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Feb. 23, 1998 - Art Bell

02:49:24

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard C. Hoagland - Mars Mission

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	Sunday nights at 9 on AM 1500 KSTV.
	Music playing...
	To talk with our guests in the kingdom of Nye from east of the Rockies, Diocese of New York.
	1-800-825-5033.
	West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-825-5033. West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico.
	1-800-618-8255. 1-800-618-8255. Now again, here's Art Bell.
	Well, good morning, everybody.
	Great to be here.
	Richard Hoagland is coming up.
	It's been a long time since he's been on the program.
	Winner of a Engstrom Science Award.
	Advisor at one time to Walter Cronkite.
	Daddy.
	Advisor to NASA.
	Richard has some of the most shocking news that you've ever heard tonight.
	And I didn't want to... I know what it is, but I didn't want to preempt it.
	This one will get your blood boiling.
	I mean, it'll really get your blood boiling.
	So we're going to get to all of that, and in about an hour, we'll bring on yet another man with Richard who knows something about the Challenger accident.
	Put that in quotes, please, for me.
	So that's what's directly ahead.
	What I'm about to do right now, I do with the utmost hesitation and trepidation.
	As you may or may not know, I have a voice changer.
	For the last two years, people have been begging to know where this voice changer came from,
	how I got it, how much is it, where can I get one, and I have resisted at every
	question, and there have been gazillions of them, simply because I knew that if I were to make the
	voice changer available to all of you, you would hook it up and use it on me.
	So with great trepidation, I do the following.
	You know what a voice changer is?
	Well, let me help you out.
	It allows you to do something like this with your voice.
	That's right.
	You can become evil.
	You can become a person you're not now.
	You can become... You can become... In fact, you can become sub-human.
	Now, there are other possibilities.
	If you're a man and you don't want to sound like a man, you can simply, slowly adjust up your voice changer until you're nearly a woman.
	And now you're barely human.
	Now you're more like an alien!
	So I'm demonstrating to you what can be done with a voice changer right before your very ears.
	Do you like it?
	Well, now I'm going to tell you how to get one.
	Again, I do this with a very serious amount of trepidation.
	There are legitimate uses for a voice changer and none of them include calling up a talk show host.
	Do you understand?
	Having said that, we have the best, of course.
	We found the best, and it's the one like I have.
	Digitally processing your voice so that, if you wish it, even your own mother will not know who you are.
	Now, I overemphasize the changes.
	You can do it, you know, make them much lighter.
	A man can become a woman saying, well, nobody's home, or he's not home.
	Or a woman, even more impressively, can become a man late at night.
	There are many uses for this, many of which I would beg you not to utilize.
	You can call people up and utterly, totally freak them out.
	You don't have to take your phone apart.
	This voice changer goes between the telephone handset and the telephone.
	You know, you just, when it arrives, you just plug it in, boom, it uses It's 16-bit digital technology.
	It's portable.
	It's easy to use.
	And if you call me with it, I'll have you... I'll wring your little neck.
	Do you hear me?
	Having said that, if you want a voice changer, Bob Crane now has them in stock.
	For $69.95.
	I swear, if you people call me up with this, I'll wring your necks.
	So I'm with great trepidation selling these $69.95 and we may not sell that many either so if you want one call Bob Crane in the morning at 730 a.m.
	and finally here it is the voice changer $69.95.
	$69.95. I probably shouldn't be doing this. We encourage you to use it only in a responsible
	We encourage you to use it only in a responsible manner.
	Do you understand?
	The number is 1-800-522-8863.
	That's one.
	Why am I doing this?
	1-800-522-8863.
	This may not last very long, so you better grab them while they're there.
	Nothing to lose but the fat.
	There are clearly unethical uses for a voice changer, and those include husbands calling wives, Those include calling people that you want to get in trouble with the opposite sex.
	There are a lot of very unethical uses of a voice changer.
	So I urge any of you out there who decide to buy one to take an ethical pledge before you take the plunge.
	I don't know whether we ought to be doing this.
	All right, to the Albuquerque, New Mexico area, and a voice you have not heard in quite some time, that of a one-time advisor to NASA, Walter Cronkite, Engstrom Science Award winner Richard C. Hoagland.
	Here he is, Richard.
	Good morning, Art.
	Hi, Richard.
	How are you doing?
	It's a pleasure to be back with you.
	Well, there's a storm headed your way, my friend.
	That's right, you said you're getting cats and hammer handles tonight.
	You got it.
	Boy, it's pouring in.
	As a matter of fact, let me quickly read this.
	At about 10.10 p.m.
	Central San Diego County got hit with what hit you, Art, last night.
	The National Weather Service has issued a flood warning advising people in low-lying areas to seek higher ground at any sign of flooding.
	They're predicting, get this Richard, up to one inch an hour Um, until 3 a.m.
	So, uh, it's very serious.
	The lights are flickering in San Diego.
	Uh, and this is somebody who barely got the fax out, uh, before the power apparently was about to go.
	So, it's a very serious situation here.
	And, um, this El Nino business is probably about three times worse than any of us thought it would be.
	Anyway, welcome to the show, Richard.
	Well, it's nice to be here, and I'm on a 7,000 foot mountain.
	So, I'm not totally concerned.
	Oh, well, maybe not with flooding, but wait till you see the amount of snow you get.
	Ah, but we have wood.
	All right, look, let us not hold the audience in suspense.
	This is very serious news.
	It's about Mars.
	We have a present mission to Mars.
	We have a probe that we have sent there.
	What is the name of that probe?
	Mars Global Surveyor.
	Mars Global Surveyor, huh?
	It was launched, you know, a year ago in December.
	Right.
	And it reached Mars on September 11, 1997, the night that we very specifically held a Yes.
	press conference and conference in Pasadena just down the street from JPL.
	And since September it has been in what's called an aero-breaking orbit, an initial
	highly elliptical orbit, 45 hours in length with a low point about 150 miles above the
	surface of Mars.
	What, Richard, is the mission of the Mars Global Surveyor?
	Basically, global mapping.
	It carries a very sophisticated camera designed by Malin Space Science Systems, headed by Dr. Michael Malin himself, which is a duplicate.
	It's the backup flight hardware from the Missing Mars Observer of a couple, three years ago, back in 93.
	Oh, the one that was lost in space?
	Lost in space, yes, under curious circumstances, to say the least.
	It also carries a number of other instruments, you know, imaging in the infrared, measurements of global magnetic fields, measurements of electrified particles, but primarily we in the Enterprise mission are concerned with the images because those are the Those are the data that can either confirm or deny the hypothesis that on the surface of Mars... Cydonia.
	At Cydonia, and other places, there are potentially artificial structures built by someone, a hypothesis which can be resoundingly confirmed by this mission, and which just before his death, Carl Sagan, no less a personage than, called for the intensive re-image to settle the question once and for all.
	Let's get a sense of how good the Surveyor is.
	The last photographs we took in orbit of Mars were taken how long ago?
	For 20 some years, 1976.
	So it's 22 years.
	1976.
	Now, how does the resolution from the camera on board Mars Global Surveyor compare to the resolution that we got in 1976?
	Because I don't know how high the orbit was then or what kind of camera we had.
	Well, we have much inferior technology.
	We have come light years in microelectronics and CCD imaging and solid-state cameras since the 1970s.
	So how much better?
	Well, with all factors put in, on the order of 40 to 50 times sharper.
	Oh my God, 40 to 50 times sharper?
	40 to 50 times.
	The Viking images were taken with TV cameras, a little tiny Viticon You know vacuum tube TV cameras?
	Sure.
	The cameras, or the camera in various modes.
	Not even as good as today's CCD camcorder?
	Nope, absolutely not.
	Okay.
	The camera on Mars Surveyor is in solid state, no moving parts, no vacuum tubes.
	It is a CCD, it's a very sophisticated CCD.
	And the computer technology and the transmission, you know, from the spacecraft.
	That's a charge-coupled device.
	That's right.
	And it's the same technology that is in your chip camera, in your camcorder.
	Right.
	But it's a military spec or NASA spec as opposed to civilian.
	So it's more resistant to radiation, it's got more latitude, it's got redundant, you know, computer tricks in the software.
	As people who may have been perusing the The NASA website in the last several months since September may have noticed that the pictures, black and white and color, coming from the mission so far have been nothing short of breathtaking and spectacular.
	All right, now let me stop you right there because it was my understanding, Richard, that they had called all of that off and they said the first images from Mars Global Surveyor would not be seen for about A year, and yet we're getting photographs.
	What happened?
	Well, this is part of this confusing, changing signals.
	You know, yes, today you're going to do it, no, tomorrow you're not going to do it, and oh, maybe next week you'll do it again.
	The initial plan was for the spacecraft to be put into this highly elliptical, which is an egg-shaped orbit, and then it would take several months to basically aerobrake itself down to a circular orbit around 300 and some odd miles above the surface.
	Polar orbit meaning it passes over both poles Mars is spinning underneath so on every orbit your camera
	passes take you over a different part of the terrain gotcha and in several
	Weeks I'd say two or three weeks you come back over very close to the original
	Pass very much like Earth orbiting in a land sat let know it knows satellites
	I used to get these yeah weather and the philosophy of surveyor building on the philosophy of Mars orbiter
	Was basically to do that kind of global mapping with multiple spectral
	technology meaning instruments you can see in the visible and in the infrared
	Right.
	And to build a global database, not only of what the stuff looks like down there at extraordinary resolution for selected areas, with lower resolution for the whole planet, but also to get surveys of the mineral composition.
	This is a mission which, in any sense, is going down in the history books if it proceeds, because it'll give us the first global sense of what there is on Mars to work with.
	Sure.
	Previous missions have not had this capability or an extraordinarily crude level.
	Given the state of the art now, we're really at the end of this mission, two years nominally down the road.
	We'll know Mars like no one has ever known it.
	All right.
	The Mars Global Surveyor is part of the Faster, Cheaper, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.
	And for that reason, they're aerobraking.
	Now, all that means is that when they get in the vicinity of Mars, they use the atmosphere of Mars to slow the spacecraft to an orbit that they're satisfied with.
	That's right.
	And apparently, when they first dipped into the Mars atmosphere, There was an anomaly.
	They found that the Mars atmosphere had somehow mystically expanded, and they got more aerobraking than they expected.
	What happened?
	It backs up to the launch.
	In December, right after launch, actually, the launch was in November, and I was at the Cape, and I was actually in the press center.
	And very quickly after launch, we got engineering data that afternoon.
	A bright sunny day at the Cape in November that afternoon.
	We got data that one of the two solar panels, which had to be deployed, unfolded in orbit in space once the spacecraft was headed for Mars, did not deploy exactly as planned.
	There was some kind of gunk or metallic particles or whatever in one of the hinges.
	It's like having something stuck in the screen door hinge.
	I hear you.
	And they couldn't open the door totally, couldn't open the panel totally to where it would click into place and lock.
	Okay.
	Now in zero gravity it doesn't make much, you know, there's really no problem because it was very close to being deployed.
	In fact, we were quoted that the angle from full deployment was, you're not going to like this Art, 19.5 degrees.
	Anyway.
	Yes.
	So then.
	They get to Mars.
	And these panels were to function kind of like wings in the aerobraking mode.
	You've got these two straight rectangular panels sticking out on both sides of the central spacecraft, and they provide the air resistance.
	On each pass through the atmosphere to slow you down a little bit.
	All right, and here you've got one not locked.
	Kind of like an airplane trying to land with one wheel not locked down.
	Well, you remember those old Avengers on the aircraft carriers where the wings fold up?
	Sure.
	Can you imagine if you're in a flight and one of those wings folds up and it's not locked down?
	Well, that would be really catastrophic.
	It would be catastrophic.
	Now, since this is not dependent on wings to stay aloft, that's... Can I ask a dumb question?
	There are no such things.
	All right, good.
	Then why not turn the spacecraft around, begin to aerobrake it, and force the solar panel open?
	If you ever decide to leave radio art, to the heart-wrenching anguish of millions, you can get a job at NASA, because that's exactly what they did.
	You're kidding.
	You're kidding.
	They did try it.
	And what happened is, as they're in orbit and they're doing the aerobraking a few weeks after they started the procedure, you're right, between one pass and the next, 24 hours, remember the full orbit's 45, so half of that's about 24.
	Right.
	The Mars atmosphere at the aerobraking altitude, 150 miles upstairs, doubled in a 24 hour period.
	Now how the hell can that happen?
	Well, the upper atmosphere of any planet is subject to heating due to solar effects.
	Okay.
	And there's not a lot of mass up there so that a little bit of energy goes a long way.
	Makes the atmosphere inflate.
	Okay.
	And it's the inflation that increases the density and increases the air breaking rate and this all happened very suddenly and it had to do with the seasonal cycles on Mars and what the Sun was doing at that time in terms of sunspots and flares and energy streaming across space.
	So the panel apparently bent backward past the lock position.
	I got you.
	And that's when they realized that it wasn't just that it was not locked, it was that it couldn't ever get locked because there was something, some grit in the hinge.
	And they were afraid they would break it, which means they could sever electrical connections.
	And if you lost, let's say, if a crack appeared at the base, you could lose two thirds of the electricity coming from the panel outward of the crack.
	So you could really jeopardize the entire mission, which is very power limited.
	So they quickly backed off from that, they raised the orbit using the thrusters, they waited a few weeks trying to figure out the problem, and then they more gingerly dipped it into the atmosphere at a higher altitude so there's less air density and less aerobraking and less flexure of those panels.
	And then they told us that, well, because this is now going to happen at a much lower rate, gosh guys, instead of being in the right mapping orbit by March of this year, March of 1998, Right.
	They would not be in the proper circular mapping orbit until March of 1999.
	Okay.
	And then they gave us... Now that means 300 miles equally above the surface.
	More or less.
	More or less.
	Yeah, something like 370... I forget the exact number.
	Okay, the orbit now is elliptical and it gets as close as what?
	Wow.
	So, in other words, at 150 miles versus 300... It's actually going to be better for a while than the nominal mapping orbit.
	Gotcha.
	Now, what you need to do is imagine in your mind... Close your eyes, folks.
	You're listening to the radio.
	You don't watch the pictures.
	Imagine Mars as a rusty, reddish ball, and you've got this pencil-thin, brilliant red line, elliptical, arrowing down over the poles, around the equator, under the South Pole, and back into space.
	Much closer on one side of Mars than on the other.
	That's the current orbit.
	Got it.
	The spacecraft moves around that orbit every 19... It's almost 19.5 hours right now.
	Of course it is.
	Of course, yes.
	Aren't these interesting coincidences?
	And it's now that that orbit is about to take it for the first time since they got to Mars up and over Cydonia.
	The latitude of Cydonia at 41 degrees north latitude Again and again and again for a few weeks.
	You mean it's going to continue to pass over Cydonia?
	Well, all right.
	You've got to imagine that ball with the red line representing the orbit.
	And it will have a look angle at Cydonia.
	That's right.
	Which will vary from coming up on it to right over it to then over on the other side of it.
	Is that correct?
	Yeah.
	The problem is that at the lowest point you're doing an error breaking.
	So what Malin has done with a vast number of very dedicated and clever people at NASA
	is got this duty cycle where they basically have the spacecraft oriented for the error-breaking
	phase.
	They then, when they get back up a little bit, like maybe at 200 miles, they switch
	the spacecraft around so the camera's pointing down, and they take over for a few minutes,
	between 25 and maybe 6 minutes, a strip of pictures, put it in the memory, and then when
	the spacecraft climbs back up to the high point, they dump the memory through the radio
	down to the ground station on the Earth several million miles away.
	I'm curious, Richard, whose decision it was to begin doing the imaging when they said, you know, it'll be a year?
	Michael Malin.
	Michael Malin.
	The only one who decided that.
	He's been getting spectacular images caught kind of on the fly in the non-circular orbit, and everything's worked well up until the announcement that Dr. Malin made a few days ago.
	Which is what we will tell everybody about after the bottom of the hour break, which is coming now.
	I'm telling you, I'm telling you folks, this one is absolutely going to cause your blood to boil.
	And remember, Dan Golden told everybody that he would take pictures of Cydonia at every available opportunity.
	Every time he had a chance, he said he would take a picture of Cydonia because that's what the American public wanted.
	This is Coast to Coast AF.
	LEANING COOL IT'S UPDATED
	ARTBELL IS NOW IN THE KINGDOM OF NIGH ON THE WILD CARD LINE!
	That's area code 702-727-1295.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	It is, and I need to make note of this.
	That's area code 702-727-1295.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	It is, and I need to make note of this.
	Art, it's from Carrie in Mesa, Arizona.
	The reason I'm passing is to ask if you have heard anything about a sighting of a large disc or round object
	having been sighted over Phoenix on Saturday at about 525 p.m.
	There was a short note on KFYI's John Dale Show's Saturday afternoon, but nothing since.
	Yes.
	Supposedly, the object was sighted over the area of Buckeye Road and 27th Avenue.
	Four F-16s were also sighted at the same time.
	When the aircraft approached the area of the object, the object was reported to have simply disappeared.
	Yes, I've had at least a dozen reports of a large object sighted over Phoenix.
	But I've waited until now, this makes about the 12th report that I've received, before mentioning anything to all of you.
	But it does look like there have been more sightings over Phoenix and down in Texas as well.
	For whatever that's worth, and you know what I'm thinking about, I'm sure.
	All right, BroZero.
	You want the ignition system Art Bell has on his Hot Rod Metro.
	It's like a heart transplant for your car.
	That's 1-800-627-8800.
	And check out their web page at www.jacobselectronics.com.
	All right, back now to Richard C. Hoagland.
	And Richard, so here we have this surveyor, Mars Global Surveyor, in this elliptical orbit,
	coming very close to Cydonia, in fact about 150 miles above Cydonia, with the grandest
	opportunity to ever image that we will ever get.
	Well, not quite, but you're close.
	Let me try to explain this again so people can visualize.
	Well, if I'm correct, a year from now, or in 99, I think you said, we'll be up at 300 miles.
	We'll be in a circular orbit of 300 miles, so you're not going to pass as close directly over Cydonia.
	Gotcha.
	But there's no guarantee that these opportunities coming up are going to be directly over Cydonia.
	Only the team and NASA and Malin know for sure what the exact geometry is.
	Well, it's going to come close.
	And even if it was a slant range of, let's say, 500 miles to the side, it would be twice as good as we got from Viking, which was over 1,000 miles above Cydonia when it took those famous pictures.
	Yeah, but if we were able to get a 150-mile direct look down at Cydonia, our picture would be fabulous.
	It would be fabulous.
	And see, this is how this geometry works.
	This orbit, of course, is fixed.
	In space, in terms of its orientation, left and right.
	But in terms of the way that ellipse is slowly sliding around Mars in the north-south direction, the low point right in January was in the southern hemisphere.
	At the rate of a few degrees per day, it is walking its way north.
	And it crossed the equator, I guess, sometime, you know, in the last few days.
	Yes.
	And now it's moving to where every time the spacecraft passes over the low point, it's slightly further north.
	That low point is slightly north of where it was on the previous orbit.
	All right, so... And so it's only a matter of time until it's right over... Sedonia.
	Sedonia.
	Now, when will Sedonia be when it's right over?
	Well, no, when will it be right over Sedonia?
	We don't know.
	Malin has not revealed that, and the team has not revealed that.
	In fact, they're being very fuzzy on all the specifics, which of course makes me suspicious.
	Why?
	Well, that's a good question.
	Why?
	Let's go to this meeting that I talked about the last time I was on your show.
	Let's talk about Malin for one second.
	Okay.
	Who is Malin again, please?
	Dr. Michael Malin was the developer of this specific camera.
	He came to NASA At the same time in 1986 that we came to NASA at the University of Colorado at a major conference.
	And next to our poster board session on the artifacts of Cydonia, Dr. Malin had a poster board session basically asking NASA to put his camera on the Mars Observer spacecraft.
	And so they did and Dr. Michael Malin is now the contractor.
	He is a private contractor.
	Who, for some reason, has been voted God when it comes to taking pictures of Mars on this mission.
	All right, now, now, let everybody understand the importance of this.
	These objects at Sidoni, including the face that appears to be... You know, Richard, that's a good question.
	Let me ask you.
	Does that... Is that a... What would you call that?
	A humanoid face?
	Would you call that...
	An alien face?
	I mean, what is it?
	Well, we've always thought it was humanoid.
	Humanoid.
	And we've worked with anthropologists and others who have compared it, you know, photometrically to other humanoid faces in the fossil record, primitive ancestors in the human family.
	Yes.
	You know, the numbers converge that, in fact, it may be our face.
	That's why I keep saying that this is not a trivial problem.
	We're not maybe looking at aliens, we're looking at an extension of human Culture and civilization on a scale that is inconceivable to most mainstream anthropology.
	Put straight out, we might be looking at our own ancient ancestors, right?
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Now, Dr. Van Flanderen, the astronomer?
	Yes.
	Recently said, and I quoted him quite frequently, that society Had better prepare itself, because as far as he was concerned, the odds are far greater, and I forget he even gave the odds, that this object at Cydonia, this face, is real, is not a natural object, and it's going to really destroy a lot of paradigms, and cause much... when they re-image it, there's every possibility it will cause great disruption in society when we realize what we have.
	Is that correct?
	That's basically correct.
	And I talked to Tom last night, and he reaffirms that position.
	By the way, he says hello to everyone from somewhere in Quito, Ecuador, where he is about to step onto a cruise ship and go out and chase the eclipse of the sun that will sweep across the Pacific on Friday.
	Terrible duty, but somebody has to do it, I think.
	Absolutely.
	So, in other words, he reaffirms his position.
	He is convinced What are the odds, Richard?
	Somebody's done some work on the odds that this face is not natural.
	What are the odds?
	Well, remember, our work puts the face in a larger context.
	We have looked at the other structures around this object that has drawn so much attention.
	The pyramids and the other very geometric and highly organized looking things.
	Yes.
	We have drawn a network of geometry.
	We have discovered through Errol Torren's work on our team That it's a specific geometry, it makes predictions.
	In Monuments of Mars, my book, which is now in its fourth printing, I go through the very elaborate calculations of odds that all that geometry and all that precise positioning could be coincidental in one little tiny piece of real estate some 25 miles across, smaller than the Bay Area, up in San Francisco.
	What are the odds?
	There are trillions to one that this could be accidental.
	Trillions to one.
	Now, I'm not the only individual who's done the calculations.
	Dr. Horace Crater, who is with the Space Science Laboratory at the University of Tennessee,
	has done a much more detailed analysis and a much more rigorous analysis
	in incorporating additional structures, additional positioning, additional geometry,
	and the odds, you know, literally go off the page.
	It's like 25 zeros after the one against this being chance.
	Well, in that case, thank God, because the Mars Global Surveyor is about to pass at low altitude over Cydonia,
	and we are going to have sparkling pictures that will settle this forever, right?
	Wrong, pale face!
	Now we get to the meat of it here.
	Dr. Malin, a few days ago on his website, made a rather remarkable announcement, and let me read it to you verbatim.
	Please.
	It is on our website, it is linked through yours, www... Everybody, go to my website, just go down to the Enterprise mission, click on that, and you'll be able to verify what you're about to hear.
	Go ahead, Richard.
	Alright, this is from the Malin Space Science Systems website.
	The title is, Mars Global Surveyor, Mars Orbiter Camera.
	The subtitle is Mars Orbiter Camera MOC High-Resolution Images.
	Paren shown by Vice President Gore on 2298.
	Mission and Camera Update.
	As of January 31, 1998, the Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft has completed 112 orbits of Mars, during which it has reduced its orbital period from 45 to 19 hours.
	The local time at the equator of that orbit has decreased from roughly 6 p.m.
	To about 1230 p.m.
	On February 16th, that was a few days ago, the Sun will be in the orbit plane, that is, local noon.
	Thereafter, the orbits will be in the morning, rather than the afternoon.
	Now let me tell you why that's exciting, because Viking, of course, took its best shots from Cydonia in afternoon light.
	Right.
	If we got really crisp new images from Surveyor in morning light, Then people like Mark Carlato with today's imaging algorithms and computer 3D modeling could put those two sets of data together and give us an astonishing, incredibly rigorous scientific 3D view of the whole landscape, all the geometry, all the structures.
	And compare and test all the things we suspect from the one lighting angle that we got, even though we have two separate pictures at two different angles above the horizon.
	Now bear in mind, everybody, Dan Golden promised that we would image Cydonia at every single opportunity.
	He's playing the politician.
	He's understanding the American people want to know what the hell this is at Cydonia.
	They want to know.
	And he's caved to that degree that he made a promise that we would image at every available opportunity.
	Well, the best opportunity is right in front of us.
	And what's on that website?
	Malin continues.
	The Mars Orbiter Camera has been imaging the planet, each orbit, shortly after passing through the atmosphere, as I described before.
	To image, the spacecraft rotates and sweeps the camera field of view across the planet.
	After using relatively long rollouts, 25 minutes, to acquire pictures of the Southern Hemisphere earlier in January, by month's end the rollouts had been shortened to 6 minutes owing to spacecraft power limitations.
	Only images between 10 degrees north and 7 degrees south can be taken at present.
	Continued power conservation and increasing spacecraft team workload Associated with the shorter orbits may require turning the camera off soon.
	Turning the camera off?
	Yeah, in other words... They're going to get over Cydonia and they're going to turn... He's going to order the camera to be turned off.
	Now, I have run the technical aspects of what I just read past several people, people who know orbits, and I also ran it past Dr. David Webb.
	Who was one of the participants in this key November meeting I discussed at some length on our last show.
	Dr. Webb, who by the way is not in very good health, so, you know, somebody say a prayer for him, please, confirmed that in that meeting they discussed these power limitations, the orbit geometry and all that, and the guys who were in the meeting were assured by the head of Solar System Exploration and his deputy That those constraints would not impact on the acquisition of Cydonia Photography in March.
	And now something has changed.
	And frankly Art, I think we're being had.
	I think we're being screwed.
	I think that NASA is lying like they've been lying for over 20 years.
	Unless the American people get really good and mad, You ain't gonna see any new pictures of Cydonia ever.
	End of discussion.
	End of story.
	End of debate.
	Well, I don't believe in coincidence at this level, Richard.
	Even I don't.
	Even I, when I knew about all this, of course, and I got... The more I thought about it, the more angry I became.
	You know, I understand that the scientists may feel there are more interesting areas of Mars to examine.
	But I don't.
	And a lot of the astronomers don't.
	And sure as hell, the American people don't.
	So, the question is, what can this audience do to apply some pressure at the right points?
	Well, it's very curious you bring that up, because this occasion, this question arose about a year ago, when we were, in essence, kicked off the NASA Yeah.
	Yes, yes, yes, yes.
	Yes.
	I remember.
	Yeah.
	when the spacecraft left. Remember the huge fuss?
	Yes, yes, yes, yes.
	You know, the letters for putting up a poster of Sedonia, the stand-up backdrop and all the lies around that?
	Yeah, we acted, I know.
	At that time, you and I called for concerned Americans who gave a damn about this to send faxes to Dan Golden.
	And we had it on excellent authority, basically because John Holliman also was received many of
	these, that tens of thousands of Americans
	literally inundated NASA headquarters, Golden's office fax line,
	which we're paying for, of course, so it's not his private home fax line,
	this is his public office fax number.
	Paid for by the taxpayers.
	That's right.
	And NASA got the word.
	Now, what we have subsequently learned is that there was a very sophisticated, high-level targeting of the Enterprise mission, and that targeting continues as of tonight.
	I have received my first death threat, alright?
	What?
	I received a death threat in a very interesting and curious way.
	At the same time, there is a very despicable effort to take away the Enterprise mission headquarters north of Albuquerque as we speak tonight.
	This is a broad front attack on an effort to simply get this agency to live up to its commitments to the American people All right, I'm going to ask again.
	Who do we fax?
	that we would get to see pictures of Cydonia on this mission
	and instead they are now turning off the camera just before the geometry is appropriate.
	Alright, I'm going to ask again. Who do we fax? What do we say? How do we turn this off?
	Well, we obviously have to let Dan Golden, who's the head of NASA, serving at the pleasure of the President and the American people, know... Can he order Dr. Malin to image Cydonia?
	According to Dr. Webb, who is in the meeting, who I talked to last night, and who would be on the show with me tonight if it weren't for grave health conditions... Yes, sir?
	He has had a stroke, all right?
	He is coherent, he is not in paralysis, but he is in an extraordinary fragile condition.
	And I could not prevail upon him to do even a few minutes to confirm.
	No, I understand.
	As a matter of fact, if anybody wants to confirm what we have said before they write an angry letter, and hopefully these letters will be not angry, even if you're very angry.
	And when I heard about all this, I was damn angry.
	Write a logical And we're going to give you Dan Golden's fax number, aren't we?
	Yes, we are.
	All right.
	What is it, Richard, please?
	Okay, we're also going to give you Ted Koppel's fax number at the ABC office in Washington and John Holliman's fax number in Atlanta.
	Okay, I don't want to do too much.
	Let me tell you why it's important we give these to others.
	If you send faxes to Dan Golden, you simply put them in the wastebasket.
	If you send a copy of your fax to the media, to the people that I know are honest, Koppel and Holliman, Okay.
	Golden will have to answer the faxes you send to NASA Headquarters.
	All right, so in other words, people should send the fax originally to Dan Golden and CC, in other words, a carbon copy, Ted Koppel and Holloman at CNN, right?
	Precisely.
	All right.
	Everybody's got their paper by now.
	Dan Golden's fax number, please.
	Washington area code 202.
	Right.
	358.
	Right.
	2810.
	All right.
	Right. 2810. All right, Ted Koppels, please.
	Terry Code 202 in Washington.
	It's not only something they can, it's something they should.
	okay i'm all about it on a moment at cnn atlanta area code four zero four
	x eight one three five
	this is something that everybody can do uh... it's not only something they can do something they
	should should i agree with you and i have done hundreds of hours
	there's a lot of critics a lot of attacks that claim that i'm not being
	scientific that we're making stuff up The idea that you have the pivotal opportunity of once in a lifetime to test a theory that goes to the heart of the reason for the existence of NASA itself, to search for life anywhere out there, and you turn the camera off because you cannot look, to me is unconscionable.
	It is.
	It is unconscionable.
	It's based on almost a religious psychosis of not wanting to know.
	I agree, Richard.
	Hold on, we're at the top of the hour.
	Alright, listen, I'm going to give this information again for those of you who may have just run to get a paper and a pencil.
	Please, folks, send these faxes.
	And simply make a good, fair, intellectual argument that Dan Golden keep his promise.
	And if need be, order Dr. Michael Malin to keep the camera on just a little bit longer so we can finally settle this very important argument.
	If the odds say this face and those artifacts are not natural, it is one of the most important stories that mankind has ever had the opportunity to investigate and finally settle.
	Dan Golden's fax number That number is area code 202.
	Please help out here.
	202-358-2810.
	Again, 202-358-2810.
	Now, you want to be sure and copy, Richard is correct about this, two of the people that we consider to be very fair.
	One is Ted Koppel at ABC and that number is area code 202.
	222-7976. And then John Holliman at CNN, copy him as well at area code 404-681-3578.
	And I'll be repeating those numbers as we come out of this next hour.
	And we're going to have more for you. My guest is Richard C.
	Hoagland.
	And never have I thought we had a more worthy opportunity To do something very important for all of mankind.
	Tonight, we have that opportunity.
	So, if you don't have the numbers yet, get a paper and a pencil, and I'll repeat them for you.
	I'm Art Bell from the high, wet desert.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	See ya.
	For everything to the gallery, it takes a long way to talk.
	It takes a long way to talk.
	It takes a long way to talk.
	When you're up on the stage, it's unbelievable.
	Unbelievable.
	Unbelievable.
	Then you watch him, you think, you know it's a fantasy.
	Oh, it's a fantasy.
	If you have a fax for Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nine, send it to him at area code 702-727-8499.
	702-727-8499.
	Please limit your faxes to one or two pages.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Now, here again is Art.
	Once again, here I am.
	This is a night that you can actually make a difference.
	So please, if you have access, To a fax machine.
	If you can go to Kinko's, if you can get a fax machine, however, you've got one on your computer, I don't care.
	Please, go get a pencil and a paper, and I will quickly recap what we've done in this last hour.
	My guest is Richard C. Hoagland, and we have what I would call a crisis situation in space.
	I'll explain it in a moment.
	800-562-6438.
	Briefly recapping, inadequately recapping what has occurred in the last hour.
	It's a real shocker.
	Now, I want you to know you can verify what I am about to tell you by going to my website right now, simply scrolling down to the Enterprise Mission link, or for all I know, they may have a link with Richard Hoagland's name that'll take you directly to the Enterprise Mission.
	And reading the sorry details.
	Dr. Michael Malin is in charge of the camera operation on the Mars Global Surveyor.
	The Mars Global Surveyor is in March, the month of, coming up, about to pass 150 miles above, directly above the Cydonia region.
	Dr. Michael Malin has ordered the camera shut off at a moment when we could get the highest resolution photographs of the Mars Cydonia region with a face and with all the artifacts and once and for all settle this question about whether or not these artifacts are Man-made, alien-made, whatever.
	And you've got to remember, Tom Van Flanderen has been saying, you better get ready for a shock, because these objects are not natural.
	He's been saying that.
	He's absolutely right.
	Except that at the very moment when we're going to get photographs that would settle all of this, from this spacecraft with this incredible camera on it, Dr. Michael Malin, ...is about to order the camera be turned off.
	We are enlisting your help, your assistance, right now to get this turned around.
	The way we would like you to assist is as follows.
	Please fax the head of NASA, Dan Golden, at his office fax number, so it is a taxpayer fax machine, Do not write an outrageously angry letter.
	Please write a logical, proper, insistent letter that Dan Golden order this camera remain on until we get the photographs of Cydonia.
	Remembering that Dan Golden promised the American people he would image Cydonia at every opportunity.
	Well, the golden opportunity is about to occur and they're going to turn the damn camera So fax Dan Golden, please, and copy Ted Koppel and John Holliman.
	And I'm going to tell you now how to do that.
	You can fax Dan Golden at area code 202-358-2810.
	Area code 202-358-2810.
	to That's Ted Koppel at ABC at area code 202-222-7976.
	7976 that's Ted Koppel at ABC at area code 202 222 79
	76 also copy John Holliman at CNN at area code
	404 six eight one three five seven eight
	That's area code 404 six eight one three five seven eight Continue trying over the next couple of days until you manage to get through.
	I very rarely request the assistance of my audience directly in this sort of thing.
	But I think that unless we turn this around and turn it around now, it will quickly be too late.
	The opportunity will be lost and there is every possibility We will get no more pictures of the Cydonia region from Mars Global Surveyor.
	Back now to Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard?
	Yeah, I want to add a couple points, because this, you know, as Alice would say in Alice in Wonderland, which this is more and more resembling as opposed to the science we used to expect out of NASA, it's just getting curiouser and curiouser.
	Last November, there was a copyrighted article in the Philadelphia Inquirer by a writer named Fay Flam.
	Uh, FLAM.
	And the headline read, Mars probe to check out that, submit your face.
	Dateline Philadelphia.
	With the Mars Global Surveyor in orbit around the red planet, NASA plans to try to update its fuzzy photos of the so-called face on Mars, an image made famous by supermarket tabloids.
	Well, it's also been in the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post and a few places like that.
	Um, at the bottom of the article, There's an extraordinary statement quoted to or attributed to Malin himself.
	Malin said the new photos, meaning the ones from his camera?
	Yes.
	No matter how good, still might not settle the issue.
	The hill might still look like A face.
	Now, let me repeat that, all right?
	You did not mishear me, Art.
	Listen to this.
	Malin said the new photos, no matter how good, still might not settle the issue.
	The hill might still look like a face.
	Now, Dr. Stanislawski... Now, wait a minute.
	Everybody's got to bear in mind that NASA said for years and years and years, this is not a face.
	It's all a trick of light and shadow and angle.
	Am I correct?
	That's correct.
	What we have here is an extraordinary religious bias.
	Now let me quote to you another authority who is perhaps a little more tempered on this tonight than I might be.
	This is from Dr. Stan McDaniel, dated November 30th, 1997, in response to the Philadelphia Inquirer quotation.
	He says here, we are especially disturbed By the comments quoted from Dr. Michael Malin, who is not a NASA spokesperson, but a private contractor.
	Dr. Malin has regularly shown that he has a mistaken understanding of Dr. Mark Colorado's procedures.
	That's the imaging expert that was on our Enterprise Mission Team some years ago.
	His statement, Malin's statement, that if the face on Mars turns out in higher resolution images to still look like a face, this would prove nothing, Is particularly reprehensible, said McDaniel.
	I would agree.
	It would appear that the actual believers are not those in the opposite camp who will not accept the new data unless it suits their preconceived ideas of reality.
	In other words, the reason, I mean, ask yourself this, why do we have a camera on this spacecraft?
	To take photographs of Mars.
	Alright, now when we get the photographs, what do we do with the photographs?
	What does NASA do?
	What does Malin do?
	Well, Malin, it is my understanding, has a proprietary period when only he sees them as a contractor and then releases them to the public and or he releases them right away.
	I don't know.
	Well, that's a separate question.
	Let me tell you what I'm getting at.
	The reason we have this camera on there is to take extraordinarily good, state-of-the-art images to feed back to a team of scientists, primarily geologists at NASA under contract, We'll then look at those images to decide what Mars is like.
	It's called remote sensing.
	We're not on Mars.
	The camera's above Mars.
	We remotely send the data back.
	And as Ron Nix has said eloquently on your show several times, who is one of our geologists on Enterprise's team, there are no Martian geologists.
	There are earthly geologists looking at Martian images of Martian geology and interpreting them through the lenses of earthly experience With terrestrial geology, which means, Dr. Malin, that every analysis of every image and every pixel and every feature is based on experience garnered here on planet Earth.
	Okay.
	Richard, here's where I, even though I am a truth seeker, Richard, and I am 100% behind this effort to see to it that these photographs are taken.
	I've got to stop and argue with you a little bit.
	Okay.
	I'm a believer in the Brookings Report.
	And it is my opinion that if we image Cydonia and we come back with unambiguous evidence that these are not natural objects and were put there by either aliens or us many, many, many, many centuries, eons ago, That it will so disturb the fabric of society and science, that it will be a long time before we recover from it, and religion, and I could go on and on and on.
	It will disturb most basic paradigms that we base our belief systems on, Richard.
	This is not a trivial or minor thing, and I know that you disagree with me.
	I am prepared to plunge ahead anyway, because I'm a believer in truth, no matter what the result.
	That gets to my question.
	I'm simply saying I think we're in for trouble.
	I have a question for you then.
	Yeah, sure.
	Why do you do this show every night?
	I told you that in the first sentence, Richard, because whether or not it would disrupt things, I'm a believer in a search for truth.
	Then we're on the same side.
	We're on the same side, but only marginally.
	We disagree on the effect that it's going to have on society, and that is something that I weigh in my own mind.
	Well, I do too, and I have for 15 years.
	Not too much, you don't.
	I consider this every single day.
	The trend curve I see, is of ordinary Americans, the folks that we're talking to tonight, who have the guts and the stamina and the stick-to-itiveness to be Americans, to be pioneers, to carve out new terrain and go where no one's gone before, are at the mercy of a handful of, frankly, mad magicians, elitists, who, out of the one side of their mouth, keep mouthing, giving lip service to the search for truth, for science, for integrity,
	And on the other side of their mouth, they are double-dealing, they are lying, they are deceiving, and they're hypocrites to the core of their being.
	But Richard, when you're talking to my audience and saying those things, you are preaching to the choir.
	If anything, I certainly have an audience that would be capable of assimilating this with, I think, the least amount of disruption in their personal paradigms.
	They would learn to accept it because they're broad thinkers.
	But Mr. Arthur Bell, Why do you think your audience is growing by the hour?
	I know all that, but Richard... Because that curve, that middle of the curve as I keep talking about, who want to know the truth, who are prepared, as Jack Nicholson said, To handle the truth, not to handle it.
	It's getting bigger.
	But Richard, how do you think Rush Limbaugh's audience, generally conservative, religious, born-agains, that kind of group, how would they accept it?
	Not so well, I... Well, I have done Christian radio, alright?
	Just before Pasadena, before we showed some astonishing Pathfinder images of the surface at the Pathfinder site, I was invited to do a very right-wing, fundamentalist, Christian broadcast.
	And frankly, I would put the intelligence and perspicacity and inquisitiveness of that audience up against yours any night now, because I got as good a set of questions and perspectives if not better.
	Oh yes.
	And that certainly is true.
	And the reason are, the reason are, is those people have a moral sense.
	And a moral sense says, look, you can't claim you want to have truth, seek truth, know truth, believe in truth, take money from the American people in the pursuit of truth.
	And then lie to them over and over and over again.
	If Dan go over to stand up and say, look guys, you can't handle the truth, we're not going to take the damn pictures, go away.
	Richard.
	That would be one thing.
	Richard.
	But to continually hold out the bait, you know, it's like jam yesterday, jam tomorrow, but never jam today.
	Right.
	It's got to stop.
	Richard.
	Yes?
	There is a very, very popular TV evangelist.
	Who, not many years ago, suggested publicly on television that believers in UFOs should be stoned to death.
	I was on his show.
	They came down to the farm when I was in Wytheville, when I was between coasts, and I worked for 24 hours with his producer.
	And the producer had come in with a very pre-set, rather narrow perspective on what we were doing.
	By the end of the 24 hours, which by the way, while they were there, I got my first NASA invitation to go and address this question at NASA Goddard.
	The phone call literally came in while that producer from CBC Christian Broadcasting, or is it CBN?
	CBN is what it is.
	CBN, yeah, was there.
	That call was very important because it told this producer that this was serious.
	That even NASA wanted itself to know at the grassroots level, and the invitation to go to New York, I'm sorry, Washington, and present later that fall, came in while they were there.
	When that show appeared on the air, and he asked me the question, why should Christians care?
	See if there's something, that was exactly the question.
	Is that really the way it was asked?
	That was exactly the way, and I answered it as follows, and I am proud of my answer, because I believe in the concept of truth and integrity and I looked in the camera and I said Christians should care because for the last several thousand years we have lived in the Judeo-Christian tradition under the precept that the search for truth is impelled by a higher power.
	By the Supreme Creator, that that is the moral lesson we are supposed to be using every day in our everyday lives as a guidance, as a guidance system, as a star ahead of us, as a beacon to set a pattern for our lives.
	That's a good answer.
	And it went over with everybody except the founder of CBN.
	That producer lost his job over that segment that aired on CBN.
	I'm not surprised.
	I'm not surprised.
	He was going to come up to Goddard and sit in the audience at NASA and see our first NASA presentation, our first official invitation, and he couldn't because he didn't have a job.
	The fact that one religious fanatic believes something doesn't mean that Christians and religious people believe that.
	No, but Richard, stop and listen to me for a second.
	You know the kind of show I do.
	You listen nearly every night.
	You know the topics I cover?
	I would say, I'm going to be conservative Richard, I'm going to say that 20% of the mail that I get regards me as the Antichrist.
	regards me as somebody who is giving service to the devil because UFOs and or objects in our sky that can't be accounted for or creatures that might abduct human beings or you know whatever angle of this you want to talk about are not what I say they are or imagine they might be but rather representatives of The devil.
	Now, that's about 20% of my mail, Richard.
	20% of my mail.
	So that means... Now, the American Revolution... 80% want to know our... Oh, I'm with you, Richard.
	Listen, I'm with you.
	I'm just telling you that I'm very aware of what would occur socially and scientifically and religiously
	if we get the images back and they're unambiguous and they're they're they're absolutely
	Not natural objects Richard I know what's going to happen and it ain't going to be pretty well we have from that
	Cornerstone of the American electorate from that perspective
	We have a lot of discussion about values family values society values getting back to basics moral integrity
	To me, there is something so radically wrong with dangling the truth while basically, you know, fortressing the lie.
	And it's the hypocrisy which will do in not only any rational belief in government, but also belief in society as a structure of common purpose as a whole.
	You cannot have a lie festering at the center.
	You cannot have, as John Dean said twenty-some years ago, a cancer on the presidency, a cancer on the Constitution.
	Within NASA, where we pretend we want to know, but in truth, we don't, and we're not going to level, and we'll do everything, including lie about power consumption and manpower problems, so we don't have to take the pictures.
	I agree.
	There's something wrong with this picture, Art, and you and I are on the side of the angels on this one, because ultimately, the American Constitution, which was based on a belief in a Supreme Being, basically said that when it came to the big questions, If we don't level with people and treat them as adults, nothing else means anything.
	I agree with you, Richard.
	Hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	And having said all I said, you're damn right I want the truth.
	And the way I see that we can get it is to have you participate with us.
	Write to Dan Golden.
	Tell him you want these photographs taken.
	You don't want the camera turned off.
	Dan Golden's fax number is area code 202-358-2810.
	Area code 202-358-2810.
	Please copy Ted Koppel at ABC News at area code 202-222-7976.
	So please copy Ted Koppel at ABC News at area code 202-222-7976.
	Please also copy John Holliman at CNN at area code 404-681-3578.
	Please also copy John Holliman at CNN at area code 404-681-3578.
	Even knowing what I believe I know about what will occur, if it turns out the way I think it's going to, I want the truth.
	How about you?
	I'm Art Bell.
	Richard Hoagland is my guest, and he'll be right back.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of the Coast to Coast AM.
	you To talk with Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from east of the Rockies, dial 1-800-825-5033.
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	1-800-825-5033. West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico.
	1-800-618-8255. 1-800-618-8255. Now again, here's Art Bell.
	Good morning.
	Richard will be right back.
	We're discussing the photographs that probably are not going to get taken.
	If you doubt what we say, go to my website, scroll down to the Enterprise mission, go over there.
	You can actually read directly from Michael Malin's website the fact that he intends to, in all probability, turn the cameras off Prior to these Cydonia photographs.
	If that bothers you, keep listening.
	When you think about the future, do you see our economy getting better or worse?
	Well, day-to-day in the market, it's really hard to tell, isn't it?
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	In other words, you begin, you learn, you learn, you learn, you trade on paper, not using real money.
	Only when you're absolutely certain that you know what you're doing, do you begin using real money.
	And all I can tell you personally is I have had faxes, email, letters from people who have done very well.
	They have become rich.
	This is not a get-rich-quick scheme, though, you know, you might get rich.
	You also might break out of your 9-to-5 job.
	Call now 1-800-GOLD-KRC.
	There is no obligation.
	The material you get is free.
	Read it.
	Listen to it, because you get a tape, and decide for yourself.
	Once again, 1-800-G-O-L-D-K-R-C, or, you want the numbers, and I prefer the numbers, 1-800-4-6-5-3-5-7-2.
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	One issue that I wish to address with Richard prior to bringing on yet another guest is
	It will also be a NASA topic, but very different.
	Richard, I want to read you a fax, and this is right down your alley, and I can't resist, and you can react to it, and we'll move on.
	Okay.
	It says, Uh-huh, great show.
	Why do you and Richard believe the camera over Mars will be turned off during the Cydonia region?
	I believe the photos underlined will be taken and then hidden from the public.
	What do you think of this theory?
	Take care, Art.
	Ray in New York.
	Oh, I think he's absolutely right.
	I mean, you know, we had another couple of hours.
	Look, this is a pattern of deception.
	The investigation that I've been leading, which now has brought in political people, former NSA intelligence people, archive researchers.
	I mean, we have got a broad-front analysis of what NASA's been up to, stirred in my mind and my heart 15 years ago when I saw these pictures from DiPietro Molinar, actually even before, when I saw them at NASA, at JPL itself.
	And where this will end up, I do not know.
	I only know that tonight we're being lied to once again, I think the factor is 100% correct that this is a smokescreen.
	This is a plausible, deniability, Washington double-speak reason to ostensibly get the press to accept the logic of turning off the camera when, in fact, the factor is extraordinarily perspicacious.
	He's right on.
	They're going to take the pictures and look.
	And then maybe, maybe, given factors we cannot imagine at the moment, They may at some point decide that we, the Great Unwashed, deserve to see what we're paying for.
	But don't hold your breath.
	For the purpose of our drive, faxing Dan Golden, Ted Koppel, John Holliman, to see to it that the camera stays on, serves a purpose.
	Whether they planned to really turn it off, or whether they planned to keep it on, take photos, and keep them to themselves.
	Either way, Absolutely, because we're still doing the right thing.
	If they can make people believe they turned the camera off, then there's no possibility of pictures.
	I've got you.
	If the camera is kept on, they can't deny they've got pictures and then somebody has to say, well, produce them.
	Yeah, that's exactly right.
	All right, Richard, hold on for a moment.
	And one last time, folks, please help us with this.
	And the way you can do it is to fax Dan Golden, who heads NASA, and indeed can insist to Dr. Malin that this camera remain on and settle this question once and for all.
	Dan Golden's fax number is area code 202-358-2810.
	202-358-2810. That's 202-358-2810. Please carbon copy both Ted Koppel and John Holliman.
	Ted Koppel of ABC News.
	His fax number is area code 202.
	2-2-2-7-9-7-6.
	That's 2-0-2-2-2-2-2-7-9-7-6.
	Please keep trying until you get through.
	Also copy John Holliman of CNN News at area code 4-0-4-6-8-1-3-5-7-8.
	4-0-4-6-8-1-3-5-7-8.
	7-6 please keep trying till you get through also copy John Holliman of CNN news at area code
	404 6 8 1 3 5 7 8 4 0 4 6 8 1 3 5 7 8 now I
	Am going to receive. I'm going to read to you now a fax
	Actually email that I received from Ted tweet Meyer earlier today, prior to this program.
	And I'm just going to read it.
	Arch, I know you get loads of emails, so I'll be very specific.
	I am aware that because of current DOD contracts, I now know I am being watched.
	When you live in a rural area and someone parks out on the highway reading a newspaper 200 feet down the street from your home, it gets pretty obvious.
	But if they want to waste their money on that, so what?
	Let me tell you about my background.
	I've been working on DoD contracts since the late 70s.
	My expertise is in the area of electrical engineering, specifically electronic switching systems.
	These systems switch every conceivable kind of signal except... Telephony.
	Telegraphy.
	I'm gonna get that wrong.
	Anyway, telephones.
	Alright?
	They are at the heart of ground stations and launch telemetry systems.
	These handle serial and other launch telemetry systems.
	Through another digital data, analog instrumentation and much more.
	When the shuttle Challenger made its last launch, I had already been to Complex 39 only two months before the Challenger disaster to Pad B, an identical switching system, is inside the blockhouse at Pad A. As head of the engineering department of the company I worked for, I assisted NASA engineers in software and hardware integration with their computers and systems.
	I now own my own switching company which I started in 1993 with an Army SBIR Phase 1 contract and used it to update development on an optical backplane of which I hold a U.S.
	patent.
	My company now has ongoing contracts with NASA and the Navy.
	I fear that my bringing out this information is going to make my life difficult and perhaps my wife's as well.
	This email will give you a quick outline of what I factually know.
	I do not participate in speculation and look at things very scientifically and as accurately as possible.
	I have noticed that you do too.
	Note that the switching system has fully redundant power supplies, CPUs, and redundant signal paths.
	All are automatic in the event of a fault.
	Signal paths are magnetically latched and will stay in place indefinitely without any power.
	The switching system was part of the pad measurement system, which is used to track temperatures and stresses on the launch pad.
	The day of the Challenger disaster.
	And then in parenthesis, oh accident.
	One.
	I came home for lunch and turned on the NASA contract channel.
	SpaceNet 2, then, to watch the Challenger launch.
	I watched the disaster unfold, and immediately saw the flames coming out of the solid booster lower seal joint.
	I went back to the Op 2.
	I went back to the office and finished the day.
	The next day, I received a phone call from the prime contractor to whom the Switch was sold under.
	They stated that, quote, Now listen, they lost all the data through the switch from the pad measurement sensors.
	End quote.
	I was shocked to say the least.
	He noted they would look into it and find out why.
	Three.
	A week later, I got a phone call from him.
	He stated that they discovered the reason.
	It was directly related to a prime contractor employee that entered the blockhouse just before launch.
	And just before the external bolting slash securing of the blockhouse blast doors by security and evacuating everyone within a four mile radius.
	They knew exactly who this person was and what company he worked for and they told me what actually happened.
	The prime contractor who bought the switching system also noted that no malfunction could be found when it was tested.
	And that the internal 100% self-diagnostics were run.
	This was only part of an extensive internal NASA investigation, the results of which are still not fully public today.
	I really don't want to say any more here about this, but if you will contact me, I'll be happy to tell you the incredible ending to this story and the twist it took.
	I learned exactly why all the data was lost during the doomed flight.
	Repeating, all the data was lost during the doomed flight.
	By the way, remind me to tell you about the design review and a local remote control feature that I objected to implementing, but they insisted on.
	This had a big impact on why the data was lost.
	At any rate, he goes on, but you now have the meat of it, and though you might not be fully clear on everything I just said you're about to be, because here is Ted Treatmeyer.
	Ted, welcome to the program.
	Wait a minute.
	There, now.
	Now you'll be there.
	Ted, are you there?
	Yes, I'm here.
	Thank you.
	Welcome to the program.
	Thank you.
	Richard Hoagland is on with us as well, I believe.
	Richard?
	Good morning, Ted.
	All right.
	You two, I know, talked for at least an hour earlier today.
	At least.
	And I guess I'm still a little bit foggy on this.
	I understand that you installed the switching system.
	I was in the Air Force, and you said earlier today to me, Ted, you know those switches that you don't want to throw by mistake, and they put a little cover over them?
	And I said, yes, I know them.
	I have just about everybody I think has seen them in movies on aircraft for arming systems and that sort of thing.
	So that kind of switch was at the pad in this complex.
	And you are suggesting that somebody went in, flipped it up, turned the switch off so that all sensing from the Challenger could no longer be read.
	Any and all data would then be lost because the remote control would in effect be turned off.
	And you're saying the switch was manually thrown.
	Yes, that is correct.
	An engineer for a prime contractor, a company whose responsibility is for facilities and launch support.
	One of their engineers entered the facility.
	Now, I'd like to first point out a couple things about this.
	One is when you go to the Cape, you receive a badge just to get onto the grounds, which stretch over, of course, many miles.
	When you go to one of the pad facilities, you get another badge.
	So not just any person can actually go into the structure.
	It's a very carefully controlled structure.
	The pad is surrounded by concertina wire.
	And there's a fair amount of security involved, for good reason.
	To elaborate a little bit, the blockhouse is not quite the way one would envision it.
	It's a structure built in solid concrete, which is a part of its underground.
	The access to it is around the backside of the flame pit, which is an angle you don't see when the show launches.
	Inside is equivalent to a two-story building.
	And the halls are, I would estimate, approximately 200 feet long.
	And there are rooms off each side.
	The blockhouse is one way in and one way out.
	The same set of very heavy steel doors.
	The blockhouse and everything within four miles is evacuated just before launch.
	And so those astronauts are sitting there on the pad completely by themselves.
	Check.
	Okay.
	Now, to touch base with, to answer your question, the local remote switch that I've mentioned refers to a computer command channel, if you will, to the switching system, which instructs it what connections to make for the measurements that they want to do.
	There's something in the order of 60 sensors and pickups coming into the switch Okay.
	which are routed to upwards of 40 different pieces of equipment.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	The switch is commanded from a launch command complex four miles away by underground cables
	and the local remote refers to either control on the front panel of the piece of equipment.
	For somebody who's physically right there.
	That's correct.
	Or, thrown in the other position, it sends the data remotely to the people that record it normally.
	Yeah, and it also allows that host computer at their launch command complex to also control it.
	So it's one or the other.
	Now, we talked about lifting the cover.
	Which, of course, was put there intentionally so somebody could not bump it.
	You advised, actually, against the installation of this switch, period, right?
	Yes, I did.
	When they explained to me in the initial design review, which was about one year earlier before the switch was actually designed and built, they explained to me how they're going to use it.
	I seriously questioned the wisdom of putting in something that could disable it.
	Right.
	And they said, no, no, no, we want that.
	Okay, here's a customer.
	Get what you want, but I just want you to know I don't think it's a terribly good idea.
	Okay.
	So it was... So you went ahead and put it in?
	Yeah, it was designed into the system.
	Gentlemen, let me interrupt here, okay?
	Yes.
	I think there's a tad of confusion about the kind of data we're talking about.
	All right, what data is it, Richard?
	Okay, this is data that comes from the pad, from the gantry, from the launch complex.
	Yes.
	It is sensing of strains, of temperatures, of pressures, of twisting, of bending, of flexure, of loads, the mass of the shuttle.
	When the clamps fly back, all that kind of data.
	Okay, now let me go back, Richard, and recall that during that launch, there were many questions.
	There were icicles hanging off the vehicle.
	I mean, it was cold as hell.
	It was below 32.
	It was below 32.
	Tremendous number of icicles, huge things hanging all over everything.
	There was a pad ice team that went out and used infrared imaging and sensors to Look at certain delicate parts of the shuttle and try to make a determination as to whether the ice was too bad to launch.
	They had never ever tried to launch under these conditions.
	It was completely out of spec in terms of normal launches for the shuttle.
	So in other words, this data would have been critical with regard to decision making for go or no go.
	Is that correct?
	Well, yes and no.
	In other words, it was obvious what the problem was.
	It was too cold.
	And you didn't need a temperature sensor to tell you it was below freezing because there you had ice.
	No, but you would have had specific information regarding the strains.
	The strains, but we're talking not the strains on the pad now that were the challenger problem, but the strains on the solid rocket boosters that are not part of this system, alright?
	Right, I understand.
	The spacecraft, the boosters, the liquid fuel tank, the orbiter itself, Are a separate telemetry system that comes by radio down to the ground after launch.
	Gotcha.
	The system that Ted is talking about and help instrument only applies to conditions on and around the pad itself.
	But that was part of the environment just prior to launch, right?
	That's right.
	Now Richard, why would they send somebody into that control room and throw a switch that would disable any remote reading of this data?
	Okay, Ted?
	You want me to discuss our speculation?
	Okay.
	Alright, do you want to do it or do you want me to do it?
	Well, I think it's... Let me touch base on an item or two.
	Why would they do this?
	Yes, sir.
	What I was told, the day it happened, or correction, the day after it happened, I was called by the customer who is a prime contractor to NASA at the time.
	One of the big aerospace companies.
	Yep.
	Well, no, no, no.
	This is a heavy telemetry company.
	Okay.
	Yeah, this is different than the aerospace company that oversees a facility.
	And you must have asked him that question.
	Why did they do that?
	Well, no, no.
	First of all, they had no idea why they lost the telemetry.
	I said to him, I said, he called to tell me this.
	This is from the pad now, not from the spacecraft.
	Right, I understand.
	But from the past.
	Yes.
	And it was from before launch, right, Ted?
	Yeah, this was telemetry that's received before and during launch.
	Now, the individual that went into the facility, well, sorry, let me correct myself and start over.
	The way it worked is he said to me when he called me, the engineer called me, he said, we don't know what happened.
	We are looking into it.
	All right, Chad, listen, we're at the top of the hour and we've got a break here for a moment.
	I just want to ask you very quickly, why have you decided to come forward with all of this now?
	Is it something that has been weighing on you personally?
	Yes, it's something I've carried around and in view of some of the recent events, in view Have you carried guilt about this?
	in view of the, which Richard knows well about.
	Have you carried guilt about this?
	Well, I don't know if it's so much guilt, I guess maybe...
	Knowledge that you can't talk about, that you are involved in, produces guilt.
	Let me just say, there's the real space program, and then there's NASA.
	All right.
	Hold it right there.
	We'll come back and try and clear all this up for you folks in a moment.
	this is Coast to Coast AM.
	From the Kingdom of Nye, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	First-time callers may reach Art at area code 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again is Art.
	727-1222. 702-727-1222. Now, here again is art.
	Tomorrow night, Dr. Professor Meiji Okaku is going to be my guest.
	And he is actually, in my opinion, stepping into the very large shoes of the late Dr. Sagan.
	In terms of, um, one who can explain to the public in language it can fully understand the wonders of our universe.
	Tomorrow night, Professor Michio Kaku.
	Or, go get your snappy today at computer stores everywhere.
	I want to, um, urge those of you in Southern California, in the affected areas, From San Diego at the border, up through Malibu and north, to be very, very careful.
	You're probably getting in the order of about an inch of rain an hour now.
	The weather channel is showing hillsides sliding onto highways.
	We'll probably see houses come off of hillsides.
	If you're in a dangerous area, get to high ground.
	Please.
	We are also experiencing continuing relentless rain in the high desert, where we really can't take it.
	Florida is also experiencing, once again, the terror of possible tornadoes and violent weather as El Nino continues to rage.
	We're talking with Ted Tweetmeyer and Richard C. Hoagland.
	Ted, I want to ask you a question and that question is, why do you fear the possibility
	of repercussions for telling the story you're telling now?
	Well, both Richard and I realize that some people don't, and Richard you can correct
	me if you like, there are certain people that really don't want certain things to come out.
	And this would be one of those?
	This could very well be one of those.
	Alright, let me inquire now, again, you received a call, and we're getting up to why this man Uh, whoever he was, went in and turned off that switch.
	I want to understand why.
	And, of course, you asked, so what was the answer you got?
	Okay, well, when I was told that they would look into it to determine what, why the data was lost, and I mean all of the data was lost.
	I hear you.
	Uh, I said, you know, please let me know.
	I would very much like to know.
	He said, I will look into it.
	It took him about a week to get back to me.
	I received a phone call, and I said, what happened?
	His response was, an engineer from, again, a certain aerospace company, went into the room where the system was located and began pushing buttons.
	Direct quotation from him.
	Began just pushing buttons?
	Just pushing buttons.
	Now, that struck me strange, as I mentioned earlier, because Access to the facility is very carefully controlled.
	As you mentioned, yes.
	Especially around launch time.
	Of course.
	How close to launch was this, Ted?
	Well, this had to be a matter of hours before because they would have gone through a great number of pre-flight checks previous to that to make sure everything was up and running and set in the correct mode.
	Gotcha.
	Okay, so this had to happen in a fairly small window of time.
	And he has to be out of there before the doors are shut.
	Right.
	The steel doors are shut.
	You cannot get out.
	Outside of the men's rooms are chests with yellow and black tape.
	And I asked an engineer, I said, what's the purpose of this?
	He said, if you're caught in the men's room and a launch occurs, you must promptly get into one of these suits or you will die.
	It turns out the yellow fumes you see being spewed out are extremely toxic when you see a launch.
	Probably the effect of burning hydrazine.
	So along with a great amount of steam, there's also a great amount of toxic material that's generated
	as a sidebar. All right, all right. Okay.
	The, I asked him, I said, why would someone be doing this?
	And there was no explanation given.
	Now, Richard and I were talking earlier.
	About what can happen if a clamp is released too late when you're holding down a booster with... Let me... In other words... Let me kind of pick it up here, because people need to understand that in addition to passive systems, you know, the temperature and the pressures and the strains on just the structure, that big steel gantry that we see all around the shuttle just before launch... Yes.
	One of the parts of this system that it's measuring is the timing of the explosive bolt firing that releases the shuttle from the pad.
	In other words, it ignites and begins to apply a lot of pressure to want to get up in the air and they hold it to a certain point and then release it, right?
	There is a computer called the central sequencer, the general sequencer, which is loaded with the program.
	And what it's doing is sending commands to ignite the solid, the liquid fuel engines.
	You know, you see the sparklers, and then those three liquid hydrogen engines come on.
	Absolutely.
	See the close-up?
	Yes, sir.
	Then you see the wide-angle shot.
	Usually they switch the camera, and you see those two huge solids on each side, which have one and a half million pounds of thrust for each side, all right?
	Right.
	That's three million pounds of thrust straining upward to lift this sucker into the air.
	Right.
	In microseconds after that ignition, when the sensors say that the thrust is steady down, they must fire those bolts or else that whole damn pad goes up in the air.
	I mean, this is an enormous amount of force being held down by very small, relatively speaking, bolts.
	And if they are misfired, if the bolts disconnect in the wrong sequence at the wrong time, you get enormous sideways strain.
	And remember, those solid fuel boosters on each side are made in segments.
	They're not solid all the way up.
	They're not a complete cylinder like a big pen.
	I was leading up to all this, but go ahead.
	And in between each of those little segments, there are gaskets, there are rings, and there are these rubber O-rings.
	Right.
	Now, what happens when you tilt or strain sideways on a cylinder made up of separate cylinders with little gaskets in between?
	You wind up opening a side vent.
	Sure, you burn a hole through it.
	And then the gas will escape sideways.
	In other words, if this doesn't go off exactly within microseconds of the timing, the side weight forces, with all that enormous thrust trying to get this thing in the air.
	Understood.
	And it being held down, you could do irreparable damage to the integrity of the solid boosters, and then 72 seconds later, you get catastrophe.
	Now, why would one want to cut off the sensor system to the pad at that critical release point?
	Suppose someone wanted those hold-down explosive bolts to fire improperly, that the commands were literally encoded in the computer and they wanted to cover up A deliberate sabotage in the most elegant way that would be literally untraceable provided there was no data from the pad.
	Provided there was no data.
	And there was no data because somebody, a person, went in, flipped up the protector, and threw the switch to off.
	Ted, you never got an answer about who that was?
	Why they did it?
	No satisfactory answer at all?
	No satisfactory answer.
	At the time, my main concern was vindication of the product, that the product did not cause the loss of data.
	I was greatly concerned about that.
	Of course.
	That was the work you had done.
	Yes.
	And so that would have reflected immediately on you.
	So I see why you were concerned.
	Yes.
	Yeah, that was truly my major focus.
	And, you know, at the time, my view of the space program was not as enlightened as it's become over the last 12 years.
	Especially in the last few years, from what I have seen myself, as I'm sure you've probably talked about on your show at one point, how after one or two incidences of payload bay cameras picking up some very unusual high atmospheric and suborbital, how shall we say, anomalies, STS-848 and STS-80 come to life.
	Yeah, we have remarkable video.
	And then they began to scramble the downlink.
	And they scrambled it from the shuttle to TDRS, which is their television and data relay satellite, on down to the tracking station.
	They didn't take any chances.
	They began scrambling it right up there at the KU band feed on the shuttle, which is very interesting.
	It is.
	Ted, I might take the opposite track, and I might say, look, The shuttle has had quite a number of military missions.
	The shuttle is probably monitoring some weapons systems that are either in space or on the ground and returning video to the ground for that purpose and for that reason they might wish to scramble the signal from the shuttle so that they can do classified stuff from time to time.
	Would that be reasonable?
	I think it was a combination of two things.
	I think what you're saying is reasonable and correct.
	I also think there might have been an incident that wasn't a drill or a test where they really had to do something about a vehicle in the atmosphere or suborbital that needed to be, shall we say, removed.
	Alright, well listen, back to your story.
	Ted, what was your position, exact position, when all of this occurred?
	What were you doing?
	As in, I'm sorry, the exact position?
	Your exact position.
	In other words, what were you in charge of?
	What was your title?
	With regard to the space program, what were you responsible for?
	I was director of engineering in a company that built switching systems.
	The specific switching system used that we just talked about?
	Yes.
	And I've done a number of systems for NASA over the years.
	That was just two of them we did.
	Richard, any other critical questions that you think we should ask of Ted?
	Well, obviously we're not speculating as to who.
	We're not really even speculating as to why.
	The facts are here.
	We have a responsible individual who was present in the launch complex system, who is in charge of a critical component, is reporting now that that pad telemetry was somehow mysteriously interrupted for several hours prior to launch through launch.
	And the question I have is, When the flight director does his call around the loop, checking all the various subsystems from downrange to fueling to astronaut, you know, pressurization to cockpit integrity, all those things you hear on these air-to-ground loops on the NASA Select Channel.
	Why didn't this stop the launch?
	Precisely.
	That implies, since it did not, that there have to be more than one person involved, and that strongly implies a cover-up And that strongly implies, Houston, we've got a bigger problem than anybody has imagined.
	Ted, I want to thank you.
	I hope that for telling this story, that you're not going to have any repercussions.
	Is there anything you've left out?
	Anything you feel you should add?
	Well, a couple business friends of mine said you could probably forget about getting any new NASA contracts.
	That's probably true.
	I think the truth is far more important.
	Ted, let me pick up on something that we discussed this afternoon.
	What's that?
	We talked about integrity.
	We talked about honesty.
	We talked about, as I've said many times, most of the system is honest.
	You know, you're an engineer.
	Ken Johnson is an engineer.
	There are people at JPL during last fall that provided us engineering confirmation of some
	extraordinary data that NASA does not acknowledge.
	What Ted and I discussed this afternoon is how do we get more honest people like Ted
	to simply come forward and tell the American people the truth.
	Well, one at a time, and now that he's come forward, maybe others will.
	I want to ask both of you a question.
	Can either one of you supply me with a reason why an individual on his own, or more ominously, would be instructed to go and shut off the remote data capability Uh, hours before launch.
	Moreover, can either one of you answer why, once it was shut off and wasn't being received, why it would not have aborted the launch automatically?
	Either one of you have answers to those questions?
	Ed?
	Well, I have a comment to make on that.
	I think it's quite possible that launch was doomed not to work.
	It's interesting, it was hauling a TDRS satellite, which is one of their own satellites, To be placed in orbit, which is only used for shuttle support.
	The TDRS, there's two of them up there.
	Right.
	Communications.
	Yes.
	And then you think about this, perhaps at that point we were told to stay out of space, as it appeared a couple weeks back, you know, when your show discussed the The headline that was breaking all over the country.
	Right.
	But again, you're really not answering the question I asked, Ted, and that was, can either one of you think of any logical, explainable reason why somebody would have been sent in there to turn it off, or somebody would have turned it off and it wouldn't have stopped the launch?
	Other than reaching out for a conspiracy of some sort, is there any practical reason that would have been done?
	I cannot think of a practical reason, especially in view of the fact that access to the facility is controlled, and it's almost like a facility in a facility, you know, on the overall Kennedy Space Complex.
	All right, I think that I've got the picture, Ted, and at this point I'm going to thank you and discuss with Richard why it would not have aborted the launch.
	Ted, thank you.
	Yes, you're welcome.
	Take care.
	That's Ted Tweetmeyer, a very brave man who probably Is not going to get another NASA contract now.
	Richard?
	Yes, sir?
	Why would that, no matter whether it was intentional or unintentional, why would that not have stopped, aborted a launch?
	It should have.
	There is no conceivable protocol that should have allowed that mission to go forward if the data as Ted represents is as advertised.
	And that, of course, takes us where, as more and more people are telling me, we don't want to go.
	You know, I've decided I'm going to set up a travel agency called the I Don't Want to Go There Travel Agency.
	Because more people, as this investigation, as the Enterprise Mission Investigation gets closer to who is doing it to us and why, they tell me, I don't want to go there.
	And unfortunately, we're going to have to go there, because unless we get to the bottom of this and find out who is deliberately sabotaging a range of missions, from
	turning off cameras before critical data comes in, to potentially deliberately killing seven brave
	Americans. We are not going to have not only the space program we deserve, but the
	government we deserve. We have to go there. We can't ignore this any longer.
	I, you know, I'm just a layman, but I can't imagine in my wildest dreams why they would
	turn off critical data right now.
	Why the absence of that critical data, under any circumstances, would not have aborted the launch.
	I'm not prepared to call it murder.
	I'm prepared to say, we need to know what happened that day.
	We need an explanation.
	I'm not sure who we go to to demand it.
	I'm a little lost here, but I know that we just heard a very, very important story from Mr. Tweedmire.
	Who has nothing to gain and everything to lose by coming forth with this particular representation.
	Yeah, the average person in the public, Richard, I think can understand what he has to lose by telling what he just told.
	You know, everything.
	Virtually everything.
	I mean, you can lose your job, your career, your retirement, your reputation, You can lose it all.
	This is not an anonymous source.
	This is an individual, an engineer of many years' expertise, standing behind a very serious charge.
	And we need to get to the bottom, because to me, of course, Art, this merely reinforces a developing, awful picture of an agency which is being manipulated and used for purposes that, frankly, no one can fathom.
	And every time we put a new piece of data on the board and say, this is where it's going, more people keep saying to me, I don't want to go there.
	And I'm getting tired of it.
	For 15 years, I've been trying to answer a simple question.
	Why, with the most extraordinary possibility in human history, the discovery of alien artifacts or our own ancient artifacts right next door on another planet, As the space agency has done everything to confuse, obfuscate, delay, lie, cheat, and simply, you know, use hypocrisy in dealing with the American people as opposed to trying to find out what's there.
	And as I have pursued this question, and more people have come on board, and we've now gotten people within the agency who, unfortunately, are not as brave as Ted is, and have had to go to us quietly on background and not use their names.
	Yes.
	I have developed, unfortunately, really unassailable data indicating, I'm going to use the C word, a conspiracy of monumental proportions to the point where we're now on the verge of confirmation of who is behind this conspiracy and why.
	Alright, on that note.
	What I'm going to do is turn you over to the audience now, Richard.
	I think that I have asked most of the questions that I want to ask.
	Next comes the audience.
	From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	We gotta get right back to where we started from.
	Love is good, love can be strong.
	We gotta get right back to where we started from.
	To talk with Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from outside the U.S., first, dial your access number to the USA.
	Then, 800-893-0903.
	If you're a first-time caller, call Art at 702-727-1222.
	If you're a first-time caller, call Art at 702-727-1222.
	From east of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	West of the Rockies.
	including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico.
	Call Art at 1-800-618-8255 or call Art on the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
	This is Coast to Coast AM from the Kingdom of Nye.
	It certainly is.
	Good morning, everybody.
	What I've done is I have on my studio cam on the website now
	just two cycling photographs.
	One of me and the other of my outside cam.
	Unfortunately it does not pick up the drenching rain and you can just barely see the drenched desert ground behind my satellite dish with the amount of light I can cast on it at this hour.
	Folks, cats and dogs coming down here.
	And again, for those of you in the Southern California area, from San Diego through Malibu and north, please be aware there are warnings out for flooding, mudslides, and all that goes on as these El Nino storms continue to pound us.
	This is a particularly bad one.
	In a moment, We'll get back to Richard C. Hoagland, and we are just about to go into a period of time when we are going to, from you, take questions for him.
	As a matter of fact, we're going to do that right away, as soon as I tell you about Beijing.
	Storms are coming.
	No, wrong.
	Storms are here all across the country, and I want to appeal to everybody out there.
	Listen to me closely for a minute.
	Will you please There are two things that you will find you immediately want when the power goes out.
	God knows I've been having enough of that trouble lately.
	We've made it through the night so far.
	Thank you very much electric cooperative here in Peru.
	But at any moment we could lose power.
	And when we do, the first thing we run for is the Beijing radio.
	This is a 7-pound portable radio that covers AM, FM and shortwave.
	It plays at full room volume.
	It doesn't use batteries.
	It doesn't need to be plugged into the wall.
	It has a crank on the side and a unique patented device within called the Bayless Clockwork Generator.
	Flavor A of the Baygen radio.
	The basic radio is 119.95.
	You turn the crank on the side of this radio for 30 seconds.
	30 seconds, folks.
	And the radio plays at full room volume with no external power source for 30 minutes.
	It should be in every home in America as these storms and our weather worsens.
	Every home.
	Flavor B is even better.
	It's the same Baygen radio, but with a modification in the back.
	It's got a little plug in the back, and they send you a mag light with it.
	You plug in this little mag light with a light-emitting diode device, and it will light an entire room.
	You can read by it.
	Enough light to read by it.
	It's an LED, light-emitting diode.
	Now here's the deal.
	You plug it into the back of the radio, crank the radio as you normally would, Now, the radio plays for 30 minutes and the light lights for 30 minutes.
	The Flavor B Beijing is $149.95.
	Beijing with a light, $149.95.
	Every single American home should have at least one of these two.
	Preferably the Beijing, I think, with a light.
	Call Bob Crane in the morning at 1-800-522-8863.
	at 1-800-522-8863.
	That's 1-800-522-8863.
	The C. Crane Company and the Beijing Radio, you've waited long enough, or maybe by now you've waited too long.
	How?
	I've got the TA-2000 on duty protecting my home with no monthly monitoring fees, and you can do the same.
	Simply call 1-888-541-1306.
	Alright.
	Back now to Richard C. Hoagland.
	We're about to go to the phones.
	I usually have to drag Richard kicking and screaming to the phones, and so I will do that here in a moment.
	Richard, you got a death threat.
	That's very serious.
	Somebody wrote a kind of an interesting article on the internet about me.
	And they said in this, uh, is Art Bell part of a black ops project?
	I don't know if you've had an opportunity to read that.
	Yeah, someone sent me the same thing.
	Yeah, they said it to you.
	All right.
	Well, um, in that they said basically, why is it that the guests that Art Bell has never basically come to any harm and or if they do, um, Art Bell never does?
	Well, the fact is that some of my guests have come to harm.
	Um, David Oates had his house burned down, and now you have received a fairly serious death threat.
	Can you give us the rough... I know you've got it recorded on tape, but it's not convenient to play right now.
	Can you tell us roughly what was said?
	Well, this entails a little bit of a story.
	Several months ago, an individual approached us, volunteering to work in research and other aspects of enterprise.
	And we were particularly struck by this person's credentials because they were ex-NSA, ex-Navy, Naval Intelligence, and most interestingly, cryptography, codes.
	And there's a lot of traffic and a lot of information that now crosses our desk from sources out there, people like Ted, who, on background, provide us information that requires that level of expertise.
	And there are several ex-NSA people who have come to us.
	We had one stand with us on the stage in Phoenix last July, Vance Davis, who has been very helpful and continues to be very helpful.
	There's some others that don't want to be public, and I'm obviously not going to make them public tonight.
	This individual came to us, and one of the first things I did was to provide this individual with a tape that clearly seemed to have a code in it In any casual inspection.
	This was a piece of video.
	Okay.
	I provided the same piece of video to David, to David Oates.
	Yes.
	To have him reverse it.
	And lo and behold, what I suspected was in this tape, in these statements by a variety of individuals regarding a certain highly public matter, turned out to be there.
	In reverse.
	Very clearly.
	Including The potential perpetrator of the act that I was seeking to confirm.
	We're talking a murder, Art, okay?
	I'm a very visible public figure, relatively recently.
	Yes, sir.
	When I gave this piece of tape to this individual, remember, Do the wild thing at 702-727-1295.
	The radio.
	No, I'm not going to let you say that.
	Okay.
	Let's rephrase it.
	When you gave the tape... When you gave the tape... Gosh, I've now been bleeped by Art Bell.
	Yeah, that's right.
	They'll know what you said.
	The interesting material hit the rotating receptacle.
	How's that?
	Feces?
	Yeah.
	That'll go on national radio.
	No problem there.
	And what apparently happened is, it's like a spiderweb.
	You know, you are never X in any of these intelligence communities.
	You're always on some kind of status.
	So, inadvertently, by seeking additional help from former colleagues, this person got themselves in terrible trouble.
	And the spiderweb was wrong.
	And I have videotape of surveillance of this person's apartment.
	And I actually physically went there one night myself before I realized what was going on and saw two gentlemen sitting in a truck monitoring this person's apartment.
	Well, Ted also said he's under surveillance.
	That's correct.
	Alright, so the death threat.
	To make a long story somewhat shorter, which is not usual for us on the Bell Show.
	I know.
	It got down to where I really was very fearful that this person was in danger because they suddenly disappeared.
	And as part of the disappearance, a message was placed on my voicemail that if I ever attempted to even call or contact this person, there would be dire consequences.
	That that was not a threat, it was a promise.
	I would live to regret it.
	A simple phone call, I would live to regret.
	Now, this is pretty interesting, because it means we were close to something very sensitive.
	The response was so incredibly disproportionate to the facts, that I take this very seriously.
	And as you know, I called you up and I discussed going on the show, to discuss this in some level of detail, with specific names.
	Right.
	Well, I am happy to report tonight that this individual has suddenly re-emerged.
	The system has spit this individual out.
	And I am very confident, given the visibility we've now brought to the issue, that this person and ourselves are in perfectly fine condition.
	So, in other words, the threat of going public?
	Is the antidote.
	That's what I wanted to tell Ted.
	Ted has done the brightest thing possible by going public on your show, by making his case before 20 million concerned Americans.
	Ted may not get another contract, but he will live to get other contracts from other vendors and other government sources because they dare not create bodies.
	This is the threat that can never be achieved once publicity reaches a certain level.
	Now, there is something else, however, which is going on, which I'm very concerned with.
	Because, you know, the death threats don't bother me.
	I knew we could handle that.
	I too have had many of them.
	What bothers me is this incredible concerted attack now on the very foundations of the Enterprise Headquarters here in New Mexico.
	At a legal level, people who formerly were incredibly supportive have been manipulated into becoming vitriolic enemies and at the moment are putting us under extraordinary attack seeking to evict us From the very residence and enterprise headquarters that we moved to some six, seven months ago.
	And if this does not cease, I will name names, as I said before, because this person also was involved in the confiscation of those videotapes from Phoenix.
	And two days after we discussed it on your show, those tapes came back.
	We are dealing with people who are not, who are not brave.
	They are cowards.
	They, they, Attack and threaten women, children, the truth, the integrity of the American process, but when you shine the light of day, or shine the light of concerned Americans on them, they run like cockroaches, as they are.
	And so I am giving these people fair notice.
	If this attack on Enterprise and our investigation does not cease, the next time on this show, Art, I am going to name names, and I will be exquisitely specific, and I guarantee you the soap opera that has led up to this We'll be a riveting five hours.
	All right.
	Done.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hi there.
	Hi.
	Where are you?
	Well, I'm out in East County, out in Spring Valley.
	This is June.
	And, of course, we're suffering floods, you know, down on the west side.
	June, how's it going?
	We're hearing that you're getting maybe an inch an hour down there.
	Is that close to true?
	Well, probably towards Escondido.
	And maybe in the North County, you know, you were just up there to Antonidas not too long ago.
	That's right, up in North.
	Well, I didn't get up there that day.
	Something else was going on.
	I couldn't get over there.
	But the coast there around Del Mar, you know?
	Yes.
	And La Jolla, they're taking a heck of a beating.
	I know.
	Because, you know, you've got houses that have 20-foot backyards.
	Well, they're all gone, you know?
	And the houses are just sort of hanging on the cliff.
	My God.
	It's a real worry because, I mean, we're Up on the Mesa out in Spring Valley.
	We're right below El Cajon.
	Oh, I know where you are.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, you're higher.
	Yeah, so we're up, you know, on the higher ground, but of course, you know, we still have the sewer problems and all the rest of it.
	Sure.
	And the ground out here for years, you know, in various parts of the county, because of a lot of the shoddy building that was done in the 80s, Has been shifting all over the place.
	I know.
	The images I'm seeing on the Weather Channel, which they're showing us from Southern California, you know, with lights and cameras is just horrific.
	So I'm not on my website tonight because my office is next door.
	But I checked your website and I just want to say before I ask Richard my question.
	I've been listening to you now about six months.
	My mom lives in San Francisco.
	She's in her 70s.
	And she kind of put me on to your show, and she said, you've got to listen to this.
	But, you know, being that I work during the day, I don't usually stay up at night, but I'm a regular listener now.
	All right.
	Well, if you have a question for Richard... Well, my question to Richard is, you know, I'm not real sophisticated on the UFO and all the rest of the alien whatever or whatever is out there outside of this planet, but I'm 55 now, and I have never seen a time, you know, when the government The military, NASA, any of it, has ever been truthful with the people.
	Why should they be any different now?
	It all depends on whether we care enough.
	Remember Ben Franklin, after the Constitutional Convention, 250 some years ago, when someone asked him, I believe it was a woman, and she said, Mr. Franklin, what kind of a government do we have?
	And he said, Madam, a republic, if you can keep it.
	The reason we're in this terrible predicament on all fronts, from Iraq to, you know, presidential problems, to the congressional problems we all know about, to huge black budgets without accountability, to a runaway military-industrial complex, which General Eisenhower, President Eisenhower warned us against 30 years ago, is because we have let the experts and the pundits and the elitists literally take us over.
	If we don't manage our own affairs, if we don't take the responsibility of good citizenship, if we don't pay attention, this has happened so many times in the recent history of the human species, the last 6,000 years, that it's part of every course in history.
	You know, those who do not learn from history will live to regret it.
	I think they're doomed to repeat it.
	Exactly.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Good morning.
	All right.
	This is Kathy in Reno.
	Yes, Kathy.
	Okay.
	Mr. Hoagland?
	Yes, ma'am.
	Okay, I have a comment and then I have a question that I really want answered.
	Go ahead.
	Okay.
	First of all, if not physically, we stand shoulder to shoulder with you and your efforts and your drive.
	Thank you.
	And believe me, every day, the hundreds of faxes that come in and the telephone calls give me the confidence to know that if we just continue, we are going to prevail.
	I agree.
	I look forward to hearing you and I worry.
	As long as you care, I don't worry.
	That's why I can be so confident because as long as people are alert and watching, nothing will happen.
	Yeah, that's right.
	Somebody's got to worry though.
	Your sick friend, the man that had the stroke?
	Dr. David Webb.
	Right, okay.
	I sent thoughts of healing to him as you requested.
	Thank you.
	My comment, actually the comment really cracked.
	As far as the truth, the seeking of truth, I tend to agree with Richard in that even the extremely religious individuals, in all of their belief systems there are questions and unanswered little blank points.
	And I think that they would acclimate themselves to the truth just as easily as we would.
	It would just expand their knowledge, their, you know, the vastness of their knowledge in their direction of
	belief. All right, having said that, do you have no no do you have a question? Yes I do, I'm sorry I thought
	you hung up. Okay, um now Mr. Hoagland, am I incorrect in in what I heard? Who was told not to
	leave the planet? Were they, did NASA tell us that we couldn't leave the planet? Or did, it was like
	the whole planet told this?
	Ma'am, hold it.
	Hold it.
	Hold it right there.
	Richard, do you want to explain, please, briefly, because we don't have a lot of time, the whole story behind the memo and then the retraction?
	A few weeks ago, there was a letter sent from a deputy administrator of NASA, very high up in NASA headquarters, canceling, in essence, all research and development monies and projects for any manned spaceflight beyond low Earth orbit, beyond the shuttle.
	That would be to the moon, to Mars, to the outer solar system.
	Anything that would be really interesting, it would capitalize on what we are doing at the moon tonight, which is the Lunar Prospector Mission.
	The discovery of water ice, you know, moon bases, stuff like that.
	All finished.
	Canceled.
	And there was speculation, and I must emphasize it is speculation, based mostly in the UFO stuff, which is going back and forth across the country, including across our show.
	That aliens have imprisoned us, they've quarantined us, they've told us get out of space and don't come back.
	I for one don't believe that for an instant.
	The problem we seek is internal, not external.
	We have to look within.
	Nevertheless, within about a day or two of its airing on the show, Dan Golden suddenly issued what seemed to be a 180 degree A retraction.
	Right, which makes one ask the question, do we have high-level NASA officials running willy-nilly through the corridors of NASA writing memos that nobody means?
	In other words, this is a mystery art that we don't have an answer for tonight.
	Now, I would note that while Dan Golden said, no, it's not so, in that same communique, he did not detail any plans for any manned missions to go anywhere.
	Right.
	Now, we were talking relatively low-level monies, And there's an arcana of the NASA budgeting, which is frankly more confusing than your average tax returns.
	So I don't know where we stand tonight.
	But your question, ma'am, is this.
	You know, who's imposing these strictures if they're real?
	And Ted alluded to the same thing in the last segment.
	I firmly believe that our enemies are within, not without.
	That if someone doesn't want us to go deeper into space, It's not because somebody out there is putting a blanket around us or a picket fence or a ring of barbed wire.
	It's because our internal enemies don't want us to discover and confirm what is out there waiting for us to conceptualize and to assimilate that will radically change everything we think we know and maybe disenfranchise the elitists who are controlling the knowledge flow at the present time.
	All right.
	This, Richard, is where Arthur C. Clarke took issue with you.
	Arthur C. Clarke said, although I can hardly credit it, I heard that he, Richard Hoagland, accused NASA of sabotaging Mars Observer to prevent it revealing that there was a civilization on the planet.
	It seems to me much more likely that NASA would fake such evidence rather than destroy it.
	Well, Arthur again has been the subject of bad rumors.
	And unfortunately, because he's getting on in years, he hasn't taken the time to simply look at monuments to what I actually did say on the record regarding Mars Observer.
	I have never, I'll repeat, I have never claimed that NASA deliberately destroyed that spacecraft.
	That's one of those little vicious rumors that our enemies use over and over and over again.
	What I said, and I backed it up with documentation, is that four engineers from JPL, shortly after the spacecraft disappeared in 93, came to me through various means and claimed that NASA had taken its stealth, that they had sequestered the data And the existence of the mission from even most of the rest of NASA, but that they had not destroyed the spacecraft, they had simply taken it into the black.
	All right, Richard.
	On that note, we're at the top of the hour.
	Hang tight.
	We'll be back to you in some markets.
	From the high and very soggy desert.
	This is a very dangerous Coast to Coast AM.
	If you've been looking for your own...
	If you've been looking for your own...
	...you.
	Lost in every motion in my goose-fluffy shed.
	You.
	You.
	Lost in every motion...
	...feeling my boots numb again.
	Feeling my boots numb again.
	All the devil's over to find the lovers lost today.
	All the devil's over...
	...finding love is no mistake.
	Finding love is no mistake.
	Finding love is no mistake.
	Running every time...
	...you told me...
	...to stay the night.
	Stay the night.
	Stay the night.
	Watching in slow motion...
	...as you surround me today.
	As you surround me today.
	As you surround me today.
	Stay my boots numb again.
	Stay my boots numb again.
	From the Kingdom of Nye...
	...this is Coast to Coast AM...
	...with Art Bell.
	From east of the Rockies, call Art at 1-800-825-5033.
	West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, at 1-800-618-8255.
	First-time callers may reach Art at area code 702-727-1222.
	and New Mexico at 1-800-618-8255.
	First-time callers may reach out at Area Code 702-727-1222.
	And you may fax out at Area Code 702-727-8499.
	Please limit your faxes to one or two pages.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Now again, here's Art.
	Once again, here I am.
	And to repeat briefly with regard to the Mars Global Surveyor and the imaging of Cydonia, Dr. Michael Malin, according to his own website, is threatening to have the camera turned off as Surveyor passes over Cydonia.
	We're trying to prevent that.
	To prevent that, we are faxing Dan Golden, head of NASA, and two media people.
	We're copying them.
	So please, send a fax to Dan Golden, urging him not to turn this camera off.
	His fax number is area code 202.
	That's 2-0-2-3-5-8-28-10-2-8-1-0.
	2-0-2-3-5-8-2-8-1-0.
	Please also copy Ted Koppel of ABC News, his fax number, his area code 2-0-2-2-2-2-7-9-7-6.
	2810. 202-358-2810. Please also copy Ted Koppel of ABC News.
	His fax number is area code 202-222-7976.
	Also please send a copy of that same fax to John Holliman at CNN, which is area code
	Area Code 404-681-3578.
	404-681-3578.
	404-681-3578.
	We'll get back to Richard Hoagland and your questions in a moment.
	255.
	Tomorrow night, Professor Michio Kaku will be here, and it is going to be a fascinating discussion.
	You're not going to want to miss it.
	Back now to Richard C. Hoagland in Albuquerque, where I presume you're still dry, huh?
	You know, I haven't actually looked outside, but I don't hear the pitter-patter on the roof, so it must not be doing anything yet.
	All right.
	Well, you're telling me we got some stuff on the way, huh?
	Well, it's bound to be on the way, because it sure is pounding us right now.
	We're getting light flickers, and I hope the power holds up, Richard.
	Here we go.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Good morning, Rick, in Mississauga.
	Listening in on Talk 640, Toronto.
	In Toronto, all right.
	Yeah, new station.
	Been on the air for a little while now.
	Yes, sir.
	Actually, not a new station, but new affiliators, I take it.
	Indeed.
	A question for Richard.
	All right, thank you very much.
	my theory or ideas are based on.
	Was any piece of the wreckage that was found of the shuttle, was any part or remnant
	of the bodies of these brave souls ever found?
	You mean the actual crewman?
	Yeah. Oh yes, yes.
	Okay, my theory's out the window now, thanks.
	All right, thank you very much.
	The question, and the very tough question, one I think that we've tackled before, Richard,
	is how long these very brave seven were alive after the actual explosion and the subsequent
	plunge to the sea?
	I know it's a tough one.
	That is hard to talk about.
	I watched in horror as that cockpit inside the sleek airframe came apart and it came down.
	You could see the vapor trail.
	We know now from the positions of switches and the turning of oxygen Uh, handles or the individual flight suits, uh, that they survived the explosion and the aerodynamic forces that tore apart the orbiter.
	We do not know whether they survived the impact, which was several long minutes down to the ocean.
	If that crew compartment had had a parachute or something, they probably could have walked away if they had a way of egressing rapidly.
	That's where the shuttle modifications and the procedures that John Glenn is now going through at the Cape in terms of egress under certain abort conditions become so relevant.
	But again, this is all clouded in a layer upon layer of NASA deception and the accusation of outright lies on the part of even the reporting of that investigation.
	You know, on Challengers so many years ago.
	Where does it stop, Art?
	The point is, it only stops when the American people call a halt to it.
	I agree, Richard.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hello, Art and Richard.
	Good evening, or I should say good morning.
	Good morning.
	This is Dave from the Bay Area, and I have a question for both of you.
	Okay.
	I could give you both questions.
	Richard, you mentioned that if they keep harassing you, you will specifically expose what's going on.
	What generically can you say this evening about the who and the why?
	And the question I have for Art is, whatever that harassment and trouble that you had last year was, have you considered if buried layers and layers underneath there actually, it isn't what it seemed to be?
	Of course I've considered that, yes.
	So then, whichever.
	Richard, specifically, I'm interested in what, generically, you can say tonight.
	What I would like, of course, is Art's permission to do a show on this because we can be much more than generic.
	What I am deliberately not doing is naming people who are being manipulated as opposed to the manipulators tonight.
	What I'm trying to do is to allow them the realization that they are about to step into deep quicksand never to return if they continue in their actions at the behest of those behind the scenes I have no compunction against naming the string pullers.
	I do have some sympathy for those who start out in one mode of being supportive, being courageous, wanting to do the right thing, and fall prey to vicious lies and deliberate manipulation to the point where they become avowed enemies through no basic fault other than that they have not done their homework.
	Let me give you an example and point.
	You know, I have an extraordinary friend in Arthur Clark, and I have had for many years.
	In the last couple of weeks, Arthur got, you know, Bart Bell, got a communication from a third party representing certain things said to Arthur without an opportunity for me to respond.
	One of those he just read a few minutes ago on the air.
	That's right.
	The representation that I have ever in any time in any public record said that NASA killed or blew up their own Mars Observer.
	I have never said that.
	In my book, I specifically lay out the scenario that engineers at JPL provided me and which documents that we were able to secure tend to corroborate as well as circumstantial evidence of actions not taken by the agency to recover the spacecraft with flimsy excuses like, oh, it would be too expensive, which in fact should have been rigorously pursued.
	In an effort to get out the truth, writers try to put it on paper and to document with specific sources.
	If other people don't read what we write, we cannot be held responsible.
	But the name of the game of manipulation and lies and deception is you get people not to follow documentation, you get them to follow rumors and half-truths and outright deception.
	So, on behalf of people who would like to see what I have said, To read what I have written, we have an 800 number, and at that 800 number you can see all our videos, you can get copies of the Monuments of Mars, now in its fourth edition, and you can get a copy in the next few weeks of the Phoenix Pathfinder Connection tape that we're currently working on, the tapes which were stolen and returned only after I went on our show and threatened to expose the manipulators.
	And that 800 number, for some very important source material, And documentation of what we are saying, not what we're not saying, is 1-888-338-8581.
	That's 1-888, that's an 800 number, toll free, 338-8581.
	And literally tonight, there are operators standing by.
	Okay.
	Good.
	First Time Caller line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hello?
	Hello, where are you?
	I'm in San Diego, California.
	Yes, well, it's a rainy San Diego.
	Yeah, I'm in a Marriott, so it's pretty comfortable in here.
	Good.
	Go ahead.
	Okay, I had a question for Richard about his background.
	I've heard his show before, but I couldn't recall everything about his background.
	I wonder if he could tell me just real quick.
	Uh, what do you want to know?
	In other words, his educational background?
	Just, you know, some of the most amazing things he has done.
	All right.
	Richard, do you want to tell them a little bit about yourself?
	I guess there are people new to you.
	Okay.
	Well, I was Curator of Astronomy and Space Science at the Museum of Science in Springfield for many years.
	That's where I got involved with NASA in producing some pioneering programs around Mars.
	We did the first transcontinental live broadcast on the Mars flyby of Mariner 4 back in 1965.
	I became Assistant Director of the Jenga Science Center.
	I then got a call one day from Walter Cronkite Which, of course, I thought in terms of Bill Cosby, come on, who is this?
	Because I couldn't imagine that Cronkite staff would call me, who at that time was, I think, about 20, 21 years of age.
	But it was true.
	I became Walter's science advisor.
	I learned an incredible amount of important information on how media can either, you know, convey the truth or be used to deliberately misconstrue the truth, which has stood me, I think, in good stead in the ensuing years.
	I then went to the Hayden Planetarium in New York City.
	I became a NASA consultant to the Goddard Space Flight Center.
	I'm just hitting the high spots here.
	I have led independent science expeditions.
	I, when Eric Burgess suggested to Dr. Sagan the plaque on Pioneer, which became our first message into the galaxy, to the stars, never to return.
	I won an Angstrom Medal in 1993 for the work on Cydonia and hyperdimensional physics.
	And I am pursuing an exploration into how far the truth extends in terms of science, but parallel, Art, I am pursuing an exploration into how far people will go before enough is enough, and they simply demand that their government be responsive to the wishes of its citizens.
	All right, Richard.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Yes, hello.
	Good morning, Art.
	Where are you?
	Good morning, Richard.
	This is Mike in Philadelphia.
	Good morning.
	I have three questions for you, Richard.
	What do you think about SETI?
	Do you believe that we're communicating with the cosmos in secret?
	And do you believe that we have technologies from other places in the universe?
	And I'll hang up for the answer.
	Thank you very much.
	Bye.
	What do I think about SETI?
	Well, SETI is the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence.
	It is the paradigm that if E.T.
	exists out there, E.T.
	will phone NASA, as I've said many times.
	And frankly, Art, I think it's an absolute deception and a waste of time and a complete disinformational trail.
	Because as long as we think we're going to be getting radio signals, nobody is looking for artifacts and nobody is looking for spacecraft dropping by.
	Well, let's for a second, though, stay with SETI.
	SETI is looking, albeit on many frequencies, on discrete frequencies.
	In electromagnetic spectrum.
	Yeah, that's right.
	And the last time I had Dr. Kaku on, Professor Kaku, he said, you know, we have now spread spectrum technology.
	And if you wanted to get a signal from A to B across vast distances and past planets and noise-making stars and all the rest of it, You would send a spread spectrum signal of some kind.
	You might put a marker someplace.
	Right.
	But you'd send a spread spectrum signal.
	He said, we're not looking at all in the right way.
	And it could be that we're being blasted with contact and we wouldn't even know it.
	Yeah.
	And without getting too technical, there is a modulation technique called pseudo random noise coding, which even NASA uses.
	Sure.
	Which is kind of like spread spectrum.
	The most efficient use of any bandwidth.
	Think of bandwidth in telecommunications as the size of the pipe that you want to send the signal down.
	That's right.
	The most efficient use of the pipe is to spread the information across the width of the band so that it looks to the uninitiated who doesn't have the code to decode it.
	Like noise.
	It's random white noise.
	That's absolutely right.
	So, I mean, from the get-go, the whole SETI concept has very serious fallacies at its core.
	And I agree with Dr. Kaku that in fact, it probably is not technically the most elegant way of seeing if we're alone.
	And politically, I can now guarantee you that given NASA's own activities and own behavior on the Sedonia question.
	Remember, David Oates, on your program, revealed that the NASA people are saying in reverse, we're involved with Sedonia while declaiming up and down that they could care less.
	When will it stop?
	Actually, actually, you know what, Richard?
	That particular reversal I found to be the most incredible reversal that I think I've ever heard of any reversal on any subject out of anybody's mouth.
	The odds of the word Cydonia ever coming up, ever, ever, ever coming up in reverse have got to be There must be as many zeros behind it as there are that that face is something natural.
	Exactly.
	A very good comparison.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Yeah.
	Do that radio.
	I can't hear you.
	All right.
	He's going to have to speak up good and loud.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in Minnesota.
	All right.
	Go ahead.
	Quickly.
	I was an eyewitness to the Challenger explosion.
	I was living in Florida at the time, and I've researched it quite a bit, and I think, I always felt that a lot of times they missed that the Russians were watching most of the launches prior.
	Gives me a little nervous.
	But the Russians had a ship.
	They always did, yes.
	Oh, sure.
	They got trawlers.
	The newscasters even mentioned it several times.
	Yep.
	And they also had a liquid fuel rocket satellite on board that was part of the explosion?
	Well, there was a TDRS satellite which had a solid fuel interim upper states, the so-called IUS, that would boost it into its geosynchronous orbit.
	There was not a liquid fuel.
	There was a plan later to send the Galileo spacecraft in the shuttle in a similar configuration on a liquid-fueled Centaur rocket, and that was immediately scrapped.
	Engineers said, good God, if this could happen, what could happen if something happened in the payload bay?
	And so that was the reason for the inordinate delay in getting the Galileo ultimately to Jupiter.
	I want to make another point, though.
	What people don't remember is after the Challenger disaster, we had two other Equally serious disasters.
	There was a Delta unmanned rocket that left the Cape and blew up.
	And there was a Titan 3 or Titan 4, I forget which, launched from Vandenberg, which also blew up in a spectacular cloud of debris within a few days or weeks maybe.
	And at that point, for years, literally a couple of years, in the words of Scotty, Not Scotty Rowland, but the real Scotty.
	Yeah.
	We couldn't beam up as much as a fly.
	In other words, our entire launch capacity, the ability of this nation to get anything into space for a short couple of years, was totally shut down.
	And if there was sabotage, and if this was a conspiracy, I would focus my attention on that effect and what the other guys On the other side of the world, we're doing while we were stuck on the ground.
	All right.
	Good enough.
	Hold tight, Richard.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	My guest is Richard C. Hoagland.
	If you have a question for him, that's what phones and phone lines are for.
	Boy, is it raining.
	From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm Art Bell.
	I'm Art Bell.
	And...
	Hey, hey, Pauline loves me.
	To Tartwood Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye.
	From east of the Rockies, dial 1-800-825-5033.
	West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, 1-800-618-8255.
	First time callers may reach Art at area code 702-727-1222.
	That's right.
	And I want to talk to you for a second about accuracy.
	Area code 702-727-1295.
	To recharge from outside the US, first dial your access number
	to the USA, then 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM from the kingdom of Nye with Art Bell.
	That's right.
	And I want to talk to you for a second about accuracy.
	I don't know about you, but I'm an absolute nut for accuracy,
	particularly when it comes to time.
	It really means a lot to me.
	I've got a clock that I live by.
	I'm on a network.
	If I don't come and go at the right times, I disturb thousands of people, and I have people cursing at me, and all kinds of things happen.
	It's terrible.
	So I've got to be on time, in and out of my breaks, and what I do it with is the Zeit clock.
	I've got a Zeit clock, and you can have one now, too.
	It's mounted right above me.
	It is a remarkable, remarkable clock.
	That actually receives a radio signal from the National Bureau of Standards in Boulder, Colorado about six times an hour and sets itself.
	So your clock has the accuracy of the National Bureau of Standards atomic clock in Boulder.
	It is Actually, a clock that is so accurate that previously only laboratories, labs, have been able to have it.
	Now you can have it, and boy, at what a price, too.
	They just increased by about five times the amount of power coming from Boulder, Colorado, the radio signal, so that these clocks never, ever mess up, even in the worst kind of storm like the one we've got going on right now.
	This clock is deadly accurate, actually, to within one second in a million years.
	It is a 12-inch wall clock with two flavors.
	The Zeit Radio Controlled Wall Clock, European Railroad style, with temperature and humidity dials as well, is $99.95.
	That's the expensive one.
	An even better buy is the Zeit Radio Controlled Clock, traditional style with numerals, just like a school clock.
	You remember the one at school, right?
	$79.95.
	It runs on one AA battery.
	It's just absolutely a remarkable clock, and without it, I don't know what I'd do.
	You should have one, too.
	And by the way, when the time change comes, you know, daylight savings time, you just go to bed and forget it.
	This clock automatically, the hands run around, and it resets itself during the night.
	Finally!
	I've been waiting for a clock like this and I bet you have too.
	The number to call in the morning to get one is 1-800-522-8863.
	The Sea Crane Company and the Zeit Clock at 1-800-522-8863.
	Are you ready to lose but the pain?
	The Sea Crane Company and the Zeitgeist Clock at 1-800-522-8863.
	Or you will lose but the pay.
	Back now to the mountains of New Mexico near Albuquerque and Richard C. Hoagland.
	The higher desert.
	Richard, there's a lot of people out there who want to know why you left New York City, urban boy that you were, and moved to a mountain in New Mexico.
	There's a lot of curiosity about that.
	You know, this is fascinating.
	I have moved so many times in my reasonably young life so far.
	My dad was in the moving business, and we moved from the East Coast to the West Coast, to Indiana, back to the East Coast.
	We moved north and south.
	I mean, moving to me is almost like second nature.
	It depends on the appropriateness of the environment.
	And now with the internet, with the ability to do your show from anywhere, I mean, why would I possibly want to be in the urban mess of New York when I can walk out of my veranda and look a hundred miles away and see maces and blue sky and watch Roadrunners from my kitchen window and sit typing on the new book you know, while cats frolic, you know, out in front of the
	glass. I mean, this is a lifestyle improvement par excellence. And frankly, it's also the
	Enterprise Mission headquarters and somebody's trying to take it away from me and it ain't
	gonna work. Well, I concluded the same thing years ago. And at that time, there was just barely
	enough technology to allow somebody like me to do what I do from where I do it.
	But it's absolutely true, and now the cycle is absolutely complete with the internet connections fast, satellite technology available.
	I've got it all here.
	I've got as much as any major city newsroom has and maybe more.
	I am 20 minutes from culture, from the university, from a major international airport, and yet if I want to get lost, nobody will ever find me.
	I have an extraordinary environment where living takes precedence once again.
	So everybody's looking for this horrible, dire reason.
	It's like, oh my God, if you went to live with sagebrush, the world must be coming to an end day after tomorrow.
	Sorry gang, this is an improvement!
	Well, you see how people leap to conclusions, Richard?
	Yep.
	Every day.
	Yeah, first time caller line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hello, sir.
	Hi, where are you?
	I'm on an Air Force base in Canada.
	Cold Lake, if you've ever heard of it.
	No, but fine.
	What part of Canada?
	It's Alberta.
	It's an F-18 training base.
	It's actually the biggest we have in the country.
	Excellent.
	Welcome to the program.
	Two things.
	Oh, thank you.
	Two things.
	I can mention just something quick about the shuttle.
	We were talking about that earlier.
	Sure.
	And something, a question about Cedronia.
	One of my buddies did the test pilot school in England.
	I don't know if Richard is familiar with that, but that's where the test pilots go to do the training.
	And he met a chap that was from the States, and he was involved, had been involved with NASA.
	And he did say that the Challenger disaster, this is hearsay now because it's third hand, After the actual explosion, the separation of the shuttle from the, what is it, the liquid hydrogen fuel tank, there was conversation apparently on the way down.
	I don't know whether that was like VHF or UHF or whether it was just a flight data recorder, but apparently the pilot called the altitudes on the way down.
	I have not heard that.
	Oh, okay.
	Sardonia.
	This is definitely very important.
	And I'm just wondering, I fired off a couple of faxes down to Mr. Golden, but I think from Mark's surprise attack the last time, they probably have a strategy because I've got a new Dell, and a 233 Meg, and I'm getting through, and it's downloading, but it's not accepting it.
	You know, he may have a dislocate on it or something, but I just wondered.
	That's why you send them to other media, including Koppel and Holloman.
	That's right.
	Absolutely.
	What about, though, like the military, you know, the chain of command.
	Sometimes when you have to get things done, you go above their heads.
	What if we get a hold of the governments, like i.e.
	Canadian Well, I think that the other two numbers you've been given, the one for Ted Koppel and John Holloman, are the insurance policy.
	that's listening tonight, if we miss this opportunity, we're going back into the dark ages.
	Well, I think that the other two numbers you've been given, the one for Ted Koppel and John Holloman,
	are the insurance policy. Whether Golden turns his fax machine off or not,
	or runs out of paper, and I'm sure he ran out hours ago, it won't matter.
	As you know, back in New York, it's coming up on 6 o'clock.
	They'll be tending to the newsrooms of CNN and ABC.
	And you will get through.
	Let me tell you why I want to keep the pressure on Golden.
	Dan Golden has gone on record and said, I will take these pictures.
	Oh, absolutely.
	Promise me.
	We are in the process of pillorying a president.
	For lying.
	Alright?
	Not for doing something, but for lying.
	What's good for the President means you can't ever tell a lie.
	Then Mr. Golden may be caught in the biggest lie of all, which is far more significant than what Mr. Clinton is going through, and Mr. Golden deserves to be held to the same standard.
	I agree.
	And the insurance policy is Coppola and Holloman.
	Alright, Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	This is Denise from Livermore, California.
	Welcome.
	I had two quick questions for Mr. Hoagland, and then a couple of comments, if I could.
	One was, if memory serves me right, wasn't Morton Thiokol, basically, and the other contractors too, kind of absolved from all blame?
	I think that was like the outcome that Congress had come to, because I thought it was kind of interesting, like when they were afraid they were going to be sued.
	Didn't something come out of that, that government contractors involved with this couldn't be sued?
	I'm not aware of the specific legalistics.
	I know that SIACOL was part of the investigation, and basically their engineers, the night before, in a conference call, had warned NASA, don't try to launch.
	That was my other question.
	They had warned them about the O-rings.
	Well, that's right.
	Well, because of the temperatures.
	Given the other remarkable new data that, uh, you know, uh, Mr. Twitzer, um, is it Tweetser?
	Uh, Tweetmire.
	Tweetmire, uh, presented this evening.
	We now have to seriously ask the question, how many coincidences do you allow before you begin to seriously question your sanity?
	Sure.
	The fact that the pad monitoring system, which includes those explosive bolt firings at liftoff, was deliberately disabled raises profound and serious questions about everything we've been told about Challenger.
	Everything.
	And the other quick comment I wanted to make is I don't, I'm not able to turn in until like one in the morning California time and you had mentioned a friend of yours having a stroke or something?
	Yes.
	And this kind of goes back to something I've heard on a rebroadcast of your show, in fact it was November 2nd about I don't remember what it was specifically, magnetic changes, and you had a prior guest, I think it was Sean David Morton, talked about more brain injuries coming about?
	Yes.
	Okay, eight days after that, November 10th, my mother suffered a stroke and is in a coma still because of it, and there's four people right within My neighborhoods that have all suffered strokes.
	I just thought that was interesting so I wanted to make a comment about that.
	Alright, well, I appreciate it and of course there are questions about projects like the HAARP project in Alaska and their effect on biological entities like us.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hello there.
	Hello.
	Yes, you're on the air.
	Oh, I thought you were.
	That's alright.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Toronto, Canada.
	Time certainly is nigh and I would say that the key word tonight is pressure.
	I tuned in early into the show and I unfortunately dozed off for a couple of hours and woke up again and got you on another station and what Richard and you are saying, absolute key words being truth, responsibility, integrity, You working in radio art, you must have heard of the great Canadian Marshall McLuhan?
	Oh yes!
	And we do live in a global village, and what the officer in Alberta said a little while ago, you know, I'm in a basement, I'm very low-tech, you know, and I can pick you up on many different stations, and I know that people all over the world hear you, and it goes beyond this one issue, we all know that.
	I'm a novice to your show, about six months now, But I'm pretty well versed in many of your subjects, and I'm glad you're out there.
	Richard, I'm glad you're out there.
	Thank you.
	And anybody that says you're nuts for where you've moved to, they just don't get it yet.
	They don't get it.
	You're right.
	It seems there are a lot of very spiritual people.
	I don't know if it's part of an escapist myth or something.
	My other friend, Arthur Clark, who we've talked about.
	I would say Arthur Clark, who we've talked about earlier tonight.
	Once told me many years ago, he says, Dick, any man who commutes more than 30 seconds from office to home is a fool.
	And this is from the inventor of the communications satellite.
	Now that we have the net, Anybody who wants to live in New York City is, in my estimation, a fool.
	Richard, I've got an email here that says, alright, the only fax number that Richard gave out that appears to be working right now is ABC's.
	The others either don't answer or are not correct.
	Could you please confirm that they are the correct numbers?
	Okay.
	So, Dan Golden, I have his area code 202-358-2810.
	That's correct.
	Alright.
	ABC's is working, so we'll skip that.
	John Holliman, at CNN, is area code 4046813578.
	Those are the same numbers that are on our website at EnterpriseMission.com.
	Ah, so if people aren't sure, they can go to my website, jump over to yours, and read the numbers there.
	And remember, you know, my old alma mater is no single point failure.
	So we're giving you three numbers.
	If one is working, Ted Koppel will get the message.
	I mean, I sat down with him years ago and he said, you know, I had to bring him proof of a conspiracy.
	This is as close to proof on the Sedonia issue as anyone could come.
	Just before you're going to get the opportunity, after 22 years of waiting, you turn off the damn camera.
	And I suspect they're turning off their fax machines.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Mr. Arden and Mr. Richard.
	I'm calling from Seattle.
	Yes, sir.
	Actually, this question might seem off the wall for you, Mr. Hoagland.
	And, well... Not after 15 years.
	Well, what it basically is, is would you consider this civilization, ours right now, to be a civilization with amnesia?
	Yes.
	Wow.
	See, well, you know that Graham Hancock and Robert Bavall and I are friends and colleagues and that Graham was on Tom Snyder a year or so ago and said some very nice and eloquent things about our research and how it correlates with his research.
	If we are looking at Mars in terms of a prior human civilization, if we're not looking at aliens, if we're looking at our stuff, Then it frankly makes even more sense that this group, which I'm going in on naming, would be the last ones to want us to know that.
	Because their claim is they're the only ones who should have access to this kind of knowledge and information in terms of lineal descendancy and heritage and, may I use the word, racial preferences.
	And we'll leave it at that for tonight.
	All right.
	Okay, well, great.
	Thank you.
	Thank you very much, and have a good morning.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hi, my name's James, and I'm from Portland, Oregon.
	Yes, James.
	I had a question for Mr. Hoagland about the material that was presented to, is that Christian Broadcasting Network, CBN?
	CBN, yes.
	Now, Pat Robertson, he heard this material, and I was wondering, is he the one that's pretty much said this is demon stuff from, you know, stuff from the devil?
	Well, his precise quotes several years later, subsequent to the airing of the segment on our Cydonia Research, which was many years ago, this is back in, I think, 88, is when they came down and did the piece and then put it on the CBN network, was in reference to UFOs.
	And, you know, I don't do windows and I don't do UFOs, but, of course, we've got something flying around in the shuttle video, so I guess that's not a hard and fast rule.
	My point was, regardless of the particular position of one evangelist, real Christians really want truth.
	You can't be a Christian and not want the truth.
	It's impossible.
	Therefore, there is no intrinsic conflict if you really are seeking the truth.
	And I have another question about that.
	STS-80 video footage?
	Are you still planning to put that out?
	We are working on it.
	That really is a good question, Richard.
	We've been sitting on that one a long time now.
	Well, we've had some interesting impediments in terms of the analysis.
	One of my colleagues, a former aerospace engineer, went to great lengths to try to get data out of NASA and got absolutely stonewalled in all directions.
	And only with the help of Holloman did we finally get this data sprung loose.
	John Holloman.
	That's why John's fax number is being listed tonight.
	We are in the process of editing not only the Phoenix video, which will have some remarkable correlations and updates for the Phoenix conference, and again, additional reasons why a group would not want us to know the truth, but we're also, in the same time frame, going to do SDS-AD, And finally get it out there so you can see what NASA is keeping you from realizing in the way of remarkable propulsion systems photographed
	By the shuttle itself.
	Yeah, it's such a remarkable video.
	I found it hard sitting on that, Richard.
	I've picked it up a dozen times over the last several months and said, you know... You are gaining brownie points in heaven art.
	Oh well.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Where are you?
	Calling from the very wet Mojave Desert near Edwards Air Force Base.
	Indeed.
	He stole some of my thunder.
	It was similar to that question.
	It goes with the rain.
	It all goes something else.
	I was doing some research.
	Of course, you know, this is the birthplace of the space shuttle.
	All of the shuttles were built here.
	That's where the Enterprise first flew.
	You're absolutely right.
	All of them were built here.
	Yes.
	Palmdale near here.
	So, I was interested looking for some information regarding economic impact.
	This may explain NASA's quick turnaround on the far space missions.
	Yeah, on low Earth orbit.
	Yeah.
	The President used his line item veto to knock out the funding for the engine work and propulsion systems for Uh, the spacecraft.
	That's right.
	Well, of course, the U.S.
	Congress.
	And then the Congress turned right around a few days later and reinstated the funds.
	They overrode his veto.
	And it's, well, because his veto is not constitutional anymore, anyway.
	Well, anyhow, that may account for the, uh, turnabout.
	But, madam, except this memo was issued before the budget itself was actually published.
	It was an intention by NASA not to pursue, and then Golan reversed it And put it back in NASA's proposal for the budget before it even reached the hill.
	Okay, Richard, we are out of time.
	So it's sort of last word time here.
	If you have anything you want to tell the audience here at the end.
	Well, the main thing is, if you want to know the truth, please read what we have written and watch what we have said on videotape.
	And there's an 800 number that will allow you to do that.
	Simply call 1-888-338-85...
	8-1, and the truth is out there, and we're after it.
	All right, and other than that, of course, if everybody would please do as requested, who has access to a fax machine, that's almost everybody nowadays.
	In fact, Stan Golden, Ted Koppel, and John Holloman, those fax numbers are on the Enterprise Mission website.
	Just in case you didn't catch them, you can always go to a library and get on a computer and go to my website and jump over.
	All right, I have one strong suggestion.
	Very quickly.
	Why don't you call Dr. Malin and invite him to be a guest and defend his policy and position?
	That's a good idea.
	That's a really good idea.
	Would you be interested in a debate with him?
	Absolutely.
	All right, Richard, I'll see what I can do.
	Okay.
	You take care, my friend.
	Until next time.
	Good night America, wherever we are.
	To the Americas, good night.

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