Linda Moulton Howe and Barry Taff explore environmental toxins—like radium in New Jersey wells (65% exceeding federal standards)—linked to amphibian die-offs, including California’s frog extinctions since 1915. Howe ties crop circles and UFO sightings, like the 1998 Los Alamos orange light, to animal mutilations in Colorado, while Taff examines OBEs, rare cases like the Hollymont poltergeist (1976), and skepticism toward EVP. Both debate consciousness survival, with Taff warning governments may suppress revelations fearing societal collapse. Ultimately, their research suggests hidden forces—whether paranormal or extraterrestrial—could redefine reality’s boundaries. [Automatically generated summary]
We've got a new webcam up, new webcam software up.
And so if you get an opportunity to take a look at the webcam software, you might let me know.
But I'm judging it's easily twice as detailed as what we had previously.
So that's the studio cam at my website, www.artbell.com.
So that way, actually, if you've got a good computer, you can sit there and watch us do the show and listen to the show live at the same time.
About two minutes from broadcast.
Mark.
unidentified
In the meantime, a federal mediator is working with U.S. West and union negotiators in Denver to try and head off a strike of 33,000 telephone workers.
And the world's longest yard sale goes on despite the deaths of two people along its route in Tennessee.
This is USA Radio News.
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If you drive a Nissan, listen up.
USA's John Scott reports that Nissan has announced a voluntary safety recall.
The recall is for all 1995, 96, 97, and some 98 Centra and 200SX vehicles.
Nissan says the recall is designed to prevent windshield wiper failure.
The automaker says on the affected Centras and 200SXs, water may enter a windshield wiper arm linkage ball joint and could result in gradual wear over a period of time inside that joint.
Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience, not easily nor neatly put in a box.
Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not met, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
This is Dreamland.
It certainly is.
And I'll say a good Sunday evening to all of you.
I'm Mark Bell.
As usual, in a moment, from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, our scientific reporter, I would say one of the world's foremost investigators into crop circles and animal mutilation.
She has a couple of books out on the subject, other high strangeness, I think would be fair to say.
She'll be here with a report, and I'll tell you, Thursday evening this last, there was a report on CNN confirming everything Linda Moltenhouse said about hysteria and the report she's had and validating every bit of it.
Fishermen beginning to get very sick because of the fish they handle.
They actually showed brain scans in which these fishermen had brains that were up to 70% in the photographs changed in one way or another from a normal brain.
They couldn't remember things.
This, folks, is from fish in our ocean.
So we'll get to all of that.
Not that today's report is oriented that way, but I wanted to validate what Linda Moltow has been reporting on.
Finally, it makes the mainstream press.
There is a product so good that we can barely keep it in stock.
It's something new under the sun.
Most of you probably don't know about light-emitting diodes, LEDs.
They are remarkable devices, but they were always red.
Then somebody here recently invented the white LED, and we now have the white LED flashlight.
Flashlight, I said.
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What lasts this long?
Waterproof O-ring construction.
I said waterproof.
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Well, all right.
Now from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, here is Linda Moulton Howe.
I have dozens of these amazing formations that Peter Sorensen has been drawing on a daily basis and getting facts back to me.
They are, without doubt, some of the most amazing and even another fractal kind of formation that has been repeated this summer, a variation on last year.
And I'm so delighted to hear that CNN has put on a story that shows the work that Johns Hopkin and Duke University have done on the effects of the toxin that is released from the fisterial organism when it is in a particularly aggressive stage that does kill fish and as they attack the fish.
And it's a plant-animal combination of a thing called a dinoflagellate.
And we all need to be more aware of what is in our environment and what we're doing.
Well, in fact, I've been reporting about it for two years.
And at last it seems like that political bodies are beginning to respond and fund changes.
And in fact, my lead tonight is from the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences to popular newspapers such as USA Today, there are increasing headlines about the alarming disappearance of amphibians around the world.
In the United States alone, it is now estimated that one-third of the toad, frog, and salamander population is gone.
U.S. Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt recently told reporters that in a visit to Yosemite National Park in California, the night was so quiet and free of the amphibian croakings that should have been there that Babbitt wants to increase scientific monitoring of the animals.
But scientists already know that Yosemite's amphibian population is in trouble.
Recent headcounts were compared to studies made in the park back in 1915.
Yosemite had 10 species of frogs and toads then.
Today, three of those species have died out, and there has been a large decline in the remaining seven.
Researchers this summer were also alerted to mass deaths of frogs in some Minnesota lakes.
Viruses and fungus have been traced in some, but many scientists argue that the germs and the fungus would not normally kill the amphibians in such numbers.
So something in the environment might be weakening their immune systems.
Amphibians are especially susceptible to water and air pollution because they breathe through their skin.
But another culprit in the decline and extinctions of amphibians could be increased ultraviolet B radiation from the sun.
I've interviewed zoologist Andrew Blaustein from Oregon State University several times on Dreamland about his research that shows natural sunlight on the Cascade Lakes now literally kills amphibian eggs.
He thinks the cause is increased UVB radiation produced when the protective ozone layer that surrounds our planet is destroyed by industrial chemical emissions.
Increased UVB radiation has also been shown to weaken immune systems, and that might explain why some amphibians are now dying from viruses and fungi that normally would not be lethal.
On top of ozone thinning, there is also the huge problem of water pollution.
This past week, the Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper summarized a June 1998 report produced by the U.S. Geological Survey, which states that unsafe levels of radium, which can cause cancer, were found in one-third of 170 wells tested in southern New Jersey.
Worse, in more heavily populated areas, 65% of the tested wells contain water that exceeded federal standards for radium.
The Philadelphia Inquirer pointed out that, quote, radium is a known cause of bone and nasal cancers.
It is especially dangerous to children who have developed bone tissue or have developing bone tissue.
When a person ingests radium, the body interprets the radioactive element as calcium and deposits radium in bones, unquote.
One area in New Jersey where children have cancers at a much higher rate than in other New Jersey cities is Palms River, and last year, health officials found unsafe levels of radium in Palms River drinking water.
Further, the USGS report specifically linked how fertilizers and lime used on residential and agricultural land can increase radium in underground water.
In fact, southern and central New Jersey's largest aquifer was documented in the USGS report as having widespread radium contamination throughout the aquifer.
The USGS has also found unsafe levels of mercury in the aquifer.
But incredibly, health officials throughout southern New Jersey say they were not told about this most recent USGS report about well water contamination and learned about it from the Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper story.
Yeah, when hundreds of furious New Jersey residents and health officials started calling last week to find out why they had not been informed, the USGS sent copies of its report to New Jersey's Ocean County Health Department with a cover letter that the Philadelphia Inquirer reprinted, and part of it states, quote, inadvertently, county health departments were not included in a previous mailing of this fact sheet.
As you may know, articles that discuss some of the USGS findings have been published in a local newspaper, meaning the Philadelphia Inquirer.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you, unquote.
The cover letter was signed by the chief of the Geohydrologic Studies Program of the USGS.
And Art, this reminds me of North Carolina's dismissal of fee steria as a real problem in its estuary waters until media and public pressure forced federal and state officials to start dealing with the problem.
And people and children and babies are drinking this water or were until this report.
How do we make government officials accountable when everyone seems to be afraid of full and open disclosures about increasing environmental deterioration?
Well, now switching gears to unusual phenomena and unidentified sky objects, I talked this week to a minister and his mother who live in Los Alamos, Colorado.
They described an object very reminiscent of other reports since the 1960s.
Los Alamos is a rural town east of Pueblo in the southeastern corner of Colorado.
About 50 miles southwest of Los Alamos is Pinyon Canyon, a large U.S. Army training facility.
And further west of Pinyon Canyon are the Sangre de Cristo Mountains and Alamosa County, where the unusual death of a horse named Lady made international headlines in September of 1967.
31 years ago in that summer, Alamosa residents had reported seeing orange glowing lights in the night sky and strange aerial vehicles that move rapidly during the day.
The owners of the dead horse were convinced that something from outer space killed Lady, and international headlines posed the question, did a UFO zap the Colorado horse, leaving it stripped of flesh from the neck up?
When I produced my documentary film, A Strange Harvest, about the animal mutilation mystery, ranchers and law enforcement told me that when the orange glowing spheres showed up, they found dead animals missing an ear, eye, jaw flesh, tongue, genitals, and rectal tissue, all bloodless with no tracks around.
Periodically over the years, people have continued to report seeing orange-colored spheres in southern Colorado.
And now Larry Riesel, a Los Angeles minister, and his mother, Nona, say that on August 12, 1998, they both watched an odd-looking orange light larger than the background stars rise above a mesa and disappear to rise again and disappear repeatedly.
All right, now this is a minister you're going to hear from.
unidentified
Well, as we're sitting there facing to the west, it would be more to our southwest, probably about 10 to 15 miles away from us, we watched this orange object come up over these bluffs, these mesas, probably about 50 feet above these bluffs, and then wink out.
And then again, about another 15 minutes, it did it again.
And it would be, it would hang there stationary for a while.
It was kind of, it looked like a molten orange liquid.
And When it went down again, you could see an arc of orange light behind one of the mesas of the bluff.
Yeah, and how it got from zero, I mean, to that, of course, I don't know.
It's just one of those strange things that we don't know anything about.
And the orange object winks out, and the next thing I know, it's probably 20,000 feet in the air because it looks about the size to be a passenger jet, the light.
And now it's two lights together, extremely bright, almost like two stars together, and it's wobbling back and forth.
And we watch this for another 10 or 15 minutes or more, and it finally kind of disappears and winks out.
But it went from that really round, circular light, and then it went from, what, 200 to 300 feet off the ground to around 20,000 feet without going in between.
Well, from your sky watches the last couple of years, what would be the other most astonishing thing you've seen?
unidentified
Same area, okay?
You just have to see the area to know it's very remote.
It was one of these orange globes that we see.
Only it was, to me, it was not round.
These orange globes that we see is still their problem around here.
This was more oval shaped, and it wasn't as orangey.
It was just a light, and it had no nothing.
I mean, there was no things on it, you know, no lights or anything.
It was just a glow.
But the thing that what it looks like, these little twinkling lights just flew out of it, were coming out, and they were going in this direction, if I remember correctly.
Okay, they came out, the south door, okay, we'll call it like the thing that had a door on it, came out of the south door, circled around, and went to the north.
All these little lights, and I don't know how many, I didn't count them.
And in Trinidad, Colorado, in the 1970s, a little further southwest of there, the chief investigator for the district attorney's office and a deputy both sat in a car and watched an orange light the size of the full moon split in two, each sphere racing off in opposite directions, then coming back together into one orange glowing sphere that moved down toward the ground and disappeared.
At the same time, they were investigating dozens of animal mutilation cases.
And if anyone listening has recently seen such orange spheres or knows about new animal mutilations, please fax me, Linda Howe, at 215 AREACODE 491-9842.
That's AREACODE 215-491-9842.
Or write to me at Post Office Box 300 in Jameson, J-A-M-I-S-O-N, Pennsylvania, zip code 1-8929.
Linda, we've only got a few seconds, and I know this is utterly unfair, but I mean, these are incredible, incredible Developments regarding these sightings in animal mutilations.
After all these years, do you want to take a fast guess at what it is?
Well, in my work and in this newest book out, Glimpses of Other Realities, Volume 2, High Strangeness, that's Amazon.com, Barnes Noble, and bookstores, are some of the best military voices discussing not only who or what could be interacting with this planet, but even possibly why.
It's a complicated one that in some instances appears to be extraterrestrial and may be defined as something else than others.
Probably the most interesting guest that I've ever had on the subject of ghosts and things that go bump in the night, and maybe sometimes during the day as well, is Dr. Barry Taft.
He is a remarkable interview, and he'll be coming right up.
Don't move.
Well, now I've seen it all.
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Well, all right.
I know that Dr. Taff was the principal investigator in what we know as the Entity case, a truly, truly frightening case of manifestation, I guess.
Actually, attack, attack by some sort of manifestation would be more like it.
The Good Doctor's book coming out is Aliens Above, Ghosts Below, Explorations of the Unknown.
And there are so many of you on the web that if you go to the web, you will now find a link, Dr. Taff's name, and a link.
And you can actually purchase on the net the book.
You can read an excerpt from the book for free.
And you can read about Dr. Taff.
But this time, I think, we're going to let Dr. Taff.
Well, the reason I'm into this field, actually, my background is I've been a parapsychologist for, I've worked in this field for approximately 30 years.
I worked out of UCLA's former parapsychology laboratory from 1969 through 1978 when it was formally terminated.
I was working there as a research associate.
I hold a doctorate in psychophysiology from UCLA.
And during my 30 years, I've investigated more than 3,500 cases of ghosts, hauntings, poltergeists as such, conducted extensive studies in telepathy, precognition, and remote viewing.
Some of the work I did was the, I guess you call it, the initial protocol development for what was now called remote viewing.
This was done in the early 1970s, before SRI picked it up and the military took it over.
I was also myself investigated as a psychic subject.
This was published in a medical journal back 23 years ago.
It was called A Laboratory Investigation of Telepathy, the Study of the Psychic.
That's what got me into all this.
When I was growing up as a child, I was having a profound number of what called telepathic, clairvoyant, precognitive experiences, other body experiences.
In other words, anybody who had these what normal people would call powers would not be suspect of them at all until they suddenly realized, maybe in the principal's office, that this is not normal.
Oh, it precedes that by many years, but that was just a classic situation where I'd be around somebody and I know something about them or, you know, whatever.
Another situation was someone in the school, this is again an elementary school, was stealing bicycles.
And I just went up to this one person and I said, why are you doing it?
And she finally broke down and admitted that her friends were stealing the bikes.
So I just assumed this was normal, that you could just know or sense these things.
And who knew in this back long, long, this was like 40 years ago.
Now, this leads to an obvious question, and that is, is it your view, your best guess, that you were born with this or that it developed in some way in your early years?
It's like my feeling about this aspect of the human condition is that it's sort of like we all have muscles, and yet we all drive cars, but most of us will never become a race driver because we lack the physical stamina, the endurance, the coordination, etc.
Most of us may participate in some simple sport activity because we enjoy it, but few of us will ever become decassan champions.
I think everyone has a little potential in them and it varies from person to person.
Some, just like some people are born with a better physique, better vision than others, some people have an incredible inherent potential and if they receive the proper type of feedback, positive feedback and reinforcement to develop a learning paradigm within their own mind, they can substantially improve their ability.
Well, I tended not to listen to what other people said because I know what I experienced.
So it's not like they said you couldn't have done it.
They just thought that there was some alternative explanation for it.
After these things happen hundreds, if not thousands of times, varying type of experiences in this area, you begin to either assume that you're having emotional problems, you're delusional, or something beyond the scope of our current understanding is occurring.
And so I just, from that point on, I had a lot of friends, but they were kind of, they kept me at an arm's length because they were kind of frightened because I'd always come up with things that I shouldn't know or shouldn't have known or couldn't have known and, you know, trivial things, you know, as you're growing the minutiae of life.
It was probably the most predominant aspect of my life at that point.
And there were aspects of it that were semi-controllable, meaning they were almost volitional.
So I met a student, a graduate student who actually worked with Delma, M. Moss, and he introduced me to her, and she sat me down after I spoke a little bit about my background.
And she just threw me her keys and said, psychometrize.
Tell me what you can tell me.
Now, I knew nothing about the woman other than the fact that she worked at UCLA, and they had a little lab going.
And I proceeded to tell her things about herself.
This just popped into my head.
And apparently, much of it was accurate.
Described some of her best friends, what they looked like, some of their medical problems, you know, whatever.
And she was impressed.
So I became a research assistant in the lab, and I became also a subject where she did a formal study on me, which was published in Behavioral Neuropsychiatry.
If this had not been, if it had not been for my own personal experiences in this area, I don't think I ever would have gone into this because I'm very skeptical by nature and I'm more oriented towards science.
So I would have been very dubious.
All these experiences would have been extremely dubious to me.
But since I've never used drugs and I don't abuse alcohol, if use it at all, as most of my friends did, we were growing up in that hippie era.
You know, more so along that line of thinking, I've scared off some of my best friends.
When I was in early college, undergraduate college, my neighbor and I had traded off driving to school because we shared a lot of the classes and time schedules.
So one day we're driving in his car, he had a Plymouth Barracuda, 68 Barracuda.
And so we're driving, and suddenly, I said, stop the car.
And he goes, why?
I said, just stop.
And he said, why?
We'll be late.
I said, look, we're going to get in an accident.
A woman in a red 66 T-bird is going to T-bum us.
And she's going to have beige interior.
She's going to have black hair, you know, like in a beehive.
This is, you know, in the 60s.
And I said, your car is going to be pretty badly damaged.
And he goes, are you out of your mind?
And I said, just stop the car.
Let's sit here and just veg out for 10 minutes or listen to the radio or go get something to drink, you know, get a nice tea or something.
He wouldn't do it.
So I buckled the old-fashioned shoulder belts they had then that weren't integrated into the seat belt.
And within a few minutes, there was the accident.
We were broadsided, and we weren't hurt, but the car was pretty damaged.
All I ever got from him was that it scared him severely enough where he didn't want to be around somebody who was going to tell him things that were going to happen that he didn't know of.
When Daniel is talked about, he'll pick up a phone and call me, and he'll say, you're talking about me, huh?
Danien will grab a piece of paper, and I really can't describe in what case this was, but I know personally this to be true.
And he would be able to tell me who wrote it, what their motives were, what their house looks like, what was out in front of the house, what kind of car.
It totally creeps me out.
And Danion, if you're listening, buddy, I love you, but it does creep me out.
And that's how a normal person, in quotes, I think reacts to this sort of thing.
I don't remember the precise details because it was 25 years ago, but I remember we were together and I suddenly had this feeling or sensation, the left pectoral area.
And then I, I guess the best way to describe it is whatever I do when I look at people to initiate this process, it's sort of like a color CAT scan.
I can't describe it in my mind.
That's what it looks like.
Like you're looking at an anatomy book and you slice the person open.
You know, you've sectioned them.
And in my mind, I see it.
And what's intriguing, for example, is not long ago, I diagnosed this friend, and I told her she had some degenerative problems with the C4, 5, and 6 vertebrae.
And I said, these aren't traumatic injuries.
These are degenerative problems and describe bone spurs and the whole bit.
Well, there were two studies done, and I said one was done by Dr. Moss, which was published in a medical journal, which mostly dealt with telepathy.
But within that telepathy, there was some clairvoyance sort of snuck in and some precognition snuck in.
And that was the first hint to me, among many other things that developed in our early remote viewing development work, was that this phenomena, what we call telepathic or clairvoyance or precognition, are all different aspects of the same thing.
It's all determined by where in time, space and time it appears to come from and where we are when we perceive it.
Now the other side of this is, even though you might totally freak out friends, I would imagine that people who have an illness that is undiagnosed that they desperately need help with would come to somebody like you and beg you to try and help them.
Has there been a lot of that?
We're at a breakpoint here, so it's a quick answer I've got to give.
We are in our break right now, and I think that just so there's something here, I'm going to bring up the newscast at the top of the hour.
As you know, President Clinton Monday is going to go before a grand jury, and there no doubt is news of that.
It's kind of an interesting story because they're trying to decide what he's going to say.
Is he going to admit sexual contact with Monica Lewinsky, or is he going to not admit anything?
And they're in the throes of that decision-making right now.
Which is an interesting way to put it, if you think about it, because it's kind of like they're back there deciding.
I know this probably isn't true, but they're back there deciding what quality of lie it will be or whether it shall be the truth.
Anyway, his advisors are huddling with him on that question, and it almost does make it sound that way, doesn't it?
As though they're deciding, well, are we going to lie our butts off or are we going to tell the truth?
Anyway, all of that underway.
So let's see what the news has to say.
are listening to Dreamland.
unidentified
Dreamland And USA Radio Network News, this is Heather Scott.
Secretary of State Madeline All Wright is denying reports the U.S. tried to block or delay surprise U.N. inspections of Iraqi weapons sites.
Alright says the State Department fully supports the U.N.'s right to decide where, when, and how it conducts inspections.
But Mark Fleisley with Republican National Committee says this is just another example of President Clinton's administration doing one thing and meaning another.
He publicly rails against Saddam Hussein when he gets up and he speaks.
And then his people down below him, like his top Secretary of State Department person, goes and does another thing and gives Saddam Hussein the green light.
In other news, 11 southern and southwestern states hardest hit by the heat wave are getting $50 million in aid.
President Clinton has asked Congress not to kill the low-income home energy assistance program that helped poor people beat the heat.
We'll do what we can, but I hate to put anything else on your legislative plate, but I need you to help me get this WhiteHEAP program continued.
It looks like extreme weather will intensify, not abate, and America needs to be there to help our most vulnerable citizens.
In the meantime, the White House continues to dispute reports that President Clinton may admit to a limited physical encounter with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky.
The Dow closed 34 points.
This is USA Radio News.
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Six Americans and 12 other activists won't have to do hard labor in Asian nations formerly known as Burma.
Your state's Connie Lawrence reports the government will deport the group instead.
The White House is pleased the American students will be expelled from Burma or Myanmar.
But White House spokesman Mike McCurry says the arrests should not have happened in the first place.
The White House official says the situation points to the general lack of democracy and human rights in that country.
The U.S. has been calling for improvement and greater liberty.
Coming law on USA Radio News, the White House.
Nearly 3,500 union maintenance workers for Conrell are on strike.
Employees walked off the job over the use of outside contractors to construct railroad tracks in Marysville, Ohio.
Conrell says the strike is illegal and is seeking a temporary restraining order against the striking workers.
Conrell has 21,000 miles of tracks through 14 states.
This is USA Radio News.
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Chicago millionaire Steve Fawcett is halfway through his attempt to become the first person to serve the world non-stop in a hot air balloon.
Fawcett is about 2,400 miles west of Australia.
Alan Blount with Fawcett Mission Control says earlier the balloon had been blown off course.
The team had asked Steve to climb to 28,000 feet to once again for the third time to test the higher altitude winds and see if he could get that shift to the right, which would take him east.
He did that, and it was a little frightening because on the way up, he went through several altitude levels where he was actually tracking the wrong way towards the northwest.
Wild says the flight is now back on track.
The Immigration and Naturalization Service is offering a $5,000 reward for information about the person they believe led eight aliens across the border and abandoned without food or water.
It is really an amazing thing that you can interview somebody as I have Dr. Taff, this being the fourth time, because he's such a fascinating person.
And in the fourth interview, find out so much you didn't know about the man.
Absolutely remarkable.
Nothing short of remarkable.
Dr. Taff will be right back.
Boy, do I have an exciting ghost story for you.
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Well, all right, once again from Los Angeles, California, here is Dr. Barry Taff.
Doctor, welcome back.
Pleasure to be here.
I'm just really puzzling about how I could not have known all this about you because you always came at this as an investigator, and that's all we've ever talked about, not the investigated.
Well, then I can easily understand how you've moved into the area of investigation that you did.
Now I really understand it.
With regard to ghosts, one of my favorite subjects of all time, I mean, actually, we could discuss ghost telepathy, polar geyser UFOs, precognition, remote viewing.
I'm beginning to get to the point where I'm almost ready to put all of these into the same bag, and that may be too simplistic, but I'm beginning to wonder if there is not some sort of single source that's behind all of this.
Well, I think what there may be from my own experiences and my research is that there seems to be other forces at work here in our domain, in our universe, in our world.
Forces that are not necessarily electromagnetic or not gravitational or not, and certainly not nuclear as we know them.
And these forces may be at the root of the paranormal and may also be the forces that UFOs may utilize to function and perform the miraculous events they do in our environment.
And so when things appear and disappear, when things go through solid walls, when lights manifest unusual apparitions, we call that paranormal.
Well, when you move into whether it was the entity case or any other ghost or poltergeist case, and you move in as an investigator, do you find that your abilities aid you?
I would imagine the answer to that would be probably yes, but does it skew scientific objectivity?
I really am not interested in a subjective approach to this at all because it doesn't lend any more credible information to the, it doesn't add any more data to our base in the sense of psychics are great in the proper environment and the proper perspective, and their information could be very helpful in certain situations.
But when you're investigating ghosts, even if you could confirm and validate what it is they're talking about, names, places, and dates, which of course can be done with enough research, that it could mean that they're just somehow, it's retrocognition.
They're sensing the past.
They're sensing it flairvoyantly at a distance.
That doesn't prove they're in communication with whatever energy entity phenomena is there.
And I'm more interested as a scientist to physically document the phenomena in terms of thermal imaging and optical imaging and microwave imaging and hardware.
Yes, from my own subjective experience and some of the research, no, because there's a lot of information available, but it isn't, unfortunately, hard objective information.
Again, it's the anecdotal type.
And no one has yet died, literally, and come back and describe something.
And not enough people have had, well, perhaps fortunately, have not had that experience.
But I believe, based on the experiences I've had and the research I've done, that whatever makes each of us unique unto ourselves in some form probably existed long before our bodies were around.
Well, to me, the most significant aspect of a near-death experience is the out-of-body, not the tunnel of light and not seeing a being at the end of it, because there's so many interpretations of that.
But what does impress me is when they apparently float up from their body and they're able to see and perceive and remember events happening at great distances from their body, which I myself have experienced when I was younger having out-of-body experiences.
And it's very vivid, it's very clear, it's like you're there, but you're not physically.
That to me suggests that consciousness at some level can separate itself, can dislocate itself from the body, and in some way manifest itself in a remote location, perceive information, and then bring it back to the body.
None of the classic, it was while I was on vacation, none of the classic humming and buzzing and paralyzing, none of that.
It was instant, in an instant, in just an instant, I accelerated straight up out of my body, up above Paris.
And I don't even say that I physically was particularly aware of what was below me.
I was in the most joyful, ecstatic condition a person, I mean, there aren't words to describe it.
It so shocked me that I immediately, or at least I think immediately, time reference is very difficult, I slammed back into my body and I woke my wife up and I started to tell her about all of this.
unidentified
Honey, you wouldn't believe what just happened to me.
Well, the question is, even beyond that, Art, is what is it of us that externalizes itself from the body?
What aspect, what part of consciousness, as if we know what consciousness is, but there's something that is not neurochemical or electrochemical that can, you know, I don't know, soul, spirit, whatever, I don't know, can leave the body and can transit and, you know, to virtually anywhere.
Well, I guess the best way to describe it is when I was a young kid, I'd lay back in bed and think, gee, someday I'm going to get old like everyone else.
Someday I'm going to die like everyone else.
And I won't be here anymore.
And I thought, what an unpleasant thought.
I don't want to die.
Who wants to die?
But I thought, you know, not that long ago, I wasn't alive.
And that didn't bother me.
I'm not worried about that.
I don't have any painful or disturbing memories or recall of not being physical.
And based on that and based on my out-of-body experiences when I was younger and other experiences, I think it's basically existing in another domain, but you're not the way we are now, but you may carry part of what makes you with you.
And so then, for the sake of the discussion, if it's an absolute blank after we're gone, then what the hell is the point of this?
I mean, we're here for a cosmic blink.
Suns are around for a medium amount of time.
We're here for a cosmic blink of the eye.
I mean, it's almost totally without reason and I'm searching for the right word here, meaning this short physical existence if there is not more to it than this.
But of course, people, meaning us human beings, try to give reasons to everything.
We think there was a reason and rhyme for everything that is.
And it may just be that, you know, it may be as simple as the fact that we exist in different forms, but we change forms.
In other words, energy, as we know it, conservation of energy, can't be created or destroyed.
But it can change forms.
From one like, you know, to potential to kinetic or something along those lines.
I don't think it's as simple as that when your body stops, you physically die.
But depending on who you are, the conditions under which you die, and perhaps some other variables may determine if part of your consciousness hangs around here and you start appearing as a ghost or an apparition or you transition to wherever it is we go when we leave this physical domain.
There is, when you deal with this type of phenomena, there is this category which suggests a haunting or a ghost, which in and of itself implies discarnate intelligence or disembodied intelligence or a consciousness or a soul that is incorporeal.
And theoretically, that would imply survival at some level.
Then there is the more down-to-earth, if we can call it that, end of this research, which says that the majority of this phenomenon, probably 98% or 99% of it, if not all of it, stems from the living human psyche, that virtually everything we're experiencing and investigating can be explained by some form of psychokinesis.
But we occasionally get those cases where to anyone, you know, anyone but a blind man, the evidence is all piled up on one end, and that is that something of someone is still hanging around.
One of the most of in my 30 years of work, the most spectacular case, Bangan, what I call the Mount Everest of my cases, took place in 1976 in the Hollywood Hills.
We call it the Hollymont case.
And this is in chapter one in my book.
And what makes this case unique is that no one was living in the house while I was investigated initially.
That no pubeth in adolescent children, no emotionally troubled or disturbed belts.
And we found a body buried under the house in 1922.
1976, a student at UCLA comes in our parapsychology lab, and he tells us of an incredible series of events that transpired at this house on Hollymont Drive in the Hollywood Hills.
And he said that this woman walked in, and a throne chair flew across the room and pinned through the wall.
A kettle came off the stove, flying through the air under its own power, dumped water over her head.
That cabbage was flying around the house with a knife in it, chasing people.
And I said, did you see this?
He goes, yes, we were all there.
I said, is there any way we can gain access to this house?
He goes, of course, let me make some calls.
Subsequently, we ended up at this house owned by a man named Don Jolly, who was a banker.
And while the first night we were there, all hell broke loose.
Good cliffhanger point, and we'll be right back to you.
It's the bottom of the hour.
Absolutely incredible.
I'm Art Bell.
is Dreamland.
All right, and we're out.
Hello, broadcast.com audience.
Oh, man, what an incredible story.
Absolutely incredible.
I'm going to give you a slow version of the phone numbers now, and we're going to begin taking calls.
So anybody who wants to call now is welcome to.
The first time caller line is Area Code 702-727-1222.
That's if you've never called before, obviously.
The wildcard line is Area Code 702-727-1295.
We have two toll-free lines: one for west of the Rockies, which is good in Canada and Mexico as well, at 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-8255, and east of the Rockies as well, at 1-800-825-5033.
That's 1-800-825-5033.
What a remarkable story.
So anyway, those are the lines.
You can begin calling now.
Dr. Barry Taff is my guest, and we will resume the program, oh, I don't know, in about four minutes.
Buried in pennies, that is the most remarkable story that I think I've ever heard.
I don't know.
I'd become incontinent, I think.
In other words, I'd wet my pants.
I don't know why I'm talking about this right now, but I'm telling you, I wouldn't, how would the rest of you do psychologically if something like that happened to you?
I think that you would have to be an investigator.
You would have to be in the field.
And if you were a casual presence, you happened to be in the house when that went on, you'd wet your pants, and then you'd run or something.
Let's get to the right and we're going to finish up this story shortly.
We are going to begin taking calls for Dr. T. Still stuck back in the pennies.
And I'll kind of repeat what I told the broadcast.com audience during the break here in a moment.
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Well, with night vision, of course, night is turned virtually into day.
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All right, back now to Barry Taff, Dr. Barry Taff, who was at the UCLA Parapsychology Department 1969 through 1978 and really is a remarkable man.
Dr. Taff, you're back on the air again.
And we were right in the middle of a cliffhanger here.
This was, as I said, we were saying a case in the Hyde Park District, Inglewood, so to speak, 1970.
While investigating the house, we were conducting a seance to see if we could make anything happen because we didn't feel like waiting for it indefinitely.
And after the seance ended, I was meandering about the house, and suddenly there was a large man in there who was not part of our group.
And he was tall, white-haired, stocky, wearing a khaki-colored shirt and print slacks.
And literally, he starts attacking me, starts strangling me and choking me.
And, you know, I'm not a very large man.
He picked me up and throw me in the bathtub, jumped on top of me, started strangling me while he was going, get out of my house, get out.
This is my house.
So there were five other six other men there, and they attacked him, and they started hitting him, and they beat him off me to the floor.
unidentified
So in other words, this is a normal man until we saw a guy just started beating me up, attacking me.
And we described what we had seen, and he was shocked.
We helped him up to his feet.
He excused himself, you know, and he went to the bedroom, pulled a picture out of his dead grandfather, who was the one that he told us was haunting the house, who up to that time we had never seen.
And the picture he showed us was exactly what we saw attack me.
You know, whether it was the first story you told about the pennies falling or the one you just now told, as I told my audience during the break, or some of my audience during the break, look, I'm really going to be honest with you, if one of those things happened to me, I'd wet my pants, I'd run, and I don't know when I'd stop.
I mean, it would scare me so thoroughly, so profoundly, that I couldn't handle it.
I don't know that I could handle it.
And even an objective investigator like yourself, I mean, how do you handle that?
Well, I guess it's the same mentality that goes along with I also race cars and I used to fly jets.
And, you know, when you're willing to get in a racetrack at 180 miles an hour and your life's on the line, if you make an error in judgment or someone else does, the car malfunctions, you die in an instant.
Because it's not part of most people's daily life.
So it is a fringe reality for most people because they read about it, they hear about it, they see a special documentary, they see a movie, they listen to your show, they read books, but they don't necessarily have direct encounters with this as regularly as perhaps I or people I work with.
Well, you know, I guess I'd tend to agree with you.
If that ever happened to me, I suppose I wet my pants, too.
Probably the reason why I had to turn off your show the other night on the impending or possible impending nuclear holocaust, it scared the hell out of me.
And today, with more people having camcorders, you know, video cameras, you're getting more UFO activity, whatever.
But also, it should be understood that this phenomenon, the lights and the images displayed by this, the apparitions, for lack of a better term, are very...
Going back to the basis of the caller's question, though, maybe you could cite the best evidence we have, the best physical evidence that's been gathered in any case.
The evidence wouldn't, if you took it to trial, for example, the Ennity case, and like the San Petro case, both of which are chronicled in my book, we have a vast amount of photographic and video evidence captured and documented on these cases.
Yet if forced into court, these would be considered at best suggestive of a phenomenon we have yet to even understand.
It does not prove ghosts exist, but it strongly suggests that there's something out there that can somehow affect our physical world and do physical things, some of which is producing lights.
It's very rare to get an apparition on film or video.
These types of various types of physical parameters, like you said, the background, like the dielectric constant or thermal imaging or microwave or temperature, they're all inclusive in terms of this type of investigation.
However, we don't know enough about why the ambience changes under these conditions to really understand what it is the phenomena represents.
In other words, is the phenomena altering the environment or does the altering environment make the phenomena occur?
We don't know what comes first, the chicken or the egg.
The evidence is there, but I should tell you and tell the caller that if forced into court, the evidence for UFOs would win a case.
It's voluminous.
The evidence for ghosts is much weaker, and it's more anecdotal and suggestive.
The UFO evidence is kind of mind-boggling.
unidentified
I just can't imagine that if something very, and I don't mean to sound skeptical, but I can't imagine if there wasn't something compelling, it wouldn't be on ABC News and NBC News, and it wouldn't be splashed all over the tabloids.
So the science of written Lee Elders, we've seen them, but the good doctor is right.
The amount of UFO evidence, if taken to court, or even better yet, a congressional hearing, would probably prevail, but not with regard to ghosts or not with regard to an afterlife.
And if you want to know the truth, if I had one of the two questions that I would want to be answered more, that is to say the UFO question or the life after death question, I'm going for the life after death question every time.
Actually, more the inverse to the reverse of that.
But I think if it was objectively established that when we died, that's it.
We just rot in the grave and that's the end of it.
I think what it would do would decimate religious and spiritual beliefs.
But I think most people who adhere to a greater spiritual perspective wouldn't accept it too readily.
And I don't think that's going to happen.
I don't think in our lifetime, let's say in the next 50, 60 years, 70 years, there's going to be any hard data coming out one way or the other.
And if there is any data at all, it will probably end up supporting the existence of another reality that sort of reinforces the notion that life exists once the body.
I hope and I pray that you are correct, but I must be absolutely honest with you and my audience, I don't know that to be the case.
I don't know that to be the case.
On the other hand, believe me, if I'd been in a room where pennies started to fall out of a ceiling until they got ankle deep, I'd feel very differently.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Barry Taff.
I was going to have a question for Dr. Taff, but just may I support some comment you were just talking about life after death, if I may.
I had, you know, I guess the experience of witnessing my mother passing on, who she'd been on life support for an undue amount of time while the courts were still trying to settle out when a person was legally dead.
But when they turned the machine off, I just had to share this with you.
I was thinking about it as you're talking.
Her body stopped breathing.
Oh, I'd say, it's hard to imagine a moment like that.
You can't gauge time.
But I would guess at least a minute.
And I kept watching the scope that had been measuring all the electrical impulses through her body.
And I watched the wave get narrower and narrower and narrower.
And then it just dawned on me.
I thought she probably taught me the greatest lesson she'd ever taught me throughout my whole experience with her was, yes, there was an energy that went somewhere.
You know, as Dr. Tess said, it can't change state, but it went somewhere.
Well, I'll give you one story that I can't erase from my mind that was told to me recently.
It was a caller, I think, or a faxer.
But this person was with a relative like you were when they died.
And in a sort of loving, final gesture, as that dying moment came, my caller threw their body over the body of the person who was at the moment of death.
And they felt the person or the person's spirit pass right through them.
This is something that happened to me personally, oh, gosh, a good 25 years ago.
I was intense in my work as a project engineer, and I'd have occasion to get up in the middle of the night when I was having something trouble me, and I'd work it out, you know, and I was in intense specifications.
It's probably why I'm recuperating from a heart attack right now.
But anyways, we lived a little further west of where we're here now, but we're always, for some reason, lived on the lakeshore.
And I was sitting in the dining room working out this situation, this one specification.
I kept hearing these little voices going, you know, going in the background.
And I said, that's the kids up again next door because they used to sleep out a lot.
And then it occurred to me, well, it was well in the September and they couldn't be.
So I get up and I walk to the back door in the window.
We had like a porch that had butted our dining room there.
And I look out, nobody's there.
So I thought, well, maybe I'm hearing things.
So I go back.
I'm working.
This is like 3.30 in the morning.
I heard it again.
I get up and I go and I look around.
Okay, who's horsing around out there?
Couldn't see anything.
Finally went back to my work.
I kept hearing it sporadically.
I said, the hell with it.
I'm just going to go on with my work.
And I had occasion to travel a lot when we lived in that house.
And my wife and even my kids used to come.
They used to always hear the darnest things in this house.
And it was in a well-developed area.
It wasn't out in the middle of nowhere.
And I didn't know how to ever classify that.
I don't know if Dr. Taft ever heard of situations like that's fairly commonplace or is it a figment of a person's imagination or what?
Right, but it made up that this particular case, the phenomena compensated for that in other more blatant and aggressive ways.
But those voices, we've went into them, we've heard them, we've in vain attempted to record them, and they've been reported to us by hundreds of people over the years.
So this is not unusual.
Although it helps if there's more than one person hearing the voice.
A collective sighting or experience or independent corroboration really lends substantiation and objectivity.
Well, I'll tell you, it's the $64 billion question.
What do you think?
How many real atheists are there out there?
I suspect, I'm not sure, but I suspect not too many real ones.
I'm Art Bell and this is Dreamland.
All right, hello there, Broadcast.com audience.
Let me give you a rendition of the phone numbers again.
I see we're getting an excellent response.
Thank you all.
But this is one wild show.
How about the rest of you?
You still a little shaky on whether there might be an existence after this life?
I have to admit it.
I really am.
I'm shaky about it.
I'm hopeful, and I pray about it.
But I'm such a hands-on kind of person that I just don't know.
I just don't know.
How about you?
And I know some of the response is going to be, oh, come on, Art.
You have to have faith.
And I don't know why I can't.
Faith implies a leap beyond the available evidence to believe in something.
And I'm not yet to that point.
My fault.
Anyway, listen, here are the phone numbers.
If you want to be on after the news break, which I will bring up here in a moment.
First-time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
Wildcard line, area code 702-727-1295.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
That's 1-800-825-5033 here or in Canada.
And west of the Rockies, 1-800-618-8255.
That's 1-800-618-8255.
Let's see what's new in the world.
And then it's back to Dr. Taff.
This is Dreamland.
unidentified
USA Radio Network News.
This is Russ Ross.
Secretary of State Madeline Albright is heading to East Africa for the weekend.
She'll visit the bombed-out U.S. Embassy sites in Nairobi and Da'es Salaam as a goodwill gesture that the U.S. remains on a friendly status with both countries.
Meanwhile, the helicopter carrier, the USS Saipan, and a landing ship, the USS Tortuga, are steaming toward the Democratic Republic of Congo to be ready to evacuate Americans.
The commander on that Saipan ship is Captain Dick Enderly.
The primary means, because it's quickest, would be by a helicopter, but it varies from situation to situation.
Accessibility to a suitable place to land landing craft would dictate whether or not we could use them.
And the same would go for helicopters as well.
And the power crisis in the Congo is escalating.
The White House is denying the published report the U.S. tried to interfere with U.N. weapons inspections.
The report says the U.S. sought to prevent U.N. arms inspections in Iraq.
It says surprise visits to weapons sites were canceled after Secretary Albright argued the timing was wrong since the U.S. wished to avoid a new crisis with the Baghdad government.
White House spokesman Mike McCary admits the U.S. government does consult with the U.N. monitors, but he says the U.S. has no authority over them and never ordered the inspectors to curtail their visits.
President Clinton testifies Monday before the grand jury investigating his activities with a former White House intern.
Sources at the White House say depending on how that testimony goes, the president will either make a national televised statement or a brief White House statement.
In Bangkok, Thailand, New Jersey, Republican Congressman Chris Smith says the government of Myanmar, which is the former Burma, is releasing 17 young activists.
Six of those are Americans, and he says Myanmar did get some bad publicity over this.
It certainly brings a lot of floodlight of scrutiny to the Rangoon military government.
The activists were handing out pro-democracy leaflets.
Meanwhile, balloonist Steve Fawcett's hot air trip around the world is back on track.
We're pretty close to an 090, which is due east.
And so the maneuver did succeed.
We're very happy with it.
Alan Bond is Fawcett's Director of Mission Control.
Fawcett's over the Indian Ocean.
He hopes to hit Australia in a couple of days.
This is USA Radio News.
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Union maintenance workers for Conrail struck the railroad.
3,400 walk off the job over the use of outside contractors.
Conrail contends that strike is illegal and is now seeking a court order to end the walkout.
The Producer Price Index suggests an increase of two-tenths of 1% since the ELATA is with standard for as DRI.
It was another boring number.
0.2% may seem high when you've seen minus 0.1 and 0, but most of that reflected an increase in auto prices, and that's simply an artifact of the fact that incentive programs and buyer loyalty discount coupons all expired at the end of June.
Turning to Wall Street today, the Dow finished the week on the downside again, off 34.5 points to close at 84.25.
Even decliners again led advancers in heavy trading.
And my guest is Dr. Barry Taff, and we're talking about actually many things.
His new book is Aliens Above, Ghosts Below, Explorations of the Unknown.
We'll tell you how to get that, by the way, or when it's going to become available.
Would love to hear from you.
I've got a facts here, and I've got certainly a big question about things demonic.
Now, as we were discussing just prior to the break, as you well know, if you're a listener of my show, I've had Father Malachi Martin on many times, and he's a pretty convincing guy when it comes to the fact that these are demonic presences.
We'll get back to Dr. Taff in a moment.
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Well, all right.
Once again, Dr. Barry Chaff.
Doctor, welcome back.
All right.
I know this is going to put you really on the spot, but as I said, I've interviewed Dr. Martin many times, Father Martin, and there is no doubt in his mind whatsoever about heaven and hell and God and Satan and demonic presence.
Where does all that fit in, or does it fit in with what you know to be true or suspect to be true?
Well, first of all, as a researcher and as an investigator with a scientific orientation, our desire and intent is to try to document and learn something about the nature of the phenomenon.
Not much is known about it.
It's more speculative at this point.
But if you come from a religious perspective, obviously, based on all the writings of the Bible, people, for millennia, have thought this to be demonic.
Or some people suspected that to be.
But basically, it's sort of like the three blind men holding the elephant, depending on what you perceive and what you're holding and how you interpret that.
You call what you're experiencing something different.
I don't even like to deal with the religious implications because it muddies the water.
It's difficult enough trying to really establish a credible base of information regarding the phenomenon.
And I don't want the audience to take that the wrong way.
You're listening to somebody coming at all of this from a very scientific perspective, and that's not putting down religion in any way, if I'm hearing this correctly.
It's simply saying we can't mix it in with magnetometers and recorders and video camcorders and the rest of it, right?
In fact, an ice tray flew at them, a sack of napkins flew at them.
When they ran out of the front of the house, Connie Fox, the newswoman, newscaster, there was a Z-shaped stairwell in front of the house, a big stairway.
As she ran out of the house screaming, a book, a huge book, flew over the house, flapping its pages like wings.
Followed her down the front of the house, making three distinct angled turns, meaning nine-degree turns that has followed her down the stairs and dropped to her feet.
Well, let me tell you, I know there's something to this because I have talked with other professional camera crews with fresh betacam batteries in that just flat failed.
And the minute they would go out of the house or out of the area, they function again in the area.
And this is a lot of times in these investigating the course of these investigations, the phenomena just turns off your instrumentation to shut it down.
But see, more miraculous than a turning off equipment is what we call a ports where objects will appear and disappear in front of you.
Now, keep in mind, this is on Native American land.
I see these faces.
unidentified
I'm looking at bushes, and all of a sudden, they turn into faces for what seemed like a split second and then just disappeared.
Needless to say, I was quite beside myself, and I've checked, consulted with several different Native American, what they call medicine men, if you will.
I've heard many stories over the years of people, not quite identical to what this man has described, but similar in that they've had on Native American grounds, where they've had run-ins with something that really unnerved them.
Sometimes glowing apparitions, sometimes full-bodied apparitions, sometimes faces.
And the problem is it's really hard to know what it is you're dealing with because it's a subjective experience.
You don't have a camera.
There aren't a whole bunch of people observing the same thing at the same time.
So we're left with, is it the environment that's affecting you, or is it some force in the environment that's trying to subtly communicate with you?
And I'll tell you that I would be surprised that if there are breakthroughs in this area, which is problematic at best, but if there were real breakthroughs, that information would probably be withheld or disseminated over a long period of time because it would be very shocking to a lot of people one way or the other.
It's the same thing regarding if, let's say, the whole can of women as regarding the UFO phenomena was dumped in people's laps.
People who are real content just to move along, live their lives, be happy, have food, have shelter, have friends, have family, experience love and rest and recreation.
They don't need their lives disrupted and put into turmoil.
And if you start contemplating other worlds that you have no control over, that makes life more difficult.
But the implication here is that animals have the same opportunity at some sort of, I'm not going to say afterlife, continued existence after physical death, some sort of opportunity, as do we, which implies, I mean, we call it a soul in human beings.
Now, things flying through the air, knives, that sort of thing, or a book chasing me, I just, I absolutely couldn't handle that.
Would you say, again, this represents this kind of real physical manifestation that we're talking about here, represents, what, about 10% of the cases?
Well, of course, followers of most mainstream religions, particularly at least in the West, would really bristle at even the mention of the possibility of animals having souls.
And I'm not sure if you're aware, but there was a study done by a doctor.
I had it posted on my website.
Way back in the late 1800s, it was a good, sound, scientific study of people who were measured, actually put on scales at the moment of death, and at the exact instant of death, they lost three quarters of one ounce.
Now, they did the same experiment with animals and noted no change.
Now, of course, in 1998, you could never in a gazillion years do this kind of an experiment, a controlled experiment.
I don't think you could politically get away with it.
But there was that one well-documented experiment.
I posted it up on the website.
It had been myth, and then I finally found it.
That would imply that there's an actual weight involved in whatever leaves us at the moment of death.
But there's also an alternative explanation, which is a little more prosaic, and that is when the physical body dies, there are processes, ongoing processes, that cease, that terminate.
Some of these involve hydrostatic pressure, fluid balance, gases, and those collectively might constitute the loss you're describing, that's described in that study.
In other words, I don't think they had the technology in those days to really deal with that adequately, which might be why.
But also, animals being much smaller in their physical structure might have such a marginal or hard to measure.
But again, with current technology and our greater understanding of physiology, both human and animal, we might be able to look at this data with a different perspective and get a greater insight on it.
No, but when he said that's as dead as you're ever going to be, the ecstasy that I felt that I still can't properly describe in words, honestly, this incredible, wonderful feeling that I felt is as dead as I'm ever going to be.
In other words, death will mimic or go beyond even that.
Okay, I sort of mostly concur with what you're saying.
As I said, when I was younger, I had a large amount of autobiography experiences, and it was very pleasant once you overcome the shock of it, the almost trauma, tranquil experience, because you can pretty much go anywhere by sheer thought.
And once you realize that you're not in any jeopardy, it's a very sort of, I guess, it's a profound altered state that makes you really ponder yourself and who you are and where you're going.
There does seem to be a body of evidence, Dr. Charles Tart at UC Davis, has done some of the most remarkable research strongly suggesting that something quasi-tangible can be detected by perhaps animals or instrumentation, and certainly that we can bring back objective information remote from our body.
Oh, look, there are so many guests I have on Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
They have actually documented people who have left their bodies, gone to other states, seen things that have then been absolutely verified, that could not possibly have been known in any other way.
I mean, there's a lot of documented evidence about this.
But again, this is something that's done while we're alive.
But why wouldn't I should say the reason I agree with what you said earlier is that I believe that the out-of-body experience is probably as close as we can come conceptually to what it's like to not have our body anymore.
And there may be an analogy to death, but the only difference is that there's no body to come back to.
The West of the Rockies line, if you want to pick up the phone and ask a question about a very wide area of inquiry, as you can see, we are having a very indeed wide area of inquiry.
West of the Rockies, it is 1-800-618-8255.
That's 1-800-618-8255.
Or east of the Rockies, anywhere east of the Rockies, and this includes Canada as well, 1-800-825-5033.
1-800-825-5033.
And I would be particularly interested in any of you who have evidence or what you think is evidence of life after death, relatives who have died, that sort of thing.
This is going to be an eternal, I don't know if I ought to use that word.
Anyway, it's going to be an area of inquiry for me during the rest of my life on Earth.
I guarantee that, as Dr. Taft just said.
So any questions you have, we'd be glad to take your calls.
And glad you're out there on broadcast.com.
You can also catch us actually doing the show on the website on the studio cam, which I've got up right now.
Once again, here I am, and we will ask Dr. Taff in a moment about his book, and I've got several faxes here.
One available line west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
And somebody is about to comment, you'll hear it in the facts, on the pet situation.
That one absolutely, if you're a cat person, I'm sure that one blew you away.
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All right, back now to back, well, not quite back to my guest, back to my guest in a moment.
I'm Mark Bell, and you're listening to Treamlight.
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All right, now back to Dr. Taft.
Doctor, welcome back.
Pleasure to be here.
Here's somebody who expresses my feelings.
Hello, Art.
I hope you're feeling better.
I am, thank you.
In response to the pet ghost situation, I live in an old Victorian house in Alameda, California.
I have several spirits with whom I coexist peacefully.
One of my spirits is a main coon cat named Taylor.
He lived here in the flesh until 94 when he died a few months before his owner, who passed away in June of 94.
She's here, too.
Her name is Sharon.
Many times I've seen Taylor's huge, fluffy self, though somewhat transparent.
He's also rubbed against my leg, and I have not only felt it, but seen my trouser leg move.
Generally speaking, in terms of all data, I prefer to go with what I myself have recorded because especially when it comes to auditory things, there's so many variables and there's so many ways to misconstrue and misinterpret information.
I like it if it's my recorder or my instrument, my microphone, my tape.
The other problem is we live in a day and age, and it is proven to me every day by these computer whizzes out there who send me photographs of myself with aliens and ghosts.
And frankly, they're better than a lot of the purported true ghost photographs or alien photographs.
Ah, I'm glad you brought that up because several times, Doctor, I have put photographs up of things that I knew to be absolutely authentic, either because I took them myself or because they occurred to me.
And I put them up, and even totally authentic things, you will get somebody who will say, I took out my Photoshop number six or whatever, and I went down to pixel number 597, and I saw a gray shaded area on the right, your photograph is a fake.
Now, that comes even when the photographs are genuine.
So we have this day and age where nothing is believed.
Right, and you can go through your site and go directly to NetBooks, and you can download the book instead of for $24 for $9.95.
And it's got the photographs and the captioning, and it's got 15 chapters and an introduction, and it covers many of the cases we've talked of today in much greater depth.
And in the other case, in fact, there's a lengthy discussion of the entity case far beyond what was originally published.
I took the original article and updated it with a preface and an afterword.
And about what happened to the woman afterward, all the rumors and speculation about who she was and everything, and why the movie didn't accurately reflect the book, and how the book didn't accurately reflect the reality.
And so it's a much broader view of the case and gives a different perspective than has been really looked at before.
Well, for one reason, probably back to the dawn of human civilization, most cultures have reported phenomena beyond just paranormal, but reported odd arrow forms.
And these weren't meteorites or comets.
These were objects that, for all intents and purposes, resemble modern UFOs.
Goes back to pre-biblical times, actually.
But beyond that, the amount of evidence that's been collected for the last half century and documented in books and periodicals and journals is awesome.
But even more than that, as I said, many of our cases, we've had a plethora of cases that began as poltergeist manifestations and ended up as an abduction or CE3, or began as an abduction and ended up as a poltergeist case.
Well, I asked you earlier if you thought in our lifetimes we might break through the barrier of life and death, and you said no.
What if I were to ask you, do you think in our lifetimes we will begin to get answers or get answers regarding all of these things that fly in our skies, abduct, make crop circles, whatever it is they're doing?
Although, the government, I recall Hazel O'Leary walking out and saying we've been lying to you for half a century or near it, and that there were experiments where plutonium was intentionally given to people.
Why would they elect officials if we are the result of someone else's experiments and these and our leaders cannot protect us, or our sky, assuming there's protection even needed, but cannot even safeguard us against invasion or lack of, I guess you'd say, yeah, invasion of strange aero forms.
Well, then why should we bother to pay the money every year?
Or, and this goes back to the comments earlier, I think our religious institutions would face radical revision regarding if we're not made in God's image, if we're made in some reptilian humanoid somewhere, some light years away decided let's play with pre-humans on Earth and produce humans.
And this were revealed, if this were true, that wouldn't have a humbling effect on most people.
In chapter 10, I go into this, but it's called UFOs the bottom line.
I get into this in depth about what's going on.
And basically, if you knew that the information you were going to disseminate to the people would devastate them and leave them self-negated, would you do it?
What's the point?
You're trying to keep the society functional and whole and integrated.
If I lay down on a couch, you'll jump and you'll hear them on the vinyl and they'll walk across it and they want to just sit down like they always did.
Or at night, they'll come up and they'll pop up on the bed, and each one always used to have a place of its own.
Well, that's a good scientifically based question.
Doctor, what about that?
I mean, if you've got an entity, human or animal, that is obviously present and you want to try to document this somehow, want to try to photograph, what would you try?
Again, being a cat person, I lost one cat, and I've never had a cat jump on me or knead on me that was a ghost of a cat, and I don't know that I want that, but I've had very strong feelings that my cat, whose name was Yesu, has been present or around me or near me.
Now, that could be a manifestation of my own wishful thinking and my mind, because I love that cat so much.
Well, see, it's very common, Ark, for people who lose someone close to them, whether that be a pet or it be a loved one, you know, husband, wife, father, mother, sister, brother, to really feel they're around, whether they be or not, simply because it's normal to have those feelings.
In fact, it's abnormal not to have those feelings.
So the question is, are those feelings just because we're human and we want that bond to be maintained, or is it because something is present?
And that's the million-dollar question, as we've said.
Oh, yeah, over the years, in lectures I've given, in classes I've taught, they've come forward and made their points clear to me or their views clear to me.
Well, they say that if there were such things as ghosts or aliens, it would have to be manifestations of God or the devil.
And since there is no such thing as God or the devil, there is no phenomena.
So again, it's faulty logic.
Their reasoning isn't very clear.
But, you know, it's hard really.
I don't waste a lot of my time and energy dealing with debunkers or these hardcore skeptics or people that have no open mind.
In other words, their mind's made up.
They don't want to deal with the facts.
Because, you know, I mean, one debunker I was talking to on one show I was on, a TV show, you know, he said, no matter what evidence you bring me or brought me, no matter what I observed, I know this phenomenon doesn't exist.
I go, then why are you here?
You're not here to debate it.
You're here to tell everyone that you don't believe.
And, you know, I mean, I made it clear on the show that, you know, I understand how science functions, replicating your data in controlled environments.
And, you know, the replicability of the whole thing.
When I said if this phenomena worked in accordance with the scientific method per se, we'd either and it never occurred, we wouldn't be discussing it.
If it occurred all the time, again, it'd be no mystery, be part of our world.
The fact that it occurs some of the time and not all the time tells us one very important thing, and that is we're ignorant.
We're ignorant about a very powerful and dramatic aspect of the world we live in.
In other words, if we were smart enough, sensitive enough to this phenomenon, it would be your view that we would see its manifestation virtually any time.
Well, if if it all if we could make it work as reliable as the rest of our senses are, as reliably as the rest of our senses are, it'd be an established part of our world.
If no one ever had these experiences, it was just like a vacuous land of nothing.
Again, there'd be nothing to contest.
The fact that it occurs some of the time, not all the time, tells us that we're missing out on something.
We would find out somehow there is a barrier, there is something over there, but we don't yet quite know what it is, but we can declare there is something.
You're right.
In the short term, that would probably turn a whole lot of people toward religion.
We're out of time.
Doctor, thank you.
I hope lots of people go up online and download your book.
And as always, we'll have you on again.
Thank you so very much.
It's my pleasure, Art.
All right.
Take care.
Dr. Barry Tapp, that's it, folks.
Out of time.
Thank you.
From an area near Dreamland.
Good night.
This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience, not easily nor neatly put in a box.
Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not matched.
Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.