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April 6, 1998 - Art Bell

03:42:00

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Cities On Mars - Richard C. Hoagland

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	And there's so much information to get to you that we are going to begin in the first
	It is, of course, Richard C. Hoagland, who is a former museum space science curator, a former NASA consultant, and during the historic follow missions to the moon was science advisor to Walter Cronkite and CBS News.
	For the past 19 years, Richard has been leading an outside scientific team in a critically acclaimed independent analysis of possible, listen very closely, possible intelligently designed artifacts on NASA and other data sets, beginning with the unmanned NASA Viking mission to Mars back in 1976 and its provocative images of a region called Cydonia.
	Of course, the face.
	In 1993, Hoagland was awarded the International Angstrom Medal for Excellence in Science by the Angstrom Foundation in Stockholm, Sweden, for that continuing research.
	The past four years, he and his team's investigations have been quietly extended to include over 30 years of previously hidden data from NASA, Soviet, and Pentagon missions to the Moon.
	With startling results.
	And startling is certainly the word that would be appropriate for what he is going to say tonight.
	It lies directly ahead.
	Well, this is going to be one of the perhaps most startling programs we've ever done.
	With some pretty serious information in it about Mars.
	And I'm not sure how else to begin other than to say That's the reason we're starting in the first hour, because of the gravity of the show.
	Here from the mountains of New Mexico is Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard, welcome.
	Good evening, Art.
	Good evening.
	What's up with that?
	Thank you.
	This show has been, I guess, cooking, or you've been developing the material for this, for how long?
	This has been in the oven for at least a month.
	At least a month.
	Right.
	And a couple times we came very close to coming on the program and publishing our results.
	And each time we had good reason to pause, go back and recheck numbers and sources and data and integrity and tonight, finally, I mean, we've got to give birth to this baby or else I'm not going to be around much longer.
	I understand.
	Let's give some birth here.
	In other words, first, before we even begin down the trail of how you got to where you are, what is the bottom line?
	Are we, are you saying that there are Architectural designs.
	There is some sort of irrefutable proof of cities, I don't know if that's the right word, cities, urban type development, kind of like what they're talking about off the coast of Cuba, on Mars, and that you've uncovered this information with the new IR color data.
	Is that the bottom line?
	That's the bottom line.
	And in fact, it's very eerie you should bring up the Cuba, you know, ruins.
	Because we have found these roughly at the same depth under Cydonia that the Cuban ruins were found by Paulina Zolitsky off Cuba.
	That's 2,200 feet.
	Roughly half a mile down.
	Now, the reason that I'm on the show tonight and the reason we're publishing, we over at Enterprise have a We have the press release.
	We sent out a press release to 4,000 members of the mainstream press all over the world today.
	I've got a copy of the press release here.
	It's like seven pages long.
	Well, five pages long.
	It's five pages with background, but obviously the important stuff is in the first two or three paragraphs.
	We have been working on this ever since this audience, your audience, while you were On vacation.
	Working very hard with the leadership of George in that chair.
	And George does really a damn good job.
	He certainly does.
	He was able to get enough people to email and fax NASA and the folks at the ASU, Arizona State University, the project leadership of the Mars Odyssey mission, which is currently orbiting Mars tonight, to basically get kicked loose a daytime color infrared image of Cydonia.
	After months and months and months and months and months of foot-dragging and excuses, and, oh, the dog ate it, and, oh, it's not processed, and it's not calibrated, and it's on my dining room table, but I forgot to bring it in.
	I mean, everything possible, this audience, these people out there listening to us tonight, Art, stepped up to the plate one more time, with feeling, and did what good Americans do in the clinch.
	They made their voices heard, and they got something.
	Now, For a lot of this, initially, in the first few hours after we saw it posted on the website at ASU on July 24th of this year, which is a little over a month ago, we thought we'd been had once again.
	What do you mean?
	Well, because what we had demanded, what we'd asked for, was the nighttime infrared image of Cydonia.
	Okay.
	My sources, and we'll get into this much later in the evening, much more heavily later in the evening, in Washington have told me unequivocally that what we really want to see, if after tonight you think you've seen anything on the daytime images, Wait till you see the nighttime because that's where the payoff is.
	That's where the big prize that I've been looking for now for 20 some years, namely the unequivocal proof of the ruins of an extraterrestrial civilization on Mars apparently lie.
	You have the nighttime IR?
	No, we know that it exists and we're going to use everyone out there tonight to get it.
	Alright, but to what degree of certainty, with regard to the photographs you've got now, the daytime color IR photographs, to what degree of certainty can you sit here tonight and declare you have found architectural ruins on Mars?
	With the provision that the data we are looking at is real, which I'll get into in the next hour or so, I would say that my confidence level is now 99.9999999%.
	In other words, I think it's there.
	And there are a whole bunch of reasons that we're going to go through all the tests we've done, all the cross-checking, all the The various inter-scene viewings we've done, all of this comes up that we're looking at real data, and what's really there is there.
	And I would like to also add, in the next hour, we're going to bring on the NASA-associated man who supplied you with these images, is that correct?
	Precisely, because what makes this so extraordinary, Art, is this data did not come to us directly.
	It was filtered through a trusted colleague, who has been working for a year or two with the NASA Ames Mars Web Program doing image processing for them as part of this worldwide virtual Mars network that they've set up for investigators to plug into NASA data anywhere in the world.
	And as part of that system, he has established a lot of contacts with the NASA Ames people, with people at Washington, other NASA centers, with Dr. Malin and his group, And it was to him that this image actually was lovingly and cherishedly bequeathed, not to us.
	And we believe that this was part of someone's plan to give the data, the pristine, stunning, real, seamless, infrared data of Cydonia, not to Hoagland & Company, who instantly would be accused of making everything up because, of course, we want it to be real, But to someone that was one of their own, someone that it would be a little harder to accuse of fabrication, of fraud, of hoax, etc., etc., as the spin doctors will go to work, and you know they will.
	Well, so why don't I ask you right away, to what degree are you certain that you have not been hoaxed?
	That's a very important question.
	Yep.
	Well, again, within the limits of the information we are able to wrest from NASA on these images.
	I don't need as many decimal points here.
	They are not forthcoming at all about even the heritage of the images that they have published.
	There's no ancillary data for any of the images up on the Odyssey website tonight.
	There's no sun angle, there's no orbit numbers, there's no even day when they take the pictures.
	The pictures that are up there are the day they are released.
	They could be I am extraordinarily confident because of the way this image was acquired, and we're going to go into that in exquisite detail.
	The processing steps that were applied to it, we're going to go into that in great detail.
	And the character and integrity of the individual who got it, namely Keith Laney, and we'll go into that in detail.
	Okay.
	Keith Laney, then, is the man associated with NASA, and what does he do?
	He works on the East Coast.
	He lives in Charlotte, North Carolina, not far from where my old homestead used to be.
	Right.
	He is an independent contractor.
	He does image processing.
	He's been a member of the anomalous community, meaning he's looked at Moon data and Mars data, whatever, for years and years and years.
	And as I said in the last year or so, he was accepted by the NASA program at NASA Ames to work on data for them in preparation for the unmanned rover landings on Mars in 2004.
	Okay, so he's doing serious work for NASA.
	Exactly.
	He's seriously trusted by NASA and I can announce tonight that he went to his bosses there And ask them if they would be interested in publishing the data we are publishing tonight ourselves.
	Yes.
	And they said yes.
	So NASA will publish... NASA aims, the Marder Whip program... Is going to publish what everybody is going to see tonight.
	What everyone is seeing and what Keith is going to come on in the next hour and discuss in great detail how he acquired it.
	Alright.
	Back to your central question.
	What do we see?
	What is down there?
	Yep.
	The whole reason for taking an infrared picture is because it isn't a black and white.
	It isn't a surface scan.
	It isn't looking merely at the top of Mars.
	But if you pick the right band, if you pick the right wavelength, You basically can get penetration into and beneath the surface of another planet.
	All right.
	Infrared photography, Richard, looks for heat signatures or looks for difference in heat.
	In other words, if there's something... It depends on the band.
	If there's something... Well, right.
	But generally, that's the... Well, if you're looking at shortwave infrared, it's basically light a little longer in wavelength than is reflection.
	Uh-huh.
	The band Themis, which stands for Thermal Emission Imaging System.
	You pegged it.
	This is a camera which is looking at heat being emitted by objects.
	Right.
	So for those who don't understand, how you might see an object beneath the surface of Mars would be a delta, a difference between the heat on the surface and the heat beneath the surface.
	Exactly.
	That's what it's looking at and that's how it's developing.
	Well, plus, Mars has a unique environment, and I think tonight, as we go through this, you're going to find that if Mars were not the place it is, and had the unique history it has, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, because I don't think even the NASA people, even the Themis team understands, fully understands, although there is some indication from an abstract The principal investigator of the Themis camera, Dr. Christensen, published this afternoon in Washington prior to the October DPS meeting, which is a major scientific meeting, a division of planetary sciences that is held every year.
	He said that on other data taken by this camera since February, they've been in operation orbiting Mars, taking these kinds of infrared images since February of this year, February 18th.
	They have now found evidence of subterranean Submarzian?
	Sub-Aryan?
	Valley networks of rivers.
	That are not visible on either the Viking image or the Mars Global Surveyor.
	Alright, well that makes sense.
	Water would be a different temperature.
	No, no, no, no, no, no.
	These are dry valley networks.
	These are empty.
	These don't have water in them.
	Yeah, I know, but the IR signature still would be looking at a slightly different temperature.
	What the IR is doing, this is crucial to our case for Cydonia.
	If it's looking through the upper layers of the Martian dirt.
	Sure.
	On Mars, it isn't dirt.
	You made it, you used a term last night, which I thought was so incredibly appropriate.
	Your first night back, you used a term that you had no idea was going to be relevant to tonight.
	You used the term poof dust or poof dirt.
	Poof dirt, yeah, we've got it out here.
	Well, on Mars, you have trillions of cubic meters of it.
	It hasn't rained on Mars in literally millions If not more years.
	How much goof dirt is in the Cydonia region?
	According to, and this is going to really blow people's minds, according to an independent instrument on another spacecraft that everybody except us had forgot, the laser, the laser pinger?
	Yes.
	The device that is actually doing profile, or was up until the instrument broke a few months ago, doing profiling around Mars?
	Yes.
	The depth of the basin in which this city lies is almost as deep under Cydonia as the Grand Canyon.
	Wow.
	And the pinger, the laser used to do the profiles, is 10.6 microns.
	The images that we're looking at range from 6.62 to 12.58.
	So the laser is in the infrared, the thermal infrared, in the middle of the precise wave band we're looking at with these pictures.
	And so what we're seeing with the laser, in terms of bottom profiling, is apparently going down through an enormous amount of extraordinarily dry and finely divided dust.
	Poof dirt.
	Poof dirt!
	With not water vapor, Or nitrogen, or oxygen, but basically nothing but carbon dioxide.
	All right, let me ask this, Richard.
	What is creating the difference in temperature at the artifacts you claim you found from the poof?
	Oh, you want to get it all out in the first hour, huh?
	I just want to understand, technically, how you're... Our initial model was... ...confident about these images.
	We are very confident, as you can see.
	Our initial model was, we're looking at stuff that's warmed By the sun.
	Mars is very cold, particularly in the Northern Hemisphere at this time of year, because it's basically just spring.
	Right.
	So the background is really, really, really cold.
	And how cold is it?
	Like 130, 150 degrees below zero.
	Very cold.
	Very cold.
	Okay.
	So you have sunlight, which at Mars is roughly a quarter of sunlight here.
	But during the day, from dawn to dusk, it will warm things up.
	and then at night they'll cool off.
	How warm?
	Well, the actual ground rock temperatures probably get up to maybe 20 below zero.
	So it goes from 130 below at night to 20 below zero on the ground during the winter and spring.
	In the summer, at the equator, the temperature on Mars can go up to like 70.
	70 or 80 degrees?
	80 degrees ground temperature.
	Now remember, the air is... But in the area of question, the Cydonia region.
	Yep.
	Which is New York's latitude on Mars.
	31 degrees north latitude.
	It's going to range between minus 170 or so and minus 20?
	4150 at night, alright, to maybe minus 2030 in the daytime.
	Okay.
	Right now.
	Okay, so now I want to understand how it allows This difference to be seeing through this incredible amount of poof dirt.
	Why is the temperature different below?
	Well, the first model, when we were looking at this, and we'll go into how we tripped over all this, we thought we were looking at structures that were basically sitting underneath the poof dirt, the dust.
	I mean, this is finer than talcum powder.
	This stuff is pulverized, pulverized, And no one, I think, even the NASA people, have appreciated how it will drift and sit and stay in deep valleys and canyons.
	This is why Dr. Richardson is seeing these ancient river networks.
	Oh, I have no problem whatsoever believing that.
	I mean, when I told you I have poof dirt out here, and there are areas in the valley here where the poof dirt is like quicksand, Richard.
	You drop a screwdriver or throw it a little bit, it goes poof, and it disappears, just like something went into quicksand.
	And so, This is probably a hundred to a thousand times worse.
	That's here on Earth.
	Okay, I can understand how that could occur.
	And it's because Mars hasn't had any water for so long.
	Understood.
	With the exception of that which we've discovered underneath Mars, in Mars.
	That is frozen.
	That has not been released in a hydrological cycle.
	There's no rain clouds or thunderstorms on Mars.
	Right, but now get to it.
	How is there a difference?
	Well, the first model we had was that the sunlight, infrared energy, heat energy from the sun, was warming stuff up underneath the poof dirt during the day.
	And as it warmed it up, it would warm it up differentially.
	In other words, things that are dark will absorb more energy than things that are light.
	Makes sense, right?
	And then they would begin to radiate their own heat.
	And that would come back up through the dust.
	All right, all of that makes sense, but... To the infrared camera, the dust is almost as transparent as glass.
	It doesn't see the dust particles, because the wavelength of energy is so long, it diffracts around the dust.
	Isn't it critical to understand whether that heating can occur to the depth that you're talking about?
	That's the crucial question.
	Okay.
	So the more we looked at this, and if you look in detail at the images, and you match them with the MOLA profiles, We have a shallow area north of the face on Mars.
	Remember, this is the region of the infamous face.
	The shallow region is only a few hundred feet below the surface.
	The region below the face, to the south of it, across that basin, is down to 3,000 feet arc below the surface that we see.
	My God.
	And I started working the other night with Ron Nix, who's our... Now I think I just understood why you want the night photographs.
	Because at night, the surface cools.
	The differential between that which you're trying to see and the surface is much greater.
	Exactly.
	The signal-to-noise, or the haze, or the blockage, you know... Would be far less.
	It would be far less, and you'd be able to see this stuff under All right.
	I got it.
	I got it.
	Hold on, Richard.
	Be right back.
	A city.
	An entire city in the Cydonia region of Mars.
	So not only are we going... I guess saying the face is artificial, but we're saying it's part of something much, much bigger.
	An entire city beneath the surface of Mars.
	I have always been suspicious there was life on Mars.
	Billions of years ago, I have no problem grasping the concept that there may well have been life on Mars.
	Mars, we know, was a very different place.
	It had an atmosphere, it had moisture, it had water, it had all the ingredients that
	you'd need for life before something happened to Mars, and that's another argument and another
	program probably, but it certainly had the setup for life.
	No question about it.
	So could there have been an entire civilization then covered up in the manner being described
	tonight?
	Should there not be cities found?
	Actually, I've got a couple of questions, Richard.
	Shouldn't there be cities found, not just here at Cydonia, but perhaps in many regions of Mars?
	Precisely.
	The answer to that is yes, then?
	Yes.
	Right.
	And the Soviets, back in 1989, Art, with the same kind of thermal infrared camera system, they found some.
	And they published their data.
	Somebody, uh... And no one believed them.
	Fast Blasting Me from Arizona says, come on, BS.
	Thermal infrared energy can't see through more than about 100 microns of dust.
	Well, then those people don't know what they're talking about.
	Okay.
	Um, alright, um... How are you... Is there any way that you can technically substantiate the fact it could look through that much, even light dust?
	Yes, because of the laser.
	I had a long discussion this afternoon with Ron Nix, who, as you know, is one of our geologists.
	Of course.
	He's preparing a paper, technical paper on this we'll publish later in the week or maybe early next week.
	Every time we give an estimate as to how long it's going to take us to do something on this, It's just so extraordinary, and we have to check so many things, it just takes longer.
	I understand the workload must be incredible.
	Yeah, of course.
	Anyway, so Rahm and I were discussing, and he was dumbfounded by this entire panoply of evidence.
	The most striking thing to him and to me came out of a conversation that we had literally three nights ago.
	This was in the interregnum before we were going to come on the last time?
	Yes.
	What happened was a conversation with Ron.
	And I'm leading along through the imagery.
	By the way, can you get to the images?
	Oh, yes.
	OK.
	I'll call up number one.
	I have number one sitting.
	All right.
	We're talking about ARTBELL.com, the way you just go up to the website ARTBELL.com, go to program, go to tonight's guest info when you get there.
	Uh, under the name Richard C. Hoagland, which will be immediately apparent.
	Uh, you'll see images, uh, second link down, second link down, images 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
	Exactly, he's listed them, tonight listed them laterally.
	I have one on my screen.
	Click on number one.
	I've got it there.
	Alright, number one is a big, uh, composite graphic.
	It's the, the actual... It's the strip.
	...infrared images on the left.
	A composite of a portion of the infrared image and a visual image taken by Odyssey a few months ago is in the upper right.
	Down below that is the infrared image laid over the visible image of the face on Mars.
	Got it.
	And at the bottom is the portion of the infrared laid over the DNM pyramid.
	Got it.
	What is striking and what Ron and I were discussing is if you go look up the strip, and I don't know how big on your screen, Is it fairly big on your screen?
	Big enough, yeah.
	Okay.
	Do you see that pattern of strange blocks?
	Where do you want me?
	In the strip?
	Start at the top of the image.
	Yes.
	Alright?
	You see there's this rectilinear block-like pattern.
	Yes.
	It's not absolutely regular.
	If it was, we would immediately dismiss it as noise, ringing, some kind of electronic artifact.
	No, I see it.
	Regularly irregular.
	Yeah, okay.
	Do you see where the face is?
	But that's what a rock is, regularly irregular.
	Well, the image you're looking at is about 20 miles wide.
	Okay.
	And the whole strip is 125 miles long.
	Gotcha.
	This is 2,000 square miles of Martian real estate.
	Okay.
	Alright?
	Yes.
	And as you look from the top to the bottom of the image, you will see that there is a qualitative change in these
	blocks, in these rectangles.
	They appear to have little bright rims in the north of the face.
	Yes, I assume that's the IR overlay.
	That's the IR. What we're seeing is multiple colors.
	We're seeing fissures between them.
	We're seeing the tops brighter than the sides below them.
	Well, okay, that's a pretty good argument that the IR is doing what you say it's doing.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, okay.
	And the reason is that this is a very long wavelength.
	I mean, to the particles that are there, the dust particles, which are very, very tiny, this is like transparent.
	This energy goes right around them.
	Now, do you notice that there appears to be a kind of a bluish cast to the top of the image?
	Yes, I do.
	Okay.
	That's the surface materials shining by sunlight.
	And it's like looking through a frosted window.
	In other words, if you are looking at a scene through a window which is illuminated at a
	side angle and the window is scattering light, then you look through...
	The best definition would be you're looking through a windshield driving west toward the
	afternoon sun, the setting sun.
	And you haven't cleaned your windshield in about 10 years.
	You have a hell of a time as a driver if that's the case.
	Because there's a landscape out there which is being lit by sunlight, but the window is
	scattering sunlight as well.
	Okay, but Richard... And so there's a haze between you and the stuff you really want to see.
	I do understand that, but even as I look at this, help me and everybody else who's looking at this right now to differentiate between the irregular, irregular nature of rocks and geoformation and something... Keep in mind, you see the face down there.
	Ah, yeah, of course.
	The face is the strange multicolored thing with the glowing orange eye on the left.
	Yup.
	The bright hood-like thing on the right.
	Yup.
	The blue shadow on the lower right.
	All very clear.
	Okay.
	The face is about two miles square.
	Okay.
	Okay?
	Look at the size of the blocks north of it and around it.
	Uh, on, at, in which photograph?
	In, in the, in the strip photograph.
	I'm sorry, in the what?
	In the strip photograph.
	Oh, in the strip photograph.
	The one on the left.
	I've got to go find the face on the strip photograph.
	Okay, let me see if I can... Help me.
	Um, it's about the top sixth of the image.
	It's right in the middle.
	Oh, there it is.
	Okay.
	See it?
	Yep.
	Going multicolored.
	I see it.
	Now around it, you see this strange geometric pattern.
	And you can see that you've got edges to them, you've got bright rims.
	Oh, I do see that.
	And they're all oriented north, south, east, west.
	Okay, I do see that.
	Yes.
	Ron and I were discussing this, and suddenly I said, you know, the biggest thing they're going to accuse us of is simply looking at noise.
	I said, it's too bad there isn't an independent way to... and then I stopped and I said, oh my God.
	Because there was.
	Like what?
	The MOLA laser on Mars Global Surveyor.
	All right?
	Now, what I need you to do, and I don't know whether you have pre-loaded these, all right?
	I need you to go to the very last image.
	I can do that.
	The last picture.
	Uh, seven?
	Number seven.
	All right?
	I am there.
	Okay.
	Do you see the black and white picture in the upper left?
	Uh, actually, Richard, uh, on number 7, uh, well, upper left, you have black and white, sure.
	Yeah, black and white, with a colored line going kinda, kinda catty-corner across.
	Yeah, phase 4 and DNM are marked, and the line is.
	Yep, yep, and it says molar Cydonia profile.
	Fine, I see it.
	Okay, that is an actual trace of the laser on the Global Surveyor spacecraft, looking straight down, going ping, ping, ping, ping, ping.
	Gotcha.
	At the bottom of that is a graph.
	And the graph is colored.
	Oh, the dust circle.
	And if you look where the dust is, and I'll get back to why we know that's where it is in a minute, but look at your color code on the right.
	Right.
	You see the color code?
	It goes from minus 4,700 meters to minus 3,400 meters.
	Right.
	Now look at the profile.
	The face, by the way, is the little yellow blip just to the left of the big red blip.
	You see it?
	Looks like a tiny little yellow pyramid.
	On the graph.
	Yes, yes, yes, yes, I see it.
	Right, that's the face.
	Everything to the left of that is north.
	Okay.
	Everything to the right of that is south.
	Okay.
	Look at that huge basin to the south.
	Like the Grand Canyon.
	Like the Grand Canyon.
	Now look at the picture.
	Do you see that on the picture?
	Uh, no.
	The picture's flat.
	Yeah.
	As far as pancakes, as far as canons, Dorothy!
	So Ron and I are looking at this, and I said, Ron... So you're looking beneath a canyon filled with dust.
	Exactly!
	And no one, not even my dear friend Arthur C. Clarke, who wrote a brilliant novel that I always loved, about the moon, called Fall of Moondust.
	Incredible novel.
	Everybody's got to get this novel.
	Who put together this scale?
	I did.
	You did?
	Well, the scale is from MOLA.
	The scale is from the official molar project, which is... But I mean, for example, in the very darkest blue, you know you're looking down, uh, minus 4,700 feet.
	Meters!
	Meters, rather.
	Now, remember, this is relative, so what you do is you subtract it from the dust level, which is the yellow.
	Understood, yes.
	Okay.
	Now this was not, this scale is not made up by us.
	This is made up by Dr. David Smith and his colleagues at the Goddard Space Flight Center.
	All right, that's great.
	My old alma mater.
	Yep, yep.
	Who's the principal investigator on the MOLI experiment on Mars Global Surveyor.
	All right, so the guy who says you can't look past millimeters is full of it then.
	He's full of stuff, yeah.
	Obviously you can't.
	This is called science, everybody.
	All right, okay, fine.
	I'll buy that.
	But this is what's so, so wild, Art.
	Look at the details of the Mola Scam.
	Alright?
	Look really, really close.
	Where do you want me?
	Just any part of the Mola Scam.
	The original strip, you mean?
	No, no, no.
	The actual graph.
	The graph.
	Okay, yes.
	What about it?
	What do you see?
	You see structure.
	You see that it's not a continuous line.
	It goes up and down in stair steps.
	It absolutely does, but why am I not to believe that's just a canyon-like geologic setup?
	Well, why would a canyon-like geologic setup on Mars, where it hasn't rained in God knows how long, and it's supposed to be wind-scoured, why wouldn't it be smooth as a baby's you-know-what?
	Why would it have stair-step profiles?
	Why would it have in the vis image, in the un-visible, in the famous image, go back to strip number one, if you now match This is not Earth.
	Mars.
	What you need to do is reorient yourself just a little bit.
	But Richard, let's consider Earth for a second.
	This is not Earth.
	I know that.
	But in our present climate, Mars did once have, you know, atmosphere and a lot of things
	it doesn't have now, like water.
	A long, long time ago.
	A long time ago.
	Yep.
	But Richard, in the, if you, consider the Grand Canyon.
	Good example, right?
	Or, uh, maybe the Teton... No, Grand Canyon's better.
	Go ahead and consider the Grand Canyon.
	If, uh, Earth had a catastrophic event, and the Grand Canyon were to fill up with dust blowing from wind, uh, which is, you know, after some, I don't know, after something hits a planet or something awful catastrophic happens, why couldn't I imagine the Grand Canyon filling With dust.
	Oh, you could?
	And it looking at IR just about the way this looks here.
	Well, because there's no structure down.
	There's no rock structure that would give you this rectilinear pattern.
	These kind of patterns in terrestrial geology are very limited.
	They're usually mud cracking.
	They're on a very small scale.
	They're not on this vast scale.
	They're not on the scale of Los Angeles.
	I mean, we're looking at an area here the size of the Los Angeles Basin.
	This is like you flew over Los Angeles and took a thermal infrared picture.
	Well, I'll say it one more time.
	This second image, image number two of the seven, is astounding.
	And I'm wondering if the rest of you are seeing it the way I am.
	I'll be damned if this doesn't look like a suburb.
	You know, it could be factories.
	It could be homes.
	It could be a combination thereof.
	It could be L.A.
	question richard um... let me tell you how we produced it again this was done in a very unusual way for us
	it was done on the way to literally two thousand miles between here and and
	north carolina and the primary hero here tonight is keith laney by the way
	just before we get to keep uh... indulge me for one second richard uh...
	above on the international line from uh... i don't know where it was
	someplace in great britain right
	uh... right now You had a comment.
	What is your first name, sir?
	My name is Jeff.
	I'm calling from Watford in England.
	Okay.
	I've made an observation.
	I've seen the image number two, and it does seem to show something rectilinear subsurface.
	The curious thing to me, though, is it is actually parallel to the edges of the image.
	Now, if this is the full image, it would strike me that this isn't the first infrared image they've taken.
	I mean, It could be coincidental, but how would it be lined up unless you had a prior image?
	Richard?
	Well, because we have tilted the image, this is not the raw image, this has been rotated 7.2 degrees in the computer, and Keith will explain what he did.
	Okay.
	Because the actual images were released in a tilted format, nine band, side by side, and if you look at the image number one, the back arch image number one, you see that tilted line at the top?
	Uh, yes.
	That's the way the image actually was, that line was parallel to the top of the image frame when they published it.
	Gotcha.
	And we rotated it so that you could look at things up and down.
	In fact, the orbit of the spacecraft is three degrees to north-south on Mars.
	So the actual alignment of these structures is not to the orbit, but just a little bit off, It appears to be north-south on Mars.
	Alright, so there's nothing then, uh, to echo what this gentleman said?
	Nope, nope, nope.
	Okay.
	Now let me, let me go in there a minute before we bring Keith on as to how we did this.
	You're back to image number one?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	The left-hand, uh, strip is what's called a color, false color, de-correlated stretch version of six of the image bands of the eight that they released.
	There are actually nine bands on the original data, but two of them are duplicates because of signal-to-noise technical issues.
	Yes.
	So you have eight bands of infrared data.
	Okay.
	Eight colors would be another way of looking at it.
	All right.
	And as Keith will explain, the way you have to work with this multispectral data, because it isn't black and white, it isn't visual imagery, is very different than we usually use with black and white images.
	Sure.
	We learned a phenomenal amount And actually got very cozy with a very big company called Kodak and a division of theirs called Research Systems, Inc.
	that provided him and Enterprise for, in a definite period, what I have been laughingly calling the Lexus of imaging programs.
	It's a program called NV3.5, which is about a $7,000 computer program.
	And it's this state-of-the-art program which allows you to basically do all this with point-and-click.
	And tutorials, and I mean, it's basically applying a 747 as if you've never flown one before, but you're a grandmaster at it.
	And it was this software and their tutorials and Keith's very bright learning curve that allowed him to come up the curve and to produce the day that we were talking about tonight.
	All right.
	Keith is coming to us.
	Keith Laney is coming to us from Charlotte, North Carolina.
	Is that correct?
	Richard?
	Yes.
	And he is, uh, you want to give, tell me exactly who he, well let's let him tell us.
	Why don't we let him, before we get to him though, I wanted to make one more comment about the image.
	Yeah.
	The image you're so blown away about, the one where you can look like basically L.A.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	I want to say two things about it.
	Look at number one, you see the, the correlated color version on the left.
	Yes.
	On the right, you see another color version.
	If you look at the very top, you'll see it's really two images.
	Alright?
	Underlying is the color image on the left, and over top of it he has very carefully superimposed a black and white Odyssey image of Cydonia taken, or rather released, on April 12th, 13th.
	I see it.
	Yeah, I can see the overlay, right.
	And when you do that, L.A.
	pops out.
	That's all we did.
	Make those buildings appear.
	Now, let me go back to the number two image for a second.
	The key question I've had from the beginning, in fact, I was the one that basically said at some point, I don't think we're looking at noise.
	I think we're looking at real structures down there.
	They all kicked in the screen and said, oh, come on, Richard.
	No, it doesn't look like noise.
	Richard, um... Well, let me make one more point.
	Okay, but this really is important.
	I said it at the beginning of the hour.
	I want to have some estimation of the scale of the objects that we're seeing.
	I was reading your mind.
	Okay.
	If you look on the upper left of the image number two, that is the fort.
	That is our familiar fort of Cydonia.
	Alright.
	The multi-colors, by the way, are important.
	The colors on a de-correlated image correspond to composition, primarily.
	Okay, fine.
	Again, Richard, of these things... Alright, on the side of the fort.
	You see that straight wall?
	Yes.
	It's about a mile long.
	So you're looking at things that are about the size of city blocks.
	Big city blocks.
	Big city blocks.
	Now keep in mind, this is Mars.
	The gravity currently is one-third that of Earth.
	We have always assumed in our work, we've never really talked about it, that if we were dealing with Martians, we were dealing with big Martians.
	Because of the lesser gravity and several other factors that will be in the sequel to Monuments.
	So, uh, clearly said they would build big.
	Big!
	And Ron and I actually went through some calculations the other night, you know, comparing things we built that are big, like Mount Rushmore and all that.
	It's all proportional.
	There's nothing here that is untoward in terms of the model that we're looking at some relatives of the human species.
	Remember, I've always said... You know, for the first time, Richard, I'm willing to look at this and I'm willing to say, clearly, if this is real, then this is architecture.
	This could not possibly be artificial.
	This is not a bunch of rocks like I'm usually seeing.
	What I'm looking at here is architectural It's not natural.
	It's a gosh darn city.
	That's what number two is.
	It's a city, and there's no question about it.
	Look, let's get Keith Laney on here.
	Well, let me make one more point.
	But he's waiting.
	Go ahead, Richard.
	We've all waited a month here.
	Let me make this point, please.
	If you look at the fort, you'll see that to the south of it there's a bunch of architectural looking things.
	Yes.
	But they are contiguous with the structure of the fort that's sticking up above the dust.
	I'll buy that, yeah.
	This was my key indicator because if this pattern, if as you said a moment ago, if some wacky grad student at ASU had basically pulled a huge hoax on us here.
	Yeah.
	And stuck an aerial photograph of LA over a Themis image.
	Yeah.
	It wouldn't know to respect the objects that are above the dust that we've been looking
	at for the last 20 years.
	No, I will agree with you that it's contiguous.
	That is a crucial part of the model because the stuff underneath respects the stuff on top.
	Yeah, I'm with you.
	And that's what real architecture would do. And with that, here is Keith Laney.
	All right, here is Keith Laney.
	Keith, welcome to the program.
	Hey, how you doing, Art?
	Well, I'm actually blown away.
	Yeah, well, your reaction when I heard you a few minutes ago, I was like, yeah, this is exactly how I felt when I first processed this image and it popped out on me when I opened it.
	Did it hit you the same way?
	Oh, Lord, I was scared to death.
	Yes, Jeff.
	I've been looking at anomalies for a long time, kind of hardcore, and it's something to scare me to death.
	It's got to be shocking.
	Keith, tell us who you are and what your association with NASA is, please.
	Oh, well, I'm Keith Laney from Charlotte, North Carolina, down here in Mayberry, good Andy Griffith territory.
	But I've been looking at these images for, oh God, several years now.
	And based on my processing skills, I sent some pictures to Marsweb.
	And they liked the results and asked me if I would do their mock archives.
	Because basically Malin just handed them the raw data.
	They didn't really know what to do with it, so... You know, I did the whole archive for them at Mars Web, if you go there and check it out.
	How long have you been doing that work for them?
	Oh gosh...
	Probably slightly over a year.
	Slightly over a year then, in the employ of NASA.
	Oh, now see, now give me here, I volunteered for this.
	I didn't, nobody pays me anything.
	I don't get a paycheck with any kind of NASA symbol on it.
	Alright, so you are not an official NASA employee.
	Oh no.
	Alright.
	But they take my work.
	They take your work.
	Yes, I mean.
	Alright.
	And I volunteer readily because I love this subject.
	Alright, how did you get this image?
	How did I get this image?
	Well, I was listening to Richard the night that this image came out.
	And you know, we all went over and looked at it, the famous fight.
	And I looked at it and I thought, oh my God.
	See, I didn't know what it was.
	I thought, oh my God, this thing sucks.
	You know, it's really terrible.
	Okay, well, you know, unbeknownst to us, we had some ASU guys hanging out on our bulletin board.
	They have you as Arizona State University, all right?
	They're the prime contractor for the Themis camera on the Odyssey mission.
	Okay.
	Well, you know, they came out with... I didn't even download the image that night.
	When I first found it, I looked at it.
	You know, I didn't even want to look at it any further.
	But the next day, I thought, well, you know, I might be a little harsh.
	You know, I might have been a little harsh about that.
	And so I went back to the site, looked at it again.
	that it was still terrible but I downloaded it and stored it away forgot about it you know and
	then I'm getting on the bulletin board the next couple days and the reaction to me saying that
	and you know and Richard echoing it on your show um and obviously brought the hornets out of the
	woodwork and uh they came out on the bulletin board saying that this image shows nothing about
	Cydonia is particular and uh you know we were looking at this terrible image and I had to react
	What in the world are you talking about?
	How do you know this?
	You know?
	We haven't even done anything to the images yet.
	And, uh, basically it just challenged me to go back.
	You know, it kept goading me, goading me, until finally I started processing some of these.
	Because, I mean, gosh, I've been doing this for a long time and there's nothing that I can't learn about doing it.
	This is a very important part of the story.
	In fact, it's the most important part, I think, of this entire mystery.
	About a month before this image was released, a gentleman showed up at the Enterprise Electronic Conference called BAMF, B-A-M-F, which is obviously a screen name, a pseudonym, and he began posting.
	In fact, he posted some peculiar threads, one of which was called, uh, where's the science happen around here?
	Very provocative, very in your face.
	He turns out to be none other than a gentleman named Noel Gorelick, who is the manager...
	Of the famous ASU Mars Computation Center, which literally is working with Dr. Christensen as part of the team, with 14 programmers under him.
	How do you know it's him?
	Because Dr. Christensen, in an email to us, acknowledged that Noel Gorlick is who this guy is.
	He admitted it to me, too.
	Okay.
	And he admitted it to everybody.
	And the ISPs check, and where he logs on, and all this.
	So, no, this is the guy.
	He started hanging out at Enterprise a month before this image came to light, before it was released.
	And he stayed and stayed and stayed.
	And he sent all kinds of private emails.
	He's posted all kinds of material on the website.
	He's engaged in long, complicated chats with various people.
	And he picked out certain people like Keith and a gentleman in Germany called Holger Eisenberg and a couple of others to begin giving kind of private tutorials Yes.
	So he wanted you to get this.
	infrared multi-spectral data.
	So he wanted you to get this.
	So I'm looking at this, you know me, I'm the political cynic of the bunch.
	Yes.
	I think NASA wouldn't know a straight answer if it bit them.
	And I was looking at this complicated setup and I'm thinking, what is going on here?
	So when Keith related to me the next part of the story he's about to tell you, the light bulb kind of went on and I said, oh, so that's the game.
	Go ahead, Keith.
	Okay, let's see, where were we at now?
	You were being goaded by BAM.
	Hold it, one at a time, Keith.
	I started processing these images.
	I went to the Kodak place and I downloaded their MB software and I asked them nicely, could I use it, you know, use their valuation full version.
	I told them what I was going to do with it, and they basically just granted me the use of it.
	So I went into the tutorials, learned how to do them, learned what IR imaging was, and one thing I learned that was important was that the visual acuity of this image does not account for its infrared sensitivity.
	Okay, in other words, when you're looking at this black and white image, you're not seeing all the data that's there.
	You're seeing it in grayscale images, and you can't see that many grayscales.
	That's right.
	Okay, so I'm sitting here, and I'm processing these images, and it's, of course, you have to ratio the bands together, and then you have to combine them in red, green, and blue.
	So I'm sitting here and I do my first image and I'm going, wow, these blocks all pop out at me and I'm seeing this city pattern.
	And you know, the funny thing about the city pattern, where the stuff sticks up, I mean, where there's no dust over it.
	You can see several of the areas on the picture where there's no dust, there's no blocks.
	Yeah.
	But where the dust is piled up, you see the blocks.
	Where there's no dust, you actually see the structure up above the surface.
	That's right.
	And so I'm looking at this, and these guys from ASU are on here saying there's nothing peculiar, you know.
	And I contacted Noel Gorlick in private chat one night, and I said, hey man, you know, what are these blocks on here?
	And he's telling me, oh, so you found the secret, huh?
	Huh?
	Oh, so you found the secret?
	Yeah, you found the secret.
	Okay, and they were looking for some type of way to take them off and asked me about my mock processing software.
	What?
	No, no, no, what, what, what, what, what, what?
	They wanted to take them off?
	Yeah, they wanted to take them off.
	Alright.
	They told me that they were some type of... One at a time.
	Hold it, hold it.
	Keith, this is very important.
	What you're saying is a very serious charge, really.
	Well, I mean, actually, if they thought they were noise, if they thought they were noise, they would honestly be trying to find something to filter them off.
	But they're not.
	So you're not, you're not suggesting that they were going, Oh my God, it's a city.
	We've got to cover it up.
	Uh, how, how do we do that?
	I don't really think so.
	I think maybe that's one reason why they came on the anomalous bulletin board because they saw what it was and went, Oh my gosh.
	Well, when they were asking, they were then asking you to perform Not in so many words.
	It didn't ask me.
	It asked me what type of software I use to de-streak my mock images.
	Because mock images, when they come raw, are dirty.
	Right.
	You have to clean them up.
	And I have software that does this provided by my good friend Robert Shepard.
	You know what a mock image is, don't you, Art?
	M-O-C-K.
	It's Malin's camera, the Mars Orbital Camera on Mars Global Surveyor, MOC.
	That's the imaging, in white-white, black-and-white imaging that Keith has been working on for the Mars Web Program at NASA Ames for about a year.
	So Noel Goralik, the chief programmer of the computers working on the Odyssey imaging, in chat at Enterprise, is kind of sneakily saying, Hey, buddy, how do you get rid of the noise on those other images?
	Can we maybe use that process on these?
	All right, hold on, both of you.
	We'll be right back.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	and stay there.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	Indeed so.
	I am Art Bell and I must say this.
	I hope that you all have computers out there.
	Because if you do, you've got to make your way.
	You know, I'm not that great with the raw strip photography.
	However, I can see how the strip photography, like in image one, relates to what we see in image two.
	I think.
	Uh, when you get to image two, and to get to that, you go to my website at artbell.com, click on program tonight's guest info, and you'll see images one through seven.
	Now, image number two, I, uh... I'm looking at a city.
	This is not ambiguous.
	There's no way in hell if this is a real image.
	There's no way in hell this is any natural formation, and I'm certain that anybody out there would agree with me.
	There's just, there's no way.
	There's no way this is a nat- this is a city.
	In image number two, if the image is legitimate, if what we're seeing is real, Then this is artificial.
	And this is proof of artificial structures on Mars.
	Perhaps better photographic proof than we have of what is said to lay beneath the city off the coast of Cuba.
	Quite some bit better, as a matter of fact.
	This is startling.
	It jumps out at you.
	You don't have to dig in to look for it.
	It does, as Richard and Keith have suggested, if you look at the geography from that which is above ground, it is co-existent with and contiguous with the rest of the image, geographically.
	You can see, if somebody were to try and fake something like this, I just don't know how they could do it.
	If they slipped an image to Keith and Richard, That was fake.
	They did a damn good job of it because it looks truly authentic.
	And if it is authentic, then we are looking at a city on Mars.
	I'm willing to say that much.
	In image number two, I don't think anybody out there could sit and say that this would be any sort of noise.
	Well, they might say that.
	We'll ask about that.
	Could this be some sort of pixelated noise that we're looking at?
	There's a good question.
	We'll ask in a moment.
	Let's do exactly that right now.
	Let's ask both Richard C. Hoagland and Keith Laney, who's been doing photographic analysis for NASA.
	for about a year now.
	Why?
	The one thing I guess I would ask myself is what is at contention here and that is how are we not to know that this is some not some sort of pixelated noise that we're looking at even as artificial as it would appear to be after all a camera is an artificial mechanism and it will at times produce artificial Well, for one thing, the structures you're seeing are light years practically above the level of pixels.
	I mean, we're talking ten to a hundred times the size of each individual pixel.
	Thank you.
	For these buildings.
	Alright, gotcha.
	More important... Good answer.
	The technique that we applied to this came from my astronomical background and Keith's innovative creative imagination.
	Because we're wrestling with this problem, you know, is this noise?
	Is this some kind of electronic interference?
	When he talked with BAMF in the email chats, Mr. Gorelick admitted that they have these blocks on their raw data.
	Have you confronted Mr. Gorelick with regards?
	We are.
	He is, by the way, right now presently in the Enterprise chatroom.
	And he is calling Keith a liar.
	He's calling him a fraud.
	He's calling him a hoaxer.
	He's calling him every name in the book, Art.
	And the question is, why is an official NASA employee No, no, no, no.
	My question was, has he directly admitted to you who he is?
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, no question.
	He is who he claims he is.
	Okay.
	As the evening goes on, this gets more and more intriguing because his pen name, his surname, his screen name turns out to be a clever little code.
	Alright?
	And I'll get to that in a minute.
	I want to go back to the images though, because the data is crucial.
	The personalities aside, this data either is real or it's not.
	Would you agree?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so... That's an easy call.
	It's either real or it's not.
	Alright, so we have to somehow decide, based on the source of where Keith Laney got this, which was from the official Themis website.
	Right, sure it was.
	And it was on the evening of July 25th at 1027 p.m.
	Eastern Daylight Time.
	And he's got this in his computer.
	Because you know, when you log on and download things, your computer makes a record of when you do that.
	That is correct, yes.
	So we have data that will stand up in court as to where this image was procured and when it was procured.
	So then the question is, if this is a hoax, if this is some incredible, exquisite hoax, it's not us.
	It's folks at ASU.
	It's people either under BAMF or BAMF himself who has perpetrated this exquisite hoax.
	And what is BAMF saying that Keith is lying about?
	That this thing shows cities, structures, etc., etc., that he got it from the Themis website.
	In other words, he's claiming that Keith is lying about everything he's told you in the last episode.
	In other words, that this is an altered photograph?
	Yeah.
	Shouldn't we have him on the air?
	I was absolutely going to say.
	Now what we need for him to do... I would be happy to do... What we need him to do is to put up in the chat room a phone number where you can call him.
	Alright.
	And we have people who are watching who will call me or email me.
	Alright, Richard, if you get the phone number... He claims he doesn't want to debate.
	Well, he can't stand in front of me and say that.
	Well, that's why I want to get him on the air, and I think Art's got a good idea here.
	Let's give him a chance.
	Let's give him a chance to talk to Pam or whoever you are.
	And what is the name, you say, is this person?
	P-A-M-F.
	No, no, no, no, that's the acronym.
	Oh, his real name is Noel Gorelick.
	Noel, if you're really out there, and that really is you, then Go ahead, give us a phone number and at least make your case and tell us what's wrong with what we're looking at.
	Because, to me, if it's legitimate... I mean, what is he saying?
	Is he saying that Keith made this up?
	Is he saying this is a fraudulent picture?
	So he's claiming that Keith made all of this up?
	Absolutely.
	Now, see, this doesn't square, you know, with the other things that have been going on for the last two months.
	All right, if you will pass the phone number on during the break, I will obtain it from you.
	Call it and get him on the air.
	I think that's one way to get to the bottom of this.
	We have tried, by the way.
	We sent emails to Dr. Christensen several times this week asking questions about this data, and we will get to some of those details in a moment.
	But Dr. Christensen, when we provided him with side-by-side copies of Keith's processing of the, quote, real image that was slipped to him... Yes.
	And the raw, the data which is sitting on the Themis website tonight?
	Yes.
	He has not answered us in 48 hours.
	There has been a deafening silence.
	So in other words, the data that would supposedly correlate and be the exact same data as we have right here is on the website tonight is not the same.
	It's not the same.
	It's not the same.
	And that's where you go to picture number three.
	So then, okay.
	Go to picture number three.
	Okay.
	Alright, I got it.
	And I, too, have it, yes?
	Okay, now, the image on the right is one of Keith's incredibly de-correlated versions of the image he was slipped, or he was guided to, or... Actually, there's a term in the industry for how he got the image.
	It's called BAM-thing.
	When you take someone electronically and key them into a website where they don't know what they're gonna get, it's called BAM-thing.
	B-A-M-F-I-N-G.
	Right.
	Mr. Gorelick goes on the screen named B-A-M-F.
	Yeah.
	This is a little peculiar, wouldn't you say, Art?
	Yes, I would.
	I would say, how can you be really certain you're not dealing with somebody who, in fact, did set you up?
	That's what we're here to find out, aren't we?
	Only as good as your data integrity, and what we have done is we have emailed Dr. Christensen, who pays Mr. Gorelick's salary.
	He has admitted that Noel Gorelick is the person he claims to be, that he's been in the Enterprise chatroom, and has only raised certain questions about our handling of the data.
	So, to me, there's no doubt that Banff is Gorelick, is the guy who's processing these images, is the guy who guided, who Banffed Keith to getting this image.
	And for some reason, he won't admit it.
	Now, why wouldn't he admit it?
	This gets really intriguing, folks.
	And there is no end to the mysteries here, or the implications of the mysteries.
	Back to image number three.
	If you look at the image art, on the right is the pristine version that Keith got and worked with.
	Yes.
	The image on the left, At least we think it's the image you're going to find, is the image on the NASA Themis website tonight.
	If you look at them side by side, you'll see that the image on the right is crystal clear, has stunning multi-spectral colors, has all kinds of subtle shadings, and of course the block-like features that we think are the city underneath the dust.
	Right.
	The image on the left is noisy, streaky, faded, full of stuff you can't even analyze.
	And if you go to image number four... Yeah, but Richard, what you must be suggesting here, before you go on, is that Keith was sent the real McCoy.
	Keith was actually solicited, if I heard him correctly, to look for ways to make it more like the image on the left.
	Um, you're telling me he downloaded this at, uh, perhaps on, uh, not on the same website, but redirected to some other website by, you believe, BAMF.
	That's a possibility.
	Where he was supplied with his real image.
	The real image.
	Uh, and, uh, obviously the image on the left, uh, is tremendously noisier and there's not nearly so much detail in it.
	Now go to image number four.
	This is kind of my creme de la creme.
	Alright.
	Image number four.
	I am there.
	Okay.
	This is the familiar D&M five-sided pyramid.
	Right.
	The image on the right is case processing of his secret slipped-out-the-back-door real image.
	Yes.
	Look at the stunning detail.
	Yes.
	Look at the colors.
	Look at the internal structure.
	Look at the absolutely non-geological character of this five-sided massive pyramid that I've said for the last 20 years seems to be a huge building on the planet Mars.
	Right.
	Look at the same image on the left.
	Right.
	If you look very carefully, you'll see hints of what's on the right.
	Correct.
	Yes, I can.
	But it's obvious that what's happened to the image on the left is that somebody has dropped 15, you know, carloads of noise on top of it, and done a few other things.
	Yeah, they tried to take the blocks off.
	That's exactly what they did.
	I don't know how they did it.
	I think they laid a visual overlay image of the area over top of the IR data in the raw state.
	But the image looks clearer.
	Noise is not hard to add.
	Noise is hard to take away.
	It's not hard to add.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	So if you wanted to... So what we're really charging is that we're getting fraudulent Data from NASA.
	From NASA.
	Let me stop you.
	One of the key things that Keith asked Noel when they were in these conversations is about the other published IR imagery.
	We have two other sites, am I right, Keith?
	Mm-hmm.
	Where we have full-color, multispectral, false-color presentation of the theme of data.
	Why didn't they give us the full-color multispectral done like the other IR multiband images that they've released?
	There are two other images they've released, Art, of other regions of Mars.
	Right.
	They don't look anything like this.
	There are no blockies.
	There's no noise.
	They're just kind of average multispectral images of another planet.
	And Banff, a.k.a.
	Noel Gorlick, admitted in his conversations with Laney that there was these peculiar blocks that they couldn't figure out how to get rid of on this image.
	Laney, uh...
	These conversations took place, uh, where, Keith?
	On the private chat rooms.
	Private chat rooms?
	You have no... I mean, it's the internet.
	You could be a dog on the internet.
	You could be anybody on the internet.
	I mean, everybody past about fifth grade right now knows that.
	You know, you can spoof anything up there.
	So how can you really know who you were talking to?
	Well, I mean, he's on there.
	It's obvious he knows what he's talking about.
	He's revealing inner details of what they're doing there and how they did this.
	But a good hoaxer would... Yeah, but you're forgetting Dr. Christensen, who emailed us back on several technical points of this data over the last month, has confirmed Noel Gorelick is his man.
	He has been at Enterprise.
	He has been talking to us about this data.
	I have no doubt it was him.
	I mean, whether confirmed or not, I have no doubt it was him and his buddy Dan Smythe, whoever that is.
	Now, there is some question about who the Smythe character is.
	He also showed up very knowledgeable in infrared multispectral processing, but he claims not to be the Dan Smythe who was a leader in the field at MIT.
	It gets deeper and deeper, doesn't it, my friend?
	Well, I just know this, Richard.
	I know that there are a lot of people out there who would like to set your... Oh, of course!
	Yeah.
	But won't you think that, you know, I mean, if this is a hoax, it is the most extraordinary, elaborate, technically sophisticated.
	Tell them about the headers, Keith, on the images.
	Well, the headers on the images are different.
	I myself have three different versions of this image.
	I've got the official one from the Themis website that's up now.
	I have the official one from the Themis website that I downloaded on the 25th.
	Hey, Richard, tell them about what the 25th is.
	When this whole thing came down, when we finally realized after the show I did with George that we were going to pressure them to release an IR image of Cydonia finally, Dr. Saunders, who was the official project scientist, admitted in an email spread around the world on the internet that the image was going to be released within a few days.
	This was on a Sunday.
	Right.
	My guys and I got together and I looked at the calendar and I said, oh my God, I'll bet they're going to release it on the 25th of July.
	Why the 25th art?
	I don't know.
	That turned out to be the anniversary of 35A72, the first Cydonia image of the face on Mars taken by Viking 31 years ago.
	So I sent some emails to some people who were on the Enterprise Conference and I said, I'm betting on the 25th.
	I said to Mike Bearer, I'm betting on the 25th.
	So on the 24th, when they put the image out, needless to say, I was a tad disappointed.
	Because the ritual had been broken.
	Except, Keith was maneuvered, manipulated, goaded, whatever you want to call it, into downloading his image on the night of the 25th from that website, and it was the stunning real image.
	And it looks as if the ritual was confirmed.
	Yes.
	Now, let me get to the real part of the story.
	Yes.
	As Keith is preparing these images for the processing, what you gotta do is you have to tilt them vertical, slice them out of their background on the Themis website.
	and put them basically by themselves.
	You can layer them one over the other over the other and do the mathematics in the MD program.
	He had to align them so that they measure so many pixels wide and so many pixels long.
	Keith, tell Art and the nation how many pixels wide and long these images prepared over four days
	by Mr. Gorlick are.
	Okay, when you average the distance of the little jagged edges on the picture
	and rotate it vertical, it comes out to be 333 by 1947 pixels.
	How about that?
	And you have to rotate the image by the magic number of 727, a little over that.
	Okay, you got to rotate the image seven degrees to get it, yes, a little over seven, to get it perfect.
	So there's somebody who follows Richard closely and has a sense of humor?
	Again, you can read this two ways, except you can't ignore the molar.
	Either that, Richard, either that, or...
	Uh, somebody, uh, who was going to set you up really knew what the hell would push your buttons.
	And of course, uh, that date, uh, those angles all push Richard C. Hogan's butt real hard.
	Art, there's one small problem.
	Yeah.
	He didn't send the image to me.
	He didn't manipulate me.
	He sent it to Keith Laney.
	I understand.
	The one anomalist who's working with NASA.
	Yeah.
	NASA Ames.
	Here's the other problem I have, Richard, and that is when you lay these images side by side, the ones Keith has supplied, the high detail, and the ones that are on the site, you can in fact see Yes!
	hints that they're exactly the same thing in different detail.
	Yes.
	That much I can go along with.
	Yes.
	Well the bad thing about that is, and this has fooled a lot of people, is that they look
	at the image as presently displayed and they look at my original raw image and they go,
	well Keith, your image looks like crap.
	And I'm like, well, that's what I thought!
	You know?
	I mean, that's what I thought.
	Until I really processed the image, I thought it was a hunk load of crap, and it did not look like the present image.
	This is a black and white, remember?
	You cannot look at multispectrals in black and white.
	That's why there's a $7,000 commercial program to look at these images the right way.
	All right, if this BAMF, whoever he is, wants to supply a phone number, now would be the time to do it.
	And if you don't, then we'll presume you don't want to defend yourself, nor do you wish the truth to get out beyond the limits of somebody's chat room somewhere.
	I'm crying on the corner, waiting in the rain I swear I'll never ever wait again
	You gave me a world worth more than all you are alive Darling, in my wildest dreams I never thought I'd go
	But what flipped it for me was the set of the Russian pictures that you got hold of
	that confirmed this, to me, what could be nothing other than a city
	And by the way, Richard, since you did that, there are a number of other websites, which I won't name here, which all of a sudden have sprung up.
	And they have found other city-like artifacts on Mars at different locations.
	You know, using the same strip of photography that comes from NASA.
	And they found all kinds of city-like structures.
	And these websites are popping up like crazy now.
	So, you got them going.
	Well, the data has them going.
	Look, if you go to your site.
	Alright, we have some images.
	I'm there.
	Racked up.
	Oh, yes.
	And if you click on image number one.
	So everybody knows, you go to artbell.com, then you click on program, tonight's guest info, Richard C. Hoagland's name, and here we are, related images number one through fourteen.
	Yep.
	Okay?
	Go to number one.
	Number one, underground buildings.
	Yep.
	Okay.
	Oh, here we are.
	Yeah, this is the one.
	This is the one.
	Oh, this is kind of interesting now.
	Downtown Cairo, Egypt on the left.
	And... Not chosen at random.
	Downtown Mars on the right.
	Good old Fedonia.
	Yeah.
	And at the bottom... Darn, these look like buildings.
	Don't they?
	Yeah.
	Oh, they really do.
	They really, really do.
	And at the bottom, as you'll see the inset with the close-up.
	And then the comparison to the Reims Cathedral.
	Yeah.
	And it's the same perspective.
	You're looking straight down.
	In the Ream shot, you're looking down from a few thousand feet.
	It's an aerial photograph taken in Germany or in France sometime during the, I think, last World War.
	Okay.
	And the one at Cydonia was a composite of an image taken or released, you should say, by NASA on the 24th, 25th of July.
	And then composite it with a visual image that we now know was taken March 8th.
	And when you put the visual image over the infrared image, what you in essence do is amplify the signal and suppress or average the noise and you get that result.
	And you couldn't get that result unless there was something down there.
	This is what is just so Mind-boggling.
	Even to me, I haven't had this in a long time.
	That's a city.
	That is a city under the surface.
	Now...
	The last time we discussed... All right, so that we're clear on this, the image on the right, Richard, the upper right-hand image, the one that's so incredibly clear, was taken when, by whom?
	Well, we don't know when it was taken.
	It was released on July 24th, the official one.
	The one that Keith Laney got, he got on the evening of the 25th.
	And there's been this intense controversy over, you know, did he hoax it?
	Am I making this up?
	Are we in some kind of elaborate hoax?
	I mean, Balderdash.
	Well, I was willing to go along with the possibility that you were hoaxed.
	I mean, you and I talked privately and I said, Richard, are you sure?
	Uh, but then when you came up with the Russian photograph, that was too much for even me.
	Okay, so now what you want to do is you want to go to image number three.
	Okay.
	Why am I skipping number two?
	Because we'll go back to two in a second.
	All right.
	All right, uh, Russian.
	Here we go.
	Russian phobos.
	Yeah, okay.
	Now this is a comparison with the upper Sedonia region.
	On the far left in the middle is the fort.
	And the upper, toward the upper right corner is the face.
	Uh-huh.
	Uh, the DNM is off the bottom of the image.
	Sure.
	And this pattern, this grid pattern, which you saw in the previous image as a close-up, is this underground city.
	I mean, what else can you call it?
	That's what it is.
	Um, and the image on the right, the black and white, is from the 1989 Phobos II mission.
	Where the Russians flew a infrared, thermal infrared scanner.
	Mm-hmm.
	Somewhat cruder than the Themis camera on the Odyssey spacecraft because it's... The Themis image resolution is roughly 100 meters.
	The Russian imagery here is somewhat bigger.
	I think it's maybe 500 meters.
	Something along that order.
	But it's on the same order of magnitude.
	It isn't a factor of 10.
	And this is a totally different region.
	It doesn't matter.
	It's obviously the same stuff.
	It's the same kind of stuff.
	Can I ask you a question, Richard?
	Of course.
	That's what the show's all about.
	If this was a city on Mars, and, you know, I think clearly, even I can concede that's what it was, when was it a city?
	What a heck of a good question.
	That's why we have to go back.
	Our alignment data, the geometry that I've been talking about for years, if you stand in the center of the pyramid complex, which is off the frame to the left there, and you look across the face to that linear feature on the other side called the cliff, there's a solstice alignment.
	We're going to talk a bit about the solstices later on tonight.
	And that alignment says that that thing, whatever was done there, Was done in the order of half a million to 300,000 years ago.
	Was not yesterday.
	And, you know, when I initially proposed that... From 300,000 to a half million?
	No, not order of magnitude.
	I'm betting closer to 300,000.
	I see.
	Alright.
	Now, the reason that celestial mechanics marker is important is because it's about the only thing that you can absolutely count on about any of this.
	You know, astronomy is pretty simple.
	Orbital mechanics is really well known.
	Newton's laws of, you know, gravity and Kepler's laws of motion.
	So, we're able to track back the history of the planets and how they tilt, wobble, and all that.
	Or, actually, JPL and NASA has done this.
	And using their calculations as when, you know, do it with a little geometry, as I published in the Monuments of Mars, my book, covering all of this investigation for the last 20-some years.
	We came out with an order of magnitude estimate of a half a million years.
	Now, here on Earth, a half a million years ago, there wasn't much going on.
	The most advanced guys that we conceive of in the geological record, the fossils that they dig up every now and then, was a primitive, you know, slope-browed guy, gal, called a Homo erectus.
	But what is really fascinating, is on the order of 200,000 to 250,000 years ago, there was this remarkable leap forward on Earth.
	And even the mainstream anthropologists have discovered this from looking at the taxonomy of the fossils.
	And this was how long ago this leap took place?
	250,000 years ago.
	But what's really fascinating is that there's a whole other group of scientists, the biologists, actually the chemists slash biologists who've been looking at DNA samples from terrestrial races, various groupings around the Earth.
	Right.
	And they came out, a guy named Wilson at the University of California in Berkeley came out in the 1980s with an estimate that all of humankind, all of our lineage, went back to a tiny group of individuals probably somewhere in Africa on the order of 250,000 years ago.
	So you kind of put these dates all together and what it says to me is that something extraordinary
	happened in our own history and that something may be connected to the simultaneity of the
	something extraordinary that we're seeing in these pictures from Mars.
	Let's say we're looking at cities.
	Let's say those cities were there 300,000 years ago.
	Yeah.
	And something terrible happened.
	Something terrible obviously happened or they wouldn't be buried, right?
	Or they wouldn't be buried.
	So something terrible did happen.
	In fact, last night, Richard, I had a theoretical physicist slash astronomer on.
	Dr. Krauss.
	It's entirely possible, you know, that civilizations don't last very long anyway, any of them, that eventually they all get hit by something, and what you see here on these photographs, if it's real, if these really are cities, Then, that's what happens.
	Whatever it is, is buried.
	That's why we gotta go back, because in the first... You have a 1111... My question was this, Richard.
	I never quite got to it.
	Okay.
	If this catastrophic event occurred at minimum, say, 300,000 years ago, how were they able to get anybody off the planet and to Earth, which is what you've been talking around for a while now, 50,000 years later?
	Well, because these are all estimates.
	The error bars are so large that when I say 250, they're saying 300.
	Okay.
	So we have a real overlap.
	In other words, these are not like looking at a terrestrial calendar.
	The distances and the time estimates are so vast that 50,000 years out of 300 is almost like getting it right on the mark.
	The most startling photograph up here, folks, is number one, and it's got a picture of Cairo, downtown Cairo, from the air, and it's got a picture of Mars from the air.
	Actually, from the vacuum above Mars.
	Yeah, it's about 200 miles up in the air.
	About 200 miles up, which is out of the air on Mars, right?
	Very much.
	Yeah, okay.
	Nevertheless, a good photograph, and the similarity between the two is so startling and so remarkable that if you aren't along for this ride, then you're not watching.
	That's all I can say.
	No, I mean, we've had incredible reactions to the show that we did when we debuted all this stuff back in, uh, what was it, September?
	Right.
	Um, and a lot of it has been negative.
	I mean, everything in the kitchen sink has been thrown at us from accusing us of hoaxing the images to accusing Keith Laney of hoaxing the images or being a damn fool and doing it by mistake.
	And, you know, creating something wondrous and extraordinary, to accusing NASA or some other agency of hoaxing the image and trying to basically put it out to discredit us, etc.
	etc.
	etc.
	But the bottom line is, none of the naysayers have been able to come up with a foolproof method of duplicating what we've got.
	And when you can take two totally disparate data sets, meaning the infrared data, And the visual data, taken at different times, and superimposed them, and come up with buildings.
	I mean, look at that close-up of that thing at the bottom.
	That's a damn building!
	Yeah.
	With perspective and, I mean, when I first created this, you know, in the image program that we were working with back in, I think it was August, I could not believe myself what I was seeing.
	It was just too extraordinary after all these years to have this kind of independent evidence.
	And then, of course, the question is, well, if it isn't hoax, if we were to slip something to basically be a ringer, to do us in credibility-wise, where did it come from?
	And what we're going to track through tonight is we think we have now figured out where this image came from and what it really represents.
	All right.
	As a portent to getting a lot more.
	Anyway, that's kind of prologue.
	So, let's now go back to image number two, if you want.
	All right.
	This is nighttime IR NASA just released.
	When you say just released, when?
	It was released, let me see, when was it released?
	It was released on the 31st of October.
	So it was literally only about a week old.
	It was released on Halloween, which is kind of cute because it's, you know, NASA's way of saying, take a treat!
	You know, I don't see much here, Richard.
	Is it a trick or is it a treat?
	The image on the left, let me explain for folks that may not be following this that closely.
	These are two tilted images.
	The reason they're tilted is because the spacecraft orbit around the planet is tilted slightly to the pole.
	So as this camera scans, it produces a A slanted image.
	Gotcha.
	And the image on the left is supposed to be the image taken and released on July 24th.
	Not taken on the 24th, but released to us on the 24th.
	The image on the right is supposed to be an image taken October 24th, for the first time ever, the Odyssey team decided to put a date when an image was taken on their image of the day on their website.
	We were told that they would not do that.
	We were told we would have to wait for the Planetary Data System archive to be released.
	And there was a big release of about 1,800 images from ASU, Arizona State University, on October 1.
	But for some reason, when they took this nighttime infrared image, they decided to put a date when it was taken and a date when it was released.
	So it was taken, they claim, on the 24th of October.
	And it was released on the 31st, seven days later.
	Okay.
	First image they've ever, ever labeled that way.
	And the right-hand image, the right-hand slanted image is supposed to be an image taken at night.
	Remember, we all wanted nighttime IR.
	Yes.
	This is supposed to be it.
	And when I looked at it... Of Cydonia, of the... Of Cydonia.
	If you look at the left, in the upper middle of the left image... Yes.
	See the face there?
	Yes.
	Track right across on a line right across to the same position in the image on the right.
	And you don't see anything, do you?
	No.
	It's kind of weird.
	It's gone.
	It's missing.
	So that got me very, very curious.
	So what I've started, and we are going to publish this on the Enterprise site probably tomorrow evening, and we hope to have it ready by tonight, In other words, there's too much science to do with too many calculations and diagrams and all that.
	We're going to publish in written form the story we're going to go through this evening as to why this image is both real and not real at the same time.
	How do you manage that?
	That's a cute trick, right?
	Well, for one thing... Is it manipulated?
	It has been manipulated.
	In what manner?
	Well, first of all, they've lied to us as to when it was taken.
	I will go through and I will show you conclusively, absolutely conclusively, and if you don't buy it, buy it at the end of the night, um, I'll owe you ten bucks, okay?
	I will prove this image was not taken on October 24th, 2002.
	That in fact, it's a much, much earlier image.
	And given that, And given the representation that it is an October 24th image, it means that we have caught the agency in an outright lie.
	Why lie?
	Why lie about when it was taken?
	That's the critical, critical question.
	So answer it.
	Why lie?
	Well, until we go through some of the data, I can't answer that because you're not going to...
	Understand it or believe it, until we get to the MacGuffin, as Hitchcock used to say, to see what's on the image, because there's some really cool stuff on this image, even though it has been... Yeah, actually, there were a couple of things that I was going to ask you about.
	On the right-hand image, there's almost what looks like a hole, but with the fact that it's an infrared night shot, And I know that the heat signature shows up as brighter.
	It almost looks like a volcano.
	Yep, it's not.
	It's not a volcano?
	But you're perceptive.
	You're looking at the right kind of stuff.
	All right.
	Hold on, Richard.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	My guest is Richard C. Hoagland.
	Light in your head and dead on your feet.
	Where's another crazy day?
	You're slipping out of way and forget about everything.
	This city doesn't make you feel so cold.
	It's got so many people but it's got no soul.
	And you think you're wrong.
	You decide that you're wrong when you start to know everything.
	You used to say that it was so easy.
	You used to say that it was so easy.
	But you're trying.
	You're trying now.
	Another year and then you'll be happy.
	One more year and then you'll be happy.
	You're trying. You're trying now.
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from Western the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach Art on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-825-727-1222.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	You know, no matter what you believe about all of this, if you'll just take a moment, go to your computer, go to artbell.com.
	The program tonight's guest info, and look at picture number one, beneath Richard Hoagland's name.
	Picture number one is actually several photographs.
	The two most important in my mind, the top two.
	On the left, a very nice clear photograph of downtown Cairo, Egypt from the air.
	And then on the right, The photograph taken by the spacecraft, the IR photograph of what apparently sits beneath the sand on Mars.
	Now, how could anybody, anybody deny that what we're looking at is a city?
	So that means 250,000 or 300,000 or 500,000 years ago, There was a city on Mars.
	It was above ground.
	It was bustling.
	It was full of people.
	And that may have been all over the planet.
	Not just at Cydonia, but it may have been all over the planet.
	Very likely was.
	And then... And then something terrible happened.
	Alright, hopefully there's a fairly reasonably quick way to get through this.
	The Russians, Richard says, lied.
	Not the Russians, I'm sorry, NASA.
	About when this photograph was released.
	For what reason?
	We don't know yet.
	I mean, isn't it astonishing that you'd make a slip like that because that's what you think?
	And, you know, I mean, what's wrong when our own agency is the agency we find?
	And again, I want to specify, we're not talking the entire agency.
	We're talking about a group of individuals within it.
	That are able to control the policy, the dialogue, and that everybody else kind of... Yeah, that's amazing.
	...either doesn't know what's going on, or they just do know what's going on.
	Yeah, true.
	Alright, Richard, number one.
	Come on, out with it.
	How do you know they lie?
	Okay.
	Go to image number four.
	Now, you've got to remember, Richard, we've got a lot of people in trucks out there.
	We've got a lot of people who are not with computers right now.
	And I'm happy to go to image number four, but... Well, I'll describe it.
	Everybody's not going to be able to do that.
	This is Radio of the Internet.
	Alright, I'm there.
	Okay.
	On image number four, what I've done is I've put the two side-by-side images.
	Yes.
	Together.
	Correct, I see them.
	The one on the left is the one that we were given on July 24th of this year.
	Uh-huh.
	The one that was the official daytime Sedonia infrared.
	What I've done is clipped off just the top so that it matches the image on the right.
	I can see it does, yeah.
	Which is the image that's on the left-hand side of the one I showed you a couple of minutes ago That was released on October 31.
	Okay.
	Now the official caption of the October 31 image says that that daytime infrared is the one we were given on the 24th of July.
	Categorically, unequivocally says that image.
	Look at the top.
	Okay.
	The one on the left, see those maces?
	Yes.
	How they stop at a certain place?
	Yes.
	Look at the one on the right.
	Uh-huh.
	There's more land photographed in that image.
	Isn't it possible that the IR on the right was capturing more heat, which seems to extend them?
	No.
	No, no, no.
	No, no.
	The frame is the frame is the frame.
	And every version, every official version from July to the 31st showed the one on the left.
	Let me try another approach here.
	Even if they lied about when they released it... No, no, it's not when they released it, it's... Well, about when they took it, or whatever... No, no, no, no, this is about what version it is.
	Because the big hullabaloo over the version that Keith and I got versus the official version?
	Yes, uh-huh.
	NASA said there's only one version.
	Repeat it.
	One.
	Right.
	Say after me.
	One image.
	Now we've got categorical proof on their own website that there are two different versions of this supposedly one image.
	Well, to go back, circle back to my question, isn't it possible that it is one image processed differently?
	Well, processing an image differently and adding more territory to it are two different things.
	We're talking about several square miles there.
	Yeah.
	You know, when you think of it, the image is about 20 miles wide.
	Alright?
	Yes.
	So that's a couple of square miles of additional terrain that magically appeared.
	Yeah.
	Now, this is not trivial because, you know, it's the, you know, say what you mean and mean what you say.
	We have been excoriated For proposing that there was a second image leaked to Keith.
	I see.
	The night of the 25th.
	NASA has said emphatically, there is only one image.
	Repeat after me.
	BAMF, you know, Gorelick, the guy that's been hanging out at Enterprise all these months.
	Yes.
	He said categorically we're crazy.
	Yeah.
	Christensen says we had to have made it up.
	Even our good friends think that we were slipped a ringer.
	I said that to you.
	I said that to you.
	Very early in all of this.
	Yes, you did.
	Yes.
	You and Alan were both cautioning.
	Be careful before you leap.
	Off this Martian cliff.
	So what we have here is unequivocal proof.
	If you go back and look at the double image, the first one or the second one that we had up.
	Yes.
	At the top, you'll see there is more stuff there, and there's no way that's just image processing.
	It's another image.
	So that being the case, then the question you have to ask yourself is, well, where does it come from?
	Now, go to image number five.
	Okay, where does it come from?
	Where does it come from?
	Where and when?
	What drawer did they have this thing in?
	Down there.
	But they decided, for whatever reason, to reveal to us... Remember, this is not... This is not right out in the open.
	This is kind of like leaking in public, where you put things out.
	Yes.
	You capture them, and they're looking to see who's smart enough to figure it out.
	Okay.
	Which, of course, is the hallmark of a dissident group inside at war with the cover-up.
	That are doing the same thing they did back during Pathfinder.
	Remember how during Pathfinder we had some pretty peculiar images that kind of showed up on the website?
	Why cover this up, Richard?
	Well, we'll get to that, alright?
	Without building the foundation, as the lawyers love to say, you know, I can't give you a simple answer, because there is no simple answer.
	I mean, the simplest answer is they're trying to delay the inevitable, which is the admission by this agency and this government that the human race Is not, and has not been, alone.
	But there is stuff in the other parts of the solar system.
	And for God's sake, maybe we're part of the stuff.
	Maybe it's part of our own history.
	Which would be an incredible incendiary, uh, you know, bomb in the heart of the Bobby politics.
	You don't think we could take it?
	Well, it's not whether I think.
	It's whether they're following Brookings.
	Whether Brookings is still ruling the roost.
	Remember this official report that we found many years ago which was published In 1961, commissioned in 59, which basically said, you know, to paraphrase, oh, who's that actor?
	Richard, who commissioned Brookings, do you know?
	NASA.
	NASA commissioned Brookings.
	They had a different structure back then.
	Basically, it was a big study to find out what the institutions, the religious institutions, what America would think if contact was suddenly revealed.
	That was one section.
	We were looking at the out years and the impact of the space program on all facets of our society.
	And one of them would be... One of them was extraterrestrial contact with either real beings, with real ruins, or with radio signals.
	And Brookings concluded... Can you summarize what they concluded?
	Yeah, don't go there.
	I mean, I worked with Margaret Mead at the American Museum of Natural History at the Hayden Planetarium in New York.
	We had some wonderful spirited conversations before she passed from this mortal coil, and her biggest fear was that if we were confronted with implacable evidence of an advanced extraterrestrial society, even in the form of ruins nearby with libraries that we could read someday, that as a scientist, it would so impugn the concept of progress In the Western tradition, that tomorrow we'll learn more than we know today and the day after tomorrow we'll know more.
	Because suddenly it would lay out, you know, a million years of science and history and experience that we have not had yet.
	And that a lot of folks would just say, oh shucks, and give up.
	I'm curious Richard if you had the opportunity to be excavating one of these cities that we see on Mars and you got in and you found a library and the writing on the walls and the pillars and inside in the books or whatever it is they had that passed for books all looked vaguely Egyptian to you.
	Would you be surprised?
	No, not at all.
	Not at all, huh?
	In fact, there's a hell of a good series called Stargate.
	Yes.
	Which I've been following religiously ever since I realized that they were trying to tell us some very interesting
	stuff.
	Just kind of watch that series.
	And Syfy is reprising the entire three or four years of it now on Syfy on Monday evenings.
	Four hours of Stargate back-to-back.
	Yes.
	Pretty interesting stuff, because whoever those scriptwriters are, they obviously talked to Chris Carter, who did X-Files.
	SyFy Channel's beginning to do a lot of interesting things.
	They're finally getting their chops.
	They're actually going to go and do an archaeological dig at the... At Roswell.
	At Roswell, yeah.
	Isn't that astonishing?
	Yes, I thought so.
	As part of the Zulberg series?
	I thought so, yes.
	What's going on around it?
	They sponsored a press conference at the National Press Club the other day, and one of their key people was none other than John Podesta, who was the former chief of staff in the Clinton White House.
	That's right.
	And John stood up at the podium and basically said, you know, George, release those documents.
	And of course, my question was, well, when you were running Clinton's White House, why didn't you turn to Bill and say, Bill, release those documents?
	But nobody asked that question.
	Anyway, no, things are coming.
	Very interesting, big things are coming.
	And again, as the evening wears on, we will get into some of those.
	Because just before I went on the air, I had a call from our deep space contact.
	Yes.
	The guy in Washington, New York.
	Right.
	You know, I mean, it's pretty interesting, the timing.
	And it was not coincidental.
	He knew I was coming on, he wanted me to basically communicate a few things and not, you know, step on the wrong toes.
	Now this is a contact inside the administration.
	Inside the current administration.
	Alright.
	Who has been very honest with us and very credible in terms of predicting things that were going to happen before they happened.
	So what does he say?
	Well, he says, let me see, how do I put this?
	The events of a couple days ago, The National Election, where basically they cleaned the table, have freed up a lot of energy now to move forward on the disclosure front.
	And he said that in the next few months we should see some pretty remarkable things, and if we do not, Then there should be health pay on the part of people demanding that they finally get off the nonsense of hiding stuff, losing it in a drawer, letting it fall behind the couch, having the dog eat it, etc., etc.
	Well, I will tell you this, Richard.
	When you consider revelations of the past, a lot of times your thinking would be it'll be a Democrat administration.
	that will release this kind of shocking news, or that would be likely to release this kind of news, versus a conservative one.
	But the fact of the matter is, most times, with surprising revelations from our government, they've come from the exact opposite administration that you would expect them to come from.
	And generally they come when that administration is very, very strong.
	So your point is well taken.
	Well, that's what was affirmed by the phone call tonight.
	Now, I will remind you that it wasn't a Democratic administration that went to China.
	It was Nixon.
	Exactly.
	That's what I meant by the opposite.
	Because that's where you were going.
	So, I can see the logic of this, given that they now control both houses, given that, you know, there is a real determination to do things differently, and we've seen evidence that they're doing things differently.
	Um, and there is a clock ticking.
	Remember, we have been following the, what I call the ritual clock, that there has to be in the unfolding decade of this first, uh, of this new century, there has to be a time release of stuff if we're to arrive at a watershed, uh, circa 2012.
	Which is where the clock is counting down to.
	You believe that?
	I believe it, I absolutely know it.
	And what do you think, and when the clock gets to 2012, Richard, what happens?
	I don't know.
	I just know there's a clock.
	Now Chris Carter, in his last X-Files episode, claimed that's when open contact is established.
	Given that the contact will probably come from members of our own family, Meaning, blood relations out there among the stars and planets?
	If the ruins we're looking at on Mars are what I think they are?
	I could see that there has to be foreshadowing.
	There has to be foundation laid.
	There has to be general cultural awareness of the possibility.
	Otherwise, there would be one hell of a shock.
	Well, let's look at Brookings for a moment.
	I can understand that if ships were, you know, to begin to land in our biggest cities all around the world, There would be panic on a level that would be unacceptable.
	Just about everybody who thought about it would think it would be unacceptable.
	On the other hand, if news of an ancient civilization a half million years ago that existed on Mars were suddenly to come to light, shocking and interesting and fascinating and intriguing and thought-provoking as that might be, There's nothing particularly threatening about a bunch of skeletons on Mars.
	No, what's threatening, Art, is the libraries.
	It's only threatening when we go, open the door, and believe me, it's not going to be inscriptions on the wall.
	It's going to be something extraordinarily sophisticated, because remember, if we're looking at something real here, it's incredibly high-tech.
	It's not like Sumer.
	It's not like Egypt.
	Those are pale copies.
	Those are echoes down through time by humans, by terrestrials on this planet, who were mimicking, through myths and legends and their architecture, the wonders and the fabulous nature of what they'd heard about, or maybe even seen an archived picture buried somewhere here on Earth.
	Because you can imagine, if folks did come here en masse, You know, half a million years ago, or 300,000?
	Yes.
	They would have left a lot of stuff, and it would have been high-tech stuff that would have been pretty resistant to time and change and entropy.
	One would think so, and we should have found it.
	Well, unless some guys have found it, and it's all being locked up.
	Remember the last scene in the Indiana Jones movie?
	The, um... Oh, what was the first movie?
	Not the Temple of Doom.
	The Raiders of the Lost Ark.
	Remember the huge warehouse?
	Remember all the stuff in there?
	I have this vision of a warehouse like that with all the good stuff kept from us because of Brookings-type thinking on the part of a small custodian of Of guys, self-appointed, who basically think they're the keepers of what we can and cannot know.
	There have been some pretty dark rumors, Richard, about people bringing things out of Egypt in the middle of the night for years.
	Oh, yes.
	I had a guy show up at one of my conferences who claimed that he was Robert Oppenheimer's nephew.
	And he told me flat out that in 1987, They brought something out in a C-130 that they found behind the walls off the passage leading to the Queen's Chamber.
	Really?
	In the Great Pyramid.
	Really?
	And that it was taken to Wright-Patt to be back-engineered.
	Absolutely flatly told me that.
	Back-engineered.
	Do you believe this person to be who they claim to be?
	I have no way of knowing.
	But I do know that we independently were looking into interesting weirdness that went on in 87 around the Great Pyramid.
	And the Japanese discovery with gravimeters of strange rooms, hidden rooms behind that passage.
	Yes.
	Down to the Queen's Chamber.
	Yes.
	And we do know that they actually drilled through those walls into those rooms.
	And I was told by friends of mine at the Smithsonian that some very interesting stuff was shipped to Washington.
	Of course, when we try to track it down in the public archives, the kind of records, bills of lading, and all that, not a trace.
	But, a very well-known archaeologist from Egypt stood up at an open meeting of archaeologists in Tennessee in that time frame, witnessed by a very well-known American archaeologist, whose name, oddly enough, is Gypsy Graves.
	An archaeologist with a last name Graves, yes, for real.
	She lives in Florida and she is a wonderful individual.
	She led the first woman team of archaeologists in the 80s that the Egyptian government, Zahi, permitted to actually dig on and around the plateau.
	Hold tight, Richard.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	We'll be right back.
	Can you imagine that?
	A big warehouse somewhere with all of those artifacts.
	Many of them with Egyptian-like writings on them, no doubt.
	Tightly guarded.
	No doubt.
	I think it could be.
	The world was on fire and no one could save me but you.
	Strange world design to make foolish people.
	I never dreamed that I'd lose somebody like you.
	I never dreamed that I'd lose somebody like you.
	Once again, Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard, welcome back.
	Let me finish, if I can, that little story about the Great Pyramid, because it does bear on the rest of what we want to talk about.
	Sure.
	My friend Gypsy Graves was in this meeting in Tennessee in the late 80s, 87, 88, somewhere around there.
	Right.
	And she reported that one of the archaeologists from the Council of Antiquities from Egypt was making a presentation.
	And he talked about them officially drilling into the sidewall of the of the passage that goes to the Queen's Chamber, which is the lower chamber of the Great Pyramid.
	This was a wall that the Japanese, a year or so before in 86, had found Readings from gravimeters.
	These are gadgets that basically measure slight gravity variations.
	Right.
	And they found what they thought were hollows behind the walls, because if you've got an empty room, you know, it's going to have less mass and therefore less gravity.
	Sure.
	And if it's full masonry all the way out to the edge of the pyramid.
	When they drilled in, according to this archaeologist from Egypt that my friend, you know, heard in this major meeting, she wasn't the only one there, but She's the only one I know.
	She said that he said they found sand.
	Well now sand is very interesting because sand makes one heck of a shock absorber.
	If you want to put something valuable in a room and keep it safe from earthquakes for thousands of years.
	Right.
	If you don't have that stupid popcorn that comes in every package these days and winds up spilling all over the floor, you would pack it in sand.
	Because sand, I mean, sand is used, for instance, in road barriers.
	Those big yellow buckets at exits and bridges?
	Right.
	Where if you swerve off the road, if you had too much to drink, you crash into the barrier, they break.
	They also use water.
	And the idea is the momentum is transferred to the water or the sand, it goes flying up into the air, your car is cushioned, and you wind up surviving what could be a fatal head-on crash.
	Right.
	So sand is a good protector In earthquakes.
	So when the sand started coming out, they apparently captured some of it, and they took it to the lab for analysis.
	And he reported, this is again an archaeologist from the Council of Antiquities, reporting at an official meeting in Tennessee in 1987, that the sand was, in his words, highly radioactive.
	Highly radioactive.
	Think about this.
	Archaeologists are not technical people.
	Archaeology has had to bring drag kicking and screaming into the 20th century to use high-tech tools.
	So his term highly is a relative term.
	It could have been, you know, higher background than normal.
	I don't think he meant high enough to kill you.
	Normally, if I were to say highly radioactive, I can assure you it wouldn't be just a tick or two above the background.
	No, this was something significant, but I just had the feeling, and she did too, that the way he said it, that it was anomalously high as opposed to dangerously high.
	But even so, it don't belong there, and it certainly shouldn't be radioactive.
	No.
	So, I mean, there's a whole story that goes along with this, which I'm going to put in the new book.
	But the bottom line is that I think that whoever built the pyramid concealed something in those rooms.
	So later, I had other people from Sedona, who used to do tours to Egypt every year, and they were able to get into the pyramid By seducing their keeper away for an afternoon.
	And they bribed the guards and they got in.
	And one of them actually took pictures.
	And they reported back to me that what they found was a huge re-plastered area in the Queen's Chamber on the wall that was around the corner from where the holes were drilled in the passage.
	Wow.
	Like something big had been taken out Yes.
	And they re-plastered the wall.
	Furthermore, they found up in the Grand Gallery, which is this sloping, 26-degree, 7-corbeled, stair-step wall inside the pyramid, you know, incredible feat of engineering and artistry, which is directly above, the end of the Grand Gallery is directly above the Queen's Chamber, they found and photographed very large steel bracing.
	Like someone had put these massive steel bracings to keep it from falling down?
	Yes.
	As someone was jackhammering in to the pyramid in the bottom, underneath, in the Queen's Chamber?
	Yes.
	Now, you don't do this with a national treasure.
	And approximately when was this?
	This was in 87.
	And after all this went on, that's when I'm sitting, you know, a few months later.
	Richard, they think the actual drilling, uh, jackhammering went on in 87?
	In 87.
	Yeah.
	And this was the time when there was a bunch of Americans that went there and used some high technology to excavate the solar boat pit outside the pyramid.
	There are two solar boat pits, huge wooden boats, that were literally buried.
	They were taken apart carefully and buried in pieces.
	And the standard Egyptological theory is that they were for the Pharaoh, you know, his solar boat.
	That would be symbolically reassembled in his afterlife, and he would use it to sail across the sky.
	Have you ever met Zahi?
	Uh, no.
	No, you haven't.
	Alright, Zahi's quite a character.
	Oh yeah?
	Yes.
	And, um, Zahi's biggest passion is making the world believe that the Egyptians and the Egyptians alone built the pyramids.
	And he's got some pretty damn good evidence.
	Well, does he or doesn't he?
	He does if you look at it one way, and he doesn't if you look at it another way.
	Like a lot of these things, it's right on the edge of the razor blade.
	And it will take a smoking gun to tip it one way or the other.
	And my vote is that he's not right.
	That what he's trying to do is to basically, from pure nationalism, you know, keep the Egyptian name and lights up there.
	There is a lot of that in Zahi.
	But as a matter of fact, that the pyramids were there when the Egyptians as a culture formed.
	And they just inherited them, which is perfectly fine.
	You know, because the stuff we're talking about... Let me finish this story and then we'll get on with Mars.
	The interesting thing about all this is that these people, separate people, not knowing each other, would come and tell me this stuff.
	And I tried to get the photographs from the Sedona Group.
	And when they heard what I wanted to do with them, this woman freaked out, refused to let me have them.
	Because she said that it would upset American-Egyptian relations, and it would basically show that they were covering up extraordinary stuff.
	It would have done that.
	Well, but that's what truth tends to do sometimes.
	The key thing is that you've got the Japanese in 86 finding the chambers by gravity meters.
	You've got the drilling at 86-87.
	The radioactive stand from an Egyptian representative at an official scientific meeting.
	Late in 1987, you've got my guys go there and see evidence of some huge excavation, probably with jackhammers.
	That's why the Grand Gallery was braced, because there'd be incredible vibration.
	It's directly up through the pyramid into the Grand Gallery.
	And then, at the end of 87, at this conference in L.A., you've got a guy comes up to me, out of nowhere, claiming to be the nephew of Robert Oppenheimer, and he says that there was something taken out of the pyramid in 87, put on a C-130, and spirited out the right path.
	And you let somebody like this just walk away?
	Well, what are you going to do?
	I mean, I've tried, you know, I was actually, I was signing books.
	And I was like in the middle of a whole bunch of people and I couldn't just say, you know, I'll forget about you and I'm going to run after this guy.
	I wanted him to hang around.
	I said, let's have lunch.
	You know, he just, it was just one of those things where he just stopped by to tell me something.
	And of course he had no way of knowing all of the things that I've been working on.
	Anyway, the bottom line is that the Great Pyramid is an extraordinary masterpiece of architecture and art.
	I don't think that, quote, primitives Did it.
	I think it was extraordinarily sophisticated engineering.
	I'm not alone in that.
	And there's a lot of other evidence indicating that something radioactive may have been inside.
	Possibly as a power source.
	Possibly something as primitive.
	Again, leaning toward the concept that the pyramid is or was a machine.
	A machine.
	A reactor.
	I'm thinking nuclear reactor, which would have left radioactive sand, it would have needed to have been cushioned, okay?
	And...
	Are you aware the pyramid is a thousand years younger at the top than the bottom?
	No, I'm not.
	Ah!
	No, make your case, what do you mean?
	Okay, the pyramid is put together with massive limestone blocks, right?
	Right, right.
	And then it was cased with a sheathing 22 acres of incredibly polished limestone.
	Yep, I climbed on it, I know.
	It was ripped off in the, I think it was the 9th century.
	Anyway, the core blocks are put together with crude mortar, and the way they made the mortar is that they would mix straw in with the gypsum and other stuff, and so you've got an organic compound.
	Well, a guy named Mark Langer, you know who he is?
	Yes.
	Who is the Carl Sagan of Egyptology, okay?
	Sure.
	Who was actually put through school by the Casey Foundation, Right?
	Right.
	The same folks, by the way, that put Zari through school.
	Right.
	Do you get the feeling that maybe the Casey Foundation knows more and is not telling as much as it should?
	Because they have put these two key keepers of the old guard in their key positions?
	Anyway, just a thought.
	So, Lehner does some brilliant work in his PhD climb.
	In Jerusalem, where he's able to date an old wall by means of radiocarbon dating of the mortar in the wall.
	You can't date rock or stone.
	But you can date the mortar.
	Right.
	Because the mortar has the straw.
	Right.
	And when you basically cut down the wheat... Anything biological.
	Anything biological will have a radiocarbon content.
	And we won't go into how you measure the clock, but there's a way to do that.
	And it's very well tested.
	So, Blader was able to come up with a date, a pretty good date for this wall in Jerusalem.
	Then he got the bright idea, still while he was under the influence of the Cayce people, to go to Egypt and to collect samples of mortar from the Great Pyramid.
	Makes sense.
	And a bunch of other monuments.
	To be tested, sure.
	And he took 15 samples in a spiral path going up, you know what it's like because you climbed it.
	Yes.
	Up from one corner, up to the top, and down to the other corner.
	And what he did was he divided them in two groups, and he sent one to, I think, the University of Texas.
	Yes.
	Here in the States, which has a very good radiocarbon lab.
	And he took another control group and sent it to Zurich, Switzerland, which also has a very good carbon lab.
	That's good science.
	Yep.
	And he had the most modern technique, because there used to be an old-fashioned technique
	where it took many, many ounces, or at least a few grams.
	Yes.
	There's a new technique using atomic accelerators that basically bombards the carbon with a proton beam
	and creates radioactive daughter products that they then measure that will give you,
	through a calculation, the amount of carbon and carbon-14 that was in the original sample.
	Sure.
	And for that you only need like a millionth of a gram.
	Okay, so... It's so much more sophisticated.
	The two studies results.
	Ah!
	The two studies that resulted were that in his spiral path of samples from the bottom to the top, the samples taken from the top were literally a thousand years older than the samples at the bottom.
	Which is impossible.
	Was it a linear change?
	No, no, of course it was.
	It was a logarithmic change.
	A logarithmic.
	In other words, at what point, since he had a controlled sample going from the bottom to the top, at what point did the jump take place?
	Well, remember, the pyramid is wider at the bottom.
	It's not just altitude.
	Yeah, I know.
	It's also the spacing.
	Well, to make a long story short, when I looked at all this, I thought, bingo!
	I've got him.
	Because the one thing that would skew the whole radiation curve, because remember, the dating is from cosmic rays bombarding the straw.
	Yes.
	If you have a radioactive source in the pyramid, and it's emitting neutrons... Oh, oh, oh.
	You get it?
	You get it?
	Oh, yes I do, I do.
	What it does is it beautifully skews the curve, reduces exactly what it got.
	Yes, yes.
	Lehner has been running at warp 9 from this paper for the last 10, 15 years.
	He will not even admit that he ever did the study.
	I'll be damned.
	Because, of course, it proves they've been hiding something really, really cool!
	That was taken out of there, that was radioactive.
	Yep.
	Packed in a radioactive stand to keep it, you know, shockproof from earthquakes.
	And fueled the pyramid as a machine.
	Produced electricity to make it do whatever it was supposed to do.
	And some night when we have more time, I'll go into... Oh, Richard, I always have time.
	What do you think... Well, we have a lot of other stuff I want to get to.
	Oh, fine.
	What do you think that machine might have been?
	The Pyramid?
	Yeah.
	Hyperdimensional generator, of course.
	To achieve... To achieve, um... Well, several things.
	One is to achieve a older state of consciousness for people in the King's Chamber.
	For things in the King's Chamber.
	Right?
	Okay.
	And that's where the whole idea of, you know, pharaohs and afterlife and flying to the stars and all that came from, because it's, again, a warped version of the real physics of real stuff.
	The other thing has to do with where it sits on the Earth.
	The pyramid is precisely, well, within a few arc minutes, of 30 degrees north.
	Right.
	There's a whole bunch of pyramids around the Earth.
	That's correct.
	That all, curiously, are at 30 degrees north.
	Yep.
	30 degrees is a key hyper-dimensional angle.
	If you're on a rotating planet, and it's spinning, and it's got mass, and you don't want it to tip over!
	So... I think the pyramid was an effort by the last epoch of high civilization.
	The same folks that left this stuff off Cuba?
	Yes.
	To keep the damn planet from tipping over.
	In other words, to keep from happening to Earth whatever happened to Mars, perhaps?
	Among several times, yes.
	So that by the time they left Mars, they had with them this technology?
	Of course, they of course retained it.
	Which they then brought to Earth, and in deference to Zahi, perhaps somehow, Tom Sawyer of the Egyptians in the building?
	I don't think so.
	I think the Egyptians found Giza As the plateau, pretty much the way it was.
	But Richard, you can go to Giza, and you can go, not where most people go, but to the gravesite of the workers.
	Oh yeah.
	I've been there.
	But we don't know what they were working on.
	Remember, there's huge, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of mastabas, those kind of coffin-shaped burial chambers all around the pyramids.
	But they were obviously working on something at Giza.
	I mean, you can, their archaeological digs are now digging up Um, uh, gigantic eating facilities and kitchens and, you know, the kind of logistics that would have been required for an enormous working force, Richard.
	That's pretty strong evidence.
	Now, what, who's to say?
	Well, it's strong evidence they were building something, but we don't know what.
	Now, they may have been building, they may have been building the Kefirn Pyramid, and or the Mycenaean Pyramid, which is the two pyramids flanking the Great Pyramid.
	Well, as I suggested, perhaps they were essentially Tom Sawyer'd by the, by Those who immigrated from Mars.
	You almost said the M word.
	I almost said the Martian.
	James from Anchorage, Alaska, fast blasted me the following, pretty interesting stuff, in view of what we were talking about.
	He said, perhaps the radiation is the reason that the people, in quotes, got sick the first time the pyramid was entered.
	You'll recall the mummy's curse, or what they thought was the mummy's curse.
	Uh, when the pyramid was first entered.
	People did, in fact.
	Yeah, except that wasn't the pyramid.
	The pyramid's been entered for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years.
	We don't know how far back, you know, people were going in.
	We know the Arabs were going in in the 9th century.
	Yes.
	You know, uh, Alma Moon story.
	But there were many myths.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	It's, it's the, it's the tombs in the, uh, Valley of the Kings that Carter and others, when they opened them, People got ill.
	But didn't that apply to almost all the tombs there?
	No.
	It's been one of those... I would call it an urban legend, but I have to call it an Egyptian urban legend.
	I guess.
	I mean, but would they really know the difference between radiation sickness then and whatever else they thought it was?
	Well, but it would have to be so high.
	And remember, we've had tourists going in and out of the pyramid.
	It's true.
	To pass those rooms, you know, for centuries.
	And no one has fallen mysteriously ill.
	Very good point.
	And, you know, there are hundreds of thousands of tourists every year.
	No, it was, I believe, that the archaeologist, when he said, you know, high, he meant anomalously high by background standards.
	Right.
	Not killingly high.
	And if you think about it, depending upon the kind of radiation and the kind of reactor If it was, as I estimate, you know, 13,000 years old... Then the worst of it could be far past.
	Exactly.
	The short-lived isotopes that are created by neutron bombardment go away relatively soon.
	You bet.
	And, again, it's what the sand is made of that produces the radioactive problem.
	And sand is pretty neutral.
	In other words, glass is... Glass is... It doesn't really get radioactive.
	That's why they want to I haven't looked at it in a long time, Richard, but you may recall that I brought a piece of sandstone from the pyramids.
	Yes.
	And it wasn't supposed to come out of Egypt, but I've got it.
	And I haven't looked at it in a long time, but it had an effect of glowing in the dark.
	Well, what you told me when it was brought back by Larry Hunter.
	Remember Larry?
	Oh, yes.
	And he gave me a piece and he gave you a piece.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	soul watches. That's right. A radium dial watch. That's right. And you said that when you opened
	the drawer you were astonished to find the watch glowing brilliantly. That's right. Okay. I have
	been asking how many years now for you to please find that piece because it's a crucial part of
	the hyperdimensional puzzle. It is somewhere in the house Richard. I have searched and I have
	searched and searched. It's here somewhere I guarantee. You need to find it because what I
	think is going on and again when you do find it I want you to do it again in video.
	Yeah, I remember taking it into the closet and noticing the same effect that you're purging.
	Okay, what it would do if it literally was altered by its presence in the hyperdimensional machine known as the pyramid, it becomes a kind of a little mini-gate of its own.
	And one of the things that we know about the hyperdimensional physics is that it changes
	radioactive decay constants.
	The radioactive materials are not immutable.
	They do not have an immutable half-life.
	The half-life can change depending on the physics, depending upon the hyperdimensional
	environment in which they are.
	Since the pyramid was this massive machine that was literally, you know, connecting itself
	to hyperspace when it was energized, all the stuff in it, all the limestone, particularly
	limestone that was part of the piece that Larry brought back, which was from those bags
	that were brought down from above the chamber.
	Would have been affected.
	Yes, would have been affected.
	Would have been radically affected.
	And when you bring them close to a radioactive source, what it would do would be to increase
	the natural radioactive rate, which means the radium, I forget what the half-life of
	radium is, but it's a certain number of atoms per minute, all right, that produce the little
	glow of the phosphorescent paint.
	Yes.
	If they were to be increased, in other words, the number of fissions were to increase significantly because of proximity to this little piece of hyperdimensional tunneling.
	Yes.
	then the radioactive rate would go up, the phosphor would be bombarded greater, the light
	would become greater, and I would not do this for a long period of time, Art.
	Yeah, it wasn't a little bit, Richard. The increase in brightness on the dial was so
	bright that you could see the light on the piece of limestone.
	Holy cow!
	Yeah, I know.
	Really, in other words... That's wonderful!
	Really, really bright.
	And you've got to remember that's inside of a dark closet drawer.
	I mean, a chest of drawers drawer.
	Right.
	You know, with socks and stuff.
	So it was maybe, what would you say, ten times brighter than it normally would be?
	Yeah.
	Really?
	Shockingly bright.
	Well, the light is proportional to the radioactive decay.
	So the number of fissions per second, per minute, was probably a factor of 10 greater.
	So the half-life was reduced by a factor of 10.
	You gotta find this piece.
	It's a real important piece, and I don't think Zion's gonna let us go back and get any others.
	Not a chance.
	Okay?
	Exactly.
	Not a chance.
	But, if there's one piece, and one mysterious In fact, there must be others.
	And it was only through the grace of you-know-who that we got a piece.
	And somewhere in your house, there is history.
	Ramona, please find it for him.
	Yeah, if anybody can find it, she will.
	Women can always find things.
	I don't know how they do it.
	I know.
	I know.
	I don't either.
	It's eerie.
	All right, well, so... All of that, though, if even...
	Perhaps true.
	Eats away at what Zahi really fervently wishes to believe and does believe, Richard.
	He believes the Egyptians and only the Egyptians built this.
	Although he's at a loss to explain How?
	And he truly is at a loss.
	He will just stop and tell you, I have no idea.
	Aw, but Art, that is the mystery, isn't it?
	That's what he says.
	Well, but I think that's a political position, because remember, if you've experimented with pieces, you know, with watches and radioactive stuff, he's had access to all this for decades.
	You don't imagine that he hasn't been listening to the show.
	I mean, he used to listen, I know, regularly.
	I know.
	So, you know, if he heard us back when we did this first show, which was what?
	About five, six years ago?
	When Larry brought those pieces back?
	Yes.
	It was before I left Weehawken.
	That was in 97.
	So it was somewhere around 97.
	Yeah, and he was really angry too, Richard.
	That's when he was threatening to behead people and toss them in pits and stuff.
	Oh, yeah.
	And anyway, he could have easily gotten a piece.
	In fact, he could have been the reason why there was a whole remodeling campaign for those chambers above the King's Chamber.
	By the way, he's building a big wall around everything over there now.
	I've heard.
	Do you know that?
	I've heard.
	I've seen sketches.
	It's pretty weird.
	Yeah, it is weird.
	Given that this stuff's been sitting there, you know, available to tourists and anybody else for literally thousands of years, the idea that the keeper of the flame in the 21st century would be building a wall to guard access to the pyramids, what more can happen to them?
	I don't know.
	His political stock over there has been rising quickly.
	So I've heard.
	Yes, he's doing very, very well.
	Well, we're getting close to that magic date of 2012.
	And I said one of the models is that that's the year we make contact.
	Another model is that that's the year when they finally admit what you and I are discussing right now,
	namely that we're a lot older and a lot more extraordinary than we think,
	and we have much deeper roots in time and space and history than anybody has dared to believe.
	Well, that's a kind of contact.
	And I would say that while that would shake up a lot of people,
	I think the world would probably be able to live with it.
	I mean, it's an ancient, dead civilization.
	Yes, it will cause us to have discussions about our own roots,
	but it's not going to tear society into little pieces, knowing that something half a million years old and dead is
	on Mars.
	Unless there is technology there which could be extraordinarily important here, you know, we tend to turn every high technology into a weapon system.
	Well, you know what NASA would say.
	They would say, look, You're out of your mind.
	If we had evidence of a city on Mars or libraries that we could go and visit, we'd be screaming from the top of the building here in Houston for all to hear that we need the money for a manned mission to Mars to go read what's in the libraries.
	I mean, we are NASA.
	That's our business, to go into space.
	We love manned missions.
	We are NASA.
	We'd scream it at the top of our lungs.
	And they're lying.
	Let's go back to the pictures.
	Click on picture number five.
	Okay.
	You got it?
	It'll take a moment.
	Okay.
	But you have broadband, right?
	Yeah, I do.
	Okay.
	I do.
	I have a dial-up.
	You have dial-up now, do you?
	Yes.
	Uh-huh.
	Which helps me from keeping them, you know, from breaking in.
	I mean, they are constantly trying to break into this poor little computer.
	Whoever they are.
	And they just can't do it because it keeps knocking it off the air.
	Yeah, two words, Richard.
	Firewall.
	Of course.
	Firewall.
	Anyway, have you got number five up?
	No.
	I'm sitting here and I'm bouncing all over the place.
	And in fact, trying to get back to my site right now and it's very, very busy.
	Okay.
	Somebody's looking?
	Yeah, somebody's looking.
	Well, what you're going to see when it comes up, and for people who have actually been able to get it, you know, downloaded, it's a composite of three images.
	The two top images are a black and white on the left and a color version on the right of a nighttime infrared that was taken on March 21st of this year, released in October in the PDS data dump that we were all anticipating.
	And it was the closest nighttime image to Cydonia Until Gorelick, Banff, whatever his real name is, released the image on the 31st, claiming that was the 9th MIR he had taken on the 24th of October.
	Mm-hmm.
	You got it up to date?
	I'm sorry, which number?
	Uh, number 5.
	Number 5.
	I am now at number 5.
	Okay, yes, I've got it.
	Okay.
	At the top, you'll see two images side-by-side.
	Mm-hmm.
	Black and white on the left, color on the right.
	Correct.
	Each of these images released in three bands of color.
	The nighttime images, did you know that?
	Well, yeah, I think I can see green and blue.
	Oh yeah, green and blue and purplish and all that.
	Yeah.
	Those are from three bands.
	I think it's band four, band nine, and band ten, I believe.
	Okay.
	At the bottom is the purported nighttime IR.
	And the first thing you've got to know is that the image taken on the left, the top black image, black and white?
	Yes.
	It was taken on March 21, which is just about the dead of Martian winter.
	It was taken only 100 miles away from Cydonia.
	Okay.
	So it's the same geology, same geography.
	Right.
	If you look at the bottom image, that's the one that was supposedly taken at the height of summer.
	Mm-hmm.
	October 24th turns out to be just after the summer solstice in the Northern Hemisphere.
	Okay.
	I told you we get the solstice there.
	Okay, meaning what?
	Meaning the first day of summer.
	Yes, I know.
	Well, if you look at the two images, You said before that the IR night image from Sedonia was kind of crappy.
	Yeah.
	It's full of noise.
	Yep.
	Why?
	That's supposed to be a summer image.
	And it's comparable to the winter image just above it.
	Mm-hmm.
	So go to number six.
	All right.
	Six.
	This is going to be how we ferret out the truth.
	Whoever's trying to keep this stuff from us, this is their undoing.
	This is a graph that was made up by Dr. Bob Zubrin.
	Okay.
	It's basically an equivalent Martian Earth calendar.
	The outside orbit is Mars.
	The inside orbit is Earth.
	The center is the Sun.
	Okay.
	And the very outer ring, you've got the seasons, right?
	Right.
	Those are seasons in the northern hemisphere of Mars.
	Okay.
	So as Mars goes around, It goes through these various seasons if you're at Cydonia.
	Gotcha.
	Summer, spring, winter, fall, etc, etc.
	Right.
	Okay.
	If you look at the red dot... Yes?
	That's where Mars would have been when the October 24th image was taken, if it was taken on the 24th.
	Okay.
	And you can see that it says Northern Summer.
	See the little line just to the right of it?
	Yes.
	That's the solstice.
	Okay.
	That's the peak of Martian summer.
	Gotcha.
	The little blue dot, by the way, is where the Earth would be.
	Alright.
	Alright?
	Go to number seven.
	Okay, uh, summarizing as we go, Richard, what are we... What are we saying here?
	Okay, number seven is a plot of the two images, the daytime IR and the nighttime IR.
	Yes.
	And all I've done is to put a little compass between them.
	I see that, yeah.
	And I've shown an angle of 35 degrees north above the east-west line, which is the line that goes... Correct.
	...left-right.
	Yes.
	And 35 degrees south.
	Right.
	If you're at Cydonia, with a tilt of Mars which is 25 degrees, that is the maximum angle at which the sun will set in the summer.
	This is summer solstice sunset?
	Yep.
	The upper green line?
	Yes.
	The lower green line is the winter solstice sunset.
	So as on Earth, if you sit as I do here in the wonderful New Mexico desert and watch sunsets out my windows, You can see the sun tracks back and forth along the horizon as the year progresses.
	That's right.
	This is what the Indians used to do.
	There's a whole solstice marker at, um, Chaco Canyon left by the Anasazi.
	All right, all of this that you're doing is basically to tell us... Well, we're sitting there, all right?
	So what I've done, and now you want to go to number eight, all right?
	Okay.
	Number eight.
	Okay.
	What I did was simply look at the slopes, the cliffs.
	And there's this little feature that we call the island, because it looks like a big island, you know, like a flat mesa.
	Deep cliffs sitting in the middle of the Sedonia Plain.
	If you look at the right-hand image, you'll see that it's brightly lit on its southwestern face.
	Correct.
	So that would be where the sun would be.
	Where the sun is shining.
	Yes.
	That lower green arrow.
	Yeah, that's how IR will show.
	That's right.
	It heats up the cliff during the day.
	Gotcha.
	And then at night, it glows in the infrared and your camera picks up the glow.
	Yep, yep, yep.
	So if it's not lit, it can't glow.
	Right.
	If you'll notice, the glow stops basically at the western tip.
	It does, yes.
	It does not extend around to the northwestern part of the sun.
	Which tells us exactly where the sun was, yes.
	And the sun, the green arrow, is where the sun would have been coming from on the 24th.
	Yeah.
	This picture cannot Repeat.
	None have been taken on October 24th.
	All right.
	I'm going to repeat myself.
	All right.
	Let's say that you've proven this and that they didn't take the picture when they said they took it.
	Yep.
	Meaning what?
	Why would they lie?
	Well, that's my question, Richard.
	No, no, no, no.
	That's my question.
	No, no.
	That's my question.
	You're the one who's been looking into this.
	That's my question, Richard.
	Why would they lie?
	I'm not NASA.
	I don't know.
	I can suppose.
	I can suspect.
	I can presume.
	I haven't got an affidavit from somebody saying yet, because we will get it someday.
	Obviously, you have thoughts about it, though.
	I have thoughts.
	What would be the motivation?
	Well, obviously... Alright, let me tell you what we now know from this geometry that this picture was taken.
	It was taken in January of 2002, not in October.
	But in January of this year.
	Okay.
	Months and months earlier, right?
	Yes, okay, fine.
	That's a hell of a lot of time.
	It is.
	Why would they conceal that they had taken the pictures in?
	Well, for one thing, in January, what was NASA doing with the Odyssey mission?
	They weren't even in the right orbit yet to begin their formal mapping.
	They were doing, and there's some linked releases from JPL that are going to be in our story tomorrow evening.
	Talking about tweaking the orbit, doing little burns here, doing little burns there, circularizing, adjusting, etc., etc.
	That's when they took this image.
	In other words, the first thing NASA did when it got to Mars, and after the aerobraking, it took these pictures of Cydonia and then lied to us about it.
	It didn't admit it.
	It stuck a guy named BAMF slash Gorlick over at Enterprise, claiming that they couldn't take any pictures.
	I remember.
	In the infrared in the night.
	I remember.
	Because it was too cold.
	I recall.
	Well, we have now proven that he lied about that, and he's lied about this.
	Why would an official of the U.S.
	government keep palming off lies on us?
	Go to the program section.
	Tonight's guest, Richard C. Hoagland, first hour.
	The DNM photographs.
	Take a look.
	There is no question about what's there.
	The only question is, how did it get there?
	And there are only two answers to that question.
	One is... They were there when they took the picture.
	The implications of that are obvious.
	The other is...
	Somebody decided to put Arabic there and broke the chain of custody of the photograph.
	Either one of those two answers, if what we see is what we see, is an incredible story.
	So now we get to this part of it.
	I think it's important and Richard has some explaining to do.
	He held on to these photographs for three years.
	Right, Richard?
	Yes.
	Three years, that's a long time for something this incredible.
	So, how did that come to pass?
	Well, because I gave my word to Tom Van Flandern a few days after I found them and was wondering what the hell, you know, but I mean, the question you put is absolutely accurate.
	There's only two possibilities.
	They're on Mars or they were done on Earth.
	Either one is huge.
	The question is, how do you go forward?
	How do you figure it out?
	How do you get to the truth?
	The question is, why did you promise Tom?
	Well, he called me up and he said, you know, we were talking about the cat box and all the stuff we talked about on the air a lot, and then he said he had something really big.
	And it was like pulling, you know, henesties to get it out of him.
	Finally, he made me promise on a stack of monuments that I would never tell anybody, and that until he gave me permission, I could not read a word of it.
	And then he proceeded to tell me that another member of the science group, he belonged to SPSR.
	See, he knows you. It's too bad. I mean, there's no way you're going to refuse with that kind of...
	Of course not. When a friend comes to you and says, I'll tell you something, but it's
	inconfident to me. Look, I'm old school. I grew up in my press side of my career with Walter Crump.
	Alright, alright.
	What I want to know next is why did Tom not want it out?
	Because he said that another scientist at SPSR had found them, and the timeline looked like he'd found them before I did.
	But more important, they wanted to put them in a paper, a peer-reviewed scientific paper, to walk in the front door at Nature, or Science.
	Nature was the preferred journal then.
	The most prestigious scientific journal in the world.
	And put them on the table along with a lot of other enigmas on the image to get a scientific debate started in the mainstream science community.
	And I thought that that was a good idea.
	But I argued strenuously that there had to be two roads to that.
	There had to be two takes to what they meant.
	One was, yeah, they might be on Mars, but the other is that they also might well be on Earth.
	But why not just open it to the public and conduct a simultaneous investigation?
	Why hide it from the public?
	This is where things get murky, and it pains me no end to say this, Tom.
	But I guess I need to say this.
	I have since discovered in the last week that Tom Van Flandern apparently and his cronies back there have had a hidden agenda.
	And the agenda is to basically deep-six any possibility that NASA and JPL could have covered this stuff up for 30 years.
	And they have been the stalking horse for the, they can do no wrong, and if we find it, it's because they didn't really recognize it until just yesterday.
	And he has been very carefully cultivating me as a, quote, friend to try to get information out of Enterprise and our work that they could then use politically to other ends.
	And this all came to a head at this bizarre press conference that he held last Thursday at the National Press Club, where he didn't tell us until the last minute he was even going to do it.
	And then he took a whole bunch of work from a whole bunch of people, ourselves included, And parade them in front of the people of Washington without any attribution to where the original data had come from, which is the absolute, you know, worst sin you can do in the world of science.
	You have got to reference and attribute other people's work.
	I think that we're dealing here with a potential stalking horse for the agency itself, for that group in NASA.
	Remember, most of NASA, 18,000 people, is honest.
	But there is a tiny group that has been manipulating this issue for over 20 years.
	And I think Van Flanern has fallen under the influence of that group.
	And it's like, you know, he got me to promise not to do anything with these because they're so politically explosive.
	And then they just sat on them for year after year after year until finally, He debuted them himself last Thursday at this press conference, which of course has freed me from my promise, and now an appropriate investigation can go forward.
	Damn, Richard.
	Wow.
	And I feel really bad because I'm the one that promoted him for your show.
	I put him on this show, I supported his science, he has a stunningly accurate, critically important model, The exploding planet hypothesis, it will be proved ultimately to be correct.
	It is a huge part of the hidden Mars story.
	But what I've also found is that there has been an agenda for the last three years, and I can't reveal some sources on that yet, where Mr. Van Flandern has been trying to basically take over the Cydonia investigation and make himself the catbird in the catbird's seat to the exclusion Of a lot of other people, including our own work.
	And if I had Tom here now, what would he say, do you think?
	He would say that, you know, they're honest people in NASA, and that we can't prove conspiracy and cover up, and we don't want to damage reputations, and it's bunk.
	You know, this is not an academic exercise.
	This is for all the onions.
	This is for the heart and soul of the human race.
	If there really are beings who built things on Mars, who might be our lineal ancestors, who in fact might have, as he is proposing, put letters on the planet that are connected to our own alphabet, which is an astonishing idea if it's true, Then you can't pussyfoot, you can't timidly walk around and not look at the people who are deliberately, like Mike Malin, not telling us the truth.
	Mike Malin, the night of that press conference a week ago on April 5th, the third anniversary of the cat box image, put another 10,230 images out on the web that he'd been sitting on for about a year.
	And three more shots around the face.
	On Mars, except he can't seem to hit it.
	He's like those stormtroopers in the Star Wars movies.
	You know how the safest thing to be on a Star Wars movie was somebody not in a screen suit?
	In a white suit?
	Yes.
	Because the other guys couldn't shoot.
	That's right.
	Well, Malin keeps taking pictures all around the face, and we've got a mosaic up on the web tonight.
	If you go to EnterpriseMission.com, you will see a story called Letters from Mars at the very top.
	By the way, right under it, there is a link to the PAX Television Network.
	Our show is now up on the official lineup.
	Don't forget to remind me the date again, please.
	April 27th, Friday evening, three weeks from tomorrow night.
	We will have a one-hour special on the PAX Television Network with all the people, including Van Flandern.
	He's going to be represented, you know, on that special with his various ideas.
	Basically, the history of the Sidoni investigation to date.
	Including Arthur C. Clarke's provocative comments.
	And I've got another one for you tonight.
	Anyway, before we close this out, I want to say one more thing.
	You know, what you have said is so serious.
	I think that that meeting, remember there was a meeting at NASA headquarters in the fall of 97.
	And Ben Flanner was there, David Webb was there, DiPietro was there, Mark Carlotta was there, I think that covers everybody.
	Oh, and McDaniel.
	And at this meeting where nobody else was allowed in, I wasn't invited, you know, I certainly get me five light years away, there was a conversation.
	And the guys came out afterwards representing that NASA looked very seriously at this and was going to take new images of Cydonia.
	And nothing happened, nothing happened, nothing happened, and you know and I know and the few million people who listen to us over our shoulders know that it was this audience and the faxes they sent to Dan Golden and those emails and the copies to all the networks that got those pictures taken three years ago last week.
	Well, I have a feeling, and I can't prove it, I've got one first-hand report from one of the participants that I can't disclose, but there were some promises made in that meeting.
	That I think the American people need to know about.
	And what happened is the behavior of each of those participants after they came out of that meeting completely changed.
	People who would talk to us wouldn't anymore.
	People who had written books claiming that NASA, with documentation, had been covering up on Mars for 20 some years, on your show recanted them.
	Remember that?
	Yes.
	I mean, a bizarre series of events.
	So if I was a district attorney, and I was looking to a key point in time when everybody went weird, when they went south on the crime being committed, which is the cover-up, a la Brookings, of the greatest discovery in the history of the human race, I would focus on what happened at that meeting, and who was promised what, and what they have done since.
	Alright, Richard, I don't think you're in much communication with Tom, are you?
	Right now?
	Well, I have not talked to him for a week.
	All right.
	If he wants to answer this and wants to engage you publicly on this question, you're willing to do it?
	Sure.
	Okay.
	Just wanted to get that out of the way.
	I really think it's important that he be able to explain Why he would want to keep these bundled up for three years by making you promise in such an absolute way that you wouldn't release them.
	I really want to understand this and that may be one way.
	I have a very weird character flaw about me.
	When I give my word to a friend, I stick to it.
	I know you do.
	I know you do.
	And, uh, I know you feel violated, uh, to be able to release this now, or you obviously wouldn't, so... Well, I feel very sad, because this is not the way I would like things to turn out.
	Okay.
	Well, that invitation's up then, and, uh...
	Let me switch to something much more fun.
	Okay.
	Our friend Arthur.
	Arthur C. Clarke.
	Sir Arthur C. Clarke.
	Has been up to it again.
	Well, come on.
	I've known him 30 years.
	I can call him Arthur, all right?
	He sent an email last Saturday, which was the launch of his spacecraft to Mars.
	Remember, we're going back to Mars.
	And on Saturday morning at 11.02 Eastern Time, 2001 Mars Odyssey, which NASA has officially named after my good friend, We've got it off to Mars, right?
	Right.
	And apparently, it's the best launch they've had.
	The spacecraft has no problems.
	They're all grinning.
	It looks like it's going to do some amazing things.
	When it gets there, we'll do other shows about what it's going to find.
	But we have some specific predictions about what the instruments on this spacecraft are going to find.
	What do you think the odds are of it successfully getting there?
	Oh, I think they're 100%.
	This is 2001.
	A lot of trouble, though, with Mars stuff.
	But is it real trouble or is it more of this conspiracy fake trouble?
	Well, I don't know, either way it's trouble.
	As long as you have the heavy hand of conspirators keeping us from knowing the truth, there's not a pure science road that you can travel.
	And unless you can get rid of that aspect of this problem, you're never going to get to the bottom of things.
	Well, you know, with that I agree.
	I mean, what's on the photographs, it's undeniable.
	Chain of custody.
	We know about where you think something might have happened.
	We know about... But no matter how many times you roll this over in your mind, it's a big damn story either way.
	Either they are screwing with the pictures, as you said.
	Seriously so.
	Yep.
	Or it's really there.
	Take your pick.
	I'm not sure which is the bigger story.
	If instead of following the Van Flandern path three years ago, when, you know, remember, any case that you let get cold, it's harder and harder to get to the truth, right?
	Right.
	If we had followed the Hoagland path, which is, I would have put this stuff out, and I would have absolutely put both models on the table.
	They're on Earth, they're on Mars.
	Let's find out.
	We would have gotten mainstream reporters.
	John Holliman was still alive.
	Remember John, our friend back then at CNN?
	Of course.
	He would have absolutely flown out to Malin's shop, sat down with Malin, and said, now how the hell do you explain this?
	There would have been discussions.
	There maybe would have been a committee.
	I mean, who knows?
	You might have even gotten John McCain interested early on in the politics of this.
	The truth would have fallen out no matter where the truth lies, we would have found it.
	But now the trail is cold.
	The only route we have is that missing gap, that 36 hours.
	These photos will warm it up.
	I would hope.
	And maybe there's a guy that worked for Mailman or maybe there's a guy or gal at JPL that is an honest, patriotic American and was so incensed with what was going on, what they saw happening.
	They took the opportunity to sneak these things in, down on the DNM, which I've called the Rosetta... I mean, the humor here is... the irony here is absolutely right, because the DNM is the Rosetta Stone, in the classical model of the Rosetta Stone, which was the key to decoding Egyptian hieroglyphs, you know, back in the 1700s.
	So, to stick these letters on the DNM, which mathematically is the code key to breaking Mars, is, again, a level of humor.
	Which should not escape everybody.
	And somebody, maybe somewhere, there is a patriotic American tonight who's just waiting for a press person to say, how did those letters get on that image?
	Yeah.
	And then they'll tell the truth.
	Let me turn to Arthur now.
	Yes, yes.
	This email is pretty cool.
	He sent this a couple days ago.
	I would like to send my very best wishes to the 2001 Mars Odyssey team.
	I hope that you have better luck than the Russians.
	Because the Russians lost their 90th, Mars 96 mission.
	I recall, yes.
	I expect you've all seen the Planetary Society's Visions of Mars CD, which should have been taken there, and is at the bottom of the Pacific tonight, by the way.
	He goes on, I still hope the future colonists will have a chance of enjoying it.
	Our knowledge of our exciting little neighbor has certainly increased enormously since the far-off days when Ray Bradbury, Bruce Murray, and I met at JPL before the Viking launch.
	And Carl Sagan was also there, I should add.
	Next paragraph.
	I'm fairly convinced, this is Clark now, I'm fairly convinced from recent images that there is vegetation on Mars.
	And I wouldn't be surprised if you find something even more exciting Now, what's more exciting than vegetation?
	Are we talking herds of Martian buffalos stampeding across the pictures here?
	Large life, Richard, large life.
	Finally, then says, however, I won't believe in any Mars artifacts until I can read their number plates.
	Go ahead and find them.
	Well, Arthur, we've got some number plates on the Art Bell website at Enterprise tonight.
	Now, is that between the lines or what?
	Not that very far between the lines.
	No, it's... You know, it's clear that Sir Arthur Clarke has gone through a metamorphosis.
	It's 2001, Art.
	I mean, my take on Arthur... Do you think that he was waiting for 2001, or do you think, Richard, that he just had his epiphany, you know, recently?
	No, no.
	Remember, I've known this man a long time.
	He is a brilliant genius.
	He is as sharp now at 84 as he was when I met him 30-some years ago.
	No, this is part of their plan.
	This is part of why they were telling us about 2001.
	It's prime.
	And I think, and I'm going to put in the new version of Monuments that we're almost ready to put out, some thoughts about him and me and Kubrick, which we've never put on paper before.
	But I think this is part of a plan, part of the disclosure plan.
	Not the cover-up crowd, but the get-it-out-there crowd.
	And I see Arthur is having a wonderful time.
	I mean that email is dripping with his classic humor, but it's boing right to the point.
	It's all so very interesting, isn't it?
	Isn't it cool?
	Yes.
	I mean, on the upside, look at the extraordinary things we're about to experience.
	When this mission, when his mission, and I'm going to call it that from now on, why not, gets to Mars in October, and finally gets into the proper orbit at the end of December, we could have the most astonishing Christmas present.
	Because it carries an exquisite color camera.
	With like 15 or 20 different spectral bands.
	God, I hope it makes it.
	And if there is vegetation, they will find chlorophyll.
	Absolutely.
	And there will be no doubt, from the science itself, that we've got vegetation on Mars.
	Now, see, Arthur's not a dummy.
	He knows what he's saying, because there can't be vegetation on the current Mars that NASA's given us.
	You know, you've got to admit, from Arthur's perspective, Christmas 2001 would be... Wouldn't that be cool?
	Oh, that'd be just the right time to have that kind of news delivered from his point of view, I'm sure.
	It's coming.
	And I'm telling you, this one's gonna make it.
	This mission cannot, will not, must not disappear.
	Well...
	I don't know.
	I've done shows with Richard before where something or another disappeared and it's always some godforsaken thruster reason or burn up or, you know, atmospheric expansion or anything can happen.
	So knock on wood, Richard.
	We want to know.
	Listen, my friend.
	Thank you.
	OK, Art.
	And talk to you soon, I'm sure.
	Till next time.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, good night.
	Sweet dreams are made of fear.
	Who am I to disagree?
	I travel the world and the 70s.
	Everybody's looking for something.
	Some of them want to use you.
	Some of them want to get used by you.
	Some of them want to abuse you.
	Some of them want to be abused.
	On the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	Oh, we're on a ride, all right.
	Question is, what kind of ride are we on now?
	With regard to what Richard has said, uh, of these images, I am of the opinion that when you look at them, if these are genuine, underline, big underline, under if, because we're gonna get to that part in a moment, if they're genuine, then the image, image number two clearly is a city.
	A city on Mars.
	Now, that's what's at stake here.
	However, there's a part of this that I'm having real difficulty, uh, digesting, and that is, The way that it has come to Keith and to Richard, the manner in which it's come, I mean, it's very, very suspect from my point of view.
	Secret acronyms, innuendos, secret messages by spoofed people on the internet.
	I really have a difficult time with that, and when you're considering balancing in your, you know, the way I do with everything, and I hope you do too, you sit out there and balance what we've got here.
	On the one hand, do we have a real city on Mars?
	That's not trivial news, is it?
	And it does look like a city if it's genuine, but is it genuine?
	Well, we're dealing with people sending messages in chat rooms and crap like that?
	That really begins to weigh heavily in the other hand on the BS scale, you know, it starts to weigh pretty heavily in my mind.
	I've had plenty of experience with the internet and as wonderful an instrument as the internet is, and it is a wonderful instrument, it's absolutely Not applying to anything.
	I mean, our society needs to get around to that.
	There needs to be some way that you can be identified on the Internet.
	And there are certain ways, but anything, nearly anything, a good hacker will tell you can be spoofed.
	Period.
	So either this is the real McCoy, and there's a big damn city under Mars, or it's not the real McCoy.
	And as we trace how this That has all come to pass.
	I worry very heavily about the way the information has been passed, handled, and the discussion has taken place in internet chat rooms.
	Not good.
	We'll be right back.
	Alright, once again, Richard C. Hoagland.
	And of course, Keith Laney in North Carolina.
	So Richard, I said what I wanted to say there.
	I mean... No, no, no.
	You're absolutely right.
	This is the Hobson's Choice.
	It's either real or it's fake.
	No.
	The... Yeah, but the way this... The negative side of this, Richard.
	The chat rooms and all that crap.
	But Art, that's what makes this so extraordinarily interesting.
	Look, let's stand back and look at this, folks, alright?
	Here you have me, who's basically...
	the nasa public enemy number one yeah probably have not
	nasa kind words
	the the the the guys who were doing it then not the honest folks over there but the other ones
	in a very long time have i I basically claim that we are being lied to, we are being deceived, we are being led down the garden path, they are keeping all kinds of important data secret from the people who paid for it.
	You know, the old acronym that back in my days, the Cronkite, we used to call NASA, never a straight answer, has been turned, you know, up in spades.
	And this is only the latest example of many, many others.
	What is extraordinary, and what I find sociologically and politically so interesting tonight, Is that instead of just leaving us alone, this little small bunch of crazies who think there's something out there, when the agency says there's nothing.
	Well maybe somebody hates you enough to feed this to you, to go to enough trouble to... But don't you understand that this will backfire because according to the codes and headers on the image, Government property was used to prepare this hoax, if it is a hoax.
	You can prove that.
	Government time was used.
	Richard, stop.
	You can prove that.
	Huh?
	Yes.
	Yes, you can prove that.
	Absolutely.
	And, you know, there are such things as what are called Unix codes on images made by certain, you know, machines with certain software.
	Yes.
	This was created, the image of Keith Scott.
	is a copy of an image created from the spacecraft data files, which are called PNM files, and it was made according to our Unix expert.
	We have one of those.
	His name is Holger Eisenberg in Dortmund, Germany.
	He actually is getting a degree in computer science and engineering, and he works as a Unix administrator in Dortmund at the university.
	So here's an expert in Unix systems.
	He's the one who told us, when we sent him the image, that this image is made on an old government system.
	Let me concede, it came from NASA, or it came from the government.
	Let me just concede that, and let me now go on to say, Richard, imagine this, that somebody within NASA, perhaps an individual somewhere, hates you enough To set your ass up.
	Then why wouldn't they give me the image?
	Why would they go to... Because you are the hated Hoagland.
	No, no, no, no.
	It doesn't hold water.
	Well, I'm not sure it doesn't hold water.
	In other words, the question is, could somebody within NASA hate your guts enough to want to set you up?
	That's imaginable, Richard.
	Of course it's imaginable, but then why not give me the image?
	Why not get it to me?
	Because that would be too direct and too suspect.
	Well, now it's getting more, it's Occam's razor art, you know.
	You're sounding a little conspiratorial here.
	Well, I'm having to imagine, as one possibility, the whole damn thing's a setup.
	I have been pursuing, we have all been pursuing two tracks, and Keith, jump in here any time, alright?
	Two tracks from the beginning.
	It's either a setup or it's real.
	Alright, will this guy who's in the... Nothing in between.
	Will this guy in the chat room give his phone number?
	He will not give his number.
	Now, it's a kind of a cornerstone of the Constitution.
	That when you are accused of a crime, You get a chance to face your accuser.
	Keith's accuser tonight is using the Enterprise Conference to basically claim that Keith is a hoaxer, a liar, has created a fraud, has gone on your show and told 20 million people complete lies and nonsense and made up fairy tales, but he will not come on your show, Art, on your air, and say this to Keith's face.
	Now, there was a campaign, the Dukakis campaign, Where the candidates, you know, exchanged insults and accusations.
	When those accusations were not answered, people assumed that the accuser was right and the accusee was wrong.
	The fact that Mr. Gorelick does not have the moral fortitude... But how do you know it's him, Richard?
	Because I have an email right here.
	He signed on from ASU.
	I have an email right here from the... Somebody once sent out a false article about me with regard to attacking the Filipino people.
	It was sent from, they found out, UCSD.
	The UCSD campus down in San Diego.
	And so, the fact that it comes from some educational institution... Did this persist for months?
	Oh, God, Richard, this thing has been going around for years now.
	What do you mean, months?
	No, no, no, when I say it went around for years, it was a one-time shop.
	Oh, do you mean, did the original... No, it was sent once, and then... Yeah, exactly.
	Well, this is very different, because every time this person logs on from ASU, our people can track the ISP codes.
	We know exactly almost which phone he's logging on from there at the University.
	Let me read you the email from Dr. Christensen that was sent to us a couple of days ago.
	Yes.
	When we were going to come on and basically lay this case out before the country then.
	He says, I am confused by your statements regarding the FEMA's IRA data and your decision not to release your findings.
	This was a week and a half ago.
	The data were calibrated by our standard processes in the same way that is done for the FEMA science team.
	We were asking questions about what's on the website.
	I am not sure why you are suggesting that NOAA or anyone else on the FEMA's team has done anything to alter the data.
	It's a parenthetical statement for me.
	BAMF had claimed it was his right since he maintains the website.
	To alter the data, to screw up the data, to add noise to the data, to scribble on it with crayons if he wanted to.
	And that's why you were concerned.
	Christensen goes on.
	He, Noel, aka BAMF, was simply questioning how you have treated the data and how you are validating your methods and processes.
	So Christensen is validating that Noel Gorelick is in fact present at Enterprise Mission, is talking to our people, instructing them on what he's been instructing them in in terms of multispectral... How do you know that email is legit?
	Oh, from Christensen?
	Yeah.
	Because we sent an email to Christensen and got a response from Christensen.
	We had several responses.
	At the same address?
	At the same address.
	And we have some of the emails actually posted fully in our article tonight that's up on the website.
	Some of the more recent ones questioning why we have two sets of data, one that was slipped out the back door, although it really wasn't.
	You actually posted the entire message?
	We posted the entire email conversation.
	Including the headers?
	Absolutely.
	Okay.
	So no, it's Dr. Christian.
	I mean, he has been talking to us through email since I think our first article where he sent us an unsolicited email was back in March, after the first press conference.
	And so when we had technical questions, for instance, there are two 662-IR vans.
	We wondered if there was a misnumbering of the vans on the posted data.
	So basically they're charging that Keith, Keith Laney, you Keith, made all this up.
	Not they, Noel Gorelick tonight is charging.
	But we'll not come on air and charge this.
	And somebody calling himself that, or somebody in that chat room here.
	That's just a big problem, Richard.
	It's a big problem.
	There's just no way you know for sure who's on the other side of that keyboard.
	All that politics aside, I got this image from the Themis website.
	July the 25th at 10 27 or or you got redirected to another website you have to select the image so that would have had to have been an elaborate thing to do okay because you have to go to the Themis website and select the image you want to view and that's the way I selected the so-called based on there are four choices when you go to the Themis site you have a PNG you have a GIF You have a JPEG or a TIFF you can download.
	Four little windows.
	Right.
	Obviously, if you want the best quality, you go for the TIFF.
	Because it's uncompressed data.
	Right.
	But there was no way to know when Keith would do that, unless someone was following his IP address.
	He has a broadband connection, unlike those of us in the desert.
	And every time he walks on or goes anywhere, it's the same IP address.
	So an expert, like Mr. Gorelick, in computer processing, who has a nickname, BAMF, which means redirecting people to other websites without their knowledge, could easily have tracked Keith's movements, and when he got to the FEMA site, he zapped him to the image he wanted him to download that night.
	The real image.
	This is an awful lot of intrigue, Richard.
	I mean, beyond even the normal... No more intrigue than you've been proposing, that they set this whole thing up, The point is, Art, I said they were setting you up.
	Well, it's not just me, it's also Keith, it's Mike Farah, it's Enterprise, it's all the people at the Enterprise Conference.
	Well, that would be the entire group they'd want to get.
	It's all our supporters.
	Perhaps Keith has accepted everybody else they'd love to get.
	But, but, if you look at the data, alright?
	Forget all the, you know, the politics around it.
	Just look at the data.
	Look at image number four, the DNA comparison.
	There is no way you can go from the left-hand crappy image to the right-hand exquisite image.
	You can go from the right-hand image to the left-hand image by simply adding lots and lots of noise and doing a few other things.
	But you can't go the other way.
	Entropy does not reverse.
	Well, I agree with that.
	If you go to image number 5, let's stay with images for a moment here.
	Call up image number 5.
	Okay.
	This is a black and white comparison on the left of the DNM wide angle.
	Right.
	With the Big Crater north of it.
	Right.
	And on the left we have wide angle of the DNM and Big Crater in the infrared.
	I see it.
	This is only spectral Keith has made up.
	Got it.
	And in the upper part of the image we have close-ups.
	Look at the green arrows and look at the red arrows.
	On the surface of this black and white odyssey image that Keith processed, you see an exquisite rectilinear block.
	Yeah, you do.
	On the right hand, matching close-up of the infrared, the block is there glowing with heat from underneath the surface.
	Yes.
	And if you look at the green arrow, there's a deep depression.
	Yes.
	Which is not getting any sunlight, so it's cool.
	And remember on these images, cool is dark.
	Right.
	Hot is, or warm is bright.
	Absolutely.
	So there is correspondence of the surface imagery.
	With the underlying thermal infrared heat radiation.
	Well this would be the equivalent of a forgery of an incredible classic done by somebody who could duplicate that classic work and not be detected perhaps.
	And remember the header code.
	By even an expert.
	It was done by government machines.
	So if this is a hoax, this is a legal case we have against government employees working for NASA.
	Yeah, if you could ever figure out who they are.
	Well, look at Enron, look at WorldCom.
	You know, there are ways in the legal system Peter and I have been discussing for months now how to bring a case on behalf of the American people so this kind of chicanery and nonsense stops.
	You can't do this with impunity.
	This is an arrogance if it's a hoax.
	Of unimaginable proportions trashing, in principle, the quest to find out the truth about our neighborhood, our heritage, and our future.
	And it must end.
	Now, Keith, you and Richard, you've both been getting cyber attacks.
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, this is very interesting.
	Very heavy cyber attacks, right?
	My firewall is logging some big dogs, too.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, this is a bit disturbing because, you know, I mean, like last week when Richard was on the last time, I couldn't even get on the Internet.
	Not at all.
	And I mean, I've got a broadband connection and it works quickly.
	Yeah, well that can be done relatively easily.
	Oh yeah, that's a DOS attack.
	Right, DOS.
	Denial of Service.
	And the board suffered it.
	And as I'm going to understand, the ENVY website research systems, they had to come offline because of it too.
	Now, you know, this is, you know, why would they do this?
	Let's ask a question here.
	Keith, Richard, who would be more likely to do a big DOS attack?
	The government or The persons we imagine might have made this up within the government, or some stupid bunch of probably pretty smart hackers who set your butt up.
	Now they do DOS attacks, but would the government employee do DOS attacks?
	Not likely, because they're going to get nailed on the source of it.
	Alright, you are missing one crucial component.
	Like what?
	We have sources in Washington.
	We've had them for years.
	We've certainly been quoting them on your show for the last couple of years.
	Remember, about a year ago in May of 2001, I came on and I said there was going to be a really important release of data on the face on Mars the next day?
	Yes.
	And it happened?
	Yes.
	That came from our source.
	I've called him our Bush source.
	Actually, I've changed his name to Deep Space.
	No.
	Apropos of Watergate?
	Yeah.
	He has called me every single day representing the people that he is involved with.
	Yes.
	Discussing various aspects of this data.
	Telling you what?
	The data release.
	Well, I'm going to get to that, all right?
	All right.
	We don't have a lot of time.
	So, I mean, basically verifying?
	Well, he basically said this is real data.
	You've been fed the real thing.
	We've been fed the real thing.
	And what's most important for Americans to believe tonight, we have to get the rest of it.
	He is adamant, and the people behind him are, that we cannot wait one more day For Christensen to publish this data the rest of the daytime I.R.
	and most crucially the nighttime I.R.
	and in the next half hour I will explain why that will blow this case sky high.
	Yeah.
	Blown sky high.
	Maybe.
	It's hard to know.
	Is this the real McCoy or is it a big fraud?
	You got me running, going out of my mind You got me thinking that I'm wasting my time
	Don't bring me down No, no, no, no, no
	I'll tell you when I'm home, before I get out of the door Don't bring me down
	You wanna see us in a fancy dress I'm telling you we've got to change here
	Don't bring me down Boy, I don't know.
	On the one hand, we've got pictures of a city on Mars.
	I mean, if you believe they're real, then, uh, you know, if you look at it, I mean, it's a city.
	It's L.A., it's, uh, New York, uh, well, maybe not New York.
	That'd be bigger.
	Uh, but, uh, you know, it's a U.S.
	city.
	And that's image number two.
	It's one that startles me, that actually is, will send chills down your spine.
	But then, on the other hand, we have We have as much, we have more intrigue in our other hand than there is red dust, red poof dirt on Mars.
	I mean we've got chat rooms and redirect websites where secret pictures were passed and then later denied and we have other people in chat rooms calling people liars and the rest of it and a lot of this done through the internet.
	And I'm very, very, very leery of the Internet.
	Very leery.
	I love the Internet.
	I have a particularly high-speed connection.
	Got about a T3 here, actually.
	So I dearly love it.
	We use the hell out of it.
	It's a useful tool, but it's also totally subject... You know, I saw something earlier on CNN that about Forty-some percent of what's sent on the, uh, to anybody, the average person, in email on the internet today is about 40% is spam.
	40% is spam.
	And I can tell you, personally, because I recognize the viruses so easily, that of the email I get every day, and that would be, you know, thousands of emails, two or three thousand typically, very typically, 10% of them are viruses.
	10, fully 10% of emails I'm getting are viruses.
	Now, I don't use a virus protection program.
	I occasionally scan with one.
	I don't need it.
	They're so recognizable.
	MyBeautifulWhiteWife.bat.
	Japanese girl versus playboy.
	It goes on and on with EXEs, BATPIFs, every kind of imaginable Access, they can try to get to your machine to give you a virus.
	There's a million of them out there and they're very easy to spot.
	The internet is just rife with people who are masquerading, people who are spoofing, people who are using computers to send out spam email.
	It's just a wreck, a disaster up there.
	And so you've got to measure that in your other hand as you listen.
	To the history of this information so far, you've got to put that into the equation.
	It's a pretty heavy weight, I would say.
	I want to bring the conversation back to something that approaches some science here.
	Okay.
	Because I think we're focusing too narrowly on the... I mean, we all know that the Internet is a Wild West town.
	Yep, yep.
	That notwithstanding, the internal consistency of this data and its match with A completely separate mission mounted from halfway around the planet from the Soviet Union over 10 years ago, 12 years ago, and what they found with a similar instrument has got to be understood.
	When you look at the BBC coverage of the, um, Phobos 2 mission to Mars.
	Right.
	That was laid out in London at the Science Museum with a whole bunch of very prestigious Russian scientists that were allowed to come out to the West and lay out the data.
	Yes.
	Before it all disappeared.
	And I've got the videotape from that program.
	You see in their imagery essentially identical buried subterranean structures to what we're seeing on this data tonight.
	Now, their camera was not as sophisticated because it was ten years ago, or more.
	Right.
	It was not in the multi-spectral bands that we now appreciate, you know, that we can look at it, courtesy of Keith Laney and his process.
	But you can see the relationship.
	It's the same!
	And, of course, it fits the model.
	Remember, our title model of Mars says that you had a thriving civilization, and something went radically wrong.
	And you had a tidal release, a planet blows up, Ocean slosh, and you basically bury everything in miles of gunk.
	And in some places, it will be more preserved than others.
	And in some places, the water, instead of cascading down, is a huge tidal wave, a la the scene in Deep Impact.
	Remember where the tidal wave rushes over New York?
	Yeah.
	That would have smashed the things we're seeing down there flat.
	This water rose.
	And one of the things that I didn't get to earlier in the evening was our model is a little more complicated than just a layer of dust filling these deep canyons with structures.
	Alright?
	It's a two-component model.
	What we think we're looking at is the city encased in ice with a layer of dust on top.
	And the infrared is going through the dust, which is probably relatively thin, Through a much thicker layer of ice that basically is the waters of the Martian oceans that rose and flooded this shoreline.
	Because this used to be an ancient shoreline.
	I might understand how the IR would get through the dust.
	How does it get through ice?
	Because ice is transparent in certain bands in the infrared.
	Particularly in the thermal infrared.
	Okay.
	In the near-infrared, it's opaque.
	But when you get far out into the farther infrared, it opens up again because it's like the atmosphere.
	Alright, thank you.
	You know, there are windows... I just need it to understand.
	Okay.
	So, you know, ice visually is transparent, isn't it?
	You can look through it.
	You're asking me?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, unless a bunch of people skate on it, then it's hard to see.
	Okay, but I mean, if it's frozen... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	It's clear.
	...in pristine form, clear... That's right.
	It's clear.
	So there are conditions under which you can get enormous transparency.
	In fact, the U.S.
	Navy has a great deal of data from the Arctic.
	You know, from submarines underneath... Right.
	...the polar ice caps.
	Sure.
	And, in fact, we tried to get some of that data from our source, and there was a bit of a tizzy.
	Because when we asked for it, some people thought we'd actually been given classified data, and we had a bit of a dust-up earlier last week, until it was clarified that no one had given us anything that we weren't supposed to have.
	So we're looking at every aspect of this, and I want to bring you now back to more data.
	Look at image number... I think it's six.
	Alright?
	Hold on.
	Image number six.
	It's a side-by-side comparison.
	Okay, this is a final one, actually.
	Okay, I'm at six.
	Okay.
	It's a side-by-side comparison.
	You have the graphs on it?
	Yep.
	Okay.
	On the left is the data Keith retrieved from the Themis site.
	On the right is the current version, we think, of the Themis data on the site.
	Look at the graph at the top.
	You see the crosshairs over the image?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	What Envy does is allows you to lay two lines like this, and it plots the intensity in three colors of the vertical line and the horizontal line.
	Right.
	I believe the horizontal line is up on top, the vertical line is underneath the pictures.
	Right.
	Look at the top line just because it's simpler, alright?
	That's the horizontal line, which goes across the fort, by the way, over on the left.
	Yes.
	And all the way to the right.
	Yeah, I see that.
	If you look at the graph, notice that as the Yes.
	Yeah, it does.
	That is interesting.
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	It goes right to the bottom.
	Yeah.
	Zero.
	Yeah, it does.
	Zero is the noise.
	Then it comes back up.
	Now, the three colors are exquisitely separated.
	That is interesting.
	And they're very clear.
	I mean, this is clean, clean, clean, clean data.
	Yeah.
	You don't get better data than this.
	Now, move to the right.
	Yeah.
	Look at the same image crossing the same region of the image with the version that's on the FEMA's website.
	It's it's it's crap.
	It's noisy as hell Yeah, it is.
	It's absolutely full of noise now.
	Our model is that someone took the real data Yeah, which has the blocks has the city has everything we talked about tonight.
	No added the noise and Vacuumed off the rectilinear geometries after probing some people as to whether they found them.
	Yeah, I clearly see what the allegation here is, Richard.
	You know, they just noisied the whole thing up, is what you're saying.
	Exactly!
	And they're claiming it's real and we now have three different versions that have changed over the space of the last month.
	This requires a congressional or a legal investigation.
	This is a non-trivial claim we're making tonight.
	Somebody is messing with us big time.
	So then, who do you go to?
	Well, on our website at EnterpriseMission.com, if you can get in because there's a lot of people looking tonight.
	I am sure.
	At the top we have, in fact I think I've got it here, we have a section titled, What You Can Do To Help.
	Which basically is a listing of all the email addresses of media, Congress, the White House, talk shows, political shows.
	Everybody in this country who's supposed to be out there to help you get to the truth is on that website, created for us by people like Bob Williams and several others.
	If you want to know the truth about this, you have got to make some noise.
	We sent out a press release today.
	You've got a copy of it, Art.
	You know, I'll tell you what you ought to do, Rich.
	Yeah.
	You ought to hire a private investigator, somebody familiar with high technology.
	What you're faced with is only going to be answered by getting to the real truth, and perhaps, you know, a real cyber-wise investigation agency could get to the truth here.
	Otherwise, I don't see how you're going to get there, Richard.
	How?
	Well, the last time, and again, this comes from our sources in Washington who are very interested in how this is going to play out, alright?
	This is a people's war.
	This is a democratic last stand for do the American people have a right to see what they have really paid for.
	I have a personal feeling, Art, that Banff is a hero.
	I really think I want to award him the Enterprise White Hat of the Week.
	Because despite all his protestations, beside his refusal to come on your show... Yeah, I doubt he's accepting right now.
	Well, but think of it this way.
	Suppose you have been in the system.
	Suppose you have a family.
	Suppose you have watched the chicanery, the double dealing, the duplicity, and are just fed up.
	And you're one guy in a key position to slip something exquisite out the back door to the folks that you have done your homework on, And you think may have an even shot of getting at the truth.
	If you're going to do that, Richard, why not?
	Why do it in chat rooms and by redirecting websites and all that?
	How would you get it into our hands?
	Why?
	I'd hand it to you?
	No.
	I'll call you up and say, Richard... No, because someone would find out.
	This is the way of basically playing the game.
	You know, there are a lot of people that I have encountered... Plausible deniability, Richard?
	Exactly.
	Exactly.
	In other words, you basically do things with the left hand that the right hand doesn't know you're doing.
	Dr. Christensen thinks you're over basically just making trouble at Enterprise, just stirring things up, kicking Hoagland's you-know-what.
	Yep.
	Whereas, in fact, under the cover of that, you have slipped us real data and you are praying that we will know politically and technically what to do with it.
	And furthermore, you've aced your bet.
	You have gone on in private emails to about six separate imaging people And given them private tutorials in how to work with this data.
	Nothing else makes sense.
	Enterprise is not that damn important unless there is an exquisite hidden agenda here to get us something we can finally work with.
	Now, I admit that we need further and deeper investigation.
	One of the key problems with your recommendation, Art, is we are broke.
	We cannot afford to hire a private investigator of the high-tech caliber of the people that you're talking about.
	We can barely afford computer programs and to keep the lights on.
	Yeah.
	You know, I have funded Enterprise out of my own pocket for years, putting all the monies for the monuments of Mars back in, putting any monies I got from television presentations back in, any lecture fees I put back into Enterprise.
	Yeah, I know you've done that.
	This is basically, you know, research... I don't doubt that you, uh, wholeheartedly believe in your own work Richard not for one
	second. Well not only do I believe in it but there are a lot of other people to believe in it.
	Yeah. There's a large segment of your audience that believes in it. Yeah I don't doubt that. You know your
	sincerity is real.
	Your enthusiasm perhaps is um as uh some gentleman recently said perhaps over exuberant
	at times.
	When referring to our economy, you tend to be over-exuberant.
	But I'm weighing this, Richard.
	Well, you have proposed a very reasonable idea here.
	Well, that someone wants your butt and that they're setting you up.
	Sure it is.
	Well, it's very simple.
	If people want to help us get to the bottom, give us some money so we can, in fact, afford to hire the best high-tech investigators on the internet to get to the bottom of this.
	And all you do is send us a check to Enterprise Mission at P.O.
	Box 3550 Edgewood, New Mexico 87015.
	And we can use the help.
	We are at the end of what we can do with the resources we have.
	We had major security problems at Enterprise last week.
	We had huge amounts of attacks.
	We need something like $6,000 worth of equipment just to maintain Enterprise in a secure way so we can present the data which we give to the country for free.
	We don't charge for anything, Art.
	After they would give this to you, Richard, the eternal they, why would they then Uh, bother to attack you.
	Cyber attacks of various sorts.
	Why bother?
	Oh, no, no, no.
	It's not the same people.
	In other words, if you have a leak... I mean, we've seen this in Washington for years.
	What happens in Washington when someone slips a reporter a juicy story?
	The guys that don't want the story to be published, or to be followed, try to do everything to destroy the message, the messenger, to eliminate the paper trail, to make it worthless, to cover it up.
	This, to me, looks like a rearguard desperate action.
	On the part of those that don't want you folks out there to know the truth tonight, to keep you from finding it out.
	I mean, all kinds of accusations have been made against me personally over the years.
	I told Keith as we went into this in the last couple of weeks, I said, you know, when this gets serious, when we get to where we can actually publish, I said, you're going to join a very exclusive fraternity.
	You know, people like me who get called every name in the book simply because we want to know the truth.
	And if people out there really want to help, tonight is the time to step up to the plate.
	We could really use it.
	There's a whole battery of things we could do.
	We have a legal case we want to mount.
	This weird echo, so I wanted to give Keith an opportunity to sort of round out between now and the bottom of the hour.
	Anything you want to say, Keith?
	I mean, you're in the middle of this, obviously, because the images came to you.
	And at what point did you contact Richard?
	After I processed a few of them and asked about the blocks and not gotten a satisfactory explanation,
	and did a little bit of further review into it, I decided, well, let me send this to Richard and see what he thinks
	about it.
	Had you been in communication with Richard prior to this?
	I don't know.
	No, so you never talked to Richard?
	I mean, I've been a member of Enterprise Mission Community for a long time, and I found little weird things and said, hey, look at this.
	But, you know, never really any real contact.
	Our first phone conversation was over this about, what, three weeks ago?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	That's what I wanted to establish.
	Okay.
	Keith, from your point of view, you know, we've laid out these two possible scenarios.
	It's real, it's slipped to you, and we've got the real McCoy here, and the other is, you know, set up.
	What probabilities do you give to the two possibilities?
	Well, I mean, I'm always after all the NASA people.
	Give me something.
	Slip me something out the back door.
	You know, do something.
	I mean, I will harass them and harangue them.
	Once I found out BAMF was there, yes, I harassed and harangued them, too.
	Now, you know, I know I went to the Themis website and downloaded this image.
	I've got it in my computer records that I did so.
	Yep.
	Okay, I mean, there's no doubt to me that I got this Themis image.
	I mean, and it's the same one.
	I thought it was crap.
	Whether I was redirected or what, it's no big deal, but I mean, I went to the Themis website and did choose that image and downloaded it.
	Now, the fact that I did it on the 25th, now that might have changed something, you know, being that that's their sacred day over this particular issue.
	Yeah.
	I mean I started processing these images and see there's more to it than just the one image that you see like if you go to image number one on your site.
	Yes.
	There's more to it than just those particular colors because each one of these bands can be ratioed and put in different combinations to show you compositional differences down there.
	I mean you got to remember this is a this is a multi-band image.
	Right.
	So and when I take the other bands and correlate them in the same way, in the same type of
	combinations that those bands are made out of, that those banded pictures are made out of.
	They come out with variations.
	The colors are in different places, but still in the same general pattern.
	The blocks are different on each one of the banded images, even in black and white.
	You can look at them and you can tell that the IR is picking up different, which is different for visual.
	But Keith, you're pretty tight with the people at NASA.
	I mean, you've done volunteer work for them.
	They like your work.
	They asked you to go ahead and do work.
	And so, once you had, like, image number two, with the city, why didn't, why did, you know, why can't you just go to somebody at NASA?
	I sent them some representative pictures, yes, and they were thrilled.
	They were thrilled.
	Yeah, they were like, oh, that's neat, you know.
	I mean, that's about all I get out of it because they, you know, I get the firm feeling that they want me to figure this out on my own.
	Hold on here.
	It just doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't offer up more than that's neat to an apparent city.
	Well, they're not going to say anything, Mark.
	Just like how come BAMF is on there calling me a liar?
	And he knows the conversations we had.
	You know, why would he be saying I'm a liar?
	All right.
	I don't know, and he won't come on, so... You know, to me, it's a person at a keyboard somewhere, right?
	We don't know who BAMF is.
	Hold on, everybody.
	The images, they look like this.
	Mountains high, valleys deep.
	Except for that troubling city, that urban city.
	Wow.
	I'm not going to be able to do it.
	Don't you cry.
	Don't you give a damn.
	Please don't you cry.
	Don't you rise, don't you give up yet, release your mind.
	I don't know the end, I don't see the next interview, come on down.
	I would like to finish with Keith and sort of get a definitive answer from you Keith.
	I mean, as you honestly weigh this in your own head, if you're, you know, I know you're immersed in it, it may be hard to step back from it and assign probabilities of fraud versus, you know, the real McCoy.
	How would you stack it up?
	I would think it was, I would think it was fraud if it were the other way around and I got the crappy image.
	The thing about it is, is this image is so good.
	The data is all there.
	It's so clear.
	And you can replicate the results using this image.
	Okay?
	It's not just a one-time thing.
	If I take their image, or if I take the other version of the image that I have, and run it through the same processing, I get completely separate results.
	And it's degraded, as you can see in your picture on your site.
	That's what gives it to me.
	I mean, the politics of it all, that escapes me.
	I'm just an image processor, and I looked at the data, and this is the conclusion.
	Alright, so then basically, your assessment is, it's impossible that it would be a fraud.
	Almost, from your point of view.
	Yes.
	It wouldn't be near as clean.
	They couldn't insert all those blocks into the picture.
	Not without leaving a record on the image.
	Yeah, okay.
	Art, there is a NASA mission orbiting the Earth tonight.
	I know one thing we do have in our audience, Richard, we have a lot of people who process images as a profession, right?
	Yep.
	And one of the things we wanted to do was to challenge those people who are neutral, who do not have a stake in this game, or as we used to say, a dog in this fight, to go to the web Download the duplicate of the image that Keith got, which is a TIFF file, an old TIFF file.
	It's almost 8 megs.
	The larger original, yes.
	The larger original.
	Download it.
	Go to the Envy website, the Research Systems Inc.
	out of Colorado.
	And download their software, contact them, get a license to process using the same techniques that Keith used, and let's compare results.
	We will publish on Enterprise anybody's results on this data.
	Side by side by side by side.
	And my bet is that the professionals are going to say, this is real data.
	It shows unbelievable things.
	No, no, what, no, what, no.
	What they would say is that it was processed accurately.
	Well, when you look at the noise value... They wouldn't necessarily say it's real.
	When you look at the noise value... Real is a different question.
	Processed accurately, fine, I agree with you.
	Somebody out there could get the same program, process it the same way, and end up with a result that it was processed accurately.
	It wasn't fraudulently processed.
	But that wouldn't mean the data is real.
	If it's a setup, then you were fed Uh, inaccurate data in the first place, making the end result of the processing obviously what it is.
	Exactly.
	The problem with that scenario, Art, is if you look at other NASA missions that have comparable technology, there's a, as I said, there's a mission in orbit tonight called ASTER, A-S-T-E-R, for aerospace thermal imaging.
	And if they put data on the JPL website, I have gone and downloaded some of that data to compare side-by-side with the CEMAS data.
	And the original astrodata is as good as what Keith has been working with.
	It has no noise.
	It's crisp.
	It's pristine when you decorrelate and stretch it.
	It comes out with all the right colors so you can gauge what's down there.
	It's not degraded.
	It's not crappy stuff.
	And what I'm really suspecting is that all the other things we've been seeing from the Themis camera at Mars has been equivalently degraded.
	Just so no one in the general public understands what an exquisite instrument is orbiting Mars, taking surveys that we're never supposed to see.
	Well, what a monster story, either way.
	Well, but there's a way we can get to the end of this, and I want to really, before we lose the time here, we've got 20 minutes left, I want to tell people what we can do.
	One of the things I've been urged by my Washington sources is for Americans listening tonight to this program, wondering about this debate, wondering where it's all going to come out, You can have a voice.
	You can decide how we solve this.
	And one of the ways you decide by how we solve it is to demand the rest of the infrared imaging from Themis all put out right away.
	That seems fair.
	They were supposed to publish, according to their pre-mission rules and mandates, all of the data from the first two months.
	First month, I'm sorry.
	By August 18th of this year.
	And they did not.
	They did not.
	They now have claimed, BAMF has claimed, Christian has claimed, Saunders has claimed, that they're not going to be able to publish it until October.
	My people, my sources are telling me that the reason they have delayed, this is extremely serious, flat out conversation, the reason they're delaying is they are removing the offending artifacts from these images, even as we speak.
	If we don't get them, and get them now, What do you think the odds are, just asking here, of getting somebody to officially come on from NASA and either step around these questions
	In such an obvious way that we know they're lying through their teeth, or tell you you're full of crap, or whatever it is they're going to do directly.
	I mean, it's a very serious issue.
	It's very serious.
	So why couldn't we get somebody from NASA?
	Why wouldn't that be a way to settle it?
	Put them here on the air with you, Keith, and just go.
	I'd look for it.
	A friend of mine, you know, Gary Laguerre, who has a radio show on the weekends down in Florida, He tried very hard to get Banff to agree to be on his show with me.
	Yeah, but I don't want... I don't know about Banff.
	I want an official... Well, Gorelick is the guy processing the images.
	You believe... No, Gorelick is the man.
	Yeah, you believe.
	No, I know he is the man.
	He is listed in the PDF, which is the pre-mission... As one is processing?
	As one of the guys on... Okay, but if that's Banff, that's my big...
	Jumping off point.
	You want to make a side bet, Art?
	I want to make a side bet.
	He is the guy.
	I know you have this suspicion of the internet.
	So do I. I'm the one that told you that anybody can be a dog on the internet.
	Remember that?
	Yeah, Richard, but I've got lots of hard life lessons about the internet.
	Well, so have I, but Vamp is the guy.
	He may try to hide tonight and claim that, you know, we're all having our last 15 minutes and making accusations from the dark against Keith who's simply doing his job.
	But he does not have the guts to stand up in front of 20 million people and basically say that on the air, does he?
	I don't know.
	What does that tell us?
	Let's find out.
	Well, yes, we need to... I will pursue my contacts to try to get some responsible official from the program on your program, on your air.
	There you go.
	And you will do the same thing.
	Yeah, I'll have the network pursue it.
	We'll meet same time, same station, same whatever.
	I will have the network pursue it.
	But while we are doing that, alright, while we're doing that, the people out there tonight need to know that the clock is ticking and people are erasing evidence from these pictures according to my sources in Washington.
	And they wanted me to communicate tonight, it is emphatically important, It is critically important that we demand all of the
	nighttime and daytime IR data right away.
	Not wait a week, not wait two weeks, not wait ten days, right away like we got this image.
	Once they have time to do to the original data what they have done to this infrared
	band and posted it as the official version, there's no bringing that pristine data back.
	Well, listen Keith, I really want to thank you for coming on the air.
	Oh, sure.
	I don't know what to say to you except be safe because, you know, either way this could be trouble for y'all.
	Uh, if it's a hoax, it's trouble.
	If it's, uh, the real thing, it's trouble.
	So, be safe, and thank you for coming on the air tonight.
	Sure.
	And telling us everything, alright?
	Thank you.
	Thanks, Keith.
	Bye-bye.
	Thank you.
	Uh, so, uh, there goes Keith.
	Now, um, I just want to take a couple of calls, Richard, and just, like, get a little reaction from the audience.
	That's all, alright?
	Let's try it.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	Hi, Richard.
	How are you guys doing?
	Okay, where are you, sir?
	I am in the Midwest.
	My name is Steve.
	Okay.
	Illinois.
	All right.
	I'm calling or presenting the Art Bell chatroom on Delnet.
	My screen name is Alien Intelligence.
	And we just, you know, the majority of the room, we feel this is a hoax.
	We really do.
	We've looked at all the pictures and I'm not buying it.
	And we're not buying it.
	And I want to know, and I'm just going to ask my question and get off.
	Yep.
	How, how do you, uh, Rich, I mean, is this going to damage your credibility?
	That's my question.
	Thanks a lot.
	Who cares?
	I want the truth.
	Uh, yeah, I mean, that's a legit question, Richard.
	How can asking questions, you know, if, if we had come on and not giving you the history of this image, if we come on and simply claim we've got it, Take it or leave it?
	Well, if somebody... That'd be one thing.
	Yeah, but if somebody manages to get you to swallow a hoax, they have probably damaged your credibility.
	No, no, I don't buy it.
	I do not buy it.
	The issues here are much too important.
	Remember, we're looking at a 20-year cover-up documented by people like Stan McDaniel, myself, and legions of others over the years regarding the issue of, is there or was there ever been intelligence on Mars?
	This is merely the latest turn of the page.
	We now have an exquisite instrument which can give us totally new information, which we believe we have gotten.
	But I don't think if I were you, I would have gone to air with this until, for example, I got on the telephone with one of the individuals that you're talking about and had recorded a conversation where he admitted he was so-and-so or so-and-so was BAMF or whatever.
	In other words, a level of knowledge Beyond what was fed to you on the internet.
	And what came across the internet, even as email, Richard.
	I don't think I'd have gone to air until I talked to one of these individuals.
	Did you try?
	Did we try what?
	Did you try to talk to one of these individuals in person?
	They won't talk to me!
	Don't you understand?
	I'm persona non grata with these people.
	They won't even take calls from you.
	No!
	That's why we are reduced to email.
	The modern mode of communications.
	Now, you can check, you know, whether an email was coming from Christensen's office or not.
	Well... And that, we have done.
	Yeah.
	We've exchanged.
	But I just finished telling it.
	It's the truth, Richard.
	People post messages from me on the internet, and I swear to God, headers and all, you can't tell it's not from me.
	That's, you know, that's something they can do.
	Snap in the hand, they can do it.
	I know they can do it.
	Well, they've done it with me too.
	Well, there you are.
	They've done it with me too.
	There you are.
	So...
	Well, part of this continuing process is, yes, we will attempt to establish, you know, I mean, ultimately, how do you know that somebody on the phone is a real guy?
	You don't?
	Exactly.
	So we are reduced to the absurd.
	And the bottom line is that we have a potential real discovery here that needs resources to follow up, to follow through.
	And I have people telling me, who I have known for half a decade, Who I have met, and sat in the same room with, and exchanged lots of information, who are connected to the previous Reagan administration, and now to this administration, who are telling me, this is real data, and proceed!
	And I do trust them.
	Alright, well I would like to offer any of the individuals mentioned, a number one, airtime, to come on the air, with or without Richard Hoagland being present.
	To air their side of this story.
	I think it would be worthy.
	There are many who would not come on with you, Richard.
	I know that.
	But to get to it, I would be willing to have them on without your presence.
	You've been on tonight without theirs, though you have asked for it.
	I'd be willing to have them on either way and try and get to the bottom of this.
	I don't see any other way to pursue it.
	Well, the problem is, since the official project is not publishing any data around any of its images, no ancillary data, no spacecraft look angles, no sun emission, no date, no time, no orbit, I mean, it's a very uneven playing field here.
	You know, it's the old, we're NASA and you're not.
	And the only way to write that is for people to go to the website And download all those emails we put up there of all the major players politically and media-wise in the United States of America tonight.
	Oh, there'll be plenty of people who are going to do that, Richard.
	They're screaming up there, I'm sure.
	Absolutely.
	And we know that's how we got this image in the first place.
	When you were on vacation and I was on with George, we did a program before the 24th of July where we basically demanded people go and demand that image.
	And lo and behold, within a week or so, we got the image.
	And we got nine bands to work with.
	They didn't just put us out one image, you know, just one black and white, like they've done for most other places on Mars with the infrared.
	Right.
	They gave us nine bands to work with.
	Then, folks from ASU show up at Enterprise and tutor our people in how to work with infrared imaging.
	It does not take a rocket scientist to say that somebody wanted us to work with this image to find out what was on it.
	And they're simply sticking with plausible desirability, no fingerprints.
	I would agree, Richard.
	That's a 50% possibility.
	I happen to know, though, and I won't name them, but you know that I know people who hate you enough.
	Sure.
	Sure.
	With probably the knowledge... Mark, go back to the underlying thing.
	They hate you because of your criticism over the years of NASA.
	Straight out.
	They hate me because NASA has been hiding things and we are on the trail of figuring it out.
	Well, one of those two.
	One of those two, Richard.
	But you know that I know these people who hate you to that degree, who would and probably do have the ability To hope something of this magnitude.
	And if that has happened, we will figure that out too, will we not?
	Now, the important thing, again, to leave this audience with is that we have a way of testing the ultimate truth of everything that's been said tonight.
	And that is, we demand the rest of the data.
	We don't let them vacuum off the interesting things.
	And let me tell you one astonishing potential in this data.
	You asked me at the top of the show why we were seeing these things so clearly, even through so much dust and ice.
	Yes.
	I discussed that with Ron two days ago.
	And as we were working through the physics of this, I said, you know, Ron, I'm reaching a tentative conclusion that I think is going to knock your socks off, so you better sit down.
	And he says, OK.
	I said, the only way I can see realistically for this to be what we're seeing in the daytime If it's not just being warm by the sun, but if it's intrinsically warm in and of itself.
	In other words, these things are warm under there.
	They have power flowing to them.
	The lights are still on.
	Well, there's a wild one.
	Think of the next step.
	That could account for it.
	Think of the next step, because my bush guy says, You've got to get the nighttime infrared.
	If you do, it's game over.
	So I said to him two days ago, I said, have you been trying to tell me that this stuff still has power to it, that it's warm?
	Because any power ultimately degrades to heat, right?
	If I have a light bulb, a computer, anything, it degrades to heat.
	So if I take an infrared thermal image, I will get heat.
	Particularly on Mars where it's damn cold.
	So you're saying you might be seeing a living... No, I'm saying the lights are on but nobody's home.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Because the technology that we have projected for this level of civilization... Yes.
	Hyperdimensional physics allows a technology that's just like the Energizer bunny, keeps going and going and going.
	And here is the capper.
	If we get a nighttime infrared image of Cydonia, if I'm right, Then it should look like Los Angeles down there in the dark.
	It should be glowing like neon signs up and down Hollywood and Vine.
	So, Mr. and Mr. American, you have got to help us get this data and get it now.
	And the email list, and the fax numbers, and the phone numbers, and all those talk shows, and all those politicos, and the White House, and the Congress, and everyone who can be interested in the outcome is on our website tonight.
	Just go to EnterpriseMission.com, go down to the slug that says, How You Can Help, and you'll find tons of ways that you can meaningfully help.
	Todd, this is so fascinating, Richard.
	Either way, absolutely fascinating.
	I'll give you that.
	No, my friend, I'm glad that you are vouching for my integrity.
	That means a lot.
	Yeah, of course.
	I mean, over the years, I know you are fanatically, truly devoted to your work.
	I mean, there's absolutely no question about that.
	Whether you've been had or not, that's a big question right now.
	Listen, buddy, I gotta go.
	We've laid it out for everybody and, you know, I'd like my audience to think for themselves and do for themselves.
	So go get programmed, compare, do whatever you want, check into it.
	Help Richard.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Richard, good night.
	Good night, my friend.
	Night, everybody.
	It's all up to you now.
	This is Coast to Coast AM in the nighttime.

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