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March 11, 1998 - Art Bell
02:06:08
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Peter Davenport - Tampa Sightings Update. Sonic Testing and Whales
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on AM 1500 KSTV.
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Good morning, everybody.
From the kingdom of Nye, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
First time callers may reach Art at area code 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again is Art.
Once again, here I am. Good morning everybody.
We are following two big stories this night, mainly.
We'll rummage through the news again, but they are...
I'm There is a big rock headed our way.
It's all over the news tonight.
I gave you news of the beginning of that story a day or two ago.
Well, there is substance to it.
There is an asteroid.
Uh, it may indeed hit Earth.
It is one mile wide.
It will not hit, if it hits, until 2028.
Now, what they're saying is, uh, it's about a mile in size, 1.6 kilometers.
It's been named 1997 XF-11.
You may be hearing a lot about 1997 XF-11.
You may be hearing a lot about 1997 XF-11.
It is said to pass perhaps as close as 32,000 miles from Earth.
But you see, they really don't know because they've got an error factor here of about 200,000 miles.
Now, to give you reference on how close that is, the Moon is about 250,000 miles from us, I believe.
So 32,000 miles is close.
miles from us I believe so 32,000 miles is close and a 200,000 mile error either
way means that this one could hit And there are stories all over my email, all over Reuters, just about everywhere.
I've got a comment here from Brian Marsden of the Astronomical Union, who said, even if we're on a path to hit Earth, technology might be available by then, capable of deflecting the asteroid.
What would be scary is if it were three days from now, or three weeks, or even three years.
Thirty years is just right, because it's far enough in the future.
Now, I'll be an old guy, probably retired by then, but as I said, maybe some kind broadcaster of the future will, if this thing really is coming in, allow me to go on the air, and do what I've always said I would do, and talk that baby in.
Or, maybe they'll hit it with something and break it into four pieces, which, let's see, would be about a quarter of a mile apiece, assuming it broke evenly.
Anyway, so we'll talk about the asteroid.
And then, there is another big story.
The Navy is blasting whales and blasting dolphins for some reason.
So far, undiscernible.
I really don't know why they're doing this.
They are going to produce incredible decibel levels of sonar in the world's oceans.
There is a legal battle of some description going on in Hawaii, but I believe they're at about the final step of being able to get permission for whatever reason to do this at a time when we've got a lot of beachings going on for reasons that we do not understand.
It didn't seem like a great idea to me.
In the last half hour, I interviewed a young man, Greg Liberace, who was a sonar operator on board a nuclear fast attack submarine, the USS Skipjack SSN-585, who said, aren't I know whales?
In fact, I was surprised to find I know things that scientists now seem to only be discovering.
I'm sure other good sonar techs and operators would verify this.
I know about most sonars used in the Atlantic from World War II forward through the current models.
And he says, you are correct.
This is a very bad idea.
So I brought Greg on the air and for half an hour we talked to him about a sonar and whales.
And he does know a lot about whales.
He was a little nervous being on the air.
Then I got the following facts, and we may bring Greg back on the air again.
Dick Allgaier in Hawaii works for KITV News, television news guy.
And he writes, me again Arch, I have audio of the sonar testing and the whales taped today from my videotaped report which I can play for you over the phone.
They are using low frequency sonar to track submarines.
You can hear the sonar and the whale songs clearly.
I have interesting questions to raise about this.
Why are Navy people on board a civilian ship?
I also have photos.
I'm standing by now and he gives me the number and so to the Hawaiian Islands we go.
Dick, welcome to the show.
You are there.
Dick?
I'm here.
Okay, good.
I'm tired.
It's been a long day.
I was up at 5 a.m.
to fly to Kona and I went out on a Zodiac and I was on board the research vessel with a camera with other TV crews and we taped reports on the testing.
You said That they had a court battle and it was the final step to allow them to do that.
That's incorrect.
They're doing it.
They're doing the frequency, low frequency testing.
It has already.
They've been doing it for a week.
It's already begun.
I'll play it for you.
They were blasting it out there today.
We watched it and listened to it.
Alright, is this, before we do that, is this big news?
I presume since they sent you out on a ship all day long today, it must be big news in Hawaii.
This has been news For over a week because protesters have been going out in boats and throwing themselves in the water in the path of the boat and there have been court cases.
Yes, it's a story that we've been following here.
Locally.
Were you able to hear what the sonar operator from the Skipjack said in the last half hour?
Yes, I was kind of busy faxing you, so I more or less heard what he said.
Well, he said, for example, dolphins use sonar to, at close range, to stun fish, you know, for food.
And he said if they get hit with this kind of decibel level, It's going to blow their little minds, putting it mildly.
So anyway, you've been following this story, and I'm sorry to hear that it's already underway, but I sure would like to hear... Well, I'll recap real briefly what I saw today.
Fire away.
A 265-foot research vessel about 7 miles off the coast of the Big Island.
The boat is called the Corrie Chouest.
My question is, Navy boats are not Navy boats, Gray.
Usually.
This boat was a civilian boat.
It was bright orange and white.
It's a civilian research ship, yet there were Navy personnel with uniforms driving the boat and civilian scientists on board conducting the test.
So they were doing this together.
And what they have on this huge boat is a towed passive array.
They drop a two mile long Uh, line of microphones behind the boat to listen to the whales and all the sounds of all the animals in the ocean.
Okay, well that's passive.
They're not... That's passive.
Yeah.
Now, directly below the boat, they have a hole in the middle of the boat, and we went and watched this.
They call it, I believe, the moon hole or something.
300 feet down, they have huge speakers that came... I'm 6 feet tall, and they came up to about my waist.
Oh.
They're underwater, ceramic, speakers and they put out 195 decibels of low frequency sonar
waves.
So what they do is they have Navy personnel on top of the boat with binoculars and on
radios watching to see if there are any whales coming up and breaching and in the area.
They're listening to see what the whales do and then from time to time they blast out
this 195 decibel low frequency to see how that affects the whales.
Does it change the signature of the whale sounds?
Do they try to run away?
Do they breach?
Is any of their activity changed from what they feel is normal activity?
Alright, now... The reason they're... Hold on just one sec.
Let me interrupt you.
Again, going back to the interview I did in the last half hour.
Greg said nuclear submarines, on which he was A crew member.
Don't ping actively.
You know, submarines hide.
They don't give away their location.
But surface ships, he said, ping like crazy.
And he said he does nothing but listen to whales.
That's most of what he did in his job.
And anytime a surface ship would ping with a lot of power, the whale would take off like a bat out of hell.
Really?
Well, the reason the Navy is doing this testing is they have a new sonar system to detect very quiet submarines.
And apparently what they're doing is they want to get an environmental impact statement and find out how this system will affect whales.
My question is, I have two questions.
Who has submarines?
The Cold War is over.
Is not the Russian submarine fleet in mothballs?
And two, if they're telling us about something publicly and taking news crews out and showing them, isn't it 15 years out of date already?
Did they, uh, invite you out, or did you, uh... They invited us out, yes.
The Navy, uh, took us out, they said, here, they took us out on a Zodiac, they were very cordial and friendly and fed us lunch, and said, here's the boat, you may, there are no rules, you can shoot anywhere you want, you can talk to anyone you want, everyone's available for questions, tape as freely as you want.
Go, go for it.
And so you did that.
Yes, yes we did that.
Do you want me to... I have my report that played on our 6 o'clock news.
It starts up about 10 seconds into it.
I hit the record button on my VCR a little bit late, but I'll say that this is copyright material and you have to give courtesy to KITV News ABC affiliate Hearst Argyle TV in Honolulu, Hawaii.
Having said that, fire away.
You will hear some of the whale sounds You'll hear my voice with three interviews.
You'll hear the first one is Joe Johnson, who is the test director.
The next interview is Kurt Fristrup, who is a whale researcher from Cornell University, who's doing the research with the Navy.
The last interview is Michael Bailey, who is with Greenpeace, who is challenging this.
And let me get my sound up on my TV here for a second, and then I'll play this.
All right.
Well, that's a good balance.
We'll get to hear from everybody involved.
Yeah.
Here we go.
...coast sits about seven miles off Huaco on the Big Island.
Welcome to the ultimate whale-watching vessel.
I got a blue, top back, single whale.
On board, U.S.
Navy personnel keep a close watch for whales and other marine mammals.
Down below, in the high-tech operations center, they listen.
Scientists on board are trying to find out if low frequency sonar affects humpback whales.
The final goal is to deploy a new sonar system to track submarines.
The motivation for the Navy as far as the mission is an anti-submarine warfare detection system.
The idea here is we put out a signal, we process echoes back, and we can detect submarines at significantly long ranges.
Behind the ship, they tow several miles of underwater microphones.
Directly beneath the ship, 300 feet down, the underwater speakers.
This is what they look like.
They put out up to 195 decibels of sound.
Scientists say the sound dissipates rapidly in water and is only loud for less than a mile.
They listen to whales and emit the sonar.
The sonar is the low tone.
The higher tones are the whales.
Whales.
Animals naturally have highly variable patterns.
have highly variable patterns.
And what we have to do is to study them enough times under natural conditions, when we're not transmitting, and then again under transmission conditions, and see when you factor out all of the natural variability, if there's an offset in their behavior.
If, under the experimental conditions, they do something differently.
If the whales react, they stop the transmission.
Greenpeace claims Navy divers were injured by the same type of sonar.
We're concerned that the same Cold War technology is being inflicted upon the whales, Hawaii's whales, and that there's no way that these researchers can tell.
There is no way they can tell if a whale's experienced memory loss.
There's no way they can tell if a whale has a seizure.
There's no way they can tell if a female whale stops giving milk to its baby.
And that's the crux of our argument right now.
The testing will continue for the next three weeks until the end of March.
Then the data will be collected for an environmental impact statement.
Dick Allgaier, News 4, aboard the research vessel Cory Choas, off the Kona coast of the Big Island.
Okay, that was the report.
And again, that is copyright material from KITV-ABC, and courtesy has to be given to them.
Thank you, Bob.
Thank you, Dick, for that.
Greenpeace raised another interesting issue.
They say that they have documents released under the Freedom of Information Act that says Navy SEAL divers were injured by these very same frequencies.
That they testing divers subjected them to these frequencies and they had all kinds of memory loss and physical problems.
Really?
I got that late today and wasn't able to really check that out.
But I'll get some more information on that.
But basically what they're doing is They say they have a new sonar system to track very quiet submarines and they're
Testing it on whales to see how it affects whales.
Well, we just heard the Navy's obviously official position that why it's not allowed for more than a mile away.
And then we got the Greenpeace position as well.
I would really, the Navy is obviously not going to talk to me and tell me anything they didn't tell you.
However, I would like to hear from the Greenpeace folks.
Maybe if you have a contact with somebody in Greenpeace there, Who knows about this, Dick.
I'd like to pursue that.
And I have a 24-hour number.
I think I might have left that at the office.
Also, if you give me off the air, I could send a picture of the ship to you.
I took my own digital camera and took some pictures, which I've made into JPEGs.
Oh, Dick.
Absolutely.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Let's see, um, you know my email address, don't you?
Yes, if I send it to AOL, do JPEGs get turned, do you get them?
Yeah, if you're not, if you're not on AOL, are you on AOL?
No, I'm not on AOL.
Okay, then, um, what I, what I want you to do is, um, hmm, I'm, what I'm gonna do is put you on hold.
And try to get an email address for you, a separate email address.
Okay, can I say one thing really quick to people in Hawaii?
Every time I call into your show, I get calls for weeks at the station.
Please, people in Hawaii, yes, I'm an Art Bell fan too, and I'd love to talk to you, but I just don't have time.
Please don't flood calls to the I get so many calls from people.
They hear me.
Oh, Dick, you're an Art Bell fan.
I heard you on Art Bell, and they want to talk about this and that.
So, please, let me do my work.
I understand.
You're too popular.
Very kind of you, Dick.
Thank you so much, and I'm going to put you on hold, all right?
Okay.
All right, stand by.
That's Dick Allgaier in Honolulu, a reporter for KITV News, and you just heard a copyrighted report, and we have him to thank for that.
Um, what I'm going to do is stall for a second, play a commercial, and I'll be right back.
What we're going to do is pick up, uh, Peter Davenport at the bottom of the hour.
We're gonna play it kinda fast and loose tonight.
We've got plenty of time on radio, fortunately.
That's the thing about radio versus, uh, TV.
Um, we, uh, don't have to do things in, uh, one or two minute at best, uh, slice.
We can take time and sort of digest them slowly.
Um, Dick, thank you so very much, and thank you also KITV in Honolulu for allowing that to occur.
That was quite a report.
Boy, you could hear the low frequency blasting out, and you could hear the very high wail returns, which sound, you know, I'm not a wail listener, but they sounded, if I had to use a word, I would use the word distressed.
Now that's just a layman's uninformed reaction to what I heard.
Low sound, high distressed sound.
But maybe that's not true.
I am very interested in the Greenpeace allegation that these very same, and I had no idea it was 195 decibels, good lord, these very same sounds caused damage to Navy divers, human beings, memory loss.
And I would like to hear from somebody in Greenpeace, and I know they're listening in Hawaii, so if you are Greenpeace, please fax me a phone number, and I'll get you on the air.
My fax number is, and everybody else, please stop faxing me for a while so they can get through.
I'd like to hear from a marine biologist in Hawaii, or Greenpeace.
My fax number is area code 702727, 8-4-9-9-7-0-2-7-2-7-8-4-9-9.
One other story that I just got.
Scientists are scrambling to determine what killed hundreds of fish spotted north of the 520 floating bridge yesterday afternoon.
That's near Seattle.
The day after they began tests of powerful air guns used to detect hidden earthquake faults.
What?
Whether the fish kill and the air blast were related remains unclear.
The State Department of Fish and Wildlife fielded a handful of calls between 1 and 2 p.m.
and biologists on board a research vessel spotted large pockets of dead fish as well.
A state fish pathologist was expected today to recover some of the juvenile fish carcasses to determine what caused their death.
So we're monitoring all sorts of interesting Environmentally related worrisome stories and oh yeah, wasn't the Cold War over?
I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
AM 1500 KSTP The Talk Station, AM 1500 KSTP.
AM 1500 KSTP AM 1500 KSTP
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye on the Wild Card Line at Area Code 702-727-1295.
That's area code 702-727-1295.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
It is, and as soon as those photographs arrive to Keith, my webmaster, Keith Rowland, we're going to get them up for you.
Photographs, That Dick Allgaier took of a civilian ship staffed with both military and civilians, blasting away at whales and dolphins.
So we'll get those on the website, thanks to Dick Allgaier.
And of course, Keith Rowland.
That should be occurring, I would guess, within the next hour.
And that's just a guess.
In the meantime, we've got an update for you on many, many subjects coming from Seattle.
Uh, the UFO Reporting Center in Seattle, Washington.
And, uh, so that's coming up in a moment.
Look, we've got, uh... Alright, now comes Peter Davenport, Director of the UFO Reporting Center in Seattle, Washington.
Uh, with kind of an update for us.
Uh, Peter, welcome to the show.
Thank you, Art.
Good to be here.
Interesting night, uh, actually.
Uh, we've got kind of several... We've got several interesting, uh, stories we're following.
Particularly with respect to the whales.
Now, you and I did a story on the whales.
Well, on some whales.
And that was, I'm trying to think now.
Early February about, I think it was.
Roughly first week of February in any event.
Alright, and you've got some sort of correction I think you want to make on that.
Yeah, we've had a number of listeners who have sent us some very interesting emails.
And we may stand corrected on some of the things we represented about that.
They have pointed out to us that in point of fact only, it looks like, only two of those short finned pilot whales were flown 150 miles out to sea, not all 16 of them.
That makes a big difference in the expense of that project.
And the situation, the operation may not have been as large as the captions on those photographs, which you had on your website at one point I know.
The operation may not have been as large as we were thinking, I was thinking it was at the time.
We're going to post some news articles that one of the listeners dug out by doing a news search or news scan and we'll post them on your website or our website to try to close that issue off and provide some more information on it.
Apparently, even one of the U.S.
Senators from the state of Florida was involved in recruiting That is my opinion too.
fly those whales out into deep water.
So, well, it was nevertheless a mystery.
I mean, here you've got a black hawk helicopter dumping a very large mammal into the ocean
way the hell out at sea.
It was a genuinely good question.
And the photographs made it a very good question.
That is my opinion, too.
I am still intrigued by the photo.
I'm still intrigued by the fact that a number of military personnel were recruited to fly 150 miles out to sea, not in one, but in three helicopters.
By any measure, that's an unusual circumstance from my vantage point, but we'll put some more information out there.
We'll let the reader, the listeners, take a look at it and make up their own minds.
Alright, good.
Good.
What else seems to be going on?
Now, there's a gigantic flap going on down in Florida.
Just absolutely gigantic.
It's an interesting one, too.
Alright, tell us, update us on Florida.
Down in the Tampa area, what the heck went on?
What is going on?
To give our listeners a little rundown on how it all started, Saturday night our hotline in Seattle started lighting up from multiple points in the southern half of the Florida peninsula.
From Lake Okeechobee, that big lake down in the southern tip, from Tampa, from Fort Myers, from Sarasota, from Winter Park, from Valrico from Vero Beach and so on and so forth.
Callers from all over the state.
From the East Coast to the West Coast.
And they were all describing essentially the same thing.
Namely, two incredibly bizarre looking lights.
Intensely bright.
Some people describe them as diamonds.
They were so bizarre in their appearance.
Surrounded by big halos of condensation or some kind of Something that made the lights a little bit indistinct or soft, they described them.
Well, we took calls for about 24 hours.
In fact, we're still taking calls on that one.
Some of the eyewitnesses had them going to the southwest.
Some had them coming from the southeast.
Some people said they were distinctly going to the northwest.
Our initial impression was that the state of Florida had been covered by a couple of Very anomalous objects.
We had no idea what they were at the time.
Well, it was not until just yesterday afternoon.
Now, you're jumping ahead.
Somebody said flares first, didn't they?
Oh, yes.
And I have a couple very interesting audio cuts here that I think our listeners are going to enjoy.
It will give them some first-hand feeling for what we were dealing with Saturday night, and it was truly bizarre.
In fact, why don't I play a tape?
I can identify the caller in this one.
This is a very, very colorful gentleman from Okeechobee, Florida.
A man who's been a pilot for about 30 years of his life.
He flies warbirds, or used to, for what is known as the Confederate Air Force.
Those are the ladies and gentlemen who restore vintage military aircraft, bombers and fighters, and fly them at air shows all around the world now, actually.
They've been out to Bermuda, and I guess maybe even to Europe, and so on and so forth.
This guy is Colonel Danny Oaks.
He apprises me now that the only dogfighting he does now is with his golf game down in Florida.
He's turned into a golf pro, I guess.
But what I would like to do, Art, is play about a two-minute tape of what Colonel Danny Oaks had to report he saw that Saturday night from his home in Okeechobee, Florida.
And then, towards the end of this tape, he starts discussing Some of the information that was imparted to him by officials, and I think we're going to leave those officials unnamed for the time being.
I have no desire to embarrass or put any kind of pressure on these people.
You don't want anybody losing their job.
Exactly.
It's a very interesting tape and it's a A detailed description of what Colonel Danny Oakes saw from Okeechobee.
At first he thought the objects were coming from the southeast.
Turns out they were coming more like from directly from the east and that's significant.
All right.
And then we'll come back and I'll talk about some of the significance of this and the things we found out over subsequent days.
But here's Colonel Danny Oakes, Okeechobee, Florida.
It's about two minutes long or so.
All right.
In my yard and as I stepped outside, I could see coming towards us, it looked like out of the Vero Beach area, Fort Pierce area, coming basically from the east-northeast.
I could see two lights, and these were not like aircraft lights, they looked like diamonds.
If you look at a diamond, there's glitters and sparkles.
As they were coming towards us, they began to separate, and you could tell from just watching how very, very, very fast these things were moving.
The next thing we beheld is that they began to separate, and as they separated, You could see formations of them.
And then they come back together, and they're still coming towards us at a tremendous speed.
As they come towards us, they begin to move in another formation, like a diverse force vector, and then they move towards us.
And when they get almost as close as we can see them, they're no longer looking like diamonds, but they're looking like diamonds, but they're big as moons!
And they go immediately straight up!
I mean, they just disappeared.
It was absolutely astonishing.
I've been flying for 30 years.
I've seen every kind of rocket, every kind of missile.
Tired, air to air, ground to air, air to ground.
I've seen them explode.
This was not any kind of aircraft in this world.
I've never seen anything like it.
They recorded anything on radar?
And the man explained to me, he said, well, son, you don't really have to be worried about this.
This was an airplane shooting flares out of Petric Air Force Base.
So I'm thinking, this is totally ridiculous.
What I saw happen was no way a flare.
All right.
The typical flare, it's a flare, same story we got down in Phoenix.
Yeah.
And the interesting thing is that he was being told within minutes of the event that there were flares being fired in the middle of Lake
Okeechobee by US Air Force aircraft.
Now, no matter who it is, whether it's the military or any other officials,
that's a pretty quick decision for them to make.
It sure is.
Apparently they didn't have any fore-notice.
Well, it's probably flare story number seven.
They automatically issue flare story number seven.
They pull it off the shelf and there it is.
They use it.
But that was one of the first reports we received and he had these things going all over the sky and we had no, I had no idea at that time that within about 72 hours Another theory was going to start surfacing with regard to the alleged, and at this stage, Art, it's only alleged.
I say only because it appears if it's true that we are dealing with the U.S.
Navy and specifically a submarine, the silent service, and you never learn anything from those guys and gals, of course, for good reason, I guess.
I did have a sonar operator on here, and you're about to say they fired a couple of ICBMs, right?
Perhaps.
Perhaps.
All right.
Now, so it's flares to ICBMs.
Now, I had a submariner on here, a sonar fellow, who was on a nuclear fast attack sub.
He said, not a boomer, but he said they would not fire ICBMs from the east to the west over a continental landmass.
That is not something you would do.
Yeah.
And the direction that these objects were going, if they were ICBMs, the direction that they were going is still unclear to me for the following reason.
Yesterday afternoon, a newspaper in Bermuda, halfway across the Atlantic almost, published an article that they had been informed by some source that the U.S.
Navy had had a double Let's use our heads for a second, Peter.
of D-5 Triton missiles. These are the heavy missiles that are carried on boomers.
And that was the story that was released yesterday.
Alright, but let's use our heads for a second, Peter.
If you're off the coast of Florida, and you're going to fire test fires from ICBMs,
you're going to fire them in all likelihood either in a south and easterly direction,
or in an easterly direction from the Atlantic.
You're sure as hell not going to fire it in a northwesterly direction, which would carry it over the biggest part of the land mass of the U.S.
You just wouldn't do that, or at least I don't think you'd do that.
Or if you are doing that, you shouldn't be doing that.
I agree entirely, Art.
Now, if the missiles were fired to the southeast, or fired to the east, you could not have had the reports that you got.
That's right.
And I'm going to place a couple more here, if time permits.
Oh, it does.
And our listeners will fully understand the nature of the reports that we were getting about how these objects were clearly, without any doubt whatsoever, flying to the northwest or, alternatively, coming directly from the east towards the shore, the eastern shore of Florida, headed to the west.
In fact, Let me play a tape.
Yeah, please do.
Again, I say, folks, picture it in your mind.
Submarine, off the Florida coast.
Where do you fire an ICBM?
You fire it east?
Or you fire it southeast?
You don't fire it over the South American landmass.
You don't fire it over us.
And so, bear that in mind as you listen to the reports, like the one you just heard and the one you're about to hear, regarding what people saw.
Go ahead, Peter.
The next voice we'll hear is that of Mr. Danny Racine.
He's allowed us to identify him.
He lives in Vero Beach, Florida.
That's right on the east coast, north of Miami.
It's sort of northeast of Lake Okeechobee.
He and his wife live in a home there that is very, very close to the shore.
They were looking due east Saturday night, the 7th of March.
Due east.
And this is what Mr. Racine has to describe he and his wife witnessed.
Saturday night.
Here we go.
It's about, oh, a minute or a minute and a quarter.
Okay.
We both were pretty much going the same speed and direction.
We didn't, no sound was coming from the lights or anything.
And then the one on the right, the lower, the lower right hand side, it almost, it looked like it turned a little bit like a pivot, like a 90 degree pivot.
Going back to what you said, You think the objects were coming straight at you, and you're in Bureau Beach, correct?
Yeah, I'm very... North Indian River County.
Okay, and you think that the objects were coming directly at you at first?
Is that correct?
Yeah, they were heading in our general direction.
From the east?
From the east, they were coming at us, heading in a westerly direction.
Uh-huh.
So, can you tell me how much time it took for this object to make its change of direction of flight?
The pivot?
The pivot was more than more than a second.
It just kind of turned and was gone.
Okay.
And the second one continued at the same direction, the same speed, and that's what kind of freaked me out because it looked like it was something on an angle, you know, at about a 30 degree, and was coming straight at us because they were both moving the same exact speed, direction.
left, left a signature, and then the other one kept moving, kept moving for about 15
seconds, and that one did the same exact turn, and left the same exact sign.
So he is describing, Danny Racine in Vero Beach, Florida, looking east, is describing
two objects that, now they appear to be coming directly at him and his wife.
Now, parallax is a problem.
You can't tell whether a light is going directly away from you or directly at you.
We know that to be a problem.
However, he and his wife both described, and described emphatically, how one object suddenly,
in a second or less, and he said he thinks it was considerably less than one second,
did a right-angle turn.
Now ICBMs don't do that as far as I know.
As far as I know not either.
It raises some interesting questions of what we're working with.
Moreover, Peter, here's another thing.
If you're standing on the Florida shore, And even though, yes, I agree with you, there is a parallax problem, but as an object disappears toward the horizon, you're eventually going to have to turn around and face the direction that it's leaving as it gets to be a dot and smaller and smaller and smaller.
And I don't see why there would be a parallax problem.
In other words, if they were staring out to sea, they would see it disappearing out to sea, not coming over them and headed west.
Now, if the object is just rising vertically and at some distance from them, let's say 50 to 100 miles out to sea, I guess it is conceivable that the human visual system would register that the light is coming at them.
That is possible.
Maybe so.
but everybody on the western shore of florida reported that they were looking at these things as they
were flying from right that is to the north or to the northwest distinctly to the
northwest many people said
now the interesting thing about that is that the one witness who was quoted from bermuda in the
bermuda newspaper a chartered account that is a cpa
was standing on the shore of bermuda reportedly looking at this light display
with his binoculars he is looking to the west or perhaps to the southwest watching this
and he reports he's quoted to say in the newspaper that the lights were
moving from his right to the left that is from the western sky to the southwest
What I do not understand, and it doesn't make an ounce of sense to me, is how those lights viewed from Bermuda can be moving from right to left, and everybody over Florida is reporting that the objects are going to the northwest, that is, from their right to left.
Now, there's one interesting addendum to all of this art.
I've spent the last two days on long distance trying to resolve this apparent dilemma.
And I've run into some very, very interesting people who apparently occupy privileged positions with regard to information regarding events like this.
And I have what appears to me to be a reliable source to say, he has reported to me, that There was a military classified operation off the east coast of Florida Saturday night.
But he assures me that there is a serious time discrepancy between what happened over southern Florida Saturday night and the military operation.
Peter, I don't trust military sources worth a damn.
I had my one big sighting of this giant triangular thing that came over me.
The military said it was a C-130, Peter.
With flares on it, no doubt.
Well, they didn't use the flare story, but they said it was a C-130.
And I flew in those in the Air Force, and I assure you, I assure you, it was no C-130.
And I was embarrassed, in fact, by their cover story.
So, you know, maybe I'm getting cynical in my old age, but I'm not believing them.
I'm going to be talking about some of those triangles down in Phoenix at the end of this month.
There's a big powwow down there.
All right, as a matter of fact, let's do that when we get back from the break.
We're at the top of the hour right now.
That'll be fine.
All right, good.
Peter Davenport is with us right now from the UFO Reporting Center, the National UFO Reporting Center in Seattle.
And we will talk about much more right after the news.
We're also tracking this sonic testing that's going on in the world's oceans and had a remarkable report from Dick Allgaier in Hawaii.
So we'll pick up on that as well, and I'm wanting to hear from anybody, any Greenpeace person out there would like to follow up.
My fax number is 702-727-8499.
is 702-727-8499. This is Coast to Coast AM.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
If you have a fax for Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, send it to him at area code 702-727-8499.
702-727-8499.
Please limit your faxes to one or two pages.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Now, here again is Art.
Radio on the fly, as usual.
In about a half hour, we are going to make contact with Michael Bailey, Who is none other than the director of Greenpeace, Hawaii.
The very person who was interviewed by Dick Allgaier.
Allgaier.
I'm never going to get that right.
Sorry, Dick.
Regarding Navy SEALs subjected to sonar testing.
But we'll do that in about a half hour.
I tell you, at the time when I come on the air, I have no idea what direction the show is going to go.
And this is a prime example of it.
Now, back to Back to Seattle, Washington, and Peter Davenport and the UFO Reporting Center.
We were discussing the mixed-up situation in Florida, and we've got more.
Peter, welcome back.
Thank you, Eric.
You know, I'd like to, before we go on to other things, I'd like to report to our listeners a call we just took from Florida over the break.
This is fascinating.
A gentleman is listening to us there out in Sarasota.
His name is Mark.
He called to report what he had seen Saturday night.
And this is fascinating.
He's a gentleman who has a very good sense of angles.
Elevation left and right, degrees, and so on and so forth.
Sure.
He reported that what he saw Saturday night was two objects, both of which did the sudden right angle turn that we've heard from so many sources, which tends to militate against the missile launch, the ICBM theory.
Yes.
They did a sudden turn and they rose straight up in the sky.
We've heard this story many, many times.
We're now on the west coast of Florida.
And I asked him, how high up were they when they disappeared from sight?
They just winked out, Art.
I asked him, what was the angle of elevation you estimate you were looking at when you last saw these things on the west coast of Florida?
He said about 85 degrees.
I cannot make that compatible with a missile launch of two ICBMs.
I don't know if that's accurate or not, but I cannot imagine.
How missiles launched out of a submarine 200 miles east of Florida could be compatible with two objects doing a right angle turn over Sarasota, Florida on the west coast and then rising straight up until they're almost directly overhead.
The mystery is greater tonight than it was three days ago.
Boy, I'm glad I don't have your job.
I wish we could trade for a night art.
It is getting hard.
We're seeing this.
As I mentally go back through a number of serious cases we've had reported to us, it is beginning to come clear to me that oftentimes when we get what initially appears to be a bona fide UFO sighting, that is something truly anomalous that cannot be explained away, suddenly in a day or two or three, there is a plausible counter-explanation.
Now, in some cases, of course, that counter-explanation turns out to be the cause of the sighting.
There's no doubt about it.
Nine-tenths of the time that our telephone rings and somebody reports a UFO to us, it has nothing to do with those galactic ships, let's call them, that appear to come to this planet.
That is my opinion, anyway.
But it's that ten percent, and once in a while, there's a rush to judgment on the part of somebody to bring alternative explanations to some of these sightings to the fore, to apparently sort of roil the waters, muddy the waters.
Well, I am, I am suspicious of the immediate explanation of it was flares, and then, no, it wasn't flares, it was ICBMs launched offshore.
Yes.
Now, at the very least, to me, that implies Whenever you get any sort of a report, story number seven, give that one out, flares.
And then if that doesn't stick, we'll throw something up against the wall, something else.
Yes.
So I'm just getting very cynical and I can hear in the sound or the tone of your voice, you're beginning to get that way yourself.
It is driving me crazy.
Yeah.
Crazy.
Being inundated.
We're just being absolutely smothered.
with data and with responsibilities of one sort or another.
I hope those ladies and gentlemen who haven't heard back immediately to their e-messages
or their telephone calls will please understand that we're peddling just as fast as we possibly can.
We can't keep up with the data that's coming in here.
You probably have a similar problem down there in Pahrump.
I do.
I run this show by the seat of my pants, as you can tell by listening, as news breaks and I try to move from piece to piece to piece.
And that brings me to something I reported on before you got on the air.
Somebody just sent me this fax regarding air cannons.
Hey Art, I've been listening to Como TV, that's my affiliate up there, and the commentary they had yesterday about the air cannon trails to find earthquake stress points.
They are saying they can get seismic readings 20 miles below the Earth's surface and I just can't believe they don't think this is going to hurt the fish.
Now, You've just had a gigantic fish kill up there.
Coincidence?
Maybe.
But I remember, as this faxer does, you could throw an M-80 cherry bomb into the water, and fish for quite a distance would go belly up and be floating on the water.
Now, this is something that has occurred right next to you up there.
How far away from it are you?
I'm just about a mile from that fish kill in Lake Washington.
About a mile.
Well, I'm beginning to really worry about what we're doing.
This and, of course, the other story that we're tracking heavily on the whales and the sonar blasting and all the rest of it.
I'm beginning to wonder about wisdom in high places, Peter.
To my way of thinking, of course, each of us has his own or her own respective opinion on our government.
The question, your statement leads to a broader question and that is, what is our government doing to or for us?
Is it under control or is it not?
More and more I come up with the latter answer.
I think it's time for the American people to reconsider where they wish to go.
But this fish kill brings to mind the opening scene of the Crocodile Dundee Episode 2 movie with Paul Hogan sitting in his rowboat in an unspecified location, looks left, looks right, and then he lights a stick of dynamite and throws it into the water.
All the fish float to the surface.
Turns out he's just a mile off Wall Street, off the tip of New York.
It's one of the funniest scenes I think I've ever seen in a movie.
That's his style of fishing, and I have to admit that I've tried that a time or two in my own life.
Oh, I didn't want to ask, kid, but look, the last paragraph of this fact says, by the looks of those air cannons they showed on the news interview, it would make M-80s look like cap guns.
No wonder they have masses of fish showing up.
I'm sure the fish's brains are nothing more than pudding.
Yeah.
You know, one thing I would like to know about the tests taking place out in, uh, in Hawaii now is the frequency at which they are transmitting.
Well, it's low.
I mean, in Dick's report, you could actually hear The low frequency blast, and then the whale's answer was the higher frequency.
I'm tempted just before I put the fellow from Greenpeace on to call Dick back, and I'm... Yeah, Dick, I'm gonna call you, so get ready to play it again.
Because you could actually hear the low frequency blast, and then you could hear the whales... You know, I'm not used to listening to whales, but it sounded like a scream, a screech.
Yeah, to the human ear, I agree.
I did happen to hear that, and if we can...
If we can apply human experience to whale biology, it did appear that they were responding to those sounds.
There was no doubt about it.
Right.
So, I'm going to explore this one as much as I can.
What else do you have for us?
Well, I was going to comment about that boat.
I heard Dick Allgaier mention the name of that ship that he was on this morning.
The Cory Chuest, I think he called it.
We're about to get pictures on the website.
I recall, Art, that that ship was off the coast of Washington State and in fact off the coast of Alaska and Canada as well in the 1990-91 era.
And the reason I know that is I remember an article from our local newspapers here in Seattle of a very tragic accident that occurred on the decks of that ship.
Two Navy personnel were very badly injured.
I think maybe one of them was killed.
When a very powerful explosive went off prematurely on deck, what they were doing was going up and down the coast of the North American continent, setting off explosives and contouring, or mapping, some of the rifts and rills and valleys underwater.
The reason the Navy has to do that, allegedly, is to have very accurate underwater maps So they can detect anomalous objects, that is, submarines hiding down in those crevasses.
Right.
But the interesting point, the reason I raise this is that it was at about that time that it was noted that the large populations of sea lions were being decimated for reasons that are not well understood, or they weren't back in 1990 or 91.
They may be now, but I always wondered whether that mapping project From the tip of Barrow, Alaska down to I presume Oregon and California might have been having some effect on sea lion populations.
I've spent a lot of time aboard fishing vessels, and sea lions love nothing more than to follow ships.
Right.
They pick up a lot of dead fish off of them.
It's an easy meal.
Oh, there's no question about it.
And dolphins do the same thing.
They'll be seen leaping out in front of them sometimes, or following in their wake, which stirs up a lot of little sea creatures that they can eat.
But this blasting, plus, you know, too many beachings lately.
Too many unexplained beachings.
The story always ends by saying scientists are puzzled.
They don't understand what's going on.
Well, I don't think you've got to be a rocket scientist to finally discern if we're exploding things in the water, if we're blasting them with 195 decibels.
Maybe that's the reason.
Now, maybe it isn't, but maybe it is.
Yeah, could be.
There are a lot of variables here.
I think it's important to keep in mind, however, that the beaching phenomenon of cetaceans goes back many thousands of years.
It absolutely does, but there's been too many lately.
Yeah, there's been a lot of them.
They seem to run in cycles, and they seem to run in certain areas of the world.
It remains a mystery, and it's a very interesting one to me.
I don't think we're any closer to understanding why those creatures Commit acts of self-immolation by swimming up on beaches.
We're no closer to it than we were at the beginning of science.
Well, now I don't know what he's going to say, and I can't speak for him, but I've got this green piece fellow coming on here.
And he is indicating that these same sound experiments were done on some Navy divers who became confused, had short-term memory loss, And there's not a whole lot of difference between human beings and whales in terms of effects on their brain and so forth and so on.
If it can do that to navy divers, if in fact it did, it can certainly do it to whales.
Yes.
One thing we know, I have read, I'm not a specialist in this field, but I've done a great deal of reading in it, we know that low frequency sound can have some very unexpected and bizarre effects on the human organism.
It's the worry of harp.
Yes.
And there's no reason to believe, I agree with you entirely, that if it has a biological effect on an animal our size, I would not be surprised if it would affect cetaceans in a similar fashion.
I think it's a reasonable suspicion.
Certainly we should prove that it's not the case before we go booming the oceans.
And we do it just the opposite way.
Even with the Cold War over, here we are doing all of this work Ostensibly to find ultra-quiet submarines that are supposed to be generally dry docked back in Russia.
I don't know.
You know, I know the Chinese are out there, but I don't think they've got ultra-quiet anythings.
It does make you wonder what they're hunting for.
There's no doubt about it.
It really does.
Anyway, anything else that you want to get out tonight?
A couple other things I'd like to talk about.
I mentioned that I'm going to be speaking down in Phoenix for about a year, Art.
I have hankered to present my data on the sightings over Arizona on the 13th of March last year, and it looks like I'm going to have an opportunity to do that.
There is a one-day powwow that is being planned down in Scottsdale.
I think it's at the Holiday Inn Sunspree, if I'm not mistaken, on the 29th of March.
That's a Sunday night, 6 p.m.
to 11.
I'm going to be there.
Colin Andrews, apparently specialist on crop circles, of course, is going to be there.
Wonderful speaker.
Travis Walton, Jim Delitoso, perhaps other speakers as well.
And I'm really looking forward to this one.
Let me just say that if there's still anyone out there that thinks that what happened over Arizona at between 8, 16 p.m.
and about 9 o'clock on the 13th of March can be ascribed to military flares, If you'd like to know the real story, come to that powwow and look at the slides I have, look at the data I have, and I think they'll walk away with a different opinion.
I understand that if they're interested in getting tickets, they can call, I think it's in Scottsdale, area code 602-704-1040.
I think it's Vision Quest Enterprises.
I think it's Vision Quest Enterprises.
That's 602-704-1040.
Okay.
They can get tickets.
One other thing I'd like to talk about, which is rather interesting, you may have seen the
news reports about this, is the alleged meteor shower over Northern California.
I saw zillions of reports out of the San Francisco area.
We got a lot of them too, and one thing that I feel the news reports missed that we picked up on the hotline is the fact that that shower, from our vantage point anyway, I'm not sure we have all the data, I'm not sure all of our data is correct, but From our vantage point, that meteor shower over California lasted for six hours.
What?
We got reports of the same thing occurring as late as 2.30 a.m.
on Sunday night.
And, in point of fact, we got calls during Dreamland.
We got a couple of young women who were driving down out of the mountains who saw a huge, huge blue-green light come down But there were still reports of events taking place at 2.30 in the morning.
Peter, we need to spend a couple of more minutes on that because it's important.
So stay there.
I'll come back to you after the break.
Very well.
Peter Davenport from the UFO Reporting Center in Seattle.
I'm Art Bell.
Well this is Coast to Coast AM.
I'm going to be singing a song called, I'm going to be singing a song called,
Good morning.
Once again, I want to finish up elegantly if I can with Peter Davenport at the UFO Reporting Center in Seattle.
Peter, I too received, just was inundated with these remarkable faxes from people in the Bay Area who saw this.
And you know, I want to back it up by saying astronomers don't seem to have a clue About why we're having, after all, there was Greenland, now they think they may see from the air where that thing has impacted, whatever it was, the one over El Paso, the meteor shower recently over the Bay Area, Georgia, I'm hearing again and again and again, meteors everywhere, and I don't think they know why.
Yeah, that's my impression from our vantage point up here in Seattle to our We're getting these calls all the time.
Certainly.
We're quick to recognize, I'm sure.
The Earth is struck by about 10 to the 12th power meteors every day.
There's no doubt about it.
The overwhelming majority, however, are smaller than the grain of sand.
But we're getting a lot of reports.
I don't pretend to understand what's going on, but I couldn't agree more with your statement We're getting a lot of reports about really anomalous lights at night.
We had a good one over Washington State just about 15 months ago.
It was December 17th.
And what very few people understand is that five minutes or so after those objects went from east to west over the state of Washington, they were seen going west to east just south of Portland.
We got the call two and a half days later.
I remember that.
I believe the astronomer said space junk.
Yeah, that's exactly what they said.
And the fact of the matter is that if a person is in mainstream science with a career to worry about, a job to worry about, and so on, they cannot say, if there's something in the atmosphere that's fast and bright, they cannot say that it's anything but a meteor.
It's that simple.
But we're getting calls that suggest, to me anyway, That there's something very unusual about some of these lights that are being seen.
I guess they haven't tried the fast flare story yet, huh?
Many of these things are reported to us to appear to the observer to be traveling more or less horizontally.
Now that's not impossible for a meteor by any means.
But we're getting a lot of calls like that.
That seems to me, from a statistical point of view, that seems to be a very unusual phenomenon.
As a matter of fact, a large object can even enter the atmosphere, spend a little time in, and go right out again.
The one you want to worry about is the one coming in 2028 that we just discovered tonight.
This one, this baby, 1997 XF-11, is one mile wide and may hit Earth.
That would be a good one.
It would be a big one.
I don't know about good.
One thing I'd like to leave you with.
Yes.
We have had now three reports.
We've heard a lot about these storms all over the country.
We've now had three reports, the most recent one from down in New Mexico, of people standing looking at these storm cells, huge, big, towering, cumulus clouds, and watched ships, disks come out of them like a streak and go right
back into them.
Whether these stories are true or not, of course we may never know.
But we've now had three just in the last two or three weeks and they seem to come from
sources that are independent of one another.
The sources seem good to me.
I don't know what to make of it, Art.
I oftentimes find myself in a position of reporting information that is uncorroborated
and I don't understand it, but I think it is nevertheless my responsibility to report
That's what you're there for.
Peter, um, would you please give out the reporting number?
Yes.
You've got a phone there, and if somebody sees something they don't understand, gets video, photographs, whatever, there is a number.
What is it?
Uh, the National UFO Reporting Hotline for UFO Reports is area code 206.
722-3000.
And again, we're having to ask people to try to limit their calls from 8 a.m.
to midnight.
That's two workdays every 24-hour period.
Right.
We're just being inundated with calls and data from 8 a.m.
Pacific Time to midnight Pacific Time, if they would.
And let me give out our address, if I may, to most of all the website address.
We're trying to post our data.
We just updated it recently.
It's one of those easy-to-remember website addresses.
It's simply www.ufocenter.com.
All right.
And we, of course, have a link on our site.
People can get our information there.
Peter, thank you so very much.
It's been a pleasure, Art.
It always is.
Strange times.
Take care, my friend.
Thank you very much.
All right.
That's a good night.
That's Peter Davenport at the UFO Reporting Center in Seattle.
Now, We played a report.
Actually, I began talking earlier about these.
I've been just getting buried in faxes and email about what I thought was an experiment that was about to get underway.
Boy, was I wrong.
Boy, as a matter of fact, let me read this to you.
One report.
By Anthony Sommer.
ATOC researchers testing the effect of low frequency sound on humpback whales in deep water off Kauai Put a big distance between themselves and the U.S.
Navy project testing low frequency sonar off the Big Island.
Several environmental groups went to U.S.
District Court in Honolulu today, which may have been yesterday, hoping to win an injunction halting the Navy test scheduled to begin Wednesday.
So, I'm a little unclear Dick Allgaier, who faxed me, who is a reporter for KITV News in Honolulu, and he very generously played a copyrighted report for us, he's about to repeat it right now, of exactly what these sounds are like and how the whales responded.
I want you to listen to this very, very carefully.
We're going back to Dick, who spent a full day on the ship, and listen folks, This is not being fought out in court.
This is going on right now because Dick was there today on the ship.
And by the way, we now have the photographs.
Thank you very much, Dick.
Post it on the website so you can go see the ship that Dick is reporting on right now.
Dick, welcome back.
Yeah, that court case you were talking about was last week.
Last week, alright.
When they're talking about Wednesday, they're talking about last Wednesday.
They challenged this, the judge ruled that it could go on, and this testing started last
week and is going to go on for three more weeks.
Before we get to the whales, can I ask you a quick question, Art?
Of course.
You're there alone, right?
Absolutely.
I've just sent a couple of faxes and called one person and listened to your show, and
I can't keep up with you.
You're doing commercials, checking faxes, checking the time, queuing up and playing
bumper music, following the internet, calling five people, running the board, and doing
interviews on the fly.
No.
You do all that?
I do.
That's one broadcaster to another.
You're pretty amazing.
Thank you, my friend.
I do that because I have always done it, Dick, and now I don't know how to do it any other way.
If I had a producer doing things for me, I don't think I'd... This way, I know what's going to happen, when it's going to happen.
I arrange it, even if I'm going nuts.
You must have so much adrenaline after the show, you must not sleep for hours.
I do.
Is it like that for TV reporters?
Yes, I have a hard time getting to sleep on a good night when there's news happening.
Alright, so this thing has been going on now for a week, and you were on the ship today.
Yes, first let me say that when you hear these whale songs, I'm not sure It's fair to say that the whales are distressed, because as the scientists told me, and it's your criticism of TV, it's so short, it's short sound bites.
Yeah.
And the scientists explained to me, and I did not play this in my report, that whales are very active creatures, they make a lot of noise, they sing, they interact, they talk to each other, they swim back and forth.
So when you hear them, that's normal for them?
Well, I'm just a layman, but it sounded awfully high-pitched, and to the layman's ear, it sounded distressed.
I mean, it came right after the low-frequency blast, so that just was my take.
Michael Bailey at Greenpeace, when you get him on, may have something to say about that.
All right.
When you hear my report and I say, here are the low sounds and the high sounds, the low sound, and it sounds very much like a whale, the sonar that they're putting out goes like this, it goes...
Ooooooooh. Right. Ooooooooh. And over that you'll hear the higher, ooooh, ooooh, of the whale. Should I play that now?
Um, well just replay the whole report. Yeah, okay, I need to turn my TV up. It's on my VCR here, Seinfeld. Okay, here
it goes.
And this is the better part of my report. Alright, fire away.
Larry Toad sits about seven miles off Puako on the Big Island. Welcome to the ultimate whale watching vessel.
On board, U.S.
Navy personnel keep a close watch for whales and other marine mammals.
Down below, in the high-tech operations center, they listen.
Scientists on board are trying to find out if low-frequency sonar affects humpback whales.
The final goal is to deploy a new sonar system to track submarines.
The motivation for the Navy as far as the mission is an anti-submarine warfare detection system.
The idea here is we put out a signal, we process echoes back, and we can detect submarines at significantly long ranges.
Behind the ship, they tow several miles of underwater microphones.
Directly beneath the ship, 300 feet down, the underwater speakers.
This is what they look like.
They put out up to 195 decibels of sound.
Scientists say the sound dissipates rapidly in water and is only loud for less than a mile.
They listen to whales, then emit the sonar.
The sonar is the low tone.
The higher tones are the whales.
Whales sound.
Animals naturally have highly variable patterns.
And what we have to do is to study them enough times under natural conditions, when we're not transmitting, and then again under transmission conditions, and see when you factor out all of the natural variability, if there's an offset in their behavior.
If, under the experimental conditions, they do something differently.
If the whales react, they stop the transmission.
Greenpeace claims Navy divers were injured by the same type of sonar.
We're concerned the same Cold War technology is being inflicted upon the whales, Hawaii's whales, and that there's no way that these researchers can tell.
There is no way they can tell if a whale's experienced memory loss.
There's no way to tell if a whale has a seizure.
There's no way they can tell if a female whale stops giving milk to its baby.
And that's the crux of our argument right now.
The testing will continue for the next three weeks until the end of March.
Then the data will be collected for an environmental impact statement.
Dick Allgaier, News 4, aboard the research vessel Cory Choas off the Kona coast of the Big Island.
And again, Dick, you found it rather unusual to see a civilian ship with Navy personnel mixed in.
Well, I don't know.
I was never in the Navy.
I've never seen To me, a Navy ship is a gray ship with Navy personnel in Navy uniforms and there were both on board.
There were civilians and Navy.
Now, I should say that they pointed out that the sounds were 155 decibels under the boat and that sound does not propagate well in water and that eight-tenths of a mile away It drops off to a very... Now, you used that 155.
Did you mean 195?
Well, the top... That's the most they've ever put out is 195.
I see.
Alright.
Today, when they were testing, they said it was around 155.
That it was 155 decibels at 8 tenths of a mile.
They also claim that if whales are close, or if they react, they stop.
So they watch.
If they see a whale 100 yards away, they immediately stop the test.
Let me tell you an interesting question that was asked by another reporter.
And this was not on camera, but as we were kind of packing up, a reporter from another TV station said, do you think if we were in a war situation and the U.S.
were tracking hostile subs, that we would give a damn about some whales?
And the Navy said, well, in a war situation, hmm.
Couldn't answer that one.
They didn't answer that one.
Well, they can't.
The answer is no.
Well, you know, if they were trying to protect our country... Yeah, I understand.
Even I understand that.
Even I understand that.
But, you know, we're not at war.
At least I haven't noticed.
And these experiments, I believe... What was the argument?
I guess I'm going to hear that in a few minutes from Greenpeace.
Well, yeah.
What the scientists... Now, the civilian scientists on board the ships said This is a great opportunity for them to see how sound affects whales.
The civilian said if the technology that civilian scientists had in order to test sound on whales, you know, the speakers that they have available to them, they would have to drop them on top of the whales to get that level of sound.
So they feel it's a great opportunity to use all this high-tech stuff provided by the Navy to see how whales react.
And they claim that they're doing this to protect whales and see how whales They're trying to protect whales.
Is that right?
That's the line that they say.
Now, you're going to get a different view from Michael Bailey of Greenpeace, I suspect.
Protect whales.
Very interesting.
Again, I hearken back to the first hour, and I had a submariner on, a fellow who was a sonar operator on a nuclear sub, and he said, what baloney?
He said, I spent all my time Listening to whales and dolphins.
And he said, whenever there's active pinging of sonar going on, the whales beat feet.
He said they generally like to just sort of go along in a straight line and feed.
But the moment there's active loud pinging, generally from surface ship, not subs, the whales take off like crazy.
Well, pinging is one thing, and this low frequency may be another, because the scientists on board today told us That they could see no real change in the whales activity.
That they were singing and going along their merry way and doing their whale things.
And that they didn't really notice that much of a change.
Now, they would not say categorically that it didn't have any effect.
They said, well, we need to analyze our data.
They said that we need to look at the whales with no sounds and see how they react.
Then play the sounds and see how they react, and they need to go analyze that and then get their environmental impact statement.
All right.
We have three photographs that you kindly supplied over the last hour, now on the website.
Tell people what's up there.
The first is the research vessel, the CORYCHOEST.
C-O-R-Y-C-H-O-U-E-S-T.
It is named after the Choist family, which is a family that I believe provided the ship.
So it was named after this donor, the Choist.
That's the name.
It's a research vessel.
It's an orange and white ship.
It was seven miles off the coast of Kona on the Big Island.
We took a Zodiac boat out to it.
I used my own digital camera to take a picture of it as we approached.
And that's what's on the website.
Yeah, the second picture is we pulled the Zodiac up to the side of it and had to climb
up a rope ladder as personnel from the boat were looking down.
So you can see someone in a Navy uniform and some other people that were helping us aboard.
Right.
I think the third picture is me in a life jacket looking over the edge.
All right, but it gives people a sense of where you were and where this ship is that
is doing all this.
It's a beautiful day.
I'm really sunburned.
I didn't know Hawaiians could get sunburned.
I heard you last night with the problems in the Midwest and it's 82 degrees out here.
I bet that was something to listen to back there.
You know what?
I used to live on the mainland where it was cold and snowy, and I got fed up with it and moved out here.
And when I see video like that, I just... I can't believe that it's real time.
It looks to me like that must be videotape of another winter, because it couldn't be like that now.
You remind yourself of why you moved to Hawaii.
Right.
Alright, I want to remind everybody that was copyrighted material provided through the kindness of an employee of KITV who you're listening to, Dick Allgaier.
And so I want to thank you and I want to again thank KITV in Honolulu.
And it will be interesting to hear.
I wasn't able to interview Michael Bailey.
I was out on the ship.
They whisked us out.
Yeah.
And then I had to get back and catch a plane from Kona to Honolulu to meet my deadline.
I never talked to the other side.
So another reporter at KITV interviewed Michael Bailey.
All I got was a soundbite from him.
So I never really talked to him in depth.
And I'll be eager to hear what he says.
Coming up next.
Thanks, Dick.
Thanks, Art.
Bye.
You take care.
Stay right there, folks.
the from k i t v news in honolulu and his report
on what the navy and apparently some civilians are doing off the coast of the big island
Now, toward the end of that very dramatic report, you heard Michael Bailey, who is the director of Greenpeace in Hawaii, I just happen to have him right here.
Michael, welcome to the program.
Thank you very much there, Art.
I guess that you were also out.
Were you on the ship as well?
I was not on the Navy vessel.
I don't think the Navy has an invitation to Greenpeace Hawaii or the other people involved with this program to help save the whales, because we're the ones that have been protesting it and working to have it stopped.
Normally, you guys are hanging off other parts of the vessel.
That's quite true, Art.
Even in past years, myself, I've directed rubber rafts in front of Russian harpoon boats, trying to stop them from saving the whales.
So, the U.S.
Navy is very well familiar with our tactics.
Okay.
Michael, what are they doing out there?
What do you know about it?
Just lay it out for us.
Well, we have here, Art, we have a Cold War technology being used against the whales, the dolphins, and the marine life off the Hawaiian Islands.
Not only has it been used against marine life, but it's also been used against human life.
There's ample evidence that the United States Navy has conducted tests of these low-frequency sound waves upon human beings, Navy SEALs, Navy divers, and they've actually experienced permanent nerve damage, permanent loss of memory in certain areas of their brain, as well as other physical ailments.
And we believe that these Cold War experiments being conducted in a nursery, in basically a whale birthing
ground for a critically endangered species, is absolutely foolish and should stop immediately.
Now, you said Navy SEALs, Navy divers have experienced nerve damage, permanent and memory loss. What evidence do
you have of that, Michael?
There has been some documents that have been made available courtesy of the Freedom of Information Act.
One such document, for example, is titled Exposure Guidelines for Navy Divers Exposed to Low-Frequency Active Sonar.
It was conducted out of the University of Texas at Austin, as well as the Submarine Medical Research Laboratory in Gorton, Connecticut, which is, of course, the electric boatyard where nuclear submarines are made.
And these experiments Show that U.S.
Navy SEALs, Navy divers, were experienced to these sounds and they experienced dizziness, somnolence, inability to concentrate, tingling in their arms.
Some of them, definitely at least one of them, and we think actually more, actually received seizures.
They experienced seizures and are being treated nowadays with antidepressant and anti-seizure drugs.
And we're actually trying to find these individuals.
We know these reports were made public to a certain level.
A lot of the reports have been made confidential, top secret by the Navy.
They have not released the names of these individuals who they subjected to these tests.
We're trying to find them now.
Holy smokes!
And so, if that can be done to a human with, I assume, similar low-frequency decibel sounds, is that accurate?
That is correct.
Similar sounds at a much lower intensity.
The intensity of this experiment, when it finally gets fully cranking, will be literally hundreds of thousands of times louder than that experienced by those divers.
Do you know when, in other words, how is the experiment due to expand eventually, you say, hundreds of thousands of times more?
Actually, yes, Art.
Hundreds of thousands of times more.
When this experiment goes full blast, and that's literally the term for it, full blast, when they finally actually activate the sonar array that they're trying to construct now, all the oceans of the world can become one giant sound uh... fear in effect that one of affecting all the world's
oceans not perhaps just the whale for dolphins for example but fisheries
and marine life throughout the depths of the seas and even human life that
happens to be in contact with the ocean or even those that may be living
near shore because these sound waves can penetrate it through rocks. Now I
understand Michael that we have a need for national security and I suppose we
have to even be able to find quiet submarines but last time I heard in
Washington they're saying the cold war is over.
What are we doing?
Actually, to the closest that we've been able to determine, this appears to be a massive pork barrel project.
We've been informed that the, as Dick Oligar mentioned, the Chwist family and perhaps some other shareholders involved with this vessel, this contract vessel, have been perhaps involved with political fundraising and other such things in the U.S.
mainland.
We believe this is a massive pork barrel project that's trying to be a subsidy for Cold War technologies that are simply no longer needed.
It is known, for example, that last year alone, 1996, the United States spent over $150 million paying Russians, paying Russian workers to dismantle their submarines and ICBMs.
We actually think that's the best way to go, and this is actually a waste of public's money.
So it's one of those things that when the momentum gets going and the bureaucrats get hold of it, it just keeps going under its own power, kind of?
Under its own power and because there's lots of money being splashed around in it at the present time.
And it's very unfortunate that's the situation, but it really is.
What is the state now of whales and dolphins around the world?
I know that your organization, Greenpeace, monitors this very carefully because people are hunting them and all the rest of it.
We're blasting them.
How are they doing?
Overall, the whales and dolphins are hanging in there, but quite honestly, by and large, are often going down in numbers.
Not just due to the fact that they were depleted so heavily due to whaling and due to, in the case of dolphins, due to fisheries on species such as tuna, but also due to chemical contamination, PCB, DDT, mercury, Recent studies indicate there's very high levels of premature abortion, actually, of baby dolphins and whales that may be caused by PCB, DDT, mercury contamination.
And now with active sonar now being brought to bear and other sonic technologies, we have concerns that these may also have a strong negative impact upon these endangered populations.
There have, for thousands of years, been beachings of whales.
However, In the last year or so, it seems like there's been a very unusual number of big beaching recently in South America.
I think in Venezuela.
Do you all have any hint of what's going on?
It's almost like they're leaping out of the ocean.
Yes sir, I've actually been involved quite a bit with marine mammal strandings.
In 1979 I directed a rescue effort to help 41 giant sperm whales, which were 41 foot long whales that beached along the coast of Oregon.
I've been involved with other things along those lines and been studying the issue of stranded whales.
There's indeed a number of perhaps geophysical anomalies such as twisted magnetic fields or
gently sloping beaches or whatever that may result in a few mass strandings or a few strandings,
but the most recent research being conducted indicates in many cases, for example, off
of Florida, there's been red tides caused by pig effluent being put into the ocean.
There's toxic chemicals, as well as these sonic experiments.
We do know there's been acoustic experiments being conducted for well over 20 years in
the oceans, and it's just now starting to come to light exactly what might be happening.
You're aware, I'm sure, of the Fisteria problem coming out of the North Carolina estuaries
and actually moving into the Atlantic now.
Yes, indeed, and that Fisteria, which is, of course, pig awful, is also thought to have caused red tides and dolphin deaths and fish die-offs along that coastline.
You're talking to me about Navy divers and seals with permanent damage from this now.
When you do talk to authorities, I don't even know if they privately don't even talk to you, but do you present them with this kind of information and say, look, if this can happen to humans and it can do this to human brains, then why is it not reasonable to assume that this kind of sonic blasting Uh, is going to affect and damage or hurt whales?
That's a very good question, Art.
Why is it that people within authority don't listen to what seems to be common sense for everyone else?
I mean, they won't even talk to you or what?
Well, uh, they simply say, well, they were able to research it and find that at a certain level, indeed, human beings can experience nervous disorders and can experience memory loss and can perhaps experience seizures, but they're now being very cautious after they subject these poor individuals to these tests.
and that somehow that they are able to determine how a whale behaves, for example, when subjected
to these sonic tests.
Realistically, there's no way a human being at this point in time in our evolution can
understand the mind and the thoughts of a giant humpback whale.
I had in the first hour a very interesting gentleman who was a sonar operator on a nuclear
submarine.
He said he spent most all of his time listening to whales and dolphins.
That's what he did.
Rarely would they encounter another submarine.
So he said he knows an awful lot about whales that nobody else seems to know.
He said, look, submarines don't actively radiate sonar.
They hide.
That's what submarines do.
They hide.
It is the surface chips that blast tremendous amounts of sonic energy into the water.
And he said, Whales, for the most part, take a straight line, and they feed.
You know, they don't want to be bothered.
They're just kind of moving along in a straight line, and they're feeding.
And when a surface ship would ping very hard, it would cause the whale to immediately take off like a bat out of hell.
Yes, indeed.
Undoubtedly, that would be the case.
That would be the case.
Because, recognize sonar, whales themselves, many species of whales, the deep diving whales, like the sperm whales with the teeth, or even the orca whales that we see at the SeaWorld, and that sort of thing, and even dolphins, how sonar themselves and their sonar is even much more advanced than the
technology being conducted by human beings.
And they're very sensitive to sound in the ocean.
They're acoustic creatures.
They see with sound the way that we see with light.
And when you send off a sonar beam into the ocean, it's like flashing light bulbs into their eyes, and they do
want to leave the area.
Now, he also said that dolphins, for example, use sonar to stun small fish prey that they're going to eat
as prey.
Is that true, to your knowledge?
Yes, it is.
And it's not just dolphins, but as well as orca whales, the killer whales have been known to do that with salmon, as well as even sperm whales.
the giant sperm whales of Moby Dick fame are thought to use that same stunning mechanism
to feed on giant squid which may get up to be 100 feet in length in the ocean's depth.
And actually the toothed dolphins and whales that use this technology somehow are able
to send a sonic beam that goes forward and it sounds sometimes even like a shotgun shot
for example in the case of the larger mammals, a small explosion, and they stun their prey
and go up there and suck it into their mouth like spaghetti or whatever.
They don't really have to grasp it sometimes.
They can use their sonic technology that's been developed within their own bodies to
help find their prey.
So then this is a basic sound, is a very basic part of their entire life.
We could think of it that way.
In the water, they live by, they hunt by, they communicate by, it's thought.
As a matter of fact, this technology, this very low frequency sound, is based upon studies that the Navy has conducted on how whales talk to each other.
It's been known that a blue whale can talk to another blue whale as far as 500 miles away in the ocean depths.
Using these deep water channels called the sound channels, which are a couple of thousand feet below surface level.
And these cells will travel for hundreds, perhaps even thousands, at least hundreds of miles in the ocean depth.
And the Navy has studied this for decades and is now trying to replicate it somewhat with this new technology.
Alright, so here we are lowering these gigantic acoustic speakers deep into the water.
And blasting as much as 195 decibels at this point of the experiment, if whales can hear each other that far away, then you may have heard Dick say the Navy told him no problem after a mile they didn't even hear it.
Of course, after a while they can't hear it.
That's not what they say, but that's not true.
These whales have got very sensitive hearing in the ocean, much better than our own.
Recognize that what's actually happening off the Big Island of Hawaii right now, off the Kona side, is they have a ship, and they're transmitting these sonar beams into the water's depths and the depths of the ocean.
And what they're trying to say is that if the whales instantly change direction, if they instantly alter their course, Well, a couple of things here.
One is that sound, especially low frequency sound, when it's transmitted in the ocean, often is very difficult to tell what direction it came from.
The human being cannot tell.
Our ears cannot tell in the ocean what direction sound is coming from.
On surface we can, but because sound moves so quickly through water, it's a dense medium, we don't get this stereophonic effect like we do in the air.
Well, the same thing may be with the whales.
They may not necessarily even know the direction of this sound.
And unfortunately, in the case of the Navy research, they really aren't even studying what the long-term effects are that are happening upon the whales in the area.
we report just uh... two days ago from a good group of independent researchers
called from the ocean mammal institute pennsylvania they observed a baby whale adjust a small juvenile fourteen
foot baby whale no more than a month old
it had been separated from its mother it was breaching frantically swimming around in circles
a very unusual anomaly i've been on the water here in hawaii for
for over ten years regularly for days and days and other researchers
never heard of such a thing baby whales and mother whales stick to each other like glue
because there's tiger sharks out here and they know it and those whales, those little baby whales that was alone
and these navy researchers didn't even see it Greenpeace knew the tests were coming.
I presume you tried some legal maneuvering to stop it.
here that they are really reporting properly.
Alright, well you knew these tests were coming, Greenpeace knew the tests were coming, I presume
you tried some legal maneuvering to stop it.
What happened there?
There has been a case filed, attempts to be filed anyway, in federal court here in Honolulu
courtesy of the Earth Justice Legal Defense Fund and it's been filed before the federal
courts on the grounds that what's been happening here with U.S.
Navy test is a violation of U.S.
federal law.
That they're violating the environmental laws, they're not conducting an environmental impact statement, and that what's happening here It should be stopped in the ground that it's a violation of US law and they should go through certain steps and protocols to ensure the safety of the environment and especially a critically endangered species like the humpback whale.
You're such an advocate for marine life.
Why do you think instead of always being contentious, they don't approach you and make you part of this so that you can understand it, advise, whatever?
I would think because if it really gets out as to how dangerous this is to whales, dolphins, and the ocean environment in general, that the public outcry would simply shut it down.
I think they picked the Big Island, the west coast of the Big Island, because it's a pretty isolated part of the world to conduct these experiments.
They probably thought they could just sort of hide away in an unknown corner of the planet and conduct their There's silly war games against the whales.
Well, of course, we here at Greenpeace Hawaii, which is based on the Big Island, we were here on hand as well as a lot of other local conservationists and fishermen and others, part of the community, and we've been taking a stand to have this thing stopped.
Alright, you've got a website and I think we've got a link up.
it's uh... each ttp colon forward slash forward slash greenpeace
h are dot or what do you need to talk to that is that correct that's
corrected uh...
each ttp each ttp poll
each ttp people flashbacks
greenpeace g r e e n p e a c e h i
in hawaii i a m h a w a i dot net and uh... what it would have been up there
We've got there a variety of reports.
One of the reports came down recently from a Greek scientist who studied NATO exercises, North Atlantic Treaty Organization naval exercises in the Mediterranean Sea, and found a link between those exercises and whale strandings off the coast of the Greek islands.
There's also some other information there, courtesy of the Ocean Mammal Institute,
pertaining to what's happening here with the whales and dolphins and some other research activities.
We also have some press releases as well as some beautiful ways for people to become involved
and help support the Greenpeace Hawaii activities to help save the whales here in Hawaii.
alright uh...
Michael, what I would like to do, if I can, is to open the lines in this next half hour and it's a rather unusual opportunity for people to ask you questions.
Perhaps not all will be friendly.
As you well know, you have political enemies.
However, we'll open the lines randomly and see what we get.
Are you willing to do that and answer questions?
Undoubtedly.
Let's open the lines and let the people come forth.
They'll come forth.
All right.
All right.
Stand by.
Michael Bailey is my guest.
If you would like to see Michael's website, if you would like to see photographs of the ship, The Dick was on yesterday.
We now have all of that up on our website.
It's been one of those nights where we're flying all over the place.
So, I guess all I can do is ask you all to go up there and take a look if you've got a computer.
If not, get on the phone.
Michael Bailey of Greenpeace, Director of Greenpeace Hawaii, coming up on the phones next.
It's been a too long time With no peace of mind And I'm ready for the times To get better Michael, I am on your website at the moment.
By the way, it's a beautifully done website.
The map of Hawaii is really, really nice of the islands.
But I see just below it, it says, for immediate release, Friday, February 28th, voters to blockade U.S.
Navy's Sound of Death experiment.
That's a sound of death experiment?
I presume this is the one you're talking about, right?
That's exactly it, Art.
That's what it's being called around the world at this point in time, is the sound of death, because that's what it's doing.
These sounds are being transmitted into the sea, and they are indeed causing death.
Um, are you still, have you already tried a blockade, or is this something ongoing?
There's been actually, at this point in time, in the past week since the Navy first started their test, there's been at least four sorties onto the ocean.
It's actually a citizen's protest happening on the Big Island.
We are one of the participants, there are other individuals, there's fishermen, there's whale watchers, there's other people involved with this organization here, and what we're trying to do is simply try to stop the test.
And the way that we're doing it is a fundamental, traditional Greenpeace Hawaii and even campaign where human beings are simply putting themselves
in the water in the vicinity of the Navy vessel.
We're putting ourselves within just a half mile radius of the ship, knowing full well
that if they transmit their sounds at their projected capacity, the people in the water
will be injured.
Oh my God.
Any diver in the water within a mile radius can be injured by these sounds.
These are actually very small, low sounds compared to the fully active sonar program.
Is it stopping them?
Well, yes.
So far, they've never transmitted as long as there's people in the water.
There's been periods of time when there's been people in the water for up to four to five hours, there's been no sound transmissions.
So it is having an impact upon their operation.
All right.
Let's go to the phones.
First time color line, you're on the air with Michael Bailey in Hawaii.
Hello there.
Yes.
You're on the air.
Where are you, dear?
We're in Hawaii.
Oh, you're in Hawaii.
All right, turn your radio off.
It is off.
Okay, Michael, do you have a radio on there?
No, I do not.
Okay, I thought I heard one.
All right, go right ahead, dear.
Michael's listening.
My question is, I understand that the humpbacks phonate from 12 hertz to about 30 kilohertz.
What exactly are the low frequency ranges that they're emitting?
Good question.
The low frequency ranges in the sonar test vary from around 100 or so up to even like 200 or 300 hertz.
There's been some theory that it may go as high as maybe 300 Hz.
It's within the range of the whales' transmissions.
Whales transmit a wide variety of frequencies, some which are actually thought to be even below the human hearing range or right at the lower levels of ours, as well as higher.
And it's definitely within the humpback whales.
And even more than humpback whales, quite honestly, there's even greater concern over
sperm whales and actually dolphins, which use sonar to find their squid and prey at
night.
So there's actually even other concerns over the other species of marine mammals in the
area.
Okay.
Has there been any other data trying to find out if there are adverse reactions by researchers
instead of by the Navy?
Well, the only individuals that have been doing an independent research program on the
Big Island at this point in time is the Ocean Mammal Institute that's based in actually
But they do have a group of people on the Big Island.
They were the people that just two nights ago, two days ago, noticed that there was a baby whale that was abandoned or separated from its mother.
The mother whale could not be sighted.
One of the things that we're trying to do is call for a greater number of independent researchers to be on site, because we feel that the individuals being paid by the Navy have simply got a job to put on kind of a cover-up for what's really happening, and we want independent researchers, ideally even international teams, to monitor the impact upon the whales and the dolphins.
Sounds reasonable to me.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Michael Bailey in Hawaii.
Where are you, please?
Hello?
Hello.
Yeah, Mike in Detroit.
Hi, Mike.
Yeah, first off, finally after a five year quest, I got through.
First off, I want to mention that I know studies have been done on other mammals such as bats with low and high frequency sound and it's at times caused, as I understand it, major hemorrhaging and violent reactions with them in general.
Being that they use sonar as well, don't you think that there would be evidence enough For our lovely government to have stopped it right there.
Because don't substations in general use the same or similar sonar theory?
Michael?
Is this a question for me?
Yes.
Cetaceans do of course use sonar.
Certain species more than others.
The deep diving toothed whales like the sperm whales and orca whales use sonar.
humpback whales themselves use low frequency sound to sing to each other and perhaps they
have navigational potential with sound that we have yet to even determine.
And this is one of the things of course the Navy discovered years ago, using their own
hydrophone devices scattered in the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific when they were searching
after Russian and other submarines, and that they were able to determine that the whales
and the dolphins, particularly these deep diving whales, could communicate to each other
across many, many miles of underwater area.
And that's part of what this program is about, simply duplicating some of the whales' technology.
Also, on the other side of it, I used to be in the military not too long ago myself, and
I do know for a fact for whatever reason the Cold War games, we'll call it, are still being
played because the Russian submarines aren't mothballed, I can tell you that.
Bye.
And remember the treaty not too long ago, I can't remember what it was, that grounded the SR-71, they're still in regular flight over their same areas.
Alright, Michael, what about that?
Everybody will say national security, the Cold War is over, yes, but it really isn't, as this caller said, and we have to be doing these things because the Russians are getting quieter and quieter and quieter.
What do you say?
Well, even though the Russians are perhaps getting quieter somewhat, they're not putting the level of resources into their submarines that they were 10, 15 years ago, for example.
They're still running around with the same equipment they were 5, 6, 7 years ago, or whatever.
And the United States has already hydrophone arrays.
There are listening arrays spread across the North Atlantic, between Iceland and then Norway, spread across the Pacific Ocean, that are specifically designed to find submarines.
and ironically enough those hydrophone rays are actually being allowed to go into disrepair
and this other technology has been experimented with.
Recognize this other technology, this low frequency sonar, is not even known to even if it even works.
It's simply a test of a theoretical possibility that it might work and there's a lot of people
involved that have studied it through our scientists in their own right that actually
have doubts whether it can work as accurate as the Navy really claims.
All right.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Bailey in Hawaii.
Where are you, please?
Yes, good morning, Art.
This is John from Westchester County.
In New York?
Yes, sir.
All right.
Yes, I'd like to ask Michael a quick two-part question.
By the way, Michael, congratulations on your work on behalf of Cetaceans.
Thank you very much, I appreciate that.
Okay, the first part involves the Navy's ELF submarine communications system.
You've been out in the Pacific for quite a while, and perhaps have you noticed a correlation between the use of ELF submarine communications by both the U.S.
and Russia, and perhaps the effect on undersea life?
Well, there's actually, as we've come recently to understand, there's many sounds happen to see that aren't necessarily as low frequency sonar or other things.
there's another device for example called the uh...
uh... a talk eight eighty oh c undersea boombox it's the acoustic thermometry of ocean climate which is a
sound devices off of kawaii and other ones that's off of monterey california
and what they've done they've set up another project which so far has eaten up
fifty million dollars in taxpayers money and so far has not accomplished its goals
and in theory they're trying to determine if the ocean deep water areas
are warming up maybe one degree farenheit every thirty years
and if they're able to actually prove that and then maybe it's possible to be an indicator of global
warming and to actually do that experiment is going to cost two to
three billion dollars and it's as if they've never heard of thermometers it isn't
like they've ever heard that you put a thermometer in the ocean to determine if it's
warming or not instead they have to devote these millions actually it ends
up being hundreds of millions of dollars for these projects
and one of our concerns is that it's simply a massive waste and for people who really want to engage in cold war
efforts by the submarines from the Russians and develop other types
of technology which are available, much more sensitive hydrophones are available that can
actually find quiet submarines.
I spoke last month on the program about the HAARP project up in Alaska.
Yes, are you aware of that, Michael?
Yes, we've been watching HAARP with quite a great amount of interest.
It's my understanding, and I'm not by far an expert on HAARP, I've just seen some of the information.
If you are an expert, I have a question.
It's my understanding this is an array, some sort of array of transmitters up in the Arctic That's my impression of what this thing is.
I'm not exactly sure.
Some people say that it experiments upon how to change weather patterns.
Well, some of it is communications, Michael, that they say they're testing for, and get this, the other Mission of HAARP is to map underground bunkers and tunnels.
So imagine the amount of energy they must have to reflect, if they're going to reflect it, to go underground and find bunkers and tunnels.
Whatever that means, that means that energy is penetrating right to the cells of our own bones, and we may be very concerned about what that does to us human beings.
I couldn't agree more.
Thank you very much, caller.
West of the Rockies, you're on air with Michael Bailey in Hawaii.
Where are you, please?
I'm on the Kona Coast.
Good morning, Art.
Good morning, Mike.
Very good.
Question for Mike.
As far as Greenpeace monitoring this Navy ship, Are you guys running 24-hour monitoring on this vessel?
Well, we're not even sure about that.
Is it really a Navy ship, Michael, or are there just Navy people on a civilian research ship?
You've got it, Art.
It is Navy personnel on a civilian research ship.
We believe it's a pork barrel project, where effectively the stockholders and shareholders in this vessel are getting a lot of money, tens of millions of dollars, to develop this ship, and it's just a way to allow some money to slush around We've heard these people have been contributors to fundraising on the Democratic Party, the mainland.
It's just a rumor.
We haven't got it confirmed yet.
We're trying to find out.
Um, but in answer to the caller, no unfortunately it's not been really a 24 hour surveillance, it's been largely a civilian, just a citizen's movement as a matter of fact, which has been with the Animal Welfare Institute in Washington D.C., ourselves have been involved, and a number of other people involved with whale watching and fishing just on the Kona coast there, that simply have a compassion and concern for the whales.
It has not been 24 hours.
The Navy says they're only transmitting in the daytime, but so far it's been an experiment to see if it even works as far as making sure the people in the water, the Navy doesn't transmit.
And so far it's working and there's definitely hopes amongst all of us involved with it all that it will increase and that the Navy efforts will be stopped.
Well, here's a newsflash for you then.
In Dick Algar's report this evening, he reported off seven miles off Puaco, which is about 40 miles.
North of, uh, about 50 miles north of Kailua-Kona.
I work here, um, about 10 miles out of Kailua-Kona, uh, from 10 at night to 6 in the morning.
And, um, right off of the Kona Airport, I watched the vessel operating about 2 miles offshore, uh, about 40 miles farther south than, uh, what the day reports are.
And this vessel is actually skimming up and down the coast about 2 miles offshore and doing about 10 miles, um, Runs back and forth, north to south.
So they are running 24-hour operations and they are doing something out there at night.
I don't think they're just burning gas.
What do you think?
It could easily be conducting many other types of activities there at night and even other times.
We even heard over the past year, for example, of people diving off Kona, of people that go night diving and they see these beautiful manta rays that soar through the water at these night dives, hearing underwater sounds.
The Navy denies it's them, yet we really don't know who else it could possibly be.
I'm looking at the ship right now.
Pardon that?
I'm looking at the ship right now.
I'm looking at her lights right now.
It's right there.
It's definitely a... Right off of the Kona International Airport, about maybe two, three miles offshore.
Wow.
Yeah, so they're operating.
That's no doubt.
All right, caller.
We sure appreciate it.
And Michael, you might want to make note of that.
I guess it's hard for you folks to get out at night.
Well, Art, at this point in time, it's also a matter of logistics and funding and personnel and that sort of thing.
Our organization, Greenpeace Hawaii, is largely, virtually 100% volunteer organization.
We get very little funding from our mainland compadres.
Uh, so whatever we do, we muster from our own volunteer resources here in the state.
And the people that have been involved in this program that are from the Big Island have also been doing it largely voluntarily.
The Animal Welfare Institute in Washington, D.C.
has helped us out quite a bit.
They had a fellow named Ben White here who is a renowned conservationist and activist who's been on-site organizing people.
It's been just a public citizen's outcry to what's happening here and it's a movement that's growing and it makes us feel really good.
Well, you've got to really have some brave people to go and stay in the water for hours with the possibility the Navy will say the hell with it and throw the switch anyway.
That's correct.
There are some brave people, and I guess that's one of the challenges one can face when one really believes in helping save the whales and the environment here.
All right.
First time caller online, you're on the air with Michael Bailey in Hawaii.
Where are you, please?
Just outside of Chicago.
Yes, sir.
Where it's about zero right now.
Yeah, I know.
It's getting cold.
Yes.
Good morning.
Good morning, Mike.
I've been taking notes and listening to what your guests have been saying.
My question is, what do we do now?
Where do we go?
Who do we contact?
And also, beside that, does Greenpeace have a national number?
Well, the national organization in Washington, D.C.
isn't really directly involved with this campaign.
This is largely a local effort here by our own autonomous Greenpeace Hawaii operation here and, of course, the other people and individuals and organizations that are based in the Big Island of Hawaii and throughout the state here.
The best way to simply contact the campaign front is to call Greenpeace Hawaii on the Big Island.
The Big Island of Hawaii, the number is 808-969-9910.
808-969-9910.
If you want to send a fax, we'd love to hear from you.
973-0235.
Any letters of protest you want to send off, just copy them to us.
973-0235.
We'll make sure they're sent to the Secretary of the Navy and other key people.
All right.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Michael Bailey in Hawaii.
Where are you, please?
This is Dan in Virginia.
Good morning.
Good morning, Dan.
I find it unusual, you know, we've probably had Soner for what, 50, 60 years?
Oh, a long time.
Okay.
And I think this is just a cover-up for something else.
That's actually a very good point.
Could he be right?
Could this be something else altogether, Michael?
Indeed it could Art.
There's been some people that we've been speaking with that are very highly experienced in the world of underwater physics and sound.
They have serious doubts whether this technology can even work the way they say they're going to.
Supposedly what it is, they have this sonar array of these refrigerator size transmitters.
30 to 50 of them hang off a line.
and it goes straight down into the sea, 500 feet, and somehow this is able to beam a low frequency sound,
which is very difficult, because low frequency sounds don't beam very well,
and they bounce it off the ocean bottom and up towards the surface somehow,
and somehow get another reflection back, and somehow, sort of, maybe try to get a reading
on something, and there's those that have actually stated that the frequencies that they're using,
they can't really get bounce backs from.
So it's quite possible this is something else entirely.
East of the Rockies, you're on air with Michael Bailey in Hawaii, where are you?
Oh, hi, this is Tim in Orlando.
Hi, Tim.
How you doing tonight?
Orlando, Florida.
Yes, that's right.
Okay.
I kind of agree with the fact that there may be a cover-up going on here,
because it doesn't seem logical to me to be...
You know, blasting all this high-frequency or high-intensity sonar into the oceans.
But at the same time, earlier on, you were talking about the hydrophones and everything.
You know, they could be going obsolete.
That's the reason why they're letting them go.
Because, you know, remember Hitachi had that thing with Japan a while back where Hitachi had let some of the technology go and the Russians got a hold of it.
Was it Hitachi or Panasonic?
Let's just say a Japanese company let some of the technology go where the non-cavitating props were able to be reproduced in Russia.
That's correct.
And bear in mind also that if they did have some kind of increased technology with the submarines over there, we would not really know about it.
Remember the remote viewers were the ones that found out about the The new class of submarines that have these big, huge... You're exactly right.
Caller?
Yes?
Caller, hold on a moment.
Michael, listen, we're at the end of the hour.
I have more air time if you can stick around.
We're here, we're now, we're ready to answer questions.
Alright, done deal.
In that case, both of you...
Good to talk to the director of Greenpeace in Hawaii, Michael Bailey.
Michael, welcome back.
A lot of people want to talk to you.
We're here, Art.
We're ready to answer questions.
All right.
And again, folks, if you'll go to my website and just go down to Michael's name and click on it, it'll take you right over to their website.
And it really is very, very well done.
What is your website?
www.artbell.com.
You will notice the number of hits you're about to get will test your system.
All right, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Bailey.
Where are you, please?
Hi, this is Tim Norlando, still hanging in here.
Oh, that's right, that's right.
I held you on.
Okay, yeah, I was going to say that, you know, the point I was trying to get to was that this may very well be a different type of weapon that they're trying to make up over here, or some way of being able to incapacitate the sonar listeners.
Because, you know, they've already gotten to the point in technology where it's almost impossible to hear these submarines.
And maybe the sonar listeners are getting so good at it, they need to have some kind of a screen to put up, and this is the way that they're going to do that.
You know, Art, you're a ham.
You understand about radio propagation and wave propagation.
I do.
I do.
And the propagation of a wave in the water is probably very similar in the aether.
And so if you have shortwave radiation that doesn't get around corners very well, but longwave does.
Now they're talking about low frequency sound here.
If you're using longwave radiation in the low frequencies like that, it propagates very well throughout everywhere.
And I could set up some kind of a screen for these submarines or whatever they're doing, and this could be the type of a thing that they're doing.
Well, we could speculate until we grow old, but I do agree with you that it could be something entirely different than what they're suggesting.
Absolutely.
Thank you for the call, sir.
Thank you.
Take care.
Let's go west of the Rockies.
You're on the air with Michael Bailey in Hawaii.
Where are you, please?
In Manatee, Washington.
All right.
I just had a real quick question.
I don't know if you've covered this already.
Where would you send financial support and who to contact?
to actually come and help if they need it.
Well, there's a question I'm sure Michael doesn't mind.
Definitely not.
People can simply call us.
Actually, I'd actually prefer if they actually would fax us.
Our telephone lines, it tends to get jammed, because we do have a very small office over here.
It'd be easier if they could fax us.
Somebody faxing us at 808-973-0235.
That's 808-973-0235.
Send us in your information.
if you look at our website we have a membership form and of course the website
there is http colon slash slash
green peace h i in the hawaii
dot net as g r e n p e a c e h i
in hawaii i n h a w a i i dot net there's a membership form
and basically at this point in time all the funds that we get
are being used for this campaign and we could
but i'll tell you what it's your visitation here in the pacific that are
involved with this issue it's greenpeace is the animal workers you don't know what
animal welfare institute in washington dc and a handful of other people
they're based on the big on the self-service that are involved with this
and financial support is definitely needed.
It is definitely a might against mammoth situation, but you know what's interesting Art, and whoever
is called in here, people around the world are responding to this in unprecedented numbers.
And it's not just the fact that it's the whales and it's the dolphins and it's the environment,
but of course in recent days, starting today, people became aware that there's been United
States Navy personnel exposed to these sounds and they've undergone serious physical disabilities
due to it all, and there's great concerns about that also.
Alright caller, help him out.
All right.
We appreciate the work you're doing, and Art, we love your show.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, and take care.
What I will do also is, Michael, if somebody from the U.S.
Navy or in charge of this project was interested in debating you, I take it you wouldn't mind such a setup?
I'd be very welcome to that, Art.
All right.
First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Michael Bailey in Hawaii.
Where are you?
Well, I don't know about that, but there certainly is a lot of life that we don't understand at the bottom of the sea.
of course the cover-up is that maybe there's extraterrestrial life down there
and I realize that they don't want to admit that. Well I don't know about that
but there certainly is a lot of life that we don't understand at the bottom
of the sea. As a matter of fact, Michael, recently they have discovered that
there's life where there ought not be life near volcanic venting very very
deep in the ocean.
You're aware of that?
Yes, I am.
Particularly off the big island of Hawaii, for example, there is an underwater seamount that's been rising up to the surface for millions of years, and it's actually erupting.
And from the eruptions, from the gases and chemicals, there is life.
It's actually this, uh, this new life they found makes them believe that perhaps there might even be life on Mars, or even some of the moons of Jupiter, because where there is not sunlight, we used to think there's no life.
Well, now we discovered with volcanic activity, there can be different types of life.
Surprise, surprise.
Life will prevail.
Wild Card Line, you're on air with Michael Bailey in Hawaii.
Where are you?
Hello?
Going once.
Going twice.
Go on.
East of the Rockies, you're on air with Michael Bailey.
Where are you, please?
Good morning, Art.
This is John, calling from Houston.
Unfortunately, our local affiliate here doesn't hear your last hour.
Well, they're doing their morning show.
Yeah, well, I... No, actually, they're running reruns of somebody else's show.
Oh, that's too bad.
Yeah, it is too bad, because I think your show is the best one on the air.
Well, thank you.
I'm an ex-submariner too, Art.
I was on the Greenfish SS-351 out of Pearl Harbor back during the Vietnam era, back in 67.
Right.
And I was a radio man, but one of the things I've been keeping very, very close track of is Russian submarine technology and things like that.
Now, one of your previous callers hit it right on the money.
When he said that a few years ago that Hitachi had indeed sold this non-cavitating propeller design to the Russians, but also there was another thing that was in the news very, very quietly, a little tiny article that was in about two or three years ago, about this time of the year, that according to Jane's Intelligence Weekly, as you know, the most authoritative private intelligence source in the world, the publishers of Jane's Fighting Ships, According to James, the Russians have developed a 200-knot torpedo.
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