'm going to go ahead and close the show.
	I'm going to close the show.
	Even if it doesn't work out as I expect it will, we'll be on because I want to share everything that I get out of our research with the public.
	Well, if it doesn't work out well, I may need a communicator to talk to you, but we'll get you one way or the other.
	A James Bond prog is usually available.
	Thank you, too, and good night.
	Okay, thank you for letting us be on.
	It's been a pleasure, Art.
	Good night, all.
	Have a great night.
	That's it.

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