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Jan. 12, 1998 - Art Bell

02:55:06

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Peter Gorman - The War on Drugs

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unidentified		Welcome to Art Bell Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from January 12th, 1998.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be across all these many time zones, stretching from the Hawaiian into Easton Islands in the west, eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, north all the way to the Pole.
		This is Coast Coast AM.
		I'm Art Bell.
		And yes, back from the dead, or nearly dead, I have had the flu, a very serious version of the flu that kept me with temperatures varying up to around 102 for several days.
		So, you're going to have to bear with me and my voice this morning.
		I'm a little bit better, as you can tell.
		I mean, I'm on the air, right?
		But Ramona now has the flu, and for her, it is a far more serious situation because she has asthma, and she also is having a current full-blown asthmatic attack.
		So we're monitoring that as the night progresses.
		There is breaking news.
		A Japanese gunman has entered the Tokyo Stock Exchange and has taken hostages.
		Apparently, for a short time, they halted trading and then began trading again.
		They are trading currently, I believe.
		One cannot but mention the incredible victory of the Packers over the 49ers, where the rain came down so hard today that the sky cried for the 49ers.
		Sorry about that to all of you who sent me faxes about this.
		Now, having said all that and looking forward to the Packers doing it again, I've got a guest coming on in a moment, Peter Gorman, who is editor-in-chief of High Times magazine Counterculture, remember?
		Yeah, High Times is still out there, as a matter of fact.
		And so we'll talk to Peter Gorman, who is really much more than High Times.
		You'll find out all about that.
		First, updating the story that we broke at the top of last hour.
		Mount Etna in Sicily would appear to be beginning to erupt.
		Now, in doing research trying to find out about this, I got to a site that has live cam shots of Mount Etna.
		And we have logged on my website now a whole series of those shots from today, earlier today, into the nighttime.
		Some of the shots where you can see lava going straight into the air and coming down on three sides of Aetna.
		It's incredible.
		The daytime photographs taken earlier in the day, in sometime zones yesterday, show the lava flowing down three sides of the mountain.
		This just cleared the wire from the Washington Post.
		Jakarta, Indonesia.
		Hot glowing lava has now been spotted on top of a volcano in central Java, promoting authorities to warn nearby residents Friday, they may have to evacuate quickly.
		So there you go.
		Now we've got news of one on the other side in Indonesia.
unidentified		Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM, has a new name, Coast Insider.
		You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price.
		The package includes podcasting, which automatically downloads shows for you, and the iPhone app.
		You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
		That's over a thousand shows for you to collect and enjoy.
		If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
		Visit CoastTofCoastAM.com to sign up.
		Now we take you back to the night of January 12th, 1998, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Art Bell Now Peter Gorman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Peter began studying the Amazon in 1984 when he made his first trip to Peru's jungles.
		Since that time, he's made nearly two dozen additional trips to the Amazon, as well as numerous trips to the jungles of Mexico, India's rainforest, and the denuded former scrub jungles of southern India, where he worked extensively with noted herpetologist, environmentalist Romulus Whitaker.
		During those same years, Mr. Gorman has studied several at-risk tribal cultures firsthand, most extensively in Peru and India.
		He is the editor-in-chief of High Times magazine, the voice of the counterculture since you were probably a baby.
		He's got lots of other editorial clients that you would know, the Boston Globe, New York Times, Omni, Panorama, Penthouse, Playboy, Spy, just on and on and on and on.
		He is a very, very interesting guy.
		Somebody sent me a thoughts and begged me to have him on because he was so interesting.
		And I surely do remember High Times very well.
		I speak of it almost as though it was gone.
		It is not.
		It is still very much alive.
		Peter, welcome to the program.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		All right.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Thanks a lot for having me on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, Peter?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Middle of New York City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		New York City.
		Oh, my.
		So, all right.
		You're in WABC country.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thanks for staying up late.
		I appreciate it.
		I'm curious, let us begin by talking about High Times magazine.
		It's been around a long time.
		What is High Times today?
		How is it different than it was when I was young?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, in fact, we're entering our 24th year.
		And how is it different?
		Let's say in 1974, when the magazine was founded, I think High Times represented the voice of the people who were kind of, at that point, the residual voices for civil rights, women's rights, gay rights, anti-war sentiments, as well as those who were pro-marijuana and pro-mind expansion.
		Some of those issues are no longer at the fore today, but they remain part of what we consider the legacy of the counterculture, or at least we hope that we had some effect in getting changes made in some of those issues.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that a fair statement?
		The legacy, you said, of the counterculture.
		Does that mean it's over?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		No.
		But I did, you know, I was recently talking to somebody.
		I was downstairs.
		There's a place where I played darts with my beautiful wife.
		And it was a fellow who was studying for his police test in New York.
		And he happened to overhear something that somebody said.
		And he made a comment, and I made a comment back, and he said, well, you know, as far as I'm concerned, people who smoke pot never did anything.
		They're worthless, they're useless.
		They sit around by the TV and they've never done anything that helps the world.
		And coming from a family of New York City cops and almost having been one myself, I took offense and I turned around and I said, you know, without the counterculture, the free speech movement doesn't really get underway.
		Without the counterculture, the Martin Luther King's civil rights movement gets stalled.
		Without the counterculture, you don't have women's rights.
		You don't have an anti-war movement.
		You don't have gay rights.
		You don't have any of the rights that we now take for granted in this country.
		We never had them.
		They're just 30 years old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So whether you agree or disagree on those issues, without those issues, or if those issues were successfully non-negotiable in any way at all, we wouldn't be free.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, if you think back 30 years, I think you can really see that we've made gigantic strides.
		Were we ultimately 100% successful?
		That's debatable.
		In fact, I think in most cases, no, we're still, it takes a long time to implement social change.
		But I think that were strides made?
		Is there an awareness towards these subjects?
		Absolutely.
		And I think a lot of that grows out of the counterculture.
		And I think that the base of the counterculture was probably, I mean, the one thread that holds it all together might have been the use of cannabis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me stop you and ask you about cannabis.
		It's a great subject.
		Arizona, California passed some pretty liberal laws here recently.
		Whether or not they're going to actually come to fruition, I guess we're going to have to wait for the courts to decide.
		But there's a drug war, Peter.
		Are we winning it?
unidentified		Well, who's weak?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		What side are you on?
		Well, are we more liberal?
		No, for me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I mean, look, except that generically, we as in the people represented, supposed to be represented by the American government.
		The American government has a drug war going on.
		So kind of a collective we.
		Is the government winning or losing the drug war?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		The government is losing the drug war unless you're a conspiracy buff, in which case it's going along just fine.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, you know, consider that at the moment we've got 1.7 edging towards 1.8 million Americans in jail at any given time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Record number.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Roughly 60% in for nonviolent drug crimes.
		You know, if the government has no use for a certain segment of the population, and in this case mostly poor whites or uneducated whites and uneducated inner city blacks, the government might say, we're doing great.
		We've got them off the streets.
		And that's what we wanted.
		So capitalism could charge ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but we're also discharging violent criminals out the back door to keep these people in jail.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Absolutely.
		You know, from the point of view of high times, speaking for myself and probably speaking for the magazine, we don't care if you smoke marijuana.
		We don't encourage you to smoke marijuana.
		It doesn't really matter to us.
		But the idea that you might do 5, 10, or 200 years in jail for smoking marijuana, depending on what state you're in, is sort of beyond and beyond.
		This is not a social program.
		We don't see who's being aided by this.
		So from our point of view, the government, while it's losing because of the record numbers of people who are dissenting from the government's position, on the other hand, we also recognize that record numbers of us are serving time, who shouldn't be serving time, people who are doing time only for the crime of smoking cannabis, not for any other criminal activity associated with drugs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I come from a state, Nevada, that's where I am now, where it is a felony, very serious crime.
		It is a felony.
		In most states now, it is some form of misdemeanor.
		But here it is a felony.
		And in many states, there are required minimum sentences you get with certain amounts of marijuana that are going to put you in jail, mandatory minimums, and they're going to keep you there while other violent types come and go.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		There's No question about it.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we've got in Oklahoma, while we consider Nevada to be one of the bad states, and while we consider a state like Rhode Island, most people consider it fairly East Coast, liberal, educated, nonetheless, a state like Rhode Island has a zero to 30 years for growing one cannabis plant.
unidentified		My God.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Which means 99% of the people are getting zero time.
		But if you happen to be somebody who has a personal problem with the local prosecutor, the local sheriff, if you were a kid and you used to throw snowballs at the local judge's house and now you grow up and you're growing marijuana, then goodbye.
		They can nail you for 30 years.
		But near Nevada, obviously, is Oklahoma.
		And Oklahoma is a state.
		We had a poor fellow, Jimmy Montgomery, about a year and a half ago, paraplegic with a disorder that was a bone tunneling disorder, costing him bone every month out of his body.
		Got life plus 16 for 40 grams of marijuana, an ounce and a half.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good Lord.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		And he wasn't selling it.
		He was actually out driving his car when some snitch turned over and said, well, I think he's got it.
		And when they went to his house, the guy couldn't identify his house.
		But nonetheless, they finally narrowed it down by looking at mailboxes.
		And when they entered the house, yeah, there was 42 grams of pot, about, you know, depending on how good the quality was, maybe $100 to $200 worth of pot.
		And they nailed him for life plus $16.
		And a fellow named Will Foster, who's using it for medical purposes, six months ago got 93 years on a first, this is a fellow who'd never been arrested before.
		Nothing.
		He might have had a traffic ticket or two.
		But 93 years went a snitch who was buying his own freedom by turning in people.
		In Oklahoma, there's a silly program that if you're a felon and you turn in six people, you walk free.
		And so Will Foster was one of the six.
		He swore Will Foster had an amphetamine lab in his basement and was wholesaling methamphetamine.
		And the police, of course, you know, there was a $10 buy operation.
		The police trusted the informant that, oh, wow, you really, you left the car and you came back half an hour later and you don't have the $10, you know.
		And poor Will Foster was found not with any methamphetamine, no methamphetamine lamp, but a small marijuana garden the size of your kitchen table, which they announced was worth $2 million, probably was worth $250, and nailed it for 93 years.
		So it's still going on.
		I mean, there are tens of thousands of guys and women out there smoking pot, buying pot, selling pot, who are doing legitimately 5, 10, 20, and 93 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		I think it's insane.
		And Peter, I want to ask about, you know, everybody kind of thought the first Democrat, first liberal that would get elected, i.e.
		Bill Clinton, the pot laws would quickly, the federal pot laws would quickly change.
		And Bill Clinton got in office, gave his famous statement about not inhaling, having tried it but didn't inhale, got himself in a lot of political trouble, then got in a lot more political trouble, had no more political capital, could have done something about pot but didn't, and now obviously will not.
		So what hope is there?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that was, boy, Bill Clinton.
		I mean, at the risk of getting audited tomorrow, what a gutless bum on this issue.
		You know, plenty of people in the marijuana movement had spoken to him, and I had spoken to several people who would later prove to be his aides and right-hand men, and it was a done deal.
		They were not necessarily going to legalize Pot, but it was going to be discussed.
		That much we were promised.
		And in fact, the moment that he waffled and said, I didn't inhale, any credibility on the issue he had whatsoever.
		Now, we're talking about, this remains an administration in which Donna Shalala, head of health and human resources, I mean, you know, HHS, admits to having smoked pot.
		Newt Gingrich smokes pot.
		Al Gore admits to having smoked pot for several years, and Bill Clinton admits to having at least tried it.
		So, right, you know, on the right and the left, everybody's tried pot who's connected with this administration currently.
		But waffling was the one cardinal sin that could have been committed by someone like this because it left him no out.
		And I think at the moment the only political party that can do any good for easing the marijuana laws is going to have to be extreme right wing.
		I just think that Gingrich could pull it off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's really strange, isn't it?
		You're absolutely right.
		The person who could really do it would probably be Gingrich or somebody on the far right.
		It would take somebody like that because anybody on the left is going to be immediately crucified by the right.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and if Al Gore ends up being the presidential timber for 2000, even though he's admitted that he did it and admitted that he enjoyed it for years, which doesn't mean he did it frequently, but over a period of time, he can't have any credibility on the issue.
unidentified		It's too late.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		So I think we're going to be stuck.
		And Gingrich's latest proclamation is either legalize it or let's make a rule that says if you import drugs, sell drugs, buy drugs, use drugs, we're going to cut your head off.
		So that's a tough place to look for hope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		It is indeed.
		I wonder, really pressed on the issue which he would prefer to do.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I tell you the truth.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I think that you're certainly old enough to remember the marches in Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Both for civil rights and then for the anti-war movement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember all of them.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I was a kid for the anti-war movement marches and certainly for the civil rights stuff, okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you know, I was in Vietnam.
unidentified		Okay.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I salute you.
		You know, way to go.
		It was a tough place to be, I'm sure.
unidentified		It wasn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hard way to go.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I had a brother who was in Vietnam.
		And initially, when he went over, he sent letters back talking about, well, you know, I'm doing a body bag count, and I'm finding a little heroin in some of these bags and drugs and stuff.
		And, you know, I want to turn these guys in because it's criminal.
		And six months later, he was saying, this is such a stinky war.
		I won't even look in the body bags anymore.
		I hope they're all filled with heroin.
		I hope everybody gets anything they want out of this because, you know, we're certainly not trying to win it.
		We're just trying to execute as many of these American kids as we can.
		So whatever they can get out with, by all means, don't hold him to task for that.
		That's my recollection of it.
		I think when I first went to Washington, probably 67, I think all the TV cameras were able to point at us and say, scruffy hippies, smoking dope, looking like chickens.
		Now, we weren't.
		I think that the vast majority of us were utterly disappointed we couldn't morally go to Vietnam, right?
		Because we grew up wanting to be green berets, but they didn't give us Hitler.
		They gave us Vietnam.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear you.
		I hear you.
		They gave us Vietnam as an accurate assessment as well.
		Peter, hold on.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		We'll be right back.
		All right?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		All righty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Relax.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Peter Gorman, editor of High Times magazine, is my guest.
		Don't touch that dial.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere inside.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from January 12th, 1998.
		Lead me sip away.
		I can't live.
		I can't say goodbye without your love.
		Oh, baby, don't leave me away.
		I can't accept.
		I sure live your tender kiss.
		Don't leave me this away.
		Baby, a heart of full love and desire for you.
		Now come down and do what you gotta do Ooh, and it's alright, it's coming on Oh, we gotta get my best with the fall.
		We gotta get right back to where we gotta go You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in Todd.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from January 12th, 1998.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I heard they played this song as it became clear the Packers were going to go back to the Super Bowl again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that true?
unidentified		Well, all I can say is, I told you so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if you don't think they're going to run over Denver like yesterday's newspaper...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Peter Gorman is our guest, and he'll be back in a moment.
unidentified		Peter Gorman You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
unidentified		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from January 12, 1998.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Music Once again, Peter Gorman, and we were talking about Vietnam.
		And Peter, you know, I said I was there.
		And I'll tell you the point of view of most people who were actually there.
		They thought the real criminals, frankly, were in Washington.
		And there were a series of criminals in Washington.
		And in my view, in the view of those who were there and saw a lot of their friends die, if you're going to fight a war, if you are going to start a war, which we did in Vietnam, we began that war.
		We started it.
		We provoked it.
		We faked our way into it.
		Once you get into a war, you don't fight a half-assed war, watching people die when you have the power to fight a full war and really kill the other guy, period.
		And so I can get real angry beginning to talk about that.
		But that's the point of view of somebody who was there, and I understand yours as well.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, it's funny.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		One of the things that occurred, Lyndon Johnson, when I was a kid, probably 13, 14 years old, decided that we were going to bomb North Vietnam.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sort of.
		Sort of.
		Some areas.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		We're going to go ahead and do that.
		And at the time, coming from a family of hawks, we all congratulated him mentally or congratulated each other as finally we're going to fight this war.
		But when he decided to leave Hanoi Harbor and the Ho Chi Minh Trail unbombed, even for a kid, and this is not, I mean, whether or not me or a couple of hundred million of us, I mean, a couple of million of us who would go to Washington periodically were cowards is an entirely different issue.
		But I think we lost our stomach for it, even as kids, saying, this is not a war.
		This is not a war.
		There are two ways North Vietnamese troops are getting armed.
		Ho Chi Minh Trail and the Gulf of Haipong Harbor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		And Hanoi Harbor.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		If you're not going to bomb those, you're not trying to win this war.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		If I could have strangled Johnson, I would have.
		I'm real serious.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, like the drug war, when we first, a lot of us and a lot of Vietnam vets came down and manned those lines marching Washington initially, people could look at long-haired, scruffy guys playing guitars, smoking marijuana and say, oh, you see, it's just cowards who don't want to go.
		But by the 4th or 5th March, moms were involved.
		And by the 6th or 7th, there were so many grandmas with signs that said, I am not permitting my grandson or my next grandson to die for your war, that the TV cameras couldn't avoid them.
		At that point, it was critical mass.
		Don't anger grandmas in this country.
		They swing the vote on everything.
		And I think the same thing would go with the drug war, as we, more and more, for instance, medical marijuana issue.
		As more and more people say, you know, I never smoked pot, but my grandson is dying of AIDS.
		He can't eat.
		As grandma gets on the picket line, the issue becomes reasonable to the American public.
		And politicians in this country, unfortunately, have a history of not being visionaries, primarily, but being reactionaries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, for example, in California, where they pass ballot initiatives, in other words, the voice of the people says, here's what we want it to be, and then they pass it.
		It's approved by the voter.
		That's where it stops, and the federal court system grabs it and says, oh, no, you don't.
		You guys don't know what you need or want.
		We're going to have to consider this and generally reject what the voters have done.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know what?
		You're right, but there is wonderful news on the horizon.
		I mean, absolutely wonderful.
		And if you want to break it, you can break it right here.
unidentified		Go ahead.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		If you like it.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		One of our writers, John Gekner, he's the former national director of NORMAL, the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know of it, yes.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Okay, they've been around since 1970.
unidentified		Yep.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, some years ago, John, about four years ago, John came to me and he said, Peter, there is new material on marijuana in the brain.
		How it works, what receptor sites are involved, what its mechanisms are.
		These are studies commissioned by the U.S. government.
		Do you want a story on it?
		Now, this is dull as dishwater for people who are not chemists.
		But, in his two-part study, he was able to show, using U.S. government data, that marijuana does not work along the same lines that the government claims addictive substances work, period.
		It does not affect the same areas of the brain.
		It does not affect serotonin, etc., etc.
		After that, he decided, well, you know, marijuana has been placed on Schedule I, which means it's got no medical use and it's got high potential for abuse.
		So he petitioned, essentially sued the federal government saying, on what grounds do you have high potential for abuse?
		On what scientific grounds?
		Well, normally this is a sort of lawsuit and petition that the federal government is allowed to toss down the wastebasket.
		Except in this case, as of two weeks ago, the DEA acknowledged we have no scientific grounds to place marijuana in the schedule.
		There is no scientific grounds based on new material from the U.S. government on which to say marijuana has a high potential for abuse.
		Therefore, we are tossing it back to Health and Human Services for a binding arbitration on where shall this indeed be placed.
		Shall it be legalized?
		And they've only got two years, essentially, to come up with an answer.
		And the DEA admitting that it has no scientific grounds to keep marijuana out of the hands of doctors and maybe not even out of the hands of ordinary adults is an amazing question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
		That's big news.
		I had not heard that.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm going down to Washington, D.C. tomorrow to meet with the New York Times about it, and with John Getman, who filed it, and with Michael Kennedy, who's the lawyer for Trans High Corporation, who is the legal end of this lawsuit, which is the apparent corporation for High Times.
		So now that it's been passed to HHS, well, the branch of HHS that reviews the scientific literature has already publicly for 10 or 12 years been very outspoken about marijuana does not belong on Schedule I. It simply doesn't.
		There is no reason for it being there except somebody's whim and we need legs on which to pin the drug war.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, that could eventually result in a complete change, a force, a change of attitude on the part of the federal government.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
		Wow.
		And it no doubt will.
		How much of a change is going to be on what HHS comes up with.
		But the DEA acknowledges, we've got no reason, of course, but the thing is this.
		We are dealing with a very entrenched system.
		The drug war and the fear generated by, I mean, you need fear to keep this drug war going.
		We've got billions and billions of dollars invested in this.
		We've got the largest prison industry anywhere in the world.
		It's the number one growth industry or close to the number one construction industry in the entire United States.
		We are exporting billions of dollars of prison-made goods, primarily to China.
		You know, we object, all of us liberals here and even conservatives say, you know, hey, Chinese prison labor, how dare they?
		Well, most people don't realize how many billions of dollars of goods are being sent to China by our prisoners.
		So to disentrench a system like this, to actually expose it to light, it's going to be difficult.
		And if marijuana prohibition ended, nobody would fund, you know, $14 billion federal dollars a year to stop, what, a million and a half heroin addicts.
		We would look at that reasonably and say, hey, this is a health problem.
		This is not a problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's where I was going.
		I have long been for the decriminalization or legalization of marijuana.
		Because it's logical, because I'm tired of lying to kids.
		You know, you tell a kid he's going to go crazy on marijuana, get hooked, fry his brain completely, whatever.
		He tries it and he says, lie, and then it makes it easier to go on to the next step and take that first snort or maybe even some heroin or PCB or some sort of amphetamine or who knows what.
		And so I thought, at the very least, marijuana ought to be separate.
		We ought to start telling the truth about marijuana, separate it from the other drugs.
		But then you're still left with the question about what you do with the much harder drugs.
		And, you know, I do know something about cocaine.
unidentified		Welcome to the club.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And crack.
		There are women who will sell their babies for crack.
		I mean, it is a really serious drug.
		What do you feel about that?
		I mean, once you separate marijuana from the rest.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		That's the thing.
		I mean, in my heart of hearts, I'm a parent, and I'm a parent of a 12-year-old, a 9-year-old, a baby.
		So, I mean, I've got a family, and I've got to deal with it as a real life issue.
		And I made a decision to just tell my kids the truth about what I felt, which was that marijuana is not a drug, shouldn't be considered a drug.
		It's a helpful plant.
		It's not for kids.
		There is a time and there is a place.
		And just like there's a time and a place for having a beer, a time and a place for looking at a football game or kissing a girl, you know, some things are just, let's save them for a while.
		And I mean, that kind of seems simplistic, but somehow dads try to work this out with their kids.
		I think this is the, in my heart of hearts, the real answer.
		We've got a law for anything you might do under the influence of drugs.
		If I don't feed my kids, it doesn't matter if I don't feed them because I spent the money on crack, or because I spent the money on pot, or because I'm bad at OTV, or because I blew it all, you know, flipping cards.
		The law says feed your damn kids.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, even if you're broke.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		We don't care why.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		The law says you either do it or we can haul your fanny into jail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And take the kids.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		If I steal from my friend or somebody I don't know, it doesn't matter if I stole because I needed heroin, because I was drunk and thought it was cool, or because I felt like it, or because I didn't like the guy.
		The law says you can't steal.
		So I think we've got laws in place for any and everything you might do under the influence of drugs.
		So why there are additional laws for the use of drugs is beyond me.
		We don't need them.
		We could use, in other words, we could, let's say nobody likes a junkie.
		As a rule, 90% of the junkies are tedious to be around, self-indulgent, and pretty boring.
		On the other hand, according to the federal government, 70% hold jobs.
		They absolutely work.
		And that's, you know, it's in subways all over New York City.
		70% of the people who are using drugs are working.
		Are they helping your workforce?
		Well, you know what?
		If you include everybody in this country, that's a whole lot better than the rest of the populace.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		But I've heard even our conservatives, and I don't have to name them, have come out for the legalization of drugs, but I've got one problem with it.
		If crack and heroin and so forth were readily available at a good price, a cheap price, which they would be once they were legalized, I simply can't imagine the population of junkies and cokeheads not doubling, tripling, quadrupling, people partying on weekly.
		You know, it begins with a party on the weekend since it's illegal and it's obtainable and it'd be great at parties and then a whole bunch of people, a whole bunch of people are going to get hooked.
		Where is the answer for that one?
		I mean, you and I both know it will happen.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
		I think there might be two things involved here.
		One, should we look at the medicalization of substances with a high potential for abuse?
		Medicalization as in what Switzerland does, which is that you register as someone who uses heroin and go to a pharmacy to get your heroin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I've got a hole in that one.
		I've thought of that one too.
		I'd have that presented to me.
		Problem.
		You work for High Times.
		As a matter of fact, you're editor-in-chief of High Times.
		Yeah, so no problem for you.
		But for the average executive, say, in New York City, where you are, who might get hooked on heroin, to go down and register as a heroin user is not going to be an option because it's going to get out.
		Somehow, you and I both know it's going to get out.
		So instead of taking that chance, he's going to turn to the black market.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that fellow at the moment, do you think anyone in America would need to spend more than an hour or two, I'll admit a couple of hours, but more than an hour or two acquiring any drug they felt like?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I absolutely agree.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		They are all within two hours, say, of someone who, for instance, maybe I've got sisters and they don't even know what a drug looks like.
		You know what I mean?
		So it's not two hours for them because they wouldn't even know what the heck to do.
		But for somebody who has some experience, if it's within a couple of hours, then we've got to say, excuse me, 30 years, the largest criminal justice system ever created on the planet.
		And these drugs are cheaper and more readily available now than they were 30 years ago.
unidentified		What we're doing doesn't work at all.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Anything has to be at least an attempt at an improvement.
		If it were medicalization.
		What if, you know, 25 years ago, heroin was as high as $700 for a gram of something fairly pure.
		20 years ago, in fact, probably 22 years ago, the last time I ever took a snort of cocaine, and I did, you know, indulge myself to the point where I had a little problem, or you know, which cost me a wife and money and everything I had.
		But 20 years ago, my last snort, it was still $130, $140 a gram.
		Do you know what that costs now, 30 years later?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I really don't.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		$25 a gram.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're kidding.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		We are down by 70%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The street price of cocaine is $25 a gram.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		New York City, roughly 20, 25%, according to New York City police, which is phenomenally high percentage.
		It's $25 in a clinic.
		If you know somebody, it's $15.
		It used to be $125 for that same gram.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's incredible.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		This is after hundreds of billions of dollars.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		This is with nearly 2 million of us sitting in jail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My God, that's incredible.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Not for committing other crimes, but simply for the crime of doing it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't like it.
		Why has the price fallen like that?
		It must be a supply.
		I mean, everything's supply and demand.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you get into conspiracy thing.
		What if you had a country like Bolivia, which looked horrible on the world map?
		And what if the World Bank said, you guys, we're going to try to improve your agribusiness and we're going to push you to grow some legit crops and give you some means to grow crops, which Bolivia would love, and say, great, instead of producing so much cocaine, we're now going to produce these crops.
		But if at the same time, the World Bank said, in exchange, the U.S. can push as many crops into Bolivia without any restrictions on trade or any tariffs, well, the Bolivians could grow all the lettuce they want, and it's never going to make it to the U.S. as an export crop.
		And that's really what did happen.
		I mean, that was a condition to get the money from the World Bank.
		Bolivia now looks good, but it really, to maintain its place, it's lost whatever edge it might have had in growing crops that nobody else could grow economically because of tariffs, I mean, an export, et cetera.
		But once Bolivia had to swallow the bitter pill and say, okay, lose all your tariffs.
		We don't care.
		Suddenly, their local crops are Colombia's coffee.
		Same thing with Colombia's coffee.
		Same thing with Peru's bananas.
		All of them drop to zero.
		There is no agri-crop.
		We can talk all we want about crop substitution, but if they can't protect with tariffs their crops in terms of getting into a world market at a reasonable price, and we in turn can use government-subsidized crops to flood their markets, we have really reduced them to looking for anything they can produce that will give them an edge.
		And, you know, Peru and Bolivia, obviously, I'd run Coca-Leaf, and Colombia is refining it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if the price of cocaine really has fallen, as you suggest, then that is even a bigger indication that the drug war is a complete failure.
		If anything, the federal officials would try and cite the unavailability or high price of drugs.
		It's certainly gone just the other way.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		No, no, this is, no, and if you're really conspiracy buff, I mean, we at high times who actually spend our lives involved in this, you know, the corruption that has grown out of this trade, the corruption of Bolivian, Peruvian, Colombian, Mexican, and, you know, the Caribbean island government officials, and corruption in the U.S. government.
		It's beyond the beyond.
		I mean, it goes to pretty high levels.
		People drop all the time, and they get indicted, and they just kind of disappear from administrations for little, you know, small infractions.
		But it's, I mean, you know, as long as we're going to have dirty little wars, as long as we're going to need, oh, Afghani freedom fighters are not being funded by the U.S. government, how are we going to get their money to them to buy guns?
		Well, we're not asking them to make heroin instead of hashish.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold it right there.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		We'll be right back.
		Peter Gorman is my guest.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Free Beer Radio Networks.
		Tonight's an ongoing presentation of Christopher Costa from January 12th, 1998.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		My guest is Peter Gorman.
		Peter Gorman is the editor-in-chief of High Times Magazine.
		Kind of a counterculture.
		Druggy magazine.
		I guess a lot of people would say.
		A lot of people have said that.
		It's a lot more, though, and so is Peter Gorman.
		we are going to turn our attention to other matters here shortly.
unidentified		We, uh...
		Heh.
		Heh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're going to have quite a program for you, presuming that it can continue.
		Now, I am back after four days of having had the flu, and I still now have a low-grade temperature.
		I was very, very sick for about four days, and I'm still not all the way back.
		Unfortunately, this morning, my wife came down with it as well, and she is Now, in the middle of a full-blown asthmatic attack, a bad one, at this hour.
		She's also running high temperature, and so everything is sort of tentative, folks.
		And if you hear me bail out of here suddenly, that's going to be why.
		Having said that, we will continue with Peter Gorman in a moment.
		Two items to catch those in LA who just joined.
		I began getting reports yesterday that something was going on on Mount Etna in Sicily, that there may soon be an eruption.
		I found a live cam site on the internet which actually has a camera sitting there taking pictures of Mount Etna.
		I found that about two hours ago, and I started looking at the photographs over the last several hours, tonight, and into the daylight hours, and it was a true, oh my God, kind of moment.
		If you'll look at the photographs, they're on my website now, you will see Etna with hot lava blowing straight out of the top of it and coming down three sides of that mountain.
		It is not yet, as far as I know, a full eruption, but Aetna is obviously, we've got the photos up there, active.
		It's at www.artbell.com.
		If you want to see the photographs, I've got them up there for you at www.artbell.com.
		In addition, I've got this from the Associated Press, Jakarta, Indonesia.
		Hot glowing lava has been spotted on top of a volcano in central Java, prompting authorities in Indonesia to warn nearby residents they may have to get out of there quickly.
		Stan Deo had a report.
		Linda Moulton Howe had a report last, or no, in the first hour.
		And I just got a fact saying it's worth mentioning, Art, that all of this recent volcanic activity just happens to coincide with the most recent full moon, January 12th.
		It seems this is yet another confirmation of Jim Birkeland's theories regarding celestial influences on geographic activity.
		I couldn't agree more.
		Add to that the earthquake in China and predictions of earthquakes on the West Coast for the short term.
		So I wanted to get that out.
		And in a moment, we'll get back to Peter Gorman.
unidentified		Peter Gorman Now we take you back to the night of January 12, 1998, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We will get phone calls.
		My guest is Peter Gorman.
		He is editor-in-chief of High Times magazine.
		Many of you know that magazine probably from your youth, as do I. It is considered, or was considered to be, the voice of the counterculture, and if you look at present conditions, it really can still make that claim.
		We have talked about marijuana and the drug laws extensively in the last hour.
		Peter Gorman is also an environmentalist.
		And Peter, there's a lot of stuff going on environmentally that I would like to ask your opinion about.
		We've got deformed frogs showing up worldwide now.
		We now know for sure that it is ultraviolet radiation.
		We have a very large ozone hole thinning ozone over the U.S. We have more environmental disasters underway in the sea, for example, than you can shake a fishing pole at.
		We've got cysteria coming out of North Carolina into the Atlantic and now up in the North Atlantic, something that kills fish and puts bloody sores on them and now is beginning to affect people.
		We've got simple-celled organisms in the Antarctic beginning to show actual genetic change.
		I could really go on and on and on and rattle on what's wrong in the environment, and it really is wrong.
		And I wonder where you think it's going.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		That's a tough one.
		I mean, without trying to be wild and extravagant, I think that I'm not sure how much is the hand of whatever and how much is our hand, but I feel quite certain that we've played a large, you know, we've stirred the pot.
		And in a lot of areas, we can really see where we've done that.
		If you look, for instance, in Seattle or in the northwest when you have clear cutting and the following year, you've got, you know, nine feet of flooding in the middle of big cities.
		And people say, whoops, this must be heavy rains when the trees, the roots of the trees acted like sponges and are, you know, absorbing that rain and are no longer there.
		Or if you look at some beautiful islands like the Andaman Islands in the Indian Ocean and see that, hey, let's cut all the trees down here and, whoops, all the coral reefs die.
		Certainly nobody who's an environmentalist or even an armchair environmentalist could look at any of these phenomena and not realize that we have done a great deal of disservice to the planet.
		But I mean, do I pin it particularly on feeding cows with parts of I'm not sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your phone's cutting out on us.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Do you have a call?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		It's probably somebody trying to come through, and I apologize, I don't usually get calls at 3.15 in the morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		New York Times.
		No problem.
		Let's assume it's a fake one.
		But yeah, I mean, you know, from my point of view, I see it a lot down in Peru.
		I spent a lot of time down in Peru over the last 15 or so years, a couple of months a year.
		I'm about to take a year off to spend a year down there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're going to take a year off?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I've got a year of sabbaticals starting next month.
		Wow.
		Yeah, I I think my my employers realize that answering the phone calls, people who are in the process of, you know, I mean their typical phone call might be, hello, uh, is this Peter Guam?
unidentified		Yes.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the police are here and they're saying if I don't testify against my husband, they're taking my children.
		Can they do that?
		It's been wearing on me for a while.
		And I think it wears on anybody who's in the field and I just have to be lucky enough to have some employers who understand, like, get out of here, get fresh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're ready for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's been that struggle.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I've been waiting for it.
		You know, it's funny because of all the places where I can't involve myself in the drug war, it's in Peru.
		And that's where 90% of the dirty deeds are.
		But it's the one place because, you know, my mother-in-law lives there, my father-in-law.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I can't report on any of it.
		I mean, I've been told pretty straight up, you're not doing that down here.
		You've got family and you like to see them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and so you're paying attention.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got to pay attention.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you know, there's no question.
		We're not talking about me.
		I'm not a single guy.
		I can be honest.
		I can be a journalist, but there are certain things you get privy to in a small place like the Amazon.
		It's small in terms of where the populace hit.
		And in those places, other people make the rules.
		And as much as I can disagree with policies of the U.S. government, as much as I will fight to change them, it still is the U.S. government where there is a certain, in the end, reasonableness for most of us.
		In other parts of the world, we don't have that.
		You know, and you don't have the luxury of being able to tell the government to jump to the lake and talk about it the next morning.
		And Peru is certainly one of those things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Believe me, I understand.
		Why do you go to Peru?
		Why do you go to South America?
		Why?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you the truth.
		I've always had wanderlust.
		It's just been in my blood since I was a little kid.
		And 20 years ago, I was with somebody who, on hearing I was going to start going into the jungles of the Amazon, bought me a book called Headhunters of the Amazon, written Turn of the Century.
		And she meant it to steer me away with the frightening tale of a fellow who was lost six years down there.
		And instead, it kind of gave me the roadmap of, cool, that's where I got to go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I know that you don't go to the area where the Yanamama people are.
		But I did a program with an expert on the Yanamama people.
		And it was his view that we're out of our minds to be intruding upon them and trying to cause them to become Christian and change their ways.
		And they do have some rather brutal ways.
		There's no question about that.
		The anthropologist who's been studying them did several hours on it with me and I think makes a very convincing argument.
		I had another fellow on named Mark Ritchie who wrote a book called Spirit of the Rainforest who has exactly the opposite view and I interviewed him, thinks we ought to go down there and turn them into Christians and stop all this brutality and that that is our job as a civilized world, you know, to go down there and change everything.
		How do you feel about that?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		No, I certainly would agree with the former and not Mr. Ritchie.
		I think that I deal with a group called the Mattez Indians who are kind of a subgroup of an anthropological group known as the Mayaruna.
		And they are changing.
		When I met them, they still painted their faces.
		They still wore, kind of painted their faces like jaguars and primarily hunted and gathered, although there was some agriculture involved in their lifestyle.
		And like the Anamamo, they could be, they're brutal.
		But it's a very brutal world.
		And they were being Christianized, and there were being, you know, missionaries come through and traders have come through.
		And when I met them in 1985, I was certainly not the first white boy they'd ever seen.
		But they still have, and even to this day, it's reasonably sporadic, you know, influence.
		A teacher in Peru, to get their license, has to go into rural communities at some point and teach for some months.
		So you might get somebody from Lima, and they just get plunked down in a community.
		It could be a mestizo, could be Indian, and they bring their influences, as a rule, to that community and say, oh, this is no good.
		I mean, you know, you kill this animal, but you're not killing it.
		You're letting it suffer overnight, and you're waiting until the morning to kill it.
		That's no good.
		If you're going to hunt, you have to kill the animal right away.
		Which is humane to our point of view, but if you're actually living in the jungle and realize the heat and that the meat is going to go bad overnight, you suddenly would say, hmm, better to just wound it and let it sit overnight.
		It is brutal.
		It's very difficult for me to cope with that at first sight or for any of us.
		But that's life.
		That's life in the jungle.
		And I think I do my best to be as uninfluential as possible.
		I don't bring people out to them as Indians.
		Other people can find them if they want to.
		I can't really stop them.
		But when I've written stories, I draw fake maps and fake rivers.
		And occasionally, an anthropologist will accuse me of not knowing where they are because, Peter, this river doesn't make any sense.
		Instead of them recognizing, like, hey, look, I'm just kind of giving a general indication.
		But I mean, you know, but certainly I think the more change, look in Mexico.
		If you just take people who are farmers, their life can be full and it can be a jubilant, wonderful celebration of life.
		If you convince them they're better off coming to work in a factory near the border for six bucks a day, and they say, wow, I've never had six bucks a day.
		Well, they end up essentially becoming our indentured servants at best, our slaves at worst, and living in a community where for their six bucks a day they can't get nearly as much as they got for their six bucks a month when they were growing their own food and living with their own extended families in a community that supported itself and supported each other in lean times and shared their goods.
		So, yeah, you're talking to somebody who prefers to leave people the heck alone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		NASA keeps sending the shuttle up, and they go around and they take photographs from space of the rainforest.
		And these photographs keep coming back showing the rainforest basically on fire.
		And that's not an over-exaggeration.
		They're burning incredible, incredible amounts of the rainforest down there.
		Big problem?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		In certain areas, it's a huge problem.
		In certain other areas, the problem was solved by attrition in western Brazil, in Acre, when Brazil had overpopulous on the east coast and said anybody who would go west to open up these territories, probably like we did in the 1840s, you know, you take a chance, but we're going to give you your 40 acres and a mule.
		Well, a couple of million people did go to Acre, to the western states in Brazil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They built a road.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, we helped pay for that road.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Fortunately, for people who like the forest, and unfortunately for the people who tried to settle it, the road functions very badly and is washed out most of the year.
		And about 75% of the people who actually moved out there moved back east and said, what are you kidding?
		I mean, we can't grow anything.
		Everything we grow, by the time we get it anywhere, is rotten.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's what bothers me.
		Did you, there was a movie about the rainforest called Medicine Man.
		Did you ever see that?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		In that, it was fictional, but they discovered a cure for cancer from something that grew in the rainforest.
		Now, I sit here and wonder, have we burned the cure for AIDS, the cure for cancer, the cure for heart disease, and many other crippling illnesses?
		Have we already burned that stuff, or might it still be there?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a couple of things, and I'm going to forget this fellow's name now, and he'll shoot me.
		A fellow is working out in South Pacific, and he just wrote a book, People, Culture, and Plants, with Mike Valick.
		And I apologize to him on the air for forgetting his name.
		And he had found something that did actually work for AIDS in a test tube, which is not to say a cure.
		But at the time, it was an APY story.
		And when he went back, the people that he was working with had been ordered by their government, the indigenous people that he worked with, had been ordered by the government to build a school.
		And the only way they could build a school was to cut down their 40,000 acres of forest.
		And so he ended up raising a fund and starting a fund and ended up saving their forest.
		But that was one that really mimicked Medicine Man to the teeth.
		I collected twice for small pharmaceutical companies, and I think both are going to have immense success with products that maybe I was involved in, but it wasn't really me, it was the Indians.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, I heard something about you.
		There was this big announcement here recently about some sort of something that comes from frogs that has the same, I think they said, same medicinal effect as the medical equivalent of heroin, morphine, without any of the side effects.
		What do you know about that?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, two things.
		During the 1970s, there was a tremendous interest in amphibian skin.
		The same frogs that are disappearing now have produced certain kinds of mucus on their body, or what I call mucus, which protects them from bacteria and protects them from infection.
		And so some terrific herpetologists and scientists went down to the Amazon and all around the world and began studying these frogs for their chemical components in the mucus.
		Would this be something that would be good, like a natural penicillin, for instance, you know, the equivalent?
		And one of them that was studied was a frog called the epidatees, which is a small tree frog.
		And it was studied by a fellow named John Daly.
		Now, where I came into it was all the study of frogs and amphibian skins, there was still nobody had ever written a first-person account of having used it or used any of these substances.
		Now, when I was at the Masas Indians, 1986, I was in a hut with a friend of mine, Pablo, and I was pointing to different things, trying to find a vocabulary that we could share.
		And I was pointing to his arrow and a bow and this and that.
		And I pointed to a little small medicine bag over a fire, and I said, you know, kind of what's that?
		And he grinned and said, Sappo, pulls it down, takes a stick out of the fire, burns my forearm, spits into this stick of stuff that was hanging over the fire, mixes it up, and puts it onto the open wounds.
		Like a subcutaneous, not an injection, but a subcutaneous infusion in my system.
		And immediately, I had no idea what it was.
		I was terrified.
		My heart began to race.
		I started to vomit and defecate and urinate and sweat and rolled around the floor.
		And at first, the Indians thought it was hilarious.
		I mean, the matfez.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, anyway, wait a minute.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		This is a great place to hang the whole audience up.
		So, here's some relevant bumper music, and we'll be right back.
		From the High Desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
		My guest, Peter Gorman, editor-in-chief of High Times.
		This story on the other side of the break.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere inside.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from January 12, 1998.
		Coast AM from January
		Coast AM from January 12, 1998.
		12, 1998.
		Coast AM from January 12, 1998.
		Coast AM from January 12, 1998.
		Thank you.
		Free Meer Radio Networks presents Arkbell Somewhere Inside.
		Tonight's program originally aired January 12th, 1998.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Peter Gorman is my guest.
		He's editor-in-chief of High Times magazine, and we're going to get phone lines open here in just a very few moments.
		So if you have a question for Peter, now would be a good time.
unidentified		Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM, has a new name, Coast Insider.
		You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price.
		The package includes podcasting, which automatically downloads shows for you and the iPhone app.
		You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
		That's over a thousand shows for you to collect and enjoy.
		If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
		Visit Coast2CoastAM.com to sign up.
		Now we take you back to the night of January 12, 1998, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell All right, we're going to finish this story, and then we're going to go to the phones.
		Peter, so they scratched you, they put this stuff on you, you proceeded to sort of wet your pants and so forth, which I would too, not knowing what they had just given you.
		You know, maybe on your way toward a serious acid trip or something, who knows?
		Or even worse.
		And what happened?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, 15 or so minutes later, my heart starts to beat fast and faster and faster, and I thought, okay, I'm going to explode, and this is all over, and I don't know how to undo this.
		And instead, 15 minutes later, when my heartbeat was still fast, but kind of leveled off, I was ecstatic and fell into asleep.
		I imagined that I was carried, because I didn't walk, to a hammock.
		And I woke up a couple of hours later and heard a conversation, thought someone was in the platform hut with me.
		And in fact, I was alone.
		And in fact, the conversation that I heard might have been 20 yards away, two people speaking in a normal voice.
		And it occurred to me I could hear everything.
		And suddenly I felt strong, and I felt big.
		And actually, what had happened was I had been zapped with the most bioactive substance ever discovered on the planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was it?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Which is this frog sweat, sappo, was how they described it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The stuff we were talking about.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this is just the goo from a frog, gently scraped.
		It's the actually kind of the protection that some tree, this particular tree frog had against constrictor snakes who might swallow it.
		And the frog would, you know, get frightened and pass this material out, and the snake then presumably spits the frog out rather than crushing it.
		And in the human body, almost, well there were 73 separate proteins that interact with the human body, and the human body deals with them as if they were produced by itself, including a naturally occurring opioid,
		which is very similar to opium, from which morphine is derived, which now has hit the news last week with a similar sweat from a different frog, but a very, very similar frog, as a potential for an analgesic that would be much, much more potent than morphine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Non-addictive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that correct?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Non-addictive.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		When we say bioactive, we mean it interacts with the body the same way as something your body itself manufactures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, that brings up another question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If we have something that is as strong or stronger, if that's even possible to imagine, than morphine with none of the negative side effects, how will society as represented or not properly represented by government react to such a drug?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		It'll be very difficult to get a hold of.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		It'll be...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I presume they will go to work on trying to synthesize.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, they synthesize it.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		You know, in the real world, someone is going to profiteer, someone is going to blackmark it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nothing changes, huh?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you know, if we're realistic human beings, somebody wants to try it, somebody has access to it, you can have it, whether it's bathtub, gin, you can buy whatever you like at liquor store now, and yet still people are, you know, distilling spirits here and there.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Peter, you can buy anything you've got the money for.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		So somebody's going to put something like this on the market, but it's going to be for a very small crowd, and it's going to be for, you know, probably people who are into those experiments.
		And those are the people who tend to get away with it anyway.
		They're, you know, the money people, the privileged.
		Sure.
		But this is, no, this is certainly not something that's going to hit the streets.
		I just can't imagine it.
		And in fact, if you wanted to build up a clientele for a drug, one of the best ways to build it up is to supply a drug for which that clientele has a need tomorrow.
		You wouldn't want to give them a drug for which they would say, never mind, that was terrific, and I don't need to do that again.
		I have no desire to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I follow you.
		One other angle, and then we'll definitely go to the phones, and that is this.
		There's a big battle going on in this country.
		Medical doctors are loath to treat people who are in severe pain and or even dying with a fatal disease with sufficient amounts of narcotics that are presently available to keep them from pain.
		In other words, we have thousands of people in this country who are dying very painful deaths when it need not be.
		And it's because physicians are afraid of the DEA.
		The DEA monitors what they write in terms of prescriptions.
		And if it surpasses their little numbers that say, let's go investigate this guy, the doctor's in trouble.
		The net result is a lot of people who are dying very painful deaths cannot get the drugs that they need, and that is a crime.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Rick.
		Well, no question about it.
		But I hope that this is a 10-year bump in the human heart as opposed to a permanent bump.
		I hope that fear of an agency like that quickly de-escalates.
		And I think that the doctors themselves, as well as patient groups around the country, have been vocal enough that it's certainly my hope, but it's almost my expectation that this will pass soon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, 60 Minutes did quite a piece on it.
		And after they did it, I actually went out and asked a few doctors I know, and I know quite a few, and they said, you're damn right it's that way.
		You better believe it's that way.
		I would write a lot more prescriptions to stop pain if it were not for my, you know, were it not for my fear of the DEA.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, no question.
		I had a tooth pulled recently, and it was quite painful.
		And the guy says, get Tylenol.
		I said, well, you know, give me something.
		And he said, I can't.
unidentified		Come on.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I had a tooth pulled.
		You've got stitches all over my mouth.
		So, you know, at the moment, yeah.
		I'm just hoping that it's a glitch and that, you know, three more years down the line, we can put it behind us and let doctors be doctors.
		They spend a lot of money, a lot of time, and we spend a lot of time subsidizing their medical schools to make sure they're intelligent about what they're doing.
		And at some point, you've got to let go of the child's hand and say, we've trained you as best we can.
		We trust you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's try some phone calls.
		First time caller line.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Can you give a plug before we do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Plug anything you want.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		A quick plug, because for the first time, and probably the only time, I've agreed with a company, as long as I'm going to be in Proof for a couple of, for a year, I've been asked before, and I've always said no, but as long as I'm going to be there, okay, I'll take some people out for, you know, in and around Akitos.
		And I think a terrific trip.
		And for anybody who happens to be listening, I've got a couple of weeks in March, April, and then in August with a few slots open.
		And the company's called Axiom, and they've got a free phone line at 888-777-5981.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, so people have to grab paper and pencil and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That number again?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		For Axiom, 888-777-5981.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you take people down to Peru?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I've never done it before.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		It's going to be the first time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are you going to do with them down there?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I think the jungle is a fascinating spot, and I'm going to take them from Iquitos, smack in the middle of Peru's Amazon, out up the headwaters of the Amazon to a couple of lovely lakes for a few days, bring them back, let them clean up, take them out in a different direction for three or four nights of stomping through the jungle and setting up in the middle of nowhere where we can watch monkeys come overhead at night and go night fishing in canoes.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		And then after we clean up, the third go-round, I'll take them out and teach them how to collect plants and how to, you know, some of the medical plants and potential medical plants, teach people how to do some collecting out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I recently saw Anaconda.
		There's none of that going on, right?
		I mean, none of your group is liable to be eaten by a giant snake or anything.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Man, you know, I've been looking for 15 years for an anaconda beginning in 2015.
		I just can't find one.
		No, I'm not going to take people out to where they're going to get deathly ill.
		There is one other phone number, which is my own voicemail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		212?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's going to load up.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		212-387.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		387-0769.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		0769.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that was the plug.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then they would be poet...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They'd be calling the second number for the same reason.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To possibly go along with you?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Or if they called the first number and talked about what it might be and they wanted to see what I sounded like?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		See if I sound like a reasonable human being.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		That way that's something I would get back to them on and be able to discuss what's in the trip beyond what would appear in a brochure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		212-387-0769.
		Now, to the phones.
		First time caller line.
		You're on the air with Peter Gorman.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Northern California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And my situation is that I'm a registered nurse.
		Although I am a registered nurse, I've not been working for the last four years.
		I've been disabled and I'm still on disability.
		The problem that I'm facing is that my doctor has prescribed marijuana for me.
		I'm 48 years old.
		I'm having to take the crash course on how to smoke marijuana for the first time at 48.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He prescribed it in connection with what?
unidentified		I have a very unique set of circumstances that, in the sense that I have a bone infection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, all right, so for medical reasons.
unidentified		Medical reasons.
		Anyway, it's a real complicated situation.
		But the bottom line of the situation is that without it, I was losing weight to the point where my lot, I mean, I'm 5'6 and I weigh 104 pounds and I was down to 85 pounds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
unidentified		Yeah, it's hard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so for appetite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so what is your question?
unidentified		Okay, my question is the problem is obtaining the marijuana in the first place.
unidentified		I mean, I don't know about Mystery Corners, but I'm 48 years old, and I don't have a lot of friends, and I don't have a lot of people that I know who have access to marijuana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, it is a good question, Peter.
		I think that they have started some marijuana clubs in California or something.
		Now, maybe they're shut down.
		I don't know what the current status is.
		What would you say to her?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, despite at the moment there being kind of a political football out there with the medical marijuana buyers clubs in California, I would say that if this woman were to call San Francisco and call
		up, if this woman were to look in the alternative papers in San Francisco or Mendocino County, she's going to find the address or specific names of anyone of near two dozen buyers clubs in
		California, any of which can steer her to someone who might be supplying marijuana for medical purposes in her area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good answer.
		She's lucky to be in California where that is possible.
		Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Peter Gorman.
unidentified		I'm James from Wisconsin.
		I'm calling to talk about what we can do to keep some of these smaller local governments from cracking down too hard on people.
		One of my close friends was arrested about a year ago.
		I lived with him and they rented our house.
		Well, since then I've been like stopped almost every couple of weeks, someone coming to my door from the local police department asking to buy marijuana or something.
		And my house has been rented twice since.
		Do you have any ideas about what we could do to stop this kind of thing from happening?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, this sounds like the reason you're taking a year off, Peter, but go ahead.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I would say, you know, any social movement needs bodies and the bodies have to come from, you know, from all of us.
		So if you're feeling isolated, I would recommend that you call up National Normal and find out if there's a normal chapter in your neck of the woods or any other activist chapter in your neck of the woods.
		And if there isn't, you might find out how to start one.
		And you might be very surprised those local police department might be visiting 20 people in your neighborhood every couple of weeks.
		And if the 20 of you got together and began to say, this is not fair.
		Whatever we, if we were arrested in the past, that's past.
		Continued harassment is not part of the deal.
		If we went to jail, we went to jail.
		Or if we were exonerated, we were exonerated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So your real answer is political power.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and it only comes in groups.
		One at a time doesn't work.
		So you've got to find out who else is being harassed and join with them.
		And then you've got a voice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Logical answer.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Peter Gorman.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		I'm in Kentucky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kentucky?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your first name?
unidentified		Tina.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, go right ahead.
unidentified		I was just wondering, how much is a year's subscription?
unidentified		What's the phone number if you wanted to order the magazine?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess I'll...
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		We're in New York City, and we're about $30 for a year's subscription.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, that's why they're giving you a year off.
		Exactly.
		You know what?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		If you call my voicemail, the same number I gave out, you'll be able to get back here and give you the potatoes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's 212-387-0769.
		And by the way, you know, I heard that somebody mentioned me in your magazine.
		I don't know what it was in connection with or anything, but I know I was mentioned.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I think it was a piece.
		When we say voice of the counterculture, we don't just mean marijuana.
		So we had a story recently by a lovely writer, Leslie Stackle, on Is Anybody Out There Listening?
		It was about the state of talk radio.
		Oh, no kidding.
		And I believe you were mentioned in that piece as one of a handful of people who actually have good syndication who are not to the right of center.
		But in the same way, you spoke before about the environment.
		And that's one of our key issues every couple of months.
		And then, you know, so many of the things that come up for us in everyday life don't seem so countercultural now because they are.
		The environmental movement is part and parcel of our lives.
		We've got to separate our garbage.
		You know what I mean?
		But for us, that remains a key topic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I'm probably more of a libertarian than I am anything else, to be honest with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I used to have fairly conservative leanings in some areas, socially pretty liberal, and then all of that sort of coalesced and I sort of became more cynical about the government, and that sort of turned me into a libertarian.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		It does many people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Peter Gorman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, please?
unidentified		I'm in California.
		Okay.
		I was wanting to know what Peter's views on hallucinogens are and being as the strengths of them are going higher and higher and the ages of children using them are going lower and lower.
		And I was also wondering about, I watch the news a lot and every time they talk about drug traffic, the word control comes up, the control of the drug traffic.
		Do you think the government has anything to do with how much comes in and if they're making a profit off of it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, hallucogens.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		The reality is there is strength of hallucinogens is not up and up, it's down and down and down.
		In my day, LSD, the primary hallucinogen, that's non-organic.
		Now, mushrooms have not changed, right?
		Peyote has not changed.
		San Pedrocaactis hasn't changed.
		So we're talking about synthetics.
		That primarily is going to be LSD.
		In my day, one hit would have been what they call 350 micrograms.
		Today, 50 micrograms is considered a nice, potent hit.
		So you'd have to eat 70.
		Please, forget it.
		Somebody might be listening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, the bottom line is you disagree on the first part of the question.
		Listen, we're at a break point again.
		Can you do one more hour?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you got it, Anya?
unidentified		Oh.
unidentified		Is your wife okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do five hours.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I know what you're saying.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		You might say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		I'm monitoring by the break, Peter, so we'll see.
		If you've got it, I've got it.
		Peter Goyman is my guest.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast A.M. You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Freemeter Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from January 12, 1998.
		Coast to Coast AM from January
		12, 1998.
		Coast to Coast AM from January 12, 1998.
		Only food refugee.
		Falling in love with me.
		Chad high state when it be.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from January 12th, 1998.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is Peter Gorman.
		He's editor-in-chief of High Times magazine.
		And we'll get back to him and try and lay pretty heavily into the phones this hour.
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		Are you convinced that there are governments above governments?
		Governments that we don't vote for.
		Governments that are controlling presidents or prime ministers or leaders of other nations?
		There's no doubt there were two governments.
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		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from January 12th, 1998.
		music
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back now to Peter Gorman, the lucky duck.
		He's about to take a year off and go to Peru.
		A year off.
		Lucky you, Peter.
		Yeah.
		I mean, really lucky you.
		Who gets to take a year off?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I'll be working down there, but it's a year out of the office.
unidentified		Yeah, that's right.
unidentified		It sure is.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, something about Peru.
		My hair curls, my skin gets good and dark.
		I lose those 10 pounds.
		And I start to look like a real, you know, a real guy again, as opposed to somebody who's been sitting under fluorescence and answering phones for a while.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and you come back with a whole different attitude, I'm sure.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		You're fresh and you're ready for a fight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long does it last?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I've never done a year, but two months lasts two months.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Three months lasts three.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does it really?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we'll see.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		We've come past the two-month line.
		It really, it's a real change.
		So I'm excited.
		I'm going to be renting my sister-in-law's riverboat, one of the biggest riverboats in all of Peruvian Amazonia, about 120 feet long and 30 feet wide with three decks.
		And, you know, I'm going to do some plant collecting out there and some fossil collecting and some artifact collecting and play with my kids.
		And, you know, I think have a good time.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wish I could go.
		All right, here we go.
		I promised them phone action this hour, so it's here.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Peter Gorman.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Yeah, I'm in California.
		This is Shadowraven.
		And I was wondering, somebody called earlier, and they were talking about hallucinogens, how they're getting stronger.
		I've heard just a little bit about something called Snowflake.
		And from what I heard about it, it's pretty darn strong.
		I was wondering if you knew anything about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I never heard of it.
unidentified		Peter?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Um, not, I mean, I want to say no and yes.
		No in that it's not a common name but best of my knowledge that's for essentially a name for bathtub PCP.
		And yeah I mean if people start to include PCP or ketamine, you know these are I don't know I mean why anyone would take a horse you know something to put a horse to sleep and look for enlightenment in that.
		Well, there is no enlightenment in that.
		It just can't be, as opposed to communing with the natural world by eating a mushroom or two, given it's the right setting, that you're mentally prepared and that you're with the right person.
		And I don't know that you actually get enlightenment from any of them, but I think you can glimpse some things that you can then, without the influence of any substance, work towards.
		And I think glimpsing something that you can then work towards is a very healthy thing.
		healthy thing for expanding your presence here on the planet in a gentle and meaningful way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Peter Gorman.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, this is Jason from Minneapolis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jason, I can barely hear you.
unidentified		Sorry, this is Jason from Minneapolis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can still barely hear you.
		You're going to have to yell at us right into the phone, Jason.
		So if you have a question, go ahead.
unidentified		This is Jason from Minneapolis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I got that.
unidentified		Go ahead.
		My question is, I've been smoking pots since the seventh grade.
		And basically when I was smoking it, I couldn't remember my dreams.
		And then I got a job and they tested you for drugs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I quit smoking.
unidentified		And now I can actually remember them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I don't know what the Peter, does that mean that short-term memory loss associated with marijuana smoking extends itself to dreams as well?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		No, but I think, excuse me, no.
		And if we had time, I'd debate you on short-term memory loss.
		I think what's learned under the influence of cannabis is recalled under the influence of cannabis better.
		So I would debate that point.
		But I do think anybody who's been smoking since seventh grade ought to take a break, what the heck.
		You know what I mean?
		First.
		And secondly, I think if you go to bed under the influence of anything and put yourself in a very deep sleep, you're going to have a difficult time recalling your dreams.
		So I think it's probably simply a product of your sleep is not quite as it's not being enforced as deeply.
		But I mean, that's just a supposition on my part.
		But by all means, take a break.
		Stay clean for a couple of years.
		You know, why not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Interesting advice.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Peter Gorman.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yes, this is Bob from Ashland, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Bob.
unidentified		Hi.
		I wanted to tell you I worked in the studio business 20 years, and you are my idol.
		You are my idol.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		You're a great guy.
unidentified		Peter Gorman, my wife and I had our 20th anniversary, and we had the greatest time at the 96th Cannabis Cup.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Thanks for coming.
unidentified		It was absolutely wonderful.
		We've smoked for about 25 years, raised a family, had jobs, just regular normal people, and we've enjoyed your magazine and everything about it.
		And we love it.
		My question to you, sir, would be, what kind of red tape would we have to go through to try to get a CBC here in Southern Oregon?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Okay, this Bob, right?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay.
		Bob is asking CBC, for those who don't know, is a canvas buyers club.
		And that basically, in California, it's become a popular term.
		What it means is people are willing to risk going to jail to grow marijuana to be made available to people who need it medically.
		And San Francisco has got the largest, but throughout California and in New York, and in fact, throughout the country, some growers are willing to make part of their harvest available free or inexpensively to people who need it for illnesses.
		All anyone needs to do is be willing to go to jail for 20 years.
		I mean, it's a horrible thing.
		What would someone need to do to get one open?
		The reality is, if you opened one, the minute you begin to distribute, the minute you begin to plant marijuana for distribution, you are subject to federal conspiracy laws.
		You're subject to intent to distribute.
		And in some states, that'll get your life imprisonment.
		On the federal level, if they decide to nail you with it, they'll probably threaten you with it if they know it's for a legitimate buyer's club and then say, well, on the other hand, if you give us all the property you and everyone you know has, we won't put you in jail for the rest of your life.
		And, of course, you're going to end up giving up your property.
		So you've got to say it, but I don't recommend opening one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and that's the price.
		You've got to be willing to pay that price.
		That's a very high price.
		Now, again, there was a 16 minutes, I'm sure it was, story, a short time ago about Vancouver.
		And apparently there's a gigantic storefront operation in Vancouver, B.C., selling marijuana just as openly as you please.
		And they went around and interviewed the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and others about this store in downtown Vancouver.
		I ought to interview the guy one of these days, as a matter of fact.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating guy, Mark Emery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you know him?
unidentified		Oh, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, and they're not touching him up there.
		And the attitude of most of the cops is, look, I have better things to do with my time.
		If they want to do this down in the U.S. and they want to bust people and put a bunch of users and sellers into jail, fine, let them do it down there, but we're not going to do it up here.
		And so far, that's the attitude.
		Now, do you think that's going to hold, or do you think the Canadian government, federal government, is going to step in and squash this guy like a bug?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		a couple of minor points.
		One, the fellows Mark Emery and he was also somebody who flaunted their bookselling laws.
		There's not quite freedom of speech up there in that a magazine like High Times was illegal until three years ago or so.
		Really?
		He nonetheless would buy 500 of them every month and make sure they got distributed.
		So he is somebody who is willing to put it on the line.
		Now he was arrested two years ago at his store after a front-page story in the Wall Street Journal selling seeds and saying, I'm making a mint and I'm not being touched because I pay taxes.
		Well, that was an embarrassment.
		I mean, if you're going to embarrass the police, you're going to pay the price, even if they're being nice to you.
		So they confiscated all of his books, all of his records, and all of his supplies, and maybe I would guess a quarter or a half million dollars, and he now still faces criminal trial at some point, up to 20 years in jail.
		Nonetheless, he reopened and he reopened, among other things, a lovely cannabis cafe.
		He doesn't sell marijuana in the cafe.
		He does have the means to smoke it in the cafe.
		And there probably are people nearby on the street who will make it available to you.
		And in the cafe, he permits smoking, but he's not actually selling marijuana.
		He sells seeds and some hydroponic equipment.
		And he's got three or four stores up there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that'd be enough for them to get him if they wanted to.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		And he was busted two weeks ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Two weeks ago.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		The police did not take any cannabis, but they did take, again, they took a great deal of grow lights and books, trying to, oh, I guess he had just shown up on one too many programs again, and a couple of front-page stories about his operation, and somebody gave the order, and, you know, the Royal Mountains came in and said, well, we're going to confiscate all your stuff.
		But they only arrested people on previous warrants.
		And that was one or two people in a public demonstration against the police action.
		They did not arrest Mark for trafficking this time around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's your view about the Canadian attitude toward all of this versus the U.S. attitude now?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, with few exceptions, the only country, I mean, you know, if we want to talk about some of Southeast Asia, Malaysia, for instance, where there are a lot of cut your head off, most of the countries around the world that I've visited really don't care.
		I mean, in almost every country, there is a tradition of cannabis use among at least certain peoples.
		You know, you think of India and you think of, you know, Hindu sects and Charis and Rashish.
		This is part of the culture.
		So if it weren't for the United States, it wouldn't be considered a problem anywhere.
		And the Canadians, I think, fall into a category where there might not be traditional use, but it was never a problem.
		They don't view it as a problem, and it's a problem only because there's the occasional elbow from the U.S. saying, come on, come on, don't embarrass us here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was living in Alaska, Peter, actually broadcasting on KENI, my affiliate now in Anchorage, when the newswire went ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, and Act 5 dings, I believe, and it was a bulletin, and the Alaskan Supreme Court had just legalized small amounts of marijuana for personal use, I think up to two ounces, and they legalized the growing of small amounts of marijuana for personal use.
		Now, that lasted for a while until the big drug war years came along, and then a bunch of people from Washington went up to Alaska and convinced, with probably tremendous pressures that we can barely understand, the Alaskan legislature to turn it all around.
		And they again made marijuana illegal.
		But for quite a period of time, marijuana was quite legal to grow and to use, and very few people that I know of, in fact none, died, nor went crazy, nor raped, nillaged, nor plundered.
		So it was a pretty good experiment while it lasted.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Peter Gorman.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hey, Argentina Peter.
		This is Alon in Houston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Houston, all right?
unidentified		Yes, a reluctant Vietnam death.
		I have, if I may, two quick opinions, one on Vietnam, one on marijuana, and one question.
		Okay.
		In Vietnam, we intervened in a civil war because of a popular belief that communism was a monolithic giant.
		And I believe any empire will break up eventually if it gets too big.
		Watch for Microsoft to do that.
		And on the drugs, I do believe, along with you, that we should legalize the drugs and then try to control them and educate people about their use.
		I disagree, though, that to say that marijuana is not a drug, because by definition, I believe any substance that alters the body chemistry is technically a drug, even tea or coffee, you know.
		But anyway, here's my question.
		Is anyone raising endangered frogs in tropical greenhouses stateside?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know of any, Peter?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I know of a couple of clandestine operations, but not their locations.
		In fact, the frog that I was involved with, the phylomedes of bicolor, was collected by a French firm and has reproduced very well over there.
		So somebody in France is actively working on not the epibades, which you read about last week, but the phyllobates in France.
		And I imagine that the pharmaceutical company working with Epibades is also, I'm guessing here, but that to ensure supply, that they are, you know, it's very expensive to send Peter Gorman out and say, can you get 10 of these?
		So I imagine it's less expensive to say, let's pay once, Bring 20 back, we'll try to mate them.
		And although I didn't read that they're doing that, I presume they are.
		For most of the species in the world, frogs or otherwise, no.
		Most species in the world that go extinct are going extinct from loss of habitat, which means it becomes very difficult to raise them in captivity with any great success.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And ultraviolet appears to be doing a job on frogs.
		As a matter of fact, a lot of frog eggs are simply dying.
		They're amazed at how many are dying because of the increased ultraviolet.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		First time color line.
		You are on the air with Peter Gorman.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		I'm in Wisconsin.
unidentified		My name is Dan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Dan, you're going to have to speak up good and loud.
unidentified		Sure.
		I had a question first for you, Art.
		You said that you agreed with the legalization of marijuana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Either decriminalization or legalization, yes.
		I think it should be separated from the harder drugs.
		I've held that position for about 10 years.
unidentified		Well, tell me, do you listen to your own commercials?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
unidentified		You have the Drug Free America on, I heard...
		Oh, it is.
		Yeah.
		Okay.
		Well, in that case, I just want to tell you that it's really kind of hilarious to listen to that on your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can imagine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the way it goes.
unidentified		I'd like to hear some facts from Peter about Drug Free America, partnership for Drug Free America, where they get funded, and things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		There was a couple of people investigated some years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time callers, Area 702-727-1222.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Who wrote in the nation probably seven years ago now, and I don't want to swear the same sponsors are the same sponsors, but at the time, pharmaceutical houses, tobacco companies, and alcohol companies were among the primary sponsors.
		Now all of these are drug producers.
		So, you know, it's one drug dealer looking at cornering the market.
		And I'll tell you, although I know I probably can't even say it over here, but if I were a care member, I know where I would invest my money to keep my profits up.
		I've never heard that connected with them.
		And listen, I'm not anti-education.
		I wish we had legit education for everybody about these substances.
		I don't believe drugs are for everybody.
		Just the same way I don't believe caffeine or chocolate is for everybody.
		It just isn't.
		Some people can't handle chocolate.
		They're going to get obese and die.
		And some people are going to misuse heroin and die.
		Some people are going to smoke marijuana at 5 o'clock in the morning and not learn a damn thing at school.
		Or have a lousy day in the job.
		Hey, it's not for everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		I just don't like them all going to jail for their use of these things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear that.
		All right.
		Peter Gorman is my guest, editor-in-chief of High Times magazine.
		I'm Mark Bellin.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast A.M. You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere Inside, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast A.M. from January 12th, 1998.
		Thank you.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premiere Radio Networks tonight at oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from January 12th, 1998.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to have to get Ms. Gorman back online.
unidentified		We just had sort of a telephone accident here.
		Now we take you back to the night of January 12, 1998, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Art Bell, Somewhere in Time Well, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just in the nick of time, I believe that we have Peter Gorman back on the line.
		Sorry about that, Peter.
		That was my error.
		Are you there?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We just came out of the commercial break, so we didn't lose anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're going to go back to the phone lines.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Can I do one thing that I forgot to do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Real brief, I forgot to mention that when you asked before, what am I going to be doing down in the jungle?
		One of the key things regarding the frogs, some of the Matzas Indians, the jungle, and the loss of jungle is going to be documented by terrific documentary filmmaker Larry Laval.
		He's been with me twice down there.
		He's walked across essentially 150 miles of jungle with me.
		And he was with me the first time we ever collected the Phylamedusa frog.
		And I've got him back.
		I've got him making a film this time around.
		So I feel terrific about it.
		And it's certainly one of the things that we'll be doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, you're going to have fun.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		We're going to have a gas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Peter Gorman.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
		This is David from Sacramento.
		Hi, Peter.
		I was wondering if you're aware of what's going on with the marijuana clubs in Northern California politically with the feds.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, what's happened recently was, you know, when the law went into effect, it's been a lot of confusion out there in terms of what's a legitimate club, what's not a legitimate club, how do we monitor these clubs, if it's legal to be a caregiver for someone, is it still legal to be a caregiver for 50 people or 100 people that you don't know?
		And so recently the feds have said that recently the feds have filed a civil suit to close down the buyers' clubs, but they are not going to actively arrest people.
		So currently I think things are status quo with some bluster from the feds, and I won't be surprised if some of the clubs do actually get closed down just to test the waters on that.
		On the other hand, I'd be very surprised if they come under too much fire or if they all come under some fire because I think the people of California spoke and I don't know that the federal government wants to get into a state versus federal law argument.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on here with Peter Gorman.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Yeah, Chattanooga, Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you're on a cellular phone, and you're not very legible.
unidentified		Okay, I'll try my past.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		If you can understand me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Barely.
		You're in Chattanooga, Tennessee.
		I got that.
		Do you have a question?
		No, that's not going to work.
		He just lost his cellular connection.
		Too bad.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Peter Gorman.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		In Depot Bay, Oregon, 100 miles south of Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, turn your radio off.
unidentified		I got it.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll go right ahead.
unidentified		This is Art Bell?
		Yep.
		Oh, hi, Art.
		This is Doug, the National Militiaman from Depot Bay.
		I thought I'd throw that in.
		You know what?
		I think that our problem isn't really drugs as much as it is crime.
		And either legalize it or cut down on crime if we can cut down on this crime.
		That's what I think the problem is.
		And I'm really sorry about your wife.
		I feel bad about that.
		My girlfriend, Otika, got burned on the face, so we're kind of having a time of that.
		That's all I got to say, and I really enjoy your show.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you very much for the call.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Peter Gorman.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, Art Bell.
unidentified		This is Carl from Fairbanks, Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fairbanks.
		Oh, way up there.
		How cold is it?
unidentified		It's about five below right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's not bad.
unidentified		No, no, it's not bad for this time of year.
		Well, it's calling.
		I appreciate your show.
		My grandma's 80 years old, and she listens to you every night.
		And every night, it is.
		And you've got me listening to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Grandma.
		All right, well, I've got a guest, sir.
		Do you have a question for my guest?
unidentified		I would like to know the laws here in Fairbanks, Alaska, in Alaska.
		You know, there's been a lot of marijuana growers get busted, and there's been always in the paper, even yesterday, there's no arrest made.
		Does he have any comment on that?
		Or, you know, we're supposed to have a revote on that because it didn't win by a majority of the vote.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you're saying there are a lot of people busted but not arrested?
unidentified		Right.
		They'll confiscate their equipment or whatever.
		And then even in the papers, yesterday paper, 60 plants, more marijuana growing operation, no arrest made.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No kidding.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's the thing.
		I thought that because it's a little politically sticky, I was just going to let it slide with the recrime in Alaska.
		In fact, what happened was when the Alaskans voted for decriminalization and personal possession legality in Alaska, that became part of the state constitution.
		When Dan Quayle went to Alaska, along with a lot of other federal bureaucrats to get it recriminalized, the legislature did that.
		But it never did get changed in the Alaskan state constitution.
		So that it remains federally illegal to even have small amounts in Alaska.
		It's now a crime that you can get it confiscated.
		And for buying and selling, obviously, you can get arrested.
		But the personal possession is going to be another couple of years before a Supreme Court decision is reached, which would either change the law in the Constitution or stick with what they've got.
		So you're in a gray area now where you've got overlapping laws and ordinances.
		So I'm not surprised that for small personal amounts, people are losing their equipment and losing their products, but they're not getting arrested.
unidentified		So people need to get together and reunite and keep it real like it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you are.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
		Thank you, and take care.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Peter Gorman.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		This is Andy in Anderson.
		Andy.
		Aren't you in Anderson, California?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
unidentified		I read The High Times 100 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It feels that way, doesn't it?
unidentified		Yeah, it does.
		I read about some pipe down in South America somewhere where you blow into it and get high.
		I was just wondering if it was just one of those little articles in the magazine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is this where somebody's on the other end?
unidentified		Well, I guess it was a piece.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a piece I did about 14 years ago about a substance called Nu.
		And the Yanomami would call it Yopo.
		And it is snuff generally made with some quite active leaves mixed with wild tobacco, which is very potent, tobacco rustica.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is this the stuff you blow up somebody's nose?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		You know what?
		I'll tell you what, I collected that for the American Museum of Natural History, and it's in permanent display over there in the beautiful new Hall of South American Peoples.
		The equipment used to make it as well as to use it, as well as the snuff itself.
		It's a very potent substance for communing with the spirit world, for let's say breaching the dimensional barrier, if you happen to believe there are some.
		And if you don't, it's a very powerful tool for communing with deep parts of yourself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe that, Peter?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That there are multi-dimensions?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think there's life in everything.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		And do I know how to talk to a flower?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		But do I believe a flower's got some spirit or, you know what I mean?
		Is it living?
		Yeah.
		And if it's living, I think it's got spirit.
		And so if it's got spirit, I should be able to communicate with it.
		I happen to be kind of an earthbound human.
		I've got a lot of good things going for me, but I don't normally know how to do that communication.
		So I think some of these things, some substances, particularly natural substances, seem to aid you to relaxing whatever it is that we hold up that helps us to be human and protect ourselves day to day, but also keep us from interacting on other levels with some of these things.
		So I believe not only in different dimensions of a sort, but particularly in the potential accessing of the spirits of other living things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		See, I'm still in New York, but in fact, when I'm down in the jungle, it seems very ordinary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on there with Peter Gorman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi there.
unidentified		This is Jeff from Carbondale, Illinois.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Hi, yeah, a longtime listener.
unidentified		I love your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		And I have a question for your guest.
unidentified		Well, first I have a comment about the Vancouver shop.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		www.bsh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, listen, I'd rather not give out web addresses on the air unless I've checked them out first because I've had a couple of bad experiences with triple X stuff.
unidentified		Gotcha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'm sure yours is fine.
unidentified		Not a problem.
unidentified		I'll just let you know that there is a website for that place on the internet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure there is.
unidentified		And I also have a question for your guest about the legalization of marijuana.
unidentified		Do you think sometime within the near future at the millennium coming up that we'll have legalization?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		After the millennium, Peter?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		My feeling is, similar to getting action on AIDS, similar to ending the Vietnam War, you need a critical mass.
		Politicians follow.
		They don't lead, as a rule.
		And I think they're going to have to be led by the nose, and we're going to finally have to say there are so many grandmas and moms and dads on the line, on those front lines, that the politicians say we'll risk more votes not going for it than we do by maintaining the status quo.
		Whether we're close enough to that, whether we've educated enough people, I just don't know.
		I mean, it seems like it's around the corner, but on the other hand, the corner seems sometimes like far, far away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hughes to the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Peter Gorman.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Peter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm in Massachusetts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Frenchy in Massachusetts.
		Okay.
		Peter, I'd like to know what Massachusetts' stand is on the legalization for marijuana and on the if somebody is a second question would be if somebody is clinically depressed and gets prescribed Prozac do you think this could help a person like that thank you well you're not a doctor
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		right no no no I'm not going to trust me on the initial point Massachusetts like everywhere else in the country with the exception of you know California and Arizona it you know cannabis remains illegal for any and all uses including medical on the other hand Massachusetts has a very active activist group called Mass Can they put on a big Boston rally that draws about 60,000
		every fall and they are a terrific bunch of educators
		so while it remains illegal if you want to hook up in your Massachusetts mass can is a knockout organization and somewhere in high times you'd find on a legalized page or re-legalized page you'd find an address to contact them on the other thing you know I mean if a doctor prescribes something and he's your doctor and you trust him I you know I'm not going to comment those high times review prescription drugs like Prozac and
		others like that we've done stories but we we don't review them in that we're not a scientific or you know we're not part of the scientific literature out there on the other hand for instance if a drug a pharmaceutical company were to suddenly say we think 44 percent of all the children in America are out of hand and depressed so we're going to make chewable children's varieties
		then we would certainly comment on that as a newsworthy you know I think we're a story I think I mean without naming names or a couple of these substances pharmaceuticals which are being marketed very heavily to children and whereas three years ago every ball of our kids seemed fairly normal now and in the next couple of years we're going to find out that they all should be on medication for life
unidentified		life which is going to make some pharmaceutical company a lot of money Wildcard line you're on the air with Peter Gorman hello where are you please how are you calling from KHVH Honolulu Honolulu yeah yeah and then there is this A ⁇ E program called I think it's the Curses of Cocaine Mummies they said this German toxologist looked into these mummies and found traces of tobacco, cocaine, and hashish in their hairs.
		And then this was verified by Rosalie David of the Manchester Museum, keeper of Egyptology.
		And so this sort of would be a good thing to know for your show since it mixes drugs with Egyptology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not surprised.
		I suppose as long as there have been people walking the face of the earth, they have found things to eat that seem to change the way they feel.
		Fair comment, Peter?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Fair comment.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Whether or not, specifically, coca or cannabis was available to Egyptians, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe that's proof.
		Who knows?
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Peter Gorman.
		Good morning.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Yeah, this is John from Houston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, John.
unidentified		Hi, a couple questions about the magazine.
unidentified		One, it's kind of strange after all these years the magazine's been around that a lot of your big supermarket chains won't carry it.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, of course, you're not going to find it next to Better Home and Gardens and stuff, but it's not even next to Magazine.
		I can imagine why a lot of supermarkets wouldn't want to carry it.
		But my other question was, this might be hogwash, but I heard that Big Brother has a way of tracking who subscribes to your magazine, and if that's true, and does that have anything to do why you delivered in a big brown envelope?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		No, that's really, actually, a really good question.
		I think a lot of people worry that if they have a subscription, they're on a list somewhere.
		Are they?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		No.
		They're on our list.
		Our list.
		Our list has never been accessed, but I could speak until I'm blue in the face, and a lot of people still wouldn't believe that.
		But no, we do have free speech in this country, and it would be headlines if a governmental organization said, we want your subscriber list.
		I mean, even the media that don't like us wouldn't stand for that.
		As far as why do we deliver it in a round bag, if somebody prefers it in a see-through, that's fine.
		But on the other hand, we know that in some communities, people would get singled out, or it would become the talk of the town, or a postman would point it out, and in other communities, you know, which might not be what somebody likes.
		And in other communities, the postman would simply keep it and get a free sub that way.
		So we think a plain wrapper is the simplest way to go.
		It is adult material.
		It's not meant for kids.
		And, you know, most other adult material of any type is going to be sent in a brown bag, and we just follow that route.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good answer.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Peter Gorman.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Should I turn my radio down?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You should turn it off.
unidentified		Turn it off?
		Okay.
		I had a couple questions for Mr. Gorman.
		Okay.
		The first is I've read some books about Indian tribes in South America that drink a type of tea.
		I'm not sure how to pronounce it because I've only read it in books.
		It's ayahuasca.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Ayahuasca.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		I wonder if he's ever heard of that when he was down there or experienced it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's certainly heard of it.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		What do you know about it a number of times?
unidentified		Give them like an empathic shape-shifting experience?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Ayahuasca, made by the right person at the right time, in the right place, is, on the one hand, it's a purgative, a physical purgative, so it's a curative.
		On the other hand, it is the shortest distance between here and any other planes that you need to access.
		It is low-key in that you are not feeling out of control.
		You never forget who you are.
		You can open your eyes and say, hey, I'm just sitting here on somebody's platform.
		But on the other hand, it allows very easy, you know, beginners can do, as I was surprised the first time I did it, do some astral projection and really go places with directive.
		Like, I want to go see a friend.
		I'm going to note what he's wearing, when he's wearing it, or she's wearing.
		Write a notebook in the morning, and then when you get back to town, tell him, call your friend, and you'll be surprised how often, like, huh?
		Wait, you were there doing that, wearing that.
		That's what I wrote down, I saw you.
		So, you know, that would be for the beginner, but for people in a place like the jungle where distances are great, and it might be days and days to access one friend or a relative, something like that has become a natural medicine for, well, I've got to talk to my sister, and, you know, she lives 600 miles away.
		Let me go visit her and see how she's doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On that note, my friend, we are utterly and completely out of time.
		If you wish to contact Peter Gorman, his personal voicemail is area code 212-387-0769.
		There is another number, a toll-free number.
		If you'd like to inquire about going down to Peru with Peter, it's 1-888-777-5981.
		Is that correct, Peter?
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, listen, gee, what a pleasure to have had you on the program.
		I wish we had more time.
		The hours just went like that.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Thanks for having me, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care, my friend.
peter gorman ▲ ● ▼		Thanks a lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And enjoy your year off.
		Oh, you bet.
		A year off, that lucky duck.
		All right, folks, that's it in some markets back with an hour of open lines.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premiere Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from January 12, 1998.
		Coast to Coast AM from January
		12, 1998.
		I've got to tell you I've been racking my brain Hoping to find a way out I've had enough of this continued rain Changes are coming, No doubt.
		It's been a too long time.
		With no peace of mind.
		And I'm ready for the time to get back.
		You seem to want from me what I cannot give.
		I feel so lonesome at times.
		I have
		a dream here Radio Networks presents our bell somewhere inside the night's program originally aired January 12 1998 Good morning everybody It's been a too long time with no fears of mine And I'm ready for the time to give Yeah me too Okay,
		so you've got stream link for full access to coasttocoastam.com.
		You've downloaded the Apple iPhone app to take it all with you on the go, and you get the daily Coast Zone email newsletter delivered right to your inbox.
		But aren't you forgetting something?
		Yes, you are.
		It's the one and only Afterdark magazine.
		Coast to Coast Am puts out a monthly four-color magazine that readers have been enjoying for more than 15 years.
		And each month, you can read very personal editorials from me, George Norrie, interviews which covers areas that you don't hear on the air, articles from guests which are not on the internet, and relevant news stories that don't always get covered by the mainstream.
		Subscribe now and cover all of your Coast to Coast AM media bases.
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		You can also subscribe online at CoastToCoastAM.com.
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		Visit Coast2CoastAM.com to sign up today.
		Now we take you back to the night of January 12, 1998, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell For the last four or now five days, I have been nearly catatonic with the flu.
		After reporting on the flu so widely, and there is a pandemic of the flu going on now, in many or even most parts of the country, perhaps excepting the Northeast, hospitals are at capacity.
		It is said 500 people in Los Angeles have died of this flu.
		As a matter of fact, PNBC Channel 4 went and interviewed somebody who got very outraged at the county, you know, the county health people got outraged at that figure.
		But it is being reported that 500 have died by the wire services in Southern California, and people are dying.
		This is a very serious flu.
		And I came down with it and had a temperature, very high temperature, on and off.
		I took aspirin and I kept trying to knock it down.
		You know, your body's natural reaction is to have a temperature, and it means it's fighting a virus or something.
		And so you don't want to knock it down completely, but you also don't want it to get out of control.
		So I was a very, very sick person for a few days.
		Now, that let up on me.
		I must tell you, it has lessened, and I'm a little bit better, and that's why I'm with you this morning.
		However, earlier yesterday, my wife got sick, and I am so sorry, because for her, this sort of illness is life-threatening.
		She is an asthmatic, and she's in the middle of a very serious asthma attack right now as a result of the flu and has a temperature as well.
		So from the frying pan into the fire, I was the frying pan, and she is the fire.
		And we're monitoring this very carefully.
		Take care out there.
		This is a very serious flu.
		Some are saying it is an Australian flu.
		Some are saying it's a type A flu.
		Most are saying it's flu-like symptoms, and I don't think they know what the hell it is, frankly.
		But I can tell you it is very, very serious.
		And for several days, I couldn't and didn't eat.
		I did not sleep, except pitfully for an hour or so, and then I'd wake up and be sick again, and just sort of sit there.
		And all I could do is, you know, drink liquids and pray.
		So I'm surprised I'm here, but I'm happy I'm here.
		And if you have an extra prayer or two, you might say it for my wife, because she's very ill.
		And so we will sort of take the week as it comes.
		But this flu is what, you know, I'm calling it a flu.
		I don't really know that's true.
		Whatever it is, is very serious.
		Take care, folks.
		Here is a fax I just received.
		Art, I'm a small-town cop in California.
		And in fact, I'm on duty now listening to your show while on patrol, and as such, have not been able to quite follow everything that's been said or is being said.
		The way I understand it is your current guest, editor of High Times, is advocating the legalization of marijuana and all drugs.
		It amuses me, as a long-time street cop, hearing people wanting to legalize drugs.
		They obviously have not encountered someone who's been up for two or three days on speed or crank or some sort of methamphetamine.
		The majority of people have no idea how dangerous people under the influence of these drugs can be.
		Regarding the issue of the legalization of marijuana and the California initiative, the voters of California did vote for it.
		However, it goes against federal law.
		You can just imagine the chaos which would ensue if state laws could go against federal laws.
		As far as explaining it to your children, the simple fact that it is illegal is a more than adequate explanation.
		The fact that you disagree with a certain law does not give one license to break it.
		It's illegal now for physicians to prescribe marijuana for medicinal reasons.
		However, they will not do so for fear of losing their license to prescribe drugs.
		I think if people are sincere about the medicinal use of marijuana, that is the area that needs changing.
		Dan in California, and Dan, I agree with you.
		I think that marijuana is the area that should be worked on, and I have severe reservations about the legalization of other drugs, but that was the position of Peter Gorman, and that's just fine.
		There are many who share his view.
		It is an ongoing argument in this country of ours.
		And from a doctor that I respect, Art, with regard to pain and drugs for same, I hear you and hear here for you.
		You know how I feel about this from past discussions as far as I am concerned.
		If your patient requires it, you prescribe it and defend your legal position if it becomes necessary.
		We as MDs are supposed to help our patients.
		At least that's what my oath, my brain, and my heart tell me.
		Sorry, Ramona is suffering.
		Hope the attack resolves quickly.
		And I agree, Doctor, with you, of course.
		And then one other item.
		Yes, I do note, Art, did you see CNN's report on Monday regarding the freak snowstorm in the Middle East?
		Reportedly, up to one foot of snow fell in Jordan and amounts in Israel that have not been seen since the beginning of the decade.
		Not to mention the freezing rain problems in central Canada and the northeastern states of the U.S. and at 1.3 million people here without power in the province of Quebec.
	There is no question the quickening is well underway.
	I could not agree more, and there are other things to be said about freak snowstorms in Israel.
	I will not say them now.
	East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
	Good morning.
unidentified		Yes.
		Hi, Art.
		Anyway, this is Kathy in Oklahoma City.
		And I emailed you with this month ago, but I don't know if you ever saw it since you get so much email.
		There is a treatment that they're working on.
		Several places are using it for asthma to supposedly with real good results.
		It's something like 80% helium and 20% oxygen that's supposed to knock an asthma attack almost to nothing in a very short amount of time.
		Do you remember getting that email?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
		And I thank you.
		I've had a million people send me email on possible cures for asthma.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And she is a very serious asthmatic patient, and she's got it as well under control as it can be.
		However, when something like this comes along, asthmatics know, it immediately attacks your respiratory system.
		And if you have your asthma under control otherwise, believe me, when something like this comes along, you're in the fight of your life.
unidentified		Right.
		That's why I wanted to make sure that you at least knew of it because, yeah, we're all rooting for her out there.
		Oh, one quick question.
		How many people can get a ring on any one line at a time?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, on any one line, only one person.
unidentified		Huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, that's not quite true.
		I have wildcard lines, so there would be several people there.
		But generally on other lines, like this toll-free line, the one you're on right now, just one at a time.
unidentified		Huh, because back when you were doing predictions, there were a few times there where I got a ring, but then it got picked up with someone else.
unidentified		Maybe the lines were kind of fouled up that night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't know what to tell you.
unidentified		I was using redial and getting alternate busy signals, so I was just kind of curious.
unidentified		Anyway, like I said, we're all pulling for you out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I thank you for the call.
		Take care.
		Yep.
		Well, she can use them.
		You know, when it rains, it pours, waiting for the times to get better, huh?
		I see that Iraq is vowing to block UN weapons inspectors led by an American it says is a spy, but that other UN inspection teams can continue their work.
		It's an ex-Marine here, Captain Scott Ritter, who is being questioned.
		And so we're eventually going to get to the point where no doubt the UN is going to leave and we're going to attack Iraq.
		I think we're just biding our time.
		I don't know the resolution of the, I haven't been keeping track, but a gunman did enter the Tokyo Stock Exchange and he took hostages, halting for a time, I guess, trading.
		And I don't know the status of that story.
		Back to open lines, and let's go to the first time caller line.
		You're on here.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Arbel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		My name is Seth.
unidentified		And we're from Utah?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Orham, Utah.
unidentified		Yeah, and I'm going to go to the next step.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Seth, I've got a question for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What station are you listening to?
unidentified		I believe it's 570.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		570, because we got word that they moved us from KALL to 570.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I guess that just occurred tonight or this morning.
unidentified		Yes.
		I actually lived in Arizona three months ago and I couldn't find, I used to listen to you all the time, couldn't find out where you were until two days ago.
		And so I've just been ecstatic, you know, finding you on the other station.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how well do you hear 570 in Orem?
unidentified		Very well.
unidentified		It's actually much better than the other station that you just mentioned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		K-A-L-L.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, then they upgraded us in Salt Lake.
		Cool.
unidentified		Yeah.
		The question I had was, back in September, you had a call, and I remember I was laying in bed when you had a guy, you had the Area 51 line on.
		And I was wondering a little bit if you had ever heard what happened to that guy who, where you're, I don't know whether it was your station that went down or exactly what occurred after that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, that's hanging in the air as one of the great eternal questions of all time.
		We still don't know what took that satellite down.
		We have made very serious inquiries of GE AmeriCom, and they say the satellite lost Earth-linked.
		It is the only time I have ever heard of that happening, with a total of one quarter of the transponders on the satellite going dead.
		Really weird stuff.
unidentified		That's kind of interesting.
unidentified		One of my roommates worked at El Tor Toro in California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		It's a Marine base.
		And I was talking to him about that, and he said it's very possible that he worked with aircraft mechanics and so forth.
		But he said that it's very possible that something very strange could happen because we were talking the other night about how you had a I forgot who your guest was on, but he was talking about a mother ship that he predicted that we'd see during the daylight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Sean David Morton.
unidentified		There we go.
unidentified		And we were talking about that and my roommate said that they actually he's actually seen plans for it's a marine type ship or something, but it actually can levitate and move backwards that could be mistaken for a very large aircraft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think he also may have said the 49ers were going to win the Super Bowl, though.
unidentified		I don't think so.
unidentified		I just thought it was very interesting, and I was very curious on what happened to that guy, but since it's still up in the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, listen, I've got a scooter.
		It's always going to be up in the air.
		I don't think we're ever going to get a complete answer on that.
		But I appreciate the call and the inquiry, so it's still not stopped company here.
		I think that was Sean, wasn't it, who said the 49ers would win or somebody, I have a lot of people making predictions, so I don't, maybe I'm wrong.
		But somebody made a big prediction the 49ers would win.
		Well, wrongo, the pack cut through them as I suggested they would like a hot knife through butter.
		A wildcard line, you are on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
unidentified		Oh, by the way, go pack.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You got it.
unidentified		You got it.
unidentified		Anyway, about the Aetna eruption or possible eruption?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not possible.
		I'll tell you what.
		It is erupting.
unidentified		Yeah, I did.
		I saw it on your webpage.
		I saw the BB News.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were those cool photographs or what?
		You can go up there and actually see the live cam.
		And I would imagine beginning at about this time of the morning, we're going to begin getting live shots of Ebner.
unidentified		Yeah, the reason why I call this because there's a webpage called Eye on the World, and it has to be Laurie Toys.
		No, maybe it is, sir, but if you use your searches, you go to Eye on the World, and then it has earthquakes and different categories.
		But anyway, if you go to the volcano page, there's a listing for current volcanic activity.
		And not only is that thing erupting, but in Indonesia it's called, I don't know if I have the pronunciation right.
		They just updated it today.
		It was Marapi, Indonesia, the volcano there.
		Yeah, they just gave a warning to the residents.
		Oh, I'm sorry.
		See, you're way ahead of me there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, that's quite all right.
		I appreciate your bringing that to us.
		No, that's exactly right.
		I reported on that several hours ago.
		Sorry.
		No, don't be sorry.
		I'm glad you suggested it.
		You know, we just had full moon yesterday, on the 12th.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so we are now in a window.
		Expect more seismic activity and volcanic activity.
		I'll tell you, it's going to be an interesting year, sir.
unidentified		Oh, it's starting off to be one.
		Yep.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nice.
		See you later.
		East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
		Good morning.
		Hi, Ert.
unidentified		It's Vince in Chicago.
		Hey, Vince.
		You know, about the war on drugs, you know, I think it's really a shame.
		It seems like the war on drugs is just resulting in a big police state, and we've got a massive prison industry that's just growing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You sound like Peter Gorman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's all true.
unidentified		We do.
unidentified		Yeah, you know, I didn't think I was going to like Peter Gorman because I'm not for drugs or anything, but I tell you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He had a fairly even attitude, I thought.
unidentified		Yeah, it is frightening that there's a lot of people getting rich off of this drug industry.
		And I think it's being managed to maximize profits for somebody out there.
		And I don't know who these people are that are making all the money, but I tell you, the war on drugs is we're not winning it, and we never will.
		And I just think we're creating a police state in this huge prison industry with all these minor petty drug criminals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, Vince, I don't disagree with you.
		I just don't know that I am prepared to suggest the legalization of all drugs is a good idea.
		Here's a quick facts.
		Well, Art, congratulations on the Packer win.
		I was at the game pulling for the Niners, but yes, we were outplayed.
		I really knew it was all over at halftime when they started playing all right, and it's coming on, and we've got to get right back to where we started from.
		Love is good, love can be strong.
		I knew you had it at that point.
unidentified		Yeah, there's no doubt about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Marks in the pocket.
unidentified		Pass complete.
unidentified		Touchdown.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, there's no way.
unidentified		Boy, Lombardy would have loved this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's no way anybody's going to stop him.
unidentified		Sure to ring the art bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Turkey AM from January 12th, 1998.
		Love with me, and with me.
		and make you better take your home with me Dalla tu cuerpo alegria macarena Que tu cuerpo pa mar la alegria y cosa buena Dalla tu cuerpo alegria macarena Eeeh macarena Aaaaah Dalla tu cuerpo alegria macarena Que tu cuerpo pa mar la alegria y cosa buena Dalla tu cuerpo alegria macarena Eeeh macarena Aaaaah Now don't you ever I'm a boyfriend The boy's name is Vitorino
		I don't want him to ban him, even though he's so high.
		Hey-oh!
		AI.
		AIO.
		You're listening to Art Bell Submarine 5, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from January 12th, 1998.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to the program.
		Those of you who join at this hour, anything is possible tonight.
		Anything at all.
		Who knows?
		But then again, that's kind of the way I like it.
unidentified		Thank you.
unidentified		Now we take you back to the night of January 12, 1998, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell All right, the hostage situation in Japan is now resolved.
		A 41-year-old in custody, nobody hurt.
		He was a disgruntled leftist who claimed other countries were stealing Japan's money.
		That's Dale in Port Angeles, Washington.
		Thank you, Dale.
		Really?
		other countries stealing Japan's money.
		Well, if that sort of thing was a reason for taking hostages, the New York Stock Exchange would have been out of...
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning to you.
		Yes, it is.
		Where are you?
unidentified		KCMO listener from the Flatlands.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kansas City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yes, you know, with your book, The Quickening, and it's quite an interesting book.
		I might add, all these folks like old Victor and folks like that, why don't they go ahead and start spilling their beans now?
		You know what I mean, all the information that they've...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, he got the footage out, and he's still there.
unidentified		There's more people than Victor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, I imagine others are going to come forward.
unidentified		Well, I wish they really would.
		You know, I think it's about time.
		I'm not trying to say, you know, just because it's the year of the tiger.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, the big show we did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, one of the problems is that a lot of people like this signed oaths, and if they come forward, they're going to go to jail.
unidentified		Yes, I realize that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's safety in numbers.
unidentified		But there's folks in lower forms of law enforcement that break oaths every day and get away with it.
		And, you know, it just steadily climbs up the ladder.
		But, you know, I just wish some of these people would really, you know, once they get on your program, kind of open up and go for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I could not agree more.
		Thank you very much.
		Robert O. Dean, I thought, went pretty far the other day.
		As far as you could expect anybody to go.
		I thought he really laid it out, and I guess I'm on his list, and one day I'm going to have a packet of documents arrive, and then it'll be my dilemma, won't it?
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, my name is Ralph.
unidentified		I'm from San Francisco.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you wish to take a moment to cry?
unidentified		Oh, no, not at all.
		I like football, but I'm not that big a football fan.
		You know, unrealistically, the 49ers really, I mean, Packers play good, but a lot of coaching decisions cost them that game, though, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not blaming on the coaches, that's a little.
unidentified		Well, no, you know.
unidentified		But anyway, I just thought I'd I haven't been listening to your show for a lot of months.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's a young coach there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's got a lot to learn.
unidentified		Well, yeah, you know, it's the way it goes.
		You know, next year's always another year.
		Yeah, I know.
		I know a friend of mine at work that I work with told me all about your show, and while he doesn't have a computer, and I do, I've logged on and looked at your website numerous amount of times.
		But I found it interesting about, I don't know how many months ago, maybe five months ago, you had a person on a guest that talked about Mono Lake and the possible eruption at Mono Lake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And yesterday, well actually on Saturday on San Francisco here on Channel 2, which is Karn, I forgot the name of the channel now.
unidentified		Anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Channel 2.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry.
unidentified		They had a whole thing on it at night about possible volcanic eruptions on Mono Lake and everything.
		They're the only ones that have done this in the Bay Area talked about it.
		And this is just, like I said, Saturday.
		And I found it kind of interesting here.
		You did it like about six, seven months ago.
		Now, finally, the local media, just one channel, is talking about how they went up there and it looks like possible eruptions and all the catastrophic things that could happen and about what happened in 1980 up in, you know, near Seattle and Washington and all that.
		And I really found it kind of interesting that...
		So I just found that.
		I just thought I'd let you know that they finally got around to talking about that around here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		I appreciate the call and the information.
		I am not surprised.
		We generally lead the media by a long way.
		And most things that I bring up and talk about, people send me email or mail and say I'm crazy as a loon.
		And for a few months it looks as though I am and then suddenly, whoosh.
		It's like my book, The Quickening, which, by the way, you can get nationally now in any bookstore.
		Bear in mind now, when you read The Quickening Now, the economic chapters, the environmental chapters, the chapters on the weather, bear in mind I wrote that one year ago now.
		Wrote it one year ago.
		And as you read it, a lot of it is going to be like reading current headlines.
		Now, does that mean I'm a prophet?
		No.
		I hope it doesn't.
		Anyway, I hope it doesn't.
		It just means that I saw it coming.
		That's all.
		Wildcard Line, you are on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's me.
unidentified		Art, this is Jim calling from the Pacific Northwest in Aberdeen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		The reason I'm calling is I was on your show once before the night you had Sue Kovash on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I wanted to tell you about a case that I investigated here on the subject of UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, are you an officer of the law?
unidentified		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had a feeling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go right ahead.
unidentified		November 26, 1979, at 10.50 p.m. here in Grace Harbor County, we had an object come down.
		It was seen over a distance of 40 miles.
		It stopped traffic in both directions on the highway.
		I was able to go back and speak to witnesses probably six or seven years after the fact, and I located two dozen witnesses.
		There's two parts to this event.
		The object crashed, and the local newspaper headline the next day said, UFO crashes in Elk River.
		And it went on for three days.
		There was a search and all that.
		I ended up sending in my FOIA requests and approached NORAD, other organizations, and basically they state that it never happened.
		And I just wanted to throw that out there as another example of how we're not told the truth.
		And I am the gentleman that spoke to you and mentioned that I was a state section director for MUFON as well as being a law enforcement officer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't doubt it for a second.
		I don't doubt it.
		We tend to rewrite history as a general rule.
		Usually we wait an appropriate amount of time before we begin revising.
		However, in the case of UFOs, we do immediate revision.
unidentified		Absolutely.
		In the crash retrieval case, too.
		There was also residents that I've even had people who are in logging companies now who were loggers back then and executives now who claim to have almost gotten into fistfights with soldiers on the logging roads, not because they cared one bit about UFOs, but they wanted to go into the area to work and they were denied access.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I sincerely appreciate your report and believe every word of it.
		Thank you very much.
		Really typical.
		I get so much information from law officers regarding this topic.
		As a matter of fact, I've got a couple I've just been biding my time to read you, and I will the next day or so.
		Tomorrow night in the first hour of the program, Frances Emma Barwood Is going to be on.
		You're not going to want to miss that.
		She's running for office, and I'm not going to steal her thunder tonight until you will let her sort of announce it for you tomorrow.
		So, Francis Emma Barwood from Arizona tomorrow night, followed by Gerald Salente.
		Gerald Salente is a very, very interesting fellow.
		We had, he's from the Trends Research Institute, and a couple of weeks ago, Glynn Moulton Howe interviewed him on environmental questions.
		And he is, without question, an environmentalist and one who watches trends, real trends.
		As a matter of fact, has a book called Trends 2000.
		So we're going to be interviewing Gerald Salente tomorrow in the second hour of the program following Frances Emma Barwood.
		It's going to be a very, very interesting program tomorrow night.
		Do not miss it.
		On the first time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, Art.
		This is Paul from St. Pete, Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Paul.
unidentified		Hi.
		Well, this is cool.
		I got all of you.
		Two things.
		I was stationed in Sicily, right in Segonella, right there by Mount Edna.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		For years.
unidentified		I mean, actually, at this time of the year, the volcano is always active.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was active in the early 90s for a period of activity.
unidentified		Right.
		Actually, I was involved in the when it erupted in 92.
		We ran, I was in a squadron HC-4, and we ran like, not rescue, well, it was kind of rescue, but it was like what we did was we took like huge cement blocks and we dropped them in the path of the lava.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Trying to divert the lava away.
unidentified		Right.
		And a couple of us actually, you know, we drove up to Zephriana.
		It was like at the top of the hill.
		And we actually got to see the lava moving towards the town and stuff.
		And it was really wild to see it.
		Because actually one time it hit the tree.
		It hit a tree.
		Like a tree was in the path.
		And the tree just exploded.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		That's exactly what they do.
		They kind of explode.
		Now, let me tell all of you a little story.
		Thank you very much.
		We had, and I say had as in past tense.
		I just got a call from Keith Rowland, my webmaster, and he said, Art, you're not going to believe it, but it looks as though the website that I found, which has a live cam looking at Aetna, has shut off all foreign or at least U.S. internet people.
		They have actually removed our access from the U.S. and it looks as though we did it, probably bringing their server to its knees over there.
		So they literally locked us out.
		Can you believe it?
		Fortunately, before that occurred, we recovered quite a number of photographs of Aetna yesterday, during the day, and then into the evening and nighttime hours.
		And we've got the photographic proof on the website.
		So even though they apparently have, within the last hour, locked all U.S. internet people out because of us.
		Sorry about that.
		We did preserve the photographs in question, and they are on my website now.
		So I strongly suggest you go take a look.
		It's at www.artbell.com.
		And you can look at Aetna yesterday during the day and then into the evening hours, and you will see, as you get into the nighttime hours, vertical displays of lava blown into the air, three streams of lava coming down three separate sides of Aetna.
		And we caught all of that before they removed access.
		So even though you cannot directly go to the site any longer because we caused them trouble, you can still see the photographs.
		They are on the website.
		Go take a look.
		You know, there's nothing like your own eyes.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Will, WTY, Madison, Wisconsin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		been some time since I've heard from you.
unidentified		Oh, I've been down in Egypt and Russia and Europe and...
		Researching origins of tribes, but I won't get into that.
		we've been having some real big meetings uh...
		the average people coming to meetings in northern minnesota with me Trying to get the wolf off the endangered and threatened list.
		Just like the people down south want the alligator off the endangered and threatened list.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You want to go hunt wolves?
		Will, will, will.
		You want to go hunt wolves?
unidentified		We want to bring their population down by trapping them like they used to in the old days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		although that's so cool i mean what you're going to should you do so the wolf one hundred shoot killer put it out of it Well, that's what they make night vision for.
unidentified		Oh, Art.
unidentified		You know, you're a very intelligent man, but you try with night vision and try and find a wolf in thick timber.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if he's there, you'll see him with night vision.
unidentified		Through the trees?
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, not behind a tree, obviously.
		Listen, it's like coyote.
		Coyotes are very wily, believe me.
unidentified		And Art, you know, you don't want to put a bullet in a tree.
		I mean, don't you love trees?
		Aren't you a tree hugger, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		You aren't?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		And that Victor, he's a scam artist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, now you've jumped subjects on me, Will, which you always do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wolves to Victor.
unidentified		Wolves to Victor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you know, the way they used to trap wolves is, in my opinion, cruel as hell.
		And I'm going to be, you're going to have to convince me of the harm that wolves are doing before I say it's a good idea and then if it is and if they need to be pinned then they ought to be killed humanely not left to try and chew their leg off before somebody can get to them the next day.
		I'm not favor that.
unidentified		I will.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hi Art.
		You should have been expecting this call.
		Brett from Denver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Brett from Denver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How you doing?
unidentified		Oh, pretty good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And yourself?
		All right.
		Do you have any idea what Green Bay is going to do to Denver?
unidentified		Well, I know what Denver is going to do to Green Bay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, come on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Get real.
unidentified		I'm looking at 2120 Broncos.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In your dreams.
unidentified		Broncos have the heart, and they've also got the spirit this time.
		Really?
		They want it for John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, spirit and heart, yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I know John wants it, and I know John would like it before he retires.
unidentified		They've also got one other man that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it's just not to be.
unidentified		They've also got one other man that Green Bay can't stop, Mr. Davis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, yeah, you know, Davis is great, but he's not as great as Levins.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
		Now, I've got to give Green Bay a lot of credit.
		It's going to be a close game, a lot better than what the lines think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think the lines are right.
		I think so.
		I'll tell you this.
		You know what the headline in the Las Vegas paper was earlier today?
		Yesterday now?
unidentified		No, I haven't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		These sports books, you know, we have legal betting here.
		They took the biggest bath in.
		Are you there?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They took the biggest bath in all history on these two games this last weekend.
		I mean, they really took a bath.
		They lost a lot of money.
		You're getting a call.
unidentified		No, that's okay.
		Go ahead.
		Why is somebody calling you at...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Coming up on 4 o'clock in the morning there?
unidentified		I have no idea.
unidentified		It's coming up on 4.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Weird.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, they took a bath, lost a lot of money.
unidentified		Poor sports books.
		I'm going to tell you right now that Denver's going to pull one more upset, one more rabbit out of the hat.
		Like you said, the quickening is coming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That wouldn't be a rabbit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be an elephant.
unidentified		Well, you've said the quickening is coming, and everybody has said it's going to be a cold day in Hades before the Broncos win the Super Bowl.
		Well, guess what?
		It may be a cold day in Hades.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it may be, but you call me up.
unidentified		You'd be sure to call me up after the 25th, all right?
		I will.
		All right, we'll see you later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
unidentified		This is Tim in Illinois.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Tim.
unidentified		How you doing this morning?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I'm here.
unidentified		I hope you and Ramona get to feeling better soon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm better enough to do the program, that's for sure.
unidentified		Good, good.
		Hey, listen, Art.
		I tried to get through the other night when you had Bob O'Dean on there.
		Robert O'Dean, yes.
		Yeah, yeah.
		He, you know, you ask him.
		Well, I don't want to be overly critical, and I know how you operate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Be as critical as you want, I don't care.
unidentified		You ask him like half a dozen times for specifics on what was told to the CIA director.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
unidentified		And he never did give it to you.
		He was always evasive.
		Don't you feel a little disheartened by that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Robert had a sense of his own butt.
		And maybe he figured that if he were to say it, he'd lose his butt, if you follow me.
		And so it's his choice.
		It was my duty to ask and his option to not answer.
unidentified		Yeah, well, you know, you tried.
		You asked him several times.
		I just, you know, wanted one instance, one specific instance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		Listen, my show's over.
		I'm out of time.
		I've got to go.
		So you get the honors.
		You know how to do that?
unidentified		So long, America, from coast to coast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And points well beyond.
		All you can looks up there.
		See you later, too.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This has been Coast to Coast AM.

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