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Jan. 27, 1998 - Art Bell

02:50:44

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Abductee Open Lines. KT Frankovich - Alien Encounter. Hoagland - Mars Mission

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	Those of you who have actually been abducted by alien beings this night, and we have on
	the line with us Mr. Carrot, who can see, well, try and give us an idea if you would,
	how much you can actually see more than the average human being.
	Well, it's, uh, it's no longer effective now.
	It was just for a short time, uh, about my junior year of high school.
	Oh.
	Unfortunately, that wasn't permanent.
	It wasn't permanent?
	No.
	Well, that was one definite medical effect, and during that time, could you see, for example, I've got to have some reference, in a lighted room with a 100-watt light bulb, could you go outside where it's dark, and would you see things as well as if it were lit, say, with a 100-watt bulb where you walked?
	Well, it felt different than that.
	I mean, there was definitely a feeling of things being dark.
	It's not like everything lit up, but... Well, let's say this.
	In a room with no light, except a stray light coming into perhaps even an adjacent room from a street light, something outside, I could read a book.
	You could read a book?
	Yeah.
	Ooh, that is serious.
	Any other serious medical effects of any sort?
	Implantation?
	Any of the normal things one would expect with an abduction?
	I have questions about implantations.
	I'm not sure.
	I've thought perhaps, maybe I have, but I'm not sure on that.
	I have had one other strange, well I've had several, but one of the most interesting ones I think was about my second year of college.
	I had a dream, we'll say in quotes, and one of those that I kind of knew through experience that was a mix of both fact and fiction.
	Kind of like the abduction in Lake County?
	I suppose.
	I don't know much about that, but in this dream I was told that there was a little white man about three foot tall, but he was sort of human.
	I couldn't quite ever focus on him completely.
	Of all things wearing a referee suit.
	Oh, a what?
	A referee suit.
	Like the NFL referees?
	Yeah.
	I don't know why.
	They, whoever, were going to do something to me and I was going to be able to sleep only like two to four hours a day and be able to function quite well on this.
	And has that occurred?
	It did occur.
	And that also was temporary, but it did occur.
	And I had a dream of seeing Greys, like we've sort of shown this, just seeing of Greys doing various things at work and such and they would fall asleep.
	The drawback was that I wouldn't be able to control sometimes when I slept.
	That is remarkable.
	So you would suddenly just be gone?
	Yeah.
	Sometimes in the middle of class or something.
	All right.
	Has all of this now gone away?
	Has it been now years since you've been abducted?
	Oh, it changes.
	There were several stages where there would actually be abductions.
	When I was like four or five, I mentioned it happened a bit.
	And then again around puberty.
	There were a lot of abductions.
	And then they died down.
	Any sexual experiments?
	Yeah, yeah.
	You think you've got some little running around?
	They've told me I have, but I've never seen it.
	And I don't know if I believe them.
	What a violation though.
	Yeah.
	What a violation.
	Well, indeed a frightening story, and I hope you'll keep us updated in case there is more.
	Can I mention one other thing?
	Of course.
	You know, I tried to get in yesterday, because I thought your guest last night brought up an interesting point.
	Kim Morris, yes.
	Yes, right.
	Something that he said that I feel very strongly about.
	A lot of the people that I think have come forward with abduction stories, abduction accounts, are the people who have been most distraught You know, the people who are most adversely affected by anything, of course, are the people who are going to... Well, people who would need help the most, of course.
	Of course, right.
	Makes sense.
	While I have had... I mean, it is a fearful thing.
	There's very uncomfortable issues involved, but the overall feeling is a very healthy one, at least for me.
	Well, more power to you, and please, as I said, keep us informed.
	Sure.
	Take care.
	Can you imagine that?
	Morning Art.
	Hi.
	I actually sent you a fax late last night, wondering if you got it.
	Now, consider that question.
	Consider that what?
	Consider that question.
	I get hundreds of faxes and I don't know what yours was about or who you are, so how could I answer that?
	Yeah, understandably.
	I guess I should have been more specific.
	I'm calling from Canada with regards to a lady that is a U.S.
	citizen.
	Who told me about an incident when she was a young lady with respect to her father being handed a piece of Roswell leftover.
	Roswell wreckage?
	Yes.
	As you know, I am in possession of Roswell wreckage myself and have been for about, what, two years now?
	I didn't know that.
	Oh yes.
	Yes, I have quite a substantial collection of Roswell stuff.
	Alrighty.
	At any rate, you heard about this American citizen who received some.
	Yeah, it was quite some time ago.
	This lady's in her 60s now, belonging to a well-known family.
	For the sake of her privacy, I wouldn't want to mention anything on the air, but she does claim that, as far as she's concerned, this piece of the outer skin still exists within the walls of the family's estate.
	I just felt that I should give you a call and relay it.
	Well, is it the much touted foil that we've all seen that unfolds and cannot be cut nor torched nor broken in any way?
	Yes, sir.
	I think that's what she was referring to.
	Roy, would I like to get my hands on some of that?
	Okay.
	Do you have contact with this person?
	Yes.
	She lives a short distance from me here in Canada.
	I don't want to give any geographics of where this piece supposedly exists, albeit I don't
	100% believe for the simple reason that proof is in itself.
	But nonetheless I would be more than willing to give you whatever information necessary.
	I have the facilities to test something like that, to take it to the larger national labs
	and have them look at it, and I would do exactly that.
	What I was going to suggest through my offer of information is that in order to gain some validity to this woman's story is to necessarily check out her background of her
	American history because if she does belong to the family that she claims she does, her father
	was a nuclear physicist.
	Well, there are people though that run away to Canada for reasons, well, for example,
	during the Vietnam War a lot of people took off to your country.
	Yes, yes, I've met a few.
	We find them in amongst all our little islands here.
	I'm sure you do.
	And across the country itself.
	All right, my friend.
	I appreciate the call.
	Thank you.
	And by all means, I'm trying to have her send me a sample.
	On the other hand, if it is indestructible, if it is one piece, then I have absolutely no idea how they would split it up and get me a little hunk.
	I sure would like some of that aluminum foil, though.
	Uh, correction, not aluminum foil, but not even necessarily aluminum, but something that looked like aluminum that could not be destroyed and would automatically refold into a smooth rendition of itself.
	On our international line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Art, this is Norm from Sacramento.
	I'm calling from Kyoto, Japan.
	Kyoto, Japan?
	Yes, sir.
	I called you last week from Singapore.
	I recall.
	Well, how's everything in... I guess you were living like a king in Singapore, huh?
	Well, not here in Kyoto.
	I know.
	It's quite expensive.
	Yes, it's quite a shock to your system, I'm sure.
	Yes, I left Bangkok, it was 93 degrees.
	I got here, it was freezing.
	Freezing in Kyoto?
	Yes.
	Gee, what a shock to the system.
	Freezing, and it's costing you a fortune.
	Yes, it is.
	I just wanted to say hello, and I miss your show, like always.
	And I just want to put a plug in for Crane Company.
	I listen to my Santine 303 every night.
	Do you really?
	Yes, it's great.
	What do you hear?
	I imagine you're hearing a lot of Chinese.
	Oh, I hear a lot of things that I can't understand, but I also hear radio Amsterdam, radio Paris.
	BBC, of course.
	Voice of America.
	Anything yet from the West Coast of America standard broadcast?
	Yes, I heard from AM 810 yesterday in the morning from when I was near Tokyo.
	Remarkable.
	Absolutely remarkable.
	All right, my friend.
	Thank you.
	And what is the next stop for you?
	Next stop is Los Angeles.
	Los Angeles.
	And that'll be Saturday.
	I imagine you'll get down and kiss the ground after Kyoto.
	Well, it would be great to have some good American food and some good American prices after this.
	Yes, where the dollar is still a dollar.
	Thank you, my friend.
	Take care.
	Take care.
	So there you have it, yes, Kyoto.
	Quite a shock to the system.
	I mean, when I was there, the exchange rate was about 85 yen to the dollar.
	86, I think.
	And I recall getting, I think, two Cokes.
	And two beers at the airport in Tokyo.
	And I believe the bill was $38.
	So, it's a rough way to go.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	You do that to me and let me kill the radio.
	Kill it.
	Yeah, we answer the phone right away.
	We don't scream.
	I know, I know.
	I just, I was in bed.
	This is Jason in San Diego.
	Yes, sir.
	Nice to talk to you.
	We're talking about alien abductions.
	I want to bring up a good name.
	Steve Neal is an artist.
	I don't know if you've ever had him on your show or not.
	What kind of artist?
	Well, he features alien abduction renderings, and he's done, like, famous artwork with, like, you know, like, Ghostbuster movies and alien shows.
	He's, like, a really well-known artist.
	He's got a website called Dreamland FX.
	I thought you'd know him.
	Steve Neal.
	Yeah, I've heard the name.
	Yeah, I think there are people who actually live that way.
	They really do.
	They live roughly in X-Files life.
	Talking him through email and it's interesting the stories that you know
	I say that like these people that really do study this stuff and have actually had these experiences
	It's really an X-Files life black helicopters and people living in their bushes and looking at you know looking at
	me at night Yeah, I think there are people actually live that way. They
	really do they live roughly an X-Files life people visiting them
	Medical experiments performed on them Children running around that are the result of sexual
	experiments Peace.
	Yep.
	The last point I'll say is I know you're on the internet a lot.
	I was on this website called the Mars-Earth Connection.
	Yes.
	I was talking about the re-imaging of Cydonia.
	Oh, yes.
	And they said that the imaging opportunity is going to be, and I'm only quoting Mark Carlotto's paper from his website saying that the Mars Global Surveyor should have an imaging opportunity in early March.
	I believe that's correct now.
	Van Flandren, who is in charge of all of this, is running around saying that as far as he is concerned, the odds are tremendous that what is at Cydonia is in fact not natural.
	And here we have NASA eliminating, saying we're not going off planet with men anymore, we're not going to the moon, we're not going back to Mars.
	They have absolutely stopped all funding.
	Does this make sense to you?
	I haven't heard that, but that's interesting.
	I know, I've got it right here from the Gannett News Service.
	NASA plans to eliminate moon and Mars projects, period.
	Well, you know what?
	Then how about this for a turn?
	Maybe something's going to happen that they're not telling us about.
	Maybe it's already happened.
	I mean like, well, I mean like something smacking us, like maybe a fragment from Hale-Bopp that's still coming, or one of those weird theories that they're not talking about, you know?
	Well, yeah, but that, it would make more sense for us to be going outbound, uh, if that was true, to stop anything like that.
	Uh, not to, uh, shut everything down.
	I think that's very suspicious.
	Yeah, I mean, they're not gonna, if someone's gonna come hurt the Earth, they're not gonna warn us saying, well, you have ten days to live.
	Have fun.
	Uh, no, they wouldn't do that.
	Uh, no question about that.
	They wouldn't do that.
	They would not warn us.
	I've always known that.
	Heck, listen to the, uh, The news of objects that have come close to the planet, we hear about them as they have passed.
	You know, Earth had a close call yesterday.
	Or the day before.
	Always after they have passed.
	The one that gets you, the one that comes straight on, of course, you're not going to see.
	On my abduction line, you are on the air.
	Hello?
	Hello, Earth?
	Yes.
	My name's Pete.
	I'm calling from western New York.
	Hello, Pete.
	How you doing today?
	I'm fine.
	I had an encounter.
	I'm not sure what happened after I had the encounter.
	Well, when did this occur?
	Back roughly 1976.
	76.
	That's a long time ago.
	Yes, sir.
	It was in a place.
	We were up above Marshburg, Pennsylvania.
	I was there with my brother and my cousin, and we had gone in to the back up near Kinzu Dam in that area.
	I don't know the area, but near a dam, yeah.
	Yeah, it's up near, it's a big, it's like a big wildlife, it's a big state park outside Allegheny State Park.
	It's pretty big.
	And, uh, what had happened was, we went hiking back into where the, uh, Forest Rangers area was, and there's a place back there called Cosimo's Rock.
	And, uh, this was on a Sunday night, and it was approximately just before dusk, the sun was just starting to set, and we were sitting there, and, you know, we were Young and dumb but we had a few beers and the reason why I didn't think nothing of anything until over the last few years as I've gotten older, okay I'm 40 now, this happened when I was 16.
	What had happened was we were all sitting there and we had the fire going and we were talking and whatever you do when you're camping out like that and all of a sudden we looked up And it was pretty decent light out and the sun hadn't quite gone down, but this thing, it was like huge.
	It was, it looked like a domino, a giant domino.
	All right.
	I can picture that.
	Okay.
	It was pretty big and it looked like a big domino.
	And, uh, we watched it and we get, we started getting scared.
	We didn't know what it was.
	And as it started to hover over the treetops, we started to run.
	And from where we were to where the main road was is like a good mile and a half.
	Yes.
	And, uh, we started running and the next thing I knew, I was, this is, this is a Sunday.
	I was standing in my grandmother's kitchen.
	Okay.
	This is hard.
	I think you've got your radio on.
	That makes it really hard.
	You turn off your radio.
	Turn it off all the way.
	Okay.
	I was standing, this is like on a Thursday, I'm standing in my grandmother's kitchen and I started to realize she's standing there talking to me and going, you've been a zombie for four days.
	What in the world is wrong with you?
	In other words, you were actually physically present, but catatonic.
	Yeah, I wasn't, I was, yeah, I wasn't, I don't remember anything from the time we started running.
	Until then.
	Kind of like the Wizard of Oz where, uh...
	Well, I don't know about the Wizard of Oz.
	Well, Dorothy was lying on a bed catatonic after hitting her head for days.
	And virtually was not there.
	It was somewhere else, remember?
	Yeah, okay.
	So, anyhow, what had happened was, we're standing there and my grandmother's going off.
	I mean, you've been walking around this house for three days.
	There you are.
	You're not talking to nobody.
	What's going on with you?
	Da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
	And I was like, well, you know, she goes, you come home the other night at six in the morning.
	You left your brother and your cousin somewhere up there.
	They couldn't find you.
	Uh, she goes, you come home covered.
	She said I was covering like a silicone.
	From what my uncle told me, it was like a silicone oil.
	Ooh.
	Yeah.
	It's like being slimed.
	Yeah it was something like that I guess.
	I don't remember any of that because I wasn't remembering anything.
	I just know that she said she had stripped me down, shot me down.
	Now the weird thing about it was a couple days later I started to get a little pain in my chest.
	I've got, and I've still got to this day, this is the first time I've ever told anybody this story.
	I told my wife a little bit about it because I really believe that things are going to happen here with these sightings that they've been having over the years.
	Right now we don't have a lot of time here.
	You had a pain in your chest.
	Okay, I had a pain in my chest.
	So when I looked at it in the mirror, To this day, I still have it there.
	It looks like a, almost like a pellet-sized BB.
	But it's not a BB.
	No, I understand.
	It's an implant, obviously.
	Right.
	And when I talked to my brother about this, nowadays, he said the night we were running out of the woods and we saw the object coming down, he said they couldn't find me for two hours.
	They don't know where I was.
	They said they found me 30 miles up the road.
	Standing on the side of the road with all this stuff on me.
	This is a Travis Walton-like story.
	Uh, the alien Golden Bebe.
	Alright, listen, hold, uh, as a matter of fact, I can't hold you.
	Uh, can you call me back a little later?
	I'm giving you special dispensation, alright?
	To Florida, and an incident that occurred in May of 1992 that has never been told, never been told, on the radio before.
	It's called the Lime Grove Encounter in South Dade, Florida.
	And here is Katie.
	I guess we can call her Katie.
	Is it okay to call you Katie?
	Sure.
	Sounds good to me.
	Katie, welcome to the program.
	I'm so glad that you were able to get up in the middle of the night there to join us.
	Thank you.
	Let's begin here.
	You told this story to Linda Malthow on Dreamland on Sunday, but you have never publicly told this story before.
	Why?
	No, I released it verbally through you first.
	At the same time, it's also coming out in print in a magazine called Unknown Magazine, which should be on the shelves this week.
	There were a couple of reasons I have not released this.
	First of all, this occurred in May of 1992.
	Right.
	In August of 1992, South Dade was devastated by Hurricane Andrew.
	I recall.
	Yes, and I was in that devastation.
	I lived through that hurricane.
	So there was a time period which I had to gather my life together and get resettled, and that was one point.
	The other point is that I had been in the film industry.
	My expertise was wildlife.
	I have worked with very big names and I have very good credentials behind me.
	I had never delved into the subject of UFOs or aliens.
	I really knew very little about them when I had these encounters.
	Yeah, you hadn't seen a lot of programs, read a lot of books, that sort of thing?
	No.
	I mean, growing up I watched The Twilight Zone and Star Trek and whatever, but... Normal exposure.
	Right, right.
	I had never really delved into the subject.
	I had heard of the famous Betty and Barney... Barney Hill?
	Barney Hill story, yes.
	I remember when that broke.
	But other than that, I really...
	I did not have much knowledge about this subject.
	Alright, then in your own words, when and how did it begin?
	It began very unexpectedly.
	I lived in an apartment complex right on the Lime Grove.
	Now in this grove, the huge electrical cables running all the way down to the Florida Keys ran for miles and miles and miles.
	And this grove also faced the back of Metro Zoo.
	It's right near Country Walk off 152nd Street.
	Okay.
	I had spotted this apartment because it was fairly isolated and I wanted to move back there.
	I had mentioned it to several of my neighbors.
	And each time I did, I was always warned, don't go in the grove.
	Strange things happen there.
	Well, I didn't really give that much thought.
	And then, quite unexpectedly, the apartment opened up and I moved back there.
	And I noticed the day that I moved in, scrawled on the front door facing the grove, was an inscription which read, May God Protect Us.
	I didn't give that much thought.
	I just thought, well, perhaps somebody religious was living back here.
	Sure.
	Four large dogs.
	All trained attack dogs.
	I had trained each one of them.
	And I used to run them through the grove daily.
	I never saw anyone in the grove besides myself.
	It was a deserted grove.
	They grew lime there?
	Limes.
	They were lime trees.
	Now, lime trees don't grow to be very big, especially when they're not cared for.
	Yeah, they're bushy, I think, but not big.
	Right, and when they start dying back, they get a very brittle, very skeletal look.
	Sure.
	And not many leaves at all.
	So kind of an eerie atmosphere, really.
	Absolutely.
	It was very isolated, very secluded.
	The grass grew to about two or three feet high.
	The dogs loved it.
	They could run for miles and miles.
	And it was wonderful.
	It was absolutely wonderful.
	On this particular afternoon, I had already walked two of them.
	It was getting towards sunset.
	And I went back and got the two most aggressive ones of the pack.
	They were both males.
	Both weighing approximately 100 pounds.
	Put them both on leashes.
	Walked into the grove and I walked through a clearing so that I could get to the other side of the grove, which meant that I was bordered by woods from the back property of Metro Zoo and this very thick grove, which nobody could see us in.
	Yes, along with 200 pounds of dog.
	200 pounds of aggressive attack dogs who did not hesitate to bark at the slightest noise.
	Sure.
	Very protective.
	Very territorial.
	Right.
	Now, I want to stress before I go any further, because my reactions to this may seem very different than what you would expect from an average person.
	And I want to reiterate that I spent many years in the field Observing wild and dangerous animals up close, right in there with the cinematographers, so observing animal behavior comes very naturally to me.
	It's my instinct.
	Even if I fear the animal, I will instinctively want to watch the behavior.
	As I walked through this clearing, I turned left, which We would have been heading towards Southwest 152nd Street, and that was probably a mile down the grove from where we were.
	I heard what sounded like someone chopping huge branches with an axe, you know, breaking them.
	Yes.
	And it sounded as if it were right on top of me.
	Which was very startling because, as I said, I never saw anyone in the grove.
	I stopped, and I realized that neither one of the dogs were behaving correctly.
	What were they doing?
	They totally ignored the sound.
	There was no indication that anyone was around.
	I was very quiet.
	They stood quietly.
	And again, we heard this, or I heard this.
	Sure, makes sense.
	And it was right on top of me so I turned and I looked through three rows of trees.
	Now if you've ever been in a grove, there's a row of trees and there's about ten feet
	where they can mow the grass and then there's another row of trees.
	So you can figure I was standing approximately thirty feet away.
	The trees were dying and so there was not much foliage to look through.
	Bye.
	When I turned and looked directly in front of me, three rows over, I got the shock of my life.
	I had never, ever seen anything like this.
	The dogs also had turned with me.
	And their reaction, even though they were looking directly at it, was to lie down on
	the ground, put their heads down and go to sleep.
	And go to sleep?
	Go to sleep.
	What were you seeing?
	I saw, when I initially looked at this, it was very shocking.
	So you have to remember, half of my brain is working logically and the other half is
	saying this is someone playing a Halloween trick.
	Suspending belief sort of?
	Right, I had nothing to identify this with.
	Nothing.
	This being stood, I would say about 4 feet 9 inches tall.
	I'm 5'3 and it was smaller than I am.
	The thing that initially struck me was the head because I was looking at that level.
	The head was an odd shape.
	The circumference area around the temporal and the occipital lobe was much larger.
	In proportion to what ours is.
	Indicating a larger brain?
	Cranial area.
	It came down almost into a nondescriptive chin.
	The eyes were the huge black, brown, almond eyes.
	No eyelids, no whites, no pupils that I could distinguish at all.
	The skin tone was what I would call a grayish color with just a pinkish hue to it.
	Um, it wasn't really a nose, it was more like two tiny nostrils
	and beneath that was a very small mouth. Uh, the lips were not well defined at all.
	I would say the mouth was probably half the size of ours.
	This sounds like the typical gray.
	For example, that scene by Whitley Strieber and others.
	I'm sure, I would hope now, after all this time, you've seen photographs of that which Whitley Strieber says he saw.
	And that's almost what you're describing.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	It looked very much like this.
	Standing there.
	And coming down the torso, because that was my natural instinct to look at the entire torso.
	Of course.
	Coming down, the upper part of the torso did not match the bottom part.
	It looked like two different beings were attached.
	It was that obviously different.
	The upper part, there was no muscle tone in the arms.
	They were long and looked thin.
	Almost initiated looking.
	Came down to a hand which had six digits on it.
	Six fingers.
	Six digits.
	Would you call them fingers or?
	Fingers, yes.
	Well, I would say five fingers and one thumb.
	The hand looked very much like the hand of an orangutan.
	Do you know how the wrong fingers are?
	Of course, yes.
	Of course.
	Okay, what fascinated me immediately was In your apes and your primates, the thumb is located in a different position than the human.
	Yes.
	This thumb, however, was in exactly the correct position as the human hand, even though there were a total of six digits on this hand.
	The thumb was placed exactly where ours is.
	An obvious question is, did you see the alien autopsy?
	Yes, I did.
	I saw it afterward.
	A couple of years afterward, and when I get through describing this to you, I will take you back to that because that was quite a shock for me also.
	I'm sure it was.
	Going back to what the body looked like, the abdomen was small.
	In other words, the shoulders were not big or broad shoulders.
	It was sort of an emaciated looking body, a very small kind of pot belly.
	But then once you came down into the legs, an amazing thing happened.
	The thighs and the calves were overly developed.
	These were the legs of an athlete.
	I mean the muscles were bulging.
	Came down into the foot.
	Now the foot looked too small to be attached to those legs.
	And yet the upper part of the torso didn't match those legs at all.
	Because the upper part of the torso was, like I said, very fragile looking, very emaciated looking.
	Right.
	I think I can imagine all this.
	It was as shocked as I was.
	We had a stare down for quite a while.
	Neither one of us moved.
	And during this time, what was going through my mind was, One part would say you're looking at a strange creature and the other half of my mind would say, no, this is someone playing a Halloween joke on me.
	It went back and forth, back and forth, because I had nothing to identify this with.
	Was the creature simply standing there with sort of a shocked look on its face?
	I can't say that there was an expression.
	It was not blinking.
	It was just staring directly at me, and I was staring directly back at him.
	I'm sure I wasn't blinking either.
	But there were no eyelids.
	It was a straight stare.
	And I would like to say one other thing here, too, because I did have two encounters.
	On this first encounter, the eyes looked very intimidating to me.
	However, when I had the second encounter, and I had gotten over my fears of being close to them, I saw this face in a totally different perspective, and it hit me on the second encounter.
	My God, this face is beautiful!
	But, on this first encounter, where I had never seen anything like this, the eyes looked intimidating because, as I said, they were not blinking.
	Uh, it looked like a cold, dead stare to me.
	You said your dogs just lay down, put their little heads in their paws.
	Found asleep.
	Wonderful, wonderful attack dogs.
	Found asleep.
	Was there any effect that you could document on you?
	In other words, that was an obvious calming, tranquilizing kind of effect on your dogs.
	What about you?
	No, not on me.
	I was too busy trying to identify what I was looking at.
	It was very shocking.
	Very shocking.
	After we stared at each other for quite a while, and for some reason when I looked at this, I felt what I was looking at was a male.
	So I'm going to refer to it as he rather than it.
	No obvious... No, nothing to indicate.
	He did have clothes on though.
	Okay.
	Very strange looking clothes.
	If you think of a tight t-shirt, a tight fitting t-shirt, but not made out of cloth.
	It was clingy, like you think of these aerobic pants that people wear, but not cloth.
	It seemed to be a metallic, metal substance.
	I don't know how to describe this.
	Yes.
	The top shirt, like I said, was a t-shirt kind of thing.
	No buttons, no zippers, nothing.
	That was a white, silvery look.
	like a wetsuit? Yes, yes. The top shirt, like I said, it was a t-shirt kind of thing. No
	buttons, no zippers, nothing. That was a white, silvery look. The bottom, if you think of
	spandex, men's spandex, Bermuda shorts.
	Sure.
	They were just cling.
	Sure.
	And there was nothing in the shape of the body obviously identifying this as a male.
	No.
	It was just a sense you had.
	Right.
	It was just looking at this face and staring at it.
	It struck me that I was looking at a male.
	A male of some kind.
	All right, Katie, hold on.
	It is Katie Frankovich in Florida.
	And you're hearing about an encounter Uh, quite well documented as a matter of fact, and never told before.
	4'9", obviously a grey.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Uh, what appeared to be a male creature about 4'9", inches tall.
	A typical gray in the middle of a lime grove, her two 100-pound attack dogs lie down, put their heads down on their paws, and sort of go into a dog catatonic state.
	And so that's where we'll pick it up.
	And here you are staring at this incredible creature, Katie, observing it as you would, I guess, a wild animal.
	Yes.
	What did it do?
	I just wanted to add one more thing to the description.
	One thing that fascinated me was the skin.
	It appeared to be non-porous.
	It had almost a plastic look to it.
	If you think of the underbelly of a snake, Not scales, but it has a very shiny look to it.
	I haven't turned too many of them over.
	The belly has a very shiny look to it.
	It's a non-porous skin.
	This skin had that kind of look to it.
	It was not a porous skin like ours at all.
	I did also want to add that it did have a type of shoe on.
	Again, it was made out of this metallic substance.
	It was black, there were no buckles, there were no laces.
	In fact, I wondered how it got these on.
	The whole thing sounds artificial.
	In what sense?
	Well, you said non-porous skin, not like our skin.
	Artificial in the sense that, as in a manufactured or constructed Okay, I can add a comment to that.
	I can understand that comment.
	If you look at a snake, an indigo snake, they also look manufactured because they are so shiny, so smooth.
	It doesn't look real.
	And if you stop yourself, Well, you're trying to touch one.
	Part of the hesitancy is that, is it real?
	And if it wiggles, I'm going to scream.
	And it's because it has that manufactured look to it.
	Exactly.
	And yes, this creature does have that type of look to it, on top of which there is nothing that we have to identify this with mentally.
	I mean, if I had seen a snake, even though I had not seen that species before, I could have said, oh, this is a snipe.
	No point of reference.
	Right.
	No point of reference whatsoever.
	So this is what you're fighting mentally.
	The whole time you're in the presence of them.
	You are fighting something that you have never, ever seen.
	You cannot identify and you have no point of reference.
	When we stared at each other for several minutes, he moved his head slightly.
	Not his body, just his head, leaned it over so that it was behind the tree.
	I could see his full body, just not the head.
	Understood.
	At that time, when he did that, something caught my eye, my peripheral vision eyes, I caught the glimpse of something moving.
	And I looked to the tree next to him.
	In that tree, there was the strangest creature I have ever seen in all my life.
	Now, the creature's head was not turned towards me.
	The creature's head was away from me in the opposite direction, so I could not see it.
	I could only see the body.
	Right.
	My first thought, and this is when I really became aware of thinking thoughts, my first thought was, that's a possum.
	And then I stood there staring at it and I said, no, this is not a possum.
	This fur is too long.
	This fur is too fine.
	And this fur is way too thick.
	And the body is all wrong for a possum.
	It was a very full body.
	It moved slowly.
	As you would think of a sloth moving.
	A very slow movement.
	Yes.
	Hanging in the tree.
	My second thought was, oh, then this must be a raccoon.
	And that was followed with my thinking it out.
	No, this is not a raccoon.
	This is the wrong color of a raccoon.
	This is the wrong fur of a raccoon.
	And this is the wrong body shape.
	Besides, raccoons don't move like this.
	About the same size, though, as one?
	Um, I would say the abdomen area was much larger, and it was longer.
	It was, uh, it appeared to be kind of rolled, hanging on.
	It appeared like it was hanging on to the branch, and in doing that, the body was kind of rolled.
	Do you understand what I'm saying?
	I certainly do.
	Um, like it was hanging, but it was moving.
	It was moving.
	It was a definite blue-gray, um, almost a charcoal gray in color.
	I would say the fur was a good three inches to four inches long.
	Long hair.
	Very shiny looking fur.
	Very healthy looking.
	Very, very thick.
	Very thick.
	I can remember standing there and thinking, move your head, move your head so I can see you.
	I wanted to see the head very badly.
	Right.
	I didn't see any tail and I could not see any paws.
	I was looking for paws.
	I could not see them because the body blocked it.
	At that, while I was standing there observing this, something very strange happened next and I want to reiterate to everybody that it is my instinct to stand there and observe It would not have been my reaction to leave under any circumstances.
	It would have been mine.
	Get out of there quick.
	Well, it wasn't mine.
	I had no thought of it, no conscious thought whatsoever.
	The next thing I found myself doing was tugging both leashes.
	The dog stood up immediately and I turned and kept on walking as if nothing had occurred.
	Now when I took about 15 steps away from this fight, I stopped dead cold in my tracks.
	In fact, I said out loud, I hope you can swear on this program, I said, what the hell was I looking at?
	You can say that.
	Thank you.
	At that point, I tugged both leashes and I ran back as fast as I could with the dogs.
	And they were very excited because they were running.
	Right.
	It was my intention when I got back there to sit down on the ground.
	Because if you're familiar with observing wildlife, this is an action which is not aggressive.
	Right, you want to be still and... Right, and if you think of this from the alien's point of view, I had to look very intimidating.
	Here I had these two huge black dogs with me.
	I'm bigger than it is, and I want to come back for more.
	So I rationalized very quickly.
	The best thing to do was to go back, if he was there, sit down on the ground.
	All right.
	And the dogs?
	That was what I was going to do.
	I figured they would lay down with me.
	Right.
	When I got back to the site, he wasn't there.
	Gone.
	Gone.
	Now, I thought to myself, no, it couldn't have gone very far.
	And I watched the dog.
	Because I knew they would be the key here to where it was.
	At this point, you could have set them loose.
	Yes, but I didn't want to.
	I wanted them with me.
	I'm no fool.
	Right.
	Even though they're sleeping attack dogs, I'm still no fool.
	They both sat down immediately.
	Laid down on the ground.
	Put their heads down.
	I knew.
	I knew I was on top of it.
	I knew it was right there.
	Right there somewhere.
	I was just very quiet.
	And suddenly it stepped out from behind a tree.
	Now, the creature was also gone, but this time when this being stepped out from behind the tree, he had a bag in his arms, if you think of like a bolap bag.
	Sure.
	It was made out of this metallic substance, this white, shiny metal substance.
	It had a tie on it like a rope.
	I knew this creature was in it because it was big.
	It was the size of what the creature would have been and he was holding it.
	I had a very clear shot of those six digits holding that bag.
	Very, very good visual point of view.
	He began to run.
	And it was the most incredible thing I ever... Think of an Olympic athlete runner.
	The muscles actually bulged.
	When he began to run, he ran like a gazelle.
	Do you know what a Thompson gazelle is?
	I do.
	They're in Africa, and when they run, they actually touch the ground and sprint up in the air several feet and come down.
	Almost like they're defying gravity.
	Exactly.
	That was another thing that I had noticed when there was movement.
	I noticed when he moved his arms, when we move our arms, we push our arms through the air.
	That's right.
	When he moved, it was more as if he was gliding through the air.
	Now, you can get a better handle on this if you think of pictures that you've seen of the astronauts in the spaceships where they're floating around.
	Sure.
	They're not really moving their bodies through the air.
	They're floating them through the air.
	That's right.
	And that's how this creature appeared to move, even though he had more control over his body than what you would think our astronauts in space do.
	As I said, he began to run, and when he would touch the ground and sprint up, I would say it was a good four feet up in the air he would go very easily.
	Come down, just touch the ground, and right back up again.
	I ran parallel to him.
	In other words, he's running down this row, this grassy area between the rows of trees, and I'm running parallel to him.
	I never took my eyes off of him.
	It's a good thing there were no telephone poles in the Grove because I would have crashed right into them.
	I could not take my eyes off of him.
	I had never seen anything like this in my life.
	Naturally, no camera.
	No camera.
	The rope that tied to this bag was, at one point, came over his shoulder.
	You know, as if you were running, it would fly over your shoulder.
	Certainly.
	He could have easily outrun the art.
	Easily.
	But he stayed parallel to me.
	We ran neck to neck, and I would say for a distance of a good, well, if you figure six city blocks.
	I mean, we ran neck to neck.
	At one point, there was an area, I would say, of about 50 yards, 25 to 50 yards, where the lime trees These dying lime trees had fallen over on the ground.
	Yes.
	There was absolutely nothing obstructing my view of him.
	And we ran that distance neck-to-neck.
	My eyes glued to him the whole time.
	At the end of this clearing, the lime trees began again.
	And in Florida, we have these vines that grow in the wild.
	And they will quickly cover a tree, an entire tree, And then reach over and start covering other trees and plants.
	There was an area of these vines growing and they had grown so thick that it actually formed like a tunnel between two rows of these dying trees.
	Right.
	Now I could see this tunnel coming up in my peripheral vision as we were running.
	He darted right into that.
	The moment he reached that tunnel, I literally ran into a wall of stench.
	The smell was a combination of two smells.
	It was a combination of sulfuric acid and formaldehyde, and it was so pungent that it did burn the inside lining of my nose.
	It was like someone broke open smelling salts and put them underneath my nose suddenly.
	I mean, it was unbelievable.
	The moment I hit that wall of stench, it literally knocked me to my senses.
	I would think your dogs would have reacted to that, too.
	I don't have any memory of that.
	I know that they were running right with me.
	I wasn't looking at how they were reacting.
	When I hit that smell, You have to remember, I was aimed and going right for that tunnel right behind him.
	I mean, I was going to run with this creature.
	When I hit that wall, it knocked me to my senses.
	It literally knocked me and I said, my God, what am I doing?
	I knew, but I can't tell you how I knew, but I did know there were others like him very near.
	I knew I was outnumbered.
	I also realized that I was in a grove.
	I was in a very isolated area.
	It was just starting to get dark.
	No one could have heard me.
	No one knew where I was and it was like, you idiot, what are you doing?
	It was that moment of truth.
	I literally turned while I was running and ran.
	The opposite direction.
	I must have run a good mile and a half through that grove.
	Now you're cooking.
	That's what I would have done.
	Right, I'm cooking, boy.
	I'm running as fast as I can.
	I ran all the way up to the road, crawled underneath the barbed wire fence, and then walked, I would say, about a half a mile to my apartment.
	Now, you know, people often say they would love to have an encounter like this and It's true, but you fight a lot of things, right?
	At this point, I was fighting myself.
	I knew what I had seen.
	I had had a lot of time to observe this creature.
	There were a lot of different things working in this encounter.
	The smell, the stench, the fact that there were two creatures, not one.
	And yet you reported this at that time to nobody?
	No, I walked in, I can remember, I walked in this apartment, my heart is racing, my adrenaline is pumping, and it's like, who are you gonna call?
	The Ghostbusters?
	Right.
	You can't call the police.
	You can't very well pick up the phone and say, hi mom, I gotta tell you something.
	No.
	And yet it is the most phenomenal thing that has just happened.
	I paced around the apartment for a few minutes and I I have a friend that I had met several years before.
	Her name is Linda.
	And I remember that at one point, Linda had told me, this was many years ago, she and her husband had been driving late one night in a region not too far from Gulf Breeze.
	They spotted a UFO, which came directly over their car.
	Their car stopped.
	They were paralyzed with fear.
	A beam of light came down and then there is something like three and a half to four hours missing time.
	I remembered that she had told me this in confidence and at the time I was fascinated with it but it never went any further than that so she was the person I called.
	Exactly.
	I knew I was in shock.
	I knew what I had seen was accurate.
	I sure didn't want to blow years of credibility as a wildlife writer.
	No, I called this individual, and we were on the phone for quite a while that night going over and over, and she had no problem whatsoever believing it.
	Have you had any artist do a rendition?
	I mean, you are so descriptive about the creature, both the creatures, that it seems to me you could sit down with an artist and come up with a rendition of what you saw.
	There are two sketches that I did in Unknown Magazine, this magazine that is coming out
	hitting the stands.
	I did them both.
	One is of this being alone as I looked at him right away and the second one is the being
	with the creatures.
	I accidentally forgot to tell you one other thing that occurred while we were running
	down this grove together.
	While we were running I distinctively heard over and over and over again through telepathy
	and it was said as one word, biente, biente.
	Now I am not Spanish.
	I am NOT Italian.
	I don't speak any other languages, but English I understood that that word meant Welcome come hither.
	It was like a come on Like I said, I can't I can't verify what language that is, Art.
	I don't speak any other languages besides the English language.
	Well, we've got lots of people out there who do.
	I want to hold you over for a few moments after the top of the hour and sort of finish this up.
	So, stay right where you are.
	Okay.
	All right.
	K.T.
	Frankovich from Florida.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	I went into sort of a doggy catatonic state.
	She watched this creature with six digits on each hand and then she got up and actually ran with it until she reached a kind of covering and ran into a completely unbearable smell.
	That's not a fair description for those of you who have just joined the show.
	It's inadequate.
	She described this creature in great detail.
	In fact, the audience is reacting very favorably.
	Aren't fascinating, your guest is reacting positively as I monitor with a voice stress indicator.
	I detect some modest anxiety, appropriate, which may or may not be recognized overtly.
	And just generally as I go through the faxes, People believe you, Katie.
	They absolutely believe you.
	It's the way you tell the story.
	It's the detail you're giving.
	It's an astounding story.
	Thank you.
	It is true.
	There's nothing made up in it at all.
	There was a second encounter.
	I don't know whether you want to get into this or not.
	Briefly, if you would.
	You had asked my reaction directly afterward.
	Very briefly, the next morning I was up at the crack of dawn and I had all four of my dogs in that grove.
	Went back to the site and yes, the branches had been broken off the tree.
	They were not on the ground.
	I traced the whole journey.
	But I could not enter that tunnel.
	And the smell was gone.
	Everything was gone.
	Shortly afterwards, and I can't tell you exactly how long it was, I would say it was within a period of a couple of weeks.
	Could have even been closer.
	I was sitting one night on the couch.
	It was between 11 o'clock and 11.30 because I had the news on.
	I had the television sound turned down.
	The windows open.
	The couch was about ten feet away from the front window.
	The only light on in the apartment was the television and I was on the phone talking to my friend Linda.
	Outside of my front window, which as I said was open, there was a lamp on the lawn.
	It stood up about four feet tall and it just lit up the front area.
	I was talking to Linda on the phone and I looked up and a very strange thing began happening.
	It appeared to be like a mint green dew or a cloud filling the apartment up towards the ceiling.
	And was coming down the walls.
	And as I was talking to Linda, I said to her, you're not going to believe what's going on here, but I'm going to describe it to you, what I'm seeing.
	Um, it, it got fairly thick.
	I mean, it was definitely mint green and it was hovering across the entire ceiling of the living room.
	Uh, the four dogs were asleep on the floor, four wonderful attack dogs.
	And out of the corner of my eye I caught movement over at the window and I looked over and now I could only see from the chest up because this is not a floor length window, this is a regular window.
	Right.
	Obviously standing on the porch was one of them, leaned over and looked in the window
	and then step so it was centered right smack in the window.
	There were actually two of them.
	One was smaller.
	For some reason I identified the one looking in the window as being female.
	Her features or characteristics were the same as the one I had seen in the grove but it
	was very obvious from her face that she was a female.
	The one behind her came up to probably where our shoulder blades would be in our back.
	I assumed that this was an adolescent and for some reason I perceived this adolescent
	as being male.
	Uh, he...
	He stood behind her.
	He was very timid.
	Very timid.
	Once in a while he would peek out from behind her and look at her.
	Now remember, I am describing all of this to Linda on the phone as it is occurring.
	Right.
	I'm trying to keep my voice down so I don't scare them.
	Linda was scared out of her wits.
	She wanted to call the police.
	I said, no, no, please don't move.
	I want this.
	I want to see them.
	The female standing at the window, She stood there staring at me curiously.
	In fact, she moved her head back and forth a few times.
	It was priceless.
	It was one of the most precious impressions I have in my memory.
	At one point, she took her hand and placed it on the screen facing me.
	And there were the six digits.
	Six digits again.
	With her fingers spread.
	Now, when she did this, I said to Linda, She's got her hand on the screen, the six digits are up there.
	And I said, I don't want to scare her.
	So I'm going to raise my right hand slowly in the air, like I'm extending it to touch hers.
	And this I did, and I held it there.
	And she tilted her head, the one at the window, and looked at me very curiously.
	I knew instinctively she knew what I was doing.
	The little one behind her peeked around her, looked over at me.
	I would say we held that position for maybe 20, 30 seconds.
	Is there any question in your mind that you had an encounter?
	No, none at all.
	In fact, the government agents did me a great favor when they tried to interrogate me because it reinforced everything.
	So you had government agents that came and visited you.
	Absolutely.
	Presented you with a card with the White House.
	Yeah, it was a regular Let me just finish this second encounter very quickly before I go into the government agent, because there's something here that has always fascinated me about this.
	While we had our hands up in the air, I perceived, through telepathy, very strong, over and over again, the words, Protector of Life.
	It was in English, Protector of Life.
	And I understood that this was How they regarded me.
	This was said over and over again.
	I understood that this would be like my name.
	You call me KT, but this would be the way they identified me.
	I understand.
	I put my hand down and so did she and after several moments I observed her turn and not walk away.
	It was that hop.
	I could see her hop.
	Right.
	With the little one.
	And I said to Linda at this point, Linda, they've just left.
	Hold on.
	I'm going outside.
	I want to see if they're still there.
	And of course, Linda is having a heart attack.
	Oh my God, I can't stand this.
	But I did go outside and there was nothing.
	They were gone.
	Not even any tracks?
	No.
	Well, you couldn't see it was at night.
	All right.
	We're going to have to hurry here.
	How in the world, who came to see you and how did they know to come and see you?
	They didn't come to the apartment.
	What happened within, I would say, two days, I was in that grove again, and I looked up and saw this black government car coming towards me, which startled me because I wasn't used to seeing people in the grove.
	There were two men in the car.
	They were dressed in business suits.
	They pulled up right next to me.
	Of course, I had the dogs with me, and they Roll down the window and the first question out of their mouth was, have you ever seen anything strange in this grove?
	And I said, I played dumb.
	I said, what do you mean strange?
	I saw a wild goose here one time.
	And they said, no, you wouldn't know what we meant.
	You would absolutely know what we meant.
	Now they tried very hard to get me to tell them if I had ever seen anything.
	They asked my name.
	They took my phone number.
	They gave me their business card, and on this card it had a telephone number.
	They put their beeper number on it and instructed me to call them any time of day or night.
	And in the right hand corner of this card was a raised emblem of the White House, but that emblem was in gold.
	In other words, the White House was gold.
	Um, there wasn't anything on the card to indicate which branch of government they were from, but they did introduce themselves as government agents.
	Well, it'd be a gold embossing, so I'm not surprised the White House would be shown on a card like that to be gold.
	They were, every time I went in the Grove, they would drive up and greet me.
	My feeling was that I don't think they actually saw what occurred.
	I do think they knew Something was there.
	Something had happened?
	Yes, I think that they figured I had probably seen something.
	Obvious question, do you still have that card?
	I had it.
	In fact, I had showed it to Linda and her husband Bob, who was a retired policeman.
	I had even called the number to find out what would happen.
	The telephone was answered with just yes.
	Um, I had it, I was saving it, and along came Andrew in August of 1992, and I lost everything but the clothes and my back arch.
	Hurricane Andrew wiped you out.
	Yes.
	Alright, um, I asked you this earlier, let's return to this now.
	The alien autopsy, the autopsy of these creatures with six digits and, uh, very much like you described, uh, the torsos, even the, uh, the thighs, the legs, um, the head, Is the creature you saw the creature we saw in the alien autopsy?
	Um, I remember seeing that film.
	That film happened a couple of years after this incident.
	In fact, I saw it up here in the Ocala National Forest after I had moved from Andrew.
	That was the first time it was aired on television.
	I sat there and watched that film with my mouth open.
	I was, I could not get my eyes off the picture.
	Especially when I saw the legs.
	The only thing that I would say was different was I had remembered the arms as being more without muscle tone, more initiated looking.
	Right.
	But something occurred to me.
	You know, this was a dead body that I was looking at in the film.
	Yes.
	When you think of a dead body, rig mortis sets in.
	And because you don't know the chemical makeup behind this body, you don't know whether there was bloating in that body or not.
	So, that's a question that remains unanswered in my mind.
	Why were the arms different?
	That could be a possible answer.
	I don't know.
	Well, your powers of observation are very acute indeed.
	Absolutely.
	Your story seems probably one of the most detailed I've ever heard.
	What I would love to have from you, if it's possible, is perhaps some of the drawings
	that you have done, some artist rendition of all of this, that we might get up on the
	website for everybody to see.
	Would that be possible?
	Absolutely.
	You can have the two pictures that are coming out in the magazine.
	And afterward, there was a symbol that I began drawing.
	In fact, I have one painted right outside my door now.
	It's a wheel.
	It looks very much like the peace sign, but it's made of leaves, and all the leaves are
	attached, joined to one another in the center.
	It's done in blue and green.
	And for some reason, I started painting this after these encounters, and I have never lived
	in a home without this outside my door.
	Hmm.
	I would be glad to even forward that to you.
	Absolutely remarkable, Katie.
	Do you have my address?
	Um, no I don't.
	Do you have a pencil?
	Yes I do.
	Alright, are you ready?
	I'm ready.
	It is Art Bell of course.
	Uh, post office box.
	Right.
	4755.
	4755.
	In a little town called Pahrump, that's P as in Paul, A-H.
	A-H.
	R-U-M-P.
	R-U-M-P.
	Nevada.
	Right.
	I would like to just add one more thing Art, because I'm very interested in this too.
	I do have an email address, and I would like to give it to your listeners.
	I am very interested, particularly if others have had encounters like this.
	Many, many have.
	You can email me at K, the letter K, F-R-N-K-O-V-I-C-H at AOL.com.
	That's K-F-R-N-K-O-V-I-C-H at AOL.com.
	K-F-R-N-K-O-V-I-C-H at AOL.com.
	Well, you'll get lots of email, that's for sure.
	I hope so.
	And I'll look forward to getting the drawings, which will go up on the website right away.
	Katie, you have been a real joy to have on.
	I've never had anybody with such a wonderfully descriptive way about her.
	Well, thank you very much, and I just wanted to say, Art, I'm very glad that I was able to break the story on your show.
	uh... done in a very professional manner because it is very true and very real indeed
	katie thank you so very much thank you goodnight that's uh... katie frankovich katie
	frankovich and it is
	the most uh...
	a detailed a careful description of an encounter with somebody
	something from elsewhere that i think i've ever heard uh...
	That along with Travis Walton and Betty and Barney Hill and others of the same ilk.
	Absolutely remarkable.
	Plans to eliminate all manned missions to the Moon and Mars.
	This is a remarkable development.
	I was sent this Gannett News Service story by Richard C. Hoagland, who we now have on the telephone from New Mexico, from KLB country in New Mexico, Albuquerque.
	And I cannot fathom, in my wildest dreams, how this could possibly be.
	Now, recall, That Tom Van Flanderen, who has always been, what's the right word, I think very cautious in his pronouncements regarding Cydonia, who is responsible for much of the imaging that's coming up, is preparing America, preparing the world for the fact that the things at Cydonia,
	Artifacts at Cydonia, a phase on Mars, is not a natural item.
	It seems like the very last time you would announce that you are not going to send men to Mars, and yet, in this Gannett News Service article, it's Very clear that we have decided suddenly at exactly this very strange time in our history to not leave the planet.
	It's almost as though we have been prohibited from leaving our planet's atmosphere, or at least certainly touching down on any other body, the moon, Mars, whatever.
	uh... some sort of uh... prime directive at at work i i don't know in reverse
	perhaps here is an extreme science award winner
	a one-time advisor to walter chronk rights and that's a
	Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard, welcome to the program here at the bottom of the hour.
	Good morning.
	We have, what, 30 seconds?
	Yeah, not a lot of time.
	But I mean, first of all, just confirm for me this Gannett News Service article.
	Why in the world would we suddenly Not leave planet Earth.
	Well, look at the date, all right?
	This was Neskey's letter, which he's the acting associate administrator for spaceflight for NASA headquarters.
	Right.
	He sent this letter dated January 9th.
	What happened January 9th?
	I don't know.
	And I'll give you a clue.
	It has nothing to do with Monica, all right?
	All right.
	That's the date that Prospector arrived at the moon.
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, yes.
	Well, there's so much to get into.
	Obviously, all we can do you in the next minute is just to tease.
	But, you know, we are in charge here of a very wide, broad investigation, which began 15 years ago for me.
	I have some very good people in a wide variety of fields working on this, literally on several different continents now connected by the Internet.
	And it ranges from the science to the politics to, you know, everything in between.
	Maybe we should be revisiting the whole Cydonia question.
	It's astounding that Tom Van Flanderen would suddenly suggest that what is at Cydonia is, as you have always said,
	not natural.
	I mean, just astounding.
	Here we've got a spacecraft about to begin imaging.
	Well, it's even more astounding because there was a secret meeting at NASA headquarters last November 24th, and that's why Tom is making these very bold pronunciations.
	All right, hold tight.
	We'll be right back.
	Charles and Albuquerque, viente, viente, in Spanish means come.
	It is the familiar or non-formal friendly form of the word in other words come friend
	and uh...
	as so what katie frank of it uh... was running along with
	as somebody was saying there was something that was saying come friend
	in a moment coming up a once again richard c hoagland and we're going to
	be discussed a don't have on something uh... very early
	and uh...
	a very dear to his research and now of course the incredible news that
	apparently what is that said only a is not natural This from Tom Van Flanderen who was so conservative on the issue will ask why the sudden courage.
	Are you having arthritis pain?
	...in Albuquerque, and you mentioned it at the top of this fax that you sent, Richard, the sudden courage of Van Flanderen with regard to what is at Cydonia.
	Where is it coming from?
	Well, you know, this is such a complex political situation.
	We have the State of the Union tonight.
	I have talked with David Oates a few minutes ago.
	I actually woke him up after you called me and wanted me to do something on this issue.
	And the very last statement that Clinton made at the end of the speech has a remarkable reference to NASA, in the most amazing context.
	And as you obviously are aware, David is working on it tomorrow, and should probably have the entire speech done sometime the next day or so.
	And I would strongly recommend that we do something together on this, because it's looking more and more like we have two realities here.
	We have the reality that we're seeing on CNN, And in the joint House, Senate, State of the Union address, and then we have the real reality behind the scenes that everybody in the know knows about except us, the American people, who should know.
	And this release from NASA, which was run by Gannett today, based on a letter issued by the acting administrator of NASA for spaceflight on January 9th, is just another data point that the fix is in.
	The human race is effectively quarantined.
	And my model for what's going on is that we've had for many, many years, 30 years, Art, we've had the in-crowd, the deep level at NASA that knew these secrets and then everybody else who didn't.
	And how can you possibly have an agency where a tiny group of people know crucial things and the rest don't?
	The answer is control of information, control of data.
	If you control the data and you only give the 20 or 30,000 honest people pre-digested pap, The things that you want them to know.
	Right.
	And keep all the good stuff in the deep bio-cabinets and behind the double steel locked doors marked top secret burn before reading.
	Obviously you can go on with the charade for a long time.
	But what's happening now because, and I really have to take some credit here for Enterprise doing this, you know, appearing at Ohio State, being invited to the UN, doing briefings at NASA centers.
	We have for the last, you know, several years, since 1988, Been invited in the NASA front door, you know, five times, officially.
	Right.
	And it wasn't just a jump out of a cake and yell, boo!
	I mean, these people wanted to know what we as an independent investigation have been finding out.
	Well, obviously, what's happening is that the honest guys began to suspect that they weren't getting the whole truth.
	So, of course, instead of leveling with the American people, what they have been doing quietly since 88 is building their own programs To go and verify what people like us, you know, independent investigations have been claiming.
	And in the last several years, under Dan Golden, we've had faster, better, cheaper, smarter, quicker, meaner, I mean, you know, that whole litany, right?
	Right.
	And those missions have now been going places and sending back data to the honest crowd, the middle of the curve.
	And we've had several missions now that have, you know, set back some pretty amazing things.
	Pathfinder this past summer.
	We've had several programs on your show dealing with what Pathfinder really has found versus what NASA claims officially has found.
	And on January 9th, this quick $63 million, you know, from nowhere, sudden prospector mission to the moon, this unmanned mission, this hatbox spacecraft, reached the moon on January 9th.
	Within hours of it reaching there, this letter is fired out to all centers And I will quote it because it's pretty amazing.
	Please do.
	I am directing the centers effective immediately to issue termination notices for all contractual vehicles associated with beyond Earth orbit activities such as human, lunar, or Mars exploration.
	That is a quarantine.
	The fix is in.
	And the question now is only, how does the American people get control, not only of the space program, but control of its government?
	Alright, what job, what slot does Van Flandern actually fill with regard to the Mars mission underway right now?
	Okay, Tom, I'm glad you brought that up because you made a, you slightly misspoke a few minutes ago.
	Tom is not officially connected with NASA.
	Tom was the former head of the Celestial Mechanics Branch.
	For the U.S.
	Naval Observatory.
	He participated in many important projects, most significant of which was the search for Planet X, the planet beyond Pluto.
	And he was indirectly involved with the discovery of the moon, Charon, that orbits Pluto by Christie back in 1978.
	He has left the government.
	Tom runs a private research think tank called the Meta Research Foundation in Washington, D.C.
	Right.
	Tom has been doing independent studies as part of this loose confederation of scientists that have been looking at this data, you know, for many years now, particularly in terms of Mars.
	And his claim to fame, as you know because of the programs we have done, has been his independent model that we live in a solar system where there has been major structural change.
	Planets blown to kingdom come by immense, vast forces in geologic time.
	And that Mars is, in fact, the moon.
	Not a planet in its own right, but the remnant moon that formerly orbited a gas giant planet that used to exist where Mars currently orbits.
	Yes.
	And the elliptical nature of the Mars orbit is a remnant of the celestial mechanics of its primary going away and Mars being kind of left without a dance partner to sail around the Sun.
	Tom has been extremely conservative.
	Given his government background, given his PhD, given his Yale, you know, history of education and all that, in terms of the Cydonia hypothesis, in terms of our work on Mars and on the Moon, up until this meeting a few days ago of the American Astronomical Association, where based on his own work and collaborations, I mean, we had many conversations, he has suddenly been emboldened Basically stand in front of this prestigious group of astronomers, his colleagues, and declare that from his analysis, obviously building on the work of others, there is a more than 50-50 chance, probably 90-10, that the face on Mars and the surrounding things are artificial.
	You must feel very vindicated.
	Well, let's leave me out of the equation for a minute.
	Let me tell you what has emboldened Tom.
	And why, unfortunately, I think Dr. Van Flandern's faith in NASA, as well as the other participants in this secret meeting I talked about at the bottom of the hour, has been woefully misplaced as evidenced by this directive from Richard Wisniewski, Acting Associate Administrator for Spaceflight for NASA Headquarters.
	Back in November, November 24th, There were four or five people that were invited to a very interesting secret meeting in NASA headquarters.
	The meeting was held with a gentleman named Carl Pilker, who is the acting director of the Solar System Exploration Committee for NASA.
	This is the committee, high-level NASA committee, that basically runs all of spaceflight, looking into planetary studies all over the solar system.
	You know, the Near Spacecraft, which is going to Eros, the Prospector mission that arrived at the Moon, the Pathfinder mission, etc.
	He took over from the previous head, who died in a very mysterious way last summer, just a couple of days after we had done a show on Pathfinder.
	I recall that, yes.
	Okay, Dr. Jergen Ray.
	Carl Pilker is a very well-known astronomer.
	He used to be at the University of Hawaii.
	He's written some pretty amazing papers.
	on solar system studies he's a first-rate scientist and he apparently at the behest of uh... stan mcdaniel
	uh... mark carlotto david webb
	and vince di petro was convinced to take a meeting
	with them but with a couple members of his staff at headquarters
	on the afternoon of the twenty fourth of november i was conspicuously not invited to the meeting so i want to
	put that right on the table okay
	during this meeting from sources which have related to us and from things have
	been published on the web from carlotto and from michael winderman
	apparently what dr pilker said was that he was extremely impressed with the work of mcdaniel
	carlotto and company that this had lifted this whole subject far out of the
	realm of the tabloid representations that he had
	been familiar with.
	And made him and NASA realize that, oh my God, this is real science.
	And that, as a matter of course, they were going to take Dr. McDaniel's suggestions.
	Remember, Dr. McDaniel was the Chairman of the Department of Philosophy at Sonoma State University.
	He wrote a voluminous review of our work and many of the other independent investigators back in 1992-93.
	And it was published within days of the disappearance of Mars Observer.
	And he has been basically on NASA's case ever since to do it right, to when the replacement spacecraft arrive, to publish orbits, to announce when the Cydonia opportunities would be, you know, basically available, to prioritize photographing Cydonia with Dr. Mallon's camera on this spacecraft at high resolution, you know, one meters or more or less.
	And to basically do science, as opposed to ignoring the subject.
	Yes, sir.
	And Dr. Mallon, who is the principal investigator on the camera, has consistently, both publicly and on his website, which is linked to our website at EnterpriseMission.com, through your website at ArtBell.com, has said that he's totally interested in Cydonia.
	It's all a trick of light and shadow.
	The face is not there.
	The geometry is not there.
	It's not science.
	It's a bunch of us voodoo.
	Priest making weird noises in the dark, and he's doing science.
	Yes.
	This meeting, in November, basically claimed to have repudiated Dr. Malin's position.
	Karl Pilker said to these four or five people, we don't agree with Dr. Malin.
	We, in fact, intend to follow you, Dr. McDaniel's prescription, and we're going to take photographs of Cydonia on every opportunity We're going to publicize this, we're going to put them on the web, basically live, and we're going to do everything that you have wanted us to do.
	And of course you can imagine these guys jumping up and down.
	Of course.
	What was really surprising, given NASA's postponement of the official mapping mission for a full year, remember the spacecraft arrived last September, September 11th, when we did our Pasadena conference.
	It was aerobraking very nicely, and then something went wrong, and they had to slow down the rate of aerobraking dramatically because of this one solar panel that flexes dangerously past the limits.
	And they actually said something about the Mars atmosphere having expanded.
	In one orbit.
	A one 45-hour orbit, it had doubled in density.
	Doubled.
	This is kind of mysterious, and you can, you know, get it all kinds of reasons, but that's kind of technical, so we don't need to go there tonight.
	The point is that instead of arriving in the mapping orbit in March of this year, March of 1998, NASA announced a few months ago that it would take another year to get into the right orbit, March of 1999.
	Right.
	So one of the surprises, one of the shocking surprises of this secret meeting, and it was secret because it was very closely held by all the participants, including NASA, was that they would be in a position to begin to do mapping.
	In this still very elliptical orbit, as the spacecraft dips down to about 150 miles above Mars at the low point, the orbital dynamics will bring that orbit into position to photograph Cydonia beginning in early March of this year.
	Wow.
	Now, obviously, hearing all of this from my sources, and I've had, you know, as Cronkite used to tell us, you know, three sources, well, we have three independent sources, so we know the meeting took place, we know the promises were made, And, of course, I'm very skeptical of the promises because this agency has not got a sterling track record of being, you know, on the level of the American people.
	So, I'm very skeptical until I hear a crucial point that comes out of this meeting.
	Vince DiPietro is in the meeting.
	Remember, Vince DiPietro is the partnership with Greg Molinar.
	Correct.
	The two NASA engineers working for Lockheed who, back in 1979, rediscovered in the files at Goddard the face photograph and began their own independent work
	and I cite luminously their work in the Monuments of Mars, which is my
	chronicle of all of this activity going back to the very beginning.
	DePietro's in the meeting. Karl Pilker apparently turns to DePietro and he says,
	uh, Vince, he said, by the way, he says, if these new photographs, which we're
	going to begin in March, confirm what is there, you will get the
	credit for the discovery. Really? Now this piece of information, to me,
	has an interesting ring to it.
	Because for one thing, it's incredibly politic.
	The actual discoverer of the face on Mars is a scientist and astronomer named Tobias Owen.
	Remember, if you read in Monuments, it was Toby Owen who was pouring through the, in essence, Polaroids from Viking back in that summer of 1976 Who found the face on Mars on the floor in the photographs that they were trying to mosaic, and who on that Sunday afternoon exclaimed to Jerry Safin, Oh my God, look at this!
	Sure.
	So the fact that Carl Pilker, head of Solar System Exploration and Headquarters, is promising DiPietro that he will get the nod as the discoverer, is really kind of interesting from several different perspectives.
	Not the least of which, of course, is Vince's role in this discussion over the years and his personal reactions against certain other investigators in terms of the long-standing unfolding politics of who's doing what and when, vis-a-vis Sedonia.
	And it was this piece of information that frankly made me believe strongly that in fact this time it was for real.
	It needs someone that they can control, who politically will sit on the talk shows and on Nightline
	or whatever, on your show perhaps, and say what the party line is going to be after we've gone
	past Is it real or is it Memorex?
	The real war, the real issue, the real interest, of course, is what the heck does it mean?
	Who's down there?
	Who did it?
	How long do they live there?
	Did they come to Earth?
	All those questions which I discuss at Great Lakes and Monuments and do some speculating at the end of the book, those are the questions that NASA needs to totally control the dialogue on if it's going to move to the next level in this interesting political game.
	A new courage, and everything else taken into consideration, no matter whose discovery it is.
	How likely is it, in your opinion now, Richard, that these objects, the face, the other objects in the Cydonia region, are simply not natural, were put there by somebody from somewhere?
	Years ago I passed that threshold.
	There's no doubt in my mind that we're dealing with an artificial complex, and one of the reasons is because of what Pathfinder found.
	I mean, Pathfinder landed in the middle of a second city, but that's a whole other discussion.
	The point is that I have tried to tell, through various sources, these people in that meeting, including Tom, that don't get their hopes up.
	That even in promising DiPietro, he'd get the nod.
	There was a part of me which said, wait a minute, this is not going down the way the 20 years leading up to it have mandated we should look at this.
	And I've tried to caution them not to get their hopes up.
	Well, this letter from, you know, Mr. Wisnowski, the acting administrator for spaceflight.
	Effectively quarantining mankind.
	Exactly.
	It tells me that the fix is in.
	And what we're going to see in March, if we see anything at all, We'll be probably fake photographs.
	And they've had these people now out on the stump, you know, the electric circuit, on the internet, whatever, basically touting the honesty and the integrity and the scientific verisimilitude of NASA, which of course is part of the shell game.
	This is part of the con.
	This is part of the lie.
	You're dealing with people that think of us, the American people who are paying for it, as somewhere down the food chain, slightly above the microbes.
	There is a very strong perception tonight on my part that we are being had.
	That we are not being told the truth from the President on down on this issue.
	And if I needed any confirmation, it came when I woke poor David Oates up out of a sound sleep.
	What was the reference, Richard, to NASA?
	At the very end, Clinton is talking about the Constitution and the documents of preserving it for the 21st century.
	And?
	And he says, NASA feels lost with it.
	NASA feels lost with it.
	That was a reversal.
	That was a reverse.
	All right.
	Hang tight.
	We'll be back to you after the top of the...
	...in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
	Richard, the following facts in.
	I share Richard Hoagland's shock over NASA's sudden decision to terminate all activities related to human exploration beyond low Earth orbit.
	But, please be advised that Richard is wrong about the date on which Lunar Prospector arrived on the Moon.
	It went into orbit early on the 11th, not the 9th.
	My guess is the decision was political, just like the Glenn announcement.
	NASA and the White House want to focus our attention on the International Space Station.
	When Clinton talked about the, quote, vast ocean of space, end quote, last night, he failed to mention that we have no plan to leave the safe harbor of Earth orbit.
	That's Bill Melberg, author of Moon Missions.
	Richard?
	Well, alright, they launched on the 6th, and it was a three-day orbit to the moon, and I have not checked, actually, when they got there.
	But let's assume for a minute that, you know, Mr. Melbourne is accurate.
	Melbourne, right.
	And my interesting suspicion here is that if he is accurate, then this was a preemptive strike.
	What you gotta remember is that the prospector mission is supposed to be scouting the moon for moon base.
	Oh, water.
	Scouting the moon for resources.
	Water, I believe water, right?
	Well, that's the MacGuffin, alright?
	If they confirm the water that Clementine, as far back as 1994, with the bi-static radar experiment, strongly suggested is at the poles, particularly the south pole of the moon, in that deep, deep, dark, forever night crater, where it's cold-trapped, then a moon base becomes incredibly easy by current contemporary technological standards.
	Even Carl Sagan on his last Nightline appearance the night, you know, a few nights before Carl died.
	Yes.
	He sat there on the show with Ted and he said, if there is water, it makes human occupation of the moon much, much easier.
	In fact, even to something else, which was bizarre because it makes no sense at all, he said it opens up the prospect, albeit small, of life.
	Which makes no sense at all because you're not going to have microbes living on the moon.
	The only life that water on the moon would open up would be colonization, the kind of thing that we've been looking at now for several years.
	So what was Dr. Sagan trying to say a few days before he left us?
	This letter is so antithetical to what NASA has been telling us.
	I mean, this $63 million mission is supposed to go there and assay the resources of the moon, not just for science, not just for the lunar cellenologists to figure out how the moon got there and how it evolved, but primarily in the minds of a lot of people, at Houston in particular, for moon-based studies.
	There are actually ongoing plans that Dr. Golden has set in motion, and suddenly If this gentleman is correct, days before they even got there, the rug is yanked out from all those plans because it doesn't matter how much water there is, if you don't have the vehicles in the pipeline, the development of the technology to go and make use of it, it means nothing.
	Nothing at all.
	It just doesn't make sense.
	It makes no sense at all, unless, as I keep saying, you know, and I sound like some kind of redundant mantra, the fix is in.
	One of the things that I and my colleagues have been working on very quietly behind the scenes, preparing for not only publication on the web, but also for a major show, probably on your program, Art, is to move our attention from Mars back to the Moon, now that we have Prospector in orbit.
	While a lot of people's attention have been focused on Mars, and we have been encouraging that, you know, looking at the Pathfinder pictures, you know, the leaks and all of that, There has been a quiet group of people, part of Enterprise, whose names we will reveal shortly and who I would like to bring on as guests, who've been doing some stunningly important work going through the archives, doing the grunt work on the photographs that we have began looking at many years ago in NASA's own files.
	And they have turned up such astonishingly, incredibly impressive things that we're almost ready for prime time.
	And what I wanted to do in the next month or two after we really knew that we had a spacecraft giving us data, was to do a show with you and simultaneously with the web, laying out what we know is there.
	I never imagined that we would be kicking it off, you know, tonight, with this announcement in the last couple of days, that we have basically decided to stay at the shores, you know, not even venture into the deep ocean, And return our backs on this idea of going back to the moon.
	What has happened to us?
	I mean, what has happened to us?
	Well, it's even more bizarre because only a month ago, I mean, this is what, the evening of the 20th, the morning of the 28th now?
	That's right.
	A few days ago, about a month ago, in December, just around Christmas, Gene Cernan and Jack Schmidt, astronaut Cernan, who, as everyone knows, was the commander of Apollo 17, And Jack Schmidt, who was the first and last geologist to ever make it to the moon, Caltech graduate, resident of New Mexico, senator from New Mexico, hint hint.
	Yes.
	They stood at a press conference in Washington and basically talked about this resurgence of interest in going back to the moon.
	And they cited programs like Prospector and the beginning of basing studies and all of this kind of A whole new generation of young scientists and, you know, young pups have come up the ranks and are now gnashing at the, you know, with a bit in their teeth to go out there and do what NASA used to do.
	And they have all had the rug whipped out from under them.
	Yeah, I'm beginning to, this is like whiplash.
	I mean, here's why we should go to the moon.
	Here's why we're considering returning to the moon.
	Here's what we think's on the moon.
	We think it can sustain life.
	We're not going.
	It's like Europa.
	Remember Europa?
	Of course.
	Remember the wonderful program that Ted did, you know, acknowledging me at the top and Wes Hunter sitting there saying, oh, we're going to put these submarines down, we're going to prowl around this ocean and who knows what we're going to find and, you know, examine the beasties.
	And the next day NASA announced it was canceling the Discover missions being in the pipeline in competition for the limited slots for NASA funding to go to Europa.
	Correct again.
	This is a clear indication, boys and girls, if you don't understand, you know, Double Speak 101.
	When the government says one thing and does another, follow what they do, don't follow what they say.
	What they say are lies and propaganda.
	What they do is actually what's going on.
	And what they're doing is cancelling NASA.
	Now remember, several months ago, we had some pretty amazing reversals.
	From Doug and Dave.
	No, from Don Savage and Ray Vallard.
	Yes.
	And, you know, David Oates, God bless him, is probably a national treasure.
	Because without him, we would not have, out of their own mouths, in a voluminous stream now, which can be correlated with photographs and memos and a lot of other data, The absolute truth, as their subconscious is telling us, despite what their words are saying, forward.
	And remember one of those peculiar reversals that made no sense at all?
	Where they, where, where, where, either it was Savage or Ballard who said something about, and I can't remember this because I don't have the web in front of me, they're, they're, they're killing NASA slowly.
	Yes.
	Well, it now makes awful, awful, awful sense.
	A lot of things are making awful sense tonight, Art.
	One of the things that I have been asked to tell you and the audience is, when I talk with David, is that tonight, in the middle of his analysis of the Clinton reversals and the speech, he and Karen got noticed that they are being sued for half a million dollars for the house that was burned out from under them.
	Oh my God.
	And the reason is negligence.
	Oh, what is the proposition?
	That, uh... That they burned it themselves.
	This is part of an assault.
	This is part of a war against, you know... They're charging arson?
	Yeah.
	What they're basically saying is that it was their negligence that caused it to get burned down.
	And what I told David is, calm down, we will get you attorneys, we will put this on our show, we will let the American people know what bastards these people are, because they can't stand the light.
	The cockroaches will scramble if the light is shown on them.
	And I would hope that, for one thing, Peter Gersten would volunteer his legal services to David, and any other attorneys out there that would like to have, you know, maybe the Constitution, have one last hurrah before we just all pack it in.
	Because obviously David can't afford a half a million dollar lawsuit.
	Obviously.
	Obviously.
	But remember how we were under attack a few weeks ago?
	Of course.
	And I discussed it on your show.
	Well, those people ran like, you know, terrified cockroaches from the light.
	And we got our tapes back.
	I want to announce tonight that we got the Phoenix tapes back.
	And we are proceeding to edit.
	The next in the series of the videos that Enterprise has been putting out over the last several years.
	When do you expect that to be complete?
	Not at least within the next couple of months, all right?
	There's so many things going on and we want to do it right, and obviously now we have to factor in the whole new political spin here, which is on the one hand, NASA's telling folks, oh, we're going to give you the pictures.
	On the other hand, they're basically locking us into a prison on this planet.
	Quarantined, again, is the word that comes to mind.
	I can actually imagine a number of reasons why we would be possibly quarantined or be ordered to be quarantined.
	I'm not exactly sure how this would come down.
	I'm sure that NASA would have received word in some way or another.
	Well, there are more reversals in Clinton.
	And again, with David's permission, what he did was he went to the end of the speech, and he was dead tired, and just before he collapsed, to get up tomorrow morning and tape Hillary on Good Morning America, and to do two Clinton speeches, which are being given in Pennsylvania and in Wisconsin, because obviously we're not getting the truth forward.
	Maybe we can get it backward.
	He did two more reversals at the end of the speech.
	Remember the part about John Glenn?
	Yes.
	Well, on the President's mind, subconsciously, was something that connects with what he said the other night to Jim Lehrer.
	Remember your discussion last night with Jim Mars?
	Of course.
	And the, to hell with the Earth, the desert will answer.
	That's right.
	Or the desert answers, I forget the exact phraseology.
	Close enough.
	Pretty chilling.
	Because here's a President supposedly worried about, you know, illicit affairs, and he's actually thinking On a mega scale.
	Not to hell with his job, or to hell with people, or whatever.
	To hell with the Earth.
	Which of course connects with what we have been tracking from other sources for several months now.
	This president knows an awful lot about the big picture, and is very good at keeping his counsel, except from David Oates.
	By the way, David will not tell you this, but when he reversed Mack McCarty the other day... Yes?
	He did not put this on his website because David is very, frankly David is pretty humble.
	He's on to something extraordinarily important and David has kept his head and he's kept his cool and that's why I value him as a researcher, as a colleague, and as a friend.
	But McCarty says crystal clear, watch out for David Oates in reverse at yesterday morning's press conference.
	Well, now... Which means they're watching David Oates.
	Well, there's a lot I've got to catch up on here.
	Yes, you do.
	But you remember Orson Welles, make no wine before it's time.
	Yes.
	David is an overworked researcher who desperately needs additional help.
	He's doing all this while trying to maintain that business and his therapy, and he is overworked and underloved and overstressed.
	So, I would recommend we give him at least a couple of days to go through this, to make sure it's correct, to not put pressure on him, And it will be there when we're all ready, all right?
	That's my recommendation.
	In the part about John Glenn, just before the end of the speech, in reverse, Clinton says again, and he's going to put these up on the web so we can all hear them, your life.
	See a war.
	See a war.
	Well, I can see one coming.
	And that, of course, connects with what's going on with Saddam Hussein.
	Right.
	And is it bigger than Saddam Hussein?
	Remember, we are looking, from Enterprise perspective, at the largest imaginable scope here, which is the true history of the human species.
	Remnants of ancient, glorious cultures that are probably human-derived in the rest of the solar system, on the Moon, on Mars, at a government agency which tripped over this 30 years ago, and because of Brookings, didn't know how to tell the rest of us And succeeding administrations which have gotten deeper and deeper into the miasma of the in crowd knowing something and the out crowd knowing nothing.
	And now we're at a point where you have to factor in that maybe we're not just looking at ruins, there may actually be guys running around in spacecraft.
	And the reason I can say that is because we have NASA videos showing extraordinary activity that is non-Newtonian, is definitely not ice crystals, and we actually have evidence of some kind of You know, stuff going on upstairs.
	Pyrotechnics.
	Things shooting at other things.
	Which should not be happening.
	No, we should not be shooting at them.
	So, when Clinton says, to hell with the Earth, the desert will answer, it gave me an awful chill.
	Then tonight he says, your life, see a war, see a war.
	And then NASA feels lost with it.
	What you don't know, but you're about to find out, is that there was a spacecraft, a NASA spacecraft, launched a year ago that came by the Earth a couple days ago on January 23rd.
	At around 10.23 in the morning, it made its closest approach to the Earth.
	It came back to the Earth, in other words.
	Using the Earth as a slingshot.
	Exactly.
	Using it as a gravitational slingshot to propel it on to its eventual rendezvous In 1999, with an asteroid.
	433 arrows.
	As a matter of fact, my understanding was it might have been possible to have seen the spacecraft making its close approach.
	With telescopes over the naked eye or something.
	Well, actually, it's 1023 in the morning.
	But here is where things get really squirrely.
	Because remember, we've been tracking a bizarre NASA pattern.
	Based on rituals going back to ancient Egyptian mythology.
	Right.
	We've been doing it with a computer.
	In fact, Art, you've got Redshift.
	Oh, I do.
	You ought to set it up there, take the cues off the website, and run the program yourself and see what happens.
	It's just astonishing how this has become the code key.
	This is kind of like when the Brits and we broke the German code with Ultra and the Japanese code in World War II.
	We can read their minds.
	It's a whole other tool because they're operating on this ancient Egyptian ritual pattern.
	Well, I plugged in the numbers for the N.E.A.R., the Near Mission, which is the Asteroid Mission Encounter, on the 23rd.
	Yes, sir.
	And the reason I did this is because as part of the NASA PR, it was revealed that it was going to encounter the Earth at 1023 a.m.
	local time.
	Passing 330 miles.
	That's 33.
	33 is an important secret society Egyptian number.
	There are 33 degrees of masonry, etc, etc.
	Yes.
	330 miles above, guess where?
	What was the closest approach?
	Well... All the possible places on Earth that it could have swung closest to the Earth right over.
	Egypt, Egypt.
	You're close.
	Say, um, let's see.
	Close?
	I'm close?
	You're very close.
	Hit me with it.
	The boundary between Iraq and Kuwait.
	Well, I was close.
	Middle East, anyway.
	Alright, uh, hold on, Richard.
	We'll be right back, and we are gonna open lines if you have questions.
	The quarantine.
	We'll be right back.
	Sucked.
	Almost wordless.
	David Oates facing a half-million-dollar lawsuit with regard to the destruction of his house.
	Richard C. Hoagland reporting to us that NASA plans to eliminate all Moon-Mars projects manned, quarantined, virtually quarantined to Earth.
	Just a remarkable set of developments and we're going to get phone lines open here shortly and invite you to ask questions of Richard.
	I think sometimes he is best, as you all know, when he's pinned down a bit.
	Absolutely fresh.
	Now to Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard, you're back on the air again.
	What a morning.
	All right, you mentioned you have one more thing you want to get out before we go to calls.
	Yeah, it's very important to understand that all of this has to be viewed against the context of this political initiative that Steve Bassett and Stephen Greer and I and many others have been attempting in Washington.
	Vis-a-vis this White House.
	And the model that Bassett has, that I have disagreed with privately, you know, in a very good way.
	I mean, people can disagree and respect each other and keep going.
	And I keep trying to tell Steve, my dear friend Steve, that it's not a level playing field.
	And at some level, Steven has to believe In order to be effective in that weird world inside the Beltway in Washington, that it is a level playing field.
	That we're dealing with people who are politically naive and don't know the game, and if you simply educate them, they'll come to the, quote, correct decision.
	And so he was taking the lead, because of certain, you know, developments here on this last-minute effort to get to the President and get to the staff of the White House, as he described last night, A briefing sheet that basically laid out some options for the President to use in tonight's speech that would basically capture the imagination of the country and the world and at least invite potential hearings with all these witnesses on the UFO front and on the NASA ETR artifacts front to come and present their evidence in the next several months.
	And I gently kept telling him, Stephen, it ain't gonna work because it's not a level playing field.
	Well, tonight, I have what I would consider to be compelling proof, David's reversals notwithstanding, that the fix is in.
	And it goes back to those lunar charts that we have been developing, the sky charts, the celestial programs from Redshift.
	Yes.
	Of this ancient ritual pattern.
	Because I ran the pattern for Washington tonight during the speech, okay?
	Now imagine you're standing in Washington and you're looking, you know, south from the Capitol toward the southern part of the sky, and it's clear in Washington and you can see the stars.
	Yes.
	The speech started at 9 o'clock, about 9.05, 9.08, right?
	Right.
	At 9.35, Sirius, which is a key participant in this cosmic drama vis-a-vis the Egyptians, reached 33 degrees elevation above the horizon.
	That magic 33 again, okay?
	And then, as we're moving up toward 10 o'clock, and I'm watching, you know, at 10.04, when he gets to the Saddam Hussein part, basically saying, Saddam, we're going to war.
	You're not going to get away with this.
	The world is watching.
	You can't ignore the world.
	Remember that part?
	Of course.
	At that exact moment, literally at 10.04 when he's saying that, in the east, Rising is Leo, the lion, the sphinx, which stands for Mars in the Egyptian cosmology, the god of war, and Regulus, the king, the heart of the lion,
	...is precisely at 33 degrees.
	All of the symbology, and of course, as you know, I asked Zahi Hawass if he thought anything in Egypt was based on this symbology, and he gave me a great big Egyptian, no way.
	Well, Mr. Hawass, Dr. Hawass, was lying.
	Flat-out lying.
	Let me give you the numah here.
	Bill, end of the speech at 1024, right?
	Yep.
	How do we know that?
	Because good old CNN puts down on the bottom right-hand corner of the screen a running chronology.
	Yes.
	At 1024, my program and Bill's program coincide, and bingo, that's when Sirius reached precisely the meridian.
	He stopped that speech because he's facing, remember, across the house, on the back wall above the doors, there's this big clock, right?
	Yes.
	He brought that speech to a close exactly when Sirius reached the meridian.
	Right on the money.
	Isis.
	Right on the money.
	All right, Richard, let us go to some calls.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hello, this is Sebastian in Phoenix.
	Yes, sir.
	How's it going?
	It's fine.
	I listen to you all the time at work.
	Two questions for Richard, first of all.
	I do like your show, and I've heard Richard a couple of times.
	I have a computer, and that's how I listen to you, because my radio doesn't pick up real well.
	Thank you.
	I'm sure that Richard's aware that the President doesn't write his own speeches, so you're not really reading his mind.
	You're reading the people who write the speeches' mind.
	And he has a whole staff, right?
	Good point.
	Well, Paul Begala was one of the key inputters, but remember, it's not what's on the paper.
	It's what he's thinking about when he's reading what's on the paper.
	And if you watch the close-ups tonight, I saw more jaw action and more jaw muscle action on Bill Clinton than I've ever seen before.
	Well, that's because he's nervous, not because... Well, he was under great emotional stress, but if you follow how David Oates' work works... Right.
	When the subject is stressed and is emotionally, you know, distraught, the reversals are more frequent and are clearer.
	Because the right-hand side of the brain, in his model, is able to predominate over the more metonymic, logical left-hand side, which, of course, is more controlled.
	So, it's the stress level that gives you the indication, regardless of what's written on the page.
	Okay, but here's my question.
	If you're reversing the speech, then you're... No, no, no, no.
	You're reversing what he is saying, and this gets into a whole discourse on how does it work.
	And for that, I'll refer you to the real audio archives of David Oates' programs.
	Okay, well, I'll look at his thing on the net.
	My other point, then I'll hang up and listen to you.
	Well, I take it you're not that familiar with David Oates' work?
	Every time I go on Art's webpage, I always want to access it and I'm always listening to him live.
	You've got to take live versus research and all that, but I'm interested.
	I'm skeptical, however.
	All right.
	Good question.
	Yeah, my other point is that...
	If Bill Clinton, you say 33 degrees and you go on about this, if he can plan this all perfectly, it's kind of funny, you would think that he could at least plan his thing with Monica Lewinsky a little better and not get caught.
	If he's that smart, you'd just think that... Alright, well let's get Richard to comment on that.
	Monica Lewinsky, the whole thing, it's not a coincidence that it occurs now, is it?
	You know, we're living in a world of ambiguity.
	It would be wonderful if we had crystal clear evidence.
	But we're living in this world where you have to make reasoned judgments.
	I know that our January 5th show, where we basically laid out the case for this administration, interested in this subject matter that was not generally known, confirmed by Webster Hubble's book, confirmed by Stephen Greer briefing the head of the CIA, all right?
	Whether it's real ignorance of the issue or feigned ignorance in an effort of the administration to get out in front.
	You know, they call it plausible deniability.
	Absolutely.
	It almost doesn't matter.
	The fact is that there was a positioning of the administration in a public way That was setting us up for potentially an open door, and we walked through that door and we did one hell of a show that night.
	Everyone participating, right?
	Oh, yes.
	That show was... I FedExed copies of that show that we pulled directly off the satellite back to Bassett.
	Bassett had copies made.
	We papered the hill.
	535 copies of your show wound up in every senator and congressman's office, okay?
	We know from our sources, Greer's sources and others, That the response from the Art Bell audience, the 20 million people who are listening to us right now, was overwhelming and overwhelmingly positive.
	That tens of thousands of faxes and emails hit those committee chairmen all over the hill.
	We do not have a read on how many went into the White House, but every indication going into the week before the speech was that if it was going to happen, this was when it's going to happen.
	And then in the wee dawn hours of January 20th, Which, by the way, is a crucial date on this ritual Egyptian calendar.
	Of course.
	It corresponds to 19.5, alright?
	And we'll do a show where we actually lay this out in great, nauseating details tonight.
	But on 19.5, suddenly all hell breaks loose and a two-ton elephant is plunked down in Bill Clinton's lap.
	Now we have this morning, actually it was yesterday morning, we have Hillary sitting on NBC saying it is a vast Right-wing conspiracy.
	She didn't say Republican.
	She said right-wing.
	Well, we will get into that at some other program.
	The point is that from the White House itself and from the First Lady, there is indication of what we suspect, which is this was not just an accident.
	This was timed to basically jerk this president's chain and say, look, Bill, if you go beyond the edge of the paper, There's going to be all hell to pay.
	And I've been watching over the last week the most remarkable shenanigans, up to and including that Dallas Herald story last night that went out there and suddenly is retracted.
	Dallas Morning News, yeah.
	Dallas Morning News.
	I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a fearless prediction that in the next day or so, Ken Starr's case disappears.
	He will not give Monica the immunity that she wants.
	He will not prosecute her.
	She will stand pat.
	And this has been a holding pattern to see if Bill was going to do the right thing, stay with the party line, or whether he was going to break cover.
	Now, what's the independent correlation that we're on to something?
	Upstairs in orbit.
	The Mir space station was visited a couple of days ago by Endeavor.
	They are still docked.
	And David Wolf, Former astronaut, I mean, current astronaut, formerly on Mir for four months, was gonna come home, and, uh, uh, Andy Thompson, who's the new guy, is going to replace him for the next four months.
	The night they arrive, or the morning they arrive, suddenly, NASA tells the world, whoops, the Russian spacesuit doesn't fit.
	That's right.
	As a matter of fact, as a matter of fact, the Russians were angry.
	They were pissed.
	They were furious.
	Gentlemen, boys and girls, come on, let's all grow up.
	This is a code.
	They were given an alert.
	It was kind of like, if the President is going to be dumb enough to do this stupid thing and let part of this cat out of the bag, we're going to get you guys home down below the atmosphere quicker than you can say scat because it ain't going to be healthy upstairs.
	This is a projection.
	This is a model, alright?
	Twelve hours later, yesterday morning, Just before the speech, the day of the speech, suddenly, Thompson says, well, you know, we pull out a couple of straps and we did this, and boy, you know, the damn thing fits.
	Right.
	Now that's insane.
	I mean, no one in their right mind as an engineer is going to believe that you're going to send a man...
	Call the wildcard lines, area 702-727-1295.
	We can't.
	You know what I recall, Richard?
	I recall that there was a woman who was supposed to go to orbit with Mir and did not go because the spacesuit would not fit.
	But she was on the ground.
	That's right.
	Yeah, I forget her name, but it was part of this whole Uh, you know, is it safe?
	Is it not safe?
	And they substituted another... In fact, Wolf was substituted for her, okay?
	Because the spacesuit didn't fit.
	Right.
	But the point is that you don't wait until you get them into orbit, and you spend half a billion dollars with the shuttle getting them there, and then suddenly find out that, whoops, we sewed it wrong.
	So I interpreted this as a code, and the reason it was a spacesuit as a code I mean, they could have used anything, right?
	Code words.
	I'm sure they have code words for emergencies, like when you're walking through an airport and you hear someone say, well, Mr. Thompson, please come to the front desk.
	The security guys know that Mr. Thompson, of course, means terrorists are all over the damn airport, right?
	The reason the spacesuit was a code is because spacesuit is synonymous with safety.
	And you need your spacesuit if somebody's going to start shooting.
	And why would they start shooting?
	Go back and look at the NASA video, STS-80 and STS-48.
	We've got guys doing stuff upstairs that, frankly, is not in anybody's space program that I ever read about.
	So, look, the bottom line is we are being lied to up, down, left, right, and Mr. Clinton is up to his eyebrows in this, and the Monica Lewinsky thing is one hell of a diversion and something to threaten him with, and my bet is, my projection is, now that he's been a good boy, Now that we've simply had vanilla for our State of the Union, and everything is fine, and oh yeah, we threatened Saddam, that you're going to see Ken Starr go back into his kennel, and you're going to see the Paula Jones thing move forward, and the Lewinsky problem will simply melt away.
	It would appear that way at this point.
	I feel that they've offered a proffer, as you know, a kind of a sketch of what she would say if she testifies, and my understanding is that does not include Supporting to perjury statements or anybody asking her to lie or anything of that sort.
	And so, of course, you don't really have a legal case for anything if that... Well, what you've got here is you've got these tapes between her and... I love the way they keep calling Tripp her friend.
	Now, with friends like that, you know... He needs enemies.
	I have a question.
	You've got an obvious Bush operative in Linda Tripp.
	Identified, attacked by Bennett, put over in the Pentagon, a hostile person.
	You then have a young, we'll assume the public record, a young naive intern who they want to move out of the White House.
	Have you ever been to the Pentagon?
	I have not, no.
	Alright, it is the world, it used to be the world's largest building until NASA built the Vertical Assembly Building down at Cape Canaveral.
	Right.
	It is a huge, sprawling complex with multiple layers and corridors and you can get lost.
	I mean, there are people that have been there ten years that get lost, alright?
	So you send the one person over, you know, after the Vince Foster thing, and then a year or two later you send this other person, Monica, over, and guess what?
	They wind up in the same office!
	Now, who in their right mind put these two women together in the same office So that they could talk to each other on the phone.
	In other words, this smells to high heaven, boys and girls.
	It was a diversion.
	And what happened tonight was because the decision was made not to go beyond the edge of the paper.
	We have been quarantined.
	Quarantined.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi, Art.
	This is Brad in Paulsville.
	Hi, Brad.
	And I'm glad to have you doing this tonight.
	It is high time.
	Yes, sir.
	And yeah, Dick, I have a question.
	I have not been hearing anything about this quarantine that's going on.
	I mean, like, this is a surprise to me.
	It was to me, too.
	Well, Gannett ran it, I think, in the last couple of days, and one of my excellent sources who I would, you know, I like acknowledging people, but I would like to preserve this source, potentially for other useful tidbits, so I will not mention them on the air tonight, but we have a very efficient, very effective, very vigilant team out there.
	And they funneled important data and intelligence back to us, and as soon as it came across my fax machine, I zipped it over to Art, because I thought he might be interested.
	And I was right.
	Well, you know, like, this is quite nerve-wracking for those of us who are hoping for a Mars mission.
	Oh, remember, guys, I've been telling you, you can't trust them.
	You must do this ourselves.
	We have got to get to the bottom of this.
	And we're not going to be able to send private missions out there, because remember, if NASA's officially cancelling all missions to other places, if a private group was to try to put together a mission, as I discussed some years ago, it would be shot down.
	We are quarantined.
	This is, this cinches it.
	Oh.
	Well, one begins to feel a little bit like Galileo here.
	Is one permitted to say that the fecal material has already struck the rotary air oscillator?
	One is permitted to say that, yes.
	Okay.
	Well, good.
	Keep up the good work, Dick.
	I'll be in touch.
	Thanks.
	All right.
	Take care.
	It certainly has, and that is the way you can put it, Richard.
	Thank you.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Not a lot of time to the top of the hour.
	Richard, I've got two... One thing I want to say, the TWA 800, Yeah, local news ran a story that this Eastwick Airlines, whatever it was, they played the pilot's voices.
	And he saw a light coming toward him.
	Right.
	And he turned on his landing lights.
	And that was apparently before the plane blew up.
	And the network news did not carry that.
	My local station, CBS station, carried it.
	If anybody has caught that, it has a tape of that.
	But let me ask you a question, Richard.
	Okay.
	The face on Mars, the picture.
	Yes.
	I see two of them in the same picture.
	Over to the lower right, there is another, there's a face rock, there's another rock, and then there's a miniature Which looks exactly like the big one.
	Send me a sketch, alright?
	Fax me a sketch.
	I don't have a sketch of it.
	Well, make one.
	Oh, I can't draw, but if you look at that photograph from the Viking... Do you have my book?
	No, I don't.
	You just start there.
	Get my book, Xerox it, draw over it, do an overlay, and then fax it to me.
	Alright, we'll have him do that.
	There certainly is one face there, and then there are a number of objects that would have a relationship to what's at Giza in Egypt, right?
	Yeah, the geometry is exact.
	All right.
	We've got another hour, and so if you've got questions, we've got Richard C. Hoagland here on Quarantined Earth.
	I'm Art Bell.
	A question long-standing.
	Art, please tell us, or have Richard tell us over the air, where in the world can we get Redshift?
	I've heard Richard talk about it so many times.
	I've been dying to get a copy.
	Can't find it in Kansas City, even at the CompUSA Superstore.
	Please, please, please tell us, the audience, where we can get Redshift and a ballpark figure on what it costs.
	It's 59 bucks.
	It should be available in any good computer software store.
	The copy we got for you, which was sent to you, what?
	Six months ago, something like that?
	At least, yes.
	Yeah, we got it here in Albuquerque.
	It's made by the Marist Corporation.
	It's actually a former Soviet Union program, you know.
	No, I had no idea.
	There's an awful lot of Russian programming involved in this.
	It's really excellent.
	It uses the JPL ephemeris for the solar system positions because there's been very close
	cooperation between the two space programs.
	And it's now in its second, you know, marked version, Redshift II.
	It's the Marist Corporation and they're headquartered in Northern California in the Bay Area.
	And that's, you probably can find it on the web.
	And in the next break what I'll do is go downstairs, I'll get the box and I'll read their website
	so people can actually go to it and find out how to order the darn thing
	okay good Here comes the public... By the way, there are many other programs that are comparable.
	The thing that is so stunning about Redshift is it allows you to go to the surface of other planets and do lat-longs on Mars or on the Moon, and that's how we got onto this, because we simply looked at the landings and launch times For all the manned and unmanned missions to various places, and you need a program that has that capability, otherwise you're limited to just the Earth.
	Well, obviously the interest with a constant reference to it, Richard.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hi, this is Greg from Augusta.
	Yes, sir?
	Yeah, I mean, this whole deal, it seems like a great big disinformation campaign between Clinton and NASA and the moon, the space station, and just everything.
	Don't forget John Glenn.
	Yeah, John Glenn, too.
	And it seems to me like it's a total subjugation of the United States government, if not the world community.
	And that sort of disturbs me, and I'm wondering what kind of fulcrum or coercion do they have here, and why are they doing it covertly instead of overtly if they've got all this power?
	Well, that gets us into very deep water in some of the things that Jim Mars was talking about last night.
	Look, as you know, I have been extremely reluctant to talk UFOs because, like, you know, we don't do windows, we don't do UFOs.
	I backed into this through the artifacts doorway, through the ruins doorway.
	My background was mainstream science.
	Hayden Planetarium, Walter Cronkite, NASA consultant.
	You know, squeaky clean, and I used to actually believe these guys.
	And when I started looking at these pictures from Mars, from the Viking mission, which I was there, I covered, I was, you know, part of the extraordinary experience the summer of 1976, I really believed that it was only up and up and that it would be only a matter of time before we knew what's really out there.
	And I watched, looking in hindsight now, back in time, I watched the most peculiar paradoxes going on around the Viking mission.
	I watched NASA people basically chomping at the bit to talk about finding life, and I watched an agency which basically papered over the discoveries of people like Gil Levin, one of the biologists on the three biology experiments on Viking.
	When the experiment came up with positive results, NASA did everything to deny the results.
	And Levin has written a book, which is not quite within my reach, so I can't read you the title.
	But it's published by North Atlantic Books, my publisher, and it's basically the inside story of the discovery of microbial life on Mars that the agency in 76 refused to acknowledge.
	You begin to look at this and you say to yourself, wait a minute, what's wrong with this picture?
	Why have we got, you know, lip service, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, the agency never does the logical thing.
	I mean, people have said to me for years, look, Hoagland, if you and those other guys are right, if there's a face on Mars and ruins and cities and all that, heck, this would be a gold card for NASA.
	They would be able to go to the Congress and get bushel baskets of money, and of course, because they could do that, if it's there, they would be doing it, and since they're not doing it, it can't be there.
	Which is kind of weird reasoning, because it assumes that the reality you see on CNN is a reality.
	It assumes that the logic of the level playing field is, in fact, the real logic of this weird game.
	And it's been 15 years now since I first started down this trail, and even without the benefit of David Oates, I have found, much to my awful, awful disappointment, that the honest folks at NASA are being manipulated along with everybody else by the handful that know the game is rigged, that know that the fix is in, Know that we're not free agents.
	We are not free.
	We are under some kind of mandate.
	And for one breathtaking moment, it looked like Bill Clinton was going to kick over the traces.
	This case is going to fall apart in front of our eyes sometime in the next few days.
	Given that Bill was a nice boy tonight, And given that his jaw muscles are working overtime, and given that the reversals, even the couple at the end that David got, are stunning, I can't wait to hear what David does with the rest of that speech and with the two other speeches tomorrow.
	The world, you know, the so-called real world, think that everything is hunky-dory except for this little nasty scandal.
	And because Bill is so useful if he plays ball, and it would be a whole new game to put Gore in and to No, this has to go away because for one thing we're going to be in the middle of a shooting war here in the next few days.
	And what I'm trying to do now is to use this computer program to possibly project when the damn war is going to begin.
	Given that we now know that they're on the Egyptian calendar, and that's a very long detailed conversation which we'll save for another night, we can use the program to predict events here on Earth that are Far apart from NASA.
	That's the stunning new news tonight.
	That speech was given on the same timetable that John Kennedy gave his speech in 1961 on May 25th in the well of the house when he announced the Apollo program itself.
	Absolutely.
	Beyond my understanding, Richard.
	You've got the program.
	Run it yourself, Art.
	The numbers cannot lie.
	That I can do.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Good morning.
	This is Tom and Reno.
	Hi, Tom.
	Richard, several months ago when you were on the show, we put forth a question to you about the possibility of Carilion photography being used on some of the Some of the stuff that comes into the atmosphere here, you know, as a possibility of seeing if the Van Flandern model fits, you know, if that was a large planet, if you could use the Corellian photography on any of that kind of stuff and get any other information.
	Well, as I understand it, Corellian photography requires you have a sample.
	In a lab, in an electrostatic setup, with a photograph, and you're basically looking for unseen emanations beyond the visible spectrum, which are triggered by the process of the sample in the lab in the experimental setup that you created.
	You can't do Carilion photography with remote sensing.
	In other words, you can't look with a gadget at a planet and find out anything beyond the electromagnetic spectrum that we understand.
	So that is limited to having a physical sample to work with, to play with.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hello, people.
	This is Steve from South Dakota.
	Hi there.
	Morning, Steve.
	Hi, Richard.
	I just called to give a comment, and then I have a question.
	I want to say, first of all, bravo to the Enterprise mission.
	Richard and the Enterprise mission deserve maximum support for the work that they've
	done on the Mars and the Cydonia work.
	I follow the politics and the data very, very closely and I've seen that Richard since 1983
	and his crew have worked very, very hard to get to the truth and I applaud the work.
	The truth is there and I believe that Richard has done more for bringing all of this data
	to the public more than anybody has.
	Richard I've talked to you about this before.
	I was listening to Bill Harwood of CBS.
	He's a CBS science correspondent.
	Right.
	I think I heard you in one of the air-to-ground interviews with the astronauts a couple days ago.
	Right.
	On the 5th of January, he was discussing Prospector and the reasons that there are no cameras aboard, stating the reason was because You know, Lunar Orbiter and Apollo had already gotten all the data, and this mission was prioritized for different reasons.
	It seems to me that a $63 million mission should have a damn camera.
	At a 60 mile projected orbital altitude, they'd be able to get some remarkable pictures.
	Well, this is like tea leaf reading.
	This reminds me of when the CIA used to try to predict what the Kremlin was going to do back during the good old days of the Cold War.
	of the mission going down to about six miles.
	Why do you think that they have a camera there?
	Well, you know, this is like tea leaf reading.
	This reminds me of when the CIA used to try to predict what the Kremlin was going
	to do back during the good old days of the Cold War.
	The simple answer is that cameras and images really produce tremendous bandwidth problems.
	And bandwidth and processing images translates to a lot of money that they don't have.
	And the stated objective here was to get the geophysical data from the neutron, you know, information, the gamma ray information, the composition, to look for the water, to look for, you know, minerals and unusual Distribution of materials on the moon's surface and that the camera data that you had from Clementine, the mission, the DOD mission that went up in 94, had given us 2 million images.
	So why would you be redundant with a NASA mission which would have another camera to take more images because things don't change on the moon?
	I mean, the rate of change on the moon is very, very, very small and has not changed between 94 and 98.
	Uh, that's the common sense approach, okay?
	The more interesting arcane interpretation is that you had a DOD mission which falls under security and black budgets, with two million pictures, all the high-res pictures of which we've never seen, and with the open NASA mission under the Space Act, which ostensibly is supposed to make it, you know, non-classified and available to anybody, You wouldn't put a camera on that because then anybody could look at those pictures and might find things they weren't supposed to find.
	So by segregating the two missions, what you do in the behind closed doors is match the two data sets.
	You take the data from Prospector, which shows you where all the good stuff is, the minerals and the composition, and you match it with the secret maps made from the high-res pictures from Clementine, and the guys in the back room say, Wally, Sally, look at that city down there, and look what it's made of, and there's the titanium, and there's where the water is, and there's what... that kind of thing.
	Now, we're going to try to do that, because what NASA's done on their website, up at Ames, is to put live data from Prospector.
	The gamma ray readouts and the neutron readouts and the reflectometer readouts and all that.
	They will not let you download this data.
	One of our guys the other day called them, or emailed them, and said, why don't you allow downloading?
	And they said, well, we don't want the public to have too much control over this data.
	A bizarre statement from the webmaster at NASA Ames.
	But there are ways to do screen capture.
	And I would heartily recommend to folks who are listening to us tonight, For God's sake, get a dedicated computer, get a read-write CD-ROM, set up your program so you do a screen capture, and every 20 seconds, as this data's coming in from Prospector, download and save the data, and then make a copy and send it to us.
	Because we don't have the wherewithal, because we're up to our eyebrows in these legal problems, we don't have the two grand that it would require to do a dedicated system.
	That's how we've been backed into a corner.
	We're not quite at the half-million level, Mark, like poor David tonight.
	But we're having our own legal problems, and we could use some help on this, and we ought to diversify and democratize this anyway.
	The point of fact is that it's all irrelevant if we've been quarantined.
	If NASA really is calling a shuttering halt to any plans to go beyond low Earth orbit with men, then what the heck are we doing up there?
	Why is John Glenn going to go up and risk his life?
	Why is Bill Clinton painting this expansive picture about a space station, which is going to basically go around and around and around and around and do nothing?
	When the solar system beckons, and we are basically killing all means of going out there and doing anything beyond what we've been doing for 30 years here at Earth.
	Indeed.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Good morning, gentlemen.
	This is Curtis from Lakewood.
	Yes, sir.
	This might be low, of course, but I was curious what the meanings on the Mars rover, the swastika, and the skull and crossbones mean.
	Well, see what we need to do is a show where we basically do the politics that we figured out from the Pathfinder.
	And I would prefer not to get into that tonight because it's so deep and so complex and we're in the process of assimilating our data.
	We've had people, as you know, in the archives looking at NASA history and the history of what happened after World War II.
	And the formations and the creation of JPL.
	It goes back to a lot of what Jim Morris said yesterday as well.
	Yes, absolutely.
	And Jim and I are now comparing notes.
	We have found that we have come to some stunningly correlating conclusions by completely separate doorways, which is when you know you're on to it.
	When independent research comes up with the same answer, but by different means, you know you're on to the process.
	So I would prefer to defer.
	I'm not ducking the question.
	It's a critically important question, but it would take us far afield.
	And we do not have time at 327 New Mexico time to get into it in any depth.
	All right.
	We don't have time to get anything into any depth on anything right now.
	We've got a pause here at the bottom of the hour.
	And, again, the story of the evening is we apparently are quarantined.
	No moon, no Mars, no manned missions.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Richard, again, with respect to the quarantine, if we have been, in effect, shooting at these things out there, wouldn't that justify an effective quarantine?
	Well, but remember, we've got video that goes back to 1991.
	The STS-48 video.
	Yes.
	Which is on, you know, the end of my UN briefing.
	One of the videos that we, you know, offer through our website.
	And if we had a serious problem, in other words, we're dealing with hostile aliens as some have, you know, tried to get us to imagine.
	Yes.
	You'd imagine that it would have been dangerous up there, at least beginning in September of 1991.
	This is January of 1998.
	And as far as I know, every shuttle mission that's gone up has come down in one piece.
	There's also, if you look at the STS-80 footage, which, by the way, you have, and I would strongly recommend that when you get some rest tomorrow, you rack it up and you run it down to the end.
	You know I've seen it all.
	Yeah, well, you have your own copy there.
	Run it down to the end where those funny things make the triangles over the horizon.
	Right.
	And remember the flash.
	There's a flash on the screen, on the camera.
	Unforgettable.
	Identical to the flash on STS-48.
	Correct.
	One second, one and a half seconds later.
	Slow it down.
	Do it frame by frame.
	You will see something at very high velocity enter the Earth's atmosphere Tangential, meaning going away from the shuttle.
	1,500 miles away.
	Moving at roughly 1,000 miles per second, which is the same velocity of the weapons we saw being deployed on STS-48.
	That's right.
	So we have a consistency.
	What's astonishing, if we're dealing with a real war upstairs, is that the guys who are firing the weapon missed their targets by 40 miles.
	How do we know it's 40 miles?
	Because if you look at the airglow layer, that's about 40 miles above the actual horizon of the Earth.
	Right.
	That's the scale for those pictures.
	Look at those triangles, those little dots, which are really spacecraft zipping around under electrogravitic drive.
	Somebody's spacecraft.
	Ours, theirs, who knows.
	And the shot, the weapon that's fired at them, misses them By one airglow layer width, about 40 miles at 1,500 miles distance.
	Now, I don't care how bad shots we are, you can't miss with this high-tech weaponry by 40 miles.
	So, I have been strongly inferring from this that we're dealing with a sham, with a fake.
	Or a shot across the bow.
	Possibly, but remember this is 1996.
	In December, when we get the STS-80 video, and we get very similar shots that were right aimed at the darn things in 1991, so it's kind of late in the game to be shooting across the bow.
	Well, it is, but I'm just trying to imagine any reason for an effective quarantine.
	Well, I don't think it has to do with spaceships.
	I think it has to do with knowledge, data.
	Remember, what has to be preserved here at all costs is the status quo.
	Human beings, homo sapiens, in the Vox Populi, in the democratic mold, cannot be allowed to know that its future and its past are not what it's been told it is.
	So it's not that it's dangerous up there, in this model, it's that the knowledge is dangerous, the information is dangerous.
	The way I see it, for the last 30 years, there was a very tiny inner crowd that controlled this information.
	From the Lunar Orbiters and the Surveyors and, uh, probably Apollo.
	One of those key people who's no longer with us is Gene Shoemaker.
	Oh, yes.
	I knew Gene very well.
	Gene was a good guy, alright?
	I, I cannot, absolutely will not believe that Gene was part of the dark side, if you want to put a dark side on this.
	But I think that good guys can be spun.
	I mean, if, if you present good guys with an option, then it's either Keep your counsel, keep the secrets, or horrible things will befall the human race.
	Most good guys will go along with the cover-up to preserve the human race, right?
	I would think so.
	Yeah.
	And they're gonna do it for the right reasons.
	But eventually, after 10, 20, 30 years, and nothing bad is happening, maybe some of these good guys get to the point where Hey, wait a minute.
	We were told this and, you know, it's now decades later and this hasn't happened.
	And I think we're beginning to see from a lot of sources, Greer and some of our sources and Bassett's activities and others, that the cover-up is falling apart from within.
	If that's true, then the next tier, the next level, the guys that thought the game was going one way, And they're now beginning to find that it's going another way.
	They would want to get their own information.
	So you'd have this second tier of NASA that would basically want to go back and find out for themselves.
	They're not going to trust us, right?
	Right.
	I mean, look at all the horrible propaganda directed against our activities.
	But at least we sensitized, if this model is correct, the inner circle so they would go and get the missions funded to go and find out the ground truth.
	Well, what's astonishing is that in the heyday of NASA's renaissance, when all the indicators should be that it's up and out and away, suddenly there's this screeching halt.
	This tells me, and it should tell any thinking person, that there's something really bizarre going on between the words and the music.
	There's a gap here.
	And the gap has got to be that the honest folks now, the next tier, has found out, surprise, surprise, there's stuff out there And we can't tell everybody else.
	All right.
	First time caller on the line, your turn with Richard Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Oh, wait a minute.
	I didn't press a button.
	First time caller on the line, now you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Great.
	I'll remain anonymous in Virginia.
	Providence had me turn you on my FM stereo at 2.30 in the morning Eastern Standard Time, and I've been glued to it ever since.
	I'm young.
	I was introduced to all this, Molinar's work, about three years ago.
	And the way I understand it is that the publishing of that book with P.A.
	Trial, forgive me if I get any of these names wrong, effectively ruined his life.
	I don't know if you know what Greg Molinar does these days.
	Well, I know that he left Goddard.
	He went back to Minnesota.
	I think his dad had a computer firm and I've lost track of him myself.
	I'll leave all that out of it because it's personal.
	I have close relations with a number of the Molinars.
	I'm just wondering, what do you think this is going to do to these people's lives?
	They say that they're going to go ahead and credit it to, will it be the PHO in the group, or just him?
	And obviously he's been able to fare well out of this, but like I said, from the way I understand it, and from a number of outsiders' point of view, this whole thing ruined Greg's life, and I don't know about the other three guys that worked on the project with him.
	My honest answer is I do not know.
	Up until this news story from Gannett came in today, I had at least an optimistic chance that in fact now that the worm was going to turn, and that NASA was going to try in its inimitable fashion to yell, ...bring us partial disclosure, but control it tightly by nominating DiPietro as their spokesperson.
	And, you know, I can live with that, because we've got to know.
	The problem now is we've got this contradictory piece of data, which basically is, this gentleman says, I am directing the centers effective immediately to issue termination notices for all contractual vehicles associated with beyond-Earth-orbit activities, such as human, lunar, or Mars exploration.
	That is such a scary, fearful tone.
	It's like we are ducking down with our tail between our legs, we're coming home, and we're not going to peep our head out from under this rock until something blows over.
	This does not bode well for disclosure.
	No, it does not.
	Wildcard Line, your turn with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hello, Ark.
	This is Dan in Virginia.
	Hi, Richard.
	Hi there.
	There's three things that I would like you to help me tie together.
	My first premise is that we're going to war, possibly, not against Saddam, but there's underground bases there that we may be after is my main premise, and I wanted to ask you about that.
	And then secondly, you've got the prophecies that refer to Babylon, which is Iraq in the current term.
	Yes.
	And then thirdly, the desert.
	That President Clinton referred to in the reverse speech.
	The desert will answer you.
	Yeah, I think your intuition is onto something here.
	I am loathe to lay out a specific scenario because, frankly, I don't know what the scenario is.
	I only know, given the data sets we have, the conversions between our work with the computer, with the archive search, with some of the leaks that we've had from NASA people over the last several months, And David Oates' work on the reversals, which is stunningly correlative, and yet we've done double blind so that we're not telling each other what we're finding, that it's not as advertised.
	And one of the most important things is that Bill Clinton is fully in the loop and fully aware that it's much bigger than anybody would dare imagine.
	And all night tonight, as he's giving that speech, his mind is working furiously on things that had no business being in that speech.
	And that does not bode well for living things, unfortunately.
	Ease to the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hello?
	Hello.
	Hello, Mr. Bell.
	Mr. Hoagland.
	Yes, sir.
	I was wondering, have you ever read the book The Gods of Eden by William Bromley?
	Yes, I have.
	Yes.
	Well, it sounds like some of that might be influential in what you're discussing tonight.
	Also, another thing about the hostility factor supposedly involved with extraterrestrials.
	The fact of the matter is, if you read the book Flying Saucers are Hostile by Brad Steiger and John Weidenauer, also Confrontations by Jacques Vallee, people have been, and still are, being shot by those things.
	And even dying from apparently, like, radiation poisoning effects.
	Well, the thing that impresses me about the shuttle video, which of course is actual, first-hand information that was beamed down to us live, somebody leaked it, they wanted us to see it, is that, you know, there's somebody shooting at these things, and the things are not shooting back.
	This, to me, is extremely important, because that and the missed distances indicate to me That we're seeing almost a staged setup.
	We're being manipulated by imagery.
	You know, Gene Roddenberry once said to me, Dick, if it's real, it'll be on television.
	And it's a very useful rule of thumb.
	The master manipulators.
	I remember Reagan's chief guy for television.
	I forget his name.
	You remember, Art?
	He always was staging the perfect photo op.
	Oh, yes.
	Because images now are everything.
	Well, the images coming out of NASA are of a war going on upstairs.
	When I heard David or Andy Thomas couldn't fit the Russian space suit, and it was such an absurd excuse after all that money to get there and find the damn suit doesn't fit, I realized that someone was desperately trying to communicate to a lot of people in the NASA loop that there's something really wrong and we're going to kind of wait and see how this falls.
	And then it fell in the direction that they wanted, and he could stay.
	And it was only a few hours from the warning to the, OK, we fixed it.
	We're dealing with codes here.
	We're dealing with layers of deception.
	We're dealing with security at various layers.
	People in the know, people more in the know, people all in the know.
	I mean, this is a puzzle palace par excellence.
	And the only thing I can say definitively tonight is that I have finally resolved in my own mind whether Bill Clinton is a mindless dupe or is in charge and involved and engaged
	in what's really going on and the answer is he's in charge and engaged and
	watch him really closely and let's tape everything that happens because the
	truth is not only out there but it's in reverse
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on there with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Thank you, Art.
	This is Bob in KEX Country.
	Yes, sir.
	Portland.
	Yeah, Richard.
	Yes, sir.
	I've seen some anti-gravity vehicles, and I even talked to Tom Bearden about this a little bit last year.
	What do you think that possibly they're continuing their exploration with black anti-gravity vehicles and saving their money on the The white stuff that the rest of us see.
	Basically, yeah.
	I mean, it's now quite obvious to me, anyway, that beginning certainly in the last 10 years and probably going back maybe 30 years, that we've had two parallel space programs.
	We've had the NASA program with all the visibility and all the fanfare.
	And then we had the real program.
	And never the twain shall meet.
	And the usefulness of the fake program, the program with rockets and shuttles and flame and all that, which is primitive compared to electrogavetics, its usefulness is over.
	And I go back to David's reversals of Savage and Ballard, when if you call those up and look at them on David's website, you'll see these NASA guys We're not happy campers.
	They're basically talking about the slow destruction of NASA, and they... What was the phrase they used?
	They kill us slowly, it's awful, or something like that?
	Something like that, yes.
	I mean, it's... My heart goes out to Holyfield because they believed in the dream like we all did, and we've all been used in the service to something which is dark and mysterious and not only up and up, And unless we get it out in the light, I mean, we're being manipulated into things here that are going to result in an awful lot of people dying at some point.
	And the question is, for what reason?
	That's right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland, hello.
	Hi, Richard?
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, I was wondering, the caller at the bottom of the hour mentioned the swastika and the skull and bones.
	When people do independent research, do they go into, and this may sound kind of weird, Occultic documents and things like that and ritual magic and... Well, a lot of ritual, that's for sure.
	Well, yeah.
	I mean, the short answer is yes.
	You know, my rule of thumb, you know, 15 years ago was I was going to follow this wherever the data led.
	And it's gone now.
	Politically, it's a pretty arcane and strange places, and a lot of people are very uncomfortable With following us, looking into these dark corners.
	And I must say very resolutely that one of the things that we're discovering, which I'm not comfortable with, but I'm going to follow it wherever it leads, is what I call the Nazi connection.
	It is there, it is bona fide, it is documentable, and it is correlated with several independent sources.
	But, because it is such a contentious and potentially explosive subject, I want to be absolutely certain that we can document the things that I want to say and so beyond what is on the web, which is the data direct from Mars, and beyond what I have alluded to in the form of occult and ritualistic practices that go back to the
	Most ancient Egyptian cosmology imaginable, and the obvious connections to some of the SS activities at the end of World War II that we found out about, I really don't think tonight, because we can't document it, there's no time, I want to go beyond that.
	But, Art, willing, we will in the not-too-distant future.
	Well, Jim Mars, Randolph Winters, many, many others have made exactly the same connection that you're making.
	The interesting thing about Mars, we talked this afternoon, he said, you know, Dick, Because I explained to him at some length, you know, the kind of computer way we're doing this.
	He said, you and I have come to the same conclusion from totally separate directions.
	That's right.
	And in fact, we're so interested in this independent correlation that we're going to very carefully and vigorously pursue it in the coming days.
	All right.
	Not a lot of time.
	Wes to the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning, Richard.
	Can barely hear you, sir.
	Okay.
	I was wondering, Richard, do you know how close any of the Apollo missions flew to any of the structures on the Moon?
	And another question is, have you heard of any good sales at the Old Navy store?
	Oh, some might, Art.
	We've got to close the gap in the loop on Old Navy.
	All right?
	There is so much, not enough time to get into the details.
	To answer your question on Apollo, well Apollo 14 we know landed within 100 feet of the structures and I will bet on a stack of Bibles that Ed Mitchell and Alan Shepard physically went and explored in their so-called exploration of Cone Crater.
	They actually went inside and brought some very important things home.
	Now the question of course That everyone needs to address is why does Ed Mitchell not remember this?
	Well?
	The answer?
	Well, I don't have an answer.
	That is a question.
	Because I am coming to the conclusion that when Ed Mitchell says he doesn't, he doesn't, did not see anything, that he does not remember seeing anything.
	But remember, this is the same astronaut who in his own book He does not remember what it felt like to explore the moon.
	It's true.
	None of the emotions, none of the reactions of the time, none of it sunk in and he remembers absolutely nothing of the experience.
	Which should raise red flags all over the place.
	All right, Richard.
	I'm afraid that's it for tonight.
	We will pick up on this at the point of your choice.
	It seems like from any one of a hundred different places, we could pick up and just run.
	That's what a multidisciplinary investigation is all about.
	All right.
	Quarantine for now, as we are.
	I want to thank you, and you take care.
	Get a little bit of rest.
	We'll do it again soon, my friend.
	Thanks, everyone, and good night.
	Good night.
	From the high desert, the place that will answer, good night all.

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