Art Bell

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Aug. 16, 1998 - Art Bell

02:51:25

Dreamland with Art Bell - Barry Taff - Ghosts. LM Howe - Mass Deaths of Species, Colorado Sightings

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01:07:07

dr barry taff

51:49

linda moulton howe

11:41

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The news here, not with a news bulletin, just cause we can do it.
		Uh this is Art and uh we should be up on Broadcast.com.
		Good uh good afternoon everybody.
		We're about to do a program with Linda Moulton Howe and uh Dr. Barry Taff.
		Uh Dr. Taff, of course, the principal investigator in the entity case.
		He's an absolutely fascinating man.
		And we're going to be talking about ghosts, and you're going to be invited to call in on the usual numbers, usual call-in numbers.
		So to the worldwide broadcast.com audience, we'll be up and coming on the air in, oh, I don't know, about three minutes.
unidentified		94,200.
		Fresh air.
		It's wonderful.
		One of the nation's largest rail freight carriers is asking a judge in Philadelphia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's one more thing, everybody.
		We've got a new webcam up, new webcam software up.
		And so if you get an opportunity to take a look at the webcam software, you might let me know.
		But I'm judging it's easily twice as detailed as what we had previously.
		So that's the studio cam at my website, www.artbell.com.
		So that way, actually, if you've got a good computer, you can sit there and watch us do the show and listen to the show live at the same time.
		About two minutes from broadcast.
		Mark.
unidentified		In the meantime, a federal mediator is working with U.S. West and union negotiators in Denver to try and head off a strike of 33,000 telephone workers.
		And the world's longest yard sale goes on despite the deaths of two people along its route in Tennessee.
		This is USA Radio News.
		This morning, when I caught my reflection, I saw a great big imperfection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An ugly cold sore looked back at me.
unidentified		A pox of painful miseries.
		But then I heard there's something specific, made just for cold sores, and it's terrific.
		Stop staying fast, protects the sore.
		Ambersol Cold sore therapy.
		Who could ask for more?
		It's the only one with aloe and vitamin E. You love ambersol cold sore therapy.
		It is only as directed.
		And for babies' teething pain, try baby andesol.
		Fast relief and a grape taste.
		Baby's a love.
		If you drive a Nissan, listen up.
		USA's John Scott reports that Nissan has announced a voluntary safety recall.
		The recall is for all 1995, 96, 97, and some 98 Centra and 200SX vehicles.
		Nissan says the recall is designed to prevent windshield wiper failure.
		The automaker says on the affected Centras and 200SXs, water may enter a windshield wiper arm linkage ball joint and could result in gradual wear over a period of time inside that joint.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, confirming we are indeed on broadcast.com.
		I'm getting calls.
		Thank you all.
		Standby.
		Lyndon Molten Howe up first from Philadelphia, as usual.
		And then Dr. Barry Taff, who is probably the world's expert on ghosts.
		If there can be such a thing, an expert on ghosts.
		He's the one.
		Coming up on broadcast.
unidentified		Other accidents, homicide, and suicide.
		Heather Scott with news on the USA Radio Network.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience, not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not met, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
		This is Dreamland.
		It certainly is.
		And I'll say a good Sunday evening to all of you.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		As usual, in a moment, from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, our scientific reporter, I would say one of the world's foremost investigators into crop circles and animal mutilation.
		She has a couple of books out on the subject, other high strangeness, I think would be fair to say.
		She'll be here with a report, and I'll tell you, Thursday evening this last, there was a report on CNN confirming everything Linda Moltenhouse said about hysteria and the report she's had and validating every bit of it.
		Fishermen beginning to get very sick because of the fish they handle.
		They actually showed brain scans in which these fishermen had brains that were up to 70% in the photographs changed in one way or another from a normal brain.
		They couldn't remember things.
		This, folks, is from fish in our ocean.
		So we'll get to all of that.
		Not that today's report is oriented that way, but I wanted to validate what Linda Moltow has been reporting on.
		Finally, it makes the mainstream press.
		There is a product so good that we can barely keep it in stock.
		It's something new under the sun.
		Most of you probably don't know about light-emitting diodes, LEDs.
		They are remarkable devices, but they were always red.
		Then somebody here recently invented the white LED, and we now have the white LED flashlight.
		Flashlight, I said.
		It is the brightest long-life flashlight ever made.
		Three AA batteries, now brace yourself, are you sitting down, power this flashlight at full brightness for 50 hours, 50 hours straight.
		The almost bulletproof clear Lexan glass protects a nearly unbreakable triple white LED array.
		Actually, other flashlights are simply obsolete now.
		The body is ABS tough, very tough ABS plastic.
		The bulbs last up to 100,000 hours.
		It's kind of like going back to the old days.
		What lasts this long?
		Waterproof O-ring construction.
		I said waterproof.
		A very simple, durable twist-on-and-off situation.
		If you don't have one of these in your emergency kit, why?
		I don't know about you.
		And Christmas is eventually coming, so we've got a price for you.
		You buy one of these, and it's just $34.95.
		$34.95 by three.
		And the price then drops to $29.95 each.
		So tomorrow morning, call the Sea Crane Company and get one or three on the way.
		The number is 1-800-522-8863.
		1-800-522-8863.
		You won't believe it until you see it.
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		Well, let me tell you about a revolutionary fiber.
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		It's a natural fiber that comes from shellfish.
		It not only sweeps fat, but also absorbs up to 10 times more fat than other fibers.
		You can get this fiber in a formula called Kyto Slim.
		Kyto Slim is effective because you can lose weight without changing your eating habits.
		And there are no stimulants.
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		It's guaranteed to worker your money back, and it's not available in stores.
		So call 1-800-557-4627.
		That's 1-800-557-4627.
		You've got nothing to lose but the fact.
		Well, all right.
		Now from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, here is Linda Moulton Howe.
		Linda, welcome.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It must be hard for you to know what to report on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're having the crop season of all time over there in Great Britain.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It's extraordinary.
		I have dozens of these amazing formations that Peter Sorensen has been drawing on a daily basis and getting facts back to me.
		They are, without doubt, some of the most amazing and even another fractal kind of formation that has been repeated this summer, a variation on last year.
		And I'm so delighted to hear that CNN has put on a story that shows the work that Johns Hopkin and Duke University have done on the effects of the toxin that is released from the fisterial organism when it is in a particularly aggressive stage that does kill fish and as they attack the fish.
		And it's a plant-animal combination of a thing called a dinoflagellate.
		And we all need to be more aware of what is in our environment and what we're doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lynn, I'd like to congratulate you for being on this story just about a year before the mainstream press.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, in fact, I've been reporting about it for two years.
		And at last it seems like that political bodies are beginning to respond and fund changes.
		And in fact, my lead tonight is from the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences to popular newspapers such as USA Today, there are increasing headlines about the alarming disappearance of amphibians around the world.
		In the United States alone, it is now estimated that one-third of the toad, frog, and salamander population is gone.
unidentified		Wow.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		U.S. Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt recently told reporters that in a visit to Yosemite National Park in California, the night was so quiet and free of the amphibian croakings that should have been there that Babbitt wants to increase scientific monitoring of the animals.
		But scientists already know that Yosemite's amphibian population is in trouble.
		Recent headcounts were compared to studies made in the park back in 1915.
		Yosemite had 10 species of frogs and toads then.
		Today, three of those species have died out, and there has been a large decline in the remaining seven.
		Researchers this summer were also alerted to mass deaths of frogs in some Minnesota lakes.
		Viruses and fungus have been traced in some, but many scientists argue that the germs and the fungus would not normally kill the amphibians in such numbers.
		So something in the environment might be weakening their immune systems.
		Amphibians are especially susceptible to water and air pollution because they breathe through their skin.
		But another culprit in the decline and extinctions of amphibians could be increased ultraviolet B radiation from the sun.
		I've interviewed zoologist Andrew Blaustein from Oregon State University several times on Dreamland about his research that shows natural sunlight on the Cascade Lakes now literally kills amphibian eggs.
		He thinks the cause is increased UVB radiation produced when the protective ozone layer that surrounds our planet is destroyed by industrial chemical emissions.
		Increased UVB radiation has also been shown to weaken immune systems, and that might explain why some amphibians are now dying from viruses and fungi that normally would not be lethal.
		On top of ozone thinning, there is also the huge problem of water pollution.
		This past week, the Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper summarized a June 1998 report produced by the U.S. Geological Survey, which states that unsafe levels of radium, which can cause cancer, were found in one-third of 170 wells tested in southern New Jersey.
		Worse, in more heavily populated areas, 65% of the tested wells contain water that exceeded federal standards for radium.
		The Philadelphia Inquirer pointed out that, quote, radium is a known cause of bone and nasal cancers.
		It is especially dangerous to children who have developed bone tissue or have developing bone tissue.
		When a person ingests radium, the body interprets the radioactive element as calcium and deposits radium in bones, unquote.
		One area in New Jersey where children have cancers at a much higher rate than in other New Jersey cities is Palms River, and last year, health officials found unsafe levels of radium in Palms River drinking water.
		Further, the USGS report specifically linked how fertilizers and lime used on residential and agricultural land can increase radium in underground water.
		In fact, southern and central New Jersey's largest aquifer was documented in the USGS report as having widespread radium contamination throughout the aquifer.
		The USGS has also found unsafe levels of mercury in the aquifer.
		But incredibly, health officials throughout southern New Jersey say they were not told about this most recent USGS report about well water contamination and learned about it from the Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper story.
		Yeah, when hundreds of furious New Jersey residents and health officials started calling last week to find out why they had not been informed, the USGS sent copies of its report to New Jersey's Ocean County Health Department with a cover letter that the Philadelphia Inquirer reprinted, and part of it states, quote, inadvertently, county health departments were not included in a previous mailing of this fact sheet.
		As you may know, articles that discuss some of the USGS findings have been published in a local newspaper, meaning the Philadelphia Inquirer.
		We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you, unquote.
		The cover letter was signed by the chief of the Geohydrologic Studies Program of the USGS.
		And Art, this reminds me of North Carolina's dismissal of fee steria as a real problem in its estuary waters until media and public pressure forced federal and state officials to start dealing with the problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure this is overstating it, but geez, Linda, that sounds like a toxic cocktail.
unidentified		And they overlooked reporting it to the public.
unidentified		Well, it's almost like if we don't report it, it'll go away.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And of course, we know that's not true.
		And people and children and babies are drinking this water or were until this report.
		How do we make government officials accountable when everyone seems to be afraid of full and open disclosures about increasing environmental deterioration?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, when I was a child, I lived for quite a while in New Jersey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any way of knowing how long this has been going on?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		The study, the USGS study, has taken eight years.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So over eight years, they were getting measurements that they finally have put out in this report.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My God.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I know.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And how do we clean up huge underground aquifers that are contaminated with such terrible things as radium and mercury?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, now switching gears to unusual phenomena and unidentified sky objects, I talked this week to a minister and his mother who live in Los Alamos, Colorado.
		They described an object very reminiscent of other reports since the 1960s.
		Los Alamos is a rural town east of Pueblo in the southeastern corner of Colorado.
		About 50 miles southwest of Los Alamos is Pinyon Canyon, a large U.S. Army training facility.
		And further west of Pinyon Canyon are the Sangre de Cristo Mountains and Alamosa County, where the unusual death of a horse named Lady made international headlines in September of 1967.
		31 years ago in that summer, Alamosa residents had reported seeing orange glowing lights in the night sky and strange aerial vehicles that move rapidly during the day.
		The owners of the dead horse were convinced that something from outer space killed Lady, and international headlines posed the question, did a UFO zap the Colorado horse, leaving it stripped of flesh from the neck up?
		When I produced my documentary film, A Strange Harvest, about the animal mutilation mystery, ranchers and law enforcement told me that when the orange glowing spheres showed up, they found dead animals missing an ear, eye, jaw flesh, tongue, genitals, and rectal tissue, all bloodless with no tracks around.
		Periodically over the years, people have continued to report seeing orange-colored spheres in southern Colorado.
		And now Larry Riesel, a Los Angeles minister, and his mother, Nona, say that on August 12, 1998, they both watched an odd-looking orange light larger than the background stars rise above a mesa and disappear to rise again and disappear repeatedly.
		First, Larry Riesel and then his mother, Nona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, now this is a minister you're going to hear from.
unidentified		Well, as we're sitting there facing to the west, it would be more to our southwest, probably about 10 to 15 miles away from us, we watched this orange object come up over these bluffs, these mesas, probably about 50 feet above these bluffs, and then wink out.
		And then again, about another 15 minutes, it did it again.
		And it would be, it would hang there stationary for a while.
		It was kind of, it looked like a molten orange liquid.
		And When it went down again, you could see an arc of orange light behind one of the mesas of the bluff.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And it just repeated this half a dozen times.
unidentified		Right, about the span of 40 minutes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And when you looked at this object through binoculars, what did you see?
unidentified		Nice, round, circular object, kind of a molten orange with a little bit of reddish color to it.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And when you say molten, I think of lava.
unidentified		Right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Do you mean that it had a kind of motion to it?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So that whatever the surface of this orange glowing was, it did appear to have some kind of flowing motion.
unidentified		Right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Which people have described in other sightings as well.
unidentified		It was a slow, like, you know, a lava lamp.
		No lava lamp.
		Well, it was so brilliant.
		And it just kind of looked like that, but it was quick.
		It was thick.
		I don't know how the whole, whatever that was, it was thick and very brilliant, orangey red.
		A very interesting thing because it was so thick.
		And then the light, when it went up the second or third time, it didn't make it, this is what I call it, but there was still a glow in the sky.
		And it just looked like it was having trouble getting airborne to me.
		And then suddenly...
		Then it was there.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It went up.
unidentified		Yeah, and how it got from zero, I mean, to that, of course, I don't know.
		It's just one of those strange things that we don't know anything about.
		And the orange object winks out, and the next thing I know, it's probably 20,000 feet in the air because it looks about the size to be a passenger jet, the light.
		And now it's two lights together, extremely bright, almost like two stars together, and it's wobbling back and forth.
		And we watch this for another 10 or 15 minutes or more, and it finally kind of disappears and winks out.
		But it went from that really round, circular light, and then it went from, what, 200 to 300 feet off the ground to around 20,000 feet without going in between.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, from your sky watches the last couple of years, what would be the other most astonishing thing you've seen?
unidentified		Same area, okay?
		You just have to see the area to know it's very remote.
		It was one of these orange globes that we see.
		Only it was, to me, it was not round.
		These orange globes that we see is still their problem around here.
		This was more oval shaped, and it wasn't as orangey.
		It was just a light, and it had no nothing.
		I mean, there was no things on it, you know, no lights or anything.
		It was just a glow.
		But the thing that what it looks like, these little twinkling lights just flew out of it, were coming out, and they were going in this direction, if I remember correctly.
		Okay, they came out, the south door, okay, we'll call it like the thing that had a door on it, came out of the south door, circled around, and went to the north.
		All these little lights, and I don't know how many, I didn't count them.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		But more than half a dozen?
unidentified		Oh, yeah, yeah.
unidentified		A lot, yeah.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And what happened to the orange glowing thing after the little twinkly lights?
unidentified		After a while it blinked out.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Have there been any reports of any unusual animal deaths?
unidentified		I talked to an auctioneer and a land broker.
		This has been a couple, oh, well, about a month ago, at an auction.
		And I had, we got to talking about Bible prophecy and some different things like that.
		And I asked him if anybody had talked to him about cattle mutilations.
		And he said some ranchers had talked to him about it, but he wouldn't give out any names or anything like that because no one wanted to talk about it.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Implied that there have been some.
unidentified		There had been along the Arkansas River here in the valley, somewhere between here and Fowler and the area.
		But he wouldn't elaborate on it.
		He just said, well, he said, you know, they just don't want to talk about it.
		He said, I'll just tell you that I have heard it.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And in Trinidad, Colorado, in the 1970s, a little further southwest of there, the chief investigator for the district attorney's office and a deputy both sat in a car and watched an orange light the size of the full moon split in two, each sphere racing off in opposite directions, then coming back together into one orange glowing sphere that moved down toward the ground and disappeared.
		At the same time, they were investigating dozens of animal mutilation cases.
		And if anyone listening has recently seen such orange spheres or knows about new animal mutilations, please fax me, Linda Howe, at 215 AREACODE 491-9842.
		That's AREACODE 215-491-9842.
		Or write to me at Post Office Box 300 in Jameson, J-A-M-I-S-O-N, Pennsylvania, zip code 1-8929.
		That's Post Office Box 300, Jameson PA, 1-8929.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Linda, we've only got a few seconds, and I know this is utterly unfair, but I mean, these are incredible, incredible Developments regarding these sightings in animal mutilations.
		After all these years, do you want to take a fast guess at what it is?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, in my work and in this newest book out, Glimpses of Other Realities, Volume 2, High Strangeness, that's Amazon.com, Barnes Noble, and bookstores, are some of the best military voices discussing not only who or what could be interacting with this planet, but even possibly why.
		It's a complicated one that in some instances appears to be extraterrestrial and may be defined as something else than others.
		That's why it's so complex.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		As always, wonderful.
		Thank you, Linda.
		If there are any developments during the week, we'll have you on.
		Otherwise, we'll see you on Dreamland next Sunday.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Great, Art.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, and good night.
		Linda Molten Howe, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
		Boy, that was some report.
		Coming up is Dr. Barry Chaff.
unidentified		We're going to be talking about ghosts.
		To talk with Art Bell on Dreamland from the Kingdom of Nigh.
		East of the Rockies, dial 1, 800-825-5033.
		West of the Rockies, 1-800-618-8255, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico.
		First-time callers may reach out at Area Code 702-727-1222.
		Or call Art on the Wildcard Line at Area Code 702-727-1295.
		Now again, here's Park Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		Boy, do you have a treat coming up?
		Probably the most interesting guest that I've ever had on the subject of ghosts and things that go bump in the night, and maybe sometimes during the day as well, is Dr. Barry Taft.
		He is a remarkable interview, and he'll be coming right up.
		Don't move.
		Well, now I've seen it all.
		You all know I've been raving about the amazing Snappy video snapshot from Play Incorporated.
		And many of you are already using Snappy to get incredible pictures into your PC will look.
		I've got some great news.
		The scientists at Play have invented a new version of Snappy.
unidentified		It's called 3.0 Deluxe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's got some breakthrough new features as well as a graphics studio full of professional software programs for painting, retouching, adding amazing special effects to your video pictures.
		As a matter of fact, this new Snappy gives you the same stunning still pictures from any Camcorder VCR or TV, plus now the ability to capture moving video clips.
		It even lets you add audio greetings and narration to your video pictures.
		And now you get all the software you need to make greeting cards, business presentations, calendars, school reports, even sending your pictures over the internet with a click of a single button.
		It is incredible.
		If you own a PC, you simply must have a Snappy.
		You can get your Snappy deluxe today at any computer store for just $139.95.
		And if you already own a Snappy, call Play for upgrade details at 1-888-888-PLAY, P-L-A-Y.
		See Snappy for yourself and discover the company behind this amazing technology.
		They're on the web now at www.play.com.
		That's P-L-A-Y.com.
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		Well, all right.
		I know that Dr. Taff was the principal investigator in what we know as the Entity case, a truly, truly frightening case of manifestation, I guess.
		Actually, attack, attack by some sort of manifestation would be more like it.
		The Good Doctor's book coming out is Aliens Above, Ghosts Below, Explorations of the Unknown.
		And there are so many of you on the web that if you go to the web, you will now find a link, Dr. Taff's name, and a link.
		And you can actually purchase on the net the book.
		You can read an excerpt from the book for free.
		And you can read about Dr. Taff.
		But this time, I think, we're going to let Dr. Taff.
		Dr. Taff, welcome to the program.
		It's a pleasure to be here.
		For some reason, your audio is down a little bit.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I guess because someone just trying to beep in, that's all.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		It'll click off in a second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but I mean the actual level of the audio is down.
		It was quite good a moment ago when I was talking to you on the phone, and now it's gone bad.
		I wonder what's happened.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Nothing's changed on this end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can't even hear you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you talking directly into the phone?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I'm talking in a regular phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'm going to try something here.
		Let me try and redo my side here and see what we get.
		All right, are you there?
		No, we still have a totally...
		No, normal phone.
		Oh, now it's okay.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		See, someone was beeping in, and when that sort of diminishes the quality on the line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		That's all it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll say it does.
		All right, what I would like you to do, if you would, is to tell us about yourself this time.
		Sort of your life story, including your professional career and how you got into all this.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, the reason I'm into this field, actually, my background is I've been a parapsychologist for, I've worked in this field for approximately 30 years.
		I worked out of UCLA's former parapsychology laboratory from 1969 through 1978 when it was formally terminated.
		I was working there as a research associate.
		I hold a doctorate in psychophysiology from UCLA.
		And during my 30 years, I've investigated more than 3,500 cases of ghosts, hauntings, poltergeists as such, conducted extensive studies in telepathy, precognition, and remote viewing.
		Some of the work I did was the, I guess you call it, the initial protocol development for what was now called remote viewing.
		This was done in the early 1970s, before SRI picked it up and the military took it over.
		I was also myself investigated as a psychic subject.
		This was published in a medical journal back 23 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now that's one I didn't know about.
unidentified		Right.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		It was called A Laboratory Investigation of Telepathy, the Study of the Psychic.
		That's what got me into all this.
		When I was growing up as a child, I was having a profound number of what called telepathic, clairvoyant, precognitive experiences, other body experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you that's really interesting, and this is a side of you I had no idea about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you describe what happened to you as a child?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, I thought everyone, I'll give you an example of a classic case regarding my background.
		I was 10 years old.
		You're in the fifth grade.
		I was playing handball or four square on the courtyard, whatever they call it.
		You bounce the ball from one little square to another with other kids.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And a little blonde girl was walking towards me, and suddenly in my mind's eye, I see a plastic bag on her side and a tube going into her body.
		Again, I didn't know what a colostomy was, but I saw this, and I'm going, why is this there?
		So, you know, being a 10-year-old child and not knowing any better, I walked up to her and asked her what it was.
		And she panicked and ran in and told the teacher, and they dragged her into the principal's office.
		This is an elementary school.
		And sure enough, she had a colostomy, and she was wearing a bag, but it was under her clothes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And I assumed everyone had these experiences.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I didn't think it was that unusual.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, of course that would be the case.
		In fact, for it to be otherwise would be suspect.
		In other words, anybody who had these what normal people would call powers would not be suspect of them at all until they suddenly realized, maybe in the principal's office, that this is not normal.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And then he began questioning me.
		He said, well, did I sneak in the girl's bathroom?
		Did I look up her dress?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		You know, the obvious.
		And I said, well, no, I just looked at her as she walked towards me, and I saw it.
		And he said, what do you mean you saw it?
		And I said, well, just like you have that inflamed appendix scar that never healed quite well.
		And that, like, he turned several shades of purple when it ended the conversation.
		And you know, I mean, I thought, I mean, other people don't have these experiences.
		Why don't they?
		And so what was normal for me at the time wasn't normal for my friends and my family.
		And I was curious, why was I having these experiences?
		What was different or unique about me?
		I mean, there was nothing physically different that I was aware of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that your first recollection?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or now that you think back past even that?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it precedes that by many years, but that was just a classic situation where I'd be around somebody and I know something about them or, you know, whatever.
		Another situation was someone in the school, this is again an elementary school, was stealing bicycles.
		And I just went up to this one person and I said, why are you doing it?
		And she finally broke down and admitted that her friends were stealing the bikes.
		So I just assumed this was normal, that you could just know or sense these things.
		And who knew in this back long, long, this was like 40 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, this leads to an obvious question, and that is, is it your view, your best guess, that you were born with this or that it developed in some way in your early years?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, probably a combination of both are.
		It's like my feeling about this aspect of the human condition is that it's sort of like we all have muscles, and yet we all drive cars, but most of us will never become a race driver because we lack the physical stamina, the endurance, the coordination, etc.
		Most of us may participate in some simple sport activity because we enjoy it, but few of us will ever become decassan champions.
		I think everyone has a little potential in them and it varies from person to person.
		Some, just like some people are born with a better physique, better vision than others, some people have an incredible inherent potential and if they receive the proper type of feedback, positive feedback and reinforcement to develop a learning paradigm within their own mind, they can substantially improve their ability.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but one would think based on what little you have told us that yours would have been squashed big time beginning in the principal's office.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, I tended not to listen to what other people said because I know what I experienced.
		So it's not like they said you couldn't have done it.
		They just thought that there was some alternative explanation for it.
		After these things happen hundreds, if not thousands of times, varying type of experiences in this area, you begin to either assume that you're having emotional problems, you're delusional, or something beyond the scope of our current understanding is occurring.
		And of course, I pick the latter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, delusional would be you're saying there's a bag on this girl.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And there isn't one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then there isn't one.
		Then you'd have to wonder about delusional.
		But when there is one, then even a ten-year-old mind has got to begin to conclude, why do I know this and everybody else does not?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And so I just, from that point on, I had a lot of friends, but they were kind of, they kept me at an arm's length because they were kind of frightened because I'd always come up with things that I shouldn't know or shouldn't have known or couldn't have known and, you know, trivial things, you know, as you're growing the minutiae of life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		But what happened was I was in, I think I was in Upper Division College, and I heard about Dr. Thela Moss at UCLA and tried to get hold of her.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Initially, I couldn't, but I met one of her.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What age were you now?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I was 20, I think 21.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so by this time you were really wanting to know what the hell was going on with your.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		It was probably the most predominant aspect of my life at that point.
		And there were aspects of it that were semi-controllable, meaning they were almost volitional.
		So I met a student, a graduate student who actually worked with Delma, M. Moss, and he introduced me to her, and she sat me down after I spoke a little bit about my background.
		And she just threw me her keys and said, psychometrize.
		Tell me what you can tell me.
		Now, I knew nothing about the woman other than the fact that she worked at UCLA, and they had a little lab going.
		And I proceeded to tell her things about herself.
		This just popped into my head.
		And apparently, much of it was accurate.
		Described some of her best friends, what they looked like, some of their medical problems, you know, whatever.
		And she was impressed.
		So I became a research assistant in the lab, and I became also a subject where she did a formal study on me, which was published in Behavioral Neuropsychiatry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Chaff, how could I, what is this like, our third or fourth interview maybe?
unidentified		Fourth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fourth interview.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How could I have interviewed you for four times and not known about all of this?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I guess we just jumped to more dramatic material.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is dramatic enough.
		In other words, this explains why you then went on to be at UCLA in parapsychology for all those years, and it explains everything.
		And somehow I missed it.
		Bad, bad me.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		If this had not been, if it had not been for my own personal experiences in this area, I don't think I ever would have gone into this because I'm very skeptical by nature and I'm more oriented towards science.
		So I would have been very dubious.
		All these experiences would have been extremely dubious to me.
		But since I've never used drugs and I don't abuse alcohol, if use it at all, as most of my friends did, we were growing up in that hippie era.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I guess for some reason my brain was attuned to this and I became sort of used to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so there it began.
		She tossed you the keys.
		You told her what you knew.
		And then what?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, then she said, you know, would they like to want to study on me, blah, blah, blah.
		And then she said, you want to work in the lab as a research assistant?
		I said, certainly, that, you know, sounds like it'd be fun.
		And, you know, you get to be different.
		You know, you've already learned some protocol in classes and in laboratories and college.
		And, you know, I was just about to enter graduate school.
		Well, I don't know, this was two years before I graduate school.
		This was 1969.
		So it was a very fortunate opportunity.
		And I think Dr. Moss looked at me as a psychic pet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A psychic pet?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Because there were certain things I could turn on.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		There were certain aspects of my abilities that seemed to be relatively reliable, as reliable as any of these things can be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In what areas mostly?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		The only thing I've been able to do that's consistent is diagnose people, which of course is illegal because I'm not a medical doctor.
		But I seem to be good at describing what's physically wrong with people.
		And I feel it as if I'm having the problem.
		It caused enormous difficulty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Question for you.
		Is this something that just is always present when you need somebody?
		Or do you call it up on demand or what?
		Both.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		It's, for example, I remember one instance I went to see a movie with some friends and sat down in the seats in the theater.
		And I started, and there was someone to my left, I don't know, a stranger sitting there.
		And I suddenly developed an acute pain in my left kidney.
		And it was killing me that I didn't have it before I sat down.
		And you know, I'm in good health.
		And I thought, this is odd.
		And I turned to the person and said, this is going to sound really weird, but do you have a weak or a painful left kidney?
		And she said, yeah, how did you know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Things like that.
		You go to a party, you meet someone, you shake his hand, and suddenly I grab my chest and I said, you have a romantic heart.
		You're having problems now.
		Yeah.
		I said, can you, you know, come out and just backed away?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I, you know, I would think that other people would be really, really, really uncomfortable.
		It would feel, for me, for example, if I were to shake your hand and you were to say, boy, how about that heart valve?
		I would be really uncomfortable in that situation.
		And I would imagine you didn't make a lot of close friends outside of the professional style.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		You know, more so along that line of thinking, I've scared off some of my best friends.
		When I was in early college, undergraduate college, my neighbor and I had traded off driving to school because we shared a lot of the classes and time schedules.
		So one day we're driving in his car, he had a Plymouth Barracuda, 68 Barracuda.
		And so we're driving, and suddenly, I said, stop the car.
		And he goes, why?
		I said, just stop.
		And he said, why?
		We'll be late.
		I said, look, we're going to get in an accident.
		A woman in a red 66 T-bird is going to T-bum us.
		And she's going to have beige interior.
		She's going to have black hair, you know, like in a beehive.
		This is, you know, in the 60s.
		And I said, your car is going to be pretty badly damaged.
		And he goes, are you out of your mind?
		And I said, just stop the car.
		Let's sit here and just veg out for 10 minutes or listen to the radio or go get something to drink, you know, get a nice tea or something.
		He wouldn't do it.
		So I buckled the old-fashioned shoulder belts they had then that weren't integrated into the seat belt.
		And within a few minutes, there was the accident.
		We were broadsided, and we weren't hurt, but the car was pretty damaged.
		And that was the end of our friendship.
		Right there.
unidentified		It was over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it was as described all the way?
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I mean, the car was a 66 red keyboard with the Beijing.
		There was a woman with the ratted beehive black hair.
		And he just looked at me like I was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He probably thought?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		That I made it happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He probably thought that you planned the damn thing.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I set it up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my goodness.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		That actually never entered his mind.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		All I ever got from him was that it scared him severely enough where he didn't want to be around somebody who was going to tell him things that were going to happen that he didn't know of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, I know a couple of, I know one person like yourself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's Daniel Brinkley.
unidentified		Oh, yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Daniel is a dear, dear friend of mine.
		But Daniel creeps me out every time I'm with him.
		Never fails, ever.
		When Daniel is talked about, he'll pick up a phone and call me, and he'll say, you're talking about me, huh?
		Danien will grab a piece of paper, and I really can't describe in what case this was, but I know personally this to be true.
		And he would be able to tell me who wrote it, what their motives were, what their house looks like, what was out in front of the house, what kind of car.
		It totally creeps me out.
		And Danion, if you're listening, buddy, I love you, but it does creep me out.
		And that's how a normal person, in quotes, I think reacts to this sort of thing.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I was in 1973, I was dating this really beautiful girl who I met in the lab.
		She came in to visit some friends, and we became real close.
		And at one point, I turned to her and I said, you know, you have a benign tumor in your left breast.
		She went, what?
		I said, don't worry, don't worry.
		It's benign.
		So she said, yeah, right.
		Well, she started working for a big company.
		They gave her a medical workup for the insurance physical.
		And they found it.
		They did a biopsy, and it was benign, but they still took it out.
		And she said, I can't take this.
		I said, didn't I be of service?
		That's not the point.
		I don't want somebody that can literally look through me like a plate class window.
		And she goes, I'm sorry, I can't live a normal life and be around someone that has x-ray vision, so to speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
		Now, can you describe how you, for example, a benign tumor in a breast, how would you, do you visualize that?
		Do you feel that?
		I can understand when there's pain, for example, that you would empathize and feel that pain.
		But with a benign tumor, how would you know?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I don't remember the precise details because it was 25 years ago, but I remember we were together and I suddenly had this feeling or sensation, the left pectoral area.
		And then I, I guess the best way to describe it is whatever I do when I look at people to initiate this process, it's sort of like a color CAT scan.
		I can't describe it in my mind.
		That's what it looks like.
		Like you're looking at an anatomy book and you slice the person open.
		You know, you've sectioned them.
		And in my mind, I see it.
		And what's intriguing, for example, is not long ago, I diagnosed this friend, and I told her she had some degenerative problems with the C4, 5, and 6 vertebrae.
		And I said, these aren't traumatic injuries.
		These are degenerative problems and describe bone spurs and the whole bit.
		And I just saw the scans.
		And they were exactly what I saw in my mind.
		So what is it I'm doing?
		And how do I do it?
		And if I knew that, you know, I don't know.
		I mean, I probably would be living it right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so now you began this odyssey at UCLA as sort of a, you said a pet psychic.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The house pet psychic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they do a lot of work and testing on you?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, there were two studies done, and I said one was done by Dr. Moss, which was published in a medical journal, which mostly dealt with telepathy.
		But within that telepathy, there was some clairvoyance sort of snuck in and some precognition snuck in.
		And that was the first hint to me, among many other things that developed in our early remote viewing development work, was that this phenomena, what we call telepathic or clairvoyance or precognition, are all different aspects of the same thing.
		It's all determined by where in time, space and time it appears to come from and where we are when we perceive it.
		So it's all very subjective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now the other side of this is, even though you might totally freak out friends, I would imagine that people who have an illness that is undiagnosed that they desperately need help with would come to somebody like you and beg you to try and help them.
		Has there been a lot of that?
		We're at a breakpoint here, so it's a quick answer I've got to give.
unidentified		They have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Stand by, Dr. Taff.
		Dr. Barry Taff, who was the principal investigator in the Entity case, is my guest.
		And boy, am I learning a lot about him I didn't know.
		Coming up on the top of the hour, I'm Mark Bell from an area near Dreamland.
		is Dreamland.
unidentified		The End
		The End
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, broadcast.com audience.
		We are in our break right now, and I think that just so there's something here, I'm going to bring up the newscast at the top of the hour.
		As you know, President Clinton Monday is going to go before a grand jury, and there no doubt is news of that.
		It's kind of an interesting story because they're trying to decide what he's going to say.
		Is he going to admit sexual contact with Monica Lewinsky, or is he going to not admit anything?
		And they're in the throes of that decision-making right now.
		Which is an interesting way to put it, if you think about it, because it's kind of like they're back there deciding.
		I know this probably isn't true, but they're back there deciding what quality of lie it will be or whether it shall be the truth.
		Anyway, his advisors are huddling with him on that question, and it almost does make it sound that way, doesn't it?
		As though they're deciding, well, are we going to lie our butts off or are we going to tell the truth?
		Anyway, all of that underway.
		So let's see what the news has to say.
		are listening to Dreamland.
unidentified		Dreamland And USA Radio Network News, this is Heather Scott.
		Secretary of State Madeline All Wright is denying reports the U.S. tried to block or delay surprise U.N. inspections of Iraqi weapons sites.
		Alright says the State Department fully supports the U.N.'s right to decide where, when, and how it conducts inspections.
		But Mark Fleisley with Republican National Committee says this is just another example of President Clinton's administration doing one thing and meaning another.
		He publicly rails against Saddam Hussein when he gets up and he speaks.
		And then his people down below him, like his top Secretary of State Department person, goes and does another thing and gives Saddam Hussein the green light.
		In other news, 11 southern and southwestern states hardest hit by the heat wave are getting $50 million in aid.
		President Clinton has asked Congress not to kill the low-income home energy assistance program that helped poor people beat the heat.
		We'll do what we can, but I hate to put anything else on your legislative plate, but I need you to help me get this WhiteHEAP program continued.
		It looks like extreme weather will intensify, not abate, and America needs to be there to help our most vulnerable citizens.
		In the meantime, the White House continues to dispute reports that President Clinton may admit to a limited physical encounter with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky.
		The Dow closed 34 points.
		This is USA Radio News.
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		Call 1-800-989-4200.
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		Six Americans and 12 other activists won't have to do hard labor in Asian nations formerly known as Burma.
		Your state's Connie Lawrence reports the government will deport the group instead.
		The White House is pleased the American students will be expelled from Burma or Myanmar.
		But White House spokesman Mike McCurry says the arrests should not have happened in the first place.
		The White House official says the situation points to the general lack of democracy and human rights in that country.
		The U.S. has been calling for improvement and greater liberty.
		Coming law on USA Radio News, the White House.
		Nearly 3,500 union maintenance workers for Conrell are on strike.
		Employees walked off the job over the use of outside contractors to construct railroad tracks in Marysville, Ohio.
		Conrell says the strike is illegal and is seeking a temporary restraining order against the striking workers.
		Conrell has 21,000 miles of tracks through 14 states.
		This is USA Radio News.
		I use Gold Bond to prevent heat rash and chafing of tight clothing.
		Jorge Silva of Gatorsburg, Maryland talks about Gold Bond medicated powder.
		In the summertime, I use double the amount of Gold Bond.
		It keeps you dry, keeps you cool.
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		Use only as directed.
		Chicago millionaire Steve Fawcett is halfway through his attempt to become the first person to serve the world non-stop in a hot air balloon.
		Fawcett is about 2,400 miles west of Australia.
		Alan Blount with Fawcett Mission Control says earlier the balloon had been blown off course.
		The team had asked Steve to climb to 28,000 feet to once again for the third time to test the higher altitude winds and see if he could get that shift to the right, which would take him east.
		He did that, and it was a little frightening because on the way up, he went through several altitude levels where he was actually tracking the wrong way towards the northwest.
		Wild says the flight is now back on track.
		The Immigration and Naturalization Service is offering a $5,000 reward for information about the person they believe led eight aliens across the border and abandoned without food or water.
		The aliens were found dead.
		Heather Scott with news on the USA Radio Network.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Those of you who are wanting to call, I anticipate over the bottom of the hour or a little bit taking calls.
		So good afternoon to everybody on broadcast.com.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		I'm Art Bell.
		To talk with Art Bell on Dreamland from the Kingdom of Nigh.
		From East of the Rockies, file 1-800-825-5033.
		West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico.
		1-800-618-8255.
		If you're a first-time caller to Dreamland, recharge at Area Code 702-727-1222.
		This is Dreamland with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is really an amazing thing that you can interview somebody as I have Dr. Taff, this being the fourth time, because he's such a fascinating person.
		And in the fourth interview, find out so much you didn't know about the man.
		Absolutely remarkable.
		Nothing short of remarkable.
		Dr. Taff will be right back.
		Boy, do I have an exciting ghost story for you.
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		Now, just imagine how useful that might be in any organization with a large number of like-configured PCs.
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		Well, all right, once again from Los Angeles, California, here is Dr. Barry Taff.
		Doctor, welcome back.
		Pleasure to be here.
		I'm just really puzzling about how I could not have known all this about you because you always came at this as an investigator, and that's all we've ever talked about, not the investigated.
		So it's remarkable.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		You know, it gives one a different perspective to be looking at it from both sides.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure does.
		All right.
		Well, you have not only before I even get into that, let me go back to the question that I just made you briefly answer.
		Have you done a lot of diagnosis of people that have come to you?
		I mean, have you had a or do you not, well, it's certainly public now, but I mean, have you not made that very public in the past or what?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I don't broadcast it because, first of all, I'm not a medical doctor, so you're not legally supposed to do this.
		But when I do do it, all I do is tell people, this is what I think is wrong with you.
		Go to your physician and have them do the proper workups to check it out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you find it to be a bothersome thing, people coming to you all the time?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		That's not that frequent, because the majority of the time people want resolution, or they want you to tell them what to do about it.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And not only can I not do that, but I wouldn't do it even if I could, because there's laws against that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet there are.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		But I've had enough success at doing it.
		In fact, one instance was particularly interesting some years ago.
		One called me, and I went out to see if I could be of help to her.
		And I'm doing my thing, and I said, there's nothing wrong with you.
		Why did you call me?
		I said, there's nothing wrong.
		And she said, oh, no, no, there is.
		And I said, excuse me, ma'am.
		But I said, I don't feel anything wrong with you.
		So finally, I said, look, you know, I don't want to waste your time.
		What's the problem?
		Well, I've got a pain in the first joint on the left index finger.
		I said, that's arthritis.
		I wouldn't even pick that up because it's so minor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a normal human condition with aging.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		It's not a pathology or dysfunction or a disease process.
		It's what happens, unfortunately, when we get older.
		And I said, that's why you called.
		And I said, it's unfortunate you're having the problem.
		But I said, I wouldn't pick that up.
		That's like saying I pick up the fact that we age.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course we age.
		All right.
		Well, then I can easily understand how you've moved into the area of investigation that you did.
		Now I really understand it.
		With regard to ghosts, one of my favorite subjects of all time, I mean, actually, we could discuss ghost telepathy, polar geyser UFOs, precognition, remote viewing.
		I'm beginning to get to the point where I'm almost ready to put all of these into the same bag, and that may be too simplistic, but I'm beginning to wonder if there is not some sort of single source that's behind all of this.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think what there may be from my own experiences and my research is that there seems to be other forces at work here in our domain, in our universe, in our world.
		Forces that are not necessarily electromagnetic or not gravitational or not, and certainly not nuclear as we know them.
		And these forces may be at the root of the paranormal and may also be the forces that UFOs may utilize to function and perform the miraculous events they do in our environment.
		And so when things appear and disappear, when things go through solid walls, when lights manifest unusual apparitions, we call that paranormal.
		It's a generic sort of buzzword.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's not paranormal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not normal to us.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		It's beyond the normal, so it's paranormal.
		And I think that there is a connection.
		There is a definite correlation between all these phenomena.
		And we've had numerous cases that began, as I said, as abductions and then had extensive paranormal fallout or began as a poltergeist manifestation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you move into whether it was the entity case or any other ghost or poltergeist case, and you move in as an investigator, do you find that your abilities aid you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would imagine the answer to that would be probably yes, but does it skew scientific objectivity?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I really am not interested in a subjective approach to this at all because it doesn't lend any more credible information to the, it doesn't add any more data to our base in the sense of psychics are great in the proper environment and the proper perspective, and their information could be very helpful in certain situations.
		But when you're investigating ghosts, even if you could confirm and validate what it is they're talking about, names, places, and dates, which of course can be done with enough research, that it could mean that they're just somehow, it's retrocognition.
		They're sensing the past.
		They're sensing it flairvoyantly at a distance.
		That doesn't prove they're in communication with whatever energy entity phenomena is there.
		And I'm more interested as a scientist to physically document the phenomena in terms of thermal imaging and optical imaging and microwave imaging and hardware.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's hard science.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Because otherwise, if it's reduced to subjective human experience, people are going to say, yeah, right.
		I really believe that some person claims he's talking to someone that's dead.
		Well, I can't see him.
		I can't hear him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And go to any psychiatric journal that's full of people who claim they're hearing voices in their head.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here is, in my opinion, the $64 million question, or maybe with inflation billion now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that is, do we continue to exist after physical death and in what form?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I think that's probably the greatest single question facing the human condition.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But with your area of investigation, you'd be better qualified to answer it than many, most.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes and no.
		Yes, from my own subjective experience and some of the research, no, because there's a lot of information available, but it isn't, unfortunately, hard objective information.
		Again, it's the anecdotal type.
		And no one has yet died, literally, and come back and describe something.
		And not enough people have had, well, perhaps fortunately, have not had that experience.
		But I believe, based on the experiences I've had and the research I've done, that whatever makes each of us unique unto ourselves in some form probably existed long before our bodies were around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not going to have heard of this, Doctor, and I'm only sorry now I didn't keep it.
		About a week ago, I had a report of some new drug that somebody has laid their hands on.
		It's rather underground at the moment.
		That claims to be able to produce clinical death and give you an NDE and just about guarantee you'll come back out of it again.
		Now, this was so unusual and revolutionary that I only think I mentioned it on one other show.
		Now, there are people who have had NDEs, near-death experiences.
		How much stock do you put in what people say about these NDEs?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, to me, the most significant aspect of a near-death experience is the out-of-body, not the tunnel of light and not seeing a being at the end of it, because there's so many interpretations of that.
		But what does impress me is when they apparently float up from their body and they're able to see and perceive and remember events happening at great distances from their body, which I myself have experienced when I was younger having out-of-body experiences.
		And it's very vivid, it's very clear, it's like you're there, but you're not physically.
		That to me suggests that consciousness at some level can separate itself, can dislocate itself from the body, and in some way manifest itself in a remote location, perceive information, and then bring it back to the body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but is this an ability that we have while we're alive and ends with physical death?
unidentified		That's $64 billion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got it.
		I was in Paris, France, recently.
		I had, in all my life, I've never had an OBE.
		I had a real beaut.
		None of the classic, it was while I was on vacation, none of the classic humming and buzzing and paralyzing, none of that.
		It was instant, in an instant, in just an instant, I accelerated straight up out of my body, up above Paris.
		And I don't even say that I physically was particularly aware of what was below me.
		I was in the most joyful, ecstatic condition a person, I mean, there aren't words to describe it.
		It so shocked me that I immediately, or at least I think immediately, time reference is very difficult, I slammed back into my body and I woke my wife up and I started to tell her about all of this.
unidentified		Honey, you wouldn't believe what just happened to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, she was really happy to be awakened for all that.
		But it was, I didn't expect it.
		I was out of my natural element.
		You know, when I'm here doing a show every day, I've got a very set routine.
		That was broken.
		I was in a different place.
		Maybe that had something to do with it.
		But there was no warning.
		There was nothing.
		Boom.
		It just happened.
		And there's no question about it.
		I've had flying dreams, and I know when I wake up there dreams, I knew what I just had.
		I was out of my body.
		What the hell happened to me?
		And better yet, where was I?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, the question is, even beyond that, Art, is what is it of us that externalizes itself from the body?
		What aspect, what part of consciousness, as if we know what consciousness is, but there's something that is not neurochemical or electrochemical that can, you know, I don't know, soul, spirit, whatever, I don't know, can leave the body and can transit and, you know, to virtually anywhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but the key thing, again, well, let's roll over it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have abilities and you've had them all your life, but you're alive now.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess the best way to describe it is when I was a young kid, I'd lay back in bed and think, gee, someday I'm going to get old like everyone else.
		Someday I'm going to die like everyone else.
		And I won't be here anymore.
		And I thought, what an unpleasant thought.
		I don't want to die.
		Who wants to die?
		But I thought, you know, not that long ago, I wasn't alive.
		And that didn't bother me.
		I'm not worried about that.
		I don't have any painful or disturbing memories or recall of not being physical.
		And based on that and based on my out-of-body experiences when I was younger and other experiences, I think it's basically existing in another domain, but you're not the way we are now, but you may carry part of what makes you with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how's this for a hard one to answer?
		If we, for the sake of a discussion, assume that there is nothing after physical death, that's it.
		Blank.
		As you pointed out, you don't recall anything before you were born.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Unless you have memories of being reincarnated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unless.
		But stick with me here.
		And so then, for the sake of the discussion, if it's an absolute blank after we're gone, then what the hell is the point of this?
		I mean, we're here for a cosmic blink.
		Suns are around for a medium amount of time.
		We're here for a cosmic blink of the eye.
		I mean, it's almost totally without reason and I'm searching for the right word here, meaning this short physical existence if there is not more to it than this.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		But of course, people, meaning us human beings, try to give reasons to everything.
		We think there was a reason and rhyme for everything that is.
		And it may just be that, you know, it may be as simple as the fact that we exist in different forms, but we change forms.
		In other words, energy, as we know it, conservation of energy, can't be created or destroyed.
		But it can change forms.
		From one like, you know, to potential to kinetic or something along those lines.
		I don't think it's as simple as that when your body stops, you physically die.
		But depending on who you are, the conditions under which you die, and perhaps some other variables may determine if part of your consciousness hangs around here and you start appearing as a ghost or an apparition or you transition to wherever it is we go when we leave this physical domain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So I'm wishing, hoping, even praying that there is an existence after the physical one because we're not here very long.
		So that leads us into ghosts as a primary area of investigation regarding whether or not there is an afterlife.
		Now you've done a Lot of investigation into ghosts.
		What have you concluded?
		What is a ghost?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, there's different categories.
		There is, when you deal with this type of phenomena, there is this category which suggests a haunting or a ghost, which in and of itself implies discarnate intelligence or disembodied intelligence or a consciousness or a soul that is incorporeal.
		And theoretically, that would imply survival at some level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Then there is the more down-to-earth, if we can call it that, end of this research, which says that the majority of this phenomenon, probably 98% or 99% of it, if not all of it, stems from the living human psyche, that virtually everything we're experiencing and investigating can be explained by some form of psychokinesis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, that's where I begin to get nervous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If that's true, it's a manifestation of the living, and then that leads one more toward the conclusion that there is nothing after death.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		But see, like the first chapter in my book, you know, Aliens Above, Ghosts Below, the first chapter is called A Haunting Thought.
		And what I try to do is basically break down these different categories.
		And my conclusion is that this phenomena is no more than the product of an unstable personality.
		It is indeed a haunting thought.
		That I think there is a small part of this phenomena, ghosts haunting the poltergeist, that clearly suggests and implies survival of consciousness.
		But the majority of cases that I've investigated and that I know other researchers have suggest that it's the product of a living human mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Manifestation of a human mind.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		That it's the product of a living human psyche.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		But we occasionally get those cases where to anyone, you know, anyone but a blind man, the evidence is all piled up on one end, and that is that something of someone is still hanging around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let's take those 90% and throw them away and talk about the 10%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In your opinion, if you document those 10%, how conclusive is the evidence?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll give you an example.
		One of the most of in my 30 years of work, the most spectacular case, Bangan, what I call the Mount Everest of my cases, took place in 1976 in the Hollywood Hills.
		We call it the Hollymont case.
		And this is in chapter one in my book.
		And what makes this case unique is that no one was living in the house while I was investigated initially.
		That no pubeth in adolescent children, no emotionally troubled or disturbed belts.
		And we found a body buried under the house in 1922.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're kind of leaping ahead to hearing the story.
		There were no adolescents living in the house.
		Was there anybody living in the house?
		Well, what happened?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		The story is really impressive.
		It's quite extraordinary.
		Go ahead.
		1976, a student at UCLA comes in our parapsychology lab, and he tells us of an incredible series of events that transpired at this house on Hollymont Drive in the Hollywood Hills.
		And he said that this woman walked in, and a throne chair flew across the room and pinned through the wall.
		A kettle came off the stove, flying through the air under its own power, dumped water over her head.
		That cabbage was flying around the house with a knife in it, chasing people.
		And I said, did you see this?
		He goes, yes, we were all there.
		I said, is there any way we can gain access to this house?
		He goes, of course, let me make some calls.
		Subsequently, we ended up at this house owned by a man named Don Jolly, who was a banker.
		And while the first night we were there, all hell broke loose.
		Things started flying around the house.
		Objects took off and flew at people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You saw this with me.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And at one point, we were standing in a pantry, and thousands of coins aborted from nowhere and started raining down from the ceiling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Seeing dropped.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Raining, just appearing like in the movie Poltergeist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thousands of what?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Thousands of coins, pennies, thousands, just falling, and they filled the floor up to maybe our ankles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Really.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And it was the most, I mean, just standing there, watch it raining pennies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pennies from heaven?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Right, exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was this, my God, I can barely imagine that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was this your first official investigation of this kind?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
		My first case actually was even more extraordinary.
		One of my first cases took place in 19...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And the people in the house were killed in a car accident.
		The neighbors didn't know that they were dead, but they kept seeing them taking up the garbage, doing the lawn.
		The relatives of the deceased people called us in, and while in the house we saw some things move around.
		The furniture was somehow manipulated in the environment without any physical, I guess, interdiction.
		But what was more remarkable is we were holding sort of a little sance in the house.
		This was in August of 1970.
		And we didn't know what the people that lived there looked like.
		We had no idea except they were elderly.
		And at one point, we heard some strange sounds.
		And I went into another part of the room to see what was going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold it right there.
		Good cliffhanger point, and we'll be right back to you.
		It's the bottom of the hour.
		Absolutely incredible.
		I'm Art Bell.
		is Dreamland.
		All right, and we're out.
		Hello, broadcast.com audience.
		Oh, man, what an incredible story.
		Absolutely incredible.
		I'm going to give you a slow version of the phone numbers now, and we're going to begin taking calls.
		So anybody who wants to call now is welcome to.
		The first time caller line is Area Code 702-727-1222.
		That's if you've never called before, obviously.
		The wildcard line is Area Code 702-727-1295.
		We have two toll-free lines: one for west of the Rockies, which is good in Canada and Mexico as well, at 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-8255, and east of the Rockies as well, at 1-800-825-5033.
		That's 1-800-825-5033.
		What a remarkable story.
		So anyway, those are the lines.
		You can begin calling now.
		Dr. Barry Taff is my guest, and we will resume the program, oh, I don't know, in about four minutes.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, it's alright again in the break.
		Buried in pennies, that is the most remarkable story that I think I've ever heard.
		I don't know.
		I'd become incontinent, I think.
		In other words, I'd wet my pants.
		I don't know why I'm talking about this right now, but I'm telling you, I wouldn't, how would the rest of you do psychologically if something like that happened to you?
		I think that you would have to be an investigator.
		You would have to be in the field.
		And if you were a casual presence, you happened to be in the house when that went on, you'd wet your pants, and then you'd run or something.
		I don't know how anybody could stay in place.
		coming on broadcast in about two minutes.
unidentified		Thank you.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, one more note: anybody wanting to ask a fax question, you can fax me at area code 702-727-8499.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fax questions at 702-727-8499.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		First time callers may reach Art at area code 702-727-1222 or call Art on the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's get to the right and we're going to finish up this story shortly.
		We are going to begin taking calls for Dr. T. Still stuck back in the pennies.
		And I'll kind of repeat what I told the broadcast.com audience during the break here in a moment.
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		I mean, it's just a blast.
		You go outside at night, and there's a whole different world underway.
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		That's really, really important.
		A lot of night vision has lousy plastic lenses.
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		All right, back now to Barry Taff, Dr. Barry Taff, who was at the UCLA Parapsychology Department 1969 through 1978 and really is a remarkable man.
		Dr. Taff, you're back on the air again.
		And we were right in the middle of a cliffhanger here.
unidentified		Right.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		This was, as I said, we were saying a case in the Hyde Park District, Inglewood, so to speak, 1970.
		While investigating the house, we were conducting a seance to see if we could make anything happen because we didn't feel like waiting for it indefinitely.
		And after the seance ended, I was meandering about the house, and suddenly there was a large man in there who was not part of our group.
		And he was tall, white-haired, stocky, wearing a khaki-colored shirt and print slacks.
		And literally, he starts attacking me, starts strangling me and choking me.
		And, you know, I'm not a very large man.
		He picked me up and throw me in the bathtub, jumped on top of me, started strangling me while he was going, get out of my house, get out.
		This is my house.
		So there were five other six other men there, and they attacked him, and they started hitting him, and they beat him off me to the floor.
unidentified		So in other words, this is a normal man until we saw a guy just started beating me up, attacking me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was he part of the group that was?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		No, he wasn't part of our group.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, how did this man appear?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		We just almost like he came in while we were in the other room and we just encountered him as he walked in from the door.
		But we didn't see him come in.
		We just saw him there.
		Oh, my.
		So we just assumed it was a neighbor or a prowler or God knows what.
		So meanwhile, he attacked me.
		They beat him off me.
		He's on the floor.
		And I get out.
		My neck's red.
		My shirt's torn.
		My jacket's torn.
		We see this older man just fade away, like in a movie, just dissolve.
		What's left is the man who brought us into the house.
		And he's taller and much younger.
		He was a cadet at the police academy at that time.
unidentified		And we just stood there like, what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And he came to, and he was bruised.
		He didn't remember anything that had happened.
		And we described what we had seen, and he was shocked.
		We helped him up to his feet.
		He excused himself, you know, and he went to the bedroom, pulled a picture out of his dead grandfather, who was the one that he told us was haunting the house, who up to that time we had never seen.
		And the picture he showed us was exactly what we saw attack me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, whether it was the first story you told about the pennies falling or the one you just now told, as I told my audience during the break, or some of my audience during the break, look, I'm really going to be honest with you, if one of those things happened to me, I'd wet my pants, I'd run, and I don't know when I'd stop.
		I mean, it would scare me so thoroughly, so profoundly, that I couldn't handle it.
		I don't know that I could handle it.
		And even an objective investigator like yourself, I mean, how do you handle that?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess it's the same mentality that goes along with I also race cars and I used to fly jets.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, when you're willing to get in a racetrack at 180 miles an hour and your life's on the line, if you make an error in judgment or someone else does, the car malfunctions, you die in an instant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		That to me is a lot more life-threatening than this type of investigation is.
		So maybe I'm a risk-taker.
		Maybe I'm just not worried about what-ifs.
		Maybe I think real-world potential harm has a great deal more fear for me than this fringe reality does.
		I don't know.
unidentified		It's just for some reason it just doesn't bother me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You call it fringe reality.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Because it's not part of most people's daily life.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		So it is a fringe reality for most people because they read about it, they hear about it, they see a special documentary, they see a movie, they listen to your show, they read books, but they don't necessarily have direct encounters with this as regularly as perhaps I or people I work with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's a Zinger for you.
		And then we're going to go to the phones.
		Do you think that there is more of this manifesting now, today, in 1998, than there was in 1980 or 70 or 60 or less?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		It's a real hard question to answer because, one, we have more people.
		More people would generally assume there'd be more encounters or experiences because there's a higher probability of it.
		Also, a lot of this is an extension of the human psyche.
		More people under more stress, under more duress, you're going to get more of it.
		Also, with more media in terms of TV, radio, books, magazines, the Internet, it's everywhere.
		So it's almost there's no way you couldn't run across it in today's world.
		So we may be more exposed to it, but there may not be more of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
		All right, let's intersperse a few calls here.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Barry Taff.
		Hi.
unidentified		How are you doing, Eric?
		My name's Eric.
		I'm in Milwaukee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Milwaukee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Eric.
unidentified		How are you?
		Well, you know, I guess I'd tend to agree with you.
		If that ever happened to me, I suppose I wet my pants, too.
		Probably the reason why I had to turn off your show the other night on the impending or possible impending nuclear holocaust, it scared the hell out of me.
		I couldn't even listen to it anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I know.
		It scared me, too.
		My own shows frequently do that.
unidentified		Yeah, that's the first time that's anyway.
		Question for Dr. Catch.
		Don't you think there would be hard empirical data at this point showing the presence of ghosts or phenomena of the such?
		Or don't we currently have the technology yet to detect it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's a really good question.
		So many years, so many cases.
		Where is the hard data?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's an excellent question, and there is a multifaceted answer.
		One is the phenomenon itself is transient, and it's extremely evasive.
		So that means you have to be in the right place at the right time with your instrumentation in the attempt to document it.
		And then, of course, whatever it is must in some way cooperate or be responsive to your attempts.
		Secondly, up until recently, we didn't have the technology and mass as we do today to document this.
		So it would be like the equivalent analogy or a good analogy would be that I go to an airport and planes crash.
		How often have we recorded the actual crash?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Almost never.
		Very occasionally.
		Maybe at an air show where everybody's got a camcorder focused on the...
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		That's about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise, no.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And today, with more people having camcorders, you know, video cameras, you're getting more UFO activity, whatever.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		But also, it should be understood that this phenomenon, the lights and the images displayed by this, the apparitions, for lack of a better term, are very...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		One other question.
unidentified		I mean, has it ever been thought that possibly these aren't dead roaming people, but just different dimensions?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		There's numerous theories about what we're dealing with.
		And the best way to describe it is we're measuring the effect of an unknown cause.
		We cause it.
		Sometimes we call it psychokinetic, depending on the environment.
		Sometimes we call it ghosts or hauntings.
		The bottom line is we don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Going back to the basis of the caller's question, though, maybe you could cite the best evidence we have, the best physical evidence that's been gathered in any case.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		The evidence wouldn't, if you took it to trial, for example, the Ennity case, and like the San Petro case, both of which are chronicled in my book, we have a vast amount of photographic and video evidence captured and documented on these cases.
		Yet if forced into court, these would be considered at best suggestive of a phenomenon we have yet to even understand.
		It does not prove ghosts exist, but it strongly suggests that there's something out there that can somehow affect our physical world and do physical things, some of which is producing lights.
		It's very rare to get an apparition on film or video.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, lights.
		What about actual temperature reduction recordings?
		What about audio recordings?
		What about magnetometer readings and microwave readings?
		And what do we know?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		These types of various types of physical parameters, like you said, the background, like the dielectric constant or thermal imaging or microwave or temperature, they're all inclusive in terms of this type of investigation.
		However, we don't know enough about why the ambience changes under these conditions to really understand what it is the phenomena represents.
		In other words, is the phenomena altering the environment or does the altering environment make the phenomena occur?
		We don't know what comes first, the chicken or the egg.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But there is a body of actual hard evidence, small albeit hard evidence.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		The evidence is there, but I should tell you and tell the caller that if forced into court, the evidence for UFOs would win a case.
		It's voluminous.
		The evidence for ghosts is much weaker, and it's more anecdotal and suggestive.
		The UFO evidence is kind of mind-boggling.
unidentified		I just can't imagine that if something very, and I don't mean to sound skeptical, but I can't imagine if there wasn't something compelling, it wouldn't be on ABC News and NBC News, and it wouldn't be splashed all over the tabloids.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're dead right, Colin.
unidentified		And that probably will happen.
		The first time somebody does record something like this, like a plane crash.
		But then again, you could go back to the Mexico City UFO sighting.
		How many times did people see it up here on the news?
		None that I know of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		None.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very, very few.
unidentified		Hundreds of thousands of people saw that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the science of written Lee Elders, we've seen them, but the good doctor is right.
		The amount of UFO evidence, if taken to court, or even better yet, a congressional hearing, would probably prevail, but not with regard to ghosts or not with regard to an afterlife.
		And if you want to know the truth, if I had one of the two questions that I would want to be answered more, that is to say the UFO question or the life after death question, I'm going for the life after death question every time.
		And here we have the least amount of evidence.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		But also it's the one that affects the human condition the most profoundly.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Because it tells us where we come from, where we're going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think would be the effect on the human condition, Doctor, if we had conclusive evidence that there was no existence after death?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you ever contemplated that?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Actually, more the inverse to the reverse of that.
		But I think if it was objectively established that when we died, that's it.
		We just rot in the grave and that's the end of it.
		I think what it would do would decimate religious and spiritual beliefs.
		But I think most people who adhere to a greater spiritual perspective wouldn't accept it too readily.
		And I don't think that's going to happen.
		I don't think in our lifetime, let's say in the next 50, 60 years, 70 years, there's going to be any hard data coming out one way or the other.
		And if there is any data at all, it will probably end up supporting the existence of another reality that sort of reinforces the notion that life exists once the body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hope and I pray that you are correct, but I must be absolutely honest with you and my audience, I don't know that to be the case.
		I don't know that to be the case.
		On the other hand, believe me, if I'd been in a room where pennies started to fall out of a ceiling until they got ankle deep, I'd feel very differently.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Barry Taff.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good evening, gentlemen.
unidentified		Pleasure to talk to you again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		And my name's Bill.
unidentified		I live outside of Cleveland, Ohio in Willowick on the lakefront.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I was going to have a question for Dr. Taff, but just may I support some comment you were just talking about life after death, if I may.
unidentified		I had, you know, I guess the experience of witnessing my mother passing on, who she'd been on life support for an undue amount of time while the courts were still trying to settle out when a person was legally dead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		But when they turned the machine off, I just had to share this with you.
		I was thinking about it as you're talking.
		Her body stopped breathing.
		Oh, I'd say, it's hard to imagine a moment like that.
		You can't gauge time.
		But I would guess at least a minute.
		And I kept watching the scope that had been measuring all the electrical impulses through her body.
		And I watched the wave get narrower and narrower and narrower.
		And then it just dawned on me.
		I thought she probably taught me the greatest lesson she'd ever taught me throughout my whole experience with her was, yes, there was an energy that went somewhere.
		You know, as Dr. Tess said, it can't change state, but it went somewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It went somewhere, yes.
unidentified		And I had to believe that was her.
		Alice could explain it.
		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll give you one story that I can't erase from my mind that was told to me recently.
		It was a caller, I think, or a faxer.
		But this person was with a relative like you were when they died.
		And in a sort of loving, final gesture, as that dying moment came, my caller threw their body over the body of the person who was at the moment of death.
		And they felt the person or the person's spirit pass right through them.
unidentified		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I can't get that out of my mind.
unidentified		Yeah, that is something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you ever heard of anything of that sort, Doctor?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		I've heard of it in many different accounts and books.
		People speak of it, yeah.
		I've also went into it in various investigations with people who describes situations similar to that.
unidentified		My question, if I was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Far away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Far away.
unidentified		This is something that happened to me personally, oh, gosh, a good 25 years ago.
		I was intense in my work as a project engineer, and I'd have occasion to get up in the middle of the night when I was having something trouble me, and I'd work it out, you know, and I was in intense specifications.
		It's probably why I'm recuperating from a heart attack right now.
		But anyways, we lived a little further west of where we're here now, but we're always, for some reason, lived on the lakeshore.
		And I was sitting in the dining room working out this situation, this one specification.
		I kept hearing these little voices going, you know, going in the background.
		And I said, that's the kids up again next door because they used to sleep out a lot.
		And then it occurred to me, well, it was well in the September and they couldn't be.
		So I get up and I walk to the back door in the window.
		We had like a porch that had butted our dining room there.
		And I look out, nobody's there.
		So I thought, well, maybe I'm hearing things.
		So I go back.
		I'm working.
		This is like 3.30 in the morning.
		I heard it again.
		I get up and I go and I look around.
		Okay, who's horsing around out there?
		Couldn't see anything.
		Finally went back to my work.
		I kept hearing it sporadically.
		I said, the hell with it.
		I'm just going to go on with my work.
		And I had occasion to travel a lot when we lived in that house.
		And my wife and even my kids used to come.
		They used to always hear the darnest things in this house.
		And it was in a well-developed area.
		It wasn't out in the middle of nowhere.
		And I didn't know how to ever classify that.
		I don't know if Dr. Taft ever heard of situations like that's fairly commonplace or is it a figment of a person's imagination or what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Voices like that actually have been, we've encountered people telling us anecdotes about that.
		And I've run into it personally myself in a number of cases.
		One of them I'll discuss a little later, where we heard them and we repeatedly tried to record them, which didn't succeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which would indicate, wouldn't it, that you're hearing them telepathically rather than vocally?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Not when three or four people independently of each other are hearing them.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		The chance of That being a group telepathic experience would be almost astronomical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		So, what it did was, when the recorders, voice-activated recorders were set up, the phenomena just wouldn't occur.
		When he turned them off, they would occur.
		So, again, indicating an intelligent response, almost an evasive response on the part of the phenomena.
		And this was another one of our cases that strongly suggested a haunting versus a poltergeist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My God, that must be frustrating for investigators.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Right, but it made up that this particular case, the phenomena compensated for that in other more blatant and aggressive ways.
		But those voices, we've went into them, we've heard them, we've in vain attempted to record them, and they've been reported to us by hundreds of people over the years.
		So this is not unusual.
		Although it helps if there's more than one person hearing the voice.
		A collective sighting or experience or independent corroboration really lends substantiation and objectivity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on one skill.
		You know, I interview an incredible man called Father Malachi Martin.
		Oh, I know who he is.
		Yeah, sure.
		Advisor to two popes and the quintessential exorcist.
		And he's been doing exorcisms for years.
		And there's no question in this man's mind.
		But he is convinced, Doctor, that it is a demonic.
		And when we come back, I see we're at the top of the hour already again.
		I would like to ask you whether you think there are demonic presences as well.
unidentified		So I will do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But again, straight into the area of do we exist?
		Is there an existence beyond physical life?
		Well, I'll tell you, it's the $64 billion question.
		What do you think?
		How many real atheists are there out there?
		I suspect, I'm not sure, but I suspect not too many real ones.
		I'm Art Bell and this is Dreamland.
		All right, hello there, Broadcast.com audience.
		Let me give you a rendition of the phone numbers again.
		I see we're getting an excellent response.
		Thank you all.
		But this is one wild show.
		How about the rest of you?
		You still a little shaky on whether there might be an existence after this life?
		I have to admit it.
		I really am.
		I'm shaky about it.
		I'm hopeful, and I pray about it.
		But I'm such a hands-on kind of person that I just don't know.
		I just don't know.
		How about you?
		And I know some of the response is going to be, oh, come on, Art.
		You have to have faith.
		And I don't know why I can't.
		Faith implies a leap beyond the available evidence to believe in something.
		And I'm not yet to that point.
		My fault.
		Anyway, listen, here are the phone numbers.
		If you want to be on after the news break, which I will bring up here in a moment.
		First-time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		Wildcard line, area code 702-727-1295.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		That's 1-800-825-5033 here or in Canada.
		And west of the Rockies, 1-800-618-8255.
		That's 1-800-618-8255.
		Let's see what's new in the world.
		And then it's back to Dr. Taff.
		This is Dreamland.
unidentified		USA Radio Network News.
		This is Russ Ross.
		Secretary of State Madeline Albright is heading to East Africa for the weekend.
		She'll visit the bombed-out U.S. Embassy sites in Nairobi and Da'es Salaam as a goodwill gesture that the U.S. remains on a friendly status with both countries.
		Meanwhile, the helicopter carrier, the USS Saipan, and a landing ship, the USS Tortuga, are steaming toward the Democratic Republic of Congo to be ready to evacuate Americans.
		The commander on that Saipan ship is Captain Dick Enderly.
		The primary means, because it's quickest, would be by a helicopter, but it varies from situation to situation.
		Accessibility to a suitable place to land landing craft would dictate whether or not we could use them.
		And the same would go for helicopters as well.
		And the power crisis in the Congo is escalating.
		The White House is denying the published report the U.S. tried to interfere with U.N. weapons inspections.
		The report says the U.S. sought to prevent U.N. arms inspections in Iraq.
		It says surprise visits to weapons sites were canceled after Secretary Albright argued the timing was wrong since the U.S. wished to avoid a new crisis with the Baghdad government.
		White House spokesman Mike McCary admits the U.S. government does consult with the U.N. monitors, but he says the U.S. has no authority over them and never ordered the inspectors to curtail their visits.
		Counting on USA Radio News, the White House.
		This is USA Radio News.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, this is William Shagner.
		Have you named your own price for airline tickets yet?
		You know, you can.
		Just use Priceline.
unidentified		You name your price and let the airlines pick the flights where they had empty seats.
		Priceline was the first time I used the internet for anything.
		I couldn't believe I named my own price for airline tickets, and it worked.
		Priceline has sold more than 25,000 tickets to people who name their own price.
		If you're not one of them, what are you waiting for?
		I need to know who guarantees my price would be accepted, but with Priceline, I got my price and I filled my price.
		You got to try Priceline.
		If you can't find a ticket at a price you can afford, you don't need to drive or stay home.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got nothing to lose by trying Priceline.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The service is free.
unidentified		At thepriceline.com website or call 1-800 Priceline.
		I was desperate.
		Didn't care what time of day I went.
		I just needed to get there at a price I could afford.
		25,000 people have already named their own price for airline tickets.
		You could be next.
		Come to Priceline.com and give it a try.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I told you Priceline was going to be big.
unidentified		President Clinton testifies Monday before the grand jury investigating his activities with a former White House intern.
		Sources at the White House say depending on how that testimony goes, the president will either make a national televised statement or a brief White House statement.
		In Bangkok, Thailand, New Jersey, Republican Congressman Chris Smith says the government of Myanmar, which is the former Burma, is releasing 17 young activists.
		Six of those are Americans, and he says Myanmar did get some bad publicity over this.
		It certainly brings a lot of floodlight of scrutiny to the Rangoon military government.
		The activists were handing out pro-democracy leaflets.
		Meanwhile, balloonist Steve Fawcett's hot air trip around the world is back on track.
		We're pretty close to an 090, which is due east.
		And so the maneuver did succeed.
		We're very happy with it.
		Alan Bond is Fawcett's Director of Mission Control.
		Fawcett's over the Indian Ocean.
		He hopes to hit Australia in a couple of days.
		This is USA Radio News.
		Hi, I'm David Oric, and I'm proud that over a million of my 8-pound Oric XL hotel vacuums are used around the world.
		What makes me really proud is that the Oryk XL Upright, all of its parts and pieces, are made in the good old USA.
		To try my American-made vacuum risk-free for 15 days, call 1-800-989-4200.
		1-800-989-4200.
		And if someone tries to tell you that American products are second best, they obviously haven't tried my Oric XL.
		Union maintenance workers for Conrail struck the railroad.
		3,400 walk off the job over the use of outside contractors.
		Conrail contends that strike is illegal and is now seeking a court order to end the walkout.
		The Producer Price Index suggests an increase of two-tenths of 1% since the ELATA is with standard for as DRI.
		It was another boring number.
		0.2% may seem high when you've seen minus 0.1 and 0, but most of that reflected an increase in auto prices, and that's simply an artifact of the fact that incentive programs and buyer loyalty discount coupons all expired at the end of June.
		Turning to Wall Street today, the Dow finished the week on the downside again, off 34.5 points to close at 84.25.
		Even decliners again led advancers in heavy trading.
		Russ Rossman on the USA Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I've got one line open and available, which is the east of the Rockies toll-free line at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		in about one minute.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		To talk with Art Bell on Dreamland from the Kingdom of Nigh.
		From East of the Rockies, Isle 1-800-825-5033.
		West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico.
		1-800-618-8255.
		If you're a first-time caller to Dreamland, reach Art at Area Code 702-727-1222.
		This is Dreamland with Art Ben.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, indeed.
		And my guest is Dr. Barry Taff, and we're talking about actually many things.
		His new book is Aliens Above, Ghosts Below, Explorations of the Unknown.
		We'll tell you how to get that, by the way, or when it's going to become available.
		Would love to hear from you.
		I've got a facts here, and I've got certainly a big question about things demonic.
		Now, as we were discussing just prior to the break, as you well know, if you're a listener of my show, I've had Father Malachi Martin on many times, and he's a pretty convincing guy when it comes to the fact that these are demonic presences.
		We'll get back to Dr. Taff in a moment.
		Most guys just don't get it.
		But the smart ones understand that females react in a very special, very emotional way to flowers.
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		Well, all right.
		Once again, Dr. Barry Chaff.
		Doctor, welcome back.
		All right.
		I know this is going to put you really on the spot, but as I said, I've interviewed Dr. Martin many times, Father Martin, and there is no doubt in his mind whatsoever about heaven and hell and God and Satan and demonic presence.
		Where does all that fit in, or does it fit in with what you know to be true or suspect to be true?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, as a researcher and as an investigator with a scientific orientation, our desire and intent is to try to document and learn something about the nature of the phenomenon.
		Not much is known about it.
		It's more speculative at this point.
		But if you come from a religious perspective, obviously, based on all the writings of the Bible, people, for millennia, have thought this to be demonic.
		Or some people suspected that to be.
		But basically, it's sort of like the three blind men holding the elephant, depending on what you perceive and what you're holding and how you interpret that.
		You call what you're experiencing something different.
		I don't even like to deal with the religious implications because it muddies the water.
		It's difficult enough trying to really establish a credible base of information regarding the phenomenon.
		When you bring in religious implications.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in other words, when you're taking the scientific approach, the religious angle muddies the water.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Oh, terribly so.
		It doesn't mean it doesn't have any merit.
		It just means that it just makes everything creates more noise than we currently need.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And I don't want the audience to take that the wrong way.
		You're listening to somebody coming at all of this from a very scientific perspective, and that's not putting down religion in any way, if I'm hearing this correctly.
		It's simply saying we can't mix it in with magnetometers and recorders and video camcorders and the rest of it, right?
unidentified		Right.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		It's the same thing as sort of like people long ago would say if man was meant to fly, he'd have wings.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		So don't develop aircraft and don't develop spacecraft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, look, let me go back.
		I've got a fax here from Kevin who asks about the pennies.
		I'm curious, too.
		We didn't really finish that.
		I mean, you said you were ankle deep in pennies that fell from the ceiling.
		He asks, what did they look like?
		Were they new?
		Were they dated?
		Did they all have the same date?
		Were they in circulation, old, dirty?
		What?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Pretty much a potpourri.
		Old, new, dirty, clean.
		They weren't out of circulation.
		They were pennies.
		We never could determine a source.
		But it didn't end with that.
		We had fire spontaneously break out in the house.
		We had a news crew from KTTV, which is now Fox.
		They were chased out of the house.
		This is the Hollymont case in chapter one of my book.
		They were chased out of the house by flying objects.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Chased out of the house.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Chased.
		In fact, an ice tray flew at them, a sack of napkins flew at them.
		When they ran out of the front of the house, Connie Fox, the newswoman, newscaster, there was a Z-shaped stairwell in front of the house, a big stairway.
		As she ran out of the house screaming, a book, a huge book, flew over the house, flapping its pages like wings.
		Followed her down the front of the house, making three distinct angled turns, meaning nine-degree turns that has followed her down the stairs and dropped to her feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holy moly.
		And she was hysterical.
		Well, I'd be catatonic.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And we tried to capture some of this, but our equipment was failing.
		The power on the block and the house was going out.
		The street lamp in front was blinking, and it wasn't even on at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you, I know there's something to this because I have talked with other professional camera crews with fresh betacam batteries in that just flat failed.
		And the minute they would go out of the house or out of the area, they function again in the area.
		They don't work at all.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And this is a lot of times in these investigating the course of these investigations, the phenomena just turns off your instrumentation to shut it down.
		But see, more miraculous than a turning off equipment is what we call a ports where objects will appear and disappear in front of you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And in the Hollyman case, I had just put a glass of iced tea down next to me on a cabinet on the sink.
		I put some lemon in it.
		I turned back from the refrigerator.
		It was gone.
		I found it through two locked doors two rooms away that I had locked.
unidentified		So that gets very interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've just got to really have big cojones to do this kind of thing.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Barry Taft.
		Hi there.
		Hi, Eric.
		Hi, Dr. Taft.
		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm calling outside of Wino, Nevada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I'm Ray.
		Doctor, I have a couple of questions for you.
		Our time is short here, but something that happened to me about five years ago, I was working at a youth camp on an Indian reservation here in Nevada.
		And I was Coming out of the camp one night to take one of the boys to the hospital near my community.
unidentified		On the way back, I see these faces.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, keep in mind, this is on Native American land.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see these faces.
unidentified		I'm looking at bushes, and all of a sudden, they turn into faces for what seemed like a split second and then just disappeared.
unidentified		Needless to say, I was quite beside myself, and I've checked, consulted with several different Native American, what they call medicine men, if you will.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And they just didn't seem to have the answer.
		I don't mind telling you, my story here, of course, is not as dramatic as yours, but it just scared me.
		Now, could this just be the reason?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I'm asking why.
unidentified		Why would they reveal themselves to me?
unidentified		Would there be just one reason or another?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, Doctor, let me back that up with something else regarding Native Americans.
		Denver International Airport was built over what a lot of Native Americans are claiming was sacred Native American territory, ground.
		And DIA has been absolutely plagued with some of the worst kind of troubles you can possibly imagine.
		And to this very day, they're having those troubles.
		So this man encountered what he thought were Native American spirits, ghosts, whatever you want to call them.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		It's not that uncommon, actually.
		I've heard many stories over the years of people, not quite identical to what this man has described, but similar in that they've had on Native American grounds, where they've had run-ins with something that really unnerved them.
		Sometimes glowing apparitions, sometimes full-bodied apparitions, sometimes faces.
		And the problem is it's really hard to know what it is you're dealing with because it's a subjective experience.
		You don't have a camera.
		There aren't a whole bunch of people observing the same thing at the same time.
		So we're left with, is it the environment that's affecting you, or is it some force in the environment that's trying to subtly communicate with you?
		No one knows.
		This is a real hard thing to pin down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this is a question that I frequently ask people like yourself.
		Do you anticipate, Doctor, that, number one, during our lifetimes, this question about life after death will be settled?
		Do you think that's possible?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Oh, unquestionably not.
		I think it's going to be.
		And I'll tell you that I would be surprised that if there are breakthroughs in this area, which is problematic at best, but if there were real breakthroughs, that information would probably be withheld or disseminated over a long period of time because it would be very shocking to a lot of people one way or the other.
		It's the same thing regarding if, let's say, the whole can of women as regarding the UFO phenomena was dumped in people's laps.
		I think it would be extremely destabilizing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Destabilizing culture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do too.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		People who are real content just to move along, live their lives, be happy, have food, have shelter, have friends, have family, experience love and rest and recreation.
		They don't need their lives disrupted and put into turmoil.
		And if you start contemplating other worlds that you have no control over, that makes life more difficult.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's go.
		East of the Rockies, you're on air with Dr. Barry Taff.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
		This is Mike in Edison, New Jersey.
		Usually listen to you over at WCTC in New Brunswick, first time on Broadcast.com.
		Pleasure to speak with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Glad to have you.
unidentified		Dr. Taff, somewhat along the lines of Art's First Caller, I'm very skeptical about ghosts.
		In particular, I usually hear about ghosts in the context of human apparitions.
		In your experience and work, have you ever encountered ghosts of animals or pets that you've done work with?
		And if so, under what circumstances?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a really, really, really good question.
		A really good question.
		Thank you, Caller.
		All right.
		Go ahead, Doctor.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		The first case I ever investigated, which of course is in the book, occurred 30 years ago, 1968.
		Pasadena, a very nice elderly couple, called me and came out there, and they described they had a phantom cat.
		Their cat died, and they were experiencing it.
		And of course, the most logical interpretation is they're morbidly depressed.
		They're missing the cat.
		They had it for many years.
		And they're hallucinating.
		But I'm interviewing them.
		They're describing their experiences.
		And I'm checking their background, their psychological and medical background.
		In the midst of this interview, something jumps on my lap.
		Now, I can't see it, but I can feel the pause, feel the claws, and it's kneading, pulling at my hands.
		And before I go to be able to touch it, it jumps off my lap onto the couch, and the couch depresses in response to it.
unidentified		But nothing was physically visible to the eye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That really happened, huh?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And I mean, I jumped because, you know, I didn't expect anything to occur.
		I'm interviewing these people.
		And that really drove a point home that something was occurring beyond these people's imagination.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		But the implication here is that animals have the same opportunity at some sort of, I'm not going to say afterlife, continued existence after physical death, some sort of opportunity, as do we, which implies, I mean, we call it a soul in human beings.
		What is it in a cat?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, why shouldn't there be a soul?
		They experience emotion.
		They have likes and dislikes.
		They have needs and wants.
		They have feelings.
		They may be not precisely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, it's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's true.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And they bond very strongly to their owners.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're talking here to a cat person.
		I've got three cats.
		So I'm also a cat lover.
		This one got to me a little bit.
		Oh, God, if I would have feel a cat jump in my lap.
		I know exactly what you mean by the needing motion.
		I just don't know how you Make it through life, Doctor?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I guess because if something isn't a direct or implied threat, it doesn't bother me.
		If something puts a gun to my head, I'm going to jump.
		If I see a knife coming at me, I'm going to run.
		If I see a car plunging towards me, I'm going to move.
		But these things, I'm not, well, except for one of the cases we discussed earlier, generally are not threatening.
		It's just that we don't know what it is, so we have a fight-or-flight response.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
		Now, things flying through the air, knives, that sort of thing, or a book chasing me, I just, I absolutely couldn't handle that.
		Would you say, again, this represents this kind of real physical manifestation that we're talking about here, represents, what, about 10% of the cases?
		Probably five.
		Five.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		The only reason is that I should preface this or clarify it.
		It's real rare to be in these environments when the phenomena transpires.
		Most of the time you go out, you interview the people, you do some background checking and questioning, and that's it.
		It's very uncommon to be there when the phenomenon occurs with skin, like being in an airport when a plane crashes.
		It's like astronomical.
		So we go in expecting nothing, and most of the time nothing happens.
		That doesn't mean there's nothing there.
		It doesn't mean something is there.
		It's just that we are not present with sufficient frequency to encounter the phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, followers of most mainstream religions, particularly at least in the West, would really bristle at even the mention of the possibility of animals having souls.
		And I'm not sure if you're aware, but there was a study done by a doctor.
		I had it posted on my website.
		Way back in the late 1800s, it was a good, sound, scientific study of people who were measured, actually put on scales at the moment of death, and at the exact instant of death, they lost three quarters of one ounce.
		Now, they did the same experiment with animals and noted no change.
		Now, of course, in 1998, you could never in a gazillion years do this kind of an experiment, a controlled experiment.
		I don't think you could politically get away with it.
		But there was that one well-documented experiment.
		I posted it up on the website.
		It had been myth, and then I finally found it.
		That would imply that there's an actual weight involved in whatever leaves us at the moment of death.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		But there's also an alternative explanation, which is a little more prosaic, and that is when the physical body dies, there are processes, ongoing processes, that cease, that terminate.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Some of these involve hydrostatic pressure, fluid balance, gases, and those collectively might constitute the loss you're describing, that's described in that study.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They might, but that was included in the study.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		In other words, I don't think they had the technology in those days to really deal with that adequately, which might be why.
		But also, animals being much smaller in their physical structure might have such a marginal or hard to measure.
		But again, with current technology and our greater understanding of physiology, both human and animal, we might be able to look at this data with a different perspective and get a greater insight on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was talking with one of my, I can't recall which guest now, and I related this recent out-of-body experience I had in Paris.
		And the guest told me, guess what?
		That's as dead as you're ever going to be.
unidentified		Now, do you buy into that?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't, does he mean dead in terms of when you die, that's it, and this is like more like an illusion?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I don't put it in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but when he said that's as dead as you're ever going to be, the ecstasy that I felt that I still can't properly describe in words, honestly, this incredible, wonderful feeling that I felt is as dead as I'm ever going to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, death will mimic or go beyond even that.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I sort of mostly concur with what you're saying.
		As I said, when I was younger, I had a large amount of autobiography experiences, and it was very pleasant once you overcome the shock of it, the almost trauma, tranquil experience, because you can pretty much go anywhere by sheer thought.
		And once you realize that you're not in any jeopardy, it's a very sort of, I guess, it's a profound altered state that makes you really ponder yourself and who you are and where you're going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, I know, I know.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		The whole thing is when you leave your body, what is it that leaves the body and what is it that precedes the information?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		That's what I want to know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And is it really, can we actually document that people leave their bodies?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		There does seem to be a body of evidence, Dr. Charles Tart at UC Davis, has done some of the most remarkable research strongly suggesting that something quasi-tangible can be detected by perhaps animals or instrumentation, and certainly that we can bring back objective information remote from our body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, look, there are so many guests I have on Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
		They have actually documented people who have left their bodies, gone to other states, seen things that have then been absolutely verified, that could not possibly have been known in any other way.
		I mean, there's a lot of documented evidence about this.
		But again, this is something that's done while we're alive.
		Right.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		But why wouldn't I should say the reason I agree with what you said earlier is that I believe that the out-of-body experience is probably as close as we can come conceptually to what it's like to not have our body anymore.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And there may be an analogy to death, but the only difference is that there's no body to come back to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, when we get back after the break, I'm going to ask you about your book.
		And Tell me, Doctor, do you think this is going to be your field of study for the rest of your life?
		Are you locked in now?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Oh, unquestionably.
		I mean, I could no more give this up than I could.
		I would willingly lose the rest of my hair.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hold on.
		We'll be back to you in a moment.
		From an area adjacent to an area called Dreamland, this is Dreamland.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Stay right where you are.
unidentified		Dreamland is a very small part of the Dreamland.
		Dreamland is a very small part of the Dreamland.
		Dreamland is a very small part of the Dreamland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, hello there, broadcast.com, listeners.
		You are more than invited to call us.
		The West of the Rockies line, if you want to pick up the phone and ask a question about a very wide area of inquiry, as you can see, we are having a very indeed wide area of inquiry.
		West of the Rockies, it is 1-800-618-8255.
		That's 1-800-618-8255.
		Or east of the Rockies, anywhere east of the Rockies, and this includes Canada as well, 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		And I would be particularly interested in any of you who have evidence or what you think is evidence of life after death, relatives who have died, that sort of thing.
		This is going to be an eternal, I don't know if I ought to use that word.
		Anyway, it's going to be an area of inquiry for me during the rest of my life on Earth.
		I guarantee that, as Dr. Taft just said.
		So any questions you have, we'd be glad to take your calls.
		And glad you're out there on broadcast.com.
		You can also catch us actually doing the show on the website on the studio cam, which I've got up right now.
		You're listening to Dreamland from Nevada.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		or call out on the wildcard line.
		at Area Code 702-727-1295.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am, and we will ask Dr. Taff in a moment about his book, and I've got several faxes here.
		One available line west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		And somebody is about to comment, you'll hear it in the facts, on the pet situation.
		That one absolutely, if you're a cat person, I'm sure that one blew you away.
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		All right, now back to Dr. Taft.
		Doctor, welcome back.
		Pleasure to be here.
		Here's somebody who expresses my feelings.
		Hello, Art.
		I hope you're feeling better.
		I am, thank you.
		In response to the pet ghost situation, I live in an old Victorian house in Alameda, California.
		I have several spirits with whom I coexist peacefully.
		One of my spirits is a main coon cat named Taylor.
		He lived here in the flesh until 94 when he died a few months before his owner, who passed away in June of 94.
		She's here, too.
		Her name is Sharon.
		Many times I've seen Taylor's huge, fluffy self, though somewhat transparent.
		He's also rubbed against my leg, and I have not only felt it, but seen my trouser leg move.
		I love my spirits, and they love me.
		They are very protective.
		Sandra in Alameda.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Certainly a fresh look and attitude towards this phenomena, that's for sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then one other.
		We talked earlier briefly about voice phenomena.
		And this question.
		I'm sure Dr. Taff must have some good stories about electronic voice phenomena.
		And could we hear one?
		Does he have any?
		I should have hit you with that in the break when you could have prepared it.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Not really.
		I know other people who are doing the work in it.
		I haven't followed it that closely.
		I've read books on the subject.
		I said I know some of the people doing the work in it.
		The best I could say is I think last time I was on your show, I played a tape of a man allegedly possessed.
		And what was unique about the utterances coming forth from his mouth was they were analyzed by several different facilities.
		And we were told that this was not a human or an animal.
		This was a machine because there were pure sine waves coming out of his mouth, which are impossible to achieve for anything with the larynx.
		So that made us wonder what's going on.
		So that's about as close as I've come to unusual sounds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you collect sounds from other people or do you only trust that which you have collected yourself?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Generally speaking, in terms of all data, I prefer to go with what I myself have recorded because especially when it comes to auditory things, there's so many variables and there's so many ways to misconstrue and misinterpret information.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I like it if it's my recorder or my instrument, my microphone, my tape.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where do I understand that?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Someone else, because you never know.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And there's all sorts of extraneous variables that can play havoc with what you're doing if you're not really careful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The other problem is we live in a day and age, and it is proven to me every day by these computer whizzes out there who send me photographs of myself with aliens and ghosts.
		And frankly, they're better than a lot of the purported true ghost photographs or alien photographs.
		And it's just so how can you trust any evidence?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		That's one of the real main gripes put forth by skeptics and debunkers.
		And it's a very good statement.
		However, the logic that just because we can fake something, therefore everything is fake, is faulty logic.
		That would say that, well, we can make a great movie about going to the moon, so I guess Apollo never had the Apollo program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, I'm glad you brought that up because several times, Doctor, I have put photographs up of things that I knew to be absolutely authentic, either because I took them myself or because they occurred to me.
		And I put them up, and even totally authentic things, you will get somebody who will say, I took out my Photoshop number six or whatever, and I went down to pixel number 597, and I saw a gray shaded area on the right, your photograph is a fake.
		Now, that comes even when the photographs are genuine.
		So we have this day and age where nothing is believed.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		I mean, there are people out there who say that you capture any anomalous luminous activity.
		And they say, well, obviously, it's computed CG or it's done with some type of optical printing process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		But again, it's faulty logic.
		I remember I met some people from Caltech JPL, very respected scientists.
		And we were talking, and they were extremely dubious about all this stuff, which is understandable.
		And they said that if they witnessed a huge table that get up and fly around the room, they know it didn't happen.
		It was either they were either hallucinating or there were magnets under the table or there were wires.
		But no, tables don't move.
		I said, even if you say, well, then if it wasn't wires or magnets or I wasn't hallucinating, then it wouldn't happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Your new book, I want to get that in before I somehow forget, because all of this is fascinating.
		Aliens Above, Ghosts Below, Explorations of the Unknown.
		When is the book, is it available now?
unidentified		Right.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		It's currently available for immediate download off the Internet.
		And the main site that's linked actually through your site is called www.netbooks.
		That's N-E-T-B-O-O-K-S dot com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, we've got that linked up now.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Right, and you can go through your site and go directly to NetBooks, and you can download the book instead of for $24 for $9.95.
		And it's got the photographs and the captioning, and it's got 15 chapters and an introduction, and it covers many of the cases we've talked of today in much greater depth.
		And in the other case, in fact, there's a lengthy discussion of the entity case far beyond what was originally published.
		I took the original article and updated it with a preface and an afterword.
		And about what happened to the woman afterward, all the rumors and speculation about who she was and everything, and why the movie didn't accurately reflect the book, and how the book didn't accurately reflect the reality.
		And so it's a much broader view of the case and gives a different perspective than has been really looked at before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Your background has been mainly in paranormal phenomena.
		What made you begin to examine the whole alien question all of a sudden?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, for one reason, probably back to the dawn of human civilization, most cultures have reported phenomena beyond just paranormal, but reported odd arrow forms.
		And these weren't meteorites or comets.
		These were objects that, for all intents and purposes, resemble modern UFOs.
		Goes back to pre-biblical times, actually.
		But beyond that, the amount of evidence that's been collected for the last half century and documented in books and periodicals and journals is awesome.
		But even more than that, as I said, many of our cases, we've had a plethora of cases that began as poltergeist manifestations and ended up as an abduction or CE3, or began as an abduction and ended up as a poltergeist case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I asked you earlier if you thought in our lifetimes we might break through the barrier of life and death, and you said no.
		What if I were to ask you, do you think in our lifetimes we will begin to get answers or get answers regarding all of these things that fly in our skies, abduct, make crop circles, whatever it is they're doing?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		I think we might, but it won't be at the behest of our government.
		I don't think our government's going to open up a can of worms and say, here, folks, we've been lying to you for half a century, and here's why.
		So just panic, and we'll sit back and watch.
		No, I don't think that's going to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Although, the government, I recall Hazel O'Leary walking out and saying we've been lying to you for half a century or near it, and that there were experiments where plutonium was intentionally given to people.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, an astounding revelation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Astounding.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		But I don't think these pale by comparison.
		You see, my attitude is this.
		Our government has only a couple of major concerns about the population.
unidentified		One is that they're governable.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		A panic-stricken, anxiety-ridden, you know, depressed, self-defeated population.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would not be governable.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And they would not write checks every April 15th.
		Because they wouldn't care.
		If we're not the supreme rulers on this world, why are they going to look up to the government and pay them their money every year?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, are you right about that?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Why would they elect officials if we are the result of someone else's experiments and these and our leaders cannot protect us, or our sky, assuming there's protection even needed, but cannot even safeguard us against invasion or lack of, I guess you'd say, yeah, invasion of strange aero forms.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, then why should we bother to pay the money every year?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, instead, we'd probably have to write out a check to the grays or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or somebody's going to charge us.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Or, and this goes back to the comments earlier, I think our religious institutions would face radical revision regarding if we're not made in God's image, if we're made in some reptilian humanoid somewhere, some light years away decided let's play with pre-humans on Earth and produce humans.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And this were revealed, if this were true, that wouldn't have a humbling effect on most people.
unidentified		No, no, it sure wouldn't.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And I get into this in the book in depth.
		In chapter 10, I go into this, but it's called UFOs the bottom line.
		I get into this in depth about what's going on.
		And basically, if you knew that the information you were going to disseminate to the people would devastate them and leave them self-negated, would you do it?
		What's the point?
		You're trying to keep the society functional and whole and integrated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're absolutely correct.
		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Taff and Art Bell.
		Hello there.
		Hello, Art?
		Yes.
unidentified		Yes, yes.
unidentified		I have five ghosts in my home.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have five ghosts?
unidentified		I have five of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm here in Farmington Hills, Michigan.
unidentified		I need to listen to you on audio, Net, because I can't stay up all night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fine.
unidentified		That's where we are.
unidentified		I have cats, and I lost five of them here in the last two years, four this year, and didn't have any...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do they do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, how do you know you've got?
unidentified		How do I know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Well, they're here.
		If I lay down on a couch, you'll jump and you'll hear them on the vinyl and they'll walk across it and they want to just sit down like they always did.
		Or at night, they'll come up and they'll pop up on the bed, and each one always used to have a place of its own.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, I know.
unidentified		And they'll come up and they'll knead right behind my head.
		And one of them last night, my favorite cat, I know it was her, laid right on my arm.
		You could feel the weight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
unidentified		It's amazing, and I'm real curious if I can somehow photograph them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, oh, what a good question.
unidentified		You know, and I've got one of these ViCams ordered for my computer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And it's got night vision.
unidentified		I'm just curious if the infrared might pick it up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a good scientifically based question.
		Doctor, what about that?
		I mean, if you've got an entity, human or animal, that is obviously present and you want to try to document this somehow, want to try to photograph, what would you try?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, you start with the greatest simplicity first.
		You might try simple Polaroids to see if anything shows up in those shots.
		You might try those new camcorders that have, like, I think it's called Night Spot or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's the new Sony camcorder that now they're claiming can see through clothing.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Which actually it can, by the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It can?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, basically you're in the, I think, the 7 to 10 micron region, and that can see thermal emission through clothes.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		So it's not like being Superman, but it's getting there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, CNN did a story on it.
		We're diverting here.
		CNN did a story on it last week, which said they tried under the brightest lights they could find, and they couldn't see through clothes.
		Nevertheless, Sony has announced they will ship no more of these cameras to the U.S., which is causing a run on the existing stock.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Also, the whole thing is you shouldn't shoot in light at all.
		You shoot in dim light or no light.
		That's when you get the best resolution.
		So they went in the wrong direction.
unidentified		But if they answer the caller's question, there are methods.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		You could get an image intensifier, which they call a night vision, which certainly would probably help enhance the optical image.
		That's presupposing, of course, that this phenomenon emits very low energy photons, either in the infrared or the visible spectrum.
		Maybe also if you get ultraviolet lenses, you might try to shoot in that region with stilofilm.
		You may have some success.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, caller.
		Yes.
		I've actually got something for you to try, all right?
		If you have a device that emits infrared, something I discovered about two weeks ago is that cats can see an infrared.
unidentified		Can they?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we can't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I proved this beyond any shadow of a doubt by, you know, I've got a little pen that emits, you know, like the laser pen.
unidentified		Right, I've seen it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Only this one emits infrared.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And my cat absolutely would chase the infrared all over the place, and I couldn't see a thing.
unidentified		I'll try that.
unidentified		That should be interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		If I get anything, we'll let you know.
		Enjoy your show.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much, and take care.
		Boy, oh boy, oh boy.
		Again, being a cat person, I lost one cat, and I've never had a cat jump on me or knead on me that was a ghost of a cat, and I don't know that I want that, but I've had very strong feelings that my cat, whose name was Yesu, has been present or around me or near me.
		Now, that could be a manifestation of my own wishful thinking and my mind, because I love that cat so much.
		I don't know.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, see, it's very common, Ark, for people who lose someone close to them, whether that be a pet or it be a loved one, you know, husband, wife, father, mother, sister, brother, to really feel they're around, whether they be or not, simply because it's normal to have those feelings.
		In fact, it's abnormal not to have those feelings.
		So the question is, are those feelings just because we're human and we want that bond to be maintained, or is it because something is present?
		And that's the million-dollar question, as we've said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you communicated with or had a dialogue with any atheists?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, over the years, in lectures I've given, in classes I've taught, they've come forward and made their points clear to me or their views clear to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Atheists appear to be almost as passionate in their view of the great nothing as those who believe in the great something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's almost like a religion.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, they say that if there were such things as ghosts or aliens, it would have to be manifestations of God or the devil.
		And since there is no such thing as God or the devil, there is no phenomena.
		So again, it's faulty logic.
		Their reasoning isn't very clear.
		But, you know, it's hard really.
		I don't waste a lot of my time and energy dealing with debunkers or these hardcore skeptics or people that have no open mind.
		In other words, their mind's made up.
		They don't want to deal with the facts.
		Because, you know, I mean, one debunker I was talking to on one show I was on, a TV show, you know, he said, no matter what evidence you bring me or brought me, no matter what I observed, I know this phenomenon doesn't exist.
		I go, then why are you here?
		You're not here to debate it.
		You're here to tell everyone that you don't believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I think that's what I'm saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was that Phil Glass?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		No, this was someone else from Psycop.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, oh, yes.
		I'm familiar with the group.
		I get email from them in copious amounts.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, I mean, I made it clear on the show that, you know, I understand how science functions, replicating your data in controlled environments.
		And, you know, the replicability of the whole thing.
		When I said if this phenomena worked in accordance with the scientific method per se, we'd either and it never occurred, we wouldn't be discussing it.
		If it occurred all the time, again, it'd be no mystery, be part of our world.
		The fact that it occurs some of the time and not all the time tells us one very important thing, and that is we're ignorant.
		We're ignorant about a very powerful and dramatic aspect of the world we live in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if we were smart enough, sensitive enough to this phenomenon, it would be your view that we would see its manifestation virtually any time.
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		Well, if if it all if we could make it work as reliable as the rest of our senses are, as reliably as the rest of our senses are, it'd be an established part of our world.
		If no one ever had these experiences, it was just like a vacuous land of nothing.
		Again, there'd be nothing to contest.
		The fact that it occurs some of the time, not all the time, tells us that we're missing out on something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you remember I asked you earlier, and we're running out of time.
		I could do six programs on this.
		I asked you earlier, if we were suddenly to find out there was a great nothing out there, what effect on society?
		How about the opposite question?
		If we were to suddenly find out there is an afterlife, absolutely is an afterlife, what effect would that have on society?
dr barry taff ▲ ● ▼		My feeling is it might turn a lot more people towards religion, perhaps in the short term.
		And also it depends on what we learned about that afterlife.
		What is it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no doubt we would get a partial answer.
		We wouldn't get a whole answer.
		We would find out somehow there is a barrier, there is something over there, but we don't yet quite know what it is, but we can declare there is something.
		You're right.
		In the short term, that would probably turn a whole lot of people toward religion.
		We're out of time.
		Doctor, thank you.
		I hope lots of people go up online and download your book.
		And as always, we'll have you on again.
		Thank you so very much.
		It's my pleasure, Art.
		All right.
		Take care.
		Dr. Barry Tapp, that's it, folks.
		Out of time.
		Thank you.
		From an area near Dreamland.
		Good night.
		This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience, not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not matched.
		Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.

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