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Feb. 25, 1998 - Art Bell

01:50:59

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Loren Coleman - Cryptozoology

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	If you have a thought, you can leave it in the comments below.
	If you have a fax for Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh, send it to him at area code 702-727-8499.
	702-727-8499.
	If you have a fax for Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh, send it to him at area code 702-727-8499.
	702-727-8499.
	8499 702 727 84 702-727-8499.
	Please limit your faxes to one or two pages.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Now, here again is Art.
	Once again, here I am coming up in a moment.
	Lauren Coleman, who is one of the world's leading cryptozoologists, Animal Guys.
	I'll tell you more about them shortly.
	So that is, uh, straight ahead.
	And that will probably be the central topic for tonight.
	It's a good one, too, because I've got an awful lot of questions about what animals in general have been doing lately.
	And a lot of stories, too, the latest out of India.
	Animals attacking people.
	Turning on people.
	I remember a movie I saw once.
	I'll never remember the name of it.
	Please don't fax it to me.
	It doesn't matter.
	Cats went berserk.
	Latched onto the faces of their owners.
	Dogs biting butts of the ones who have loved and cared and fed them.
	That sort of thing.
	Goldfish jumping out.
	Well, you don't want to know what they did.
	Anyway, maybe it was Day of the Animals, Attack of the Animals, something like that.
	But there's something strange out there going on.
	There's no question about it.
	And we'll talk about Bigfoot.
	Very credible stuff with regard to Yeti or Bigfoot.
	And many of the other mythological, question mark, animals that we talk about.
	I just want to remind you of a couple of things.
	News-wise, there's not much except Iraq, where we are not going in to inspect what we forced.
	And so they're probably, you know, moving the crates out as fast as they can.
	I'm not sure what we've won over there.
	There was a definite reaction from the good people at Nightline.
	At ABC, they sent me a fax tonight.
	Nightline sent me a fax.
	In fact, I had it posted on the website.
	It says, Dear Mr. Bell, We're impressed with the responsiveness of your listeners.
	They have successfully tied up our fax machine and hurt our ability to send faxes within ABC News.
	Please don't put our fax number on the air.
	If your listeners are anxious to be in touch with us, please have them write to us at ABC News Nightline.
	1717 DeSales Street.
	D-E-S-A-L-E-S.
	DeSales, I guess?
	That's DeSales Street, Northwest.
	Washington, D.C.
	20036.
	Thanks for your understanding.
	Sincerely, The Nightline Staff.
	So, I guess they noticed.
	Alright, we're going to plunge right into the world of animals in a moment.
	As I said, he is one of the world's leading cryptozoologists, an honorary member of several international cryptozoological organizations.
	He is a life member of the International Society of Cryptozoology.
	Coleman has written books and more than a hundred articles on the subject, has appeared
	frequently on radio and TV programs, has lectured from Idaho to London, has been both on and
	off camera consultant to NBC's Unsolved Mysteries, A&E's Ancient Mysteries, and In Search Of
	Discovery Channels, In the Unknown, and other reality-based programs underlying reality.
	He contributes a bimonthly cryptozoology column, On The Trail, to the London-based international
	magazine Fortune Times, and Mysterious World to Fate.
	On October 20, 1997, occasion of the 30th anniversary of the famous filming of the California
	Sasquatch, Loren Coleman was one of the first ten inductees into the new Roger Patterson
	memorial bigfoot museum in portland oregon Bye.
	Coleman has been investigating in the field and in the library cryptozoological evidence and folklore Since the Yeti caught his interest in 1960, which led him, I guess, to research mysterious panther sightings, reports of apes in the American Midwest, other than the ones that can be seen, for example, on the streets of some major Midwest cities, he's traveled to 45 states throughout Canada, Mexico, and the Virgin Islands, interviewing witnesses of
	Lake monsters, Sasquatch, giant snakes, mystery feline phantom kangaroos, uh, phantom kangaroos, really?
	A Thunderbird and other creature reports and folklore.
	His first articles published in 1969, then he went on to write two books with Jerome Clark.
	The Unidentified and Creatures of the Outer Edge.
	Oh, this is my kind of guy, I can tell.
	Lauren Coleman has a forthcoming book, April of 99, on the international situation regarding Bigfoot and related humanoids, and a journal, The Cryptozoologist, slated for publication at the end of 98.
	So, I could go on and on and on.
	He has many, many, many years of study, academic and investigative work in the field.
	To his credit, Has been all over the media here is Lauren Coleman. Lauren,
	welcome to the program.
	Good morning Art.
	Great to have you.
	I've been looking forward to this one for quite a while and I'm probably going to start out with an area that I'm not
	sure you're comfortable with.
	But there are two things.
	One, we have been getting all these incredible reports, Lauren, of dolphins and whales and other mammal sea creatures literally running out of the sea as if they were being chased out by something.
	And there's been too much of it lately.
	Now I get a story tonight from Honolulu that a Navy ship is set to begin blasting high-volume sounds intentionally At Humpback Whales, even after a federal judge rejected environmentalist complaints, they're going to let the Navy go ahead.
	Now, this just doesn't seem like a brilliant idea to me.
	Well, I think that I heard you say something about animals attacking people and dolphins
	beaching and all of that of course really involves without people there you wouldn't
	know that was happening.
	So we know that for hundreds and hundreds of years these kinds of things have been happening.
	I think the involvement in humans sending sonic beams into water is probably not the
	greatest idea.
	I've noticed over the years if you stand back a little a lot of it can be related to the
	A lot of it can be related to the temperature of the water.
	The environment.
	The environment.
	And of course, humans are part of the environment, so if they're burning up all of the forest in Indonesia, then you're going to get more animals coming out of the jungle, attacking people, or orangutans being shot.
	Or monkeys in Japan attacking people.
	We've got reports of... Now this is really a strange one, Loren.
	Mountain lions beginning to stalk hunters.
	What would you say about that?
	Well, I've noticed the whole situation in the West has really been pretty dramatic lately because humans are getting deeper into wilderness areas where they were not before.
	So you have joggers being attacked, hunters being attacked, and it's mainly because man is the encroacher there.
	It's not the mountain lions are coming out.
	It's that we're going deeper into wilderness areas that we I think people forget.
	building houses on the edges of wetlands and different things like that.
	So in other words you think it may be us, it may be environmental, but it's not the
	animals suddenly turning against their owners, cats are not going to be leaping on old ladies
	faces or anything.
	No I think people forget.
	I mean I remember during the mid 70's where there was quite a few different people looking
	at different animal attacks and relating them to actually the phases of the moon and we
	have a big solar eclipse tomorrow and a new moon so maybe we'll have more animal attacks
	if you believe in that theory.
	But these kinds of things have been happening for years and years and years.
	It's just that when they come in waves and they do seem to clump then people think, well
	my god this is all new and maybe that's not quite exactly what's going on.
	You have researched for years and years and years Bigfoot Yep.
	Bigfoot is one of my all time favorite topics.
	Lauren, in your professional opinion, is Bigfoot real or the figment of our overactive imaginations?
	No, I think there's actually creatures in the Pacific Northwest that are unidentified primates.
	And I have, you know, I think there's a lot of hoaxing and there's a lot of misidentification in different parts of the rest of the United States.
	But in the Pacific Northwest, There's a creature that's anywhere between six to nine feet tall that's bipedal that leaves behind footprints with five toes.
	You know, giant footprints.
	That's why they call it Bigfoot.
	And before that, up in Canada, it was called Sasquatch and still is.
	Well, shouldn't we have more than footprints?
	I mean, I've seen, as you point out, there's been a lot of hoaxing and people walk around on stilts creating giant footprints and that kind of thing.
	How do you delineate between the hoax and the real thing?
	Well, hoaxers forget that people that really know footprints well, which we're talking a lot about, some police investigators, forensic scientists, and different folks like that, as well as anthropologists and primatologists, the footprint leaves specific cracks and marks that are very related to it being an animate Not easily reproducible.
	Not faked.
	So if you have a person that has a static, you know, either a piece of concrete that's shaped like a big footprint or, you know, like the wooden things you were talking about, those show up as really much more, you know, they're obvious fakes and people can tell them.
	And also where they show up and, of course, who's finding them, how credible are the witnesses, there's all kinds of different Forensic investigative techniques that we use, as well as psychological ones, to see who these folks are.
	Lauren, if we have footprints, why has nobody yet shot one of these things?
	Well, people have shot them.
	John Green and some of my other investigative friends have found over the years that there's probably upwards of four or five good stories from the Pacific Northwest of people shooting them.
	but they shoot them and then they get very freaked out and scared that, well, I've shot
	something that's maybe a man, maybe man-like.
	Oh, Lauren, I guess I've got to tell you my story.
	I had a man on my program, he spent several hours on the air actually because I was so
	amazed and I believed his story.
	He came upon two yeti in a densely populated area, not with humans, but with vegetation,
	low vegetation.
	Yeti as in Asia?
	As in Bigfoot.
	Bigfoot, okay.
	And he shot two of them, two of them.
	And he went through the long explanation on the air, it was an amazingly lucid story,
	and he buried them.
	What happened is he did exactly as you just said, he freaked out.
	And he and his friend said, look, um, this is bad news.
	You know, we're liable to be charged with murder.
	Even though when he went up and looked at this creature, it was as a Bigfoot looks, but it had rather humanoid features to it.
	The two of them, a male and a female.
	Right.
	And he was prepared to take me to the site and dig these things up, Lauren.
	But by the end of the night, my audience had so freaked him out.
	That he just disappeared.
	Yeah.
	I mean, he was scared to death and he thought he'd be charged with murder.
	And frankly, I couldn't tell him he wouldn't.
	Right.
	Well, you know, the famous case of the Minnesota Iceman, where Frank Hansen had this in 1968, you know, a carnival or a shopping center exhibit of a man frozen in ice, you know, like a Bigfoot type creature.
	Oh, yes.
	He said that there was a mysterious owner, a millionaire, who was behind it.
	Right.
	And it was when he crossed back and forth into Canada that the Smithsonian told the FBI to investigate it, and they replaced the real body with a fake that they had constructed in Hollywood.
	And it's those kinds of things.
	Even when the body is perhaps So in other words, they took this guy into custody, Loren, and melted the ice and found a fake body?
	No, no, no, no, no.
	The FBI, when they got involved, Frank Hansen said apparently in the middle of the night he switched the body, so the local police department and the FBI became disinterested because they saw that this was a fake.
	And before that, when Ivan Sanderson and Bernard Heuvelman had showed up and taken pictures and smelled the rotting flesh, we knew that it was much more real.
	So the whole idea that there are no bodies, that there have not been any bodies, that there's no hair samples or things like that, it's just not true.
	But we're still really at the beginning of the stages of looking at Bigfoot.
	If you look at the securing of Mountain Grill, it took over 60 years.
	to come up with a mountain gorilla after expedition after expedition
	went to Africa specifically looking for mountain gorillas.
	Well the modern era of Bigfoot really started in 1958 so we're still at the
	beginning stages but you know for Americans who are everything they have to get right away.
	It's, you know, fast food thinking.
	Sure.
	How much really good evidence is there that they exist?
	There are footprints.
	You just told us a story.
	It sounded pretty good.
	Yeah.
	But what else exists?
	Fur?
	Has there been fur tested that is anomalous?
	There's been fur that has been said to be unknown primate, near human, and, you know, hair samples all the way from China or Nepal.
	You know, for those kinds, for the Yeti and the Yeren and the Wildman, and some of the samples from Ohio of what's called the Grassman there.
	There's a new book called Bigfoot in Ohio that's really good.
	The Grassman?
	The Grassman.
	That's just a local name.
	You can go to almost any state, and if there's enough reports, you have a local name.
	Okay, what do we know?
	What do we know about Bigfoot?
	Is Bigfoot nocturnal?
	What do we know?
	Well, I think you've got several things going on here.
	Bigfoot is a generic term that's used too loosely for what I think are many different kinds of creatures, unknown primates.
	Right.
	But if we're talking specifically about the Pacific Northwest Bigfoot, we know that it's man-like, it's bipedal, it probably builds nests, it is Mostly nocturnal, although obviously you have witness accounts that are at the beginning and end of the Bigfoot day.
	You say it builds nests?
	Yes.
	Very similar to what we're finding among gorillas.
	They use vacant buildings.
	They don't use caves as much as some other types of animals, but there have been incidents where different beds and different Kind of nesting structures have been found in the Pacific Northwest and British Columbia.
	Very interesting.
	Listen, I'm short of commercials.
	Bigfoot makes nests, huh?
	That's really interesting.
	Well, you were asking for different kinds of evidence, and that's one of them.
	You know, the footprints is another, the hair samples.
	Have you found a nest?
	I have not personally found a nest.
	I've talked to and interviewed various people that have.
	I've found footprints.
	I've heard screeches, I've smelled smells, you know, so I've been that close, but there's a lot of people out there that have had very close encounters.
	Oh yes, I know.
	You say you have heard Bigfoot, huh?
	I've heard a screeching type sound that could be a Bigfoot or it could have been a type of bird, you know.
	I did not see the creature.
	I was in an area investigating specific reports of creatures that have made those sounds
	and people have seen them when they've made those sounds so Okay, well I've got something that I want you to hear
	Well, that ought to do it.
	Have you ever heard that sound, Lori?
	Is that the Alan Barry tape?
	You know what?
	I'm not exactly sure.
	That came actually from Linda Moulton Howe, and it was represented to be the real thing, taped by some hunters.
	Right.
	Let me say, I want to reserve judgment on that one.
	I've heard some stories about how that might have come about with various manipulations, so I'm still Up in the air about the reality of that.
	But don't they say that about everything?
	For example, even the best evidence there is said to be, the videotape, the Patterson tape, there's a lot of people calling that a hoax now.
	Yep, there have been and unfortunately last October on the 30th anniversary there was this whole story about that a guy named John Chambers in Hollywood had produced it.
	That's right.
	John Landis knew all about that.
	A woman named Bobby Short, a great investigator in Southern California, went out and did an interview with John Chambers, and John Chambers, who had won an Academy Award for doing the makeup for Planet of the Apes, told her that he let that story go on for years because it was actually wonderful publicity within the Hollywood community for him to act like he was responsible for it.
	No kidding!
	No kidding!
	And that's now been published.
	I published it in England.
	I take it then that you feel the Patterson tape is legit?
	Oh, I do.
	You know, you have to start with films.
	You have to start with the people that took them.
	I think Roger and Bob are quite credible people.
	Roger Patterson is dead now.
	Bob Gimlin is still alive and I've read interviews and I've seen tapes and I've talked to people that know him really well and I've talked to quite a few people about those two gentlemen over the years and that's where I start psychologically looking at the witnesses.
	Did they have anything?
	Was there anything in it for them?
	Roger Patterson was passionate about Bigfoot.
	He went out there looking for Bigfoot and he found it and once he found it then Nobody believed him.
	It was a sad story.
	Yeah, there are a lot of people who would say, look, any investigator going out with a camera actually looking for a Bigfoot, what are the odds of that really happening unless he had something else in mind?
	And because he was actually looking for a Bigfoot, it hurts his case when he comes back with a video.
	Isn't that strange?
	Right.
	I mean, if a scientist goes out looking for a giant squid and finds one, then he's called a success.
	Yeah, that's exactly right.
	Another obvious question is, what is Bigfoot?
	What in the world, if this animal exists, mammal, what is it?
	Well, there's two major schools of thought.
	Grover Krantz, who's An anthropologist out west has been talking about Bigfoot and wrote a book about Bigfoot.
	He believes that this Gigantopithecus Blacki, which is a giant ape that may be seven, eight, ten feet tall, fossil finds really only exist in India and China and Vietnam.
	Four jaw bones and about a thousand teeth.
	So nobody knows the real structure of this animal, but anthropologists have speculated that it's a ape in theory, because it's really the only big eye mate that seems to be around that fits that.
	Okay, but you said giant ape, but does it seem to have human characteristics with regard to consciousness, plotting thought, It would seem to have all those characteristics.
	More like a human than an animal.
	Well, that's why I and a few other cryptozoologists believe that it's Paranthropus robustus, which is an austropithecine type.
	Boy, are you getting ahead of me.
	Right.
	Anyway, this is another.
	It's closer to being a human.
	It's found all over Asia and Africa.
	These creatures were much more bipedal, much more upright, and seemed to be closer in terms of the behaviors as well as the structure that we find in Bigfoot.
	Because, like you're saying, Bigfoot seems to be a very intelligent animal, a very intelligent primate.
	One of the reasons that they're able to stay alive for so long is that... It has cunning.
	Yeah, they have cunning.
	They hide.
	Alright, I'm told by scientists that human DNA and ape DNA probably don't have more than a 1% difference or something like that, is that right?
	Yeah, 97% chimpanzee.
	Okay, so 3% then.
	Right, right.
	Now, presumably, the creature we're talking about right now would have DNA that would exhibit even closer characteristics to Well, maybe I'm sticking my neck out here.
	Maybe that's all wrong.
	Maybe there could be an intelligence without that additional DNA.
	What do you say?
	Yeah, I think that that's one of the problems that when you have a piece of DNA and you take it in the lab and you have a lab come back and say, well, this isn't human, but it's almost human.
	And yet we don't have a creature to base a sample on.
	So we don't know what it is.
	That doesn't tell us anything.
	And, I mean, Grover Krantz, there's this big debate out West, which you may have heard through your show over the years, of, you know, do we kill it, or do we just go photograph it?
	Well, I think he wanted, what he said was, I believe, that the first Bigfoot should be killed, and then there should be the death penalty for anybody who would kill one after that.
	Right.
	But he wants one body.
	Because he feels that's the only way it can be proved.
	And he may be right.
	I live in Maine, and I think someday a lumber truck is going to kill one of them.
	Well, that could be.
	But if you had a Bigfoot in your sights with a .30-06, would you pull the trigger?
	Well, I'm not a hunter, and I don't own a gun, so I wouldn't even see that.
	Well, that doesn't matter.
	I can still put you out there in the woods with a gun.
	I'm much more in the telebiology school, where I think that I don't want to get in the way of Grover Krantz and those folks that want to do that, but I'm much more photography.
	I think there's ways to take DNA samples, tranquilize it, keep it in captivity a little bit, take samples, bring in, fly in some of the best anthropologists and zoologists in the world, make sure that it's so verifiable, and then make a sanctuary for part of the wilderness that it's in.
	And the death penalty or whatever.
	But I think there's other ways short of killing them.
	Because we don't really know what they are.
	We don't know how close to homo they are.
	Homo sapiens.
	Sure.
	Okay, so then, if you wouldn't pull the trigger and you wouldn't even have a gun... I'd pull the trigger on a tranquilizer gun, okay?
	I'll go that way.
	I've got you.
	Alright.
	What then, assuming you were just out in the woods, what would you do?
	I... Yeah, I would...
	Hopefully have some photographic equipment.
	So I'd want to take pictures.
	I'd want to notice.
	I'd want to be very quiet.
	I wouldn't want to approach it.
	I'd want to become part of the environment.
	And I think that what often happens when Bigfoots are encountered is that people run away.
	They're scared, frightened, and they leave behind lots of evidence, you know, where the footprints are or hair samples or whatever.
	And they come back and all they have is a sighting.
	And then immediately the ridicule factor gets thrown at them.
	Oh, I would bet you about only 10% of the people who ever even see a Bigfoot report it to anybody at all.
	Right.
	I mean, it's more than you know, this ridicule factor.
	Oh yeah.
	I mean, I work in academia and I'm very careful about who I talk about my 40 years of interest in Bigfoot.
	Because it's all around us.
	And that's one of the reasons they haven't been found, is because if you can't convince people to look, they won't see.
	Do you take a lot of heat?
	Oh, of course.
	Yeah, sure.
	Bigfoot is by no means the only creature that you have investigated.
	You've looked at quite a few, haven't you?
	And one that you didn't list here, but that I found eternally interesting, is the chupacabra.
	Chupacabra, sure.
	Yeah, now, look, people, again, ridicule and joke, but, gee, Lauren, there have been endless reports, beginning in Puerto Rico, then South America, then Mexico, even the Southwest U.S., of goats with all the blood removed from them, two bite marks on the neck, and not only goats, but other animals, and even some humans.
	And I'll tell you, Lauren, in Mexico, They don't laugh about Chupacabra.
	Oh, I know.
	I have friends in Brazil.
	They don't laugh.
	No.
	Chupacabra is taken very seriously, and I think that, you know, because it's been in the Hispanic-Latino community, people have only now beginning to, you know, realize that it's a very, very widespread phenomena, and it's been there quite a few years, and it's only recently.
	What I, in my book, Curious Encounters, I talked about things that I called Creatures of the Black Lagoon, which witnesses said looked like the Gill Man, looked like reptilian creatures with spikes in its head, and very chupacabra-like.
	We've had these reports for decades, and it's just when some great newspaper journalist in Puerto Rico started putting it all together that I think you've got now what's a phenomena.
	Well, we don't have a, you know, nothing that I trust as being real as a photograph of a chupacabra, though there are some pretty strange ones.
	I've got a couple really strange ones on my website.
	You've got that great song, too.
	Oh, I do.
	I do.
	But there is a creature that was killed by, you know, a car or a truck on the side of the road.
	I don't know whether you've seen that one on the website.
	It is reputed to be possibly a chupacabra.
	Whatever a chupacabra is, we don't have... I may concede we don't have a photograph of one, but we've got a gazillion photographs of its victims.
	Right.
	And there, I think that you sometimes have problems with it.
	I've seen the footprints of the chupacabra supposedly from Miami.
	They look very much like a big cat or a dog.
	The three claws?
	Well, that's not the... Yeah, the three claws is different, and I've heard about those, I've seen drawings of those, but the plaster cast that I have actually of the supposed animal that mutilated something like, you know, 46 chickens.
	You have a plaster cast?
	Of a chupacabra, supposedly.
	You do?
	Yeah.
	Where did you get that?
	From a researcher from another investigator in Miami.
	Oh, Lauren, um... And I believe it's available through one of those websites, the Chupacabra websites.
	Um, if you could give me an address, I would very much like to get a link up to that and see it.
	Yeah, well, I'll email it to you, okay?
	Alright.
	Alright, uh, yeah, I really want a photograph of that.
	Do you happen to have any photographs yourself?
	Of?
	Of this, uh, cast?
	Oh, yeah, I can take those real quickly.
	Oh, I would really appreciate your sending me one.
	I can scan it, get it in.
	Okay.
	I don't know why I am so fascinated by this.
	Chupacabra, I think, by the way, a lot of people talk about it in terms of aliens, in terms of reptilian things, but if you talk to the people that have seen Chupacabra, if you read some of the reports, here again you have a bipedal creature that is covered with hair.
	Right, that's correct.
	And that is a primate.
	So we're, once again, it's almost like a relative bigfoot if you want to say that, but we're once again in the primate area and not in the reptile area.
	And I think a lot of people think that chupacabras are some kind of smooth-skinned reptilian alien, but... Oh no!
	No, they're hairy?
	Right, they're hairy.
	And ugly?
	I mean, by our standards, I guess.
	And nocturnal?
	Nocturnal, which most primates that are nocturnal have rather large eyes.
	Now, I'm curious.
	You're a cryptozoologist, one of the most famous.
	When I say a chupacabra is ugly, what representations I have seen of it... Yeah, I don't think any animals are ugly, but... I had a feeling you might feel that way.
	So even a chupacabra at its fangiest worst really is a thing to behold for you.
	Yeah, I really like animals.
	I mean, sharks are not scary and... No?
	No, I mean they're scary if you don't understand them, but we go into their environment.
	We're going into the environment of chupacabras and Bigfoot.
	Tell me about, I've always wondered, I've seen these photographs on television of these maniacal people who go down in these shark cages and usually a shark comes and hits the cage hard enough to either rattle it open and eat the guy or girl and or bend the cage In a way that's really frightening.
	I mean, how could you?
	Do you go down in those cages?
	There was a great show on tonight on National Geographic did a show called Sea Monsters The Search for the Giant Squid.
	Yes, sir.
	And Clyde Roper is doing the same thing.
	He was going down in one of those, you know, things and in comes.
	It wasn't a real giant.
	It wasn't the classic giant squid, but it was just a humble six, seven foot long squid
	and it gets in the cage with him and bites him on the leg.
	Oh really?
	Yeah.
	And you know, you wonder, but we all go after these things and occasionally get bit.
	Yeah, that would be bad.
	Actually, I suppose in a way he's essentially locked in the cage?
	Well, no, it had an open top.
	But then got in there anyway.
	Yeah.
	But I mean, have you gone down in a cage yourself, or have you gone down and spent time with sharks just with scuba gear, or what?
	No, no, I haven't done any of that with the watery creatures.
	I've, you know, done the whole snorkeling bit and run into barracuda and stuff like that, but I haven't encountered sharks.
	You also mentioned something about a phantom kangaroo?
	Yeah, I think, well, since about the 1890s, I've been able to track it back.
	Americans have been reporting kangaroos and the big, the biggest flap that occurred happened in Chicago starting in about, you know, in the 70s when two police officers came around the corner and they saw a kangaroo in an alley and started punching them.
	So for the next two weeks, all across Northern Illinois and into Indiana, You had very credible witnesses seeing kangaroos hopping across their yards, leaving three-toed footprints.
	Really?
	And mirroring in many ways the early chupacabra reports.
	So I have used the collective name mystery kangaroos or phantom kangaroos because that's what the witnesses were calling them.
	Is that what you call a chupacabra or do you delineate it?
	No, I think chupacabras are something entirely else.
	You know, chupacabras are chupacabras.
	But I think that there's an emerging line between some of these things that people are calling kangaroos, which I think may be more primate related.
	And my book that's coming out in a whole year and a half, which is already written with the publisher, but sometimes publishers sit on books, really talks about the whole idea that these kangaroos, as people are calling them, are really probably some form Alright, we're going to break here at the top of the hour, but when we come back, what I want to ask you about is the source of these creatures.
	In other words, have they been around for a long, long time and they have simply successfully hidden from us?
	Is there the possibility that some of these creatures, whatever they are, Are new, because there are new creatures that appear on the Earth from time to time, right?
	Supposed to be, if evolution is as it is described.
	So they might be new, or of course there is a third possibility.
	They might be from elsewhere.
	Lauren Coleman, a world famous cryptozoologist, is our guest, and we will be back.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Most famous cryptozoologists.
	We're talking about Bigfoot, Nessie, kangaroos that are not exactly kangaroos, the chupacabra.
	We're talking of many things.
	This man is a scientist.
	He has consulted for just about every major television program that you can imagine that deals with this sort of thing.
	He has been studying these animals for probably about, I don't know, 9 to 40 years.
	Traveled to 45 states, the Virgin Islands, Canada, Mexico, all over the place in search of... And so that's what we're talking about.
	Are you... Oh, and we will get to phones.
	East Coasters.
	Great show, Tim.
	Well, it is a good question.
	It seems like the West, the Northwest, the Southwest has a disproportionate number of these stories, Lauren.
	You told us about Ohio.
	What about the East?
	Oh, I think the East is full of stories.
	Eastern Canada has the Wendigo stories.
	Is it what?
	Wendigo.
	Sorry, I don't know what that is.
	It's the Eastern Windigo.
	So W-I-N-E-I-T-E-R. It's an eastern type of Bigfoot.
	Florida and the south has what I've called Napes for years and what locally different people
	call Boogers or Swamp Apes or Skunk Apes. In Louisiana you have the Honey Island Swamp Monster.
	Of course there's the famous Mothman from West Virginia. In Massachusetts for many years
	you had different reports of the Dober Demon, a little kind of four foot tall orange
	creature with a round orange head.
	And then all up in...
	One of the biggest things in the East, of course, is these reports of Black Panthers, which seem to be not mountain lions, but actually melanistic black felines, which are not supposed to exist.
	There's hundreds and hundreds of reports of those.
	Do you believe they exist?
	I believe, yeah.
	I mean, I've found the tracks.
	I've talked to many people about them.
	It's just a whole volumes and volumes.
	They're sort of the Bigfoot of the East as far as I'm concerned, these panther reports.
	All right, well, we'll get into more detail about these animals, but before the hour ended,
	I was sort of inquiring of you.
	One could imagine several possibilities.
	One, that we have a new animal, or animals, on Earth that they have evolved and they are simply here.
	If you believe in evolution, I mean, it could happen.
	That's one.
	Two would be that these creatures are from elsewhere and that they pop in and out.
	I mean, there's been a million stories about the dimensional holes and things like the Chupacabra
	and things that just don't seem natural to earth popping out and popping back again.
	Right.
	What do you generally subscribe to?
	I mean, or that they've been here all along is obviously number three and most likely, I suppose.
	Yeah, I mean, I have a real, I mean, I think when I was younger
	and just getting into this, I looked into the psychic projection
	of the collective unconscious.
	In other words, were these animals projections of us and were they related to that?
	I've really rejected that over the years because it's sort of using one unknown to explain another, which I think is a real problem.
	So let's look at Chupacabra, for instance.
	You have a situation where I think you have patterns of wildlife that increase and decrease.
	And if you look at this globally, as far as, anyway, the North America area with chupacabra, you may have had different reports and different kind of breeding populations of chupacabras different places, and there's been an explosion.
	And we don't exactly know what that's caused.
	More people having more wildlife that they can suck the blood out of, I don't know.
	Alright, now, let me stop you there, and let's get into some details.
	The reports I've heard again and again, hundreds if not thousands of animals with the blood sucked from them.
	It is my understanding that a bat, even a vampire bat, will bite its victim and then lap up the blood.
	Sorry folks, it's getting graphic, but there is no known creature that actually takes all the blood out of its victim, is there?
	No.
	The vampire bat, like you said, it usually bites the toes and then licks the blood off.
	Yeah.
	And there are no animals that drain the blood.
	All right.
	How sure are we that all of these bodies that have been put on display by Mexican television, Puerto Rican television, even some U.S.
	TV, actually have had all the blood taken from them?
	We're not very sure.
	What happens after a livestock That's there for a while is the blood coagulates.
	It appears to be drained of blood.
	There's all kinds of different things.
	I think that, you know, Linda Howe obviously knows from investigating the cattle mutilation phenomena all through the 70s that there's natural predators like coyotes, you know, different hawks and other things that are killing some of these animals, leaving them dead, you know, for 24 hours, 48 hours until their owners find them.
	And sometimes it's not related to anything mysterious.
	It's just a natural predator.
	And I think all of those natural predator deaths are being grouped under chupacabra.
	So even though I sense that there's some real reality behind chupacabra, I think that this whole grouping of every mutilation, every blood draining, every animal that's being killed by something is a chupacabra.
	It's just the usual thing that happens at the beginning of any wave like this.
	All right, even Florida, here's one for you.
	Please ask Loren if he's heard about a, in quotes, Bigfoot-like creature that lives and travels around the Florida Everglades.
	According to eyewitnesses, this thing, this creature, is so bad and stinks so badly, it literally drives people away from it with the smell.
	That's an interesting interpretation.
	It's called a skunk ape and people who see it are scared of it and it says it stinks and they go away from it, but it's not driving people away from it because of the stink, it's just part of its natural odor.
	But the skunk ape, there's two different variations on the skunk ape.
	One is large and big foot like, bipedal.
	But the more prominent skunk apes are chimpanzee like creatures that seem to go around on all
	fours, look like chimps, leave a footprint with a toe out to the side and that very much
	mirrors reports all over the bottom lands and swamps of the south.
	Of these apes like creatures that are not bigfoot, they are something entirely different,
	they are more like a chimp.
	foot.
	You love Bigfoot, don't you?
	I certainly do.
	Is Bigfoot probably a missing link or the link between ape and man, which seems a logical conclusion to jump to?
	No, there is no missing link that exists now because we're all evolved from things way back when fossil forms show us that We all have to be end results of these, so there's no missing link that exists now.
	These animals, the Bigfoot and the West, probably are a cousin, a relative, you know, somebody you would... Of ours?
	Yeah, of ours.
	Well, that makes them, in a way, though, that makes them a missing link.
	I mean, they... But is the pygmy chimpanzee, which is closer to us than even the The regular chimpanzee, is that a missing link?
	I don't know.
	It's always dangerous to say missing links because people really think that from that missing link that then we can evolve some other species.
	We're not quite sure that it happens that way.
	Lauren, is there any reason why a new species could not suddenly just show up on Earth?
	Well, new species do evolve all the time because of environmental constraints, but sure, they do show up all the time, so I'm not disagreeing with that, but the more complex the organism, the higher the primate, the less evolution, the less new species would happen very rapidly.
	Well, what are the odds of another, in other words, if evolution is It's a dynamic process, right?
	Well, it could.
	I mean, who's to say that cockroaches aren't already intelligent?
	They've been here longer than any of us.
	You know what I mean?
	Intelligence is relative.
	Dolphins are pretty bright.
	aren't already intelligent. They've been here longer than any of us. You know what I mean?
	Intelligence is relative. Dolphins are pretty bright. Dinosaurs...
	Yes, yes.
	are pretty bright.
	Dinosaurs... Yes, yes, but couldn't they... I mean, at some point, the human made a leap, obviously.
	Isn't it possible that one of these others that are close could suddenly make the leap?
	Right, or... They may have already.
	I think that... Really?
	Carlton Kuhn once said that, who are we to say that the Yeti is not as bright as we are, because if they're close to water, They don't work, they don't pay taxes, and they just get to live a life.
	Not to say that they're not brighter than us.
	You're just being somewhat facetious.
	Well, they don't have TV or the internet or a heater in their little nest.
	Right.
	So it all depends on what your definition of pleasure and comfort is.
	But I understand what you're saying.
	If mankind kills themselves, though, they'll probably kill these things before they can evolve to any kind of intelligent being.
	But it is possible that one day, one animal, a dolphin, perhaps a monkey, an ape, something or another, will take the leap, going back to Planet of the Apes, and suddenly talk, or begin to communicate in a rational way with humans.
	Or, yeah, I mean, I think that what I try to do is look, we're very ethnocentric, humans are.
	Oh, yes.
	And who's to say that the flashing of the skin patterns which, of the giant squid, are not trying to communicate something to us.
	That the clicks of the dolphin already are saying things that we don't understand.
	So, I think intelligence is already out there.
	It's just that we're defining it in terms of us.
	We're that bad, huh?
	We're not.
	It's not bad.
	It's just what we do.
	Well, no, it is.
	I mean, we're very egocentric.
	Yeah.
	But a scientist, Dale Russell, who studied dinosaurs up in Canada, felt that, you know, just through a slip of nature, that we could have had bipedal, very brainy reptiles, you know, walking around among us.
	Well, I would say then there is some Something good about the way nature has done its work because I wouldn't want that.
	Okay.
	Um, so anyway, all of this combined.
	Oh, and then there's another, what, what about this famous monster in, in, in Lake?
	Um, Loch Ness monster or Lake Champlain or?
	Oh, Lake Champlain.
	Well, let's begin with Loch Ness and then work our way toward Lake Champlain.
	Um, Well, almost all of the northern lakes, you know, a little belt around the world, have reported a certain kind of lake monster that has a big hump on the back or two humps and a long neck.
	Yes.
	The Surgeon's Photo, the one that everybody looks at of the Loch Ness Monster.
	Yes.
	Which there was a big controversy, a deathbed confession that it was a hoax and all of that.
	Well, investigators have done all of the work and found out that that's probably an
	animate object in the water but maybe an otter.
	Maybe an otter.
	Yeah.
	So the pictures that are much more telling from Loch Ness show this huge, huge hump and
	the running theory is that these things are giant otters or that they're prehistoric quails
	that may have survived that are long and thin and look like a serpent.
	That's why you get the whole notion of sea serpent.
	Well, whatever it is, there is something there.
	I mean, they've done the soundings.
	They've seen these monstrous things moving under the lake at immense speeds.
	Well, it hasn't been publicized too much, but NOVA is going to have a program come on in the near future, in which they went over there very skeptical.
	NOVA, of course, you know, is known for debunking Loch Ness Monsters.
	Do you know when that's going to run?
	No, I've been trying to find out.
	I think it may be as soon as a month from now, or it may be the lead one for their new season next fall.
	All right, now Lake Champlain.
	Yep, there's all kinds of different lakes in the United States that have monsters, but probably the most famous, investigated by a guy named Joseph Sarzinski, is Lake Champlain, which of course runs through two, you know, Between Vermont and New York and up into Canada and it's a very similar looking creature to the Loch Ness Monster with the long neck and the big body and you know there's probably six or seven good reports of it every year.
	Kind of sounds like it's related to the dinosaur family doesn't it?
	Yeah that's why the Pleistocene you know why I mean why the Plesiosaurus I'm sorry the Plesiosaurus was this large reptilian dinosaur like creature was said to be the Loch Ness Monster.
	But, you know, even P.T.
	Barnum was involved in the Lake Champlain.
	He offered a reward if anybody could bring it to him so he could exhibit.
	Are there any reports that you're aware of, of any of these creatures, don't protect them in your answer, Bigfoot to lake monsters, consuming human beings?
	Consuming human beings?
	Or, well... Yeah, or killing them.
	Or killing, yes, or killing.
	I think it's interesting if you go different places.
	For instance, there's a place in the Northwest Territories called the Headless Valley.
	The Headless Valley.
	And there was reports of giant Bigfoot-type creatures, let's call them for now, and for years and years prospectors would go into the valley.
	They would either disappear or their bodies were found by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police with their heads severed.
	Not consumed, but simply with their heads severed.
	And some evidence that it was done by... Well, that was speculation.
	I don't know.
	The Royal Canadian Mounted Police would never say that.
	All right.
	Stay right where you are with your head where it is, and we'll be right back.
	Lauren Coleman, a world-famous cryptozoologist, is my guest.
	Lauren Coleman, your call's coming up in a second.
	Lauren, why do you think, and I'm a victim, Why do you think people really like monsters?
	I think people like to get scared so that they can then master that scary feeling.
	And it's always nice to know that there's something unknown out there, so I think those are two big reasons.
	Okay, let me relate something short to you.
	I think you're right.
	I think people, sort of right, I think people like to think about being scared.
	Right.
	They like to hear about some poor slug who got his head chopped off by something.
	But, let me assure you, Lauren, one day, I was talking about ghosts, I was doing a show on ghosts, and I had this gigantic kaboom on my door.
	And, I've got to tell you, Lauren, I about lost it.
	You know, in other words, for a long time there, it was not fun.
	I was scared.
	Right.
	And if you really encountered one of these things, I think it wouldn't be as much fun as you think it might be.
	Now, for you it might, because, of course, that's your bread and butter, so to speak.
	But for the average guy or gal, no.
	No.
	No fun.
	Okay, there's a million people who want to talk to you.
	People love this topic, so let's see what we've got here.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Loren Coleman.
	Good evening, Eric.
	Good evening, Loren.
	Hi.
	My name is Fran, and I live in Springfield, Massachusetts.
	And in May of 1973, I was a Marine.
	We did a battalion-sized exercise in an area of California known as KC Springs.
	We were told that there were no roads to get there.
	We were inserted by helicopter.
	I was sent out on a midnight ambush with 15 other Marines.
	It was a computerized war game.
	It worked on the computer, so they send Marines out to see if it can feasibly be done.
	What we did was, uh, we were going after an aggressor force.
	We set up a linear-shaped ambush.
	It's shaped like an L. And when your victims walk into it, you... It's a computer kill.
	Well, we set up this ambush at midnight.
	And we had two individuals walk into our ambush.
	And we opened fire with blanks.
	And, as it turns out, we thought they were bare.
	So, we scrambled, shooting our blanks at these individuals, and they separated.
	One went one way, one went the other way.
	We got back to our PPB, which is our platoon-sized patrol base, and we told our lieutenant what had happened.
	He radioed it in to our commander, and this was the first night of a four-day war game, and it was cancelled.
	We were given orders to light a large fire, a fixed bayonet, and stand on a 360 around our blazing fire.
	All through that night, we heard high-pitched, uh, the only way I can describe it is that of a death ball of a bear.
	And in the morning, we had two helicopters come in with, uh, base game wardens.
	And some other fellas.
	To this day, I don't know who they are.
	We were made to bring them back to the area that this happened, to the individual block where we directed them, and we were ordered to leave the area.
	And this is something the Marine Corps does not do, is cancel computerized war games.
	There was over 3,000 Marines Involved in this and the logistics and the money that was
	spent on this and it was cancelled right in
	1994 I was watching a Monsters and myths program
	and a fellow from Bothell, Washington got a tape of
	Supposedly Bigfoot and I would imagine Lauren would know of that well
	Yeah.
	Mr. Cliff Crook, I think his name is.
	Oh, yes.
	Let's stop there.
	The very infamous Crook photo.
	Right.
	Do you have any comments you want to make on that?
	A hoax.
	A hoax?
	Yeah.
	It looks like a little plastic thing in some water.
	Computer generated.
	He brings up an interesting point, though.
	Do you think That our government at any level officially might be aware that there are these creatures.
	Well, I think it's very interesting what you said, because if they would have any evidence, any, you know, biotechnical evidence of it, it's probably in some file someplace.
	And how many of us think about doing Freedom of Information requests to the About this kind of thing.
	You're darn right.
	Have you done any?
	When I wrote my book, Tom Slick and the Search for the Yeti, I searched the FBI and CIA files for Tom Slick and Yeti information and got a few things, but I have not specifically asked, you know.
	The real problem is that you have to know what to ask for.
	You have to know exactly the right label, the right name, the right date.
	and if you get anything wrong they can say there's nothing there
	so when i find when i found that the fbi was saying the cia was investigating it
	that i went to the cia and they said they had no files i knew that
	i must be off by a word or something yes that's right, very clever. wildcard line you're on the
	air with lauren coleman good morning yes good morning gentlemen this is john and scott still
	nice to talk to you again your previous caller raised a very important point
	Actually, two points I wish to discuss.
	First of all, A lot of the animal attacks you're talking about might be explained by the fact that more and more people are going into the wilderness unarmed.
	Unlike previously, predators are not stupid.
	They know this.
	Secondly, the suppression of evidence of hominoids is something that fits in with uh... well a lot of other topics you have a show
	you had a guest uh... art previously on your show Lloyd Pye.
	and uh... in it he promulgates the theory that hominoids as we know them
	That's right.
	are the natural descendants of Yes.
	I can embrace that concept.
	and that human beings are created genetically engineered creatures, self-evident in their
	own anatomy, and that that's what hominoids are, kind of pushed to the edges, but they
	are the natural descendants of the Earth.
	I can embrace that concept.
	In other words, we are the ones living more unnaturally, if you will, than they are the
	ones living naturally.
	Right.
	Apes and presumably hominoids have 46 pairs of chromosomes, where we have 40.
	They have 48, rather.
	We have 46, 23, and 24.
	I wonder what Mr. Coleman has to say about Mr. Pye's theory and what he might, if he's heard of him.
	Alright, what about that?
	That many of the creatures we have talked about tonight, and are talking about, are the natural ones.
	We're the unnatural ones.
	Right, well, I guess I have to differ.
	Coming from an anthropological, zoological background, I think that we are an animal.
	We are very much a naked ape, and that we have, we're have been bright enough to reconstruct our environment to
	make it do what we want it to do.
	But we're naked apes, huh?
	God, I hate that idea.
	I know you do.
	Or we're the third chimpanzee, if you want to.
	There was another book that was called that.
	And I think that it's back to what I was saying about we're so close to it, we can't see how
	animalistic we are.
	Kind of interesting.
	Art, I work at a nuclear power plant and myself and a friend of mine had a Bigfoot encounter
	at work.
	These happen several months apart.
	We work security and have to go deep into the woods to find a natural gas-fired plant.
	That's where my friend saw the pile of pine straw that was crouching beside the dirt road.
	He got out of the truck to unlock a gate and smelled something he described as rotten animal guts.
	He turned and saw this pile of straw get up and move into the woods.
	At this point, he left the area quickly.
	I never saw it, but I did smell something horrible on the same route.
	It's about 2300 hours or so.
	I was going to get out of the truck at the same time, and that's when I smelled it.
	I heard a powerful, bellowing sound in the woods, then crashing through tree sounds.
	Needless to say, I, too, got the hell out of there.
	It feels good to tell someone this story.
	I think that these creatures are great artists of camouflage, and that sounds like one of those cases.
	Sounds like a good one.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Loren Coleman.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	Hi, Dr. Coleman.
	That's nice to speak to you again, Art.
	Dr. Coleman, in the 70s, I worked for a research lab, and we used to get wild rhesus monkeys from South Africa to do research on, and my job was to handle the animals, to take them out of the cage for different types of tests and things.
	And during the courses that I had to take to be an animal handler, I was informed that there are 10 times, a wild monkey is 10 times stronger than a man.
	Now, a lot of these monkeys would weigh about 25 pounds and that makes them about a 250 pound strong person.
	And when I tried taking him out of the cage with double thick leather gloves it was it was shown to me by the by a 25 pound monkey how very strong they can be.
	Right.
	During these tests they would have they would have their canine teeth removed because they had a tendency to bite.
	They were from the wild.
	Yeah.
	And they didn't take a little like the research work.
	The point that I'm getting to I go along with what you say about capturing, or if you're going to shoot one of these things, shoot it with a knockout dart, an immobilizing compound of some kind.
	But then, once you've done that, you talk about monsters and scary things, and say this Bigfoot doesn't want to be domesticated.
	I bet it doesn't.
	You should have a very strong cage.
	I can't imagine trying to handle a six to nine foot, six hundred pound anything that doesn't want to be handled.
	No, that's exactly right.
	We know we can do it with rhinos.
	We know we can do it with other large, several ton animals.
	I mean, you know, I think that the The technology is out there for us to study these animals and keep them safe and to keep us safe.
	If we did get one alive, Lauren, it seems to me it would probably be in a Bigfoot park soon, jumping through hoops or something.
	Well, from everybody I know that's involved in this, I don't think that's probably true.
	Unfortunately, what has happened, though, is there's no really Good funding around for this kind of research because it's still on the fringe.
	So who is going to do this?
	Who is going to go after and get the first Bigfoot?
	Is it going to be a person that's got a Jurassic Park type situation?
	Who should do it, Lauren?
	You tell me.
	Well, I think it should be some university should get funded or some cryptozoological society that has a board of scientists.
	organization the north american science institute up and heard river
	that's being privately fund and that funded for five years to bigfoot research their
	continuation of the bigfoot project really
	and uh...
	i'm hoping that you know people will notice those kinds of organizations and
	get some funding and get some you know scientific backing to it let us suppose that
	somebody uh... probably the government they do this kind of thing all the time does
	suddenly graced you with a million dollars
	Right.
	And said, settle the issue.
	Find or declare as not real Bigfoot.
	How would you go about, with enough resources, finding Bigfoot?
	I would collect a group of five individuals who are very astute in the ways of the animals and just plant them in an area for six months.
	And I think if you know what's going on over in Sumatra with the Oranga Pindic, which is
	a small, ape-like, unknown ape-like creature that we're trying to find over there, that's
	exactly what they're trying to do.
	Centuries, in effect, centuries in the woods.
	Right.
	And that's the way you find animals.
	You don't find it...
	Sir Edmund Hillary, when he went for the Yeti in the Himalayas, he went into a valley with
	300 people.
	Now you know that that's going to scare anything away.
	So you've got to plant yourself and become part of the landscape.
	Makes sense to me.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Lauren Coleman.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	This is Kathy from Phoenix.
	Yes.
	And I have a question and a comment.
	Alright.
	I hadn't thought about it for years, but when you mentioned, back to when you mentioned the kangaroos, in the town that I came from, in the early 60s, there was a big to-do about kangaroos hopping around through the fields and what have you around the town.
	Was this in the Midwest?
	Yes, it's a little town called Alton, Illinois.
	Oh, yeah, yeah, sure.
	And half the county was out trying to run this thing down.
	No one ever found it that I heard of, but I thought it was kind of... I had never heard of ghost kangaroos before.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Anyway, the question that I have is, have you read a book or heard of a book called The Beast by Walter J. Sheldon?
	Is it fiction?
	Yes.
	Yeah, no, I'm not real familiar with it.
	Well, it was so funny because I just finished reading this book and then you're on tonight.
	This was an area of land between Alaska and the Canadian border area up there and they found a tooth.
	This is what started the book, the story.
	They found a tooth.
	And it was funny, you just mentioned that you'd have five people.
	In this book, they chose five people to go out.
	Are you kidding?
	Wow.
	No!
	Hunting for this Bigfoot, and they also had the story from the point of view of the Bigfoot, and they portrayed them as a large, tall, bipedal creature, and who were coming into Being able to communicate with each other through signs and certain sounds that didn't have a spoken language.
	And they referred to each other as, oh, say for instance, big male with red hair.
	Uh, they used descriptive words to differentiate.
	Okay, listen here, we're almost out of time here at the top of the hour.
	Do you have a question?
	Yeah, uh, I just wondered if he had heard that and, and, and, and they had a tooth.
	Has there ever been anything like that that has been found?
	Not like no bones or teeth yet.
	Nope.
	Not over in the United States.
	Some things over in Tibet.
	In Tibet?
	Yeah, in Tibet they have different relics and hands and bones.
	Well, what do they do with this evidence?
	I mean, this is significant evidence.
	I would presume that you could get DNA, for example, from a tooth.
	Well, in 1991, on the Unsolved Mysteries program, They examined the Pan Boucher hand at the Berkeley DNA Lab.
	Yes.
	And they came back saying, this is a unknown human-like primate, but we don't know which one it is because we don't have anything to compare it with.
	And this was from the hand of... And so that's as far as it goes.
	That's as far as it goes.
	No, here's something we positively cannot explain, but sorry, we just don't know what it is.
	The show was on in February of 92, and in May of 92, Somebody stole the pembroche hand from the monastery.
	Oh, my God.
	Dr. Coleman, stand by.
	We'll get right back to you, all right?
	Sure thing.
	At the top of the hour, Dr. Lauren Coleman is my guest.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	to note for you on my website one keith uh... in his uh...
	in normal way has managed to get the nightline fax up there so if you want to
	see the actual fax from nightline it's on the site right now also
	you'll note he mentions links at the top of the page uh... if you click on that uh... you will go to the page
	which has a story uh... which is entitled what the a a w h o world health
	organization doesn't want you to know about cannabis.
	So many people requested that I put that up there, that I, uh, talked Keith into putting it up there, so there it is.
	Alright, uh, back now to Dr. Coleman, um, and I've got a fax here, it says, um, Art, I am of Native American background, and I'd like to say that our people have always known of Bigfoot's existence.
	We think of them as another tribe of humans.
	They, as well as we humans, are telepathic and can appear or disappear at will.
	They're highly advanced, intelligent.
	Should be obvious because they, as well as our Native American tribes, live in harmony with Earth by choice.
	Do you agree with that?
	Well, I think that being Eastern Band Cherokee myself, I want to say that different First Nation peoples believe different things.
	So as far as this individual, that may be true among his group of people.
	But some individuals in the West, some individual tribal groups, believe these are flesh and blood creatures.
	Others of them believe they're more of the ghost world.
	But the baseline is that through all of these, you find that there's large hairy creatures that some of the old folklore talks about as cannibals.
	All right, one more for you here.
	Art, in 1978, I had recently graduated from college, was living with my girlfriend in Carterville, which is located in northwest Georgia.
	One Friday evening, we were exploring some old logging roads in the hills north of Carterville at the end of one of the roads, a few hundred feet uphill, We were sitting on the hood of my girlfriend's vehicle, stargazing.
	Suddenly, something emitted an intelligent but primal-sounding scream, very nearly exactly like the one on the tape from Linda, and proceeded to then run through the brush, breaking tree limbs and logging debris as it moved down the hill directly toward our position.
	Now look, I'm a trained geologist, she a biologist, but we were petrified with fear, As the obviously bipedal creature careened down the hill, it was probably about 100 feet away when we made good our escape back down the logging road in reverse.
	We never went up that hill again, even in daylight.
	Yeah, it's a good case and it's pretty typical here.
	You have two scientists who aren't even willing to venture in and see if there's any traces or footprints.
	How are we going to find these creatures?
	Well, it's a good point, but, you know, it's like the moment, Lauren, people just don't think about, man, I'm going to go collect a footprint, or I'm going to try to see if I can get some hair.
	It's more like, I'm going to see if I can get away alive.
	Oh, I know, I know, I totally understand these folks, but on the other side of it, you know, It would be nice sometime if some of those people go back and get real evidence.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Coleman.
	Hi.
	Dr. Art, how are you?
	We're fine.
	I have one question for Art and several for the doctor.
	The first question is, you have a friend with the Native American Chief, I forget his name, Well, I have many in that area.
	Well, you mentioned a few weeks ago, you mentioned that he... Robert Ghost Wolf?
	Yes, that he had went into the Rockies.
	Does that have anything to do, perhaps, with Bigfoot?
	I can't comment on that.
	You cannot?
	Okay.
	No, I'm sorry.
	My questions for the doctor are these.
	Many people believe that because of the concentration of Bigfoot sightings in Washington, that when Mount St.
	Helens erupted, that it took out a large population of the Bigfoot.
	Big feet, actually.
	Do you believe that this is true?
	Oh, I think when Mount St.
	Helens went up, it took a lot of animals out and there probably were a few Bigfoot in there.
	I don't think the population density of Bigfoot is as much as bears, so I don't think it took that many out.
	All right, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Loren Coleman.
	Hi.
	Just Loren Coleman.
	Hi, this is Corey from Colorado Springs.
	Corey, hello.
	Get closer to your phone.
	You're kind of hollow sound.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	I was wondering how much attention the government pays to these studies.
	Well, we kind of already went over that.
	There's no real way to know whether the government has information.
	We don't, with the exception of Freedom of information request, and then you've got to know exactly what to ask for.
	And we certainly know they're not giving grants out for this stuff.
	Yeah.
	But if somebody did find a Bigfoot or something like that, is there anybody paying attention to come in and seize that information and want to hide it from us?
	Yeah, there's a very good point.
	In other words, what evidence has been gathered in the past, Lauren, You mentioned something that was stolen that was a piece of hard evidence.
	Is there much of that going on?
	Not really too much.
	I think that if the government's not too interested in this subject yet, I think if it blossoms into a real discovery, I think you're going to see a lot of governmental bodies around, especially if it's on Forest land, or national parks, or something like that.
	And, or, uh, which you'll, you'll hear the inkling of them being seen near atomic plants, or things like that, where there's kind of green belts around them.
	Or, you know, if one shows up in Area 51, I don't know.
	You know, you're gonna have the government involved.
	But it's right now, they're not really too interested that we're know, that we know about.
	Alright.
	Uh, first time caller on the line, you're on the air with Lauren Coleman.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	My name's Dr. Kansky from New Jersey.
	I was wondering on the subject of evolution, Dr. Coleman, if you're familiar with the work of Dr. Michael Beatty.
	He wrote a popular book, Darwin's Black Box, where he points out that... Not really.
	Okay.
	He basically argues that evolution was a theory that was designed on a gross morphological
	level of characteristics and it has not really been brought to the level of precision to
	be testable in terms of cells and molecules.
	And he thinks that this is one of the very important topics.
	He has no philosophical problem with the possibility of evolution.
	But I think there's another comment to be made in that regard which was introduced by
	Gilbert Chesterton whose essay was collected in Martin Gardner's Great Essays of Science.
	In another essay, he pointed out that if you had two cars that were Almost identical, like say the 98 or 99% similarity of DNA between us and the great apes.
	And if one of these cars suddenly took off like an airplane, whereas the other one didn't, the similarity actually increases the mystery rather than explaining it away.
	And I think that you talked about maybe giant squid are rational.
	I think that, you know, that's the kind of level that things have to be looked at in terms of abstract thought.
	None of the great apes that have been taught sign language have ever, you know, started discussing the justice of their imprisonment with us.
	Well, that is a true statement.
	Although, Doctor, how much intelligence actually have we seen?
	I know that there has been a lot of sign language.
	And how far has it gone?
	I think there's been construction of new concepts by taking words that are new and putting them together, like red ball means apple or something like that.
	And I think what people are looking for is beginning to show up where some of the great apes have taught language to other great apes.
	Uh, or at least sign, you know, sign language so then they can talk to the humans.
	But it's got a long way to go in that area and there does seem to be some, there's just something missing with great, great apes as far as them having any motivation or, or the possibilities or potential for it.
	Well, as you pointed out, they have never yet discussed the terms of their imprisonment.
	Right.
	But there have been great apes that seem to paint pictures of the places that they came from.
	That is true.
	And so that is true.
	That's abstract.
	And just and so is this question.
	If we began to see sentience developing in apes, let us say, just as an example, how do you think man would react socially?
	How would we react?
	Would we begin to reclassify Are these animals give them protections that they now might not enjoy?
	Even rights?
	That sort of thing?
	Perhaps, and I think that your question... Or would we kill them?
	Well, I think you'd have a battle among humans.
	I mean, you have it already among how to treat animals.
	And if you find out that Bigfoot is someplace in between, You're going to have even a bigger battle.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	How do you imagine that coming out given present day society?
	Well, you're going to have a whole bunch of people that'll think that they need to be studied and cut up and put in zoos and there'll be other people that'll say maybe that they're yet another Native Canadians or something.
	I mean, you can look at it two different ways.
	That's right.
	West of the Rockies, you are on the air with Loren Coleman.
	Good morning.
	Hi, let's see, I have a question for Art Bell's guest.
	Yes, he's right here.
	You're going to have to speak up good and loud for us.
	Oh, very good, yes.
	It's about an animal I saw in Taipei, Taiwan, Taipei in about 1986.
	I wanted to ask him about it.
	Would you turn off your radio, please, sir?
	Yes, sorry about that.
	Thank you.
	Yes, my name is Art.
	I'm from Carmel.
	Okay.
	I was on a trip to Taiwan in 86, about 86, and this little animal was in a cage downtown
	Taipei at night, kind of in the tourist area, and there had it for sale, and it was apparently
	for someone to eat, but it was a very strange looking little, almost a fawn looking creature,
	but it was tusked, had tusks about the size of a fawn, had the same kind of molting on
	the back.
	Oh, it sounds like a barking deer type, one of the dik-diks, or relations to that.
	I see.
	The T.J.N. one that I was with, both Chinese, neither seem to know its exact name, but they
	said it was native of Taiwan.
	It was fairly rare, but I always wondered what it was.
	Yeah.
	Well, I think if you get a good mammal guidebook from East Asia, you'll be able to find it.
	They're quite common in the guidebooks.
	There you are.
	You're being trained by modern science.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Lauren Coleman.
	Good morning.
	No, I guess we missed you.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Lauren Coleman.
	Hi, this is Sharon from Georgia.
	Yes, Sharon.
	And when I was a little girl, my mother, I don't know how much truth this is.
	Maybe she was just trying to scare me.
	But she used to tell me about some kind of an animal that would come out at night and she called him a catamount.
	And it was kind of like a kangaroo.
	Catamount is an old regional name for a mountain lion.
	And some of the mountain lion reports talk about them bounding around On their back feet because actually mountain lions can stand up on their back legs.
	But a catamount is a panther.
	I have had in my life exactly one encounter with a mountain lion, and I will never, for the rest of my life, I guarantee, forget it.
	I was coming down the Las Vegas side of the mountain.
	We have a mountain between my little town and Las Vegas, big one, 5,500 feet.
	I was just cresting the top and was on the way down.
	I'm telling you, Lauren, this mountain lion covered both sides of the road.
	This was the longest animal I had ever seen in my entire life.
	It was covering both lanes as it crossed.
	I slammed on the brakes and missed it, but it really scared me.
	Do they grow that long?
	Well, some of them do, especially the ones out west.
	They can get quite big.
	Oh man, this thing was gigantic.
	If I had hit it, I would have been dead.
	Yeah.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Loren Coleman.
	Good morning.
	Hello, I'm going to turn the radio down.
	Yes, please.
	Always right away, folks.
	Come to you without notice.
	There, it's off.
	Okay, where are you?
	Sacramento, California, listening to you on 650 KST AM.
	That's the way to do it.
	My name is Brian.
	Anyway, I was always wondering, If Sasquatch or Bigfoot could not be a descendant of Neanderthal, and I'll listen to his thoughts on that off the air.
	Neanderthals are much shorter than the reported listings of Bigfoot.
	A lot of Russians believe that there may be surviving Neanderthals in East Asia and the Far East and different places like that.
	but it doesn't seem to be at all. Neanderthals used weapons, they used clothing, they used
	a much more cultured way of living that we don't see with Bigfoot. So behaviorally,
	also evidence, height, everything points to these creatures that are called Bigfoot in
	Pacific Northwest not being Neanderthal. But Neanderthals, you know the one caller was
	talking about the strength of monkeys.
	Yes.
	Neanderthals were so strong that they could pick up a linebacker and throw them through the goal post.
	So the strength of some of these quote-unquote prehistoric men and women were quite a lot.
	Alright, let's go east to the Rockies I guess.
	You're on the air with Lauren Coleman, hello.
	Yes, it's Ken from Thunder Bay, Ontario.
	Yes, sir.
	I'm just wondering, you know, with the Bigfoot and Chupacabra, is it some kind of government experiment gone awry?
	Oh, oh, that, you know, there's a possibility that I have not covered.
	Thank you.
	We are experimenting genetically and doing all kinds of things, not all of which work.
	I mean, look at Dolly, the cloning of Dolly.
	I forget, they did a hundred Or 200 or 300 clonings before they finally got it right, they say.
	So is it not logical to presume that either in government black ops programs or even privately in labs around the country, people are tinkering?
	Well, you know, anything's possible.
	We all know that.
	But in my universe of looking at things, there's so many unknowns and such a long, long thousand year history of hairy hominoid reports.
	That it seems not consistent with the evidence.
	But there could be a mix, right?
	In other words... Well, anything's possible, but it's not what I look into and it's not the path I go down.
	So it's not what I see, but I don't diminish the reality for other people of that.
	If you were to take all the collective evidence, Lauren, and do you think you could go into a court of law and prove that there is a bigfoot? Well, it's been done. Ray Crowe in
	the Western Bigfoot Society has, for a few times in this last decade, done mock trials in
	which he's taken bigfoot evidence into court and the jury of people that weren't bigfooters
	have come up with the verdict that this was a real animal. All right, hold it right there. We'll
	be right back with you.
	We're at the bottom of the hour. If you have a question for Lauren Coleman, we've got another
	30 minutes ahead of us. I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Thanks for watching.
	How you coming on those New Year's resolutions?
	Pretty much as... Lauren, any idea what that might be?
	Uh, somebody's recording of a Bigfoot.
	Is it... Is it from Washington State?
	I really at this point couldn't tell you.
	I have collected these as people have sent them to me, but that's a pretty terrifying sound.
	Yeah, it's pretty good.
	You think that might be close to the real thing?
	I'd say 60-40.
	I think like any of these films, any of these I'd like to hear more about who put them together and who's
	sending them in.
	A question for you.
	Do you have any knowledge about sightings of big black birds?
	This is from John in New Jersey.
	Where I live, Lauren, we have the biggest birds I have ever seen in my entire life.
	I mean, these are monsters.
	They're probably 20-30 pound birds.
	They're gigantic.
	They're so big that half the time, they can't get themselves off the ground.
	You know, it's like, it's almost comical watching them try to get into the air.
	They finally do, but I've hit a couple with a car.
	They're so slow.
	Yeah, the turkey vultures and black vultures along the East Coast have been Going more and more in their distribution, so a lot of people who are not familiar with their local bird lore and bird distribution are missing these, and so it sounds like one of those.
	I think that a friend of mine, Mark Hall in Minnesota, who wrote a book Thunderbirds, I think there are definitely some large, bigger-than-condor-like birds.
	Right.
	You know, Alton, Illinois, for instance, that woman that talked about the Kangaroos, I grew up in Decatur, Illinois, and lots of reports through the Midwest, the Ozarks, into the Black Forest of Pennsylvania.
	You have these Thunderbird-like creatures, and of course, being out West, there's a whole lore of them out there, of course.
	Of course.
	All right.
	Back to the phones we go.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Lauren Coleman.
	Hello.
	I'm Martha in California.
	Hi, Martha.
	And I have picked Berries with Bigfoot.
	You have picked berries with Bigfoot.
	Now, um, I have a stoke, so you have to kind of put up with me here.
	You're doing fine.
	I, um, was kidnapped at a young age and kept in the closet, or in the, um, or in the closet, uh, until out grew the closet, and they left the door open.
	Used to keep my arms, uh, with handcuffs.
	So they left the door open and I went outside.
	I didn't know very much.
	Wait a minute, Martha, who kidnapped you?
	Um, they're dead now and I'm working on a case about that.
	So I don't want to tell too much about it.
	Human beings.
	Human beings?
	Yes.
	All right.
	Oh, I see.
	All right.
	I got you.
	All right.
	Okay.
	So I went outside and uh, not knowing what people look like, um, I picked berries, and these were what I think they are vegetarians, and these were plum bushes, wild plum bushes, and at that time there was hardly any food.
	I'm 77, that's when I was about 10 years old.
	Yes ma'am.
	And um, one came up, I walked up and I thought this, uh...
	I was a little bit nervous.
	Hello.
	I'm Martha in California.
	Hi Martha.
	And I have picked berries with Bigfoot.
	You have picked berries with Bigfoot.
	Now I have a stoke so you have to kind of put up with me here.
	You're doing fine.
	I was kidnapped at a young age and kept in the closet or in the Or in a closet.
	Until how it grew the closet.
	And they left the door open.
	Used to keep my arms with handcuffs.
	So they left the door open and I went outside.
	I didn't know very much.
	May I ask you already Martha, who kidnapped you?
	They're dead now and I'm working on a case about that.
	So I don't want to tell too much about everything.
	But human beings.
	Human beings?
	Yes.
	All right.
	Oh, I see.
	All right.
	I thought you were all right.
	Okay.
	So I went outside, and not knowing what people look like, I picked berries.
	And these were, what I think they are, vegetarians.
	And these were plum bushes, wild plum bushes.
	And at that time, there was hardly any food.
	I'm 77.
	That's when I was about 10 years old.
	Yes, ma'am.
	And one came up.
	I walked up, and I thought this was a lady.
	And she was standing on the opposite side of the bush.
	And then she noticed me standing there, and she ran.
	And he had some place.
	So then the next day, I went out again, and, uh, there was a young lady, I call her young lady.
	She, um, they have brown, long brown hair, probably about two feet long, brownish, uh, reddish brown hair, and they smelled high heaven, and, um, she, um, didn't have any, there were no, um, She was going to walk away, and I motioned to her to come back.
	They have a lot of sense.
	And they're not animal, and they're not human.
	Um, I motioned for her to come back, and I screamed at her, and I made a motion to come toward me, and she came back.
	I went inside, and all we had was a piece of bread.
	So I went out, and she didn't know what the bread was, and I tried to put it in her mouth, and I put some in my mouth, so she put it in her mouth, and she spit it out, cause I guess she's a vegetarian.
	Never eaten anything like that before.
	Then another time I went out and it was a man.
	I'm sure because I was handing him some of the plums.
	And I thought, well, I'll save this little one because I know it makes you sick when you eat green plums.
	So I was picking all these and had one little piece underneath my little finger.
	And I gave... This was like a man.
	You can tell the difference in whether they're a man or whether they're a female or young.
	And so I handed them the plums and he practically tore my hand off trying to get the other plum off.
	And then he hit me in the head twice and just before he did that he has a kind of a guttural I knew he was talking to me.
	He was mad because I was not giving him all the plums.
	And he has a kind of a guttural, like a man would be talking down in his stomach.
	And I know that they have a language.
	Let's see, what else I can... You're sure of all this?
	Absolutely.
	It wasn't the imagination of a ten-year-old who had been locked up?
	Absolutely no.
	Absolutely not.
	My son thinks that too.
	And I also have something I want to say to Linda Moulton-Howe about how this silver thing is made.
	Alright, well that would be the subject of another call.
	That's a remarkable story, Doctor.
	Have you heard others like that?
	well i think if we take all of the the abuse
	which is kind of noise you know if we take all of that away
	and it's an important element and variable to look at and
	wonder about this woman and her fantasy world
	things like that but looking at
	the whole idea that ten-year-old uh... in the pacific northwest
	it's very interesting that uh... there's lots and lots of reports of
	kids between six and ten years old being these creatures and these creatures not being afraid
	of them almost as if they know there's no threat from
	children and uh... i almost felt like i was listening to the old
	lady talk about the titanic in the movie yeah uh... it just uh...
	That's a remarkable story, and she sounded very credible to me.
	Yeah, she sounds sincere and like it was just a regular, normal experience for her.
	Exactly.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Lauren Coleman.
	Good morning.
	Good morning to you both.
	This is Tom from Streamline, Illinois.
	Hi, Tom.
	Two quick questions.
	One was, I was wondering if your guest was aware of the story, I believe it was, from Brazil of the giant anaconda.
	Yeah, crashing through the forest, knock down houses.
	Thank you.
	This is one of the areas that Loren Coleman has definitely investigated.
	Gigantic snakes.
	Right, right.
	Loren, what can you tell us?
	Well, there's lots of reports going back to the 1920s of giant anacondas.
	They're huge and over 100 feet long.
	And I think there's this recent report, of course, that people are saying that I don't know.
	The forest and different things like that.
	There's definitely something down there.
	Well, I saw the movie Anaconda, which I thought was ridiculous.
	Yeah, that was an over-exaggeration of a cryptozoological mystery.
	But if I saw a 130-foot snake, boy, am I going the other way.
	Yeah.
	It would be monstrous.
	Caller, anything else?
	Yeah, my second question was, I was wondering how it is that these small monkeys and Neanderthals We're a very fragile animal, and Neanderthal had a bone structure that's twice as thick as ours.
	So that bone structure anchored a muscle structure that was dynamically much heavier than ours.
	So it's just basic physics.
	And we're a very frail creature.
	I think that's why the whole theory that we may be an aquatic ape, one that evolved near water or near the ocean, and that's one of the reasons why we lost our hair.
	You know, we wouldn't have needed that much strength in the early water days.
	So, you know, that's just another theory, but we're a very fragile ape.
	And we'll start all over again.
	Uh, John is your first name, and where are you calling from?
	And this is, uh, from Minnesota.
	Minnesota, okay.
	And, uh, 15 years ago, I'd seen a strange animal chase my cat off the tree.
	And it was just this black, hideous thing.
	And a few years ago, I'd seen a picture, and it kinda looked like a Tasmanian devil.
	Uh-huh.
	But this thing looked like a crossbreed or something, and I didn't know what the heck.
	And I've never seen one before.
	Is there anything that would be in that part of the country?
	Well, it could have been a badger or a wolverine or a koi dog.
	I mean, there's lots of things in Minnesota that sort of look like a fast-moving Tasmanian devil.
	That would chase cat, typically?
	Yeah, wolverines would eat a cat.
	They'd eat a cat.
	Yep.
	You know, so do coyotes.
	That's why mine stay inside.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Loren Coleman.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	How you doing?
	Okay.
	All right, Loren, good morning, gentlemen.
	Where are you?
	This is Graham calling you from the top of the Okanagan, Vernon, British Columbia.
	Yes, sir.
	I'm just barely getting you on 1510 KGA from Spokane.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I actually emailed you a while ago about that.
	I don't know if you got it or not.
	Uh, well, I don't know.
	His mailbox is full.
	I know that.
	Yes, it is.
	No kidding.
	Actually, yeah, I've actually just moved to this part of the country a couple years back from Ogopogoland.
	Well, this is what I was wondering if you know anything about the suspected little critter that we have down in our lake here.
	Oh, yeah.
	Ogopogo is very famous.
	A little lake monster that In many ways it's very similar to the Loch Ness Monster and the Lake Champlain Monster and there's even some good films and photographs of Ogopogo.
	It's got a great long history.
	Yeah, I noticed that you sort of segwayed from Loch Ness directly into the Lake Champlain creature that I wasn't even really aware of and I thought that Ogopogo was one of the more famous We've got to assume one of two things.
	existence I was kind of interested, I wanted to hear if you know anything that you might
	have known about it.
	Yeah, I know about it, I've been there, I've visited your beautiful lake and read the plaque
	and all of that and it's a great place to be, Peachland, right?
	We've got to assume one of two things, if there are monsters in this many lakes, either
	people make up stories about lakes as a normal course of events worldwide, not just here,
	there really are monsters in lakes.
	Yep, and it could be a combination of both.
	Lake Okanagan and Lake Champlain, Loch Ness, are very, very deep lakes.
	Loch Ness may be over 400 feet deep, and so The reports from some of those lakes are much more substantial than some of the shallow lakes that you get people turning big fish into monsters.
	Alright, well that makes me ask a question.
	Recently I've done a number of shows on what appear to be endless holes in the ground.
	The Northwest is replete with them, they're all over the place.
	I've got a picture of one on my website.
	Holes that go so deep that nobody can measure them.
	Now, maybe it sounds a little weird, but is it not possible that there would be creatures that would inhabit these holes more or less as a natural habitat that occasionally might come on up?
	Yeah.
	I've run across reports from Indiana and Kentucky of these deep holes with strange creatures in them, sometimes with claws and different things, almost like lobster-like animals.
	Hmm.
	Kind of big ones, but, uh, yeah.
	I, uh, some of the people who have done research over in Loch Ness
	feel that there's an underwater tunnel between Loch Ness and
	the ocean, and, uh, there's all kinds of possibilities
	and sure, sure those things probably have We are now discovering that at the very
	deepest parts of our ocean where there is volcanic venting, there is
	life.
	Which seems to say that wherever there is an environment, no matter how harsh it may seem to be, somehow, there's some kind of life that adapts to it and thrives in it.
	Yeah.
	Nature will find a way.
	Precisely.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Loren Coleman.
	Good morning.
	Yeah, Art, this is O.J.
	I'm a truck driver.
	Where are you?
	I'm near Carthage, Missouri right now.
	Okay.
	About a year ago, somebody faxed you about finding an old trunk and there was a bunch of newspapers in it from the 20s or 30s.
	Yes.
	And they had found an Indian burial ground in Wisconsin or Minnesota, somewhere up there.
	And amongst the, when they were digging it up, they found skeletons that were eight,
	nine feet tall.
	That's right.
	Do you recall that?
	I do, yes, of course.
	Did you ever hear any more from them, people?
	Never, in other words.
	How about the doctors, do you know anything about that?
	There's quite a few stories from the turn of the century about giant skeletons being
	found in Minnesota, Wisconsin, all the way over to Greenland.
	And we're trying to dig up some of these stories because it would be great to backtrack and
	find some of these bones because they seem to fit right in with the Bigfoot picture.
	Doctor, do you have any books that you have written?
	Me?
	Yes, you have two, right?
	No, I have about eight.
	You have about eight books?
	I have eight others in the human service area, but Mysterious America, Curious Encounters, Tom Flick, and The Search for the Yeti.
	This book coming out in April of 1999 with Patrick Weedge, a science writer from Omni.
	It doesn't have a title yet, but it's going to look at the international Bigfoot picture around the world.
	Are these generally available, the ones that are already out, are they in circulation at bookstores?
	Well, Faber and Faber in Boston may have a few copies, but most of them are out of print and found in old bookstores or, you know, different places like that.
	Uh, what about if somebody wants to get hold of you?
	Do you have a website?
	Do you have an email address?
	Yeah, email address would be great.
	Okay.
	It's, um, L-V-O-L-E-M-A.
	Wait, it was slower.
	Do that again, please.
	Sure.
	L. L. And then the first part of my name, Coleman without the N on it.
	C-O.
	C-O-L-E-M-A.
	Yes.
	And then the numeral one.
	Yes.
	Main, like the state with the E on the end of it, so main.rr.com.
	And also, I'm in most search engines.
	L-C-O-L-E-M-A-1, main.rr.com.
	Right.
	Alright.
	There are many people, I'm sure, who will want to communicate with you.
	About much of what you've said tonight, and ask you questions and so forth.
	So that is the way to do it, folks.
	Yeah.
	Great.
	All right.
	One more.
	I think we have time for one more.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Loren Coleman.
	Hello.
	Good morning, gentlemen.
	Good morning.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Orlando, Florida.
	OK, you're going to have to yell at us.
	You're not too loud.
	You're going to be better now.
	Yes, so much.
	OK, good.
	I have a question.
	Back in the mid-50s, I recall as a child, there was a discovery out on either the San Nicolas Islands or On Catalina Island.
	And they discovered a lead coffin there with bodies in there.
	I think one was 10 or 12 foot tall.
	Well preserved.
	Do you recall that?
	I've not heard of that one at all.
	A friend of mine reiterated that same story to me.
	He was from the same area.
	We were talking about that just the other day.
	I was just curious if you'd heard of it.
	A lead coffin?
	A lead lined coffin.
	You wouldn't even want to consider what would have to be buried in a lead-lined coffin.
	Indeed.
	I just thought he might have heard something about it.
	Good story.
	Thank you.
	Yes, thank you.
	All right, any final words for all the people out there who probably say this guy's a crackpot?
	Well, I think the evidence speaks for itself, and we're turning up, you know, 10 to 20 new mammals a year.
	We have to just keep looking.
	I appreciate your being here.
	I appreciate your expert testimony, Lauren, and we'll have you back because we're always bumping into new...
	Weird things here.
	Great art.
	It's been fun.
	Take care, my friend.
	Take care.
	All right, that's Loren Coleman, who is a leading cryptozoologist in the whole world.
	And so I suppose if you want to say, as many will, oh boy, it was a crackpot, go ahead.
	But he's a scientist, and you just heard it from his own mouth.
	Well, that's it.
	In some markets, we've got an hour of open lines ahead.
	In others,

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