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Sept. 26, 1997 - Art Bell

02:41:58

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Bob Lazar - UFOs and Area 51

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41:47

bob lazar

01:23:18

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Welcome to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert at the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be across all these many prolific time zones, stretching from the Hawaiian and Teaching Island chains in the west, eastward to the Caribbean, and the U.S. Virgin Islands and much more of the Caribbean, south into South America, north all the way to the Pole, and worldwide on the internet.
		This is post-post a.m.
		Good morning.
		You are about to experience history in the making this morning in more ways than one.
		Coming up in a few moments, Bob Lazar and Gene Hunt.
		Bob Lazar, I'll tell you all about, as well as Gene, in a moment in detail, but suffice to say, uh, Bob is probably one of the best known people in all of ufology and has not done many interviews over the years, has kind of shunned them over the years.
		I interviewed him many years ago, four or five, in fact.
		So many that he doesn't even remember.
		That was back when our present just about 400 radio stations were instead one.
		So I can assure you you have quite a few coming up this morning.
		Now, I would like to welcome KNST.
		That's KNSTAM in Tucson, Arizona.
		Boy, are we ever glad to be on board full-time now in Tucson, 790 in Tucson.
		And such will be the case.
		They'll also carry Dreamland on Sunday.
		Now, one other little item.
		This is going to be the weekend to get filthy rich on the rogue market.
		The rogue market.
		What is that?
		Well, it is a strange kind of place and a lot of fun.
		It's more fun than you've had in a long time.
		And this weekend is going to be the capper.
		This weekend, my stock price is going to go over $12,000.
		You watch and see.
		And if you get in early and you are part of all this early, you will make many rogue dollars.
		You will then be able to convert those rogue dollars into rogue prizes.
unidentified		Coffee mugs, that sort of thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just like the real stock market.
		Except that it's not real money.
		It really is a lot of fun, folks.
		Anyway, coming up in a moment, Bob Lazar and Gene Huff.
unidentified		The End One more quick item, and then I think we're underway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this comes from the Associated Press.
		Are you ready?
		An unidentified wingless object traveling at high speed passed dangerously close to a Swiss air jetliner, a 747, a Boeing 747, flying between Philadelphia and Boston, according to the airline, on Friday.
		The pilot and co-pilot gave U.S. investigators different descriptions of the object that passed about, get this folks, 50 yards from the Boeing 747 after it had taken off from Philadelphia on August 9th.
		The pilot told the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board that the object was long and wingless.
		Co-pilot said it was more spherical.
		The incident took place at 23,000 feet.
		The plane's final destination was Zurich, Switzerland.
		That is from the Associated Press.
		So, it looks like a 747 just had a close encounter with something.
		All right, here we go.
		Bob Lazar is the ex-government scientist who in 1989 came forward with the fact that he had been part of a team of scientists who back-engineered extraterrestrial disks, flying saucers, in other words, at a base known as S4, some 15 miles south of the infamous Area 51 at Groom Lake.
		Bob's story is the main reason behind the state of Nevada changing the name of Nevada State Highway 375, the Highway to Area 51 or S4, to its new name, the Extra Terrestrial Highway, indeed.
		Bob currently runs a company that manufactures and repairs alpha radiation detectors.
		He also creates CGI computer-generated graphics and simulations for technical and legal demonstration videos, for which he uses his mainframe supercomputer, which, by the way, is the second fastest computer in the state of Nevada, second only to the one at Nellis Air Force Base.
		Bob also has a small photo processing lab in his home.
		In his spare time, Bob does pyrotechnical and rocket research and throws Desert Blast, his annual fireworks blowout, at the Nevada Desert.
		And if memory serves, he also fools around with alternative fuels for cars.
		He comes this morning with Gene Huff, Bob's longtime friend and business partner, who is the writer and co-producer of the Lazar tape.
		Gene is a real estate appraiser and screenwriter.
		His screenplay S4, the Bob Lazar Story, has recently been optioned and was chosen over three other screenplays on the Lazar story, written by writers Jim Cresson, I guess that's right, Cresson or Cresson, who wrote The Morning After with Jeff Bridges and Jane Fonda,
		Roy Carlson, who wrote China Moon with Ed Harris and Madeleine Stowe, and David Rabbé, I guess it would be, Rabé, Rabbé, who wrote Casualties of War with Sean Penn and Michael J. Fox, and co-wrote The Firm with Tom Cruise and Gene Hackman.
		So, this is quite a coup, obviously, for an entry-level screenwriter.
		But then again, Gene has had the inside truck.
		Good morning, Bob.
		Are you there?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I'm here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Gene, are you there?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to you both.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bob, is it really true?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It had to have been four, maybe five years ago that I interviewed you in concert with John Lear.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You know, I honestly don't remember that.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		My friends tell me I have about the worst memory that can be had, but from what I recall, years ago I remember John Lear apparently booking me on your show and never telling me about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember that.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But I don't really remember ever doing the show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, there was a time, maybe even a couple of years before that, when we had you on for a short while.
unidentified		Or I think he called in.
		That was it.
		That was he called in when Lear was on the show or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't even remember that, but I'll take everyone's word for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, in fact, we now have such a gigantic audience out there that hardly anybody knows who you are, Bob, except for, of course, you know, ufologists and so forth, who would be very familiar with your story.
		So the great majority of the audience, 99%, have no idea who Bob Lazar is.
		Now, I guess that means we have to begin at the beginning.
		With regard to how you...
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Or was at the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was at the time, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did you become involved with, or begin to get involved with, whatever it is out there at Area 51, or is specifically S4?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me try and give you the reader's digest version.
		Some years ago, I was working at Los Alamos National Labs in New Mexico.
		One particular day, I was going down to the lecture hall to hear Edward Teller speak, who, as most people know, is the father of the hydrogen bomb.
		I got down there a little early because I wanted to get in, assuming there was going to be a crowd of people, and actually, to my surprise, there was hardly anyone there.
		Coincidentally, that day, the local newspaper in town, The Monitor, had printed a front-page article on me.
		And right outside the lecture hall was Dr. Teller reading the front page of the paper.
		So I thought it was a perfect opportunity to introduce myself and just say hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It was just a casual meeting.
		And the only reason I bring it up is years later I had moved out of Los Alamos.
		After I quit working for the lab, I opened up my own business that did some contract work for the lab, and also started a one-hour Photoshop for my wife that she ran there.
		We later moved out of Los Alamos to Las Vegas.
		And again, sometime later, I decided I had missed working in the scientific community, so I decided to get back in and send out resumes.
		I sent them out really all over the place to the places where I'd essentially like to live, liver more, I really don't remember where else, but one of the other resumes I sent was to Dr. Teller's attention.
		And I had referenced our meeting back then.
		A short time later, I got a call from him, and he did remember me, to my surprise, and said we might have a position you're interested in.
		I said, great.
		I went down and was interviewed.
		At that time, there were a couple EG ⁇ G buildings by McCarran Airport out here in Las Vegas.
		I really don't know what's there now.
		Someone tells me there's still one building, but there used to be two before they expanded the airport.
		One was special projects, and I don't know what the other one was, but in either case, I was told to go down there for an interview.
		The interview was relatively short, and I really don't remember specifically what the job entailed, but they told me I was basically overqualified and would become bored with it in a short time.
		I said, fine, but they said we might have something else in the future for you.
		I said, fine, okay, and basically went back home.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Figuring they had blown you off.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I really don't remember what the job was, but it didn't really even sound too exciting to me.
		So it really didn't ring my bell at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you recall anything about a technician level or something that would have been boring?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I really don't.
		Remember this when I go through most of this stuff, people are amazed.
		Boy, how come you can't remember these facts?
		This is a fantastic point in your life.
		Yeah, but it's also a decade old now, and it's hard to remember specifics here and there.
		However, as it turned out, they did call back and had another position.
		The position was stated To be something that was involving a field propulsion system, which to me, in my mind, sounded something along the lines of some electromagnetic propulsion, something that might be used in space, maybe I don't know, an ion drive system using mercury vapor or something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've always been fascinated by propulsion systems.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Anything exerts tremendous amount of energy from explosives to high-energy weapons, anything along those lines, propulsion.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		And coincidentally, the article that Dr. Teller was reading was about a car that I had converted to run on a jet engine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you see, I remembered that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then you converted another one, I believe, to run on hydrogen, didn't you?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, actually, I'm really surprised that you remember that.
		I don't remember.
		That is one of the number one things I get asked about.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have a good memory, Bob.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For some time.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I'm envious of that.
		But in either case, after a more or less lengthy interview, I accepted the job.
		And, of course, I had to go back a second time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you remember any of the details of this rather lengthy interview?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, was a lot of it security-oriented?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, there were certainly a lot of security-oriented questions and so forth later on.
		However, keep in mind that I had just come from Los Alamos just a couple years before where I had Q clearance, civilian, you know, top secret clearance.
		So, yeah, they really didn't have to go and dig deep back into my past to see if I was of Russian descent or anything along those lines.
		So basically, the job just seemed like a typical research and development job.
		I was anxious to get started on it, and things went on.
		All they told me is that it was in a remote area out in the desert, and that I would, initially, I would fly out there maybe once, possibly twice a week, just to kind of get caught up on stuff.
		And they had to reinstate my clearance, which would take perhaps a couple weeks, maybe a month at the latest.
		And so in the meantime, I was given busy, essentially busy work to do, or at least that's how it rang in my mind.
		And this is typical, too, at Los Alamos.
		If you're initially hired there before your clearance goes through, sometimes obtaining Q clearance can take up to 13 months.
		So they don't just have you sit at home.
		You'll, before you go to work for the lab, sit around and work on alarm systems or something like that.
		Something usually below your potential, but nothing to keep you busy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That rings true.
		I was in the Air Force.
		They did that to us all the time.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's pretty common.
		So I thought, well, that's very typical.
		I had no idea what this would actually entail until I got into it.
		And obviously, looking through their eyes, I guess, it made sense that they couldn't, of course, divulge what this job would actually entail before they had gone through all the security and whatnot.
		But that's essentially how the job came about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One thing that I would think you would remember is your impressions of Mr. Teller.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I do, as far as what.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what kind of guy was he?
		You know, just simple questions.
		What kind of guy was he?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		was um he He seems to have two faces, you know, which is strange.
		In talking to him one-on-one, he's a very polite, pleasant, intelligent man.
		However, virtually any interview you'll see of this guy, he comes across as the most pompous, mean person you have ever run into in your life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pompous and mean.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't know how else to describe him, but he was not nearly as short, not physically speaking, but I mean, you know, if you see him in interviews, you'll see him answer questions specifically to the point, short, and on to the next question, and not be very talkative, not offer any information other than what you're immediately talking about.
		And in person, he was certainly not that way.
		So he was the exact opposite, very pleasant and willing to talk about anything.
		Of course, we don't talk about nuclear weapons or anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, that's what I was going to ask about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Last night I interviewed Professor Michio Kaku.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Never heard of him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A very preeminent physicist back at New York University.
		And he, too, has worked with Professor Teller.
		And I asked Professor Kaku why he had not participated in the hydrogen bomb development.
		And he said he simply chose not to.
		He wanted to go into a different direction with physics and had quite a bit to say about Edward Teller.
		And apparently he was consumed during the Cold War years with national security, you know, with being concerned about national security.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		This is Dr. Teller, you're talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, uh-huh.
		And developing bombs.
		And in fact, even today, the programs go on, I guess, with the third generation of hydrogen bombs, sort of designer bombs, Professor Kaku said.
		Anyway, that's why I asked you about Edward Teller.
		Listen, everybody hold tight.
		We're at the bottom of the hour, and we'll be right back.
		Bob Lazar and Gene Huff are my guests.
		And the story that you're about to hear unfold will curl your hair.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Network.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
		I am.
		Oh, where I am.
		It's all clear to me now.
		My heart is on fire.
		My soul's like a wheel that's turning.
		My love is dead lying.
		My love is alive.
		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
		There's something inside that's coming.
		It's making me crazy.
		I'll try to keep it together.
		Ooh, and it's all right and it's coming on.
		We gotta get right back to where we started from.
		Love is good, love will be strong.
		We gotta get right back to where we started from.
		Love is good, love is good.
		Happy birthday, my baby.
		The one to take your baby.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time, the night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		guests are bob lazar along the way to the interview along with gene huff and we'll get back to them in a moment Now back to Bob Lazar and Gene Huff.
		Gentlemen, you're back on the air again.
		All right, Bob.
		you got the job.
		You landed the job, and they had you doing busy work, and then what?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		That's what I thought was going to happen.
		instead uh...
		where did we leave out uh...
unidentified		well actually with busy work they were kind of He had anticipated busy work, but now you had to go to work the first day.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, essentially.
		I guess essentially it was to get caught up with what was going on.
		And really, to my surprise, the security was a little more than oppressive.
		You know, generally you're just assigned a badge and shown the general procedures and things of that sort.
		This was a little different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you still talking about the facility near Las Vegas, or are you talking about being flown up there?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, this is when finally I was flown.
		I'd go to McCarran Airport right by the EG ⁇ G building, and I'd be flown to Groom Lake.
		As I landed there the first time, right across from where the plane parked, there's a security office, or was a security office.
		And that's, I believe I spent quite a while there, but reviewing how secure things are, so on and so forth.
		But this is not where I worked.
		Where I did work was about, from my estimates, about 10 or 15 miles south of there.
		We were taken there in a converted school bus, one of those big bluebird jobs that was painted kind of a dark navy blue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of people, Bob, who don't even believe that Area 51 exists, by the way, much less S4.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I live out here in Perump.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think, I mean, people don't believe Area 51 exists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are a lot of people who don't.
		But I can tell you, Bob, when you drive up by the VFW here in Perump at about 4.30 or 5 in the morning, there's a whole bunch of buses out there, and they've got signs right on the side of the buses.
		I saw it about a month ago, and it just says Area 51.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're not bothering anymore to keep that secret.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess.
		Anyway, so then they take you from Groom Lake, the main facility.
		And incidentally, Bob, up on my website, I've got a picture, a pretty good one, the best one I've ever seen, of the Groom Lake facility.
		And it shows what appeared to be three large hangars, with the one in the center perhaps being the largest.
		Is that your recollection?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Three large hangars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, three big hangars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are a lot of other attendant buildings, but three rather large hangars.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't recall there being three, you know, obviously large hangars on the approach in from Las Vegas, you know, that stood out that much above everything else.
		Okay.
		I recall a huge satellite dish.
		But for the most part, most of the time I was going there at night and certainly didn't have a run of the place.
		All I did was get to go in one time I got to go to the cafeteria.
		But other than that, it was merely a stop toward S4.
		Yeah, toward S4.
		But I don't recall there being three large hangars, really, that stood out more than anything else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you ever see anything unusual at all at Groom Lake?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		The thing I did see that was unusual was some sort of advanced rocket or jet plane.
		People have called it Aurora.
		I don't know if it was Aurora or if it even exists, but John Andrews from the Tester Corporation and a few other aviation buffs kind of interviewed me more or less About that.
		It was something along the lines of an X-15 shaped type of craft.
		Now, we were driving away from this as it was taxiing, but it was a horrendously loud tearing sound that the engines made.
		And I think my original description was that it made a sound like the air was tearing, and that's the best description I could give to it.
		Now, I certainly have heard about the new generation of scramjet engines that have supersonic airflow inside that burn liquid methane and so on and so forth.
		Whether that was these, I don't know.
		But I did get a look up the exhaust as we were turning, and they were a rectangular exhaust with some sort of vanes inside.
		That's all the information I can give, and what it was, I don't know.
		But that was the strangest thing I ever saw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you recall the general shape of the aircraft?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was it close to what we would call a lifting body?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, well, even though the X-15 was a lifting body, it was not a lifting body like you'd see on an F-16 or something where there'd be a lot more wing incorporated into the body.
		It was more along the lines of a long, slender body, maybe the cross between an F-104 and an X-15, for those people that are familiar with those planes.
		Very short, stubby wings, which translates to me, high speed of rotation, high flight speed, and things like that.
		But again, I didn't get a very good look at it.
		And I don't know.
		It could have been anything, a scientific research vehicle or anything.
		I'm certainly not claiming that was Aurora.
		But sometime later, some of those people were down in Rachel, and they heard and recorded a sound that they interpreted as the sky-tearing and played it back to me, and it was, in fact, the identical sound.
		So a couple of years later, it was still operational, whatever that thing was.
		But that was the only unusual thing I ever saw there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you landed, and they generally then, you would, I guess, get off the tarmac there and get right on a bus?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, straight across from where the plane parked, head in, straight across from there in kind of a large parking area was the security building.
		And that's where we picked up the bus and went south.
		The first time I did go in, and it was an extensive little get-together with the security people there and signed all kinds of strange forms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were there a lot of people on the bus?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, not going down to S4.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Generally, the person that accompanied me all the time was Dennis Mariani, who was my supervisor at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		And so then they had you sign all kinds of forms.
		What kind of forms?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, everything from virtually signing away my constitutional rights.
		So should anything go wrong as far as me spilling my guts they would essentially be judge, jury, and executioner.
		As far as the authorization to attain the clearance there, that was an order that was signed by President Reagan, which I saw on the desk.
		I'm trying to remember some of the other paperwork.
		Beforehand, I gave permission to have my phone lines monitored.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy.
		And can you remember any of the wording?
		I mean, you said you signed something that would allow them, if you blab, to be judge, jury, and act.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that may be a slight exaggeration of how the wording was, but certainly I signed, I'm trying to remember what it was, like a 10-10 agreement.
		If you've heard that before, I don't remember the exact title of the document, but it says if you violate national security secrets, it's 10 years in jail and a $10,000 fine.
		Does that sound familiar to you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I heard that before.
		I've signed something like that before, but this was certainly far above and beyond that, which was kind of shocking, actually.
		But at the time, you pretty much just blow it off and say all this means is that I'm going to be involved in something extremely interesting, and it's great.
		So what?
		I have no intention of violating any rules or causing any problems.
		So there's no slap.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, by that time, you're probably tantalized thinking this.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is pumped up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It could be real fun.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you sign all the forms, including one to Gita, tap your phone, huh?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		That was, again, before I went down there, that was down to DGNG, and I gave them permission to do that.
		But that was only for a limited amount of time.
		I don't recall how long that was for.
		By me, that's kind of a silly thing to do in the first place, because if you're going to monitor my phone, why tell me?
		It kind of defeats the purpose.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe because otherwise they have to go through some sort of legal procedure and get some sort of court something or another.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Maybe you would think, in the interest of national security, they could circumvent all that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they probably do, actually.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Who knows?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When they need to.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I had actually doubted that they were actually doing that.
		You know, once in a while, everyone hears little clicks and pops and buzzes on their phone.
		And I really didn't think that was it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My view is a good tap is one you never hear.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is my point exactly.
		Sometime later, I guess we'll get into that.
		But when things turn sour, actually before they did, they had come to my house 30 minutes after I got off the phone with Gene one day, and we were joking around on the phone.
		They came to my front door 30 minutes later with a transcript of our conversation and outlined where the questionable phrases that I had spoken.
		Now, this is amazing to me, considering the closest FBI building down here is on Charleston and Charleston and Maryland Parkway, but I mean, that's you know, that's an amazing feat.
		It almost makes me think they had a little mobile setup somewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're a computer guy, and I've heard, maybe you could confirm this for me, that the NSC has the ability to have supercomputers which virtually are monitoring perhaps even millions of conversations, looking not at the entire conversation, but listening to keywords.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's how they caught that drug kingpin down in Panama or Mexico.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		They scanned every single phone line and just picked out certain words and grabbed them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I encourage my audience to constantly, in the middle of a conversation, just simply say, kilo, kilo.
unidentified		Art, actually, we say assassination, president, things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, geez.
		All right.
		Well, anyway, so onward to Area S4.
		I guess is it a paved road or a bumpy little ride?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It's quite a bumpy little ride.
		It's a dirt road down there follows along the base of the mountain.
		And coming up to the facility, it's right off of Papu's Dry Lake Bed.
		And there's a small mountain range on the side.
		And built right into the side of the mountain is the installation itself, the S4 installation.
		And it's composed of hangar doors around one side.
		And then, I guess I believe on the east, no, on the south facing side, there is the main entrance into the facility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were the windows on the bus darkened, or could you see out as you went to the bus?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, you could.
		The only place you could see out was the front.
		On the bus, most of the times I had gone down there was the driver, a security guard, and Dennis Mariani.
		The security guard almost always stood right up front, not sitting down, but holding that bar, you know, which is right by the door on those buses.
		Sure.
		I don't know if it was in an effort to block my view out there or just to intimidate me and stare at me.
		But that's how he rode the entire trip down there.
		So it was always difficult to see exactly where we were.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what was in between.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, there was really nothing in between.
		It was pretty much desert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dennis Mariani, who was he?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		He was my supervisor.
		What his exact position was was pretty much unclear to me.
		He's a stocky guy, smokes a cigar, kind of very military-looking, short blonde hair.
		It's about the best I could describe him.
		Maybe, you know, late 30s, early 40s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not gregarious, more security-like?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		So I really don't know what his exact function was in the world.
unidentified		He didn't wear a military uniform, though, did he, Bob?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, no, he didn't close.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right, civilian.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you can kind of tell military guys.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, just by the way they look.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the way they comport themselves and so forth and so on.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, again, this is my guesstimation of what this guy was about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was he your constant shadow?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was he with you all the time?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		For the most part, for the most part, until I learned how things operated there.
		I guess I shouldn't jump ahead that far yet.
		Well, I might as well.
		For the most part, for science to progress anywhere, if you're doing any sort of research whatsoever, one of the things that is vital is free discussion, open and free discussion amongst the people that are working on the project.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, obviously, you know, it's how ideas are bounced off other people and the only way things can progress.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wasn't that one of the main contentious points during the development of the atomic bomb in the Manhattan Project?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everything was compartmentalized.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		The military just loves to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the scientists just hate it because they want to bounce ideas off each other.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're saying, really, in 1989, that was still going on.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, probably, well, I don't know.
		How would I know how bad it was during the atomic age?
		But it was very oppressive.
		So much so that our job was very compartmentalized.
		Every aspect was split into groups of people.
		Groups of people are quite literally two people.
		You work on the buddy system.
		In other words, the only person I can talk to, the only person I can discuss anything with, the only person I can relate to is the one person who I work with.
		Any other aspect of the project, any other questions, are simply not to be asked.
		So immediately, you're interfering with your progress in that if whatever you're doing interacts with anything else anywhere, you know, you've run into a block wall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't even really know if you're the first person to come down and be assigned this task, do you?
		Exactly.
		There's something otherwise.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure that I wasn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
unidentified		Yeah.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But you really have no idea what's going on.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure if you found that, well, part A connects to part B, which we're not allowed to see, I'm sure there would be some way to gain some of that information.
unidentified		Bob, not only were you not the first person assigned that path, but this might be an interesting point to tell them why you were told you were hired.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, that's true.
		Actually, one of the questions I've always had is why did they hire me?
		Certainly for this project, I would not be the most intelligent, the most resourceful person that they could possibly hire out of all the people at Los Alamos or anywhere else in The world for that matter.
		So I've always wondered exactly why they would have picked me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so why then did they?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I still don't know.
		I have always wondered this.
		I've ran a lot of things through my mind, you know, different possible scenarios, and they really none of them make any sense.
		was it because edward teller just but i was a nice guy in a potentially used to be into the position it's a Yeah, but in a project like this, why would something like that happen where every person counts?
		You're talking in a project where there are only actually 22 active people working on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but when Teller speaks, the military listens.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's true.
		But I mean, I didn't know him well enough.
		As far as my scientific background, it was actually fairly limited.
		The most, I mean, I was working at Los Alamos on the working with the accelerator at that point, so it really wasn't a propulsion-based job, anything to do with what I was about to have my hands on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they assumed you did have the right background.
		maybe they didn't really know what they had on their hands well one of the Everybody relax.
		It'll be a good one.
		Bob Lazar and Gene Huff are my guests.
		Belt in, it's going to be a good one.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time, the night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
		Music by Ben Thede
		Music by Ben Thede
		We're here.
		Radio Networks presents Art Bell Summer in Time.
		The Night's program originally aired September 26, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For those of you who want a Daniel Brinkley update, and I'm getting a lot of factors, the news just keeps getting better and better.
		Guarded, but better.
		Not only is he out of intensive care, but he's out of the hospital as of late afternoon and convalescing at a undisclosed location so he can get some real rest.
		That is the latest.
		It goes well.
		I'll keep you updated as I can.
		Next update coming Sunday on Dreamland.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Bob Lazar and Gene Huff are my guests.
		And the story that you're about to hear unfold is indeed an amazing, amazing story.
		So, you know, turn up the volume.
		Don't move.
		rivet yourself and stand by the the the Back now to Bob Lazar and Gene Huff, and the story continues.
		Here we are at Area S4, south of Groom Lake.
		And I guess by now you're in great anticipation, Bob, wondering what you're going to be doing.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I was.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I was just about to make a point before we broke, and I can't remember it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's why you have Gene Huff.
unidentified		Gene?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Gene doesn't remember either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gene doesn't remember either.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I think my short-term memory was.
unidentified		He was talking right before we broke about he had no idea why they chose him of all the people in the world.
unidentified		But that's the thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, Gene, you had said, why don't you tell him, Bob, why they chose you?
		And Bob said, I have no idea.
		And we were talking about the work he did at Los Alamos.
unidentified		Right.
		Yeah, he was implying something else.
		In other words, I was telling him, reminding him of why there were vacancies, why they needed to hire someone, why someone wasn't in his slaughter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we were talking about the fact that he was not the first one necessarily.
		And that makes sense.
		In other words, if they had something they didn't understand, I can imagine they would bring in an array of people of different disciplines to take a look-see.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, that might have been the case.
		But to this day, I can't figure out why.
		Certainly you look at my record and the way I approach things and the work I had done before was a little more renegade and maybe that's what they were doing.
		I was looking for someone that would approach a project from a different road.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you able to talk about what you did at Los Alamos?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I did several things.
		Initially I was working on the polarized proton target on the accelerator.
		The accelerator there at Los Alamos is a linear accelerator.
		It stretches about, if I remember, about a half mile.
		And it's one of the more unique setups in that instead of running a single experiment on the output of the accelerator, the beam is split into different areas.
		And all these different areas are, I don't know really if they're leased or rented to other countries or other scientists, but several other people and other groups from all over the world essentially can conduct experiments Simultaneously.
		At different times, they'll fire different particles down the target for different lengths of time, and everyone can run their own experiments and see what's going on.
		There was also some Star Wars development done there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sitting here listening, trying to imagine any application for what you were about to do.
unidentified		And you don't at S4.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		There's none.
		There was no direct connection at all.
		This is one of the things that has perplexed me forever.
unidentified		But how could there be?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But maybe this was the point that I was going to make.
		In fact, it is.
		It just popped back in my mind.
		What was strange about the interviews I had had was certainly there were some technical questions here and there.
		They essentially knew my background already.
		But what they were most concerned was what I had done in my spare time, which I found to be very unusual.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, what had you done in your spare time?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You had worked with propulsion systems in your spare time, right?
unidentified		Right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they were essentially concerned with more of my, you know, for lack of a better word, playtime than they were what I was or what I had currently done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let's take this back to Edward Teller.
		When you had a conversation with Edward Teller, did you talk about your playtime?
		Did you talk about...
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		So we were talking about, in fact, at that time I had filed patents on it of how the device operated without the need for fuel pumps and things of that sort because of the type of fuel it used.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is a static ramjet engine?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It was an offshoot of a pressure jet engine, which was invented by Eugene Gluharf, who was also, coincidentally, the inventor of the rocket ejection seat that's used on all fighter aircraft.
		Indeed.
		He developed that, I believe, in the 50s.
		And in the 70s, I had run into him and really, as a kid back then, started working in my spare time as I went to Pierce College at that time, working to improve on the design.
		I came off with an offshoot of the design, which was a little more complicated, but produced a lot more thrust.
		The basic design of the engine is it has no moving parts at all.
		One property of propane is that it sticks to hot metal.
		This eliminates all the needs for flame holders and things of that sort inside the engine, which makes it more complicated.
		I'm trying to think of a couple other points about it.
		It was a pretty different design as far as jet engines go.
		And with the changes I made, it was essentially a different type of engine.
		And after I had gone past the development of it on a test stand, I built a slightly larger one and installed it in the back of a car.
		And it was a convenient mobile test setup as opposed to play around with in the desert.
		Sure.
		Which is where the whole article came from in the newspaper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, then I think you've answered your own question.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But then playing around with jet engines really doesn't qualify him or her to work on something of extraterrestrial origin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but then again, who does have qualifications to go work on something?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a point.
		So I can understand.
		And here's how I would, based on what you said, I'll bet here's what happened.
		The article in the paper, the conversation with Edward Teller, and probably his suggestion, which probably amounts to more of an order, that you'd be a good person, kind of a rebel, to go take a look at the stuff they had at Area S-Forum.
		That would be my best guess.
		That's a pretty good guess.
		What do you think, Gene?
unidentified		I agree.
		I think that Edward Teller's word carried all of the weight in the world.
		And I also agree with you that who would have a background, who would be qualified to work on a gravity propulsion system and an antimatter reactor and the things Bob later ran into.
		And Bob's a comprehensive problem solver, has a background in physics and electronics and propulsion, and I can understand why they'd hire him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, if you're going to go, if you really have extraterrestrial craft and you're trying to figure out what makes them go, then you're going to go find somebody who works out of the box.
		In other words, is a bit of a rebel and kind of works out of the normal box and experiments and tinkers and is interested in propulsion.
		That's the kind of person you're going to go for because there's nobody out there with specific qualifications for that job.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Obviously.
unidentified		In addition to probably other considerations of a psychological profile and, you know.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that they were also very concerned with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your psychological profile.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they were concerned with how I handle stress.
		In fact, I remember one of the questions was, you know, have you ever thrown tools around in the lab or anything to that effect?
		And I thought these were very strange questions for what we were talking about.
		But well, in either case, I got the job and wound up there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Haven't you ever thrown tools?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, actually, I haven't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have.
		I've kicked radios, too.
		Went all the way across the room, put my foot through it.
		Anyway, so then you seem qualified in most every way, as much as one could be qualified for that.
		So here you come to S4.
		And were you immediately led into this area where these craft were?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, absolutely not.
		In fact, the first day there, I went in and I think my first stop was to go to the medical office there.
		I believe there was a nurse in there.
		I'm pretty sure that was my first stop.
		And I had to go through a series of what I was told were allergen tests.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Allergen tests.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		They took my arm and drew a little graph on it and pricked each little area in my arm with different little needles.
		And in fact, I was not permitted back to work, I think, for two weeks until there was a reaction, or if there was to be a reaction, with any of the substances they put on my skin.
		And they said, you know, we're working with some extremely exotic materials here that we're not all that familiar with, and we want to know if there's going to be any problem with them.
		And I said, well, that's, again, odd, but acceptable.
		And I was also given an injection there, too, which was a wide-spectrum.
		What did they call it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Antibiotic?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, it wasn't a wide-spectrum antibiotic.
unidentified		It was a wide-spectrum something or other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's always good to know what they're shooting you with.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Now, I mean, there have been so many, I'm sure which we'll get into later, you know, so many ridiculous stories, offshoots of what actually had happened to me.
		You know, people said, oh, well, they injected you with thorazine or so on, or this was the memory drug that wiped out your memory so you could only remember back and forth, and, you know, so on and so forth.
		But I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case.
		They were mainly concerned about the, you know, here you're dealing with actual extraterrestrial materials.
		And if we're going to be crawling around on them, taking things apart and having contact with them, you know, they imagine they want to make sure that the people working on it are fairly safe.
		Well, that, in one hand, weighed against the fact that, you know, don't forget the United States government fed fallout to people from time to time and, you know, did other strange things to them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But when you originally told your story, Bob, years ago, that wasn't known.
		Hazel O'Leary was not around yet, and everybody regarded your story as absolutely incredible beyond belief.
		But then when Hazel O'Leary stepped out and said the following occurred, everybody went into kind of a stupor and said, my God, we did that?
		So your story isn't so out of the way.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot has actually changed in the past 10 years.
		if you remember you know ten years ago to the predominant theory about how gravity propagates in any physics textbook you know related to gravitons and now the predominant theory is gravitational waves which is exactly how some of uh...
		And now it's spoken of as a matter of fact.
		This is how gravity propagates through space.
		And it's just interesting to see how things slowly, over the span of a decade, quietly change.
		That's one thing I do keep an eye on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I take it your arm didn't break out inappropriately, so you passed.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I think it did develop a small eruption somewhere, but it was nothing to be concerned about, or so I was told.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		So we just proceeded from there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As you know, there is a group of people suing the government over illnesses they have suffered from work they did at Area 51.
		And that is proceeding quietly in court.
		It's not going to be so quiet when it goes to trial, but that's underway now.
		So indeed, there are some pretty exotic materials up there.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Actually, you just reminded me of something.
		When was that, Gene?
		Was it right after that where I collapsed from the kidney?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Do you remember that?
unidentified		Right, right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Was that there or after I had left the project?
unidentified		No, you were still in the project.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		That was right after that.
unidentified		Right after they did these tests and gave me a shot.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's kind of surprising.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I forget that.
unidentified		Take a strange substance.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		All I remember is that you were at a Toyota dealer or something like that.
unidentified		And he was in such pain, his kidneys hurt so bad, he thought he was going to die.
		And to that point, Bob had never had any health problems or never had any sedatives or painkillers.
		And the doctor gave Bob a shot of Demerol.
		And I called him.
		And he was floating on Cloud 9.
		It wasn't even coherent.
		And I came to his house to see what was wrong.
		And then he was literally high from a painkiller they gave him just so he could stand the pain in his kidneys.
		So whatever went through his system certainly stuck there.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so there was an adverse reaction to something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that was, well, of course, you have no way of knowing whether it was the allergy test they put you through or the shot they gave you?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Or wasn't it an amazing coincidence that he got prior kidney or something?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, it is, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I take it you went to the doctor.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I did, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did he say?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't remember.
		I think he said he gave me a shot of painkiller, Demerol, I believe it was, and he took a urine sample, a blood test, and he asked if I had any previous problems, anything strange.
		And obviously I said no, no, no.
		Certainly didn't mention anything about getting an injection in a strange place in the middle of the desert.
unidentified		Didn't they do x-rays or a CAT scan or something?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Not a CAT scan.
		Yeah, they did just an X-ray to see if there was any blockage.
		But a day later, or I think even the next Morning.
		Everything was fine.
		The x-rays came back negative, and I believe the blood work came back negative too, as did the urine sample.
		So, in fact, I think his conclusion was that perhaps I had passed a small stone and wound up in my bladder, and then it would probably hurt coming out again.
		But that never occurred, and whether or not that scenario is correct, again, is just speculation.
		But I don't know, you just stirred that up in my memory.
		I don't think I've been able to get in that sense that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's how little bits and pieces come back.
		How's your health now, by the way, and since then?
		Okay.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, fine, no problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So anyway, you pass all their little tests.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Pass all that.
		The next thing to happen was that I was led into a room with quite a number of little briefing packages, briefing papers.
		These range from two pages to about five pages, little folders with different aspects of the project that I was working on.
		This was, I believe, the part of the first day and the second day that I was working there.
		So they just sat you down at a table and had you begin to read about these were just basic overviews of what each group was doing, just essentially to give you knowledge of what the other facets of the project were about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A general overall project.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It had no specifics whatsoever.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But if in, for instance, there was a group with metallurgy, so on and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It also contained some of the names of the projects.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it did.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's a good place to break, so relax.
		We'll be back shortly.
		The story you're hearing is a remarkable one, and we're beginning to hear new details because Bob's remembering new details.
		Bob Lazar and Gene Huff are my guests.
		The subject, Area 51, more specifically, Area S4.
		Whereas you will hear shortly, extraterrestrial craft were back-engineered.
		Yes, that's what Bob did.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
		Can't stay alive without you.
		Oh, baby, don't leave me this way.
		I can't expect I'm your favorite.
		Don't leave me this way.
		Baby, my heart is full of love and desire for you.
		Now come on down and do what you gotta do.
		You started this fire down in my soul.
		Now can't you see it's burning out of control.
		Now can't you see it's burning out of control.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Pre-Hear Radio Networks, tonight an ongoing presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here I am, and Bob Lazar and Gene Huff are here.
		It's the story of a lifetime.
		And we're trying to develop it slowly and get as many details as we can.
		But we're about to get to the very interesting part here.
		So hang with us.
		Now back to Bob Lazar and Gene Huff.
		Now, you're welcome to facts in a question.
		As a matter of fact, I already have many, but I'm going to hold them until the story unfolds completely.
		Then we'll ask some of the facts questions.
		Then we'll go to the phones.
		So if your dialing finger is itchy, and it is because they're all ringing, just relax.
		We'll get to the phones in due time.
		Right now, let us unwind the story.
		Back to Bob Lazar and Gene Huff, gentlemen.
		You're back on the air again.
		All right.
		so here we are are you're in a little room with a bunch of briefing papers giving you more or less an outline but not specifics of what of the work being done on Well, at this point, yeah, this was the first time I really knew exactly what I would be doing.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		And this is where it was stated that the project was essentially that of back engineering an extraterrestrial craft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That must be quite a line to read.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was, and it was also hard to believe, because certainly going into the project, I was basically a Neptune Boltz guy and certainly didn't believe in UFOs and thought everyone was crazy that even considered the topic.
		I certainly believe that there was life elsewhere.
		Certainly life can exist on other planets, other galaxies, other solar systems.
		But I just found it very hard to believe that there was any intelligent life visiting Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You had never had any close encounter of the third kind.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No.
		No.
		And I thought people were basically crackpots that thought.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whacked out.
unidentified		But also, he was into science and technology, and he certainly wasn't well read.
		I mean, he had never heard of the Betty and Barney Hill case, or He didn't know anything about the Roswell crash or anything along those lines.
		I mean, he wasn't interested and he didn't pursue it.
		And if you all remember, really a decade ago, I mean, some of that information was available, but certainly wasn't prevalent to the point that it is today with websites and movies and television shows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, indeed.
		As a matter of fact, before we proceed, Bob, I'd be very, very interested to hear your reaction.
		I have interviewed now twice, very rare interviews, by the way, hours-long interviews, with Colonel Philip Corso.
		And I'm kind of interested to get your reaction to Colonel Corso's revelations about the back engineering and insertion into American industry he did of artifacts from the Roswell crash.
		Were you surprised to hear about that?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		This is the first time hearing about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that right?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		What is inserted into the world?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Philip J. Corso, Colonel.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Believe it or not, I really am completely uninterested in the topic UFOs and never follow it at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is a man who was given the job.
		He's now 82 years of age, by the way.
		He was given the job of, he was actually handed a filing cabinet by a general, and he was given a job of figuring out what some of these things were and introducing them into American industry, specifically Bell Labs and some others at the time.
		And these were artifacts from Roswell, and he is very, very credible.
		He wrote a book called The Day After Roswell.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		What specifically?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		What devices?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Devices that led to, and it's going to be hard, night vision scopes, for example, fiber optics, for example, the transistor, for example.
		A lot of leaps that, by the way, particularly the transistor, there's not much of a paper trail for.
		If you look back at the development in Bell Labs of the transistor, there's not a big paper trail.
		Yes, it arrived, but there's not a big paper trail about how it arrived.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm so skeptical of something like that.
		The reason being, well, let me tell you, certainly you've seen pictures of the first transistor.
		We know it was developed at Bell Labs.
		We know there were a couple of guys working on it.
		But you know what the first transistor was.
		It was essentially just, I mean, it was more along the lines of a diode, just a PN and a P junction, a big slab of silicon.
		It really couldn't do anything.
		Certainly, if we had been given that advanced technology at that time, wouldn't it have been something a little More down the road.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of it they had no idea.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, is he saying that he worked with some of these guys or hinted to them?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Or was this all a big conspiracy and everyone was...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a long story, and I don't want to burden you with it.
unidentified		He's highly qualified.
		I mean, this guy is just on a plate of paper.
		Bart, he was an officer in the military and held some very lofty positions, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'd actually be interested to look at that.
unidentified		I actually gave him UFO magazine so he could read about it, but he doesn't read about UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		It really is true.
		People don't believe this about you, Bob.
		They think you are the guru of ufology.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, God, boy, have you got the wrong guy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, it just isn't true.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, please.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You see, I remember the interview I did with you before.
		I remember it very well.
		anyway uh...
		so here you are reading about all of this and you get sort of an overview of it all and probably by it well I mean, is your mouth hanging open?
		Extra-trusted.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It is to some extent.
		And another part of me is beginning to wonder whether or not this is true at all.
		Or if this is some sort of psychological test.
		You know, everything else was so way out, essentially.
		Maybe this is another game that we're playing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they're just trying to determine what reactions of people in science would be to extraterrestrial craft or the fact of extraterrestrial terrestrial presence of any kind at all.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And certainly all these thoughts had gone through my mind.
		From there, now the days have kind of blended together in my mind.
		It's hard to separate what happened on each day after that.
		But I believe that the next time I went there was the time that I was actually let in through one of the hangar doors.
		Now, normally we drove alongside of the installation and came in the main entrance.
		This one time we drove up and one of the hangar doors was open.
		In the hangar doors, as plain as day, or in the hangar door, as plain as day was the craft that I had later labeled the sport model.
		A very sleek-looking, very stereotypical flying saucer.
		My immediate reaction was, this is the new generation fighter that we're working on.
		For whatever reason, it's saucer-shaped.
		But immediately in my mind, I said, this explains all the UFO sightings throughout history.
		It's just been the development of this thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here it is.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, here it is.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		This makes perfect sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got a model five feet away from me here, a tester model, which I believe the tester corporation built based on your description.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It looked exactly like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that what we're talking about?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The sport model you call the sport model?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, very sleek, sporty looking.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's it exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll be damned.
		All right.
		So you drove by this thing.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		We actually stopped in front.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In front.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I was led out of the bus, the security guard first, then Dennis and myself.
		Dennis walked on ahead of me, and the security guard told me to keep my eyes forward and just follow Dennis into the back.
		And at the back of the hangar, there was a door that led in to a hallway in the office area.
		I walked right by the craft.
		The door was off the craft, or hatch, whatever you want to call it.
		Right alongside of it was an American flag adhered to it, a little sticker, not a small flag.
		Now, all that did was cement it in my mind, thinking, well, obviously this is it.
		I slid my hand along the side of the craft, which the guard didn't appreciate, and I was told, again, keep my hands at my side.
		What did it feel like?
		I say it felt like metal, and the reason I say that is because it was cool to the touch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, yes.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		So it could have been an advanced ceramic or something, absolutely.
		But to me, it felt and it appeared like metal.
		We continued in, and this is where I first met the person that I'd be working with, Barry Castillio or Castile, however you pronounce that.
		And this is when I first saw the initial components of the craft that had been taken out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they had begun to gut this thing then?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Not this particular one.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		There was more than one there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		There were actually nine craft, not all like this.
		But from what they told me, from what I saw, there were nine craft.
		And don't ask me where they came from or how we got them or anything.
		I have no idea.
		But the craft were in really different states.
		Some were completely dismantled.
		Some looked as if they would be operational, that they hadn't been touched at all.
		But apparently, from what I understand, all the crafts had the exact same reactor and propulsion system in them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did any of the craft look as though they had been in a collision or crash?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No.
		The only one that had damage to it looked intentional.
		It was a craft that had a It's kind of hard to describe, but the area around the craft, the lip, if you will, was very broad and flat and thin, and it looked as if it had been stood up and a projectile fired through it.
		The hole from the distance that I saw looked around four inches, but it could have been any size.
		It looked as if the metal was bent outward.
		Now that could have been dropped from the sky.
		Someone could have fired a projectile through it.
		Who knows?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, the blown is very interesting.
		In other words, we're not dealing with Superman's cape here.
		Holes could be blown through it.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Of course, on the other hand, it's an extremely unscientific test.
		You take something as prized as that.
		You don't stand it up and fire a cannon at the thing or a howitzer.
		You certainly take a small quantity off and do your analysis of that piece.
		But for whatever reason, that was the only one that looked like it sustained any damage.
		Some of the other craft were dismantled to some point, but certainly not wrecked.
		The only craft that I was permitted to work on, to touch, to have anything to do with, was the craft that I termed the sport model.
		that's the one you have a model of their was you turn around as you picked the walk in on all of this so bob This is I saw this one craft.
		Now, the hangar doors are all, the hangars are all next to each other, and only at one time, you know, way down the road, were all the bay doors open at one time.
		And I got a glance to see in the other hangar doors.
		But for the most part, at this point, all I knew was that there was this one craft.
		And now in my mind, I am convinced that this is just a U.S. manufactured, extremely secret fighter reconnaissance craft.
		Who knows what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the little American flag did that for you?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, without question, that was it.
		It's a done deal.
		So that's where that is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you say?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You look at it and say, turn around to your companion, we'll call him, and say, wow, or my God, or where did these come from?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, nothing.
		All I just had a smile on my face, if I remember, walked into the back door, and then the introductions began.
		The only other person I really interfaced with was Rene.
		I don't remember his last name, but I actually can't remember what in the world Renee did.
		But for the most part, Barry and I worked closely together.
		Now, this is also the first time that my supervisor left me alone with Barry.
		And, you know, this is where the learning process essentially began.
		This is where my view of everything changed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they tell you at that point what your specific job was?
		In other words, there it is.
		And it's sort of like, okay, what am I supposed to do?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's where we begin now.
		This is exactly what this meeting with Barry entails, is the description of precisely what I'm supposed to be working on, what my function in life is now at this place.
		And this is where I find out that we are essentially, well, number one, that the briefings I was reading are correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, they are extraterrestrial.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		These craft are extraterrestrial.
		The scope, the aim of our project is now to back engineer these craft, or this one particular craft, with the intention of duplicating it, or duplicating the subsystems within it using earthly materials.
		So that was the project.
		Now, this hit me quite hard at that time, and needless to say, this night I didn't get any sleep.
		It was fairly exciting before that.
		And certainly Barry just telling me this wasn't enough.
		This is when we also had some demonstrations on what we had found out or what information had been gleaned so far from the technology that we've seen.
		You know, it was all very fantastic, and it was absolutely mind-boggling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know you don't follow all this, but I have to ask, have you seen Independence Day?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay, good.
		At least you've done that.
		You remember when they brought everybody into Area 51 and they opened the big door and you want to see it?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, they invited me to the premiere of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, they did?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		In fact, they made me stand up for some reason.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Made me.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they introduced me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But in fact, someone called, I don't remember the people involved there, but when they were talking about the movie, the making of the movie, so on and so forth, the lab technician there, I don't remember his name in the movie, but who wore the white lab coat, they called the Bob Lazar guy.
unidentified		Dean Devlin was the writer.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I don't remember the other people that were there, but I thought that was pretty funny.
		But as they said, they had taken, for the movie, they had taken much of the UFO lore stories and everything that had been circulating around for years and threw together the script in a short time and produced it.
		It looked nothing like that, by the way, but the idea was the same.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, same idea.
		All right, well, we're at an interesting juncture here, and the real fun is about to begin.
		Were you told that you were going to be working on one specific area of back engineering, or were you going to get the Power and propulsion system, and everything else was essentially off-limits.
		Meaning you couldn't even touch it?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, I couldn't touch it.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		However, I did get to go on the craft one time, and this was for the express purpose of only seeing the placement of the reactor and how the gravity amplifiers worked, how the emitters moved freely underneath on the primary level, and just how all the subcomponents fit together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's a good place to hold it.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		Take a good few moments to relax, and we'll be right back.
		And we will kind of recap at the top of the hour.
		And then you're going to hear about an extraterrestrial craft, what it looked like, what the power and propulsion systems were, how they worked, and believe me, much more.
		It's not Independence Day, but it's the same idea, except in this case, it's for real.
		From the high desert, an area near Dreamland, this is Coast to Coast.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time, the night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
		Music by Ben Thede
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Post-A-Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		What an unusual, rare opportunity.
		One that may not come along for a while, incidentally.
		My guests are Bob Lazar and Gene Huff.
		Bob Lazar is the ex-government scientist who back in 1989 came forward with the fact that he had been part of a team of scientists who back-engineered extraterrestrial disks flying saucers at a base known as S4, 15 miles south of the infamous Area 51 at Groom Lake, Nevada.
		Along with him, Gene Huff, Bob's longtime friend and business partner, in fact, really all these years, who's a writer and co-producer of the Lazar tape, which we'll tell you about.
		Gene is a real estate appraiser and screenwriter.
		As a matter of fact, he has written the screenplay and has won the competition for that, as for the Bob Lazar story.
		And in the first two hours of the program, we've moved through Bob Lazar's employment, early employment in New Mexico, to his introduction to Edward Teller, to his employment, finally, and we've had a lot of details we've never heard before, at Area S4.
		And we have just arrived at the point in the story where he has met up with what he calls the sport model craft.
		And I've got a studio cam here, and I will endeavor over the next 30 minutes to take a good picture of the Tester model, which is said to be a faithful reproduction, and we'll confirm that with Bob, of what he saw.
		I've got one right here.
		By the way, you can get one of those from Tester.
		so all of that and a bit of a surprise coming up in a moment so all of that Now back to my guests, Bob Lazar and Gene Huff.
		And gentlemen, I have a surprise for you.
		Bob, you were, in effect, recruited, I think, by Edward Teller.
		I have a friend who's listening to the show this morning as we speak, believe it or not, all the way down in Perth, Australia.
		His name is Stan Dale, and he was also recruited by Edward Teller.
		And he's got a question or two for you.
		I'm going to see if we can bring him up.
		All the way from Perth, Australia, there's a slight delay in the phone line transmission.
		Stan, are you there?
unidentified		Yeah, Ark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, very good.
		Bob Lazar is on the line, and I know you followed the Lazar story.
		And you might briefly, just very briefly, recap yours and ask a question.
unidentified		All right, very briefly.
		I was working in the computer business in Dallas in 19, oh, I think it was 70, 71.
		And among other things, I was also doing some investigation for the FBI at the corporations where I was working, as an undercover kind of plant.
		During this time, at this company where I was working, a large corporation, it was called Valtex Optical at the time, had 100 subcorporations, and a lot of them operated in Nevada.
		And during the time I was there, I was approached by one of the senior executives of this company to go meet with a Dr. James R. Maxfield, at the radiation research clinic over a couple miles from where we had the office in Dallas.
		And I didn't go for about a month, and then I met this same executive at a morning coffee in the executive tea room.
		And he said to me, I hadn't been to see his friend Maxfield, and the reason he'd asked me to go is because I had talked to him about some work that I've been doing in my time off, my private time at home, in my own laboratory, working with two things.
		One was a thermionic electrical converter, and the other was a rather novel method, I thought, of propelling a flying aircraft, which was circular-shaped and, you know, flying saucer, you would call them today.
		Anyway, in the course of having told this guy just over coffee, well, he kind of got reason to be interested in it and told me I ought to go talk to a friend of his and didn't do it, so 30 days passed, and he says to me, look, you haven't been to see Jim Maxwell yet.
		Please go this afternoon.
		I've booked you an appointment at 3.
		So I go over this place, and it's not like a place that sees people very often.
		It was open.
		The door was kind of ajar, but there was no cars in front of it and daylight.
		And I walked in.
		The lights were off down the hallway, and I walked down the hallway, and it was kind of dark.
		And suddenly this nurse, well, I guess a receptionist type lady, appears out of nowhere from the side and says, yes, can I help you?
		I said, oh, gee, I didn't know anybody was here.
		Look, I think I've got the right building.
		I'm looking for this Dr. James R. Maxfield.
		And she says, oh, yes, Dr. Maxfield is here.
		He'll be out in just a second.
		He's down the lab.
		And so, sure enough, within a minute or so, this big, tall dude comes out in a white medical coat, smoking a cigar, wearing cowboy boots.
		He says, ah, yes, yes, I've been expecting you.
		Come on into my office.
		And at this time is when I first got introduced to this clandestine organization in the United States that was headed by Dr. Edward Teller and who Maxfield worked with, with Teller.
		And this organization had been working since the mid-50s on something like 50-some-odd projects, all related directly to flying saucer technology, if you wish to put it down to that level.
		I was just the latecomer on the scene.
		They showed me about their base down at the South Pole under the ice cap.
		I had to access it by submarine or something similar.
		And they explained to me, they knew what I was doing.
		They even knew what I was thinking versus, because they asked me about my physics.
		And I said, well, look, thinking I was talking to some of the greatest physicists in the world, which I was, I didn't have my degree in that area.
		And, you know, I said, well, look, guys, sir, you know, I've been working on a way to unify gravitational electromagnetic and magnetic effects.
		And he said, oh, look, spare me all that.
		He said, you're working on anti-gravity.
		Let's get to the major matter.
		How are you doing it?
		And that's when he started telling me that I need to finish my research with them down in Australia instead of America.
		And that's why I'm here today because those guys packed me up and sent me down here.
		We parted ways in 1972 or three, I think it was.
		I was only with them for about a year.
		And I got rather disenchanted with all the technology they were holding back from the people.
		I still was young enough to think that we could save the world by giving technology to countries that needed food and grain and water and stuff shipped back and forth rather rapidly.
		But anyway, because of that, we parted ways in a real huff.
		And I kind of hid in the bush for a while because they really kind of thought it would be better if I was buried.
		And then after coming out of that, I wrote the book, The Conspiracy, to kind of be insurance and told a lot of what I had gone through in there and left the rest for, I'll tell the rest if you get short with me.
		So now that's my side, Bob.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		That's a sounding story.
unidentified		Did you ever run into Jim Maxwell at all and your side of it?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, I haven't.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I've got a thousand questions now, but one of the prominent one on my mind here is what function, what was Teller's function?
unidentified		Well, he seemed to be in charge or overseer of all the projects at the highest level.
unidentified		That's all that Tell was told.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		See, this is something I've always wondered about the project down where I worked.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		and no one really ever spoke of him, but I got just a gut feeling that he was silently in charge of everything.
unidentified		In fact, Bob, if I remember right, when Teller called you, when you originally got the call from him to contact the gentleman at EG ⁇ G, Teller said that he was no longer active but worked in a chief consultant capacity.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Something happened after I left because, in fact, I'll tell you, I had minders appointed down here who really run this country and run the prime ministers.
		My minders operate out of a group called the Melbourne Club.
		And they're, you know, the old kind of British Raj, you know, cigars and pork white-haired guys.
		Anyway, they brought me into their halls of power, and I had lunch a few times with the King Pens there, and my mentor was Sir John Williams and Henry Somerset.
		Sir Henry Somerset.
		Anyway, we were sitting there one day at lunch, and they were talking amongst themselves about someone moving in on them, or they were like an undeclared war status, and that they were losing.
		And they never mentioned aliens or any of that kind of stuff, so don't jump the gun.
		But I heard them say, well, yeah, Henry, it looks like we're going to lose this.
		They're just moving in.
		And I waited, and nothing else was said.
		And I said, well, excuse me, gentlemen.
		I said, by they, thinking I'd be clever, I said, do you mean the European economic community?
		Because we've been talking large corporate or money deals in the country.
		And they both look at me like I'd done a root at the table or something and said, oh, maybe we'll do some fishing up the farm this weekend.
		And yes, John.
		And immediately, I knew that I asked a question that I should have known the answer to already and didn't.
		Anyway, they indicated at that point that they were being taken over.
		Well, I got away from the organization and wrote the book and all that.
		Years passed, and about seven years ago, I have a friend in Scottsdale, Arizona, named Conrad Murphy.
		And Conrad goes to a lot of places.
		he races boats and cars, and he's a fairly active fellow in business.
		Anyway, Conrad is invited to give the morning devotional at some big business breakfast, like for the Arizona 500 Club or something like that.
		And so he wrote me, he says, look, guess who I'm going to give the breakfast benediction right next to, who's sitting right next to me next week, is Edward Teller.
		And I said, wow, I said, can you get to Dr. Teller and say, take a message.
		I want to talk to him.
		He said, not a problem.
		So I waited and waited, and the week passed, and Conrad brought me back, and he says, wow.
		He says, well, I sat next to him.
		And he said, it was all kind of normal conversation, give the benediction, eat a bit.
		And he says, after he'd had a couple bites, I said to him, look, what do you know about this fellow named Stan Deo, you know, down in Australia working on anti-gravity and, you know, flying saucers?
		And he said, Teller looked at him very blankly and said, don't know the fellow.
		He says, oh, that's odd.
		And he reaches in his coat and pulls out a copy of my book with my photo on it and turns it up in front of Ed Teller.
		He said the blood drained out of his face.
		And he looked away and a general over on the side who was in uniform came over and took Teller and said, Dr. Teller's got another meeting and took him away.
		So I wondered at that point whether Teller was in charge of anything anymore.
		You see what I'm saying?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I do.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		That's very interesting.
unidentified		I've never been able to get back to the team.
		I think they did lose.
		Whatever was trying to take them over did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so anyway, after all of that, Stan had to sort of lay low for a while, and he just sort of ended up staying in Australia.
unidentified		Will, Art, I had to give up my U.S. citizenship to keep from being extradited at the time that they were trying to get to the bottom of this.
unidentified		I'd love to be back in the state.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Were they trying to prosecute you for anything?
unidentified		Sorry.
		Sorry.
		Say again?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, that's a delay we have.
unidentified		Sorry, my fault.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, just go on.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		what was the reason what we do uh...
unidentified		where they try to run out the key you for uh...
		One of them was that there were a number of things.
		Can I just put the dog on?
		She wants to say something here.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Just a second.
unidentified		I don't know.
unidentified		As I said to you, I was doing some undercover work for the FBI, and they deny, of course, that there were 700 of us doing it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a target.
		It's a clear dog from Australia.
		Believe me, it's coming through very clearly.
unidentified		These are the most popular dogs on the planet.
unidentified		They've seen a bird out here, and they're trying to eat it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The question is, Stan, were they trying to prosecute you or were there threats on your life?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How serious was it?
unidentified		Both both.
unidentified		When I went underground, they had really determined they were going to put me underground permanently in Melbourne.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, that resulted.
unidentified		I ran, and for a little over a year, I traveled in the Australian bush, let the hair grow out and wore the sunglasses and traveled with the hippies and whatever just disappeared.
		Finally, I got hungry and had to come back in.
		And when I did, I came in under an assumed name and worked for a while, but eventually they caught up with me because I applied for work in companies and had to show them my passport.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Can I interrupt you for a second?
		What was the threat that you presented to them?
		Were they afraid of the information that you had?
		Okay, so that was their main concern that you were running around with information that you could possibly divulge to someone else?
unidentified		Well, first of all, I would be able to identify them.
		I mean, I could identify, you know, like by name, the people that were head of it in the Aeronautical Research Center at Fisherman's Bend in Melbourne and in the Australian Club, who, of course, control the prime ministers of this country.
		And there was a number of things that I was privy to that would be rather embarrassing.
		But in their defense, let me say this.
		Now that I've had time to think about it, if I'd have been in their position and they were holding the secrets they were and were under the pressures they were, I would probably have ordered my execution as well.
		It's bigger than one person's life.
		It's a really, I'm sure you would appreciate this, Bob.
		What we're talking about is a cover-up of incredible proportions.
		Were you able to continue your research or did they have all the requisite hardware?
		Of course they did.
		I did do some.
		I did play around a bit what I could do.
		But, you know, I didn't have access to high-temperature coating.
		I couldn't put my barium titanate or anything else on the capacitive surfaces.
		But that video you did with the little ship that had the thermionic converter on it, I don't know why you had to have an element, whatever it was, 1115, because we were quite aware that you could convert thermal energy at around 37 gigahertz on the sampling frequency.
		You could take random heat and convert it into flowing electric energy.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, that makes a thermionic generator.
unidentified		That's it, that's it.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but all that does, yeah, that's just providing electrical power.
unidentified		That's correct.
		That's correct.
		As I said, we didn't need 115 to do that, though.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, no one does.
		I mean, that's how space thermionic generators just use plutonium to warm essentially a thermocouple using a Seeback effect or whatever to produce electrical energy.
		However, the basis of the craft that I worked on, the electrical energy was merely a byproduct.
		That was not how the entire craft operated.
		That's where the 115 came in.
unidentified		Now, the other thing I noticed here is you were using gravity wave A and gravity wave B focus fields.
unidentified		In the stuff we were working on, the field we would generate was in a toroidal field that would curl that's exactly how this was generated.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It was essentially in a torrent around the craft.
		Ah, okay.
		In fact, there's I just have some of the animators gave me some fantastic graphics that I haven't really been able to post anywhere, but I did want to put them up on the web somewhere because there are a lot of people that are interested in the actual propagation of the gravity field.
		And I was just about to give those to the guys that handle our web page.
		And it might be worth having a look at that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's the website?
		Look, just go to my site, and you'll be able to jump right over.
		Stan, we're out of time in this half hour.
		But from what I've heard, I think that you two should be communicating.
unidentified		I know.
		Well, I never have been able to reach Bob.
		He kind of did like I did, went to ground, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, what I'll do is I'll provide Bob with your number in Perth.
		Okay.
		With your permission.
		Is that all right?
unidentified		Fine.
unidentified		Excellent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I think the email might work well, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it does work well, and we can make those arrangements as well.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, that would be fine.
unidentified		Yeah, I'd like to talk to him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Stan, thank you very much, and we'll put you two in contact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right?
unidentified		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good night from America, and we'll be right back with Bob Lazar and Gene Huff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		You're listening to Arc Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from September 27.
		Premier Radio Network presents Artfell somewhere in time.
		The night's program originally aired September 26, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bob Lazar and Gene Huffer, my guests.
		This is one of the wildest, most believable stories you've ever heard.
		I wonder if everybody out there understands the significance of what they're hearing.
		It's sort of coming out in a matter-of-fact way, but do you understand the significance of what you're hearing?
		Take Standalo, for example.
		Very much a religious person, a very devout Christian, and very much a truth teller.
		And now Bob Lazar, and the same matter-of-fact kind of delivery.
		But consider, please consider exactly what you're really hearing this morning, the implications of what you're hearing, what it means.
		Gene and Bob, you're both back on the air.
		It's kind of interesting when you listen to people like Stan and you listen to people like Bob, as far as we've gone with the story, it's all laid out in such a calm, matter-of-fact way that I think a lot of the public has a tendency to lose sight of the implications of what they're hearing.
		But you've told the story so many times, Bob, that I guess it comes out that way, sort of in a matter-of-fact way, huh?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it pretty much does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let us return to your story.
		Now you've had a chance to get in the craft, and what are you doing?
		What are you working on?
		What are you seeing?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, if I remember, I have just met with Barry, and we're now going over things.
		Let's see.
		Well, this is, as I said, when I first realized exactly what was going on, what the implications were, and precisely what I'd be doing.
		In the room, this is a lab off the main hallway, and in the room is one of the reactors from one of the crafts and one of the amplifiers from one of the crafts also.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How big are these?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		The reactor, I would imagine, is about two feet, somewhere between 18 inches, two feet, somewhere in that general area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not really big, though?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, not large at all.
		Odd-looking thing.
		It has a bottom plate and then half of a sphere on top of it.
		The amplifier itself is about two feet in diameter, probably four feet long, cylindrical shaped, with something that would look like plates on the outside of it, black in color.
		You know, these are very unusual, and essentially hollow.
		Very unusual looking devices.
		This isn't actually the amplifier that I always catch myself calling it that.
		It's the emitter.
		It's the device that is moved on a pivot and it's where the gravity wave actually is or emanates from, quite similar to a horn on a microwave system.
		As it turns out, gravity waves behave a lot more like microwaves, at least the gravity waves that are being produced by this system do.
		So you have waveguides and things of that sort that you'd see in a microwave system.
		Those are the main components of the craft that were in the lab at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What does that suggest or tell us about the nature of gravity?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, you have to look and see what we really know about gravity.
		And, you know, we really, as it turns out, don't know anything about gravity.
		As people have said, we can certainly measure its forces or measure its effect on things.
		But really, to this date, there is no, and a lot of people don't know this, that there is truly no conclusive evidence at the present time that gravitational waves have ever been detected in a laboratory.
		Now, there have been several gravitational wave detectors built, and you can assume that they're detecting gravitational waves, but they can also be detecting many other energies or fluxes of energies from who knows where.
		So it's something we can hardly measure, something we certainly know the existence of, but we know very, very little about it.
		It's essentially a big hole, a black hole, if you will, in physics as we know it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, the physicists that I've talked to are not altogether certain whether it's a push or a pull.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think I'm pretty sure it's a pull.
		But in physics today, physics itself is so fluid, yet so many people, either true physicists or armchair physicists or scientists, whoever you run into, really stand their ground on theories, and yet most people tend to forget that these are just theories.
		These are not facts.
		This is a topic we know very, very little about.
		And as I said some time ago, or the prominent theory was that there were gravitons, alleged subatomic particles that actually accounted for the force of gravity.
		However, people that do bring that up really don't know much about that theory either, because there was never an actual particle called a graviton.
		The whole concept behind a graviton was that because I'm trying to think how to put this in layman's terms, they basically wanted to quantify gravity.
		Maybe I shouldn't get into this yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you're looking at this thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you see it, do you know what it is?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		what are we talking about the world the uh...
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		the very large man We're looking at the amplifier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right, that's right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, we'll save this technical discussion for later then.
		No, basically, I have no idea what I'm looking at.
		I had to be led through everything.
		The first demonstration that was presented to me was the actual operation of the reactor.
		Now, this in itself is nothing short of a miracle.
		We're dealing with something extremely small, maybe two foot square, maybe six inches high, just on outside dimensions.
		And the power output of something like this is equivalent to a little nuclear power plant.
		I mean, it's very impressive.
		Also, the fact that it's not producing any waste heat, which is a violation of one of the laws of thermodynamics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
unidentified		Bob, not to interrupt too much, but didn't you say that that reactor put out as much power as Hoover Dam?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I remember I recorded all the data I had about it, but off the top of my head now, I don't remember the output of the reactor put out.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But it was a huge amount of power coming out of essentially a very small place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did the demonstration actually entail?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, first was certainly not the electrical output of it, but it was showing me the gravitational field around the device.
		Now, the only reason I started going off on a tangent about gravity is because I guess my whole point was that we don't have a machine.
		There is nothing in existence that can make gravity.
		I've seen a lot of people, just lay people, telling me stories about how they'll watch a film on NASA and how the astronauts are training and they're in a little chamber and they're floating around in a weightless environment.
		They don't realize it's an airplane doing a crash dive.
		There is no machine that makes gravity, I mean, at all.
		Nobody has that.
unidentified		On Earth.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		On Earth, right.
		And here was a device that in operation was doing this.
		To do that, Barry told me, well, he started the reactor.
		When it was operating, after a short time, he told me to put my hand or attempt to touch the sphere on the top of the reactor.
		And as my hand got close to it, you can feel a force exactly like putting two light poles of a magnet together.
unidentified		Kind of that soft push.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a soft push, but what you're experiencing now is more of an anti-gravity field, which is something, you know, something entirely different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, that's extremely interesting, Bob, because as you may have seen, they've done experiments now in Sweden with incredible magnetic fields generated in a fairly conventional manner, and they have actually levitated frogs and plants and all kinds of strange little things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They've levitated.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Is this documented?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I haven't heard anything about it.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		With a magnetic field?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely, yes.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, certainly.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		i'm not just magnetic i wonder what Electromagnetic field?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An electromagnetic field, raw and gigantic, and they had a little chamber.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		A big superconducting setup that they're levitating a frog?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You got it.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		And the written up anywhere?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I wonder how this managed to pass one of the things.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		i'm glad to be delivering so much news to you tonight but obviously where can i I'm sorry, this second I can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was Finnish Scientists.
		It was carried on NBC, ABC, CBS.
		All the networks had it.
		They had the photographs of the frog floating there.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that's a tremendous discovery there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is.
		When you mentioned to me the tremendous gravitational field and the effect on your biological hand, it immediately flashed to that experiment in Finland.
		So there you are.
		Anyway, so you put it in the middle of the morning.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		One more question.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Have they levitated anything non-conductive, something with no water in it, like just a, well, I don't know what a magnetic or something like that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't think so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that it was plants, nuts, frogs, spiders.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It was all biological material?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Yes, but you said yourself you felt the gravity with your hand.
		Now, that's the biological effect.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, I don't want to stunt your story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just couldn't resist telling you that.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm glad you brought it up.
		That's actually very, very interesting to me.
		As time went on, we tossed a little golf ball at it, too.
		And it never did hit the sphere.
		It merely ricocheted off the field, which, again, was an impressive display.
		Indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A golf ball is not in any way conductive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has no moisture.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It has no minimal amounts aside from the fluid center golf balls.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They are fluid centers, aren't they?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But in either case, this was quite an impressive demonstration just in the fact that this is producing a gravitational omnidirectional gravitational field around the unit.
		It was later connected up to the emitter in the amplifier where the gravitational beam out of the emitter can be focused.
		This, again, was extremely impressive.
		The gravitational wave or waves coming out of the emitter were focused into a small point and produced a little black dot in the air, hovering in the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Now this is not to say it was a black hole, but what it was showing me was that it could bend light.
		Now the only thing that can bend light is gravity.
		That's right.
		A lot of people say, well, light can be bent, so on and so forth.
		Usually that's diffracted or refracted.
		But where you can only bend light is with gravitational waves.
		So to me, again, this was another impressive demonstration.
		but it really was a kind of a black hole well in the sense that it was absorbing at least in that way And you're also a black hole, a quantum singularity, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		but the series the same is that in other words you saw the blackness because of the intense focus of uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, essentially true.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Still, it was an extremely impressive demonstration to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		So basically those were the...
		He wasn't really specific on how long the craft was there.
		I was very elusive on many of the questions that I presented to him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You must have had a million questions by then.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I did, I did.
		And he would answer them peripherally.
		He wouldn't really get down to the meat of the question.
unidentified		But at that point, Barry had a higher security claims than you did, didn't he?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's probably true.
unidentified		That may have been the reason.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, who knows if he was told to do that or that was his own decision or what.
		But again, he was just basically filling me in with what they knew and what my job was going to be.
		And this was it.
		This was finding out how this subsystem of the craft operated in the craft, operated outside of the craft.
		Could this eventually be duplicated using another power source?
		Could this power source be duplicated itself without using exotic materials?
		And so on and so forth.
		Some time later, I got my only view inside the craft, which again was extremely exciting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no kidding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, can you describe what you saw in that craft?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I was led in again by what's his name?
		Not Barry, Dennis.
		And we walked up a small rollaway stairway that led into the craft.
		It was very cramped getting in the doorway.
		The hatch was removed.
		I really didn't pay attention to see how it was fashioned to it or if there were hinges or anything.
		A lot of people have asked me that, but it was, you know, you don't spend time looking at how a door was connected somewhere when there's a flying saucer in front of you.
		In either case, I went inside.
		Initially, you must bend over to get in.
		There is very little headroom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So whoever originally flew in this was small.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right, whatever flew in it was tiny.
unidentified		And if you notice, if you're looking at the model of the sport model there out near the equator of the disk, I mean, it literally comes to a point and it graduates as you go towards the center.
unidentified		So obviously the view is very low near the edge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And for the benefit of the audience, with Internet access, I've got a photograph of the sport model on my live studio cam right now.
unidentified		Okay, go ahead, Bob.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt.
		As you walk into the craft, first of all, I should address a few questions that people constantly ask me.
		One of them is certainly, well, how did you feel going into the craft?
		Wasn't it the most exciting thing in your life?
		And I know I've said this a thousand times before to many other people, but it was not, the feeling at that time was not of excitement.
		It was a very ominous feeling.
		Very much so.
		It was more of a feeling like it's actually I really can't describe it.
		It's difficult to put into words, but it was a very ominous feeling, more like, are you sure we should be here?
		But of course, after the fact, it was certainly exciting, but it was a very, very odd feeling because, and it was no pun intended, it was a very unearthly setting inside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's a perfect place to hook them and hang them up until we come back from the news.
		So everybody, relax.
		We'll be right back.
		All right, Bob Lazar and Gene Huffer, my guests.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast A.M. You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time, the night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
		Oh, it was beautiful, magical, and all the birds in the trees made me singing so happily.
		Oh, joyfully, oh, joyfully watching me.
		But then they send me away, teach me how to be sensible.
		Magical, always sensible, practical.
		But then they show me the company.
		Thank you.
		You're listening to Arc Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks, tonight and on-core presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, good morning.
		This show is obviously going to be a five-hour program, and it's going to be a collector's item.
		Believe me, a collector's item.
		So.
		You may have time.
unidentified		You can actually begin calling now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		as we go deeper and deeper and deeper into Mr. Lazar's experience at area S4.
		Music Art Bell now turns it back to Bob Lazar.
		And Bob, you're right.
		I'm sure you know all the questions that people would ask if I started picking up phone lines now.
		So what about being inside that craft?
		What do people generally ask and how do you respond?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, the overall description inside entering the craft is, like I said, certainly uncomfortable for an adult human being.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You realize that you're not in a place that was designed for humans.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And it certainly is different from anything that you're familiar with.
		And what I mean to say about that is everything is basically one color.
		Normally, any area you're surrounded in is always different textures, different colors, so on and so forth.
		The inside of the craft is essentially all a dull pewter aluminum color, very metallic looking.
		There are no sharp right angles anywhere, and the description I've given before is basically the craft looks like it was just injection molded, essentially like the model was.
		There are no seams anywhere.
		Everything inside the craft looks like it was fashioned out of wax, heated for a short time, and then cooled to where everything basically melted into what was next to it, what it was sitting on.
		That's about the best description I can give as to how the inside looked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seamless.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Seamless and very unusual.
		Again, no right angles anywhere.
		The structure of the craft, the skin from the outside was smooth.
		Inside, this is very difficult to describe, but if you can picture yourself inside a disc of a flying saucer shape, and you're inside looking at the wall surrounding you, there was an additional structure, kind of a secondary wall.
		There was kind of repetitive archways that looks like it was either for structural integrity or, as we later found out, something to do with the waveguide and the gravity amplifiers themselves.
		But if you have the box there you're looking at, you notice what I'm saying is kind of difficult.
		There's a little booklet that came in there that has a nice cutaway view of the craft, but it's very difficult to describe without drawing a picture or seeing something visual.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the lucky people on the Internet can see what I'm holding up.
		The others are going to have to Make do with your word pictures, or go out and get a copy of the tester model, or how else might people see?
		Is there something on your well, again, it would be your website, so it's just people with computers.
		So we've got to formulate word pictures for people without computers.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm not really good at that, but that's basically what the there are three levels to the craft.
		When you enter, you enter into the main level, and that's basically what you see.
		As far as what's on the main level, well, first of all, the dimension of the craft is about 52 feet in diameter, about 16 feet high.
		That's just the overall measurement.
		Now, back on the inside of the craft, what you'll see in the center of the craft is the reactor itself.
		Extending from the reactor up through the top of the craft is the waveguide.
		It kind of looks like a little chimney, more or less.
		Surrounding the reactor in the center of the craft are three seats.
		These seats all face one direction.
		Also near these three seats are the three gravity amplifiers themselves.
		They look like consoles, just solid rectangular objects.
		When I say consoles, I don't mean there's any buttons, lights, or anything of that sort.
		And in fact, there were no buttons, lights, switches, or wiring in the entire craft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Really.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		That's also quite an impressive feat.
unidentified		No levers, no buttons, no lights, no switches.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		However, I did not get to go in one part of the craft, so I really can't say what was there.
		But I do have a good idea as to what was.
		Now, this was all on the center level.
		Immediately underneath, there's a small breakaway part of the floor as you walk in to the craft over to the left.
		It's a collapsible hexagonal, very unique doorway.
		People have asked me, have you ever seen anything in any of these crafts, any of the technology that could be used today?
		Something simple.
		And that's certainly one of them.
		Aside from the high-tech gravitational propulsion system, so on and so forth, something very simple to understand and easy.
		And anyone that's taken a six-pack of beer or bottles or anything like that, you'll notice that if you push on the sides of the, you take all the bottles out, you push on the sides of the box, it all collapses flat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		And the floor itself was hexagonal in shape and made of little square hexagons like that, of thin metal, with a little notch cut out.
		So basically to operate it, you just stuck your hand in the notch and pushed and the entire thing collapsed flat and left a hole open.
		However, since you're when it's getting tangled with my words here trying to because there's so many other things going through my mind, when it's extended and the opening is closed off, it's a very strong structure because you're standing on the top of hexagons the metal is relatively thick even though it's a
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I absolutely do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, I understand how it derives the strength, yes.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		So yes, it's very easy to collapse one way, but that's one simple thing I thought would find uses somewhere somehow.
		Something that could be made right now.
		In fact, I've fashioned one out of thin metal.
		I have absolutely no use for it, but it's just one of those strange things.
		I've never seen anything like it, and it's certainly something that could be used in some sort of architecture somewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, the craft you were in had all of its generator, the amplifier, the first level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everything was intact.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Well, let me take that back.
		One of the amplifiers was removed on this craft.
		When you do collapse this little porthole, you can fit your body through, at least the upper part of it, and look underneath.
		This is the lower level of the craft.
		This is where the emitters, what I sometimes call the gravity amplifiers, hang down.
		These are three of the cylindrical-shaped black objects, two foot in diameter, four feet long, that actually emit gravitational waves from them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like a microwave horn.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		They are positioned directly underneath the larger rectangular gravity amplifiers on the first level and are in fact connected to them.
		The actual physical connection between the emitters and the subflooring above it, again, is something very interesting.
		It's a short piece of pipe.
		I'd say maybe 12 inches longer, maybe slightly, 12 inches long, maybe a little longer than that.
		But this mounting flexes in any direction, but it's a solid piece of pipe.
		It's something very, very unusual.
		And we see the same thing being used on the waveguide to the reactor from what we could see by applying an electric charge to different parts of this structure, it would bend quite easily.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's again something very difficult to describe without drawing it exactly how this operated.
		But it was not made of in a telescopic form where you'd see something like a car antenna where it would collapse down on each section would collapse down onto one another.
		It was a solid piece, if you can imagine just a solid piece of pipe and applying an electric charge to it and having the pipe bend but remain rigid after it had done so.
		Anyway, this compromised the or composed the focusing system for these three amplifiers.
		They received signals from other parts of the craft.
		The amplifiers would focus in on a certain point and this is basically how the amplifiers were aimed.
		And the craft had, again, it's kind of a lengthy explanation, but there were two different modes the craft we found would operate in.
		One is called Omicron and one is called Delta.
		The Omicron configuration was the standard operating mode of the craft and it's where it used one single amplifier to maintain its elevation in the sky.
		One of the other amplifiers was rotated 90 degrees and essentially pointed straight out ahead of the craft.
		So, with one amplifier working, it essentially produced an anti-gravitational pillar to stand on.
		With the amplifier that was rotated 90 degrees, instead of what we would normally think along the lines of propulsion, where a jet would essentially exhaust material,
		hot gases out the back, where we would normally think along the lines of a propulsive force, what the craft did was essentially create a distortion in front of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A distortion, now.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		A gravitational distortion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that like sort of creating a well, in effect?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		it would create a little distortion, a divot in time/space, if you want to call it that.
		A well is a good analogy, too, to where the craft would actually this is kind of the low performance mode, if you want to give it a name.
		but where the craft would actually continuously slide downhill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		A very awkward, strange mode of propulsion.
		I mean, we have nothing that would even really relate to something like that.
		But it's kind of backwards, if you see what I'm saying.
unidentified		I do.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		The other motor propulsion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, in an atmosphere, for example?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		In an atmosphere, just maneuvering around small objects.
unidentified		Probably our planet or moon, would you say?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I would imagine so, yeah.
		I don't think it would be used in space.
		By definition of this mode, it requires some force, some large amount of gravity to be acting on the craft.
		So you would have to be near some sort of gravitational body.
		So I would imagine as it was hovering around the ground, this is what would it be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, makes sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then there was another mode.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		The other mode is the delta configuration, and this is how it normally travels through space and makes large jumps.
		The craft flies with the belly facing the direction you want to go, not as you would normally see the craft in a science fiction movie.
		The gravity amplifiers are all brought up to power, and they're focused on a single point.
		This point now becomes an area of intense gravitational distortion, many, many times more than what we were talking about before.
		And this is where the true warp drive comes into effect.
		This is where you actually bend, you begin to distort space and time.
		And instead of the craft actually flying, you're basically distorting the fabric of space around the craft and move without actually traveling.
		You're not moving in a way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if I'm visualizing this correctly, it's kind of like the other mode, except far more intense, and you're constantly moving toward this warp or with this warp.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know which way to go.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, you actually become part of the other space.
		It's a pretty wild concept, but something that really isn't unknown to us.
		As I've stated before, to most people this sounds like wild science fiction.
		However, we know most of these things are possible.
		We know, for example, as I stated in that tape, that we can see stars that are behind the Sun.
		And the reason for that is the intense gravitational field of the Sun bends not just light, but it bends space around the Sun, and we can see some things behind it.
		We know that not just, we know space, gravity, and time are all interrelated.
		We know this for a fact.
		We know that around areas of intense gravitational fields, time essentially slows down.
		I mean, it's certainly been theorized that if one was to orbit a black hole, an area of tremendous gravitational distortion, a gravity will, for instance, that time would virtually stop.
		So with all these things interacting, this is how you can travel a great distance with essentially no time elapsing.
		First of all, you're bending space towards you.
		By doing that, you're actually slowing time.
		Not to say that this is a time machine.
		It's just a byproduct.
		Whenever you produce a gravitational field, whenever you're around an intense gravitational field, time slows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that's just bob did you discern all of this yourself after long examiner oh no this was Right.
		All right, and so, God, you've got...
		Then your job, I guess, is to go back to the gravity amplifier and the rest of it that they've already got dissembled and try and back-engineer the thing or try to make it work with materials that we have here on Earth.
		Is that correct?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Basically so.
		Well, basically is to start at the very beginning and look at the reactor and try and see how from ground level the device operates.
		And this is where, apparently, I came in to the project.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And that is where we must pause.
		Bottom of the hour.
		Bob Lazar and Gene Huffer, my guests.
		Don't move.
unidentified		You're listening to Arkbell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
		We have some quiet conversation.
		She's coming in for a bloody fight.
		The moon red wings reflect the stars that guide me toward salvation.
		I I stopped an old man along the way.
		So forgotten words for ancient families.
		He turned to me as if to say: Pretty boy, it's waiting there for you.
		Gonna take the life to take me away.
		music
		music
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell you what we're going to try to do.
		we're gonna try to get as much of the story on as we can in this next half hour and then we will open up the lines so Back now to Bob Lazar and Gene Huff.
		Gene, basically the silent one right now, sort of helping out as he can.
		let's see bob within the interest of time because you know that we could spend ten hours with this perhaps not before you fell asleep but uh...
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		well I detected, I started rambling and not saying anything, so hopefully this will help.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		We are about three hours past my bedtime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		I appreciate it.
		The nation appreciates it.
		This really is an incredible story.
		Now, briefly, you went to work, obviously, trying to back-engineer this.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How far did you get what'd you learn?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, not very.
		And I need to digress for a moment here.
		And this is where I learned one of the reasons why I was hired.
		Initially, our work started on the reactor.
		We figured that's the center point of everything, and this is where we should really concentrate our efforts.
		And apparently, that's what the people before me did, too.
		Apparently, there was an attempt to analyze the operation of one of these reactors, and I got to read the notes that the gentleman before me had left.
		There was a fatality, or actually three fatalities, if I remember, when they attempted to do this.
		For some reason, they attempted to get into the reactor while it was in operation under load, and it was never very clear in their notes as to why anyone decided to do that.
		However, again, in the interest of time, I'll cut this short.
		But they did attempt to do that.
		The reactor did explode, and the gentlemen were killed.
		I was to replace one of these people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did anybody at any point suggest that you go in?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
		No.
		I think this is something.
		I think they reached a point of frustration, couldn't get anywhere, and went on from there.
		Again, this didn't sound very sensible to me, but this was a story that was relayed to me, and just something I thought I'd pass along.
		Also, let me add one other point, too, that has really nothing to do with this, but we were also talking about static on the phone a few minutes ago.
		Coincidentally, earlier today, now I have no cordless phones in the house.
		I was on the phone with Jean and my neighbor comes to the door and tells me that she can hear my conversation on the phone on her cordless phone.
		I found that kind of hard to believe, so I picked up her cordless phone and listened and could hear everything fine on mine.
		I mean, that's very unusual, to say the least.
unidentified		He called me, and I could literally hear his neighbor talking on a cordless phone in her house from my house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What you need then is a sweep of your house.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Well, I called Set and Tell, and they should be here tomorrow, too.
		But, you know, what an odd coincidence that 10 years ago.
		I certainly haven't had any problems like this for a long time, but that is pretty unusual.
		Anyway, back to what we were talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Three who went down before you, three who died, so there you are.
		What do you do?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, basically followed in their footsteps up to that point.
		What we did find was that the reactor operated, at least the lower part of the reactor, the base plate, operated like a little cyclotron.
		And in fact, the first cyclotrons were almost exactly that size.
		They accelerated particles to a high speed in a circular fashion along this base plate.
		The particles were then diverted by electrical and magnetic fields up into a target area, which is what was inside the domed part of the reactor.
		These, and this is now where we get into some exotic material.
		One of the elements we identified in the reactor, we then found an element, a super heavy element, one that doesn't naturally occur on Earth and certainly one that we haven't synthesized.
		This element was identified as 115.
		Now normally the higher level elements, the ones that we have produced in accelerators, decay in a fairly short time.
		In this case, what we were seeing was a stable element, one that was not undergoing any radioactive decay, which is very unusual.
		However, again, this is something that science and chemists have already theorized, that there should be an island, essentially an island of stability for elements around the 114, 115, 116 area.
		However, we certainly haven't been able to produce anything that high up on the periodic chart, but apparently this is what we were observing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much of this element 115 was available?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, there were 223 grams in the craft, in the reactor.
unidentified		223 grams.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I heard a story, I think it may have been from John Lear, that, and this jumps us way ahead, but that you somehow got some of element 115 out of that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is That true?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I really don't want to comment on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I didn't think so.
		John didn't want to say much about it either.
		But that was a rumor.
		We'll let it stand as a rumor.
		All right.
		So, element 115, something that we don't have yet.
		I think we have progressed a little bit up the scale, but we're certainly not at 115.
		Where are we now?
		What is our?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		I believe the last isolated was 112.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		112.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		And most of the more recent work has been done in Darmstadt, Germany.
		In fact, I believe their plan to produce element 116 is coming up next.
		I think they plan on calcium or something.
		Do you remember that, Gene?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		I think they were going to fuse curium with calcium, and they were going to end up with element 116, which they then thought would decay in a chain of unknown nuclides and see where the island of stability actually settled.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But they are very close to attempting to pierce that island of stability and seeing what's going to happen.
		However, producing one or two atoms of it really isn't going to let them determine how the substance is going to react.
		But at least they're there.
		They're almost to the point now where they can begin to look at some of these exotic substances.
unidentified		Right.
		There are a lot of people waiting to see if they can perform any experiments or find this gravity A that Bob alludes to.
		But really when you read, and I'm certainly a lay person, when you read on these, for instance, the website for the lab for heavy ion research in Dormstadt, Germany, you can see that they actually detect these atoms when they make them.
		And getting an atom or two doesn't put them anywhere near having a quantity of it that you could hold in your hand and actually study for any macro scale type effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bob, how long were you then at S4 doing your work?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		It was from December of 88 to April of 89.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		December of 88 to April of 89.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		What went wrong?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When did the whole thing begin to go to sour and why?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		boy there's a long story um...
		Okay.
		This story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reader's Digest version.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a Reader's Digest version of this, which is typically longer than the entire story itself.
unidentified		Do you want me to tell it?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		If you've got a shorter version than I do, well, go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At what stage of work were you when it began to go bad?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, very early.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, go ahead, Gene, give it a try.
unidentified		Well, you know, Bob had been on an on-call basis, and right when he got to the point where he's told you about up to this point, they stopped calling him into work.
		And this was very frustrating.
		He wasn't a fun guy to be around.
		And what had happened is when he, as he told you before, he had to sign documents allowing them to monitor his phone and fax and computer and anything that came into his house over a phone line.
		And to make a long, sad story short, Bob's wife was having an affair, and they found out.
		And when they gave him his security clearance, they deemed him to be financially stable, emotionally stable, and just generally stable.
		And so now they knew that he was going to be having some emotional problems, and they stopped calling him.
		Ultimately, they heard his wife admit that she had had an affair to her mother over the phone, and she ultimately told Bob, and they called him in and Yanked a security clearance saying that they deemed him to be a sure candidate for emotional instability and that he could reapply again in six to nine months.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have never heard any of this before.
unidentified		You've never heard this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Yeah, that's the reason that he lost his clearance.
unidentified		It had nothing to do with him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, you had signed all these papers, Bob.
		What motivated you to go public?
		I mean, that's weird in itself.
		I mean, why did you go public?
		Surely you had to worry about your life.
		You had to worry about your career.
		And I don't know whether everybody knows, but you were virtually, the modern term is erased.
		Your educational records were erased.
		A lot of the work you did in New Mexico was erased, save for one little mistake.
		I think your name was and still is recorded in a phone book, isn't it?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		For the most part, for the most part, everything was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They missed a where was that, a phone book where?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		That was an old phone book in Los Alamos.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Los Alamos.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		However, certainly they couldn't erase the, as I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, the newspaper article at that time clearly stated on the front page of the local Los Alamos newspaper that I was a physicist working in Los Alamos Labs.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, they certainly couldn't go back and make that disappear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They made a lot disappear, didn't they?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		However, they did lie to begin with.
		As you know, George Knapp, for your listeners, at that point in time, was a news anchor for the CDS affiliate here in Las Vegas.
		Yes, and he had extensive correspondence with Los Alamos as well as Kirk Meyer, which was one of the subcontractors that Bob worked for.
		And they all denied.
		Kirk Meyer did say he was issued a Z number, which was a number required to be an employee and to get a paycheck.
		But none of them had said that they retained records that far back.
		And at this point in time, it was only five or six years earlier.
		It wasn't 10 years like it is now.
		And that they didn't retain any records at all.
		And George gave them numerous chances.
		He said, are you sure you have no record of Bob Bazar?
		He asked Kirk Meyer, are you sure you have no record of Bob Bazar?
		They denied, denied, denied.
		And then that's when Bob came up with the Los Alamos phone book with his name and station number in there.
		And then also he had a copy of the Los Alamos newspaper from 1982.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did they react to that?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're also talking about two people.
		When I was initially hired on, I was hired on via a headhunter, essentially, for Los Alamos.
		And I worked, like I said, the initial time you work for anyone in a secure job, you have that time before your clearance goes through.
		And that's when I worked for Kirkmeyer and then later became hired on directly at Los Alamos.
		However, both people either quote-unquote lost their records or just flatly denied the existence of me even working there.
unidentified		Well, what pushed you to go public?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		What pushed me to go public essentially was fear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fear of what?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Fear of death, fear of prosecution, fear of all together, and that was essentially what I was feeling at the time.
		You know, at that time, I had nothing other than what I had said to anybody.
		For the most part, if I suddenly disappeared off the face of the earth, nobody would have noticed.
		Well, not only would nobody would have noticed, I certainly have friends and family that would have missed me, but no one would have known exactly what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People disappear all the time.
unidentified		Right.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, especially in Las Vegas.
		So I at least wanted to get what was going on out in the open.
		And I believe it worked very well.
		It was essentially a pushback against all the force that was leaning on me.
		Where I thought if I just went on in a subdued fashion on television and maybe just said a little bit and just kind of gave a little shove back, they would lay off.
		And perhaps it was a big gamble, but it worked exactly the way I wanted it to.
unidentified		Also, at this point when he was trying to show those around him what was going on is when he took people like me and his wife and John Lear out to the BLM land outside of Area 51, and we actually saw one of the discs tested in the sky.
		Now, Bob did this after he told us the story, after he was in trouble and in fear for his life, he told those around him the story.
		And obviously, we were a little apprehensive when a friend said, you know, we thought he was just working in some project for the government.
		None of us really cared what he was doing.
		And, you know, so he wanted to prove that, not that we thought he was lying, but it's still an outrageous story to tell your wife and friends and say, oh, by the way, I'm working on flying saucers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, and John has told me the story of the trip up to Area 51, and there is video to support your claim as well.
unidentified		Right, right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Plenty of video.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The screenplay that you are now developing that is going to tell this whole story, Gene, when will this be manifested into something that we can go out and watch at the movies?
unidentified		Well, you know, I don't think Steven Stielberg could tell you that.
unidentified		The fact is, the first movie deal, literally the president of the studio came to meet Bob and said, I'm going to make this movie.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to help or not?
unidentified		Yeah, and five years later, that movie's still not on the screen.
		So I would not be so bold as to give a date.
		But these people do seem serious.
		And if they could wave a magic wand, they'd like to have it on the screen in the summer or fall of 1998.
		But, I mean, who knows?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the atmosphere for it now, the way the genre has been going, has got to be just right.
unidentified		Well, they say that if a mediocre movie like Men in Black, and we all had hoped Men in Black would be great, but it was kind of mediocre, it did 230 million just here in the United States, so I would say that's more than encouraging.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bob, are you going to act at all in the movie?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		But actually, I don't want them to make the movie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, you really haven't been.
unidentified		He's afraid they'll make it outrageous and won't stick to the storyline.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's probably right, by the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They will, you know.
unidentified		Well, you have to.
		When you sign a contract for a movie deal, you have to sign, you know, you have to sign away every right.
		I mean, they could turn it into anything they want.
		And so Bob kept it close to the vest and restricts what they can portray.
		They can't portray any live aliens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't know.
unidentified		By the time it's over, you'll have little guys going yack, yack, yank, yack, yank, yack, yak.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		Well, not with my name on it.
unidentified		Steven Tegal will be fighting them with a machine gun, probably.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it sure has been a pleasure doing this, and we sure did get a lot of good information out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I want to thank you both, and I'm sure you both want to go to bed.
unidentified		We do.
bob lazar ▲ ● ▼		You got that right.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Have a nice vacation, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night to both of you.
unidentified		Okay, thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's Bob Lazar and Gene Huff, and that's one rare interview.
		One rare interview.
		So if you want a copy of it, it's bound to be a collector's item.
		And if you can't get through now, because it's going to be jammed, keep trying all weekend long.
		Well, I'm off to Egypt and Rome and Greece and all that sort of thing.
		But not until after Dreamland on Sunday.
		See you then.

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