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Nov. 4, 1997 - Art Bell

01:59:52

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Edgar Mitchell - Apollo 14 Astronaut

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	Call Art Bell.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	It is indeed.
	Good morning everybody.
	1-800-618-8255. 1-800-618-8255. East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	It is indeed. Good morning everybody. Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut with us
	in a moment. All right, now we go to Florida, and that's where Dr. Edgar Mitchell is.
	Edgar Mitchell is.
	Dr. Mitchell, welcome to the program.
	Well, good morning, Art.
	Thank you.
	It is really an honor to have you on the show.
	Well, thank you.
	Pleased to be here.
	Good.
	I've got a million questions, which probably are dumb.
	Everybody asks astronauts these questions, but I've got to do it because I've never heard the answers.
	We'll give you the first 100,000 or so.
	Yeah, all right.
	How did you get picked to be in the Apollo program?
	I guess that's a good place to begin.
	Well, I kind of made it my business from 1957 on, after Sputnik went up.
	I recognized that humans were probably right behind robot spacecraft, and I wanted to go along, so I started working on my credentials in 1957, even before there were men in flight, much more than a dream.
	It took me nine years adding to my test pilot credentials, getting a PhD from MIT, and being involved in space development with the military.
	So it's sort of like you had a list where you knew what the right stuff was going to be or was going to require, and you began fulfilling it.
	That's kind of right.
	I didn't quite exactly know about it.
	I just kept adding credentials and qualifications and hoping that sooner or later they couldn't ignore me any longer, which turned out to be true.
	By 1966.
	Alright, well most people today, because all of this occurred so long ago, have forgotten a lot about it.
	What reminded them about it all was Apollo 13.
	That's true.
	Of course.
	And would you say, to the best of your knowledge, that Apollo 13, minus a little bit of dramatic license, was fairly correct?
	Oh yes, there was very little dramatic license in the movie Apollo 13.
	It really did a marvelous job of keeping it right on track, and very kudos, actually, to what happened.
	All right.
	Bearing that in mind, and with a lot of people who've seen 13, the movie, going on 14 must have been a bit of a, even though I'm sure by then you were all locked into it and ready, still, in the back of your mind, with Apollo 13 just having occurred, You must have worried that a similar thing could have occurred?
	On the contrary.
	I took the position, hey, we've really gone over the spacecraft with a fine-toothed comb.
	The likelihood of something, of lightning striking twice in the same place is pretty small.
	At least it's nice consolation, whether it's true or not.
	Mathematically true is another matter, but it's nice consolation.
	The main problem was don't screw up.
	We really We were under the gun to fly a good mission, and so to ourselves, don't mess up, do it right.
	I guess my simple little question was, and it is a simple question, when you got to the moon, when you got on the moon, was it fun?
	Fun?
	Oh, sure.
	Was there time in between everything you had to do to just, you know, sort of No, there wasn't time.
	Any moment that you took to do that was very brief, stolen.
	The clock did not permit that time.
	But, of course, Alan Shepard took the time to hit a golf ball.
	I took the time to throw a javelin further than his golf ball.
	How far did your javelin go?
	Well, both of them went out there a few yards.
	If we hadn't been such cumbersome, tight pressure suits, we could have done a pretty respectable job of throwing things halfway around the moon.
	But those pressure suits were tight and stiff and difficult to work with.
	But they went out there a lot.
	Was there any chance that, should you fall in one of those, you would catch it on a rock or a jagged and tear it?
	There's a possibility.
	We were careful with regard to that, watched each other pretty Cautiously, kept an eye on each other, worked the buddy system, and tried to make sure we didn't fall on anything really sharp.
	But it was a remote probability, but it was still there.
	If something like that had occurred, would it be automatically fatal, or would there have been time to do a
	quick patch job, assuming it wasn't a giant tear, and you'd live through?
	We had ways to overcome small fissures or small holes in the suit, leaks in the suit, for short periods of time.
	We had a buddy system.
	We had an emergency oxygen supply that could hold up for very small leaks.
	And that's about all that we really expected to encounter.
	Were it a massive tear, it would be too difficult to manage.
	Did you ever have any concern or did you give any thought to what would have occurred if the LM had not been able to lift off from the moon?
	And I wonder how they could have handled that from a PR point of view at Houston.
	We had about five ways to back up the engine ignition and the start sequence.
	Fortunately, we didn't have to use any of them, but we had several different backups.
	The last of which was to run a jumper cable from the descent stage through the hatch into the ascent stage circuit breaker panel.
	I wonder what would happen when that cable went snaking out through the front door as we lifted off, but we never had to use that one.
	So there wasn't much thought to anything tragic?
	Well, there was a lot of prior thought.
	Backup, creating backups for things that could go wrong.
	But once you've done that, you've done all you can do.
	We went to the moon, and went to the moon, and went to the moon, and now we haven't gone to the moon.
	And it's been 30 years, and a lot of people, and I'm one of them, wonder about that.
	Why haven't we been back?
	Why haven't men been back?
	The public hasn't supported it financially.
	That's the reason we cut off the last three flights.
	The public started saying, ho-hum.
	So what have you done for us today?
	I'll go back to the moon.
	Scientifically, there's plenty of reason to go back, and eventually we will, but we have to garner the public will, public and political will, and finances to do it.
	It will happen sooner or later.
	The Saturn V, that's what you wrote on top of, isn't it?
	That was quite an incredible booster.
	How much thrust did that develop?
	A little over 7 million pounds, about 7.3 million pounds.
	7.3 million pounds.
	It's hard to imagine what it's like sitting on top of a giant firecracker, isn't it?
	Yeah, I compare it to a vertical subway ride.
	Kind of shaking, rattling, and rolling as the gimbals move the vector around.
	With acceleration, you're getting pushed back in the seat ever more firmly until you reach first stage cutoff a minute or so.
	How many G's at that point?
	How many G's at that point?
	Not too many, a little over four.
	The lift-off is relatively light.
	It's the emergency re-entry that pushes you up to high G loads,
	potentially up to 16, 16 and a half G.
	We practice that, and it's not a comfortable feeling to practice emergency aborts.
	What is human endurance for G's, roughly?
	Depends on how you're taking it.
	Transversity is through the body like we were taking it.
	You're going to start to black out above 16 if you sustain it too long.
	But you can take a jerk or short impulses higher than that.
	You may tear a few blood vessels, but you'll survive it.
	I don't really know what the absolute limit is.
	What would you, was there any surprise for you on the moon?
	Was there anything you found on the moon that you didn't expect to find?
	with rocket sleds brought to a screeching halt up to 20 or 30 G's as I recall.
	And yeah, they sustained a bit of damage sometimes doing that.
	Was there any surprise for you on the moon?
	Was there anything you found on the moon that you didn't expect to find?
	Well, not along the lines you're talking about.
	The only big surprise was it was much more difficult to navigate than we thought
	because it looked like a fairly smooth surface where we landed, relatively smooth.
	But it turns out the undulations of the crater impacts are like sand dunes, and they're much higher than you think they are.
	So, whereas we thought we could navigate across the surface very, very precisely within inches if we wanted to
	It turns out you couldn't do that because you lose sight of your landmarks just like walking through the desert
	With sand dunes you come over one sand dune and sure well behold there's another one
	You can't quite see which over the next one would that have a
	Block to your another words with that kind of geography Which is hillier than you thought would that have blocked
	your view?
	Or did you have a great view to the moon moon's horizon? We had great views what I'm talking about is
	Micronavigation oh I see down to within feet or so we knew where we were within 10-15 yards
	But not within 10 or 15 feet sometimes like the geologist wanted us to a lot of people
	thought the early Apollo missions might You know, when the limb came down, Michael, sinking into the moondust, and there was going to be a great deal of moondust there.
	A lot of people thought that.
	Well, there was a great deal of moondust.
	It just turned out it compacted very nicely, and the big pads we had on the bottom of the struts cushioned it very nicely, and we didn't sink in.
	All right, let me try this one on you.
	It's a fact, so I have several.
	Regarding your appearance on Dateline, NBC's Dateline, A few minutes into the interview, if you had missed it, you would have missed the commentator's remark that Dr. Mitchell returned from the moon with a couple of secrets.
	So, if he's unable or unwilling to corroborate Richard Hoagland's work, and we'll get to that later, I'd like to know if it's true that there are some secrets.
	Is there anything, any secret that you learned that you still are unable to discuss?
	Absolutely not.
	No, the secret she was referring to was a little teaser for the fact that I did that ESP experiment, telepathy experiment.
	But I have no classified information or information I can't talk about.
	I've talked about everything I know to talk about regard to flight.
	Of course, if you had classified information that you couldn't talk about, then You obviously couldn't talk about it, right?
	No, but yes, that is true, except for the fact that I deny that that's the case.
	We were totally over-programmed.
	We had nothing to hide.
	We were to tell the world what we found, and as far as whatever we saw, we can talk about it.
	Alright, I don't shy away from things.
	Here's another fact.
	It says, don't ask this directly.
	You may not be able to broach the subject without causing some tension between you and your guest.
	Edgar Mitchell's company, this fact says, has been and is still funded by the CIA.
	Absolutely untrue.
	Absolutely untrue.
	If you recall, back in the early 70s, I did work at Stanford Research Institute with Harold Puthoff and Russell Targ and Uri Geller and all that, and I was invited to brief the CIA on our results, which I did.
	George Bush was head of the CIA at that time and subsequently a great deal of work was done by CIA on psychic work and very successfully because the Soviets were doing it at that time as well in the Brezhnev area very successfully and as a matter of fact much of that work has just been declassified and released to the public Within the last few months, Harold Puthoff and Russell Tard
	both have written several papers just this year, after 20-some years of secrecy,
	about all of that work.
	And it was very successful work and very exciting.
	But as far as funding my company and any of my efforts, no, I've never had one penny of
	CIA funding.
	You did conduct an ESP experiment.
	is now known. What were the results of that experiment?
	What did you do?
	Well, the standards were a test that had been done in the laboratory by J.B.
	Ryan and other people for 30 years or more.
	I just simply conducted it in that environment.
	And I can only quote the results statistically because of the way it was set up.
	The probability that chance could have produced our results was 1 in 3,000.
	1 in 3,000.
	So it was statistically a significant No, I did it four different times.
	Planned to do it more than that, but I had time to do it four different times during my rest period.
	It took about seven minutes each time to organize the standard dinner symbols in accordance with random numbers selected from a random number table.
	And the result was that it would have been 1 in 3,000.
	That chance could have produced that result.
	That's incredible.
	according to random orientation of the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and then simply thought about
	each symbol in turn for 15 seconds.
	And the result was that it would have been 1 in 3,000, it could have been...
	That chance could have produced that result.
	That's incredible.
	It was very significant. It was quite in keeping with what scientists had found in the laboratory
	for 30 years or more.
	Did NASA know you were going to do that?
	No, they did not.
	Had they known, would they have been happy?
	Not particularly.
	How did you decide to concoct that experiment?
	Well, as I tell in my book that's coming out, I had been in discussion with some medical people, as a matter of fact, who were very good scientists.
	And who were frustrated with the establishment's lack of interest in these human capabilities.
	And it seemed like too good an opportunity to pass up, because no one had ever been able to conduct an experiment over those distances.
	Now, it was a simple experiment.
	It didn't show a lot, because one set of experiments is never enough.
	But it was indicative, and the only problem with it Only problem was that it got broken to the press before we were ready to and before we had a chance to analyze the results and do it in a thoroughly scientific, proper way.
	Care to say how it got out?
	One of our persons involved in it, who happened to have been a professional psychic, couldn't contain himself, got too excited and leaked it to the press.
	I see.
	All right, let me jump to something else here.
	You on Dateline virtually suggested that you think, your opinion, it's always safe to say that, is that there was really perhaps a crash in 1947 in Roswell, and that it has been covered up.
	Is that roughly accurate?
	Yeah, that's pretty accurate.
	Let me give a little background.
	I lived in Roswell at the time, but I was too young, of course, to know much about that incident, although it was not too far from my parents' ranch.
	Yeah, interestingly enough, and also as I point out in my book, Robert Goddard lived right down the road from where I grew up in Roswell.
	Walked past his house on the way to school every day.
	So the Roswell area is of interest to me.
	I remember that incident vaguely, remember the headlines, and didn't think much about it at the time when it was said, well, it's just a weather balloon.
	But the subsequent events and the people who have come forth in later years saying that they were told to keep quiet, but they don't want to keep quiet anymore, and the many, many investigations of it, suggest that there's really more to it than has been told.
	I think there's in the order of about 130 witnesses.
	Yeah, there's a lot of people.
	There's a lot of people, yes.
	And many of them now in the later stage of their life saying, we really don't want to There are a lot of people who would say the same thing about you.
	In other words, that you wouldn't want to go to your grave with secrets about the moon.
	Now, I'm not going to beat this to death, but I'm going to ask you, Richard Hoagland claims that there are great glass structures on the moon, and he presents Photographs, including one, I might add, of you on the moon, in which he claims reflections in your visor are showing things that were in front of you that you have not admitted were there.
	Well, I won't refer... The kindest thing that can be said is what the Washington Post said.
	Green cheese and bologna.
	It simply is not true.
	Simply not true?
	It's pseudoscience.
	It's just nonsense.
	Alan Bean, I think, gave a quick comment, a proper comment.
	I happen to be out of pocket at the time this press conference took place a month ago.
	But Alan Bean's comment is absolutely correct.
	Had we discovered such a thing, we would have been totally delighted to reveal it to the public.
	And he was also, in tongue-in-cheek, said, I would have loved to have gone to collect the Nobel Prize for having such a discovery.
	Uh, no.
	There's nothing like that.
	All right.
	Doctors, stay right there.
	Take a break.
	It'll be about four or five minutes.
	We'll be back with more.
	Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell is our guest.
	And he's written a book.
	Get a pencil.
	Get a paper.
	Because he's going to offer you an opportunity to get an autographed copy of his book.
	Dedicated autographed copy.
	You'll never get that chance again.
	yet the
	the the
	the the
	That's 702-727-1295.
	702-727-1295. That's 702-727-1295. First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Back to Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell in a moment.
	All right, back now to Florida, and my guest, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut.
	Doctor, this question does not relate to you because of the nature of your crew on Apollo 14, so don't take it that way.
	One day, if America is to ever, or any nation on this globe, I guess, is ever to launch a spacecraft to elsewhere, truly to elsewhere, beyond our system, in what will be a very long spaceflight, there may have to be generations, literally, of people to accomplish that fact, unless we can start moving a lot faster than light.
	Toward that end, I would think that NASA would have, but wouldn't talk about, a great interest in whether it would be possible to procreate in space, or the nature of procreation, and that leads to whether there's ever been sex in space, and we talked about that one night, and you seem like the person to ask.
	Do you think there has been?
	I can't answer that from definitive knowledge, but sooner or later there's going to be.
	May very well have been, but I don't know of any efficient experiment for that.
	There may be just an extension of what aviators always talked about, the mile-high cloud.
	You're just getting up there a hundred miles high.
	I think it would be irresistible, wouldn't it?
	Yeah.
	And there must be a file in the back of somebody's file drawer about that.
	I mean, it is, at the same time, an interesting question, a fun question, and a question that is very serious, or could potentially be very serious.
	Well, we certainly need to consider it because, as you point out, long-distance space flight can take years and years even though by the way it's a
	matter of interest there's a lot of work going on at the moment
	to modify, learn to modify the basic characteristics of local space
	in order to change the speed of light so locally one could exceed the speed of light
	uh...
	way to not really exceed the speed of light
	but it would appear that one is exceeding the speed of light. Is this a theory that
	embraces uh...
	virtually folding sort of folding uh...
	space so that you in effect jump from point to point No, that is the wormholes or tunneling approach.
	No, this goes right to the very definition of what is the speed of light, and it's the electrical and magnetic permeability, it's associated with the electric and magnetic permeability of the medium.
	And if you could modify that, then you could modify the apparent speed of light, but it's very far out.
	There's just a few papers been written on it, and it's being looked at at this point, but it holds some promise from a scientific point of view.
	Very, very hard-nosed approach to it.
	All right.
	One of the things that Richard Hoagland may not be so far out on, and that you may wish to comment on, He talks about a new type of physics that seems to sound a lot like what Tesla worked on, that seems to relate to something you've talked about, this zero-point energy.
	Yeah.
	Well, I must not give open credit for that.
	Sure, it's much closer to Tesla's work, but a number of physicists, including Helmut Puthoff, whom I'm very close to, Tom Bearden, others have been working with zero-point field concepts And I was just discussing, what I was just discussing comes out of zero-point field work.
	That the zero-point field is the underlying field of quantum fluctuations that supports all matter.
	And in space, you'd call it the... Why am I blocking?
	It's space energy.
	It's energy that's all around us.
	All around us, everywhere.
	And it is the fundamental fluctuation that's left over.
	If you were to reduce space to, well, the space is zero degrees Celsius, it's the quantum fluctuations that remain at zero degrees Celsius.
	Or you could also say it's a source of the Big Bang.
	It was there and the Big Bang arose out of a zero point field.
	Does it seem likely to you, Doctor, that A, that the Big Bang is the correct theory.
	Well, the evidence gets stronger and stronger and stronger the more you look at it, that there's something like the Big Bang.
	The problem is not with the Big Bang itself, it's with what happens in the first few nanoseconds of the event, and defining precisely what happens at each instance.
	And they're narrowing in on that, but something close to the way that the current standard description of the big bang did take place
	if uh... if it's the big bang or some modification of the big bang
	then doesn't follow that uh... if uh... roswell really occurred if there really
	was a crash at roswell or there have been others or there are others to visit
	that any materials gathered would likely
	frankly be very much like the materials we have here on earth in
	other words all material material source uh... from a common the
	and my own book i discussed this at considerable length What really comes out of it is that the Big Bang tells us that all matter is interconnected in some way.
	And this comes out of an experiment only 12 years ago called the Aspect Experiment, or more formally Bell's Theorem, which has been tested and proven to be correct, that matter, once in connection or correlated with each other, remains correlated in some sense.
	I trace this up to being responsible for what we experience as our inner experience.
	Non-locality is the correct term.
	We experience our ESP, our intuition, our creativity as a result of that very fundamental physical relationship that exists in nature.
	It always existed in nature and it's responsible for us having our inner experience the way we have it.
	Going to space, going to the moon, was it at some level a very spiritual experience?
	And this was what got all of this going, as far as I'm concerned.
	It was the perception.
	And looking at the cosmos, seeing the stars, seeing the galaxies, seeing the galactic clusters, the profusion of billions and billions and billions of stellar objects, Uh, with this tiny little Earth in the midst of it, and perceiving that the molecules of my body, of that spacecraft we were in, of each other, of everything around us, were all manufactured in those ancient stars, and that our story about ourselves from science was incomplete, and our cosmology about how we came to be from our cultural traditions and our religions was archaic.
	That we needed a new story.
	And that new story was, what is it that makes us conscious?
	Why is it that we're aware beings like we are?
	And the answer to that question is centered around what I have been doing for the last 25 years, trying to find what's going on here.
	Our answers are not complete, but I think after 25 years of working at it, we're getting pretty close to a good answer.
	And it does involve a zero-point field.
	It does involve quantum physics.
	It does involve spiritual experience, mystical experience, parapsychological functioning.
	All those things have to be satisfactorily answered if we're to know what it is we are.
	Do you think it would be more devastating to learn there are others of greater technical capability, or more devastating to learn there are not?
	Oh, more devastating to know there are not.
	I think it's absolutely wonderful to know, when you first start with the idea, this universe is full of life.
	It's full of intelligent life.
	The fact that some of it might be a little bit more advanced or happened a little earlier than our civilization seems natural.
	If life is throughout the universe, which is quite a different concept than we held 25 or 30 years ago, but now I think that is the case.
	And if the universe is approximately 15 billion years old or so, give or take a few, it would not be strange that maybe a civilization could be a few million or even a billion or so years older than we are.
	Do you think we're ready to know that now?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	Well, surely many are, and I would be certain you would be, and I would be, but there was the Brookings Report That suggested a great many people in our society would not be ready.
	I think that's probably true, but not nearly like it was 25 years ago.
	A recent study done by my own institute demonstrates that, has broken the demographics down into three different groups called the traditionalist, the moderns, and the postmoderns.
	And the postmoderns, another name for them is called cultural creatives, which is a group like You and I are that are looking for new answers, looking for where the future is, not afraid of these ideas.
	That group has changed from 2% to 24% in the last 20 years, and is equal in size.
	In the United States, we're talking about U.S.
	demographics.
	Equal in size to the traditionalists and the moderns, or the modern could be your corporate people, your materialist scientists, All right, look, you've got a book, and I want to plug it for you.
	It's called The Way of the Explorer.
	uh... environmentally sensitive people uh... looking to the future all those
	groups are now roughly the same size with the cultural creative increasing in the others
	decrease all right look you've got a book and i i want to i want to
	plug it for you it's called
	the way of the explorer can you give us uh... i'll tell everybody how to get book
	and stuff in a moment but can you give us an idea of what
	the way of the explorer tells us
	I talk a bit about the space experience, of course, how I got into all of that, but most of the book and this story of looking at the universe and being awestruck by what I was experiencing, but most of it is the research of the last 25 years going into these various topics, mystical experience, psychological experience, Studying consciousness, how does it relate to our psychology, to our religion, to our mystical experience, to our science, and giving my thoughts on it in my work over the last twenty-some years, and coming to a new model called the dyadic model of how it relates.
	What does all this mean to us, and where does it seem to be taking us in the future?
	And I touch upon the UFO experience a bit.
	the the notion that intelligent by this probably throughout the universe
	and the real question is that we found each other yet all of these items are
	touched upon some of them in significant detail and it's kind of a result of my last twenty seven years of
	research it's it's hung upon a autobiographical story and the people
	who have read it say hey that's a pretty interesting tale
	if another a group of people from elsewhere had uh... been watching us
	or if we have been observed then surely
	those moments when we left our planet in a significant way beyond low earth orbit or even uh...
	geosynchronous orbiting satellites
	those moments would have been i would think of intense interest
	to somebody else and And so obviously the question, did you, en route to the Moon or back, see anything at all that was anomalous?
	I wish we had.
	I mean, these stories and rumors have been around for years, but I have had no experience, none on our flight, and to my knowledge, no unexplained experience on any of the flights in this regard.
	And yes, in an evolutionary sense, an extraterrestrial intelligence would be very curious about the evolutionary progress that a civilization they discovered had made.
	If we were watching somebody's first steps into space, we'd be intensely curious about it.
	All right.
	This is something that had to have been covered by NASA, though you say it didn't happen.
	Had there been contact?
	Had you seen another craft?
	Met something on the moon?
	Seen something on the moon?
	What was the protocol?
	Was there a protocol?
	There was none.
	In other words, you guys would just get on the mic and say, Hey, Houston, guess what?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Because the official Really?
	I would have thought there would have been at least some private, secret code word or contact or something before you just blurted out the whole thing out publicly.
	been exactly that eight uses
	look what the corporate really yes
	uh... i would have thought uh... there would have been at least some private secret
	code word or contact or something before you just blurted out that you know
	holding out publicly no huh it was
	collector as far as i was very concerned such a remote event that was
	an even discussed Now, did any of us individually think about it?
	Sure.
	And say, well, that would have been curious.
	That would have been nice.
	All right.
	You've got a very, very unusual offer for everybody, and you're going to be inundated.
	Your book, The Way of the Explorer, you're willing to actually autograph versions for people And even dedicate them, is that correct?
	Sure, sure.
	Really?
	Give me their name.
	I'll dedicate it to the person that sends the money in.
	All right, it's $35, right?
	Right.
	A special, dedicated autograph version.
	And they would send out $35, I suppose, check money order, that sort of thing?
	Yeah, check money order, cash, whatever.
	Uh-huh.
	2PO Box 6728, Lake Worth.
	to P.O. Box 67286728 Lake Worth, two words, Lake Worth, Florida, zip code 334-334-334.
	Lake Worth, Florida, zip code 334-933-8333.
	And I'll do that again.
	The title of the book, The Way of the Explorer, Post Office Box 6728, Lake Worth, Florida, 33461.
	And you know not what you do.
	Oh, you know not what you do.
	I'm telling you, I wrote a book.
	I signed autographed versions.
	You're going to be at this for a long, long time.
	Thank you for the warning, Eric.
	You remember 2001, the obelisk, all the rest of it?
	As you reflect, Doctor, on what it all means, or how we came to be, and that's what we're all asking, do you consider that a possibility that life here on Earth was, in effect, jump-started one way or the other, obelisk or otherwise, by folks from elsewhere?
	I doubt if it really started that way, but there's some interesting speculation by... I'll think of the block of his name.
	It just blocked his name.
	He wrote The Twelfth Planet.
	Zachariah Sitchin, I believe.
	Zach Sitchin.
	Thank you.
	That says, well, maybe they intervened along the way, and that the historical, biblical story out of Samaria.
	Could very well have been that sort of influence.
	I would love to have Sitchin's work either confirmed or denied by additional scholarship because it's intriguing and he makes a very strong case and it's interesting stuff and it's quite possible.
	But I think we probably originated much like life originated elsewhere and the model for that is what I give in my new book as to how that could possibly happen.
	Interesting.
	By the way, you know, we're also considering doing quite a bit of film work with this.
	I'm associated with North Tower Films out in California.
	Really?
	Trying to get some of these ideas down on film because it's a modern way to do it and into computers, into multimedia approaches.
	If any of our listeners are interested in that and in helping getting involved, we could get them involved with that one too.
	And they would contact you at the same address?
	Well, no, I've got a number for that.
	You contact me, but the best thing is to go directly to, if you're interested in getting involved, to North Tower Film, which is 415-868-1452.
	1-4-5-2.
	Looking for funding.
	We have a very fine producer.
	Did you see the movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
	Oh, yes.
	Robert Watts is the producer.
	Oh, yeah.
	He's one of the producers.
	He does a marvelous job.
	Also did the Indiana Jones series and Star Wars trilogy.
	He was involved with all of that.
	So he's a marvelous producer that helps do some of our work and we're trying to do some of this work around what's coming out of this new approach to science and to mystical Well, there is certainly a lot suddenly happening.
	Your statements, those that are going to be interestingly made May 7th, which is the date your book is coming out, I know, by Gordon Cooper on Paranormal Borderline, apparently some incredible statements coming.
	I don't have a full text, but the people that do have told me they're amazing statements.
	And a lot of people would say the things you've said that Gordon Cooper will say and others uh... are all leading up to something that it's a slow preparation that's the way people feel and that motion pictures are adding to that you know uh... independence day coming up the big movie the whole thing that all of this is leading uh... to a sort of uh... crescendo of information when they'll be some big revelation do you think that maybe well we're in an evolutionary universe this is a major point
	We're evolving.
	We're continuously changing.
	We're continuously innovating.
	And what I believe is happening is that on our Earth, evolution is coming under our conscious control.
	And as a result, it's a new order of things.
	It's a new paradigm for the way we operate.
	In other words, the future of Earth is in our hands.
	All right, Doctor.
	Hold it right there.
	That's a good place to hold it.
	We'll be back following the news at the top of the hour.
	My guest, Is Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell?
	Yes, we will get phone lines open.
	stay right there.
	Dr. Edgar Mitchell in Florida.
	Back once again, Doctor.
	Gee, it's great having you here.
	It's nice to talk with you.
	I've always wanted to talk to somebody who went to the moon and walked on the moon.
	Uh, it's exciting to me.
	I wish, I guess I will never, that's one thing I will never get to do.
	Well, not necessarily.
	Well, that goes to the nature of my question, and that is, now we're talking about a space station with the Russians, and I guess the space program has not gone as aggressively as people like yourself, myself, might have wished it to.
	Where should the space program be going?
	If you had your druthers and money wasn't a problem, what would we be doing?
	Well, I think we're probably doing a lot of the right things right now.
	But in due course, we will do all of these things.
	We will go back to the Moon.
	We will go to Mars.
	We will go out to the solar system.
	We will even go beyond the solar system, in due course.
	Sometime in the next century or so, or beyond.
	But right now, I think we need to get our act together here on Earth.
	And the space technology is absolutely marvelous for surveying the Earth, seeing our How to get ourselves better organized here, get things pulled together.
	It's quite apparent when you look at Earth from space that this thin, thin, thin little biosphere that we have is rather in jeopardy.
	You know, we spotted the burning forest, the pollution from space.
	It's very easy to see.
	And it's causing people to be very concerned.
	So getting ourselves organized, recognizing who and what we are, what is our place in
	the cosmos, laying our plans for the future, is an appropriate thing to do now.
	We've only been in space about 30-some years, and that's just nothing.
	And we're just really starting to understand what this environment is all about.
	Does that overview, seeing the Earth that way, cause you to become an environmentalist?
	It certainly causes you to become more, to ask questions in a different way.
	And most of the people who have been in space, I would say, are now, if not ardent environmentalists,
	certainly very sensitive to environmental issues.
	It's very obvious from the space overview.
	A lot of people have asked this, and I've always wanted to.
	A lot of people, Doctor, who went to space, went to the moon, or even in the early Mercury program, have had terribly troubling lives.
	Broken marriages, drug or alcohol problems, just generally have had trouble.
	But I would guess, and this is just my guess, that that's true of a lot of test pilots, too.
	People who live on the edge one way or the other.
	Is that the answer to your question?
	That's largely true.
	I think the NASA program itself in the early days, we had very high family problems just because of the intensity, the dedication.
	This idea of going to the moon back in the 60s was so exciting, and people were so dedicated That the men and women, mostly men in those days, focused on their jobs and families came second.
	And that's just not the way you keep a family together.
	And as a result, we had our casualties.
	And I think the timbre of the times, as we see in American society in general these times, that we're undergoing a transition and it has been very difficult on the families themselves.
	But it's just a part of the times, I believe, and the intensity of this very marvelous program we're a part of.
	I want to dispel another rumor, or it's actually more than that.
	Flying around on the internet, this great new information resource we have, there are all these texts, there are a lot of texts of supposed astronaut communications intercepted by amateur radio operators during blackout times about things they saw, most amazing things, all baloney.
	Well, without analyzing them individually, I can't say they're all baloney, but by and large I would say, in a general statement, yeah, they're all baloney.
	You and Gordon Cooper and others are probably considered, within the astronaut corps, to be kind of out on the edge yourself, are you not?
	In some ways, yeah.
	Do you expect others to come forward and say the kind of things that you've been saying?
	Well, they have been.
	Some of them have.
	Perhaps a little more guardedly.
	I've kind of made it my business for the last quite a few years to look very carefully, very critically at many of these frontier concepts to see what validity they had.
	And we're finding many of them have a certain amount of validity.
	as they have validity, you start to find ways to bring them into the body of our knowledge.
	And when you're a pioneer in that way, as I try to be, yes, you invite criticism, you
	invite the wise nods and the shaking of heads and so forth.
	But that just goes with the territory of being an explorer.
	Neil Armstrong is a good example.
	I can't give you the exact quote, but he went to the White House, I'm sure you've heard it, and said that there are places to go and things to see that will boggle your mind, or something very close to that.
	Yep, and that's quite true.
	Well, that implies a knowledge, though, that he has that he can't quite fully Or is not willing to quite fully articulate, sort of a tease?
	It's probably more not quite able to articulate.
	I have had exactly that same problem of trying to explain what is the inevitable.
	And that has always been the problem between science and our mystical experience.
	Science wants things precise, well-defined, and with Exquisite precision, but most of our human experience doesn't have that precision.
	It has, it's what we feel, it is our reaction to an environment, and there aren't words to properly describe it.
	If it were, then it wouldn't be such a mystical experience.
	Alright, well you have had the ultimate physical experience, the science experience of going to the moon.
	Do you think the ultimate answers that man seeks Are going to be found in the hard sciences or do you think that we will have to turn inward to find those answers?
	Science has to modify itself.
	And it's all centered around one concept.
	It's the first person experience.
	Each one of us lives in our skin.
	Each one of us has an inner experience.
	That's the only experience we have.
	Science is concerned with describing that from the third person or objective point of view.
	And unfortunately, you cannot describe a whole first-person point of view from a third-person point of view.
	That is where science breaks down.
	And the religious or cultural or subjective experience is all that each of us really has.
	That is the basis of our existence.
	And bringing science into understanding how to better deal with the personal subjective inner experience That is what my studies have all been about, and that is really where the dividing line is here.
	All right.
	Here's something that I would like to ask you about, and maybe you can answer it in a way I haven't been able to, but those of religious faith, deep religious faith, many of them view discussion of UFOs, discussion of people, or others that may be out there as of the devil.
	How do you react to that?
	This was, I grew up in a fundamentalist tradition.
	I tell the story in my book about my mother who was healed amazingly in one of these powerful things, healing moments very much the way Jesus is supposed to have healed people.
	Only the interesting part was this fellow was a Buddhist shaman and he did a pretty marvelous job of healing my mother.
	And she subsequently started thinking about it.
	And I describe this in the book, by the way.
	What did she suffer?
	She had glaucoma and was very surely going blind.
	She wore thick, by the time this happened, she wore very thick Coke bottle glasses and was legally blind without them.
	And she was healed and conceived, broke, interesting story, dropped her glasses on the floor, ground them under her shoe and said, son, praise the Lord, I can see.
	Go home without her glasses 300 miles.
	And if I were to say, the devil did that?
	Well, just let me finish the story.
	She called me a week later and said, son, was this man a Christian?
	And I said, oh Jesus, no mother.
	I'm sorry, he wasn't.
	The next day she had to put her glasses back on.
	I had to go get new glasses.
	Her belief system was so strong that since she couldn't accept a Buddhist shaman healing her, she rejected the healing.
	Interestingly enough, ten years later when she passed away, she still hadn't had an operation because it was pretty risky back in those days, but she never went blind.
	Her eyesight improved over the years, the ten years remaining to her, so that by the time she passed away, her glasses were a far weaker prescription than when this incident occurred.
	Very amazing story.
	That's amazing.
	Got me started on all of it.
	Oh, it did?
	Well, that was in part one of my earliest experiences with consciousness and paranormal work, even before I ran into Uri Geller.
	Uri Geller came after that, and I had been studying with this shaman to see how in the world can this possibly happen.
	As a scientist, I wanted to understand it.
	Do some of your old colleagues come to you and say, Edgar, what are you doing?
	Yep.
	They do?
	In fact, they did right after the experiment in space.
	Many of them came in, closed the door, looked around nervously, and said, tell me about it.
	It's been happening for 27 years.
	And so you just told them about it?
	Right.
	I'll tell anybody if they ask.
	Wow, forward.
	Obviously.
	There was a report Last night, Doctor, last night, scientists, it says, are now calculating that asteroid 433, known as Eros, will wander into Earth's orbit.
	Now, it's not a minor little asteroid.
	It is the size of Manhattan.
	Scientists are saying, eventually, a collision with Earth is likely, maybe not for a million years, and that's a long time, but they calculate it will probably occur.
	Now, of course, That's far larger than the one that supposedly took out the dinosaurs.
	50% probability.
	50%?
	Half and a half?
	Well, alright, that's a big probability.
	And it's also not the only asteroid out there now.
	Potentially, one day, something's going to come along that will do to us what was done to the dinosaurs.
	Quite possibly.
	That's been a recent concern of scientists, so it's a good reason to have a space program in it.
	Yep.
	And you see, this illustrates what I'm talking about in our evolutionary path.
	We are indeed, these events can come under our conscious control by the time that might happen.
	They say the probability is very, very low in the next 10,000 years, virtually zero.
	And within 10,000 years, we certainly would have the technology to divert an object like that with perhaps nuclear power or some such technology that we could invent by the time that happens.
	So that illustrates the fact we could bring this sort of natural disaster within our ability to pervert it or change it.
	We may not be able to get to earthquakes by that time, but again, we might.
	But certainly, it's feasible that we could divert an asteroid that was going to collide with it.
	All right.
	There are many who have profits, people who claim to see.
	You mentioned earthquakes.
	uh... gordon michael scallion he's a fellow i work with brilliant guy uh... others who see greater changes coming uh... great great earthquakes coming indeed i look at our society right now we've been dealing with the story this morning of a six-year-old who may have or is alleged to have planned the murder of a thirty day old child the sort of thing events Socially, economically, politically, seem to be in rapid deterioration, and events appear to be quickening.
	Geologic events as well.
	Have you looked at that?
	Well, yes, I have, and I describe part of this in the book.
	I don't know that geologic events are accelerating, but certainly, well, in the sense that weather events, if they're influenced by the ozone layer, if they're influenced by the global warming, the greenhouse effect, Those can be traced to human activity.
	And if we can trace it to human activity, then yes, it's accelerating because every measure of human activity has a period of doubling now that is less than a human lifetime.
	It's the first time that's happened in all human history.
	Exactly.
	So it's bringing, it's what I'm saying, it's bringing all of these events are coming under human control.
	And it's because we're so numerous, our technology is so powerful.
	And it requires us now to rethink this whole issue of who are we, how did we get here, what's our future, where are we going, why and how?
	Well, whether you believe in a creator or you believe that our Earth is reacting to what is being done to it, there are a lot of people who believe, and I may be one of them, that the Earth is in fact in some way, maybe perhaps just some natural way, Reacting to our presence, or the changes we're bringing to Earth.
	Well, I happen to be one of them, too.
	You do?
	And that's exactly the sort of model I describe in my book, that this is an interactive, self-organizing system that we're talking about.
	And you push on it here, and the effect comes out over there, in ways we don't really quite understand yet.
	And that's precisely what we must do is to take responsibility for and understand the consequences of our behaviors because we're doing some things that are quite reminiscent of the lemmings rushing toward the sea.
	Exactly.
	I'm politically, in a lot of ways, conservative.
	Me too.
	But NASA has measured, in recent years, The ozone depletion.
	And I find it very difficult to be in denial regarding an 8 to 10 percent drop over North America, for example, in the size of the hole.
	Do you generally believe these measurements are accurate?
	Absolutely.
	The question here is not, are the measurements accurate?
	The question is the meaning and the interpretation.
	And the evidence continues to mount that these are indeed man-made events, and that they're having a deleterious effect upon our whole ecological system.
	It's affecting the food chain.
	The measurements are showing that it's affecting the food chain, clearing down the level of the newts, the frogs, the life cycle of fishes, and so forth, which eventually works its way up to affect us.
	So we should be watching these indicator species very, very carefully, and recognizing that very likely we're causing the problem.
	As we take down the forest, the rainforest, And as we venture into places we've never been before, we seem to be getting more Ebola's, more mad cow diseases, more viruses that we can't explain and can't deal with.
	More of the same thing, Doctor?
	More of the same thing.
	Nature has a way, and I think my model that I present in this book, it goes a long way toward helping us understand how this takes place.
	Nature is an evolving, intelligent organism.
	We don't think of it as an organism due to our scientific history.
	We think of it as inanimate particles.
	That's right.
	But the Lovelock-Gaia hypothesis that everything is interconnected and interrelated, more like an organism, is probably a more productive way of thinking about nature.
	Closer to the Native American model.
	It's very close to the Native American model.
	And virtually all of the early models.
	And I think we will find it very productive if we continue to develop that model of the interconnectedness of things and how everything relates to each other.
	And the fact that these effects take place is hardly disputable.
	It is the meaning or the interpretation that is in question here.
	Alright, that's fascinating.
	Do you think, given the direction that you see and I see, we're headed toward a good outcome or, without change, a catastrophic outcome?
	Well, without change, it can be very catastrophic, but that is precisely the point.
	With change, with human awareness, with human willingness to take responsibility for some of these actions, then the outcome can be very Very beneficial.
	What the futurist is looking for is sustainable processes, and right now we're creating processes that are not sustainable.
	A lot of my writing right now is on sustainability.
	Good.
	Doctor, hold on.
	His writing is entitled The Way of the Explorer, and he's making you an offer this morning that I'm sure you can't refuse.
	I'm going to send off my 35.
	That's the name of Dr. Mitchell's book, The Way of the Explorer, and he's willing to send you an autographed, dedicated copy.
	An autographed copy.
	I would grab this up.
	And the way you get it is send $35 check, money, order, cash, whatever.
	Really, you shouldn't send cash.
	To P.O.
	Box 6728.
	That's Post Office Box 6728.
	Lake Worth.
	That's two words.
	Lake Worth, Florida.
	3-3-4-6-1.
	And I'll do that one more time.
	The Way of the Explorer, $35.
	To Post Office Box 6728, Lake Worth, Florida.
	3-3-4-6-1.
	When we come back, we'll begin to take a few calls.
	And by the way, to my very, very good friend at Gateway, the answer is absolutely yes.
	Private message.
	We'll be right back.
	Neil Armstrong at the White House, July 20, 1994.
	There are great ideas undiscovered, breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers.
	There are places to go beyond belief.
	That, doctor, was what Neil Armstrong said, and that part of the line, to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers, seems awfully suggestive.
	Yeah, we do have a way, the way we organize information in our mind-brain.
	We have a way of protecting ourselves from shocking ideas.
	And if we want to be ultra, ultra cautious, we just let shocking new ideas kind of float over our head and we don't buy into them.
	and that's what a major point all right this is something people have always asked a lot
	of the film and video that was taken on the moon
	a lot of film and video that's been taken in space for that matter
	never seems according to my a faxer from memphis to show stars
	And...
	And people have always wondered why.
	It shows the blackness of space, but you never see the stars.
	Any thoughts?
	Sure.
	That's because if you squeeze the shutter down in order so that you get some definition of the thing you're looking at, you have excluded the starlight, which is much fainter.
	but if you were to focus away from the sun and away from reflective light to
	open the shutter up you won't see the stars
	same thing is true on the lunar surface if you look through our lunar surface telescope
	from the lunar module you saw stars very very nicely but on the lunar surface
	if you look out you should see stars but it's reflective light is bright enough that your eye shutter
	squeezes down, your eyeball squeezes down, you don't see them
	unless you're very well shielded and certainly on your camera
	if you're going to catch the definition on the surface you've got to
	close the shutter and you exclude the stars Well, I can tell you that's true, because not long ago, the shuttle came back, returning to Earth.
	And here in the desert, we got a beautiful look at it very early in the morning, about 4 o'clock in the morning.
	I went out with my camcorder, which is, you know, maybe one or two locks of good camcorder.
	And it began as a great orange glow in the west.
	And grew and then suddenly shot across the horizon with a big kaboom.
	And I thought I got it, and I didn't get a doggone thing on my camcorder.
	Not enough light there.
	Not enough light there, exactly.
	Well, it's amazing how sensitive the eye is.
	You know, we did a wonderful experiment coming back from the moon, in which we put eye shades on, darkened the cabin, and then looked.
	And sure enough, we got meteor trails flashing across the eyeball.
	Which were gamma rays, tiny little energetic solar particles, flashing across the tissue of the eye, just like a meteor flashes across the sky, and the optic nerve is sensitive enough to pick up that single photon.
	Were there many worries, Doctor, that something the size of, you know, a pebble or even a grain of sand would impact a spacecraft at high velocity?
	That was all part of the computation of how thick the spacecraft was and so forth.
	And sure, during periods of high solar, sunspot activity, we shouldn't be in space, not because
	of meteor particles, but because of the high energy that could penetrate and damage our
	bodies.
	And there is always a possibility that a high velocity particle could fracture a spacecraft
	cabinet, sure.
	There's very little probability, but it's there.
	All right.
	Let's take a few phone calls, if you wouldn't mind.
	Sure.
	Go ahead.
	All right.
	Here we go.
	On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Mitchell.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	This is Mary from Teotihuacan, Nevada.
	Yes.
	Dr. Mitchell, someone was listening to you when you came on the air this morning, and he worked with you on the ESP experiment.
	Can you use your ESP now and tell me who it was?
	I have no idea who it was.
	I can tell you if it's true if you tell me who it is, however.
	Olaf Johnson.
	Yes, well, Olaf is indeed the one that knew about it.
	He was involved, that's quite true.
	And he also let the press know and that got it all out in the public, that's right.
	There you are, ma'am.
	He was listening to you this morning when you came on, and he was hoping that he could talk to you.
	Well, if he can get through, he can talk to Dr. Mitchell.
	Would you have words for him?
	Have you had words for him regarding his letting the press know about it?
	Well, we'd hoped that that wouldn't happen.
	It did cause a few difficulties in keeping this within the scientific genre instead of a sensational You're not unhappy you did it?
	Oh good heavens no!
	As you know, Dr. Ryan published the results and everything works out the way it's supposed
	to, so I can't be too frustrated with the follow-up on that regard, but it would have
	been helpful if we'd announced it a little more measurably.
	You're not unhappy you did it?
	Oh, good heavens, no, because it did indeed show us that what we were experiencing works
	exactly the same way in space as it does here.
	And subsequent experiments in the laboratory have shown us that we don't have an inverse
	squared effect like we do with other electromagnetic effects.
	That it is truly a non-local effect we're dealing with.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Where are you, please?
	Kansas City.
	Kansas City.
	All right.
	Dr. Mitchell, honored to speak with you.
	The question I have for you is, You speak a lot about spirituality, and you speak about that people will not be so paranoid in the future with what they find out, from what you believe we will find out.
	Do you have a religious feeling?
	Do you believe that there is a higher being controlling us?
	I don't use the word being.
	I interpret it quite differently than that.
	Work with the idea of the God within, rather than the God without.
	In other words, I consider the whole universe as divine intelligence.
	That we must, as I write in my book, that we scientists must rethink the problem that the gods do exist, they're throughout the universe.
	And I say to the theologian, your gods are too small.
	The whole universe is in the divine experience, and we just merely need to change the subtle way we think about it a little bit, and it all fits, as far as I'm concerned.
	So how would you explain life after death, or is there?
	Well, that's a lengthy one.
	Read the book, and I do touch on that.
	I approach this from the point of view of energy and information, that it's a very natural thing that's taking place.
	That the information representing human life, or the experiences of human life, are indeed recorded, are indeed preserved, is a better word.
	I call it the giant hard disk in the sky, facetiously.
	And we now have a quantum mechanical mechanism, which we're writing about and studying right now, as to how that takes place.
	We have a pretty good handle, a pretty good theory on what's happening here.
	Doctor, I've always personally explained it by just believing that creation, however it occurred, and a creator not necessarily at all mutually exclusive.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	There's no reason the hand of the creator could not have molded and started all this on its way.
	Yeah, exactly.
	It's like the details of the Big Bang.
	The details that we're talking about here are so fine that they become a little bit moot.
	But the fact is, This is a creative, organizing, intelligent universe, and the details of its beginning we still don't quite grasp, but perhaps we will in the future.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Good evening.
	Oh, cool.
	Hi, this is Matt from Idaho.
	Hello, Matt.
	Hey, I could make a hobby of this.
	This is the second mood walker I've talked to.
	Who else did you talk to?
	Buzz Aldrin on Larry King's show.
	Very good.
	Anyway, I don't really have a question, per se, other than just a little personal experience that I had as far as, Dr. Mitchell, when you talk about the experience of the oneness and whatnot.
	Back in 1988, I was standing on the shore of Jackson Lake, Grand Teton Lodge, Grand Teton Park, and it was a perfectly smooth lake on a cloudless, beautiful night.
	That's exactly the point.
	The whole lake was like a mirror.
	And all of a sudden I get it.
	It's really hard to explain.
	It's like you said.
	But if you do experience it, you'll never forget it.
	That's exactly the point.
	The experience is sometimes ineffable, but once you have experienced it, you never forget
	it and it's very hard sometimes to explain to someone else unless they've had the same
	Then you don't need to explain it.
	Yeah, about the only thing I can say is that the closest I could come to it is that it was almost like every single cell in my brain just all of a sudden at once understood the whole thing for a second.
	In my book I describe this.
	The classical mystical experience is described in the literature as Samadhi.
	This comes out of the Sanskrit, the ancient language of mysticism.
	And I describe this in the book as when the entire brain body is in resonance with the zero-point field, and it provides a sense of ecstasy, a sense of connectedness, a sense of this ineffable experience that you're trying to describe, and which I try to describe equally and effectively.
	But, there is, apparently now, a physical explanation for this.
	And we must ask ourselves, why did nature provide these feelings at all?
	And of course, I'll go into that one, too.
	All right.
	Thank you, Matt.
	Let's go into this one.
	Let's see if you can handle this one.
	Have you done any thinking about the nature of the soul?
	Somebody asked you about life after death.
	In other words, are we more than the sum total of our biological parts?
	That's where this information comes from.
	A way of looking at it, this is a metaphor, this is a way to look at it, is that the sum total of our experiences can be called information.
	Everything before now is just the information about what we've experienced.
	In other words, your life is information.
	That you remember.
	In other words, everything in your mind right now is just a memory from the past.
	Sure.
	So, if we say that that memory, that information is coherent, that there is a way that it is preserved, that is about as good a scientific description of the soul as one can come up with, and we now have a mechanism for how that is preserved and carried forward.
	That's what I'm working on at the moment.
	And it's a testable hypothesis.
	Science is going to be able to deal with this very, very shortly.
	You believe that we will begin to get a grasp on it, actually?
	I think we're doing so right now.
	I'm working with a number of scientists in Europe and here in the United States, including my good friend Al Putoff, that I worked with for years.
	And we're all batting these ideas back and forth.
	And it goes to the nature of holography.
	In other words, one of the things in physics that we're all familiar with now is a holograph.
	Sure.
	It's two-dimensional and three-dimensional.
	And it turns out that the brain constructs its images much in the same way holograms are constructed.
	And it also turns out this may be nature's way of creating its coherence, its resonance, this interconnectedness we're talking about.
	We're getting a little heavy for an early morning show, but that's probably going to be my next book as we try to explain this in late terms.
	Fascinating.
	Okay, we are the sum total of our experiences, and maybe more.
	We're now entering an age where all kinds of memory and computer tricks are possible, and storage and speed are increasing of CPUs.
	Will the day not come when Information may be exchanged between biological entities and machines, or at least, I guess what we call machines now, may become part biological themselves.
	Well, I kind of question that, and this is a central point, so you can't be too adamant about it, but it's the fact that the inner experience of a silicon chip is probably quite different Then the inner experience of a carbon-based brain.
	So it's not likely that we will have androids that are very good humans.
	It's because of this subtle difference in non-locality or inner experience, which goes to our intuition, our ESP, etc.
	All of which we humans experience because of the particular nature of our carbon-based mind-brain.
	spirit if you will which is somewhat different than a silicon
	silicon it is but there are people who talk
	biologically based or hybrid uh...
	uh... computers of the future and quite it is possible that we can do that
	to certainly sophisticated uh... computer technology
	but there will be certain differences and i think it's obviously much too
	early to tell how far we can go with it it a lot of it i guess depends on the nature of
	awareness uh...
	What awareness?
	Key word!
	You just hit the key word, Art.
	Awareness, and this is what I describe in my book, that awareness is a fundamental attribute of nature, of the matter in nature.
	That if you start to examine awareness closely, as we in science used to think, That it is a product of our evolved energetic molecules.
	It turns out you just can't get there from here.
	That awareness has to be indigenous to nature itself.
	Now, our mentality, our ability to think, to reason, to reflect, to be self-aware, yeah, that's probably due to our evolutionary path, but awareness itself probably is not.
	At least that's the thesis I put forth.
	Fascinating.
	So you think we, in all probability, will not actually get to awareness, and if we do, then we're getting toward the core of it all, and I have to wonder if we should even be there.
	Well, I don't know whether we should be there.
	I think we have to understand it.
	But I believe that understanding awareness and volition, awareness and volition go together in my model.
	They are right at the core of the question.
	When we understand awareness and volition, Probably right at the central, crucial issue.
	Fascinating.
	Doctor, I have held you now for two hours.
	I have one hour of the program left, and if you are up to it, I would hold you, or if you wish to rush off to breakfast, I know it's about six o'clock in the morning there.
	Well, let me get a refinished my teacup, and I'll stay with you a little bit if you like, because I'm enjoying talking with our folks.
	Absolutely excellent.
	All right.
	Please go right ahead and do that.
	I'll begin to tell everybody how to get your book once again, all right?
	Very good.
	So go get some tea, and we'll hold you another hour.
	My guest is Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	This is a priceless opportunity, and we will weigh more heavily on the phones in this final hour.
	He has written a book.
	It's called The Way of the Explorer.
	That's a good title, isn't it?
	The Way of the Explorer.
	Or otherwise to go where no man has gone before.
	Anyway, if you would like an autographed copy of his book, it really is a rare opportunity, an autographed copy of his book, dedicated to, I guess, supply the verbiage you would like, he's willing to do that.
	He's going to be signing a lot of books.
	to get it you uh... send thirty five dollars post office box
	6728.
	6728.
	Lake Worth.
	That's two words.
	Lake as in that which holds all that water.
	And Worth as in Fort Worth, Texas, but not Texas.
	So Lake Worth, Florida.
	Zip code 33461.
	Let me get that to you again.
	I know a lot of you are rushing for pens.
	This will be a priceless opportunity and probably one One-time chance to get an autographed copy like this, The Way of the Explorer.
	It is $35.
	It will be less in the stores, but of course you will not have a personally autographed version, and that's something to have as a keepsake.
	post office box 6728 Lake Worth Florida 33461 and I would like to thank you all
	for participating If you would like to
	Either speak with Dr. Mitchell, or you're welcome to send a fax with a question.
	Let me give you my fax number.
	Here in Nevada, it is area code 702-727-8499.
	Now I ask that you hold it to three pages, please.
	No more than that.
	I prefer one page, if you can do that.
	A faxed question at area code 702-727-8499.
	8-4-9-9.
	And so, there you have it.
	An evening with somebody who's been to the moon.
	It's always been a dream of mine to be able to ask these kinds of questions to somebody who's done something that I... Dr. Mitchell said I may, but I suspect I may not ever get to the moon.
	In fact, that is a good question, I suppose, when we come back here in a moment.
	To ask whether any of us may have an opportunity to go.
	You never know.
	I never thought that I would get to fly at Mach 2+, but I did.
	I got to go to Paris in the Concorde, so who knows?
	Maybe an opportunity will present itself and I will get to go to the moon, yet.
	Just that I'm not betting on it, so when we've got somebody here who's actually been, it is indeed a priceless opportunity.
	More of it coming up in a moment from the high desert.
	You're listening to the American CBC Radio Network.
	I'm Art Bell.
	don't move right now back
	to dr edgar mitchell And, Doctor, I presume you've got some tea in hand.
	Yes, I have my herbal tea, and I'm ready to go.
	All right.
	We have done a number of programs on something called HAARP.
	I bet you're familiar with HAARP.
	It's up in Alaska, and it is ostensibly a project to heat the ionosphere, in effect, boring a hole through the ionosphere.
	In order to study radio or improve radio propagation ostensibly, or to look for caverns or bunkers beneath the earth, in other words, to geographically map what's below the surface of the earth, there are a lot of people concerned about harp.
	Dr. Nick Begich in Alaska wrote a book called Angels Don't Play This Harp.
	Do you know anything about the angelic nature or lack of it of harp?
	You've sprung a new one on me, that one I'm not familiar with.
	Uh-huh.
	Well, okay, that's worth looking into, believe me.
	They're going to be pouring billions of watts in it with a very directional antenna toward the ionosphere, and it's an interesting project, and you don't know anything about it?
	No, but I can say if it's billions of watts, that's an awful lot of energy, and it should be looked at very carefully.
	Mm-hmm.
	That would be my reaction.
	Energy, energy in those amounts.
	Need to be studied carefully before you do it.
	Very good.
	On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Good evening.
	Morning, actually.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	To both of you.
	It's a great honor to speak to you, Dr. Mitchell, and I had a question.
	What was the most unexpected event that occurred during the Apollo 14 mission?
	Well, two things.
	On the lunar surface, it was the difficulty of our navigation on a presumably relatively
	flat surface.
	Finding out it wasn't so flat after all.
	In general, it was this perception of Earth from space, which was overwhelming to many of us, of seeing this awesome planet we call Earth and getting this new The epiphany, the insight, the wow, the aha, that to me was the unexpected overwhelming.
	Did it seem surrealistic to you, like am I really here?
	Not quite surrealistic so much as isn't it amazing that we react in this way?
	Isn't it amazing that here we knew, we know the earth is this little ball, it looks like It's moving around a rather average sun in a rather average galaxy way out on the spiral arm.
	We knew all of that intellectually.
	But when you experience it viscerally, something different takes place.
	And that is precisely what got me on this whole path that I've been on for the last 25 years.
	What is it that's taking place?
	Why is it that we experience it?
	All right, where are you calling from, sir?
	Alamo, California.
	All right, excellent.
	Thank you very much.
	And Dr. Mitchell, how much can you see?
	Now, with the kind of mission you were on, how much detail, when you're in orbit, can you see on the Earth?
	You said you saw the forest burning.
	Well, no.
	You can see that.
	It depends on how far out you are, of course.
	If you are at the distance of the moon, well, you can see the continents, provided they're not obscured by cloud cover.
	You can see the deserts, the reddish color of the deserts, the green of the great jungles and so forth, the blue of the water.
	Detail is a little more difficult to perceive, but if you get in closer, of course, then you can see magnificent detail from a hundred miles up.
	And with our modern surveillance devices, you can read license plates from space, as you probably know.
	Yes, I do.
	The whole series, the CAGE series of satellites, I do believe they can look down and read licenses.
	It's a little unnerving.
	All right, Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Hello, Dr. Mitchell.
	Good morning.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in Eugene, Oregon.
	Yeah, my name's Andy and I wanted to know how the doctor felt about, or if he was familiar with, Dr. Robert Monroe's work.
	I knew Bob very well when he was alive, yeah.
	Oh, really?
	Really.
	Astounding books, out-of-body experience and far journey, and I just wanted to get your feelings on his discoveries, on his out-of-body, his inter-dimensional travels.
	The way I explain it in my book, and I go into this also, that you tie it together with the remote viewing experiences, and it's merely a matter of detail and specificity.
	And, again, the inner experience from the detail of Bob and Ro's work, the so-called out-of-body or astral projection, gives the experience of being there.
	But we can't find anything that goes anywhere.
	What you're doing is bringing the information here.
	In other words, information is everywhere, and you're simply focusing it from a point of view.
	So nothing has to go anywhere in order to perceive that information.
	Another way of looking at it is that we're here and everywhere simultaneously.
	Now, that's a tough one to get around.
	Yes, it is.
	But that seems to be the best description.
	In that it is simply a transformation of the viewpoint of information that exists, and information apparently exists everywhere simultaneously.
	I had the honor of interviewing Dr. Monroe before he died, and I found his information to be absolutely captivating.
	Do you believe that I or that a human being sufficiently trained and disciplined Could take roughly the same trip you took without all the expense associated?
	You do!
	Part of the work we did in the laboratory was with several psychics.
	Ingo Swann, a very noted one, was able to do this and to bring back information from some of the larger outer planets that was only verified later by NASA Flyby.
	So, some of the work in remote viewing precisely gathers that sort of information.
	Now, it turns out that the detail can be quite good.
	It can also be misleading sometimes because we do filter that through our own brain body, our own information mechanism.
	But with good training and putting aside biases, quite often the information is startlingly accurate.
	Moon rocks.
	Everybody would like to ask about moon rocks, and I've got a bunch of faxes here.
	You brought back, and the Apollo series brought back, many, many, many rocks.
	Did we find anything in those moon rocks that surprised or shocked us in any way, or did we just find rocks?
	Well, we found rocks, and we found that they are, of course, the same minerals that we find on Earth, because the periodic table of elements is the same everywhere in the universe.
	But the combinations and the processes that form the rocks are clearly quite different, which is what we set out to discover.
	What are the processes on the Moon that are different than the processes on Earth?
	And by and large, they're described by the lack of the lighter elements like oxygen, hydrogen, All of which boiled off very early in the lunar process because of the reduced gravity, the smaller size, and they were present here on Earth.
	But what they did was give us clues as to how the Moon was formed, which in turn gives us clues as to how our own Earth came about.
	What is the best theory about how the Moon was formed?
	Was it from Earth?
	There are people who feel it was early on from Earth.
	I will have to beg off a little bit.
	I haven't read the most recent literature, but they were formed at about the same time, early in the process, and apparently from the same giant mix, but were... I may be a little tentative here.
	I believe that they have had a long, long history of separate as being independent entities, but they have been...
	May have been in conjunction at one time.
	There's one theory, and I'm a little confused here because I haven't studied it in quite a number of years.
	There was one theory that the great part of the Pacific Ocean is a place where, like Siamese twins, they were separated at one point.
	I'm not sure whether that theory's held up or not, and I'll have to beg off of it without reading the most recent literature.
	All right.
	Dear Art, please ask Dr. Mitchell about crop circles.
	What's his opinion?
	That's something I know you know, Linda, how.
	As a matter of fact, I think she interviewed you for this coming Dreamland this Sunday.
	What do you think about these crop circles?
	They are odd.
	Any theories?
	Well, they are odd, and I'm not enough of an expert on those, nor have I studied them personally to be able to offer anything that's very valid.
	And certain of them certainly have already been I guess I have to remain open-minded on it and say, I don't know the answer.
	Let's get some more data here.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Where are you, please?
	Yes, hello.
	Northern Florida.
	College student there.
	Late of hour there.
	Late of hours there, indeed.
	Glad the affiliates are hanging on there.
	Bless them.
	Dr. Mitchell, in the course of the interview there, well, the zero point, well, Mr. Hogan
	referred to it as the hyperdimensional physics, etc.
	Is that I have, well, knowing a member of the space program for many years now, not
	going into great detail, is that the spiritual, to be quite honest here, if you gentlemen
	would like to expound, especially yourself, Dr. Mitchell, Mr. Bell, you're quite up
	there as well, is that what I have been somewhat educated to is the spiritual, truly the spiritual
	endeavor is something that we are truly expounding upon here, and the scientific is truly something
	Just a tad of a notch below that, in a way, so to speak.
	I'm not sure that I fully understand the nature of that question, but I think he's saying, do you hold the spiritual above the scientific in terms of eventual answers?
	No.
	As a matter of fact, the thesis here is that we're in a natural universe and that, by and large, it is explainable and knowable.
	And that if it is not, that will show up, too.
	But so far, it seems to be explainable and knowable, and certainly what we call the spiritual is an intimate, personal part of our existence.
	But I don't find it never-neverland, supernatural, anything any more hierarchically above or below.
	I don't use those terms, above, below.
	And in a hierarchical sense, it just is.
	And it's a part of the universe that we experience.
	And our hope is to understand it better.
	You seem to be very much in sympathy with those who suggest that if the space program is moving slower right now, that's no big deal, let's get it together here and then worry about space later.
	Is that about right?
	Yeah.
	We've got lots of time.
	We've got about five billion years as long as the sun is still burning out there, which is about its lifetime.
	And right now, we've got some major problems here on Earth.
	We will eventually go on back to the moon.
	We will go on to Mars.
	We will go on.
	Our destiny, I believe, is to explore this universe.
	And we'll do that in due course.
	Right now, we'd better get our act together.
	How worried was NASA that you might I know there was a period of isolation when you came back.
	Were they concerned that you might bring back a little bug or a virus or something that you would step on and cling to you on the moon?
	How long were you isolated when you came back?
	Well, we had three weeks, and we were the last flight to be post-flight quarantined.
	We were also the first flight to be pre-flight quarantined, so we had a double dose of it both before and after.
	Why the pre-flight?
	Was that to avoid...?
	Well, that was because on Apollo 13, Ken Mattingly was exposed to Charlie Duke's measles, or his son's measles.
	Oh, that's right.
	And it got bumped from the flight because of it, which, as it turned out, can help get them back.
	So, as Jim Lovell says, blessings come in disguises.
	But we were pre-flight quarantined to prevent disease from getting into space, and we were post-flight quarantined to keep space disease from getting here.
	It turns out there wasn't any.
	Obviously, since you were slated for 14, When the problems occurred to 13, I'm sure it had your attention.
	Doctor, how close was it?
	Well, it was darn close.
	See, Apollo 13 was originally my flight.
	When Alan Shepard came on the crew, we were slated to replace Gordon Cooper.
	We were slated to do the Apollo 13 flight.
	NASA Headquarters suggested that since Alvin had not been in training for some time, he ought to take a little more time to train, and negotiated a crew switch with Jim Lovell's crew, which was then Apollo 14.
	So, we switched crews and switched missions.
	They got the bad bird and we got the good one.
	And that was kind of the break of the draw.
	Still, you must have, what were you doing when 13 was on its way back?
	Well, I was doing exactly, if you saw Apollo 13, I was doing exactly in the lunar module what ken mattingly was doing in the command module
	uh... boring out of private beast uh... as a lifeboat low power no power
	manually uh...
	it's kind of like uh...
	learning to take uh...
	your your sailboat on the open seas or let's say you're doing the only open
	season turned into a white boat to bring the major craft home
	was it is frantic as depicted in paula thirteen Well, I'm not sure frantic is the right word.
	It was high pressure, intense, and very, very methodical.
	As we tested everything we knew how to test, we used creativity to the ultimate extent because that particular failure, we practiced that failure, and when they gave it to us, we said, hey guys, you just killed us.
	We don't need to practice getting killed.
	So we never really practiced it, but we knew such a thing could happen.
	But when it really happened, then we had to go to work and figure out what to do about it.
	We were just hours ahead of death all the time.
	These guys could have expired any time in the next two or three hours.
	We were solving problems that were just warding off the ultimate destiny by hours.
	If Apollo 13 had ended in disaster instead of a miracle, virtually, would 14 have flown That's a good question.
	I don't know that it would have totally killed the program at that point, but it would certainly have been a major setback.
	Had we on Apollo 14 also messed up and not had a good mission, I think that would have definitely killed the program.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	This is Colleen from Farmington, New Mexico.
	Hi there.
	And I have two questions for Dr. Mitchell.
	The first one being, whose records would you suggest to look into the Roswell crash?
	The Army, Air Force, or Navy?
	I don't know that those records are in either of those repositories anymore.
	People have been trying to do this for years, and it's in the literature.
	They've tried the Freedom of Information Act to get it.
	Documents that are blacked out, mostly.
	So, I don't know that that is the right approach.
	You use the Freedom of Information Act and go after the information.
	And we're really not going to get any more information until there's a general amnesty or release of classification on these particular documents.
	Well, as you know, Doctor, Ma'am, hold on a sec.
	They really did come out with fairly recent information saying Well, we lied.
	It really wasn't a balloon.
	The true story is it was a different kind of balloon.
	Yeah.
	That's the new story.
	Yeah, the new story.
	All right, ma'am, you have another question?
	Yes, I do.
	Dr. Mitchell, do you have any knowledge of a crash at Aztec?
	A what?
	A crash at Aztec.
	I'm sorry, I do not.
	I think I've heard of that incident, but I have no personal Okay, thank you very much.
	Alright, but again, you, on balance, are of the personal opinion that Roswell... that something did happen.
	Something did crash at Roswell.
	I think there's no doubt that something did crash.
	I have to say, I am not an expert in any of these particular... I have followed other people or professional investigators.
	I have looked at the overall evidence.
	I have listened to testimony.
	From very high-placed people with first-hand experience, who I find quite credible.
	But I do not consider myself an expert in this area at all.
	All right, Doctor.
	Hold on.
	Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut, back in a moment.
	you're listening to the american cbc radio network now back to doctor edgar mitchell
	Doctor?
	Hello there.
	Hi.
	Doctor, a little earlier we talked about whether I would ever have a chance to fly as you flew, or in any other way.
	I had one great experience, Doctor, and that was I flew in the Concorde from this country to Paris at Mach 2+.
	And they let me go up into the cockpit at Mach 2, and it was All very exciting, and I remember putting my hand on the window when we were doing about Mach 2, and this thing was roaring along.
	And the window was so hot, you couldn't hold your hand on it.
	That's the problem.
	Uh-huh.
	And you flew at Mach... Gee, I forgot how to convert it, but it's... Let me just figure for a minute.
	Mach many?
	Mach many.
	36,600 feet per second.
	Oh, brother!
	What kind of temperatures during re-entry are reached?
	Well, it's enough to ablate and melt the heat shield.
	It comes up to several thousand, but I don't remember the exact number.
	Several thousand?
	Several.
	I've got a piece of it right here on my desk.
	It's a very charred core from the heat shield that burns that phenolic block.
	So without that heat shield, it's crispy critters.
	Well, what is designed to melt away and carry the heat away, that's the way it's designed, is to ablate or melt.
	And big globs of it burn off and go streaking by the window on the way back.
	That must be weird.
	Yep.
	To realize that minus that, that would be you burning off and going by the windshield.
	Yeah, fortunately we have a pretty good thermal control system, but it does start to warm up and it has to work.
	Oh, I was going to ask that.
	In other words, it doesn't remain a constant pretty 70 degrees inside?
	No, it starts to warm up a little bit.
	But the thermal controls don't take over and keep you reasonably comfortable.
	All right.
	Back to the phones we go.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Hi.
	Hi, I'm calling from Garden Grove.
	Good morning.
	Garden Grove, California?
	California.
	All right.
	Dr. Mitchell, we're all pretty familiar with Neil Armstrong's first words when he stepped onto the moon.
	What were yours?
	Well, my first thought was, what am I doing here?
	But it's an awesome experience.
	It's absolutely wonderful.
	If you're an explorer, and that's the way I consider myself.
	Do you remember what you said, though?
	No, I don't remember what I said.
	We can go back on the record and check it out.
	I've got the transcript right here.
	I just don't happen to remember exactly.
	It was more technical.
	It was more, let's get on with it.
	How about the first night you slept?
	Did you dream while you were on the moon?
	No, it was pretty fitful sleeping.
	It was what?
	It was fitful sleeping because we were anxious, we were tilted a little bit, we landed on a slope, and we had the feeling that we were tipping over.
	Now, we knew we weren't, but the bodily feeling, the sensation was one of tipping over.
	so we caught ourselves wanting to peek out the window every once in a while to make sure we weren't
	and of course we weren't, we knew that but it was a very strange feeling, not a good night's sleep
	at all when you leave the earth, doctor, and you leave the earth's
	gravitational effect and you're suddenly weightless can you explain to people who have probably always wondered
	what that feels like?
	The best simulation of it is underwater.
	If you're a scuba diver, go underwater, ballast, weightless.
	Close your eyes so you don't see which way the bubbles go and remain motionless.
	That's the way it feels.
	Or if you happen to be a pilot, you can go up and do a ballistic trajectory and let it
	kind of float like a rock floating through the sky and you'll get the same feeling.
	I've heard it described as one of falling, too.
	Falling?
	Well, yeah, that's what happens.
	It's the same sensation as falling.
	Did you have nausea, any illness, or did you just take to it like a fish to water?
	Well, we conditioned because some folks had inner ear vertigo, disorientation.
	We went up and practiced in our T-38 trainers doing all sorts of aerobatic maneuvers to push ourselves right to the verge of sickness and vertigo and train the inner ear so that we could control it.
	Did you enter all this with any Trepidation or great thought about it before you did it or was it just plunge ahead, hell yes, I want to do this?
	Well, my goal had been set since 1957 as I explained earlier.
	I think most of our class, there were 19 of us selected in 1966, most of our class had the feeling, you mean we get paid for doing this?
	Yes, I know that feeling.
	We were really eager to go do the job.
	Yes, but at that moment, when you were all up in that capsule, up on top of that great big potential bomb, there must have been a moment just before launch when you all looked at each other, busy as you must have been, and you sort of looked at each other and said, okay guys, here we go, knock on wood.
	Well, Stu Russo, deceased, could print in command module pilot.
	You used to call those moments sweaty palms time.
	Yeah, that's right.
	And every time we would ignite the engines, you'd say, OK, gentlemen, it's sweaty palms time again.
	Because there's always that moment of apprehension.
	Is it going to work?
	This equipment had never been tested in space.
	As you know, it was throwaway equipment.
	Once you use it, it's done.
	And so each piece of equipment is brand new.
	And you always have that concern when you start it off.
	Is it going to work properly?
	Um, Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Hi.
	Yes, good morning, Edgar.
	I'm a retired Air Force officer who had the occasion about 20 years ago to invite Bob Aldrin up to the Dallas Air Force Base for an awards ceremony and hosted him for a couple days.
	I consequently got to talk to him at length Well, he was open to talking about it.
	Sir, there's something wrong with your phone.
	Yeah, there's something wrong with your phone.
	He was reluctant to talk about his experiences and sightings of the UFOs.
	Was at that time, and is there still a precondition to talking about those kind of encounters?
	Well, we don't have any of those encounters, as far as I know, including Buzz.
	There may be things I don't know, but I don't believe so.
	Did Buzz Aldrin tell you he saw UFOs?
	Yes, he did.
	He said most of the astronauts had had some experiences with disks, lights... I'm sorry, that is simply not true.
	That's just not true.
	I don't know where you're getting your information, but... How about his experiences in specific?
	Well, if he's not aware of Ms.
	Chauldren's experiences, he can't comment on them, and as far as his are concerned, he said he had none, right?
	Right.
	So there you are.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Good morning.
	Where are you, please?
	Are you talking to me, R?
	It's you I'm talking to, yes.
	All right, good morning.
	I'm a long-time listener.
	It's the first time I ever called you.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Galveston County, not too far from NASA down here.
	I didn't know until the night that you and I walked on the same ground.
	I was an Air Force medic at Lackland Air Force Base for four years.
	Well, all they did to me at Lackland was give me eight weeks of hell.
	Well, I'm also a ham radio operator.
	Well, alright, then you're on 75 meters.
	There you are.
	We've got a lot in common, then.
	Yeah, let me... I've got something to talk about to the doctor there.
	Boy, this is a really interesting night, Art, and you're killing me.
	You keep me awake.
	I found out early in my teens that I was a psychic healer of sorts, and as I grew older, I discovered a lot more about it, and I did a lot of it.
	I never would charge anything for it, and it got to where it was aggravating.
	People would call me in the middle of the night to go take care of back pains and chronic problems I'm talking about.
	It kind of created some problems at home, so about 10 or 12 years ago, I just started dropping away and more or less going into denial with this thing.
	And I'm very careful about who I do it with now and who I take care of their problems, but I've been, 95% of the time I'm 100% effective and about 5% of the time I'm about 95% effective.
	My big question is, I don't know where this comes from and I never would charge anything for the gift, I guess you'd call it.
	I don't know where, my grandmother now was 100% Cherokee Indian.
	And my aunt was, too, and they had all sorts of things, clairvoyance and everything else.
	All right, well, let's ask where it does come from.
	Doctor, you related the experience with your mother.
	Yeah, it's the way we're built.
	We all have a capability.
	Now, not everyone is able to exercise as effectively as this gentleman can.
	It probably has a genetic component that allows us to manifest it, but it's really more the neural connections in the brain.
	We're now very convinced, and as a matter of fact, this is part of what we're trying to make some visuals with the North Tower Film Group on these areas.
	We're now quite convinced that we can train people to do all of these things, particularly if we begin prenatally.
	The brain is like any muscle in the sense that its capabilities, you either use them or lose them.
	It's amazing the number of capabilities that we have.
	It's very, very young children that because we don't exercise them or they are negated by doubting parents, those neurological connections then are pruned off.
	Nature does that.
	You either use them or lose them.
	But it turns out you can get them back, some of them, with arduous work much later in life.
	So they're not lost forever.
	But we all seem to have these rather amazing capabilities.
	I call them creative capabilities.
	It goes to the whole area of healing, psychokinetic stuff, the things that Uri Geller does, the healers that I work with, the gentleman that's our caller, everybody has these capabilities latent.
	And I'm convinced that they're emerging.
	We will learn to use them better.
	They're a part of our right-left brain complex.
	That we can very quickly learn to use better if we put an effort to it.
	Let's take the example of your mother and the story you told us.
	That healing, doctor, did that come to your mother from an external source, the healer, or did that come because your mother believed?
	Both.
	It's the interaction of the two.
	The healing comes from within us.
	The body knows how to heal itself.
	We have to get out of the way.
	And quite often someone else can help us get out of the way.
	So we've got to get our mind out of the way.
	I think the actual energy itself is the basic energy comes from within the body and the repository, the source of that energy is the zero point field.
	I think that more than likely, and this is speculative stuff, that probably the people that use acupuncture, the ancient orientals that learned acupuncture, that the little acupuncture needles are probably The mechanism for accessing the zero-point field so they're
	they're an energetic Mechanism and it's both it is both the healing comes from
	within ourselves But an external healer helps us access it all right west of
	the Rockies you're on the air with dr. Edgar Mitchell Good morning. Good morning. Where are you sir? I am in
	rolling Wyoming all right
	This question I like to pose kind of a multifaceted question I
	Me and a friend of mine discussed something about actual artificial intelligence.
	I'd like to know if the government or he or a group of his comrades have been working on anything like this, artificial intelligence in the form of like a cyborg or a robot.
	Well, we were actually discussing that a little earlier.
	No, very briefly on that.
	Artificial intelligence is just managing information.
	And we're being very, very successful at artificial ways or robotic ways or computerized ways to manage information.
	But the real question is, what is the difference between the way the biological organism manages information in a computer chip?
	I maintain that there's always going to be a difference.
	But we're getting pretty sophisticated with artificial intelligence.
	We are, and it's an interesting thing to wonder where it's going.
	Yeah, we don't have an answer to that.
	It's just going to go where we can take it.
	We're never really going to limit ourselves in terms of how far we go, are we?
	I mean, we're always going to have debates about whether we're getting in God's or the Creator's territory, but we're going there anyway, aren't we?
	I think that's true.
	The question is, What is the value system, the moral system, that we evolved to guide our volition?
	And it's very clear that we do not have the proper guidance for our current technologies.
	We are way ahead in our technological capability of our understanding of morality and ethics and so forth.
	That brings me to a very important point.
	Whether it's the HAARP project that I touched on a little while ago, Or it's scientists doing medical experimentation.
	For example, and I certainly don't necessarily object to it, but there was an experiment in San Francisco in which they attempted to inject a baboon's immune system into a human being who had AIDS and virtually destroyed his immune system and tried to substitute a baboon's.
	And the scientists After they announced it, Doctor, said, well, yes, there is some danger to humankind that some virus that was from the baboon may be introduced to human beings in this way.
	Some danger, but they went ahead and did it and sort of told us about it afterwards.
	So we are getting ahead of things in a lot of cases.
	Scientists are into areas where, to me, it's a little worrisome.
	You feel that, too?
	Well, I feel it's very, very worrisome.
	I'm very concerned about that.
	Uh, not understanding the implications of our decisions, particularly in genetic research, in this sort of biological research.
	You know, these viruses are organisms too, and they need to survive.
	The survival impulse runs throughout nature, and nature's going to try to find a way, each level, to make itself survive.
	We have to be quite careful about what we're doing here.
	We have to invent
	discover a new way of looking at morality and ethics
	derives from what is the nature of the universe
	that we're living in who are we really and those questions need to matter
	uh... do you think that the race between technology and our ability to control it
	morally or ethically is going to be lost or are we going to catch up to it
	and uh... as a to ourselves now wait a minute let's think a little bit before we do this
	I am an eternal optimist that we humankind will come to our senses, recognize the problem and deal with it.
	Will we have fits and starts and scare ourselves half to death and proceed along the course of the lemmings?
	Certainly for a while.
	It goes by fits and starts.
	It's not a smooth path.
	Doctor, we are utterly out of time, and so we're going to have to end it here, but I would like to say someday I would sure like to have you back again.
	Well, maybe we can work that.
	And it's been a pleasure being with you, Art.
	Thank you, and Dr. Mitchell, I'm going to give you the honors.
	The honors here are, just say goodnight, America.
	Good night, America.
	Thank you.
	Take care, Dr. Mitchell.
	Bye-bye, now.
	All right, that's Dr. Edgar Mitchell and Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Thank you all.
	It has been a glorious night, as always.
	Greenland Sunday, back with the syndicated program on Monday night, Tuesday morning.
	Thank you all from the high desert.

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