All Episodes
Previous Next
Sept. 26, 1997 - Art Bell
02:41:59
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Bob Lazar - UFOs and Area 51
| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM, from September 26th, 1997.
From the high desert, at the great American Southwest, I bid you all a good evening, or a good morning, as the case may be, across all these many prolific time zones.
Stretching from the Hawaiian and Haitian island chains in the West, eastward to the Caribbean, and the U.S.
Virgin Islands, and much more of the Caribbean, south into South America, north all the way to the Pole, And worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM.
Good morning.
You are about to experience history in the making this morning in more ways than one.
Coming up in a few moments, Bob Lazar and Gene Huff.
Bob Lazar, I'll tell you all about, as well as Gene, in a moment, in detail.
But, suffice to say, Bob is probably one of the best known people In all of ufology.
And has not done many interviews over the years.
Has kind of shunned them over the years.
I interviewed him many years ago.
Four or five, in fact.
So many that he doesn't even remember.
That was back when our present just about 400 radio stations were instead one.
So I can assure you, you have quite a treat coming up this morning.
Now, I would like to welcome K-N-S-T.
That's K-N-S-T-A-M in Tucson, Arizona.
Boy, are we ever glad to be on board full-time now in Tucson.
$7.90 in Tucson.
And such will be the case.
They'll also carry Dreamland on Sunday.
Now, one other little item.
This is going to be the weekend to get filthy rich on the Rogue Market.
The Rogue Market.
What is that?
Well, it is a strange kind of place, and a lot of fun.
It's more fun than you've had in a long time.
And this weekend is going to be the camper.
This weekend, my stock price is going to go over $12,000.
You watch and see.
And if you get in early, and you are part of all this early, you will make many rogue dollars.
You will then be able to convert those rogue dollars into rogue prizes.
Coffee mugs, that sort of thing.
It's just like the real stock market, except that it's not real money.
It really is a lot of fun, folks.
Anyway, coming up in a moment, Bob Lazar and Gene Huff.
**thunder** **music**
One more quick item, and then I think we're underway.
And this comes from the Associated Press.
Are you ready?
An unidentified wingless object traveling at high speed passed dangerously close to a Swissair jetliner, a 747, a Boeing 747, flying between Philadelphia and Boston, according to the airline on Friday.
The pilot and co-pilot gave U.S.
investigators different descriptions of the object that passed about, get this folks, 50 yards from the Boeing 747 after it had taken off from Philadelphia on August 9th.
The pilot told the U.S.
National Transportation Safety Board that the object was long and wingless.
Co-pilot said it was more spherical.
The incident took place at 23 The plane's final destination was Zurich, Switzerland.
That is from the Associated Press.
So, it looks like a 747 just had a close encounter with something.
All right, here we go.
Bob Lazar is the ex-government scientist who, in 1989, came forward with the fact That he had been part of a team of scientists who back-engineered extraterrestrial disks, flying saucers, in other words, at a base known as S-4, some 15 miles south of the infamous Area 51 at Groom Lake.
Bob's story is the main reason behind the state of Nevada changing the name of Nevada State Highway 375 The Highway to Area 51, or S-4, to its new name, the Extraterrestrial Highway.
Indeed.
Bob currently runs a company that manufactures and repairs alpha radiation detectors.
He also creates CGI computer-generated graphics and simulations for technical and legal demonstration videos for which He uses his mainframe supercomputer, which, by the way, is the second fastest computer in the state of Nevada, second only to the one at Nellis Air Force Base.
Bob also has a small photo processing lab in his home.
In his spare time, Bob does pyrotechnical and rocket research and throws Desert Blast, his annual fireworks blowout, at the Nevada desert.
And if memory serves, he also fools around with alternative fuels for cars.
He comes this morning with Gene Hough, Bob's longtime friend and business partner, who is the writer and co-producer of the Lazar tape.
Gene is a real estate appraiser and screenwriter.
His screenplay, S4, the Bob Lazar story, has recently been optioned and was chosen over three other screenplays on The Lazarus Story, written by writers Jim Cresson, I guess that's right, Cresson or Cresson, who wrote The Morning After, with Jeff Bridges and Jane Fonda, Roy Carlson, who wrote China Moon, with Ed Harris and Madeline Stowe, and David Rabay, I guess it would be Rabay, Rabay.
who wrote Casualties of War with Sean Penn and Michael J. Fox and co-wrote The Firm with Tom Cruise and Gene Hackman.
So, this is quite a coup, obviously, for an entry-level screenwriter.
But then again, Gene has had the inside track.
Good morning, Bob.
Are you there?
I'm here.
And Gene, are you there?
Yes, sir.
Welcome to you both.
Thank you.
Bob, is it really true It had to have been four, maybe five years ago that I interviewed you in concert with John Lear.
You know, I honestly don't remember that.
My friends tell me I have about the worst memory that can be had, but from what I recall, years ago I remember John Lear apparently booking me on your show and never telling me about it.
I remember that.
I really don't remember ever doing the show.
No, there was a time, maybe even a couple of years before that, when we had you on for a short while.
All right, I think he called in.
That was it?
He called in when Lear was on the show.
That's what it was.
Yes, yes, yes.
Well, I don't even remember that, but I'll take everyone's word for it.
All right.
Well, in fact, we now have such a gigantic audience out there that hardly anybody knows who you are, Bob, except for, of course, you know, ufologists and so forth.
Who would be very familiar with your story.
So, the great majority of the audience, 99%, have no idea who Bob Lazar is.
Now, I guess that means we have to begin at the beginning.
With regard to how you... Well, first of all, Bob, you're a physicist, correct?
Uh-huh.
Or was at the time.
Was at the time, yeah.
How did you become involved with or begin to get involved with whatever it is out there at Area 51 or specifically S4?
Well let me try and give you the Reader's Digest version.
Some years ago I was working at Los Alamos National Labs in New Mexico.
One particular day I I was going down to the lecture hall to hear Edward Teller speak, who, as most people know, is the father of the hydrogen bomb.
I got down there a little early because I wanted to get in, assuming there was going to be a crowd of people.
Actually, to my surprise, there was hardly anyone there.
Coincidentally, that day, the local newspaper in town, The Monitor, had printed a front-page article on me.
Right outside the lecture hall was Dr. Teller reading the front page of the paper.
So I thought it was the perfect opportunity to introduce myself and just say hi.
Absolutely.
It was just a casual meeting and the only reason I bring it up is years later I had moved out of Los Alamos after I quit working for the lab.
I opened up my own business that did some contract work for the lab.
Also started a one-hour Photoshop for my wife that she ran there.
We later moved out of Los Alamos to Las Vegas and again some time later I decided, you know, I had missed working in the scientific community so I decided to get back in and send out resumes.
I sent them out really all over the place to the places where I'd essentially like to live.
Livermore, I really don't remember where else, but one of the other resumes I sent was to Dr. Teller's attention.
I had referenced our meeting back then.
A short time later, I got a call from him.
He did remember me, to my surprise, and said, we might have a position you're interested in.
I said, great.
I went down and was interviewed.
At that time, there were a couple.
I really don't know what's there now.
Someone tells me there's still one building, but there used to be two before they expanded the airport.
One was special projects and I don't know what the other one was, but in either case, I was told to go down there for an interview.
The interview was relatively short and I really don't remember Specifically what the job entailed, but they told me I was basically overqualified and would become bored with it in a short time.
I said fine, but they said we might have something else in the future for you.
I said fine, okay, and basically went back home.
Figuring they had blown you off.
Right.
I really don't remember what the job was, but it didn't really even sound too exciting to me, so it really didn't.
You recall anything about a technician level or something that would have been boring?
I really don't.
When I go through most of this stuff, people are amazed.
Boy, how come you can't remember these facts?
This is a fantastic point in your life.
It's also a decade old now, and it's hard to remember specifics here and there.
However, as it turned out, they did call back and had another position.
The position was stated to be something that was involving a field propulsion system, which to me, in my mind, sounded something along the lines of Some electromagnetic propulsion, something that might be used in space.
Maybe, I don't know, an ion drive system using mercury vapor or something like that.
You've always been fascinated by propulsion systems.
Anything.
Anything exerts tremendous amount of energy from explosives to high energy weapons, anything along those lines.
Propulsion.
And coincidentally, the article that Dr. Teller was reading was About a car that I had converted to run on a jet engine.
Now, you see, I remembered that.
And then you converted another one, I believe, to run on hydrogen, didn't you?
Actually, I'm really surprised that you remember that.
I don't remember... That is one of the number one things I get asked about.
I know, I have a good memory about it.
For some things.
But in either case, I...
After a more or less lengthy interview, I accepted the job.
Of course, I had to go back a second time.
Can you remember any of the details of this rather lengthy interview?
Was a lot of it security-oriented?
Well, there were certainly a lot of security-oriented questions and so forth later on.
However, keep in mind that I had just come from Los Alamos a couple of years before, where I had two clearance, civilian, top-secret clearance.
And they really didn't have to go and dig deep back into my past to see if I was of Russian descent or anything along those lines.
Basically, the job just seemed like a...
You know typical research and development job.
I was anxious to get started on it and things went on.
All they told me is that it was in a remote area out in the desert and that initially I would fly out there maybe once, possibly twice a week just to kind of get caught up on stuff and they had to reinstate my clearance which would take perhaps a couple weeks Maybe a month at the latest.
Sure.
And so in the meantime, I was given busy, essentially busy work to do.
Or at least that's how it rang in my mind.
And this is typical, too, at Los Alamos.
You know, if you're initially hired there before your clearance goes through, sometimes, you know, obtaining Q clearance can take up to 13 months.
So they don't just have you sit at home.
You'll, you know, before you go to work, go to the lab, sit around and work on alarm systems or something like that.
I had no idea what this would actually entail until I got into it.
That rings true.
I was in the Air Force.
They did that to us all the time.
Yeah, it's pretty common.
So I thought, well, that's very typical.
I had no idea what this would actually entail until I got into it.
And obviously, looking through their eyes, I guess it made sense that they couldn't,
of course, divulge what this job would actually entail before they had gone through all the
security and whatnot.
But that's essentially how the job came about.
Alright, one thing that I would think you would remember is your impressions of Mr. Teller.
I do, as far as what?
Well, what kind of guy was he?
Just simple questions.
What kind of guy was he?
He was...
He seems to have two faces, you know, which is strange.
In talking to him one-on-one, he's a very polite, pleasant, intelligent man.
However, virtually any interview you'll see of this guy, he comes across as the most pompous, mean person you have ever run into in your life.
Pompous and mean.
I don't know how else to describe him, but he was not nearly as short, not physically speaking.
If you see him in interviews, you'll see him answer questions specifically to the point, short, and on to the next question, and not be very talkative, not offer any information other than what you're immediately talking about.
In person, he was certainly not that way.
He was the exact opposite, very pleasant.
And willing to talk about anything.
Will you talk about nuclear weapons or anything?
Well, that's what I was going to ask about.
Last night I interviewed Professor Michio Kaku, a very preeminent physicist back at New York University.
And he too has worked with Professor Teller.
And I asked Professor Kaku why he had not participated in the hydrogen bomb development.
And he said he simply chose not to, he wanted to go into a different direction with physics, and had quite a bit to say about Edward Teller.
And apparently he was consumed during the Cold War years with national security, you know, with being concerned about national security and... This is Dr. Teller, your time is up.
Yes, uh-huh, and developing bombs, and in fact even today, The programs go on, I guess, with the third generation of hydrogen bombs, sort of designer bombs, Professor Kaku said.
Anyway, that's why I asked you about Edward Teller.
Listen, everybody hold tight, we're at the bottom of the hour and we'll be right back.
Bob Lazar and Gene Huff are my guests, and the story that you're about to hear unfold We'll curl your hair.
I'm Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time, on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight an encore presentation of Costa Costean from September 26th, 1997.
And it's a celebration of what I am. It's all clear to me now. My heart is on fire. My soul's like a wheel that's
turning.
Bye.
My love is alive.
My love is alive.
My love is alive, yeah, yeah, yeah There's something inside that's making me crazy
I'll try to keep it together I'm in love, yeah, yeah, yeah
Ooh, and it's all right, it's moving on We gotta get right back to where we started from
Love is good, love can be strong We gotta get right back to where we started from
Love is good, love can be strong Do you remember that day, that sunny day
When you first came my way I said no one can take your place
You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time The night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM
From September 26th, 1997 My guests are Bob Lazar, a long-awaited interview
Along with Gene Hough And we'll get back to them in a moment
www.artbell.com Now back to Bob Lazar and Gene Huff.
Gentlemen, you're back on the air again.
All right, Bob.
So, you got the job.
You landed the job, and they had you doing busy work, and then what?
Well, busy work hadn't started.
That's what I thought was going to happen.
Instead, where did we leave off?
Well, actually, with busy work, they were kind of... Well, you know, he had anticipated busy work, but now you had to go to work the first day.
Yeah, essentially.
I guess, essentially, it was to get caught up with what was going on.
And really, to my surprise, the security was a little more than oppressive.
You know, generally, you're just assigned a badge and shown the general procedures and things of that sort.
This was a little different.
Are you still talking about the facility near Las Vegas, or are you talking about being flown up there?
No, this is when finally I was flown.
I go to McCarran Airport, right by the EG&G building, and I'd be flown to Groom Lake.
As I landed there the first time, right across from where the plane parked, there's a security office, or was a security office, I believe I spent quite a while there reviewing how secure things are and so on and so forth, but this is not where I worked.
Where I did work was about, from my estimates, about 10 or 15 miles south of there.
We were taken there in a converted school bus, those big blue birds.
A job that was painted kind of a dark navy blue.
There's a lot of people, Bob, who don't even believe that Area 51 exists, by the way, much less S4.
I live out here in Pahrump, Bob.
Oh, I think, I mean, people... I can tell you... People don't believe Area 51 exists?
Well, there are a lot of people who don't.
But I can tell you, Bob, when you drive up by the VFW here in Pahrump at about 4.30 or 5 in the morning, there's a whole bunch of buses out there, and they've got signs right on the side of the buses.
I saw it about a month ago.
And it just says Area 51.
Oh, really?
Yeah, oh yeah.
Well, they're not bothering anymore to keep that secret.
I guess.
Anyway, so then they take you in some, from Groom Lake, the main facility, and incidentally, Bob, up on my website I've got a picture, a pretty good one, the best one I've ever seen, of the Groom Lake facility, and it shows what appears to be three Three large hangars.
Yeah, three big hangars.
perhaps being largest is that your recollection three large hangers
yes rebate hangers uh... there are a lot of other attendant buildings but
three rather large hangers i don't recall there being three you know obviously large
hangers on the on the approach and from las vegas
you know that that stood out that much above everything else
Okay.
I recall a huge satellite dish, but for the most part, most of the time I was going there at night and certainly didn't have a run of the place.
All I did was get to go in one time I got to go to the cafeteria, but other than that it was merely a stop.
Tour Des 4.
Yeah, Tour Des 4, but I don't recall there being three large hangars really that stood out more than anything else.
Did you ever see anything unusual at all at Groom Lake?
The thing I did see that was unusual was some sort of advanced rocket or jet plane.
People have called it Aurora.
I don't know if it was Aurora or Or if it even exists, but John Andrews from the Tester Corporation and a few other aviation buffs kind of interviewed me more or less about that.
It was something along the lines of an X-15 shaped type of craft.
Now we were driving away from this as it was taxing, but it was a horrendously loud tearing sound that the engines made and I think my original description was that it made it sound like the air was tearing and that's the best description I could give to it and I certainly have heard about the new generation of scramjet engines that have supersonic airflow inside that burn liquid methane and so on and so forth whether that was these I don't know but I did get a look up the exhaust as we were turning
And it was, uh, they were rectangular exhaust with some sort of veins inside.
That's all the information I can give, and what it was, I don't know.
But that was the strangest thing I ever saw.
Do you recall the general shape of the aircraft?
Was it close to what we would call a lifting body?
No.
Well, even though the X-15 was a lifting body, it was not a lifting body like you'd see on an F-16 or something, where there'd be a, you know, a lot more A lot more wing incorporated into the body.
It was more along the lines of a long, slender body.
Maybe the cross between an F-104 and an X-15 for those people that are familiar with those planes.
Very short, stubby wings, which translates to me, high speed of rotation, high flight speed, and things like that.
But again, I didn't get A very good look at it.
I don't know.
It could have been a scientific research vehicle or anything.
I'm certainly not claiming that was Aurora.
Sometime later, some of those people were down in Rachel and they heard and recorded a sound that they interpreted as the sky tearing.
And played it back to me, and it was, in fact, the identical sound.
So a couple years later, it was still operational, whatever that thing was.
But that was the only unusual thing I ever saw there.
All right, so you landed, and they generally then, uh, you, I guess, get off on the tarmac there and get right on a bus?
Yeah.
Well, straight across from where the plane parked, head end, straight across from there in kind of a large parking area was the security building.
And that's where we picked up the bus and went south.
The first time I did go in, and it was an extensive little get-together with the security people there, and signed all kinds of strange forms.
Were there a lot of people on the bus?
No, not going down to S4.
Generally, the person that accompanied me all the time was Dennis Mariani, who was my supervisor at that time.
And so then they had you sign all kinds of forms.
What kind of forms?
Well, everything from virtually signing away my constitutional rights, so should anything go wrong as far as me spilling my guts, they would essentially be judge, jury, and executioner.
As far as the authorization To attain the clearance there, that was an order that was signed by President Reagan, which I saw on the desk.
I'm trying to remember some of the other paperwork.
Beforehand, I gave permission to have my phone lines monitored.
Boy.
And can you remember any of the wording?
I mean, you said you signed something that would allow them, if you blabbed, to be judged during... Well, I had signed something like that.
Yeah, I mean, that may be a slight exaggeration of how the wording was, but certainly I signed, I'm trying to remember what it was, like a 10-10 agreement.
If you've heard that before, I don't remember the exact title of the document, but, you know, it says if you violate international security secrets, you're, you know, it's 10 years in jail and a $10,000 fine.
Does that sound familiar to you?
It does.
I've signed something like that before, but this is certainly far above and beyond that.
Which was kind of shocking, actually.
But at the time, you know, you pretty much just blow it off and say, all this means is that I'm going to be involved in something, you know, extremely interesting.
And, you know, it's great.
So what?
You know, I'm not, I have no intention of violating any rules or, you know, causing any problems.
So there's no sweat.
I understand.
I mean, by that time, you're being probably tantalized thinking, Oh, really?
I was, you know, really pumped up.
It's going to be real fun.
Exactly.
All right.
So you sign all the forms, including one to tap your phone, huh?
Right.
That was, again, before I went down there.
That was down at EG&G, and I gave them permission to do that.
But that was only for a limited amount of time.
I don't recall how long that was for.
To me, that's kind of a silly thing to do in the first place, because if you're going to monitor my phone, why tell me?
It kind of defeats the purpose.
Maybe because otherwise they have to go through some sort of legal procedure and get some sort of court something or another.
Yeah, but you would think in the interest of national security they could circumvent all that.
Well, they probably do actually.
I had actually doubted that they were actually doing that.
You know, once in a while everyone hears little clicks and pops and buzzes on their phone.
You know, I really didn't think that was it.
My view is a good tap is one you never hear.
Well, this is my point exactly.
Sometime later, I guess we'll get into that, but when things turned sour, actually before they did, they had come to my house 30 minutes after I got off the phone with Gene one day and we were joking around on the phone, they came to my front door 30 minutes later with a transcript of our conversation and Outlined were the questionable phrases that I had spoken.
Now, this is amazing to me, considering the closest FBI building down here is on Charleston and Maryland Parkway.
I mean, that's an amazing feat.
It almost makes me think they had a little mobile setup somewhere.
Well, it is.
You're a computer guy, and I've heard, maybe you could confirm this for me, That the NSC has the ability to have supercomputers which virtually are monitoring perhaps even millions of conversations, looking not at the entire conversation, but listening for key words.
Well, that's how they caught that drug kingpin down in, where is it, Panama or Mexico?
That's right, and that was cellular.
They scanned every single phone line and just Picked out certain words and grabbed them.
So I encourage my audience to constantly, in the middle of a conversation, just simply say, Kilo!
Kilo!
Actually, we say assassination, president, things like that.
So, onward to Area S4.
I guess, is it a paved road or a bumpy little ride?
It's quite a bumpy little ride.
A dirt road down there follows along the base of the mountain, and coming up to the facility, it's right off of Papoose Dry Lakebed.
And there's a small mountain range on the side, and built right into the side of the mountain is the installation itself, the S-4 installation, and it's composed of hangar doors around one side, and then, I guess I believe on the East.
No, on the south-facing side, there is the main entrance into the facility.
Were the windows on the bus darkened, or could you see out as you were?
No, you could.
The only place you could see out was the front.
On the bus, most of the times I had gone down there was the driver or security guard and Dennis Mariani.
The security guard almost always stood right up front Not sitting down, but holding that bar, you know, which is right by the door on those buses.
Sure.
I don't know if it was in an effort to block my view out there or just to intimidate me and stare at me.
But that's how he rode the entire trip down there, so it was always difficult to see exactly where we were.
And what was in between.
Right.
Well, there's really nothing in between, pretty much desert.
Dennis Mariani, who was he?
He was my supervisor.
What his exact position was was pretty much unclear to me.
He's a stocky guy, smokes a cigar, kind of military-looking, short blonde hair.
He's about the best I could describe him.
Maybe late thirties, early forties.
Not gregarious, more security-like?
Yes.
So I really don't know what his exact function was in the world.
He didn't wear a military uniform, though, did he, Bobby?
No, no, he didn't.
Right, a civilian.
But you can kind of tell military guys.
Yeah, just by the way they look.
And the way they comport themselves and so forth and so on.
Right, you know, again, this is my guesstimation of what this guy was about.
Was he your constant shadow?
Was he with you all the time?
For the most part, for the most part, until I learned how Things operated there.
I guess I shouldn't jump ahead that far yet.
Well, I might as well.
For the most part, for science to progress anywhere, if you're doing any sort of research whatsoever, one of the things that is vital is free discussion, open and free discussion amongst the people that are working on the project.
Okay, right.
Well, obviously, you know, it's how ideas are bounced off other people, and that's the only way things can progress.
Wasn't that one of the main contentious points during the development of the atomic bomb in the Manhattan Project?
Everything was compartmentalized.
And the military just loves to do that.
And the scientists just hate it, because they want to bounce ideas off each other.
Exactly.
So you're saying, really, in 1989, that was still going on?
Well, probably.
How would I know how bad it was during the atomic age?
It was very oppressive, so much so that our job was very compartmentalized.
Every aspect was split into groups of people.
Groups of people are quite literally two people.
You work on the buddy system.
In other words, the only person I can talk to, the only person I can discuss anything with, the only person I can relate to is the one person who I work with.
Any other aspect of the project, any other questions, are simply not to be asked.
So immediately, you're interfering with your progress in that if whatever you're doing interacts with anything else anywhere, Uh, you know, you've run into a black wall.
You don't even really know if you're the first person to come down and be assigned this task, do you?
Exactly.
In fact, I was told that I wasn't.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
But, um, yeah, you really have no idea what's going on.
And I'm sure if you found that, well, Part A connects to Part B, which we're not allowed to see, you know, and, you know, I'm sure there would be No, that's true.
Actually, one of the questions I've always had is why did they hire me?
I'm not the first person assigned that task, but this might be an interesting point to
tell them why you were told you were hired.
No, that's true.
Actually one of the questions I've always had is why did they hire me?
Certainly for this project, I would not be the most intelligent, the most resourceful
person that they could possibly hire out of all the people at Los Alamos or anywhere else
in the world for that matter.
So I've always wondered exactly why they would have picked me.
And so why then did they?
I still don't know.
I've always wondered this.
I've ran a lot of things through my mind.
You know, different possible scenarios and really none of them make any sense.
Was it because Edward Teller just thought I was a nice guy and essentially juiced me into the position?
Yeah, it sounds that way.
Yeah, but in a project like this, why would something like that happen where every person counts?
You're talking in a project where there are only actually 22 active people working on it.
Yeah, but when Teller speaks, the military listens.
Yeah, that's true, but I didn't know him well enough.
As far as my scientific background, it was actually fairly limited.
I mean, I was working at Los Alamos working with the accelerator at that point, so it really wasn't a propulsion-based job, anything to do with what I was about to I have my hands on.
Maybe they assumed you did have the right background.
Maybe they didn't really know what they had on their hands.
Well, one of the... I tell you, we're coming up on a break, and we'll pick up on this point when we get back.
Everybody relax, it'll be a good one.
Bob Lazar and Gene Hough are my guests.
Belt in, it's gonna be a good one.
You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
Coast to Coast is a new series of episodes of the Coast to Coast series.
The series is based on a true story, and the show is based on a true story.
In addition to the series, there are also other episodes of Coast to Coast.
Coast to Coast is a series of episodes of the Coast to Coast series.
The series is based on a true story, and the show is based on a true story.
Guarded, but better.
Not only is he out of intensive care, but he's out of the hospital as of late afternoon and convalescing at an undisclosed location.
So he can get some real rest.
That is the latest.
It goes well.
I'll keep you updated as I can.
Next update coming Sunday on Dreamland.
I'm Art Bell.
Bob Lazar and Gene Huff are my guests.
And the story that you're about to hear unfold is indeed an amazing, amazing story.
So, you know, turn up the volume.
Don't move.
rivet yourself and standby back now to bob lazar and gene huff and the story continues
Here we are at Area S4, south of Groom Lake, and I guess by now you're in great anticipation, Bob, wondering what you're going to be doing.
I was.
Actually, I was just about to make a point before we broke, and I can't remember it.
Well, that's why you have Gene Hough.
Gene?
Gene doesn't remember either.
Gene doesn't remember either.
I think my short-term memory was outdated.
He was talking right before we broke about it.
He had no idea why they chose him of all the people in the world.
Actually, Gene, you had said, why don't you tell them, Bob, why they chose you?
And Bob said, I have no idea.
And we were talking about the work he did at Los Alamos.
Right.
I was implying something else.
In other words, I was reminding him of why there were vacancies, why they needed to hire someone, why someone wasn't in his lottery.
And we were talking about the fact that he was not the first one, necessarily.
That makes sense.
In other words, if they had something they didn't understand, I can imagine they would bring in an array of people of different disciplines to take a look-see.
Well, that might have been the case.
To this day, I can't figure out why.
Certainly, you look at my record and the way I approach things and the work I had done before was a little more renegade and maybe that's what they were doing.
I was looking for someone that would approach a project from a different road.
Are you able to talk about what you did at Los Alamos?
I did several things.
Initially, I was working on the polarized proton target on the accelerator.
The accelerator there at Los Alamos is a linear accelerator.
It stretches about, if I remember, about a half mile.
And it's one of the more unique setups in that instead of running a single experiment on the output of the accelerator, the beam is split into different areas.
And all these different areas are, I don't know really if they're leased or rented to other countries or other scientists, But several other people and other groups from all over the
world essentially can conduct experiments simultaneously At different times they'll
fire different particles down the target for different lengths of time and
You know everyone can run their own experiments, and you know see what's going on. There was also some Star Wars
development done there Okay
I'm sitting here listening trying to imagine any application for what you were about to do and
You don't at s4 Yeah.
There's none.
There was no direct connection at all.
This is one of the things that has perplexed me forever.
But how could there be?
Maybe this was the point that I was going to make.
In fact, it just popped back in my mind.
What was strange about the interviews I had had was You know, certainly there were some technical questions here and there.
They essentially knew my background already, but what they were most concerned with was what I had done in my spare time, which I found to be very unusual.
Now, what had you done in your spare time?
propulsion systems in your spare time. Right, I mean they were essentially concerned with more of my, you know,
for lack of a better word, play time than they were with what I was or what I had currently done.
All right, well, let's take this back to Edward Teller.
When you had a conversation with Edward Teller, did you talk about your play time?
Did you talk about... Well, I was talking about, at that time, the static ramjet engine.
In fact, that was in the front of the paper.
So we were talking about... In fact, at that time, I had filed patents on it, of how the device operated without the need for fuel pumps and things of that sort, because of the type of fuel it used.
What is a static ramjet engine?
It was an offshoot of a pressure jet engine, which was invented by Eugene Gluharff, who was also, coincidentally, the inventor of the rocket ejection sheet that's used on all fighter aircraft.
Indeed.
He developed that, I believe, in the 50s, and in the 70s I had run into him.
Really, as a kid back then, I started working in my spare time as I went to Pierce College at that time, working to improve on the design.
I came off with an offshoot of the design, which was a little more complicated, but produced a lot more thrust.
The basic design of the engine is that it has no moving parts at all.
One property of propane is that it sticks to hot metal.
This eliminates all the needs for flame holders and things of that sort inside the engine, which makes it more complicated.
I'm trying to think of a couple other points about it.
It was a pretty different design as far as jet engines go.
And with the changes I made, it was essentially a different type of engine.
And after I had gone past The development of it on a test stand.
I've built a slightly larger one and installed it in the back of a car.
And it was a convenient mobile test setup.
As opposed, well, and additionally, it was something kind of interesting to play around with in the desert.
Sure.
Which is where the whole article came from in the newspaper.
All right, well, then I think you've answered your own question.
But, Dylan, playing around with jet engines really doesn't qualify.
No, but then again, who does have qualifications to go work on something?
Well, there's a point.
So I can understand, and here's how I would, based on what you said, I'll bet here's what happened.
The article in the paper, the conversation with Edward Teller, and probably his suggestion, which probably amounts to more of an order, That you'd be a good person, kind of a rebel, to go take a look at this stuff they had at Area S4.
That would be my best guess.
That's a pretty good guess.
What do you think, Gene?
I agree.
I think that Edward Teller's word carried all the weight in the world, and I also agree with you that who would have a background, who would be qualified to work on You know, a gravity propulsion system and an antimatter reactor and the things Bob later ran into, and Bob's a comprehensive problem solver as a background in physics and electronics and propulsion, and I can understand why they'd hire him.
Well, yeah, if you're going to go, if you really have extraterrestrial craft and you're trying to figure out what makes them go, then you're going to go find somebody who works out of the box.
In other words, is a bit of a rebel and kind of works out of the normal box and experiments and tinkers and is interested in propulsion.
That's the kind of person you're going to go for because there's nobody out there with specific qualifications for that job.
Yeah, obviously.
In addition to probably other considerations of a psychological profile and, you know.
Yeah, that they were also very concerned with.
Your psychological profile?
Yeah, they were concerned with how I handle stress.
In fact, I remember one of the questions was, you know, have you ever thrown tools around in the lab or anything to that effect?
These were very strange questions for what we were talking about.
Well, in either case, I got the job and wound up there.
Haven't you ever thrown tools?
No, actually, I haven't.
I have.
I've kicked radios, too.
One all the way across the room, put my foot through it.
So then, you seem qualified in most every way, as much as one could be qualified for that.
So here you come to S4, and were you immediately led into this area where these craft were?
No, absolutely not.
In fact, the first day there, I went in and I think my first stop was to go to the medical office there.
I believe there was a nurse in there.
I'm pretty sure that was my first stop and I had to go through a series of what I was told were allergen tests.
They took my arm and drew a little graph on it and pricked each little area in my arm with different little needles.
In fact, I was not permitted back to work, I think for two weeks, until there was a reaction Or if there was to be a reaction with any of the substances they put on my skin.
And they said, you know, we're working with some extremely exotic materials here that we're not all that familiar with.
And we want to know if there's going to be any problem with it.
And I said, well, that's again, odd, but acceptable.
And I was also given an injection there too, which was a, yeah, which was a wide spectrum.
Hmm.
What did they call it?
Antibiotic?
No, it wasn't a white spectrum antibiotic.
It was a white spectrum something or other.
Hmm.
It's always good to know what they're shooting you with.
Yeah.
Now, I mean, there have been so many, I'm sure which we'll get into later, you know, so many ridiculous stories, offshoots of what actually had happened to me.
Um, you know, people said, Oh, well, they injected you with Thorazine or so on, or this was the memory drug that wiped out your memory.
So you could only remember back and forth and you know, so on and so forth.
But I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case.
This was, uh, they were mainly concerned about the, uh, so, you know, here you're dealing with actual extraterrestrial materials.
And, uh, if we're going to be crawling around on them, taking things apart and having contact with them, you know, they imagine, They want to make sure that the people working on it are fairly safe.
That, in one hand, weighed against the fact that, don't forget, the United States government fed fallout to people from time to time and did other strange things to them.
When you originally told your story, Bob, years ago, that wasn't known.
Hazel O'Leary was not around yet, and everybody regarded your story as absolutely incredible beyond belief, but then when Hazel O'Leary stepped out and said the following occurred, everybody went into kind of a stupor and said, my God, we did that?
So, your story isn't so out of line.
Well, a lot has actually changed in the past ten years.
If you remember, you know, ten years ago, too, the predominant theory about how gravity propagates In any physics textbook, you know, related to gravitons.
And now the predominant theory is gravitational waves, which is exactly how some of... and some scientists and physicists of that time, you know, pointed out one of the many reasons they say the... the reason this story can't be true was that this is absolutely ridiculous, so on and so forth, and now it's spoken of as a matter of fact.
This is how gravity propagates through space.
It's interesting to see how things slowly, over the span of a decade, quietly change.
That's one thing I do keep an eye on.
I think your arm didn't break out inappropriately, so you passed.
I think it did develop a small eruption somewhere, but it was nothing to be concerned about, or so I was told.
So we just proceeded from there.
As you know, there is a group of people suing the government over illnesses they have suffered from work they did at Area 51.
And that is proceeding quietly in court.
It's not going to be so quiet when it goes to trial, but that's underway now.
So indeed, there are some pretty exotic materials up there.
Actually, you just reminded me of something.
When was that, Gene?
Was it right after that where I collapsed from the kidney?
Do you remember that?
Was that there or after I had left the project?
No, you were still in the project.
That was right after that.
Right after they did these tests and gave me a shot.
It's kind of surprising.
I forget that.
Very strange substance.
All I remember is that you were at a Toyota dealer or something like that.
He was in such pain.
His kidneys hurt so bad he thought he was going to die.
To that point, Bob had never had any health problems or had never had any sedatives or painkillers, and the doctor gave Bob a shot of Demerol.
Demerol!
And I called him and he was floating on cloud nine.
It wasn't even coherent, and I came to his help to see what was wrong.
He was literally high from a painkiller they gave him just so he could stand the pain in his kidneys.
Whatever went through his system certainly stuck there.
Yeah, so there was an adverse reaction to something.
Do you think that was, well, of course you have no way of knowing whether it was the allergy test they put you through or the shot they gave you?
Or was it an amazing coincidence that, you know... But he had no prior kidney problem.
Yeah, I mean, it is, you know... Well, I take it you went to the doctor?
I did, yeah.
What'd he say?
I don't remember.
I think he said...
He gave me a shot of painkiller, Demerol I believe it was, and he took a urine sample, a blood test, and he asked if I had any previous problems, anything strange, and obviously I said no, no, no.
I certainly didn't mention anything about getting an injection in a strange place in the middle of the desert.
Didn't they do x-rays or a CAT scan or something?
Yeah, they did just an x-ray to see if there was any blockage.
But a day later, or I think even the next morning, everything was fine.
The x-rays came back negative, and I believe the blood work came back negative too, as did the urine sample.
In fact, I think his conclusion was that perhaps I had passed a small stone.
That's how little bits and pieces come back.
I wound up in my bladder and it would probably hurt coming out again.
But that never occurred and whether or not that scenario was correct is just speculation.
You just stirred that up in my memory.
I don't think I've even mentioned it.
That's right.
That's how little bits and pieces come back.
How's your health now, by the way, and since then?
Okay.
Oh, fine.
No problem.
All right.
So anyway, you pass all their little tests.
Pass all that.
The next thing to happen was that I was let into a room with quite a number of little briefing packages.
Briefing papers.
These range from two pages to about five pages.
Little folders with different aspects of the project.
That I was working on.
This was, I believe, part of the first day and the second day that I was working there.
So they just sat you down at a table and had you begin to read about... Yeah, these were just basic overviews of what each group was doing, just essentially That's a good place to break, so relax.
what the other facets of the project were about general overall right has no
specifics whatsoever but it's if in uh...
for instance of the group of metallurgy and so on and so forth
alright uh...
well to contain some of the names of the project or did
alright uh... that's a good place to break so relax will be back shortly
the story you're hearing is a remarkable one and we're beginning to hear new
details because Bob's remembering new details.
Bob Lazar and Gene Hough are my guests.
The subject, Area 51, more specifically Area S-4, where, as you will hear shortly, extraterrestrial craft were back-engineered.
Yes, that's what Bob did.
I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight an encore presentation of Costa Costean from September 26, 1997.
The Costean Orchestra, the Costean Orchestra, the Costean Orchestra, the Costean Orchestra,
the Costean Orchestra, the Costean Orchestra, the Costean Orchestra, the Costean Orchestra,
Your ginger kiss Yes.
Don't leave me this way.
Baby!
My heart is full of love and desire for you.
Now come on down and do what you gotta do.
You started this fire down in my soul.
Now can't you see it's burning like a torch?
Wow, men sing Or they feel
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in...
And Bob Lazar and Gene Hoffer here.
It's the story of a lifetime.
And we're trying to develop it slowly and get as many details as we can.
But we're about to get to the very interesting part here.
December 26, 1997.
Well, here I am.
And Bob Lazar and Gene Hufford here.
It's the story of a lifetime.
And we're trying to develop it slowly and get as many details as we can.
But we're about to get to the very interesting part here.
So hang with us.
DNR December 26, 1997
Now back to Bob Lazar and Gene Hufford.
Now, you're welcome to fax in a question.
As a matter of fact, I already have many, but I'm going to hold them until the story unfolds completely.
Then, we'll ask some of the faxed questions.
Then, we'll go to the phones.
So, if your dialing finger is itchy, and it is because they're all ringing, just relax.
We'll get to the phones in due time.
Right now, let us unwind the story.
Back to Bob Lazar and Gene Huff.
Gentlemen, you're back on the air again.
All right, so here we are.
You're in a little room with a bunch of briefing papers, giving you more or less an outline, but not specifics, of the work being done.
Actually, at that point, did they state what it was that was being worked on?
Well, at this point, yeah.
This is the first time I really knew exactly what I would be doing.
And this is where it was stated that The project was essentially that of back engineering and extraterrestrial craft.
That must be quite a line to read.
Well it was and it was also hard to believe.
Certainly going into the project I was basically a nuts and bolts guy and certainly didn't believe in UFOs and thought everyone was crazy that even considered the topic.
I certainly believe that there was Life elsewhere, certainly life can exist on other planets, other galaxies, other solar systems, but I just found it very hard to believe that there was any intelligent life visiting Earth.
You had never had any close encounter of the third kind?
No.
No, and I thought people were basically crackpots.
Whacked out.
But also, Art, he was into science and technology, and he certainly wasn't well-read.
I mean, he had never heard of the You know, Betty and Barney Hill case, or he didn't know anything about the Roswell crash or anything along those lines.
I mean, he wasn't interested.
He didn't pursue it.
And if you all remember, really a decade ago, I mean, some of that information was available, but certainly wasn't prevalent to the point that it is today with websites and movies and television shows.
Oh, indeed.
As a matter of fact, before we proceed, Bob, I'd be very, very interested to hear your reaction I have interviewed now twice, very rare interviews by the way, hours long interviews, with Colonel Philip Corso.
And I'm kind of interested to get your reaction to Colonel Corso's revelations about the back engineering and insertion into American industry he did of artifacts from the Roswell crash.
Were you surprised to hear about that?
This is the first time hearing about this.
Ha!
Is that right?
What is the third entity?
Alright, Philip J. Corso, Colonel.
I, believe it or not, I really am completely uninterested in the topic UFOs and never follow it at all.
Alright, well this is... I'm in the dark as follows.
Fine.
This is a man who was given the job.
He's now 82 years of age, by the way.
He was given the job of... He was actually handed a filing cabinet.
by a general and he was given a job of figuring out what some of these things
were and introducing them
into american industries specifically bell labs and some others at the time
and these were artifacts from roswell and he is very very credible
he wrote a book called the day after roswell what specifically
uh... what devices Devices that led to, and it's gonna be hard.
Night vision scopes, for example.
Fiber optics, for example.
The transistor, for example.
A lot of leaps that, by the way, particularly the transistor, there's not much of a paper trail for.
If you look back at the development in Bell Labs of the transistor, there's not a big paper trail.
Yes, it arrived, but there's not a big paper trail about how it arrived.
I'm so skeptical of something like that.
The reason being, well, let me tell you, certainly you've seen pictures of the first transistor.
We know it was developed at Bell Labs.
We know there were a couple guys working on it.
But you know what the first transistor was.
It was essentially just, I mean, it was more along the lines of a diode, just a PN and a P junction, just on a big slab of silicon.
It really couldn't do anything.
Certainly, if we had A lot of it was.
and advanced technology at that time uh... wouldn't it have been something
a little more down the road uh... so a lot of it was a lot of it they had no idea and
uh... what he's saying that uh... he worked
with some of these guys are intended no-name or or with this all of
big conspiracy and everyone was no he was a he was just a middleman and his assignment was
to take something that looked interesting
and take it to american industry and trying to determine the function
and whether it could be duplicated or not It's a long story and I don't want to burden you with it.
He's highly qualified.
I'm not immediately debunking him, but it's my natural reaction to jump on that.
He was an officer in the military and held some very lofty positions, right?
Oh, absolutely.
I'd actually be interested to...
I actually gave him UFO Magazine so he could read about it, but he doesn't read about UFOs.
I understand.
It really is true.
People don't believe this about you, Bob.
They think you are the guru of ufology.
Oh, that's right.
You got the wrong guy.
And it just isn't true.
No.
Please.
You see, I remember the interview I did with you before.
I remembered very well.
Anyway, so here you are reading about all of this.
You get sort of an overview of it all, and probably by, what are you thinking by that?
I mean, is your mouth hanging open?
Extraterrestrial?
It is, to some extent, and another part of me is beginning to wonder whether or not this is true at all.
Or if this is some sort of psychological test.
You know, everything else was so way out, essentially.
Maybe this is, you know, another game that we're playing.
Maybe they're just trying to determine what reactions of people in science would be to extraterrestrial craft or the fact of extraterrestrial presence of any kind at all.
Right, and certainly all these thoughts had gone through my mind.
From there, the days have kind of blended together in my mind.
It's hard to separate what happened on each day after that, but I believe That the next time I went there was the time that I was actually let in through one of the hangar doors.
Now normally we drove alongside of the installation and came in the main entrance.
This one time we drove up and one of the hangar doors was open.
In the hangar doors, as plain as day, Or in the hangar door, as plain as day, was the craft that I had later labeled the sport model.
A very sleek looking, very stereotypical flying saucer.
My immediate reaction was, this is the new generation fighter that we're working on.
For whatever reason, it's saucer shaped.
But immediately in my mind, I said, this explains All the UFO sightings throughout history is just in the development of this thing.
Here it is.
Here it is.
It makes perfect sense.
I've got a model five feet away from me here, a tester model, which I believe the Tester Corporation built based on your description.
Right.
It looked exactly like that.
Is that what we're talking about?
The sport model you call the sport model?
Yeah, very sleek, sporty looking.
Yeah, that's it exactly.
I'll be damned.
All right.
So you drove by this thing.
We actually stopped in front.
I was led out of the bus.
The security guard first, then Dennis and myself.
Dennis walked on ahead of me and the security guard told me to keep my eyes forward and just follow Dennis into the back.
And at the back of the hangar, there was a door that led in to a hallway in the office area.
I walked right by the craft.
The door was off the craft, or hatch, whatever you want to call it.
Right alongside of it was an American flag adhered to it.
A little sticker.
Really?
Now, all I did was cement it in my mind.
Obviously, this is it.
I slid my hand along the side of the craft.
Which the guard didn't appreciate and I was told, again, keep my hands at my side.
What did it feel like?
I say it felt like metal and the reason I say that is because it was cool to the touch.
It could have been an advanced ceramic or something, absolutely, but to me it felt and it appeared like metal.
We continued in and this is where I first met Um, the person that I'd be working with, Barry Castillo or Castile, however you pronounce that.
Um, and this is when I first saw the initial components of the craft that had been taken out.
So they had begun to gut this thing then?
Not this particular one.
There was more than one there.
How many?
There were actually nine craft, not all like this, but From what they told me, from what I saw, there were nine craft.
Don't ask me where they came from or how we got them or anything.
I have no idea.
But the craft were in really different states.
Some were completely dismantled.
Some looked as if they would be operational.
They hadn't been touched at all.
But apparently, from what I understand, All the crafts had the exact same reactor and propulsion system in them.
Did any of the craft look as though they had been in a collision or crash?
No.
The only one that had damage to it looked intentional.
It was a craft that had a... It's kind of hard to describe.
The area around the craft, the lip, if you will, was very broad and flat and thin, and it looked as if it had been stood up and a projectile fired through it.
The hole from the distance that I saw looked around four inches, but it could have been any size.
It looked as if the metal was bent outward, and that could have been dropped from the sky.
Someone could have fired a A projectile through it?
Who knows?
That alone is very interesting.
In other words, we're not dealing with Superman's cape here.
Holes could be blown through it.
Right.
Of course, on the other hand, it's an extremely unscientific test.
You take something as prized as that, you don't stand it up and fire a cannon at the thing or a howitzer.
You certainly take a small quantity off and do your analysis of that piece.
But for whatever reason, That was the only one that looked like it sustained any damage.
Some of the other craft were dismantled to some point, but certainly not wrecked.
The only craft that I was permitted to work on, to touch, to have anything to do with, was the craft that I term the sport model.
That's the one that you have a model of there.
Well, as you turn around, as you walk in on all of this though, Bob... No, I did not see this all at one time.
I saw this one craft, and the hangar doors are all next to each other, and only at one time, way down the road, were all the bay doors open at one time, and I got a glance to see in what was the other hangar doors, but for the most part, at this point, all I knew was that there was this one craft, and now in my mind, I'm convinced that this is just a U.S.
manufactured, extremely secret, Fighter, reconnaissance craft, who knows what.
And the little American flag did that for you?
Oh, without question, that was it.
It's a done deal.
So, what do you say?
You look at it and say, turn around to your companion, we'll call him, and say, wow, or my god, or where'd these come from?
No, nothing.
All I did was have a smile on my face as I remember, walked into the back door, and then the introductions began.
The only other person I really interfaced with was Rene, I don't remember his last name, but and I actually can't remember what in the world Rene did, but for the most part, Barry and I worked closely together.
Now, this is also the first time that my supervisor left me alone with Barry.
And, you know, this is where the learning process essentially began.
This is where my view of everything changed.
Did they tell you at that point what your specific job was?
In other words, there it is, and it's sort of like, okay, what am I supposed to do?
Well, that's where we begin now.
This is exactly what this meeting with Barry entails, is the description of precisely what I'm supposed to be working on, what my function in life is now at this place.
This is where I find out that we are essentially, well, number one, that the briefings I was reading are correct.
In other words, they are extraterrestrial?
Right.
These craft are not extraterrestrial.
The scope, the aim of our project is now to back-engineer these craft, or this one particular craft, with the intention of duplicating it, or duplicating the subsystems within it, using earthly materials.
So that was the project.
Now this hit me quite hard at that time.
And needless to say, this night I didn't get any sleep.
It was fairly exciting before that.
And certainly Barry just telling me this wasn't enough.
This is when we also had some demonstrations on what we had found out.
I know you don't follow all this, but I have to ask, have you seen Independence Day?
Oh, absolutely.
you that we've seen you know i was all
very fantastic and uh... i'm a is absolutely mind-boggling well i know you
don't fall all this but i have to ask and if you see the independence
day oh absolutely okay good at least you've done that
you remember when they brought everybody into uh...
area fifty one and they opened the big door and you want to say well they have
a invited me to the uh... premiere of that Oh, they did?
Yeah.
In fact, they made me stand up for some reason.
They made you?
Yeah, they introduced me.
I see.
But, in fact, someone called... I don't remember the people involved there, but when they were talking about The movie, the making of the movie, so on and so forth, the lab technician there, I don't remember his name in the movie, but who wore the white lab coat, they called him the Bob Lazar guy.
Dean Devlin was the writer.
I don't remember the other people that were there, but I thought that was pretty funny.
But as they said, they had taken For the movie, they had taken much of the UFO lore stories and everything that had been circulating around for years and threw together the script in a short time and produced it.
It looked nothing like that, by the way, but the idea was the same.
Right, same idea.
Alright, well, we're at an interesting juncture here and the real fun is about to begin.
Were you told that you were going to be working on one specific area of back engineering, or were you going... Only.
Only?
Power and propulsion system and everything else was essentially off limits.
Meaning you couldn't even touch it?
No, I couldn't touch it.
However, I did get to go on the craft one time, and this was for the express purpose of only seeing the placement of the reactor And how the gravity amplifiers worked, how the emitters moved freely underneath on the primary level, and just how all the subcomponents fit together.
All right.
That's a good place to hold it.
We're at the top of the hour.
Take a good few moments to relax, and we'll be right back.
And we will kind of recap at the top of the hour.
And then you're going to hear about an extraterrestrial craft What it looked like, what the power and propulsion systems were, how they worked, and believe me, much more.
It's not Independence Day, but it's the same idea, except in this case, it's for real.
From the high deserts An area near Dreamland, this is Coast to Coast.
You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time, the night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26th,
1997.
This is a story about a man who was trying to find his way back to the sea. He was lost in the middle of nowhere, and
he was looking for a way to get back to the sea.
He was looking for a way to get back to the sea. He was looking for a way to get back to the sea.
He was looking for a way to get back to the sea.
What an unusual, rare opportunity.
One that may not come along for a while, incidentally.
My guests are Bob Lazar and Gene Hough.
Bob Lazar is the ex-government scientist who, back in 1989, came forward with the fact that he had been part of a team of scientists who back-engineered extraterrestrial disks, flying saucers, At a base known as S4, 15 miles south of the infamous Area 51 at Groom Lake, Nevada.
Along with him, Gene Huff, Bob's longtime friend and business partner, in fact, really all these years, who's a writer and co-producer of the Lazar tape, which we'll tell you about.
Gene is a real estate appraiser and screenwriter.
As a matter of fact, he has written the screenplay and has won the competition for that, as for the Bob Lazar story.
And in the first two hours of the program, we've moved through Bob Lazar's employment, early employment, in New Mexico, to his introduction to Edward Teller, to his employment, finally, and we've had a lot of details we've never heard before, at Area S4.
And we have just arrived at the point in the story where he has met up with what he calls the sport model
craft and I've got a studio cam here and I will endeavor over the
next thirty minutes to take a good picture
of the tester model which is said to be a faithful reproduction
and we'll confirm that uh... with Bob of what he saw. I've got one right here
by the way you can get one of those from Tester so all of that and a bit of a surprise coming up in a
moment now back to my guests Bob Lazar and Gene Huff and gentlemen
I have a surprise for you
Bob, you were in effect recruited, I think, by Edward Teller.
I have a friend who's listening to the show this morning as we speak, believe it or not, all the way down in Perth, Australia.
His name is Stan Dale, and he was also recruited by Edward Teller.
And he's got a question or two for you.
I'm going to see if we can bring him up.
All the way from Perth, Australia, there's a slight delay in the phone line transmission.
Stan, are you there?
Yeah, Art.
OK, very good.
Bob Lazar is on the line, and I know you followed the Lazar story.
And you might briefly, just very briefly, recap yours and ask a question.
All right, very briefly.
I was working in the computer business in Dallas in 19, oh, I think it was 70, 71.
And I, among other things, I was also doing some investigation for the FBI at the corporations where I was working as an undercover kind of plant.
During this time at this company where I was working, it was a large corporation.
It was called Baltech Optical at the time.
It had 100 sub-corporations.
And a lot of them operated in Nevada.
And during the time I was there, I was approached by one of the senior executives of this company to go meet with a Dr. James R. Maxfield at the Radiation Research Clinic over a couple miles from where we have the office in Dallas.
And I didn't go for about a month.
And then I met this same executive at a morning coffee in the executive tea room.
And he said to me, I hadn't been to see his friend Maxfield, and the reason he'd asked me to go is because I had talked to him about some work that I've been doing in my time off, my private time at home, in my own laboratory, working with two things.
One was a thermionic electrical converter, and the other was a rather novel method, I thought, of propelling a flying aircraft, which was circular-shaped and, you know, flying saucer, you'd call them today.
In the course of having told this guy just over coffee, well, he kind of got reasonably interested in it and told me I ought to go talk to a friend of his.
And didn't do it, so 30 days passed, and he says to me, look, you haven't been to see Jim Maxfield yet.
Please go this afternoon.
I've booked you an appointment at 3.
So I go over to this place, and it's not like a place that sees people very often.
It was open.
The door was kind of ajar, but there was no cars in front of it and daylight.
I walked in, the lights were off down the hallway, and I walked down the hallway, and it was kind of dark, and suddenly this nurse, well, I guess a receptionist type lady appears out of nowhere from the side and says, yes, can I help you?
I said, oh, gee, I didn't know anybody was here.
Look, I think I've got the right building.
I'm looking for this Dr. James R. Maxfield.
And she said, oh, yes, Dr. Maxfield is here.
He'll be out in just a second.
He's down in the lab.
And so, sure enough, within a minute or so, this big, tall dude comes out in a white medical coat.
I've been expecting you.
Come on into my office.
At this time is when I first got introduced to this clandestine organization in the United States that was headed by Dr. Edward Teller and who Maxfield worked with, with Teller.
This organization had been working since the mid-50s on something like 50-some-odd projects.
All related directly to flying saucer technology, if you wish to put it down to that level.
I was just the latecomer on the scene.
They showed me about their base down at the South Pole and the ice cap.
I had access by submarine or something similar.
And they explained to me they knew what I was doing.
They even knew what I was thinking, because they asked me about my physics.
And I said, well, look.
Thinking I was talking to some of the greatest physicists in the world, which I was.
I didn't have my degree in that area, and I said, well, look guys, I've been working on a way to unify gravitational, electromagnetic, and magnetic effects.
And he said, spare me all that.
He said, you're working on anti-gravity.
Let's get to that.
It doesn't matter how you're doing it.
And that's when he started telling me that I need to finish my research with them down in Australia instead of America.
That's why I'm here today, because those guys packed me up and sent me down here.
We parted ways in 1972 or three, I think it was.
I was only with him for about a year.
And I got rather disenchanted with all the technology they were holding back from the people.
I still was young enough to think that we could save the world by giving technology to countries that needed food and grain and water and stuff shipped back and forth rather rapidly.
But anyway, because of that, we parted ways in a real huff, and I kind of hid in the bush for a while because I really kind of thought it would be better if I was buried.
And then after coming out of that, I wrote the book The Cause of Conspiracy to kind of be insurance and told a lot of what I had gone through in there and left the rest for, I'll tell the rest if you get short with me.
So, now that's my side, Bob.
Did you ever run into a big story?
Did you ever run into Jim Maxwell at all on your side of it?
No, I haven't.
Actually, I've got a thousand questions now, but one of the prominent ones on my mind here is what was Teller's function?
Well, he seemed to be in charge or overseer of all the projects at the highest level.
That's all that Teller was told.
See, this is something I've always wondered about the project down where I worked.
You know, no one really ever spoke of him, but I got just a gut feeling that he was silently in charge of everything.
What you're saying is also very interesting because a lot of what you're talking about seems to mimic some of the things we were working on.
In fact, Bob, if I remember right, when Teller called you, when you originally got the call from him to Contact the gentleman at EG&G.
Teller said that he was no longer active, but worked in a chief consultant capacity.
That's right.
Something happened after I left because, in fact, I'll tell you, I had minders appointed down here who really run this country and run the prime ministers.
My minders operated out of a group called the Melbourne Club, and they're, you know, the old kind of British Raj, you know, cigars and pork, white-haired guys.
Anyway, they brought me into their halls of power, and I had lunch a few times with the kingpins there, and my mentor was Sir John Williams and Henry Somerset.
Sir Henry Somerset.
Anyway, we were sitting there one day at lunch, and they were talking amongst themselves about someone moving in on them, or they were like an undeclared war status, and that they were losing.
And they never mentioned aliens or any of that kind of stuff, so don't jump the gun, but You know, I heard them say, well, yeah, Henry, it looks like we're going to lose this.
You know, they're just moving in.
And I waited and nothing else was said.
And I said, well, excuse me, gentlemen.
I said, by they, you know, I think I'd be clever.
I said, do you mean the European Economic Community?
Because we've been talking, you know, large corporate or money deals in the country.
And they both look at me like I'd, you know, done a root at the table or something and said, oh, maybe we'll do some fishing up the farm this weekend, Henry.
Yes, John.
And, you know, immediately I knew that I Ask the question that I should have known the answer to already and didn't.
Anyway, they indicated at that point that they were being taken over.
Well, I got away from the organization and wrote a book and all that.
Years passed, and about seven years ago, I have a friend in Scottsdale, Arizona named Conrad Murphy.
And Conrad goes to a lot of places.
He races boats and cars, and he's a fairly active fellow in business.
Anyway, Conor is invited to give the morning devotional at some big business breakfast, like the Arizona 500 Club or something like that.
And so he rang me and said, look, guess who I'm going to give the breakfast benediction right next to?
Who's sitting right next to me next week is Edward Teller.
And I said, wow, can you get to Dr. Teller and take a message?
I want to talk to him.
He said, not a problem.
So I waited and waited and the week passed and Conrad rang me back and he says, Wow.
He says, Well, I sat next to him and he said, you know, it was all kind of, you know, normal conversation.
Give the benediction, eat a bit.
And he says, after he had a couple bites, I said to him, Look, um, what do you know about this fellow named Stan Dayo?
You know, down in Australia working on anti-gravity and, you know, flying saucers.
And he said, Conrad looked at him very blankly and said, I don't know the fellow.
He says, Oh, That's odd and he reaches in his coat and pulls out a copy of my book with my photo on it and turns it up in front of Ed Teller and he said the blood drained out of his face and he looked away and a general over on the side who was in uniform came over and took Teller and said, Dr. Teller's got another meeting and took him away.
So I wondered at that point whether Teller was in charge of anything anymore.
You see what I'm saying?
I do.
That's very interesting.
I've never been able to get back to the team.
You know, I think they did lose.
Whatever was trying to take them over did.
And so anyway, after all of that, Stan had to sort of lay low for a while, and he just sort of ended up staying in Australia.
Well, Art, I had to give up my U.S.
citizenship to keep from being extradited at the time that they were trying to get to the bottom of this.
I'd love to be back in the states.
Were they trying to prosecute you for anything?
I mean, what was... Well, I wasn't sure how that was going to go.
Sorry, sorry, say again?
See, that's a delay we have.
Oh, I'm sorry, my fault.
No, just go on.
What was the reason?
What were you... Were they trying to prosecute you for... There were a number of things, Bob.
One of them was that...
There were a number of things.
Can I just put the dog on?
She wants to say something here.
Just a second.
I don't know.
As I said to you, I was doing some undercover work for the FBI and they deny, of course, that there were 700 of us doing it.
It's a clear dog from Australia.
Believe me, it's coming through very clearly.
These are the most popular dogs on the planet.
They've seen a bird out here and they're trying to eat it.
The question is, Stan, were they trying to prosecute you, or were there threats on your life?
How serious was it?
Both.
When I went underground, they had really determined they were going to put me underground permanently in Melbourne.
Well, we knew that much.
As a result, I ran, and for a little over a year, I traveled in the Australian bush, let the hair grow out, and wore the sunglasses, and traveled with the hippies, and whatever, just disappeared.
Finally, I got hungry and had to come back in.
When I did, I came in under an assumed name and worked for a while, but eventually they caught up with me because I applied for work in companies and had to show them my passport.
Can I interrupt you for a second?
What was the threat that you presented to them?
Were they afraid of the information that you had?
Yes.
That was their main concern, that you were running around with information that you could possibly divulge to someone else?
Well, first of all, I would be able to identify them.
I mean, I could identify, you know, like, by name, the people who are head of it in the Aeronautical Research Center at Fishman's Bend in Melbourne, and in the Australian Club, who, of course, control the Prime Ministers of this country.
And there was a number of things that I was privy to that would be rather embarrassing.
But in their defense, let me say this.
Now that I've had time to think about it, if I'd have been in their position and They were holding the secrets they were, and were under the pressures they were, I would probably have ordered my execution as well.
It's bigger than one person's life.
I'm sure you would appreciate this, Bob.
What we're talking about is a cover-up of incredible proportions.
Were you able to continue your research, or did they have all the requisite hardware?
Of course they did.
I did do some.
I did play around a bit with what I could do.
You know, I couldn't.
I didn't have access to high-temperature coating.
I couldn't put my barium titanate or anything else on the capacitive surfaces.
But that video you did with the little ship that had the thermionic converter on it, I don't know why you had to have an element, whatever it was, 1115, because we were quite aware that you could convert thermal energy at around 37 gigahertz on the sampling frequency.
You could take random heat and convert it into flowing electric energy.
Well, that makes it a thermionic generator, I mean, yeah.
That's it, that's it.
Yeah, but all that does is that, yeah, that's just, uh, that's just providing electrical power.
That's correct, that's correct.
We didn't need 115 to do that, though.
Well, yeah, no one does.
I mean, that's how, uh, yeah, I mean, space, uh, space thermionic generators just use, uh, plutonium to warm, uh, essentially, uh, A thermocouple using the see-back effect or whatever to produce electrical energy.
However, the basis of the craft that I worked on, the electrical energy was merely a by-product.
That was not how the entire craft operated.
That's where the 115 came in.
Now, the other thing I noticed here is you were using gravity wave A and gravity wave B focus fields.
In the stuff we were working on, the field we would generate was in a toroidal field.
That's exactly how this was generated.
It was essentially in a torrid around the craft.
Some of the animators gave me some fantastic graphics that I haven't really been able to post anywhere but I did want to put them up on the web somewhere because there are a lot of people that are interested in The actual propagation of the gravity field and I was just about to give those to the guys that handle our webpage and it might be worth having a look at that.
What's the website?
Look, just go to my site and you'll be able to jump right over.
Stan, we're out of time, this is a half hour, but from what I've heard, I think that you two should be communicating.
I know.
Well, I never have been able to reach Bob.
He kind of did like I did.
Went to ground, I think.
Yeah.
Well, what I'll do is I'll provide Bob with your number in Perth.
OK.
With your permission.
Is that all right?
Fine.
Excellent.
All right.
Email might work well, too, right?
Yes, it does work well.
And we can make those arrangements as well.
So.
Well, that would be fine.
Yeah.
I'd like to talk to him.
All right, Stan.
Thank you very much.
And we'll put you two in contact.
All right?
All right, good night from America, and we'll be right back with Bob Lazar and Gene Hough.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight an encore presentation of Costa Costean from September 26, 1997.
Welcome to Costa Coste.
This is one of the wildest, most believable stories you've ever heard.
I wonder if everybody out there understands the significance of what they're hearing.
It's sort of coming out in a matter-of-fact way, but do you understand the significance of what you're hearing?
Take Stan Dale, for example.
Very much a religious person, a very devout Christian, and very much a truth teller.
And now Bob Lazar and the same matter-of-fact kind of delivery.
But consider, please, consider exactly what you're really hearing this morning.
The implications of what you're hearing.
what it means.
Gene and Bob, you're both back on the air.
It's kind of interesting when you listen to people like Stan and you listen to people like Bob, as far as we've gone with the story, it's all laid out in such a calm, matter-of-fact way that I think a lot of the public has a tendency to lose sight of the implications of what they're hearing.
But you've told the story so many times, Bob, that I guess it comes out that way, sort of in a matter-of-fact way, huh?
Yeah, it pretty much does.
Let us return to your story.
Now you've had a chance to get in the craft, and what are you doing?
What are you working on?
What are you seeing?
Well, if I remember, I have just met with Barry, and we're now going over things.
Let's see.
Well, this is, as I said, when I first realized exactly what was going on.
What the implications were and precisely what I'd be doing.
In the room, this is a lab off the main hallway and in the room is one of the reactors from one of the crafts and one of the amplifiers from one of the crafts also.
How big are these?
Um, the reactor, I would imagine, is about, oh, two feet, somewhere between 18 inches, two feet, somewhere in that general area.
Not really big then?
No, not large at all.
Odd looking thing.
Has a bottom plate and then half of a sphere on top of it.
The amplifier itself, Um, is about in about two feet in diameter, probably four feet long, cylindrical shaped, uh, with something that would look like plates on the outside of it, black in color.
Um, you know, these are very unusual and essentially hollow, uh, very, very unusual looking devices.
Um, This isn't actually the amplifier that I always catch myself calling it, that it's the emitter.
It's the device that is moved on a pivot, and it's where the gravity wave actually emanates from.
Quite similar to a horn on a microwave system.
As it turns out, gravity waves behave a lot more like microwaves.
At least the gravity waves that are being produced by this system do.
So you have wave guides and things of that sort that you'd see in a microwave system.
Those are the main components of the craft that were in the lab at that time.
What does that suggest or tell us about the nature of gravity?
Well actually you have to look and see What we really know about gravity, and you know, we really, as it turns out, don't know anything about gravity.
As people have said, we can certainly measure its forces, or measure its effect on things, but really, to this date, there is no, and a lot of people don't know this, that there is truly no conclusive evidence At the present time that gravitational waves have ever been detected in the laboratory.
Now, there have been several gravitational wave detectors built, and you can assume that they're detecting gravitational waves, but they can also be detecting many other energies or fluxes of energies from who knows where.
So it's something we can hardly measure.
Something we certainly know the existence of, but we know very, very little about it.
It's essentially a big hole, a black hole, if you will, in physics as we know it.
Actually, the physicists that I've talked to are not altogether certain whether it's a push or a pull.
I think they're pretty sure it's a pull, but in physics today, physics itself is so fluid, yet so many people Either true physicists or armchair physicists or, you know, scientists, whoever you run into, really stand their ground on theories.
And yet, you know, most people tend to forget that these are just theories.
You know, they are not, you know, these are not facts.
This is a topic we know very, very little about.
And as I said some time ago, we, or the prominent theory was that There are gravitons, alleged subatomic particles that actually accounted for the force of gravity.
However, people that do bring that up really don't know much about that theory either because there was never an actual particle called a graviton.
The whole concept behind a graviton was that because I'm trying to think of how to put this in layman's terms.
They basically wanted to quantify gravity.
Maybe I shouldn't get into this yet.
Alright, you're looking at this thing.
When you see it, do you know what it is?
What are we talking about?
Well, the... I've already lost my... We're looking at the amplifier itself.
That's right, that's right.
Well, we'll save this technical discussion for later then.
No, basically I have no idea what I'm looking at.
I had to be led through everything.
The first demonstration that was presented to me was the actual operation of the reactor.
Now, this in itself is nothing short of a miracle.
We're dealing with something extremely small, maybe two foot square, maybe six inches high, just on outside dimensions.
And the power output of something like this is equivalent to a little nuclear power plant.
I mean, it's very impressive.
Also, the fact that it's not producing any waste heat, which is a violation of, well, the laws of thermodynamics.
You bet.
Bob, not to interrupt too much, but didn't you say that that reactor put out as much power as Hoover Dam?
I really, I remember I recorded all the Data I had about it, but off the top of my head now, I don't remember where that came from.
Anyway, people like me in the audience, so they can imagine the type of power we're talking about.
But it was a huge amount of power coming out of essentially a very small, small place.
What did the demonstration actually entail?
I mean, what did you see?
Well, the process was certainly not the electrical output of it, but it was showing me the gravitational field around the device.
Now the only reason I started going off on a tangent about gravity is because my whole point was that we don't have a machine.
There is nothing in existence that can make gravity.
I've seen a lot of people, just lay people, Telling me stories about how they're watching film on NASA and how the astronauts are training and they're in a little chamber and they're floating around in a weightless environment.
They don't realize it's an airplane doing a crash dive.
There is no machine that makes gravity.
I mean at all.
Nobody has that.
On Earth.
On Earth, right.
And here was a device that in operation was doing this.
To do that, Barry told me, well he I started the reactor when it was operating.
After a short time, he told me to put my hand or attempt to touch the sphere on the top
of the reactor.
As my hand got close to it, you can feel a force exactly like putting two light poles
of a magnet together.
It's kind of that soft push.
What you're experiencing now is more of an anti-gravity field, which is something entirely
Oh, no, that's extremely interesting, Bob, because as you may have seen, they've done experiments now in Sweden with incredible magnetic fields generated in a fairly conventional manner, and they have actually levitated Frogs, and plants, and all kinds of strange little things they've levitated with.
Is this documented?
Oh, absolutely.
I haven't heard anything about it.
With a magnetic field?
Oh, absolutely, yes.
Oh, certainly frogs are not magnetic.
I wonder what... Is this just a raw magnetic field?
An electromagnetic field.
An electromagnetic field, raw and gigantic, and they had a little chamber.
A big superconducting setup?
Yes, yep.
And they're levitating a frog?
You got it.
Is it written up anywhere?
Oh, absolutely.
I wonder how this managed to pass me by.
I'm glad to be delivering so much news to you tonight, Doug.
But obviously... Do you have any... Is it on your website?
Not to run off on another tangent here, but is there a name of any of the people or anything you can reference me to where I could look?
I'm sorry, this second I can't.
It was Finnish scientists.
It was carried on NBC, ABC, CBS, all the networks had it.
They had the photographs of the frogs floating there.
Boy, that's a tremendous discovery there.
Well, it is.
When you mentioned to me the tremendous gravitational field and the effect on your biological hand, it immediately flashed to that experiment in Finland.
So, there you are.
Anyway, so you... One more question, have they levitated anything non-conductive?
Something with no water in it, like just a... Well, I don't know, what a... Well, they levitated... Plastic or something like that?
No, I don't think so.
I think that it was plants, nuts, frogs, spiders... So it was all biological material?
Yes.
Yes, but you said yourself, you felt...
You felt the gravity with your hand.
Now, that's the biological effect.
Right.
Anyway, I don't want to stunt your story.
I just couldn't resist telling you that.
No, I'm glad you brought it up.
That's actually very, very interesting to me.
As time went on, we tossed a little golf ball at it, too, and it never did hit this sphere.
It merely ricocheted off the field, which, again, was an impressive display.
Indeed.
A golf ball is not in any way conductive.
It has no moisture.
It has no... Well, or minimal amounts.
So minimal.
Aside from the fluid-centered golf balls.
Oh, that's right.
They are fluid-centered, aren't they?
In either case, this was quite an impressive demonstration, just in the fact that this is producing a...
Gravitation, omnidirectional gravitational field around the unit.
It was later connected up to the emitter and the amplifier and where the gravitational beam out of the emitter can be focused.
This again was extremely impressive.
The gravitational wave or waves coming out of the emitter were focused Into a small point and produced a little black dot in the air, hovering in the air.
Really?
Now this is not to say it was a black hole, but what it was showing me was that it could bend light.
Now the only thing that can bend light is gravity.
That's right.
A lot of people say, well light can be bent on and so forth.
Usually that's diffracted or refracted.
But where you can only bend light is with gravitational waves.
So, to me, again, this is another impressive demonstration.
But it really was a kind of a black hole?
Well... In the sense that it was absorbing, at least in that particular... Well, a black hole, you know, by definition itself, would be the source of the gravitational distortion, as opposed to, you know, this light focusing on it.
The byproduct.
And, you know, you're also, you know, a black hole.
Quantum Singularity and blah, blah, blah.
Sure, but the theory is the same, isn't it?
In other words, you saw the blackness because of the intense focus of... Right, where light was an escape.
Yeah.
Essentially true.
Still, it was an extremely impressive demonstration to me.
Oh, yes.
So, basically, those were the... well, we did get to Essentially fool around with it a little more, but he was updating me with basically what had been learned in the time that they had the craft there.
He wasn't really specific on how long the craft was there.
It was very elusive on many of the questions that I presented to him.
That's something I want to touch on.
You must have had a million questions by then.
I did and he would answer them peripherally.
He wouldn't really get down to the meat of the question.
But at that point, Barry had a higher security clearance than you did, didn't he?
Yeah, that's probably true.
That may have been the reason.
Yeah, who knows if he was told to do that or that was his own decision or what.
Again, he was just basically filling me in with what they knew and what my job was going to be.
This was it.
This was finding out how this subsystem of the craft operated in the craft, operated outside of the craft.
Could this eventually be duplicated using another power source?
Could this power source be duplicated itself without using exotic materials?
So on and so forth.
Some time later, I got my only view inside the craft, which again was extremely exciting.
Yeah, no kidding.
Now, can you describe what you saw in that craft?
Yeah, I was let in again by... What's his name?
Not Barry, Dennis.
We walked up a small roll-away stairway that led into the craft.
It was very cramped getting in the doorway.
The hatch was removed.
I really didn't pay attention to see how it was fashioned to it or if there were hinges or anything.
A lot of people have asked me that.
You don't spend time looking at how a door was connected somewhere when there's a flying saucer in front of you.
In either case, I went inside.
Initially, you must bend over to get in.
There is very little headroom.
So, whoever originally flew in this was small.
Right.
Whatever flew in it was tiny.
And if you notice, Art, if you're looking at the model of the sport model there, out near the equator of the disk, I mean, it literally comes to a point and it graduates as you go towards the center.
So, obviously, the ceiling is very low near the edge.
And for the benefit of the audience, with As you walk into the craft, first of all, I should address a few questions that people constantly ask me.
One of them is certainly, well, how did you feel going into the craft?
Wasn't it the most exciting thing in your life?
And I know I've said this a thousand times before.
To many other people, but the feeling at that time was not of excitement.
It was a very ominous feeling.
Very much so.
Actually, I really can't describe it.
It's difficult to put into words, but it was a very ominous feeling, more like, are you sure we should be here?
Of course, after the fact.
You know, it was certainly exciting, but it was a very, very odd feeling because, and it was no pun intended, it was a very unearthly setting inside.
Alright, that's a perfect place to hook them and hang them up until we come back from the news.
So everybody relax, we'll be right back.
All right.
Bob Lazar and Gene Huff are my guests.
I'm Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time, the night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
Oh, it was beautiful, magical.
And all the birds in the trees, they'd be singing so happily.
Oh, joyfully.
Oh, playfully, watching me.
Then they sent me away to teach me how to be sensible, logical, responsible, practical.
And they show me...
🎵Music🎵 Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26th, 1997.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight an encore presentation of Costa Costa M, from September 26, 1997.
Well, good morning. This show is obviously going to be a five-hour program, and it's going to be a collector's item.
Believe me, a collector's item.
So... You may have time.
You can actually begin calling now.
As we go deeper and deeper and deeper into Mr. Lazar's experience at Area S4.
Sound of explosion.
Music.
Art Bell now turns it back to Bob Lazar.
Bob, you're right.
I'm sure you know all the questions that people would ask if I started picking up phone lines now.
So, what about being inside that craft?
What do people generally ask and how do you respond?
Well, first of all is the overall description inside.
Entering the craft is, like I said, certainly uncomfortable for an adult human being.
You realize that you're not in a place that was designed for humans.
Exactly.
And it certainly is different from anything that you're familiar with.
And what I mean to say about that is everything is basically one color.
Normally, any area you're surrounded in is always different textures, different colors, The inside of the craft is essentially all a dull pewter aluminum color, very metallic looking.
There are no sharp right angles anywhere and the description I've given before is basically the craft looks like it was just injection molded, essentially like the model was.
There are no seams anywhere.
Everything inside the craft Looks like it was fashioned out of wax, heated for a short time, and then cooled to where everything basically melted into what was next to it, what it was sitting on.
That's about the best description I can give as to how the inside looked.
Seamless.
Seamless and very unusual.
Again, no right angles anywhere.
The structure of the craft, the skin from the outside was smooth.
Inside, this is very difficult to describe, but if you can picture yourself inside a disc of a flying saucer shape, and you're inside looking at the walls surrounding you, there was an additional structure, kind of a secondary wall, It was kind of repetitive archways that looks like it was either for structural integrity or, as we later found out, something to do with the waveguide and the gravity amplifiers themselves.
But if you have the box there you're looking at, you notice what I'm saying is kind of difficult.
There's a little booklet that came in there that has a nice cutaway view of the craft.
It's very difficult to describe without drawing a picture or seeing something visual.
Well the lucky people on the internet can see what I'm holding up.
The others are going to have to make do with your word pictures or go out and get a copy of the tester model or how else might people see?
Is there something on your... well, again, it would be your website, so it's just people with computers, so we've got to formulate word pictures for people without... Yeah, I'm not really good at that, but that's basically what the... there are three levels to the craft.
When you enter, you enter into the main level, and that's basically what you see.
As far as what's on the main level, well, first of all, the dimension of the craft is about 52 feet in diameter, about 16 feet high.
That's just the overall measurement.
Now back on the inside of the craft, what you'll see in the center of the craft is the reactor itself.
Extending from the reactor up to the top of the craft is the waveguide.
It kind of looks like a little chimney, more or less.
Surrounding the reactor in the center of the craft are three seats.
These seats all face one direction.
Also near these three seats, Are the three gravity amplifiers themselves.
They look like consoles.
Just solid rectangular objects.
When I say consoles, I don't mean there's any buttons, lights, or anything of that sort.
And in fact, there were no buttons, lights, switches, or wiring in the entire craft.
Really?
Really.
That's also quite an impressive feat.
No levers, no buttons, no lights, no switches.
However, I did not get to go in one part of the craft, so I really can't say what was there.
But I do have a good idea as to what was.
Now this was all on the center level.
Immediately underneath, there's a small breakaway part of the floor as you walk in to the craft over to the left.
It's a collapsible hexagonal Very unique doorway.
People have asked me, have you ever seen anything in any of these crafts, any of the technology that could be used today?
Something simple.
And that's certainly one of them.
Aside from the high-tech gravitational propulsion system, so on and so forth, something very simple to understand and easy.
And anyone that's taken A six pack of beer or bottles or anything like that.
You notice that if you push on the sides of the, you take all the bottles out, you push on the sides of the box, it all collapses flat.
Yes.
And the floor itself was hexagonal in shape and made of little square hexagons like that of thin metal.
It's a little notch cut out.
So basically to operate it, You just stuck your hand in the notch and pushed and the entire thing collapsed flat and left a hole open.
However, since you're, when it's, uh, I'm getting tangled with my words here trying to, cause there's so many other things going through my mind.
Um, when it's extended and it's the, uh, opening is closed off.
It's, uh, it's a very strong structure.
Because you're standing on the top of hexagons, the metal is relatively thick.
You kind of have an idea of what I'm trying to present here?
I absolutely do.
Of course, I understand how it derives the strength, yes.
So yes, it's very easy to collapse one way, but that's one simple thing I thought would find uses somewhere, somehow.
Something that could be made right now.
In fact, I've fashioned one out of thin metal.
I have absolutely no use for it, but it's just one of those strange things.
I've never seen anything like it, and it's certainly something that could be, I don't know, used in some sort of architecture somewhere.
Now, the craft you were in had all of its... the generator, the amplifier... Right, that was all on the first level.
Everything was intact?
Absolutely.
All right.
Well, let me take that back.
One of the amplifiers was removed on this craft.
When you do collapse this little porthole, Uh, you can fit your body through at least the upper part of it and look underneath.
This is the lower level of the craft.
This is where the emitters that what I sometimes call the gravity amplifiers hang down.
These are three of the cylindrical shaped black objects, two foot in diameter, four feet long, that actually emit gravitational waves from them.
Like a microwave horn.
Right.
They are positioned directly underneath the larger rectangular gravity amplifiers on the first level and are in fact connected to them.
The actual physical connection between the emitters and the subflooring above it again is something very interesting.
It's a short piece of pipe, I'd say, oh, maybe 12 inches longer, maybe slightly 12 inches long, maybe a little longer than that.
But this mounting flexes in any direction.
But it's a solid piece of pipe.
It's something very, very unusual.
And we see the same thing being used On the waveguide to the reactor, from what we could see, by applying an electric charge to different parts of the structure, it would bend quite easily.
Really?
Yeah.
Again, something very difficult to describe without drawing it exactly how this operated.
It was not made of in a telescopic form where you'd see something like a car antenna where it would collapse down on each section would collapse down onto one another.
It was a solid piece.
If you can imagine just a solid piece of pipe and applying electric charge to it and having the pipe bend but remain rigid after it had done so.
Anyway, this compromised the composed the focusing system for these three amplifiers.
They received signals from other parts of the craft.
The amplifiers would focus in on a certain point and you know this is basically how the amplifiers were aimed.
And the craft had, again it's kind of a lengthy explanation, but there were two different modes the craft we found would operate in.
One is called Omicron and one is called Delta.
The Omicron configuration was the standard operating mode of the craft and it's where it used one single amplifier to maintain its elevation in the sky.
One of the other amplifiers was rotated 90 degrees and essentially pointed straight out ahead of the craft.
So with one amplifier working, it essentially produced an anti-gravitational pillar to stand on.
With the amplifier that was rotated 90 degrees, instead of what we would normally think along the lines of propulsion, where a jet would essentially Exhaust material, hot gases out the back, where we would normally think along the lines of a propulsive force, what the craft did was essentially create a distortion in front of it.
A distortion, now?
A gravitational distortion.
Is that like sort of creating a well, in effect?
Exactly.
It would create a little distortion, a divot.
In time and space, if you want to call it that.
As well as a good analogy to where the craft would actually, this is kind of the low performance mode, if you want to give it a name, but where the craft would actually continuously slide downhill.
Yes.
A very awkward, strange mode of propulsion.
I mean, we have nothing that would even really relate to something like that.
But it's kind of backwards, if you see what I'm saying.
I do.
The other mode of propulsion... And before we go to that, you would imagine this mode of propulsion to be used in what configuration?
In other words, in an atmosphere, for example?
In an atmosphere, just maneuvering around small objects.
A source of gravity, probably a planet or moon, would you say?
I would imagine so, yeah.
I don't think it would be used in space.
By definition of this mode, it requires some force, some large amount of gravity to be acting on the craft.
So you would have to be near some sort of gravitational body.
All right.
Imagine as it was hovering around the ground, this is what would it be.
All right.
Makes sense.
And then there was another mode.
The other mode is the delta configuration, and this is how it normally travels through space and makes large jumps.
The craft flies with the belly Facing the direction you want to go, not as you would normally see the craft in a science fiction movie.
The gravity amplifiers are all brought up to power and they're focused on a single point.
This point now becomes an area of intense gravitational distortion.
Many, many times more than what we were talking about before.
And this is where the true warp drive comes into effect.
This is where you actually bend, you begin to distort space and time.
And instead of the craft actually flying, you're basically distorting the fabric of
space around the craft and move without actually traveling.
You're not moving in a linear fashion.
If I'm visualizing this correctly, it's kind of like the other mode, except far more intense, and you're constantly moving toward this warp, or with this warp.
I don't know which way to think about it.
Well, you actually become part of the other space.
It's a pretty wild concept, but something that really isn't unknown to us.
As I stated before, To most people it sounds like wild science fiction.
However, we know most of these things are possible.
We know, for example, as I stated in that tape, that we can see stars that are behind the Sun.
And the reason for that is the intense gravitational field of the Sun bends, not just light, but it bends space around the Sun and we can see some things behind it.
We know that Not just.
We know space, gravity, and time are all interrelated.
We know this for a fact.
We know that around areas of intense gravitational fields, time essentially slows down.
It's certainly been theorized that if one was to orbit a black hole, an area of tremendous gravitational distortion, a gravity well, for instance, that time would virtually stop.
Right.
So with all these things interacting, this is how You can travel a great distance with essentially no time elapsing.
First of all, you're bending space towards you.
By doing that, you're actually slowing time.
Not to say that this is a time machine, it's just a by-product.
Whenever you produce a gravitational field, whenever you're around an intense gravitational field, time slows.
Bob, did you discern all of this yourself after long examination?
Absolutely not.
Oh no, this was... Absolutely not.
Okay, they gave you this then.
Right.
Alright, and so... God, you've got... So then you're in the craft, then your job, I guess, is to go back to the gravity amplifier and the rest of it, that they've already got dissembled, and try and back-engineer the thing, or try to make it work with materials that we have here on Earth.
Is that correct?
Basically so.
Well, basically it's to start at the very beginning and look at the reactor and try and see how, from ground level, the device operates.
And this is where, apparently, I came in to the project.
All right.
And that is where we must pause.
Bottom of the hour.
Bob Lazar and Gene Hoffer, my guests.
Don't move.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26th, 1997.
The conversation She's coming in twelve thirty flight
The moonlit wings reflect the stars that guide me toward salvation
I stopped an old man along the way Hoping to find some old forgotten words or ancient melodies
He turned to me as if to say Hurry boy, it's waiting there for you
Gonna take the last to take me away The end.
The end.
.
Bye.
🎵Outro Music🎵 Tell you what we're going to try to do.
You're listening to Arc Bell Somewhere in Time, a night featuring a replay of Coast
to Coast AM from September 26th, 1997.
Tell you what we're going to try to do, we're going to try to get as much of the story out
as we can in this next half hour and then we will open up the lines.
Back now to Bob Lazar and Gene Hough.
Gene, basically the silent one right now, sort of helping out as he can.
Let's see, Bob, in the interest of time, because, you know, we could spend ten hours with this, perhaps not before you fell asleep, but... Well, we did make some coffee here.
I just started rambling and not saying anything, so hopefully this will help.
We are about three hours past my bedtime.
I see.
I appreciate it.
The nation appreciates it.
This really is an incredible story.
Now, briefly, you went to work, obviously, trying to back-engineer this.
Right.
How far did you get?
What did you learn?
Well, not very.
I need to digress for a moment here.
This is where I learned one of the reasons why I was hired.
Initially, our work started on the reactor.
That's the center point of everything.
And this is where we should really concentrate our efforts.
And apparently, that's what the people before me did too.
Apparently, there was an attempt to analyze the operation of one of these reactors.
And I got to read the notes that the gentleman before me had left.
There was a fatality, or actually, Three fatalities, if I remember, when they attempted to do this.
For some reason, they attempted to get into the reactor while it was in operation under load, and it was never very clear in their notes as to why anyone decided to do that.
However, again, in the interest of time, I'll cut this short, but they did attempt to do that.
The reactor did explode.
And the gentlemen were killed.
I was to replace one of these people.
Really?
Did anybody at any point suggest that you go in?
Oh, no.
No.
I think this is something... I think they reached a point of frustration, couldn't get anywhere, and went on from there.
Again, this didn't sound very sensible to me, but this was a story that was related to me, and just something I thought I'd pass along.
Also, let me add one other point that has really nothing to do with this, but we were also talking about static on the phone a few minutes ago.
Coincidentally, earlier today, now I have no cordless phones in the house, I was on the phone with Jean and my neighbor comes to the door and tells me that she can hear my conversation on the phone on her cordless phone.
I found that kind of hard to believe, so I picked up her cordless phone and listened and could hear everything fine on mine.
I mean, that's very unusual to say the least.
He called me, and I could literally hear his neighbor talking on a cordless phone in her house from my house.
What you need, then, is a sweep of your house.
Absolutely.
Well, I called Trent and Tell, and they should be here tomorrow, too, but, you know, what an odd coincidence.
That ten years ago, I certainly haven't had any problems like this for a long time, but it is pretty unusual.
Anyway, back to what we were talking about.
Sure.
Three who went down before you, three who died, so there you are.
What do you do?
Well, basically followed in their footsteps up to that point.
What we did find was that the reactor operated, at least the lower part of the reactor, the base plate, Operated like a little cyclotron.
And in fact, the first cyclotrons were almost exactly that size.
They accelerated particles to a high speed in a circular fashion along the space plate.
The particles were then diverted by electrical and magnetic fields up into a target area, which is what was inside the domed part of the reactor.
And this is now where we get into some exotic material.
One of the elements we identified in the reactor we then found.
Well, again, we had identified an element, an element, a super heavy element, one that doesn't naturally occur on Earth and certainly one that we haven't synthesized.
This element Was identified as 115.
Now, normally, the higher level elements, the ones that we have produced in accelerators, decay in a fairly short time.
In this case, what we're seeing was a stable element, one that was not undergoing any radioactive decay, which is very unusual.
However, again, this is something that Science and chemists have already theorized that there should be an island, essentially an island of stability, for elements around the 114, 115, 116 area.
However, we certainly haven't been able to produce anything that high up on the periodic chart.
But apparently, this is what we were observing.
How much of this element 115 was available?
200, well there were 223 grams in the craft, in the reactor.
223 grams.
I heard a story, I think it may have been from John Lear, that, and this jumps us way ahead, but that you somehow got some of element 115 out of that area.
Is that true?
I really don't want to comment on that.
All right, I didn't think so.
John didn't want to say much about it either.
But that was a rumor.
We'll let it stand as a rumor.
All right, so Element 115.
Something that we don't have yet.
I think we have progressed a little bit up the scale, but we're certainly not at 115.
Where are we now?
I believe the last isolated was 112, and most of the more recent More recent work has been done in Darmstadt, Germany.
In fact, I believe their plan to produce Element 116 is coming up next.
I think it was Californium and Calcium or something.
Do you remember that, Gene?
Yes.
I think they were going to fuse Curium with Calcium and they were going to end up with Element 116, which they then thought would decay in a chain of unknown nuclides and see where the island of stability actually settled.
But they are very close to attempting to You know, pierce that island of stability and seeing what's going to happen.
However, producing one or two atoms of it really isn't going to let them determine, you know, how the substance is going to react.
But at least they're there.
They're almost to the point now where they can begin to look at some of these exotic substances.
Right.
There are a lot of people waiting to see if they can perform an experiment or find this, you know, gravity aid that Bob alludes to.
But really, when you read, and I'm certainly a lay person, when you read on these, for instance, the website for the Lab for Heavy Ion Research in Darmstadt, Germany, you can see that they actually detect these atoms when they make them.
And getting an atom or two, it doesn't put them anywhere near having a quantity of it that you could hold in your hand and actually study for any macro-scale type effect.
You bet.
Bob, how long were you then at S4?
Doing your work.
It was from December of 88 to April of 89.
December of 88 to April of 89.
Okay.
What went wrong?
When did the whole thing begin to go sour and why?
Boy, there's a long story.
Yeah, the Reader's Digest version of this, which is typically longer than the entire story itself.
Do you want me to tell it?
If you've got a shorter version than I do, go ahead.
How about this?
At what stage of work were you when it began to go bad?
Actually, very early.
Well, go ahead, Gene, give it a try.
Well, you know, Bob had been on an on-call basis, and right when he got to the point where he told you about up to this point, they stopped calling him into work.
And this was very frustrating.
He wasn't a fun guy to be around.
And what had happened is when he, as he told you before, he had to sign documents allowing them to monitor his phone and fax and computer and anything that came into his house over a phone line.
And to make a long, sad story short, Bob's wife was having an affair, and they found out, and when they gave him his security clearance, they deemed him to be financially stable, emotionally stable, and just generally stable, and so now they knew that he was going to be having some emotional problems, and they stopped calling him.
Ultimately, they heard his wife admit that she had had an affair to her mother over the phone, and she ultimately told Bob And they called him in and he acted as a security clearance saying that he would be deemed to be a sure candidate for emotional instability and that he could reapply again in six to nine months.
I have never heard any of this before.
You've never heard this?
No.
Yeah, that's the reason that he lost his clearance.
It had nothing to do with him.
All right.
Well, you had signed all these papers, Bob.
What motivated you to go public?
I mean, that's weird in itself.
I mean, why did you go public?
Surely, you had to worry about your life, you had to worry about your career, and I don't know whether everybody knows, but you were virtually, the modern term is, erased.
Your educational records were erased.
A lot of the work you did in New Mexico was erased, save for one little mistake.
I think your name was, and still is, recorded in a phone book, isn't it?
For the most part, everything was.
Where was that?
A phone book where?
That was an old phone book in Los Alamos.
However, certainly they couldn't erase, as I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, the newspaper article at that time clearly stated on the front page of the local Los Alamos newspaper that I was a physicist working Los Alamos left.
So, you know, they certainly couldn't go back and make that disappear.
They made a lot disappear, didn't they?
However, you know, they did lie to begin with.
As you know, George Knapp, for your listeners, at that point in time was a news anchor for the CBS affiliate here in Las Vegas.
Yes, and he had extensive correspondence with Los Alamos as well as Kirk Meyer, which was One of the subcontractors that Bob worked for, and they all denied.
Kirk Meyer did say he was issued a Z number, which was a number required to be an employee and to get a paycheck.
But none of them had said that they retained records that far back.
And at this point in time, it was only, you know, five or six years earlier.
It wasn't, you know, ten years like it is now.
And that they didn't retain any records at all.
And George gave them numerous chances.
He said, are you sure?
You have no record of Bob Lazar.
He has Kirk Meyer.
Are you sure you have no record of Bob Lazar?
They denied, denied, denied, and then that's when Bob came up with the Los Alamos phone book with his name and station number in there, and then also he had a copy of the Los Alamos newspaper from 1982.
And how did they react to that?
Well, we're also talking about two people.
When I was initially hired on, I was hired on via a headhunter, essentially, for Los Alamos.
Sure.
Like I said, the initial time you work for anyone in a secure job, you have that time before your clearance goes through, and that's when I worked for Kirkmeier, and then later became hired on directly at Los Alamos.
However, both people either quote-unquote lost their records or just flatly denied the existence Of me even working there.
Well, what pushed you to go public?
What pushed me to go public, essentially, was fear.
Fear of what?
Fear of death?
Fear of prosecution?
Fear of persecution?
Well, just in general, I imagine you can add them all together, and that was essentially what I was feeling at the time.
You know, at that time, I had nothing other than What I had said to anybody, for the most part, if I suddenly disappeared off the face of the earth, nobody would have noticed.
Well, not only would nobody would have noticed, I certainly have friends and family that would have noticed, but no one would have known exactly what happened.
People disappear all the time.
Right.
Well, especially in Las Vegas.
So I at least wanted to get what was going on out in the open.
I believe it worked very well.
It was essentially a push back against all the force that was leaning on me.
I thought if I just went on in a subdued fashion on television and maybe just said a little bit and just kind of gave a little shove back, they would lay off.
Perhaps it was a big gamble, but it worked exactly the way I wanted it to.
Also, at this point when he was trying to show those around him what was going on is when he took people like me and his wife and John Lear out to the BLM land outside of Area 51 and we actually saw one of the discs tested in the sky.
Now Bob did this after he told us the story, after he was in trouble and in fear for his life, he told those around him the story and obviously we were a little apprehensive When a friend said, you know, we thought he was just working in, you know, some project for the government.
None of us really cared what he was doing.
And, you know, so he wanted to prove that, not that we thought he was lying, but it's still an outrageous story to tell your wife and friends and say, oh, by the way, I'm working on flying saucers.
Sure, and John has told me the story of the trip up to Area 51, and there is video to support your claim as well.
Right, right.
Plenty of video.
When, uh, the screenplay that you are now developing that is going to tell this whole story, Gene, uh, when will this be manifested into something that we can go out and watch at the movies?
Well, you know, I don't think Steven Spielberg could tell you that, but the fact is the first movie deal, literally the president of the studio came to me, Bob, and said, I'm going to make this movie.
Do you want to help or not?
And five years later, that movie's still not on the screen.
I would not be so bold as to give a date, but these people do seem serious, and if they could wave a magic wand, they'd like to have it on the screen in the summer or fall of 1998, but I mean, who knows?
Well, the atmosphere for it now, the way the genre has been going, has got to be just right.
Well, they say that if a mediocre movie like Men in Black, and we all had hoped Men in Black would be great, but it was kind of mediocre, It did 230 million just here in the United States, so I would say that's more than encouraging.
Bob, are you going to act at all in the movie?
Actually, I don't want them to make the movie.
You don't?
No.
Really?
Why not?
You really haven't.
He's afraid they'll make it outrageous and won't stick to the storyline.
He's probably right, by the way.
They will, you know.
Well, you have to.
When you sign a contract for a movie deal, you have to sign, you know, you have to sign away every right.
I mean, they could turn it into anything they want.
And so Bob has stayed, kept it close to the vest and restricts what they can portray.
They can't portray any live aliens.
Oh, I don't know.
By the time it's over, you'll have little guys going, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck Well, it sure has been a pleasure doing this, and we sure did get a lot of good information out.
And I want to thank you both, and I'm sure you both want to go to bed.
We do.
We got that right.
All right.
Have a nice vacation, all right?
Thank you.
Good night to both of you.
Okay, thanks.
All right, that's Bob Lazar and Gene Huff, and that's one rare interview.
One rare interview.
So if you want a copy of it, it's bound to be a collector's item.
And if you can't get through now, because it's going to be jammed, keep trying all weekend long.
Well, I'm off to Egypt and Rome and Greece and all that sort of thing, but not until after Dreamland on Sunday.
See you then.
Good night, America.
▲
Export Selection