Loren Coleman, cryptozoologist and Eastern Band Cherokee, debunks psychic projection theories about Bigfoot while citing the 1968 Minnesota Iceman case, Patterson’s credible footage, and global hair/fur samples. He dismisses Neanderthal links due to height and behavior gaps but acknowledges children’s consistent sightings near burial grounds. Coleman also ties chupacabra reports to primate attacks, references WHO’s suppressed cannabis claims, and speculates on government suppression if evidence emerged in protected areas like Area 51. Mock trials by Ray Crowe’s Western Bigfoot Society support his argument, suggesting Bigfoot’s existence is plausible but requires rigorous scientific validation. [Automatically generated summary]
Lauren Coleman, who is one of the world's leading cryptozoologists.
Animal guys.
I'll tell you more about them shortly.
So that is straight ahead, and that will probably be the central topic for tonight.
And it's a good one, too, because I've got an awful lot of questions about what animals in general have been doing lately, and a lot of stories, too, latest out of India.
Very credible stuff with regard to Yeti or Bigfoot and many of the other mythological question mark animals that we talk about.
Just want to remind you of a couple of things.
News-wise, there's not much except Iraq where we are not going in to inspect what we forced.
And so they're probably moving the crates out as fast as they can.
I'm not sure what we've won over there.
There was a definite reaction from the good people at Nightline at ABC.
They sent me a fax tonight.
Nightline sent me a fax.
In fact, I had it posted on the website.
It says, Dear Mr. Bell, we're impressed with the responsiveness of your listeners.
They have successfully tied up our fax machine and hurt our ability to send faxes within ABC News.
Please don't put our fax number on the air.
If your listeners are anxious to be in touch with us, please have them write to us at ABC News Nightline, 1717 DeSalles Street, D-E-S-A-L-E-S DeSales, I guess.
That's DeSales Street Northwest, Washington, D.C., 20036.
Thanks for your understanding.
Sincerely, the Nightline staff.
So I guess they noticed.
All right, we're going to plunge right into the world of animals in a moment.
Ab.
As I said, he is one of the world's leading cryptozoologists, an honorary member of several international cryptozoological organizations.
He is a life member of the International Society of Cryptozoology.
Coleman has written books and more than 100 articles on the subject, has appeared frequently on radio and TV programs, has lectured from Idaho to London, has been both on and off camera, consultant to NBC's Unsolved Mysteries, A ⁇ E's Ancient Mysteries, and In Search of Discovery Channels in the Unknown and other reality-based programs, underlying reality.
He contributes a bimonthly cryptozoology column on the trail to the London-based international magazine Fortune Times and Mysterious World to Fate.
On October 20th, 1997, occasion of the 30th anniversary of the famous filming of the California Sasquatch, Lauren Coleman was one of the first 10 inductees into the new Roger Patterson Memorial Bigfoot Museum in Portland, Oregon.
Coleman has been investigating in the field and in the library cryptozoological evidence and folklore since the Yeti caught his interest in 1960, which led him, I guess, to research mysterious panther sightings, reports of apes in the American Midwest, other than the ones that can be seen, for example, on the streets of some major Midwest cities.
He's traveled to 45 states throughout Canada, Mexico, and the Virgin Islands, interviewing witnesses of lake monsters, Sasquatch, giant snakes, mystery feline, phantom kangaroo, phantom kangaroos, really?
A thunderbird and other creature reports and folklore.
His first articles published in 1969, then he went on to write two books with Jerome Clark, The Unidentified and Creatures of the Outer Edge.
OS is my kind of guy, I can tell.
Lauren Coleman has a forthcoming book, April of 99, on the international situation regarding Bigfoot and related humanoids, and a journal, The Cryptozoologist, slated for publication at the end of 98.
So I could go on and on and on.
He has many, many, many years of study, academic and investigative work in the field to his credit, has been all over the media.
I've been looking forward to this one for quite a while, and I'm probably going to start out with an area that I'm not sure you're comfortable with, but there are two things.
One, we have been getting all these incredible reports, Lauren, of dolphins and whales and other mammal Sea creatures literally running out of the sea as if they were being chased out by something.
And there's been too much of it lately.
Now I get a story tonight from Honolulu that a Navy ship is set to begin blasting high-volume sounds intentionally at humpback whales.
Even after a federal judge rejected environmentalist complaints, they're going to let the Navy go ahead.
Now, this just doesn't seem like a brilliant idea to me.
Well, I think that I heard you say something about animals attacking people and dolphins beaching and all of that, of course, really involves without people there, you wouldn't know that was happening.
So we know that for hundreds and hundreds of years, these kinds of things have been happening.
I think the involvement in humans sending sonic beams into water is probably not the greatest idea.
But I've noticed, you know, over the years, if you stand back a little, a lot of it can be related to the weather.
A lot of it can be related to the temperature of the water.
And of course, humans are part of the environment.
So if they're burning up all the forest in Indonesia, then you're going to get more animals coming out of the jungle attacking people or orangutans being shot.
Well, I've noticed the whole situation in the West has really been pretty dramatic lately because humans are getting deeper into wilderness areas where they were not before.
So you have joggers being attacked, hunters being attacked.
And it's mainly because man is the encroacher there.
It's not the mountain lions are coming out.
It's that we're going deeper into wilderness areas that we weren't building houses on the edges of wetlands and different things like that.
I mean, I remember during the mid-70s where there was quite a few different people looking at different animal attacks and relating them to actually the phases of the moon.
And we have a big solar eclipse tomorrow and, you know, a new moon, so maybe we'll have more animal attacks if you believe in that theory.
But, you know, these kinds of things have been happening for years and years and years.
It's just that when they come in waves and they do seem to clump, then people think, well, my God, this is all new.
And maybe that's not quite exactly what's going on.
No, I think there's actually creatures in the Pacific Northwest that are unidentified primates.
And I have, you know, I think there's a lot of hoaxing and there's a lot of misidentification in different parts of the rest of the United States.
But in the Pacific Northwest, there's a creature that's anywhere between six to nine feet tall that's bipedal that leaves behind footprints with five toes.
You know, giant footprints.
That's why they call it Bigfoot.
And before that, up in Canada, it was called Sasquatch and still is.
Well, hoaxers forget that people that really know footprints well, which we're talking a lot about, some police investigators, forensic scientists, and different folks like that, as well as anthropologists and primatologists, the footprint leaves specific cracks and marks that are very related to it being an animate object.
So if you have a person that has a static, either a piece of concrete that's shaped like a big footprint or like the wooden things you were talking about, those show up as really much more, they're obvious fakes and people can tell them.
And also where they show up and, of course, who's finding them, how credible are the witnesses.
There are all kinds of different forensic investigative techniques that we use as well as psychological ones to see who these folks are.
John Green and some of my other investigative friends have found over the years that there's probably upwards of four or five good stories from the Pacific Northwest of people shooting them.
But they shoot them, and then they get very freaked out and scared that, well, I've shot something that's maybe a man, maybe man-like.
Well, you know the famous case of the Minnesota Iceman where Frank Hansen had this in 1968, you know, a carnival or a shopping center exhibit of a man frozen in ice, you know, like a Bigfoot-type creature.
Oh, yes.
And he said that there was a mysterious owner, a millionaire, who was behind it.
And it was when he crossed back and forth into Canada that the Smithsonian told the FBI to investigate it, and they replaced the real body with the fake that they had constructed in Hollywood.
The FBI, when they got involved, Frank Hanson said, apparently in the middle of the night, he switched the body.
So the local police department and FBI became disinterested because they saw that this was a fake.
And before that, when Ivan Sanderson and Bernard Heuvelmans had showed up and taken pictures and smelled the rotting flesh, we knew that it was much more real.
So the whole idea that there are no bodies, that there have not been any bodies, that there's no hair samples or things like that, it's just not true.
But we're still really at the beginning of the stages of looking at Bigfoot.
If you look at the securing of mountain gorillas, it took over 60 years to come up with a mountain gorilla after expedition after expedition went to Africa specifically looking for mountain gorillas.
Well, the modern era of Bigfoot really starts in 1958, so we're still at the beginning stages, but for Americans who are everything they have to get right away, it's fast food thinking.
There's been fur that has been said to be unknown primate, near human, and hair samples all the way from China or Nepal, for those kinds, for the Yeti and the Yarin and the Wildman, and some of the samples from Ohio of what's called the Grassman there.
There's a new book called Bigfoot in Ohio that's really good.
Very similar to what we're finding among gorillas.
You know, there's been, they use vacant buildings.
They don't use caves as much as some other types of animals, but there has been incidents where different beds and different kind of nesting structures have been found in the Pacific Northwest and British Columbia.
Yep, there have been, and unfortunately, last October on the 30th anniversary, there Was this whole story about that a guy named John Chambers in Hollywood had produced it, and John Landis knew all about that?
Well, a woman named Bobby Short, a great investigator in Southern California, went out and did an interview with John Chambers.
And John Chambers, who had won an Academy Award for doing the makeup for Planet of the Apes, told her that he let that story go on for years because it was actually wonderful publicity within the Hollywood community for him to act like he was responsible for the public.
Yeah, there are a lot of people who would say, look, any investigator going out with a camera, actually looking for a Bigfoot, what are the odds of that really happening unless he had something else in mind?
And because he was actually looking for Bigfoot, it hurts his case when he comes back with the video.
Grover Krantz, who's an anthropologist out west and has been talking about Bigfoot and wrote a book about Bigfoot, believes that it's Giganthopithecus blackie, which is a giant ape that may be 7, 8, 10 feet tall.
Fossil finds really only exist in India and China and Vietnam.
Four jawbones and about 1,000 teeth.
So nobody knows the real structure of this animal, but anthropologists have speculated that a fun theory.
Because it's really the only big primate that seems to be around that fits that.
These creatures were much more bipedal, much more upright, and seemed to be closer in terms of the behaviors as well as the structure that we find in Bigfoot.
Because like you're saying, Bigfoot seems to be a very intelligent animal, a very intelligent primate.
One of the reasons that they're able to stay alive for so long is that...
Yeah, I think that that's one of the problems that when you have a piece of DNA and you take it in the lab and you have a lab come back and saying, well, this isn't human, but it's almost human, and yet we don't have a creature to base the sample on, so we don't know what it is.
That doesn't tell us anything.
And I mean, Grover Krantz, there's this big debate out west, which you may have heard through your show over the years, is, you know, did we kill it or do we just go photograph it?
Well, I think he wanted, what he said was, I believe, that the first Bigfoot should be killed, and then there should be the death penalty for anybody who would kill one after that.
I think there's ways to take DNA samples with, you know, tranquilize it, keep it in captivity a little bit, take samples, bring in, fly in some of the best anthropologists and zoologists in the world, make sure that it's still verifiable, and then make a sanctuary for part of the wilderness that it's in and the death penalty or whatever.
But I think there's other ways Short of killing them because we don't really know what they are.
We don't know how close to Homo they are, Homo sapiens.
Now, look, people, again, ridicule and joke, but gee, Lauren, there have been endless reports, beginning in Puerto Rico, then South America, then Mexico, even the southwest U.S., of goats with all the blood removed from them, two bite necks on the neck, and not only goats, but other animals, and even some humans.
And I'll tell you, Lauren, in Mexico, they don't laugh about chupacabra.
And I think that, you know, because it's been in the Hispanic-Latino community, people have only now beginning to, you know, realize that it's a very, very widespread phenomenon.
And it's been there quite a few years.
And it's only recently.
In my book, Curious Encounters, I talked about things that I called creatures of the Black Lagoon, which witnesses said look like the Gillman, look like reptilian creatures with spikes in its head and very chupacabra-like.
And we've had these reports for decades, and it's just when some great newspaper journalists in Puerto Rico started putting it all together that I think you've got now a phenomenon.
Chupacabra, I think, by the way, a lot of people talk about it in terms of aliens, in terms of reptilian things, but if you talk to the people that have seen chupacabra, if you read some of the reports, here again you have a bipedal creature that is covered with hair.
So we're once again, it's almost like a relative Bigfoot, if you want to say that, but we're once again in the primate area and not in the reptile area.
And I think a lot of people think that chupacabras are some kind of smooth-skinned reptilian alien.
I've seen these photographs on television of these maniacal people who go down in these shark cages.
And usually, a shark comes and hits the cage hard enough to either rattle it open and eat the guy or girl and or bend the cage in a way that's really frightening.
He was going down in one of those things, and in comes, it wasn't a real giant, it wasn't the classic giant squid, but it was just a Humboldt, six, seven-foot-long squid, and it gets in the cage with him and bites him on the leg.
Yeah, I think, well, since about the 1890s, I've been able to track it back.
Americans have been reporting kangaroos.
And the biggest flap that occurred happened in Chicago starting in the 70s when two police officers came around the corner and they saw a kangaroo in an alley and it started punching them.
And so for the next two weeks, all across northern Illinois and into Indiana, you had very credible witnesses seeing kangaroos hopping across their yards, leaving three-toed footprints.
Florida and the South has what I've called napes for years and what locally different people call boogers or swamp apes or skunk apes.
In Louisiana, you have the Honey Island swamp monster.
Really?
Of course, there's the famous Mothman from West Virginia.
In Massachusetts, for many years, you had different reports of the Dober Demon, a little kind of four-foot-tall orange creature with a round orange head.
And then all up one of the biggest things in the East, of course, is these reports of black panthers, which seem to be not mountain lions, but actually melanistic, you know, black felines, which are not supposed to exist.
And there's hundreds and hundreds of reports of those.
All right, well, we'll get into more detail about these animals, but before the hour ended, I was sort of inquiring of you.
One could imagine several possibilities.
One, that we have a new animal or animals on Earth, that they have evolved and they are simply here, if you believe in evolution.
I mean, it could happen.
That's one.
Two would be that these creatures are from elsewhere and that they pop in and out.
I mean, there's been a million stories about dimensional holes and things like the chupacabra and things that just don't seem natural to Earth popping out and popping back again.
Right.
What do you generally subscribe to?
I mean, or that they've been here all along is obviously number three and most likely, I suppose.
Yeah, I mean, I have a real, I mean, I think when I was younger and just getting into this, I looked into the psychic projection of the collective unconscious.
In other words, were these animals projections of us and were they related to that?
And I've really rejected that over the years because it's sort of using one unknown to explain another, which I think is a real problem.
So let's look at chupacabra, for instance.
You have a situation where I think you have patterns of wildlife that increase and decrease.
And if you look at this globally, as far as anyway, the North America area with chupacabra, you may have had different reports and different kind of breeding populations of chupacabras different places.
And there's been an explosion.
And we don't exactly know what that's caused.
Maybe more people having more wildlife that they can suck the blood out of.
How sure are we that all of these bodies that have been put on display by Mexican television, Puerto Rican television, even some U.S. TV, actually have had all the blood taken from them?
What happens after a livestock sits there for a while is the blood collagulates.
It appears to be drained of blood.
There's all kinds of different things.
I think that Linda Howe obviously knows from investigating the cattle mutilation phenomena all through the 70s that there's natural predators like coyotes, different hawks and other things that are killing some of these animals, leaving them dead for 24 hours, 48 hours until their owners find them.
And sometimes it's not related to anything mysterious.
It's just a natural predator.
And I think all of those natural predator deaths are being grouped under chupacabra.
So even though I sense that there's some reality behind chupacabra, I think that this whole grouping of every mutilation, every blood draining, every animal that's being killed by something is a chupacabra.
It's just the usual thing that happens at the beginning of any wave like this.
It's called the skunk ape, and people who see it are scared of it, and it says it stinks, and they go away from it, but it's not driving people away from it because of the stink.
It's just that's part of its natural odor.
But the skunk ape has, there's two different variations on the skunk ape.
One is they're large and Bigfoot-like, you know, bipedal, all of that.
But the more prominent skunk apes are chimpanzee-like creatures that seem to go around on all fours, look like chimps, leave a footprint with a toe out to the side.
And that very much mirrors reports all over the bottomlands and swamps of the South of these apes-like creatures that are not Bigfoot.
No, there is no missing link that exists now because we're all evolved from things way back when fossil forms show us that we all have to be end results of these.
So there's no missing link that exists now.
These animals, the Bigfoot in the West, probably are a cousin, a relative, you know, somebody you would.
Because they, you know, so I think it's just dangerous to say missing links because people really think that from that missing link that then we can evolve some other species.
And we're not quite sure that it happens that way.
Well, new species do evolve all the time because of environmental constraints, but sure they do show up all the time, so I'm not disagreeing with that.
But the more complex the organism, the higher the primate, the less evolution, the less new species would happen very rapidly.
I think that Carlton Kuhn once said that who are we to say that the Yeti is not as bright as we are because if they're close to water, they don't work, they don't pay taxes, and they just get to live a life.
Not to say that they're not brighter than us.
He was being somewhat facetious.
Well, they don't have TV or the Internet or a heater in their little So it all depends on what your definition of pleasure and comfort is But I mean I understand what you're saying if if mankind kills themselves though they'll probably kill these things before they can evolve to any kind of intelligent being But it is possible that one day one animal,
a dolphin, perhaps a monkey, an ape, something or another will take the leap, I'm going back to Planet of the Apes and suddenly talk or begin to communicate in a rational way with humans.
And who's to say that the flashing of the skin patterns of the giant squid are not trying to communicate something to us, that the clicks of the dolphin already are saying things that we don't understand?
But a scientist, Dale Russell, who studied dinosaurs up in Canada, felt that, you know, just through a slip of nature that we could have had bipedal, very brainy reptiles, you know, walking around among us.
Well, almost all of the northern lakes, a little belt around the world, have reported a certain kind of lake monster that has a big hump on the back or two humps and a long neck.
The surgeon's photo, the one that everybody looks at of the Loch Ness monster, which there was a big controversy, a deathbed confession that it was a hoax and all of that.
Well, investigators have done all of the work and found out that that's probably an animate object in the water, but maybe an otter.
So the pictures that are much more telling from Loch Ness show this huge, huge hump.
And the running theory is that these things are giant otters or that they're prehistoric whales that may have survived, that are long and thin and look like a serpent.
That's why you get the whole notion of sea serpent.
Well, it hasn't been publicized too much, but NOVA is going to have a program come on in the near future in which they went over there, very skeptical.
NOVA, of course, is known for a science program.
Yeah, it's a good science program, but it debunks a lot of people.
And so they went over there to try to disprove Loch Ness, where they came back and they're going to shock everybody by their program is going to say that there is a Loch Ness monster.
Yep, there's all kinds of different lakes in the United States that have monsters, but probably the most famous investigated by a guy named Joseph Tsarzynski is Lake Champlain, which, of course, runs through, you know, between Vermont and New York and up into Canada.
And it's a very similar-looking creature to the Loch Ness monster with the long neck and the big body.
And, you know, there's probably six or seven good reports of it every year.
Are there any reports that you're aware of of any of these creatures, don't protect them in your answer, Bigfoot to lake monsters consuming human beings?
Well, I think it's very interesting what you said, because if they would have any evidence, any biotechnical evidence of it, it's probably in some file someplace.
And how many of us think about doing freedom of information requests to the darn right?
Your previous caller raised a very important point.
Actually, two points I wish to discuss.
First of all, a lot of the animal attacks you're talking about might be explained by the fact that more and more people are going into the wilderness unarmed.
Unlike previously, predators are not stupid and they know this.
Secondly, the suppression of evidence of hominoids is something that fits in with a lot of other topics you have on the show.
You had a guest previously on your show, Lloyd Pye.
And in it, he promulgates the theory that hominoids, as we know them, are the natural descendants of the planet Earth, and that human beings are created, genetically engineered creatures, self-evident in their own anatomy, and that that's what hominoids have been kind of pushed to the edges, but they are the natural descendants of the Earth.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Lauren Coleman.
Hi.
unidentified
Hi, Dr. Coleman.
That's nice to speak to you again.
Dr. Coleman, in the 70s, I worked for a research lab, and we used to get wild rhesus monkeys from South Africa to do research on.
And my job was to handle the animals, to take them out of the cage for different types of tests and things.
And during the courses that I had to take to be an animal handler, I was informed that they're ten times, a wild monkey is ten times stronger than a man.
Now, a lot of these monkeys would weigh about 25 pounds and that makes them about a 250 pound strong person.
And when I tried taking them out of the cage with double thick leather gloves, it was showed to me by a 25-pound monkey how very strong they can be.
During these tests, they would have their canine teeth removed because they had a tendency to bite.
They were from the wild.
And they didn't particularly like the research work.
The point to them getting to is that I go along with what you say about capturing or if you're going to shoot one of these things, shoot it with a knockout, an immobilizing compound of some kind.
But then once you've done that, you talk about monsters and scary things and say this, Bigfoot doesn't want to be domesticated.
Let us suppose that somebody, probably the government, they do this kind of thing all the time, suddenly graced you with a million dollars and said, settle the issue.
Find or declare as not real Bigfoot.
How would you go about, with enough resources, finding Bigfoot?
I would collect a group of five individuals who are very astute in the ways of the animals and just plant them in an area for six months.
And I think if you know what's going on over in Sumatra with the oranga pindek, which is a small ape-like, unknown ape-like creature that we're trying to find over there, that's exactly what they're trying to do.
I hadn't thought about it for years, but when you mentioned the kangaroos, in the town that I came from in the early 60s, there was a big to-do about kangaroo hopping around through the fields and what have you around the town.
And they also had the story from the point of view of the Bigfoot.
And they portrayed them as a large, tall, bipedal creature who were coming into being able to communicate with each other through signs and certain sounds.
They didn't have a spoken language.
And they referred to each other as, oh, say, for instance, big male with red hair.
And they came back saying, this is an unknown, human-like primate, but we don't know which one it is because we don't have anything to compare it with.
And this was from the hand of...
That's as far as it goes.
No, here's something we positively cannot explain, but The show was on in February of 92, and in May of 92, somebody stole the Pambouche hand from the monastery.
To Note for you on my website one, Keith in his normal way, has managed to get the Nightline facts up there.
So if you want to see the actual facts from Nightline, it's on the site right now.
Also, you'll note he mentions links at the top of the page.
If you click on that, you will go to the page which has a story which is entitled What the WHO, World Health Organization, doesn't want you to know about cannabis.
So many people requested that I put that up there, that I talked Keith into putting it up there, so there it is.
All right, back now to Dr. Coleman.
And I've got a fax here.
It says, Art, I am of Native American background, and I'd like to say that our people have always known of Bigfoot's existence.
We think of them as another tribe of humans.
They, as well as we humans, are telepathic and can appear or disappear at will.
They're highly advanced, intelligent.
Should be obvious because they, as well as our Native American tribes, live in harmony with Earth by choice.
Well, I think that being Eastern Band Cherokee myself, I want to say that different First Nation peoples believe different things.
So as far as this individual, that may be true among his group of people, but some individuals in the West, some individual tribal groups, believe these are flesh and blood creatures.
Others of them believe they're more of the ghost world.
But the baseline is that through all of these you find that there's large, hairy creatures that some of the old folklore talks about as cannibals.
Some of the new folklore talks about them as just killing livestock and leaving big footprints.
Art in 1978, I had recently graduated from college, was living with my girlfriend in Carterville, which is located in northwest Georgia.
One Friday evening, we were exploring some old logging roads in the hills north of Carterville.
At the end of one of the roads, a few hundred feet uphill, we were sitting on the hood of my girlfriend's vehicle, stargazing.
Suddenly, something emitted an intelligent but primal sounding scream, very nearly exactly like the one on the tape from Linda, and proceeded to then run through the brush, breaking tree limbs and logging debris as it moved down the hill directly toward our position.
Now look, I'm a trained geologist, she a biologist, but we were petrified with fear as the obviously bipedal creature careened down the hill.
It was probably about 100 feet away when we made good our escape back down the logging road in reverse.
We never went up that hill again, even in daylight.
Well, it's a good point, but, you know, it's scary.
It's like the moment, Lauren, people just don't think about, man, I'm going to go collect a footprint or I'm going to try to see if I can get some hair.
It's more like, I'm going to see if I can get away alive.
I totally understand these folks, but on the other side of it, you know, it would be nice sometime if some of those people go back and get real evidence.
Many people believe that because of the concentration of Bigfoot sightings in Washington, that when Mountain St. Helens erupted, that it took out a large population of the Bigfoot.
And we certainly know they're not giving grants out for this stuff.
But if somebody did find a Bigfoot or something like that, is there anybody paying attention to come in and seize that information and want to hide it from us?
In other words, what evidence has been gathered in the past, Alarn?
Has it been, you know, we talk a lot about the men in black people come steal things, and you mentioned something that was stolen that was a piece of hard evidence.
I think the government's not too interested in this subject yet.
I think if it blossoms into a real discovery, I think you're going to see a lot of governmental bodies around, especially if it's on forest land or national parks or something like that, which you hear the inkling of them being seen near atomic plants or things like that where there's kind of green belts around them.
Or, you know, if one shows up in Area 51, I don't know.
You know.
You're going to have the government involved.
But it's right now they're not really too interested that we know about.
I was wondering on the subject of evolution, Dr. Coleman, if you're familiar with the work of Dr. Michael Beatty.
He wrote a popular book, Darwin's Black Box, where he points out that he basically argues that evolution was a theory that was designed on the gross morphological level of characteristics, and it has not really been brought to the level of precision to be testable in terms of cells and molecules.
And he thinks that this is one of the very important topic.
He has no philosophical problem with the possibility of evolution.
But I think there's another comment to be made in that regard, which was introduced by Gilbert Chesterton, whose essay was collected in Martin Gardner's Great Essays of Science.
In another essay, he pointed out that if you had two cars that were almost identical, like say the 98 or 99% similarity of DNA between us and the great apes, and if one of these cars suddenly took off like an airplane, whereas the other one didn't, the similarity actually increases the mystery rather than explaining it away.
And I think that you talked about maybe giant squid or rational.
I think that that's the kind of level that things have to be looked at in terms of abstract thought.
None of the great apes that have been taught sign language have ever started discussing the justice of their imprisonment with us.
Well, I think there's been construction of new concepts by taking words that they knew and putting them together, like red ball means apple or something like that.
And I think what people are looking for is beginning to show up where some of the great apes have taught language to other great apes, or at least sign language so then they can talk to the humans.
But it's got a long way to go in that area, and there does seem to be some, there's just something missing with great apes as far as them having any motivation or the possibilities or potential for it.
Well, you're going to have a whole bunch of people that will think that they need to be studied and cut up and put in zoos, and there'll be other people that'll say maybe that they're yet another native Canadians or something.
And I was on a trip to Taiwan in 86, about 86, and this little animal was in a cage downtown Taipei at night, kind of in the tourist area, and there had it for sale, and it was apparently for someone to eat, but it was a very strange-looking little, almost a fawn-looking creature, but it was tusked, had tusks, about the size of a fawn, had the same kind of molting on the back.
And when I was a little girl, my mother, I don't know how much truth this is, maybe she was just trying to scare me, but she used to tell me about some kind of an animal That would come out at night, and she called him a catty mount.
Oh, you're a catty mount is an old regional name for a mountain lion.
And some of the mountain lion reports talk about them bounding around on their back feet because actually mountain lions can stand up on their back legs.
But in my universe of looking at things, there's so many unknowns and such a long, long thousand-year history of hairy hominoid reports that it seems not consistent with the evidence.
Ray Crowe in the Western Bigfoot Society has for a few times in this last decade done mock trials in which he's taken Bigfoot evidence into court and the jury of people that weren't Bigfooters have come up with the verdict that this was a real animal.
Yeah, the turkey vultures and black vultures along the east coast have been going more and more in their distribution.
So a lot of people who are not familiar with their local bird lore and bird distribution are missing these.
And so it sounds like one of those.
I think that a friend of mine, Mark Hall in Minnesota, who wrote a book, Thunderbirds, I think there are definitely some large, bigger than condor-like birds through Alton, Illinois, for instance, that woman that talked about the kangaroos.
I grew up in Decatur, Illinois, and lots of reports through the Midwest, the Ozarks, into the Black Forest of Pennsylvania.
You have these Thunderbird-like creatures.
And of course, being out west, there's a whole lore of them out there, of course.
So I went outside, and not knowing what people look like, I picked berries.
And these were, what I think they are, vegetarians.
And these were plum bushes, wild plum bushes.
And at that time, there was hardly any food.
I'm 77.
That's when I was about 10 years old.
And one came up.
I walked up, and I thought this was a lady.
And she was standing on the opposite side off the bush.
And then she noticed me standing there, and she ran.
And he had someplace.
So then the next day, I went out again, and there was a young lady.
I call her young lady.
They have brown, long brown hair, probably about two feet long, brownish, reddish-brown hair, and they smelled high heaven.
And she didn't have any, there were no plums.
So she was going to walk away, and I motioned to her to come back.
They have a lot of scents, and they're not animal, and they're not human.
I motioned for her to come back, and I screamed at her, and I made a motion to come toward me, and she came back.
I went inside, and all we had was a piece of bread.
So I went out, and she didn't know what the bread was, and I tried to put it in her mouth, and I put some in my mouth, so she put it in her mouth, and she spit it out, because I guess she's a vegetarian, never eaten anything like that before.
Then another time I went out, and it was a man, I'm sure, because I was handing him some of the plums, and I thought, well, I'll save this little one because I know it makes you sick when you eat green plums.
So I was picking all these and had one little piece underneath my little finger.
And I gave, this was like a man.
You can tell the difference in whether they're a man or whether they're female or young.
And so I handed them the plums, and he practically tore my hand off trying to get the other plum off.
And then he hit me in the head twice.
And just before he did that, he has a kind of a guttural.
I knew he was talking to me.
He was mad because I was not giving him all the plums.
And he has a kind of a guttural like a man would be talking under, uh, down in his stomach.
Well, I think if we take all of the abuse, which is kind of noise, you know, if we take all of that away, and it's an important element and variable to look at and wonder about this woman and her fantasy worlds and things like that.
But looking at the whole idea that 10-year-olds in the Pacific Northwest, it's very interesting that there's lots and lots of reports of kids between six and ten years old seeing these creatures and these creatures not being afraid of them.
Almost as if they know there's no threat from children.
One was, I was wondering if your guest was aware of the story, I believe it was from Brazil, of the giant anaconda that came crashing through the forest, knocked down houses.
Well, there's lots of reports going back to the 1920s of giant anacondas.
They're huge, you know, over 100 feet long.
And I think there's this recent report, of course, that people are saying it's 130 feet long and, you know, did a swat through the forest and different things like that.
But there are, if I saw 130-foot snake, boy, am I going the other way.
It would be monstrous.
Caller, anything else?
unidentified
Yeah, my second question was, I was wondering how it is that these small monkeys and Neanderthals have such a greater physical capability strength-wise than humans do.
And Neanderthal had a bone structure that's twice as thick as ours.
So that bone structure anchored a muscle structure that was dynamically much heavier than ours.
So it's just basic physics, you know, and we're a very frail creature.
I think that's why the whole theory that we may be an aquatic ape, one that evolved near water or near the ocean, and that's one of the reasons why we lost our hair, you know, we wouldn't have needed that much strength in the early water days.
So, you know, that's just another theory, but we're a very fragile ape.
If there are monsters in this many lakes, either people make up stories about lakes as a normal course of events worldwide, not just here, or there really are monsters in lakes.
Recently, I have done a number of shows on what appear to be endless holes in the ground.
The northwest is replete with them.
They're all over the place.
I've got a picture of one on my website.
Holes that go so deep that nobody can measure them.
Now, maybe it sounds a little weird, but is it not possible that there would be creatures that would inhabit these holes more or less as a natural habitat that occasionally might come on up?
I've run across reports from Indiana and Kentucky of these deep holes with strange creatures in them, sometimes with claws and different things, almost like lobster-like animals, kind of big ones.
But yeah, some of the people who have done research over in Loch Ness feel that there's an underwater tunnel between Loch Ness and the ocean.
And there's all kinds of possibilities, and sure of those things probably have animals.
Well, we are now discovering that at the very deepest parts of our ocean where there is volcanic venting, there is life, which seems to say that wherever there is an environment, no matter how harsh it may seem to be, somehow there is some kind of life that adapts to it and thrives in it.
There's quite a few stories from the turn of the century about giant skeletons being found in Minnesota, Wisconsin, all the way over to Greenland.
And we're trying to dig up some of these stories because it would be great to backtrack and find some of these bones because they seem to fit right in with the Bigfoot picture.