Richard C. Hoagland presents 99.999999% confidence in NASA’s THEMIS infrared data revealing buried Martian ruins—like a five-sided pyramid and grid structures—beneath Sidonia’s dust, comparable to Earth’s Grand Canyon. Obtained via ASU’s Mars Computation Center manager Noel Gorelik (aka "BAMF"), the images allegedly show artificial subsurface formations, with Hoagland claiming NASA degraded them by adding "noise" while preserving traces. He ties this to a 1961 Brookings report on extraterrestrial contact suppression and suggests Martian civilizations, buried ~300,000–500,000 years ago, may have influenced Earth’s history through hidden technology like hyperdimensional physics. Hoagland demands full data release, accusing NASA of a 20-year cover-up to avoid societal upheaval, urging listeners to process raw images independently at EnterpriseMission.com. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all.
Good evening, good morning, good afternoon, whatever time zone you may be residing in at the moment.
I'm Marbell, Miss Coast Coast AM.
Live talk radio throughout the night on this night's program, this morning's program, whatever, is so important.
And there's so much information to get to you that we are going to begin in the first hour with it.
It is, of course, Richard C. Hoagland, who is a former Museum Space Science Curator, a former NASA consultant, and during the historic Apollo missions to the moon was science advisor to Walter Cronkite in CBS News.
For the past 19 years, Richard has been leading an outside scientific team in a critically acclaimed independent analysis of possible, listen very closely, possible intelligently designed artifacts on NASA and other data sets, beginning with the unmanned NASA Viking mission to Mars back in 1976 and its provocative images of a region called Sidonia.
And of course, the face.
In 1993, Hoagland was awarded the International Angstrom Medal for Excellence in Science by the Angstrom Foundation in Stockholm, Sweden for that continuing research.
The past four years, he and his team's investigations have been quietly extended to include over 30 years of previously hidden data from NASA, Soviet, and Pentagon missions to the moon with startling results.
And startling is certainly the word that would be appropriate for what he's going to say tonight.
It lies directly ahead.
Well, this is going to be one of the perhaps most startling programs we've ever done with some pretty serious information in it about Mars.
And I'm not sure how else to begin other than to say that's the reason we're starting in the first hour because of the gravity of the show.
Here from the mountains of New Mexico is Richard C. Hogund.
In other words, first, before we even begin down the trail of how you got to where you are, what is the bottom line?
Are you saying that there are architectural designs, there is some sort of irrefutable proof of cities, I don't know if that's the right word, cities, urban-type development, kind of like what they're talking about off the coast of Cuba, on Mars, and that you've uncovered this information with the new IR color data.
And in fact, it's very eerie you should bring up the Cuba ruins because we have found these roughly at the same depth under Sidonia that the Cuban ruins were found by Paulina Zelitsky off Cuba.
It's five pages with background, but obviously the important stuff is in the first two or three paragraphs.
We have been working on this ever since this audience, your audience, while you were on vacation, working very hard with the leadership of George and that chair.
He was able to get enough people to email and fax NASA and the folks at the ASU, Arizona State University, the project leadership of the Mars Odyssey mission, which is currently orbiting Mars tonight, to basically get kicked loose a daytime color infrared image of Sidonia.
After months and months and months and months and months of foot dragging and excuses and, oh, the dog ate it and, oh, it's not processed, and it's not calibrated, and it's on my dining room table, but I forgot to bring it in.
I mean, everything possible, this audience, these people out there listening to us tonight art, stepped up to the plate one more time with feeling and did what good Americans do in the clinch.
They made their voices heard and they got something.
Now, for a lot of this, initially in the first few hours after we saw it posted on the website at ASU on July 24th of this year, which was a little over a month ago, we thought we'd been had once again.
Well, because what we had demanded, what we'd asked for, was the nighttime infrared image of Sidonia.
My sources, and we'll get into this much later in the evening, much more heavily later in the evening, in Washington have told me unequivocally that what we really want to see, if after tonight you think you've seen anything on the daytime images, wait till you see the nighttime, because that's where the payoff is.
That's where the big prize that I've been looking for now for 20-some years, namely the unequivocal proof of the ruins of an extraterrestrial civilization on Mars, apparently lie.
All right, but to what degree of certainty with regard to the photographs you've got now, the daytime color IR photographs, to what degree of certainty can you sit here tonight and declare you have found architectural ruins on Mars?
And there are a whole bunch of reasons that we're going to go through.
All the tests we've done, all the cross-checking, all the various inter-scene viewings we've done, all of this comes up that we're looking at real data, and what's really there is there.
Because what makes this so extraordinary, Art, is this data did not come to us directly.
It was filtered through a trusted colleague who has been working for a year or two with the NASA Ames MarsWeb program doing image processing for them as part of this worldwide virtual Mars network that they've set up for investigators to plug into NASA data anywhere in the world.
And as part of that system, he has established a lot of contacts with the NASA Ames people, with people at Washington, other NASA centers, with Dr. Mailin and his group.
And it was to him that this image actually was lovingly and cherishedly bequeathed, not to us.
And we believe that this was part of someone's plan to give the data, the pristine, stunning, real, seamless infrared data of Sidonia, not to Hoagland and company, who instantly would be accused of making everything up because, of course, we want it to be real, but to someone that was one of their own, someone that it would be a little harder to accuse of fabrication, of fraud, of hoax, et cetera, et cetera, as the spin doctors will go to work, and you know they will.
They are not forthcoming at all about even the heritage of the images that they have published.
There's no ancillary data for any of the images up on the Odyssey website tonight.
There's no sun angles.
There's no orbit numbers.
There's no even day when they take the pictures.
The pictures that are up there are the day they are released.
They could be, you know, again, like Dr. Mailin used to do, keep them in a drawer for months before they put them up.
I am, you know, to answer your question, Art, I am extraordinarily confident because of the way this image was acquired, and we're going to go into that in exclusive detail, the processing steps that were applied to it, we're going to go into that in great detail, and the character and integrity of the individual who got it, namely Keith Laney, and we'll go into that in detail.
He lives in Charlotte, North Carolina, not far from where my old homestead used to be.
He is an independent contractor.
He does image processing.
He's been a member of the anomalous community, meaning he's looked at moon data and Mars data and whatever for years and years and years.
And as I said, in the last year or so, he was accepted by the NASA program at NASA AIMS to work on data for them in preparation for the unmanned rover landings on Mars in 2004.
He's seriously trusted by NASA, and I can announce tonight that he went to his bosses there and asked them if they would be interested in publishing the data you're publishing tonight ourselves.
Right, so for those who don't understand, how you might see an object beneath the surface of Mars would be a delta, a difference between the heat on the surface and the heat beneath the surface.
Exactly.
That's what it's looking at, and that's how it's developing what you are seeing.
And I think tonight, as we go through this, you're going to find that if Mars were not the place it is and have the unique history it has, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation because I don't think even the NASA people, even the FEMIS team understands, fully understands,
although there is some indication from an abstract that the principal investigator of the FEMAS camera, Dr. Christensen, published this afternoon in Washington prior to the October DPS meeting, which is a major scientific meeting, Division of Planetary Sciences that is held every year.
He said that on other data taken by this camera since February, they've been in operation orbiting Mars, taking these kinds of infrared images since February of this year, February 18th, they have now found evidence of subterranean, sub-Marsian, sub-Aryan valley networks of rivers that are not visible on either the Viking image or the Mars Global Surveyor.
According to, and this is going to really blow people's minds, according to an independent instrument on another spacecraft that everybody except us has forgotten, the laser, the laser pinger, the device that is actually doing profile, or was up until the instrument broke a few months ago, doing profiling around Mars.
And the pinger, the laser used to do the profiles, is 10.6 microns.
The images that we're looking at range from 6.62 to 12.58.
So the laser is in the infrared, the thermal infrared, in the middle of the precise waveband we're looking at with these pictures.
And so what we're seeing with the laser, in terms of bottom profiling, is apparently going down through an enormous amount of extraordinarily dry and finely divided dust.
Well, the first model, when we were looking at this, and we'll go into how we tripped over all this, we thought we were looking at structures that were basically sitting underneath the poof dirt, the dust, which is incredible.
I mean, this is finer than talcum powder.
This stuff is pulverized, pulverized, and no one, I think, even the NASA people, have appreciated how it will drift and sit and stay in deep valleys and canyons.
This is why Dr. Hitchenson is seeing these ancient river networks.
So the more we looked at this, and if you look in detail at the images and you match them with the MOLA profiles, we have a shallow area north of the face on Mars.
Remember, this is the region of the infamous face.
The shallow region is only a few hundred feet below the surface.
The region below the face to the south of it across that basin is down to 3,000 feet arc below the surface that we see.
I have always been suspicious there was life on Mars.
Billions of years ago, I have no problem grasping the concept that there may well have been life on Mars.
Mars, we know, was a very different place.
It had an atmosphere, it had moisture, it had water, it had all the ingredients that you'd need for life before something happened to Mars, and that's another argument and another program probably, but it certainly had the setup for life.
No question about it.
So could there have been an entire civilization then covered up in the manner being described tonight?
Should there not be cities found?
Actually, I've got a couple of questions, Richard.
Shouldn't there be cities found not just here at Sidonia, but perhaps in many regions of Mars?
I had a long discussion this afternoon with Ron Nix, who, as you know, is one of our geologists, and is preparing a paper, a technical paper on this we'll publish later in the week or maybe early next week.
Every time we give an estimate as to how long it's going to take us to do something on this, it's just so extraordinary and we have to check so many things.
You just go up to the website, artbell.com, go to program, go to tonight's guest info when you get there, under the name Richard C. Hohland, which will be immediately apparent.
You'll see images, second link down, second link down, images, one, two, three, four, five, six.
What is striking and what Ron and I were discussing is if you go look up the strip, and I don't know how big on your screen, can you, is it fairly big on your screen?
In other words, if you are looking at a scene through a window which is illuminated at a side angle and the window is scattering light, then you look through, the best definition would be you're looking through a windshield driving west toward the afternoon sun, the setting sun.
I do understand that, but even as I look at this, help me and everybody else who's looking at this right now to differentiate between the irregular, irregular nature of rocks and geopolitical.
The face is the strange, multicolored thing with the glowing orange eye on the left, the bright hood-like thing on the right, the blue shadow on the lower right.
Well, why would a canyon-like geologic setup on Mars where it hasn't rained in God knows how long and it's supposed to be wind scoured, why wouldn't it be smooth as a baby's you-know-what?
Why would it have stair-step profiles?
Why would it have in the this image, in the, I'm not visible, but in the themis image, go back to strip number one, if you now match the strip, other words, what you need to do is reorient yourself just a little bit.
But Richard, if you consider the Grand Canyon, good example, right?
Or maybe the T-Town.
Now, Grand Canyon's better.
Go ahead and consider the Grand Canyon.
If Earth had a catastrophic event and the Grand Canyon were to fill up with dust blowing from wind, which is, you know, after some, I don't know, after something hits a planet or something awful catastrophic happens, why couldn't I imagine the Grand Canyon filling with dust?
Eight colors would be another way of looking at it.
And as Kiesel explained, the way you have to work with this multispectral data, because it isn't black and white, it isn't visual imagery, is very different than we usually use with black and white images.
He learned a phenomenal amount and actually got very cozy with a very big company called Kodak and a division of theirs called Research Systems Inc.
that provided him an enterprise for an indefinite period what I have been laughingly calling the Lexus of Imaging Programs.
It's a program called NV3.5, which is about a $7,000 computer program.
And it's this state-of-the-art program which allows you to basically do all this with point-and-click and tutorials.
And I mean, it's basically applying a 747 as if you've never flown one before, but you're a grand master at it.
And it was this software and their tutorials and Keith's very bright learning curve that allowed him to come up the curve and to produce the day that we were talking about tonight.
And Ron and I actually went through some calculations the other night, you know, comparing things we built that are big, like Mount Rushbourne and all that.
This was my key indicator, because if this pattern, if as you said a moment ago, if some wacky grad student at ASU had basically pulled a huge hoax on us here and stuck an aerial photograph of LA over a themis image, it wouldn't know to respect the objects that are above the dust that we've been looking at for the last 20 years.
Yeah, your reaction when I heard you a few minutes ago, I was like, yes, this is exactly how I felt when I first processed this image, and it popped out on me when I opened it.
Let's see, I didn't even download the image that night.
When I first saw it, I looked at it, you know, I didn't even want to look at it any further.
But the next day, I thought, well, you know, I might be a little harsh.
You know, I might have been a little harsh about that.
And so I went back to the site, looked at it again.
It was still terrible.
But I downloaded it and stored it away, forgot about it, you know.
And then I'm getting on the bulletin board the next couple days, and the reaction to me saying that, and, you know, and Richard echoing it on your show, obviously brought the hornets out of the woodwork.
And they came out on the bulletin board saying that this image shows nothing about Sidonia as particular.
And, you know, we were looking at this terrible image, and I had to react.
What in the world are you talking about?
How do you know this?
You know, we haven't even done anything to the images yet.
And basically, it just challenged me to go back.
It kept goading me, goading me until finally I started processing some of these because, I mean, gosh, I've been doing this for a long time, and there's nothing that I can't learn about doing it.
In fact, it's the most important part, I think, of this entire mystery.
About a month before this image was released, a gentleman showed up at the Enterprise Electronic Conference called BAMP, B-A-M-F, which is obviously a screen name, a pseudonym.
And he began posting.
In fact, he posted some peculiar threads, one of which was called, Where's the Science Happen Around Here?
Very provocative, very in your face.
He turns out to be none other than a gentleman named Noel Gorilik, who is the manager of the famous ASU Mars Computation Center, which literally is working with Dr. Christensen as part of the team with 14 programmers under him.
And the ISP's check and where he logs on and all this.
So, no, this is the guy.
He started hanging out at Enterprise a month before this image came to light, before it was released.
And he stayed and stayed and stayed.
And he sent all kinds of private emails.
He's posted all kinds of material on the website.
He's engaged in long, complicated chats with various people.
And he picked out certain people like Keith and a gentleman in Germany called Holger Eisenberg and a couple of others to begin giving kind of private tutorials in how to work with infrared multispectral data.
Okay, so I'm sitting here and I'm processing these images, and it's, of course, you have to ratio the bands together, and then you have to combine them in red, green, and blue.
So I'm sitting here, and I do my first image, and I'm going, wow, these blocks all pop out at me, and I'm seeing this city pattern.
And you know, the funny thing about the city pattern, where the stuff sticks up, I mean, where there's no dust over it, you can see several of the areas on the picture.
Where there's no dust, there's no blocks.
But where the dust is piled up, you see the blocks.
Where there's no dust, you actually see the structure up above the surface.
What you're saying is a very serious charge, really.
unidentified
Yeah, well, I mean, actually, if they thought they were noise, if they thought they were noised, they would honestly be trying to find something to filter them off.
It's Mailin's camera, the Mars Orbital Camera on Mars Global Surveyor, M-O-Mock.
That's the imagery, white, white, black-and-white imaging that Keith has been working on for the MarsWIP program at NASA Ames for about a year.
So Noel Gorlick, the chief programmer of the computers working on the Odyssey imaging in Chat at Enterprise is kind of sneakily saying, hey, buddy, how do you get rid of the noise on those other images?
You know, I'm not that great with the raw strip photography.
However, I can see how the strip photography, like in image one, relates to what we see in image two.
I think when you get to image two, and to get to that, you go to my website at artbell.com, click on program tonight's guest info, and you'll see images one through seven.
Now, image number two, I'm looking at a city.
This is not ambiguous.
There's no way in hell if this is a real image.
There's no way in hell this is any natural formation.
And I'm certain that anybody out there would agree with me.
If the image is legitimate, if what we're seeing is real, then this is artificial.
And this is proof of artificial structures on Mars.
Perhaps better photographic proof than we have of what is said to lay beneath the city off the coast of Cuba.
Quite some bit better, as a matter of fact.
This is startling.
It jumps out at you.
You don't have to dig in to look for it.
It does, as Richard and Keith have suggested, if you look at the geography from that which is above ground, it is coexistent with and contiguous with the rest of the image geographically.
You can see.
If somebody were to try and fake something like this, I just don't know how they could do it.
If they slipped an image to Keith and Richard that was fake, they did a damn good job of it because it looks truly authentic.
And if it is authentic, then we are looking at a city on Mars.
I'm willing to say that much.
In image number two, I don't think anybody out there could sit and say that this would be any sort of noise.
Now, they might say that.
We'll ask about that.
Could this be some sort of pixelated noise that we're looking at?
There's a good question.
We'll ask in a moment.
Let's do exactly that right now.
Let's ask both Richard C. Hoagland and Keith Laney, who's been doing photographic analysis for NASA for about a year now, why, the one thing I guess I would ask myself is what is at contention here, and that is, how are we not to know that this is not some sort of pixelated noise that we're looking at?
Even as artificial as it would appear to be, after all, a camera is an artificial mechanism, and it will at times produce artificial artifacts.
Noel, if you're really out there and that really is you, then go ahead, give us a phone number, and at least make your case and tell us what's wrong with what we're looking at.
Because to me, if it's legitimate, I mean, what is he saying?
I think that's one way to get to the bottom of this.
We have tried, by the way, we've sent emails to Dr. Christensen several times this week asking questions about this data, and we will get to some of those details in a moment.
But Dr. Christensen, when we provided him with side-by-side copies of Keith's processing of the, quote, real image that was slipped to him, and the data which is sitting on the FAMIS website tonight, he has not answered us in 48 hours.
So in other words, the data that would supposedly correlate and be the exact same data as we have right here is on the website tonight is not the same.
And what we have done is we have emailed Dr. Christensen, who pays Mr. Gorilik's salary.
He has admitted that Noel Gorilik is the person he claims to be, that he's been in the enterprise chat room and has only raised certain questions about our handling of the data.
So to me, there's no doubt that Vanth Gorilik is the guy who's processing these images, is the guy who guided, who Vanfed Keith to getting this image, and for some reason he won't admit it.
Now, why wouldn't he admit it?
This gets really intriguing, folks.
And there is no end to the mysteries here or the implications of the mysteries.
Back to image number three.
If you look at the image art, on the right is the pristine version that Keith got and worked with.
The image on the left, at least we think it's the image you're going to find, is the image on the NASA themis website tonight.
If you look at them side by side, you'll see that the image on the right is crystal clear, has stunning multispectral colors, has all kinds of subtle shadings, and of course the black-white features that we think are the city underneath the dust.
The image on the left is noisy, streaky, faded, full of stuff you can't even analyze.
And if you go to image number four, Keith was actually solicited, if I heard him correctly, to look for ways to make it more like the image on the left.
You're telling me he downloaded this at perhaps not on the same website, but redirected to some other website by, you believe, BAMS.
Look at the absolutely non-geological character of this five-sided massive pyramid that I've said for the last 20 years seems to be a huge building on the planet Mars.
But it's obvious that what's happened to the image on the left is that somebody has dropped 15 carloads of noise on top of it and done a few other things.
unidentified
Yeah, they tried to take the blocks off.
That's exactly what they did.
It's a visual, I don't know how they did it.
I think they laid a visual overlay image of the area over top of the IR data in the raw state.
There are two other images they've released of other regions of Mars.
They don't look anything like this.
There are no blockies.
There's no noise.
They're just kind of average multispectral images of another planet.
And Banff, aka Noel Gorlick, admitted in his conversations with Laney that there was these peculiar blocks that they couldn't figure out how to get rid of on this image.
Now, there is some question about who the Smythe character is.
He also showed up very knowledgeable in infrared multispectral processing, but he claims not to be the Dan Smythe who was a leader in the field at MIT.
But won't you think that, you know, I mean, if this is a hoax, it is the most extraordinary, elaborate, technically sophisticated The headers on the images are different.
unidentified
I myself have three different versions of this image.
I've got the official one from the Themis website that's up now.
I have the official one from the Themis website that I downloaded on the 25th.
When this whole thing came down, when we finally realized after the show I did with George that we were going to pressure them to release an IR image of Sidonia finally, Dr. Saunders, who was the official project scientist, admitted in an email spread around the world on the internet that the image was going to be released within a few days.
This was on a Sunday.
My guys and I got together and I looked at the calendar and I said, oh my God, I'll bet they're going to release it on the 25th of July.
So I sent some emails to some people who were on the Enterprise Conference and I said, I'm betting on the 25th.
I said to Mike Barra, I'm betting on the 25th.
So on the 24th, when they put the image out, needless to say, I was a tad disappointed because the ritual had been broken.
Except Keith was maneuvered, manipulated, goaded, whatever you want to call it, into downloading his image on the night of the 25th from that website, and it was the stunning real image.
And it looks as if the ritual was confirmed.
Now, let me get to the real part of the story.
As Keith is preparing these images for the processing, what you got to do is you have to tilt them vertical, slice them out of their background on the FEMAS website, and put them basically by themselves.
You can layer them one over the other, over the other, and do the mathematics in the MV program.
He had to align them so that they measure so many pixels wide to so many pixels long.
Tell art and the nation how many pixels wide and long these images prepared over four days by Mr. Gorlick are.
unidentified
Okay, when you average the distance of the little jagged edges on the picture and rotate it vertical, it comes out to be 333 by 1947 pixels.
How about that?
And you have to rotate the image by the magic number of 727 and a little over that.
Okay, you've got to rotate the image seven degrees to get it.
Here's the other problem I have, Richard, and that is when you lay these images side by side, the ones Keith have supplied, the high detail, and the ones that are on the site, you can, in fact, see hints that they're exactly the same thing in different details.
Yeah, that much I can go along with.
unidentified
Well, the bad thing about that is that, and this has fooled a lot of people, is that they look at the image as presently displayed and they look at my original raw image and they go, well, Keith, your image looks like crap.
And I'm like, well, that's what I thought.
You know, I mean, that's what I thought.
Until I really processed the image, I thought it was a hunk load of crap, and it did not look like the present image.
All right, if this DAMF, whoever he is, wants to supply a phone number, now would be the time to do it.
And if you don't, then we'll presume you don't want to defend yourself, nor do you wish the truth to get out beyond the limits of somebody's chat room somewhere.
unidentified
Crying on the corner, waiting in the rain That's where I'll never ever wait again You gave me a word, a word for you all I Darling in my wildest dreams I never thought I'd go Oh, oh, oh, oh.
But what flipped it for me was the set of the Russian pictures that you got hold of that confirmed this, to me, what could be nothing other than a city.
And by the way, Richard, since you did that, there are a number of other websites, which I won't name here, which all of a sudden have sprung up.
And they have found other city-like artifacts on Mars at different locations, you know, using the same strip of photography that comes from NASA.
So everybody knows, you go to artbell.com, then you click on program, tonight's guest info, Richard C. Hoagland's name, and here we are, related images number one through 14.
And at the bottom, you'll see the NSAP with the close-up and then the comparison to the Reims Cathedral.
And it's the same perspective.
You're looking straight down.
In the Reims shot, you're looking down from a few thousand feet.
It's an aerial photograph taken in Germany somewhere, in France, sometime during the, I think, last World War.
And the one at Sidonia was a composite of an image taken or released, you should say, by NASA on the 24th, 25th of July, and then composited with a visual image that we now know was taken March 8th.
And when you put the visual image, which over the infrared image, what you in essence do is amplify the signal and suppress or average the noise, and you get that result.
And you couldn't get that result unless there was something down there.
This is what is just so mind-boggling, even to me.
Our alignment data, the geometry that I've been talking about for years, if you stand in the center of the pyramid complex, which is off the frame to the left there, and you look across the face to that linear feature on the other side called the cliff, there's a solstice alignment.
We're going to talk a bit about the solstices later up tonight.
And that alignment says that that thing, whatever was done there, was done in the order of half a million to 300,000 years ago.
was not yesterday.
And, you know, when I initially proposed that, No, no, no, not order of magnitude.
Now, the reason that celestial mechanics marker is important is because it's about the only thing that you can absolutely count on about any of this.
You know, astronomy is pretty simple.
Orbital mechanics is really well known.
Newton's laws of gravity and Kepler's laws of motion.
So we're able to track back the history of the planets and how they tilt, wobble, and all that.
Or actually, JPL and NASA has done this.
And using their calculations is when, you know, with a little geometry, as I published in the Monuments of Mars, my book, covering all of this investigation for the last 20-some years, we came out with an order of magnitude estimate of a half a million years.
Now, here on Earth, a half a million years ago, there wasn't much going on.
The most advanced guys that we conceive of in the geological record, the fossils that they dig up every now and then, was a primitive, you know, slope-browed guy, gal called Homo erectus.
But what is really fascinating is on the order of 200 to 250,000 years ago, there was this remarkable leap forward on Earth.
And even the mainstream anthropologists have discovered this from looking at the taxonomy of the fossils.
But what's really fascinating is that there's a whole other group of scientists, the biologists, actually the chemists slash biologists, who've been looking at DNA samples from terrestrial races, various groupings around the Earth.
And they came out, a guy named Wilson at the University of California in Berkeley came out in the 1980s with an estimate that all of humankind, all of our lineage, went back to a tiny group of individuals, probably somewhere in Africa, on the order of 200 to 50,000 years ago.
So you kind of put these dates all together, and what it says to me is that something extraordinary happened in our own history, and that something may be connected to the simultaneity of the something extraordinary that we're seeing in these pictures from Mars.
It's entirely possible, you know, that civilizations don't last very long anyway, any of them.
That eventually they all get hit by something and what you see here on these photographs, if it's real, if these really are cities, then that's what happens.
If this catastrophic event occurred at minimum, say, 300,000 years ago, how were they able to get anybody off planet and to Earth, which is what you've been talking around for a while now, 50,000 years later?
Nevertheless, a good photograph, and the similarity between the two is so startling and so remarkable that if you aren't along for this ride, then you're not watching.
Now, I mean, we've had incredible reaction to the show that we did when we debuted all this stuff back in, what was it, September?
Right.
And a lot of it has been negative.
I mean, everything the kitchen sink has been thrown at us from accusing us of hoaxing the images, to accusing Keith Laney of hoaxing the images or being a damn fool and doing it by mistake and, you know, creating something wondrous and extraordinary, to accusing NASA or some other agency of hoaxing the image and trying to basically put it out to discredit us, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But the bottom line is none of the naysayers have been able to come up with a foolproof method of duplicating what we've got.
And when you can take two totally disparate data sets, meaning the infrared data and the visual data, taken at different times and superimpose them and come up with buildings.
I mean, look at that close-up of that thing at the bottom.
That's a damn building.
With perspective and I mean, when I first created this, you know, in the image program that we were working with back in, I think it was August, I could not believe myself what I was seeing.
It was just too extraordinary after all these years to have this kind of independent evidence.
And then, of course, the question is, well, if it isn't hoaxed, if we weren't slip something to basically be a ringer, to do us in credibility-wise, where did it come from?
And what we're going to track through tonight is we think we have now figured out where this image came from and what it really represents as a portette to getting a lot more.
Anyway, that's kind of prologue.
So let's now go back to image number two, if you want.
So what I've started, and we were going to publish this on the Enterprise site probably tomorrow evening, and we hope to have it ready by tonight.
And there was just too much science to do, too many calculations and diagrams and all that.
We're going to publish in written form the story we're going to go through this evening as to why this image is both real and not real at the same time.
Well, until we go through some of the data, I can't answer that, because you're not gonna understand it or believe it until we get to the MacGuffin, as Edward Hitchcock used to say, to see what's on the image,'cause there's some really cool stuff on this image, even though it has been.
On the right-hand image, there's almost what looks like a hole, but with the fact that it's an infrared night shot, and I know that the heat signature shows up as brighter.
Lighting your head and then on your feet was another crazy day You're crazy not away, you don't care about everything This city destination is so cold.
You've got so many people, but you've got no soul.
Anything wrong.
Why not you're wrong when you started held everything?
You used to think that it's so easy.
You used to think that it's a soul easy.
Cause you're trying.
You're trying now.
And how the earth made me feel happy.
If one more year will make you feel happy, you're crying.
You're crying now.
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
To reach Art on the Toll-Free International line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Die.
You know, no matter what you believe about all of this, if you'll just take a moment, go to your computer, go to artbell.com, program tonight's guest info, and look at picture number one, look beneath Richard Hoagland's name.
Picture number one is actually several photographs.
The two most important in my mind, the top two.
On the left, a very nice, clear photograph of downtown Cairo, Egypt from the air.
And then on the right, a photograph taken by the spacecraft, the IR photograph, of what apparently sits beneath the sand on Mars.
Now, how could anybody, anybody deny that what we're looking at is a city?
So that means 250,000 or 300,000 or 500,000 years ago, there was a city on Mars.
It was above ground.
It was bustling.
It was full of people.
And that may have been all over the planet.
Not just at Sidonia, but it may have been all over the planet.
Very likely was.
And then, and then something terrible happened.
All right.
Hopefully there's a fairly reasonably quick way to get through this.
The Russians, Richard says, lied, not the Russians, I'm sorry, NASA, about when this photograph was released.
I mean, isn't it astonishing that you'd make a slip like that because that's what you would think?
And, you know, I mean, what's wrong when our own agency is the agency we find, and again, I want to specify we're not talking the entire agency, we're talking about a group of individuals within it that are able to control the policy, the dialogue, and that everybody else kind of either doesn't know what's going on or they just do it.
Now, you've got to remember, Richard, we got a lot of people in trucks out there.
We've got a lot of people who are not with computers right now, and I'm happy to go to image number four, but everybody's not going to be able to do that.
Be careful before you leap off this Martian cliff.
So what we have here is unequivocal proof.
If you go back and look at the double image, the first one or the second one that we had up, at the top you'll see there is more stuff there, and there's no way that's just image processing.
It's another image.
So that being the case, then the question you have to ask yourself is, well, where does it come from?
Without building the foundation, as the lawyers love to say, you know, I can't give you a simple answer because there is no simple answer.
I mean, the simplest answer is they're trying to delay the inevitable, which is the admission by this agency and this government that the human race is not and has not been alone.
That there is stuff in the other parts of the solar system.
And for God's sake, maybe we're part of the stuff.
Maybe it's part of our own history, which would be an incredible incendiary bomb in the heart of the body politics.
Remember, this official report that we found many years ago, which was published in 1961, commissioned in 1959, which basically said, to paraphrase, oh, who's that actor?
Basically, it was a big study to find out what the institutions, the religious institutions, what America would think if contact was suddenly revealed.
The doctor actually was looking at the out years and the impact of the space program on all facets of our society.
And one of them would be if And one of them would be if of them was extraterrestrial contact with either real beings, with real ruins, or with radio signals.
I mean, I worked with Margaret Mead at the American Museum of Natural History at the Hayden Planetarium in New York.
We had some wonderful, spirited conversations before she passed from this mortal coil.
And her biggest fear was that if we were confronted with implacable evidence of an advanced extraterrestrial society, even in the form of ruins nearby with libraries that we could read someday,
that as a scientist, it would so impugn the concept of progress in the Western tradition, that tomorrow we'll learn more than we know today, and the day after tomorrow we'll know more, because suddenly it would lay out, you know, a million years of science and history and experience that we have not had yet.
And that a lot of folks would just say, oh, shucks, and give up.
I'm curious, Richard, if you had the opportunity to be excavating one of these cities that we see on Mars, and you got in and you found a library, and the writing on the walls and the pillars and inside in the books or whatever it is they had that passed for books, all looked vaguely Egyptian to you.
In fact, there's a hell of a good series called Stargate, which I've been following religiously ever since I realized that they were trying to tell us some very interesting stuff.
Just kind of watch that series.
And Sci-Fi is reprising the entire three or four years of it now on Sci-Fi on Monday evenings.
Isn't that astonishing as part of the Bilberg series taken?
Or as part of what's going on around it?
They sponsored a press conference at the National Press Club the other day, and one of their key people was none other than John Podesta, who was the former chief of staff in the Clinton White House.
The events of a couple days ago, the national election, where basically they cleaned the table, have freed up a lot of energy now to move forward on the disclosure front.
And he said that in the next few months, we should see some pretty remarkable things.
And if we do not, then there should be help pay on the part of people demanding that they finally get off the nonsense of hiding stuff, losing it in a drawer, letting it fall behind the couch, having the dog eat it, et cetera, et cetera.
When you consider revelations of the past, a lot of times your thinking would be it'll be a Democrat administration that will release this kind of shocking news or that would be likely to release this kind of news versus a conservative one.
But the fact of the matter is, most times with surprising revelations from our government, they've come from the exact opposite administration that you would expect them to come from.
And generally they come when that administration is very, very strong.
So I can see the logic of this, given that they now control both houses, given that there is a real determination to do things differently, and we've seen evidence that they're doing things differently.
And there is a clock ticking.
Remember, we have been following what I call the ritual clock, that there has to be, in the unfolding decade of this new century, there has to be a time release of stuff if we're to arrive at a watershed circa 2012, which is where the clock is counting down to.
Now, Chris Carter, in his last X-Files episode, claimed that's when open contact is established.
Given that the contact will probably come from members of our own family, meaning blood relations out there among the stars and planets, if the ruins are looking out on Mars or what I think they are, I could see that there has to be foreshadowing, there has to be foundation laid, there has to be general cultural awareness of the possibility, otherwise there would be one hell of a shock.
I can understand that if ships were to begin to land in our biggest cities all around the world, there would be panic on a level that would be unacceptable.
Just about everybody who thought about it would think it would be unacceptable.
On the other hand, if news of an ancient civilization a half million years ago that existed on Mars were suddenly to come to light, shocking and interesting and fascinating and intriguing and thought-provoking as that might be, there's nothing particularly threatening about a bunch of skeletons on Mars.
It's only threatening when we go, open the door, and believe me, it's not going to be inscriptions on the wall.
It's going to be something extraordinarily sophisticated.
Because remember, if we're looking at something real here, it's incredibly high tech.
It's not like Sumer.
It's not like Egypt.
Those are pale copies.
Those are echoes down through time by humans, by terrestrials on this planet, who were mimicking through myths and legends and their architecture the wonders and the fabulous nature of what they'd heard about or maybe even seen an archive picture buried somewhere here on Earth.
Because you can imagine if folks did come here en masse, you know, half a million years ago or 300,000, they would have left a lot of stuff, and it would have been high-tech stuff that would have been pretty resistant to time and change and enterprise.
I had this vision of a warehouse like that with all the good stuff kept from us because of Brookings type thinking on the part of a small custodian of guys, self-appointed, who basically think they're the keepers of what we can and cannot know.
I had a guy show up at one of my conferences who claimed that he was Robert Oppenheimer's nephew.
And he told me flat out that in 1987, they brought something out in a C-130 that they found behind the walls off the passage leading to the Queen's Chamber in the Great Pyramid.
But I do know that we independently were looking into interesting weirdness that went on in 87 around the Great Pyramid and the Japanese discovery with gravimeters of strange rooms, hidden rooms behind that passage down to the Queen's Chamber.
And we do know that they actually drill through those walls into those rooms.
And I was told by friends of mine at the Smithsonian that some very interesting stuff was shipped to Washington.
Of course, when we tried to track it down in the public archive, the kind of records, bills of waiting, and all that, not a trace.
But a very well-known archaeologist from Egypt stood up in an open meeting of archaeologists in Tennessee in that timeframe, witnessed by a very well-known American archaeologist whose name, oddly enough, is Gypsy Graves.
An archaeologist with a last name Graves.
Yes, Muriel.
She lives in Florida, and she is a wonderful individual.
She led the first woman team of archaeologists in the 80s that the Egyptian government, Zahi, permitted to actually dig on and around the plateau.
Let me finish, if I can, that little story about the Great Pyramid, because it does bear on the rest of what we want to talk about.
Sure.
My friend Gypsy Graves was in this meeting in Tennessee in the late 80s, 87, 88, somewhere around there.
And she reported that one of the archaeologists from the Council of Antiquities from Egypt was making a presentation.
And he talked about them officially drilling into the side wall of the passage that goes to the Queen's Chamber, which is the lower chamber of the Great Pyramid.
This was a wall that the Japanese, a year or so before in 1986, had found readings from ravimeters.
These are gadgets that basically measure slight gravity variations.
And they found what they thought were hollows behind the walls.
Because if you've got an empty room, you know, it's going to have less mass and therefore less gravity than if it's full masonry all the way out to the edge of the pyramid.
When they drilled in, according to this archaeologist from Egypt that my friend, you know, heard in this major meeting, she wasn't the only one there, but she's the only one I know, she said that he said they found sand.
Well, now sand is very interesting because sand makes one heck of a shock absorber.
If you want to put something valuable in a room and keep it safe from earthquakes for thousands of years, if you don't have that stupid popcorn that comes in every package these days and winds up spilling all over the floor, you would pack it in sand.
Because sand, I mean sand is used for instance in road barriers, those big yellow buckets at exits and bridges, where if you swerve off the road, if you had too much to drink, you crash into the barrier, They break, they also use water.
And the idea is the momentum is transferred to the water or the sand, it goes flying up into the air, your car is cushioned, and you wind up surviving what could be a fatal head-on crash.
So, sand is a good protector in earthquakes.
So, when the sand started coming out, they apparently captured some of it, and they took it to the lab for analysis.
And he reported, this is again an archaeologist from the Council of Antiquities reporting at an official meeting in Tennessee in 1987, that the sand was, in his words, highly radioactive.
No, this was something significant, but I just had the feeling, and she did too, that the way he said it, that it was anomalously high as opposed to dangerously high.
So, I mean, there's a whole story that goes along with this, which I'm going to put in the new book.
But the bottom line is that I think that whoever built the pyramid concealed something in those rooms.
So later, I had people, other people from Sedona who used to do tours to Egypt every year.
And they were able to get into the pyramid by seducing their keeper away for an afternoon.
And they bribed the guards and they got in.
And one of them actually took pictures.
And they reported back to me that what they found was a huge replastered area in the Queen's chamber on the wall that was around the corner from where the holes were drilled in the passage.
Like something big had been taken out and they'd replastered the wall.
Furthermore, they found up in the Grand Gallery, which is this sloping 26-degree seven-corbled stair-step vault inside the pyramid, you know, incredible feat of engineering and artistry, which is directly above, the end of the Grand Gallery is directly above the Queen's Chamber.
They found and photographed very large steel bracings.
Like someone had put these massive steel bracings to keep it from falling down as someone was jackhammering in to the pyramid in the bottom underneath in the Queen's Chamber.
And this was the time when there was a bunch of Americans that went there and used some high technology to excavate the solar boat pit outside the pyramid.
There are two solar boat pits, huge wooden boats, that were literally buried.
They were taken apart carefully and buried in pieces.
And the standard Egyptological theory is that they were for the Pharaoh, you know, his solar boat that would be symbolically reassembled in his afterlife.
But as a matter of fact, that the pyramids were there when the Egyptians as a culture formed, and they just inherited them, which is perfectly fine.
You know, because the stuff we're talking about, let me finish the story and then we'll get on with Mars.
The interesting thing about all this is that these people, separate people, not knowing each other, would come and tell me this stuff.
And I tried to get the photographs from the Sedona group.
And when they heard what I wanted to do with them, this woman freaked out, refused to let me have them because she said that it would upset American-Egyptian relations and it would basically show that they were covering up extraordinary stuff.
Well, well, but that's what truth tends to do sometimes.
The key thing is that you've got the Japanese in 86 finding the chambers by gravity meters.
You've got the drilling in 8687, the radioactive stand from an Egyptian representative at official scientific meetings.
Late in 87, you've got my guys go there and see evidence of some huge excavation, probably with jackhammers.
That's why the Grand Gallery was braced because there'd be incredible vibration directly up through the pyramid into the Grand Gallery.
And then at the end of 87, at this conference in LA, you've got a guy comes up to me out of nowhere, claiming to be the nephew of Robert Oppenheimer, and he says that there was something taken out of the pyramid in 87, put on a C-130, and spirited out the right path.
I mean, I tried, you know, I was actually, I was signing books, and I was like in the middle of a whole bunch of people, and I couldn't just say, you know, I'll forget about you and I'm going to run after this guy.
It was just one of those things where he just stopped by to tell me something, and of course, he had no way of knowing all of the things that I've been working on.
Anyway, the bottom line is that the Great Pyramid is an extraordinary masterpiece of architecture and art.
I don't think that, quote, primitives did it.
I think it was extraordinarily sophisticated engineering.
I'm not alone in that.
And there's a lot of other evidence indicating that something radioactive may have been inside, possibly as a power source.
Do you get the feeling that maybe the Casey Foundation knows more and is not telling as much as it should?
Because they have put these two key keepers of the old guard in their key positions?
Anyway, just a thought.
So Lehner does some brilliant work in his Ph.D. climb in Jerusalem, where he's able to date an old wall by some radiocarbon dating of the mortar in the wall.
You can't date rock or stone, but you can date the mortar.
And when you basically cut down the wheat, Anything biological will have a radiocarbon content.
And we won't go into how you measure the clock, but there's a way to do that.
And it's very well tested.
So Blena was able to come up with a date, pretty good date for this wall in Jerusalem.
Then he got the bright idea, still while he was under the influence of the Casey people, to go to Egypt and to collect samples of mortar from the Great Pyramid.
And he had the most modern technique, because there used to be an old-fashioned technique where it took, you know, many, many ounces, or at least a few grams.
There's a new technique using atomic accelerators that basically bombards the carbon with a proton beam and creates radioactive daughter products that they then measure that will give you, through a calculation, the amount of carbon and carbon-14 that was in the original sample.
And for that, you only need like a millionth of a gram.
The two studies that resulted were that in this spiral path of samples from the bottom to the top, the samples taken from the top were literally a thousand years older than the samples at the bottom.
And that's where the whole idea of, you know, pharaohs and afterlife and flying to the stars and all that Came from because it's again a warped version of the real physics of real stuff.
The other thing has to do with where it sits on the Earth.
The pyramid is precisely, well, within a few arc minutes, of 30 degrees north.
There's a whole bunch of pyramids around the Earth.
I mean, you can see archaeological digs are now digging up gigantic feeding facilities and kitchens and, you know, the kind of logistics that would have been required for an enormous working force, Richard.
What it would do if it literally was altered by its presence in the hyperdimensional machine known as the pyramid, it becomes a kind of a little mini gate of its own.
And one of the things that we know about the hyperdimensional physics is that it changes radioactive decay constants.
But radioactive materials are not immutable.
They do not have an immutable half-life.
The half-life can change depending on the physics, depending upon the hyperdimensional environment in which they are.
Since the pyramid was this massive machine that was literally connecting itself to hyperspace when it was energized, all the stuff in it, all the limestone, particularly limestone that was part of the piece that Larry brought back, which was from those bags that were brought down from the chamber?
And when you bring them close to a radioactive source, what it would do would be to increase the natural radioactive rate, which means the radium, I forget what the half-liber radium is, but it's a certain number of atoms per minute, all right, that produce the little glow of the phosphorescent paint.
If they were to be increased, in other words, the number of fissions were to increase significantly because of proximity to this little piece of hyperdimensional tunneling, then the radioactive rate would go up, the phosphor would be bombarded greater, the light would become greater, and I would not do this for a long period of time, Art.
Well, but I think that's a political position, because remember, if you've experimented with pieces, you know, with watches and radioactive stuff, he's had access to all this for decades.
You don't imagine that he hasn't been listening to the show.
Given that this stuff's been sitting there, you know, available to tourists and anybody else for literally thousands of years, the idea that the keeper of the flame in the 21st century would be building a wall to guard access to the pyramids, what more can happen to them?
Well, we're getting close to that magic date of 2012.
And as I said, one of the models is that that's the year we make contact.
Another model is that that's the year when they finally admit what you and I are discussing right now, namely that we're a lot older and a lot more extraordinary than we think, and we have much deeper roots in time and space and history than anybody has dared to believe.
And I would say that while that would shake up a lot of people, I think the world would probably be able to live with it.
I mean, it's an ancient, dead civilization.
Yes, it will cause us to have discussions about our own roots, but it's not going to tear society into little pieces knowing that something half a million years old and dead is on Mars.
If we had evidence of a city on Mars or libraries that we could go and visit, we'd be screaming from the top of the building here in Houston for all to hear that we need the money for a manned mission to Mars to go read what's in the libraries.
Well, what you're going to see when it comes up, and for people who actually have been able to get it downloaded, it's a composite of three images.
The two top images are a black and white on the left and a color version on the right of a nighttime infrared that was taken on March 21st of this year, released in October in the PDS data dump that we were all anticipating.
And it was the closest nighttime image to Sidonia until Gorlick, Banff, whatever his real name is, released the image on the 31st, claiming that was the night MIR he had taken on the 24th of October.
Oh, yeah, green and blue and purplish and all that.
Those are from three bands.
I think it's band 4, band 9, and band 10, I believe.
At the bottom is the purported nighttime IR.
And the first thing you've got to know is that the image taken on the left, the top black image, black and white, was taken on March 21, which is just about the dead of Martian winter.
It was taken only 100 miles away from Sidonia.
So it's the same geology, same geography.
If you look at the bottom image, that's the one that was supposedly taken at the height of the summer.
October 24th turns out to be just after the summer solstice in the northern hemisphere.
The lower green line is the winter solstice sunset.
So as on Earth, if you sit as I do here in the wonderful New Mexico desert and watch sunsets out my windows, you can see the sun tracks back and forth along the horizon as the year progresses.
What I did was simply look at the slopes, the cliffs, and there's this little feature that we call the island because it looks like a big island, you know, like a flat mesa.
Why would they conceal that they had taken the picture then?
Well, for one thing, in January, what was NASA doing with the Odyssey mission?
They weren't even in the right orbit yet to begin their formal mapping.
They were doing, and there's some linked releases from JPL that are going to be in our story tomorrow evening, they were talking about tweaking the orbit, doing little burns here, doing little burns there, circularizing, adjusting, et cetera, et cetera.
That's when they took this image.
In other words, the first thing NASA did when it got to Mars, and after the arrow breaking, it took these pictures of Sidonia and then lied to us about it.
It stuck a guy named Bamp slash Gorlick over at Enterprise, claiming that they couldn't take any pictures in the infrared in the night because it was too cold.
Well, because I gave my word to Tom Van Schlander a few days after I found them and was wondering what the hell, you know, I mean, the question you put is absolutely accurate.
Because he said that another scientist at SPSR had found them, and the timeline looked like he found them before I did.
But more important, they wanted to put them in a paper, a peer-reviewed scientific paper, to walk in the front door at Nature or Science.
Nature was the preferred journal then, the most prestigious scientific journal in the world, and put them on the table along with a lot of other enigmas on the image to get a scientific debate started in the mainstream science community.
And I thought that that was a good idea, but I argued strenuously that there had to be two roads to that.
There had to be two takes to what they meant.
One was, yeah, they might be on Mars, but the other is that they also might well be on Earth.
This is where things get murky, and it pains me no end to say this, Tom, Tom.
But I guess I need to say this.
I have since discovered in the last week that Tom Van Flandern, apparently, and his cronies back there have had a hidden agenda.
And the agenda is to basically deep six any possibility that NASA and JPL could have covered this stuff up for 30 years.
And they have been the stalking horse for the they can do no wrong.
And if we find it, it's because they didn't really recognize it until just yesterday.
And he has been very carefully cultivating me as a, quote, friend to try to get information out of enterprise and our work that they could then use politically to other ends.
And this all came to a head at this bizarre press conference that he held last Thursday at the National Press Club, where he didn't tell us until the last minute he was even going to do it.
And then he took a whole bunch of work from a whole bunch of people, ourselves included, and paraded them in front of people in Washington without any attribution to where the original data had come from, which is the absolute worst sin you can do in the world of science.
You have got to reference and attribute other people's work.
I think that we're dealing here with a potential stalking horse for the agency itself, for that group in NASA.
Remember, most of NASA, 18,000 people, is honest.
But there is a tiny group that has been manipulating this issue for over 20 years.
And I think Van Planner has fallen under the influence of that group.
And it's like, you know, he got me to promise not to do anything with these because they're so politically explosive.
And then they just sat on them for year after year after year until finally he debuted them himself last Thursday at this press conference, which of course has freed me from my promise.
And now an appropriate investigation can go forward.
And I feel really bad because I'm the one that promoted him for your show.
I put him on this show.
I supported his science.
He has a stunningly accurate, critically important model, the exploding planet hypothesis.
It will be proved ultimately to be correct.
It is a huge part of the hidden Mars story.
But what I've also found is that there has been an agenda for the last three years, and I can't reveal some sources on that yet, where Mr. Van Flandren has been trying to basically take over the Sidonia investigation and make himself the catbird in the catbird seat to the exclusion of a lot of other people, including our own work.
He would say that, you know, there are honest people in NASA and that we can't prove conspiracy and cover-up and we don't want to damage reputations.
And it's bunk.
You know, this is not an academic exercise.
This is for all the onions.
This is for the heart and soul of the human race.
If there really are beings who built things on Mars, who might be our lineal ancestors, who in fact might have, as he is proposing, put letters on the planet that are connected to our own alphabet, which is an astonishing idea if it's true, then you can't pussyfoot.
You can't timidly walk around and not look at the people who are deliberately, like Mike Malin, not telling us the truth.
Mike Malin, the night of that press conference a week ago on April 5th, the third anniversary of the cat box image, put another 10,230 images out on the web that he'd been sitting on for about a year.
And three more shots around the face on Mars, except he can't seem to hit it.
He's like those stormtroopers in the Star Wars movies.
You know how the safest thing to be on a Star Wars movie was somebody not in a screen suit in a white suit?
April 27th, Friday evening, three weeks from tomorrow night.
We will have a one-hour special on the PAX television network with all the people, including Van Plander.
And he's going to be represented on that special with his various ideas.
Basically, the history of the Sazoni investigation to date, including Arthur C. Clarke's provocative comments.
And I've got another one for you tonight.
Anyway, before we close this out, I want to say...
I think that that meeting, remember, there was a meeting at NASA headquarters in the fall of 97.
And Ben Flander was there, David Webb was there, DuPetro was there, Mark Carlotta was there.
I think that covers everybody.
Oh, and McDaniel.
And at this meeting, where nobody else was allowed in, I wasn't invited, you know, I certainly kept me five light years away, there was a conversation.
And the guys came out afterwards representing that NASA looked very seriously at this and was going to take new images of Sidonia.
And nothing happened, nothing happened, nothing happened.
And you know, and I know, and the few million people who listen to us over our shoulders know that it was this audience and the facts that they sent to Dan Golden and those emails and the copies to all the networks that got those pictures taken three years ago last week.
Well, I have a feeling, I can't prove it, I've got one first-hand report from one of the participants that I can't disclose, but there were some promises made in that meeting that I think the American people need to know about.
And what happened is the behavior of each of those participants after they came out of that meeting completely changed.
People who would talk to us wouldn't anymore.
People who had written books claiming that NASA, with documentation, had been covering up on Mars for 20-some years, on your show, recanted them.
So if I was a district attorney, I was looking to a key point in time when everybody went weird, when they went south on the crime being committed, which is the cover-up, a la Brookings, of the greatest discovery in the history of the human race, I would focus on what happened at that meeting and who was promised what and what they have done since.
I really think it's important that he be able to explain why he would want to keep these bundled up for three years by making you promise in such an absolute way that you wouldn't release them.
I really want to understand this, and that may be one way.
If instead of following the Van Flandren path three years ago, when, you know, remember, any case that you let get cold, it's harder and harder to get to the truth, right?
And maybe there's a guy that worked for Mailin, or maybe there's a guy or a gal at JPL that is an honest, patriotic American and was so incensed with what was going on, what they saw happening, that they took the opportunity to sneak these things in down on the DNM, which I've called the Rosetta Stone.
I mean, the humor here is, the irony here is absolutely right, because the DNM is the Rosetta Stone in the classical model of the Rosetta Stone, which was the key to decoding Egyptian hieroglyphs, you know, back in the 1700s.
So to stick these letters on the DNM, which mathematically is the code key to breaking Mars, is, again, a level of humor which should not escape everybody.
And somebody, maybe somewhere, there is a patriotic American tonight who's just waiting for a press person to say, how do those letters get on that image?
I expect you've all seen the Planetary Society's Visions of Mars CD, which should have been taken there and is at the bottom of the Pacific tonight, by the way.
He goes on, I still hope that future colonists will have a chance of enjoying it.
Our knowledge of our exciting little neighbor has certainly increased enormously since the far-off days when Ray Bradbury, Bruce Murray, and I met at JPL before the Viking launch.
And Carl Sagan was also there, I should add.
Next paragraph.
I'm fairly convinced.
This is Clark now.
I'm fairly convinced from recent images that there is vegetation on Mars.
And I wouldn't be surprised if you find something even more exciting.
Now, what's more exciting than vegetation?
Are we talking herds of Martian buffaloes stampeding across the pictures here?
He is as sharp now at 84 as he was when I met him 30-some years ago.
No, this is part of their plan.
This is part of why they were telling us about 2001.
It's time.
And I think, and I'm going to put in the new version of Monuments that we're almost ready to put out, some thoughts about him and me and Kubrick, which we've never put on paper before.
But I think this is part of a plan, part of the disclosure plan.
Not the cover-up crowd, but the get-it-out there crowd.
And I see Arthur is having a wonderful time.
I mean, that email is dripping with his classic humor.
I mean, on the upside, look at the extraordinary things we're about to experience.
When this mission, when his mission, and I'm going to call it that from now on, why not, gets to Mars in October and finally gets into the proper orbit at the end of December, we could have the most astonishing Christmas present because it carries an exquisite color camera with like 15 or 20 different spectral bands.
knows what he's saying because there can't be vegetation on the current mars that nasa's given you know you've got to admit from arthur's perspective christmas 2001 would be Oh, that would be just the right time to have that kind of news delivered from his point of view.
I've done shows with Richard before where something or another disappeared, and it's always some godforsaken thruster reason or burn-up or, you know, atmospheric expansion.
Now, with regard to what Richard has said of these images, I am of the opinion that when you look at them, if these are genuine, underline, big, underline, under if, because we're going to get to that part in a moment, if they're genuine, then the image number two clearly is a city, a city on Mars.
Now, that's what's at stake here.
However, there's a part of this that I'm having real difficulty digesting, and that is the sort of the way that it has come to Keith and to Richard.
The manner in which it's come, I mean, it's very, very suspect from my point of view.
Secret acronyms, innuendos, secret messages by spoofed people on the internet.
I really have a difficult time with that.
And when you're considering balancing in your, you know, the way I do with everything, and I hope you do too, you sit out there and balance what we've got here.
On the one hand, do we have a real city on Mars?
That's not trivial news, is it?
And it does look like a city if it's genuine, but is it genuine?
Well, we're dealing with people sending messages in chat rooms and crap like that.
That really begins to weigh heavily on the other hand on the BS scale.
You know, it starts to weigh pretty heavily in my mind.
I've had plenty of experience with the Internet, and as wonderful an instrument as the Internet is, and it is a wonderful instrument, it's absolutely not applying to anything.
I mean, our society needs to get around to that.
There needs to be some way that you can be identified on the Internet.
And there are certain ways, but anything, nearly anything a good hacker will tell you can be spoofed, period.
So either this is the real McCoy, and there's a big damn city under Mars, or it's not the real McCoy.
And as we trace how this has all come to pass, I worry very heavily about the way the information has been passed, handled, and the discussion has taken place in internet chat rooms.
I have not called NASA kind words the guys who are doing us in, not the honest folks over there, but the other ones, in a very long time, have I?
I basically claim that we are being lied to, we are being deceived, we are being led down the garden path.
They are keeping all kinds of important data secrets from the people who paid for it.
You know, the old acronym that back in my days with Cronkite, we used to call NASA, never a straight answer, has been turned up in spades.
And this is only the latest example of many, many others.
What is extraordinary and what I find sociologically and politically so interesting tonight is that instead of just leaving us alone, this little small bunch of crazies who think there's something out there, when the agency says there's nothing.
The image that Keith got is a copy of an image created From the spacecraft data files, which are called PNM files, and it was made according to our UNIX expert.
We have one of those.
His name is Holger Eisenberg in Dortmund, Germany.
He actually is getting a degree in computer science and engineering, and he works as a UNIX administrator in Dortmund at the university.
So here's an expert in UNIX systems.
He's the one who told us when we sent him the image.
But this image is made on an old government system.
Now, it's a kind of a cornerstone of the Constitution that when you are accused of a crime, you get a chance to face your accuser.
Keith's accuser tonight is using the Enterprise Conference to basically claim that Keith is a hoaxer, a liar, has created a fraud, has gone on your show and told 20 million people complete lies and nonsense and made-up fairy tales.
But he will not come on your show art, on your air, and say this to Keith's face.
Now, there was a campaign, the Dukakis campaign, where the candidates exchanged insults and accusations.
When those accusations were not answered, people assumed that the accuser was right and the accusee was wrong.
The fact that Mr. Dorilik does not have the moral fortitude.
Well, this is very different because every time this person logs on from ASU, our people contract the ISB codes.
We know exactly almost which phone he's logging on from there at the university.
Let me read you the email from Dr. Christensen that was sent to us a couple of days ago when we were going to come on and basically lay this case out before the country then.
He says, I am confused by your statements regarding the FEMAS IR data and your decision not to release your findings.
This was a week and a half ago.
The data were calibrated by our standard processes in the same way that it's done for the FEMA science team.
We were asking questions about what's on the website.
I am not sure why you are suggesting that Noel or anyone else on the FEMAS team has done anything to alter the data.
Her parenthetical statement for me.
Bamp had claimed it was his right, since he maintains the website, to alter the data, to screw up the data, to add noise to the data, to scribble on it with crayons if he wanted to.
And that's why we were concerned.
Christensen goes on.
He, Noel, aka Bamp, was simply questioning how you have treated the data and how you are validating your methods and processes.
So Christensen is validating that Noel Gorlick is in fact present at Enterprise Mission, is talking to our people, instructing them in what he's been instructing them in in terms of multispectral.
I mean, he has been talking to us through email since I think our first article where he sent us an unsolicited email was back in March after the first press conference.
And so when we had technical questions, for instance, there are two 662 IR vans.
We wondered if there was a misnumbering of the vans on the posted data.
When you go to the Themis site, you have a PNG, you have a GIF, you have a JPEG, or a TIFF you can download.
Four little windows.
Obviously, if you want the best quality, you go for the TIFF because it's uncompressed data.
But there was no way to know when Keith would do that unless someone was following his IP address.
He has a broadband connection, unlike those of us in the desert.
And every time he logs on or goes anywhere, it's the same IP address.
So an expert like Mr. Gorilik in computer processing, who has a nickname BAMF, which means redirecting people to other websites without their knowledge, could easily have tracked Keith's movements.
And when he got to the FEMA site, he zaps him to the image he wanted him to download that night, the real image.
Well, this would be the equivalent of a forgery of an incredible classic done by somebody who could duplicate that classic work and not be detected, perhaps by even an expert.
You know, there are ways in the legal system, Peter and I have been discussing for months now how to bring a case on behalf of the American people so this kind of chicanery and nonsense stops.
You can't do this with impunity.
This is an arrogance if it's a hoax of unimaginable proportions trashing, in principle, the quest to find out the truth about our neighborhood, our heritage, and our future.
Keith, Richard, who would be more likely to do a big DOS attack, huh?
The government or the persons we imagine might have made this up within the government or some stupid bunch of probably pretty smart hackers who set your butt up.
Now, they'd do DOS attacks, but would the government employee do DSO?
DOS attacks?
Not likely because they're going to get nailed on the sources.
We've certainly been quoting them on your show for the last couple of years.
Remember, about a year ago in May of 2001, I came on and I said there was going to be a really important release of data on the face on Mars the next day.
And what's most important for Americans to believe tonight, We have to get the rest of it.
He is adamant, and the people behind him are, that we cannot wait one more day for Christensen to publish this data, the rest of the daytime IR, and most crucially, the nighttime IR.
And in the next half hour, I will explain why that will blow this case sky high.
On the one hand, we've got pictures of a city on Mars.
I mean, if you believe they're real, then, you know, you look at it, I mean, it's a city.
It's L.A., it's New York.
Well, maybe not New York.
It'd be bigger.
But, you know, it's a U.S. city.
That's image number two.
It's one that startles me, that actually will send chills down your spine.
But then on the other hand, we have more intrigue in our other hand than there is red poosh dirt on Mars.
I mean, we've got chat rooms and redirect websites where secret pictures were passed and then later denied.
And we have other people in chat rooms calling people liars and the rest of it.
And a lot of this done through the internet.
And I'm very, very, very leery of the internet.
Very leery.
I love the internet.
I have a particularly high-speed connection.
It's got about T3 here, actually.
So I dearly love it.
We use a hell out of it.
It's a useful tool, but it's also totally subject.
You know, I saw something earlier on CNN that about 40-some percent of what's sent on the to anybody, the average person in email on the internet today is about 40% is spam.
40% is spam.
And I can tell you personally, because I recognize the viruses so easily, that of the email I get every day, and that would be, you know, thousands of emails, two or three thousand typically, very typically, 10% of them are viruses.
10, fully 10% of the emails I'm getting are viruses.
Now, I don't use a virus protection program.
I occasionally scan with one.
I don't need it.
They're so recognizable.
My beautiful whitewife.bat, Japanese girl versus Playboy.
It goes on and on.
With EXEs, B-A-T-P-I-Fs, every kind of imaginable access they can try to get to your machine to give you a virus.
There's a million of them out there, and they're very easy to spot.
The internet is just rife with people who are masquerading, people who are spoofing, people who are using computers to send out spam email.
It's just a wreck, a disaster up there.
And so you've got to measure that in your other hand as you listen to the history of this information so far.
Because I think we're focusing too narrowly on the, I mean, we all know that the internet is a Wild West town.
That notwithstanding, the internal consistency of this data and its match with a completely separate mission mounted from halfway around the planet from the Soviet Union over 10 years ago, 12 years ago, and what they found with a similar instrument has got to be understood.
When you look at the BBC coverage of the Phobos II mission to Mars that was laid out in London at the Science Museum with a whole bunch of very prestigious Russian scientists that were allowed to come out to the West and lay out the data before it all disappeared, and I've got the videotape from that program, you see in their imagery essentially identical buried subterranean structures to what we're seeing on this data tonight.
Now their camera was not as sophisticated because it was 10 years ago or more.
It was not in the multi-spectral bands that we now appreciate, you know, that we can look at it, courtesy of Keith Laney and his processes.
Remember, our tidal model of Mars says that you had a thriving civilization and something went radically wrong.
And you had a tidal release.
The planet blows up, oceans slosh, and you basically bury everything in miles of gunk.
And in some places, it will be more preserved than others.
And in some places, the water, instead of cascading down, is a huge tidal wave, a la the scene in Deep Impact.
Remember where the tidal wave rushes over New York?
That would have smashed the things we're seeing down there flat.
This water rose.
And one of the things that I didn't get to earlier in the evening was our model is a little more complicated than just a layer of dust filling these deep canyons with structures.
All right?
It's a two-component model.
What we think we're looking at is the city encased in ice with a layer of dust on top.
And the infrared is going through the dust, which is probably relatively thin, Through a much thick layer of ice that basically is the waters of the Martian oceans that rose and flooded this shoreline, because this used to be an ancient shoreline.
So there are conditions under which you can get enormous transparency.
In fact, the U.S. Navy has a great deal of data from the Arctic, you know, from submarines underneath the polarized capsule.
And in fact, we tried to get some of that data from our source, and there was a bit of a tizzy because when we asked for it, some people thought we'd actually been given classified data, and we had a bit of a dust up earlier last week until it was clarified that no one had given us anything that we weren't supposed to have.
So we're looking at every aspect of this, and I want to bring you now back to more data.
Now, our model is that someone took the real data, which has the blocks, has the city, has everything we talked about tonight, added the noise, vacuumed off the rectilinear geometries after probing some people as to whether they found it.
Well, our website at enterprisemission.com, if you can get in, because there's a lot of people looking tonight.
I'm sure.
At the top, we have, in fact, I think I've got it here.
We have a section titled, What You Can Do to Help, which basically is a listing of all the email addresses of media, Congress, the White House, talk shows, political shows.
Everybody in this country who's supposed to be out there to help you get to the truth is on that website, created for us by people like Bob Williams and several others.
If you want to know the truth about this, you have got to make some noise.
Well, the last time, and again, this comes from our sources in Washington who are very interested in how this is going to play out.
This is a people's war.
This is a democratic last stand where do the American people have a right to see what they have really paid for.
I have a personal feeling, Art, that Banff is a hero.
I really think I want to award him the Enterprise White Hat of the Week.
Because despite all his protestations, besides his refusal to come on your show...
Well, but think of it this way.
Suppose you have been in a system.
Suppose you have a family.
Suppose you have watched the chicanery, the double dealing, the duplicity, and are just fed up.
And you're one guy in a key position to slip something exquisite out the back door to the folks that you have done your homework on and you think may have an even shot of getting at the truth.
Whereas, in fact, under the cover of that, you have slipped us real data and you are praying that we will know politically and technically what to do with it.
And furthermore, you've aced your bet.
You have gone on in private emails to about six separate imaging people and given them private tutorials in how to work with this data.
Nothing else makes sense.
Enterprise is not that damn important unless there is an exquisite hidden agenda here to get us something we can finally work with.
Now, I admit that we need further and deeper investigation.
One of the key problems with your recommendation, Art, is we are broke.
We cannot afford to hire a private investigator of the high-tech caliber of the people that you're talking about.
We can barely afford computer programs and to keep the lights off.
You know, I have funded Enterprise out of my own pocket for years, putting all the monies from the Monuments of Mars back in, putting any monies I got from television presentations back in, any lecture fees I put back into Enterprise.
If people want to help us get to the bottom, give us some money so we can, in fact, afford to hire the best high-tech investigators on the internet to get to the bottom of this.
And all you do is send us a check to EnterpriseMission at P.O. Box 3550, Edgewood, New Mexico, 87015.
And we can use the help.
We are at the end of what we can do with the resources we have.
We had major security problems at Enterprise last week.
We had huge amounts of attacks.
We need something like $6,000 worth of equipment just to maintain Enterprise in a secure way so we can present the data, which we give to the country for free.
In other words, if you have a leak, I mean, we've seen this in Washington for years.
What happens in Washington when someone slips a reporter a juicy story?
The guys that don't want the story to be published or to be followed try to do everything to destroy the message, the messenger, to eliminate the paper trail, to make it worthless, to cover it up.
This, to me, looks like a rearguard desperate action on the part of those that don't want you folks out there to know the truth tonight to keep you from finding it out.
I mean, all kinds of accusations have been made against me personally over the years.
I told Keyes as we went into this in the last couple of weeks, I said, you know, when this gets serious, when we get to where we can actually publish, I said, you're going to join a very exclusive fraternity.
You know, people like me who get called every name in the book simply because we want to know the truth.
And if people out there really want to help, tonight is the time to step up to the plate.
This weird echo, so I wanted to give Keith an opportunity to sort of round out between now and the bottom of the hour.
Anything you want to say, Keith?
I mean, you're in the middle of this, obviously, because the images came to you.
And at what point did you contact Richard?
unidentified
After I had processed a few of them and asked about the blocks and not gotten a satisfactory explanation and went and did a little bit of further review into it, I decided, well, let me send this to Richard and see what he thinks about it.
I mean, I had shot, you know, I've been a member of Enterprise Mission Community for a long time, and I found little weird things and said, hey, look at this, but, you know, never really any real contact.
Keith, from your point of view, you know, we've laid out these two possible scenarios.
It's real, it's slipped to you.
And we've got the real McCoy here.
And the other is, you know, set up.
What probabilities do you give to the two possibilities?
unidentified
Well, I mean, I'm always after all the NASA people.
Give me something, slip me something out the back door, you know, do something.
I mean, I will harass them and harangue them.
Once I found out Bamp was there, yes, I harassed and haranged him too.
Now, you know, I know I went to the Themis website and downloaded this image.
I've got it in my computer records that I did so.
Okay, I mean, there's no doubt to me that I got this Themis image.
I mean, and it's the same one.
I thought it was crap.
Whether I was redirected or what, it's no big deal, but I mean, I went to the Themis website and did choose that image and downloaded it.
Now, the fact that I did it on the 25th, now that might have changed something, you know, being that that's their sacred day over this particular issue.
I mean, I started processing these images, and see, there's more to it than just the one image that you see.
Like, if you go to image number one on your site, there's more to it than just those particular colors, because each one of these bands can be ratioed and put in different combinations to show you compositional differences down there.
I mean, you've got to remember, this is a multi-band image.
So, and when I take the other bands and correlate them in the same way, in the same type of combinations that those bands are made out of, that those banded pictures are made out of, they come out with variations.
The colors are in the different places, but still in the same general pattern.
The blocks are different on each one of the banded images, even in black and white.
You can look at them and you can tell that the IR is picking up different, which is differently visual.
Yeah, they were like, "Oh, that's neat." You know, I mean, that's about all I get out of it because they, you know, I get the firm feeling that they want me to pick up this out on my own.
I would like to finish with Keith and sort of get a definitive answer from you, Keith.
I mean, as you honestly weigh this in your own head, if you're, you know, I know you're immersed in it, it may be hard to step back from it and assign probabilities of fraud versus, you know, the real McCoy.
How would you stack it up?
unidentified
I would think it was fraud if it were the other way around and I got the crappy image.
The thing about it is, is this image is so good.
The data is all there.
It's so clear.
And you can replicate the results using this image.
Okay, it's not just a one-time thing.
If I take their image or if I take the other version of the image that I have and run it through the same processing, I get completely separate results.
And it's degraded, as you can see in your picture on your site.
That's what gives it to me.
I mean, the politics of it, all that escapes me.
I'm just an image processor, and I looked at the data, and this is the conclusion.
And one of the things we wanted to do was to challenge those people who are neutral, who do not have a stake in this game or, as we used to say, a dog in this fight, to go to the web, download the duplicate of the image that Keith got, which is a TIFF file, an old TIFF file.
Download it, go to the Envy website, the Research Systems Inc.
out of Boulder, out of Colorado, and download their software, contact them, get a license to process using the same techniques that Keith used, and let's compare results.
We will publish on Enterprise anybody's results on this data, side by side by side by side.
And my bet is that the professionals are going to say, this is real data.
The problem with that scenario, Arge, is if you look at other NASA missions that have comparable technology, as I said, there's a mission in orbit tonight called ASTER, A-S-T-R, for aerospace thermal imaging.
And they put data on the JPL website.
I have gone and downloaded some of that data to compare side by side with the CEMIS data.
And the original ASTER data is as good as what Keith has been working with.
It has no noise.
It's crisp.
It's pristine when you decorrelate and stretch it.
It comes out with all the right colors so you can gauge what's down there.
It's not degraded.
It's not crappy stuff.
And what I'm really suspecting is that all the other things we've been seeing from the Themis camera at Mars has been equivalently degraded.
Just so no one in the general public understands what an exquisite instrument is orbiting Mars, taking surveys that we're never supposed to see.
Well, but there's a way we can get to the end of this.
And I want to really, before we lose the time here, we've got 20 minutes left, I want to tell people what we can do.
One of the things that I've been urged by my Washington sources is for Americans listening tonight to this program, wondering about this debate, wondering where it's all going to come out, you can have a voice.
You can decide how we solve this.
And one of the ways you decide by how we solve it is to demand the rest of the infrared imaging from Themis All put out right away.
They were supposed to publish, according to their pre-mission rules and mandates, all of the data from the first two months, first month, I'm sorry, by August 18th of this year.
They now have claimed, BAMP has claimed, Krishna has claimed, Saunders has claimed, that they're not going to be able to publish it until October.
My people, my sources are telling me that the reason they have delayed art, this is extremely serious, flat-out conversation, the reason they're delaying is they are removing the offending artifacts from these images even as we speak.
Richard, what do you think the odds are, just asking here, of getting somebody to officially come on from NASA and either step around these questions in such an obvious way that we know they're lying through their teeth or tell you you're full of crap or whatever it is they're going to do directly.
A friend of mine, you know, Gary Le Guerre, was a radio show on the weekends down in Florida, tried very hard to get Banff to agree to be on his show with me.
He may try to hide tonight and claim that, you know, we're all having our last 15 minutes and making accusations from the dark against Keith, who's simply doing his job.
But he does not have the guts to stand up in front of 20 million people and basically say that on the air, does he?
But while we are doing that, while we're doing that, the people out there tonight need to know that the clock is ticking and people are erasing evidence from these pictures, according to my sources in Washington.
And they wanted me to communicate tonight.
It is emphatically important.
It is critically important that we demand all of the nighttime and daytime IR data right away.
Not wait a week, not wait two weeks, not wait ten days, right away like we got this image.
unidentified
Once they have time to do to the original data what they have done to this infrared band and posted it as the official version, there's no bringing that pristine data back.
How can asking questions, you know, if we had come on and not given you the history of this image, if we had come on and simply claim we've got it, take it or leave it, that'd be one thing.
Remember, we're looking at a 20-year cover-up documented by people like Stan McDaniel, myself, and legions of others over the years regarding the issue of is there or was there ever been intelligence on Mars?
This is merely the latest turn of the page.
We now have an exquisite instrument which can give us totally new information, which we believe we have gotten.
But I don't think if I were you, I would have gone to air with this until, for example, I got on the telephone with one of the individuals that you're talking about and had recorded a conversation where he admitted he was so-and-so or so-and-so was BAMF or whatever.
In other words, a level of knowledge beyond what was fed to you on the internet and what came across the internet, even as email, Richard.
I don't think I'd have gone to air until I talked to one of these individuals.
Well, part of this continuing process is, yes, we will attempt to establish, you know, I mean, ultimately, how do you know that somebody on the phone is a real guy?
And the bottom line is that we have a potential real discovery here that needs resources to follow up, to follow through.
And I have people telling me who I have known for half a decade, who I have met and sat in the same room with and exchanged lots of information, who are connected to the previous Reagan administration and now to this administration, who are telling me this is real data and proceed.
All right, well, I would like to offer any of the individuals mentioned, number one, airtime, to come on the air with or without Richard Hoagland being present to air their side of this story.
I think that would be worthy.
There are many who would not come on with you, Richard.
I know that.
But to get to it, I would be willing to have them on without your presence.
You've been on tonight without theirs, though you have asked for it.
I'd be willing to have them on either way and try and get to the bottom of this.
Well, the problem is, since the official project is not publishing any data around any of its images, no ancillary data, no spacecraft look angles, no sun emission, no date, no time, no orbit.
I mean, it's a very uneven playing field here.
You know, it's the old, we're NASA and you're not.
And the only way to write that is for people to go to the website and download all those emails we've put up there of all the major players politically and media-wise in the United States of America.
And we know that's how we got this image in the first place.
When you were on vacation and I was on with George, we did a program before the 24th of July where we basically demanded people go and demand that image.
And lo and behold, within a week or so, we got the image.
And we got nine bands to work with.
It didn't just put us out one image, you know, just one black and white, like they've done for most other places on Mars in the infrared.
They gave us nine bands to work with.
Then folks from ASU show up at Enterprise and tutor our people in how to work with infrared imaging.
It does not take a rocket scientist to say that somebody wanted us to work with this image to find out what was on it.
And they're simply sticking with plausible desiability from no fingerprints.
And as we were working through the physics of this, I said, you know, Ron, I'm reaching a tentative conclusion that I think is going to knock your socks off, so you better sit down.
And he says, okay.
I said, the only way I can see realistically for this to be what we're seeing in the daytime is if it's not just being warm by the sun, but if it's intrinsically warm in and of itself.
In other words, these things are warm under there.
Because the technology that we have projected for this level of civilization, hyperdimensional physics allows a technology that's just like the energizer bunny, keeps going and going and going.
And here is the capper.
If we get a nighttime infrared image of Sidonia, if I'm right, then it should look like Los Angeles down there in the dark.
It should be glowing like neon signs up and down Hollywood and vine.
So, Mr. and Mr. American, you have got to help us get this data and get it now.
And the email list and the fax numbers and the phone numbers, all those talk shows and all those Politicos and the White House and the Congress and everyone who can be interested in the outcome Is on our website tonight.
Just go to EnterpriseMission.com, go down to the slug that says how you can help, and you'll find tons of ways that you can meaningfully help.