Art Bell

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Nov. 9, 1997 - Art Bell

01:57:24

Dreamland with Art Bell - Dr. Bruce Goldberg - Out of Body Experiences. LM Howe - Pfisteria, Wind Storms

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30:15

bruce goldberg

49:34

linda moulton howe

17:43

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Dreamland.
		If it's another Sunday, it's another Dreamland.
		Well, that's from somewhere.
		Yes, Meat Press is celebrating its 50th anniversary.
		Congratulations, guys.
		I'm Mark Bell, and of course, this is Dreamland.
		Tonight's a bit of a twist.
		We're going to have Linda Multenhow because of the amount of information she has for us for one hour, one full hour with Linda Multenhow in Philadelphia.
		Then comes Dr. Bruce Goldberg, who's got a brand new book called Peaceful Transition.
		And along with other things, he's going to talk about dimensional travel and how you can do it.
		Not just to the next dimension, but through five, if not more.
		Should be very, very interesting.
		And then now, Emmy Award-winning documentary producer, investigator into crop circles and animal mutilations, general science reporter.
		She carries quite some number of titles, as well as once Miss Idaho and the Miss America beauty pageant.
		I should add that every now and then, shouldn't I?
		Here from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is Linda Moltenhow.
		Linda, welcome to the program.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, everywhere the media is now asking what El Niño might do this winter or has already done this fall.
		El Niño is Spanish for child, also meaning the Christ child.
		The name originated with South American fishermen frustrated by cycles of unusually warm Pacific Ocean water that emerge every three or five years, often around December, and interfere with their normal fishing routines.
		But this year, El Niño came faster, warmer, and covered more than 6,000 miles by the end of the summer, not December.
		Already, the Pacific hurricane season has been the most intense on record, and the raging spinning winds have been blamed on El Niño.
		In the news coming into Dreamland was a story update about Hurricane Rick now at 106 miles an hour off the coast of Acapuco.
		Another one off of Acapuco.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they don't need to get hit again, and they'll get mudslides, and there will be deaths.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what an incredible year, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and it's the repetition of these storms.
		Another furious wind blew into Colorado on October 25th, producing one of the worst blizzards on record and raising more El Niño questions.
		Winds were clocked at 120 miles an hour, which is much more than the current 106 mile an hour hurricane off of Bacopuca.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, what's happening there is obviously the jet stream is literally coming down on deck.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I was coming to is that in the wake of that 120 mile an hour sort of inland hurricane in Colorado, the U.S. Forest Service discovered that 20,000 acres or about 30 square miles of spruce and fir trees in the Route National Forest near Steamboat Springs were literally pulled out of the ground, roots and all, or snapped off at 50 or 60 feet above ground.
		The Rocky Mountain News quoted United States Forest Service spokeswoman Denise German as saying, quote, it's massive.
		It looks like someone took a comb and just combed the trees down, unquote.
		The reason is that the high winds were easterly and all the trees fell in the same direction.
		Normally, high winds in Colorado come from the west, not the east, and the trees had difficulty withstanding the unexpected force and direction of the wind.
		Was this another calling card of El Niño?
		Well, the general consensus, as you just suggested, is no, that the hurricane force winds in Colorado were related to an unusual dip downward in the jet stream.
		But since we live in such an interconnected world, warm water in the Pacific Ocean might ultimately cause air disturbances that provoke the jet stream to move more erratically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It might.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And if we're in a true global warming trend and not simply a perturbation in the Earth's natural cycles, computer projections indicate that in global warming there will be more severe weather extremes.
		Ecologists and biologists now wonder how plants and animals on coastlines will be affected by temperature changes because it's both water and air.
		One organism that's caused so many problems on the east coast of the United States from Maryland to Florida might not care whether it's warm or cold as long as the water it's in is saturated with fertilizers and pesticides and other pollutants.
		That's the Physteria dinoflagellate that I've reported so much about this past year.
		So far, no one has been able to kill it with temperature changes, salt, or even sulfuric acid.
		Dr. Joanne Burkholder at North Carolina State in Raleigh, who discovered Physteria, tried immersing the dinoflagellate in sulfuric acid for a half hour, and it still survives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holy smokes.
unidentified		Yep.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Burkholder told me in previous interviews that she thinks the organism only goes into its fish attack mode when the air and water temperatures are warm, but no one knows for certain.
		And now the BBC in England discussed hysteria in last Monday's Here and Now report and the possibility that the indestructible organism might be headed for the North Sea in an unusual way.
		Here is BBC reporter Tom Mangold from London commenting on his interview with Warwick University professor Jacqueline McGlade, who will be in charge of Britain's coastal waters beginning January 1998.
		Here is BBC reporter Tom Mangold.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I told you about it Friday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here it is, folks.
unidentified		What we were saying was that the sphere has now broken out in a major way on the East Coast.
		In the United States.
		In the United States.
		It's been spreading north.
		As you know, it attacks first self-ish and human beings who inherited air survival.
		Every evidence indicates it has been transported across the Atlantic and dallas water.
		From vessels across in Port Wilmington.
		About Wilmington, North Carolina.
		I don't about Wilmington, Delaware.
		And that theory is here.
		The question now is, what will trigger it?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And the woman in Warwick, she is convinced that she has seen hysteria in the North Sea waters under a microscope?
unidentified		No, I don't think she's quite so much.
		What's happened is she has seen a confidential report which she can't talk about on air, which indicates that hysteria exists on the German side of the North Sea.
		And now that's true, that's very interesting, because the German side really is much colder and less hospitable than the British side.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And how did this come to be known on the German side?
unidentified		Because, and I can't give this away, you'll have to get it out of it yourself, because somebody who cares commissioned an investigative report history.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		What's the attitude of the English government?
unidentified		Well, the attitude here is very positive, which is that we're going to investigate and find out what the problem is.
		It's quite interesting.
		The British, together with the Americans, proposed an investigation of ballast water crossing the Atlantic.
		And they wanted the U.S. Coast Guard to fund it.
		It was an amazingly cheap trial.
		I think it would have come out at about £80,000.
		And sadly, the proposal was turned down by the U.S. Coast Guard.
		Why?
		Well, I don't know.
		You'll have to ask them, really.
		If it would have been a clinical trial to establish how much hysteria crosses the Atlantic, whether there's anything in the ballast water process that kills it, the answer is I think they're almost certain there's nothing.
		And the extent of the danger, not only of the spread of hysteria around the United States coastal shores.
		Because once you've established that these vessels are picking up hysteria and dumping it in the other ports, then you can immediately begin action to stop them taking in ballast water in the estuary waters.
		And in those areas of the United States that one could technically call infected areas, you could then say, fine, ballast water must be exchanged out at sea.
		Well, we know there are no hysteria.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now, Art, I have talked with a producer of that particular program because the professor was out of town the last three days, so I was not able to talk with her directly.
		The producer of that Here and Now report told me tonight that he thought that she had found or isolated the cyst version of the feisteria in some North Sea water, and I will report on that in a future program when I've been able to interview her directly.
		But this would be quite a step if, in fact, they had found the cyst version, because remember, Dr. Burkholder said that she felt that the cyst, we'll call it the stage, or there's 21 cycles in the stage that pisteria can go into.
		And when it's in this cyst, it's almost like a little stone.
		And it can float, it can drop down into mud, and no one knows how long it can stay in that form before it hits the kind of nutrient-rich waters that seems to provoke it into action.
		So that is a story to follow up, as well as the Coast Guard.
		This seems to me like an extremely intelligent and legitimate research project to see if the ballast water in ships moving up and down the coast of the United States, where we know fisteria has been and in and out of the Chesapeake Bay and North Carolina and so forth, and that these ships cross the Atlantic and they go into the North Sea, into England, and to other places and even go to Australia.
		Could ships be transporting the Fisteria around the world?
		And if so, will we see it begin to have outbreaks in other parts of this planet?
		That is what the professor in England now wants to study this coming year officially for the British government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, I want to ask you two questions.
		Both are soliciting an opinion from you.
		The visteria thing is very scary.
		Is it possible, in your opinion, that visteria could ultimately, under the right conditions, infect, I'll use that word, the whole world's oceans?
unidentified		Could that happen?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, see, so far, Dr. Burkholder in her research has said that she feels it is only in a, we'll call it an attack mode when it's not this peaceful algae, the attack mode when it is in warm temperatures that are filled with nutrients that we would relate to pesticides and fertilizers.
		Now, in these other stages, if it floats, it could float literally through the oceans, I suppose, but no one has ever looked for it.
		And this is going to be the very first time in the North Sea and around the coast of England that anyone will actually look for the Phisteria dinoflagellate in whatever form, cyst form or other form.
		And this is a professor that I would like to follow up with when she is back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I was trying to listen between the lines, and it was as though he couldn't quite tell us everything and was referring us to someone else.
		One place we don't want to see pisteria is in the very warm El Niño heated waters in the West.
		That would not be a good place for it, particularly off the coast of Mexico, which regularly dumps a lot of stuff into the water.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, one thing working in our favor is that even in the lab, when they had water that had pisteria in it, if they took something and stirred that water up, the pisteria seemed to back away from being whether it was in its algae form or the amoeba form and wanted to turn back into the cyst.
		In agitated water itself may have some inhibiting effect on this dinoflagellate.
		And we are clearly working with something that is a mystery and unknown.
		But I think what's important about the BBC's focus in this program last week about ballast water, that even Australia had a real problem because Japanese ships in the last few years were transferring ballast water into Australian harbors, not purposely, but this happened and they ended up with an organism in Australia that could only be found in Japan.
		And there was a Dr. Gustafson who did a tracking trying to find out how this disease was getting into the waters in Australia.
		And there was only one way in the ballast water of the Japanese ships leaving Japan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Linda, one other question, an opinion question before the bottom of the hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In view of the reports you've had tonight, would it be your opinion that we are undergoing a cyclical climate change or that we are at the beginning point of a permanent climate change?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I think we are in a very serious time of damage everywhere we look and that scientists are not sure what's happening.
		And after the bottom of the hour, I'm coming back with an extremely important interview that I did Friday with a scientist in Georgia who is now so concerned that not only are we losing sea turtles and that there are the pisteria problem,
		but that in the last two years there has been a rapid expansion of disease that is hurting coral and the coral reefs in Florida at a rapid rate.
		And this, in this interview with him, is the discussion of the bigger issues that I think are facing all of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, it's a $64 trillion question.
		And even that might underrate it.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is the bottom of the hour.
		My guest this hour with an expanded report really is Linda Moulton Howe from Philadelphia.
		Coming up at the top of the hour, after the top of the hour, it's Dr. Bruce Goldberg, and we will travel dimensionally.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Dreamland.
		This is Dreamland with Art Bell.
unidentified		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am, an expanded report underway from Linda Molten Howe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I think one of the most important questions we face right now on earth is we can all feel and see the changes.
unidentified		And the question is, are they a little hiccup?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or is something permanent underway headed towards some sort of events?
		All right, away we go once again to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, unless you are listening to our affiliate there, in which case you're already in Philadelphia.
		But here is Linda Bolton now.
		Go ahead, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Art.
		Well, Joanne Burkholder's discovery of hysteria and her struggle to convince the North Carolina political system and the health system that there was a serious problem was a kind of David and Goliath story.
		And Robert De Niro's Tribeca Productions with New Line Cinema has now bought up the feature film rights to tell the story.
		And Rodney Barker's book, And The Waters Turned to Blood, that first introduced this amazing story to the public, is going to be out in a new softcover edition in March of 1998 with a very large update, including his testimony before Congress in September concerning this,
		along with others, that the federal government needs to take this issue seriously and can't rely on just the state governments to address the problem.
		So you'll be hearing more about that in the coming few months, and I'll keep reporting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the cinema people ought to try and borrow his title for the movie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a good one.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		Well, scientists think that fees are been around for a long time in a peaceful algae state until this decade.
		And as human populations, farms, and industries grew, more pesticides and fertilizers, including chicken and pig waste, were put onto lands near rivers and lakes.
		Those chemicals and waste seeped down into groundwater and into the rivers and lakes and eventually in runoffs into the oceans.
		All of that pollution combined has apparently reached some kind of threshold concentration that has provoked hysteria into changing from its peaceful algae plant stage to its vicious amoeba animal form that attacks fish, crabs, and just about anything in the water around it.
		That same pollution is suspected in the disease and deaths of other water animals now, such as sea turtles, tropical fish, manatees, and perhaps now even coral reefs.
		Dr. James W. Porter, professor of ecology and marine sciences at the University of Georgia in Athens, spoke this weekend at Wellesley and Smith Colleges in Boston about his research into rapidly spreading and mysterious diseases among coral reefs from Key Largo to Key West, Florida.
		Both the number of diseases and the number of species affected has increased dramatically in less than two years.
		Here is Dr. Porter.
unidentified		Over the last year, we've seen an alarming increase in the amount of disease amongst reef-building corals.
		For instance, of 160 stations that we're surveying annually, in 1996 there were 25 stations with disease, and in 1997 there were 94, which is a 276% increase in the number of locations exhibiting disease in the Florida Keys.
		And one of the things involved in this study is that I feel privileged in being able to take data in a way that will actually give the scientific community and the lay public the real facts about what is happening.
		That's why these numbers are so frightening, because there's no way to dismiss them and say, oh, they're just arm-waving scientists, or to dismiss them by saying, well, the only reason you saw an increase in diseases is because you're more aware of them now.
		That's not what happened.
		We took the data in a way that precluded observational bias.
		And after we did that, and after we worked so hard, those were the hard numbers that we came up with.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Over a 270% increase.
unidentified		And that's in the number of places exhibiting disease.
		You know, the numbers that I haven't given you yet are about the number of species exhibiting disease are equally frightening.
		In 1996, we were only finding nine of 44 species exhibiting disease.
		But by 1997, there are 28 species of the 44 that we're monitoring.
		That's a 211% increase in the number of species exhibiting disease.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So the disease is spreading and the number that it is affecting is increasing as well.
unidentified		Exactly.
unidentified		And we need to find out whether those increases are continuing and if we possibly can, what the causes for those increases are.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Is it possible that all the coral could be wiped out?
unidentified		That's very unlikely.
		Most natural populations of organisms contain at least some that are resistant to whatever diseases are coming through.
		This is true within human populations as well.
		And again, I think the key here is to know eventually, if we can, what the origin of these diseases are.
		So, for instance, some of these diseases are so new that we don't know whether it's a bacterium, a virus, a fungus, or a protozoan infected.
		And, you know, until you know the origin of the disease, it's hard to propose either ways to stop it or to know even if it's a problem that we should attempt to stop.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you're seeing diseases that you've never seen before, we have to step back and assume for a moment that the coral may be also in the same predicament, though, let's say, that's the sea turtle, that the immune systems are not geared up for what's attacking them.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And if we are now in a vicious cycle in which there are new organisms that are attacking that the immune systems are not able to send off, it seems to me like it's like a collapsing dynamo.
unidentified		It is.
		And you know what's really fascinating here?
		We don't even know if the lower invertebrates that include sponges and corals have a functional immune system.
		We have no idea what the basic biology of these organisms is that would allow them to become susceptible to these new diseases.
		It's quite extraordinary.
		You know, it's easy to think in terms of bacteria which would eat the flesh of the coral, and as I say, we do see this, and Vibrio is an example of that.
		But one of the diseases we're following, which we're calling swelling disease, is a disease that seems to attack the osmoregulatory ability of the coral, that is its ability to retain and process water.
		We don't know of any disease that does anything like this with vertebrates.
		We're dealing with new classes of problems which we, as biologists, are unprepared to solve.
		And how has this just suddenly emerged in the environment?
		Well, one of the ideas is, as you articulated, which is that as the stresses to the near-shore environment build up, an organism's ability to resist these multiple assaults finally get to the point where healthy organisms are debilitated in their ability to fend off disease and then they become susceptible.
		I'm not suggesting, of course, here that the diseases, these new diseases that we're seeing are new to the planet.
		I think they've been here for a while, but they were in such low level that they've never been seen before.
		And now, all of a sudden, they're finding that environmental conditions favor their expression.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And if the environment favors their expression and we have more and more population and more and more industrial pollution, where do you project this into the next five years if we can't get this control?
unidentified		We're in real trouble here.
		There's no doubt about this.
		I don't know why the federal government and the world government as a whole isn't being much more honest about problems that we humans face on planet Earth.
		Let's take a few numbers here.
		We've got 275,000 species of described marine organisms, and that's of a total of maybe 1.5 million described species of plants and animals on the Earth.
		Now, some estimates are that it could be as many as 40 million on Earth.
		But even if we take the 275,000 as our estimate of marine species, one estimate puts 2,000 of these already extinct.
		And this process is only going to accelerate as we accelerate our salt on the nearshore environment.
		What do we do to get this turned around?
		Well, one of the things that we have to do is to protect the watersheds, both coastal and riverine watersheds that empty into the ocean.
		This has been proposed in what has turned out to be a very controversial suggestion by the federal government that we create for all of our major rivers and streams a protected riparium zone.
		This, of course, addresses the issue of private land ownership and how it can be used.
		But we're talking about issues of clean water here and survivorship of coastal zones.
		So I think there are several goods that are achieved by this.
		I mean, we put guardrails on our highways.
		Why don't we put natural guardrails on our rivers?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It's an excellent question, but look at what happened in the state of North Carolina.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		They are still fighting the issue of even acknowledging that hysteria exists and is a major problem.
unidentified		I followed that controversy pretty closely.
		And from a scientific point of view, Dr. Burkholder has done a marvelous service for the state of North Carolina and for the United States in general.
		There is no doubt about the fact that most of the conservation measures that science recommends are going to create some economic hardship for some individuals.
		But the question here is, whose jobs are being protected by doing nothing?
		You know, the fishermen in North Carolina particularly are amongst the most proactive in saying, these are estuaries where we have fished for generations.
		These are our jobs, and we want this river body cleaned up.
		So if there's some inconvenience to people on land for creating these riparian zones, well, that's only one piece of the puzzle.
		I mean, we've got an environmental thing that has to be done here, and we just need to get on to doing it.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And isn't the bottom line on everything that we have been living a short-term environmental policy for so long because of political and industrial priorities that we are now facing the possibility that we've cut off our nose to spite our face because if we end up on a planet where none of us can live, what have we accomplished?
unidentified		That's right.
		Human beings have very short-term sort of attention spans.
		You know, I think the entire human race sometimes has attention deficit disorder.
		If you look at the rate at which species are going extinct on the Earth, one estimate, if you assume, let's say now using a high estimate of the 40 million species on Earth, that's both plants and animals, 40 million species.
		One estimate is that we're losing species at a rate of 25,000 a year.
		And the only time in the history of planet Earth that this kind of extinction rate has occurred is 65 million years ago when a giant asteroid hit the Earth.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And the dinosaurs were wiped out.
unidentified		And that's right.
		The dinosaurs were wiped out.
		And it's awful to think that the impact of human beings on the Earth is that of an asteroid smashing into the planet.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		If you see another 270% increase in the destruction of the coral, let's say in 98 to 99, what is the worst case that you can see over the next three, four, five years for the teas in Florida?
unidentified		I'm very concerned about this.
		We need to know, the other thing we need to know is what conditions have created the fact that so many new diseases have become so virulent at this point in time.
		So in addition to the environmental surveys that we're doing, we've initiated a host of water quality assessments that should help us understand whether it's something about the water column that is promoting these disease increase.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And the multi-legged and deformed amphibians that have affected the world, could that be connected here, someone?
unidentified		Oh, yes, I don't see that that's a stretch.
		You know, the thing is, the natural environment is giving us these little cries and whispers.
		Oftentimes, what we see is the end result, which is the extinction of a species, such as the loss from the continental U.S. of the ivory-billed woodpecker, the loss of the passenger pigeon, obvious examples.
		But before things get to that, before a species goes extinct, there's usually a period of stress, population reduction, and disease.
		And these are the early warning signs that should allow us humans to wake up, understand what's going on, and institute policies that will try to prevent that.
		Our own fate could be hanging in the balance eventually.
		Yes, it could.
		I mean, I'd hate to think of a world in which only humans and cockroaches were left on Earth.
		It would be a rather dull diet.
		I think, again, we're back to the issue that we need to control population on the Earth.
		For instance, right now there's 4.5, almost 5 billion people on planet Earth.
		It's been suggested that by 2050, which is really not that far away, that population size could rise to 12 billion.
		And no responsible thinker suggests that with 12 billion mouths to feed on the planet, that it's not going to stress the natural resources as well as the human resources of the planet to make that kind of population viable.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Because the next generations are either going to have an Earth to live on or not.
unidentified		Yes, a lot of college generation students whom I teach are quite cynical and upset about what our generation has done to the planet, and they're worried that we're leaving them with an empty house.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And that last sentence, I think, is in a sense an answer to your first question, are that even scientists now are very seriously worried that we are on a path of increasing extinctions.
		And as Dr. Porter told me that in a normal, healthy coral reef, there are at least 3,000 species of marine life that are dependent upon the coral for protection and for all of the things that the coral reefs provide as a kind of community.
		If the reef changes from an environment that's dominated by corals to one that's dominated by algae, for example, you would expect that fully two-thirds of those species, that would be 2,000 of those species, would disappear.
		And there was a veterinarian at the University of Florida named Elliot Jacobson, who said about the mysterious tumors that have been killing all of these sea turtles all over the world faster than they are born now.
		This quote: He said, There's some worldwide problem going on, and how to tie it all together is not easy, but there seems to be a common denominator.
		And I think we've just heard from a man, Dr. Porter, who is addressing part of the problem from the standpoint of water, but he himself said that he thought that as we're looking into the future in which he would agree that there seems to be scientific data to support that global weather is changing and perhaps in a permanent way, perhaps we are in a permanent warming trend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Two things, Linda, that he said that hit me in the face.
		A 270% increase in disease of species at reporting locations and a 211% increase in species exhibiting disease.
		Now, what he laid on the line, I thought, really appropriately, was, in effect, we're sick of hearing that this is just more reporting going on, and that's the only reason that we're noticing this.
		He, in essence, said that's BS.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got a solid scientific study here.
		That's what I did in the quickening.
		People kept telling me, oh, no, we're just hearing more about it today.
		Baloney.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		No.
		Everywhere we turn around.
		And he also said that two of the big problems, bigger than anybody is realizing, is that in the future, there is not going to be enough water for irrigation if we're going to have this increasing population and the problems of contaminated groundwater and all kinds of water and the issue of how are you going to irrigate the land to provide food for a population that begins reaching 10 billion.
		We have a major issue in front of us in terms of that and the destruction of the rainforest.
		He said that there are serious scientists right now that are looking at the oxygen balance in the atmosphere, which is quite critical and thinner than most people realize.
		And they're trying to project how much plant destruction, if we lost all the trees, would it actually affect the oxygen balance in the air that we breathe?
		We don't know yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're out of time, so give your contact information quickly.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		This is Linda Howe.
		My fax number is area code 215-491-9842.
		That's 215-491-9842.
		My address for mail is Post Office Box 300 in Jameson, Pennsylvania.
		ZIP code 1-8929.
		That's Post Office Box 300 in Jameson, Pennsylvania, 1-8929.
		And for those of you interested in the books and documentaries that I have done on everything from crop circles to animal mutilations, there's a credit card number 800-864-7991.
		That's 800-864-7991.
		And Art, thanks.
		I thought this was great to be able to share.
		This was only a percentage of some of the stories this week.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very, very, very important report, and we will develop the other stories that you and I both know about by next week.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, thank you.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's Linda Molten Howe, and we'll be back with Dr. Bruce Goldberg in a moment.
		This is Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Now, here again, is Art.
		Here again.
		Good morning.
		Health, old habit, hard habit to break.
		Most of the shows are in the morning.
		This one's in the evening, morning in some places.
		Coming up in a moment, Dr. Bruce Goldberg, who has been a guest here on Dreamland before with regard to regression because he's done around 11,000 of them.
		Hypnotic regression into past lives and future lives.
		He's got a new book called Peaceful Transition.
		We're going to be talking about dimensional travel with Dr. Gilberg tonight.
		That should be very interesting.
		Well, if the interview you heard that Lyndon Montow did with Dr. Porter didn't scare the pants off you, then you've got to be just about brain dead.
		The statistics are real.
		Now, the weather temporarily or permanently is changing.
		There's a big storm about to whack Acapulco yet again, a hurricane here in the West.
		And it's obvious the storms are going to begin in the West.
		As a matter of fact, the first major winter storm is approaching the West Coast as we speak.
		All right, now, Dr. Bruce Goldberg, who has been with us before and is back, is a clinical hypnotherapist.
		He has regressed 11,000 individual patients.
		He wrote the international bestseller, Past Lives, Future Lives, as well as Soul Healing and the Search for Grace.
		He has a new book entitled Peaceful Transition, and it billboards that you never need fear death again.
		And The Good Doctor says we can travel dimensionally.
		Here he is from Southern California, Dr. Goldberg.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Welcome.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, Ari, it's a pleasure to reincarnate with you again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		The way to deal with the weather is really very topical to our show this evening because you can do one of two things.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		You can either travel dimensionally and not have to worry about the El Niños, or if push comes to shove, you can consciously die and eliminate the reincarnation cycle and ascend.
unidentified		So either way, we're going to deal with the weather.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
		I suppose that's the fight or flight, is it?
		This would be the flight part of it.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		This would be what we call big-time flight.
		This is dimensional flight.
		Actually, there are three kinds of out-of-body experiences, one of which are, or Two of which are known to your audience as commonly known.
		The first type, the one that gets the most publicity, would be, of course, the near-death experience.
		And I refer to that as unconscious dying because what happens there is at the moment of death, and I do feel that all death is preceded by a near-death experience, is that at the moment of death, the subconscious mind or soul is unfortunately not connected to but separated from its higher self or perfect counterpart, which we call the superconscious mind or higher self.
		And therefore, it will go through a very traumatic process and have to reincarnate, and unfortunately, not in necessarily the most spiritually evolved life.
		So near-death experiences are a form of unconscious dying.
		They are very peaceful, but they don't get you out of the karmic cycle.
		The second kind of out-of-body experience is what your listeners would be most familiar with, would be what we call the classic experiences.
		For example, all dreams.
		We dream for three hours a night, the REM cycle.
		Three hours a night of out-of-body experiences.
		That's been confirmed by everything from Kripner and Olmas worked way back in the 50s and mammothies all the way around the world.
		Then there is runner's hypnosis, people who do long distance running, and they feel the pain, and all of a sudden they lift out of their body.
		They'll flip out while they're running.
		Then there's the reverie states, prayer, religious services, etc.
		Drug-induced states.
		I don't recommend that one, of course, but that will do it.
		And then, of course, extreme stress.
		A lot of the old books you read about out-of-body experiences, the Muldoons and Oliver Fox, et cetera, these were very ill people, sickly people who were constantly ill and therefore going out of the body.
		They were natural for that.
		However, you don't have to be ill to go out of the body.
		In fact, at least 80, 85% of out-of-body experiences are with perfectly healthy people.
		Now, the third kind is the one that gets you out of the karmic cycle, and that's what peaceful transition is about.
		And that's called conscious time, which is really the opposite of near-death experiences, because you can be trained to do this, where you can be trained to maintain a connection with the higher self, the superconscious mind, at the precise moment of death.
		And if you do that, I call that a conscious out-of-body experience, a C-O-B-E.
		When you do that, you're merging with the white light.
		What the white light is, is the higher self.
		And when you do that, you can, as long as you're not too overly encouraged with karma, you can wipe the slate clean and then go on to what we call the soul plane, which is one that mentioned we'll be talking about tonight, and actually literally either ascend or stay around as a master or guide.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, say good and close to the phone for me.
		I want to ask a very basic question first.
		Sure.
		You're in essence saying it is possible with conscious dying to, in effect, short-circuit the otherwise karmic inevitability of endless reincarnations or many reincarnations for a karmic work-off.
		Is that about right?
unidentified		Right.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly what I'm saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, do you believe in God?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I certainly do.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		My work in regression, progress, and therapy has never been more empowering in reference to a monotheistic philosophy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How then, through some sort of human manipulation, even with the great mind that we have, can we in effect short-circuit what a Creator apparently intended for us?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, the Creator did not intend the karmic cycle.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		That's our problem.
unidentified		That's our free will.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		For example, the conscious dying technique I deal with is really, although I have my own paradigms and I've made it unique on certain levels and very what I call user-friendly, so anyone can do this, do this by tapes or by themselves.
		The scripts are all in the book about how to do this.
		This has been done since antiquity.
		We have the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
		We have the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
		We have the Christian Masses, the Requiem Masses, which really are a conscious dying text.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but we've also got the Bible, and somewhere in it, it says we die but once.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you react to that?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, the Bible, you have to understand the Bible has been edited over 18 different times in the last 1,800 years in what are called ecumenical councils.
		What I would like to see what's on the editing room floor, if you will.
		And so therefore, we really don't know what it says.
		As far as what the original version was, in my original book, Past Life, Future Lives, I cite about a dozen different references in both Old and New Testament where we have specific references to, they don't use the word reincarnation, but they do use the concept.
		So that's really unfortunately a debatable point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do believe that reincarnation was actually voted on and lost by some small margin with regard to its placement in the Bible.
unidentified		Is that true?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's actually, it's partially true.
		You're talking about 556 AD when Emperor Justinian, who was married to that unusual woman named Theodora, the Eva Perrone of antiquity, what he did was he had this council.
		That was, of course, after Rome fell, and this was now the Eastern Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, as they called it.
		What happened was he had this vote of 186 to 6.
		Unfortunately, the only Western representatives in those days were the African bishops.
		So this was really what you call a stacked deck.
		The Pope at the time would not sign the anathemas, which was what he was talking about.
		He was imprisoned and eventually died because of that.
		So this was an emperor's viewpoint, not the Pope and not the church per se.
		It was simply the act of one man for the Roman Empire.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, in a sense, the process of death and reincarnation is kind of like life, in the sense that in life we appear to have some sort of free will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're suggesting that in our manner of dying, we do as well.
unidentified		Is that accurate?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, it's not only accurate, but here's the point how this ties into out-of-body experiences.
		You see, out-of-body experiences, if you do that correctly, meaning that with control and with positivity, they're always safe.
		They establish the life after death paradigm.
		That's the whole point of it.
		You can't have reincarnation without out-of-body experiences.
		How does the soul get back into another body?
		So the point of life is not what people think is.
		Most people think life is suffering and, you know, another day deeper in death.
		And that is not my paradigm.
		I'm one of those positive campers that say the purpose of life is spiritual growth, and that's it.
		Everything else is secondary to that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's discuss out-of-body.
		Look, I believe without question, and I don't say this about many things, I believe that out-of-body experiences are absolutely, flat-out, Real.
		I've interviewed enough people like yourself, experts, and a million listeners who have told me they have done it.
		So I believe it's real.
		What I'm not as sure about is that it's safe.
		All right.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me give you an example of not only the thousands of patients that I have worked with.
		Nobody has ever died from an out-of-body experience.
		Now, you may say the near-death experience is a clinical death for a short period of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I wouldn't say that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd say, how do you know?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know because of the many thousands of, not only patients that I've worked with who have done this.
		Many of my patients, probably at least a third of the 11,000 patients I've worked with, I've gotten through out-of-body experiences.
		But here's where I put myself into the scientist-slash experimental subject here.
		I've done this myself several thousand times.
		And if this was dangerous, you and I would be talking on the astral plane or maybe on the soul plane.
		It wouldn't be on the earth plane.
		But let me show you, first of all, let's try how simple and safe this is.
		Would you think that, for example, do you think that hypnosis is dangerous, the state of alpha is dangerous at all?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that hypnosis, if it's used by somebody like yourself in a negative way, could be dangerous.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me show you why.
		Okay, let me show you why that, fortunately, actually, isn't the case.
		But let me give one example.
		Every day of our lives, we spend seven hours in hypnosis in alpha.
		Forget about hypnotherapists, forget about going to a therapist, just living, breathing, and being on the Earth plane and any other planes, too.
		What happens is that you drive a car, you read a book, you listen to your show, you play with your computers, you do anything that requires focus, concentration, and you will be in an alpha level.
		That's scientific fact.
		Now, we dream for three hours of that day, or of a night, if you will, and we go through four hours of waking daydreams.
		Out-of-body experiences are part of that three hours in the REM cycle.
		So the out-of-body experiences are not only not dangerous, but without them, we would die.
		Because I'll tell you what happens in the outer body experiences.
		We're going to be talking about this in dimensions in just a moment.
		I'm going to detail them.
		But we're not going to talk about the astral plane here.
		Now, this is something I want you to listen very carefully about.
		The astral plane is only one dimension.
		We're going to talk about five other ones here that you can go to.
		The out-of-body experiences that we call the dream levels, the REM cycle, the rapid eye movement alpha brainwave as measured by the electroencephalograph, is a time when our soul leaves the physical body in its astral form.
		There's also a causal, mental, and etheric body.
		You'll see there are dimensions that go along with that.
		And it actually recharges itself, just like one of those ever-ready battery charges here.
		It has to be exposed to what we call the cosmic radiation, electromagnetic radiation out there in the universe, to recharge both the astral body, the causal, the mental, and the etheric body.
		Without that, we couldn't possibly survive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, one of the nation's premier scientists, Dr. Michio Kaku, who I have interviewed, believes firmly and absolutely in multi-dimensions.
		So there's no question about that.
		I've read his work, too, yes.
		He's a brilliant guy.
unidentified		But there's a couple of questions that I've got.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First of all, the eternal, look here, doctor, a lot of people die in their sleep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you know they weren't out of their body when they did?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, actually, if they were asleep and in their, most people die in the REM cycle.
		We know that because you see, during the waking day, right now, you and I are, for the most part, in our beta level, a regular conscious mind functioning.
		So when we go into hypnosis or daydreams of yoga meditation, whatever you want to call it, your reverie states, if you will, then you're going into an alpha level, which is relaxing.
		At night, it's the opposite.
		When you're in your dream levels, most people dream about many nightmares, which is why insomnia is the number three problem I deal with when I practice most therapy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Ben, I want to talk about hypnosis for a moment.
		Since you're a hypnotherapist, you're an expert.
		Now, normally it's said, and I believe, that you cannot convince subject A under hypnosis to kill subject B, because this is something subject A would never do.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Moral ethical codes can never be violated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		However.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you were to convince subject A that he's got to kill subject B because subject B is going to kill subject A's wife if he doesn't, and you plant that as a subliminal thought or a suggestion, then what?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Actually, the Manchurian candidate paradigm you're describing doesn't work unless you have drugs or sensory deprivation to go along with it, which is the way the CIA and the KGB and all these other alphabet super organizations do their brainwashing.
		Johns Hopkins University and several other universities have done studies where people were given knives and they'd say, this is your mother-in-law in Let's say the guy hated his mother-in-law.
		You know, you really want it.
		She's ruined your marriage.
		She's ruined your life.
		She's emasculated you in front of your wife.
		And they still don't do it.
		You can't break the moral ethical code.
		The only way you can do that is with drugs, sodium penethol or hallucinogenic drugs, and sensory deprivation, keeping them up all night for three or four weeks at a time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, it takes a whole combination of disciplines used in a wrong way.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Everybody would buy every single commercial they've ever heard advertised.
		They would be bankrupt before they were nine years old if there wasn't for that conscious mind proper defense mechanism as a screener here.
		So that's really what is the saving grace.
		But let's talk a little bit about these dimensions.
		Now, this is kind of interesting.
		People are familiar with the astral plane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		What they may not seem to be familiar with is the fact that there's two astral planes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's just for a second assume they're not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Give me the 101 on the astral plane.
unidentified		What is it?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Astral plane is a dimension that we go to when we cross into spirits, clinically die.
		Your lost loved ones, including animals, by the way, animals do go to the astral plane, too.
		Oh, yes, poltergeists and ghosts that people perceive, hopefully not the Amityville horror, but any kind of spirit, the spirit manifestation they would see are really the astral entities, if you will, astral bodies.
		So the astral plane is what people would associate with, I call this astral voyaging, just leaving the body at night and the dream levels and any of the experiences that I mentioned.
		A lot of the psychic, all of our psychic abilities are psychic phenomena, telepathy, precognition, all these experiences of retrognition, all these things occur and come from the astral plane.
		In fact, the astral plane has a museum up there.
		It's very interesting.
		I've been there myself.
		Where you can actually, where all of our inventors get their ideas, where the Edisons and the Da Vinci's and the great Einsteins get their ideas from this astral museum, if you will.
		So the astral plane is the next step up the ladder, so to speak, from the physical plane.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then you said there are two levels of the astral plane.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		If you read about the old classic techniques, they talk about how a person would project to leave their body from the solar plexus region, the stomach region.
		If you do, don't do it because you're going to wind up in the lower astral plane.
		That's where demonics can hang out.
		That's where negative cartoon characters can hang out.
		It's not a fun place.
		It's like being in a biker's bar on a Friday night.
		It's not a fun place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, would you qualify that as scary but not dangerous?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or do you want to back away from your earlier position and say you go there and there could be some danger?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		No, there's no danger.
		It's just a question of having a bad pizza.
		It's just you're just going to have, you're not going to like the experience.
		You're going to have a nightmare.
		Most people have many nightmares when they sleep anyway.
		That's why people wake up with all due respect more neurotic than when they went to bed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is demonic possession then, Doctor?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, demonics are interesting.
		There is no devil per se, but there are demonics.
		Demonics are entities that have been around for, we think, about 15 billion years, give or take, and they just hang out there.
		They've never had a human form.
		Their purpose is to take over the earth and destroy the human race, but they can't do it.
		And we don't know why they can't.
		Is it God?
		Fine.
		But the point is that there are demonics out there who are really nasty creatures.
		They really don't do anything to us if you're protected.
		And all the techniques that I recommend, I use a white light protection.
		So you never have to worry about being possessed.
		You'll never be possessed by doing an out-of-body experience technique.
		In fact, the amount of possession cases that have actually been recorded in history, you could be in one hand and hold a whopper at the same time.
		They're very few and far between.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that, of course, might be true if you just look at those confirmed by the church.
		But if you try to imagine that a lot of people in mental institutions right now diagnosed as schizophrenic, not all of them by percentage may, in fact, be schizophrenic.
		There may be cases, and a lot of people think there are, in those institutions of demonic possession.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		I would say parallel universes, being trapped between parallel universes, explains most of these schizophrenics that aren't purely biochemical.
		And so would Fred Allen Wolfe, the quantum physicist, and several others.
		So I would go along with that rather than demonic.
		They say it with demonic, it would be splitting out split pea soup, and you'd hear some really nasty things happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Now, Doctor, hold on.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		Fascinating stuff.
unidentified		Dr. Bruce Goldberg is my guest from Southern California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm Art Bell and from an area near Dreamland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This, of course, is Dreamland.
unidentified		Now, more of your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was a little I. We haven't started taking calls yet, but when we do, those are the appropriate numbers.
		Dr. Bruce Goldberg is my guest.
		And we're talking about OBEs and really more, how to dimensionally travel.
		And I am one of the dimensionally challenged with regard to that kind of travel, so I'll listen carefully.
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		Well, there you go.
		Back now to my guest, Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
		And Doctor, when I said I am dimensionally challenged, there is no question about it.
		I've been scared to death of OBEs for a long time.
		I just can't make the leap.
		I can't make the jump.
		And I've been close.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Now, I did send you one of my advanced out-of-body experience techniques.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got it.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		And I'm trying to motivate you to do the, Fear is the F-word in spiritual growth.
		When you have fear, you eliminate your ability to grow.
		By the way, just for the paradigm, just so we understand what's going on here, there are 13 dimensions, or planes, as I call them.
		The Earth plane is, and this is important when you listen to the sounds that are characteristic of these planes.
		You'll see a very important weather analogy here.
		The Earth plane is characterized by the sound of thunder metaphysically.
		And it's a plane of, we call it the illusions of reality, the plane of space, time, matter, and energy.
		So this is the Earth or physical plane, the five senses, if you will.
		The astral plane that we were just discussing has a lower, what people would call the bardo state, the purgatory, if you will.
		Some people may refer to that as the hell state, the Swedenborg mystics of the 18th century and others.
		And then there is the, and the lower astral plane, by the way, is a misty or foggy environment.
		You feel confused and bewildered when you go there.
		And there's a presence of very bizarre creatures.
		We've talked about demonics, but they're rare.
		They're just a bunch of cartoon creatures that you don't want to run into.
		The upper astral plane is the opposite.
		You feel very alert, very secure, peaceful, and happy.
		It's the earth-like, beautiful environment with human inhabitants.
		And your telepathic, clairvoyant, and other precognitive abilities are maximized on the upper astral plane, which is what Swedenborg would have called the heaven, if you will.
		Then as you go beyond the astral plane, and by the way, the astral plane is characterized by the roar of the sea as its sound.
		The causal plane is the sound, or the sound of that is the tinkling of bells, and the causal plane is where our Akashic records are kept.
		These are the records and memories of all past, present, and future lives, and even parallel lives.
		And they're kept on what we call electromagnetic computer cards.
		They are not physical items.
		They're actual energy.
		And you have a choice of either reading them, if you will, when you go there, or actually having them appear as a hologram.
		And you'll see that that hologram analogy is going to be discussed a little bit later on when we talk about time travelers.
		That's how they communicate with us.
		So the causal plane is really where our Akashic records are stored, but you can access the Akashic records on what we call learning temples on any of the dimensions, including the earth plane.
		The next plane above the causal plane is what we call the mental plane.
		This is where a lot of the masters, the Jesuses, the Buddhas, etc., would hang out, so to speak, and when they were on the earth plane, they would go there and spend most of their time recharging.
		This is where the gods of most Orthodox religions are supposed to be located.
		This is the source of our moral teachings, ethics, and philosophy.
		Now, what's interesting is about how do you know you're on the mental plane other than the sound of running water, which is its characteristic sound.
		You're floating around the mental plane, or a plane, and you look down and you see blue highways.
		You know you're on the mental plane because the soil is blue, an iridescent kind of blue, leaving, of course, they make their roads through their highways as we do, and therefore you have a blue color to the highways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't mean to be flippant, but Doctor, I can get lost going across to the other side of Perump.
		You know, we're a little small town here.
		What are the chances of going to the place you don't want to go to, the cartoon characters?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I mentioned that before about, remember I told you the old books talk about how you leave mostly to the solar plexus?
		The techniques that I use in these out-of-body experience tapes, when I sent you and several others, what I do is I use a white light protection.
		Automatically, you're going to be now leaving through either mostly the top of the head, which is the seventh chakra.
		You may leave through the sixth or fifth, possibly even the heart chakra, which is the fourth chakra.
		But if you leave from the fourth chakra to the seventh, you're home-free to the upper astral plane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, these chakras are actually places, locations on your body?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		On the astral body, actually.
		They're actually energy centers.
		There are seven of them on the physical, what we call the astral body, but along the spinal cord of the astral body, the top part being, of course, the seventh one being the top of the head, the sixth one is the third eye, the fifth one is the throat chakra, the fourth one is the heart, the solar plexus or stomach region is a third, the genital area is number two, and the tailbone, if you will, is the Casiac, as we call it, is number one.
		And you want to leave from the fourth chakra or above that separates the upper and lower chakras, and really you want to leave at the top of the head, which is going to take you really right fast to the upper astral plane, and you'll have one nice, very positive experience.
		So you don't have to worry about lower astral plane if you use white light protection, which will also prevent the two major problems that most people talk about, which is the paralysis or rigidity, as well as the amnesia, lack of memories of anything that happens.
		And that can be prevented very quickly and easily by using what we call white light protection techniques.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a lot of people around who are generally thought not to do their thinking in the higher areas.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		I know, but see, when you leave the body, you want to make the exception.
		Beyond the mental plane, now, and by the way, the mental plane also has, the people, the inhabitants, almost look like angels.
		They walk around with these white cloaks, almost like a very bright white cloak kind of thing.
		They live in houses that look like abstract designs.
		It's a very unusual environment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard this from many people who have had MDEs.
unidentified		Yeah.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		See, near-death experiences, you can go beyond the astral plane.
		Most people won't know that because if they have a near-death experience, they assume right away it's the astral plane and they don't understand these other dimensions.
		And that's why I document these things so people can have a much broader spectrum.
		Beyond the running water of the mental plane, and by the way, the mental plane is where the word AUM, the sound AUM that is used in the Eastern religions mostly, originates from, as the mental plane.
		Now, the etheric plane is the plane of intuition, is the source, actually, of our subconscious mind, and the sound there is the buzzing of bees.
		And this is where our real true forms of intuition and higher levels of being, if you will, experience.
		This is actually the highest of the lowest of the five planes that make up the karmic cycle.
		Beyond the fifth plane is what we call the soul plane, which is what I like to refer to as the DMZ.
		It's a demilitarized zone because it really isn't the higher planes where you would go to ascend to God, yet it isn't part of the karmic cycle.
		It is the last plane where you will have any kind of a body at all.
		The self-realization and ascension will actually occur here.
		The single note of a flute is the sound that's heard on the soul plane.
		This is where the soul goes after it clinically crosses into spirit.
		And you can die on each of these other five planes, by the way.
		It's not just the physical plane, but you can die.
		And you wind up eventually on the soul plane.
		And there you will decide your next life.
		And your masters and guides will be there.
		And of course, your higher self, which is the white light people talk about in your death experiences and any other kind of, by the way, you have white light and tunnels with regular out-of-body experiences too.
		So this is the soul plane.
		In conscious, the conscious dying technique I describe in Peaceful Transition talks about how if you do the unconscious dying, which is the conventional way, which is not the way you want to do it, you will go through a process called the disorienting forces of the karmic cycle.
		And when you get to the soul plane, you'll have to reincarnate in what we call unconscious dying.
		Again, usually more traumatic and neurotic, and you haven't learned your lesson, so it's going to be interest and penalty time.
		If you do the conscious out-of-body experience and consciously die, you avoid the disorienting forces of the karmic cycle.
		And that's where the soul can pretty much wipe this blade clean.
		If you do have to come back and be reborn, it's a conscious rebirth where you're more spiritually evolved.
		And there's a very dynamic case history that I describe in Peaceful Transition of a woman who was dying of cancer, who was very insecure.
		Everybody called her iffy when she was growing up, and I saw her.
		She was almost 70 years old.
		She liked to play the piano, but had arthritis and couldn't do that.
		Her life was a mess, and she just wanted to somehow save her soul for the future.
		So I did a conscious dying technique with her, and she described her spirit guide, which really was her higher self, and she called Shamani.
		And this woman was not of Eastern orientation at all.
		She was just a very basic American, very 50s housewife type.
		And, well, she did die about two months later, and her neighbor, of course, was with her, and she said her death was a very peaceful one, if you will, a peaceful transition, as I call it.
		Well, two years, about eight years later, I worked with a young child from the Midwest whose parents brought her to my office because they thought the child was possessed, if you will, because she was saying strange things before going to bed, etc.
		And the young child's name is Paula, and I work with her, and we did a superconscious mind tap, as I call it.
		And she said, Doctor, my angel wants to say hello to you.
		And I said, Really, what's your angel's name?
		And she said, My angel's name is Shimani.
		And this young girl was describing remnants of the past five years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Obviously, yes.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Okay, and I had her records because I remember I have a good memory.
		And I pulled Edna's chart out, and sure enough, she was giving me, she said, Would you please call me a name that my parents won't allow anyone to call me?
		And I said, What's that?
		And she said, It's Iffy.
		I mean, she just documents a case like you wouldn't believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how did you use that information to treat that young child?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, the young child was actually easy to treat.
		Remember, this was a woman who had a young girl who had spontaneous recall of past lives, which is a characteristic of conscious rebirth.
		She was easy to work with.
		She was a bright young child.
		She wasn't the problem.
		The parents were the problem.
		The parents had the issue, not her.
		And she was great to work with, and she learned a lot about metaphysics, and she had, of course, no background in that, at least by this life anyway.
		And so I worked with her, and she was easy.
		It was the parents that were a little bit difficult, and I had to, you might say, train the parents to leave the child alone and let her be, and she's doing the right thing.
		And the parents said, you mean she's not possessed and she's not psychotic?
		And I said, that's correct.
		And she said, they said, okay, so that was, you know, they were pretty cool about it.
		But it took a little while because these were like the pitchfork staying outside the farm kind of people.
		They didn't cotton to a lot of the things that Jan Paula was doing.
		So this is an example of conscious rebirth, by the way, which is actually a documented case of conscious dying, which is the nice thing about that case.
		But here's an example to show you how a lot of body experiences can really be fun.
		When you go through the soul plane, by the way, there are seven other planes, the 13th plane being the God or nameless plane, to show you my monotheism here.
		And we can't really get information much about the higher planes.
		You can, when you do what I call a soul plane ascension, you can actually be at the soul plane and eat a shot, if you will, and you are allowed to receive certain information.
		But in order to really be an expert on the higher planes, you have to be perfect and simply ascend and go there.
		And so if you have a comic cycle, you're not going to be allowed into the, that's one country club that will not allow your admission.
		There is no cause and effect on the higher planes.
		There's just beautiful eternal eternity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, probably the cosmic equivalent of being a 33rd degree mason.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		The equivalent thereof.
		That's a good analogy.
		But here's an example of a gentleman who called me just last month.
		He went out and got peaceful transition.
		He wanted to do some out-of-body experiences beyond the conscious out-of-body experiences.
		So, of course, I sent him some information about what I call my actual voyaging kit here.
		And he tells me now, he calls me up.
		It's about the end of October, maybe the same week in October.
		He says, doctor, he says, I want to tell you, I went to see you through my body.
		Now, I never saw this person.
		He lives in Massachusetts, in Boston.
		And he calls me, he says, yesterday, I can tell you what you were wearing.
		And I said, go ahead.
		He said, you were wearing a light, you know, a dark blue, short-sleeved turtleneck shirt with gray, like a light kind of gray trousers, and you were treating a blonde, petite woman wearing a light purple object, which is exactly true.
		Absolutely true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, let me tell you another fear I have.
unidentified		Can I do that?
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm a radio talk show host.
		If I were to actually begin to astrally travel, and I began to realize for myself that it were the absolute truth, I'm not sure that I could objectively interview people like you anymore.
		I would turn, this is my fear, I'm telling you my fear.
		I would turn from somebody who would continually ask objective questions into an advocate.
		And that would not be good for me.
		What do you think?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		I disagree, respectfully.
		I do feel that, Ark, you're one of the brightest people I've ever had the pleasure to interview with.
		And I think you're also one of the most open-minded when it comes to having people like me on your show and the shows that you do, period, especially Dreamland.
		I can just tell you from my experiences, in the old days, I had no belief in reincarnation.
		I had no interest in it.
unidentified		I didn't care.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		I was just in pre-dental school, training for my dental program and biochemistry major.
		I wasn't into metaphysics.
		Ever since I've been involved, which has been 25 years now, I have had, I mean, you can say I'm an activist definitely, so therefore you might say, am I losing my objectivity?
		Well, I'm definitely a proponent.
		I will consider all options.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're an advocate.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		I'm an advocate.
		But at the same time, I've also changed my opinions about a lot of things over the years because of my own experiences and what I've worked with with my patients and my own personal experiences.
		I have never had such a great feel.
		How could I possibly work with my patients in doing out-of-body experiences, conscious dying, super conscious mind taps, progression, regression, all the things that I do unless I've done it myself?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The answer is you couldn't.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Now, as a talk show host, you, because, see, not every talk show host I would say this to, and I'm not patronizing, you know, me.
		I'm being astrayed shooter.
		You, I feel, if you had the experience, I think it would give you a much greater love for it.
		I think it would do things that my typical patients do.
		It would open them up to their own, just their own spiritual growth.
		I think it would remove any of the fears.
		You're telling me right now, you're afraid about a body experience.
		I don't think you're afraid of the fact that you would not have someone like me on the show or that you would be an ineffective host.
		I'm being shared with you.
		I think you have to be afraid of the experience.
		Are you afraid to open it back?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm probably trying to rationalize my decision not to do it.
		It's hiding behind my fear.
		That could be absolutely true, but that is kind of a concern, in a way.
unidentified		Sure.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		But my point is, what I'm saying is that here's what I think the karmic aspect of your karmic sub-cycle and what the universe is trying to present to you.
		I think what's going on here is this, and this is what I'd like to do.
		Somehow, some way, if I can in some way be an agent, a William Morris agent here, have you directly, indirectly experience your own out-of-body experience, I think it would make you even better, if it's possible, to even be a better host for what you do because you would have walked the walk, as they say, in Native American culture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Talk to me about time travel.
		It's one of my most interesting subjects, period, time travel.
		It's possible?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		As a matter of fact, obviously, I've done time traveling with my patients for 25 years, taking them to past and future lives.
		But let's just talk about the current situation.
		I have a technique called Access the Akashic Records, which really is a technique of taking people into either the causal plane or allowing them to go to a learning temple to perceive not only their karmic cycle and what's going on with their past and future lives, but also allowing them to traverse the dimensions.
		I also have a technique called fifth dimension travel.
		It's actually a branding tape I just cut out.
		And what you do here is you can actually travel into what we call hyperspace.
		Now, hyperspace is anything beyond the fourth dimension.
		Fourth dimension is time.
		Actually, it's the fourth dimension of the space-time continuum.
		Technically, we call that the fourth dimension of time.
		Anything beyond that, which means parallel universes, which means the astral plane, causal, mental, etheric soul, et cetera.
		this is now hyperspace, which has their own hyper-universes, and you can actually be guided into, in fact, the technique I did on my new fifth dimension tape is to actually have you guide you through a black hole, wormhole, white hole combination.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here's where I automatically have to stop you.
		I've asked almost every guest I've had lately.
		Did you see contacts?
unidentified		No, actually, I didn't.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		I did not.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Zodi Foster's latest movie, which I understand, was brilliantly done, and I have not had a chance to see it yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, dog's got it.
		Well, go see it.
		I want your opinion when you see it.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		But the hyperspace really is very important, because what you can do here, and this applies, by the way, to any of the, if you travel to any of these dimensions, you automatically are in hyperspace.
		Not only can you traverse time, because there is no time concept beyond the physical plane, the Earth plane, if you will, when you enter astral, causal, mental, and thermal soul, you are now in the space-time continuum, which means you can go anywhere and everywhere, and you can overview all past, present, and future events.
		You know who you can also meet now?
		Your favorite people, time travelers.
		Now, this is a very interesting concept.
		There are time travelers.
		We actually mastered time by the 30th century.
		1,000 years from now, we will be time travelers.
		We will send people back into our century and way back into antiquity, going back actually several million years, back to the old dinosaur age, to custom design and cater and affect our spiritual as well as genetic growth.
		These are time travelers that you can meet and have conversations with or telepathic communications with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, the famous quote is, if time travel is possible, then where are all the time travelers?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, where they are are in hyperspace.
		You see, a time traveler functions at a frequency, vibration, and rate that's beyond you and I. They can physically manifest themselves.
		In fact, some of the cases of angelic experiences are really time travelers, not angels per se.
		These are time travelers who are, they're not perfect beings, you understand.
		They're us, but they're us in the future.
		And what they do is they help us out in our own spiritual growth because our spiritual growth is their spiritual growth since they are our great, great, great, great, great grandsons and daughters, you see.
		So it's to their advantage, if you will, to do that.
		They do manifest themselves, but they're not going to walk out with a little label that says, hello, I am a time traveler.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then, might I imagine, because there's a classic, well, then if you can travel to the future, you can be rich.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, but it's a karmic clause.
		It's a karmic clause, for example.
		Here's an example.
		I developed the concept of progression therapy back in 1977.
		I do age progressions as well as future life.
		So people say to me, doctor, why don't we just go to Santa Anita, take me to the New York Stock Exchange, go over to the commodity market.
		Here's a karmic situation.
		If you're supposed to do that, people who win the lottery, for example, I don't admire them.
		You know why?
		Because this is a support group of millionaire lottery winners who lose all their money and now are in debt and they're waiting every 20 years to get their money back.
		If you're supposed to be rich and famous, you'll be rich and famous.
		You can't cheat the system.
		There's no free ride.
		There's free will, but there's also no free ride.
		So the universe has certain things in mind.
		If you get a lottery number, by the way, you can be on a parallel universe, which is a dimension functioning at the same level that we are, except the events are somewhat different depending upon your actions.
		So you can get a parallel universe lottery number, which in our current universe will not hit, but it will in that universe.
		And that's why you really can't use this for gambling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then we can't imagine that the rich, the powerful, the presidents, the senators, the congressmen, the heads of Microsoft have traveled and have used this information.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		They've gone to the museum in the astral plane.
		I guarantee you.
		Bill Gates, I'm sure, has a regular card up there.
		I'm sure he's a regular traveler.
		So was Einstein, so was Edison, so was all of them.
		And I've been there myself.
		I know what the museum is like.
		It's an unbelievable place.
		You have to understand, everything on the astral plane is humongous in size.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Gates probably has frequent flyer miles.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes, he does.
		I think he also controls the computer software in the museum, too.
		You get to copyright on it every time.
		My point is the museum up there is every building looks like a cathedral.
		In fact, our cathedrals, the medieval cathedrals that were built back in the Middle Ages, were really from the astral plane.
		In fact, a lot of things that we do today are really from the astral plane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we're at the top of the hour.
		And when we get back, I want to ask you about altered states, which, of course, is what we're talking about here and how to reach them and whether or many other ways can be used to achieve them as well.
		Various chants, I could name many others, or one you might even make up that would enable you to enter an altered state and begin to travel into these various universes.
		I guess universes, right?
		From an area near Dreamland, Area 51, this is Dreamland.
		This is Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Now, here again is Arts.
		Once again, I do seem to be here.
		My guest is Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
		His latest book of many is Peaceful Transition.
		And I imagine by now we definitely have your attention.
		If you would like to ask Dr. Goldberg question, you know the phone numbers.
		The first-time caller line, 702-727-1222.
		Wildcard line, 702-727-1295.
		And of course, anywhere east of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		West of the Rockies, 1-800-618-8255.
		Now, if you are a talk radio fan, and I make that presumption based on the fact that you're here, and you're tired of missing programs, well, it need not be.
		There is Real Talk.
		It is the new, improved, exceptionally well-built Real Talk.
		It is sensitive, selective.
		Well, what is it, first of all?
		AM-FM radio with a quarter-speed tape deck built in.
		It operates on batteries, or you can plug it into the wall.
		What did you say, Art?
unidentified		A quarter-speed tape deck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		With it, when you buy it from the Z Crane company, unlike when you buy it from somewhere else, you get a 110-minute high-quality tape upon which you would normally be able to record 55 minutes of show on each side, right?
		But with this quarter-speed tape deck, you can record nearly four hours on one side or eight hours on both.
		So you don't miss talk shows anymore.
		It's got a timer built in so you can tell when to come on while it's plugged into the wall at your home.
		And then the next day, you unplug it.
		It operates on batteries.
		You take it to work.
		You take it in your car or truck and listen.
		Your office with headphones because it's got a headphone jack.
		Yep.
		If you're a talk radio listener and you don't have real talk, well, you're missing a lot, aren't you?
		Bob Crane has them.
		Superb Christmas gift for anybody who likes talk radio.
		It's $149.95 delivered to your home with that free tape I talked about.
		Call Bob Crane in the morning.
		Get one on the way at 1-800-522-8863.
		That's beginning, of course, at 7.30 Monday morning.
		1-800-522-8863.
		Now, G-M-X.
		A water conditioner.
		Magnetic.
		Don't think it works.
		Let me tell you a little story.
		I've got a hot tub.
		I love it.
		I got it from my dad back.
		First day I filled it.
		I was so proud of it.
		It had this wonderful composite material, and they said nothing can harm it.
		And in fact, they're right.
		Nothing can.
		But the next day I went out, and there was, I swear, there was an eighth of an inch of salt, or whatever you want to call it, scale, calcium, alkali, salty junk, gunk, all the way around the water line at, on, or attached to, clinging to my composite material.
		And I went, well, I said something and I can't repeat.
		And I called GMX and said, quick, send me a magnetic array.
unidentified		They did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I put it on the output side of the water pipe and went back 24 hours later.
		So I can't really tell you how long it took.
		But inside of 24 hours, all of that was gone.
		That was a good year and a half or more ago.
		And it's never been back.
		So does it work?
		Yes.
		Unqualified, absolute yes.
		But look, you've got a guarantee.
		When you buy, if in 90 days it doesn't do exactly what I say it does, you get all your money back.
		Call GMX.
		That's an ironclad guarantee, and the number is 1-800-406-0469.
		That's 1-800-406-0469.
		GMX is just one of those things that absolutely works, folks.
		Bruce Goldberg, back in a moment.
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		All right.
		Back now to Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
		And Dr. Goldberg, we are going to take calls here shortly, but I wanted to ask you about altered states.
		Now, obviously, when we go OBE, one dimension or many, we are in what you could loosely call an altered state, right?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Altered state of consciousness is also characteristic of seven hours a day of hypnosis, waking hypnosis, daydreams, and any of the out-of-body experiences we do.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		If you want me to just give you a couple of suggestions for people out there how they can actually maximize their out-of-body experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, but I've got a specific question I want to ask first.
		And I began to develop it as we went into the news, and that is, you mentioned in the East they will use a hum.
		Yes.
		In other religions, there are chants.
		Would any chant that you would develop, any chant that you would make up and continually chant to attempt to reach an altered state of consciousness serve?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, it would serve the person if it meant something to them.
		I don't think an Orthodox Jew would relate to a Christian or Buddhist chant, you see.
		You have to custom design your own chants.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was the question.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		It's a matter of something what you relate to.
		Basically, if you try to do out-of-body experiences, the first thing you'd want to do is cut down on any food intake or even fast prior to your out-of-body experience attempt.
		You do not want to eat anything just prior to the actual attempt to leave the body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		You want to eat, when you do eat that day, by the way, it's preferable to eat fruits and vegetables and avoiding meat at all costs.
		You also want to refrain from eating nuts of any kind and especially peanuts, even though peanuts are actually on the pea family, but they do interfere with the out-of-body experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		They just cause digestive issues and your body is too much focusing on that.
		However, there are some other things you can eat which are helpful.
		Carrots, liquids of all kinds will aid the out-of-body experience.
		And interestingly enough, raw eggs.
		So maybe Rocky fits very well with the out-of-body experience.
		You want to completely abstain absolutely at all costs from alcohol, tobacco, and recreational drugs.
		Absolutely.
unidentified		Yes.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		You're only going to interfere with it, and you're not going to do your spiritual growth any good by doing that.
		Warm weather very much favors astral voyaging.
		That's why the summertime people do this a lot.
		If you're doing it at any time of the year, keep your room a few degrees above room temperature.
		It's good advice for any hypnotic level, but definitely for out-of-body experiences.
		Never attempt astral projection during a thunderstorm.
		It's not dangerous because the thunderstorm is the sound of the Earth plane.
		You're sort of like making it impossible to leave the body because you're going to be stuck here with that sound identifying you with the Earth plane or the physical plane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here's a skeptic.
		Now, here's what the skeptic says, and this is from Sue, who says, why don't you invite Dr. Goldberg to come visit you on one of his astroplane field trips, then have him describe what you're wearing at the time.
		That ought to give flesh to the bones of his premise.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		It certainly would, but I think it would scare the pants off of Art if I did that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't care.
		I'd love to see you do it.
		Now, it does not apply anytime when I'm on the air because I've got a studio cam and get a look at that.
		We could certainly arrange something where my studio cam is off sometime.
		And in fact, next time we do an interview, how about that?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		That sounds fine with me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll arrange it ahead of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I assume that you cannot, for example, you could not right now, as you're talking to me, astrally travel.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		No, I wouldn't be able to do that right this very second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but we could make arrangements ahead of an interview we would do in the future.
		And you, you know, we could pick a day.
		I could leave the camera off.
		You could take your best shot.
		And we could then reveal that during an interview.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		We most certainly could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oakadoke.
		One other facts, and then we should go to the phones here shortly.
		Your art, I am currently taking a deaf and dying class in college.
		My professor has stated that when we die, we'll be born again to live another life, to learn from the mistakes we made in this life.
		For example, if a person is an abuser in this life, they'll be a victim in the next.
		I'd like to know what Dr. Goldberg feels about this and if he has any views that would agree with my professor or disagree with him.
		Thank you for your great show, Cassandra in Sacramento.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, Cassandra in Sacramento, your professor is actually half right.
		He's quoting pretty much the Eastern mentality about karma and he's actually doing it with their mentality, which is somewhat negative.
		If you practice conscious dying, you can eliminate coming back as the abuser.
		No matter how bad your life is, no matter how dysfunctional or even evil, if you want to use that word, whatever that term means to you, you can consciously die and wipe this leg clean.
		So your professor doesn't quite have the background with conscious dying techniques, which has been reported all the way back since Plato.
		So that's where I would respectfully disagree a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In a way, though, you're saying you can cheat death.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		No, no, the only way you can cheat death is by having an ace up your sleeve when you're playing cards with the angel of death.
		You really can't cheat death.
		Death is simply a change of dimensions.
		There is no death.
		We're just changing from the earth plane to the astral plane to the south plane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, but death, as you have defined it.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, I haven't used it.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		You're apparently defining death as a physical ceasing of physical processes in the physical process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, no.
		No, for the sake of this comment, I am agreeing completely with you that there are multi-dimensions, that we are in fact reincarnated.
		And you are suggesting that it is possible to, in effect, circumnavigate what otherwise you've got to karmically live down.
		So that, in another way, you're cheating death.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		You see, I haven't used the word death.
		There is no death.
		My definition of death would be the complete cessation of all forms of the universe and all functioning of the soul.
		And that only happens when you ascend.
		And even then you're in eternity.
		So I don't even define the word death.
		Death is not my term.
		It's everybody else's, perhaps, but it's not mine.
		Conscious dying doesn't refer to death.
		It refers to uniting and merging with the higher self at the moment of clinical crossing into spirit.
		That's why I call it peaceful transition.
		I didn't say peaceful death in the title of the book, because to me death is not an earth plane term, and I'm beyond the earth plane in my mentality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you do, of course, use the word death in your book repeatedly with respect to the fact that you no longer must fear it.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, not only that, but I can't use the word.
		I have to use the word that people can relate to.
		People who read this book aren't going to be scholars on conscious dying techniques.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's why I use the word doctor so they could relate to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you are cheating what otherwise chronically will occur.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		But see, if this was a cheating situation, I couldn't do it, just like getting a lottery number.
		If going into the future was so nasty and so negative and so evil and so whatever, then I wouldn't have developed progression therapy.
		None of my patients would have gone into the future and even documented some of their situations.
		It wouldn't happen.
		I would be spinning in the wind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could you go to the future and view the manner of your own death?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure, you can.
		In fact, that's age progression.
		That's very simple to do, actually.
		Oh, yeah.
		In fact, I recommend people doing that because it helps get them over the fear of death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the time of your death.
unidentified		Yes.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, in one of my future books that will be for a little, there's a case of a woman who saw herself dying in Detroit, Michigan a couple years ago, and she avoided that by moving to Florida with her husband for other reasons, not just because of that.
		As it turned out, the very day she was supposed to die, it was on a Saturday night.
		Somebody else was shot on the exact same street location.
		She was supposed to die by being shot by a drive-by shooting, by the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Somebody else was shot right on that same street, on the same location.
		And now, she didn't cause the death of that woman, so it's not like she's not feeling guilty for it.
		But someone was supposed to die, and apparently it wasn't for her in this parallel universe because she saved her own life.
		There's another case of a woman who used the age progression technique.
		This is what I worked with her last summer, June of 96, and she graduated from college and she was going to go to Europe to join her friends.
		She was going to go to Paris in mid-July, and she did my accessing the atonstic record technique, which is out-of-body experiences, about the first part of July, around July 4th.
		And she saw herself dying, so she said, you know, in the plane crash, she goes, well, I'm not going to go.
		I'm not going to go until later.
		So she decided to go at the end of July.
		Her original plans were to go on July 17th, TWA Flight 800, which I don't have to tell you what happened to that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course not.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		230 people died, and she would have been 231, but she didn't because she was able to avoid and save her own life.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		So it's an interesting technique.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, how does saving your own skin in this manner vary from the apparent karmic no-no of using information on the stock market at a lottery or whatever else?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Because if the woman in Detroit, for example, or the woman from, this woman was from New York City, woman who saved her life in the TW accident, if they were supposed to die and they somehow cheated death, they would die anyway.
		When your number is up, that's why I have no fear of death.
		When my number is up and it's not going to be up for a long time, then your number is up.
		And it's not a question of number being up.
		You're simply going to change into another dimension and just like wearing a new super.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you just in essence told us you can change the numbers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you gave us, in fact, an example of that.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		I don't have immortality as a technique.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		At least on the Earth plane.
		The soul is immortal, of course, but where our human body is going to fertilize somebody's lawn eventually, no matter what you do, no matter how you slice it.
		But let me just complete a few thoughts so we can go to the other calls.
		Some of the other techniques or some of the other recommendations for maximizing the out-of-body experiences is in addition to having the warm room that I mentioned so that you can keep yourself maximize the experiences, you want to wear loose clothing or none at all.
		Go bare.
		Make your initial attempts in complete darkness or very dim light.
		You don't want to have glaring lights on.
		Make sure there is dead silence and do this alone.
		This is not a party.
		Do this absolutely alone.
		You'll be much better off and maximize your attention here.
		Time your trials late at night, right before going to bed.
		Normally, and in my, by the way, I have an astral travel workbook which gives several, about a dozen techniques I sent you a copy of.
		Most of those, many of those early ones, are for right before going to bed because it's a natural experience and it's a lot easier for people to do that.
		And they can do lucid dreaming techniques and then I advance them on to some other things too so they can go beyond that.
		And basically those are the simple techniques that will help you to do this very nicely and always get yourself into a comfortable position.
		Here's another cute little thing.
		Never lie on your left side ever.
		Always lie on your right side if you don't want to lie on your back or your stomach.
		Now the reason for that is nobody knows.
		It goes back to the ancient Egyptians.
		It goes back to the shamans.
		For some reason the left side is a no-no for metaphysical experiences.
		Really?
		Yeah, really?
		Absolutely.
		There's actual, you know, there's interesting.
		There's a in a book, a new book I'm doing.
		It's about, it deals with Egypt.
		It actually deals with time travels too.
		It'll be out in next July called Time Travels More Future.
		And in this book, I show a picture that was in the Egyptian Book of the Dead of Osiris, and you can't see his left hand.
		He's doing an out-of-body experience.
		It's called a 37-degree technique.
		And you can't see his left hand because the Egyptians, their mystery school mentality of never give people the real truth, you know, always hide it because we want to keep our secrets.
		That's why they call it the mystery school.
		And you can't see his left hand.
		The left side, for some reason, was just a metaphysical no-no.
		It was like using thunder.
		It was like trying to do an out-of-body experience in a thunderstorm.
		The thunder will keep you down because it symbolizes the earth plane.
		So you just don't do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, Doctor, they never found bodies in the pyramids.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		I know, because they were not tombs.
unidentified		They were actually What do you think the pyramids?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		And I'm not trying to be arrogant about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely answer.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely answer.
		they were were actual ascension vehicles for shooting the soul of the Pharaoh to join Osiris and the Syrian system up there and Isis in the equivalent in the Orion Belt.
		It was simply a way of, literally like a cannon, to shoot their soul directly at, You bet I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, Doctor, I got to lie in the sarcophagus in the Great Pyramid just a couple of months ago.
		It was the most incredible experience of my whole life.
		And I have yet to find all the words to be able to even just kind of describe to my audience what I felt.
		There are not yet words for it.
		I'm going to keep trying to come up with them.
		But that's an amazing, amazing place.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, not only that, but you notice there are no hieroglyphics in the Great Pyramid either.
		And all the burial tombs, if you look at the Sakairas and all the others, that all the other Egyptian pharaohs prior to Shefron, by the way, didn't build the pyramids, at least not those, anyway.
		They all have hieroglyphics.
		By the way, do you know when the three pyramids were built?
		At least they were initially started?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Great argument about that.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		10,000, 450 B.C. Well, okay.
		were completed in 2500 BC under Chef, and I'll grant you that, but they were started actually, and that I would deal with in a...
		The aerials really had nothing to do with the building of the terrorists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		There's a lot of people on the line.
		Let's see if we can field a question too before the bottom of the hour.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
		Hello?
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Winnipeg right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I beg your pardon?
unidentified		Calling from Winnipeg, Manitoba?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Manitoba.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		I'd just like to ask him a few questions about astro traveling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Far away.
unidentified		Like, from an early age of two years old, my first conscious memories were actually being out of the body.
unidentified		Like, I'd actually see myself from where I've been positioned.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		But, like, throughout my life, I've been experiencing a lot of spiritual things, too.
unidentified		Like, I've had spirits visit me and take me to places and show me things and help me with the solutions for these things.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm assuming these were not near-death experiences.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		You were just leaving your body just actually projecting, so to speak.
unidentified		Yes.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Now, between the ages of two and five, are you familiar with the work of Professor Ian Stevenson from the University of Virginia?
unidentified		No, but I could be.
unidentified		All right.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, he wrote a book called 20 Cases Suggestive Reincarnation back in the early 60s.
		He reports how he would have spontaneous recall of children.
		He would not use hypnosis about their past lives between the ages of about two and a half and five.
		When you were two years old, and up until about the age of five, sometimes six, you are at your most psychic level.
		That's before the society tends to get to you with guilt and all the usual things that people do when they enter first grade.
		So that time, you were just simply, the soul leaves the body a lot as a child.
		You can be out of the body 14, 15, 16 hours a day.
		Not uncommon.
		So you were doing your own natural out-of-body experiences.
		And it sounds like you have a lot of natural abilities because you're talking about these spiritual experiences.
		It sounds like you are a natural for this.
		So I would recommend, in fact, this is for your listeners too, If they write to my office, I will send all of your listeners who write a sample of one of my out-of-body experience simple self-hypnosis exercises, and I'd love to send you one.
		It's a very simple exercise, and it will allow you not only to leave the body, but to do it with control so you can have a reasonable control over where you go, eliminate the paralysis and the memory, the amnesia problems that normally people experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're talking about free of charge?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Free of charge.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		If they just call my 1-800-CARMAR4U number or 1-800-527-6248, I'll send them a packet with the materials that will detail this, and I'll send them a free exercise, a very simple self-hypnotic exercise that will guide them out of the body safely with white light protection, allow them to do a little dimensional travel, a little astral voyaging, and allow them to come back nice and safe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, that's an irresistible offer, actually.
		All right, Doctor, hold on.
		That's 1-800-KARMA for you.
		1-800-KARMA-4 you.
unidentified		It's free.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can't go wrong.
		I'm Art Bell.
		My guest is Dr. Bruce Goldberg from an area near Dreamland.
		This is Dreamland.
		This is Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Now, here again is Art Bell.
		Once again, here I am, top of the morning, there I go again.
		Evening, and in some cases, I suppose, morning.
		At any rate, top of the day to you, whatever time it happens to be when you're hearing this.
		Dr. Roswell Berg will be right back.
		Again, his number is 1-800, for you.
		The offer is free.
unidentified		He'll tell you about it again in a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, the offer you're making, Doctor, is so incredible that I want to have you repeat it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're willing to send out for free to people what now?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		What I'm going to send them is a self-hypnotic exercise.
		This is an exercise where they will take them out of the body, preceded by a white light protection, and it will give them instructions so they can enter into hyperspace and go to the astral plane, upper astral plane, or causal, mental, etheric, or even soul plane.
		And of course, with that, I'll send them a complete package which will give them details about some of the materials of other tapes or books that they want to read about.
		And it's written material to show them how to use it.
		Very simple, very explanatory.
		And for your listeners, it is the least I can do.
		They can call that number.
		They can also, by the way, if they're interested, they can email me at mycarmer4u at webtv.net.
		And my website is also linked up to yours.
		They can just click on my name on the homepage, or they can go to the previous page and look under G, and they can click on to be there.
		And just for a couple of things, too, your Art Bell Chat Club in Los Angeles.
		I'm going to be giving a talk on December 7th on Pearl Harbor Day to the Art Bell Chat Club in Woodland Hills, which is where the location will be, at the Mandarin Walk in Woodland Hills, a Chinese restaurant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do they find out about that?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, they can call Roger Lockwood, who is your representative in Los Angeles, at area code 213-965-5537, and he'll handle all the reservations for December 7th.
		I will be demonstrating at that talk, by the way, all three kinds of out-of-body experiences.
		You'll actually see people going through, including a woman who consciously died.
		She actually did die, but you'll see how she describes her last moments.
		Very interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's all good information.
		East of the Rock, call us toll-free at 1-800-618-8255.
		Okay, John, we're going to have to eliminate that.
		I'm sorry, my friend.
		You're not allowed to use your last name.
unidentified		No, I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's just say you are John from Utica, New York.
unidentified		Okay, I'm John from Utica.
		I enjoyed the show, Ward.
		I'm a first-time caller, and it's kind of new to this, new to the show.
		But I wanted to ask the doctor a question and make a request for you, and I'll get off the air.
		Sure, John.
		Doc, can you elaborate more on how fasting may initiate an altered state?
		Because I believe I may have had one when I went on a five-day fast.
		Okay.
		Very good.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		I want you to comment on your subjective experiences, but when you fast, what you're doing is you're eliminating all the usual problems.
		The reason why meat is a no-no is because meat takes like three weeks to digest.
		It causes too many problems with all the juices, the enzymes slowing around.
		When you fast, what you're doing is you're using up now all the free sugar in the body goes fast.
		Then you start to metabolize the fat, and what you're doing now is cleansing the system.
		It's detoxifying the system.
unidentified		Absolutely.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		And what happens, because people aren't used to that because they're used to eating every five minutes, what happens is that it becomes an unusual experience, and it puts them into an altered state, chemically, biochemically, if you will.
unidentified		Right.
		I believe I had kind of a oneness of spirit after five days.
		I almost felt very euphoric, not out of body, but a very peaceful and happy state of mind.
		Right.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Now, that's an altered state.
		You don't have to physically see yourself floating around with a silver cord attached, if you will.
		We didn't discuss the silver cord, but it's relevant, too.
		But you have to turn around to see it because it's attached to the back of the astral head.
		But what you're doing is the idea of this peace.
		This is the whole point of out-of-body experiences, to be one with the universe, at onement, atonement, if you will.
		So when you merge with that higher self, because the higher self is really overviewing that out-of-body experience or all to state, you're in that level where you now are, as Art might describe, as cheating death, but in reality, what you're doing is spiritually cleansing your awareness and actually growing spiritually and eliminating the little lessons that keep us reincarnating.
unidentified		Right.
		I just had one request for Art.
		I really love your show.
		And like I said, I'm new to it.
		I just discovered the AM dial.
		But I'm a big fan of Betty Eady.
		I was wondering if you did interview her, and if you did, is there a way I can obtain an audio tape?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I never have interviewed Betty Eady, but that is probably an interview we're going to do, so hang tough.
unidentified		Okay, because I met her three times, and I just like to, I've talked to her spiritually about things of this matter and cellular memory and mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, then hang tough because I guarantee it is an interview coming up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, this is Nancy from Salt Lake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Nancy.
unidentified		I would like to ask Dr. Goldberg, for years I have heard that Charles Darwin, in addition to writing one volume called Evolution of the Species, also wrote other volumes.
		Some people say a 13 book set, some people say 16, on evolution of the light body, evolution of the ethereal body, evolution of the astral body.
		He was apparently one of the early theosophists in this country, or England.
		I've forgotten which.
		But those books have apparently been out of print for 100 years, and I'm sure they'd be tedious to read.
		But was it possible that he was seeing the bodies in these various states, but not seeing the planes or levels of the universe?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a good question.
		I'm really not familiar with the books that he wrote.
		I know it took Darwin a long time to publish his origin of species because of all the political pressure and scientific pressure.
		So I think publishing a book about light bodies, which is what the Easterners refer to as the astral body, would have probably scientifically got him into more hot water than the origin of species did in the 1850s.
		Basically, what he was doing was what T.W. Ledbetter and all the other theosophists did.
		He was doing a psychic reading, if you will, of the astral body and looking upon the chakras and doing that if he's coming up with that.
		Like I say, I'm not familiar with the fact that he wrote that, but if he did that, that's how the theosophists did that.
		They were using out-of-body experience, astral projection, if you will, and going beyond that to perceive these.
		That's why they call them the light bodies, because when you leave the physical body and you're traveling on the astral plane, a lot of souls don't look like human beings.
		They look like blue lights.
		That's why they call them light bodies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, here's somebody who comes after you in email.
		I'm sick and tired of hearing so-called experts say there is no danger in out-of-body travel.
		I can tell you from personal experience and that of others that the dangers are out there and they're real.
		For example, one time an entity tricked me into thinking that I was dead.
		So I left my body and cut the umbilical cord.
		It is only through divine intervention that I am here in my body and not possessed by an evil beast.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, let me answer that question in two ways.
		Number one is that if you really cut the umbilical cord he's referring to is the silver cord, which is pulsating.
		It's our consciousness.
		If you really cut it, he wouldn't be emailing you from the earth plane.
		He'd be somewhere in the astral.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, he said that only through divine intervention.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, that's a, okay, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
		But here's the real bottom line.
		If you use a white light protection, which I guarantee you he did not use, and if you leave the physical body through the fourth to the seventh chakra, you'll never run into a demonic entity because you'll be in the upper astral plane.
		What he did was either a spontaneous out-of-body experience or playing with a technique in the old days where they did not do white light protection and they did not leave through the upper chakras.
		They left through the lower ones, one, two, or three.
		And if you do that, you're going to run to the lower astral plane.
		The fact that he's emailing us, he can say divine intervention all he wants, and I respect his right to say that.
		I just don't agree with him.
		And obviously, if you use the white light protection and these techniques, you'll never have a problem.
		I have thousands of people doing this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good enough.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Goldberg.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		Oh, I'm from Alberta, Canada.
		Okay.
		I have a very, I've been very disturbed by this.
		When I was a teenager, I was at boarding school, and this lady was hypnotizing.
		And the person that had been hypnotized had been made laughed at.
		And ever since after that, nobody could ever hypnotize me because I was so afraid of being hypnotized.
		And I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean because somebody was laughed at?
unidentified		Yeah.
		It's kind of marked some, I don't know, I got afraid after that.
		I thought that maybe this lady didn't know what she was doing.
		Probably, obviously, she didn't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, that is a pretty good question in a lot of ways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are a lot of stage hypnotists who do all kinds of tricks, Doctor.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		It's a very good question.
		In fact, it's one of the reasons why I absolutely despise stage hypnotism because it gives people the impression that, number one, the hypnotist controls the subject, which they don't.
		And number two, is it does make people do things really stupid and people laugh at them.
		In reality, you have the fear that we were discussing earlier that prevents spiritual growth.
		What I would suggest you do, instead of going to a hypnotist that you right now you would probably have a problem with, simply use a very, you know, you can use a tape, mine, other than, there's millions of them around there.
		Use a self-hypnotic experience.
		Get yourself used to the technique.
		And then if you have an issue or a therapy issue, you want to work with a qualified professional, you're welcome to do that.
		But I would get yourself used to self-hypnosis first.
		You can try the exercise.
		I wouldn't try out-of-body experience first.
		Since you've already been scarred by just watching somebody make a fool of themselves, whatever they did, I would suggest you use a very simple relaxation tape.
		I have a self-hypnosis basic exercise, which is a very simple technique, and it will get you to show you how natural and safe and comfortable it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's nobody to laugh at you.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wild Guardline, you're on the air with Dr. Goldberg.
unidentified		Hello.
		Great.
		Nice to have the opportunity, Art.
		I love your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I am in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		This is Tony.
		Yeah, Doc Goldberg, I got a kind of worded question for you.
		It's somewhat long.
		It's the only one I got.
		How do we know that you're not working for the military screening people that experience blue strobing light and paralysis by claiming you are an out-of-body experiencer when really what's happening is people that are experiencing the blue light and paralysis are experiencing maybe possibly the beginnings of an interdimensional abduction by interdimensional beings and subject to any number of unvoluntary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Without winding this too far, you're simply asking him if he's a disinformation agent, right?
unidentified		Well, I guess in short order, yes.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		But basically, you'd have to wait a little while, but next July of 98, Llewellyn's going to release my book called Time Travelers from the Future.
		And it's going to discuss how a lot of these time travelers do the actual abductions.
		I talk about men in black from the future as well as the present, as well as back to antiquity.
		If I'm a government agent, that's the last thing in the world I'd get a promotion for by publishing.
unidentified		Believe me.
unidentified		Whoops.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's make it West of the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Dr. Goldberg.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Good evening, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Al from Joshua Tree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Al.
unidentified		And I have a small request for Dr. Goldberg.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which is what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, may the blessings be, Dr. Goldberg.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes, same to you, Al.
unidentified		Would you talk about the farm?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		It depends on who's promoting it.
		Basically, the fourth plane.
		And on the fourth plane, the gods of Orthodox religion, if you tomatoes issue, basically the gods that people associate, if you will, are really on the mental plane, as well as all the masters, the Jesuses, the Buddhas, the various, the Moses, etc.
		So basically, it's really not on the 13th plane, which is the true God, if you will, and that God there is not going to have anything to do with the lower five planes.
		But see, if you were involved with the early scriptures and whatever religion you believe in, and you visited the mental plane, you would assume that was heaven, and you would assume that was the true God.
		So you see, it's just a matter of no one's going to believe that until it's a little bit too late.
		They're going to be married into their paradigms or their philosophies or their theology.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Goldberg.
		Good evening.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air.
unidentified		I was trying to get the numerical equivalent of that phone number that you've been giving.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
		The doctors, you mean?
		Yeah, the 1-800 karma for you.
		No problem, Doctor?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		It's 1-800-527-6248.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		That spells out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Give it again.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		1-800-527-6248.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that is good, what, 24 hours?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		24 hours a day, every dimension, including the full time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Good evening.
		You're on the air with Dr. Goldberg.
		Where are you, please?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		This is Bangor, Maine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bangor, Maine, all right.
		Go ahead.
		Oh, I'm on.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Hi, Dr. Goldberg.
		Hi, there.
unidentified		I believe you're the one who wrote the book, Past Lives, Future Lives?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Past Lives, Future Lives, The Valentine book was my first book, which actually was re-released into a trade paper back last month.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, that's good.
		Look, I have a question.
		You say that astral fabric was perfectly safe.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		But what about the phenomenon called Walkins?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had a question about that.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Walking is something that I really don't have documentation to.
		Ruth Montgomery, all we do respect to her, even if there were Walk-ins, Walk-ins would never violate the code of no one's going to take over your body.
		If you believe in demonics and knowing how superior they are to us because they've been around for 15 billion years, why isn't everybody walking on the earth today a demonic?
		I mean, you know, it would be like a professional football team playing a high school team and seeing who's winning the scrimmage here.
		The reason we don't allow walk-ins is because we have free will.
		We have our higher self, which is the white light that you hear about in your death experiences and other out-of-body experiences.
		The white light of the higher self is perfect.
		Nobody can miss.
		Nobody can knock the chip off the shoulder, so to speak.
		So you're always protected.
		If you allow a walk-in, if that paradigm exists and I don't agree with it, then it would be something that you gave up the body and said, okay, I've had it.
		There's nothing I can do.
		According to Montgomery, Abraham Lincoln was a walk-in, and so is Teddy Roosevelt.
		And if you read their histories, all the masters have histories of very dysfunctional backgrounds, and all of a sudden they became masters.
		So maybe there is something to it.
		But either way, the previous soul occupying that body would have to sign on the dotted line with a three-day right of recision.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I have one more question.
unidentified		Is there such a thing as an old soul or are we all created?
unidentified		Yeah, there are all old souls.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		We've all been around.
		You want to click to summarize about your past lives that can say, I'm not a psychic here.
		Everybody's lived in Lemoria, Atlantis, and Egypt.
		That's a given.
		The rest of them are just a question of get your regressions done step by step.
		We've all been around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no wait a minute.
unidentified		You said they're all old souls.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are no new souls?
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		No, there are no virgin souls.
		I haven't worked with a virgin soul ever in my life.
		Everybody's been around for probably several thousand past lives.
		And you can explain the Earth's population, if that's your next question, by simply a matter of every soul being energy, electromagnetic radiation specifically, if it occupied just three different physical bodies at one time to learn lessons, which it does, and you extrapolate that out to 13 generations, which is only 390 years, one over soul, which is the term that we use, would occupy over 1.5 million bodies.
		And there was about 20 million people on the Earth about 2,000 years ago, and now there's about 5 billion give or take.
		So it isn't really complicated to do that.
unidentified		All right.
		Okay.
		Thank you very much.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		All right.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was a good question.
		All right.
		Well, we are just about out of time, Doctor.
		So I suppose very quickly, if you would, phone number and address one more time.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		Okay, they can call me at 1-800-527-6248.
		They can write to my office at 4300 Natoma, N as a Nancy, A-T-O-M-A Avenue.
		And that's Woodland, one word, Hills, California, 91364.
		They can email me at karma4u at webtv.net.
		And they can click onto my website from yours or under the previous guest on the G or under your homepage currently.
		And I'll be happy to send them a free packet with the out-of-body experience exercise and a listing of other materials.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're going to be at the Art Vault Chat Club, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If they want to know about that, give that number one more time.
bruce goldberg ▲ ● ▼		You call Roger Lockwood at Area Code 213-965-5537.
		And if they click onto my website, there'll be a posting of all the books and tapes and the speaking engagements in the future.
		I'll be doing all the way to 98 tomorrow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, my friend, we're out of time.
unidentified		Thank you, Doctor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Till next time, take care.
unidentified		That is indeed my man, Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it for tonight.
		From the high desert, we are flat out of time.
		I'm Mark Bell.

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